Qubad Talabani, deputy prime minister, Kurdistan Regional Government HARDtalk


Qubad Talabani, deputy prime minister, Kurdistan Regional Government

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Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur. Don't be misled by the

:00:11.:00:17.

battle currently raging in the Iraqi city of Mosul, where Kurdish forces,

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the Iraqi army and actors from outside, like the US and Iran, all

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seem united in their desire to vanquish so-called Islamic State.

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The unity is skin deep. Today my focus is on Iraq's Kurds. There in

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internal divisions and strategic ambitions. My guest is the Deputy

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Prime Minister of the Kurdish region, Qubad Talabani. Is Kurdish

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independence and inflammatory illusion?

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Thank you, Stephen. Let's start by reflecting on what is happening in

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Mosul. There we see Peshmerga Kurdish forces working with others

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to try and liberate the city from the control of so-called Islamic

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State, it makes the Kurds looked like a coherent, united force. But

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you're not, are you? We're united on the battlefront and we've been

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united throughout this conflict against ISIS. We've been able to,

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with Iraq and with the support of the international co- elation, not

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just defend the boundaries of Kurdistan, but make significant

:01:52.:01:56.

inroads into damaging this group and forcing them back and actually being

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very successful in the task that was given to us in the operation to

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liberate Mosul. But back home, if I can put it that way, far from the

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frontlines there are internal divisions, there's poor governance,

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in a sense there is chaos. There are divisions and there's political

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rivalry and political rivalry is at times healthy, at times it's an

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obstacle to some of the reforms that we are trying to take in our

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government. I wouldn't define it as chaos, but I think that there are

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genuine questions being asked by the political parties of each other

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regarding the current state of affairs of Kurdistan and its future.

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Genuine questions is good because I've got plenty of genuine

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questions. Let's start by looking at the agenda that your forces have

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when they go into battle against Islamic State in the so-called

:02:51.:02:54.

caliphate, which obviously runs across a swathe of Northern Iraq. It

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seems to me looking at the words of your commanders on the ground that

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they believe when they" Liberate" territory, they're going to keep it

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for the Kurdish region. Is that the way you see it, is that the way it

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should be? We have an agreement, a trilateral agreement between Iraq,

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the Kurdistan and the United States that areas that we liberate after

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the beginning of operations to liberate Mosul will be handed back

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to the Iraqi authorities, the Mosul authorities. But Kurdish areas that

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have been liberated from Mosul are Kurdish areas and the Kurdish

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security forces will administrate those areas. That statement within

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30 seconds completely confused me, on the one hand you said you will

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hand them over to the forces of the national Iraqi government and in the

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next breath you say some of them you're going to keep for yourself. I

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tell you what your president Masoud Barzani says, these areas were

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liberated by the blood of our martyrs and our wounded, it's not

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possible after all these sacrifices to return them to direct federal

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control. There's a vast swathe of territory here we're talking about

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and I don't think we can at it as one blanket piece of territory.

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There are areas that are clearly Kurdish, dominated by Kurdish

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populations, Kurdish populations that have historically suffered

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horrendous abuses by the former Iraqi government and then recent

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genocide carried out by ISIS. These areas that are predominantly Kurdish

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that fall within the boundaries of Kurdistan are well within the

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authority of the Kurdistan and to secure these areas. But some of them

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with respect are only Kurdish because it's quite clear from

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evidence, tumour lights watch have presented and Amnesty International

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and other independent observers, certain towns and these villages

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that your forces, Peshmerga forces, have cleared out the Sunni Arab

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population and we know from satellite imagery that in certain

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cases they have used bulldozers to raze villages to the ground. We are

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not in the land grabbing business. What is that about? We are about

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defending Kurdistan from the most stream terrorist group that has set

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foot in Iraq, that has caused immeasurable damage to the people of

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the country, to Arabs in the country, to sunnies in particular,

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to Kurds and the Yazidis, Christians and other members of the communities

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of Iraq. The Kurdish forces are in charge of protecting the Kurdistan

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in first and foremost. Some of the accusations levied against us we

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have responded to. I would like you to respond directly, Donatella

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Rivera, Amnesty International senior prices were sponsored by the said

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the forced displacement of civilians and the destruction of homes and

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property without military justification by Peshmerga forces

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may amount to war crimes. Well, I can't comment on that. You're the

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Deputy Prime Minister of the regional government. I can't comment

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on an allegation like that because it's an allegation. Our commanders

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on the ground haven't seen it like that. We've discussed this with

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Amnesty International, we've issued a response to Amnesty International

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and I would point you to that response. I don't know if you've

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been to villages, there is one that was taken while Peshmerga forces

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from IS, allegedly a place where abuses were rice and homes were

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destroyed by the dozen. I think that this... To say at this point that

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the Kurds here are the aggressors against ISIS, that the Kurds...

