03/12/2015 House of Commons


03/12/2015

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 03/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

provisions. The clerk will proceed to read the orders of the day. --

:00:00.:00:00.

83J. I call the Minister to move the

:00:07.:00:10.

second reading Bill, Minister Matthew Hancock.

:00:11.:00:15.

Thank you, Mr Speaker and I beg to move that the bill now be read a

:00:16.:00:19.

second time. Mr Speaker, every honourable member will know of the

:00:20.:00:24.

charity or of charities doing extraordinary work in their

:00:25.:00:29.

constituency and you may well as well. Many have served and will

:00:30.:00:35.

serve as patrons or trustees or may even have subjected themselves to

:00:36.:00:40.

ritual humiliation to raise money and awareness. I myself, Madam

:00:41.:00:46.

Deputy Speaker, have dressed up as a sumo wrestler and carried a

:00:47.:00:50.

pedometer for one week. I even lost two stone to raise a charger around

:00:51.:01:00.

Newmarket July course. Charities help us cope with difficulties,

:01:01.:01:03.

sickness of mind and body, entrenched poverty, natural

:01:04.:01:07.

disaster. So often they be bilby that we in government should

:01:08.:01:11.

follow. Long before there was an education at, NHS or welfare state,

:01:12.:01:16.

there were holes are set up by charities who knew that people could

:01:17.:01:20.

not wait. To date their compassion and kindness is matched with ideas

:01:21.:01:27.

and innovation. When polymer wire and Robert McGuire posted their

:01:28.:01:30.

first I spotted challenge video the expected to raise around ?500 for

:01:31.:01:35.

the motoneuron disease Association, the campaign went viral and many of

:01:36.:01:38.

us joined in and they ended up raising ?7 million. Although at

:01:39.:01:47.

Bristol Together, a social enterprise that refurbishes

:01:48.:01:49.

properties and uses ex-offenders to carry out the work. It is social

:01:50.:01:53.

investment and it is transforming lives. And we in government are

:01:54.:01:59.

committed to a full civil society, we have detected a budget for civil

:02:00.:02:04.

society. We are expanding the brilliant National Citizen Service,

:02:05.:02:07.

we are rolling out more locally designed social impact bonds. Along

:02:08.:02:12.

with these opportunities, they are also challenges, perhaps more than

:02:13.:02:17.

any other kind of enterprise, charities trade on the reputation,

:02:18.:02:23.

scandals of poor governance or unscrupulous fundraising undermined

:02:24.:02:28.

public trust, tarnishing the vast majority of charities that are well

:02:29.:02:33.

run and only seek to do good. -- polymer wire. I will give way.

:02:34.:02:40.

I could not agree more with the opening remarks of my rate

:02:41.:02:44.

honourable friend, talking about the charity landscape. However, I am a

:02:45.:02:52.

patron of Are not and I am Chancellor of the Prison Reform

:02:53.:02:55.

Trust. Both organisations are concerned, and I hope that my rate

:02:56.:02:59.

honourable friend can be their concerns, that this much needed

:03:00.:03:02.

piece of legislation may make it more difficult for them bearing in

:03:03.:03:06.

mind the subject which interest them, that is to see of the

:03:07.:03:12.

conditions of prisoners, may make it more difficult for them to have on

:03:13.:03:18.

their bodies, on their trustees, the groups, people with criminal

:03:19.:03:21.

convictions. The point is obvious but I am sure my right honourable

:03:22.:03:26.

friend with it. -- Paula McGuire. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:03:27.:03:29.

can give some assurance to my honourable friend, sorry, my

:03:30.:03:38.

honourable and Leonard friend, Mike Right Honourable and learned friend!

:03:39.:03:42.

If you would like to raise it any further I can continue! I can give

:03:43.:03:48.

an assurance, I give him those two charities of wiki is a of that work.

:03:49.:03:54.

While protecting charities through this bill, we also, of course seek

:03:55.:04:00.

to support the good work that excellent charities do. In the case

:04:01.:04:06.

of extra restrictions for those with underspent convictions, those that

:04:07.:04:11.

are proposed in the bill, there is first the ability of the charities

:04:12.:04:17.

commission itself to waive the restrictions of those with

:04:18.:04:22.

underspent convictions and then, as with all of the extra powers of the

:04:23.:04:26.

Charity Commission, there is the ability to appeal to the charity 's

:04:27.:04:35.

tribunal. I hope that he is reassured by the safeguards that are

:04:36.:04:38.

already in this Bill, but I would also hope that we can work with him

:04:39.:04:43.

in order to make sure that they are applied properly two charities that

:04:44.:04:48.

have to do this work in such an important area.

:04:49.:04:54.

I am most grateful to my right honourable friend and he has been

:04:55.:04:58.

extremely clear and helpful. May I make him this one offer? I know the

:04:59.:05:05.

success of Newmarket race -- Newmarket Racecourse, Leicester

:05:06.:05:07.

racecourse in my constituency is very good, if you would like to run

:05:08.:05:13.

there, please let me know! I am grateful for that unexpected

:05:14.:05:17.

invitation and I would dearly like or attempted to do that. I'm not and

:05:18.:05:25.

the Prison Reform Trust will work with Austin Mitchell that this Bill

:05:26.:05:31.

is passed. Moving more broadly on to the question of supporting the

:05:32.:05:35.

reputation of charities, scandals of poor governance or unscrupulous

:05:36.:05:40.

fundraising undermined public trust, as I have said. By one

:05:41.:05:45.

measure, trust in the sector is at a civil year ago and it is in all of

:05:46.:05:50.

our interest to make sure that we have a strong and confident and

:05:51.:05:53.

thriving charity sector. The purpose of this Bill is twofold. Firstly to

:05:54.:05:59.

tackle the challenges and to unlock new opportunities, and if I may,

:06:00.:06:04.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I will turn and go through the main provisions

:06:05.:06:08.

of this Bill. There are three main areas, firstly strengthening the

:06:09.:06:12.

Charity Commission powers, including over trustee disqualification.

:06:13.:06:17.

Secondly, the regulation of charity fundraising and thirdly, a new

:06:18.:06:20.

social investment power for charities. The first part of the

:06:21.:06:23.

bill relates to the Charity Commission's powers, let me turn to

:06:24.:06:28.

that. The purpose of the Charity Commission is to ensure that each of

:06:29.:06:35.

the 164,000 charities in England and Wales bursaries its charity

:06:36.:06:37.

objectives. Set up in 1853, it has done a century and a half of good

:06:38.:06:43.

work, about two years ago both the national audit of this and the

:06:44.:06:46.

Public Accounts Committee found that the Charity Commission was failing

:06:47.:06:50.

in its core duty, and in particular, that it was not doing enough to

:06:51.:06:55.

tackle the abuse of charity status. The NAO made a series of

:06:56.:07:00.

recommendations to improve the commission's effectiveness and based

:07:01.:07:02.

on this the Coalition Government published proposals for new powers,

:07:03.:07:06.

following a public consultation of the draft bill and it was published.

:07:07.:07:11.

The legislative scrutiny and bills passing through the has resulted in

:07:12.:07:14.

further refinement and I would like to take this opportunity to thank

:07:15.:07:18.

all those members, peers and others who have helped improve the bill

:07:19.:07:22.

that we present to the House today. These measures are just one part of

:07:23.:07:27.

the wider programme of reform aimed at turning the Charity Commission

:07:28.:07:31.

into a tough, clear and proactive regulator.

:07:32.:07:38.

It pains me to point out that he has left out the very significant

:07:39.:07:45.

scrutiny or post-legislative scrutiny on the existing pact

:07:46.:07:48.

conducted by my own committee at the last part of the demonstration

:07:49.:07:51.

Select Committee, which really was the prime precursor of the bill, and

:07:52.:07:59.

I personally sat on the joint committee which did the

:08:00.:08:00.

pre-legislative scrutiny of the current bill. But could he tell us

:08:01.:08:06.

something about recent controversies around, for example, charity

:08:07.:08:15.

fundraising, where we Arnold very frustrated that are conducting

:08:16.:08:17.

significant inquiries which the regulator, the charities commission

:08:18.:08:19.

should be conducting, but the should be conducting, but the

:08:20.:08:22.

Charity Commission does not necessarily have the powers to hold

:08:23.:08:26.

these hearings in public in a way that would demonstrate its

:08:27.:08:31.

regulatory role? I was going to come onto the work of

:08:32.:08:35.

honourable friend's work in making honourable friend's work in making

:08:36.:08:39.

sure that we have this Bill in the best possible shape, and I am very

:08:40.:08:46.

grateful for the work that he did at the end of the last Parliament,

:08:47.:08:50.

after the national or that of this report on getting a ball and making

:08:51.:08:55.

sure that we have to build and that it is one that can do what is

:08:56.:08:56.

necessary to make If I can just reply to the

:08:57.:09:08.

substantive point I will then give way. We believe the Charity

:09:09.:09:12.

commission has the power is to convene meetings in public. However,

:09:13.:09:19.

I recognise there is a question on whether it does or not and so I

:09:20.:09:24.

suggest doing the passage of the bill we will take this point in more

:09:25.:09:29.

detail and we are prepared to accept amendments if necessary to accept

:09:30.:09:33.

clarity on the point he makes. I will give way. I agree that

:09:34.:09:39.

legislative and pre-legislative scrutiny are important in this way.

:09:40.:09:45.

Can he say how much legislative scrutiny is being given by Her

:09:46.:09:54.

Majesty's opposition? This is a bill that I hope can unite all sides of

:09:55.:09:58.

the House and I welcome the honourable member opposite. My

:09:59.:10:04.

honourable friend has made the point and it will be clearly shown on the

:10:05.:10:11.

record that I do not want to get into an unnecessary dispute with the

:10:12.:10:15.

opposition given that I hope we will have all-party support for what I

:10:16.:10:19.

hope is an important bill which will strengthen the Charity commission

:10:20.:10:24.

and is ultimately in the best interests of charities throughout

:10:25.:10:29.

the land. On the question of providing that tough, clear and

:10:30.:10:33.

proactive regulator and under the strong and capable leadership of

:10:34.:10:39.

William Shawcross and Paula Sussex, they have put in a method of

:10:40.:10:46.

tackling mismanagement at the regulator needs to have teeth and

:10:47.:10:50.

the commission needs our help to address the gaps and deficiencies in

:10:51.:10:56.

its legal powers. The bill will close these gaps in the

:10:57.:11:00.

commission's capabilities as well as close a number of damaging loopholes

:11:01.:11:04.

in charity law. Let me briefly outline the five new powers will

:11:05.:11:09.

stop these are powers that will help protect the public, staff and people

:11:10.:11:15.

who work in the charities and to ensure we do not seek and they do

:11:16.:11:20.

not see to exploit vulnerable people. First, the Bill will extend

:11:21.:11:24.

the automatic criteria. The current law is on adding people who have

:11:25.:11:31.

misappropriated charitable assets but these criteria are far too

:11:32.:11:35.

narrow so instead we will extend them to include people with unspent

:11:36.:11:41.

convictions as my right honourable friend mentions for

:11:42.:11:45.

money-laundering, bribery, perjury, misconduct in public office and on

:11:46.:11:50.

the sex offenders register and those convicted of terrorism offences

:11:51.:11:55.

including individuals subject to asset freezing. They will be given

:11:56.:12:01.

new powers to disqualify, in instances within individual has

:12:02.:12:04.

behaved in a way that makes them unfit to be HIV to the trust deed

:12:05.:12:11.

acting on a case-by-case basis. This is essential to empower the Charity

:12:12.:12:15.

commission to tackle those who would bring charities into disrepute. I

:12:16.:12:20.

would hope it would be used with care and decisiveness. The bill

:12:21.:12:25.

gives the Charity commission a new official warning power in regards to

:12:26.:12:31.

low-level misconduct. This will allow for a proportionate approach

:12:32.:12:35.

to less serious cases. It allows a new power for the Charity commission

:12:36.:12:40.

to start winding up of a charity which would apply if the commission

:12:41.:12:46.

whose the charity is not operating or its purposes could be promoted

:12:47.:12:51.

more effectively by ceasing to operate and to do so would be in the

:12:52.:12:56.

public interest. This power we believe would be used in very

:12:57.:13:00.

limited circumstances and is subject to several safeguards. The bill

:13:01.:13:05.

closes a loophole that allows offending trustees to resign before

:13:06.:13:10.

been removed by the commission and to act as a trustee for a different

:13:11.:13:13.

charity without fear of repercussions. This would ensure

:13:14.:13:18.

trustees are longer able to escape accountability if the abuse their

:13:19.:13:25.

position of trust. All five of these proposals would be subject to the

:13:26.:13:30.

general duty to have regard to best practice and, with the exception of

:13:31.:13:34.

the officials warning power, all of the officials new powers are subject

:13:35.:13:39.

to the right of appeal to the Charity Tribunal. All five of the

:13:40.:13:44.

measures outlined are essential to protecting the interests and

:13:45.:13:48.

reputation of the vast majority of charities run by people of great

:13:49.:13:53.

integrity. The Charity commission was closely involved in developing

:13:54.:13:59.

the powers and fully supports them. Independent research for the Charity

:14:00.:14:03.

commission found 92% of charities reported new tougher powers for the

:14:04.:14:11.

regulator. We also intend to remove clause nine of the Bill which was

:14:12.:14:17.

added at reports stage in the Lords. We have serious concerns about the

:14:18.:14:21.

unintended consequences of clause nine because it puts complex case

:14:22.:14:29.

law into a single statutory provision and imposes a major new

:14:30.:14:32.

regulation on the commission. Clause nine was not proposed because of

:14:33.:14:37.

concerns about charities in general are in a narrow attempt by the other

:14:38.:14:42.

place to underline the government's manifesto commitment to extend the

:14:43.:14:46.

right to buy. It is regrettable that the bill with widespread support was

:14:47.:14:51.

used in this week and we cannot allow it to stand. I would ask we

:14:52.:14:56.

consider the matter elsewhere. Let me turn to the challenge of

:14:57.:15:01.

regulating charity fundraising which has already been raised. We are one

:15:02.:15:07.

of the most generous countries in the world when it comes to charity

:15:08.:15:12.

fundraising giving. But when people want to give the do not want to be

:15:13.:15:20.

bullied or harassed into doing so. A voluntary donation has to be

:15:21.:15:25.

voluntary. We saw the sad case of Britain's longest serving poppy

:15:26.:15:31.

seller, for years she was harassed with phone calls and calls for money

:15:32.:15:36.

and charities for years had taken her details and swap them with other

:15:37.:15:41.

charities. In one month alone she apparently received 267 charity

:15:42.:15:49.

letters and sadly, since then, more cases of unscrupulous fundraising

:15:50.:15:52.

practices had come to light and we must act. We began I asking for a

:15:53.:15:58.

review of fundraising over the summer backed by a cross-party panel

:15:59.:16:03.

of peers and I want to thank them for their work. He recommended the

:16:04.:16:08.

new tougher framework of self-regulation and we are working

:16:09.:16:11.

with charities to deliver it. The Lord of Yarm I've will review the

:16:12.:16:22.

independent body. It will be able to adjudicate against any organisation

:16:23.:16:26.

undertaking charity fundraising. The body will be accompanied by a

:16:27.:16:29.

fundraising preference service similar to the Telephone preference

:16:30.:16:33.

service which would give the public heater control over their consent to

:16:34.:16:40.

receive fundraising request. Next it would inhibit contract is from

:16:41.:16:45.

raising fundraising attempts unless the contract and explains how they

:16:46.:16:49.

will protect people from undue pressure and set out how compliance

:16:50.:16:54.

will be monitored by the charity and will require large charities to

:16:55.:16:58.

include a section in the trustees annual report about the fundraising

:16:59.:17:03.

undertaken by or on their half. This will include an explanation of how

:17:04.:17:08.

the protect the public in general and vulnerable people in particular

:17:09.:17:12.

from undue pressures and other who practices. I will give way. Can I

:17:13.:17:19.

take this opportunity to inform the House that, of course, the public

:17:20.:17:28.

constitution are fears committee is concluding an enquiry into

:17:29.:17:31.

charitable fundraising alongside the enquiry into Kids Company we are

:17:32.:17:40.

very much concentrating on the conduct of trustees in these matters

:17:41.:17:47.

and the responsibility of trustees to run and oversee and support

:17:48.:17:51.

charitable organisations that reflect their values in their

:17:52.:17:57.

operations as much of the dudes in their objections. We are making

:17:58.:18:00.

recommendations around that because it might be insufficient to rely on

:18:01.:18:07.

processes and instructions to make sure things are F or clay and

:18:08.:18:13.

properly run. I welcome that the review and I hope that during the

:18:14.:18:17.

passage of this bill through this House we can consider and we're

:18:18.:18:23.

appropriate take on board any of the recommendations that improve the

:18:24.:18:29.

bill and I am glad that the work of the committee is happening

:18:30.:18:36.

concurrently and no doubt that recommendations, I hope, can come

:18:37.:18:38.

forward in time for them to be considered for this bill. How can we

:18:39.:18:45.

make more explicit the amount of money spent on management overhead,

:18:46.:18:53.

in particular the 18th two ?120 per direct debit set up that goes to

:18:54.:18:58.

chugging agencies? That needs to be made clear to people as that is an

:18:59.:19:03.

average the first year of any direct debit set up in favour of the

:19:04.:19:06.

charity. At the moment we pull our not clear about how much of their

:19:07.:19:11.

generosity is being expended on management overall and this practice

:19:12.:19:19.

in particular. I am a great fan of transparency and a supporter of

:19:20.:19:22.

transparency across government. I think we should look here fully at

:19:23.:19:28.

whether further transparency can be brought to charities and how it can

:19:29.:19:34.

be best delivered. I have no doubt transparency begins at home for

:19:35.:19:38.

charities and best practice is to be widely transparent right their

:19:39.:19:44.

operations. The is a question on whether we should do more and Ian

:19:45.:19:47.

are balanced arguments in both directions. That is something we

:19:48.:19:51.

should consider as we go through the stages of this bill. I am grateful

:19:52.:19:59.

to him for giving way. Is there something in this new power that

:20:00.:20:05.

gives to charities that apart from the original charity ambitions and

:20:06.:20:10.

disproportionate funding and campaigning organisations? We took

:20:11.:20:14.

action towards the end of the last Parliament in insulating that the

:20:15.:20:20.

legal framework around charities and other organisations, ensures that

:20:21.:20:27.

they do not cross over into direct partisan political work. The reason

:20:28.:20:33.

a review is under way as to how that lobbying ill, the lobbying act in

:20:34.:20:37.

the House had worked, Ian are questions as to whether it needs to

:20:38.:20:42.

go further. The best place to deal with those is indeed a view and

:20:43.:20:49.

scrutiny of the legislation now that it is in action. I understand the

:20:50.:20:53.

concerns that the honourable member, my honourable friend, puts.

:20:54.:20:57.

It is important that the review we have and fully considers the impact

:20:58.:21:02.

that the legislation we passed only in the last year as already

:21:03.:21:10.

happened. We regard the Etherington package in this ill, including the

:21:11.:21:17.

fundraising preference service and a move to opt in for further contact

:21:18.:21:21.

as the minimum necessary to rebuild public trust. We are proposing that

:21:22.:21:28.

this regulation of fundraising happens on a self-regulatory basis

:21:29.:21:32.

but self-regulation must implement the reviews recommendations in full

:21:33.:21:39.

and some people have rightly asked what will happen if self-regulation

:21:40.:21:43.

feels? We want it to work but we are clear practices must change. At

:21:44.:21:49.

committee stage we intend to bring forward amendments that will

:21:50.:21:53.

strengthen the government's powers to intervene if the self-regulation

:21:54.:22:00.

feels. Predatory fundraising targeted at vulnerable people is

:22:01.:22:04.

wrong. It has shaken public confidence in charities and we are

:22:05.:22:05.

determined to stamp it out. I am most grateful to him for being

:22:06.:22:16.

so generous and I regret that I cannot stage take part in this

:22:17.:22:21.

debate. The House will need to know that we're going to produce report

:22:22.:22:25.

in January in good time for the conclusion of this bill. Before he

:22:26.:22:28.

leaves the matter of fundraising, could he bear in mind the concerns

:22:29.:22:36.

that many people have about some charities which raise a substantial

:22:37.:22:41.

part of their income from foreign sources, and that the security

:22:42.:22:46.

services are concerned that this, organisations might posing as

:22:47.:22:51.

charities, might be receiving funds from abroad for nefarious purposes.

:22:52.:22:55.

Is this something that he will perhaps consider bringing in to the

:22:56.:22:59.

Bill to deal with at a later stage in the passage of this Bill, because

:23:00.:23:04.

I know it is something that also concerns the Charity Commission? The

:23:05.:23:08.

chairman of the Select Committee need not apologise, he can intervene

:23:09.:23:11.

on me as many times as he likes and I will always seek to take his

:23:12.:23:16.

interventions. Otherwise he will seek to get me in front of him in

:23:17.:23:20.

some other way! But on the substantive point that he raises,

:23:21.:23:25.

and this is a concern that has been raised with us, and we want to look

:23:26.:23:32.

at it in more detail, and consider the matter as the Bill passes

:23:33.:23:37.

through the House. I want now to move on to the opportunities that

:23:38.:23:41.

were trying to open up in this Bill. We want to allow charities to fulfil

:23:42.:23:48.

their mission by providing a new power of social investment. Social

:23:49.:23:51.

investment seeks a positive social impact and a financial return,

:23:52.:23:56.

trying to make money go further. It is a huge and growing chance for UK

:23:57.:24:01.

charities to make more of their assets in a field where the UK is

:24:02.:24:07.

already the world leader. In 2014, the Law Commission conducted a

:24:08.:24:10.

review of charities' social investment powers. They found a lack

:24:11.:24:14.

of clarity around charities' social investment powers and duties, and

:24:15.:24:22.

concluded this could be deterring some charities from getting involved

:24:23.:24:25.

in what I think is an exciting new field. UK charities currently hold

:24:26.:24:28.

assets of over ?80 billion, but they have only made social investment of

:24:29.:24:32.

around ?100 million. And we think that with the right support that

:24:33.:24:36.

market could double over the next few years. This Bill will ensure

:24:37.:24:40.

that more charities have a chance to take full advantage of social

:24:41.:24:45.

investment, should they so wish. It removes the existing uncertainty by

:24:46.:24:47.

providing us with the civic new power to make social investments. --

:24:48.:24:53.

by providing a specific new power. It insures that also shall

:24:54.:24:57.

investments are made in the best interests of the charity, allowing

:24:58.:25:00.

charities to make investments with the jewel aide of achieving their

:25:01.:25:04.

mission and four following a financial return. It is the way of

:25:05.:25:07.

the future, and it is happening here in Britain, and we want and

:25:08.:25:11.

supported to go further. Madam Deputy Speaker, the work that

:25:12.:25:15.

charities do transcends politics and unites all sides of this House. We

:25:16.:25:19.

want all charities to enjoy the very highest level of public trust and

:25:20.:25:24.

esteem, and the generosity this brings. By delivering a more

:25:25.:25:29.

effective regulator, by tackling unscrupulous fundraising and by

:25:30.:25:33.

unleashing the power of social investment, this Bill will

:25:34.:25:36.

strengthen that trust, and allow charities to do more with that

:25:37.:25:40.

generosity. And I commend it to the House. The question is that the Bill

:25:41.:25:50.

be now read a second time. An attorney. It is my privilege to

:25:51.:25:55.

respond to this bill at its second reading, as shadow civil society

:25:56.:26:03.

