10/02/2016 House of Commons


10/02/2016

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I hope the House will join me in mum coming to the Sergeant 's chair the

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new Sergeant on the occasion of his first Prime Minister's Questions. An

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exceptional day and an exceptional response. Secondly, I hope the House

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might wish to join me and congratulations very warmly Kim

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Sears and Andy Murray on the birth of their baby daughter. Order,

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order. Motion on the Committee of Selection. The question is as on the

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order paper. Questions to the Secretary of State

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for Scotland. We don't take points of order now. Later. Points of order

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come after questions and statements. We start with questions. I am sure

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everyone, particularly in Scotland, will share your warm wishes to Andy

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Murray and Kim Sears on the birth of their daughter. Latest official

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statistics published last month showed that in 2014, around 42% of

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all Scottish international exports were destined for countries within

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the European Union, the values of these were estimated at around ?11.6

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billion. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that the package the

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Prime Minister will be discussing in more detail with his colleagues on

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the European Council will bring about much-needed reform and

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actually be a catalyst for more performing the future making it

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quite clear the single market is good for the UK and good for

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Scotland. In a reformed EU, we could have the best of both worlds. Access

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to the single market while not being a member of the euro or Schengen.

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And I believe that would be good for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

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Single European market and the ability to impact the legislation

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that governs it is hugely important to the Scottish economy, especially

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the exporting sectors such as whiskey. All the Secretary of State

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confirm that regardless of the ongoing biggest nations, he will

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personally campaign for Scotland and the UK to remain within the EU. The

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honourable gentleman will know, and I'm sure will be pleased to have

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heard that the leader of the Scottish Conservative and Unionist

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party has expressed exactly that position. I get a second bite at the

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cherry. Perhaps at the end of the question, he can answer whether he

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will support Scotland and the UK remaining in the EU? Making a

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positive case for remaining in the EU will be crucial in the weeks and

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months ahead so will the Secretary of State give a commitment not to

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repeat the grinding negativity, and repeat ridiculous scare stories such

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as those from the Prime Minister about refugees and the immigrant

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camp in Calais. I will make my position known when the negotiations

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have been concluded. I make this offer to the honourable gentleman,

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if the reform package goes ahead and if I am campaigning to keep Scotland

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in the United Kingdom, I would be delighted to join him, and the First

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Minister, on a platform to make that case. I had the pleasure last night

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of meeting with the Scotch Whisky Association who introduced me to

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some of the finer products from across the border. Would the

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Minister ... Expansion into new markets which have nothing to do

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with the EU is the growth area for the whiskey industry. There arch and

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as opportunities for the development of the Scotch whiskey industry and

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it is an issue on which I think both the Scottish Government, UK

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Government, all parties in this House are united. We recently, when

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the president of China what here in the UK, had the opportunity to

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present the President's wife with her favourite bottle of malt whiskey

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from Scotland and both the president and his good lady wife were able to

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set out how important that product is to developing markets in China. I

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wonder if the Secretary of State could tell me what discussions he

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has had with Scottish businesses about the possibility of the UK exit

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from the EU and what concerns they have raised about the impact this

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would have on their ability to access and export to single markets?

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The clearest message I get from businesses in Scotland is that they

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want a short EU referendum campaign so that we have the minimum amount

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of uncertainty. Question number two. I have regular discussions with the

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Deputy First Minister to discuss the Frisco framework, the joint ticks

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decker committee met on Monday and these are on going. The First

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Minister route to the Prime Minister and set out areas where agreements

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needs to be reached. He listed those as capital and revenue borrowing,

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fiscal oversight and dispute resolution. Can the Secretary of

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State confirm these are all the outstanding issues where agreements

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needs to be reached? Then nature of the discussions is that it was

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agreed at the start until everything is agreed, nothing is agreed.

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Considerable progress has been made on all of those issues. I'd very

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much welcome what the First Minister says in that letter, that the

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finance secretary is going to bring forward revised proposals from the

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Scottish Government. That is what a negotiation involves, it involves

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both parties bringing forward revised proposals as the negotiation

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progresses and that is exactly what the UK Government is committed to

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doing. The starting point of the fiscal framework discussions is the

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Barnett Formula which means that Scotland has 15% extra public

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spending per capita than the UK as an average. Could the Secretary of

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State informed the House whether he believes that differential will

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maintain in perpetuity? The honourable gentleman's views on the

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Barnett Formula are well-known. I don't agree with them, nor does the

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government. The government's position is that the Barnett Formula

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will remain, even in the fiscal framework environment. The

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negotiations about the fiscal framework are a very sensitive and

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fragile state. We have to be careful about the language that is used. The

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Secretary of State was using in which like Luke is ludicrous -- I

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would like ludicrous. It is profoundly unhelpful. If he has

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nothing to offer these negotiations and discussions, will he offer to

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stay out of it? I find it ought to take a lecture from that particular

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honourable gentleman on moderate language. But I don't think anybody

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can doubt my commitment to ensuring that we have a negotiated fiscal

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framework. I am delighted that the First Minister in her letter to the

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Prime Minister set out her strong commitment to achieve that

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agreement. That is the Prime Minister's position. As I said, both

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sides have done the dance, let's do the deal. With my right honourable

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friend agree that if we are to have a successful devolution agreement

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that we all want, it does need a firm and sensible framework, fiscal

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discipline, so it will last and stand the test of will be on no

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economic issues that may hit the country. Can he assure us that we

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won't repeat the mistakes of Spain where devolved provinces run up

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unsustainable debts which they would then blame on Madrid and cause

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difficulty for the Spanish government seeking recovery? Has my

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honourable friend will recognise, the settlement within Spain is quite

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different. I do agree with him on the need for the sustainability of

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the fiscal framework. What the government has made quite clear in

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terms of the negotiations, is our willingness to see the arrangements,

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reviewed within a few years to make sure that they do stand up to the

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scrutiny of being fed to Scotland and fair to the rest of the UK. I'd

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like to join you in congratulating Andy Murray and Kim Sears on the

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birth of their baby daughter. Actually, their baby daughter may be

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winning Wimbledon by the time we get a deal on the fiscal framework. The

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UK and Scottish governments have been negotiating for over six

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months. Longer than it took to negotiate the Scotland Bill itself,

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to strike the historic international climate change agreement and longer

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it took the G20 leaders to agree on the global economy. Can the

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Secretary of State tell the House why he thinks the per capita index

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model isn't the appropriate for the block grant?

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I have made it clear that we're not going to have the detailed

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negotiation in relation to this matter on the floor of this House.

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What I said earlier was I very much welcome the fact that the First

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Minister has indicated that the Scottish Government is going to

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bring forward a revised proposal, through the negotiations we have

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brought forward proposals, and I believe we are in touching distance

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of striking a deal and me not to miss the people do so. The Secretary

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of State says he will not provide a running commentary on the fiscal

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framework, while both governments are providing that very common to

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the. A respected economist has said, I do not understand why it should be

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such a huge stumbling lock, and a constitutional expert has said, the

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fiscal framework is a solvable problem. The Prime Minister has

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spent months going around Europe, trying to strike a deal on EU law,

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and is it not in time -- about time he gets involved in the Sun spends

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as much time on this? The Prime Minister is committed to securing a

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deal. He has spoken to Nicola Sturgeon on this issue. They have

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had a productive discussion and exchange of letters, but both of

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them are clear that they want to get a deal, and I am confident that with

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the position set out in the letter from the First Minister, the

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Scottish Government are actively engaging in that process, as are we,

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and we will be able to get that deal. On the 28th of January, the

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Prime Minister held discussions with industry representatives in Aberdeen

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on further support for the North Sea. As a member of the group on oil

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and gas, I also meet with key stakeholders on a regular basis.

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Calor gas has its largest operational UK site in my

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constituency. A number of residents in the Scottish Highlands and other

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rural areas rely on Calor gas, who received a large part of the

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Scottish gas supplies from the North Sea. Does my right honourable friend

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agree that as a result of the support UK Government is able to

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provide, we are in a much better place to absorb the following oil

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prices had been the case if Scotland had been an independent country? I

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do acknowledge the importance of Calor gas and those who supply of

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the network energy. They are very important in rural Scotland. But on

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his wider point, yes, he makes an important point about the ability of

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the United Kingdom as a whole to absorb the changing oil price. What

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discussions has the Secretary of State had with the Chancellor about

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continued funding for seismic surveys on the UK continental shelf?

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I am sure she welcomed the Prime Minister's announcement when he was

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in Aberdeen of a ?20 million contribution for a second round of

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new seismic surveys. The severity of the collapse in global oil prices

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carries with it the danger that a number of fields in the North Sea

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will suspend production and then perhaps never presume it. Given that

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this would represent a serious loss of national assets and

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infrastructure, may I invite the Secretary of State for Scotland to

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have further discussions with the Chancellor in advance of the budget

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to try to make sure that these fields are not lost for ever, but

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remain an important part of our national economy? It will not

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surprise him to know that that very issue was part of the discussion

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with the Prime Minister, Fergus Ewing from the Scottish Government,

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and representatives from the oil and gas industry in Aberdeen. The Prime

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Minister made it very clear that he will look at specific requests are

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proposals in relation to supporting the industry in the forthcoming

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budget. With your permission I will take question four and nine

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together. On behalf of the Secretary of State for work and Pensions

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Committee with the Secretary of State for Scotland regularly to

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discuss devolution of welfare programmes to the Scottish

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Government, including a meeting yesterday where we discussed the

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ever improving labour market in Scotland. I also have regular

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meetings with my counterparts in the Scottish Government and we have a

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joint ministerial working group. I will be speaking to model to the

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Cabinet Secretary for the work and children and jump people in

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Scotland. -- young people. In the Autumn Statement, funding was cut by

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87% so the Scottish Government now has only ?7 million to deliver

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services. Notwithstanding the acceptance that this was a

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politically motivated decision, what does he say to my constituents in

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one of the highest areas of deprivation in the United Kingdom,

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who are, after all, the people this is going to impact most of all? I

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would start by hoping that she will welcome the fact that in her

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constituency employment kind has increased by 49% since 2010. We have

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record levels of employment in Scotland. When it comes to

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employment programmes, there will be greater devolution for the Scottish

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Government in welfare, and when it comes to employment programmes we

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would be happy to have discussions with the Scottish Government in

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particular. Many of which will look at how we take employment programmes

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further to support those out of work in Scotland who want to work. Due to

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the changes from DLA to PIP, thousands of Scots are losing their

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right to motor bill the vehicles. This is devastating in rural areas

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where accessible public transport may be limited. Will this iniquitous

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policy be ended? There will be new powers under the devolution deal

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which will include top up payments which are still very much based on

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welfare payments as well. It will be down to the Scottish Government to

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start making these decisions. You have power is coming to you, you

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have to start deciding how to use them. It was thanks to Labour peers

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in the other place that an additional cack-handed approach to

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tax credits were brought to an end. We know now that the government

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wants to introduce changes which will leave 800,000 people on tax

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credits worse off in April. How many people in Scotland will be affected?

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As I previously said, when the House has discussed issues of welfare

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changes, we have the bill going through the other place right now,

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but the changes we are making are there to bring fairness and

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stability to the welfare bill in this country. At the same time,

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despite the figures that the honourable gentleman and the party

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opposite mention constantly, it The employment rate in Scotland has

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never been higher, and our support will build on this, recognising that

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changes to the labour market -- gives value for money to the

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taxpayer. We have many examples of businesses commercial operations

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north of the border helps to sustain jobs locally, such as engineering

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and transport companies. Does the Minister agree that Scotland creates

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a great deal of employment across the whole of the United Kingdom? She

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is right to say with record levels of poignant in Scotland, her

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constituency has benefited from the crossover of employment

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opportunities in her constituency and in Scotland. With our growing

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economy, that will continue to grow. Scotland's youth and point is fact

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its highest level since 2005. 7% higher than the rest of UK. Can the

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Secretary of State reassure me that recommendations will be made to make

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sure Scotland receives a fair level of funding for apprenticeships? I

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would say to him, I did not fully hear his question, but I will take

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that away and I understand the department will look at that. It is

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a serious situation of ministers cannot hear the questions. It is a

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discourtesy to the people of Scotland when we are discussing

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these matters if questions cannot be heard. Let us have some order. I

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have had discussions with the Department for Transport and others

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to ensure that the closure of the lamington viaduct in my constituency

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is addressed as quickly as possible. We are committed to working together

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with parties to reopen the west Coast mainline in the first week of

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March. Apologies for my lack of voice. The closure of the West Coast

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mainline has a huge impact not only on the economy of southern Scotland,

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but of Cumbria as well. It is a strategic crossing that many

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constituents rely on. The Secretary of State says it will be open on the

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first week of March. And he confirmed that the entirety will be

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open by then? -- can he confirmed? I welcome her comments because she

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will be aware that my own constituents who use Lockerbie

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station at the people who are most affected by these changes. But we

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are determined to get the West Coast mainline fully reopened in that

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first week in March. The Prime Minister claims that he is going to

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get a good deal for Britain in the European Union. With the Secretary

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of State like to see the United Kingdom play the same role and at

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the same level of powers in the EU that Scotland currently has, he

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claims, in the UK? Related to the West Coast Main line, I of the

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Secretary of State will give us an answer. The West Coast mainline is

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one of the most important routes within the United Kingdom to Europe

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via London. I have set out my position in relation to the EU

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referendum. I think it is important that if the SNP genuinely wants

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Scotland to remain in the EU than concentrate on process issues, they

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get out and campaign for it. Mr Speaker, I do not know of the

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honourable gentleman has had the opportunity to read my speech of

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21st of December, where I set out that I fully support devolution of

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power from Holyrood to local communities, as Lord Smith

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recommended in his commission agreement. This is the

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responsibility of the Scottish Parliament to implement, but I

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encourage them to do so. Will the Secretary of State condemned those

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who use devolution to actually centralise power in Holyrood,

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whether that is the centralisation of the police, Fire Service, health

:23:42.:23:49.

spending, local government spending, courts, colleges or enterprise

:23:50.:23:55.

companies, will he ensure that he stands together who feel devolution

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does not stop at Holyrood but goes down to Scottish local authorities

:23:59.:24:03.

and to the Scottish people? I agree with what he says and I can tell him

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the best way to achieve it. Under Ruth Davidson to elect more Scottish

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Conservative MSPs to the Scottish Parliament. In the interest of the

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record, can the Secretary of State confirm that under the powers that

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are being devolved as part of the current Scotland Bill, the Scottish

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Government will be able to change rates of income tax... Order. I

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apologise to the honourable gentleman. The Secretary of State

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could not hear the question because of a rude eruption of noise. Perhaps

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he could ask his question again and members could have the common

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courtesy to allow him to be heard. We are getting used to this. In the

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interests of the record, can the Secretary of State confirm that

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under the paint -- powers that are currently being devolved as part of

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the Scotland Bill, the Scottish Government will be able to change

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rates and bands of the Scottish rate of income tax, allowing them to make

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progress of choices on these additional powers, and that Labour

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have made plans to raise Scottish income tax that everyone before

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these powers are transferred... We have got the gist. Embers need to

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learn the merits of the blue pencil. If they use the blue pencil and

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questions were shorter, they would benefit. We will take on -- Scotland

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will take on these tax powers as they see fit. I hope they use them

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to make Scotland a more attractive place for business and commerce,

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grow the economy and the Scottish population. My right honourable

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friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has had a number of

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discussions with ordinations includes the -- including the

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Scottish Whisky Association and Oil and Gas UK. It is because of its

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commitment to our long-term economic ban and prosperity that we have seen

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such a growth in the Scottish economy. Thank goodness the good

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people of Scotland voted to stay within the United Kingdom and reject

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independence. Research shows that Scottish Opera workers could lose

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?1300 annually as stores increasingly abandon their Sunday

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pay rates in light of Sandy trading regulations. Would he take these up

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with the secretary? -- Scottish shop workers. What we intend to do is

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devolved powers to local authorities they make the decisions as to what

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is in the best interests of people locally, including local people who

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may want to shop on a Sunday, and the interest of nurses who may want

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to open more liberally on a Sunday to take full advantage. These are

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good ideas, and I hope she might consider supporting it. Questions to

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the Prime Minister. I know the House has been saddened

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by the death of Harry Harper, after a great career, an adviser to David

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Blunkett, he was returned to this place last May, succeeding David

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Blunkett himself. He was in this place a short time and became a

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popular MP, recognised for his commitment to his constituents and

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his beliefs. He continued to carry out his work, as an MP, throughout

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his treatment, we offer his wife and their five children our condolences.

:28:05.:28:10.

This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and in

:28:11.:28:13.

additional to Mike Judy 's in this House, I will have further comments

:28:14.:28:19.

to make -- in addition to my duties in this House. I would like to agree

:28:20.:28:26.

about the sad loss for the member of Sheffield and Hillsborough, he came

:28:27.:28:29.

to this House with an excellent record in local government and will

:28:30.:28:35.

be sadly missed. The whole House send our condolences to his family

:28:36.:28:39.

at this sad time. Housing is the number one issue in my constituency,

:28:40.:28:46.

queries on a workable local plan, looking after our green spaces and

:28:47.:28:50.

strongly offering the Conservative value of the right to buy, would the

:28:51.:28:57.

Prime Minister agree that the help to buy items, with one being taken

:28:58.:29:02.

out every 30 seconds, is the right way to promote savings and encourage

:29:03.:29:15.

homeownership? -- ISAs. I agree, that is why these help to buy ISAs,

:29:16.:29:24.

where we matched the money they put in, it can ready help, and so what

:29:25.:29:27.

we have seen under this government, is 40,000 people exercise their

:29:28.:29:32.

right to buy their council House, now we're extending that to all

:29:33.:29:36.

housing association tenants and we have seen 130,000 people would help

:29:37.:29:41.

to buy, getting the first flat or the first House, and there is more

:29:42.:29:44.

to do, mostly building houses, but helping people with their deposits

:29:45.:29:53.

is vital. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I joined the Prime

:29:54.:29:58.

Minister and the member for Eastleigh in paying tribute to Harry

:29:59.:30:04.

Harper, the Honourable member for Sheffield and Hillsborough, a former

:30:05.:30:07.

miner who passed away last week, just a short time ago Harry used his

:30:08.:30:10.

glass question here to ask the Prime Minister questions about the

:30:11.:30:17.

Sheffield Masters and the steel industry -- his last question. I

:30:18.:30:24.

hope the primers to reflects on his -- hope the Prime Minister reflects

:30:25.:30:28.

on his diligence regarding that part of his committee. I said to his

:30:29.:30:35.

wife, how would they like to remember Harry? She said, we have

:30:36.:30:40.

admired the bravery and carriage he showed in his life, which was formed

:30:41.:30:44.

in June the miners strike and which carried him forward for the rest of

:30:45.:30:51.

his life -- which was formed jeering the miners strike. People will

:30:52.:30:58.

remember him as a decent man, and we are very sad at his passing. Mr

:30:59.:31:04.

Speaker, also following the member for Eastleigh, I have a question on

:31:05.:31:09.

housing. I have an e-mail from Rosie, cheese in her 20s. -- she is

:31:10.:31:18.

in her 20s. CHEERING LAUGHTER

:31:19.:31:31.

Unfortunately, the Rosie who has written to me does not have the same

:31:32.:31:38.

good housing that the Chief Whip of our party does. But aspiration

:31:39.:31:49.

springs eternal. The Rosie who has written to me, cheese in 20s and she

:31:50.:31:57.

says, " -- she is in her 20s and she says, "I worked very hard at my job

:31:58.:32:01.

and I'm still having to live at home with my parents, the lack of housing

:32:02.:32:07.

options are forcing her to consider moving, she says. She asks the Prime

:32:08.:32:13.

Minister, what action it he is going to take to help young people and

:32:14.:32:17.

families suffering from on realistic healths prizes and uncapped rents to

:32:18.:32:23.

get somewhere safe and secure to live? -- House prices. When you get

:32:24.:32:30.

a letter from the Chief Whip, that normally spells trouble, I should

:32:31.:32:37.

say. What I would say to Rosie, we want to do everything we can to help

:32:38.:32:41.

young people get on the housing ladder, that is why we have these

:32:42.:32:46.

help to save ISAs and I hope she is looking at that, we are cutting

:32:47.:32:51.

taxes and she will be able to earn ?11,000 before she starts paying any

:32:52.:32:56.

taxes. If Rosie is a tenant in a housing association home, she can

:32:57.:32:59.

buy that home because we are introducing and extending the right

:33:00.:33:04.

to buy, and with help to bite she will have the opportunity to

:33:05.:33:07.

register for help to buy which gives people the chance to have a small

:33:08.:33:13.

deposit, but still a chance of owning their own home. If she wants

:33:14.:33:17.

to be a homeowner, shared ownership can make a real difference and in

:33:18.:33:21.

some parts of the country you will need a deposit of just a few

:33:22.:33:26.

thousand pounds to begin the process of becoming a homeowner, but Ira

:33:27.:33:29.

lies that building more houses, we have got to deliver for Rosie -- but

:33:30.:33:37.

building more buildings. I'm very pleased that the Prime Minister

:33:38.:33:40.

would like to help deliver decent housing, Rosie lives and works in

:33:41.:33:44.

London, as the Prime Minister knows, London is very expensive. He talks

:33:45.:33:50.

about people getting on the housing ladder, but the reality is, home

:33:51.:33:53.

ownership has fallen under his government by 200,000 and it rose by

:33:54.:33:58.

a million and the last Labour government, and his record is one of

:33:59.:34:01.

actually some years of failure on housing. He said that council homes

:34:02.:34:07.

sold on the right to buy would be replaced like the like, can be

:34:08.:34:11.

primers to tell us how that policy is panning out? -- Gandhi Prime

:34:12.:34:19.

Minister. -- can the Prime Minister. What happened under Labour, one

:34:20.:34:25.

council home was built for every hundred and seven seat council homes

:34:26.:34:30.

they sold. That is the record -- 170. We have said we will make sure

:34:31.:34:35.

that two homes are built for every council home in London, that is so,

:34:36.:34:42.

that is because the member for Richmond insisted on that in an

:34:43.:34:46.

amendment to the housing bill. These take some years to build, but the

:34:47.:34:51.

money that they will be built, the money comes back to the Treasury.

:34:52.:34:58.

The Prime Minister should be aware that just one home has been built

:34:59.:35:02.

for every eight that have been sold under his government. People are

:35:03.:35:06.

increasingly finding it very devil called find anywhere to live. The

:35:07.:35:12.

Chancellor's crude cuts in housing benefit for those in supported

:35:13.:35:17.

housing, they are putting at risk hundreds of thousands of elderly

:35:18.:35:21.

people, people with mental health condition, war veterans and women

:35:22.:35:23.

fleeing domestic violence unit support. Can the Prime Minister tell

:35:24.:35:29.

the House what estimate housing dividers have made in terms of the

:35:30.:35:33.

impact of this policy on supported housing? We are going to increase

:35:34.:35:41.

housing supply in the social sector by an ?8 billion housing budget gym

:35:42.:35:44.

this parliament which will build 400,000 affordable homes. When it

:35:45.:35:50.

comes to our reforms of housing benefit, yes, we have cut housing

:35:51.:35:54.

benefit, because it was out of control when we came to government.

:35:55.:35:57.

There were families in London who were getting ?100,000 of housing

:35:58.:36:04.

benefit per family. Think how many people, think how many Rosie's were

:36:05.:36:11.

going to work, working hard, just to provide that housing benefit for one

:36:12.:36:16.

family. We support supported housing schemes and we will look very

:36:17.:36:19.

carefully to make sure they can work well in the future, but I make no

:36:20.:36:22.

apology for the fact that in this parliament we are cutting social

:36:23.:36:29.

rents, so for Rosie, for example, living in social housing, going out

:36:30.:36:32.

to work but she will have lower rent under this government. I'm pleased

:36:33.:36:37.

the Prime Minister got onto the question of supported housing.

:36:38.:36:43.

Housing providers estimate that nearly half of all supported housing

:36:44.:36:48.

schemes will close, one in four providers are set to close all of

:36:49.:36:51.

their provision, this is a very serious crisis. I assume the Prime

:36:52.:37:00.

Minister is not content to people with mental health conditions with

:37:01.:37:02.

nowhere to live, so can he assure the House that the warm words he has

:37:03.:37:06.

given on supported housing will be matched by action and he will stop

:37:07.:37:10.

this cut which will destroy this supported housing sector? We will

:37:11.:37:15.

continue to support the supported housing sector and the report that

:37:16.:37:19.

he quotes from, it was an opinion poll with an extremely leading

:37:20.:37:23.

question, if he actually looks at what it was he was looking at. The

:37:24.:37:27.

changes that we are making, reducing social rents by 1%, every year for

:37:28.:37:32.

four years, that is good news for people who go out to work and work

:37:33.:37:36.

hard and like to pay less rent. That goes with the lower taxes they will

:37:37.:37:39.

be paying and the more childcare they will be getting, and the other

:37:40.:37:43.

change we are making which does not come into force until 2018, is to

:37:44.:37:47.

make sure that we are not paying housing benefit to social tenants

:37:48.:37:52.

way above what we would pay to private sector tenants. The simple

:37:53.:37:57.

point is this, and this is where I think Labour had got to focus, every

:37:58.:38:01.

penny you spend on housing subsidy is money you can't spend on building

:38:02.:38:06.

houses -- have got to focus. Let's take this right back to Rosie in the

:38:07.:38:10.

beginning, it she would like a country where we build homes that

:38:11.:38:12.

she would like a country where she can buy a home, she would like a

:38:13.:38:16.

country with a strong economy so you can afford to buy a home, all of

:38:17.:38:23.

those things we are delivering, but you will not deliver these if you go

:38:24.:38:29.

on subsidising housing, and the welfare benefit, one day Labour has

:38:30.:38:32.

got to realise that the welfare benefit has got to be brought under

:38:33.:38:38.

control. -- the welfare system. Shelter estimates that the measures

:38:39.:38:42.

in the housing bill will lose 180,000 affordable homes over the

:38:43.:38:46.

next four years. The Prime Minister is overseeing a very damaging

:38:47.:38:50.

housing crisis, it is prising out people from buying, it is not

:38:51.:38:54.

providing enough social housing, therefore many people are forced to

:38:55.:39:01.

rely on the private rented sector. The benches behind him recently

:39:02.:39:05.

voted against an amendment but forward by my honourable friend or

:39:06.:39:10.

homes to be fit for human habitation. -- for. Labour invested

:39:11.:39:16.

?22 billion in government, in bringing social homes at two decent

:39:17.:39:23.

homes standard, and there are now 11 million people in this country who

:39:24.:39:28.

are private renters. Does the Prime Minister know how many of those

:39:29.:39:31.

homes do not meet the decent homes standard? To listen to Labour, when

:39:32.:39:38.

in the last five years, we built for council houses than they built in 13

:39:39.:39:44.

years. -- we built more. Where was he? Where was he when that was going

:39:45.:39:50.

on? 13 years and I hope this record on housing. What we are doing is an

:39:51.:39:58.

?8 billion housing budget, that will provide 400,000 new affordable homes

:39:59.:40:00.

and a target to build a million homes during this Parliament,

:40:01.:40:04.

getting housing benefit down so we can spend money on housing and

:40:05.:40:07.

having a strong economy that can support the housing we need. Mr

:40:08.:40:15.

Speaker, I was asking through you, the Prime Minister, how many of the

:40:16.:40:19.

11 million renters are living in homes that are not going to make the

:40:20.:40:25.

decent homes standard and therefore are substandard? 1000 of those in

:40:26.:40:32.

the private rented sector do not meet that standard and shells found

:40:33.:40:36.

six out of ten renters have issues like damp, mould, leaking roofs and

:40:37.:40:41.

Windows, it is simply not good enough -- shelter found. Millions

:40:42.:40:47.

are struggling to get the homes they deserve, more families slipping into

:40:48.:40:49.

temporary accommodation, homelessness rising, too few homes

:40:50.:40:55.

being built, social housing under pressure, families forced into low

:40:56.:40:59.

standard, overpriced rented sector, young people unable to move out of

:41:00.:41:02.

the family home and start their own lives, when is the Prime Minister

:41:03.:41:05.

going to realise that there is a housing crisis in Britain, and his

:41:06.:41:09.

government needs to address it now, so that we do not continue with this

:41:10.:41:13.

dreadful situation in this country. Homelessness is less than half the

:41:14.:41:24.

peak today than it was under the last Labour government. There is a

:41:25.:41:30.

simple point here. You can only invest in new houses, you can only

:41:31.:41:35.

restore existing houses, you can any build new houses and support people

:41:36.:41:39.

into those houses if you have a strong economy. We inherited mass

:41:40.:41:45.

unemployment, and economy that completely collapsed, a banking

:41:46.:41:50.

crisis and now we've got zero inflation, wages growing,

:41:51.:41:54.

unemployment at 5%, and economy growing and people able, for the

:41:55.:41:57.

first time, to look to their future and see they can buy and own a house

:41:58.:42:00.

in our country. Mr speak your Nadia was a

:42:01.:42:18.

19-year-old when Daesh came to her village. They tortured her, raped

:42:19.:42:26.

and made her laid. Nadia's story is the same as thousands of Yazidi

:42:27.:42:31.

women except thousands are still held in captivity and Nadia escaped.

:42:32.:42:38.

In fact, Nadia is in the public gallery today. Will the Minister

:42:39.:42:42.

join me in accepting acknowledging Nadia's bravery and resilience and

:42:43.:42:48.

the qualities that allowed her to triumph over Daesh? Will he support

:42:49.:43:03.

Yazidi women? Let me thank my friend for raising this issue and welcome

:43:04.:43:08.

Nadia, who is here with us today. Her and their Yazidi community have

:43:09.:43:14.

suffered appallingly at this murderous, brutal, fascist

:43:15.:43:17.

organisation in Syria and Iraq. We must do everything we can to defeat

:43:18.:43:23.

Daesh and its ideology. We are playing a leading role in this

:43:24.:43:27.

global coalition. In terms of Iraq, where so many Yazidis suffered,

:43:28.:43:35.

Daesh have lost 40% of the territory controlled. As I said at the time in

:43:36.:43:38.

the debate about Syria, this will take a long time. Building up Iraqi

:43:39.:43:45.

security forces, working with Syrian opposition forces, building the

:43:46.:43:48.

capacity of governments in both countries to drive this organisation

:43:49.:43:51.

out of the Middle East. However long it takes, we must stick at it. Angus

:43:52.:43:58.

Robertson. We on these benches join in the condolences in relation to

:43:59.:44:07.

Harry and pass on our condolences at this sad time to his family for

:44:08.:44:11.

supper by Minister made a vow and his party signed an agreement that

:44:12.:44:16.

there would be no detriment to Scotland with new devolution

:44:17.:44:20.

arrangements. Why is the UK Treasury proposing plans that may be

:44:21.:44:23.

detrimental towards Scotland to the tune of ?3 billion? First of all, we

:44:24.:44:29.

accept this myth principles of no detriment. No detriment to Scotland

:44:30.:44:34.

at the time when this transfer is made. -- the Smith principles. And

:44:35.:44:41.

then no detriment of Scottish taxpayers, but also to the rest of

:44:42.:44:45.

the United Kingdom taxpayers, who we have to bear in mind as we take into

:44:46.:44:48.

account this very important negotiation. I have had good

:44:49.:44:52.

negotiations with the First Minister, negotiations are underway.

:44:53.:44:56.

I want us to successfully complete this very important piece of

:44:57.:45:00.

devolution in a fair and reasonable way and these negotiations should

:45:01.:45:04.

continue. Let me remind the Right Honourable gentleman, if we had had

:45:05.:45:09.

full fiscal devolution, with oil revenues having collapsed by 94%,

:45:10.:45:14.

then the right honourable Gentleman and his party would be weeks away

:45:15.:45:18.

from a financial calamity for Scotland. Thank you. In the context

:45:19.:45:27.

of referendums, whether in Scotland or across the UK on EU membership,

:45:28.:45:31.

don't voters have a right to know that what is promised by the UK

:45:32.:45:37.

Government can be trusted and will be delivered in full. Will the Prime

:45:38.:45:41.

Minister told the Treasury Time is running out on delivering of their

:45:42.:45:45.

fiscal framework and they must do a deal that is fair both to the people

:45:46.:45:49.

of Scotland, and fair to the rest of the United Kingdom. I can tell him

:45:50.:45:54.

everything that has been committed to by this government will be

:45:55.:45:58.

delivered. We committed to this huge act of devolution to Scotland and we

:45:59.:46:02.

delivered it. We committed to the Scotland Bill and are well on the

:46:03.:46:05.

way to delivering it. All the things we said we would, including those

:46:06.:46:10.

vital Smith principles. There is an ongoing negotiations to reach a fair

:46:11.:46:14.

settlement and I would say to the Scottish First Minister and Finance

:46:15.:46:17.

Minister, they have to recognise there must be fairness across the

:46:18.:46:21.

rest of the United Kingdom as well. But with goodwill, I can tell you Mr

:46:22.:46:25.

Speaker, no one is more keen on an agreement on me. I want the Scottish

:46:26.:46:30.

National party here and in Holyrood to have to start making decisions,

:46:31.:46:34.

which taxes are you going to raise, what are you going to do with

:46:35.:46:39.

benefits? I want to get rid of, frankly, this grievance agenda and

:46:40.:46:42.

let you get on with the governing agenda and then we can see what you

:46:43.:46:49.

are made of. The skills shortage in engineering

:46:50.:46:53.

in Wildschut is particularly a problem. It is threatening and

:46:54.:46:56.

undermining all the work we have done in job creation and also

:46:57.:47:01.

supporting businesses. It is quite simply a ticking time bomb. Mr

:47:02.:47:06.

Speaker, may I ask the Prime Minister, what more can he do to

:47:07.:47:11.

remove the stigma, misunderstanding and all the problems associated

:47:12.:47:16.

around Stem subjects and careers? I think my honourable friend is right

:47:17.:47:21.

to raise this. There are special circumstances in Wiltshire because

:47:22.:47:23.

you have the enormous success of Dyson, hiring engineers and skilled

:47:24.:47:30.

mathematicians and scientists from every university in the country and

:47:31.:47:33.

long may that continue. What we will do is help by training 3 million

:47:34.:47:37.

apprentices in this parliament will stop we are giving special help

:47:38.:47:42.

teachers of Stem subjects and them into teaching. I think there was a

:47:43.:47:45.

lot business and industry can do to help us in this, by going into

:47:46.:47:49.

schools and talking about what these modern engineering careers are all

:47:50.:47:53.

about. How much the film and people can get from these careers, to

:47:54.:47:56.

encourage people to change the culture when it comes to pursuing

:47:57.:48:02.

these careers. Mr Speaker, young people are afraid of losing their

:48:03.:48:08.

homes. Women denied the pensions they were expecting an increasingly

:48:09.:48:12.

the needy left exposed without the social care they need to live a

:48:13.:48:17.

decent life. When will the Prime Minister address the scandals? What

:48:18.:48:23.

we are doing for pensioners is putting in place the triple lock so

:48:24.:48:26.

every pensioner knows there can never be another shameful 75p

:48:27.:48:33.

increase in the pension that we saw under Labour. They know that every

:48:34.:48:37.

year it will either be wages, prices or 2.5%. That is why the pension is

:48:38.:48:42.

so much higher than when I became Prime Minister. Of course we need to

:48:43.:48:45.

make sure there is a fair settlement for local government as well. We

:48:46.:48:48.

will be hearing more about that later today. But this ability of

:48:49.:48:53.

local councils to raise special council tax for social care will

:48:54.:48:57.

help in an area where there is great pressure. Nigel Adams.

:48:58.:49:04.

The Spitfire was a crucial element in us winning the Battle of Britain

:49:05.:49:12.

75 years ago. And keeping our country free from tyranny. However,

:49:13.:49:18.

there are some who fear that our independent, nuclear deterrent could

:49:19.:49:24.

be as obsolete as a Spitfire. Good my right honourable friend the Prime

:49:25.:49:29.

Minister assure the House and the country this is not the case? It

:49:30.:49:37.

takes quite a talent in the Shadow Defence Secretary to insult Spitfire

:49:38.:49:43.

pilots and sub Mariner 's all in one go. Another week, another ludicrous

:49:44.:49:49.

Labour position on defence. The last word should go to our right

:49:50.:49:55.

honourable member in Bridgend who tweeted, oh dear, oh dear, oh my

:49:56.:49:59.

God. Need to go to rest in a darkened room. I'm sure she will

:50:00.:50:02.

find the rest of her party will be there with her!

:50:03.:50:08.

At today's's select committee the Business Secretary confirmed the

:50:09.:50:26.

Government won't support the EU commission in raising tariffs on

:50:27.:50:30.

dumped steel from countries like China. Why won't the UK Government

:50:31.:50:37.

stand up for UK steel? We have repeatedly stood up for UK steel,

:50:38.:50:43.

including supporting taking anti-dumping measures in the EU. But

:50:44.:50:47.

that is not enough. We need to get behind public procurement for steel

:50:48.:50:50.

and that is what we are doing for them we need to get behind reducing

:50:51.:50:54.

energy bills for steel and that is what we're doing, we need to support

:50:55.:50:57.

communities like his own who have seem job losses, and that is exactly

:50:58.:51:01.

what we're doing. We recognise what a vital part Britain's industrial

:51:02.:51:08.

case British Steel is that is why we are backing it. Thank you Mr

:51:09.:51:16.