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That's not what I'm saying and you know it. That the Kurds are unfair

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against ices or heaven forbid violating any kind of code of

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conflict. This is no judgement on ISIS. -- against ISIS. It's about

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your government. It's not about the current Mosul operation, there are

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issues around Kirkuk, the question the international community is

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asking is what is the ambition of the Kurdish regional government? Are

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their places that were previously settlements, villages inhabited by a

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mixed population, many residents would be Sunni Arab, are they now

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being ethnically cleansed by Kurdish Peshmerga forces that want to expand

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the reach of your region? First and foremost, these areas where battles

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have taken place have been cleared of civilians way be for bullets were

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fired. This isn't about forced displacement of people, this isn't

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about any kind of raising of villages -- way before. These are

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areas that were cleared of civilians either by choice that they left

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these areas, or because they may have been ISIS sympathisers.

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Remember, ISIS is not a foreign group. ISIS did not come from Mars,

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it wasn't concocted in some foreign land and then exported to Iraq. ISIS

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is Iraqi, ISIS was born in Iraq, ISIS as a large group of people

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within Iraq that supported its ideology, that fought alongside the

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foreign fighters to commit the crimes that they did -- has a large

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group. When the Kurdish forces, the Iraqi forces, the coalition forces

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are coming in to clear these areas, of course these people are going to

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flee. When they flee and there are buildings that are booby-trapped and

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buildings were snipers are holed out attacking our oncoming forces, we

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have to make a decision about how we treat those forces held up in those

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houses causing further terror to oncoming forces that are intending

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to liberate these areas. You've skirted round my basic question,

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what is the ambition, agenda of your government, the Kurdish regional

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government. Let me put to you another quote that gets beyond the

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issue of what's happening around Mosul to the big picture. On the

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20th of October, the Kurdish by Minister of your regional government

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said," As soon as Mosul is liberated we will meet with our partners in

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Baghdad and talk about our independence". Is that the backstop

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here, that you see the campaign in Mosul, the Peshmerga expansion of

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its activities, as part of a drive towards imminent independence? We

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have not been shy about talking to Iraq, talking to our partners in the

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West, about our aspirations and about the aspirations of our people

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who, by and large, want to be independent. I think that's a

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natural right of the Kurds. It's an historic rights of the Kurds and in

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fact it's an historic injustice that today the Kurds don't have a state

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of their own. But the fact that we are talking to Baghdad about this

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issue, the fact that we will negotiate any independence process

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with Baghdad, should allay the fears of any countries nearby or far away

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that may be concerned about the potential eventuality. Interesting,

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you use an elegant politician's device there of saying two different

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things. One you said talk to Baghdad and then you talked about a

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negotiation. It's a process. It's a process. It's not a declaration.

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They will not be a unilateral declaration. Your language is

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different from some around the president of the KRG, the regional

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government. Let me give you this one. Iraq is over, said Mr Hiromi, a

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close adviser to President Barzani, statehood is now the only solution.

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That's what he said, that's not a negotiation, a declaration you of

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your perception of fact. That's an opinion. Is it your opinion? My

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opinion is Iraq has failed as a state, it has failed to govern, it

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has failed to be a fair governor for all. Iraq has failed when one third

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of the country is in the hands of a terrorist organisation. Another

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major portion of the country has been excluded, its financial dues by

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the federal government. And today we have a situation in the country

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where polarisation is the norm. The situation in Iraq hasn't improved

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over the years. I'm struggling to see where there's a negotiation,

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your message, not quite as clear-cut as others, including President

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Barzani, but your declaration seems to be bye-bye, we're on our way out,

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whatever you say, we're going. Is that it? Our independence will come

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through a dialogue with Baghdad. Baghdad doesn't want you to go, they

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say in the end the territorial integrity of our is paramount and

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you will not go. They haven't said that. What are they saying?

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Independence is a process and it starts with a discussion and that

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discussion has begun. Let me ask you about this referendum. President

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Barzani appeared to promise a referendum in 2014, it didn't

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happen, then he said they would have a referendum before the US goes to

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the polls in a presidential election, that's been and gone and

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still no referendum. He says now it will come as soon as Mosul has

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fallen. What do you say? The referendum is a vehicle to express

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the will of our people. It is not a decision that immediately after a

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referendum we will take down the Iraqi flag and raise the Kurdish one

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and declare independence, it's a process. When will the referendum

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happen, Deputy Prime Minister? It's confusing to me, when is it going to

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happen? A referendum costs money. Kurdistan is facing an unprecedented

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fiscal and economic crisis right now. That's preposterous, you're

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saying you're ready for it, it's the only solution. Your putting words in

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my mouth. Then you're saying you're... Your putting words into my

