Browse content similar to 03/02/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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children's mental health and eating disorders where we tragically see a | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
real growth. The money is there. Statement, the Prime Minister. With | :00:08. | :00:16. | |
permission I would like to make a statement on progress with our | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
renegotiation. The House has now had the chance to study the document is | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
published by the European Council yesterday. I believe this is an | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
important milestone in the process of reform, renegotiation and | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
referendum that we set out in the manifesto and which this Government | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
is delivering. We have now legislated for the referendum and we | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
are holding the renegotiation. Let me set out the problems we are | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
trying to fix and the progress we have made. First, we don't want our | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
country to be bound up in an ever closer political union in Europe, we | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
are a proud and independent nation with proud democratic institutions | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
that has served us well over the centuries. Europe is about working | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
together to advance shared prosperity and security. It's not | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
about being sucked into a European superstate, not now, not ever. The | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
draft text set out in full the special status according to the UK | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
and clearly cards us out further political integration and it will go | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
further to make clear that EU countries don't even have to aim for | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
a common destination. This is a formal recognition of the flexible | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
Europe that Britain has been long arguing for. In keeping Britain out | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
of ever closer union I wanted to strengthen the role of this House | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
and all national parliaments. We have a proposal that if Brussels | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
comes up with legislation we don't want we can get together with other | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
parliaments to block it with a red card. We have also proposed a new | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
mechanism to finally enforce the principle of subsidiaries which | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
states that as far as possible, powers should sit in this parliament | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
and not in Brussels. Every year the European Union has to go through the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
powers they exercise and work out which are no longer needed and | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
should be returned to nation states. I said we wanted to make Europe more | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
competitive and deal with rule-making and bureaucracy that | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
costs jobs in Britain and indeed across the EU. We asked for | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
commitments on all of the areas central to European competitiveness. | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
We want trade deals, the single market completed, and trade... There | :02:33. | :02:41. | |
are specific targets to reduce burdens on business in key sectors. | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
Barra is a new mechanism to drive through targets -- varies. Cutting | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
the target year-on-year. We are clear that Britain will keep the | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
pound, in my view for ever. We need to be just as clear that we can keep | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
the pound in a European Union that will be fair to our currency, but | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
simply the EU must not become the euro only club and if it does it | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
would not be a club for us. We call for a series of principles to | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
protect the single market for Britain, we said there must be no | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
discrimination against the pound, no disadvantage for businesses using | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
our currency wherever they are located in the EU and no option for | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
Britain to ever again be forced to bailout Eurozone countries. These | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
principles are reflected in the draft text which is legally binding. | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
Britain has the ability to act to uphold principles and protect our | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
interests. We should be clear that British jobs depend on being able to | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
trade on a level playing field within the European single market, | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
whether in financial services or cars or anything. This plan if the | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
grid would apply the strongest possible protection for Britain from | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
discrimination and unfair practices. Never again could the EU try the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
so-called location policy, the settling of complex trades in Euros | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
must only take place in Eurozone countries, that would outlaw that | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
sort of proposal. These are protections we could not have if | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
Britain were outside the European Union. We want to deal with the | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
pressures of immigration which have become too great. Of course we need | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
to do more to control migration from outside the European Union, we will | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
be announcing more measures. We need to control migration within the EU | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
too. The draft text represents the strongest ever tackling of closing | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
down back routes to Britain. It includes active against fraud and | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
preventing those who provide a threat from coming to the country. | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
It will overturn a decision which has allowed illegal migrants to | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
marry and stay in the country. It has been a source of perpetual | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
frustration that we can't impose our own rules on third country nationals | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
coming from the European Union. After the hard work of the Home | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
Secretary we have a proposal to put it right. There are also new | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
proposals to reduce the pull factor that our benefit system exerts | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
across Europe by allowing instant access to welfare from the day | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
someone arrives. People said Europe wouldn't even recognise we have this | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
problem but the text explicitly recognises that welfare systems act | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
as an unnatural draw to come to the country. Our manifesto set out four | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
objective is to solve the problem, I mention these at PMQs. We already | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
delivered on two of them within months of the general election. | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
Already migrants from the EU will not be able to claim Universal | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
Credit while looking for work and if they haven't found work in six | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
months they can now be required to leave. In these texts we have secure | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
proposals for the other two areas. If someone comes from another | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
country in Europe, leaving their family at home, their child benefit | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
will be paid at the local rate and not the generous British rate. We | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
have reduced the draw of the generous in work benefits. People | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
said it would be impossible to end the idea of something for nothing | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
and that a four year restriction was out of the question but that is now | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
what is in the text. An emergency brake that will mean people coming | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
from within the EU will have to wait four years until they have full | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
access to the benefits. The European Commission clearly said that Britain | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
qualifies already to use the mechanism so with the necessary | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
legislation we could implement it shortly after the referendum. | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Finally let me be absolutely clear about the legal status of these | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
changes that are now on offer. People said we would never get | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
something that was legally binding but this plan if agreed will be | :06:55. | :07:00. | |
accepted at. These changes will be binding in international law and | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
will be deposited at the UN. They cannot be changed without the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
unanimous agreement of every EU country including Britain. So when I | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
said I wanted change that is legally binding and irreversible that is | :07:13. | :07:19. | |
what I have got. In key areas treaty change is envisaged in the | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
documents. We are making real progress in all four areas but the | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
process is far from over. There are details that still need to be pinned | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
down and intense negotiations to try to agree the deal with 27 other | :07:32. | :07:32. | |
countries. It is right that the house debate | :07:33. | :07:53. | |
the issues in detail, so following a council statement later, the | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
government will make time for a full day of debate on the floor of this | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
house. Mr Speaker, as we approach this choice, let me be clear about | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
two things. First, I'm not arguing, and I will never argue, that Britain | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
could not survive outside the European union. We are the fifth | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
largest economy in the world, the biggest defence player in Europe | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
with one of the most extensive and influential diplomatic networks on | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
the planet. The question is not good Britain succeed outside the European | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
Union, but how will we be most successful? How will we create the | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
most jobs and have the most influence on the rules that shape | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
the global economy and affect us? How will we be most secure? I always | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
say the best answer to those questions can be found within a | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
reformed European Union. Let me say again, if we cannot secure the | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
changes, I rule nothing out. Second, even if we secure the changes, you | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
will never hear me say that this organisation is now fixed all stop | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
far from it. There will be many things to remain to be reformed and | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
Britain will remain -- continue to lead the way. We will make sure | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
Britain works are the countries of Europe, for the businesses and | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
people of Europe and crucially for the British people who want to work | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
and have security and get on and make the most of their lives. If we | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
stay, Britain will be in there, keeping a lid on the budget, | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
stripping away unnecessary regulation and seeing through the | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
commitments we have secured in this renegotiation. Ensuring that Britain | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
truly can have the best of both worlds. In the parts of Europe that | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
work for us and out of those that don't. In the single market, free to | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
travel around Europe, part of an organisation where cooperation on | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
Security and trade can make Britain and its partners safer and more | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
prosperous, but with guarantees that we will never be part of the euro, | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
never be part of Schengen, never be part of a European army, never be | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
forced to bail out the Eurozone with taxpayer money and never be part of | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
a European superstate. That is the prize on offer, and a clear path | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
that can lead to a fresh settlement the Britain in a reformed European | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
Union. A settlement that offers the best future for jobs, security and | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
strength for the country, a settlement, that as the manifesto | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
promised, this security and comfort at every stage of their lives. That | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
is what we are fighting for and I commend this statement to the house. | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I'm grateful to the Prime | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
Minister for sending me a copy of the statement 45 minutes ago, an | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
hour ago, I'm sorry. And I'm pleased he has decided to finally update the | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
house. But it is a bit unfortunate that despite his trumpeting of | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
sovereignty of national parliaments in the EU negotiations, the Prime | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
Minister didn't think to come and update our own Parliament first. I | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
hope he had a good day in Chippenham yesterday, but I note that he spent | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
a lot of time answering questions from journalists when it would have | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
been more respectful to the house to come here first and answer the | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
questions from members. In truth, Mr Speaker, his negotiation, in | :11:06. | :11:07. | |
reality, is a Tory party drama that is being played out in front of us, | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
as we see at the moment. The Labour Party is committed to keeping | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
Britain in the European Union because we believe it is in the best | :11:18. | :11:28. | |
framework for European trade and cooperation in the 21st-century and | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
in the best interests of people in this country. We believe the Prime | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
Minister has been negotiating the wrong goals in the wrong way to the | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
wrong reasons. All the sound and fury, the Prime Minister has ended | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
up exactly where he knew he would be, making the case to remain in | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
Europe, which is what he always intended, despite renegotiating | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
spectacles choreograph for TV cameras over the whole continent. Mr | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
Speaker, as his own backbenchers keep telling us, the proposals from | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
the European Council are simply tinkering around the edges. They | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
have little impact on what the EU delivers for workers in Britain | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
British business. We welcome the proposals for the majority of | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
national parliaments to have a veto over commission legislation, even if | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
it is heavily qualified, it seems the Prime Minister has finally moved | :12:19. | :12:20. | |
towards the Labour Party view on the issue and we welcome that. | :12:21. | :12:29. | |
Protecting non-Eurozone states is necessary but we cannot let these | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
proposals hamper efforts to regulate the financial sector, including | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
bankers bonuses. The crucial detail of the emergency brake on workers | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
benefits for EU migrants is entirely absent. When is that information | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
going to be made available? But in any case the Prime Minister calls | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
the strongest package ever on the abuse of free movement, but it | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
doesn't actually tackle the real problems around the impact on | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
migration -- of migration on jobs, wages and community. They demand | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
action to support public services in areas of high population growth, and | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
regulation to prevent the subsidising of low pay and the | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
grotesque exploitation of migrant workers by some very unscrupulous | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
employers. It is the same with competitiveness. Is the Prime | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
Minister out to strengthen genuinely competitive markets, or is this | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
proposal a figleaf for increasing presser to privatise public services | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
and a reduction of consumer standards, environmental protection, | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
all workers rights? This is why Labour will continue to oppose the | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
threats to services and rights from the negotiations and we need to | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
reform to ensure that all European governments have the right to | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
intervene and to protect publicly owned industries and services. This | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
side of the house is delighted that the Prime Minister has been forced | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
to back down on his hopes to water down workers rights. However, Mr | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
Speaker, we want to see workers rights further protected and | :14:13. | :14:17. | |
extended within the European Union. We need a strengthening of workers | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
rights in a really social Europe. And we want to see a democratic | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
reform to make the European Union decision-making more accountable to | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
its people. We must drive economic reform to put jobs and sustainable | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
growth at the centre of European policy and work with partners in | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
Europe to bring tax avoidance under control. That is so we can get a far | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
better deal than the Chancellor managed with Google last week. But, | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
Mr Speaker, to extend the employment protections we have to remain within | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
the European Union or leave the field to the Conservative Party to | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
make a bonfire of workers rights. The Prime Minister says he has | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
secured Britain's exclusion from Schengen, European army and a | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
European superstate. The Prime Minister is living in a never-never | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
land. We have never argued for those things and we don't intend to. We | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
need to work with allies in Europe to achieve more progressive reforms | :15:21. | :15:28. | |
and to build a more democratic Europe that delivers jobs, | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
prosperity and security for all of its people. We must do this | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
together, which is why when the referendum is finally held we will | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
be campaigning to remain a member but I end by asking the question to | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
the Prime Minister, does he now agree that once this smoke and | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
mirrors sideshow deal is finally done, we will get on with it, end | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
the uncertainty and the referendum will be held on June 23, 2016? Can I | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
thank the Right Honourable gentleman for his questions. First of all, on | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
the issue of making a statement today rather than yesterday, I felt | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
yesterday I was in possession of all the documents but I didn't think | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
every member of the house would be, so I thought it better to give | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
honourable members a day to read the documents and have the debate today. | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
It gave me the added advantage of being able to visit Chippenham, | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
which, of course, is the town of the right honourable gentleman's birth | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
and I was able to thank them for putting him on Earth and delivering | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
him safely to this place. In terms of the questions, first of all, he | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
criticises the issues we put on the table, getting out of ever closer | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
union -- union, waiting times for welfare and guarantees for fairness | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
in ins and outs. I know he did not read the Labour manifesto, but I | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
did, and all of those things were in the Labour manifesto. Labour | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
actually wanted a two-year welfare weight rather than a four-year wait, | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
but the other elements of the gauche elation were supported by Labour -- | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
of the negotiation. So they can feel they have a mandate for backing | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
these measures. He asked about the detail on the emergency migration | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
brake because there are gaps in the text, and he is right about that. We | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
need to secure the best possible outcome at the February Council. He | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
asked about the danger of exploitation of migrant workers, and | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
this is an area where we agree, as we have boosted the gang master | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
license authority and putting better coordination between them and the | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
National Crime Agency and we're actually making sure there are more | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
investigations and prosecutions. There is one area where we | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
profoundly disagree, and other socialist governments in Europe take | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
my view, which is that TTIP will be good for jobs, growth and business. | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
I'm not sure I should advise him to spend more time with trade unions, | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
but if he did with Swedish trade unions and other northern European | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
countries, he might find that they support TTIP because they want jobs | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
for their members. In the end, what I would say to the right honourable | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
gentleman and all members across this house, this is an important | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
moment for our country. Yes there will be areas of disagreement | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
between Conservative and Labour but we are involved in trying to get the | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
best negotiation for Britain. And the European Parliament plays a part | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
in that and the party of European Socialists does, so I urge more | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
members that if you want to have no more something for nothing and get | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
Britain out of ever closer union, and fairness between those in and | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
out of the euro and you want a more competitive and successful Europe, | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
let's fight this together. Mr Kenneth Clarke. | :18:51. | :19:04. | |
Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister has actually achieved more on the big | :19:05. | :19:10. | |
issues in this negotiation that I -- than I ever expected, and I suspect | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
more than hardline Eurosceptics ever expected, which is why they are | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
denouncing it so fiercely. But as he says, he still has to deliver it. | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
Does he accept he will have great difficulty persuading governments in | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
Central and Eastern Europe in particular to accept that their | :19:27. | :19:31. | |
citizens lawfully working here alongside English people in key | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
sectors like the health service and the construction industry should | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
have lower take-home pay in the first few years than their English | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
workmates? So, if he has to do offer something in exchange for that, | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
could he perhaps consider underlining our Nato commitment to | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
those countries as their biggest concern is future military | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
adventures by Putin's Russia. And to underline our role to not be the | :19:59. | :20:06. | |
leading military contribute through Nato to the European alliance would | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
be a good offer to make by deploying troops in order to get what is a | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
difficult concession for our partners to make in those countries? | :20:17. | :20:25. | |
My right honourable friend has huge experience of European negotiations, | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
both treaty negotiations and also ongoing negotiations on the Council | :20:30. | :20:31. | |
of ministers, so I'm grateful for what he says. He is right that these | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
are difficult issues. My argument is that while we have the free movement | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
of people that many British people take advantage of. The second point | :20:40. | :20:48. | |
I make is, when countries in Europe have problems they believe key | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
national interest, we have to be flexible enough to deal with them. | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
That is what the agreement is showing. And it shows they have the | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
support of the European Commission and that will reassure some of the | :21:05. | :21:06. | |
states in Europe who have misgivings. He is right that we can | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
reassure them about investment in their security, because I think that | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
is an important issue, with Putin to the east, with Isil to the south, so | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
this is a moment where we need to work together. We in the Scottish | :21:22. | :21:29. | |
National party warmly welcome the opportunity to make the positive | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
case for the European Union. It really matters that we are part of | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
the world's largest single market. It helps we can determine rules and | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
laws that applied for us and it matters we have a social Europe with | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
rights and protections for citizens and workers. Will the Prime Minister | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
commit to a positive campaign to remain in the European Union and not | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
resort to the negative tactics of project fear? On the Prime Minister | :21:55. | :22:02. | |
's negotiations, can iced suggest he stops presenting -- pretending to | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
have one major victory. He has not secured the treaty change and much | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
else besides. What is at stake is much much bigger than recent | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
discussions. It is about whether we are in the EU or not, and that is | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
what the debate across the UK will be in the run-up to the referendum. | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
The timing matters to electorates and the governments of Scotland, | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland as well is that there are elections in | :22:32. | :22:45. | |
London in May. The First Minister of Northern Ireland... I think the | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
first ministers of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland deserve a bit | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
more respect. From the Tory side. The First Minister of Northern | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
Ireland Arlene Foster and the Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
Martin McGuinness have written to the Prime Minister today. They say | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
the following and I think that honourable and right honourable | :23:08. | :23:09. | |
say. We believe that holding a say. We believe that holding a | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
referendum as early as June will mean that a significant part of the | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
run in parallel with those elections run in parallel with those elections | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
and risks confusing issues at a moment when clarity is required. We | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
believe that the European referendum is of vital importance to the future | :23:32. | :23:42. | |
of the whole UK. The debate should therefore be free of this. The Prime | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
Minister should defer until at least late in the year. Will the Prime | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
Minister confirm that he will be respectful of the views of the | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland and defer the | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
referendum beyond June? May I take the opportunity to ask the Prime | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
Minister to answer the question he has failed to do so so far, can he | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
confirmed there are still no safeguards in place which would stop | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the Scottish | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
electorate. Yes, of course I think when this campaign comes and we need | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
first and agreement and recommended position by the British Government | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
and the rest of it but when it comes in should be positive campaign. In | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
terms of treaty change and whether this is legally binding, as I | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
explained it is and it does envisage treaty change. In terms of timing, | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
it is a matter for the house who debated it and ruled out coinciding | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
with the Scottish, Welsh and London elections. The house did not rule | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
out holding a referendum at another time and specifically the former | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
First Minister said six weeks was the appropriate gap. Obviously we | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
have to wait to see if an agreement is reached but I disagree in that I | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
don't believe this is confusing issues, people are personally | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
capable, six or more weeks after one set of elections to consider | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
another. I know that the Leader of the Opposition whose party is in | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
control of Wales was pressing me to hold the referendum on the 23rd of | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
June. There is a range of opinions out there and the best thing to do | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
is to get the deal done and hold a referendum. This is all about | :25:38. | :25:48. | |
voters' trust. Why has my right honourable friend, in order to stay | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
in, bypassed so many promises and principles? Our national parliament, | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
he said at Bloomberg, is the root of our democracy. Not a majority of red | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
cards in other parliaments. That we would have for long treaty change -- | :26:07. | :26:16. | |
We were promised a fundamental change in our relationship with the | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
EU and that we would deal with excessive immigration numbers which | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
has now been whittled down to an issue about in work benefits | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
controlled by the European Court of Justice. Above all, the entire | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
package Mr Speaker, we were told and promised would be legally binding | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
and also irreversible. But now it will be stitched up by a political | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
decision, by the European Council, and not by a guaranteed treaty | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
change at the right time. And this, I have to say to the Prime Minister, | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
is a wholly inappropriate way of dealing with this matter. I have | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
great respect for my honourable friend but on the issue of whether | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
it is legally binding I do believe he is wrong, if the document is | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
agreed it would be an international law decision and the European Court | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
of Justice has do take that into account. He follows these things | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
closely, Denmark negotiated the same sort of opt outs and 23 years on | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
they clearly stand and are legally binding and those are the facts. He | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
asked whether we are meeting what we set out in terms of promises that we | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
made, we made clear promises to get Britain out of the ever closer | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
union. That is a promise we kept. Restrict welfare benefits for | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
immigrants and that is a promise we are keeping. Real fairness between | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
ins and outs, that is a promise we are keeping. In every area we have | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
met the promises that we set out. There will be those who say, we | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
didn't ask for enough or we need more reform. I believe these reforms | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
get to the heart of the concerns of the British people who feel this | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
organisation is too much of a political union, too bureaucratic | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
and not fair for non-euro countries. And we want control of immigration. | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
Those four things are largely delivered. I would ask my colleagues | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
on all sides of the house, I have sat on both sides and heard about | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
the Maastricht Treaty, Amsterdam Treaty, but I've never seen a Prime | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
Minister standing here with the unilaterally achieved declaration of | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
bringing powers to our country and that is what is within our grasp. | :28:41. | :28:48. | |
Will the Prime Minister join me in welcoming the launch of an | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
environmentalists for Europe today, quoted by Stanley Johnson the father | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
of the right Honourable Member for books bridge and South Ruislip. Will | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
he also welcome the article setting out the importance for science and | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
technology of remaining in the European Union, penned by the | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
brother for the right-armer Member for Uxbridge and South Ruislip! -- | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
the right Honourable Member. Will he tell him the importance of family | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
solidarity, and joining the swelling ranks of Johnsons. We can't have too | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
many Johnsons agreeing. He is right. There is also the columnist Rachel | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
Johnson, we will have to go after her. He makes an important point | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
about universities because we all complain rightly about the European | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
budget and that is why it is so important it has do fall every year, | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
but we did safeguard negotiations, the money that British universities | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
benefit from on a disproportionate basis. As for completing the happy | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
family pack of the Johnsons, we may have to wait longer. I would call | :30:01. | :30:09. | |
the Honourable Member if he were standing, but he isn't. As we are | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
driven towards an ever closer union and to political union, how does it | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
help to try to fit a couple of emergency brakes that lie within the | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
control of the EU and not us? Isn't the only way to control borders, tax | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
revenues and welfare systems, to leave and be a good European and let | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
them get on with their political union? Well, I don't agree with that | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
because I think actually what we are doing is making sure that it's very | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
clear that Britain is carved out of an ever closer union and that is an | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
advance. Indeed it is something that he and other colleagues have been | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
asking for quite rightly. I have always believed it is right because | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
our view is that we are not therefore political union but | :31:00. | :31:01. | |
cooperation and trade and working together on the things that matter. | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
These documents can change and this is all drafts, but one of the issues | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
is that the EU has gone further than I thought they would and said this | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
which colleagues will find interesting: the references to an | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
ever closer union do not offer a basis for extending the scope of any | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
provision of the treaties or secondary legislation. They should | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
not be used to support an extensive interpretation of the competences of | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
the union or the power of institutions as set out in the | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
treaty. That has never been said before in those ways and for those | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
who care about getting out of an ever closer union, this goes a long | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
way to achieving more in many ways that we asked for. The European | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
continent has seen flows of people and refugees, largely since the end | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
of the World War II and the Balkans are becoming more volatile and part | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
of Turkey is not behaving in a helpful way. Of any of the | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
negotiations the Prime Minister has been involved in, have any increased | :32:10. | :32:16. | |
the security of Europe or the UK? I would argue both, when it comes to | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
the security of the continent we recognise that Europe's external | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
border, although it is not ours, because run-off in Schengen, it does | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
matter and that is why we send more representatives to help with asylum | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
and immigration than any other country and why we are happy to do | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
even more and we work with Greece and Turkey. There is an important | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
change which increases the security of Britain going forward. First of | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
all, because we are not in Schengen, foreign nationals, we don't have to | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
let them into Britain and long may that be the case. The key changes | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
that the Home Secretary and I have secured about protecting the | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
immigration system from fraudsters and sham marriages and criminals and | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
people who get married to European nationals to get into our country, | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
frankly, they have become even more important and we will secure those | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
if this goes ahead from within the EU. Boris Johnson. CHEERING | :33:15. | :33:24. | |
Since you have been so kind as to call me, perhaps I could ask the | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
Prime Minister how these changes as a result of this negotiation will | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
restrict the volume of negotiations... Legislation coming | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
from Brussels, to restrict the treaty to assert the sovereignty of | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
this House of Commons and these houses of parliament. Let me take | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
those issues in turn. He is right to raise them. In terms of the | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
sovereignty of the House, that is what we did in 2010 through the | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
European referendum act, and something I am keen to do even more | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
on to put beyond doubt that the House of Commons is sovereign, and | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
that is something we will look to do at the same time as concluding the | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
negotiations. In terms of what are we doing to restrict the flow of | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
legislation from Brussels? The first time ever in here is a commitment | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
not only that Europe is to examine all of its competencies every year | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
to work out what should be returned to nation states, subsidiary in | :34:21. | :34:27. | |
action rather than words, but the proposal to cut Brussels regulations | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
with these bureaucracy cutting targets and that has never been | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
there before. If you look across this you can see welfare powers | :34:36. | :34:38. | |
coming back, immigration powers coming back that I have just spoken | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
about. Bailouts powers coming back and of course the massive return of | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
power achieved that the last parliament. The biggest return of | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
power from Brussels to Britain since joining the EU, and we have nailed | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
it down in these discussions to make sure they can't get round it. These | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
were all key objectives. I'm not saying it's perfect, or that the | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
European Union will be perfect after the deal, it certainly won't, but | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
will the British position be better and stronger? Yes, it will. Since | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
assuming office in 2010 the Prime Minister has on occasion tried to | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
his credit to limit the increases in the contributions by the UK to the | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
European Union budget. Varying degrees of success on that front. | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
Can he tell us as a result of the agreement, given that the UK pays ?9 | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
billion into the EU every year, can he tell us how much our contribution | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
will go down in net terms each year as a result of this agreement? We | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
have already done the European budget agreement which was the first | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
time, when you look at the seven year financial perspective that is | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
the budget over the last seven years and it will be lower over these | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
seven years than the last and that is a real terms cut, something no | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
one thought would possible. The exact amount of money we give does | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
depend sometimes on the growth and success of our economy and one of | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
the consequences of our strong growth and the difficult times in | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
the Eurozone is that it has meant a little bit more has been contributed | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
but the overall financial perspective is coming down and it is | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
good news for Britain. My right honourable friend has achieved, I | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
believe, quite a remarkable result because of the legally binding | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
nature of the document which he brings back if it is accepted by the | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
European Council. In that context he will know that one of the principal | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
problems that has bedevilled the UK relationship with the European Union | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
has been the capricious interpretation of the treaties, | :36:53. | :36:55. | |
sometimes to circumvent what the UK has believed to be its true treaty | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
obligations. In view of the remarkable specificity of this | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
document, does he agree with me that this will be a very powerful tool in | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
preventing that from happening in the future? I think my right | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
honourable friend makes an important point, if we stand back and ask how | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
it is that powers have been taken from this house to Brussels, it's | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
really happened in two ways. You have had a successive range of | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
treaties passing competencies from Britain to Brussels. That can't | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
happen any more because we legislated in the last parliament | :37:33. | :37:33. | |
for the referendum lock. So if me or any subsequent Prime | :37:34. | :37:41. | |
Minister tried to sign up to a treaty to pass powers, they | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
couldn't. The second way the powers get past is through the judgment of | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
the European Court of Justice, and that is why securing closer union is | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
important because it says if we can get this agreed, you cannot use that | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
clause to drive a ratchet of competency is going from Britain to | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
Brussels. So the two routes for further integration where Britain is | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
concerned have been effectively blocked off. Can the Prime Minister | :38:07. | :38:15. | |
confirm that nothing in this renegotiation waters down important | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
security cooperation at the EU level? Like intelligence sharing, | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
joint investigations and the EU arrest warrant. And that when a deal | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
is done, finally, he will join members on this side of how -- the | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
house to make a strong case that our membership of the EU helps bring | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
criminals to justice and keeps Britain safe. The security argument | :38:37. | :38:46. | |
is an important one. When the Europe minister was asked questions | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
yesterday, is it consistent to say, as we do in the document that | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
security is a national competence, so is it consistent to say that and | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
also say it's important for security? It's important that when | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
we come to policing and intelligence services and those core competencies | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
they are for the house and for government decision. But there are | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
ways we can cooperate in Europe to make ourselves safer, making sure we | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
know when criminals cross borders and when we exchange passenger name | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
records to keep a safe, which is why when we opted out of the Justice and | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
home affairs area, repatriating about 100 powers to Britain, we | :39:32. | :39:35. | |
stayed in the ones that mattered for keeping us safe. I think that's | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
important in demonstrating that we both maintain national security as a | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
national competence but work with partners to keep our people say. Can | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
I first say to the Leader of the Opposition that I prefer what he | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
describes as the drama of the Conservative Party to the tragedy of | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
his Labour Party. Mr Speaker, whether or not an emergency brake | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
kicks in is ultimately the decision of the European union, and the level | :40:04. | :40:11. | |
of education is a decision for the European Union, not the UK. | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
Ultimately the benefit level sent abroad is a decision on the EU, not | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
the UK. Is it clear we are not sovereign in these areas and we do | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
not have independent control in these policy areas, and is at the | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
decision on the -- on the referendum on decisions on laws and borders to | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
be determined here, not applied by someone else. With great respect for | :40:36. | :40:42. | |
my right honourable friend, I thought he explained clearly on the | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
radio that he would be for leaving the EU, even without the | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
renegotiation. He was very honest and frank about it, and in terms of | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
dramas and tragedies he will echo the old insurance advert that we | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
should not turn a drama into a crisis. What I would say about the | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
emergency brake is that the European Commission have been clear, and it | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
says in the documents, that they consider the kind of information | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
provided by the UK shows the type of exceptional situation that the | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
intended to cover and exists in the intended to cover and exists in the | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
UK today. So I am all for maximising the sovereignty of the house and our | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
government and the ability to do things, but we said we wanted no | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
more something for nothing and we want the welfare brake and we want | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
to be able to deny benefits to people before they have been here | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
four years, and this says it can happen as soon as the legislation | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
allows. Could I reassure the Prime Minister that in my estimation most | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
of us in Northern Ireland agree with him that we would be much more | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
successful in the European Union van out, and could we urge that the | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
referendum be held later than June so all aspects could be fully | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
discussed and debated? But could I ask him if and when the negotiations | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
are completed that there is a positive staying in result for the | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
referendum, so can he see the UK taking a more positive and engaged | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
role within the structures of the European union? What I would say to | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
the honourable gentleman is, were there to be agreement in February, I | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
don't think a four-month period before a referendum would be too | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
short. I think four months is a good amount of time to get across the key | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
arguments and facts and figures and the both sides to be able to make | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
their points. I think it will be equally important in Northern | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
Ireland and I give him the guarantee that if there is an agreement, I | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
will personally spend time in Northern Ireland making the points I | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
think most important. As for the role of the EU in helping to bring | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
about the successful transformation of Northern Ireland, there have been | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
some very positive moves in terms of grants and structural funds to help | :43:03. | :43:10. | |
build a strong economy that we need. As a former Secretary of State for | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
Social Security, can I ask my right honourable friend to clarify the | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
status of the agreement on migrant benefits? The EU has no competence | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
over benefits rules in member states unless they conflict with the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
freedom of movement clause in the treaty, so if the proposed changes | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
do not conflict with the treaty, we could have introduced them | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
immediately without using negotiating clout on this issue, but | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
if the changes do not conflict with the treaty they will be struck down | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
by the EU court unless the treaty is changed first. What I would say is | :43:46. | :43:55. | |
that the view is that this emergency brake can be brought in under the | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
existing treaties but only with legislation through the European | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
Parliament and on an accelerated timetable the leader of one of the | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
parties said it could take one, two, three months. What it makes clear is | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
you can act in this way legally, and crucially, in my view in the view of | :44:17. | :44:26. | |
the British public, but quickly. When the Prime Minister meets the | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
various leaders of the EU, can he make it clear to them that the | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
result of the referendum is to be decided by the black -- British | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
people and they should not be trying to interfere in any way of the | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
British's peoples views, and will he say to the Irish leader that it not | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
helpful and in fact very complimentary to the people of | :44:48. | :44:49. | |
Northern Ireland that he implied that of the British people decided | :44:50. | :44:57. | |
to leave the European Union that it would threaten the peace process. I | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
absolutely agree with the honourable lady that this is a decision to the | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
British people and British people alone. We certainly don't want to | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
hear lectures from other people about that. Because this does affect | :45:09. | :45:17. | |
Britain's relations with the rest of the world and other issues, there | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
may well be people who want to make a positive contribution, and that is | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
a matter for them. The only thing I would say about the Irish leader is | :45:26. | :45:27. | |
that the priest processes secure and that the priest processes secure and | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
we must keep going, but I do believe he is a friend of the United Kingdom | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
-- the peace process is secure. He spoke very strong for Britain at the | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
European Council and was influential in trying to build goodwill and | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
saying that all in the European Union should recognise that of a | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
country has a national interest that is at stake and needs things fixed | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
we need to be a flexible enough organisation with, because otherwise | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
we won't be able to sort anything out. The Prime Minister has said | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
that if we vote to leave the EU he wants to continue as Prime Minister, | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
a combination I would fully support. And he certainly fancies himself as | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
a negotiator. So given that we have a net contribution each year to the | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
EU of ?19 billion, and given that we have a trade deficit with the | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
European Union of ?62 billion, and if we were to leave we would be the | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
single biggest export market of the European Union, does he think he has | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
the ability to negotiate a free trade agreement from outside of the | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
EU without handing over ?19 billion per year? I have great respect for | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
my honourable friend who I think wanted to leave the EU whatever came | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
out of these negotiations. And I am sure he will make his argument is | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
powerfully. Obviously, you have to look at all of the issues, and once | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
this debate starts, people want to look at the alternatives. Would | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
Britain be better off in a customs union arrangement like turkey? Would | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
we be better off in a free trade agreement? Would we be better than | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
the situation of Norway and Iceland? I think the Norway example is not a | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
strong example because they actually contribute more per head to the EU | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
and look at the EU legislation passed in Brussels but I think it | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
will be an important part of the debate to come. As the Prime | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
Minister has so far said in the exchanges, he doesn't seem to have | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
persuaded any of the critics on his side over the virtues of his | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
negotiations. He may have persuaded the Home Secretary for reasons that | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
we don't understand, but apparently none of the other critics. Maybe he | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
can help me out, I don't know. This is a very important issue for our | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
country, but in the end it won't be decided in this chamber. All of us | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
will have to reach our own conclusions and the only thing I | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
would say to honourable members is that if you passionately believe in | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
your heart that Britain is better off outside the EU, you should vote | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
that way and even if you think it's on balance that they are better off, | :48:16. | :48:24. | |
do it. Don't take a view because of what your constituency association | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
might say or you are worried about a boundary review or you think it | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
might be advantageous this way or that way. Do what is in your heart. | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
If you think it's right for Britain, do that. Since no one else has done | :48:35. | :48:47. | |
it so far after nearly an hour, and as my mum always says I should say | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
thank you, can I thank the Brymon is the beginning is a choice in the | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
first place. What is the point of having an emergency brake on your | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
car if the back-seat driver, namely the European Commission, has the | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
power to tell you when and for how long you should put your brake on | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
that -- foot on the brake pedal? This is a different situation when | :49:15. | :49:17. | |
they are telling us in advance that because of the pressures we face, | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
this is a break that we can use and a break we can use relatively | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
rapidly after a referendum. I think it would make a difference. The | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
facts are these, and 40% of EU migrants coming to Britain are | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
accessing the in work benefits system. The average payment per | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
family is ?6,000. Don't tell me ?6,000 quite a major financial | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
inducement. I it's over 10,000 people getting over ?10,000 a year. | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
The benefits system, because you get instant access, is an unnatural | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
drawer to the country so one of the things we should do to fix | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
immigration is change it and that is what we are going to agree. Will he | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
acknowledge that the referendum will be won and lost on bigger issues | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
than the renegotiation, not least on the judgment that the greater | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
challenges facing us better solved when countries work together. So | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
again can I ask him to welcome the establishment of environmentalists | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
for Europe which recognises that cross-border problems require | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
cross-border solutions and highlights the crucial role the EU | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
weighs in protecting wildlife and nature in the country. Where you | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
have genuine cross-border problems you need to work across borders to | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
make sure you have a strong solution and I think the key issues our | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
prosperity and security, but insecurity comes environmental | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
security. Britain at the Paris accords was able to play a strong | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
role because of the example of getting carbon emissions down and | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
having a strong plan for the future encourage other countries to do the | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
same thing. That brought about a better deal for the best -- rest of | :51:00. | :51:00. | |
the world. Much has been said about the | :51:01. | :51:09. | |
Conservative Party manifesto that he and the rest of these benches fought | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
on. I have an electronic copy of that in front of me now. Should the | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
Prime Minister succeed in his negotiations he will have achieved | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
not only the letter of what we promised, but also the spirit, and | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
perhaps most important of all, it would give the British people a | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
chance to vote for a reformed Europe ought to vote for the uncertainty of | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
leaving. I am very grateful to my honourable friend. I do think that | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
we are delivering the manifesto in fact and spirit, not just by doing | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
something people we thought we would not deliver on, which is to hold a | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
referendum. I remember sitting over there when Tony Blair stood here and | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
said let battle commence, let the referendum begin over the | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
constitutional treaty, and the fact that that referendum was never held | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
in many ways poisoned a lot of the debate in Britain. That is why the | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
manifesto is so clear about the referendum and the renegotiation | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
aims. Some people will say the better approach is to go in, kick | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
over the table, walk out of the door and say I won't come back in unless | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
you give me a list of impossible demands. That was never the plan we | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
set out. The plan we set out was to address, specifically, the biggest | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
concerns of the British people about competitiveness, closer union, | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
fairness and about migration and that is what this negotiation, if we | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
can complete it, that is what I believe it will do. Can I | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
congratulate the Prime Minister on the progress he has made in tackling | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
what I think voters from all parties see as unfair | :52:45. | :52:55. | |
ness of workers claiming benefits in the UK. If we left the European | :52:56. | :53:02. | |
Union would this put at risk our core operation in Calais with French | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
authorities to protect UK borders? -- cooperation. She raises an | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
important point and there is no doubt in my mind that the agreement | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
is incredibly beneficial. It works well for both countries, but for | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
Britain, being able to have border controls in France and dealing with | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
people there, that is something we should be very proud of and do | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
everything we can to sustain. It is part of the European cooperation | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
that we have. Given the difficulty of getting any change to the EU | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
membership opposed by the other 27 countries, what we have got is as | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
good as anyone might have expected and more and I congratulate the | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
Prime Minister on his achievement. But will my right honourable friend | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
confirmed that once the European Council has made its decision he | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
will respect the views of those ministers who might publicly | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
expressed the opinion that the UK should now leave the EU and that the | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
careers of those ministers in this Government would be jeopardised or | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
threatened as a consequence? I can certainly give my honourable friend | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
that assurance. We are still in the process of negotiation and the | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
manifesto said that we wanted the best possible deal for Britain and | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
we will work on that together. If the deal is agreed, whether it is in | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
February or later if it takes more time then there will be a cabinet | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
meeting to decide if we can take the recommended position to the British | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
people and if that position is to recommend we stay in a reformed | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
European Union then yes, ministers who have long-standing views and | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
want to campaign in another direction are able to do that. The | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
Government will still have a position. Not a free for all but a | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
clear Government position from which ministers can depart. They should | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
not suffer disadvantage because they take that view. The Prime Minister | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
has now listened to the views of the EU president and the other 27 heads | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
of state in the European Union about his proposals. In the spirit of his | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
own one nation respect agenda, will he also now listened to the heads of | :55:24. | :55:30. | |
governments in the devolved parliaments of the UK who are | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
unilateral in their belief that his preferred referendum timetable is | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
disrespectful and wrong? In terms of the respect agenda my right | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
honourable friend the Europe Minister has had conversations with | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
their heads the devolved administrations. In terms of the | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
referendum date, we need an agreement first, but I don't believe | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
that a four month period, six weeks or more between one set and another | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
of elections, I don't believe that is in any way disrespectful and I | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
have great respect for the electorate in our countries that | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
they can separate these issues and make a decision. I commend my right | :56:11. | :56:18. | |
honourable friend. King to his commitment to offer the British | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
people a choice on this matter and I support very much what he has said | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
about maximising the sovereignty of this Parliament. Would he not agree | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
that the proposals to agree the support of continental parliaments | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
to block EU directives that this Parliament opposes does not | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
constitute a fundamental reform that he seeks? What I would argue is that | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
the red card proposal is something new. Something that did not | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
previously exist. Of course it will take a lot of communication between | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
parliaments but where it is more powerful than the previous proposals | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
is that this would be an absolute block, if you get the right number | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
of parliaments together, the commission wouldn't go ahead. It | :57:04. | :57:11. | |
goes alongside the subsidiary test which takes place, getting Britain | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
out of an ever closer union, it is one more measure that demonstrates | :57:16. | :57:23. | |
we believe in national parliaments. There is a much broader case for | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
continued UK membership of the EU beyond the four items in the Prime | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
Minister's negotiations, based on jobs, economic interests, collective | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
security and our place in the world. Does the Prime Minister accent that | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
if we voted to leave the European Union, but then found ourselves | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
still having to accept all of the rules of the single market, that | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
would be to swap our position as a rule maker for that of being a rule | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
taker and that is not control and it is not the right future for Great | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
Britain. As ever the right Honourable Member speaks clearly and | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
powerfully. There are bigger arguments that will take place over | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
the coming months and I'm not over claiming about the four areas we | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
have made progress but I merely say that they relate to the four things | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
that most concern the British people about Europe and we are somewhere | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
down the road of fixing them. The point he makes about being a rule | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
maker and not a rule taker, is vital. Written is a major industrial | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
economy with a huge car and aerospace industry and important | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
financial services. We need to be around the table making the rules | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
because otherwise there is a danger that the rules will be made against | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
you and that is what we need to avoid. Among the other important | :58:49. | :58:56. | |
measures successfully negotiated by my right honourable friend the Prime | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
Minister I welcome in particular the recognition of the need to be more | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
competitive to exploit the untapped potential of the single market and | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
press on with vital trade negotiations with the United States | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
right honourable gentleman confirm right honourable gentleman confirm | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
that when these negotiations are I hope happily concluded, the national | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
debate must move on to the real questions relating to the safety, | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
economic security and prosperity of the UK and the role we are to play | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
in the world over the decades to come. My right honourable friend is | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
absolutely right and we will be holding this debate at a time of | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
great uncertainty and insecurity in our world. We have Russia with its | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
destabilisation of the Ukraine to our East and the horrors of Daesh to | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
the south. This is a time when we need to work closely with our | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
neighbours and friends to make sure that we can deliver greater security | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
for our people. It is true to say that of our security is our special | :00:02. | :00:10. | |
relationship with the United States and these things are vital, but in | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
the modern world passenger name records and criminal records | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
information systems, sharing information about terrorism and | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
fighting together against the Islamist extremism, that we see not | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
just in Syria and Iraq but tragically in our own countries | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
across the European Union. These are important issues. Can I wish him and | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
the British negotiation team well for what remains of this process? | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
Will he acknowledge that all of the major threats and challenges Britain | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
faces as a country from international terrorism to climate | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
change demands that we work closely and collaboratively with our close | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
neighbours and not relegate ourselves to a position of isolation | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
and impotence? My judgment in all of this is that I want things that | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
increase the power and the ability of Britain to fix problems and deal | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
with our own security and stability and RM prosperity. What matters is | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
whether we are able to deal with these things now. -- our own | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
prosperity. We need to get rid of the pettiness on small things that | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
don't actually make a difference and focus on prosperity and jobs. That | :01:25. | :01:32. | |
is the focus. A large number of Members are seeking to catch my eye. | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
The Prime Minister on several occasions has been here for long | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
periods to respond to questions but there is now a premium on brevity | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
which I'm sure will be demonstrated now. Can I point out to my right | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
honourable friend that the former director-general of the Council of | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
ministers has said, and I quote, ministers has said, and I quote, | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
there is no possibility to make a promise that will be legally binding | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
to change the treaty later. He then uses a word that I would describe as | :02:04. | :02:11. | |
male bovine excrement. Can the Prime Minister give a single example of | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
where the European Court of Justice has ruled against the treaties in | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
favour of an international agreement such as this one he is proposing? | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
Well, as I said to our right honourable friend the Member for | :02:26. | :02:34. | |
Stone, Denmark negotiated the same opt outs and they still stand 20 | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
years on and are no binding. -- and are binding. In July 2005, four | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
weeks after suicide bombers murdered 52 people on the London transfer | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
network, Hussain Osman tried to blow himself up on a Hammersmith and City | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
Juba line, fleeing to Italy and speedily extradited to face justice | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
in this country in a matter of weeks rather than the years that bilateral | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
extradition process would have taken. Can the Prime Minister | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
reassure me and honourable Members that nothing he does in the | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
renegotiation process will put the functioning of the European arrest | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
warrant at risk? I can give her that reassurance, the House debated the | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
issue as we opted out of much of Justice and home affairs but we | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
specifically opted in to the arrest warrant because it has proven | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
valuable, not least in the case that she said and other cases, making | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
sure that serious criminals can be returned to Britain. If we stay in | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
her report -- if we stay in a reformed European Union it is more | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
of a question about putting back in place something is powerful is what | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
we have. I very much admire the tenacity, courage and skill with | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
which my right honourable friend is defending and polishing this deal, | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
but what happens to our 2010 manifesto commitments on the charter | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
of fundamental rights and social and unemployment law? Well, we have put | :04:10. | :04:17. | |
in place as I have said, and as my honourable friend the former Local | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
Government Secretary of State said, put in place the things we put in | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
the manifesto, the manifesto in which he and I stood at the last | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
election. In terms of the social chapter, the social chapter no | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
longer exists and it is merely part of the single market legislation. | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
What we have secured for the first time is an annual reduction in terms | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
of legislation to try to reduce the level of legislation and it can of | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
course include the sorts of legislation that he is talking | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
about. In the words of John Kenneth Galbraith, all great leaders have | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
one characteristic in common, a willingness to confront the major | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
anxiety of their people in their time. This and not much else is the | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
essence of leadership. When the negotiations are complete will you | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
confront anxiety and unequivocally come out in favour of EU membership? | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
I have been very clear, if we achieve this negotiation I will work | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
hard to convince people that Britain should stay in a reformed European | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
Union and it would be very much in the national interest. I'm not a | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
great JK Galbraith expert but when people have serious concerns as | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
people do in our country about levels of immigration it is right to | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
act to address those concerns and that is what part of this is about. | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
In welcoming the Prime Minister's very substantial progress towards an | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
agreement which would allow us to stay in, does he agree with me that | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
one of the most important aspects is that it is legally binding and gives | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
a lot more clarity about Britain's role within the EU, both in terms of | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
the new dispensation but also in relation to existing treaties and | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
therefore it is extremely powerful from a legal point of view and can | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
only be revoked if we agree and it has embedded force into it. We have | :06:18. | :06:26. | |
now heard from the former Attorney General and former Solicitor General | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
who have great legal expertise, this would be legally binding as a matter | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
of international law and of course it still is to be agreed but when | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
agreed it would be irreversible because it would only be amended or | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
revoked if all Member states Britain included decided to reverse it. | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
Bearing lies the irreversible nature of it. I want us to stay in the | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
European Union but the Prime Minister indicated he would seek to | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
address the unfairness in the European sugar market which affects | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
cane sugar refiners like Tate Lyle in my constituency. I wonder whether | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
he can tell us if he has made progress on the issue. I think I | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
will have to write to the honourable gentleman about that issue. The | :07:12. | :07:21. | |
commission might agree that we have met the requirements to have a break | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
but that is his decision and they may not agree in a few years' time | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
at every step of these negotiations unfortunately still relies on | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
somebody else giving us permission to make decisions for this country | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
like the thousands of harmonised directives that we struggle with day | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
in day out. Businesses have to ask permission of other countries and | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
this is not what the British public wants. | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
Let me deal with the harmonised directives. Because we have the | :07:49. | :07:57. | |
test, the European Council and commission will have to look at all | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
of these competences and return to the member state those that are no | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
longer necessary. It does seem important progress in the area she | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
states. On the issue of migration, the European Commission said as far | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
as they were concerned, Britain qualifies now. Where she is right is | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
that we know that as proposed, this is the ability to stop somebody | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
getting full access to benefits for fall -- for four years but we also | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
need to fill in the detail about how long the mechanism Larsson when it | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
can be removed. In the Welsh general election, how will his conservative | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
colleagues are given the economic stability that Wales so sorely needs | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
when it might be overthrown by the referendum six weeks later? The | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
British people, including people in Wales, voted for a government that | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
would deliver economic stability but would also put this great question | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
about Britain's future in front of the British people. As I have said | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
before, if you look at public opinion in Wales, England, Scotland | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
and Northern Ireland it is all, to a greater or lesser extent, in favour | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
of holding a referendum. Some I think this is the right policy the | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
whole of the UK. My right honourable friend has talked about what will | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
happen with the European Court of Justice. Does he recall that under | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
the Lisbon Treaty there is a requirement, a treaty requirement | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
that the European Union should join the European Convention on human | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
rights. That has not been implemented because the European | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
Court of Justice says it's incompatible with EU treaties. | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
Doesn't it show that, ultimately, although they might have to take | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
something into account, they don't have to comply. I would say two | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
things to my honourable friend. Firstly, I don't think the EU should | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
join the European Convention on human rights. That has been the | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
British government position. Secondly, we are committed in the | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
manifesto to change the British perspective on the European Court of | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
rights and have our own Bill and we will come forward with proposals | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
that shortly. British workers benefit from employment rights | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
guaranteed at the EU level, so can the Prime Minister assure the house | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
that is renegotiation does not affect important employment rights, | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
including rights to paid leave, equal rights for part-time workers | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
and fair pay for agency workers? All of these rules are now no longer in | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
a social chapter but are part of single market legislation. We have | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
the opportunity now to make sure that single mark -- single market | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
legislation is something that is proportionate in need to be done at | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
the European level rather than national level and that is the | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
ongoing conversation they should be under the rules set out here. Does | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
my right honourable friend agree that all the documents issued | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
yesterday, the most significant set of words are in Donald Tusk's letter | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
to the members of the Council, where he says that in light of the UK's | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
special situation under the treaties it is not committed further | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
political integration. Isn't this precisely what the majority of the | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
British people have always wanted, and to revive an old phrase, to be | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
in Europe but not run by Europe? Is that not what he is achieving? I | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
thought the letter was interesting in that regard. The truth is that | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
Britain's membership of this organisation is different to other | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
members of the organisation because of the document sets out, when not | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
in the euro and we don't participate in Schengen and we keep our own | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
border controls and we choose whether to participate in measures | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
of freedom, security and justice. We opted out of the Justice and home | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
affairs area and now we are opting out of ever closer union. Ala | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
membership is different and we need to make that case as we go forward. | :11:53. | :12:01. | |
With the South of Ireland being by far Northern Ireland's biggest | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
export market, will the Prime Minister state what assessment he | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
has made of the impact leaving the EU would have on the border in | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
Ireland, whether continued free movement in Ireland can be | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
guaranteed, and the damage that Customs border could on Northern | :12:18. | :12:24. | |
Ireland's financial security? The honourable lady asks important | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
questions and I think I'm writing saying that in the amendment to the | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
European referendum Bill, and accepted here, there is a series of | :12:33. | :12:43. | |
documents the form proposals and the alternatives and the obligations of | :12:44. | :12:51. | |
rights in the European Union and through this process we should | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
address the important question that affects one part of the United | :12:55. | :13:05. | |
Kingdom quite intensely. In 2014/ 15, economic migrants came from the | :13:06. | :13:07. | |
European Union, none of whom would be deterred by anything we have | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
heard so far. Ever closer union might be taken out of the preamble | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
but it remains in the central text of all of the treaties. On | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
protecting the inner hand-outs, all that will happen is there will be a | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
discussion and there are plenty of discussions the European Union and | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
on competitiveness, that has been part of the European Union's own | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
ambition since the Lisbon agenda of 1999. The thin gruel has been | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
further watered down. My right honourable friend has a fortnight, I | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
think, in which to salvage his reputation as a negotiator. Let me | :13:42. | :13:50. | |
say that my honourable friend is extremely articulate the Lemi take | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
two of the points and say why I think, actually he has got it wrong. | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
Firstly, the principles that will be legally binding in terms of how | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
currencies other than the euro are treated, is a real advance. That | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
means, for instance, never again can the European Union suggest that you | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
can only have the clearance of euros in Eurozone countries. That would | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
have been disastrous for the financial service industries. They | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
cannot even promote that again. That is so important, because if we | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
weren't in the European Union we wouldn't have that protection at | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
all. He doesn't understand the power of the principles of no | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
discrimination and no disadvantage and no cost so we cannot bail out | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
European countries as we were nearly forced to do last summer. One ever | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
closer union, I would encourage him to look at section C, page nine of | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
the documents. References to a closer union do not offer a base for | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
extending the scope of the treaties. As far as I can remember, and I was | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
advising a minister when we had the Maastricht debates and I sat through | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
watching Lisbon and Nice and Amsterdam, this has never been set | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
out that way. This means you cannot use ever closer union to drive the | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
process of integration. If we have got in this house the protection we | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
have to have a referendum if any minister ever suggest we sign up to | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
another treaty that passes power, that is protection one, and we have | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
this, we are well on our way to saying that our different sort of | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
membership of the EU is not only safeguarded but it is being extended | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
because not only are we out of the euro and Schengen, we're out of ever | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
closer union as well. Once the workshop of the world, Birmingham in | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
the West Midlands is now the industrial heartland of Britain. Key | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
to that success is inward investment, including that of the | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
3000 strong Jaguar factory in my constituency. Key to inward | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
investment is continuing membership of the European Union. Does the | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
Prime Minister agree with me that it is strongly in the best interests of | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
Midland workers that we remain part of Europe? Provided we get the | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
agreement we need, yes, of course I do. We are seeing an industrial | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
renaissance in the West Midlands, a lot of it around the automotive | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
industry. I've had a number of meetings with car manufacturing | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
members and I had conversations with Jaguar Land Rover and others. I was | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
with BMW in Germany and they make the point that Britain is a great | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
centre for manufacturing and engines, and this comes to the point | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
that the standards set in Europe that being a maker and not a rule | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
taker. Following the Prime Minister's response to my recent PMQ | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
I have taken the advice and cleared the diary for a debate tomorrow in | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
this chamber on Parliamentary sovereignty. Given the importance of | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
sovereignty to the new negotiations, will he join us in the debate and | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
perhaps respond on behalf of the government? I'm very sorry. I've not | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
been able to clear my diary. Tomorrow I have the Syria conference | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
and many people are coming at night, over 30 presidents and prime | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
ministers and the aim of trying to raise twice as much for the Syrian | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
refugee appeal this year as we did last year, but I know my honourable | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
friend is keen to have a word and I will make sure we fix that up. There | :17:27. | :17:37. | |
are 14,000 jobs in old dependent on Europe and I'm very much in favour | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
that we remain. But the Prime Minister mentioned in his statement | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
that the emergency brake would apply immediately after the EU referendum, | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
yet it was reported yesterday that it would be at least 18 months. Can | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
he clarify which it is and will he report on any other transitional | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
arrangements or measures? What I said is because this is not relying | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
on changes to the treaty but will be European legislation, it can enter | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
into force relatively shortly after the referendum but it will require | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
some legislation and the leader will be one of the biggest parties in the | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
European Parliament and he said it could be a matter of months. You | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
could accelerate the process. It goes to show how much you need to | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
bind everyone into the agreement that we hope to achieve in the | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
coming weeks so that the parliament is able to pass the legislation as | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
swiftly as possible. Does my right honourable friend agree that one of | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
the biggest concerns about the direction of travel in the European | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
Union is that there are countries within it, the Eurozone members that | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
wish to integrate more deeply in terms of protecting their country. | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
We have our own country -- currency but it was an incredibly important | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
part of the negotiation ambition that we should be protected from any | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
discriminatory measure that might prevent their ability to integrate | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
more closely. Is that not why the proposed package is significant and | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
that we have not just the position of two different speeds, but also a | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
different destination from our European partners which gives us a | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
relatively advantageous position. I'll make two points. This reference | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
to a different destination is significant. We talk about Europe | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
moving at different speeds but we might not all be trying to achieve | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
the same ends. That is important. On the in and outs section, the most | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
technical and in some ways the most impenetrable, there simple | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
principles like the no cost principles as I referred to. There | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
is also a very important concept in their that should we need to take | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
action against financial supervision to secure our own financial | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
stability, nothing should get in the way that, and think that's a very | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
important clarification for the good of the country. With over 80% of | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
businesses in my constituency wanting to stay in the EU, and over | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
50% of jobs are linked to trade with the EU, so the member should be as | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
vital for trade and prosperity, so this side of the house is united to | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
campaign to stay in Europe. Don't we need now to end the uncertainty and | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
have the referendum as soon as possible and campaign to stay in the | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
EU. I am keen to end the uncertainty, obviously, but I'm not | :20:29. | :20:30. | |
in a hurry if we can't get the right deal. We have set out what needs to | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
be done and I think it's possible to be agreed in February, but we have | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
to make sure we are patient, because getting this right really matters. | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
Mr Speaker, week or so ago 2500 people turned up at Kettering to the | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
first Go conference which is a grassroots organisation to get out | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
of the EU and we had cross-party speakers at it and we are doing the | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
same in Manchester. The thing that has not been commentated on, and I | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
had an e-mail from the Prime Minister about this yesterday was | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
the fact that he rules nothing out. This is a process where he might not | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
get what he wants. We understand he might not get to Manchester because | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
he is in negotiation, but could he come on the debris -- the 19th of | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
February if he does not get what he wants, and would it be possible to | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
drop off a tie at Downing Street for him? My honourable friend is always | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
very generous with his time, his advice and now also with his | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
clothing. The tie is here, and I think the Blazer will soon follow. I | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
won't be able to come on the 19th of February. I hope I will still be in | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
the thick of negotiations, but I will of course report back to the | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
house and give the results. It is a very dairy site, I am bound to say, | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
but who am I to object to that -- eight bearish item. I have suddenly | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
been afflicted by a loss of hearing. I hope my ties knot to Gerrish. When | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
the Prime Minister welcomes Northern Ireland, will he visit the | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
devastating fishing villages, and the families angered by EU court | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
rulings on terrorists dishes and is, and manufacturers smothered in red | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
tape is and all of the companies whose employers run the gauntlet at | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
Calais every week because of the chaotic EU immigration policy, and | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
would he explained to them how he's red card. Any further destructive EU | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
legislation when it requires him to get in 12 weeks 50% of parliaments | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
across the EU to oppose proposals backed by their own governments? | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
When I come to Northern Ireland I want to address those issues and | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
when we look at the reform we have had in the fisheries policy, that | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
has lead to improvement, but there is more to be done. When we look at | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
the rules that manufacturers face, we have shown how we will cut | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
bureaucracy, and in terms of one of the problems that has been happening | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland in terms of sham | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
marriages and people trying to get around immigration controls, that is | :23:20. | :23:21. | |
expressly addressed in these documents. We need now to carry them | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
into force. While the Prime Minister is trying his best to renegotiate | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
the position, would he not agree that the reforms as they stand do | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
not do anything to make the immigration system in this country | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
fairer regardless of where people come from in the world? I do think | :23:42. | :23:53. | |
they do make it fairer, because the year -- for years we have not been | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
able to apply some of the rules regarding marriages between British | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
nationals to European nationals, but now we can do this. All sorts of | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
sham marriages and forces and criminals who have been getting | :24:09. | :24:10. | |
round our immigration controls will no longer be able to. The Sunday | :24:11. | :24:17. | |
Times has reported that as part of the negotiations the Prime Minister | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
is seeking to deny UK citizens access to the fundamental rights | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
guaranteed by the EU charter as part of his plan to restore the | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
sovereignty of Parliament, does he appreciate that in the well-known | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
case of McCormick against the Lord Advocate, the sovereignty is a | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
distinctly English prince or, in Scotland the people are sovereign | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
and they do not want human rights to be reduced. -- English principle. | :24:42. | :24:50. | |
People in this country have had human rights long before the | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
European union human rights Charter was even thought of, so we do not | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
need these to be in force in Britain because we have our own Parliament | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
and our own rights and soon we will have our own British Bill of Rights, | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
as well. Families at home will be thinking about what the future holds | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
and I think all aspects of disagreement are important to our | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
constituents, but most of all is the protection for non-Euro countries. | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
Will the Prime Minister guarantee this house that he will look at the | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
detail, that there are no loopholes, as the Eurozone integrate, that we | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
are not discriminated against? I will certainly do that, this will be | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
complex, because the Eurozone countries want to be able to | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
integrate more, and they want to know that we are not trying to block | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
the necessary action that they need to take, but clearly what we want to | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
make sure is that they will not make us disadvantaged as single market | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
members. I'm sure the prime and Mr will welcome the news that the | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
largest offshore wind farm in the world is to be built off the East | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
Yorkshire coast -- the Prime Minister will welcome. Creating 2000 | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
jobs in the Humber Estuary and investing ?6 billion, so this shows | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
that what ever the debate and frustration is, it is part of our | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
country's interest to be involved in the EU as a leading player. I'm | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
delighted with the news, we have given a lot of support to this | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
energy and we have the biggest offshore wind market anywhere in the | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
world because we have given the regulatory certainty that the | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
industry needed. What they are achieving in the east of England is | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
not just one big factory but an industrial regeneration of all the | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
industries that relate to it, but irrespective of the outcome, we have | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
got to make sure that Britain is the best place in the world to invest | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
and grow a business, and I'm sure the arguments will come, there will | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
be many that will want us to stay and making the argument, that will | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
make us even more attractive, but we have got to wait until the starting | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
gun is fired. The scope and scale of this reform package does actually | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
reflect the key interests of a widespread range of people in this | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
chamber, does the Prime Minister agree, the important thing now is to | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
make sure that it is legally binding, and make sure the details | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
are absolutely right, but above all sketch out the case for the economic | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
reasons why we need to be in the EU, not least the fact that more than | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
half of our foreign investment comes from the European Union. You are | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
right. The next few weeks will be about trying to secure this detail, | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
and then if that is successful they will be the bigger items that he | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
refers to. I suspect there will always be issues which divide the | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
Prime Minister and myself, but on this, the thing that matters is the | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
national interest and what the Prime Minister has described in his | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
statement as the greater prize. Isn't one of the real issues and the | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
real benefits of having a document which is legally binding and | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
ratified by the British people in a referendum, that it will be the | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
British people who decide and that had the Prime Minister gone for a | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
treaty change, that that would have been potentially scuppered by | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
referendums in France, the Netherlands, Ireland and other EU | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
member states, whose public might have come to a different view to the | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
British one? I'm grateful for what you said, and clearly this is a | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
legally binding arrangement, if it is agreed, for the reasons I've | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
given, but we are aiming for a treaty change for those things that | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
need to change the next and the treaties are altered. He makes a | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
good point, the more we can bring this together in one place and | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
explain what it is about, the more the British people will be able to | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
see the force of the arduous. -- the next time the treaties are altered. | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
-- the force of the argument. If the United Kingdom left the European | :28:57. | :29:05. | |
Union we will be able to regain our seat at the world trade table, we | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
lost its voice by being a member of the European Union. You are right, | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
of course outside the EU one of the options is to take our seat at the | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
World Trade Organisation 's, Buglioni problem with that, the | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
World Trade Organisation has not signed many trade agreements in | :29:28. | :29:29. | |
recent years -- the only problem with that. They have tended to be | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
bilateral agreements, you have the EU agreement with Canada, the EU | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
agreement with career. Britain could independently go and sign trade | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
agreements, but we have got to weigh up the arguments, how much weight | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
does Britain have as a member of the European Union, part of a market of | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
five meeting people, will you are trying to negotiate the biggest and | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
best trade deals with the fastest-growing countries in the | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
world? -- part of a market of 5 million people. The German | :30:01. | :30:11. | |
government and the European car lobby see this as an opportunity to | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
water down new proposals on emissions standards and approval, | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
does the Prime Minister accept that would be unacceptable to British | :30:21. | :30:22. | |
drivers and make sure that will not be a bargaining chip? There is net | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
connection between this renegotiation and those directives, | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
the only connection I can see is the one I was making earlier, Britain | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
needs to be in the room when these decisions are made for the good of | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
our car industry and for our consumers stash there is no | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
connection. The Prime Minister has set out but he would like... Sorry, | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
that there are many things to be reformed, but if this grudging and | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
threadbare deal is the very best the EU are prepared to concede to us, | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
what serious hope is there of meaningful renegotiation if and when | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
we are tied in long-term after a referendum? I would make a couple of | :31:05. | :31:12. | |
points, first of all, this is not coming at the time of a more general | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
treaty change, this is a one off, the first thing, because government, | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
the first Prime Minister that from a standing start has achieved a | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
unilateral agreement for the good of their country inside the EU and I | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
don't think that is threadbare. It is very solid. There will be treaty | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
changes in the EU coming down the track, and the process of reform is | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
never fully completed. The other thing, there is no danger after this | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
agreement being signed, and I would hope confirmed, in a referendum, | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
there is no danger of year running away with a load of other plans for | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
Britain, because we have got that referendum. Nothing can happen to | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
Britain without a referendum in this country, that was such an important | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
piece of legislation in 2010 and I think we have forgotten about that | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
at times. The Liberal Democrats believe in the United Kingdom being | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
in Europe but we also believe in the European Union being reformed. I | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
congratulate the Prime Minister and his team and I wish them well. When | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
he is leading the campaign to stay, will he reminds the British public | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
of the mutual defence clause and the frankly, in his unstable world, it | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
would be an absurd time to turn our backs on our nearest neighbours and | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
allies? This will be an important... Thanks for your good wishes, for the | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
final stages. This will be a big argument, in the campaign, like many | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
on this site, I have seen Nato as the cornerstone of our defence, but | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
in the modern networked world, the work you do, for instance, in the | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Mediterranean to try and stop people leaving Libya and making the | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
perilous journey to Italy, that could be a Nato operation, but right | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
now this is a European operation in which we are playing a leading part. | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
Being a member of networks where you can work together for your security | :33:08. | :33:16. | |
is important. Small businesses are looking at the targets for | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
regulation reduction with optimism, but what they are seeking is a | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
reassurance that these are stretched targets and the real goal has got to | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
beat beyond them and make sure there is a real terms reduction in the | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
amount of bureaucracy small-business face. You are right, what we have | :33:34. | :33:43. | |
achieved is a 18% reduction, but what we want is a reduction in the | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
existing base of regulation and legislation where it is not | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
necessary and are going for the first time that is what we have | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
secured targets towards. Can the Prime Minister confirmed that | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
British women as rights at work, especially around paid maternity | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
leave and it will play an anti-disconnection laws, will remain | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
firmly in place and will not be affected by any deal? -- British | :34:08. | :34:13. | |
women's rights. And how far has he got with the tampon tax? I can give | :34:14. | :34:20. | |
you that reassurance, not only are those guarantees, but the action we | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
have taken domestically on things like shared parental leave, which | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
I'm very proud of and make Britain a more family friendly country. In | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
terms of the tampon tax, this is difficult, because of the VAT rules | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
in Europe, so I've nothing to add to what I've said before about this, | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
but I totally agree about the desirability of trying to get this | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
fixed. May I join other colleagues in thanking the Prime Minister for | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
his work in negotiating a better deal for Britain in the European | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
Union. I agree that these reforms are substantial and a better change, | :34:55. | :35:03. | |
but what has he made in terms of reforms regarding car Manufacturing | :35:04. | :35:11. | |
work? A constituent of mine contacted me yesterday to say, what | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
is the impact on my grandchild if we left the European Union? Inevitably, | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
these negotiations, they focus on important ideas and concepts, | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
sovereignty and non-discrimination, deregulation, but we have got to | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
make sure that this is a debate that is about consumers and how we are | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
affected in terms of the freedom to travel and to study, the price of | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
flights, the availability of roaming charges, and all the rest of it, how | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
we are affected as pensioners and car workers and as young people | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
looking for university places, and hopefully the debate will bring up | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
these issues. The Prime Minister has outlined the action he has taken in | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
the negotiations, but what is missing from his statement, with the | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
respect, is any referral to the fishing sectors. There is too much | :36:02. | :36:08. | |
prerequisite, farmers have two wade through red tape just to farm. -- | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
there is too much bureaucracy. Have a referendum as soon as possible and | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
let's rid ourselves of the top EU, -- the top-heavy EU, and get out of | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
Europe. When will the referendum take place? I can't give a date | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
because we don't have agreement in place, but I would say that there | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
have been significant improvements in the Common fisheries policy, not | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
least dealing with the appalling situation of discards, but as for | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
farmers, let the debate begin. Let's say from farmers and their | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
representatives about what they think about these but they get and | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
the actions we have taken to try and simplify the bureaucracy with you | :36:52. | :36:53. | |
inspections, but I look forward to hearing from all farmers and their | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
representatives stashed few were inspections. Thank you very much, | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
the report is fantastic, but can I draw your attention to section B, | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
and Donald Tusk's part on competitiveness. Especially small | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
and medium enterprises. And the unnecessary legislation. This is | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
what so many companies complain about and this is very welcome to | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
all businesses, especially those who want to invest in Europe and the | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
reason why we should be staying in the market which has over 500 | :37:29. | :37:29. | |
million people. Of course section B is important but | :37:30. | :37:43. | |
it is worth looking at the detail on competitive which adds section B. | :37:44. | :37:52. | |
Any referendum debate will centre on the bigger picture and the longer | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
term challenge and deeper interest. As well as the issues raised by my | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
honourable friend, the member for South Down, can he address, not a | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
package he has come up with, the changes in relation to child | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
benefit. We'll be extend to cross-border workers in a | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
constituency like mine where it EU presets do apply? I will look | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
carefully at that issue but I remember from conversations I have | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
had, there are particular arrangements for the common travel | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
area. But I will come back to the honourable gentleman. The legal | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
certainty which the Prime Minister referred to in the protections in | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
the economic government section of the document, are very important to | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
maintain the status of London as an international business and financial | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
centre. Would he agree with me one of the risks that would remain if | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
this agreement or not successful to that position, would it be | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
uncertainty of leaving a market we can grow, improve and strengthen and | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
then having to try and get back in to the market from the outside at on | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
certain cost, time and terms? He is right to talk about the importance | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
of financial services and the City of London. We have 40% of Europe's | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
financial services in the UK. The current arrangements work well | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
because you can passport your weight to establish yourself in any | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
European country. So those wanting alternatives will have to answer | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
difficult questions as to how you put those protections in place. Can | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
the Prime Minister confirm he is in receipt of a letter from my right | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
honourable friend from Gordon, that makes it clear he does not think six | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
weeks is a long enough gap between national elections and the | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
referendum? It wasn't intentional, we will accept that, but can I | :39:51. | :40:01. | |
stress the views of the former First Minister, and the real reason the | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
Prime Minister once a June referendum is a short campaign is to | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
cover up the obvious divisions within the Conservative Party? I | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
don't think four months is a short period of time. By the end of four | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
months, I think people might be sick of the whole subject. I notice the | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
thumbscrews and the other instruments of torture available to | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
the current First Minister, have been applied to the former First | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
Minister. In a miraculous conversion, six weeks was enough, | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
now six weeks is not enough. I wonder what she did to him? Can I | :40:41. | :40:49. | |
thank the Prime Minister for giving the country the chance for a | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
referendum. Would he agree he, I am this government are nothing more | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
than tenants, his duty, while we serve to protect our island | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
inheritance, our democracy, sovereignty and freedom. We have no | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
right to sell it all, let alone cheaply to a bureaucratic and | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
unaccountable institution like the EU? We are tenants, he is right. | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
That is why I think after 40 years of the British people not having a | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
say, when Europe has changed so much, it is right to give the | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
British people say again. I wanted to give them the best possible | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
chance, not between the status quo today and leaving altogether, but an | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
settlement and plan for Britain, which they can choose to stay in, or | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
get out of. Mr Tom Elliott, don't be diverted by the honourable gentleman | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
next to you. Mr Speaker, I would not. One of the major drawbacks to | :41:50. | :41:55. | |
businesses is the red tape and bureaucracy. I did note within | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
yesterday's document said it would be repealing unnecessary legislation | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
in that respect. When will the public and businesses be able to see | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
what legislation is planned to be repealed? It is, as the document set | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
out, it will be an annual process. What is different about this, | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
instead of just words about deregulation, there are two | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
mechanisms put in place. Once you enforce subsidiarity, and one for | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
burden reduction targets. Those two things are new. On this side of the | :42:31. | :42:38. | |
House, we want what is best for Britain when it comes to jobs and | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
security. I have one vote and I believe there are aspects of the EU | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
that needs serious scrutiny and reform. My constituents share those | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
thoughts. This party has brought the opportunity for this much-needed | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
referendum and the reality of reform, and we cannot at this and | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
examine what it is us. Would the Prime Minister agree, on all sides, | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
and open argument on this, rather than open warfare is what voters | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
will all want? People want open argument and they want unbiased | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
statistics and clear independent advice as well. As well as there | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
being an in campaign and an outer campaign, once the deal is agreed, | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
several out campaigns, as you say... We need to make sure that | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
independent organisations, businesses and NGOs and others, who | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
think they would be affected, everybody should he encouraged to | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
come forward and give their view. Mr Speaker, will the Prime Minister | :43:45. | :43:52. | |
tell us in the spirit of subsidy and action, when he said strengthening | :43:53. | :43:54. | |
all national parliaments, what does that mean for the Scottish | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
Parliament? We are currently giving the Scottish Parliament the immense | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
responsibility of being able to raise its own taxes. Which we are | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
still negotiating. This is probably the biggest act in a British | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
subsidiarity we have had in many years. I would urge the SNP to pick | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
up the Batten and run with it. On the topic of in work benefits, the | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
Prime Minister has already said the emergency brake is in the hands of | :44:27. | :44:28. | |
the commission. Would the Prime Minister agree it would help the in | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
case, if over the last few weeks he could get a stronger commitment to | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
apply the handbrake for a period into the future, not just initially? | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
And what would happen if we voted to stay in but the European Parliament | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
subsequently didn't ratify these measures? On his latter point, I | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
make a point the European Parliament are a party to these negotiations | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
and I have had a number of meetings with them. If he looks at the draft | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
declaration of the European Commission on the safeguard | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
mechanism, it is very clear we are justified in triggering the | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
mechanism straightaway. But his other point is absolutely right, we | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
need to secure, in the negotiations, the best possible agreement about | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
all the other aspects of this mechanism, how long it lasts for, | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
how many times it can be renewed, and all the rest of it. There were | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
500 days between the announcement and the date of the Scottish | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
independent referendum which is roughly the same between now and the | :45:32. | :45:39. | |
23rd of June. But the are thousands of European citizens living in | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
Britain and claiming benefits so how will this draft package be legally | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
binding and affect them? I can let the House into a secret, the reason | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
there were 500 days between the announcement of the Scottish | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
renderer and the Scottish referendum itself, I was determined there would | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
be one question only that I granted the former First Minister the right | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
to name the date. He wanted to make sure it was after as long as | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
possible, after the anniversary of Alnwick Burn, everything you could | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
throw in. The result was still, from my point of view, very, very clear. | :46:15. | :46:24. | |
Benefits is pulling factor for migration and it may have been | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
blunted under these proposals, but not eliminated. The biggest pull | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
factor for migration is our successful economy and job creation | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
in the UK. Can I ask the Prime Minister what the long-term view is | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
in these draft proposals for the UK to be able to control immigration | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
within the EU beyond the four years of the emergency brake? The | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
long-term approach is, first of all we are dealing with the abuses of | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
free movement in a more comprehensive package than before, | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
fraudsters, criminal calls and sham marriages. We have this four-year | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
break, which is significant. Frankly, I am sure the Eurozone | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
economies over time will start to recover, because that has been one | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
of the issues. In the long term we need to do better controlling of | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
immigration from outside the EU, but we need a welfare policy and | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
training policy inside our own country, which trains up the people | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
in our own country to do the jobs is a strong economy is providing. One | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
of the top five economies in the world, Britain has to have a | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
worldview and we need friends and allies, not just in one continent, | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
but in six. But I agree with the Prime Minister as to whether we can | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
manage outside the European union, but where we are better off. What | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
feedback has he had from his negotiations from our allies in the | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
Commonwealth and Britain's wider networks around the world? The | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
advice has been comprehensive from all of them. They valued the | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
individual relationship with Britain, but they think we are | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
better off inside a reform European Union. Whether it is the Prime | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
ministers of New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the American president or | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
others, they are clear about this, not simply because they think we are | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
better off, but also the influence we bring to bear on the European | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
Union is positive from the point of view. The SNP in rummaging for an | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
argument referred to in 1953, the case of McCormick and comments, side | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
passing comments. Can I remind the Prime Minister that he, among EU | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
leaders, has unique, up-to-date experience of tough negotiations, | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
which led to a referendum agreement, which led to 55% of the Scottish | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
electorate voting to keep the sovereign united Kingdom together. | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
Can I say to the Prime Minister, he should take comfort in his success, | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
because those 55% will be voting just like the English, the Welsh and | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
Northern Irish, to listen to the British premiere on what is in | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
Britain's best interests. I am grateful to my honourable friend. | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
What these two referenda have in common, as a country we should be | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
confronting and dealing with these big issues. The Scotland want to | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
stay in the United Kingdom and does the United Kingdom want to stay | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
within a reformed Europe? Just as important are the result, is the | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
legitimacy of the result and a high turnout will be essential. What will | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
the Prime Minister do to engage with trade, industry and businesses to | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
discuss with their employees the implications for which ever way this | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
debate goes? I will do everything I can in the results of a successful | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
negotiation to encourage engagement at all levels. I would encourage | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
businesses and charities and other organisations, to make sure they | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
feel they can come forward. Some in the business community feel there | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
are corporate governance concerns they have to go through. I would | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
advise them to get on with that process, so if they think they have | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
important arguments to put forward to the workforce, customers and | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
shareholders, they should do so. The key question is whether the UK can, | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
when we need to, say no to European migrants. This draft agreement says | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
we can on the grounds of public policy, public health or public | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
security. Which means reducing unemployment and marriages of | :50:35. | :50:42. | |
convenience. Is this a step forward for our own immigration and security | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
interests? I think my honourable friend makes an important point. If | :50:46. | :50:54. | |
you read section D of the main document, it is refreshing on how | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
many instances it is possible for the control of migration and for the | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
limitation of free movement. It bears for careful reading. Can I | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
welcome the Prime Minister's statement so far and in particular | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
the fact, for the first time in my lifetime Prime Minister is doing a | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
deal in Europe and coming back to this country to give the British | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
people a say on it and not just parliament. Would he reassure me, | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
even if we do about to remain on the European Union on the basis of this | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
deal, we will still have a vision Europe should be doing less and | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
doing it better? I absolutely agree with that. The idea of Europe when | :51:38. | :51:46. | |
necessary. There will be people who will say, maybe these issues, we | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
have addressed issues of concern to the British people, but there is | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
more to be done. It is a perfectly acceptable view. The more to be done | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
should be done inside the EU, rather than as slamming the door and trying | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
to do it from outside. It is now clear from the renegotiation that | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Britain can its position within Europe by continuing to benefit from | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
influence over and market of 500 million people, while maintaining | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
our borders and preventing abuse of free movement. May I ask the Prime | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
Minister if he is as encouraged as I am by the positive support that has | :52:25. | :52:25. | |
come from business across the piece? Is important that business raises | :52:26. | :52:34. | |
its voice, especially regarding jobs and investment. We need to | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
demonstrate that this negotiation and its outcome, can actually lead | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
to a strong and more secure economy, not just for the sake of business, | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
but the sake of people that want security. I congratulate my right | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
honourable friend on his statement. Is he aware that 90% of FTSE 100 | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
chairman would vote to remain in the European Union? Does he think this | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
is because they are part of project fear or is it because they run our | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
very largest companies in the real world and they know a vote to leave | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
is a vote for economic uncertainty and a vote to remain with the | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
protections we will have in terms of the single market and our currency | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
is a vote for our economy and to go from strength to strength? It is | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
important that we hear the voice of business large and small and I | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
encourage them to speak out. They have an important contribution to | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
make to the debate and the more people that can give concrete | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
examples of how access to this market matters and how access to the | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
rules of this market matters, that is the best thing. I've thanked the | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
Prime Minister for his efforts to secure the best deal available. -- I | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
thank. The newspaper reports suggest that the changes needed to introduce | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
the emergency brake would require approval from the European | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
Parliament. Has he had an opportunity to assess the levels of | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
support from MEPs for these changes? You are right. It is a great advance | :54:04. | :54:09. | |
that the European Commission has said Britain qualifies for this M | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
break, if it existing now, it would be brought in straightaway -- | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
qualifies for this emergency brake. I think the head of the largest | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
group at the European Parliament thinks this could be sorted out in a | :54:23. | :54:31. | |
matter of months. The German captain of the ship which is the European | :54:32. | :54:33. | |
Union has deliberately steered it into a migration iceberg, with all | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
the watertight doors open. Rather than rearranging the deck chairs, | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
would it not be better to direct the British people to the available | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
lifeboat while the band is still playing before the inevitable | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
happens? The analogy was getting quite complex, but I don't agree | :54:52. | :54:59. | |
with that. If we were not outside Schengen our friend would have a | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
very fair point, but we are in this situation of being able to have the | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
best of both worlds, we will keep our borders and not let in foreign | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
nationals that don't have a right to be here, something which is | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
strengthened by this agreement, but let's keep the free movement so | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
British people can live and work in other European countries. I think | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
that is the best of both worlds. If I can press the Prime Minister | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
further about the emergency brake, it sounded so hopeful a few weeks | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
ago, and the Honourable friend from Gainsborough disk drive backstreet | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
drivers. -- Gainsborough described. But it seems to mean that when I | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
hazard is saying, an accident will surely happen, would my friend agree | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
that it is far better to have independent control of the emergency | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
brake, the clutch, the Excel rate and indeed the steering wheel? -- | :55:57. | :56:04. | |
when a hazard is seen. The European Commission statement is very clear, | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
it considers the information provided to it by the United | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
Kingdom, and that shows the exceptional situation exists in the | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
United Kingdom today, so that would enable us to pull the emergency | :56:15. | :56:22. | |
brake, but there is another consideration, those thinking that | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
we would be better off outside the European Union have to think about. | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
Most of those countries outside the EU that want a close leisure ship | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
with it, when they ask for free access to the single market, the | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
first and is that they should also be the free movement of people, that | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
is the case with Norway, for instance -- they want a close | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
relationship. This is a deal from within, and even on this issue I | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
think this would be better than a deal from without. In his statement | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
the Prime Minister outlines the work we've done to tackle migration from | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
outside the EU, but what conversation as he had with other | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
leaders about what they need to do to tackle the EU | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
migration crisis question not many of my constituents are very | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
concerned about this -- migration crisis? This is a crucial question | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
which needs a proper answer, because the arrival of these people into | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
Europe does concern people, and first we don't had to allow into our | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
country foreign nationals, resident in other states, that is why we keep | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
our border controls. If we take the situation in Germany, in order to | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
get German citizenship, that can take as much as ten yes. That is the | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
product of a lot of work and tests and everything else -- ten years. We | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
have got to keep our Schengen no borders agreement and we should also | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
continue to exclude people if they are not European Union citizens and | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
they don't have a Visa, and the changes here that mean that we can | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
crack down on the forces and the criminals and the sham marriages, | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
and those who are trying to get round our immigration controls puts | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
us in a better place to deal with the pressures of the future. It has | :58:11. | :58:20. | |
been a long wait, but the voice of the Humber will not be silenced. As | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
the Prime Minister said last week -- humbled. The Prime Minister said | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
that the British people are proud of their democratic institutions, but | :58:32. | :58:33. | |
when they see British ministers having to go cap in hand to Brussels | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
to determine who receives benefits and who is allowed into the country, | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
that pride is somewhat diminished. Could I urge him in his final | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
negotiations to remain robust and achieve even more and although I'm | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
afraid Hewelt persuade me, you might persuade a few doubting people in | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
Cleethorpes -- I'm afraid Hewelt persuade me. The voice of the humble | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
could help me with that, if he wanted to. We are a member of a | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
number of national organisations, some of which involve us having | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
obligations towards them. We have exceeded some of our sovereignty to | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
Nato, but we don't see that as a cap in hand issue. That is a cornerstone | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
of our security. What I'm trying to secure with Europe is that we are in | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
the things we want to be in and out of the things we don't want to be | :59:27. | :59:36. | |
in, and if that is not -- if that is the case, we are able to get things | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
done for the people who put us in. Always very keen to hear the | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
Honourable member, but he only toppled into the chamber some way | :59:47. | :59:55. | |
into the statement, as his grin suggests, and we will hear from him | :59:56. | :59:58. | |
on a subsequent occasion. Can we thank the Prime Minister for his | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
patience and his courtesy and I would like to thank all colleagues | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
for taking part. There will be many opportunities to debate these | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
important matters, but thanks where it is due. We have come to the ten | :00:14. | :00:21. | |
minute rule motion, which you have been waiting for. As I'm sure all | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
Honourable members will agree, it is our job in this house to make sure | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
that the citizens we represent can truly exercise their democratic | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
rights, but as we speak British citizens in this country are being | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
marginalised and excluded from the democratic process and the problem | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
is less getting people to sign up, and more about maintaining people's | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
registration. The people who are being excluded from the process are | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
exactly the people we need to be prioritising. According to recent | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
trends, we are witnessing further marginalisation of already | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
marginalised groups, including those from poorer backgrounds, those who | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
are disabled and those from ethnic minorities. Research published | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
yesterday shows that pensioners in the shires who own their own homes | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
have a 90% chance of being on the electoral register, but at the same | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
time a young man from an ethnic minority background in private | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
rented accommodation in a city, has less than 10% chance of being | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
registered. Meanwhile the Prime Minister has launched an important | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
drive against" over, unconscious or institutional racial discrimination | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
in university admissions, the justice system and the police", but | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
the fact that people from ethnic minorities are far less likely to be | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
registered, and to exercise their democratic rights undermines the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
government's commitment. When it comes to electoral registration the | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
picture is bleak. I celebrate the work of my friend from Ashfield, for | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
raising the issue of voters dropping off the register, since the | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
introduction of individual registration. Since the introduction | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
a staggering 800,000 people have dropped off the register, that is | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
1.8% nationwide. To put these figures into context, Liverpool has | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
seen a drop in is eligible register of 14,000, Birmingham, 17,000, | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
Lewisham, 6000. These are all areas which have seen an increase in | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
population. The situation is even worse in areas where the population | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
is transient, such as university towns. Canterbury has seen a 13% | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
drop in those registered to vote, Cambridge has dropped by 11%, | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
meaning the electorate is now smaller than it was in 2011. These | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
jobs are the result of the absurdities of the current system. | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
-- drops. Imagine if every time you started a new job you needed to | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
apply for a new national insurance number and needed to prove to the | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
HMRC again and again that you were eligible to pay tax and national | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
insurance. The process would be cumbersome and costly and | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
repetitive, just as the process of this is. In sum, these developers | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
mean that British citizens, especially those who are on the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
sidelines, are being disenfranchised -- these developments. This also | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
means that as the pool of potential voters decreases, our political | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
status quo becomes more limited. If the government is serious about | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
combating social exclusion, it urgently needs to review the dire | :03:49. | :03:59. | |
situation. Disenfranchisement is marginalising the already | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
marginalised. If you are not on the register, you won't have access to | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
mainstream loans and you might not be able to get a mortgage. You also | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
can't serve on a jury and be part of our justice process. More | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
fundamentally of all, if you are not on the electoral register, you can't | :04:17. | :04:18. | |
participate in the democratic process. Our present a lecture at | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
system of electoral registration is fundamentally flawed, and it is not | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
cheap -- our present electoral system. But it does not have to be | :04:28. | :04:36. | |
this way. Automatic registration provides the opportunity to reduce | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
costs and improve Administration and cut down on the Roxy and enable | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
everyone to access their right to in franchise -- cut down on | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
bureaucracy. This places the responsibility on the state to do | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
everything in its power to make sure that the electoral database is full | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
and complete. It imposes a duty on the government and public bodies to | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
work better together, and it proposes to make the system truly | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
convenient for the citizens by integrating national and local | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
datasets and this will mean that when individuals address details | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
will be automatically updated according to trusted datasets. The | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
datasets will collate information at each point a citizen interacts with | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
the state, whether when they pay tax or receive benefits, use the NHS or | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
claim a pension. The walls used to be sacrosanct between these | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
datasets, but they are falling away as the government prioritises | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
security. Housing benefit departments already use the | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
electoral register to find households claiming the 25% single | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
person council tax discount. But have more than one voter registered. | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
This demonstrates the huge potential wing government departments and | :05:57. | :05:58. | |
public bodies communicate with each other. -- when. This would improve | :05:59. | :06:08. | |
registration, these reforms, and are very similar model operates in | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
Australia with huge success. The state of Victoria has a population | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
of 3.5 million people and has a 95% accuracy in its registration | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
process. It does this at extremely low cost, employing just five | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
members of staff who maintain the rolling register. Rolling out this | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
reform in the UK is timely for so many reasons. Greater Manchester | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
will submit to the Cabinet Office next week, its plans to pioneer the | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
system of automatic electoral registration. Its proposals for a | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
pilot scheme, and I sincerely hope that the government will support | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
these plans, and I will introduce the primary legislation which is | :06:48. | :06:53. | |
needed to make sure the pilot can go ahead -- and they will. I'm sure | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
members will be aware that this week is National voter registration | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
drive, and last year 's drives almost half a million people | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
registered to vote, making it the most accessible voter registration | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
campaign ever. I hope the results this week will match that | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
achievement. But in the longer run, voter registration should not be the | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
responsibility of charities and NGOs, it should be down to the state | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
to do all it can to make sure that everyone, especially those who are | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
most marginalised, can access their democratic rights. I hope honourable | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
members will consider this a nonpartisan issue, and will agree | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
that it is in all our interests to get more people signed up. -- all | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
agree. Then we can get on with our job to try and persuade and enthuse | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
voters that we are worthy of their votes. At a time when social | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
exclusion is getting worse, voter turnout is declining, and this has | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
caused registration to do play, automatic voter registration has | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
never been more important, voting is the backbone of this house and is | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
one of the most important interactions between the citizen and | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
the democratic state, it is a fundamental symbol of engagement, | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
signifies that you are not on the margins of society, but part of the | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
majority. We can no longer accept a system that excludes and | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
marginalises potential voters, not least because they are exactly the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
groups that we need to engage with two and social exclusion. I don't | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
think it is a controversial thing to argue that voting is not just for | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
the elite, it is something we should all be able to access. That is why, | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
for the sake of our democracy, and of social cohesion, I hope the | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
government will be supporting my suggestions and will make | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
registering to vote more, not less, way of life. | :08:45. | :08:52. | |
The question is the honourable member have leave to bring in the | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
Bill. As many as are of the opinion say "aye". To the contrary, "no". | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
The eyes to the right,. He will bring in the Bill? | :09:08. | :10:12. | |
Automatic electoral reading Bill. What day. Friday the 5th of | :10:13. | :10:22. | |
February. We now come to the motion from the Leader of the Opposition on | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
tax avoidance and multinational companies. Mr John McDonnell. I wish | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
to move the motion set out on the order paper in my name and that of | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
several other friends. Can I welcome the minister responding, totally | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
sympathise with his position having been put in this position by the | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
Shadow Chancellor. I understand the Chancellor is in Rome today, can I | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
say at this stage it is unfortunate to say the least that securing a | :10:57. | :11:06. | |
firm a agreement on tax avoidance could be a missed opportunity but | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
this government. We have called this debate because of the last 12 days, | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
we have witnessed the most supine capitulation to corporate interests | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
write any British government in the recent history of this country. It | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
has caused immense anger within our community, from individual | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
taxpayers, from businesses small and large, from Independent commentators | :11:33. | :11:34. | |
and from across the political spectrum. Just at the time when many | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
of our constituents were filling in their tax returns and paying their | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
taxes, they see what the government was allowing Google to get away | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
with. This is a time-limited debate and I will try and press on as quick | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
as I can. Members will have the opportunity to engage. On the Friday | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
before last, Google announced late in the day by press release, the | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
company's tax deal with HMRC. It celebrated a deal comprising of | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
payments of ?130 million in respect of taxes from 2005 up to 2015. In | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
the early hours of the morning, the Chancellor was in an equally | :12:23. | :12:24. | |
celebratory mood and tweeted this was a victory, a major success. The | :12:25. | :12:34. | |
Google deal and that... I will in due course. The Chancellor's | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
exaltation of the deal were received with incredulity of independent tax | :12:40. | :12:46. | |
analysts. The Chancellor and HMRC were keen to publicly parade the | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
deal, but when challenged to release the detail, they hid behind | :12:52. | :12:57. | |
confidential conditions. What assessment does the Shadow | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
Chancellor make of the Labour government, who were in charge of | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
taxation during part of that period? I am grateful for the intervention, | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
the honourable member knows I was not the most enamoured of the Labour | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
government's track record during that period. It was a Labour | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
government that started this enquiry. His government took six | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
years to complete it. If you look at the recent estimate why the | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
Financial Times, the measures that were introduced by the Labour | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
government, the Labour government, will reap in ten times the amount of | :13:30. | :13:37. | |
tax this government has introduced. I am grateful to my right honourable | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
friend, but won't many of our constituents find it difficult to | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
understand the fact this information is largely in the public domain? We | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
know the profits and the assets and the liabilities of Google in the | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
United Kingdom, because those finances are public. We also know | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
how much tax is being paid. Does that lead us to the conclusion the | :14:01. | :14:09. | |
tax rate is 2.77% and not 20%? Let me come on to that point. I didn't | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
take long for independent analysis to show what a derisory sum the | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
Google tax payment was. I said derisory, not just my description | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
but used by many others. Google had a UK turnover of up approximately | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
four Oleon in 2014, 20 15. If profits are similar across the whole | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
group, 25% return, it implies one alien pounds worth of profits. If | :14:42. | :14:50. | |
the standard 20% corporation tax was levied, not the 200 in due course, | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
not the 200 million paid by Google for the decade. Independent | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
assessors estimated the Google tax rate for the last decade of 3%. I | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
thank him for giving way. Companies in my constituency are extremely | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
successful at selling products around the world and based on the | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
intellectual rapidly developed in the UK. Does the Shadow Chancellor | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
think the profits from that intellectual rapidly should be taxed | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
in the company where those products are sold, or here in Britain? The | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
economic activity definition has to be examined when rockets are | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
assessed. It is a valid and reasonable point. Let me press on. | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
It is no wonder local, small businesses and taxpayers feel so | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
strongly that this is grotesquely unfair. They have not been allowed | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
to ignore the tax demands for a decade then negotiate a sweetheart | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
deal at mater's rates. It also shows who counts with this government, | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
that in the month they let Google Paea poultry sum in back tax, they | :16:04. | :16:14. | |
lose in court over the bedroom tax and then they appeal the decision so | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
they can persecute some of the most vulnerable and poorest people in the | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
land over a relatively insignificant sum. It demonstrates to us at the | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
start up site down and callous sense of justice and fairness. I thank him | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
for giving way. Does he agree with me what compounds that sense of | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
unfairness constituents will feel, the tax gap has been estimated by | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
many to be over 100 billion pounds and this government is cutting HMRC | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
offices and at the weekend announced compulsory redundancy for tax | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
collectors. How can we narrowed the tax gap when that is happening? | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
Under Labour, hedge fund managers were paying routinely rate of tax | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
band the cleaners because Labour were a soft touch on tax. Isn't this | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
political opportunism on stilts? Can I say, I am not sure if the | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
honourable gentleman is listening, but my critique of the last Labour | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
government, having convened the tax Justice network in this building, | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
campaigned for 18 years. I have to say over the last government, the | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
Financial Times assessment is the measures introduced by the Labour | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
government will reap in ten times as much as anything introduced by this | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
government. Let me press on. Last Monday, just to get some answers by | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
the Google deal I tabled an urgent question to the Chancellor and I'm | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
grateful Mr Speaker granted the question. Typically the Chancellor | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
failed to turn up. By that time Number Ten was distancing itself | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
from the Chancellor. Google deal had gone, within 72 hours, from a major | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
success to merely a step forward, to Number Ten. I see this weekend, the | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
Business Secretary was describing the deal with masterly | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
understatement as not a glorious moment. Yesterday, Ruth Davidson, | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
the leader of the Scottish Conservatives said, it doesn't feel | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
fair that in our hearts I feel we all know it isn't fair. I agree, | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
wholeheartedly. During the urgent discussion last Monday, the Minister | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
was asked by the member for Kingston upon Hull North, whether he knew | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
what the rate of tax was Google was paying. He said bluntly, no. We had | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
the assertion that the HMRC calculation of back tasks set on | :18:53. | :19:00. | |
levied on an assessment of economic activity. This implies there must be | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
very little economic activity happening in Google UK. This | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
argument will a bit thin... I will in due course, but it was pointed | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
out by Google employs 2300 staff in the UK with average earnings of | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
?160,000, is building a new headquarters on top of the two it | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
already has. Can I join with the Shadow Chancellor in demanding more | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
transparency question I have had contact from my constituents who are | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
concerned what is happening is the government are creating a loophole, | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
especially for Google and nobody else. I think we deserve, in this | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
House, and in this country, full transparency on this deal. I will | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
come onto the recommendations for future action, which covers that | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
point. Let me press on a little bit further. As last week wore on, there | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
was a growing sense of outrage at the Google sweetheart deal and many | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
felt betrayed by the Chancellor. We supported the Chancellor with the | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
introduction of the diverted profit tax legislation, to tackle firms | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
using complex profit shifting schemes to avoid tax. We supported | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
him. He was referred to as the Google tax. We learned last week | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
that Google will not be paying a penny under this legislation. We | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
also supported the Chancellor in seeking international agreements on | :20:30. | :20:31. | |
tax avoidance. But we discovered at the weekend that Conservative MEPs | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
had been directed by the Chancellor on six occasions at least, to vote | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
against the very tax avoidance measures being introduced by the EU, | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
that the Chancellor told us he was supposedly promoting. I know the | :20:47. | :20:53. | |
Shadow Chancellor likes to seek consensus where he can and I am | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
listening to what he says. I have aimed doing some totting up and | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
there are about 40 changes to tax laws since this government has been | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
in office, which has raised 12 billion pounds since 2010. For the | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
record, would he welcomed that? Of course, I have supported the | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
Chancellor on each piece of legislation he has brought forward | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
to tackle avoidance and tax evasion. This deal flies in the face the | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
honourable gentleman and I have been supporting in this chamber, it flies | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
in the face of it. I thank him for giving way. Last year, Google 408 | :21:29. | :21:37. | |
billion pounds of payments to Bermuda. Does he believe the British | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
government should be doing more to crack down on tax havens, | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
particularly those that are British Overseas Territories? If my | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
honourable friend will wait a few minutes, I will address the Bermuda | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
question and she will see how shocking it actually is. It now | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
appears the Chancellor actually, I believe, is missing an opportunity | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
in the recent EU negotiations to secure a robust international | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
agreements to tackle tax avoidance and tax evasion... If I could just | :22:06. | :22:16. | |
press on. That across the House, we have been calling for. Can I say | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
also, I supported and we all supported the changes to public | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
procurement rules that enabled the government to prevent public | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
contracts being awarded to companies, found to be engaged in | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
tax avoidance schemes. Let me finish this point... | :22:33. | :22:40. | |
Staggeringly, it is understood that no company has been denied a | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
contract on these grounds and even though the Google tax affairs were | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
under lengthy investigation by MH RC, Dutch by HMRC, they were awarded | :22:51. | :22:58. | |
a contract to supply services to HMRC! The UK has been at the | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
forefront of the profit shifting initiative and Richard Murphy, who | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
describes themselves as the author of Corbynomics, says that he was | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
pleased and surprised by progress made by the government since 2010. | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
As a porter the government in this action, this flies in the face of | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
that action and undermines the agreements we are trying to make -- | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
I support the government in this action. We also heard from Mr Jones, | :23:30. | :23:39. | |
the Google whistle-blower. In his opinion, HMRC had ignored Google's | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
attempts to avoid paying tax. We all accept that the existence of tax | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
savings present an ongoing challenge to national governments. So we have | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
all supported international agreements on tax collection. The UK | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
is a signatory to some of these. It has agreed in successive steps to | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
abide by the erosion of the profit shifting programme under the | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
auspices of HMRC. We'll support that. Let me press on, time is | :24:09. | :24:15. | |
short. 30 OECD partnered countries, in signing up to the agreement, we | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
support that. This is the kind of international co-operation, albeit | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
limited that will help close loopholes and ultimately close tax | :24:26. | :24:27. | |
havens. The kind of agreement we have back to yours, which was aboard | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
the Chancellor in undertaking. However last week by allowing | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
special treatment of one company, the government was driving a coach | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
and horses through this entire international approach. As the EU's | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
accommodation commissioner suggested, this could amount to an | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
unlawful state aid. The UK is becoming debated across Europe as a | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
tax haven. It risks establishing a race to the bottom in which every | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
country out bids each other to offer the lowest possible taxation. We | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
have written to the competition commissioner to request a formal | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
investigation of the deal. Bonrepaux lady? Does the honourable gentleman | :25:09. | :25:19. | |
accept that more has been done by this government than the previous | :25:20. | :25:21. | |
one to close loopholes and if he says he did not agree with the last | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
Labour government will he say what he did to oppose those measures and | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
to raise these points when he was in Parliament? I know the honourable | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
lady was not here, she should check my voting record through the 18 | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
years I've been in this House. I don't want to keep repeating this. | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
Jon Hamm wanted both governments to go further. On an independent | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
assessment -- but I wanted both governments to go further. Even then | :25:53. | :26:02. | |
I wanted to go further but at least I accept the independent assessment | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
made. Now can I buy Sun because time is getting on. I have written to the | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
competition Commissioner because I want to request a formal | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
investigation of this deal. There was a flicker of life in the | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
Chancellor a few days ago and in the Financial Times on Monday he let it | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
be known that he might favour country by country brought in for | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
multinational corporations. Tax experts and I have long argued that | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
this is a vital step towards transparency and therefore towards | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
their collection. By revealing in its accounts in which tax | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
jurisdiction revenues were being burned a proper rate of tax can be | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
applied to multinationals. If the Chancellor now supports country by | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
country reporting, I welcome it. The impression, though, was given that | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
even with that international agreement, the government would act. | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
Is this the case was this just a publicity stunt that has now been | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
dropped? And the Andrew Marr show on Sunday my referred to Bermuda, and | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
the Andrew Marr show on Sunday is senior Google representative | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
revealed the company has ?30 billion worth of of profits resting in the | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
mood, a British Overseas Territory. This is to avoid US tax rates. We | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
now know that the Chancellor has been lobbying the EU and instructing | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
his MPs to vote against anti-avoidance measures against | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
Bermuda. A disgrace. It was also revealed last week the fact that | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
government ministers met with Google 25 times over the last 18 months. I | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
see that the Prime Minister himself has spoken not once but twice at the | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
Google conference. If ministers are to meet anyone at my advice is that | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
they should meet with the trade union representatives of HMRC staff. | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
After almost half the workforce laid off and offices closed around the | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
country it is known that morale is at rock bottom, especially with the | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
loss of experienced expert staff. There has been a reference, Madam | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
Deputy Speaker, to declaring an interest. I have no interest. I | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
think it's a reference to a trade union group, they do not fund the | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
Labour Party and they do not fund my constituency, there is no interest | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
to be declared. We cannot allow the government to go on like this. Trust | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
and confidence in our tax system is being undermined. Every pound in tax | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
avoided by these large corporations is also a pound taken from the | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
pockets of honest taxpayers. Also a pound not spent on our schools, our | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
energise, and our police. We need a real tax reform agenda based upon | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
the complete openness and transparency. First, that means, as | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
a start, the publication of the details of this deal in full. So we | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
can judge whether it is fair enough and our constituents can judge | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
whether it is fair enough. Second we need real country by country | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
reporting of a country's activities -- a company's activities. Not just | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
as it would exchange of information between tax authorities but full | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
information. I give way. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
forgiving way, I hope he might talk about a revolutionary change because | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
the ranks of corporate lawyers put up against tax jurisdictions is an | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
any from battle, perhaps we need radical thinking. The honourable | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
gentleman has taken an interest in this for years and been in debates | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
of me and I do agree that we need a more radical approach. I think this | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
opens up a wider debate. We need real country by country reporting of | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
a company's activities, not simply a secret exchange of information | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
between tax authorities but full publications we can judge. Then an | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
end to mates rates, sweetheart deals with major corporations. Tax rates | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
should be applied fairly whatever the size of the company. We need | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
full transparency in the relationship between ministers and | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
companies. So I wanted the publication of oral ministerial | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
company meetings. Fifth, we need more action to curb the tax | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
avoidance industry. Action should be taken against advisers when the tax | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
avoidance schemes that they designed are found unlawful by tax tribunal | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
's and courts. The same advisers advise Her Majesty's Treasury and | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
helped write this country's tax laws. This is not healthy and it is | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
not acceptable. We clearly need independent scrutiny of HMRC. And | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
the implementation of taxation policy overall. Let us on a | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
cross-party basis now explore the establishment of a cross-party | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
committee on the lines of our security and intelligence committee | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
to perform this role. Finally we need an end to the | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
counter-productive stuffing cuts and office closures at HMRC. Madam | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
Deputy Speaker, for most of my time in Parliament I've campaigned for a | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
fair tax system. Of course companies like Google make a significant | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
contribution to research and development in the employment they | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
provide and I welcome that but we expect all companies to play fair | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
when it comes to tax responsibilities. I cannot accept | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
the government 's amendment because it fails to support key demands for | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
openness. It removes Labour's central demand for publication of | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
the Google deal and the adoption of full public country by country | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
boarding. If anything is good to come out of this sordid deal that | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
the government cut with Google I urge members of this house to use | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
this opportunity to secure a fair and open system of taxation for this | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
country and stop this process by backing our motion today. The | :32:04. | :32:12. | |
question is as on the order paper. I have to inform the House that Mr | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
Speaker has selected the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister. | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
Just before I called the honourable gentleman to move the amendment, I | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
should tell House that there are a great many people will have | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
indicated that they wish to catch my eye this afternoon, more than 20 | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
honourable members wish to speak. This debate will last for | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
considerably less than two hours. There will be a time limit of three | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
minutes initially and backbench speeches. There is no point of | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
people complaining, that is the amount of time there is. There will | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
be three minutes and even then not everyone who wishes to be called to | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
speak will be called to speak. And I say, very importantly to the House, | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
that people who have intervened and taken part in the debate must remain | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
in this chamber for the whole of the debate. The occasional five minutes | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
is fine but they must effectively remain in the chamber for the whole | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
of the debate as they are taking our time that other people will then not | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
have or have sat through the whole debate. This has nothing to do with | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
old-fashioned conventions, it is simple courtesy of one member of | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
Parliament to another. I called to move the government amendment, Mr | :33:36. | :33:36. | |
David Gauke. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, it | :33:37. | :33:46. | |
is a great pleasure to move the government's amendment. There is | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
much we have heard from the party opposite to date on this subject | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
that is wrong, confused, and to put it kindly, oblivious to the record | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
of the last Labour government. Jon Hamm before addressing those points | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
I hope to strike a note of consensus -- but before addressing those | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
points. Both sides of this House believe that all companies should | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
pay the taxes due under the law. They all believe that companies | :34:13. | :34:19. | |
should refrain from contrived behaviour to reduce tax liabilities | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
and all taxpayers should be treated impartially. This is why our record | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
is one of taking domestic and international action to tackle tax | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
avoidance. I will set out details of that action, Madam Debord is bigger | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
but first I want to address another issue. The approach from the Shadow | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
Chancellor, the party opposite, has generated more heat than light and | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
often reveals a complete misunderstanding of how the | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
corporation tax system works. Let me take this opportunity to explain to | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
the House how it does work. The Independent Institute for Fiscal | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
Studies in a paper they published last week puts it very well. I | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
quote. The current tax rules are not designed to tax the profits from UK | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
sales. There are certainly not designed to tax either revenue or | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
sales generated in the UK. They are instead designed to tax that part of | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
a firm's profit that arises from valley created in the UK. That's the | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
principle underlying all corporate tax regimes across the OECD. I make | :35:28. | :35:34. | |
that point because it is fundamental to understanding the tax we are | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
entitled to receive from multinational companies, and it is | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
not a point that the Shadow Chancellor appears to have grasped. | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
Let me give an example of why this matters. It is similar to the point | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
made by my honourable friend the Member for Dudley South. I will make | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
this point and then certainly give way to the Shadow Chancellor. The UK | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
is to one of the most successful video games sectors in the world. | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
Would it be fair for a firm to design a game here, develop it here, | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
take the risks here and then go on to sell and overseas and then have | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
to pay corporation tax on all of that activity in the country in | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
which they make the final sale, not in the UK? The current international | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
tax arrangements are clear that these profits are taxed in the UK, | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
place of economic activity, rather than in the place with a sales are | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
made. That is the internationally agreed and applied concept of | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
corporation tax. That is the law that HMRC applies. And quoting | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
numbers to do with revenues, or profits from sales as opposed to | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
activities, demonstrates a lack of understanding of how the tax system | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
works, well, and this is worse, and understanding of the way that the | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
tax system works Jon Hamm hope that those following the debates do not. | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
I will give Is the minister saying Google | :37:01. | :37:12. | |
employs 3200 staff in this country on an average salary of ?160,000 and | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
they cannot be defined as economic activity or add any value, what are | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
they doing? Playing cards all the time? Are they not a sizeable | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
proportion of the Google workforce? The point I am making is the Shadow | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
Chancellor goes around quoting numbers based on profits for sales, | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
to be fair he went through the methodology carefully in the House | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
today. But it is a methodology that appears to be based on a | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
misunderstanding of how the tax system works. I will give way. I | :37:45. | :37:55. | |
don't have a misunderstanding of how corporation tax is applied, but | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
without the information from HMRC and publication of the deal, it is | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
difficult to know exactly much tax they should be paying, which is why | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
we are seeking answers. Also, with eight billion dollars of royalty | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
payments to Bermuda, does the honourable gentleman really think | :38:14. | :38:15. | |
that is where the economic activity and value is being added? I will | :38:16. | :38:24. | |
come to the issue of transparency in a moment. I will deal with that | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
directly. In terms of the issue of how our international tax system | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
works, having explained it is based on economic activity, I would say it | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
is an international tax system that needs to be brought into the modern | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
world. That is the reason why the UK has led the way on the profit | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
shifting process. We should be aware also there are particular issues | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
with the US tax system that is failing to tax international | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
property developed in the US in the way that it should do. I have given | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
the example of video games companies. I recognise there are | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
cases that are more complex, where it is not so easy to identify where | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
the economic activity takes place. There is an issue about how | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
multinational companies allocate their profits and where they | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
identify the economic activity taking place. There is a need to | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
address that point. And that is why we need to have tax rules that | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
genuinely reflect where economic activity is taking place and ensure | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
profits are aligned with that. It is a different matter from making the | :39:39. | :39:46. | |
claims about profits from sales and then saying, well, those sales | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
profits have to be where the sales take place. That is the | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
misunderstanding I wish to address. Good evening he is right, sometimes | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
these issues are complicated but there are loopholes that are | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
complicated. Can he explain some of the loopholes opened by the previous | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
Labour government? There is a whole host I could draw attention to. In | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
the interest of time, I will not run through the lengthy list, it is here | :40:16. | :40:27. | |
actually. There is quite a number of cases where 40 cases I can identify | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
straightaway, where there where loopholes available and that is why | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
we have tried to address it. But I would particularly make a point, and | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
I will come back to this in detail in a moment, the diverted profits | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
tax was brought in. I will deal with the details on that. It is designed | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
to ensure that where companies divert their profits away from the | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
UK, where the economic activity is happening in the UK, we get some of | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
the tax yield. The difficulty with the economic activity test he talks | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
about, is it is intrinsically judgmental. But gives us many of the | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
issues we tried to grapple with. It came in in the 1920s, before the | :41:14. | :41:20. | |
Internet. Might it not be a way forward we move more to taxing sales | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
and if necessary, dividends and less on corporation tax which takes these | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
judgments away? The first point to make is we have got a debate today | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
on the operation of the tax law as it currently stands, not as some | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
people might think it should be. To be fair to HMRC they can only | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
collect tax on the law as it stands and not how people want it to be. In | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
terms of reform of this area, I think there is no reason why we | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
should not be these matters. I would just make the point, if it is a move | :41:54. | :42:00. | |
towards profits on the basis of sales, and there is a perfectly | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
respectable case for reform in that direction, I would be worried about | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
the impact on the UK's creative sector, the scientific centre. I | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
have mentioned the video games sector, we could look at | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
pharmaceuticals and there are a number of areas where the UK could | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
be losing out and businesses in our constituencies would lose out in | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
those circumstances. I would just be a bit wary about that. Can I bring | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
the honourable gentleman back to the fundamental point about | :42:32. | :42:33. | |
transparency? It would make this debate more useful and easy if he | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
would publish the details of this deal in full, so we can be sure | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
we're not talking about eightrates and talking about a special tax | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
loophole for Google? I will come to the issue of transparency, but let's | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
talk about the record of this government in terms of changing | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
domestic law and leading the way in updating the international tax | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
system. This is the government that has led internationally on the G20 | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
and the OECD profit shifting project, making the international | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
tax rules fit the 21st-century. The Prime Minister and the Chancellor of | :43:13. | :43:14. | |
the Exchequer, in particular, took on highly prominent roles in | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