Speaker. Julian Assange is accused of rape and is on the run. Despite

:51:17.:51:22.

this, a United Nations panel nobody has ever heard of, declared last

:51:23.:51:27.

week that he has been arbitrarily detained and somehow deserving of

:51:28.:51:31.

compensation. Does my right honourable friend agree with me that

:51:32.:51:36.

this was a nonsensical decision? That Julian Assange sure turned

:51:37.:51:42.

himself over to the Swedish prosecutors and if anyone is

:51:43.:51:45.

deserving of compensation, it is the British taxpayer, who has had to pay

:51:46.:51:55.

?12 million to police his Ecuadorian hideout? My right honourable friend

:51:56.:51:59.

is absolutely right. I think this was a ridiculous decision for you

:52:00.:52:03.

have a man ear with an outstanding allegation of rape against him. He

:52:04.:52:07.

barricaded himself into the Ecuadorian Embassy but claims he was

:52:08.:52:11.

arbitrarily detained. The only person who detained himself was

:52:12.:52:14.

himself. What he should do is come out of that embassy and face the

:52:15.:52:19.

arrest warrant against him. He is being asked to stand trial in

:52:20.:52:25.

Sweden, a country with a fair reputation for justice. He should

:52:26.:52:28.

bring to an end this whole sorry saga. Mike Weir. Women's aid groups

:52:29.:52:39.

have raised concerns that changes in social housing benefits may close

:52:40.:52:48.

many refuges. Can the Prime Minister exempt refuges from this? I said in

:52:49.:52:53.

a to questions from the opposition, we want to support supported housing

:52:54.:52:57.

projects. There are work in many of our constituencies and we have seen

:52:58.:53:00.

how important they are. These changes we are talking about, about

:53:01.:53:04.

housing benefit, don't come into place until 2018. There is plenty of

:53:05.:53:08.

time to make sure that we support supported housing projects. Thank

:53:09.:53:13.

you, Mr Speaker. Next month Milton Keynes will host the first-ever

:53:14.:53:18.

National apprenticeship fair. We have a strong record in expanding

:53:19.:53:23.

apprenticeships. But is there not still a need for a cultural shift in

:53:24.:53:27.

careers advice, to show the high-level apprenticeships are

:53:28.:53:32.

equally valid to university places? I think my honourable friend is

:53:33.:53:35.

absolutely right. The careers advice we need to give young people is that

:53:36.:53:40.

there is a choice for every school either, we hope, of either a

:53:41.:53:43.

university place, because have uncapped unit per university places

:53:44.:53:50.

or apprenticeships and we to explain if you become an apprentice, that

:53:51.:53:54.

doesn't rule out doing a degree or a degree level qualification later on,

:53:55.:53:59.

during your apprenticeship. The option of earning and learning is

:54:00.:54:01.

stronger in Britain today than it has ever been before.

:54:02.:54:07.

Thank you Mr Speaker. Does the Prime Minister agree that housing protects

:54:08.:54:16.

human rights of people in the United Kingdom and deserves full and

:54:17.:54:18.

careful consideration question that will he give an assurance that his

:54:19.:54:24.

repeal of the Human Rights Act will not conflict with Scotland? We will

:54:25.:54:33.

very carefully all of these issues. I would say to the honourable lady

:54:34.:54:36.

and honourable members opposite, the idea that there were no human rights

:54:37.:54:40.

in Britain before the Human Rights Act is an absolutely ludicrous

:54:41.:54:45.

notion. This house has been a great Bastian and defender of human

:54:46.:54:50.

rights, but we will look very carefully of the timing of any

:54:51.:55:00.

announcements we make. Mr Speaker I spent most of my working life in

:55:01.:55:05.

children's hospices, rely on donations from organisations like

:55:06.:55:09.

children in need, you have a long association with the town of Pudsey.

:55:10.:55:14.

Would my right honourable friend join me and the people of Pudsey in

:55:15.:55:20.

paying tribute to Sir Terry Wogan, who did so much to inspire millions

:55:21.:55:24.

of pounds to be donated to these quarters question what I am very

:55:25.:55:29.

happy to do that. The honourable member representing his

:55:30.:55:32.

constituency, where Pudsey has such a connection is right to raise this.

:55:33.:55:36.

I think Terry Wogan was one of the great icons of this country. Like

:55:37.:55:41.

many people in this house you felt you grew up with him, listening to

:55:42.:55:46.

him in the radio, in the cart or watching him present programmes. At

:55:47.:55:50.

many people's favourite was the Eurovision Song contest, which every

:55:51.:55:53.

year he brought such great humour too. I think we were all fans and he

:55:54.:55:59.

will be hugely missed and his work with children in need was

:56:00.:56:07.

particularly special. On Monday I attended the work and pensions

:56:08.:56:11.

tribunal appeal hearing for my constituent, a brave and inspiring

:56:12.:56:18.

woman whose dwarfism. Despite being able to climb staircases except on

:56:19.:56:22.

all fours she was awarded zero disability points by her assessor

:56:23.:56:28.

can I asked the Prime Minister if he has if he has attended any tribunal

:56:29.:56:33.

hearings and if so if he found the process fair dignified and

:56:34.:56:40.

compassion question what I am happy to look into the Casey races. I have

:56:41.:56:46.

people coming to surgery with enquiries either about employment

:56:47.:56:50.

and support allowance or about disability living allowance. I have

:56:51.:56:54.

the experience having had a disabled son of filling out all the forms

:56:55.:56:57.

myself, and looking forward to the new system, which I think with the

:56:58.:57:01.

proper medical check, will work out better. I have listened to these

:57:02.:57:05.

arguments but we have to have a system of adjudication which is

:57:06.:57:13.

independent of politicians. Growing up nearby I always knew I was nearly

:57:14.:57:18.

home when I saw the iconic cooling towers of the power stations on the

:57:19.:57:25.

horizon. On Monday the owners of the remaining power station announced

:57:26.:57:28.

its likely closure this summer. Well my right honourable friend asked the

:57:29.:57:34.

Secretary of State to meet with me and discuss further the Government's

:57:35.:57:38.

support that can be provided to the 150 workers and the provisions that

:57:39.:57:42.

can be made to ensure the site is redeveloped as quickly as possible?

:57:43.:57:48.

I will certainly arrange for that meeting to take place. We should

:57:49.:57:52.

thank everyone who has worked at power stations that come to the end

:57:53.:57:55.

of their lives, for the work they have done to give us a lecture city,

:57:56.:57:58.

to keep our lights on and our economy moving. I think she is

:57:59.:58:02.

absolutely right. As coal powered power stations come to the end of

:58:03.:58:05.

their lives, we must make sure proper redevelopment takes place so

:58:06.:58:09.

we provide jobs for constituents like hers. The football supporters

:58:10.:58:15.

Federation is considering calling on fans to hold mass walk-outs, in

:58:16.:58:18.

order to get their voices heard about the issue of ticket prices.

:58:19.:58:22.

Will the Prime Minister act, to give fans a place at the table in club

:58:23.:58:26.

boardrooms, in order that their voices can be heard when issues such

:58:27.:58:32.

as ticket prices are being discussed? I will look very

:58:33.:58:35.

carefully at the suggestion the honourable gentleman makes. I think

:58:36.:58:40.

there is a problem here, where some teams and some clubs put up prices

:58:41.:58:44.

very rapidly every year, even though so much of the money for football

:58:45.:58:49.

comes through the sponsorship and equipment and other sources. I will

:58:50.:58:55.

look very carefully at what he says. The vital debate and votes on the

:58:56.:58:59.

Trident successes submarine should have been held in the last

:59:00.:59:03.

parliament but was blocked by the Liberal Democrats. Given the farm

:59:04.:59:09.

the Prime Minister had a few moments and go at the Labour Party 's

:59:10.:59:14.

expense over Trident's success, it must be tempting for him to put off

:59:15.:59:18.

the vote until the conference in October for, I urge him to do the

:59:19.:59:22.

statesman-like thing and hold that vote as soon as is of, because

:59:23.:59:26.

everyone is ready for it and everyone is expecting it. What we

:59:27.:59:31.

should do is have the vote when we need to have the vote, and that is

:59:32.:59:35.

exactly what we will do. No one should be in any doubt that this

:59:36.:59:38.

government is going to press ahead with all the decisions that are

:59:39.:59:43.

necessary to replace in full hour Trident is a Marines. I think the

:59:44.:59:47.

Labour Party should listen to Lord Hutton, who was their Defence

:59:48.:59:50.

Secretary for many years. He said, if Labour wants to retain any

:59:51.:59:55.

credibility on defence whatsoever it better recognise the abject futility

:59:56.:59:59.

of what its leadership is currently proposing. I hope when that vote

:00:00.:00:02.

comes we will have support from right across this House of Commons.

:00:03.:00:08.

In light of today's's damning National Audit Office report on

:00:09.:00:12.

teacher shortages, will the Prime Minister take urgent steps to help

:00:13.:00:16.

schools such as those in my constituency to recruit and retain

:00:17.:00:20.

the best teachers, including extending the London weighting to

:00:21.:00:26.

Harrow schools and other suburban schools question what we will look

:00:27.:00:30.

carefully at this report. There are 13,100 more teachers in my schools

:00:31.:00:34.

than when I became per minister. Our teachers are better qualified than

:00:35.:00:39.

ever before. People are shouting out about increased pupil numbers but

:00:40.:00:42.

they might be interested to know we have 40 7000 fewer tuple is in

:00:43.:00:50.

overcrowded schools because we put investment in where it was needed.

:00:51.:00:54.

But we do need schemes like teach first, like our national leadership

:00:55.:00:58.

programme, that are getting some of the best teachers into the schools

:00:59.:01:04.

where they are most needed. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister

:01:05.:01:08.

deserves great credit for the results of the Syria replenishment

:01:09.:01:16.

conference, which was held under his leadership in London. He will be

:01:17.:01:20.

aware this can only address the symptoms of the catastrophe and not

:01:21.:01:29.

the causes. What can he tell the House the government can do to make

:01:30.:01:35.

sure it reaches a speedy success question mark can I thank my right

:01:36.:01:41.

honourable friend. It gives me the opportunity to thank my co-hosts the

:01:42.:01:45.

Norwegians, the Germans and whether Kuwait is on the Secretary General

:01:46.:01:48.

of the United Nations. We raised in one day more money than has ever

:01:49.:01:52.

been raised that one of these conferences ever in their history,

:01:53.:01:56.

over $10 billion. I want to pay tribute to my right honourable

:01:57.:02:00.

friend, the secretary of state is a defeat he did a lot of work. It will

:02:01.:02:08.

help close and feed people and give them the medicine they need. We need

:02:09.:02:11.

a political solution and go on working with all our political

:02:12.:02:15.

partners to deliver this. It requires all countries, including

:02:16.:02:19.

Russia, to recognise the need for a moderate Sunni opposition to be at

:02:20.:02:23.

the table, to create a transitional authority in Syria. Without that, I

:02:24.:02:27.

feel we will end up with a situation where you have Assad in one corner

:02:28.:02:35.

and Daesh in the other. The worst outcome in terms of terrorism,

:02:36.:02:43.

refugees and the outcome of Syria. I am sure the Prime Minister is

:02:44.:02:46.

looking forward to visiting Hull next year. As the UK's city of

:02:47.:02:51.

culture we are backed by many prestigious organisations like the

:02:52.:02:56.

BBC and RAC, but we can do much better, to make this a real national

:02:57.:02:59.

celebration of culture. Will the Prime Minister join with me in

:03:00.:03:03.

urging the many London based National arts organisations to

:03:04.:03:07.

actually do their bit and contribute to the success? I think the

:03:08.:03:14.

honourable lady makes a very important point, which is our

:03:15.:03:18.

national cultural institutions have immense amount of works and prestige

:03:19.:03:23.

that they can bring out to regional Galleries and regional centres when

:03:24.:03:32.

there is a city -- culture event. I will enjoy visiting Hull Foster I

:03:33.:03:35.

know my right honourable friend will want to join me in the city of Hull.

:03:36.:03:41.

It is a city of poets, home to Philip Larkin for many years, and of

:03:42.:03:46.

course, Stevie Smith. Sometimes one might want to contemplate what it's

:03:47.:03:55.

like waving and not drowning. The election for the chair of the

:03:56.:03:57.

environmental audit committee is now taking place in committee room 16.

:03:58.:04:06.

Voting will continue until 1:30pm. Also voting on a deferred division

:04:07.:04:10.

is taking place in the no lobby. This will continue until 2pm.

:04:11.:05:36.

Order. I think we are going to come to points of order. Point of order,

:05:37.:05:49.

Mr James Gray. I seek your garden -- guidance on an issue which could

:05:50.:05:56.

undermine the traditions of this House. That is the matter of the

:05:57.:06:05.

chains -- change of use to pay for a recording of Acts of Parliament. In

:06:06.:06:08.

the 9th of August last year, you indicated to me that there would be

:06:09.:06:15.

a substantive vote in this House before the motion occurred. I asked

:06:16.:06:18.

for a point of order from the honourable lady for Washington and

:06:19.:06:20.

Sunderland on the night. You indicated you have changed your view

:06:21.:06:25.

on that matter and it would no longer be a substantive vote in this

:06:26.:06:30.

House and if she wished to register her opposition to it, a vote would

:06:31.:06:37.

be needed. Am I right that this would have no effect whatsoever.

:06:38.:06:44.

However, if I was to call a debate for the Backbench Business Committee

:06:45.:06:47.

with a substantive motion and request that this retrograde

:06:48.:06:52.

decision be reversed, can you advise what effect that would have on our

:06:53.:06:56.

decision in this place and whether the other place would have any

:06:57.:07:00.

reason to listen to that decision? Order, let me say the following to

:07:01.:07:04.

the honourable gentleman to say I am grateful for his point of order.

:07:05.:07:09.

First, I have not changed my view on the desirability of a vote in this

:07:10.:07:12.

chamber on the matter. The honourable gentleman was quite right

:07:13.:07:16.

in saying, as I readily acknowledged yesterday when a point of order was

:07:17.:07:22.

raised, that I had expected that a vote would take place on that

:07:23.:07:26.

matter, in this House. However, the matter does fall within the Aegis

:07:27.:07:35.

and it appears in terms of decision-making contents, the

:07:36.:07:37.

exclusive Aegis of the other place. For that reason, and on account of

:07:38.:07:45.

their desire to proceed, there is no entitlement for this House to

:07:46.:07:55.

supersede the other place's well. Secondly, the honourable gentleman

:07:56.:07:57.

quite correctly judges that it would be open to him and other members to

:07:58.:08:03.

seek a Backbench Business Committee debate on this matter, and I wish

:08:04.:08:09.

the honourable gentleman all success, presumably in a cross-party

:08:10.:08:14.

effort, to secure such a debate. It is not for me to seek to comment on

:08:15.:08:21.

how the other place judges matters. I would not have sought to do so

:08:22.:08:28.

anyway, and I have been reminded by sound professional advice, that it

:08:29.:08:31.

is not for me to do so. So I don't think I should get into the business

:08:32.:08:35.

of speculating about what might happen. But I have known the

:08:36.:08:39.

honourable gentleman forward over 20 years, and he is at his best a

:08:40.:08:44.

formidable and energetic campaigner. My advice to the honourable

:08:45.:08:49.

gentleman, if you feel strongly, together with his honourable friend

:08:50.:08:52.

from the Labour benches who raised the matter yesterday, to go ahead

:08:53.:08:56.

and seek a debate and to marshal his forces. And to plan for victory,

:08:57.:09:03.

rather than to spend time sitting around predicting it. Perhaps we can

:09:04.:09:12.

leave it there. I think it would be tactful to

:09:13.:09:19.

ignore the sedentary but no doubt purposeful interjection from the

:09:20.:09:26.

honourable gentleman for the constituency of Bolsover, but I

:09:27.:09:30.

heard what he said. Point of order, Tommy Sheppard.

:09:31.:09:36.

I wish to raise the issue of how we select questions in the post English

:09:37.:09:44.

laws for English constituencies. Today we have Scottish questions. 48

:09:45.:09:50.

non-Scottish members submitted a question, 12 were chosen, a success

:09:51.:09:54.

rate of 25%. I appreciate the randomness of the situation creates

:09:55.:09:59.

these considerations, but there is a matter of concern that Scottish

:10:00.:10:02.

members have only a one in four chance of questions to be Scottish

:10:03.:10:05.

secretary as compared to other member 's of the House. And in the

:10:06.:10:10.

review that we are about to undertake, of English votes for

:10:11.:10:14.

English laws, could I ask ever so gently whether you would consider

:10:15.:10:17.

whether it might be appropriate for those from the party which have a

:10:18.:10:21.

specific territorial response ability, whether some mechanism

:10:22.:10:25.

could be achieved to allow the members representing those areas are

:10:26.:10:30.

better chance of holding ministers to account?

:10:31.:10:32.

I'm very grateful to the honourable gentleman for his point of order.

:10:33.:10:37.

The short answer to the thrust of his question is selection is done by

:10:38.:10:42.

electronic ballot. It is done that way for questions to the Secretary

:10:43.:10:45.

of State for Scotland, and it is done that way in respect of every

:10:46.:10:50.

other Question Time edge to explain in this chamber. With reference to

:10:51.:10:55.

the honourable gentleman's request for consideration of an alternative

:10:56.:10:59.

method, I am happy to consider his point, but I had the honourable

:11:00.:11:04.

gentleman will bear in mind the likelihood that there will exist

:11:05.:11:09.

opinions on this matter, are the van and different from his own. We would

:11:10.:11:16.

leave it there for now. Point of order, Mr Tim Farron.

:11:17.:11:20.

Mr Speaker, I sit your help on matter. The Immigration Minister

:11:21.:11:25.

yesterday, in response to a written question had to correct an

:11:26.:11:27.

inaccurate answer previously given to a question as to how many young

:11:28.:11:34.

adults who had been previously refugees but were unaccompanied

:11:35.:11:39.

minors in this country, had been forcibly removed from this country.

:11:40.:11:44.

The original answer was 1600, the corrected answer was 3750. I wonder

:11:45.:11:50.

he would help make into opening up an investigation into how that might

:11:51.:11:54.

have happened, but also to press for information about what the cost to

:11:55.:12:00.

the UK Exchequer, from deporting from our country 3750 young people,

:12:01.:12:05.

who we had invested in for many years, and were just at the time of

:12:06.:12:12.

their life and about to contribute to our country?

:12:13.:12:13.

I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman for his point of order.

:12:14.:12:17.

The short answer to hear him is he can't seek a debate on the matter,

:12:18.:12:22.

he can table written parliamentary questions pursuant to the

:12:23.:12:25.

information he has already extracted, and he can raise the

:12:26.:12:32.

matter with all the authority of his leadership office on the floor of

:12:33.:12:37.

the House, at business questions tomorrow. I keenly expect to see the

:12:38.:12:44.

honourable gentleman, the right honourable gentleman, the member for

:12:45.:12:49.

Westmorland and Lonsdale in his place, and leaping to his feet with

:12:50.:12:55.

a laxity tomorrow morning. We will leave it there for now. -- with

:12:56.:13:00.

alacrity. If there are no further points of

:13:01.:13:04.

order, we come to the presentation of Bill in the name of secretary

:13:05.:13:13.

Teresa Villiers. A minister nods and he has done so.

:13:14.:13:17.

Northern Ireland agreement and implementation plan bill. Second

:13:18.:13:23.

reading what day? Tomorrow. Thank you. Presentation of Bill, secretary

:13:24.:13:34.

Teresa May. Policing and Crime Bill. Second reading what day?

:13:35.:13:40.

Tomorrow. Thank you. We come now to the ten minute rule motion, Mr Will

:13:41.:13:45.

Quince. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg leave

:13:46.:13:49.

to bring a bill which would prohibit the use of wild animals in circuses

:13:50.:13:55.

and for connected purposes. We had mention of Andy Murray's new baby,

:13:56.:13:59.

and I should mention in the last few days, we have had a new delivery

:14:00.:14:04.

ourselves, and it would be remiss of me not to apologise for taking a

:14:05.:14:08.

pause in our paternity arrangements to present this bill.

:14:09.:14:15.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful for the opportunity to bring in this

:14:16.:14:19.

bill and I would like to pay tribute to those members, and in particular

:14:20.:14:22.

the member for Poplar and Limehouse, and the member for The Wrekin, who

:14:23.:14:27.

worked hard on this matter in this Parliament and pressed for

:14:28.:14:32.

prohibition on the use of wild animals in circuses. The

:14:33.:14:35.

Conservative manifesto on which I was proud to stand for the general

:14:36.:14:40.

election of 2015 states we will ban wild animals in circuses. It is a

:14:41.:14:44.

commitment mirrored on all sides of this House. The Labour Party

:14:45.:14:49.

manifesto committed to ban wild animals in circuses. The Democratic

:14:50.:14:54.

Unionist Party supports a ban on wild animals in circuses. The SNP's

:14:55.:14:59.

Westminster manifesto promised to consult on wild animals in

:15:00.:15:03.

travelling circuses, with many SNP MPs and MSP is now calling for a

:15:04.:15:05.

complete ban. It is one of those rare moments

:15:06.:15:12.

where we have a degree of consensus. In 2011, the House agreed a

:15:13.:15:16.

Backbench Business motion called on the then Government to ban all wild

:15:17.:15:20.

animals in circuses. Many members of this House consider this a piece of

:15:21.:15:23.

unfinished business from the last Parliament and I appreciate the

:15:24.:15:27.

chance to introduce the Bill today to press for this vital reform.

:15:28.:15:32.

Ahead of a ban being introduced, the Coalition Government did introduce

:15:33.:15:37.

as an interim welfare measure legislation to licence those

:15:38.:15:39.

circuses which used wild animals. I believe it is time for that ban to

:15:40.:15:48.

be introduced, to supercede those regulations. Last year, there were

:15:49.:15:53.

18 wild animals still being used by travelling circuses in England. It's

:15:54.:15:58.

a small number of animals, but it is a practice that I, the majority of

:15:59.:16:02.

MPs and the vast majority of the public in this country think should

:16:03.:16:06.

be brought to an end. So, Mr Speaker, why are wild animals in

:16:07.:16:10.

circuses now not appropriate? There is the practical element. In the

:16:11.:16:14.

past two centuries, wild animals were an essential part of the circus

:16:15.:16:18.

experience. The definition of a wild animal is a member of a species that

:16:19.:16:23.

is not normally domesticated in Great Britain. For many people,

:16:24.:16:27.

particularly those who could not afford foreign holidays, circuses

:16:28.:16:30.

were the only way and the only opportunity for those people to see

:16:31.:16:34.

wild and exotic animals. We know that that is now not the case. We

:16:35.:16:38.

are very fortunate in this country to have many world-class zoos.

:16:39.:16:43.

Colchester Zoo is one example where you can see elephants, tigers,

:16:44.:16:46.

penguins, lions, bears and chimpanzees. I should probably

:16:47.:16:51.

declare an interest that I'm a Gold Card member of the zoo and goi with

:16:52.:16:57.

my daughter on many occasions throughout the year. The zoo does

:16:58.:17:01.

fantastic work caring for those animals and providing them with

:17:02.:17:04.

different types of enrichment to occupy their time and promote

:17:05.:17:08.

natural behaviours. Crucially, the zoo aims to ensure that the

:17:09.:17:11.

conditions in which wild animals are kept are as close as possible to

:17:12.:17:17.

their natural habitats, educating people about the species' natural

:17:18.:17:22.

environment as well as enabling them to promote important issues such as

:17:23.:17:26.

conservation. Thanks to the huge growth in the opportunity of foreign

:17:27.:17:29.

travel, many more people can actually travel across the world to

:17:30.:17:33.

see these animals in their natural habitats. The extraordinary wildlife

:17:34.:17:38.

documentaries on television now mean we can see these wild animals in

:17:39.:17:42.

high-definition from our living rooms should we so wish. The second

:17:43.:17:46.

objection is to do with our basic respect for wild animals. Wild

:17:47.:17:51.

animals that have been kept and used in travelling circuses have the same

:17:52.:17:54.

counterparts in zoos or in the wild. counterparts in zoos or in the wild.

:17:55.:18:00.

Their instinctive behaviours remain. Using such animals to perform tricks

:18:01.:18:06.

and stunts hardly encourages people to respect the animals' value.

:18:07.:18:12.

Neither is there any educational, conservational or research benefit

:18:13.:18:16.

from using these animals solely or primarily for such entertainment and

:18:17.:18:20.

spectacle. I understand that the circus keepers in many cases do the

:18:21.:18:24.

best they can to care for the wild animals in question. And those

:18:25.:18:29.

circuses licensed under DEFRA's scheme have welfare standards to

:18:30.:18:34.

adhere to. The very nature of the circus business model means that

:18:35.:18:39.

attempting to recreate the natural habitat of a wild species or in aid

:18:40.:18:43.

of its conservation, it can never be achieved. Respected animal wealth

:18:44.:18:49.

and welfare groups such as the RSPCA and the British Veterinary

:18:50.:18:52.

Association have long supported and campaigned for a complete ban on the

:18:53.:18:55.

use of wild animals in circuses. Their views are based on the

:18:56.:18:59.

strongly-held belief that travelling circuses cannot meet the welfare

:19:00.:19:03.

needs of wild animals. I have some sympathy. The Radford Report in 2007

:19:04.:19:08.

concluded that there appeared to be little evidence to demonstrate that

:19:09.:19:12.

the welfare of animals kept in travelling circuses is any better or

:19:13.:19:16.

worse than those animals kept in similar captive environments. So it

:19:17.:19:20.

is clear there are very strong views on both sides. It is vital that we

:19:21.:19:25.

are evidence-based when we are seeking to introduce a ban and we

:19:26.:19:29.

recognise the grounds on which it would be sensible to introduce this

:19:30.:19:33.

prohibition. First and foremost, I want to get this ban through and

:19:34.:19:38.

carry the support of members on all sides. I'm aware there are some,

:19:39.:19:42.

including in this House, who argue these animals were born and bred in

:19:43.:19:45.

circuses and it would be cruel to drag them away from the keepers and

:19:46.:19:50.

the environments they know well. I understand that argument. I'm afraid

:19:51.:19:57.

I disagree. You cannot make the perfect the enemy of the good.

:19:58.:20:02.

Opposing a ban on this basis that wild animals already in circuses

:20:03.:20:05.

might be disrupted from their regular patterns of life would stop

:20:06.:20:11.

a ban being implemented and wouldn't be acceptable. Of course, it is

:20:12.:20:16.

vital there is provision to ensure that those wild animals in circuses

:20:17.:20:21.

in England are well cared for in their retirement and DEFRA's circus

:20:22.:20:26.

licensing scheme requires that all licenced animals must have

:20:27.:20:28.

retirement plans in place. It is also important we give those

:20:29.:20:32.

circuses affected appropriate time to prepare and adapt to any ban. But

:20:33.:20:37.

like so many across this House, I really believe that this reform,

:20:38.:20:41.

whose time has come, that this reform whose time has come, we

:20:42.:20:49.

should continue and follow countries like Austria, Belgium and the

:20:50.:20:52.

Netherlands in prohibiting wild animals in circuses. They were once

:20:53.:20:56.

an integral part of the circus experience. This is no longer the

:20:57.:20:59.

case. The use of wild animals in travelling circuses can no longer be

:21:00.:21:05.

justified. The majority of MPs want a ban, the public supports a ban, I

:21:06.:21:09.

urge colleagues to support this Bill.

:21:10.:21:11.

THE SPEAKER: The question is that the honourable member have leave to

:21:12.:21:17.

bring in the Bill. I hadn't intended to speak today,

:21:18.:21:23.

but having heard from what my honourable friend has said, I think

:21:24.:21:27.

it is important to put down on the record that if indeed his proposal

:21:28.:21:33.

is one which is supported by the Government, that any legislation

:21:34.:21:38.

should be brought forward by the Government rather than using the

:21:39.:21:43.

private members procedure and the reason I say that - and I think was

:21:44.:21:46.

conceded by my honourable friend in his speech - is that this is a

:21:47.:21:55.

controversial issue. My honourable friend conceded that it was a

:21:56.:22:00.

controversial issue and I think it is not surprising that, as a

:22:01.:22:04.

Conservative, I should regard it as controversial that we should be

:22:05.:22:08.

thinking about introducing a total prohibition on what is currently a

:22:09.:22:13.

perfectly lawful activity. So, if we are going to have legislation on

:22:14.:22:17.

this, let the Government bring forward its Bill and let's have a

:22:18.:22:22.

proper debate around the detail of that Bill. For example, my

:22:23.:22:32.

honourable friend, if he is going to listen to this response, what was

:22:33.:22:38.

said in his remarks was that he was talking about tricks being done by

:22:39.:22:41.

these wild animals in circuses. If one looks at the Bill that was

:22:42.:22:45.

introduced in the last Parliament, it actually seeks to impose a ban on

:22:46.:22:53.

the displaying of these wild animals. There's then an issue about

:22:54.:22:58.

what we define as a wild animal. For example, does my honourable friend

:22:59.:23:05.

think that a camel, which is in most countries of the world regarded as a

:23:06.:23:12.

domestic animal, that a camel should be banned from being able to

:23:13.:23:22.

participate in a circus? So, Mr Speaker...

:23:23.:23:24.

THE SPEAKER: In these circumstances we don't take interventions. That

:23:25.:23:30.

doesn't happen. And Mr Chope's remarks must be heard. Thank you, Mr

:23:31.:23:36.

Speaker. The other thing that my honourable friend didn't refer to

:23:37.:23:45.

was the outcome of the licensing regime, which has perfectly rightly

:23:46.:23:49.

been brought into effect. The consequence of that licensing

:23:50.:23:55.

regime, which requires up to seven inspections per year of animals in

:23:56.:23:59.

travelling circuses - and I think my honourable friend will correct me if

:24:00.:24:02.

I'm wrong, there is only one inspection per year for zoos such as

:24:03.:24:06.

Colchester Zoo. Seven inspections a year. We are now about to embark

:24:07.:24:12.

upon the fourth year of that licensing regime and nobody has

:24:13.:24:18.

criticised the welfare of the animals subject to that licensing

:24:19.:24:23.

regime. So, on the basis, Mr Speaker, that good Conservatives

:24:24.:24:30.

should argue for less regulation and prohibition, as little as is

:24:31.:24:33.

possible and reasonable, I think that we have reached a compromise

:24:34.:24:40.

here where we have got a proper tight welfare licensing regime

:24:41.:24:43.

without the need for a total ban or prohibition. That's why I say to my

:24:44.:24:49.

honourable friend that I think it would be wrong for him to raise the

:24:50.:24:55.

expectations of those people - and I accept that there are many people

:24:56.:24:58.

who support the views that he's expressed today - but it would be

:24:59.:25:06.

wrong for him to raise their expectations to suggest that this

:25:07.:25:10.

legislation could be put through under the Private Members' Bill

:25:11.:25:14.

procedure. And I hope that what he will say in response to comments

:25:15.:25:19.

about this is that the Government should bring forward legislation if

:25:20.:25:24.

indeed the Government has the will to implement this particular aspect

:25:25.:25:26.

of our manifesto. I think it would be out of order for

:25:27.:25:38.

me to talk about other aspects of the Conservative Party manifesto

:25:39.:25:41.

which have not yet been implemented and may not even be implement it at

:25:42.:25:46.

all. I think the onus for putting this matter right, if indeed it

:25:47.:25:50.

needs to be put right must be on the Government. This is going to be

:25:51.:25:54.

controversial technical legislation, and that is why I don't think it is

:25:55.:25:58.

appropriate for the private member procedure. Order. Question that the

:25:59.:26:06.

honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of

:26:07.:26:09.

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes

:26:10.:26:16.

have it. Who will prepare and bring in the Bill? Jim Dowd, Roger Gale,

:26:17.:26:26.

Mr Philip Hollobone, Brenda Sharma, Simon Hall, Luis Haig and myself,

:26:27.:26:37.

sir. -- Louise Haig. Mr Will Quince.

:26:38.:26:55.

Wild Animals in Circuses (Prohibition) bill. Second reading

:26:56.:27:01.

what day? Friday 4th of March. Thank you.

:27:02.:27:10.

Order, we come now to motion number two on the Police Grant Report

:27:11.:27:18.

England and Wales. I remind the House that this motion is subject to

:27:19.:27:24.

double majority voting. If a division is called on this motion,

:27:25.:27:28.

all members of the House are able to vote. Understanding order number 83

:27:29.:27:35.

are the motion will be agreed only if of those voting, both the

:27:36.:27:44.

majority of all members and the majority of members representing

:27:45.:27:48.

constituencies in England and Wales vote in support of the motion. At

:27:49.:27:56.

the end, the tellers will report the results, first for all members, and

:27:57.:28:02.

secondly for those representing constituencies in England and Wales.

:28:03.:28:07.

To move the motion, I call the minister. The Minister of State no

:28:08.:28:13.

less, Mr Mike Kenny. Thank you very much indeed, Mr

:28:14.:28:18.

Speaker. Can I beg for indulgence briefly, I noticed the new Serjeant

:28:19.:28:21.

at Arms is in place, I hope you still there now, no disrespect to

:28:22.:28:27.

the deputy. I know him well, he comes from a great regiment and we

:28:28.:28:33.

will miss him where he looks after our security and I'm sure he will do

:28:34.:28:36.

a fantastic job. Mr Speaker, I beg to move that the

:28:37.:28:40.

Police Grant Report for England and Wales for 2016 was laid before the

:28:41.:28:45.

House on the 4th of February, be approved. Mr Speaker, I was

:28:46.:28:49.

enormously proud when I was appointed the police minister. One

:28:50.:28:53.

of the things I did have very only on was a great deal of lobbying from

:28:54.:28:58.

colleagues around this House and from police constables and PC seas

:28:59.:29:03.

around the country, about the grant, whether it was fair, whether it

:29:04.:29:06.

should be changed and whether they felt they could survive if there

:29:07.:29:12.

were further cuts. However, we did inherit a really difficult economic

:29:13.:29:19.

situation and the Treasury quite rightly asked the Home Office

:29:20.:29:21.

whether or not our police forces could take further cuts. They have

:29:22.:29:23.

done particularly well under the last Parliament of taking really

:29:24.:29:28.

difficult financial decisions while we addressed the funding situation

:29:29.:29:36.

we inherited. What was really, really good was in most cases, and I

:29:37.:29:41.

say most cases, those discussions were sensible, they were pragmatic

:29:42.:29:47.

and actually, we can see from the fact that crime has fallen since

:29:48.:29:51.

2010, and continues to fall under this government, we can do more with

:29:52.:29:56.

less. I give way. I thank the Minister for giving way. If he

:29:57.:30:00.

decides with ministerial colleagues to extend the term of the

:30:01.:30:06.

Metropolitan Police Chief Constable, Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, will he make

:30:07.:30:10.

it a condition that Sir Bernard is not allowed to merge Harrow police

:30:11.:30:14.

with any other borough command, because of that were to happen,

:30:15.:30:19.

inevitably, Harrow police would be diverted to police other parts of

:30:20.:30:26.

London? Mr Speaker, unlike the previous Labour administration, we

:30:27.:30:29.

believe in police officers making the decisions they need for their

:30:30.:30:33.

communities and not a top-down approach. We have devolved

:30:34.:30:37.

operational policing to make sure Chief constables can do that and

:30:38.:30:41.

also other decisions around how local community funding is done

:30:42.:30:45.

either through the Mayor's office, or through PCCs. I know the Labour

:30:46.:30:52.

Party opposed PCCs extensively. They have extensively -- thankfully

:30:53.:31:00.

changed their minds. I would not in anyway instructed the Commissioner

:31:01.:31:04.

for London in how he should police London, nor the Mayor, that is a

:31:05.:31:09.

matter for them. What I will say is that there will be more money in

:31:10.:31:13.

London for policing than if there was a Labour minister standing here

:31:14.:31:18.

because obviously, Labour wanted to cut 10% of their funding budget.

:31:19.:31:21.

Perhaps I will come onto that again, perhaps.

:31:22.:31:27.

I'm very grateful. As he knows, I have always opposed cuts to the

:31:28.:31:31.

police budget every single year, and the Minister has always had a good

:31:32.:31:35.

argument to come back to by saying crime is going down, therefore that

:31:36.:31:41.

justifies the Government's position. In my local paper, the Bradford

:31:42.:31:47.

Telegraph and Argus lastly, it said crime had gone up by 15% over the

:31:48.:31:52.

Bradford district in the last year. If falling crime is a justification

:31:53.:31:59.

for a fall in police grant, now we have significant rise in crime in

:32:00.:32:01.

the Bradford district, by the same logic, does that mean we will get a

:32:02.:32:05.

substantial increase in the police grant? My honourable friend is

:32:06.:32:11.

nothing but determined to push his case each time, but crime has

:32:12.:32:19.

fallen. We are having reported crime, predict Leon sexual assaults

:32:20.:32:22.

and a list of violence have been seen to go up and I am pleased that

:32:23.:32:25.

people have the confidence to come forward which they would not have

:32:26.:32:30.

done in the past. I think we need to look very carefully at where types

:32:31.:32:36.

of crime are increasing. I was the other day with the car manufacturers

:32:37.:32:40.

asking them to questions about how come we have seen an increase in car

:32:41.:32:45.

thefts, particularly in high-value vehicles when we had seen a decrease

:32:46.:32:49.

for some considerable time. But also seeing increases in crime which were

:32:50.:32:53.

never able to be on statistics before such as fraud, and under the

:32:54.:32:58.

previous administration fraud was not reported and will become part of

:32:59.:33:03.

the statistics. It is sadly part of our lifestyles and crime that we

:33:04.:33:09.

have today. Mr Speaker, what was really interesting after the

:33:10.:33:12.

Chancellor made the announcement at this dispatch box that we were not

:33:13.:33:17.

going to cut by 25%, not cut by 10% as the Shadow Home Secretary

:33:18.:33:21.

suggested, and not cut in a way which some forces said they could

:33:22.:33:25.

manage. What we said as we would not cut it at all. We would not cut

:33:26.:33:29.

between now and 2020 to give the confidence to the police that they

:33:30.:33:33.

needed to make sure that they had the funding. What is very

:33:34.:33:37.

interesting is the Police Commissioner for London and other

:33:38.:33:40.

chiefs did not suddenly say, OK them, we will not do any more

:33:41.:33:43.

reforms, we will not go ahead with some of the reforms because we have

:33:44.:33:47.

got the money that we needed, actually what the commissioner said

:33:48.:33:50.

that very night was we need to go ahead with many of the reforms that

:33:51.:33:54.

are making our police forces better as we go forwards, to detect and

:33:55.:34:02.

convicted criminals that we need. I am grateful to the Minister for

:34:03.:34:05.

giving way. He must accept there are 18,000 fewer police officers there

:34:06.:34:10.

when I stood at that dispatch box six years ago. He has to accept

:34:11.:34:14.

there are cuts in the real term grant and he should come to the

:34:15.:34:18.

House and explain honestly why local authorities and Police Commissioner

:34:19.:34:22.

such as mine in North Wales are simply precept to compensate for the

:34:23.:34:27.

cut in the central government grant. I will take a couple of points the

:34:28.:34:33.

Minister races with experience of being in the Home Office. Absolutely

:34:34.:34:38.

right when he said there were more police than there are today.

:34:39.:34:43.

Actually, there are more warranted officers on the streets of this

:34:44.:34:47.

country today doing the work we need them to do than when he was

:34:48.:34:51.

minister. I have still got concerns about some forces that had over 10%

:34:52.:34:55.

of their warranted officers who are not operationally out there on the

:34:56.:34:58.

streets doing the job we would expect them to do. Those are the

:34:59.:35:02.

sort of reforms we need them to continue to press forward on and

:35:03.:35:05.

make sure they have the skills they need and the equipment they need. I

:35:06.:35:13.

will not give way until later. On the particular point, if he wants to

:35:14.:35:18.

raise that point, then he should have been asking the question of his

:35:19.:35:23.

own front bench as to why they publicly said let's cut the police

:35:24.:35:27.

grant by another 10%, something we have not done.

:35:28.:35:33.

I think the honourable friend, I feel like I had been promoted ahead

:35:34.:35:38.

of the Shadow Home Secretary! On the point he made about the increase in

:35:39.:35:44.

police budgets, such as Lancashire where the directly funded police

:35:45.:35:47.

grant is actually going up, would he be as surprised as me, that the

:35:48.:35:51.

Lancashire Police and crime Constable and Chief constable were

:35:52.:35:56.

giving doomsday scenarios that Lancashire Constabulary is no longer

:35:57.:36:01.

fit for purpose and they have not come out and welcomed this budget?

:36:02.:36:08.

What has really shocked me, and I met a delegation from across the

:36:09.:36:14.

House from Lancashire, I meet every MD who wants to see me, not only has

:36:15.:36:18.

the Chief Constable not welcomed it but he has been whingeing that he

:36:19.:36:21.

will be short of money again this time. He needs to take a very close

:36:22.:36:27.

look at his reserves. He has been moaning about ?1 million, actually,

:36:28.:36:32.

if he looks at his reserves, it is minuscule compared to the reserves

:36:33.:36:36.

that Lancashire have. On one final point before I give way to the

:36:37.:36:40.

Shadow Home Secretary on precept, all governments look at precept.

:36:41.:36:46.

There are some PCCs who say they will not increase their precept.

:36:47.:36:49.

Others will go to the limit of 2%. Others will take the ?5 agreement we

:36:50.:36:56.

have. I was lobbied extensively to allow the precept to go much higher

:36:57.:36:59.

than 2%. I will give way. I'm grateful to the

:37:00.:37:03.

minister but let's get something straight here. When I came into the

:37:04.:37:07.

job as Shadow Home Secretary, he and his other colleagues in the

:37:08.:37:12.

Government were proposing to cut the police by between 25 and 40%. That

:37:13.:37:17.

was their proposal. And it was pressure from these benches, led by

:37:18.:37:22.

my honourable friend, a full opposition Day debate, that forced

:37:23.:37:27.

them into a humiliating U-turn. Let's get our facts straight here.

:37:28.:37:32.

Is the promise was it seems? He is standing there seemingly to suggest

:37:33.:37:37.

there will be no cuts. Can he guarantee there will be no real

:37:38.:37:40.

terms cuts to any police force going forward in the next few years? I am

:37:41.:37:45.

so pleased I gave way, I should have given way earlier, I should

:37:46.:37:50.

apologise. I find this absolutely fascinating. Any opposition would

:37:51.:37:53.

have looked at modelling about what a force could do or could not do.

:37:54.:37:58.

That is what this government did. We asked the forces if they could

:37:59.:38:04.

absorb 25 of 40%. And we ask that question. What we did not do, Mr

:38:05.:38:09.

Speaker, is to come out after that modelling had taken place, and say

:38:10.:38:14.

completely arbitrary, we will make it temper sent. You will be all

:38:15.:38:22.

right with 10% between now and 2020. Some forces will have really

:38:23.:38:27.

struggled to have done that. The point was made to be by the Shadow

:38:28.:38:35.

Home Secretary, you can sit there in a sedentary position and waffle

:38:36.:38:40.

away, but actually, 10% was waffle because there was no fact behind it.

:38:41.:38:45.

If they go to the preset limits they have, no real terms cash cuts to the

:38:46.:38:51.

forces. I give way. I am most grateful. He should be

:38:52.:38:58.

commended as the first police minister in a generation to tackle

:38:59.:39:03.

the issue of police funding by starting a review of the police

:39:04.:39:07.

funding formula. The House knows that of course that review ended

:39:08.:39:13.

with a long pause. I wrote to him on the 1st of February and I asked when

:39:14.:39:17.

the consultation process would begin, something the select

:39:18.:39:20.

committee is very keen should happen as soon as possible. Is he now in a

:39:21.:39:25.

position to tell the House when that process will begin? Mr Speaker, I

:39:26.:39:29.

thank the chairman of the select committee for his letter and his

:39:30.:39:33.

kind comments he often gives me at the dispatch box and when I come

:39:34.:39:37.

before the committee. I wrote to him yesterday, I'm sorry if he has not

:39:38.:39:41.

received the letter. I did not give a definitive date. I do not think he

:39:42.:39:45.

would expect me to give a definitive date. We are looking at how the

:39:46.:39:49.

settlement is laid and how to make sure I did have to stand at this

:39:50.:40:01.

dispatch box and eat so much humble pie as I did last time when we got

:40:02.:40:04.

it wrong. I admit we got it wrong and we will not make that mistake

:40:05.:40:06.

again. My own police force, we had around

:40:07.:40:17.

240 fewer officers on the beat since 2010. It's a fact. What I would like

:40:18.:40:22.

to ask - in the next two years ahead, my rough calculations from

:40:23.:40:27.

the data released suggest that there will be a real-terms cut of nearly

:40:28.:40:32.

?3.5 million from South Wales Police. Am I wrong? I do think the

:40:33.:40:40.

honourable gentleman is wrong. Not least because, not only have I met

:40:41.:40:45.

South Wales MPs in the last couple of days, but the very vocal PPC,

:40:46.:40:52.

which I know very well, has not raised those figures with me. At the

:40:53.:40:57.

end of the day, I would also ask South Wales Police to look very,

:40:58.:41:03.

very closely before they ask for anymore money at the size of their

:41:04.:41:07.

reserves, which are quite astronomical. Mr Speaker, what we

:41:08.:41:13.

need to do is also look at the achievements of what the police have

:41:14.:41:16.

been able to do and the collaboration that has taken place

:41:17.:41:20.

with extra funding from the department to see how we can better

:41:21.:41:26.

police out there on a day-to-day basis, not have the situation that

:41:27.:41:30.

we have had for so many years where money is spent in one building only

:41:31.:41:35.

has only been half used where it could be used in another building up

:41:36.:41:44.

the road. Hampshire MPs are proud of the emergency services in Hampshire.

:41:45.:41:48.

The innovation that has taken place in Hampshire is astounding. The

:41:49.:41:52.

money that has been saved so it could be used in other front-line

:41:53.:41:57.

work has been brilliant. Let me take Winchester, Mr Speaker. Winchester

:41:58.:42:02.

has a brand-new fire station, brand-new fire station. On the first

:42:03.:42:08.

floor are the fire offices, on the next floor it is the police. It's a

:42:09.:42:11.

police station as well as a fire station. Over half of the fire

:42:12.:42:16.

stations in England and Wales are within one kilometre of an ambulance

:42:17.:42:20.

station or a police station. The sort of innovation that's happening

:42:21.:42:23.

there, we are starting to see around the country and that is what we

:42:24.:42:26.

should continue with. The Minister is right to commend the hard work of

:42:27.:42:30.

the police under very difficult circumstances. He asks for

:42:31.:42:35.

comparisons. Can I tell him that in Greater Manchester violent crime is

:42:36.:42:41.

up by 36%, sexual offences up by 46%, overall crime is up by 14%. We

:42:42.:42:49.

have had 20% fewer police officers and 4% fewer PCSOs and in the next

:42:50.:42:53.

financial year, we are looking at an ?8.5 million cut in real-terms

:42:54.:42:57.

funding. Those things don't add up, do they? What I would say to the

:42:58.:43:02.

honourable gentleman is that since 2010, crime has fallen in

:43:03.:43:05.

Manchester, like it has fallen across the rest of this country.

:43:06.:43:09.

There are real concerns about certain elements of crime. That's

:43:10.:43:14.

exactly what his own Chief Constable will be addressing like we are doing

:43:15.:43:19.

at the Home Office. I would actually ask him to look very carefully at

:43:20.:43:22.

the figures that he quotes. We have to be careful we do not scare people

:43:23.:43:28.

away. We want people to report sexual assaults. Historically, they

:43:29.:43:31.

haven't done that. We want them to report domestic violence.

:43:32.:43:33.

Historically, they haven't done that. Those are the sorts of

:43:34.:43:38.

offences that we need - if you look carefully at the offences - I will

:43:39.:43:42.

give way. The Minister makes a point give way. The Minister makes a point

:43:43.:43:48.

about people having confidence to report crime. In London we have seen

:43:49.:43:56.

a 21% increase in sex offences, but worryingly, in Southwark, last year,

:43:57.:43:59.

16% of those reported crimes resulted in a conviction. When will

:44:00.:44:05.

he stop insulting the hard-working officers and constituents in

:44:06.:44:08.

Southwark and ensure we have the resources to tackle crime properly

:44:09.:44:11.

and keep people safe and secure the prosecutions? I have never insulted

:44:12.:44:18.

an officer of anybody's constituency in my entire life, and I never will.

:44:19.:44:25.

I resent the comments that the honourable gentleman has just made.

:44:26.:44:29.

However, what would have happened in London if you had had a 10% cut -

:44:30.:44:33.

the honourable gentleman said it wouldn't have happen. That is what

:44:34.:44:38.

was proposed by his shadow front bench. I give way. I thank the

:44:39.:44:45.

Minister for giving way. I agree with the point that he was trying to

:44:46.:44:49.

make about the emergency services working together better. In my town,

:44:50.:44:54.

we have seen the removal of an ambulance station and our paramedics

:44:55.:44:57.

work out of the local police station. It is this collaborative

:44:58.:45:05.

approach that can deliver real savings. Mr Speaker, the sort of

:45:06.:45:14.

collaborative work that my honourable friend has touched on, we

:45:15.:45:17.

are seeing across the country. Some of it is being paid for by the

:45:18.:45:24.

Innovation Fund. It goes much further than that. It goes much

:45:25.:45:29.

further than working in the same station, but training together. You

:45:30.:45:35.

may know I used to be a fireman, many years ago. I may have told - I

:45:36.:45:41.

may have to mention it a few more times again. There are only two of

:45:42.:45:47.

us in this House. It was very, very rare to train with other emergency

:45:48.:45:50.

services unless you were physically on the job. If you go around your

:45:51.:45:56.

constituencies and ask the last time that they did a full exercise with

:45:57.:46:00.

the fire, the ambulance or the coastguard, it is rare. That's often

:46:01.:46:04.

logistical pressures. It is not the logistical pressure if you are in

:46:05.:46:08.

the same building, in the same yard. So we go back to Winchester, not

:46:09.:46:11.

only is the fire station and the police station in the same building,

:46:12.:46:16.

the yard is jointly used but in the back of there, they have the Armed

:46:17.:46:21.

Response Unit, all built on what was going to be just a fire station.

:46:22.:46:26.

Then you start talking to those brilliant professionals that look

:46:27.:46:28.

after us every day and ask them about what sort of training they are

:46:29.:46:33.

doing now. I met firefighters in Hampshire that are being trained as

:46:34.:46:39.

paramedics. Sadly, when you get something like a road traffic

:46:40.:46:42.

collision, Mr Speaker, the ambulances may not always get there

:46:43.:46:51.

first. I know how difficult it really was when we were at incidents

:46:52.:46:56.

like that, and it is not all to do with how many ambulances you have.

:46:57.:46:59.

If you have a really bad smash on the motorway, it is difficult to get

:47:00.:47:03.

the emergency services there. You would think everybody would get out

:47:04.:47:08.

of the way. But they don't. What is clearly happening is that we have

:47:09.:47:16.

fire personnel trained to keep people alive, not just first aid

:47:17.:47:22.

certificates, defibrillators - and that is a really good innovation.

:47:23.:47:29.

When you are at a major trauma, to have those skills that I saw firemen

:47:30.:47:34.

and women have in Hampshire, it is something I was crying out for when

:47:35.:47:37.

I was in the Fire Service. I give way. I'm very grateful. I want to

:47:38.:47:41.

take him back to the answer he gave me some moments ago. Of course, it

:47:42.:47:47.

is not my intention to scare people, those are the statistics, they are

:47:48.:47:52.

going up in Greater Manchester. And, of course, it may be in part down to

:47:53.:47:56.

people now reporting crimes that previously they didn't. Doesn't the

:47:57.:48:00.

Minister also accept that people have to have confidence that there

:48:01.:48:04.

are adequate numbers of police officers to be able to investigate

:48:05.:48:09.

those crimes and surely the 20% reduction in the number of police

:48:10.:48:12.

officers in Greater Manchester is not going to help with that public

:48:13.:48:18.

confidence? That really does depend as to where those officers were in

:48:19.:48:22.

the first place. Were those officers working in the communities and on

:48:23.:48:25.

the beat? Or were they doing desk jobs? The truth of the matter is,

:48:26.:48:30.

while we have had a decrease in officers around the country, there

:48:31.:48:33.

are more in front-line duties now than there was in 2010. And the

:48:34.:48:38.

other thing that the honourable gentleman might want to ask his

:48:39.:48:45.

local PPC, if he is really worried about the funding, b even -- even

:48:46.:48:52.

though he would have had a 10% cut from his own front bench - I give

:48:53.:48:58.

way. I thank the Minister for giving way. Can I plead to him and ask him

:48:59.:49:05.

to look urgently at the issue of the rise in gun crime in the West

:49:06.:49:10.

Midlands? Can I ask him to look at resources to try and fill that gap?

:49:11.:49:14.

We have had over 20 shootings in the last six months, including six over

:49:15.:49:19.

the bank holiday period. We have had 41 arrests, great work has been done

:49:20.:49:24.

by the West Midlands Police force, and 24 recoveries of weapons and

:49:25.:49:32.

ammunitions. This can only be done if we have officers - and this is a

:49:33.:49:35.

real serious issue over the last 12 years. In order to have that

:49:36.:49:39.

additional support, can you please look at that? Mr Speaker, I saw on

:49:40.:49:45.

the news the shootings and I get the reports across my desk as well. Our

:49:46.:49:48.

thoughts must be with the families of those. Whatever the reason. What

:49:49.:49:54.

is fantastic and we must praise the work of the local police is the

:49:55.:49:58.

arrests that are being made. Let's hope we get the prosecutions going

:49:59.:50:01.

forward after that. That is the crucial thing. Confidence with the

:50:02.:50:06.

public comes from the police actually getting prosecutions and

:50:07.:50:08.

then the Criminal Justice System... I give way to the lady. I thank the

:50:09.:50:14.

Minister for giving way. Like my colleague on my side of the benches,

:50:15.:50:19.

there is a terrible unsolved shooting in Wood Green from last

:50:20.:50:23.

summer where a drive-by shooting mistaken identity, a baker who was

:50:24.:50:28.

coming out for a break from his bakery, he was shot and the person

:50:29.:50:33.

has driven off, still unsolved. Can the Minister rule out that that has

:50:34.:50:36.

not got to do with the cut in police numbers? Mr Speaker, why anybody

:50:37.:50:41.

would get in a car and drive down and open a window and shoot someone

:50:42.:50:45.

is beyond me. And probably beyond the comprehension of anybody within

:50:46.:50:50.

this House. What we do know and what we do know is that the police forces

:50:51.:50:53.

around the country are doing a fantastic job. We have just heard of

:50:54.:50:58.

the arrests that have been taking place. To define - and to say that

:50:59.:51:04.

is because you cut the money, that is because you - that is a silly

:51:05.:51:14.

comment. I give way. People are suffering as a result of that.

:51:15.:51:17.

THE SPEAKER: Order. We need to be clear whose intervention is being

:51:18.:51:21.

taken. The honourable lady will have to express herself on another

:51:22.:51:26.

occasion. I'm grateful to the Minister for giving way. I have

:51:27.:51:31.

another tale of woe. There have been approximately 12 burglaries in ten

:51:32.:51:37.

days in the Saddleworth villages and I have some very worried

:51:38.:51:41.

constituents, so I totally agree with my honourable friend, you

:51:42.:51:46.

cannot possibly say that there isn't a link between the front-line cuts

:51:47.:51:52.

to staff at Greater Manchester Police, also mentioned by the member

:51:53.:51:56.

for Denton, so what will he say and what can he say to those

:51:57.:52:03.

constituents that many constituents that I have that have contacted me

:52:04.:52:08.

about their safety? That priority that the honourable lady refers to

:52:09.:52:12.

is why the Chancellor stood at this dispatch box and said we will make

:52:13.:52:18.

sure that we give the money, no-one dreamed we would get it, so the

:52:19.:52:22.

money would come through. There are no cuts going forward even though

:52:23.:52:25.

that is exactly what you would have had should you have had a Labour

:52:26.:52:29.

Minister standing here. I give way. I thank the Minister who is making a

:52:30.:52:35.

very strong case. Isn't it important that we trust the professionals in

:52:36.:52:46.

the police service? He will know that the terrible murders around

:52:47.:52:50.

Peterborough could not have been solved by Cambridgeshire

:52:51.:52:53.

constabulary alone. They had to work with other constabularies in order

:52:54.:52:57.

to have the critical mass, forensics and back-up work to solve those

:52:58.:53:01.

murders because we trust our local professional police officers. My

:53:02.:53:05.

honourable friend has touched on the point I was going to come on to,

:53:06.:53:10.

which is this collaboration point. Forces, the 43 forces around the

:53:11.:53:14.

country, not even London, with the size of London, can police alone.

:53:15.:53:20.

They need help across-the-board. In East Midlands, they are doing

:53:21.:53:26.

fantastic work and in my own region, the sorts of capabilities which

:53:27.:53:30.

would have always been done quite difficultly in a difficult way in

:53:31.:53:33.

local forces are now being spread across the situation. Mr Speaker, I

:53:34.:53:37.

have been called many things since I have been in this House, and before

:53:38.:53:43.

I came in this House, but "frit" is not one of them. I give way. He is

:53:44.:53:47.

saying a few things that are worrying me this afternoon. He just

:53:48.:53:51.

stood there a few moments ago and said, "No real-terms cuts to the

:53:52.:53:55.

police." That is simply untrue. I hope he will correct the record

:53:56.:53:59.

before this debate ends. That is simply untrue. The other thing he

:54:00.:54:03.

just said was that there are more officers in front-line positions.

:54:04.:54:06.

There was a workforce survey out last week that showed that his

:54:07.:54:11.

Government cut police officers by 18,000 in the last Parliament. Is he

:54:12.:54:15.

seriously standing there today and saying, despite that cut of 18,000,

:54:16.:54:19.

there are more police officers on our streets? Mr Speaker, I know the

:54:20.:54:23.

Labour Party are desperately trying to find a reason to vote against a

:54:24.:54:28.

very generous funding settlement, even though they would like to have

:54:29.:54:32.

made it a difficult settlement by cutting it by 10%. What I said,

:54:33.:54:36.

there are more operational police officers that are on duty now in the

:54:37.:54:39.

front-line than there was in the past. That is what I have said at

:54:40.:54:43.

this dispatch box time and time again. What we need to make sure, Mr

:54:44.:54:47.

Speaker, and ask the question - perhaps we will hear it from the

:54:48.:54:50.

Shadow Minister when we hear the arguments as to why there should

:54:51.:54:53.

have been greater cuts or cut - because we are not going to cut at

:54:54.:55:00.

all - cuts - what front-line services would have lost? I give

:55:01.:55:02.

way. There has been a lot of talk about

:55:03.:55:14.

cuts and also the horrific issue of crime, linked to that is the issue

:55:15.:55:19.

of counterterrorism and national security. Can the Minister confirm

:55:20.:55:23.

that this government will be increasing spending on tackling

:55:24.:55:29.

counterterrorism, so it shows our commitment to national security?

:55:30.:55:34.

I think my honourable friend is absolutely right. There is a

:55:35.:55:40.

separate way we fund CT and I think that is enormously important. We

:55:41.:55:43.

have a Minister of State 's Pacific Quay for that task. I think it is

:55:44.:55:51.

really interesting and even though I have heard from the opposition

:55:52.:55:53.

benches that this is terrible and this will happen, from the 43

:55:54.:55:59.

authorities they welcome the Chancellor's budget -- we have a

:56:00.:56:04.

specific Minister of State for that task.

:56:05.:56:10.

This is what it is about, a very generous settlement which we would

:56:11.:56:14.

not have had if we had not won the arguments with the Chancellor.

:56:15.:56:19.

I give way. I thank the Minister for giving way and I am slightly baffled

:56:20.:56:24.

by his comments. Northumbria Police expect to have lost around ?150

:56:25.:56:31.

million between 2010 and 2020 and its workforce has already been cut

:56:32.:56:37.

by a court, which is split equally between police officers and police

:56:38.:56:41.

staff. Could the Minister just clarify, in what way is that a

:56:42.:56:48.

generous settlement? Mr Speaker, to go over the arguments, we inherited

:56:49.:56:54.

a fiscal mess left by the previous Administration. We had to make

:56:55.:56:59.

really difficult financial decisions. The police forces did

:57:00.:57:03.

Bolelli well and were worried that would go on -- they did very well.

:57:04.:57:15.

Their front bench was going to do 10% cuts for policing. He giving

:57:16.:57:28.

way. To Mr Hammond? Thank you. I have been listening

:57:29.:57:33.

carefully to the police minister. I met with my local borough command

:57:34.:57:37.

last week. He said some challenges would make policing more effective.

:57:38.:57:42.

More botany he did stress that the number of police on the front line

:57:43.:57:48.

in the Met is as many as it has ever been -- more importantly. My

:57:49.:57:52.

honourable friend has actually brought me onto an interesting

:57:53.:57:56.

point. Last Friday, the Friday before last, I was at Hendon with

:57:57.:58:05.

the commissioner, taking the salute of the 135 new recruits coming

:58:06.:58:10.

through. Brand-new police officers wanting to join the Met coming

:58:11.:58:13.

through their training and on passing out parade. I think 60% live

:58:14.:58:22.

in London. This is because of the reforms the Commissioner has brought

:58:23.:58:25.

in saying you need to have lived in London for five years unless you

:58:26.:58:28.

have served in the Armed Forces. That figure will be boosted again. I

:58:29.:58:33.

was speaking to the officer in charge and he is expecting in excess

:58:34.:58:38.

of 2000 officers training at Hendon. We should be really proud of the

:58:39.:58:44.

numbers and I give way. The Minister has been very generous.

:58:45.:58:48.

We all know that one of the perennial problems of policing has

:58:49.:58:51.

been the amount of time that police officers have not been able to spend

:58:52.:58:55.

on the beat. Does the Minister agree that when good Police and Crime

:58:56.:59:00.

Commissioners use innovative technology to help those police

:59:01.:59:03.

officers spend more time on the beat, in places such as

:59:04.:59:07.

Staffordshire, it can mean as many as 100 extra police officers on the

:59:08.:59:13.

beat at a 10th of the cost? Mr Speaker, there is a myriad of

:59:14.:59:17.

different ways that we can give the confidence we need to our

:59:18.:59:20.

constituents with our uniformed officers out there and others from

:59:21.:59:24.

the community who are doing it as well. Can I pay tribute to our

:59:25.:59:29.

specials? They do not get mentioned as much as they should do. Our

:59:30.:59:34.

specials do a fantastic, fantastic job. We have to look carefully at

:59:35.:59:39.

certain parts of the country where the specials numbers have literally

:59:40.:59:42.

rocketed into their thousands whereas in other parts of the

:59:43.:59:47.

country we do not have as many as we would like. I will give way once

:59:48.:59:50.

more and then I will come to my final point.

:59:51.:59:55.

I am grateful. Would my honourable friend join me in congratulating the

:59:56.:00:00.

Conservative candidate in the Lincolnshire Police and crime

:00:01.:00:07.

Commissioner elections for introducing special constables,

:00:08.:00:08.

parish constables, who will look after the very remote rural areas of

:00:09.:00:15.

Lincolnshire, giving those communities a policing figure they

:00:16.:00:19.

know they can go to for help and advice, of somebody really to help

:00:20.:00:26.

rural communities? Mr Deputy Speaker, I spent quite a bit of time

:00:27.:00:31.

in Lincolnshire over the years, and was lobbied very extensively by the

:00:32.:00:38.

Chief Constable and the Commissioner for a change in the funding formula,

:00:39.:00:45.

to be fair. What I would say is the sort of innovation that we have seen

:00:46.:00:47.

in places like Lincolnshire with the in places like Lincolnshire with the

:00:48.:00:51.

parish specials and with rural mountain specials is the kind of

:00:52.:00:54.

thing we would like to see replicated.

:00:55.:01:00.

I will give way. In Lincolnshire, we are very grateful because this

:01:01.:01:03.

Minister has done more than any other minister to come up, spent

:01:04.:01:07.

days with the police force, and we very much appreciate what he has

:01:08.:01:11.

done with his grant. We have had a letter from the Chief Constable

:01:12.:01:16.

saying historic problems, increases in police salaries, national

:01:17.:01:20.

insurance contributions, he still has a significant funding deficit.

:01:21.:01:24.

Can the Minister say more about how he can help us, please? I know

:01:25.:01:30.

exactly what my honourable friend is saying, and I know exactly what is

:01:31.:01:34.

in the letter because I have had a very similar one. All I can say is

:01:35.:01:37.

what Lincolnshire were asking me to do, which a lot of constabularies

:01:38.:01:40.

and people in this House have asked is for a change in the funding

:01:41.:01:44.

formula to make it fairer for Lincolnshire. That is something we

:01:45.:01:48.

will continue to look at. This settlement is a not, not better than

:01:49.:01:51.

they thought they were going to get and a lot better than if there had

:01:52.:02:01.

been a Labour minister at the dispatch box.

:02:02.:02:03.

If I may, in relation to collaboration, with the Minister

:02:04.:02:05.

paid tribute to the work between Essex and Kent Police which looks at

:02:06.:02:07.

the intelligence sharing to ensure that the serious crime and organised

:02:08.:02:10.

crime in Newport County is also crime in Newport County is also

:02:11.:02:13.

dealt with swiftly and effectively? -- in the Port County. That type of

:02:14.:02:21.

work is so, so important. For too many years forces have sat in silos,

:02:22.:02:30.

individual emergency services have sat in silence. One reason they have

:02:31.:02:34.

come together is because of the austerity measures we had to bring

:02:35.:02:37.

in which has made them think out of the box. I thank the Minister. Can I

:02:38.:02:45.

just talk about the specific, first of all can I pay tribute to

:02:46.:02:49.

Cambridgeshire Constabulary for the excellent work they have done on

:02:50.:02:52.

issues around domestic violence and sexual offences. Isn't it the case,

:02:53.:02:58.

one of the reasons there has been a slight spike in those issues in

:02:59.:03:04.

crime reporting, is because many more victims feel comfortable about

:03:05.:03:07.

approaching the police now and feel they will be treated fairly in the

:03:08.:03:13.

pursuit of their complaints? Mr Speaker, my honourable friend has

:03:14.:03:16.

touched on a really important point. I had the honour the other week of

:03:17.:03:20.

continuing the funding for the victims groups around the country

:03:21.:03:23.

for the next three years. One of the things I think is really important

:03:24.:03:29.

is our constituents, no matter what has happened to them, have the

:03:30.:03:31.

confidence to come forward and they confidence to come forward and they

:03:32.:03:34.

will be listened to and there will be compassion when they come

:03:35.:03:38.

forward. For too many years, that was not the case. I know a lot of

:03:39.:03:41.

colleagues want to get in and I have been fairly generous, I would argue

:03:42.:03:47.

this afternoon, we need to make sure that our constituents are made aware

:03:48.:03:48.

of how generous this settlement is, of how generous this settlement is,

:03:49.:03:56.

for the next four years to 2020. It is still very difficult Financial

:03:57.:03:59.

Times, still times where we are continuing to pay for the amount of

:04:00.:04:06.

administration and finance of this country by the previous

:04:07.:04:08.

Administration and previous ministers who are now sitting on the

:04:09.:04:11.

Labour front bench. I am looking forward to listening to positive

:04:12.:04:15.

comments from our police force. I am enormously proud to be the police,

:04:16.:04:20.

fire, victims and criminal justice minister. It is a long title, a big

:04:21.:04:28.

job and I am delighted to have it. The question is as on the order

:04:29.:04:31.

paper. Jack Dromey. Mr Speaker, I bow to no one in my

:04:32.:04:35.

admiration for the police service. In the immortal words of Robert

:04:36.:04:39.

Peel, the police are the people and the people are the police. There has

:04:40.:04:44.

been a constant in our country for two centuries. The model for

:04:45.:04:50.

policing by consent that we built on when we were in government. When

:04:51.:04:53.

Labour left office, there were a record number of police on the

:04:54.:05:00.

streets, over 16,500 more than in 1997, and in addition, nearly 70,000

:05:01.:05:06.

PCSOs. We built neighbourhood policing, popular with the public.

:05:07.:05:12.

It worked, we saw a generation of progress on crime, local policing,

:05:13.:05:18.

local roots, local say, local partnership working. We built that

:05:19.:05:21.

which the public valued and it was one of Labour's greatest

:05:22.:05:26.

achievements. I give way. I thank the honourable gentleman. On the

:05:27.:05:30.

issue of bowing to know one, would he support the settlement today,

:05:31.:05:34.

rather than bowing to the Shadow Home Secretary's suggestion of a 10%

:05:35.:05:38.

cut? We will oppose this settlement today and I will tell you why. It is

:05:39.:05:43.

simply not true what has been said from this dispatch box, both by the

:05:44.:05:47.

Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Police Minister, that police funding

:05:48.:05:51.

is being protected and I will come to set that out in greater detail in

:05:52.:05:58.

due course. Mr Speaker, of course we are still learning sometimes painful

:05:59.:06:03.

lessons from the past. There are still wrong is to be righted. The

:06:04.:06:07.

police are not perfect. We need to raise standards and we should always

:06:08.:06:11.

hold the police to the highest standard in the public interest. The

:06:12.:06:15.

first thing I want to say to the police minister and the Home

:06:16.:06:20.

Secretary is the British model of policing, based on neighbourhood

:06:21.:06:25.

policing is celebrated worldwide. It was a model responsible for a

:06:26.:06:30.

generation of progress on crime. The Home Secretary's remorselessly

:06:31.:06:35.

negative tone about the police, taken together with ever fewer

:06:36.:06:41.

police officers doing evermore, has seen a tomorrow live police service

:06:42.:06:46.

with sickness and stress soaring. I give way. I am very grateful to my

:06:47.:06:50.

honourable friend and he is absolutely right to go back to

:06:51.:06:54.

Labour's success of neighbourhood policing. Is he as dismayed as I am,

:06:55.:07:00.

that what is happening in my own constituency, is that neighbourhood

:07:01.:07:03.

policing is being withered away and those offices are being put onto

:07:04.:07:09.

response, which is very necessary, but so is neighbourhood policing.

:07:10.:07:13.

That in itself is undermining public confidence in the ability of the

:07:14.:07:19.

police, to listen to the needs of communities. The honourable member

:07:20.:07:22.

was absolutely right. Typically, what you see over the country is a

:07:23.:07:25.

neighbourhood Sergeant responsible neighbourhood Sergeant responsible

:07:26.:07:29.

for making one or two or three teams with PCSO 's, and those who were

:07:30.:07:35.

previously police officers, of neighbourhood policing onto

:07:36.:07:37.

response. On the issue raised earlier on about more on the front

:07:38.:07:42.

line, that was posed a decision by the Home Office in 2012, that was a

:07:43.:07:47.

reclassification of some people on reclassification of some people on

:07:48.:07:54.

response to have local neighbourhood policing duties, even if it was the

:07:55.:07:57.

case that they spent all of their time on response. What was asserted

:07:58.:08:02.

here earlier on that there was more on the front line is simply not

:08:03.:08:07.

right. I will give way. I wonder if my honourable friend could comment

:08:08.:08:10.

on the fact that Humberside police is not the only police force to be

:08:11.:08:15.

judged inadequate, but we are at the lowest level of police officers

:08:16.:08:20.

since the 1970s. I wonder if the Shadow Minister could reflect on how

:08:21.:08:24.

that is for neighbourhood policing, what that actually means? The

:08:25.:08:28.

honourable lady absolutely right. If you look at some of the surveys

:08:29.:08:32.

what the public complained of is what the public complained of is

:08:33.:08:37.

lack of visibility of local police officers. Neighbourhood policing is

:08:38.:08:41.

absolutely key. It is not just about detecting criminals, it is about

:08:42.:08:46.

preventing crime, divert in people from crime, building good community

:08:47.:08:52.

relationships that bring people in, including to cooperate in

:08:53.:08:55.

identifying who criminals are and if you lose the benefits of

:08:56.:08:59.

neighbourhood policing at its most serious in relation to terrorist

:09:00.:09:03.

crime, it was the former head of counterterrorism who said

:09:04.:09:08.

neighbourhood policing is the golden thread that leads to the global.

:09:09.:09:14.

Patient policing with communities where they cooperate by identifying

:09:15.:09:18.

wrongdoing, and in this particular case, wrong doing of the worst

:09:19.:09:25.

possible kind. I will give way. Will my honourable friend also confirmed

:09:26.:09:29.

that this is not just about crime. When we have floods in our

:09:30.:09:32.

communities, the police are the first point of call. When we have

:09:33.:09:36.

public order parades, deeply is the first port of call. When we have

:09:37.:09:40.

football matches, the police are the first port of call. Policing is not

:09:41.:09:48.

just about crime. The honourable member is absolutely right. It is

:09:49.:09:52.

about the wider duties of the police service. The College of Policing has

:09:53.:09:57.

done some good work. By the way, the National Audit Office has called on

:09:58.:10:00.

Home Secretary to understand better what the police actually do, because

:10:01.:10:04.

it is not just about that element focused on crime, it is about the

:10:05.:10:08.

wider responsibilities. On the issues of the floods, it was the

:10:09.:10:12.

police together with the fire, ambulance and other services, the

:10:13.:10:16.

Environment Agency, who were guarding premises against being

:10:17.:10:20.

looted, for example in some parts of the country. I can use an example

:10:21.:10:25.

from last Saturday. I was deeply impressed to see the West Midlands

:10:26.:10:29.

Police service, together with other police services all coming together

:10:30.:10:36.

to police the pernicious attempt to march through Birmingham, keeping

:10:37.:10:42.

apart counted demonstrations and those who were there to support

:10:43.:10:47.

