27/01/2016 House of Commons


27/01/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 27/01/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

World to. The Cabinet Office questions before recess, the

:00:00.:00:17.

Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster stated in response to a question

:00:18.:00:23.

from my friends back, but the council had ?200 million in an

:00:24.:00:29.

unusable reserves and concluded the problems are reported facing our

:00:30.:00:33.

constituents were therefore, not real ones. I have now had it

:00:34.:00:39.

confirmed that those underused reserves are not remotely close to

:00:40.:00:43.

this and, even including already allocated reserves, the figure is

:00:44.:00:49.

nowhere near 200 million. The Minister for Local Government is now

:00:50.:00:54.

also confirmed that according to the Government's audit figures, Kirklees

:00:55.:00:56.

council had less than one fifth of this amount in unallocated financial

:00:57.:01:03.

reserves. Can I ask you what recourse do is for members were in

:01:04.:01:08.

minister has, even if unintentionally, misled this House

:01:09.:01:13.

on a matter that some seriously affect our constituents? Every

:01:14.:01:16.

member of this house must take responsibility for the veracity of

:01:17.:01:21.

what he or she says. If somebody thinks the house has been

:01:22.:01:27.

inadvertently misled, the member is responsible for collecting the

:01:28.:01:31.

record. The second point is, in terms of the recourse of the

:01:32.:01:36.

honourable lady, it lies in the order paper and the advice that is

:01:37.:01:42.

proffered by the table office. What I mean by that is persistence pays

:01:43.:01:50.

as if she thinks she has got a good point she should repeat it. She will

:01:51.:01:55.

have heard me make the observation that repetition is not a novel

:01:56.:02:00.

phenomena in the house and if she wants to keep making hotpot she can

:02:01.:02:07.

take advice from the College of Art and how to do so and most of them

:02:08.:02:13.

are very practised in the art. -- from the colleagues around her. The

:02:14.:02:20.

house will have heard the many tributes made to Holocaust memorial

:02:21.:02:27.

Day and the Memorial trust campaign. Does he not think it was

:02:28.:02:31.

inappropriate for the Prime Minister to use a language relating to the

:02:32.:02:36.

refugee crisis in Europe and talk about a bunch of migrants? Does he

:02:37.:02:41.

think it would be appropriate for the house to ask the Prime Minister

:02:42.:02:51.

to withdraw that language. Much more statesman-like language on such a

:02:52.:02:53.

complex and sensitive issue should be used. The right speaks with

:02:54.:03:01.

enormous experience in this House and I respect what she says and

:03:02.:03:06.

empathise with her observations about Holocaust memorial day which

:03:07.:03:10.

she and I on other occasions have marked at events together. I think

:03:11.:03:15.

what she said very seriously. I have to say to her and to the House that

:03:16.:03:23.

the observation in question was not disorderly or unparliamentary.

:03:24.:03:26.

Everyone must take responsibility for the remarks they make in this

:03:27.:03:30.

house and it is clear the right honourable lady would not have used

:03:31.:03:35.

that term. It is open to the Prime Minister to comment on it if he

:03:36.:03:41.

wishes but I am not entitled to try to oblige him to see anything on the

:03:42.:03:46.

matter. She has made her point very clearly and it is on the record and

:03:47.:03:51.

people will make their own assessments of this matter. Let's

:03:52.:04:04.

have a point of order. Business questions last week I asked a

:04:05.:04:08.

question relating to post study work visas, an issue of an ongoing

:04:09.:04:15.

enquiry. The Leader of the House responded by stating this was, an

:04:16.:04:20.

area not Jimmy Smith, Jim report. I have a copy here and on page 28 of

:04:21.:04:26.

the report it says the Scottish and UK Government should work together

:04:27.:04:29.

to explore the possibility of introducing schemes to allow

:04:30.:04:36.

students graduating from higher education institutes to remain in

:04:37.:04:41.

Scotland and contribute to economic activity for a defined period of

:04:42.:04:46.

time. Can you advise ways in which the Leader of the House can correct

:04:47.:04:49.

the record I know of a commitment that the Government will seriously

:04:50.:04:54.

consider this issue as recommended by the cross-party Smith, shouldn't?

:04:55.:05:00.

Notwithstanding the serious and statesman-like countenance of the

:05:01.:05:05.

honourable gentleman, it suffered from the quite material disadvantage

:05:06.:05:10.

of being many things, but not a point of order for each year. We can

:05:11.:05:17.

all read the Smith report, I confess I am not myself familiar with or

:05:18.:05:23.

have an instant recall of page 24 and the honourable gentleman has the

:05:24.:05:27.

advantage on media. When he asks what opportunities there is for him

:05:28.:05:33.

to hold the Leader of the House to account, the short answer is to

:05:34.:05:36.

model at business questions I am sure the honourable gentleman will

:05:37.:05:41.

be in his place and if he is I will see him. Part of order. Government

:05:42.:05:50.

ministers are both in this house and in Westminster Hall have made a

:05:51.:05:52.

number of statements and claims about the steel industry in

:05:53.:05:57.

particular the issue of procurement and measures being taken by the

:05:58.:06:02.

Government. It was extraordinary to get a written answer from the

:06:03.:06:05.

Ministry of Defence that said they do not hold a record of steel

:06:06.:06:11.

procurement either in quantity or country of origin. In light of that

:06:12.:06:15.

how you think I might be able to gain greater clarity on whether the

:06:16.:06:20.

Government's claims of procurement in the steel industry are actually

:06:21.:06:21.

the case? As I believe the honourable member

:06:22.:06:40.

is away, his answer lies in for the questions and the beat. This is

:06:41.:06:45.

ample opportunity to seek adjournment debates. I do not mean

:06:46.:06:51.

to be discourteous, but I think, in truth, which is in evidence from his

:06:52.:07:01.

grin, he was more important in making his point to me, rather than

:07:02.:07:08.

anything I had to say about it. With regard to my honourable friend 's

:07:09.:07:17.

question. The honourable gentleman was referred to by his first name. I

:07:18.:07:26.

do not believe that is the case. He should not be referred to by his

:07:27.:07:33.

first name, but by his constituency. I think the Prime Minister did this

:07:34.:07:38.

to make sure he would get on the news coverage in London at the time.

:07:39.:07:46.

I believe the Prime Minister is being disrespectful to those and to

:07:47.:07:51.

the procedures in seeking electoral advantage for the Conservative

:07:52.:07:57.

Party. Would you confirm that and if so, how could we upgrade the Prime

:07:58.:07:59.

Minister for his discourteous behaviour. He has rather magnify the

:08:00.:08:07.

issue. I do not disrespect them for that. I would see, first, yes of

:08:08.:08:16.

course, members should be referred to by their constituencies, not by

:08:17.:08:20.

the names, and secondly, I think it was almost certainly an oversight.

:08:21.:08:27.

Even the Prime Minister, who is immensely experienced at the

:08:28.:08:36.

dispatch box, can in the heat of the moment be responsible for an

:08:37.:08:40.

oversight. I do not think it was anything more than that. Just as I

:08:41.:08:47.

momentarily forgot to call Mr Vickers to ask his question. We are

:08:48.:08:54.

all fallible. I suspect even the honourable gentleman may sometimes

:08:55.:08:54.

be. Know that the appetite for points of

:08:55.:09:24.

order has been seated, we know who come to the Ten-Minute Rule motion.

:09:25.:09:48.

The first measure says the voluntary removal from the register of driving

:09:49.:09:56.

instructors should be initiated. This is when the registration has

:09:57.:10:01.

lapsed between one in four years. To qualify to become a driving

:10:02.:10:06.

inspector, one has to pass through the driving examinations, which test

:10:07.:10:13.

both of driving ability, the instructional skill and their

:10:14.:10:17.

medical fitness. The total cost of taking all the required tests is

:10:18.:10:27.

approximately ?750. Driving instructors name is added to the

:10:28.:10:34.

register and remains on it for four years. Once Pearson is on the

:10:35.:10:38.

register, they are required to take a standard up straight with them for

:10:39.:10:44.

years to make sure they are still instructing to an approved standard.

:10:45.:10:48.

Under current legislation, the only way a person can be removed is of

:10:49.:10:55.

the registration runs out or they are removed from the register for

:10:56.:11:04.

conduct, Colin competence or disciplinary reasons. This would

:11:05.:11:12.

allow the register for people to be removed from it for the likes of

:11:13.:11:19.

illness, ill or for example keeling for an elderly relative. These three

:11:20.:11:25.

examples have been brought to my attention. The first is one who was

:11:26.:11:30.

keeling for his terminally ill parent and could not attend his

:11:31.:11:34.

standards check. He had to be removed from the register for

:11:35.:11:40.

disciplinary reasons. To return to the register, he would have to

:11:41.:11:45.

requalify the other 3-part qualification route and his

:11:46.:11:49.

disciplinary record would be taken into consideration. The second

:11:50.:12:00.

example is a female who was unable to renew her registration because

:12:01.:12:03.

she had taken a career break to raise two young children. She would

:12:04.:12:09.

then have had to undergo this 3-part prequalification process. She would

:12:10.:12:18.

have preferred to leave the register voluntarily and return at a later

:12:19.:12:26.

date. The third and final example is one who allowed his registration to

:12:27.:12:30.

lapse due to a heart attack. At the end of the 12 month period in which

:12:31.:12:35.

he could reregister without having to requalify, he was still on

:12:36.:12:38.

medication and did not feel able enough to resume construction. The

:12:39.:12:45.

did allow him a two-month period of grace. But he felt this place them

:12:46.:12:53.

undue stress. He thought it may impact on 's recovery. Currently,

:12:54.:12:57.

when they have been off the register for a year that can reapply and be

:12:58.:13:02.

added back onto the register subject to conduct an medical fitness

:13:03.:13:06.

requirements. However, if it lapses more than a year, they would to the

:13:07.:13:14.

three qualification exams. The problems caused by the current

:13:15.:13:19.

legislation have been brought to our attention by a constituent who runs

:13:20.:13:25.

a driving school. They have 200 drivers. There reasons for

:13:26.:13:37.

contacting me were as follows, the industry is losing instructors due

:13:38.:13:41.

to many factors. This process of the qualifying can be a long time, which

:13:42.:13:47.

means there is a real shortage of driving instructors. His company as

:13:48.:13:56.

the waiting list of some 68 weeks for pupils to learn to drive. This

:13:57.:14:04.

is stopping many young adults. This is a common-sense issue. He has

:14:05.:14:10.

spoken to many drivers who are meeting the same issues. As a role

:14:11.:14:16.

of the driving instructor is not a physical one, many former driving

:14:17.:14:20.

instructors are trying to get back into the industry by the recall of

:14:21.:14:24.

buying process is lengthy and they have thus decided not to do so. Many

:14:25.:14:31.

have many -- much to give to the industry through the experience and

:14:32.:14:41.

skill. The difference is within the 12 month situation. To help

:14:42.:14:51.

alleviate the problem, we need the process to be streamlined. If

:14:52.:14:55.

possible, the 12 month period should be extended. The cost of the

:14:56.:15:03.

pre-qualifying exams, are both seen as reasons for people failing to

:15:04.:15:10.

return to the profession after a break. There are some 43,000

:15:11.:15:16.

registered driving instructors and just 25 on average just want to

:15:17.:15:20.

return to the industry of them each year. We think the qualifying time

:15:21.:15:35.

would be reduced from 36 weeks to six weeks and avoid the cost of

:15:36.:15:40.

undergoing the 3-part qualification once again. The standards check

:15:41.:15:47.

would be the same as one which the practising driving instructors

:15:48.:15:57.

already take. A person applying to re-enter the industry through this

:15:58.:16:04.

route with pass a standards check. If the field that he claims they

:16:05.:16:08.

would have to repeat the 3-part qualification process, thus

:16:09.:16:10.

maintaining the high standards within the industry. This would not

:16:11.:16:17.

be available to people who had been the register for disciplinary

:16:18.:16:25.

reasons. Many of those working in the industry are in small businesses

:16:26.:16:38.

or self-employed. The changes are outlined in this bill and would

:16:39.:16:45.

allow the ADIs two re-enter the industry more quickly. This would be

:16:46.:16:49.

of benefit both to the driving instructors and to the industry and

:16:50.:16:59.

to the public. The would-be up to the same standard as the colleagues.

:17:00.:17:10.

The geographical limits of the bill would be for Great Britain,

:17:11.:17:14.

excluding Northern Ireland. It would allow instructors to come off the

:17:15.:17:21.

register for a period of time for Hill or family reasons and this

:17:22.:17:24.

would be a cost-effective way for them to return to the profession

:17:25.:17:29.

without compromising instruction standards. I commend this to the

:17:30.:17:50.

house. As many as would see aye? The ayes have it. Who would bring in the

:17:51.:17:52.

bill? Driving and structures registration

:17:53.:18:40.

bill. Second reading? February the 5th. We come to the mean business,

:18:41.:18:48.

opposition the 17th a lot today. In first, to the motion of reduction in

:18:49.:18:58.

housing benefit. Just before I call the rate honourable gentleman, it

:18:59.:19:05.

may be of interest to the house and useful to the front benches to know

:19:06.:19:12.

that no fewer than 19 members are seeking to catch my eye from the

:19:13.:19:18.

backbenches. Disabling upon the time limit, I shall have to take into

:19:19.:19:21.

account the length of contributions from the front bench, the front

:19:22.:19:29.

bench being ever consider well I am sure wish that the contributions are

:19:30.:19:33.

tailored to allow for the views of the backbenches to be here. Thank

:19:34.:19:42.

you, Mr Speaker. We have called Vista beta give voice to hundreds of

:19:43.:19:48.

thousands of vulnerable people whose houses have been put at risk by the

:19:49.:19:54.

government. It is very encouraging to know that 19 members on both

:19:55.:20:00.

sides of the house wish to express their concerns and make a

:20:01.:20:05.

contribution to this debate. We want to expose this decision to challenge

:20:06.:20:10.

and to expose it to compassion and to clear. We want to expose it to

:20:11.:20:20.

common-sense. In the spending review, the Chancellor announced,

:20:21.:20:23.

and I quote, housing benefit and the social sector will be capped. With

:20:24.:20:30.

one short sweeping sentence, he put at risk almost all supported and

:20:31.:20:38.

shelter closing for the frail and elderly, the homeless, adults

:20:39.:20:42.

needing care, those suffering with dementia, those with mental illness

:20:43.:20:49.

or physical disability, veterans of those women fleeing domestic

:20:50.:20:53.

violence. Nearly half of all social housing schemes could be faced with

:20:54.:21:01.

closure. He has already closed caused the cancellation of building

:21:02.:21:05.

work on 2500 new houses for people of these groups.

:21:06.:21:15.

The Chancellor was not housing benefit cuts could affect the lives

:21:16.:21:21.

of hundreds of thousands of people who depend on this special housing,

:21:22.:21:26.

many of the most vulnerable people, with nowhere else to turn. The

:21:27.:21:32.

National Housing Federation says 156,000 homes, or at least that

:21:33.:21:39.

number of people, are set to close. One in four supportive housing

:21:40.:21:45.

providers are set to close a bruising, the farm. 19 out of 20 say

:21:46.:21:48.

they will close some of the they will close some of the

:21:49.:21:53.

supported accommodation. Since the spending review I have been asking

:21:54.:21:56.

ministers for evidence about this decision. I have asked the minister

:21:57.:22:03.

how many elderly people will be affected by this cut and he has told

:22:04.:22:09.

me the Government does not know. How many women are fleeing domestic

:22:10.:22:13.

violence? Don't know. How many people with mental health problems?.

:22:14.:22:18.

No. Young people leaving care. Don't know. The Government do not know how

:22:19.:22:23.

many people in supportive housing receive the benefit they plan to

:22:24.:22:28.

cut. But he has told me they have commissioned and evidence review

:22:29.:22:33.

that was started in December 2014 and should have been finished by

:22:34.:22:38.

last November but it was not. Why not? Well, and parliamentary

:22:39.:22:42.

questions the minister said it is bound to, the emerging complexity in

:22:43.:22:48.

the design and delivery of the review. Let me finish this point

:22:49.:22:58.

before I give way. The Minister did not know what he was doing when he

:22:59.:23:03.

commissioned the review and he must have been alone and less house and

:23:04.:23:07.

the country not to know there was a general election in May last year.

:23:08.:23:13.

He says it will be ready later this year. So he doesn't even know when

:23:14.:23:21.

he will know what at the moment he does not know. What a shambles. What

:23:22.:23:28.

a serious dereliction of duty for a Government that should be making

:23:29.:23:32.

policy on evidence, especially when it affects the lives of so many

:23:33.:23:40.

vulnerable people. I give way. Does he agree that one helpful when the

:23:41.:23:43.

Minister could do during this debate is to make clear that the cap

:23:44.:23:50.

applies to housing benefit and not to the service charge that is

:23:51.:23:54.

applied to so many in supported accommodation? I don't often

:23:55.:23:59.

disagree with my honourable friend what I do not agree with that. What

:24:00.:24:05.

is clear, as in other motion, is the Government must act immediately,

:24:06.:24:10.

confirmed they will exempt supported housing from these housing benefit

:24:11.:24:14.

cuts and then work with the housing providers to make sure this sort of

:24:15.:24:19.

housing can be developed for the future and secure in the future. I

:24:20.:24:24.

hope my honourable friend will accept that argument. The suggestion

:24:25.:24:32.

that the Government doesn't know what is that not also a suggestion

:24:33.:24:35.

that they don't care about the people they are directly affecting.

:24:36.:24:40.

It was estimated that investment in supported housing benefits are still

:24:41.:24:49.

around ?640 million a year. I will not likely on that question later on

:24:50.:24:52.

and I think people can make their own judgments. A devastating

:24:53.:25:07.

decision made with no consultation, low impact assessment, no evidence.

:25:08.:25:14.

My honourable friend is right, this is not a tussle between two front

:25:15.:25:18.

benches, this concerns each and every member of this house. Every MP

:25:19.:25:25.

in this country has in their constituency hundreds of residents

:25:26.:25:30.

in supported housing or sheltered housing, many of whom can't pay the

:25:31.:25:35.

rent and service charges for themselves and who totally dependent

:25:36.:25:38.

on housing benefit to help cover the costs. I am very grateful to my

:25:39.:25:46.

honourable friend for giving way. Isn't the real unfairness here many

:25:47.:25:50.

of those constituents of all of us who are in supported housing, for

:25:51.:25:56.

them, supported housing is actually a very expensive but necessary

:25:57.:26:02.

choice, and without the additional support through the housing benefit

:26:03.:26:06.

system they would not be able to afford that form of accommodation

:26:07.:26:09.

that is so vital to the everyday needs. My honourable friend, in

:26:10.:26:16.

characteristic way, puts in a couple of sentences the main point I am

:26:17.:26:25.

making in my speech. You rightly said that all of us will have

:26:26.:26:31.

constituents in sheltered housing. The well-known we all care about

:26:32.:26:37.

endless house, irrespective of party, about our constituents. Can I

:26:38.:26:42.

ask him to disassociate themselves made by his honourable friend that

:26:43.:26:45.

this side of the house don't care because we do. In a way it is down

:26:46.:26:53.

to the honourable gentleman and his front bench colleagues to

:26:54.:26:57.

demonstrate that case to the people watching this debate and certainly

:26:58.:27:01.

to those people who's a very homes and lives are put at risk. I make

:27:02.:27:09.

the point that every member of this house, and our constituencies, we

:27:10.:27:14.

have people threatened by this crude housing benefit cut that the

:27:15.:27:21.

Chancellor has announced. In the Housing Minister's constituency

:27:22.:27:27.

alone in Great Yarmouth, the 258 people in supported housing. On top

:27:28.:27:32.

of that there are at least 139 people in sheltered housing. The

:27:33.:27:38.

numbers are greater in South Swindon and for Tunbridge Wells. What do we

:27:39.:27:42.

say to these residents and their families? What do we say to the

:27:43.:27:48.

charities, housing associations, churches and other groups who

:27:49.:27:52.

provide the special housing and who are so concerned? Idea can wait one

:27:53.:27:58.

more time. Surely he's got to concede this is not the back of a

:27:59.:28:01.

backpacker policy but this Government is doing the sensible

:28:02.:28:11.

thing and collecting the data into a proper exercise on assisted housing

:28:12.:28:16.

with an impact assessment and also put aside almost ?500 million for

:28:17.:28:21.

housing payments and the changes will not come into effect until

:28:22.:28:26.

April 20 18. Surely that is a sensible policy? We have not seen

:28:27.:28:33.

information evidence and quite honestly, what about the information

:28:34.:28:37.

or evidence, why on earth is the Chancellor has made this decision in

:28:38.:28:42.

the spending review before Christmas, pre-empting exactly what

:28:43.:28:45.

good policy and decision-making should be based on? On the basis

:28:46.:28:50.

that he has not seen evidence, why has he called the debate at this

:28:51.:28:56.

point in time? I have called this debate with my honourable friend to

:28:57.:29:00.

give voice to the concerns that are widespread, to try and pick the

:29:01.:29:03.

Government think again and to say that it must exempt and I will come

:29:04.:29:11.

onto it in a moment, why this is an urgent and immediate decision but

:29:12.:29:18.

ministers face. The Chancellor's decision, by way of explanation

:29:19.:29:22.

about why this is going to work in this way, caps the housing benefit

:29:23.:29:28.

for social tenants at the new rate. The same level as private rented

:29:29.:29:33.

tenants currently receive what the local housing allowance. For most

:29:34.:29:38.

housing association homes this will not cause tenants any immediate

:29:39.:29:44.

concerns as the Reds are lower. Specialist housing services and

:29:45.:29:50.

schemes, which provide essential care and support, have higher

:29:51.:29:54.

housing costs, with the higher rates and service charges often covered by

:29:55.:29:58.

housing benefit. The Government zero best from their own report in 2011.

:29:59.:30:05.

It listed the main reasons and I quote, providing 24 hour housing

:30:06.:30:11.

management cover, more housing related support, more frequent

:30:12.:30:16.

repairs or refurbishment, more frequent mediating between tenants

:30:17.:30:20.

and providing CCTV and security services. This is why rents in these

:30:21.:30:28.

types of accommodation do not mirror the rates in general private rented

:30:29.:30:32.

accommodation in the local area. But this is the level of the

:30:33.:30:38.

Chancellor's at and cap. I will give way. He will know that in Nottingham

:30:39.:30:49.

in the housing charity Framework have been appalled at the potential

:30:50.:30:54.

impact this change will have on their supported accommodation for

:30:55.:30:57.

some of the most vulnerable people in my constituency. There are

:30:58.:31:03.

hundreds of spaces that they say will have to close by 2018 if this

:31:04.:31:09.

change goes ahead. This is a very real problem facing some of the most

:31:10.:31:13.

deprived and vulnerable people in our country and I applaud the fact

:31:14.:31:17.

she has called this position in the debate today. I thank my honourable

:31:18.:31:24.

friend and applaud his effort to talk to those providers in his

:31:25.:31:27.

constituency and safety fears that Framework have expressed are widely

:31:28.:31:33.

held amongst providers who offer this type of housing and support. I

:31:34.:31:38.

don't know what the figures he has got to are, but Almost Like six

:31:39.:31:47.

figures in Birmingham that expose the shortfall. The average rent in a

:31:48.:31:52.

homeless hostel is about ?180 per week. The local housing allowance

:31:53.:31:57.

rate in Birmingham is half of that at ?98.87. The local housing

:31:58.:32:10.

allowance rate for a room in a shared house is just ?57.30 a week,

:32:11.:32:17.

a shortfall of over ?120 per week their tenants. This supported

:32:18.:32:24.

housing is not just an emergency bed or a roof over their head, it helps

:32:25.:32:29.

people get their lives back together. Last year, 1500, two out

:32:30.:32:36.

of every five of the people at Saint Mungo 's house in the hostels, moved

:32:37.:32:41.

on from supported housing into their own accommodation. Saint Vincent's

:32:42.:32:47.

the Manchester -based housing charity, and 15 of the young

:32:48.:32:51.

residents don't on to university, one to Oxford. For thousands of

:32:52.:32:58.

autism, learning disabilities, autism, learning disabilities,

:32:59.:33:03.

dementia, mental illness, living as independently as possible in

:33:04.:33:06.

supported housing, there is no alternative. Other than hospital or

:33:07.:33:14.

residential care. Much more institutionalised what the

:33:15.:33:16.

residents, much more expensive for the taxpayer. This policy risks

:33:17.:33:23.

turning back the clock on people's the lives and standard of care by 40

:33:24.:33:34.

years. She has illustrated some people for whom the alternative may

:33:35.:33:37.

be much more expensive and less adequate care but there are other

:33:38.:33:42.

people such as the woman fleeing domestic violence with their

:33:43.:33:47.

children who come to a very good centre of accommodation in my

:33:48.:33:50.

constituency who will literally have no alternative at all to go to if

:33:51.:33:54.

these places are closed down by these measures. My honourable friend

:33:55.:33:59.

understands this better than perhaps any anyone else in this house. There

:34:00.:34:06.

is no alternative to the supported housing that many of the most

:34:07.:34:11.

vulnerable people need and how this housing at present have available

:34:12.:34:14.

and this is why we see in this debate that ministers must act

:34:15.:34:18.

immediately to exempt supported housing in full from these cuts and

:34:19.:34:24.

must undertake detailed consultation with providers on how such housing

:34:25.:34:29.

can be secured in the future. Before Christmas I revealed the skill of

:34:30.:34:33.

the problems facing those in specialist supported housing and

:34:34.:34:39.

since then dot-macro carry on to anyone. Since then we have had a

:34:40.:34:45.

series of half baked statements from the Government. First, this is

:34:46.:34:50.

unnecessary scare mongering. We are giving voice to the warnings and

:34:51.:34:54.

evidence of those who have the facts and will have to manage the

:34:55.:35:00.

consequences. Organisations the British public trust and emotional

:35:01.:35:08.

respect. Asian UK, Women's eight. Second, nothing will change until

:35:09.:35:15.

2018. Not true. The cut at the tap up like the new tenancies from April

:35:16.:35:22.

this year. The problem is immediate. My own local housing association

:35:23.:35:29.

tell me, it takes time to the house anyone. Let alone the most

:35:30.:35:35.

vulnerable people. Consultation on closures, they say, must begin

:35:36.:35:41.

within a matter of weeks. 01 will sign contracts for supported housing

:35:42.:35:47.

when don't know if the basic costs can be covered. New investment has

:35:48.:35:52.

already been stopped in its tracks. One in five providers have frozen

:35:53.:35:56.

new investment and new schemes according to the insight housing

:35:57.:36:06.

survey. Mencap up plans for much investment over the next five years

:36:07.:36:13.

and that has been scrapped. Fondling, I quote, additional

:36:14.:36:15.

discretionary housing payment funding will be made available to

:36:16.:36:21.

local authorities to protect the most vulnerable, including those in

:36:22.:36:24.

supported accommodation. Lot through. This fund is run by

:36:25.:36:32.

councils to deal with emergency applications for people already

:36:33.:36:38.

coping with the bedroom tax, benefits cap and cuts to housing

:36:39.:36:44.

allowance in the last Parliament. It is currently ?120 million a year and

:36:45.:36:52.

it is a short-term overstretched an lady. The Autumn Statement and

:36:53.:37:01.

policy costing document scores the cost of the Chancellor's housing

:37:02.:37:09.

benefit cut at ?515 million. I much of the Government proposing to top

:37:10.:37:14.

up discretionary housing payment is funded by? Lot 515 million, but ?70

:37:15.:37:22.

million. Housing organisations quite rightly dismiss this idea that the

:37:23.:37:27.

bond is the solution as nonsense and unworkable.

:37:28.:37:34.

I want to ask my honourable friend on that point. The insufficiency of

:37:35.:37:43.

discretionary housing payment is her bedroom tax have been shown time and

:37:44.:37:51.

time again. Does my right honourable friend agree how much it pays

:37:52.:37:54.

remains of vulnerable people when they know that the facing the sort

:37:55.:38:02.

of situation. They have to apply for the discretionary payment and may

:38:03.:38:07.

not get it. I think my honourable friend is talking about the court

:38:08.:38:13.

case, which run the government in breach of equality legislation. We

:38:14.:38:17.

always said the bedroom tax was unclear. It was punishing for those

:38:18.:38:21.

who could not make up the difference. I hope the High Court

:38:22.:38:25.

judgment today will lead ministers to think again about the bedroom tax

:38:26.:38:30.

as well as acting to stop this housing benefit bill damaging the

:38:31.:38:34.

prospect of so many people. The question for the housing minister

:38:35.:38:42.

and the Secretary of State is this, did they discuss this cart with

:38:43.:38:46.

Treasury ministers before the spending review? Will the department

:38:47.:38:59.

even consulted? Either way, did the spotted or stop it? Either way, we

:39:00.:39:04.

have the department which has been disregarded and overridden by the

:39:05.:39:10.

Chancellor. And we have the housing minister here today. He is trying to

:39:11.:39:15.

explain why housing schemes support more than 150,000 of the most

:39:16.:39:23.

vulnerable people in the country. The real culprit keeps his head down

:39:24.:39:30.

in the Treasury. Forced to backtrack on tax credits, when it stands on

:39:31.:39:34.

benefits like fire, the Chancellor Tom to benefits. Cuts across the

:39:35.:39:41.

board to make his fiscal sums add up. And with this, he has made the

:39:42.:39:47.

same error of judgment. It is not the politics of good policy or a

:39:48.:39:54.

basic humanity. He announces first and asks questions later and he is

:39:55.:39:59.

feeling very vulnerable people and the taxpayer, as well. This is a big

:40:00.:40:02.

test for the Conservative government. The Prime Minister said

:40:03.:40:10.

just before the election, I do not want to leave anyone behind. The

:40:11.:40:15.

test of a good society is regular cast of the elderly, the Friel, the

:40:16.:40:20.

vulnerable, the purist in our society. Will the government

:40:21.:40:26.

confirmed today that they will exempt in fool from this crude

:40:27.:40:35.

sweeping housing benefit cut, those in supported and sheltered housing?