initiating discussions and taking it through the G20 and the OECD. It | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
will level the playing field, give tax authorities more effective tools | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
to tackle aggressive tax planning and better aligned taxable profits | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
with the location of economic activities and value creation. Can I | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
make more progress? This is a major step forward in addressing the | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
underlying causes of aggressive tax avoidance. We have been at the | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
forefront of implementing this agenda, acting swiftly to change the | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
rules on hybrid mismatches and country by country reporting. | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
Because we consider it important not to rely on international rules, we | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
have legislated domestically to introduce a world leading measure to | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
address the contrived a shifting of profit from this country, the | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
diverted profits tax. Let me make this point... The diverted profits | :44:06. | :44:15. | |
tax targets companies who divert profits from the UK, principally | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
those with substantial activities in the UK who are trying to avoid | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
creating a UK permanent establishment. Under these rules, | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
the companies either declare the correct amount of profits in the UK | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
and pay the full amount of corporation tax on them, or risk | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
being charged a higher amount of diverted profits taxed at a rate of | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
25%. By the end of this Parliament, diverted profits tax will raise 1.3 | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
billion pounds, both directly and as a result of associated behavioural | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
changes. Already we are seeing the diverted profits tax having that | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
effect and we will see multinationals paying more | :44:59. | :45:00. | |
corporation tax as a result. I will give way.. The diverted traffic tax | :45:01. | :45:09. | |
was related to as the Google tax. Under the related deal, Google will | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
not pay a penny, is he right about that? The purpose of the diverted | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
profits tax is to deter companies from divert in the profits. We don't | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
want companies to divert their profits. The purpose of the diverted | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
traffic tax which came into effect in April, is to ensure that | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
companies stop divert in their profits and pay corporation tax like | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
everybody else. I cannot talk about the Google case, other than | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
information that is in the public domain. But, the point being, if it | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
is effective in driving companies to stop divert in their profits, then | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
it is a success. Good evening I thank the Minister. He refers to the | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
government over the last government, but hasn't talked about the changes | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
which favoured a number of companies at the expense of the exchequer here | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
and in net terms of the much greater expense of the exchequer is in | :46:18. | :46:25. | |
developing countries. We are now in a position where businesses are | :46:26. | :46:27. | |
looking to locate their headquarters in the UK. It is something I am | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
pleased about. The Minister is making an important point about the | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
diverted profits tax. It is something we all recognise that this | :46:40. | :46:41. | |
important development was brought in by this development. It is not | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
correct to say the Labour Party supported the diverted traffic tax. | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
A year ago, the Labour Party's position said it wasn't wise to | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
bring in the diverted profits tax until something else was completed. | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
How do we take the advice of the Shadow Chancellor, there would be no | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
diverted profits tax. The point being made by the party opposite | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
would be irrelevant. I am grateful to my honourable friend, he reminds | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
the House of an important point. What I would say, when we brought in | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
the diverted profits tax, it was clear the intention was to ensure we | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
got more money being paid in corporation tax and we want to stop | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
companies by averting the profits out of the UK and we are leading the | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
way in bringing forward legislation on this. Let me address the point | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
that was raised by the Shadow Chancellor about resources for her | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
HMRC. We have invested heavily in HMRC's ability to strengthen the | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
anti-evasion and compliance activity, including two extra | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
funding and hiring professionals, whose area of expertise is | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
multinational companies. For example, contrary to the impression | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
the Shadow Chancellor gives, the number of people working in HMRC's | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
large business directorate has gone up since it was formed in 2014 from | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
2000 to 2600 people. We believe in competitive taxes, that is why we | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
have got our rate of corporation tax so it is the lowest in the G-7, but | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
we also believe in making sure those taxes are paid. Let me address the | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
issue of transparency and number of have raised. Taxpayer | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
confidentiality is a fundamentally important principle of our tax | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
system, as it is in the tax systems of every other major economy. I hear | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
complaints HMRC are not disclosing full details of the settlement. HMRC | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
are prevented by law from disclosing taxpayer information. But the | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
resolution of tax disputes is however, subject to full external | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
scrutiny by the independent National Audit Office. The independent | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
National Audit Office has reviewed how tax enquiries are concluded by | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
HMRC. In 2012 it appointed a retired High Court judge to investigate | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
HMRC's large as the settlement process. He concluded all | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
settlements he scrutinised were reasonable and the overall outcome | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
for the exchequer was good. I will give way, but I wish those who are | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
keen to accuse HMRC and the staff of sweetheart deals, were also quite | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
keen to look at what happens when independent scrutiny occurs to see | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
that in fact, there are no sweetheart deals. HMRC... I will | :49:39. | :49:50. | |
wake. I am grateful to the Minister, who is doing his best in a difficult | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
situation. However, it is not the case ministers are barred by law | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
from publishing the minutes of meetings which they have. Could he | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
now publish the minutes of all the 25 meetings which ministers have had | :50:07. | :50:15. | |
with Google? We have a very open and transparent arrangements in terms of | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
disclosure of meetings. But I can be very, very clear on this, when it | :50:19. | :50:25. | |
comes to determining the tax liability of a company like Google, | :50:26. | :50:33. | |
or indeed any other taxpayer in this country, there is no ministerial | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
involvement. HMRC are entirely operationally independent. There is | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
no ministerial interference or any suggestion they would be in these | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
areas. This is a matter, when it comes to determining the tax bill of | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
any taxpayer, it is a matter of HMRC enforcing the law and not for | :50:55. | :51:02. | |
ministerial involvement. HMRC introduced new governance | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
arrangements for tax disputes in 2012 to provide even greater | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
transparency, scrutiny and accountability, including the | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
appointment of attacks assurance Commissioner, to ensure clear | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
separation between those who negotiate and those who approves | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
settlements. This tax assurance Commissioner oversees the process | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
and publishes an annual report on his word. Let me be absolutely | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
clear, there are no sweetheart deals, no special treatment for | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
large businesses. HMRC only resolve disputes by agreements, if the | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
business agrees to pay the full amount of tax, penalties and | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
interest. Otherwise it is a matter for the courts, an arena HMRC has a | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
strong track record of fighting and winning. I will give way. I thank | :51:50. | :51:58. | |
him forgiving way. If it is so independent and ministers are so far | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
removed from this process, how can he give us the assurance and how can | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
the Chancellor hailed that the deal was such a major success? We have in | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
place strong governance. We have in place a situation where the NGO has | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
looked in the past at settlement went accusations have been made of | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
sweetheart deals and they have been dismissed. It is very clear HMRC's | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
remit is to get the tax due under the law. No one, at any point, has | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
produced any shred of evidence to suggest otherwise, other than just | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
prejudice they can insult HMRC staff, whatever. | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, let me give way to my honourable friend. Would | :52:48. | :52:54. | |
the Minister agree that this is welcome because we collected ?130 | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
million in tax from Google when the side opposite collected nothing. It | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
does seem to be the case that nothing was collected in that case. | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
I need to press an Madam Deputy Speaker. Tax avoidance is a global | :53:09. | :53:16. | |
issue requiring global solutions. Food for partnerships with other | :53:17. | :53:19. | |
countries on these matters are partly why this government has been | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
at the forefront of efforts to increase tax Baron Seri C -- tracks | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
transparency which we pledged in the manifesto to review the | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
implementation of the new international country by country tax | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
reporting rules and consider the case for making this information | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
publicly available on a multilateral basis. This government is dedicated | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
to increasing tax transparency and has already taken action. Last week | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
the UK signed an agreement with 30 other tax administrations to share | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
country by country reports from next year, we want agreements so that | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
information can be made public as spelt out in our manifesto and we | :54:00. | :54:01. | |
will continue to lead any multilateral debates on tax | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
transparency as we have in so many areas of international tax | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
avoidance. Madam Deputy Speaker, reforming international and domestic | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
rules, investing in the capacity of HMRC, leading the way on global | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
transparency, action taken by this government, action is sadly lacking | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
from the 13 years of Labour. Madam Deputy Speaker, the result of this | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
action is an extra hundred and ?30 million to the Treasury from Google, | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
on top of the tax paid, an amount which under Labour was next to | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
nothing. Testament to the importance given to tackling the tax risks from | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
multinational enterprises. Last month's announcement represents an | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
important result of these actions and I can assure honourable members | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
that we will continue to work as a gender in the coming years, giving | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
the Exchequer more money to fund public services that we rely on and | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
I urge this House to support the government's amendment. Thank you Mr | :55:02. | :55:14. | |
Deputy Speaker. This is a very important to debate for all of the | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
people who have commented outside this House, weather is great | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
concern. Yet it also has to be admitted that this is a complex | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
matter, one that may require in the longer run fundamental reform and | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
international corporation, there are no easy fixes. Of course Google, | :55:32. | :55:40. | |
this deal needs to be scrutinised for the sake of all those who are | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
concerned that this might be described as a sweetheart deal. This | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
is why I fully is aborted my SNP colleague the honourable member for | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
Dundee East in taking the initiative in this issue and being the first | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
person to write to the independent commission and seek an independent | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
examination. Of course there is a lack of transparency in the deal but | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
of course these are difficult matters and we may have to look at | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
changing some of the rules regarding fat in the longer run. -- regarding | :56:12. | :56:19. | |
that. The recent agreement between Google and HMRC is too many people | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
very obscure and opaque and gives the appearance of being very | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
generous to a large multinational corporation. It contrasts sharply | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
with the experience of many local small and medium-sized businesses | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
and I will be astonished if I am the only member in this House that is | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
not received comment from innumerable small businesses about | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
the unfairness that they perceive that this deal has brought to bear. | :56:47. | :56:54. | |
If I could be allowed to quote from two businesses in my own | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
constituency, it is galling that my business pays its taxes on time and | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
in full yet huge corporations like Google do not, and seem to be able | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
to avoid doing so figures. Services Jim Cruickshank -- so says Jim | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
Cruickshank of a glazing company. And secondly, it seems that there | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
are stringent rules for small domestic businesses but much easier | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
time for larger companies. This often gives unfair competitive | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
advantages to the large companies, says Stuart Manley of Kirkaldy. And | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
that too is a concern for many of our domestic businesses, many of | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
these largest corporations, because of the tax affairs and the | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
complexity and the way in which they are able to work in many cases, | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
legitimately in the system, find themselves having a major | :57:52. | :57:53. | |
competitive advantage against domestic businesses. I am grateful | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
for the honourable gentleman forgiving way. It does not contrast | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
with the way that S M Es in the UK feel they have been treated with the | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
impression that there is one tax law for them and another for large | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
multinational companies. It also contrasts the British approach with | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
the way that some of our European colleagues are approaching the same | :58:19. | :58:22. | |
issues and who are holding out for a much better deal for their tax | :58:23. | :58:29. | |
payers. Many people throughout Britain will feel that the | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
honourable member has made a very fair point. Which is why I have | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
argued that we must do something to have a proper investigation and by | :58:36. | :58:42. | |
perhaps in the longer run we need to do something about transparency, | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
otherwise it is difficult for us to bring to bear a proper critique | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
unless you get that clarity. This is not a new phenomenon. I first became | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
aware of concerns about this issue regarding multinationals back in | :59:00. | :59:12. | |
1970s I briefly worked for IBM. I am aware two of concerns that predate | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
that, so this has not been going on for a couple of years, this has been | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
an issue for decades that governments have not been able to | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
satisfactorily resolve. Emphasising its complexity. It is an issue that | :59:28. | :59:35. | |
has been around for a long time regardless of whether in this | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
country that has been a Conservative or a Labour government and | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
regardless of the government in many other countries. Back in the early | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
1970s I remember that the concerns then were about what is called | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
transfer pricing where in one company could buy a handle from the | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
parent company in another country and charge an exorbitant fee for it | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
and that allowed them to easily transfer profits from one area to | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
another. Now I am the first to admit that since the 1970s there have been | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
moves to tighten up on many of these matters but it remains a fundamental | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
problem to this day. And corporation tax does seem to be a tax that is | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
very susceptible to avoidance by multinational corporations because | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
of the way that they are quite legally able to operate. Speaking of | :00:27. | :00:35. | |
transfer pricing the Public Accounts Committee found, Mr Debord is | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
bigger, that the HMRC as a whole had only 65 specialists in transfer | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
pricing which was the same as each of the big four accounting firms. | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
Does he welcomed this government's introduction of more transfer | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
pricing specialists into HMRC? Punch Mike those people who wish to speak, | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
without intervening, they if they go to the bottom of the list because | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
they have almost used up their time. Roger Mullin. I think the honourable | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
member for his intervention. I was not aware of only 65 involved in | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
transfer pricing which does seem to me remarkably little given the | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
challenge that it has faced. So I would welcome anything that is done | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
to strengthen that. Times have been changing. Back in the 1970s it was | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
never envisaged that huge multinational corporations could | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
quickly rise and operate in the world of the Internet. The tax | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
system built up over many years, one honourable member mentioned from the | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
1920s, is singularly unable to deal with some of the types of | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
corporations like Facebook and Google that we have today. And the | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
world also has changed, in other regards. I am old enough to remember | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
when I used to be able to go into a cafe and just ask for a copy! Surely | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
not! LAUGHTER | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
No air in delight it is that I know about cappuccinos and other things! | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
-- now I'm delighted to disable and I know about them! Including in my | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
constituency! Am delighted to say that I know about them. But I have | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
to say, the days of Starbucks were not present many years ago. The days | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
of internationalising what seemed simple products is something that is | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
a comparatively new phenomenon. And we must not lose sight that that | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
much more traditional companies who engage in practices which may be | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
legal yet create major challenges for international corporations. For | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
example if I were to ask a question in the local pub quiz which I rarely | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
frequent, of course... Because and linking copy! What would you | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
consider to be the biggest charity in the world -- because of course | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
I'm drinking coffee. Many people would say it would be the Bill Gates | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
foundation, the economist has estimated that is worth about ?37 | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
billion. Few would be able to say, as the Economist pointed out some | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
years ago, it is a charitable body whose aims include the advancement | :03:27. | :03:35. | |
of architecture and interior design. This charitable foundation owns Inge | :03:36. | :03:46. | |
Holding and they owned the IKEA group. This setup, much more complex | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
than I just described, moves money across territories such as the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
Netherlands, Luxembourg, into sets in and and so on, and the money is | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
not even trapped within that foundation. The IKEA trademark is | :04:04. | :04:14. | |
owned by another private company. Inter-IKEA Systems. So just to | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
operate IKEA stores, the charity hast to meet substantial yearly | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
payments and eventually this trail is thought to lead back to the | :04:27. | :04:35. | |
owning family. When you have such complexity come even more complex | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
than I have tried to summarise, we can see that type of international | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
challenge and why the current tax regime is not well equipped to cope | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
and why we need fundamental reform. And there are other examples. Let me | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
give you another glimpse of a tactic used by offshore companies. There | :04:55. | :05:04. | |
are approximately 19,000 registered businesses at one single address in | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
the Cayman Islands. That must be a pretty big house! | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
LAUGHTER Full of IKEA furniture! Indeed, it | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
has been claimed by Oxfam, I haven't checked this, so I can only say it | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
has been claimed by Oxfam, that 98 of the FTSE 100 companies have | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
subsidiaries in tax havens. And there's a wider ethical question. | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
This is not merely about how international corporations may pay | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
tax. Some countries are much more vulnerable than the UK. And there | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
are particular concerns which the honourable member is already raised | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
in the developing world, some 30% of Africa's Wealth is held offshore. | :05:57. | :06:05. | |
Research has found that developing countries lose ?200 billion a year | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
from tax avoidance, more than they get in all forms of foreign aid. And | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
the UK itself needs to take a lead and hopefully we will see that when | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
the Prime Minister holds the anti-corruption Summit in May 2016 | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
because the UK remains at the centre of some global networks. I'm | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. Does he also think | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
given it is three years since the Prime Minister promised to clamp | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
down on tax evasions and publish the organisations people, UK-based | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
companies in these overseas territories, that he should fulfil | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
his obligations? A manifesto commitment he has failed to fulfil. | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
I agree with the honourable member, but hopefully he will fulfil that at | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
the conference he will chair shortly. We shall wait and see. I | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
shall conclude with another example close to the heart of the Scottish | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
people. And that is our historic links in them allow me. We launched | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
a new campaign this week calling for the UK to offer to negotiate a | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
fairer tax treaty with Malawi. We have got some strong and important | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
links in every constituency, in Scotland we have links with Malawi. | :07:35. | :07:42. | |
The tax treaty was signed in 1955 under British colonial rule and | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
limits the ability of the government of Malawi to collect tax revenues | :07:47. | :07:53. | |
from UK firms operating there. Preventing it from raising money | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
that poor country desperately needs. It is right there should be a | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
thorough investigation into the Google settlement. It is right we | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
should press for greater transparency. But it is also right | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
we should now press the UK to take an international lead in addressing | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
the corrupt tax avoidance practices of the many and not just the few. | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
Getting our own House in order would be a fine start. I shall do my best | :08:26. | :08:35. | |
to make the most of the three minutes available to me. This is a | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
complicated area. Whilst we seem to have two approaches on either side | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
of the House, the Shadow Chancellor was very rational in his approach | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
and I recognise how strongly there are feelings around this topic. When | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
you look at the approach from the Minister, it was a very measured and | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
detailed approach. Unfortunately, the tax system has to be approached | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
from a methodical and detailed way and cannot be emotional. I can | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
understand the strength of those motions and I understand how people | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
feel some of these large international companies don't pay | :09:18. | :09:19. | |
the fairway. But we are blessed with the global taxation system | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
agreement, whereby you actually pay, not on the profit that you make in | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
that country, but where you add the value, where you create the IP of | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
those subjects, if you like. I turn to the SNP spokesman who talked | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
about the kill caddy from shop, clearly excellent produce from his | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
shop, but if he were to export his poor pies to parity would expect to | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
pay the profit on that caught pike in Scotland and not in Paris. That | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
is the way this country has benefited a great deal. If we look | :10:00. | :10:07. | |
at my own constituency, it has Rolls-Royce, fantastic international | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
company where they create a world leading jet engines. A use | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
manufacturers and subsidiaries all over the world, but those dividends | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
and the profit of that company should be paid to the UK taxpayer | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
and not to other countries in the world. The Minister already made | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
reference to the video games industry. In Nottinghamshire we were | :10:28. | :10:38. | |
create the -- blessed with Boots who created new offence and the profits | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
for those drugs should stay in this country. I was lucky enough to go | :10:47. | :10:52. | |
and see the latest James Bond movie, created at Pinewood Studios in the | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
UK. The profits from those movies, the tax should be paid in this | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
country and not all over the world. I turn to the opposition and say | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
what happened under the regime, frankly no tax was gained from | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
Google. I am running out of time, but we need to recognise it is more | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
important to get some of those profits, rather than all of nothing | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
if they are exported to other countries. Thank you. | :11:21. | :11:30. | |
I think the most bizarre feature of the row over the last ten days is | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
both Google and the Chancellor but they had landed a PR coup. Frankly I | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
think the arrogance of Google and the hopelessness of our government | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
takes some beating. Look at Google's results announced this week, they | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
claim to be the world's most valuable company. A claim with pride | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
they have put the tax rate from 18% down to 5%. If you look at the man | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
of the top, the man who is very proud of the tax structure, it is | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
called capitalism, in 2014 alone he was paid ?76 million and that is the | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
equivalent of well over half of what Google paid the British public for | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
all of the money they made out of the British public over ten years. | :12:18. | :12:27. | |
Would she agree with me, or is she concerned, the Google agreement | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
could present a threat to future tax revenues by setting a very dangerous | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
resident? I agree with that entirely and the Minister talked about work | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
that was done by the Public Accounts Committee, the law is not a complete | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
ass. I don't believe that. When they looked at ten cases, I will be | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
corrected if I'm wrong, they found three where the HMRC had not abided | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
by its own rules. Every time something like this happens, it | :12:57. | :13:05. | |
damages British jobs and British business and we have the Goldman | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
Sachs example where a sweetheart deal was definitely entered into, | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
one we have proof of. It was five cases and in every single case, Sir | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
Andrew Parker concluded it was reasonable and the overall result | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
for the Exchequer was good. Those are the facts. With the greatest | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
respect, they are not the facts, the judge looked at five cases, the NAO | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
look at ten cases and found in three of those big HMRC had not abided by | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
its own rules. I think the reason his Chancellor and the team don't | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
get it, is because of the people they talk to about tax. There is a | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
small army of tax professionals and multinational companies who are the | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
only people with whom they conversed. I have to say to the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
Minister, there is a difference between good working relationships, | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
which I applaud, and undue preference and preferential | :14:04. | :14:05. | |
treatment, which I don't. There is the good thing about talking to | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
stakeholders, there is the bad thing about being captured by | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
stakeholders. We have to look at the evidence, not just the 25 meetings | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
held with Google, but the professional tax Forum, the members | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
are KPMG, Ernst and Young, nobody, nobody from any of the tax | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
campaigning organisations, nobody from any of the charities and no | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
academic with a different view. If we look at Ernst and Young, they | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
made ?250 million over recent years in advising Google, apple, Facebook | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
and others. We look at what the Minister has done. He appointed | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
David Heaton from Baker Tilly which was supposed to look at closing the | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
loopholes. That particular gentleman was captured on video describing, | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
and I quote," ways to keep the money out of the Chancellor's grubby | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
hands". If we look at what happened at Dave Hartnett within six months | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
of going to work at HMRC and with any year of going to work at | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
Deloitte. And also the Commissioner on taxation who wrote in the | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
Financial Times, taxation is legalised extortion. This is a small | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
bunch of people who all have the same interest and do not have the | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
widest interests at heart. The government says it wants companies | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
to paid drop attacks, but the government is obsessed with tax | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
competition. That means that far from tackling tax havens, it is | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
trying to make the UK and alternative best tax haven in the | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
world. You only have to look at the changes this government brought | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
through uncontrolled foreign company rules, Europa one or even the | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
infamous tax relief, those three examples to see it is right. We | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
don't know if the Google settlement was fair, because under the existing | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
law, the Minister is right, we cannot see it. I do not accept HMRC | :16:10. | :16:17. | |
properly challenged Google on the evidence of the Public Accounts | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
Committee collected, which demonstrated there was economic | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
activity here in the UK. I personally don't think the | :16:27. | :16:28. | |
whistle-blowers were properly listen to. Google do sell here, they do | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
complete sales here, they do to economic activity here. What is that | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
massive complex in King's Cross for if it is not to undertake economic | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
activity? The Minister has lost the argument on transparency and he | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
should cave in gracefully and open the books month a national | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
company... Order, order. Nigel Huddleston. May I first draw members | :16:58. | :17:03. | |
attention to the register of interests by declaring drier to the | :17:04. | :17:12. | |
2015 general election, I worked for Google. I must make it very clear I | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
am not a spokesperson for Google, I did make, in my maiden speech, made | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
it clear I do wish to be an advocate for the Internet and digital set is | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
in the UK, which at 12.4% of GDP, is the largest of any Internet sector | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
in the world, greater than Germany, France and double the size of the | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
US. But the point of whether Google or any of these Internet companies | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
pays its fair share of tax is a reasonable one? Google does many | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
things, deciding on tax law is not one of them. That is very squarely | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
the responsibility of this place. We make those decisions in here. If we | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
want to change the laws, it is our responsibility. Corporation tax, | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
like income tax, is not a voluntary tax. You pay what you owe, no more, | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
no less, according to the law. HMRC do a very good job at implementing | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
that law and the difficult circumstances. In particular the | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
companies that are complex, that deal internationally where it is | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
difficult to hold intangible products, where there is | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
international poverty and transfer pricing involved and customers are | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
served from multiple territories. What really really need to do, as | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
Mike honourable friend made a valid point, is update the international | :18:34. | :18:35. | |
trade laws because international trade is as likely to be conducted | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
with the push of a button as being shipped in canisters and widgets | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
from country to country. Our tax laws, some of them are as old as the | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
1920s. While this government is trying to make progress and has | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