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mouth here. I'm saying one thing and you're saying another. I'm saying

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that the independence is an aspiration of our people. There's a

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genuine consensus across our population that Kurds by and large

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want to be independent. So that's a process, the process starts with a

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dialogue, this process starts with negotiations, the process has at its

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core a referendum. But there are many key elements may need to work

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out with Baghdad. Overflight rights, banking, borders, passports, all

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kinds of things. It's not going to be a cut and shut job into meetings

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and we from declaring independence... What is your idea of

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a timeframe? My idea of a timeframe is burst of all we need to get our

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own house in order in Kurdistan, we need to sort out the displaced

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people and we are at war. We have got 3000-4000 capital investment

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projects that have stalled because of the fiscal situation in

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Kurdistan. So right now our government's priority is to get its

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house in order, Howard Government's priority now is to enact serious

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reforms that will fix our economy, get people on the right track,

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bite-size our government, get the private sector thriving and then, of

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course, the political track is one that runs parallel to the

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administrator of issues that we're facing.

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I don't want to put words in your mouth. Am I right in interpreting

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what you said as in essence saying there's no way we are ready for

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independence right now? We have to many problems, not least a

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collapsing economy? I think there will never be the perfect time to

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declare independence. I don't think anyone will ever give us

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independence on a silver plate. I think there is a struggle for an

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independence and I think that struggle has to run in parallel to

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our primary responsibilities, which is to cater for the citizens of

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Kurdistan. In this interview you have been frank about the scale of

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the problems. Recent EU said the existential threat facing Kurdistan

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today is the economy. Why is it in such a mess when over the past let's

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say ten years you have received tens of billions of dollars from the

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Iraqi government and indeed from direct oil sales as well, but all

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oil revenues? Tens of billions of dollars, and yet you are running the

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most terrible deficits and national debt, or let's a regional debt?

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Kurdistan was hit by multiple shocks. Our economy suffered

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significantly in 2014 when Baghdad cut our federal funding. June, July,

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August that year the wall with ISIS came. Subsequent to that was the

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influx of almost 2 million internally displaced peoples and

:15:57.:16:02.

refugees. And then parallel to that came a global crash of oil prices.

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Now, for better or for worse, in our case for worse, we are single

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commodity economy. So when that commodity crushes the way it it will

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have a massive impact on our fiscal situation. Yes, money came from

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Baghdad, it went to financing a massive public sector, we're not shy

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about saying that, we have an enormous public sector. You are

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massively overstaffed. We have a cumbersome bureaucracy that we are

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trying to streamline. You've got thousands of ghost employees who are

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receiving pay, but don't actually exist, including in the Peshmerga

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forces. Which is why we have started now a biometric registration

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programme that will biometric we register every wage earner in

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Kurdistan through fingerprint registration, Iris scans and facial

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recognition. This is an ambitious programme and it is intended to find

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those ghost employees, find the double dippers, who unlawfully

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receiving two or more salaries, and ultimately give us the answer to a

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simple question. Who are we paying, wide and to do what? Isn't the truth

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that there is the scale of what you call double dipping, boasts

:17:19.:17:21.

galleries, whatever, the scale of corruption and cronyism in Kurdistan

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is a reflection that for far too long the region has been run on a

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sort of tribal clan -based basis, without any real effort at true

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reform and modernisation? Our government has grown over the years,

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it has grown exponentially. Through that growth has come a lot of

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inefficiencies, bureaucracy, mismanagement and yes corruption. We

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are not saying that this is Switzerland and it is the model

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government. No. But we are brave enough to say we have shortcomings.

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This is sensitive for you, because you come from one of the two most

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prominent families in the Kurdish region, that have dominated for 40

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years. We are all complicit. The parties are complicit. The system is

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defunct and we are now sure that the shock to the system made us look

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inwards, that we didn't shy away from the responsibilities and we've

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launched a very ambitious programme and are modernising our ministry of

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finance, bringing in new technologies to manage customs

:18:30.:18:33.

revenues, we are revamping the tax administrations. We are changing the

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banking system and now biometric league registering 1.4 million wage

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earners. -- biometric league. We are working with the World Bank to

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complete overhaul electricity sector to bring down costs in levels of

:18:47.:18:52.

service to our citizens. At the same time we've got another programme

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with the World Bank to completely overhaul our safety net. So we've

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identified our problems. We've identified what needs to be done, we

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started on a track to do what we need to do, but we've done this by

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ourselves. We haven't had millions of dollars of foreign aid and

:19:09.:19:14.

assistance, like Baghdad has had, in terms of the millions of dollars

:19:15.:19:18.

that have been spent on democracy building, civil society building,

:19:19.:19:21.

institution building in Baghdad. We don't get any of that. None of the

:19:22.:19:25.