Pegeida, doing a tremendous job and doing it with the community. The

:10:48.:10:52.

honourable gentleman is absolutely right from his experience.

:10:53.:10:56.

He may have heard me ask the Minister to comment on the issue of

:10:57.:11:01.

burglaries in Saddleworth. There has been almost a 50% increase in

:11:02.:11:06.

burglaries and I wondered if he wanted, if my honourable friend

:11:07.:11:10.

wanted to comment on what the Minister said? There has been a

:11:11.:11:15.

reduction of 2,000 front-line posts - I have had this confirmed from

:11:16.:11:20.

Greater Manchester Police. The honourable lady makes a very

:11:21.:11:26.

powerful point because if you look at the statistics overall, areas of

:11:27.:11:30.

volume crime have gone down. I will come on in a moment to say it is not

:11:31.:11:33.

true what the Government says that crime is falling. Areas of volume of

:11:34.:11:37.

crime have gone down. Cars and houses by and large are more

:11:38.:11:40.

difficult now to break into. Having said that, there are spates of

:11:41.:11:45.

burglaries all over the country. And what is again key is good

:11:46.:11:48.

neighbourhood policing. Can I give an example from my own constituency?

:11:49.:11:56.

The admirable Sergeant Simon Hensely, he set up a canoeing club.

:11:57.:12:00.

There were hundreds of young people - I launched it in a canoe - it was

:12:01.:12:04.

one of the most terrifying moments since I became a Member of

:12:05.:12:07.

Parliament - hundreds of young people joined that club. Very good

:12:08.:12:12.

relationships were formed with them. And one benefit of that is that when

:12:13.:12:18.

it came to being an outbreak of burglaries, they came forward and

:12:19.:12:22.

said, "We think we know who the bad lads are." It is that neighbourhood

:12:23.:12:25.

policing, no substitute for neighbourhood policing, it's the

:12:26.:12:28.

bedrock of policing in our country. I give way. The honourable gentleman

:12:29.:12:38.

is making a fair point. It would be churlish not to accept there has

:12:39.:12:43.

been progress. Would he agree one of the legacies of the previous Labour

:12:44.:12:48.

Government was an inordinate amount of bureaucracy and paperwork which

:12:49.:12:52.

kept many front-line officers in the station processing data rather than

:12:53.:12:56.

out catching criminals? That is something that this Government has

:12:57.:13:02.

tackled which is why we have seen a reduction in recorded crime? We did

:13:03.:13:09.

prescribe too much too often. It is right by consensus across political

:13:10.:13:13.

parties that the last Government seems to be less prescriptive. There

:13:14.:13:17.

are certain things you will always prescribe. I don't disagree with the

:13:18.:13:20.

point being made by the honourable member. I thank my honourable friend

:13:21.:13:24.

for giving way. In relation to the neighbourhood police point that he

:13:25.:13:27.

was making earlier, does he agree with me that in relation to the very

:13:28.:13:32.

serious act of gun crime, neighbourhood policing is crucial in

:13:33.:13:37.

piecing together all the small bits of information which may bring a

:13:38.:13:42.

conviction forward? Would he assist me in some way to bring forward the

:13:43.:13:53.

tragic shooting that I mentioned earlier in Wood Green where this man

:13:54.:13:59.

was shot in a drive-by shooting and we would like to have that crime

:14:00.:14:04.

solved. It is difficult to comment on the detailed circumstances other

:14:05.:14:07.

than to say what you need is capacity to catch those guilty of

:14:08.:14:12.

murder. One of the most heinous crimes - forgive me if I say what I

:14:13.:14:17.

said in answer to a question just now - key to that is good

:14:18.:14:21.

neighbourhood policing. The evidence is that that's vital in terms of

:14:22.:14:25.

information and intelligence gathering and if you run down

:14:26.:14:28.

neighbourhood policing, the inevitable consequence is that you

:14:29.:14:31.

make it more difficult to detect criminals of that kind. I give way.

:14:32.:14:38.

I'm grateful. Neighbourhood policing is key. Will he agree with the

:14:39.:14:43.

commander who I met last Friday, who made the point that although the

:14:44.:14:51.

numbers of some of the neighbourhood units are down, they are more

:14:52.:14:56.

effective? On that point, it depends where you are talking about. For

:14:57.:14:59.

example in the West Midlands Police service, they sought to detain

:15:00.:15:04.

dedicated numbers in high-risk, high-demand areas. Taken as a whole,

:15:05.:15:08.

the numbers have been going down. So, there will be variances at any

:15:09.:15:11.

one point in time. The evidence is clear. There has been a remorseless

:15:12.:15:16.

reduction of the number of police officers and a hollowing out of

:15:17.:15:20.

neighbourhood policing. Now, I have given way about nine times. Can I

:15:21.:15:24.

make a bit more progress and then I will gladly give way to the

:15:25.:15:29.

honourable gentleman? Now, returning to where I was, what I want

:15:30.:15:35.

therefore to do today is to start by celebrating as the police bravery

:15:36.:15:40.

awards showed that we are policed by ordinary men and women doing

:15:41.:15:44.

extraordinary things often in the most difficult of circumstances. Mr

:15:45.:15:50.

Deputy Speaker, they deserve better than what happened inthe run-up to

:15:51.:15:55.

the Comprehensive Spending Review. Yesterday, I was privileged to speak

:15:56.:16:03.

at the 20th anniversary, together with Conservative Ministers, 20th

:16:04.:16:05.

anniversary of the Docklands bomb. I was talking to police officers after

:16:06.:16:14.

that. Brave men and women, outstanding dutied and the sense of

:16:15.:16:18.

obligation to their community. They talked to me about the mounting

:16:19.:16:23.

pressures that had been on them, the challenges of counter-terrorism, the

:16:24.:16:26.

impact of the last five years, and to be frank, they were absolutely

:16:27.:16:31.

dismayed that their Government had contemplated cutting the police

:16:32.:16:33.

service in half. As I will come to say in a moment, that is precisely

:16:34.:16:43.

what had been contemplated. In my constituency, I saw Police police

:16:44.:16:55.

comunt Police police -- Police Community Support Officers in tears.

:16:56.:17:01.

It should never have happened. After cutting 25% in the last Parliament,

:17:02.:17:08.

right up until the night before the Comprehensive Spending Review, the

:17:09.:17:12.

Government was contemplating a further 22% cut in this Parliament.

:17:13.:17:18.

The Home Secretary quite simply failing to stand up for the police

:17:19.:17:24.

service. We were on the brink of complete catastrophe, as a police

:17:25.:17:29.

officer said to me yesterday, which would have had very serious

:17:30.:17:33.

consequences. I have to say demonstrating a disregard for the

:17:34.:17:37.

first duty of any Government, which is the safety and security of its

:17:38.:17:42.

citizens. But under, Mr Deputy Speaker, under pressure from the

:17:43.:17:50.

public, from the police, and from the Labour Party, the Chancellor

:17:51.:17:55.

U-turned and a promise was made and I would like to read it. I think,

:17:56.:17:59.

quite clearly, the Police Minister has forgotten it. He said, "I am

:18:00.:18:04.

today announcing that there will be no cuts in the police budget at all.

:18:05.:18:09.

There will be real-term protection for police funding. The police

:18:10.:18:13.

protectors and we are going to protect the police." To make this

:18:14.:18:17.

point, in parallel, there were big cuts elsewhere for example to the

:18:18.:18:23.

Border Force, but let's examine that statement to the House. That

:18:24.:18:28.

statement, that promise to the public, to the police, and to

:18:29.:18:32.

Parliament has been broken. The Chancellor said he would protect the

:18:33.:18:38.

police but now we know that police budgets are still being cut. Take

:18:39.:18:43.

the force, take the force covering my constituency, the West Midlands

:18:44.:18:47.

Police service, an excellent police service, they are suffering in the

:18:48.:18:55.

next financial year a ?10.2 million cut in real terms, in real terms,

:18:56.:18:58.

contrary to what the Police Minister said earlier on, in real terms. Yes,

:18:59.:19:05.

they are using the ?5 mechanism, but it will raise but ?3.3 million, so

:19:06.:19:11.

?7 million cut overall in real terms. I give way. Does he agree

:19:12.:19:22.

specifically on the point about the pre-set, a force like Northumbria,

:19:23.:19:32.

under our excellent PCC, has had the lowest pre-set and has had to accept

:19:33.:19:36.

that ?5 maximum with great regret to try and maintain services? I totally

:19:37.:19:42.

agree with the honourable lady. Can I pay tribute to somebody who was a

:19:43.:19:46.

great parliamentarian, and she has been a great Police and Crime

:19:47.:19:53.

Commissioner. The work Vera Baird has done on domestic violence is

:19:54.:19:58.

admirable and first-class. And you are absolutely right, because as I

:19:59.:20:01.

will come to say later on, Northumbria is like the West

:20:02.:20:08.

Midlands, it has been hit twice as hard as leafy Tory shire police

:20:09.:20:11.

thank my honourable friend for thank my honourable friend for

:20:12.:20:14.

giving way. Will he also reflect and agree with me that some of our

:20:15.:20:19.

police forces are very stretched by the crime that they are dealing with

:20:20.:20:23.

at the moment, the Greater Manchester Police in Salford, we

:20:24.:20:29.

have had 19 shootings in a period of 20 months, very regular, some

:20:30.:20:32.

weekends, four shootings in the same day. This protection of the public

:20:33.:20:36.

issue is important. Why should our police force be so stretched in

:20:37.:20:39.

Greater Manchester when they have that to deal with? It is a real

:20:40.:20:48.

issue. 8.5 million cut in real terms, in real terms, contrary to

:20:49.:20:51.

what was said at this dispatch box. What we are seeing is profoundly

:20:52.:20:56.

worrying signs that after a generation of progress, despite the

:20:57.:21:00.

heroic efforts of the Police and Crime Commissioner, Tony Lloyd, and

:21:01.:21:03.

the Greater Manchester Police service, is crime is starting to

:21:04.:21:07.

rise once again. I give way. He is absolutely right to be pointing out

:21:08.:21:17.

this sleight of hand by the Government. The real unfairness is

:21:18.:21:21.

this. We have a relatively low council tax base, so the precept

:21:22.:21:26.

brings in relatively small amounts of funding. Nothing like the amounts

:21:27.:21:31.

of funding that have been cut by the central government grants. But added

:21:32.:21:35.

to that, they are the areas that tend to have the higher crime rates,

:21:36.:21:39.

so need is not matched by the resources. It is a double whammy for

:21:40.:21:46.

the urban areas and it really penalises places like Greater

:21:47.:21:49.

Manchester. The honourable gentleman puts it very powerfully. There is no

:21:50.:21:53.

question of it, but that need is not that which determines the way this

:21:54.:21:56.

Government allocates funds. Whether it is to the police service, or

:21:57.:21:59.

whether it is to local government. I will return to that point

:22:00.:22:07.

specifically later on. So, Mr Deputy Speaker, in relation then to broken

:22:08.:22:11.

promises, there was another broken promise. The Prime Minister said in

:22:12.:22:15.

2010 that he would protect the front-line - can I stress once

:22:16.:22:19.

again, not true - 12,000 front-line officers have since been lost. A

:22:20.:22:24.

broken promise. And to add insult to injury, not only are the Tories

:22:25.:22:28.

continuing to slash police funding, but they are expecting the public to

:22:29.:22:33.

pay more for it. The Tories' sums rely on local people being charged

:22:34.:22:39.

an extra ?369 million in council tax. To finish this point - our

:22:40.:22:44.

citizens therefore and our communities that we serve are being

:22:45.:22:48.

asked to pay more for less. I give way. In a forward-looking county

:22:49.:22:55.

like Hertfordshire, which has the pressures of supporting London and

:22:56.:22:59.

Luton, major roads to police, it's been possible through modern methods

:23:00.:23:05.

to use more police on the front-line, more modern methods and

:23:06.:23:09.

they are cutting the precept in Hertfordshire for the police and

:23:10.:23:13.

finding the funding settlement perfectly adequate. Every week I see

:23:14.:23:21.

innovation in the police service, of that there is no doubt. Could I take

:23:22.:23:25.

one point from what the honourable gentleman is saying? In relation to

:23:26.:23:29.

road policing, there are profoundly worrying signs that the progress

:23:30.:23:34.

that has been made over many years, particularly under the last Labour

:23:35.:23:40.

Government, in reducing road deaths, that progress is being reversed as a

:23:41.:23:48.

consequence of cutbacks. Innovation I'm in favour of. Greater

:23:49.:23:52.

collaboration, between the Police and Fire Service, likewise.

:23:53.:23:57.

Ultimately, there is a simple, grim reality. The remorseless downward

:23:58.:24:03.

pressure on our police service, the people who are paying the price are

:24:04.:24:06.

not just our police officers, but the public that we serve. Now, Mr

:24:07.:24:13.

Speaker, we - can I - all right. On the basis that I believe you are an

:24:14.:24:24.

old Macmillanite, I will give way. Wouldn't he agree with me that if

:24:25.:24:28.

you look around the country at the reserves that the police forces

:24:29.:24:32.

have, they are very substantial. In Hertfordshire, 48 million. Around

:24:33.:24:36.

the country, as high as 71 in one case. Well, I think, if I can put it

:24:37.:24:45.

this way, as we used to say in the T, that is a canard. Of course it

:24:46.:24:55.

is right that use should be made of reserves. Why are reserves built up?

:24:56.:25:02.

It ranges from investment in bringing together three or four

:25:03.:25:06.

buildings into one, like has been done in Birmingham for the West

:25:07.:25:11.

Midlands Police service, through better technological equipping of

:25:12.:25:16.

our police service, because we need a technological revolution in

:25:17.:25:17.

policing in Britain. Planning ahead because we need to

:25:18.:25:28.

recruit more police officers. So even if the overall numbers are

:25:29.:25:32.

falling, at least you are bringing in some fresh blood to the service.

:25:33.:25:37.

If you look at the various studies that have been done of the police

:25:38.:25:42.

reserves, including by the National Audit Office, it has never stood up

:25:43.:25:46.

this line that says, somehow, there are hundreds of millions there which

:25:47.:25:52.

only the -- which if only the police to used, all would be well. We are

:25:53.:25:57.

with the police when they say that efficiency savings can be made. For

:25:58.:26:03.

example, crucially, in the run-up to the last general election, we

:26:04.:26:08.

ourselves identified ?172 million that could be saved by mandated

:26:09.:26:14.

procurement alone. Taken together with other measures like, for

:26:15.:26:20.

example, full cost recovery on gun licences, ending this bizarre

:26:21.:26:24.

arrangement where the police have to subsidise the granting of gun

:26:25.:26:27.

licences, if that plan had been embraced by this government, we

:26:28.:26:33.

would have saved 10,000 police officers in the first three years of

:26:34.:26:40.

this Parliament. Now, efficiency savings are one thing. Ultimately,

:26:41.:26:45.

decisions have to be made, and we listened to the police, because in

:26:46.:26:49.

light of the tragic attacks in Paris, they said up to 5% efficiency

:26:50.:26:54.

savings, yes, we think we can make those. We identified ourselves how

:26:55.:27:02.

one could do that. It was clear beyond any doubt, the chilling

:27:03.:27:05.

message from the police who are so vital in maintaining our security,

:27:06.:27:11.

that to go beyond that would be to compromise public safety. The police

:27:12.:27:18.

said, and I will never forget, the very powerful letter from the head

:27:19.:27:27.

of counterterrorism, when he said, post-Paris now we have to look

:27:28.:27:30.

afresh. There was an exercise in government. Now we have to look

:27:31.:27:41.

afresh. Ultimately, numbers matter. Forgive me if I finish this very

:27:42.:27:46.

important point. Numbers matter. You need a surge capacity on the one

:27:47.:27:50.

hand in the light of an attack like Paris. You need neighbourhood

:27:51.:27:54.

policing by the way of intelligence gathering on the other hand, and you

:27:55.:27:59.

need more firearms officers. Indeed, we have got 6000 firearms officers,

:28:00.:28:06.

that is 1000 firearms officers, down from 2008. We listened to the

:28:07.:28:10.

police. I will give way to somebody who has not already spoken.

:28:11.:28:16.

I'm very grateful to the Shadow Minister for giving way. It is all

:28:17.:28:20.

well and good bandying numbers and saying we must have the ability of

:28:21.:28:24.

armed officers to make a surge, but if his party leader is to be

:28:25.:28:27.

believed, what are they going to do, just waved guns at people and say,

:28:28.:28:31.

please stop what you are doing with that would he take the opportunity

:28:32.:28:37.

to disassociate himself from his leader's remarks about what armed

:28:38.:28:42.

police can and cannot do? We all of us on this

:28:43.:28:56.

site have a very simple view. If I can draw a parallel with a deeply

:28:57.:29:00.

moving statement I heard one of those Parisien officers making, when

:29:01.:29:03.

he and his colleagues went into the Bataclan club. Innocent men and

:29:04.:29:05.

women, including British citizens, terrified by Joe practising the most

:29:06.:29:10.

appalling form of terrorism. He said, I had to make a split-second

:29:11.:29:17.

judgment. I made it. As a consequence, I saved lives. That is

:29:18.:29:21.

our very clear position. I will give way. I thank the Shadow Minister for

:29:22.:29:27.

giving way. I am slightly confused. He says savings can be made. The

:29:28.:29:32.

statement today includes a real term increase in anti-terrified and in,

:29:33.:29:38.

so why are the Labour party opposing this settlement? Because when

:29:39.:29:41.

announcements were made by the Government, after Paris, there was a

:29:42.:29:49.

series of announcements made. There was one which predated Paris but

:29:50.:29:51.

that was the investigatory Powers Bill. We said we support the broad

:29:52.:29:58.

approach of the Government, which says you need advanced means to

:29:59.:30:02.

combat those who use the .net. We support the Government who use more

:30:03.:30:12.

money for MI5, MI6, GCHQ. We supported the Government when it

:30:13.:30:15.

said there would be additional resources made available from the

:30:16.:30:19.

British Army for counterterrorism, but ultimately, it came down to

:30:20.:30:24.

this. If you listen to Chris Sims, the former Chief Constable of the

:30:25.:30:28.

West Midlands on the one hand, or on the other hand, to Bernard Hogan

:30:29.:30:32.

Howe here in London, they say a majority of the leads that lead us

:30:33.:30:39.

to detecting who terrorists are comes from good neighbourhood

:30:40.:30:43.

policing. If you have continuing downward pressure on neighbourhood

:30:44.:30:46.

policing, hollowing out of neighbourhood policing, in the words

:30:47.:30:52.

of Mark Rowley, it is the ayes and ears of counterterrorism effort. It

:30:53.:30:57.

is not enough simply to acquit the special services and special forces

:30:58.:31:01.

with additional powers, neighbourhood policing is important

:31:02.:31:06.

on every front and in particular on counterterrorism. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:31:07.:31:13.

the simple reality is neighbourhood policing will continue to be

:31:14.:31:18.

hollowed out. 18,000 officers have been lost since the current Prime

:31:19.:31:23.

Minister took office in 2010. 1300 have gone in the last six months

:31:24.:31:29.

alone. Today confirms that the Tory's back door cuts to police

:31:30.:31:33.

forces will inevitably lead to further police officer losses. Mr

:31:34.:31:39.

Deputy Speaker, it would appear that the Government is oblivious to the

:31:40.:31:44.

consequences of its actions. The former head of the Association of

:31:45.:31:47.

Chief Police Officers, as it was, Hugh Orde, was right when he said a

:31:48.:31:51.

generation of progress is being reversed. Police in the 21st century

:31:52.:31:59.

face in addition new challenges of terrorism, cyber crime, child sex

:32:00.:32:04.

exploitation and abuse. The threats undoubtedly to the British security

:32:05.:32:08.

in the 21st century demand a modernised, more responsive and

:32:09.:32:12.

better equipped police service, not a smaller one. And when the police

:32:13.:32:19.

minister said in defence of the Government's position, that crime is

:32:20.:32:25.

falling, not true. Crime is changing, and in July of this year,

:32:26.:32:30.

when we see the estimated 6 million cyber and online crimes included in

:32:31.:32:34.

the official statistics, we will see crime nylon double. Resources are

:32:35.:32:41.

diminishing, just when demand is soaring. Not just those triple

:32:42.:32:46.

challenges, but police recorded crime is rising, and some of the

:32:47.:32:50.

most serious crimes have soared to the highest level in years. A major

:32:51.:32:57.

increase in knife crime, up 9%. A 27% rise in violent crime, including

:32:58.:33:02.

a 14% increase in the murder rate, while sexual offences have gone up

:33:03.:33:08.

36%. Reported rape was the highest since 2003, and victims are being

:33:09.:33:20.

let down, with half of cases closed without a suspect being identified.

:33:21.:33:23.

And increasingly, the police are being left to pick up the pieces as

:33:24.:33:25.

are other public agencies are slashed. Who is it too goes after

:33:26.:33:29.

looked after children if you have social services departments in

:33:30.:33:33.

councils badly depleted? It seems to be the case... I will continue and

:33:34.:33:39.

conclude my remarks, because forgive me if I say it, I have been generous

:33:40.:33:45.

with interventions. I want to see the maximum time for contributions

:33:46.:33:49.

to be made in this important debate. The Home Secretary doesn't seem to

:33:50.:33:54.

understand the challenges to the modern police service, or the

:33:55.:33:58.

complexity of the modern police service, because despite his massive

:33:59.:34:01.

and growing challenges, not only are police budgets being cut, but the

:34:02.:34:08.

funding formula fiasco, in which the Home Office misallocated hundreds of

:34:09.:34:11.

millions of pounds of police funding, means that the doomed

:34:12.:34:15.

review of the unfair funding formula has been delayed for another year.

:34:16.:34:20.

That means a stopgap settlement of only a year. More uncertainty, more

:34:21.:34:25.

unfairness. My force, the West Midlands and Northumbria, both

:34:26.:34:32.

facing cuts which are double that, which Surrey receives. I spoke

:34:33.:34:37.

earlier when the honourable gentleman intervened. There was a

:34:38.:34:42.

second tradition, the tradition of Robert Peel but the second

:34:43.:34:54.

tradition, the tradition of Harold Macmillan, of noblesse oblige, of

:34:55.:35:02.

serving the nation. Quite frankly, in both this settlement and in the

:35:03.:35:06.

local government settlement that will be debated later, there has

:35:07.:35:11.

been a grotesque unfairness of approach where need has been ignored

:35:12.:35:15.

in favour of political heartlands being looked after. But in bringing

:35:16.:35:21.

my remarks to a conclusion, I would ask the Minister three questions.

:35:22.:35:28.

First, on unimportant detail, where exactly is the funding for the

:35:29.:35:31.

National International capital city Grant coming from? Why is it in the

:35:32.:35:38.

published information, not included in the core police settlement

:35:39.:35:42.

figure? Second, when will the Minister finally replace the broken

:35:43.:35:47.

funding formula and give forces the long-term certainty they need to

:35:48.:35:50.

modernise, and address the challenges of the 21st century? He

:35:51.:35:56.

expects to implement the new formula in the 1718 financial year. We will

:35:57.:36:00.

need a new formula by the end of this year at the latest. Will he

:36:01.:36:06.

begin to review the progress in that in the near future. And third, when

:36:07.:36:12.

will the Minister for policing stop this financial roller-coaster, and

:36:13.:36:16.

finally be frank about the public and the police about the cuts that

:36:17.:36:24.

he and the Home Secretary in pain -- intend to impose? In conclusion, yes

:36:25.:36:29.

we will vote against this police grant settlement, because for this

:36:30.:36:32.

side of the House, the first duty of any government, and of any

:36:33.:36:36.

parliament is the safety and security of its citizens. Yes, we

:36:37.:36:42.

will vote against, because that is what is at risk if we continue down

:36:43.:36:46.

this path of remorseless reduction in the number of police officers. Mr

:36:47.:36:53.

Deputy Speaker, quite simply, the time has come to put public safety

:36:54.:37:00.

first, and to cut crime, not cut cops.

:37:01.:37:05.

John Stevenson. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to say a few

:37:06.:37:10.

words about funding and the situation in Cumbria. Firstly there

:37:11.:37:17.

is the police budget we are discussing and the police funding

:37:18.:37:21.

formula which is for the future but of equal importance. Before saying

:37:22.:37:25.

anything specific, I would like to make one or two general

:37:26.:37:30.

observations. It is well documented that Carlyle and Cumbria experienced

:37:31.:37:34.

serious flooding prior to Christmas. This was a very large local

:37:35.:37:40.

emergency. I have to say the Cumbria Constabulary rose to that challenge

:37:41.:37:45.

brilliantly. They offered leadership in Cumbria, they offered practical

:37:46.:37:49.

support, there was the coordination of the emergency services and there

:37:50.:37:54.

was a lot of empathy. I met one PC who himself was flooded and instead

:37:55.:37:58.

of being at home, he was on duty helping everybody else. This

:37:59.:38:03.

demonstrated to me the importance of the police have over and above their

:38:04.:38:08.

normal duties. I would also like to pay tribute to the Cumbrian PCC

:38:09.:38:13.

Richard Rhodes. He has led Cumbria extremely well in a mature and

:38:14.:38:21.

professional way and he has wide support across the county. This

:38:22.:38:26.

demonstrates to me that the creation of the police crime Commissioners

:38:27.:38:29.

was the right one and I will be supporting their continuation. I

:38:30.:38:37.

will then turn to two issues, please funding in general. The House will

:38:38.:38:41.

recall the debate that was initiated by the opposition, calling for a 10%

:38:42.:38:47.

cut in police funding. I welcome the decision of the Government not to

:38:48.:38:52.

follow the opposition's lead but to maintain and increase funding for

:38:53.:38:59.

the police. We recognise there are still difficult financial

:39:00.:39:02.

circumstances. This will be welcomed in Cumbria and has certainly been

:39:03.:39:06.

welcomed by the Cumbrian Constabulary. We recognise the

:39:07.:39:10.

police are an important part of our society, they are the lead emergency

:39:11.:39:16.

service, and with concerns about security and safety, this funding

:39:17.:39:19.

will give confidence to our communities. The other important

:39:20.:39:23.

issues the police funding formula and I would refer back to my earlier

:39:24.:39:27.

comments. Floods brought home to me how important it is that we have a

:39:28.:39:33.

Cumbria police force. They offer leadership, local knowledge and an

:39:34.:39:36.

ability to respond which I'm not convinced would have been there if

:39:37.:39:43.

Cumbria had been part of a larger, Morimoto police force with

:39:44.:39:44.

headquarters elsewhere than in Cumbria. The funding formula would

:39:45.:39:53.

have a negative impact on Cumbria. My local newspaper recognised this

:39:54.:39:57.

and ran a campaign which attracted a huge amount of support, and it

:39:58.:40:02.

demonstrated again to me that support for a Cumbria police force

:40:03.:40:07.

was deep rooted. I was therefore delighted when the minister was in

:40:08.:40:10.

listening mode and took on board the potential problems and issues for

:40:11.:40:16.

places like Cumbria and agreed to postpone or pull-back from going

:40:17.:40:20.

forward with his consultation in introducing a new formula and I wait

:40:21.:40:25.

for the new consultation to come out. Therefore, I would take this

:40:26.:40:28.

opportunity to emphasise what the key issues are for my county, which

:40:29.:40:33.

are the morale of tea and sparsity. -- room relative. There are half a

:40:34.:40:39.

million people on Cumbria but if you superimposed them there would be 20

:40:40.:40:47.

million people. There is a large mountain range and we are long way

:40:48.:40:51.

from any other urban centre. Manchester is two hours away, even

:40:52.:40:58.

Newcastle is over an hour. I look forward to the consultation and I

:40:59.:41:02.

will certainly be participating in it. I would quite simply conclude by

:41:03.:41:08.

saying I give full support to the Government financing in the present

:41:09.:41:11.

settlement and I'm glad to see we are still the party of the police

:41:12.:41:17.

and the party of law and order. Keith Vaz. Thank you, it is a

:41:18.:41:21.

pleasure to follow the honourable member for Carlisle who has put some

:41:22.:41:25.

important points forward for discussion during this debate. He

:41:26.:41:30.

may claim his side is the party of police and Lauren order, but let's

:41:31.:41:33.

make this all party and we can all praise the work of the local police

:41:34.:41:38.

force, and all support the principles of the rule of law and

:41:39.:41:48.

law and order. I think that is something which will go across the

:41:49.:41:50.

whole house. The minister began by paying tribute to the appointment of

:41:51.:41:53.

the new sergeant Irv Arms who was formerly in the Ministry of Justice

:41:54.:41:56.

but has now taken his place in the House -- Serjeant at Arms.

:41:57.:42:02.

Not just because it is huge qualities, I welcome him, but also

:42:03.:42:09.

the first ethnic minority Serjeant at Arms in the history of

:42:10.:42:14.

Parliament. He was appointed absolutely on merit. Mr Deputy

:42:15.:42:20.

Speaker, as the Serjeant at Arms was not in place when I pay tribute

:42:21.:42:24.

earlier on, may I pay tribute again. Not only did I have the honour of

:42:25.:42:30.

giving him a reference for this job, he comes from one of the great

:42:31.:42:34.

regiments of the British Army. We will now have another tribute to the

:42:35.:42:39.

Serjeant at Arms from the shadow minister policing. I'm grateful now

:42:40.:42:43.

that the Serjeant of arms is in place, I was grateful to shake his

:42:44.:42:49.

hand the other day. These deeply welcome to the House, we welcome to

:42:50.:42:54.

have here. It is a long and honourable role in the House, like

:42:55.:43:00.

the right honourable member, I celebrate the first ethnic minority

:43:01.:43:06.

Serjeant at Arms. What I would say, there was plenty of time, everybody

:43:07.:43:11.

is welcome to him. It is the Policing Bill, we want to get

:43:12.:43:17.

through, we only have to forro three p.m.. Absolutely Mr Speaker, we move

:43:18.:43:29.

on. We move on to the debate on the Police Grant. I am pleased to see

:43:30.:43:35.

the honourable member in place, when he was police minister, funding was

:43:36.:43:42.

provided. The House voted in support of every one of emotions he put

:43:43.:43:46.

before the House when he was police Minister. It did provide additional

:43:47.:43:53.

funding. Can I pay tribute to my local police force? Tomorrow

:43:54.:43:58.

Leicestershire police force will celebrate their 180th anniversary at

:43:59.:44:03.

a ceremony in Leicester Cathedral and at the Guildhall. I want a page

:44:04.:44:09.

or be to my Chief Constable, Simon Cole, for the excellent work it

:44:10.:44:13.

does. And the police and crime commission. And to say how sorry I

:44:14.:44:23.

was that Sir Clive will be sent standing down, because he has made a

:44:24.:44:29.

superb effort and all-party basis to tackling crime in the local area.

:44:30.:44:33.

They make a great team. We need to acknowledge what happens at a local

:44:34.:44:38.

level. We are in parliament talking about global figures, but policing

:44:39.:44:42.

is about what happens to local people on the front line. Sitting on

:44:43.:44:46.

the Home Affairs Select Committee we are very conscious of that when we

:44:47.:44:51.

discuss the big issues. It is what happens at a local level which

:44:52.:44:55.

matters. As I have said to the minister before. The current police

:44:56.:45:01.

funding formula does mean that we are ?5.6 million a year less well

:45:02.:45:08.

off than other equivalent authorities, like, for example,

:45:09.:45:13.

Derbyshire. The police and crime commission has recommended an uplift

:45:14.:45:20.

to the maximum amount permissible, 1.90%. On behalf of my local area, I

:45:21.:45:27.

welcome the fact that there are no further cuts we can see in the

:45:28.:45:32.

figures that have been given. However, as has been said, there are

:45:33.:45:37.

17,000 fewer police officers stand there were when this government took

:45:38.:45:43.

office. This is a matter of concern. As the Minister knows, I said to

:45:44.:45:47.

them, I welcomed the fact he decided to tackle the issue of police

:45:48.:45:53.

funding. And to look at the issue of formula. He came before the House,

:45:54.:45:59.

in his own words, eating humble pie. Modest as always, recognising that

:46:00.:46:05.

the whole funding formula procedure was a bit of a shambles, as the

:46:06.:46:11.

select committee said in its report. I know the shadow minister would

:46:12.:46:14.

like to claim credit on behalf of the Labour Party,. In the government

:46:15.:46:20.

in its tracks, but he should remember the Home Affairs Select

:46:21.:46:24.

Committee conducted an enquiry into this, and one of our members is here

:46:25.:46:33.

the honourable lady for Louth and Horncastle. Following her assault on

:46:34.:46:39.

Julian Symons during pro Minister questions. I'm not saying he should

:46:40.:46:46.

take none of the credit. He is not a liberal Democrat, you doesn't have

:46:47.:46:49.

to take all the credit for these things. The select committee have

:46:50.:46:55.

hearings. We considered evidence, and we conducted the process was a

:46:56.:47:00.

shambles, and it needed to be looked at again. And it needed to be

:47:01.:47:09.

agreed, it took Devon and Cornwall, Andrew White, the Chief Executive,

:47:10.:47:13.

to tell the country where very senior and learn it and intelligent

:47:14.:47:19.

people in the Minister's apartment worth unable to tell us the formula

:47:20.:47:25.

was wrong. I rate to the Minister on the first ferry to ask him on an

:47:26.:47:30.

update on the consultation for the police funding formula. The process

:47:31.:47:36.

he began was actually very important. He agreed to consult. In

:47:37.:47:42.

the committee's report, we set out a process we thought he should follow.

:47:43.:47:46.

I know he doesn't respect the work of the select committee, he says so

:47:47.:47:54.

on a number of occasions. In our 10th recommendation, we even

:47:55.:47:58.

suggested a number of organisations that could be part of that process.

:47:59.:48:03.

He says to me, that he wrote to me yesterday. Actually, the letter has

:48:04.:48:10.

not arrived. When we discussed changes in policing, we talk about

:48:11.:48:15.

investment in IT, I wonder whether the private office of the Minister

:48:16.:48:19.

could invest in e-mail. E-mailing me the letter would be a very quick way

:48:20.:48:25.

of ensuring I had it before the debate. We all await and watch our

:48:26.:48:30.

e-mail at this moment, waiting for this letter which was supposed to be

:48:31.:48:36.

sent yesterday. I know he has a number of officials here today.

:48:37.:48:40.

Maybe that is why there is nobody in the office sending out e-mails. I

:48:41.:48:44.

would like to receive it so I can share it with other members of the

:48:45.:48:49.

committee. I hope it will tell us that the consultation process is

:48:50.:48:52.

about to begin. What we don't want to do is to run out of time on this

:48:53.:49:00.

process. I believe him when he says that he once the widest possible

:49:01.:49:05.

consultation. He is right, he met with me and every other member who

:49:06.:49:09.

came to see them. That is the right thing to do. Unless we start this

:49:10.:49:18.

process, consult with the Chiefs and the PCCs and the police chiefs

:49:19.:49:24.

Council, and other parties in this House, we will not get to a final

:49:25.:49:29.

conclusion. Maybe the letter will arrive before I finish speaking, we

:49:30.:49:33.

don't know, we would like to come as soon as possible. I thank my right

:49:34.:49:37.

honourable friend for giving way, making a very thoughtful and

:49:38.:49:41.

effective speech. I want to ask him, as part of the consultation, will

:49:42.:49:46.

they take on board the issue, which I raised with the front bench, that

:49:47.:49:52.

some police forces are peculiarly stretched by a local crime surge. In

:49:53.:49:56.

Salford we have suffered the issue of 21 shooting is taking place over

:49:57.:50:01.

18 months. The rolling out of neighbourhood policing, which I have

:50:02.:50:04.

seen and we have talked about in the debate is a very serious issue. The

:50:05.:50:08.

police have so much more to do because of a crime surge like we

:50:09.:50:11.

have seen in Salford, that should be addressed. My honourable friend is

:50:12.:50:17.

absolutely right, I have visited her constituency, I know these are

:50:18.:50:21.

important issues. At the end of the day we need to give the police the

:50:22.:50:25.

resources that they need, but these kind of issues have to be handled

:50:26.:50:28.

locally. It does need to be addressed and monitored. 1.I hope we

:50:29.:50:34.

will be able to cover, maybe the Minister can cover it in his closing

:50:35.:50:38.

remarks, the issue of the extension of the contract to the Mitch Garbutt

:50:39.:50:43.

Commissioner. It is really important we do not get into a position as we

:50:44.:50:49.

have with water cannon, Mr Deputy Speaker, where the Mayor of London

:50:50.:50:52.

waited a whole year for a decision to be made as to whether or not

:50:53.:50:59.

water cannon should be used. The Commissioner is set to appear before

:51:00.:51:04.

the select committee on the 23rd at the very few discuss this and other

:51:05.:51:14.

matters. -- 23rd of February. I hope he is able to meet with the Mayor of

:51:15.:51:17.

London to give some sort of indication, because that sort of

:51:18.:51:23.

security at the top of the Met, which represents one fifth of

:51:24.:51:26.

policing in our country, in budgets, it is really important. I hope that

:51:27.:51:32.

will remind the Minister that these decisions need to be made, in the

:51:33.:51:39.

interests of policing is a whole, the commission and Parliament. Two

:51:40.:51:45.

final points I would like to raise. The first is the wider issue, of

:51:46.:51:50.

what exactly we want the police to do. One of the recommendations we

:51:51.:51:56.

made in our report, what are the drivers of crime and police demand?

:51:57.:52:02.

Of course we live in tough times. The government of course will blame

:52:03.:52:07.

the opposition for what it did when it was in government. The issue

:52:08.:52:11.

remains, resources are always going to be something Parliament and the

:52:12.:52:15.

government is going to look at very carefully. I think the police

:52:16.:52:20.

service needs to know exactly what the government is prepared to fund.

:52:21.:52:25.

Is it more work, as far as immigration is concerned? We see

:52:26.:52:30.

police officers acting nowadays as if they were immigration officers,

:52:31.:52:34.

because they deal with so much of these issues. And they did not deal

:52:35.:52:41.

with previously. The Minister knows the House knows the number of cases

:52:42.:52:46.

that get to the custody suite, because those who are there are

:52:47.:52:50.

actually suffering from mental illnesses, and should not be there

:52:51.:52:54.

in the first place. Police officers are being used as social workers. We

:52:55.:52:58.

know meetings with local authorities and others, "Ree is take up a whole

:52:59.:53:08.

lot of time. When we begin the consultation on police funding and

:53:09.:53:12.

the formula, the Minister needs to tell police forces exactly what the

:53:13.:53:16.

government is prepared to fund. I know the government has turned its

:53:17.:53:23.

nose up at the idea of a Royal commission. The committee favoured

:53:24.:53:27.

this in the last Parliament. We do need to look at what we want our

:53:28.:53:31.

police officers to do, they cannot do everything. At the moment they

:53:32.:53:38.

are doing everything. The appointees making, sometimes we over rely on

:53:39.:53:41.

our police for a lot of things stop controversy in my constituency

:53:42.:53:45.

because the police were not able to police the Armistice Day March. When

:53:46.:53:50.

it came to get there were plenty of local councillors and volunteers who

:53:51.:53:54.

were able to do that, without using the police resources, it was a great

:53:55.:53:59.

success. She is absolutely right, there are other people who can step

:54:00.:54:03.

in. Those of us who are supporters of football clubs, including

:54:04.:54:08.

Leicester City, currently the premises leader, when we go to these

:54:09.:54:14.

football matches, we see a lot of police officers on duty. Part of

:54:15.:54:23.

that could be policed by stewards, who are not warranted officers. You

:54:24.:54:26.

don't need warranted officers to do everything. The honourable lady is

:54:27.:54:32.

absolutely right. The Minister has a real opportunity this year to set

:54:33.:54:36.

his mark on the history of policing. Because he was prepared to tackle

:54:37.:54:45.

the issue of the police funding formula, and get the brickbats you

:54:46.:54:52.

do when you are dealing with vested interests, but he set out principles

:54:53.:54:55.

and a model which can stay for a generation. To do that, you must

:54:56.:55:00.

consult, and begin the consultation immediately. I'm very grateful for

:55:01.:55:10.

the opportunity to add my comments to this important debate. The local

:55:11.:55:17.

policing subject is one I feel very strongly and have a very great

:55:18.:55:20.

interest. Policing and crime rates are great concern to my constituents

:55:21.:55:27.

and all of ours. I get letters from constituents asking what this

:55:28.:55:29.

government is doing to help bring down crime rates. I welcome the

:55:30.:55:34.

reduction in crime over the last years. But recognise the need to

:55:35.:55:41.

make savings, and I commend the Home Office for the very tough decisions

:55:42.:55:43.

they have taken over the course of the last Parliament. I want to

:55:44.:55:49.

express my huge welcome for the announcement in the Autumn Statement

:55:50.:55:57.

that we will keep policing on a stable footing.

:55:58.:56:04.

In particular, in conjunction with the flexibility given around the

:56:05.:56:10.

precept, especially for those with the lowest precepts in the country

:56:11.:56:17.

such as Essex. Given my constituents' natural concerns

:56:18.:56:20.

around crime rates, I took it upon myself to a role in the police

:56:21.:56:24.

Parliamentary scheme, which I would strongly recommend to all honourable

:56:25.:56:28.

members. It is quite a time commitment, it is 20 days at least

:56:29.:56:32.

in different parts of the force, but it has given me a very strong and

:56:33.:56:35.

valuable insight into the true pressures of the police, the changes

:56:36.:56:42.

and innovations they need to bring in and are bringing in. I would like

:56:43.:56:47.

to put on record my enormous gratitude to Chief Inspector Stephen

:56:48.:56:50.

Kavanagh and all of those who I went out with who made me feel extremely

:56:51.:56:53.

welcome and have been extremely supportive. I have had some

:56:54.:56:58.

extraordinary opportunities on this scheme. I have been with the Juno

:56:59.:57:05.

teams tackling domestic silence and seen how enormously the police

:57:06.:57:08.

approach has taken to domestic violence and how quickly they have

:57:09.:57:13.

adopted or example the new stalking legislation we brought in, and how

:57:14.:57:17.

focused they are on that, which is part of their approach to the hidden

:57:18.:57:24.

harms. I will give way. Has my honourable friend also learned of

:57:25.:57:31.

the welcome with which police officers are bringing on the

:57:32.:57:36.

introduction of on body cameras, because one of the great hopes for

:57:37.:57:42.

those cameras is it will greatly assist persecuting domestic violence

:57:43.:57:47.

cases. Absolutely, I have seen them in action which they can use when

:57:48.:57:52.

they have been called to a domestic dispute and they will then have

:57:53.:57:55.

evidence they arrive of their own which they can use in court, for

:57:56.:58:01.

example, in situations where the victim of domestic violence is

:58:02.:58:04.

nervous or reluctant to come forward and they can prosecute on her

:58:05.:58:09.

behalf. It does rely on our police remembering to turn them on so they

:58:10.:58:14.

are doing good training on that! The police themselves are very pleased

:58:15.:58:19.

to have it. I should also say I have visited a custody suite and

:58:20.:58:28.

honourable member will understand my reluctance for being photographed

:58:29.:58:31.

anywhere near the cells! I see the pressures they have their and is not

:58:32.:58:39.

without difficulties to modernise to new technology. I have also been out

:58:40.:58:44.

with CID and seen the forensic labs. Most of all, I also went to a drug

:58:45.:58:51.

factory which was very interesting. I went to a cannabis factory. It is

:58:52.:58:59.

not often a member of Parliament goes to a cannabis factory. I have

:59:00.:59:03.

also looked at how they deal with the problem of modern day slavery

:59:04.:59:13.

and the sensitivity about how they approach to the gardener is, person

:59:14.:59:16.

who is often left without real means of escape. There are big changes to

:59:17.:59:25.

the way our police are policing and they are standing up to the

:59:26.:59:30.

challenge in what is a difficult funding circumstance. What has

:59:31.:59:34.

overwhelmingly struck me is the sheer commitment and dedication to

:59:35.:59:39.

our police officers. I definitely expected professionalism but I did

:59:40.:59:43.

not expect how passionate they are about their work and to the extent

:59:44.:59:47.

they care about the communities they serve. I want on record my thanks to

:59:48.:59:53.

them and to Stephen Kavanagh for the scheme and do do it. Essex police,

:59:54.:00:00.

whose motto is sworn to serve, has long been an efficient force. I

:00:01.:00:05.

could wax lyrical about this for a long time. It is a very long and

:00:06.:00:14.

honourable and proud constabulary. Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of

:00:15.:00:18.

Constabulary have repeatedly found that Essex police provides better

:00:19.:00:22.

value for money than other police forces. They have a deep programme

:00:23.:00:31.

of collaboration with Kent Police as was mentioned earlier, and

:00:32.:00:34.

collaborating with other forces in the East of England. Wales have one

:00:35.:00:37.

of the lowest reserves in the country so did not have the option

:00:38.:00:42.

to absorb extra pressures and costs by reducing their reserves. The fact

:00:43.:00:46.

they have been able to be successful in what their doom exit all the more

:00:47.:00:50.

remarkable. They continue to look for efficiencies to make sure public

:00:51.:00:54.

money is spent on keeping the public safe. I thank my honourable friend

:00:55.:01:01.

for giving way and she has made an effective point about her local

:01:02.:01:06.

police force and I intend if I get called to speak later, I will say

:01:07.:01:09.

there are similar efficiencies in Lancashire Police. Would she join me

:01:10.:01:14.

in welcoming the ?55 million through the police innovation fund which

:01:15.:01:19.

will continue to allow forces to modernise and create greater

:01:20.:01:21.

efficiencies in the way they operate? I absolutely welcome the

:01:22.:01:27.

announcement and I recognise the funds. There is a lot going on

:01:28.:01:31.

already but it does cost money to modernise and make improvements.

:01:32.:01:36.

While I would not wish we were in the situation where we have such an

:01:37.:01:40.

enormous debt on this country, but in a strange way the drive to create

:01:41.:01:45.

efficiencies, will alternate, when our economy is back on an even keel

:01:46.:01:49.

and the money is flowing in again, we will have an enormously efficient

:01:50.:01:55.

police force in the future, and old practices which have been stuck in

:01:56.:01:58.

their way for many years will have been ironed out.

:01:59.:02:04.

I'm grateful to the honourable lady for giving way. On that point, would

:02:05.:02:08.

she agree part of that innovation and making our police forces more

:02:09.:02:11.

efficient has been the introduction of police commissioners? I wish to

:02:12.:02:18.

come onto that later because I think the innovation of police

:02:19.:02:20.

commissioners has been an enormous achievement of the last Parliament.

:02:21.:02:26.

My police and crime commission has been enormously visible, much more

:02:27.:02:35.

visible than the old ones who people did not realise existed -- police

:02:36.:02:41.

and crime commission. Essex police do remain keen to see a review of

:02:42.:02:47.

the funding formula. The changes to the formula which were previously

:02:48.:02:51.

imposed on last year would see funding to the police increased by

:02:52.:02:55.

10 million, so we are hopeful that a review later this year will increase

:02:56.:03:00.

the amount of central funding for Essex. Essex police is an area with

:03:01.:03:07.

historically low policing precepts. They have been very proud and say

:03:08.:03:13.

they have been a lean and efficient force for a long time. I recently

:03:14.:03:17.

surveyed by residents asking them if they would be prepared to pay extra

:03:18.:03:24.

if it meant police officers -- extra police officers and visibility. The

:03:25.:03:27.

result was overwhelmingly positive. However, because of the rules around

:03:28.:03:34.

how they would be able to put across their case in a referendum and that

:03:35.:03:38.

a referendum would be triggered by a rise of 2% or higher, there was a

:03:39.:03:42.

real concern in Essex with such a low precepts, that we would be only

:03:43.:03:52.

be able to go to 1.99%, thereby a disadvantage for the lower cost

:03:53.:03:56.

forces then the more expensive ones. I'm grateful that this point was

:03:57.:04:00.

listened to by the Chancellor and the Home Office and the governor is

:04:01.:04:05.

looking at sex ability for Police and Crime Commissioners in the

:04:06.:04:07.

lowest precepts for raising their precept. This has made it possible

:04:08.:04:15.

in Essex to raise the base budget for Essex police by 3.8 million to

:04:16.:04:22.

two point 266 million for this year. I think it is right that forces with

:04:23.:04:30.

the lowest precept raise their precept locally rather than just

:04:31.:04:34.

call on central government and national resources to get other

:04:35.:04:38.

members of the public, who are maybe already paying a higher price, to

:04:39.:04:44.

fund it through a greater grant allocation. I think it is understood

:04:45.:04:47.

by local residents. The current budget includes increased investment

:04:48.:04:54.

in specialist police officers and police staff to tackle child sexual

:04:55.:04:59.

exploitation, child abuse, serious sexual offences and domestic abuse.

:05:00.:05:04.

There will also be increased investor three capacity to tackle

:05:05.:05:08.

these horrible crimes and increased support and safeguarding for

:05:09.:05:12.

victims. These are the hidden harm is that we did not use to talk about

:05:13.:05:16.

or recognising the same way. It has been said a way that some of the

:05:17.:05:21.

figures for domestic abuse and other hidden harms and child abuse have

:05:22.:05:26.

been rising and have contributed to the rising of violent crime in some

:05:27.:05:31.

cases. I would maintain that these are not arise in these crimes, it is

:05:32.:05:36.

the confidence of people coming forward to report them, knowing they

:05:37.:05:40.

will be dealt with sympathetically and a different approach the police

:05:41.:05:44.

have been taking and how to deal with these issues. My honourable

:05:45.:05:51.

friend said about the cameras and other changes in legislation which

:05:52.:05:54.

have been brought in. Within the sick list in budget, there will also

:05:55.:05:59.

be greater support and investment in the training needed to equip

:06:00.:06:06.

officers to investigate Internet and cyber crime which are affecting

:06:07.:06:12.

businesses across the country. While I welcome very much the Autumn

:06:13.:06:15.

Statement and this funding review which will enable Essex police to

:06:16.:06:20.

keep more of the PCSOs than they planned, and the innovations they

:06:21.:06:24.

are able to bring in, I would just like to end and say how lucky we

:06:25.:06:29.

have been in Essex to be served by such a fantastic police and crime

:06:30.:06:35.

commission. He is the best police and crime commission in the country.

:06:36.:06:47.

He has served as an inaugural Police and Crime Commissioner. He is far

:06:48.:06:57.

from being a faceless person, his name is incredibly well-known. I

:06:58.:07:01.

have only been able to accept his resignation on the basis that we

:07:02.:07:08.

have the highly able Roger Hurst who will be standing as the candidate

:07:09.:07:12.

for the Conservative Party. I'm sorry, you will have to sit down for

:07:13.:07:19.

a second. I allowed you to have a roared spit at the beginning --

:07:20.:07:33.

abroad split at the beginning but I think we are in danger of getting

:07:34.:07:37.

into electioneering and campaigning. I am sorry. I'm pleased that the

:07:38.:07:44.

police spending has been protected and I very much welcome this motion

:07:45.:07:49.

today. David Hanson. Thank you, Mr Deputy

:07:50.:07:57.

Speaker, and I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute to the

:07:58.:08:00.

debate. Can I'll so welcomed the Sergeant at Arms. We served in the

:08:01.:08:03.

Ministry of Justice many years ago and I welcome his present today. The

:08:04.:08:08.

main debate today is about the police grant and it was an issue

:08:09.:08:13.

that the police minister himself did skirt around. He talked about a

:08:14.:08:18.

range of issues about rationalisation, to do with how we

:08:19.:08:23.

can get better efficiency in our police services, but he avoided the

:08:24.:08:26.

question about the level of police funding that the Government are

:08:27.:08:30.

committed to for the next few years. But let me not start on a negative

:08:31.:08:35.

note, let me start on a positive note. I share with him, and for the

:08:36.:08:41.

member for Castle Point, my admiration for the work of the

:08:42.:08:45.

police and the professionalism of the police service, they do a

:08:46.:08:48.

marvellous job, and we should never forget, I know my honourable friend

:08:49.:08:54.

from Wirral West will notice that every day the police put their lives

:08:55.:08:59.

on the line every day they walk out. Had the recent loss of an officer in

:09:00.:09:02.

Merseyside, and anyone who has been like I have, and the Minister for

:09:03.:09:08.

Erdington has been to the police Memorial Day, will know that the

:09:09.:09:11.

police did a great job and do put their lives on the line every day.

:09:12.:09:17.

The debate today is about the level of financial support to the police

:09:18.:09:19.

service across England and Wales. It is quite clear that that level of

:09:20.:09:25.

support is not sufficient to meet the needs of the police service in

:09:26.:09:31.

the next few years. Nobody will deny that crime has fallen in certain key

:09:32.:09:40.

areas, and no one will do my -- deny that police are trying to reduce

:09:41.:09:44.

those levels in key areas, but I think this debate has missed one of

:09:45.:09:47.

the key points in the question of police, but that losing is not just

:09:48.:09:51.

about crime, it is not about the level of crime and the level of how

:09:52.:09:57.

it can fall or otherwise. The member for Carlisle put his finger very

:09:58.:10:01.

much on it in relation to the difficult circumstances he has had

:10:02.:10:05.

recently, in Cumbria with flooding. The police are the first port of

:10:06.:10:16.

call on public order offence. -- events. On road accidents, on deaths

:10:17.:10:22.

in our community and houses, the police are the first port of call.

:10:23.:10:27.

On public order offence such as football matches or other things

:10:28.:10:30.

such as the parades we have talked about, the police are the first port

:10:31.:10:39.

of call. And because, not always, at weekends the social services and

:10:40.:10:43.

health service are not operational, the police are the first port of

:10:44.:10:44.

call 24 hours a day. The important point that my

:10:45.:10:54.

honourable friend made, the police server reassurance. There are bad

:10:55.:11:00.

visibility, evidence collecting. Not just about solving crime. My worry,

:11:01.:11:06.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the level of settlement we have today will put

:11:07.:11:12.

that level of service at risk. Nobody can deny the service is under

:11:13.:11:18.

pressure. I happen to live in a relatively low crime area in Wales.

:11:19.:11:25.

The police do a great job. I met with the Chief inspector last week,

:11:26.:11:29.

they are doing a great job, crime is relatively low. The budget they are

:11:30.:11:34.

facing is putting complete pressure on the service. Important we examine

:11:35.:11:38.

that, in terms of what the Minister has said, rather than duck around

:11:39.:11:44.

the issues, as he did today. Clearly this government has a small state

:11:45.:11:49.

Conservative view of the world, we have seen that in local government,

:11:50.:11:53.

radically changed by the settlements this week. Does he agree with me

:11:54.:11:59.

that what the average member of the public wants, is the reassurance and

:12:00.:12:04.

police in their communities. What has been proposed in this small

:12:05.:12:09.

state Conservative view of the world is not what voters want? Certainly

:12:10.:12:14.

the constituents of North Wales, and I'm sure the same is true in Durham,

:12:15.:12:19.

they want to see others of all police force engaging with them

:12:20.:12:25.

locally, working locally, providing reassurance, as well as solving and

:12:26.:12:29.

preventing crime. It is extremely important, which the Minister has

:12:30.:12:34.

missed, in relation to the focus on crime fully in certain areas. The

:12:35.:12:40.

question is, the police service is much more than solving crime. I

:12:41.:12:45.

thank my honourable friend for giving way committee is making some

:12:46.:12:48.

very effective point. I have said before in this debate, the issues of

:12:49.:12:54.

gun crime we have in greater Manchester, that is not going to be

:12:55.:12:57.

solved in anyway apart from neighbourhood policing. Sir Peter

:12:58.:13:06.

far a said before he left his post, we need relationship building so

:13:07.:13:11.

people are confident coming forward and giving information to the

:13:12.:13:14.

police, without which they cannot solve the crime -- Peter Fahey. What

:13:15.:13:32.

she's indicating is it is not just about high-level policing, it is

:13:33.:13:37.

about community intelligence, reassuring, and having people know

:13:38.:13:40.

that immunity is, working at a local level. The Minister made very plain,

:13:41.:13:48.

nobody denies we can make the service more efficient, sharing

:13:49.:13:51.

buildings. Absolutely right, we should be doing that. He knows about

:13:52.:13:56.

the contracts, the vehicle contracts, we should be doing that

:13:57.:14:00.

to save money. We should be looking at reforming those measures. The

:14:01.:14:05.

bottom line is they are not compensating for a long-term

:14:06.:14:07.

reduction in the amount of central government grants for local police

:14:08.:14:15.

forces. My own police force in North Wales has made efficiency savings of

:14:16.:14:18.

?19.65 million over the last four years. That is not compensated for

:14:19.:14:23.

the loss of grants they have received. The central point I wish

:14:24.:14:33.

to put the Minister to, the central government grant is being

:14:34.:14:38.

compensated for five rises in the preset in the local level. We have

:14:39.:14:43.

seen a grand reduction of 18% over a four period. We have seen a 14.5%

:14:44.:14:52.

rise in the preset. My constituents are playing more -- paying more in

:14:53.:14:59.

local taxes while they are losing more services. The poorest areas

:15:00.:15:05.

don't have the council tax base to raise that level of resource, as do

:15:06.:15:10.

the rich areas. A one or to macro percent rise in the constituency

:15:11.:15:16.

area where we stand in Westminster will raise a hell of a lot more than

:15:17.:15:21.

a one or to macro percent rise in a community such as North Wales. When

:15:22.:15:26.

the grant is cut to forces like North Wales, and they raise the

:15:27.:15:31.

local precept, my constituents are paying more locally for a service

:15:32.:15:37.

which should be provided as part of the National Service they richer

:15:38.:15:39.

areas contribute to crime level reductions in poorer areas. Or

:15:40.:15:44.

indeed in areas with higher levels of crime. Really important the

:15:45.:15:50.

Minister recognises that. Not simply a case of reducing the amount of

:15:51.:15:54.

grant, hoping we can raise the local precept. It is about having a fair

:15:55.:16:01.

settlement, meeting the needs of the poorest amenities, and the areas

:16:02.:16:05.

where there are higher levels of crime. It is important that we do

:16:06.:16:12.

place on record, that the last Labour government did have 18,000

:16:13.:16:14.

more police officers than we currently have. Crime levels have

:16:15.:16:18.

consistently fallen during the Labour government. If we can look

:16:19.:16:24.

again in the next 3-4 years, while the Minister holds the office, is

:16:25.:16:30.

how we respond. Yes, on the efficiency agenda, and the central

:16:31.:16:33.

government grant agenda, he will do a great deal to reduce levels of

:16:34.:16:39.

crime, and help build reassurance. He has mentioned crime, and crime

:16:40.:16:44.

falling. I have to agree with my honourable friend for Birmingham,

:16:45.:16:49.

violent crime has risen by 27% in the last year. Victim outcomes for

:16:50.:16:56.

half of offences during 2014-15 were closed without a single suspect

:16:57.:17:00.

being identified. Hate crime is beginning to rise. Sexual offences

:17:01.:17:08.

are starting to rise. Also reporting sexual offences historically is

:17:09.:17:15.

beginning to rise. Violence against women is rising. I accept car crime

:17:16.:17:21.

is falling, shoplifting is falling, other forms of crime is falling, I'm

:17:22.:17:29.

pleased to see me want to use drive down continued levels of crime. The

:17:30.:17:33.

Minister cannot avoid the fact that the funding settlement he has got, a

:17:34.:17:39.

very big standstill for some authorities, and a massive cuts,

:17:40.:17:43.

particularly for those authorities with the highest levels of crime,

:17:44.:17:46.

the highest level of challenge, and the lowest level of council tax base

:17:47.:17:54.

to draw the resources accordingly. My plea to the minister today is

:17:55.:17:59.

simply to say to him, he sounds a little complacent, that all will be

:18:00.:18:03.

well, because crime has fallen, and forces are managing. I say drive the

:18:04.:18:09.

efficiency forward even further, even maybe look at some of the

:18:10.:18:14.

larger issues at least forces. Some of the voluntary mergers we have

:18:15.:18:18.

tried to encourage in the past. Drive efficiency forward, but do not

:18:19.:18:22.

pass on central government grant cuts to local areas that cannot meet

:18:23.:18:27.

that need, and need to raise money locally. The police service demands

:18:28.:18:33.

more, it is trying to do its best in professional circumstances. This

:18:34.:18:38.

settlement, with the new challenges of increased terrorism, cyber crime,

:18:39.:18:43.

fraud, a range of new crimes coming forward, this settlement will not

:18:44.:18:47.

meet that challenge in the next 4-5 years. Certainly in not the next few

:18:48.:18:54.

years. That is why I grieve my honourable friend in making this

:18:55.:19:03.

review, I hope others will do the same engine with me, and exercise

:19:04.:19:08.

that right. I will now announce the result of the ballot held today for

:19:09.:19:13.

the election of a new chair of the environmental audit committee. 460

:19:14.:19:20.

votes were cast. We have one spoiled ballot paper. The counting went to

:19:21.:19:29.

three stages. 417 active votes were cast in that round, excluding those

:19:30.:19:34.

ballot papers whose preferences have been exhausted. The quotes are to be

:19:35.:19:40.

reached was therefore 209 votes. Mary Creagh was elected chair with

:19:41.:19:48.

258 votes. The other candidate in that round, Gareth Davies, he

:19:49.:19:57.

received 159 votes. Mary Creagh will take up her post immediately. I

:19:58.:20:02.

congratulate the honourable lady on her election. The results of the

:20:03.:20:07.

count under the alternative vote system will be made available as

:20:08.:20:12.

soon as possible in the voting office, and published on the

:20:13.:20:16.

Internet for public viewing. Notwithstanding some of the

:20:17.:20:21.

courtesies which have developed in these matters in recent times, given

:20:22.:20:25.

we are in the middle of a debate, and people are waiting to speak, I

:20:26.:20:29.

would be most grateful if members could leave the congratulations and

:20:30.:20:36.

commiserations to be conducted outside of the chamber. Once again I

:20:37.:20:42.

warmly congratulate the honourable lady, and thank the other candidates

:20:43.:20:45.

for taking part in that important election. Thank you Mr Speaker. May

:20:46.:20:53.

I congratulate briefly the honourable lady on her election to

:20:54.:20:59.

the chair of the environmental audit select committee. None of us will

:21:00.:21:04.

miss the scene Army of paper to which we have been subjected in the

:21:05.:21:08.

past few days. We will all miss the poetry of the honourable member for

:21:09.:21:15.

Brent North. It may not have been from Palgrave 's' Golden Treasury,

:21:16.:21:20.

but it was certainly entertaining. I'm grateful to be called to speak

:21:21.:21:25.

in this important debate on the police crime. Certainly pleased to

:21:26.:21:30.

follow the honourable member for Devon, a former police Minister,

:21:31.:21:34.

experienced in these matters, although I do not always agree with

:21:35.:21:41.

everything he has to say. I'm certainly not always right, you may

:21:42.:21:45.

be surprised to hear, because when the prospect of police and crime

:21:46.:21:51.

commissioners was first mooted, I have to admit I was sceptical. I am

:21:52.:21:55.

a Conservative, like all Conservatives we are wary of change.

:21:56.:22:01.

I was not sure whether we should employ this radical procedure of

:22:02.:22:06.

policing crime commissioners. I'm always pleased to remind myself to

:22:07.:22:11.

remind myself of the great Marquess of Salisbury, when officials and

:22:12.:22:16.

ministers would visit him at Hatfield house, to encourage him to

:22:17.:22:21.

do this or say that, he would sit in his chair, press his fingers to his

:22:22.:22:29.

chin, and say after a moment's thought, it it would be better not.

:22:30.:22:33.

I think governments of all stripes with where that's well when

:22:34.:22:41.

considering officials requests. The Home Secretary was right on the

:22:42.:22:47.

question of policing crime commissioners, to say it is better

:22:48.:22:50.

we do this. Police and crime commissioners have brought about

:22:51.:22:55.

transformative change to our police forces around the country. And to

:22:56.:23:00.

the way the police spend their money, not least in my own county of

:23:01.:23:04.

Staffordshire. Matthew Ellis has done a tremendous job in bringing in

:23:05.:23:11.

new Czech knowledge of, hand-held tablets, which have reduced the

:23:12.:23:15.

amount of time police officers have two working their stations, putting

:23:16.:23:21.

them out onto the beach. At a fraction of a cast, it has

:23:22.:23:25.

effectively created 100 new police officers in Staffordshire. As a

:23:26.:23:31.

result of his reforms, we have not seen any increase in the precept

:23:32.:23:37.

over the last four years. He can balance the budget over the next

:23:38.:23:40.

four years without an increase to the precept. Other honourable

:23:41.:23:46.

members have mentioned body cameras, we call them for the cameras in

:23:47.:23:57.

Staffordshire. -- Bobby cameras. We have led the way in that innovation,

:23:58.:24:01.

not only making it easier for police to prosecute crimes, it makes for

:24:02.:24:07.

challenging for people to make allegations against the police. If

:24:08.:24:11.

they are wearing cameras and are able to film there in behaviour,

:24:12.:24:15.

angry, often young people are far less likely to make claims about the

:24:16.:24:22.

police which are untrue. Also in Staffordshire, Mr Deputy Speaker, we

:24:23.:24:26.

have led the way in introducing a cadet force. There are now 240 cadet

:24:27.:24:34.

officers, between the ages of 14 and 17. Working in the police, working

:24:35.:24:40.

with the police, to build their skills, and work out whether they

:24:41.:24:45.

want to have a career in the police service. My point, Mr Deputy

:24:46.:24:51.

Speaker, if money is spent effectively, it if it is spent

:24:52.:24:56.

considerately, then we can have better policing, we can have a

:24:57.:25:03.

community which feels safer, we can have a police force with the tools

:25:04.:25:07.

it needs to do the job. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I'm

:25:08.:25:14.

interested in what the honourable gentleman is saying. Central grants

:25:15.:25:22.

to counties like Durham, it is far more important than the precept,

:25:23.:25:27.

even a large increase in the precept does not generate much cash because

:25:28.:25:33.

of the number of band Eight properties we have in County Durham.

:25:34.:25:37.

Does that mean we have not got a level playing field across the UK?

:25:38.:25:42.

The precept is not a way of generating extra cash in places that

:25:43.:25:50.

do not have large numbers of band Eight properties?

:25:51.:25:55.

I think he may be thinking Staffordshire is a green and leafy

:25:56.:26:07.

county. Staffordshire has stoked in it, areas of deprivation in

:26:08.:26:10.

Tamworth, Burton. That county, led by Matthew

:26:11.:27:05.

Alice, has made a saving of ?126 million, which is invested in

:27:06.:27:07.

technology, which makes policing better in Staffordshire. And I dare

:27:08.:27:12.

say banning County Durham. My point remains. The House has lots of time.

:27:13.:27:18.

No I am grateful for your guidance but I wouldn't wish to impose upon

:27:19.:27:22.

the time of my colleagues on both sides and I'm sure the honourable

:27:23.:27:26.

gentleman can make his own speech in his own good time. In Staffordshire

:27:27.:27:29.

we have a police force which works closely with its community. We have

:27:30.:27:32.

cut costs, but police on the streets, introduced innovation and

:27:33.:27:34.

our public is I commend a la police force and our police and crime

:27:35.:27:36.

commission to other police forces around the country. I was wrong to

:27:37.:27:39.

say no to police and crime position is commissioners. It will deliver

:27:40.:27:42.

more money to the police and when it does Staffordshire will lead the

:27:43.:27:43.

way. I would like to begin by thanking my

:27:44.:27:51.

right honourable friend for his remarks about PC Dave Phillips, who

:27:52.:27:57.

we lost on the Wirral last year. He died in the line of duty, doing the

:27:58.:28:02.

job he did so well to protect the people of Wirral. He was a very

:28:03.:28:06.

valued and dedicated officer and his loss is keenly felt. The

:28:07.:28:11.

Chancellor's 11th hour U-turn on funding of policing in November was

:28:12.:28:16.

welcome. The cuts to the Police and Crime Commissioner were of the order

:28:17.:28:22.

of between 62- ?100 million by 2019-20 and would have stretched the

:28:23.:28:27.

capacity of the police force on Merseyside to do its job of keeping

:28:28.:28:30.

us safe to near breaking point. Cuts on that scale would have meant the

:28:31.:28:35.

loss of all police and community support officers, the mounted police

:28:36.:28:39.

section as well as reduce resources for tackling serious and organised

:28:40.:28:42.

crime, sexual offences and hate crime. People Merseyside were very

:28:43.:28:46.

concerned about the impact this would have had an our communities.

:28:47.:28:54.

However, the relief was acknowledged by the spending reductions that our

:28:55.:28:57.

police force was already being. Make. The force has made savings of

:28:58.:29:05.

?77 million, resulting in an overall budget reduction of 20%. Over that

:29:06.:29:10.

period, the number of police officers have fallen by 20%. Police

:29:11.:29:19.

staff by 24%. PCS owes by 25%. The PCS ons are the eyes and ears of

:29:20.:29:27.

policing. On Merseyside, in Wirral in particular and their shift at

:29:28.:29:32.

10pm, before the pubs have close, as a result of the changing shift

:29:33.:29:37.

allowance in 2013. There is not enough money to pay them to be on

:29:38.:29:41.

duty at one of the times and they are most needed. So the relief we

:29:42.:29:47.

Merseyside felt at the news on the Chancellor's U-turn was tempered by

:29:48.:29:50.

what then followed. Since November it has also become clear that the

:29:51.:29:55.

Chancellor's pledge to safeguard our police funding was not the full 180

:29:56.:29:59.

degrees U-turn we hoped but only partial. The devil is very much in

:30:00.:30:03.

the detail. The pledge the Chancellor made to protect the

:30:04.:30:06.

police depends on an increase in the preceptor compensate the reduction

:30:07.:30:11.

in government grants. Merseyside's general grant was reduced by ?1.3

:30:12.:30:15.

million. The Home Secretary has made it clear she expects it will be

:30:16.:30:20.

offset by increasing the precept to the maximum available and the Police

:30:21.:30:24.

and Crime Commissioner has consulted the public and police and crime

:30:25.:30:31.

panel. The proposal has got strong support in both cases. However, the

:30:32.:30:37.

2016-17 Merseyside Police faces a Budget deficit of 5.4 million for

:30:38.:30:42.

that period. In order to address this, the deficit it faces and

:30:43.:30:48.

balance the budget, the PCC is proposing to utilise 2.1 million of

:30:49.:30:52.

reserves and requests are forced to make further savings of 3.3 million

:30:53.:31:01.

in 2016-17. Assuming that the PCC's 04 all level of funding stays at

:31:02.:31:05.

this level it is anticipated further savings of 22 million will be

:31:06.:31:13.

required by 2017-18 and 2020-21. While the final settlement will mean

:31:14.:31:16.

the force will have to make less savings than expected, it still

:31:17.:31:20.

represents a real challenge, and those savings will have to be made

:31:21.:31:23.

against a background of increasing demand on the police on Merseyside.

:31:24.:31:29.

The increase in some kinds of crime, including serious offences

:31:30.:31:32.

Merseyside, has been significantly higher than the national average and

:31:33.:31:36.

I would urge the Minister to look at the detail. The overall increase in

:31:37.:31:40.

crime Merseyside between September 20 14-15 with 6.4%. That is just in

:31:41.:31:47.

the course of one year. That was in line with the national averages for

:31:48.:31:50.

England and Wales. However, when we look at other offences the picture

:31:51.:31:55.

is not quite so favourable for Merseyside. Vehicle theft offences

:31:56.:31:59.

saw an increase in 8.9%, while in England and Wales it was 0.1%.

:32:00.:32:05.

Merseyside domestic burglary increased by 1.2%. In England and

:32:06.:32:11.

Wales it deep creased by 5.1 seven. And there was a 48.7% increase in

:32:12.:32:18.

offences involving violence against the person in Merseyside, as opposed

:32:19.:32:23.

to nearly half that, 26.8% in England and Wales. These are very

:32:24.:32:28.

worrying figures. Violent offences involving injury increased 36.8%,

:32:29.:32:33.

compared to 15% in England and Wells. The number of violent

:32:34.:32:37.

offences without injury let up by 60.7 cents, compared to 37% in

:32:38.:32:43.

England and Wales. These figures are matter of real concern. They reflect

:32:44.:32:48.

the very serious need there is not properly funded policing. Sexual

:32:49.:32:53.

offences also increased Merseyside. As well as improvements in recording

:32:54.:32:59.

crime, and this might reflect a greater willingness of victims to

:33:00.:33:02.

come forward, while fat willingness has to be welcomed, it also means

:33:03.:33:07.

there needs to be the resources available to pursue cases and deal

:33:08.:33:11.

with victims in a sensitive way. If that doesn't happen, victims won't

:33:12.:33:15.

continue to come forward in greater numbers. People Merseyside must have

:33:16.:33:22.

we dress in law when they are subjected to violence. The first

:33:23.:33:25.

duty of the state is to protect the public. The Chancellor must ensure

:33:26.:33:28.

the police have the resources to do so. Wirral West is a lovely part of

:33:29.:33:34.

the world, with some areas of real prosperity, but it also has areas of

:33:35.:33:38.

real deprivation. There are some areas of my constituency where

:33:39.:33:40.

people are frightened to go to the shops in the middle of the day due

:33:41.:33:44.

to anti-social behaviour. This is wholly unacceptable. I will give

:33:45.:33:49.

way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. She is making a very

:33:50.:33:54.

strong case and giving an articulation of the impact these

:33:55.:34:00.

cuts are having on communities. We see every day the impact it does

:34:01.:34:04.

have on those people. Which you also agree with me, the people ask we do

:34:05.:34:11.

today would -- to do this very difficult job, are suffering as a

:34:12.:34:14.

result of these cuts as well as Marco Police Federation towards a

:34:15.:34:19.

last end of last year said three quarters of police officers do not

:34:20.:34:22.

feel valued in the service and are suffering from low morale. That is a

:34:23.:34:26.

cause for concern as well. I thank my honourable friend for his

:34:27.:34:31.

remarks. I think my honourable friend's remarks are indeed

:34:32.:34:35.

absolutely right. It is so important we value police officers and all the

:34:36.:34:38.

police staff to do a very difficult job. All of my constituents deserve

:34:39.:34:44.

to be able to go about their daily lives without fear or anxiety. All

:34:45.:34:50.

of them deserve a police service that is funded at a level that

:34:51.:34:54.

enables it to do its job safely and efficiently.

:34:55.:34:59.

I would like to pay tribute to the work done by all of Merseyside

:35:00.:35:04.

Police staff, including PCSOs, police officers, the so-called back

:35:05.:35:08.

office staff, who have been somewhat maligned by certain members on the

:35:09.:35:14.

opposite benches, who fronts staff rely in perilous situation and

:35:15.:35:16.

without whom the force could not operate. I would also like to pay

:35:17.:35:20.

tribute to the Police and Crime Commissioner, who does such a good

:35:21.:35:23.

job. The Chancellor made his U-turn on extreme cuts the night before the

:35:24.:35:27.

spending review. This suggests an extraordinary lack of planning and

:35:28.:35:31.

calls into question the quality of decision-making made at the

:35:32.:35:33.

Treasury. The police force on Merseyside must be funded on a level

:35:34.:35:37.

that allows it to prevent crime wherever possible and pursue those

:35:38.:35:41.

who commit it effectively. It has to meet the rising demand that come

:35:42.:35:46.

from the level of crime. This is fundamental if we are to live in a

:35:47.:35:51.

civilised, stable and safe society. I urge the Minister to look

:35:52.:35:54.

carefully at policing need Merseyside and fight for a fair

:35:55.:35:57.

police funding settlement. Stephen Hammond. Thank you. It is a great

:35:58.:36:04.

pleasure to speak in this debate. I would like to use my short time to

:36:05.:36:08.

address some of the issues that affect particularly London. Let me

:36:09.:36:11.

start, it is a pleasure to follow the honourable lady. Don't think

:36:12.:36:17.

anyone on this side maligns anyone in the police start. Let me put on

:36:18.:36:22.

record my tribute to the Metropolitan Police and particular

:36:23.:36:24.

in my own borough, which have had some interesting issues to deal

:36:25.:36:28.

within the last month, which I will refer to later. Lars and number of

:36:29.:36:36.

London members had dinner with the Metropolitan Police Commissioner who

:36:37.:36:39.

was going through the modelling my right honourable friend mentioned

:36:40.:36:50.

beforehand. The key thing after that was that there was a number of

:36:51.:36:55.

people, particularly from London. The right Honourable member of

:36:56.:37:01.

Uxbridge and for Richmond Park, who led some delegations to meet the

:37:02.:37:05.

Home Secretary to discuss. From a London point of view, can I say to

:37:06.:37:11.

the police minister, we delighted you listened and the Chancellor and

:37:12.:37:15.

the Home Secretary. It makes a huge difference. This extra money will

:37:16.:37:21.

allow London to deal with the reforms you spoke about, the

:37:22.:37:25.

policing of our national city, but the policing of our local

:37:26.:37:27.

constituency as well. The key point has been that there have been

:37:28.:37:32.

reforms. An amber of these reforms have actually -- a number have

:37:33.:37:38.

rendered the police force more effective. One of the problems with

:37:39.:37:48.

the previous model was people got taken off neighbourhood policing,

:37:49.:37:50.

particularly in London. There were some real issues with it at various

:37:51.:37:57.

times. I have no doubt, so it was a great innovation, it worked, it has

:37:58.:38:02.

worked. But even a reduced number, having those dedicated people there

:38:03.:38:06.

the whole time is having a similar effect. We saw that recently with

:38:07.:38:11.

the help the police got him bringing forward information in solving a

:38:12.:38:17.

very unfortunate murder in my constituency. But of course, what

:38:18.:38:21.

the money does in London is a lot more than just the local, it has to

:38:22.:38:29.

do the National as well. Therefore can I also thank the Home Secretary

:38:30.:38:32.

and the Chancellor for listening to some of the issues about the

:38:33.:38:37.

National Crime Agency. The potential that investment has is

:38:38.:38:45.

to look turn it into a leading law enforcement agency. If you look at

:38:46.:38:48.

one of the debates we have had in this chamber over the last two years

:38:49.:38:52.

over cybercrime, and what that impact has in our national city, at

:38:53.:38:58.

one level it will affect all of us. The Internet and the ability to

:38:59.:39:02.

break into the Internet of things and create problems for people at a

:39:03.:39:07.

personal level is high, but London is the key financial centre of

:39:08.:39:10.

Europe. It is the global financial centre of the world. Cybercrime and

:39:11.:39:16.

the alertness to cybercrime and giving the resources to the police.

:39:17.:39:21.

The able to fight cybercrime, is absolutely key. Therefore, the

:39:22.:39:24.

investment in the National Crime Agency will have a big impact in

:39:25.:39:29.

London and London's reputation and also a national impact. The same

:39:30.:39:33.

applies to counterterrorism. I have just seen at a local level, again,

:39:34.:39:37.

the money that has been invested will have a huge impact both locally

:39:38.:39:41.

and nationally. The policing minister will be aware there were a

:39:42.:39:47.

number of incredibly callous bomb hoaxs at four my local schools two

:39:48.:39:55.

weeks ago. The money secured for the National Crime Agency and

:39:56.:40:00.

counterterrorism not only can be invested in the capability of

:40:01.:40:03.

ensuring that our extra police on the streets, but to deal with and

:40:04.:40:06.

build up the intelligence to defeat some of these callous bomb hoax. The

:40:07.:40:12.

local commander shared with me a lot of information I wouldn't want to

:40:13.:40:15.

bring out today, about the work they have done. That can only happen if

:40:16.:40:22.

we put the money into some of these agencies, as well. What this police

:40:23.:40:27.

grant does is actually protect those agencies, protecting people on the

:40:28.:40:31.

streets, day after day, minute after minute. All of that is absolutely

:40:32.:40:37.

crucial in the city, the great City of London, because we face, as many

:40:38.:40:41.

other cities do around the world and in this country, but I suggest to

:40:42.:40:46.

you a unique and very severe threat from terrorism and the additional

:40:47.:40:52.

pressures, policing pressures on London that other places don't get

:40:53.:40:57.

as well. And therefore particularly welcome for the Metropolitan Police

:40:58.:41:01.

through the London authority as the international city funding worth 174

:41:02.:41:05.

million, going to the Metropolitan Police and the City of London

:41:06.:41:06.

Police. Isolate the police Minister, we are

:41:07.:41:17.

pleased you have listened. -- I say to the Police Minister. Because what

:41:18.:41:27.

we do across London has an impact nationally and internationally. Like

:41:28.:41:34.

the former shadow police Minister, I will be casting my vote tonight,

:41:35.:41:39.

because of what I think the police need. I want to pay tribute to this

:41:40.:41:46.

government, and my colleagues, I hope, will join us in recognising

:41:47.:41:53.

what a good settlement it is, and support the government a night. I

:41:54.:41:59.

want to speak briefly about Bedfordshire. It has been seriously

:42:00.:42:04.

underfunded over a prolonged period, and has serious problems. I was

:42:05.:42:21.

pleased to visit the Police Minister, and he had a paper from

:42:22.:42:24.

the Chief Constable and the police crime Commissioner, on the desperate

:42:25.:42:32.

state in Bedfordshire. I asked the business question last week,

:42:33.:42:36.

suggesting the funding formula was fundamentally flawed, broken is the

:42:37.:42:40.

term I used, and I hope the funding formula will be very soon rapidly

:42:41.:42:49.

amended. So it provides fair funding for Bedfordshire and other

:42:50.:42:54.

authorities across the country. We have a particular problem with knife

:42:55.:42:59.

crime. Com trouble with Merseyside, greater Manchester and other areas,

:43:00.:43:05.

yet we are substantially less funding for such crime. We have a

:43:06.:43:10.

problem with gun crime, Kabul with these large urban areas, and we

:43:11.:43:15.

cannot cope because we have a serious underfunding. Our police

:43:16.:43:19.

force is a wonderful job with the resources they have, but those

:43:20.:43:23.

resources are simply not good enough. If you compare Bedfordshire

:43:24.:43:32.

with some other rural areas, Wales for example, which is, in terms of

:43:33.:43:38.

police resources, and officers per head of population, they are

:43:39.:43:43.

multiple of that available in Bedfordshire. And yet they have very

:43:44.:43:48.

full crime. There is something fundamentally wrong with the formula

:43:49.:43:54.

that can give such generous police funding, relatively generous, to

:43:55.:43:57.

rural areas where there is very little crime, and a place like

:43:58.:44:01.

Bedfordshire where we have some fairly serious problems with crime

:44:02.:44:06.

that we do our best to deal with, but are struggling. We had an

:44:07.:44:12.

excellent Chief Constable and excellent police crime Commissioner,

:44:13.:44:16.

and they are doing their best. Providing me with detailed arguments

:44:17.:44:21.

and statistics. They make the point over and over again, we need a

:44:22.:44:27.

fairer funding formula, which will bring Bedfordshire into line with

:44:28.:44:32.

other areas. We have an airport which needs extra resources to

:44:33.:44:35.

police, we have crime which I have already mentioned, we have political

:44:36.:44:43.

extremism on both sides of the divide, if I can call it that. Yet

:44:44.:44:49.

again requiring extra police. The police do the very best job they

:44:50.:44:53.

possibly can with the resources they have, but we do not have enough

:44:54.:44:56.

resources to do the job we need to do. I would urge the police

:44:57.:45:01.

Minister, once again to look seriously at the funding formula.

:45:02.:45:05.

Not just an extra bit of cash to help out in the short-term, but

:45:06.:45:09.

actually to fundamentally look at how the funding formula can be

:45:10.:45:14.

revised, so it treats Bedfordshire and every other area fairly with

:45:15.:45:20.

equity to funding. Overall, we still need more funding for the police in

:45:21.:45:25.

general. Even with the lower level of funding we have across the

:45:26.:45:28.

country, it should still be allocated fairly, and Bedfordshire

:45:29.:45:36.

should get its fair amount. I leave it there, Mr Deputy Speaker, I

:45:37.:45:41.

apologise to honourable members and yourself, I am having to go to the

:45:42.:45:51.

European committee, and I apologise if I leave fairly quickly after my

:45:52.:45:52.

speech. Mr Deputy Speaker, the police grant

:45:53.:46:04.

report before us today is good news for police forces across the

:46:05.:46:08.

country, and for the force that covers my constituency, despite the

:46:09.:46:11.

scaremongering we have seen in the press. I strongly welcomed the

:46:12.:46:16.

significant increase in financial resources across England and Wales,

:46:17.:46:20.

and no policing crime Commissioner will face a reduction in cash

:46:21.:46:24.

funding over the next financial year. Credit must go to the Home

:46:25.:46:30.

Secretary and the Policing Minister. I thank you for protecting

:46:31.:46:40.

constituents in my area. The country has to do with the mess left behind

:46:41.:46:45.

by the party opposite, this report confirms we're through the worst of

:46:46.:46:48.

that and under responsible government we can once again offer

:46:49.:46:53.

our police the support they need. Crime is fallen by more than a

:46:54.:46:58.

quarter under this governor. We have seen falls in crime across

:46:59.:47:01.

Lancashire and my own constituency of Pendle. I would just cancelled

:47:02.:47:10.

the honourable member talking about across the country. He's saying

:47:11.:47:14.

things which are not true for greater Manchester. We have seen a

:47:15.:47:19.

40% increase in recorded crime, 46% increase in violent crime, facing a

:47:20.:47:27.

5p of cuts. Could you not talk about across the country, when he's not

:47:28.:47:31.

talking about greater Manchester? She's talking about reported crime,

:47:32.:47:36.

not if you look at the British crime survey, crime has fallen across this

:47:37.:47:44.

country. It is or was being supported as a more accurate

:47:45.:47:46.

reflection of crime rates across the country. I'm going to talk about

:47:47.:47:50.

different rates of crime that have increased. If the honourable lady

:47:51.:47:55.

allows me, I will make more progress with my speech. Very quick

:47:56.:48:00.

intervention, I'm keen for everyone to speak. It is important we put the

:48:01.:48:07.

record right. In July of this year, cyber crime, online fraud will be

:48:08.:48:11.

included in the crime survey of England and Wales. The early

:48:12.:48:16.

estimate is it will add 6 million crimes, see crime doubling. Will the

:48:17.:48:21.

honourable gentleman reflect on what he has just said, and recognise the

:48:22.:48:27.

truth will be told on crime. It is not falling, it is changing. If he

:48:28.:48:33.

holds his horses, I will get onto cyber crime, certain crime not

:48:34.:48:38.

reflected in the crime figures, and why I think the police grant is a

:48:39.:48:42.

sensible situation for the police, investing in dealing with new forms

:48:43.:48:46.

of crime, which have not had to be dealt with in the past by our police

:48:47.:48:52.

forces. Turning back to my own area, drug gangs. They are real problem

:48:53.:48:56.

within the Pendle constituency. We have seen Operation Regenerate,

:48:57.:49:07.

tackling drug crime in my constituency. The government bill

:49:08.:49:11.

will help even further with this, stopping people profiting from

:49:12.:49:15.

selling dangerous drugs to young people. So-called legal highs have

:49:16.:49:20.

caused serious harm to young people in my area, I'm proud to have served

:49:21.:49:28.

on the Bill committee alongside several right honourable members in

:49:29.:49:32.

the House today. While most of the types of crime in the past have been

:49:33.:49:37.

recorded in the crime statistics have fallen, we have seen upward

:49:38.:49:44.

trends in certain types of crime. Violence and sexual offences have

:49:45.:49:47.

increased in recent years. Some of that is to historic underreporting,

:49:48.:49:54.

there are to macro factors. As a country we still face an epidemic of

:49:55.:49:59.

domestic violence against women, and men are affected, too. Just last

:50:00.:50:03.

weekend woman was a victim of a very serious sexual assault in a town

:50:04.:50:08.

which I live. A rare thing to happen in that town, and I'm sure the whole

:50:09.:50:14.

House will join me helping for swift arrests for those guilty of this

:50:15.:50:17.

appalling attack, and expressing every sympathy for the victim. I

:50:18.:50:22.

hope that the Minister can set out how the Home Office will be

:50:23.:50:25.

supporting our police force, and police forces like Lancashire to

:50:26.:50:29.

work with other agencies to make sure domestic violence and sexual

:50:30.:50:33.

offences are reported and the victim is protected. We also face a rise in

:50:34.:50:39.

crimes like modern slavery. Lancashire Police are at the

:50:40.:50:44.

forefront of fighting this. For the first modern slavery orders was

:50:45.:50:48.

given to a man in my constituency, using new powers given to the police

:50:49.:50:56.

by the coalition Modern Slavery Act. We face new forms of crime, and the

:50:57.:51:00.

government must do what it can to help the police reform to tackle new

:51:01.:51:05.

forms of crime, and protecting vulnerable people at risk from these

:51:06.:51:08.

kinds of exploitation. The commitment to transform funding

:51:09.:51:12.

towards specialist capabilities, to tackle cyber crime is also hugely

:51:13.:51:18.

important. If we are to protect individuals and business from the

:51:19.:51:21.

growing threat of online fraud. All the statistics indicate it is a real

:51:22.:51:34.

concern. We will see a new cyber skills Forum open, so we can train

:51:35.:51:40.

up the next-generation of our police force desperately needed. Also the

:51:41.:51:44.

challenge of identifying the best way our police can integrate

:51:45.:51:47.

different communities in East Lancashire and across the country.

:51:48.:51:51.

As we all join together to fight extremism and dissemination against

:51:52.:51:55.

certain groups based on their ethnicity and religion. I recently

:51:56.:51:59.

met with Andy Pratt, who served Lancashire for 28 years as a police

:52:00.:52:05.

officer. He set up the first-ever community cohesion team in the

:52:06.:52:09.

county, since he has retired, working tirelessly on interfaith

:52:10.:52:13.

work building bridges between the Muslim and Christian community. I am

:52:14.:52:17.

delighted he has been selected for the Conservative Party candidate. If

:52:18.:52:23.

we're going to go down campaign for people standing collection, this is

:52:24.:52:28.

about police funding, not about candidates, how good or bad they

:52:29.:52:36.

are. Thank you Mr Speaker, I thank you for that guidance. Thank you. In

:52:37.:52:41.

conclusion, others like to thank my right honourable friend for the way

:52:42.:52:45.

he has worked with myself and other Lancashire MPs on a cross-party

:52:46.:52:49.

basis, particularly on the proposed changes to the police funding

:52:50.:52:53.

formula, which would see a disadvantage for Lancashire Police.

:52:54.:52:57.

Can I welcome the generous settlement before the House, I think

:52:58.:53:01.

it is generous, we have to work with local police forces to ensure police

:53:02.:53:06.

reform across the UK continues, and we continue to drive down all types

:53:07.:53:17.

of crime in this country. I want to make four brief points, firstly

:53:18.:53:21.

about the level of funding. Before the Autumn Statement, the Home

:53:22.:53:25.

Office was asked to model reductions in spending. They were preparing for

:53:26.:53:30.

cuts between 20 and 25%. Labour said they could survive cuts of 10%, but

:53:31.:53:37.

the Chancellor protected police funding. I welcome that protection,

:53:38.:53:43.

as did many police leaders. The most impressive responses from the

:53:44.:53:47.

policing community came from people like Chief Constable Simon Thornton,

:53:48.:53:51.

recognising the need for efficient funding, and the police to reform

:53:52.:53:55.

and adapt to the changing demands on their services. My second point is

:53:56.:53:59.

one about flexibility. Important that the police are flexible, to the

:54:00.:54:06.

demands of their services. The National Audit Office has revealed

:54:07.:54:10.

in one of its studies, that the police do not actually have a

:54:11.:54:14.

sufficient understanding of the levels of the month they face.

:54:15.:54:18.

Important that they understand the demands they face and adapt to face

:54:19.:54:22.

that the mind. I will give way to the honourable member. I think he

:54:23.:54:27.

was wrong and earlier on, Durham is in fact the most inefficient police

:54:28.:54:32.

force in the country. -- most efficient. As the honourable member

:54:33.:54:39.

says quite rightly, Durham is the only Constabulary in the country,

:54:40.:54:43.

which is five outstanding ratings for efficiency from the HMRC

:54:44.:54:48.

inspectors. Despite that, it will actually lose something like ?3

:54:49.:54:53.

million next year. The honourable member for Pendle said the cash

:54:54.:54:58.

settlement has not been reduced. There are other demands which mean

:54:59.:55:02.

officers will have to be reduced in County Durham. Cutting by 400 in the

:55:03.:55:08.

last ten years. I'm sure the Minister will deal with that in his

:55:09.:55:12.

response. I do not recognise those statistics, I would pay tribute to

:55:13.:55:15.

his chief comfortable for running such a wonderfully efficient force.

:55:16.:55:17.

The point about flexibility. Plainly, plainly is lost on the

:55:18.:55:29.

Labour Party. I went to a recent Westminster Hall debate when a west

:55:30.:55:36.

London MP insists on top down, inflexible model of Ward policing in

:55:37.:55:41.

London, not recognising fact some wards need more policing than

:55:42.:55:46.

others, as we have in kinks to. That's why I endorsed the Home

:55:47.:55:50.

Secretary and Chancellor's decision to be flexible themselves. -- in

:55:51.:56:01.

- increasing the funding for a new drive to coordinate the fight

:56:02.:56:09.

against fraud. That is something we have seen an increase of,

:56:10.:56:14.

particularly on the Internet. By third point about reform, police

:56:15.:56:18.

funding has to go hand-in-hand with reform. Under the Coalition

:56:19.:56:22.

Government, particular Conservative policies, we have seen an increase

:56:23.:56:30.

in democratic control of police. We have seen reforms to the misconduct

:56:31.:56:34.

regime, including recently opening up misconduct hearings to the

:56:35.:56:39.

public. We have seen that creation of the collagen of police and to set

:56:40.:56:47.

guidelines. I occasionally give lectures that. The Home Secretary's

:56:48.:56:52.

police reform agenda continues. Funding to encourage collaboration

:56:53.:56:56.

between forces, not a top-down model like that under the last Labour

:56:57.:57:01.

government. We have seen excellent models of collaboration, like West

:57:02.:57:05.

Murcia and Warwickshire Police. And funding to encourage bluelight

:57:06.:57:10.

collaboration, away to save money but also increase the efficiency and

:57:11.:57:14.

effectiveness of our blue light services. My fourth and final point

:57:15.:57:20.

is about policing in London and in Kingston. We have the second lowest

:57:21.:57:25.

crime rate in London. An excellent borough commander, who leads a

:57:26.:57:30.

fantastic local police. They are part of the fabric of the local

:57:31.:57:35.

community and they do us in Kingston proud. Tomorrow I will be hosting a

:57:36.:57:40.

public meeting with the officers in Surbiton, to talk about the work

:57:41.:57:45.

they do to tackle crime and anti-social behaviour there. In

:57:46.:57:52.

Kingston town centre the Conservative council has made good

:57:53.:57:56.

on our campaign to increase the number of police officers, by using

:57:57.:58:00.

the police act to buy extra police officers and make use of the Merit

:58:01.:58:05.

London's by one and get one free offer. This has had a fantastic

:58:06.:58:10.

impact on the rate of arrests in the town centre. Many of my constituents

:58:11.:58:15.

don't just spend time in Kingston, but into central London, where crime

:58:16.:58:19.

rates are higher and the threat of terrorism is higher. That is why got

:58:20.:58:25.

together with other London MPs, including my neighbour in Richmond

:58:26.:58:30.

Park, with the member of Uxbridge on Ruislip, to speak with the policing

:58:31.:58:34.

minister with the Home Secretary and with the Chancellor, to ensure that

:58:35.:58:37.

police funding in London was protected. I hear the honourable

:58:38.:58:43.

member for Leeds claims it was labour that forced a change in

:58:44.:58:45.

police funding, but that is simply not correct. There are clear calls

:58:46.:58:54.

made on this side of the House and the Chancellor, the Home Secretary

:58:55.:58:57.

and police Minister listened and protected our budget. As a result of

:58:58.:59:03.

that, and as a result of that Madam Deputy Speaker, PCSOs in London are

:59:04.:59:06.

not going to be cut. Authorised firearms officers in London will be

:59:07.:59:12.

increased by considerable numbers. And going forward, we are going to

:59:13.:59:16.

have an increase in funding for counterterrorism and our city grant

:59:17.:59:22.

has been protected. Going back to flexibility, certain areas of crime

:59:23.:59:28.

have increased despite the overall downward trend in the UK and London.

:59:29.:59:32.

But I'm sure the Metropolitan Police, the police in Kingston and

:59:33.:59:35.

the police in the whole of the country will be flexible to the

:59:36.:59:39.

increase in demand of their services. They will meet those

:59:40.:59:42.

challenges. I welcome this statement. I am delighted that

:59:43.:59:47.

funding has been protected in London and delighted that the Government is

:59:48.:59:51.

putting the protection of people at home and abroad fast and I thank the

:59:52.:59:55.

Minister for what he has done for policing in London.

:59:56.:00:02.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is fitting we are having this debate

:00:03.:00:06.

in the same week that the Prime Minister made a speech on his

:00:07.:00:10.

ground-breaking reforms in our prison system. One startling fact in

:00:11.:00:18.

his speech is 70% of prisoners have at least seven previous convictions.

:00:19.:00:25.

So if we can improve those rates, it will have an impact on the resources

:00:26.:00:30.

available to police officers. These reforms, both in terms of the prison

:00:31.:00:34.

system and in terms of the police funding formula are compassion and

:00:35.:00:38.

to be welcomed, because they will also help to prevent crime. My right

:00:39.:00:43.

honourable friend the Minister is to be congratulated. Firstly for acting

:00:44.:00:47.

on the promise of reviewing the police funding formula. That is

:00:48.:00:50.

something that had been promised by others over the years, but never

:00:51.:00:55.

actually done. This minister and the Home Secretary have done that. He is

:00:56.:01:00.

also to be congratulated for protecting the policing budget in

:01:01.:01:04.

the Autumn Statement, and for making real blue right reform possible,

:01:05.:01:10.

enabling the police, ambulance and Fire Service to work together. I

:01:11.:01:15.

would do with this in turn. The police funding formula, Lincolnshire

:01:16.:01:20.

is my police constabulary in my constituency. It is a very, very

:01:21.:01:25.

rural part of the world and it has been particularly badly affected by

:01:26.:01:29.

the old police funding formula, as was referred to by my honourable

:01:30.:01:34.

friend, the member for game Gainsborough. The Chief Constable

:01:35.:01:39.

has been very brave in challenging the funding formula and indeed some

:01:40.:01:43.

of his colleagues, the other chiefs, because not every police chief has

:01:44.:01:50.

made the efficiencies he has made. He wrote an excellent book on it,

:01:51.:01:58.

which has helped me when I have been sitting in the home affairs select

:01:59.:02:01.

committee asking Chief constables various questions. In the home

:02:02.:02:06.

affairs select committee we have seen that some forces have

:02:07.:02:12.

extraordinary generous reserves of savings. I think when the honourable

:02:13.:02:17.

member for Leicester East invited Chief constables and police and

:02:18.:02:21.

crime commission is to give evidence to the committee we heard they had

:02:22.:02:25.

reserves of up to ?60 million in some cases. Since then I have learnt

:02:26.:02:31.

that West Midlands has a reserve of ?153 million. Rather than that money

:02:32.:02:36.

sitting in a bank account, surely we should be spending it wisely, to

:02:37.:02:39.

protect the public. I turned then... I will. I am

:02:40.:02:50.

thankful for her giving way. That money is earmarked for

:02:51.:02:53.

rationalisation of buildings to save money in the medium to longer term

:02:54.:02:58.

and for the recruitment of new officers. Secondly, I know Neil

:02:59.:03:02.

Rhodes, he is a fine police constable. He was right call for a

:03:03.:03:06.

review of the formula. Will the right honourable lady share his

:03:07.:03:11.

dismay and my dismay as a consequence of the shambles in the

:03:12.:03:14.

Home Office before Christmas, we are stuck with the existing arrangement?

:03:15.:03:19.

I thank the honourable member for his intervention. It is certainly

:03:20.:03:23.

true that Chief Constable was very excited at the prospect of the new

:03:24.:03:26.

funding formula and how that may help his constabulary. History... It

:03:27.:03:34.

is as it is, but indeed I have received a letter from the Chief

:03:35.:03:37.

Constable last month saying the constabulary has made further very

:03:38.:03:42.

bold bids for transformational funding, which they are very excited

:03:43.:03:46.

about, in terms of helping with blue light funding. I will come onto that

:03:47.:03:50.

in a moment. The overall police budget, as we have heard, will be

:03:51.:03:56.

protected with figures up to 900 million by 20 19-20. There will be

:03:57.:04:01.

an increase in real terms to 670 million in policing,

:04:02.:04:06.

counterterrorism next year and an increase in transformation funding

:04:07.:04:11.

to help with issues like cybercrime. We have heard, I sit here with three

:04:12.:04:18.

members of the joint committee which has scrutinised the draft of the

:04:19.:04:22.

investigatory powers Bill, which will report. Through the course of

:04:23.:04:27.

our work on that committee we have heard the real changing nature of

:04:28.:04:32.

threats facing our country and policing locally, whether it is

:04:33.:04:37.

counterterrorism or the challenges facing police officers investigating

:04:38.:04:40.

missing persons. At that is for another debate and another time. The

:04:41.:04:45.

final point is about making bluelight collaboration possible. In

:04:46.:04:49.

a village in my constituency the fire officers are trained to step in

:04:50.:04:56.

as ambulance workers, because they will be on the scene before

:04:57.:04:59.

ambulances. That is a great improvement. The more we see of

:05:00.:05:02.

that, the better. I had the pleasure of visiting police stations in Laos

:05:03.:05:08.

and Horncastle before Christmas to thank the officers for their work --

:05:09.:05:17.

Louth. The police station in Louth fits right next to the police

:05:18.:05:21.

station. There must be room to help services work together, to help

:05:22.:05:25.

protect the public. And finally, I know reference has been made by

:05:26.:05:32.

members of the set, saying that somehow members here do not

:05:33.:05:36.

appreciate the work of the police officers. That is simply wrong. I

:05:37.:05:41.

have had the pleasure, the privilege, of working with excellent

:05:42.:05:45.

police officers and law enforcement officers in my previous career, and

:05:46.:05:49.

indeed I am divided that Lincolnshire constabulary will be

:05:50.:05:53.

hosting its annual awards in March, to celebrate the bravery and the

:05:54.:05:58.

commitment of the officers in our county. I have been invited to it. I

:05:59.:06:03.

sadly probably won't be able to go because I will be here, but I wish

:06:04.:06:06.

them well and I'm sure the House which is eat and every police

:06:07.:06:10.

officer in our country well for the future and for the work they have

:06:11.:06:11.

done already. Alex Chalke. Very kind. Madame Debord is bigger,

:06:12.:06:24.

as the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the police protect us and the

:06:25.:06:28.

Government has indeed protected the police. In my view this settlement

:06:29.:06:33.

strikes the right balance between ensuring police forces up Rob Lee

:06:34.:06:41.

funded -- properly funded and can make reforms. When I heard the

:06:42.:06:45.

speech from the honourable gentleman it struck me it would be helpful to

:06:46.:06:50.

place some of the context that the context we find ourselves with. Back

:06:51.:06:56.

in 2010, this country was truly staring into the abyss will stop

:06:57.:07:02.

youth unemployment had doubled, Britain was a basket case of Europe.

:07:03.:07:06.

I hear the scoffing from the other side, but the important point is

:07:07.:07:12.

that this: the impact would have been felt on public services, if

:07:13.:07:17.

this government had not brought some degree of order to them. If we can

:07:18.:07:23.

just remember the position back then. People were thinking not just

:07:24.:07:27.

of trimming the police force, but talking about the wholesale meltdown

:07:28.:07:32.

of some of our key public services. That is precisely what has not

:07:33.:07:37.

happened. On the 25th of November, the Chancellor of the Exchequer

:07:38.:07:40.

announced police spending would be protected in real terms over the

:07:41.:07:44.

spending period, when the precept is taken into account. No PCC will face

:07:45.:07:48.

a reduction in cash funding next year and it does mean an increase in

:07:49.:07:55.

cash terms by up to 900 million by 2019-20. It has order been

:07:56.:08:01.

indicated, funding for police counterterrorism will increase in

:08:02.:08:06.

real terms to 670 million by 20 16-17. So from a situation where

:08:07.:08:12.

this country and policing was facing disaster, we find ourselves in a

:08:13.:08:17.

situation where there is a strong funding settlement where our

:08:18.:08:19.

services will be properly funded. Very briefly.

:08:20.:08:24.

You have to sit down when I stand up. LAUGHTER

:08:25.:08:28.

I know the present difficulties between revenue and capital and

:08:29.:08:31.

other concepts. He talks about nobody losing cash,

:08:32.:08:40.

doesn't he realise the likes of Durham, it has to take ?3 million

:08:41.:08:44.

out of its budget this year because of wage increases and other

:08:45.:08:48.

pressures that at the idea of flat cash is not an increase.

:08:49.:08:51.

The really important thing is to take this in context. Back in

:08:52.:08:57.

2010... If I can deal with a point. In 2010 this country was bringing in

:08:58.:09:02.

about ?600 million in tax revenue and spending 750 million. If that

:09:03.:09:06.

had not been addressed this country would be facing meltdown and

:09:07.:09:11.

policing would be facing meltdown. Instead policing is on a sound

:09:12.:09:15.

footing to protect the people of our country. The interesting thing is

:09:16.:09:19.

this, sometimes speeches are as interesting for what what is not

:09:20.:09:24.

said as to what is. When I heard the speech from the honourable member,

:09:25.:09:30.

he didn't mention, even on his own apocalyptic scenario about the kind

:09:31.:09:36.

of cut he would himself have countenanced. Because in fact, at

:09:37.:09:40.

the party conference in Brighton, the honourable member for league

:09:41.:09:44.

declared savings could be found of up to tempt them, which he said

:09:45.:09:49.

would be doable. That is not what is happening from this government. --

:09:50.:09:54.

up to 10%. I would suggest not only is funding on a stable footing, but

:09:55.:09:59.

capability is being enhanced. Let's look at a moment at how that

:10:00.:10:04.

capability is being enhanced. Specialist capabilities in

:10:05.:10:06.

cybercrime are being improved. I won't take any more interventions.

:10:07.:10:11.

Improvements in firearms capability. Modernisation and reform is taking

:10:12.:10:17.

place. We know that they do remain further efficiencies that can be

:10:18.:10:20.

made and indeed those are taking place. Whether it is in respect of

:10:21.:10:26.

decent funding, improving our capability, this is a settlement

:10:27.:10:30.

which leads to, even in difficult times, protecting police, building

:10:31.:10:33.

capacity, driving reform and delivery for the people of this

:10:34.:10:34.

country. The question is only the order

:10:35.:10:46.

paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:10:47.:10:47.

"no". Clear the lobby. Border. The question is is on the

:10:48.:12:47.

order paper. As many of that opinion say ayes. To the contrary noes.

:12:48.:19:07.

Order, order. The ayes to the right 310, the noes to the left 212.

:19:08.:29:13.

The ayes to the right, 310. The noes to the left, 212. Of those

:29:14.:29:26.

honourable members representing constituents in England and Wales,

:29:27.:29:29.

the ayes to the right 305, the noes to the left 208. So the ayes have

:29:30.:29:44.

it. The ayes have it. On what -- Dudson Mac. The question relating to

:29:45.:29:48.

the draft immigration and nationality fees order 2016. The

:29:49.:29:59.

ayes worth 313, the noes were 67. The ayes have it. The ayes have it.

:30:00.:30:10.

We come now to the three motions on local government Finance England,

:30:11.:30:15.

which will be debated together. I remind the House that these motions

:30:16.:30:19.

will be subject to double majority voting. If divisions are called on

:30:20.:30:23.

these motions, all members of the House able to vote in the divisions,

:30:24.:30:27.

the motions will be agreed only if of those voting are the majority of

:30:28.:30:33.

all members and a majority of all members representing constituencies

:30:34.:30:37.

in England voting in support of the motion. At the end we will report

:30:38.:30:43.

the results. First of all members, and second for those representing

:30:44.:30:48.

constituencies in England. I called the minister to move the first of

:30:49.:30:54.

the three motions, Mr Greg Clark. Thank you very much Madam Deputy

:30:55.:31:02.

Speaker. I would like to start by thanking all colleagues in this

:31:03.:31:07.

house, council leaders and officials who have contributed to the

:31:08.:31:10.

consultations and I made the provisional statement shortly before

:31:11.:31:15.

Christmas. Nearly 280 groups or individuals contributed to the

:31:16.:31:19.

consultation. All have been carefully considered and sensible

:31:20.:31:22.

suggestions have been incorporated into the final settlement before the

:31:23.:31:26.

House today. I have voice been frank with local councils, that they will

:31:27.:31:30.

need to continue to make savings. Local government accounts for nearly

:31:31.:31:34.

one quarter of public spending. It is inevitable and appropriate

:31:35.:31:37.

council should take their part does not play their part in reducing the

:31:38.:31:42.

national deficit. Council taxpayers are National taxpayers, they are the

:31:43.:31:45.

same people and everyone suffers if we run a permanent, untamed deficit.

:31:46.:31:53.

Councils have accepted their part in this responsibility. During the last

:31:54.:31:57.

parliament all parts of local government delivered the savings

:31:58.:32:00.

that have helped reduce the deficit by half. At the same time,

:32:01.:32:04.

satisfaction with the services provided by local councils has been

:32:05.:32:09.

maintained. A remarkable reflection on the professionalism and

:32:10.:32:10.

resourcefulness of local government. I will give way. Thank you. Will the

:32:11.:32:17.

understand the frustration of my constituents at the settlement for

:32:18.:32:22.

Harrow Council? We are one of the lowest settlements in London on a

:32:23.:32:27.

per capita basis. The council having to make ?80 million worth of cuts

:32:28.:32:32.

over four years, leading to the closure of the popular bridge mental

:32:33.:32:38.

health Day Centre. What I would say to the honourable gentleman is

:32:39.:32:43.

London councils have welcomed many of the changes we made in the

:32:44.:32:47.

settlement, including the provision of a four-year settlement. One of

:32:48.:32:51.

the concerns councils have had for many years is with annual funding

:32:52.:32:54.

they weren't able to plan ahead and reap some of the economies. He will

:32:55.:33:00.

also know that in terms of the response to the provisional

:33:01.:33:05.

settlement, I have made extra resources available to Harrow which

:33:06.:33:08.

I think has gone down well in his borough. I will give way to my

:33:09.:33:11.

vigorous honourable friend. Thank you. Thank you for listening to me

:33:12.:33:23.

and not taking the money out of Blackpool's budget, and urban area

:33:24.:33:29.

facing need. I am grateful for what my honourable friend has said.

:33:30.:33:33.

Blackpool has important pressures that need to be made and he has made

:33:34.:33:39.

representations, as indeed have his Local Authorities. It is true that

:33:40.:33:47.

some transitional relief should, at the expense of places like

:33:48.:33:50.

Blackpool, but I have been able to find a way that we can provide some

:33:51.:33:56.

relief for the years in which the reductions are sharpest without

:33:57.:34:00.

making the situation worse for places like Blackpool, that

:34:01.:34:05.

benefited from the settlement. I will give way to my honourable

:34:06.:34:09.

friend. I am grateful to my right honourable friend. This is a very

:34:10.:34:12.

progressive and good settlement for the long-term future of local

:34:13.:34:16.

government because it is devolution is. In that concept, in that

:34:17.:34:20.

thought, will you recognise and accept it is important not only that

:34:21.:34:24.

he has given transitional relief, which helps out a London boroughs

:34:25.:34:29.

like Bromley, but it is important London boroughs and authorities

:34:30.:34:33.

themselves up themselves by reducing their unit costs, in the way Bromley

:34:34.:34:38.

has, with the lowest in outer London? Absolutely right. I had the

:34:39.:34:42.

pleasure of spending some time with the Cabinet of Bromley Council, one

:34:43.:34:46.

of the most efficient in London and they point the way to how to deliver

:34:47.:34:52.

services valuable to the residents in a cost effective way. I am

:34:53.:34:57.

grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. We face cuts of

:34:58.:35:08.

15-17 of 4.9% compare to the average 2.8%. Despite that, transitional,

:35:09.:35:13.

despite his comments yesterday about looking at the way in which the

:35:14.:35:17.

graphics of particular areas, particularly with larger numbers of

:35:18.:35:21.

older people, Blackpool gets no transitional relief at all. There's

:35:22.:35:27.

any logic or justice in that? Of course there is. The transitional

:35:28.:35:31.

relief is for those authorities that had a sharp reduction in the grant

:35:32.:35:35.

than others. In the case of Blackpool, it had fitted to the tune

:35:36.:35:39.

of ?3 million. My honourable friend was wise enough to recognise that

:35:40.:35:44.

and to recognise the difference is going to make to the people of

:35:45.:35:48.

Blackpool. The honourable gentleman should think and do likewise.

:35:49.:35:55.

One of the most progressive things the Secretary of State has done is

:35:56.:35:58.

given local councils are four-year settlement, so they can view what

:35:59.:36:01.

their settlements will be into the future and not live from day to day,

:36:02.:36:05.

not knowing what their budget settlement would be next year. My

:36:06.:36:10.

honourable friend is right. This is one of the key requests that local

:36:11.:36:14.

government has made of central government for many years now and is

:36:15.:36:19.

constantly finding that request fell on deaf ears. It is something widely

:36:20.:36:23.

welcomed by councils right across the country, of all different party

:36:24.:36:27.

political control, that they will have the chance to look ahead and

:36:28.:36:32.

plan for the future. Let me make a bit of progress and then I will give

:36:33.:36:36.

way to some colleagues. Over the course of this Parliament,

:36:37.:36:42.

as the Institute for Fiscal Studies points out, the required savings,

:36:43.:36:45.

which I make clear councils will need to continue to make, the

:36:46.:36:51.

savings will be less than those required in the previous parliament.

:36:52.:36:55.

The Institute for Fiscal Studies reports the required savings of

:36:56.:37:00.

around 7% in real terms over the next four years is a substantially

:37:01.:37:04.

slower pace in cuts than councils had to deliver between 2009-10 to

:37:05.:37:13.

2015-16 when they were cut by 25% in real terms. I will give way to my

:37:14.:37:17.

honourable friend. I thank my right honourable friend for giving way. I

:37:18.:37:21.

wonder whether he would just confirm that in that process councils are

:37:22.:37:25.

still required to do things in a fundamentally different way, such as

:37:26.:37:31.

setting up trading joint ventures, as one council, they had done on

:37:32.:37:36.

Monday, or looking at uber type services. Yes, council should take

:37:37.:37:42.

the opportunities to be innovative. He and I served on the Bill

:37:43.:37:47.

committee of the localism Bill, which introduced a general power of

:37:48.:37:51.

competence for local councils, precisely so they could take

:37:52.:37:55.

decisions in the interests of their residents and contribute effectively

:37:56.:37:57.

to supply will give way to the honourable lady. Just before the

:37:58.:38:04.

Secretary of State gives way. The Secretary of State has been

:38:05.:38:06.

perfectly polite and courteous in giving way are very many times. This

:38:07.:38:12.

is a short debate. 24 people have indicated to me they would like to

:38:13.:38:17.

make speeches. They intend to sit here all afternoon, awaiting their

:38:18.:38:22.

turn to make speeches. There are many people who are making

:38:23.:38:25.

interventions which the Secretary of State has most courteously dealt

:38:26.:38:28.

with. Those people are taking part in the debate. They must be aware

:38:29.:38:32.

they are taking up the time of other people who will be waiting to speak

:38:33.:38:37.

later in the debate. If you make an intervention in this debate, you

:38:38.:38:41.

must remain, for most of the debate, and certainly be here for the

:38:42.:38:48.

windups. Secretary of State. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Given

:38:49.:38:53.

those on is, I will take the point from the honourable lady. I thank

:38:54.:39:00.

bit Secretary of State for giving way. Will he recognise the problems

:39:01.:39:04.

faced by Liverpool, which bases and 9% cut in funding next year, coming

:39:05.:39:11.

on top of a 58% cut since 2010? I would say to the honourable lady, I

:39:12.:39:15.

have been very clear that all councils need to continue to make

:39:16.:39:20.

savings. The way that we have conducted the settlements, I think

:39:21.:39:23.

she will know, has been fair across the country. The Institute for

:39:24.:39:28.

Fiscal Studies pointed that out. In fact, a council that she knows very

:39:29.:39:33.

well close by to her, Sefton Council, said the announcement in

:39:34.:39:36.

response to the cause of vision, they said the announcement that call

:39:37.:39:39.

spending power will be reduced by only half a percent between

:39:40.:39:47.

2015-2020 is better than we expected last summer. That is from her

:39:48.:39:51.

neighbouring council. I will give way to the honourable gentleman and

:39:52.:39:55.

then make some progress. I thank my honourable friend for making way and

:39:56.:39:59.

welcome the fair share review. Can I say to him, the rural share of --

:40:00.:40:06.

fair share review, we need to make sure funds keep coming across to not

:40:07.:40:10.

only help with the elderly population, but small schools are

:40:11.:40:15.

rubbish collection, all those things in rural areas which cost so much

:40:16.:40:19.

more to do. We need a fair deal and I look forward to him keeping up his

:40:20.:40:23.

good work. We want to see delivery actually happening. My honourable

:40:24.:40:27.

friend is absolutely right and you can add to those services,

:40:28.:40:33.

transport. That is why think it is overdue that the underlying formula

:40:34.:40:37.

should catch up with what has happened in many of our communities.

:40:38.:40:44.

Let me comment and highlight on four features of the settlement. First

:40:45.:40:48.

ball, for decades councils about to set annual budgets, without the

:40:49.:40:53.

knowledge of what they can expect in resources 12 months hence. That

:40:54.:40:58.

prevents long-term planning and promotes inefficiency, as plans and

:40:59.:41:02.

contracts have to be short-term, missing out on the economies that

:41:03.:41:06.

are possible if you can take a longer view. For the first time in

:41:07.:41:10.

the history of local government, this settlement gives indicative

:41:11.:41:13.

figures for the next four gears available to any council which

:41:14.:41:17.

chooses to and which can show that it can use the certainty to

:41:18.:41:20.

translate itself into efficiency savings. I will give way to my

:41:21.:41:25.

honourable friend. I am grateful to my right honourable friend. There is

:41:26.:41:32.

a deep hole on the island. Can the Minister work with the locals of all

:41:33.:41:38.

parties to ensure that we are finding solutions on these issues.

:41:39.:41:42.

Indeed. I pay tribute to my right honourable friend for the work he

:41:43.:41:46.

does as the island's MP, in bringing all of the leaders and the

:41:47.:41:52.

councillors in the island together, regardless of party political

:41:53.:41:54.

affiliation to make sure the best interest of the island are promoted.

:41:55.:41:58.

I look forward to visiting the Isle of Wight in his company to meet with

:41:59.:42:03.

the councillors and the offices. I will give way to the honourable

:42:04.:42:04.

gentleman. Staffordshire my County at least

:42:05.:42:16.

those make the transition with 5.68 million. Stoke-on-Trent gets

:42:17.:42:24.

nothing. 21.4 million. Read. Could the Secretary of State tell us why

:42:25.:42:29.

the South wins out. Very straightforward, the proportion of

:42:30.:42:31.

transitional relief is in proportion to the reduction of rates of all

:42:32.:42:36.

crime. Staffordshire have less than sorry. Purely mathematical. I would

:42:37.:42:44.

have thought the addition of nearly ?3 million to his budget would be

:42:45.:42:48.

welcomed by the council taxpayers, I know it has been welcomed. I will

:42:49.:42:57.

give way to my friend. I'm grateful to my right honourable friend for

:42:58.:43:00.

giving way, as he knows I welcome this agement wholeheartedly. Denied

:43:01.:43:05.

taking back to what he was saying about certainty, and counter

:43:06.:43:09.

perspective. Could he give more information about providing

:43:10.:43:13.

certainty for town councils they will be exempt from being capped

:43:14.:43:17.

with their precepts, as they are trying to work in greater concert

:43:18.:43:23.

with District Council. That parallel certainty will help to forge those

:43:24.:43:28.

deals. I am grateful for the intervention of my honourable

:43:29.:43:31.

friend. There is a lively debate as to whether the bigger town councils

:43:32.:43:37.

and parish councils should be part of the capping regime. I have

:43:38.:43:47.

resisted during them into that. I would look to parish and town 's

:43:48.:43:52.

councils to exercise economy, and recognise the services they provide

:43:53.:43:59.

a very much valued and paid for by council taxpayers. I will make some

:44:00.:44:09.

progress, as the Madam Deputy Speaker said, if I have time I will

:44:10.:44:14.

take the right honourable gentleman. The second feature of the

:44:15.:44:18.

settlement, we have pirate eyes spending on adult social care, the

:44:19.:44:21.

care we provide to elderly and venerable citizens. Honourable

:44:22.:44:30.

members grown and complain, but at requests of this government, this

:44:31.:44:34.

government has done something the previous government did not do,

:44:35.:44:38.

established funding arrangements; text elderly and vulnerable

:44:39.:44:42.

citizens. In September, in their submission to the spending review,

:44:43.:44:48.

the directors of adult social services, and the local government

:44:49.:44:52.

Association made a submission to the spending review. Adult social care,

:44:53.:44:58.

health and well-being commitments. 2015 spending review submission.

:44:59.:45:03.

These two organisations wrote to me to request an extra ?2.79 billion to

:45:04.:45:11.

be made available by 2020. With the reduction of the 2.2% Schalke

:45:12.:45:15.

precept, and the half million pounds made available to local councils.

:45:16.:45:21.

Three .5 billion will be available for adult social care by 2020. --

:45:22.:45:35.

3.5 billion. There are parents and grandparents living longer than

:45:36.:45:38.

anyone thought first possible. We need to pay for their care needs. It

:45:39.:45:42.

is no reflection on the efficiency of council if care costs increase.

:45:43.:45:54.

More elderly people are living. A ?23 increase in a band D property

:45:55.:46:02.

would provide better health care and councils are to be transparent about

:46:03.:46:07.

how the money is raised. By the end of this Parliament local government

:46:08.:46:11.

will retain all of the business rates it raises. A huge

:46:12.:46:15.

transformation in a world in which just three years ago, every penny

:46:16.:46:18.

councils collected from local businesses had to be handed over to

:46:19.:46:23.

the Treasury. This means councils were dependent on central government

:46:24.:46:27.

grants. Papastathopoulos Parliament, 80% of council expenditure came in

:46:28.:46:34.

grants from central government. By 2020 all local government spending

:46:35.:46:38.

will be raised by local government. Councils and local people will reap

:46:39.:46:41.

the benefits of providing economic growth, just as the government and

:46:42.:46:45.

country benefit from the rising prosperity these policies foster.

:46:46.:46:51.

With services financed locally, councils are more accountable to

:46:52.:46:54.

their electorates, rather than ministers in Whitehall. I say this

:46:55.:46:58.

is as it should be. I will give way to the honourable lady. I'm sorry,

:46:59.:47:04.

but the Secretary of State is being disingenuous. He knows that the

:47:05.:47:08.

whole local government finance system set up under the last

:47:09.:47:14.

government's local finance act takes no account of need. The social care

:47:15.:47:20.

precept will raise the most money in those areas which have the highest

:47:21.:47:25.

council tax base. Not in the areas where there is the greatest need,

:47:26.:47:29.

which tend to have the lowest council tax base. The honourable

:47:30.:47:34.

lady makes two interesting points. I agree it is too long since the

:47:35.:47:37.

underlying assessment of needs is updated. Over ten years. That is why

:47:38.:47:44.

I have proposed to go back to the drawing board and look at the needs

:47:45.:47:47.

and the resources available to each county. On the second aspect of the

:47:48.:47:52.

point, of course she is right, I have recognised the effective two

:47:53.:47:57.

percent precept is different in different parts of the country. That

:47:58.:48:02.

is why the better care fund allocation has been done on a

:48:03.:48:05.

different basis, precisely to take into account that. I would have

:48:06.:48:11.

thought she would welcome that. I will give way briefly to my

:48:12.:48:14.

honourable friend, and make some progress. I wonder if he recognises

:48:15.:48:20.

those councils in the future who are progressive, support business,

:48:21.:48:23.

provide housing for constituents will get more generous incomes than

:48:24.:48:29.

those who don't support business coming into the area. My honourable

:48:30.:48:34.

friend is right, that is a better way for councils to be facing. Bring

:48:35.:48:38.

in successful businesses into their area, benefit from that, rather than

:48:39.:48:44.

passing the whole of the benefits of that up to the Exchequer. I spoke a

:48:45.:48:49.

few moments ago about the increasing elderly population. As I was saying

:48:50.:48:55.

to the honourable lady, a decade has passed, seeing a significant

:48:56.:48:59.

demographic change, without the need based formula which determines how

:49:00.:49:06.

much of world -- well-run council would need to deliver those changes.

:49:07.:49:12.

They need to be patient. I need to make some process. This point was

:49:13.:49:16.

made repeatedly during the consultation with councils across

:49:17.:49:20.

the country, of all political leaderships. That is why I will

:49:21.:49:24.

conduct a fundamental review of the need based formula, to govern the

:49:25.:49:29.

changes I have described, to 100% business rates retention. It is not

:49:30.:49:34.

only the changing needs of different areas that need to be recognised.

:49:35.:49:38.

Also the differing costs of providing services to residents,

:49:39.:49:41.

depending on the area Council serves. As my honourable friend were

:49:42.:49:46.

saying, this year the rural services delivery grant, recognising the

:49:47.:49:52.

differing costs encountered by rival services in delivering services,

:49:53.:49:58.

brings ?15 million into council services. This increases that crime

:49:59.:50:04.

fivefold, to 18.5 million. It ensures there is no deterioration in

:50:05.:50:07.

funding to run areas, compared to urban areas, in the statutory

:50:08.:50:13.

settlement. I'll give way to the right honourable gentleman. However

:50:14.:50:18.

elegant strategies. We must take a moment to look at the results will

:50:19.:50:22.

stop asking insurer has been boosted by 2016-17, by 11.4% what it gets

:50:23.:50:29.

from this government. Birmingham has been battered, losing 10%. I welcome

:50:30.:50:35.

the ship to a needs -based formula, but he must see the massive

:50:36.:50:40.

discrepancies emerging, when great cities like Birmingham are being

:50:41.:50:44.

battered to bits. The honourable gentleman is an intelligent man, if

:50:45.:50:47.

he goes away and studies the changes in the formula, welcomed when I met

:50:48.:50:53.

with the former leader of his city's board. He recognised as the

:50:54.:50:59.

Institute for Fiscal Studies has done, an approach which looks at the

:51:00.:51:03.

whole of the resources available to local councils is a fair way to

:51:04.:51:11.

proceed. His city of Birmingham, on that basis, which I have enormous

:51:12.:51:17.

ambition and regard. It has benefited very significantly from

:51:18.:51:21.

that. The transitional grant is for places that did not benefit from the

:51:22.:51:25.

changes. I will give way to my honourable friend. Grateful to my

:51:26.:51:31.

right honourable friend. He has a soft and genuine manner throughout

:51:32.:51:35.

which I admire. I am furious by the interventions of the party opposite,

:51:36.:51:39.

who were in power, and skewed the whole system. They could not find a

:51:40.:51:44.

way, Madam Deputy Speaker, putting the money into labour areas without

:51:45.:51:49.

coming up for a false. They put density into the formula at four

:51:50.:51:56.

times the waiting for sparsity. There was no evidence for the need.

:51:57.:52:00.

They skew the system, it needs to be put right. My honourable friend is a

:52:01.:52:06.

very passionate advocate. He makes the case very well. All members

:52:07.:52:10.

across the House would recognise after ten years it is appropriate to

:52:11.:52:15.

look at the costs of providing services in different areas, and the

:52:16.:52:20.

changed demographic pressures that have occurred. I will give way for

:52:21.:52:24.

the last time to the honourable lady. I thank my right honourable

:52:25.:52:29.

friend. Isn't it true that the long standing and fairness has been a

:52:30.:52:33.

penalty against rural areas, in Devon where we have a low-wage

:52:34.:52:36.

economy, and the highest council taxes. This address is that, without

:52:37.:52:44.

penalising areas like Torbay. I would like to congratulate my right

:52:45.:52:47.

honourable friend. I'm grateful to my honourable friend. To every local

:52:48.:52:53.

government financial settlement, there is a Owsley needs to be struck

:52:54.:52:58.

between the different needs in areas in the country. The people who have

:52:59.:53:03.

reflected on the settlement I have proposed, including the local

:53:04.:53:06.

government Association, including the Succi for fiscal studies, they

:53:07.:53:14.

have recognised I have been fair -- including the Institute for Fiscal

:53:15.:53:16.

Studies, they have recognised I have been fair, recognising higher costs.

:53:17.:53:22.

Torbay has benefited from the change in the four wheeler. I have

:53:23.:53:26.

committed to make sure the new system for 100% business rates

:53:27.:53:31.

retention is funded on excepted analysis of the cost different

:53:32.:53:36.

authorities face. I will not give away. I will give way to the

:53:37.:53:39.

chairman of selecting Mitty in a few moments. Other important provisions

:53:40.:53:44.

of this settlement are the continuation of the new homes bonus.

:53:45.:53:47.

The existing scheme had not been guaranteed to continue through the

:53:48.:53:53.

period. It is been a valuable source of funding for councils, and those

:53:54.:53:57.

for the much-needed house-building. I'm happy the scheme will continue

:53:58.:54:02.

subject of the changes I am proposing. It will provide

:54:03.:54:04.

flexibility to councils with a record of keeping costs low, with a

:54:05.:54:12.

?5 a year council tax increase without the costs of a referendum.

:54:13.:54:16.

And subjecting well-run planning departments to increase fees to the

:54:17.:54:20.

rate of inflation, as long as the income is used to decrease the cross

:54:21.:54:23.

subsidy of the planning function by other council tax payers. Possibly

:54:24.:54:28.

the settlement makes clear, as revenue support grant decline, no

:54:29.:54:32.

council will have to make a contribution to other councils in

:54:33.:54:38.

2017, 18, or 19. Something in the provisional settlement was

:54:39.:54:40.

considered unfair by particular respondents. Let me say a few words

:54:41.:54:45.

about the reductions in revenue support grant is in the spending

:54:46.:54:49.

review period. We are moving from one world to another, a world in

:54:50.:54:53.

which the government grant accounted for 80% of local government

:54:54.:54:59.

expenditure in 2010. Moving to a world during this period, by 2020,

:55:00.:55:05.

only 5% of local government spending power will come from the revenue

:55:06.:55:10.

support grant. In the same period, with the limitations of 100%

:55:11.:55:14.

business they retention, proportional spending power that

:55:15.:55:16.

comes from local resources will grow. The reason for this change is

:55:17.:55:22.

not just financial, a council that is almost entirely dependent on

:55:23.:55:25.

central government will consciously or unconsciously end up looking to

:55:26.:55:29.

central government to be told what to do. Of course, from time

:55:30.:55:34.

immemorial, the government has attached strings to money gives out.

:55:35.:55:39.

My excellent predecessor, the right honourable member for Brentwood,

:55:40.:55:44.

abolished 7000 targets, measurements and indicators, that every council

:55:45.:55:50.

in the country had to subsidy eight -- subsidy eight -- subjugate itself

:55:51.:55:59.

to. That is in no way for the crowned cities and districts of this

:56:00.:56:02.

country to be governed. Places with a history as long as our country

:56:03.:56:08.

itself should not be reduced to meekly complying with the

:56:09.:56:11.

presumptuous demands of Whitehall. That is why you shift to funding

:56:12.:56:16.

that comes from the people, businesses that councils represent

:56:17.:56:19.

and serve, rather than all eyes been fixed on London is so vital. Our

:56:20.:56:24.

councils have been the strongest campaigners for this long overdue

:56:25.:56:28.

change. In a period of consultation which followed the provisional

:56:29.:56:32.

settlement, councils made the compelling case that the transition

:56:33.:56:35.

to this new world needs to be sensibly managed. In particular the

:56:36.:56:40.

first two years of the settlement would pose challenges. I agree with

:56:41.:56:45.

those views, which is why I have ensured the final settlement will

:56:46.:56:51.

include a transition fund to cover 2016, 2017, and 2018, worth ?150 a

:56:52.:56:56.

year -- ?150 million a year. On the point he was making about

:56:57.:57:05.

strings attached by government on funding, does he not think that we

:57:06.:57:11.

might be moving to a world that is more democratically responsive to

:57:12.:57:15.

the electorate, but businesses will now feel they are rather more

:57:16.:57:20.

important and have a starring role? It was a ludicrous situation in

:57:21.:57:27.

which local councils collected levies and sent them, so businesses

:57:28.:57:33.

did not feel they had the same connection with the council that

:57:34.:57:39.

taxpayers did. It is high time they should be rewarded and backed for

:57:40.:57:45.

that. That is what these reforms do. Thank you for giving way. As he

:57:46.:57:49.

knows, I agree with the proposition is important councils are able to

:57:50.:57:52.

raise more of their own finance locally. It is not if it should be

:57:53.:57:56.

done but how it should be done. A crucial element of that will be the

:57:57.:58:04.

needs assessment review. How does the Secretary of State intend to go

:58:05.:58:09.

about that? Will he fully involve the local government Association or

:58:10.:58:12.

will he consider an independent element, to make sure it is not seen

:58:13.:58:21.

as a stitch up? I think the honourable gentleman has known me

:58:22.:58:24.

long enough to know when I approached something I do it

:58:25.:58:28.

seriously, rigorously and take views from everyone who has a sensible

:58:29.:58:32.

view to contribute. I will certainly do that from local governments of

:58:33.:58:37.

all types. IOP and members of his select committee will contribute. As

:58:38.:58:40.

well as honourable members on both sides of this house, who have a

:58:41.:58:44.

great deal of experience and knowledge of the needs of their

:58:45.:58:49.

constituents. I will give way in a moment. No council under the

:58:50.:58:51.

proposed settlement will receive less than that was stated in the

:58:52.:58:56.

provisional settlement figures, but the transition fund will ease the

:58:57.:59:00.

transition from a system based on central government grants to one in

:59:01.:59:04.

which it is local sources that determine a council's reckoning. The

:59:05.:59:08.

funds will be applied in direct proportion to the difference that

:59:09.:59:13.

would have been experienced. It is a straightforward as that. What ever

:59:14.:59:17.

the conspiracy theories of the party opposite suggest. It was a proposal

:59:18.:59:22.

made by some Labour led authorities, including Lancashire. The transition

:59:23.:59:28.

fund will ease the pace of reductions in the first wing years

:59:29.:59:31.

of the spending review period, after which income from other sources will

:59:32.:59:38.

grow. The settlement is always important, it is the statutory act

:59:39.:59:42.

that allows councils to set their legal budgets for the year ahead the

:59:43.:59:45.

budgets that deliver the services are all of our constituents and all

:59:46.:59:49.

of us reliable stock this year the settlement contains some

:59:50.:59:52.

particularly important changes, indicative budgets that the entire

:59:53.:59:56.

spending review period, to make longer term planning a reality. A

:59:57.:00:00.

big increase in the funding for adult social care, one of the most

:00:01.:00:03.

important of our council's response abilities. Action to help rural

:00:04.:00:08.

areas along with a commitment all councils that the move to 100%

:00:09.:00:12.

business rate retention will be accompanied by a review of the needs

:00:13.:00:17.

-based formula. Transition funding secured to smooth the long overdue

:00:18.:00:20.

journey from over centralised state to a future where all money that is

:00:21.:00:26.

spent locally is generated locally. Multi-year budgets delivered, social

:00:27.:00:31.

care prioritise, rural needs acknowledge, a fair funding review

:00:32.:00:34.

launched and evolution of funding advanced. Deputy Speaker, I give

:00:35.:00:41.

this statement to the House. As on the order paper, before I called the

:00:42.:00:45.

honourable gentleman for the opposition. It will be obvious to

:00:46.:00:48.

the House that a great number of people wish to speak and we have

:00:49.:00:52.

limited time, so there will be a limit of five minutes on backbench

:00:53.:01:00.

speeches, but not on Mr Steve Reed. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:01:01.:01:03.

will do my best to keep it as brief as I can.

:01:04.:01:09.

It's always a pleasure to listen to the Secretary of State's engaging

:01:10.:01:12.

manner, but what is not so pleasant is listening to what he has to say.

:01:13.:01:17.

The Secretary of State repeated his claims this afternoon to a protected

:01:18.:01:22.

funding for councils over the next four years, but really there can't

:01:23.:01:27.

be anyone left who believes that any more. Not even his own MPs, judging

:01:28.:01:31.

from what we have heard from them over recent weeks. And no wonder,

:01:32.:01:36.

because the settlement from the assessment takes away ?1 in every ?3

:01:37.:01:42.

given to councils for funding core services. That is on top of cuts in

:01:43.:01:51.

excess of 40% that have already been imposed. On many councils it is in

:01:52.:01:56.

excess of 50% that have already been imposed. I will give way. I have

:01:57.:02:03.

tried to intervene on the Secretary of State. I can't believe what he

:02:04.:02:09.

said about social care, because it is just wrong. There is not an

:02:10.:02:14.

injection of cash into social care. There is only at the maximum ?400

:02:15.:02:19.

million this year. The funding is uncertain, risky and back loaded and

:02:20.:02:24.

the LGA has asked him if he will inject ?700 million in the next two

:02:25.:02:28.

years because they are so concerned. There was an even funding for their

:02:29.:02:32.

own policy of the national living wage increases. So let's not have

:02:33.:02:36.

this thing about social care. I am grateful to my honourable

:02:37.:02:40.

friend, she is absolutely right and I will pick up on those points later

:02:41.:02:45.

in my own contribution. Returning to the point about the settlement

:02:46.:02:48.

funding assessment, because increases elsewhere do not plug the

:02:49.:02:53.

gap of those cuts, it will result in cuts to front line services. Cuts to

:02:54.:03:00.

youth services, fixing potholes, fixing the streets, emptying the

:03:01.:03:03.

bins, looking after Parks, keeping the street lights on at night,

:03:04.:03:10.

libraries, museums, rural bus services. He hasn't protected any of

:03:11.:03:14.

these. He is sharp and the knife. I will give way. Councils like

:03:15.:03:23.

Coventry, over the 10-year period will lose 60% of their income, in

:03:24.:03:30.

terms of grants, 80 million. That is an unnecessary hardship in Coventry.

:03:31.:03:35.

When the Secretary of State talks about business rates, it was the

:03:36.:03:38.

previous Conservative government that changed business rates and more

:03:39.:03:44.

importantly he is passing the buck, blaming police and social care on

:03:45.:03:47.

Local Authorities on three or four years down the line he will come in

:03:48.:03:55.

and cap it. Devolving the blame for their cuts as part of what the

:03:56.:03:58.

Government are up to with this settlement. As my honourable friend

:03:59.:04:02.

mentioned earlier, some funding for social care has been handed over to

:04:03.:04:06.

councils. That certainly sounds welcome, but according to the Tory

:04:07.:04:10.

lead local government Association, they have handed over ?1 billion

:04:11.:04:15.

funding black coal. The Government has told councils to impose a 2%

:04:16.:04:21.

council tax rise every year for four years, to plug that gap. But even

:04:22.:04:24.

that doesn't raise anywhere near enough to pay for their care that

:04:25.:04:32.

older people need. And it raises the least money in the poorest areas,

:04:33.:04:37.

that need the funding modes. The Government has cut the funding then

:04:38.:04:41.

handed it over to councils to take the blame. I give way to my

:04:42.:04:45.

honourable friend. Of course, the point he makes is exactly the

:04:46.:04:51.

problem is that ten side Boro find themselves in. They have a ?16

:04:52.:04:58.

million social care deficit, raising 2% on the council tax, based on 100%

:04:59.:05:03.

collection, which isn't going to happen, will bring into Thamesside

:05:04.:05:07.

?1.4 million. These sums don't add up.

:05:08.:05:12.

My honourable friend making a very graphic illustration of the point I

:05:13.:05:18.

was making. What all of this means, is denying vulnerable, older and

:05:19.:05:22.

disabled people the home care that they need. It means turning away

:05:23.:05:26.

freight will older people who can't clean their own homes or cook their

:05:27.:05:31.

own food. It means closing down daycare centres. It means cutting

:05:32.:05:36.

back on home care visits. It means leaving people stuck in hospital

:05:37.:05:39.

beds, because they have no support to go to at home. With a knock-on

:05:40.:05:45.

effectively than in hospital waiting times for other patients. I will

:05:46.:05:49.

give way. I am grateful to my honourable

:05:50.:05:52.

friend for giving way. Doesn't he think it is rather bizarre that the

:05:53.:05:55.

Secretary of State should be trumpeting his reviews for the

:05:56.:05:58.

future for elderly people in places like Blackpool where we have a

:05:59.:06:02.

larger than average number of older and disabled people but he's

:06:03.:06:05.

prepared to identify the savage cuts that we are having in adult social

:06:06.:06:11.

care in Blackpool, which is leading exactly to the sort of situations he

:06:12.:06:15.

is describing. I think what is really worrying is the Secretary of

:06:16.:06:18.

State doesn't really seem to understand what is going on in

:06:19.:06:21.

councils and public services across the country. But even Tory MPs were

:06:22.:06:27.

terrified of what voters would make of all of this. They threatened to

:06:28.:06:32.

vote it down. So on Monday of this week the Secretary of State came to

:06:33.:06:36.

the chamber with a fix to head off the rebellion. He announced he had

:06:37.:06:41.

found ?300 million down the back of so far. He wouldn't tell us where it

:06:42.:06:45.

had come from. Denny handed nearly all of it to the wealthiest Tory

:06:46.:06:51.

councils as a sweetener, just weeks before the council elections. --

:06:52.:06:55.

then he handled it. 85% of that money goes to Tory run areas and 5%,

:06:56.:07:03.

barely 5%, to Labour run areas, despite the fact that those Labour

:07:04.:07:08.

areas have suffered far bigger cut since 2010. Whatever happened to one

:07:09.:07:11.

nation Tories? What about the Northern Powerhouse? If the word

:07:12.:07:16.

gerrymander didn't already exist we would have to invent it to describe

:07:17.:07:22.

a fix like this. I am grateful to the Shadow Minister for giving way.

:07:23.:07:25.

He is giving a powerful speech, but I think it is factually incorrect.

:07:26.:07:30.

As he will know, rural areas tend to have the older as populations and

:07:31.:07:35.

yet when this Prime Minister came to power there was a 50% premium going

:07:36.:07:40.

to urban councils with much younger populations, whatever the future

:07:41.:07:43.

might hold for them, they were an old then, they didn't have the need,

:07:44.:07:47.

rural areas did on his party did nothing for justice.

:07:48.:07:51.

What we need is a funding formula based on need. These people have had

:07:52.:07:55.

six years to give us that and they clearly haven't done it. I give way.

:07:56.:08:00.

I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. Birmingham

:08:01.:08:03.

has been hit by the biggest cuts, half ?1 billion,. The city put a

:08:04.:08:10.

fair case forward, how can it be right that Birmingham got not 1p in

:08:11.:08:17.

transitional funding, but sorry got 12 million and Cheshire East, the

:08:18.:08:22.

Chancellor of the Exchequer's constituency, got 3 million. It is

:08:23.:08:25.

simply not fair. I think the honourable gentleman

:08:26.:08:29.

makes an important point. But sorry got more than 12 million, -- Surrey.

:08:30.:08:41.

Drain for most of any council, next door to where The Right Honourable

:08:42.:08:46.

gentleman... Gets the most. It gets the most, with ?24 million.

:08:47.:08:54.

Hampshire, 19 million, Hertfordshire 14 million. And the Prime Minister's

:08:55.:08:59.

campaigning mother, admirable woman that she is, will be very pleased to

:09:00.:09:03.

see that Oxfordshire gets ?9 million. Now, I'm not criticising

:09:04.:09:10.

what those councils are getting. They didn't deserve the scale of the

:09:11.:09:14.

cuts this government had lined up for them, but then neither did

:09:15.:09:21.

Middlesbrough, Knowsley, Hull, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham,

:09:22.:09:23.

Darlington or all the other board a private areas that has suffered far

:09:24.:09:28.

deeper cuts in the last six years but been offered absolutely no help

:09:29.:09:33.

whatsoever. I give way. I am grateful to the honourable

:09:34.:09:39.

gentleman. If he is going to be a local government minister aspiring

:09:40.:09:42.

to be a government minister, a bit of geography might help. I would

:09:43.:09:48.

bring him to Tunbridge Wells and show him that place. I'm sure he is

:09:49.:09:55.

familiar with Durham county council. In a submission to the consultation

:09:56.:09:59.

they said, in our view, no authority can now claim that this approach is

:10:00.:10:05.

unfair. Does he agree with that? I spoke to at least 20 or 30 council

:10:06.:10:10.

leaders over the weekend that the Labour Party conference and not a

:10:11.:10:14.

single one of them thought the approach the honourable gentleman is

:10:15.:10:18.

taking is fair. If you speak to leaders of Tory councils, I'm afraid

:10:19.:10:22.

they agree with me and not with the honourable gentleman. I will give

:10:23.:10:26.

way. I am very grateful to my honourable

:10:27.:10:30.

friend for giving way. I have absolutely no idea what the

:10:31.:10:32.

Secretary of State is saying or where he got it from because the

:10:33.:10:36.

headlines in our local paper say funding settlement for Durham

:10:37.:10:40.

slammed as unfair by leaders of the council. LAUGHTER

:10:41.:10:57.

The honourable gentleman has to give way to the Secretary of State. The

:10:58.:11:03.

way this money has been distributed is desperately unfair. The

:11:04.:11:07.

honourable lady asked 3M is a reasonable question. The quote I've

:11:08.:11:12.

taken comes from Durham County Council's response to the 20 16th

:11:13.:11:16.

local finance settlement consultation. The new approach is

:11:17.:11:24.

fair and should not be reversed. That is a misinterpretation of what

:11:25.:11:32.

label council leaders are saying. The truth of it is, however hard,

:11:33.:11:39.

and however much they think this pre-council election sweetener will

:11:40.:11:43.

work, the rural services network Highclere this political one will

:11:44.:11:49.

not change the dire financial crisis facing even rural councils over the

:11:50.:11:59.

next four years. Has the Secretary of State had any indications from

:12:00.:12:06.

metropolitan councils whether they believe it is fair? Only three

:12:07.:12:11.

metropolitan councils will get funding, two those happened to be

:12:12.:12:21.

two conservative districts. I was speaking over the weekend with the

:12:22.:12:26.

leader of the city, Newcastle upon Tyne, the Debaty layer of Liverpool

:12:27.:12:31.

and the leader of Leeds City Council, all of those believed what

:12:32.:12:34.

the gap that is doing is devastating local services. I'm going to make

:12:35.:12:40.

some progress, I am not going to give way again. I'm going to

:12:41.:12:50.

continue. Tory MPs, there are Tory MPs representing areas that get

:12:51.:12:53.

nothing out of this additional amount of money. Areas like Stockton

:12:54.:13:01.

on Tees, Nuneaton, for instance. They need to ask themselves what

:13:02.:13:05.

their voters will think of MPs who vote for deep cuts in council tax

:13:06.:13:11.

rises for their own areas, but throw millions are wealthier areas like

:13:12.:13:17.

Tunbridge Wells. I have let the Secretary of State coming twice, I

:13:18.:13:24.

am going to continue. -- come in. I'm going to turn to council tax. On

:13:25.:13:31.

Monday the Secretary of State to 90 had risen to councils telling them

:13:32.:13:36.

to put up council tax. Indeed, it was not physically to stating

:13:37.:13:39.

written the letter, it was his Minister of State. The honourable

:13:40.:13:48.

member for Nuneaton. Order, order? The House is making far too much

:13:49.:13:55.

noise. Both the honourable gentlemans have important things to

:13:56.:13:58.

say. Let them fight it out, don't make so much noise. Barracking is

:13:59.:14:03.

not going to stop me saying the things in this chamber that need to

:14:04.:14:07.

be said. I have a copy of the letter from the Minister of State, the

:14:08.:14:12.

honourable member for Nuneaton, sent to councils with the provisional

:14:13.:14:16.

settlement. The spreadsheets it links to were sent to every town

:14:17.:14:21.

Hall, and they include figures with the garment's expectation that

:14:22.:14:28.

councils will put council tax up by 1.57% every year for four years. On

:14:29.:14:33.

top of that, in posing a further two percent rise to help plug the gap

:14:34.:14:37.

from the government's failure to properly fund social care. 3.75% a

:14:38.:14:49.

year for every year for four years. It is a council tax hike of well

:14:50.:14:54.

over 20%. Costing the average band De council taxpayer around three

:14:55.:15:02.

more a year. If you let me make this point I will give way. It is very

:15:03.:15:06.

hard indeed to square that massive Tory tax hike with a Tory manifesto

:15:07.:15:12.

pledge to keep council tax as low as possible. They are breaking their

:15:13.:15:20.

promises, hiking council tax up. Thank my honourable friend, he is

:15:21.:15:23.

making the very important point about council tax. During the

:15:24.:15:28.

statement earlier in the week, the Secretary of State failed to

:15:29.:15:32.

understand different councils have different council tax bases. He told

:15:33.:15:38.

me to go away and speak to Trafford, to see how they are managing their

:15:39.:15:45.

affairs. Can I tell him there is a 27.4% difference in council tax base

:15:46.:15:51.

between tame side and Trafford. Isn't that inherent in the

:15:52.:15:55.

unfairness in? It is one of the many ways in which this settlement is

:15:56.:16:04.

deeply unfair. I thank my honourable friend, regarding the transitional

:16:05.:16:10.

health, the situation is worse than he described. In

:16:11.:16:15.

Newcastle-under-Lyme, Stoke-on-Trent, in already well

:16:16.:16:17.

rewarded Conservative counties in the South, conservative districts

:16:18.:16:22.

will be benefiting as well. Sense organs, Sevenoaks, Surrey Heath,

:16:23.:16:27.

does my honourable friend think that is right and fair? 85% of Tory

:16:28.:16:34.

councils, 5% of Labour councils. We can all see what they are up to.

:16:35.:16:38.

Everybody's listening to the debate can see what they're up to. Turning

:16:39.:16:43.

back to the council tax rises they are imposing over the next five

:16:44.:16:48.

years. What do people get for this extra money the Tories are taking

:16:49.:16:52.

off them? Do their streets get swept more often, or their bins emptied

:16:53.:16:56.

more regularly, or their libraries save? Older people looked after

:16:57.:17:02.

properly? It does not. The government cut council funding, the

:17:03.:17:09.

extra money they will take people does not make up for what the

:17:10.:17:13.

Chancellor has cut. Council taxpayers will pay more, get less,

:17:14.:17:19.

Tory value for money. Tax hikes and service cuts. Picking people's

:17:20.:17:25.

pockets while damaging the quality-of-life in every community

:17:26.:17:29.

up and down the country. That Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the story of

:17:30.:17:34.

this funding settlement. Why every member of this House should vote

:17:35.:17:37.

against it this evening. 20% council tax hike designed in Downing Street.

:17:38.:17:44.

Services cut to the bone. ?300 million handed to wealthier areas,

:17:45.:17:51.

in a desperate bid to buy off a Tory rebellion on their own backbenches.

:17:52.:17:57.

Pay more, but get less from these tax hiking, pledge breaking,

:17:58.:18:04.

self-serving Tories. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It costs more

:18:05.:18:11.

to deliver public services on an island with no link to the mainland.

:18:12.:18:16.

For instance, we cannot get help from the mainland Fire Services, in

:18:17.:18:24.

the event of major emergencies in less than an hour. Capabilities must

:18:25.:18:29.

be maintained to a higher level to maintain the safety of islanders and

:18:30.:18:33.

their visitors. One example of the extra costs. There are many others

:18:34.:18:38.

which have never been properly recognised in successive local

:18:39.:18:45.

government funding formulas. Back in 2002, the Isle of Wight was set to

:18:46.:18:48.

lose the additional costs allowance. The islanders were with much more

:18:49.:18:57.

affluent Hampshire. The Labour government decided to change the

:18:58.:19:01.

rules, resulting in the island to be too small to qualify on its own. The

:19:02.:19:10.

formula Mac OS the Liberal council and I had to explain why the council

:19:11.:19:15.

could not manage without it. A letter review of a major study of

:19:16.:19:19.

local government finance, published in 1996, Professor Elliott

:19:20.:19:28.

recommending further research was needed to disparities in costs of

:19:29.:19:36.

two councils, the Isle of Wight and the Isle of silly. The research was

:19:37.:19:45.

not carried out. The Minister for regions eventually agreed that we

:19:46.:19:53.

would continue to receive the ACA. It did not recognise the extra cost

:19:54.:19:56.

of delivering services on the island. Nevertheless we will

:19:57.:20:00.

continue to receive the 3 million or so a year. Over the years the method

:20:01.:20:05.

of funding local government has changed. The benefit of the island

:20:06.:20:11.

getting the ACA remained buried in the unfathomable formula that made

:20:12.:20:18.

up the annual settlement will stop although I'm told the value

:20:19.:20:21.

decreases over the years. When the move away from the government grant,

:20:22.:20:26.

to local funding was announced. It became clear this would make the

:20:27.:20:31.

Isle of Wight Council difficult, even more difficult, even more

:20:32.:20:36.

severe. They could not find a way to carry on beyond this year. For the

:20:37.:20:43.

first time in many years, the Isle of Wight Council asked me to assist

:20:44.:20:46.

them to achieve a number of specific, sensible proposals that

:20:47.:20:53.

would help them to change. Madam Deputy Speaker, the announcement

:20:54.:20:57.

made on Monday did not help the island, because quite simply our

:20:58.:21:03.

issues are unique. Something that the Minister has recognised, even

:21:04.:21:07.

the Prime Minister has recognised. We do not qualify for transitional

:21:08.:21:11.

help, because the settlement based on the existing formula did not

:21:12.:21:16.

disadvantage us. It was the formula itself that is advantage does. We do

:21:17.:21:22.

not qualify for the rural spots to grind, because you cannot live very

:21:23.:21:28.

far from a town on an island only 23 miles by 13. With the announcement

:21:29.:21:32.

there was to be a fair funding review, I relied that my honourable

:21:33.:21:36.

friend and my right honourable friend relies there were some

:21:37.:21:40.

problems unresolved, even by the revised settlement. If I can get the

:21:41.:21:47.

real costs of delivering services on an island recognised, we will find a

:21:48.:21:51.

long-term solution to a very long-term problem. We still have the

:21:52.:21:57.

problem of getting to the review. The future of the Isle of Wight

:21:58.:22:02.

Council beyond this year was not secure. Money is in short supply.

:22:03.:22:07.

When there is not so much to go around, it is then that resources

:22:08.:22:14.

must be shared more fully. I am very grateful for the discussions I've

:22:15.:22:18.

with my right honourable friend, the Secretary of State, about this

:22:19.:22:21.

problem. I thank him very much for his offer to visit the island and

:22:22.:22:25.

find the necessary flexibility is for the Council to find a way

:22:26.:22:30.

through the challenges until a fair funding settlement can be put in

:22:31.:22:40.

place. I will be honest, I have decided against the settlement, but

:22:41.:22:44.

based on our discussions, I will be supporting the government this year.

:22:45.:22:49.

I trust them to deliver on those proposals over the coming months. I

:22:50.:22:55.

must say, I'm very proud it is a Conservative government doing what

:22:56.:23:00.

was not done for the past ten years, and I'm looking forward to working

:23:01.:23:03.

with the government and on a cross-party basis on the island for

:23:04.:23:07.

the benefit of the Isle of Wight and all the islanders. To try and look

:23:08.:23:16.

at the positive elements first. I want to be fair and evenhanded in

:23:17.:23:22.

these matters. First of all we ought to welcome the settlement on offer,

:23:23.:23:28.

something that local government has been asking for some time. We're not

:23:29.:23:33.

quite sure what the efficiency plans have to be, and what local councils

:23:34.:23:40.

have to do to achieve it, but it seems a good starting point. I

:23:41.:23:43.

welcome the money for social care as well. I have some questions as to

:23:44.:23:48.

how it will work, and I have a correspondence with the Secretary of

:23:49.:23:51.

State and the local government Association, who clearly asked for

:23:52.:23:57.

more money than they got in traditional spending, which was not

:23:58.:24:00.

recognised. I welcome the fact that local councils will be able to raise

:24:01.:24:04.

more money through council tax, it is right in principle that more

:24:05.:24:10.

local services are paid for by local taxes, something I believe in is a

:24:11.:24:19.

local list. The question, the better care of back-end loaded, pressures

:24:20.:24:26.

and end as well. The Secretary of State mentioned in his reply, the

:24:27.:24:30.

statement early on, the issue of the two percent increase in council tax

:24:31.:24:36.

raising more money in richer areas, he said it would be addressed by how

:24:37.:24:41.

the better care fund would be distributed. Philippe at something

:24:42.:24:45.

in the library of the House, explaining how that will be done. On

:24:46.:24:50.

that very point, it is the key issue talking about. For two years there

:24:51.:24:54.

is hardly anything from the better care fund. ?400 million this year

:24:55.:25:01.

maximum, nothing from the better care fund, 100 million. They have

:25:02.:25:08.

asked for ?700 to be released to cover that was the funding gap is

:25:09.:25:13.

increased by ?70 million a year. I thank my honourable friend for that.

:25:14.:25:19.

The next point and intimate, despite looking at how the better care fund

:25:20.:25:22.

is distributed, more of that money could be brought forward, to at

:25:23.:25:29.

least 2017, 18, for the next financial year. It is the weight is

:25:30.:25:33.

back-end loaded, which is real problem.

:25:34.:25:38.

The local government Association has drawn my attention to the fact that

:25:39.:25:46.

council tax is due to rise by 7.8%. Can they describe how they have done

:25:47.:25:50.

that calculation over the spending period? It seems a very big increase

:25:51.:25:56.

indeed, the number of properties from which council tax will be

:25:57.:26:00.

raised from. And finally, to what extends have the Government taken

:26:01.:26:04.

the accountability of clinical commissioning groups to help local

:26:05.:26:08.

governments with their social care spending. In Sheffield they have

:26:09.:26:13.

indicated they are now facing a substantial reduction in their

:26:14.:26:17.

funding next year. This year they are helping the council by ?9

:26:18.:26:25.

million transfer funding. With that money is removed, any money from the

:26:26.:26:33.

better care fund won't substitute it. That is the cross departmental

:26:34.:26:37.

work that needs addressing. Can I say to the Secretary of State some

:26:38.:26:40.

of the issues that are causing concern. The cuts that are going to

:26:41.:26:45.

be made, and there are going to be cuts as a result of this settlement,

:26:46.:26:50.

although some people will argue they are less severe than the previous,

:26:51.:26:53.

they come on top of the once previously made. In the last

:26:54.:26:57.

government when the majority of the cuts were on the metropolitan areas,

:26:58.:27:01.

where the greatest needs and greatest problems well, we never

:27:02.:27:06.

once had mention of a transitional arrangement. Never once transitional

:27:07.:27:10.

extra help to help councils in that situation. It has only come about

:27:11.:27:13.

now because the Government has developed this core spending power,

:27:14.:27:20.

which includes council tax. Council tax is raised by the Richard

:27:21.:27:23.

councils, therefore they are the ones who have suffered a bigger

:27:24.:27:28.

reduction as a result of the initial spending announcement and now there

:27:29.:27:31.

is a transitional funding arrangement in place for them. I

:27:32.:27:35.

think his memory is letting him down. He will remember in the last

:27:36.:27:39.

parliament there was a series of tariffs and top ups, to stop the

:27:40.:27:45.

bigger cuts in authorities. That was top sliced from the settlement. What

:27:46.:27:50.

I have been able to do, recommended by many authorities, including

:27:51.:27:53.

Labour authorities, is not to do the same as Abba bring you money in from

:27:54.:27:59.

outside the settlement. I think last time there was a series of ceilings

:28:00.:28:04.

and safety nets, traditional in the way government finance operates. I

:28:05.:28:07.

never remember a settlement coming back to the House after the initial

:28:08.:28:12.

settlement, finding extra money in this way, doubt Labour councils,

:28:13.:28:16.

receiving major cuts in metropolitan areas. I also want to ask the

:28:17.:28:20.

Secretary of State, when this funding comes to an end after the

:28:21.:28:24.

first Rennes years, what happens? Will the money be found from

:28:25.:28:27.

somewhere else or will it be absorbed into this new review of

:28:28.:28:32.

needs? He announced he was going to effectively end the arrangement

:28:33.:28:36.

where there was going to be negative are SG towards the end of the

:28:37.:28:40.

settlement, how is that money going to be found? The removal of RSG?

:28:41.:28:46.

Which councils are going to pay for that all will money be found again

:28:47.:28:50.

from outside? I think it would be very helpful if that was explained.

:28:51.:28:54.

The way in which the needs assessment review is carried out is

:28:55.:28:58.

absolutely crucial. I will ask the Secretary of State, he has promised

:28:59.:29:03.

to involve the select committee, the local government Association, would

:29:04.:29:06.

he consider some independent element in this? Maybe Nish on all --

:29:07.:29:17.

initial stages done by an independent party? And how can we

:29:18.:29:23.

assess this process when we don't know the other grants. When will the

:29:24.:29:26.

public health grant be announced so they will know what they can spend

:29:27.:29:30.

there? Returning to my own authority of Sheffield, looking at what is

:29:31.:29:36.

happening there. 4.3% cut in spending power, bigger than the

:29:37.:29:41.

national average of 2.8. A cut in RSG. The reality is the Sheffield

:29:42.:29:46.

another ?50 million of cuts in their services. Cuts in RSG, with extra

:29:47.:29:53.

spending needs coming on stream means a ?50 million cut in services.

:29:54.:29:58.

It is a very challenging settlement, even for an official and counsellor

:29:59.:30:04.

at Sheffield. We should be proud of local government, with the way it

:30:05.:30:11.

has dealt with challenging spending cuts, better than central

:30:12.:30:14.

government, but these cuts they are now facing are on top of the cuts

:30:15.:30:17.

they have already had. They are going to meet more library closures,

:30:18.:30:23.

worsened services in a whole number of aspects. As chairman of the

:30:24.:30:28.

select committee a comeback to something positive. I want the

:30:29.:30:32.

committee to work with this Secretary of State so that when the

:30:33.:30:36.

new funding arrangements come into place at the end of this Parliament

:30:37.:30:40.

that we work closely together to make sure the arrangement is put in

:30:41.:30:47.

place in the best place possible. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Like

:30:48.:30:51.

many members of this house I first cut my teeth in politics in local

:30:52.:30:58.

government. I was elected in 2009. It is partly because of that that I

:30:59.:31:02.

simply don't recognise the rhetoric we continue get from the party upset

:31:03.:31:05.

that somehow this government is seeking to undermine or seeking to

:31:06.:31:11.

destroy local government. That doesn't stand up to scrutiny. It is

:31:12.:31:16.

this government delivering the changes to local government that

:31:17.:31:21.

they have been asking for for many years. At the heart of that is

:31:22.:31:27.

devolution. Devolving power to cities and regions up and down the

:31:28.:31:30.

country. We see that in Cornwall. I will make a bit of progress but give

:31:31.:31:36.

way in a moment. In Cornwall we are delivering an historic devolution

:31:37.:31:39.

deal for Cornwall, the first rural area to get a devolution deal for

:31:40.:31:45.

supper people of Cornwall have been asking for this for many years. It

:31:46.:31:48.

is this government that is delivering this. So it doesn't bear

:31:49.:31:53.

scrutiny that somehow we don't believe in local government as the

:31:54.:31:57.

party upset would have people believe. Why would we be giving more

:31:58.:32:01.

powers to local government, if we didn't believe in them and trust

:32:02.:32:05.

them to deliver the services question what I will give way. Thank

:32:06.:32:09.

you for giving way. I don't and anyone on this side is saying that,

:32:10.:32:14.

but it is surprising if you take the example of Greater Manchester, only

:32:15.:32:19.

one council, Trafford, is benefiting from the transitional funds. Tory

:32:20.:32:23.

Trafford. I was a councillor in Trafford. I can say that the council

:32:24.:32:33.

leader, Sean, who the Secretary of State has referred to twice this

:32:34.:32:40.

week as Stephen. It is hardly helping the devolution plans to pick

:32:41.:32:46.

out one authority and give them such large funds. Before the honourable

:32:47.:32:49.

gentleman answers the intervention, it is far too long. We have hardly

:32:50.:32:55.

any time. If honourable members make long interventions they are stopping

:32:56.:32:59.

their colleagues from speaking. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:33:00.:33:03.

thank the honourable lady for allowing the intervention. I will

:33:04.:33:06.

give way. My honourable friend giving way. I don't know why the

:33:07.:33:11.

honourable lady is confused. I know Sean very well, I have never been in

:33:12.:33:16.

any doubt as to his name. Thank you very much. I will come on

:33:17.:33:21.

to address the point of funding now. I am happy to place on record that

:33:22.:33:26.

as of Monday morning I would have been one of the members on this side

:33:27.:33:30.

of the House who this evening was prepared to walk through the no

:33:31.:33:33.

lobby and vote against the Government. That was quite simply

:33:34.:33:36.

because the settlement that was proposed was unfair to rural areas.

:33:37.:33:42.

It widened the gap on the Government's funding between rural

:33:43.:33:45.

and urban areas. As someone who campaigned in the election

:33:46.:33:49.

passionately that I would stand up for Cornwall as a rural area and

:33:50.:33:54.

seek a fairer funding deal for Cornwall, I was not prepared to

:33:55.:33:57.

support what was proposed by way of the settlement. This is despite the

:33:58.:34:02.

fact that we all know it is well established that rural areas for

:34:03.:34:05.

many years, for decades in fact, have had the raw end of the deal

:34:06.:34:09.

from central government. This is despite the fact that we know that

:34:10.:34:17.

our rural areas have some of the highest areas of deprivation in the

:34:18.:34:21.

country. An ageing population and an increased pressure that puts on the

:34:22.:34:24.

delivery of services, the increased demand it creates and the additional

:34:25.:34:28.

challenge on cost of delivering those services in a rural setting.

:34:29.:34:33.

Yet places such as Cornwall have had to accept lower levels of funding,

:34:34.:34:37.

not just for our local government but for things like our schools and

:34:38.:34:41.

police funding for many, many years. I am proud it is this government,

:34:42.:34:45.

under the leadership of my right honourable friend the Prime

:34:46.:34:48.

Minister, that has started to address that issue after too long.

:34:49.:34:53.

That we have started to see extra money put into our schools, Andrew

:34:54.:34:56.

Durutalo this is delivering plan, to close the gap in Local Authority

:34:57.:35:02.

funding. Therefore it was to my disappointment, when I looked at

:35:03.:35:08.

what was being proposed, that it would have widened the gap and

:35:09.:35:11.

started to undo much of the good work the Government has already

:35:12.:35:16.

begun. I could not have supported a financial settlement that was going

:35:17.:35:20.

to make an unfair system even more unfair to rural areas.

:35:21.:35:25.

If I had gone through the no lobby tonight, it would have been my first

:35:26.:35:33.

rebellion against the Government. And as someone who does have a

:35:34.:35:37.

slightly inherent rebellious streak in my nature, I have to say I am

:35:38.:35:41.

slightly disappointed that my rebellion will have to wait for

:35:42.:35:45.

another occasion, because I am delighted to say that the Secretary

:35:46.:35:51.

of State has listened to the many, many voices from across the House,

:35:52.:35:55.

from rural areas who highlighted the fact that what was being proposed

:35:56.:35:59.

was simply unacceptable to rural areas. I want to place on record my

:36:00.:36:05.

thanks to him for the way he has conducted this consultation that he

:36:06.:36:11.

met with me and my Cornish colleagues and listen to our

:36:12.:36:14.

concerns. I'm not sure I'm prepared to go as far as the honourable

:36:15.:36:20.

member for Dorset North, who offered a wet kiss, but I want to place on

:36:21.:36:25.

record my very great gratitude for the way he has listened to our

:36:26.:36:31.

concerns and come forward with proposals to address those concerns.

:36:32.:36:38.

I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. The vast majority of

:36:39.:36:41.

north-east councils, like Northumberland, will get nothing

:36:42.:36:45.

from the transitional funds and the argument he appears to be confirming

:36:46.:36:49.

in the speech today is the decision taken by the Secretary of State to

:36:50.:36:55.

grant transitional funding are to stave off a rebellion rather than

:36:56.:36:59.

giving it to Local Authorities that leave it the most. I thank the

:37:00.:37:03.

honourable lady for her intervention. But the cases made

:37:04.:37:06.

about rural constituencies, whether funding was going to widen the gap

:37:07.:37:11.

that we had begun to close. That was the issue that was at stake here. So

:37:12.:37:16.

I am delighted that not notably have funds been made available to make

:37:17.:37:24.

sure the gap doesn't get any wider, but more report on than the money

:37:25.:37:27.

and made available is the promise of a comprehensive review of the cost

:37:28.:37:32.

of delivering services. That gives us the opportunity to establish that

:37:33.:37:35.

in the rural areas it does cost more to deliver the same services than it

:37:36.:37:41.

does in urban areas, and therefore... I will give way. My

:37:42.:37:46.

honourable friend is right about the fundamental reassessment. But does

:37:47.:37:50.

he share my disappointment that repeatedly in January the opposition

:37:51.:37:53.

spokesman refused to sign up to closing the gap?

:37:54.:37:56.

I couldn't agree more with my honourable friend. We need to

:37:57.:38:00.

address the issue and the review gives us the opportunity we have

:38:01.:38:04.

asked the time and time again to establish the true cost and night I

:38:05.:38:07.

will be happy to be supporting the Government this motion. Louise

:38:08.:38:17.

Ellman. Thank you. Liverpool is one of the most deprived Local

:38:18.:38:21.

Authorities. It is also entrepreneurial, always ready to

:38:22.:38:25.

adapt to new circumstances and welcoming innovation. Despite the

:38:26.:38:34.

valiant efforts of the mayor and his counsellors, very hard-working

:38:35.:38:37.

counsellors, it is not possible to protect the people of Liverpool

:38:38.:38:41.

against the cuts from this government, cut of 58% up to now,

:38:42.:38:47.

with an additional one 9% cut in funding for next year. Indeed that

:38:48.:38:53.

cut might be even bigger, because the council still does not know how

:38:54.:38:57.

much money will be available for two critical services, for that public

:38:58.:39:01.

health grant and the independent living grant. Both vital funds,

:39:02.:39:08.

import and for the well-being of the people of Liverpool. There is still

:39:09.:39:11.

no final figure on how much money will be available there. But in my

:39:12.:39:16.

short contribution to I want to focus on what I believe to be the

:39:17.:39:24.

growing crisis in adult social care. Adult social care in Liverpool has

:39:25.:39:30.

already suffered a ?90 million cut, as a result of government actions.

:39:31.:39:36.

We have been told that the new precept, the new tax on the people

:39:37.:39:40.

of Liverpool, and the better care fund will resolve that situation.

:39:41.:39:47.

But when we look at the facts, we can see that those two measures

:39:48.:39:51.

together will deliver 2.9 million pounds next year, and there is

:39:52.:39:57.

already a need for an additional ?15.2 million, resulting from

:39:58.:40:04.

implementing the national living wage, together with demographic

:40:05.:40:09.

changes with there being more elderly people in the population.

:40:10.:40:14.

That means the measures we have been told will solve the problem will do

:40:15.:40:20.

very little indeed next year. The council is not standing still, it is

:40:21.:40:26.

simply wringing its hands. It has been trying to develop innovative

:40:27.:40:29.

ways of working. It is talking to the local health authority, to the

:40:30.:40:34.

clinical Commissioner, to see how it can work better with them to support

:40:35.:40:41.

services, but there is no way this funding gap can be plugged next

:40:42.:40:47.

year, and there cannot be more cuts are very vulnerable people living in

:40:48.:40:53.

Liverpool. I'm hearing day by day examples of the situation of

:40:54.:40:57.

individual people, often people suffering severe disabilities who

:40:58.:41:00.

are trying very hard to live a normal life, who have now been told

:41:01.:41:04.

their care packages will be cut because despite the council's best

:41:05.:41:08.

efforts, the funding for those packages is being significantly

:41:09.:41:09.

reduce. Does my honourable friend agree with

:41:10.:41:21.

me that the Government must look at bringing forward the additional

:41:22.:41:24.

funding base missed from the better care fund to this year, so that

:41:25.:41:31.

there is not a gap and councils get extra money to support vulnerable,

:41:32.:41:37.

elderly and disabled people? I certainly agree with my honourable

:41:38.:41:42.

friend. In the case of Liverpool, there is a possibility there could

:41:43.:41:46.

be some help in future years. The figure that has been put forward at

:41:47.:41:50.

the moment is purely indicative. The council does not know what will be

:41:51.:41:56.

available in the future. It is also important to recognise the very low

:41:57.:42:03.

tax base of a place like Liverpool. 78% of properties in Liverpool are

:42:04.:42:09.

in bands a and B, making the possibility and the potential of the

:42:10.:42:14.

council raising funds locally very, very difficult indeed. I am acutely

:42:15.:42:18.

aware there have been problems across all public services in

:42:19.:42:22.

Liverpool because of consecutive years of government cuts in funding

:42:23.:42:29.

to come in years to come. The council has done its best to protect

:42:30.:42:34.

those people. I have focused on adult social care. I believe that

:42:35.:42:39.

affects the people who are most in need. I go back to the comments I

:42:40.:42:44.

made earlier about the council still does not know how much money will be

:42:45.:42:51.

available. Also, it is about supporting people who need help the

:42:52.:42:58.

most. My concern is that unless the Government act and act now, more and

:42:59.:43:04.

more people will face crises. More and more people suffering great

:43:05.:43:08.

hardships who are striving hard to live a normal life will find that

:43:09.:43:13.

the bug is cut away from underneath their feet. More and more people

:43:14.:43:18.

will suffer. I think this is intolerable. I asked the Government

:43:19.:43:21.

and the Secretary of State to revisit this area, to look again at

:43:22.:43:25.

the provision of adult social care in Liverpool and aeons Liverpool --

:43:26.:43:32.

beyond Liverpool to take action so more and more people will not suffer

:43:33.:43:43.

in this unacceptable way. This is, I think, are particularly important

:43:44.:43:47.

local Gutmann finance settlement debate. The reason I say that, in

:43:48.:43:52.

the past but we have intended to have debates where we are rolling

:43:53.:43:57.

forward year upon year much of the same. The difference this year is

:43:58.:44:04.

that the settlement is genuinely transformational. It moves away from

:44:05.:44:10.

what is an essentially flawed system. That is why this is very

:44:11.:44:16.

important. The two floors are these. Firstly it did nothing to take

:44:17.:44:20.

account of efficiency within the system. The efficient authority

:44:21.:44:28.

gained nothing. Everything was predicated upon demonstrating that

:44:29.:44:35.

in certain parameters in the formula need, it almost entrenched

:44:36.:44:40.

dependency. It drove out innovation and it drove out initiative. The

:44:41.:44:46.

Government has put into place a raft of measures which enable local

:44:47.:44:49.

authorities no longer to say how much do I need but how do I change

:44:50.:44:55.

my own circumstances? How do I grow my rate base? The work that has been

:44:56.:45:01.

done, the ability of local authorities like Bromley to enter

:45:02.:45:08.

into commercial partnerships... All of that changes that. The ability to

:45:09.:45:13.

go for genuine growth but in sensible terms changes that. It is

:45:14.:45:19.

sad we have seen such an old-fashioned, and I think almost

:45:20.:45:23.

demeaning approach towards local government, from the party opposite.

:45:24.:45:26.

That is the first and most important point that we make. The second point

:45:27.:45:31.

that is important is it moves away from an idea that central government

:45:32.:45:38.

must sort out local government's problems all the time. It is doing

:45:39.:45:42.

so with a measure of fairness. What I think is important is that we have

:45:43.:45:47.

had transition because it is actually transformational. It was

:45:48.:45:52.

necessary to either move from a dependency culture into a

:45:53.:45:55.

self-sufficiency culture. That is utterly to the good. The second

:45:56.:45:59.

thing we need to do now is to make sure, as we go forward, we get the

:46:00.:46:02.

proper baseline is to make sure, as we go forward, we get the proper

:46:03.:46:09.

baselines right. In Redcar and Cleveland we have lost 3000 jobs

:46:10.:46:13.

with the steelworks, equivalent to ?10 million a year in business

:46:14.:46:17.

rates. In London that would be the equivalent of 176,000 jobs going

:46:18.:46:21.

overnight. Do not appreciate there are differences that mean councils

:46:22.:46:27.

have to respond in different ways to circumstances? Of course. That is

:46:28.:46:31.

why the local economic partnerships were set up. That is why there are

:46:32.:46:36.

arrangements for top ups and tariffs which we can simplify going forward.

:46:37.:46:42.

The idea it is simplistic means that we cannot to some degree be master

:46:43.:46:47.

of our own destiny is wrong. What seems utterly wrong, in a local

:46:48.:46:52.

authority like Bromley, which has historically below is unit costs per

:46:53.:46:56.

head in London was treated on a formulaic basis, in exactly the same

:46:57.:47:01.

way as those who had never bothered to keep unit costs down never driven

:47:02.:47:05.

to efficiency in the same way we work. I was told by a civil servant

:47:06.:47:12.

when I asked, there is no reward for efficiency in the formula. Surely

:47:13.:47:16.

efficiency is its own reward. He did not grasp the concept. Ministers and

:47:17.:47:23.

officials do grasp the concept and that should be fundamental to the

:47:24.:47:27.

way we go forward. I welcome what has been done for Bromley. More

:47:28.:47:32.

important, I ask the Secretary of State to ensure we take forward

:47:33.:47:35.

those basic principles to the next agree. Women get to the calculation

:47:36.:47:42.

of the needs element, I hope we will remember there are more than simply

:47:43.:47:47.

the old-fashioned demographic trends about what constitutes need. Where

:47:48.:47:51.

has been calculated in the past has been observed. It took density as

:47:52.:48:00.

equating with deprivation. In London has changed and outer London has

:48:01.:48:06.

changed. It demonstrates it very clearly. -- in London. It is not

:48:07.:48:16.

just deprivation, it is age profile. That needs to be brought into the

:48:17.:48:21.

equation. We'll is a need to make sure that where local authorities...

:48:22.:48:27.

-- we also need to make sure. Where local authorities can demonstrate

:48:28.:48:35.

long-term efficiencies, that should be given as much waiting in

:48:36.:48:40.

calculation of a formula as a purely formula stick need ratio matrix that

:48:41.:48:48.

has been established in the past. That will drive behavioural change.

:48:49.:48:53.

Anyone who calls themselves... Wants to give local authorities the tools,

:48:54.:48:58.

means and incentives to change behaviour, to be more efficient, and

:48:59.:49:02.

to be more self-reliant. We are part the way down the track. The return

:49:03.:49:07.

of business rates to localities is a huge step forward. It is an error my

:49:08.:49:12.

party made in government that we have rectified it. That is a good

:49:13.:49:16.

thing. The next thing I hate the Secretary of State will take forward

:49:17.:49:23.

is to entrench efficiency as something that should be rewarded,

:49:24.:49:26.

just as much as ticking boxes on the need indices. Then you will get

:49:27.:49:30.

genuine in fairness in local government responsive to local needs

:49:31.:49:35.

and it will give local representatives the abilities to

:49:36.:49:39.

shape policies and finances to needs, concerns and aspirations of

:49:40.:49:43.

communities. If you achieve that, it will be worth a very great deal

:49:44.:49:51.

indeed. I commend this to the house. -- House. Can I pay tribute to

:49:52.:50:01.

councillors up and down the land for the fantastic work they do in

:50:02.:50:05.

delivering excellent public services right across communities we are here

:50:06.:50:11.

to serve? Time after time, residents will say they trust local government

:50:12.:50:15.

more than central government and review after review has concluded

:50:16.:50:19.

local government is the most efficient arm of government, more

:50:20.:50:23.

than any other central government department. The term, lions led by

:50:24.:50:27.

donkeys could not be more apt when we look at the relationship between

:50:28.:50:31.

central government and local councillors. The front line in

:50:32.:50:35.

delivery services and quite often the last line of defence in

:50:36.:50:39.

protecting communities they are there to serve. For far too long,

:50:40.:50:45.

local government has been subjected to Follies by ministers using public

:50:46.:50:52.

services as a plaything, a toy. Cash is the weapon of choice. In a

:50:53.:51:03.

community of a quarter of a million people, I witnessed and implemented

:51:04.:51:06.

settlement is passed down by this government. As demand full support

:51:07.:51:10.

increase, money was taken away as a link between need and available cash

:51:11.:51:15.

was broken. Government were warned time and again that removing money

:51:16.:51:23.

from prevention will add to costs from other parts of government. In

:51:24.:51:27.

greater Manchester it is the case that almost every ?1 taken away from

:51:28.:51:31.

local councils, the same has been shunted across to welfare and health

:51:32.:51:35.

because pressures get moved around the system. It is worse for the

:51:36.:51:38.

people we represent and says the Government no money whatsoever. Will

:51:39.:51:45.

my honourable friend give way? Of course. Is my honourable friend

:51:46.:51:49.

aware that the cost of delayed discharges from hospital is almost

:51:50.:51:55.

?1 billion a year. That could by over 40,000 elderly people are's

:51:56.:52:00.

worth of home care. How does that make moral or economic sense? I

:52:01.:52:05.

absolutely agree with my friend on these benches. The better care fund

:52:06.:52:09.

had methods in place of putting money on the front line to save

:52:10.:52:14.

further down the line. It was completely inadequate for the needs

:52:15.:52:19.

that were there. The chartered Institute of Public Finance and

:52:20.:52:25.

accountancy has placed on record its view some councils could well fall

:52:26.:52:28.

over. The challenge, of course, will not come from one council failing to

:52:29.:52:32.

set a budget, the challenge will come in courts. As an entitlement to

:52:33.:52:39.

basic services are taken away, someone will test that in court.

:52:40.:52:43.

When there is a judgment that entitlement has unlawfully been

:52:44.:52:46.

taken away, it will send shock waves through the system that I do not

:52:47.:52:52.

think central government is ready for. At that point, the system may

:52:53.:52:56.

fall over. The truth is, the Government does not want to be

:52:57.:53:00.

honest about the true cost of cuts will do if we look at adult social

:53:01.:53:05.

care, which most will accept is one of the biggest challenges facing

:53:06.:53:09.

local government and society more generally, our older population grew

:53:10.:53:15.

by 11.4% between 2010-2014 while funding was being taken away. Over a

:53:16.:53:22.

million people have unmet care demands, it is estimated. What is

:53:23.:53:28.

the Government response? Lacklustre, weak, pathetic. It does not address

:53:29.:53:33.

the social care crisis in this country today. You are perfectly

:53:34.:53:40.

right to quote those figures. Actually the demand for need. Two

:53:41.:53:45.

unpaid family carers. This government passed the 2012 care act

:53:46.:53:51.

which gave those carers rights. There is no funding for that. That

:53:52.:53:55.

is the basis on which legislation will have to be used. Thank you. We

:53:56.:54:01.

can talk about figures. It is a settlement debate. We need to think

:54:02.:54:06.

about the human cost. Down the line, what does it mean for individuals,

:54:07.:54:14.

families and communities? Oldham, ?200 million of cuts. It leaves a

:54:15.:54:20.

gross budget of 188 million. Or than half of that town's and a has been

:54:21.:54:25.

taken away by the Government. If the answer to adult social care is a 2%

:54:26.:54:30.

levy on council tax, let's follow that through and see what it means.

:54:31.:54:37.

For Oldham, a 2% increase in council tax, as directed by governments come

:54:38.:54:43.

generate ?1.5 million. They have a low council tax base to begin with.

:54:44.:54:49.

The increase just in the living wage impact on social care contracts, not

:54:50.:54:55.

even standing still, not taking account of population or demand were

:54:56.:55:01.

just to stay still, is ?2.7 million. 1.5 generated in council tax, ?2.7

:55:02.:55:06.

million in increased wage bills through the Government's living

:55:07.:55:10.

wage. Another is to not add up and it does not allow that to stay

:55:11.:55:17.

still. We are going backwards. What was the response? The response was a

:55:18.:55:21.

cash bonus. I am sure my friend on the opposite benches towards the

:55:22.:55:26.

back is very pleased at the cash bonanza to buy his vote today. Some

:55:27.:55:32.

of us were not so fortunate. We had a raw settlement and a raw deal from

:55:33.:55:40.

the Government. On top of the ?203 million, we cannot ignore the role

:55:41.:55:45.

relief grant. That is to take into account not a single bit of need. It

:55:46.:55:53.

has been pointed out that 85% of this funding has been given to Tory

:55:54.:55:59.

shires. Let me go closer to home and look at greater Manchester.

:56:00.:56:03.

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