:40:36.:40:42.

And will rework those who provide the hosting to make sure it is

:40:43.:40:47.

secure for the future? I move this motion before the house today. The

:40:48.:40:54.

only decision to take from ministers is a decision to exempt, a decision

:40:55.:41:07.

which would be based on compression and clear. The question is is on the

:41:08.:41:13.

order paper. I: the minister. Thank you Mr Speaker. I stand before you

:41:14.:41:21.

grateful for the subject chosen by the opposition for today's debate.

:41:22.:41:25.

We are always on the side of the hose happy to discuss welfare reform

:41:26.:41:31.

because it is at the heart of the government agenda and we make no

:41:32.:41:35.

apology for our commitment on it to the people of Britain. We need to

:41:36.:41:40.

balance the books and introduced the welfare system which is free to

:41:41.:41:46.

taxpayers. We are having a job is always preferable to having a life

:41:47.:41:51.

on benefits. We have to be remained as of the honourable gentleman is in

:41:52.:41:56.

a vacuum. We have to be remained where he has come from. In the

:41:57.:42:02.

theme, in 2010, we inherited that welfare system that field to be

:42:03.:42:08.

walked work, product taxpayers and was a millstone around the neck of

:42:09.:42:14.

the British economy. In 15 years of Labour government, welfare spending

:42:15.:42:19.

shot up by 60% in real terms. Many people spent the last decade trapped

:42:20.:42:27.

in out of work benefits. It was costing taxpayers an extra ?3000 a

:42:28.:42:33.

year each. Was my honourable friend surprised as I was when he does

:42:34.:42:37.

opposite number talking about good policy when the last ten years of

:42:38.:42:42.

the Labour government, housing benefit increased by 46% in real

:42:43.:42:47.

terms. How would that be to him and to be good policy? My honourable

:42:48.:42:54.

friend makes a very powerful point in a way that the last Labour

:42:55.:43:00.

government trapped people into that dependency, while we want to get

:43:01.:43:04.

them out of the poll giving a fair deal to the British taxpayer. My

:43:05.:43:10.

honourable friend likely that the contribution from the front bench as

:43:11.:43:22.

long flannel but short on facts. There will be long-term benefits

:43:23.:43:29.

from capping housing benefit. My honourable friend highlights some of

:43:30.:43:34.

the problems with the opposition viewpoint. The Field to look at the

:43:35.:43:42.

entire picture. I will give way. With the Minister confirm that the

:43:43.:43:48.

last Coalition Government spent ?130 billion more than the previous

:43:49.:43:53.

Labour government on welfare, reaching ?1 trillion for the first

:43:54.:43:58.

time under any government. That is a fact. I think the honourable

:43:59.:44:02.

gentleman has highlighted the terrible mess the Coalition

:44:03.:44:07.

Government inherited. It highlights that there was simply no fearless in

:44:08.:44:12.

a system like that for hard-working taxpayers. There was nothing

:44:13.:44:17.

progressive about trapping people in these lives. There will free a

:44:18.:44:22.

system that was left to others was broken. They have opposed every

:44:23.:44:27.

decision we have taken to fix it. We have never hear proposals for

:44:28.:44:31.

alternatives, which can only mean they oppose making any difficult

:44:32.:44:37.

decisions whatsoever. It is easy to make noise, it is very hard to do

:44:38.:44:40.

the right thing by the British people. We have seen one tactic time

:44:41.:44:49.

and time again, scaremongering and exploiting the fears of these

:44:50.:44:54.

people. This debate debate today is no exception. I will give way. If he

:44:55.:45:04.

wants a specific proposal to save housing benefit, why did you not

:45:05.:45:08.

look at the ?4.6 billion lost and rising from fraud and error in the

:45:09.:45:13.

administration of the housing benefit system. Why does he not get

:45:14.:45:18.

a better grip on? They could introduce better credit ratings.

:45:19.:45:22.

That is really saving should be made, not on the back of the most

:45:23.:45:27.

vulnerable people in our society. We are very clear about protecting the

:45:28.:45:31.

most vulnerable people in society. We need to crack down on fraud and.

:45:32.:45:37.

The last Labour government did absolutely nothing to do on that

:45:38.:45:43.

subject. Will he remained the house that the government is issuing 100

:45:44.:45:52.

billion to be allocated to local authorities for housing benefit. My

:45:53.:46:03.

honourable friend makes a good point. I would see it is slightly

:46:04.:46:09.

better, it is a which is coming better, it is a which is coming

:46:10.:46:17.

through. This highlights what the government as a clear focus on the

:46:18.:46:23.

issue. With the honourable friend she my surprise that until we had

:46:24.:46:29.

from the Shadow Chancellor, in listening for 25 minutes, we had not

:46:30.:46:33.

hear any suggestions that housing benefit was now an issue that any

:46:34.:46:38.

responsible Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to work out. We

:46:39.:46:42.

spend more on housing benefit in this country than we do on secondary

:46:43.:46:49.

education. 50% of what we spend on a defence budget. No responsible

:46:50.:46:53.

Chancellor would not be losing sleep about housing benefit and wanting to

:46:54.:46:58.

reform it. My honourable friend makes another very clear and

:46:59.:47:03.

important point. In the last six years, they have said nothing

:47:04.:47:08.

constructive about how to deal with the issues for the benefit of the

:47:09.:47:13.

taxpayer. This government has always been clear that the most vulnerable

:47:14.:47:18.

will be supported throughout welfare reform. We know he will free system

:47:19.:47:26.

is vital to supporting them. It is essential that all vulnerable people

:47:27.:47:29.

have a roof over the ahead and that is why we are determined to support

:47:30.:47:37.

the housing needs. We set aside ?500 million to create a safety net. The

:47:38.:47:45.

increase for abuse victims shows our commitment. ?400 million to deliver

:47:46.:47:54.

specialist affordable homes for the vulnerable, elderly or those with

:47:55.:48:00.

disabilities. We are funding up to 7500 specialist homes for older and

:48:01.:48:09.

vulnerable people. By 2020, we will be spending at least ?10 million a

:48:10.:48:15.

year extra over and above inflation, including a record ?11.4 billion a

:48:16.:48:20.

year on mental health, which we can do because of the stronger economy

:48:21.:48:24.

of which this Chancellor was brought to the country. He is giving out

:48:25.:48:32.

statistics about how much money that pretty government has put aside I

:48:33.:48:37.

will spend. I ask a straight question. The people sub currently

:48:38.:48:43.

unsupported housing, will be protected, they will not be toughed

:48:44.:48:49.

out and made homeless? As I have outlined, we will make sure that the

:48:50.:48:53.

most vulnerable people are protected. That is what the welfare

:48:54.:48:57.

system is all about. I will give way. When he talks about women's

:48:58.:49:08.

refuges, the manager of my local women's aid, she said that there is

:49:09.:49:14.

no doubt that the situation with housing benefit is already stretched

:49:15.:49:19.

to the maximum. The reality is we would be unable to find refuge

:49:20.:49:25.

provision of this went ahead. What does the Minister city to the

:49:26.:49:32.

manager, who provides the brilliant service for vulnerable women and

:49:33.:49:37.

children in a desperate situation. There's an extra ?40 million coming

:49:38.:49:44.

through for abuse services. The funding for supported housing as

:49:45.:49:48.

part of the wider settlement for councils. This includes ?5.3 billion

:49:49.:49:56.

for the better clear funds. This is to give deeper integration of

:49:57.:50:02.

housing and social care. This will help intervene in early action so

:50:03.:50:05.

that people can remain in their own houses for longer. The Minister

:50:06.:50:12.

talking about the better clear front, they are seeing the money

:50:13.:50:17.

will not reach the councils. New home bonuses are being taken back at

:50:18.:50:21.

the same time. They have already lost a lot of support for vulnerable

:50:22.:50:29.

people. Does he believe that the most vulnerable will be supported.

:50:30.:50:38.

That is simply not true. How older people will be protected. I would

:50:39.:50:45.

ask the Minister to not talk about discretionary housing payments,

:50:46.:50:52.

because they have been shown to be irrelevant. She is talking about the

:50:53.:50:56.

new money coming through. I would say with regard to supported homes,

:50:57.:51:02.

our affordable homes programme delivered 6% more homes than the

:51:03.:51:06.

other Labour's equivalent ever did. The supported housing sector is read

:51:07.:51:11.

in the lead. All the varied types of provision have one thing in common,

:51:12.:51:15.

they all provide dedicated support for some of the country's most

:51:16.:51:19.

vulnerable people. I will just make some progress.

:51:20.:51:26.

You many supported housing tenants have multiple physical and mental

:51:27.:51:32.

health problems, histories of offending and dependency issues.

:51:33.:51:38.

They may be elderly, socially isolated and these barriers to

:51:39.:51:42.

employment or living independently. But social housing can also reduce

:51:43.:51:46.

the cost to the wider public sector. I am sure this whole House would

:51:47.:51:51.

agree we want all our families, friends and constituents to live

:51:52.:51:56.

fulfilling lives and where possible in their own home. Some people need

:51:57.:52:02.

more help to do that. Supported housing gets them that assistance,

:52:03.:52:07.

it provides safety and stability, helps people get their lives in

:52:08.:52:12.

order, improves their health and well-being and gives them a platform

:52:13.:52:13.

to reach their full potential. We to reach their full potential. We

:52:14.:52:20.

have been out for ourselves seeing the different supported housing can

:52:21.:52:26.

make. Homeless hostels such as one in Plymouth I visited where they

:52:27.:52:30.

provide accommodation but also valuable opportunities for people in

:52:31.:52:34.

recovery. The same is true for specialised housing for older and

:52:35.:52:41.

disabled people. Or the residents to fight delighted with their homes but

:52:42.:52:46.

allow them to maintain independence. Their only regret was they had not

:52:47.:52:50.

moved in sooner. One of my colleagues also has seen how

:52:51.:53:00.

domestic abuse victims and programmes are helping women for the

:53:01.:53:03.

terrible abuse and violent relationships. Protecting the most

:53:04.:53:07.

vulnerable in society and supporting the housing needs is as much a

:53:08.:53:09.

priority as driving down the deficit priority as driving down the deficit

:53:10.:53:14.

and there need be no contradiction between these two games. Last week I

:53:15.:53:24.

visited in my constituency somewhere that provide a brilliant support for

:53:25.:53:27.

young people who would otherwise be homeless. They have expressed their

:53:28.:53:32.

grave concerns to me about the impact of the withdrawal of housing

:53:33.:53:38.

benefit for 16 to 21-year-olds, both in relation to the man for the

:53:39.:53:42.

services and also on young people who are ready to move on but won't

:53:43.:53:47.

be able to access housing benefit for the homes they need. How does

:53:48.:53:54.

the minister after that point? I think there was a intervention in

:53:55.:53:57.

that speech and I would say to the honourable lady she had experience

:53:58.:54:05.

something I experienced and the excellent work these organisations

:54:06.:54:08.

do and that is why it is important we help the lot of vulnerable in

:54:09.:54:13.

society. Is the difference between the two sides when talking about

:54:14.:54:19.

helping disabled people, that we have got 339,000 disabled people

:54:20.:54:25.

into work. In 2010 the party opposite provided of a situation

:54:26.:54:30.

where 70% on disability allowance had never been reassessed. My

:54:31.:54:36.

honourable friend highlights the difference between the two parties

:54:37.:54:38.

in making sure we get a deal that in making sure we get a deal that

:54:39.:54:41.

will direct the most vulnerable in society, gives an aspirational

:54:42.:54:46.

opportunities to move forward whilst getting a fair and proper deal for

:54:47.:54:53.

the hard-working taxpayer. And the Autumn Statement we announce social

:54:54.:54:56.

sector rents eligible for housing benefit will be limited to the level

:54:57.:55:01.

of the relevant local housing along is a great including shared

:55:02.:55:04.

accommodation rates for single clone is under 35 who do not have

:55:05.:55:08.

dependent children. This will be effective from April 2018. I know

:55:09.:55:16.

this has raised some concerns so let me be clear. We will always protect

:55:17.:55:22.

and make sure we ensure appropriate protection for the most vulnerable

:55:23.:55:26.

in supported housing and will work closely with the sector to be

:55:27.:55:29.

supported housing review to make sure we do that in exactly the right

:55:30.:55:37.

way. You rightly recognised the importance of supported and special

:55:38.:55:42.

housing and he has now indicated somehow the Government will protect

:55:43.:55:47.

people in the circumstances. Can he give any indication how that will be

:55:48.:55:52.

done and when these measures will be announced given up housing

:55:53.:55:55.

plan for potential changes in 2018 plan for potential changes in 2018

:55:56.:55:59.

that could lead to the of existing accommodation? The honourable

:56:00.:56:06.

gentleman has asked me to continue because I was going to come on to

:56:07.:56:12.

say that, as I'm sure he will appreciate, one of our underlying

:56:13.:56:15.

principles that are the bedrock of the policy formation. The honourable

:56:16.:56:21.

gentleman himself urges us to know the concerns of supported housing

:56:22.:56:25.

providers, so let me reassure all members that we have been listening

:56:26.:56:30.

and will continue to very carefully listen to the concerns of supported

:56:31.:56:35.

housing providers. My colleagues and myself have met with representatives

:56:36.:56:41.

of the National Housing Association and others to provide a supportive

:56:42.:56:45.

housing and listen carefully to all these representations and noted

:56:46.:56:48.

everything we have been told. We know the cost of supported housing

:56:49.:56:52.

provision are higher and general housing needs and providers rely on

:56:53.:57:00.

benefit funding for various aspects of this. I just wonder if she could

:57:01.:57:09.

point out how exactly he has been helping to protect the most

:57:10.:57:14.

vulnerable in the study for a specialist within's refugees that

:57:15.:57:17.

have already shut since the Conservatives came to power? Would

:57:18.:57:23.

you also like to join me later in meeting pretty much every CEO from

:57:24.:57:26.

all the woman's aid across the country to see what the thing? Am

:57:27.:57:30.

slightly surprised in the honourable ladys comments. She might want to

:57:31.:57:38.

talk to colleagues about the fact they made illegal in before and I

:57:39.:57:41.

will always be the chairman of the select committee 's intervention.

:57:42.:57:49.

Mike Department Art commission a fact-finding review of the sector

:57:50.:57:53.

that will report by the end of March and deepen our knowledge and

:57:54.:57:58.

understanding. The research has included extensive consultation with

:57:59.:58:03.

local authorities and all categories of supported housing providers,

:58:04.:58:07.

charities, housing associations or the commercial sector. This will

:58:08.:58:11.

provide us with a better picture of the supported housing accommodation

:58:12.:58:23.

sector. In the meantime, the 1% production will be deferred for 12

:58:24.:58:27.

months for supported accommodation. We will get the findings of this

:58:28.:58:28.

review in the spring and work with review in the spring and work with

:58:29.:58:33.

the sector to ensure essential services they deliver continue to be

:58:34.:58:38.

provided whilst protecting the taxpayer, making sure we make best

:58:39.:58:43.

use of the taxpayer's money and meet Government's fiscal commitments. We

:58:44.:58:48.

will look urgently at this to provide certainty for the sector. I

:58:49.:58:53.

thank the Minister for giving way and setting out the next steps. Can

:58:54.:58:59.

I put it politely to him though that he ought to have done this research

:59:00.:59:03.

before making the announcement in the first place, and can he now also

:59:04.:59:09.

help the house to give certainty to those housing providers, precisely

:59:10.:59:14.

implemented to offset the changes in implemented to offset the changes in

:59:15.:59:19.

housing benefit? I would say to the honourable gentleman that the mess

:59:20.:59:24.

the last Labour Government lest this country and financially means we

:59:25.:59:27.

must take difficult decisions and moved quickly to ensure taxpayers

:59:28.:59:31.

working with a Chancellor who sees working with a Chancellor who sees

:59:32.:59:35.

that as one of first and foremost duties. Can either the on the side

:59:36.:59:41.

of the house to warmly welcomed the announcement might right honourable

:59:42.:59:44.

friend made. It makes eminent sense to postpone this decision for one

:59:45.:59:49.

year until the basis of proper evidence and fact and this report is

:59:50.:59:56.

published in March. After that can't get them come to conclusions quickly

:59:57.:00:03.

on the matter. There is a lot of uncertainty in the sector and I urge

:00:04.:00:06.

him to rapidly come to conclusions after the review is finished? As my

:00:07.:00:10.

honourable friend rightly says we will be looking to work urgently

:00:11.:00:13.

with the sector when the review comes in to provide certainty. Out

:00:14.:00:23.

well, this partial step an indication of progress. It has taken

:00:24.:00:27.

Labour to post this debate in order to get ministers today 12 month

:00:28.:00:32.

backward step on the reduction in rents. But what about the cuts to

:00:33.:00:38.

housing benefit for supported and sheltered housing? A pause is not

:00:39.:00:43.

enough. It will not remove the alarm or anxiety of residence, nor the

:00:44.:00:48.

uncertainty for providers, it will not stop the scheme that have

:00:49.:00:54.

already been scrapped. Will he now announced that today? It's almost

:00:55.:00:57.

like the honourable gentleman forgets that while he was a minister

:00:58.:01:04.

that the Government of that time actually was the Government that

:01:05.:01:08.

removed the spare room subsidy was done under Labour into the private

:01:09.:01:12.

sector and created this unfairness and we now see. I will not stand

:01:13.:01:18.

here and taking lecture from this Government do the right thing to

:01:19.:01:21.

deliver the right outcomes and do what we have always said the other,

:01:22.:01:25.

to protect the most vulnerable in society, whilst Labour simply want

:01:26.:01:34.

to get a headline by scaremongering. Can equal hugely welcome the except

:01:35.:01:42.

German as a real meaningful announcement -- the exception. The

:01:43.:01:52.

money for victims of domestic violence is also hugely welcome,

:01:53.:01:55.

rather than the political point scoring from the opposition wheeled

:01:56.:02:04.

her today. My honourable friend highlights the difference between

:02:05.:02:08.

the two parties. Could he just confirm that, as examples of those

:02:09.:02:17.

who will benefit from this exception for the 1% of introduction during

:02:18.:02:20.

this year of consideration, will include those for being the most the

:02:21.:02:27.

abuse, housing for ex-offenders as well as supportive housing. Does he

:02:28.:02:31.

recognise how much this will be welcome but also paid tribute to

:02:32.:02:35.

those working with him on this, like the homeless Link in Mongo's? My

:02:36.:02:42.

honourable friend makes a very good boy and there are a huge number of

:02:43.:02:51.

people who provide vital services and that's my coordinator at the

:02:52.:02:55.

right protections are in place for the most vulnerable. This Government

:02:56.:02:58.

will always protect the most vulnerable and provide them with the

:02:59.:03:03.

support they need. We are a one nation Government and want everyone

:03:04.:03:06.

to have the opportunity to live happy and fulfilling lives. We want

:03:07.:03:11.

workers to earn a living wage and benefit from our strong economic

:03:12.:03:17.

growth. We want to support aspiration and boost productivity,

:03:18.:03:20.

reward work of welfare and allow people to keep more of the money

:03:21.:03:25.

they have earned. To keep moving from a low wage, high tax, high

:03:26.:03:30.

welfare economy to a high wage law will the country, and in this

:03:31.:03:37.

journey we will always support of vulnerable people and make sure they

:03:38.:03:41.

have a safe hall to live in. The whole House should be supporting

:03:42.:03:46.

this but instead the party opposite result of their favourite tactic of

:03:47.:03:50.

scaremongering for a political headline. It is time to stop that

:03:51.:03:56.

kind of poor politics and time to stop playing politics with the lives

:03:57.:04:00.

of vulnerable people. While we are helping working to provide the

:04:01.:04:04.

support they need and deserve and we will provide. Can I remind

:04:05.:04:11.

honourable members there will be speech limit of six minutes. I rise

:04:12.:04:21.

to support the motion in the name of the shadow front bench. The starting

:04:22.:04:26.

point regarding issues surrounding housing benefit was a decision made

:04:27.:04:31.

a couple of months ago at the legislative committee to freeze

:04:32.:04:35.

housing benefit for four years. Once again a decision has been taken by a

:04:36.:04:39.

delegated legislative committee that should have been made and debated in

:04:40.:04:45.

this House and I am glad to see the Independent newspaper has started to

:04:46.:04:49.

highlight that mechanism that the Government are doing and bringing

:04:50.:04:53.

its most damaging policies that affect the country. I represent a

:04:54.:05:01.

constituency with 40% of homes are in the social rented sector and 10%

:05:02.:05:06.

in the private rented sector, so any changes in housing benefit will have

:05:07.:05:11.

an impact. What has been more startling in the proposed changes

:05:12.:05:15.

from the Government if they have not produced any statistics on the

:05:16.:05:18.

number of housing benefit claimants who receive this benefit to pay for

:05:19.:05:25.

supported accommodation. They are proposing to cap the more benefit

:05:26.:05:30.

without low knowledge of how this affects those in sheltered

:05:31.:05:35.

accommodation. There are no statistics available for the number

:05:36.:05:40.

of residents in sheltered housing in receipt of full or partial housing

:05:41.:05:44.

benefit. The Government was asked for the thrill figures for the

:05:45.:05:51.

councils in England who participate in such a scheme and they answered

:05:52.:05:58.

they do not hold this information. This information should be available

:05:59.:06:04.

through the evidence review commission and the Department for

:06:05.:06:08.

Work Pensions. If the Government don't know the impact on why make

:06:09.:06:14.

the change? This Tory Government must halt their continued assault on

:06:15.:06:19.

housing benefit in order to ensure those who supported housing are not

:06:20.:06:24.

literally left out in the cold. Supportive housing provides a vital

:06:25.:06:27.

help to tens of thousands of people and plays a crucial role in securing

:06:28.:06:33.

a safe home and supports people to live independently. Supportive

:06:34.:06:37.

housing provides support for older people to maintain independent

:06:38.:06:42.

lives, provide emergency refuge for victims of domestic violence,

:06:43.:06:45.

helping stabilise their lives and to engage with other services they

:06:46.:06:50.

require. Supportive housing providers work with homeless people

:06:51.:06:59.

with complex needs and help them make the transition from life on the

:07:00.:07:02.

streets to a set of home, education, training and employment. In my

:07:03.:07:07.

constituency accurately what the charity whose support military

:07:08.:07:12.

veterans who are homeless, who have struggled to meet the challenge of

:07:13.:07:16.

civilian life, having served in our Armed Forces. Supportive housing

:07:17.:07:22.

assist people with mental health needs to support the life and live

:07:23.:07:26.

more independently, supports people with learning disabilities in the

:07:27.:07:31.

long supplies independent living and exercise more choice and control

:07:32.:07:35.

over their lives. The stark reality is any change to housing benefit and

:07:36.:07:39.

undermine the ability of such tenants to pay the rent, thereby

:07:40.:07:43.

putting their home at risk, threatening physical and mental

:07:44.:07:47.

well-being, as well as posing a threat to the financial stability

:07:48.:07:48.

housing associations. Single people under 35 will lose out

:07:49.:08:02.

as well. The Institute for Fiscal Studies concluded that the savings

:08:03.:08:07.

arising out of this measure would be short-term and small. The longer

:08:08.:08:15.

term impact is expected to be more significant of applied to all social

:08:16.:08:20.

tenants. Housing benefits would be cut by 1.1 billion. With 800,000

:08:21.:08:29.

households would lose an average of ?1300 a year. An insider housing

:08:30.:08:37.

article from the 1st of January this year said that 95% of supported

:08:38.:08:43.

housing applicants would be forced to close the schemes. They pointed

:08:44.:08:54.

to the potential financial impact based on a small-scale piece of

:08:55.:08:58.

research with its members in the weeks since the Autumn Statement.

:08:59.:09:03.

The proposed changes would have a devastating effect on future

:09:04.:09:06.

provision of refuge accommodation in Scotland. It is the ownership of the

:09:07.:09:12.

housing associations and local authorities. LHA Rates do not take

:09:13.:09:23.

on the extra cost from landlords and the associated costs. There are

:09:24.:09:33.

additional costs for refuge for women and children escaping domestic

:09:34.:09:37.

violence. There are added cost because of the cases nature of the

:09:38.:09:42.

situation. There are also variable lengths of stay and rapid turnover.

:09:43.:09:48.

That is a need for increased safety and security measures and the

:09:49.:09:51.

provision of furniture and equipment. The role/communal rooms

:09:52.:10:01.

for counselling and rooms for children. It was found that in all

:10:02.:10:08.

cases, the service charge costs are significantly higher than the

:10:09.:10:12.

current rate. One rural area, linked to a in the area, would result in an

:10:13.:10:20.

annual loss of ?5,800 for a two-bedroom refuge flat. In another

:10:21.:10:25.

urban area, the loss for a one-bedroom flat would be ?7,100.

:10:26.:10:33.

Easy immediate action an urban area, the loss is ?11,600 every year. In

:10:34.:10:40.

each case, the financial cost could be multiplied by the number of

:10:41.:10:45.

refuge spaces. Without the existing level of housing benefit to cover

:10:46.:10:50.

costs, many of these refuges would be forced to close. It is estimated

:10:51.:10:57.

that 62% of housing association residents require assistance to pay

:10:58.:11:03.

rent. You make an important point about protecting refuges. Is it not

:11:04.:11:09.

the case that in Scotland, housing is devolved the host Scottish Common

:11:10.:11:20.

protects general stock, funds new combination. We need to demolition

:11:21.:11:24.

of housing benefit to square the circle. I do agree with that. It is

:11:25.:11:32.

something that the Scottish National party are pursuing is the fool the

:11:33.:11:41.

evolving of housing benefit. The proposed change to the under 35 she

:11:42.:11:45.

opposing rate would see younger people struggling to pay their rent

:11:46.:11:49.

and seek policewomen under the age of 35 at much greater risk of being

:11:50.:11:58.

unable to pay. The single person aged under 35 relying on housing

:11:59.:12:03.

benefit would face a weekly shop feel of ?323 a year. This would

:12:04.:12:12.

translate into a rental loss of ?2.8 million per year for housing

:12:13.:12:18.

associations in Scotland. The housing association also comment

:12:19.:12:20.

that this is a conservative estimate, as of August of last year,

:12:21.:12:33.

they are already 67,400 claimants in Scotland to our under the age of 35.

:12:34.:12:40.

If women under the age of 35 are unable to access accommodation or

:12:41.:12:45.

move into the Roman tendency, it is effectively preventing them from

:12:46.:12:54.

leaving an abuse of partnership. In 2014-2015, the eatery and had the

:12:55.:12:59.

highest range of domestic abuse recorded by Polly Scotland. -- the

:13:00.:13:12.

herd. Police Scotland. Would he agree that issues of universal

:13:13.:13:25.

credit the split is compounding the action by not having a refuge to go

:13:26.:13:29.

to? That combines the original error. Discretionary housing

:13:30.:13:44.

payments bring up the gap of LHA rentals are suddenly not enough in

:13:45.:13:49.

these tough Financial Times. A discretionary housing payment should

:13:50.:13:53.

be made available to local authorities. This type of

:13:54.:13:58.

discretionary funding is far too insecure and uncertainty funding

:13:59.:14:07.

mechanism to be able to maintain specialised accommodation, such as

:14:08.:14:14.

refuge accommodation. This could also create a postcode lottery. It

:14:15.:14:19.

could also keep a great deal of stress and worry for applicants,

:14:20.:14:21.

wondering if they would be successful or not. It would split up

:14:22.:14:29.

particular barriers for women and children subject to domestic abuse.

:14:30.:14:37.

In 2013, there was a commitment to petite accommodation from any

:14:38.:14:42.

unintended consequences from welfare reform. In order to ensure such

:14:43.:14:47.

fatal accommodation as predicted, the United Kingdom government must

:14:48.:14:52.

commit to exempting refuges from the spending cuts. What will be included

:14:53.:15:03.

in this is still to be decided. The future of the claimant may be even

:15:04.:15:12.

stretch further, if there are growing numbers. The changes should

:15:13.:15:21.

not go ahead and we need the support for those who need it most to how a

:15:22.:15:29.

roof over their head. The prevents people who most need help from

:15:30.:15:33.

either seeking been able to get hold of it. It could see many at risk

:15:34.:15:37.

individuals not receiving the support they need from the

:15:38.:15:42.

residential tenants. The Scottish Federation of Housing Association

:15:43.:15:47.

says the uncertainty of the allocation of the grants mean that

:15:48.:15:56.

many will be unable to take up the accommodation that the need. This

:15:57.:16:02.

could lead to a vicious cycle of tenants not accessing the refuge

:16:03.:16:11.

property. I thank him for giving way it one more time. Is it not contrary

:16:12.:16:16.

to see that we will protect the most vulnerable by providing additional

:16:17.:16:29.

DHP? Schuler mini to make these people exempt from the proposals. I

:16:30.:16:39.

agree. It is interesting from the answer the minister gave to the

:16:40.:16:44.

Labour front that was no mention of the additional costs applying to the

:16:45.:16:48.

health service or other social services. There could be a higher

:16:49.:16:58.

cost in future. These proposed cuts come in the context of additional

:16:59.:17:03.

conservative restrictions to housing benefit to some of the most

:17:04.:17:08.

disadvantaged people in society. The Chancellor announced the removal of

:17:09.:17:13.

entitlement of housing benefit from universal credit for young people

:17:14.:17:20.

aged 18-21 years old, with the odd exception. The rationale was to

:17:21.:17:24.

ensure that young people on the benefits system face the same

:17:25.:17:29.

situation as young people who work and may not be able to afford their

:17:30.:17:35.

own home. The measures set to receive ?40 million by the next

:17:36.:17:42.

decade. Certain young people will be exempt, including vulnerable young

:17:43.:17:45.

people, those who may not be able to return home to live with parents and

:17:46.:17:51.

those who have been in work for six months prior to making a claim.

:17:52.:17:58.

Organisation such as shelter and centrepoint said this would have a

:17:59.:18:06.

huge impact on 18-21 -year-olds. The are actively lobbying against the

:18:07.:18:10.

removal is what they describe as an essential safety net which can offer

:18:11.:18:15.

a lifeline to young people. It is only the full power of social

:18:16.:18:21.

security that we can fully protect individuals from future housing

:18:22.:18:26.

benefit cuts. In Scotland, the Smith commission recommended the polls

:18:27.:18:30.

over discretionary housing payment should be left to the Scottish

:18:31.:18:37.

Parliament. Legislation has changed so DHP that can be paid in

:18:38.:18:44.

exceptional circumstances. The commission also recommended that the

:18:45.:18:48.

Scottish Parliament had the power to VB housing costs with regard to

:18:49.:18:53.

universal credit. It would give Scottish ministers powers to the ADB

:18:54.:19:02.

amount of universal credit. This would be subject to discussion with

:19:03.:19:05.

the Secretary of State with regard to practicality. This is needed to

:19:06.:19:13.

protect people against the impact of bedroom tax. I am proud to represent

:19:14.:19:23.

a constituency rich in the study of helping and championing their less

:19:24.:19:30.

fortunate. I oppose those guilty of exploitation. We recently

:19:31.:19:45.

commemorated the centenary of a great local social justice seeker.

:19:46.:19:53.

It might have been one century ago, but we have come full circle, as

:19:54.:19:59.

exploitation is one of the most basic human needs, shelter and the

:20:00.:20:06.

history of the family is once more a key issue in this parliament. That

:20:07.:20:10.

is why I will be voting for this motion today. Thank you, Madam

:20:11.:20:17.

Deputy Speaker. I would put on record my support for the one-year

:20:18.:20:25.

moratorium. This demonstrates that the government is about listening

:20:26.:20:32.

and taking on board what is said from the key stake holders.

:20:33.:20:38.

Government is about matching policy principle and social equity with

:20:39.:20:42.

practical policy implementation. What we see from the Labour Party is

:20:43.:20:49.

the usual hysterical hand-waving, working with people in the housing

:20:50.:20:54.

sector to steal Monger and freight in the most vulnerable of tenants.

:20:55.:21:04.

But the question has to be, clear as the Labour Party policy on this?

:21:05.:21:11.

Previously coherence and the comprehensive costing? Where is the

:21:12.:21:15.

alternative? It is not clear. This is a party who voted against every

:21:16.:21:20.

single will fear of change we need in the last parliament. They allowed

:21:21.:21:27.

housing benefit to reach 140,000 for a single year. The saw a 46% rise in

:21:28.:21:34.

housing benefit. They consign millions of families to welfare

:21:35.:21:37.

dependency and director number of children in wreck house dashing

:21:38.:21:41.

workless house walls. Members opposite voted on the recent

:21:42.:21:51.

housing bill that would see higher earners in Brenda McCall

:21:52.:22:00.

associations paying more to support those in this housing. How can it be

:22:01.:22:04.

fairly working families give a direct payment effectively to other

:22:05.:22:07.

people in social housing that are not working often? That cannot be

:22:08.:22:13.

fair. We have to deal with the issue and welfare dependency. I will not

:22:14.:22:18.

give way. Why can that be fair? As my honourable friend for Solihull

:22:19.:22:23.

said, these are difficult decisions. In the short term, they would

:22:24.:22:27.

deliver to ?40 million in savings. The Institute for Fiscal Studies

:22:28.:22:30.

says that in long-term, 1.1 billion pounds. We have to do it, giving the

:22:31.:22:35.

fiscal inheritance that we have before us. Now the Government has a

:22:36.:22:42.

responsibility and a mandate from the people of this country to

:22:43.:22:46.

deliver on welfare reform. If honourable members... The member for

:22:47.:22:50.

Nottingham East is now not in his place, but if they really believed,

:22:51.:22:56.

after reading the focus group, that the Labour Party will be trusted on

:22:57.:22:59.

the economy and particularly welfare with the policies that they are

:23:00.:23:02.

pursuing... The right honourable member knows that this is the case.

:23:03.:23:05.

They are completely wrong and they have to understand that completely

:23:06.:23:09.

opposing everything the Government does on welfare reform in favour of

:23:10.:23:13.

more spending, more tax and more debt will never deliver them a

:23:14.:23:17.

majority Labour Government again. Can I just say to housing

:23:18.:23:24.

associations very gently, the 1% cut in rent will have a direct impact on

:23:25.:23:28.

all their tenants in general needs. We will see a 12% reduction in

:23:29.:23:31.

average rent by the end of this Parliament. We do spend ?13 billion

:23:32.:23:42.

per year for housing associations to discharge their duties to house

:23:43.:23:44.

people. They have to raise their game and meet the challenge. It is

:23:45.:23:52.

not often commented upon, but housing associations are not subject

:23:53.:23:55.

to the Freedom of Information Act. We need to see that they are as

:23:56.:24:00.

efficient as they can possibly be. They are very efficient when it

:24:01.:24:03.

comes to campaigning against the Government but not swordfish and on

:24:04.:24:08.

resource allocations and delivering front-line... I give way. On that

:24:09.:24:14.

very point, does he agree that in the last five years, we have

:24:15.:24:17.

actually seen large sectors in the public sector stepping up to the

:24:18.:24:22.

plate, delivering more for less, executing changes that do save the

:24:23.:24:25.

taxpayer money and help the public finances? This is something housing

:24:26.:24:28.

associations should be able to follow. I agree. We will see an

:24:29.:24:35.

impact assessment and we will see an evidence -based review across the

:24:36.:24:38.

whole of the assisted and supported housing regime. We do not know what

:24:39.:24:44.

the final decision will be at the end of this and it really is for

:24:45.:24:48.

local housing associations to stop complaining and work with planners,

:24:49.:24:53.

work with developers and other key partners in the National Health

:24:54.:24:56.

Service. I am sorry, I would love to, I have not got time. In order to

:24:57.:25:01.

deliver the projects that they want to deliver. I am not wholly

:25:02.:25:04.

supportive of the Government on this and I tell you why. There has to be

:25:05.:25:09.

a comprehensive and holistic approach to marrying the crisis, the

:25:10.:25:15.

demographic time bomb that we have of older people, of acute social

:25:16.:25:20.

care and Acute Hospital care. We have to reduce those numbers and we

:25:21.:25:25.

have to use the tax system. I want, I am afraid. The honourable ladies

:25:26.:25:30.

not taking the end but I have no time. We must use the tax system and

:25:31.:25:35.

the expertise we already have in order to deliver that. To deliver

:25:36.:25:43.

good adult social care and also care for women, for instance, who have

:25:44.:25:45.

been subject to domestic abuse. But as massive and we have that. I

:25:46.:25:54.

mentioned the discretionary housing payments earlier as well, which will

:25:55.:25:57.

assist directly the tenants. Incidentally, talking about the

:25:58.:26:01.

spare room subsidy, those were payments not always drawn down

:26:02.:26:05.

because of inefficiency in local authorities, often Labour Party

:26:06.:26:09.

once. I would say to the front bench, it is a fair point that the

:26:10.:26:14.

opposition spokesman makes. We need further clarity. It cannot be the

:26:15.:26:20.

will of the Government to make it more difficult for us to deliver

:26:21.:26:25.

more extra care facilities. We do not want to see non-viable projects

:26:26.:26:31.

going forward. That is why it is important that the Treasury, the

:26:32.:26:34.

Department for Work and Pensions and DDC LG work together to get round

:26:35.:26:40.

the table and try and work out how we can do this. But we have got a

:26:41.:26:48.

duty and responsibility to deal with the fiscal inheritance in terms of

:26:49.:26:52.

welfare spending being out of control. But we must balance that

:26:53.:26:57.

with practical, pragmatic solutions which deliver adult social care and

:26:58.:27:02.

helps the most vulnerable people in society, for whom we all care. We

:27:03.:27:09.

all care about them. Fairness and equity is important. But if we

:27:10.:27:15.

demanded tax revenue from our constituents, we must deliver value

:27:16.:27:18.

for money and that is why I will not support the Labour Party tonight and

:27:19.:27:23.

I will support the Government. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are here today

:27:24.:27:28.

for one of two reasons. Either the Government set out as a matter of

:27:29.:27:31.

deliberate Holocene to bring about the closure of special supported

:27:32.:27:36.

housing or they were not bothered whether these housing units closed.

:27:37.:27:42.

This is an unintended consequence of a wider policy about changes to

:27:43.:27:49.

housing benefit, which we got here to deal with today because he

:27:50.:27:51.

Government did not do a proper impact assessment at the beginning

:27:52.:27:55.

of the policy. We should have had that before we began the process,

:27:56.:27:59.

not when concerns have been raised, quite rightly, up and down the

:28:00.:28:04.

country about the potential impact. So I actually welcome what the

:28:05.:28:07.

Minister has said today, that a proper review will be carried out

:28:08.:28:10.

and the Government will not simply carry on with this policy and the

:28:11.:28:13.

potential consequences it can bring about. So, when we look at this, and

:28:14.:28:22.

members opposite have said that there has been political point

:28:23.:28:25.

scoring and scaremongering by those of us on the side and by the Housing

:28:26.:28:32.

Association movement in general. It is not true. When I get rung up by

:28:33.:28:37.

Tony Stacey, the respected Chief Executive of South Yorkshire Housing

:28:38.:28:39.

Association, widely respected people on both sides of the House, for the

:28:40.:28:44.

association itself and his personal commitment, he says the impact of

:28:45.:28:49.

these measures will be a ?2.8 million reduction in the income that

:28:50.:28:55.

association out of a ?20 million budget. That is a matter of major

:28:56.:29:01.

concern. That would lead to the closure of around 1000 places of

:29:02.:29:06.

supported housing and the Association, because of the

:29:07.:29:09.

financial impact, would have to start acting on those closures

:29:10.:29:12.

within the next few months, not wait for 2018. That is not

:29:13.:29:18.

scaremongering. That is financial reality for an association having to

:29:19.:29:21.

balance its books over that period of time. That is why we're here to

:29:22.:29:28.

beating the issue today. I have just one or two questions now. The

:29:29.:29:31.

Minister talked about a review by the end of March. That is a review,

:29:32.:29:39.

Wembley conclusion be reached so that there is only certainty for

:29:40.:29:41.

associations and others, including local councils, about the impact of

:29:42.:29:48.

these measures of the changed measures which hopefully the

:29:49.:29:52.

Government will bring in? And bringing about that review and

:29:53.:29:56.

coming to a conclusion, will the Government top not merely to the

:29:57.:30:01.

National Housing Act federation, but the Local Government Association as

:30:02.:30:03.

well because there are voluntary schemes involved also. All relevant

:30:04.:30:10.

parties should be consulted. Can he give an indication as to when

:30:11.:30:12.

conclusions will be breached and certainty can be brought about?

:30:13.:30:18.

Secondly, in terms of the changes for new tenants which urges are

:30:19.:30:23.

coming in April 2016, will those now be postponed? Or are we going to see

:30:24.:30:29.

new tenancies created in 2016 on the basis of the changes that are

:30:30.:30:31.

proposed at present before the review? I hope the Minister will

:30:32.:30:36.

indicate that no changes will come in and the full costs of supported

:30:37.:30:40.

housing will be covered through housing benefit for new tenancies

:30:41.:30:45.

from April 2016 until this review has concluded. And finally, I

:30:46.:30:52.

welcome what the Minister said about the rate increases for supported

:30:53.:30:58.

housing, that the 1% reduction will not go ahead next year we'll be

:30:59.:31:02.

viewed as being undertaken. Does that mean that the changes in the

:31:03.:31:09.

budget will not be implemented and D 1% reduction will not now happened?

:31:10.:31:18.

Or will read simply be frozen? There is quite a big difference for

:31:19.:31:23.

associations. Even the red changes without housing benefit changes have

:31:24.:31:26.

an impact on social housing. Can we have clarification on that? I

:31:27.:31:29.

welcome the direction the Government seems to be moving in, in a more

:31:30.:31:33.

realistic is Asian. Maybe the Executive committee will look at

:31:34.:31:39.

this as well. I hope the Minister will fully consult and take on the

:31:40.:31:41.

concerns that the Housing Association movement and local

:31:42.:31:44.

councils have. None of us want to see these units close. Thank you for

:31:45.:31:52.

calling me in on this debate. I put on record that I also welcome the

:31:53.:31:59.

announcement on the 1%. We spend more on family benefits in Britain

:32:00.:32:03.

than we do in Germany, France or Sweden and is no doubt that social

:32:04.:32:06.

housing is invaluable for hundreds of thousands of in this country who

:32:07.:32:11.

need help in getting accommodation. But it cannot be right to continue

:32:12.:32:14.

to subsidise people to live in houses that are bigger than they

:32:15.:32:18.

need whilst there are 375,000 families living in overcrowded

:32:19.:32:23.

conditions. Nor can it be right to subsidise people to live in houses

:32:24.:32:26.

that are out of reach or unaffordable for hard-working

:32:27.:32:31.

taxpayers. Page 97 of Labour's 2009 budget summarise the problem.

:32:32.:32:36.

Indications are that some claimants might be able to afford

:32:37.:32:39.

accommodation that is out of reach of working families on low incomes.

:32:40.:32:43.

Other more, costs of housing benefit have risen above inflation despite

:32:44.:32:50.

static caseloads. In fact, between 1999 in 2010, the cost of housing

:32:51.:32:54.

benefit rose by 46% in real terms, reaching 21 billion. Housing benefit

:32:55.:33:00.

was truly out-of-control, with the maximum housing benefit award

:33:01.:33:05.

reaching over ?100,000 per year. Even after the benefit cap, people

:33:06.:33:10.

can receive support up to meet of ?20,000 per year. What with the

:33:11.:33:14.

working family, paying tax, half 2am to enter a ?20,000 a year rent? 60,

:33:15.:33:29.

70, ?80,000 per year. Rents were markedly higher on average than a

:33:30.:33:32.

like-for-like property in the private sector. This is clearly

:33:33.:33:35.

unsustainable and helped fuel the something for nothing culture that

:33:36.:33:41.

provided under 13 years of Labour. 1.4 million people spent most of the

:33:42.:33:45.

previous decade trapped on out of work benefits while the number of

:33:46.:33:49.

households were not member has ever worked doubled under Labour. The

:33:50.:33:52.

announcements made in the Autumn Statement followed on from reforms

:33:53.:33:56.

in the last Parliament to better align the rules between social and

:33:57.:33:59.

private landlords, ensuring fairness between those receiving housing

:34:00.:34:03.

benefits and hard-working taxpayers who have to pay for it. Those who

:34:04.:34:09.

oppose making difficult decisions on welfare must say what they would

:34:10.:34:16.

cut... I will not give way. Those who oppose making difficult

:34:17.:34:18.

decisions on welfare must say what they would cut or what taxes we

:34:19.:34:24.

would put up to pay for it. Though it would seem for some of the

:34:25.:34:27.

current revision 's office at that Labour and their leaders have not

:34:28.:34:30.

learned their lessons of the past. Their plans to spend more, borrow

:34:31.:34:35.

more and taxed more and exactly what got us in the mess in the first

:34:36.:34:41.

place. As Labour's great recession showed, it is working people and

:34:42.:34:43.

their families who end up paying the price for that. When we came into

:34:44.:34:50.

Government in 2002, the Government was borrowing over 150 billion year.

:34:51.:34:56.

One in ?4 spent by the then Labour Government was borrowed.

:34:57.:35:01.

Unemployment increased by nearly 500000 and Britain suffer the

:35:02.:35:04.

deepest recession since the war and had the second bigger structural

:35:05.:35:09.

deficit of any major economy. We have cut the deficit in half and are

:35:10.:35:14.

working to cut the deficit again by 2020. It is a fundamental truth that

:35:15.:35:18.

without saying public finances, there is no economic security for

:35:19.:35:22.

working families and we cannot pay for hospitals, schools, people and

:35:23.:35:29.

housing we rely on. It is our long-term economic plan that will

:35:30.:35:33.

turn us into a high wage, low tax, low welfare and economy. The Labour

:35:34.:35:36.

Party are out of touch with hard-working people. They are out of

:35:37.:35:42.

touch and out of ideas on welfare. Based on this debate, they will be

:35:43.:35:48.

felt long time. -- and they will be for a long time.

:35:49.:35:56.

She was about the the house a fairly easy with to find out what we are

:35:57.:36:03.

talking about, it is about the homeless services and the unintended

:36:04.:36:07.

consequences of a cap on housing benefit. The potential catastrophic

:36:08.:36:15.

outcome for people in specialist housing, in homelessness

:36:16.:36:20.

arrangements, specialist schemes for dependent drinkers, for example the

:36:21.:36:24.

catastrophic outcome these changes will make to their rents, to their

:36:25.:36:30.

circumstances and indeed to the organisations that seek to house

:36:31.:36:34.

them and provide services for them, that is what this debate is about

:36:35.:36:37.

this afternoon and we have to concentrate on that. I must say I

:36:38.:36:42.

was remarkably disappointed by the fact free bluster from the Minister

:36:43.:36:46.

of this it about this particular issue. I suppose one can only

:36:47.:36:56.

forgive the fact free bluster on the basis that there was no impact

:36:57.:37:00.

assessment for these changes and therefore presumably if the Minister

:37:01.:37:03.

is coming here today not armed with an impact assessment he has not

:37:04.:37:06.

really got any facts to defend his side of the argument in the first

:37:07.:37:11.

place. Taiwan to do is provide little impact assessment of my own

:37:12.:37:16.

as far as this is concerned, I want to base that on an organisation

:37:17.:37:23.

based in my constituency that provide services for homeless

:37:24.:37:29.

people, for people with severe and injuring mental health problems,

:37:30.:37:35.

drinkers and people with alcohol problems, mental health substance

:37:36.:37:45.

misuse Robins, former offenders. The members opposite playing with their

:37:46.:37:47.

phones, they might put them to better use by putting it on this

:37:48.:37:53.

website. Any dispute about who cares in this debate, it is certainly the

:37:54.:37:57.

case that the Society of Saint James does care. It cares deeply about all

:37:58.:38:03.

these people they are trying to houses and help and they assessed

:38:04.:38:08.

either in housing or helping some 2500 people. They have looked that

:38:09.:38:14.

the impact of these changes on their various housing schemes across South

:38:15.:38:21.

Hampshire and their calculation is that the average reduction in rent

:38:22.:38:25.

will be 40% across the 300 odd people that are actually housed at

:38:26.:38:32.

the one time but that of course doesn't mean it does not roll onto

:38:33.:38:36.

the wider number of people in various schemes. They calculate that

:38:37.:38:47.

as a sum of ?1.03 million per year. That quite simply and

:38:48.:38:49.

straightforwardly means that all those schemes are under risk because

:38:50.:38:54.

the Society of Saint James cannot fund those properly over the next

:38:55.:39:00.

period. It has been said, of course that while the discussion of the

:39:01.:39:04.

housing payment scheme is coming to help in the longer term, but the

:39:05.:39:11.

discussion of the -- discretionary housing scheme covers temporary

:39:12.:39:13.

situations and cannot give long-term revenue security the organisations

:39:14.:39:17.

need to plan their future housing needs. Will he not agree with me

:39:18.:39:25.

that the discretionary housing fund is already barely covering the

:39:26.:39:29.

amount of people applying for it giving the impact of the bedroom tax

:39:30.:39:32.

and a further attempt to stretch that and it is already not going far

:39:33.:39:39.

enough. That was an important point, I was perhaps being a little kind to

:39:40.:39:42.

the housing discretionary fund inasmuch it is having so many things

:39:43.:39:49.

poured into it. The chances of the fund having a material impact on a

:39:50.:39:53.

limited basis in this field looks to be fairly low. Of course, the other

:39:54.:40:00.

question in terms of the Society of Saint James is what happens with new

:40:01.:40:05.

schemes that are developing in the future and they have recently

:40:06.:40:08.

received substantial capital donations to develop new property

:40:09.:40:11.

and extend their services. There is no chance those sort of schemes can

:40:12.:40:16.

now go ahead because there is no prospect of those schemes being

:40:17.:40:20.

funded properly once they have been built and indeed it would be deeply

:40:21.:40:26.

irresponsible for that society. I have got one experience already,

:40:27.:40:34.

Alina housing has stopped four extra schemes totalling 500 units because

:40:35.:40:39.

of the impact alone on those schemes, it is 2.3 million deficit.

:40:40.:40:47.

That underlines very powerfully the importance of understanding just how

:40:48.:40:53.

early it is that organisations such as the Society of Saint James and

:40:54.:40:56.

organisations in her constituency are having to take decisions about

:40:57.:41:01.

what they are doing in the future. In that context, a moratorium for a

:41:02.:41:05.

year will not make any difference to those particular decision because it

:41:06.:41:07.

is the question of long-term security of revenue that those

:41:08.:41:12.

schemes are concerned about. And it is indeed very likely and certainly

:41:13.:41:17.

not scaremongering that those schemes will disappear now, not in

:41:18.:41:23.

the future and the whole system will be poorer as a result. Perhaps the

:41:24.:41:29.

question in my mind boils down to this, as far as my question, my

:41:30.:41:34.

central question to the ministers concerned, if he has things he wants

:41:35.:41:39.

to do about putting this particular problem right, whether he thinks in

:41:40.:41:46.

retrospect that this was a problem not of his own making because he

:41:47.:41:50.

doesn't notice it arriving when he came from the Treasury and was only

:41:51.:41:54.

told when it was too late for him to do anything about it, whether indeed

:41:55.:41:57.

he did something about it in the first place and the Treasury ignored

:41:58.:42:01.

him, either way there is an issue that the Minister has two address

:42:02.:42:07.

right now as far as these questions are concerned. My question to the

:42:08.:42:12.

Minister is, if we could impact assessments into the context of the

:42:13.:42:17.

organisations at the heart of the process of clearing in this

:42:18.:42:19.

particular area and at the heart of the process, not only of caring for

:42:20.:42:23.

this area but actually saving the state large amounts of future public

:42:24.:42:29.

expenditure in terms of keeping such people they are caring for and

:42:30.:42:34.

assisting out of prisons and psychiatric institutions and

:42:35.:42:39.

emergency services by securing the accommodation in the community, what

:42:40.:42:46.

is the Minister going to do right now that specifically puts the

:42:47.:42:48.

problem right for the Society of Saint James in Southampton and if

:42:49.:42:53.

the minister does not have an answer for that, it seems to me he has a

:42:54.:42:58.

great deal of thinking to do about the wider issue as a whole. Those

:42:59.:43:04.

are the sort of organisations up and down the country, not local

:43:05.:43:09.

authority organisations, voluntary organisations that are involved in

:43:10.:43:14.

these issues, who now find themselves simply hold below the

:43:15.:43:19.

water line. Unless the Minister can come up urgently with either a patch

:43:20.:43:25.

or a new vote, I'm afraid that is what the reality of the situation

:43:26.:43:29.

will be over the next period and I urge the Minister to take action at

:43:30.:43:33.

the earliest possible opportunity to ensure that such important

:43:34.:43:37.

organisations, as the Society of Saint James, can continue the good

:43:38.:43:38.

work in future. I welcome the opportunity to talk

:43:39.:43:48.

about this important issue because I am concerned, especially by the

:43:49.:43:51.

shadow Housing Minister and members opposite that there is confusion

:43:52.:43:54.

between the difference between general needs housing and supported

:43:55.:43:58.

housing because currently there is no legislation going through that

:43:59.:44:01.

will cap housing benefit in supported housing. There is an

:44:02.:44:09.

evidence review being conducted and the last speaker talked about not

:44:10.:44:12.

having an impact assessment but that is exactly what is happening and it

:44:13.:44:18.

is nothing... Either members opposite do not understand the

:44:19.:44:21.

difference, they are scaremongering. I am a big supporter of supported

:44:22.:44:26.

housing because when I was a Cabinet member or housing in the new unitary

:44:27.:44:29.

authority, I had to live under the last Labour government and let me to

:44:30.:44:34.

you, funding supported housing then was difficult because of the

:44:35.:44:37.

year-on-year cuts to our supporting housing grant. We had supported

:44:38.:44:43.

housing were refunded sheltered housing blocks both in our own stock

:44:44.:44:47.

but also through housing associations and also through

:44:48.:44:51.

charities. We had to dip in and find the difference between those cuts

:44:52.:44:55.

and funding our sheltered housing services. The same for our learning

:44:56.:44:59.

disability clients, who were funded in supported housing houses because

:45:00.:45:05.

let's not pretend that the members opposite, when they were in

:45:06.:45:08.

government were not cutting the amount of money there too. I was

:45:09.:45:14.

also up until recently the trustee of a treasure take which really

:45:15.:45:19.

helps people who have hit rock bottom to alcohol and drug

:45:20.:45:28.

dependency -- treasurer. They are supported not just through rehab but

:45:29.:45:33.

also gaining independence and be able to sustain themselves on their

:45:34.:45:39.

own long-term and supported housing benefit has a huge impact. Housing

:45:40.:45:48.

benefit is being capped, supported housing, there is currently no

:45:49.:45:54.

change, it is under review. Members opposite need to be clear about

:45:55.:45:58.

that, I think the announcement that the housing minister made today that

:45:59.:46:06.

the 1% reduction in social events won't supply to housing for another

:46:07.:46:16.

year has to be welcomed. Let's look at the reasons of why we have to cap

:46:17.:46:19.

housing benefit, it is not just because of the economy, it is

:46:20.:46:24.

because of the impact it has had in constituencies such as mine. I have

:46:25.:46:27.

the town of New Haven in my constituency which is in the same

:46:28.:46:31.

LAK rate as Brighton and Hove, so it has a much higher than the rest of

:46:32.:46:40.

East Sussex. As a result, I know the Shadow Minister doesn't want to

:46:41.:46:43.

listen to this, it is artificially pushing up private rented rates for

:46:44.:46:48.

the ordinary person who is not on housing benefit. They cannot afford

:46:49.:46:53.

to stay in New Haven was the only people who can are those on general

:46:54.:46:58.

needs housing benefit and that has artificially increased the rental

:46:59.:47:02.

market. It has not helped young families in my constituency. The

:47:03.:47:06.

members opposite do not want to cap general needs housing benefit, then

:47:07.:47:11.

how will be tackled the welfare bill that they are so proud to say they

:47:12.:47:15.

would be able to manage so much better than the government? Is it

:47:16.:47:20.

through reducing money on the NHS? Is it by reducing money on schools?

:47:21.:47:25.

Is it by reducing money on the police service or the Armed Forces?

:47:26.:47:32.

They have to make a decision, by putting up taxes instead. They had

:47:33.:47:35.

to be honest with the British public in how they would manage this. Just

:47:36.:47:41.

to conclude because I know time is tight, I asked the housing minister

:47:42.:47:46.

because I am a passionate supporter of supported housing, in the year

:47:47.:47:49.

review that is taking place, if you would come to my constituency to New

:47:50.:47:54.

Haven where we heard just yesterday that money is secure for that

:47:55.:47:59.

housing placement where young people who have had a really rough start in

:48:00.:48:04.

life are being able to have a secure tenancy for a period of time, able

:48:05.:48:08.

to gains kills to get into the workforce, if you would come to meet

:48:09.:48:12.

with those young people and see the difference that supported housing is

:48:13.:48:17.

making for them. They are not under threat from the housing benefit cap

:48:18.:48:21.

because it is not relevant at the moment for supported housing and I

:48:22.:48:24.

will not be supporting members opposite, ER misleading and

:48:25.:48:30.

scaremongering the most vulnerable people in our society and I will not

:48:31.:48:32.

support the motion. The confusion and a lack of clarity

:48:33.:48:41.

around the issue of supported accommodation will have a

:48:42.:48:45.

devastating effect on my constituency. It is curtailing

:48:46.:48:51.

homelessness prevention strategy and already jeopardising new extra care

:48:52.:48:53.

housing developments. I will give you an example, in Wigan, and either

:48:54.:48:59.

500 extra units of extra care housing has been identified to meet

:49:00.:49:04.

housing needs and to reduce the reliance on very expensive

:49:05.:49:08.

residential care facilities and also reduce future demands on the health

:49:09.:49:12.

service. This will allow people to live independently in the community

:49:13.:49:17.

for much longer and I think we would all agree that is a great outcome

:49:18.:49:20.

for the individual, the family, the local authority and the NHS.

:49:21.:49:27.

However, two years ago, work started on implementing our strategy in a

:49:28.:49:33.

scheme comprising 130 flats and bungalows with community facilities

:49:34.:49:40.

at a site. Apart there was selected, Taurus, this key mosque in sight --

:49:41.:49:46.

design, consulted upon, planning permission obtained and funding

:49:47.:49:49.

obtained and the valuable site was transferred at a nominal cost with

:49:50.:49:52.

the support of all and the start date was imminent. I say was because

:49:53.:50:00.

with this change to the rate, this has now installed. A ?30 million

:50:01.:50:07.

project that we desperately need has stalled -- 13 million. This is not

:50:08.:50:12.

just the warming project under threat. 80 units in partnership with

:50:13.:50:20.

arena. What about those projects in the process of being built? Wigan

:50:21.:50:29.

only homes have 25 units being built, 39 units of sheltered plus

:50:30.:50:36.

scheme. The financial projections of both of these schemes do not know

:50:37.:50:40.

and up unless the government accept this type of accommodation. I will

:50:41.:50:45.

give some examples of how the future schemes are threatened and how there

:50:46.:50:48.

will not be the houses for people to move into the community, but what

:50:49.:50:51.

about our existing provision? I have been contacted about this.

:50:52.:51:02.

Across the borough, there is approximately 400 or put these

:51:03.:51:07.

providing homes for people with longer term care and support needs.

:51:08.:51:10.

