Yvonne Chaka Chaka HARDtalk

Welcome to Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.

Africa is a mosaic of different languages,

cultures and traditions but there are some shared African

passions and one of them is the music made by my

guest today, Yvonne Chaka Chaka, she was raised in poverty in Soweto

Her ability to sing gave her a route out.

Her songs, celebrating the priend strength of

black South Africa, became favourites of Nelson Mandela.

After 30 years of recording and touring,

she's known as the Princess of Africa.

How does she feel about the changes that she's seen?

Yvonne Chaka Chaka, welcome to HARDtalk.

You have been touring and recording for three decades.

Do you still have the same level of passion and excitement today that

And, when I started I was 19 years old.

I actually didn't think that in three years,

I would be there, when I started in 1985, because my mother never

I never thought there was longevity in the music industry.

But 31 years later, I look back and I say, this is what God

What God had printed for you?

Was it, do you think, a passport out of poverty?

Your ability to sing and the fact that your ability to sing and it

You would call it poverty, I didn't call it poverty

because you would go next door to your neighbour and ask for food

Were you as a kid encouraged by family, by your mum and others

You were living in Soweto at a time of great unrest, deep unhappiness,

of course, amongst the black South African population

As a young girl, I have always known there were atrocities in my country.

Because when my father died, the white government took the house

She was a single black mother and she wasn't allowed

to have the house and my mother's madam, the woman my mother worked

for, fought tooth and nail for us to get back the house

because we ended up living in her back yard.

And it was just terrible, because every time my mother

would take her kids to school, which was across the road and we had

to commute at 6.00 in the morning with my two elder sisters,

back to Soweto, to school, and come back the in evening

and what was so hurtful was every day we were come back from school,

the white boys would take the catapults and throw stones at us

and open the dogs or set the dogs on us.

I have three dog bites on my body today.

You were not allowed to report that, because you were black.

What I find so remarkable, as you tell these stories

of your childhood is the fact that you did find what I called

in the introduction, that route out and it seems to me,

the odds must have been so stacked against you, given that it was

Given that the music industry, the record companies,

the radio stations, they are all run by white people for white people

and you as a black girl, with your beautiful voice,

you got spotted and you became a recording star.

What was funny, I was spotted by a white man.

A white man put his money, Phil Hollis, and an Afrikaner,

He wrote I'm in Love with a DJ with the help of a black man.

With the help of another man, he wrote my music.

I went to the SABC, by mistake by the way.

The South African broadcasting company.

I had just completed my metric and I was looking for a job

because mum could not afford to take me to university.

I stumbled, as I was supposed to be going to look for a bursary

and stumbled and went to the SABC, met the guy, who knew somebody else.

Took me to this place - in fact they were not taking me

to tell the truth, they were taking the lady who was with me,

to the place and the guy liked me, gave me the money

This sounds like the strangest sort of question -

I would love to know, when you had that first meeting with...

With Phil and you wanted to persuade him you could sing.

Were you a black girl who had the confidence to go into an office

with a white man and open your lungs and sing a song.

He comes out of the boardroom with a lady and he says, "OK, you go

and sit in the about boardroom, young lady, come."

I go into the boardroom and he says "Can you sing?"

And I'm looking at my tummy and saying, "I have to go,

I started to sing # When I find myself in times of trouble,

No, he gave me four paper rands, it was paper money.

Gave me the tape of I'm In Love with a DJ, gave me

the words and he says - "Here, go learn the song,

come back on Monday I'm going to make awe star."

He was basically giving you a dollar or so.

I looked at the white man and said "Thank you very much,

I love the story, but in a sense, everything you were seeing at home

and what was happening to your family and Soweto was under

apartheid was so different from the experience you then had,

working with white people in the music industry and then

Was there any part of you that felt it was odd, to be,

sort of collaborating, if you like, with these successful white people,

At the record company where I was working,

We had a lot of black artists that the white men managed.

There were quite a few white artists during the time but it was natural

to be there at that particular time and the fact that the man put money

For people who don't know your music, there will be some

around the world not in Africa, but some around the world who don't

Let's just have a look at a first clip.

Now this is you singing one of your songs, Africa cries.

# Wishing for somewhere to play

# They need a home where they belong

# Now watching the people # There's no-one who cares

# They're looking for something to eat

# Oh, where will they go # Oh, where will they go #

Is it true that when you recorded that,

I believe in the late '80s, that the South African broadcasting

corporation would not actually play it?

It is Africa is Crying for the Children.

We wrote the song with and right at the end, there is a section

and they would never play the song, it was never played.

Exactly, at the time it was not allowed.

You couldn't sing that song in public.

In a sense, your songs weren't overtly political,

the lyrics weren't deeply politicised but I'm getting

the sense you were out there to show black South African pride

and strength through your music, but you were fearful, too.

I mean there is one extraordinary story about how Nelson Mandela

in Robin island was able to listen to your music a and he loved it

and he sent the message via Winnie that he was a fan of yours.

She gave you a note that was written by Nelson.

Winnie is one of my favourite, favourite persons.

She came with a note that had been written.

I think it was Christmas, "Yvonne Chaka Chaka from your father

Because why would I have a note from this man.

And in fact my mother was more upset than anybody.

She said, "The police will kill us if you -

No, tore the letter, I had to chew the letter.

You ate the letter from Nelson Mandela?

Today I look back and I would be saying I would be having lots

I don't think you would, I think you would have kept it

I would have kept it and auctioned it.

I suppose what I'm getting at is, you know, you had a very

By the late '80s and in the last years of apartheid you were a famous

singer and you were not only travel through South Africa,

You had, I suppose, a platform that could have allowed you to

become very political but you sort of didn't.

I think political, it is relative, if you can say.

Political by maybe sitting in the office, otherwise

I guess my music, everything that I do is political.

Because, I talk about the things that I see.

I talk about the things that affect my people.

I talk about the things that affect me as well.

It's either you are - it is like Aids, you are either

You can't be sitting on the fence and you have to articulate

You have seen an enormous amount of change in Africa, and you,

as I said, you travelled through the continent.

I remember the story about you getting mobbed in Uganda

when you first went there, with thousands of people wanting

And you then decided, I think over years, to begin

to speak out, about what you were seeing in Africa.

Not least governance issues, and the fact that so many African

countries, so very youthful populations had leaders who had been

around for not just decades but many decades.

That seems to be something that you worry about.

I really do worry, Steve, you know, I'm 51 today.

Today you go into this beautiful continent called Africa

and it is still called a developing space.

How so, when there's so many minerals, when there is so much

and you find us going into the first world with a begging bowl.

Africa is not the dark continent everybody perceives it to be,

Africa needs great leaders and we do have great leaders by the way.

We just need the political will and we need young leaders

You know we need young leaders to shape the Africa they want.

I'm an African and that will never change.

I just wonder where, specifically, you see the problems.

I'm just mindful of what you said to the World Economic Forum meeting

in Cape Town in 2015, you said, you direct,

Our leaders don't want to move out of office.

Some of them are richer than their countries.

Presidents who stay in office for decades.

It is actually very sad that people will go to IMF.

People will go and get money for aid when some of the leaders are even

If we we say people should govern, let's make sure everybody has

Let's make sure the children have money to go to school.

Let's make sure there's medication in clinics.

Let's make sure that women don't walk hours going to get medication.

Let's make sure that people are not fighting for all these things

I don't think anybody is going to quarterly with those

sentiments but you very elegantly avoided my question.

It is quite important to know where you see the problems.

For example, you said in another interview, "It is time for Mr Mugabe

(Robert Mugabe) leader of Zimbabwe, to go home and write books.

I think you could say the same, you said about Mr Musveneni, too,

obviously the Ugandan leader, he could go and write

You got in trouble for those remarks.

That is in a way is what I'm interested in.

When you take the time and use the platform to name names,

some citizens of those countries get very angry with you

And when I say so, I don't say it because I'm rude or derogatory.

I say that because I do respect these leaders.

I respect them because, you know what, they gave us

Well, I understand that, but you also say it

because you think their longevity and the way they are running

their countries now is damaging the people's interests.

I say that because there is still a lot they can do for us.

They can write history and we can read about it, instead of seeing

so many Zimbabweans in England or in South Africa or in other

countries, where they could be going into their countries

Zimbabwe is one of the best countries, what Mr Mugabe give

was it give his people a good education, so they can build

I have looked at some of the social media reaction,

things you have said about Mr Mugabe in particular

and what some Zimbabweans and one can only presume they are loyalists

to Mr Mugabe himself what some say, "How dare she mouth off

about our problems when she is so, so not ready to be honest

and truthful about what's happening in South Africa today."

So here's your opportunity, how worried are you about

what is happening in your own,

We do have our own problems in South Africa.

As I said, I'm not a politician, but we live in these times.

ANC, PAC, Steve Bickle and all those people,

these are the people who fought for me to know myself that I am

a South African and walk tall today because you know what,

I have been given back my dignity but with that said,

there are still so many atrocities that are happening.

We talk of corruption and we talk of so many bad things that

are happening and it is important we get leaders who will not shy away

from that and who will stand up and say - things are wrong,

Well, it's very interest, the focus you put on leadership.

It is a great cue in way to introduce the second piece

of music I want people to see of yours and to listen to.

Let's look at this video you made for a song Amazing Man you made

which is a tribute to leadership, but obviously very much,

Clearly a tribute to Mandela and a tribute

to Africa, and in this case South Africa.

Do you believe that his successes and I'm thinking

about President Jacob Zuma above all others, have let down

It is not about the legacy of Mandela, it's about what presidents

He did what he did and I think we as South Africans,

we were actually very lucky to have a man like Nelson Mandela.

Because if it wasn't for him, I'm sure South Africa would have

So, as I said in my song, he taught us to work together,

and tolerate each other and appreciate each other

as South Africans and then came Thabo Mbeki, it was time for work

As you know, the point is, Jacob Zuma you know

Some personal scandal, some about the way he ran his government

A whole host of the heroes from the liberation struggle

from Desmond Tutu to Ahmed Cathrada have demanded his resignation.

You are one of South Africa's most prominent artists today.

Do you believe it's time for him to go?

Well, as I said, I'm not a card-carrying member of the ANC

It will be those in office who will ask Mr Zuma to resign.

I don't think I have the right to ask him to resign but as I said,

if people want him to resign, if he is honest with himself,

he will stand up and say, "Yes, it's time for me to resign."

You have stood up for certain political causes.

campaign, it is students demanning an end to the rise in tuition fees

It is led to unrest, it's led to riots, do

you believe that, again, on these specific issues,

the people of your country are being betrayed

Not only the people, even our children,

I'm sure the children are able to be given a chance to learn.

a chance to have a decolumnised education.

They should be able to be given education that can

And we as the people, the government and the corporations

have not done much to help our children and we should not sit down

and fold our arms and say everything is OK, when things are not OK.

In 1976, I was only 11 years old when our brothers were trying

Those children are my children and are trying

If those children's parents, who are working in the universities,

if the children themselves can fight for those children to be able to go

This is victory, we have to support them.

That, in a sense, is a political campaign that you are involved with,

particularly for youth and for the children.

You have taken on a lot of cultural campaigns,

too, sometimes in areas where one wouldn't necessarily expect a pop

For example, I'm thinking of the loud voice you have given

to supporting the distribution of tampons

all schoolgirls in South Africa have access to a lockable toilet.

Because, as you've explained, for so many adolescent girls

it is impossible to go to school when they are menstruating.

What pushes you into these areas, which for some South Africans

are probably quite sensitive territory?

"If I did not have a mother who was very strong..."

My mother was not that educated but I look back today as a mother

because my mother never prostituted us."

She never said, "There is no father in the house,

go find a Steve, go find a Peter and get some money."

She guarded us, she protected us and I say she is my hero.

Today I walk tall as a woman who, who did not, who was not prostituted

And I look at these young children and all over Africa you find more

girls not going to school because they do not have these

tampons or pads and they miss schools and as a matter

They then stay away from school and they become mothers,

at an early age and that should not be accepted.

There are all sorts of gender issues you've taken on,

not least one that is quite close to home.

You have said quite openly that your husband comes

from a people where multiple wives is a perfectly acceptable practice.

And you have said, "I've told him, if he wants multiple wives,

go ahead but it won't be with me because I'm leaving."

When you make that kind of personal/public stand,

what kind of a reaction do you get in South Africa?

Well, I'm a liberal, I'm a free person.

My husband married me knowing that I'm Yvonne and I married him knowing

I respect culture, but, you know what, if he chose me,

it's he for me and I'm her for he and that's it.

It can't be both ways, you can't have your cake

Final question, how much has South Africa changed

while you have been recording and performing

South Africa has changed drastically for the good as well.

I can say today, with all the problems that we have,

more people have got houses, more people have got streets that

Yes, the whole world is crying there is no water.

More people have got sanitation today and I can say

there are still problems but what I would urge my

Government and ask them is to say, let's go back it the drawing board.

fighting for all the servics they need.

We say people shall govern, let them govern.

We have put you there in power and make sure you lead us with love

and respect and we'll keep on voting for you.

Yvonne Chaka Chaka, we have to end it there.

Thank you very much, it wasn't HARDtalk,

Thankfully Storm Angus is well on its way towards Scandinavia,

having had its moment in the spotlight.

But whilst it was around, boy, did we know about it