Minister. I would like to thank them for the open and corporative way in

:26:04.:26:07.

which they have sought to engage with us. I would like to thank all

:26:08.:26:10.

the civil servants involved in drafting this bill, and all these

:26:11.:26:13.

charities and organisations who have contributed to it development and to

:26:14.:26:18.

our understanding. I would also like to thank all the noble Lords in the

:26:19.:26:22.

other Place, who have used their customary wisdom and experience to

:26:23.:26:25.

refine and improve this bill as it went through its process. This is a

:26:26.:26:30.

good and important Bill, and we on these benches welcome it. There is

:26:31.:26:34.

some room for improvement, of course, and I will come into that in

:26:35.:26:38.

my speech. But its objectives are to be welcomed. We all know the vital

:26:39.:26:42.

role that charities play in holding a strong and flourishing civil

:26:43.:26:46.

society. Thousands of people around the country give up their time every

:26:47.:26:50.

day as trustees and volunteers, and thousands more depend on the vital

:26:51.:26:54.

services that they provide. As the Minister has said, charities change

:26:55.:26:59.

and they save lives. They support the poorest and most vulnerable.

:27:00.:27:02.

They pick up the pieces of the social and economic failures that we

:27:03.:27:06.

see. They heal, they tend the sick, they bring dignity in old age, and

:27:07.:27:11.

they give children the best start in life. We owe it to all of them to

:27:12.:27:16.

provide a secure and robust regulatory environment which can

:27:17.:27:20.

inspire confidence and allow the sector to flourish. We note the

:27:21.:27:24.

sector has had a difficult year. The regulation of the sector has come

:27:25.:27:28.

under increasing scrutiny, and we have seen high profile cases that

:27:29.:27:31.

have been deeply concerning. We have seen some poor governance, we have

:27:32.:27:36.

seen financial mismanagement, we have seen some concerning

:27:37.:27:38.

fundraising methods that the Minister has sat out. These cases

:27:39.:27:43.

are extremely rare, but they are also deeply disappointing to the

:27:44.:27:46.

rest of the charitable sector. But it is important to the rest of the

:27:47.:27:48.

charitable sector. But it is important nonetheless that we

:27:49.:27:50.

support and encourage the confidence in the wider sector by coming down

:27:51.:27:55.

on any abuse, and that is why we welcome this bill. It has been good

:27:56.:27:59.

to see the sector itself step up to the plate to tackle so many of these

:28:00.:28:03.

concerns, and it is vital we play our part in supporting them in this

:28:04.:28:07.

process by giving them the legislative and regulatory

:28:08.:28:10.

environment that they need. It is vital we get the right balance

:28:11.:28:13.

between a strong and sound regulatory environment that ensures

:28:14.:28:17.

trust, and one which also allows charities the freedom to innovate,

:28:18.:28:21.

to fund raise, to be innovative and enterprising. And, crucially, to be

:28:22.:28:29.

effective in delivering their social aims and objectives. So we welcome

:28:30.:28:31.

the core aims of this Bill. To protect stronger protections for

:28:32.:28:36.

charities in England and Wales from individuals were unfit to be charity

:28:37.:28:39.

trustees, this is vital to prevent abuse and it's all good governance.

:28:40.:28:43.

Secondly, we support the measure is to equip the Charity Commission with

:28:44.:28:49.

new powers to tackle abuse more effectively and efficiently. The

:28:50.:28:52.

sector needs to be able to respond quickly and decisively to any

:28:53.:28:55.

concerns raised, so that we can ensure confidence in the sector.

:28:56.:28:59.

Further clarification is required though, and we will work with the

:29:00.:29:03.

Minister to resolve these that committee. I want to put on record

:29:04.:29:06.

at this point my pleasure to hear the Minister say that the Government

:29:07.:29:10.

will use the committee stage to look again at fundraising, and whether

:29:11.:29:14.

self-regulation is efficient, and what steps we can take if

:29:15.:29:18.

self-regulation fails. We also welcome the aim to give charities a

:29:19.:29:23.

new power to make social investment. While some already doing this, it is

:29:24.:29:26.

important that we give them the reassurance to enable them to do so.

:29:27.:29:30.

We know that one in three British consumers will pay more for products

:29:31.:29:33.

with positive social or environmental outcomes, and it is

:29:34.:29:37.

important that we enable the charitable sector to encourage this.

:29:38.:29:41.

However, there are some areas in which we believe this Bill can

:29:42.:29:44.

continue to be improved, and we look to work with a government back row

:29:45.:29:47.

during the progress of this bill through committee to do so. We'll be

:29:48.:29:51.

seeking to discuss the following points. Firstly, as the Minister has

:29:52.:29:55.

or dimension, the freedom to speak and engage in political discourse.

:29:56.:29:59.

-- has already mentioned. We continue to oppose the lobbying act,

:30:00.:30:03.

and intend to use the passage of this Bill to campaign and speak out

:30:04.:30:07.

on issues in line with their objectives. It is so often charities

:30:08.:30:12.

that end up picking up the pieces of our policy failures, and he is vital

:30:13.:30:15.

that we give them the right to campaign, to campaign on their

:30:16.:30:18.

issues and to challenge and hold us to account. This is a key part of

:30:19.:30:23.

the strong and healthy democratic exercise. Secondly, cause nine, the

:30:24.:30:29.

disposal of assets. The clause sets out that the Charity Commission

:30:30.:30:33.

should ensure that independent charities are not compelled to use

:30:34.:30:36.

or dispose of their assets in a way which is inconsistent with their

:30:37.:30:39.

charitable purpose. We will continue to defend this close to give Hauser

:30:40.:30:46.

housing associations not to be bullied by a government determined

:30:47.:30:51.

to sell off and run down affordable housing. We think it is right for

:30:52.:30:54.

charities have the freedom to dispose of their assets in the way

:30:55.:30:57.

that they see fit. Thirdly, the protection of children and

:30:58.:31:00.

vulnerable adults. We have the opportunity in this Bill to better

:31:01.:31:04.

protect children and vulnerable people, we are grateful that the

:31:05.:31:08.

Government looked at the proposals in the other place to include it

:31:09.:31:11.

people on the sex offenders register as being barred from being trustees,

:31:12.:31:17.

and we'll be looking at other measures in committee stage.

:31:18.:31:21.

Finally, clarifying some powers of the Charity Commission. The Bill

:31:22.:31:24.

seeks to strengthen the powers of the Charity Commission, and we there

:31:25.:31:30.

should be strong supported regulator of charities that acts fairly and

:31:31.:31:34.

has the appropriate powers. Ultimately, the regulator must

:31:35.:31:37.

preserve public trust and confidence in charities. However, there are

:31:38.:31:40.

some provisions in the bill that could potentially threaten the

:31:41.:31:43.

independence of charities. The Charity Commission could have the

:31:44.:31:46.

power to give warnings to a charity, for example. There are no objections

:31:47.:31:50.

to this in principle, but the current drafting does raise some

:31:51.:31:54.

concerns with the sector. For example, the commission can issue a

:31:55.:31:57.

warning if they think there has been a breach of duty or trust or other

:31:58.:32:03.

conduct or mismanagement. It is possible that the commission could

:32:04.:32:06.

issue a warning regarding a relatively low level of concern. It

:32:07.:32:09.

could be possible that an earlier disagreement between the trustees

:32:10.:32:12.

and the commission as to whether that one is justified. There should

:32:13.:32:15.

be safeguards attached to the issuing of a warning, and failure to

:32:16.:32:20.

comply with a warning should not in itself have significant

:32:21.:32:23.

consequences, which could be disastrous for charities. I hope we

:32:24.:32:26.

can continue to discuss this further in committee. In addition, the

:32:27.:32:30.

commission should give adequate notice of their intention to issue a

:32:31.:32:33.

statutory warning. These are issues which should be discussed during the

:32:34.:32:41.

committee stage. There should also be consideration for right of appeal

:32:42.:32:45.

to the Charity Tribunal, considering the implications are warning would

:32:46.:32:48.

have on the Charity in question I look forward to working with the

:32:49.:32:54.

ministers at the committee stage on this issues. We believe all of these

:32:55.:32:58.

areas can be discussed and looked at in more detail as we take this Bill

:32:59.:33:03.

forward into committee. This is an important Bill. It has room for

:33:04.:33:06.

improvement, but offers a great deal to build trust and confidence in the

:33:07.:33:10.

charitable sector, and that is why this side of the House will be

:33:11.:33:13.

supporting it, and I look forward to working with the ministers in

:33:14.:33:20.

committee. Fiona Bruce. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I support the

:33:21.:33:24.

rationale behind this bill, which I think it is of great importance to

:33:25.:33:30.

many members of the public. And its purposes are indeed important to

:33:31.:33:34.

protect the public from unscrupulous fundraisers, and stop individuals

:33:35.:33:39.

from running charities, abusing them. I agree action should be taken

:33:40.:33:46.

in such cases, I agree that the Charity Commission should have

:33:47.:33:47.

appropriate powers where misconduct is proven to have occurred. I'm

:33:48.:33:53.

pleased to note that the National Council for voluntary organisations

:33:54.:33:58.

says "it is widely acknowledged that deliberate wrongdoing in charities

:33:59.:34:01.

is extremely rare". It is important we remember that when discussing

:34:02.:34:06.

this Bill. There are many millions of people across this country who

:34:07.:34:10.

devote themselves and give selflessly of their time to

:34:11.:34:15.

charities, and it is very important that we do nothing that in anyway

:34:16.:34:20.

inhibits them from engaging and contributing to this important part

:34:21.:34:27.

of our civic society. With that motivation, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:34:28.:34:32.

want to highlight some concerns that I do have about them, in particular

:34:33.:34:37.

regarding some of the new powers, which I hope will be helpful and

:34:38.:34:40.

parts could be explored further in committee stage. I'm speaking parts

:34:41.:34:45.

with reference particularly to the new measures, clause three, clause

:34:46.:34:53.

11, and the wide ranging wording of this part, which I am concerned

:34:54.:35:01.

could severely curbed civic engagement, deter people from

:35:02.:35:05.

wanting to be appointed as an officer to a charity, and I have

:35:06.:35:11.

over 30 years' experience of working in private practice, where charity

:35:12.:35:18.

law and the representation of charities is a particular part of

:35:19.:35:21.

that practice, and I know that over these years it has become

:35:22.:35:26.

increasingly difficult to get individuals to step up to the

:35:27.:35:34.

plate, and to agree to an appointment in a charity. It's often

:35:35.:35:39.

one of the challenges that new charities have. Interestingly,

:35:40.:35:45.

particularly the appointment of treasurer. I come to this debate

:35:46.:35:50.

with over three decades of practical experience of working in this field.

:35:51.:35:54.

And very much wanted to insure that we encourage and do not deter very

:35:55.:36:00.

responsible people that this Bill is seeking to support. Clause 11, I

:36:01.:36:08.

note its new powers to suspend and disqualify has a very extensive list

:36:09.:36:14.

of reasons within it. But I note that this could in future be varied

:36:15.:36:19.

by ministers laying new regulations, subject to those regulations being

:36:20.:36:24.

consulted upon, and we all know in this House are consultations can

:36:25.:36:27.

often, with the best will in the world on the part of Government, can

:36:28.:36:32.

only reach a few members of the public, and only be scrutinised

:36:33.:36:36.

within a few members in committee here. I have concerns about the very

:36:37.:36:39.

excessive powers which are being granted, if this bill is passed, but

:36:40.:36:45.

which perhaps, if extended, could actually come to embrace actions

:36:46.:36:52.

which were never perhaps fully scrutinised or intended by many

:36:53.:36:55.

members of this place. So I enter that caveat regarding that right for

:36:56.:37:02.

reasons for disqualification to be extended merely by ministers laying

:37:03.:37:09.

new regulations. Can I now look at clause three? It gives immense power

:37:10.:37:14.

to the Charity Commission indeed, the commission in its policy paper

:37:15.:37:17.

of late 2015 called a significant new power.

:37:18.:37:25.

I am concerned that the wording of the Bill says, the Charity

:37:26.:37:33.

Commission shall issue a warning to a charity trustee or trustee for a

:37:34.:37:38.

charity who it considers has committed some form of misconduct or

:37:39.:37:43.

mismanagement. Who it considers, that is a wide-ranging phrase. I

:37:44.:37:52.

note also, within subsection two, sub-clause two of clause one. At

:37:53.:37:59.

that point in time, they issue a warning which it can publish. The

:38:00.:38:06.

charity or the person subject to that warning can respond, but the

:38:07.:38:13.

publication may well have already occurred. The damage to the

:38:14.:38:20.

reputation of the charity, to the individual and to the charitable

:38:21.:38:26.

work in general, I'm concerned about the fact there is an opportunity to

:38:27.:38:30.

publish without an opportunity to respond. If I am incorrect in that,

:38:31.:38:35.

I would be grateful if the Minister could correct me on that point. I

:38:36.:38:44.

would like to turn to some of the conditions for this. It will

:38:45.:38:55.

interpret some of the conditions, including undermining the confidence

:38:56.:39:01.

of the public. It is that which I want to highlight now. Conduct which

:39:02.:39:10.

might damage public trust. Simply on that one criteria, the charity

:39:11.:39:18.

emission could take steps to act and issue, as I say, the warning I have

:39:19.:39:24.

referred to. The Charity Commission says, on its own interpretation of

:39:25.:39:31.

the Bill, but it will use a space for this. The knowledge of the

:39:32.:39:38.

service it takes into public trust. I'm concerned about that. Does this

:39:39.:39:43.

mean, for a double, that the Charity Commission can carry out a poll,

:39:44.:39:48.

asking people for certain views, whether it would make the public

:39:49.:39:51.

more less likely to trust that individual or that charity? What of

:39:52.:39:59.

those views were very much in the minority in our society today? What

:40:00.:40:02.

if they were views that were very much opposed to current government

:40:03.:40:06.

policy? Perhaps views on foreign policy. That is quite a broad

:40:07.:40:13.

ranging power that the Charity Commission has, without, as far as I

:40:14.:40:19.

can see, any requirement for any independent review from government

:40:20.:40:24.

before that warning is issued, simply that there is some activity

:40:25.:40:28.

which an individual has undertaken or something which an individual has

:40:29.:40:34.

said which is contrary, perhaps, to the views that are held by the

:40:35.:40:37.

majority of the public who respond to a survey. When the Bill talks

:40:38.:40:46.

about any conduct, any conduct, does that mean conduct which someone

:40:47.:40:53.

undertook several years before becoming a trustee? All of us know

:40:54.:40:58.

that views can change over time. Many of us may well have expressed

:40:59.:41:03.

views on years ago which have changed. How is an individual going

:41:04.:41:08.

to be protected from action which could be undertaken which could have

:41:09.:41:12.

incredibly far-reaching repercussions for that individual,

:41:13.:41:17.

if steps are taken using this legislation? I want to just

:41:18.:41:24.

highlight, because I don't think this is merely theoretical, how

:41:25.:41:31.

serious this is, by reminding the House of the challenges that the

:41:32.:41:35.

Plymouth Reverend had in the last Parliament regarding the threat to

:41:36.:41:40.

their charitable registration because of the interpretation of the

:41:41.:41:44.

words, public benefit, within the 2006 charities Bill. -- Charities

:41:45.:41:53.

Bill. We have got an excellent head of the committee and I think he is a

:41:54.:42:01.

man who has wisdom and expresses his opinions and makes his deliberations

:42:02.:42:07.

and sessions very carefully and with great common sense, if I may say. It

:42:08.:42:10.

is following his appointment as a chairman of the commission that I

:42:11.:42:16.

felt that there was some appropriate approach taken towards the problem

:42:17.:42:23.

that they found themselves in when their charitable status was

:42:24.:42:28.

challenged, it went to tribunal. It was very serious, they had to engage

:42:29.:42:31.

lawyers. It would affect over 300 churches. These are long established

:42:32.:42:40.

denominations across the entire country. This challenge they had was

:42:41.:42:43.

a very common serious -- a very, a very common serious -- a very,

:42:44.:42:53.

very serious one. What they had to do, and I mentioned this, and it is

:42:54.:42:58.

to their credit, in the past, they had carried out an enormous amount

:42:59.:43:06.

of voluntary work without shouting about it. What they had to do was to

:43:07.:43:13.

start to produce documentation, and they produced some excellent

:43:14.:43:19.

booklets, stating the public benefit, which they have carried on

:43:20.:43:23.

doing. For example, with disaster relief. Eventually, as we know,

:43:24.:43:31.

there worse a major debate in this House. Ireland one Westminster Hall

:43:32.:43:35.

debate where there were over 40 mounds of Parliament who spoke up

:43:36.:43:39.

for them, to say that this action should never have been taken based

:43:40.:43:43.

on the subjective interpretation of the words "public benefit". That

:43:44.:43:53.

action was withdrawn at the charitable status of the Plymouth

:43:54.:44:01.

Brethren and others waiting for the decision was secure. Perhaps a

:44:02.:44:10.

further consideration, if we talk about minority views undermining

:44:11.:44:18.

public confidence, where would the suffragettes have been in all of

:44:19.:44:23.

this years ago? Our society today contains a wide range of views and

:44:24.:44:28.

beliefs. They are passionately held. They often very visibly held,

:44:29.:44:36.

disagreement is frequent as we saw yesterday. It is the cornerstone of

:44:37.:44:42.

a free society. We know that social media can be called in this

:44:43.:44:47.

respect, and many people can despise or reject people simply based on

:44:48.:44:52.

sincerely held but different or minority views. I think it is very

:44:53.:44:58.

important that we ensure that genuine people with genuinely held

:44:59.:45:05.

minority views, and that is what charities are for, to protect the

:45:06.:45:08.

vulnerable and minorities, that they are protected from the unintended

:45:09.:45:16.

consequences, and I'm sure they are unintended, of this legislation. I

:45:17.:45:20.

touch on different faith groups. Many religions in this country hold

:45:21.:45:27.

views that are different from the others. Some of them are strongly

:45:28.:45:30.

rejected. We have to look at the view of creationism. We now know

:45:31.:45:34.

that in schools, this cannot be taught as a scientific fact but it

:45:35.:45:40.

can still, one would hope, be expanded as a belief in R E lessons.

:45:41.:46:01.

If it was seen that it could be undermining public others, that is

:46:02.:46:04.

one example. Different views on sexual ethics... I'm not talking

:46:05.:46:11.

about minorities here. I know of a Church of England vicar who spoke

:46:12.:46:14.

with me only in the last few weeks that he had gone into a school, he

:46:15.:46:19.

was speaking, and this is our state church, speaking about a particular

:46:20.:46:25.

view from a particular, biblical aspect, and he was given the

:46:26.:46:28.

distinct impression, please don't come in and talk about this issue

:46:29.:46:31.

again. The chilling effect that legislation can have on free speech

:46:32.:46:40.

in our society on people with sincerely held but minority beliefs,

:46:41.:46:43.

we must ensure that we protect from this. I'm turning now, if I may,

:46:44.:46:51.

Madam Deputy Speaker, to the connection to this Bill and the

:46:52.:46:58.

dogma's counter extremism strategy. That links the new powers in this

:46:59.:47:05.

Bill with it. I understand that will stop I understand what the

:47:06.:47:10.

Government is seeking to do in ensuring that charities are not

:47:11.:47:17.

abused for extremist purposes. The problem is what is the definition of

:47:18.:47:24.

extremism? We don't appear to have a clear definition at present, and it

:47:25.:47:30.

is one which impacts on this Bill and could impact very negatively. I

:47:31.:47:36.

just want to, if I may, explore this issue a little further. In the

:47:37.:47:45.

counter extremism strategy document which the Government has put Ford,

:47:46.:47:49.

at least the information document, a claim Mizen is defined as the vocal

:47:50.:47:53.

or active opposition to a fundamental values, including

:47:54.:47:56.

democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and a mutual

:47:57.:48:01.

respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs. That sounds

:48:02.:48:12.

fine, but previous definitions had two all three additional words which

:48:13.:48:15.

now appear to be missing from that definition. Previous definitions of

:48:16.:48:19.

extreme as had the mutual respect and tolerance of those with

:48:20.:48:24.

different faiths and beliefs. This is one of our fundamental beliefs.

:48:25.:48:40.

The mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and

:48:41.:48:43.

beliefs. It is entirely right that we should respect for the people,

:48:44.:48:47.

including those with other beliefs, and the right to respect... And we

:48:48.:48:55.

respect their right to hold those beliefs. We have to speak very

:48:56.:49:11.

carefully if we can take this -- ... If I say that I respect

:49:12.:49:16.

Scientologists but I do not respect Scientology, so I am respecting

:49:17.:49:21.

those who hold different police but I am not respecting the belief of

:49:22.:49:29.

Scientologists. This that make me an extremist? We have to look carefully

:49:30.:49:34.

at the way in which we define extremes. It is interesting to note

:49:35.:49:37.

that the Government has yet to provide a statutory definition of

:49:38.:49:46.

nonviolent extremism. Free speech is something which we all value so

:49:47.:49:54.

highly in this House, and a free society is based on disagreement and

:49:55.:50:01.

beach or respect. I believe it is strengthened, not compromised when I

:50:02.:50:09.

respect a fellow this is but not necessarily their belief. I refer

:50:10.:50:13.

against to the suffragettes. We might also referred to the slavery

:50:14.:50:21.

issue. The wording of this definition is deeply troubling. We

:50:22.:50:25.

need to ensure that we clarified. Rather than combating extremism, we

:50:26.:50:30.

could end up contributing to the marginalisation, which feeds extras.

:50:31.:50:41.

Open dialogue in the society is necessary if we are to promote

:50:42.:50:45.

community cohesion. The role that favourite play in community

:50:46.:50:51.

cohesion, through its involvement in the voluntary sector, is staggering.

:50:52.:50:59.

The research earlier this year showed that faith groups could be ?3

:51:00.:51:02.

million towards social action and that unity is. That is just in

:51:03.:51:05.

monetary terms. I think the social cohesion that faith groups provide

:51:06.:51:13.

is unquantifiable. Thousands of churches run charity projects and

:51:14.:51:17.

have done for decades. I'm concerned that the removal of the main

:51:18.:51:23.

deterrents of those who hold faith views which in this society might

:51:24.:51:27.

not necessarily be popular, certainly with not be considered

:51:28.:51:31.

mainstream, could deny the charitable sector for decades of

:51:32.:51:45.

expertise. The decades I have had working illegal practice, working

:51:46.:51:51.

with the charitable sector, they are worried about becoming charitable

:51:52.:51:56.

trust is. I wonder if the Minister would look

:51:57.:52:01.

again at these powers for discoloured occasion because it is

:52:02.:52:03.

very interesting that he used the term, self-regulation. I would not

:52:04.:52:14.

like to become self exclusion or self discoloured occasion. That is

:52:15.:52:17.

the concern I have because these powers are so wide and broad, and we

:52:18.:52:21.

need to ensure that those thousands of experienced volunteers who are

:52:22.:52:26.

involved in the chart will sector are not deterred from being involved

:52:27.:52:32.

in society. That is not the governor's intention, I would be

:52:33.:52:36.

grateful if the Government would look at these concerns. They are, I

:52:37.:52:46.

am sure, unintended consequences will stop but they could cause

:52:47.:52:51.

marginalisation in a sector where we need them so vitally. That is

:52:52.:52:52.

something we cannot afford. I rise as the SNP spokesperson on

:52:53.:53:08.

the Cabinet Office to make a brief contribution to the debate. You will

:53:09.:53:12.

see from the benches behind me the absence of Scottish members of

:53:13.:53:15.

Parliament in this discussion. Please do not take that as

:53:16.:53:19.

disinterest, it is merely an acknowledgement of the fact that

:53:20.:53:23.

provisions in this Bill do not apply in Scotland and therefore our

:53:24.:53:27.

constituents would be not encumbered by them. That said, we do have a few

:53:28.:53:33.

observations to make on the discussion at hand. I note that this

:53:34.:53:39.

is a certified Bill, of course. And you will note that there is no

:53:40.:53:42.

willingness of Scottish members to take part in the discussion anyway,

:53:43.:53:47.

so perhaps this could serve as an illustration of whether or not the

:53:48.:53:51.

English Votes For English Laws amendments to standing orders were

:53:52.:53:55.

really necessary to burden this House. You have to be constructive

:53:56.:53:58.

and help the Government if you wish to try and speed up the passage of

:53:59.:54:03.

this legislation, I can assure you that we will not seek to have any

:54:04.:54:08.

further contribution or influence in the matter under discussion, and you

:54:09.:54:12.

can dispense with the legislative consent stage should that become

:54:13.:54:16.

necessary. There is a different system in Scotland, obviously, and I

:54:17.:54:20.

would like to place on record to pay tribute to the office of the

:54:21.:54:24.

Scottish charities regulator, Oscar, which, since 2005, has provided

:54:25.:54:31.

support to 23.5 thousand charities in Scotland of all shapes and sizes,

:54:32.:54:35.

and in particular to their trustees. I have some personal experience of

:54:36.:54:39.

this, because I served for seven years as a trustee of the Edinburgh

:54:40.:54:44.

Festival fringe Society, one of the larger organisations in Scotland

:54:45.:54:47.

which benefited greatly from the support given by Oscar. That said,

:54:48.:54:51.

even though it is a different situation, we live in the same

:54:52.:54:55.

island, and the regulations that apply in England and Wales to set

:54:56.:54:59.

some of the context with which we will operate in Scotland, so we have

:55:00.:55:03.

an interest in what happens in this House in terms of the legislation in

:55:04.:55:11.

England and Wales. Of course, yes. It is only a very quick point, not

:55:12.:55:16.

many people will be aware, in fact I wasn't myself until about six months

:55:17.:55:21.

ago, that in Scotland, every charity is registered with the regulatory

:55:22.:55:24.

body, whereas of course in England and Wales, many smaller charities

:55:25.:55:29.

are not. Does the honourable gentleman have a view on that? I

:55:30.:55:33.

actually think it is of relevance to the wider debate. All I can tell you

:55:34.:55:39.

is that it works well in Scotland, and we do tend to take an approach

:55:40.:55:44.

that if it isn't broke, don't fix it. I will make a comment on some

:55:45.:55:51.

specifics in a moment. I want to welcome the Minister's support for

:55:52.:55:55.

the role of charities in our society throughout the country. I would say

:55:56.:56:00.

that it is important we recognise that people involved in charities

:56:01.:56:03.

and the organisations themselves are not just there as service providers

:56:04.:56:08.

to deliver things, they also are a valuable source of information and

:56:09.:56:13.

opinion that can inform many of our social policies. And I would say

:56:14.:56:16.

that the Government may be, despite its support, has some bridges to

:56:17.:56:20.

mend with the charitable sector in some areas of social policy, in

:56:21.:56:26.

particular we have more than 60 disability organisations and

:56:27.:56:30.

charities which are concerned about the Government's changes to

:56:31.:56:33.

disability benefits, and contrast that with the situation in Scotland,

:56:34.:56:37.

where the leading children's charities have actually praised the

:56:38.:56:41.

Scottish Government in amending some of the regulations. Turning to the

:56:42.:56:45.

Bill itself, there are some causes in the Bill where in many ways you

:56:46.:56:50.

are bringing the situation in England and Wales into line with the

:56:51.:56:55.

situation in Scotland. I think it was caused to that relates to the

:56:56.:57:02.

time limit on -- Klaus two. These provisions apply in Scotland in more

:57:03.:57:09.

or less the same way. Clause ten notes the criteria for qualification

:57:10.:57:12.

of trustees -- disqualification. You are going a lot further than the

:57:13.:57:16.

situation in Scotland. Our approach would be to let you get on with that

:57:17.:57:23.

and see how it works out. I would like to gently remind the honourable

:57:24.:57:29.

gentleman he frequently is using the word you. Actually, in the first

:57:30.:57:33.

part of his speech, it was quite appropriate because he was in a way

:57:34.:57:37.

referring to the chair. But when he is referring to the Government, it

:57:38.:57:41.

is better to say the Government, not cover you, or the Minister, because

:57:42.:57:47.

I will not take the blame as the chair. Tommy Sheppard. I stand

:57:48.:57:55.

corrected,'s. Of course, sometimes I use the word you in the Scottish

:57:56.:58:02.

vernacular to apply one. But I will try to refer to the Government. Some

:58:03.:58:06.

causes were you are bringing the situation into line somewhere you go

:58:07.:58:10.

further, and it would our intention to wait and see. There is a review

:58:11.:58:14.

and discussion underway in Scotland as well, which has come about in

:58:15.:58:17.

part because of the discussion that has taken place in England and

:58:18.:58:21.

Wales. Our main concern though would be on the whole area of the funding

:58:22.:58:26.

regulation. The regulations surrounding the ability of charities

:58:27.:58:32.

to raise money. Certainly the Scottish Council for Voluntary

:58:33.:58:36.

Organisations has expressed concern that the high profile cases in

:58:37.:58:42.

English charities about misuse of funds and in appropriate ways of

:58:43.:58:45.

raising funds actually will have an effect on charities in Scotland,

:58:46.:58:49.

even though they are not part of the same regulatory framework, because

:58:50.:58:51.

people will generally think that they will be tarred with the same

:58:52.:58:56.

brush, effectively. So there is a concern. We see no great move at the

:58:57.:59:01.

moment to change the funding regulation. We have essentially a

:59:02.:59:07.

self regulatory way of charitable fundraising regulation. And we

:59:08.:59:10.

probably would want to continue with that. But what I would say is that a

:59:11.:59:15.

discussion is underway in Scotland involving the charitable sector, and

:59:16.:59:18.

we are determined that whatever happens it will be something that is

:59:19.:59:22.

arrived at as a method of agreement, and the charity sector

:59:23.:59:26.

itself will be involved. I think it is a matter of debate as to whether

:59:27.:59:30.

or not we want to continue with self-regulation, or whether we see a

:59:31.:59:33.

role for the Government being more directly involved. Oviedo, ministers

:59:34.:59:37.

here have taken the view that they wish the Government to be more

:59:38.:59:44.

directly involved -- obviously. We will watch that with interest. And

:59:45.:59:49.

we wish you very well in your endeavours to improve the regulation

:59:50.:59:55.

of charities in England and Wales. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:59:56.:59:59.

am delighted to be able to speak today on this very important Bill,

:00:00.:00:02.

which I believe strengthens the governance and attacks are

:00:03.:00:07.

charities. Charities play an extremely -- protect such churches.

:00:08.:00:10.

They play an extremely important role, and we believe we are stronger

:00:11.:00:16.

for them. We would be poorer as a nation if we did not have our

:00:17.:00:21.

amazing charities. It is the hundreds of thousands of generous

:00:22.:00:23.

volunteers that really make a difference. 41% of people have

:00:24.:00:28.

reported taking part in volunteering at the last year. That is a massive

:00:29.:00:34.

21 million people across the UK. In fact, only three weeks ago, every

:00:35.:00:39.

member of my staff took days holiday and spent it following two in across

:00:40.:00:45.

the constituency as part of the inaugural volunteering day. When my

:00:46.:00:50.

staff volunteered at the homeless charity, I will talk more about that

:00:51.:00:54.

later. And then went on to help of street collections for Children in

:00:55.:00:58.

Need. Another volunteered at a church food bank, and helped serve

:00:59.:01:07.

two course lunch organised by a committee, which I thought was noble

:01:08.:01:12.

of her. A third member of my staff helped up the local hospice and

:01:13.:01:16.

joined tree top Garden club, that is a garden club which has just been

:01:17.:01:21.

awarded the hospice UK Garden of the year, so we are very proud of that

:01:22.:01:26.

award. And my senior caseworker sent the day at direct help and advice,

:01:27.:01:32.

which has just been awarded big lottery funding. Of course, I did

:01:33.:01:38.

some volunteering, too. I visited a local church to find out more about

:01:39.:01:41.

their outreach community projects. One of these was chair based

:01:42.:01:46.

exercises, which was a lot more energetic than it sounds. This

:01:47.:01:49.

offered more than just an exercise, it offered a chat over a cup of tea

:01:50.:01:54.

at the end of the session, and therefore it provided social

:01:55.:01:57.

inclusion, as well. My whole team really enjoyed our day, and we

:01:58.:02:01.

decided to make it an annual event, and we are really looking forward to

:02:02.:02:06.

next year's are awash volunteering day, working with even more local

:02:07.:02:10.

charities -- Erawan Shrine I am grateful to my honourable friend.

:02:11.:02:17.

Would she agree with me that in terms of charitable giving and

:02:18.:02:19.

volunteering, it is not just the giving but also what we as

:02:20.:02:24.

individuals, when we volunteer, when we give we also gained so much more

:02:25.:02:28.

from it, often in terms of the experience, getting to know

:02:29.:02:32.

different people. I thank my honourable friend for that

:02:33.:02:36.

intervention, and she is completely right. We have both experienced that

:02:37.:02:40.

with our time volunteering in Rwanda as part of our social action there,

:02:41.:02:44.

when we went we thought that we were going to give, but we learned so

:02:45.:02:49.

much, we benefited so much from that experience. Whether it is something

:02:50.:02:52.

of our social action there, when we went we thought that we were going

:02:53.:02:55.

to give, but we learned so much, we benefited so much from that

:02:56.:02:57.

experience. Whether it is something overseas or something but we learned

:02:58.:02:59.

so much, we benefited so much from that experience. Whether it is

:03:00.:03:01.

something overseas or something in R.N. Constituency, I know I feel

:03:02.:03:04.

very humble every time I go to a charity. -- our own constituency. We

:03:05.:03:07.

met on a charity volunteers -- other charity volunteers. Trustees play a

:03:08.:03:09.

very important role within the charity. In the past, I have been a

:03:10.:03:13.

trustee for two different charities. Before being appointed as a trustee

:03:14.:03:18.

on both occasions I went through a selection process and was put under

:03:19.:03:24.

scrutiny. It is only right, as trustees do hold very responsible

:03:25.:03:30.

roles. And sadly, we have heard some bad news stories recently,

:03:31.:03:33.

incidences where trustees may not have been quite as group Eulas as

:03:34.:03:37.

they should. This should not happen, as it reflects Bradley -- badly and

:03:38.:03:44.

undeservedly on charities across the board, even though they weren't

:03:45.:03:48.

involved. That is why this Bill aims to strengthen the governance, and

:03:49.:03:51.

gives more powers to the Charity Commission, to remove inappropriate

:03:52.:03:56.

trustees. I think my honourable friend mentioned this as well. The

:03:57.:04:02.

occurrence of regulatory abuse in charities is rare, as you pointed

:04:03.:04:06.

out, but it is vital that measures are in place to ensure the public

:04:07.:04:11.

and many charity volunteers do not lose confidence when incidences like

:04:12.:04:15.

that do happen. Another aspect of the Bill is to protect members of

:04:16.:04:23.

the public from the unscrupulous and unrelenting fundraisers. Once again,

:04:24.:04:26.

there have been disturbing stories in the media recently, which have

:04:27.:04:32.

ended up reflecting badly on every charity, and so many are just not

:04:33.:04:38.

involved in this sort of procedure. I thank the honourable lady

:04:39.:04:43.

forgiving way. Will she also agree, chugging also puts people off

:04:44.:04:47.

donating, particularly when we hear the sort of fees they receive from

:04:48.:04:51.

the donations they collect from public? I thank my honourable friend

:04:52.:04:54.

for that intervention completely agree. We see so many people on the

:04:55.:05:00.

streets, and you do avoid them. I think that affects the local

:05:01.:05:03.

shopkeepers as well, people get a bit fearful of what they are going

:05:04.:05:08.

to find on the High Street. But it also reflects in another way, in

:05:09.:05:12.

fact, my parents in their later years stopped donating to charities

:05:13.:05:16.

when those donations were traceable in anyway. This was a result of

:05:17.:05:19.

making one donation, and then getting phone call after phone call,

:05:20.:05:24.

trying to persuade them to set up direct debits. My parents were

:05:25.:05:30.

subject to just a fraction of the pressure at Olive Cook suffered,

:05:31.:05:32.

which ended in such an awful tragedy. With 44% of adults

:05:33.:05:38.

reportedly giving money to charitable causes every month, it is

:05:39.:05:43.

so important that donors feel they can make those donations freely, and

:05:44.:05:48.

also that their donation is being spent wisely. And I believe this

:05:49.:05:55.

Bill does both. Of course, our small local charities do not employ

:05:56.:05:58.

third-party professional fundraisers, but have to use their

:05:59.:06:01.

ingenuity to raise their funds. Members of this House have talked

:06:02.:06:10.

before about fundraising events at my local hospice. It is called Tree

:06:11.:06:16.

top writes amazing care in the local community. I have awarded prizes at

:06:17.:06:20.

their dog show, and taken part in a sponsored bike ride, taking in all

:06:21.:06:23.

their charity shops across Derbyshire, and I did that on a

:06:24.:06:28.

tandem. There is always something happening across my constituency,

:06:29.:06:31.

somewhere there a charity events going on. Last Saturday on went the

:06:32.:06:35.

Christmas fair, organised by a group of friends from the Community

:06:36.:06:39.

Hospital. When I got there I was delighted not just to see Father

:06:40.:06:44.

Christmas but also to seek there was a stall, as I knew that last

:06:45.:06:48.

Christmas they had been selling Christmas cakes that were made

:06:49.:06:52.

locally and were really tasty, and they have those cakes there again.

:06:53.:06:56.

It saved me trying to find the time, rather belatedly, to make my

:06:57.:07:01.

Christmas cake. At the Long Eaton Christmas lights switch on last

:07:02.:07:06.

Thursday, I was able to win on the Scouts' tombola, but every ticket

:07:07.:07:10.

was a winner! And also to buy some handmade Christmas tree decorations

:07:11.:07:17.

from the W Y stall. These make fantastic contributions to my local

:07:18.:07:21.

area, and it is much richer as a result.

:07:22.:07:25.

I did say I would come back to the trust, which is more than just a

:07:26.:07:35.

charity for homeless young man. It would provide the ideal vehicle for

:07:36.:07:45.

this charity. It would help the German move on further with their

:07:46.:07:49.

lives. As my right honourable friend come of the Minister, said, social

:07:50.:07:54.

investment is the way of the future. I'm delighted it forms part

:07:55.:07:58.

of this Bill. Madame deputies bigger, I believe this Bill will

:07:59.:08:04.

protect our many charities from an Scougall is behaviour and so

:08:05.:08:09.

maintain the confidence of the public, the confidence of the many

:08:10.:08:13.

donors and the confidence of the volunteers as well as those employed

:08:14.:08:19.

by the charities. I would like to ensure at committee stage that this

:08:20.:08:29.

in no way... That local charities will be penalised in no way as

:08:30.:08:34.

result of the changes. I like the way it provides a mechanism to

:08:35.:08:37.

enable charities to enable social investments that can be of great

:08:38.:08:42.

benefit to those they serve. I'm delighted to have been able to speak

:08:43.:08:46.

in support of this Bill today, with my reservation of its impact on

:08:47.:08:51.

small charities such as the ones I have talked about today.

:08:52.:09:04.

It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate on the Charities

:09:05.:09:13.

(Protection and Social Investment) Bill. Just a viewpoint on this.

:09:14.:09:19.

People do welcome the fact that the Government is taking action to

:09:20.:09:24.

prevent people who are unfit to become charity trustees becoming so

:09:25.:09:34.

for effectively. There are just a view aspects of detail. I think

:09:35.:09:40.

there is widespread agreement across the voluntary sector and the general

:09:41.:09:44.

public, very much recognising what the honourable lady said. The

:09:45.:10:00.

problem with predatory fundraising. There is a fundraising preference

:10:01.:10:06.

service which will be very important indeed. It is worth bearing in mind

:10:07.:10:10.

that across England and Wales, there are 943,000 trustees. I think we in

:10:11.:10:17.

this House bear some responsibility for making sure we don't scare them

:10:18.:10:21.

to death with regulation. The bulk of charities in this country, they

:10:22.:10:26.

are not like Kids Company, who appeared to have got away with a

:10:27.:10:31.

remarkable amount, we're talking about people who give up their time

:10:32.:10:35.

on management, committees... They often don't have much time to give

:10:36.:10:40.

up. We don't often do that well in terms of diversity of trustees will

:10:41.:10:45.

stop the average age is 57 and only about one in 200 was between the

:10:46.:10:51.

ages of 16 and 24. I am rather reluctant that if we do anything

:10:52.:10:57.

that scares too many off. Having said that, there is a case that we

:10:58.:11:06.

come back to what Lodge Hodgson -- Lord Hodgson suggested 80 years ago,

:11:07.:11:11.

in terms of time-limits for larger charities. It would be ridiculous

:11:12.:11:16.

for the village will committee and many small management groups. That

:11:17.:11:23.

is something I hope could be considered at some time as the Bill

:11:24.:11:31.

is going through. Just a couple of other small points. In clause one,

:11:32.:11:38.

about the official warnings by the commission. We know from that, and I

:11:39.:11:43.

know the points were raised on that by other members, that it gives the

:11:44.:11:47.

commission and absolute discretion to publish a warning to a wide

:11:48.:11:54.

audience. But charities depend heavily on funding and reputation

:11:55.:12:00.

matters. I fear, if there is no real right to appeal against a warning,

:12:01.:12:05.

and no minimum notice period given, I think that is something that needs

:12:06.:12:11.

to be looked at. Clause 11, with the power to disqualify from being a

:12:12.:12:17.

trustee, I think the issue here really is about clarity because I

:12:18.:12:23.

think we agree in principle that that power, if there is genuine

:12:24.:12:31.

abuse, is important. There is an issue where there is a clear case

:12:32.:12:35.

and in terms of the amount of discretion, is that two white? Many

:12:36.:12:39.

of us would agree it should be defined more clearly. Of course, the

:12:40.:12:45.

issue of past behaviour is a point that the honourable member for

:12:46.:12:53.

Congleton raised in her extensive speech. I would say this is a

:12:54.:13:00.

welcome Bill. It is part of looking at how charities develop in a modern

:13:01.:13:08.

world. Also, we have got to make sure that we are a bit careful. It

:13:09.:13:14.

is so easy for us to add new regulations and really frightened

:13:15.:13:16.

charities, especially smaller charities, from doing the work they

:13:17.:13:21.

do. Often charities start off very small. I think of the charity in my

:13:22.:13:30.

constituency, it started very small but has now become a

:13:31.:13:32.

state-of-the-art charity working with children and young people with

:13:33.:13:38.

autism. It often begins little acorns but we must not smother those

:13:39.:13:43.

with too many regulations. I'm not sure if you can smuggle regulations,

:13:44.:13:46.

but if you can I don't think you should. I broadly welcome this but

:13:47.:13:55.

we do need to look at some of those issues. The Government did that very

:13:56.:13:58.

much so in the last Parliament, as we discussed at committee stage, the

:13:59.:14:05.

small charitable donations Bill, and changes were made. I very much hope

:14:06.:14:10.

that some of these debates might be had at a later stage.