This ranges from learning disabilities to autism. These are

:51:11.:51:16.

people unable to live and become a valuable part of the community. And

:51:17.:51:23.

the security and the ability of others to move into this type of

:51:24.:51:27.

accommodation is under threat due to the high rent and support charges

:51:28.:51:30.

that only digitally specialist nature of the accommodation. -- due

:51:31.:51:39.

to the specialist nature. One mother contacted the homes company about

:51:40.:51:42.

hearts severely autistic son and said, will I have to have him in the

:51:43.:51:46.

home permanently for ever? She came with scratches all down her arms

:51:47.:51:54.

where he had attacked her. With the honourable member recognise a case

:51:55.:51:59.

where a 19-year-old with serious mental health problems, serious

:52:00.:52:05.

autism, topped them from a Bridgen St Helens from threatening to commit

:52:06.:52:11.

suicide, waiting for a bed, mental health bed, and the only bed that

:52:12.:52:15.

was able to be offered to him is in France or Germany. I wrote to the

:52:16.:52:20.

Minister and I am waiting for a response. What, but can be given to

:52:21.:52:26.

that young man and his parents? I thank the honourable member for that

:52:27.:52:30.

intervention. I agree. There is not much comfort for the parents of

:52:31.:52:37.

young people in many constituencies who are already caring for them with

:52:38.:52:41.

severe autism and health disabilities. These people find that

:52:42.:52:46.

their choices are being limited into where the best place for the sons

:52:47.:52:56.

and daughters are. And I writ on to the price that the people who are

:52:57.:52:59.

homeless or fleeing domestic violence will pay. 35 units of

:53:00.:53:04.

disbursed accommodation will be impacted immediately because they

:53:05.:53:09.

are in their nature short-term. They are specifically for single people,

:53:10.:53:13.

saving them from going into hostels, which are not always the appropriate

:53:14.:53:16.

environment. The young man that came to see me, quite a while ago now,

:53:17.:53:22.

his parents had thrown him out when they found out he was gay. They had

:53:23.:53:27.

also very kindly emptied his bank account out at that time as well.

:53:28.:53:31.

All I could find for him was the local Salvation Army hostel, which

:53:32.:53:34.

was not a safe place for him at that time. There is a father 100 units of

:53:35.:53:40.

homelessness accommodation ranging from hostels to young mum and baby

:53:41.:53:45.

units that are threatened. And perhaps, Madam Deputy is bigger, I

:53:46.:53:50.

can mention just one of these units. It is a self-contained flat within a

:53:51.:53:56.

block. Young mums aged 16-25 and their babies are supported for a

:53:57.:53:58.

maximum of two Mac years to live independent lives. They learn from

:53:59.:54:04.

each other and live in a safe environment. They leave with

:54:05.:54:08.

confidence and skills to live in the community and be excellent role

:54:09.:54:15.

models and providers and parents for their children. How can we threaten

:54:16.:54:19.

this type of service and what will the cost be, both human and

:54:20.:54:24.

financial? There are also the women's refuges that provide a safe

:54:25.:54:28.

haven for those that have suffered emotional abuse but also the

:54:29.:54:31.

activities that provide life and family skills. And the Government

:54:32.:54:36.

solution to this is discretionary housing payments. That is not a

:54:37.:54:41.

resolution. It is an excuse to continue with an ill thought out

:54:42.:54:46.

policy. Now hosting provider can forecast finances with any degree of

:54:47.:54:49.

accuracy when your client base has to rely on cash limited Eamonn

:54:50.:54:57.

Holmes -- cash limited payments at discretion. And vulnerable people,

:54:58.:55:04.

how can we assist them to apply for these payments and at what cost all

:55:05.:55:08.

that be? How many people will deter from living independently? The

:55:09.:55:14.

policies not thought through and I welcome the announcement that there

:55:15.:55:17.

will be a review of it as it stands. But, as it stands, it will affect

:55:18.:55:24.

the most vulnerable, it will affect their families and those charged

:55:25.:55:27.

with making sure the best quality of life is available for all. The old,

:55:28.:55:33.

the ill, those at risk. Anyone who is vulnerable at any stage of their

:55:34.:55:38.

life. And it will end with increased costs and a burden on other services

:55:39.:55:44.

like the NHS. I urge the Minister to listen and provide the clarity that

:55:45.:55:49.

is needed soon. Not to rely on discretionary payments so that my

:55:50.:55:51.

constituents and others across the country can have a home that best

:55:52.:55:58.

suits their needs. The speech limit is now five minutes. Thank you. The

:55:59.:56:05.

background to this debate is the deep changes in our society. A

:56:06.:56:10.

growing population, and ageing population and more and more of our

:56:11.:56:13.

constituents living with long-term disabilities and illnesses as a

:56:14.:56:19.

result of medical advances. So, although... Not all, but many of the

:56:20.:56:24.

speeches opposite have been rather simplistic. The situation is

:56:25.:56:30.

incredibly complex. A wide range of our constituents live in supported

:56:31.:56:34.

housing. The elderly, refugees, victims of domestic live in, people

:56:35.:56:42.

living with mental health problems. -- domestic via a. Some will live in

:56:43.:56:47.

these houses for a matter of months and others for practically the whole

:56:48.:56:51.

lives. Members have outlined very passionately organisations in their

:56:52.:56:57.

constituencies who work with those people. It is evident therefore that

:56:58.:57:00.

we are going to need more of this sort of supported housing. And if

:57:01.:57:06.

this is the case, we need to ask very honestly, is this accommodation

:57:07.:57:14.

suitable? Are the services that go with it suitable? And is the

:57:15.:57:18.

supported living getting the best value for taxpayers' money? Because

:57:19.:57:24.

if it is not, it will be unsustainable in the long term and

:57:25.:57:27.

in the end it will be those vulnerable in our societies and

:57:28.:57:33.

communities who suffer. I very much welcome the fact that this is a

:57:34.:57:36.

consultation. The Government is listening and we have seen that from

:57:37.:57:39.

the one-year moratorium announced today. This debate will be part of

:57:40.:57:47.

that and I know that there are representations from housing

:57:48.:57:54.

associations. We have to talk about sustainability because, as my

:57:55.:57:58.

honourable friend, who is not longer in his place, outlined, the housing

:57:59.:58:06.

benefit bill increased by 46% between 1999 and 2010. This was not

:58:07.:58:10.

a fair balance between those families living in social housing

:58:11.:58:13.

and hard-working families who did not quite meet that threshold. We

:58:14.:58:18.

have to have supported housing on a sustainable footing. This policy is

:58:19.:58:23.

still being developed and with that in mind, I would be grateful if the

:58:24.:58:26.

Minister would look very closely at the representations from my local

:58:27.:58:33.

housing association, Progress Housing, which serves people all

:58:34.:58:38.

over South Ribble but has refugees in other areas and supports people

:58:39.:58:45.

in a wide range of difficulties. Madam Deputy Speaker, I take great

:58:46.:58:49.

issue with some of the statements from the benches opposite that we on

:58:50.:58:52.

this site do not care about the vulnerable in our society. It is

:58:53.:58:55.

very easy to throw money at a problem and to have a quick fix. But

:58:56.:59:01.

putting supported living on a long-term, sustainable basis after a

:59:02.:59:04.

thorough consultation so that it works for everybody, not just now,

:59:05.:59:08.

not just the next election, but for the next 20-30 years, that is a

:59:09.:59:13.

clear plan of action, rather than criticism with no answers. Thank

:59:14.:59:23.

you, Madam Deputy is bigger. Many of the contributions already made from

:59:24.:59:26.

the side of the House, and they are happy to speak in the support of the

:59:27.:59:31.

motion today. The mark of Savoy Society is that it looks its most

:59:32.:59:35.

vulnerable. Yet here we have a Government seeking to remove some of

:59:36.:59:39.

those support mechanisms from the most vulnerable in our supposedly

:59:40.:59:46.

Savoy Society. -- civilised society. Does he agree that supported housing

:59:47.:59:51.

provides support older people need to maintain and allows homeless

:59:52.:59:55.

people with complex and multiple needs to help them make the

:59:56.:59:58.

transition from life on the street are settled home, education,

:59:59.:00:03.

training and employment? Surely any change to housing benefit could

:00:04.:00:05.

undermine the ability of such tents to pay their rent and would affect

:00:06.:00:10.

their mental and physical well-being. Thank you for that

:00:11.:00:14.

intervention. I agree wholeheartedly. Not only does it

:00:15.:00:21.

affect the individuals, but it will affect the organisations that

:00:22.:00:25.

provide the services. And for what purpose is it? Is it to save money?

:00:26.:00:31.

The Institute of fiscal sizes -- the Institute for Fiscal Studies says

:00:32.:00:36.

that any saving would be small. There would be little savings to the

:00:37.:00:40.

public horse but expenditure could rise as a result of the unintended

:00:41.:00:44.

consequences of this pool a photo measure. This is a classic case of

:00:45.:00:50.

robbing Peter to pay Paul. A small saving could be massively outweighed

:00:51.:00:54.

by the cost associated with providing institutional care,

:00:55.:01:00.

funding increase hospital stays and the increased cost of imprisonment.

:01:01.:01:05.

This is the very definition of fiscal irresponsibility. Figures

:01:06.:01:11.

from the Scottish Federation of Housing associations have identified

:01:12.:01:13.

that associations in Scotland could potentially lose between five

:01:14.:01:19.

million and ?40 million per year. This is unsustainable. -- ?40

:01:20.:01:29.

million. It will be to the closure of housing that supports the most

:01:30.:01:32.

vulnerable in society. There will not be the security from

:01:33.:01:35.

accommodation providers to continue even the current level of

:01:36.:01:40.

specialised accommodation, let alone plan for additional provision in

:01:41.:01:43.

years to come. I have a real concern about the effect of these changes on

:01:44.:01:49.

vulnerable young people. In my own constituency, there is an

:01:50.:01:53.

accommodation project. It has nine supported flats in West Lothian and

:01:54.:01:55.

can accommodate up to 16 young people between the ages of 16-21.

:01:56.:02:02.

The flats are fully furnished and most share accommodation. The aim of

:02:03.:02:05.

the supported flat is to prepare young people for tenancy. When a

:02:06.:02:08.

young person enjoys the supported flat service, they have a dedicated

:02:09.:02:12.

support worker who will work with them to give personal and practical

:02:13.:02:17.

support, helping them to have self-confidence and live

:02:18.:02:20.

independently. Already the young people who are being supported on

:02:21.:02:22.

experiencing a number of issues with the existing situation. The time it

:02:23.:02:29.

takes to receive payments for benefits is a problem and it can

:02:30.:02:32.

have an impact on young people living in the accommodation. Other

:02:33.:02:37.

media concern is that there is no longer a seven-day run-on. If young

:02:38.:02:43.

people after millimetre, the sign for the tenancy and cannot set of

:02:44.:02:46.

utilities and apply for the social welfare fund for the most basic

:02:47.:02:51.

necessities. That uncertainty as to what might come with reductions in

:02:52.:02:54.

housing benefit can only exacerbate these issues, which are already

:02:55.:02:59.

applying to them. It might even put his vocal support of accommodation

:03:00.:03:03.

at risk. How will organisations such as those planned for the future when

:03:04.:03:05.

faced with yet more funding challenges? Never comes one of the

:03:06.:03:11.

more CDs of the unintended consequences, the impact on funding

:03:12.:03:14.

for support accommodation, which puts people with substance abuse

:03:15.:03:20.

problems. -- supports people. Many organisations are doing amazing

:03:21.:03:24.

work, especially with ex-offenders, helping them to rebuild lives and

:03:25.:03:28.

rejoin society. Funding for this accommodation, which faces cuts, is

:03:29.:03:35.

intolerable. A number of young people, and leaving this

:03:36.:03:37.

institution, will be dependent on the ... If these draconian proposals

:03:38.:03:48.

are implemented. Your Mac does my honourable friend not agree that at

:03:49.:03:53.

a cost of over ?40,000 a year in prison, this could be a totally

:03:54.:03:58.

false economy? She makes a point very well. It is a

:03:59.:04:02.

completely false economy and I believe it will cost the public

:04:03.:04:05.

purse far more than the benefits they are trying to say. Again we

:04:06.:04:10.

must look at the fiscal implications. A saving in housing

:04:11.:04:13.

benefit means a lack of supported accommodation for young

:04:14.:04:16.

ex-offenders. How many of these vulnerable young people will end up

:04:17.:04:20.

back in prison at a higher cost to the public boss? -- purse? We have

:04:21.:04:35.

to make sure at the very least supported accommodation is except

:04:36.:04:39.

from these changes. We have had to mitigate the changes of the unfair

:04:40.:04:43.

bedroom tax in Scotland. And it might be illegal, as we have held

:04:44.:04:46.

today in the court case. Is the future going to be yet another

:04:47.:04:50.

botched Tory attempt at saving moves an increased burden on to Holyrood?

:04:51.:04:56.

Only with full power over our Social Security would be so protect those

:04:57.:04:59.

people in need from these housing cuts. Thank you very much indeed,

:05:00.:05:06.

Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:05:07.:05:10.

gentleman for Linlithgow and East Falkirk. I was I to say something

:05:11.:05:16.

which I hope all members in the House will be able to agree upon.

:05:17.:05:24.

Housing and home an important. -- and homes. The security of a roof

:05:25.:05:34.

over your head, temporary or permanent, is important. For that

:05:35.:05:43.

reason, I believe Labour's position today should be condemned because we

:05:44.:05:49.

have heard precisely what we are used to hearing from the Labour

:05:50.:05:54.

Party. And I have found this debate, Madam deputies bigger, slightly

:05:55.:06:01.

annoying. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. Not that it has been tabled, this is

:06:02.:06:07.

not an issue. If honourable members would just get a listen, they might

:06:08.:06:11.

just hear something which would shed a bit of light on their prejudice.

:06:12.:06:16.

I'm not annoyed by the fact this is being debated, this important issue

:06:17.:06:23.

has been tabled, but by the order of smug hand-wringing which has come

:06:24.:06:26.

from the party opposite and crocodile tears that they in

:06:27.:06:31.

essence, as they have always tried to purport, have a monopoly on

:06:32.:06:37.

caring. They believe that somehow or other we are the nasty bunch, that

:06:38.:06:41.

we couldn't give a dam about anything. And we are not. As I said

:06:42.:06:47.

in my intervention to the Shadow Minister, we all have constituents

:06:48.:06:50.

who are in sheltered housing and we want to make sure the best provision

:06:51.:06:56.

can be made for that. I say to the party opposite that there is nothing

:06:57.:07:02.

kind or caring in trying to prop up an inflated and unsustainable

:07:03.:07:06.

welfare system. That is the eternal cry of the party opposite whenever a

:07:07.:07:13.

reform is met. Does the gentleman not agree that what has actually

:07:14.:07:17.

been inflated is the ridiculous rents in many of the urban centres

:07:18.:07:20.

in the UK and that is the private system, that is why housing benefit

:07:21.:07:24.

is out of control in the first place, it is not the social sector.

:07:25.:07:30.

I'm grateful to the honourable lady for making the argument as to why it

:07:31.:07:33.

is important to have a cap on housing benefit. The absence of a

:07:34.:07:40.

cap, of any control in housing benefit, has been the fuel of the

:07:41.:07:45.

fire of those who have sought to ramp up their rents. Because if the

:07:46.:07:51.

person is bottomless, if the pit is always gone to deliver the funding

:07:52.:07:55.

for it, by definition, that provides the dynamic for the higher rents, so

:07:56.:08:02.

the introduction of a cap, we believe on the side of the house,

:08:03.:08:09.

will act as a brake on what was a runaway train. But it is the eternal

:08:10.:08:16.

crime of many of the members opposite, it is the golden thread

:08:17.:08:20.

which has run through their political approach, whenever there

:08:21.:08:23.

is a reform in this area, the default position is no, we have

:08:24.:08:28.

heard from many colleagues on the side of the house, not a single

:08:29.:08:33.

reform to welfare has been supported by the party opposite. They have

:08:34.:08:38.

learned no lessons from the general election of just last May.

:08:39.:08:46.

These schemes have demonstrated clear success in providing a better

:08:47.:08:54.

quality of life for delivering better social care and health

:08:55.:08:59.

outcomes, to provide these schemes in the future with results in

:09:00.:09:04.

greater pressures on both health and social care services as housing

:09:05.:09:08.

providers will not be able to deliver good quality independent

:09:09.:09:12.

living places and this will mean people will then go back to

:09:13.:09:18.

residential centres and old folks homes, languishing in hospitals,.

:09:19.:09:28.

The interventions are very long in the time-limited debate. The

:09:29.:09:32.

honourable lady speaks with enormous passion. Let me say this to her.

:09:33.:09:49.

What has added pressures is little certainty to those providers seeking

:09:50.:09:54.

to make short, medium and longer term financial commitments has been

:09:55.:09:59.

the panic driven shroud waving of the party opposite, trotting round

:10:00.:10:06.

the country, desperately trying to stoke this up for party political

:10:07.:10:14.

advantage. I can never resist the honourable lady from Birmingham

:10:15.:10:17.

Yardley for having passion in this issue. It is not shroud waving, both

:10:18.:10:30.

his government have made an exemption for this group and every

:10:31.:10:37.

single one of the welfare reforms. We are asking for today is not a no

:10:38.:10:41.

to the reform it is an for this group we are seeking. Is the

:10:42.:10:48.

honourable lady will have heard, that was the point made by my right

:10:49.:10:51.

honourable friend the Minister to gather the evidence to talk to

:10:52.:10:58.

experts and, with a policy in June course and I would hope, in all

:10:59.:11:00.

seriousness, that the honourable lady would roar some comfort and

:11:01.:11:05.

satisfaction from that so she can put her shroud away, she can contain

:11:06.:11:09.

herself for a few moments and the debate can go on. Just on the

:11:10.:11:15.

subject of service providers, I have spoken to all of the housing

:11:16.:11:19.

associations covering my constituency and I think their

:11:20.:11:22.

response, I hope I will not be misquoted, is as follows colon

:11:23.:11:28.

things change, systems and procedures change from time to time.

:11:29.:11:33.

New policies usually present new challenges but the view in my

:11:34.:11:36.

housing association is that we will meet them, we will reform, we will

:11:37.:11:41.

change and recast what we do but the central core of our ethos and why we

:11:42.:11:46.

are in business remains intact and that is a very important point to

:11:47.:11:53.

make. The Shadow minister who is now not in his place, and I thought the

:11:54.:11:58.

absolute brass neck to accuse my right honourable friend, the

:11:59.:12:02.

Chancellor of putting politics before policy, well of his speech

:12:03.:12:06.

did anything, it was precisely that. The crocodile tears of weaker for

:12:07.:12:11.

these people who need the sort of homes, which we all recognise, but

:12:12.:12:16.

then to drape it in the flag of party politics is shameful or stab

:12:17.:12:21.

at the heart of what her Majesty 's government is trying to do is

:12:22.:12:26.

fairness, equity and equality. It is right in my judgment that the social

:12:27.:12:31.

sector of housing benefit should be capped to mirror that of local

:12:32.:12:35.

authority level, the same rates as those in the private sector. The

:12:36.:12:40.

reforms seek to align those two sectors and prevent private social

:12:41.:12:46.

landlords from artificial rent inflation. We care on this side of

:12:47.:12:52.

the house to get it right, we care about fairness for taxpayers, we

:12:53.:12:57.

care about quality provision of housing. What we don't care for is

:12:58.:13:01.

the shroud waving and the hand-wringing and the crocodile

:13:02.:13:08.

tears of the party opposite. I'm afraid the honourable gentleman for

:13:09.:13:15.

North Dorset exemplifies the same old Tories. I want to make it

:13:16.:13:19.

perfectly clear at the start that I am a big fan of welfare reform, I

:13:20.:13:25.

believe as we move to the second half of this decade, we do need an

:13:26.:13:30.

active welfare system, however the difficulty I have with measures such

:13:31.:13:35.

as the bedroom tax, the local housing allowance and caps on

:13:36.:13:40.

housing benefit, is that I am not convinced they are genuine welfare

:13:41.:13:46.

reforms. They ignore the supplying norms in housing, landlords and the

:13:47.:13:53.

lack of specialist support of accommodation and we treat all

:13:54.:13:56.

tenants as if their circumstances are the same. In fact, we simply as

:13:57.:14:04.

board cuts from DWP to DC LT without any regard to the consequences. What

:14:05.:14:18.

you will invite are a lot of families who will find themselves

:14:19.:14:22.

destitute because they won't be able to pay the rents. That is a private

:14:23.:14:28.

landlords chartered to make money. Almost everybody realises you cannot

:14:29.:14:31.

have action on housing benefit and not have action on rents, it is

:14:32.:14:35.

self-evident. We are having this debate today because those who are

:14:36.:14:41.

the targets of this change are not the work-shy and the feckless. Too

:14:42.:14:46.

many of them are bombed rubble people. -- vulnerable people. Many

:14:47.:14:54.

people came into politics wanting to help. Elderly people, no longer fit

:14:55.:15:02.

to call look after themselves, veterans, youngsters leaving care,

:15:03.:15:07.

those fleeing domestic violence. The National Housing Federation claims

:15:08.:15:13.

that the Chancellor's changes could cost some people up to ?60 per week,

:15:14.:15:19.

and to force them to leave their accommodation and in some cases add

:15:20.:15:22.

to the growing number of casualties sleeping on our streets, as the

:15:23.:15:28.

homelessness crisis sweeps the country like a plague. The NHS also

:15:29.:15:35.

speculate that it may lead to the closure of thousands of homes, the

:15:36.:15:39.

kinds of places we are talking about our retirement homes, active elderly

:15:40.:15:45.

establishments designed to improve the quality of life, supported

:15:46.:15:50.

accommodation and temporary accommodation. Is that really the

:15:51.:15:55.

kind of reform that the members opposite want to see? There is

:15:56.:16:01.

already a 16,000 shortfall in demand for support of accommodation and

:16:02.:16:07.

estimates say that it is likely to double by the end of this

:16:08.:16:08.

Parliament. I had the privilege recently of

:16:09.:16:17.

opening an extra care scheme and they are predicting that if the cap

:16:18.:16:21.

goes ahead that residents there will have to pay an extra ?50 per week

:16:22.:16:26.

which is completely unsustainable. I think we have heard from members

:16:27.:16:30.

opposite that they have the same fears and there is a lot riding on

:16:31.:16:37.

this review. What I want to say is that without exemption for those

:16:38.:16:40.

with a clear learning disability who lives in supported accommodation, we

:16:41.:16:46.

are about to witness a housing disaster for such people. After

:16:47.:16:52.

years of talking about rights and independence, are we seriously going

:16:53.:16:57.

to banish them to institutions and substandard care homes? Seven out of

:16:58.:17:01.

ten people with a learning disability would prefer to live by

:17:02.:17:07.

themselves or with friends rather than in a registered care home or

:17:08.:17:12.

with their parents. Aren't they entitled to aspire to that? Aren't

:17:13.:17:19.

they entitled to that degree of independence? Can the society,

:17:20.:17:24.

whatever cuts we want to make, not afford to shore just a bit of

:17:25.:17:30.

generosity to such people? How will the government ever succeed closing

:17:31.:17:39.

places and deliver on NHS England's 2015 strategy, building the right

:17:40.:17:44.

support, without a supported housing plan for those with learning

:17:45.:17:49.

disabilities? And what about young people leaving care? How are they

:17:50.:17:53.

going to make the first step on the ladder to independence? Vulnerable

:17:54.:17:59.

young people, especially care leavers, should be excluded from the

:18:00.:18:03.

under 35 is shared accommodation rule will stop we should hear that

:18:04.:18:08.

today. I wonder if the Minister is now in a position to tell us when

:18:09.:18:13.

the housing benefit regulations for those aged 18-21 will be published.

:18:14.:18:22.

And how have we got to a situation, Madam Deputy Speaker, where the cap

:18:23.:18:25.

applies to any tenancy signed after the 1st of April, only 62 days away

:18:26.:18:30.

and housing associations are still not clear about the plans. The

:18:31.:18:38.

Minister has offered no details of his review today and his party has

:18:39.:18:45.

got for him on promising things during debates which it then

:18:46.:18:50.

backtracks on. In fact, everybody knows there is a dangerous air of

:18:51.:18:55.

hubris about government ministers these days. I think they might find

:18:56.:19:00.

a degree of support if these measures were intended for working

:19:01.:19:05.

age adults in general needs housing only, instead of such a sweeping

:19:06.:19:15.

threat to the vulnerable. This allows for the comments about my

:19:16.:19:21.

right honourable friend, the member for Wentworth made earlier during my

:19:22.:19:25.

intervention. I believe that the Minister would ease the situation a

:19:26.:19:31.

little if he could say today that service charges will not be included

:19:32.:19:35.

in the cap because it is obvious that sheltered accommodation,

:19:36.:19:39.

supportive housing schemes and extra care measures, and higher rents and

:19:40.:19:44.

service charges since they are more expensive to build and manage, but

:19:45.:19:49.

they bring huge savings to the NHS and other services. Some housing

:19:50.:19:57.

associations, as we heard earlier, including Midland heart, a few these

:19:58.:20:02.

proposals could cost them a huge shortfall, over ?1 million, in some

:20:03.:20:08.

cases a discrepancy in housing payments will not deal with that.

:20:09.:20:12.

Before this debate concludes, the minister needs to tell us that he

:20:13.:20:16.

has got plans to protect bombed rubble people, he needs to give some

:20:17.:20:21.

clue to what they are, he has to demonstrate that he has listened to

:20:22.:20:28.

the plight of those in support accommodation -- protective

:20:29.:20:30.

honourable people. And definitely exclude them from these measures. --

:20:31.:20:36.

protect vulnerable people. A pleasure to follow the honourable

:20:37.:20:41.

member from Birmingham. These measures about striking a fair deal,

:20:42.:20:45.

half year deal for those in accommodation and a fair deal for

:20:46.:20:49.

those who provide accommodation and for the taxpayer. And there has to

:20:50.:20:54.

be a balance in the increases in rents paid in the social housing

:20:55.:20:57.

sector and those in the private rented sector.

:20:58.:21:01.

Over the last ten years, there has been a 60% increase in rent paid in

:21:02.:21:09.

the social housing sector. At the same time in the private rented

:21:10.:21:16.

sector, a 23% increase. The 1% reduction in housing benefit I

:21:17.:21:22.

believe is very fair to the taxpayer and tenants and means housing

:21:23.:21:29.

associations get a fair deal. It is one I believe that they can manage.

:21:30.:21:33.

And of course, this is all about balancing books. In the last up to

:21:34.:21:43.

four years, almost 20 years of those -- in the last 24 years, there has

:21:44.:21:50.

been accumulated debt of trillion. This Government has reduced the

:21:51.:21:55.

deficit to ?75 billion. But that is much more to do. And the last eight

:21:56.:22:00.

months since I have been in this place, the opposition has opposed

:22:01.:22:05.

every single cut. So how would you balance those books? Would you cut

:22:06.:22:09.

health care, Armed Forces, welfare, pensions? Where will you cut? Come

:22:10.:22:16.

up with constructive suggestions about how you would make those cuts.

:22:17.:22:21.

All in it to housing associations. They have a responsibility to use

:22:22.:22:27.

taxpayers money Mac -- taxpayers' money wisely. They housing

:22:28.:22:31.

associations collectively employ 91,000 people and those numbers have

:22:32.:22:37.

been growing. A 1% reduction per annum, is that feasible in an

:22:38.:22:42.

organisation like that? Yes, I believe it is. In the private

:22:43.:22:45.

sector, that is something that is managed on a regular basis. These

:22:46.:22:51.

changes, I believe, are fair and will result in huge savings. ?255

:22:52.:22:56.

million by the end of this Parliament. And in future

:22:57.:23:03.

parliaments, ?1.1 billion per year. So, yes, they might need to be

:23:04.:23:05.

consolidations and yes, more efficiencies. I will give way. Does

:23:06.:23:13.

he not recognise any impact on supportive housing is going to fly

:23:14.:23:17.

in the face of any idea of economic credibility? The knock-on effects of

:23:18.:23:22.

supported accommodation closing, there will be more costs to

:23:23.:23:27.

residential care and the NHS and the impact on the taxpayer will be

:23:28.:23:30.

higher. This is not a good economic policy. We need to support

:23:31.:23:35.

vulnerable people in accommodation and there is no question about that.

:23:36.:23:41.

I believe that our homes, hostels, sheltered housing need that support.

:23:42.:23:45.

Yes, this is a much more labour-intensive part of the market.

:23:46.:23:51.

For personal care and in terms of supervision and maidens. I

:23:52.:23:55.

absolutely believe that. Does the honourable gentleman not recognise,

:23:56.:23:59.

following on from the honourable lady's point, the most complex need

:24:00.:24:06.

for people... The difference in cost is 18,500 homes and the biggest user

:24:07.:24:10.

of supported living our people over 70. At the moment, the debates we

:24:11.:24:16.

are having over health is trying to get people into the community.

:24:17.:24:18.

People will end up in expensive alternatives. Tayyab Subhani except

:24:19.:24:24.

that point and be need to make sure we protect our most vulnerable

:24:25.:24:27.

people. That is what I believe we will do. Many of those that provide

:24:28.:24:33.

this supported housing and specialist accommodation are of

:24:34.:24:39.

course part of much larger organisations, able to blend these

:24:40.:24:41.

reductions right across various things. But there are some

:24:42.:24:48.

specialist providers that we want to make sure still providing that

:24:49.:24:54.

accommodation. This is in the early stages, in consultation. I welcome

:24:55.:24:59.

the minister's announcement that there will be a one-year delay in

:25:00.:25:02.

the introductions of the meeting get this right. This has been spoken

:25:03.:25:08.

about before. The homelessness Minister said in September of last

:25:09.:25:13.

year that specialised support of accommodation is likely to be

:25:14.:25:17.

exempted. I think there is no need for members of the opposition to

:25:18.:25:22.

basically frighten our residents and make them feel that they will lose

:25:23.:25:25.

their homes. It is irresponsible. Irresponsible. And on top of

:25:26.:25:34.

everything else, of course there is ?800 million in discretionary

:25:35.:25:36.

housing payments in this Parliament for the more vulnerable tenants.

:25:37.:25:41.

Those who suffer domestic violence, ?40 million. I would say to members

:25:42.:25:46.

opposite, wait for the results of the policy because the policy I

:25:47.:25:50.

believe will provide a fair deal for our most honourable evil. -- people.

:25:51.:25:58.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have been listening to the speeches

:25:59.:26:02.

from members opposite since the debate started and I do wonder

:26:03.:26:05.

whether some of them are actually in the right debate. Because if they

:26:06.:26:10.

are that the order paper, they will see that the debate is about

:26:11.:26:13.

supported housing. It is not about housing costs bills, it is not about

:26:14.:26:20.

taxation, it is about a very specific vulnerable group of people.

:26:21.:26:26.

We keep hearing that we will wait to see the proposals. If that is the

:26:27.:26:31.

case, would it not been sensible for the Government from the beginning,

:26:32.:26:34.

before announcing these are proposals, to actually look into the

:26:35.:26:40.

whole area and work out how much would cost, what the issues are, and

:26:41.:26:46.

then have this reviewed before making the announcement? Because if

:26:47.:26:49.

they carried that Revere properly, they would have found these

:26:50.:26:57.

proposals are counter productive economically and morally. If they

:26:58.:27:00.

had done their homework before making the announcement, maybe we

:27:01.:27:04.

would not have this debate. Can I say, the suggestion he may is so

:27:05.:27:11.

unfair. I very rarely cry, but when I do, they are real tears. And also

:27:12.:27:17.

on this site, we do care about people. The reason that we care

:27:18.:27:22.

about people is because that is what the Labour Party is founded for. As

:27:23.:27:26.

the suggestions from members across that somehow social housing groups

:27:27.:27:31.

have pots of money and spend millions of pounds on campaigning,

:27:32.:27:36.

absolute rubbish. I have been contacted by a number of housing

:27:37.:27:39.

associations and charities which are looking after vulnerable people in

:27:40.:27:44.

my constituency and I can assure you that they do not have money to waste

:27:45.:27:49.

on campaigning. I visited these places and I have seen what has

:27:50.:27:53.

happened. So let me enlighten the House about an organisation in my

:27:54.:27:58.

constituency that is carrying out valuable work. One is the main

:27:59.:28:05.

social provider of social housing in Bolton. They contacted me and I

:28:06.:28:08.

speak to them regularly in any event. They say that thousands of

:28:09.:28:14.

children will end at being made homeless and hundreds of adults as

:28:15.:28:19.

well. Apart from social housing, they provide supported housing. It

:28:20.:28:26.

is important to remember what supported housing means. It is the

:28:27.:28:30.

vulnerable, the disabled, the elderly, people with mental health

:28:31.:28:34.

issues, the young. That is what we are talking about! I tell you

:28:35.:28:38.

something, by actually saying that somehow calming them out of

:28:39.:28:42.

supported housing, the Government is actually going to look on eyes and

:28:43.:28:46.

cut the costs, it is absolute rubbish. -- going to a con --

:28:47.:29:00.

economise. Saint Vincent 's, which is a charity that runs a secure unit

:29:01.:29:04.

for six adults, relies on housing benefits to be able to look after

:29:05.:29:12.

people. People with drug problems and mental health problems. Very

:29:13.:29:15.

vulnerable people. But then on the street and they will probably commit

:29:16.:29:18.

crimes and end up in the prison system, causing the state more

:29:19.:29:22.

money. I also have another association which has companions for

:29:23.:29:30.

honourable people. They usually housing benefit to provide support

:29:31.:29:34.

for them. -- they use the housing benefit. I do not understand where

:29:35.:29:39.

this Government seems to think that the proposals would actually make

:29:40.:29:44.

them save money. They are counter-productive. I know my

:29:45.:29:47.

honourable friend wants to intervene. Thank you for giving way.

:29:48.:29:54.

In the words of the late Ronald Reagan, there you go again. It

:29:55.:29:58.

sounds like the honourable lady has a monopoly of understanding. Does

:29:59.:30:01.

she not accept that beyond this side of the House also topped to service

:30:02.:30:04.

providers in constituency and we know what is going on? I genuinely

:30:05.:30:10.

do sometimes have to struggle with the idea whether members on that

:30:11.:30:16.

side of the House do care or are bothered. Because I tell you

:30:17.:30:20.

something, if you were genuinely bothered about the disabled and the

:30:21.:30:25.

vulnerable people, you would have spent your five-minute speech

:30:26.:30:29.

talking about it, not actually criticising the Labour members

:30:30.:30:36.

opposite, cars, for bringing this matter up in the House and accusing

:30:37.:30:40.

us... I do not i-mate energy said Crocker the deals. -- I do not know

:30:41.:30:47.

how many times you said crocodile tears. I got carried away, sorry,

:30:48.:30:53.

Madam David is bigger. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. If the members

:30:54.:30:59.

opposite were genuinely worried about four honourable people, they

:31:00.:31:01.

would support us today. All we are asking about is that people with a

:31:02.:31:15.

whole range of issues... For example, the members in an

:31:16.:31:17.

organisation in my constituency has companions. They usually benefit for

:31:18.:31:27.

that. The companions then have to pay other taxes and other social

:31:28.:31:31.

security benefits. The actual cost of providing homes is ?1000 to the

:31:32.:31:37.

charity. But they do it because they want to help these people learn

:31:38.:31:42.

skills and integrated society. This cutting of benefit will mean that

:31:43.:31:45.

they have to find more money to be able to support these people. If the

:31:46.:31:49.

people in St Vincent Akhtar and tarmac turfed out, -- Parkhurst out,

:31:50.:31:59.

I go back to the question I asked right at the beginning. Can the

:32:00.:32:05.

Minister guarantee that people currently in supported housing will

:32:06.:32:10.

not be turfed out their home? Will we be supported and protected? I

:32:11.:32:17.

have not had an answer. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to

:32:18.:32:20.

participate in this opposition debate. Since my election 2015, I

:32:21.:32:26.

have worked closer with my main Housing Association, who do a superb

:32:27.:32:30.

job representing tenants. Getting more people into homes was a key

:32:31.:32:33.

election priority for me. We have acute shortage of homes in my

:32:34.:32:38.

constituency and I am pleased this Government has set out an ambition

:32:39.:32:42.

to deliver 1 million new homes by 2020. I applaud the doubling of the

:32:43.:32:48.

housing budget to make this happen. Whilst this Government has rightly

:32:49.:32:51.

increasing housing spending in the budget, difficult decisions have to

:32:52.:32:54.

be made of this Government is to deliver a budget surplus by 2020.

:32:55.:32:59.

With these ambitions in mind, I am conscious that the Housing Benefit

:33:00.:33:04.

Bill Double Has Increased By ?6.7 Billion Between 1997 And 2010 To

:33:05.:33:09.

Reach A Total Of 23 Billion. I Welcome The Intention To Reduce The

:33:10.:33:20.

Housing Bill. Reducing some rents by 1% and requiring higher in

:33:21.:33:25.

containers to pay the market rates. Whilst I recognise concerns raised

:33:26.:33:28.

in this motion, I thought understand why the Government is looking to cap

:33:29.:33:32.

the rent that housing benefit will cover in the social sector from that

:33:33.:33:40.

of the local housing allowance. I am also conscious, as my honourable

:33:41.:33:45.

friend mentioned, that in the last ten years, average social rents have

:33:46.:33:52.

raised the macros and by -- have risen. There have been concerns that

:33:53.:33:59.

rent rises in the social sector needs reform. However, my leading

:34:00.:34:04.

local housing association provider have written to me prior to the

:34:05.:34:09.

Government's welcome announcement to express concerns as to how it will

:34:10.:34:11.

cover the additional funding required for supported housing for

:34:12.:34:17.

those with complex needs. I am father told that as a result of

:34:18.:34:20.

these concerns, a proposed extra care scheme which will open in

:34:21.:34:27.

Bexhill could be shelved. Representing a constituency where

:34:28.:34:31.

the proportion of over 65-year-olds is 20%, compared to the national

:34:32.:34:36.

average of 17%, with an even greater duty on me to ensure that the

:34:37.:34:40.

sometimes complex needs of my constituents are properly recognised

:34:41.:34:44.

and taken into account. I welcome the Government's intention to build

:34:45.:34:47.

a framework to support us vulnerable at the same time as delivering the

:34:48.:34:51.

forms to housing benefit, which I also support. I am conscious that

:34:52.:34:54.

the Government recognises our new reforms will need time to bed in and

:34:55.:34:58.

will cost millions and the Government will pump money in to

:34:59.:35:02.

support these reforms as it did in the last term during housing benefit

:35:03.:35:08.

reform. In addition to the ?465 million of discretionary housing the

:35:09.:35:13.

stomach benefits the Government has pledged, the Government has pledged

:35:14.:35:17.

extra money which I welcome. If it is part of his review, I asked the

:35:18.:35:21.

minister if it would be possible to build some form of LHA which would

:35:22.:35:25.

embrace the Cabinet was some top up to cover the cost requirements of

:35:26.:35:28.

housing associations to provide for the most honourable. Until this

:35:29.:35:32.

time, I hope speculation from this House does not lead to the most

:35:33.:35:39.

vulnerable being driven to worry about something that might not

:35:40.:35:43.

occur. I would like to reference the importance for all housing

:35:44.:35:46.

associations start with care and compassion to tenants. I acted on

:35:47.:35:52.

concern of a number of residents on the border of my constituency. The

:35:53.:35:56.

tenants were informed in writing that their landlord was looking to

:35:57.:36:01.

decamp the properties. There was very little detail given to

:36:02.:36:03.

residents who were in the homes for years. There was talk of moving

:36:04.:36:06.

these tenants out of the town. Is as at a time when people can buy

:36:07.:36:15.

the property, I was staggered that these residents the worker Neto,

:36:16.:36:22.

educate the children in these town, could lose their homes. They require

:36:23.:36:29.

that any tenant decanted from properties to be sold under this

:36:30.:36:31.

policy are suitably rehoused to their satisfaction before the date

:36:32.:36:37.

of the completion of disposal. In my interpretation, this means that the

:36:38.:36:41.

test of whether alternatives are suitable are a subjective one for my

:36:42.:36:45.

constituents and I will work on their behalf for a better outcome. I

:36:46.:36:50.

use this example because I feel it is essential where government is

:36:51.:36:52.

rightly giving rights to tenants to buy their own housing that the law

:36:53.:36:57.

of unintended consequences does not take into deprived of these rights.

:36:58.:37:02.

In conclusion, I welcome the desire of this government to make savings

:37:03.:37:05.

in the housing benefits bill and use these proceeds to build more houses

:37:06.:37:08.

and I welcome the fact that the government is looking how they can

:37:09.:37:11.

support tenants of Housing associations who are vulnerable and

:37:12.:37:15.

need additional support and I look forward to championing needs of all

:37:16.:37:19.

my constituents who live in housing association properties. I am

:37:20.:37:25.

grateful for the virginity to take part in this important debate and I

:37:26.:37:28.

must congratulate Labour for bringing it before the house today

:37:29.:37:30.

-- grateful for the opportunity. I support the points and questions

:37:31.:37:44.

posed by the honourable member for Sheffield South East. I hope the

:37:45.:37:49.

Minister was taking note and will respond to those pertinent points. I

:37:50.:37:54.

also recommend that the honourable member looks at the House of Commons

:37:55.:38:00.

library briefing on the subject and in the Ottoman statement made by the

:38:01.:38:05.

Chancellor as I don't believe the speeches bear any resemblance to any

:38:06.:38:11.

of those statements. A secure, one of that for purpose home is a right

:38:12.:38:14.

we should all enjoy and should never be threatened, least of all by the

:38:15.:38:18.

state, yet I am afraid this is what this government is doing. We have

:38:19.:38:22.

already seen what this government is capable of through the expansion of

:38:23.:38:25.

the bedroom tag and we are again seeing it here in the proposal to

:38:26.:38:29.

cut housing benefit and on the subject of the bed tax, we hear

:38:30.:38:33.

today that the Court of Appeal has ruled that two cases where the

:38:34.:38:37.

policy is discriminatory. In light of this ruling and the overwhelming

:38:38.:38:40.

evidence of how detrimental the policy has been, the UK government

:38:41.:38:43.

must now think again on the bedroom tax and on this trip Ozil to cut

:38:44.:38:48.

housing benefit and not just think about it for a year but for good.

:38:49.:38:53.

Get back to the drawing board and start again from bases of supporting

:38:54.:38:57.

people in homes, not threatening to evict them from their homes. In

:38:58.:39:01.

Scotland the SNP Scottish government has committed to building 50,000

:39:02.:39:05.

affordable homes in the course of the next parliament should the SNP

:39:06.:39:09.

be returned, providing much-needed capacity in the social rented sector

:39:10.:39:14.

because we recognised the need to build houses, not cut supported

:39:15.:39:17.

housing benefits recipients. The Scottish government has also taken

:39:18.:39:21.

the necessary steps to mitigate the Draconian bedroom tax by providing

:39:22.:39:25.

?90 million to more than 70,000 households that have escaped rental

:39:26.:39:29.

arrears and the threat of eviction. The Scottish government has done

:39:30.:39:35.

this is by the overall budget cut of 12.5%, since the SNP came to power

:39:36.:39:42.

in 2007. In Scotland we realise that a house is a home and would serve

:39:43.:39:45.

the UK government wealth to bear that in mind as well. This

:39:46.:39:48.

cut-throat threatens the roof over the heads of housing benefit

:39:49.:39:54.

claimants. -- this cut threatens the roof. Over 800,000 families across

:39:55.:39:59.

the UK will be affected by these cuts costing them an average of

:40:00.:40:04.

?1300 a year. Wearable bus shortfall in annual rent bills be found? --

:40:05.:40:09.

where will this shortfall be found? The Scottish Federation of Housing

:40:10.:40:25.

associations estimated a single person under the age of 35 who is in

:40:26.:40:29.

receipt of housing benefit will face a weekly shortfall of ?6 22, which

:40:30.:40:37.

equates to an annual loss of ?323. A total loss to the housing

:40:38.:40:41.

associations of 2.8 million per year. The area where this cut is of

:40:42.:40:46.

great concern is woman's refuges, Scottish woman's age wrote to Lord

:40:47.:40:50.

Freud about the impact these cuts will have on their ability to

:40:51.:40:55.

provide a refuge service for children and women fleeing domestic

:40:56.:40:59.

violence. In a letter to the government, the commission they

:41:00.:41:02.

should have been aware of and they carried out an impact assessment it

:41:03.:41:06.

would have been clear as day to them. There are a range of

:41:07.:41:09.

additional costs involved in providing a managing refuge

:41:10.:41:12.

accommodation for woman and children fleeing domestic violence and

:41:13.:41:23.

that... LH a rates bear no resemblance to the actual cost to

:41:24.:41:26.

woman's aid groups such as Monklands woman's aid in my consistency and

:41:27.:41:32.

Winnie provide refuge facilities. I have been working closely with

:41:33.:41:37.

Sharon Aitchison who manages the company and they operate under any

:41:38.:41:40.

fine margins to provide a billion service for incredibly honourable

:41:41.:41:44.

women and children at a time of need and they have had their funding

:41:45.:41:47.

challenge but this cut to housing benefit would put them out of the

:41:48.:41:50.

game. This is what the government will have as a consequence of this

:41:51.:41:55.

cut and while I am on the subject I hope the Chancellor will reply to my

:41:56.:41:58.

letter from the 26 November last year regarding his announcement of

:41:59.:42:03.

the tampon tax fund and I have not even had an ignored them. Dillian

:42:04.:42:09.

Whyte has been done in the recent years to tackle domestic violence

:42:10.:42:10.

and better support woman and children from abuse of religion and

:42:11.:42:16.

all that work will be undone at a stroke as Monklands woman's aid

:42:17.:42:20.

would not be the only ones forced. It is time this cut, hitting those

:42:21.:42:27.

who need the support the most is scrapped.

:42:28.:42:33.

I rise to speak perhaps as one of the only people in this room,

:42:34.:42:41.

perhaps even in the Commons who has actually run one of these precious

:42:42.:42:46.

services and let me tell you today has been so frustrating, the lack of

:42:47.:42:50.

understanding of the practicalities and be let how it works, it has been

:42:51.:42:55.

mind-boggling so I apologise if that comes out as aggression. There are

:42:56.:43:02.

many woman who has lived in refuge and even more children. None more so

:43:03.:43:06.

than an era, the only woman who brought tears to my eyes because you

:43:07.:43:11.

learn to live with it. She was found pregnant on the side of the road and

:43:12.:43:18.

she tried to end her life, but her perpetrator she had been kept

:43:19.:43:22.

chained to a table and said scraps like an abused animal and in refuge

:43:23.:43:25.

we had to teach to eat again with small portions and slow progress.

:43:26.:43:30.

When her beautiful daughter was born and was a refuge worker who held her

:43:31.:43:34.

hand in Labour and the refuge manager who picked up from the

:43:35.:43:38.

hospital and took her back home and a woman in refuge in the game her

:43:39.:43:46.

family. Refuges are amazing. I think back to the Conservative members I

:43:47.:43:49.

have walked around woman refuges where I worked, I remember drinking

:43:50.:43:54.

tea with the honourable member from Regis and the then Minister Francis

:43:55.:44:00.

was in the playroom of one of our refuges, that playroom will not be

:44:01.:44:07.

there if these changes passed. The likelihood is that they would not

:44:08.:44:12.

have a refuge to visit under those circumstances but they were not our

:44:13.:44:15.

most eminent guess, that accolade goes to the Home Secretary herself

:44:16.:44:19.

who was a keen visitor of my domestic violence services, if the

:44:20.:44:21.

government plans to reduce housing benefit and do not exempt this

:44:22.:44:26.

group, the ministers will be letting down the Home Secretary in a big

:44:27.:44:31.

way. For every net she tries to put in place, these proposals, without

:44:32.:44:36.

exemptions, will snip a whole for women and children to fall through,

:44:37.:44:39.

the minister in front of me should make no mistake when people slip

:44:40.:44:43.

through these safety nets, born night of hard work or personal

:44:44.:44:46.

responsibility will help them, they will face danger, abuse and too many

:44:47.:44:51.

cases of death. The coalition government and this government have

:44:52.:44:54.

shown their commitment to these families in some ways, the Home

:44:55.:45:00.

Office have try to invest lots of money and have taken a good hard

:45:01.:45:03.

look at laws which will help these victims and there is a lot more to

:45:04.:45:07.

do and I don't think they are not trying and I do think that they

:45:08.:45:11.

care. I'm afraid to say that they are all fully let down by other

:45:12.:45:15.

government departments who feel to recognise their role in the fight to

:45:16.:45:18.

end domestic abuse. There is no greater offence than the Department

:45:19.:45:23.

for communities and local government with their brutal cuts to local

:45:24.:45:25.

authorities which have already closed 34 specialist women's refuges

:45:26.:45:32.

since 2010. Last year before the election they suddenly had an

:45:33.:45:35.

epiphany and released a fund to stimulate increased refuge bed

:45:36.:45:42.

spaces. That she not agree with me that the constant references to

:45:43.:45:44.

shroud waving are in fact an insult to those refuges and the housing

:45:45.:45:49.

associations who are concerned they have to cause accommodation to the

:45:50.:45:54.

most honourable people and people who do work with veterans, former

:45:55.:45:59.

veterans, they will have to close support of accommodation, of the

:46:00.:46:04.

party opposite are so scared about scaremongering and shroud waving

:46:05.:46:06.

they can put an end to that by doing something about this policy. I

:46:07.:46:10.

couldn't agree more, the simple thing to do is exempt them and we

:46:11.:46:15.

now that the government will probably do it, we have waved our

:46:16.:46:19.

shrouds in every single case and do you know what, they listened, so

:46:20.:46:22.

stop me having to talk about this, stop making me a shroud waiver, just

:46:23.:46:28.

do it. Going back to the ?10 million over the 12 months that they gave

:46:29.:46:34.

just before the election, which was intended to create new beds, I have

:46:35.:46:38.

had Mr stand at the dispatch box and caught the number of beds they have

:46:39.:46:42.

created and I know that every single bed that will have been put forward

:46:43.:46:45.

in that fund would have made the calculation based on the current and

:46:46.:46:49.

existing rates of housing benefit. I know that every bed would have had

:46:50.:46:55.

calculation is based on the current and existing housing benefit rates.

:46:56.:47:01.

Without the housing benefit plus settlement, the ?10 million offered

:47:02.:47:03.

would have been completely meaningless and I know this because

:47:04.:47:08.

I helped to write three of the successful bids. I have run refuges

:47:09.:47:13.

that survived solely on housing benefit contributions without any

:47:14.:47:15.

recall to the now nonexistent supporting people funds. My charity,

:47:16.:47:20.

when times were tough and our refuge funding was cut in half, we sucked

:47:21.:47:24.

it up, we make tough decisions and be found new ways and new funds, we

:47:25.:47:28.

worked on different models to bring in support staff to the refuge, none

:47:29.:47:31.

of it would have been possible without the existing system for

:47:32.:47:35.

housing benefit. That is why we got all those Tories coming to see us,

:47:36.:47:39.

haven't we done such a good job of cutting our class, we could only do

:47:40.:47:43.

it because of housing benefit. First day of this change would have closed

:47:44.:47:47.

at least 20 of our bed spaces, turning away every year over 100

:47:48.:47:51.

women and as many of not more vulnerable children. This week I'd

:47:52.:47:56.

stood in the childcare debate on bed for the responsible minister to

:47:57.:47:58.

consider exempting victims of domestic violence from the rules are

:47:59.:48:02.

the 16 hour threshold for increased childcare, he stopped me in my

:48:03.:48:08.

tracks and made that commitment. I am begging those opposite to do what

:48:09.:48:14.

he did. What the Home Secretary is trying to do, to protect victims of

:48:15.:48:17.

domestic violence and their children. The Minister might think

:48:18.:48:22.

it is hyperbole but I should say it anyway was that without the

:48:23.:48:27.

exemption, what he is proposing for many will be a death penalty. Please

:48:28.:48:31.

don't do it. It has now become apparent,

:48:32.:48:44.

increasingly apparent that this government is one of the most

:48:45.:48:47.

pusillanimous in living memory when it comes to tackling the powerful

:48:48.:48:51.

with a vested interest in this country whether it is for the

:48:52.:48:54.

interest of the media, utilities, any companies who have replaced the

:48:55.:49:01.

coffers of the Tory party. This pusillanimous approach extends the

:49:02.:49:04.

international level as well. The kowtowing to foreign governments

:49:05.:49:08.

whether it be the Chinese government or the Saudi Arabian government is

:49:09.:49:11.

cringeworthy and embarrassing and not worthy of a British government.

:49:12.:49:16.

It has come to something when the Italian government has managed to

:49:17.:49:20.

get all money out of taxes on big corporations than the Chancellor of

:49:21.:49:22.

the Exchequer and that is saying something. If you are a young, old,

:49:23.:49:28.

disabled or physically and mentally distressed, unemployed in low pay,

:49:29.:49:33.

in temporary and zero hours contracts, you are fair game for

:49:34.:49:36.

this government. This is a government who challenges the week

:49:37.:49:39.

and the vulnerable and needy and dresses it up as a virtue or

:49:40.:49:42.

character building. But of course the Trent has now begun to discredit

:49:43.:49:47.

anybody who gets it this way things that it is getting in its way. The

:49:48.:49:53.

government can teach a Mafia a thing or two about extortion but without

:49:54.:49:57.

the charm. The House of Lords challenges the governments of the

:49:58.:50:00.

government is now given thought as to how to clip the wings of their

:50:01.:50:05.

lords and ladies ships. The district they have only managed to do that

:50:06.:50:09.

now, now that they don't have a built-in majority there. As for the

:50:10.:50:13.

banks and the bankers, only today we have seen the continued fallout from

:50:14.:50:17.

the reckless decisions that led to the crisis with RBS for example

:50:18.:50:23.

today having to put aside a further ?2 billion to cover their

:50:24.:50:26.

incompetence. The ministers on behalf of the government want to

:50:27.:50:31.

blame the last Labour government, yet this was the same group of

:50:32.:50:35.

people who are in the form of the shadow cabinet in 2007, who lock

:50:36.:50:39.

stock and barrel wanted to deregulate the banking and financial

:50:40.:50:44.

services even more, freeing to compete document which in the light

:50:45.:50:49.

of the banking crisis, caused by their friends in the city, was

:50:50.:50:53.

quietly buried, much to the chagrin of the right on all member for

:50:54.:50:56.

walking, who quarter needed it. I copy this document.

:50:57.:51:05.

I suggest members opposite acquaint themselves with this document if

:51:06.:51:10.

they can find it. The Prime Minister patted himself on the back again for

:51:11.:51:15.

the Government's record on tax collection. If that is the best this

:51:16.:51:18.

Government can do, no wonder it penalises those who can at least

:51:19.:51:22.

afford it. If it cannot get money from the corporations, you will get

:51:23.:51:25.

it from the dispossessed. Once again, and other policy that has not

:51:26.:51:33.

been thought through. The impact on the longer term finances of local

:51:34.:51:36.

Governor than the Health Service are potentially catastrophic. Elderly

:51:37.:51:43.

persons in supported accommodation, it is much cheaper than the

:51:44.:51:54.

proposals. Not content with penalising old people for being old,

:51:55.:51:59.

the Government have focused on people with disabilities, victims of

:52:00.:52:04.

domestic violence... And in 440,000 homes potentially affected.

:52:05.:52:06.

Discretionary support will not make up the difference. The St Vincent

:52:07.:52:12.

Housing Association says that these proposals look like having a

:52:13.:52:16.

detrimental effect, more so than any other recent housing or welfare

:52:17.:52:22.

announcement. In my own constituency, the Housing

:52:23.:52:27.

Association will struggle. For sheltered housing schemes, it cost

:52:28.:52:31.

?123 per week. There will be a shortfall of ?32. These will have a

:52:32.:52:37.

significant detrimental effect on those organisations able to support

:52:38.:52:41.

the most vulnerable. I know that when we talk about the most

:52:42.:52:45.

honourable, the opposition accuses of shroud waving. We are just

:52:46.:52:51.

telling the facts as it is. The facts as it possibly could be.

:52:52.:52:55.

Honourable members over the other side can wring their hands and

:52:56.:52:58.

accuse my right honourable friend, the shadow Housing Minister, of

:52:59.:53:01.

being a scaremonger, but we're putting their heads in the sand even

:53:02.:53:08.

more than they usually do. -- but they are. It is the responsibility

:53:09.:53:12.

of this House and ministers across the way to get a grip of the

:53:13.:53:16.

Chancellor and get him to change his mind, for the umpteenth time. Mr

:53:17.:53:24.

Deputy Speaker, thank you. Cambridge is a high-cost area and is in the

:53:25.:53:28.

grip of a housing crisis. It is a modified Rob and it is complicated

:53:29.:53:31.

but I have to say that every single thing the Government is doing is

:53:32.:53:35.

making it worse at the moment and this policy is no exception. We had

:53:36.:53:38.

members opposite ask what Labour would do. Three-year terraces with

:53:39.:53:43.

it unexpected rent rises would be a good start and I commend it to them.

:53:44.:53:50.

-- tenancies. I have been talking to providers of social housing in

:53:51.:53:52.

Cambridge and what struck me as every single one of them warned

:53:53.:53:56.

about the dangers of this policy and the effects it will have on our

:53:57.:54:00.

city. I will tell you what they have told me. Let's start at the YMCA,

:54:01.:54:05.

which has 80 residents, a mix of students and people in work. 70

:54:06.:54:09.

received housing benefit. They tell me that if housing benefit is cut,

:54:10.:54:13.

it will simply be the case that they will be turfed out onto the street.

:54:14.:54:18.

The YMCA the one to do that but they will have no alternative and that

:54:19.:54:20.

will undermine the recovery programmes and cause yet more young

:54:21.:54:24.

people to end up living not on the Conservatives' spin happy road to

:54:25.:54:30.

recovery but on the street. And Cambridge City Council directly

:54:31.:54:33.

provides manages over 100 units of accommodation for homeless

:54:34.:54:37.

households, including three hostels, 22 units of move on accommodation

:54:38.:54:40.

for adults recovering from mental health conditions and 13 shot at

:54:41.:54:50.

housing units. It'll be the same story for every member across the

:54:51.:54:57.

House, and they have said that tenants will face a higher net pay

:54:58.:55:01.

of rent per week. No more income to pay it, just higher rent. These are

:55:02.:55:05.

of honourable people struggling to prioritise paying the rent and we

:55:06.:55:10.

know what will happen. They will either sink into a spiral of debt or

:55:11.:55:13.

lose accommodation and most likely both. My council also tells me that

:55:14.:55:18.

because of the inevitable loss of income, they will be forced to

:55:19.:55:21.

reduce services they provide. That means fewer wardens, less support

:55:22.:55:24.

unless preventative work to stop people going into hospital. My local

:55:25.:55:35.

NHS already has severely document problems really discussed in this

:55:36.:55:39.

chamber. They talk of a joined up Government, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did

:55:40.:55:44.

not think so. This will cost more money and passes the buck onto the

:55:45.:55:47.

hospitals and homeless services which are already overstretched and

:55:48.:55:52.

working flat out. Then there are the Housing associations. The Cambridge

:55:53.:55:55.

Housing Society group tell me that the overall impact of the LHA cap

:55:56.:55:59.

will be a loss of income to them of 537 pounds per year -- ?537,000 per

:56:00.:56:07.

year. It will plunge them into significant operating loss. That

:56:08.:56:14.

scheme houses 47 people. Vulnerable teenagers, people with learning

:56:15.:56:16.

difficulties, vulnerable women and vulnerable older people. In the

:56:17.:56:20.

words, this provision will be under immediate threat. Let me be generous

:56:21.:56:31.

for more -- for the moment. The Government change their mind before.

:56:32.:56:34.

We have heard powerful arguments on the side of the House today. Maybe

:56:35.:56:37.

the Government really did not understand the consequences of these

:56:38.:56:42.

proposals. If that is the case, they should listen carefully now. Let me

:56:43.:56:45.

to include by being slightly less generous. -- conclude. This proposal

:56:46.:56:52.

is part of a deadly cocktail of housing reforms that will decimate

:56:53.:56:55.

this sector that makes our country's housing problems worse. There is a

:56:56.:56:59.

constant gap between what this Government says and what it actually

:57:00.:57:03.

does. They talk about helping our country to live within its means. In

:57:04.:57:09.

reality, they are just mean. I urge the Government to think again. We

:57:10.:57:12.

all make mistakes, there is no shame in admitting that something is you

:57:13.:57:18.

have got it wrong. It is better than inflicting so much harm in so many

:57:19.:57:24.

people. I am extremely grateful to you, Mister Deputy is bigger. -- Mr

:57:25.:57:31.

Deputy Speaker. In my part of the world, the best thing that could be

:57:32.:57:35.

said of the party opposite, the Conservative Party, is that you know

:57:36.:57:38.

where you are with them. They might be cool but at least they are

:57:39.:57:41.

competent. But after today's debate and after the week in which the

:57:42.:57:50.

Department for Work and Pensions in particular, you have to wonder about

:57:51.:57:54.

the latter part of the sentence. The Government were defeated in the

:57:55.:57:57.

other place on the ludicrous suggestion that incomes should be

:57:58.:58:02.

carved out of the meaningful measure of child poverty that the last

:58:03.:58:07.

Labour Government introduced. We moved on to the Government having to

:58:08.:58:10.

acknowledge that they should now exempt those in receipt of carers'

:58:11.:58:16.

allowance from the punishment of the benefit cap, despite having in the

:58:17.:58:24.

courts, in just the Lassie Reeves, having spent ?50,000 defending the

:58:25.:58:29.

inclusion of carers under the benefit cap. This morning, we saw

:58:30.:58:34.

the extraordinary events in the health of the kill, -- the Court of

:58:35.:58:40.

Appeal, will the Government saw its cruel bedroom tax ruled not only

:58:41.:58:48.

cruel but unlawful, discriminating against disabled people and

:58:49.:58:52.

discriminating against my friend and fellow countrymen, Mister Paul

:58:53.:58:54.

Rutherford and his wife Susan and their profoundly disabled child,

:58:55.:59:01.

Warren. He was discriminated against over many years and had his day in

:59:02.:59:05.

court today. I only hope that the Government will reflect with a

:59:06.:59:09.

little more grace than the prime Minister did today at PMQs on the

:59:10.:59:14.

meaning of that ruling in the Court of Appeal. And we will come back to

:59:15.:59:22.

this place in order to give a ... I will give way. It was always totally

:59:23.:59:31.

unfair to include carers in the bedroom tax. They cannot go out to

:59:32.:59:34.

work due to the caving whiteboards and cannot increase the number of

:59:35.:59:38.

hours that they do. They already save the state billions. Is it not

:59:39.:59:44.

time that the 60,000 unpaid family carers should be exempted? Let's

:59:45.:59:46.

call for the Government to take action on this straightaway. Mr

:59:47.:59:53.

Deputy Speaker, that is just shroud waving. As an art we have held that

:59:54.:59:57.

the last few years? Not just Vermont's, but for years we have

:59:58.:00:01.

heard shroud waving about the bedroom tax and with that of

:00:02.:00:04.

honourable people. Suggesting that it might be unlawful. It just turns

:00:05.:00:10.

out, Mr Deputy Speaker, that it is unlawful, illegal and the Government

:00:11.:00:13.

must come back to the size and the aggressive. This afternoon, the

:00:14.:00:19.

Minister is chuntering from the front benches. It has been a welcome

:00:20.:00:23.

but extraordinary turn of events in this House when after having been

:00:24.:00:28.

asked by the side of the House and indeed by people interesting in the

:00:29.:00:33.

housing sector and the social rented sector, on hundreds of occasions in

:00:34.:00:37.

recent months, that you do if you did today, the minister and round

:00:38.:00:40.

and said he agreed with us. That we should address this equally unfair

:00:41.:00:45.

issue on the 1% cut in social housing rents. This is just part of

:00:46.:00:51.

the problem that the social supported housing sector faces. He

:00:52.:00:58.

is welcome, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Minister without much good

:00:59.:01:01.

grace, I thought, conceded that there should be a delay. It is

:01:02.:01:06.

extraordinary that his Government has been looking into this policy

:01:07.:01:11.

not, I have to say, just since 2014, but it is for the Narraway since

:01:12.:01:16.

2011. Because it was 2011 that this Government for suggested that they

:01:17.:01:21.

ought to address this question of, in their view, high social rented

:01:22.:01:23.

costs versus local housing allowance. And five viewers later,

:01:24.:01:28.

they have not come to a conclusion as to what they will do. -- five

:01:29.:01:35.

years later. It is incompetence on in most gross scale. In the welfare

:01:36.:01:40.

and work committee, we lost count of the number of occasions when we were

:01:41.:01:44.

offered with excuses as to why that could not possibly be done and why

:01:45.:01:49.

this moratorium or, as we asked for, if the exemption, might not be

:01:50.:01:53.

affordable and allowed. In committee, I believe the word shroud

:01:54.:01:56.

waving was used on a number of occasions. We were also accused of

:01:57.:02:02.

jumping the gun with these measures, which were coming in for awhile and

:02:03.:02:05.

there was plenty of time for the Government to get papers in order

:02:06.:02:08.

and the policy right. I will give way. He makes a very eloquent case.

:02:09.:02:19.

Can he explain to the House why, in benign economic times, his own

:02:20.:02:23.

Government, when in power, did not deliver tax breaks to encourage

:02:24.:02:26.

extra care facilities and other specialist housing facilities to be

:02:27.:02:31.

developed? They stood still. Why was that? There was plenty of money

:02:32.:02:33.

coming in and he had the opportunity to do so. Let me be very clear, the

:02:34.:02:39.

National Audit Office has concluded that under the last Government, Tory

:02:40.:02:45.

and Liberal Government. There was a 45% reduction in the amount of

:02:46.:02:49.

funding for the housing sector. That is the reality for this Government.

:02:50.:02:55.

The further reality... We have not been in power for six years. There

:02:56.:02:59.

is only so long he can keep waving that particular shroud at me. The

:03:00.:03:04.

key point is, under his Government, 40% cut. With his Government, we

:03:05.:03:09.

face the prospect of the end of supported housing in this country

:03:10.:03:14.

unless there is a change of course from his Government. There has also

:03:15.:03:18.

been a lot of misunderstanding on the benches opposite as to what

:03:19.:03:22.

we're talking about today. I do not know whether they read the brief

:03:23.:03:25.

from the whips or they do not tell them the truth, but there are two

:03:26.:03:29.

measures being debated. The first is the one on which there is a one-year

:03:30.:03:35.

stay of execution. The cut by 1% of social housing residence. But the

:03:36.:03:40.

second and were important, which the Minister did not address, despite

:03:41.:03:45.

the questions from my right honourable friend, is the issue of

:03:46.:03:48.

the realisation of the amount of housing benefit available to those

:03:49.:03:52.

in social, rented accommodation with local housing allowances. That is

:03:53.:03:57.

the biggest, most substantial change that the Government is proposing to

:03:58.:04:01.

make. The honourable member previously said that this change has

:04:02.:04:05.

not been made and it is not happening. She should read her

:04:06.:04:09.

Government's statements. I will read to from the budget from last autumn.

:04:10.:04:19.

It said clearly that the Government will cap the amount of rent housing

:04:20.:04:22.

benefit will cover in the social sector to the relevant local housing

:04:23.:04:26.

allowance. I will give way in one minute. This will apply to tenancies

:04:27.:04:33.

signed after April 20 16. I my maths, that is in a couple of

:04:34.:04:38.

months. With housing benefit entitlements changing right across

:04:39.:04:43.

the board from April 20 18. This is not shroud waving jumping the gun.

:04:44.:04:47.

It is the opposition trying the attention to the House and it would

:04:48.:04:52.

seem members opposite a measure that will impact on their constituents in

:04:53.:04:58.

just a few months. I give way. I think the member opposite is

:04:59.:05:01.

misleading. The motion before us is about supported housing. That is

:05:02.:05:05.

talking about general needs housing benefit and there is a difference.

:05:06.:05:09.

There is no change in legislation. It is up for an extensive review

:05:10.:05:12.

about supported housing and housing benefit and there is a difference. I

:05:13.:05:15.

am sorry if the member opposite does not appreciate that. Mr Deputy

:05:16.:05:20.

Speaker, I am unusually lost for words in this place. Because it is

:05:21.:05:28.

extraordinary that the honourable member for Lewes does not understand

:05:29.:05:35.

what you're talking about. Supported housing is captured under the aegis

:05:36.:05:39.

of what we are talking. It is in the envelope of social housing. I will

:05:40.:05:42.

not give way to her any longer. There is no point. I will give way

:05:43.:05:47.

to the Minister if you would like to tell us what he's going to do about

:05:48.:05:48.

local housing allowance. I honourable gentleman in making his

:05:49.:05:54.

speech, he manages to brush over the fact that his honourable colleague

:05:55.:05:58.

who spoke earlier was a minister involved in bringing in the spare

:05:59.:06:02.

room subsidy initially. Maybe he can confronted says that the Labour

:06:03.:06:06.

government, the affordable housing programme we have got has delivered

:06:07.:06:11.

6% more supported homes per year than the Labour equivalent did

:06:12.:06:16.

before. It is quite adjusting the minister did not write to the rescue

:06:17.:06:20.

of his honourable friend because he knows she doesn't know what she is

:06:21.:06:23.

talking about. The truth is she could also have a further look... At

:06:24.:06:29.

the budget book produced by the government for the same spending

:06:30.:06:36.

review which scores quite clearly ?515 million is the saving that is

:06:37.:06:40.

anticipated from these cuts. The ISS goes further and says by the time

:06:41.:06:44.

they are fully unfermented it might be ?1.1 billion. The largest part of

:06:45.:06:52.

that is the change equalising housing benefit with local housing

:06:53.:06:56.

allowance, not the one state of execution you have seen today, now I

:06:57.:07:00.

have explained it, if she wants to come back I would be grateful. I am

:07:01.:07:04.

even more worried that he doesn't understand the difference that

:07:05.:07:08.

supported housing and housing allowance is much higher than the

:07:09.:07:12.

ordinary general needs housing benefit allowance and members

:07:13.:07:18.

opposite brought this debate to the chamber and B are supposed to be

:07:19.:07:23.

debating supported housing, not general needs housing, I'm shot the

:07:24.:07:26.

shadow minister doesn't understand the difference. -- I'm shocked. I

:07:27.:07:33.

have made the point Mr Deputy Speaker about general social housing

:07:34.:07:39.

and supported housing and that is absolutely clear. The other thing

:07:40.:07:44.

that is clear because ministers admitted that at the dispatch box is

:07:45.:07:48.

that she is right, supported housing does cost more money because it is

:07:49.:07:52.

bespoke and looking at the people with our example complex artistic

:07:53.:07:57.

needs or physical disabilities -- complex autistic. They cost more

:07:58.:08:06.

money to look after those people because of in-house concierge and

:08:07.:08:09.

all sorts of other things and that is why it is so wrong for the

:08:10.:08:12.

government to equalise the amount of housing benefit that they can get

:08:13.:08:18.

with local housing allowances available for the private rented

:08:19.:08:21.

sector. That is the issue we are discussing. It is not as who have

:08:22.:08:27.

raised this initially, it is the sector who have come to us and to

:08:28.:08:32.

ministers opposite on many occasions, I will quote a few. And

:08:33.:08:38.

Redford, chief Executive of the specialist housing association

:08:39.:08:40.

framework said this will mean the end of supported housing, all of our

:08:41.:08:45.

schemes will cause. All other as well as well. That seems to me to be

:08:46.:08:49.

fairly straightforward, I will give you a few more. Many other confirmed

:08:50.:08:57.

their schemes would be unviable if the cut went ahead. Ambaka 's

:08:58.:09:04.

horizon that I believe have 119 such supported housing bodies across

:09:05.:09:07.

London have confirmed it will have to close supported housing in London

:09:08.:09:14.

and elsewhere if these changes go ahead. Charlotte Norman of Saint

:09:15.:09:20.

Vincent housing says we cannot believe that government understands

:09:21.:09:24.

the consequences of these changes and the first extra costs that will

:09:25.:09:29.

fall into the public purse as a result of scheme closures. Nothing

:09:30.:09:33.

short of exemption for all such housing will be adequate and we very

:09:34.:09:38.

much hope that common sense will prevail. On this side of the house

:09:39.:09:44.

we sure a lot of common-sense from the members from Glasgow South West

:09:45.:09:48.

and the honourable member for Sheffield South East who is chairman

:09:49.:09:52.

of the select committee who asked the central question, what will

:09:53.:09:57.

happen to the equalisation with housing benefit that the Minister

:09:58.:10:00.

failed to mention, is that going to be exempted for supported housing

:10:01.:10:06.

associations, for specified housing and let me ask a further question

:10:07.:10:09.

that the Minister Phil to answer and his colleague might in a moment,

:10:10.:10:13.

will the wrens, if they do go up next year and not be cut by 1% go up

:10:14.:10:18.

in line with the formula as they would have done ordinarily or are

:10:19.:10:21.

they to be frozen, I would be grateful if the Minister could

:10:22.:10:27.

answer. The member for Southampton raised the issue of the Society of

:10:28.:10:31.

Saint James who helped 2000 people and will lose ?1 million. Members

:10:32.:10:35.

format of old Bolton South East raised personal experience, their

:10:36.:10:40.

deep knowledge of what it will mean for their constituents, the member

:10:41.:10:43.

for Birmingham Yardley spoke with particular expertise about her

:10:44.:10:47.

experience of running a women's refuge and explain how these changes

:10:48.:10:52.

would shut down that refuge and beg ministers to listen to her and to

:10:53.:10:58.

listen to the Home Secretary as to the value of those women's refuges

:10:59.:11:02.

and the damage that will be done to them. The members for brutal and

:11:03.:11:07.

Cambridge spoke as well. On the opposite side, members were

:11:08.:11:11.

sanguine. On the opposite side members dissembled. On the opposite

:11:12.:11:14.

side the members had the choice as to what the going to do to date, are

:11:15.:11:21.

they going to agree that nothing short of exemption on specialised

:11:22.:11:25.

supported housing is required in order to safeguard the most

:11:26.:11:30.

vulnerable of our communities. What we have heard today is welcome but

:11:31.:11:33.

insufficient and will become back to the dispatch box and agree with me

:11:34.:11:37.

that now was the time to admit they got it wrong and as they have done

:11:38.:11:39.

so many times this week, reverse ferret.

:11:40.:11:46.

This has been a very powerful and important debate and we have been

:11:47.:11:52.

listening to the arguments on both sides, very important points raised

:11:53.:11:55.

and a number of questions have been asked and I will do my best to cover

:11:56.:12:01.

as many of those as I can. Our welfare reform is about bringing

:12:02.:12:05.

wide-ranging reforms to the welfare system and bringing the budget back

:12:06.:12:08.

under control after years of overspending by Labour. My

:12:09.:12:14.

honourable friend for Peterborough where very eloquent in setting out

:12:15.:12:18.

the importance of this and our reforms are bringing fairness for

:12:19.:12:22.

hard-working taxpayers are making work pay and making welfare system

:12:23.:12:27.

and for the future. Protecting the most vulnerable, this is the key

:12:28.:12:31.

part to this debate today and as we progress with these important and

:12:32.:12:35.

necessary reforms we have stuck to our principle of protecting the most

:12:36.:12:39.

vulnerable. As Minister for disabled people the principle is particularly

:12:40.:12:43.

important to me and I know how important the right housing is for

:12:44.:12:46.

an individual's needs and I am proud of our record on helping those that

:12:47.:12:50.

need the most bought and I want to remind the house that on this record

:12:51.:12:55.

we have spent around ?50 billion every year on benefits alone to

:12:56.:12:57.

support people with disabilities or health conditions and spending will

:12:58.:13:03.

be higher in every year until 2020 than in 2010. We are spending ?400

:13:04.:13:07.

million to deliver 8000 specialist homes for the vulnerable, elderly or

:13:08.:13:12.

those with disabilities and funding for the disabled facilities grant

:13:13.:13:16.

which funds around 40,000 adaptions per year is due to increased by

:13:17.:13:22.

nearly 80% next year. We are providing ?870 billion of support --

:13:23.:13:28.

?870 million the discretionary housing payments in the next five

:13:29.:13:30.

years to help those who need support and the Department of health is

:13:31.:13:36.

committed to funding 7500 by the specialist homes for disabled and

:13:37.:13:39.

older people. We are also providing support to other vulnerable groups

:13:40.:13:43.

of ?40 million for victims of domestic abuse, which is a tripling

:13:44.:13:47.

of the support, you sure nobody is turned away from the support they

:13:48.:13:50.

need and it is a tribute to the honourable member for Birmingham

:13:51.:13:55.

Yardley, who does focus the house on the absolute importance of the

:13:56.:13:58.

services they provide, putting a real realism into that. I understand

:13:59.:14:02.

it, I have done a lot of work with women's aid in the last Parliament

:14:03.:14:06.

and I would pay tribute to my own Swindon's women's refuge. They

:14:07.:14:09.

cannot boast about what they do, it is behind closed doors but the

:14:10.:14:13.

honourable member has really focused minds and it is important to do.

:14:14.:14:18.

More than ?500 million has been spent since 2010 to tackle

:14:19.:14:22.

homelessness preventing almost 1 million households from becoming

:14:23.:14:25.

homeless since 2010. Turning to supported housing, it is a tribute

:14:26.:14:30.

to my honourable friend for Lewis and the honourable member for Mika

:14:31.:14:34.

field to set out that their real life experience, some of the

:14:35.:14:40.

challenges and opportunities in this area. One supported housing will

:14:41.:14:43.

recognise the value of supported housing sector, we want to ensure

:14:44.:14:47.

that the essential services they deliver continued to be provided

:14:48.:14:49.

within the context of driving appropriate value for money. Many

:14:50.:14:54.

members have put that on record and has woken about that support. Very

:14:55.:15:00.

powerful, very important that was done. We want to make sure the

:15:01.:15:04.

sector can continue to deliver important services and that is why

:15:05.:15:09.

we will be putting in place a one-year exemption from all

:15:10.:15:13.

supported accommodation and 1% rent reduction and I believe this will

:15:14.:15:16.

give us time to study the evidence from supported housing review which

:15:17.:15:21.

is due to report in the spring and consider the longer term solution

:15:22.:15:25.

for the supported sector. The honourable member for Sheffield

:15:26.:15:27.

South East as the number of questions and one of them was what

:15:28.:15:31.

happens to rents in supported housing for next years during the

:15:32.:15:38.

one-year delay and they will be in CPI plus 1% and reviewed after that.

:15:39.:15:44.

In terms of the review itself, it will tell us the size, scale and

:15:45.:15:50.

scope of supported housing, the policy options will be considered

:15:51.:15:53.

after the port is published in consultation with a wide range of

:15:54.:15:56.

stakeholders and the conclusions will be reached in June course as

:15:57.:16:04.

that is brought. I am reassured by what he says, will he ensure that

:16:05.:16:08.

both the Treasury and NHS England are involved in this issue because

:16:09.:16:13.

it is potent that there is proper coordination between acute hospital

:16:14.:16:16.

care and social care as we go into the future with the demographic

:16:17.:16:21.

issues we are currently facing. I thank my honourable friend for that

:16:22.:16:24.

intervention and we all accept in this says that this issue is far

:16:25.:16:28.

wider and we must look at that including all of that in the

:16:29.:16:31.

consultation. The honourable friend for certain rubble has asked me to

:16:32.:16:37.

take on board the comments on the housing bill and the honourable

:16:38.:16:43.

member from Cambridge highlighted YMCA, an important organisation and

:16:44.:16:47.

I'm pleased that the YMCA England chief executive has tweeted that it

:16:48.:16:52.

is a positive that that government has listened to the concerns of the

:16:53.:16:55.

sector and taken appropriate action to protect supported housing. If the

:16:56.:17:02.

house is to take him at his word that he wants the evidence from the

:17:03.:17:06.

review and then a consultation in order to make the policy decisions,

:17:07.:17:09.

will he therefore put back and have a moratorium on the application of

:17:10.:17:17.

the L H a benefit cut just like he is proposing to do with the rent

:17:18.:17:22.

cut, so the new tenancies from April this year will not be affected in

:17:23.:17:25.

the way that the Chancellor announced? New tenants come into

:17:26.:17:38.

effect in 2016. The 1% delay is just for the supported housing, so I'm

:17:39.:17:43.

afraid I cannot give a commitment to that. On the LH cap, it comes in

:17:44.:17:53.

2018. The question is, will the Minister do further changes in

:17:54.:17:56.

housing benefit related to LH just for supported housing from April

:17:57.:18:01.

this year, so doesn't apply for new tenancies until the review has been

:18:02.:18:05.

completed. ? Those changes will not come into effect, we will look at

:18:06.:18:11.

the review and I can assure members that the DWP will also be working

:18:12.:18:17.

closely to make sure the appropriate protections are in place for those

:18:18.:18:24.

supported housing as we go forward. Those changes do come into effect

:18:25.:18:28.

for new tenancies in supported housing from April this year, will

:18:29.:18:34.

the Minister defers those changes? For those in supported housing, they

:18:35.:18:39.

will... We are delaying that for a year. The rationale for changes in

:18:40.:18:46.

the social rented sector, we sit to our principles of protecting the

:18:47.:18:48.

most vulnerable but these are important reforms, we inherited a

:18:49.:18:53.

burgeoning housing benefit still and we had to get control of it. It

:18:54.:18:57.

started to do that but we have to go further. The housing benefit bill

:18:58.:19:01.

for England has risen by over 20% during the last ten years, point

:19:02.:19:05.

raised by my honourable friend. Part of the reason is that the rises in

:19:06.:19:09.

social rents have outstripped those in the private sector, highlighted

:19:10.:19:13.

by my friend from first and Malton. Social rents are up 60% compared to

:19:14.:19:18.

23% in the private sector. In the private sector the local housing

:19:19.:19:24.

allowance kerbs but there are no similar things in the social sector

:19:25.:19:27.

and that is why the wool cap social sector runs in the same way as the

:19:28.:19:30.

private sector and reduced rents in the social sector for that this will

:19:31.:19:34.

help the one third of those who don't claim any housing benefit in

:19:35.:19:37.

this sector who would see their rents come down. We will continue to

:19:38.:19:43.

protect the most vulnerable. Our wider housing reforms are just part

:19:44.:19:47.

of our ways to improve access, creating more choice and building

:19:48.:19:51.

more affordable homes and we are doubling the housing budget to more

:19:52.:19:53.

than ?20 billion in the next five-year to help ensure housing is

:19:54.:19:57.

prioritised for those who need it most. I believe sought social,

:19:58.:20:04.

affordable rented homes fell by 400000 and under the Conservative

:20:05.:20:07.

government, 700,000 new homes have been built in the past five years of

:20:08.:20:12.

which 270,000 have been affordable and we have broadened the

:20:13.:20:15.

opportunities to access housing to help to buy, right to buy and the 8

:20:16.:20:21.

billion bound commitment to deliver 400,000 more homes starts. This

:20:22.:20:25.

governor that tackling the chronic undersupply and access to housing,

:20:26.:20:28.

something the party opposite field to do. In conclusion, we will not

:20:29.:20:33.

fall into the trap of Labour's blank cheque approach and try to pay the

:20:34.:20:38.

way of problems without any reform to welfare, reforms bring fairness

:20:39.:20:41.

for hard-working taxpayers and making the welfare budget more

:20:42.:20:44.

sustainable for the future on doing this while providing the right

:20:45.:20:46.

protection for the most honourable in society.

:20:47.:20:52.

The question is as on the order paper. Division, clear the lobbies!

:20:53.:21:36.

Are you ready, folks? Yes, we are. Order, order. The question is as on

:21:37.:21:41.

the order paper. Order! Order! The ayes to the right,

:21:42.:29:03.

239. The nose to the left, 286. The ayes to the right, 239. The node

:29:04.:33:36.

to the left, 286. The nos habit. -- have it.

:33:37.:33:42.

We now come to the motion... We now come to the motion in the name of

:33:43.:33:54.

the Leader of the Opposition on prisons and probation. I'd call Andy

:33:55.:34:00.

Slaughter to move the motion. I beg to move the motion in my name and

:34:01.:34:05.

the names of my honourable friends. Prison and probation staff have some

:34:06.:34:10.

of the toughest jobs in the country. With few exceptions, they work with

:34:11.:34:15.

industry, compassion and resolution to protect the public and to help

:34:16.:34:19.

change lives through rehabilitation, all of us in this house over them

:34:20.:34:26.

our gratitude. In six years in the shadow justice team and also as MP

:34:27.:34:32.

for one of Britain's most iconic presence, Wormwood Scrubs, and in

:34:33.:34:37.

the past as a criminal barrister I have no -- visited many prisons. I

:34:38.:34:43.

have spoken to them and their representatives to whom I also pay

:34:44.:34:46.

to be. The conclusion is that the prison and the term includes the

:34:47.:34:53.

youth and adult estate, is not working contrary to the famous

:34:54.:34:58.

pronouncement of the noble Lord Lord Howard. From his statements as

:34:59.:35:01.

bitter so far, the Lord Chancellor may agree, the question today is

:35:02.:35:06.

what are he and his government going to do about it. It is the view of

:35:07.:35:10.

many in his party that prison isn't working. We have waited some time

:35:11.:35:14.

for a Parliamentary debate on the crisis in the prisons, this with a

:35:15.:35:18.

fourth in a week. I hope it is a reflection of the new priority we

:35:19.:35:25.

are giving to this issue. It would be... I am grateful, when I was in

:35:26.:35:36.

his position as Shadow prisons minister ten years ago, I could have

:35:37.:35:39.

put down a motion in the name of the official opposition in exactly the

:35:40.:35:46.

same terms as the first lines of his motion. Why didn't he do something

:35:47.:35:52.

about it then? I take the intervention in the spirit it is

:35:53.:35:57.

meant but I hope we are not going to have a war of who did what and when

:35:58.:36:03.

because as he will see when I go on it is not the last ten years, it is

:36:04.:36:07.

the last 50 years we are talking about. I want to make a special

:36:08.:36:12.

mention of the debate on prison reform in the other place on the

:36:13.:36:15.

21st January in the name of the noble lord, Lord Falmer lest the

:36:16.:36:22.

Lord Chancellor take exception to the wording that UK prisons are in

:36:23.:36:26.

crisis, he ended his excellent speech with these words, in 1970, we

:36:27.:36:31.

faced a prisons crisis, today we face a prison scandal. Every speech

:36:32.:36:36.

in a debate was superb, I hope this house can live up to those high

:36:37.:36:38.

standards today. The Minister said that he had no

:36:39.:36:49.

difficulty in supporting any of them. I assume the same could be

:36:50.:36:54.

said for the Lord Chancellor. The five points are deprivation of

:36:55.:36:59.

liberty but not to make life as uncomfortable as possible, and

:37:00.:37:01.

overcrowding, reduce the number of people sent to prison, do so by

:37:02.:37:06.

re-examining sentencing and past responsibility to the government and

:37:07.:37:11.

staff. The Chancellor spoke approvingly of these points. Does he

:37:12.:37:15.

agree with Lord Fowler and has Minister on the other four points,

:37:16.:37:19.

more importantly, if he does, how does he set out to accomplish them?

:37:20.:37:24.

It is not a trick question. Adults know if the best -- I don't know

:37:25.:37:29.

what mood the Chancellor is in today. He has set some reviews in

:37:30.:37:37.

progress, but what action does the government intends to take? I would

:37:38.:37:41.

like for him to add some substance to the rhetoric today. I will do so

:37:42.:37:47.

by setting out the scale of the task before him. In the 12 months up to a

:37:48.:37:56.

September 2015, there were many deaths in prison custody, 95

:37:57.:38:01.

suicides, up from 60 on the same period in 2010, 153 from natural

:38:02.:38:06.

causes up from 123, and seven homicides. There have been the same

:38:07.:38:09.

number of homicides in prisons in the last two years as in the

:38:10.:38:16.

receiving eight. In the 12 months to June 2015, there are 2281 reported

:38:17.:38:23.

incidence of self harm, up from 21% in just a year. There were 4156

:38:24.:38:30.

assaults on staff, 26 -- 20% rise from the year before. There were 578

:38:31.:38:36.

serious assaults on staff, a rise of 42% from the year before. And

:38:37.:38:42.

tragically, a prison officer, Lorraine Barwell, in the first such

:38:43.:38:46.

incident of its type in the quarter of a century, died in July of last

:38:47.:38:49.

year after being the victim of an attack in the line of duty one month

:38:50.:38:54.

earlier. We owe it to her and her family to make sure that her

:38:55.:38:58.

colleagues are as safe as possible. I will give way. I am very grateful

:38:59.:39:03.

to my honourable friend. He started off by setting out some quite

:39:04.:39:07.

staggering and frankly appalling statistics on the numbers of

:39:08.:39:11.

prisoners who have suddenly taken their own lives or who are self

:39:12.:39:16.

harming. Does this not underlined the very real problems of mental

:39:17.:39:23.

health in prisons, and what more does he think the government should

:39:24.:39:27.

be doing to tackle this very serious problem of mental ill health amongst

:39:28.:39:32.

the prisoner population? I know my honourable friend speaks from a

:39:33.:39:35.

position of knowledge on the subject and he is quite right and I am

:39:36.:39:38.

coming to that very issue in a moment. The prison riot squad was

:39:39.:39:46.

called out 343 times last year, once a day on average, compared to a 223

:39:47.:39:50.

times the year before and 118 times in 2010. Mobile phones, drugs, legal

:39:51.:39:58.

highs, the list of what you can smuggle into prison at the moment is

:39:59.:40:04.

elastic. According to one prisoner, at a prison the previous Lord

:40:05.:40:07.

Chancellor called an excellent model for the future, it was easier to get

:40:08.:40:12.

drugs they are and to get soap, so there are some restrictions. Earlier

:40:13.:40:16.

this month, seven officers reported suffering ill effects from

:40:17.:40:19.

inadvertently inhaling legal highs. You could not make that up. It would

:40:20.:40:28.

be remiss at this point took place on the record that the side effects

:40:29.:40:37.

of thousands is Bill made possessions a criminal offence, and

:40:38.:40:42.

they think he welcomes that. -- and I think he welcomed that. The issue

:40:43.:40:45.

we are dealing with here is smuggling contraband into prison.

:40:46.:40:53.

There is also an increasing number of drones being used. Figures

:40:54.:40:56.

released on Monday by the presence Minister showed it 25% of prisoners

:40:57.:41:01.

are in ever crowded cells, and this rises to over 80% in some presence.

:41:02.:41:08.

It is sometimes exacerbated by a extremely poor environments and

:41:09.:41:12.

squalid conditions. This had one member of staff saying that he would

:41:13.:41:19.

not keep a dog in wormwood scrubs. In the last 25 years, the prison

:41:20.:41:27.

population has almost doubled. It is projected to increase to 90,000 by

:41:28.:41:31.

2020. Staff are already struggling following cuts on an unprecedented

:41:32.:41:40.

scale. 9760 fewer operational prison staff and in 2010, nearly 5,000

:41:41.:41:46.

fewer prison officers since 2010, 250 prison governors resigned or

:41:47.:41:51.

moved jobs in the last five years. An education, the prisoner education

:41:52.:41:53.

trust reports that prisoners tell them they had to choose between

:41:54.:41:57.

going to the library and going to the shower because of the lack of

:41:58.:42:02.

staff to escort them. Nearly half of prisoners report having no

:42:03.:42:05.

qualifications and 22% of prisoners say they have been permanently

:42:06.:42:09.

excluded from school. The Lord Chancellor appointed someone to

:42:10.:42:17.

behead a prisoner education. Perhaps he can hear about -- to head

:42:18.:42:25.

prisoner education. 60% of prisoners who took their own last last year

:42:26.:42:31.

were not receiving assistance under proper processes, which are supposed

:42:32.:42:34.

to identify those prisoners who are at a heightened risk of suicide or

:42:35.:42:39.

self harm. I will give way. Thank you for giving way. I have a

:42:40.:42:44.

constituency that has two prisons. There is one privately run facility

:42:45.:42:52.

and then another one, and but have been inspected, and in both

:42:53.:42:54.

inspections, there was understaffing. Does he think that

:42:55.:42:59.

some of the issues he is identifying are due to staffing numbers in

:43:00.:43:04.

prisons being at their lowest in living memory? I think cuts in staff

:43:05.:43:10.

are at the heart of some of the problems being identified. There are

:43:11.:43:17.

restrictions on work and education and association, and this is leading

:43:18.:43:19.

to increased violence and to increase the poor behaviour in

:43:20.:43:24.

prisons and it is a very short-sighted development which I

:43:25.:43:27.

think the government realises perhaps too late. Turning to

:43:28.:43:33.

probation and reoffending, figures have revealed that almost one in ten

:43:34.:43:37.

offenders are convicted of an offence within 18 days of release.

:43:38.:43:42.

The probation and sectors report on the limitation of transforming

:43:43.:43:44.

rehabilitation has been published on the 15th of January. It highlighted

:43:45.:43:49.

the disparity in performance between the national probation service,

:43:50.:43:55.

which is -- and the 21, the privation companies managed by

:43:56.:44:04.

private providers. For the MPs, the figure was less than one fifth of

:44:05.:44:09.

the bond child protection, safeguarding on home visits,...

:44:10.:44:15.

Earlier this month, the Lord Chancellor stopped publishing

:44:16.:44:22.

figures on this. There were hundreds of experience probation staff being

:44:23.:44:26.

laid off across the country to promote the bottom line. Let me turn

:44:27.:44:33.

to the youth estate, and particularly the role of G4S. We

:44:34.:44:42.

welcome the fact that some prisons have been pets into special

:44:43.:44:48.

measures. -- have been put. By also would like -- I also would like...

:44:49.:44:57.

There looks to be a part failure by G4S. I have written to the Serious

:44:58.:45:05.

Fraud Office to ask they investigate allegations that his incidences of

:45:06.:45:08.

disorder were concealed to avoid G4S avoiding fines on its contract.

:45:09.:45:14.

There is an ongoing investigation going into the tagging contracts for

:45:15.:45:19.

financial gain. G4S has a truly dismal record of managing public

:45:20.:45:26.

contracts here and abroad. At one prison, six staff were dismissed and

:45:27.:45:30.

the contract terminated this September, following an inspection

:45:31.:45:33.

support that said some staff were on drugs while on duty and behaved

:45:34.:45:38.

extremely appropriately with young people. The company taking over the

:45:39.:45:44.

contract is not in this country because they are in origin the US

:45:45.:45:50.

prison firm and as such they have resided over a write in an Arizona

:45:51.:45:55.

State prison and run eight usability in Mississippi which a judge

:45:56.:46:00.

described as periodic mayhem and staffing an attitude which Leeds to

:46:01.:46:06.

perpetual danger to inmates and staff.

:46:07.:46:11.

Some of the directors helped set up Abreu. In Baghdad. There has been an

:46:12.:46:27.

inquiry called for comment -- there has been an inquiry called into

:46:28.:46:33.

this. Thank you for giving way. On the Justice Committee, we

:46:34.:46:36.

interviewed the chief inspector and found his answers on ministerial

:46:37.:46:40.

interference were very interesting. As he agree with me that, to the

:46:41.:46:45.

outside world, the fact that this contract is not being renewed makes

:46:46.:46:48.

it looks like he was doing an effective job in helping the

:46:49.:46:55.

Ministry of Justice to account? -- girl holding. My honourable friend

:46:56.:47:02.

makes an actually good points. If the Lord Chancellor is a prison

:47:03.:47:08.

reformer, we are prepared to work with him. He could start with a

:47:09.:47:14.

Prison Reform Trust report on correction care that looks at

:47:15.:47:18.

successful models around the world. Successful prisons are becoming

:47:19.:47:23.

smaller, more focused and more rooted locally, which is why the

:47:24.:47:26.

Lord Chancellor was right to abandon plans for his predecessors newborn

:47:27.:47:36.

still. We are it is -- new or stove. If the consequence is that prisons

:47:37.:47:39.

are built a long way from friends and family or we move from local

:47:40.:47:45.

prisons to Titans prisons, that is its own drawbacks. We need prison

:47:46.:47:49.

watchdogs with Realty and real independence. The outgoing inspector

:47:50.:47:55.

has done a great job in spite not because of the government. To take

:47:56.:48:00.

my honourable friend's point, the report last week that the MO J have

:48:01.:48:04.

tried to control or Muslim were outrageous. -- or muscle pain.

:48:05.:48:12.

Let's use this opportunity to shake things up. We need a stronger, more

:48:13.:48:22.

independent inspectorate, able to produce reports with total

:48:23.:48:24.

independence from the Ministry of Justice and conduct more frequent

:48:25.:48:34.

and unannounced inspections. He paints a very bleak picture, and of

:48:35.:48:39.

course, we must always do more, but does he accept that in a recent

:48:40.:48:43.

chief inspector import, it was stated that the condition for

:48:44.:48:46.

outcomes for women has impaired and the number of children in custody

:48:47.:48:53.

has gone down? I accept what the honourable lady has said. I am

:48:54.:48:56.

painting a realistic picture because I think that needs to be the

:48:57.:48:58.

starting point for the improvement and I think members on both sides

:48:59.:49:06.

would agree. The decline in youth custody is extremely impressive. It

:49:07.:49:10.

has happened under successive governments and has gone down from a

:49:11.:49:15.

figure of over 3000 to under 1000 now, but we are concerned about the

:49:16.:49:18.

conditions and treatment of those young people who are still in

:49:19.:49:23.

custody and the type of facility they are in, and the incidences we

:49:24.:49:27.

have seen at Midway and elsewhere are an example of the fact that

:49:28.:49:31.

things are failing in that sector as much as they are elsewhere. As my

:49:32.:49:37.

honourable friend of the Member for Darlington said, too often, in

:49:38.:49:43.

response to prison reports, too often we see the response to a poor

:49:44.:49:48.

inspection report centre on the appointment of a new governor or the

:49:49.:49:53.

assertion that things have improved dramatically since the poor

:49:54.:49:56.

inspection took place. It is time we put much greater effort into

:49:57.:49:59.

preventing people getting involved in crime in the first place. A

:50:00.:50:03.

renewed focus on education and stepping into the rock young people

:50:04.:50:10.

from a life of crime, we must do better for trans people in our

:50:11.:50:14.

system. The dying for Justice report by the Institute of race relations

:50:15.:50:21.

and the Harris review both reveal a lapse -- both reveal over

:50:22.:50:27.

representations in some sectors. Yesterday I spoke at a meeting here

:50:28.:50:31.

about the discriminatory effects of enterprise charges on certain

:50:32.:50:35.

individuals and groups and asked the Lord Chancellor to investigate that

:50:36.:50:40.

area of law as his predecessor failed to do. In light of the number

:50:41.:50:45.

of people who wish to speak, I am going to terminate my remarks here,

:50:46.:50:50.

but let me do so by saying I welcome the change in tone on prisons since

:50:51.:50:54.

the Lord Chancellor's appointment, but so far, that is about all it is.

:50:55.:51:00.

It is possible to be tough on crime, to put the protection of the public

:51:01.:51:07.

first, as well as rehabilitation, but it is also true, that the agree

:51:08.:51:17.

of civilization and society can be judged by entering its prisons. It

:51:18.:51:23.

is in the self interest of every prison that prisoners having served

:51:24.:51:26.

their time become productive members of society and do not continue to

:51:27.:51:31.

pose a risk through reoffending. The Lord Chancellor may not be a muesli

:51:32.:51:37.

muncher, as he put it yesterday, but he is the Minister for porridge, and

:51:38.:51:40.

it is about time he served up something substantial.

:51:41.:51:51.

Secretary of State for justice. The question is as on the order paper.

:51:52.:52:05.

Thank you, can I congratulate... Coming from Aberdeen, porridge is

:52:06.:52:08.

not necessarily something we consider an attractive! The member

:52:09.:52:15.

from Shipley may be relieved to hear. Firstly, I congratulate the

:52:16.:52:21.

member for Hammersmith on securing this debate and I can thank him for

:52:22.:52:26.

the serious way he laid up the scale of the challenge which raises my

:52:27.:52:30.

department and all of us in the house. He drew attention to the

:52:31.:52:36.

fourth debate on this and he was absently right to draw attention to

:52:37.:52:39.

the excellent debate the House of Lords had last week. It was a debate

:52:40.:52:45.

on emotion initiated by Lord Fowler, a former Conservative Cabinet

:52:46.:52:50.

minister and it's striking how many colleagues are here today. It's

:52:51.:52:54.

important that across the house we recognise the cause of prison reform

:52:55.:52:58.

is one that is shared by people from every party and should be Ricardo --

:52:59.:53:04.

regarded as the province of any particular organisation. Can I also,

:53:05.:53:09.

in thanking them, draw attention to the fact both the member for

:53:10.:53:13.

Hammersmith and most speakers in the House of Lords also took the

:53:14.:53:17.

opportunity in the time allowed to thank those who work in our prisons.

:53:18.:53:22.

It is important we all place on the record come if we have time, that we

:53:23.:53:30.

all place our gratitude for the carriage and arduous nests of those

:53:31.:53:33.

who work in a prisons, not just prison officers but teachers and

:53:34.:53:37.

others and I will give way in a second. I had the opportunity to

:53:38.:53:42.

visit Manchester prison, Strangeways as it used to be known with my

:53:43.:53:47.

colleague and I talked to a young man who worked in the segregation

:53:48.:53:51.

unit and I asked why he chose to work with these offenders and he

:53:52.:53:55.

explained that he came from a part of the city particularly affected by

:53:56.:54:01.

crime. He wanted to do something in his own career and profession to

:54:02.:54:05.

help make his community safer. The reason he chose to work there was

:54:06.:54:11.

because he believes the relationships he could form there

:54:12.:54:14.

might be able to change their lives for the better. And to make his

:54:15.:54:20.

community safer. That idealism is typical of those who work in the

:54:21.:54:24.

prisons and reinforces an essential point, the quality of the

:54:25.:54:26.

relationship between those who work in the prisons and those for whom

:54:27.:54:32.

they care is not soft or in any way a retreat from public safety, it is

:54:33.:54:36.

critical to ensuring public safety. I give way. The minister may be

:54:37.:54:43.

aware that the number of attacks on our prison staff has increased by

:54:44.:54:50.

42%, these range from severe cuts to damages to internal organs and

:54:51.:54:54.

fractures as well. In order to keep people working in a prisons so hard

:54:55.:55:00.

as he outlines, witty order a review into looking at safety at work for

:55:01.:55:07.

prison staff? She makes a fair point, and I don't deny the scale of

:55:08.:55:13.

the problem outlined in the statistics she deployed or those

:55:14.:55:18.

others deploy and it is the case that the service is running a

:55:19.:55:22.

violent reduction programme studying why it is there has been this

:55:23.:55:25.

upsurge in violence, it is important to bear in mind there are some

:55:26.:55:29.

factors acknowledged by both sides that contribute to that, the pattern

:55:30.:55:33.

of offenders, those in prison contain more because of violent and

:55:34.:55:37.

other offences and it is also the case that the spread of new

:55:38.:55:43.

psychoactive substances, misleadingly called legal highs but

:55:44.:55:46.

they are lethal highs has contributed to a lack of

:55:47.:55:50.

self-control, psychosis increased mental health problems and violence.

:55:51.:55:54.

There are difficult choices to take to ensure we can limit the

:55:55.:55:59.

widespread availability of these drugs and keep people safe and I

:56:00.:56:04.

will discuss those in a moment. I want to stress that I do agree we

:56:05.:56:08.

face a problem, I do not use the word crisis and there would not like

:56:09.:56:13.

to use that word because I think it's potentially undermines the

:56:14.:56:15.

morale of those working in the prisons and secondly it might draw

:56:16.:56:21.

attention away to the incremental changes we need to make which can

:56:22.:56:27.

add up together to a significant programme of prison reform. If we

:56:28.:56:32.

allow ourselves to be panicked by headlines and to be scared into

:56:33.:56:37.

overreaction then we may not be able to pursue the solid incremental

:56:38.:56:43.

steps we need to take to improve the situation. I was struck by the fact

:56:44.:56:49.

the member for Liverpool Walton was concerned about numbers in the

:56:50.:56:53.

prisons and it is understandable that for those of us who do care

:56:54.:56:59.

about not just the safety of staff but the effectiveness of the prison

:57:00.:57:06.

regime, but I say in the last year there has been an increase of 500 in

:57:07.:57:11.

the number of prison officers and also there is no absolute

:57:12.:57:16.

correlation between the number of prison officers between the nature

:57:17.:57:20.

of the regime and instances of violence. I'm not denying that we

:57:21.:57:24.

need to ensure prisons are properly staffed and we need to keep prison

:57:25.:57:31.

officers safe but the nature of the security in prison is a consequence

:57:32.:57:38.

of a number of factors. I give way. He is right, not only should there

:57:39.:57:41.

be safe staffing levels but we have a duty of care to ensure there are

:57:42.:57:47.

safe staffing levels and it was the Inspector of prisons who identified

:57:48.:57:52.

the correlation between low staff numbers and the propensity for drugs

:57:53.:57:58.

on the prison estate. The honourable member is right to say that we do

:57:59.:58:02.

need to be vigilant about making sure we have not just the people in

:58:03.:58:06.

place but the training to support them to deal with the problem. The

:58:07.:58:09.

fact he mentions the Chief Inspector of prisons lets me repeat that I'm

:58:10.:58:15.

grateful to Nick Hardwick for the role he played, it is not

:58:16.:58:18.

comfortable reading for someone in my job to read his latest annual

:58:19.:58:22.

report but I would rather we had someone who told us the truth and

:58:23.:58:29.

insured we performed our duties as elected representatives and as

:58:30.:58:33.

ministers in the full knowledge of the truth than someone who felt that

:58:34.:58:38.

they had to varnish or edit the truth. While Nick Hardwick and I do

:58:39.:58:44.

not come from the same place on the ideological spectrum, it is because

:58:45.:58:49.

I am committed to using every talented voice and experienced pair

:58:50.:58:53.

of hands I can to improve the prison system but I'm delighted he accepted

:58:54.:58:57.

my invitation to chair the parole board. I also wanted to stress that

:58:58.:59:02.

while understandably in an opposition Day debate the member for

:59:03.:59:07.

Hammersmith will point the finger at some of the failings he alleges are

:59:08.:59:11.

unique to the Conservatives and it is understandable he will look at

:59:12.:59:16.

the trends that appeared to have worsened under a Conservative

:59:17.:59:23.

government, it is appropriate to recognise there were problems as my

:59:24.:59:27.

right honourable friend the member for Market Harborough announced and

:59:28.:59:32.

the labour as well. Reoffending, a real index of how effective our

:59:33.:59:37.

prisons are is broadly unchanged. I do not say that as a partisan point,

:59:38.:59:42.

I want to emphasise the difficulties all of space in improving the prison

:59:43.:59:50.

and probation service. In 2946% of those serving custodial sentences

:59:51.:59:54.

reoffended, the figure now is 45.1. If I wanted to make a partisan

:59:55.:59:58.

point, I would say it declined but the difference is insignificant. I

:59:59.:00:06.

think he is making an important point about reoffending and I wonder

:00:07.:00:11.

if he considered the suggestion I made about merging probation with

:00:12.:00:14.

the police so offender management outside the prison estate becomes

:00:15.:00:17.

the responsibility of the police who in the end are picking up the pieces

:00:18.:00:20.

and whether we might see a step change in the numbers he outlines if

:00:21.:00:26.

we made that move as well as a large financial saving. I thank him for

:00:27.:00:34.

the work he did as Deputy Mayor of London he was responsible for the

:00:35.:00:39.

Mayor office for crime and she contributed to the reduction in

:00:40.:00:45.

knife crime on the streets. Prisons and probation is cannot work

:00:46.:00:48.

effectively unless there is close working relationships with the

:00:49.:00:52.

police service. I do caution a change at this point of the kind he

:00:53.:00:57.

makes. It is a fascinating idea, it has been put to me by others whom I

:00:58.:01:04.

respect but were 12 months into the transforming rehabilitation

:01:05.:01:05.

programme initiated by my predecessor and it is only

:01:06.:01:10.

appropriate we acknowledge that the programme has seen an increase in

:01:11.:01:13.

the number of front line officers again of more than 500, it has

:01:14.:01:18.

brought in commercial expertise but also the charitable and voluntary

:01:19.:01:23.

sector and for the first time there is a direct requirement to provide

:01:24.:01:28.

support for those prisoners who leave after serving sentences of 12

:01:29.:01:34.

months or less. I think that is a humane and wise decision on the part

:01:35.:01:39.

of my predecessor because we know that it is those people who spend

:01:40.:01:43.

swords at -- shorter sentences are likely to reoffend and we can debate

:01:44.:01:48.

the consequences they tried that but what is undeniable is that if

:01:49.:01:53.

someone has served a shorter sentence and if they are part of

:01:54.:01:58.

that cohort to reoffend they deserve the support of probation just as

:01:59.:02:02.

much if not more than other offenders. The situation that

:02:03.:02:06.

prevailed where these offenders would get ?46 and be left to their

:02:07.:02:09.

own devices as they went to the prison gate has been replaced by my

:02:10.:02:14.

predecessor and it is only appropriate this house, whatever

:02:15.:02:18.

other criticisms acknowledge that was a step forward which he was

:02:19.:02:27.

responsible for. I'm grateful. He is right to highlight the persistent

:02:28.:02:33.

failure of improving those reoffending rates. Part of the

:02:34.:02:38.

challenge for successfully rehabilitating a prisoner is making

:02:39.:02:43.

sure their health and welfare is looked after whilst they are in

:02:44.:02:47.

prison but also when they are released that there is adequate

:02:48.:02:51.

support in the community for those mental health needs. What more does

:02:52.:02:55.

he think should be done that isn't being done? He makes a good point

:02:56.:03:06.

and let me answer it by saying more about my analysis and shared view on

:03:07.:03:10.

the front bench about what contributes to crime and how we

:03:11.:03:16.

might reduce it. There are... More than 85,000 people in prison, 5000

:03:17.:03:25.

of them are female, almost as many are foreign national offenders and

:03:26.:03:30.

you want to reduce that by having many serving sentences abroad. Of

:03:31.:03:34.

the remainder, there are some who have made a conscious decision to do

:03:35.:03:39.

the wrong thing. They have crossed a moral line and society has to make

:03:40.:03:45.

it clear with a serious punishment that they should not be let out. It

:03:46.:03:48.

isn't that they are a danger to others, we need to enforce the

:03:49.:03:53.

principal, the bright line between right and wrong. There are others in

:03:54.:03:58.

the prison system who will be suffering from mental health

:03:59.:04:03.

problems, sometimes serious personality disorders and while they

:04:04.:04:07.

pose a danger to the public, they also pose a danger to themselves and

:04:08.:04:11.

we need to ensure we improve what has been called diversion and

:04:12.:04:16.

liaison, the early detection to make sure there was an appropriate

:04:17.:04:20.

solution and if we do need to keep them safe whether in a secure

:04:21.:04:24.

hospital or prison, we need to ensure the mental health provision

:04:25.:04:27.

for them and one thing I've done is talk to the Secretary of State for

:04:28.:04:32.

health, the minister for prisons and I'm due to talk to Simon Stephens to

:04:33.:04:39.

ensure we can develop AIDS was -- more sophisticated approach. I'm

:04:40.:04:47.

grateful for the work from Lord Bradley whose work contains a number

:04:48.:04:53.

of powerful recommendations. I have done some work in my local area with

:04:54.:04:59.

a veterans group suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. We

:05:00.:05:03.

have dinner at work in the United States and one example I have is a

:05:04.:05:10.

treatment coach, the best example, the first one set up and out of 300

:05:11.:05:15.

cases not one of them reoffended. Could I ask the Secretary of State

:05:16.:05:19.

would he be prepared to meet with people who are involved in this work

:05:20.:05:22.

to try to see if we can make this work in everybody's interest? It is

:05:23.:05:29.

a good point, firstly it is over to the case that we take seriously the

:05:30.:05:37.

position of veterans of the system, my colleague at the behest of my

:05:38.:05:43.

predecessor did a report into the care of those offenders and it is

:05:44.:05:48.

the case the minister of State in my department is carrying forward that

:05:49.:05:51.

work and in particular is working with care after combat, a charity

:05:52.:05:55.

dealing with offenders who have been in the military and the point about

:05:56.:05:58.

problem-solving is powerful. I would be more than happy to make

:05:59.:06:18.

sure the Minister talks to the honourable member. This brings me

:06:19.:06:24.

onto a third point. There are some people in our prisons who deserve to

:06:25.:06:28.

be there because they have done wrong. Yes, there are people in our

:06:29.:06:32.

prisons you are there because of mental health or personality

:06:33.:06:36.

disorders. Then there are other people who have made profound

:06:37.:06:41.

mistakes, who have crossed the line, who have committed crimes, but to

:06:42.:06:46.

use actions deserve to be placed in context. Not for a moment and my

:06:47.:06:50.

suggesting that the pain a victim feels is any less as a result of the

:06:51.:06:56.

difficult circumstances that some people have been brought up in, but

:06:57.:07:01.

if we want to ensure that there are fewer victims in the future, that

:07:02.:07:06.

there is less hurt, less pain, we need to ask ourselves, what was it

:07:07.:07:10.

that led to that young man or woman into criminal activity, and in many

:07:11.:07:15.

cases, it will be because that individual grew up in a home where

:07:16.:07:19.

violence was the norm. They make have witnessed the mystic violence

:07:20.:07:26.

in their -- domestic violence in their early years. There may have

:07:27.:07:29.

been a failure to ensure that there was a loving attachments to a parent

:07:30.:07:34.

or care to put them first. There could have been an absence of love

:07:35.:07:38.

but also an absence of loving authority and no-one cared enough

:07:39.:07:43.

about them to teach under difference between the -- teach them the

:07:44.:07:46.

difference between right and wrong. They will go on to secondary school

:07:47.:07:52.

but get reading and will find, in the culture of games and the

:07:53.:07:56.

streets, a false calm Ruaidhri and a sense of self-esteem that they never

:07:57.:08:01.

found anywhere else. -- false come Ruaidhri. Then that individual will

:08:02.:08:06.

go on to commit crimes. Once they have broken the law, justice must be

:08:07.:08:13.

done, but as well as ensuring that justice is done, we should ensure

:08:14.:08:17.

that social justice is done on our streets, which means looking at some

:08:18.:08:22.

of the root causes, family breakdown, substance abuse, domestic

:08:23.:08:26.

violence, which contributes to the difficulties that these young people

:08:27.:08:30.

grow up in, and of course, I am happy to give way. Might write on a

:08:31.:08:36.

boyfriend is making a powerful point with which I agree. -- my right

:08:37.:08:40.

honourable friend. Would he agree that some of these short sentences,

:08:41.:08:47.

what the deceased people every page is alcohol? -- what he agree that

:08:48.:08:56.

what ever the people over the edge is alcohol?

:08:57.:09:01.

There is a much more effective treatment for this problem, which

:09:02.:09:08.

removes alcohol and therefore removes offending. The Minister for

:09:09.:09:13.

policing has been very closely involved in this. There has been a

:09:14.:09:20.

significant current review Shin -- contribution made to prevent

:09:21.:09:27.

reoffending. There are ways whereby individuals can be monitored in

:09:28.:09:30.

order to ensure that they stick as far as possible to the straight and

:09:31.:09:35.

narrow in a cheap and effective way that can and sure that they maintain

:09:36.:09:38.

the links with work or with family or with education which are critical

:09:39.:09:45.

to moving their lives. That takes me onto the particular challenge of the

:09:46.:09:49.

honourable gentleman, that he made in his speech, what will we do about

:09:50.:09:54.

things? I will be honest, I came into this job not expecting to be in

:09:55.:09:58.

it. I found it fascinating, challenging and some of those with

:09:59.:10:05.

whom I have worked inspiring. When I was in education, eye shadow for

:10:06.:10:08.

three years, and they came to office with a clear plan. -- eye shadow. In

:10:09.:10:17.

this job, I have deliver Lisette out to listen and learn and I have

:10:18.:10:24.

deliver Lisette out... To explore the landscape for me. That is why I

:10:25.:10:29.

have asked Sally Coates to look at education in our prison system and

:10:30.:10:34.

her reports will be published in the next couple of months, and it is

:10:35.:10:40.

already clear the money that was previously spent is now going to be

:10:41.:10:46.

spent by us in a way that suits prisoners and the needs of offenders

:10:47.:10:49.

and the needs of wider society rather than the requirements of a

:10:50.:10:52.

further education framework that was not appropriate for all offenders.

:10:53.:10:56.

More will be sent by Sally in due course. Charlie Taylor has devoted

:10:57.:11:02.

most of his career to working with young people, and his review of the

:11:03.:11:07.

youth estate has drawn preliminary lessons similar to those one up by

:11:08.:11:11.

the members of Hammersmith. It is the case that in some cases it is

:11:12.:11:17.

better for you the offenders to be cared for in smaller laces. They

:11:18.:11:21.

also need a clear path towards educational attainment. When of the

:11:22.:11:26.

problems we have is that for many educational attainment is capped in

:11:27.:11:33.

the way that politicians have been funded and the way which educational

:11:34.:11:41.

providers have been procured. There have been diet after diet after diet

:11:42.:11:44.

of level two qualifications which initially give them a purpose under

:11:45.:11:49.

nude hope but ultimately end up with them on a hamster wheel where. As

:11:50.:11:58.

well as improving education, I have also asked my colleague to lead a

:11:59.:12:04.

programme to ensure that we can get more prisoners working ruefully,

:12:05.:12:10.

meaning building on success of organisations who have done so much

:12:11.:12:14.

to recruit offenders. It means incarnating lessons. Many employers

:12:15.:12:23.

find that's... It also means providing new incentives for prison

:12:24.:12:29.

governors to give their inmates meaningful work, and that will mean

:12:30.:12:35.

thinking hard about how we can expand the use of release on

:12:36.:12:39.

temporary lessons. I think we need to give governors more power to

:12:40.:12:45.

ensure that prisoners at a certain point in their sentence when the

:12:46.:12:48.

governor is as sure as they can be that the individual's risk is

:12:49.:12:52.

diminishing, giving them a chance to go out during the day to work or

:12:53.:12:57.

acquire educational allocations to prepare them for life on the

:12:58.:13:00.

outside. Almost every prisoner is going to be let out at some point.

:13:01.:13:05.

You cannot keep every criminal in jail forever, and if we are going to

:13:06.:13:08.

release prisoners at some white, far, far better that they have, by a

:13:09.:13:14.

process of acclimatization and earth, learn what it is to work

:13:15.:13:26.

responsibly and hard to get the requirements they need to get a new

:13:27.:13:29.

start. We want to give governors more autonomy overall. Perhaps

:13:30.:13:40.

colleagues in a prisoner of this Association -- prison Officer

:13:41.:13:44.

Association and this might be a Trojan horse for a bigger role for

:13:45.:13:48.

the private sector. I believe that the private sector has had something

:13:49.:13:53.

to offer in prisons and that unites both front benches. There was a

:13:54.:13:57.

growth under Labour and their are some private prisons that do an

:13:58.:14:09.

exemplary job and which every review underlines that fact.

:14:10.:14:15.

There needs to be more freedom within the state sector to deal what

:14:16.:14:22.

needs to be done, and my model is the model of Academy principles, the

:14:23.:14:28.

chief executives of the NHS trusts who have shown that with increased

:14:29.:14:32.

autonomy and the structure of clear accountability they can achieve

:14:33.:14:34.

significant improvements for the better. I begin by saying that I was

:14:35.:14:42.

grateful for the tone in which this debate was opened by the honourable

:14:43.:14:46.

gentleman and I am looking forward to reading as many of the

:14:47.:14:49.

contributions as possible. Eye will have to leave at 530 but I hope to

:14:50.:14:53.

return at 630. Every single contribution to this date matters.

:14:54.:15:06.

-- to this debate. The prison population are individuals whom we

:15:07.:15:08.

should not see as individuals but as potential assets. Many of them have

:15:09.:15:17.

led broken lives. Many of them have brought pain and misery into the

:15:18.:15:22.

lives of others. What we want to ensure that in the future they can

:15:23.:15:26.

capture beaut to our society rather than bringing more pain and misery.

:15:27.:15:32.

We are tough on crime and the Conservative Party and we appreciate

:15:33.:15:35.

that really being tough on crime means being intellectually tough

:15:36.:15:41.

enough to wrestle with the problem of why crime occurs and how you can

:15:42.:15:46.

stop criminals offending again. What is truly soft on crime is being

:15:47.:15:50.

intellectually soft and reaching for easy, simple sound bites instead of

:15:51.:16:00.

intellectually rigorous solutions, and that is why I commend the prison

:16:01.:16:06.

Reform programme to the House. Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to

:16:07.:16:16.

speak in this Opposition Day debate. The concern that prisons are

:16:17.:16:19.

becoming increasingly more dangerous for staff and prisoners is an issue

:16:20.:16:25.

that must be addressed. On one hand, we have people you have an

:16:26.:16:29.

incredibly tough job regulating and ensuring the safety of those within

:16:30.:16:33.

prisons, and on the other hand, we have offenders who are themselves

:16:34.:16:37.

vulnerable, especially in relation to their mental health. As such, the

:16:38.:16:43.

claim by an outgoing chief inspector that prisons are at their worst for

:16:44.:16:49.

ten years is alarming. Death in prison custody, incidents of self

:16:50.:16:53.

harm, assaults on staff are great issues on and I believe that it is

:16:54.:16:58.

important not only to tackle these issues, but to discover the root

:16:59.:17:02.

causes and develop legislation that aims to curb negative behaviours.

:17:03.:17:07.

For Scotland, prisons are a devout issue, and I believe that the two

:17:08.:17:13.

approaches offenders in different ways. The approach in Scotland is

:17:14.:17:19.

different than in England and Wales. We might be dealing with similar

:17:20.:17:23.

challenges but we respond to offenders in different ways. The

:17:24.:17:30.

strategy in Scotland reflects the reshaping of policy, and by large

:17:31.:17:33.

accounts, the decision not to proceed with the women's prisons

:17:34.:17:38.

shows that the government is listening and is concerned with

:17:39.:17:42.

performing prisons to make them better for those who have served

:17:43.:17:45.

this sentences and for those who were there. There will be a

:17:46.:17:53.

tentative initials -- alternative initiatives to help reduce

:17:54.:17:59.

reoffending. Reduction in reoffending is key to the strategy

:18:00.:18:01.

in resolving the problems faced by the Prison Service and by society as

:18:02.:18:09.

a whole. Reoffending costs around ?3 billion a year, creates victims,

:18:10.:18:13.

damages, these and wastes potential. The Scottish Government recognises

:18:14.:18:19.

the specific needs of female prisoners and has invested ?1.5

:18:20.:18:24.

million of community justice services for women and support

:18:25.:18:28.

services for female offenders whichever been costed and based on

:18:29.:18:32.

recommendations for the commission for women offenders, and this

:18:33.:18:36.

includes access to intensive support to help overcome issues such as

:18:37.:18:42.

alcohol, drugs, mental health and domestic abuse trauma. Evidence

:18:43.:18:46.

shows that many of these issues can be the driver for offending

:18:47.:18:49.

behaviour. The change in this policy has been widely accepted. The

:18:50.:18:56.

director of operations in one justice organisation waste her

:18:57.:18:59.

support for the Scottish Government plans, saying that the use of

:19:00.:19:03.

credible alternatives for women in prison, many who have contract

:19:04.:19:11.

issues him a focuses on the strong recovery and improved partnership

:19:12.:19:13.

working and investment community based services offering an

:19:14.:19:18.

encouraging way forward. The Scottish Government believes that

:19:19.:19:23.

short-term prison sentences are effective. Rather than

:19:24.:19:30.

community-based alternatives such as electronic monitoring, these can

:19:31.:19:36.

help curb problems associated with present life, and this report has

:19:37.:19:41.

already seen success in Scotland. The SNP's vision for Scottish penal

:19:42.:19:47.

reform is trying to mitigate some of the effects of austerity by

:19:48.:19:52.

vulnerable people. Through this reform, a safe and effective

:19:53.:19:56.

alternative to the prison system is offered, and a focus on revocation,

:19:57.:20:05.

and re-introduction, and this tackles the root causes of the very

:20:06.:20:08.

issues that Labour are imposing in this motion today. I think my right

:20:09.:20:16.

to shrug I think my right honourable friend said that some of the direct

:20:17.:20:21.

-- my right honourable friend said that some of the dire

:20:22.:20:26.

circumstances... 25 years ago, when I was Home Secretary, we had debates

:20:27.:20:31.

like this when I was responsible for the prison system, and we haven't

:20:32.:20:37.

gotten far enough since. I am glad to say that I think the positive new

:20:38.:20:41.

impetus, positive new ideas, are coming from my friend the Lord

:20:42.:20:46.

Chancellor, and I found the whole tone of his speech today, as I found

:20:47.:20:50.

the tone of his speeches since he began, after studying the subject,

:20:51.:20:55.

extremely reassuring. The prison system is what we

:20:56.:21:02.

concentrate on because that is where the problems are. I agree with what

:21:03.:21:10.

was said, it serves two purposes, one is retribution and punishment

:21:11.:21:14.

for serious crime where people have deliberately decided for personal

:21:15.:21:21.

advantage to defy the law and for people who commit very dangerous and

:21:22.:21:26.

violent acts when they fail to keep self-control. Secondly, it is to try

:21:27.:21:34.

to reform as many of the prisoners as it has inside to try to ensure

:21:35.:21:38.

that as many as possible when they leave prison actually are cured of

:21:39.:21:46.

their former behaviour, find a new purpose in life and do not offend

:21:47.:21:51.

again. Every prisoner reformed means fewer crimes, fewer victims in

:21:52.:21:58.

future than would otherwise have been the case. And I am delighted

:21:59.:22:05.

that in his approach to his task, the Lord Chancellor has put

:22:06.:22:10.

rehabilitation of offenders where the offender is prepared to take

:22:11.:22:15.

advantage of the opportunities right at the forefront of his aims. I made

:22:16.:22:19.

speeches in the last Parliament when I was Lord Chancellor covering much

:22:20.:22:26.

of his ground and I won't repeat all of that. Those fascinated by my

:22:27.:22:31.

ancient views can go back to them again. My right honourable friend

:22:32.:22:38.

has said things on raising the standards of education in prison, we

:22:39.:22:42.

-- far too many prisoners have not ever attained any basic standards of

:22:43.:22:46.

literacy or new Morrissey. Raising the levels of skill training for

:22:47.:22:52.

outside employment when far too many prisoners have never had a job in

:22:53.:22:59.

their lives. Bringing yet more businesses in to join the existing

:23:00.:23:03.

excellent businesses that have found they can give proper skills training

:23:04.:23:09.

to prisoners in prison. Actually tackling drug abuse which we all

:23:10.:23:14.

know remains scandalously high. Dealing with mental health, the

:23:15.:23:19.

biggest single issue in raising the health care standards of people in

:23:20.:23:26.

prison generally. All of that, I agree, and I support the enlightened

:23:27.:23:31.

policies he puts forward. And this rehabilitation has been the agenda

:23:32.:23:36.

of this government ever since we first were elected. So we look back

:23:37.:23:44.

over so far and I concede that I am disappointed by the progress that we

:23:45.:23:48.

have made. Actually, prison management nowadays is infinitely

:23:49.:23:55.

better than it was 25 years ago. There are things that have improved,

:23:56.:23:59.

the staff are very keen to see the progress that my right honourable

:24:00.:24:04.

friend describes and there are successes in the treatment of women

:24:05.:24:08.

offenders and young offenders, despite the problems in some

:24:09.:24:13.

institutions as have been said. But the test that I apply is what

:24:14.:24:21.

success have we achieved in rehabilitation? No one has shrunk

:24:22.:24:25.

from the fact we still have to confess that 45% of offenders will

:24:26.:24:34.

actually, adults, will reoffend within 12 months of being released.

:24:35.:24:39.

And if you go back to those who've served shorter sentences the figure

:24:40.:24:48.

is 58%. Which means that the prison system is not working as effectively

:24:49.:24:53.

as it should to protect the honest citizens outside. One reason, no one

:24:54.:25:02.

knows exactly why that remains so persistent, I remain strongly of the

:25:03.:25:07.

view that one trouble is which is leading to the enlightened policy,

:25:08.:25:11.

not delivering results and that is the test we should look at is there

:25:12.:25:17.

are too many prisoners in the prisons. You cannot deliver these

:25:18.:25:25.

policies in squalid, overcrowded slums where you do not have the

:25:26.:25:32.

space nor the resources actually to deliver education, training and

:25:33.:25:36.

proper health care and better attitudes of the kind we wish to

:25:37.:25:42.

give. And I complained when I was Lord Chancellor that the prison

:25:43.:25:48.

population had doubled since I was home secretary despite the fact that

:25:49.:25:53.

the level of crime in the country had quite markedly dropped and I do

:25:54.:25:56.

not think it was any relation between the two because crime drops

:25:57.:26:00.

across the western world in those countries that have shortened their

:26:01.:26:05.

incarceration rates as well. We have the highest incarceration rate in

:26:06.:26:12.

Europe, second only to the United States where in many states now

:26:13.:26:17.

they're making determined efforts with right-wing leadership to get

:26:18.:26:23.

the incarceration rate down and to get out of the prisons the people

:26:24.:26:29.

should be there. I look forward to hearing his views in the short time

:26:30.:26:33.

available. I do not want to cut anybody out of this debate. I

:26:34.:26:44.

believe that we should set out as one objective actually producing the

:26:45.:26:48.

prison population and I say to my right honourable friend two is still

:26:49.:26:52.

in his place that I set out to do that not only because I believe

:26:53.:26:55.

there were people in prison who should not be there but it underpins

:26:56.:27:01.

the very bold spending commitments that I offered to the Treasury which

:27:02.:27:05.

they gratefully accepted and I proposed a 30% cut in the budget of

:27:06.:27:15.

the Department partly based on getting down this ridiculously

:27:16.:27:20.

excessive prison population. I got it sagging but it has gone up again.

:27:21.:27:25.

It is where it was only got into office. I briefly say that you

:27:26.:27:31.

should not shrink from prison reform sentencing reforms and Lord Justice

:27:32.:27:41.

Tracey must face up to mandatory levels do not naturally meet the

:27:42.:27:48.

very circumstances of cases. Develop better non-custodial sentences and

:27:49.:27:55.

so on and there is a whole speech. I concentrate finally on suggesting

:27:56.:27:59.

one positive suggestion where I think my right honourable friend

:28:00.:28:03.

could proceed serving the cause of justice which above all we have to

:28:04.:28:10.

follow and also meeting the needs of the moment in reducing unnecessary

:28:11.:28:15.

overcrowding. I urge him to get rid of the last vestiges of

:28:16.:28:21.

indeterminate sentences and those who are still in prison. They were

:28:22.:28:28.

introduced in 2003, they took off surprisingly and I abolished them in

:28:29.:28:38.

2012. I assumed that the idea sentences should be given where a

:28:39.:28:42.

minimum tariff is given to reflect the crime that the prisoner would be

:28:43.:28:50.

held in prison indefinitely until he was able to satisfy the parole board

:28:51.:28:55.

that he was no longer a risk, I think the term is the risks are

:28:56.:29:00.

manageable that actually once we repealed and abolish them, so no

:29:01.:29:03.

more would receive the sentence we would not keep long those who were

:29:04.:29:11.

all ready there serving sentences as they steadily earned their release.

:29:12.:29:16.

That has not happened. When I was Lord Chancellor there were over 6000

:29:17.:29:24.

of them. The forecast was that will be eight or 9000 by 20 15. We

:29:25.:29:34.

actually have over 4000 still there. Of those, three quarters have now

:29:35.:29:41.

exceeded the tariff, the sentence, which the judge gave them for the

:29:42.:29:49.

offence and one in five... I forget the figure now... A very high

:29:50.:29:55.

proportion, a fifth, I think, have served five times the sentence they

:29:56.:30:00.

were imposed and some will never be released. He has the power, I wanted

:30:01.:30:07.

to get rid of the more together and let people reach the tariff was a

:30:08.:30:12.

senior colleagues were nervous and cautious about that and I was not

:30:13.:30:16.

allowed to take the step I wanted to achieve that. I took the power in

:30:17.:30:22.

the bill, if studies the 2011 bill, has the power to alter the terms of

:30:23.:30:28.

reference from the parole board. At the moment, the individual prisoner

:30:29.:30:33.

has to satisfy, prove to the parole board that he poses no risk. There

:30:34.:30:38.

is no prisoner in prison who could make any of us certain he would not

:30:39.:30:42.

reoffend but we hope the most of them won't. And we should only keep

:30:43.:30:49.

indefinitely some of them will stay for life if we are not careful,

:30:50.:30:55.

those where there is a reason for believing they pose a current risk

:30:56.:31:02.

when they depart. There are 4000 he could steadily more rapidly get rid

:31:03.:31:06.

of, the easing of the burden on the pressures in the prison service

:31:07.:31:10.

would help to achieve all of his goals, I hope he achieves them. If

:31:11.:31:14.

he can deliver what he has decided to try to deliver, he will indeed be

:31:15.:31:22.

a reforming Lord Chancellor. I will put a six minute labour after this

:31:23.:31:30.

speaker. The debate has been civil, and let's hope that it remains so,

:31:31.:31:38.

I'm not sure whether it will continue however I am reassured by

:31:39.:31:45.

the civil tone of the Justice secretary who I have a lot of

:31:46.:31:49.

respect for and the prisons minister who I have met on many occasions

:31:50.:31:55.

with regards to issues in the prison nearest to my constituency. I think

:31:56.:32:01.

the motion put forward by the opposition is well crafted and it

:32:02.:32:06.

spelt out clearly the situation facing not just the prison service

:32:07.:32:10.

but also the probation service and we have lacked a little bit on the

:32:11.:32:16.

probation service so far as the contributions have been made. It is

:32:17.:32:24.

absolutely clear that the prison service is in utter chaos. And I am

:32:25.:32:27.

not looking to put the blame on anybody or put six fingers up saying

:32:28.:32:34.

you have been in six years and I am not wanting anyone to say what did

:32:35.:32:41.

you do then...? How do we put this issue right? It is in utter chaos

:32:42.:32:46.

and I'm not bothered what anyone says because I have had people in my

:32:47.:32:50.

constituency coming to see me, prisoners coming to see me and I

:32:51.:32:56.

have had members of the public and teachers and chaplains and people

:32:57.:33:02.

who work on the prison estate as well, members of the prison officers

:33:03.:33:10.

Association. It is right to place on record a high praise for the men and

:33:11.:33:15.

women in both the prison service and the probation service who do a

:33:16.:33:20.

fantastic job under the most difficult of circumstances and it is

:33:21.:33:23.

important they realise that people in this house understand the

:33:24.:33:28.

problems that they face. But it wasn't just the individuals that

:33:29.:33:38.

suggested the prison service had deteriorated, it was the chief

:33:39.:33:42.

inspector of prisons in South who said that they were the worst he had

:33:43.:33:50.

seen for ten years. And whilst the prison population continues to

:33:51.:33:56.

increase, 85,000 plus now in the prisons which is at record levels,

:33:57.:34:01.

at the same time a reduction if staff in the prison estate as well.

:34:02.:34:09.

That surely has to be the recipe for disaster. More prisoners, less

:34:10.:34:18.

people looking after them. And the Justice secretary said there were

:34:19.:34:23.

500 new recruits in the past year or so but it is what happened before

:34:24.:34:30.

then in terms of the reduction in staffing on the prison estate. And

:34:31.:34:35.

what we lost them was lots of people who had tremendous experience in the

:34:36.:34:39.

prison service. And the people that came in, the people that fills the

:34:40.:34:46.

role is, in many ways are on low wages, terms and conditions and lack

:34:47.:34:51.

any experience so what is an important occupation and we lost

:34:52.:34:55.

that and we have not gained background back in the prison

:34:56.:35:02.

service. So, I think we all, as politicians, have deep concerns with

:35:03.:35:06.

regard to this. And I will tell you why, it's been mentioned all ready

:35:07.:35:10.

but if you look at the bare statistics regarding to what is

:35:11.:35:17.

happening in the service as we sit here, there were deaths in custody,

:35:18.:35:26.

up 14%. Self harm is up 21%. Assault, prisoner on prisoner, up

:35:27.:35:37.

13%. Assault on staff, 4156 staff assaulted by prisoners last year,

:35:38.:35:43.

that is 20% increase, that has to horrify everyone. And serious

:35:44.:35:49.

assault on staff, 572 and that is an increase which has been mentioned

:35:50.:35:56.

all ready, 42%. At the very least, we should be ensuring that the

:35:57.:36:02.

members of the prison service who are there doing the job but they are

:36:03.:36:06.

paid to do should be safe in doing so.

:36:07.:36:17.

The statistics are there, and we have seen the injuries that many of

:36:18.:36:27.

them have received whilst doing a day's works to put shoes on the

:36:28.:36:31.

children and bred on the table. We should be looking at ways and means

:36:32.:36:38.

of ensuring that these statistics are greatly reduced. It has been

:36:39.:36:45.

mentioned by the right honourable gentleman to reoffending rates, the

:36:46.:36:50.

adult reoffending rate is now 45.8%. Unacceptable. The juvenile rate of

:36:51.:36:58.

reoffending is now 66.5%. We have got to get to the bottom of this,

:36:59.:37:02.

because if we do not, it will continue to increase, and there will

:37:03.:37:08.

be further chaos. It is frightening. I am not being alarming, but I am

:37:09.:37:12.

saying that the Prison Service is incomplete and under met them --

:37:13.:37:19.

meltdown, and it is in mayhem. I think we looked, mentioned the

:37:20.:37:28.

privatsation of many prisons, and again, it was said, the opposition

:37:29.:37:30.

privatised prisons and that happened. It is pointless for me to

:37:31.:37:39.

stand here and try to raise his truck fax, because it happened. --

:37:40.:37:44.

historic facts. But it doesn't make it better to see what is happening

:37:45.:37:50.

in some privatised prisons today. The prison nearest to my

:37:51.:38:01.

constituency, there was a successful bidder and operator of the prison.

:38:02.:38:06.

Immediately, the model was to reduce the workforce from 440 two 270. It

:38:07.:38:14.

frightened that many people, there were rushes for redundancies and

:38:15.:38:23.

many left the service. That is something we did not want to see. We

:38:24.:38:30.

hear reports, these people who come to see me are frightened, we hear

:38:31.:38:35.

reports about what is happening in the likes of HMP Northumberland, the

:38:36.:38:45.

drugs, the spice. The spice must be unbelievable, and I am not sure if

:38:46.:38:51.

anybody in here will have ever admitted to taking it, certainly I

:38:52.:38:55.

have not, and it would not be my intention to do so, but they reckon

:38:56.:39:01.

that the spice is rice, they reckon everybody in the prison is on spice,

:39:02.:39:05.

and if you are not, something is wrong with you. How are they getting

:39:06.:39:09.

this stuff in the prison? Why is it being allowed to escalate to the

:39:10.:39:14.

proportions it has done? Someone mentioned before the new Bill that

:39:15.:39:21.

went through Parliament, sorry, the one that is going through Parliament

:39:22.:39:26.

with regards to legal highs. It doesn't matter whether these highs

:39:27.:39:31.

or legal or illegal, we have got to stomp them out on the prison estate,

:39:32.:39:35.

because it is causing problems in terms of violence and everything

:39:36.:39:38.

else associated with the things that we are all discussing here today.

:39:39.:39:45.

Alcohol is a huge problem. There is alcohol in the prisons. They are

:39:46.:39:49.

making their own alcohol! I will tell you something else, not last

:39:50.:39:55.

Christmas, but the Christmas before, there was a situation at HMP

:39:56.:39:59.

Northumberland were there was an emergency situation where they could

:40:00.:40:10.

not contact one of the prison officers. He was a man who had just

:40:11.:40:14.

been employed and had not even been checked and he was one of the people

:40:15.:40:17.

who had no experience, but he knew a few of the prisoners on it they were

:40:18.:40:24.

his mates, and they could not contact him, this was on new year's

:40:25.:40:28.

date, and they eventually went up on the wing, the doors were opened,

:40:29.:40:33.

everyone was having a whale of a time, and it was not the prisoners

:40:34.:40:39.

who were intoxicated, it was the prison officer, who was lying

:40:40.:40:46.

intoxicated on the bed. The keys for the prison for the wing were lying

:40:47.:40:52.

there for anybody to get a hold of, which is a cardinal sin. Iraizoz

:40:53.:41:00.

these points with -- I raised these points with my right honourable

:41:01.:41:04.

friend, the Minister for prisons. We have got people with mobile phones

:41:05.:41:09.

are ranging crime from their prison cells. We have to stomp that out. We

:41:10.:41:17.

have got bullying and intimidation like we have never seen before, and

:41:18.:41:22.

another incident which happened at HMP Northumberland, which we need to

:41:23.:41:27.

look at, is the fact that there was not enough prison staff to ensure

:41:28.:41:32.

the segregation of vulnerable prisoners and ordinary, mainstream

:41:33.:41:38.

prisoners, and it caused absolute mayhem, as you can understand. There

:41:39.:41:41.

was a faeces thrown in the food of the vulnerable prisoners. They

:41:42.:41:46.

cannot have that happening in a modern-day situation. I just want to

:41:47.:41:55.

wrap up by saying, that this issue on prisons and probation, I hope

:41:56.:42:00.

someone is looking towards speaking on the probation side of things,

:42:01.:42:05.

because that is a fragmentation of the probation service that has been

:42:06.:42:09.

caused, lots and lots of problems within the service itself since

:42:10.:42:13.

hybridization, and that is something we need to look at. -- since

:42:14.:42:21.

privatsation. It is a privilege to speak on what is an important

:42:22.:42:25.

debate, and I recognise the serious tone that has been adopted

:42:26.:42:29.

throughout. I particularly commend to the House that the immensely

:42:30.:42:40.

important analysis by my right honourable friend is spot on, and I

:42:41.:42:46.

are a much commend it to my honourable friends, not just as a

:42:47.:42:49.

thorough and thoughtful piece of analysis, but also a profoundly

:42:50.:42:54.

Conservative analysis as well. There is no monopoly between any of us

:42:55.:43:00.

when it comes to prison reform. When I was a young barrister starting to

:43:01.:43:05.

go into prison visits, something like 40 years ago, institutions like

:43:06.:43:12.

Wandsworth, like wormwood scrubs, were unsatisfactory and not fit or

:43:13.:43:17.

purpose then. They have not got better and the pressures have become

:43:18.:43:22.

great. The pressures of overcrowding, the pressures of

:43:23.:43:25.

contraband coming into prison existed then as well. Contraband has

:43:26.:43:31.

long been an issue. What has changed is the technology and the means by

:43:32.:43:34.

which contraband is brought in. These are long-standing issues and

:43:35.:43:40.

the Lord Chancellor deserves credit for mentioning it, and in

:43:41.:43:47.

particular, replacing that ageing estates, when it is impossible to

:43:48.:43:50.

carry out serious work and deal with the very real mental health and

:43:51.:43:54.

psychological issues that any prisoners have, which should be a

:43:55.:44:05.

top priority. The justice select committee is currently carrying out

:44:06.:44:10.

an inquiry concentrating on a young offender, which are a particularly

:44:11.:44:18.

difficult set of the prison population. The review was actually

:44:19.:44:25.

set up by request of the previous Lord Chancellor. The government has

:44:26.:44:31.

responded to the review, and I would urge that the detail of that review,

:44:32.:44:36.

which goes beyond the specifics shortly of young offenders and has

:44:37.:44:41.

many other lessons, recognises and deserves a more detailed and

:44:42.:44:44.

substantive response than we have seen so far. Safety in prisons is a

:44:45.:44:54.

critical issue. I don't doubt the polity of prison staff that we have.

:44:55.:45:04.

Many prisons have been visited. There are excellent people working

:45:05.:45:08.

there. My concern sometimes, though him is that the senior management at

:45:09.:45:13.

its operation does not always give the impression that it works through

:45:14.:45:18.

in practice on the ground what sort of assurances are given to us in the

:45:19.:45:23.

select committee or elsewhere. It is important that there is a generally

:45:24.:45:27.

flexible and responsive management system. I think there is scope for

:45:28.:45:33.

further review on the way in which the objectives are delivered in

:45:34.:45:38.

practice, and I am sure that the new chief inspector will have a strategy

:45:39.:45:43.

she will want to discuss with the Lord Chancellor in relation to that

:45:44.:45:48.

in a few months. -- that he will want. There has been evidence that

:45:49.:45:54.

we took from the families of young people who had died in custody. It

:45:55.:45:59.

was profoundly moving, frankly, and it demonstrated that there have been

:46:00.:46:06.

some areas repeated and needless feelings, sharing information,

:46:07.:46:11.

acting in decisively on information which could have otherwise been

:46:12.:46:13.

addressed, these are things which can be put right fairly basically.

:46:14.:46:19.

There are successes in the prison estate and failures, and both are

:46:20.:46:24.

not unique to either privatised or publicly run prisons. We have to be

:46:25.:46:28.

realistic and not simplistic about that. We welcome the evidence that

:46:29.:46:33.

has been given by the Minister for prisons and the Chief Executive but

:46:34.:46:42.

we feel there needs to be a specific programme with action plans for

:46:43.:46:45.

tackling the issues of violence and self harm in prisons, and certainly,

:46:46.:46:49.

we must have more emphasis on rehabilitation. My right honourable

:46:50.:46:58.

friend was right to refer to these sentences. I was at the same event

:46:59.:47:05.

as a Shadow Minister yesterday were these points were made, and this is

:47:06.:47:09.

something we could start work on very stiffly. We should also

:47:10.:47:15.

recognise the proper structure of life in prison and proper meaningful

:47:16.:47:19.

work is important. We should be looking to see if we can remove some

:47:20.:47:23.

of the legal constraints which event meaningful and paid employment

:47:24.:47:28.

taking place -- perhaps we could see -- taking faith. Perhaps money could

:47:29.:47:34.

be set aside for prisoners and their families upon release. I hope that

:47:35.:47:40.

the Minister will be able to give us a more detail as they go forward as

:47:41.:47:44.

to how that might be achieved. Finally, it is important that we

:47:45.:47:48.

have a robust inspectorate to ensure compliance. I wish the new inspector

:47:49.:47:54.

well and I hope that we will see fleets they put in place the

:47:55.:47:58.

protocol that was referred to when they permanent Secretary and the

:47:59.:48:01.

outgoing chief inspector gave evidence to us very recently to make

:48:02.:48:04.

sure that resourcing and independence is not an issue in

:48:05.:48:09.

enabling the inspectorate to deliver its important work. All in all, this

:48:10.:48:13.

is an important debate and an important one. Those who believe in

:48:14.:48:18.

genuine reform and not simplistic slogan arising, those who have...

:48:19.:48:28.

Order. Thank you. I would like to thank my right honourable friend the

:48:29.:48:32.

member from Hammersmith for his tenacity in at last securing this

:48:33.:48:39.

Opposition Day debate on prisons. In preparing this speech, I was

:48:40.:48:42.

thinking about the different angles I could possibly go at this topic

:48:43.:48:47.

from, and you could pick radicalisation, women offenders,

:48:48.:48:51.

mental health, drugs, violence, opportunities for early intervention

:48:52.:48:56.

and diversion, young people, there are plenty of ways to approach the

:48:57.:49:03.

topic of prisons, but I want to talk about staff. I have spent five years

:49:04.:49:08.

shadowing the prison ministers and I have visited prisons very regularly,

:49:09.:49:14.

and met with hundreds of prison staff, and with offenders as well,

:49:15.:49:18.

and also with victims of crime, and they cannot tell you how poorly

:49:19.:49:26.

understood, undervalued and ignored our criminal justice workforce feel

:49:27.:49:32.

and indeed have become, and this has brought home to me, in its darkest

:49:33.:49:38.

possible way, when custody officer Lorraine a Barwell lost her life at

:49:39.:49:42.

the hands of a prisoner at work. When serving, Armed Forces Isabel,

:49:43.:49:54.

in their line of duty, was their lives, their names, quite rightly

:49:55.:49:59.

are read out at the beginning of Prime Minister's Questions each

:50:00.:50:05.

week. No such honour was afforded to Lorraine, and I know that no

:50:06.:50:10.

disrespect was intended, but I think this does illustrate a disparity in

:50:11.:50:13.

the esteem with which prison officers are held when compared to

:50:14.:50:19.

other uniformed services, and we in this House, with an interest in

:50:20.:50:22.

prisons, and it is great that we have such an interest, with an

:50:23.:50:28.

interest in prisons policy, advocates ability and duty to change

:50:29.:50:33.

this, and change it, I think we must. There is no doubt in my mind

:50:34.:50:37.

that our prisons are in a dreadful state, but with the right leadership

:50:38.:50:42.

from the government, it is prison staff that hold the key to unlocking

:50:43.:50:48.

the rehabilitation revolution that we all want. Several members of the

:50:49.:50:53.

Sid said, it is all very well promoting this today, but we could

:50:54.:50:58.

have presented this motion six years ago. They should take absolutely no

:50:59.:51:04.

pride or comfort in that fact whatsoever. I want to be part of a

:51:05.:51:08.

Parliament where we see improvement. That opportunity and the last five

:51:09.:51:25.

years has been completely wasted.

:51:26.:51:28.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS