Browse content similar to 03/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
provisions. The clerk will proceed to read the orders of the day. -- | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
83J. I call the Minister to move the | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
second reading Bill, Minister Matthew Hancock. | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker and I beg to move that the bill now be read a | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
second time. Mr Speaker, every honourable member will know of the | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
charity or of charities doing extraordinary work in their | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
constituency and you may well as well. Many have served and will | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
serve as patrons or trustees or may even have subjected themselves to | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
ritual humiliation to raise money and awareness. I myself, Madam | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
Deputy Speaker, have dressed up as a sumo wrestler and carried a | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
pedometer for one week. I even lost two stone to raise a charger around | :00:51. | :01:00. | |
Newmarket July course. Charities help us cope with difficulties, | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
sickness of mind and body, entrenched poverty, natural | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
disaster. So often they be bilby that we in government should | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
follow. Long before there was an education at, NHS or welfare state, | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
there were holes are set up by charities who knew that people could | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
not wait. To date their compassion and kindness is matched with ideas | :01:21. | :01:27. | |
and innovation. When polymer wire and Robert McGuire posted their | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
first I spotted challenge video the expected to raise around ?500 for | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
the motoneuron disease Association, the campaign went viral and many of | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
us joined in and they ended up raising ?7 million. Although at | :01:39. | :01:47. | |
Bristol Together, a social enterprise that refurbishes | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
properties and uses ex-offenders to carry out the work. It is social | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
investment and it is transforming lives. And we in government are | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
committed to a full civil society, we have detected a budget for civil | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
society. We are expanding the brilliant National Citizen Service, | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
we are rolling out more locally designed social impact bonds. Along | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
with these opportunities, they are also challenges, perhaps more than | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
any other kind of enterprise, charities trade on the reputation, | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
scandals of poor governance or unscrupulous fundraising undermined | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
public trust, tarnishing the vast majority of charities that are well | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
run and only seek to do good. -- polymer wire. I will give way. | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
I could not agree more with the opening remarks of my rate | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
honourable friend, talking about the charity landscape. However, I am a | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
patron of Are not and I am Chancellor of the Prison Reform | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
Trust. Both organisations are concerned, and I hope that my rate | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
honourable friend can be their concerns, that this much needed | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
piece of legislation may make it more difficult for them bearing in | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
mind the subject which interest them, that is to see of the | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
conditions of prisoners, may make it more difficult for them to have on | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
their bodies, on their trustees, the groups, people with criminal | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
convictions. The point is obvious but I am sure my right honourable | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
friend with it. -- Paula McGuire. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
can give some assurance to my honourable friend, sorry, my | :03:30. | :03:38. | |
honourable and Leonard friend, Mike Right Honourable and learned friend! | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
If you would like to raise it any further I can continue! I can give | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
an assurance, I give him those two charities of wiki is a of that work. | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
While protecting charities through this bill, we also, of course seek | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
to support the good work that excellent charities do. In the case | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
of extra restrictions for those with underspent convictions, those that | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
are proposed in the bill, there is first the ability of the charities | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
commission itself to waive the restrictions of those with | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
underspent convictions and then, as with all of the extra powers of the | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
Charity Commission, there is the ability to appeal to the charity 's | :04:27. | :04:35. | |
tribunal. I hope that he is reassured by the safeguards that are | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
already in this Bill, but I would also hope that we can work with him | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
in order to make sure that they are applied properly two charities that | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
have to do this work in such an important area. | :04:49. | :04:54. | |
I am most grateful to my right honourable friend and he has been | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
extremely clear and helpful. May I make him this one offer? I know the | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
success of Newmarket race -- Newmarket Racecourse, Leicester | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
racecourse in my constituency is very good, if you would like to run | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
there, please let me know! I am grateful for that unexpected | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
invitation and I would dearly like or attempted to do that. I'm not and | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
the Prison Reform Trust will work with Austin Mitchell that this Bill | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
is passed. Moving more broadly on to the question of supporting the | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
reputation of charities, scandals of poor governance or unscrupulous | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
fundraising undermined public trust, as I have said. By one | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
measure, trust in the sector is at a civil year ago and it is in all of | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
our interest to make sure that we have a strong and confident and | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
thriving charity sector. The purpose of this Bill is twofold. Firstly to | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
tackle the challenges and to unlock new opportunities, and if I may, | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I will turn and go through the main provisions | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
of this Bill. There are three main areas, firstly strengthening the | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
Charity Commission powers, including over trustee disqualification. | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
Secondly, the regulation of charity fundraising and thirdly, a new | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
social investment power for charities. The first part of the | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
bill relates to the Charity Commission's powers, let me turn to | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
that. The purpose of the Charity Commission is to ensure that each of | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
the 164,000 charities in England and Wales bursaries its charity | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
objectives. Set up in 1853, it has done a century and a half of good | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
work, about two years ago both the national audit of this and the | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
Public Accounts Committee found that the Charity Commission was failing | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
in its core duty, and in particular, that it was not doing enough to | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
tackle the abuse of charity status. The NAO made a series of | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
recommendations to improve the commission's effectiveness and based | :07:01. | :07:02. | |
on this the Coalition Government published proposals for new powers, | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
following a public consultation of the draft bill and it was published. | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
The legislative scrutiny and bills passing through the has resulted in | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
further refinement and I would like to take this opportunity to thank | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
all those members, peers and others who have helped improve the bill | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
that we present to the House today. These measures are just one part of | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the wider programme of reform aimed at turning the Charity Commission | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
into a tough, clear and proactive regulator. | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
It pains me to point out that he has left out the very significant | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
scrutiny or post-legislative scrutiny on the existing pact | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
conducted by my own committee at the last part of the demonstration | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
Select Committee, which really was the prime precursor of the bill, and | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
I personally sat on the joint committee which did the | :08:00. | :08:00. | |
pre-legislative scrutiny of the current bill. But could he tell us | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
something about recent controversies around, for example, charity | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
fundraising, where we Arnold very frustrated that are conducting | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
significant inquiries which the regulator, the charities commission | :08:18. | :08:19. | |
should be conducting, but the should be conducting, but the | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
Charity Commission does not necessarily have the powers to hold | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
these hearings in public in a way that would demonstrate its | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
regulatory role? I was going to come onto the work of | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
honourable friend's work in making honourable friend's work in making | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
sure that we have this Bill in the best possible shape, and I am very | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
grateful for the work that he did at the end of the last Parliament, | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
after the national or that of this report on getting a ball and making | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
sure that we have to build and that it is one that can do what is | :08:56. | :08:56. | |
necessary to make If I can just reply to the | :08:57. | :09:08. | |
substantive point I will then give way. We believe the Charity | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
commission has the power is to convene meetings in public. However, | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
I recognise there is a question on whether it does or not and so I | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
suggest doing the passage of the bill we will take this point in more | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
detail and we are prepared to accept amendments if necessary to accept | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
clarity on the point he makes. I will give way. I agree that | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
legislative and pre-legislative scrutiny are important in this way. | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
Can he say how much legislative scrutiny is being given by Her | :09:46. | :09:54. | |
Majesty's opposition? This is a bill that I hope can unite all sides of | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
the House and I welcome the honourable member opposite. My | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
honourable friend has made the point and it will be clearly shown on the | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
record that I do not want to get into an unnecessary dispute with the | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
opposition given that I hope we will have all-party support for what I | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
hope is an important bill which will strengthen the Charity commission | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
and is ultimately in the best interests of charities throughout | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
the land. On the question of providing that tough, clear and | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
proactive regulator and under the strong and capable leadership of | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
William Shawcross and Paula Sussex, they have put in a method of | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
tackling mismanagement at the regulator needs to have teeth and | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
the commission needs our help to address the gaps and deficiencies in | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
its legal powers. The bill will close these gaps in the | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
commission's capabilities as well as close a number of damaging loopholes | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
in charity law. Let me briefly outline the five new powers will | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
stop these are powers that will help protect the public, staff and people | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
who work in the charities and to ensure we do not seek and they do | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
not see to exploit vulnerable people. First, the Bill will extend | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
the automatic criteria. The current law is on adding people who have | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
misappropriated charitable assets but these criteria are far too | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
narrow so instead we will extend them to include people with unspent | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
convictions as my right honourable friend mentions for | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
money-laundering, bribery, perjury, misconduct in public office and on | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
the sex offenders register and those convicted of terrorism offences | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
including individuals subject to asset freezing. They will be given | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
new powers to disqualify, in instances within individual has | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
behaved in a way that makes them unfit to be HIV to the trust deed | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
acting on a case-by-case basis. This is essential to empower the Charity | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
commission to tackle those who would bring charities into disrepute. I | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
would hope it would be used with care and decisiveness. The bill | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
gives the Charity commission a new official warning power in regards to | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
low-level misconduct. This will allow for a proportionate approach | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
to less serious cases. It allows a new power for the Charity commission | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
to start winding up of a charity which would apply if the commission | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
whose the charity is not operating or its purposes could be promoted | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
more effectively by ceasing to operate and to do so would be in the | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
public interest. This power we believe would be used in very | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
limited circumstances and is subject to several safeguards. The bill | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
closes a loophole that allows offending trustees to resign before | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
been removed by the commission and to act as a trustee for a different | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
charity without fear of repercussions. This would ensure | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
trustees are longer able to escape accountability if the abuse their | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
position of trust. All five of these proposals would be subject to the | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
general duty to have regard to best practice and, with the exception of | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
the officials warning power, all of the officials new powers are subject | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
to the right of appeal to the Charity Tribunal. All five of the | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
measures outlined are essential to protecting the interests and | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
reputation of the vast majority of charities run by people of great | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
integrity. The Charity commission was closely involved in developing | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
the powers and fully supports them. Independent research for the Charity | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
commission found 92% of charities reported new tougher powers for the | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
regulator. We also intend to remove clause nine of the Bill which was | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
added at reports stage in the Lords. We have serious concerns about the | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
unintended consequences of clause nine because it puts complex case | :14:22. | :14:29. | |
law into a single statutory provision and imposes a major new | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
regulation on the commission. Clause nine was not proposed because of | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
concerns about charities in general are in a narrow attempt by the other | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
place to underline the government's manifesto commitment to extend the | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
right to buy. It is regrettable that the bill with widespread support was | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
used in this week and we cannot allow it to stand. I would ask we | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
consider the matter elsewhere. Let me turn to the challenge of | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
regulating charity fundraising which has already been raised. We are one | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
of the most generous countries in the world when it comes to charity | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
fundraising giving. But when people want to give the do not want to be | :15:13. | :15:20. | |
bullied or harassed into doing so. A voluntary donation has to be | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
voluntary. We saw the sad case of Britain's longest serving poppy | :15:26. | :15:31. | |
seller, for years she was harassed with phone calls and calls for money | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
and charities for years had taken her details and swap them with other | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
charities. In one month alone she apparently received 267 charity | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
letters and sadly, since then, more cases of unscrupulous fundraising | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
practices had come to light and we must act. We began I asking for a | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
review of fundraising over the summer backed by a cross-party panel | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
of peers and I want to thank them for their work. He recommended the | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
new tougher framework of self-regulation and we are working | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
with charities to deliver it. The Lord of Yarm I've will review the | :16:12. | :16:22. | |
independent body. It will be able to adjudicate against any organisation | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
undertaking charity fundraising. The body will be accompanied by a | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
fundraising preference service similar to the Telephone preference | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
service which would give the public heater control over their consent to | :16:34. | :16:40. | |
receive fundraising request. Next it would inhibit contract is from | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
raising fundraising attempts unless the contract and explains how they | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
will protect people from undue pressure and set out how compliance | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
will be monitored by the charity and will require large charities to | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
include a section in the trustees annual report about the fundraising | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
undertaken by or on their half. This will include an explanation of how | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
the protect the public in general and vulnerable people in particular | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
from undue pressures and other who practices. I will give way. Can I | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
take this opportunity to inform the House that, of course, the public | :17:20. | :17:28. | |
constitution are fears committee is concluding an enquiry into | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
charitable fundraising alongside the enquiry into Kids Company we are | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
very much concentrating on the conduct of trustees in these matters | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
and the responsibility of trustees to run and oversee and support | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
charitable organisations that reflect their values in their | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
operations as much of the dudes in their objections. We are making | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
recommendations around that because it might be insufficient to rely on | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
processes and instructions to make sure things are F or clay and | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
properly run. I welcome that the review and I hope that during the | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
passage of this bill through this House we can consider and we're | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
appropriate take on board any of the recommendations that improve the | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
bill and I am glad that the work of the committee is happening | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
concurrently and no doubt that recommendations, I hope, can come | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
forward in time for them to be considered for this bill. How can we | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
make more explicit the amount of money spent on management overhead, | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
in particular the 18th two ?120 per direct debit set up that goes to | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
chugging agencies? That needs to be made clear to people as that is an | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
average the first year of any direct debit set up in favour of the | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
charity. At the moment we pull our not clear about how much of their | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
generosity is being expended on management overall and this practice | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
in particular. I am a great fan of transparency and a supporter of | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
transparency across government. I think we should look here fully at | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
whether further transparency can be brought to charities and how it can | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
be best delivered. I have no doubt transparency begins at home for | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
charities and best practice is to be widely transparent right their | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
operations. The is a question on whether we should do more and Ian | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
are balanced arguments in both directions. That is something we | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
should consider as we go through the stages of this bill. I am grateful | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
to him for giving way. Is there something in this new power that | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
gives to charities that apart from the original charity ambitions and | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
disproportionate funding and campaigning organisations? We took | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
action towards the end of the last Parliament in insulating that the | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
legal framework around charities and other organisations, ensures that | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
they do not cross over into direct partisan political work. The reason | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
a review is under way as to how that lobbying ill, the lobbying act in | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
the House had worked, Ian are questions as to whether it needs to | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
go further. The best place to deal with those is indeed a view and | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
scrutiny of the legislation now that it is in action. I understand the | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
concerns that the honourable member, my honourable friend, puts. | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
It is important that the review we have and fully considers the impact | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
that the legislation we passed only in the last year as already | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
happened. We regard the Etherington package in this ill, including the | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
fundraising preference service and a move to opt in for further contact | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
as the minimum necessary to rebuild public trust. We are proposing that | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
this regulation of fundraising happens on a self-regulatory basis | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
but self-regulation must implement the reviews recommendations in full | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
and some people have rightly asked what will happen if self-regulation | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
feels? We want it to work but we are clear practices must change. At | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
committee stage we intend to bring forward amendments that will | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
strengthen the government's powers to intervene if the self-regulation | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
feels. Predatory fundraising targeted at vulnerable people is | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
wrong. It has shaken public confidence in charities and we are | :22:05. | :22:05. | |
determined to stamp it out. I am most grateful to him for being | :22:06. | :22:16. | |
so generous and I regret that I cannot stage take part in this | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
debate. The House will need to know that we're going to produce report | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
in January in good time for the conclusion of this bill. Before he | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
leaves the matter of fundraising, could he bear in mind the concerns | :22:29. | :22:36. | |
that many people have about some charities which raise a substantial | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
part of their income from foreign sources, and that the security | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
services are concerned that this, organisations might posing as | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
charities, might be receiving funds from abroad for nefarious purposes. | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
Is this something that he will perhaps consider bringing in to the | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
Bill to deal with at a later stage in the passage of this Bill, because | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
I know it is something that also concerns the Charity Commission? The | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
chairman of the Select Committee need not apologise, he can intervene | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
on me as many times as he likes and I will always seek to take his | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
interventions. Otherwise he will seek to get me in front of him in | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
some other way! But on the substantive point that he raises, | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
and this is a concern that has been raised with us, and we want to look | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
at it in more detail, and consider the matter as the Bill passes | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
through the House. I want now to move on to the opportunities that | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
were trying to open up in this Bill. We want to allow charities to fulfil | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
their mission by providing a new power of social investment. Social | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
investment seeks a positive social impact and a financial return, | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
trying to make money go further. It is a huge and growing chance for UK | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
charities to make more of their assets in a field where the UK is | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
already the world leader. In 2014, the Law Commission conducted a | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
review of charities' social investment powers. They found a lack | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
of clarity around charities' social investment powers and duties, and | :24:15. | :24:22. | |
concluded this could be deterring some charities from getting involved | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
in what I think is an exciting new field. UK charities currently hold | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
assets of over ?80 billion, but they have only made social investment of | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
around ?100 million. And we think that with the right support that | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
market could double over the next few years. This Bill will ensure | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
that more charities have a chance to take full advantage of social | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
investment, should they so wish. It removes the existing uncertainty by | :24:46. | :24:47. | |
providing us with the civic new power to make social investments. -- | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
by providing a specific new power. It insures that also shall | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
investments are made in the best interests of the charity, allowing | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
charities to make investments with the jewel aide of achieving their | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
mission and four following a financial return. It is the way of | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
the future, and it is happening here in Britain, and we want and | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
supported to go further. Madam Deputy Speaker, the work that | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
charities do transcends politics and unites all sides of this House. We | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
want all charities to enjoy the very highest level of public trust and | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
esteem, and the generosity this brings. By delivering a more | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
effective regulator, by tackling unscrupulous fundraising and by | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
unleashing the power of social investment, this Bill will | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
strengthen that trust, and allow charities to do more with that | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
generosity. And I commend it to the House. The question is that the Bill | :25:41. | :25:50. | |
be now read a second time. An attorney. It is my privilege to | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
respond to this bill at its second reading, as shadow civil society | :25:56. | :26:03. | |
Minister. I would like to thank them for the open and corporative way in | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
which they have sought to engage with us. I would like to thank all | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
the civil servants involved in drafting this bill, and all these | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
charities and organisations who have contributed to it development and to | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
our understanding. I would also like to thank all the noble Lords in the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
other Place, who have used their customary wisdom and experience to | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
refine and improve this bill as it went through its process. This is a | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
good and important Bill, and we on these benches welcome it. There is | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
some room for improvement, of course, and I will come into that in | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
my speech. But its objectives are to be welcomed. We all know the vital | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
role that charities play in holding a strong and flourishing civil | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
society. Thousands of people around the country give up their time every | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
day as trustees and volunteers, and thousands more depend on the vital | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
services that they provide. As the Minister has said, charities change | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
and they save lives. They support the poorest and most vulnerable. | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
They pick up the pieces of the social and economic failures that we | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
see. They heal, they tend the sick, they bring dignity in old age, and | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
they give children the best start in life. We owe it to all of them to | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
provide a secure and robust regulatory environment which can | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
inspire confidence and allow the sector to flourish. We note the | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
sector has had a difficult year. The regulation of the sector has come | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
under increasing scrutiny, and we have seen high profile cases that | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
have been deeply concerning. We have seen some poor governance, we have | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
seen financial mismanagement, we have seen some concerning | :27:37. | :27:38. | |
fundraising methods that the Minister has sat out. These cases | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
are extremely rare, but they are also deeply disappointing to the | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
rest of the charitable sector. But it is important to the rest of the | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
charitable sector. But it is important nonetheless that we | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
support and encourage the confidence in the wider sector by coming down | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
on any abuse, and that is why we welcome this bill. It has been good | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
to see the sector itself step up to the plate to tackle so many of these | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
concerns, and it is vital we play our part in supporting them in this | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
process by giving them the legislative and regulatory | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
environment that they need. It is vital we get the right balance | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
between a strong and sound regulatory environment that ensures | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
trust, and one which also allows charities the freedom to innovate, | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
to fund raise, to be innovative and enterprising. And, crucially, to be | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
effective in delivering their social aims and objectives. So we welcome | :28:30. | :28:31. | |
the core aims of this Bill. To protect stronger protections for | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
charities in England and Wales from individuals were unfit to be charity | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
trustees, this is vital to prevent abuse and it's all good governance. | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
Secondly, we support the measure is to equip the Charity Commission with | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
new powers to tackle abuse more effectively and efficiently. The | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
sector needs to be able to respond quickly and decisively to any | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
concerns raised, so that we can ensure confidence in the sector. | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
Further clarification is required though, and we will work with the | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
Minister to resolve these that committee. I want to put on record | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
at this point my pleasure to hear the Minister say that the Government | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
will use the committee stage to look again at fundraising, and whether | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
self-regulation is efficient, and what steps we can take if | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
self-regulation fails. We also welcome the aim to give charities a | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
new power to make social investment. While some already doing this, it is | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
important that we give them the reassurance to enable them to do so. | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
We know that one in three British consumers will pay more for products | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
with positive social or environmental outcomes, and it is | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
important that we enable the charitable sector to encourage this. | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
However, there are some areas in which we believe this Bill can | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
continue to be improved, and we look to work with a government back row | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
during the progress of this bill through committee to do so. We'll be | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
seeking to discuss the following points. Firstly, as the Minister has | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
or dimension, the freedom to speak and engage in political discourse. | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
-- has already mentioned. We continue to oppose the lobbying act, | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
and intend to use the passage of this Bill to campaign and speak out | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
on issues in line with their objectives. It is so often charities | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
that end up picking up the pieces of our policy failures, and he is vital | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
that we give them the right to campaign, to campaign on their | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
issues and to challenge and hold us to account. This is a key part of | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
the strong and healthy democratic exercise. Secondly, cause nine, the | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
disposal of assets. The clause sets out that the Charity Commission | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
should ensure that independent charities are not compelled to use | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
or dispose of their assets in a way which is inconsistent with their | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
charitable purpose. We will continue to defend this close to give Hauser | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
housing associations not to be bullied by a government determined | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
to sell off and run down affordable housing. We think it is right for | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
charities have the freedom to dispose of their assets in the way | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
that they see fit. Thirdly, the protection of children and | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
vulnerable adults. We have the opportunity in this Bill to better | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
protect children and vulnerable people, we are grateful that the | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
Government looked at the proposals in the other place to include it | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
people on the sex offenders register as being barred from being trustees, | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
and we'll be looking at other measures in committee stage. | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
Finally, clarifying some powers of the Charity Commission. The Bill | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
seeks to strengthen the powers of the Charity Commission, and we there | :31:25. | :31:30. | |
should be strong supported regulator of charities that acts fairly and | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
has the appropriate powers. Ultimately, the regulator must | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
preserve public trust and confidence in charities. However, there are | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
some provisions in the bill that could potentially threaten the | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
independence of charities. The Charity Commission could have the | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
power to give warnings to a charity, for example. There are no objections | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
to this in principle, but the current drafting does raise some | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
concerns with the sector. For example, the commission can issue a | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
warning if they think there has been a breach of duty or trust or other | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
conduct or mismanagement. It is possible that the commission could | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
issue a warning regarding a relatively low level of concern. It | :32:07. | :32:09. | |
could be possible that an earlier disagreement between the trustees | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
and the commission as to whether that one is justified. There should | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
be safeguards attached to the issuing of a warning, and failure to | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
comply with a warning should not in itself have significant | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
consequences, which could be disastrous for charities. I hope we | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
can continue to discuss this further in committee. In addition, the | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
commission should give adequate notice of their intention to issue a | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
statutory warning. These are issues which should be discussed during the | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
committee stage. There should also be consideration for right of appeal | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
to the Charity Tribunal, considering the implications are warning would | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
have on the Charity in question I look forward to working with the | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
ministers at the committee stage on this issues. We believe all of these | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
areas can be discussed and looked at in more detail as we take this Bill | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
forward into committee. This is an important Bill. It has room for | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
improvement, but offers a great deal to build trust and confidence in the | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
charitable sector, and that is why this side of the House will be | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
supporting it, and I look forward to working with the ministers in | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
committee. Fiona Bruce. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I support the | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
rationale behind this bill, which I think it is of great importance to | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
many members of the public. And its purposes are indeed important to | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
protect the public from unscrupulous fundraisers, and stop individuals | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
from running charities, abusing them. I agree action should be taken | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
in such cases, I agree that the Charity Commission should have | :33:47. | :33:47. | |
appropriate powers where misconduct is proven to have occurred. I'm | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
pleased to note that the National Council for voluntary organisations | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
says "it is widely acknowledged that deliberate wrongdoing in charities | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
is extremely rare". It is important we remember that when discussing | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
this Bill. There are many millions of people across this country who | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
devote themselves and give selflessly of their time to | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
charities, and it is very important that we do nothing that in anyway | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
inhibits them from engaging and contributing to this important part | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
of our civic society. With that motivation, Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
want to highlight some concerns that I do have about them, in particular | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
regarding some of the new powers, which I hope will be helpful and | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
parts could be explored further in committee stage. I'm speaking parts | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
with reference particularly to the new measures, clause three, clause | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
11, and the wide ranging wording of this part, which I am concerned | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
could severely curbed civic engagement, deter people from | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
wanting to be appointed as an officer to a charity, and I have | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
over 30 years' experience of working in private practice, where charity | :35:12. | :35:18. | |
law and the representation of charities is a particular part of | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
that practice, and I know that over these years it has become | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
increasingly difficult to get individuals to step up to the | :35:27. | :35:34. | |
plate, and to agree to an appointment in a charity. It's often | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
one of the challenges that new charities have. Interestingly, | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
particularly the appointment of treasurer. I come to this debate | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
with over three decades of practical experience of working in this field. | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
And very much wanted to insure that we encourage and do not deter very | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
responsible people that this Bill is seeking to support. Clause 11, I | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
note its new powers to suspend and disqualify has a very extensive list | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
of reasons within it. But I note that this could in future be varied | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
by ministers laying new regulations, subject to those regulations being | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
consulted upon, and we all know in this House are consultations can | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
often, with the best will in the world on the part of Government, can | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
only reach a few members of the public, and only be scrutinised | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
within a few members in committee here. I have concerns about the very | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
excessive powers which are being granted, if this bill is passed, but | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
which perhaps, if extended, could actually come to embrace actions | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
which were never perhaps fully scrutinised or intended by many | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
members of this place. So I enter that caveat regarding that right for | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
reasons for disqualification to be extended merely by ministers laying | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
new regulations. Can I now look at clause three? It gives immense power | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
to the Charity Commission indeed, the commission in its policy paper | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
of late 2015 called a significant new power. | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
I am concerned that the wording of the Bill says, the Charity | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
Commission shall issue a warning to a charity trustee or trustee for a | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
charity who it considers has committed some form of misconduct or | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
mismanagement. Who it considers, that is a wide-ranging phrase. I | :37:44. | :37:52. | |
note also, within subsection two, sub-clause two of clause one. At | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
that point in time, they issue a warning which it can publish. The | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
charity or the person subject to that warning can respond, but the | :38:07. | :38:13. | |
publication may well have already occurred. The damage to the | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
reputation of the charity, to the individual and to the charitable | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
work in general, I'm concerned about the fact there is an opportunity to | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
publish without an opportunity to respond. If I am incorrect in that, | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
I would be grateful if the Minister could correct me on that point. I | :38:36. | :38:44. | |
would like to turn to some of the conditions for this. It will | :38:45. | :38:55. | |
interpret some of the conditions, including undermining the confidence | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
of the public. It is that which I want to highlight now. Conduct which | :39:02. | :39:10. | |
might damage public trust. Simply on that one criteria, the charity | :39:11. | :39:18. | |
emission could take steps to act and issue, as I say, the warning I have | :39:19. | :39:24. | |
referred to. The Charity Commission says, on its own interpretation of | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
the Bill, but it will use a space for this. The knowledge of the | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
service it takes into public trust. I'm concerned about that. Does this | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
mean, for a double, that the Charity Commission can carry out a poll, | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
asking people for certain views, whether it would make the public | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
more less likely to trust that individual or that charity? What of | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
those views were very much in the minority in our society today? What | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
if they were views that were very much opposed to current government | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
policy? Perhaps views on foreign policy. That is quite a broad | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
ranging power that the Charity Commission has, without, as far as I | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
can see, any requirement for any independent review from government | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
before that warning is issued, simply that there is some activity | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
which an individual has undertaken or something which an individual has | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
said which is contrary, perhaps, to the views that are held by the | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
majority of the public who respond to a survey. When the Bill talks | :40:38. | :40:46. | |
about any conduct, any conduct, does that mean conduct which someone | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
undertook several years before becoming a trustee? All of us know | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
that views can change over time. Many of us may well have expressed | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
views on years ago which have changed. How is an individual going | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
to be protected from action which could be undertaken which could have | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
incredibly far-reaching repercussions for that individual, | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
if steps are taken using this legislation? I want to just | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
highlight, because I don't think this is merely theoretical, how | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
serious this is, by reminding the House of the challenges that the | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
Plymouth Reverend had in the last Parliament regarding the threat to | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
their charitable registration because of the interpretation of the | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
words, public benefit, within the 2006 charities Bill. -- Charities | :41:45. | :41:53. | |
Bill. We have got an excellent head of the committee and I think he is a | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
man who has wisdom and expresses his opinions and makes his deliberations | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
and sessions very carefully and with great common sense, if I may say. It | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
is following his appointment as a chairman of the commission that I | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
felt that there was some appropriate approach taken towards the problem | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
that they found themselves in when their charitable status was | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
challenged, it went to tribunal. It was very serious, they had to engage | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
lawyers. It would affect over 300 churches. These are long established | :42:32. | :42:40. | |
denominations across the entire country. This challenge they had was | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
a very common serious -- a very, a very common serious -- a very, | :42:44. | :42:53. | |
very serious one. What they had to do, and I mentioned this, and it is | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
to their credit, in the past, they had carried out an enormous amount | :42:59. | :43:06. | |
of voluntary work without shouting about it. What they had to do was to | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
start to produce documentation, and they produced some excellent | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
booklets, stating the public benefit, which they have carried on | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
doing. For example, with disaster relief. Eventually, as we know, | :43:24. | :43:31. | |
there worse a major debate in this House. Ireland one Westminster Hall | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
debate where there were over 40 mounds of Parliament who spoke up | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
for them, to say that this action should never have been taken based | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
on the subjective interpretation of the words "public benefit". That | :43:44. | :43:53. | |
action was withdrawn at the charitable status of the Plymouth | :43:54. | :44:01. | |
Brethren and others waiting for the decision was secure. Perhaps a | :44:02. | :44:10. | |
further consideration, if we talk about minority views undermining | :44:11. | :44:18. | |
public confidence, where would the suffragettes have been in all of | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
this years ago? Our society today contains a wide range of views and | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
beliefs. They are passionately held. They often very visibly held, | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
disagreement is frequent as we saw yesterday. It is the cornerstone of | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
a free society. We know that social media can be called in this | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
respect, and many people can despise or reject people simply based on | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
sincerely held but different or minority views. I think it is very | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
important that we ensure that genuine people with genuinely held | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
minority views, and that is what charities are for, to protect the | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
vulnerable and minorities, that they are protected from the unintended | :45:09. | :45:16. | |
consequences, and I'm sure they are unintended, of this legislation. I | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
touch on different faith groups. Many religions in this country hold | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
views that are different from the others. Some of them are strongly | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
rejected. We have to look at the view of creationism. We now know | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
that in schools, this cannot be taught as a scientific fact but it | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
can still, one would hope, be expanded as a belief in R E lessons. | :45:41. | :46:01. | |
If it was seen that it could be undermining public others, that is | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
one example. Different views on sexual ethics... I'm not talking | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
about minorities here. I know of a Church of England vicar who spoke | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
with me only in the last few weeks that he had gone into a school, he | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
was speaking, and this is our state church, speaking about a particular | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
view from a particular, biblical aspect, and he was given the | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
distinct impression, please don't come in and talk about this issue | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
again. The chilling effect that legislation can have on free speech | :46:32. | :46:40. | |
in our society on people with sincerely held but minority beliefs, | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
we must ensure that we protect from this. I'm turning now, if I may, | :46:44. | :46:51. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, to the connection to this Bill and the | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
dogma's counter extremism strategy. That links the new powers in this | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
Bill with it. I understand that will stop I understand what the | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
Government is seeking to do in ensuring that charities are not | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
abused for extremist purposes. The problem is what is the definition of | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
extremism? We don't appear to have a clear definition at present, and it | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
is one which impacts on this Bill and could impact very negatively. I | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
just want to, if I may, explore this issue a little further. In the | :47:37. | :47:45. | |
counter extremism strategy document which the Government has put Ford, | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
at least the information document, a claim Mizen is defined as the vocal | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
or active opposition to a fundamental values, including | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and a mutual | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs. That sounds | :48:02. | :48:12. | |
fine, but previous definitions had two all three additional words which | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
now appear to be missing from that definition. Previous definitions of | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
extreme as had the mutual respect and tolerance of those with | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
different faiths and beliefs. This is one of our fundamental beliefs. | :48:25. | :48:40. | |
The mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
beliefs. It is entirely right that we should respect for the people, | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
including those with other beliefs, and the right to respect... And we | :48:48. | :48:55. | |
respect their right to hold those beliefs. We have to speak very | :48:56. | :49:11. | |
carefully if we can take this -- ... If I say that I respect | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
Scientologists but I do not respect Scientology, so I am respecting | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
those who hold different police but I am not respecting the belief of | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
Scientologists. This that make me an extremist? We have to look carefully | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
at the way in which we define extremes. It is interesting to note | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
that the Government has yet to provide a statutory definition of | :49:38. | :49:46. | |
nonviolent extremism. Free speech is something which we all value so | :49:47. | :49:54. | |
highly in this House, and a free society is based on disagreement and | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
beach or respect. I believe it is strengthened, not compromised when I | :50:02. | :50:09. | |
respect a fellow this is but not necessarily their belief. I refer | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
against to the suffragettes. We might also referred to the slavery | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
issue. The wording of this definition is deeply troubling. We | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
need to ensure that we clarified. Rather than combating extremism, we | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
could end up contributing to the marginalisation, which feeds extras. | :50:31. | :50:41. | |
Open dialogue in the society is necessary if we are to promote | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
community cohesion. The role that favourite play in community | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
cohesion, through its involvement in the voluntary sector, is staggering. | :50:52. | :50:59. | |
The research earlier this year showed that faith groups could be ?3 | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
million towards social action and that unity is. That is just in | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
monetary terms. I think the social cohesion that faith groups provide | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
is unquantifiable. Thousands of churches run charity projects and | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
have done for decades. I'm concerned that the removal of the main | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
deterrents of those who hold faith views which in this society might | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
not necessarily be popular, certainly with not be considered | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
mainstream, could deny the charitable sector for decades of | :51:32. | :51:45. | |
expertise. The decades I have had working illegal practice, working | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
with the charitable sector, they are worried about becoming charitable | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
trust is. I wonder if the Minister would look | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
again at these powers for discoloured occasion because it is | :52:02. | :52:03. | |
very interesting that he used the term, self-regulation. I would not | :52:04. | :52:14. | |
like to become self exclusion or self discoloured occasion. That is | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
the concern I have because these powers are so wide and broad, and we | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
need to ensure that those thousands of experienced volunteers who are | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
involved in the chart will sector are not deterred from being involved | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
in society. That is not the governor's intention, I would be | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
grateful if the Government would look at these concerns. They are, I | :52:37. | :52:46. | |
am sure, unintended consequences will stop but they could cause | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
marginalisation in a sector where we need them so vitally. That is | :52:52. | :52:52. | |
something we cannot afford. I rise as the SNP spokesperson on | :52:53. | :53:08. | |
the Cabinet Office to make a brief contribution to the debate. You will | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
see from the benches behind me the absence of Scottish members of | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
Parliament in this discussion. Please do not take that as | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
disinterest, it is merely an acknowledgement of the fact that | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
provisions in this Bill do not apply in Scotland and therefore our | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
constituents would be not encumbered by them. That said, we do have a few | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
observations to make on the discussion at hand. I note that this | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
is a certified Bill, of course. And you will note that there is no | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
willingness of Scottish members to take part in the discussion anyway, | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
so perhaps this could serve as an illustration of whether or not the | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
English Votes For English Laws amendments to standing orders were | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
really necessary to burden this House. You have to be constructive | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
and help the Government if you wish to try and speed up the passage of | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
this legislation, I can assure you that we will not seek to have any | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
further contribution or influence in the matter under discussion, and you | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
can dispense with the legislative consent stage should that become | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
necessary. There is a different system in Scotland, obviously, and I | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
would like to place on record to pay tribute to the office of the | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
Scottish charities regulator, Oscar, which, since 2005, has provided | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
support to 23.5 thousand charities in Scotland of all shapes and sizes, | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
and in particular to their trustees. I have some personal experience of | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
this, because I served for seven years as a trustee of the Edinburgh | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
Festival fringe Society, one of the larger organisations in Scotland | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
which benefited greatly from the support given by Oscar. That said, | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
even though it is a different situation, we live in the same | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
island, and the regulations that apply in England and Wales to set | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
some of the context with which we will operate in Scotland, so we have | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
an interest in what happens in this House in terms of the legislation in | :55:04. | :55:11. | |
England and Wales. Of course, yes. It is only a very quick point, not | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
many people will be aware, in fact I wasn't myself until about six months | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
ago, that in Scotland, every charity is registered with the regulatory | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
body, whereas of course in England and Wales, many smaller charities | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
are not. Does the honourable gentleman have a view on that? I | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
actually think it is of relevance to the wider debate. All I can tell you | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
is that it works well in Scotland, and we do tend to take an approach | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
that if it isn't broke, don't fix it. I will make a comment on some | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
specifics in a moment. I want to welcome the Minister's support for | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
the role of charities in our society throughout the country. I would say | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
that it is important we recognise that people involved in charities | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
and the organisations themselves are not just there as service providers | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
to deliver things, they also are a valuable source of information and | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
opinion that can inform many of our social policies. And I would say | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
that the Government may be, despite its support, has some bridges to | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
mend with the charitable sector in some areas of social policy, in | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
particular we have more than 60 disability organisations and | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
charities which are concerned about the Government's changes to | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
disability benefits, and contrast that with the situation in Scotland, | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
where the leading children's charities have actually praised the | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
Scottish Government in amending some of the regulations. Turning to the | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
Bill itself, there are some causes in the Bill where in many ways you | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
are bringing the situation in England and Wales into line with the | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
situation in Scotland. I think it was caused to that relates to the | :56:56. | :57:02. | |
time limit on -- Klaus two. These provisions apply in Scotland in more | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
or less the same way. Clause ten notes the criteria for qualification | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
of trustees -- disqualification. You are going a lot further than the | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
situation in Scotland. Our approach would be to let you get on with that | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
and see how it works out. I would like to gently remind the honourable | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
gentleman he frequently is using the word you. Actually, in the first | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
part of his speech, it was quite appropriate because he was in a way | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
referring to the chair. But when he is referring to the Government, it | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
is better to say the Government, not cover you, or the Minister, because | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
I will not take the blame as the chair. Tommy Sheppard. I stand | :57:48. | :57:55. | |
corrected,'s. Of course, sometimes I use the word you in the Scottish | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
vernacular to apply one. But I will try to refer to the Government. Some | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
causes were you are bringing the situation into line somewhere you go | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
further, and it would our intention to wait and see. There is a review | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
and discussion underway in Scotland as well, which has come about in | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
part because of the discussion that has taken place in England and | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
Wales. Our main concern though would be on the whole area of the funding | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
regulation. The regulations surrounding the ability of charities | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
to raise money. Certainly the Scottish Council for Voluntary | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
Organisations has expressed concern that the high profile cases in | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
English charities about misuse of funds and in appropriate ways of | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
raising funds actually will have an effect on charities in Scotland, | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
even though they are not part of the same regulatory framework, because | :58:50. | :58:51. | |
people will generally think that they will be tarred with the same | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
brush, effectively. So there is a concern. We see no great move at the | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
moment to change the funding regulation. We have essentially a | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
self regulatory way of charitable fundraising regulation. And we | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
probably would want to continue with that. But what I would say is that a | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
discussion is underway in Scotland involving the charitable sector, and | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
we are determined that whatever happens it will be something that is | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
arrived at as a method of agreement, and the charity sector | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
itself will be involved. I think it is a matter of debate as to whether | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
or not we want to continue with self-regulation, or whether we see a | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
role for the Government being more directly involved. Oviedo, ministers | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
here have taken the view that they wish the Government to be more | :59:38. | :59:44. | |
directly involved -- obviously. We will watch that with interest. And | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
we wish you very well in your endeavours to improve the regulation | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
of charities in England and Wales. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
am delighted to be able to speak today on this very important Bill, | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
which I believe strengthens the governance and attacks are | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
charities. Charities play an extremely -- protect such churches. | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
They play an extremely important role, and we believe we are stronger | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
for them. We would be poorer as a nation if we did not have our | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
amazing charities. It is the hundreds of thousands of generous | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
volunteers that really make a difference. 41% of people have | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
reported taking part in volunteering at the last year. That is a massive | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
21 million people across the UK. In fact, only three weeks ago, every | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
member of my staff took days holiday and spent it following two in across | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
the constituency as part of the inaugural volunteering day. When my | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
staff volunteered at the homeless charity, I will talk more about that | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
later. And then went on to help of street collections for Children in | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Need. Another volunteered at a church food bank, and helped serve | :00:59. | :01:07. | |
two course lunch organised by a committee, which I thought was noble | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
of her. A third member of my staff helped up the local hospice and | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
joined tree top Garden club, that is a garden club which has just been | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
awarded the hospice UK Garden of the year, so we are very proud of that | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
award. And my senior caseworker sent the day at direct help and advice, | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
which has just been awarded big lottery funding. Of course, I did | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
some volunteering, too. I visited a local church to find out more about | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
their outreach community projects. One of these was chair based | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
exercises, which was a lot more energetic than it sounds. This | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
offered more than just an exercise, it offered a chat over a cup of tea | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
at the end of the session, and therefore it provided social | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
inclusion, as well. My whole team really enjoyed our day, and we | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
decided to make it an annual event, and we are really looking forward to | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
next year's are awash volunteering day, working with even more local | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
charities -- Erawan Shrine I am grateful to my honourable friend. | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
Would she agree with me that in terms of charitable giving and | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
volunteering, it is not just the giving but also what we as | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
individuals, when we volunteer, when we give we also gained so much more | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
from it, often in terms of the experience, getting to know | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
different people. I thank my honourable friend for that | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
intervention, and she is completely right. We have both experienced that | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
with our time volunteering in Rwanda as part of our social action there, | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
when we went we thought that we were going to give, but we learned so | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
much, we benefited so much from that experience. Whether it is something | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
of our social action there, when we went we thought that we were going | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
to give, but we learned so much, we benefited so much from that | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
experience. Whether it is something overseas or something but we learned | :02:58. | :02:59. | |
so much, we benefited so much from that experience. Whether it is | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
something overseas or something in R.N. Constituency, I know I feel | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
very humble every time I go to a charity. -- our own constituency. We | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
met on a charity volunteers -- other charity volunteers. Trustees play a | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
very important role within the charity. In the past, I have been a | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
trustee for two different charities. Before being appointed as a trustee | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
on both occasions I went through a selection process and was put under | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
scrutiny. It is only right, as trustees do hold very responsible | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
roles. And sadly, we have heard some bad news stories recently, | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
incidences where trustees may not have been quite as group Eulas as | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
they should. This should not happen, as it reflects Bradley -- badly and | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
undeservedly on charities across the board, even though they weren't | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
involved. That is why this Bill aims to strengthen the governance, and | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
gives more powers to the Charity Commission, to remove inappropriate | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
trustees. I think my honourable friend mentioned this as well. The | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
occurrence of regulatory abuse in charities is rare, as you pointed | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
out, but it is vital that measures are in place to ensure the public | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
and many charity volunteers do not lose confidence when incidences like | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
that do happen. Another aspect of the Bill is to protect members of | :04:16. | :04:23. | |
the public from the unscrupulous and unrelenting fundraisers. Once again, | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
there have been disturbing stories in the media recently, which have | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
ended up reflecting badly on every charity, and so many are just not | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
involved in this sort of procedure. I thank the honourable lady | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
forgiving way. Will she also agree, chugging also puts people off | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
donating, particularly when we hear the sort of fees they receive from | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
the donations they collect from public? I thank my honourable friend | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
for that intervention completely agree. We see so many people on the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
streets, and you do avoid them. I think that affects the local | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
shopkeepers as well, people get a bit fearful of what they are going | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
to find on the High Street. But it also reflects in another way, in | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
fact, my parents in their later years stopped donating to charities | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
when those donations were traceable in anyway. This was a result of | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
making one donation, and then getting phone call after phone call, | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
trying to persuade them to set up direct debits. My parents were | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
subject to just a fraction of the pressure at Olive Cook suffered, | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
which ended in such an awful tragedy. With 44% of adults | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
reportedly giving money to charitable causes every month, it is | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
so important that donors feel they can make those donations freely, and | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
also that their donation is being spent wisely. And I believe this | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
Bill does both. Of course, our small local charities do not employ | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
third-party professional fundraisers, but have to use their | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
ingenuity to raise their funds. Members of this House have talked | :06:02. | :06:10. | |
before about fundraising events at my local hospice. It is called Tree | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
top writes amazing care in the local community. I have awarded prizes at | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
their dog show, and taken part in a sponsored bike ride, taking in all | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
their charity shops across Derbyshire, and I did that on a | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
tandem. There is always something happening across my constituency, | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
somewhere there a charity events going on. Last Saturday on went the | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Christmas fair, organised by a group of friends from the Community | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
Hospital. When I got there I was delighted not just to see Father | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
Christmas but also to seek there was a stall, as I knew that last | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
Christmas they had been selling Christmas cakes that were made | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
locally and were really tasty, and they have those cakes there again. | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
It saved me trying to find the time, rather belatedly, to make my | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
Christmas cake. At the Long Eaton Christmas lights switch on last | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
Thursday, I was able to win on the Scouts' tombola, but every ticket | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
was a winner! And also to buy some handmade Christmas tree decorations | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
from the W Y stall. These make fantastic contributions to my local | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
area, and it is much richer as a result. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
I did say I would come back to the trust, which is more than just a | :07:26. | :07:35. | |
charity for homeless young man. It would provide the ideal vehicle for | :07:36. | :07:45. | |
this charity. It would help the German move on further with their | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
lives. As my right honourable friend come of the Minister, said, social | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
investment is the way of the future. I'm delighted it forms part | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
of this Bill. Madame deputies bigger, I believe this Bill will | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
protect our many charities from an Scougall is behaviour and so | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
maintain the confidence of the public, the confidence of the many | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
donors and the confidence of the volunteers as well as those employed | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
by the charities. I would like to ensure at committee stage that this | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
in no way... That local charities will be penalised in no way as | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
result of the changes. I like the way it provides a mechanism to | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
enable charities to enable social investments that can be of great | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
benefit to those they serve. I'm delighted to have been able to speak | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
in support of this Bill today, with my reservation of its impact on | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
small charities such as the ones I have talked about today. | :08:52. | :09:04. | |
It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate on the Charities | :09:05. | :09:13. | |
(Protection and Social Investment) Bill. Just a viewpoint on this. | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
People do welcome the fact that the Government is taking action to | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
prevent people who are unfit to become charity trustees becoming so | :09:25. | :09:34. | |
for effectively. There are just a view aspects of detail. I think | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
there is widespread agreement across the voluntary sector and the general | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
public, very much recognising what the honourable lady said. The | :09:45. | :10:00. | |
problem with predatory fundraising. There is a fundraising preference | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
service which will be very important indeed. It is worth bearing in mind | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
that across England and Wales, there are 943,000 trustees. I think we in | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
this House bear some responsibility for making sure we don't scare them | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
to death with regulation. The bulk of charities in this country, they | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
are not like Kids Company, who appeared to have got away with a | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
remarkable amount, we're talking about people who give up their time | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
on management, committees... They often don't have much time to give | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
up. We don't often do that well in terms of diversity of trustees will | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
stop the average age is 57 and only about one in 200 was between the | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
ages of 16 and 24. I am rather reluctant that if we do anything | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
that scares too many off. Having said that, there is a case that we | :10:58. | :11:06. | |
come back to what Lodge Hodgson -- Lord Hodgson suggested 80 years ago, | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
in terms of time-limits for larger charities. It would be ridiculous | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
for the village will committee and many small management groups. That | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
is something I hope could be considered at some time as the Bill | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
is going through. Just a couple of other small points. In clause one, | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
about the official warnings by the commission. We know from that, and I | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
know the points were raised on that by other members, that it gives the | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
commission and absolute discretion to publish a warning to a wide | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
audience. But charities depend heavily on funding and reputation | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
matters. I fear, if there is no real right to appeal against a warning, | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
and no minimum notice period given, I think that is something that needs | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
to be looked at. Clause 11, with the power to disqualify from being a | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
trustee, I think the issue here really is about clarity because I | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
think we agree in principle that that power, if there is genuine | :12:24. | :12:31. | |
abuse, is important. There is an issue where there is a clear case | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
and in terms of the amount of discretion, is that two white? Many | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
of us would agree it should be defined more clearly. Of course, the | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
issue of past behaviour is a point that the honourable member for | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
Congleton raised in her extensive speech. I would say this is a | :12:54. | :13:00. | |
welcome Bill. It is part of looking at how charities develop in a modern | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
world. Also, we have got to make sure that we are a bit careful. It | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
is so easy for us to add new regulations and really frightened | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
charities, especially smaller charities, from doing the work they | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
do. Often charities start off very small. I think of the charity in my | :13:22. | :13:30. | |
constituency, it started very small but has now become a | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
state-of-the-art charity working with children and young people with | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
autism. It often begins little acorns but we must not smother those | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
with too many regulations. I'm not sure if you can smuggle regulations, | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
but if you can I don't think you should. I broadly welcome this but | :13:47. | :13:55. | |
we do need to look at some of those issues. The Government did that very | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
much so in the last Parliament, as we discussed at committee stage, the | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
small charitable donations Bill, and changes were made. I very much hope | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
that some of these debates might be had at a later stage. | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
It is an absolute pleasure and a privilege to stand here today and | :14:18. | :14:26. | |
speak to this Charities Bill. Across the country, charities do | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
magnificent work, a national and local level. Sitting on the Green | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
benches, we have been listening to some fantastic examples from my | :14:34. | :14:44. | |
honourable friends. Some really fantastic examples. Some very | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
inspirational examples of the work that goes on up and down the breadth | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
of our country. In the days when I used to run half marathons, like the | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
Great North Run, rubbing their own just running from my office to this | :14:59. | :15:07. | |
chamber or to the voting lobby, I was always oppressed by the number | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
of runners, the breadth of charities representative and the generosity | :15:13. | :15:14. | |
and support of the public. I was often disheartened when somebody in | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
fancy dress ran past me at a faster speed, but you cannot have | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
everything. In Mike stitcher and see, I think of some of our local | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
charities. One in particular, Rosie's Helping Hands, it was set up | :15:34. | :15:43. | |
to help them deal with the loss of a daughter. They hold numerous events | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
including a charitable walk. The money that they raise goes into | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
helping children and young people in our local community. We also have | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
many local branches of some of the big national charities. I think of | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
the Royal British Legion, our local branches do so much to raise | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
awareness and raise funds for this incredibly important charity that | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
supports the Armed Forces veterans. In one of my villagers, they managed | :16:16. | :16:24. | |
to ink courage -- encourage the entire community to knit bobbies in | :16:25. | :16:32. | |
advance of Remembrance Sunday. To see these puppies all over the | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
clocktower in remembrance, that is a vital reminder of why the charitable | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
sector is so important. Do my honourable friend 's agree that it | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
is partly fundraising and also the feel-good factor that is created in | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
communities like you have just described? I could not agree more. I | :16:49. | :16:56. | |
had to get my knitting needles out and learn how to knit again. I | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
probably dropped several! I did my bit, as did everybody else. To see | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
the way that unity came together, and that sense of working together | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
and having a bit of fun for an incredible you worthwhile cause. To | :17:12. | :17:21. | |
me, charities play an important part in our local communities, dividing | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
something over and above what the public sector provides. It is often | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
these small things that make a big difference to the lives of | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
individual people and their families. Through my involvement, | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
Madam to the Speaker, with social action projects over the years, I | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
have been fortunate to get to know many of the charities both in the UK | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
and overseas. There are members of this chamber involved in projects in | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
Rwanda, working with charities over there. In recent weeks, as some of | :17:58. | :18:04. | |
you in this chamber will know, I have a private member 's Bill going | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
through this place to help Great Ormond Street hospital. I had a | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
great measure of visiting the husband to and seeing the work -- | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
the hospital and seeing the work they do with patients there. They | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
are involved with, there is a chapel. They do a huge at the | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
paediatric research. That would not be possible if not for the role of | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
the charity and the people involved with that. Sadly, Madam Deputy | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
Speaker, the results of high-profile crises can so often damaged the | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
trust in charities. Therefore I think it is really important that we | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
do all we can to maintain and strengthen the trust of charities. | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
That is demonstrated in this Bill. It demonstrates the importance of | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
having an effective charity regulator. I will be supporting the | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
Bill because it brings forward provisions that include providing | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
stronger protections for charities in England and Wales. It also | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
includes equipping the charities commission with strengthened powers | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
to tackle abuse more effectively and efficiently. I thank the honourable | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
lady for giving way for so few has made some strong points in favour of | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
this Bill. To keep the flow of funds coming in from the public and from | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
donors, it is vital that the abuse is not possible and the public has | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
covered is that there is a mechanism to tackle it? Trust and confidence | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
is critical. That is why I believe it is about taking or being ever | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
take robust but proportionate action where serious mismanagement occurs. | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
It is about maintaining and strengthening trust in this vital | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
set. To enable all charities, with a large or small, to continue to do | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
the work they do. I would make one play, to ensure that throughout this | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
Bill, the smaller charities are not as proportionately affected by any | :20:18. | :20:25. | |
bureaucracy or to which legislation. In my opinion, it doesn't matter | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
whether you are a small charity or a large charity, they have so much to | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
give to our country, to our society, to our communities, so I will be | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
doing everything I can to get them the support they deserve. | :20:42. | :20:50. | |
I really wanted to speak briefly in today's debate to welcome this | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
Bill, which I think is much needed and very sensible reform from the | :20:57. | :20:58. | |
Government. I'm delighted they brought it forward. I speak as | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
someone who practised as a solicitor for several years before entering | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
this place. In doing so, I practised corporate governance in other areas. | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
We have all come to see in the last year that the governance of | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
charities is in crisis. That is affecting all charities. The large | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
charities are infecting the small charities, and that is why it is so | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
important for this House to act because, as has Audie been said by | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
mothers on all sides, we all support the charities in our | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
constituencies. We have given to them or acted as trustees was to be | :21:39. | :21:48. | |
want to see public increased. Public confidence has been knocked this | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
yet. Charities are different to many other parts of our society. When | :21:55. | :22:04. | |
large businesses get knocked by scandals, the public toast was the | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
little guys and public confidence increases. If there is a horse meat | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
scandal at Tesco, we all go to the local butchers and sales rise. | :22:13. | :22:20. | |
Charity seem to have the inverse was that if big charities get hit by | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
scandal, the little guys suffer as well. It is essential that we | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
protect the small charities, but thousands of excellent small | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
charities that as men was apartment -- that as members of parliament we | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
get to know better than other members of society. It is for them | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
but we have to ensure that the larger charities have the highest | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
quality of governance. That really comes down to trustees. | :22:44. | :22:50. | |
It has been a torrid year in many respects towards how those large | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
charities have behaved, whether it has been scandals of high salaries | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
of chief executives and management teams of chief executives and | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
management team to of politicisation, or, above all, it | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
has been the question of fund raising, inappropriate use of | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
fundraisers on our high streets, and of course the tragic case of Olive | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
Cook that we have heard about. With pleasure. I thank the honourable | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
gentleman forgiving way, he is making a very strong speech. Part of | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
it is about the public having confidence of how much of their | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
pound is going to the good work, the good cause, particularly when | :23:30. | :23:31. | |
sometimes some of the larger charities, there have been issues of | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
how much is going on overheads and administration. That is a very | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
strong point, and I want to come onto that, how we can ensure proper | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
financial management of charities, and that cuts in both directions in | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
terms of how they governed themselves and what percentage of | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
their organisation and resources are deployed on central management. The | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
last and of course most prominent has been the Kids Company scandal, | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
which has raised all manner of questions about the governance of | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
our most high profile and largest charities,, particularly their | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
capacity to handle the finances appropriately. I don't want to dwell | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
on Kids Company, it is an outlier, but it has done huge damage to other | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
charities, and that is why those who have been at the heart of it, and | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
indeed Government who have worked with Kids Company, has to take it | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
seriously, because it is damaging all of our charities throughout the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
country, and I think the powers contained in this Bill will be | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
tested as to whether, when Barack Kids Company scandals in the future, | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
they enable us to prevent those ineffective and inappropriate | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
trustees to be barred from acting as trustees -- when there are Kids | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
Company scandals. Thank you forgiving way. Isn't this at the | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
heart of the matter, the reality is that the vast majority of people who | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
work, volunteer, or have leadership positions in charities across the | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
UK, generally do the right thing in their day-to-day activities, but | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
what we need to do with this Bill and other initiatives is to try and | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
get that right balance between the governance and allowing them to get | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
on with doing the things they really want to do on a daily basis. My | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
honourable friend make the point perfectly. It is important to | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
remember that the core activities of our territories are really -- rarely | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
questioned. They are usually performed incredibly well, | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
sensitively and appropriately. The scandals and disappointments tend to | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
come from the way the operation of other charities occurs, and that is | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
why it is incredibly important that trustees playing their full role in | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
managing those organisations, scrutinising and supporting them, as | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
do the directors, the nonexecutive directors of our companies. And so | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
the role of a trustee has to be at the heart of the matter. And here | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
the new Bill is important, the power to bar individuals was not | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
appropriate to be trustees, and who bring charities into disrepute is | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
incredibly important. I would be interested to know from the Minister | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
how many trustees he believes that would apply to in an average year. | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
Is this going to have a marginal difference, or is it going to have a | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
more significant one? And preventing trustees from just moving on from | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
damaging an organisation and then being able to continue in many | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
others. We all know that many people, many good people, are | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
trustees of several charities, and so inevitably the bad apples, too, | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
are involved in many charities, and we want to ensure that they cannot | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
just continue to do so. The power to issue warnings to charities I think | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
is important of those charities consider that there actions, the | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
Charity Commission considers that their actions amount to misconduct | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
or mismanagement. Of course that must be done proportionately, and | :26:53. | :26:58. | |
the Charity Commission has not always acted proportionally in other | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
issues, as we heard from the honourable member in the issue of | :27:02. | :27:10. | |
the Plymouth Brethren, which I would have supported the campaign on. Many | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
involved in the third sector have expressed concern that the Bill | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
gives the Commission the benefit of the doubt. But I think bearing in | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
mind the portents of raising public trust in our charities -- the | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
importance. I think it is essential now that we have a strong regulator | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
that has the tools to act, and this Bill does provide that. I do have | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
some questions on the roles of trustees, or thoughts for the | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
Minister. The first one really is that it is absolutely essential, | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
Kids Company showbiz, and it sounds a very simple point to make, it is | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
obvious is essential -- Kids Company is showed this. A Board of Trustees | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
must contain the range of expertise. That within the guidance of the | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
charity committee, but clearly it doesn't would happen. In particular, | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
the right range of financial expertise. When charities reach a | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
certain size, they are, like larger companies, they would qualify for | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
being in the FTSE 250, these are huge organisations, they require | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
individuals with genuine financial expertise and knowledge of financial | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
controls, so that they can scrutinise the organisation and hold | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
it to account. I hear what the honourable member was saying. My | :28:25. | :28:33. | |
concern is that, and the honourable lady also referred to this, possible | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
regulations for larger charities. My concern is how that is divide, my | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
concern is that within that, one might bring in the smaller | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
charities. Does the honourable member not share my concern of the | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
difficulty of attracting officers to the role of, in particular, as my | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
experience has shown, being treasurer of a charitable | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
organisation? I do share that concern. We all know in other | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
organisations we are involved in how difficult it can be to find good | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
people, particularly as it has been said, younger people to come forward | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
and act as trustees. Incidentally, the charity sector is a lot more | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
diverse than corporate sector. I think about 40% of charity trustees | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
are women, which is not the same for the corporate sector. But it is | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
important that we don't put off people from getting involved in | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
this. It may be that the time has come that one size fits all doesn't | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
work, and largest charities, who are really the upholders of public trust | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
and confidence in charitable giving more generally, they are very large | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
and we are encouraging charities to merge and get larger, that those | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
charities should be subject to far greater scrutiny and a different | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
regime from the small ones that we all know in our constituencies and | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
want to see Fry. -- thrive. For the very small charities, there may be | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
needs to be some sort of Charity Commission calls that would be | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
trustee can go on to ensure that they do have the necessary | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
understanding of the role will quiet -- course. This is a point that I | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
wanted to make in a moment. By the Charity Commission's own reckoning, | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
actually knowledge of governments, rules and best practice is quite | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
limited amongst our trustees -- governance. I don't blame them, they | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
are busy people and they are doing this voluntarily and we want to | :30:26. | :30:27. | |
encourage that. But knowledge is quite limited, and awareness of some | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
of the guidance but out, like for example CC three, which is the | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
essential trustee guide, knowledge of that is quite modest. The surveys | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
that the Charity Commission have put out to trustees of both larger and | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
smaller charities suggest that actually basic functions of being a | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
trustee or not widely known by our trustees. So anything the Charity | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
Commission can do to boost awareness, without putting off our | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
trustees, is absolutely essential and I would like to see the Charity | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
Commission, I know because I have spoken to them, they do take that | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
seriously, and they have got to do something to be is that awareness | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
and support trustees in a way that strikes the right balance between | :31:08. | :31:14. | |
not deterring people and making sure they know what they are supposed to | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
do -- to boast that awareness. It is actually quite scary how few | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
trustees understand they're responsible it is, particular in | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
terms of finance. I thank the Judd forgiving way, he has been extremely | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
generous with his time. -- honourable gentleman. Is it | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
important that anybody who wants what's best for their community to | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
support the good cause doesn't feel excluded from being a trustee | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
because he doesn't have qualifications, but it is then | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
important that the Charity Commission helps build the skills | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
that they need, because I wouldn't want it to be a graduate only | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
sector? That is important, but I do come back to our biggest charities, | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
these are major organisations dealing with hundreds of millions of | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
pounds of not just the public's money that the taxpayer's money, and | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
some of them, as I say, I am nervous to dwell on Kids Company, but the | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
trustees had very little relevant expertise, one was a celebrity | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
hairdresser, nothing wrong with that, but I don't like that person | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
necessarily to have expertise of running a major multinational | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
business as Kids Company had become. So I think it is absolutely is | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
ensure that these organisations step up and appropriate trustees, and I | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
would like to see this Bill on the Government push our biggest | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
charities to have those individuals. I never charities are required to | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
have an annual return to confirm whether or not they have renewed | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
their financial controls, clearly that is an important lesson coming | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
out of recent scandals, anything we can do to be that up without tearing | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
the little guys is absolutely essential. -- to beef that up. | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
Unlike companies, most trustees do not meet in mixed board meetings | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
with their management, so the interplay between the two is often | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
limited. Those trustees who take their role mysteriously and work | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
hard at it no doubt get to know the senior management -- take their role | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
seriously. But others don't, and often rely, crucially of course, on | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
the chief executive, who may be, as we have seen in other scandals, and | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
overbearing founder who might be incredibly charismatic and powerful | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
as knowledgeable about your browser is, but it is difficult scrutinise, | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
to stretch them and to hold them into account. That would be | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
something that would be important, larger charities darted to have | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
mixed board meetings between executive and nonexecutive | :33:37. | :33:38. | |
directors. I would like the Government to think about the role | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
of overbearing founders, because that is an incredibly important | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
issue, and anybody who is involved in a charitable sector sees that, | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
where somebody who may be a brilliant individual founds a | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
charity, and then it really gets out of control. They are extremely | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
difficult to scrutinise, and pats the time comes where they should | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
step aside or hand over to somebody else -- perhaps the time comes. | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
Maybe it would be appropriate that these individuals have term limits, | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
as you would have for the chairman of a public company, where at the | :34:08. | :34:15. | |
end of term they have to go through a rigorous procedure to be | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
reappointed. Lastly I want to raise conflict-of-interest. We see at a | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
number of even a number of even of our are riddled with | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
conflict-of-interest. Trustees have friends and relatives employed in | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
the organisation, trustees sometimes get benefits which are not | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
appropriate. I don't think the Bill particular speaks about, and that is | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
something that does a lot of damage to undermine confidence in the | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
charitable sector last point I want to make is whether the Minister | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
really believe that the Charity Commission has the capacity to | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
regulate the vast number of charities. We have thousands of | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
charities in this country, some are extremely complex organisations, as | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
we have seen. Does the Charity Commission actually have the | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
resources to do that? I suspect not, and many involved in the sector | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
believe it doesn't. Some of our most experienced TV executives now | :35:01. | :35:02. | |
believe that the time has come for some form of beefing up of the | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
Charity Commission through some form of self funding -- some of our most | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
experienced charity executives. They might contribute some money towards | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
ensuring that the wider sector has trust and confidence maintained, so | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
that the Charity Commission has the funding required to really see that | :35:21. | :35:23. | |
happen. I will close on that point, because I know the Minister wants to | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
speak. In conclusion, trustees are absolutely essential, and the | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
trustees of our biggest charities are letting down the entire sector. | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
Scandals like his company matter, because they are harming the ball | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
charities, they are the lifeblood of charitable giving, -- the small | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
charities. I certainly take huge pleasure in getting to know and | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
working with small charities, and those who hold the position is in | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
big organisations need to start up and behave as if they were the | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
nonexecutive directors of a large in the nonexecutive directors of a | :35:57. | :35:57. | |
large portable organisation that they are. Louise Haig. Thank you, | :35:58. | :36:05. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. Today is my first time at the dispatch box | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
responding to a Bill, so may I say it is a pleasure to listen to learn | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
it contributions of honourable members of both sides of the House. | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
I would have liked a few more honourable friends behind me today, | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
but I can assure the House that it is not a signal of disinterest from | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
these benchers, but our wholehearted support to the objectives of the | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
Government in this Bill. This has been an important and helpful | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
debate, as I would like to congratulate all members who have | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
participated, and everybody who has been involved in getting the Bill to | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
this place, particularly our colleagues in the other place. We | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
have had a small number of contributions, but fortunately this | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
debate has been defined by its quality, not its quantity. The | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
honourable lady, who brings extensive experience in the sector, | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
spoke about the difficulties in in courage in trustees to charities, | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
concerns around giving the Charity Commission is the power of judgment | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
of a power trustees who has committed misconduct ample warning | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
notice, risking Amish to trustees' predation. | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
The honourable gentleman spoke about how it could not be viewed in a | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
vacuum and charities are being asked to do more for less as the cuts bite | :37:20. | :37:27. | |
further. The honourable lady paid tribute to the volunteers in her | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
constituency, as we all do across all of our constituencies. It | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
fulfils a much needed demand. I will not put your patients to test by | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
listing all of those in my constituency. The honourable member | :37:46. | :37:54. | |
spoke about the fundraising preference service. The honourable | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
lady spoke about her own experience of volunteering. The impact of small | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
charities in her own constituency and her own private memos Bill in | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
supporting the renowned fantastic work of Great Ormond Street. The | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
honourable gentleman for Newark, a former governors practitioner spoke | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
about how we must make sure that larger Chad -- smaller charities | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
must not pay the price for larger charities misbehaving. He has said | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
that kids charity is an outlier at best. The blaze -- today's debate | :38:33. | :38:44. | |
has allowed... We know the special role charities play in Agassi juicy | :38:45. | :38:52. | |
-- in our constituencies and in society as a whole. Bretonsdonate | :38:53. | :39:01. | |
what they can do the causes close to the heart or to those in need in the | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
committee around them. Charities are also the vehicle by which many of us | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
can try to make a difference to the committees in which we live. The | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
estimate is that nearly three quarters of us do some form of work | :39:15. | :39:23. | |
for charities each year. Only 1 million trustees who give their time | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
to make our society a kinder and more interesting place, they are the | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
best of Britain. We know that charities have a good deal of | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
goodwill and support. As my honourable friend said, they support | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
our honourable, how sick and elderly and give the chance to save lives. | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
It is right that charities and their regulator have the right powers when | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
misconduct occurs. When wrongdoing does occur, the regulator must we | :39:59. | :40:09. | |
able to take action. It is simply common sense to not appoint | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
inappropriate people as trustees. As mothers across the House know, the | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
commission already has a wide range of compliance and enabling powers | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
but there are underlying weaknesses, including a limit on the ability to | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
tackle abuse in charities. The powers were not powers you would | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
expect a regulator to hold. They did not go far enough, so we welcome the | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
strengthening of those powers. In securing these, we will enable the | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
Charity Commission to work more effectively. We know it is of utmost | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
importance to find the balance between good governance, which gives | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
people confidence, while ensuring the charities are free to do what | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
they do best. They will build a better society, to innovate, to | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
respond to the challenges of today and tomorrow and to deliver value | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
for money. As we have heard, the vast majority of charities and | :41:13. | :41:20. | |
trustees acted in the best interest of their community. A few | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
unscrupulous individuals undermine confidence in the whole sector. We | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
welcome the new powers to disqualify trustees. We would not be an | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
effective opposition if we did not point out areas of room for | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
improvement. We are disappointed that the Government will seek to | :41:41. | :41:42. | |
overrule the Other Place in removing clause nine. It is a vital and | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
Madrid that protects charities from arbitrary rulings asking them to | :41:48. | :41:58. | |
dispose of completions. -- of contributions. Other honourable | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
members have made good points on fundraising, the very important | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
protection of minority views, something that we in this House | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
should hold so dear, and insuring the balance between big elation and | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
enabling charities to do good in their communities. I know the | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
Minister will have been listening closely so that we can improve this | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
Bill together at committee stage on across party basis. We are happy to | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
support this Bill through a second reading. | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
Can I thank all the honourable members for their excellent | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
contributions to this debate. These are clearly issues that are | :42:40. | :42:41. | |
important to them and their constituents. Can also my welcome | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
and congratulations to the member for Sheffield Healy on her first | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
outing at the dispatch box. It will be the first of many. It is clear | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
the House has great respect and admiration for the good work | :42:57. | :42:58. | |
currently being done by charities throughout the UK. I also know there | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
is much experience and expertise of charities and voluntary amongst | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
honourable members, as was demonstrated during some of the | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
speeches today. There is or so a strong desire to protect the | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
privileged position that charities hold in the eyes of the public, the | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
mistreated through the latest world having index, which is bound Britain | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
to be the most generous nation in Europe. We have a strong, diverse | :43:22. | :43:29. | |
and growing charity sector. Over the period of the last Parliament, the | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
number of registered charities in England and Wales has increased by | :43:33. | :43:39. | |
over 2000, to 106 to 5000. Their combined income has grown by 10 | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
billion and is just short of ?70 billion a year. Before I guess the | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
points that have been raised by a number of honourable members today, | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
I believe it is also worth the time to echo a point that has been made | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
throughout this debate. The vast majority of charities in this | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
country do excellent work and are run by good, honest and generous | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
people. They wish to hope those most in need and make the world a better | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
place. I particularly want to pay tribute to charity trustees without | :44:14. | :44:20. | |
whose unpaid effort, there would be no charity sector. For their | :44:21. | :44:22. | |
selfless passion and commitment, they have my respect and my sincere | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
thanks. However, their good work is threatened by a small minority who | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
seek to abuse charitable status for their own ends. This Bill will help | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
the independent regulator take robust action against that small | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
minority and, by doing so, will reinforce public trust and | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
confidence and protect the reputation of charities as a whole. | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
The powers in the Bill have brought support from the charitable sector | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
and indeed the public. And the Charity Commission has been involved | :44:58. | :44:59. | |
throughout the process of developing these proposals. They have also been | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
subjected to public consultation and preach legislative scrutiny, both of | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
which helped reform and refine the powers. Some have argued that the | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
Bill did Charity Commission too much power, or some other powers are too | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
broad. I would say that the Bill seeks to achieve a balance. The new | :45:25. | :45:33. | |
commission is to be broad enough to useful, too narrow and they could be | :45:34. | :45:39. | |
exported by the speakers. The charities need to know the | :45:40. | :45:41. | |
circumstances when the commission will use its powers. I think this | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
Bill achieves the right balance but I would also like to draw honourable | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
members' attention to a couple of safeguards that will exist. The | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
Charity Commission is subject to a general Judy under section 16 of the | :45:57. | :46:05. | |
charities act, 2011. This means that the committee must be satisfied that | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
the execution of its powers will be in line with the principles of best | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
regulatory prep is. Including that it is proportionate, accountable, | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
consistent, transparent and targeted only at cases in which action is | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
needed. Would the Minister give way? Of course. It is a pity that | :46:24. | :46:32. | |
was not invoked with the whole interpretation of public benefit was | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
being debated and that the Charity Commission did not refer themselves | :46:37. | :46:38. | |
back to that then. With the Minister address my concerns during the | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
course of his speech about the fact that this Bill could be enforced | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
before there is a clear definition of nonviolent exhume is, bearing in | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
mind that the Government's strategy says it would give the commission | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
powers to disqualify trustees for wide reasons including past | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
conduct, including a variety of abuses that the commission things | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
has occurred a victory mizzen, which in the same strategy includes | :47:11. | :47:23. | |
nonviolent exhume is in question? -- nonviolent extremism? She raises | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
some important issues and I do intend to deal with those issues in | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
full. If I can, as she has asked, I will deal with the religion one | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
first. Religious charities do play a hugely important role in our public | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
life. Over 25% average to charities have a religious purpose -- 25% of | :47:49. | :47:59. | |
registered charities. There is no question at all that that status is | :48:00. | :48:10. | |
under threat at all. All of the religious charities have no | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
difficulty at all in devastating the public benefit. She did raised the | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
issues of the Plymouth have macro brethren, that was an exception, and | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
that was resolved ultimately in a sensible way even though it did take | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
too long. I will come back to some of the other issues she raised later | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
on in my comments. All of the proposed commission | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
powers in the Bill have a right of appeal. In most cases, to the | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
Charity Tribunal, ensuring there is in independent judicial oversight of | :48:43. | :48:51. | |
the powers. Has also some question around the rehabilitation of | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
offenders. The Government believes that individuals with such serious | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
conviction should not be able to hold the position of charity | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
trustees, and have control over charitable funds and fundraising | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
activities, until those convictions are spent for a waiver from the | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
disco of obtained from the commission. The way the regime | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
exists to qualify individuals who wish to be a trustee to apply for | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
bed school of patient to be overturned. An application would be | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
considered on a case-by-case basis and they would take into account the | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
nature and seriousness of the conduct that has resulted in the | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
conviction and consequent job discoloured vocation. A decision of | :49:41. | :49:52. | |
the commission could be referred to the tribunal, which would look at it | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
completely afresh. That is fair as it protects charities and | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
individuals who resent a known risk while providing for the | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
rehabilitation of offenders and their way back into trusteeship on a | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
case-by-case basis. People have also raised concerns about the warning | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
power and that there is no right of appeal to the tribunal. There is, of | :50:16. | :50:23. | |
course, a right of appeal which is judicial review. There is the same | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
position is now whether commission publishes its operational compliance | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
case reports into non-enquiry cases that have attracted public interest | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
and highlight important lessons for charity trustees. The Bill provides | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
for a period of ribs and a to be made in relation to an official | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
warning which the commission would be obliged to consider. There is | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
then the option of judicial review. We consider that proportionate. A | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
right to appeal, an official warning, could tie up the commission | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
in red tape, rendering the power impact go for its purpose. The last | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
thing we want to do is to give the Charity Commission powers that it | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
cannot use and for which it would be good for failing to exercise the | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
powers for several years hence. The joint committee that undertook three | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
legislative scrutiny agreed that with proper safeguards, judicial | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
review was the appropriate route for appeals. I will now turn to | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
fundraising. I was deeply disappointed to see the extent of | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
poor practice by large charities in relation to their fundraising, | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
widely exposed by the media earlier this year by the sad death of Olive | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
Cook. Since then, further damaging cases have come to light. Once | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
again, the reputation of charities was being put at risk are the | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
actions of a small minority. Public trust and confidence in charities | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
has not been this low since 2007. Charities are now ranked 11th in the | :51:58. | :52:05. | |
most trusted institutions was that only 48% of people said they trusted | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
charities. In response to the fundraising scandals, we acted | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
swiftly to amend the Bill in the Other Place to reinforce charity | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
trustees' responsible at sea for the fundraising. Calls 14 of the Bill | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
will encourage charities to exercise greater control and oversight over | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
those who fundraising for the organisation. It will ensure there | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
are proper processes for dealing with honourable people and generally | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
safeguard the public. Large charities will make this commitment | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
public through the charities' annual report so I can hold a charity to | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
account for the way it interacts with them. | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
I asked Stuart Etherington to conduct an independent review of how | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
fundraising regulation can be improved in order to safeguard from | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
rubble people with better respect to the public's wishes of how | :53:01. | :53:02. | |
fundraising regulation can be improved in order to safeguard from | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
rubble people with better respect to the public's wishes over how and | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
accepted the review's recommendations and I'm encouraging | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
the sector to move to make self-regulation work. I expect the | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
sector to fully back the new fundraising regulator, both | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
financially and through compliance with its moons. In the past few | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
weeks, I have announced that Lord Michael grade has been recruited as | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
chair of the new body and will set up the initial phase of operations. | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
I am confident that he is the right man to lead this important task, and | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
that the sector will unite behind him to address these urgent issues | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
and restore public trust in fundraising. The new regulator will | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
also host the fundraising preference service, a tool which will allow | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
people to opt out of receiving fundraising requests, and which will | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
stop charities wasting resources on approaching those who do not wish to | :54:02. | :54:09. | |
hear from them. A working group is currently being set up to establish | :54:10. | :54:11. | |
how the service will work in practice. No doubt in addition to a | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
simple reset button, there will be a small number of nuanced options | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
should people wish to only opt into certain charities. Crucially, it | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
will provide anybody with a way to get off charity contact lists, which | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
they no longer wish to be on. Charities need to demonstrate the | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
fundraising and self-regulation can work in the best interests of the | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
public. They will have the chance to do so at a summit tomorrow, where | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
the next steps for implementing better self-regulation will be | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
announced. I hope this will be a constructive and collaborative | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
meeting where charities showed their commitment to the new self regulator | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
and to meeting the public's expectations. Should they fail to do | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
so, I stand ready to step in to stave guard the trust in charities | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
-- to safeguard. For this purpose, I will be seeking to add two reserve | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
powers as part of the Charities Bill. One, to compel charities to | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
sign up to the new regulator, and a second to mandate the Charity | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
Commission with regulation, should the sector failed to rise to the | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
challenge. I also welcome the Charity Commission's revision of its | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
guidance for charity trustees on fundraising, which the Commission | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
has published today. This reminds trustees of their duties and | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
responsibilities in relation to fundraising, including the need to | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
protect the charities' predation and bat of the wider sector. And | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
finally, I would like to turn to social investment. I mentioned the | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
support that we give it in the Bill. As laid out, many of you will have | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
seen in the Autumn Statement, this governor back row has shown a strong | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
commitment in social investment -- Goffin. -- Government. The Charity | :55:52. | :55:59. | |
investment enables them to increase their sustainability by making | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
financial return, as well as furthering the purpose of the | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
charity. Whilst most charities can make social investment under the | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
current law, it can be very complex, and sometimes costly to do so. The | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
new social investment power of the charities and cause 15 was | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
recommended and drafted by the Law Commission to overcome that | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
complexity and reduce the cost of investment for charities. It was | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
widely supported on consultation. The UK has already recognised world | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
leading social investment with pioneering action by Government such | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
as setting up big society capital, as well as stipulating the use of | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
social impact bonds to deliver services to some of the most | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
disadvantaged in society through initiatives such as social outcomes | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
funds. With the power of social investment conferred on charities by | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
this Bill, we take another step forward in building sustainable | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
social investment ecosystems. Very briefly I will now turn to some of | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
the interventions and species that honourable members made. -- | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
speeches. My friend back River South West Wiltshire asked about the | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
transparency of direct debit fundraisers professional fundraisers | :57:15. | :57:17. | |
are already required to state how much they are paid when asking the | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
public to donate, but I would be happy to discuss this further at | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
committee stage. I was delighted to see the contribution from the SNP. I | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
believe the honourable member may well be setting a precedent and | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
English votes that the SNP will not be taking part in any other stages | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
of bills, and I hope that President will now stand. The honourable | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
friend for Erawan, thank you for a very uplifting speech and thinking | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
about the volunteering day, I hope it sets a precedent for other MPs. | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
Great to see that that is now going to become an annual process, and I | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
certainly wish that well. I thank the honourable member from Clywd | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
south for supporting the fundraising preference service, it is really | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
important that that works and works successfully for the sake of | :58:08. | :58:09. | |
fundraising going forward. I thank also my honourable friend for | :58:10. | :58:16. | |
Brownhills, who in gauge as with the wonderful story of one of the | :58:17. | :58:23. | |
villages knitting poppies -- who engaged us. That demonstrates the | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
value of civil society on the contributions of charities. She is | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
right when she says that small kindness can make a very big | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
difference. On the role of trustees and setting a maximum term under | :58:34. | :58:40. | |
statute, legislating for a maximum trustee term does not appeal for | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
several reasons. The evidence is that 50% of charities are carrying | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
at least one trustee vacancy. And we must be mindful that the trustee | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
role is a voluntary one. On the issue of the impact on small | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
charities, which was raised by my honourable friend as well, she does | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
make an important point about minimising regulation for small | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
charities. As did the honourable member for Clywd South, actually. We | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
are very keen to minimise the burden of regulation on small charities. | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
For example, the new reporting requirement on fundraising calls for | :59:20. | :59:22. | |
team will only apply to charities with income over ?1 million. -- | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
clause 14. The new fundraising self regulator will need to consider | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
exemptions for small charities for the fundraising preference service. | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
I thought my honourable friend the member of the Newark made a very | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
strong speech, which clearly set out how big charities are causing very | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
big concerns for some of the smaller charities across the country, and it | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
is certainly our intention in government to try and protect them. | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
Very quickly responding to some of the opposition concerns that were | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
raised about campaigning. Just to be clear, charities cannot engage in | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
party political campaigning, and where they undertake any other types | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
of campaigning to support their charitable purposes they must avoid | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
adverse perceptions of their independence and political | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
neutrality. In addition, they must not barking campaigning to such an | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
extent that this compromises their legal status as a charity -- they | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
must not embark. The Commission does provide very clear guidance of what | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
is and what is not permitted. It makes clear that charity organisers | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
of nonparty political campaigning can be a legitimate activity of a | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
charities, and sets out the general principles. There was a concern | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
about official warnings, and should the Commission be able to publish | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
official warnings. Charities exist for public benefit and depend on | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
public support, so there should be transparency and publication of | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
official warnings where the regulator considers it necessary to | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
intervene, unless there is a good reason not to publish those details | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
of those warnings. There should always be an opportunity go to make | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
representations about the factual accuracy of the statutory warning | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
before it is published, a process for representations is included in | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
the bell. There were some concerns about the official warnings on the | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
scope being too broad -- in the Bill. We consider that the scope is | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
right and clear under the Bill's provision of warning should be in | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
respect of a breach of statutory provision or breach of trust or | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
duty. Turning to my honourable friend four Congleton very quickly | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
before I conclude, her concern about extremism. Extremism or terrorist | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
abuse of charities of any kind is very rare indeed, but must be | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
addressed to protect public trust and confidence in charities. Whilst | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
it may not represent most of the Charity Commission's compliance | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
work, it does represent a very serious risk to public trust and | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
confidence. The proposed reforms in this Bill are not specifically | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
focused on counterterrorism or extremism. They would enable the | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
Commission to better tackle all types of abuse of charity. So the | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
Bill does not seek to define extremism, and nor should it. | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
Charities and their work can be an important protection against | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
extremism. No intention, we have absolutely no intention, as I have | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
said, of undermining freedom of religion or freedom of speech, and | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
the Bill has been certified as being compatible with the CHC. I'm going | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
to finish now because I know a lot of people want to get away from the | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
chamber today. I'm going to finish by saying, this Bill is about | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
protecting charities and safeguarding their place in the | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
public's minds. It is about ensuring charities will not fund raise in a | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
manner that will victimise the most fun rubble in our society. And it is | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
about giving charities -- vulnerable. Doing charities in new | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
way to utilise their assets. Charities rely on public trust and | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
confidence. Abuse, where it happens, must be rooted out. This has | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
support, 83% of the public and 92% of charities support new powers | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
being introduced for the Commission. Charities play a vital role in | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
communities, and this Bill aims to bolster their position in the | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
public's trust and help them to continue the good work that they | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
have been doing for hundreds of years, continuing our country's long | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
and rich tradition of charity. On that basis, I commend this Bill to | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
the House. The question is that the Bill be now read a second time. As | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
ayes have it, the ayes have it. Programme motion to be moved. The | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes habit. I beg | :04:13. | :04:20. | |
that this House to now adjourned. The question is that this House now | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
adjourned. Norman Lamb. Thank you very much,s. It is a great pleasure | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
to be able to raise a very important issue for debate -- Madam Deputy | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
Speaker. This is three hours earlier than expected, and it is good to see | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
the Minister taking his seat. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to raise an | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
issue of what I think is of profound importance. It is a practice that I | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
think is intolerable, but which carries an, every week of the year, | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
broke the everyday of the year. And that is the shunting of people | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
around the country -- probably every day of the year. Sometimes long | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
distance away from home, at a moment of mental-health prices. Typically, | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
the situation be that somebody, at a moment of acute crisis, would be | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
taken into hospital, but there would be no bed available for them. And so | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
they would be taken away somewhere else in the country. And there are | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
numerous stories of people sometimes being taken literally hundreds of | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
miles away from home, on a regular basis. This is a practice that would | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
never, ever be tolerated in physical health services. You can imagine | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
somebody with a stroke or a heart condition being taken by ambulance | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
and being told, I'm sorry, there is no room at the local hospital, we | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
are taking you to Cumbria, from Norfolk or something of that sort. | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
It would be an regarded as a scandal, so it doesn't happen, and | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
yet it happens every week of the year in mental health. It is what I | :06:04. | :06:06. | |
regard as a complete discrimination at the heart of our NHS, and it is | :06:07. | :06:14. | |
one of the very many examples of how people who suffer from acute mental | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
ill-health are disadvantaged by the system. This is incidentally, this | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
is no criticism of any individual government, this has always | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
happened, there has been a rise, which I will come into a little | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
well, but in very many ways, somebody suffering from mental | :06:34. | :06:35. | |
ill-health simply does not get the same right of access to treatment in | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
a moment of need somebody with physical problems. If any of us in | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
this chamber stopped and thought about it for a single moment we | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
would conclude that you can begin to justify that, and there has to be a | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
programme -- you cannot begin to justify that. We have touted | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
equality of access at the moment of need -- we have to have. | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
I congratulate my friends for securing this debate in an area | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
where he has done so much work. The title of this debate is out of area | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
mental health placements. Is there not also a huge problem in the vast | :07:14. | :07:24. | |
health board areas, where being in the countryside is a huge issue. It | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
meant that constituent of mine would have to travel 50 miles or be sent | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
50 miles away, not the most easiest travelling to rain, to the next | :07:36. | :07:44. | |
board. There is a problem in these great geographical areas. I'm not | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
asking him to come it on the issues of the Welsh National Health Service | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
but I would say it applies to England as well. I'm great will to | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
my friend for raising that Eddie makes an important point. I will | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
address this in more detail later but there is evidence of an | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
increased risk of suicide if you're treated a long way from home, if you | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
are away from family and friends, who will struggle to go and see you. | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
The idea of care as the home is incredibly important in mental | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
health. We should, incidentally, be seeking to be caring for people at | :08:20. | :08:27. | |
home, and not taken into hospital unless it absolutely cannot be | :08:28. | :08:29. | |
avoided. There are moments when it is necessary and, as far as | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
possible, there should be a place close to home. I am grateful. It is | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
not a central point of my honourable friend's debate, but does he agree | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
that one of the unacceptable outcomes of this has been the | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
increased use of the police and police cells for people to be held | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
overnight? That has been the reality of the situation in my constituency. | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
It is a shocking practice and, incidentally, I applaud my | :09:04. | :09:05. | |
honourable friend for the work he has done in his area on this, but | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
the idea of putting someone who is suffering an acute mental illness | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
into a police cell, which is defined in the legislation, unbelievably, as | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
a place of safety, is quite bizarre. It ought not to be tolerated in this | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
day and age. I'm pleased that the Government has indicated an | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
intention to legislate to, in effect, eradicate the problem, | :09:31. | :09:38. | |
completely for under 18 's and to make it an absolute exception for | :09:39. | :09:40. | |
adults will stop we managed to reduce the numbers in England by 50% | :09:41. | :09:47. | |
in the last two years. That was considerable progress. But we need | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
to go further than that and bring an end to an unacceptable practice. | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
Incidentally, it is interesting that where there is the local passion and | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
drive, amazing things are possible. In our capital City of London, | :10:02. | :10:16. | |
something around 20 people were put into police cells. In Sussex, the | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
novel was closer to 400. They can change practices and make people's | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
lives better. He is right to persist with this in Wales, just as I try to | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
do in England. I give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
and may I congratulate him for securing this debate and the work he | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
has done to bring this issue to the fore. A quick comment would be that | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
a police cell will be for someone who is charge of a crime, not for | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
someone who it is unwell. Some of it could be done with better | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
coordination. I had a case in my constituency where available to | :10:56. | :10:57. | |
begin was full so a person was placed in Maidenhead. We then | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
discovered there was someone from Maidenhead in the local treatment | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
unit in Torbay, and we arranged a swap. That sort of story makes you | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
weep. It leaves one feeling that there is a degree of incompetence | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
somewhere. It is a point I will come onto, that a lot of what I want to | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
see happen can be done by that organisation rather than more money. | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
I happen to believe we need more investment in local health services | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
but more can be done by organising things better. I thank my right | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
honourable friend for giving way. I wonder whether he would like to | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
commend the work that south-west London and St George 's have done | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
with a number of local authorities in the area, including mine, whether | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
police work with a nurse to ensure that if the police are dispatched | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
somewhere and someone does have a mental health problem, someone is | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
able to access them immediately and make sure they go to a place of | :11:58. | :12:06. | |
safety rather than a police cell. I would absolutely commend them for | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
that work. My right honourable friend is talking about some record | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
streak triage, which the Minister will be familiar with. We introduced | :12:13. | :12:21. | |
Street triage in a number of places in the country in the last two or | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
three years. There are some I nearing areas like Leicestershire | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
that just went ahead and did it before the national pilot started. | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
The evidence is dramatic that, where you have this collaboration between | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
police and mental health services, with a nurse embedded in the police | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
team, then you achieve amazing results. You reduce the number of | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
people being taken in under that legislation completely, because the | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
nurses able to find alternatives and reassure and provide care at home. | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
Where it is necessary to take someone to a place of safety, | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
bananas are people going into police cells dramatically false. -- the | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
numbers of people going into police cells dramatically falls. | :13:10. | :13:27. | |
It would be wrong not to acknowledge in our area that the police and the | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
health board have embarked on such an initiative but, again, in areas | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
like mine, there is a challenge of being in the countryside in making | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
those services available when needed, and there is a feeling that | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
the need is not met. I agree with that. My own committee suffers from | :13:47. | :13:55. | |
the same problem, widely spread rural communities. Having a nurse in | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
a car with a couple of police officers doesn't work in a big roll | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
area -- big roll -- big rural area. Depending on the geography, there | :14:05. | :14:25. | |
are ways of dealing with this. We need to be much smarter at doing it. | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
I applaud the innovation that has happened around the country, and the | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
whole approach that is used in the crisis care ... It said that these | :14:35. | :14:53. | |
are the principles, give us your plan for working together with the | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
police, mental health services and local authority to come up with | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
plans that work in your locality. It has generated the most amazing | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
degree of coordination around the country, with some real progress | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
being made and although I initiated it, I just have enormous aberration | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
for the people on the ground to went on and did it. It was inspiring. I | :15:18. | :15:27. | |
will bring him back to perhaps where he started, we had an issue in | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
Sutton whether mental health facilities shut down as a result of | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
legionnaires bacterium being discovered, mainly, and people meet | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
to travel to Springfield. As we see more people being treated at home, | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
which is what we want and we see therefore fewer people who while in | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
acute crisis, how does he deal with the fact there are fewer people who | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
need to be treated in specialist centres and therefore there are | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
likely to be a smaller number of them? It is a good point. I think, | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
again, it means we need to think afresh and innovate. The third | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
sector has been very good at coming up with concepts such as crisis | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
houses, where, at a low cost, they camera vied a facility in a locality | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
where someone can go at a moment of crisis, who may not need a formal | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
admission to a hospital, and it may well be a much more therapeutic | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
place to be as they get through their crisis. I was in Hertfordshire | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
recently, visiting the Hertfordshire partnership trust, and they have | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
host families that as an addition to crisis houses, where someone can go | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
if it is appropriate for them to be with a family for a week or whatever | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
is necessary. That may well be what exactly is needed, rather than the | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
cold, clinical environment of a hospital ward. So this sort of | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
innovation is what is needed in order to ensure we have services | :17:13. | :17:20. | |
that patients' needs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to share with the | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
House a testimony of a constituent who has experienced this. It is | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
quite shocking. It is an anonymous testimony, for obvious reasons, but | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
it is very powerful nonetheless. It reads as follows. I was admitted to | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
accident and emergency at the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital on a | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
Wednesday afternoon, following a suicide attempt. I be gained | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
consciousness the following day, having been transferred to the acute | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
medical unit. It was quickie decided that I needed to be admitted to a | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
mental health ward. I had previously been on a board in Norwich. At this | :18:06. | :18:15. | |
point, I was woozy, suffering from a dangerously low mood and angry that | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
my suicide attempt had failed. I was at grave risk of making another | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
attempt at my life. Throughout Thursday and Friday, efforts were | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
being made to find a mental health bed. This is what happens in the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
system. My parents were frantically try to find out what was happening | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
as they were desperate for me to be looked after locally. For a time, we | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
were told I would be going back to that ward but the news kept changing | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
between there and a unit in London. London is 100 20 miles away from | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
Norwich, and further away from my constituent... Home. -- 120 miles | :18:56. | :19:04. | |
was the we were told later that they be going to South London. During | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
Friday, I twice walked out of the ward and the hospital, without Mike | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
absence being noticed. I went down to the road near the hospital with | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
the intention of walking in front of a bus or lorry. The main reason I | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
did not go through with it was because I did not want the vehicle | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
to swerve into an oncoming car and cause death or injury to someone | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
else. Meanwhile, my parents resort it to contacting the crisis team as | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
they could not get any information from the bed team. A member of the | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
crisis team took responsibility for finding out what was happening, and | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
he was able to let me know that I was being transferred to South | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
London later that Friday evening. Finally, after more uncertainty, and | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
this bit is really shocking, two men arrived to take me to London. At | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
10pm, feeling suicide or frightened and confused, I got into the back of | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
a private ambulance, which was no more than an austere minibus and was | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
driven from Norwich. During the three-hour drive, I was spoken to | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
just once by one of the two men and felt more like a prisoner being | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
transported than a patient. This is the way our NHS deals with someone | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
who is acutely ill. It is shocking and ought not to be accepted. By | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
1am, completely disoriented, I arrived at the front for the mental | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
health unit in south London. After lots of knocking at the door, | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
someone answered and I was handed over with a quick good luck. I was | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
booked in and shown to my room. I felt isolated and scared. My room | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
was nice but unit felt like a prison. The internal doors were like | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
cell doors and there was a tiny outdoor area fringed by a high fence | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
with spikes on the top. It was a mixed ward, both in terms of sex and | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
illness. People with depression and anxiety were alongside those with | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
psychosis, personality disorders and acute problems. I will make specific | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
reference to that. It is shocking to throw a whole load of people with | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
completely different conditions together. It is probably the most | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
un-therapeutic environment you could possibly imagine. It is containing | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
people, not caring for people. It ought to be a thing of the past. I | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
am grateful to Mike right honourable friend and neighbour for giving way. | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
I had a similar case in King's Lynn, which I cannot go into because | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
it ended in tragedy, with the individual committing suicide, | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
having made an attempt. But he agreed that one of the absolute key | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
aspects of such cases is that there is proper monitoring and supervision | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
of the individual whose life is obviously at risk during a | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
particular episode of this kind? It is absolutely critical that that | :22:03. | :22:13. | |
happens, not only monitoring, but proper treatment. As I will go on to | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
describe in this case, that is not what happened here. He says, the | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
following morning I had a meeting with my named nurse. | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Extraordinarily, it was the only real conversation I had with him | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
until I was discharged back to Norfolk, ten days later. That is not | :22:30. | :22:38. | |
therapeutic care. It is neglect. I have incidentally asked whether | :22:39. | :22:41. | |
there are any contractual requirements on the private provider | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
who divided that care, in inverted commas, and you received a | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
substantial sum of money for it -- who received. I was told it would be | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
understood there would be therapeutic care, but there was no | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
apparent requirement, in return for such an out of public money being | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
spent on his car. He goes on, the care was unacceptable, it felt as | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
though I was being kept in a holding facility, and my mental health | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
deteriorated, with Mike suicidal thoughts increases -- my suicidal. | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
In stark contrast to Norwich, the staff were told -- in behind a heavy | :23:24. | :23:33. | |
steel door, I rarely had a conversation within in member of | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
staff, my parents were horrified by what they are encountered, both the | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
level of care and my deterioration. They were constantly contacting the | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
Norfolk and Suffolk mental health trusts to try to get me moved back | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
to Norfolk, the stress made them both ill. This is the impact you | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
have on families as well. Thankfully, their persistence paid | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
off and after ten days I was told that I was going to be recalled. I | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
had a brief period of uncertainty, as I didn't know whether I would be | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
going to Helston, King's Lynn or Great Yarmouth. Eventually I was | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
told it would be Helston, and I got into a taxi with a member of staff | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
and was driven from south London to there. When I arrived there and | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
cried, mainly through relief. I was greeted with compassion and | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
understanding by the staff, and, after ten wasted and expensive days, | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
my recovery finally began. That experience, sadly, Madam Deputy | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
Speaker, is repeated day in day out across the NHS. It is a scandal that | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
it continues. One of the things that I will be put to the Minister at the | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
end of this is that I want his commitment to end this practice. | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
Because it is intolerable that it continues in this day and age. But I | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
will come back to that. I also mention,s, the cost. There has been | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
-- Madam Deputy Speaker. There has been an analysis done by I think the | :25:08. | :25:19. | |
confidential enquiries into suicide in patient care. And the | :25:20. | :25:29. | |
understanding they have, looking at 29 providers, is that the cost of | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
out of area placements went up from ?51.4 million to ?65.2 million in | :25:36. | :25:44. | |
2014-15. Now, that is an extraordinary amount of money to | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
spend on an unacceptable practice. And it again demonstrates that with | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
smarter use of the resources available, it should be possible to | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
bring an end to this practice. I mentioned earlier the question of | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
suicide, and the connection between out of area placements and the risk | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
of suicide. And I quote here, worryingly, the National | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
confidential inquiry on suicide and homicide has found that being | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
treated out of area also increases someone's risk of suicide. The | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
pattern is most apparent in England, where suicides bite in patients and | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
patients recently discharged from hospital has fallen, although | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
patients from out of area ward have increased. The annual number of | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
suicides after discharge from non-local unit has increased from 68 | :26:43. | :26:53. | |
in 2003-2007, two 109 between 2008 and 2012. Experts have warned that | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
mental health patients are at the highest risk of taking their own | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
lives in the first two weeks after being discharged from hospital. And | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
these figures confirm that. Now, we are talking about a risk of people | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
actually losing their lives, surely we have to see the absolute | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
importance of bringing this practice to an end. I also wanted to refer, | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, to a recent report by the independent | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
mental-health services Alliance. It is called Breaking Down Barriers, | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
Improving Patient Access And Outcomes In Mental Health. It makes | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
the point that the thing that I have been arguing for consistently, the | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
introduction of comprehensive waiting time standards in mental | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
health, so that somebody with a mental health problem has exactly | :27:48. | :27:49. | |
the same right of access to treatment as anyone else, must be a | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
priority. But it also goes on to say, people who end up in and out of | :27:57. | :28:03. | |
area placement, sometimes perhaps a long way away from home, get lost in | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
the system. They almost get forgotten about. They are away from | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
the Commissioners, they are away from the, and they can sometimes | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
languish in these centres for far too long. And that again seems to be | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
completely intolerable. And they make reference also to the problem | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
of delayed discharge. They say, and I quote "we have found that between | :28:32. | :28:39. | |
2013-14, the number of delayed discharge per month for trusts | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
providing mental-health services increased by 22.2%. That indicates | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
that the late discharges are having an increased impact on patients' | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
access to appropriate care." In other words, if beds are clogged up | :28:55. | :29:00. | |
by people who are ready to leave all go home or go to another facility, | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
but can't, because nothing else is arranged for them, then somebody | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
else, at a moment of crisis, cannot get access to a bed and get shunted | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
off, sometimes on the way away from home. A completely unacceptable | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
practice -- a long way away from home. It begs reference to children | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
and young people's mental-health services. The Minister will be | :29:25. | :29:26. | |
particularly responsible about a key concern about children being | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
shunted, often hundreds of miles away from home. And intolerable | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
practice, and I know it has happened in the south-west, there has been a | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
particular shortage of beds for children in the south-west. There | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
was an inquiry undertaken by a team within NHS England, which came up | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
with recommendations for eradicating this problem. And the task force | :29:52. | :30:00. | |
report, Future In Mind,, that we published shortly before the general | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
election, pointed to the absolute need to care for people close to | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
home, to have better prices support, to avoid admissions where possible | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
-- crisis support. But the practice continues, and again it must be a | :30:16. | :30:18. | |
priority for the Minister to bring this practice to an end. One of the | :30:19. | :30:27. | |
things that Future In Mind sought to address is this awful tiering of | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
care within children's mental health services. If you are in Tier four as | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
a child, and you are put into Tier four from Tier three because the | :30:39. | :30:46. | |
judgment is that you need more acute inpatient care, then the financial | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
responsibility for your care is transferred to NHS England. So there | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
is an incentive for local commissioners to push them into the | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
top tier, which is precisely the opposite of what ought to be | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
happening. We ought to be focusing our incentives on preventing | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
deterioration of health, not shunting people into the most acute | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
care, and then too often away from home. Just imagine for a moment what | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
it must be like for parents of perhaps a 14-year-old child who is | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
taken into a unit, 100 or 200 miles away from home, it is really | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
shocking. And it is a practice that this Government hopefully will feel | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
the need to commit to eradicating as quickly as possible. Madam Deputy | :31:34. | :31:42. | |
Speaker, when this issue came to my attention as Minister, I asked | :31:43. | :31:49. | |
officials to provide me with data to find out what was happening around | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
the country. I was confronted I F O why requests by campaigning | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
organisations -- Freedom of information. And news reports of | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
shocking things happening around the system. I had no information to base | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
my own judgment on. And I was told by officials that we didn't collect | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
data on this. So, Government operates in a complete fog. We rely | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
on campaigning organisations are making choir rose under Freedom of | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
Information Act, and I would urge the Minister -- to make enquiries. I | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
urge the Minister to use what powers of persuasion he has not to | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
undermine freedom of information, because there is a process underway | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
at the moment which runs the risk of achieving precisely that will stop | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
its a really important way of holding Government to account. But, | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
I was faced with no information, no data at all, on this practice. So we | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
initiated a process to start the collection of data. We now have data | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
collected. It is still in experimental form. But it is better | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
than nothing. What the data shows is, first of all, extraordinary | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
variation around the country. And this comes back to my point that it | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
is not just about extra money, it is also about practice, good practice, | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
learning from the areas of best practice. What we discover is that | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
there many mental health trusts around the country who have no out | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
of area placement at all. Funded in broadly the same way as other areas, | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
and yet there are over areas there who have a and unacceptable problem | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
-- other areas. The latest data, and there is a three-month delay, I'm | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
afraid, before the data is published. So we are looking at data | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
from the end of August. But at the end of August there were 2198 pupil | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
in-out of area placement is -- people. And that has demonstrated a | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
drift upwards. What we are loved entirely clear on -- we are not | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
entirely clear on whether this is a question of more data or whether | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
this is a worsening of the problem. And I don't want to draw the wrong | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
conclusions from that. But certainly the numbers do not appear to be | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
going down. One particular issue I wanted to raise with the Minister is | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
that the data is incomplete. Because there are a number of private | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
providers who refuse to return data. Now, they are contractually | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
obliged in their contractual dealings with the NHS to return that | :34:39. | :34:45. | |
data. I raised it with officials and with the information centre when I | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
was Minister. But surely this is completely unacceptable. I have no | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
difficulty with a good private provider providing a good quality | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
service, but they absolutely must play by the same rules as everybody | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
else. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way, and to bring you back | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
to the point is making earlier about Freedom of information, is it not | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
right, and in fact there is a case for extending Freedom of | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
information, to insure that private companies that are doing public | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
works, they are actually covered in exactly the same weight by F O why, | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
and I devised the Health Secretary that it applies to many other | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
sectors as well -- exactly the same way as Freedom of information. There | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
should be a level playing field, and there is in that moment. What we | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
have now is an unacceptable situation of incomplete data because | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
some private providers are refusing to play ball. And it leaves one | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
suspicious, because if they are not providing data about how many people | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
are being held, it is impossible then told the system to account. And | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
indeed to hold those private providers to account. So, the | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
Minister needs to provide a way of holding those people to account and | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
insuring that they provide the data that they are obliged to provide. | :36:05. | :36:13. | |
Along with the variation, there is also the fact that there is a | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
horrific number of people who are still being sent a considerable | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
distance away from home. At the end of August, over 500 people, 501 | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
people, were sent more than 50 coulomb it is away from home. -- | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
kilometres. That surely is intolerable, given what I said about | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
the increased risk of suicide, the fact that it does not provide | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
therapeutic care, the containment of some would even ten days has | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
enormous cost to the public purse -- the containment of somebody. This is | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
the most outrageous misuse, it seems to me, public money. And there are | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
some persistent areas where the problem is at its greatest. In | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
Devon, the Devon partnership NHS Trust, in August had 45 people out | :37:06. | :37:13. | |
of area. Now, the caveat is that we don't know precisely where | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
responsibility lies. Whether it is a commissioning issue, provide issue, | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
but this is their local provider -- eight provide issue. One would | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
expect it to be provided by the local provider. 45 people, let me | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
just finished the point, that means significantly more than one person | :37:34. | :37:38. | |
every day is shunted more than 50 coulomb it is away from. | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
Has any analysis being done and whether the families in these cases | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
have been contacted? Surely it is incredibly important that one of the | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
strands of support for these patients is through their family. | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
These cases involved families being informed and having been given | :38:04. | :38:12. | |
permission for them being moved? We don't know that. The information is | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
very basic. It is a crucial area and I imagine that, often, | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
communications do fall down when these urgent referrals to another | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
location take place. I raise another issue is about families, and that is | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
the fact that, imagine if you are having to visit a loved one 50: That | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
is, 100, it is away from home, it is the cost involved. We in the chamber | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
can afford to visit a loved one and any of us could be in that | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
situation. But there are many who cannot afford to do that. That is | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
another reason why that is intolerable. I thank the honourable | :38:50. | :38:59. | |
gentleman for giving way. It is interesting to hear his statistics | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
around my area of Devon. One of the issues is the point he raised, the | :39:04. | :39:13. | |
king indications -- the king communications. The thing is, you | :39:14. | :39:23. | |
are presented with a choice of, this is what treatment your loved one | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
needs, this is where they need to be. It leaves the family feeling | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
desperate and guilty that they cannot do anything to help their | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
loved one. They feel powerless to do anything about it. There is a little | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
boy called Josh Wills. This is a related issue of a boy with autism, | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
from Cornwall. He was placed in a specialist unit in Birmingham. | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
Imagine the journey that his parents had to do every week from Cornwall | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
to Birmingham. He was there for over three years. I had to intervene | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
personally as minister to get the ministers to London to try and | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
sorted out. He is now back in Cornwall but it has taken too long | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
for that happen. -- to get the commissioners to London. I should | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
also mention in terms of the areas where the problem is at its worst, | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
Lancashire had 30 cases in August. Again, one a day. Kent and Medway | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
NHS and social care partnership trust, 30. West London mental health | :40:37. | :40:47. | |
NHS Trust, 25. Birmingham and Solihull, 25. Again, there is the | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
caveat that we don't know where responsibility lies. But we should | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
surely accept that the practice is not acceptable and has to be brought | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
to an end. I should also say that the data focuses on nonspecialist | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
beds. It is fair to say that there will be cases, just as with a | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
physical health problem, where a patient needs a specialist input and | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
where a referral to a specialist hospital, such as Papworth, may be | :41:17. | :41:24. | |
appropriate. These are nonspecialist beds where care should be provided, | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
surely, closer to home. We got this data and it allows us to hold the | :41:32. | :41:41. | |
system to account. Along with establishing this dataset, we also | :41:42. | :41:55. | |
got Monitor and the TDA to do "deep dives" into organisations and those | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
with a bad record with out of area placements to try and understand | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
better what was going on. When they reported back to me as a result of | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
their work, their conclusion was, this was a problem that ought to be | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
solvable. This was the important point for the Minister. It is not | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
something that we would all love to do but it is not possible, it is | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
achievable, but it requires drive, ambition and determination to see it | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
through. If I may, as an ex-minister, just offer a bit of | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
advice to the current incumbent in this position, in my view, it is no | :42:41. | :42:51. | |
good just saying we need to make incremental improvements, we need to | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
make sure that we say that this is not acceptable. Someone in a mental | :42:57. | :42:58. | |
health crisis who does not require specialist care should not be sent | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
away from home. At all. It is not a difficult issue, it should become | :43:06. | :43:18. | |
what the NHS knows as and "never event" how can we tolerate it. The | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
Minister has two set the objective of ending the practice. I understand | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
that it takes time. My view was that I wanted to see it end by the end of | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
this calendar year. This was back in March. I recognise that is now not | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
achievable. But I set the objective of ending it within a year, within | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
12 months. It is achievable provided there is drive, ambition and purpose | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
to make it happen. May I raise a related issue? That is of money. I | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
have made very clear that I totally sign up to the importance of trying | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
to do things differently, to make better use of resources to achieve | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
good results for people. But there is also an issue of the investment | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
needed in mental health. In the March Budget, Nick Clegg... I do | :44:11. | :44:19. | |
apologise, Madame Debord is bigger, the right honourable member for | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
Sheffield Hallam, secured in negotiation as part of the run-up to | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
the Budget, money for the five-year period over this Parliament in extra | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
investment in children and young people's mental health services. In | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
year one, the amount that ought to have arrived for those services on | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
an equitable division of 1.25 billion would have been 250 million. | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
In fact, the amount made available was 143 million. A shortfall. We | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
were told that this was because we were partway through the year, we | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
had had the general election, we needed to make sure that the money | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
was spent effectively. I sort of accepted that as an explanation but | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
I have since heard from reliable sources that, actually, there was a | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
bit of a land grab going on and, in order to pop the finances of acute | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
hospitals, perhaps, that money was taken away from children and young | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
people's mental health services. I urge the Government to ensure that | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
we make good the shortfall in future years. The Minister, really | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
helpfully, on the 13th of October, reconfirmed that the full ?1.25 | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
billion would be spending this Parliament, and I call on him to | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
repeat that commitment today. It is completely critical that an amount | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
of money in extra investment confirmed in the Budget in March is | :45:59. | :46:05. | |
stuck to. It is a matter of good faith by the Government and I would | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
like to hear that confirmation. I also think we need to make good the | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
shortfall in year two. Just as with the rest of the NHS, frontloading of | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
this money to invest in change is the best way to make the best use of | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
the resources available. So, Madam Deputy is bigger, I moved | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
towards the end of my rather elongated contribution, due to the | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
additional time we have available to us. I wanted to just end by asking | :46:36. | :46:44. | |
specific questions of the Minister, and I would be really grateful if he | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
could address each of them directly this afternoon. If on any of them he | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
is unable to give a direct answer this afternoon, I would be really | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
grateful if he could write to me as soon as possible to respond directly | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
to these questions. The first question is the issue of principle. | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
Does he accept that this practice is unacceptable? I am not talking about | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
specialist beds, I am talking about nonspecialist beds where someone in | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
a mound of acute mental health crisis is shunted around the | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
country, a practice that would never be tolerated in physical health. | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
Will he commit to ending this practice completely within 12 | :47:29. | :47:36. | |
months, to make it a never event? Will he personally drive this | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
change, because, from experience, this is what is necessary. It needs | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
to be on the case constantly to ensure that the system responds to | :47:48. | :47:54. | |
this moral imperative. Will he ensure that all providers provide | :47:55. | :48:01. | |
the data that they are obliged by their contracts to provide to the | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
information centre? Anything short of that is, again, completely | :48:08. | :48:16. | |
unacceptable. Next, the data is still in an experimental form. The | :48:17. | :48:23. | |
information centre describes the fact that... In the notes to the | :48:24. | :48:32. | |
data, it says that it provides a reference point for more accurate | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
measurement in the future. That means that this has two of old will | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
stop there has to be an air pollution to get to the point -- and | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
evolution to get to the point where there is more accurate data to make | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
sure that providers and commissioners can be held to | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
account. Can he ensure that the experiment data is turned into final | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
four data that we can all rely on -- final form data that we can all be | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
liable? Will he give us is absolute commitment to ensuring that ?1.25 | :49:09. | :49:20. | |
billion is spent in additional investment in children and young | :49:21. | :49:22. | |
people's mental health in this Department? Will he also commit to | :49:23. | :49:31. | |
sticking with the vision that we published in October this last | :49:32. | :49:39. | |
year, to introduce waiting times standards. I did that work that led | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
to that document in collaboration with the Secretary of State, who was | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
incredibly helpful in supporting me getting that published. But the | :49:47. | :49:53. | |
vision was very clear. It recognised that, until we have come prances | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
waiting time standards in mental health, as exist within physical | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
health, we will not get equality of access to treatment? It seems | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
essential that in a publicly funded service that every person must have | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
the same right to get treatment on a timely basis, evidence -based | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
treatment, as anyone else. As indicated already, will he write to | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
confirm any specific point that he heals unable to deal with this | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
afternoon? Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
Thank you. We have been very fortunate this afternoon in having | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
rather longer than we normally get in an adjournment abate, which has | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
allowed the right honourable gentleman to be able to talk at | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
greater length about some of the issues affecting the historic | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
imbalance between mental and physical health, with particular | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
relationship to the out of area mental health placements. I am | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
delighted, therefore, to congratulate him on securing the | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
debate and to be able to respond to it. Can I thank the opportunity that | :51:13. | :51:20. | |
has been taken by a number of honourable and right honourable | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
Jedward to take part? -- the right honourable gentleman. | :51:28. | :51:37. | |
I see in his place the right or member for... Hails Owen. You are | :51:38. | :51:44. | |
the whip, Madam. You are always there. Which we welcome and | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
acknowledge. My honourable friend, the member for hails Owen, has | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
dropped in as part of his responsible it is in the House was | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
the House will stop I welcome that as well. I welcome my honourable | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
friend the whip for her attendance on the bench. | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
Before I come to respond in more detail, I will make some general | :52:10. | :52:16. | |
remarks. The honourable gentleman made reference at the beginning to | :52:17. | :52:18. | |
the long-standing nature of some of these problems. These issues have | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
not arisen in the past six months. They have been there for some time. | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
Government in, government out. The coalition government made huge | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
strides in recognising the importance of mental health and | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
driving forward some of the changes that need to be made. | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
Part of my responsibility is to pick up on that and build on it. If I | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
could just make reference to the honourable gentleman, his cheek | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
achievements included the expansion of psychological therapies, the | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
reduction of use in police cells, introducing the first access and | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
waiting time standards and piloting that sense that there has to be | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
parity of esteem and that is absolutely, those achievements have | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
underpinned what I come in to find in the Department. The intractable | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
nature of some of the problems has been graphically illustrated by its | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
passionate expression today of some of the things he was not able to do | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
during his time as Minister and I find his second baseline for what I | :53:31. | :53:40. | |
am hoping to do. The bar has been set quite high. As he mentioned, as | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
others have mentioned, I think what has puzzled me most is the | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
variability of practice. How it is that in two areas, often | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
side-by-side with the same resources, there is in one a set of | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
procedures in place which ensured that good treatment is provided and | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
in another that that is not the case. It is not always about | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
resources. It's about management, leadership and I have been puzzled | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
as to why there is so much of this around the place. Secondly, a father | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
puzzle which is very pertinent to what we will be talking about | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
today, again the honourable gentleman the perverse incentives in | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
the system. The fact that because treatment costs are split between | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
the local authorities and NHS, it seems to suit people's budgets to | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
decide treatment based not on what is best for the patient but what is | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
best for the budget. When you are dealing with people and the | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
honourable gentleman's description from his letter of his constituent | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
which I know about because I responded to him this week, it | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
illustrates what the impact is on the individual of decisions that | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
people are making for perverse incentive reasons, four budget, if | :55:09. | :55:16. | |
perhaps that was one of the reasons and IM interested in why there is | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
such variability between areas, areas that have few out of area | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
places and others that do not. Let me come onto this and put one or two | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
things on the record before I deal with all the questions because I | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
hope to be able to do so. The government's commitment is clear. We | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
have given the NHS more money than ever before for mental health with | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
an increase of ?11.4 billion. We have made it clear that local | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
services must follow our lead by increasing the amount they spent on | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
mental health and making sure beds are always available. We announced | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
an additional ?600 million for mental health over the next five | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
years for increasing psychological therapies, crisis care and perinatal | :56:05. | :56:14. | |
health. In perinatal mental health services, I want to ensure that | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
women are able to access the right care at the right time and close to | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
home. I know that the provision of specialist Perrin until then to | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
health services varies. Some women have access to excellent care and | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
support while there are serious gaps in other areas. Women suffering the | :56:32. | :56:45. | |
most severe perinatal mental health promises need the most important | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
health care and services. Nice estimates there is a UK shortfall | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
between 60 to 80 baby and mother unit beds. That's why we announced | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
the government will invest an additional ?75 million over the next | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
five years, ?50 million per year to support women with mental health in | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
the perinatal period. -- ?15 million. The honourable gentleman's | :57:13. | :57:23. | |
work has made that base and I give him as much as she rents as I can do | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
in the areas where he set the work in progress, that will continue. In | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
places where I think the work is going slowly, it will be challenged. | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
In places where he was not able to make the progress he wanted to make, | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
I set myself the challenge to do just that. I don't have to worry an | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
awful lot about Freedom of information requests because I get | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
the questions from him and a number of other friends and colleagues in | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
the house who have grasped how important this is. Coming to this | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
particular issue, the source of the debate, I also appreciate the work | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
the honourable gentleman put in train earlier this year with NHS | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
England and mental health provider organisations to understand the | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
pressures that lead to people being sent away from home for treatment | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
which should be available locally. This has helped provide a picture of | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
the scale of the problem and raise its profile. We know the principle | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
should always be care close to home in the least restrictive setting. It | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
is not acceptable for people to be troubling for miles when they are | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
acutely unwell. Going back again to that case that the honourable | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
gentleman raised which I know about having dealt with this week, I also | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
agree with him that some of the attitudes expressed by some of those | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
responsible for people's care are not good enough. It cannot be | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
acceptable and cannot have been acceptable that we seem to have | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
listened a bit too little to those that are in care or have been cared | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
for when they have made complaints about treatment. I am well aware | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
because I occasionally chased on Twitter about this and I say I am | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
looking carefully at how I can deal with this better, sometimes people | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
they feel they have not been listened to and we saw an example in | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
his constituent's letter that this might be more common than we think. | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
I want to ensured the inspection and regulation regime really picks | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
things up. Sometimes there will be differences of opinion and there | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
will be things that need to be clarified, but I do worry about the | :59:39. | :59:44. | |
attitudes that are sometimes expressed and I want to make sure | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
that the department has really got hold of ensuring that those sort of | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
complaints are picked up on wherever possible it has really been borrowed | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
into to find out what went on. -- borrowed. One of the things | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
highlighted in my constituent's case was the fact he was transported late | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
at night, arriving at 1am and in another case of someone else from | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
Norfolk in the same unit, that same week, who was collected at 1am from | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
the unit to be brought back to Norfolk. This treats people like | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
cattle, not human beings and I wonder whether he would be prepared | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
to highlight to the Care Quality Commission that they ought to be | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
investigated and exploring the transporting of people because that | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
experience in a minibus effectively with someone who does not talk to | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
them for three hours, arriving late at night is outrageous. He is right. | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
Of course it is and I share with him the frustration he must have had. I | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
write a lot of letters to colleagues who expressed concerns and have to | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
signpost them to the other organisations now in the health | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
sector who have responsibility particular decisions because quite | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
rightly, local decisions ought to be local and trusts need to be | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
accountable for what they are doing and occasionally I have to tell him | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
it is frustrating when I feel I cannot pick up the phone and make my | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
own enquiry, but we cannot run a system in which ministers | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
arbitrarily pick up cases because they are the ones we know about. | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
There has to be a structured system but I am looking at ways in which | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
when particular things come tonight, I can use the authority of the | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
department to make sure something has been really got into, even if it | :01:43. | :01:49. | |
is somebody else's responsibility. That we in this house remain | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
accountable for things and make sure that those statutory groups have a | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
grip on something. I will be keen to do that. Would he agrees there is | :01:58. | :02:06. | |
something fundamentally unsatisfactory and wrong about | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
moving someone late at night unless you absolutely have to for medical | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
and clinical reasons? Yes. It seems very puzzling that it should be a | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
regular practice, if it is. It should not be the case. Of course | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
there were all sorts of different pressures on the system, again to | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
say it should never happen would not be appropriate, but in principle, | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
moving people who are in a state of anxiety should be done with maximum | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
care at the time which is of greatest benefit to them and their | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
health needs, so my honourable friend is right. Let me return to | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
prepared remarks if I may. It is not acceptable for people for travelling | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
miles when they are on well, it is not acceptable for staff phoning | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
around finding a bed for their patients and can I make reference | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
again to social media's impact. I picked up a Twitter a couple of | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
weeks ago from a frustrated Doctor who I hope will pick up on this | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
debate, he said that there was no bed available for a woman anywhere | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
in England a particular day. Clearly, when I got the tweet and | :03:25. | :03:32. | |
the honourable lady for Liverpool way victory raised it with me, we | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
made enquiries and found out it was not technically true. There were | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
beds available to which the response came back, Minister, you may be | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
technically correct but it is very difficult to find them. From my | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
enquiries, that seems to be right, so we need to find a better system | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
of identifying beds available because that is part of the problem. | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
We should not have people spending time looking for things and I have | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
an idea for that, but I wanted to say to that particular clinician, I | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
did not think what he said was technically true but I do | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
acknowledge for those in the business of finding beds, it should | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
not be as difficult as it is. We know they need to place people out | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
of area, away from home, family and friends is a warning sign of a | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
mental health system under pressure and we know nobody wants to spend | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
scarce resource on sending people out of area. We can't look at | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
treatment in isolation. They are part of the pathway as a whole. I | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
welcome the report to review the provision of acute inpatient | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
psychiatric care for adults and I'm looking forward to his final report | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
and recommendations early in the New Year. The interim report highlighted | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
the situation is more complex as I'm sure the honourable gentleman knows | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
that being about a shortage of beds. While there has been a | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
reduction in psychiatric beds, the report suggests thereafter enough | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
beds if improvements are made to other parts of the system and | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
integrated community-based systems were commissioned. The interim | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
report also highlighted that the so-called bed crisis or admission | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
crisis is a problem with discharges and alternatives to admission and | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
can only be addressed through changes in services and the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
management of the whole system. As the honourable gentleman points out, | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
this can be done as has been demonstrated by a number of local | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
areas. In Sheffield they have entirely eliminated adult acute out | :05:46. | :05:52. | |
of area treatments and brought occupancy down by investing in the | :05:53. | :06:03. | |
system. Norfolk and Suffolk NHS Foundation Trust have begun to | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
reduce a historic problem it had to reduce out of area treatments | :06:09. | :06:10. | |
through a combination of investing in more acute adult beds and working | :06:11. | :06:20. | |
with commissioners. I understand the independent mental health task force | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
has spent some time discussing these issues. I hope the report will be an | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
important driver for improving mental health services and address | :06:31. | :06:32. | |
many of the issue raised by the interim report. Could he confirm the | :06:33. | :06:49. | |
likely date of the publication of the task force report? I think he | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
said New Year but what is the best estimate of that and secondly, I | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
would like to acknowledge the Norfolk and Suffolk trust has made | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
real progress. The numbers of people being sent out of area has come down | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
significantly and that ought to be recognised. | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
I'm grateful for what the gentleman said about his trust. My | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
understanding is that the task force report will come through very | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
shortly, I don't know if it will be this month or the start of next | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
month, but it is imminent. The Secretary of State for Health, and I | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
appreciate your kind remarks made about him, has already agreed an | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
action plan to tackle out of area treatments for adult acute patient | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
careful stop where out of area treatments are a problem, local | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
areas will be asked to put in place clear action plans demonstrating how | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
can introduce area treatments in the best interests of patients by 2017. | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
Here I come to one of the challenges. Building on this, I | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
intend to go further and put in place a national ambition to address | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
out of area treatments. I will do this in consideration of the crisp | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
commission and the task force report and communicate details by March | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
next year. What I want to do is wait for what Lord crisp says, as well as | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
the task force, and proceed as he suggests with what the ambition | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
should be, complete elimination? Should provide much tighter | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
variation? I want to get the reports before I set the ambition, but I | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
will set the ambition, the targets, and I will come back to the house | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
before the end of March next year to communicate that. I hope that is a | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
help. Can I also commend The Right Honourable gentleman for recognising | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
the need to improvement of health crisis care, and for launching the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
mental health crisis care concordant which we discussed in the course of | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
the debate. Again, it was an opportunity to talk about practice, | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
and the quality of Street try arch and different areas. I saw the work | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
done in Bradford where they have their mental health practitioner in | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
the control room, as opposed to being on the street, and various | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
different things that are done. The galvanising of local groups working | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
together, because they are given the responsibility of doing the job, has | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
been absolutely vital. I think the way in which we are also dealing | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
with reducing the numbers of those detained in police cells, as has | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
been made reference to, is a clear example of how that process is | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
working. Turning to children and young people, the government is | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
equally committed to reducing out a very mental health treatment for | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
children and young people. In patient admission is a relatively | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
rare event, but at anyone time there are approximately 1300 young | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
children and young people in England in adolescent services. These issues | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
are usually subdivided into different specialties, such as | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
eating disorder units, low security units, meaning it is challenging to | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
provide compact scare in areas. On some occasions some children and | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
young people might have to be referred for treatment away from | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
their homes. Is that in the best interests in their care? We are | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
committed to ensuring this is as rare and event as possible, and much | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
progress has already been made. Norman Lamb. In the recommendations | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
from the task force that NHS England established to look at tier four | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
services and build numbers of beds required across the system, the | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
variability around the country, one of the things they come up with was | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
that itch it always be contained within a region, in other words, in | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
the south-west, the child should never go out of the south-west to | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
where ever it was, I think it was Berkshire. Is he sticking to that? | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
Are we ensuring that is the objective and we are monitoring and | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
meeting that? As best as possible, absolutely yes. There will be | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
occasions when very specialised treatment has to be given, and on | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
occasions that will be outside area, at a park that, absolutely. | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
Appropriate care, appropriate to where people post is to where they | :11:27. | :11:36. | |
are, as much as possible. -- close to where people are. Some people | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
have had to travel long distances to access a bed, and there was the need | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
for greater distribution around the country. There was an immediate | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
response to this, 7 million of additional funding, taking the total | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
number of beds to 1440, its highest ever number. NHS England has | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
introduced new protocols for the referrals of this charge, and a new | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
live bed monitoring system to make best use of capacity. It is that | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
monitoring capacity, does that have relevance to the adult acute beds, | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
and it could make the job of my coalition friend the better. We want | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
to build on the process further. In January this year NHS England | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
announced a comprehensive review of the book or meant and commissioning | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
of patient beds, the aim of which is to establish long-term requirements | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
for inpatient services and ensure quality sustainable services are in | :12:38. | :12:39. | |
the right place based on population needs. It's enough simply to provide | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
more beds to make sure communities are sustainable, we need to make | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
sure community support is offered to children and young people. That's at | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
the heart of the vision set out for the future in mind. Determined to | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
make sure children and young people have access to the right support, | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
the right service, at the right time, and is close to home as | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
possible. Key to achieving this vision are the local area | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
transformation plans now being put in place. CCGs have been asked to | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
work with NHS commissioning teams in the creation of these plans. Two | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
final points, and then a conclusion. Firstly, on data... I have also been | :13:22. | :13:31. | |
interested in what data is available and what isn't. I answered a number | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
of questions saying the data is not collected centrally. I looked at | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
every question closely, are there occasions when we should be doing | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
more with the data? There is still a lot to do. Much work, but I entirely | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
take his point. On data, we are looking at the limitations. He was | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
right to talk about the problems in getting the data set right. But I'm | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
onto that, and I think it's essential, and I will take the | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
challenge of driving and moving data. On providers, the | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
responsibility seems to come down to CCGs. It's unacceptable that private | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
providers do not submit data. More have started submitting since the | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
summer, but it's still not good enough. If we need this information, | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
we need it. I'm going to look at whether CCGs are using the | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
contractual levers, and if not, why not? And if not, we can apply | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
sanctions. That information is necessary and I'm glad to do it, | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
he's absolutely right. In relation to his questions and points, the | :14:47. | :14:56. | |
principal and determination, I will come back to you by March next year | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
to set up a national ambition. Do I commit to ending the practice | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
completely? I do not know yet because I want to get the result of | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
the commission. That it should be reduced to a minimum is right, and I | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
want to know if it's possible to eliminate it, or whether that will | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
not do the job that will not do the job that's what the commission has | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
to say. I drive these changes. All providers will provide data. Will I | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
commit to ?1.25 billion? Yes I will. I have said it enough times in | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
enough places to make it a very difficult government commitment to | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
slip away from. It's over the course of the next five years and I'm happy | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
to repeat that. I will take one more final intervention. I'm very | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
grateful for his patience in allowing me to intervene again. I'm | :15:49. | :15:57. | |
conscious that there is a risk that the shortfall in the first year is | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
made up in 1920 something like that, it seems that the principle of | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
frontloading to invest in change, it would be incredibly helpful if we | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
could get the commitment to make good the shortfall in 16 or 17. | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
Could he commit to doing that? There are things I can do, and things it's | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
unwise to take a flyer on when standing at the dispatch box. I will | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
try. We need to make sure the money is used sensibly. There are a lot of | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
pressures on the system. I'm trying to be as bold as I can without being | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
foolishly bold, and saying things for the sake of it. I understand the | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
importance of the 1.25 billion, I've spoken about it a great deal and | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
want to see it used. I'm not responsible entirely for the | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
timescale but I understand your point, and I understand it will come | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
up with the opposition debate that we will have next year. Maximum | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
waiting times, I need to talk to the Secretary of State about that and | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
see if we can go further and include that in a comprehensive letter to | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
him. I hope that has been helpful for today. I'm delighted we had | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
extra time to cover the ground. I'm pleased to take up the challenge to | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
do some things that couldn't be done in the past few years, and I will do | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
my best and live up to the expectations of the house as | :17:19. | :17:20. | |
expressed by a number of members today. The question is that this | :17:21. | :17:31. | |
house do now adjourn... The ayes have it. Order. | :17:32. | :17:48. | |
That's the end of the day in the House of Commons. We will now go | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
live to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded coverage of all | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
today's business at the Lord's after the daily politics later tonight. | :18:00. | :18:07. | |
The success of this review will be determined by whether that gap can | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
be narrowed, and in that context I welcome the outcome of last night's | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
debate in the other place, and the decision to authorise the extension | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
of military operations against IS to include its heartland in East Syria. | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
A decision which I believe was morally, legally and strategically | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
the right one to take. My Lords, it's easy to say that it's a great | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
honour to be joining | :18:39. | :18:39. |