IMF assistance. We have paid the World Bank to help us reform

:19:26.:19:32.

Kurdistan. But, and here is the big but, you say you are heading in the

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right direction and me and my fellows in government are truly

:19:37.:19:39.

committed to cleaning up the stable, but listen to the words of a fellow

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party member of yours in the P UK, the former senior official both in

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the regional and national governments. Kurdistan, and he is

:19:50.:19:53.

talking about today's Kurdistan, is degenerating into warlordism and

:19:54.:20:00.

corrupt victims. He is a friend but he was a minister in Kurdistan. He

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was Prime Minister twice. There are many people today who say a lot of

:20:07.:20:10.

things, that criticise the system, that could have done more while they

:20:11.:20:14.

were in the system to fix the system. I'm not going to go back to

:20:15.:20:18.

yesterday. Your father would be one of them. I am not going back

:20:19.:20:22.

yesterday. I have a job today and that is to fix the system. Just a

:20:23.:20:30.

pickup on the point of the fear of falling into war. How great is the

:20:31.:20:40.

fear that we KDP and PUK conflicts could resume? One of the officers of

:20:41.:20:47.

the PUK was firebombed, someone was exiled out of Parliament because it

:20:48.:20:52.

wasn't like that he was an oppositionist. There is the feeling

:20:53.:20:55.

of a new hostility inside your region. There is no doubting that

:20:56.:21:00.

political tensions are high. But there is no fear of a return to

:21:01.:21:06.

conflict that plague us in the 90s. I issue about that? I am sure,

:21:07.:21:11.

because our citizens would accept that, society has moved on. The 90s

:21:12.:21:16.

was a very militarised system. The military is today still a powerful

:21:17.:21:20.

entity, and they are engaged in a very tough war against a brutal

:21:21.:21:26.

enemy, but our society today has moved on. Our society is now...

:21:27.:21:34.

There is deep political discourse, political dispute and

:21:35.:21:38.

finger-pointing, but I watched some parliamentary sessions here in the

:21:39.:21:42.

UK, 80 watched some parliamentary sessions in Australia and other much

:21:43.:21:47.

more developed democracies... But we don't have the recent history of the

:21:48.:21:51.

two main parties taking up arms against each other, which you have

:21:52.:21:55.

to worry about. We've seen civil strife in Kurdistan before and we

:21:56.:21:58.

could see it again. Which is why it's a complete red line for all

:21:59.:22:01.

parties, but more importantly the public that we serve. A final

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thought, taking you beyond the internal to the external. You know

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very well up whatever you said about the long-term process and

:22:10.:22:13.

negotiation towards independence, the US does not want to see an

:22:14.:22:17.

independent Kurdistan. Iran doesn't want to see an independent Kurdistan

:22:18.:22:22.

and you are increasingly reliant upon a cooperative relationship with

:22:23.:22:29.

Turkey and Mr Erdogan, which could turn on a sixpence, depending on

:22:30.:22:33.

what happens with Turkey. You are the mercy of outside forces and you

:22:34.:22:38.

always have been. Yes, we have been, we are the landlocked. We are in an

:22:39.:22:42.

interesting neighbourhood. But, at the same time, we are part of a

:22:43.:22:47.

country called Iraq must have any discussions for independence will

:22:48.:22:50.

start with the country of Iraq and when Kurdistan and Iraq reach an

:22:51.:22:54.

agreement on independence, then it is not for anyone else to be against

:22:55.:23:02.

it all for it. That might work in some sort of magical theory, it

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certainly doesn't work in practice and you know it. Iran for example is

:23:06.:23:11.

not going to stand by. We will see. What do you mean by that? You have

:23:12.:23:16.

to figure that... You put it this way, in an interesting

:23:17.:23:19.

neighbourhood. That neighbourhood isn't going to change and will make

:23:20.:23:23.

deeply interesting, one could say fragile, unstable. I'm not doubting

:23:24.:23:33.

that. But your -- it will affect your ability to deliver on what you

:23:34.:23:39.

have promised. Our first priority is to protect and service our citizens

:23:40.:23:43.

and their wishes. But the independence track is a process, it

:23:44.:23:47.

isn't something that will happen overnight. There won't be an

:23:48.:23:50.

overnight decision, there won't be a breaking news issue for the BBC to

:23:51.:23:57.

report. There will be a process and it's a way for the separation to be

:23:58.:24:02.

amicable. It has happened in these countries that have been at war

:24:03.:24:05.

before and it has happened in countries that have had a long

:24:06.:24:09.

history of internal strife. There is a chance for an amicable separation

:24:10.:24:15.

between Kurdistan and Iraq. We have to end fair, but thank you for being

:24:16.:24:18.

on HARDtalk. Thank you.

:24:19.:24:43.

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