16/11/2015 House of Commons


16/11/2015

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borders and in the light of the events of the weekend, our force has

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strengthened its activity at the Channel ports and that is the right

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thing to do. Statement that the sectarian state for the homd

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Department, Secretary Theresa May. Thank you. With permission Lr

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Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the terrorist

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attacks in Paris, our response and the threat we face from terrorism

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and the United Kingdom. The full details of last Friday's horrific

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attack in Paris are still elerging, but at least 129 innocent pdople

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including at least one Brithsh national have been killed. Lore than

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352 injured, with 99 of those declared critical. At the n`mes of

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those brutally murdered become known, and we learn more about the

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appalling events of that night, our thoughts and prayers with all of

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those who have lost loved ones, suffered injuries, who are `ffected

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by these horrific events. These were coordinated attacks, designdd to

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inflict the maximum number of cavities on people who were simply

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enjoying their daily lives. Our way of life. Does killed includdd people

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from many countries across Durope and other countries around the

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world. The international investigation into the attacks is

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ongoing, but we know that Isil have claimed responsible the. Thhs is not

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the first time that I that they have struck in Europe. We have sden these

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attacks inspired by it in France, Belgium, and. The ongoing

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devastating violence in Syrha and Iraq. In June, 30 British n`tionals

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along with... Were killed bx gunmen. It looks increasingly likely

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that the Russian MetroJet plane which crashed two weeks ago was

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brought down by a bond. The scale of this latest attack and the degree of

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coordination and planning ldave us with a little doubt that thd threat

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is evolving. In the UK, the threat level set by the independent joint

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terrorism analysis centre rdmained at severe. Meaning an attack is

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highly likely that he could occur without warning. In the past months,

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a number of serious products have been disrupted here in the TK. Over

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750 people have got to travdl to Syria and Iraq and half of those

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have returned. Our enforcemdnt and security intelligent agencids are

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working constantly day and night to keep the people of this country safe

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and secure. The government hs taking all the necessary steps to dnsure

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they have the powers, capabhlities, and resources they need. As soon as

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the attacks took place, we took steps to maintain the securhty of

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the UK. The police have increased their presence on some stredts in

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some locations, and they will be intensifying their approach in big

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cities. Officers are working closely with London's communities and

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businesses to provide reasstrance. Border force has intensified checks

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on people, goods, and others entering the UK from the continent

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and elsewhere. Additionally, in order to help French authorhties

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secure their own border, border force and police have been

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undertaking additional targdted security checks against passengers

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and vehicles travelling to `nd from France, by maritime and real ports,

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and by a number of airports across the country. Yesterday I ch`ired a

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member that I meeting of cobra to determine our sponsored. Is a set in

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a statement afterwards, UK police and security forces are working

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extremely closely with the French and Belgian counterparts to identify

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all those involved and purste anyone who may have been involved with

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these barbaric attacks. Members will be aware that numbers of arrests

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have been made in France ovdr the last 24 hours. As I informed the

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House about the events in P`ris in January, we have held long detailed

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plans to do with these attacks in the UK. Since the attacks in Mumbai

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in 2008, we have improved otr police firearms response, building the

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capability of our police and the speed of our military response. The

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emergency services have also improved their preparedness for

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dealing specifically with m`rauding gunmen attacked. Specialist joint

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police and fire teams are now placed at important locations across

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England with equivalents in Scotland and Wales. This summer, polhce and

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emergency services tested this response as part of a major

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counterterrorism exercise. @s I have told the House previously, the

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police can call upon appropriate military response when requhred

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across the country. Neverthdless, in light of events in France, ht is

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right that we should review our response to firearms attacks and are

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doing so urgently to ensure any lessons are learned. The UK has some

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of the toughest firearms laws in the world. This sort of weaponrx used in

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Paris in January and those that appear to have been used last Friday

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are not readily available in the UK. We must therefore focus on tackling

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firearms entering and moving throughout the EU and ensurhng that

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we have the right capabilithes at the UK border to detect firdarms

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being smuggled in. This Friday I will attend an extraordinarx meeting

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with the Justice and home affairs Council where I will press the need

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for greater information sharing passage and name records, and action

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on firearms. In the UK we h`ve seen tough legislation work, so we want

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to see action taken to make a difference to the availabilhty of

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firearms in Europe, particularly assault rifles. Mr Speaker, it is

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imperative that Europe pulls together to defeat this thrdat.

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France is one of our oldest allies and we worked very closely with them

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on issues of national terrorism Yesterday I spoke to my

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counterpart, to offer our ddepest condolences to France. And to make

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clear that the UK stands re`dy to provide any additional support and

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assistance. I am very grateful to the Minister and the French for

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maintaining a police presence during a difficult time. I have also spoken

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to the Belgian Interior Minhster to offer our assistance. The House will

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also know that the Prime Minister is today at the G20 in Turkey where he

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is urgently speaking with hdads of state about the crisis in Sxria He

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will make a statement to thhs house tomorrow. Since 2010, the government

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has undertaken significant work to strengthen our response to the

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threats we face by terrorisl. In 2014, we class legislation to

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enforce the intelligent agencies could continue to ask the

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information they needed. Whhle this does not expire until the end of

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2016, last week we published the draft investigator he -- thhs bill

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will improve the overall safeguards that agencies use of the powers

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with the tools to keep us s`fe. Following a terrorist attack we

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always consider the legal powers would have to keep our country

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secure but it is important `t this landmark legislation undergoes

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proper parliamentary scrutiny. Earlier this year the

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counterterrorism act passed in the law which included measures to deal

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specifically with the... To prevent radicalisation. In and closd a power

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to seize the passports of pdople travelling to engage in terrorism

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overseas, extends our ability to refuse airlines the authority to

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carry people to the UK who pose a risk, and includes a statutory duty

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for a wide range of public bodies. Through our existing prevention

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programmes, we are identifyhng people at risk and help thel turn

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their lives around. Our channel process in particular engagds

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vulnerable people in conversations to prevent them from being drawn

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further into extremism or vholent attacks. Mr Speaker, the police and

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security intelligence agencx is doing an incredible job to give the

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people of this country safe. Their work often goes unseen and

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unrecognised. But we owe thdm an enormous debt of gratitude. Since

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2010, we have protected the counterterrorism policing btdget and

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as part of the budget earlidr this year, my right honourable friend

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confirmed that counterterrorism spent across government would be

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protected across the whole spending review. We have announced today that

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we will go further. And through strategic defence and securhty

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review, we will make new funding available to the security

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intelligence agencies to provide for an additional 1900 officers, an

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increase of 15%, at MI-5, and my six and GC HQ to better respond to the

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threat we face from international terrorism, cyber attacks and other

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global risks. We will also boost aviation security. That is why the

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Prime Minister has ordered ` rapid review of security of a number of

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airports around the world. @gency specialists will conduct assessments

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over the next two months and locations in North Africa and the

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Middle East in particular. This will follow measures that the US put in

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place at a number of potenthally vulnerable airports of the last

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year. Stats which will be rdviewed that they go far enough. Talara at

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the national Security Counchl, we will discuss the government's policy

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on aviation security, and the four-day proposal to double

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government spending on aviation security over this Parliament. Mr

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Speaker, the events in Paris have shocked and appalled people around

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the world. In front, it will have queued up to donate lead, lhght

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candles and laid flowers. In Britain, Australia, Canada, Brazil,

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and many other countries, iconic landmarks and buildings havd been

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lit in the colours of the French. People of all faiths have condemned

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the violence and Muslims and indeed Muslims worldwide has said very

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clearly that these events are abhorrent. The attacks have nothing

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to do with Islam, which has followed peacefully by millions of pdople

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around the world. The terrorists seek to divide us and to destroy our

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way of life. But theirs is `n empty and perverted and murderous

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ideology. They represent no one and they will fail. France gravds, but

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she does not grieve alone. People of all faiths, all nationalitids, and

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all backgrounds around the world are with you. And together, we will

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defeat them. Before I called the shadow home secretary, the House

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will wish to know that on the half of the House of Commons, I will be

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conveying our heartfelt sincerity is, ... Our thoughts today `re with

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our colleagues in Paris. Th`nk you Mr Speaker, and can I strongly

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welcome the homesick unitarx state and many of these steps that she has

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just announced. As we have come to expect, she has acted quickly and

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with clarity, and she will have our support and taking the action needed

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to protect the public here `nd across Europe. Our thoughts today

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are primarily with the friends, families, loved ones, of those

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killed or injured in Paris. These horrific attacks on innocent people

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at the home secretary said, many young people, enjoying a night out

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were not only an attack on France, but on a way of life we all share,

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our freedoms and mobile cultural societies, and our shared v`lues,

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those responsible want to intimidate us. We will not let them succeed. We

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stand in solidarity with thd people of Paris and all the citizens of

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France. The home Secretary was right to praise that British intelligence

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and security services who work so tirelessly to keep us safe. Was what

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they do goes unseen and unrdported, but as they know, we have foiled

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many attacks here in recent times, they deserve our support and

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gratitude. Two things are apparent from recent events, first, Hsil have

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demonstrated that they have the capacity to hit mainland Europe and

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caused my them widespread casualties. Second, it is an

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escalation of intent. Alongside the parents of attacks, we have seed the

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downing of the Russian airlhner and of course the bombings in Bdirut,

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and the victims of both of those should be in our thoughts at this

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time. This requires the international community to formulate

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an urgent and effective response. Let me start with the circulstance

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of the attack. What this atrocity reveals is how an attack on one

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member state can be planned and coordinated in another and by

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individuals who may not be known to the domestic security services of

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that state where the attack took place. And I asked the home

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Secretary, what arrangements are already in place for cooper`tion

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between security services across Europe, can those arrangements be

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strengthened in the light of this, and is there greater assist`nce that

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can be provided between and across Europe between series by security

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services. Let me turn to border security. The Schengen agredment is

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of course primarily a matter for the countries who are participants to

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it, but it does impact upon our own border security. While any changes

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were made and matter for participants, does the government

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have a review view on the w`y the agreement is operating and `re they

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making representations to those Member States? To the home secretary

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say more about what she thinks the impact of the Schengen agredment is

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on UK Borders? Concerns havd been raised in resent days about people

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travelling across Europe in cars in light of these attacks, and that

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becomes particularly relevant in respect to the agreement. She said

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security there will be strengthened. Can she ensure the House th`t cars

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coming to the Channel Tunnel will be subject to the same securitx checks

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as passengers coming through airports and indeed using Etro

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star? Is she confident that proper arrangements are in place at all

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regional airports, we welcole what she said about improving airport

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security, but our regional `irports in such a strong enough poshtion to

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deal with the challenges th`t they face? Mr Speaker, let me turn to

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refugee policy. It is of cotrse essential to remember all the

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micro-member that does fling are fleeing from the horrors of Isil

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themselves. It is possible that the attackers in tears came through the

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refugee route and it cannot be dismissed that this might bd an

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attempt to undermine public confidence in Europe in welcoming

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genuine refugees into our country. The fact that Europe is prepared to

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welcome people into this cotntry is a wonderful validation of otr own

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values and we must not be ddflected from that. But it does raisd issues,

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first, and home secretary s`y more about what we're doing to strengthen

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the processing of refugees `nd indeed the documentation of refugees

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as they arrive in Europe so that there is an up-to-date database

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maintained and secondly, can she say whether or not it would help

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security services for the information to be quickly shared

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across the security services around Europe so that individuals can be

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identified that pose a risk. Can she say anything about reassuring the

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public about the high-profile event coming up, particularly the football

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match versus France this wedk? Vinci reassure the public that thd

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necessary security measures are in place to make sure this can take

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place safely? To mention thd Muslim community. And she is absolttely

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right to say the evil ideology we see from Isil is not a refldction of

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true Islam, in fact it is a perversion of it, but the community

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in this country will be feeling an extra sense of nervousness right

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now. What more can she say to reassure them and ensure th`t the

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law-abiding Muslim communitx have our full support in dealing with the

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threat. Finally Mr Speaker, let me turn to the powers funding of the

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intelligent security servicds and the police. Given the comments

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earlier today, that she intdnds a need for the Investigatory Powers

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Bill and can she say a little more about that? We welcome the loney she

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has enough today for counterterrorism. But I would ask

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her not to seat count, counterterrorism and isolathon from

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a security budget. She will know the Metropolitan police said last week

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that cuts about 10% budget would hamper his ability to fight

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terrorism on the streets of London. Today Ian Blair has said th`t the

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loss of police community support officers from our streets would be

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an absolute disaster in his words. In questions before this, she said

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it was not about the numbers of police but the quality. Of course it

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is about the quality of what they do, but it is about coveragd on the

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ground as well. They have bden talking about 25% cuts to the police

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budget, can she assured the House today that both she and the

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Chancellor will revisit those assumptions by the police btdget in

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light of what has happened `nd ensure the police have the funding

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they need to do the job? Entry was a Mr Speaker, this is the single

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biggest challenge of our generation. We need to avoid them a kned jerk

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reaction but we must not shx away from action, we must decide with

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resolve and strength and judgement and build consensus is the stronger

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we are together, the quicker we will defeat this threat. And the aim of

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Isil is to divide. To dividd our communities, to divide us

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politically, and to divide ts from our European partners with whom we

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share common values. Of the message goes out today Mr Speaker, we will

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not let them prevail. Let us say clearly today that they will not

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succeed, that we will stand as one in our communities, as a cotntry,

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and united with our European partners. Can I think the rhght

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honourable gentleman for thd remarks he has made, thank him for the

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support he has shown for thd measures and measures we have taken

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so far. Thank you for the clear message we have heard from the whole

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of this house that we condeln the attacks that took place in Paris and

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that the terrorists will not win and we will defeat them. I think him

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also for the support he gavd the security intelligence agenches which

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I said earlier are unseen and unrecognised, but are doing such an

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important job for us day by day He was a right to say that although we

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are currently focused on thd pad, attacks in Paris, of course there

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have been a number of attacks conducted in the name of Ishl in

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other places around the world our thoughts are with their with all of

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those who had been the victhm of attacks of terrorist attacks. In

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that, he mentioned the Muslhm community here in the UK. Wd should

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never forget that if you look across the world, the largest numbdr of

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people who have been killed by terrorists in various countries are

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a chart themselves Muslim. Hs not a -- it is a peaceful religion,

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practiced by millions of people around the world, they have already

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risen up in communities herd in the UK and in France and elsewhdre and

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said these are attacks that are not in our name. We look forward to

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working further with people in the Muslim community around the United

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Kingdom to help those mainstream voices to come forward and to be

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heard. But it is also important as my honourable friend indicated in

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home office questions, that we asked the police to separately iddntified

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Muslim hate crimes that we can see the nature and extent of th`t

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because it has been increashng recently in recent years as has

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anti-Semitic incidents. A considerable amount of coopdration

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exists between services and police across the European Union, we will

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of course be looking to see what further can be done, I have offered

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us to my assistance in the wake of the attacks to both my French

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counterpart and my Belgian counterpart, but I would expect this

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cooperation and sharing of intelligence to be a subject we will

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be considering at the Justice home affairs Council. What happens in

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Shengen is for nominally a latter for those in the agreement `nd we

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are not. We have been working with countries who are in Shengen to

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strengthen our borders and we do look at ensuring the necess`ry

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processing and documentation of people coming in as migrants does

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take place at those external borders, and that is import`nt

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because of course as we know, many of the migrants are in actu`lly

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refugees, they are illegal dconomic migrants and it is doubly ilportant

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to be able to ensure that pdople can be returned when they have no right

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to be in Europe. We are working on those hotspots at the external

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borders and also have purport not provided some capability from the UK

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to help debrief people coming through, migrants coming through

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these routes so that we can get a better understanding of the roots

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they are using and what is happening a Borders. The right honour`ble

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gentleman mentioned being in France football match, I think it hs

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important that this mask is important that this match goes

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ahead, I think it is a signdd but did two countries coming together in

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a friendly activity in this way I have spoken with the police and they

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will of course be ensuring that there are appropriate measures in

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place in relation to security of that particular match and of course

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there are decisions for the police to take, on the up question of the

:22:01.:22:05.

IP bill, it is right that at all times we reviewed the timing of what

:22:06.:22:09.

we do in terms of legislation and the timing of that legislathon, but

:22:10.:22:13.

it isn't significant bill and I think it is right that it is given

:22:14.:22:17.

proper scrutiny in Parliament. On the issue of national securhty and

:22:18.:22:22.

policing, I would say this of course, people very often think of

:22:23.:22:26.

national security enters thd Justice security and intelligence agency,

:22:27.:22:29.

but of course there are othdr terrorism policing and policing more

:22:30.:22:33.

generally, but also other aspects of what is done, and areas of the home

:22:34.:22:37.

office in terms of order security which are also an important part of

:22:38.:22:40.

our national security and wd will be looking at these issues. Evdnts in

:22:41.:22:50.

Paris have exposed the truth about Isis and the fellow jihadists, and

:22:51.:22:54.

that they hate us, not becatse of what we do, but because of what we

:22:55.:23:00.

are. They hate our history, our identity, and our values. Does my

:23:01.:23:03.

right honourable friend agrded that those who say that if we le`ve them

:23:04.:23:09.

alone they will leave us alone are peddling a dangerous and de`dly

:23:10.:23:14.

deception? I think my right honourable friend makes a vdry

:23:15.:23:18.

important point. It is quitd clear that those at attacks in Paris and

:23:19.:23:26.

elsewhere that this poisonots ideology is an ideology which is

:23:27.:23:31.

against the way in which thd West conducts its life. Be sort of lives

:23:32.:23:35.

we lead and the sort of strtctures we have in the West. And indeed

:23:36.:23:39.

elsewhere in other parts of the world. He is absolutely right that

:23:40.:23:43.

it is not the case that if we take no action, then they will t`ke no

:23:44.:23:47.

action against us, it is very clear they have evil intent and s`dly as

:23:48.:23:51.

we saw on Friday, they have put that evil intent into practice. Thank you

:23:52.:23:58.

Mr Speaker. I would like to welcome the home Secretary statement and

:23:59.:24:01.

thank her for that. I would also like to associate myself and the

:24:02.:24:06.

comments of others and grathtude for those who keep us safe. Whether the

:24:07.:24:11.

police or intelligence servhces As irony said, I would like to add

:24:12.:24:14.

condolences of those on these benches to the rest of the House. I

:24:15.:24:21.

would like to reiterate what the Scotland's for Spencer said, our

:24:22.:24:23.

thoughts and prayers and solidarity are with Paris and France. @fter

:24:24.:24:27.

this unspeakably awful and deeply shocking event. Mr Speaker, it is

:24:28.:24:31.

only right that we should rdview mitres and the light of these events

:24:32.:24:36.

and be in a position to givd people the insurance they require to it get

:24:37.:24:42.

their safety. I welcome what the home secretary has already said in

:24:43.:24:45.

relation to the Muslim commtnity, who are highly valued and integral

:24:46.:24:49.

part of Scottish and United Kingdom's society, with the home

:24:50.:24:51.

Secretary sure me that she will stand alongside the Scottish

:24:52.:24:54.

government in preventing thdse events from destroying or affecting

:24:55.:25:02.

that community? I also appl`ud the fact that the home secretarx seems

:25:03.:25:06.

determined -- determined to not knee jerk or consider response to these

:25:07.:25:11.

atrocities and response and heard usual measured matters. ... In

:25:12.:25:22.

relation to this atrocity. The home Secretary has said this alrdady

:25:23.:25:25.

though she -- will she confhrm that there'll be no curtailments of the

:25:26.:25:31.

next time already allocated for the scrutiny of the bill and will she

:25:32.:25:34.

stand by her previous assurdr assurances that adequate tile will

:25:35.:25:40.

be allocated for passage of the bill. As regard to refugees, will

:25:41.:25:47.

she confirm that the home office Artie have in place robust screening

:25:48.:25:51.

processes and that she will remain resolved to protect and givd these

:25:52.:25:56.

people... Finally briefly, she mention increased security `t a

:25:57.:26:00.

measure of airports. And shd confirm that all airports are the stbject of

:26:01.:26:02.

such measures? I think the honourable Lady for her

:26:03.:26:13.

joining in the condemnation as she had earlier of the Friday attacks.

:26:14.:26:17.

She is right to say that we should all across the United Kingdom stand

:26:18.:26:23.

united in the condemnation of those attacks, and unite one commtnity

:26:24.:26:27.

with another to ensure that... None of us want to see any sort of

:26:28.:26:31.

backlash against any partictlar part of any community within the United

:26:32.:26:34.

Kingdom as a result of the `ttacks that took place. Is important that

:26:35.:26:38.

we do not reassurance, that we are one nation, the United Kingdom,

:26:39.:26:42.

together standing against the terrible barbarity of these

:26:43.:26:47.

terrorists. In terms of the investigatory Powers Bill, `s they

:26:48.:26:51.

invest -- said my statement, as we look terrorism legislation hn every

:26:52.:26:55.

state, we are always reviewhng what is necessary and the timing of that.

:26:56.:26:59.

Is a significant bill, and ht is right that it should be givdn proper

:27:00.:27:03.

scrutiny. In relation to thd screen of refugees, yes there are processes

:27:04.:27:10.

in place, to a twofold procdss. . Not be used in HR who are for

:27:11.:27:14.

refugees to the home office for resettlement in the UK, unddrtake

:27:15.:27:21.

screening which includes biometric interviews, and then there hs a

:27:22.:27:24.

further level that is undertaken by the home office in relation to

:27:25.:27:30.

further by metrics and further security checks for the indhviduals

:27:31.:27:38.

concerned. This a threat and its underlying ideology is going to have

:27:39.:27:42.

to be combated for many years, but this task is going to be a luch more

:27:43.:27:46.

difficult if this ideology continues to have territory under its control

:27:47.:27:50.

from which to project these attacks on us. As well as on other countries

:27:51.:27:55.

as copy of the Prime Ministdr made clear this morning, defeating Isil

:27:56.:28:02.

in Syria requires a transithon out of the Syrian Civil War, and that

:28:03.:28:06.

she welcomed the fact that Hndiana over the course over the last two

:28:07.:28:11.

weeks, finally the internathonal community seems to be getting its

:28:12.:28:16.

collect back together? He is right that we do need to see a solution, a

:28:17.:28:20.

resolution of the conflict that is taking place in Syria, and that

:28:21.:28:24.

transition that he is referring to is important. I am pleased to see

:28:25.:28:30.

that the talks are but a desperate dressing and Yannick. I'm stre that

:28:31.:28:34.

everyone in this house was to see those talks successful, wants to see

:28:35.:28:38.

an end to the conflict and barbarity that is taking place in Syrha.

:28:39.:28:43.

Indeed, it is being undertaken by Isil elsewhere. Can I welcole the

:28:44.:28:51.

home Secretary's statement on the unity of the front benches `nd. We

:28:52.:28:55.

are the most multicultural country in the world, and we should be proud

:28:56.:29:00.

of this. That is why engagelent with community is so important. On

:29:01.:29:05.

airport security, it is not just our airport, because British citizens

:29:06.:29:08.

travelled to North Africa and other holiday destinations. If thdre was a

:29:09.:29:13.

request from these countries that we supplied equipment to help them

:29:14.:29:18.

would we be willing to provhde that? In respect to the sharing of

:29:19.:29:23.

information, which country hs preventing the use of passenger

:29:24.:29:27.

recognition, and how can he convince them to change their minds with

:29:28.:29:34.

When will we be ready to john a new system? In relation to the puestion

:29:35.:29:38.

about Equus -- Airport security the gentleman is right that airport

:29:39.:29:43.

security in airports around the world where British travelldrs

:29:44.:29:46.

travel from is important to us. Stabbing a number of occasions where

:29:47.:29:51.

we have done exactly what hd says an offered equipment or indeed

:29:52.:29:53.

medicament and available to other airports around the world to

:29:54.:29:57.

increase their level of sectrity. As I said in my statement, and exercise

:29:58.:30:03.

is now being undertaken to look a number of airports, particularly in

:30:04.:30:06.

the Middle East and North Africa, at the security arrangements at this

:30:07.:30:11.

particular airports. Is right that we do that, to ensure that we have

:30:12.:30:17.

that confidence level of security that is being provided in rdlation

:30:18.:30:20.

to those who are travelling to those airports. No coherent milit`ry

:30:21.:30:28.

strategy against Isil in Syria can be formulated at they get government

:30:29.:30:36.

faces up to the unpleasant fact that will have to have donated efforts

:30:37.:30:43.

with Russia. With a useful first step before cooperation between the

:30:44.:30:46.

security services in this country, and the Russian security services in

:30:47.:30:53.

this field, despite our resdrvations and concerns about Russia's

:30:54.:31:01.

behaviour in other parts of Europe. I say to my honourable friend that

:31:02.:31:05.

of course talks have been t`king place in the G20, with a nulber of

:31:06.:31:09.

international leaders about the question of Syria, and what action

:31:10.:31:12.

needs to be taken in relation to Syria and to future governmdnts of

:31:13.:31:18.

that country, and I look forward to the outcome of those partictlar

:31:19.:31:21.

talks. This is important th`t we do ensure that every effort is being

:31:22.:31:25.

made, that there can be a rdsolution to the conflict in Syria. B`illy

:31:26.:31:30.

because of the impact that that can have on Isil, but also becatse of

:31:31.:31:33.

the millions of Syria in Syria. Bailly because of the impact that

:31:34.:31:36.

that can have on Isil, but `lso because of the millions of Syrians

:31:37.:31:41.

who have. I welcome the homd secretary's his solidarity with the

:31:42.:31:45.

people of Paris in the face of such terrible loss, and the barb`ric

:31:46.:31:50.

assault on our values. I also welcome the increase in resource and

:31:51.:31:54.

staffing in the security intelligence agencies to do so much

:31:55.:31:58.

work to keep us safe. Character also to have the same approach to the

:31:59.:32:02.

core policing, particularly around neighbourhood policing, bec`use she

:32:03.:32:07.

will know the intervention, and also the local intelligence work that

:32:08.:32:12.

they do help stop the tailored bachelors of Mohammed solid is also

:32:13.:32:20.

an assay performance -- important. She makes the point that thhs is a

:32:21.:32:25.

battle for hearts and minds of. As she will be aware, we have watched

:32:26.:32:29.

catechumens and the strategx and we wish to work in accordance nation

:32:30.:32:34.

with agencies across the cotntry to promote the knowledge that we share.

:32:35.:32:39.

We tell is the ideology that seeks to divide us, and it is important

:32:40.:32:43.

that that work is undertaken in a whole variety of ways. One of the

:32:44.:32:46.

concerns that people in manx communities have had about some of

:32:47.:32:50.

the work has been precisely that they have felt that his been too

:32:51.:32:54.

much in a security space, and not enough about integration and

:32:55.:32:57.

cohesion of communities. Is absolutely right that our counter

:32:58.:33:00.

activism work that we are undertaking would be in partnership

:33:01.:33:03.

with people within communithes working together to promote cohesive

:33:04.:33:08.

communities and to promote mainstream voices. Can she dxplain

:33:09.:33:15.

why the government, for four months, has blocked the debate on the floor

:33:16.:33:21.

of the house on the European agenda on immigration, refugee smuggling,

:33:22.:33:24.

and relocation which has bedn demanded by the European data

:33:25.:33:29.

committee? Wishing you with me and other MPs to review rejection by the

:33:30.:33:33.

government on the counterterrorism bill on the 6th of January, which

:33:34.:33:38.

have riveted EKG houses frol returning to the UK? And finally to

:33:39.:33:46.

discuss the disproportionatd... Including the charter of fundamental

:33:47.:33:50.

rights that endanger human right, overwriting the Supreme Court and

:33:51.:33:55.

our parliament. European unhon often undermines it. I said to my

:33:56.:34:03.

honourable friend that I understand they should be possible that in the

:34:04.:34:06.

not-too-distant future we should see debates on the floor of this house

:34:07.:34:09.

on matters that he has raisdd. I would also say to my honour`ble

:34:10.:34:14.

friend than the counterterrorism and security act earlier this ydar, we

:34:15.:34:20.

did undertake and have a nulber of powers in relation to those who

:34:21.:34:24.

would travel to Syria or who are returning from Syria. That has

:34:25.:34:30.

increased the powers of intdlligence aid agencies. , dating all

:34:31.:34:33.

interested colleagues will require great brevity. We can, as so often,

:34:34.:34:52.

delay... The home secretary knows better than most but so most people

:34:53.:34:56.

that successful counterterrorism depends on information gathdred by

:34:57.:35:02.

neighbourhood policing, and by cutting back truly important link,

:35:03.:35:06.

her intelligence officers whll not bring about the results that she

:35:07.:35:12.

desires. Of course, I have to say to the lady that the counterterrorism

:35:13.:35:18.

work depends on the gathering of intelligence. That intelligdnce is

:35:19.:35:22.

gathered in a whole variety of ways. He as you will be aware and has been

:35:23.:35:27.

indicated in oral questions earlier, if you look at the percentage of

:35:28.:35:31.

police officers who are involved in violent policing, it has done of

:35:32.:35:33.

police officers who are involved in violent policing, it had gone over

:35:34.:35:40.

the with my friend to join le in paying tribute to Nick Alex`nder who

:35:41.:35:47.

was tragically killed... And can she also enter this house that she will

:35:48.:35:50.

do all that she can to work with the French authorities to bring the

:35:51.:35:53.

perpetrators of this heinous crime to justice? Ice and rug with my

:35:54.:36:02.

honourable friend in sending our condolences to the family and

:36:03.:36:06.

friends of the constituents who was brutally murder in the attack that

:36:07.:36:09.

took place in Paris last ye`r. Sunday was just went about his

:36:10.:36:13.

business, a business which was providing enjoyment and fun to other

:36:14.:36:19.

people, particularly to young people. He was known down in this

:36:20.:36:22.

way, and I can give my friend absolute assurance that he got - we

:36:23.:36:26.

are given every assistant that we can to the French authoritids and

:36:27.:36:28.

indeed to others in Europe hn ensuring that we can bring those who

:36:29.:36:34.

were any part of the progression in his back -- attack to justice. I

:36:35.:36:39.

live near Paris, and spend lany evenings in the area that w`s

:36:40.:36:43.

desecrated in Friday night. To my friend friends, I state... FRENCH.

:36:44.:36:57.

I'm sure the Secretary of State would join me in the response of a

:36:58.:37:04.

small group must not be too poppy drawbridge on the hundreds of

:37:05.:37:06.

thousands of juror genuine cheering refugees who are fleeing in terror

:37:07.:37:11.

similar of that info John T`ras -- Paris on Friday. The gentlelan is

:37:12.:37:19.

right. In a number of questhons I have responded in relation to the

:37:20.:37:23.

issue of the United Kingdom's own plans to bring in a number of

:37:24.:37:26.

steering refugees. Is right that we continue to do that as I have

:37:27.:37:31.

indicated. We have security arrangements, and there are many

:37:32.:37:34.

people who have been displaced as a result of the barbarity that has

:37:35.:37:37.

taken place in Syria, displ`ced from their homes who need protection who

:37:38.:37:44.

need assistance. We stand rdady to play our part as indicated. May I

:37:45.:37:54.

too welcome the meeting between the Prime Minister and President Putin

:37:55.:37:59.

as a conservative step towards the resolution of the hearing more. --

:38:00.:38:08.

Syrian war. Well my friend not rude to me that the events in Paris

:38:09.:38:13.

illustrates the need to provide our intelligence services all the powers

:38:14.:38:17.

that they need in order to deal with us to keep our people safe from

:38:18.:38:24.

depraved Islamic fundamentalists? I absolutely agree with my honourable

:38:25.:38:27.

friend, and I am sure the m`jority of the public arena.

:38:28.:38:42.

Landscapers attention that one of the perpetrators of these attacks

:38:43.:38:48.

have previously been on the periphery of any inquiry th`t the

:38:49.:38:54.

security service had been c`rried out. We welcome the fact th`t she

:38:55.:39:01.

will be attending the meeting of of the Justice Council on Frid`y. Was

:39:02.:39:09.

she raises the issue of shared information, was she also t`lked

:39:10.:39:13.

about the shared information on the sorts of cases, because every can't

:39:14.:39:18.

spot them earlier, and we c`nnot spot them before the crime hs

:39:19.:39:24.

committed. He makes an important point, and in looking at thdse

:39:25.:39:29.

issues as far as possible wd wish to be able to identify people `t before

:39:30.:39:33.

they can conduct an attack. This ties in with not just

:39:34.:39:37.

counterterrorism, but also criminality, which is one of the

:39:38.:39:41.

reasons that we are looking to see an improvement in the exchange of

:39:42.:39:44.

information about criminality among the countries within the European

:39:45.:39:50.

Union. I have French relatives in Paris. I associate myself whth the

:39:51.:39:58.

home Secretary's remarks in terms of this attack. She made the rhght

:39:59.:40:02.

point that I would and this country, we are blessed by the fact of the

:40:03.:40:06.

availability of automatic wdapons. In some cases of more sophisticated

:40:07.:40:13.

explosive. Is hard in this country to obtain. We should have adequate

:40:14.:40:18.

screening at our borders to prevent importation. We have good

:40:19.:40:21.

intelligence, but that in itself cannot be a substitute for ht. I

:40:22.:40:26.

wonder what party she is gohng to be able to get to that point. On the

:40:27.:40:30.

second matter, I want to sax about her comments on his on the 40th --

:40:31.:40:35.

as on the 40th... Is on the phobia... This country would be wise

:40:36.:40:44.

not to underestimate its impact My friends other point is right. One of

:40:45.:40:48.

the reasons why it is important to ask the police to separatelx record

:40:49.:40:53.

anti-Muslim hate crime is for us to get a better understanding of the

:40:54.:40:58.

extent of this. , my's stathstic has been suggesting that it has

:40:59.:41:01.

increased in recent years. Hs important that we play our part in

:41:02.:41:06.

addressing a problem and recognising the impact they has on a problem and

:41:07.:41:09.

recognising the impact that has on her muzzle them -- communithes. He

:41:10.:41:11.

asked about firearms, and I have been pressing for some time now for

:41:12.:41:15.

greater action within the Etropean Union in relation to him about

:41:16.:41:20.

firearms. I expect that this will be further discussed later in this

:41:21.:41:25.

two-week. We must also ensure that the national crime that agency is

:41:26.:41:29.

undertaking operations at looking specifically at this issue with our

:41:30.:41:33.

border force as to how it would be possible for us to add to the United

:41:34.:41:36.

Kingdom at, and what further action can be taken to prevent that. Mr

:41:37.:41:42.

Speaker I was alarmed to he`r that last week French security sdrvices

:41:43.:41:50.

were informed of a man detahned in Bavaria with automatic weapons. In

:41:51.:41:56.

welcoming the home Secretarx's commitment to additional resource,

:41:57.:42:00.

and for our security servicds, can she confirm that it is new loney,

:42:01.:42:05.

that the appointments of 1900 officers will be new, and that such

:42:06.:42:09.

information could have been given to our services? I'm not able to

:42:10.:42:19.

comment on the particular c`se that he outlines, because I do not know

:42:20.:42:22.

all of the facts within that. There have been reports of the media, but

:42:23.:42:26.

I think that it is important -- important for me not to comlent on

:42:27.:42:31.

that. I can confirm that thdse will be subject to additional money. I

:42:32.:42:41.

express our solidarity with our French colleagues in intern`tional

:42:42.:42:48.

Poland today. In two world wars shoulder to shoulder. May I speak

:42:49.:42:54.

directly to them and say... Tailback French.

:42:55.:43:03.

I think that I can only respond to my honourable friend by sayhng. .

:43:04.:43:17.

FRENCH. Can I add my voice to those who have condemned these barbaric

:43:18.:43:22.

attacks on France, and thosd who have a flight from Egypt to Russia.

:43:23.:43:29.

One of my many concerns is that there will be a rise in the Islam of

:43:30.:43:37.

phobia, and I want him to the home Secretary's words when she said ..

:43:38.:43:44.

In light of those words can I encourage everyone in this house to

:43:45.:43:47.

stop using the name of Islal when talking about these terrorists. The

:43:48.:43:50.

name that they have given themselves is Isil, and can I encouragd

:43:51.:43:59.

everyone to use the term. It is something that might break the link

:44:00.:44:02.

in peoples minds between Islam and terrorism. I say to the honourable

:44:03.:44:07.

Lady Diana Seppi with the boy that she has made. I do not you H do

:44:08.:44:18.

often use a term... This group is not Islamic, and it is not ` state.

:44:19.:44:21.

We should not give the imprdssion of either of those. Can I thank the

:44:22.:44:28.

Secretary of State for her statements. It will be widely

:44:29.:44:33.

welcomed in France, or offer us towards supporting cooperathon, and

:44:34.:44:36.

also he is insistent that the election on. She would know that

:44:37.:44:41.

there are numerous attempts on the British public, and that we should

:44:42.:44:45.

be deeply grateful for security services. Went on to the

:44:46.:44:48.

investigatory Powers Bill, will she reflect on proposals to involve

:44:49.:44:52.

judiciary on the executive decision on issuing warrants. Base should be

:44:53.:44:57.

in the hands in the sector of state who bear a response ability to this

:44:58.:45:02.

house, by all means involve the judiciary after the event, dates, or

:45:03.:45:06.

a week later. We should really consider that it must be a Secretary

:45:07.:45:12.

of State -- state that makes this decision, and dispute that hs a

:45:13.:45:16.

vital. He is right, there are cases where speed is essential. That is

:45:17.:45:22.

why in the investigatory Powers Bill, we provide for emergency or

:45:23.:45:25.

urgency situations, where the timeliness is required, and in those

:45:26.:45:30.

circumstances it will be possible for Secretary of State to shgn a

:45:31.:45:33.

word to that would come into effect immediately before the judicial

:45:34.:45:38.

authority has considered a. He asks me to look at the double locked them

:45:39.:45:43.

to put in place. I agree with him that it is important to havd public

:45:44.:45:47.

accountability over the dechsion made by the Secretary of St`te. I

:45:48.:45:50.

also know there is concern from people to ensure that there is a

:45:51.:45:54.

second element of judicial authority. Some people wantdd only

:45:55.:45:57.

to be judicial authority, bh do not think that is right. The wax that we

:45:58.:46:01.

are going with the accountability of the Secretary of State and the

:46:02.:46:03.

independence of the judiciary is right. We condemn these murders and

:46:04.:46:15.

depraved attack. We send our console condolences. The organisation who

:46:16.:46:23.

perpetrated the attacks that do that with the home Secretary is for the

:46:24.:46:26.

house that the government is doing all that it can to aid international

:46:27.:46:34.

efforts to stop the supply of arms and expertise to terrorist `t the

:46:35.:46:40.

source? I said to the honourable gentleman that indeed we ard looking

:46:41.:46:42.

across the board that every editor and step that can be taken hn

:46:43.:46:46.

relation to these matters. We did see a difference in this attack in

:46:47.:46:50.

relation to the attacks previously had undertaken in a name of Isil,

:46:51.:46:55.

because it has been and reqtired proration and planning. He hs right

:46:56.:47:02.

that is important to stem the availability of at source. @s a

:47:03.:47:05.

reason that we have been looking at, or continue to look it up across

:47:06.:47:09.

Europe at the question of the movement of the movement of

:47:10.:47:12.

firearms, particularly heavx weaponry like assault rifles across

:47:13.:47:22.

Europe. I would like to add, on behalf of my constituents following

:47:23.:47:25.

Friday's perfect attack in Paris. The primary -- by minister suggested

:47:26.:47:30.

that the government will be looking at a timetable by the draft of the

:47:31.:47:33.

investigatory Powers Bill. Dvent in Paris and Brussels have highlighted

:47:34.:47:37.

the importance to make sure that our intelligence and security sdrvices

:47:38.:47:39.

have all the resources that they need. Within a legal framework to

:47:40.:47:49.

show signs -- to Franco Lee tax -- act of terrorism of having xour

:47:50.:47:54.

home. And might pray and offer information into the privatd Mr s

:47:55.:47:58.

anaesthetist morning. I would like to add my support to the frhend when

:47:59.:48:06.

she talked about that the Isil are nothing by death. He went b`ck I

:48:07.:48:11.

commend my friend for the comments that she has made a. In rel`tion to

:48:12.:48:17.

the timing, as I have indic`ted we have always looked to make sure that

:48:18.:48:21.

we have in place the legisl`tion that enables Oracle -- police and

:48:22.:48:28.

security and intelligence agencies the power that they need. The

:48:29.:48:31.

investigatory Powers Bill significant piece of legisl`tion

:48:32.:48:35.

and. We expected to stand the test of time, we do want it to bd changed

:48:36.:48:42.

by governments on a constant basis. It is important that we get right,

:48:43.:48:46.

and it is important and therefore they has proper scrutiny and also

:48:47.:48:49.

they has support across this house, given the nature of the leghslation

:48:50.:49:06.

that we are introducing. Thdse young people who were attacking P`ris

:49:07.:49:11.

they must've gotten brainwashed somewhere across the line someone.

:49:12.:49:17.

To the secretary of the state does what she's going to do to stop them

:49:18.:49:23.

from getting too young people, and speculate who of finances these

:49:24.:49:33.

people? Young the honourabld gentleman has raised an important

:49:34.:49:37.

point about counter radicalhsation. That is why there is in place the

:49:38.:49:42.

preventive programme, and whthin the prevent programme the channdl

:49:43.:49:44.

programme which specificallx deals with individuals and worse to move

:49:45.:49:51.

them away from a path of radicalisation. Bratwurst more

:49:52.:49:55.

generally within communities. Any counterterrorism act we provided

:49:56.:50:01.

greater training to identifx these issues of potential running

:50:02.:50:05.

radicalisation, and ability to take action against him. Beyond that we

:50:06.:50:09.

have lost our contract team is a strategy because it is important

:50:10.:50:13.

that we challenged the extrdmist ideology that lies behind that

:50:14.:50:16.

radicalisation. As far strategy and to do. Mr Speaker, does my friend

:50:17.:50:26.

accept that many of the successes against drugs and arms smugglers

:50:27.:50:29.

have been because of the work of the border force, maritime aeri`l

:50:30.:50:35.

surveillance capability. As well as its team based at an ever in my

:50:36.:50:40.

constituency. Was she therefore reserve -- reverse the decision to

:50:41.:50:43.

terminate at contract with the affect of January sixth in 2016 and

:50:44.:50:50.

in so doing you do warning of a baroness that we will otherwise be

:50:51.:50:55.

left with a gap in our capability in maritime surveillance? I sax to him

:50:56.:51:01.

that what is important is that we have the capability that we need. I

:51:02.:51:04.

can reassure him that we will be ensuring that we do indeed have the

:51:05.:51:12.

capability that we need. In a genuine spirit of inquiry, hs a

:51:13.:51:18.

sensitive area, with the set of withdrawing citizenship frol some

:51:19.:51:21.

who to promote and act on the basis of an eye -- ideology of threat to

:51:22.:51:27.

the fellow citizens of the TK quiz you? Went back I do have thd power

:51:28.:51:33.

to remove citizenship, and H have acted that way on a number of

:51:34.:51:37.

occasions. The is subject to some limitations in relation to dnsuring

:51:38.:51:41.

that people are not made st`teless, although we did our -- enhance our

:51:42.:51:47.

ability to remove citizenshhp in the last bill that we passed. Whth the

:51:48.:51:57.

home secretary agreed that Hsil and targets in Syria should be bound by

:51:58.:52:02.

RDF, and is it not time for the house to be consulted again on this

:52:03.:52:06.

matter? The Prime Minister has made clear that you will only cole back

:52:07.:52:09.

to the house on this matter when there is a consensus, and obviously

:52:10.:52:13.

everyone in this house will be considering their position on that

:52:14.:52:19.

particular matter. Home secretary and welcome statement has ptt stress

:52:20.:52:25.

on the importance of our cotnter extremism strategy. In building a

:52:26.:52:31.

sense of shared values, which I do what she has called pervertdd and

:52:32.:52:36.

murderous values of these tdrrorist. Will she be with her colleagues in

:52:37.:52:41.

the Department of education, in the Department of education, and those

:52:42.:52:45.

departments can can do to btild that shared sense of value? I sax to the

:52:46.:52:51.

honourable lady that the extremism task force is chaired by thd Prime

:52:52.:52:54.

Minister, and it includes both the promise that she has mentioned, and

:52:55.:52:58.

others as well as well as the home office. But she looks at thd

:52:59.:53:03.

federation strategy, Sue -- she will see that includes references to the

:53:04.:53:08.

Department of education, th`t they have already moved in relathon to

:53:09.:53:13.

that work on promoting the shared values that we share as part of

:53:14.:53:23.

living in this society. My friend has mentioned 129 birth, and the

:53:24.:53:29.

hundreds still in hospital. In addition, there are people like a

:53:30.:53:32.

friend of mine, who on Frid`y night within a bistro just yards from the

:53:33.:53:39.

cafe that was attack. PMs to friends escaped. They ran down the road

:53:40.:53:45.

only to find themselves getting very close to another area which was

:53:46.:53:51.

under attack. He has now returned home, and I can tell you and the

:53:52.:53:56.

house that he is totally tr`umatised to stop the wish to work across

:53:57.:54:04.

government to ensure that pdople like him and others who havd

:54:05.:54:07.

returned back to the UK, who have been hurt in this way, will receive

:54:08.:54:11.

assistance from the Departmdnt of health and other organizations? Yes,

:54:12.:54:16.

I can give him that that reassurance. The foreign office has

:54:17.:54:20.

insured that the support is available for those who havd

:54:21.:54:23.

returned who were caught up in this, not just those who are physhcal in

:54:24.:54:27.

jeopardy, but those who havd been, ties as a result of the x-r`ys of

:54:28.:54:31.

the head. I would suggest allowable friend that you can't ask the

:54:32.:54:34.

Minister of the foreign offhce who is on the treasurer branch ,- bench

:54:35.:54:38.

who and will be at able to dnlighten him. I have received the sad news

:54:39.:54:48.

courtesy of the skull in thd newspaper that a young man from Fort

:54:49.:54:54.

William is an induced, it al Paris, having been caught up in thd events.

:54:55.:54:59.

I would like to ask the homd Secretary was a Barbie can give to

:55:00.:55:03.

the family in this situation, not just be a young man involved, but

:55:04.:55:08.

his extended family, and Rosato -- and solidarity to those who've been

:55:09.:55:09.

caught this is well-stocked? In our thoughts are with hil. And

:55:10.:55:18.

his family and friends and honestly be held that he will make a

:55:19.:55:24.

recovery. There is constant support to families who wish to be

:55:25.:55:29.

supporting members of the f`mily who are in hospital in France. We have

:55:30.:55:35.

also a wider point we look `t what assistance the Department of Health

:55:36.:55:39.

can give to friends, partictlarly looking at the issue of those who

:55:40.:55:43.

have been traumatised by thd event and experience that we have here in

:55:44.:55:47.

the Department of Health. Work is ongoing and all sorts of exchanger.

:55:48.:55:51.

As I've said, there is assistance available on the British assembly in

:55:52.:55:56.

Paris. And we have sent a tdam over to Paris to help with network.

:55:57.:56:06.

Allenby 2003 bombings, Morocco set up the camera back to train foreign

:56:07.:56:14.

overseas. Including women preachers. And the moderate Sunni tradhtion,

:56:15.:56:19.

that characterises backcountry. Last month, an agreement was reached with

:56:20.:56:24.

friends and I respect. What can we learn from that experience? Will be

:56:25.:56:28.

a benefit to the UK and would do commend Barack Obama this

:56:29.:56:35.

initiative? Yes. I absolutely command Morocco for the initiative

:56:36.:56:40.

that it took. My Honorable friend, the Minister from Foreign Office who

:56:41.:56:44.

is responsible for North Africa visited that facility recently. We

:56:45.:56:50.

are encouraging other countries in the Middle East to take a shmilar

:56:51.:56:59.

approach. Can I join the Hole Secretary and baking our security

:57:00.:57:03.

services, our police and Arled Forces for the work that thdy do in

:57:04.:57:08.

keeping a safe. The Home Secretary spoke of taking all necessary steps

:57:09.:57:12.

to prevent attacks on the UK. I ll be grateful if you can take say

:57:13.:57:15.

something about what work is taking place to audit all of our existing

:57:16.:57:19.

security capabilities, to ensure that we have what we need in the

:57:20.:57:23.

right place, at the right ldvel of preparedness and that it is properly

:57:24.:57:27.

resource die because she also confirmed that she exited examining

:57:28.:57:30.

our resilience and not just in London, but in towns and cities

:57:31.:57:35.

across the UK? I can certainly assure the honourable gentldman that

:57:36.:57:38.

we do not just look at resilience in London, we look across the TK. As I

:57:39.:57:42.

indicated earlier, in relathon to these sorts of writing done attacks,

:57:43.:57:51.

we had enhance our ability to deal with these, not just the police

:57:52.:57:54.

capabilities, but the ability of the emergency services to work together

:57:55.:57:57.

to save lives and high risk situations. That is being rdviewed

:57:58.:58:03.

as a result of the terrorist attacks to see if there are any lessons that

:58:04.:58:08.

we need to learn from those attacks. We are looking across other aspects

:58:09.:58:10.

of our security arrangements to ensure that they are appropriate and

:58:11.:58:19.

to the thread that we face. Was then chilled at this older with the

:58:20.:58:22.

people of France, and I both have to be with the families and all of the

:58:23.:58:26.

victims at this time. When ht comes to security of our borders, we are

:58:27.:58:33.

only as strong as our weakest link. The French as it disorder control

:58:34.:58:37.

over the weekend, what extent can the secretary... To the atthtude is

:58:38.:58:43.

important control throughout the rest of the EU? I say to her that of

:58:44.:58:50.

course the internal borders within this second area are for those

:58:51.:58:55.

countries who are members of second. We have of course been disctssing

:58:56.:58:58.

with other countries in the European union of the whole question of the

:58:59.:59:02.

external borders of Europe. And how we can enhance those the security at

:59:03.:59:06.

the external borders, and wd will continue with the discussions. I

:59:07.:59:16.

welcome the Home Secretary of state. She is aware that my constituency of

:59:17.:59:21.

bent -- Brent North is one with the highest numbers of refugees and

:59:22.:59:23.

asylum seekers from the Middle East in the country. In light of the

:59:24.:59:31.

clear advice above current `nd former Metropolitan Police

:59:32.:59:33.

commissioners of the import`nce of neighbourhood safety teams `nd local

:59:34.:59:36.

policing, will see me with the current Police Commissioner and look

:59:37.:59:42.

at the needs of constituenches, like mine, to ensure that those local

:59:43.:59:45.

neighbourhood safety teams `re kept in place and enhanced in order to

:59:46.:59:53.

ensure that the strategy is fine? I can assure the honourable gdntleman

:59:54.:59:55.

that I meet regularly with the Commissioner. To discuss a number of

:59:56.:00:01.

issues relating to the policing of lending and what a responsible

:00:02.:00:12.

disease that he has. I welcome my friend in a statement with regards

:00:13.:00:15.

to the doubling of resources for airport securities during this

:00:16.:00:20.

Parliament. She will note that over the weekend, airports has bdcause

:00:21.:00:29.

after a lightly French national was was caught with a firearm. Will she

:00:30.:00:35.

join me in paying tribute to Sussex Police, and also security at the

:00:36.:00:42.

airport for their vigilance? I am aware there was an incident that

:00:43.:00:46.

took place. It with that with very professionally by the policd and I

:00:47.:00:49.

certainly commend the work of the Sussex Police at the airport, and

:00:50.:00:54.

also the wider work of Sussdx Police and the work that they do to keep

:00:55.:01:01.

people safe. I was to offer my condolences. These people are not of

:01:02.:01:08.

my faith and should not be regarded as such. I wish to pay tribtte to

:01:09.:01:14.

that's our police and securhty for the work that they do in kedping us

:01:15.:01:18.

safe. I had knowledge the ftnding has been met, and also have comments

:01:19.:01:26.

on islamophobia. Was to look at the border agency and staffing that

:01:27.:01:31.

needs to be done? Not just to keep -- does the Air Force, but `ll of

:01:32.:01:38.

our airports than the tubul`r that. Can I welcome the statement that the

:01:39.:01:42.

honourable gentleman made. H think it is important that the st`tement

:01:43.:01:45.

that he has made his has bedn made here in the House. In that lessage

:01:46.:01:49.

should go out across the whole of the country. Would do a look

:01:50.:01:55.

staffing across, not just ahrports, but in relation to reports to. We

:01:56.:02:02.

are constantly looking at the appropriate staffing and me`sures

:02:03.:02:05.

that are in place to maintahn security. Will do that on an ongoing

:02:06.:02:13.

basis. I welcome the Prime Minister's of increased funding for

:02:14.:02:15.

our intelligence services, they are doing a good job. In light of of the

:02:16.:02:23.

events of Paris, and hide a risk here in London, may I heckld across

:02:24.:02:28.

the sufficient funding to ensure comprehensive neighbourhood policing

:02:29.:02:31.

in London, which is a cruci`l tool in tackling home-grown terror was

:02:32.:02:38.

white I, always leave the ftnding that will be available to individual

:02:39.:02:41.

police forces and the polichng budget and general will be lade

:02:42.:02:44.

known that the basement to review and the allocation, which whll be a

:02:45.:02:52.

few weeks after that. I can assure him that in looking at all of these

:02:53.:02:55.

matters, we of course look `t the capabilities that are required by

:02:56.:03:00.

our police. Are looking at anti-terror resumed work, wd live

:03:01.:03:03.

across the board at the cap`bilities that are required to ensure that we

:03:04.:03:10.

can maintain our national sdcurity. Over the weekend, there werd great

:03:11.:03:19.

celebrations and hierarchy of the capture of... , Lord Robertson be

:03:20.:03:26.

the from Syria, and the asshstance of UK forces through the air and

:03:27.:03:36.

other partners. That has broken the connection between... Candy Home

:03:37.:03:42.

Secretary speak from the colleagues from the Commonwealth officd and

:03:43.:03:44.

other government departments and assess mouth, is it not timd that we

:03:45.:03:52.

did more in this country, both to assist... And see how we can destroy

:03:53.:03:59.

in his headquarters? The honourable gentleman is right. We need to do

:04:00.:04:07.

the the dais and we that and we do that in a whole variety of ways

:04:08.:04:09.

Dealing with them when they are primarily based as part of that He

:04:10.:04:14.

is right in referring to thd recapture. That is an important

:04:15.:04:22.

landmark that has taken place. I am sure is that you will noticd that

:04:23.:04:26.

there is a form, web offices on the progress that would the rem`rks that

:04:27.:04:33.

he he has made. What my fridnd agreed that that those who seek to

:04:34.:04:36.

defend our liberties, those enjoyed by Christians, Muslims, those of

:04:37.:04:40.

faith or none, by depriving the security services of the powers that

:04:41.:04:45.

they need actually put thosd liberties at risk and should

:04:46.:04:49.

consider their position? I think my friend makes an important point I

:04:50.:04:55.

think people talk about sectrity and liberties as is some sort of 0-sum

:04:56.:04:59.

game, but actually you can only enjoy your liberties if you have

:05:00.:05:09.

your security. I spent this morning with one of my constituents who

:05:10.:05:14.

spent Friday night dischargd from the battle cut. Despite the summer

:05:15.:05:17.

that he had been through, hd wanted to speak to me about was his

:05:18.:05:22.

concerns about the Syrian community, particularly in light of

:05:23.:05:24.

the passport that was found. His view is that that those who run away

:05:25.:05:29.

from the alarm of state, run away from Syria because they do not share

:05:30.:05:33.

his values, just because we do not share his values. It is important

:05:34.:05:35.

that we continue to make it clear that a juror, we welcome refugees.

:05:36.:05:45.

In your. At the Honorable L`dy knows, we are committed to welcoming

:05:46.:05:48.

thousands of refugees beford Christmas, at 20,000 over the course

:05:49.:05:54.

of this Parliament. He is rhght those waffling the action that is

:05:55.:05:58.

taking place in Syria are playing from the barbarism of Isil, but also

:05:59.:06:02.

many cases playing from att`cks of the Syrian people from his own

:06:03.:06:05.

government. Is why it is so important that we ensure th`t we

:06:06.:06:11.

find a resolution, a political resolution, for what is happening in

:06:12.:06:16.

Syria. So that those many htndreds of thousands series who havd had to

:06:17.:06:20.

flee their homes, are able to go back to where they want to be, which

:06:21.:06:28.

is home. My friend referred to the French governments management.. I

:06:29.:06:34.

want to support her expresshon of gratitude to them. As she knows

:06:35.:06:38.

there are around 5000 peopld leaving -- living just outside of C`li who

:06:39.:06:45.

are desperate to get to the UK. The government invest in better security

:06:46.:06:48.

over the summer, which has been effective. There are still some

:06:49.:06:51.

people getting through the border every night. Could she advise what

:06:52.:06:57.

further steps will be taken to ensure that the border at C`l is

:06:58.:07:01.

secure, but also make sure conditions in the camp refldct our

:07:02.:07:10.

values, especially compassion? And regards, the conditions in Canada,

:07:11.:07:13.

some funding has been made `vailable to the French government for

:07:14.:07:18.

facilities in the camps, and we ourselves the UK Government has

:07:19.:07:21.

committed funding to the Frdnch government, to work with thdm and

:07:22.:07:26.

identify victims of trafficking who may be in the camps. On the security

:07:27.:07:29.

front, we have stepped up the spring that has taken place. -- tr`ining.

:07:30.:07:42.

Increase the security fencing there, the French government has increased

:07:43.:07:46.

police presence, and we havd increased the number of scrdening

:07:47.:07:50.

activities with are taking place over a variety of source. -, sorts.

:07:51.:08:03.

The Secretary of State will be aware that Glasgow was the scene of a

:08:04.:08:06.

spontaneous vigil for peace and tolerance the solidarity with Paris

:08:07.:08:13.

on Saturday. Is also prepardd to welcome refugees. That she `greed

:08:14.:08:16.

that the promotion of peace and tolerance is the best way to

:08:17.:08:20.

counteract terrorism and living up to our place to welcome reftgees is

:08:21.:08:24.

one of the best ways to demonstrate that tolerance? I think it hs

:08:25.:08:27.

absolutely right that we should pledge peace and tolerance. Was to

:08:28.:08:32.

be done all to encourage pe`ce and tolerance. And assured that there is

:08:33.:08:36.

tolerance within communities here in the United Kingdom. There are

:08:37.:08:41.

numerous bigoted afternoon have already referred to. And welcoming

:08:42.:08:46.

of refugees, giving them protection, and that homes of those who have

:08:47.:08:50.

been the place from conflict and Syria is at very good example of

:08:51.:08:58.

that. Hunger for the Home Sdcretary that should mention the word that

:08:59.:09:01.

should mention the work will see played tribute to... 11 working 24

:09:02.:09:08.

hours of round-the-clock since this matter occurred, some of thd

:09:09.:09:15.

parliamentary business last Monday, and was far to take the opportunity

:09:16.:09:18.

to recognise that now is not a time... He is right. I first met he

:09:19.:09:30.

was was a national security adviser, he is well aware of the isstes

:09:31.:09:35.

around the issue. He has bedn doing and asked on a job as our Albassador

:09:36.:09:39.

in France. I have seen him work closely over the summer months in

:09:40.:09:44.

relation to this issue. He dnters that have been working tirelessly

:09:45.:09:49.

over this to ensure the consulate support is available to those

:09:50.:09:52.

British families who have bden caught up in these terrible attacks.

:09:53.:09:56.

But also to ensure that every assistance had me given givdn to the

:09:57.:09:58.

French authorities in the work that they are doing. Indoctrinathon of

:09:59.:10:08.

young boy and mines is a re`l source of concern one, to the growth of

:10:09.:10:14.

radical Islam. Lastly, only the schools... Would have a real problem

:10:15.:10:21.

with private Muslim faith schools, people dropping off the reghster.

:10:22.:10:28.

And heard the secretary to work with the Secretariat, as an air of real

:10:29.:10:31.

concern, cope because we ard not doing the job at the moment. I think

:10:32.:10:36.

he raises a point. We have seen already some actions they'vd taken

:10:37.:10:40.

place in this area. The govdrnment is committed to taking further

:10:41.:10:44.

action in relation to suppldmentary schools. Will be looking at further

:10:45.:10:53.

inspections a supplementary schools that are providing a number of

:10:54.:10:55.

certain hours of education, I think it is important, both in relation to

:10:56.:11:01.

the issue that he has raced on radicalisation, and also just as a

:11:02.:11:09.

general safeguarding issues. And I welcome the Secretary of St`te's

:11:10.:11:17.

statement today of the meastres announced for security servhces As

:11:18.:11:21.

you'll recognise, that Metropolitan Police have counterterrorisl

:11:22.:11:24.

launches, not only in London but across the country. Can ask her what

:11:25.:11:29.

extra support might be extended to them at least and execution of these

:11:30.:11:35.

duties? He is right that thd counterterrorism command, is based

:11:36.:11:45.

the Metropolitan Police. Th`t is funded through the countertdrrorism

:11:46.:11:48.

policing grant, as are the counterterrorism regional units that

:11:49.:11:54.

have existed in place like the best, Northwest across the country.

:11:55.:12:04.

We will of course... And having cleared the cat counterterrorism

:12:05.:12:11.

funding will continue to be protected the type of the story and

:12:12.:12:15.

we welcome her attendance at the European justice and home affairs

:12:16.:12:18.

Council on Friday. That the Home Secretary at the Andrew of the

:12:19.:12:20.

story, and we welcome her attendance at the European justice and home

:12:21.:12:23.

affairs Council on Friday. That the Home Secretary that agree whth me

:12:24.:12:25.

with our European union partners and friends system the flow of `rms to

:12:26.:12:31.

share information, and. Fild acts of terrorism? And the. That cooperation

:12:32.:12:36.

is important. We are looking to enhance the cooperation and a number

:12:37.:12:41.

of areas, including as I indicated earlier, the movement of firearms,

:12:42.:12:47.

and things like the exchangd across borders of information about

:12:48.:12:49.

criminality and criminal records. So that we can all better protdct our

:12:50.:13:01.

citizens in the future. I wdlcome the secretaries's statement and

:13:02.:13:04.

particularly that they will be increased border checks on vehicles

:13:05.:13:08.

entering the UK. Does my right honourable friend not agree that in

:13:09.:13:16.

order to further... Of illegal immigrants and illegal fire`rms

:13:17.:13:19.

being brought in to the UK, every single vehicle entering this country

:13:20.:13:29.

should be thoroughly checked? I say to my friend that the decishons

:13:30.:13:34.

about the assessment of which checks are taken any particular vehicle, is

:13:35.:13:38.

a matter for the border force that they'll be taken at our borders

:13:39.:13:42.

They have a clear mandate that they operate under. To have incrdased the

:13:43.:13:46.

number of checks that they `re undertaking. I would say to him that

:13:47.:13:52.

of course they will be lookhng for those who are trying to embdd the UK

:13:53.:13:55.

illegally. They'll be looking for those who are tried to bring in

:13:56.:13:59.

firearms illegally. They have had success in both of those ardas, and

:14:00.:14:04.

I think our border force officers do an excellent job for us. Thd Home

:14:05.:14:13.

Secretary would have heard `nd heard departmental questions and during

:14:14.:14:16.

the statement that the high level of concern across the country `re at

:14:17.:14:21.

because of the police forces. Can I ask her what considerations she had

:14:22.:14:24.

been having a discussion with the Minister of defence about utilising

:14:25.:14:29.

the Armed Forces and prevention and potentially responding should there

:14:30.:14:35.

be an attack in the UK? I c`n assure her it that there are tacit

:14:36.:14:40.

arrangements in place, for lilitary support to be provided to the police

:14:41.:14:44.

when necessary. These were hssues that we looked at after the attacks

:14:45.:14:52.

in Paris that had earlier this year,... And attacks in London. At

:14:53.:15:09.

somebody from and military background, I agree with her. This

:15:10.:15:14.

was caused by an evil organhzation. We all have to unite togethdr to

:15:15.:15:18.

defeat this evil organization. Its ideology and propaganda that pushes

:15:19.:15:25.

forward. , ask the secretarx it it is estimated that 80% of tax in the

:15:26.:15:37.

UK have prevented... -- att`cks , is that correct, and we continted with

:15:38.:15:42.

that? I do not comment on any particular information or

:15:43.:15:46.

intelligence that has led to the ability to disrupt potential

:15:47.:15:50.

attacks. We of course work with a number of countries overseas in

:15:51.:15:53.

relation to intelligence sh`ring, and I can confirm that the Prime

:15:54.:15:59.

Minister said this morning, that in the last 12 months, seven tdrrorist

:16:00.:16:01.

attacks have been disrupted in the UK. I listen very carefully to the

:16:02.:16:11.

defence secretary statement about the Jones. To become Secret`ry of

:16:12.:16:18.

State speak a little bit about the nation and the origin of thd first

:16:19.:16:21.

that we faced, and to what dxtent we are facing directly... I thhnk the

:16:22.:16:30.

fact is that the bread that we face is diverse. The fact that started

:16:31.:16:36.

with a Isil is diverse, as we have seen what has happened in P`ris

:16:37.:16:40.

individuals conducting an attack would have been prepared and

:16:41.:16:44.

planned. Of course, it is possible these days with social medi` for

:16:45.:16:47.

people who are based and ond territory to reach out to others,

:16:48.:16:51.

and encouraged him to go out and undertake an attack on our streets.

:16:52.:16:58.

Soda bread that we face is ` diverse spread, and some of that threat

:16:59.:17:01.

honestly does originate frol that territory that is by Isil. Further

:17:02.:17:10.

to the previous question, I have to say I has to go out to thosd in

:17:11.:17:19.

Paris. At the nature of the threat, as my right friend said that if the

:17:20.:17:22.

dais were defeated in Syria and Iraq, that would not necess`rily

:17:23.:17:30.

stop the problem in Western Europe. Is important that we do the dais. Of

:17:31.:17:37.

course, as my Honorable fridnd will recognise, there are threats that we

:17:38.:17:44.

face that cannot just some of them. Doctorates from organizations and

:17:45.:17:47.

nations that have links to @l-Qaeda for example. What matters is

:17:48.:17:54.

important, is of course that we defeat the ideology that lids behind

:17:55.:17:59.

these terrorist groups. That can be done in a variety of ways. Ht is why

:18:00.:18:04.

the moves that would have m`de, such as the counter extremism strategy in

:18:05.:18:11.

the UK, often important. Often there is a focus on security agencies and

:18:12.:18:16.

police can do. A focus on the sort of activity. But defeating the

:18:17.:18:21.

ideology is essential. On strvivors of the attacks in Paris expressed

:18:22.:18:27.

surprise at the young age of some of the suicide bombers. It has been

:18:28.:18:30.

reported, for example, that one of the bombers may have been as young

:18:31.:18:35.

as 15 years old. I have alrdady raised this house the issue of the

:18:36.:18:42.

growth of suicide bombings. With the Secretary of State agree th`t this

:18:43.:18:45.

is an urgent matter that we need to do more to consider? I shard with

:18:46.:18:51.

the honourable gentleman thd concern about the potential use of some of

:18:52.:18:55.

these evolved in the attacks. Sadly, what we have seen in recent times it

:18:56.:19:00.

that those who are attempting to or travelling to Syria, saying more and

:19:01.:19:07.

more younger people attempthng to travel, and indeed some casds here

:19:08.:19:11.

in the UK of people and thehr teenage years being prosecuted. For

:19:12.:19:17.

the Obama and potential terroristic activities. This in a matter of

:19:18.:19:20.

concern and. Is a question of dealing with the radicalized nation

:19:21.:19:23.

that is taking place of the two of those young minds. As my frhend

:19:24.:19:31.

knows, the dispersal centre for asylum seekers and will be welcomed

:19:32.:19:36.

a share of asylum seekers over the next few weeks. Can I ask hdr what

:19:37.:19:42.

action she is taking to makd sure these are genuine asylum sedkers and

:19:43.:19:46.

I terroristic? And out with can assure that younger asylum seekers

:19:47.:19:50.

will not be radicalized? In relation to those -- both refugees that we

:19:51.:19:56.

are accepting from Syria and people who come here and claim asylum, we

:19:57.:20:01.

do make the necessary securhty checks and that is an important part

:20:02.:20:06.

of the process that we undertake. Of course, one individual who's is

:20:07.:20:11.

unaccompanied, a child or a minor towns listed in UK, the verx have

:20:12.:20:17.

been giving to a number of number of members this afternoon are

:20:18.:20:21.

important. It is a part of that within communities, we promote the

:20:22.:20:25.

mainstream voices and coheshon within communities that can help

:20:26.:20:27.

provide the resilience against that radicalized nation. How does the

:20:28.:20:39.

secretary respond to the cl`im made by President Clinton that the dais

:20:40.:20:45.

is funded by 40 countries, hncluding members of the G20. And doesn't the

:20:46.:20:50.

government and the opposition as of the congratulations of the nation to

:20:51.:20:54.

their restraint measured response to the terrible events, and th`t the

:20:55.:20:59.

government now fully embracdd the notion that hearts and minds can

:21:00.:21:02.

never be won over by bombs `nd bullets? What lies behind the

:21:03.:21:10.

terrorist attacks, what lies behind the dais, is a perverted iddology.

:21:11.:21:19.

It is important, that we de`l with that perverted ideology. We need to

:21:20.:21:22.

be taking the steps to make sure that our police and securitx

:21:23.:21:27.

agencies, our border force, have the powers and abilities to keep us safe

:21:28.:21:32.

and secure. What what underpins with the terrorists do it that pdrverted

:21:33.:21:36.

ideology. That is why dealing with that ideology, confronting ht is so

:21:37.:21:44.

important. Cycles he said that if he is reelected, that he will seek to

:21:45.:21:48.

electronically tag all of those on the extremist watchlist. Had the

:21:49.:21:53.

secretary of state consider doing the same in this country? In

:21:54.:22:01.

relation to anybody who is, a matter of interest to the police or law

:22:02.:22:08.

enforcement, there are numbdr of powers and measures that ard

:22:09.:22:10.

available to the authorities in order to do with them. But those who

:22:11.:22:15.

are planning terrorist attacks, those who seek to undertake attacks,

:22:16.:22:22.

of course with those strong counterterrorism legislation that we

:22:23.:22:25.

have here, I'm sure anybody would agree that the best place for a

:22:26.:22:28.

terrorist is prosecuted and behind bars. That the secretary understand

:22:29.:22:35.

that the Prime Minister would not get a consensus for increasdd

:22:36.:22:39.

military intervention unless and until he comes to the public and to

:22:40.:22:45.

this house with a plan involving increased diplomatic development,

:22:46.:22:54.

and military options for thhs? When can we see some leadership? She says

:22:55.:23:01.

that the UK will stand with France, when will this happen? I sax to

:23:02.:23:09.

him, I found his question and little confusing. We do stand with friends,

:23:10.:23:13.

and we have been standing alongside France. Would have been providing

:23:14.:23:18.

grants with the assistance `nd cooperation in these matters, and we

:23:19.:23:22.

continued to do so. Image of the issue of whether the UK will take

:23:23.:23:26.

part in military action in relation to Syria, and the Prime Minhster is

:23:27.:23:32.

being very clear if and when it comes to this house in relation to

:23:33.:23:35.

such matters, it will be on the basis of a consensus. From Beirut to

:23:36.:23:45.

Paris, not forgetting the explosion on the Russian MetroJet, it is clear

:23:46.:23:50.

that Isil is looking to takd is barbaric battle beyond is hopeful

:23:51.:23:55.

caliphate. Does my friend tdll us what steps are being taken to part

:23:56.:24:01.

with the international commtnity, including Arabs states -- Arab

:24:02.:24:03.

states to cut the funding to these terrorist groups? There is ` group

:24:04.:24:15.

of how the forces that come together in Coalition in relation to these

:24:16.:24:20.

and a whole variety of ways, including the work to countdr the

:24:21.:24:23.

narrative that has been givdn by dais. The office is playing his part

:24:24.:24:30.

in the Coalition of states with the single aim of the defeating Isil.

:24:31.:24:41.

Top of the government and the back Lance. Asha fired round domd, a body

:24:42.:24:46.

cell, they laid there still, pretending to be dead. Mr Speaker,

:24:47.:24:51.

Michael's action saved all of their lives. And I'm sure the Homd

:24:52.:24:56.

Secretary would join me in commending Michael's great `ction. I

:24:57.:25:00.

also welcome with the Home Secretary said in relation to support the

:25:01.:25:04.

government offered to British citizens who are caught up hn the

:25:05.:25:08.

attacks of the aftermath. I will I see confirmation that the stpport

:25:09.:25:11.

will also be extended to those who are temporarily resident in Paris,

:25:12.:25:18.

such as my constituent Mich`el. And I first doing the honourabld lady

:25:19.:25:21.

commending Michael buddy action that he took. It is unimaginable to have

:25:22.:25:28.

been in that situation, with the shots around in so many bead people

:25:29.:25:31.

being killed. The presence of mind that he showed was consider`ble

:25:32.:25:37.

Saved two lives, and I can confirm to her that the support that is

:25:38.:25:40.

available to British nation`ls who have been caught up in this, that

:25:41.:25:42.

the extent of those. By Cheryl my right honourable friend

:25:43.:25:53.

attitude to our intelligencd and security services. As long `s it

:25:54.:25:57.

continues, and I hope that the British Government is advoc`ting

:25:58.:26:02.

actively for reform to the dxtent that we can do, but as long as it

:26:03.:26:05.

continues, our security is dependent at least in part of those on the

:26:06.:26:11.

front line of Europe. What support is the British Government ghving to

:26:12.:26:15.

the intelligence and security agencies on the front line

:26:16.:26:21.

extremities of Europe to bedf up our own security? As I have indhcated in

:26:22.:26:27.

response to a number of honourable members across the house, it is a

:26:28.:26:34.

matter for those countries within, but the mimicking Kingdom does take

:26:35.:26:42.

seriously the question of the eczema Boros, we have been working to

:26:43.:26:44.

enhance the security of those external borders. We have also

:26:45.:26:53.

provided resource particularly to Greece, but have also orderdd

:26:54.:26:58.

resource to Italy in relation to being able to help them deal with

:26:59.:27:00.

the number of people coming across the borders as part of the process

:27:01.:27:05.

of strengthening that securhty at those external borders, which my

:27:06.:27:09.

honourable friend has identhfied is so important. The financing of

:27:10.:27:15.

terrorist organisations such as this is essential to our capacitx, can

:27:16.:27:21.

the home secretary comment on what strategies are in place to combat

:27:22.:27:26.

the financing of terrorist groups in the UK and internationally? Action

:27:27.:27:31.

is taken at an international level to deal with the financing. What

:27:32.:27:35.

happened in relation, is th`t they do take territory which enabled them

:27:36.:27:43.

to access oil. More widely hn relation to the funding of

:27:44.:27:47.

terrorism, we do take very seriously the whole question of the lhnks

:27:48.:27:52.

between organised crime, supposed kidnapping and terrorism financing.

:27:53.:27:57.

Working on an international level and not just UK. The people of

:27:58.:28:04.

Yorkshire have been joined hn solidarity to the people and friends

:28:05.:28:13.

over the week. Can I just added my voice to those who are to this

:28:14.:28:17.

review of the availability of resourcing of armed rapid rdsponse

:28:18.:28:21.

units and our regional towns and cities? Of course, the whold

:28:22.:28:27.

question of the availabilitx and capability of a rapid response and

:28:28.:28:31.

armed response vehicles is ` matter that we have looked at, and we have

:28:32.:28:35.

over the last five years increased accountability in relation to on the

:28:36.:28:39.

response of both the straightforward on the response, we are looking at

:28:40.:28:46.

the whole question of where it is most important for capabilities to

:28:47.:28:51.

sit, to ensure that they provide the greatest reassurance and security. I

:28:52.:29:01.

welcome the reference to thd measures to this border sectrity and

:29:02.:29:04.

aviation security, other spdcific corresponding plans to revidw

:29:05.:29:12.

railway security and partictlar and of resources at the disposal of the

:29:13.:29:19.

disposal of the transport police? In terms of the increased security

:29:20.:29:22.

arrangements that have been put in place since the attacks in Paris,

:29:23.:29:26.

that includes a security th`t is in place on the rail movements to the

:29:27.:29:30.

continent, this has been a consensus with the French authorities, who are

:29:31.:29:40.

very keen that they resort rail travel, with United Kingdom. We do

:29:41.:29:44.

of cores on a regular basis to look at the capabilities of the British

:29:45.:29:49.

transport police, and indeed as part of the exercise I said earlher,

:29:50.:29:56.

looking over the last two ydars at capabilities, the capabilithes in

:29:57.:30:02.

this area of British transport has increased. Vital to upholding values

:30:03.:30:08.

of freedom and liberty, our masters of the source and the upcomhng hours

:30:09.:30:13.

Bill, of course and there mtst be examined thoroughly, the johnt

:30:14.:30:19.

committee will be meeting for the very first time. May ask thd

:30:20.:30:23.

secretary what much as she was today to the colleagues serving on that

:30:24.:30:26.

committee? I think the messds I would send out is that this is

:30:27.:30:29.

insignificant bill. It is ilportant bill. I think it is crucial that the

:30:30.:30:37.

scrutiny that it requires, `nd I look forward to the report that will

:30:38.:30:42.

come from the scrutiny commhttee, and I commend my honourable friend

:30:43.:30:45.

and others for agreeing to serve on what I've think will be a vdry

:30:46.:30:48.

important and need to do thhs piece of work. I have privilege to have

:30:49.:30:59.

been invited to speak at thd Muslim community peace conference `nd

:31:00.:31:02.

Scotland on Saturday. Not only did they still... They raise thousands

:31:03.:31:12.

of pounds, after the events in Paris, it was condemned by `ll

:31:13.:31:17.

attendees. They are peace loving team. He they believed

:31:18.:31:23.

wholeheartedly in a peaceful solutions to all matters, it is very

:31:24.:31:26.

sad that in today's world, ` minority of Muslims, have a horrible

:31:27.:31:38.

image of Islam. They want to promote freedom, equality, and thesd. They

:31:39.:31:42.

have a love for all and hatred for nine. They want to try to lhve by

:31:43.:31:52.

that motto. A few months ago I had the leisure of attending a leeting,

:31:53.:31:59.

I met on a matter occasion. The honourable Lady is right, they are

:32:00.:32:06.

very good in terms of not jtst what they live by but the practice that

:32:07.:32:11.

they put those values into practice in their local communities. Thank

:32:12.:32:15.

you Mr Speaker, it is quite clear that as a country we face a growing

:32:16.:32:24.

contention of being a welcoling for those coming from Syria and our

:32:25.:32:29.

safety and security. Said Friday we are very concerned about thhs

:32:30.:32:34.

issue. Can the home Secretary reassure my constituents and the

:32:35.:32:37.

country that the safety and security of our own people remain thhs

:32:38.:32:40.

government number one priorhty and that will not be the safety and

:32:41.:32:43.

security of our own people remain this government number one priority

:32:44.:32:46.

and that one not been compromised I can get my honourable friend at the

:32:47.:32:50.

safety and security of people in the UK is our number one priority. But

:32:51.:32:54.

that is not incompetent with our desire to welcome people into the

:32:55.:33:01.

kingdom who have been displ`ced by the competent in serious. Wd have

:33:02.:33:06.

security measures in place, to provide proper security checks for

:33:07.:33:09.

those attendees who are comhng from Syria into the United Kingdom. I

:33:10.:33:13.

think it's right that we do so, and in doing so, we can work to keep the

:33:14.:33:18.

people you're safe and secure but also provide that protection to a

:33:19.:33:21.

number of people who have fled from the conflict in serious. Th`t's

:33:22.:33:25.

serious. We know from experience and of

:33:26.:33:39.

France, and in Denmark and dlsewhere that often, people who commht these

:33:40.:33:44.

atrocities have served time in prison and I am not convincdd that

:33:45.:33:50.

the people who run our presdnt know as much or understand radic`lisation

:33:51.:33:54.

or indeed the opportunity for de-radicalization into prison as

:33:55.:34:00.

they possibly could, how confident is she that we are doing on that we

:34:01.:34:04.

can do with our presence to prevent radicalisation? First of all, I

:34:05.:34:10.

would say that of course thd prevent duty that we have introduced those

:34:11.:34:16.

cover prisons as well as other public institutions. The right

:34:17.:34:18.

honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice, has requhred with

:34:19.:34:24.

he came into his post a revhew of the provision dealing with

:34:25.:34:28.

radicalisation and prisons that review has been yet to be rdported.

:34:29.:34:35.

It is ongoing to look at wh`t is happening and prisons, my rhght

:34:36.:34:38.

honourable friend security linister will be meeting with the prdsent

:34:39.:34:41.

ministers soon to talk about these issues. We do recognise that we did

:34:42.:34:45.

it to look at what's happenhng in prisons and ensure that we `re

:34:46.:34:50.

taking every step possible to reduce the likelihood of potential for

:34:51.:34:56.

radical addition to take pl`ce. Thank you Mr Speaker, I was

:34:57.:35:01.

delighted to be able to join many of my cousins residence and Sussex If

:35:02.:35:10.

we had a similar attack herd in the UK, with my right honourabld friend

:35:11.:35:13.

agree with me that our response would be to defeat them at the Iraq

:35:14.:35:20.

and Syrian border. And also continuing our daily way of life as

:35:21.:35:25.

well full appreciation that we live in a free democratic societx? I

:35:26.:35:32.

welcome the fact that my honourable friend joined his constituents for a

:35:33.:35:40.

minute of silence. I enjoyed the French ambassador at the Frdnch

:35:41.:35:44.

Embassy for a minute of sildnce is warning. The point that my

:35:45.:35:47.

honourable friend makes abott our way of life is crucial I thhnk. If

:35:48.:35:51.

we change our way of life, hf we stop doing the things that we

:35:52.:35:54.

normally do, then the terrorists have won. They want to divide us and

:35:55.:35:59.

attack the very way of life that we have, it is important that we

:36:00.:36:04.

continue with. Over the weekend a number of constituents, and Whee

:36:05.:36:10.

contacted me about the adeqtacy of security, which is a major route

:36:11.:36:16.

into the United Kingdom forl Northern Europe, particularly from

:36:17.:36:21.

Belgium. I wonder at the secretary what check at the adequacy of

:36:22.:36:26.

security arrangements? We are looking at the security arr`ngements

:36:27.:36:29.

for all of our ports. I'm vdry happy to take away the point that she has

:36:30.:36:33.

made, and she has any specific concerns that she is able to pass on

:36:34.:36:40.

to the home office, please do so. While I do welcome the fundhng

:36:41.:36:43.

announcement that has been lade today, it is clear that our police

:36:44.:36:48.

officers are the nations front line on the ground, for response and

:36:49.:36:52.

protection against these barbaric individual. What the home sdcretary

:36:53.:36:56.

make the strongest possible case as part of his spending review that the

:36:57.:37:00.

police should be protected? I can absolutely assure my honour`ble

:37:01.:37:04.

friend that I do of course discuss these matters and make it vdry clear

:37:05.:37:10.

that police play an important role in the life of our nation. Not just

:37:11.:37:15.

in relation to the sort of latters, but of course as I have indhcated

:37:16.:37:21.

earlier, Grant has been protected and it is also the case that there

:37:22.:37:29.

are, changes the number of police forces can make which would enable

:37:30.:37:33.

them to make savings and whdn not affect their ability to respond to

:37:34.:37:38.

matters such as this. The tragic events over the weekend, I welcome

:37:39.:37:54.

the home Secretary of State met -- statement. The government concerns

:37:55.:37:59.

and putting our own bench, they haven't disagreed with me that there

:38:00.:38:04.

should be a greater investmdnt in a police security and measures. And

:38:05.:38:11.

will be far more productive than wasting ?157 billion. I say to the

:38:12.:38:20.

ombudsman that he cannot st`nd up and say that would need to look at

:38:21.:38:25.

the security of this countrx and then say that we should be scrapping

:38:26.:38:32.

Trident. We now come to backbench business. Point of order. I rise to

:38:33.:38:42.

rate a important constituency matter that took place in my consthtuency

:38:43.:38:47.

last Friday between the Minhstry of defence, the defence contractor and

:38:48.:38:52.

the local interest. This is in the light of announcement that were made

:38:53.:39:01.

by the MOD, I was a the Minhster that there would be be a public

:39:02.:39:06.

consultation. That has not happened. I have run to the Secretary of State

:39:07.:39:10.

and ask them to intervene, with your guidance I will like the Secretary

:39:11.:39:14.

of State to make a statement on what has happened, in particular what I

:39:15.:39:17.

am asking is that these events should be put on hold and lhght of a

:39:18.:39:23.

economic matter, and look at these matters in the correct manndr. I did

:39:24.:39:31.

not hear with Secretary of State the ombudsman was referring the defence.

:39:32.:39:41.

He has made his point, it would have been heard by residences of the

:39:42.:39:45.

government sitting on the treasury bench. They will choose how to

:39:46.:39:50.

respond, there are parliamentary devices which will enable the

:39:51.:39:54.

unobserved men to pursue thhs matter if not thoroughly to his

:39:55.:39:59.

satisfaction. At any rate to ensure that he has and the concern of every

:40:00.:40:03.

term. We will leave it therd for today. If there are no further

:40:04.:40:09.

points of orders. We do now come to backbench business. And the first

:40:10.:40:12.

instance to the motion of mdmbership on the UK delegation to the

:40:13.:40:15.

Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe. I informdd the

:40:16.:40:22.

house, that I have selected the manuscript amendment and it be

:40:23.:40:31.

tabled by the honourable gentleman, who is indeed in his place of. To

:40:32.:40:38.

move the motion, I call Mr Owen Paterson is. Thank you Mr Speaker.

:40:39.:40:43.

It gives me great pleasure to move this motion. After the horrors of

:40:44.:40:48.

the weekend, there were manx looking today wondering why we are

:40:49.:40:54.

discussing this issue. Actu`lly I think it is highly appropri`te

:40:55.:40:58.

because the Council of Europe concerns itself with the conduct of

:40:59.:41:03.

47 different countries concdrning human rights, democracy, and human

:41:04.:41:07.

law. The high Argosy of this debate is the tussle between the executive

:41:08.:41:12.

and the legislative. Who re`lly calls the shots? May I begin by

:41:13.:41:16.

thanking the backbench business committee for enabling this debate

:41:17.:41:22.

to take place. With a very short notice, we are six months ott of the

:41:23.:41:25.

election Mr Speaker, and I `m sad to report that UK membership of the

:41:26.:41:30.

delegation for the promontory assembly has lapsed. It last on the

:41:31.:41:35.

7th of November could we do not provide a delegation within six

:41:36.:41:39.

months of our general electhon. The next chance occurs when the assembly

:41:40.:41:46.

standing committee meets and Sophia on the 27th of November. Thd

:41:47.:41:52.

redundancy of having this ddbate, and ensuring that we do comd up with

:41:53.:41:56.

a delegation which is electdd by the appropriate methods. I hope this

:41:57.:42:02.

motion is it by the House today it will enable the necessary to take

:42:03.:42:07.

place so that that timetabld can be kept. I say necessary, becatse most

:42:08.:42:13.

parties in this house, with representation and the asselbly

:42:14.:42:15.

already choose their members democratically on a similar basis to

:42:16.:42:20.

choosing members in departmdntal select committees. This has

:42:21.:42:25.

attracted widespread support across the House. There are five chairman

:42:26.:42:30.

of select committees. The chairman of the 1922 committee, of the back

:42:31.:42:36.

benches as well as a former conservative... What my honourable

:42:37.:42:42.

friend give way, on that very point, I understand that our honourable

:42:43.:42:49.

friend the member is actually withdrawing his name from the first

:42:50.:42:57.

motion tabled in his name, ` name of another honourable colleagud

:42:58.:43:04.

amendment be which is being selected, would be amendment to

:43:05.:43:11.

reflect a good old-fashioned British compromise that should be whdely

:43:12.:43:14.

welcomed on both sides of the chamber? I am happy to stand to the

:43:15.:43:23.

correction. I got off a aeroplane from France a couple of hours ago

:43:24.:43:27.

and learned about this amendment but I think actually has some

:43:28.:43:30.

interesting merits. I will wait for my honourable friend to movd his

:43:31.:43:35.

amendment, and explain how hn my work in practice. . Do I take it

:43:36.:43:44.

from his earliest remarks, that those previous observing melbers had

:43:45.:43:48.

been told that they will not be put back in the committee, no stbstitute

:43:49.:43:53.

means have get them put forward which if true, would suggest that it

:43:54.:43:57.

is more about removing cert`in people than there are not bding of

:43:58.:44:03.

room for them to serve again? My honourable friend makes a good

:44:04.:44:06.

point. That is April, because somebody stood down and somd words

:44:07.:44:16.

taken off. The motion should also be helpful to the government bdcause it

:44:17.:44:19.

will establish beyond doubt, that all new members of the new

:44:20.:44:24.

delegation to the Parliamentary assembly of Europe, will be chosen

:44:25.:44:28.

by parliament and not by thd government. The government hs

:44:29.:44:31.

already represented in the Council of Europe on the committee of

:44:32.:44:35.

ministers. That is a governlental decision making body of the 47

:44:36.:44:40.

member countries. The role of the Parliamentary assembly, is `

:44:41.:44:45.

departmental assembly of thhs house. To hold them accountable for the

:44:46.:44:49.

decisions in relation to hulan rights, democracy and human law

:44:50.:44:54.

These are the core competencies of the Council of Europe that H touched

:44:55.:44:58.

on in my opening sentences. This house has only relatively bdgun

:44:59.:45:06.

selecting and time. The main catalyst for the main selection was

:45:07.:45:14.

for both persuasions to exclude those who criticise their own party.

:45:15.:45:19.

This happened at the hand of a labour government. And at the hands

:45:20.:45:26.

of the conservative governmdnt. All government involvement and

:45:27.:45:29.

appointing members of the conservative government. All

:45:30.:45:30.

government involvement and appointing members has ended. Is

:45:31.:45:38.

also be for the Council of Durope. The Labour Party has elected members

:45:39.:45:42.

why the conservative party hs raising on an informal basis and

:45:43.:45:46.

those who wish to be on the assembly or accommodated without excdption

:45:47.:45:50.

and those who are already on the assembly was to be reappointed

:45:51.:45:58.

Lawlor reappointed. On that point, is that really unfortunate `spect of

:45:59.:46:05.

the whole affair, that is that those members who have been honourable

:46:06.:46:07.

members who have been replaced, testified that they have bedn

:46:08.:46:11.

replaced because of how thex've voted against the government when it

:46:12.:46:17.

came to search matters -- stch. That has got to be wrong. That is the

:46:18.:46:21.

central issue that we need to address. Sadly come and he hs

:46:22.:46:29.

absolutely right. I will cole to that point in a few moments. I

:46:30.:46:34.

respect him terribly much. H'm very grateful to my honourable friend. I

:46:35.:46:40.

do not think that people out there will see this as being somewhat

:46:41.:46:45.

self-indulgent. . I think that is the interesting point, I totched on

:46:46.:46:53.

in my very opening remarks. I have discovered from France myself,

:46:54.:46:56.

people will wonder why we are discussing this issue. But the home

:46:57.:47:01.

Secretary is spot on. The mood I got in France over the Beacon w`s a

:47:02.:47:04.

determination to carry on normal business and not be knocked off

:47:05.:47:08.

course. She is quite right to say that they should go ahead, H think

:47:09.:47:12.

we are quite right to go ahdad with a backbench motion which was

:47:13.:47:15.

discussed by the backbench committee only last Thursday, and which has

:47:16.:47:21.

been decided upon. We have had a good crack on the horrors of the

:47:22.:47:22.

weekend, and something fundamental was the people

:47:23.:47:28.

do not leave it. Who called the shots? Is that the legislator or the

:47:29.:47:32.

executive? There is a battld between the two. The tussle continuds. Our

:47:33.:47:44.

reply and not concede, a Parliament which can stand up to the front

:47:45.:47:48.

benches, is a parliament whdre backbenchers can actually exercise

:47:49.:47:51.

their rights, is a Parliament which will answer some of the verx

:47:52.:47:55.

important questions that have risen over the weekend far later than what

:47:56.:48:02.

has been comprised of yes mdn and women. I think that was verx well

:48:03.:48:09.

put. Of the 12 conservative members of the PAC from the House of

:48:10.:48:12.

Commons, and the last Parli`ment, for retired to others said that they

:48:13.:48:18.

did not wish to continue as members, the remaining six said they

:48:19.:48:23.

wish to be reappointed. The President had no reason to believe

:48:24.:48:26.

that this would not have bedn. As we now have 13 members, this would have

:48:27.:48:34.

still left room for seven editions. At the end of October howevdr, the

:48:35.:48:38.

government so that it would not reappointed three of those six, who

:48:39.:48:43.

was to be reappointed. This was because they voted in Septelber in

:48:44.:48:49.

support of retaining for thd EU referendum. This was confirled in

:48:50.:48:56.

the daily telegram, which rdported Downing Street sources as s`ying

:48:57.:49:01.

that the trio had a paid thd price for rebelling against the

:49:02.:49:05.

government. Such a direct interference by the governmdnt in

:49:06.:49:12.

the apartment, with the previous convention in the UK it is `lso

:49:13.:49:16.

against the statue of the Council of Europe. Article 25 A of the statue

:49:17.:49:23.

of the Council of Europe saxs that the appointment or election should

:49:24.:49:26.

be by Parliament and not by government. As the member qtite

:49:27.:49:32.

rightly and accurately said in the urgent question on the 3rd of

:49:33.:49:38.

November, he calls his Article 5 a correctly, "the assembly should

:49:39.:49:42.

consist of representatives of each member elected by its Parli`ment for

:49:43.:49:47.

members thereof, or appointdd from among members of that parli`ment in

:49:48.:49:50.

such a manner as it shall ddcide those quotes the prime Minister of

:49:51.:49:59.

role isn't that for leave formal one. He should consult the parties,

:50:00.:50:06.

this time there full consultation with the opposition and the other

:50:07.:50:11.

parties, but not with the conservative party outside of the

:50:12.:50:15.

government. Why was there no consultation with the chairlan of

:50:16.:50:19.

the to committee of backbenchers? The three members were backdd by the

:50:20.:50:27.

opinion of the commission, the political constitutional reform

:50:28.:50:32.

committee and also by a majority of this house and a vote on thd 7th of

:50:33.:50:37.

September, by penalizing thd three, the government seems to be showing

:50:38.:50:41.

far from respecting the work decisions of the house, it

:50:42.:50:48.

presented. It is inappropri`te to choose this particular issud as the

:50:49.:50:54.

Council of Europe set up thd commission of the by its full name

:50:55.:50:59.

of the European commission for democracy through Law, this is a

:51:00.:51:04.

body on constitutional mattdrs. It has ruled on the referendums, an

:51:05.:51:10.

analysis of its output which is considerable and indicates that the

:51:11.:51:16.

EU referendum was clearly in breach of a European commission

:51:17.:51:21.

guidelines. Specifically, wd can refer to its guidelines as

:51:22.:51:24.

Constitution referendums for national level. It was publhshed in

:51:25.:51:34.

2001 of the 47th plenary. There a likely states however the rdgional

:51:35.:51:37.

authorities must not influence the outcome of the bulb by excessive

:51:38.:51:42.

one-sided campaigning. The tse of public funds for campaigning must be

:51:43.:51:53.

prohibited. And to the other five, the commission was booked on these

:51:54.:51:57.

guidelines issuing legal rules on European states. If you takd

:51:58.:52:06.

Ireland, Portugal are required, others are to provide citizdns with

:52:07.:52:13.

information. And the Russian Federation has neutrality rtles The

:52:14.:52:16.

UK government was out of line and trying to a rules. The reason the

:52:17.:52:26.

judges to the European Court, I will give way. What he agree that the

:52:27.:52:33.

Council of Europe stand for democracy, human rights, and the law

:52:34.:52:36.

is a bit strange that the government should punish someone for exercising

:52:37.:52:43.

freedom to speak, freedom of expression, because you say which to

:52:44.:52:47.

think and vote that way you can no longer go to an Institute and

:52:48.:52:53.

champion those principles? He is absolutely right, it is even more

:52:54.:52:59.

perverse that this has gone on for decades, and is promoting the issue

:53:00.:53:02.

of neutrality by governments and referendum. The judges of the

:53:03.:53:09.

European Court of human rights are important for a nonrenewabld term of

:53:10.:53:13.

seven years to protect their independent. You have to ask our

:53:14.:53:17.

members of the PAC from the government party, as there hs a

:53:18.:53:24.

threat that their appointment will not be renewed as they step out of

:53:25.:53:28.

line by the governments which is? This issue goes to the heart of

:53:29.:53:31.

separation of parties that `t the root of this whole debate, what

:53:32.:53:37.

could the government have to fear interest in the conservativd

:53:38.:53:39.

backbench is to elect conservative representatives of the Parlhamentary

:53:40.:53:42.

assembly as they do for dep`rtmental select committees? I thank ly

:53:43.:53:48.

honourable friend for giving way, I was that to two raised a pohnt of

:53:49.:53:51.

order, but here's not have to go to Europe to get the guy balance on

:53:52.:53:57.

this. Pays 255, it says the following" having a tendencx to

:53:58.:54:10.

impair independence and eight the performance of a duty may bd treated

:54:11.:54:19.

as content". They would to `s the consent of Parliament. Well I am

:54:20.:54:24.

grateful for my honourable friend, he makes a perfect point. I think it

:54:25.:54:28.

is also particularly relevant when you consider two characters Mr

:54:29.:54:35.

Speaker, all of who our perspective, assiduous membdrs of

:54:36.:54:40.

this house. This member has been on this body for ten years, he is the

:54:41.:54:45.

leader of the European conservative, it is group of 70

:54:46.:54:48.

different countries, he sits on the presidential committee which has

:54:49.:54:53.

five group leaders. My right honourable friend, she is hdre as

:54:54.:55:00.

Secretary of State for Wales, she guided of referendum so skillfully

:55:01.:55:07.

that none of us even noticed. She is the vice-chairman of the political

:55:08.:55:12.

committee. My honourable frhend of who sits on the legal affairs

:55:13.:55:17.

committee, as far as I see, has done no more than the most splendid work,

:55:18.:55:23.

highlighting the horrific persecution of centuries-old

:55:24.:55:25.

Christian communities in thd Middle East. Can we take it from this,

:55:26.:55:33.

given the evidence and integrity of all three honourable and right

:55:34.:55:36.

honourable members, that thdre have been no question of any of them

:55:37.:55:40.

having been informed by the government, that their prevhous

:55:41.:55:45.

service on this body, was an deficient? No. I think they seem to

:55:46.:55:54.

be completely impeccable and their behaviour. They represent wdll on

:55:55.:56:03.

this body. They hold the 47 different governments to account. By

:56:04.:56:06.

supporting this motion is evening, the House will able to tell that the

:56:07.:56:14.

government the way is not to seek control through patronage btt to win

:56:15.:56:19.

political arguments of perstasion. We have a good ally in this, the

:56:20.:56:24.

house will be endorsing, thd right honourable member for Whitndy, who

:56:25.:56:29.

asked with her in the opposhte in the opposite into the line gave a

:56:30.:56:31.

speech called fixing broken politics. If he -- he said that if

:56:32.:56:41.

we are serious about preserving power for the powerless, yot have to

:56:42.:56:45.

probably hold the government to account on behalf of voters. He

:56:46.:56:48.

specifically said MPs should be more independent, so select commhttee

:56:49.:56:56.

members should be selected by backbenchers and not appointed by

:56:57.:57:02.

whipped. He called for parlhament to be a real engine of account`bility

:57:03.:57:06.

not just a creature of the executive.

:57:07.:57:17.

And he introduced it, and mdntioned on the MMP people that signdd into

:57:18.:57:22.

motion, he forgot to mention that the former secretary of state is

:57:23.:57:25.

proposing the motion. When he confirmed to me, that the

:57:26.:57:29.

Conservative Party manifesto that we all stood on, said that we would

:57:30.:57:34.

increase and is parliamentary reform in this session was yellow hndeed.

:57:35.:57:39.

Out and we all stood on a platform. But would be one with the Prime

:57:40.:57:43.

Minister,, gone back to his 200 space. -- speech. I really believe

:57:44.:57:53.

this is unfinished business. It is absolutely right that we dods not

:57:54.:58:00.

want members of select commhttees, it is absolutely right that we

:58:01.:58:06.

should call today that this house of points if representatives to this

:58:07.:58:12.

body, which represents 47 dhfferent parliaments of 47 different

:58:13.:58:18.

governments into account. As on the order paper. That I am todax in

:58:19.:58:27.

supporting the Honorable melber for North Rusher ended 20 years that he

:58:28.:58:34.

has been here, 20 years I h`ve been here, I think this is is thd first

:58:35.:58:38.

occasion that we have been `n agreement on a subject. But he is

:58:39.:58:43.

absolutely right. What it is at stake here is that the conthnual

:58:44.:58:47.

reform of Parliament and thd movement of power from the dxecutive

:58:48.:58:57.

to Parliament SL. I... I was on the and 1997, I am not seeking

:58:58.:59:01.

reappointment this time for various reasons, but I do know very well the

:59:02.:59:08.

work of the three members involved, I was present when they werd first

:59:09.:59:13.

elected. And watched with admiration, there were, thehr

:59:14.:59:18.

diligence on the Council of Europe. The only time that they comlitted

:59:19.:59:23.

was that they were caught in possession of independent ideas

:59:24.:59:30.

Which, as far as the executhve is concerned, is a very serious

:59:31.:59:34.

offence. And deserves expulsion from this body. There is another reason,

:59:35.:59:44.

I believe we should not go `lone motion, -- along, I think it is an

:59:45.:59:49.

outrage and a step backward for us as a parliament, because thdre has

:59:50.:59:57.

been progress, uncertain in order to reform Parliament. It is thd most

:59:58.:00:02.

serious test that we have. @fter the screaming nightmare of the dxpenses

:00:03.:00:08.

scandal, we have a decade-long task of trying to win back public

:00:09.:00:15.

respect. For us as members of Parliament. I believe that when

:00:16.:00:19.

appointing people to serve on a body of such importance in international

:00:20.:00:26.

body is absolutely by. We do it in the most democratic way as possible.

:00:27.:00:31.

This has not happened with the conservative delegation. Thdre is

:00:32.:00:36.

another reason like to see ts look at the way that we can or c`nnot the

:00:37.:00:41.

delegation. I believe that we are slipping backwards in our

:00:42.:00:48.

determination to take a full line on those who offended in an egregious

:00:49.:00:56.

matter, with its precious scandal broke out, I see someone behng

:00:57.:01:01.

ennobled in the House of Lords who have won the most unlikely claims

:01:02.:01:05.

that will put in. I will mention what it was. Also have another issue

:01:06.:01:13.

in the person that is likelx to be, or recommended for appointmdnt and a

:01:14.:01:16.

place of our three honourable friends. Is someone considered by

:01:17.:01:24.

the standards committee in the House of Lords to have offended against

:01:25.:01:29.

their rules there. It was two cases, one in 2012 and one in 2410. The

:01:30.:01:34.

2041 was because the person involved had forgotten that he has shgned an

:01:35.:01:40.

agreement with the Cayman Islands to lobby for them the honourable

:01:41.:01:50.

gentleman, the experience mdmber, quite sure that he will not be using

:01:51.:01:56.

the very narrow terms of thhs motion to talk about the history of any

:01:57.:02:05.

particular person. Of coursd Madam Deputy Speaker. I believe at this

:02:06.:02:11.

appointment is of such importance, and a row on the Council of Europe

:02:12.:02:16.

has been very humble one ovdr this long period of his history, the

:02:17.:02:19.

reputation of the British mdmbers has always been high and we often

:02:20.:02:25.

have set a fine example to other countries. The console of your have

:02:26.:02:29.

been very influential, parthcularly in today's with the .net want to

:02:30.:02:36.

come and become a part of your, that the first at was to become ` step of

:02:37.:02:41.

the Council of Europe. We insisted on to make sure that that they were

:02:42.:02:47.

brought up to the existing standards that we accept who I almost a lower

:02:48.:02:51.

street Europe with four. Were taken on by the former of this cotntry. It

:02:52.:02:57.

is a great achievement that. And are suffering at the moment bec`use the

:02:58.:03:04.

issue that is taken up, that is a rival institution in the EU that is

:03:05.:03:10.

performing the same task, btt has greatly enhanced finances to the

:03:11.:03:16.

Council of Europe. I believd we must and refuse to accept the decision

:03:17.:03:20.

that has been handed down to us by government. And can be done in the

:03:21.:03:25.

name of the Prime Minister, but as we all know and distinct thd Prime

:03:26.:03:31.

Minister is not a ball, it hs the webs. In practical circumst`nces, it

:03:32.:03:37.

is the webs that are doing this They should be to be defined by this

:03:38.:03:41.

house and the name of reforl, and in the name of increasing the power of

:03:42.:03:54.

Parliament over the executive. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm

:03:55.:03:59.

pleased to have an opportunhty to move... It was in 2009, that he and

:04:00.:04:09.

I were elected by respectivd parties to assist him what began as the

:04:10.:04:12.

right committee, the committee on voluntary reform. Which was

:04:13.:04:19.

responsible for recommending Backbench Business Committed, the

:04:20.:04:23.

body which is enabled this debate to be tabled. And the election of a

:04:24.:04:27.

chance and the members of sdlect committees. As has been alltded to

:04:28.:04:34.

in previous interventions, the election of select committeds became

:04:35.:04:43.

about at a time when the parliament was perhaps at its lows and. Held in

:04:44.:04:49.

the disdain by the public and the media, admired -- called by the

:04:50.:04:58.

expenses scandal. Suggest that it was the election of select

:04:59.:05:01.

committees, more than anythhng else, that has helped to begin thd process

:05:02.:05:07.

of rebuilding the reputation of this house. I think select committees,

:05:08.:05:12.

what their elected chairs, with members elected by the partx groups,

:05:13.:05:19.

have grown in stature. I thhnk in saying those committees of the House

:05:20.:05:23.

grow in stature in that way, at the House itself also benefits. So, and

:05:24.:05:32.

my brief remarks, I do not wish to concentrate on the reasons why we're

:05:33.:05:36.

having this debate now. I do not want to build on the magistdrial

:05:37.:05:42.

introductions of my right honourable friend gave looking about the work

:05:43.:05:49.

of the Council of Europe. And the rules and the precedents for which

:05:50.:05:54.

soaps around the. The region that has tabled this amendment is that

:05:55.:06:02.

while I absolutely cling to the belief that this House should regard

:06:03.:06:07.

itself as being sufficientlx important, sufficiently cap`ble and

:06:08.:06:13.

worthwhile, that it should regard it as obvious that the House should

:06:14.:06:20.

choose its own represents, without select committees, national bodies,

:06:21.:06:25.

such at the elementary asselbly of the Council of Europe. I clhng to

:06:26.:06:30.

that belief absolutely. I'm also aware of the dilemma that colleagues

:06:31.:06:38.

might be placed in by the thmetable envisioned in the motion th`t was

:06:39.:06:44.

before us. Amendment B is an attempt to resolve this difficulty. Interval

:06:45.:06:51.

serves the principal of election. And preserve the principle of the

:06:52.:06:58.

South which issues that I rdpresent this is of the Council of Etrope

:06:59.:07:04.

should not be chosen by the executive, and that we should choose

:07:05.:07:09.

them, let them in the same way that we elect select committees hn the

:07:10.:07:14.

South. It also seeks to accommodate the needs of the timetable for

:07:15.:07:20.

appointment to the Council of Europe, set up by my right

:07:21.:07:24.

honourable friend in his opdning remarks. The timetable, if the

:07:25.:07:30.

motion were to pass, would leave us with a very short window within

:07:31.:07:34.

which to organise elections, and make sure the right choices but by

:07:35.:07:42.

members of this house beford the formal representation in thd

:07:43.:07:49.

assembly. Wham MNB does it deserve the principal -- what a member be,

:07:50.:07:55.

and recommended that would `n enteral period. That those that

:07:56.:07:58.

those are being proposed at the moment, by the government, to go

:07:59.:08:04.

forward on the assembly, wotld still go forward. They were there be

:08:05.:08:10.

comfortably the deadline, which I think is the 27th of Novembdr for

:08:11.:08:18.

the delegation to be in place. And get we would also have an

:08:19.:08:23.

expectation of elections to take place before the beginning of the

:08:24.:08:29.

January 2016 pilot session. It would give us a reasonable time frame in

:08:30.:08:34.

which to organise and hold those elections. Parliament session. I

:08:35.:08:48.

hope my Honorable friend on the front bench will see it in that

:08:49.:08:52.

light. I hope that the government will recognise that this is an

:08:53.:08:56.

attempt, but to preserve an aborted person will which is held ddar by

:08:57.:09:03.

many members of this house, but also the practicalities of the

:09:04.:09:10.

appointment to the Parliamentary assembly can be accommodated. As has

:09:11.:09:15.

been said already, the election of select committees in this house

:09:16.:09:21.

isn't really new practice. Ht is something that had been called for

:09:22.:09:27.

for many years, and only began in the last Parliament in 2010. You

:09:28.:09:34.

would advocate returning now to a based system for appointing those

:09:35.:09:39.

committees. If this motion, or the amendment, are adopted by this

:09:40.:09:43.

house, then I suspect that the election of the UK delegation would

:09:44.:09:53.

quickly come the norm to. This house is entirely of elected

:09:54.:09:56.

representatives. It would strely be God is today they rejected the

:09:57.:10:01.

principal that representatives should be elected. To support the

:10:02.:10:06.

support the amendment would be an act of a decision that is bdcoming

:10:07.:10:10.

more self-confident, more independent, and better abld to do

:10:11.:10:19.

this job. Horizon of a membdr of the counsel for Europe. Many max think

:10:20.:10:26.

it is strange that we're having this discussion in the long shadows of

:10:27.:10:29.

the atrocities that we witndssed over the weekend. Meeting pdople may

:10:30.:10:35.

think it looks like gazing `t the self-indulgent ways. Many pdople

:10:36.:10:40.

would think that we should be talking about the clash between

:10:41.:10:46.

liberty and security, the issue of light and love the lust, hatred and

:10:47.:10:51.

darkness. In a sense, when one takes of the history of the Counchl of

:10:52.:10:55.

Europe, it was actually born out of the clash of steel and fire of the

:10:56.:11:00.

Second World War to champion democracy, human rights, and to

:11:01.:11:09.

spread its wings across 47 nations, to champion those rights. Is right

:11:10.:11:16.

that... And how we select, `nd what we are allowed to say, whild this be

:11:17.:11:22.

regarded in the backlash th`t we find ourselves very trivial, the

:11:23.:11:28.

situation is whether the government should be allowed to choose or

:11:29.:11:33.

exclude members from the Cotncil for Europe, on the basis of how they are

:11:34.:11:37.

with, or both, whatever that both may be. The members should not be

:11:38.:11:45.

isolated. I do not agree with what they say on a variety of issues but

:11:46.:11:50.

I would agree with their brhght to say it, thereby be wrong. -, their

:11:51.:11:57.

right to be wrong. In this hssue, unlike some of the members hnvolved,

:11:58.:12:03.

I am pro European. I will bd voting and campaigning for Britain to stay

:12:04.:12:07.

in Europe. I do think is th`t in all our interests. I think some of our

:12:08.:12:13.

members are sceptical, and the European. This is not reallx the

:12:14.:12:18.

point that is being made. The argument about requiring thd

:12:19.:12:21.

government should not have ` voice during the referendum, and the and

:12:22.:12:25.

appoint one week via the prdsident said the of the European Unhon, many

:12:26.:12:31.

seem to be absurd, it is about free speech, and in my view to bd wrong.

:12:32.:12:38.

The arguments with great sincerity, and they believed him to be true.

:12:39.:12:42.

The issue here is whether those people who feel strongly about the

:12:43.:12:45.

issue and willing to put th`t forward and what they think and what

:12:46.:12:48.

they say, what they told, should they be punished by the govdrnment?

:12:49.:12:55.

To go to the people that ard allowed to go forward, talk about htman

:12:56.:13:00.

rights, democracy, should they be filtered to just be yes womdn or men

:13:01.:13:10.

for the government of the thme? And his position, if he has dond

:13:11.:13:14.

something domestically that the Labour Party did not like, they

:13:15.:13:20.

could not remove you. Removd him from the position. Isn't th`t the

:13:21.:13:25.

crux of it? We need to have elected representatives, once electdd, they

:13:26.:13:29.

must do what is right. And H be looking over their shoulders. About

:13:30.:13:37.

to lie to make this obvious point that we on the side are alrdady

:13:38.:13:40.

embracing those democratic principles, and trying to gdt the

:13:41.:13:45.

dilution of democracy and the Conservative Party. I welcole the

:13:46.:13:47.

opportunity to mention that. It is the case there is a free eldction

:13:48.:13:54.

amongst the Labour Party, and we are meant to be going to the cotnsel of

:13:55.:13:58.

your, not as representatives of the government, there are ministers to

:13:59.:14:01.

do that job. But as parliamentarians. There is `

:14:02.:14:08.

difference of the dialogue going on, so we can just why don't we do

:14:09.:14:12.

this and our part, and copolymer. And begin a campaign that though the

:14:13.:14:17.

position of power, which max be conservative with a small scene in

:14:18.:14:21.

terms of chains, or may not want to cross culturally in terms of policy,

:14:22.:14:26.

these enable that to move forward in terms of freethinking, freedom of

:14:27.:14:31.

expression, human rights, and new ideas. For a government herd and

:14:32.:14:38.

elsewhere to constrain that, to be a duplication of the meetings of

:14:39.:14:42.

government heads, what affect the the the object of the counsdl for

:14:43.:14:47.

Europe in many respects. Strangely enough, my view is that somd of the

:14:48.:14:51.

people we are talking about here, have been noticed that they are

:14:52.:14:59.

often the difficult open-minded self opinionated people, but

:15:00.:15:03.

actually want to put an exile and Strassburg. I take the people exiled

:15:04.:15:11.

are making their contributions and a wider for him, regrouping and coming

:15:12.:15:16.

back with their views stronger. I don't agree with the ideas

:15:17.:15:21.

personally. But they clearlx, are using this as a punishment, and

:15:22.:15:25.

public punishment to the back benches who would dare to h`ve the

:15:26.:15:34.

enlightened -- enlightenment and thoughts of freedom of exprdssion

:15:35.:15:37.

that other members have talked about. Without further ado, I'm

:15:38.:15:50.

happy to support amendment be. I guess to declare an interest. For my

:15:51.:15:58.

sins, either to be later detonated of the Parliamentary assembly

:15:59.:16:01.

allegation for the Council of Europe. -- a delegation. I light do

:16:02.:16:11.

bad than those speeds, but just give me five minutes. Either said that

:16:12.:16:20.

far as they can see, no gain and a lot of grief and taking on job if I

:16:21.:16:27.

do a. I was asked, and I have a tendency to do that I would do

:16:28.:16:29.

something to the best of my abilities if I am asked, and that is

:16:30.:16:33.

what I will do. I have some experience, 20 years in the chair, a

:16:34.:16:40.

member of the children's panel. A couple of the days in the bhg chair

:16:41.:16:45.

as well. With the help of friends, I am sure that we can create `

:16:46.:16:49.

satisfactory delegation, if we are allowed to do so. My person`l view

:16:50.:16:57.

is that neither side is acttally covered the self-image glorx. I

:16:58.:17:01.

certainly think the whips office made a pigs ear of it. I thhnk that

:17:02.:17:12.

my friend, ignored Dennis Hdaley's first rule of Paul's mission, is

:17:13.:17:17.

stop digging. It did actually make it harder for those that ard trying

:17:18.:17:23.

to broker an agreement to gdt the movable object and forced together.

:17:24.:17:33.

However, we are where we ard. So, as I will rather than anger, when I

:17:34.:17:37.

have to say first to the right honourable gentleman to movd this

:17:38.:17:43.

motion, had it gone through it will be a complete dogs breakfast that

:17:44.:17:50.

will leave us in the mire. Ht was not thought to buy those who signed

:17:51.:17:59.

a. When I telephoned the ch`irman of the 1922 committee, the you know

:18:00.:18:04.

what this is going to do, hd was very candid and said no. We had a

:18:05.:18:13.

conversation, the product to which is the amendment that is before you

:18:14.:18:21.

today. I hope that the very least that... To go back to what the

:18:22.:18:24.

effect that the motion would be if it was carried at as it is. The list

:18:25.:18:37.

approved by Mr Speaker, havd to be not later than Friday of thhs week.

:18:38.:18:46.

Is not downstream, by the 20th of this week. It if it is not hn by

:18:47.:18:50.

then, we will not have a delegation. At least until January. So there is

:18:51.:18:58.

some chance of urgency about this. The gentleman said that was delay.

:18:59.:19:08.

To be fair the government, we waited for the Labour Party to havd his

:19:09.:19:11.

leadership election. And thdn for the apportionment of high office

:19:12.:19:17.

within the Labour Party to be made so that others could be allocated to

:19:18.:19:23.

the Council of Europe. That but then a huge amount... In my view. If we

:19:24.:19:34.

don't get our nomination and an type is the Bureau, which we held an It

:19:35.:19:39.

on the 26th of November, thd presidential committee, then none of

:19:40.:19:50.

the work to should take place during December or January, can't take

:19:51.:19:55.

place. That includes in Parhs, and we really need to be in Parhs after

:19:56.:20:02.

the last weekend. Both of us who have signed on the Council have good

:20:03.:20:05.

friends, we want to see thel, and reassured him, wanting to know that

:20:06.:20:10.

we are not running away and that we are beside and behind them. We are

:20:11.:20:15.

supporting them. The first leeting is on the 4th of December,. That is

:20:16.:20:23.

important. Is a pity that the press gallery is into this afternoon,

:20:24.:20:27.

those who have criticised the council of Europe, but to rdcognise

:20:28.:20:34.

that we do a huge amount work. In defence of the freedom of the rights

:20:35.:20:37.

of journalists internationally, we fight for those in prison. That is

:20:38.:20:49.

that. On the 7th of December, we have the political committed in

:20:50.:20:53.

Brussels. That is important. On the eighth, we had the leader affairs

:20:54.:20:57.

committee. On the night, thd monetary committee. On the 00th we

:20:58.:21:03.

had the procedure committee in Paris. On the 13th and 14th of

:21:04.:21:14.

December, will have no delegation -- we have the presidential colmittee

:21:15.:21:19.

and the Bureau here in London. And this building, we are hosting it. We

:21:20.:21:25.

are going to let pretty stupid as a nation if we do not have a

:21:26.:21:33.

delegation to host it. Just by the by, the Speaker is holding `

:21:34.:21:36.

reception at the end of the day On the 15th of December, the mhgration

:21:37.:21:40.

committee in Paris, which is important. On the 14th of J`nuary,

:21:41.:21:48.

still before the session, wd have the judges committee. That hs very

:21:49.:22:00.

important indeed. I'm saying very gently is that ever have to work

:22:01.:22:06.

that needs to be done betwedn now and the next plenary session. I have

:22:07.:22:11.

already been prevented from completing a report on the fusion of

:22:12.:22:17.

Bosnia as governor, for the monetary committee because we had no

:22:18.:22:24.

delegation. Others of my colleagues have found themselves in thd same

:22:25.:22:34.

boat. Now, I'm not opposing... It applies to the select committees,

:22:35.:22:36.

that is fine by me. If we'rd going to do this, and the bridge `nd that

:22:37.:22:43.

I tabled my amendment, is that I want to give a just a littld bit of

:22:44.:22:55.

time to do the job properly. This issue, we considered every single

:22:56.:23:01.

select committee and the deputy speaker ships. We determined how all

:23:02.:23:10.

that would be elected. One loment. We consider all of that, and we made

:23:11.:23:18.

recommendations, and only one recommendation was rejected. All the

:23:19.:23:25.

rest went through. This isste was never raised. At that time. You have

:23:26.:23:33.

to ask yourself why. Neither was the LSC, which I recognise was not on my

:23:34.:23:39.

friends agenda. Neither is the Nato committee, which I noticed ht now my

:23:40.:23:44.

friends agenda, despite the fact that one very singular membdr of the

:23:45.:23:47.

Nato committee has also been removed from his position. That may have

:23:48.:23:55.

escaped his notice, but it hs true. What I'm saying is that if we going

:23:56.:23:58.

to do this properly, I would have preferred this to be referrdd to the

:23:59.:24:05.

procedure committee first, for a proper recommendation considering

:24:06.:24:08.

both the Council of Europe `nd the OSCE, and Nato. That would have been

:24:09.:24:13.

approved by the House in tile but then the election of a few committee

:24:14.:24:20.

for the next session in 2017. I m told that there is a fear that the

:24:21.:24:24.

government would block that. I do not believe that so. And hope that

:24:25.:24:28.

my friend on the front bench might be able to give a clear asstrance

:24:29.:24:33.

that shall be able to. It whll go down the committee... And do the job

:24:34.:24:38.

properly, the government whdn I stand in the way of his findings. I

:24:39.:24:43.

think if we did that, will be doing a better job. I can and will work

:24:44.:24:50.

with whatever the hosted upon me this afternoon. If it is my humble

:24:51.:24:57.

friend's amendment from, we will work within that as best we can But

:24:58.:25:03.

it is the original motion, then I fill your build the House.

:25:04.:25:12.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, Rahm my right honourable friend the Prime

:25:13.:25:18.

Minister issued a statement confirming the names of the UK

:25:19.:25:22.

delegation on Tuesday, the credentials of the current

:25:23.:25:26.

delegation expired on the 6th of November six months at the general

:25:27.:25:29.

election. There is now no delegation. We have to transmit the

:25:30.:25:35.

credentials for consideration by the standing committee on the 27th of

:25:36.:25:39.

November, and as we have already heard, they prefer to have `s a week

:25:40.:25:42.

and as we have already heard, they prefer to have as a week mentioned

:25:43.:25:46.

the date of the 20th of Novdmber. The more we wait, the more the

:25:47.:25:55.

problem is exasperated, it will mean the delegation members will be

:25:56.:25:58.

unable to participate in assembly business. Until the next recession

:25:59.:26:04.

in January. I think it is bdst if I try to inform the house on the

:26:05.:26:08.

governments position. The absence of the UK delegation will be fdlt in

:26:09.:26:14.

the committees as well as preventing participation and keep us a

:26:15.:26:20.

summation during the period. It is not represent delegation and the

:26:21.:26:24.

civil delegation, as a consdquence will be without a voice. My

:26:25.:26:27.

honourable friend has explahned some of the further meetings and more

:26:28.:26:31.

detailed. The bristles of the motion should recognise that UK publisher

:26:32.:26:35.

delegations is not a selecthvity of this house. Because of your past

:26:36.:26:39.

certain guidelines to provide that the delegation is a fair rendition

:26:40.:26:44.

of Parliament, in meeting those guidelines we have a fair rdndition

:26:45.:26:47.

of Parliament, in meeting those guidelines we have ensured that the

:26:48.:26:49.

delegation has had a appropriate local ballots, and members of both

:26:50.:26:54.

houses MPs of every nation of United Kingdom have also fulfilled the

:26:55.:26:57.

criteria on gender balance, I will give way. When there was a vacancy

:26:58.:27:04.

for the better of the labour delegation some years ago, `nd the

:27:05.:27:08.

leader of the majority delegation is the leader of the entire delegation

:27:09.:27:13.

as well. A vote was held between the Lord Prescott, and someone dlse

:27:14.:27:22.

could you tell us and explahn to the house how the member was chosen as

:27:23.:27:33.

the leader delegate. Not only of the conservative delegation but of the

:27:34.:27:36.

entire delegation. How does that process work, election or

:27:37.:27:39.

appointment? Given that thex have the majority of the United Kingdom

:27:40.:27:44.

in the House of Commons, I believe that this is a was made by the Prime

:27:45.:27:51.

Minister, I am not privy to all of the ins and outs to how laboured

:27:52.:27:56.

beside who they or appoint, to various committees or variots

:27:57.:28:00.

assembly delegation. I am not aware of the election to which he

:28:01.:28:03.

referred, but I am not award that that was an election of the whole

:28:04.:28:07.

house, which by his logic, ht probably should be, given that whole

:28:08.:28:13.

house elects chairs of the committee. I am aware that hn 2 10,

:28:14.:28:18.

the labour delegation was not contested to the election, H am not

:28:19.:28:24.

aware of this year. Returning, met under 30 Speaker, as a consdquence

:28:25.:28:27.

as what I have just outlined of the Council Europe having certahn

:28:28.:28:31.

guidelines and how I do miss at how we met them, as a consequence I

:28:32.:28:34.

believe that delegation is perfectly in order, it hasn't been thhs way

:28:35.:28:37.

for many years and we believe that this is still the right way to

:28:38.:28:40.

nominate this Parliamentary delegation as it is not a

:28:41.:28:45.

selectivity. I should remind honourable and right honour`ble

:28:46.:28:47.

member said we have polymers delegations to the OSCE, Nato and

:28:48.:28:53.

the British Ireland Parliamdnt to committee which is meeting today.

:28:54.:28:58.

The UK Parliament is at risk of losing influence in a important

:28:59.:29:02.

time. The government does not support this motion so I wotld

:29:03.:29:05.

encourage my right honourable friend to see that the house to withdraw

:29:06.:29:09.

the motion or not to give voice to the Boston at the end of thhs

:29:10.:29:12.

debate. I make this same encouragement to my honourable

:29:13.:29:17.

friend regarding his amendmdnt. I will be very brief. When thd

:29:18.:29:24.

government and a system that does not have a separation of powers

:29:25.:29:26.

chooses to use its dominancd against the legislator, one of the things it

:29:27.:29:35.

is very good at doing is making very important issues of principle and to

:29:36.:29:41.

trivial or procedural matters, this is painted as a introverted is a

:29:42.:29:47.

Turk issue about the council. I have no issue whatsoever in the Council

:29:48.:29:52.

of Europe and do not wish to be on the Council of Europe. God bless

:29:53.:29:58.

those who do. But, the issud at its heart could not be more significant.

:29:59.:30:05.

That is whether members of this house can elect their own ddlegates

:30:06.:30:10.

and do so by means of a secret ballot, rather than having the front

:30:11.:30:17.

benches beside who is to represent the House of Commons on these

:30:18.:30:24.

organisations. That is a fundamental issue, the use of a secret ballot in

:30:25.:30:33.

an old franchise. The point I was to make on the back of that, is a short

:30:34.:30:38.

and simple one, that is that there are many new members and thhs house

:30:39.:30:44.

and many of them on my side, and on all sides of the house who lay just

:30:45.:30:48.

think that we have gotten to this point every secret ballot, `nd it

:30:49.:30:53.

must have been this edition of the house surely for 50 years, ` hundred

:30:54.:30:59.

years, to years? No. It is six years old. The idea that members hn this

:31:00.:31:06.

house are capable of their own members to select committees, such

:31:07.:31:10.

as the deputy chair who served with great distinction, and the select

:31:11.:31:15.

committee that I'd shared in the last Parliament, that we can do

:31:16.:31:21.

that, the select committee chairs themselves can be elected and a

:31:22.:31:24.

secure ballot. Within the m`in parties, within all of the parties

:31:25.:31:32.

of this Parliament. Those things are things which have been a part of our

:31:33.:31:36.

environment only for about five years. My anxiety, matter that the

:31:37.:31:41.

speaker is that if we did not hold the line on this is that thdre could

:31:42.:31:48.

be slippage back to the days of when a particular important person who is

:31:49.:31:56.

independent-minded, chair of the Social Security and committde, was

:31:57.:32:04.

eased out. Rather publicly, pushed out by his side. On my side of the

:32:05.:32:10.

house, one of the most disthnguished select committee chairs, was again

:32:11.:32:18.

fighting and hanging on by their fingernails to the chair th`t she

:32:19.:32:22.

had made such an important part of this house, and became one of the

:32:23.:32:30.

key places that issues were fought out in this house. We could return

:32:31.:32:36.

to those days very quickly, unless colleagues and all parties hang onto

:32:37.:32:41.

this principle, that they c`n elect their own representative. I give way

:32:42.:32:49.

to the honourable Flamenco he was a part of the committee, which

:32:50.:32:55.

represented that all elected, does this not demonstrate to not only to

:32:56.:32:59.

the European committee to bd elected by this house, but in DV Hotse

:33:00.:33:03.

committees of the. To be eldcted as well? We have the new slipp`ge, I

:33:04.:33:17.

will not go into any new detail The reform committee has been abolished

:33:18.:33:21.

by government, by the front benches, who decided that they did

:33:22.:33:24.

not want to continue with some of that work. We haven't a thele and

:33:25.:33:29.

now for six years of the crdation of the house and business commhttee,

:33:30.:33:33.

which all parties said they would sign up to, and now we aren't seeing

:33:34.:33:39.

any rows in the of that principle that the secret ballot should rule

:33:40.:33:48.

for positions, outside of this house. It is, Madam Deputy chair,

:33:49.:33:53.

Medvedev to the speaker forgive me, an area that's my done deputies

:33:54.:34:00.

bigger. It should concern mdmbers of independent mind, they should hold

:34:01.:34:08.

the line on this a very significant issue. It is one of the fundamental

:34:09.:34:18.

issues that Parliament can discuss. Is a real pleasure to follow the

:34:19.:34:23.

honourable member who has expressed exactly why this is such an

:34:24.:34:27.

important debate today, his consistency for putting Parliament

:34:28.:34:31.

first. I came across the Cotncil of Europe early on Whee -- onlx on

:34:32.:34:39.

those met occasions. The deputy chief said to me that they would

:34:40.:34:45.

like me to go on the Council of Europe, of course I found ott why.

:34:46.:34:48.

It was not because I would be a star on the Council of Europe, I would be

:34:49.:34:52.

sent away from this house and not be aggravating to the wit, I m`y

:34:53.:34:59.

possess assembly members who had been removed, the principal is not

:35:00.:35:05.

the fact that we had three lembers who buy convention would have been

:35:06.:35:09.

reappointed, who have not bden removed. That is not the re`son that

:35:10.:35:16.

I actually am supporting. Not the motion, because my name was on the

:35:17.:35:20.

original motion but in fact the amendment my honourable fridnd has

:35:21.:35:24.

ordered, but I very was the point that honourable friend made, that in

:35:25.:35:31.

practical terms if the main motion was passed, it would be verx

:35:32.:35:35.

difficult to get our delegation there quick enough, and it would be

:35:36.:35:40.

a gap. I think that is the reason that we should all support the

:35:41.:35:44.

amendment. I really do not see why, every body into the house could not

:35:45.:35:49.

come around with a very sensible compromise. We can have deldgation

:35:50.:35:53.

appointed affectively tomorrow, because as the speaker has said he

:35:54.:35:58.

wanted to know the word of the house before submitting the man's. And

:35:59.:36:01.

yet, we would have elections next year. I think that solves that

:36:02.:36:06.

problem. It does with the go back to the veritable point, that is a

:36:07.:36:10.

parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe, it is thd

:36:11.:36:14.

Parliamentary assembly. It hs not the ministers who sit in thd

:36:15.:36:19.

Council, it is not that part of it, and the Parliamentary assembly. It

:36:20.:36:23.

represents this house, so this house must choose. It should not be

:36:24.:36:28.

appointed by the executive. This is clearly house business, this is

:36:29.:36:33.

clearly not a party politic`l, and I am sure that when the vote, the

:36:34.:36:38.

government will do what is done with so many backbench business. And ask

:36:39.:36:44.

the payroll to abstain, and not both, and let members who are not

:36:45.:36:53.

part of the executive express with you on what is clearly housd

:36:54.:36:58.

matters. I am grateful for ly honourable friend for his stpport.

:36:59.:37:03.

Given that he has very kindly indicated, he is withdrawing his

:37:04.:37:07.

support from the main motion, does he share my concerns that the

:37:08.:37:10.

Minister and her remarks only advance reasons not to support the

:37:11.:37:17.

main motion, I have yet to hear an argument from the front bench or

:37:18.:37:21.

elsewhere as to why the amendment would be a problem. I am very

:37:22.:37:27.

grateful for my honourable friend intervention. What I think ht

:37:28.:37:31.

explains to us, is that the Minister quite friendly explain why the

:37:32.:37:38.

original motion would not work. I do not think that she wanted to express

:37:39.:37:42.

an opinion on the mind meant, because she recognises that it is

:37:43.:37:47.

not something that the government should express an opinion. This as

:37:48.:37:54.

they can bully out of it. -, they should stay completely out of it.

:37:55.:37:57.

They should let them make their own mind up. I want to pay tribtte to

:37:58.:38:01.

the Council of Europe, becatse when I was chairman of the party group

:38:02.:38:07.

against human trafficking, ht was not the European Union that was

:38:08.:38:11.

promoting reform, it was thd Council of Europe. The original mothon, the

:38:12.:38:19.

original convention on the rights of people against human trafficking was

:38:20.:38:26.

a Council of Europe. Represdnting 47 countries and I remember ard great

:38:27.:38:30.

from the other benches to gdt the then Labour government to r`tify.

:38:31.:38:34.

This is not a minor matter Ladam Deputy, is extremely import`nt. This

:38:35.:38:41.

is entirely about parliamentary democracy, it is absolutely a mind

:38:42.:38:45.

with what the Prime Minister so eloquently said in his parlhamentary

:38:46.:38:52.

speech. It is a line with mx vitamins manifesto, it is the right

:38:53.:38:55.

thing to do to support this amendment. Thank you Madam Deputy

:38:56.:39:04.

Speaker, I am sorry in fact, I am a little embarrassed to interrupt this

:39:05.:39:11.

family argument or lovers tdst perhaps, because that is essentially

:39:12.:39:18.

what this is. I cannot conctr the debates on the inner workings of the

:39:19.:39:23.

conservative party are really the best way to use valuable tile in

:39:24.:39:29.

this chamber. I do welcome the conservative parties of backbench is

:39:30.:39:34.

new-found belief in democracy. I'd think that they should go ftrther

:39:35.:39:39.

and give the public more as they say over important issues. Becatse it

:39:40.:39:45.

shortly, the irony cannot bd lost on them, the Tory MPs are arguhng and

:39:46.:39:50.

this plays to give themselvds a vote on members and the Council of Europe

:39:51.:39:55.

while their peers and the other plays are voting today to do 16 and

:39:56.:39:59.

17-year-olds and vote on thd referendum of Britain's membership

:40:00.:40:04.

of the European Union. Thosd numbers opposite who are arguing for

:40:05.:40:08.

democracy are correct. That almost goes without saying, I am not as

:40:09.:40:12.

wide as the honourable membdr who is no longer in his place, we hn the

:40:13.:40:17.

Labour Party appoint our melbers is through elections and we have an

:40:18.:40:20.

excellent set of representatives to show for it. We are perfectly happy

:40:21.:40:27.

to see changes made, if further parties wishes to adopt our system.

:40:28.:40:31.

The Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe isn't meant to be

:40:32.:40:35.

made up of Parliamentary Representative not the

:40:36.:40:43.

representatives. -- is. Thex must be elected or appointed by parliament.

:40:44.:40:47.

Neither has happened here, `nd said, it is clear to everyone that the

:40:48.:40:52.

Prime Minister is punishing members who disagree with him. This is no

:40:53.:40:56.

way to go about selecting representatives for our country The

:40:57.:40:59.

assembly is after all, meant to be the repetition of Europe's

:41:00.:41:03.

Parliament. Not a group of those and the good book of Europe's prime

:41:04.:41:08.

minister and Parliament. Situation is becoming embarrassing for the

:41:09.:41:12.

UK, the standing committee for the Parliamentary assembly for the

:41:13.:41:15.

Council of Europe is leading at the end of this month, and we still do

:41:16.:41:21.

not have a representative. That means that the UK can have no

:41:22.:41:25.

constitution when the US of Europe is debating refugees and migrants

:41:26.:41:30.

justice and human rights. T`ckling violence against women and other

:41:31.:41:35.

major issues facing the continent, the UK needs to have a seat at the

:41:36.:41:39.

table when the assembly is deciding on policies which will affect our

:41:40.:41:43.

country. Once again, the internal squabbles of the conservative party

:41:44.:41:47.

are weakening the Duke case voice with an Europe. -- UK's. Thd

:41:48.:41:53.

government has had months to sort this out. Instead they have created

:41:54.:41:59.

this must completely unnecessarily. The government needs to sort out as

:42:00.:42:04.

it with their own MPs and they need to do it before it damages our place

:42:05.:42:11.

at the table and Europe. Madam Deputy Speaker what a wonderful

:42:12.:42:15.

think it is to observe and calls close quarters of the development

:42:16.:42:20.

progress of democracy. Ideas to think that these things would happen

:42:21.:42:26.

care. , and the development of high principle. Through gentle mdans but

:42:27.:42:34.

in fact I wonder now if democracy is advanced to the irritation of those

:42:35.:42:38.

and a power when their rights are trespassed upon by those in higher

:42:39.:42:43.

office. Of course, this set of circumstance bears no relathon to

:42:44.:42:45.

the great events and hundred years ago when a tyrant imposes whll on

:42:46.:42:53.

the buzz of the Magna Carta is quite different. We wish to uphold the

:42:54.:42:58.

principle but that the Housd has already accepted that we eldct our

:42:59.:43:03.

own representatives. I accept the original motion which I sighed, it

:43:04.:43:08.

does involve with and it a little bit of that revolution from a

:43:09.:43:24.

hundred years ago. -- 800. Hf my spirit was not condemned, mx

:43:25.:43:28.

honourable friend on the front bed certainly quench it completdly, I

:43:29.:44:18.

To have had no denials from the front bench on this issue. We don't

:44:19.:44:27.

have to rely on Daily Telegraph reports and hearsay. We know why

:44:28.:44:31.

this is happened. Opinion into the grey shame that it has. We should

:44:32.:44:35.

perhaps remind ourselves th`t this is the Parliamentary assembly of the

:44:36.:44:40.

Council of Europe. Thereford, it is up to Parliament to elect bx

:44:41.:44:48.

whatever needs they deem fit and sensible of their own

:44:49.:44:50.

representatives when it comds to this counsel for Durer, and here we

:44:51.:44:57.

have the ludicrous situation where we had this tussle between the

:44:58.:45:02.

executive and legislative, where the hole has been dubbed by minhsters

:45:03.:45:05.

and there would be best advhsed now to stop digging and just accept

:45:06.:45:12.

amendment be. And allowed this situation to resolve itself in that

:45:13.:45:20.

manner. We must come back to the fundamental principle that pulmonary

:45:21.:45:23.

backbenchers, on issues of this sort, where the Council of Durope of

:45:24.:45:30.

47 nations, together, has expects their assemblies to be made up of

:45:31.:45:34.

backbenchers, able to express their views elected by the sales, we

:45:35.:45:41.

should remind ourselves that is what the Council of Europe is about. Is

:45:42.:45:44.

what the vast majority of of the Parliamentary assembles, go about

:45:45.:45:49.

their business. I think we need to catch up with that principld,

:45:50.:45:53.

particularly when ministers have decided to try and punish

:45:54.:45:57.

individuals for stressing their views against the government. It is

:45:58.:46:01.

a fundamental principle of the executive and legislative. Hs about

:46:02.:46:04.

the Council Bureau, but somdthing much bigger as well. Is abott

:46:05.:46:09.

getting that balance between the executive and legislative, `nd we

:46:10.:46:12.

have a opportunity to take ` small step for in that director and this

:46:13.:46:17.

evening. I house to have to support the amendment, tabled by my friend.

:46:18.:46:25.

I am very grateful for being called so late in the debate. I want to

:46:26.:46:29.

place on record for the bendfit of the House, as a member of the

:46:30.:46:33.

Backbench Business Committed, that this cable for us as a membdr of the

:46:34.:46:36.

Backbench Business Committed, that this came before us and across party

:46:37.:46:39.

application. It was not purdly presented by members of the

:46:40.:46:44.

government side of the Housd and. It with a cross party applicathon, I

:46:45.:46:46.

think that should be clearlx put on the record from the point of view of

:46:47.:46:56.

the Backbench Business Commhttee. We had an interesting debate. @s a

:46:57.:47:02.

member of six parties signed the original motion. I don't entirely

:47:03.:47:10.

accept his gloomy view that it's impossible to organise a smooth

:47:11.:47:16.

election on short notice. Ghven the complements of the chairman, I think

:47:17.:47:25.

you could. I think he does come with some sensible and practical point,

:47:26.:47:28.

given all the important werd going down the road at the Capitol Bureau.

:47:29.:47:34.

And that the UK is currentlx not represented. I think we havd clearly

:47:35.:47:42.

won the point that it is appropriate that a body, which is representative

:47:43.:47:51.

of 47 governments, should h`ve the government and ministers, btt the

:47:52.:47:55.

body which is there for the parliament to scrutinize and hold to

:47:56.:48:00.

account the 47 governments, should have those parliaments's eldct those

:48:01.:48:06.

people. Given that there sedms to be a sense that this amendment, said to

:48:07.:48:16.

have, I sent some support across the House. We are not clear what the

:48:17.:48:19.

government is going to think about this. I will wait to see, I think it

:48:20.:48:27.

is our best chance to make ` compromise where we can keep the

:48:28.:48:32.

delegation doing the import`nt work, but also give us propdr

:48:33.:48:38.

election system down the ro`d. The question is that the amendmdnt,

:48:39.:48:46.

amendment be corrupt, the qtestion is that the amendment be made. Of

:48:47.:48:50.

the contrary. Clear at the lobby! Order! The question is that the

:48:51.:51:31.

amendment be made as many whth that opinion say Aye's, on the contrary

:51:32.:51:39.

Saint No's. Told us of the No's George Cole and Barry.

:51:40.:57:24.

Order! Order! The the No's 071. The Aye's to the rights, 34, thd No s to

:57:25.:01:04.

the left, 171. The No's havd it The No's have it. The question hs the

:01:05.:01:14.

motion as on the order paper, as many as that opinion say Ayd's, on

:01:15.:01:22.

the contrary note. The No's have it. The No's have it. A point of

:01:23.:01:34.

order, sir. As someone who does not actually follow the petty dhsputes

:01:35.:01:40.

as the Conservative Party, can you explain to the rest of the halls...

:01:41.:01:46.

Order! I cannot hear the gentleman who is speaking. People shotld not

:01:47.:01:54.

be speaking behind the chair! I am grateful Madam Deputy Speakdr for a

:01:55.:01:57.

second chance of this. For those of us who do not follow the disputes

:01:58.:02:01.

that we have in the Conserv`tive Party, can you explain to us which

:02:02.:02:06.

way in all of the Conservathve Party after the Conservative Partx

:02:07.:02:10.

actually won that both? No, I cannot explain that. I think he knows as

:02:11.:02:14.

the House does that very fortunately it is not a point of order for the

:02:15.:02:22.

chair. Point of order, Mr Alan. Is it possible for the chair to inform

:02:23.:02:28.

that he would understand more of the way to vote, what the discussion was

:02:29.:02:31.

about, were it to turn the debates... Order! Order! Very

:02:32.:02:43.

fortunately, the matter of lembers being in the chamber or not in the

:02:44.:02:47.

chamber is also not a matter for the chair. But, as a point of

:02:48.:02:51.

information the honourable gentleman was here for a fair amount of the

:02:52.:02:54.

debate and I am sure he unddrstands it as well as anyone. We now come to

:02:55.:03:06.

the debates on the Pharma. . Mr David Burrows, Mr David Burrows to

:03:07.:03:16.

move the motion. Madam Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the lotion as

:03:17.:03:20.

on the order paper relating to this. Order! Members in this chamber are

:03:21.:03:26.

being exceedingly discourteous to the gentleman who is trying to move

:03:27.:03:38.

a motion. Mr Burrows. The m`ssacre in Paris is rightly dominathng

:03:39.:03:41.

public and parliamentary attention today. The question may be `sked,

:03:42.:03:46.

why is a motion about Cyprus being debated today? I could use the

:03:47.:03:53.

phrase commonly used by manx of my constituents. Why not? In f`ct, they

:03:54.:03:58.

have been asking the question of why not for over 40 years following the

:03:59.:04:05.

occupation of Cyprus in 1974. Why not Justice for Cyprus? Othdr

:04:06.:04:09.

divided and occupy countries have seen freedoms over those 40 or so

:04:10.:04:15.

years, but Cyprus remains one of the longest-running unresolved hssues in

:04:16.:04:22.

British foreign-policy. This issue matters to my constituents because I

:04:23.:04:29.

represent the most Cypriots, both Greek and together in the world

:04:30.:04:34.

While I am proud of representing so many constituents it is a s`d

:04:35.:04:39.

statistic because it is the only place in the world that has so many

:04:40.:04:47.

both Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots in such numbers living

:04:48.:04:50.

freely side-by-side, working, socialising, and trading together.

:04:51.:04:56.

In my constituents we have wreaked Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots being

:04:57.:05:02.

together, but in Cyprus the Greek and Turkish Cypriots divided by the

:05:03.:05:07.

green lines. Cyprus also relains one of the most militarized places per

:05:08.:05:12.

head of population anywhere in the world. When we think of conflicts

:05:13.:05:17.

around the world, that is an extraordinary statistic. Whdn one

:05:18.:05:24.

notes the tens of thousands of Turkish troops in the north of

:05:25.:05:28.

Cyprus we have to ask ourselves why is this continuing? Day aftdr day

:05:29.:05:34.

year. And we say this when we know that Cyprus is a member of the

:05:35.:05:40.

European Union. Which is tragically, and intolerably, divided

:05:41.:05:44.

and occupied. And the context of this motion before the Housd today.

:05:45.:05:49.

Why before this particular house of Parliament when as we know Britain

:05:50.:05:54.

has a historical interest in Cyprus, it has a legal interest and has a

:05:55.:06:02.

more obvious indeed in recent months and days, obvious strategic interest

:06:03.:06:07.

given that Cyprus location hn that troubled region and indeed ht's home

:06:08.:06:11.

to those sovereign base are`s where we are secret particular reference

:06:12.:06:17.

to the wider world to much `nd we know the tornadoes by their conduct

:06:18.:06:20.

and operate, operations and may be further to come. I please ghve way.

:06:21.:06:27.

I would like to congratulatd him on bringing forward this debatd... Here

:06:28.:06:35.

here, he will know that previous governments if not the currdnt one

:06:36.:06:39.

are very keen to get their hands on those sovereign base areas. To what

:06:40.:06:43.

extent does he think that attention is taken from those areas bx the

:06:44.:06:51.

convicts currently between the Turkish and Cypriots side. Once that

:06:52.:06:54.

is a result which I hope it is soon, the steeper the tension may

:06:55.:07:02.

refocus on Alkatiri and? I can talk with some interest, it is something

:07:03.:07:05.

I should declare an interest with the friends of Cyprus and rdally...

:07:06.:07:09.

Recently visiting we have jtst returned over the weekend, we have a

:07:10.:07:16.

conservative president who has taken a very sensible view in rel`tion to

:07:17.:07:21.

the sovereign base areas. Rdcently one important agreement that was

:07:22.:07:23.

reached with the British Government was in terms of an appropri`te

:07:24.:07:27.

property development to support Cyprus and its road to economic

:07:28.:07:32.

recovery. Each is a very pr`gmatic use of those areas, and also a keen

:07:33.:07:36.

understanding of the ongoing to keep the interest of those base `reas and

:07:37.:07:40.

for wider security in the rdgion. I think Cyprus is in good hands,

:07:41.:07:45.

together that is compared to settlement that we all seek to have

:07:46.:07:48.

resolved together with that ongoing strategic that we have. Togdther

:07:49.:07:53.

Cyprus can be a beacon to other nations. Working together, providing

:07:54.:07:59.

the ability that region does Sony. This house has been used to, I have

:08:00.:08:08.

been debates on Cyprus, and many across the House as well. What makes

:08:09.:08:12.

this particular debate diffdrent is that we have a substantive lotion, I

:08:13.:08:16.

want to thank the backbench committee for agreeing to. The

:08:17.:08:20.

reason for this motion is m`ny ways the basis of it is public stpport.

:08:21.:08:26.

Picked up a petition signed by 50,000 Greek and Turkish Cypriots

:08:27.:08:30.

which presented to the Primd Minister in 2012. It follows up her

:08:31.:08:34.

it follows up her the declaration of the European Parliament of 04th of

:08:35.:08:39.

February 2012, calling for the return, such a motion can bd good

:08:40.:08:44.

for the European Parliament. It can certainly be good for British

:08:45.:08:49.

Parliament. We often say th`t our debates are timely in this place,

:08:50.:08:52.

well they certainly are when it comes to this particular motion

:08:53.:08:55.

before the House. Not just because along with six under honour`ble

:08:56.:09:00.

friends who are here today. Just returned from a recent visit but

:09:01.:09:06.

also because the two readers of Cyprus are undertaking an intense

:09:07.:09:10.

period of negotiations this month to reach a settlement to the Cxprus

:09:11.:09:16.

problem. For meetings with both Greek and Turkish Cypriots revealed

:09:17.:09:19.

an encouraging, positive approach to the talks. Both ambassador the Greek

:09:20.:09:24.

Cypriots describe it as the best chance ever. If we do not stcceed

:09:25.:09:33.

now, we may never succeed. This echoes the remarks from the Foreign

:09:34.:09:39.

Secretary a couple of months ago who also has great timing, he whll be

:09:40.:09:43.

visiting Cyprus on Thursday. He said that the stars are optimisthcally

:09:44.:09:48.

aligned to create the chancd for supplement the likes of which we

:09:49.:09:51.

have not seen in decades. I look forward to the Minister, on behalf

:09:52.:09:55.

of the House and indeed the government. I firmly support for the

:09:56.:10:00.

conference of settlement and we need this as soon as possible. Why the

:10:01.:10:06.

particular attention on Fam`gusta in this motion? The reason is `ll too

:10:07.:10:11.

clear. It is all too clear hn deed as it was too honourable frhends who

:10:12.:10:15.

were there just on Saturday. For themselves as I saw very visibly on

:10:16.:10:24.

the beach there at Famagust`, a fenced off area... I do givd way. I

:10:25.:10:31.

have to declare an interest as well, I accompanied my honourable friend

:10:32.:10:37.

recently on the trip to Cyprus. Famagusta has some of the most

:10:38.:10:42.

beautiful beaches in the world, and would play a strong part in the

:10:43.:10:48.

economy. I know this becausd my constituents also have some

:10:49.:10:53.

beautiful beaches, but would he join me in encouraging both sides to come

:10:54.:10:57.

to an agreement so that we do not see these beaches divided bx what is

:10:58.:11:03.

a dreadful barrier with part of that town being a ghost town? He`r, hear!

:11:04.:11:10.

My honourable friend seeks of the issue of Therese M and beautiful

:11:11.:11:13.

coastlines that benefit frol tourism and how important is that F`magusta

:11:14.:11:19.

which 50 feet were sent of tourism of Cyprus was generated in Famagusta

:11:20.:11:25.

and now it is referred to often as a ghost town. A ghost town whhch is in

:11:26.:11:29.

sharp contrast as it was thd jewel of the Mediterranean. Everyday that

:11:30.:11:36.

Famagusta is as it is, is a day of injustice. That is where yot must

:11:37.:11:41.

not let it be tolerated. Whhle we appropriately recognise support for

:11:42.:11:43.

comprehensive settlement, F`magusta in its return is a key elemdnt in

:11:44.:11:49.

facilitating that settlement. I give way. I thank my friend for securing

:11:50.:11:56.

this debate, I know are hard he fights for Cypriots constittents

:11:57.:11:58.

whether Turkish or Greek heritage. Does he agree with me that Famagusta

:11:59.:12:04.

is a visible reminder that Cyprus is the only EU country occupied, and

:12:05.:12:09.

occupied by foreign power which if Turkey? We cannot allow Turkey to

:12:10.:12:15.

exceed to VE you until they withdraw from the Cyprus. I have been a

:12:16.:12:20.

champion of these causes ovdr a number of years, indeed the

:12:21.:12:26.

Famagusta who are acutely aware of that very fact and the along with

:12:27.:12:30.

40,000 fled their town. There would also recognise if they lost their

:12:31.:12:35.

town, they have lost their freedom, there just is, that we all do this

:12:36.:12:40.

is a scar on Europe. It is ` star that must be sorted out and sooner

:12:41.:12:44.

rather than later. It is th`t visible reality of divided occupied

:12:45.:12:52.

island. It also offers the hope and opportunity for providing a

:12:53.:12:55.

credibility for a settlement. That is important. It is something that

:12:56.:12:59.

is recognised by all communhties will form the basis for the motion

:13:00.:13:04.

by signing that petition. Bdcause, they together recognise the

:13:05.:13:10.

importance of this important act of justice. They themselves have called

:13:11.:13:17.

for the two UN security council resolutions, 550, 780, to bd

:13:18.:13:21.

properly fulfilled. Sadly, Turkey has ignored. I have invited the

:13:22.:13:27.

Minister to know what steps have been taken to ensure that wd get

:13:28.:13:31.

that Corporation. We must sde that Corporation to ensure that this

:13:32.:13:36.

settlement is truly credibld and has a reality. Britain has a kex role to

:13:37.:13:41.

play in securing that Corporation and providing that assurancd, that

:13:42.:13:44.

safety, that security that dveryone wants. The return of Famagusta has

:13:45.:13:51.

been described during our vhsit is a game changer. Before I go on to

:13:52.:13:56.

describe why, I give way. Could I thank the Honorable gentlem`n for

:13:57.:14:00.

giving way, I congratulate him for securing this debate. Also, does he

:14:01.:14:05.

agree with me that there is a lot of cross party support on thesd benches

:14:06.:14:09.

for a deal and that we may hndeed be seeing the very moment wherd they

:14:10.:14:12.

could see both sides coming together, extending the arm of

:14:13.:14:15.

friendship and having a lot of support in the region for that

:14:16.:14:18.

particular is that the men's? Does he agree it is a good thing to say

:14:19.:14:24.

that the Cabinet secretary hs being visited Cyprus recently, twhce in

:14:25.:14:27.

the last 12 months and think that is a positive step as well? Th`nk you,

:14:28.:14:32.

these are all very positive steps. He also wanted to provide a reality

:14:33.:14:38.

to the agreement that betwedn beers in the past that has been mdt with

:14:39.:14:44.

approval, both sides, we want to ensure that is a reality to that.

:14:45.:14:49.

One key way is Famagusta. I can go away from Famagusta because that is

:14:50.:14:57.

the subject of this motion. Under Greek and Turkish Cypriots tnder

:14:58.:15:01.

their implementation, run jointly by them under supervision of the UN,

:15:02.:15:05.

that which magically help financially support a reunited

:15:06.:15:12.

Cyprus. I give way. I think the honourable gentleman for giving way,

:15:13.:15:20.

as the co-chair of the northern Turkish Republic of Cyprus, I had

:15:21.:15:26.

just come back from a visit, and I while we were in North Cyprts we met

:15:27.:15:36.

with the president, and othdr the Prime Minister and everyone, they

:15:37.:15:39.

seem to be very optimistic that a deal and a settlement would be done

:15:40.:15:41.

very shortly, we also met the British ambassador in Cyprus as

:15:42.:15:47.

well, with these matters we have discussed. I think as I unddrstand

:15:48.:15:52.

it, the issue is very much part of the discussion that had takdn

:15:53.:15:58.

place. I sense from my disctssion there that they were hoping that

:15:59.:16:02.

very much not later, but soon that there would be some sort of

:16:03.:16:07.

settlement taking place. Thd lady has plenty of opportunity to make a

:16:08.:16:12.

speech later. Her benches are not overpopulated, it is bad form to

:16:13.:16:15.

make a very long intervention. Mr Burroughs. Thankful for that

:16:16.:16:20.

intervention, he makes a pohnt that there is of course the Turkhsh and

:16:21.:16:25.

Greek Cypriots as we hurt otrselves and our visit, there is poshtivity

:16:26.:16:29.

up EA have been on many vishts before, but this is a time where

:16:30.:16:36.

together they are making good progress. I'll want to wish them the

:16:37.:16:40.

very best in those endeavors. I think it is important that we see a

:16:41.:16:46.

lot of Turkey in this whole situation, and need for proper

:16:47.:16:49.

Corporation. That is why thd opening up of the ports in addition to

:16:50.:16:53.

Turkey is good. What it would mean is that if they properly relove the

:16:54.:16:59.

troops from the island and `lso properly recognise what is hmportant

:17:00.:17:04.

which is the protocol and the customs union which would, out of

:17:05.:17:09.

the ports of Famagusta, that would allow proper recognition of goods,

:17:10.:17:14.

trade, that would move obst`cles for Turkey's path to the Europe`n Union.

:17:15.:17:21.

These are important aspects for a proper contents of settlement. I

:17:22.:17:27.

look forward before I do, I defer to the intervention of my honotrable

:17:28.:17:32.

friend. One we went, we saw churches desecrated, and Graves robbdd. Does

:17:33.:17:39.

he not think that a settlemdnt would help the people of Cyprus to rebuild

:17:40.:17:47.

their religious tolerance, `nd understanding over all the

:17:48.:17:53.

communities on the island? There is much sadness around what is a

:17:54.:17:58.

beautiful island, that is why there are humanitarian issues, such as the

:17:59.:18:01.

issue of cultural destruction, such as may discussed in the deb`te in

:18:02.:18:07.

finding truth for those lovdd ones who still do not know inforlation

:18:08.:18:12.

about their missing relativds. These are humanitarian issues as well as

:18:13.:18:16.

Famagusta is a humanitarian issue that demands our attention `nd

:18:17.:18:21.

demand justice. I look forw`rd to the Minister in response indicating

:18:22.:18:23.

the government support for this motion. What he would have had as he

:18:24.:18:28.

indicates he does not need to be tubal because he would have the

:18:29.:18:31.

backing of the Prime Ministdr in giving that support. On the 29th of

:18:32.:18:36.

June, 2012 will to me about the petition which reference wh`t is in

:18:37.:18:40.

effect emotion before the House He said," we fully agree with the

:18:41.:18:44.

principle behind it that me`sures to build confidence within the

:18:45.:18:47.

communities of Cyprus can h`ve great value, facilitating efforts toward a

:18:48.:18:51.

competent of settlement. We fully support security resolutions

:18:52.:18:56.

including the security resolution 550, and 79, there is the Prime

:18:57.:19:01.

Minister's backing already. The ministers need to say he agrees with

:19:02.:19:05.

the Prime Minister and will support this motion. Time is short, Madam

:19:06.:19:09.

Deputy Beeker, the other melbers who wish to continue this debatd. A

:19:10.:19:14.

number of issues that though perhaps beyond this motion with the leave of

:19:15.:19:22.

the deputy speaker. But, as I left Cyprus along with many of mx

:19:23.:19:25.

honourable friend over the weekend, we may well help is a lot of other

:19:26.:19:32.

people do, they leave with souvenirs, they may try to leave

:19:33.:19:36.

with tortoises. I have a shopping list of questions for the Prime

:19:37.:19:41.

Minister which I wish to rahse here. On Famagusta will be governlent

:19:42.:19:46.

support access to experts to assess the damage and requirements for

:19:47.:19:51.

restoration and regeneration? If we are serious about the return of

:19:52.:19:55.

Famagusta, we should be serhous about getting experts in thdir now.

:19:56.:19:59.

On the settlement in relation to our powers, will bring indicate that

:20:00.:20:02.

external countries guaranteds have no future following comprehdnsive

:20:03.:20:07.

settlements? Does the government stand ready to help, followhng

:20:08.:20:12.

negotiations where they may be intractable issues which repuire

:20:13.:20:19.

Turkish corporations? Where there has indeed added the Speaker been

:20:20.:20:23.

good progress, Camino progrdss with the committee for missing pdrsons is

:20:24.:20:29.

an in providing conflict whhch across the world in working with

:20:30.:20:35.

committees and directing it but also a lab technicians from both

:20:36.:20:37.

communities. Carrying out painstaking work to find information

:20:38.:20:43.

and DNA to link with missing persons. There is going to be good

:20:44.:20:46.

news that the Turkish army have provided access for 30 military

:20:47.:20:52.

bases over the next three ydars to provide important information. Will

:20:53.:20:57.

the government go and continue to ask the Turkish government to

:20:58.:20:59.

provide information which is still kept in those archives to about

:21:00.:21:03.

those missing relatives who come every July to rally hair in

:21:04.:21:08.

Parliament. Can you provide them with information to Turkey `bout

:21:09.:21:14.

their loved ones, will we h`ve information in those archivds? By

:21:15.:21:16.

the Deputy Speaker, I don't expect to speak too much longer. In

:21:17.:21:20.

conclusion, this is a motion which is a historic motion, what ht does

:21:21.:21:25.

is it that clearly not just a general debate, it said verx

:21:26.:21:29.

clearly, crystal clear that we stand" are behind it can't handle

:21:30.:21:34.

settlement that is good for Cyprus, that is good for the region, and is

:21:35.:21:38.

good for Britain. The way wd can do that and provide reality is to

:21:39.:21:43.

provide justice to Famagust` and return Famagusta to its lawful

:21:44.:21:50.

inhabitants. Hear, hear! I want to start by congratulating my

:21:51.:21:53.

honourable friend for securhng this debate. This is an extremelx timely

:21:54.:22:00.

debate, six colleagues and lyself travelled to the divided island of

:22:01.:22:03.

Cyprus just last week. It w`s not my first visit to the country, indeed

:22:04.:22:07.

it was not the first time that I had actually crossed the border and gone

:22:08.:22:11.

into the occupied territory. It was my first time I had the opportunity

:22:12.:22:16.

to travel to Famagusta. I could speak about many issues that were

:22:17.:22:20.

raised during that trip, thd committee of missing persons which

:22:21.:22:24.

people found very moving, and indeed stolen artifacts or access to

:22:25.:22:28.

property or indeed I'm. I'm going to focus on two areas. I want to make

:22:29.:22:31.

two points during this debate this evening. Percy, I want to mdntion

:22:32.:22:35.

the observation I had of thd situation which I've found truly

:22:36.:22:40.

inexplicable on the island. Secondly, I want to talk about the

:22:41.:22:43.

effect of the huge military presence in the occupied zone. The fhrst

:22:44.:22:47.

issue I want to raise is thd ages particularly at Famagusta. To

:22:48.:22:52.

witness what I can only describe as a ghost town frozen in time, that is

:22:53.:22:57.

Famagusta, would be interesting if they did not affect so many people

:22:58.:23:01.

in the here and now today. Hn fact, there are many people who are not

:23:02.:23:05.

able to visit graves of thehr relatives and friends. In f`ct,

:23:06.:23:07.

there are many people who are not able to visit graves of thehr

:23:08.:23:10.

relatives and friends stop `gain at not able to on the subject of

:23:11.:23:21.

visiting graves, there are 371 many conscripts of this country buried in

:23:22.:23:27.

wings keep that we must makd sure we have access to, and that after that

:23:28.:23:34.

graveyard. These men were khlled many by Greek Cypriot terrorist

:23:35.:23:43.

fighters, we must not forget that. Indeed, he is correct, in f`ct is

:23:44.:23:48.

the record shows I have askdd from entry questions upon this issue

:23:49.:23:52.

because we indeed have our own graves in the country. What I am not

:23:53.:23:56.

going to open a debate upon the historical aspects of the island, we

:23:57.:23:58.

realise there are many sites do all the stories that we tell. Btt, we

:23:59.:24:03.

are very concerned about thd graves of all people on the island, be it

:24:04.:24:09.

Turkish Cypriots were indeed Greek Cypriots, or indeed British service

:24:10.:24:12.

personnel who died and were buried on the island. But, as I was saying,

:24:13.:24:17.

there are such people that H can certainly name this debate. These

:24:18.:24:20.

are not people I have pluckdd out of the air, but people such as Maria

:24:21.:24:24.

who was a regular visitor to the beach. Or Antonius who was denied

:24:25.:24:31.

access to his grandfather's property, these are all real people

:24:32.:24:37.

with stories to tell Madam Deputy Speaker. Because of the beh`viour of

:24:38.:24:40.

the authorities that we havd experienced I am not going to reveal

:24:41.:24:43.

their surnames because I fedl that would be further repercussions

:24:44.:24:46.

against these people. What H found striking about visiting Fam`gusta

:24:47.:24:51.

was not just the hundreds of residential, commercial properties

:24:52.:24:54.

that lie empty but the simple access to the beach. This is something that

:24:55.:25:00.

the members that they can all relate to, having coastal constitudncies.

:25:01.:25:04.

Walk along the stand in Fam`gusta means that you have to enter a

:25:05.:25:08.

untested area alongside the overbearing corrugated barb wire

:25:09.:25:13.

fences which includes the blocks that surround the beach, giving it a

:25:14.:25:18.

sense of a militarized zone. This bike extends across and alongside

:25:19.:25:22.

the beach until it makes a curvature of the water edge then enters the

:25:23.:25:26.

sea, preventing anyone from living on the coast. This and sure that

:25:27.:25:33.

there is no access. For somdone who grew up on the beach, liter`lly I

:25:34.:25:38.

find that really difficult to explain. Even if someone cotld

:25:39.:25:42.

navigate this military presdnce the watchtower, someone would come out

:25:43.:25:45.

and shout at you to get awax from the fans and certainly not to take

:25:46.:25:50.

any pictures. Now, I wonder if the Turkish authorities are emb`rrassed

:25:51.:25:54.

by that site? I leave it to you Madam Deputy Speaker, and other

:25:55.:25:57.

members of the chamber to ddcide if that is self. I certainly think that

:25:58.:26:03.

it is. Then, the Turkish authorities, I believe in an attempt

:26:04.:26:06.

to intimidate us even furthdr, had a presence on the beach of another

:26:07.:26:10.

security personnel, quite a peculiar person in his own shorts and his

:26:11.:26:14.

comb-over long grey hair, who marched around the beach at a great

:26:15.:26:21.

pace, walking closely to us, to intimidate and decide to sed what we

:26:22.:26:26.

were doing. All the time, h`ving an earpiece in his ear where wd could

:26:27.:26:28.

hear the Turkish border guard shouting at him at the top of their

:26:29.:26:32.

voices. It was one of the most peculiar scenes I have everx seen in

:26:33.:26:37.

my life. It is not just the physical environment in Famagusta th`t has

:26:38.:26:41.

been physically manipulated by the Turkish for this, but also the

:26:42.:26:45.

people who have been relocated from mainland Turkey, the settlor is not

:26:46.:26:47.

just the physical environment in Famagusta that has been physically

:26:48.:26:49.

manipulated by the Turkish for this, but also the people who havd been

:26:50.:26:51.

relocated from mainland Turkey, the settlers known in Cyprus, the first

:26:52.:26:54.

official sentenced performed in 1996 showed that there were over 200

:26:55.:26:57.

people in the occupied terrhtory. A decade later this has incre`sed by

:26:58.:27:02.

another ?65,000. A third census was carried out by the UN in 2001, they

:27:03.:27:07.

showed a population of over 294,000, these results have been

:27:08.:27:14.

disputed by many political parties, trade unions, and indeed local

:27:15.:27:20.

newspapers and associations of undercounting the population because

:27:21.:27:22.

the population because BT and RC have previously said to Turkey that

:27:23.:27:27.

there are over 730 people in the occupied territory in order to gain

:27:28.:27:31.

access to greater number of funds. What we do know as a fact that over

:27:32.:27:35.

50% of these people that cole from the mainland have no common heritage

:27:36.:27:40.

or culture would the indigenous Turkish, or simply use people. I

:27:41.:27:44.

often hear in this chamber, I am sorry the Minister has heard me said

:27:45.:27:47.

to him many times that we hdar about the settlement in Israel and how

:27:48.:27:52.

they are illegal under international law. Answer the Deputy Speaker would

:27:53.:27:55.

be glad to hear I am sorry the Minister has heard me said to him

:27:56.:27:58.

many times that we hear abott the settlement in Israel and how they

:27:59.:28:00.

are illegal under international law. Answer the Deputy Speaker would be

:28:01.:28:02.

glad to hear, or its actions are clear breach for the fourth Geneva

:28:03.:28:05.

Convention. Article 49 makes it clear that an occupying powdr may

:28:06.:28:11.

not force beat the board protected persons or deport them transfer

:28:12.:28:14.

parts of its own civilian population into occupied territory. Turkey has

:28:15.:28:19.

done this, Turkey has clearly reached its convention and there can

:28:20.:28:23.

be no dispute that immigrathon to the occupied territory is unlawful.

:28:24.:28:28.

What is not disputed is the number of Turkish troops in the North. In

:28:29.:28:33.

2013, and the Cyprus Center for city chick studies estimate that there

:28:34.:28:38.

were 74,000 troops in the occupied territory of Cyprus. In an `rea of

:28:39.:28:43.

1295 square miles. That there were 74,000 troops in the occupidd

:28:44.:28:46.

territory of Cyprus. In an `rea of 1295 square miles. Madam Arly

:28:47.:28:52.

service personnel, we have ` landmass of ADP thousand 700 square

:28:53.:28:58.

miles, the comparison is obvious. It illustrates to keep us by the

:28:59.:29:02.

termination in Cyprus in mahntaining its military presence. Indedd, on

:29:03.:29:07.

that today we witness the over the top display of soldiers, trtcks as

:29:08.:29:12.

traffic was stopped to allow Army personnel to travel to Famagusta. It

:29:13.:29:17.

was clear this was purely a public display of such weaponry. Dte to the

:29:18.:29:25.

side and to more than to intimidate the Turkish and separate population,

:29:26.:29:28.

not to seek the removal of the Turkish army in the occupied

:29:29.:29:33.

territory. Madam Deputy Spe`ker in conclusion, the European Parliament

:29:34.:29:37.

has repeatedly voiced its stpport for the return of Famagusta to its

:29:38.:29:43.

lawful inhabitants. The resdttlement of Famagusta on the basis of the UN

:29:44.:29:46.

Security Council resolutions will have a positive effect or a

:29:47.:29:50.

comprehensive viable solution to the Cyprus problem as it will create a

:29:51.:29:56.

tangible example of cooperation and coexistence between Greek and

:29:57.:30:01.

Turkish Cypriots on the isl`nd, and serve as a symbol of future harmony

:30:02.:30:05.

and prosperity is. Famagust` may be a forbidden occupied town in Cyprus,

:30:06.:30:10.

but it will never be a forgotten community by its lawful inh`bitants

:30:11.:30:11.

and befriend it has I congratulate my honourabld friend

:30:12.:30:21.

on securing this debate. I congratulate my honourable friend on

:30:22.:30:25.

his brilliantly though not brilliant leadership of the delegation I was a

:30:26.:30:30.

member of. I should tell thd House that I have found none of mx college

:30:31.:30:35.

two colleagues... I should `lso say my honourable friend exhibited true

:30:36.:30:43.

leadership. I would say to him that if ever it honourable friend were

:30:44.:30:49.

fit for office, he is. I am also delighted to see my honourable

:30:50.:30:56.

friend the Minister is going to be responding to this debate, H know

:30:57.:31:01.

him well. He is not a minister who will respond with a lot of waffle. I

:31:02.:31:06.

anticipate he is going to agree with everything that has been sahd during

:31:07.:31:12.

this debate, and given the fact that the former secretary will bd

:31:13.:31:17.

visiting Cyprus in a short while. The timing could not be better.

:31:18.:31:22.

Madam Deputy Speaker, when H first became a member of Parliament I was

:31:23.:31:26.

taken to the island of Cyprts, I have no constituency interest at

:31:27.:31:31.

all. Very few Cypriots, whether they be Greek or Turkish, live in my

:31:32.:31:39.

constituency. I cannot belidve, visiting the island, this thny

:31:40.:31:43.

island that it was divided by a landline. As far as Famagusta is

:31:44.:31:49.

concerned, which at this debate is focusing on, I can best likdn it to

:31:50.:31:58.

great expectations. It is vdry much like... It is very distresshng when

:31:59.:32:05.

you visit this area to see these buildings which have stood hn tea

:32:06.:32:16.

and decaying since 1970 for a. Madam Deputy Speaker when we started on

:32:17.:32:22.

the visit I was very cynical about the prospects of the settlelent I

:32:23.:32:26.

had heard it all before. As we all know there is nothing in between if

:32:27.:32:33.

they live on the north or south side, it is limited for the country

:32:34.:32:37.

start to intervene in that ht becomes challenging. I have to say

:32:38.:32:44.

to the House that I was so hmpressed with the meetings we had,

:32:45.:32:48.

particularly with what the `cting president had to say and wh`t the

:32:49.:32:55.

negotiator had to say that H really think it will be the last thme any

:32:56.:33:01.

British Parliament would visit the island when it's divided. I am very

:33:02.:33:05.

optimistic that in two or three months' time we will have long seen

:33:06.:33:12.

a united Ireland. I congrattlate my honourable friend again for his

:33:13.:33:15.

timing of our trip. -- I went. We can go back to 1970 and say it was

:33:16.:33:24.

eight disaster that never should have happened. -- not to. -, 19 4.

:33:25.:33:33.

It is a tragedy that it happened than in all these years latdr it has

:33:34.:33:37.

not been solved. I decided ht is no good going on about the past, we

:33:38.:33:42.

should draw a line underneath it as Cypriots on both sides have decided

:33:43.:33:46.

to do. I was very pleased on the 18th of September this year our

:33:47.:33:51.

Prime Minister met with the Greek Cypriot president. I believdd that

:33:52.:34:01.

there is a need for Turkey to send specific signal the specific actions

:34:02.:34:08.

that would enhance the ongohng settlement process. The recdnt

:34:09.:34:14.

election of the new leader on the northern side is widely seen as

:34:15.:34:20.

something that has signific`ntly increased the prospects of the

:34:21.:34:25.

solution. Does my honourabld friend agree with me that this also

:34:26.:34:30.

presents the opportunity for the missing persons, perhaps to be

:34:31.:34:38.

relocated and identified? And see for ourselves the bones that were

:34:39.:34:46.

strewn across and being sorted in the laboratory of Greek and Cypriot

:34:47.:34:54.

persons. This to be something that is a priority for both sides to come

:34:55.:34:59.

together so that those who did lose loved ones can lay them to rest I

:35:00.:35:05.

am going to agree with my honourable friend. I am going to come to that

:35:06.:35:10.

point in a moment because I had not seen the details of the DNA testing

:35:11.:35:14.

that was going on with the bones. I want to come back to the eldction of

:35:15.:35:18.

the new leader. His first act on assuming office was to... For

:35:19.:35:24.

visitors to northern Cyprus, something that long needed to

:35:25.:35:31.

happened. That is a positivd move. Of coarse there are obstaclds to

:35:32.:35:34.

overcome, such as government, security, territory as my honourable

:35:35.:35:40.

friend have mentioned, refugees If relations continue to be positive

:35:41.:35:45.

and they seem to be positivd I am optimistic that with the support of

:35:46.:35:49.

the UK, our support we were told over again is crucial. Therd can be

:35:50.:35:57.

a fairly swift decision in 2-3 months. The potential impact on

:35:58.:36:06.

Greek Cypriots, you cannot overestimate it. It would bd very

:36:07.:36:14.

significant indeed. Famagusta will be a winner for Greek Cypriots. It

:36:15.:36:21.

is an important humanitarian move that will allow the return of 4 ,000

:36:22.:36:26.

people to their homes. , not to the point that my honourable frhend said

:36:27.:36:32.

about missing persons. I did not know if one of my honourabld friends

:36:33.:36:38.

want to intervene, but I thhnk it is about 1500 Greek Cypriots mhssing,

:36:39.:36:43.

about 500 Turkish Cypriots lissing. I think we were all shocked at the

:36:44.:36:50.

detail of the word that goes into tracing these missing peopld. When

:36:51.:36:56.

we were taking into the labs if we had had a loved one whose bones were

:36:57.:37:00.

somewhere in the world it would have been too overwhelming for as. We

:37:01.:37:06.

would step back because we did not know any of the people, but I had no

:37:07.:37:12.

idea that the detail that wdnt on. The House should know this hs a very

:37:13.:37:21.

expensive operation. Another department distressed on thhs issue,

:37:22.:37:25.

if there is anyone who could perhaps land some financial support it would

:37:26.:37:30.

mean a great deal to those concerned. He is looking up the work

:37:31.:37:41.

of the buy communal committde on missing persons.

:37:42.:37:48.

It is encouraging that they will be visiting that laboratory so he can

:37:49.:37:57.

see how we can provide how luch support as necessary to help support

:37:58.:38:01.

the information that these relatives need. He makes a wonderful point.

:38:02.:38:08.

He's absolutely right about the timing of the visit. I do hope that

:38:09.:38:13.

although it was explained to us we will never find all of the lissing

:38:14.:38:17.

persons, it would mean so mtch if we could continue with the work in the

:38:18.:38:21.

foreseeable future. Speaking as someone who's the

:38:22.:38:35.

chairman... And knows all the work that goes on interesting people it

:38:36.:38:40.

is not that difficult if yot get the DNA off of a bone and peopld who are

:38:41.:38:47.

close relatives have their DNA taken. There are two parts to it.

:38:48.:38:51.

That can be done quite quickly underneath the United Nations. My

:38:52.:38:56.

honourable friend makes an dxcellent point. I think it was explahned to

:38:57.:39:01.

us as a difficulty that somd of the burial grounds are now under

:39:02.:39:08.

multi-story buildings. They are under housing. It really is in such

:39:09.:39:16.

a straightforward thing. I `m grateful for him giving way. Can I

:39:17.:39:19.

remind him it is not just where they're located some of thel have

:39:20.:39:24.

been dispersed by wild anim`ls, some have been washed away. And those

:39:25.:39:26.

that have been bleached of the Sun lose their DNA. My honourable friend

:39:27.:39:34.

reminds me of that specific point. To the experts are doing a fantastic

:39:35.:39:44.

job, but there's a limit to how far they can go on this. To touch on the

:39:45.:39:46.

other issue that my honourable friend mentioned in terms of the

:39:47.:39:55.

graves. He I was shocked and horrified when we visited the graves

:39:56.:40:05.

to see the Greek Cypriot absolutely vandalized, cross is broken and

:40:06.:40:08.

everything dug up to see if there were any riches, like the Egyptians

:40:09.:40:14.

used to have. And yet the Ttrkish graves right opposite were capped in

:40:15.:40:21.

magnificent order. This is `ll done through European Union fundhng. And

:40:22.:40:26.

absolute scandal! Added instlt. The act think the House will be well

:40:27.:40:33.

directed to find out more information about this. This is an

:40:34.:40:38.

issue, I know my honourable friend try to get a group of volunteers to

:40:39.:40:42.

go over there and do somethhng about it, but this is a relativelx small

:40:43.:40:46.

matter with can be brought right very quickly. But the lady who took

:40:47.:40:52.

us to see where her loved ones were, she broke down in our arms. My

:40:53.:40:57.

honourable friend comforted her Yes, my honourable friend also will

:40:58.:41:03.

agree with me that it is not only the graveyards, but the churches

:41:04.:41:13.

that have been destroyed. It is all out of the oppression of people and

:41:14.:41:18.

something should be done to rectify this. Absolutely. To seal one of the

:41:19.:41:24.

churches turned into a stable, how insulting is that. If only we had

:41:25.:41:29.

had the Ark bishop or his ddputy visiting with us on that to give a

:41:30.:41:34.

trip that would have made it even better. In conclusion, I do think we

:41:35.:41:39.

could do something as far as the graves are concerned. I belheve that

:41:40.:41:44.

we need to endorse the forehgn, wild mission which is we work with Cyprus

:41:45.:41:51.

to implement policy on Europe as a single market. We support all

:41:52.:41:59.

parties in finding a comprehensive settlement in Cyprus. We work

:42:00.:42:02.

together to beat international crime and threats to purchase

:42:03.:42:08.

international security. I would like to commend the Cypriot preshdent for

:42:09.:42:10.

all of his efforts and unifhcation of Cyprus, if all goes well the

:42:11.:42:17.

island could be a wonderful model of how coexistence could be between

:42:18.:42:23.

Muslims and Christians. Cyprus now has a role opportunity to rdach an

:42:24.:42:28.

agreement and that would be a wonderful thing for Europe `nd the

:42:29.:42:30.

world. I have not been to Cyprus. Ht sounds

:42:31.:42:44.

as though I missed a fun trhp. It sounds like they had a positive

:42:45.:42:47.

experience in the last couple of weeks. I have to say to the

:42:48.:42:54.

honourable Lady that it was not done to see graves destroyed and to meet

:42:55.:43:01.

people and go to beaches whdre there's a great big barrier in the

:43:02.:43:06.

middle. -- find. It was not a fun trip for either myself or any of my

:43:07.:43:11.

colleagues. Can I think the honourable Lady for that

:43:12.:43:17.

clarification. I guess one could fill a little excluded if one was

:43:18.:43:19.

missing and not having visited with the group. The thing is that this

:43:20.:43:25.

question, there is no divishon between the particular, there should

:43:26.:43:30.

be an all party Parliamentary think, there is no division on the

:43:31.:43:34.

fact that we all want to sed the same thing. One cannot help but feel

:43:35.:43:39.

a little left out about somd of the debates this evening. Let md get

:43:40.:43:43.

back to the Cypriots in my community. The contribution of the

:43:44.:43:53.

Cypriot community have made to business, local government,

:43:54.:43:58.

business, IT facilities and services, to our diet where the

:43:59.:44:04.

Mediterranean diet and the `rrival of fresh fruit and veggies hnto our

:44:05.:44:09.

street began the whole revolution towards a healthy way of life.

:44:10.:44:15.

Moving away from just the Staples love fish and chips into wonderful

:44:16.:44:21.

vegetables, olive oil and so on I know that the right honourable

:44:22.:44:25.

gentleman who began this debate and had the idea and sought the support

:44:26.:44:32.

for it will agree that we are so enraged in North London bec`use of

:44:33.:44:36.

what the Cypriots have brought us in terms of that diet in the 1870s and

:44:37.:44:43.

onwards. On a more serious note the right honourable lady is quhte right

:44:44.:44:48.

to say how much suffering h`s been there. There has been suffering on

:44:49.:44:52.

both sides. And older Cypriot had said to me how much they wish to see

:44:53.:44:57.

before the end of their livds, some kind of hope. But it would really

:44:58.:45:03.

for them has been a durable experience. They want to sed that

:45:04.:45:08.

for the children and grandchildren. -- terrible. They want to sde

:45:09.:45:13.

themselves do it, not just pass away knowing that at some point ht will

:45:14.:45:16.

happen, but they want to sed before they actually pass on. We do have

:45:17.:45:25.

these places, like Famagust`. We got close to a settlement is like

:45:26.:45:35.

decades ago. Unfortunately,... Would you agree with me that surgdry

:45:36.:45:40.

during our visit last week one of the important features was the fact

:45:41.:45:46.

that the Greek Cypriots and the Turkish Cypriots who do want to live

:45:47.:45:49.

together and are happy to lhve together. It is the issue of

:45:50.:45:54.

Turkey, the Turkish governmdnt that stops that? Certainly, both my

:45:55.:46:04.

Turkish speaking and Greek speaking friends, colleagues are alw`ys

:46:05.:46:11.

talking about Cyprus. We ard the friends of Cyprus, the placd of It

:46:12.:46:19.

is important to always remelber that togetherness and the fact that it is

:46:20.:46:23.

the formalities. We need to bring the formalities together, wd need to

:46:24.:46:26.

have the Cabinet secretaries and live up to the reality which I

:46:27.:46:34.

believe we can do. She's emphasizing this is a cross party motion

:46:35.:46:39.

supported across the House. He it is, cross party support and as

:46:40.:46:48.

friends of Cyprus. Cypriots will work together and agree and not

:46:49.:46:54.

spread off, on this particular issue of Famagusta we have had wrdaked

:46:55.:47:01.

citizens signing petitions saying this is a good measure. That is a

:47:02.:47:08.

particular point we need to keep emphasizing and encouraged support

:47:09.:47:12.

on. That is right. What we `re working for is showing a huge amount

:47:13.:47:20.

of support that is impossible for other governments to ignore. Becomes

:47:21.:47:24.

the most important place, Cxprus itself. We give the example to other

:47:25.:47:36.

regional governments. I just wanted to conclude with this, the fact that

:47:37.:47:42.

we must not allow the disagreements that there have been in the past, I

:47:43.:47:46.

mentioned this briefly, arotnd the land. We must put that one out

:47:47.:47:50.

there. We want to get close to settlement. I I hope we can assist

:47:51.:47:57.

with the friends that we do have. I can see other friends who h`ve come

:47:58.:48:04.

to speak as well. I know my right honourable friend Allen was also key

:48:05.:48:12.

in working with colleagues `cross for many years on the environment

:48:13.:48:16.

and other questions. I hope is a new member of Parliament, the commitment

:48:17.:48:21.

I can now join the table. I am pleased to see their is one other

:48:22.:48:25.

white honourable lady in our midst as well. Because my experience at

:48:26.:48:31.

some of my meetings to date has been quite lonely. I look forward to

:48:32.:48:36.

seeing her at future events to talk about the unification of Cyprus

:48:37.:48:43.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me first date to be on able lady I

:48:44.:48:50.

believe I am right in saying it has been passed my honourable friend...

:48:51.:49:00.

Either I or her friend will make sure she has the chance to see

:49:01.:49:05.

herself. Some colleagues have seen a burning wall, not everyone has seen

:49:06.:49:09.

the green line in Cyprus. Dhe did the right to the centre of one of

:49:10.:49:16.

Europe's major cities there is a barricade. There are several yards

:49:17.:49:22.

of the parent land, buildings going back to -- 1974. It is quitd

:49:23.:49:34.

extraordinary. I think unless colleagues have seen it for

:49:35.:49:37.

themselves they cannot understand how desperate this is. Madal Deputy

:49:38.:49:47.

Speaker it is quite wrong that since 1974, since the Turkish inv`sion of

:49:48.:49:53.

the northern part of Cyprus a member state now of the European Union

:49:54.:50:00.

Cyprus, has been occupied bx an aspirant of another State of the

:50:01.:50:06.

European Union, Turkey. Successive attempts to resolve wrongs has felt.

:50:07.:50:14.

-- felt. It has not been so because Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriots

:50:15.:50:18.

get along, they do. Just as much as anyone else does. They lived happily

:50:19.:50:24.

side-by-side and there was ` time, a generation and a half ago where

:50:25.:50:32.

Greek Cypriots and Turkish Cypriots use the same bars and cafes, they

:50:33.:50:38.

played sports together. MA coexisted in harmony, and the same villages.

:50:39.:50:46.

-- and they coexisted. A generation and a half down the line, that is

:50:47.:50:51.

beginning to change, sadly. Because now there is a generation of

:50:52.:50:58.

children, some of the children of Turkish Cypriots and some of Greek

:50:59.:51:05.

Cypriots who have never known the other side, who has never spoken to

:51:06.:51:08.

Turkish or Greek. You have never shared each other's cultures, Lizaad

:51:09.:51:18.

very similar. I will come to Famagusta, I am trying to sdt this

:51:19.:51:19.

in context. I have been visited in workhng on

:51:20.:51:40.

the Cyprus problem since 1983 when I first came into this house. There is

:51:41.:51:49.

an opportunity, a window of opportunity now. The now le`der of

:51:50.:51:59.

Northern Cyprus used to be the mayor... The reason that is

:52:00.:52:08.

important is because while dveryone else was fighting and not gdtting

:52:09.:52:15.

along, the two got together in the dead of the night and land something

:52:16.:52:24.

for the whole country. Becatse you cannot have two sewage systdms for

:52:25.:52:30.

one place. They even plan to the road system so that one day looking

:52:31.:52:36.

down the road when there'll be a settlement, the roads with join up.

:52:37.:52:43.

And eight what does. -- and they would. I do not believe the man who

:52:44.:52:47.

was capable of that degree of foresight and cooperation is not

:52:48.:52:52.

capable of reaching a deal the current president of the Republic of

:52:53.:52:59.

Cyprus. It can happen and it should happen. In the interest of the piece

:53:00.:53:04.

of all of the Middle East and the whole of Europe it must happen. For

:53:05.:53:11.

it to happen, unfortunately, Turkey has got to agree. Recently, I have

:53:12.:53:20.

seen the wealthy Matt put ott in Turkey. For very obvious re`sons. We

:53:21.:53:24.

need Turkey, they are taking thousands and thousands of refugees

:53:25.:53:28.

from Syria and they're lookhng at going back for help. The idda that

:53:29.:53:33.

you can fast track Turkey into the European Union without settling the

:53:34.:53:39.

Cyprus problem is a nonstarter. It simply is a redline or should I say

:53:40.:53:49.

Greenland. -- green line. Wd have to, my honourable friend zone both

:53:50.:53:56.

benches have to use their bdst endeavors to seek to make stre that

:53:57.:54:01.

Turkey comes to the negotiation table and does the Dell. Yes, the

:54:02.:54:06.

honourable lady was right to say that without the settlement of the

:54:07.:54:10.

property issues there will be no settlement. Without the rights of

:54:11.:54:14.

the freedom of movement, thdre will be no settlement. Without hdr mobile

:54:15.:54:22.

of Turkish troops from northern Cyprus there will be no settlement.

:54:23.:54:32.

-- removal. Imagine if we h`d said, after the war, we're to keep troops

:54:33.:54:41.

there, how would that Phil? Why should the Cypriots, Greek `nd

:54:42.:54:46.

Turkish, why should they settle For the presence of foreign troops, one

:54:47.:54:52.

for Drupal on their land without invitation. Feticide invitation that

:54:53.:54:58.

is a different matter. I believe the Greek troops and the Turkish troops

:54:59.:55:04.

have to lead the Army. The risk gets harder, the property is difficult

:55:05.:55:08.

because most of the land is built on who owns those houses or who owns

:55:09.:55:17.

the land. It is not going to be easy, it will take money and time.

:55:18.:55:23.

But it has to have been. Thd bottom line is by communal, by zon`l

:55:24.:55:31.

configuration. It is achiev`ble We are with you and we will st`y with

:55:32.:55:33.

you for as long as it takes. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:55:34.:55:44.

too would join with others hn congratulating my Honorable friend,

:55:45.:55:48.

not only in securing this ddbate but in his excellent leadership of the

:55:49.:55:54.

dedication which visit to Cxprus a few days ago. For me it was my first

:55:55.:56:00.

visit, not just to Famagust` but to Cyprus itself. It is a beautiful

:56:01.:56:10.

island, the beach at Famagusta, I give weight to my Honorable friend.

:56:11.:56:16.

Does he not believe that Cornwell comes above this place? No, I am

:56:17.:56:21.

afraid I cannot agree of my Honorable friend as I am sure she

:56:22.:56:28.

would anticipate. Madam Deptty Speaker as always in countrhes where

:56:29.:56:33.

there is conflict and divishon. Is the ordinary people who suffer. We

:56:34.:56:38.

have the privilege of meeting a number of those over the last few

:56:39.:56:46.

days. Those who suffer what is already being described by ly

:56:47.:56:49.

Honorable friend from South and having witnessed the desecr`tion of

:56:50.:56:56.

their churches and the vand`lism of their graveyards, leaves a permanent

:56:57.:57:02.

scar on them. We must do all we can to retrieve that situation. It is

:57:03.:57:06.

not just of course damaging to those individuals what it is also damaging

:57:07.:57:11.

to the heritage and culture of the Cypriot island and people

:57:12.:57:17.

themselves. I will not detahn the House unnecessarily because my

:57:18.:57:20.

Honorable friend from South and is focused on the point about the

:57:21.:57:25.

committee of missing people that I wanted to highlight. It was the

:57:26.:57:30.

second time I have witnessed visiting a similar place th`t we

:57:31.:57:40.

visited on Friday when we s`w the bones and DNA. My Honorable friend

:57:41.:57:44.

from back and am intervened earlier and it was with him that I visited

:57:45.:57:48.

similar work being done with Bosnia this time last year, it is

:57:49.:57:54.

harrowing, and the meticulots work of those involved in it desdrves

:57:55.:57:59.

recognition. As my Honorabld friend from South and pointed out, very

:58:00.:58:03.

modest resources are needed to maintain and enhance this work, I

:58:04.:58:06.

would hope that the governmdnt would look favorably on that requdst.

:58:07.:58:14.

Indeed, it need not necessarily be taxpayer's money, it can be

:58:15.:58:20.

donations in kind from the private sector, I am sure if they work was

:58:21.:58:26.

highlighted to a greater extent donations would be forthcomhng. The

:58:27.:58:35.

other point I think that me`nt a great deal to me was actually

:58:36.:58:40.

visiting the former airport, because it gives you a real, it highlights

:58:41.:58:48.

all the area is frozen in thme to play in terms of this, you lay

:58:49.:58:57.

recall that my Honorable frhend mentioned that the potential of

:58:58.:59:08.

using the goodwill of the Honorable friend and the digger is ond of the

:59:09.:59:13.

most expensive parts of the cave to try and find missing persons, that

:59:14.:59:17.

may be particularly useful hn-kind donation. He highlights exactly the

:59:18.:59:29.

point that I was seeking to meet. To a greater extent if we were to make

:59:30.:59:33.

known what is required, I al sure it donations would be forthcomhng.

:59:34.:59:38.

Returning to the airport, it gives you a real impression of behng

:59:39.:59:42.

frozen in time, as do the elpty and derelict buildings in Famagtsta I

:59:43.:59:52.

speak as someone that used to fly from the airport, I am that old I

:59:53.:59:56.

used to be on the beaches of Famagusta as a boy. It is actually

:59:57.:00:02.

crucially important that we get both areas functioning again, and in that

:00:03.:00:09.

respect I think the United Nations who have manned the green lhne for

:00:10.:00:15.

so long has done so well on it could well have been redeployed to help

:00:16.:00:18.

with Famagusta and open up the airport. I think that will be

:00:19.:00:21.

something to stop them doing the serenity which they are facdd with

:00:22.:00:30.

the last 40 years. I entirely agree, the island is heavily dependent on

:00:31.:00:35.

tourism, every opportunity to enhance that would have surdly been

:00:36.:00:41.

welcomed. Here and at the ahrport as elsewhere we saw bullet scarred

:00:42.:00:45.

buildings which are a const`nt reminder of what happens 41 years

:00:46.:00:54.

ago. Madam Deputy Speaker, what purpose does the continuation of

:00:55.:01:01.

this division serves? I would urge everything possible to encotrage

:01:02.:01:05.

support, the Cypriot people. I give way. Thank you very much. Cxprus is

:01:06.:01:14.

a fantastic country, it is ` fantastic country, the Turkhsh

:01:15.:01:20.

government continually is ignoring US security council resoluthons on

:01:21.:01:29.

these -- UN, can they see what the additional pressure is that the UK

:01:30.:01:33.

Government put on the Turkish government to put this disptte to an

:01:34.:01:37.

end with which is set his f`ctory to everyone? I would hope that it is

:01:38.:01:45.

the Minister who is going to enlighten us as to what addhtional

:01:46.:01:50.

help, support, and encouragdment can take place. It is entirely true that

:01:51.:01:54.

it is the Turkish government that have seemingly been the blockage to

:01:55.:02:00.

this for so many years. As ly Honorable friend said if yot minutes

:02:01.:02:06.

ago, if ever there was the possibility of a settlement, it did

:02:07.:02:09.

seem now that it is within our grasp, anything the British

:02:10.:02:13.

Government can do to help and achieve that must... I give way

:02:14.:02:23.

Would he not agree that there were in fact to midwives to this

:02:24.:02:30.

particular situation, one w`s Turkish, however, in 1974 rd-'s

:02:31.:02:41.

militarism was very much part of the destabilising the archbishop and

:02:42.:02:46.

introducing the military, fortunately for a short perhod of

:02:47.:02:50.

time, never the less one can have a bit to bit of sympathy for Turkey.

:02:51.:02:54.

So far in this debate it has been rather one-sided. Yes, of course it

:02:55.:03:03.

takes two parties, two to t`ngle as it were, it must be the willingness

:03:04.:03:09.

of both sides to come to an agreement, and concludes by urging

:03:10.:03:12.

it again the government to do everything, I think my Honorable

:03:13.:03:15.

friend is looking to intervdne just as I was concluding. Am grateful.

:03:16.:03:22.

While there is some history about Turkish troops invading the Alan,

:03:23.:03:27.

that was 36 years ago, it is time for them to go now. Even thd

:03:28.:03:31.

behaviour it, that we are followed by this directive forces he

:03:32.:03:35.

photographed us, saw our nales, and determined we were leaving `nd what

:03:36.:03:39.

we were doing shows that thd Turkish government have not really changed.

:03:40.:03:46.

Yes, there was a slightly shnister feel to some parts of our trip as a

:03:47.:03:52.

result of being followed and photographed by the Turkish

:03:53.:03:55.

authorities. I give way to the honourable gentleman. I do `pologise

:03:56.:03:59.

for not being here at the opening of the debate, I had other duthes

:04:00.:04:05.

elsewhere. I accept the points he made a few moments ago that for the

:04:06.:04:12.

first time in 41 years, a sdttlement looks closer than it has evdr been.

:04:13.:04:16.

In order for such a settlemdnt to take place, once he accept that

:04:17.:04:19.

there has to be some recognhtion on both sides that there have been

:04:20.:04:24.

feelings on both sides before anyone can move forward? Yes, of course as

:04:25.:04:32.

I mentioned in response to ly Honorable friend a few moments ago.

:04:33.:04:36.

There clearly have been feelings on both sides, it takes two to come

:04:37.:04:42.

together, and bring this situation to a conclusion. We are now within

:04:43.:04:47.

our grasp, we should do everything possible we can to achieve that

:04:48.:04:59.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, let me begin by congratulating the

:05:00.:05:05.

Honorable member for Enfield, Southgate, and his core signatories

:05:06.:05:09.

for tabling this debate. Thd division of Cyprus for over 40 years

:05:10.:05:16.

is often referred to as a frozen conflict. The motion before us

:05:17.:05:25.

tonight gives some sense of how long this situation has lasted for. It

:05:26.:05:34.

talks of the UN resolutions, the high level agreements which had been

:05:35.:05:36.

reached, the efforts which have been made, and as the motion says, all of

:05:37.:05:44.

this effort is aimed at a comprehensive septal. A phr`se

:05:45.:05:50.

continually used, of the division of the island. The aim, as the motion

:05:51.:05:57.

again says, is for a by comlunal, by zonal, federation with political

:05:58.:06:01.

equality guaranteed for the whole population of the island. Yds? Madam

:06:02.:06:08.

Deputy Speaker I would like to put on record that although the conflict

:06:09.:06:13.

may have been frozen for a very long time, one of the reasons it was

:06:14.:06:17.

frozen was because the actions of so many United Nations troops on the

:06:18.:06:22.

green line stopping the conflict breaking out again, it may have been

:06:23.:06:29.

style, it may be boring, for those troops, but my goodness thex have

:06:30.:06:34.

actually stopped people dying. He makes a very good points, I suppose

:06:35.:06:40.

he is gently reminding us that the frozen conflict is better than on

:06:41.:06:47.

frozen conflict, the frozen nature of the conflict is perhaps `t its

:06:48.:06:52.

most graphic in the city of Famagusta. Where homes, hotdls,

:06:53.:07:03.

other buildings have been dormant for 40 years. Trapped in a specific

:07:04.:07:09.

moment in time. Buildings still standing, but devoid of the people,

:07:10.:07:16.

and the changes that give a city life year after year. Overgrown with

:07:17.:07:20.

vegetation, and gradually w`lking away. It is no accident that the

:07:21.:07:25.

term ghost town has been usdd to describe this, but before tonight

:07:26.:07:31.

and Internet's debate. It is of course, right that the city and its

:07:32.:07:37.

properties be returned to their rightful owners. And people left,

:07:38.:07:42.

they thought they would be `ble to return within days or perhaps

:07:43.:07:47.

weeks, they now find that they have had no access to their homes,

:07:48.:07:54.

businesses, and other places of real importance to them for over 40

:07:55.:07:59.

years. People lost their hotses land, money, access to placds of

:08:00.:08:04.

worship. It is no wonder th`t this enforced absence is a sourcd of such

:08:05.:08:07.

heartbreak and sorrow. To all of those affected, they are right but

:08:08.:08:13.

only to hope but to expect that they will be able to return. The border

:08:14.:08:20.

question is, how this happens and its relationship to eight whder

:08:21.:08:26.

settlement of the Cyprus division and Cyprus issues. On that point,

:08:27.:08:29.

has again been mentioned several times in the debate tonight, they

:08:30.:08:35.

have been better for it, thdn they have been for some time. Both

:08:36.:08:41.

gentlemen seemed genuinely committed to a settlement, and optimism is at

:08:42.:08:46.

a higher level than for manx years. The prospect for progress on this

:08:47.:08:50.

agenda seems stronger now than in the past. I am sure that thd whole

:08:51.:08:57.

households that that applies to the wider issues including this issue of

:08:58.:09:01.

Famagusta which we are focused on tonight. The Foreign Secret`ry is

:09:02.:09:08.

due in Cyprus later this wedk. The Honorable member asked the len,

:09:09.:09:12.

Minister a few questions, I wonder if I could add to his list. Could

:09:13.:09:18.

the Minister tell us what is the government's agenda for this visit

:09:19.:09:22.

later this week? What more the UK Government can do as a friend of

:09:23.:09:26.

Cyprus to encourage momentul and ultimately agreement in the talks?

:09:27.:09:32.

Given the more of the polithcal atmosphere which exists tod`y,

:09:33.:09:36.

compared to the past, how does the Minister CD government using its

:09:37.:09:42.

position to press for a settlement which leads to the island sdt out in

:09:43.:09:47.

the various UN resolutions which have been adopted? Does the Minister

:09:48.:09:58.

believes that in this process, the Man who ate great hope has been

:09:59.:10:04.

presented, is free to make `n agreement, if he so wishes, can he

:10:05.:10:09.

say more about what he belidves the role is in this process. Thhs is

:10:10.:10:12.

particularly important on this issue of Famagusta because it is hmportant

:10:13.:10:16.

to mention that this frozen area is not in the hands of the Cypriots it

:10:17.:10:22.

is in the hands of the Turkhsh military. It is important that we

:10:23.:10:28.

consider this not only the people on the island, but in the Turkhsh will

:10:29.:10:32.

also. Could be minister also comments on what the relationship is

:10:33.:10:37.

between this process and thd other issues which have been raisdd

:10:38.:10:42.

tonight which are under discussion between Turkey and the European

:10:43.:10:45.

Union. Pacific beat the hugd refugee problem which is affecting both

:10:46.:10:52.

Turkey and the European Union, and the question of accession to the EU

:10:53.:10:57.

at any point in the future. How possible is it to make progress on

:10:58.:11:02.

these other issues where thd issue in Cyprus remains as it is. What is

:11:03.:11:06.

their effect on the process taking place in Cyprus itself? Manner that

:11:07.:11:11.

the Speaker, there is much that has taking place in recent months, and

:11:12.:11:16.

days, that is a cause for grief and heartbreak. At the human level, and

:11:17.:11:22.

in huge concern, at the polhtical level. We heard a statement earlier

:11:23.:11:30.

today of the terrible events which took place in Paris a few d`ys ago.

:11:31.:11:36.

We have talked understandably of a generational struggle against

:11:37.:11:42.

Islamist extremism, the world has failed to find a solution to the

:11:43.:11:46.

terrible war in the area. Which has been unfolding for years and is

:11:47.:11:50.

driving much of the refugee problem facing Europe. Yet on this hssue, on

:11:51.:11:57.

this Cyprus issue, there is grounds for hope and optimism to

:11:58.:12:02.

inevitably, those grounds whll be tempered with caution, giving how

:12:03.:12:05.

many setbacks there have bedn over the years. The Honorable melber

:12:06.:12:11.

referred to his involvement for decades in this issue will. As we

:12:12.:12:17.

know from our own experiencd, making peace is hugely dependent on

:12:18.:12:23.

leadership, and among both Greek and Turkish Cypriots we have le`dership

:12:24.:12:26.

in place now which seems colmitted to finding a way forward. Wd on this

:12:27.:12:32.

side of the House would support their efforts and we hope that the

:12:33.:12:36.

UK Government plays as positive a role as possible so that thhs

:12:37.:12:40.

conflict which I referred to as frozen can be resolved and that the

:12:41.:12:45.

island of Cyprus can be unified on the basis of mutual respect for

:12:46.:12:49.

every part of the population of the island. Hear, hear! Thank you very

:12:50.:13:01.

much. And I congratulate thd Backbench Business Committed for

:13:02.:13:03.

taking time to have this important debate? And I begin by apologising

:13:04.:13:08.

for the absence of the Europe minister who has another engagement

:13:09.:13:14.

away from the House? I will do my best to answer the questions from

:13:15.:13:20.

the right Honorable members, any questions that I am unable to answer

:13:21.:13:27.

I will pass on to him, for him to write. It should also be mentioned

:13:28.:13:29.

that the Foreign Secretary will be visiting the country this wdek, in

:13:30.:13:34.

fact this debate very much hs fortuitous in that sense. C`n I

:13:35.:13:41.

begin by congratulating my Honorable friend on securing this important

:13:42.:13:49.

debate at this time. Is a country that I deal with the Middle East and

:13:50.:13:53.

Africa, it is a country and Africa, it is a country am pretty. H do

:13:54.:14:01.

remember all the stomping grounds, up to the Panhandle, and also up to

:14:02.:14:07.

the monastery, it is a trulx beautiful country. Not only that,

:14:08.:14:13.

lots of history, we have gone back to its independence. Of course, it

:14:14.:14:18.

has a place in Greek mythology, birthplace of Aphrodite, and Adonis,

:14:19.:14:24.

it is truly a remarkable pl`ce indeed. To have very fond mdmories,

:14:25.:14:30.

it is where I learn to fly `s a pilot, where I like to parachute, a

:14:31.:14:35.

very beautiful place indeed. Is a place which is associated whth fun,

:14:36.:14:40.

enjoyment. But, there is a serious element which has been highlighted

:14:41.:14:46.

today. Back anytime when I was there, the 1990s, there werd other

:14:47.:14:49.

two other protagonists which would take in this across. There were the

:14:50.:14:55.

two leaders of the day debating the very same matters that we are

:14:56.:14:59.

debating at this moment. So, there is a sense of restriction which how

:15:00.:15:06.

long it has taken to try and resolve this issue which is at the dnd of

:15:07.:15:11.

the date an important part of Europe. My Honorable friend,

:15:12.:15:17.

mentioned the British interdst as well, of course a historical

:15:18.:15:20.

interest, commercial interest not only with tourism, culturally but

:15:21.:15:25.

also security interests as well with the sovereign bases I had the honour

:15:26.:15:29.

to serve with. Also a mention was made of the RAF and the world they

:15:30.:15:34.

are playing, not least with the in the Middle East. This is an

:15:35.:15:37.

important city of relationship that that we have with the country. He

:15:38.:15:41.

mentioned in his letter that he received from the Prime Minhster, I

:15:42.:15:50.

can aptly with my Prime Minhster, on his commitment to a bicamer`l

:15:51.:15:56.

solution, supporting UN resolution 550, and 789, and working towards

:15:57.:15:58.

that important comprehensivd settlement. The my Honorabld friend

:15:59.:16:08.

spoke about very briefly... Would he agree with me also that in order to

:16:09.:16:15.

make progress on that proposal, it is necessary to recognise that there

:16:16.:16:17.

are legitimate grievances on the side of the northern Cypriots that

:16:18.:16:22.

has to be addressed if they are going to feel comfortable whth that

:16:23.:16:25.

sort of settlement? I will certainly come onto this particular grievances

:16:26.:16:30.

and what will bring can say is I make progress. My Honorable friend I

:16:31.:16:37.

was just saying he made the remarks of the empty beaches which he saw on

:16:38.:16:43.

what sounds to me like an alazing visit by Honorable members,

:16:44.:16:46.

Honorable friend as well. Also the Unum is for tourism to fill those

:16:47.:16:50.

beaches. That is exactly wh`t I think all sides would want. My

:16:51.:16:57.

Honorable friend did not want to dwell on the past, he wanted to look

:16:58.:17:00.

at the future. We certainly must learn from the past, but also

:17:01.:17:05.

stressed the importance of trade. The Honorable member for whhmsy and

:17:06.:17:11.

Wood Green, I was about to say a lot of nice things about her but she is

:17:12.:17:15.

not in her place, although she has not been to Cyprus herself, she was

:17:16.:17:19.

not on this visit, she clearly has a major diaspora in her consthtuency.

:17:20.:17:23.

The fact that she came here today, she is representing her constituents

:17:24.:17:28.

well. Sure mentioned the desire of an older generation of Cyprhots

:17:29.:17:31.

still waiting for a solution, and how frustrating it is for them, so

:17:32.:17:36.

we do hope we all make progress My right honourable friend for North,

:17:37.:17:44.

then I welcome him to his ndw role? I think he has got some big shoes to

:17:45.:17:49.

fill, if I can put it politdly in that way. He stressed that there is

:17:50.:17:55.

a window of opportunity arising I think my Honorable friend t`lked

:17:56.:17:59.

about the stars being onlind, if I may correct them, I think it is the

:18:00.:18:02.

prize that are aligned rathdr than the stars. Never the less, the

:18:03.:18:06.

moment very much is in front of us, that is where it is very pertinent

:18:07.:18:10.

that the Foreign Secretary will be visiting in the very, very near

:18:11.:18:18.

future. In terms of these b`rs aligning, I was repeating what the

:18:19.:18:24.

Foreign Secretary stayed in the House, he was referring to the same

:18:25.:18:29.

quotation that was referred at head of the Good Friday agreement in

:18:30.:18:31.

Northern Ireland. The same phrase was used to make the point that we

:18:32.:18:37.

are on the cusp of another historic agreement. I agree. I hope that is

:18:38.:18:41.

absolutely right, which is why the visit of the Foreign Secret`ry is so

:18:42.:18:44.

pertinent this week, I am stre he will be making sure he is ftlly

:18:45.:18:49.

grasp as to what has been sdt in the House today copy my Honorable friend

:18:50.:18:56.

for Cleethorpes used the phrase what purpose does this division continued

:18:57.:19:00.

to serve? I absolutely agred with him, it serves no purpose

:19:01.:19:03.

whatsoever, everybody benefhts by finding a solution air todax. So,

:19:04.:19:11.

first of all, can I welcome the support expressed in the motion for

:19:12.:19:17.

the comprehensive settlement of the Cyprus problem? Cyprus has been

:19:18.:19:21.

divided for too long, and under the courageous leadership of thd

:19:22.:19:32.

president Anastasio is, sorry, and Mr, we may not have the opportunity

:19:33.:19:37.

to secure a just and lasting settlement. I can assure thd House

:19:38.:19:43.

that the UK will remain a strong supporter of the two communhty

:19:44.:19:47.

efforts to support a settlelent We will do whatever we can to help them

:19:48.:19:53.

reunite Cyprus. I give weight up yellow I understand what thd

:19:54.:20:00.

Minister said before about that the people in the department have got

:20:01.:20:06.

more expertise. Could he sax what actual powers as the UK Govdrnment

:20:07.:20:10.

got in terms of the guarantde of power for Cyprus? Again, he needs to

:20:11.:20:16.

allow me to develop my argulent if I may. I will come to the point in the

:20:17.:20:21.

wall that Britain seeks to provide. In this important task in fhnding a

:20:22.:20:30.

solution here. We should be clear on the benefits of a lasting

:20:31.:20:33.

settlement, Madam Deputy Spdaker, there are clear benefits for Cyprus,

:20:34.:20:38.

for the region, and indeed for the United Kingdom. 80,000 Brithsh

:20:39.:20:44.

nationals lived in Cyprus, 800, 00 visit the country every single year.

:20:45.:20:52.

A reunited Cyprus would unlock significant economic benefits to

:20:53.:20:57.

increase opportunities for trade, investment, and indeed tourhsm.

:20:58.:21:02.

Including in the area of Russia around Famagusta, the respective

:21:03.:21:07.

peace research Institute of Oslo has forecasted that the peace dhvidend

:21:08.:21:11.

for a Cyprus settlement would amount to 20 billion euros over thd next 20

:21:12.:21:19.

years, it would add an aver`ge of 2.8% in real terms, GDP growth every

:21:20.:21:26.

single year. These figures `lone make a powerful case for thd

:21:27.:21:32.

importance of securing a settlement. Beyond economic benefits, a

:21:33.:21:35.

settlement in Cyprus would help to advance regional stability, Cyprus

:21:36.:21:41.

is already a beacon of stabhlity in a challenging region, but a

:21:42.:21:44.

settlement would reinforce the islandsecurity. It would opdn up the

:21:45.:21:48.

possibility of new energy, `nd economic partnerships in thd region.

:21:49.:21:54.

It would bring new momentum to Turkey's EU accession process. And

:21:55.:21:58.

all of these areas there ard opportunities for the United

:21:59.:22:03.

Kingdom. On Turkey specific`lly Madam Deputy Speaker, it is clear

:22:04.:22:08.

that Turkey remains an important part of reaching a solution. We

:22:09.:22:12.

welcome Turkey's support for a settlement in public statemdnts on

:22:13.:22:19.

that from the president and the Prime Minister, they have bden

:22:20.:22:21.

important to build support for a settlement. Turkey's recent

:22:22.:22:26.

agreement to give the committee for missing persons in Cyprus Access to

:22:27.:22:30.

30 sites which has been mentioned by Honorable members, controlldd by the

:22:31.:22:34.

Turkish military was a very helpful step indeed. We welcome the positive

:22:35.:22:39.

response from the Republic of Cyprus to that end and hope that p`rties

:22:40.:22:44.

can build on this to generate even more confidence in the settlement

:22:45.:22:49.

process. I give way. Thank xou. I am very grateful indeed. I havd

:22:50.:22:56.

listened intently to the debates, of course there are memories stirred

:22:57.:23:00.

about the past in Northern Hreland, one suggestion I would make to the

:23:01.:23:04.

Minister is that the IRA disappeared, murdered, a nulber of

:23:05.:23:11.

people, 30, 40 years ago. Arey distinguished forensic expert has

:23:12.:23:14.

helped to identify some of the remains of the disappeared, and also

:23:15.:23:20.

help in Bosnia. I wonder if the government would please makd a point

:23:21.:23:26.

of involving a very distingtished lady forensics expert in iddntifying

:23:27.:23:34.

those graves in Cyprus? She makes an important part about the

:23:35.:23:37.

reconciliation, her words are now on the record, I would have discussions

:23:38.:23:41.

about this very issue. And `m pleased to say that progress has

:23:42.:23:44.

been made on this as mentioned by other Honorable members in the

:23:45.:23:50.

chamber. Securing a sustain`ble Cyprus settlement therefore remains

:23:51.:23:55.

important, internationally, regionally given the opporttnities

:23:56.:23:58.

and security threats, but above all, for the people of Cyprus itself who

:23:59.:24:03.

stand most to gain from the social, economic, and security benefits that

:24:04.:24:11.

a lasting settlement would bring. The UK remains firmly focusdd on

:24:12.:24:15.

supporting the people of thd island to find a solution. Our approach,

:24:16.:24:22.

Madam Deputy Speaker, has three elements. Adversity, we maintain

:24:23.:24:26.

strong links in Cyprus with both communities, and we support strongly

:24:27.:24:34.

the efforts of the president and the gentleman to reach a lasting

:24:35.:24:37.

settlement to the UN led negotiations. At the Foreign

:24:38.:24:41.

Secretary who has already bden visiting this week, confirmdd to the

:24:42.:24:45.

House in June, the UK has m`de a generous offer to cede nearly half

:24:46.:24:50.

of the territory of the sovdreign base areas to Cyprus in the event of

:24:51.:24:55.

a settlement. We also Gentlemen could I also plays on

:24:56.:25:09.

record the immense help the sovereign base areas have h`d over

:25:10.:25:14.

the 40 years to try and keep stability. Nudges from the fact when

:25:15.:25:18.

the invasion occurred to. Ttrkish troops were stopped by at the

:25:19.:25:25.

presence of there. Receding back land to the Republic of Cyprus,

:25:26.:25:32.

those two areas of British territory provided huge stability for the

:25:33.:25:39.

island in security terms as well. The sovereign base areas have made

:25:40.:25:44.

an important part of historx of that country and continue to do so. I am

:25:45.:25:49.

pleased to see that we are tsing that as a method of which to

:25:50.:25:54.

encourage a settlement to bd reached. We also support part

:25:55.:25:58.

initiatives to help build trust between the communities, notably

:25:59.:26:01.

through our support for the excellent work of the bi-colmunal

:26:02.:26:06.

Chambers of commerce. The Mhnister for Europe was very pleased to host

:26:07.:26:10.

an event at the Foreign Offhce in March, that enable the changes of a

:26:11.:26:18.

bi-communal work and economhc benefits of a settlement. At the

:26:19.:26:22.

regional level we discussed with other powers, Turkey and Grdece on

:26:23.:26:27.

how best to support a soluthon to. On the question of security

:26:28.:26:33.

guarantees, our position is clear, we are not seeking a specifhc role

:26:34.:26:39.

for the UK. Rather, we are ready to consider whatever arrangements for

:26:40.:26:43.

sides can agree to enable their communities to feel secure. Finally,

:26:44.:26:51.

we engage with other intern`tional partners, including through the EU

:26:52.:26:54.

and the UN, to encourage thdm to support the efforts of the president

:26:55.:27:07.

and minister. As the Foreign Secretary has made clear thd UK will

:27:08.:27:11.

continue to do all it can to help decide to reunite the island. With

:27:12.:27:17.

respect to the specific isste of Famagusta. I understand the

:27:18.:27:24.

strength... The present state of Russia reflects the consequdnces of

:27:25.:27:28.

the continued division of Cxprus. We fully support all relevant hn

:27:29.:27:36.

resolutions, including resolution 550 from 1980 for and 789 from 992.

:27:37.:27:44.

We have raised this issue whth the Turkish Cypriots and with the

:27:45.:27:47.

Turkish authorities and the government remains convinced that

:27:48.:27:50.

ultimately a comprehensive settlement is the best chance at

:27:51.:27:55.

resolving this issue. We relain focused on supporting the efforts of

:27:56.:27:58.

the two leaders to secure a settlement. Madam Deputy Spdaker, in

:27:59.:28:06.

conclusion, this debate is underlying the depth of the ties

:28:07.:28:09.

between the United Kingdom `nd Cyprus. It has demonstrated that it

:28:10.:28:16.

is in the UK 's national to help the Cypriots to reach a lasting

:28:17.:28:22.

settlement. That will require bold decisions from both communities in

:28:23.:28:31.

the weeks and months I had. But the president and the Prime Minhster

:28:32.:28:36.

already demonstrate that thdy can provide the strong and determined

:28:37.:28:40.

leadership required to secure an historic agreement. The govdrnment

:28:41.:28:44.

is optimistic that a solution may be within reach. Certainly, many people

:28:45.:28:48.

think there is not a chance, the like of which am I has not been seen

:28:49.:28:53.

for decades. And we urge both sides to seize opportunities, Cypriots of

:28:54.:29:00.

both communities want to live and prosper together in peace. @s they

:29:01.:29:07.

strive for a lasting solution, we will continue our act of support in

:29:08.:29:12.

Cyprus and grow, Athens, Brtssels, and beyond. Madam Deputy Spdaker I

:29:13.:29:19.

am grateful to the committed for making time for this debate and

:29:20.:29:22.

giving us opportunity to discuss these important issues. I also think

:29:23.:29:33.

all of the members for contributing to this debate. And we think them

:29:34.:29:40.

for their support. And the powerful case there is for a settlemdnt. It

:29:41.:29:51.

is there through Nicos Anastasiades and Mustafa Akinci. We must make

:29:52.:29:59.

sure that this measurement `s it is -- does this. We have heard many

:30:00.:30:07.

voices throughout the debatd, intervening in sharing their support

:30:08.:30:10.

and offer this measure. Togdther with fine on for -- five honourable

:30:11.:30:22.

members. That is because... She is welcome to apply,. We spoke about

:30:23.:30:37.

the generational problem and the hope, he has the skills to work with

:30:38.:30:44.

us to make the most of this chant. My honourable friend spoke `bout it

:30:45.:30:52.

being applied everywhere, and Cyprus as well. To ensure that we never

:30:53.:30:57.

forget the important issue of justice that must be dealt with Is

:30:58.:31:05.

motion proceeds to do that. He also spoke of the airport, which is a

:31:06.:31:16.

scar of the division. My honourable friend for South and West is that he

:31:17.:31:20.

heard it all before, but thhs motion does allow us to take it further.

:31:21.:31:29.

That is the case because since the 40,000 who had to leave thehr homes

:31:30.:31:35.

that have not been left empty to decay, we must bring you back to its

:31:36.:31:43.

former glory and see its return There has been petitions, not just

:31:44.:32:05.

the one that forms the basis of this debate. Now, we have a resolution in

:32:06.:32:14.

this house that does make it very clear that I hope we will rdceive a

:32:15.:32:18.

unanimous support from the House, we want this motion which is about the

:32:19.:32:25.

return of Famagusta, it is `bout supporting a comprehensive

:32:26.:32:27.

settlement. We want to make sure this is the last time we have to

:32:28.:32:30.

have this debate, that we do reach the settlement that is for the good

:32:31.:32:39.

of all Cypriots. As many of that opinion say I, on the contr`ry no. I

:32:40.:32:46.

think the ayes Pavitt. We now come to the applause of private

:32:47.:32:58.

business. The chairman comes forward. The question is asked on

:32:59.:33:03.

the order paper. Thank you Ladam Deputy Speaker, I rise to propose

:33:04.:33:09.

that the bill submitted by transport for London be revived in thhs

:33:10.:33:14.

session of Parliament. This is a private bill, promoted by transport

:33:15.:33:18.

for London, which was actually deposited on the 26th of November

:33:19.:33:27.

2010. It was order to commence in the House of Lords. The bill... If I

:33:28.:33:35.

may make some progress what has happened before I give way hn terms

:33:36.:33:41.

of time. The bill was considered by an opposing committee of thhs house

:33:42.:33:49.

on January 20 15, one of thd clauses was amended. The door subsepuently

:33:50.:33:54.

debated at the consideration stage on Monday the 16th of March, the

:33:55.:33:58.

time allocated for the debate expired before proceedings could be

:33:59.:34:06.

brought to a conclusion. Thd bill fell. In accordance with thd

:34:07.:34:12.

beginning of the present session the promoters requested that thd bill be

:34:13.:34:15.

revised in accordance with private business standing order 188 B. The

:34:16.:34:23.

revival motion subsequently tabled has continued to be objected to

:34:24.:34:28.

leading to the necessity for this debate. I would stress that this

:34:29.:34:33.

debate is about the revival of the application and the private bill

:34:34.:34:38.

rather than the substance of the bill itself. I give way. He has

:34:39.:34:44.

pointed out that there is a need for the revival motion because the bill

:34:45.:34:50.

has not succeeded earlier this year. I wonder if his eyebrows rahsed

:34:51.:34:55.

slightly at the fact that it has taken five years. I wonder hf he's

:34:56.:35:00.

going to indicate why that lay be the case. I think the honourable

:35:01.:35:06.

member for his comment. The process has taken some time, they wdre

:35:07.:35:14.

very... Various different applications for considerathon for

:35:15.:35:16.

amendments which is why the promoters of the bill have `mended

:35:17.:35:25.

the bill to allow people objected to it to see changes to the bill which

:35:26.:35:30.

would benefit the whole process The purpose of this bill, is to provide

:35:31.:35:36.

transport for London with the additional power so that thdy can

:35:37.:35:39.

meet its business, more flexibly and take advantage of more efficient

:35:40.:35:45.

arrangements for the stewardship of its financial affairs. It whll allow

:35:46.:35:49.

them to maximise the value of its assets and delivered signifhcantly

:35:50.:35:56.

better to the pain public which should be something we all `gree

:35:57.:36:01.

with. It is responsible for one of the worlds busiest transport

:36:02.:36:12.

networks... I give way. I rdcognise that he has lived with this bill for

:36:13.:36:17.

a very long time. I am coming to it fresh and I wondered if he could

:36:18.:36:19.

tell me whether there is anxthing in this bill which might give hope to

:36:20.:36:24.

my constituents and indeed to one or two of his. Who are waiting and

:36:25.:36:35.

continue to wait in vain for access and improvements. Will this bill

:36:36.:36:43.

help to sort that out? I am weary of straining too far from the principal

:36:44.:36:46.

of the revival of the bill, because I know that there are transport

:36:47.:36:51.

needs across London am a thdre are transport improvements that we would

:36:52.:36:56.

all like to see. The key pohnt here is that by ensuring they have the

:36:57.:36:59.

ability to maintain its fin`nces efficiently and effectively it means

:37:00.:37:03.

that the improvements that ly honourable colleague and nehghbour

:37:04.:37:09.

would like to see can be brought to fruition and some of my own

:37:10.:37:12.

constituency would like to see things brought to fruition `s well.

:37:13.:37:16.

As I will come onto the aspdct of the bill which not to find the

:37:17.:37:21.

answers need to be improved, it means that we need more mondy for

:37:22.:37:25.

the transport improvements to the infrastructure that we all wish to

:37:26.:37:31.

see. I will give way second time to my honourable fellow. I am very

:37:32.:37:35.

grateful for to giving way. He will forgive me for being a little bit

:37:36.:37:39.

uncharitable and suggesting that his answer was a tad vague on the

:37:40.:37:45.

question. I know the station is a significant issue for him, H will

:37:46.:37:49.

happily... AP will use the hnfluence he undoubtably has with the TFL as a

:37:50.:37:55.

result of being asked to be the promoter of this bill that they

:37:56.:38:01.

bring forward improved access regiments as a matter of sole

:38:02.:38:09.

urgency. I think it for pressing the point, which I know is a vital

:38:10.:38:17.

aspect to the improvement that needs to take place in London. Can

:38:18.:38:25.

actually conclude with answdring the point that was made by my honourable

:38:26.:38:31.

colleague? I will use the opportunity with TFL and others to

:38:32.:38:33.

ensure that we get the improvements that we want to see at both

:38:34.:38:40.

stations. I give way to the honourable Lady. Stencil within he's

:38:41.:38:47.

a man of great influence for transport for London, will xou take

:38:48.:38:53.

up the cause of another station Obbi close in six months in order to

:38:54.:38:57.

renew a list. I do not understand why, why do we need to have the

:38:58.:39:03.

whole train station closed there are lives. It seems to be

:39:04.:39:04.

incomprehensible. -- let's. I do know that station as one of the

:39:05.:39:28.

one... Interesting enough, there is substantial amount of money and to

:39:29.:39:33.

actually ensure that the tr`nsport system around the Emirates was

:39:34.:39:37.

improved traumatically on the rebuilding of the Stadium. There are

:39:38.:39:44.

concerns about how that mondy was used and whether it was used in the

:39:45.:39:48.

proper way. However, what I will say to the honourable ladies th`t

:39:49.:39:55.

clearly I realise there is ` need to renew it there I would rathdr we

:39:56.:39:58.

have a list at Harrow Hill says there is no lift there. As well as

:39:59.:40:05.

improving... Let me give wax to another honourable Lady frol London

:40:06.:40:10.

who also would have an aspect of London transport to bring up. I m

:40:11.:40:14.

grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. I am from Ndw York

:40:15.:40:24.

Central constituency. I do want to ask a question on your openhng

:40:25.:40:32.

remarks. Said the financial position of transport for London will be

:40:33.:40:35.

improved as a consequence for this bill stop the I will like to know

:40:36.:40:38.

the premise and we should m`ke that assumption? If the honourable Lady

:40:39.:40:43.

would let me advance further in my speech I will prefer to that

:40:44.:40:47.

specific issue in a few momdnts For colleagues across the House and

:40:48.:40:55.

beyond, the reality is, if H can make a bit of progress. TFL is

:40:56.:40:59.

responsible for one of the worlds biggest transport networks, there

:41:00.:41:08.

are 1.3 billion passengers hn the last year. It is responsibld for a

:41:09.:41:11.

multi-billion investment programme to improve the capacity and the

:41:12.:41:16.

connectivity of the transport network. London underground,

:41:17.:41:20.

response will for the tube service has it achieved improved service

:41:21.:41:26.

with a 40% improvement in rdcent times. Sent TFL over in Novdmber

:41:27.:41:36.

2007, the demand for the services has risen. It has been cut by two

:41:37.:41:41.

thirds and customer satisfaction has improved up to 82%. TFL is providing

:41:42.:41:47.

25% more capacity to overground services to help meet the growing

:41:48.:41:52.

demand that there is the network was expanded in May ten include West

:41:53.:41:59.

Anglia in a suburban route. TFL is the joint sponsor for Crossrail

:42:00.:42:05.

which is the largest transport project undertaken in the c`pital

:42:06.:42:09.

for many years. The deliverx company is wholly owned subsidiary... I give

:42:10.:42:19.

way to the honourable Lady. I may prioritise Harrow on the Hill that

:42:20.:42:25.

needs improvement. But therd are a whole wave of people, Londoners who

:42:26.:42:30.

have hoped they would be able to get onto the tube network and that is

:42:31.:42:35.

people with disabilities who need level access. My own constituency,

:42:36.:42:41.

two stations were promised level access, disabled access and now this

:42:42.:42:46.

projects have stopped. Is it because of the lay in this bill or some

:42:47.:42:52.

other problems that TFL has? -- delay. TFL has been the invdsting in

:42:53.:43:00.

access for disabled people by dramatically over the past ten

:43:01.:43:06.

years. I do remember that the points the honourable Lady mentiondd were

:43:07.:43:10.

raised under the previous M`yor of London and were not deliverdd. I am

:43:11.:43:19.

going to go on out to the kdy points of the bill. The bill has only

:43:20.:43:29.

gotten four clauses. It will enable TFL to deliver better value for

:43:30.:43:33.

money for the taxpayer and the taxpaying public. Says the bill was

:43:34.:43:39.

deposited, TFL's operation funding from central government has been cut

:43:40.:43:45.

by 25% and the government's aim is to reduce the funding overthme to

:43:46.:43:51.

0%. It has deliver ?16 billhon of savings over the period two 202 , it

:43:52.:43:59.

it will exist in this particular regard. In summary, Clause four will

:44:00.:44:06.

give it the ability to access cheaper finance, subject to the

:44:07.:44:10.

consent of the mayor and in respect to the core operational assdts to

:44:11.:44:15.

the consent of the Secretarx of State. Clearly there'll an

:44:16.:44:19.

opportunity for members, melbers of Parliament, to have oversight of

:44:20.:44:22.

such proposals. Clause five will allow TFL to form limited

:44:23.:44:28.

partnerships... Let me conclude first. Clause five will allow TFL to

:44:29.:44:34.

form limited partnerships and follow scrutiny of the bill by the postal

:44:35.:44:39.

committee, the Clause was alended to provide that the Secretary of State

:44:40.:44:44.

must consent to the formation of the limited partnership by way of

:44:45.:44:49.

order. Which is debated in both houses of parliament. On thd

:44:50.:44:53.

principle of transparency of these limited partnerships, which I know

:44:54.:44:58.

is one of the concerns, particularly raised by objectors, there'll be

:44:59.:45:07.

public debate over such arrangements. I give way to my

:45:08.:45:10.

honourable colleague once again I am grateful to him for giving way.

:45:11.:45:17.

He talks about oversight by members of this house. Is there not a

:45:18.:45:21.

concern that he will acknowledge that actually, there ought to be

:45:22.:45:25.

governments on a non-regular basis, oversight on a more regular basis in

:45:26.:45:32.

London. And that the governlents of TFL as a whole needs reform to

:45:33.:45:37.

oversee the arrangements in this bill, but also to give people in

:45:38.:45:43.

London more of a stake in the big decisions about TFL's futurd. Sales,

:45:44.:45:50.

there rises in other big decisions TFL has to make. I think my article

:45:51.:45:57.

called for that intervention. - I thank my honourable friend. He was a

:45:58.:46:04.

member of the government th`t was set up the arrangements for London

:46:05.:46:07.

in the year 2000, no doubt on record there is a view that he said what

:46:08.:46:15.

should've been then. The kex point here is, as far as the oversight and

:46:16.:46:23.

transparency, there will be an opportunity for particularlx when

:46:24.:46:25.

the limited partnership arr`ngement operation is looked at, for that to

:46:26.:46:30.

be scrutinised by both housds of Parliament. I will give way once

:46:31.:46:38.

more and then I will make progress. It may be that the Labour

:46:39.:46:43.

partnership might be oversed when it was first discovered, will there be

:46:44.:46:46.

anything to stop those in control of the other partnerships changing at a

:46:47.:46:50.

later date and not having control over that will he be able to help

:46:51.:46:58.

us? Clearly both the initial set up will be scrutinised by both houses.

:46:59.:47:03.

If there was to be any substantial change to the way that will be

:47:04.:47:07.

structured, clearly there whll be an opportunity for oversight and her

:47:08.:47:17.

point of view through London assembly and the Mayor of London I

:47:18.:47:22.

am sure that nothing will bd done to prevent proper oversight. Is a

:47:23.:47:29.

something specifically in the bill that would stop the control over

:47:30.:47:34.

partnership moving from one organisation or individual to

:47:35.:47:38.

another? And at that point with there be some form of overshght that

:47:39.:47:44.

would stop the transfer of control? I thank the honourable Lady. This is

:47:45.:47:51.

something on the revival of the bill, she wouldn't have been to

:47:52.:47:57.

express further we come to the debate for changes to the bhll. This

:47:58.:48:02.

is not a point of the reviv`l of the bill,... Can I go on to the other

:48:03.:48:09.

clauses before I conclude? Clause six explains the entities through

:48:10.:48:16.

which TFL can undertake comlercial activities to include limitdd

:48:17.:48:20.

partnerships, limited liability partnerships and companies limited

:48:21.:48:22.

by guarantee. All this enables TFL to conduct, there's more fldxibly

:48:23.:48:29.

and meet the maximum value from the assets. Clause seven gives TFL

:48:30.:48:32.

greater flexibility to mitigate its risk through hedging and allowing it

:48:33.:48:41.

to... When it is exposed to fluctuations at the consequdnce of a

:48:42.:48:45.

transfer contract and TFL's contribution risk to the pension

:48:46.:48:50.

funds. Contrary to the assertions made in the second reading `nd

:48:51.:48:55.

elsewhere, the bill does not get TFL any new powers to sell or ddvelop

:48:56.:49:00.

its land. TFL has had such powers since it was created in the year

:49:01.:49:05.

2000 and it is not seeking to extend them in any way shape or form. TFL

:49:06.:49:09.

must obtain the consent of the mayor to dispose of surplus by sale or

:49:10.:49:17.

granting long-term lease. It has operational man in the past for five

:49:18.:49:21.

years, the Secretary of State must also give his or her consent. TFL is

:49:22.:49:27.

also subject to scrutiny by the assembly, has various oblig`tions to

:49:28.:49:33.

publish financial details and details of the surplus and building

:49:34.:49:38.

assets. The powers TFL is sdeking in the bill will not detract from

:49:39.:49:42.

TFL's discharge of his core functions and the discrete leasures

:49:43.:49:47.

of the bill should be taken as indicative... I will not give

:49:48.:49:54.

way... Of a desire to meet hts business these more effectively

:49:55.:49:57.

flexibly and cost-effectively. One of the key issues that has been

:49:58.:50:02.

identified throughout the whole process and what we all in this

:50:03.:50:05.

house share is the opportunhty for TFL to maximise the developlent of

:50:06.:50:10.

assets for housing purposes. If this bill is finally brought to law, TFL

:50:11.:50:17.

will be releasing more than 300 acres of land in London to help

:50:18.:50:22.

create more than 10,000 new homes across London. 67% of this phase of

:50:23.:50:31.

development is in trial zonds one and two. TFL is working with the

:50:32.:50:36.

major, I am not giving way `nymore, London buyers and the commercial

:50:37.:50:40.

property development sector to bring forward developments in a ndw and

:50:41.:50:44.

creative way. The additional powers in this bill will enable thdse

:50:45.:50:48.

developments to take... Ple`se were officially enabling more of the

:50:49.:50:52.

revenue raised from the devdlopments to be reinvested into the transport

:50:53.:50:56.

network and bear down on fares. Those people who oppose this bill

:50:57.:51:03.

and the revival of this bill will be -- will fell to... I am not giving

:51:04.:51:16.

away any further. The benefhts this bill were bring, it is essential

:51:17.:51:22.

that the bill becomes law as soon as possible. I will be eager to listen

:51:23.:51:27.

to contributions of the members opposite in particular. Givdn that

:51:28.:51:35.

the whole aspect of the campaign which is surely to be run whll be

:51:36.:51:41.

vital that we give the Mayor of London the opportunity to create

:51:42.:51:43.

much-needed housing and 10,000 housing units one 300 acres of

:51:44.:51:50.

language is redundant, suggdst to me that this is a great opporttnity

:51:51.:51:54.

which is being denied and prevented the shenanigans of the membdrs

:51:55.:52:00.

opposite. I therefore moved, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the bill should

:52:01.:52:04.

be revised so can complete hts passage through the House. H trust

:52:05.:52:07.

that you'll ensure during the of this debate that the members will

:52:08.:52:11.

constrain themselves to the subject of the revival of this bill. I am

:52:12.:52:22.

concerned about Clause five in particular of this bill. I `m

:52:23.:52:29.

concerned about the idea of limited partnerships. Limited partndrships

:52:30.:52:33.

as far as I understand or lhmited liability partnerships, werd

:52:34.:52:38.

established in 1907 and there were to enable peoples to become partners

:52:39.:52:42.

without taking on liability. That needs to be a general partndr who

:52:43.:52:45.

will be liable for everything. But then those who are coming into

:52:46.:52:48.

partnership with and maybe giving money towards will not have any form

:52:49.:52:53.

of liability at all. He unddrstand it is a means of raising capital,

:52:54.:52:59.

but it does seem to be very worrying that who it is these partners may

:53:00.:53:04.

be. We have heard all kinds of scare stories and relations to thhs and I

:53:05.:53:07.

will be very interested to hear some reassurance about this. I whll give

:53:08.:53:14.

way. When she describes this bill done at limited liability, hs in her

:53:15.:53:19.

conclusion that the limits of that liability in the limited partnership

:53:20.:53:26.

arrangements could actually be nil? Is that her understanding? H believe

:53:27.:53:32.

that is exactly what the position is. Is a legal intranet that was

:53:33.:53:38.

created in order to be able to help raise money. The difficulty is, we

:53:39.:53:47.

are raising money on public land, land that is owned by you and me, it

:53:48.:53:51.

is owned by all of us and wd are to be handing over some sort of

:53:52.:53:55.

liability or some sort of investment in this land, by organisations. Is

:53:56.:54:03.

there anything to stop, for example, these partners being offshore

:54:04.:54:08.

companies, is there anything to stop them from establishing themselves

:54:09.:54:13.

with ?2 worth of capital. Is there anything to stop them and they are

:54:14.:54:18.

established with some peopld on the face of the documents being

:54:19.:54:20.

responsible for the company and then a later stage the Russian M`fia

:54:21.:54:26.

taking over instead. Are we handing over Caledonian Road, some of the

:54:27.:54:33.

developments within my constituency, potential devdlopments

:54:34.:54:37.

in my constituency to such people? I certainly hope not. Does worry me

:54:38.:54:40.

though we are reviving a bill that may impact be null and void. I fully

:54:41.:54:56.

understand that. I went to bed with the...

:54:57.:55:04.

I noticed that these answers are deep in thought and I'm not taking

:55:05.:55:13.

their interventions on some of the matters of this bill. If thhs bill

:55:14.:55:16.

is to be were bogged she must be relieved that we have

:55:17.:55:23.

I genuinely think we should. As we are talking about large swathes of

:55:24.:55:30.

publicly owned land in the centre of a capital. I have to tell hhm that

:55:31.:55:34.

when it comes to Brownfield sites in my constituency I have the least

:55:35.:55:38.

amount of green space of anx MP in this entire country and all our

:55:39.:55:41.

Brownfield sites need to be looked at very carefully in order to be

:55:42.:55:45.

able to maximise housing. The honourable gentleman talked about

:55:46.:55:48.

housing. I agree, but frankly we do not need the likes of the

:55:49.:55:53.

development that is happening at the moment on our can out wear `

:55:54.:55:57.

one-bedroom flat is being sold for ?826,000. That is not affordable

:55:58.:56:02.

housing for any people who lived in Islington at the moment. We need to

:56:03.:56:06.

be looking at real affordable housing for those sites. Thhs bill

:56:07.:56:09.

does not seem to me to show any control over that. This is ` really

:56:10.:56:16.

important point because too often people talk about housing ntmbers

:56:17.:56:20.

and they bandy around this ward affordable which is by no mdans

:56:21.:56:24.

affordable by any standards for most people in London. Talking about 300

:56:25.:56:28.

acres of land to be made av`ilable for housing when people frol London

:56:29.:56:34.

and those on low incomes will not be able to access that housing will

:56:35.:56:37.

conjure beat nothing to the housing needs that we have in London --

:56:38.:56:42.

contribute nothing. A have to say when it comes to Islington

:56:43.:56:47.

residents, they can be of hhgh incomes, seen as high incomds and

:56:48.:56:51.

they are very concerned abott their children just as those in mhddle

:56:52.:56:55.

income and low incomes. How their children born in Islington remain in

:56:56.:56:59.

Islington given the prices of housing into the Mayor of London,

:57:00.:57:04.

reference has been made to the Mayor is answer to that has been to

:57:05.:57:08.

redefine affordable housing. It is a little bit like any rid of child

:57:09.:57:11.

poverty by taking income out of the definition of child poverty. I am

:57:12.:57:17.

grateful for my honourable friend giving way on that point. In

:57:18.:57:22.

Westminster, you now need an income of ?77,000 in order to be able to

:57:23.:57:26.

afford what the Mayor of London has deemed as unaffordable propdrty My

:57:27.:57:31.

constituents like her look `t the proliferation of new developments on

:57:32.:57:34.

some of these sites she is describing and see these properties

:57:35.:57:37.

going up which they will never have the remotest chance of being able to

:57:38.:57:40.

afford. They do not just want to the building, they want to the building

:57:41.:57:43.

of affordable homes they have a chance of being able to accdss. The

:57:44.:57:48.

point is this. Once the land is gone is gone forever. Once the ltxury

:57:49.:57:52.

flats are built there is no chance of Islington residents ever being

:57:53.:58:00.

able to afford to buy them. Once a luxury flat is gone and we do not

:58:01.:58:03.

have social housing were re`l affordable housing built in in

:58:04.:58:05.

London that is it. We need to defend very carefully this land th`t is

:58:06.:58:10.

available. 80% of market rent, which is what the Mayor of London now

:58:11.:58:12.

decides is affordable housing if they last. -- a last. One c`nnot

:58:13.:58:21.

laugh because it is tragic. Is a little bit like 1984. This

:58:22.:58:26.

misspeaking as things like hs white and say it long enough and hopefully

:58:27.:58:29.

some people will start to bdlieve it. But 80% of market rent hn the

:58:30.:58:33.

context of this is not affordable housing. I read with alarm what was

:58:34.:58:38.

said in the financial Times about housing. When the transport for

:58:39.:58:41.

London were talking about housing they were talking about affordable

:58:42.:58:45.

housing in the honourable gentleman's and stability in outer

:58:46.:58:49.

London but not in inner London. I have 21,000 people on the w`iting

:58:50.:58:52.

list for housing in Islington. Does this bill have any answer to any

:58:53.:58:59.

other problems width I give way We are being distracted from one of the

:59:00.:59:03.

main points of this will is there payers and taxpayers presently

:59:04.:59:07.

bearing the cost and risk of the lack of capacity to finance as it

:59:08.:59:14.

says in Clause four to finance projects of the best available

:59:15.:59:19.

interest rates. Without givhng this a safe passage we are bearing the

:59:20.:59:23.

risk on our constituency of there payers and taxpayers. Is acceptable?

:59:24.:59:28.

The honourable gentleman rahses an important point. It brings ts back

:59:29.:59:31.

to another rumour which is the other rumour that ?700 million in the CSR

:59:32.:59:37.

is going to be taken away from transport for London and thdrefore

:59:38.:59:41.

transport for London is even more in desperate need of a fire sale of our

:59:42.:59:45.

property of our land in orddr to be able to subsidize payers. London is

:59:46.:59:51.

the greatest capital in the world. We need to have proper transport

:59:52.:59:58.

system which is appropriate, which helps us in the city to continue to

:59:59.:00:01.

be the lifeblood of this cotntry. It does seem to me to be short,sighted

:00:02.:00:07.

in the greatest extent to t`ke away subsidy from transport for London

:00:08.:00:10.

because our state will grind to a halt. Once we have sold off that and

:00:11.:00:15.

one of the opportunity for ly constituents to live in affordable

:00:16.:00:17.

housing have gone for the s`ke of them being able to have che`per

:00:18.:00:21.

fares for a year or two, wh`t do we do then when we have sold off this

:00:22.:00:27.

in the way it is being suggdsted? To she agree with me that risk comes in

:00:28.:00:31.

many different forms and thd evening standard revealed a few weeks ago

:00:32.:00:34.

that the London property market since 2008 has been ?100 billion

:00:35.:00:40.

worth of investment from ovdrseas property of. Some of which hs from

:00:41.:00:47.

there he dodgy sources and some is a money laundering process and that

:00:48.:00:50.

kind of investment in property where that property is not transport

:00:51.:00:53.

transparent and not properlx managed a risk to the London property and

:00:54.:01:01.

other sources which depend on that? All of us will probably havd been

:01:02.:01:04.

down the river and seen all the development delete back devdlopment

:01:05.:01:08.

that are happening and look to see how many have lights at night. If

:01:09.:01:12.

they do not have a light on people are not living there and it is

:01:13.:01:15.

simply someone in Singapore who can buy a bag of gold and invest in a

:01:16.:01:19.

bag of gold or think let's buy a flat in South London on the river,

:01:20.:01:25.

lovely view. Someone looking at it and we can invest that and keep it

:01:26.:01:31.

for years, for decades and those empty flats are laughing at my

:01:32.:01:34.

constituents. They're laughhng at my constituents who are in desperate

:01:35.:01:38.

need of proper housing and ht does seem to me that this is an

:01:39.:01:40.

opportunity that is being... Frittered away. Wasn't not

:01:41.:01:50.

surprising am I apologise for how I am appearing, charitable to him as a

:01:51.:01:54.

Tottenham than one should always be charitable to the honourabld

:01:55.:02:02.

member. Stuff she not accept the concern -- does she not accdpt the

:02:03.:02:07.

concern that the old Oak colmon experience and the lack of

:02:08.:02:09.

affordable housing on that side for negotiation that CFL into that site

:02:10.:02:16.

has scarred those of us who come to look at this particular mothon and

:02:17.:02:23.

that perhaps the honourable member might persuade CFL to look `fresh at

:02:24.:02:29.

the bill in light of those concerns and come back with some mord

:02:30.:02:33.

amendments perhaps around the future governance and oversight of any deal

:02:34.:02:38.

that are done? The honourable gentleman makes a really important

:02:39.:02:42.

point. Essentially, what thd sponsors of this bill are s`ying to

:02:43.:02:46.

us and what CFL is saying is trust us. Trust us, let us enter hnto

:02:47.:02:52.

limited partnerships with who knows to. S enter into limited partnership

:02:53.:02:59.

which is not a distinct leg`l entity which has a clear consequence or

:03:00.:03:02.

public transparency. We cannot for example youth they freedom of

:03:03.:03:06.

information act to find out who was behind the partnerships that CFL may

:03:07.:03:13.

be getting into. -- TFL. But as that week they do not worry about it we

:03:14.:03:17.

can be trusted. The difficulty is TFL's behaviour over the past two

:03:18.:03:20.

years with some of the developments we know about shows that in fact we

:03:21.:03:27.

cannot trust them. Caledoni`n Road is not a frivolous example, it is

:03:28.:03:32.

the horrible gentleman -- at least that is one of the few to b`sins

:03:33.:03:35.

available for the large number of people who go to watch the highly

:03:36.:03:40.

successful Arsenal football club play copy one of the few th`t have

:03:41.:03:45.

disabled access. Is one of the few with disabled access that is going

:03:46.:03:48.

to be closed for six months. What about Arsenal fans in wheelchairs

:03:49.:03:52.

over that time? Is TFL cannot look after a tube station that h`s four

:03:53.:03:57.

live staff they tell me that they need to close it for six months

:03:58.:04:00.

because they have to renew one of the lift shaft and yet they have two

:04:01.:04:04.

functional lives at the momdnt and are going to stop both of them. I

:04:05.:04:10.

say lift capacity is only 50% subject one while repairing the

:04:11.:04:12.

other. They say what happens if the lift breaks down? You have lift

:04:13.:04:19.

engineers on-site, TFL, you are redoing the others do what hs the

:04:20.:04:23.

problem? It seems to me that if TFL has difficulty running a tube

:04:24.:04:27.

station then I have some concerns about their ability as a property

:04:28.:04:30.

developer particularly if they go into partnership. They may be

:04:31.:04:36.

perfectly adequate, perfectly.. They may go into partnership with

:04:37.:04:40.

the latter-day people, that would be fantastic. Great if they went into

:04:41.:04:44.

partnership with someone who really wanted to provide housing that is

:04:45.:04:47.

entirely appropriate for my constituents. The difficultx is I do

:04:48.:04:51.

not believe that anti-do not think the honourable gentleman th`t

:04:52.:04:55.

either. What CFL are trying to do is make as much money as they can out

:04:56.:04:59.

of Atlanta and they will not make as much money out of affordabld housing

:05:00.:05:04.

as they out of luxury flats up yellow delete back. Realising the

:05:05.:05:12.

maximum Valley of value of the assets is based on it structure as

:05:13.:05:16.

it suits the best investment opportunity. It is not a prd-body

:05:17.:05:20.

trust, it is someone who wants to know the accident League absolute

:05:21.:05:25.

max that is why the foot st`bility is there. It is and ask no puestions

:05:26.:05:28.

policy we do not care who you are not quite right concern is that the

:05:29.:05:32.

partner that is going to be taking unlimited risk will be asked. Here's

:05:33.:05:37.

my constituents not getting what they need, their public assdts being

:05:38.:05:41.

fire sales and yet they're taking the risk. If something goes wrong,

:05:42.:05:46.

it is best those fine, it is the property market collapses... Is

:05:47.:05:52.

there not a further risk th`t the partner that TFL goes into business

:05:53.:05:55.

with on a particular site lhke Caledonian Road, suppose a goes

:05:56.:06:02.

bust. Surely then TFL will be left with a very large potentially cost

:06:03.:06:07.

and will be a further risk to taxpayers and make getting the list

:06:08.:06:13.

at Harrow on the hell would I be far more important than those at

:06:14.:06:16.

Caledonian Road and make it even more distant prospect. It does seem

:06:17.:06:23.

to me that it is as though the risk is being nationalised and the profit

:06:24.:06:26.

is being privatised. That is what is happening here for the sake of

:06:27.:06:31.

George Osborne being able to balance the books when it comes to the SR. I

:06:32.:06:37.

am grateful to you giving w`y on this occasion because when we were

:06:38.:06:40.

talking about risk is there not a further risk that actually tax from

:06:41.:06:44.

some of these property developers may be offshore and they max not pay

:06:45.:06:48.

them fact the Treasury will be needing even must money on that land

:06:49.:06:53.

up what I think there are m`ny questions to be asked about what the

:06:54.:06:58.

status of the partners who TFL will be able to go into partnership with

:06:59.:07:02.

is. Will they be offshore? Will they be paying taxes? Will they be able

:07:03.:07:07.

to move the management or control of these partnerships from one hearty

:07:08.:07:13.

to another without there behng any ability on behalf of of us `s the

:07:14.:07:18.

public, it is our land to bd able to stop that? One years many scary

:07:19.:07:22.

stories. Money from all the love being laundered through Scotland.

:07:23.:07:26.

All sorts of extraordinary things that go on with these instrtments.

:07:27.:07:36.

My concern is that the limited our dinners are only liable for the

:07:37.:07:40.

value of any investment that they make and the limited partner does

:07:41.:07:43.

not need to be involved in the management of the partnershhp. They

:07:44.:07:47.

put their money and. That is the extent of their liability. Their

:07:48.:07:50.

liability is no more than that. We do not know what profits thdy will

:07:51.:07:53.

be able to make or whether or not they will be paying any tax in this

:07:54.:07:56.

country. I think these questions need to be asked you for review by

:07:57.:08:01.

this bill. I will give way. What about this question? Apart from my

:08:02.:08:08.

dear paint taxpaying constituents as well as heard they're being asked

:08:09.:08:10.

about project and future projects whether they are offering the best

:08:11.:08:16.

interest rate for the lowest risk? They'll be wanting that to be

:08:17.:08:21.

achieved. That is not enabld that to happen, not the least cause for I

:08:22.:08:24.

do not know if it does quitd frankly. It seems to me that it is

:08:25.:08:30.

vague in the extreme and it seems to me that in my view it is entirely

:08:31.:08:35.

inappropriate for private ddlete back public assets for a public

:08:36.:08:38.

company to go into partnership with who knows who for us to be `ble to

:08:39.:08:44.

take the risk of putting it out there seeing it come forward, seeing

:08:45.:08:48.

them put up the money if thdy put up the money. This is my be slhppery

:08:49.:08:52.

gel operation we ought to bd dealing with. This is in the centre of

:08:53.:08:55.

London in my constituency which I do not wish to book these control to

:08:56.:09:02.

who knows -- I wish to not give control up yellow I realised she had

:09:03.:09:07.

concerns and I will try to be helpful if I may. In terms of

:09:08.:09:11.

answering the questions askdd he has asked she might wish to talk to

:09:12.:09:16.

labour Sheffield were Labour Gateshead who have all entered into

:09:17.:09:19.

similar joint limited partndrships to see how they have worked. I do

:09:20.:09:28.

not know about... I do not know what the conditions are in relathon to

:09:29.:09:33.

the limited partnership. If the honourable gentleman wishes to

:09:34.:09:35.

enlighten me I will give wax again. I think it is a question of what

:09:36.:09:43.

controls are available up ydllow. Sheffield our local housing company

:09:44.:09:49.

where the Council invested the property but the joint venttre

:09:50.:09:52.

partner invested the financd. There were shared risk. Council ptt in the

:09:53.:10:00.

land but the private investor but in the money copy Gateshead local asset

:10:01.:10:04.

back... I believe the vehicle and just by the devious governmdnt again

:10:05.:10:09.

where the council put in thd property but the private sector put

:10:10.:10:14.

in the finance. As the honotrable gentleman said there was sole form

:10:15.:10:19.

of shared risk. But there is no shared risk in this instrumdnt as I

:10:20.:10:23.

understand it and if I am wrong I am open to being corrected but I do not

:10:24.:10:28.

believe I am. That is essentially my concern. I am grateful to the

:10:29.:10:36.

honourable member for raising the example of Sheffield becausd

:10:37.:10:40.

Sheffield has a company that is an extremely interesting model. Not

:10:41.:10:44.

least I am surprised to hear a conservative pushing the ex`mple of

:10:45.:10:47.

local housing companies being set up because they enable the right to

:10:48.:10:53.

buy, not to apply to any properties that are built by such houshng

:10:54.:10:57.

companies. Very odd that thd honourable member should lax that in

:10:58.:11:01.

advance given the context of some of the other pictures of legislation

:11:02.:11:06.

this house at the moment. I'm very grateful to the honourable

:11:07.:11:10.

gentleman. I believe that wd ought to be focusing on whether or not

:11:11.:11:13.

this bill can be revived or not and whether this bill is actually going

:11:14.:11:18.

to make London a better place because my fundamental belidf is

:11:19.:11:21.

that it will not. There are more questions in relation to thhs band

:11:22.:11:24.

there are answers and it was about disposing of land all over London

:11:25.:11:29.

and much of it is operation`l land. The question is, although some of it

:11:30.:11:33.

may be appropriate for development some of it may not be. Who hs to say

:11:34.:11:38.

whether or not these shady partners may not be pushing TFL into an

:11:39.:11:44.

appropriate development so that we need to have housing, but where

:11:45.:11:49.

might we have housing or ex`mple. There is a large tract of l`nd, very

:11:50.:11:54.

valuable on the face of it by Farringdon station by Farringdon

:11:55.:11:58.

Road but at the moment, where there'll be a possibility of that

:11:59.:12:02.

land team build over and sole sort of flats being built there? I do not

:12:03.:12:06.

know. Will there be a possibility of building something over old Street?

:12:07.:12:12.

Old Greek is a phenomenal station, it has two wells in it, I do not

:12:13.:12:16.

know how it functions as a tube station. But what kind of property

:12:17.:12:19.

might be built on top of th`t? We may well find that these sh`dy

:12:20.:12:25.

partners might be pushing TFL into developing areas like that which

:12:26.:12:28.

would be entirely inapproprhate for the building of flats even luxury

:12:29.:12:33.

flats. It does seem to me that we should be very careful about that.

:12:34.:12:38.

If we end up with restrict `nd TFL's ability to be able to invest

:12:39.:12:43.

more greatly in the future hn transport in London the casd we have

:12:44.:12:48.

caged in a particular area because we booked a block of flats on a

:12:49.:12:52.

particular place and not allowing them to continue to develop the

:12:53.:12:56.

transport system London needs and deserves, that again is another rest

:12:57.:13:01.

it seems to me in relation to this soppy delete back. Isn't thdre a

:13:02.:13:12.

distinction between other places and London? Is that there is no risk

:13:13.:13:19.

involved whatsoever and invdsting in the property market in London.

:13:20.:13:22.

People are investing in a gold mine so there is no need for special

:13:23.:13:27.

purpose vehicles or any othdr such arrangements that may not whthstand

:13:28.:13:30.

scrutiny. Isn't that the bed allergy of the situation? Certainly the wave

:13:31.:13:37.

things seem at the moment. The property market in London only goes

:13:38.:13:40.

upward. We will see what happens in the future. Has to be an end to it

:13:41.:13:46.

and there may be some form of risk. One of the risk has to be something

:13:47.:13:49.

like finding espressos. If there was to be asbestos found at an

:13:50.:13:53.

development site then what happens? The risk again is nationalised and

:13:54.:13:58.

the profits are privatised. You mentioned espressos, but despite

:13:59.:14:04.

which begat all this nonsense, exhibition site which is coling down

:14:05.:14:07.

at the moment and which is absolutely full of espressos, full

:14:08.:14:12.

of huge risk here. The brakds are being taken off and it does seem at

:14:13.:14:17.

the moment as you said, people in London think it needs to be

:14:18.:14:21.

something to ease up the London property market. The London property

:14:22.:14:25.

market did not have control as it is. Commercial Ackermann cotld

:14:26.:14:31.

really think it should prioritise building more luxury flats `nd

:14:32.:14:34.

whoever turns up to build them are making that as easy as posshble with

:14:35.:14:40.

no questions asked. I have to say at representing the area that H do and

:14:41.:14:44.

living in the area that ide` I cannot agree with the honourable

:14:45.:14:47.

gentleman more. It does seel to me that there is the property larket

:14:48.:14:54.

continues... The government will say let's cut back on the amount of

:14:55.:14:57.

housing benefits available `nd that would dampen down the property

:14:58.:15:01.

market. I last because clearly that is not what happens. The prhces of

:15:02.:15:07.

rent continued to go up. Thd prices of property continue to go tp and

:15:08.:15:11.

are essentially pricing Londoners out of London. If we end up with an

:15:12.:15:15.

unviable London, if it conthnues to eat itself in London will no longer

:15:16.:15:19.

continue to function and maxbe that will be fine for TFL becausd no one

:15:20.:15:22.

will need to travel into London anymore because people will not be

:15:23.:15:25.

able to live or work in London because they want me to be living so

:15:26.:15:29.

far out of London that will be impossible for people to bux a bleep

:15:30.:15:35.

be able to come into work and such. I am grateful to my honourable

:15:36.:15:39.

friend because she will havd heard the honourable member when he was

:15:40.:15:47.

moving this motion that TFL should be allowed to maximise incole from

:15:48.:15:51.

the sale of this land and in areas where those land values are

:15:52.:15:56.

extremely high, that is likdly to, as she already pointed out, squeeze

:15:57.:16:02.

out any affordable housing to social rent or to buy at that rate. Yet TFL

:16:03.:16:07.

is a public body and there hs a shortage of public land within those

:16:08.:16:11.

areas that could be made av`ilable to build social housing. Th`t is why

:16:12.:16:14.

we need to have a proper scrutiny of how this land is used and not just

:16:15.:16:17.

sell it out to the highest dver in every case. It does strike le that

:16:18.:16:23.

if we do not use public land for building affordable housing than

:16:24.:16:27.

what land will we ever use? If we do not use public land than by the time

:16:28.:16:31.

as I say you sell it off and it gets into the hand of private investors

:16:32.:16:36.

that of the end of it in terms of it being within reach of any Londoners.

:16:37.:16:40.

There has been some talk and again perhaps someone might be able to

:16:41.:16:44.

intervene and invite me abott this, there has been talk about there

:16:45.:16:49.

possibly being some vehicle that TFL might be able to use in orddr to be

:16:50.:16:54.

able to insulate itself agahnst the risk, but TFL might be able to set

:16:55.:16:59.

up a subsidiary to insulate itself from the risk. I do not unddrstand

:17:00.:17:05.

what it is that TFL is saying about that and it does seem to me that on

:17:06.:17:09.

the face of it, if TFL conthnues to own the land or to manage the land

:17:10.:17:14.

at the least that the development is going on surely it would be exactly

:17:15.:17:18.

the sort of instrument that any court looking at it would s`y the

:17:19.:17:23.

legal judgement may say one thing but it is quite clear what the

:17:24.:17:26.

reality is and to strike it down. It does seem to me that again, this is

:17:27.:17:31.

a project which is being buhlt on the never never, on very dubious

:17:32.:17:38.

grounds and these questions which are very serious that we ard asking

:17:39.:17:43.

about what risk is this public body being put under, what are you going

:17:44.:17:49.

to do about -- what is TFL going to be doing with our land and what is

:17:50.:17:53.

the future of this in terms of London? There are so many qtestions.

:17:54.:17:58.

I appreciate this bill having a long history and that makes it even more

:17:59.:18:02.

disappointing to say the le`st that these questions cannot be answered.

:18:03.:18:07.

Be TFL has had a long time to be able to... Is not as though these

:18:08.:18:12.

questions have not been askdd of TFL on many occasions and yet wd

:18:13.:18:15.

continue not to have answers to them. It does not seem to md correct

:18:16.:18:21.

that the bill should be revhved I think it would be better to answer

:18:22.:18:27.

that question which is that counsel opinion has not been obtaindd on

:18:28.:18:30.

exactly that point and counsel's opinion is that it has doubts as to

:18:31.:18:35.

whether approach would be whthin the bias at CES TFL and would bd lawful

:18:36.:18:40.

and even as such a subsidiary is formed it would rise the issue of

:18:41.:18:45.

virtual liability. If that were attempted then they field to do so

:18:46.:18:53.

with this bill. -- the Leigh if that is what counsel's opinion h`s been

:18:54.:19:00.

white is TFL not able to relay our fears in relation to this? Ht seems

:19:01.:19:06.

to me to be able to Leigh a pretty fundamental question copy there have

:19:07.:19:11.

been attempts to raise this bill for a number of years now and ydt there

:19:12.:19:15.

is still no answer to be very important questions. It is not

:19:16.:19:19.

enough for TFL to come here and to say to this house please allow this

:19:20.:19:25.

bill to be revived. The Chancellor of the Exchequer is going to take

:19:26.:19:29.

?700 million away from us and we need to sell off our assets and able

:19:30.:19:35.

to be able to fill the gap. That is economically making no sensd and

:19:36.:19:39.

socially it is appalling and politically it is actually certified

:19:40.:19:42.

and not the sort of thing which I think this house said aloud and it

:19:43.:19:51.

is for that reason... Is thd scenario she paints of ?700 million

:19:52.:19:59.

being taken out of TFL's budget and the spending review, and if the

:20:00.:20:05.

audible member -- honourabld members over that against the interdst of

:20:06.:20:09.

constituents and it becomes a reality, would not a better way to

:20:10.:20:16.

plug the gap B2 ensure that there full fiscal devolution or property

:20:17.:20:19.

taxes that are raised in London should be devolved to the m`yor and

:20:20.:20:24.

London local authorities and in that way some of the value that we see

:20:25.:20:30.

rising in the London property market might be able to be captured for

:20:31.:20:34.

investment in housing for investment in public transport and the sort of

:20:35.:20:37.

things that are so controversial that we're now might not be needed?

:20:38.:20:44.

The honourable gentleman telpts me. I understand what he says. @nd there

:20:45.:20:50.

are times when I've London LPs we are arguing for investment hn our

:20:51.:20:56.

infrastructure that we do wonder why it is that London has to beg and

:20:57.:21:02.

London is the driving force behind our economy. I will give wax and a

:21:03.:21:09.

moment. But it is a driving force and so therefore the idea... That

:21:10.:21:16.

TFL can be so short-changed at a time like this. When the economy is

:21:17.:21:20.

supposed to beginning back on its feet, finally coming out of the

:21:21.:21:24.

recession caused by the international financial crisis. We

:21:25.:21:28.

are finally come out of it despite the notorious groaning about it for

:21:29.:21:33.

a large number of years we seem to be finally staggering our w`y out of

:21:34.:21:41.

it. Why is it that anytime H is .. The honourable ladies estim`te

:21:42.:21:44.

sedentary position staggering. There are 3 million people in this country

:21:45.:21:47.

who believe themselves to bd underemployed. Despite the fact that

:21:48.:21:53.

there may be more people employed and the number of hours we `re

:21:54.:21:57.

working as a nation has gond down. So yes I say staggering. I think she

:21:58.:22:05.

is being tempted down a particular path and I simply wish to bring to

:22:06.:22:11.

her attention that leads on these benches we in it all togethdr and

:22:12.:22:15.

there is a momentum and in imperative that we actually stayed

:22:16.:22:21.

together and solidarity of the order of the day. Not to forget that

:22:22.:22:24.

though read Day those regions have made a major on to be sent to this

:22:25.:22:30.

city and in building stage `nd the rest of I'm asking her not to be

:22:31.:22:33.

dude tempted by my honourable friend's proposition that white

:22:34.:22:37.

Yankee to my Conrad for bringing me back to from the brink. Perhaps I

:22:38.:22:46.

can help my old boyfriend pttting in a different way. Some great

:22:47.:22:53.

engineering and real rape towns around the country from Central York

:22:54.:22:58.

I think she hit the nail on the had in saying that point from the

:22:59.:23:03.

audible member from Anfield South as to if there is a balance between

:23:04.:23:09.

Londoners who want access to housing and Londoners who want reasonable

:23:10.:23:14.

fares. The answer is everybody is losing out in this scheme and the

:23:15.:23:17.

cover has been blown on this bill whether revelation that mondy is

:23:18.:23:22.

going to suck out of London and that TFL is going to have to scr`bble

:23:23.:23:25.

around selling the family shlver deadly in order to pay the fare

:23:26.:23:31.

spill over the next year or so and that is a disgraceful way to run

:23:32.:23:36.

it. In summary that is my objection to this bill. It seems to md that we

:23:37.:23:41.

need to call out the true intentions of this bill and I am afraid the

:23:42.:23:46.

border as I am of TFL that there have been things which I have

:23:47.:23:51.

written to the Director of TFL about and he stood for, there are other

:23:52.:23:55.

things I have been advised they does seem to me they're making a mistake

:23:56.:23:58.

about this I suspect that the reason they are trying to terrible mistake

:23:59.:24:04.

is because they have been ptshed by the government who are lookhng at

:24:05.:24:08.

entirely short-term gains and it is not in the interest of Londoners and

:24:09.:24:12.

therefore this bill should not be revived. Can I congratulate the

:24:13.:24:20.

honourable gentleman from H`rrow East who has been in a assiduous

:24:21.:24:23.

campaign for this bill and lade some very important point in seeking its

:24:24.:24:26.

revival on the floor of the House today. Hopefully I can conthnue to

:24:27.:24:34.

do so. I have to say we havd meandered in a staggered around a

:24:35.:24:38.

very circuitous path and taking about this bill. We have talked

:24:39.:24:42.

about my fears, Moldova, we have talked about the city of York was

:24:43.:24:46.

last time I looked with a lhttle way from the city of London and we have

:24:47.:24:50.

staggered around in special purpose vehicle for some reason the image of

:24:51.:24:53.

a white van is flashing before my eyes. Let me perhaps and also what I

:24:54.:25:00.

have noticed is a revival on the opposite benches of interest in

:25:01.:25:04.

transport matters. There ard many members opposite who are frdquent

:25:05.:25:08.

and assiduous campaigners on behalf of constituents in London and there

:25:09.:25:11.

are those I have never heard nor seen in my time as the Minister

:25:12.:25:16.

Iodide transport questions or any correspondence coming across my

:25:17.:25:19.

desk. I am delighted that wd are having a revival of interest in

:25:20.:25:23.

matters of transport this evening. If I can just take us back to

:25:24.:25:28.

reality rather than the meandering world we have been on. What this

:25:29.:25:33.

bill simply seeks to do is to enable TFL to expand their financi`l

:25:34.:25:39.

freedoms to use practices and mechanisms which allow them to

:25:40.:25:42.

release greater value from their financing arrangement. It is not

:25:43.:25:48.

some back door attempt to allow Russian Matthew and to finance

:25:49.:25:50.

Londoners their are special,purpose vehicles. It is a runcible...

:25:51.:25:57.

I am very grateful for giving way, but she says it is not a act

:25:58.:26:02.

ordeal. How does she know that? How can she guarantee there is not

:26:03.:26:05.

somebody going to be coming along who is going to exploit this

:26:06.:26:08.

arrangement and because of the lack of transparency, we are nevdr going

:26:09.:26:12.

to know who they are? Explahns, as I think many of the members opposite

:26:13.:26:18.

do, a complete disregard for the role of the scrutiny played by the

:26:19.:26:23.

London assembly members. And indeed the independent investment programme

:26:24.:26:28.

advisory group, who provided independent insurance and expert

:26:29.:26:31.

advice. Concerning TFL's investment programme. It is a blatant disregard

:26:32.:26:36.

of the law authority we havd given to be mayor, let me make sole

:26:37.:26:40.

progress please, and I think Frank which it does not sound of very

:26:41.:26:46.

strong note of confidence in their candidate for the mayoral elections

:26:47.:26:49.

next year. So this principld of allowing flexibility to comd into

:26:50.:26:54.

the public finances at a tile when the government is seeking ndw

:26:55.:26:59.

mechanisms to unlock the maximum value from public assets, is one

:27:00.:27:04.

that I absolutely welcome. Hs out, finally, we built many of the

:27:05.:27:08.

projects which we all celebrate in the past. Including many of the

:27:09.:27:12.

railways, which we all know and love right across the country. And it a

:27:13.:27:16.

mechanism that has been used to great effect in many other parts of

:27:17.:27:20.

government. It is no secret among Madam Deputy Speaker, that the

:27:21.:27:23.

outcome of the 20 15th pendhng review is going to be challdnging.

:27:24.:27:27.

It is right that we look for ways to Outlook value any public outs this

:27:28.:27:35.

-- public assets... To reduce TFL's operation funding overtime. You

:27:36.:27:41.

would think that this was on his knees organisation. TFL is ` world

:27:42.:27:46.

leader in providing public transport systems. And one of the most

:27:47.:27:52.

congested cities. It is an organisation that manages extremely

:27:53.:27:55.

effectively more than ?9 billion of revenue every year, has delhver

:27:56.:28:00.

incredible increases of relhability and efficiency since 2008. @gain, I

:28:01.:28:04.

think it is a great lack of confidence that we are hearhng in

:28:05.:28:08.

our nation's transport systdms that is being displayed by the p`rty

:28:09.:28:11.

opposite. It is clear, I will give way... LAUGHTER

:28:12.:28:20.

That is at fault, we all have our cross to bear. Those of us who put

:28:21.:28:27.

up with the years of incompdtence, financial and operational, would beg

:28:28.:28:31.

to differ. Was to confirm the report in the financial Times on the London

:28:32.:28:38.

transport was facing the loss of ?700 million a year in statd

:28:39.:28:45.

subsidy? We will have to waht until next week to hear about the spending

:28:46.:28:49.

review. I think that was sole comment about us not eating cheese,

:28:50.:28:56.

I -- using to. However if I could go back to the point is that wd are

:28:57.:29:01.

seeking to find flexible waxs to allow, no I won't give way, flexible

:29:02.:29:05.

ways to allow the public sector to use it assets more effectivdly. Only

:29:06.:29:13.

a party who faces are turned to be passed, preferably be nationalised

:29:14.:29:17.

past of the 1970s, would find that an unpalatable mechanism. I will not

:29:18.:29:20.

give way. TFL have already implemented a savings and efficiency

:29:21.:29:23.

programme which would've en`bled them to invest in infrastructure

:29:24.:29:30.

whilst holding down fares. Ladam Deputy Speaker, I did not hdar

:29:31.:29:32.

anybody on that side of the House standing up for their consthtuents

:29:33.:29:35.

would have to get on the tube every morning who are delighted that fares

:29:36.:29:38.

have been kept down. I will not give way. Who are delighted that fares

:29:39.:29:44.

have been not charged for children who are travelling and who have been

:29:45.:29:47.

delighted by the improvements to state it is including free `ccess

:29:48.:29:53.

right across the network th`t have been implemented. TFL the nded to

:29:54.:29:59.

identify further savings. I understand that this... Mad`m Deputy

:30:00.:30:07.

Speaker, I am very much enjoying the honourable Lady's performance and I

:30:08.:30:10.

hope it will continue for at least the honourable Lady's performance

:30:11.:30:12.

and I hope it will continue for at least another 20 minutes. Btt it is

:30:13.:30:15.

not -- is it not part of thd position of this house... As the

:30:16.:30:24.

honourable gentleman knows, that is not a point of order. It is entirely

:30:25.:30:28.

up to the person who has thd floor to take interventions. We h`d also

:30:29.:30:37.

is a rather pointless interventions earlier. What we will like to do is

:30:38.:30:40.

make some progress so we cotld understand what this bill is all

:30:41.:30:44.

about. So let me put some ntmbers in front of the members opposite to

:30:45.:30:48.

give them some fax rather than some weighting. I understand is that it

:30:49.:30:56.

immediately generate savings by improving their hedging powdr and

:30:57.:31:00.

enabling them to borrow mondy in a cost-effective way him and dnabling

:31:01.:31:02.

them to make the most of thdir assets. If any embers of thd

:31:03.:31:06.

opposite do ever take the ttbe, they would see the money generatdd is

:31:07.:31:10.

really vested in the investdd programmes, delivering the sort of

:31:11.:31:13.

charitable investments their constituents needs. The dep`rtment

:31:14.:31:17.

supports TFL's commercial programme, we want TFL to better maximhse their

:31:18.:31:22.

unique commercial position. We wanted to generate the maxilum

:31:23.:31:27.

potential from the public assets that they will continue to `ll. We

:31:28.:31:31.

believe, I have given away wants, we believe that giving TFL gre`ter

:31:32.:31:36.

flexibility, I'll do tempt le so I can make some more jokes,... The

:31:37.:31:45.

honourable Lady would agree. I do think the Minister for giving

:31:46.:31:50.

weight. Was he except that often transfer providers are not the best

:31:51.:31:54.

organisations to launch into a business programme, particularly

:31:55.:32:02.

where we have such examples... Where really that having got the best

:32:03.:32:06.

value for money, having got the best value for business, there h`s been

:32:07.:32:09.

virtually no affordable housing in there which is the key concdrn.

:32:10.:32:14.

Therefore that proves that Jasper providers are not necessarily the

:32:15.:32:17.

best property developers. I am confused, I think what she hs

:32:18.:32:21.

suggesting is that we shouldn't give TFL these powers. Somehow wd should

:32:22.:32:25.

retain these powers or do not give them powers at all to try and

:32:26.:32:29.

maximise their commercial v`lue I would agree with her. Most state

:32:30.:32:32.

owned institutions are not the domestic rising -- state all

:32:33.:32:37.

institutions are not good at maximizing... But we have to look at

:32:38.:32:42.

it for it mechanisms to enable organisations to unlock the value

:32:43.:32:44.

from their public, private partnership which is so crucial TFL

:32:45.:32:50.

does one a world-class transport system. It is led by an expdrt

:32:51.:32:58.

transport Commissioner. I al very grateful to be honourable L`dy. She

:32:59.:33:02.

has talked about TFL running a world-class transport systel. There

:33:03.:33:06.

are concerns that some other changes have been made. For example, the

:33:07.:33:10.

culture of ticket offices. Women from my constituency are very

:33:11.:33:14.

concerned about safety on the mind as a result of the closure. And

:33:15.:33:21.

children are unable -- unable to get the tickets because the ticket

:33:22.:33:25.

offices are closed and they are not able to get it through the lachines.

:33:26.:33:29.

I don't own the last time the honourable Lady took the two, but

:33:30.:33:34.

there is such thing as cont`ct lists which means the ticket office is now

:33:35.:33:38.

in many cases not something that is actually required by those taking

:33:39.:33:44.

the tube. If I may gently rdmind the honourable Lady, the 21st Cdntury

:33:45.:33:47.

investments that TFL have m`de are now being looked at by transport

:33:48.:33:52.

systems, right across the board I was Madam Deputy Speaker, the

:33:53.:33:54.

honourable members representing London would realise what wd have in

:33:55.:33:58.

terms of a public transport system with moves more than 4 millhon

:33:59.:34:03.

people and eight AV basis and is the envy of the world... And thd idea

:34:04.:34:10.

that somehow we should be kdeping ticket office is open so th`t

:34:11.:34:15.

people, which in many cases are kept open, by the way the British

:34:16.:34:18.

transport police that the honourable Lady doesn't appear to recognise

:34:19.:34:22.

plays an incredible job in keeping people safe. In fact it was their

:34:23.:34:25.

operation Guardian that has led to a job in reporting of sexual violence

:34:26.:34:30.

on the tube, something I am determined to drive down. If she

:34:31.:34:33.

would ever like to write to me I would be delighted to share that

:34:34.:34:37.

with her. If I can wrap up, Madam Deputy Speaker of the yes, of

:34:38.:34:43.

course. If she saw the evenhng standard on Wednesday of last week

:34:44.:34:51.

which reported a list... Passengers were often queuing for up to an hour

:34:52.:34:54.

in order to get their tickets. So what she is posting this rosy

:34:55.:35:01.

picture of everything being wonderful on transport, Chrhstie

:35:02.:35:03.

reflected the fact that not everybody is able to use thd oyster

:35:04.:35:07.

ticket machines and there is still a need for ticket offices in some

:35:08.:35:11.

cases? I didn't see that report Madam Deputy Speaker. I am `mazed, I

:35:12.:35:17.

don't read the standard every day. I apologise. But I have to sax, if the

:35:18.:35:22.

honourable Lady is saying that there are stations where people are

:35:23.:35:24.

queuing for up to an hour in Central London because they cannot buy an

:35:25.:35:28.

oyster card or use a contactless card, I find it absolutely

:35:29.:35:32.

astonishing. Frankly, I might question the veracity of thd report.

:35:33.:35:37.

May I finish what I am going to say? Then I am going to say? Then

:35:38.:35:42.

speeches. Taking into account that this will deliver real savings and

:35:43.:35:46.

efficiency for accounts and taxpayers and fair pairs, t`king

:35:47.:35:49.

into account that it is allowing what TFL has set up to do, which is

:35:50.:35:53.

to take responsibility for the world's greatest transport system

:35:54.:35:57.

copy and taking into account that we are effectively supporting with this

:35:58.:36:02.

bill, the role of the devolved mayor and also the crucial scrutiny role

:36:03.:36:07.

that the London assembly is playing, I can only think that anyond who

:36:08.:36:14.

investigates this tonight does not believe in devolved account`bility.

:36:15.:36:18.

Does not have confidence in the scrutiny role that the one

:36:19.:36:20.

innocently plays and does not give a stuff about their constituents who

:36:21.:36:25.

will benefit from lower fards and ability to get on the housing up

:36:26.:36:28.

about would be housing development that this bill could develop. Thank

:36:29.:36:44.

you Madam Deputy Speaker. I feel it is really important. I think the

:36:45.:36:46.

Minister recognises that from my accent. LAUGHTER

:36:47.:36:54.

I think it is really import`nt that it is not just London MPs who have

:36:55.:36:58.

got a view on this very serhous issue. I live 300 miles awax, I can

:36:59.:37:12.

smell a rat with this issue. To me, Madam Deputy Speaker, it isn't just

:37:13.:37:20.

about the transport on London. It is actually much more than that. It

:37:21.:37:29.

involves the housing crisis. It involves affordable housing. It

:37:30.:37:35.

involves housing which is rdally unaffordable. And couple th`t with

:37:36.:37:43.

the issue faced by transport for London. It is more of a cashno world

:37:44.:37:53.

of opportunity development we are looking at, rather than a conscious

:37:54.:37:59.

decision by this wonderful public service. To better transport the

:38:00.:38:09.

infrastructure within our grade city. It poses a great thre`t, it

:38:10.:38:18.

really does. Because what it means is that it connects schools, shoots

:38:19.:38:25.

waves of public money, publhc finance to unlimited liabilhty in

:38:26.:38:31.

terms of this deal which is being sold on a post five of the lotion.

:38:32.:38:43.

Is it not the reality of thhs that the transport for London, which the

:38:44.:38:49.

Minister said on more than one occasion, are doing a fantastic

:38:50.:38:54.

job. They are one of the best companies in the world. Probably one

:38:55.:38:58.

of the finest transport systems in the world. Is it not a fact that the

:38:59.:39:06.

government have reduced the operational funding in the 2013

:39:07.:39:16.

spending review by 25%? That puts huge financial burden on thd

:39:17.:39:26.

transport for London. Grateful to my honourable friend for giving way.

:39:27.:39:29.

Will he understand in the lhght of the comment he has just madd, the

:39:30.:39:33.

surprise of some of us who `re Londoners to hear the Minister

:39:34.:39:37.

opposite talking about the benefit of this bill and what will bring in

:39:38.:39:41.

terms of lower fares when p`rt of the context for this bill is the

:39:42.:39:46.

fact that fares from out of London into Central London from a place

:39:47.:39:50.

like Harold into a place like Baker Street or Westminster have risen 60%

:39:51.:39:58.

of the current weight? I fully agree with what my honourable fridnd says.

:39:59.:40:04.

The fares are absolutely outrageous does anybody really agree that if

:40:05.:40:13.

this revival motion, this bhll is passed that it will have an impact

:40:14.:40:23.

on and he fares, whether it be in Central London or in the outskirts

:40:24.:40:32.

of London. Just because I don't live in London doesn't mean we should not

:40:33.:40:35.

have a say because we come from a different part of the country.. Of

:40:36.:40:40.

course. Alone my honourable friend should not feel intimidated because

:40:41.:40:44.

he is not from London. He would be very grateful to come to Harrell and

:40:45.:40:47.

use the Harrell the hills stationed, which is crying out for

:40:48.:40:52.

investment, crying out for ` sort of lift that my honourable fridnd for

:40:53.:41:03.

Islington South has, we don't have any. My constituents have bden

:41:04.:41:06.

waiting for an extremely long time to have that. I don't see this bill

:41:07.:41:10.

delivering that service. I hope I am wrong, but at the moment I don't see

:41:11.:41:14.

it upbeat I hope he might bd persuaded to come not just to

:41:15.:41:17.

Central London where we are now but out to Harrow to see for hilself.

:41:18.:41:23.

The sort of investment that we need. Thanks again for that intervention.

:41:24.:41:26.

Of course I would welcome the opportunity to visit my honourable

:41:27.:41:34.

friend's constituency. Wasp the honourable gentleman is doing a tour

:41:35.:41:37.

of London stations, perhaps he might do a visit to Angel station, which

:41:38.:41:40.

has a longest as bread is in the country. No less. In fact, we have

:41:41.:41:47.

some more recent, a Norwegi`n student who skied down the dscalator

:41:48.:41:52.

and you can see it on YouTube copy when it comes to people tryhng to

:41:53.:41:56.

get there, they are unable to because of the long waits copy think

:41:57.:42:05.

you very much. I have never had so many kind indentations in mx life.

:42:06.:42:07.

LAUGHTER I would've really enjoyed the two

:42:08.:42:12.

visits which have already bden lined up. LAUGHTER

:42:13.:42:16.

I wonder if there is a third. I can possibly come to face with that

:42:17.:42:26.

Because that is obviously ldading to... I might use an opporttnity to

:42:27.:42:34.

Robbie the Minister. There has been a promise for a long time to put in

:42:35.:42:42.

proper ticket barriers as wdll. It is the only station in London which

:42:43.:42:50.

doesn't have proper ticket barriers. If we go through station by station,

:42:51.:42:54.

we will be here a very long time and this bill is rather wider than

:42:55.:42:58.

individual stations so if wd could just do that in mind and move along

:42:59.:43:02.

a little bit. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased that

:43:03.:43:11.

you said that. Of course I will go to be stationed on my visit in the

:43:12.:43:17.

not too big distant future, but the reality is my interpretation of

:43:18.:43:21.

this, listening to what is being said by those experts, the people

:43:22.:43:26.

who believe in the city. Thd members of Parliament who discussed this

:43:27.:43:33.

issue with constituents. It has been said by colleagues that there is a

:43:34.:43:35.

huge underinvestment in the transport system in London. If that

:43:36.:43:44.

isn't any deal. I mentioned the fact that the 25% reduction in

:43:45.:43:47.

operational funding, which was announced in the 2013 spendhng

:43:48.:43:54.

review, this was also combined to basically identify ?16 billhon

:43:55.:44:03.

savings by 2021. That is enormous and it will have huge detrilental,

:44:04.:44:08.

how can we fix the stations with my honourable members for two, my

:44:09.:44:15.

honourable friend referred to if indeed we have not got the

:44:16.:44:21.

finances? If indeed the transport for London having got the fhnances

:44:22.:44:26.

to do it? That is what this bill is actually about. It is being

:44:27.:44:29.

mentioned, Madam Deputy Spe`ker that the spending review next week

:44:30.:44:39.

could mean a further ?700 mhllion reduced from the transport for

:44:40.:44:46.

London budget. That would bd a disaster. It is this world-class

:44:47.:44:54.

city we visit. Many people live here. Now with tourists that come

:44:55.:45:06.

into this meant to have a sxstem which is totally underfunded -- for

:45:07.:45:11.

us to come into this fantastic city. This is not what we want to but try

:45:12.:45:15.

as the best capital city in the world. The history of this, the

:45:16.:45:23.

TFL... Will give the organisation new financial powers. There are

:45:24.:45:29.

parts of the bill which I bdlieve that on this side of the Hotse could

:45:30.:45:35.

actually live with, would of course more debuted and more escutcheon, --

:45:36.:45:45.

more debate and discussion. I would think part of the bailouts vaguely

:45:46.:45:49.

acceptable. But I think the main problem with this bill, the crux of

:45:50.:45:56.

the matter, lies in Clause five of the bill. Thank my honourable friend

:45:57.:46:06.

for giving way. As a fellow non-London MP, which is a shame he

:46:07.:46:13.

is not here, does my honour`ble friend share my concern that the

:46:14.:46:24.

architect of this bill, havhng moved to be position of chairman of

:46:25.:46:29.

Network Rail, but the implications of this bill lost immediately

:46:30.:46:34.

affecting London may well go to affect both his constituencx and

:46:35.:46:40.

mine in the North of England. Of course. I could not have put it any

:46:41.:46:44.

better myself. I fully agred with what my honourable friend jtst

:46:45.:46:52.

alluded to. Again, back to the issue. Is about how pretty

:46:53.:46:59.

developments -- this is abott property developments, which have

:47:00.:47:04.

contained very high levels of affordable housing. I think it is

:47:05.:47:09.

suggesting that potentially, with regard to the likes of the now

:47:10.:47:13.

infamous bills, it has been suggested that potentially nearly

:47:14.:47:18.

10% of that would be afford`ble housing. Of course I will ghve way.

:47:19.:47:27.

Yes indeed. The master plan for the bill shows the construction of 000

:47:28.:47:34.

properties. Of those, there will be no additional social houses, and

:47:35.:47:42.

there will only be 11% I thhnk affordable housing copy affordable

:47:43.:47:50.

however, can mean 80% market sale, which I'm afraid in Central London

:47:51.:47:56.

is unaffordable to anyone at all. That isn't really the point. That is

:47:57.:48:02.

the point which this bill is about. It is about the fact that the

:48:03.:48:07.

transport for London is being totally underfunded. There has been

:48:08.:48:10.

a huge reduction in funding. There has got to be more reductions in the

:48:11.:48:17.

spending review -- there is going to be more reductions. I think the

:48:18.:48:20.

Minister basically let the cat out of the bat just before... She said

:48:21.:48:26.

we are going to have to takd difficult choices. Include, as far

:48:27.:48:31.

as the conservative party is concerned, that means you are going

:48:32.:48:36.

to have more taken away frol you. So just wait on next week and see what

:48:37.:48:40.

that reduction actually will be in the spending review. Think he did

:48:41.:48:49.

and never giving way. We all noticed that the office did not denx that

:48:50.:48:54.

700 million, may with help from TFL. But it is also the casd that

:48:55.:49:02.

any of the developments and one or two are proposed... TFL has no

:49:03.:49:08.

intention of providing any form of housing, it at all. Again, that is

:49:09.:49:18.

extremely concerned. The qudstion might be not being from the area, I

:49:19.:49:23.

am sure that this is the case which has been experienced many thmes and

:49:24.:49:26.

many constituencies in the city itself. I was wondering if `ny of my

:49:27.:49:33.

honourable friend wanted to give any examples and I would be really

:49:34.:49:40.

interested and prepared to listen to past experiences and what wd are

:49:41.:49:46.

likely to see if indeed Clatse five is agreed. Would he accept `s an

:49:47.:49:54.

example the fact that now, `s opposed to the possibilities we

:49:55.:49:56.

might have had under a soci`l housing deal, it now costs `bout

:49:57.:50:04.

?75,000 for a household to root This is not Chelsea, this is

:50:05.:50:09.

Finsbury park, a family, three children to read any privatd rented

:50:10.:50:15.

sector you need and annual sector of ?75,000. Does he think that this is

:50:16.:50:18.

why we have such a desperatd need for affordable homes? DSL h`s found

:50:19.:50:22.

itself to be severely wanting when he came to be scheme and other

:50:23.:50:27.

schemes. Therefore this is why we are so desperate to stay here to be

:50:28.:50:31.

as late this important method. Thank you for that intervention. ?75, 00

:50:32.:50:40.

is a king's ransom too many people. Affordable. ?75,000 isn't affordable

:50:41.:50:50.

in any way, shape or form. H am grateful to be honourable gdntleman.

:50:51.:50:57.

It has been for to the Mayor of London, not pleasant -- Mount

:50:58.:51:03.

Pleasant. It was privatised and used for luxury flats, there are no

:51:04.:51:08.

affordable homes. It is a dhsgrace. The Mayor of London railroaded

:51:09.:51:13.

through in the teeth of United opposition by local people,

:51:14.:51:20.

desperate. Thanks very much for that fine example again. It appe`rs to me

:51:21.:51:27.

as if there is a huge potential here for land development in Central

:51:28.:51:35.

London were property developers smuggled these homes, these luxury

:51:36.:51:41.

homes where once there was public sector properties. Driving those who

:51:42.:51:49.

cannot afford to buy these properties out of the centrd of

:51:50.:51:54.

London. And then this will keep going, believe me. That is what is

:51:55.:52:01.

actually happening within the capital city. I think my honourable

:52:02.:52:05.

friend, the Member for Islington South in Finsbury, mentioned that in

:52:06.:52:13.

her constituency alone, that's 21,000 people on the housing list.

:52:14.:52:20.

How would this in any way shape or form, how would anyone of those

:52:21.:52:26.

among the 21,000 people on the waiting list, hound many chhldren

:52:27.:52:29.

are involved in that? How m`ny people just want a decent property

:52:30.:52:36.

to rent? And many people cannot even afford to rent these properties

:52:37.:52:47.

Never mind, the big public dealers coming in... It was mentiondd before

:52:48.:52:53.

the gangsters, I think that was tongue-in-cheek, but I belidve that

:52:54.:53:01.

we will see international corporations and individuals who

:53:02.:53:06.

have got money to burn, buyhng these properties in the city. Thex will be

:53:07.:53:13.

snapped up in seconds. And that land, which is really meaning to be

:53:14.:53:22.

for use of the public am of the people, the constituents of London,

:53:23.:53:27.

will be lost forever. The exception of my honourable friend, who is no

:53:28.:53:35.

longer in its place. I think I am the only member from Outer London on

:53:36.:53:40.

these midges taking part in this... I dig the honourable member's pardon

:53:41.:53:43.

behind me LAUGHTER ... The point is this, therd is a

:53:44.:53:50.

further concern for those of us from outer London who have an opdn mind

:53:51.:53:55.

about development on TFL sites. I certainly think the site might

:53:56.:54:01.

benefit from some development, but my worry is that if the bill goes

:54:02.:54:05.

through without any further assurances, there actually ht will

:54:06.:54:09.

concentrate transport for London's purely on developing zone one and

:54:10.:54:17.

two sites. And outer London sites, where the investment and access and

:54:18.:54:22.

other forms of investment that are needed in our area may be ddlayed

:54:23.:54:26.

even further because this bhll is seen as they go mind so long as

:54:27.:54:29.

there is a focus on zones one and two. I fully agree with the comments

:54:30.:54:35.

of my honourable friend. Wh`t we will experience, of course, is the

:54:36.:54:43.

gold-diggers coming and buyhng the properties. They have got money to

:54:44.:54:48.

burn. It will not be used at all by them. I am grateful to my honourable

:54:49.:54:54.

friend for giving way. We are talking about outer London LPs.

:54:55.:54:59.

There is no more out of London in the Northeast of Scotland -, and

:55:00.:55:03.

Scotland. It is a matter for everybody. I wonder if my honourable

:55:04.:55:07.

friend agrees with me that this is just indicative of the way which

:55:08.:55:10.

this government has gone. What we have been seeing in this capital

:55:11.:55:14.

city is safety deposit boxes in the sky, with nobody living in them We

:55:15.:55:18.

know those properties could revive proper housing for the population of

:55:19.:55:25.

London, rather than just investment boxes. I don't know whether this

:55:26.:55:28.

history, Madam Deputy Speakdr, but I strongly suspect that if yot were to

:55:29.:55:32.

tip the contractor you might be able to get away with not even pttting

:55:33.:55:36.

proper finishing so properthes, because no one will ever live in

:55:37.:55:39.

them. Thanks very much, I think that is a very point that I will be

:55:40.:55:44.

making from the onset. Will have at the very essence of communities

:55:45.:55:47.

within the capital city and elsewhere throughout the about is

:55:48.:55:54.

building properties, afford`ble properties. ... Is anybody

:55:55.:56:03.

suggesting otherwise, it nedds to be the right balance and that hs

:56:04.:56:06.

different in different areas. But if you get a huge swathe of properties,

:56:07.:56:13.

brought up by property developers and looking across the globd without

:56:14.:56:17.

the finishing on the buildings and sales, then really what are they

:56:18.:56:24.

going to contribute to be local economy? And effect of that is

:56:25.:56:29.

absolutely nothing -- the f`ct of that is, absolutely nothing. Then

:56:30.:56:35.

you will see the development goes down and this wonderful citx. That

:56:36.:56:38.

is something which we have `ll got to

:56:39.:56:42.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the m`in point of contention as I have mentioned is

:56:43.:56:49.

Clause five and that refers to the limited ownerships. If Clause five

:56:50.:56:55.

would give the transport for London a new power which would enable it to

:56:56.:57:00.

enter into limited partnerships with private developers. Not onlx that,

:57:01.:57:08.

it may incur unlimited liabhlity is. This is a huge gamble with public

:57:09.:57:15.

forms. -- public funds. It hs a type of economy which we cannot `fford at

:57:16.:57:20.

a time when generally, the dconomy is not at its best. Not onlx that,

:57:21.:57:28.

there's a potential here, if this bill is passed, that the tr`nsport

:57:29.:57:34.

for London could undertake other wider activities than those that it

:57:35.:57:42.

is actually permitted to take. Am grateful to my honourable friend for

:57:43.:57:46.

giving way. He focused on Clause five rightly and does he agree with

:57:47.:57:50.

me that the reason there is such freedom in the arrangement hn

:57:51.:57:54.

opposition to the returns to be made is self evident. If you havd got to

:57:55.:57:59.

give somebody the maximum possible return they're going to givd it

:58:00.:58:03.

because of the freedoms of that delivers. There is a lack of

:58:04.:58:08.

transparency accountability which is dangerous. Does he agree? I would

:58:09.:58:12.

fully agree with that and I think throughout the bill although there

:58:13.:58:20.

is a very long and it's writing to be fair there is a complete and

:58:21.:58:22.

utter lack of transparency within the bill. But there is a lilited

:58:23.:58:27.

partnership Madam Deputy Spdaker and it differs slightly from lilited

:58:28.:58:33.

liability partnership. It dhffers in a couple of ways. The limitdd

:58:34.:58:37.

partnership is a form of agreement between parties not a distinct legal

:58:38.:58:44.

entity with and clear consepuences for public transparency measures

:58:45.:58:47.

such as the freedom of information act. And the other, one partner the

:58:48.:58:54.

General partner assumes unlhmited risk whereas a secondary or limited

:58:55.:58:59.

partners are only liable for value of any investment they make. The

:59:00.:59:02.

limited partner may not be hnvolved in the management of the

:59:03.:59:08.

partnership. So we should assume that the transport for London would

:59:09.:59:12.

I merrily take the role of ` limited partner. The bill would not event

:59:13.:59:18.

the organisation that is a general partner. Let me assume the role of

:59:19.:59:22.

limited partner transport for London would not be able to and thd

:59:23.:59:26.

agreement without the agreelent of the general partner which h`s been

:59:27.:59:32.

already mentioned before. I thank the honourable member for ghving

:59:33.:59:36.

way. Would he accept that this side of the chamber are much mord

:59:37.:59:40.

generous towards this bill had there been examples where transport for

:59:41.:59:43.

London had achieved what Londoners want which is the 50% affordable on

:59:44.:59:50.

all of these deals. Rather than 10% and indeed if we had genuindly

:59:51.:59:55.

affordable homes, not the ctrrent definition of affordable whhch is

:59:56.:59:59.

80% the market rate because we know that 80% of the market rate in

:00:00.:00:03.

London is completely unaffordable for the average earner who hs on

:00:04.:00:10.

about 28-29 or ?30,000 a ye`r. Again, an excellent intervention

:00:11.:00:14.

explaining exactly how and what a lot of people in the city are

:00:15.:00:24.

experiencing. Can I just underline the area of concern that my

:00:25.:00:27.

honourable friend raised in her intervention because for those who

:00:28.:00:32.

read the proceedings as one or two poor souls will has to do in

:00:33.:00:35.

transport for London, it is important that they take full note

:00:36.:00:40.

of the point about the concdrn not least on these benches, abott the

:00:41.:00:44.

lack of appetite it would appear from Chancellor for London for a

:00:45.:00:51.

genuinely -- transport for London for genuinely affordable hotsing. If

:00:52.:00:53.

they can give us some reasstrance on that point maybe the bill whll have

:00:54.:00:57.

a chance of making some progress, but although common as my honourable

:00:58.:01:06.

friend demonstrated is a huge factor hanging over this bill and ht is

:01:07.:01:10.

responsible for the many concerns that are being heard on these

:01:11.:01:15.

benches. They give for the intervention. I am not really too

:01:16.:01:19.

sure whether or not I would be comfortable with assurances given by

:01:20.:01:23.

the likes of Transport for London on the issue of being split between

:01:24.:01:31.

private and public. My view is that transport for London, and it is in

:01:32.:01:36.

the aim, it should look aftdr the transport system and in London. It

:01:37.:01:43.

should be involving itself with agreeing and updating the transport

:01:44.:01:46.

infrastructure in London. Or have not property development -- perhaps

:01:47.:01:51.

not property development. That would be where I would draw the lhne. I

:01:52.:01:55.

may be completely different to what the people the you. I hear ht he

:01:56.:02:03.

says and I think it is a pohnt well made but may I simply say this, if

:02:04.:02:09.

there is land that can be ddveloped then I for one would not st`nd in

:02:10.:02:13.

the way of that and if we wdre to get a promise from TFL that half of

:02:14.:02:19.

this property would be for social housing and that frankly and in her

:02:20.:02:22.

London is what affordable housing means, then they may well fhnd they

:02:23.:02:26.

have more friends than they think they do. At the moment we are

:02:27.:02:30.

nowhere near that. In fact we are exactly the opposite of that. We are

:02:31.:02:36.

told zones one and two will not have any where near laughingly affordable

:02:37.:02:43.

housing. That just shows th`t the members certainly on this shde of

:02:44.:02:50.

the House are looking at thd potential development of land. As

:02:51.:02:57.

London's assurances given bx Transport for London, as long as

:02:58.:03:04.

they're assurances are guar`nteed in terms of the split of the asset I am

:03:05.:03:09.

not too sure what I would gtess whether I would accept thesd

:03:10.:03:14.

guarantees. I think it is ilportant that other people recognise that

:03:15.:03:18.

these guarantees were given then there is room at the table for much

:03:19.:03:24.

more consultation and discussion. I think the question has to bd posed

:03:25.:03:29.

here, if there is no guarantee from Transport for London, London has a

:03:30.:03:35.

housing crisis, there is no doubt about it. Particularly in the

:03:36.:03:43.

setback which is deemed for affordable housing, Madam Ddputy

:03:44.:03:46.

Speaker. If not Transport for London with it property value, who's going

:03:47.:03:51.

to provide the land for affordable housing in London for the

:03:52.:03:56.

much-needed housing which most people want for the workers of

:03:57.:04:03.

London? That brings up a whole new question which really has not been

:04:04.:04:08.

discussed from anyone from dither side of the House tonight. @ very

:04:09.:04:15.

valid question which needs some answers. I, like a number of

:04:16.:04:25.

colleagues are not very keen to see land released for development as

:04:26.:04:28.

long as that development is fair and balanced -- are very keen. @lthough

:04:29.:04:33.

it does not substitute for said that the cuts in spinning for services.

:04:34.:04:37.

Can my honourable friend agree with me that a number of people `re very

:04:38.:04:40.

jaundiced by the experience of what happened with the police st`tions by

:04:41.:04:44.

the Mayor of London, two of which were in my constituency which were

:04:45.:04:52.

sold off and have not been lade into affordable housing but neither have

:04:53.:04:54.

they led to an investment and front line policing which was we ,- we

:04:55.:04:59.

were told with a guaranteed result of this property sale. We are very

:05:00.:05:02.

jaundiced that the experience with Transport for London is not went to

:05:03.:05:07.

be very different. People are fairly thick of austerity. Absolutdly sick

:05:08.:05:13.

to death of austerity. Excuses given by the government on closing fire

:05:14.:05:20.

stations, closing public buhldings, closing public police stations and

:05:21.:05:24.

thinking that will get a better service from the public person which

:05:25.:05:28.

indeed in every occasion is quite the opposite. That is why wd need to

:05:29.:05:34.

ensure that this discussion on this very issue and if the peopld who are

:05:35.:05:41.

involved, not just politici`ns, not just Transport for London, not just

:05:42.:05:43.

the developers, everybody understands what would and what is

:05:44.:05:48.

likely to happen if this bill is passed. What has been, Madal Deputy

:05:49.:05:54.

Speaker, many arguments with regard to this issue. And has been digested

:05:55.:06:04.

that TFL should not have anx more power to enter into these

:06:05.:06:09.

partnerships until he can prove better housing ability to m`nage

:06:10.:06:13.

them properly. I think that is fair. Isn't it fair to say to an

:06:14.:06:17.

organisation, a first class organisation as a minister, isn t it

:06:18.:06:22.

fair to say that how can an organisation who is founded to look

:06:23.:06:28.

after the transport infrastructure should be allowed to enter hnto

:06:29.:06:31.

property development without proper accountability? It is fair. It is

:06:32.:06:38.

reasonable to ask that question The bill gives more power to thd

:06:39.:06:43.

Transport for London and spdculative developments on the sites that it

:06:44.:06:47.

earns. The issue with regards to what we discussed about the

:06:48.:06:53.

potential split that price hs affordable on affordable, that needs

:06:54.:06:59.

to reflect what the people hn the city actually need. Whether the

:07:00.:07:06.

argument whether TFL should be getting involved in these lhmited

:07:07.:07:12.

partnerships is being an issue as well. Whether they are compdtent in

:07:13.:07:17.

terms of financial ability to.. These people who TFL will bdginning

:07:18.:07:24.

into bed with under Clause five Bees will be people who delhver

:07:25.:07:31.

development projects, not jtst in this country but in prayer `cross

:07:32.:07:37.

the globe and they will be shrewd companies. We want to make sure that

:07:38.:07:39.

whatever happens, the peopld of London get the best deal. Hd's

:07:40.:07:47.

absolutely right to say that we need to be very suspicious of thdse

:07:48.:07:51.

partners. He said he thought it might be a slight exaggerathon to

:07:52.:07:54.

say that we are dealing not just with evil who take commerci`l

:07:55.:08:01.

advantage but... Not so in relation to court development TFL's `rdor

:08:02.:08:06.

capital for another part of the site went into partnership with the Cox

:08:07.:08:09.

brothers, one of whom is currently serving five-year sentence or

:08:10.:08:15.

corruption in Hong Kong. If these are the types of people who will be

:08:16.:08:19.

involved in the deals we should rightly have nothing to do with them

:08:20.:08:24.

at all. I think it is wise counsel to scrutinize the qualifications of

:08:25.:08:37.

the people involved with TFL. As I said before, to my honourable

:08:38.:08:42.

friend, somebody mentioned gangsters, or have gangsters are

:08:43.:08:45.

being involved in this sort of issue if somebody, and I am sure there is

:08:46.:08:52.

more than one person, as a prison sentence of more than five xears who

:08:53.:08:55.

knows what has been happening behind the scenes and who knows wh`t is

:08:56.:08:59.

likely to happen if indeed this bill gets passed. I always enjoy the

:09:00.:09:06.

honourable gentleman's beaches but I wanted to reassure him on a couple

:09:07.:09:11.

of points. The first is for TFL to participate in one of the lhmited

:09:12.:09:14.

partnership the Secretary of State's consent must be sought and

:09:15.:09:17.

done through an affirmative or seizure. Secondly before thd House

:09:18.:09:22.

get carried away in vilifying limited partnerships I want to point

:09:23.:09:26.

out the electoral commission suggest that since 2010 the gentlem`n's own

:09:27.:09:33.

party has accepted donations of ?3.1 million from limited companhes and

:09:34.:09:37.

limited liability partnershhps, about 5% of the Labour Partx's

:09:38.:09:42.

donation. Let's not get carried away and vilifying a corporate structure

:09:43.:09:45.

that is used perfectly legitimately right across the country indeed to

:09:46.:09:51.

raise funds for the party opposite and with the honourable gentleman

:09:52.:09:53.

accept reassurances that thd secretary of state has to shgn off

:09:54.:09:56.

on any of these deals were partnership that are put together?

:09:57.:10:01.

Think you for that intervention Two points on that. I'm not are deciding

:10:02.:10:10.

limited partnerships, I'm criticising the potential for bad

:10:11.:10:14.

limited partnership. Is in the best interest of the people in the

:10:15.:10:18.

capital city or the transport of London to be come part of the

:10:19.:10:23.

limited partnership. That is the question. The honourable lady

:10:24.:10:30.

mentioned the donations the Labour Party received from the limhted

:10:31.:10:36.

partnerships. I wish I had done the homework and saying exactly how the

:10:37.:10:40.

limited partnership and othdr businesses and probably devdlopers

:10:41.:10:45.

-- property developers rathdr than the limited partnership. Ard pretty

:10:46.:10:50.

developers have actually donated. I am grateful to my honourabld friend

:10:51.:10:54.

for giving way. Isn't it also a concern about the stamp dutx

:10:55.:10:59.

arrangements made on these potential transfers down the track he cut as I

:11:00.:11:04.

understand it, if these are transferred, the Limited li`bility

:11:05.:11:11.

partnerships Boulby and exelption. Does he share my concern th`t we

:11:12.:11:15.

should be hearing from the Linister to help with the babies out after

:11:16.:11:18.

the assessment made as to hdlp with the babies out after the assessment

:11:19.:11:23.

made after to get on this ddal? I am sure that the Minister will have

:11:24.:11:28.

heard exactly what you menthoned with regards to stamp duty `nd will

:11:29.:11:35.

respond accordingly within the contributions. Again I would like to

:11:36.:11:39.

put some facts out. I cannot answer on the stamp duty point but if I

:11:40.:11:43.

could just gently point out that the sector that has donated the most to

:11:44.:11:47.

the Labour Party since 2010, the second month after the tradd unions,

:11:48.:11:51.

is indeed the property set Dric with 2.1 million raised for individual

:11:52.:11:56.

companies involved in those businesses. If I might encotrage

:11:57.:12:02.

members opposite to stop de`r mongering and to consider the

:12:03.:12:06.

benefits of the sort of likd stability bringing to their

:12:07.:12:10.

constituents we might make some progress -- dear mongering `nd we

:12:11.:12:14.

might get this bill sorted. And not sure if that was an intervention. I

:12:15.:12:22.

think the honourable member for giving way. Could we perhaps get

:12:23.:12:26.

back to the point which is ht is not the private sector per se btt the

:12:27.:12:29.

track record. Hijab record hs on a large investment 10% afford`ble

:12:30.:12:35.

homes is not acceptable. In the case of other services like the fire

:12:36.:12:39.

station because the Mayor of London was keen to Steve posh flats and set

:12:40.:12:44.

of services in the cave of Lanuel Hill police station closed `nd sold

:12:45.:12:52.

for half a dozen posh flats and mod low health. It is the continual

:12:53.:12:57.

sense that we are being ripped off. It is a bad deal and that transport

:12:58.:13:01.

providers are not necessarily the best people to be running property

:13:02.:13:05.

developments. I think that point was made by my honourable friend

:13:06.:13:11.

mentioned that the ordinary people in London adjourned us by the dashed

:13:12.:13:15.

honest by the experiences they have had before whether it be a police

:13:16.:13:21.

station or a fire station and the fact that you have the luxury flats

:13:22.:13:25.

you have people who do not live in them and there you have people who

:13:26.:13:28.

do not live in him and Mary have ghost towns and nobody living there

:13:29.:13:32.

and that means it is a downward spiral on the local economids in

:13:33.:13:34.

which they live. Only peopld that have made anything from it will be

:13:35.:13:42.

the property developers and sales. The honourable gentleman is making

:13:43.:13:43.

the property developers and sales. commuters are being followed out.

:13:44.:13:49.

The fact is we do not object insensible to people coming from all

:13:50.:13:52.

over the world to live in London. People always have, so long as they

:13:53.:13:56.

live here. But it is buying properties and deleting thel empty

:13:57.:14:01.

which is the problem. That hs the point. London is a fantastic

:14:02.:14:06.

multicultural communities. Ht is fantastic. We welcome peopld from

:14:07.:14:11.

all corners of the globe. Wd welcome them coming into spending their

:14:12.:14:16.

money, of course we do, but what is unacceptable is what could we faced

:14:17.:14:20.

by the people of London if hndeed this bill goes through. As property

:14:21.:14:24.

developers coming and snapphng up the land, giving the money to

:14:25.:14:27.

transport for London which they should have had in the first place

:14:28.:14:30.

if they had not had these htge cuts and more cuts to come. That is the

:14:31.:14:38.

real issue. Madam Deputy Spdaker I just want to conclude by saxing that

:14:39.:14:47.

I think... My honourable frhend and I have dwelt on the experience of

:14:48.:14:53.

this. One would have thought TFL would have learned from the

:14:54.:14:59.

experience and sought to re`ssure members of the House about hts

:15:00.:15:02.

commitment to building affordable housing in the future. In actual

:15:03.:15:08.

fact, it has created an advhsory board to drive its property

:15:09.:15:13.

development and there was no one on the advisory board with expdrience

:15:14.:15:19.

of building developing and owning... Order! There are several

:15:20.:15:26.

members who still wish to speak The honourable Donovan knows th`t with

:15:27.:15:30.

too long for an intervention. Is seeking to catch my eye if he makes

:15:31.:15:33.

a very long intervention. Hhs chances of catching my eye `re going

:15:34.:15:42.

down considerably. Thank yot Madam Deputy Speaker. I fully agrde with

:15:43.:15:45.

my honourable friend. I wonder if you could repeat... LAUGHTER

:15:46.:15:53.

Sorry that is taking liberthes Madam Deputy Speaker. In conclusion, it is

:15:54.:16:01.

widely accepted by many of the British public that transport for

:16:02.:16:06.

London needs to be saved from itself. It is facing challenges

:16:07.:16:16.

financial challenges which we all know would be quite different.

:16:17.:16:23.

Transport for London is being saved from itself by the process

:16:24.:16:27.

excruciating this. He the Mhnister has become very careless now that

:16:28.:16:31.

she does not have to take interventions but the only reason

:16:32.:16:35.

the Secretary of State consdnted need on-call site is becausd that

:16:36.:16:38.

was convention got an committee in this place. Order! Is the honourable

:16:39.:16:54.

gentleman questioning something No. I do not think so. LAUGHTER

:16:55.:17:01.

Thank you very much Madam Ddputy Speaker. I fully agree with my oral

:17:02.:17:08.

friend. My honourable friend. Moving on to conclude, we cannot afford in

:17:09.:17:14.

this great city to have TFL be inspected is in gambling on the

:17:15.:17:20.

property market which will only benefit people who will havd got the

:17:21.:17:27.

money in which to buy these hugely luxury is properties. -- luxurious

:17:28.:17:34.

properties. Is simple to sax that TFL need... Not the -- propdr funds,

:17:35.:17:46.

not cuts, not the 700 million which the Minister will save from the

:17:47.:17:49.

dispatch box that it is incorrect that there would be further

:17:50.:17:57.

reductions in funding to TFL and it will be interesting to see hf that

:17:58.:18:02.

happens. Madam Deputy Speakdr, we need to look after the people we

:18:03.:18:07.

represent. And we I firmly believe in the party on this side, believe

:18:08.:18:12.

clearly that this is a dangdrous bill and it should be paused for the

:18:13.:18:21.

simple reason that this is not about enhancing the lives of people in

:18:22.:18:25.

London or people who use thd capital city. It is not about enhancing the

:18:26.:18:30.

transport infrastructure whdther it be the tubes, the trains were the

:18:31.:18:36.

voters. Is about underfunding of a great service and putting strains

:18:37.:18:41.

and pressures on the transport of London to look elsewhere to try and

:18:42.:18:46.

raise finances to just keep its head above water. Thank you Madal Deputy

:18:47.:18:54.

Speaker. I am really grateftl to be able to make contribution in this. I

:18:55.:18:59.

am not from the city of London, in fact I am from the city of Xork but

:19:00.:19:04.

there are many of concern I have within this bill which many my

:19:05.:19:07.

friends have touched on this evening. Going to the heart of the

:19:08.:19:14.

motion, talk about reviving this motion. This bill started its

:19:15.:19:18.

journey five years ago and H think as we have heard in the deb`te

:19:19.:19:23.

tonight, the situation withhn London has changed so much in houshng that

:19:24.:19:28.

actually this bill seriouslx needs such amendment that there is no

:19:29.:19:35.

longer... It left the House of Lords 20 months ago and therefore it has

:19:36.:19:42.

had to give opportunity to be debated but I think we have heard

:19:43.:19:46.

tonight the situation and circumstances in London and

:19:47.:19:48.

London's housing situation has changed considerably now th`t it

:19:49.:19:53.

really does put this bill into question. I with the Jets wd need a

:19:54.:19:57.

new bill to address the real issues facing today rather than a bill

:19:58.:20:02.

which is quite clearly outd`ted talking about a property market

:20:03.:20:05.

largely that they do not exhst five years ago. I will give way to my

:20:06.:20:10.

honourable friend. Is she aware that just in the last five years the

:20:11.:20:16.

bullies of Haringey which includes Taubman is now considered to be a

:20:17.:20:21.

higher without you area and where homes are for sale for in excess of

:20:22.:20:25.

500,000 pounds and that first-time buyers are unable to even gdt on the

:20:26.:20:29.

housing matter and that indded the government's flagship team to

:20:30.:20:32.

incentivize people to get into a mortgage situation, one person has

:20:33.:20:40.

benefited from... I am not having any more long intervention `nd copy

:20:41.:20:44.

there have been far too manx. I thank my honourable friend because I

:20:45.:20:50.

do just the points he was m`king in her intervention there that house

:20:51.:20:56.

pricing has really escalated beyond control since the origins of this

:20:57.:20:59.

bill. Since this bill is put together and therefore the reality

:21:00.:21:02.

is that we are dealing with a different situation and a dhfferent

:21:03.:21:05.

world than what was intended when the bill was put together and

:21:06.:21:09.

therefore I believe that today is not the date to agree to Rosita with

:21:10.:21:14.

this motion but actually to call it to halt and to get back to the

:21:15.:21:17.

drawing board for real problems that we have heard so much of today's.

:21:18.:21:25.

But what I want to do is totch on some of those issues, perhaps some

:21:26.:21:28.

which have not been addressdd today about the consequences of this bill

:21:29.:21:33.

because the reality is that there will be so many unintended

:21:34.:21:37.

consequences. In fact I havd asked some questions earlier which were

:21:38.:21:39.

not answered about the financial modelling and the financial risk

:21:40.:21:44.

that could arise as we are... I am happy to give way. It is not just

:21:45.:21:51.

about consequences, it is also about responsibility. Transport for

:21:52.:21:56.

London, in the conduct of London, particularly when it has once added

:21:57.:22:01.

disposal has a social the spots ability to make sure that the land

:22:02.:22:04.

which is added this puzzle can be used to help -- at its disposal can

:22:05.:22:10.

be used to rebalance the market and give Londoners a chance to live in

:22:11.:22:14.

London. My honourable friend is absolutely right. The responsibility

:22:15.:22:20.

has to be at the core, not just of this bill but at the core of

:22:21.:22:24.

government and therefore I have the same concerns as my honourable

:22:25.:22:29.

friend. Therefore, this is ` bill which is full of risk, we h`ve heard

:22:30.:22:34.

many of those risk today. I am happy to give way. My honourable friend

:22:35.:22:38.

rightly the dewdrops attenthon to the consequent as of this bhll is.

:22:39.:22:43.

-- draw attention to the unhntended consequences. Dabbur TFL's `ttention

:22:44.:22:47.

in terms of property development into zones one and two. Misty beat

:22:48.:22:52.

tended to come out to Harrow on the Hill to understand that point even

:22:53.:22:59.

more acutely? LAUGHTER I am very grateful to my honourable

:23:00.:23:03.

friend for the invitation to Harrow on the Hill patient. I am stre I

:23:04.:23:07.

will join many of my horrible friends across the South as we go

:23:08.:23:10.

around the tube stations of London to examine some of the works that

:23:11.:23:16.

really aren't waiting to be completed copy thank you very much

:23:17.:23:21.

for your invitation there. One of the things you do raise is that

:23:22.:23:26.

Transport for London alreadx means to have a sharper focus on hts work

:23:27.:23:33.

in improving our railway network, improving the stations, makhng sure

:23:34.:23:37.

stations are accessible to disabled people. Why should a disabldd person

:23:38.:23:41.

has to wait in order to accdss transport? Surely that should be a

:23:42.:23:46.

priority of this government. But the reality is that there are so many

:23:47.:23:48.

questions which are not answered in this bill. One of the things we have

:23:49.:23:54.

heard a lot about is obviously the price of housing and the

:23:55.:23:59.

consequences of that. The f`ct that we're not talking about housing for

:24:00.:24:01.

people to in which will be developed. It will be assets which

:24:02.:24:07.

are built for people to makd further money on at the expense of others.

:24:08.:24:11.

Of courts as their assets btild the inequality grows further and further

:24:12.:24:17.

in our city but it is not jtst and inequality which impacts on people

:24:18.:24:24.

who are at the top end, but it does impact on others. If we look at what

:24:25.:24:28.

of the real consequences of any quality, we see a skilled shortage

:24:29.:24:34.

which addresses some of the serious Guild shortages in the city. If we

:24:35.:24:39.

think about the impact that it - serious Guild shortage of. Hf we

:24:40.:24:42.

pick about the impact it has on regarding people to the NHS who

:24:43.:24:45.

cannot afford to live in central London, a situation the honourable

:24:46.:24:49.

member is gesturing over on the other side but the reality hs that

:24:50.:24:52.

it will be constituent of some of the members opposite will h`ve a

:24:53.:24:58.

loss of consequences, a restlt of not enough nurses in the hospital.

:24:59.:25:03.

In fact the government is concerned about agency workers and our

:25:04.:25:06.

hospital. Are we surprised when trained staff cannot even work in

:25:07.:25:10.

our NHS because they cannot a board to live better? That afford to live

:25:11.:25:15.

there. That at some of the consequences of not develophng land

:25:16.:25:19.

as though answering it has build social value to input back hnto our

:25:20.:25:23.

services. Workers working for transport for London ironic`lly will

:25:24.:25:35.

not be able to afford to work.. Very brief Madam Deputy Spe`ker Is

:25:36.:25:42.

my honourable friend aware that it is now even unaffordable in the

:25:43.:25:47.

worker category for key workers to gain access to that housing because

:25:48.:25:51.

that keyword or category I shot up so high in relation to the larket?

:25:52.:25:57.

My honourable friend makes ` very reasoned point there becausd we have

:25:58.:26:01.

got a situation which is developing where the centre of London now is

:26:02.:26:06.

being void of absolute key workers, teachers who teach in our school,

:26:07.:26:10.

people working in hospitals and people who worked in our rahlway

:26:11.:26:14.

system and therefore they themselves are going to suffer the consequent.

:26:15.:26:18.

In fact, construction workers will be asked to work on this site will

:26:19.:26:23.

not be able to live in central London and access those services. I

:26:24.:26:28.

would put the question back as I did at the start of this debate about

:26:29.:26:31.

the financial modelling that has been put behind this bill. Clearly a

:26:32.:26:39.

lot of risk thought about -, brought about but the one thing that did

:26:40.:26:45.

alert me to concern was a point made by my honourable friend the Member

:26:46.:26:48.

for Lancaster and we would when she talked about the new chair Network

:26:49.:26:56.

Rail who have come from Transport for London. Network Rail in itself

:26:57.:27:02.

having a major footprint in my constituency and the realitx is that

:27:03.:27:08.

once principle is introduced, we could well see this limited

:27:09.:27:12.

partnership extent to a whole host of other areas. If I look at Sir

:27:13.:27:17.

Peter Hendy who is now transferred across you could transfer across his

:27:18.:27:22.

principal as well. I have two decide in my constituency of revivd hectors

:27:23.:27:28.

of Network Rail, Brownfield site, land where we could see 1100 houses

:27:29.:27:35.

built on. But if those housds would be high asset houses if this could

:27:36.:27:41.

get through copy the Ministdr asked how do I know? How do I not know?

:27:42.:27:45.

That is the job of this opposition. To scrutinize the government over

:27:46.:27:49.

the provision. I will not ghve way on that. I have heard her point from

:27:50.:27:58.

a sedentary position, and what is absolutely clear is that thdre is

:27:59.:28:03.

potential risk that is built out of this draft bill. Therefore we have

:28:04.:28:08.

heard about financial risk, housing risk, skills risk and therefore as a

:28:09.:28:15.

result of that and a changing world we are and I have to say th`t we

:28:16.:28:20.

have got serious questions over what this limited partnerships whll

:28:21.:28:26.

actually bring. Therefore, today I think we have heard so many

:28:27.:28:30.

contributions and that is why it is a concern to members on the side is

:28:31.:28:33.

that we are actually seeing a real social remodeling of the city of

:28:34.:28:39.

London. We are seeing housing which is now inaccessible being btilt in

:28:40.:28:45.

the heart of our city whethdr it is zoned one and two or further afield

:28:46.:28:50.

which actually means that pdople cannot live in the city where they

:28:51.:28:51.

need to work. the honourable lady made an

:28:52.:28:56.

important point up with a very different anhmal than

:28:57.:30:20.

what we believe he started with I will give way. What happens then is

:30:21.:30:28.

to have 100% market housing development in zones one and two.

:30:29.:30:33.

What is more, the only guard against that would be labour councils

:30:34.:30:39.

presently insisting on forw`rd housing will be removed by

:30:40.:30:42.

provisions of the housing. This is the dirty little deal betwedn the

:30:43.:30:46.

government and TFL to ensurd there is no affordable housing. Ordered.

:30:47.:30:55.

Talking about housing tangentially to this bill because it has an

:30:56.:30:59.

effect on property and the `wning of land is in order. Having a debate

:31:00.:31:04.

that is almost entirely abott housing and provision of social

:31:05.:31:06.

housing is not in order when discussing this bill. Hear, hear!

:31:07.:31:14.

I thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. But I do take on board very much the

:31:15.:31:18.

point that my honourable frhend has said. LAUGHTER

:31:19.:31:21.

Therefore, there are real qtestions that are left hovering over this

:31:22.:31:26.

bill. When it comes, it is not just about housing, that bill yot

:31:27.:31:32.

referred to. It is about hotsing and planning and obviously that is about

:31:33.:31:35.

the use of land. That is thd issue which really does concern us on this

:31:36.:31:40.

side. What the use of that land is for. Lost we have highlightdd very

:31:41.:31:45.

clearly the use of land and what kind of housing is built upon that

:31:46.:31:49.

land, clearly there was concern about the infrastructure around that

:31:50.:31:52.

and other possibilities on dven the use for putting business and other

:31:53.:31:57.

modelling on that land in the future. It doesn't say that this is

:31:58.:32:03.

just for asserting housing, it doesn't actually list the scope of

:32:04.:32:06.

what the property in the development will be there for any futurd. Under

:32:07.:32:15.

limited partnerships model being shown in this bill. I would like to

:32:16.:32:18.

turn back to my initial point before I those. That is about this bill and

:32:19.:32:25.

the ageing of this bill. I think we have seen very clearly that the

:32:26.:32:28.

world has changed so much shnce this was first drafted. Thereford the

:32:29.:32:36.

relevance of this bill on the economy that has been built, we ve

:32:37.:32:40.

heard very much about the structure of our economy today, the dhrect and

:32:41.:32:44.

it is going, well Madam Deptty Speaker I think this bill whll build

:32:45.:32:47.

more of an asset based economy, one which is a social based economy --

:32:48.:32:51.

then one which is a social based economy. And where there is a

:32:52.:33:00.

need... Order! We are not dhscussing economic academic issues. Wd are

:33:01.:33:08.

discussing transport. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is more than just

:33:09.:33:13.

about transport. That is whx it is a rail concern to us. Because the

:33:14.:33:18.

reality of this bill is that it is about and organisation which is put

:33:19.:33:24.

in charge of running our tr`nsport, expanding its business opportunities

:33:25.:33:26.

into other areas, which is largely about property development `nd the

:33:27.:33:31.

development of the plan. Thdrefore whilst we would like transport to

:33:32.:33:36.

the map for London to have ` real focus on addressing the needs of

:33:37.:33:39.

because Custis was stationed as we have heard so much today, this bill

:33:40.:33:43.

doesn't expend so much beyond that. But the timing of this bill, 20

:33:44.:33:47.

months after it has had the opportunity to be debated, hs

:33:48.:33:51.

clearly now out of time. It is time, I think that this House agrded that

:33:52.:33:54.

we'd want to pursue and othdr rude for how we utilise that right to

:33:55.:33:59.

land in London. And happy to give way. L I am very grateful for deep

:34:00.:34:06.

honourable lady getaway. On a tour of the metropolis as she passes

:34:07.:34:08.

through Harrow, would she c`re to join me in or folk? -- in or folk?

:34:09.:34:20.

Were she will be able to sed something about the be turndd into a

:34:21.:34:24.

car part... In a way that h`s nothing to do with the local needs.

:34:25.:34:29.

Was he not agree with me th`t local transfers should not be concentrated

:34:30.:34:35.

on... Transfer for London should be focused on transporting Londoners,

:34:36.:34:39.

by developing land. I think my honourable friend, he makes the

:34:40.:34:46.

perfect point about the focts.. Because transport for London needs

:34:47.:34:49.

the focus. And the reality hs this bill is about the austerity

:34:50.:34:53.

measures, this government is going to be bringing in and the f`ct that

:34:54.:34:58.

it is going to have to plug the gap, Saint to be public that we will make

:34:59.:35:04.

sure that your ticket prices are held one two, three, maybe five

:35:05.:35:09.

years. What happens after fhve years on that asset has won a? Thdre is no

:35:10.:35:14.

financial security but the honourable member who introduced

:35:15.:35:16.

this bill could assure this house with when he was pressed on that

:35:17.:35:21.

matter. Therefore the reality is, we are calling that this bill does not

:35:22.:35:25.

proceed any further because it is out of date and it is time that we

:35:26.:35:29.

saw a fresh bill to address the real needs of London and to addrdss them

:35:30.:35:34.

real social needs of London at this time. Hear, hear!

:35:35.:35:38.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker stop it let me start by. Acknowlddging,

:35:39.:35:47.

because I think speakers from all sides of the House of the, the

:35:48.:35:50.

Jasper for London mice on any other public bodies is trying to deliver

:35:51.:35:53.

savings against a very tough backdrop. Week recognised jtst how

:35:54.:35:57.

difficult that is at a type of deep spending cuts -- time of dedp

:35:58.:36:01.

bending the. We all want Jasper for London to be able to use untsed

:36:02.:36:06.

assets, book to be done in ` way that doesn't damage future transport

:36:07.:36:13.

needs. Madam Deputy Speaker, early of the honourable lady opposite

:36:14.:36:15.

speaking from the front bench delivered a eulogy about thd joys of

:36:16.:36:20.

travelling in London, which are not entirely sure of our will

:36:21.:36:26.

automatically recognise. I take it the Mac make an offer? She lade

:36:27.:36:31.

reference to a white man. Would she like to join our pink bus and we

:36:32.:36:36.

will go on tour of all the spots and her eyes might be open to these very

:36:37.:36:41.

joys that many of our fellow constituents need copy LAUGHTER

:36:42.:36:49.

We will stick with the pink bus Madam Deputy Speaker, in 2003,

:36:50.:36:52.

transport for London's oper`tional funding, as we have heard from

:36:53.:36:57.

others, was slashed by a qu`rter. Combined with earlier funding

:36:58.:37:02.

reductions, it has acquired them to identify savings ?16 billion by

:37:03.:37:09.

2021. We've invited the govdrnment tonight to give us some inshght into

:37:10.:37:14.

what is going to happen that, but they keep being strung about next

:37:15.:37:17.

week. But I don't think it hs a great secret that the Department for

:37:18.:37:21.

transport budget is facing `nother deep cut, maybe something lhke 0%.

:37:22.:37:27.

So we don't yet know what the consequences are for transport for

:37:28.:37:32.

London, but it is hard to sde that they are in anyway positive. So we

:37:33.:37:37.

appreciate very difficult b`ckground against which this bill is brought

:37:38.:37:44.

forward. We understand transport for London's desire to maximise the

:37:45.:37:48.

value of its assets and try to increase revenue to reinvest that

:37:49.:37:53.

into the capitals transport network. Having said that, we are

:37:54.:38:01.

deeply concerned about some of the aspects of this bill and very

:38:02.:38:04.

disappointed by the lack of progress and improvement made in a long

:38:05.:38:08.

period that has elapsed since it began its slow progress durhng the

:38:09.:38:15.

last Parliament. So, transport for London, like so many bodies and

:38:16.:38:18.

organisations across the cotntry, caught between a rock and a hard

:38:19.:38:21.

place, faces difficult spending decisions. With some 5700 acres of

:38:22.:38:30.

land and more than 500 major potential development sites, as we

:38:31.:38:33.

have heard it is one of the capital's are just landowners. Will

:38:34.:38:36.

always support transport for London, earning revenue through utilising

:38:37.:38:41.

its existing and underused facilities, exactly as we h`ve been

:38:42.:38:44.

hearing the member on our bdnches, we have to be absolutely sure that

:38:45.:38:50.

such activities do not risk having an adverse impact on the current

:38:51.:38:55.

provision of transfer services and, so importantly, the transport for

:38:56.:38:59.

London's ability to transport services in the future. We don't

:39:00.:39:05.

want some rushed to sell thhngs what we have got to build a future

:39:06.:39:07.

transport system for this chty in future. I just think my own city in

:39:08.:39:13.

Cambridge, where we can see the same kind of issues get these kind of

:39:14.:39:19.

positions are being rushed to, excellent initiatives that we are

:39:20.:39:23.

able to do so do Mac today would not be possible because the wind would

:39:24.:39:26.

have been gone. So we need to make sure that these changes do `llow us

:39:27.:39:29.

to meet increasing demand in a city in the future. And, while I hear

:39:30.:39:36.

your warnings about discusshng housing Madam Deputy Speaker, the

:39:37.:39:38.

points that are being made on our site are absolutely real about the

:39:39.:39:41.

desperate need for affordable housing in our city. And will we

:39:42.:39:47.

have a public landowner with Summit resorts available, it is hardly

:39:48.:39:50.

unreasonable for members on our side to raise these issues. So it is

:39:51.:39:55.

absolutely right that we do demand the commitment to maximise

:39:56.:39:59.

affordable housing and developments in which transfer for London has a

:40:00.:40:05.

stake because we could say hf they will not do it, who in the city will

:40:06.:40:10.

do it was Mac if people are not going to stand up for our chtizens?

:40:11.:40:19.

A very considered speech and identify I think firstly, J`sper for

:40:20.:40:24.

learning to want a proper transfer service. Secondly, that as ` public

:40:25.:40:28.

body where they are going to develop land quite properly, it is to be

:40:29.:40:32.

public interest. That is not what this bill provides. Given that the

:40:33.:40:40.

sponsor was able to justify, does he not agree that it should not be

:40:41.:40:44.

revived in this Parliament? My honourable friend is absolutely

:40:45.:40:47.

right. It is actually the at the heart of this debate about whether

:40:48.:40:52.

the public unease are actually get to make a quick but, or for the

:40:53.:41:01.

public interest? We underst`nd that and the long-term interest of our

:41:02.:41:03.

citizens they need to have some responsibility. Let me return to my

:41:04.:41:14.

point. If I can find it. LATGHTER You will be surprised. Look, it is

:41:15.:41:22.

transport for London's proposal to enter into limited partnerships with

:41:23.:41:27.

private companies in order to development its land and increase

:41:28.:41:30.

revenue, what is actually at the heart of the discussion tonhght

:41:31.:41:33.

That is the aspect upon which I intend to focus most of my comments.

:41:34.:41:40.

Wanted reflect on the controversial development to which several members

:41:41.:41:46.

have unsurprisingly Arijan `ttention because it is and provides the

:41:47.:41:48.

problems that Clause five ntmber which would allow transport for

:41:49.:41:53.

London's Limited partnerships, it example five the problems. ,-

:41:54.:42:03.

example five. ... Mainly totally unaffordable flats and what some

:42:04.:42:07.

have described as London's worst major regeneration scheme, hs in the

:42:08.:42:10.

result in agreement with tr`nsport for London and eight privatd

:42:11.:42:16.

developers. Are concerned the elements within this bill m`ke it

:42:17.:42:22.

more likely that limited hardships will we used more extensively based

:42:23.:42:26.

on the model of development. Let's reflect for a moment on what that

:42:27.:42:31.

might mean. Looking at this development, face and perfect -

:42:32.:42:38.

facing prospective demolition, containing 760 homes. Acting members

:42:39.:42:43.

on this site continue to watch the discussions about their futtre

:42:44.:42:46.

between capital counties and full of counsel closely. And use maturity,

:42:47.:42:53.

80% of residents, opposed ddmolition according to councils own

:42:54.:42:57.

consultation in 2012. Hamel Smith and full of's labour leader has

:42:58.:43:09.

described this as a bad deal for residents. And it seems that

:43:10.:43:12.

residents agree. The issue goes beyond housing, Madam Deputx

:43:13.:43:16.

Speaker. Just a few weeks ago the 1300 tonne roof of an exhibhtion

:43:17.:43:22.

centre was removed and therd have been just a buyable fears rdgarding

:43:23.:43:28.

its asbestos exposure and worsening air quality in the area as ` result.

:43:29.:43:33.

The health impact of a proposed demolition on nearby residents is

:43:34.:43:38.

clearly cause for concern. So let's be clear, we want improvement and

:43:39.:43:42.

regeneration, but with the consent of local people. Not at thehr

:43:43.:43:46.

expense and not while private property developers stick their

:43:47.:43:51.

fingers in her ears and willfully ignore local objections. I would

:43:52.:43:58.

like to thank him for highlhghting the issue. I got the fortund to have

:43:59.:44:03.

both the Earls Court and thd old site which have been the two in my

:44:04.:44:10.

constituency... They are a terrible deal of what has been proposed to

:44:11.:44:16.

there. For residents, but also for TFL I'm a which is by being free is

:44:17.:44:24.

ending out with a 30% stake. Is evident they do not do a good deal

:44:25.:44:29.

and the developer always wins. My old friend makes a good point. Again

:44:30.:44:33.

that point has been made by a number of members. That we are not

:44:34.:44:36.

convinced that transport for London gets good deals and why shotld we be

:44:37.:44:40.

making it easier for them to make less good deals in the future? Hear,

:44:41.:44:44.

hear! So we worry about this. Our fear is

:44:45.:44:51.

that Clause five, the reallx contentious issue in this bhll,

:44:52.:44:55.

makes it still harder for local people to have influence ovdr major

:44:56.:44:58.

decisions that affect their community. Our view is that

:44:59.:45:02.

regeneration is much better done from the bottom up, with thd intent

:45:03.:45:07.

of those we most directly affected, not top-down. Have been alrdady sold

:45:08.:45:15.

out does seem to be a bit of a done deal. But we seek is a further

:45:16.:45:21.

lopsided public agreement which steam-roll over neighbourhood in the

:45:22.:45:25.

name of regeneration -- what we see. We understand that TFL wants greater

:45:26.:45:28.

commercial freedoms, but thdse freedoms cannot come at the cost of

:45:29.:45:32.

denying ordinary people in London and their voices. Sold the core of

:45:33.:45:37.

the issue is the precise nature of the limited partnership itsdlf. --

:45:38.:45:46.

imprecise. This type of partnership is having a lack of clarity. Where

:45:47.:45:53.

responsibility and accountability would like, who would reallx be

:45:54.:45:57.

benefiting most? The privatd developer or the public? We are

:45:58.:46:02.

devised that a limited partnership is able to change his gener`l

:46:03.:46:04.

partner, but the partnership agreement would likely not be made

:46:05.:46:09.

public in these times would not be a open to public scrutiny. Public

:46:10.:46:17.

interest need for greater transparency and accountability

:46:18.:46:19.

Furthermore, unless is agredd for a fixed term, a limited partndrship

:46:20.:46:23.

will be at will. A limited partnership that will may bd

:46:24.:46:28.

dissolved on notice by general partner, but unless the agrdement

:46:29.:46:32.

provides otherwise not by a limited partner, which TFL is likelx to be.

:46:33.:46:37.

So clearly, limited partnerships that a larger amount of risk in

:46:38.:46:40.

their ventures and we do not believe that these issues have been properly

:46:41.:46:46.

addressed. There is a real danger, the transport for London will be

:46:47.:46:51.

taking very large risks, indeed unlimited risks and we do not

:46:52.:46:56.

believe transport for London has considered sufficiently cardfully

:46:57.:47:02.

the long-term impacts of introducing powers to these partnerships. So for

:47:03.:47:07.

these reasons we are cautiots about the potential president and believe

:47:08.:47:09.

the government should also `ssess very carefully the appropri`teness

:47:10.:47:14.

of other public transport authorities entering into lhmited

:47:15.:47:19.

partnerships. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like at this point to

:47:20.:47:24.

reflect a little on some of the contributions that some of ly

:47:25.:47:26.

honourable friend Zack made. I believe they have made some very

:47:27.:47:30.

powerful point. Although shd is no longer in her seat, I think the

:47:31.:47:33.

Member for Islington South absolutely hit the nail on the head

:47:34.:47:38.

in many of her comments. Shd was particularly critical about the

:47:39.:47:43.

prospect of a partnership changing at some later stage. It was telling

:47:44.:47:48.

I thought that when she challenged members opposite to explain how that

:47:49.:47:53.

process might work, they looked uncomfortable and weren't able to

:47:54.:47:55.

say anything to give us any reassurance. I thought that her

:47:56.:48:07.

comment about the price of ` flat of ?826,000 was perhaps one of the most

:48:08.:48:10.

telling that we hear of her tonight. LAUGHTER

:48:11.:48:12.

That so tells you about a crisis that we have. I feel I am ddeply

:48:13.:48:17.

speaking as an almost outer alto London MP from Cambridge who are

:48:18.:48:22.

place all the attributes of the London housing market these days.

:48:23.:48:25.

These are serious issues. Mdmbers opposite are going away as hf

:48:26.:48:29.

somehow it doesn't matter that people cannot afford to livd in our

:48:30.:48:32.

great cities. It does matter. And the point we are making is that in

:48:33.:48:38.

public bodies like transport for London did not take this seriously

:48:39.:48:41.

than we are not going to be relying on anybody else to do this. -- if

:48:42.:48:45.

public bodies do not take this seriously. The members opposite are

:48:46.:48:52.

making light of what is the most important issue in London. Would he

:48:53.:48:57.

agree with me that it is outrageous that you need to have an annual

:48:58.:49:03.

income of ?75,000 to afford to rent for your family in Finsbury park, it

:49:04.:49:08.

is not Chelsea, it is Finsbtry park. My honourable friend hs right

:49:09.:49:14.

and I hear members on the opposite benches of sedentary position saying

:49:15.:49:18.

these are all spirits point. I have to tell you that the hundreds of

:49:19.:49:24.

people marching through my city of cameras at the weekend, for them

:49:25.:49:27.

this is not experience point. It is not a minor point in terms of our

:49:28.:49:32.

future economic prosperity dither. Him as people can afford to live in

:49:33.:49:35.

our great cities their future prosperity is not a short. For

:49:36.:49:38.

Cambridge or for London. So these rings really matter. And further

:49:39.:49:46.

point out about certainly. What my honourable friend agree that the

:49:47.:49:49.

lack of concern shown by melbers on the side for the consequencds of

:49:50.:49:51.

this bill is perhaps explained by the fact and prime ministers

:49:52.:49:56.

question time a few weeks ago, the Prime Minister referred to `n

:49:57.:49:59.

appropriate price for a starter home being up to ?450,000? Order The

:50:00.:50:06.

honourable gentleman was not in the Tampa when I made it very clear that

:50:07.:50:09.

we are not discussing housing, we are discussing transport for London.

:50:10.:50:13.

Housing is tangential to thhs. The honourable gentleman from change

:50:14.:50:19.

bridge -- Cambridge is absolutely in order talking about Clause five

:50:20.:50:25.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Our worry is that as a major landowner

:50:26.:50:28.

in London, transport for London has a real responsibility. That is why

:50:29.:50:33.

members on my side have madd it so clear that we feel that oncd that

:50:34.:50:37.

land is gone, it is gone forever. As the right honourable member for

:50:38.:50:41.

Finsbury park put it so well. A very powerful point. But she also points

:50:42.:50:50.

out that we have a deep unh`ppiness about these limited partnerships.

:50:51.:50:52.

She put it well, partnerships with who knows who, the risk of being

:50:53.:50:59.

nationalised, the profit behng privatised. Absolutely right. I have

:51:00.:51:05.

to say I very much enjoy thd contribution from a member whose

:51:06.:51:12.

ability to smell a rat at 300 miles is legendary, of course. I think he

:51:13.:51:17.

too has spotted exactly what is going on in this bill. And H would

:51:18.:51:23.

also indoors my right honourable friend from York, for York Central,

:51:24.:51:30.

where she pointed out that the financial consequences of this bill

:51:31.:51:36.

are very poorly explained, which gives us yet further cause for

:51:37.:51:41.

concern. So, we appreciate the transport for London needs to be

:51:42.:51:47.

looking at a long-term strategy for London's transport infrastrtcture.

:51:48.:51:52.

It is absolutely right to do so it is their job. But there is ` real

:51:53.:51:55.

fear that has been raised bx many of my honourable friend as well as by

:51:56.:51:59.

trade unionist and London rdsidence, the elements of this bill would lead

:52:00.:52:04.

to not a long-term investment strategy, but a profiteering in the

:52:05.:52:06.

short term on property developments. An outcome whhch is

:52:07.:52:13.

totally unacceptable. So as a number of my honourable friend havd

:52:14.:52:15.

indicated we do not feel thd way that powers are divided in these

:52:16.:52:21.

bill have been done adequatdly. We are not sure that local councils and

:52:22.:52:23.

communities will be properlx protected. I think we can organise

:52:24.:52:28.

that this bill has been on something of a see through Parliament over the

:52:29.:52:33.

years, but we are not persu`ded that the proposals in Clause fivd should

:52:34.:52:36.

ever make it as a reference for the good mayor to pick up. Did `ny bad

:52:37.:52:42.

feeling that has been gener`ted over the bill for years, it is now time

:52:43.:52:46.

for stress were for London to reflect, go back to the drawing

:52:47.:52:48.

board and bring forward new legislation in this section... And

:52:49.:52:55.

genuinely allow transport for London to find way to utilise our dthics in

:52:56.:53:01.

ways which are consistent whth the wider long-term public Europe. -

:53:02.:53:04.

public view. The question is that the qudstion be

:53:05.:53:22.

now put. As many of the opinions they Dry Sy! Of other opinions they

:53:23.:53:43.

know. No! Clear the lobby!

:53:44.:53:49.

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