14/12/2016 HARDtalk


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14/12/2016

Stephen Sackur talks to newsmakers and personalities from across the globe.


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online TV service in the UK by 2020. You are up today. Now, it is

:00:00.:00:00.

aardvark. Welcome to HARDtalk,

:00:00.:00:08.

with me, Zeinab Badawi. The people of South Sudan have known

:00:09.:00:10.

little peace for many decades, and independence in 2011 has brought

:00:11.:00:12.

them nothing but war, increasing poverty and

:00:13.:00:15.

starvation, and suffering. Tens of thousands have died,

:00:16.:00:20.

and more than 3 million have been forced to leave their homes

:00:21.:00:24.

in the past three years. The United Nations says,

:00:25.:00:28.

"The current spate of fighting amounts to ethnic cleansing,

:00:29.:00:30.

and could spiral into genocide." The main rebel group is headed

:00:31.:00:32.

by the former Vice President, My guest today is his wife,

:00:33.:00:37.

Angelina Teny, who is a senior How much responsibility do they bear

:00:38.:00:42.

for the suffering in South Sudan? The situation in

:00:43.:00:47.

South Sudan is dire. What are you hearing about what's

:00:48.:01:22.

going on on the ground? The humanitarian situation has

:01:23.:01:26.

reached a level of catastrophe. The war is escalating even further,

:01:27.:01:33.

and the economic situation, what we could say is it is no longer

:01:34.:01:41.

on a free fall, but rather it has So, in a nutshell, you can

:01:42.:01:45.

say that the situation for the normal citizen,

:01:46.:01:50.

for the person there, The United Nations humanitarian

:01:51.:01:53.

chief, Stephen O'Brien, says that 6 million people,

:01:54.:01:59.

that's half of the population, are 5 million are in

:02:00.:02:04.

danger of starvation. 3 million have been forced

:02:05.:02:11.

to leave their homes. A million refugees, 2 million

:02:12.:02:14.

internally displaced people. Who do you think is

:02:15.:02:18.

responsible for this? Well, I can say that we are

:02:19.:02:21.

responsible for ending it, and this We'll all come to that,

:02:22.:02:24.

about ending it, but who do I would say the way our president,

:02:25.:02:29.

President Salva, led the country has really led to this situation,

:02:30.:02:36.

because what had happened is that our country,

:02:37.:02:39.

just before starting, from 2011, was turned

:02:40.:02:42.

into a police state. So dissenting views

:02:43.:02:48.

are really not accepted. Then, when members of the ruling

:02:49.:02:55.

party, the SPLM, tried to start a dialogue within the party in order

:02:56.:03:04.

to recreate a vision and a direction for the country,

:03:05.:03:13.

the President did not welcome that. You claim President Salva Kiir

:03:14.:03:16.

of South Sudan, but I have to put it to you that your husband,

:03:17.:03:19.

Riek Machar, who is the main rebel leader, has been a significant

:03:20.:03:22.

player in South Sudan He's been a Vice President,

:03:23.:03:27.

on and off, for 15 years, and he has to share the blame

:03:28.:03:37.

for the situation that the people of South Sudan find

:03:38.:03:40.

themselves in today. Well, definitely I cannot say

:03:41.:03:45.

that he has been out of the system. He has been in the system

:03:46.:03:56.

in South Sudan, but what you have to know is that my chairman,

:03:57.:03:59.

when he decided to actually raise the concerns that our country

:04:00.:04:06.

was facing, that is what brought the fallout, and that is

:04:07.:04:08.

what actually led President Salva to introduce violence,

:04:09.:04:11.

in order to rest finally peaceful dialogues within the party

:04:12.:04:15.

and within the country. You're talking about the recent

:04:16.:04:17.

fallout that the two About that one, not just from 2013,

:04:18.:04:19.

because you know we've been engaged in trying to,

:04:20.:04:30.

during the interim period, really to ensure that

:04:31.:04:32.

the referendum succeeds. While we were doing that,

:04:33.:04:34.

President Salva was also He was elected, and your husband,

:04:35.:04:37.

Riek Machar, you were referring to the referendum in 2011 that

:04:38.:04:44.

brought independence to South Sudan, But let me just carry

:04:45.:04:46.

on my train of thought for you, which is that Riek Machar must share

:04:47.:04:53.

the burden of responsibility South Sudan analyst,

:04:54.:04:56.

former deputy defence minister Majak D'Agoot refers to the gun

:04:57.:05:03.

class in South Sudan, "Sectarian warlords,

:05:04.:05:06.

like Riek Machar, who have historically used violence,

:05:07.:05:09.

channelled through appeals to ethnic nationalism,

:05:10.:05:14.

to hijack the state Well, I would dispute that

:05:15.:05:16.

as an accurate statement, because also Majak, as you know,

:05:17.:05:20.

is another politician However, I want to establish

:05:21.:05:23.

the fact that my husband, ..has been on records all the time

:05:24.:05:32.

trying to correct the situation, trying to introduce institutional

:05:33.:05:43.

reforms, systems of governance that will ensure a democratic

:05:44.:05:49.

transformation, and this is actually what brings the fallout

:05:50.:05:54.

between the leaders. I am not here to say

:05:55.:05:57.

that there aren't many abundant criticism of

:05:58.:06:02.

President Salva Kiir's government. There are many, from

:06:03.:06:06.

the international community, But I am talking to you,

:06:07.:06:08.

as a senior member of the Sudan People's Liberation

:06:09.:06:13.

Movement-in-Opposition. If there are issues to put

:06:14.:06:17.

to the government of South Sudan, we on HARDtalk will do that

:06:18.:06:20.

when we talk to them. But if I may just continue

:06:21.:06:23.

with putting to you some of the criticisms that are made

:06:24.:06:26.

about your movement. So, you say that civilians

:06:27.:06:31.

are being killed on the basis of tribal affiliations,

:06:32.:06:34.

but there are reliable reports that rebel forces

:06:35.:06:40.

of your opposition movement, or affiliated with your

:06:41.:06:45.

movement, have also killed If you go back to the records,

:06:46.:06:47.

including even the UN report, you will find

:06:48.:06:55.

since when we officially established the SPLM-IO in April 2014,

:06:56.:06:57.

that those those incidences have, in one way or another,

:06:58.:07:03.

what ever that had happened before that we have investigated,

:07:04.:07:08.

and we have actually addressed, since that, our movement has

:07:09.:07:12.

not made it a policy, and therefore, you will not find

:07:13.:07:16.

that there are incidences actually attributed to us

:07:17.:07:19.

since we established organised. Human Rights Watch says in October

:07:20.:07:24.

2016, rebels claiming affiliation with Riek Machar ambushed a convoy

:07:25.:07:30.

of cars and trucks carrying civilians fleeing Yei,

:07:31.:07:33.

killing mostly Dinka. The Dinka, of course, are the tribe

:07:34.:07:37.

of President Salva Kiir - according to the CIA World Factbook,

:07:38.:07:40.

about 36% of South Then Nuer tribe, from which you

:07:41.:07:43.

and your husband hail, about 15%. I know the figures are disputed,

:07:44.:07:50.

that they are the most Anyway, the point is that Dinka

:07:51.:07:53.

were killed, mostly, An 11-year-old boy said, "They

:07:54.:07:56.

started to shoot, and I lay down. The rebels then burned the truck,

:07:57.:08:02.

killing dozens of occupants inside." Actually, my chairman has directed

:08:03.:08:08.

an investigation if these are people truly affiliated to us,

:08:09.:08:18.

because our people on the ground are under orders, with clear

:08:19.:08:23.

and specific instructions, that they are not fighting

:08:24.:08:28.

a war with anyone. Rather, they are resisting

:08:29.:08:33.

the onslaught from the government. So that incident that

:08:34.:08:35.

has been attributed by the Human Rights Watch,

:08:36.:08:38.

we have investigated. Our forces on that part

:08:39.:08:43.

of South Sudan have actually denied any responsibility,

:08:44.:08:48.

or being part of it. The United Nations Mission,

:08:49.:08:56.

UNMISS, in South Sudan, said in a very detailed report

:08:57.:09:03.

in 2014, "Pro-Riek Machar forces sacked the oil town

:09:04.:09:06.

of Bentiu in April 2014, killing hundreds of civilians,

:09:07.:09:09.

notably in the mosque, the hospital, Definitely, actually,

:09:10.:09:13.

the ICRC has done a report and we have a commission,

:09:14.:09:21.

and we have actually made the report public,

:09:22.:09:23.

and the people that were identified by the ICRC were

:09:24.:09:26.

brought to book by... The International Committee

:09:27.:09:28.

of the Red Cross, yes. I don't want to keep on doing

:09:29.:09:30.

that, but there are... You know, UNMISS, the United Nations

:09:31.:09:37.

mission, says there are reasonable grounds to believe that violations

:09:38.:09:39.

of international human rights and humanitarian law have been

:09:40.:09:42.

committed by both parties I would not deny absolutely to say

:09:43.:09:44.

nothing had happened, that I would say it is not a policy,

:09:45.:09:48.

and we are very determined to always, when something like that

:09:49.:09:52.

happens, it is addressed, it is investigated, and the culprits

:09:53.:09:55.

are actually brought to account. Yes, it is tragic, but we,

:09:56.:09:58.

as a responsible organisation, don't believe you should allow

:09:59.:10:11.

people who do that UNMISS, the UN, is urging both sides

:10:12.:10:13.

to control their forces. We have, because if you go

:10:14.:10:18.

back to the incidences of the Juba crisis on July 8th,

:10:19.:10:24.

you would find that the way the SPLM-in-Opposition

:10:25.:10:28.

conducted themselves, you would find civilians telling

:10:29.:10:34.

you that we have actually got directives and protections,

:10:35.:10:37.

and we have shown what to do and where to go, and so on,

:10:38.:10:41.

whereas after we'd withdrawn, the catastrophe that

:10:42.:10:44.

happened in Juba after that, well, everybody knows

:10:45.:10:48.

about it, the killings... You are talking about the active

:10:49.:10:53.

combat that broke out in July last year in the South Sudanese capital,

:10:54.:10:56.

Juba, between Salva Kiir But I have to say to you that

:10:57.:10:58.

you did not emerge without criticism Human Rights Watch again said,

:10:59.:11:04.

"Regardless of the intentions of Machar's forces,

:11:05.:11:09.

of going into civilian sites, the impact of the manoeuvre

:11:10.:11:12.

was to endanger the thousands of civilians who were sheltering

:11:13.:11:18.

in these UN protection sites, and that would constitute a war

:11:19.:11:21.

crime of using human shields." And they also said, "Any Dinka

:11:22.:11:24.

civilians who remained So you raised one example

:11:25.:11:26.

of what went on there in July, and I'm saying to you,

:11:27.:11:32.

again, that the forces of the SPLM-in-Opposition had

:11:33.:11:35.

not emerged unscathed. Given that our side was very close

:11:36.:11:38.

to the UN protection site, this is where the whole battle

:11:39.:11:46.

actually took place. So we had no way of withdrawing

:11:47.:11:50.

other than through that route, But what ever your intentions were,

:11:51.:11:53.

you endangered civilians. I think it is worth explaining that,

:11:54.:12:00.

as the conflict research American Alan Boswell,

:12:01.:12:03.

based in Kenya, writing a book about South Sudan,

:12:04.:12:07.

says," I think you have to different You have a fight between

:12:08.:12:10.

President Salva Kiir and Riek Machar's coalitions over

:12:11.:12:15.

who will be king, but there are a bunch of smaller groups

:12:16.:12:18.

in South Sudan who are waging war So we accept that there are a range

:12:19.:12:21.

of different perpetrators and unnamed militia groups

:12:22.:12:27.

and so one, but the fact does remain, and I ask you again,

:12:28.:12:31.

what do you say to the criticisms that forces of the Sudan People's

:12:32.:12:34.

Liberation Movement-in-Opposition have committed some of these

:12:35.:12:40.

atrocities against civilians - rape, looting, killing, violence,

:12:41.:12:45.

that you yourself had condemned? We are saying that, as a movement,

:12:46.:12:47.

we do not condone any of this. Even when we were negotiating

:12:48.:12:57.

the agreement, the agreement and the resolution of the conflict

:12:58.:13:01.

in the Republic of South Sudan, we stood very firm,

:13:02.:13:04.

and we are on record. We fought for the inclusion

:13:05.:13:08.

of transitional justice. Actually, we say justice

:13:09.:13:12.

and accountability. And this is because we feel

:13:13.:13:15.

that we must end impunity, and we must make people who actually

:13:16.:13:24.

commit crimes against other human Including your chairman,

:13:25.:13:26.

your husband? We call for it, we call for it

:13:27.:13:33.

because we feel that it is needed. It is what will end

:13:34.:13:36.

the situation in South sedan. It will end impunity,

:13:37.:13:39.

and we say it without exception. Just on this point of genocide,

:13:40.:13:42.

which is a very, very important one, because Adama Dieng,

:13:43.:13:50.

the UN Special Adviser on the Prevention of Genocide,

:13:51.:13:53.

said at the end of last year, after visiting South Sudan,

:13:54.:13:56.

"I was dismayed that what I saw confirmed my concern

:13:57.:13:59.

that there is a strong risk of violence escalating along ethnic

:14:00.:14:01.

lines with the potential Our thinking is not even looming,

:14:02.:14:03.

but rather in progress. Already the Obasanjo report,

:14:04.:14:20.

which is the report ..had already established

:14:21.:14:25.

that ethnic cleansing In the span of one week,

:14:26.:14:30.

over 20,000 people were killed just because they belonged

:14:31.:14:45.

to an ethnic group. This was done by men

:14:46.:14:46.

in uniform, by government. Well, that's your accusation,

:14:47.:14:49.

and I'm sure it will be looked at. Now, when you come to this situation

:14:50.:14:53.

today, it is even worse, It is in Southern Unity,

:14:54.:14:59.

it is in Central Equatoria, We have just walked

:15:00.:15:02.

from Juba, after July. And we have seen it with our own

:15:03.:15:07.

eyes, and it is a plan President Salva is on record

:15:08.:15:10.

saying that we will hand There are criticisms

:15:11.:15:14.

made about Salva Kiir, but I have to put it to you that

:15:15.:15:24.

you are parties to this conflict, and arguably, are fuelling a lot

:15:25.:15:33.

of the violence that For example, in September last

:15:34.:15:36.

year, your movement, the SPLM-in-Opposition,

:15:37.:15:38.

declared war on what it described as the "regime" in Juba,

:15:39.:15:40.

saying it wants to wage a popular armed resistance against

:15:41.:15:43.

the authoritarian and fascist regime of President Salva Kiir in order

:15:44.:15:47.

to bring peace, freedom, democracy and the rule

:15:48.:15:49.

of law in the country. Because there is already a war

:15:50.:15:53.

going on, because already the regime The evidence to that is that,

:15:54.:16:00.

unless you are telling us I have to say to you,

:16:01.:16:14.

but you know yourself, Angelina Teney, that there

:16:15.:16:18.

was widespread condemnation The US State Department's spokesman,

:16:19.:16:20.

John Kirby, 28 September, said, "The US government strongly condemns

:16:21.:16:24.

Riek Machar's statement." A joint statement by the troika

:16:25.:16:27.

powers, the EU, Norway and the US, as well as other governments also

:16:28.:16:32.

condemned calls by the opposition leaders for a renewal

:16:33.:16:35.

of armed conflict. "Further fighting won't solve

:16:36.:16:39.

South Sudan's pressing political It will only increase the suffering

:16:40.:16:42.

of South Sudan's people", they said. I can tell you that if you saw

:16:43.:16:48.

the communique that we issued during that meeting,

:16:49.:16:53.

it talks about a political process that is needed

:16:54.:16:55.

for the resuscitation That statement of the resistance

:16:56.:16:57.

was actually the last So it was an option for the people

:16:58.:17:03.

of South Sudan to continue, to be defended from the onslaught

:17:04.:17:09.

that is going on. So our declaration is actually

:17:10.:17:13.

for a political process. Look, that is not how

:17:14.:17:18.

it is being seen at all. The East African Group of Nations,

:17:19.:17:22.

known as EGAD, has said, on the 9th of December

:17:23.:17:27.

in a communique, "We call upon the SPLM-in-Opposition

:17:28.:17:31.

to renounce violence as a means of solving the problems

:17:32.:17:33.

of South Sudan." We say, tell the government in Juba

:17:34.:17:35.

to stop the offensive, the pursuit of people based

:17:36.:17:41.

on ethnic affiliation, We say that if you hold

:17:42.:17:44.

the government to account, because the government in Juba gets

:17:45.:17:51.

encouraged with this statement, In fact, they are the one

:17:52.:17:53.

on the offensive. Whatever the opposition

:17:54.:17:59.

is doing, it's basically You're saying you're resisting,

:18:00.:18:04.

but you use violence to resist? The other options are,

:18:05.:18:09.

you go to be a refugee, you go to be internally displaced,

:18:10.:18:16.

or you go to a UN protection camp, but if you find yourself,

:18:17.:18:22.

that there is a way you can fight back, these people will fight back,

:18:23.:18:25.

especially when there is no hope now, without any peace

:18:26.:18:30.

process in place. Of course, there was a deal

:18:31.:18:36.

in August 2015, known as "the agreement" for a resolution

:18:37.:18:47.

of the conflict in South Sudan. You think that there is still a way

:18:48.:18:49.

forward by resuscitating that? But there are also reports,

:18:50.:18:52.

as we had in October, that Riek Machar announced that that

:18:53.:18:57.

agreement was dead. We feel that it needs to be renewed

:18:58.:19:01.

so that it is resuscitated, so that the people of South Sudan

:19:02.:19:06.

are given a chance again to start. Remember, we did take risks

:19:07.:19:11.

and we did go to Juba Only even based on some of the UN

:19:12.:19:14.

reports, as you know, President Salva started to introduce

:19:15.:19:20.

violence, and we had to leave Now we are still committed

:19:21.:19:23.

to a political settlement. This political settlement,

:19:24.:19:29.

we believe that this agreement has It any needs to be revived,

:19:30.:19:31.

to be reviewed, so that we can also But really, you've been

:19:32.:19:38.

marginalised, you've been pushed to the sidelines,

:19:39.:19:47.

Riek Machar, the leader We've seen Taban Deng appointed

:19:48.:19:52.

as the new Vice President. The international community have

:19:53.:19:58.

lined up behind him, and President Salva Kiir,

:19:59.:20:02.

rightly or wrongly, is being seen as somebody that the international

:20:03.:20:04.

community can deal with. Festus Mogae, former

:20:05.:20:08.

president of Botswana, who chairs the joint monitoring

:20:09.:20:11.

and evaluation commission, has said, So you've been written

:20:12.:20:14.

out of the picture. The war hasn't stopped,

:20:15.:20:19.

but the international community has lined up a between Salva Kiir

:20:20.:20:25.

and his new deputy, Taban Deng, who is from the Nuer

:20:26.:20:28.

tribe, as you are. You've just spoken

:20:29.:20:30.

about a genocide looming. If that government was doing

:20:31.:20:32.

something that was good for the country, definitely

:20:33.:20:39.

there would be no reports talking So, in a nutshell, the peace

:20:40.:20:42.

agreement has collapsed. The government continues to pursue

:20:43.:20:47.

a scorched earth policy for targeting civilians,

:20:48.:20:54.

for targeting those that So if the international community

:20:55.:20:56.

believe, and President Salva Kiir believes, that by having Taban Deng

:20:57.:21:07.

as his deputy, replacing the person appointed by the government,

:21:08.:21:13.

will bring peace, we should have In December last year,

:21:14.:21:18.

President Salva Kiir announced Again, the international community

:21:19.:21:27.

have said they will support this national dialogue in any way

:21:28.:21:31.

that they can. Why don't you join this national

:21:32.:21:34.

dialogue and renounce violence? The national dialogue can never be

:21:35.:21:36.

a replacement for a peace process A national dialogue,

:21:37.:21:45.

you need a conducive environment where people can

:21:46.:21:49.

actually freely speak. Something that is absent

:21:50.:21:51.

now in South Sudan. For you to join a national dialogue,

:21:52.:21:55.

you first of all must create the environment whereby you have

:21:56.:22:00.

that space for everybody to be able Let's create that space

:22:01.:22:06.

by resuscitating the agreement, and once the agreement

:22:07.:22:13.

is resuscitated, we will have the environment,

:22:14.:22:14.

and the agreement now provides How can you do that when Riek Machar

:22:15.:22:16.

is in South Africa. Is he under house

:22:17.:22:21.

arrest in South Africa? The South Africans themselves have

:22:22.:22:25.

answered and said he's So why isn't he going around

:22:26.:22:30.

lobbying governments, Because I'm a member

:22:31.:22:33.

of the movement. Remember, I negotiated

:22:34.:22:37.

our security... Is he going to go back

:22:38.:22:39.

to South Sudan, not to Juba... Does he still think

:22:40.:22:45.

he's Vice President? He's not Vice President,

:22:46.:22:58.

because there's no transitional government of national

:22:59.:22:59.

unity in place. The government in

:23:00.:23:02.

Juba is the regime. Since the agreement has collapsed,

:23:03.:23:03.

that leaves you with a regime Finally, in the last few seconds,

:23:04.:23:06.

a senior African statesman, who is very aware of what is going

:23:07.:23:14.

on in South Sudan, has told me that South Sudan will know no peace

:23:15.:23:18.

until both Salva Kiir Because we, as in opposition,

:23:19.:23:21.

offer an alternative. We have a programme in place

:23:22.:23:34.

that we believe we actually can transform that country,

:23:35.:23:37.

and move it to the next level. We know that President Salva Kiir

:23:38.:23:41.

cannot do that, because he has been We even introduced, before

:23:42.:23:44.

the outbreak of the 2013 crisis, a process of national reconciliation

:23:45.:23:54.

that would allow the South Sudanese

:23:55.:24:01.