closed many loopholes, we have a lot more to do. Nothing should be taken | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
out of consideration. We should consider whether corporation tax in | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
its current form is still fit for purpose and the valid comments about | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
establishing international property in international tax havens, whether | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
it is valid or not, is a fair one to investigate. I have one final thing | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
to say. We must remember Google was only founded in 1998, it makes it a | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
teenager. Like many of the other major Internet companies, they are | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
teenagers. Teenagers make mistakes and they need guiding. It is up to | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
us and the responsibility of a responsible parents, to make sure we | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
reset the ground rules on behaviour. The Google tax to Barca will | :19:39. | :19:51. | |
demonstrate attempts to patch up the current international tax system are | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
clearly, woefully inadequate. Despite the overhaul, it appears | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
unlikely corporate tax will be an optional extra for most | :20:05. | :20:06. | |
multinational companies going forward. The UK's tax treaties, this | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
is to do with Ireland as well in terms of Google, would allow UK | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
firms to allow their tax payments often in countries it is most | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
needed, to fund hard pressed the big services. According to the IMF, | :20:24. | :20:32. | |
recent calculation show developing countries are taking 200 billion a | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
year in tax avoidance by companies. The OECD has estimated tax havens | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
could be costing these countries three times the global aid budget | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
currently. The value flowing out of countries is huge from companies not | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
paying the tax. An estimated one trillion dollars a year, in context | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
Africa is a net creditor to the world in terms of the taxi loses | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
from multinational companies operating in their jurisdictions. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
According to Oxfam, corporate tax avoidance in the form of trade | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
mispricing by the G-7 -based companies and investor costs, Africa | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
six billion in 2010. More than enough to improve the health care | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
systems of the bowler affected countries of Sierra Leone and New | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
Guinea. Then anonymous shell companies on the British version | :21:34. | :21:35. | |
Isles using minor concessions in the Democratic Republic of Congo for 275 | :21:36. | :21:43. | |
million. They were sold for 1.6 three billion or twice the combined | :21:44. | :21:52. | |
health or education budget. What is to be done? David Cameron is hosting | :21:53. | :21:59. | |
an anti-corruption Summit in May and inviting heads of state from all | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
over the world to London. How can the UK lecture other countries in | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
what they should be doing in tax avoidance and corruption when the | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
Crown dependencies in overseas Territories in our own | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
constitutional backyards are such purveyors of secrecy. I argued with | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
the minister about this on radio five just before the election, we | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
need to insist multinationals public accounts in every country, insist | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
they clean up the backyard by making British link tax havens that cannot | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
continue to act as conduits for tax dodging. We need to stop applying | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
sticking plasters to a broken OECD tax rules mandate and the UN to | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
develop a set of rules that show big business pay their fair share of tax | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
on every country in which they do business in. | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
I think it would be unfair. Mr deputy speaker, I will be great. The | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
member for Wythenshawe said that paying corporation tax is an | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
optional extra. If he is right, and there are good arguments, it is | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
because of the unbridled complexity of the system. The character... When | :23:10. | :23:18. | |
I went to the Public Accounts Committee tax conference organised | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
by the Right honourable member for Barking, the Dame Professor lady | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
right honourable lady for barking, I discovered the tax code is 17,000 | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
pages long. That is the central problem. If you made the Bible ten | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
times longer, you would not expect there to be less work for | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
theologians. This is what we need to sort out fundamentally. The | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
complexity is not always avoidable in a mature economy but there are | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
things that one can do to make it simpler. The office of tax | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
simplification actually examined 155 different tax reliefs for the | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
possibility of abolishing them. It recommended 47 for abolition and 43 | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
actually were abolished but, over the same period, it introduced, or I | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
should say the government of the day through this place introduced 134 | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
new tax reliefs. That gave a total, according to the office of text | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
implication, 1140 tax reliefs. HMRC had thought there were only 398, so | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
you can see how extraordinarily complex this is. That is the problem | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
which needs tackling. If the system can only be dealt with with a high | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
priestly caste and you combine that with a global economy you will get | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
what we have got. It is this government which introduced the idea | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
of the office of tax simplification and this government has started to | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
do something about flattening and simplifying the system. There is | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
also the question of the cost. Sometimes tax relief costs a lot | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
more than HMRC expects. When the right honourable lady introduced a | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
film tax credit, she was horrified to find that, using the law of the | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
land, some clever entrepreneurs and accountants went round doing things | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
which bore some relations but perhaps, for her taste, too | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
tangential in relation to UK film activity but were which in the law. | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
They ended up costing taxpayers hundreds of millions more than was | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
expected. This government is actually starting to tackle the | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
problem. It hasn't made all of the progress it needs to. It is a very | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
big problem indeed but at least it is starting to tackle it. The | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
previous government didn't collect this tax. This government is making | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
a start and I commend its activity. I am highly enamoured of the record | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
of the last Labour government, particularly its treasury policies, | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
and I'm grateful to my right honourable friend for drawing | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
attention to the Financial Times assessment of the comparative record | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
of the Labour government and the governments since then, reported on | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
in an article in the newspaper last February. That article makes three | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
very important points to set the record straight. First, it says the | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
current Chancellor, and I quote, has raised much less income than the | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
last Labour government from reforms to tackle corporate tax avoidance, | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
much less than was the record of the last Labour government. The second | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
point has already been referred to by my honourable friend in his | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
introduction, and I'm quoting directly, measures put in place by | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
Labour during its 13 years in power to counter corporate tax avoidance | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
are projected to raise ten times as much over the next four years as | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
those introduced by the Coalition Government. The third point, the | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
important point, the coalition, and I quote again, eased laws aimed at | :26:57. | :27:04. | |
stopping corporates using tax havens which had been repeatedly tightened | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
under Labour. That is the difference between the record of the government | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
that I was a Treasury minister in and the current government. It was, | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
in fact, Labour in government that did the heavy lifting on corporate | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
tax avoidance. The new government was elected, with different | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
priorities, and it is entitled to that, but it cannot claim that it | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
has maintained the progress that was made by Labour in government, | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
because it hasn't. I also want to make a comment about country by | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
country reporting. I welcome that the government seems now to be | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
supporting that. Those close to the process and find it difficult to | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
recognise the claim that this government has let on that since | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
2010. We certainly were leading on it prior to that. The original idea | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
for country by country reporting was devised by Richard Murphy, about who | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
we have heard a lot more in the last couple of years. It was first | :28:03. | :28:09. | |
brought to me when I was occupying the Minister's office by Christian | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
Aid, and I pay tribute to their work on this. They came to see me in | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
early 2009 and there were a series of meetings in Berlin and Paris and | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
others. I was able to put this on the agenda, culminating in a joint | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
meeting, I think, the first joint meeting of the OECD tax and | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
development amity in January 2010 in Paris, which kicked off the process | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
I am delighted the government is now swinging behind. But it was Labour | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
in government which started this off and it is entitled to credit for | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
that. I start by saying that it is rich to attack this government for | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
collecting tax. Big multinational corporations cannot carry on as they | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
have in the past and they must expect to pay more tax. Google's | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
payment is an important step forward to address the long-standing problem | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
that larger corporations were not paying fair amount of tax in the | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
past, under the last Labour government. Let's be clear today. | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
Any debate about that last tax in particular and aggressive tax | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
avoidance debate in general are of course about the gap is a -- as | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
against what passed law asked to be collected. Today's debate should | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
rightly look ahead to whether and how our laws should change to | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
collect more. Let's start with an understanding of the present tax | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
gap, reported to be ?24 billion, 6.4% of tax liabilities. Let's have | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
another look at what else is ?34 billion might buy you. It is half | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
the deficit that the side opposite also let us, whereas public sector | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
net borrowing is around... ?34 billion is three times more the pay | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
bill for nurses, Mr Deputy Speaker. Let's break it down further and give | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
international examples. Just ?1 billion would buy what we have | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
contributed to be Ross and in the global fight against malaria. Let's | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
also look at what that is made up of. Only one third is committed by | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
large businesses. One half is in fact committed by small and | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
medium-sized businesses, with the rest made up by what I take to the | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
individuals in error and criminals in malice. We need to take to looks | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
at this. First, is the law applied fairly? We should expect HMRC to | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
collect as much as physically possible from every source, large | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
and small, mistaken or malicious, under a fair application of existing | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
law. Second, is the law fair itself and let's address whether and how | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
our law needs to change further to ask for more tax. This is an | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
international question and I welcome the OECD work on base erosion and | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
profit shifting. I look forward to scrutinising the results in the | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
finance bill to come, perhaps, because it is ready to implement. I | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
welcome the government's leadership on a diverted profits tax and I look | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
forward to hearing a summary of what it has brought in in its first year. | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
In summary, I want tough action to ensure law companies pay their fair | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
share of tax. I want more tax to be collected. I want the laws we | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
already have two be used. I want new laws to be reported upon carefully | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
so my constituents can be assured we are collecting what we need and I | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
want Britain to continue to lead the world in the OECD's implementation | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
in a sensible set of international measures. Thank you for allowing me | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
the opportunity to contribute to this very important debate. I was | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
originally going to start this speech by going through the | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
alphabet, naming different companies which didn't pay their fair share of | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
tax. Amazon, BP, Citigroup, Dell, eBay, Facebook, Google. Google. I | :32:01. | :32:09. | |
stopped at Google and went to the search engine of the same name and | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
searched for the word alphabet. I would assume that most people would | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
assume I would have found information on the alphabet. But, | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
no. What came up was alphabet incorporated. It turns out that the | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
Google we all know and use has created a parent company, and it is | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
called Alphabet. Alphabet is a multinational conglomerate created | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
last year, a parent company of Google and several other companies | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
previously owned by or tied to Google. It is the world's most | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
valuable company, even wealthier than Apple. However, it does have | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
something in common with Apple, the desire not to pay tax. In a world | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
which is increasingly becoming more and more connected, and as we seek | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
to develop far reaching global trade deals, we find ourselves in a | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
situation where multinational corporations are moving their money | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
and profits around the world. And we should be under no illusions as to | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
why they do this. It is to maximise their profits by reducing their tax | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
liability. So how do we make multinational companies pay their | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
tax, when they invest so much money and time in trying to dodge paying | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
them? Indeed, they use any system, loophole, avenue open to them to get | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
out of paying their tax obligation. With this Chancellor, they have even | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
got someone on the inside helping them out. Quite frankly, it sends | :33:52. | :33:59. | |
out the wrong message. Now, the Chancellor often referred to as the | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
octopus. With his tentacles reaching every part of government. He has | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
declared this tax deal with Google as a victory. He may be the octopus, | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
but we are not his suckers. He should publish the details of the | :34:16. | :34:23. | |
deal, show transparently what was agreed, deal with every loophole | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
which comes in forward and make sure we deal with the deficit by ensuring | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
that those who can pay do pay. I joined my colleagues today in | :34:35. | :34:36. | |
demanding that the government publish full details of the deal and | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
implement country by country reporting of company accounts. I | :34:41. | :34:48. | |
think this is a very timely debate and I am very grateful that I have | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
been given the opportunity to speak in it. I think it is important to | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
remember what the previous government actually did, because we | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
have got members of that government who are speaking eloquently, in many | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
cases, in this particular debate. It is absolutely relevant. That | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
actually gives us the context in which this debate has been called. | :35:11. | :35:19. | |
For 13 years, Labour were in power and, for at least the last five of | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
those years, these multinational companies, Amazon, Google, Apple, | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
paid almost no corporation tax whatsoever. That was the immediate | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
context. I know that the honourable member for East Ham is suggesting... | :35:36. | :35:43. | |
You know, is suggesting that that was a great record at that | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
government had. It wasn't great. These companies paid very little, | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
they paid very little, and this is the general context. It is quite | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
right for the Shadow Chancellor to bring up this debate. I think he | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
makes a reasonable point, that ordinary people, our constituents | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
expect companies to pay their fair share, but I would observe that the | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
very fact he points out with respect to Google employing thousands of | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
people at very high salaries, in a way, shows the success of Google. It | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
shows the success of this government in creating a business friendly | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
environment, in which these companies can operate. Every single | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
one of those employees are paid an average -- who are paid an average | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
of ?161,000 per year are contributing to the Treasury in the | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
form of income tax and other taxes. That fact should be observed. If we | :36:38. | :36:45. | |
are looking at actually being able to tax multinational companies, and | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
we have to consider the fact that, as the member for Sherwood | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
suggested, they are operating in lots of jurisdictions and, in many | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
cases, if they are not Internet companies, they will probably only | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
be paying tax in one country. There lots of variations we need to | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
consider. I don't think is right for members on the party opposite simply | :37:07. | :37:14. | |
to try and score political capital in a sensitive debate and in a | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
highly complicated debate. Lastly, as my honourable friend, the member | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
for South Norfolk, has said, the reason why do companies avoid tax is | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
because of the complexity. There is a direct correlation between their | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
propensity to avoid tax and the complexity of the system, and that | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
is something which the last Labour government had a pretty poor record | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
on. So this is a complete debate and I object to the fact that they are | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
scoring political points. He may have got more respect if he | :37:46. | :37:57. | |
listened with respect to the views of my right honourable friend, the | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
member for Barking. What we know? Google is valued at $524 billion, | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
the profits last year were ?11 billion, an increase of 1 billion in | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
a year, based on revenues of over ?52 billion. The Daily Mail reports | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
it has over 5000 UK-based employees, a 10th of their total workforce and | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
that includes 279 of their European, Middle East and African directors, | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
compared to Dublin, where they have 79 directors. They are constructing | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
a new headquarters worth 1 billion near King's Cross, on top of the | :38:38. | :38:46. | |
other five offices they have in the UK. I do not want to get into the | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
blame game. I want is to get the way we recover tax right. I believe | :38:51. | :38:52. | |
there are factors that did not help to focus on a growing problem. | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
Public finances up to 2008 were healthy, before netting 30% of tax | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
receipts from financial services which fell by 2009. The online | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
giants of today were largely below the radar and many floated before | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
making a penny profit. We look at the corporate giants, Twitter, | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
valued at ?18 billion on the day of flirtation, but it never made a | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
profit up to that point and would not do so for another year -- | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
flotation. When Google floated, its valuation was $23 billion, but it | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
did not turn profits we talk about today. That is not the case today. | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
The government after six years, with all the benefit of hindsight has | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
only achieved ?130 million of that we do not know how much is interest | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
or penalties they have had to pay. We have to do more on this. We can | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
add other household names to the list that paid no corporation tax in | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
2014. Shell, Lloyds Banking Group, AstraZeneca, SAB Miller, Vodafone, | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
British American Tobacco, six companies with a combined profit of | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
?30 billion in 2014 but notionally not making money in the UK. I will | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
give way. Does she not agree that initiatives like the fair tax mark, | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
like the fair trade stamp, should encourage companies to demonstrate | :40:27. | :40:29. | |
publicly their tax liabilities and they should wear it as a badge of | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
pride? I think there is cross-party support for more transparency. Given | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
Google, H MRC and the Chancellor publicised the outcome, surely they | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
should be open about how they arrived at 130 million. We need to | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
know the benchmark it sets for other companies as well. Government makes | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
the rules. H MRC enforces. If I worked for Google and advise them, I | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
would say volunteer to give the information because it is not doing | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
your company any goods will stop -- good. It is important to restore | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
confidence of UK-based businesses that have lower revenues but pay | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
more tax, including 20% corporation tax. We cannot content ourselves | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
with companies appearing to decide whether or not to pay tax, as if it | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
is discretionary. If the broader shoulders bare their share of the | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
burden, I am afraid the government has is to raise its game. We will | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
support the government. Our motion may not receive a majority but the | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
problem will not go away. I look forward to next week when as a | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
member of the Public Accounts Committee I will hear from Google | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
and H MRC. In preparing for the debate I was keen to see facts about | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
the government's record and turn to a study published by the Oxford | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
centre for business taxation, probably the most academically | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
reputable institution in the area of corporation tax. The report | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
published last year identifies 42 separate measures the government has | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
taken since 2010 to clamp down on corporation tax avoidance. Which are | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
forecast to raise 34 billion. I welcome the measures the financial | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
Secretary and colleagues have taken, which include to be diverted profits | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
tax and anti-abuse rules. They have increased corporation tax is, a | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
loophole that was exploited by some hedge funds is. The government | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
record in this area I think is one that bears scrutiny and indeed | :42:56. | :42:57. | |
Richard Murphy who describes himself as the father of Corbynomics 's | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
declared himself pleased and surprised at the progress made since | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
2010, which includes the initiative the UK Government has been strongly | :43:09. | :43:15. | |
pushing. I noted the Shadow Chancellor did not repeat a claim he | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
has made in the past about ?93 billion of what he called corporate | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
welfare, implying there is some evasion or avoidance going on. | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
Richard Murphy yesterday said he would question whether that figure | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
was correct for the reason it includes capital allowances, | :43:36. | :43:37. | |
research and development, tax credits, that support companies that | :43:38. | :43:46. | |
invest in productivity. On Google, I said that this government has | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
collected 130 million in tax, more than the last Labour government that | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
collective zero, and such as a welcome step. Two members who have | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
mentioned the 3% rate, I think some honourable friends have pointed out | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
such analysis ignores the fact Google's staff headcount and | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
intellectual property reside disproportionately in the US and | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
were we to adopt that approach, UK companies, particularly in music and | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
pharmacy industries, would suffer greatly. That is not to say there is | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
not more that can be done. I would suggest we look carefully at the way | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
transfer pricing rules are applied. There was a case where Starbucks | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
Levy at a 6% brand feed from an offshore jurisdiction into the UK | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
that almost extinguished their you -- their UK profits. I would ask the | :44:47. | :44:53. | |
financial Secretary to give guidance to H MRC on that topic but I support | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
the government initiatives and hope they go further. I am grateful for | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
the opportunity to speak in this debate. I want to say someone who | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
represents a constituency with thousands of which feed into the | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
supply chain, I am proud of the role my constituency and country plays in | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
leading industries. I want this country to be a place to set up | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
business. This is about fairness and transparency. To follow one | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
immediately from the speech, the fact the minister could not tell us | :45:36. | :45:42. | |
what the effective tax rate Google will be paying. I can tell him for | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
businesses in my constituency, what rate of corporation tax they will | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
pay, how difficult is it for Google to be clear and transparent about | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
the rate they are paying? The statutory rate of 20% applies to | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
everybody. There are businesses that have a lower effective rate, | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
entirely legally, in accordance with the spirit of the law because for | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
example they make use of capital allowances, they might have losses | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
they make use of. Someone having a rate below the statutory rate does | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
not mean they are conducting avoidance. Many tax experts | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
estimated Google pay an effective tax rate of 3% and if that is not | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
the case we need to see the numbers that give us that assurance. We do | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
not doubt the difficulties in a globalised world where intellectual | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
property and the growth of internet companies makes this more important | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
in the debate about tax. They are difficult issues to grasp. There is | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
no hint of fairness or transparency about this deal and that is what we | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
seek with this debate. I think we would have more confidence with | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
consistent messaging from Google and the government. In January, the | :47:01. | :47:08. | |
Treasury Twitter accounts, it claims the Google tax bill for the years | :47:09. | :47:17. | |
2005-11, almost all under Labour, and yet the accounts period to 2015 | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
reported a liability of 130 million in respect of additional taxes, due | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
for prior accounting periods and the current accounting period. The | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
minister said there is no sweetheart deal. How can he give that assurance | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
if he has not seen the deal? The Chancellor said it was a major | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
success, how could the Chancellor Lord this as a major success if he | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
is not close enough to the deal? If it is a success, why did the Prime | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
Minister run so far away from that claim? And why in recent weeks, the | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
financial Secretary has not once stood by the Chancellor and said | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
this deal is a major success, because he knows it is nothing of | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
the sort. He accuses us of attacking HMRC staff. HMRC have a | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
responsibility to apply tax law and go for the full rate of tax due. But | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
as pointed out, they have not always applied that and I am sure in the | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
work for the Treasury committee, the committee is doing, and the Public | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
Accounts Committee, I am sure we will find the issue at H MRC is | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
about resourcing and expertise and whether you have the people and | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
capacity to pursue not just current claims and outstanding tax, but the | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
historic backlog. What concerns me also is that Google have made rather | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
odd claims about this. On one hand we see senior executives writing to | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
newspapers about how great the deal is and how they stood by their | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
obligation, yet they make the commitment to pay more tax in the | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
future. Is it they are paying the tax liability they argue, or have | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
they somehow got away with it and plan to pay more in the future? Do | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
they see tax is a form of charity to the state and see to top up the | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
cough is more in the future? There is inconsistency in messaging from | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
government and Google. We should look at comments by the Mayor of | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
London who suggested finance directors have a duty to minimise | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
tax exposure. That cannot possibly be the case. If the Mayor of London | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
looked at the duties under the companies act, he would see they | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
have to make reference to the consequences of decisions in the | :49:47. | :49:53. | |
long-term. And of course the impact of company's operations on the | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
community and environment. There is a problem with the ethos of the | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
party opposite, and many of them see tax as a form of theft, whereas we | :50:03. | :50:12. | |
see it as civic duty. I want businesses in my constituency to pay | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
their fair share and they do. It is not unreasonable to expect a | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
multinational company to do the same and the government needs to do more | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
to make sure there is transparency for all companies in all | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
jurisdictions in which they operate. I must draw members attention to the | :50:32. | :50:43. | |
register of interests. If one I'm involved this company makes a | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
profit, it will pave the correct rate of corporation tax. This is a | :50:47. | :50:58. | |
global problem. Many years ago in the 60s, one was asked about the | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
consequences of the French Revolution. He said it was too early | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
to tell. The same issue with globalisation. These are global | :51:09. | :51:18. | |
problems. In the USA, the effective rate of corporation tax is halved in | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
the last 60 years. Apple are sat with ?120 billion of acid of sure | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
they do not want to repatriate because they will have to pay tax. | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
The opposition sound like a failed football manager turned TV pundit, | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
who lost all their games without scoring a goal, and now criticise | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
the new manager for not winning by a big enough margin. Of course, nobody | :51:43. | :51:55. | |
on this side would countenance the avoidance of tax. The thin | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
justification is this is for shareholders. Only this week James | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
Anderson, shareholder of Google, said Google should pay the effective | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
rate of corporation tax. Absolutely right. Warren Buffett has gone on | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
record that company should pay the going rate of corporation tax. We | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
need to look at where advisers stand on this. My experience in my | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
business, when these things have come across our desk and rejected, | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
they came from tax advisers. We need to make sure that the likes of Ernst | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
Young, these people are responsible for much of this | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
activity, and I do wonder whether they have government contracts, | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
public sector contracts, and whether that kind of organisation should be | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
allowed access to public contracts on the basis of those activities. | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
My honourable friend for Mid Worcestershire talks about, if we | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
were the parents of Google, what would we be saying? They talk about | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
values, but you cannot talk about integrity and not pay your fair | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
share of taxes. I do wonder whether we should be giving the companies | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
that do pay taxes greater prominence, greater recognition, do | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
some kind of kitemark for fare-paying. But we must rely on the | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
integrity of the individual companies to pay their taxes, where | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
they have built their businesses on the backs of British people. I am | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
very pleased to have the opportunity to take part in this extremely | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
important debate. Clearly, a number of things have gone wrong in what | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
has happened with Google, but I want to focus on just one particular | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
point, which is the treatment in our tax system of intellectual property. | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
I think this is an extremely important area, a growing part of | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
the economy, and we need to get it right. I'd like to draw a | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
distinction between two extremes. On the one hand, a large pharmaceutical | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
company that does a lot of our industry, employs a lot of people to | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
make a new drug. On the other hand, a company like Starbucks, which | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
registers its name in Luxembourg, which it looks very much as though | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
it is doing purely for a tax avoidance device. Obviously, there | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
is a continuum and, in the case of Google, they are somewhere in the | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
middle, because they have done some mathematics to make some algorithms | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
but they also have a brand which is extremely powerful. I think we need | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
to tighten up on this. What happened at the moment is that a name is | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
registered in a low tax domain. That separate company charges a fee to | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
this country, where the work is being done, and that wipes out the | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
entire tax treatment. That is obviously ridiculous. One thing that | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
is wrong is that the company seems to be able to make this price | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
itself. The revenue is not really auditing it and saying, is this | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
reasonable? Obviously maintaining a brand does involve costs, but small | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
costs, maybe repainting some signs, training your marketing people. Not | :55:22. | :55:35. | |
big costs, like proper RNs D. -- R A lot of the cost could be in | :55:36. | :55:42. | |
intellectual property and it isn't necessarily as cheap as a lick of | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
paint. I was trying to distinguish between real intellectual property | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
and intellectual property which is purely branding. Let's take the | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
example of the BBC, which sells television programmes. The BBC can | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
get more money for its television programmes then a small television | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
production company, partly because it is called the BBC. Even though | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
the actual costs of making the television programme will be the | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
same. The question we have to ask is whether, because of the high value | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
of the brand, they should pay less tax. And I submit to the Minister | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
that that is a fundamental mistake, because the brand is an asset. What | :56:27. | :56:34. | |
the company is getting in that situation is economic rent. Because | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
they have got a valuable asset, that is not a reason for paying less tax. | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
Indeed, it is somewhat absurd. If you invest in a piece of machinery | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
and you make a claim against your allowance, over time, the amount you | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
can claim against tax, it decreases as you move from the point at which | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
the investment has been made. In this case, in the case of the brands | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
being the asset, what is happening is that they are claiming more over | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
time as they are selling more. I think this is an area where we could | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
very usefully tighten up. If I could just say, I think perhaps this area | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
of tax would be better handled if we had a fume or economists looking at | :57:18. | :57:24. | |
the underlying economics of it and fewer accountants, who seem very | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
comfortable with where the system is but not driven by the desire that | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
the rest of us had to make sure these people pay their fair share. | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
Let me first declare that this morning I was elected as chair of | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
the PCS parliamentary group. Following the Shadow Chancellor, who | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
will be a hard act to follow, I will be referring to HMRC staff. Such is | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
the widespread scepticism and lack of public confidence that this deal | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
has transpired that there is now a new meaning in the streets of the | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
UK" to Google it". No longer does it mean logging onto a computer and | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
reaching a search engine. To Google it means something else. I'm -- when | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
members of the public grabbed their self-assessment forms, they will be | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
asking themselves, do I need to Google it? The government minister, | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
I think, had four opportunities and for tests to address that widespread | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
scepticism. It is about the messages that are sent. First, there was row | :58:35. | :58:40. | |
-- there was no real answer on what methodology was used to make the | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
calculation. More worryingly, he praised HMRC staff on the one hand | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
but didn't address the issue of why there are 120 compulsory | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
redundancies being issued to HMRC staff on the 28th of January, and no | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
explanation as to why the chief executive of HMRC has refused to | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
meet the public and commercial services trade union to try and help | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
mitigate those job losses. That is a message, I think, that will be sent | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
to companies, who will wonder why HMRC offices are closing in towns, | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
many towns in which they are the largest employer, seeing staff | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
reductions, they will wonder if the UK Government is serious about | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
dealing with tax avoidance and evasion. Would my honourable friend | :59:30. | :59:36. | |
agree with me that taxes are the price that we pay for a civilised | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
society and these multinational companies should be paying their | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
taxes willingly? I do agree with that. Usually in debates, we hear | :59:45. | :59:51. | |
government members praise the self appointed tax payers allowance. It | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
is interesting today that the taxpayers allowance -- Alliance | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
haven't been mentioned, but I agree that it is the price to pay for a | :00:00. | :00:02. | |
civilised society. There was nothing from the minister about financial | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
transactions taxes. I am a supporter of them, particularly a global one, | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
which would bring in ?250 billion to national governments. Surely the UK | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
Government could take a lead on introducing a financial transaction | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
tax? There was no mention that Madrid there was no mention in the | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
government 's remarks on the tax havens which honourable members have | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
raised, including the UK overseas territories. For example, the Cayman | :00:36. | :00:46. | |
Islands. Research by the tax Justice network rates the Cayman Islands as | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
the second most significant tax haven in the world. Of 267 banks | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
registered there, only 19 were licensed to operate domestically. | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
The rest were shovelling money from country to country. The Cayman | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
Islands is a population of 56,000 but there are 100,000 registered | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
companies. As President Obama has said, in relation to -- it is the | :01:13. | :01:24. | |
biggest tax scam on record. I believe it to be the latter. Where | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
is the action to tackle this? There was no mention from the government | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
to do that. As the tax Justice network says, the UK and its | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
dependent territories remain by far the most important part of the | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
global offshore system of tax havens and secrecy in jurisdiction. The | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
fact is that the widespread scepticism and lack of confidence | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
from the public mean that they have no confidence in the government's | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
handling of this affair and in dealing with tax avoidance and | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
evasion. That is why I will be supporting the motion today. Can I | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
first of all apologise to the Shadow Chancellor. I missed the live fast | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
-- be first 60 seconds or so of his speech. It has been suggested that | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
we are criticising BT manager for not winning by a big enough margin. | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
If it was such an important victory, why is the team manager refusing all | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
interviews, instead sending the reverse -- the reserve team | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
goalkeeper? Not to do interviews but talk about anything and everything | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
else. The government have tabled an amendment four times as long as the | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
motion. It doesn't mention Google anywhere. It doesn't mention the | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
?130 million victory anywhere. A strange victory indeed if the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
government are trying to hide it under the biggest, deepest, darkest | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
bushel they can find. It is to the shame of this government that | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
something which brings this parliament into ridicule and | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
disrepute that every time members on this side of the house from | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
opposition parties have asked for a justification of this deal, every | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
minister has answered by batting it across to the Labour benches, as if | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
it were the most expensive ping-pong ball in the history of sport. I | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
commend the Shadow Chancellor for being prepared to acknowledge that | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
the actions of the previous Labour government would stand up too much | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
scrutiny. I think the downfall we have seen for Labour started when | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
they got far too cosy with the big, anonymous multinational | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
institutions. I suspect a few people on the Labour benches today with | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
hindsight would accept that. If all the government can say to defend | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
their actions is to say that the previous government were even worse, | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
the message that sends out to the people of these islands is that both | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
governments are indefensible. A government that tries to defend the | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
indefensible by saying somebody else is more indefensible really is not | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
delivering much for the people. If we are to believe the selective | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
information Google have put out about our productive their 2300 | :04:06. | :04:15. | |
employees have been, each of us would have to deliver less than 25p | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
value added per year for each of our constituents. I doubt if any of us | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
would fancy the next election if that was all we were delivering. It | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
is not credible for a major, successful multinational business to | :04:30. | :04:31. | |
suggest it is employing so many people to deliver so little profit | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
for shareholders. This is not just about the technicalities of what is | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
very complex legislation. This is about this Parliament building HMRC | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
and Google to account and allowing the public to hold us to account, | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
because it is clear that the messages coming from the majority of | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
the people represented in this chamber that this Google deal stinks | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
and it cannot possibly be justified. It is interested that the government | :05:02. | :05:08. | |
are not even attempting to do so. The subject of tax avoidance and | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
evasion is of real relevance to my constituents in Saint Helen 's | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
south, for whom paying tax is not negotiable, unlike, it seems, for | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
large corporations such as Google. The rationale for public service | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
cuts based on the notion that we cannot afford as a country to pay | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
for public services in the way that we have done, that we cannot afford | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
to meet the basic needs of our citizens because of the debt facing | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
the country. It is important to note that this government has now been in | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
office nearly six years, during which time the Chancellor and Prime | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
Minister have been able to take action on this action -- on this | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
issue. The limited progress the government has made is welcome, but | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
the Google deal flies in the face of it. Attempted to blame the previous | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
Labour government every time their record is questioned is wearing very | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
thin, even with their own supporters. Issues of taxation and | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
who pays what are more pertinent when the political choices of the | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
Conservatives are meaning that jobs are being lost, services closed and | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
people suffering as a result. The cuts agenda that the government has | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
embarked upon over the past 69 months as it my constituents | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
extremely hard. The cumulative cuts to my local council took office at | :06:28. | :06:39. | |
up to a staggering ?168 million. ?94 million came from Knowsley's budget, | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
the highest of any council in the country, despite having some of the | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
highest levels of deprivation and suffering from the most income | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
deprivation. This has meant unavoidable savage cuts to services, | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
which are clear to everyone in my constituency. However, the detail of | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
why Google are paying only ?130 million is still shrouded in | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
secrecy. This is about a choice as to who pays what. Currently, the | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
government have made it very clear who has no option to pay and for | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
whom it is negotiable. Local government is meant to self finance. | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
It is meant to generate more business, activity to get tax. Who | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
is paying while Google are not? Many small businesses in my constituency | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
pay their tax. They have no choice. The nature of the business means | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
that they cannot physically moved premises, like small businesses. | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
They have no option but to relocate their profits... If the Chancellor | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
wishes for local authorities to generate more of their own finances | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
for themselves and rely less on central government, how can he | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
justify that businesses which make a large contribution to local | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
economies and pay their taxes locally are effectively subsidising | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
multinationals? May I start by thanking all the | :08:07. | :08:18. | |
honourable and right honourable members who have made excellent | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
contributions today, including the right honourable member for Barking | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
who said the government have lost the argument on transparency, but | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
other members who raised important issues about how we now seem to have | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
one tax rules for large multinationals and another for small | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
businesses. The use of tax havens, the issue of transfer pricing, also | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
the issue about how the Tories cannot claim that they have | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
continued the progress of labour on this issue. I would like to pay | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
tribute to the work of those who have campaigned for tax Justice, | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
including Richard Murphy, Christian Aid and others, and the co-operative | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
movement to their campaign for a fair tax mark. The Google tax | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
settlement issue has shocked us all. The Chancellor cut a lonely figure | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
when he tweeted the tax deal was a victory. The tweet had scarcely had | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
a chance for a re-tweet before Downing Street distanced itself, and | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
MPs on all sides called the deal derisory. Questions came about how | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
we could have reached a settlement that implied a 3% effective tax | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
rate. It was the moment as modern journalist wrote, that Google lost | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
the argument in a court of public opinion. There is a not to admire | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
about Google. Millions rely on access to information that the | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
Google search engine puts at our fingertips. Innovative products | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
pushing at the frontier of the digital age have transformed our | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
lives. What we cannot tolerate is that this global business is not | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
playing fair when it comes to tax. We know for a fact that Google has | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
been short-changing us for more than a decade. Whatever else it has done, | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
this settlement proves that facts. And now the deal has left a series | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
of questions in its wake. First, do we know if Google is paying their | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
fair share as they tell us? We don't know because the deal is shrouded in | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
secrecy. There is a lot to suggest they are not. Just this week we | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
heard its parent company Alphabet is the world's most valuable company | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
with a valuation of $568 billion. In four years Google paid their | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
chairman a total of ?166 million, more than Google paid in UK taxes | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
for ten years. We support success, but this is an issue of fairness. | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Many are now asking a second question. After his tweet, can we | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
trust the judgment of the Chancellor on this issue? Can we trust the | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
judgment of a man who describes a 3% effective tax rate for the world's | :11:20. | :11:27. | |
most valuable company as a victory? In 2014 alone, Google UK made an | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
estimated ?1 billion profit. 20% tax on this would have been ?200 | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
million. Enough for 4000 police officers. Fairness in the tax system | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
is in Houghton for us all. This is not a victim three zone. When global | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
companies like Google do not pay their fair share, businesses and | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
families in the UK take a hit. All of us will have heard from | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
businesses in our constituencies. Wondering why there is one rule for | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
multinationals and one rule for them. British families lose out. | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
Uncollected taxes mean revenue is foregone, with bigger cuts to public | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
services, lower levels of investment at a time when we needed the most. | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
There is another reason for questioning the Chancellor's | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
judgment. How can people trust the judgment of a man who thinks it is | :12:24. | :12:32. | |
right to undermine -- and tomorrow lies his tax collecting agency? Why | :12:33. | :12:41. | |
has this inquiry setup under the Labour government back in 2009 taken | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
over six years? Nobody knows, seemingly not even the Chancellor. | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
If ever there was a lack of political will, this is it. | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
People'strust in the Chancellor and the tax system has been undermined | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
further by two reports. The Chancellor, and different Tory | :13:08. | :13:09. | |
ministers, had talks with Google bosses over the last two years, but | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
did any raise the issue of tax structures with them? May be the | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
minister can let us know today. There is a growing sense of huge | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
injustice, that people feel when large multinationals are able to | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
shift profits so easily and avoid taxes they should pay. And now we | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
find out that last year, Tory MEPs were instructed on six occasions, | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
six different occasions, to vote against proposals that would clamp | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
down on multinationals that engage in aggressive tax avoidance, and in | :13:49. | :13:50. | |
addition they have voted repeatedly against measures to tackle tax | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
evasion. The Chancellor even failed to apply his Google tax to Google. | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
Perhaps he can answer the question as to whether the diverted profits | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
tax would have applied if a deal had not been beach? Things need to | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
change and we believe the Chancellor has a duty to take steps to restore | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
public confidence in how H Emwazi operating cases like this -- HMRC. | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
He must address concerns about the lack of transparency surrounding the | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
deal, show how it was reached though it can be scrutinised by Parliament | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
and the public. You can understand how HMRC accepted Google UK's claim | :14:34. | :14:42. | |
that they are a company with 2000 UK employees do not have a permanent | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
establishment in the country for corporation tax purposes. Since last | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
week, we have seen this deal unravelled. Every step of the way it | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
has shown the Chancellor's failure of judgment. It is not the first | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
time we see the Chancellor failing to stand up for people in Britain. | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
He is hurting and not helping British businesses and families. We | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
need a renewed focus, and action on tax avoidance and evasion will stop | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
and a real plan now to close the UK tax gap. It is what Britain deserves | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
and what the British people expect, a plan that puts transparency and | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
fairness first. A plan that works to see us reach international agreement | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
on country by country reporting and drive forward its implementation. | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
This deal and how it came about cannot be allowed to be a precedent. | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
If the Chancellor will not act, labour stands ready and I urge all | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
in this House to vote with us in the lobby today. ?153 billion is the | :15:49. | :15:59. | |
size of the budget deficit inherited from the party opposite, equivalent | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
to almost ?6,000 for every household in the country. When you inherited | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
deficit like that, one of the first things you go after is the money | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
supposed to be coming in that isn't. As my honourable friend set out at | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
the start of the debate, no government has done more than this | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
one to crack down on tax evasion and tax avoidance. This crackdown led by | :16:22. | :16:31. | |
my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and Chancellor has meant | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
over 40 changes to tax law, closing loopholes that Labour left in place, | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
among them the diverted profits tax to stop multinationals who shift UK | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
profits to other countries, this policy will bring an extra ?1.3 | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
billion by the end of the Parliament. Some directly and more | :16:46. | :16:53. | |
importantly, due to its deterrent behavioural impact. I believe this | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
is a record the government can be proud of, but more needs to be done | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
and we are doing it. Tax avoidance is a global problem that calls for | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
global solutions. Corporation tax is not a tax on sales that happen in | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
this country, nor even a tax on profits derived from sales in this | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
country. The system that operates internationally is that profits | :17:19. | :17:20. | |
should be allocated based on the economic activity in each country. | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
Economic activity is not just about sales, it is about RND, where the | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
various production takes place in so one. This was a simple formula to | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
work out in the 1920s when the world tax system came into being, as the | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
honourable gentleman reminded us in his entertaining style. Since then | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
there has been a move from manufacturers to services, from the | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
tangible to intangible, from the mechanical and edible to the | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
digital. The government has embarked on a programme to tighten the rules. | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
We have acted to prevent companies taking advantage of ambiguities and | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
internationally we are working to plug gaps and address loopholes. The | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
Institute for Fiscal Studies said there is literally nothing anyone | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
national government can do unilaterally about those loopholes. | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
That is why we work with international partners. We lead the | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
debate on updating the international tax rules by initiating the G20 OECD | :18:27. | :18:34. | |
base erosion and profit shifting project under our G8 presidency. We | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
were the first country to take action to implement that | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
recommendation to help us better align the location of taxable | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
profits with the location of economic activity. As part of the | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
implementation, the UK signed an agreement with 30 tax | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
administrations to share country by country reports from next year. Now | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
we want agreement so information can be made public, as spelt out in the | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
manifesto, and we will continue to lead multinational unilateral | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
debates in this area. We know that to drive productivity, carry on | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
creating jobs, we need competitive taxes. We are clear those taxes must | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
be paid. In 2009-10, the tax gap, the difference between tax | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
liabilities and tax collected, was 7.3% on last year it fell to 6.4%. | :19:31. | :19:37. | |
In the last parliament HMRC secured more than ?100 billion in compliance | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
revenues. At the spending review, the Chancellor approved an | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
additional ?800 million of funding for HMRC to recover an additional | :19:47. | :19:57. | |
7.2 billion. HMRC investigates tax impartially. No organisation gets | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
preferential treatment because of their size or income. Let me remind | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
honourable members, including the member for Barking, that during the | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
tenure government of the Labour Party, this House of Commons rear -- | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
reaffirmed a principle of confidentiality through the act in | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
2005, the principle of taxpayer confidentiality that means that HMRC | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
cannot publish details of a settlement. Confidentiality is a | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
fundamental principle of every major economy's tax system. There is no | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
ministerial involvement. The honourable member asked how you can | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
know there is no sweetheart deal. HMRC publishes litigation and its | :20:45. | :20:53. | |
strategy online which means it cannot settle for anything less than | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
full tax, interest and penalties payable. My time is short but I want | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
to respond to a couple of points made. The honourable member for | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
Glasgow South West, we had a debate on the HMRC office estates. The plan | :21:07. | :21:15. | |
is to concentrate expertise into regional centres that makes | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
interaction between the areas of expertise straightforward. It | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
improves career opportunities for many. Large business staff numbers | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
are not going down, they are going up in line with the increasing | :21:29. | :21:38. | |
investment. To the member for Wythenshawe, I think it is right we | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
give extra support to countries that need it and in 2015 - 16, a tax team | :21:43. | :21:50. | |
was established to support a number of countries. We have had excellent | :21:51. | :22:05. | |
speeches from among others Norwich, Spelthorne, and we were reminded of | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
the last Governor's record. I feared their current plans are worse. They | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
claim they want to make businesses pay more tax in the UK but their | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
policies would drive companies away from this country. We have learned | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
they do not just want to put up taxes on business but increased | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
taxes on working people also. To achieve long-term growth we need | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
competitive taxes but our message is clear, if you operate in the UK, you | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
pay tax in the UK and whoever you are the same UK law applies. We will | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
continue to strengthen the door, close loopholes and investing HMRC | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
capacity through extra funding and powers and we will lead the world in | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
the fight against international tax avoidance, to ensure the UK is | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
internationally competitive, but has a fair tax regime. I urge members to | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
support the amendment and reject this motion. | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
The question is that the original word spent part of the question. As | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
many rows of that opinion, say iron. Of the country, no macro. | :23:15. | :24:07. | |
The question is that the original words stand part of the question. | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
Tellers for the ayes, Vicky subscript and sue Heymann. Tellers | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
will be nose, Jackie Price and Simon Kirby. | :24:19. | :31:26. | |
The ayes to the right, 271. The noes to the left, 299. | :31:27. | :35:57. | |
The ayes to be right, 271. The noes to the left, 299. The noes have it. | :35:58. | :36:12. | |
Unlock. The question is that the proposed words be there added. As | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
many are of that opinion, say aye. To the contrary, no. Division. Clear | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
the lobby. And the question is the proposed | :36:21. | :38:32. | |
words be added. Say aye, of the country no. -- of the contrary. | :38:33. | :44:23. | |
The ayes to the right, 303. The noes to the left, 261. The ayes to the | :44:24. | :47:58. | |
right, 303. The noes to the left, 261. The ayes habit, the ayes have | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
it. I declare the question as amended to be agreed -- have it. We | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
now come to the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition on | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
public finances in Scotland. I informed the house that the Speaker | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
has selected the amendment in the name of the leader of the Scottish | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
National Party, and before I call the shadow minister to move, may I | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
remind the house there are a lot of speakers and very little time. There | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
will be a three-minute limit on backbenchers in the main debate. We | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
may not be able to get everybody in. With that in mind, if the | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
frontbenchers could make their contributions like the points, the | :48:42. | :48:42. | |
house would be very grateful. I am sorry you do not want an | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
oratorical flourish. It is a pleasure to open today's | :48:50. | :49:13. | |
opposition day debate for the opposition and at its core it is a | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
debate about the transfer of new powers to Scotland under the | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
Scotland Bill Burt completed its passage last November and is in the | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
other place. It is worth reflecting on the Scotland Bill, to put the | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
debate about the finances in context. It has its genesis in the | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
Smith Commission, the recommendations agreed by all major | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
Scottish parties and went past it will transform the Scottish | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
Parliament to one of the most powerful devolved parliaments. It | :49:47. | :49:55. | |
will have control of attack, which generated ?11 billion in revenues. | :49:56. | :50:02. | |
It will have the power to vary, decrease or increase those revenues. | :50:03. | :50:12. | |
The Scottish Parliament controls 10p in the pound. Kezia Dugdale | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
announced yesterday that faced with a choice of using the powers of the | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
Scottish Parliament, we have chosen to use these powers, setting at 11p | :50:25. | :50:34. | |
rather than 10p, to invest in that future for Scotland and indeed to | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
protect the low-paid. The revenue raising powers are accompanied by | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
new spending powers such as control over ?2.5 billion of welfare. The | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
Scottish Parliament will top up -- be able to top up existing UK | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
benefits. Thanks to amendments it would have total autonomy to create | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
new benefits in devolved areas. When enacted the Scottish Parliament will | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
be able to make different choices to create a better Scotland. I am happy | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
to give way. Could he tell the House who in his party speaks for England | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
to make sure the settlement would be fair to England as well as Scotland? | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
The settlement house to be fair to England as well as the rest of the | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
United Kingdom, including England. I will come onto that later. We hear | :51:25. | :51:33. | |
of cheers in the Scottish Parliament as the Finance Minister tried to | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
justify expenditure cuts in public expenditure, cuts backed by the | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
Tories. Is this final proof the socialist credentials the SNP try to | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
claim have no foundation? I am grateful to my honourable friend for | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
that intervention. What we have seen in Scotland is a Scottish Labour | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
Party determine to use the current powers of the Scottish Parliament to | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
do something different from conservative austerity and the | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
result is a Scottish Finance Minister and Scottish Government | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
just managing that conservative austerity. When left with a choice | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
of either managing the Tory austerities or creating a different | :52:14. | :52:15. | |
future of the Scotland we have chosen to create that different | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
future. I was just explaining the principles behind the Scotland Bill, | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
but before it can be enacted, they must be underpinned by a new fiscal | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
framework, and this is running alongside the legislative process of | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
the Bill which is different from what happened in 2012 with the | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
Scotland Act. The Smith Commission stipulated the Barnett formula would | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
be retained as a mechanism for determining the block grant. That is | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
not in question in this debate. The block grant will need to be adjusted | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
to reflect new tax-raising powers and expenditure responsibilities | :52:57. | :52:58. | |
being devolved and that is the heart of the debate today. | :52:59. | :53:12. | |
Subtitles will resume on 'Wednesday In Parliament' at 2300. | :53:13. | :53:20. |