:14:11.:14:17.

It is an absolute pleasure and a privilege to stand here today and

:14:18.:14:26.

speak to this Charities Bill. Across the country, charities do

:14:27.:14:30.

magnificent work, a national and local level. Sitting on the Green

:14:31.:14:33.

benches, we have been listening to some fantastic examples from my

:14:34.:14:44.

honourable friends. Some really fantastic examples. Some very

:14:45.:14:49.

inspirational examples of the work that goes on up and down the breadth

:14:50.:14:54.

of our country. In the days when I used to run half marathons, like the

:14:55.:14:58.

Great North Run, rubbing their own just running from my office to this

:14:59.:15:07.

chamber or to the voting lobby, I was always oppressed by the number

:15:08.:15:12.

of runners, the breadth of charities representative and the generosity

:15:13.:15:14.

and support of the public. I was often disheartened when somebody in

:15:15.:15:22.

fancy dress ran past me at a faster speed, but you cannot have

:15:23.:15:26.

everything. In Mike stitcher and see, I think of some of our local

:15:27.:15:33.

charities. One in particular, Rosie's Helping Hands, it was set up

:15:34.:15:43.

to help them deal with the loss of a daughter. They hold numerous events

:15:44.:15:48.

including a charitable walk. The money that they raise goes into

:15:49.:15:53.

helping children and young people in our local community. We also have

:15:54.:15:59.

many local branches of some of the big national charities. I think of

:16:00.:16:05.

the Royal British Legion, our local branches do so much to raise

:16:06.:16:10.

awareness and raise funds for this incredibly important charity that

:16:11.:16:15.

supports the Armed Forces veterans. In one of my villagers, they managed

:16:16.:16:24.

to ink courage -- encourage the entire community to knit bobbies in

:16:25.:16:32.

advance of Remembrance Sunday. To see these puppies all over the

:16:33.:16:37.

clocktower in remembrance, that is a vital reminder of why the charitable

:16:38.:16:40.

sector is so important. Do my honourable friend 's agree that it

:16:41.:16:44.

is partly fundraising and also the feel-good factor that is created in

:16:45.:16:48.

communities like you have just described? I could not agree more. I

:16:49.:16:56.

had to get my knitting needles out and learn how to knit again. I

:16:57.:17:01.

probably dropped several! I did my bit, as did everybody else. To see

:17:02.:17:07.

the way that unity came together, and that sense of working together

:17:08.:17:11.

and having a bit of fun for an incredible you worthwhile cause. To

:17:12.:17:21.

me, charities play an important part in our local communities, dividing

:17:22.:17:28.

something over and above what the public sector provides. It is often

:17:29.:17:31.

these small things that make a big difference to the lives of

:17:32.:17:34.

individual people and their families. Through my involvement,

:17:35.:17:40.

Madam to the Speaker, with social action projects over the years, I

:17:41.:17:45.

have been fortunate to get to know many of the charities both in the UK

:17:46.:17:52.

and overseas. There are members of this chamber involved in projects in

:17:53.:17:57.

Rwanda, working with charities over there. In recent weeks, as some of

:17:58.:18:04.

you in this chamber will know, I have a private member 's Bill going

:18:05.:18:09.

through this place to help Great Ormond Street hospital. I had a

:18:10.:18:15.

great measure of visiting the husband to and seeing the work --

:18:16.:18:22.

the hospital and seeing the work they do with patients there. They

:18:23.:18:26.

are involved with, there is a chapel. They do a huge at the

:18:27.:18:31.

paediatric research. That would not be possible if not for the role of

:18:32.:18:35.

the charity and the people involved with that. Sadly, Madam Deputy

:18:36.:18:42.

Speaker, the results of high-profile crises can so often damaged the

:18:43.:18:48.

trust in charities. Therefore I think it is really important that we

:18:49.:18:53.

do all we can to maintain and strengthen the trust of charities.

:18:54.:19:01.

That is demonstrated in this Bill. It demonstrates the importance of

:19:02.:19:06.

having an effective charity regulator. I will be supporting the

:19:07.:19:09.

Bill because it brings forward provisions that include providing

:19:10.:19:14.

stronger protections for charities in England and Wales. It also

:19:15.:19:18.

includes equipping the charities commission with strengthened powers

:19:19.:19:24.

to tackle abuse more effectively and efficiently. I thank the honourable

:19:25.:19:32.

lady for giving way for so few has made some strong points in favour of

:19:33.:19:37.

this Bill. To keep the flow of funds coming in from the public and from

:19:38.:19:40.

donors, it is vital that the abuse is not possible and the public has

:19:41.:19:45.

covered is that there is a mechanism to tackle it? Trust and confidence

:19:46.:19:49.

is critical. That is why I believe it is about taking or being ever

:19:50.:19:54.

take robust but proportionate action where serious mismanagement occurs.

:19:55.:19:59.

It is about maintaining and strengthening trust in this vital

:20:00.:20:05.

set. To enable all charities, with a large or small, to continue to do

:20:06.:20:12.

the work they do. I would make one play, to ensure that throughout this

:20:13.:20:17.

Bill, the smaller charities are not as proportionately affected by any

:20:18.:20:25.

bureaucracy or to which legislation. In my opinion, it doesn't matter

:20:26.:20:30.

whether you are a small charity or a large charity, they have so much to

:20:31.:20:37.

give to our country, to our society, to our communities, so I will be

:20:38.:20:41.

doing everything I can to get them the support they deserve.

:20:42.:20:50.

I really wanted to speak briefly in today's debate to welcome this

:20:51.:20:56.

Bill, which I think is much needed and very sensible reform from the

:20:57.:20:58.

Government. I'm delighted they brought it forward. I speak as

:20:59.:21:02.

someone who practised as a solicitor for several years before entering

:21:03.:21:08.

this place. In doing so, I practised corporate governance in other areas.

:21:09.:21:13.

We have all come to see in the last year that the governance of

:21:14.:21:19.

charities is in crisis. That is affecting all charities. The large

:21:20.:21:23.

charities are infecting the small charities, and that is why it is so

:21:24.:21:27.

important for this House to act because, as has Audie been said by

:21:28.:21:32.

mothers on all sides, we all support the charities in our

:21:33.:21:38.

constituencies. We have given to them or acted as trustees was to be

:21:39.:21:48.

want to see public increased. Public confidence has been knocked this

:21:49.:21:54.

yet. Charities are different to many other parts of our society. When

:21:55.:22:04.

large businesses get knocked by scandals, the public toast was the

:22:05.:22:08.

little guys and public confidence increases. If there is a horse meat

:22:09.:22:12.

scandal at Tesco, we all go to the local butchers and sales rise.

:22:13.:22:20.

Charity seem to have the inverse was that if big charities get hit by

:22:21.:22:24.

scandal, the little guys suffer as well. It is essential that we

:22:25.:22:28.

protect the small charities, but thousands of excellent small

:22:29.:22:33.

charities that as men was apartment -- that as members of parliament we

:22:34.:22:36.

get to know better than other members of society. It is for them

:22:37.:22:39.

but we have to ensure that the larger charities have the highest

:22:40.:22:43.

quality of governance. That really comes down to trustees.

:22:44.:22:50.

It has been a torrid year in many respects towards how those large

:22:51.:22:57.

charities have behaved, whether it has been scandals of high salaries

:22:58.:23:00.

of chief executives and management teams of chief executives and

:23:01.:23:05.

management team to of politicisation, or, above all, it

:23:06.:23:09.

has been the question of fund raising, inappropriate use of

:23:10.:23:12.

fundraisers on our high streets, and of course the tragic case of Olive

:23:13.:23:17.

Cook that we have heard about. With pleasure. I thank the honourable

:23:18.:23:21.

gentleman forgiving way, he is making a very strong speech. Part of

:23:22.:23:24.

it is about the public having confidence of how much of their

:23:25.:23:29.

pound is going to the good work, the good cause, particularly when

:23:30.:23:31.

sometimes some of the larger charities, there have been issues of

:23:32.:23:37.

how much is going on overheads and administration. That is a very

:23:38.:23:41.

strong point, and I want to come onto that, how we can ensure proper

:23:42.:23:46.

financial management of charities, and that cuts in both directions in

:23:47.:23:49.

terms of how they governed themselves and what percentage of

:23:50.:23:53.

their organisation and resources are deployed on central management. The

:23:54.:23:57.

last and of course most prominent has been the Kids Company scandal,

:23:58.:24:01.

which has raised all manner of questions about the governance of

:24:02.:24:05.

our most high profile and largest charities,, particularly their

:24:06.:24:09.

capacity to handle the finances appropriately. I don't want to dwell

:24:10.:24:13.

on Kids Company, it is an outlier, but it has done huge damage to other

:24:14.:24:17.

charities, and that is why those who have been at the heart of it, and

:24:18.:24:22.

indeed Government who have worked with Kids Company, has to take it

:24:23.:24:27.

seriously, because it is damaging all of our charities throughout the

:24:28.:24:31.

country, and I think the powers contained in this Bill will be

:24:32.:24:35.

tested as to whether, when Barack Kids Company scandals in the future,

:24:36.:24:40.

they enable us to prevent those ineffective and inappropriate

:24:41.:24:43.

trustees to be barred from acting as trustees -- when there are Kids

:24:44.:24:46.

Company scandals. Thank you forgiving way. Isn't this at the

:24:47.:24:52.

heart of the matter, the reality is that the vast majority of people who

:24:53.:24:57.

work, volunteer, or have leadership positions in charities across the

:24:58.:25:01.

UK, generally do the right thing in their day-to-day activities, but

:25:02.:25:05.

what we need to do with this Bill and other initiatives is to try and

:25:06.:25:08.

get that right balance between the governance and allowing them to get

:25:09.:25:11.

on with doing the things they really want to do on a daily basis. My

:25:12.:25:18.

honourable friend make the point perfectly. It is important to

:25:19.:25:22.

remember that the core activities of our territories are really -- rarely

:25:23.:25:29.

questioned. They are usually performed incredibly well,

:25:30.:25:33.

sensitively and appropriately. The scandals and disappointments tend to

:25:34.:25:37.

come from the way the operation of other charities occurs, and that is

:25:38.:25:40.

why it is incredibly important that trustees playing their full role in

:25:41.:25:47.

managing those organisations, scrutinising and supporting them, as

:25:48.:25:51.

do the directors, the nonexecutive directors of our companies. And so

:25:52.:25:55.

the role of a trustee has to be at the heart of the matter. And here

:25:56.:26:00.

the new Bill is important, the power to bar individuals was not

:26:01.:26:04.

appropriate to be trustees, and who bring charities into disrepute is

:26:05.:26:07.

incredibly important. I would be interested to know from the Minister

:26:08.:26:11.

how many trustees he believes that would apply to in an average year.

:26:12.:26:16.

Is this going to have a marginal difference, or is it going to have a

:26:17.:26:19.

more significant one? And preventing trustees from just moving on from

:26:20.:26:24.

damaging an organisation and then being able to continue in many

:26:25.:26:28.

others. We all know that many people, many good people, are

:26:29.:26:33.

trustees of several charities, and so inevitably the bad apples, too,

:26:34.:26:37.

are involved in many charities, and we want to ensure that they cannot

:26:38.:26:41.

just continue to do so. The power to issue warnings to charities I think

:26:42.:26:45.

is important of those charities consider that there actions, the

:26:46.:26:49.

Charity Commission considers that their actions amount to misconduct

:26:50.:26:52.

or mismanagement. Of course that must be done proportionately, and

:26:53.:26:58.

the Charity Commission has not always acted proportionally in other

:26:59.:27:01.

issues, as we heard from the honourable member in the issue of

:27:02.:27:10.

the Plymouth Brethren, which I would have supported the campaign on. Many

:27:11.:27:14.

involved in the third sector have expressed concern that the Bill

:27:15.:27:17.

gives the Commission the benefit of the doubt. But I think bearing in

:27:18.:27:22.

mind the portents of raising public trust in our charities -- the

:27:23.:27:25.

importance. I think it is essential now that we have a strong regulator

:27:26.:27:30.

that has the tools to act, and this Bill does provide that. I do have

:27:31.:27:34.

some questions on the roles of trustees, or thoughts for the

:27:35.:27:39.

Minister. The first one really is that it is absolutely essential,

:27:40.:27:42.

Kids Company showbiz, and it sounds a very simple point to make, it is

:27:43.:27:48.

obvious is essential -- Kids Company is showed this. A Board of Trustees

:27:49.:27:53.

must contain the range of expertise. That within the guidance of the

:27:54.:27:56.

charity committee, but clearly it doesn't would happen. In particular,

:27:57.:28:00.

the right range of financial expertise. When charities reach a

:28:01.:28:05.

certain size, they are, like larger companies, they would qualify for

:28:06.:28:10.

being in the FTSE 250, these are huge organisations, they require

:28:11.:28:14.

individuals with genuine financial expertise and knowledge of financial

:28:15.:28:18.

controls, so that they can scrutinise the organisation and hold

:28:19.:28:24.

it to account. I hear what the honourable member was saying. My

:28:25.:28:33.

concern is that, and the honourable lady also referred to this, possible

:28:34.:28:38.

regulations for larger charities. My concern is how that is divide, my

:28:39.:28:43.

concern is that within that, one might bring in the smaller

:28:44.:28:46.

charities. Does the honourable member not share my concern of the

:28:47.:28:51.

difficulty of attracting officers to the role of, in particular, as my

:28:52.:28:56.

experience has shown, being treasurer of a charitable

:28:57.:28:59.

organisation? I do share that concern. We all know in other

:29:00.:29:02.

organisations we are involved in how difficult it can be to find good

:29:03.:29:06.

people, particularly as it has been said, younger people to come forward

:29:07.:29:10.

and act as trustees. Incidentally, the charity sector is a lot more

:29:11.:29:14.

diverse than corporate sector. I think about 40% of charity trustees

:29:15.:29:19.

are women, which is not the same for the corporate sector. But it is

:29:20.:29:23.

important that we don't put off people from getting involved in

:29:24.:29:26.

this. It may be that the time has come that one size fits all doesn't

:29:27.:29:31.

work, and largest charities, who are really the upholders of public trust

:29:32.:29:34.

and confidence in charitable giving more generally, they are very large

:29:35.:29:38.

and we are encouraging charities to merge and get larger, that those

:29:39.:29:43.

charities should be subject to far greater scrutiny and a different

:29:44.:29:47.

regime from the small ones that we all know in our constituencies and

:29:48.:29:53.

want to see Fry. -- thrive. For the very small charities, there may be

:29:54.:29:59.

needs to be some sort of Charity Commission calls that would be

:30:00.:30:02.

trustee can go on to ensure that they do have the necessary

:30:03.:30:07.

understanding of the role will quiet -- course. This is a point that I

:30:08.:30:13.

wanted to make in a moment. By the Charity Commission's own reckoning,

:30:14.:30:17.

actually knowledge of governments, rules and best practice is quite

:30:18.:30:21.

limited amongst our trustees -- governance. I don't blame them, they

:30:22.:30:25.

are busy people and they are doing this voluntarily and we want to

:30:26.:30:27.

encourage that. But knowledge is quite limited, and awareness of some

:30:28.:30:34.

of the guidance but out, like for example CC three, which is the

:30:35.:30:37.

essential trustee guide, knowledge of that is quite modest. The surveys

:30:38.:30:41.

that the Charity Commission have put out to trustees of both larger and

:30:42.:30:46.

smaller charities suggest that actually basic functions of being a

:30:47.:30:50.

trustee or not widely known by our trustees. So anything the Charity

:30:51.:30:54.

Commission can do to boost awareness, without putting off our

:30:55.:30:57.

trustees, is absolutely essential and I would like to see the Charity

:30:58.:31:01.

Commission, I know because I have spoken to them, they do take that

:31:02.:31:04.

seriously, and they have got to do something to be is that awareness

:31:05.:31:07.

and support trustees in a way that strikes the right balance between

:31:08.:31:14.

not deterring people and making sure they know what they are supposed to

:31:15.:31:18.

do -- to boast that awareness. It is actually quite scary how few

:31:19.:31:21.

trustees understand they're responsible it is, particular in

:31:22.:31:26.

terms of finance. I thank the Judd forgiving way, he has been extremely

:31:27.:31:31.

generous with his time. -- honourable gentleman. Is it

:31:32.:31:34.

important that anybody who wants what's best for their community to

:31:35.:31:38.

support the good cause doesn't feel excluded from being a trustee

:31:39.:31:41.

because he doesn't have qualifications, but it is then

:31:42.:31:44.

important that the Charity Commission helps build the skills

:31:45.:31:47.

that they need, because I wouldn't want it to be a graduate only

:31:48.:31:51.

sector? That is important, but I do come back to our biggest charities,

:31:52.:31:55.

these are major organisations dealing with hundreds of millions of

:31:56.:31:58.

pounds of not just the public's money that the taxpayer's money, and

:31:59.:32:04.

some of them, as I say, I am nervous to dwell on Kids Company, but the

:32:05.:32:09.

trustees had very little relevant expertise, one was a celebrity

:32:10.:32:13.

hairdresser, nothing wrong with that, but I don't like that person

:32:14.:32:17.

necessarily to have expertise of running a major multinational

:32:18.:32:21.

business as Kids Company had become. So I think it is absolutely is

:32:22.:32:25.

ensure that these organisations step up and appropriate trustees, and I

:32:26.:32:30.

would like to see this Bill on the Government push our biggest

:32:31.:32:34.

charities to have those individuals. I never charities are required to

:32:35.:32:37.

have an annual return to confirm whether or not they have renewed

:32:38.:32:40.

their financial controls, clearly that is an important lesson coming

:32:41.:32:43.

out of recent scandals, anything we can do to be that up without tearing

:32:44.:32:48.

the little guys is absolutely essential. -- to beef that up.

:32:49.:32:53.

Unlike companies, most trustees do not meet in mixed board meetings

:32:54.:32:57.

with their management, so the interplay between the two is often

:32:58.:33:01.

limited. Those trustees who take their role mysteriously and work

:33:02.:33:05.

hard at it no doubt get to know the senior management -- take their role

:33:06.:33:09.

seriously. But others don't, and often rely, crucially of course, on

:33:10.:33:14.

the chief executive, who may be, as we have seen in other scandals, and

:33:15.:33:19.

overbearing founder who might be incredibly charismatic and powerful

:33:20.:33:22.

as knowledgeable about your browser is, but it is difficult scrutinise,

:33:23.:33:25.

to stretch them and to hold them into account. That would be

:33:26.:33:31.

something that would be important, larger charities darted to have

:33:32.:33:36.

mixed board meetings between executive and nonexecutive

:33:37.:33:38.

directors. I would like the Government to think about the role

:33:39.:33:42.

of overbearing founders, because that is an incredibly important

:33:43.:33:45.

issue, and anybody who is involved in a charitable sector sees that,

:33:46.:33:49.

where somebody who may be a brilliant individual founds a

:33:50.:33:53.

charity, and then it really gets out of control. They are extremely

:33:54.:33:56.

difficult to scrutinise, and pats the time comes where they should

:33:57.:34:00.

step aside or hand over to somebody else -- perhaps the time comes.

:34:01.:34:04.

Maybe it would be appropriate that these individuals have term limits,

:34:05.:34:07.

as you would have for the chairman of a public company, where at the

:34:08.:34:15.

end of term they have to go through a rigorous procedure to be

:34:16.:34:17.

reappointed. Lastly I want to raise conflict-of-interest. We see at a

:34:18.:34:20.

number of even a number of even of our are riddled with

:34:21.:34:23.

conflict-of-interest. Trustees have friends and relatives employed in

:34:24.:34:26.

the organisation, trustees sometimes get benefits which are not

:34:27.:34:29.

appropriate. I don't think the Bill particular speaks about, and that is

:34:30.:34:33.

something that does a lot of damage to undermine confidence in the

:34:34.:34:37.

charitable sector last point I want to make is whether the Minister

:34:38.:34:40.

really believe that the Charity Commission has the capacity to

:34:41.:34:44.

regulate the vast number of charities. We have thousands of

:34:45.:34:48.

charities in this country, some are extremely complex organisations, as

:34:49.:34:52.

we have seen. Does the Charity Commission actually have the

:34:53.:34:56.

resources to do that? I suspect not, and many involved in the sector

:34:57.:35:00.

believe it doesn't. Some of our most experienced TV executives now

:35:01.:35:02.

believe that the time has come for some form of beefing up of the

:35:03.:35:06.

Charity Commission through some form of self funding -- some of our most

:35:07.:35:11.

experienced charity executives. They might contribute some money towards

:35:12.:35:15.

ensuring that the wider sector has trust and confidence maintained, so

:35:16.:35:20.

that the Charity Commission has the funding required to really see that

:35:21.:35:23.

happen. I will close on that point, because I know the Minister wants to

:35:24.:35:29.

speak. In conclusion, trustees are absolutely essential, and the

:35:30.:35:31.

trustees of our biggest charities are letting down the entire sector.

:35:32.:35:35.

Scandals like his company matter, because they are harming the ball

:35:36.:35:39.

charities, they are the lifeblood of charitable giving, -- the small

:35:40.:35:44.

charities. I certainly take huge pleasure in getting to know and

:35:45.:35:48.

working with small charities, and those who hold the position is in

:35:49.:35:51.

big organisations need to start up and behave as if they were the

:35:52.:35:56.

nonexecutive directors of a large in the nonexecutive directors of a

:35:57.:35:57.

large portable organisation that they are. Louise Haig. Thank you,

:35:58.:36:05.

Madam Deputy Speaker. Today is my first time at the dispatch box

:36:06.:36:09.

responding to a Bill, so may I say it is a pleasure to listen to learn

:36:10.:36:12.

it contributions of honourable members of both sides of the House.

:36:13.:36:16.

I would have liked a few more honourable friends behind me today,

:36:17.:36:19.

but I can assure the House that it is not a signal of disinterest from

:36:20.:36:24.

these benchers, but our wholehearted support to the objectives of the

:36:25.:36:29.

Government in this Bill. This has been an important and helpful

:36:30.:36:32.

debate, as I would like to congratulate all members who have

:36:33.:36:35.

participated, and everybody who has been involved in getting the Bill to

:36:36.:36:38.

this place, particularly our colleagues in the other place. We

:36:39.:36:42.

have had a small number of contributions, but fortunately this

:36:43.:36:44.

debate has been defined by its quality, not its quantity. The

:36:45.:36:50.

honourable lady, who brings extensive experience in the sector,

:36:51.:36:54.

spoke about the difficulties in in courage in trustees to charities,

:36:55.:36:57.

concerns around giving the Charity Commission is the power of judgment

:36:58.:37:05.

of a power trustees who has committed misconduct ample warning

:37:06.:37:08.

notice, risking Amish to trustees' predation.

:37:09.:37:12.

The honourable gentleman spoke about how it could not be viewed in a

:37:13.:37:19.

vacuum and charities are being asked to do more for less as the cuts bite

:37:20.:37:27.

further. The honourable lady paid tribute to the volunteers in her

:37:28.:37:35.

constituency, as we all do across all of our constituencies. It

:37:36.:37:41.

fulfils a much needed demand. I will not put your patients to test by

:37:42.:37:45.

listing all of those in my constituency. The honourable member

:37:46.:37:54.

spoke about the fundraising preference service. The honourable

:37:55.:38:00.

lady spoke about her own experience of volunteering. The impact of small

:38:01.:38:04.

charities in her own constituency and her own private memos Bill in

:38:05.:38:08.

supporting the renowned fantastic work of Great Ormond Street. The

:38:09.:38:14.

honourable gentleman for Newark, a former governors practitioner spoke

:38:15.:38:19.

about how we must make sure that larger Chad -- smaller charities

:38:20.:38:25.

must not pay the price for larger charities misbehaving. He has said

:38:26.:38:32.

that kids charity is an outlier at best. The blaze -- today's debate

:38:33.:38:44.

has allowed... We know the special role charities play in Agassi juicy

:38:45.:38:52.

-- in our constituencies and in society as a whole. Bretonsdonate

:38:53.:39:01.

what they can do the causes close to the heart or to those in need in the

:39:02.:39:06.

committee around them. Charities are also the vehicle by which many of us

:39:07.:39:11.

can try to make a difference to the committees in which we live. The

:39:12.:39:14.

estimate is that nearly three quarters of us do some form of work

:39:15.:39:23.

for charities each year. Only 1 million trustees who give their time

:39:24.:39:27.

to make our society a kinder and more interesting place, they are the

:39:28.:39:31.

best of Britain. We know that charities have a good deal of

:39:32.:39:35.

goodwill and support. As my honourable friend said, they support

:39:36.:39:42.

our honourable, how sick and elderly and give the chance to save lives.

:39:43.:39:50.

It is right that charities and their regulator have the right powers when

:39:51.:39:58.

misconduct occurs. When wrongdoing does occur, the regulator must we

:39:59.:40:09.

able to take action. It is simply common sense to not appoint

:40:10.:40:17.

inappropriate people as trustees. As mothers across the House know, the

:40:18.:40:21.

commission already has a wide range of compliance and enabling powers

:40:22.:40:24.

but there are underlying weaknesses, including a limit on the ability to

:40:25.:40:31.

tackle abuse in charities. The powers were not powers you would

:40:32.:40:36.

expect a regulator to hold. They did not go far enough, so we welcome the

:40:37.:40:41.

strengthening of those powers. In securing these, we will enable the

:40:42.:40:44.

Charity Commission to work more effectively. We know it is of utmost

:40:45.:40:51.

importance to find the balance between good governance, which gives

:40:52.:40:56.

people confidence, while ensuring the charities are free to do what

:40:57.:41:01.

they do best. They will build a better society, to innovate, to

:41:02.:41:07.

respond to the challenges of today and tomorrow and to deliver value

:41:08.:41:12.

for money. As we have heard, the vast majority of charities and

:41:13.:41:20.

trustees acted in the best interest of their community. A few

:41:21.:41:26.

unscrupulous individuals undermine confidence in the whole sector. We

:41:27.:41:32.

welcome the new powers to disqualify trustees. We would not be an

:41:33.:41:36.

effective opposition if we did not point out areas of room for

:41:37.:41:40.

improvement. We are disappointed that the Government will seek to

:41:41.:41:42.

overrule the Other Place in removing clause nine. It is a vital and

:41:43.:41:47.

Madrid that protects charities from arbitrary rulings asking them to

:41:48.:41:58.

dispose of completions. -- of contributions. Other honourable

:41:59.:42:03.

members have made good points on fundraising, the very important

:42:04.:42:06.

protection of minority views, something that we in this House

:42:07.:42:09.

should hold so dear, and insuring the balance between big elation and

:42:10.:42:13.

enabling charities to do good in their communities. I know the

:42:14.:42:18.

Minister will have been listening closely so that we can improve this

:42:19.:42:24.

Bill together at committee stage on across party basis. We are happy to

:42:25.:42:28.

support this Bill through a second reading.

:42:29.:42:35.

Can I thank all the honourable members for their excellent

:42:36.:42:39.

contributions to this debate. These are clearly issues that are

:42:40.:42:41.

important to them and their constituents. Can also my welcome

:42:42.:42:46.

and congratulations to the member for Sheffield Healy on her first

:42:47.:42:50.

outing at the dispatch box. It will be the first of many. It is clear

:42:51.:42:56.

the House has great respect and admiration for the good work

:42:57.:42:58.

currently being done by charities throughout the UK. I also know there

:42:59.:43:04.

is much experience and expertise of charities and voluntary amongst

:43:05.:43:08.

honourable members, as was demonstrated during some of the

:43:09.:43:11.

speeches today. There is or so a strong desire to protect the

:43:12.:43:14.

privileged position that charities hold in the eyes of the public, the

:43:15.:43:18.

mistreated through the latest world having index, which is bound Britain

:43:19.:43:21.

to be the most generous nation in Europe. We have a strong, diverse

:43:22.:43:29.

and growing charity sector. Over the period of the last Parliament, the

:43:30.:43:32.

number of registered charities in England and Wales has increased by

:43:33.:43:39.

over 2000, to 106 to 5000. Their combined income has grown by 10

:43:40.:43:46.

billion and is just short of ?70 billion a year. Before I guess the

:43:47.:43:50.

points that have been raised by a number of honourable members today,

:43:51.:43:55.

I believe it is also worth the time to echo a point that has been made

:43:56.:43:59.

throughout this debate. The vast majority of charities in this

:44:00.:44:02.

country do excellent work and are run by good, honest and generous

:44:03.:44:08.

people. They wish to hope those most in need and make the world a better

:44:09.:44:13.

place. I particularly want to pay tribute to charity trustees without

:44:14.:44:20.

whose unpaid effort, there would be no charity sector. For their

:44:21.:44:22.

selfless passion and commitment, they have my respect and my sincere

:44:23.:44:30.

thanks. However, their good work is threatened by a small minority who

:44:31.:44:34.

seek to abuse charitable status for their own ends. This Bill will help

:44:35.:44:38.

the independent regulator take robust action against that small

:44:39.:44:44.

minority and, by doing so, will reinforce public trust and

:44:45.:44:47.

confidence and protect the reputation of charities as a whole.

:44:48.:44:53.

The powers in the Bill have brought support from the charitable sector

:44:54.:44:57.

and indeed the public. And the Charity Commission has been involved

:44:58.:44:59.

throughout the process of developing these proposals. They have also been

:45:00.:45:06.

subjected to public consultation and preach legislative scrutiny, both of

:45:07.:45:14.

which helped reform and refine the powers. Some have argued that the

:45:15.:45:19.

Bill did Charity Commission too much power, or some other powers are too

:45:20.:45:24.

broad. I would say that the Bill seeks to achieve a balance. The new

:45:25.:45:33.

commission is to be broad enough to useful, too narrow and they could be

:45:34.:45:39.

exported by the speakers. The charities need to know the

:45:40.:45:41.

circumstances when the commission will use its powers. I think this

:45:42.:45:47.

Bill achieves the right balance but I would also like to draw honourable

:45:48.:45:52.

members' attention to a couple of safeguards that will exist. The

:45:53.:45:56.

Charity Commission is subject to a general Judy under section 16 of the

:45:57.:46:05.

charities act, 2011. This means that the committee must be satisfied that

:46:06.:46:08.

the execution of its powers will be in line with the principles of best

:46:09.:46:13.

regulatory prep is. Including that it is proportionate, accountable,

:46:14.:46:18.

consistent, transparent and targeted only at cases in which action is

:46:19.:46:23.

needed. Would the Minister give way? Of course. It is a pity that

:46:24.:46:32.

was not invoked with the whole interpretation of public benefit was

:46:33.:46:36.

being debated and that the Charity Commission did not refer themselves

:46:37.:46:38.

back to that then. With the Minister address my concerns during the

:46:39.:46:43.

course of his speech about the fact that this Bill could be enforced

:46:44.:46:47.

before there is a clear definition of nonviolent exhume is, bearing in

:46:48.:46:54.

mind that the Government's strategy says it would give the commission

:46:55.:46:59.

powers to disqualify trustees for wide reasons including past

:47:00.:47:05.

conduct, including a variety of abuses that the commission things

:47:06.:47:10.

has occurred a victory mizzen, which in the same strategy includes

:47:11.:47:23.

nonviolent exhume is in question? -- nonviolent extremism? She raises

:47:24.:47:29.

some important issues and I do intend to deal with those issues in

:47:30.:47:37.

full. If I can, as she has asked, I will deal with the religion one

:47:38.:47:42.

first. Religious charities do play a hugely important role in our public

:47:43.:47:48.

life. Over 25% average to charities have a religious purpose -- 25% of

:47:49.:47:59.

registered charities. There is no question at all that that status is

:48:00.:48:10.

under threat at all. All of the religious charities have no

:48:11.:48:14.

difficulty at all in devastating the public benefit. She did raised the

:48:15.:48:21.

issues of the Plymouth have macro brethren, that was an exception, and

:48:22.:48:25.

that was resolved ultimately in a sensible way even though it did take

:48:26.:48:30.

too long. I will come back to some of the other issues she raised later

:48:31.:48:33.

on in my comments. All of the proposed commission

:48:34.:48:38.

powers in the Bill have a right of appeal. In most cases, to the

:48:39.:48:42.

Charity Tribunal, ensuring there is in independent judicial oversight of

:48:43.:48:51.

the powers. Has also some question around the rehabilitation of

:48:52.:49:00.

offenders. The Government believes that individuals with such serious

:49:01.:49:03.

conviction should not be able to hold the position of charity

:49:04.:49:06.

trustees, and have control over charitable funds and fundraising

:49:07.:49:10.

activities, until those convictions are spent for a waiver from the

:49:11.:49:16.

disco of obtained from the commission. The way the regime

:49:17.:49:22.

exists to qualify individuals who wish to be a trustee to apply for

:49:23.:49:27.

bed school of patient to be overturned. An application would be

:49:28.:49:33.

considered on a case-by-case basis and they would take into account the

:49:34.:49:37.

nature and seriousness of the conduct that has resulted in the

:49:38.:49:40.

conviction and consequent job discoloured vocation. A decision of

:49:41.:49:52.

the commission could be referred to the tribunal, which would look at it

:49:53.:49:57.

completely afresh. That is fair as it protects charities and

:49:58.:50:01.

individuals who resent a known risk while providing for the

:50:02.:50:06.

rehabilitation of offenders and their way back into trusteeship on a

:50:07.:50:12.

case-by-case basis. People have also raised concerns about the warning

:50:13.:50:15.

power and that there is no right of appeal to the tribunal. There is, of

:50:16.:50:23.

course, a right of appeal which is judicial review. There is the same

:50:24.:50:28.

position is now whether commission publishes its operational compliance

:50:29.:50:32.

case reports into non-enquiry cases that have attracted public interest

:50:33.:50:36.

and highlight important lessons for charity trustees. The Bill provides

:50:37.:50:41.

for a period of ribs and a to be made in relation to an official

:50:42.:50:46.

warning which the commission would be obliged to consider. There is

:50:47.:50:49.

then the option of judicial review. We consider that proportionate. A

:50:50.:50:56.

right to appeal, an official warning, could tie up the commission

:50:57.:51:03.

in red tape, rendering the power impact go for its purpose. The last

:51:04.:51:06.

thing we want to do is to give the Charity Commission powers that it

:51:07.:51:10.

cannot use and for which it would be good for failing to exercise the

:51:11.:51:14.

powers for several years hence. The joint committee that undertook three

:51:15.:51:21.

legislative scrutiny agreed that with proper safeguards, judicial

:51:22.:51:24.

review was the appropriate route for appeals. I will now turn to

:51:25.:51:30.

fundraising. I was deeply disappointed to see the extent of

:51:31.:51:33.

poor practice by large charities in relation to their fundraising,

:51:34.:51:37.

widely exposed by the media earlier this year by the sad death of Olive

:51:38.:51:43.

Cook. Since then, further damaging cases have come to light. Once

:51:44.:51:47.

again, the reputation of charities was being put at risk are the

:51:48.:51:51.

actions of a small minority. Public trust and confidence in charities

:51:52.:51:57.

has not been this low since 2007. Charities are now ranked 11th in the

:51:58.:52:05.

most trusted institutions was that only 48% of people said they trusted

:52:06.:52:12.

charities. In response to the fundraising scandals, we acted

:52:13.:52:14.

swiftly to amend the Bill in the Other Place to reinforce charity

:52:15.:52:20.

trustees' responsible at sea for the fundraising. Calls 14 of the Bill

:52:21.:52:25.

will encourage charities to exercise greater control and oversight over

:52:26.:52:29.

those who fundraising for the organisation. It will ensure there

:52:30.:52:33.

are proper processes for dealing with honourable people and generally

:52:34.:52:37.

safeguard the public. Large charities will make this commitment

:52:38.:52:41.

public through the charities' annual report so I can hold a charity to

:52:42.:52:44.

account for the way it interacts with them.

:52:45.:52:50.

I asked Stuart Etherington to conduct an independent review of how

:52:51.:52:56.

fundraising regulation can be improved in order to safeguard from

:52:57.:53:00.

rubble people with better respect to the public's wishes of how

:53:01.:53:02.

fundraising regulation can be improved in order to safeguard from

:53:03.:53:05.

rubble people with better respect to the public's wishes over how and

:53:06.:53:12.

accepted the review's recommendations and I'm encouraging

:53:13.:53:20.

the sector to move to make self-regulation work. I expect the

:53:21.:53:24.

sector to fully back the new fundraising regulator, both

:53:25.:53:27.

financially and through compliance with its moons. In the past few

:53:28.:53:31.

weeks, I have announced that Lord Michael grade has been recruited as

:53:32.:53:37.

chair of the new body and will set up the initial phase of operations.

:53:38.:53:40.

I am confident that he is the right man to lead this important task, and

:53:41.:53:45.

that the sector will unite behind him to address these urgent issues

:53:46.:53:48.

and restore public trust in fundraising. The new regulator will

:53:49.:53:53.

also host the fundraising preference service, a tool which will allow

:53:54.:53:57.

people to opt out of receiving fundraising requests, and which will

:53:58.:54:01.

stop charities wasting resources on approaching those who do not wish to

:54:02.:54:09.

hear from them. A working group is currently being set up to establish

:54:10.:54:11.

how the service will work in practice. No doubt in addition to a

:54:12.:54:14.

simple reset button, there will be a small number of nuanced options

:54:15.:54:18.

should people wish to only opt into certain charities. Crucially, it

:54:19.:54:22.

will provide anybody with a way to get off charity contact lists, which

:54:23.:54:27.

they no longer wish to be on. Charities need to demonstrate the

:54:28.:54:31.

fundraising and self-regulation can work in the best interests of the

:54:32.:54:34.

public. They will have the chance to do so at a summit tomorrow, where

:54:35.:54:38.

the next steps for implementing better self-regulation will be

:54:39.:54:43.

announced. I hope this will be a constructive and collaborative

:54:44.:54:46.

meeting where charities showed their commitment to the new self regulator

:54:47.:54:49.

and to meeting the public's expectations. Should they fail to do

:54:50.:54:53.

so, I stand ready to step in to stave guard the trust in charities

:54:54.:55:00.

-- to safeguard. For this purpose, I will be seeking to add two reserve

:55:01.:55:04.

powers as part of the Charities Bill. One, to compel charities to

:55:05.:55:09.

sign up to the new regulator, and a second to mandate the Charity

:55:10.:55:13.

Commission with regulation, should the sector failed to rise to the

:55:14.:55:16.

challenge. I also welcome the Charity Commission's revision of its

:55:17.:55:23.

guidance for charity trustees on fundraising, which the Commission

:55:24.:55:26.

has published today. This reminds trustees of their duties and

:55:27.:55:30.

responsibilities in relation to fundraising, including the need to

:55:31.:55:33.

protect the charities' predation and bat of the wider sector. And

:55:34.:55:37.

finally, I would like to turn to social investment. I mentioned the

:55:38.:55:42.

support that we give it in the Bill. As laid out, many of you will have

:55:43.:55:47.

seen in the Autumn Statement, this governor back row has shown a strong

:55:48.:55:51.

commitment in social investment -- Goffin. -- Government. The Charity

:55:52.:55:59.

investment enables them to increase their sustainability by making

:56:00.:56:03.

financial return, as well as furthering the purpose of the

:56:04.:56:07.

charity. Whilst most charities can make social investment under the

:56:08.:56:12.

current law, it can be very complex, and sometimes costly to do so. The

:56:13.:56:17.

new social investment power of the charities and cause 15 was

:56:18.:56:21.

recommended and drafted by the Law Commission to overcome that

:56:22.:56:25.

complexity and reduce the cost of investment for charities. It was

:56:26.:56:28.

widely supported on consultation. The UK has already recognised world

:56:29.:56:33.

leading social investment with pioneering action by Government such

:56:34.:56:37.

as setting up big society capital, as well as stipulating the use of

:56:38.:56:41.

social impact bonds to deliver services to some of the most

:56:42.:56:44.

disadvantaged in society through initiatives such as social outcomes

:56:45.:56:48.

funds. With the power of social investment conferred on charities by

:56:49.:56:52.

this Bill, we take another step forward in building sustainable

:56:53.:56:58.

social investment ecosystems. Very briefly I will now turn to some of

:56:59.:57:02.

the interventions and species that honourable members made. --

:57:03.:57:09.

speeches. My friend back River South West Wiltshire asked about the

:57:10.:57:14.

transparency of direct debit fundraisers professional fundraisers

:57:15.:57:17.

are already required to state how much they are paid when asking the

:57:18.:57:20.

public to donate, but I would be happy to discuss this further at

:57:21.:57:24.

committee stage. I was delighted to see the contribution from the SNP. I

:57:25.:57:29.

believe the honourable member may well be setting a precedent and

:57:30.:57:32.

English votes that the SNP will not be taking part in any other stages

:57:33.:57:37.

of bills, and I hope that President will now stand. The honourable

:57:38.:57:43.

friend for Erawan, thank you for a very uplifting speech and thinking

:57:44.:57:47.

about the volunteering day, I hope it sets a precedent for other MPs.

:57:48.:57:52.

Great to see that that is now going to become an annual process, and I

:57:53.:57:59.

certainly wish that well. I thank the honourable member from Clywd

:58:00.:58:03.

south for supporting the fundraising preference service, it is really

:58:04.:58:07.

important that that works and works successfully for the sake of

:58:08.:58:09.

fundraising going forward. I thank also my honourable friend for

:58:10.:58:16.

Brownhills, who in gauge as with the wonderful story of one of the

:58:17.:58:23.

villages knitting poppies -- who engaged us. That demonstrates the

:58:24.:58:27.

value of civil society on the contributions of charities. She is

:58:28.:58:30.

right when she says that small kindness can make a very big

:58:31.:58:33.

difference. On the role of trustees and setting a maximum term under

:58:34.:58:40.

statute, legislating for a maximum trustee term does not appeal for

:58:41.:58:45.

several reasons. The evidence is that 50% of charities are carrying

:58:46.:58:49.

at least one trustee vacancy. And we must be mindful that the trustee

:58:50.:58:56.

role is a voluntary one. On the issue of the impact on small

:58:57.:59:00.

charities, which was raised by my honourable friend as well, she does

:59:01.:59:06.

make an important point about minimising regulation for small

:59:07.:59:10.

charities. As did the honourable member for Clywd South, actually. We

:59:11.:59:14.

are very keen to minimise the burden of regulation on small charities.

:59:15.:59:19.

For example, the new reporting requirement on fundraising calls for

:59:20.:59:22.

team will only apply to charities with income over ?1 million. --

:59:23.:59:27.

clause 14. The new fundraising self regulator will need to consider

:59:28.:59:32.

exemptions for small charities for the fundraising preference service.

:59:33.:59:34.

I thought my honourable friend the member of the Newark made a very

:59:35.:59:40.

strong speech, which clearly set out how big charities are causing very

:59:41.:59:43.

big concerns for some of the smaller charities across the country, and it

:59:44.:59:47.

is certainly our intention in government to try and protect them.

:59:48.:59:53.

Very quickly responding to some of the opposition concerns that were

:59:54.:59:57.

raised about campaigning. Just to be clear, charities cannot engage in

:59:58.:00:01.

party political campaigning, and where they undertake any other types

:00:02.:00:06.

of campaigning to support their charitable purposes they must avoid

:00:07.:00:11.

adverse perceptions of their independence and political

:00:12.:00:15.

neutrality. In addition, they must not barking campaigning to such an

:00:16.:00:19.

extent that this compromises their legal status as a charity -- they

:00:20.:00:23.

must not embark. The Commission does provide very clear guidance of what

:00:24.:00:30.

is and what is not permitted. It makes clear that charity organisers

:00:31.:00:34.

of nonparty political campaigning can be a legitimate activity of a

:00:35.:00:37.

charities, and sets out the general principles. There was a concern

:00:38.:00:43.

about official warnings, and should the Commission be able to publish

:00:44.:00:47.

official warnings. Charities exist for public benefit and depend on

:00:48.:00:52.

public support, so there should be transparency and publication of

:00:53.:00:55.

official warnings where the regulator considers it necessary to

:00:56.:00:58.

intervene, unless there is a good reason not to publish those details

:00:59.:01:03.

of those warnings. There should always be an opportunity go to make

:01:04.:01:07.

representations about the factual accuracy of the statutory warning

:01:08.:01:13.

before it is published, a process for representations is included in

:01:14.:01:16.

the bell. There were some concerns about the official warnings on the

:01:17.:01:20.

scope being too broad -- in the Bill. We consider that the scope is

:01:21.:01:24.

right and clear under the Bill's provision of warning should be in

:01:25.:01:29.

respect of a breach of statutory provision or breach of trust or

:01:30.:01:35.

duty. Turning to my honourable friend four Congleton very quickly

:01:36.:01:40.

before I conclude, her concern about extremism. Extremism or terrorist

:01:41.:01:45.

abuse of charities of any kind is very rare indeed, but must be

:01:46.:01:51.

addressed to protect public trust and confidence in charities. Whilst

:01:52.:01:55.

it may not represent most of the Charity Commission's compliance

:01:56.:01:58.

work, it does represent a very serious risk to public trust and

:01:59.:02:02.

confidence. The proposed reforms in this Bill are not specifically

:02:03.:02:05.

focused on counterterrorism or extremism. They would enable the

:02:06.:02:10.

Commission to better tackle all types of abuse of charity. So the

:02:11.:02:16.

Bill does not seek to define extremism, and nor should it.

:02:17.:02:20.

Charities and their work can be an important protection against

:02:21.:02:24.

extremism. No intention, we have absolutely no intention, as I have

:02:25.:02:28.

said, of undermining freedom of religion or freedom of speech, and

:02:29.:02:32.

the Bill has been certified as being compatible with the CHC. I'm going

:02:33.:02:37.

to finish now because I know a lot of people want to get away from the

:02:38.:02:41.

chamber today. I'm going to finish by saying, this Bill is about

:02:42.:02:43.

protecting charities and safeguarding their place in the

:02:44.:02:47.

public's minds. It is about ensuring charities will not fund raise in a

:02:48.:02:51.

manner that will victimise the most fun rubble in our society. And it is

:02:52.:02:55.

about giving charities -- vulnerable. Doing charities in new

:02:56.:03:00.

way to utilise their assets. Charities rely on public trust and

:03:01.:03:07.

confidence. Abuse, where it happens, must be rooted out. This has

:03:08.:03:15.

support, 83% of the public and 92% of charities support new powers

:03:16.:03:19.

being introduced for the Commission. Charities play a vital role in

:03:20.:03:23.

communities, and this Bill aims to bolster their position in the

:03:24.:03:26.

public's trust and help them to continue the good work that they

:03:27.:03:29.

have been doing for hundreds of years, continuing our country's long

:03:30.:03:34.

and rich tradition of charity. On that basis, I commend this Bill to

:03:35.:03:40.

the House. The question is that the Bill be now read a second time. As

:03:41.:03:44.

many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:03:45.:03:50.

ayes have it, the ayes have it. Programme motion to be moved. The

:03:51.:03:56.

question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say

:03:57.:04:01.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The

:04:02.:04:07.

question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say

:04:08.:04:12.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes habit. I beg

:04:13.:04:20.

that this House to now adjourned. The question is that this House now

:04:21.:04:26.

adjourned. Norman Lamb. Thank you very much,s. It is a great pleasure

:04:27.:04:30.

to be able to raise a very important issue for debate -- Madam Deputy

:04:31.:04:35.

Speaker. This is three hours earlier than expected, and it is good to see

:04:36.:04:38.

the Minister taking his seat. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to raise an

:04:39.:04:45.

issue of what I think is of profound importance. It is a practice that I

:04:46.:04:54.

think is intolerable, but which carries an, every week of the year,

:04:55.:04:59.

broke the everyday of the year. And that is the shunting of people

:05:00.:05:03.

around the country -- probably every day of the year. Sometimes long

:05:04.:05:08.

distance away from home, at a moment of mental-health prices. Typically,

:05:09.:05:14.

the situation be that somebody, at a moment of acute crisis, would be

:05:15.:05:18.

taken into hospital, but there would be no bed available for them. And so

:05:19.:05:23.

they would be taken away somewhere else in the country. And there are

:05:24.:05:29.

numerous stories of people sometimes being taken literally hundreds of

:05:30.:05:33.

miles away from home, on a regular basis. This is a practice that would

:05:34.:05:40.

never, ever be tolerated in physical health services. You can imagine

:05:41.:05:44.

somebody with a stroke or a heart condition being taken by ambulance

:05:45.:05:48.

and being told, I'm sorry, there is no room at the local hospital, we

:05:49.:05:54.

are taking you to Cumbria, from Norfolk or something of that sort.

:05:55.:05:58.

It would be an regarded as a scandal, so it doesn't happen, and

:05:59.:06:03.

yet it happens every week of the year in mental health. It is what I

:06:04.:06:06.

regard as a complete discrimination at the heart of our NHS, and it is

:06:07.:06:14.

one of the very many examples of how people who suffer from acute mental

:06:15.:06:17.

ill-health are disadvantaged by the system. This is incidentally, this

:06:18.:06:23.

is no criticism of any individual government, this has always

:06:24.:06:26.

happened, there has been a rise, which I will come into a little

:06:27.:06:33.

well, but in very many ways, somebody suffering from mental

:06:34.:06:35.

ill-health simply does not get the same right of access to treatment in

:06:36.:06:40.

a moment of need somebody with physical problems. If any of us in

:06:41.:06:44.

this chamber stopped and thought about it for a single moment we

:06:45.:06:48.

would conclude that you can begin to justify that, and there has to be a

:06:49.:06:53.

programme -- you cannot begin to justify that. We have touted

:06:54.:06:57.

equality of access at the moment of need -- we have to have.

:06:58.:07:02.

I congratulate my friends for securing this debate in an area

:07:03.:07:10.

where he has done so much work. The title of this debate is out of area

:07:11.:07:13.

mental health placements. Is there not also a huge problem in the vast

:07:14.:07:24.

health board areas, where being in the countryside is a huge issue. It

:07:25.:07:30.

meant that constituent of mine would have to travel 50 miles or be sent

:07:31.:07:35.

50 miles away, not the most easiest travelling to rain, to the next

:07:36.:07:44.

board. There is a problem in these great geographical areas. I'm not

:07:45.:07:50.

asking him to come it on the issues of the Welsh National Health Service

:07:51.:07:54.

but I would say it applies to England as well. I'm great will to

:07:55.:07:59.

my friend for raising that Eddie makes an important point. I will

:08:00.:08:02.

address this in more detail later but there is evidence of an

:08:03.:08:08.

increased risk of suicide if you're treated a long way from home, if you

:08:09.:08:12.

are away from family and friends, who will struggle to go and see you.

:08:13.:08:16.

The idea of care as the home is incredibly important in mental

:08:17.:08:19.

health. We should, incidentally, be seeking to be caring for people at

:08:20.:08:27.

home, and not taken into hospital unless it absolutely cannot be

:08:28.:08:29.

avoided. There are moments when it is necessary and, as far as

:08:30.:08:34.

possible, there should be a place close to home. I am grateful. It is

:08:35.:08:40.

not a central point of my honourable friend's debate, but does he agree

:08:41.:08:44.

that one of the unacceptable outcomes of this has been the

:08:45.:08:49.

increased use of the police and police cells for people to be held

:08:50.:08:55.

overnight? That has been the reality of the situation in my constituency.

:08:56.:09:03.

It is a shocking practice and, incidentally, I applaud my

:09:04.:09:05.

honourable friend for the work he has done in his area on this, but

:09:06.:09:09.

the idea of putting someone who is suffering an acute mental illness

:09:10.:09:15.

into a police cell, which is defined in the legislation, unbelievably, as

:09:16.:09:22.

a place of safety, is quite bizarre. It ought not to be tolerated in this

:09:23.:09:26.

day and age. I'm pleased that the Government has indicated an

:09:27.:09:30.

intention to legislate to, in effect, eradicate the problem,

:09:31.:09:38.

completely for under 18 's and to make it an absolute exception for

:09:39.:09:40.

adults will stop we managed to reduce the numbers in England by 50%

:09:41.:09:47.

in the last two years. That was considerable progress. But we need

:09:48.:09:52.

to go further than that and bring an end to an unacceptable practice.

:09:53.:09:55.

Incidentally, it is interesting that where there is the local passion and

:09:56.:10:01.

drive, amazing things are possible. In our capital City of London,

:10:02.:10:16.

something around 20 people were put into police cells. In Sussex, the

:10:17.:10:22.

novel was closer to 400. They can change practices and make people's

:10:23.:10:27.

lives better. He is right to persist with this in Wales, just as I try to

:10:28.:10:34.

do in England. I give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way

:10:35.:10:39.

and may I congratulate him for securing this debate and the work he

:10:40.:10:42.

has done to bring this issue to the fore. A quick comment would be that

:10:43.:10:47.

a police cell will be for someone who is charge of a crime, not for

:10:48.:10:51.

someone who it is unwell. Some of it could be done with better

:10:52.:10:55.

coordination. I had a case in my constituency where available to

:10:56.:10:57.

begin was full so a person was placed in Maidenhead. We then

:10:58.:11:01.

discovered there was someone from Maidenhead in the local treatment

:11:02.:11:05.

unit in Torbay, and we arranged a swap. That sort of story makes you

:11:06.:11:13.

weep. It leaves one feeling that there is a degree of incompetence

:11:14.:11:18.

somewhere. It is a point I will come onto, that a lot of what I want to

:11:19.:11:24.

see happen can be done by that organisation rather than more money.

:11:25.:11:29.

I happen to believe we need more investment in local health services

:11:30.:11:32.

but more can be done by organising things better. I thank my right

:11:33.:11:37.

honourable friend for giving way. I wonder whether he would like to

:11:38.:11:41.

commend the work that south-west London and St George 's have done

:11:42.:11:44.

with a number of local authorities in the area, including mine, whether

:11:45.:11:50.

police work with a nurse to ensure that if the police are dispatched

:11:51.:11:54.

somewhere and someone does have a mental health problem, someone is

:11:55.:11:57.

able to access them immediately and make sure they go to a place of

:11:58.:12:06.

safety rather than a police cell. I would absolutely commend them for

:12:07.:12:09.

that work. My right honourable friend is talking about some record

:12:10.:12:12.

streak triage, which the Minister will be familiar with. We introduced

:12:13.:12:21.

Street triage in a number of places in the country in the last two or

:12:22.:12:25.

three years. There are some I nearing areas like Leicestershire

:12:26.:12:29.

that just went ahead and did it before the national pilot started.

:12:30.:12:35.

The evidence is dramatic that, where you have this collaboration between

:12:36.:12:38.

police and mental health services, with a nurse embedded in the police

:12:39.:12:44.

team, then you achieve amazing results. You reduce the number of

:12:45.:12:49.

people being taken in under that legislation completely, because the

:12:50.:12:55.

nurses able to find alternatives and reassure and provide care at home.

:12:56.:13:01.

Where it is necessary to take someone to a place of safety,

:13:02.:13:06.

bananas are people going into police cells dramatically false. -- the

:13:07.:13:09.

numbers of people going into police cells dramatically falls.

:13:10.:13:27.

It would be wrong not to acknowledge in our area that the police and the

:13:28.:13:33.

health board have embarked on such an initiative but, again, in areas

:13:34.:13:39.

like mine, there is a challenge of being in the countryside in making

:13:40.:13:42.

those services available when needed, and there is a feeling that

:13:43.:13:46.

the need is not met. I agree with that. My own committee suffers from

:13:47.:13:55.

the same problem, widely spread rural communities. Having a nurse in

:13:56.:14:01.

a car with a couple of police officers doesn't work in a big roll

:14:02.:14:04.

area -- big roll -- big rural area. Depending on the geography, there

:14:05.:14:25.

are ways of dealing with this. We need to be much smarter at doing it.

:14:26.:14:29.

I applaud the innovation that has happened around the country, and the

:14:30.:14:34.

whole approach that is used in the crisis care ... It said that these

:14:35.:14:53.

are the principles, give us your plan for working together with the

:14:54.:14:56.

police, mental health services and local authority to come up with

:14:57.:15:02.

plans that work in your locality. It has generated the most amazing

:15:03.:15:08.

degree of coordination around the country, with some real progress

:15:09.:15:13.

being made and although I initiated it, I just have enormous aberration

:15:14.:15:17.

for the people on the ground to went on and did it. It was inspiring. I

:15:18.:15:27.

will bring him back to perhaps where he started, we had an issue in

:15:28.:15:34.

Sutton whether mental health facilities shut down as a result of

:15:35.:15:40.

legionnaires bacterium being discovered, mainly, and people meet

:15:41.:15:45.

to travel to Springfield. As we see more people being treated at home,

:15:46.:15:49.

which is what we want and we see therefore fewer people who while in

:15:50.:15:55.

acute crisis, how does he deal with the fact there are fewer people who

:15:56.:16:00.

need to be treated in specialist centres and therefore there are

:16:01.:16:02.

likely to be a smaller number of them? It is a good point. I think,

:16:03.:16:09.

again, it means we need to think afresh and innovate. The third

:16:10.:16:15.

sector has been very good at coming up with concepts such as crisis

:16:16.:16:22.

houses, where, at a low cost, they camera vied a facility in a locality

:16:23.:16:27.

where someone can go at a moment of crisis, who may not need a formal

:16:28.:16:32.

admission to a hospital, and it may well be a much more therapeutic

:16:33.:16:37.

place to be as they get through their crisis. I was in Hertfordshire

:16:38.:16:42.

recently, visiting the Hertfordshire partnership trust, and they have

:16:43.:16:48.

host families that as an addition to crisis houses, where someone can go

:16:49.:16:55.

if it is appropriate for them to be with a family for a week or whatever

:16:56.:17:01.

is necessary. That may well be what exactly is needed, rather than the

:17:02.:17:05.

cold, clinical environment of a hospital ward. So this sort of

:17:06.:17:12.

innovation is what is needed in order to ensure we have services

:17:13.:17:20.

that patients' needs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to share with the

:17:21.:17:25.

House a testimony of a constituent who has experienced this. It is

:17:26.:17:34.

quite shocking. It is an anonymous testimony, for obvious reasons, but

:17:35.:17:40.

it is very powerful nonetheless. It reads as follows. I was admitted to

:17:41.:17:46.

accident and emergency at the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital on a

:17:47.:17:51.

Wednesday afternoon, following a suicide attempt. I be gained

:17:52.:17:54.

consciousness the following day, having been transferred to the acute

:17:55.:18:00.

medical unit. It was quickie decided that I needed to be admitted to a

:18:01.:18:05.

mental health ward. I had previously been on a board in Norwich. At this

:18:06.:18:15.

point, I was woozy, suffering from a dangerously low mood and angry that

:18:16.:18:20.

my suicide attempt had failed. I was at grave risk of making another

:18:21.:18:24.

attempt at my life. Throughout Thursday and Friday, efforts were

:18:25.:18:29.

being made to find a mental health bed. This is what happens in the

:18:30.:18:33.

system. My parents were frantically try to find out what was happening

:18:34.:18:38.

as they were desperate for me to be looked after locally. For a time, we

:18:39.:18:44.

were told I would be going back to that ward but the news kept changing

:18:45.:18:49.

between there and a unit in London. London is 100 20 miles away from

:18:50.:18:55.

Norwich, and further away from my constituent... Home. -- 120 miles

:18:56.:19:04.

was the we were told later that they be going to South London. During

:19:05.:19:08.

Friday, I twice walked out of the ward and the hospital, without Mike

:19:09.:19:14.

absence being noticed. I went down to the road near the hospital with

:19:15.:19:21.

the intention of walking in front of a bus or lorry. The main reason I

:19:22.:19:24.

did not go through with it was because I did not want the vehicle

:19:25.:19:28.

to swerve into an oncoming car and cause death or injury to someone

:19:29.:19:33.

else. Meanwhile, my parents resort it to contacting the crisis team as

:19:34.:19:38.

they could not get any information from the bed team. A member of the

:19:39.:19:42.

crisis team took responsibility for finding out what was happening, and

:19:43.:19:45.

he was able to let me know that I was being transferred to South

:19:46.:19:52.

London later that Friday evening. Finally, after more uncertainty, and

:19:53.:19:55.

this bit is really shocking, two men arrived to take me to London. At

:19:56.:20:02.

10pm, feeling suicide or frightened and confused, I got into the back of

:20:03.:20:06.

a private ambulance, which was no more than an austere minibus and was

:20:07.:20:14.

driven from Norwich. During the three-hour drive, I was spoken to

:20:15.:20:18.

just once by one of the two men and felt more like a prisoner being

:20:19.:20:23.

transported than a patient. This is the way our NHS deals with someone

:20:24.:20:28.

who is acutely ill. It is shocking and ought not to be accepted. By

:20:29.:20:34.

1am, completely disoriented, I arrived at the front for the mental

:20:35.:20:39.

health unit in south London. After lots of knocking at the door,

:20:40.:20:42.

someone answered and I was handed over with a quick good luck. I was

:20:43.:20:47.

booked in and shown to my room. I felt isolated and scared. My room

:20:48.:20:51.

was nice but unit felt like a prison. The internal doors were like

:20:52.:20:56.

cell doors and there was a tiny outdoor area fringed by a high fence

:20:57.:21:01.

with spikes on the top. It was a mixed ward, both in terms of sex and

:21:02.:21:06.

illness. People with depression and anxiety were alongside those with

:21:07.:21:10.

psychosis, personality disorders and acute problems. I will make specific

:21:11.:21:16.

reference to that. It is shocking to throw a whole load of people with

:21:17.:21:21.

completely different conditions together. It is probably the most

:21:22.:21:27.

un-therapeutic environment you could possibly imagine. It is containing

:21:28.:21:31.

people, not caring for people. It ought to be a thing of the past. I

:21:32.:21:37.

am grateful to Mike right honourable friend and neighbour for giving way.

:21:38.:21:41.

I had a similar case in King's Lynn, which I cannot go into because

:21:42.:21:47.

it ended in tragedy, with the individual committing suicide,

:21:48.:21:51.

having made an attempt. But he agreed that one of the absolute key

:21:52.:21:54.

aspects of such cases is that there is proper monitoring and supervision

:21:55.:21:59.

of the individual whose life is obviously at risk during a

:22:00.:22:02.

particular episode of this kind? It is absolutely critical that that

:22:03.:22:13.

happens, not only monitoring, but proper treatment. As I will go on to

:22:14.:22:16.

describe in this case, that is not what happened here. He says, the

:22:17.:22:21.

following morning I had a meeting with my named nurse.

:22:22.:22:26.

Extraordinarily, it was the only real conversation I had with him

:22:27.:22:29.

until I was discharged back to Norfolk, ten days later. That is not

:22:30.:22:38.

therapeutic care. It is neglect. I have incidentally asked whether

:22:39.:22:41.

there are any contractual requirements on the private provider

:22:42.:22:48.

who divided that care, in inverted commas, and you received a

:22:49.:22:53.

substantial sum of money for it -- who received. I was told it would be

:22:54.:22:56.

understood there would be therapeutic care, but there was no

:22:57.:23:03.

apparent requirement, in return for such an out of public money being

:23:04.:23:07.

spent on his car. He goes on, the care was unacceptable, it felt as

:23:08.:23:12.

though I was being kept in a holding facility, and my mental health

:23:13.:23:15.

deteriorated, with Mike suicidal thoughts increases -- my suicidal.

:23:16.:23:23.

In stark contrast to Norwich, the staff were told -- in behind a heavy

:23:24.:23:33.

steel door, I rarely had a conversation within in member of

:23:34.:23:40.

staff, my parents were horrified by what they are encountered, both the

:23:41.:23:45.

level of care and my deterioration. They were constantly contacting the

:23:46.:23:48.

Norfolk and Suffolk mental health trusts to try to get me moved back

:23:49.:23:53.

to Norfolk, the stress made them both ill. This is the impact you

:23:54.:23:57.

have on families as well. Thankfully, their persistence paid

:23:58.:24:00.

off and after ten days I was told that I was going to be recalled. I

:24:01.:24:04.

had a brief period of uncertainty, as I didn't know whether I would be

:24:05.:24:10.

going to Helston, King's Lynn or Great Yarmouth. Eventually I was

:24:11.:24:14.

told it would be Helston, and I got into a taxi with a member of staff

:24:15.:24:19.

and was driven from south London to there. When I arrived there and

:24:20.:24:23.

cried, mainly through relief. I was greeted with compassion and

:24:24.:24:27.

understanding by the staff, and, after ten wasted and expensive days,

:24:28.:24:34.

my recovery finally began. That experience, sadly, Madam Deputy

:24:35.:24:40.

Speaker, is repeated day in day out across the NHS. It is a scandal that

:24:41.:24:44.

it continues. One of the things that I will be put to the Minister at the

:24:45.:24:49.

end of this is that I want his commitment to end this practice.

:24:50.:24:53.

Because it is intolerable that it continues in this day and age. But I

:24:54.:25:00.

will come back to that. I also mention,s, the cost. There has been

:25:01.:25:07.

-- Madam Deputy Speaker. There has been an analysis done by I think the

:25:08.:25:19.

confidential enquiries into suicide in patient care. And the

:25:20.:25:29.

understanding they have, looking at 29 providers, is that the cost of

:25:30.:25:35.

out of area placements went up from ?51.4 million to ?65.2 million in

:25:36.:25:44.

2014-15. Now, that is an extraordinary amount of money to

:25:45.:25:48.

spend on an unacceptable practice. And it again demonstrates that with

:25:49.:25:54.

smarter use of the resources available, it should be possible to

:25:55.:25:59.

bring an end to this practice. I mentioned earlier the question of

:26:00.:26:06.

suicide, and the connection between out of area placements and the risk

:26:07.:26:12.

of suicide. And I quote here, worryingly, the National

:26:13.:26:17.

confidential inquiry on suicide and homicide has found that being

:26:18.:26:21.

treated out of area also increases someone's risk of suicide. The

:26:22.:26:25.

pattern is most apparent in England, where suicides bite in patients and

:26:26.:26:31.

patients recently discharged from hospital has fallen, although

:26:32.:26:38.

patients from out of area ward have increased. The annual number of

:26:39.:26:42.

suicides after discharge from non-local unit has increased from 68

:26:43.:26:53.

in 2003-2007, two 109 between 2008 and 2012. Experts have warned that

:26:54.:26:57.

mental health patients are at the highest risk of taking their own

:26:58.:27:01.

lives in the first two weeks after being discharged from hospital. And

:27:02.:27:08.

these figures confirm that. Now, we are talking about a risk of people

:27:09.:27:13.

actually losing their lives, surely we have to see the absolute

:27:14.:27:18.

importance of bringing this practice to an end. I also wanted to refer,

:27:19.:27:25.

Madam Deputy Speaker, to a recent report by the independent

:27:26.:27:27.

mental-health services Alliance. It is called Breaking Down Barriers,

:27:28.:27:33.

Improving Patient Access And Outcomes In Mental Health. It makes

:27:34.:27:38.

the point that the thing that I have been arguing for consistently, the

:27:39.:27:43.

introduction of comprehensive waiting time standards in mental

:27:44.:27:47.

health, so that somebody with a mental health problem has exactly

:27:48.:27:49.

the same right of access to treatment as anyone else, must be a

:27:50.:27:56.

priority. But it also goes on to say, people who end up in and out of

:27:57.:28:03.

area placement, sometimes perhaps a long way away from home, get lost in

:28:04.:28:08.

the system. They almost get forgotten about. They are away from

:28:09.:28:14.

the Commissioners, they are away from the, and they can sometimes

:28:15.:28:20.

languish in these centres for far too long. And that again seems to be

:28:21.:28:26.

completely intolerable. And they make reference also to the problem

:28:27.:28:31.

of delayed discharge. They say, and I quote "we have found that between

:28:32.:28:39.

2013-14, the number of delayed discharge per month for trusts

:28:40.:28:44.

providing mental-health services increased by 22.2%. That indicates

:28:45.:28:50.

that the late discharges are having an increased impact on patients'

:28:51.:28:54.

access to appropriate care." In other words, if beds are clogged up

:28:55.:29:00.

by people who are ready to leave all go home or go to another facility,

:29:01.:29:05.

but can't, because nothing else is arranged for them, then somebody

:29:06.:29:08.

else, at a moment of crisis, cannot get access to a bed and get shunted

:29:09.:29:13.

off, sometimes on the way away from home. A completely unacceptable

:29:14.:29:18.

practice -- a long way away from home. It begs reference to children

:29:19.:29:24.

and young people's mental-health services. The Minister will be

:29:25.:29:26.

particularly responsible about a key concern about children being

:29:27.:29:31.

shunted, often hundreds of miles away from home. And intolerable

:29:32.:29:36.

practice, and I know it has happened in the south-west, there has been a

:29:37.:29:40.

particular shortage of beds for children in the south-west. There

:29:41.:29:45.

was an inquiry undertaken by a team within NHS England, which came up

:29:46.:29:51.

with recommendations for eradicating this problem. And the task force

:29:52.:30:00.

report, Future In Mind,, that we published shortly before the general

:30:01.:30:04.

election, pointed to the absolute need to care for people close to

:30:05.:30:09.

home, to have better prices support, to avoid admissions where possible

:30:10.:30:15.

-- crisis support. But the practice continues, and again it must be a

:30:16.:30:18.

priority for the Minister to bring this practice to an end. One of the

:30:19.:30:27.

things that Future In Mind sought to address is this awful tiering of

:30:28.:30:30.

care within children's mental health services. If you are in Tier four as

:30:31.:30:38.

a child, and you are put into Tier four from Tier three because the

:30:39.:30:46.

judgment is that you need more acute inpatient care, then the financial

:30:47.:30:53.

responsibility for your care is transferred to NHS England. So there

:30:54.:30:56.

is an incentive for local commissioners to push them into the

:30:57.:31:00.

top tier, which is precisely the opposite of what ought to be

:31:01.:31:05.

happening. We ought to be focusing our incentives on preventing

:31:06.:31:09.

deterioration of health, not shunting people into the most acute

:31:10.:31:13.

care, and then too often away from home. Just imagine for a moment what

:31:14.:31:17.

it must be like for parents of perhaps a 14-year-old child who is

:31:18.:31:23.

taken into a unit, 100 or 200 miles away from home, it is really

:31:24.:31:27.

shocking. And it is a practice that this Government hopefully will feel

:31:28.:31:33.

the need to commit to eradicating as quickly as possible. Madam Deputy

:31:34.:31:42.

Speaker, when this issue came to my attention as Minister, I asked

:31:43.:31:49.

officials to provide me with data to find out what was happening around

:31:50.:31:55.

the country. I was confronted I F O why requests by campaigning

:31:56.:32:00.

organisations -- Freedom of information. And news reports of

:32:01.:32:03.

shocking things happening around the system. I had no information to base

:32:04.:32:11.

my own judgment on. And I was told by officials that we didn't collect

:32:12.:32:17.

data on this. So, Government operates in a complete fog. We rely

:32:18.:32:22.

on campaigning organisations are making choir rose under Freedom of

:32:23.:32:28.

Information Act, and I would urge the Minister -- to make enquiries. I

:32:29.:32:31.

urge the Minister to use what powers of persuasion he has not to

:32:32.:32:36.

undermine freedom of information, because there is a process underway

:32:37.:32:40.

at the moment which runs the risk of achieving precisely that will stop

:32:41.:32:45.

its a really important way of holding Government to account. But,

:32:46.:32:52.

I was faced with no information, no data at all, on this practice. So we

:32:53.:32:58.

initiated a process to start the collection of data. We now have data

:32:59.:33:04.

collected. It is still in experimental form. But it is better

:33:05.:33:08.

than nothing. What the data shows is, first of all, extraordinary

:33:09.:33:13.

variation around the country. And this comes back to my point that it

:33:14.:33:18.

is not just about extra money, it is also about practice, good practice,

:33:19.:33:23.

learning from the areas of best practice. What we discover is that

:33:24.:33:26.

there many mental health trusts around the country who have no out

:33:27.:33:30.

of area placement at all. Funded in broadly the same way as other areas,

:33:31.:33:35.

and yet there are over areas there who have a and unacceptable problem

:33:36.:33:41.

-- other areas. The latest data, and there is a three-month delay, I'm

:33:42.:33:46.

afraid, before the data is published. So we are looking at data

:33:47.:33:50.

from the end of August. But at the end of August there were 2198 pupil

:33:51.:33:58.

in-out of area placement is -- people. And that has demonstrated a

:33:59.:34:03.

drift upwards. What we are loved entirely clear on -- we are not

:34:04.:34:10.

entirely clear on whether this is a question of more data or whether

:34:11.:34:14.

this is a worsening of the problem. And I don't want to draw the wrong

:34:15.:34:17.

conclusions from that. But certainly the numbers do not appear to be

:34:18.:34:21.

going down. One particular issue I wanted to raise with the Minister is

:34:22.:34:28.

that the data is incomplete. Because there are a number of private

:34:29.:34:33.

providers who refuse to return data. Now, they are contractually

:34:34.:34:38.

obliged in their contractual dealings with the NHS to return that

:34:39.:34:45.

data. I raised it with officials and with the information centre when I

:34:46.:34:49.

was Minister. But surely this is completely unacceptable. I have no

:34:50.:34:54.

difficulty with a good private provider providing a good quality

:34:55.:34:58.

service, but they absolutely must play by the same rules as everybody

:34:59.:35:03.

else. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way, and to bring you back

:35:04.:35:09.

to the point is making earlier about Freedom of information, is it not

:35:10.:35:12.

right, and in fact there is a case for extending Freedom of

:35:13.:35:16.

information, to insure that private companies that are doing public

:35:17.:35:21.

works, they are actually covered in exactly the same weight by F O why,

:35:22.:35:24.

and I devised the Health Secretary that it applies to many other

:35:25.:35:29.

sectors as well -- exactly the same way as Freedom of information. There

:35:30.:35:32.

should be a level playing field, and there is in that moment. What we

:35:33.:35:37.

have now is an unacceptable situation of incomplete data because

:35:38.:35:40.

some private providers are refusing to play ball. And it leaves one

:35:41.:35:45.

suspicious, because if they are not providing data about how many people

:35:46.:35:49.

are being held, it is impossible then told the system to account. And

:35:50.:35:54.

indeed to hold those private providers to account. So, the

:35:55.:36:01.

Minister needs to provide a way of holding those people to account and

:36:02.:36:04.

insuring that they provide the data that they are obliged to provide.

:36:05.:36:13.

Along with the variation, there is also the fact that there is a

:36:14.:36:19.

horrific number of people who are still being sent a considerable

:36:20.:36:25.

distance away from home. At the end of August, over 500 people, 501

:36:26.:36:30.

people, were sent more than 50 coulomb it is away from home. --

:36:31.:36:36.

kilometres. That surely is intolerable, given what I said about

:36:37.:36:40.

the increased risk of suicide, the fact that it does not provide

:36:41.:36:44.

therapeutic care, the containment of some would even ten days has

:36:45.:36:49.

enormous cost to the public purse -- the containment of somebody. This is

:36:50.:36:53.

the most outrageous misuse, it seems to me, public money. And there are

:36:54.:36:59.

some persistent areas where the problem is at its greatest. In

:37:00.:37:05.

Devon, the Devon partnership NHS Trust, in August had 45 people out

:37:06.:37:13.

of area. Now, the caveat is that we don't know precisely where

:37:14.:37:17.

responsibility lies. Whether it is a commissioning issue, provide issue,

:37:18.:37:24.

but this is their local provider -- eight provide issue. One would

:37:25.:37:29.

expect it to be provided by the local provider. 45 people, let me

:37:30.:37:33.

just finished the point, that means significantly more than one person

:37:34.:37:38.

every day is shunted more than 50 coulomb it is away from.

:37:39.:37:45.

Has any analysis being done and whether the families in these cases

:37:46.:37:51.

have been contacted? Surely it is incredibly important that one of the

:37:52.:37:57.

strands of support for these patients is through their family.

:37:58.:38:03.

These cases involved families being informed and having been given

:38:04.:38:12.

permission for them being moved? We don't know that. The information is

:38:13.:38:15.

very basic. It is a crucial area and I imagine that, often,

:38:16.:38:21.

communications do fall down when these urgent referrals to another

:38:22.:38:27.

location take place. I raise another issue is about families, and that is

:38:28.:38:30.

the fact that, imagine if you are having to visit a loved one 50: That

:38:31.:38:37.

is, 100, it is away from home, it is the cost involved. We in the chamber

:38:38.:38:43.

can afford to visit a loved one and any of us could be in that

:38:44.:38:46.

situation. But there are many who cannot afford to do that. That is

:38:47.:38:49.

another reason why that is intolerable. I thank the honourable

:38:50.:38:59.

gentleman for giving way. It is interesting to hear his statistics

:39:00.:39:03.

around my area of Devon. One of the issues is the point he raised, the

:39:04.:39:13.

king indications -- the king communications. The thing is, you

:39:14.:39:23.

are presented with a choice of, this is what treatment your loved one

:39:24.:39:28.

needs, this is where they need to be. It leaves the family feeling

:39:29.:39:34.

desperate and guilty that they cannot do anything to help their

:39:35.:39:38.

loved one. They feel powerless to do anything about it. There is a little

:39:39.:39:43.

boy called Josh Wills. This is a related issue of a boy with autism,

:39:44.:39:49.

from Cornwall. He was placed in a specialist unit in Birmingham.

:39:50.:39:56.

Imagine the journey that his parents had to do every week from Cornwall

:39:57.:40:02.

to Birmingham. He was there for over three years. I had to intervene

:40:03.:40:09.

personally as minister to get the ministers to London to try and

:40:10.:40:13.

sorted out. He is now back in Cornwall but it has taken too long

:40:14.:40:17.

for that happen. -- to get the commissioners to London. I should

:40:18.:40:23.

also mention in terms of the areas where the problem is at its worst,

:40:24.:40:30.

Lancashire had 30 cases in August. Again, one a day. Kent and Medway

:40:31.:40:36.

NHS and social care partnership trust, 30. West London mental health

:40:37.:40:47.

NHS Trust, 25. Birmingham and Solihull, 25. Again, there is the

:40:48.:40:50.

caveat that we don't know where responsibility lies. But we should

:40:51.:40:55.

surely accept that the practice is not acceptable and has to be brought

:40:56.:41:03.

to an end. I should also say that the data focuses on nonspecialist

:41:04.:41:08.

beds. It is fair to say that there will be cases, just as with a

:41:09.:41:12.

physical health problem, where a patient needs a specialist input and

:41:13.:41:16.

where a referral to a specialist hospital, such as Papworth, may be

:41:17.:41:24.

appropriate. These are nonspecialist beds where care should be provided,

:41:25.:41:31.

surely, closer to home. We got this data and it allows us to hold the

:41:32.:41:41.

system to account. Along with establishing this dataset, we also

:41:42.:41:55.

got Monitor and the TDA to do "deep dives" into organisations and those

:41:56.:42:02.

with a bad record with out of area placements to try and understand

:42:03.:42:05.

better what was going on. When they reported back to me as a result of

:42:06.:42:11.

their work, their conclusion was, this was a problem that ought to be

:42:12.:42:16.

solvable. This was the important point for the Minister. It is not

:42:17.:42:21.

something that we would all love to do but it is not possible, it is

:42:22.:42:27.

achievable, but it requires drive, ambition and determination to see it

:42:28.:42:33.

through. If I may, as an ex-minister, just offer a bit of

:42:34.:42:40.

advice to the current incumbent in this position, in my view, it is no

:42:41.:42:51.

good just saying we need to make incremental improvements, we need to

:42:52.:42:56.

make sure that we say that this is not acceptable. Someone in a mental

:42:57.:42:58.

health crisis who does not require specialist care should not be sent

:42:59.:43:05.

away from home. At all. It is not a difficult issue, it should become

:43:06.:43:18.

what the NHS knows as and "never event" how can we tolerate it. The

:43:19.:43:23.

Minister has two set the objective of ending the practice. I understand

:43:24.:43:29.

that it takes time. My view was that I wanted to see it end by the end of

:43:30.:43:34.

this calendar year. This was back in March. I recognise that is now not

:43:35.:43:39.

achievable. But I set the objective of ending it within a year, within

:43:40.:43:44.

12 months. It is achievable provided there is drive, ambition and purpose

:43:45.:43:49.

to make it happen. May I raise a related issue? That is of money. I

:43:50.:43:57.

have made very clear that I totally sign up to the importance of trying

:43:58.:44:00.

to do things differently, to make better use of resources to achieve

:44:01.:44:05.

good results for people. But there is also an issue of the investment

:44:06.:44:10.

needed in mental health. In the March Budget, Nick Clegg... I do

:44:11.:44:19.

apologise, Madame Debord is bigger, the right honourable member for

:44:20.:44:22.

Sheffield Hallam, secured in negotiation as part of the run-up to

:44:23.:44:29.

the Budget, money for the five-year period over this Parliament in extra

:44:30.:44:36.

investment in children and young people's mental health services. In

:44:37.:44:42.

year one, the amount that ought to have arrived for those services on

:44:43.:44:49.

an equitable division of 1.25 billion would have been 250 million.

:44:50.:44:56.

In fact, the amount made available was 143 million. A shortfall. We

:44:57.:45:02.

were told that this was because we were partway through the year, we

:45:03.:45:05.

had had the general election, we needed to make sure that the money

:45:06.:45:11.

was spent effectively. I sort of accepted that as an explanation but

:45:12.:45:18.

I have since heard from reliable sources that, actually, there was a

:45:19.:45:22.

bit of a land grab going on and, in order to pop the finances of acute

:45:23.:45:28.

hospitals, perhaps, that money was taken away from children and young

:45:29.:45:34.

people's mental health services. I urge the Government to ensure that

:45:35.:45:37.

we make good the shortfall in future years. The Minister, really

:45:38.:45:44.

helpfully, on the 13th of October, reconfirmed that the full ?1.25

:45:45.:45:51.

billion would be spending this Parliament, and I call on him to

:45:52.:45:54.

repeat that commitment today. It is completely critical that an amount

:45:55.:45:58.

of money in extra investment confirmed in the Budget in March is

:45:59.:46:05.

stuck to. It is a matter of good faith by the Government and I would

:46:06.:46:08.

like to hear that confirmation. I also think we need to make good the

:46:09.:46:14.

shortfall in year two. Just as with the rest of the NHS, frontloading of

:46:15.:46:19.

this money to invest in change is the best way to make the best use of

:46:20.:46:26.

the resources available. So, Madam Deputy is bigger, I moved

:46:27.:46:31.

towards the end of my rather elongated contribution, due to the

:46:32.:46:35.

additional time we have available to us. I wanted to just end by asking

:46:36.:46:44.

specific questions of the Minister, and I would be really grateful if he

:46:45.:46:48.

could address each of them directly this afternoon. If on any of them he

:46:49.:46:54.

is unable to give a direct answer this afternoon, I would be really

:46:55.:46:57.

grateful if he could write to me as soon as possible to respond directly

:46:58.:47:04.

to these questions. The first question is the issue of principle.

:47:05.:47:10.

Does he accept that this practice is unacceptable? I am not talking about

:47:11.:47:15.

specialist beds, I am talking about nonspecialist beds where someone in

:47:16.:47:19.

a mound of acute mental health crisis is shunted around the

:47:20.:47:22.

country, a practice that would never be tolerated in physical health.

:47:23.:47:28.

Will he commit to ending this practice completely within 12

:47:29.:47:36.

months, to make it a never event? Will he personally drive this

:47:37.:47:41.

change, because, from experience, this is what is necessary. It needs

:47:42.:47:47.

to be on the case constantly to ensure that the system responds to

:47:48.:47:54.

this moral imperative. Will he ensure that all providers provide

:47:55.:48:01.

the data that they are obliged by their contracts to provide to the

:48:02.:48:07.

information centre? Anything short of that is, again, completely

:48:08.:48:16.

unacceptable. Next, the data is still in an experimental form. The

:48:17.:48:23.

information centre describes the fact that... In the notes to the

:48:24.:48:32.

data, it says that it provides a reference point for more accurate

:48:33.:48:39.

measurement in the future. That means that this has two of old will

:48:40.:48:42.

stop there has to be an air pollution to get to the point -- and

:48:43.:48:47.

evolution to get to the point where there is more accurate data to make

:48:48.:48:52.

sure that providers and commissioners can be held to

:48:53.:48:55.

account. Can he ensure that the experiment data is turned into final

:48:56.:49:02.

four data that we can all rely on -- final form data that we can all be

:49:03.:49:08.

liable? Will he give us is absolute commitment to ensuring that ?1.25

:49:09.:49:20.

billion is spent in additional investment in children and young

:49:21.:49:22.

people's mental health in this Department? Will he also commit to

:49:23.:49:31.

sticking with the vision that we published in October this last

:49:32.:49:39.

year, to introduce waiting times standards. I did that work that led

:49:40.:49:43.

to that document in collaboration with the Secretary of State, who was

:49:44.:49:46.

incredibly helpful in supporting me getting that published. But the

:49:47.:49:53.

vision was very clear. It recognised that, until we have come prances

:49:54.:49:58.

waiting time standards in mental health, as exist within physical

:49:59.:50:03.

health, we will not get equality of access to treatment? It seems

:50:04.:50:11.

essential that in a publicly funded service that every person must have

:50:12.:50:15.

the same right to get treatment on a timely basis, evidence -based

:50:16.:50:21.

treatment, as anyone else. As indicated already, will he write to

:50:22.:50:26.

confirm any specific point that he heals unable to deal with this

:50:27.:50:30.

afternoon? Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

:50:31.:50:37.

Thank you. We have been very fortunate this afternoon in having

:50:38.:50:40.

rather longer than we normally get in an adjournment abate, which has

:50:41.:50:46.

allowed the right honourable gentleman to be able to talk at

:50:47.:50:53.

greater length about some of the issues affecting the historic

:50:54.:50:57.

imbalance between mental and physical health, with particular

:50:58.:51:02.

relationship to the out of area mental health placements. I am

:51:03.:51:06.

delighted, therefore, to congratulate him on securing the

:51:07.:51:12.

debate and to be able to respond to it. Can I thank the opportunity that

:51:13.:51:20.

has been taken by a number of honourable and right honourable

:51:21.:51:27.

Jedward to take part? -- the right honourable gentleman.

:51:28.:51:37.

I see in his place the right or member for... Hails Owen. You are

:51:38.:51:44.

the whip, Madam. You are always there. Which we welcome and

:51:45.:51:51.

acknowledge. My honourable friend, the member for hails Owen, has

:51:52.:51:57.

dropped in as part of his responsible it is in the House was

:51:58.:52:00.

the House will stop I welcome that as well. I welcome my honourable

:52:01.:52:04.

friend the whip for her attendance on the bench.

:52:05.:52:09.

Before I come to respond in more detail, I will make some general

:52:10.:52:16.

remarks. The honourable gentleman made reference at the beginning to

:52:17.:52:18.

the long-standing nature of some of these problems. These issues have

:52:19.:52:22.

not arisen in the past six months. They have been there for some time.

:52:23.:52:28.

Government in, government out. The coalition government made huge

:52:29.:52:31.

strides in recognising the importance of mental health and

:52:32.:52:35.

driving forward some of the changes that need to be made.

:52:36.:52:43.

Part of my responsibility is to pick up on that and build on it. If I

:52:44.:52:50.

could just make reference to the honourable gentleman, his cheek

:52:51.:52:57.

achievements included the expansion of psychological therapies, the

:52:58.:53:01.

reduction of use in police cells, introducing the first access and

:53:02.:53:04.

waiting time standards and piloting that sense that there has to be

:53:05.:53:10.

parity of esteem and that is absolutely, those achievements have

:53:11.:53:15.

underpinned what I come in to find in the Department. The intractable

:53:16.:53:20.

nature of some of the problems has been graphically illustrated by its

:53:21.:53:25.

passionate expression today of some of the things he was not able to do

:53:26.:53:30.

during his time as Minister and I find his second baseline for what I

:53:31.:53:40.

am hoping to do. The bar has been set quite high. As he mentioned, as

:53:41.:53:48.

others have mentioned, I think what has puzzled me most is the

:53:49.:53:56.

variability of practice. How it is that in two areas, often

:53:57.:53:59.

side-by-side with the same resources, there is in one a set of

:54:00.:54:04.

procedures in place which ensured that good treatment is provided and

:54:05.:54:08.

in another that that is not the case. It is not always about

:54:09.:54:14.

resources. It's about management, leadership and I have been puzzled

:54:15.:54:17.

as to why there is so much of this around the place. Secondly, a father

:54:18.:54:23.

puzzle which is very pertinent to what we will be talking about

:54:24.:54:28.

today, again the honourable gentleman the perverse incentives in

:54:29.:54:33.

the system. The fact that because treatment costs are split between

:54:34.:54:37.

the local authorities and NHS, it seems to suit people's budgets to

:54:38.:54:42.

decide treatment based not on what is best for the patient but what is

:54:43.:54:48.

best for the budget. When you are dealing with people and the

:54:49.:54:54.

honourable gentleman's description from his letter of his constituent

:54:55.:54:58.

which I know about because I responded to him this week, it

:54:59.:55:03.

illustrates what the impact is on the individual of decisions that

:55:04.:55:08.

people are making for perverse incentive reasons, four budget, if

:55:09.:55:16.

perhaps that was one of the reasons and IM interested in why there is

:55:17.:55:19.

such variability between areas, areas that have few out of area

:55:20.:55:25.

places and others that do not. Let me come onto this and put one or two

:55:26.:55:31.

things on the record before I deal with all the questions because I

:55:32.:55:36.

hope to be able to do so. The government's commitment is clear. We

:55:37.:55:40.

have given the NHS more money than ever before for mental health with

:55:41.:55:46.

an increase of ?11.4 billion. We have made it clear that local

:55:47.:55:51.

services must follow our lead by increasing the amount they spent on

:55:52.:55:55.

mental health and making sure beds are always available. We announced

:55:56.:55:59.

an additional ?600 million for mental health over the next five

:56:00.:56:04.

years for increasing psychological therapies, crisis care and perinatal

:56:05.:56:14.

health. In perinatal mental health services, I want to ensure that

:56:15.:56:18.

women are able to access the right care at the right time and close to

:56:19.:56:22.

home. I know that the provision of specialist Perrin until then to

:56:23.:56:26.

health services varies. Some women have access to excellent care and

:56:27.:56:31.

support while there are serious gaps in other areas. Women suffering the

:56:32.:56:45.

most severe perinatal mental health promises need the most important

:56:46.:56:52.

health care and services. Nice estimates there is a UK shortfall

:56:53.:56:59.

between 60 to 80 baby and mother unit beds. That's why we announced

:57:00.:57:03.

the government will invest an additional ?75 million over the next

:57:04.:57:09.

five years, ?50 million per year to support women with mental health in

:57:10.:57:12.

the perinatal period. -- ?15 million. The honourable gentleman's

:57:13.:57:23.

work has made that base and I give him as much as she rents as I can do

:57:24.:57:29.

in the areas where he set the work in progress, that will continue. In

:57:30.:57:33.

places where I think the work is going slowly, it will be challenged.

:57:34.:57:37.

In places where he was not able to make the progress he wanted to make,

:57:38.:57:41.

I set myself the challenge to do just that. I don't have to worry an

:57:42.:57:48.

awful lot about Freedom of information requests because I get

:57:49.:57:51.

the questions from him and a number of other friends and colleagues in

:57:52.:57:58.

the house who have grasped how important this is. Coming to this

:57:59.:58:03.

particular issue, the source of the debate, I also appreciate the work

:58:04.:58:09.

the honourable gentleman put in train earlier this year with NHS

:58:10.:58:14.

England and mental health provider organisations to understand the

:58:15.:58:17.

pressures that lead to people being sent away from home for treatment

:58:18.:58:22.

which should be available locally. This has helped provide a picture of

:58:23.:58:25.

the scale of the problem and raise its profile. We know the principle

:58:26.:58:30.

should always be care close to home in the least restrictive setting. It

:58:31.:58:34.

is not acceptable for people to be troubling for miles when they are

:58:35.:58:39.

acutely unwell. Going back again to that case that the honourable

:58:40.:58:42.

gentleman raised which I know about having dealt with this week, I also

:58:43.:58:48.

agree with him that some of the attitudes expressed by some of those

:58:49.:58:51.

responsible for people's care are not good enough. It cannot be

:58:52.:58:57.

acceptable and cannot have been acceptable that we seem to have

:58:58.:59:02.

listened a bit too little to those that are in care or have been cared

:59:03.:59:06.

for when they have made complaints about treatment. I am well aware

:59:07.:59:12.

because I occasionally chased on Twitter about this and I say I am

:59:13.:59:15.

looking carefully at how I can deal with this better, sometimes people

:59:16.:59:20.

they feel they have not been listened to and we saw an example in

:59:21.:59:25.

his constituent's letter that this might be more common than we think.

:59:26.:59:30.

I want to ensured the inspection and regulation regime really picks

:59:31.:59:35.

things up. Sometimes there will be differences of opinion and there

:59:36.:59:38.

will be things that need to be clarified, but I do worry about the

:59:39.:59:44.

attitudes that are sometimes expressed and I want to make sure

:59:45.:59:49.

that the department has really got hold of ensuring that those sort of

:59:50.:59:54.

complaints are picked up on wherever possible it has really been borrowed

:59:55.:00:01.

into to find out what went on. -- borrowed. One of the things

:00:02.:00:06.

highlighted in my constituent's case was the fact he was transported late

:00:07.:00:12.

at night, arriving at 1am and in another case of someone else from

:00:13.:00:17.

Norfolk in the same unit, that same week, who was collected at 1am from

:00:18.:00:21.

the unit to be brought back to Norfolk. This treats people like

:00:22.:00:26.

cattle, not human beings and I wonder whether he would be prepared

:00:27.:00:30.

to highlight to the Care Quality Commission that they ought to be

:00:31.:00:35.

investigated and exploring the transporting of people because that

:00:36.:00:40.

experience in a minibus effectively with someone who does not talk to

:00:41.:00:44.

them for three hours, arriving late at night is outrageous. He is right.

:00:45.:00:51.

Of course it is and I share with him the frustration he must have had. I

:00:52.:00:57.

write a lot of letters to colleagues who expressed concerns and have to

:00:58.:01:01.

signpost them to the other organisations now in the health

:01:02.:01:04.

sector who have responsibility particular decisions because quite

:01:05.:01:11.

rightly, local decisions ought to be local and trusts need to be

:01:12.:01:15.

accountable for what they are doing and occasionally I have to tell him

:01:16.:01:19.

it is frustrating when I feel I cannot pick up the phone and make my

:01:20.:01:24.

own enquiry, but we cannot run a system in which ministers

:01:25.:01:27.

arbitrarily pick up cases because they are the ones we know about.

:01:28.:01:32.

There has to be a structured system but I am looking at ways in which

:01:33.:01:38.

when particular things come tonight, I can use the authority of the

:01:39.:01:42.

department to make sure something has been really got into, even if it

:01:43.:01:49.

is somebody else's responsibility. That we in this house remain

:01:50.:01:52.

accountable for things and make sure that those statutory groups have a

:01:53.:01:57.

grip on something. I will be keen to do that. Would he agrees there is

:01:58.:02:06.

something fundamentally unsatisfactory and wrong about

:02:07.:02:09.

moving someone late at night unless you absolutely have to for medical

:02:10.:02:15.

and clinical reasons? Yes. It seems very puzzling that it should be a

:02:16.:02:24.

regular practice, if it is. It should not be the case. Of course

:02:25.:02:28.

there were all sorts of different pressures on the system, again to

:02:29.:02:33.

say it should never happen would not be appropriate, but in principle,

:02:34.:02:37.

moving people who are in a state of anxiety should be done with maximum

:02:38.:02:42.

care at the time which is of greatest benefit to them and their

:02:43.:02:47.

health needs, so my honourable friend is right. Let me return to

:02:48.:02:52.

prepared remarks if I may. It is not acceptable for people for travelling

:02:53.:02:59.

miles when they are on well, it is not acceptable for staff phoning

:03:00.:03:03.

around finding a bed for their patients and can I make reference

:03:04.:03:09.

again to social media's impact. I picked up a Twitter a couple of

:03:10.:03:13.

weeks ago from a frustrated Doctor who I hope will pick up on this

:03:14.:03:19.

debate, he said that there was no bed available for a woman anywhere

:03:20.:03:24.

in England a particular day. Clearly, when I got the tweet and

:03:25.:03:32.

the honourable lady for Liverpool way victory raised it with me, we

:03:33.:03:37.

made enquiries and found out it was not technically true. There were

:03:38.:03:41.

beds available to which the response came back, Minister, you may be

:03:42.:03:46.

technically correct but it is very difficult to find them. From my

:03:47.:03:50.

enquiries, that seems to be right, so we need to find a better system

:03:51.:03:56.

of identifying beds available because that is part of the problem.

:03:57.:04:01.

We should not have people spending time looking for things and I have

:04:02.:04:06.

an idea for that, but I wanted to say to that particular clinician, I

:04:07.:04:11.

did not think what he said was technically true but I do

:04:12.:04:16.

acknowledge for those in the business of finding beds, it should

:04:17.:04:21.

not be as difficult as it is. We know they need to place people out

:04:22.:04:27.

of area, away from home, family and friends is a warning sign of a

:04:28.:04:30.

mental health system under pressure and we know nobody wants to spend

:04:31.:04:34.

scarce resource on sending people out of area. We can't look at

:04:35.:04:40.

treatment in isolation. They are part of the pathway as a whole. I

:04:41.:04:47.

welcome the report to review the provision of acute inpatient

:04:48.:04:50.

psychiatric care for adults and I'm looking forward to his final report

:04:51.:04:53.

and recommendations early in the New Year. The interim report highlighted

:04:54.:05:00.

the situation is more complex as I'm sure the honourable gentleman knows

:05:01.:05:05.

that being about a shortage of beds. While there has been a

:05:06.:05:09.

reduction in psychiatric beds, the report suggests thereafter enough

:05:10.:05:14.

beds if improvements are made to other parts of the system and

:05:15.:05:18.

integrated community-based systems were commissioned. The interim

:05:19.:05:26.

report also highlighted that the so-called bed crisis or admission

:05:27.:05:30.

crisis is a problem with discharges and alternatives to admission and

:05:31.:05:33.

can only be addressed through changes in services and the

:05:34.:05:37.

management of the whole system. As the honourable gentleman points out,

:05:38.:05:41.

this can be done as has been demonstrated by a number of local

:05:42.:05:45.

areas. In Sheffield they have entirely eliminated adult acute out

:05:46.:05:52.

of area treatments and brought occupancy down by investing in the

:05:53.:06:03.

system. Norfolk and Suffolk NHS Foundation Trust have begun to

:06:04.:06:08.

reduce a historic problem it had to reduce out of area treatments

:06:09.:06:10.

through a combination of investing in more acute adult beds and working

:06:11.:06:20.

with commissioners. I understand the independent mental health task force

:06:21.:06:23.

has spent some time discussing these issues. I hope the report will be an

:06:24.:06:30.

important driver for improving mental health services and address

:06:31.:06:32.

many of the issue raised by the interim report. Could he confirm the

:06:33.:06:49.

likely date of the publication of the task force report? I think he

:06:50.:06:54.

said New Year but what is the best estimate of that and secondly, I

:06:55.:06:59.

would like to acknowledge the Norfolk and Suffolk trust has made

:07:00.:07:02.

real progress. The numbers of people being sent out of area has come down

:07:03.:07:06.

significantly and that ought to be recognised.

:07:07.:07:11.

I'm grateful for what the gentleman said about his trust. My

:07:12.:07:17.

understanding is that the task force report will come through very

:07:18.:07:20.

shortly, I don't know if it will be this month or the start of next

:07:21.:07:25.

month, but it is imminent. The Secretary of State for Health, and I

:07:26.:07:29.

appreciate your kind remarks made about him, has already agreed an

:07:30.:07:34.

action plan to tackle out of area treatments for adult acute patient

:07:35.:07:38.

careful stop where out of area treatments are a problem, local

:07:39.:07:41.

areas will be asked to put in place clear action plans demonstrating how

:07:42.:07:48.

can introduce area treatments in the best interests of patients by 2017.

:07:49.:07:53.

Here I come to one of the challenges. Building on this, I

:07:54.:07:57.

intend to go further and put in place a national ambition to address

:07:58.:08:01.

out of area treatments. I will do this in consideration of the crisp

:08:02.:08:05.

commission and the task force report and communicate details by March

:08:06.:08:13.

next year. What I want to do is wait for what Lord crisp says, as well as

:08:14.:08:19.

the task force, and proceed as he suggests with what the ambition

:08:20.:08:23.

should be, complete elimination? Should provide much tighter

:08:24.:08:29.

variation? I want to get the reports before I set the ambition, but I

:08:30.:08:32.

will set the ambition, the targets, and I will come back to the house

:08:33.:08:36.

before the end of March next year to communicate that. I hope that is a

:08:37.:08:43.

help. Can I also commend The Right Honourable gentleman for recognising

:08:44.:08:46.

the need to improvement of health crisis care, and for launching the

:08:47.:08:50.

mental health crisis care concordant which we discussed in the course of

:08:51.:08:56.

the debate. Again, it was an opportunity to talk about practice,

:08:57.:09:03.

and the quality of Street try arch and different areas. I saw the work

:09:04.:09:07.

done in Bradford where they have their mental health practitioner in

:09:08.:09:11.

the control room, as opposed to being on the street, and various

:09:12.:09:17.

different things that are done. The galvanising of local groups working

:09:18.:09:22.

together, because they are given the responsibility of doing the job, has

:09:23.:09:30.

been absolutely vital. I think the way in which we are also dealing

:09:31.:09:33.

with reducing the numbers of those detained in police cells, as has

:09:34.:09:38.

been made reference to, is a clear example of how that process is

:09:39.:09:43.

working. Turning to children and young people, the government is

:09:44.:09:48.

equally committed to reducing out a very mental health treatment for

:09:49.:09:53.

children and young people. In patient admission is a relatively

:09:54.:09:58.

rare event, but at anyone time there are approximately 1300 young

:09:59.:10:03.

children and young people in England in adolescent services. These issues

:10:04.:10:08.

are usually subdivided into different specialties, such as

:10:09.:10:12.

eating disorder units, low security units, meaning it is challenging to

:10:13.:10:17.

provide compact scare in areas. On some occasions some children and

:10:18.:10:19.

young people might have to be referred for treatment away from

:10:20.:10:24.

their homes. Is that in the best interests in their care? We are

:10:25.:10:28.

committed to ensuring this is as rare and event as possible, and much

:10:29.:10:33.

progress has already been made. Norman Lamb. In the recommendations

:10:34.:10:40.

from the task force that NHS England established to look at tier four

:10:41.:10:44.

services and build numbers of beds required across the system, the

:10:45.:10:48.

variability around the country, one of the things they come up with was

:10:49.:10:52.

that itch it always be contained within a region, in other words, in

:10:53.:10:56.

the south-west, the child should never go out of the south-west to

:10:57.:11:02.

where ever it was, I think it was Berkshire. Is he sticking to that?

:11:03.:11:08.

Are we ensuring that is the objective and we are monitoring and

:11:09.:11:13.

meeting that? As best as possible, absolutely yes. There will be

:11:14.:11:17.

occasions when very specialised treatment has to be given, and on

:11:18.:11:22.

occasions that will be outside area, at a park that, absolutely.

:11:23.:11:26.

Appropriate care, appropriate to where people post is to where they

:11:27.:11:36.

are, as much as possible. -- close to where people are. Some people

:11:37.:11:42.

have had to travel long distances to access a bed, and there was the need

:11:43.:11:45.

for greater distribution around the country. There was an immediate

:11:46.:11:50.

response to this, 7 million of additional funding, taking the total

:11:51.:11:55.

number of beds to 1440, its highest ever number. NHS England has

:11:56.:12:00.

introduced new protocols for the referrals of this charge, and a new

:12:01.:12:04.

live bed monitoring system to make best use of capacity. It is that

:12:05.:12:10.

monitoring capacity, does that have relevance to the adult acute beds,

:12:11.:12:16.

and it could make the job of my coalition friend the better. We want

:12:17.:12:24.

to build on the process further. In January this year NHS England

:12:25.:12:27.

announced a comprehensive review of the book or meant and commissioning

:12:28.:12:33.

of patient beds, the aim of which is to establish long-term requirements

:12:34.:12:37.

for inpatient services and ensure quality sustainable services are in

:12:38.:12:39.

the right place based on population needs. It's enough simply to provide

:12:40.:12:46.

more beds to make sure communities are sustainable, we need to make

:12:47.:12:49.

sure community support is offered to children and young people. That's at

:12:50.:12:53.

the heart of the vision set out for the future in mind. Determined to

:12:54.:12:57.

make sure children and young people have access to the right support,

:12:58.:13:00.

the right service, at the right time, and is close to home as

:13:01.:13:04.

possible. Key to achieving this vision are the local area

:13:05.:13:08.

transformation plans now being put in place. CCGs have been asked to

:13:09.:13:13.

work with NHS commissioning teams in the creation of these plans. Two

:13:14.:13:21.

final points, and then a conclusion. Firstly, on data... I have also been

:13:22.:13:31.

interested in what data is available and what isn't. I answered a number

:13:32.:13:37.

of questions saying the data is not collected centrally. I looked at

:13:38.:13:41.

every question closely, are there occasions when we should be doing

:13:42.:13:46.

more with the data? There is still a lot to do. Much work, but I entirely

:13:47.:13:53.

take his point. On data, we are looking at the limitations. He was

:13:54.:13:56.

right to talk about the problems in getting the data set right. But I'm

:13:57.:14:02.

onto that, and I think it's essential, and I will take the

:14:03.:14:06.

challenge of driving and moving data. On providers, the

:14:07.:14:12.

responsibility seems to come down to CCGs. It's unacceptable that private

:14:13.:14:18.

providers do not submit data. More have started submitting since the

:14:19.:14:24.

summer, but it's still not good enough. If we need this information,

:14:25.:14:31.

we need it. I'm going to look at whether CCGs are using the

:14:32.:14:35.

contractual levers, and if not, why not? And if not, we can apply

:14:36.:14:40.

sanctions. That information is necessary and I'm glad to do it,

:14:41.:14:46.

he's absolutely right. In relation to his questions and points, the

:14:47.:14:56.

principal and determination, I will come back to you by March next year

:14:57.:15:00.

to set up a national ambition. Do I commit to ending the practice

:15:01.:15:04.

completely? I do not know yet because I want to get the result of

:15:05.:15:07.

the commission. That it should be reduced to a minimum is right, and I

:15:08.:15:12.

want to know if it's possible to eliminate it, or whether that will

:15:13.:15:15.

not do the job that will not do the job that's what the commission has

:15:16.:15:21.

to say. I drive these changes. All providers will provide data. Will I

:15:22.:15:29.

commit to ?1.25 billion? Yes I will. I have said it enough times in

:15:30.:15:35.

enough places to make it a very difficult government commitment to

:15:36.:15:38.

slip away from. It's over the course of the next five years and I'm happy

:15:39.:15:42.

to repeat that. I will take one more final intervention. I'm very

:15:43.:15:48.

grateful for his patience in allowing me to intervene again. I'm

:15:49.:15:57.

conscious that there is a risk that the shortfall in the first year is

:15:58.:16:02.

made up in 1920 something like that, it seems that the principle of

:16:03.:16:07.

frontloading to invest in change, it would be incredibly helpful if we

:16:08.:16:11.

could get the commitment to make good the shortfall in 16 or 17.

:16:12.:16:16.

Could he commit to doing that? There are things I can do, and things it's

:16:17.:16:21.

unwise to take a flyer on when standing at the dispatch box. I will

:16:22.:16:28.

try. We need to make sure the money is used sensibly. There are a lot of

:16:29.:16:33.

pressures on the system. I'm trying to be as bold as I can without being

:16:34.:16:37.

foolishly bold, and saying things for the sake of it. I understand the

:16:38.:16:42.

importance of the 1.25 billion, I've spoken about it a great deal and

:16:43.:16:46.

want to see it used. I'm not responsible entirely for the

:16:47.:16:49.

timescale but I understand your point, and I understand it will come

:16:50.:16:54.

up with the opposition debate that we will have next year. Maximum

:16:55.:16:58.

waiting times, I need to talk to the Secretary of State about that and

:16:59.:17:02.

see if we can go further and include that in a comprehensive letter to

:17:03.:17:05.

him. I hope that has been helpful for today. I'm delighted we had

:17:06.:17:10.

extra time to cover the ground. I'm pleased to take up the challenge to

:17:11.:17:14.

do some things that couldn't be done in the past few years, and I will do

:17:15.:17:18.

my best and live up to the expectations of the house as

:17:19.:17:20.

expressed by a number of members today. The question is that this

:17:21.:17:31.

house do now adjourn... The ayes have it. Order.

:17:32.:17:48.

That's the end of the day in the House of Commons. We will now go

:17:49.:17:54.

live to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded coverage of all

:17:55.:17:59.

today's business at the Lord's after the daily politics later tonight.

:18:00.:18:07.

The success of this review will be determined by whether that gap can

:18:08.:18:12.

be narrowed, and in that context I welcome the outcome of last night's

:18:13.:18:18.

debate in the other place, and the decision to authorise the extension

:18:19.:18:22.

of military operations against IS to include its heartland in East Syria.

:18:23.:18:27.

A decision which I believe was morally, legally and strategically

:18:28.:18:34.

the right one to take. My Lords, it's easy to say that it's a great

:18:35.:18:38.

honour to be joining

:18:39.:18:39.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS