01/03/2016 House of Commons


01/03/2016

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GROANS FROM CROWD Order.

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This government is clear that the broad shoulders of this United

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Kingdom are 100% behind the oil and gas industry and the thousands of

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families it supports. We have announced a wide-ranging fiscal

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package. That was further expanded at the summer budget, to drive

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investment. Oil and gas UK have highlighted that headline tax rates

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of 50% or 67.5% for those companies being PRT are no longer sustainable,

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as the UK CS enters a ever more mature phase, and the oil price

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remains low offer longer, this needs to be reflected by changing

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circumstances and be permanently reduced, will the government listen

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to the industry, what fiscal support will they bring forward. In this she

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is budget. In the driving investment paper, the government recognised the

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need overtime to change the fiscal strategy, and that is why the scale

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of what my right honourable friend was as it was at one point ?1.3

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billion, the recent delays, the headline tax reductions took effect

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on the 1st of January this year. Can I just echo those points, the North

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Sea oil and gas industry is facing very serious challenges, working

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together with the industry and with the oil and gas authority, the

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Treasury can help overcome these problems. Can I urge to be included

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in the budget, tax cutting initiatives and support that build

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on last year 's measures, and will help attract investment to this and

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will ease the worries of many very worried people at this time. My

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right honourable friend, intervening in this way, highlights that there

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are so many jobs supported by the sector which are in England and in

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Scotland, I commend the work that he has been doing with the new Anglian

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supporting companies that have found themselves in difficulties, working

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on skills, and I will assure him that we will continue working hard

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with individual companies to see what can be done to support this

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vital sector. In North Tyneside, oh GN has shed all of its 2000 jobs.

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The company has been in touch with the government to ask the help. --

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OGN. It has heard nothing about the development of wind farms and help

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that can be given. Will the Minister say whether there is going to be any

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help? Will you meet with myself and representatives for the jobs? I

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thank the honourable lady, I would be very happy to meet with her and

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with that company to see what proposal they would put forward.

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There is an application for shale gas exploration in my constituency

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which may result in many millions of pounds in community benefits. Does

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the Minister agree that those community benefits should go to

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those communities most affected by developments? My right honourable

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friend the Chancellor has said that the shale wealth fund could deliver

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up to ?1 billion of benefits, this is in addition to the industry

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scheme itself, my honourable friend is entirely right that it is

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important that community see the benefits and have the reassurance of

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additionality. Doctor Roberta Blackman Woods. With your permission

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I would like to answer this question together with question number 12, my

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responsibility as Chancellor is for jobs, livelihoods and living

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standards, it is clear to me that a UK exit from the EU would be a long,

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costly and messy divorce, that would hurt all of those things. We have

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already seen sterling fall and HSBC yesterday predicted a further 15 to

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20% slump in the event of a vote to leave, the finance ministers,

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central-bank governors, concluded at the weekend that British exit would

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cause an economic shock, not just of UK but Europe and the world, what's

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people are asking for in this referendum is a serious, sober and

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principled assessment from the government setting out the facts, I

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can announce today that the Treasury will publish before the 23rd of June

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combines analysis of membership of a reformed EU, and the alternative,

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which will include the long-term economic costs and benefits of EU

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membership and the risks associated with an exit. Given that up to

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140,000 jobs in the North East region export rely upon membership

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of the European Union, does the Chancellor agree with me and the

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majority of the Northeast of commerce members who say that an

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exit from the would be extremely damaging for north-east economic

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growth, and regeneration. I do agree with both the honourable member and

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the businesses in the north-east, of course, the north-east has thrived

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by a attracting big inward investment into car manufacturing

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and train manufacturing, most recently, at Newton Aycliffe, one of

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the things that those who are advocating exit from the year must

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answer is, what is the alternative arrangement, what is the alternative

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arrangement for a large car factory in the north-east of England, could

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it export cars into mainland Europe without tariffs? It is not obvious

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that you can do that without paying towards the EU budget, and accepting

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free movement of people. Will the UK steel industry have a brighter

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future if we remain in the EU or if we leave the EU? I believe that the

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best way to help the UK steel industry is to take action at home,

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and through being part of a large economic bloc, in other words, the

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European Union, raise concerns with Chinese steel dumping, and frankly,

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our voice will be amplified as part of the EU when we make that argument

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with China, then if we were just making that argument alone. In the

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event of a no vote, the government has committed itself to triggering

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article 50 straightaway. I cannot see the point of that, why doesn't

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the government give some time between the no vote and the

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triggering of article 52 unable a discussion to take place with

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counterparties, and see the extent to which good faith can be

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established with the countries of the European Union. It seems

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illogical to restrict ourselves in that way. It is not illogical that

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if the country votes to leave, then we leave the European Union. That is

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the choice for all of the people of the country. The only available

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mechanism is the triggering of article 50, that puts a two-year

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time-limit, of course we would try to negotiate in good faith, and

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extension can be achieved, but only with the consent of 27 other

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nations, people must be aware, there will not be to referendums, this is

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decision day on the 23rd of June, people need to choose, voting to

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remain in the EU is the best outcome for the economic and national

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security. Isn't it extraordinary that the Chancellor asked the G20 to

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make that statement and he made the request to them in order that they

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could tee up this element of Project fear. The idea that the US Treasury

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Secretary, the head of the IMF, indeed, the central bank governor of

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China dances to a British tune, I'm afraid, is a bit fanciful. The

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central-bank governors, and the finance ministers of the G20 are

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saying what frankly every major independent economic institution is

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saying, which is that a British exit would both cause an immediate

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economic shock, and have longer economic costs. Frankly, many of the

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people advocating exit, I totally understand why they want to do that,

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but they accent that there is a short-term and long-term economic

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cost, intensely, and I think that we should have that on the table, that

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is what the Treasury will produce this analysis. Despite the recent

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gulag debacle, does that Chancellor agree that the UK membership of the

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European Union should make it easier to clamp down on immoral tax

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avoidance by multinational companies? I know that Russia today

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is the favourite channel of the Labour leadership... LAUGHTER

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These are Treasury questions(!) what we are raising at the European

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Union, and this is another example of where being part of a bigger club

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helps, is precisely trying to get a pan-European agreement to country by

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country public reporting so that we can see what multinational companies

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are paying in different countries. -- Russia Today. Our ability to

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achieve that is amplified by being part of the EU. Jacob Rees Mogg. In

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my right honourable friend 's rather apocalyptic view of the European

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Union, if that is correct, was it not both either irresponsible or

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inaccurate of the priming astir to say that he ruled nothing out prior

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to the completion of the most unsatisfactory renegotiation. --

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friend's. We have secured a renegotiation which I think

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addresses the principal British concerns about our membership of the

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European Union. Now we can advocate membership of the reform EU, we will

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be stronger, safer and better off in the European Union. Between 2007 and

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2013, over 8000 businesses in the North West were able to start access

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to EU funding, we welcome the Chancellor's comments this morning

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about the analysis that he will put forward before the 23rd of June,

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will that include specific detail on the impact of leaving BA you on the

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economy to the Northwest? I am happy to take on board her request for

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more information about what the impact of exit would have on the

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north-west of England. I am a north-west MP. -- leaving the EU. I

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know that there is a lot of businesses which have access to the

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free trade single market, largest market in the world, all of the

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alternatives on offer, whether you go for Norway, Switzerland, Canada,

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the WTO, all of these different approaches, and of course, those who

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advocate withdrawal have not been able to set along one, all of them

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involve some kind of barrier to entry, or, you have to pay into the

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EU budget, as Norway does, and accept free movement of people,

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which is one of their complaints about membership. Examining the

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alternatives which we will do in the coming days will throw a spotlight

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on the choice facing the country. Should the British people decide to

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vote to leave on June 23, what arguments would you deploy on June

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24 two attract those investors wishing to invest in Europe, what

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arguments in favour of the UK rather than other countries in Europe? I

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will always fight and this Government will always fight for the

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best interests for the United Kingdom and we will do whatever we

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can in response to the verdict of the people. But the recommendation

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of the British Government and my recommendation is we are better off

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in the reformed EU. The point I make is this, of course we will have to

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handle the situation if the British people choose to exit and I would

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always stress we are a great country to invest in but I think that

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argument we are weaker if we are not in the EU. We must attend to the

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questions and in a timely way because this is desperately slow. We

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can do desperate -- better than that, one would hope. Would there

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not be a double whammy? The risk of depreciation leading to high

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inflation and interest rates. And any motion exporters will benefit

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from a cheaper pound is more than offset by additional tariff barriers

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those firms will encounter worldwide. I think the honourable

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gentleman, the former Shadow Chancellor, is right to point to

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both the immediate economic shock which I think it's generally

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accepted. Even those advocating withdrawal for honourable reasons

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would accept there is an immediate economic dislocation, and longer

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term costs. But if you say the Bretton to make this leap in the

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dark, what is the Trinity? -- to Britain. How do you assure the

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company fracture in the North East of England they will have no

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tariffs? These are the questions for this big national debate. Those who

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wish to state in the European Union say we are an insignificant and

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small economy but on the other hand, if we leave the European Union, it

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would cause an economic meltdown around the world. They both cannot

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be true, Chancellor. Our argument is that we will be stronger, better off

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inside a European Union. That is the sort of positive choices we face as

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a country and I do not think this is the right time. I do not think we

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should leave the EU but even those who contemplate it should think

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about this. With the economic situation the world faces, with the

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geopolitical situation in Europe with Putin on our doorstep and the

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crisis in the Middle East, is this the right moment to leave? My strong

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advice and the advice of the British Cabinet and British Government is we

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remain in this reformed EU. The Scottish First Minister Nicola

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Sturgeon was in London yesterday but making the case for the UK to remain

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in the EU. It supports 300,000 jobs in Scotland and 3 million in the UK.

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Can I ask the Chancellor to agree that in terms of EU membership,

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trade deals will be easier to agree as a block, harmonised regulation

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helps businesses to export and notwithstanding there are always

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improvements to be made, being a member of the EU edifice consumers

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as well? -- benefits. Scotland benefits from both being part of the

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United Kingdom and part of the European Union. And he is right to

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highlight the fact EU agreements on things like air travel and mobile

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phone chargers have reduced costs for consumers. It is also the case a

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depreciation in Stirling leads to increased inflation. In terms of

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free trade, free movement which we think is a boom and the projections

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in terms of the environment, social interaction and employment rights.

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These are substantial achievements of the European Union. To be

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celebrated and not renounced. That is the positive case we are making.

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Can I ask the Chancellor and the Prime Minister to make a positive

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case because the inner campaign does not have a 20 point lead to squander

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with a negative campaign. I am making the positive case we would be

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stronger, safer and better. Those are positive outcomes. And there

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are? Over the alternatives and we do not know what the leap in the dark

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would entail and that is reasonable to point out. I want to do this in a

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positive way and that is a healthy debate. I take the Ronald Reagan

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11th Commandment, I will not speak ill of a Conservative! Mr Speaker...

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The national living wage will mean a full-time minimum wage and it will

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earn over ?4000 more by 2020 in monetary terms, a rise of more than

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34% due to the ripple effects on those on higher incomes up to 6

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million workers will benefit, the national living wage will drive

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productivity, make sure work pays. Progressive and fair and I am proud

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it is being introduced by a Conservative government. I thank him

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for his response. I am delighted the national living wage comes into

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force from April the 1st Southampton has a number of low paid workers

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which this policy addresses. What assurances can he make to my

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constituents their jobs will be protected as a consequence of this

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wage rise and a stronger local economy? The assurance I can give is

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alongside the national living wage, we have cut taxes for businesses so

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they have more money to invest in their workforce. We have introduced

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and increased the employment alone is helping small businesses

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especially in used that at the same time as announcing the national

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living wage. And we are making big investments in the Southampton

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economy so this is a great place to grow business and employee people,

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all helping this hard-working people. Wage growth matters. Surely

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it is the bottom line of your payslip that counts. That is why he

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is wrong to say this is progressive when the Resolution Foundation finds

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over the next Parliament, those in the top half of the income

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distribution will benefit more than those at the bottom. How can the

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Chancellor say what he has done will help those with the least? I think

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she seems to be opposing the national living wage. I think it is

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a progressive policy and it was based on work by the Resolution

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Foundation. If you want a regressive policy, how about increasing the

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basing great -- basic rate of income tax? That is what the Labour Party

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is proposing in Scotland, the first sign of what an economic policy

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would look like under this New Labour leadership. How could an

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increase in the basic rate of income tax hitting people earning over

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?11,000 be remotely progressive or fair? Most businesses as well as

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workers in my constituency warmly welcomed the introduction of the

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national living wage and the increased spending power it

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delivers. Will the Chancer and his team heavily monitored the

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implementation to see if any unintended consequences happen

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particularly where margins are small set of bombing, social care and

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hospitality? -- Chancellor. Of course we will monitor the impact of

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our policies on the economy, especially sectors in the social

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care sector, that is one reason why alongside introducing the national

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living wage, we have introduced a new council tax supplement. The

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analysis when we announced this is while in theory 60,000 jobs could be

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lost in the future, that might otherwise not have been created, or

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the policies we will see creating over 1 million jobs so the overall

:20:16.:20:19.

effect is an increase of employment. How can the Treasury ensure

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employers do not reduce the hours of work to employees? Many of those in

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receipt of low incomes. What I would say is many different employer

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organisations and businesses have welcomed the national living wage

:20:39.:20:42.

will stop and many studies suggest having a higher ceiling, a higher

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law on wages drives up productivity which is one of the Great British

:20:49.:20:57.

economic challenges. Number four. As part of our long-term economic

:20:58.:21:03.

plan, the government's Charter for budget responsibility was approved

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by Parliament on October 15 2015. It sets a path to this country's

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long-term financial help to deliver a surplus and unlike other parties

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in this House, we will be strong and consistent in our support for the

:21:19.:21:22.

charter. The budget is on much the 16th.

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I am grateful to my honourable friend. In 2010, but budget deficit

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was 11.1% of GDP and this year will be down to third at 3.9% which is a

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remarkable achievement given the economic headwinds outside the UK.

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Could he tell the House what discussions he is having with other

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parties, in particular the shadow frontbench, in order to reduce the

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deficit? I thank my honourable friend for his

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support. I have had noes to discussions so far. Or any

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submissions from the frontbench opposite. -- no discussions. I have

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had as a mission from Ed Balls's, head of policy who said of the

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Shadow Chancellor's changing position, this kind of chaos less

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than a month into the job is the kind of low ease and significant

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political figures struggle to recover from. I agree that we need

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to reduce the debt and the deficit but with interest rates at record

:22:33.:22:38.

lows, and with the IMF forecasting investment in public and private

:22:39.:22:45.

investment will fall in the league table, should we not take advantage

:22:46.:22:51.

of low interest rates to in best in the creaky infrastructure, airport

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capacity and road and rail and flood defences? -- to invest. And I

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welcome her support for deficit, -- reduction and it is good to have her

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back but I remind her in the last Parliament, she voted against

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virtually every single measure of deficit reduction this Government

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took. In terms of investment, we have a big programme of

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infrastructure investment, 100 billion over this Parliament,

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including transport infrastructure and other measures to help her

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constituents and those across the country. As the IMF has been

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mentioned, would the Minister agree the statement last week we have

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delivered robust growth, record employment, is it never could

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reduction in the fiscal deficit and increased financial sector

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resilience is to be welcomed? I wonder if there is more to calm. --

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two, now. I thank my honourable friend for that supplementary and

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the IMF have been clear in their endorsement of the charter for

:23:59.:24:03.

budget responsibility. I say for example the transparency of the new

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rule with a focus on headline balances and simple and well defined

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escape clause is welcome. It commends the appropriate level of

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flexibility in the charter. In terms of external advice taken on by the

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party opposite, I am quite clear and it would appear from this morning's

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session Labour MPs are extremely helpful. Sit down, a terrible waste

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of time, long wounded, boring and unnecessary! -- long-winded. In the

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debates at the time of the charter, I am many others warned the

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Chancellor of the potential impact of global adverse headwinds. The

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Chancellor responded by posting and I quote, of having an economic plan

:24:53.:24:56.

that actually produces better results than forecast. Since then,

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we have seen business investment falling, his export target receding

:25:03.:25:06.

into the distance, trade deficit widened, manufacturing and

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construction and the recession, the productivity gap the biggest in a

:25:11.:25:13.

generation and last week the Chancellor tells us the economy is

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smaller than we thought. Can I say if his economic plan is now

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producing worse results than forecast, imposing more stealth

:25:25.:25:28.

taxes and cuts in the budget will only make matters worse! We need a?

:25:29.:25:36.

! Order. I said what I said because ministers responsible for answering

:25:37.:25:40.

for government policy and not that of the opposition and people who ask

:25:41.:25:44.

questions, from the front and backbench, pithy replies! Can I

:25:45.:25:50.

thank the Shadow Chancellor for that question. The forecasts at the

:25:51.:25:55.

moment still showed the UK performing extremely well with very

:25:56.:25:57.

strong rates of the Chancellor was right to say over

:25:58.:26:08.

the weekend we may need to undertake further reductions in spending with

:26:09.:26:12.

us this country can only afford what it can afford. He said, I am

:26:13.:26:17.

determined in this uncertain time we have economic security. That is what

:26:18.:26:22.

people rely on. But I am equally clear it would be a fundamental

:26:23.:26:26.

disaster for this country to pursue the policies he has been promoting

:26:27.:26:30.

in the six months he has been Shadow Chancellor.

:26:31.:26:34.

Can we address one of the domestic threats to the economy, this week,

:26:35.:26:39.

the former governor of the Bank of England has warned that bankers have

:26:40.:26:42.

not learned the lessons from 2008, and without reform, the financial

:26:43.:26:50.

system and another crisis is certain. Will the Chancellor take

:26:51.:26:53.

responsible do for the domestic responsibilities within the economy

:26:54.:26:56.

that have built up under his watch, will he withdraw his proposals to

:26:57.:27:00.

water down the regulatory receiving for senior bankers? -- regulatory

:27:01.:27:06.

regime. Can I remind the Shadow Chancellor that over the last five

:27:07.:27:10.

and a half years, it has been this government, that has been fixing the

:27:11.:27:15.

problems in our banking system, and that the poor regulation, the

:27:16.:27:18.

tripartite regime that we inherited from the government deviously, it is

:27:19.:27:22.

us taking action. In terms of economic policy, I have to look

:27:23.:27:27.

around at the Labour Party, and see what kind of reactions there are.

:27:28.:27:33.

Sits down, sit down, this is about government policy, progress is

:27:34.:27:37.

slower than at previous Treasury questions, please do try to stick to

:27:38.:27:41.

government policy upon which briefly you can and should speak. Hugh

:27:42.:27:49.

Merryman. Question five. Mr Speaker, the government wants to make

:27:50.:27:52.

homeownership a reality for as many people as possible, that is why we

:27:53.:27:56.

are building 400,000 new homes with extended help to buy, I can tell the

:27:57.:28:00.

house that the new help to buy ice launched one year ago at the budget

:28:01.:28:03.

and has been used by almost a third of a million families for saving for

:28:04.:28:08.

the first time. -- ISA. That is confirmation that as a Conservative

:28:09.:28:11.

government, we are on the side of the working family and home

:28:12.:28:14.

ownership. 82% of buyers are using help to buy, they would not have

:28:15.:28:17.

been able to buy their home without that skin, would my right honourable

:28:18.:28:22.

friend agree with me that it is the Conservatives helping hard-working

:28:23.:28:25.

people realise the dream of home ownership, is he aware of

:28:26.:28:27.

alternative economic policies and the risks they pose to families in

:28:28.:28:35.

my constituency? My honourable friend is absolutely right, 130,000

:28:36.:28:40.

people have made use of the help to buy schemes, helping people in his

:28:41.:28:43.

constituency and elsewhere ago on the housing ladder, at the same time

:28:44.:28:46.

we are seeking to increase supply, by building more homes that people

:28:47.:28:50.

can buy, it is worth noting that first-time buyers were down under

:28:51.:28:55.

50%, over 50%, over the last Labour government, 60% with us. Mr Speaker,

:28:56.:29:01.

the Chancellor makes great claims for policy but in inner London, in

:29:02.:29:05.

my constituency, it is a crisis, I met with the head of the CCG, we

:29:06.:29:10.

have a crisis in GP recruitment, hospital doctor appointments, even

:29:11.:29:14.

highly paid doctors cannot afford to get on the housing ladder, in my

:29:15.:29:19.

constituency, which is causing a crisis in public services, what is

:29:20.:29:20.

he going to do about that? We are doing two things about that,

:29:21.:29:27.

building more homes in London than were ever built under the last

:29:28.:29:30.

Labour government, and we have just introduced help to buy London so

:29:31.:29:34.

that we help Londoners specifically deal with the very high cost of

:29:35.:29:42.

houses in the capital. After six years as Chancellor, that he

:29:43.:29:48.

confirmed, from 2010 to 2015, whether home ownership was up or

:29:49.:29:55.

down? When I first became Chancellor, we were in the aftermath

:29:56.:29:57.

of a collapse in the housing market, so it took a couple of years to get

:29:58.:30:00.

the house-building going again, I can tell you that the house-building

:30:01.:30:05.

stats are up, and the number of first-time buyers has risen by 60%

:30:06.:30:10.

since I was Chancellor, down by 50% under the last Labour government.

:30:11.:30:17.

There you have it, we know from the English housing survey that there

:30:18.:30:23.

were 201,000 fewer households owning a home in 2015 than five years ago,

:30:24.:30:27.

compare to a million increase under Labour. By 2025, nine out of ten

:30:28.:30:34.

Britons under 35 on modest incomes in Britain will not be able to

:30:35.:30:38.

afford a home, renting in the private sector is soaring, the

:30:39.:30:42.

housing benefit bill is now likely to be 350 million more than he

:30:43.:30:47.

forecast last year. Isn't it true, Mr Speaker, that his record on

:30:48.:30:51.

housing investment is one of failure, with British families now

:30:52.:30:55.

literally paying the price? Housing stats are higher than when I became

:30:56.:31:00.

Chancellor but what people need above all as homeowners or people

:31:01.:31:05.

building houses is economic security, and that is what this

:31:06.:31:09.

government is seeking to deliver. Frankly, the fact that the Labour

:31:10.:31:12.

Party is now getting its advice from Yanis Varoufakis, and the

:31:13.:31:15.

revolutionary Marxist broadcaster Paul Mason does not suggest me that

:31:16.:31:20.

they have got an answer to economic security, presumably they chose

:31:21.:31:24.

those two because Chairman Mao was dead and Mickey Mouse was

:31:25.:31:32.

Tax treaties provide protection for UK citizens from discriminatory tax

:31:33.:31:39.

in other countries, we have one of the largest treaty networks, with

:31:40.:31:43.

over 220 in force, HMRC cannot intervene where a taxpayer is in

:31:44.:31:48.

dispute with a foreign entity on domestic issues, but where a treaty

:31:49.:31:53.

may not apply, and is not apply properly, they can request HMRC to

:31:54.:31:57.

raise the issue with the other revenue authority. My constituent,

:31:58.:32:02.

David Duncan, currently being pursued by the meat and assistance

:32:03.:32:05.

in the recovery of debt for a tax payment related to a time when he

:32:06.:32:09.

was residing in Germany. He was working in South Korea. He had been

:32:10.:32:17.

-- assured by his employer... This is a story, not a question, taking

:32:18.:32:21.

far too long, one sentence: what is it?! Will the Minister advise what

:32:22.:32:27.

help is available to my constituent, in terms of resolving this issue

:32:28.:32:31.

between Germany and South Korea, thank you. In Minister! It depends

:32:32.:32:38.

upon the nature of the dispute, if the honourable gentleman wishes to

:32:39.:32:42.

write for me -- to me, I will get back to him. Alistair Carmichael.

:32:43.:32:50.

Damian Hinds. The 2% duty cut in the March budget, 2015, continue to

:32:51.:32:53.

support 259,000 people across the sector, including Highland park, in

:32:54.:32:58.

the honourable gentleman's constituency. I thank the Minister

:32:59.:33:02.

for that answer, last year, you may recall that the cuts in alcohol

:33:03.:33:09.

duties would lead to a reduction of ?180 million in revenue, but in

:33:10.:33:13.

fact, since April, through to January of this year, we have seen

:33:14.:33:18.

?190 million increase in revenues, will he therefore look carefully at

:33:19.:33:24.

the request from the Scotch whiskey industry this year for a further 2%

:33:25.:33:31.

cut in duties? I know how much the sector values the cut in the duties,

:33:32.:33:36.

the first since 1996, it is great to see the industry in good health with

:33:37.:33:40.

a number of distilleries growing strongly and exports in other parts

:33:41.:33:44.

of the world, I have received representations from the SWI, of

:33:45.:33:48.

course among others in relation to the budget. Spirits, Andrew

:33:49.:33:54.

Griffiths. Any change reduction in spirit duty will impact on the

:33:55.:33:57.

market and other drinks such as beer! This is the government, this

:33:58.:34:08.

Chancellor scrapped Labour's hated Bill yesterday, and cut it three

:34:09.:34:13.

times, cut beer duty three times, more revenue for the Treasury, more

:34:14.:34:17.

beer sales, and saving hundreds of pubs, will he continue that

:34:18.:34:22.

supported the future? Mr Speaker, my honourable friend speaks in exactly

:34:23.:34:28.

the right spirits(!)... BOOING Use the representative Burton, the

:34:29.:34:33.

of beer, and nobody has done more to advocate for that particular

:34:34.:34:37.

industry, that important industry, the budget is on March 16, my right

:34:38.:34:43.

honourable friend makes any and all changes to duty at that such a

:34:44.:34:48.

school event. Scotch whiskey is the biggest main contributor to UK trade

:34:49.:34:52.

and goods, without it, the trade deficit would have been 11% larger,

:34:53.:34:59.

manufacture across, including in my constituency, have experience of

:35:00.:35:02.

exporting, they know that the domestic rates of tax have an impact

:35:03.:35:05.

on the attitude of international markets. What consideration has the

:35:06.:35:09.

Chancellor given to industry called to reduce the Excise in the upcoming

:35:10.:35:15.

budget? My right honourable friend is always very alive to

:35:16.:35:17.

representations from the Scotch whiskey industry, that product

:35:18.:35:22.

accounts for 25% of UK food and drink exports, Japan has been a

:35:23.:35:27.

strong market again for the sector. Others have not worked out so well,

:35:28.:35:31.

but we always continue to listen to what that important sector has to

:35:32.:35:38.

say. The employment level stands at 31.4 million, this represents more

:35:39.:35:43.

people in work in the UK than ever before. Over the past year,

:35:44.:35:49.

employment growth has been driven by full-time workers, and by high and

:35:50.:35:53.

medium skilled occupations. This demonstrates we are now moving into

:35:54.:35:57.

the next phase of our recovery, with high-quality employment, helping to

:35:58.:36:01.

boost productivity, and raise living standards across the country. The

:36:02.:36:06.

number of people in my constituency relying upon the other web benefits

:36:07.:36:09.

in Cheltenham has fallen by 70% since 2010. Does he agree with me

:36:10.:36:15.

that continuing to invest in GCHQ is key to safeguarding that progress,

:36:16.:36:19.

as it supports the high-value cyber jobs in the state and crucially in

:36:20.:36:26.

the civilian sector? The Chancellor announced at the spending review

:36:27.:36:31.

that we would be investing in cyber, quite a lot more, and Cheltenham

:36:32.:36:34.

would be seeing those benefits. Quite right to praise the employment

:36:35.:36:39.

picture and performance in Cheltenham, it has seen more than

:36:40.:36:44.

4000 people get into work, as well as 3000 fewer people in

:36:45.:36:48.

unemployment. Across the UK as a whole, the OBE forecast an increase

:36:49.:36:52.

of employment of 1.1 million, over the course of the parliament.

:36:53.:36:58.

Christians against poverty have found that 72% of people who are

:36:59.:37:03.

often working and on payment meters will behind on council tax and other

:37:04.:37:07.

bills, what assessment has been made of the impact of this type of tariff

:37:08.:37:14.

on household debt? We monitor household debt on an ongoing basis,

:37:15.:37:19.

and if she has some specific cases that she would like to show me, I am

:37:20.:37:24.

sure we can look at those and pass those onto DWP and others. I do have

:37:25.:37:28.

to say that overall, the point picture remains extremely strong. We

:37:29.:37:33.

have unemployment rate of 74.1%, and since the first quarter, UK

:37:34.:37:37.

employment rate has grown more than in any other G-7 country. What more

:37:38.:37:45.

support than the Chancellor given terms of pension to the

:37:46.:37:48.

self-employed, given recent trends suggest that in five years' time,

:37:49.:37:51.

4.7 million people will be self-employed and will not benefit

:37:52.:37:59.

from further involvement. That is an interesting point, and in terms of

:38:00.:38:04.

helping the self-employed, that is one of the key priorities of this

:38:05.:38:08.

government, and we will have to see what is in the budget on March 16.

:38:09.:38:15.

Is the Minister aware that I, like many members here, represent a

:38:16.:38:19.

university town, and the University is one of the best employers and the

:38:20.:38:23.

biggest employers in my constituency, universities up and

:38:24.:38:26.

down the country are terrified that if we left the EU, the amount of

:38:27.:38:31.

grant, we get most money for research, any country in Britain,

:38:32.:38:35.

full research, and research collaboration, our universities

:38:36.:38:38.

would be destroyed by leaving the EU. I join the honourable gentleman

:38:39.:38:45.

in campaigning for the UK to remain a member of the EU, and that is the

:38:46.:38:49.

right thing for us to do, both for the public finances overall and for

:38:50.:38:56.

the future of the UK economy. As the 220 communique made their over the

:38:57.:39:00.

weekend. It may also have an impact on university sector, which I'm sure

:39:01.:39:03.

will be one of the questions that will feature in the forthcoming

:39:04.:39:08.

debate leading into the referendum. Lawrence Robinson Battenberg

:39:09.:39:15.

Robertson. Question number nine. Equitable Life payment scheme has

:39:16.:39:20.

now successfully traced and paid 90% of eligible policyholders. Payments

:39:21.:39:24.

will continue for the life of these annuities. -- Laurence Robertson.

:39:25.:39:30.

Laurence Robertson. I thank the Minister for that response but given

:39:31.:39:37.

because of regulatory failure many policyholders lost out, that should

:39:38.:39:40.

be overseen by government, any government, not just this

:39:41.:39:44.

government, isn't it fair that those policyholders should receive

:39:45.:39:47.

compensation and if they do not, how can any invest in the future have

:39:48.:39:50.

any confidence in the regulatory system which is put in place. Of

:39:51.:39:55.

course, this Chancellor has done more than anyone else to tackle the

:39:56.:40:00.

regulatory failure of the 1990s with regards to Equitable Life, for

:40:01.:40:04.

example, with profits in your attention will receive full

:40:05.:40:08.

compensation for the life of the annuity, and pre-1992 NU attends

:40:09.:40:11.

will receive excavation payments of up to ?10,000, and ?775 million has

:40:12.:40:19.

been paid out tax-free to others despite the constraint public

:40:20.:40:26.

finances. -- annuitants. Those on pension benefit got a doubling. What

:40:27.:40:33.

about the ?1.5 billion that has been delivered by the government, has it

:40:34.:40:37.

been handed over? I regularly update Parliament in terms of those precise

:40:38.:40:40.

figures, and so far, we are at almost ?1 billion, the payments in

:40:41.:40:46.

terms of the new attends will continue for the lives of those

:40:47.:40:56.

annuitants. -- annuitants. The government is cutting taxes to

:40:57.:40:58.

encourage small businesses to grow, corporation tax will fall to 19% in

:40:59.:41:03.

2017, 18% 2020, the lowest energy 20, employed allowance will rise by

:41:04.:41:09.

15% this April, giving a 3000 discount on the national insurance

:41:10.:41:12.

contributions, and the seed enterprise investment scheme will be

:41:13.:41:16.

investing in early-stage companies, helping more than 2900 companies

:41:17.:41:22.

raise over ?250 million. Does them and is to agree, that impressive

:41:23.:41:25.

package for small business will equip them to benefit from the

:41:26.:41:28.

ascension of the single market, as negotiated by the Prime Minister,

:41:29.:41:32.

including energy and services, and that is even more of an emphatic

:41:33.:41:36.

case to remain in the European Union? What I would say demand for

:41:37.:41:39.

friend: -- what I would say to my honourable

:41:40.:41:46.

friend, there is more than 100,000 firms employing fewer than 50

:41:47.:41:51.

people, exporting goods to the European Union, we want to assist

:41:52.:41:55.

them, access to the single market is important to them and to those

:41:56.:41:58.

businesses and the 800,000 people they employ.

:41:59.:42:02.

Plans to move toward quarterly online tax reporting are proving to

:42:03.:42:07.

be deeply unpopular with small businesses. Can the Chancellor

:42:08.:42:10.

confirmed the impacts on administration costs?

:42:11.:42:19.

Overall, the government is clear HMRC's target is to reduce the

:42:20.:42:27.

burden on businesses by ?400 million by the end of this Parliament and

:42:28.:42:31.

moving towards a digital taxation system can help businesses reduce

:42:32.:42:37.

costs. We are consulting on the details but I want to make it

:42:38.:42:41.

absolutely clear there will be no quarterly tax returns. This has been

:42:42.:42:53.

wrongly reported in some cases. The government has committed to

:42:54.:43:00.

raise the personal allowance to ?12,500 and the higher rate

:43:01.:43:04.

threshold to ?50,000 by the end of this Parliament. At the summer

:43:05.:43:07.

budget, the gunman took the first steps by increasing the personal

:43:08.:43:11.

allowance to ?11,000 and raising the higher rate threshold to ?43,000 in

:43:12.:43:17.

2016-17, less people will pay tax after these charges and 570,000 will

:43:18.:43:22.

be taken out of income tax altogether. Does the Chancellor

:43:23.:43:28.

agree it is better to encourage saving by increasing the tax limit

:43:29.:43:34.

on pensions rather than reducing it, especially when savings struggle to

:43:35.:43:39.

get decent returns? As a government, we want to encourage more saving. We

:43:40.:43:45.

have taken steps for reforming our tax system so pensions become more

:43:46.:43:49.

attractive, but we also need to ensure the cost of pension tax

:43:50.:43:53.

relief is targeted in the right direction.

:43:54.:44:01.

Number 14, please. Mr Speaker, on productivity, the blood has product

:44:02.:44:06.

-- has published its plan, fixing the foundations. The plan outlines

:44:07.:44:11.

the steps to encourage further investment in the drivers of

:44:12.:44:16.

productivity growth including science, education, skills and

:44:17.:44:20.

infrastructure. It also sets out the way the government promotes a

:44:21.:44:24.

dynamic economy through reforming planning laws, boosting competition

:44:25.:44:31.

and creating a Northern powerhouse. According to the latest figures from

:44:32.:44:41.

the ONS, UK productivity measured by output 18 percentage points below

:44:42.:44:44.

the average for the rest of the G-7 economies. The widest gap since

:44:45.:44:50.

records began. Which is productivity deteriorating under this Chancellor?

:44:51.:44:57.

I do not accept that, we do except productivity is a problem. But

:44:58.:45:03.

productivity output per hour is 0.7% higher than its precrisis peak. I do

:45:04.:45:09.

improving at the moment. We do need to do more which is why we have laid

:45:10.:45:14.

out a national productivity plan with a set of key targets and areas

:45:15.:45:22.

like research of infrastructure, and infrastructure Commission, cutting

:45:23.:45:24.

corporation tax and a lot more besides.

:45:25.:45:30.

Topical questions, Kirsten Oswald. Number one, Mr Speaker. The purpose

:45:31.:45:39.

of the Treasury is to ensure the productivity and stability of the

:45:40.:45:42.

economy. Did he have a chance to read the

:45:43.:45:48.

Audit Office report on financial services miss selling and is it a

:45:49.:45:51.

missed opportunity to deliver a financial advice sector protecting

:45:52.:45:56.

small sale investors when things go wrong as they did with a number of

:45:57.:46:02.

issues for my constituents. We have tried to increase consumer

:46:03.:46:05.

protection by increasing the powerful detection agency and

:46:06.:46:10.

providing greater financial advice to individuals like the money advice

:46:11.:46:15.

service and pension wise but if she has specific further ideas, I would

:46:16.:46:20.

be happy to look at them. With the government making some of

:46:21.:46:24.

the biggest investments in road and rail in history, is my right

:46:25.:46:28.

honourable friend aware of any alternative investment policies and

:46:29.:46:32.

the impact it would have on economic security, in particular the Southern

:46:33.:46:37.

powerhouse? She is right to draw attention to the big investment in

:46:38.:46:41.

our nation's infrastructure, especially transport, with the

:46:42.:46:45.

biggest rail programme since the Victorian age and biggest road

:46:46.:46:50.

programme since the 1970s. She has seen that in her area. Having an

:46:51.:46:55.

economic policy destroying confidence in the British economy

:46:56.:46:59.

would mean no investment. The OECD have estimated tax havens

:47:00.:47:08.

cost developing countries three times the global aid budgets. Does

:47:09.:47:12.

the Chancellor share my frustration that the UK overseas territories

:47:13.:47:16.

have ignored the pleas of the Prime Minister to introduce beneficial

:47:17.:47:20.

ownership registers? What more can be done to end the secrecy and lack

:47:21.:47:24.

of action? It is the case the UK is leading the

:47:25.:47:29.

way in terms of a public register of beneficial ownership. Other

:47:30.:47:34.

countries including the overseas territories have not committed to

:47:35.:47:38.

that and we engage with them. We do believe they should follow in the

:47:39.:47:41.

direction we have as other country should do.

:47:42.:47:47.

Tackling the deficit should rightly be a priority for the country. Can

:47:48.:47:51.

my right honourable friend say what steps he is taking to ensure

:47:52.:47:56.

everybody pays that their share in meeting the objectives?

:47:57.:48:01.

He is absolutely right that we want to make sure this is done fairly and

:48:02.:48:04.

under this Government, the richest pay a higher proportion of income

:48:05.:48:06.

tax than under the last Labour government. The numbers have come

:48:07.:48:12.

out this morning which for the first time showed the income tax data for

:48:13.:48:18.

the year 2013-14 when the 50p rate was reduced to 45p, which shows

:48:19.:48:27.

there was an ?8 billion increase in revenues and additional rate

:48:28.:48:29.

taxpayers. Which defies the predictions made by the Labour Party

:48:30.:48:36.

at the time. It shows what we have is lower competitive taxes paid by

:48:37.:48:40.

everybody. Figures from the PCS union showed

:48:41.:48:47.

2,000 HMRC staff in Scotland face redundancy including 150 experienced

:48:48.:48:52.

and dedicated people in Inverness. At the same time, the overtime bill

:48:53.:48:58.

is around ?6 million per month. Can the Chancellor explain to my

:48:59.:49:01.

constituents how this makes any sense at all? HMRC are engaged in

:49:02.:49:09.

changes to focus on 13 regional centres across the UK. The same

:49:10.:49:15.

proportion of the workforce will continue to be in Scotland, as is

:49:16.:49:19.

the case now. A larger percentage than the population of Scotland.

:49:20.:49:25.

What we look to do with HMRC is to improve efficiency. We do believe

:49:26.:49:30.

regional centres will enable it to achieve more for less. It already

:49:31.:49:34.

gets more money in and a better rate of return than ever before.

:49:35.:49:41.

Around 40,000 people in my constituency had benefited from the

:49:42.:49:43.

rise in the personal allowance since 2010, can he confirm the government

:49:44.:49:48.

will continue to help hard-working people keep all of the money they

:49:49.:49:51.

earn? That is what this Government was

:49:52.:49:55.

elected to deliver and we have manifesto commitments to deliver not

:49:56.:49:59.

just a ?50,000 threshold for the higher rate but a ?12,500 personal

:50:00.:50:04.

allowance so more people can see the benefit of either paying no tax or

:50:05.:50:11.

less tax if they are better paid. Can the chance lack advise when he

:50:12.:50:17.

will publish the proposals for the distribution and calculation of the

:50:18.:50:20.

apprenticeship Levi to devolved nations and whether the nations have

:50:21.:50:25.

agreed to its -- levy. We are working to get those big O Shea she

:50:26.:50:30.

was right and they are complex because of the single levy rate. We

:50:31.:50:34.

are having good discussions with the Scottish government and with the

:50:35.:50:39.

fiscal charter, we can work together for the benefits of the United

:50:40.:50:43.

Kingdom. I welcome the fact my constituents

:50:44.:50:46.

have been given more control over their finances thanks to changes

:50:47.:50:50.

implemented by the government. Can the Minister advise what steps will

:50:51.:50:54.

be taken to ensure regulation the small High Street financial advisers

:50:55.:50:57.

and insurance brokers is both there and proportion at giving the

:50:58.:51:02.

important services they provide? -- there. Can I thank him for raising

:51:03.:51:08.

this point? We have launched the financial advice market review the

:51:09.:51:11.

report around the time of the budget. We will make financial

:51:12.:51:17.

advice more affordable and available. And we will get the right

:51:18.:51:23.

regulatory balance for small firms. With reports include points the

:51:24.:51:26.

basis that the delays, will he be visit his decision to write the

:51:27.:51:34.

French and option and return with fallback options? We are working

:51:35.:51:38.

with the French government and the signs are they are committed to this

:51:39.:51:43.

project. I think this is a very good example of how the UK working with

:51:44.:51:48.

friends and attracting investment from Asia is getting a new

:51:49.:51:53.

generation of nuclear power under way -- brands. That was promised for

:51:54.:51:56.

more than 20 years and has not happened and will now take place in

:51:57.:52:00.

Somerset. Proud to have been part of a

:52:01.:52:03.

government which introduced the national living wage but I wonder if

:52:04.:52:08.

he has looked at the British Retail Consortium report, retail Twenty20,

:52:09.:52:14.

which talks about that and the impact of internet shopping? I did

:52:15.:52:21.

see that report yesterday and I think we have to accept in this

:52:22.:52:25.

House the retail industry faces an enormous amount of change especially

:52:26.:52:28.

because of what is happening on the in the net and the way people have

:52:29.:52:31.

been shopping online. One of the biggest changes we can make is to

:52:32.:52:37.

allow stores to open on a Sunday which is the biggest single day for

:52:38.:52:41.

internet shopping. We cannot at the same time say we want to protect our

:52:42.:52:47.

High Street and say they cannot open on one day of the week when the

:52:48.:52:50.

internet is open 24 hours a day. We will vote on that next week. The

:52:51.:52:58.

statement referred to the UK seeking a multilateral agreement on making

:52:59.:53:03.

tax paid by companies publicly available. Can he say what measures

:53:04.:53:09.

he will take to achieve that and on what timetable? And will he admit

:53:10.:53:13.

his Google Tech still was not a great success and accept the Public

:53:14.:53:18.

Accounts Committee call for full transparency? The Public Accounts

:53:19.:53:24.

Committee have investigated deals and they welcome to so again. They

:53:25.:53:29.

gave the HMRC a clean bill of health on its approach. We are introducing

:53:30.:53:34.

the country by country reporting, regulations came into force last

:53:35.:53:37.

week. They only happen because this Prime Minister put it on the agenda

:53:38.:53:42.

in this country and internationally and I have been calling both for the

:53:43.:53:48.

EU and at the due 24 that be an international agreement so we know

:53:49.:53:51.

what companies pay in different jurisdictions rather than just

:53:52.:53:59.

reading reports. -- and at the G20. The local economy in my constituency

:54:00.:54:03.

comprises thousands of small businesses, can he offer

:54:04.:54:05.

encouragement to the Federation of Small Businesses which is pressing

:54:06.:54:09.

for tax amplification to reduce the burden of tax administration on

:54:10.:54:18.

small businesses? What I would say is one of the areas I do think we

:54:19.:54:25.

can make progress on is in terms of the digitalisation of the tax system

:54:26.:54:30.

which can help a lot businesses. And the office of tax and publication

:54:31.:54:33.

has been strengthened, looking forward to seeing a couple of

:54:34.:54:38.

reports over the next days in terms of what we can do to help small

:54:39.:54:46.

businesses in particular. When services have been removed from

:54:47.:54:50.

local authority control and centralised in England, they had

:54:51.:54:55.

been granted the right to claim VAT. Does the Chancellor not accept that

:54:56.:54:59.

the refusal to grant that rate the Police Scotland, leaving them as the

:55:00.:55:04.

only UK force that pays VAT, just looks vindictive? To be fair, it was

:55:05.:55:12.

made perfectly clear what the position was in terms of reclaiming

:55:13.:55:18.

VAT. When the decision was made by the Scottish government to go down

:55:19.:55:22.

this course. The UK government is simply pursuing a policy that we

:55:23.:55:29.

always said we would pursue. The Chancellor will be aware debates

:55:30.:55:33.

have been held and questions in the House regarding serious allegations

:55:34.:55:36.

of collusion between banks to deliberately undervalued assets

:55:37.:55:40.

overseas. Has my right honourable friend considered the current

:55:41.:55:45.

regulations and whether there needs to be a broader remit for the SFO

:55:46.:55:50.

and other organisations to investigate the serious and growing

:55:51.:55:57.

number of allegations? I am aware of the points he is raising in

:55:58.:56:01.

Westminster Hall. And I am very keen in our system that we have a tough

:56:02.:56:08.

set of rules in terms of conduct in the banking system. And I would

:56:09.:56:11.

welcome the opportunity to meet with him and to discuss these specific

:56:12.:56:16.

allegations in more detail. If the Chancellor believes that

:56:17.:56:22.

strong steel sector is fundamental to a strong Northern powerhouse,

:56:23.:56:26.

what steps is he taking the level the playing field for the steel

:56:27.:56:30.

industry, the foundation of our manufacturing and defence industries

:56:31.:56:33.

so we can have a prosperous future to match a prosperous past?

:56:34.:56:37.

Of course, the steel industry faces a big challenge at the moment, and

:56:38.:56:43.

that is true in many other countries in the world, as the price of steel

:56:44.:56:47.

has collapsed, we have taken a number of steps to ensure a level

:56:48.:56:51.

playing Friel that piece speaks of, taking them out of the energy

:56:52.:56:55.

levies, proposing additional costs on them, making sure that local

:56:56.:57:01.

areas that have had redundancies get the support they need. -- level

:57:02.:57:05.

playing field that he speaks of. Making sure that we are buying

:57:06.:57:08.

British Steel and taking into account the social impact of the

:57:09.:57:12.

steel purchases in making value for money assessments. Full, as I have

:57:13.:57:15.

said in reply to an earlier question, working through partners

:57:16.:57:19.

in the you to make it clear that we do not and cannot support Chinese

:57:20.:57:22.

steel dumping and we need to take action against it. My right

:57:23.:57:27.

honourable friend the Chancellor is well aware of the widespread and

:57:28.:57:30.

cross-party support for a children's specialist accident and trauma

:57:31.:57:34.

department at Southampton General Hospital, can I urge him to give

:57:35.:57:38.

careful consideration to what is being put together by clinicians, I

:57:39.:57:41.

know they have sent to him, they are looking for support from a match

:57:42.:57:47.

funding bid. I am aware of the case being made, a very strong case, in

:57:48.:57:51.

my view, for the children's facilities at the Southampton

:57:52.:57:56.

hospital, the case advanced by her and other colleagues of mine

:57:57.:57:59.

including notably the member for Winchester that has boosted

:58:00.:58:02.

alongside her, it is something we are looking closely at and I will

:58:03.:58:06.

make an announcement into course. If I can follow the member in raising

:58:07.:58:14.

the key on the apprenticeship levy, the devolved governments are moving

:58:15.:58:18.

towards elections, we need to know as soon as possible, and will there

:58:19.:58:21.

be a Barnett Formula consequential on the back of it as well? Our

:58:22.:58:27.

intention is to use the principles of the Barnett Formula, to make sure

:58:28.:58:31.

that the devolved administration not just in Scotland but in Northern

:58:32.:58:34.

Ireland get the resources they need. We would urge them to spend those

:58:35.:58:38.

resources on training, ultimately it is a matter for them and the people

:58:39.:58:46.

they are accountable to. Given the importance of family investment in

:58:47.:58:48.

start-up business, particularly science and technology business are

:58:49.:58:54.

often a leap of faith is required, will the Chancellor consider lifting

:58:55.:58:56.

the restrictions on family investment in the EE ISN SCIS

:58:57.:59:01.

scheme, so that mother and father can invest alongside everybody else

:59:02.:59:05.

on the same terms. I'm happy to take that as a budget representation, I'm

:59:06.:59:11.

sure that he will say that if it ends up on budget day, he will see.

:59:12.:59:21.

-- EIS and SCIS. They are schemes that have been enormously

:59:22.:59:23.

successful, we need to make sure that they are tight enough, rather

:59:24.:59:27.

than used as a vehicle for tax avoidance, we have the balance right

:59:28.:59:31.

so far, but I'm aware of good positive proposals that people have

:59:32.:59:35.

put forward to improve it. Mr Skinner? Not at the moment, no?

:59:36.:59:43.

No... Fair enough. Helen Goodman. The Chancellor chose to give a path

:59:44.:59:47.

to his desire to Sunday trading liberalisation, I would like to ask

:59:48.:59:50.

him if he is aware of the study produced yesterday, which showed

:59:51.:59:57.

that all that there will be is a switch of activity from small shops

:59:58.:00:00.

to big shops, meaning a loss of thousands of jobs. The honourable

:00:01.:00:05.

member the Litchfield says that he has already done that question, as I

:00:06.:00:10.

have often had cause to observe, repetition is not a novel

:00:11.:00:12.

phenomenon! LAUGHTER To repeat myself... I do not think I

:00:13.:00:20.

agree with the honourable lady. It has been the case that when we have

:00:21.:00:25.

extended opening hours, we have not seen a displacement of jobs, we have

:00:26.:00:30.

seen an increase, that is the response from the retail industry.

:00:31.:00:34.

These arrangements exist in Scotland and many European countries and the

:00:35.:00:39.

US. Many which are countries with strong Christian faiths. I do not

:00:40.:00:45.

think there is a contradiction and we worry about our high street, and

:00:46.:00:50.

then do not allow high street stores to open on the day when you have the

:00:51.:00:53.

biggest Internet shopping taking place of all. It is one of the

:00:54.:00:56.

answer to helping the high street, not the only one, but it is an

:00:57.:01:03.

important one. North and North East Lincolnshire councils are currently

:01:04.:01:05.

preparing detailed regeneration plans. Can the Chancellor assure me

:01:06.:01:10.

that he will give serious consideration to these, so that my

:01:11.:01:14.

constituents can gain maximum benefit from the northern powerhouse

:01:15.:01:21.

initiative. We will give careful consideration, as I always do, to

:01:22.:01:25.

the proposals that he comes forward with, to support North Lincolnshire

:01:26.:01:28.

and his own constituency. And of course, we have been able to make

:01:29.:01:32.

investments in new roads, and make the tolls on the Humber Bridge,

:01:33.:01:36.

enterprise ends, any new ideas he has got I would love to see them!

:01:37.:01:44.

Happy Saint Davids Day to you. The Chancellor often talks about

:01:45.:01:49.

repairing the roof when the sun is shining, amassing $810 billion in an

:01:50.:01:53.

oil fund when the sun shone, in Scotland, how much did the broad

:01:54.:01:57.

shoulders of the UK say for moments like this to help the north-east of

:01:58.:02:02.

Scotland, is the figure indeed zero! We are providing support to

:02:03.:02:06.

Scotland, support that is entrenched in the fiscal framework that we have

:02:07.:02:12.

agreed with the government. He cannot duck his responsibilities, he

:02:13.:02:15.

wanted Scotland to be independent on the 24th of March, this month. And

:02:16.:02:20.

if we had gone ahead with that, if the Scottish people had voted for

:02:21.:02:23.

it, there would have been a fiscal catastrophe in Scotland, because oil

:02:24.:02:29.

revenues have fallen by over 90%. We had a question from an earlier

:02:30.:02:32.

Scottish nationalist... Order, order... It is a very unseemly

:02:33.:02:37.

mystic elation from the honourable gentleman... I remind him of his

:02:38.:02:45.

status in this house, as the chair of a select committee! He is an

:02:46.:02:49.

aspiring statesman, and he must conduct himself accordingly. --

:02:50.:02:59.

gesticulation. In response to an earlier question about productivity,

:03:00.:03:01.

the right honourable member mentioned the drivers of growth

:03:02.:03:04.

being investment in science and technology, does he, like me,

:03:05.:03:09.

welcomed the government commitment to train 17 and a half thousand more

:03:10.:03:14.

teachers in stem, and also, does he think that there is no time to waste

:03:15.:03:19.

in recruiting those teachers. -- 17,000 500. -- in STEM. This is one

:03:20.:03:26.

of the big national challenges, to get more children studying STEM and

:03:27.:03:33.

the key is to get more STEM teachers and we need more girls studying STEM

:03:34.:03:40.

as well. Schools have the tools to recruit teachers themselves. We must

:03:41.:03:46.

move on, demand invariably exceeds supply, nobody is keen to facilitate

:03:47.:03:52.

questions than I, but we do need pithy questions and pithy answers.

:03:53.:03:55.

Urgent question, Joe Cox. I call the Parliamentary

:03:56.:04:12.

undersecretary of state, Tobias Ellwood. Thank you, Mr Speaker, the

:04:13.:04:17.

Syrian conflict is now almost in its sixth year, as a result of the

:04:18.:04:21.

brutality of Bashar al-Assad and the terror of Daesh, over 250,000 people

:04:22.:04:25.

have lost their lives, half of the population has been displaced, over

:04:26.:04:30.

13 million people are in need of humanitarian aid. Russia's military

:04:31.:04:37.

intervention last autumn has compounded the violence. Russia's

:04:38.:04:41.

claims to be targeting terrorists have carried out strikes on moderate

:04:42.:04:45.

opposition groups and civilians. Over 1300 civilians have been

:04:46.:04:50.

killed, over 5800 have been injured by Russia, or regime air strikes,

:04:51.:04:55.

since the start of Russia's campaign. Our goal is that Syria

:04:56.:05:02.

becomes a stable, a peaceful state, with an inclusive government,

:05:03.:05:07.

capable of protecting its people from Daesh and other extremists.

:05:08.:05:11.

Only when this happens can stability be returned to the region, when this

:05:12.:05:16.

is necessary, to stem the flow of people fleeing Syria, and seeking

:05:17.:05:23.

refuge in Europe. The last few months have seen some progress

:05:24.:05:25.

towards this, the International Syria support group them together at

:05:26.:05:33.

the end of 2015, in Vienna, to help facilitate a return to the process,

:05:34.:05:36.

leading to a political transition in Syria. In December, opposition

:05:37.:05:43.

groups came together to form the high negotiations commission,

:05:44.:05:46.

representing the widest possible range of opposition views, and has

:05:47.:05:49.

nominated a team to negotiate with the regime. But omitted talks

:05:50.:05:57.

between the regime and opposition began under UN auspices in January.

:05:58.:06:02.

They will pause as a result of the deteriorating situation on the

:06:03.:06:08.

ground. The ISS G met again, in Munich, at the Munich Security

:06:09.:06:12.

conference, on the 11th of February, agreeing that there should be a

:06:13.:06:15.

cessation of facilities, and humanitarian access, to named

:06:16.:06:21.

locations, in Syria. Since then, the US and Russia has agreed at the

:06:22.:06:28.

highest levels on the terms of hesitation of hostilities. This

:06:29.:06:32.

agreement was codified in the UN Security Council is resolution. --

:06:33.:06:42.

cessation of hostilities. -- UN Security Council resolution. This is

:06:43.:06:44.

an important step to ending the terrible violence in Syria and

:06:45.:06:48.

bringing a lasting political settlement. The cessation came into

:06:49.:06:52.

force on the 27th of February, since then, we have seen a reduction in

:06:53.:06:57.

violence, which is of course a huge step forward. We need to see this

:06:58.:07:02.

sustained, and to see a reduction in the number of reported violations.

:07:03.:07:09.

We have received reports of a number of violations, which we have passed

:07:10.:07:14.

on the UN, and ISS G co-chairs in Vienna. We need swift action to

:07:15.:07:21.

reduce these violations, and we look to Russia, in particular, to use its

:07:22.:07:26.

influence with the regime, to insure that the cessation endures, and that

:07:27.:07:31.

there is no further violations. -- ISSG. It is crucial that the

:07:32.:07:37.

opposition see action being taken in response to allegations of

:07:38.:07:39.

violations to ensure their commitment, and that of their Syrian

:07:40.:07:44.

constituents to the process. It is essential that the cessation of

:07:45.:07:50.

facilities supports the wider political process. We support the UN

:07:51.:07:56.

special envoy, and his plans to resume peace negotiations on the 7th

:07:57.:08:02.

of March. These negotiations must deliver a political transition away

:08:03.:08:08.

from Bashar al-Assad to a legitimate government that is able to support

:08:09.:08:13.

the needs and aspirations of all Syrians and put an end to the

:08:14.:08:16.

suffering of the Syrian people. At the same time, we call for complete

:08:17.:08:21.

and unfettered human Terry and access across Syria and an end to

:08:22.:08:27.

all violations of international humanitarian law. As set out in the

:08:28.:08:31.

United Nations Security Council resolution to 254. We are relieved

:08:32.:08:37.

that desperately needed aid convoys are now arriving in some besieged

:08:38.:08:41.

areas of Syria, including those named in the Munich ISSG agreement

:08:42.:08:46.

of the 11th of February. -- UN Security Council resolution 2254. It

:08:47.:08:51.

is important that this continues. Russia has a unique influence,

:08:52.:08:56.

pressure must be put on the regime of Bashar al-Assad to lift sieges

:08:57.:08:59.

and grant full and sustained humanitarian access. -- imperative

:09:00.:09:05.

that this continues. There must be a political solution to the rises in

:09:06.:09:09.

Syria, it is imperative that these steps that I have described are then

:09:10.:09:14.

fermented by all parties and that the cessation of hostilities in

:09:15.:09:18.

jurors. The UK is working strenuously to make sure this

:09:19.:09:21.

happens and will continue to do so. -- endures. Thank you for granting

:09:22.:09:32.

this update to the house on such a vital issue, the cessation of

:09:33.:09:35.

facilities, which began on Friday, is a much-needed ray of hope in this

:09:36.:09:40.

tragic Civil War, as the minister has set out, it faces serious

:09:41.:09:45.

challenges after growing reports from international NGOs and the

:09:46.:09:49.

media of numerous violations of the truce, it was close to collapse on

:09:50.:09:54.

the weekend apparently, and the French government has asked for a

:09:55.:09:58.

meeting of the monitoring group, amid allegations that Syrian and

:09:59.:10:00.

Russian forces have breached its terms. In this context, can and is

:10:01.:10:05.

to set out specifically what action the UK is taking, within the

:10:06.:10:08.

international support group, to ensure there is robust and

:10:09.:10:12.

transparent monitoring of the cessation agreement? Secondly, is

:10:13.:10:17.

the UK joining efforts led by France, for urgent action within the

:10:18.:10:21.

ISSG, on the growing reports of violations of the cessation

:10:22.:10:24.

agreement, by Bashar al-Assad and Russia. Indeed, can the Minister

:10:25.:10:28.

address how it is even conceivable that the monitoring of this

:10:29.:10:31.

agreement is being jointly conducted by Russia, the same part of it

:10:32.:10:36.

responsible for the vast majority of recent civilian deaths. If the

:10:37.:10:40.

reports of Russian and regime violations are verified, what

:10:41.:10:45.

measures will the UK pursued to force a change in the calculations

:10:46.:10:48.

of both Vladimir Putin and Bashar al-Assad, the UK has a critical

:10:49.:10:53.

role, Mr Speaker, to play in giving everybody confidence in this system,

:10:54.:10:58.

in particular, violations will be called out and agreements protected.

:10:59.:11:02.

Is the government considering further targeted sanctions against

:11:03.:11:05.

Russian entities, in the event of further violations? Further, what is

:11:06.:11:10.

the UK's assessment of the mobilisation of Bashar al-Assad's

:11:11.:11:15.

forces and militias to encircle Aleppo is this a direct violation of

:11:16.:11:18.

the cessation agreement? And can the Minister confirm that those areas

:11:19.:11:24.

where al-Nusra, or any other Security Council designated

:11:25.:11:26.

terrorist group, are mixed with the moderate opposition, these areas are

:11:27.:11:31.

covered by the cessation agreement. And if this is Asian holds this

:11:32.:11:35.

week, can you also confirmed that negotiations on political transition

:11:36.:11:40.

will be at the very top of the agenda at the meeting in Geneva next

:11:41.:11:44.

week. And finally, in light of the reduction of islands, it is still a

:11:45.:11:48.

matter of deep concern to many members of the house at the lack of

:11:49.:11:52.

access to besieged areas, inside Syria, in particular, just outside

:11:53.:11:58.

of Damascus, where people are starving to death. There is no Isil

:11:59.:12:03.

or al-Nusra in that town, it is unacceptable that the Bashar

:12:04.:12:06.

al-Assad regime with the backing of Russia is preventing this

:12:07.:12:10.

life-saving aid, paid for by the taxpayer to get to the most

:12:11.:12:13.

vulnerable. Does the government or its partners have a deadline by

:12:14.:12:16.

which aid will reach that town and other besieged areas?

:12:17.:12:25.

Can I pray tribute to her, then -- can I pay tribute to her

:12:26.:12:35.

commencement? I pay tribute to the work she does and the way she raises

:12:36.:12:43.

these matters. I will do my best and I will write to her with more

:12:44.:12:49.

detail. I am pleased to see I am joined and supported by Mike

:12:50.:12:55.

colleagues and from the Ministry of Defence colleagues. They hosted the

:12:56.:13:00.

Syria conference a couple of weeks ago to make sure that funds were

:13:01.:13:05.

available for the United Nations organisations to get to the

:13:06.:13:09.

necessary areas to provide the aid and assistance once the cessation of

:13:10.:13:16.

hostilities has taken place. There has been different levels of success

:13:17.:13:19.

and trucks getting through. We have two get confirmation from the regime

:13:20.:13:25.

itself that the trucks can get safe passage. There has been the use of

:13:26.:13:30.

air drops for the first time which has been less accessible for obvious

:13:31.:13:36.

reasons, who receives the kit on the ground, the weather conditions,

:13:37.:13:43.

where they land, ownership is difficult but further drops will

:13:44.:13:46.

take place in the future as well. What more can be done? It is

:13:47.:13:52.

imperative that those putting together the ceasefire itself which

:13:53.:13:57.

is at the highest levels, from telephone calls between President

:13:58.:14:03.

Putin and President Obama, coordinating and creating the

:14:04.:14:06.

verification model itself. That is not fully in place and this is

:14:07.:14:11.

highly complex because of the number of players involved across Syria.

:14:12.:14:15.

And the challenges of making sure verification is can take place. The

:14:16.:14:22.

UK is pushing the co-chairs to investigate all allegations and

:14:23.:14:27.

using our own capabilities to feed any violations we have become aware

:14:28.:14:32.

of so they can be investigated. We have said additional staff to the UN

:14:33.:14:35.

in Geneva to assist in this advert as well. And negotiating and

:14:36.:14:42.

discussing these matters with our UN Security Council colleagues as well.

:14:43.:14:47.

She talks about the difficulties in Aleppo and this is concerning, and

:14:48.:14:51.

what is happening in the build-up to the cessation of hostilities, people

:14:52.:14:54.

taking advantage before the cessation came into place on

:14:55.:15:01.

February 27. As I said, it is imperative that Russia shows this

:15:02.:15:06.

leadership and that it recognises it has a unique place and influence

:15:07.:15:14.

with the Assad regime to make sure the purpose is to allow that

:15:15.:15:20.

political transition. She asks about the talks taking place, that is on

:15:21.:15:23.

the 7th of March and is critical to get those parties together. They

:15:24.:15:28.

broke apart last time because of the bombing that took place. It was the

:15:29.:15:33.

UN envoy that closed the meeting down before somebody walked out

:15:34.:15:37.

again. We do not want to see that repeated and we encourage parties to

:15:38.:15:41.

resume those discussions and take advantage of the truce in place at

:15:42.:15:47.

the moment and we hope they are successful.

:15:48.:15:52.

Notwithstanding the honourable lady's and central -- understand or

:15:53.:15:57.

scepticism about Russian intentions, this ceasefire would not have

:15:58.:16:02.

happened if it had not been pushed for hard by the Russians alongside

:16:03.:16:09.

the United States. The Minister referred to verification methods,

:16:10.:16:13.

what practical military to military coordination is going on between the

:16:14.:16:19.

Russians and the coalition to ensure any breaches of the ceasefire will

:16:20.:16:23.

be immediately understood and brought to an end as soon as

:16:24.:16:27.

possible so the ceasefire is correctly observed without accidents

:16:28.:16:31.

and either side not knowing what the other is doing? The chairman of the

:16:32.:16:38.

Foreign Affairs Select Committee raises an important point which I

:16:39.:16:42.

can divide into two. There is a deep conviction system which makes sure

:16:43.:16:48.

coalition aircraft and involvement is separated from that of Russian

:16:49.:16:55.

involvement and that has been in place some time. This is a

:16:56.:16:59.

verification mechanism of the cessation of hostilities. The

:17:00.:17:03.

process has yet to be put in place. It is still being agreed between the

:17:04.:17:09.

co-chairs, between Russia and the United States and details will

:17:10.:17:15.

emerge soon. I very much welcome the urgent

:17:16.:17:19.

question by my right honourable friend and I would like to pay

:17:20.:17:22.

tribute to her excellent work in this area. The world community is

:17:23.:17:28.

watching this ceasefire very closely and we want it to be successful, not

:17:29.:17:34.

least to allow humanitarian aid into areas blighted by the conflict. And

:17:35.:17:38.

to give a boost to the tentative peace talks. As the ceasefire has

:17:39.:17:42.

been in operation a couple of days, I would like to ask a number of

:17:43.:17:46.

questions. The letter from the Syrian higher national council to

:17:47.:17:51.

bank e-mailing alleges 15 breaches of the ceasefire by Russia and the

:17:52.:17:58.

Assad regime. France called for an urgent meeting of the Syrian

:17:59.:18:02.

national support group, when will this group B meeting and what powers

:18:03.:18:06.

does it have to make a ruling on breaches of the ceasefire and does

:18:07.:18:10.

it need unanimity to do so? Amongst reported breaches, the most worrying

:18:11.:18:16.

was a report of a gas attack in the urban area with indications of a

:18:17.:18:21.

link to the Assad regime. Can he confirm whether the UK government is

:18:22.:18:25.

aware of the attack and what special provisions are in place to

:18:26.:18:28.

investigate chemical weapons attacks? One key problem is a lack

:18:29.:18:34.

of agreement on which groups are terror organisations and what action

:18:35.:18:38.

is allowed. Can he explain whether this will be discussed at the Syria

:18:39.:18:44.

international support group. And to address the humanitarian system, we

:18:45.:18:48.

need accessed areas without hostilities so can the Minister

:18:49.:18:50.

explain what steps have been taken to establish the geographical

:18:51.:18:57.

demarcation of the ceasefire? Over the past six months, Russia have

:18:58.:19:01.

repeatedly acted to prolong this conflict so can I ask the Minister

:19:02.:19:05.

what discussions there have been with allies in the EU to put

:19:06.:19:08.

pressure on Russia to abide by the ceasefire? And Saudi Arabia also has

:19:09.:19:15.

a key position of influence. It especially concerning to hear of a

:19:16.:19:20.

possible Saudi response to Russian action. Has the Minister made any

:19:21.:19:24.

representations to the Saudi government about this? And can I ask

:19:25.:19:32.

about the status of the group which were not a signature to the

:19:33.:19:36.

ceasefire but had indicated they would abide by it? They now claim

:19:37.:19:40.

their headquarters were attacked by Russian air strikes. A claim backed

:19:41.:19:47.

up by several sources. Can the Minister confirm whether this group

:19:48.:19:51.

is considered to be outside of the terms of the ceasefire by the UK and

:19:52.:19:59.

the US? The honourable lady asks a series of

:20:00.:20:03.

questions. This week, the purpose of this latest UN Security Council

:20:04.:20:11.

resolution to 268 was confirmed and underlines the importance of a

:20:12.:20:16.

previous resolution about the access and ability to gain access into

:20:17.:20:20.

different areas where ownership is sometimes confusing. What happens is

:20:21.:20:26.

it is done on a very local basis to make sure agreements have taken

:20:27.:20:31.

place so UN convoys can go through and they have the series of

:20:32.:20:35.

permissions and do not get stopped by the checkpoints, and the food is

:20:36.:20:39.

used as a weapon of war and taken away. It is difficult to give a

:20:40.:20:45.

comprehensive reply. But it is done on an area by area basis. And the

:20:46.:20:50.

method the delivery is taken is done by the threat level. There are areas

:20:51.:20:57.

surrounded by Daesh and it is impossible to have these agreements.

:20:58.:21:00.

She spoke about the chemical weapons attack. There is a number of UN

:21:01.:21:06.

organisations looking into a wider use of chemical weapons across

:21:07.:21:12.

Syria. They just in the of completing a report which will

:21:13.:21:17.

appear at the United Nations shortly and I will contact her with more

:21:18.:21:21.

details on that. In relation to the works being done in order to provide

:21:22.:21:28.

international humanitarian aid, I go back to the conference we had where

:21:29.:21:32.

we were able to garner a lot of support including from Saudi Arabia

:21:33.:21:37.

to make sure money is filtered through to the UN organisations, to

:21:38.:21:41.

make sure they have access to get through to the various locations.

:21:42.:21:47.

The agreements she mentions, a number of other organisations and

:21:48.:21:53.

groups she mentions. These have not been considered as part of the

:21:54.:21:58.

moderate packages. They have not been included in the discussions and

:21:59.:22:02.

will not be represented as part of the talks when the Saudis brought

:22:03.:22:13.

the moderate groups together. May I ask where the Foreign Secretary is?

:22:14.:22:17.

I know he is very busy but the House of Commons must come first. We are

:22:18.:22:22.

in need of an explanation. Make a suggest the Labour and Conservative

:22:23.:22:28.

establishments, whether we are talking about Qaddafi or Assad, have

:22:29.:22:35.

merely provided an opening for four worst totalitarian movements. It is

:22:36.:22:38.

arguable we have had little influence at all in this latest row

:22:39.:22:42.

in peace negotiations as the Americans cosy up to the Russians.

:22:43.:22:46.

So will the Foreign Office except now there is some merit in Assad

:22:47.:22:51.

being allowed to go gracefully although elections are never

:22:52.:22:56.

perfect? Firstly, Mr Speaker, can I say I will not take it personally my

:22:57.:23:01.

honourable friend feels I am not adequate to respond to the questions

:23:02.:23:07.

today. I would say this has been an urgent question. The Foreign

:23:08.:23:10.

Secretary was not able to get here but I will certainly do my best to

:23:11.:23:14.

convey the fact my honourable friend would love to have been in place

:23:15.:23:18.

instead of myself. With regards to the transition process, we ended the

:23:19.:23:25.

year in 2015 after five years of hostility were for the first time,

:23:26.:23:29.

we had opposition groups coming together. For the first time, we had

:23:30.:23:33.

the international stakeholders including Saudi Arabia and Iran

:23:34.:23:38.

around the table discussing these matters at the Vienna talks. First

:23:39.:23:43.

time a transition process was to Scotland. The first time an 18 month

:23:44.:23:48.

process was being put into place and the first time life after Assad was

:23:49.:23:54.

considered. It is important to recognise it must be for the people

:23:55.:23:58.

of Syria to decide their fake. All the people of Syria, Kurds, soon

:23:59.:24:11.

ease. -- Sunnis. 80% of the deaths in Syria have been caused by Assad

:24:12.:24:16.

and his regime and so we say it would be inappropriate for him to

:24:17.:24:19.

participate in the long-term of the country, but it will be, the purpose

:24:20.:24:24.

of bringing these organisations together to discuss the Democratic

:24:25.:24:29.

process, they will decide the process which will be a transition

:24:30.:24:35.

away from Assad. Can I join the chairman of the

:24:36.:24:39.

Select Committee in urging that the correct policy of the government is

:24:40.:24:46.

to give every facility to the rapid establishment of verification

:24:47.:24:50.

regime? We can engage in the foot at allegations about who is breaching

:24:51.:24:53.

what but this is the only ceasefire we have got. Repair -- reports this

:24:54.:24:59.

morning from Kurdish forces about our Nato Allied using the

:25:00.:25:05.

opportunity to build forces against them, so establishment of

:25:06.:25:08.

verification process is key. Can the Minister tell us in more detail

:25:09.:25:13.

about the urgency of attempts to bring humanitarian relief, which

:25:14.:25:17.

convoys have been allowed, which had been stopped, which air strikes have

:25:18.:25:20.

been successful and not? Given the overwhelming urgency of the

:25:21.:25:25.

humanitarian crisis, the House would appreciate the exact detail and if

:25:26.:25:28.

he could find a way to facilitate that for members.

:25:29.:25:37.

I have gone into detail, Mr Speaker, about the urgency of the

:25:38.:25:41.

humanitarian relief and this is one reason why a cessation of

:25:42.:25:44.

hostilities was needed. We have seen in places like the day, people have

:25:45.:25:49.

resorted to eating pets and animals, such is the plight of their concern.

:25:50.:25:58.

Thanks to the first agreements arranged by John Kerry at the Munich

:25:59.:26:02.

Security conference which led to discussions between Putin and

:26:03.:26:08.

President Obama, we have seen this build-up in cessation of austerity

:26:09.:26:12.

is. I was cautiously optimistic when I saw President Putin break into and

:26:13.:26:17.

make a row live television appearance on Russian television

:26:18.:26:23.

stating his commitment to ensuring a cessation of hostilities came into

:26:24.:26:28.

place. However, experience shows and I am sure the right honourable

:26:29.:26:33.

gentleman is aware that whenever you ceasefire and cessation of

:26:34.:26:36.

hostilities, when a deadline is put in, there is a measure, an effort by

:26:37.:26:42.

hardliners and opportunists to take advantage of the time period before

:26:43.:26:46.

the deadline is in place to gain territory, to further their lines

:26:47.:26:54.

and make a greater impact. So when the hostilities cease, they are in a

:26:55.:26:59.

stronger position, and that is what we have seen. What we require is

:27:00.:27:03.

every country, Turkey, Russia, the Assad regime, to hold fast, to allow

:27:04.:27:09.

and recognise the world is watching. The humanitarian situation is dire

:27:10.:27:15.

but there is an international community that wants to help. That

:27:16.:27:19.

can only help if it has access to the areas I have articulated

:27:20.:27:20.

earlier. Is there any evidence whatsoever

:27:21.:27:30.

that Bashar al-Assad would be willing to go graciously or not, and

:27:31.:27:35.

is not all of the evidence showing that he is determined to stay in

:27:36.:27:38.

power? As far as Russia is concerned, again, would it not be

:27:39.:27:45.

right to come to the conclusion that it has never been interested in

:27:46.:27:49.

using its military might against Daesh, first and foremost, it wants

:27:50.:27:53.

to consolidate in every possible way regime of Bashar al-Assad, which as

:27:54.:27:57.

ministers say has been responsible for some of the worst crimes which

:27:58.:28:02.

have been committed in the last 25 or 30 years, Russia has a large

:28:03.:28:07.

moral responsibility for what is a caring on the ground. -- occurring.

:28:08.:28:14.

I partly agree with the honourable gentleman, he makes it very clear as

:28:15.:28:19.

I have done, the atrocities that Bashar al-Assad has incurred, that

:28:20.:28:22.

is why we believe there is no long-term place for him in this.

:28:23.:28:29.

What has happened is a recognition that there must be a transition

:28:30.:28:33.

process, it must be clear, it is not just Bashar al-Assad we should be

:28:34.:28:37.

talking about, it is Bashar al-Assad and his cohorts, his family and so

:28:38.:28:41.

on, they have a firm grip at the top of the regime itself, it simply is

:28:42.:28:46.

not possible to remove the individual man and assume that life

:28:47.:28:49.

can move on, it is far more complex. As I'm sure the honourable gentleman

:28:50.:28:53.

will be aware. We should also recognise, and this is no excuse for

:28:54.:28:57.

the behaviour of Russia, it has had a long-term interest in the country

:28:58.:29:02.

since 1946, when it began to train the new Syrian army, when Syria

:29:03.:29:07.

gained independence. Syria backed the Soviets during the Cold War,

:29:08.:29:11.

Bashar al-Assad's father trained as a Mick pilot, there is a bond

:29:12.:29:14.

between the country we cannot ignore.

:29:15.:29:27.

The people of Syria deserve better than this. Dodgers won grouping, all

:29:28.:29:34.

of the area, not just one specific sectarian area. Government has

:29:35.:29:41.

placed importance on the moderates taking an Bashar al-Assad to swing

:29:42.:29:44.

around and take the ground battle to Daesh, given that we all accept air

:29:45.:29:51.

strikes. It is becoming increasingly evident that there is too many

:29:52.:29:55.

aircraft chasing too few targets. What progress for those blinds, and

:29:56.:29:59.

is the government still convinced that there is 70,000 moderates left.

:30:00.:30:07.

This question has been raised before, about the 70,000, and it is

:30:08.:30:11.

an estimate, we can understand that this is a very divisive group of

:30:12.:30:18.

people that have been standing up to Bashar al-Assad since the Arab

:30:19.:30:22.

Spring. Pockets of resistance which have a choice, when Bashar al-Assad

:30:23.:30:30.

began to bomb and kill his own people, to go extremist,

:30:31.:30:34.

fundamentalist, or say, no, I want something different, I do not want

:30:35.:30:38.

to be part of this party, I want the freedoms that I am seeing developing

:30:39.:30:43.

in other parts of the other arable world as well. They are distant,

:30:44.:30:49.

from Aleppo to Idlib through parts of Damascus, to Dara town, these are

:30:50.:30:53.

pockets of elements, people who stood up, and they are the ones that

:30:54.:30:57.

need to come together and have come together through the talks that have

:30:58.:31:00.

taken place, thanks to the leadership of Saudi Arabia. --

:31:01.:31:03.

Daraa. And they are now participating in the Geneva talks as

:31:04.:31:07.

well. They are not united in the sense we would like them to be, but

:31:08.:31:10.

they are moving forward, and they need to be part of the process that

:31:11.:31:13.

works out what the country looks like post-Bashar al-Assad. The

:31:14.:31:19.

people of Syria have paid a dreadful price, in my view, for our failure

:31:20.:31:24.

to act, both three years ago, after Bashar al-Assad use chemical weapons

:31:25.:31:27.

against his own people, but even sooner. Want to ask about another

:31:28.:31:34.

glimmer of hope, elections in Iran, and the impact they may have, in

:31:35.:31:37.

particular in the Middle East, and whether or not he thinks that what

:31:38.:31:40.

has happened in Iran indicates the policy that he and the previous

:31:41.:31:43.

Labour government and Europe have pursued with the rainy and regime.

:31:44.:31:50.

-- Iranian regime. Many of us will look back, there is no point in

:31:51.:31:54.

saying so, how different life could have been had we taken a different

:31:55.:32:00.

action on that punitive strike. How things would have changed. The

:32:01.:32:05.

reason Bashar al-Assad is back in play now is because Russia has

:32:06.:32:09.

backed Bashar al-Assad, he was falling, he was slowly on the

:32:10.:32:13.

demise. They have come back in, Russia has come back in to support

:32:14.:32:17.

their person, that is why we are in the position we are in today. He

:32:18.:32:21.

asks a relevant question, slightly outside of the scope of this, I hope

:32:22.:32:26.

that with your permission I will simply say, we are cautiously

:32:27.:32:29.

optimistic, welcoming what has happened in terrain, the early

:32:30.:32:34.

results, yet, but both on the committee of experts and indeed on

:32:35.:32:41.

the list itself, to see the moderates -- Tehran. . The first

:32:42.:32:44.

indication, the first opportunity for the people of Iran to have a say

:32:45.:32:48.

in the future of their country. They will be judged by their actions,

:32:49.:32:51.

because their proxy involvement, with Hezbollah, in Lebanon, in

:32:52.:32:58.

Damascus, in Syria, in Baghdad, in Iraq, in Senna, in Yemen, and in

:32:59.:33:04.

Bahrain as well, if we see changes there, then we know that we're

:33:05.:33:07.

working with different Iran. -- Senaa. Until then we should expect

:33:08.:33:16.

the same. Can I begin by paying tribute to the honourable member who

:33:17.:33:20.

brought this up, following the statement by John Kerry that it may

:33:21.:33:24.

be too late to keep it as a whole, then Minister update the house on

:33:25.:33:27.

any conversations he has had with his American counterpart on the

:33:28.:33:28.

possible partition of Syria. It is for the people of Syria to

:33:29.:33:39.

determine their future, as to how the country needs to be managed, how

:33:40.:33:43.

it should be governed itself. We are at very early stages. I think it

:33:44.:33:47.

would be wrong, and history shows Britain has not always been best

:33:48.:33:51.

placed to make its assessments, not least in this particular patch of

:33:52.:34:00.

the world. Russia has absolutely no desire to bring hope or humanitarian

:34:01.:34:04.

relief, I am sure, to many areas of Syria, what they want is to increase

:34:05.:34:09.

fear, despair, and the collapse of the opposition. They also hope that

:34:10.:34:17.

the peace period will bring a greater influx of refugees, fleeing

:34:18.:34:22.

from Syria, towards the West, can I ask the Minister, are we monitoring

:34:23.:34:27.

when that is happening, and are we using our intelligence and

:34:28.:34:33.

surveillance capabilities as part of the monitoring of the apparent need

:34:34.:34:38.

for observation of what the Russians and Bashar al-Assad are doing and

:34:39.:34:44.

the violation of the peace process. The honourable lady, who I know

:34:45.:34:49.

personally, the number of committee she is involved with, puts her

:34:50.:34:53.

finger on an important point, it is not just Syria, it is about the

:34:54.:34:58.

wider strategic implications of what is happening, not just here, but the

:34:59.:35:04.

role that Russia is playing on the international stage, not least with

:35:05.:35:07.

Ukraine and Crimea, and the consequences of the influx of

:35:08.:35:16.

refugees, and that political impact. That is all the more reason why we

:35:17.:35:20.

need to continue that pressure. Making sure that the verification

:35:21.:35:24.

mechanism comes into play as soon as possible. It is a moral outrage to

:35:25.:35:33.

take the life of any nonconfidence, what estimate has been made of the

:35:34.:35:38.

number of noncombatants made by Russia, and can we be sure that the

:35:39.:35:42.

royal air force is not responsible for any deaths of noncombatants? --

:35:43.:35:46.

it is amoral outrage to take the life of any noncombatant. I can

:35:47.:35:49.

confirm that, the rules of engagement that we follow are very

:35:50.:35:55.

robust, as I said in opening remarks, over 1300 civilians, we

:35:56.:36:02.

have estimated, have been killed by Russia or supported Russian regime

:36:03.:36:06.

air strikes, and over 5800 have been injured.

:36:07.:36:11.

On the subject of air drops, can the Minister confirm first of all

:36:12.:36:16.

whether the RAF have been involved, whether they are taking place with

:36:17.:36:22.

the formal agreement or just the acquiescence of the Russians and

:36:23.:36:25.

Bashar al-Assad, and finally, if they could be scaled up, if Bashar

:36:26.:36:29.

al-Assad and Vladimir Putin continue to starve Syrian civilians. The

:36:30.:36:36.

coalition does a lot of planning in order to establish what is the best

:36:37.:36:42.

mechanism to provide the aid relief in any particular area, the RAF

:36:43.:36:47.

itself has not been involved in air drops per se, the United States has

:36:48.:36:51.

been leading on that. As I say, it has been with marginal effect,

:36:52.:36:54.

subject to weather conditions, subject to who is on the ground, the

:36:55.:37:02.

areas of who receives the age, and then it is luck, as to how it is

:37:03.:37:07.

distributed, often it is unfairly distributed, because it is the

:37:08.:37:11.

strongest that ends up grabbing the kit, and taking it away with them.

:37:12.:37:14.

That is why the preferred mechanism is getting permission to go through

:37:15.:37:18.

the various checkpoints, and indeed, deliver this by truck. May I also

:37:19.:37:25.

paid tribute to the honourable member, who has done a lot of work

:37:26.:37:29.

on this area over the past few months, and indeed, in her previous

:37:30.:37:33.

incarnation, over many years. Cannot also paid tribute to the minister

:37:34.:37:36.

who has done a lot of work the region, we have spoken a lot about

:37:37.:37:39.

the pressure the Russians have brought to bear on the opposition to

:37:40.:37:44.

the regime, could you also tell us about the pressure that the Russians

:37:45.:37:47.

have brought to bear on allies in the region, and what he's doing,

:37:48.:37:50.

working with the Lebanese, the Iraqis, the Jordanians, and the tax,

:37:51.:37:54.

to ensure that we deliver a peaceful solution to Syria, and not a

:37:55.:38:00.

wasteland made by Russian bombs. Firstly, I am grateful for his

:38:01.:38:06.

comments, and his right to outline or remark upon the impact, firstly,

:38:07.:38:12.

that Syria's situation is having an its neighbours, and we should all

:38:13.:38:17.

pay tribute to the generosity of countries such as Jordan and Lebanon

:38:18.:38:23.

that have taken in so many refugees. The whole house can appreciate and

:38:24.:38:27.

support that much of the funds we provide our going to other countries

:38:28.:38:32.

as well. One of the great changes that took place was to change the

:38:33.:38:38.

employment opportunities for those Syrian refugees, so that they are

:38:39.:38:43.

not a burden on the domestic employment situations. That is

:38:44.:38:48.

partly because of the funding coming through, the opportunities being

:38:49.:38:51.

made, other countries. We are doing our best to make sure that Turkey

:38:52.:38:55.

plays its role, a very complicated role that it has, with its racing

:38:56.:38:59.

chip with the Kurds as well, to moderate its actions, and make sure

:39:00.:39:04.

that cessation of hostilities is able to last. Russianaggression has

:39:05.:39:15.

made bilateral relations rightly strained and limited over recent

:39:16.:39:20.

years. -- Russia's aggression. The government says that it is urging

:39:21.:39:25.

Russia to play a more constructive role in the Syria conflict. Can he

:39:26.:39:30.

outline for the house in what ways the government has contact with the

:39:31.:39:37.

Russian Federation at present? Firstly he is very aware of these

:39:38.:39:41.

matters, travelled to Kiev with him on a visit, a couple of years ago,

:39:42.:39:47.

and so I am very familiar with his knowledge, his understanding in

:39:48.:39:51.

these matters, and again, I think that is very important to recognise.

:39:52.:39:57.

There are a series of opportunities where the international community

:39:58.:39:59.

comes together, Foreign Minister said Guy love wrath, along with John

:40:00.:40:06.

Kerry and our Foreign Secretary, unable to meet with a regular

:40:07.:40:08.

drumbeat. -- sur bilateral. There was the Munich Security

:40:09.:40:20.

conference, not only was the public statement, made, but also private

:40:21.:40:28.

bilateral that has taken place. This year was different, it was important

:40:29.:40:32.

to recognise the involvement of president Makro Barack Obama -- the

:40:33.:40:39.

involvement of president Barack Obama and president Vladimir Putin.

:40:40.:40:45.

I would like to pay tribute to my near neighbour, for continuing to

:40:46.:40:48.

bring the plight of the Syrian people to this chamber, all sides

:40:49.:40:52.

must respect this ceasefire. What discussions has the Minister had

:40:53.:40:56.

with the Turkish government, about reports that Turkish forces have

:40:57.:41:07.

been shelling Syrian Kurds. I'm aware of those reports, and we have

:41:08.:41:13.

encouraged Turkey to recognise the importance of the cessation of

:41:14.:41:17.

hostilities, the opportunity it brings to further political

:41:18.:41:19.

engagement which will be an opportunity to solve some of the

:41:20.:41:26.

problems that it is enduring. What we do not want to see is people

:41:27.:41:31.

being advantageous in this manner, and actually compounding the

:41:32.:41:35.

problem, by taking advantage of the cessation of hostilities to gain

:41:36.:41:41.

ground. We have been working with Turkey to encourage them to

:41:42.:41:43.

recognise this cessation of facilities as well.

:41:44.:41:51.

There have been serious offences to human dignity and the people of

:41:52.:41:57.

Syria must know that we see what is happening to them. The Minister, on

:41:58.:42:03.

previous occasions, indicated a timescale that the international

:42:04.:42:07.

community was working too. Could he update us on that timetable?

:42:08.:42:14.

This is not for me to bring the parties together, they will

:42:15.:42:18.

recommence discussions on the 7th of March, so this was not my timetable.

:42:19.:42:22.

It was first agreed at the Vienna talks as a tentative idea that an 18

:42:23.:42:28.

month transition programme would come through, but this was prior to

:42:29.:42:32.

the bombings that had taken place by Russia which unfortunately led to

:42:33.:42:37.

the January talks falling apart. So I hope we will still be on a

:42:38.:42:41.

programme of transition in 18 months but it is for the UN merger talks to

:42:42.:42:46.

confirm if that is still on track or not.

:42:47.:42:54.

Consistently effective ground forces against Daesh and -- in Syria and

:42:55.:43:03.

Iraq are the Kurds but Turkey uses any excuse including the present

:43:04.:43:07.

ceasefire to attack them and the greater them. When is her Majesty's

:43:08.:43:13.

government going to take this issue seriously -- degrade. He needs to

:43:14.:43:19.

call in the Turkish Ambassador said this behaviour is not acceptable on

:43:20.:43:25.

any level and will not defeat Daesh in Syria and Iraq without the Kurds

:43:26.:43:28.

and Turkey needs to seriously think again.

:43:29.:43:34.

My honourable friend articulates the complexity of the challenge we face

:43:35.:43:39.

in Syria, with so many moving parts and organisations and entities

:43:40.:43:44.

pursuing quite separate agendas which makes it very difficult

:43:45.:43:48.

indeed. The situation between Turkey and the PKK, which is a listed

:43:49.:43:52.

terrorist group from a British perspective as well, is well

:43:53.:43:57.

recognised I've is House and we do encourage Turkey to recognise the

:43:58.:44:02.

cessation of hostilities -- recognised by this House. But I

:44:03.:44:06.

recognise the incredible work the Kurds in Iraq have done to liberate,

:44:07.:44:14.

to hold back Daesh and liberate territory, and they will play a

:44:15.:44:18.

pivotal role in the eventual operation of Mosul -- liberation.

:44:19.:44:28.

Which is significant. Last week, the defence let the committee went to

:44:29.:44:32.

the Middle East and the discussions were focused on Syria and a peace

:44:33.:44:37.

process and agreement and we welcome the peace agreement as it is. But

:44:38.:44:42.

the one thing that came up was the position of Turkey. And very

:44:43.:44:48.

clearly, their position to destabilise the cessation in the

:44:49.:44:51.

Middle East. They have a truly head a mystic attitude embedded

:44:52.:44:56.

politically and military with some very strange bedfellows. What

:44:57.:45:00.

discussions have taken place with Turkey so they stop buying oil from

:45:01.:45:05.

Daesh controlled territories and selling it for them, and to stop

:45:06.:45:09.

Turkey attacking coalition forces? If they want to be part of the

:45:10.:45:15.

coalition, we need the help. Turkey does not purchase oil from Daesh.

:45:16.:45:19.

There is a movement of black-market oil, no doubt. And what is it porous

:45:20.:45:27.

market. Every effort is made by Turkey to make sure that is cut

:45:28.:45:32.

down. Not so long ago, there was a terrible attack in Istanbul which

:45:33.:45:38.

was committed by Daesh so Turkey is as committed as everybody else to

:45:39.:45:41.

make sure they participate in the coalition's efforts to defeat the

:45:42.:45:49.

Daesh. After five years of death and

:45:50.:45:53.

destruction, it is welcome there is a ceasefire and hope for the future,

:45:54.:45:57.

but can he reassure me that given the levels of war crime and

:45:58.:46:00.

brutality, anybody involved in the transitional process, that will not

:46:01.:46:07.

mean they do not face justice at a later stage? That is an important

:46:08.:46:11.

point and efforts have been made to make sure all war crimes will be

:46:12.:46:16.

collated and this will not be forgotten and we will return to the

:46:17.:46:20.

subject in a very serious way once cessation of hostilities takes place

:46:21.:46:25.

and we are able to move forward. The Minister is right to say the

:46:26.:46:30.

statement by the international Syrian support group was very

:46:31.:46:34.

welcome, but it flies in the face of the actions of the Russians that

:46:35.:46:37.

they are signing up to the transition plan when at the same

:46:38.:46:41.

time they bolstering the Assad regime. What is the extent to which

:46:42.:46:46.

he believes the Russians understand the level of transition that is

:46:47.:46:50.

required and that there is a recognition amongst them the Assad

:46:51.:46:55.

regime needs to come to an end for peace in Syria? He makes a very

:46:56.:47:01.

important point as to making sure there is a verification process in

:47:02.:47:05.

place and we are doing our part to make sure we pass information to the

:47:06.:47:09.

United Nations. There will be a report going to the Secretary

:47:10.:47:14.

general of the UN in 15 days and day intervals after that, confirming the

:47:15.:47:19.

situation of the cessation and any breaches that take place. This is

:47:20.:47:24.

very important for the United Kingdom, America and other countries

:47:25.:47:28.

to keep the pressure on Russia, to make sure they recognise their

:47:29.:47:32.

unique decision in making sure we do on this so that we can expedite the

:47:33.:47:37.

political process and alleviate the humanitarian situation in this

:47:38.:47:43.

country. If cessation holds and continues to hold, could he explain

:47:44.:47:50.

what impact he thinks cessation will have on the flow of displaced people

:47:51.:47:55.

within Syria and Syrian refugees, and maybe he could collaborate maybe

:47:56.:48:02.

a bit premature on what role Britain could play in making sure those

:48:03.:48:08.

Syrian refugees can return home? Emigrate for for the question

:48:09.:48:13.

because it allows me to express, I think, the success of the Syrian

:48:14.:48:15.

conference that took place in Kabul of weeks ago -- am grateful for. The

:48:16.:48:23.

London conference. In a day, we gained a record amount of pledges

:48:24.:48:26.

from across the world, over $11 billion. That is important to the

:48:27.:48:33.

Syrian people recognise the international community is ready to

:48:34.:48:37.

support them. Once they see a cessation is likely to pass and a

:48:38.:48:41.

transition is likely to take place, that is when they do make the

:48:42.:48:48.

decision not to turn their back on their country and not want to find a

:48:49.:48:55.

better life in Europe. The right to unimpeded humanitarian

:48:56.:48:58.

aid is set in international law but as the Minister has pointed out, it

:48:59.:49:02.

depends on the assessment of the situation on the ground. And in a

:49:03.:49:05.

number of cases, the Minister has said the assessment of the Assad

:49:06.:49:10.

regime itself as to whether convoys even leave. Can he assure me he will

:49:11.:49:15.

express to the Assad regime and the Russians the high importance the

:49:16.:49:21.

wider international community places on dealing with this humanitarian

:49:22.:49:25.

crisis, which is urgent, in the next couple of weeks? Happy to do that

:49:26.:49:29.

and that will be articulated through the UN special envoy at the talks

:49:30.:49:36.

that recommence on the 7th of March. Can I draw his attention to the

:49:37.:49:40.

reports from the very few international journalists on the

:49:41.:49:44.

ground in Aleppo and Syria saying that many people, especially rebels

:49:45.:49:48.

fighting against the regime, they are not in favour of a ceasefire,

:49:49.:49:52.

precisely because they believe it will just be used by the regime and

:49:53.:49:57.

Russia to take ground by stealth, which emphasises the importance of

:49:58.:50:01.

getting aid into those communities and holding the regime to account.

:50:02.:50:05.

Can I ask, take this opportunity to make a request to the government

:50:06.:50:11.

that as we move into territory, territory previously held by Daesh,

:50:12.:50:17.

but are at least 35 mass graves we are already discovering in those

:50:18.:50:23.

communities. The UK is a world leader in forensics technology and

:50:24.:50:27.

many groups would like to see the Foreign Office funding and

:50:28.:50:31.

encouraging those frantic experts to get on the ground where it is safe

:50:32.:50:36.

to do so and uncover and record the terrible crimes of Daesh and the

:50:37.:50:43.

Syrian regime. -- forensic experts. He is absolutely right and we pay

:50:44.:50:47.

tribute to the British capability, I have seen it in shrubbery meats and

:50:48.:50:51.

other places and it is very important to gain the intelligence

:50:52.:50:56.

to hold these people to account, that the verification process takes

:50:57.:51:02.

place. We saw it in Ramada, that can take place once the area is made

:51:03.:51:08.

safe, which is commencing as we speak -- Ramada E. He has commended

:51:09.:51:17.

himself. If there is not a cessation of violence, is there a Plan B? It

:51:18.:51:25.

is best to avoid discussions of that, we need to make this work. It

:51:26.:51:30.

has gone on too long. This is our sixth year. There is a recognition

:51:31.:51:35.

that international community is coming together for the first time

:51:36.:51:40.

round the table. We have not had a situation where Iran and Saudi

:51:41.:51:44.

Arabia have been at the table before, and United States and Russia

:51:45.:51:49.

as well. We no doubt will face a number of difficulties and

:51:50.:51:51.

complexities but that should not mean we do not try to find the

:51:52.:51:56.

solutions to the stability of Syria in the longer term.

:51:57.:52:03.

Happy St David's Day. Yesterday, Reuters reported two weeks ago in

:52:04.:52:08.

Brussels, defence ministers in the US-led coalition met to discuss

:52:09.:52:15.

ground operations against Daesh, update the House on those

:52:16.:52:21.

coalitions? Huge success has been made, it has been progressive in

:52:22.:52:28.

Iraq. We can create an indigenous capability and support and build an

:52:29.:52:32.

Iraqi force able to liberate Ramada E, the next step is the liberation

:52:33.:52:40.

of Mosul. Peshmerga is doing that and it is working well. Stopping the

:52:41.:52:44.

movement of foreign fighters and funding getting into Daesh. It is

:52:45.:52:49.

getting squeezed and the consequence we should be concerned about is as

:52:50.:52:53.

we squeeze it in Iraq and Syria, it is popping up in other parts of the

:52:54.:52:57.

world, no list Libya, and we need to be aware of that.

:52:58.:53:05.

Order. Sir Edward Leigh. You are the for most Guardian of the convention

:53:06.:53:10.

the House of Commons must come first. My honourable friend is a

:53:11.:53:13.

most charming and honourable Minister but I did as quite the

:53:14.:53:17.

Foreign Secretary was not here. I understand he is a busy man and

:53:18.:53:21.

abroad or ill, but we must establish a convention that when there is an

:53:22.:53:25.

urgent question or statements, as it deals with a small part, the

:53:26.:53:29.

Secretary of State should be here and I would hope that you would make

:53:30.:53:32.

it clear to your government departments.

:53:33.:53:38.

The position is, I must say to the honourable gentleman, that it is for

:53:39.:53:42.

the government to decide who the field. My responsibility is to

:53:43.:53:49.

adjudicate upon applications for permission to put urgent questions,

:53:50.:53:54.

and I do that every week, sometimes several times a week. I cannot

:53:55.:53:57.

require any particular Minister to attend. And it must remain for the

:53:58.:54:05.

government to make a judgment. That said, the honourable gentleman is a

:54:06.:54:08.

very senior and respected figure in this House. And he has just made a

:54:09.:54:13.

point which increasingly I have heard made recently by others. I

:54:14.:54:19.

have not made a statistical study, but there are suggestions that the

:54:20.:54:24.

frequency with which senior ministers appear in order to answer

:54:25.:54:29.

Benson -- urgent questions is declining. And it is in no sense to

:54:30.:54:35.

cast an aspersion upon the honourable gentleman who does know

:54:36.:54:39.

his brief and has assiduously attended to the matters today,

:54:40.:54:44.

simply to note that point in passing. I would hope senior

:54:45.:54:51.

ministers would want and feel a duty to answer questions from Members of

:54:52.:54:58.

Parliament. We do not have a separation of powers, as in the

:54:59.:55:04.

United States. Ministers sit in and they are answerable to this House.

:55:05.:55:13.

And not of them, frankly, should ever forget it.

:55:14.:55:17.

Point of order, Mr Tom Watson. Happy St David's Day, Mr Speaker.

:55:18.:55:21.

Yesterday, in a majestic performance at the dispatch box, Paymaster

:55:22.:55:26.

General and Cabinet Office Minister confirms to the House the Cabinet

:55:27.:55:30.

members who opposed the European referendum and will be supporting a

:55:31.:55:34.

No vote will be able to get access to government documents on the Assad

:55:35.:55:40.

referendum -- one referendum if they use the Freedom of information act.

:55:41.:55:44.

Today we see on the front page of the Daily Mail the Paymaster General

:55:45.:55:48.

will scrap the Commission looking at the Freedom of information act. Mr

:55:49.:55:52.

Speaker, have you had noticed that the Paymaster general will give a

:55:53.:55:57.

statement to the House to explain this very unusual behaviour of the

:55:58.:56:02.

government shelving their own Commission is, I am bound to say I

:56:03.:56:09.

have received most rich indication that any Minister has any such

:56:10.:56:15.

intention. -- indication. The matter is of ongoing interest. He and

:56:16.:56:24.

others who are notably terrierlike and tireless in their pursuit of

:56:25.:56:30.

their ends will require no encouragement from me to deploy such

:56:31.:56:33.

Parliamentary devices as are available to secure further

:56:34.:56:37.

attention to the matter, if that is what they want. If there are no

:56:38.:56:45.

further points of order, the House's palette has been satisfied at any

:56:46.:56:50.

rate on that front or today. Perhaps we can move to the presentation of

:56:51.:56:55.

the bill in the name of secretary Theresa May.

:56:56.:57:08.

The contention is that a minister not, I note that with some ceremony,

:57:09.:57:15.

we have received the Junot, from the Minister of State for security. My

:57:16.:57:19.

apologies for interrupting. Investigatory Powers Bill. Second

:57:20.:57:29.

Reading tomorrow, thank you. Order, ten minute rule motion, Mark

:57:30.:57:35.

Williams. I beg to move that leave be given for me to bring in a build

:57:36.:57:38.

to devolve to Welsh ministers responsibility for the termination

:57:39.:57:43.

of specified bank holidays in Wales and for connected purposes. And I'm

:57:44.:57:48.

lucky enough to be bringing this issue before the house on Saint

:57:49.:57:52.

Davids Day itself, a day in which people throughout Wales and the dire

:57:53.:57:56.

spread throughout the UK and indeed the world will be celebrating the

:57:57.:58:03.

life of Saint David and celebrating Welsh cultural identity. --

:58:04.:58:11.

diaspora. Happy Saint Davids Day to everyone. Saint David is a renowned

:58:12.:58:17.

and inspirational figure in Wales, responsible for spreading

:58:18.:58:18.

Christianity throughout much of western Britain, also the Archbishop

:58:19.:58:23.

of Wales, and a fundamental figure in the establishment of religion in

:58:24.:58:28.

our country. He also had particular links to my constituency, being a

:58:29.:58:32.

grandson of the founder of the kingdom, and his mother was born in

:58:33.:58:39.

a local village. It is also said that Saint David himself was

:58:40.:58:46.

educated at a local monastery, and it was in a village in 550 A.D., at

:58:47.:58:57.

a raucous meeting of the sin of the Welsh Church that finding it

:58:58.:58:59.

difficult to make himself heard, David placed a cloth on the ground

:59:00.:59:06.

and Earth formed to raise a mound on which he could stand and preach.

:59:07.:59:11.

This miracle put the village on the map, long before the contemporary

:59:12.:59:25.

Dafydd of Little Britain fame(!) and should be no surprise that in my

:59:26.:59:27.

constituency, the calls for Saint Davids Day becoming a national

:59:28.:59:32.

holiday are strong. Many people today will be publicly celebrating

:59:33.:59:38.

Saint Davids Day, with school pupils wearing traditional Welsh costumes,

:59:39.:59:41.

the singing of Welsh songs, the reciting poetry, people taking part

:59:42.:59:49.

in singing festivals, displaying some of the rich cultural tradition

:59:50.:59:52.

of Wales, we will see celebrations of Welsh culture in London as well,

:59:53.:59:56.

with countries from the London Welsh school, London Welsh centre, the

:59:57.:00:01.

Wales in London group doing their bit to promote Wales and the life of

:00:02.:00:06.

a saint. -- children. A few months ago, the service ended with Saint

:00:07.:00:12.

Mary undercroft, and I'm glad to see that the catering department at the

:00:13.:00:17.

House of Commons has risen to the occasion, providing wonderful Welsh

:00:18.:00:20.

cuisine, procured from Wales, which I would encourage all members to

:00:21.:00:24.

experience, it is no coincidence that I'm using this opportunity to

:00:25.:00:30.

pursue devolving power to set public policies on this very important day

:00:31.:00:35.

for Wales. Saint Davids Day and the ability of the assembly to designate

:00:36.:00:38.

public holidays has been an issue which has been raised many times

:00:39.:00:43.

over many years and by many people from across the political spectrum.

:00:44.:00:47.

I raised it in a Westminster Hall debate in 2011, it followed that by

:00:48.:00:53.

the Honourable member for Stratford-upon-Avon introduced a

:00:54.:00:55.

bill to make St George's Day and Saint Davids Day public holidays in

:00:56.:00:58.

England and Wales respectively during the same year. I want to make

:00:59.:01:03.

it clear that this bill does not ask this house to authorise or to

:01:04.:01:07.

designate Saint Davids Day a public holiday, however, as much as I hope

:01:08.:01:12.

it to become one, but in the spirit of devolution, to ensure that Aaron

:01:13.:01:17.

assembly has the power to decide on matters itself. Because despite the

:01:18.:01:23.

numerous calls to devolve this power, unfortunately it is not yet

:01:24.:01:26.

come to pass. This is in spite of the fact that responsibility for

:01:27.:01:31.

public holidays is devolve in Scotland, and Saint Patrick's Day

:01:32.:01:34.

has been a public holiday for Ireland since 1903. Saint Patrick's

:01:35.:01:41.

Day has been used to build island's profile to encourage tourism, which

:01:42.:01:43.

has provided a huge boost to their economy. Specifically the Irish

:01:44.:01:47.

government set up the same Patrick Festival group, which has aimed to

:01:48.:01:51.

make the celebration one of the finest in the world, encouraging

:01:52.:01:56.

innovation, and providing opportunity for those of Irish

:01:57.:02:00.

descent to become involved and project a positive, forward-looking

:02:01.:02:03.

image of Ireland to the rest of the world. Should the power be devolved,

:02:04.:02:05.

should the Welsh government make it should the Welsh government make it

:02:06.:02:08.

a public holiday, there is every reason to believe that our national

:02:09.:02:12.

festival can be very proactively marketed throughout the world, and a

:02:13.:02:18.

more robust way than it has been. It would provide a fantastic

:02:19.:02:19.

opportunity for a small country such as ours to make its mark, and it

:02:20.:02:25.

seems the Bosporus to me that it is not able to make this decision. Like

:02:26.:02:29.

knowledge there has been some concerns from parts of the business

:02:30.:02:32.

committee about the possible designation of Saint Davids day as a

:02:33.:02:36.

public holiday but this should not stop us from giving the

:02:37.:02:39.

responsibility to Wales, the Welsh government to consult on the issue,

:02:40.:02:43.

to come to a considered decision. We could follow the precedent of

:02:44.:02:48.

Scotland. In Scotland, for example, Saint Andrews Day was designated a

:02:49.:02:51.

public holiday in the Saint Andrew 's day bank holiday act of 2007, by

:02:52.:02:58.

the Scottish Parliament, at that time, concerns were raised about the

:02:59.:03:01.

possible negative impact that devolving power would have on

:03:02.:03:06.

businesses, and the Scottish economy, but that seemed to have

:03:07.:03:10.

been unfounded. And a strange they'd have affairs to hear for anyone to

:03:11.:03:14.

call the this to be reversed. The Scottish Government shows, after

:03:15.:03:18.

consultation, to allow banks to decide whether to close. There is

:03:19.:03:30.

growing support for businesses to recognise the holiday fully but

:03:31.:03:33.

critically, the decision was taken in Scotland. In Wales, we have

:03:34.:03:37.

similar levels of support for making a new public holiday, with a poll

:03:38.:03:40.

taken around the time of the Scottish decision showing that 87%

:03:41.:03:45.

of people in England and Wales -- in Wales wanted to see Saint Davids Day

:03:46.:03:50.

become a bank holiday, 65% of those survey stated they wanted to

:03:51.:03:54.

sacrifice another bank holiday to see Saint Davids Day officially

:03:55.:03:57.

designated. Indeed, my thanks should go to ITV Wales, in publicising this

:03:58.:04:02.

bill today, they have undertaken an online poll. As of ten o'clock this

:04:03.:04:08.

morning, over 90% of respondents agreed with Saint Davids Day being a

:04:09.:04:13.

bank holiday. This support is also seen in also parts -- all part of

:04:14.:04:21.

the National Assembly. They provided evidence to the silk commission,

:04:22.:04:24.

asking for power to be given to the Senate. From the very beginning of

:04:25.:04:28.

the life of the National Assembly, growing public opinion has been

:04:29.:04:32.

reunited in its call for Saint Davids Day to become a public

:04:33.:04:37.

holiday. In 2011, it looked as though the UK Government, after

:04:38.:04:41.

pressure from the Liberal Democrats, might finally consider giving the

:04:42.:04:47.

Welsh assembly power to move the Spring bank holiday from made the

:04:48.:04:53.

first, to March the 1st, as part of the UK Government's tourism

:04:54.:04:58.

strategy, nothing came of that, despite great political support.

:04:59.:05:07.

There were calls for the power to be revolved, but then they were

:05:08.:05:10.

rebuffed by the Secretary of State Wales. These calls are continued to

:05:11.:05:19.

fall on deaf ears, with successive UK governments refusing to devolve

:05:20.:05:24.

power to Wales, it seems unlikely that if this power continues to be

:05:25.:05:30.

preserved by Westminster, that we would see Saint Davids Day become a

:05:31.:05:34.

public holiday any time soon, despite huge support. Is it not now

:05:35.:05:37.

time that the Welsh people were able to decide whether it is right that

:05:38.:05:42.

Saint Davids Day came a public holiday in Wales, rather than it

:05:43.:05:46.

being decided and rejected in Whitehall? In the UK, and in Wales,

:05:47.:05:51.

with only eight public college days, we have among the fewest of any

:05:52.:05:54.

country in the world. Wales should have the choice to decide whether it

:05:55.:05:59.

creates a new public holiday, or whether it replaces another. That I

:06:00.:06:03.

believe is the decision that the people of Wales should make through

:06:04.:06:09.

our own Parliament. Let me finish by repeating the words of Saint David

:06:10.:06:12.

when he said, do the little things you have seen me do and heard about,

:06:13.:06:17.

I will walk the path that our fathers have trodden before us. Do

:06:18.:06:23.

the little things. It has become daily well-known phrase in Wales. It

:06:24.:06:30.

is all that many of us in Wales are asking, we are asking for Wales to

:06:31.:06:34.

be given the power that others already have, for Wales to be able

:06:35.:06:38.

to choose whether and how we make Saint Davids Day a public holiday,

:06:39.:06:42.

to be able to celebrate his life, and celebrate his Welsh national

:06:43.:06:48.

identity, how we choose. With this bill, we can do those little things

:06:49.:06:55.

that would have a very big impact on Wales, I urge the house to support

:06:56.:07:04.

this call. The question is that the honourable member have leave to

:07:05.:07:13.

bring in the bill, I think the ayes habit. Who will prepare and bring in

:07:14.:07:24.

the bill? Jonathan Edwards, Albert Owen, John Pugh, Carolyn Harris, and

:07:25.:07:25.

myself, among others. Devolution bank holidays Wales Bill.

:07:26.:08:01.

Seconded on what day? Friday, March 11. We come now to a motion on

:08:02.:08:09.

supplementary estimate, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the whip to

:08:10.:08:14.

move formally. The question is, as on the order paper. It is a pleasure

:08:15.:08:22.

to open the first debate in the new parliament, and I thank the liaison

:08:23.:08:27.

committee for selecting from the Foreign Affairs Committee for debate

:08:28.:08:31.

today. Let me at this point pay tribute to the work of the committee

:08:32.:08:34.

and the last Parliament, and of course, to my predator said, Sir

:08:35.:08:39.

Richard Ottaway. I was lucky enough to have him as a Parliamentary

:08:40.:08:44.

Labour for 18 years, and with that experience, I can well understand

:08:45.:08:50.

why he was so widely regarded. -- Parliamentary neighbour. Across the

:08:51.:08:53.

whole of the Foreign Office establishment, and all of those

:08:54.:08:56.

interested in foreign and Commonwealth affairs, or the way

:08:57.:08:59.

that he led the committee, in the last Parliament. One of their last

:09:00.:09:05.

reports, published in February, 2015, only weeks before parliament

:09:06.:09:09.

was resolved, took a detailed look at the impact of cuts on the Foreign

:09:10.:09:12.

Office budget, resulting from the 2010 spending review. It excepted

:09:13.:09:16.

that the Foreign Office needed to play its part, in the general

:09:17.:09:20.

retrenchment instituted by the review and it believe that Foreign

:09:21.:09:23.

Office ministers and senior management had on a whole fate a

:09:24.:09:29.

difficult and skilfully. It concluded, and I quote, the cuts

:09:30.:09:32.

imposed on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office since 2010 have

:09:33.:09:36.

been severe, and have gone beyond just trimming fat. Capacity now

:09:37.:09:43.

appears to be being damaged. Next government needs to protect future

:09:44.:09:45.

FCO budgets under the next spending review. The committee continued, if

:09:46.:09:52.

further cuts are imposed, the UK's do dramatic in print and influence

:09:53.:09:56.

will probably reduce, and the government will need to roll back

:09:57.:09:59.

some of its foreign policy objectives. And I remind the house

:10:00.:10:03.

that the reduction imposed on the Foreign Office in the four year

:10:04.:10:08.

period ending in March, 2015, amounted to 24% of its resource

:10:09.:10:12.

budget. However, the majority of the savings came from what amounted to a

:10:13.:10:16.

tangerine trick, funding for the BBC World Service, transferred from the

:10:17.:10:21.

Foreign Office to the licence fee payer, to the 1st of April, 2014.

:10:22.:10:27.

The apparent budget was reduced by 240 million, and the cuts which they

:10:28.:10:30.

had to make to its own budget savings amounted to just 10%. Even

:10:31.:10:36.

though the real reduction was just 10% over the fall is, it is hard to

:10:37.:10:41.

find anyone who does not believe that the FCO's capacity was damaged

:10:42.:10:45.

in the process. Our predecessors described the Foreign Office as a

:10:46.:10:50.

machine stretched to the limits. The posts left unfilled with the staff

:10:51.:10:54.

of the necessary calibre worth needed for more immediate crisis. --

:10:55.:10:59.

FCOs. Overseas posts at junior level lost, reducing the opportunity for

:11:00.:11:03.

staff to accumulate the sort of experience essential for service at

:11:04.:11:06.

higher levels within the organisation. And reductions in

:11:07.:11:10.

UK-based staff at many overseas posts, denied those that remain time

:11:11.:11:15.

to leave the diplomatic rubble to gather a sense of real currents in

:11:16.:11:20.

society around the country in which to serve. -- diplomatic bubble.

:11:21.:11:26.

Overall, the headcount was reduced by 10%, between 2011 and now. That

:11:27.:11:30.

seems perverse at a time when the Department was under such policy

:11:31.:11:34.

pressure and suffering such overstretch.

:11:35.:11:41.

This was mitigated by recruitment of locally engaged staff which brought

:11:42.:11:48.

local knowledge, difficult for a London-based employee to acquire.

:11:49.:11:53.

But much of the time, those people happen to be English people based

:11:54.:12:01.

overseas and become a formally locally engaged member of staff.

:12:02.:12:06.

While the average costs are apparently one third of somebody

:12:07.:12:13.

UK-based, that is not the strait staving because it does not come at

:12:14.:12:19.

zero cost. I have heard troubling reports of arming tended

:12:20.:12:25.

consequences from the fact that locally engaged staff are not

:12:26.:12:31.

cleared to the same security level -- alarming consequences. And in

:12:32.:12:37.

advance of the visit to Cairo and juniors next week, I applaud the

:12:38.:12:43.

swift response to the terrorist attack in June 2015 -- Tunis. I have

:12:44.:12:47.

heard the subsequent anti-terrorism and narratives that analysis was

:12:48.:12:55.

complicated either lack of staff cleared to the level necessary. It

:12:56.:12:58.

would have played a role in the offices decision to advise against

:12:59.:13:05.

all but essential travel, and tourism contributes directly and

:13:06.:13:08.

indirectly to a large proportion of GDP and is a major source of foreign

:13:09.:13:17.

currency. Tunisia is a volatile country and we all have an interest

:13:18.:13:20.

in nurturing the continued stability.

:13:21.:13:27.

He's making a very compelling case for investing in our diplomatic

:13:28.:13:32.

services. Does he not share my concern that it is not just the lack

:13:33.:13:39.

of spread across the world and the standing that the United Kingdom

:13:40.:13:43.

global league has, that these cuts are impacting on, but it is about

:13:44.:13:49.

the expertise and the analytical capabilities of the diplomatic

:13:50.:13:53.

service to feedback information to the United Kingdom. He is absolutely

:13:54.:14:02.

right. The point I have already made... I will make it further about

:14:03.:14:11.

for example in the enquiries into Libya, how deep was our knowledge?

:14:12.:14:16.

On the basis of which we made that intervention decision. It is that

:14:17.:14:19.

depth of knowledge that has been lost. There is another price being

:14:20.:14:23.

paid for having locally engaged staff, they do not understand the UK

:14:24.:14:28.

context. It has been put to me by previous ministers that the quality

:14:29.:14:34.

of reports coming through are not quite what we were because they are

:14:35.:14:41.

not addressing the needs of the ministers to whom they are aimed.

:14:42.:14:45.

And the difficulty is you have overstretched UK-based staff in that

:14:46.:14:51.

post having to oversee in addition the work of those locally engaged

:14:52.:14:59.

employees. But back to the issue of Tunisia. I accept that the security

:15:00.:15:04.

of citizens must be a government priority and it cannot commend

:15:05.:15:09.

travel unless it has confidence citizens will be reasonably safe.

:15:10.:15:14.

These decisions, this decision about Tunisia was of such serious

:15:15.:15:18.

consequence for its stability and the security of the region that we

:15:19.:15:23.

must be completely confident we can make informed decisions and not

:15:24.:15:26.

decision is to simply defensive in the absence of that capability.

:15:27.:15:33.

Reports are of course the standard mechanism by which committees

:15:34.:15:39.

express our views. And it is my belief committees can miss

:15:40.:15:43.

opportunities by not getting inside the decision-making cycle and

:15:44.:15:47.

devoting our energies to conducting retrospective analysis after policy

:15:48.:15:52.

has been formed and executed. And the government should welcome input

:15:53.:15:57.

at an early stage for an informed cross-party committee that could

:15:58.:16:01.

make practical, forward-looking suggestions, rather than just

:16:02.:16:03.

telling the government where it went wrong. And we published our report

:16:04.:16:10.

on the budget in October last year, almost exactly a month before the

:16:11.:16:13.

Spending Review, and we made just one recommendation. We recommend

:16:14.:16:18.

that the Treasury protects the budget for the period covered by the

:16:19.:16:23.

2015 Spending Review, with a view to increasing rather than cutting the

:16:24.:16:27.

funds available to support the diplomatic work on which the

:16:28.:16:30.

country's security and prosperity depend. I am the latest our

:16:31.:16:37.

recommendations in this report were accepted and the settlement

:16:38.:16:39.

reflected our Central recommendation. We spent much of our

:16:40.:16:45.

first evidence sessions looking at how the Foreign Office was preparing

:16:46.:16:48.

for the Spending Review and what scope there was to absorb further

:16:49.:16:53.

cuts of the scale already imposed over the previous four years.

:16:54.:16:58.

Foreign Secretary gave evidence twice and we tried to get a sense of

:16:59.:17:02.

his priorities and what he would preserve and we took evidence from

:17:03.:17:06.

some assignment McDonald, the new permanent undersecretary, and his

:17:07.:17:10.

senior management team, to understand the detail of what might

:17:11.:17:17.

be achieved. And how if savings of 25% or 40% were required, that

:17:18.:17:23.

gloomy environment reflected perhaps our defensive recommendation which

:17:24.:17:27.

was obviously designed to hold the current position, but it was

:17:28.:17:34.

the belief of the committee that more Reza also is -- resources are

:17:35.:17:42.

needed to support diplomacy. As a member of the previous

:17:43.:17:45.

committee, can I suggest my honourable friend that trying to

:17:46.:17:49.

make unnecessary savings can prove to be of false economy in the longer

:17:50.:17:55.

term because we do not invest in expertise and analytical skills and

:17:56.:18:00.

you can end up making errors that can cost a lot more than if you had

:18:01.:18:05.

a proper view of things in the first place. The extreme example in

:18:06.:18:11.

avoiding conflict, it is much cheaper than actual conflict itself.

:18:12.:18:17.

My honourable friend next a valid point and he, working on the

:18:18.:18:20.

committee in the last Parliament and in this, we'll know that our

:18:21.:18:29.

expertise in Russia for example when he and I were soldiers in the

:18:30.:18:33.

1980s... I was a wealth of expertise about the Soviet Union that simply

:18:34.:18:39.

stripped away so faced with a crisis around the Crimea and the Ukraine,

:18:40.:18:46.

the level and depth of knowledge was certainly a handicap. But about

:18:47.:18:54.

looking forward for committee reports and how we might influence

:18:55.:19:00.

forward in fence, one area where I hope we will be able to report with

:19:01.:19:03.

authority and fulfil a much requested needed by the public is in

:19:04.:19:10.

respect of Brexit. The committee is conducting an enquiry into the costs

:19:11.:19:15.

and benefits of European Union membership for Britain's role in the

:19:16.:19:19.

world, whether we stay or whether we leave. And honourable members and

:19:20.:19:26.

right honourable members will have found people asking where they can

:19:27.:19:29.

turn to for Independent analysis, who will give people the facts? And

:19:30.:19:36.

unhappily, the government has placed itself in a position where it is not

:19:37.:19:41.

able to give an Independent view as the institution is placed firmly on

:19:42.:19:46.

one side of the campaign. Happily, I preside over a committee of 11 and

:19:47.:19:51.

the publicly expressed view of my committee is balanced at 5-5 on

:19:52.:19:57.

either side of the question. If he is seeking a cure for insomnia, may

:19:58.:20:03.

I refer him to my speech on Friday on the subject? I spoke for one

:20:04.:20:08.

hour. And to my honourable friend for Christchurch's bill to set up an

:20:09.:20:13.

Independent audit on the pros and cons of leaving the EU. We accused

:20:14.:20:19.

the Labour government of fiddling figures before the budget, why not

:20:20.:20:27.

have a body give a genuine order? He will be delighted to yet this is

:20:28.:20:30.

precisely what my committee is going to try to do. But given the way we

:20:31.:20:36.

are exquisitely balanced, it is my aim, disc -- supported in discussion

:20:37.:20:43.

with members of the committee who cannot be formally bound until the

:20:44.:20:47.

committee reports, but I think we all share the objective to produce

:20:48.:20:51.

is balanced a piece of work as possible, identifying factors the

:20:52.:20:57.

electorate should committee on both sides of the question. Without

:20:58.:20:59.

advising the electorate what weight to attack to those factors. I hope

:21:00.:21:05.

to complete this work two months before the referendum and for the

:21:06.:21:13.

committee to do that service to the public as well as to this House and

:21:14.:21:17.

the reputation of its committees. I am happy to give way. On the

:21:18.:21:23.

question of service to the public, would he agree with me that the

:21:24.:21:27.

public is very keen his committee and others re-establish the

:21:28.:21:32.

Committee on Arms Export Controls, could he explain why this has not

:21:33.:21:37.

happened yet? It has and I have already attended the first meeting.

:21:38.:21:42.

It has been well cared by the honourable member and I am now going

:21:43.:21:48.

to forget his constituency! -- Chad. I have every confidence in the new

:21:49.:21:55.

chairman of the committee, and when I recall his constituency, I will

:21:56.:21:57.

alert the House! And will give way. I will intervene

:21:58.:22:06.

in a separate way. Can I pay to be to his chairmanship of the

:22:07.:22:09.

committee? In the sense that he is absolutely correct that we split

:22:10.:22:15.

5-5. To whether or not we want the United Kingdom to pull out or remain

:22:16.:22:21.

in the European Union. And he is absolutely right to ensure that the

:22:22.:22:28.

report is balanced and that we do not come out either way. What a lot

:22:29.:22:33.

of my constituents want this more information and impartial

:22:34.:22:36.

information to be able to make their own critical assessment in this

:22:37.:22:38.

matter. I am grateful and I recall it is my

:22:39.:22:44.

honourable friend for Warwick and Leamington who served on the

:22:45.:22:53.

previous arms export committee under Sir John Stanley. And he is taking

:22:54.:22:59.

up that role and will do it extremely well. My honourable friend

:23:00.:23:03.

is absolutely right on the substance of the point. And honourable members

:23:04.:23:12.

in this House will know that if I can chair a committee which produces

:23:13.:23:15.

a unanimous report with the honourable member for Ilford North

:23:16.:23:21.

and Billericay agreeing a report on the factors around or European Union

:23:22.:23:28.

membership, we will have done a service producing an analysis of

:23:29.:23:31.

which everybody can have confidence in. I give way.

:23:32.:23:39.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The chairman of the Foreign Affairs

:23:40.:23:42.

Select Committee raises an important point and I will forward to working

:23:43.:23:47.

with him to try to bring a five on either side together to produce that

:23:48.:23:52.

report. Does he agree one primary goal is to ensure people in this

:23:53.:23:56.

House and beyond this House will be as well informed as they possibly

:23:57.:24:00.

can be about this European Union referendum ahead of the 23rd of

:24:01.:24:06.

June? I absolutely agree. And the motivation of the Scottish National

:24:07.:24:09.

Party as to what they will do at the ballot box, given their differing

:24:10.:24:13.

attitudes to the different unions in which Scotland finds itself, that is

:24:14.:24:20.

something we can look forward to with interest. Anyone attending this

:24:21.:24:28.

debate might well ask that if the Foreign Office was a winner of the

:24:29.:24:31.

Spending Review or at least not a loser, why did we see this debate

:24:32.:24:38.

today? My reply is that nobody should underestimate the scale of

:24:39.:24:41.

the challenges the United Kingdom and its allies are facing in the

:24:42.:24:46.

world today. And even with a protected budget, the Foreign Office

:24:47.:24:50.

is going to struggle to address those challenges. Of course we have

:24:51.:24:54.

a range of capabilities to deal with direct threats to national-security,

:24:55.:24:58.

Armed Forces diplomacy, economic policy, cyber operations and covert

:24:59.:25:02.

means. But in terms of sheer value for money, diplomacy and the

:25:03.:25:08.

capacity to bring crises to babies for resolution in partnership with

:25:09.:25:14.

us must be the preferred solution -- crisis to a resolution. A diplomatic

:25:15.:25:19.

solution rather than one that descends into the use of armed force

:25:20.:25:25.

which saves a fortune as well as a huge humanitarian cost we can see

:25:26.:25:30.

that accompanies a failure of preserving the peace. And it is my

:25:31.:25:33.

view that we should be increasing the Foreign Office budget when hands

:25:34.:25:40.

that capacity. And to help head off these crisis before they flare-up.

:25:41.:25:45.

The threat to the United Kingdom security and its well-being are at

:25:46.:25:50.

an unprecedented level and as we said in our report, we cannot recall

:25:51.:25:55.

a more complex and challenging policy-making environment in recent

:25:56.:25:59.

decades. An environment that includes Syria, Daesh, Libya,

:26:00.:26:05.

Russia, the South China Sea, Israel, Palestine, North Korea, Israel and

:26:06.:26:12.

Turkey the name if you, and that is before the requirements of the other

:26:13.:26:16.

two pillars of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office agenda for

:26:17.:26:19.

responsibility and consular services. In its response, the

:26:20.:26:24.

office acknowledges there will be new work including increasing

:26:25.:26:27.

spending on the overseas territories and hosting the presidency of the

:26:28.:26:32.

European Union in 2017. That may be an interesting presidency if we are

:26:33.:26:38.

on the way out after the 23rd of June. But inexplicably, and on that

:26:39.:26:43.

issue, the response says nothing about potentially the greatest call

:26:44.:26:50.

on our resources, a British excerpt from the European Union. In the

:26:51.:26:53.

country boats out on the 23rd of June, a huge effort would mean

:26:54.:26:57.

needed to disentangle the United Kingdom from its existing

:26:58.:27:01.

commitments and to work on new trade arrangements.

:27:02.:27:09.

A very large part of that effort will fall on the Foreign Office yet

:27:10.:27:15.

the committee has found little or no evidence that the British civil

:27:16.:27:18.

service is making any contingency plans in the event of a British

:27:19.:27:24.

exit. We have a date for a referendum and exit is not a remote

:27:25.:27:28.

possibility, it's a very real prospect in the hands of the

:27:29.:27:32.

electorate and the competing campaigns and so I urge ministers

:27:33.:27:36.

and officials to begin planning not just an outline for the consequence

:27:37.:27:42.

of British people voting to leave. It's not a question of drafting in

:27:43.:27:46.

extra people to prepare new treaties, we will need to strengthen

:27:47.:27:52.

our lateral relationships, reopening subordinate posts which have been

:27:53.:27:58.

closed or downgraded over the last 5 years, and open up areas around

:27:59.:28:06.

trade that are now within the competence of the European Union and

:28:07.:28:08.

we should understand what the bill is going to be and prepare to

:28:09.:28:14.

address it if it happens. Turning to... I will give way. I thank the

:28:15.:28:24.

honourable gentleman. On the point of increasing the number of

:28:25.:28:28.

personnel who may be with the issue of exit, the foreign affairs select

:28:29.:28:34.

committee recently said that about a quarter of staff in the Middle East

:28:35.:28:39.

in Eastern Europe and Central Asia do not have the requisite language

:28:40.:28:43.

skills and that the number of people who have language skills is going

:28:44.:28:47.

down, that's another way that the Foreign Office strength has been

:28:48.:28:52.

reduced in being able to tackle international issues. The honourable

:28:53.:28:57.

lady is absolutely right and she understands these issues extremely

:28:58.:29:01.

well from her work on the committee and more widely before joining the

:29:02.:29:06.

committee. This loss of language skills is partly a reflection of

:29:07.:29:12.

just how stretched the office is in getting people into the right place

:29:13.:29:18.

to get the best people to cover the vacancies from all of these policy

:29:19.:29:23.

challenges we face. An office that is not stretched so tautly has the

:29:24.:29:29.

capacity to get the language skills of its staff up to the necessary

:29:30.:29:35.

standard, that, until now, have been the envy of every other diplomatic

:29:36.:29:39.

service in the world. And I know in the last parliament and was the

:29:40.:29:46.

priority of William Hague as Foreign Secretary to address this and

:29:47.:29:51.

measures were put in place, serious measures, to try and address this

:29:52.:29:55.

but the evidence we are taking is that if it is getting better, it's

:29:56.:29:59.

getting better in a minute way that does not reflect the actual need to

:30:00.:30:04.

get real improvement in this area, that reflects just how tautly the

:30:05.:30:07.

officers being managed under the current budget conditions. Turning

:30:08.:30:12.

to the capital budget there will be more pressure on that than usual and

:30:13.:30:17.

the government's response to a report points out that the Foreign

:30:18.:30:22.

Office capital budget will remain flat. It says the FCO will need to

:30:23.:30:26.

fund requirements which can be met from the capital budget I'd is

:30:27.:30:30.

posing of assets and at warns it may need to call them the Treasury

:30:31.:30:34.

reserve for large projects. The Foreign Office is rightly expecting

:30:35.:30:38.

to achieve value for money when disposing of assets but the ability

:30:39.:30:42.

to do so depends on market forces and as we know from the FCO

:30:43.:30:47.

supplementary estimate, the FCO has already had to call them the

:30:48.:30:50.

Treasury reserve to cover a shortfall which it says is due to

:30:51.:30:53.

adverse market conditions in the Far East. The FCO IT system is failing

:30:54.:31:01.

and presents a serious operational risk, major investment is needed but

:31:02.:31:05.

that has been stalled during the Spending Review process and the FCO

:31:06.:31:09.

will have to fund its tech overhaul programme from its existing

:31:10.:31:13.

programme. Difficult choices will have to be made on procurement

:31:14.:31:16.

bearing in mind the need for resilience under particular security

:31:17.:31:20.

requirements of the Department. Her full project management will be

:31:21.:31:23.

needed and I can only point out that the whole of the public service

:31:24.:31:28.

doesn't exactly have a shining record in this field. And I hope the

:31:29.:31:31.

Foreign Office can help redress that. The 2nd key point concerns ODA

:31:32.:31:39.

expenditure and the need to rationalise resource allocation. We

:31:40.:31:46.

highlight in the report our knees at the consequences of depending

:31:47.:31:51.

evermore on expenditure which qualifies as official development

:31:52.:31:53.

assistance and which therefore scores against the government

:31:54.:31:57.

commitment to invest at least 0 points 7% of gross national income

:31:58.:32:01.

in international development and that risks and is skewing the

:32:02.:32:05.

department expenditure way from countries not eligible for ODA

:32:06.:32:11.

spending regardless of where our foreign policy interests lie. For

:32:12.:32:15.

instance, 97% of the funds available under the new human rights funding

:32:16.:32:20.

programme, the Magna Carta fund, or for spending in ODA eligible

:32:21.:32:24.

countries and can be queried this in oral evidence with the Minister and

:32:25.:32:28.

officials were given the impression there was some flexibility to divert

:32:29.:32:31.

funding towards non- ODA countries but I think we need some clear

:32:32.:32:38.

answers. Trying to replace the significant sums the government puts

:32:39.:32:41.

forward for human rights and the Magna Carta fund was very

:32:42.:32:44.

constrained by lateral funds, I don't think is going to wash. It

:32:45.:32:52.

would be quite unacceptable and that for programme funding around human

:32:53.:32:56.

rights to be virtually denied in non- ODA eligible countries like

:32:57.:33:00.

Russia, it is real, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states and back-up

:33:01.:33:03.

minister can give me some reinsurance on this point. Human

:33:04.:33:08.

rights expenditure is not the only example of how ODA eligibility can

:33:09.:33:12.

determine for an Foreign Office activity. The chief operating

:33:13.:33:19.

officer said the non- ODA budget was under pressure and the workup acts

:33:20.:33:22.

of the overseas network they would have to look 1st at cup backs

:33:23.:33:25.

insubordinate posts in developed countries. -- cutbacks. But doesn't

:33:26.:33:33.

play well with the prosperity agenda if that's where we need to go in

:33:34.:33:36.

terms of trade and economic relations. The British Council which

:33:37.:33:40.

plays a unique role in promoting an understanding by different peoples

:33:41.:33:43.

and nations for the UK can offer faces the possibility of losing all

:33:44.:33:47.

grant aid for working countries which are not ODA eligible. It is

:33:48.:33:53.

looking to cross subsidise to some extent from other areas of its

:33:54.:33:57.

operation but the net effect is a decline of our soft power and

:33:58.:34:00.

influence in several growing economies and countries, not least

:34:01.:34:05.

where there are political and human rights concerns. I have similar

:34:06.:34:09.

concerns about the move within government to more pull funding

:34:10.:34:13.

between departments, the conflict stability and security fund

:34:14.:34:18.

currently worth 0 point to 3,000,000,000 a year will increase

:34:19.:34:23.

to over a billion a year by 2020 and a new prosperity fund worth over a

:34:24.:34:29.

billion. Substantial funds allocated following the process of negotiation

:34:30.:34:34.

between departments and I absolutely welcome the concept of a more

:34:35.:34:37.

holistic and integrated approach to funding for departments are working

:34:38.:34:40.

in different ways towards the same ultimate aim. But the committee

:34:41.:34:46.

should look carefully at how the FCO Ferris especially when sharing the

:34:47.:34:49.

conflict stability fund was departments whose budgets as I'm

:34:50.:34:58.

total funding are protected. Finally, the Foreign Office delayed

:34:59.:35:00.

its response to our report until after it received a settlement

:35:01.:35:05.

letter from the Treasury but I was disappointed the Foreign Office

:35:06.:35:08.

didn't supply the settlement letter which I understand sets out in more

:35:09.:35:12.

detail about the sums available to the Foreign Office from year to year

:35:13.:35:15.

within the period covered by the Spending Review. In fact, none of

:35:16.:35:19.

the departmental settlement letters have been published and at the

:35:20.:35:23.

moment we just have rounded figures for budgets for 201516 to 201920

:35:24.:35:29.

without any lower-level detail. Could the Minister undertake to

:35:30.:35:33.

supply the Foreign Office settlement letter to the committee so we may

:35:34.:35:38.

publish it and place this essential information the public domain? My

:35:39.:35:43.

conclusion is about the shape of the Foreign Office the years to come.

:35:44.:35:46.

The Foreign Office said in the letter was bonding to the report

:35:47.:35:51.

that there is more that can be done to strengthen the FCO and build its

:35:52.:35:55.

world-class capabilities, to help achieve this I have commissioned an

:35:56.:35:59.

internal review at the FCO exploring how we can be expert, agile and

:36:00.:36:03.

focused on key priorities, the review will set out a vision of the

:36:04.:36:09.

organisation the FCO should be by 2020 and I invite the Minister to

:36:10.:36:12.

tell us a little more about this review, will it be a fundamental

:36:13.:36:17.

review of how the officer structured, our priorities are

:36:18.:36:19.

ordered and staff deployed, or will it be a motherhood and apple pie

:36:20.:36:25.

statement of visions and aims which no 1 could disagree with? In

:36:26.:36:31.

conclusion Madam Deputy Speaker, the office remains overstretched and

:36:32.:36:35.

underfunded but the task that faces, its actual funding base is

:36:36.:36:39.

dysfunctional and if it does not actually distort policy decisions,

:36:40.:36:43.

it certainly means re- source allocation is no longer aligned with

:36:44.:36:51.

actual British interests. Pete Wishart. Thank you. Madam Deputy

:36:52.:36:58.

Speaker, I noticed something unusual, very different and possibly

:36:59.:37:04.

quite subversive in the speech and in 1 of the days set aside for the

:37:05.:37:11.

consideration of the estimates, I am going to actually speak about

:37:12.:37:16.

estimates. Of all the things I did when I was research searching this,

:37:17.:37:21.

the 1 thing I was told I must not do was to raise the issue of estimates

:37:22.:37:29.

during Esther McVey debates. What other house in this world would have

:37:30.:37:33.

something as absurd as that. -- estimate Dave. What other modern

:37:34.:37:40.

parliament would even start to consider doing its business on the

:37:41.:37:45.

basis of such an absurd and ridiculous ruling. Madam Deputy

:37:46.:37:51.

Speaker, the estimates isn't about the allocation of pencils and rulers

:37:52.:37:54.

to the civil service or perhaps the price of beer, the estimate process

:37:55.:38:01.

is offering this House has to give itself or take to the government

:38:02.:38:05.

spending plan. This is what we are doing in the 3 days according to the

:38:06.:38:11.

standing order of the House, standing order 54, that we have been

:38:12.:38:18.

given to debate this. And this... And this... But is the 1 thing that

:38:19.:38:28.

we are not supposed to debate. It's absolutely and utterly absurd and

:38:29.:38:36.

bizarre and it has to change. This cannot go on. Something as important

:38:37.:38:40.

as this has to be considered and how did we get here? 2 centuries ago

:38:41.:38:45.

this has debated and considered every single estimate in the House,

:38:46.:38:48.

every piece of departmental spent was debated to the nth degree and

:38:49.:38:55.

voted on. Now we do absolutely nothing. This House is just simply

:38:56.:39:02.

abrogated its responsibility, looking at departmental spending and

:39:03.:39:04.

that simply aren't utterly unsustainable. Could the honourable

:39:05.:39:10.

gentleman just mention the Foreign and Commonwealth Office expenditure

:39:11.:39:14.

or estimates, just before he carries on and try and fit his more general

:39:15.:39:18.

point about estimates into the specific estimate we are debating at

:39:19.:39:23.

the moment? Pete Wishart. Madam Deputy Speaker... I struggle to

:39:24.:39:29.

think when we talk about estimates that the Foreign Office budget would

:39:30.:39:33.

fit into what we are debating considering the day is set aside the

:39:34.:39:36.

consideration of the estimates and we have to debate is, we are

:39:37.:39:42.

abrogating our responsibility as parliamentarians if we fail to have

:39:43.:39:46.

some sort of say and discussion and debate about how this has doesn't

:39:47.:39:51.

business. Point of order... Edward Leigh. Point of order... I did

:39:52.:39:59.

report of the Chancellor on this. It's quite true, the honourable

:40:00.:40:03.

gentleman is doing a great service to the House, the fact is that we

:40:04.:40:08.

spend ?600,000,000,000 of people's money every year but the 1 thing we

:40:09.:40:11.

are not allowed top about an estimate stake is estimates of the

:40:12.:40:14.

honourable member for Perth and North Purser makes a fundamentally

:40:15.:40:18.

important point and then my honourable friend the Member for

:40:19.:40:22.

Southport tried to talk about estimates an estimate stake couple

:40:23.:40:25.

of years ago, unbelievably he was ruled out of order. You have the

:40:26.:40:30.

power, Madam Deputy Speaker to say on estimates day we are allowed to

:40:31.:40:33.

talk about estimates and you can give him authority to carry on

:40:34.:40:37.

giving his speech. I thank the honourable gentleman for that wider

:40:38.:40:40.

border but we are debating a specific motion on the order paper

:40:41.:40:43.

which is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office estimates and

:40:44.:40:47.

the honourable gentleman has been a parliamentarian for a long time and

:40:48.:40:50.

understands how this works in Mayfield this is an injustice and

:40:51.:40:55.

are the places this can be debated today, this is specifically about a

:40:56.:40:59.

very important estimate that as the expenditure of the Foreign and

:41:00.:41:02.

Commonwealth Office. What I want to say is that there are plenty of ways

:41:03.:41:05.

in which the honourable gentleman can debate estimates more generally

:41:06.:41:10.

within the framework of this but he must stick to what is on the order

:41:11.:41:16.

paper. It is a motion and it is very specific about the FCO expenditure

:41:17.:41:20.

and if you can do that he will not be ruled out of order, if he

:41:21.:41:23.

doesn't, I'm afraid he will. Pete Wishart.

:41:24.:41:30.

I will make the attempt to stay in order. According to a standing order

:41:31.:41:36.

three days of each Parliamentary session is to be allocated for the

:41:37.:41:44.

provision of estimates. I attempting to uphold that order in the House.

:41:45.:41:51.

Why can I not debate the estimates on one of the days that is set aside

:41:52.:41:58.

for estimates? This is not a debate generally on estimates either in

:41:59.:42:03.

particular or any specific one. This is a particular estimate on the FCO

:42:04.:42:08.

expenditure, therefore that is what we are debating here today. He also

:42:09.:42:11.

knows the procedure committee is the place to go to to answer these more

:42:12.:42:17.

specific questions. There are other ways of having debates on the

:42:18.:42:23.

principle of estimates debates, but today we have got on the order paper

:42:24.:42:28.

specifically the FCO estimate which is what we are here to debate today.

:42:29.:42:36.

Pete Wishart. Can I ask you, if I wanted to question the government on

:42:37.:42:42.

?600 billion worth of expenditure, and under the Barnett formula it

:42:43.:42:45.

affects what we spent in Scotland, how can I start about giving a

:42:46.:42:49.

speech on all the money we are spending? The honourable gentleman

:42:50.:42:57.

has been here a long time. There are Treasury question, budget Day,

:42:58.:43:01.

Parliamentary questions, letters to ministers, adjournment debates, any

:43:02.:43:04.

number of avenues in which to get these things debated. Today we are

:43:05.:43:10.

debating Foreign and Commonwealth Office expenditure on this

:43:11.:43:13.

particular estimate day and with that, that is enough. If he wants me

:43:14.:43:20.

to rule him out of order, I can do. If he can stick to the FCO

:43:21.:43:25.

expenditure, he will not be out of order. I would like to make more

:43:26.:43:32.

progress. The honourable gentleman for Gainsborough is utterly right.

:43:33.:43:37.

This house has to be given the opportunity to debate this. It is

:43:38.:43:42.

increasingly important. If we cannot do it on a day set aside for

:43:43.:43:44.

estimates, we have to determine when. You can rummy out of order if

:43:45.:43:54.

you want. This is important for the SNP because we have been invited by

:43:55.:43:58.

the government from the Leader of the House to investigate, debate and

:43:59.:44:05.

look at the estimates process to determine the issues for Barnett

:44:06.:44:10.

consequential which you... Order, I think that is enough. Order. I think

:44:11.:44:17.

we have had a debate now. The honourable gentleman has had a

:44:18.:44:21.

debate on the floor of the House about estimates in general. But we

:44:22.:44:25.

are looking at a very important particular assessment, and that is

:44:26.:44:29.

on foreign and Commonwealth of expenditure. If the gentleman can

:44:30.:44:34.

keep his debating points to that matter, I will allow them to

:44:35.:44:39.

continue. It is a particular estimate day. It is not estimates

:44:40.:44:45.

day. It is a particular date on which we are debating FCO estimates.

:44:46.:44:50.

If you would like to continue, I will allow him to do so, otherwise I

:44:51.:44:57.

will call the next speaker. There is an old army adage that says time is

:44:58.:45:00.

spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted. I suggest it could serve

:45:01.:45:12.

this government while going forward when it comes to expenditure on the

:45:13.:45:21.

FCO office. Because cuts to this office, but by previous governments

:45:22.:45:25.

on both sides, and staff shortages, have led to a series of errors and

:45:26.:45:32.

contributed to those errors that has cost us dear. On the one hand I very

:45:33.:45:37.

much congratulate the government on actually protecting the budget in

:45:38.:45:40.

real terms, that is a backstop on which we have not had hitherto, and

:45:41.:45:47.

which is to be welcomed, but at the same time I would urge the

:45:48.:45:51.

government, as my honourable friend has already pointed out, to look to

:45:52.:45:57.

increase the actual budget in real terms. If the government seriously

:45:58.:46:02.

thinks that cost savings in this area work, I would suggest that all

:46:03.:46:06.

the evidence suggests this is a false economy in deed. It is a false

:46:07.:46:13.

economy for a variety of reasons. First and foremost perhaps, it does

:46:14.:46:18.

not reflect the importance of how we make foreign policy in this country.

:46:19.:46:25.

In contrast to the US where foreign policy-making is much more of a

:46:26.:46:31.

diffuse process, academics, career diplomats, think tanks and

:46:32.:46:35.

politicians are all much more widely involved when it comes to the

:46:36.:46:40.

formation of policy. In contrast in this country, the pyramid is much

:46:41.:46:46.

narrower. Policy-making is basically structured and put into place by a

:46:47.:46:54.

smaller number of people and organisations, primarily senior

:46:55.:46:58.

people at the top of the FCO, senior people at Number Ten and perhaps a

:46:59.:47:04.

few others. It is therefore terribly important that all those components

:47:05.:47:09.

of our foreign policy-making are firing on all cylinders because if a

:47:10.:47:15.

particular part is not working, given the smaller number of

:47:16.:47:19.

components in the process, it can have a disproportionate effect on

:47:20.:47:22.

the actual policy overall and its effects. There is no shortage of

:47:23.:47:28.

examples where perhaps we have not done as well as we should have in

:47:29.:47:34.

responding to international crises and other incidents which perhaps

:47:35.:47:41.

have left us floundering. When it came to the Arab Spring for example

:47:42.:47:48.

we had so few are experts in the FCO we had to call them out of

:47:49.:47:52.

retirement. When it came to Russia's annexation of the Crimea, I think I

:47:53.:47:58.

am right in saying, and my right honourable friend can correct me,

:47:59.:48:02.

but we did not have one expert in the FCO and that contributed to a

:48:03.:48:09.

somewhat unconvincing response. I would suggest to the government that

:48:10.:48:13.

our interventions over the last 12 years or so have suffered from a

:48:14.:48:20.

lack of analytical skill and expertise which has been very costly

:48:21.:48:29.

to this country. I will. Thank you, I know that member for Basildon and

:48:30.:48:34.

Billericay has a long track history and he will probably be more gentle

:48:35.:48:40.

on the government then I will, that if we look at Libya, Afghanistan,

:48:41.:48:45.

Iraq amongst others, that lack of interrogation of the facts has been

:48:46.:48:51.

a disaster in many cases. Next time I will finish my sentence. I was

:48:52.:48:57.

about to say the examples included Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and I would

:48:58.:49:01.

suggest Syria. In Iraq there can be no doubt now that we went to war on

:49:02.:49:09.

a false premise. There were no WMD. We were all deceived. The job of

:49:10.:49:14.

Chilcott is to determine whether Number Ten intentionally deceived

:49:15.:49:18.

us. When it came to Afghanistan I supported the initial deployment in

:49:19.:49:23.

2001 to rid the country of Al-Qaeda and we have strong evidence to

:49:24.:49:27.

suggest we succeeded in that objective very early on. Were it

:49:28.:49:31.

went disastrously wrong, and this takes us back to the fact that if we

:49:32.:49:36.

did not fully understand the events on the ground, is that we allowed

:49:37.:49:41.

the mission to morph into nation-building. We went into

:49:42.:49:44.

Helmand not fully realising what that involved and certainly under

:49:45.:49:51.

resourcing it. In Libya we knocked down the door, that was the easy

:49:52.:49:56.

bit, but Libya has turned out to be a complete shambles in part because

:49:57.:50:00.

we failed to understand that the opposition to Gaddafi would splinter

:50:01.:50:10.

into 100 plus groups with different objectives and law and order has

:50:11.:50:13.

been nonexistent in that country ever since. In a minute. This has

:50:14.:50:21.

led to more bloodshed. Also a vicious civil war. I give way. I am

:50:22.:50:27.

very grateful to my honourable friend and I must interject at this

:50:28.:50:32.

juncture when he is referring to Libya. He was the only Conservative

:50:33.:50:35.

member of Parliament at that time to speak out against British military

:50:36.:50:40.

involvement in Libya and if I recall correctly from his speech at that

:50:41.:50:44.

time, he was asking some of the rather important questions to the

:50:45.:50:50.

government with hindsight has proved him to have been very correct

:50:51.:50:54.

impressing those questions. He referred previously to the small

:50:55.:50:58.

number of people who make foreign policy in this country. Would he

:50:59.:51:04.

agree with me that went in advance of British military intervention

:51:05.:51:08.

overseas, as was the case in Libya, there may need to be in future a

:51:09.:51:14.

greater period of engagement and deliberation between those like

:51:15.:51:17.

himself who do not fully support such actions so that these problems

:51:18.:51:23.

can be avoided. I've had my honourable friend, a fellow

:51:24.:51:26.

committee member, for his kind words. I would agree with him. There

:51:27.:51:32.

needs to be more time for reflection on these things. But we need greater

:51:33.:51:37.

investment in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, we need greater

:51:38.:51:41.

expertise and analytical skills because we need to make sure we have

:51:42.:51:46.

analysed the situation correctly. Our system of government performs

:51:47.:51:54.

better when we have a well-informed executive being questioned by the

:51:55.:51:58.

legislative. What we have had is a series of errors where it has become

:51:59.:52:02.

increasingly evident that actually the executive does not have the

:52:03.:52:07.

expertise to handle and that is one reason why the legislative has

:52:08.:52:11.

raised the bar when it comes to military intervention, because it

:52:12.:52:14.

has lacked the trust in the executive to make its case, to

:52:15.:52:19.

analyse the situation correctly and to make sound recommendations. Once

:52:20.:52:24.

you lose that trust, the legislative will raise the bar when it comes to

:52:25.:52:27.

military intervention, as we have seen. If I may take us back to some

:52:28.:52:35.

of the other errors we have made. I would suggest there were errors in

:52:36.:52:39.

Syria. This government line that we did not intervene early enough on

:52:40.:52:43.

behalf of the rebels accounts for the mess that is then now is simply

:52:44.:52:50.

not correct. The government's intention was to arm the rebels in

:52:51.:52:54.

the hope that they could keep the weapons confined to the good rebels

:52:55.:52:59.

and not allow them to spread to the bad rebels, in other ways to track

:53:00.:53:05.

and trace them. If anyone knows anything about the reason or who has

:53:06.:53:09.

visited the country, you should know everything can be traded in the

:53:10.:53:14.

bazaar. Plus the situation was so fast moving, that the idea that it

:53:15.:53:21.

could stop this falling into the hands of Al-Qaeda or other

:53:22.:53:25.

extremists was pure make-believe. Then in a couple of years having

:53:26.:53:30.

stopped doing that by this house in a key vote in 2013, the government

:53:31.:53:37.

proposes to intervene basically against the rebels. I will not be so

:53:38.:53:42.

unkind as to suggest we swapped sides in the Civil War within two

:53:43.:53:46.

years, but to the public it down what looks like that. It illustrates

:53:47.:53:52.

very well just how we have failed to analyse the situation correctly. But

:53:53.:53:59.

I would argue in the brief time left to me that actually in many respects

:54:00.:54:04.

our interventions have been a distraction. I for one, and I know

:54:05.:54:08.

there are many others in both sides of the House and some are sitting in

:54:09.:54:12.

this chamber today, have long advocated the need to spend more on

:54:13.:54:19.

our defence spending. Because these military intervention in Iraq,

:54:20.:54:24.

Afghanistan, Libya and Syria have distracted us from the greater

:54:25.:54:29.

threat and that is nation state is not necessarily friendly to the

:54:30.:54:34.

West, both rearming and reasserting their power and their influence.

:54:35.:54:40.

What immediately thinks of Russia, one immediately thinks of China, but

:54:41.:54:44.

there are others as well. For those who suggest the states of Hormuz or

:54:45.:54:50.

the South China Seas are far away and of little significance to us, I

:54:51.:54:55.

would suggest being a country based to such an extent on maritime trade,

:54:56.:55:03.

90% comes through by sea, if the Straits of Hormuz or the South China

:55:04.:55:07.

Seas were ever to be blocked, we would know about it in this country.

:55:08.:55:11.

I suggest we have been distracted and I suggest it is partly a

:55:12.:55:16.

function of the fact we are not investing enough in what I call our

:55:17.:55:22.

ears and eyes, our ability to understand what is happening out

:55:23.:55:26.

there. I would suggest one other thing. We have got to have a margin

:55:27.:55:34.

of safety, a margin of conflict with regards our capability because no

:55:35.:55:39.

one, no one, can confidently predict where the next trouble spot is going

:55:40.:55:44.

to be. History is littered with examples of where we were facing the

:55:45.:55:49.

wrong way. I suggest without that margin of conflict, without that

:55:50.:55:54.

margin of safety in our analytical capability, we could very well be

:55:55.:55:58.

caught short again if we have not put in the necessary investment. So

:55:59.:56:05.

I suggest that without the investment we make expensive

:56:06.:56:09.

mistakes, we have made them and it is a false economy therefore to talk

:56:10.:56:13.

about savings, particularly when you consider the budget is so small

:56:14.:56:17.

relative to government expenditure generally. Putting the point to the

:56:18.:56:25.

extreme, avoiding unnecessary conflict is vastly cheaper than

:56:26.:56:29.

actually committing to conflict which is costly in lives and costly

:56:30.:56:31.

in treasure. If only finish on 1 further point.

:56:32.:56:43.

Perhaps we do not talk enough about soft power, it is increasingly

:56:44.:56:47.

important. In this information age... Those who win the argument

:56:48.:56:56.

are going to be just as important as those who win the conflict, it's

:56:57.:57:01.

about the battle of ideas, the Battle of ideology, about persuading

:57:02.:57:09.

others to want what you want rather than just rattling the Sabre which

:57:10.:57:13.

can often be counter-productive as we have seen so many times in recent

:57:14.:57:18.

history. We don't attach enough importance to soft power in this

:57:19.:57:22.

country, we certainly don't attach enough importance to it when it

:57:23.:57:26.

comes to foreign policy making and we have clear examples now, where we

:57:27.:57:33.

are putting at risk our soft power capability. The BBC World Service,

:57:34.:57:39.

cuts in the past, have hindered our ability to reach out to people, that

:57:40.:57:43.

budget has been transferred out of the FCO and that, if you like,

:57:44.:57:50.

scope, but that was 1 example prior to the transfer. An example but

:57:51.:57:53.

currently sits in the FCO is the British Council. A venerable

:57:54.:58:01.

organisation that is doing tremendous work in spreading the

:58:02.:58:06.

word in encouraging people to want what we want, in providing an

:58:07.:58:11.

educational service and in trying to bring peoples together to improve

:58:12.:58:15.

understanding for the benefit of all concerned. And yet, what are we

:58:16.:58:20.

doing? We are making cuts to the British Council and Ford is the

:58:21.:58:25.

British Council having to do? It is having to become even worth

:58:26.:58:27.

commercial in trying to make up for those cuts. If you think a small cut

:58:28.:58:35.

of 10% is very little, when you are talking about commercial activities

:58:36.:58:39.

to try to make up for those cuts, given a 10% is the profit margin

:58:40.:58:44.

sometimes, you are having to make 100% increase in revenue than it

:58:45.:58:47.

comes to commercial activities to make up for the cut. It is the sort

:58:48.:58:51.

of short-sighted this that we must look a game at as a country because

:58:52.:58:56.

it's not serving this country well and I would argue it's not serving

:58:57.:59:00.

the international community well. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:59:01.:59:07.

think we need to ensure that our ears and eyes are working, if they

:59:08.:59:13.

are not in the world then we tend to make expensive mistakes, I suggest

:59:14.:59:20.

that because we haven't properly funded our analytical skills, our

:59:21.:59:22.

capabilities, we haven't been as well cited as we should've been, we

:59:23.:59:26.

have made and they have contributed, not the only reason but they have

:59:27.:59:31.

certainly contributed to a series of errors which proved exceedingly

:59:32.:59:34.

costly in lives, 1st and foremost but also exceedingly costly when it

:59:35.:59:39.

comes to Treasury and we come back to the point about false economies.

:59:40.:59:44.

It is a false economy to make cuts to your ears and eyes, the Foreign

:59:45.:59:52.

and Commonwealth Office capability if as a result we blunder into

:59:53.:59:56.

interventions that will cost us dearly in lives and treasure. I urge

:59:57.:00:00.

the government in conclusion, and I am pleased to see my friend, the

:00:01.:00:06.

banister, my right honourable friend, to increase in real terms

:00:07.:00:09.

the expenditure on the FCO, we will be better cited for it and will make

:00:10.:00:18.

less costly errors. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a pleasure to

:00:19.:00:22.

follow the honourable member for Basildon and Billericay who makes a

:00:23.:00:25.

perceptive speech and I'm grateful to him. Madame DDB speaker am the

:00:26.:00:30.

cut in funding for the Foreign Office on top of the 10% budget

:00:31.:00:37.

since 2010 is directly contrary to the UK key strategic interest and

:00:38.:00:42.

may prevent it from effectively addressing serious organisational

:00:43.:00:45.

issues within the Department. The threat to security from Daesh can't

:00:46.:00:50.

be effectively addressed by dropping bombs on Syria, Libya or Iraq.

:00:51.:00:54.

Threats to the economy from events in China and the Eurozone can't be

:00:55.:00:57.

washed away by the Treasury. We need to equip the FCO not only to meet

:00:58.:01:03.

the challenges of today but to be able to rise to meet the unknown

:01:04.:01:07.

challenges of tomorrow and there must be a renewed focus on aid and

:01:08.:01:13.

diplomacy in all that the FCO doors. As a recent FCO report on the

:01:14.:01:19.

Spending Review stated, in an increasingly unstable world

:01:20.:01:20.

government relies on the FCO to have critical decisions sometimes do

:01:21.:01:28.

Mormons notice. Over the last Parliament the country was found to

:01:29.:01:32.

be lacking in expertise, and all article capability and language

:01:33.:01:36.

skills to manage the fallout from the Arab Spring and Ukraine crisis.

:01:37.:01:46.

In 2010, it might have been thought that the skills in Donetsk and Raqqa

:01:47.:01:49.

were surplus to requirement but now it evidences the real danger to an

:01:50.:01:56.

underfunded FCO. The honourable lady makes some excellent points but I

:01:57.:02:02.

promise I will pursue this in Hansard afterwards, which she

:02:03.:02:10.

forgive me if I left at this point? Thank you very much. On this

:02:11.:02:17.

occasion, I shall forgive him! The FCO must have the capacity to be

:02:18.:02:22.

able to extend further on a day-to-day basis. In a speech to the

:02:23.:02:28.

Institute of government last year the outgoing permanent

:02:29.:02:30.

undersecretary of state for the FCO Sir Simon Fraser supported the

:02:31.:02:37.

protection of UK aid spending and 2% commission to defence spending but

:02:38.:02:41.

lamented that the FCO relatively small budget was unprotected in the

:02:42.:02:44.

coming Spending Review. He referred to the FCO to the glue that holds

:02:45.:02:51.

everything together. He said the FCO arguably deserved similar protection

:02:52.:02:55.

to larger budgets like the Ministry of Defence whose operation overseas

:02:56.:02:58.

would only stand to benefit from a strong FCO. This being said, Madam

:02:59.:03:04.

Deputy Speaker, the FCO clearly needs to reform its overseas network

:03:05.:03:09.

and stem spiralling costs especially in the climate when cuts are being

:03:10.:03:15.

felt so hard by so many. The focus must be on efficiency and efficacy.

:03:16.:03:21.

Sir Simon said the FCO deserves similar protection to larger budgets

:03:22.:03:25.

and on this basis, in the face of planned cuts I wonder if the

:03:26.:03:28.

Minister would be so kind and his remark to address the following

:03:29.:03:32.

question. What changes will be made to the implementation of government

:03:33.:03:37.

Aussie outside the UK where this spans a range of departments? Who

:03:38.:03:41.

decides which department is best placed to coordinate joint action

:03:42.:03:45.

between the part is and how will funding to support this be secured?

:03:46.:03:50.

Will this mean du munitions of the role of the FCO within government

:03:51.:03:54.

and what impact will this have on the continue strategic role of the

:03:55.:03:57.

department within government and finally, is it not a concern that

:03:58.:04:03.

the UK international role will be stratified and then balanced as the

:04:04.:04:08.

MOD which has a protected budget will have a stronger role without

:04:09.:04:12.

the balancing mechanism that the FCO can bring to this work. Madam Deputy

:04:13.:04:18.

Speaker, human rights need to be re-established as a top priority.

:04:19.:04:21.

The permanent undersecretary knowledge to that human rights was

:04:22.:04:26.

not now 1 of the top try or at ease. This must be addressed again. Moving

:04:27.:04:32.

on to what the FCO looks like to the outside world. In the same speech I

:04:33.:04:39.

referred to, Fraser also conceded in the past the FCO culture had been

:04:40.:04:44.

too narrow, too white, and to mail. He argued this was improved on his

:04:45.:04:49.

watch but acknowledged there was much more to do to achieve a greater

:04:50.:04:52.

diversity in the full sense of the word. Cutbacks within the Department

:04:53.:04:59.

may threaten progress in this vital area of equality and diversity.

:05:00.:05:04.

There were no women on the short list to replace Fraser as permanent

:05:05.:05:08.

undersecretary. He also noted the FCO have yet to appoint a woman

:05:09.:05:12.

ambassador to its most prestigious post like Washington and Paris. But

:05:13.:05:18.

emphasised women were no ambassadors in Beijing and Kabul. He put this

:05:19.:05:22.

down to the pipeline of diversity in the organisation pointing out the

:05:23.:05:27.

FCO started further behind the rest of Whitehall, having been the last

:05:28.:05:31.

Department to abolish its marriage ban as late as 1973. -- marriage

:05:32.:05:46.

bar, should I say. On wider diversity, although 12% of the total

:05:47.:05:51.

workforce is from minority ethnic backgrounds at senior levels, FCO

:05:52.:05:53.

leadership is most exclusively white. Fraser said they'd been a

:05:54.:05:58.

cultural switched understanding diversity not only matters what is

:05:59.:06:03.

good for the FCO, leading to better decisions and outcomes. That spreads

:06:04.:06:08.

to the wider workplace whatever that might be and this very house itself.

:06:09.:06:13.

So how will these proposed changes to the budget the Department impact

:06:14.:06:17.

on the work of the FCO to address this very culture? What schemes

:06:18.:06:22.

within the department will be funded in the next year to specifically

:06:23.:06:26.

address these issues? An isolationist agenda in our

:06:27.:06:31.

international relations has already damaged the UK's image, at the very

:06:32.:06:36.

least let's make sure this is and reflect within this country in terms

:06:37.:06:41.

of our workforce diversity. This should be and is indeed our

:06:42.:06:49.

strength. Richard union. Madam Deputy Speaker. I contribute to this

:06:50.:06:56.

debate by starting and congratulating my honourable friend

:06:57.:06:59.

the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee and his committee, albeit

:07:00.:07:04.

in its previous form, making a recommendation which the government

:07:05.:07:08.

listen to. But I entirely agree with my friend. What the Chancellor did

:07:09.:07:15.

with his announcement on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office spending was

:07:16.:07:21.

to draw a line of reductions over many years which I believe, like so

:07:22.:07:29.

many who have spoken already, have had a damaging effect on bread and's

:07:30.:07:33.

ability to project self power. I have just come from a meeting of the

:07:34.:07:38.

Defence Select Committee and we heard an organisation called the

:07:39.:07:41.

conflict studies research Centre which is to be based within

:07:42.:07:45.

Whitehall and was a government organisation but in a similar way as

:07:46.:07:47.

described by my honourable friend in terms of other aspects of our

:07:48.:07:52.

ability to inform the executive of what is going on, was cut. I'm

:07:53.:07:57.

delighted to say it has re-emerged in the private sector and this may

:07:58.:08:03.

be clearest as to how London continues to be a major hub for

:08:04.:08:08.

international organisations, think tanks and other areas of expertise

:08:09.:08:12.

in foreign affairs and defence issues, we must be smarter and fleet

:08:13.:08:18.

of foot in using these resources much as they do in Washington,

:08:19.:08:23.

rather better than us. In my capacity as a minister and

:08:24.:08:27.

subsequently in roles on select committees and through the NATO

:08:28.:08:30.

Parliamentary assembly of the privileged to see posts in the

:08:31.:08:34.

Foreign Office working abroad and have huge respect for those that

:08:35.:08:39.

work in them. I think during the Coalition Government time, was

:08:40.:08:45.

appreciated was the programme of closures of posts was reversed and

:08:46.:08:51.

that was furry welcome. But I think what we have in the Foreign and

:08:52.:08:53.

Commonwealth Office is something that has become broad and shallow.

:08:54.:08:59.

-- very welcome. We need to concentrate on finding depth and I

:09:00.:09:02.

agree with many of the sentiments of been put forward. I believe it's

:09:03.:09:06.

fundamentally important that William Hague reopening of the language

:09:07.:09:12.

school is part of a welcome re-engage went on these important

:09:13.:09:19.

skills. -- re- engagement. Foreign Office posts abroad, the UK projects

:09:20.:09:25.

soft power and I see this as a trade envoy as much as anyone. And that is

:09:26.:09:32.

why cuts to the FCO or short-sighted because when we can engage with

:09:33.:09:36.

countries, build relationships over a long period of time, that is

:09:37.:09:41.

reflected in jobs at home, exports and helping our balance of payments.

:09:42.:09:48.

I have seen our influence way exceed expenditure because of the hard work

:09:49.:09:51.

put into relationships built with governments and people of influence

:09:52.:09:55.

in countries and at the moment and kicking the dust off my feet from a

:09:56.:10:01.

trip to Jordan and Lebanon last week with the Defence Select Committee

:10:02.:10:05.

and I would like to put on record my thanks to 2 outstanding posts, the

:10:06.:10:09.

ambassador to the defence of Tasha, the political officers and security

:10:10.:10:13.

staff operating in those countries, our stock is why as a country and we

:10:14.:10:17.

then e-fit in trying to keep to country stable in the face of an

:10:18.:10:25.

believable threats over the broader in Iraq and Syria. I would like to

:10:26.:10:30.

look at what I honourable friend from Basildon and Billericay

:10:31.:10:34.

referred to as trouble spots and he perhaps looked back with a degree of

:10:35.:10:40.

Jordan Freud which I think he is justified in some cases in

:10:41.:10:45.

expressing. In looking at trouble spots he said we should look forward

:10:46.:10:49.

and where are the trouble spots of the future and I suggest 1 very

:10:50.:10:55.

daring 1 is a resurgent Russia. And throughout the Cold War, as has been

:10:56.:11:00.

said by my honourable friend, the chairman of the committee, we had

:11:01.:11:05.

real experts across Whitehall on the Soviet Union. Many of them, the

:11:06.:11:11.

posts were stripped out as they retired or moved... The corporate

:11:12.:11:21.

knowledge fell to an alarming degree. I know I may be straining

:11:22.:11:26.

slightly but the defence intelligence service, for example,

:11:27.:11:30.

had no Ukraine desk officer at the time of the uprising, it had to

:11:31.:11:35.

borrow 1 from the South Caucasus. And I imagine the same problem was

:11:36.:11:40.

existing within the Foreign Office, suddenly, the glaring reality of a

:11:41.:11:43.

major threat to Britain's interests and to NATO was emerging.

:11:44.:11:56.

There is a real need to understand these threats and make resources for

:11:57.:12:06.

the future. In other days there was some group accountability in the

:12:07.:12:10.

Soviet Union and you did not feel it was run by one individual on their

:12:11.:12:15.

women. Now in Russia it is run by one autocratic Megan Heath, a klepto

:12:16.:12:23.

crap of quite staggering proportions who can annex the sovereign

:12:24.:12:29.

territory of another state, have people murdered on the streets of

:12:30.:12:35.

London and oversees a regime that sees lawyers murdered and in prison

:12:36.:12:41.

in Russia and one wonders how many more Litvinenkos there are. He can

:12:42.:12:49.

do to buyers of Syria what he did to Grozny and who can threaten states

:12:50.:12:55.

who we are a treaty bound to defend under our membership of Nato. This

:12:56.:13:00.

is an individual for whom rules -based governance is anathema. We

:13:01.:13:06.

should govern much of our thinking and much of the way we resources our

:13:07.:13:12.

foreign policy and our defence policy by one clear question. What

:13:13.:13:17.

would Vladimir Putin want? Certainly. And what does the

:13:18.:13:23.

honourable gentleman think that Vladimir Putin would want in

:13:24.:13:27.

relation to the UK's membership of the European Union? The honourable

:13:28.:13:32.

member has probably read the next page in my speech and I will come on

:13:33.:13:36.

and answer precisely that because I think he and I agree. The point I

:13:37.:13:44.

was about to make was that what President Putin would want would be

:13:45.:13:47.

a Foreign and Commonwealth Office budget curtailed. He would want a

:13:48.:13:51.

weaker Nato, and Nato that is riven by infighting and continues running

:13:52.:13:58.

down its armed forces and Nato that does not respond to an escalation of

:13:59.:14:05.

aggressive actions towards stays on Russia's western border. But there

:14:06.:14:09.

has been a reversal in decline of defence spending, not least by

:14:10.:14:15.

Britain, but also by a number of our allies. But this requires massive

:14:16.:14:20.

efforts of diplomacy, to keep our alliance moving in the direction it

:14:21.:14:24.

should be, showing the ability to stand up to the actions of this

:14:25.:14:30.

regime. But to answer the honourable gentleman's point, what Vladimir

:14:31.:14:35.

Putin wants is a West were influential countries like Britain

:14:36.:14:39.

are less influential. He can see where I am going. Yes, he wants a

:14:40.:14:46.

weekend European Union. It is the EU, not Nato, that can impose

:14:47.:14:50.

damaging sanctions against the regime. He hates having an economic

:14:51.:14:58.

rule set on his western border. As the leader of the UK delegation to

:14:59.:15:02.

Nato, I recently attended a meeting at the Nato headquarters and

:15:03.:15:10.

informally and formally our allies crossed the floor to say to me with

:15:11.:15:19.

varying degrees of incredulity whether Britain was going to leave

:15:20.:15:24.

the EU. I hope the report will not just look at the costs of a possible

:15:25.:15:29.

Brexit, but look at the impact of Britain leaving would have on the

:15:30.:15:34.

geopolitics of our European foreign policy. These people were coming up

:15:35.:15:39.

to me and saying, even America, they were saying now? At this time with

:15:40.:15:47.

all that threatens Europe economically, militarily and in

:15:48.:15:52.

society? There is much our diplomatic services have to do in

:15:53.:15:55.

coming years. They have to shore up our alliances in Nato and shore up

:15:56.:16:01.

spending on defence amongst our allies and they have to use all

:16:02.:16:05.

methods, both hard and soft power to deter Russia through our hard and

:16:06.:16:13.

soft power postures. How we invest and work with our allies and how

:16:14.:16:17.

would exercise as Armed Forces and show strength. When we met with Jens

:16:18.:16:28.

Stoltenberg in Russia last week, he concurred with a lot of what my

:16:29.:16:34.

right honourable friend is saying, but he also discussed the importance

:16:35.:16:38.

of dialogue with Russia. Would he agree with me that it is important

:16:39.:16:43.

despite these tensions to attempt to engage with Russia to try to defuse

:16:44.:16:48.

these issues? I entirely agree with my honourable friend and I am not

:16:49.:16:54.

somebody who believes in confrontation. I think he probably

:16:55.:16:59.

knows me well enough in how I operate in this house and exactly

:17:00.:17:05.

the same applies in how we deal with a potential aggressor. Yes, that is

:17:06.:17:11.

the purpose of what I am saying today. Not only should we be strong

:17:12.:17:15.

and show that our alliance is strong and we are not going to see Article

:17:16.:17:23.

five boost by people like resident Putin, but we will be engaged

:17:24.:17:27.

diplomatically with him and his regime and try and get common sense.

:17:28.:17:32.

Also to use resources like the World Service and the British Council as

:17:33.:17:37.

my honourable friend talked about earlier. At Nato last week a

:17:38.:17:42.

Romanian who works in Nato said it was for her the greatest treat of

:17:43.:17:48.

her day, to sit under her bed clothes listening to the British

:17:49.:17:52.

World Service. It kept her in touch with what was going on in the West

:17:53.:17:56.

and the freedoms that we enjoy and she wanted some of that. She has now

:17:57.:18:01.

got it and through such means we can also influence people in Russia. I

:18:02.:18:07.

am very grateful to him for giving way again. When I used to go back to

:18:08.:18:13.

Warsaw to see my grandfather in communist times we always listened

:18:14.:18:19.

to the BBC World Service very quietly with the curtains drawn

:18:20.:18:23.

because it was illegal to do so. But can I say the comfort that that gave

:18:24.:18:29.

to my grandfather and his generation, knowing that there were

:18:30.:18:32.

those outside beyond the Iron Curtain who were struggling and

:18:33.:18:39.

trying to keep them informed was a great comfort to him. My honourable

:18:40.:18:43.

friend makes a powerful point and he and his family understand this more

:18:44.:18:47.

than anyone else in this house. I conclude by talking about one

:18:48.:18:53.

concept in terms of foreign policy and that is our will. Our will to

:18:54.:19:02.

make a better world, to extol the virtues of the kind of society we

:19:03.:19:06.

enjoy in this country and that most of our European colleagues also

:19:07.:19:12.

enjoy and in the West. Of course we face difficulties. We get on with

:19:13.:19:18.

our lives as independent members of different alliances, with Nato or

:19:19.:19:23.

the EU, or with other arrangements we have. And aggressor like Russia

:19:24.:19:31.

is one country run pretty much by one individual and so our world is

:19:32.:19:35.

tested. On the face of it we should not be alarmed because we have

:19:36.:19:44.

across Nato 3.2 million troops under arms, the four largest members of

:19:45.:19:52.

Nato who spends $740 billion a year on defence as against Russia's 65.6

:19:53.:20:00.

billion. But that statistic, start as it is, does not describe the

:20:01.:20:05.

depth of the problem. The depth of the problem we are seen in places

:20:06.:20:11.

such as Ukraine, Georgia, and now in Syria, threats whether they are

:20:12.:20:17.

actual or subversive threat to Nato countries such as the Baltic states.

:20:18.:20:22.

We have to have a strong will and to prove that we have that will

:20:23.:20:25.

requires resources, commitment, the hard slog of soft power and

:20:26.:20:31.

diplomatic efforts. It requires language skills and the real depth

:20:32.:20:37.

understanding and of course there are other problems in the world in

:20:38.:20:42.

the South China Sea and Africa and elsewhere, which draw many of those

:20:43.:20:46.

resources away from a particular problem. As so many people have

:20:47.:20:51.

said, we do not know what is coming around the corner next. But I am

:20:52.:20:56.

certain about one thing. Russia will tweak Nato's nose and it will push

:20:57.:21:02.

the envelope of article five, whether it is playing on Russian

:21:03.:21:05.

speaking nationals in certain countries, or whether it is

:21:06.:21:08.

threatening countries who are friendly to us, but not members of

:21:09.:21:12.

Nato like Sweden, through incursions into their waters of airspace. Today

:21:13.:21:21.

we had, I quote, any weakness on our part Russia exploits. Making sure

:21:22.:21:24.

Russia understands that the West will respond, will punish them if

:21:25.:21:29.

they attack a Nato state, must remain a key foreign policy

:21:30.:21:33.

objective, but it is an objective that needs proper resourcing. I

:21:34.:21:42.

welcome the opportunity for this debate and it is a pleasure to

:21:43.:21:48.

follow the member for Newbury. I agree entirely with what he set

:21:49.:21:51.

about President Putin. As others have said today, perhaps I would

:21:52.:22:02.

address President Putin directly and say in Russian this. I hope he will

:22:03.:22:08.

have heard that message. I really hope that was in order because I

:22:09.:22:12.

have no idea what the honourable gentleman said. If he could

:22:13.:22:16.

translate for the benefit of those who do not speak Russian I would be

:22:17.:22:21.

very grateful. If he wants to talk to us, we will be very happy to talk

:22:22.:22:26.

to him. The member for Newbury talked about language skills and

:22:27.:22:31.

that is an important matter. Without those language skills it is very

:22:32.:22:34.

difficult to engage effectively with others. It is a pity that the member

:22:35.:22:40.

for Basildon and Billericay is no longer in this place because had he

:22:41.:22:43.

been, I would have disagreed with him on the subject of Syria. What we

:22:44.:22:49.

do know about Syria is since the UK Parliament decided not to take

:22:50.:22:54.

action some years ago, a quarter of a million people have died and over

:22:55.:22:58.

4 million people have become refugees and several million more

:22:59.:23:03.

have become refugees within Syria. Whilst we cannot know for certain

:23:04.:23:09.

what the impact of limited UK military involvement might have

:23:10.:23:13.

been, what we do know and what we can see is the consequences of the

:23:14.:23:18.

failure to take any action. Could you remind the House what we are

:23:19.:23:26.

being asked to take action for? Indeed, I welcome back to that. I

:23:27.:23:34.

will take another intervention. I was going to raise a similar point

:23:35.:23:38.

to the one raised by the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, which

:23:39.:23:47.

is what with the consequences of Russian action be? Does this not go

:23:48.:23:50.

to the heart of the debate about the need to fund the FCO properly?

:23:51.:23:57.

Indeed and to respond to the earlier point, what we were being asked to

:23:58.:24:02.

do was to leave open the opportunity of there being military action taken

:24:03.:24:07.

in the future. That is what the vote was about. It was not about whether

:24:08.:24:11.

we should take military action at that point, but it would have left

:24:12.:24:15.

open that opportunity and because they voted leaving against, taking

:24:16.:24:27.

action was closed down at that point. The whole purpose of this

:24:28.:24:32.

debate is to highlight the importance of funding the FCO

:24:33.:24:39.

adequately. We were being invited to take military action in order to

:24:40.:24:44.

deprive President Assad's regime of its chemical weapons. That is what

:24:45.:24:48.

we were being asked to do. If there was a proposition to do something

:24:49.:24:52.

much wider than that, that is the proposition that should have been

:24:53.:24:56.

put to the House. My recollection may be slightly different to his,

:24:57.:25:01.

but if I recall correctly, what the vote was about was about leaving

:25:02.:25:06.

open the option of the UK Parliament taking military action at a point in

:25:07.:25:10.

the future which would have required another vote. The UK Parliament

:25:11.:25:14.

decided to say we do not want to leave open the option of that future

:25:15.:25:18.

vote and I regret that decision was taken. In relation to the European

:25:19.:25:26.

Union, I do hope we will be able to engage in a positive campaign on

:25:27.:25:34.

this matter and I wonder whether, not that this is entirely related to

:25:35.:25:38.

the estimates, whether the Minister for Europe has a view about whether

:25:39.:25:43.

to go campaign is the campaign that we should be pushing forward as the

:25:44.:25:47.

campaign for Brexit on the basis that it is a good cross-party

:25:48.:25:52.

campaign. Perhaps they are best placed to represent the Brexit

:25:53.:25:53.

campaign. benefits of being in the EU because

:25:54.:26:33.

I think the difficulty that we have got in the next four months, many of

:26:34.:26:39.

those ministers who rightly stated on balance we are better off in the

:26:40.:26:44.

EU, have previously perhaps not highlighted some of the positives

:26:45.:26:49.

involved. That, I can give to the Minister, is a no cost to the FCO

:26:50.:26:55.

ministers speaking positively about the European Union. On the subject

:26:56.:27:02.

of Syria... It would be helpful to know from the Minister exactly what

:27:03.:27:08.

is being billed in in budgetary terms for what we hope will be

:27:09.:27:12.

happening post- cease-fire, if the cease-fire holds and we get to a

:27:13.:27:18.

position for there is a degree of stabilisation in Syria, there will

:27:19.:27:25.

clearly need to be from the FCO, I suspect, quite a substantial

:27:26.:27:28.

financial commitment to greater involvement in the stabilisation

:27:29.:27:33.

process that should then follow. I hope that is something that is being

:27:34.:27:41.

budgeted for. What I want to focus on perhaps in the next 3 or four

:27:42.:27:45.

minutes is more the issue of human rights and the importance of having

:27:46.:27:49.

an FCO policy that promotes human rights. The honourable lady who

:27:50.:27:58.

represent South Kircher rightly referred to what the permanent

:27:59.:28:01.

undersecretary had to say and I quote... Human rights is 1 of the

:28:02.:28:10.

things we follow but it is not 1 of our top priorities. And he then and

:28:11.:28:14.

on to say in response to subsequent question that right now the

:28:15.:28:17.

prosperity agenda is further up the list. -- South Perthshire. I wrote

:28:18.:28:23.

to the permanent undersecretary after he was quoted to get clarity

:28:24.:28:27.

from him as to exactly what he said in relation to human rights and the

:28:28.:28:33.

prosperity agenda and how those 2 things work together and 1 was a

:28:34.:28:38.

greater priority than the other. He replied and I am very grateful for

:28:39.:28:44.

that, he didn't actually comment on the court about whether human rights

:28:45.:28:51.

was 1 of our top priorities but what he provided was a useful breakdown

:28:52.:28:57.

about how many people within the FCO in full-time equivalent terms work

:28:58.:29:00.

on human rights versus the number of people working principally on

:29:01.:29:06.

prosperity and within the FCO, it is 240 people working on human rights

:29:07.:29:11.

and 2900 people approximately working on prosperity. I don't know

:29:12.:29:18.

precisely what, from a budgetary point of view, there is in the

:29:19.:29:25.

estimates looking forward but as the Minister can say anything about how

:29:26.:29:28.

he thinks that balance might change in terms of the number of people

:29:29.:29:34.

within the FCO working on human rights issues as opposed to working

:29:35.:29:38.

on the prosperity agenda, if there is already some sort of forward

:29:39.:29:41.

vision about how that will change because clearly, there is a great

:29:42.:29:48.

sheath of things here, the Minister will be pleased to know I won't

:29:49.:29:51.

refer to all of them but there are many issues, human rights issues

:29:52.:29:55.

around the world, that I want to know the FCO will be fully engaged

:29:56.:30:02.

in. And just to run through very quickly, for instance, the issue of

:30:03.:30:07.

Burma, clearly very pleasing that there are developments they are but

:30:08.:30:12.

certainly I know that some of the Burma campaign groups are very

:30:13.:30:17.

worried that even with Aung San Suu Kyi, the important role she plays,

:30:18.:30:22.

there are minority groups who are perhaps at greater risk now than

:30:23.:30:28.

they were before so that requires FCO attention. On the question of

:30:29.:30:33.

Bahrain, we know the UK Government is working with the prison

:30:34.:30:36.

authorities and the police, again, there are concerns that the impact

:30:37.:30:44.

of that which was supposed to improve... Perhaps the human rights

:30:45.:30:51.

regard played by prisoner 30s and the police in Bahrain, that is not

:30:52.:30:54.

yet delivering the goods so I would want to be certain that the FCO is

:30:55.:30:58.

sufficiently resourced to ensure that the case and I could say the

:30:59.:31:03.

same about China, for instance. Perhaps the most worrying

:31:04.:31:08.

development and 4 I think the FCO really needs to inventory heavily

:31:09.:31:13.

and make sure they have got the right number of people in place,

:31:14.:31:16.

that is the question of Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I am really concerned

:31:17.:31:21.

that at some point in your future, it will be confirmed that there have

:31:22.:31:29.

been breaches of international humanitarian law, there are enough

:31:30.:31:32.

organisations that I think produced evidence to suggest that is likely

:31:33.:31:36.

to be the case and therefore the FCO, I think they will be in a very

:31:37.:31:41.

difficult position for the Parliamentary Secretary as I think

:31:42.:31:47.

repeatedly said that there have been discussions with the Saudis and

:31:48.:31:49.

there have been assurances given but it seems to me as though the

:31:50.:31:54.

evidence points in the other direction and the FCO does need to

:31:55.:31:59.

monitor very carefully perhaps the activities of the MoD who are

:32:00.:32:05.

responsible for assessing whether IHL has or has not been broken.

:32:06.:32:10.

Because I don't think it would be to know 1's interest to find out

:32:11.:32:15.

subsequently that infect ie Chel had been broken in relation to the

:32:16.:32:23.

activities of the Saudis in Yemen. -- that in fact ie Chel. I hope

:32:24.:32:34.

perhaps as its 1st inquiry it will look at the question of UK arms

:32:35.:32:37.

sales to Saudi Arabia because I think that is, for them, I would

:32:38.:32:41.

think, the most pressing problem. I could also mention human rights

:32:42.:32:47.

issues in Sri Lanka which remain a priority for the Tamil community or

:32:48.:32:53.

indeed, the human rights of the anti Moslem community in various

:32:54.:32:58.

countries around the world 3rd they are often put under pressure so

:32:59.:33:00.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to speak by saying the investment we

:33:01.:33:07.

make in the FCO, whether it's hard investment in terms of presence

:33:08.:33:11.

around the world or indeed, the soft power, the number of members that

:33:12.:33:15.

have referred to this, must be a priority for us. It helps a sponge

:33:16.:33:19.

above our weight and I think it helps ensure that the UK, whether

:33:20.:33:24.

it's through things like the British Council or our embassy presence

:33:25.:33:27.

around the world, is a major player on the world stage and that is

:33:28.:33:31.

something that certainly I would like to insure continues. Patrick

:33:32.:33:38.

Grady. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I congratulate 1st of

:33:39.:33:42.

all, a cherub of foreign affairs select committee and his colleagues

:33:43.:33:46.

including my honourable friend for north-east Fife on the important job

:33:47.:33:49.

they've done in producing the report and are quite considerable success

:33:50.:33:53.

they have achieved in persuading the Chancellor to at least maintain the

:33:54.:33:57.

Foreign Office budget more or less at what was in the face of very

:33:58.:34:01.

great treasure and I will come back to some of those points as we go on.

:34:02.:34:07.

As my honourable friend for Perth and North Perthshire quite rightly

:34:08.:34:10.

pointed out this is a debate on the estimates and of course, Madam

:34:11.:34:14.

Deputy Speaker, you were only doing your job to call him to order

:34:15.:34:17.

because of the rules and conventions of this House by which you as the

:34:18.:34:22.

chair are bound but it serves to demonstrate a complete inadequacy of

:34:23.:34:27.

the estimates process that we have. The motion in front of us today

:34:28.:34:33.

authorises in clauses 2 and 3 D expenditure of more than ?50,000,000

:34:34.:34:38.

of public money and yet, look how empty the chamber is, not even a

:34:39.:34:41.

contribution from the backbenches of the official opposition party on

:34:42.:34:46.

this matter and it speaks to the broader estimates contained in the

:34:47.:34:51.

mighty House of Commons paper 747 named after a jumbo jet no doubt due

:34:52.:34:55.

to it's not inconsiderable size and yet... Here we are, barely an hour

:34:56.:34:59.

and 20 minutes after starting, moving to the wind-up speeches. All

:35:00.:35:04.

kinds of important government expenditure having no kind of real

:35:05.:35:10.

in-depth scrutiny. Page 407 includes a payment from the resources

:35:11.:35:14.

reserves programme budget in respect of the Battle of New Orleans

:35:15.:35:19.

commemoration, an increase of ?142,000, page 410, are transferred

:35:20.:35:26.

to the Cabinet office capital budget in respect of the foxhound project,

:35:27.:35:30.

whatever that is. The chamber may never know, perhaps the Minister can

:35:31.:35:35.

tell us. A decrease of ?3,000,000 to the government budget and on page

:35:36.:35:40.

410, cost neutral transfer of the older plurality building, much, I'm

:35:41.:35:44.

sure, appreciated by FCO officials to be transferred to the Department

:35:45.:35:49.

of Education and of course I will give way. I have some sympathy for

:35:50.:35:54.

the honourable gentleman and the arguments made over estimates and

:35:55.:35:59.

since he raised it, I wonder if I could give notice to the Minister

:36:00.:36:02.

and his officials, perhaps they could give an explanation as to why

:36:03.:36:08.

we have given that money to celebrate a British defeat which

:36:09.:36:10.

happened after the peace treaty had actually been concluded around the

:36:11.:36:16.

war in which to place. Perhaps we can also have an explanation of the

:36:17.:36:20.

biggest number of all in the Foreign Office estimates which is the budget

:36:21.:36:25.

neutral increase in programme expenditure fully offset by an

:36:26.:36:31.

increase in receipts in respect and advised government charging, a sum

:36:32.:36:37.

of ?220,000,000, either way, if the Minister could explain that to us,

:36:38.:36:40.

then we might at least have had some focus on the actual estimates

:36:41.:36:45.

themselves. I thank the honourable member for his point and I think he

:36:46.:36:49.

makes my point for me. It goes to demonstrate the complete lack of

:36:50.:36:53.

scrutiny and of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, you said earlier on there

:36:54.:36:58.

are other mechanisms through Select Committee and Question Time

:36:59.:37:01.

statements and we can discuss different aspects of expenditure but

:37:02.:37:05.

the estimate process itself is clearly inadequate and it's

:37:06.:37:08.

particularly inadequate for those members from Scotland who were told

:37:09.:37:12.

during the debate that this was the way you which we could discuss

:37:13.:37:16.

Barnett consequentials on the impact of legislation for which we cannot

:37:17.:37:21.

afford participate due to the evil procedures, this would be our

:37:22.:37:24.

opportunity and it seems as if that opportunity is being denied to us.

:37:25.:37:28.

As a member of the procedure committee I look forward to our

:37:29.:37:31.

inquiry into the estimates procedure and look forward to questioning

:37:32.:37:36.

government and the stress, Treasury ministers in particular and members

:37:37.:37:39.

from across the House on how we can make this procedure fairer but at

:37:40.:37:43.

the risk of deviating too far from the motion in front of us on being

:37:44.:37:46.

called out of order myself, I'll turn to the more general themes of

:37:47.:37:48.

the debate contained in the committee report and the broader

:37:49.:37:54.

issue of the FCO role and function. From the tone of the debate, it

:37:55.:37:59.

seems that the FCO is in something of a precarious situation. It is a

:38:00.:38:04.

thick like so many other departments, people, communities,

:38:05.:38:07.

across this country, of the government's ideological commitment

:38:08.:38:12.

to swingeing public service cuts no matter what the cost. In the SNP

:38:13.:38:17.

manifesto we shall did was possible to modestly increased public

:38:18.:38:22.

services and over the long term, still balance the books, pay down

:38:23.:38:27.

the public debt. This is 1 of the more on proceding and probably

:38:28.:38:30.

slightly less concerning aspects cos it's not impinging on people's

:38:31.:38:34.

day-to-day lives in the way so many other cups or nevertheless, it's an

:38:35.:38:39.

impact of an ideological drive from the government and at the same time,

:38:40.:38:44.

it's leading to an increasingly ideological and almost isolationist

:38:45.:38:50.

narrowing of focus and interest and diverging so away from what should

:38:51.:38:53.

be priority areas, the protection of human rights and the promotion of

:38:54.:38:55.

peaceful and sustainable development. Some of that has been

:38:56.:38:59.

alluded to in the discussion about the role of the FCO and its

:39:00.:39:06.

expenditure on overseas and official development assistance, we in the

:39:07.:39:09.

SNP have long welcomed the commitment to 0 points 7% of GNI to

:39:10.:39:14.

be spent on ODA and the government commitment to this, meeting the

:39:15.:39:17.

target isn't a blank cheque to spend it on whatever it can cram into the

:39:18.:39:21.

definition, I raised several times on the floor of has seen increasing

:39:22.:39:25.

overlap between expenditure of the target and the 2% NATO target which

:39:26.:39:29.

might be allowed in principle but I don't that what people expect in

:39:30.:39:31.

practice and the government committed to those. The honourable

:39:32.:39:38.

member for Barbara Keeley touched on the use of ODA and the World Service

:39:39.:39:42.

and the number of concerns that he raised on my honourable friend from

:39:43.:39:47.

South Perthshire talked about the importance of effective Corporation

:39:48.:39:50.

across government so it'll be interesting to hear the ministerial

:39:51.:39:56.

response to your points. The budget is 1 of the smallest in government

:39:57.:39:59.

but it doesn't mean it's necessarily the most effective or efficient, the

:40:00.:40:02.

discussion as I said is in the context of the pressure felt across

:40:03.:40:07.

public spending, so if the FCO budget is to be protected and it

:40:08.:40:11.

must be used efficiently and we heard from the Liberal Democrat

:40:12.:40:15.

member some statistics about the number of people employed. I've had

:40:16.:40:19.

over my lifetime, the opportunity for various reasons to visit 3 of

:40:20.:40:24.

her Majesty's embassies and high commissions around the world. In

:40:25.:40:29.

Malawi, despite 2,000,000 people in the country not having access to

:40:30.:40:33.

clean water, the High Commissioner has at his disposal a swimming pool

:40:34.:40:37.

in his residence in Zambia and a tennis court provided in the country

:40:38.:40:40.

for most children probably play football without shoes and read

:40:41.:40:44.

before I was in Berlin to find the embassy takes up an entire street

:40:45.:40:48.

blocked and practically stopped the traffic through 1 of the main

:40:49.:40:53.

thoroughfares right next to it so undoubtedly, there are efficiencies

:40:54.:40:57.

to be found. We were told during the independence referendum Scotland

:40:58.:41:00.

could never afford a network of global embassies and outposts and it

:41:01.:41:04.

would be 1 of the crippling costs of independence and to be fair if we

:41:05.:41:08.

tried to replicate what the FCO has, it might well be true but I think a

:41:09.:41:12.

country like Scotland could probably manage more modestly in considering

:41:13.:41:15.

the role we play in the world today, so could the United United Kingdom

:41:16.:41:20.

and for that matter, the United States. There are other issues

:41:21.:41:24.

touched on another debates and I think the FCO needs to consider

:41:25.:41:29.

those, I debate in Westminster Hall while ago about consular assistance

:41:30.:41:33.

for families but people who are briefed by loved ones overseas. And

:41:34.:41:40.

I wrote to the Minister's collie, the Parliamentary and circuitry

:41:41.:41:44.

provides support for people who are victims of terrorist attacks, or in

:41:45.:41:49.

her case he witnessed the Tunisia tax and she feels furry concerned

:41:50.:41:52.

about the lack of information and communication. I touched on that in

:41:53.:41:56.

a letter and Parliamentary questions. We have also heard about

:41:57.:42:04.

the downgrading of human rights in the FCO. And the director of Amnesty

:42:05.:42:10.

International says the UK is setting a dangerous precedent to the world

:42:11.:42:15.

and human rights, the downgrading of human rights by this government as a

:42:16.:42:18.

gift to dictators the world over and undermines our ability to collar the

:42:19.:42:22.

country is too appalled rights and laws, a serious concern I've heard

:42:23.:42:26.

from a number of civil society organisations and I think it's

:42:27.:42:29.

important it is addressed. No-frills is that more true than in Yemen and

:42:30.:42:36.

Saudi Arabia. UK planes with pilots trained in the UK, bombs made in the

:42:37.:42:41.

UK, Courtney did in the presence of UK military advisers are being used

:42:42.:42:44.

in the war in Yemen and at some point the governorate has to tell us

:42:45.:42:45.

when that adds up to complicity. In conclusion, this ought to be a

:42:46.:42:57.

debate on the estimates process, but we have shown the inadequacy in this

:42:58.:43:03.

house for dealing with this. But we have touched on the very important

:43:04.:43:09.

role of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office because of the ideological

:43:10.:43:14.

budget cuts and the challenges that prevent a more effective use of

:43:15.:43:24.

taxpayers' money. It is a privilege to have the opportunity to speak in

:43:25.:43:29.

this important debate and with an international network of 268 posts

:43:30.:43:36.

across 168 states, the FCO has a long history in being a world

:43:37.:43:39.

leader, securing these, protecting citizens abroad. Last year the UK

:43:40.:43:46.

was ranked number one in the world in the league table of soft power.

:43:47.:43:52.

As the honourable member for Basildon and Billericay mentioned,

:43:53.:43:58.

the concept of the Battle of ideas is incredibly important as we

:43:59.:44:00.

approach the concept of our work abroad. The question is whether this

:44:01.:44:07.

year's spending review undermines the important work of the FCO and

:44:08.:44:12.

undermines our standing in the world of diplomacy. We know since 2010,

:44:13.:44:17.

the government has repeatedly cut the budget of the FCO and now we

:44:18.:44:21.

have a Foreign Office that is not only the smallest budget of any

:44:22.:44:26.

Whitehall department, but one that has had its budget slashed by 16% in

:44:27.:44:33.

real terms. According to the report mentioned several times today by the

:44:34.:44:37.

House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, we spend less on

:44:38.:44:40.

diplomacy and Canada, France, the United States and New Zealand.

:44:41.:44:45.

Germany spends almost 50% more than this government does. Some key

:44:46.:44:50.

states such as China, Brazil, Indonesia and Russia are increasing

:44:51.:44:54.

their diplomatic budgets. Whilst I welcome the support and support the

:44:55.:45:01.

announcement the SCO's budget will be protected in real terms, this

:45:02.:45:06.

comes after five years of cuts that have reduced the workforce to an

:45:07.:45:10.

all-time low and risked undermining its ability to have influence in the

:45:11.:45:16.

world. The committee's report shows that over the last parliament the

:45:17.:45:22.

country was found to be lacking in expertise, analytic capability and

:45:23.:45:25.

language skills to manage the fallout from the Arab Spring and the

:45:26.:45:31.

crisis in Ukraine. We had some very interesting Russian from the

:45:32.:45:35.

honourable member for Carshalton and indeed the member for Bolton and

:45:36.:45:40.

south-east emphasised just how important acquiring language skills

:45:41.:45:43.

are. You never know when you might need a language. I hope today the

:45:44.:45:48.

House will receive a clear outline of spending estimates from the

:45:49.:45:51.

honourable gentleman which will demonstrate how he intends to repair

:45:52.:45:57.

the damage to allow the UK to pursue its political and diplomatic

:45:58.:46:01.

objectives and maintained a global leader in soft power resources. Last

:46:02.:46:07.

summer the world observed the largest refugee crisis since the

:46:08.:46:12.

Second World War. According to figures released by the United

:46:13.:46:15.

Nations High Commissioner for refugees, there are an estimated

:46:16.:46:21.

59.9 million forcibly displaced people worldwide. Over 20 million

:46:22.:46:25.

are externally displaced refugees. As has been debated in the House

:46:26.:46:31.

frequently, millions of these refugees are fleeing the

:46:32.:46:36.

destabilising civil war in Syria. Indeed earlier today following the

:46:37.:46:42.

urgent question by my honourable friend, the House was fully engaged

:46:43.:46:46.

in a debate about how the situation could possibly improve in Syria. We

:46:47.:46:51.

simply must have the resources to match the energy and the desire in

:46:52.:46:55.

this house to see peace in the Middle East. Given the media

:46:56.:46:59.

coverage, it would be easy to think this was where the problem ended,

:47:00.:47:05.

but we know millions of people have fled Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan,

:47:06.:47:12.

Burma, Iraq, Eritrea, the DRC, Ethiopia, Sri Lanka, the Gaza, the

:47:13.:47:18.

West Bank, the crisis is global. This is a clear example of why we

:47:19.:47:22.

need a Foreign and Commonwealth Office that is properly funded and

:47:23.:47:25.

capable of engaging with these issues.

:47:26.:47:37.

It has become clear that as a result of five years of cuts there has been

:47:38.:47:46.

a change in the FCO's focus on human rights. As the committee report

:47:47.:47:50.

noted the permanent undersecretary at knowledge human rights was not

:47:51.:47:55.

now one of the top priorities and in a constrained environment other

:47:56.:48:00.

elements of the FCO's work had supplanted it to an extent. We

:48:01.:48:04.

believe this to be a consequence of the savings imposed on this

:48:05.:48:08.

department. To give one banning sample were there has been a lot of

:48:09.:48:11.

correspondence between Labour colleagues and others, a British

:48:12.:48:20.

citizen currently imprisoned in Ethiopia and something we could be

:48:21.:48:24.

devoting much more energy to where we too have the resources on site

:48:25.:48:28.

there in country. At one time securing peace, strengthening human

:48:29.:48:33.

rights and protecting our citizens abroad were at the top of the FCO's

:48:34.:48:39.

priorities. Yet the recent state visit by China appears to

:48:40.:48:45.

demonstrate that its priority is mainly commercial. It was up to the

:48:46.:48:48.

Leader of the Opposition to specifically raise the problem for

:48:49.:48:55.

terror arrangements which put the UK at a disadvantage in steel trade

:48:56.:49:02.

with China. In recent months I would also add the priority of

:49:03.:49:06.

international security in relation to the South China Sea question.

:49:07.:49:11.

This government's foreign policy lacks balance. Trade is only one

:49:12.:49:16.

side of the chorion with China or any other nation. The other side of

:49:17.:49:20.

the coin, human rights, appears to have dropped in importance. The

:49:21.:49:27.

Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has committed

:49:28.:49:30.

to an internal review. We look forward to seeing that. Yet this

:49:31.:49:33.

house is still waiting to be told if it will be made public. Ministers

:49:34.:49:38.

should explain why they will not commit now to publishing this

:49:39.:49:47.

document. Madame Deputy Speaker, in conclusion the FCO website states is

:49:48.:49:50.

priorities are to protect British people, promote our global influence

:49:51.:49:56.

and promote prosperity. But five years of cuts on, does it remain fit

:49:57.:50:00.

to deliver these priorities? There is strong evidence, much of what we

:50:01.:50:06.

have heard today, that the diplomatic operations have been

:50:07.:50:09.

devalued and the workforce has been cut back. I look forward to hearing

:50:10.:50:14.

the minister's comments on projected estimates and I hope to hear more on

:50:15.:50:20.

how an adequately resourced FCO might lead to a more rounded foreign

:50:21.:50:28.

policy. Madame Deputy Speaker, can I first of all that my honourable

:50:29.:50:33.

friend the member for Reigate and the members of the foreign and

:50:34.:50:36.

Commonwealth affairs Select Committee by ringing their report to

:50:37.:50:41.

debate this afternoon. I think from all sides of the House there was a

:50:42.:50:50.

common theme which was of the importance of an effective

:50:51.:50:58.

diplomatic service and Foreign Office in advancing and defending

:50:59.:51:01.

the interests of the United Kingdom in the face of multiple challenges

:51:02.:51:09.

in different parts of the world. I would also in particular like to

:51:10.:51:14.

thank those honourable members who paid tribute to the work of

:51:15.:51:19.

individual members of her Majesty's diplomatic service. That gives me

:51:20.:51:25.

the opportunity not only to thank them, but to put on record my own

:51:26.:51:31.

thanks to that of the ministerial team for the professionalism and

:51:32.:51:35.

commitment which members of the diplomatic service have shown to us

:51:36.:51:41.

as to previous governments. They continue to work Day in, day out on

:51:42.:51:45.

behalf of the people of this country. Now, I want to move on to

:51:46.:51:58.

the question of the spending review and the settlement for the FCO, but

:51:59.:52:03.

I cannot quite let the remarks of the honourable lady, the member for

:52:04.:52:12.

Wood Green, though without comment. I completely understand that it is

:52:13.:52:19.

the job of a spokesman for her Majesty's opposition to try to find

:52:20.:52:23.

criticisms to make of her Majesty's government. I can remember doing

:52:24.:52:29.

that myself some years back. But the degree of an easier that infected

:52:30.:52:36.

herd judgment on this occasion really was astounding. It was as if

:52:37.:52:47.

the years from 1997 - 2010 had been airbrushed out of the historical

:52:48.:52:53.

record. It is worth reminding the House that under the governments of

:52:54.:52:59.

Tony Blair and Gordon Brown the Foreign Office budget was cut, posts

:53:00.:53:06.

were closed, the language school was axed altogether, the library was

:53:07.:53:11.

scrapped and we got to the most crazy situation of all wear her

:53:12.:53:17.

former colleague, Mr David Miliband, was reduced after the Treasury had

:53:18.:53:20.

removed the traditional protection offered by the Treasury as a result

:53:21.:53:31.

of payments of salaries and Brazil's, there was a removal of

:53:32.:53:36.

that protection and Mr Miliband was reduced to having to draft members

:53:37.:53:41.

of the diplomatic service in to establish a hedge fund unit inside

:53:42.:53:45.

the Foreign Office so the Foreign Office could operate a hedge and

:53:46.:53:52.

operation of its own. I really do not want to hear too many lectures

:53:53.:53:56.

from the party opposite about Foreign Office expenditure and

:53:57.:54:02.

sensible budgeting. Now, I think the Foreign Affairs Committee and the

:54:03.:54:09.

House as a whole is entitled to ensure the government is held

:54:10.:54:12.

properly to account for delivery of its responsibilities in the field of

:54:13.:54:20.

foreign and security affairs. My honourable friend, the member for

:54:21.:54:25.

Reigate, and the honourable member for Glasgow North, ask questions

:54:26.:54:32.

about two or three specific items in the estimate. I will write to them

:54:33.:54:38.

about two of those, but I can give my honourable friend some

:54:39.:54:44.

satisfaction over the question of the Battle of New Orleans where I

:54:45.:54:49.

have been given additional advice. The purpose of that commemoration

:54:50.:54:52.

was to commemorate the British dead in that battle. Also to celebrate

:54:53.:54:59.

the 200 years of peace between the United Kingdom and the United States

:55:00.:55:02.

that have followed. The Foreign Office has contributed 215,000 US

:55:03.:55:11.

dollars, other contributors have included the state of Louisiana,

:55:12.:55:19.

Boeing, and a significant personal donation from our honorary Consul in

:55:20.:55:28.

New Orleans. Can we see how adroit he and his team are by explaining

:55:29.:55:32.

what project foxhound is and is this a welcome addition to the leisure of

:55:33.:55:38.

her Majesty's government or is it something else? If my honourable

:55:39.:55:45.

friend is expecting us to reopen the debate on field sports, I will

:55:46.:55:50.

disappoint him as regards that. That is one of the subject on which I

:55:51.:55:54.

will write to him and the honourable gentleman, the member for Glasgow

:55:55.:55:59.

North. The Foreign Affairs Committee report published on the 20th of

:56:00.:56:05.

October last year came before the publication of the spending review

:56:06.:56:11.

as well as before the publication of the National Security strategy in

:56:12.:56:12.

November last year. that is important because I is I

:56:13.:56:58.

think has been the view... An effective and expert diplomatic

:56:59.:57:05.

service is 1 very important element in allowing the country to respond

:57:06.:57:09.

to the international challenges to interests which we face. There is no

:57:10.:57:15.

avoiding the fact that even, despite that commitment, to protect the

:57:16.:57:21.

budget of the FCO in real terms, there are still going to be some

:57:22.:57:26.

difficult decisions for my right honourable friend the Foreign

:57:27.:57:30.

Secretary to take about relative priorities within the Department but

:57:31.:57:38.

I think that is no more than the challenges that would confront any

:57:39.:57:41.

Secretary of State. We would all like to feel that the budget

:57:42.:57:47.

available to us was unlimited in the real world, the budget is finite and

:57:48.:57:53.

are constrained by the government's overall need to bring down the

:57:54.:58:01.

deficit and address a long history of this country living beyond its

:58:02.:58:06.

means in terms of the public finances. The future FCO review

:58:07.:58:13.

about which my honourable friend the Member for Reigate asks me is

:58:14.:58:20.

designed in part to find ways in which we can secure our objectives

:58:21.:58:26.

as the Department by doing things differently. I have talked briefly

:58:27.:58:32.

to the reviewer who is also speaking to other ministers and senior

:58:33.:58:40.

officials, the purpose of the review is to advise ministers and senior

:58:41.:58:47.

officials on how the FCO can be more expertly agile and focus more on the

:58:48.:58:54.

Department's key priorities than it is at the moment and I expect the

:58:55.:59:03.

review to be in a position to set out later this year, I hope, by the

:59:04.:59:10.

end of the spring... It's conclusions and we intend there

:59:11.:59:15.

should be a clear vision about how the organisation should look by 2020

:59:16.:59:22.

so that we can put changes in place within the Department which will

:59:23.:59:27.

enable us with the priorities we have the resources we have... To

:59:28.:59:33.

secure our objectives more effectively and efficiently than we

:59:34.:59:38.

have done in the past. We are hoping that the review will ensure that

:59:39.:59:44.

where efficiencies can be made, that those savings can be channelled

:59:45.:59:51.

straight back into serving the core objectives that the Foreign

:59:52.:59:54.

Secretary has said. My honourable friend did also ask me about the

:59:55.:00:01.

Spending Review letter. The position is that the government's policy in

:00:02.:00:04.

respect of all departments is not to publish settlement letters, there is

:00:05.:00:09.

plenty of public information in terms of the Spending Review

:00:10.:00:13.

documentation and the Chancellor's speech and answers on the letters

:00:14.:00:15.

themselves are part of ongoing policy discussions and therefore we

:00:16.:00:20.

consider that it is not appropriate that those should be in the public

:00:21.:00:30.

domain at this time. The overall resource departmental expenditure

:00:31.:00:32.

limit for the FCO will rise in line with inflation in each of the four

:00:33.:00:38.

years covered by the Spending Review, increasing funding from 1.1

:00:39.:00:44.

billion in 201516 2 1 point to 4,000,000,000 x 20 1920. We believe

:00:45.:00:52.

the settlement will unable be Department maintained contain

:00:53.:00:54.

upper-class diplomatic service including a network of posts around

:00:55.:01:00.

the world which host not only the FCO but also 32 other government

:01:01.:01:06.

departments and agencies. This global presence and continued policy

:01:07.:01:09.

leadership and fight will serve to protect national security, promote

:01:10.:01:13.

respiratory and protect the UK's values overseas. In line with the

:01:14.:01:19.

government commitment to spend 0 points 7% of gross national income

:01:20.:01:23.

on development assistance, the FCO will be allocated additional ODA

:01:24.:01:29.

resources more than doubling our spending from 273,000,000 in the

:01:30.:01:35.

current financial year to 560,000,020 19, 20 and this will

:01:36.:01:40.

enable us to proceed key foreign policy priorities and deliver the

:01:41.:01:42.

ambition set out in the national security strategy and the

:01:43.:01:47.

development strategy. The honourable member for South Kircher asked how

:01:48.:01:53.

we reconcile the priorities of different departments and ensure

:01:54.:01:59.

that these were as far as possible incorporated with an overall agreed

:02:00.:02:06.

government approach and the answer to that, in part... There are

:02:07.:02:10.

frequent conversations between ministers in the different

:02:11.:02:13.

departments dealing with external affairs and between officials, but

:02:14.:02:21.

the strategic direction on the key elements of the United Kingdom's

:02:22.:02:25.

external policy in its broadest sense I set up to discussion by the

:02:26.:02:28.

National Security Council chaired by the Prime Minister so it brings

:02:29.:02:36.

together the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, the

:02:37.:02:37.

development secretary and Defence Secretary and other interested

:02:38.:02:44.

ministers precisely so we can agree on an approach which harnesses the

:02:45.:02:52.

different skills of all government departments and which also, the same

:02:53.:02:56.

time, establishes which Department will contribute which resources to

:02:57.:03:02.

that common object. The settlement includes increased spending to

:03:03.:03:07.

support the UK's overseas territories. In order to meet our

:03:08.:03:11.

long-standing commitment to address its reasonable needs, the FCO will

:03:12.:03:15.

coordinate a new strategy for overseas territories and share a new

:03:16.:03:19.

direct level board to coordinate cross government activity.

:03:20.:03:22.

Furthermore as announced by the Prime Minister during the

:03:23.:03:24.

Commonwealth heads of government meeting in Malta last year, the UK

:03:25.:03:29.

will host the next such heads of government gathering in 2018 and the

:03:30.:03:33.

FCO will be caught meeting that event. The Spending Review providing

:03:34.:03:43.

the budget for scholarships and 201516 ?46,000,000 every year, and

:03:44.:03:47.

operates 32 history that scheme has built up a large and influential

:03:48.:03:51.

London eye network aligned with the interests of the UK and the funding

:03:52.:04:00.

will ensure this continues. -- alum 9 network. On the question of

:04:01.:04:07.

language training and skills... The FCO language centre was reopened in

:04:08.:04:15.

September 2013 to renew focus on an investment in line which is as a car

:04:16.:04:18.

diplomatic skill and ensuring we do get the right people with the right

:04:19.:04:21.

skills in the right jobs to deliver or object was. -- as a cord that

:04:22.:04:28.

dramatic skill. We want to improve Mandarin, Russia and Arabic skills

:04:29.:04:34.

as a priority and as I look back at 2015, we trained in that year 34

:04:35.:04:40.

staff and Arabic, 14 in Mandarin, 24 in Russian as well as 35 in French

:04:41.:04:46.

and 28 in Spanish. I completely accept there is more that needs to

:04:47.:04:49.

be done but I believe we are making progress and there is a very clear

:04:50.:04:56.

commitment to continued to develop language skills. In addition the FCO

:04:57.:05:04.

will spend up to ?24,000,000 of the next four years to increase the

:05:05.:05:08.

presence of its counter terrorism and extremism experts overseas. The

:05:09.:05:15.

budget will allow us to focus on key foreign policy objectives including

:05:16.:05:17.

tagging Daesh and ensuring security in Europe. And it will allow us to

:05:18.:05:24.

do even more to prevent conflict and encourage stability in fragile

:05:25.:05:29.

states. My right and noble friend the Foreign Secretary made it clear

:05:30.:05:31.

that the department will need to become leaner and build on its core

:05:32.:05:36.

strengths, to reinvest and refocus reason was as new priorities, that

:05:37.:05:42.

is the reason for the review about which I have already spoken but that

:05:43.:05:46.

is also the purpose behind the creation of a new digital

:05:47.:05:50.

translation unit, the purpose of which is to ensure that FCO

:05:51.:05:56.

officials have access to the latest techniques in terms of using modern

:05:57.:06:01.

technology in their work. I would add that after a year at operation

:06:02.:06:04.

the diplomatic academy is already boosting proper policy capability

:06:05.:06:09.

and specialist skills. My honourable friend the Member for Reigate asked

:06:10.:06:16.

about the tech overhaul programme, we planned global deployment of this

:06:17.:06:22.

from 2016 through into 2018 and headline figure of 105,000,000 has

:06:23.:06:30.

been agreed by the FCO board. We believe the overhaul will provide

:06:31.:06:34.

greater speed, stability and reliability and partly by reducing

:06:35.:06:39.

the time that at present is lost because of the inadequacy of IT

:06:40.:06:43.

systems, will increase the product Liberty staff members as well. We

:06:44.:06:49.

are using our IT partner BAE Systems to deliver the tech overhaul to

:06:50.:06:53.

industry best practice standards. A number of honourable members asked

:06:54.:06:57.

about human rights. We have taken action to mainstream human rights

:06:58.:07:03.

across the FCO network. Human rights remains a priority for us but we

:07:04.:07:08.

believe this should not something that is ring fenced for just if you

:07:09.:07:16.

specialised staff but should be the responsibility of all British

:07:17.:07:21.

diplomats. More details of the approach is provided in the written

:07:22.:07:24.

evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee human rights inquiry to

:07:25.:07:29.

which my honourable and noble friend Baroness Ainley gave evidence on the

:07:30.:07:35.

24th of February. I thank him for giving way on that point. I have

:07:36.:07:40.

heard what he said about mainstreaming within the FCO but is

:07:41.:07:43.

he in a position to confirm whether he expects the number of people that

:07:44.:07:49.

I referred to earlier, 240 people working on human rights versus 2900

:07:50.:07:53.

working on prosperity, whether he expects that ratio to change

:07:54.:07:59.

significantly? The difficulty with providing numbers on that is that we

:08:00.:08:03.

will be talking about people, particularly people in posts but

:08:04.:08:06.

also desk officers in London who will spend part of their time on

:08:07.:08:10.

human rights and other parts of their time on prosperity and

:08:11.:08:14.

advancing British economic interests. I don't actually see a

:08:15.:08:20.

contradiction between the 2 because when I talk to British business

:08:21.:08:28.

about possible investment markets, 1 of the things they frequently say to

:08:29.:08:33.

me is that when they assess the country in terms of the investment

:08:34.:08:36.

opportunity, 1 of the criteria that they use is how good the rule of law

:08:37.:08:44.

is in that country, because from a business point of view they don't

:08:45.:08:47.

want to take the risk of putting money into a place and then finding

:08:48.:08:51.

that because of corruption that either their money or their license

:08:52.:08:59.

or permit is revoked at the behest of some political leader there. A

:09:00.:09:04.

country with a defective rule of law that is of the kind that will

:09:05.:09:08.

attract inward investment is not guaranteed but it is more likely

:09:09.:09:13.

also to be the sort of country that has genuinely independent courts and

:09:14.:09:16.

is going to respect the rights of the individuals as well. I think the

:09:17.:09:25.

2 do go together. In addition to resource allocation the FCO will

:09:26.:09:28.

provide a flat cash settlement of 98,000,000 of capital funding per

:09:29.:09:32.

year to invest in our estate. This will provide further investment

:09:33.:09:37.

across the estate to maintain our global network and to keep diplomats

:09:38.:09:40.

and other government staff safe while they are working for the UK

:09:41.:09:44.

abroad. Additional capital requirements beyond this will be

:09:45.:09:49.

funded from asset sales and recycling of receipts and were

:09:50.:09:54.

necessary through records to the reserve. I was asked about Whitehall

:09:55.:10:04.

funds. I can confirm that government spending on international priorities

:10:05.:10:09.

will increase further with a larger conflict and stability fund, new

:10:10.:10:12.

prosperity fund and more funding from the bridge Council and BBC

:10:13.:10:17.

World Service. The conflict stability and security fund through

:10:18.:10:20.

which the FCO funds much of its conflict prevention work will grow

:10:21.:10:27.

by 19% in real terms, by 2019, 22 a total of 1 1/2 billion every year.

:10:28.:10:32.

This will lengthen our ability to support stabilisation in countries

:10:33.:10:36.

like Syria, Ukraine, Somalia and Afghanistan. And will strengthen our

:10:37.:10:42.

response to serious transnational threats including extremism, serious

:10:43.:10:46.

and organised crime and illegal migration. In terms of the CSS set

:10:47.:10:54.

allocations for 2015, 16, 400,000,000 was allocated to ODA

:10:55.:11:01.

eligible countries and 633,000,000 to non- ODA countries. The new

:11:02.:11:08.

prosperity fund will be worth 1.3 billion over the next 5 years and

:11:09.:11:12.

will be used to support global growth, trade and stability. This

:11:13.:11:16.

will help us to reduce poverty in emerging and developing countries

:11:17.:11:20.

and also open up new markets and opportunities to the United Kingdom.

:11:21.:11:39.

Funding for the British Council will also be protected in real terms, but

:11:40.:11:48.

there will need to be a shift in the balance to support an expansion of

:11:49.:11:52.

the council's work in developing countries. In addition to this, the

:11:53.:11:57.

British Council will be able to bid for up to ?700 million in additional

:11:58.:12:02.

funding to improve links with emerging economies, help tackle

:12:03.:12:05.

extremism globally and support good governance. I was asked about the

:12:06.:12:12.

Department's human rights work through the Magna Carta fund and the

:12:13.:12:22.

balance between ODA and non-ODA countries. 1407I ODA countries and

:12:23.:12:37.

four are not, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Russia and Israel. I think there has

:12:38.:12:48.

been agreement across the House that a strong diplomatic service and

:12:49.:12:52.

worldwide network is essential for this country to maintain its

:12:53.:12:57.

position in the world. I believe the government's protecting Foreign and

:12:58.:13:03.

Commonwealth Office will ensure we are able to play a pivotal role,

:13:04.:13:08.

both bilaterally and through the membership of the many international

:13:09.:13:13.

and multinational organisations of which we are part to play a pivotal

:13:14.:13:19.

role in tackling the most important global challenges. I would simply

:13:20.:13:25.

say without straying too far from the subject matter that I agree

:13:26.:13:28.

completely with the point my honourable friend the member for

:13:29.:13:33.

Newbury may about how we could amplify the United Kingdom's

:13:34.:13:38.

diplomatic reach to our active membership of the European Union. I

:13:39.:13:42.

am confident the outcome of the spending review is not only good for

:13:43.:13:47.

the FCO and good for British diplomacy, but most important of all

:13:48.:13:51.

it is good for the interests of the people of the United Kingdom. I

:13:52.:14:01.

briefly thank honourable and right honourable members for taking part

:14:02.:14:06.

in this debate on the estimates on the committee's report. I did agree

:14:07.:14:11.

somewhat with the points that were made in the course of this debate

:14:12.:14:16.

that our ability to actually oversee the estimates properly as an

:14:17.:14:21.

institution is historically woeful and does need addressing. But I am

:14:22.:14:28.

grateful for the support of my honourable friend 's for Newbury,

:14:29.:14:34.

Basildon and Billericay. If I may pick up a point made by the

:14:35.:14:40.

honourable lady on diversity. It was addressed by the Minister. Clearly

:14:41.:14:48.

we will be better off if we have a service that can properly reflect

:14:49.:14:52.

the country in which we live, but one wants to be careful about trying

:14:53.:14:57.

to move from an organisation that does not reflect it and getting

:14:58.:15:02.

there in too much of a hurry because you might lose some of the talent

:15:03.:15:06.

and ability that is already sitting in that institution. There is an

:15:07.:15:11.

issue about the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and how it made

:15:12.:15:15.

that change. It goes across to appease about the budget that the

:15:16.:15:25.

office has. My right honourable friend in replying to this said it

:15:26.:15:30.

would not be appropriate to place in the public domain at this time the

:15:31.:15:35.

public expenditure letters. He will recognise a piece of yes Minister

:15:36.:15:39.

speak at the dispatch box as well as anyone else, given his experience,

:15:40.:15:44.

and he is inviting a blizzard of enquiries if we do not get that

:15:45.:15:50.

detail. There is a real need for more progress in language skills and

:15:51.:15:55.

he accepts that. But my concern is when he says the department must

:15:56.:16:01.

become leaner, this is a department that is already starving and cannot

:16:02.:16:05.

allocate its resources effectively. In relation to what he said about

:16:06.:16:09.

the allocation of the conflict, stability and security fund being

:16:10.:16:18.

60-40 in non-ODA countries, that illustrates the challenges that the

:16:19.:16:24.

FCO is facing and those are challenges the committee will

:16:25.:16:26.

continue to examine in the course of this Parliament. Order, order.

:16:27.:16:37.

Understanding order number 54, the question necessary to dispose of the

:16:38.:16:39.

motion stands over until 7pm tomorrow. We now come to the motion

:16:40.:16:50.

on supplementary estimate for the Home Office, the subject of debate

:16:51.:16:54.

being reformed of the police funding formula. To move. I beg to move. Mr

:16:55.:17:07.

Keith Vaz. Madame Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased that house has the

:17:08.:17:10.

opportunity to focus on the important issue of the police

:17:11.:17:15.

funding formula. I will set up a background Timeline before assessing

:17:16.:17:21.

where this process is today. The fundamental concern of the Home

:17:22.:17:26.

Affairs Select Committee is when is the new review going to start? I

:17:27.:17:30.

want to thank other members of the committee who have agreed

:17:31.:17:32.

unanimously to our report. The majority of peace forces, Chief

:17:33.:17:57.

constables, PCCs and members of Parliament welcomed the launch of

:17:58.:18:00.

the police funding formula review last year. The manner in which

:18:01.:18:05.

police funding is currently distributed is outdated, inefficient

:18:06.:18:11.

and not fit for purpose. I want to begin by commending the policing

:18:12.:18:17.

minister for taking on this challenge head on. However, Madame

:18:18.:18:23.

Deputy Speaker, his ambition, which is shared by the whole house, has

:18:24.:18:29.

not been matched by the process. When the Home Office launched a

:18:30.:18:33.

public consultation on the 21st of July 2015, it only allowed a period

:18:34.:18:41.

of weeks. After receiving an initial 1700 responses on the 28th of

:18:42.:18:49.

October 2015, the Home Office laid out their proposed refinements to

:18:50.:18:54.

the model. This second proposal was described as inadequate by amongst

:18:55.:18:59.

others Tony Hogg, the Devon and Cornwall police and crime

:19:00.:19:06.

Commissioner. It gave PCCs and chief constables just three weeks to

:19:07.:19:15.

respond. There are -- the refined model showed that 32 would increase

:19:16.:19:24.

their share, however the Chief constables and PCCs were puzzled as

:19:25.:19:28.

to how these sums of had been calculated. Eventually it took

:19:29.:19:34.

Andrew White, the chief executive in the office of the Devon and Cornwall

:19:35.:19:39.

PCC to purchase the original data and write to the Home Office on the

:19:40.:19:46.

2nd of November to inform the Home Office that it had used the wrong

:19:47.:19:52.

data in making their calculations. The whole police service and this

:19:53.:19:57.

has owes a debt of gratitude to Andrew White for his actions. In a

:19:58.:20:02.

letter from the permanent Secretary to me, he has since stated that this

:20:03.:20:09.

error occurred because officials got confused with similar filenames and

:20:10.:20:13.

therefore used the wrong set of data. When this error was

:20:14.:20:18.

discovered, the director-general of the crime and policing group at the

:20:19.:20:25.

Home Office admitted she did not understand the significance of the

:20:26.:20:29.

response that she was signing. I am not sure if that admission was to

:20:30.:20:35.

keep faith in the system or to question it further. Overnight

:20:36.:20:40.

police forces across the country had swung from being winners to losers

:20:41.:20:46.

and vice versa. Chief Constable Giles York from Sussex police said

:20:47.:20:50.

his force when from a ?10 million loss to a ?2 million gain. The

:20:51.:20:56.

Derbyshire chief constable said it went from a 20 million gain to a 7

:20:57.:21:03.

million loss. Chief Constable Simon Cole demonstrated Leicestershire

:21:04.:21:06.

Constabulary was set to lose 700,000 under the old system, but would now

:21:07.:21:13.

lose 2.4 million. Subsequently the speaker granted my urgent question

:21:14.:21:19.

on the 19th of November 2015, and this process was rightly suspended

:21:20.:21:24.

by the policing Minister. He again should be commended for coming to

:21:25.:21:29.

the dispatch box and for agreeing that the sums were wrong and the

:21:30.:21:34.

process had to be altered. I do not want to dwell any further on the

:21:35.:21:39.

history except to say, as the report says, that this was a shambolic end

:21:40.:21:45.

to a fully managed process which significantly damaged the

:21:46.:21:49.

relationship between the Home Office and its primary stakeholders the

:21:50.:21:55.

police. So presently police funding is being supposedly given by a

:21:56.:21:59.

formula which has not been operated for a number of years. That is a

:22:00.:22:06.

formula that is over a decade old, not based on the latest consensus

:22:07.:22:11.

data, but the previous census, impossible for police forces to

:22:12.:22:15.

calculate because much of the data is out of date and it does not take

:22:16.:22:20.

into account the modern nature of policing. Of course I will. I thank

:22:21.:22:29.

the honourable member. Having been on the Public Accounts Committee,

:22:30.:22:35.

would he agree the formula only reflects the demand of crime on the

:22:36.:22:38.

peas, but does not reflect many of the issues that they have to pick

:22:39.:22:49.

up? The shadow policing Minister is also absent. I am sure he will be

:22:50.:22:53.

coming in very soon to make up for lost time. On the first point I will

:22:54.:23:00.

be coming to that in my speech. He raises a very important issue on the

:23:01.:23:04.

capabilities of the police and the new demands that are being placed on

:23:05.:23:08.

21st century policing. The Derbyshire police chief said if the

:23:09.:23:14.

current formula was still valid, it would be reflecting a reality which

:23:15.:23:19.

was ten years old. He is also clear as many other chief constables are,

:23:20.:23:23.

that there remains a consensus we need to restart the process moving

:23:24.:23:29.

to a fairer funding model. Also a consensus that is reflected

:23:30.:23:33.

throughout the House. Since the publication of the grout report in

:23:34.:23:39.

2015, concerns have been raised that in real terms this represents a cut

:23:40.:23:44.

to grant levels of 1.4% and requires increases to the police element of

:23:45.:23:55.

the council tax precept. It is being raised in Cheshire, Northumbria,

:23:56.:23:59.

Humberside and Thames Valley, the area partly represented by the Prime

:24:00.:24:02.

Minister and the Home Secretary in this house. The West Yorkshire

:24:03.:24:08.

police estimate they have received a 3.2% cut in real terms even after

:24:09.:24:13.

the PCC agreed to the maximum precept increase. The committee

:24:14.:24:18.

published its report on the 11th of December. The government's response

:24:19.:24:23.

is known 19 days late. The first question to ask the Minister is when

:24:24.:24:31.

is the response going to come? Last Tuesday five police and crime

:24:32.:24:33.

commissioners gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee, including

:24:34.:24:39.

Adam Charles from Derbyshire, Sir Clive loader from Leicestershire,

:24:40.:24:43.

Katie born from Sussex and Jane Kennedy from Merseyside. It is clear

:24:44.:24:49.

that the police and crime commissioners had not been consulted

:24:50.:24:54.

on the new review. Ian Hopkins, the chief constable of Greater

:24:55.:24:59.

Manchester, says he wishes to work in a collaborative approach with the

:25:00.:25:03.

Home Office as do many PCCs and Chiefs. Given the concern based on

:25:04.:25:10.

before this debate by chief constables, it is also clear they

:25:11.:25:16.

have not been in consulted, though the minister alluded in the last

:25:17.:25:19.

debate only last Wednesday, when he indicated he had met a number of

:25:20.:25:25.

chief constables, I am sure he will enlighten us as to his further

:25:26.:25:28.

discussions when he answers this debate. Chief Constable Neil Rhodes

:25:29.:25:34.

and deputy chief constable Heather Roach informed me they had met the

:25:35.:25:40.

Minister last Wednesday, the 24th of February, to discuss the formula,

:25:41.:25:44.

and I hope he will tell us the outcome of the meeting. Can the

:25:45.:25:48.

Minister tell us about his engagement with police forces and

:25:49.:25:53.

his reassurance to them that he is taking this matter as seriously as

:25:54.:25:58.

he was when he last appeared before the House? One issue that needs to

:25:59.:26:03.

be clarified is the capability review which has been undertaken by

:26:04.:26:08.

the National chief constables' committee, under the leadership of

:26:09.:26:13.

Sara Thornton. If the Minister could advise the House as to how far these

:26:14.:26:18.

deliberations have reached, that will assist us in knowing something

:26:19.:26:20.

of the timetable he has in mind. It's concerning since the formula

:26:21.:26:31.

changes were abandoned last year, there have been no proposals to work

:26:32.:26:37.

on. Policing Minister wrote to me on the 1st of February with an update

:26:38.:26:41.

on formula arrangements but as I said, he hasn't given us a date as

:26:42.:26:48.

to when this review will commence. Police forces need to know what is

:26:49.:26:53.

going to happen. Iain Drysdale, the director of business services for

:26:54.:26:57.

Kent Police said continuing uncertainty is unhelpful and a

:26:58.:27:01.

transition to a new arrangement should be made as soon as possible.

:27:02.:27:07.

Following the glaring errors last year it is self-evident that the

:27:08.:27:12.

Home Office should redouble its effort to produce a fairer funding

:27:13.:27:15.

model, it's clear the funding review should be restarted as swiftly as

:27:16.:27:21.

possible. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know you be interested that Stephen

:27:22.:27:25.

Kavanagh, the Chief Constable of Essex Police, states any

:27:26.:27:27.

prevarication on behalf of the Home Office would hugely disappointing

:27:28.:27:33.

and regrettable. Many have argued that it would be wrong to change the

:27:34.:27:38.

formula in a period of austerity. On the contrary, austerity could have

:27:39.:27:44.

been a starting point for an informed reassessment of the formula

:27:45.:27:49.

in order to incentivise the police for reforms and deal with other

:27:50.:27:54.

inefficiencies. The flat rate production to all forces continue to

:27:55.:27:58.

penalised those who have already received less. However, following

:27:59.:28:02.

the Chancellor's announcement which the committee welcomed in the

:28:03.:28:06.

Comprehensive Spending Review on the 25th of them but, this is less of

:28:07.:28:13.

the concern, in fact, the Home Office has renewed opportunity to

:28:14.:28:19.

review the formula. The 3 key failings apart from the standard

:28:20.:28:23.

stake of confusing data file names was essentially process failures, to

:28:24.:28:28.

share it on that occasions at an early stage which meant beta errors

:28:29.:28:33.

went unnoticed until it was too late, to set our transitional

:28:34.:28:36.

arrangements at an early stage which meant that users were even more

:28:37.:28:39.

concerned about the potentially immediate damaging impact on the

:28:40.:28:44.

budget and to allow sufficient period for consultation, in

:28:45.:28:50.

particular with PCC is and Chief constables. Does the Minister except

:28:51.:28:54.

that these were serious failings and that there will be addressed in a

:28:55.:29:02.

future review process? I will. I am chair of the committee... The

:29:03.:29:07.

Minister accepted accountability in relation to the mistake but he was

:29:08.:29:15.

very much, sold a hospital pass to have to defend his position and the

:29:16.:29:19.

mistake was made at senior level in relation to the management of the

:29:20.:29:23.

process. We need reassurance this won't happen again and needs to be

:29:24.:29:26.

accountability in the management of the Home Office to make sure the

:29:27.:29:31.

catastrophic which wasn't picked up and communicated to ministers

:29:32.:29:35.

doesn't happen again. He is quite right and he made these points

:29:36.:29:38.

during the evidence sessions when we took evidence from various Chief

:29:39.:29:41.

Constable is and Police and Crime Commissioner is. It's absolutely

:29:42.:29:46.

vital that they should be proper accountability during this process

:29:47.:29:51.

and I will come onto we agreed on the committee, should be the best

:29:52.:29:56.

way forward. The Home Affairs Select Committee made a number of

:29:57.:29:59.

recommendations on factors which must be included in the new funding

:30:00.:30:04.

review. We must recognise policing has changed fundamentally over the

:30:05.:30:06.

last 10 years but funding has never adjusted to it. PCCsfrom South

:30:07.:30:18.

Wales, and West Yorkshire, are among those who identified the growing

:30:19.:30:22.

number of non- crime demand and police time. Almost all police

:30:23.:30:26.

forces can point to a range of modern demands of police time,

:30:27.:30:31.

including terrorism, cyber-crime, mortar and slavery and child expert.

:30:32.:30:36.

Committee also considered it inexplicable that diversity is not 1

:30:37.:30:41.

of the categories within the funding formula. The National lead for

:30:42.:30:50.

prevent highlights factors like acquired language skills,

:30:51.:30:52.

translation services and resources required in emerging communities and

:30:53.:30:58.

coming as I do... Madam Deputy Speaker... From Leicester... We also

:30:59.:31:00.

have the added word and perhaps, to the outcome of the match at 7:45

:31:01.:31:13.

PM today and the 10 other remaining matches. It's quite clear that the

:31:14.:31:20.

additional demands on policing in Leicester will be profound! Of

:31:21.:31:24.

course I give way. I think the honourable gentleman forgiving way.

:31:25.:31:28.

Would he not agree that Wales has its own specific policing needs? He

:31:29.:31:34.

mentioned diversity and language and language explicitly springs to mind

:31:35.:31:38.

and that the growing powers of the Welsh Assembly call out for policing

:31:39.:31:44.

to be devolved, particularly pertinent that the Secretary of

:31:45.:31:47.

State for Wales is committed to a thorough overhaul yesterday, I

:31:48.:31:51.

believe, to the draft will spill. The honourable lady is quite right

:31:52.:31:57.

and we make that point. Hush macro draft Wales Bill. The police must

:31:58.:32:08.

save what they are doing now and the government must save what they want

:32:09.:32:13.

to fund and of course, the situation in Wales requires special attention.

:32:14.:32:17.

The indicators proposed by the Home Office in determining funding failed

:32:18.:32:24.

to take into account many points raised in the report. And thus it

:32:25.:32:31.

misses 70 2 80% of police demand not linked to volume of crime. The Home

:32:32.:32:39.

Office needs to make clear what tasks 21st-century policing is

:32:40.:32:44.

expected to take on and then decide how much it is prepared to fund. Of

:32:45.:32:50.

course it is important that police forces should work in a

:32:51.:32:53.

collaborative way, indeed, government is working in a

:32:54.:32:57.

collaborative way. When the Minister came before the House in November to

:32:58.:33:02.

tell us that the police funding formula was being suspended he

:33:03.:33:06.

wasn't the Minister for the Fire Service is a government has decided

:33:07.:33:13.

to look across government and make sure it collaborates properly so if

:33:14.:33:16.

it can do so, so can local police forces. But if that happens, then it

:33:17.:33:22.

must be part of the funding review formula. 1 of the Kubrick and Asians

:33:23.:33:29.

made by the select committee was the appointment of an independent panel

:33:30.:33:34.

to assess the Home Office in formulating the revised proposals.

:33:35.:33:39.

It isn't because we don't trust Home Office officials to add up. But we

:33:40.:33:45.

do need a robust and defensible way of looking at this formula that

:33:46.:33:49.

needs to be independent and therefore, we went to the trouble of

:33:50.:33:55.

suggesting the kinds of organisations that should sit on the

:33:56.:34:00.

panel, the chartered Institute of Public Finance and accountancy, the

:34:01.:34:02.

College of policing, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Royal

:34:03.:34:07.

statistical Society, you will notice, Madam Deputy Speaker, an

:34:08.:34:12.

emphasis on those who can add and therefore can crunch statistics.

:34:13.:34:17.

There is an ongoing project between the London School of Economics and

:34:18.:34:22.

HMRC to provide a sound academic basis for identifying the underlying

:34:23.:34:27.

demands for police time. Let's use the expertise of our academic

:34:28.:34:32.

institutions... Such work particularly when led by an

:34:33.:34:35.

independent panel commit the Policing Minister's job even easier.

:34:36.:34:39.

This is the last time I will give way, I know other members want to

:34:40.:34:42.

speak. I am grateful to my honourable friend. Did he and his

:34:43.:34:49.

fellow committee members, when they were looking at the potential

:34:50.:34:53.

balance of the independent panel, consider experts on serious and

:34:54.:34:58.

organised crime? Because it would be important to understand any impact

:34:59.:35:01.

at Italy on the London police force of the pressures the matter under to

:35:02.:35:06.

continue the battle against serious and organised crime? Not just from

:35:07.:35:11.

the point of view of what happens in Harrow which is different to the

:35:12.:35:14.

point of view of what happens in Wandsworth, for example, but the

:35:15.:35:17.

issue is serious and organised crime is something that grow in the last

:35:18.:35:22.

10 years and he's right, it needs to be properly represented as part of

:35:23.:35:28.

this review. At this time, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Home Office has

:35:29.:35:31.

2 realistic options removing forward, they can spend the next 2

:35:32.:35:37.

years on a very long consultative detailed review and run accurate

:35:38.:35:40.

data against the formula, they could implement the formula changes are

:35:41.:35:46.

proposed last year after a further period of consultation or they can

:35:47.:35:50.

go to an independent method of checking on what is in the best

:35:51.:35:55.

interests of local police forces. Of course there will always be winners

:35:56.:35:58.

and losers from this process, there will be police constables and Police

:35:59.:36:02.

and Crime Commissioner is with different voices. But to leave the

:36:03.:36:08.

situation in limbo as it is at the moment, is in the view of the

:36:09.:36:12.

committee, unacceptable. Doing nothing is not really an option. And

:36:13.:36:17.

it is not an issue that can be part until say 2019, which,

:36:18.:36:21.

unfortunately, or some of the rumours that are emerging in the

:36:22.:36:24.

press weather from the Foreign Office elsewhere. This time, I hope

:36:25.:36:29.

the Minister is going to have all the information before we proceed, I

:36:30.:36:34.

hope he will have to hand the capability report which has been

:36:35.:36:38.

prepared by the police chiefs because their involvement is

:36:39.:36:40.

absolutely critical because I would not like the review to start and

:36:41.:36:46.

then stop because there is going to be another review. But we do want

:36:47.:36:50.

this process started as soon as this process started as soon as

:36:51.:36:53.

possible. From our point of view, the sooner the better and we do want

:36:54.:36:57.

to make sure that everybody in the policing family is properly

:36:58.:37:03.

consulted so we get no repetition of what has happened in the past. The

:37:04.:37:10.

question is as on the order paper. Richard Drax. Madam Deputy Speaker

:37:11.:37:16.

it's a pleasure to take part in this debate and to follow the honourable

:37:17.:37:20.

member for Leicester East who always speaks in a measured and reasonable

:37:21.:37:23.

way and I agree with much of what he said. I am most grateful and I think

:37:24.:37:29.

before I start my speech, to Dorset Police, they or police force which

:37:30.:37:34.

affect me personally in my constituency and I would like to put

:37:35.:37:38.

on record as I always do, my thanks and gratitude and admiration for the

:37:39.:37:43.

men and women who patrol the streets day and night and keep us safe in

:37:44.:37:48.

our homes and on those streets. It's not until you read or hear about

:37:49.:37:55.

some of the appalling incidents that are police officers have to attend,

:37:56.:37:59.

often with little protection, frankly, they are not armed, and I'd

:38:00.:38:05.

pay credit to the female officers who are not the same size as their

:38:06.:38:10.

gentlemens colleagues and I have seen and heard them go in, fearless,

:38:11.:38:15.

to look after us without any thought for their own safety and I pay

:38:16.:38:18.

tribute to all the police officers in the country and in particular, to

:38:19.:38:24.

Dorset where my constituency is based. I am most grateful, Madam

:38:25.:38:31.

Deputy Speaker, to the doors of Police and Crime Commissioner Martyn

:38:32.:38:34.

Underhill who I know the Minister knows well and has worked with and

:38:35.:38:37.

corresponded with and I believe they have a good relationship which is

:38:38.:38:43.

excellent news for Dorset Police. They have currently furnished me

:38:44.:38:46.

with most of the fact I am about to divorce. Dorset has languished at

:38:47.:38:52.

the bottom of the police funding table for many, many years now.

:38:53.:38:57.

Heavily disadvantaged by the current police allocation formula which

:38:58.:39:02.

evolved in turn from the old standard spending assessment. In

:39:03.:39:07.

last year's discussions, the Minister described the current

:39:08.:39:13.

formula and I quote... Complex, Paik and out of date, he was absolutely

:39:14.:39:20.

correct. -- OPEC. It remains effectively unchecked. Even with a

:39:21.:39:23.

review as has already been mentioned in 2009 slashed 10, nothing has been

:39:24.:39:30.

implemented so Dorset Police remains at the bottom of the pile, a

:39:31.:39:35.

situation that cannot and must not be allowed to continue, Madam Deputy

:39:36.:39:39.

Speaker. The current allocation formula is based on four criteria.

:39:40.:39:48.

1st, a central allocation, 2nd, a needs -based allocation, 3rd, a

:39:49.:39:55.

relative resources adjustment, 4th the formula damping. That is not

:39:56.:40:02.

anything to do with children or changing nappies... But can I just

:40:03.:40:08.

say, literary wording of these criteria are conjugated enough.

:40:09.:40:14.

Obviously, the Minister looking at the formula, I hope, makes it

:40:15.:40:20.

simpler. -- complicated enough. For us and Dorset this is the worst of

:40:21.:40:25.

all possible worlds. Firstly, the central allocation is historically

:40:26.:40:29.

the lowest in the country. Secondly, the needs -based allocation fails to

:40:30.:40:34.

take into account many of the issues particular to a seaside county. Not

:40:35.:40:40.

least, tourism. Upon which so much relies. 3rd, a relative resources

:40:41.:40:47.

adjustment enables us to crawl from bottom to 3rd from bottom, then the

:40:48.:40:55.

precept is added in. But the current methodology for the art or egg, the

:40:56.:40:59.

relative resources adjustment, is based per head of population. For as

:41:00.:41:05.

council tax from which the precept is raised, is levied per household,

:41:06.:41:11.

Madam Deputy Speaker. Let's not forget the precept is limited to 2%.

:41:12.:41:17.

Before a local referendum is triggered. Fourthly, despite the

:41:18.:41:23.

formula being changed in 2010, and the effect of that never being

:41:24.:41:29.

implemented, Dorset Police are still losing out to the tune of ?1.9

:41:30.:41:37.

million annually. Which it's never received. Year after year, ?1.9

:41:38.:41:41.

million. I know the Minister who is listening

:41:42.:42:00.

to my speech will know that ?1.9 million is a lot of money for the

:42:01.:42:03.

police in Dorset who are trying to do their job. So whilst we welcome

:42:04.:42:11.

the commitment to protect policing in real terms, an announcement that

:42:12.:42:15.

was greeted by police chiefs and police and crime commissioners

:42:16.:42:19.

across the country, further savings still have to be made. Worryingly

:42:20.:42:26.

when the aggregate grant amounts were finalised by the Minister on

:42:27.:42:31.

the 4th of February, which assumed the maximum precept available,

:42:32.:42:37.

Dorset was 0.6% worse off when compared with the damp and figures

:42:38.:42:44.

for 2015 and 2016. It is also critical that after last year's

:42:45.:42:49.

consultation a glitch in the data that has meant any change to the

:42:50.:42:55.

funding formula will be delayed for another year. Hopefully we will hear

:42:56.:43:02.

more from the Minister as to where we stand in a future formula when he

:43:03.:43:05.

sums up in the end. What I would like to do if I make is to put

:43:06.:43:13.

Dorset's case to the Minister. It is particularly disadvantaged by the

:43:14.:43:16.

current funding formula that the funding is based on. Tourism is

:43:17.:43:24.

critical to a county like Dorset, but it has been ignored when

:43:25.:43:29.

assessing funding. Like our strategic partners in Devon and

:43:30.:43:34.

Cornwall we all find our beautiful surroundings can be a burden as well

:43:35.:43:39.

as a blessing, Madame Deputy Speaker. The current needs -based

:43:40.:43:43.

element underestimates the pressures that the sheer number of tourists

:43:44.:43:49.

place on police. The county's population of 1.1 million rises

:43:50.:43:53.

considerably during the summer months. Visitors stay over 14.5

:43:54.:44:02.

million knights and day-trippers make 26.3 million outings to Dorset

:44:03.:44:11.

every year. This influx is not accounted for. Nor is the nature of

:44:12.:44:16.

the county which is divided into two, the urban park to the east and

:44:17.:44:21.

the rural to the West. Policing in Dorset costs more in time, resources

:44:22.:44:28.

and even fuel, Madame Deputy Speaker. The formula takes no

:44:29.:44:37.

account of this, neither does it cater for the high concentration of

:44:38.:44:43.

bars and clubs in places like Bournemouth. However, if you look at

:44:44.:44:48.

the number of buyers and clubs spread across the county as a whole,

:44:49.:44:54.

the impact on policing as far as the formula is concerned is reduced

:44:55.:45:06.

considerably. Any formula would severely disadvantage our police and

:45:07.:45:13.

it should include density as well. The nature of crime must also be

:45:14.:45:21.

taken into account. Terrorism, cyber crime, people trafficking, sexual

:45:22.:45:25.

abuse and protecting the vulnerable are all more prevalent than they

:45:26.:45:29.

were and consume large resources. They apply to rural Dorset just as

:45:30.:45:37.

much as any other police area. Can I make four suggestions to the

:45:38.:45:43.

Minister that any new funding formula can follow, these simple

:45:44.:45:51.

principles. The first, it should be stable from year to year avoiding

:45:52.:45:56.

any fluctuations. Secondly, it should be made up of multi-year

:45:57.:46:01.

settlements to allow certainty. Thirdly it should be transparent and

:46:02.:46:06.

easy to understand and easier than the current one. Any changes should

:46:07.:46:09.

be phased in making the transition smoother. Lastly, can we get rid of

:46:10.:46:17.

the hangover from the local authority days when labour costs

:46:18.:46:22.

were taken into account. Today with the existing national pay scales

:46:23.:46:25.

across police forces, there should be no difference in labour costs

:46:26.:46:31.

except for in London. A case in point is where Dorset currently

:46:32.:46:37.

receives nothing, but across the border in Hampshire they get an

:46:38.:46:43.

extra 4.6%. This simply cannot be right, Madame Deputy Speaker. To sum

:46:44.:46:48.

up I must ask the Minister that any new formula must please from Dorset

:46:49.:46:57.

police's perspective and from all my constituents and from constituents

:46:58.:47:03.

of other honourable members of this house, the more equitable. We are

:47:04.:47:09.

not asking for all the cake, Madame Deputy Speaker, just a fair slice.

:47:10.:47:14.

Dorset police do an outstanding job and both they and the residents they

:47:15.:47:19.

so ably served need to know that all relevant factors have been taken

:47:20.:47:25.

into account when a new formula is announced. Finally, before I sit

:47:26.:47:32.

down, and I believe I am the only speaker on this side of the House

:47:33.:47:37.

and have the great privilege of listening to the members of the

:47:38.:47:42.

opposition, I maintain my remark at her side who are listening to my

:47:43.:47:46.

every word and tell them with great assurance that they can probably

:47:47.:47:52.

relax for the next hour or two. The reason being is that speeches made

:47:53.:48:00.

in the opposition's debate on police funding on opposition day is likely

:48:01.:48:07.

to be repeated. Can I tell you why? I have a message here to all Labour

:48:08.:48:18.

MPs from the Shadow Home Secretary speaker and he says, as you have

:48:19.:48:23.

already been a great help in contributing to our debates, would

:48:24.:48:27.

you be so kind as to show your support once again? There will be no

:48:28.:48:36.

need to write a whole new speech as you can use previous speaking notes.

:48:37.:48:42.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I should sit down and reassure Hansard they can

:48:43.:48:46.

relax, have a cup of tea and listen to the debate knowing that what is

:48:47.:48:50.

about to be heard may have already been said. Mr Gareth Thomas. It is a

:48:51.:49:05.

pleasure to follow the honourable member for South Dorset. I have

:49:06.:49:10.

always enjoyed campaigning for the Labour Party in South Dorset and I

:49:11.:49:16.

very much support the idea that the next police funding formula should

:49:17.:49:19.

be partly based on the number of bars and clubs in an area. On that

:49:20.:49:26.

basis I think London would see a substantial increase in its funding

:49:27.:49:33.

formula. But perhaps as I have started off on a consensual basis, I

:49:34.:49:38.

might invite the honourable member for South Dorset to agree that the

:49:39.:49:43.

number of major events taking place in a police force's area ought to be

:49:44.:49:49.

taken into account in the funding formula as well. I speak as someone

:49:50.:49:56.

who has Wembley Stadium very close to his constituency, which always

:49:57.:50:00.

attracts and needs a substantial police presence to ensure that it is

:50:01.:50:08.

properly and effectively policed. I very much enjoyed the speech from

:50:09.:50:13.

our honourable friend, the chair of the Select Committee, the right

:50:14.:50:16.

honourable member for Leicester. The detail of the worked that his Select

:50:17.:50:25.

Committee has been set out. The most worrying part of his speech was the

:50:26.:50:31.

suggestion that reports are indicating that there is going to be

:50:32.:50:36.

no detailed clarity for police forces in terms of this funding

:50:37.:50:40.

formula going forward until 2019. I very much hope that the minister in

:50:41.:50:50.

his remarks will be able to set the Select Committee's concern at rest.

:50:51.:50:56.

At the moment there appears to be no sense of clarity for the

:50:57.:51:00.

Metropolitan police as to what their funding is set to be for the rest of

:51:01.:51:06.

the Parliament from 2017 onwards. As my intervention on the honourable

:51:07.:51:13.

member for Leicester South indicated, Leicester East I beg your

:51:14.:51:20.

pardon, there is huge concern in London given the role of the

:51:21.:51:25.

Metropolitan police in tackling serious and organised crime, given

:51:26.:51:28.

its importance in the fight against cyber crime, and the whole house

:51:29.:51:31.

knows how increasingly important that is, and indeed the sense that

:51:32.:51:39.

rising crime in London is also putting substantial pressure on the

:51:40.:51:45.

police resources that we do have available to us at the moment. Some

:51:46.:51:52.

in the House will have seen that you were appalled just two weeks ago

:51:53.:51:58.

published a major report on the scale of illegal activity by

:51:59.:52:05.

organised criminal gangs across Europe and beyond in terms of people

:52:06.:52:12.

trafficking. One of the centres they identified for people trafficking,

:52:13.:52:14.

both trafficking people into, but also centres where operations are

:52:15.:52:19.

managed by these criminal gangs, is London. Again I re-emphasise the

:52:20.:52:25.

significance of the point that London needs to have through the

:52:26.:52:30.

Metropolitan police as much resource as is possible to tackle and bear

:52:31.:52:39.

down on serious and organised crime. That is in particular if we want to

:52:40.:52:44.

tackle illegal immigration and other forms of organised crime going

:52:45.:52:48.

forward. All honourable members will be only too aware of the terrorist

:52:49.:52:55.

threat that we face and London in particular I would suggest faces a

:52:56.:53:00.

particular challenge in terms of counterterrorism. I do hope the

:53:01.:53:04.

Minister will funding formula does take account of

:53:05.:53:13.

the particular threat that is in London. On that point is a former

:53:14.:53:19.

serviceman, we watched the atrocity in Paris and the police already arms

:53:20.:53:24.

were expected to enter a building immediately. There was no time to

:53:25.:53:30.

hang around and rescue people. Do we have sufficient funding and training

:53:31.:53:34.

facilities to ensure that those who do find themselves, God forbid, in

:53:35.:53:40.

such a situation are equipped to enter that building immediately? It

:53:41.:53:45.

cost an awful lot more money to meet that level of expertise. The

:53:46.:53:49.

honourable gentleman makes a very important point. I think we need to

:53:50.:53:56.

make sure that police forces are working collaboratively to make sure

:53:57.:54:01.

there are enough trained individuals. The Metropolitan police

:54:02.:54:08.

has particular expertise in this regard to share in the training

:54:09.:54:11.

facility at Hendon that the Metropolitan police force runs and

:54:12.:54:17.

continues to turn out some extremely highly trained and effective police

:54:18.:54:21.

officers who work for the Met and also elsewhere as well. The

:54:22.:54:27.

honourable gentleman is absolutely right that the attacks in Paris last

:54:28.:54:32.

year brought into stark relief the threat in terms of terrorism that we

:54:33.:54:36.

all face here in the UK. I would suggest that London in particular

:54:37.:54:43.

places that going forward. The ongoing challenges for the

:54:44.:54:48.

Metropolitan police are that crime is rising again, recorded crime is

:54:49.:54:54.

up 5% in the last 12 months. Violent crime in London is up 22%. The

:54:55.:55:00.

Metropolitan police are operating in the context of 1600 police officers

:55:01.:55:09.

posts to having gone since 2010 and almost 6000 community support

:55:10.:55:14.

officers' posts being axed in the last five years. In my constituency

:55:15.:55:21.

in that period 137 police officers, sergeants and police and community

:55:22.:55:26.

support Officer positions have been axed in that period. We were used to

:55:27.:55:32.

neighbourhood policing of a sergeant, three or four police

:55:33.:55:37.

constables and three or four police and community support officers. Now

:55:38.:55:42.

we are reduced to one PC if we are lucky and one PCO if we are very

:55:43.:55:49.

lucky as well. What has more recently been revealed is the

:55:50.:55:55.

substantial pressure on the Met leading to more and more police

:55:56.:55:58.

officers from the suburbs, in particular from Harrow, having to be

:55:59.:56:04.

taken out of the borough of Harrow where they would normally do their

:56:05.:56:10.

policing work and being used to police major events or indeed

:56:11.:56:14.

respond to rising crime in inner London. In the last 12 months on

:56:15.:56:23.

occasion 22% of police officer time in Harrow has been abstracted to

:56:24.:56:33.

other boroughs. That is 22% of the time Harrow police officers have

:56:34.:56:38.

worked has been spent not policing the streets of Harrow, but instead

:56:39.:56:40.

policing other streets in London. The Minister may argue that some

:56:41.:56:54.

operational decision for police chiefs but it's an operational issue

:56:55.:56:58.

which is being driven by a shortage of resources that Sir Bernard

:56:59.:57:03.

Hogan-Howe has at his disposal. Harrow, yes it's 1 of the safest or

:57:04.:57:09.

in London but there are still significant problems in terms of

:57:10.:57:13.

crime, fear of crime, significant problems in terms of anti-social

:57:14.:57:17.

behaviour. My constituents and other constituents in Harrow want to be

:57:18.:57:21.

able to know that our police officers are policing our streets

:57:22.:57:25.

instead of policing streets elsewhere in London. What is

:57:26.:57:31.

particularly concerning my constituents such that I have felt

:57:32.:57:37.

that I need to intervene in this debate, is that there is a proposal

:57:38.:57:43.

to merge the police forces in Harrow with the police force in Barnet and

:57:44.:57:50.

in Brent to create a tribe or a command to act 2 out of the 3

:57:51.:57:58.

borough commanders in the area and create just 1 borough commander for

:57:59.:58:05.

the 3 areas. Brent has a higher crime problem than Harrow and has

:58:06.:58:13.

the particular challenge of managing events at Wembley. Barnett, a very

:58:14.:58:22.

different set of challenges and again, a slightly higher crime area

:58:23.:58:26.

but my constituents fear, quite rightly, it seems to me, Harrow

:58:27.:58:30.

police, if there is a tribe are commander, will be more easily

:58:31.:58:37.

deployed into Brent or Barnett away from Harrow and given the lack of

:58:38.:58:50.

investment that there has been, my constituents fear that if a tribe

:58:51.:58:55.

are command goes ahead there will be a question over the future of Harrow

:58:56.:59:03.

police station going forward. I ask that the Minister, if he doesn't

:59:04.:59:09.

feel he can intervene to give reassurance to my constituents in

:59:10.:59:13.

the debate today, and I recognise his reluctance to do that, I ask him

:59:14.:59:19.

to have a quiet word with Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe to encourage him

:59:20.:59:30.

to drop this plan for a tri-borough command. Instead of us having to

:59:31.:59:41.

share at with the other birds and that point, I welcome the select

:59:42.:59:45.

committee report and I look forward to the Minister and his response. Mr

:59:46.:59:54.

James Berry. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome this report and I

:59:55.:00:00.

start by saying the Minister was brave to tackle the issue of police

:00:01.:00:05.

funding, brave for 2 reasons, firstly, it's always going to be

:00:06.:00:10.

difficult to resolve a funding formula without acrimony unless you

:00:11.:00:14.

have at your disposal, sufficient funds to fund every force to the

:00:15.:00:18.

level of the best funded and clearly the Minister was not going to have

:00:19.:00:23.

those available to him and secondly, funding a police force across the

:00:24.:00:27.

United Kingdom, or certainly in England and Wales, with the great

:00:28.:00:33.

diversity in policing needs across the county of those countries, is

:00:34.:00:35.

always going to be intensely difficult. But it's right that

:00:36.:00:42.

taxpayer funds for an essential service such as the police are

:00:43.:00:45.

allocated in a fair and transparent way. I agree with my right

:00:46.:00:52.

honourable friend the Member for Leicester East and determine of our

:00:53.:00:56.

Select Committee, that the police need to provide evidence of the work

:00:57.:01:02.

they actually do and often, but will be work well beyond what we

:01:03.:01:06.

understand to be traditional policing work within the office of

:01:07.:01:10.

Constable. Police pick-up a large amount of slack, that is not picked

:01:11.:01:15.

up by other public services or private sector organisations and

:01:16.:01:19.

they do a huge amount more than I think many people appreciate and the

:01:20.:01:24.

National Audit Office, in fact, published a report finding that a

:01:25.:01:29.

significant number of police forces are not actually aware of the demand

:01:30.:01:33.

on their own services so it's incumbent on police forces to be

:01:34.:01:37.

aware of the demand services from classic policing, not quite yet...

:01:38.:01:43.

From classic policing functions and wider functions that they make those

:01:44.:01:49.

demands clear to the Home Office and then, the Home Office, as the

:01:50.:01:54.

honourable member for Leicester East said, that the Home Office makes it

:01:55.:01:57.

clear to those police force is what functions they actually funded to

:01:58.:02:04.

perform. The pause in this funding formula review... I will. I am very

:02:05.:02:14.

grateful to the honourable gentleman forgiving weight but does he also

:02:15.:02:19.

recognise that cuts that are being made another public services and I

:02:20.:02:24.

look at dental health for example, access to beds, is actually putting

:02:25.:02:28.

pressure on police forces up and down this country in terms of having

:02:29.:02:34.

to in the extreme circumstances, use cells for housing people with mental

:02:35.:02:39.

health problems? I thank the honourable member for the

:02:40.:02:41.

intervention and there is more mental health funding in front line

:02:42.:02:49.

but using the net has been in the past and it's important police work

:02:50.:02:52.

in tandem with clinical commissioning groups to make sure

:02:53.:02:56.

with the police force to make sure with the police force to make sure

:02:57.:03:00.

they can tackle mental health issues rather than bringing those people

:03:01.:03:04.

into police cells which is often the very worst place for someone

:03:05.:03:08.

suffering a mental health episode to be and they can be directed

:03:09.:03:11.

elsewhere and I know in my neighbouring borough of Richmond

:03:12.:03:14.

police are already doing that in conjunction with the clinical

:03:15.:03:18.

commissioning group. The pause in this review of the funding formula

:03:19.:03:23.

was arrived at the cause of the financial implications that 1 Police

:03:24.:03:28.

and Crime Commissioner was able to work out. Despite that background, I

:03:29.:03:34.

query and paused before signing up to the suggestion in the report that

:03:35.:03:38.

the figures should be revealed or the likely figures should be

:03:39.:03:42.

revealed because and before the end of the consultation because if the

:03:43.:03:47.

aim is to arrive at the sound set of principles, it is difficult to

:03:48.:03:49.

obtain a balanced response from people who stand to lose out from an

:03:50.:03:54.

allocation based on a principle, however sounded maybe, because of

:03:55.:04:00.

their elected responsibility as a Police and Crime Commissioner is to

:04:01.:04:02.

maximise the amount of funding available to them. It needs to

:04:03.:04:11.

recognise the diversity of policing that we have in the UK and that is

:04:12.:04:15.

free difficult when you are trying to reach a formula at a national

:04:16.:04:20.

level. I'll report references the need for additional funding in areas

:04:21.:04:27.

where policing of minority communities is a prevalent issue,

:04:28.:04:31.

Kingston, my constituency, we have the largest Korean community in

:04:32.:04:35.

Europe, an excellent Korean liaison officer provided by the police,

:04:36.:04:42.

someone who performs a vital function in ensuring a link between

:04:43.:04:47.

the police and the Korean community. There are many other issues in

:04:48.:04:52.

London as the Member for Harrow West made clear, that provide a positive

:04:53.:04:58.

case for ensuring the capital ground in London is protected and the

:04:59.:05:02.

special position of the Metropolitan Police and its forces is respected.

:05:03.:05:10.

The issue of diverse communities raised by the Member for Leicester

:05:11.:05:15.

East, the issue of policing pubs and bars, raised by the Member for

:05:16.:05:19.

Dorset South, that is plainly volume policing, you need more police

:05:20.:05:25.

officers out at kicking out time, we have more of them in London than

:05:26.:05:29.

anywhere else in the country, so too is the threat of terrorism, a threat

:05:30.:05:33.

which is most significant in London and I am pleased that the

:05:34.:05:37.

Metropolitan Police has responded to that in light of the Paris

:05:38.:05:40.

atrocities by a significant increase in the number of armed response

:05:41.:05:43.

vehicles and armed officers keeping us safe. So too are the number and

:05:44.:05:50.

various types of crime tackled centrally on behalf of other police

:05:51.:05:54.

forces and they give the example of online fraud, something we have seen

:05:55.:05:59.

a massive explosion in in the last for 5 years and whilst much more

:06:00.:06:03.

needs to be done for funding needs to be done to deal with this

:06:04.:06:08.

comprehensively, it's tackled in large part by the Metropolitan

:06:09.:06:16.

Police impressive Operation Fall Can, crime perpetrated across the

:06:17.:06:20.

country that is largely dealt with by the police. -- operation Falcon.

:06:21.:06:27.

There is a need to protect the special status of London in any new

:06:28.:06:33.

funding formula. Where I depart from the comment made by the Member for

:06:34.:06:39.

Harrow West, when he paints a rather less than rosy picture of the status

:06:40.:06:43.

of policing in London, whilst yes, there has been a reduction in

:06:44.:06:46.

officer numbers, the fact that a less rigid approach to neighbourhood

:06:47.:06:53.

policing, which works well in my borough of Kingston and elsewhere

:06:54.:06:57.

across London, crime has dropped dramatically over the last 5 years

:06:58.:07:01.

and we have the police to be doubtful for that, even if they have

:07:02.:07:06.

fewer in overall numbers, they have a significantly large proportion on

:07:07.:07:09.

the front line who do a fantastic job resulting in a massive reduction

:07:10.:07:15.

in crime. I will give way. I am grateful to the honourable member

:07:16.:07:19.

forgiving way. Can I encourage him to oppose the merger of borough

:07:20.:07:25.

command units as well? If they succeed with Harrow, Brent and

:07:26.:07:29.

Barnett, I would have thought, Kingston, Sutton, a merger might be

:07:30.:07:32.

next, does he agree with me that this is a step too far and that the

:07:33.:07:37.

police minister might usefully intervene with the Metropolitan

:07:38.:07:41.

Police Commissioner to this effect? I thank the honourable member for

:07:42.:07:45.

his intervention, I know locally there will be mixed feelings about

:07:46.:07:50.

this proposed in south-west London but what I know is because of the

:07:51.:07:54.

reforms that this government has brought another previous government

:07:55.:07:56.

brought in, these matters are entirely within the hands of the

:07:57.:08:01.

local police body which in the case of London is not packed, rather than

:08:02.:08:04.

the Policing Minister, it's an operational matter for the

:08:05.:08:10.

Metropolitan Commissioner, I haven't seen the proposals yet but I want to

:08:11.:08:13.

be reassured there is no less democratic accountability and no

:08:14.:08:18.

less focus on local policing of that was something going to happen in

:08:19.:08:21.

Kingston but I wait to see the proposals. I'm sure London MPs will

:08:22.:08:27.

have something to say if and when they are published by The Met

:08:28.:08:32.

police. The report that the committee has produced records and

:08:33.:08:36.

unhappy period for the Home Office, 1 for which the Minister came to

:08:37.:08:39.

this hasn't apologised unreservedly and he recognised doing so in the

:08:40.:08:45.

report and I'm sure the Minister is committed to putting right. The

:08:46.:08:49.

government is to be commended attempting to create a fairer

:08:50.:08:53.

funding formula, that is something that is recognised the report,

:08:54.:08:55.

something that previous governments had not tried to do. The terms of

:08:56.:09:02.

that funding formula yet to be decided and it's no easy task, I

:09:03.:09:06.

certainly do not envy the Minister in his task and at such a tricky

:09:07.:09:10.

task that both the Shadow Home Secretary and shadow Policing

:09:11.:09:13.

Minister cannot be here for this important debate, no doubt they are

:09:14.:09:16.

scratching their heads and working out what the alternative funding

:09:17.:09:19.

formula would be but I welcome this report from the Home Affairs

:09:20.:09:22.

Committee which I was pleased to have participated in, I'm sure the

:09:23.:09:26.

Minister will give it the sole consideration in deciding the

:09:27.:09:30.

eventual outcome and I am sure why is there will be someone is and

:09:31.:09:33.

losers the public will be able to see that the funding formula the

:09:34.:09:36.

Minister arrives at as 1 which is fair to all forces and hopefully

:09:37.:09:39.

protects London with a special and vital function of the Metropolitan

:09:40.:09:45.

and City of London Police perform to keep us safe. Thank you. I am

:09:46.:09:52.

extremely grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker for the opportunity to speak

:09:53.:09:55.

on this important debate and it isn't lost on me that it's quite a

:09:56.:10:00.

self select group of members of Parliament who turned out today, all

:10:01.:10:04.

of which will probably try and follow a similar formula saying the

:10:05.:10:08.

formula itself does not respond well to the challenges of their own

:10:09.:10:13.

communities. The humility of the nature of the speeches should not

:10:14.:10:16.

necessarily detract from the veracity of their argument. For

:10:17.:10:24.

clearly, across this has, many of us have real, deep concerns about our

:10:25.:10:27.

own police forces and how they are treated under the current regime,

:10:28.:10:30.

there are winners and losers and there I said, there are more losers

:10:31.:10:37.

than usual. I will be no different to anyone else. For me, the acid

:10:38.:10:41.

test of whether a fairer funding formula is truly fair is in the

:10:42.:10:47.

realm of Bedfordshire. Madam Deputy Speaker we have lost 171 officers

:10:48.:10:53.

since 2010 and the number of police and community support officers has

:10:54.:11:00.

halved from 108 down to 53 in that period. In my own community in

:11:01.:11:05.

Luton, we face all sorts of challenges, the practical effect of

:11:06.:11:08.

that is that neighbourhood policing... In 2012, we had PCs

:11:09.:11:16.

working alongside PCSOs, proper neighbourhood policing, true of many

:11:17.:11:23.

parts of the county. The old police authority, looking at the scale of

:11:24.:11:26.

cuts coming through, proposed to remove them and also to cut PCSOs

:11:27.:11:32.

from the Police and Crime Commissioner was elected in 2012, he

:11:33.:11:37.

put a halt to the process and protected numbers. But with

:11:38.:11:38.

?20,000,000 worth of The impact in Luton is no different

:11:39.:11:57.

to the rest of the county. We have had no choice but to strip

:11:58.:12:00.

everything back to the barest minimum because the alternative is

:12:01.:12:07.

worse. By current projections we need to find ?11 million worth of

:12:08.:12:11.

savings and this may mean reducing the establishment by 44 in the next

:12:12.:12:19.

three years. The chief constable has estimated Bedfordshire needs another

:12:20.:12:24.

300 officers to even reach the average number of police forces in

:12:25.:12:31.

the country. Why? Because we are in a county with the fourth highest gun

:12:32.:12:38.

crime, the fifth highest serious acquisitive crime and the seventh

:12:39.:12:42.

highest knife crime in the country, but we get by on just 169 officers

:12:43.:12:51.

per 100,000 of population. The average is 232 across all forces,

:12:52.:12:56.

rural and urban, and the Metropolitan police has some 388

:12:57.:13:02.

officers per 100,000. In simple terms, because it is easy to get

:13:03.:13:07.

lost in the numbers, the residence Inn Luton I represent are treated as

:13:08.:13:13.

though they were 20 minutes down the train line in North London could

:13:14.:13:26.

expect an additional 482 officers. That is the gap. Would he like to

:13:27.:13:32.

echo the fact that this demand for policing in Luton is not just

:13:33.:13:37.

restricted to the people of Luton, it is felt by the rest of the people

:13:38.:13:41.

in Bedfordshire, including in my town in Bedford. Bedfordshire is not

:13:42.:13:46.

large enough for the rest of the county to chip in for these

:13:47.:13:53.

additional requirements in Luton. Would he emphasised in his speech to

:13:54.:13:57.

the Minister that this is not a partisan view about the funding for

:13:58.:14:02.

Bedfordshire police, this is a cross-party group about the specific

:14:03.:14:04.

needs of Bedfordshire police in the future. I am grateful for taking the

:14:05.:14:10.

intervention because he makes an excellent point, a point he has made

:14:11.:14:14.

alongside me and the four other MPs in Bedfordshire, both conservative

:14:15.:14:20.

and Labour, to the policing minister. He has given us an

:14:21.:14:23.

audience in the past and I hope he will do so in the future. We are

:14:24.:14:29.

essentially an urban force, but we are funded as a rule or one because

:14:30.:14:35.

of the nature of Luton in particular, but also in Bedford and

:14:36.:14:39.

some smaller areas in the county. There is a huge disparity between

:14:40.:14:43.

the levels of crime and it is a point I will continue to make. This

:14:44.:14:47.

is not a dry argument about formulas. Last week, I sat with a

:14:48.:14:57.

constituent, Mrs Patel. She is a shop owner and before Christmas she

:14:58.:15:02.

was attacked and dragged to the back of her shop and cut by a man

:15:03.:15:09.

wielding a knife. How vicious attack has robbed her of her work, her

:15:10.:15:14.

sense of confidence, and has left deep scars, not just mentally but

:15:15.:15:19.

physically as well. There is only one thing that is more horrendous

:15:20.:15:24.

than the attack on Mrs Patel in her shop. It is the fact a few short

:15:25.:15:29.

years ago in the same shop and in the same way her husband was

:15:30.:15:34.

violently attacked and was stabbed to death. She wants to know why the

:15:35.:15:40.

officers that used to patrol the area in which her shop is and where

:15:41.:15:44.

she lives are not patrolling any more. Her son wants to know what it

:15:45.:15:51.

took so long during this violent attack for a card to respond and why

:15:52.:15:59.

Mrs Patel while being subject to such a terrifying attack with a

:16:00.:16:07.

knife against her throat by a man who in her mind was attempting to

:16:08.:16:10.

send her to the same place her husband had been, why this man was

:16:11.:16:15.

not immediately apprehended in the midst of all this. This is not a

:16:16.:16:22.

debate about a formula, it is about the safety of my constituents and

:16:23.:16:25.

their freedom and to live their lives without fear of threat. Madame

:16:26.:16:32.

Deputy Speaker, I believe the argument I advance, that

:16:33.:16:35.

Bedfordshire fair funding is the acid test for the new peace funding

:16:36.:16:39.

formula, is backed up by the context. As the honourable gentleman

:16:40.:16:47.

's, Bedfordshire is an urban force funded in a rural way. Luton and

:16:48.:16:52.

Bedford face fastly different challenges to the rest of this rural

:16:53.:16:58.

county. It is to the credit of the Labour police and crime commission

:16:59.:17:01.

that despite the obvious electoral benefit for moving significant

:17:02.:17:05.

resources into urban areas that he has still been able to move forward

:17:06.:17:10.

with plans that still have a significant rural presence given the

:17:11.:17:15.

challenges. As a community we face all sorts of challenges. We face

:17:16.:17:25.

extremism daily, the far right, and associated groups, regularly target

:17:26.:17:29.

our town. Just one protest last year a group of around 200 drunken men

:17:30.:17:37.

led to a policing bill of ?320,000 that had to be picked up locally. As

:17:38.:17:43.

well as the ongoing challenge of infiltration by extremists into the

:17:44.:17:48.

community. We have to defend major transport infrastructure with Luton

:17:49.:17:54.

airport in my constituency carried upwards of 10 million passengers a

:17:55.:17:58.

year. The East Midlands and the West Coast Main line passes through the

:17:59.:18:02.

constituency and the two principal routes between London and the North

:18:03.:18:07.

as well. Despite this, Bedfordshire has to get by on similar police

:18:08.:18:12.

funding and strength as Dorset, Sussex, and Hertfordshire. There is

:18:13.:18:18.

only one thing that could undermine my argument, so let me pre-empt it.

:18:19.:18:25.

If since 2010 there had not been significant changes, inefficiencies,

:18:26.:18:28.

innovations in the way in which Bedfordshire is operating, if we

:18:29.:18:33.

bury our heads in the sand and said the problem is purely government

:18:34.:18:37.

cutting back spending, but in this case it is not true. The force has

:18:38.:18:43.

made ?25 million worth of savings and expects to make another 11

:18:44.:18:48.

million in the coming years. Under the leadership of the police and

:18:49.:18:54.

crime Commissioner, the tri- force Alliance should produce around ?10

:18:55.:18:58.

million worth of savings for Bedfordshire alone. The police

:18:59.:19:04.

innovation fund supports bluelight collaboration with fire and

:19:05.:19:09.

ambulance. There is an increased use of special constables and new

:19:10.:19:12.

technology is being rolled out to save cost and police time including

:19:13.:19:19.

smartphones, automatic telematics and even drones. At the same time we

:19:20.:19:25.

have seen an increased use of transparency through the use of body

:19:26.:19:32.

worn cameras which is vital for maintaining the involvement of the

:19:33.:19:35.

community and the sense in which they are protected by the police. I

:19:36.:19:42.

am grateful to my honourable friend. He has been talking about cost

:19:43.:19:46.

savings between Betvictor, Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire,

:19:47.:19:52.

but does he agree that that is about cost sharing, but there is still the

:19:53.:19:57.

revenue that accrues to Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire

:19:58.:20:01.

which is in excess of the financial resources that come into

:20:02.:20:05.

Bedfordshire. It is a pity we are not able to encourage those counties

:20:06.:20:10.

to draw together with us. Would he like to hear the minister's thoughts

:20:11.:20:13.

on whether there would be Home Office proposals to push forward to

:20:14.:20:17.

allow greater sharing of the revenue as well as the cost sharing?

:20:18.:20:24.

Absolutely and my own opinion is I think there is far greater space for

:20:25.:20:28.

collaboration, but equally the challenge for a force like

:20:29.:20:32.

Bedfordshire, I have not painted a particularly rosy picture, and there

:20:33.:20:37.

does need to be government influence over these kind of measures. It

:20:38.:20:43.

cannot just be left to local level. For Cambridgeshire and

:20:44.:20:47.

Hertfordshire, in which there have been two good police and crime

:20:48.:20:52.

Commissioner 's who have been keen to work with Bedfordshire, they are

:20:53.:20:56.

ultimately accountable to their own residents for making sure they get

:20:57.:21:01.

the best possible deal. While I want to signal not just the innovation

:21:02.:21:04.

that has gone on in Bedfordshire, but also my own willingness to

:21:05.:21:08.

explore innovation on a statesman-like basis rather than

:21:09.:21:14.

drawing back into opposition politics, I think it is important we

:21:15.:21:18.

get the funding in Bedfordshire right through this process and we

:21:19.:21:21.

can look at further collaboration down the line. The police and crime

:21:22.:21:26.

Commissioner here is the third cheapest in the country and said

:21:27.:21:34.

more than ?200,000 in his first year in office over the old police

:21:35.:21:39.

authority. This is not the case of a police and crime Commissioner trying

:21:40.:21:43.

to make a particular case to government. This is an issue that

:21:44.:21:49.

spanned both governments, labour and Conservative, so we welcome the

:21:50.:21:52.

willingness of the Minister to engage to get the funding formula

:21:53.:21:57.

right. In other words, we are doing all the things you asked us to. We

:21:58.:22:01.

are doing the things that are right by our residents, everything that

:22:02.:22:07.

you would expect Bedfordshire is being done. The acid test of this

:22:08.:22:11.

police formula is whether Bedfordshire and like it that I

:22:12.:22:15.

significantly disadvantaged are properly funded alongside other

:22:16.:22:23.

police forces. It is no time for the formula and the Minister and the

:22:24.:22:26.

government to do right by the last two. Madame Deputy Speaker, I want

:22:27.:22:35.

to begin by being clear about what her Majesty's Inspector of

:22:36.:22:42.

Constabulary for West Midlands police, Wendy Williams, said about

:22:43.:22:47.

the force in her most recent report. She believes it is exceptionally

:22:48.:22:54.

well prepared to face future financial challenges. It has robust

:22:55.:23:01.

management of its current demand, its finances, and its plans for

:23:02.:23:07.

change. The force has embarked on an impressive five-year change

:23:08.:23:10.

programme to transform how it intends to deliver policing and in

:23:11.:23:17.

last year's valuing the peace programme which considered how

:23:18.:23:20.

forces met the challenge of the first spending review, West Midlands

:23:21.:23:27.

police was judged to be outstanding. I want to thank Labour police and

:23:28.:23:32.

crime Commissioner David Jamieson, our former Chief Constable Chris

:23:33.:23:37.

Simmons and our new chief Constable Dave Thomson, for doing such a good

:23:38.:23:47.

job on our behalf. The government has suggested that West Midlands

:23:48.:23:51.

Labour MPs are wrong to complain that our police are being

:23:52.:23:57.

short-changed. The Minister thinks West Midlands please ask where a

:23:58.:24:00.

length away money and sitting on huge reserves. Let's look at the

:24:01.:24:07.

reserves of the largest force in England and Wales outside the Met.

:24:08.:24:12.

Not only does it serve a population of nearly 3 million people and an

:24:13.:24:20.

area of some 340 square miles, but as HMI see note, the area served by

:24:21.:24:25.

the West Midlands force faces the most significant challenge of

:24:26.:24:31.

terrorism and extremism outside London, a point which I think the

:24:32.:24:35.

honourable gentleman for Kingston was alluding to. The force is in

:24:36.:24:42.

fact a national lead in the delivery of counterterrorism. It complies

:24:43.:24:46.

with the requirement to hold a general reserve which in its case is

:24:47.:24:53.

about ?12 million, which I understand can be compared with

:24:54.:25:00.

figures of around 26 and 23 million for the Met and West Yorkshire

:25:01.:25:03.

police. Its remaining reserves about 10 million set aside to address

:25:04.:25:09.

redundancy and equal pay in A force is still suffering the fallout from

:25:10.:25:16.

the a 19 forced retirements. A further 12 million is set aside for

:25:17.:25:22.

the self-funded insurance reserve. I expect the Minister is familiar with

:25:23.:25:26.

the problems of insurance for police vehicles and how most forces hold a

:25:27.:25:30.

reserve to cover this. About 3 million is set aside for uniform and

:25:31.:25:37.

protective equipment reserves, not high for the second largest force in

:25:38.:25:42.

the country. About 2.1 million for the major incident reserve and about

:25:43.:25:49.

18 million for the capital reserve. The Minister will be aware that his

:25:50.:25:55.

officials advised that forces should prepare for a reduction in capital

:25:56.:26:01.

grant in this year's settlement. I understand the West Midlands B is

:26:02.:26:06.

now about 2.9 million, a cut of about 2 million on previous years.

:26:07.:26:12.

When I look at it, I like Her Majesty 's Inspectorate and Chris

:26:13.:26:19.

saddlery sea a force with robust management of demand and finances

:26:20.:26:24.

and when it is proved outstanding in facing up to the challenges that

:26:25.:26:31.

austerity has imposed on it. Despite misleading for anyone to suggest

:26:32.:26:34.

that they are sitting on massive reserves and I invite the Minister

:26:35.:26:38.

to look again at these figures before anyone in the Government is

:26:39.:26:45.

tempted to repeat such a charge. On the question of the formula, I

:26:46.:26:49.

wonder if I can invite the Minister to clear up the situation with

:26:50.:26:54.

regards to claims from the Conservative Police and Crime

:26:55.:26:57.

Commissioner for Northamptonshire that he has been led to expect a

:26:58.:27:02.

transfer of funding from urban forces like the West Midlands to

:27:03.:27:07.

rural forces like his. Last week the Home Secretary didn't feel able to

:27:08.:27:12.

tell my honourable friend from Birmingham Northfield that he wasn't

:27:13.:27:18.

planning such a transfer of funds. Would the minister like to take this

:27:19.:27:22.

opportunity to come clean about his intentions? Of course his quoting

:27:23.:27:31.

the figures that Ajax helps apply to him so I am not going to contradict

:27:32.:27:36.

the figures during my summing up. There is no funding for me the

:27:37.:27:41.

change on the books, so nobody can say that they will be better or

:27:42.:27:44.

worse off until we come forward with the formula. It is certainly true

:27:45.:27:50.

that the minister did give me a gobs of some of the figures and I am very

:27:51.:27:56.

grateful to him for that. Let me -- glimpse of some of the figures. What

:27:57.:27:59.

he Police and Crime Commissioner said was that he had been tipped off

:28:00.:28:03.

that there had been a transfer of funds from urban to rural forces,

:28:04.:28:08.

that is the point I was making. What my constituents want to know, Mr

:28:09.:28:16.

Deputy Speaker, is why is it needed, more money for Surrey in

:28:17.:28:24.

Northamptonshire and then we need to police a place like the UK West

:28:25.:28:27.

Midlands? Why do we need to have less where we get more? Help give

:28:28.:28:42.

way. I am grateful. He might pass these same question of the local

:28:43.:28:44.

government formula when sorry as more areas like Durham as his area.

:28:45.:28:52.

Surrey. The discussion is that it would be used to divert money away

:28:53.:28:57.

from Labour areas to Conservative areas. If we look at past form, that

:28:58.:29:04.

certainly seems to be the implication. I was very interested

:29:05.:29:07.

to hear the honourable gentleman for South Dorset earlier employ the

:29:08.:29:13.

Minister to think again about fairer funding on the basis that with a

:29:14.:29:19.

fairer funding arrangement, the force in Dorset would get an extra

:29:20.:29:24.

?1.8 million a year. Can I just remind the Minister that with the

:29:25.:29:28.

same fairer funding formula, the West Midlands would get an extra ?40

:29:29.:29:33.

million per year. So when it comes to the transfer of resources, I hope

:29:34.:29:37.

you will bear that in mind. Because the reality is far from getting

:29:38.:29:43.

extra funding, over the past five years our force has had to content

:29:44.:29:50.

with ?180 million worth of cuts. The highest in the country. The

:29:51.:29:56.

workforce has been reduced by 3000. The incoming Chief Constable has

:29:57.:30:01.

been clear that he will need to reorganise to cope with the gaps,

:30:02.:30:08.

gaps, Mr Deputy Speaker, his words, with the gaps they now have to

:30:09.:30:13.

carry. I would like to know how he is meant to plug these gaps will

:30:14.:30:19.

stop -- plug these gaps. The mistakes in the formula mean that

:30:20.:30:23.

they now planning we have heard earlier against a one-year rather

:30:24.:30:28.

than four-year profile. That will make it much more difficult for

:30:29.:30:35.

them, so I would like to know how the Minister thinks the Chief

:30:36.:30:38.

Constable of the West Midlands is going to plug these gaps. I want to

:30:39.:30:43.

be clear Mr Deputy Speaker, I don't want to deride the Home Secretary

:30:44.:30:46.

for saying that volunteers with specialist skills in IT or

:30:47.:30:51.

accountancy might be useful in helping to tackle cybercrime, but I

:30:52.:30:57.

am curious to know why it is necessary to create a new position

:30:58.:31:04.

of police support volunteers rather than simply recruit more special

:31:05.:31:08.

constables with particular skills and expertise. Is this part of a

:31:09.:31:19.

wider volunteer plan? A very simple answer. A special Constable is an

:31:20.:31:25.

unpaid warranted officer, the same as a full-time officer. Many people

:31:26.:31:29.

do not want to carry the warrant but do want to help their local police

:31:30.:31:33.

force. That is why there is a separate criteria and they are not

:31:34.:31:36.

all specials because they all don't have to be warranted. I am grateful

:31:37.:31:41.

for the Minister for that and perhaps he will show us the

:31:42.:31:44.

consultation that took place to show this support with this new police

:31:45.:31:48.

support volunteer role. I welcome having a look at that so I am

:31:49.:31:54.

grateful to him for that. I want to ask him, going back to funding, if

:31:55.:31:58.

he really considers that a Triumph for is honourable friend 's from

:31:59.:32:04.

Solihull and Dudley South to claim credit for a 4.6% rise in the police

:32:05.:32:11.

preserve paid by the taxpayers of the West Midlands to make up for the

:32:12.:32:16.

money being given to police is like Surrey and Northamptonshire, is that

:32:17.:32:21.

how we are going to be forced to plug the gap, by paying more pounds

:32:22.:32:25.

for a less police in our area? Mr Deputy Speaker, I would also

:32:26.:32:32.

repeatedly advised that plan has fallen and therefore by implication

:32:33.:32:37.

that the Government's cuts are justified. I assume the Minister

:32:38.:32:42.

doesn't dispute the claims of the Office of National Statistics that

:32:43.:32:48.

crime rose by 6% nationally for the year ending September 2015, that

:32:49.:32:55.

violence against the person rose by 13%. I don't dispute that some types

:32:56.:33:02.

of crime have fallen, but then I am not interested in trying to

:33:03.:33:05.

manipulate the figures to mislead anyone. Isn't it important that the

:33:06.:33:13.

Government gives a full picture and comes clean on what the figures

:33:14.:33:16.

actually mean? I will give way. Thank you. Will the honourable

:33:17.:33:22.

member concede that the report in fact said that there had been an

:33:23.:33:25.

increase in the way that crime is recorded and that the reporting and

:33:26.:33:31.

recording of crime has improved and that actually is an explanation for

:33:32.:33:37.

some of the races. I concede that what the report says about some of

:33:38.:33:44.

sexual offences being reported differently and that accounted for

:33:45.:33:48.

that but it did also quickly point out that violence against the person

:33:49.:33:53.

had risen by 13% and I hope the honourable gentleman would accept

:33:54.:33:57.

that. As I say, what I think we need is clarity on these figures rather

:33:58.:34:01.

than use them to try and paint a particular picture may be

:34:02.:34:06.

misleading. There is one more point I would like to make, Mr Deputy

:34:07.:34:13.

Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the West Midlands force faces the most

:34:14.:34:18.

significant challenge of terrorism and extremism outside London. Of

:34:19.:34:23.

course, recently we have suffered a spate of gun crime in parts of

:34:24.:34:29.

Birmingham. The Chief Constable is set to increase the number of armed

:34:30.:34:34.

officers which I understand is in line with Home Office advice.

:34:35.:34:41.

Currently West Midlands has about 260 armed officers, in line with

:34:42.:34:48.

Home Office thinking means a further 130 officers. Where will the funding

:34:49.:34:54.

for these additional armed police officers come from? And where will

:34:55.:35:00.

the personnel come from? Will the force be expected to recruit

:35:01.:35:05.

additional officers or does this mean that those already engaged in

:35:06.:35:11.

neighbourhood policing or response policing will be required to

:35:12.:35:16.

transfer to these new duties further depleting those available for

:35:17.:35:24.

existing police tasks? It is not bluff and bluster we need today, it

:35:25.:35:31.

is honest answers to legitimate questions and queries from people

:35:32.:35:37.

like myself who are genuinely worried that the formula, funding

:35:38.:35:42.

and rhetoric doesn't match the heroic efforts of West Midlands

:35:43.:35:46.

Police to meet the demands of the community they seek to serve. We

:35:47.:35:55.

know that the funding formula for police forces in England and Wales

:35:56.:35:58.

has been consulted upon by UK Government as it seeks to simplify

:35:59.:36:02.

funding arrangements for this service. We also know that any

:36:03.:36:05.

changes in the funding arrangements have been delayed until 2016-17.

:36:06.:36:10.

This was very eloquently set out for us by the member for Leicester East.

:36:11.:36:15.

Because of Barnet consequential switcher so important for funding

:36:16.:36:20.

services across the UK, I would like to say a few words today about

:36:21.:36:25.

policing in Scotland. As many in this House will be aware, the SNP

:36:26.:36:30.

Scottish Government has carried out a reorganisation of policing in

:36:31.:36:34.

Scotland with its area forces merged into a new Terry force in 2013.

:36:35.:36:40.

Michael eight. Now the Scottish Government funds Scottish policing

:36:41.:36:42.

directly through the Scottish police authority and it's worth pointing

:36:43.:36:47.

out that this cross-party support although that support was

:36:48.:36:50.

subsequently withdrawn by the Lib Dems. Perhaps that is the nature of

:36:51.:36:55.

being a Lib Dem. However, if they may be permitted to point out, in

:36:56.:37:01.

Scotland, despite this major reform being implanted by the Scottish

:37:02.:37:06.

Government and delivering significant savings, the Scottish

:37:07.:37:08.

Government has continued to protect its commitment to 1000 additional

:37:09.:37:15.

police officers all in the teeth of harsh Westminster cuts. There is no

:37:16.:37:20.

doubt in Scotland we are having to make some very hard decisions about

:37:21.:37:24.

the police budget, but the SNP Scottish Government, the recent

:37:25.:37:29.

budget, the police revenue budget has been protected in real terms in

:37:30.:37:34.

every year of the next parliament, a boost of 100 million between 2016

:37:35.:37:42.

and 2021. However, it has to be said, some of the hard decisions the

:37:43.:37:44.

Scottish Government is having to make is a direct consequence of the

:37:45.:37:50.

UK Government refusing to give police Scotland the same VAT status

:37:51.:37:55.

as every other police authority in the UK. The same applies to the Fire

:37:56.:38:03.

and Rescue Service in Scotland and I see somebody chuntering from his

:38:04.:38:07.

position and a few wish to intervene I would be delighted to hear what

:38:08.:38:11.

you have a say. I will give way. The fact is the Scottish Government

:38:12.:38:16.

agreed to that proposal. What I would like to point out today for

:38:17.:38:22.

the avoidance of any doubt, although the Scottish Government... Although

:38:23.:38:26.

the Scottish Government... Listen. It doesn't make it right. Let me

:38:27.:38:35.

finish my point before you start chuntering! The reason is Scottish

:38:36.:38:40.

Government agreed to this is because it had no choice. It is working

:38:41.:38:45.

within the constraints imposed upon it by Westminster. I should say, Mr

:38:46.:38:55.

Speaker, like so many other deals in Scotland, it is imposed by a UK

:38:56.:39:00.

Government that is detached from Scotland and neither understands nor

:39:01.:39:03.

cares about Scotland's public services! So, Mr Speaker, Mr Deputy

:39:04.:39:08.

Speaker, I shall leave the matter there. If you don't like giving

:39:09.:39:14.

fairer funding formulas to Scotland, you had your chance last September

:39:15.:39:20.

and you kicked and screamed to hold onto us. All we ask for in the light

:39:21.:39:26.

of that decision last September is fairness, we are of course, a valued

:39:27.:39:36.

and equal partner. Let us be so. I have dealt with the point

:39:37.:39:39.

comprehensively. I have not ignored it. Order. If the honourable lady

:39:40.:39:45.

twitchers give way she will give way. If you doesn't want to give

:39:46.:39:49.

way, you all have to respect it. Patricia Gibson. I would simply add

:39:50.:39:57.

that holding an axe over someone's head and because they don't... Point

:39:58.:40:05.

of order. We are used to the breathtaking arrogance of the SNP in

:40:06.:40:08.

this place but I think it is completely wrong if an honourable

:40:09.:40:15.

gentleman or need it raises a point which is clearly wrong, does not

:40:16.:40:20.

allow other members to question her. As you well know, I think it is a

:40:21.:40:29.

user of a deal with it. First of all it is not a point of order. If we

:40:30.:40:32.

were to rely on something that somebody believes not to be correct,

:40:33.:40:36.

we would never ever get through a debate. Your review and the

:40:37.:40:40.

different view from the members will continue within this House. We will

:40:41.:40:50.

not disagree. Just let's see if we can help. I want to progress the

:40:51.:40:53.

debate. I don't want it to deteriorate. Patricia Gibson. I was

:40:54.:41:01.

simply going to add that point that anybody in this chamber would think

:41:02.:41:05.

that a unique VAT charge in Scotland's police and Fire Service,

:41:06.:41:06.

Jenny Willott buddy would think... The chair will not rule on the

:41:07.:41:19.

debate, I am not going to make a decision on who is right and who is

:41:20.:41:28.

wrong, Patricia Gibson. The Scottish police authority, uniquely for the

:41:29.:41:31.

United Kingdom, and therefore unfairly, is the only police

:41:32.:41:40.

authority, I do want to progress beyond this point, uniquely and

:41:41.:41:46.

therefore unfairly, the only police authority in the United Kingdom that

:41:47.:41:51.

cannot recover VAT and is therefore liable for a cost, an annual cost of

:41:52.:41:57.

?25 million. Equivalent to almost the entire forecast trading gap.

:41:58.:42:05.

This is an important point, the Treasury based this decision on that

:42:06.:42:11.

services would be funded by central government, but the Treasury

:42:12.:42:15.

introduced a new section into the VAT act to ensure central government

:42:16.:42:21.

funded schools in England could recover VAT. So why not the same

:42:22.:42:27.

provision for the Scottish forces, Scottish Fire And Rescue Services

:42:28.:42:31.

and I would say to the honourable gentleman, I am asking for it now.

:42:32.:42:36.

Why do I mention all of this Mr Deputy Speaker? Apart from it being

:42:37.:42:46.

about fairness, I mention it... Mr Jones, it would be easier if I can

:42:47.:42:50.

hear what is being said, I was hoping you would come on next

:42:51.:42:54.

because I want to hear from you but the outcome of Patricia Gibson. I

:42:55.:43:01.

mention this because at the end of debate, about managing budgets and

:43:02.:43:06.

Scotland is being short-changed by this unique VAT charge levied on

:43:07.:43:10.

police and Fire Services, taking significant funds away from these

:43:11.:43:14.

hard-pressed and important budgets. It is simply not fair and the people

:43:15.:43:18.

of Scotland take a dim view, as they should. Nevertheless, despite these

:43:19.:43:27.

budget problems imposed by Wes Burns to, a real term deduction of ?1.5

:43:28.:43:33.

billion in the funding for day-to-day public services over the

:43:34.:43:38.

next four years as a result of a comments or spending review, despite

:43:39.:43:42.

all of that, crime in Scotland is at its lowest level for 41 years. A

:43:43.:43:50.

violent crime down by 55% since 2006-7. Mr Deputy Speaker, I believe

:43:51.:43:56.

it was Benjamin Franklin who said that the only certainty in life was

:43:57.:44:00.

death and taxation. He isn't certainly right about the first but

:44:01.:44:08.

and a Westminster governments, he may have been off the mark on the

:44:09.:44:15.

second. However, there is another certainty in life which he

:44:16.:44:18.

overlooked and it is this, the one thing you may be sure that will not

:44:19.:44:22.

be debated during a Westminster debate is estimates. This issue of

:44:23.:44:30.

debating estimates may not exercise the mind of the general public but I

:44:31.:44:34.

believe that is because it is not well-known outside of this place how

:44:35.:44:37.

little scrutiny there is of the spending plan of respective

:44:38.:44:44.

departments. It is negligible and under successive governments that it

:44:45.:44:50.

should be so. If the public knew just how inscrutable the process

:44:51.:44:53.

was, I am sure they would have something to say about it. And of

:44:54.:44:58.

course, Mr Deputy Speaker, the compliance of the process is very

:44:59.:45:02.

technical and that is how spending is approved by parliament. We must

:45:03.:45:07.

remember in the course of this debate, that during the EU debate,

:45:08.:45:12.

it was suggested there would be a review of this process while seeming

:45:13.:45:19.

adamant that estimates already allows for the Barnett

:45:20.:45:22.

consequentialist. The procedural committee is reviewing the estimates

:45:23.:45:29.

process and learn that experts, far more learn it and distinguished than

:45:30.:45:34.

I, if you can believe that, they have argued from all sides of the

:45:35.:45:41.

political spectrum that while discussing evil, the estimates

:45:42.:45:46.

process is simply not fit for purpose. Mr Deputy Speaker, if I

:45:47.:45:53.

could crave your indulgence for a little longer and point out that the

:45:54.:45:57.

way this house deals with the supply and estimates procedure is simply

:45:58.:46:02.

not sustainable. We need to have proper debate around this siege to

:46:03.:46:07.

achieve clarity on Barnett consequentialist. The scrutiny is

:46:08.:46:19.

not robust enough and this Parliament has struggled to

:46:20.:46:26.

scrutinise these issues. The process is such that these procedures simply

:46:27.:46:30.

do not give MPs the full opportunities to scrutinise the

:46:31.:46:34.

consequential is a England only or England and Wales, and that is

:46:35.:46:38.

required in a mature and healthy democracy. It should be a

:46:39.:46:44.

consequence that the supply process be reformed in the interest of this

:46:45.:46:47.

matter being a process of development. That is a direct quote

:46:48.:46:53.

from the leader of this house, promised and envisaged on the 22nd

:46:54.:47:02.

of October 2015. Mr Speaker himself said he could not conceive of a bill

:47:03.:47:07.

without such consequential is and that Scottish members... You did ask

:47:08.:47:14.

me to crave some indulgence, which I have, and I have been very good but

:47:15.:47:19.

we do know that unfortunately, and you answered your own question, and

:47:20.:47:24.

that was the procedure committee is the right body to take this up,

:47:25.:47:32.

unfortunate, today's debate is not. I have allowed some indulgence but

:47:33.:47:35.

what we need to do is move back to the core of the debate. I take on

:47:36.:47:41.

board what you are saying, having craved your indulgence and maximised

:47:42.:47:44.

the level of your patients that you have shown me, I was just about to

:47:45.:47:49.

return to the police funding formula. I would like to point out

:47:50.:47:54.

that any discussion of police budgets in England must, in all

:47:55.:47:59.

fairness and justice, consider any effects and consequences for

:48:00.:48:03.

Scotland. Not least the VAT issue which is running in justice in

:48:04.:48:08.

Scotland, police in Scotland do an excellent job. But they must have a

:48:09.:48:12.

level playing field and I ask all of the members here today, representing

:48:13.:48:16.

English and Welsh constituencies, as you consider police budgets,

:48:17.:48:20.

remember the inconvenient truth that the police in Scotland have a VAT

:48:21.:48:24.

ball and chain around the ankle which picks money out of the pocket

:48:25.:48:28.

of the police budget to the tune of ?25 million every year, which no

:48:29.:48:34.

other police authority in the United Kingdom has to contend with. Saying

:48:35.:48:38.

that Scotland accented this is simply not good enough. Any

:48:39.:48:41.

reasonable minded person would demand that it would stop and it

:48:42.:48:46.

should stop now. Scotland is supposed to be a valued and equal

:48:47.:48:50.

partner in this union but there is a thing equal about these VAT burden,

:48:51.:48:57.

Mr Deputy Speaker. Kevan Jones. Can I say, during the speech of the

:48:58.:49:04.

member, you said you were craving for indulgence, that will is not

:49:05.:49:08.

what I was praying for. What we have just seen is what we usually get

:49:09.:49:15.

from the SNP. That something they agree to, they then turn on it in a

:49:16.:49:20.

victim mentality, as I have said on numerous occasions, it has brought a

:49:21.:49:25.

new art form in this house by the Scottish Nationalist party. It ends

:49:26.:49:29.

up being an idea that it is somehow everybody else's fault. She agreed

:49:30.:49:33.

to it, as did her government, I do not think she can somehow try and

:49:34.:49:38.

delude the electors in Scotland that somehow it is English members and

:49:39.:49:42.

the government of Westminster's fault for something that she and her

:49:43.:49:46.

own government agreed to. Can I move on to the purpose of this debate?

:49:47.:49:51.

Clearly the honourable member, apart from her sense of grievance that we

:49:52.:49:55.

have heard on many occasions in recent weeks and months, was not

:49:56.:50:01.

covered anything that was relevant to today's debate. Can I begin by

:50:02.:50:07.

congratulating the home affairs committee for their report on reform

:50:08.:50:12.

of the funding formula. And page are viewed to the chair for his speech

:50:13.:50:21.

in opening this debate. It has been said in numerous contributions in

:50:22.:50:24.

this debate that it is something that needs to be looked at for

:50:25.:50:31.

years. It needs to be looked at in a logical way, I do not disagree with

:50:32.:50:35.

that, we need to look at it in a detailed way into how we fund the

:50:36.:50:40.

police. It is an important issue for our constituents. But I don't think

:50:41.:50:43.

the way the government went about this had anything to do with a real

:50:44.:50:50.

serious hard look and a fair funding formula to put forward. It is quite

:50:51.:50:54.

clear if you read the select committee report, one of the

:50:55.:51:00.

criticisms, not only by chief constables but many PCs, but how it

:51:01.:51:06.

was rushed and the consultation started on the 21st of July 2015 and

:51:07.:51:12.

closed on the 15th of September. A period of eight weeks for

:51:13.:51:18.

consultation. The police minister then wrote to the cc and chief

:51:19.:51:23.

constables on the eighth, three weeks after consultation closed,

:51:24.:51:30.

setting out the force levels and inviting further comment. Having

:51:31.:51:38.

heard evidence on the permanent Secretary, I answered the question,

:51:39.:51:42.

why was it such a short period, they said they could have gone for a

:51:43.:51:46.

longer period or try to have the funding formula arranged before the

:51:47.:51:49.

spending review and they made that decision, whether that was the right

:51:50.:51:52.

decision is a matter for debate but a decision made to have the formula

:51:53.:51:58.

in place before the spending review. I totally agree with the honourable

:51:59.:52:02.

gentleman because that is what was going on. We were going to get this

:52:03.:52:05.

wrapped up into the spending review. I think what we are in store for was

:52:06.:52:13.

exactly what has happened in local government funding. Where we didn't

:52:14.:52:17.

have a fair funding formula at all. What we had was a skewed formula for

:52:18.:52:21.

funding that we had from the government that has moved resources

:52:22.:52:25.

in the most deprived communities in the country to low and behold, the

:52:26.:52:31.

more wealthy parts represented by the party opposite. If you look at

:52:32.:52:37.

local government funding, just by chance, 85% of the gains in that

:52:38.:52:43.

process happened to be in Conservative seats. I suspect that

:52:44.:52:48.

is what was going on with this as well. They have not reckoned with

:52:49.:52:59.

the PCC for Devon and Cornwall who clearly questioned the process. We

:53:00.:53:04.

have to put this against the other thing is that this government and

:53:05.:53:09.

its previous incarnation in the coalition has done to policing in

:53:10.:53:14.

this country, I will give way. I am grateful to him for giving way, I am

:53:15.:53:19.

sure he recognises that the police Minister is a pretty straightforward

:53:20.:53:23.

guy. Given that we have ended up in this situation and we have not been

:53:24.:53:29.

able to resolve this in four years for police forces can plan a

:53:30.:53:32.

long-term budget, wouldn't the fair thing to do now be to remove any

:53:33.:53:39.

doubt and suspicion, to subject the formula to independent scrutiny so

:53:40.:53:44.

we can all be absolutely certain it is fair? I will come back to that in

:53:45.:53:50.

a minute, the real issue is this, what we are seeing now in local

:53:51.:53:57.

government, is that we have a new formula, the resources would not

:53:58.:54:00.

have been devolved to the areas that needed them but what would have been

:54:01.:54:05.

devolved to the local areas would be the blame for where those cuts have

:54:06.:54:10.

to be. It is a formula the government has used for many years

:54:11.:54:18.

now. The member for South Dorset is not hear them the moment bent, in my

:54:19.:54:23.

local authority, we had five times the amount of cuts that South Dorset

:54:24.:54:31.

had in the past five years. I am fearful that this formula will do

:54:32.:54:35.

the same to local government and to the police. My honourable friend

:54:36.:54:43.

from Bootle makes a good point, that is what will be designed by this.

:54:44.:54:49.

They were found out I think by the PCC for Devon and Cornwall. I accept

:54:50.:54:57.

what he said about the policing minister but he is a small cog in

:54:58.:55:00.

this huge machine. What this machine is about is about devolving blame to

:55:01.:55:10.

local authorities, you don't devolve resources and the new point the

:55:11.:55:14.

finger at local decision-makers when these cuts have to be made. The

:55:15.:55:18.

Chancellor of the is the real villain of the peace in this, he can

:55:19.:55:24.

stand back and say it is not him. If we look at what has happened since

:55:25.:55:29.

2010, two 2p has been taken out of the police budgets of this country,

:55:30.:55:38.

22% of the funding. I don't accept that my constituents don't

:55:39.:55:41.

understand how police funding is arrived at. It is unique in that two

:55:42.:55:45.

thirds of it comes from central government. Many people, like the

:55:46.:55:53.

local authority rates, they think that pays for local services but we

:55:54.:55:57.

know that is not the case. We have an uneven system in this country

:55:58.:56:02.

whereby we have authorities that raise more in local precept than

:56:03.:56:08.

others, areas like mine are unable to raise large amounts due to the

:56:09.:56:20.

55% in Durham, art properties. It raises nothing like it would in

:56:21.:56:26.

Surrey or any other parts of the country.

:56:27.:56:35.

This was highlighted by the Chancellor in his Autumn Statement.

:56:36.:56:39.

The ability to put forward but arguing that those that are lower in

:56:40.:56:48.

it should be bound by the ?5 increase. All that does is help

:56:49.:56:53.

wealthier areas. For example in Durham, have we were allowed to do

:56:54.:56:56.

that, that doesn't raise anything compared with for example one of the

:56:57.:57:02.

more well off forces such as Essex and Herefordshire. That needs to be

:57:03.:57:12.

looked at. Would he agree with Matt that there is another issue that

:57:13.:57:17.

relates to vulnerable areas, the level of top slicing of grants? This

:57:18.:57:25.

year compared to next year, a 69% rise in the top slice of these

:57:26.:57:30.

grants next year. In Greater Manchester that the reduction of

:57:31.:57:35.

16.2 million. Would he agree with me that we need some assurances that

:57:36.:57:39.

top slicing for things like the national budgets like the

:57:40.:57:42.

transformation fund should not come from local police grants? I would

:57:43.:57:45.

agree but that is another sleight of hand the Chancellor users. Local

:57:46.:57:51.

government, the new homes bonus, trumpeted as a great ability for

:57:52.:57:54.

local authorities to raise money but what do they do but top slice it for

:57:55.:58:00.

exactly the way in which is being said. In terms of the precept, in

:58:01.:58:08.

the case of Durham, what will happen is that the ability to raise extra

:58:09.:58:14.

is limited. That in any future formula needs to be taken into

:58:15.:58:20.

account. I know the secretary, the Chancellor in his Autumn Statement,

:58:21.:58:25.

he said that policing was going to be protected, that somehow it was

:58:26.:58:35.

going to be a situation whereby money was now going to fall from the

:58:36.:58:40.

heavens. It is not going to because of the top slicing which will take

:58:41.:58:45.

place and it is quite clear if you look at what people have said a bun

:58:46.:58:50.

down the country, there will still be pressure this year in terms of

:58:51.:58:56.

the police budget. -- up and down the country. Any type of formula

:58:57.:59:00.

needs to look at local tax yield, the ability to raise any additional

:59:01.:59:05.

expenditure, which in places like Durham... What we have also seen

:59:06.:59:10.

because of the cuts, disproportional cuts might honourable friend from

:59:11.:59:15.

Bootle has raised, in Durham, since 2010, we have lost 350 officers and

:59:16.:59:21.

another 25 PC SOs. Before anyone says this is an inefficient police

:59:22.:59:29.

force, can I say it is the way police force in this country which

:59:30.:59:37.

under HMR I has... As the honourable friend Fullerton highlighted in his

:59:38.:59:46.

speech, great steps have been taken by local authorities, health

:59:47.:59:51.

services and police forces to drive efficiency. I am not opposed to that

:59:52.:59:54.

and I think that is to be welcomed but they do get to a point where you

:59:55.:59:57.

cannot drive out more efficiency because at the end of the day, what

:59:58.:00:02.

local people want is they want police on the streets, who are

:00:03.:00:09.

responsive and localised policing. That will not be done and it does

:00:10.:00:13.

get to a point in this process where you cannot deliver the service which

:00:14.:00:19.

the local people desire. We have seen it in local government. A

:00:20.:00:24.

situation now where many local authorities are being pared back the

:00:25.:00:30.

basically statutory services. Are we going to see a similar thing in

:00:31.:00:34.

policing? If that is the Government's ultimate aim in their

:00:35.:00:37.

drive to the small state Conservative Britain that they

:00:38.:00:41.

actually want, they need to be honest about that rather than hide

:00:42.:00:45.

behind this type of funding formula. In terms of the actual process, I

:00:46.:00:51.

think now that the Home Office has lost the police community, local

:00:52.:00:57.

politicians and also police and crank ten hours of lost all faith

:00:58.:01:01.

that the Home Office can actually do this review in a proper and fairway

:01:02.:01:05.

and I do support what is being suggested by the Select Committee in

:01:06.:01:10.

terms of taking us out of the hands of the Home Office because otherwise

:01:11.:01:16.

it will lead to a suspicion that what we have got in the background

:01:17.:01:19.

which we all know is a Chancellor wanting to use this as a way of

:01:20.:01:27.

driving out not efficiency but cash from the police service. It's

:01:28.:01:35.

possibly true, if it hadn't been for the tragic events in Paris, we would

:01:36.:01:38.

have been facing deeper cuts within the police force. With respect from

:01:39.:01:45.

it or honourable member from Islington North said, it wasn't down

:01:46.:01:50.

to him were the Labour Party that the U-turn took place, it was

:01:51.:01:54.

because of a fear from the Government that after the tragic

:01:55.:01:58.

events in Paris, they would quite rightly be an outcry if you're going

:01:59.:02:02.

to put through some of the cuts which they were going to put

:02:03.:02:08.

through. The issue around what is included in the formula, there is a

:02:09.:02:12.

dry for simplicity, I am actually in favour, always have been, in public

:02:13.:02:17.

policy of keeping things as simple as possible. But if by make things

:02:18.:02:22.

simpler, it is less accurate and less transparent, I would be against

:02:23.:02:30.

that. Clearly the interaction between other budgets, for example,

:02:31.:02:33.

I mentioned earlier on the issue around mental health, it does need

:02:34.:02:37.

to be looked at, but there is a police element there that is needed.

:02:38.:02:41.

You can't actually then say to mental Health Trust, you will have

:02:42.:02:45.

to pay for part of your local area's policing. I think it is important

:02:46.:02:52.

that the interconnection between... And deprivation has got to be one of

:02:53.:02:56.

those issues. Durham is a rural county but even under these

:02:57.:03:01.

proposals, if it is not real and off, or blue enough in terms of

:03:02.:03:04.

Conservative representation to actually get a great deal of money

:03:05.:03:10.

from this formula... Rural areas such as Durham are quite unique,

:03:11.:03:17.

because I describe parts of my constituency like this, very rural,

:03:18.:03:22.

but they have urban problems. They have problems which would be

:03:23.:03:27.

recognised in any urban area in terms of drug, alcohol, crime, even

:03:28.:03:35.

organised crime and deprivation, which means that the associated

:03:36.:03:40.

crime you get with that is of a high level. We do need a situation that

:03:41.:03:46.

takes into account not only reality but the reality of what is happening

:03:47.:03:54.

on the ground. The argument about alcohol, I think using licensed

:03:55.:04:00.

presses as an indicator, I think it is complete nonsense. -- premises.

:04:01.:04:08.

OK, the public image that we have is that if we listen to many of our

:04:09.:04:13.

national newspapers, the real problem for a crime is people

:04:14.:04:16.

spilling out of wine bars at happy hour. It is not. Speak to police

:04:17.:04:20.

locally. One of the biggest issues is alcohol in the helm. Actually how

:04:21.:04:25.

you reflect that -- the home. How you reflect that is going to be

:04:26.:04:30.

difficult. Reflecting alcohol disturbances in nine area with barbs

:04:31.:04:36.

is not going to have the problem -- Bowers. That needs to be taken into

:04:37.:04:41.

account. I would like to finish by paying tribute to the men and women

:04:42.:04:50.

who have had a tough last six years, not just in terms of the 350

:04:51.:04:56.

colleagues that are no longer in Durham, but they have actually met

:04:57.:05:01.

the challenge in terms of driving efficiency, interacting with the

:05:02.:05:04.

community and that has been reflected in the HMRC report which

:05:05.:05:10.

gives the force... I would also like to pay tribute to the Chief

:05:11.:05:14.

Constable Mike Barton and the Labour PPC Ron Hob, both worked very

:05:15.:05:20.

closely together in terms of not only driving innovation, efficiency

:05:21.:05:23.

and delivery of service but actually looking at some innovative ways of

:05:24.:05:29.

alternative justice. I think they are making a real impact locally,

:05:30.:05:34.

not very popular on occasions when they were launched but actually

:05:35.:05:37.

having a real impact on the ground. Can I just touched on one final

:05:38.:05:44.

thing? I am in favour of driving up costs and if it is for example, like

:05:45.:05:49.

in Durham, working with Teesside on the joint firearms units, dog

:05:50.:05:55.

handling, that is great. Where I have a problem with is suggestions

:05:56.:06:00.

with the Government driving through on the merging of other bluelight

:06:01.:06:06.

services. There is some clear efficiencies that can be done. Fire

:06:07.:06:13.

Services. I think we need to be careful we don't get a situation

:06:14.:06:17.

whereby again we get cuts being imposed for example on the Fire And

:06:18.:06:23.

Rescue Services because somehow they think that their job can be merged

:06:24.:06:32.

or massaged into the role of police. That I think, if there are sensible

:06:33.:06:36.

things in the back office, I am all for that. If a taxi blur blurs it in

:06:37.:06:41.

terms of the front line delivery of Fire Services and other services.

:06:42.:06:44.

That if it actually. But as a different issue altogether and we

:06:45.:06:48.

need to be very careful. I hope that we do have a proper look at this

:06:49.:06:55.

funding formula. I think it has got to be independent. The Home Office

:06:56.:06:59.

think credibility has been shredded on this. One thing I do not trust

:07:00.:07:03.

whatsoever if this Conservative government and the Chancellor in

:07:04.:07:09.

driving not a fairer funding formula but a funding formula that will

:07:10.:07:12.

actually divert resources away from areas like mine and into the leaf

:07:13.:07:22.

Tory suburbs. Thank you forgive me the opportunity to speak in today's

:07:23.:07:27.

debate. I didn't speak in the recent police debate despite many concerns

:07:28.:07:34.

from the benches, those concerns are still remain. There is much

:07:35.:07:38.

uncertainty and concern in police forces across the country about

:07:39.:07:43.

current and future funding. We were here just a few months ago in

:07:44.:07:46.

November making the case for policing to be protected from the

:07:47.:07:50.

ravages of Tory cuts. Labour members joined with others and people across

:07:51.:07:54.

the country in raising concerns about policing cuts generally. The

:07:55.:07:57.

Government was originally planning to cut police budgets by over 20%

:07:58.:08:03.

but at the last moment the Chancellor in the spending review

:08:04.:08:07.

statement to this House, he said he was protecting police funding and

:08:08.:08:10.

there will be no cuts in the police budget poll. Real terms protection.

:08:11.:08:17.

It seemed the Tories are still intent on cutting police funding.

:08:18.:08:22.

The debate today is about the reform of the police funding formula.

:08:23.:08:26.

Government may have tried to deflect attention by saying there are no

:08:27.:08:29.

cuts to police funding. However the fact remains that the level of

:08:30.:08:32.

police funding that the Government is committed to over the next few

:08:33.:08:37.

years will go down. We know that the Tories had the cancelled the last

:08:38.:08:41.

review of police funding from your last autumn as they had this

:08:42.:08:44.

targeted funding for police forces using the wrong figures. Last week

:08:45.:08:48.

Labour pleaded with the Government to think again before bringing in

:08:49.:08:53.

further cuts to police forces and forcing local people to pay more to

:08:54.:08:58.

make the Tory cuts. The Government are expecting police forces to raise

:08:59.:09:04.

extra money in local tax to make up for Tory cuts. No matter how the

:09:05.:09:09.

Government tried to address these up, a cut is a cut. What we need and

:09:10.:09:17.

what needs to be addressed a fairer funding formula that is fair to less

:09:18.:09:21.

affluent, I need, high crime areas which is not the case at present. I

:09:22.:09:27.

speak as someone who has grown up with a huge amount of respect for

:09:28.:09:30.

the police service and the jobs that they do. I have worked closely with

:09:31.:09:34.

neighbourhood policing teams over many years in my previous role as a

:09:35.:09:38.

county council. I have always appreciated the work they do and the

:09:39.:09:43.

professionalism of police officers who put their lives on the line

:09:44.:09:48.

every day. Unfortunately under this government we have seen the break-up

:09:49.:09:52.

of a neighbourhood policing model, something that the previous Liberal

:09:53.:09:57.

government achieved. Neighbourhood policing by police after their

:09:58.:10:01.

police stations and indignities building up trust within those

:10:02.:10:05.

communities and bringing down crime. The positive steps we saw on the

:10:06.:10:09.

Labour are being lost. Under this government's cuts and unless a

:10:10.:10:14.

proper funding formula is addressed, matters will get worse. In the last

:10:15.:10:19.

six months alone a further 1300 police officers have been lost, the

:10:20.:10:25.

equivalent of the whole force in some areas. We know that the Tories

:10:26.:10:28.

have already cut funding for the police service by 25% during the art

:10:29.:10:34.

world. The most recent losses bring the total reduction of police

:10:35.:10:39.

officers to a staggering 80,000 cut since 2010. We also know that police

:10:40.:10:43.

officers are already paying the price for the Government's actions.

:10:44.:10:46.

The reduction of officers numbers has put greater pressure on the

:10:47.:10:51.

remaining officers who have found their workloads soaring and

:10:52.:10:56.

workplace pressures intensifying. 27% of officers working more than 49

:10:57.:11:01.

hours a week beyond the legal limit. Crime may have fallen in some areas,

:11:02.:11:06.

the police are trying their best to reduce crime. However policing is

:11:07.:11:11.

about much more will stop it is about whether crime is falling or

:11:12.:11:17.

not, but also reassurance to residents in communities. They know

:11:18.:11:21.

that crime is changing rather than falling. When the 6 million cyber

:11:22.:11:27.

and online crimes are included in the official statistics, crime will

:11:28.:11:28.

nearly double. The most serious crimes on the rise

:11:29.:11:38.

and this is the worst time to cut funding. That is what the Chancellor

:11:39.:11:43.

is doing. He said he would protect budgets but we have more years of

:11:44.:11:49.

cuts. Make no mistake, the police service is under pressure and the

:11:50.:11:55.

morale of officers is at a low ebb. Police officers I spoke to feel the

:11:56.:11:58.

government don't understand or appreciate the commitment they have

:11:59.:12:03.

for the job. We should focus on cutting crime not to police. One a

:12:04.:12:12.

few areas where we have seen is PCSOs. Since 2010, South Wales

:12:13.:12:19.

police of increased PCO is by 77 and Gwent 35. This is due to funded

:12:20.:12:23.

support from the Welsh Labour government who supported a total of

:12:24.:12:29.

500 PCSOs despite significant cuts to its budget by the Tories. My own

:12:30.:12:35.

constituency is covered by two forces, south Wales and Gwent. In

:12:36.:12:42.

the next financial year, south Wales to see a cut of three million in

:12:43.:12:48.

real terms and Gwent 1.5 million. The need for support from the police

:12:49.:12:51.

service is significant in many communities represent but with these

:12:52.:12:59.

cuts the support is under threat. As I said, this isn't the time to be

:13:00.:13:04.

making cuts to services like policing. Safety of the communities

:13:05.:13:09.

is too important to put at risk. People in our communities need

:13:10.:13:15.

adequate protection for the police service, lack of a fair funding

:13:16.:13:19.

formula put this at risk and will not provide police with resources

:13:20.:13:26.

they need to do the job. Would he disassociate himself from the shadow

:13:27.:13:30.

home secretary comments that the police could take a funding cut of

:13:31.:13:39.

10%? That wasn't the situation that the Shadow Home Secretary described

:13:40.:13:44.

and he knows that. He is trying to misrepresent what has been said. And

:13:45.:13:53.

I think the party opposite talked about 20% plus cuts at that point so

:13:54.:14:01.

let's get things in perspective. It was also that non-ring fenced asked

:14:02.:14:08.

to find up to 40% cuts and if they had gone through you would have seen

:14:09.:14:19.

more than 10% cuts. I thank him. We are seeing a case of smokes and

:14:20.:14:26.

mirrors. In closing, I would like to urge the government to address

:14:27.:14:29.

concerns and provide the fair funding formula that the police need

:14:30.:14:38.

to do the job we ask them to do. I was in the debate last week and I

:14:39.:14:43.

will repeat something I said, a big thank you to the Merseyside police

:14:44.:14:47.

and staff and offices and I want that to be put on record. The Right

:14:48.:14:52.

Honourable member for Leicester East was very measured and generous in

:14:53.:14:58.

his analysis and exposition of the funding formula and he was generous.

:14:59.:15:06.

I am not the mines to be as generous I think the tensions it created

:15:07.:15:13.

across the police service are still being felt, the fear, worry that we

:15:14.:15:17.

will come back to this again and it will be just as unfair and just as

:15:18.:15:25.

much of a battle. But can I also say, I would like to apologise to

:15:26.:15:30.

the Home Secretary or the Home Affairs Select Committee, I say that

:15:31.:15:34.

because one or the other is trying to sell this house a large pup, last

:15:35.:15:40.

week the Home Secretary led the house to believe the police service

:15:41.:15:45.

was awash with money regardless of the review and in any event she

:15:46.:15:51.

said, it is the quality of officers not the quantity that counts. I

:15:52.:15:56.

remember that. The right honourable lady responded, when the right

:15:57.:16:02.

honourable gentleman calls on governments to provide real terms

:16:03.:16:05.

protection for the police and budget, I can happily tell members

:16:06.:16:11.

we have done just that. I heaved a sigh of relief at that reassurance,

:16:12.:16:18.

she has been cut, has the responsibility for keeping the

:16:19.:16:22.

Queens peace. She will not want to let Her Majesty down. The home

:16:23.:16:26.

affairs committee report takes a different view. The report says, the

:16:27.:16:33.

real terms reductions in central grants to police forces as a whole

:16:34.:16:41.

is varied between 24 and 26% however the range for real terms reductions

:16:42.:16:47.

for individual forces was from 12% for Surrey to 22% for Northumbria

:16:48.:16:53.

and West Midlands. The two forces most reliant on government grants.

:16:54.:17:01.

The Home Secretary has proactively selected and it is a disingenuous

:17:02.:17:05.

approach. The police minister told us that the West Midlands police and

:17:06.:17:10.

crime Commissioner, and this to some extent reinforces the point earlier,

:17:11.:17:17.

the minister said the crime Commissioner had not spent part of

:17:18.:17:22.

the hundred ?53 million reserve in the west Midlands and my belief was

:17:23.:17:29.

palpable, pulling the Home Secretary s chestnut out of the

:17:30.:17:33.

fire. The implication was police services across the country had

:17:34.:17:37.

secret stashes of cash gleaned from the ill gotten gains of chief

:17:38.:17:48.

constables, serving... Does it reiterate the point that what we are

:17:49.:17:51.

seeing here is cross government because the same arguments are being

:17:52.:17:58.

used by the Department of local government attacking councils for

:17:59.:18:02.

large reserves even though you can only spend a reserve once and if you

:18:03.:18:07.

look in Durham a lot of the reserves are all ready ear marked. He is

:18:08.:18:13.

absolutely right and I am too much of a gentleman to call what the

:18:14.:18:16.

government are doing claptrap. Clearly, the implication that the

:18:17.:18:22.

money has been stashed away, serving officers with malice or forethought,

:18:23.:18:27.

picking the Prince of council tax payers with a nefarious intention of

:18:28.:18:33.

protecting them from crime. Of course what the police minister,

:18:34.:18:38.

mimicking the amnesiac of the Home Secretary forgot to mention was a

:18:39.:18:42.

comprehensive public reports, a public report broke before the West

:18:43.:18:46.

Midlands police and crime panel on the 15th of October last year by the

:18:47.:18:51.

Chief financial officer clearly set out bats this report details by 2020

:18:52.:19:01.

it is forecast over 80% of West Midlands PPC reserves would be used

:19:02.:19:05.

to support the medium-term financial plan, transformation programme or

:19:06.:19:12.

other initiatives. So, out of two thirds of ?1 billion by 2020 the

:19:13.:19:17.

West Midlands PPC would have reserves of ?27 million or 4.5%. Des

:19:18.:19:30.

does also find it remarkable not just from the Home Office but local

:19:31.:19:34.

government that the government makes revenues and capital willy-nilly.

:19:35.:19:43.

The idea... It was a cardinal sin, using capital for revenue purposes.

:19:44.:19:53.

I think my honourable friend set out fairly clearly the jiggery-pokery

:19:54.:19:59.

finances of this government. Jiggery-pokery. Hocus-pocus. By

:20:00.:20:04.

2020, the police minister or successor will accuse the West

:20:05.:20:07.

Midlands police of flying by the seat of their pants for having such

:20:08.:20:12.

small reserves. In any event, the West Midlands PPC was all ready

:20:13.:20:18.

doing what the police minister was suggesting he should do, evidently

:20:19.:20:24.

there is a contagion of dis- ingenuity in the Home Office. What

:20:25.:20:29.

was more shocking was the content of the report of December 20 15th and

:20:30.:20:35.

the opposition Day debate heard from a minister refusing to take

:20:36.:20:38.

interventions with the exception of those from 12 of his own members in

:20:39.:20:44.

obscene QS mode. Here's insouciant and dismissive attitude towards

:20:45.:20:49.

member of the house, in other words, he has form. It extended to the

:20:50.:21:01.

police funding... I think he is unacceptable and they seek your

:21:02.:21:07.

guidance that the reason I took interventions when I did and I did

:21:08.:21:12.

take some is because the Shadow Home Secretary spoke for 35 minutes and

:21:13.:21:15.

destroy the debate. How do I get that on the record? You all ready

:21:16.:21:22.

have done. The dismissive attitude towards members of this house has...

:21:23.:21:31.

It extended to last years police funding formula consultation process

:21:32.:21:35.

which was widely agreed to be an unmitigated disaster. The Home

:21:36.:21:40.

Affairs Select Committee said it is regrettable that the minister

:21:41.:21:45.

proceeded on this timescale and it is unfortunate that he accepted the

:21:46.:21:48.

advice from officials, it is unsurprising that as a result the

:21:49.:21:54.

process ended in chaos, ended in chaos. Police funding in Britain

:21:55.:22:03.

ended in chaos. And with an urgent question in Parliament and the

:22:04.:22:07.

decision to suspend the whole review. I give way. The reason for

:22:08.:22:14.

that, as is clear from the home affairs Select Committee report is

:22:15.:22:17.

the civil servant made a fundamental error in calculations which the

:22:18.:22:20.

minister came to the house to apologise for and was commended for

:22:21.:22:26.

in the report which we are debating. And made Inspector Clouseau look

:22:27.:22:31.

like a complete competent. The Home Office stated, not content with

:22:32.:22:37.

giving the minister one caution it gave a warning, the Home Office

:22:38.:22:40.

stated on multiple occasions throughout the process that it

:22:41.:22:42.

wished to engage but they created a process which

:22:43.:22:48.

made it impossible for them to do so. Question 20 in the consultation

:22:49.:22:57.

document asked, how long should the transitional period last? Please

:22:58.:23:02.

explain your answer. What is telling was the response from Merseyside

:23:03.:23:09.

police and crime Commissioner Jane Kennedy, she was a former minister

:23:10.:23:13.

of State in Northern Ireland office with responsibility for security and

:23:14.:23:18.

justice and is someone who knows a or two about these matters. And she

:23:19.:23:24.

responded by saying given the lack of detail with regard to the

:23:25.:23:28.

magnitude of the proposed changes, I am unable to give an informed

:23:29.:23:33.

response, a former security minister having to say that to Her Majesty s

:23:34.:23:40.

government. There wasn't any point scoring, no histrionics, simply a

:23:41.:23:48.

ambiguous response to a consultation process from the police and crime

:23:49.:23:52.

Commissioner concerned about the service for which she is responsible

:23:53.:23:57.

and is held accountable for. And there are many other more nuggets in

:23:58.:24:03.

the report but I won't take at the time of the house regurgitating them

:24:04.:24:08.

because there isn't a pleasant experience for those watching,

:24:09.:24:13.

including the police minister. The reality in this sorry affair is I am

:24:14.:24:16.

not too concerned about the embarrassment of members of the

:24:17.:24:21.

members opposite, who felt the need to produce such a damning report,

:24:22.:24:26.

the consensus with the word used or the embarrassment of the Home

:24:27.:24:30.

Secretary or the police minister. What I'm concerned with is how the

:24:31.:24:35.

government has botched an incompetent formula review creating

:24:36.:24:38.

uncertainty in communities the country and the effect on morale of

:24:39.:24:43.

police officers of all ranks, not to mention the exasperation caused to

:24:44.:24:47.

police and crime Commissioners of all political hues. For example,

:24:48.:24:54.

rural areas have expressed concern about the numbers of officers

:24:55.:24:57.

because of the sparsity factor and that puts paid to claims that size

:24:58.:25:03.

doesn't matter. How many of her colleagues on the benches opposite

:25:04.:25:08.

would voluntarily agreed to a reduction in police numbers in their

:25:09.:25:12.

own areas? Presumably, the logic of the Home Secretary would demand that

:25:13.:25:18.

they would be falling over themselves volunteering to take

:25:19.:25:23.

police officers off the streets, few takers, I believe. So much for the

:25:24.:25:27.

argument about quality over quantity. I also wonder how many

:25:28.:25:32.

members opposite prepared to call public meetings in their

:25:33.:25:35.

constituencies trumpeting the need for less bobbies on the beat.

:25:36.:25:38.

Because the Home Secretary thinks that quality, not quantity, counts

:25:39.:25:42.

cost of family members opposite have the courage of the Home Secretary

:25:43.:25:47.

convictions, does the Home Secretary have the courage of her convictions?

:25:48.:25:51.

What a great slogan in Maidenhead, vote for me and have less police

:25:52.:25:57.

officers. After all, it is quality, not quantity that counts. If she is

:25:58.:26:03.

so taken with less police officers, let them have less in her

:26:04.:26:08.

constituency and not in mine. If the police minister is so enamoured with

:26:09.:26:13.

fewer police officers then he should put it on the website for all to

:26:14.:26:18.

see. Perhaps a photo with his gallery or a spot the difference

:26:19.:26:22.

competition before and after the implementation of a new botched

:26:23.:26:23.

policing formula. The outstanding understatement

:26:24.:26:33.

that... I think it was pointed out quite sensibly in my view, that

:26:34.:26:36.

nobody would volunteer to have fewer police on the streets, nobody would

:26:37.:26:42.

volunteer for that, and yet that is exactly the accusation today in the

:26:43.:26:44.

chamber that was made against the Scottish Government, that we

:26:45.:26:48.

volunteer to give away ?25 million a year to the Treasury. If, Mr

:26:49.:26:56.

Speaker, I can return to the report by the committee, the outstanding

:26:57.:27:02.

understatement, packed full of understatement, was the following

:27:03.:27:05.

code on the outcome for police funding in the spending review came

:27:06.:27:10.

as a surprise to many interested parties, including the policing

:27:11.:27:14.

community. I suspect it came as a surprise to the Home Secretary and

:27:15.:27:19.

the police minister as well. Finally, what would be most

:27:20.:27:24.

surprisingly is the unbridled ability of the Home Secretary, aided

:27:25.:27:28.

and abetted by the Minister, to botch the review, leading to

:27:29.:27:31.

uncertainty, a reduction in police numbers and quality, a serious

:27:32.:27:34.

threat to resilience, and ultimately to the safety of the public from

:27:35.:27:39.

Maidenhead to Merseyside, through Hemel Hampstead, and many other

:27:40.:27:44.

communities across the country. The message from this house is quite

:27:45.:27:49.

simple: the police service is not safe in Tory hands.

:27:50.:27:56.

I'm delighted to see in your place, and I can assure you, this has been

:27:57.:28:05.

a very long afternoon. It was my ambition in this place, since being

:28:06.:28:09.

elected five months ago, I seem to come into debates with time and it's

:28:10.:28:13.

a three, four, five minutes, it was almost my ambition to take part in a

:28:14.:28:18.

hopefully wide debate, but the opinion was formed before my

:28:19.:28:21.

experience this afternoon. I would like to start by echoing the

:28:22.:28:23.

comments of my honourable friend from Bootle, something that has been

:28:24.:28:29.

missed in many submissions today, both sides of the board of the

:28:30.:28:34.

police, every borough, every region, do the most incredible job. Men,

:28:35.:28:40.

women and staff, we all have safety in the way that we can work out of

:28:41.:28:44.

our front door and feel safe, we owe it to the men and women who occupy

:28:45.:28:48.

police services all across the country, north and south of the

:28:49.:28:52.

border, politics aside, we should recognise that for a moment. You

:28:53.:28:56.

will no doubt be aware that police in Scotland is devolved. Many of the

:28:57.:29:01.

substantive arguments that have been heard across this chamber this

:29:02.:29:06.

afternoon, this long afternoon, have not had direct implications for

:29:07.:29:09.

Scotland, and I do not want to ponder on many of them, what does

:29:10.:29:14.

affect Scotland is the level of Westminster spending, therefore, the

:29:15.:29:16.

potential Barnett Formula consequential or otherwise that

:29:17.:29:20.

Scotland will receive. So that we can run a police full is we want to

:29:21.:29:23.

run. It is remarkable, given the cuts that have been faced, that we

:29:24.:29:29.

have maintained a commitment to 1000 extra police officers on streets.

:29:30.:29:34.

Almost 20,000 police officers lost across the UK. If I have one message

:29:35.:29:40.

to both sides of the house, it is, whatever funding formula you come up

:29:41.:29:43.

with, whatever departmental spend you agree on over the next four

:29:44.:29:47.

years, your focus should be to increase and maintain the number of

:29:48.:29:50.

front line police officers, which would fiercely allow us to continue

:29:51.:29:54.

to do the work that we are still doing. Despite my cynicism of what

:29:55.:29:59.

has gone before in the last few hours, there are, there have been

:30:00.:30:05.

some memorable submissions and speeches today, none more so than

:30:06.:30:14.

the home affairs select committee member, who gave a clear summary of

:30:15.:30:17.

the position, I was very grateful for the clarity with which he

:30:18.:30:21.

delivered that particular speech. The member from South Dorset, back

:30:22.:30:28.

in his place, I is share his concern for and said, I do not think they

:30:29.:30:33.

will have their work cut out this evening to finalise the final draft.

:30:34.:30:40.

-- Hansard. In a substantive point, I was interested to hear how you are

:30:41.:30:43.

telling your government and this house that the police funding

:30:44.:30:48.

formula has currently constituted -- as currently constituted is not

:30:49.:30:51.

working for the people of Dorset and the officers that work there. Also,

:30:52.:30:59.

I think that dare I say, the atmosphere in this chamber was

:31:00.:31:05.

lifted momentarily, by my comrade and colleague from North Ayrshire

:31:06.:31:08.

and Aaron, and for what it's worth, I would like to invite the

:31:09.:31:12.

interventions and corroborate her position on the VAT position, it

:31:13.:31:18.

seems to me, and it will seem to the Scottish people that Scotland being

:31:19.:31:22.

treated fairly is something that gets this chamber exercised very

:31:23.:31:25.

greatly. -- North Ayrshire and Arran. That will not be lost on the

:31:26.:31:28.

people of Scotland, in allusion to the comments made by my honourable

:31:29.:31:32.

colleague for North Durham, he did the strangest thing, he made an

:31:33.:31:36.

intervention, which was answered, then made a point of order, so that

:31:37.:31:40.

the government could intervene on my colleague. I know there is a

:31:41.:31:44.

distinction in Scotland between blue and red, and it is becoming

:31:45.:31:50.

increasingly blurred, but that was tantamount to ridiculous. Last week,

:31:51.:31:54.

Mr Speaker, we had a debate in the chamber on Greece, there was a

:31:55.:31:59.

difference of opinion, dedicated upon words of the Chancellor on

:32:00.:32:05.

November 25, in the Autumn Statement review, " there will be no cuts to

:32:06.:32:11.

the police budget at all", " there will be real terms protection for

:32:12.:32:15.

police funding". -- debate in the chamber on police. The opposition

:32:16.:32:19.

say that was untrue, that there was a real terms reduction. The

:32:20.:32:22.

government in turn say that there is a real term reduction, but that will

:32:23.:32:28.

be outweighed, offset, if you like, by the ability of local authorities

:32:29.:32:32.

to raise council tax precept that can go towards police funding. It

:32:33.:32:36.

appears to me that it is not this place that is protecting the real

:32:37.:32:39.

terms position for police funding, it is the poor council taxpayers

:32:40.:32:43.

across England and Wales that are doing so, and from a Scottish point

:32:44.:32:46.

of view, unless I have picked this up dramatically wrong, we will not

:32:47.:32:50.

get Barnett Formula consequential from an increase in council tax

:32:51.:32:55.

spending in Scotland. Perhaps the situation was not made as clear by

:32:56.:32:59.

the Chancellor in November as it might have been. As a point of

:33:00.:33:03.

democracy, it is the Autumn Statement, millions of people

:33:04.:33:06.

watching, I think the public and the members in the chamber should be

:33:07.:33:09.

entitled to rely upon every single word that comes out of the mouth of

:33:10.:33:14.

the Chancellor at the dispatch box, clearly, whether by permission,

:33:15.:33:17.

whether by misunderstanding, it has transpired not to be 100% accurate,

:33:18.:33:20.

I think that is plain wrong. I really have nothing further to

:33:21.:33:31.

add, other than... Other than to say, other than to say, and I know

:33:32.:33:36.

the policeman will be devastated at that, that assertion, other than to

:33:37.:33:40.

say, whatever you agree, whatever either side of this house agrees in

:33:41.:33:44.

terms of relation to police funding going forward, please, please

:33:45.:33:48.

protect it in real terms, cybercrime, terrorism, a whole new

:33:49.:33:53.

range of challenges, is going to be essential that we do that, for the

:33:54.:33:57.

reason that Scotland will then have more money to spend on policing,

:33:58.:34:00.

it'll keep our streets safe, keep children safe, that is one of the

:34:01.:34:04.

core responsibilities of all members in this house. I would like to thank

:34:05.:34:15.

all of the speakers, my colleagues on the side of the chamber have

:34:16.:34:18.

detailed the impact it is having on constituents and police forces. I

:34:19.:34:22.

would also like to thank the honourable member for Bootle, and

:34:23.:34:27.

from Dumfries and Galloway, for reminding us that the police are

:34:28.:34:29.

trying to do a completely difficult job at the moment, with cuts and

:34:30.:34:33.

pressures coming against them, all of this house thank them for that.

:34:34.:34:38.

The right honourable member for Leicester East, was very helpful for

:34:39.:34:45.

setting the broader context in which we have had this debate, and this

:34:46.:34:49.

debate is so important, it could not be happening at a more important

:34:50.:34:53.

time. Any debate about police funding must be put in the context

:34:54.:34:57.

of the crucial role that the police played protecting vulnerable groups

:34:58.:35:00.

and children, getting justice for victims and given community safe. --

:35:01.:35:07.

keeping communities safe. As the home affairs select committee has

:35:08.:35:10.

said, then the demands on the police are many and various. Through my own

:35:11.:35:14.

campaigning work, I have found out more and more the scale of child

:35:15.:35:18.

abuse, it is truly shocking, the NSPCC approximates 500,000 children

:35:19.:35:23.

are being abused, reports of domestic and sexual violence are

:35:24.:35:26.

increasing across the country. I will give way. Can I commend my

:35:27.:35:31.

honourable friend for the work doing in that area but would she also

:35:32.:35:34.

agree with me, it puts pressure on regional forces like Durham, who are

:35:35.:35:39.

involved in operation Sea Brooke, at the moment, costing over ?2 million,

:35:40.:35:49.

into abuse at a particular centre. You are right to raise that, because

:35:50.:35:55.

cases like that are incredibly expensive, work needs to be done. --

:35:56.:36:01.

Operation Seabrook. It is coming from the existing pot we have, there

:36:02.:36:04.

is no extra additional money. The government needs to look at funding.

:36:05.:36:09.

Serious and violent crimes are sorry, major increase in knife

:36:10.:36:14.

crime, up 9%, and 27% rise in violent crime, a 14% rise in murder.

:36:15.:36:20.

Devastatingly, 50% of those cases close without a single suspect ever

:36:21.:36:25.

being identified. Central government funding for police forces was cut by

:36:26.:36:28.

one quarter in the last Parliament, resulting in the loss of 18,000

:36:29.:36:34.

police officers. 12,000 of them, operational front line officers, and

:36:35.:36:41.

thousands of PCS Os, ever fewer police officers trying to deal with

:36:42.:36:45.

evermore. The value of local neighbourhood policing, tackling

:36:46.:36:51.

these challenges alongside other authorities, cannot be

:36:52.:36:52.

underestimated. -- agencies. Neighbourhood policing, a proud

:36:53.:36:58.

legacy of the Labour government, is eroded. Crimes are up, victims are

:36:59.:37:03.

let down. After cutting the police by the 25% in the last Parliament,

:37:04.:37:08.

right up until the night before the conference is spending review, the

:37:09.:37:11.

government were threatened to cut at least a further 22%, we are on the

:37:12.:37:14.

brink of catastrophe, under pressure from Labour, the public, and the

:37:15.:37:23.

police... And London MPs... The Chancellor U-turn, and a promise was

:37:24.:37:26.

made, " I am today announcing that there will be no cuts in the police

:37:27.:37:30.

budget at all, there will be real-time protection for police

:37:31.:37:34.

funding, the police protect us, we are going to protect the police."

:37:35.:37:41.

This is a promise to the public and the police that has been broken. The

:37:42.:37:47.

Chancellor said he would protect the police, we now know that police

:37:48.:37:49.

budgets are still being cut. Police force funding for 2016/17 has not

:37:50.:37:56.

been protected in real terms, they are being cut again for the 60 year

:37:57.:38:00.

in a row, at a time when the country is facing increased risks. Figures

:38:01.:38:04.

for the House of Commons library show that next year, the overall

:38:05.:38:08.

Home Office grant to the police will not be protected in real terms or

:38:09.:38:12.

even in cash terms, this shows that forces in England and Wales received

:38:13.:38:17.

30 million less in cash, a cut worth 160 million in real terms. Even the

:38:18.:38:23.

extra council tax Tories expect local people to pay to make up for

:38:24.:38:27.

cuts will not, than say. I will give way. I hope maybe she will be coming

:38:28.:38:35.

on to this, just to make a small point, what her party would do where

:38:36.:38:39.

they in government, how they would look at this formula, and we can all

:38:40.:38:44.

criticise various aspects of the argument, but what is the Labour

:38:45.:38:47.

Party position on the formula itself, and how would they help

:38:48.:38:54.

constituents get a fair amount of money? While I wait for that day for

:38:55.:38:58.

years in advance, give us for years to plan and we will come back with a

:38:59.:39:03.

proper answer. -- four. Yes, she will! LAUGHTER

:39:04.:39:14.

Would you further agree, you have talked about the need for fair

:39:15.:39:18.

funding from government, but also, at a local level, one of the issues

:39:19.:39:22.

I am aware of in Bedfordshire, when you seek to try to use referendum to

:39:23.:39:28.

make sure you have better funding locally, the police and crime

:39:29.:39:30.

commission has two apparently be completely neutral on that. Compare

:39:31.:39:34.

and contrast with the situation we have over the European referendum,

:39:35.:39:35.

the government certainly is not stop very fair point, I'm not going to

:39:36.:39:50.

get involved in the EU debate, but parity across systems is something

:39:51.:39:55.

we need to be moving towards. The government recently announced that

:39:56.:39:58.

there will be no cuts to police funding next year. This was a little

:39:59.:40:01.

misleading. What has now become clear is that the police grant will

:40:02.:40:05.

be reduced by 1 million, and there will be nothing done for inflation.

:40:06.:40:13.

That comes to about seven to 8 million. The Tory police and crime

:40:14.:40:17.

commission for Devon and Cornwall said, " policing still faces

:40:18.:40:22.

considerable challenges, and tough decisions as we move forward, we

:40:23.:40:26.

estimate that to break even, we would need to save 13 million over

:40:27.:40:31.

the next four years, and only then, with further savings, can we plan to

:40:32.:40:35.

invest in transformations to address the emerging threat with less

:40:36.:40:39.

resources. These cuts mean thousands more officers, PCS O 's, and police

:40:40.:40:43.

staff will store go. The more serious and complex crimes are

:40:44.:40:48.

expensive, and time-consuming to investigate, prosecute and prevent.

:40:49.:40:53.

-- PCOs. Child sexual exploitation, counterterrorism and cybercrime. His

:40:54.:40:57.

21st-century challenges demand a modernised, more responsive, better

:40:58.:41:01.

equipped police service, not a smaller one. Equally crucial, the

:41:02.:41:06.

cooperation with other agencies, but as they come under strain, they will

:41:07.:41:15.

come under pressure. Demands on the police were increasing due to cuts

:41:16.:41:21.

to other public services. As local authorities deal with ruling as

:41:22.:41:23.

government cuts, they are struggling to provide special support to

:41:24.:41:27.

victims, to engage in preventative work with communities and protect

:41:28.:41:32.

vulnerable people. -- PCSOs. Particularly out of hours. Sara

:41:33.:41:35.

Thornton at the NSPCC told the select committee that the police

:41:36.:41:39.

were being used more and more as the safety net of society, and that

:41:40.:41:43.

after 4pm, Friday, the police are around but nobody else's. Nobody

:41:44.:41:47.

ever is very clear about who else is around. -- nobody else is. In the

:41:48.:41:52.

face of these challenges, not only budgets cut, but they are being cut

:41:53.:41:57.

with characteristic unfairness to less affluent regions. High need,

:41:58.:42:00.

high crime areas shoulder the burden.

:42:01.:42:07.

The current complex formalin for funding has been called unclear,

:42:08.:42:16.

unfair and out of date by ministers. Under pressure from police and

:42:17.:42:22.

labour, we welcome last year the police minister finally agreed to

:42:23.:42:27.

change the formula. However, instead of improving the situation, what

:42:28.:42:33.

followed was a chaotic Opec unfair and ultimately completely

:42:34.:42:35.

discredited view of the formula. In the words of the conservative Police

:42:36.:42:42.

Commissioner, given the fundamental importance of the policy to safety

:42:43.:42:47.

and security of communities, we do not feel the consultation has been

:42:48.:42:51.

carried out in a proper manner. The review faced to unprecedented

:42:52.:42:55.

threats of legal action by forces. It was criticised by the police and

:42:56.:43:00.

crime commissioners from across the political spectrum. Unbelievably,

:43:01.:43:04.

the review ultimately had to be totally abandoned because the Home

:43:05.:43:08.

Office miscalculated the funding for forces using the wrong figures. I

:43:09.:43:12.

thank the honourable member for Leicester East for giving examples.

:43:13.:43:17.

The error meant funding had been miscalculated by as much as 180

:43:18.:43:23.

million for some areas. The shambles would be amusing if it were not so

:43:24.:43:28.

serious. It goes on, it is deplorable Home Office officials

:43:29.:43:32.

made errors in calculating the funding allocations for police force

:43:33.:43:36.

areas. As a result of the Home Office Arab, confidence in the

:43:37.:43:39.

process has been lost, time, effort and resources have been wasted. The

:43:40.:43:43.

reputation of the Home Office has been damaged. Not only did the

:43:44.:43:51.

mistake mean forces made budgets based on incorrect funding figures,

:43:52.:43:56.

but it also meant forces now only know their funding for just one year

:43:57.:43:59.

unlike local government which got a four-year settlement. This makes it

:44:00.:44:07.

extremely difficult for forces to make long-term financial plans and

:44:08.:44:11.

innovate on the basis of unusual settlements, particularly in the

:44:12.:44:14.

context of further budget cuts. As the chairman of the committee said,

:44:15.:44:20.

to call it a shambles would be charitable. And what have the

:44:21.:44:24.

government done to rectify the situation? They have secretly

:44:25.:44:27.

consulted with their PCC is promising to channel funding to

:44:28.:44:33.

their Tory PCC is to get more. Conservative policing crime

:44:34.:44:37.

Commissioner Adam Simons writes, the new funding formula proposals have

:44:38.:44:42.

been deferred to 2017, it is unclear how this will that the government

:44:43.:44:48.

funding however it is expected this will transfer funding from urban

:44:49.:44:53.

areas to more rural. I am grateful to the honourable member from

:44:54.:44:57.

Birmingham Selly Oak for making this point and so will the minister

:44:58.:45:01.

please confirm if this will be the case? What commitments will the

:45:02.:45:06.

minister give to the house and the police that they will never again be

:45:07.:45:09.

insulted with a sham consultation like this on something so important

:45:10.:45:18.

and so crucial to the safety of communities? Police service needs a

:45:19.:45:22.

fair funding formula and a fair funding settlement. This government

:45:23.:45:30.

has offered nothing of the sort. Thank you, and I welcome her to the

:45:31.:45:36.

dispatch box, she makes -- may be there for some time because what she

:45:37.:45:42.

delivered was better than the Shadow police minister and better than the

:45:43.:45:45.

Shadow Home Secretary. I welcome her. I agree with some of her

:45:46.:45:53.

comments. And one of the things I agree with is a closing remark about

:45:54.:45:57.

this country and the police deserve a fair funding formula. The reason

:45:58.:46:03.

it wasn't done under 13 years of Labour and before that is because it

:46:04.:46:08.

is very very difficult and there is no doubt and I stood at this

:46:09.:46:14.

dispatch box and said there will be winners and losers if you change the

:46:15.:46:20.

formula. The existing form is opaque and we need to change it. We also

:46:21.:46:24.

need to change it in a way which is fair, I will in a moment, I want to

:46:25.:46:30.

make progress but I will because I will refer to West Midlands at

:46:31.:46:35.

length so I will give way. I think it's fair to realise that policing

:46:36.:46:40.

is changing, continuously changing and has changed considerably in the

:46:41.:46:47.

last five years. And it is right that the National audit office have

:46:48.:46:53.

indicated the way we are reporting crimes is more effective and more

:46:54.:46:58.

accurate should not be used as an attempt to say crime has risen.

:46:59.:47:05.

Crime in the last -- since 2010, for many reasons has reduced. But we

:47:06.:47:10.

have seen some increases in figures in the last year. And I think it is

:47:11.:47:14.

fair to accept that and we are looking at that. In some areas, it

:47:15.:47:19.

is brilliant that we have got more people coming forward with

:47:20.:47:23.

confidence to report crimes including sexual abuse or domestic

:47:24.:47:27.

violence which historically have not been reported as much as we would

:47:28.:47:31.

like and not treated as correctly as we would want by the police. Most

:47:32.:47:39.

people accept that. I give way. I think I wanted to ask, he said

:47:40.:47:46.

achieving a fair funding formula is incredibly complex, he acknowledges

:47:47.:47:52.

its is beyond the competence of his civil servants and we heard from his

:47:53.:47:56.

friend from South Dorset that he is seeking fair funding as are the rest

:47:57.:48:02.

of us. Given the difficulties, given the doubts and suspicions, would he

:48:03.:48:06.

give a commitment today that any future fair funding formula will be

:48:07.:48:10.

subject to proper independent scrutiny? So we can all have

:48:11.:48:18.

confidence in it? I will come onto the contents of the recommendations

:48:19.:48:22.

and it is absolutely crucial, whether we use the organisations

:48:23.:48:26.

referred to by the Select Committee or others, that we have the

:48:27.:48:30.

confidence to say this is where we are, this is what we think is right,

:48:31.:48:34.

we have the Chief constables with us and I will refer to that in a second

:48:35.:48:39.

but I will reiterate the point that there will be winners and losers if

:48:40.:48:43.

you have a pot of gold and divide it. We must make sure it is fairer.

:48:44.:48:53.

I give way. He raises an important issue in terms of the pressures on

:48:54.:48:58.

police forces for historic abuse cases. Durham is facing a ?2 million

:48:59.:49:06.

bill for operation Seabrook, is it right a investigation which is

:49:07.:49:13.

complex and is needed should fall on Durham and not a central pot to

:49:14.:49:19.

refund for those operations? The pointy raises is important and some

:49:20.:49:23.

forces have much larger percentages of costs around historical cases and

:49:24.:49:31.

there is the opportunity to apply to the Home Office for assistance. It

:49:32.:49:34.

is right and proper investigations are done by the forces and in some

:49:35.:49:38.

forces weather were not done right early on, more reason why we should

:49:39.:49:43.

have the confidence. If there's a specific point I know the inquiry he

:49:44.:49:51.

refers to and owe more than happy to look into that, I don't think I have

:49:52.:50:01.

had a request from Durham. While I am on Durham, Durham have done

:50:02.:50:06.

fantastically well. Let me take a look at Durham because if someone

:50:07.:50:12.

had landed from the moon this afternoon and listened to the debate

:50:13.:50:15.

and some people wish they had gone in the other direction, who would

:50:16.:50:21.

have thought Durham had really struggled?

:50:22.:50:32.

Even on the latest independent reports, nine of the 12th points,

:50:33.:50:38.

they were outstanding and the other two just good and only one which is

:50:39.:50:43.

a serious error on stop and search and taser requires improvement. But

:50:44.:50:48.

they have done that with a reduced workforce, more offices in the front

:50:49.:50:55.

line so they have gone down from 1705 to 1057, a substantial

:50:56.:51:01.

reduction so they have done that and they have massively reduced crime,

:51:02.:51:05.

including this year, something he will praise the police in Durham as

:51:06.:51:13.

I am going to now. I praised the great leadership of the Chief

:51:14.:51:21.

constable and the labour PCC Ron Hogg and more importantly the men

:51:22.:51:25.

and women of Durham police. But that is no reason why they should not be

:51:26.:51:30.

fairly funded. And in terms of the things they have done, they have

:51:31.:51:34.

done things but it has not been achieved easily and in terms of

:51:35.:51:37.

getting fairer funding they would not have done under what was

:51:38.:51:45.

proposed by government. What is clear is Durham have done more with

:51:46.:51:48.

less and done excellently well. I agree with him completely as I have

:51:49.:51:54.

said on more than one occasion, we need to have a fairer way we fund

:51:55.:52:01.

the police. But Durham, of all places where he stands up there

:52:02.:52:07.

saying how difficult it has been, yes, it has been difficult, quite

:52:08.:52:11.

rightly for many other forces as well but praise where praise is due,

:52:12.:52:14.

Durham have done fantastically well and they reduced the crime with less

:52:15.:52:21.

police, more percentage on the front line than they did in 2010. I will

:52:22.:52:31.

give way in a second. Actually, most of the debate wasn't actually about

:52:32.:52:37.

the future funding formula, it was about the previous funding formula,

:52:38.:52:41.

austerity measures and there was a degree, except from both sides of

:52:42.:52:48.

the concern. Where we go forward and honouring members about the uplift

:52:49.:53:00.

in firearms, I know the member for Selly Oak mentioned money which is

:53:01.:53:07.

separate funded. The issue was raised about counter-terrorism,

:53:08.:53:13.

separate funded from the formula. I accept in Bedford that there are

:53:14.:53:20.

some real issues with funding formula. But there was also more

:53:21.:53:26.

that could be done and when we look at what has happened in Bedfordshire

:53:27.:53:30.

where we see counter-terrorism money was given, they did not spend it all

:53:31.:53:34.

which is interesting as to when you are given that sort of funding for

:53:35.:53:40.

that specific use perhaps... The percentage of officers that are off

:53:41.:53:45.

duty because of that is temp ascent of the force but are not fit in

:53:46.:53:50.

operational duties. That is a concern and it is higher in

:53:51.:53:54.

percentage terms for such a small force. I accept there is work to do.

:53:55.:54:05.

Does the minister acknowledge that given what happened in relation to

:54:06.:54:10.

the review of the police funding formula and withdrawal of it, that

:54:11.:54:14.

there is deep concern that it doesn't happen again and that was a

:54:15.:54:18.

fear that it will not be fair. That is the concern. And honourable

:54:19.:54:24.

members can exacerbate that fear but they can't actually say and deny

:54:25.:54:32.

that I came to the house in humble pie because the officials got it

:54:33.:54:37.

wrong but I took responsibility and we will go forward to make sure we

:54:38.:54:43.

get it right. I will repeat, there will be winners and losers, that is

:54:44.:54:46.

always going to be a case and people will be happier and not happy. I

:54:47.:54:57.

give way. I'm grateful. I accept Bedfordshire is not going to be

:54:58.:55:03.

perfect in every respect but will he concede that Bedfordshire doesn't

:55:04.:55:07.

have masses of reserves sitting around, I believe only two points ?7

:55:08.:55:15.

million is unallocated in the four year medium-term plan. So to suggest

:55:16.:55:23.

in some way we can physician heal thyself without fixing the funding

:55:24.:55:28.

formula would be unfair. I have not suggested that, and I have suggested

:55:29.:55:43.

time and again that Bedfordshire... There has been fantastic work done

:55:44.:55:46.

with other forces locally in collaboration. And the capabilities

:55:47.:55:54.

review which I will come onto is crucial to making sure many forces

:55:55.:55:58.

get the sort of help they need as we go forward. As I do every time when

:55:59.:56:06.

I stand here, I say how proud I am to be the police minister for

:56:07.:56:10.

England and Wales. I was never prouder than yesterday when I was in

:56:11.:56:16.

did that. We saw it on the TV but it is only when you go there and see

:56:17.:56:21.

the scale of the industrial accident because there is a police and

:56:22.:56:26.

healthy safety enquirer going on where half of the building has

:56:27.:56:31.

collapsed and our thoughts and prayers are with the injured and the

:56:32.:56:35.

families who have had their loved one given back to them but actually

:56:36.:56:40.

three of the bodies are still, I use the word carefully, a recovery

:56:41.:56:45.

position still underneath all of the rubble. And it will be some

:56:46.:56:50.

considerable time before it is safe to reclaim them so that families can

:56:51.:56:57.

bury them and understandably grieve in the way they do.

:56:58.:57:00.

And, understandably, grieve. I met some very young officers, while

:57:01.:57:09.

others there, they were the young officers that arrived at the scene

:57:10.:57:15.

first. I can only imagine, with the experiences I have in different

:57:16.:57:18.

roles before I came to the house, what went through their minds. They

:57:19.:57:24.

went in one direction, Mr Speaker, a lot of other people were going in

:57:25.:57:27.

the other direction. There was a dust cloud, there were not even sure

:57:28.:57:32.

where the incident was at one stage. There was lots of injured, lots of

:57:33.:57:35.

people that needed help, the work that I saw that took place, and the

:57:36.:57:42.

unbelievable teamwork across the blue line that I saw that went on

:57:43.:57:47.

yesterday went on during the incident, and under half of the

:57:48.:57:51.

house and the country, I said thank you to everyone of those emergency

:57:52.:57:54.

workers, and emergency personnel, that were there, even down to

:57:55.:58:00.

volunteer groups that came with tea and coffee. Within literally

:58:01.:58:04.

minutes, because of the agreements they had with the local police under

:58:05.:58:09.

their Gold command. What I do say to them, a couple of things: I was

:58:10.:58:13.

proud to be the police and Fire minister with them, they did

:58:14.:58:20.

fantastically well. What they saw, on that afternoon, will live with

:58:21.:58:24.

them for the rest of their life. It is not physical injuries was talking

:58:25.:58:28.

about, it was mental injuries. We touched on mental health today.

:58:29.:58:34.

Emergency services tends to be Matt Schaub, the Armed Forces as well.

:58:35.:58:39.

But stressed touches everyone. Sometimes a couple of days later,

:58:40.:58:45.

sometimes days. Sometimes years. I have had friends who suffered in the

:58:46.:58:48.

Falklands, they have only begun to suffer in the last couple of years.

:58:49.:58:53.

-- macho. But what was also key, and it is partly in the report as well,

:58:54.:58:58.

that it was capabilities from other forces, that came to help, not just

:58:59.:59:02.

the traditional mutual aid that we saw in London only a couple of weeks

:59:03.:59:08.

ago in the Syria conference, when we had Armed Forces from -- armed

:59:09.:59:14.

response unit is from all over the UK, and it was good to see the men

:59:15.:59:18.

and women in the green uniform from Northern Ireland on the streets of

:59:19.:59:21.

London. But what can we learn from it? Can we learn better from the

:59:22.:59:28.

control rooms? Where there is lots of police called, police got the

:59:29.:59:32.

original call, and actually, there was a slight difference in

:59:33.:59:37.

terminology. That is why, in capabilities, it is absolutely

:59:38.:59:40.

crucial, with the funding review, that we get the cheeks to tell us

:59:41.:59:45.

where the capabilities are going to sit, and it looks quite simple,

:59:46.:59:50.

initially, are we going to have it within the force? Merseyside?

:59:51.:59:57.

Hertfordshire, the net? Or, in the regions. Or, the NCA. Actually, it

:59:58.:00:05.

is much more concentrated, forces have been doing capability joint

:00:06.:00:09.

work for some considerable time. It is absolutely crucial, when we look

:00:10.:00:18.

at the formula. We do not damage the work that has already been done.

:00:19.:00:34.

There is alongside the funding review, the chief constables are

:00:35.:00:37.

coming forward with their own capabilities to review. The reason I

:00:38.:00:40.

cannot say to the house today and the chair of the select committee, a

:00:41.:00:45.

timescale and a date that I will be able to start the new consultation,

:00:46.:00:48.

is I need the review to have reported to me. Otherwise, it will

:00:49.:00:55.

be absolutely ludicrous, finance a new one, they come to me and talk

:00:56.:00:58.

about the way that it will be structured, come back with another

:00:59.:01:01.

formula, I am not willing to do that. I give way. I thank the

:01:02.:01:06.

Minister forgiving way, he has given us a pathway, a timetable today,

:01:07.:01:10.

which we did not have before, is he saying to the house, as soon as the

:01:11.:01:14.

capabilities report comes to him, he will consider that, and then he will

:01:15.:01:18.

start the funding review? That is the timetable he is now setting in

:01:19.:01:25.

place. I'm trying to be as honest as I ever am, when I am at the dispatch

:01:26.:01:32.

box or giving evidence to the select committee, is this in my destiny? I

:01:33.:01:37.

could start a new consultation today, -- tomorrow, but I will have

:01:38.:01:41.

the information within my grasp, know I will not, I have not got a

:01:42.:01:51.

date. It is enormously difficult getting 43 chiefs do agree where

:01:52.:01:54.

they will place their capabilities. These mittens, for instance, has

:01:55.:01:59.

homicide from the whole area, and most of the others do not.

:02:00.:02:03.

Cybercrime, encryption, those kind of things, they need to come with

:02:04.:02:09.

us, it should not be for this house, that is what you should be doing,

:02:10.:02:13.

they should be telling us where the capabilities lie so that we can help

:02:14.:02:22.

funding. He will remember from my honourable friend, for Leicester

:02:23.:02:25.

East, the opening speech, that there has been speculation that the review

:02:26.:02:31.

will be put off until 2019. I appreciate he cannot give a

:02:32.:02:34.

timetable, can he categorically rule out that it will be as late starting

:02:35.:02:41.

as that? No minister would stand and give categorical responses. I

:02:42.:02:51.

cannot. What we are determined to do, and the Met is crucial to this.

:02:52.:02:57.

We need to make sure that we have an understanding from the chiefs and

:02:58.:03:05.

the PCOS, where they are asking for deliberations to come from. --

:03:06.:03:12.

PCSOs. Then we can come forward and get it right. I think that the

:03:13.:03:17.

response today was very measured, the reason when the Labour Party was

:03:18.:03:20.

in government put forward that they were going to do this, and did not

:03:21.:03:24.

do it, was part of the discussions we are having now. Crime has

:03:25.:03:31.

massively changed since then. Of course, I will give way. The

:03:32.:03:35.

Minister is absolutely right, crime has changed, does he share my

:03:36.:03:39.

concern that when we get the data for the online crime, whether that

:03:40.:03:43.

is fraud or grooming or abuse, that that is going to make the crime

:03:44.:03:54.

figures Spike? They said yes. I will say to the honourable lady that it

:03:55.:03:57.

does not mean tomorrow morning or next week or next month that

:03:58.:04:01.

suddenly, from that night before to their, you have five bidding, 6

:04:02.:04:05.

billion, whatever, the increase, because it is happening to all of us

:04:06.:04:10.

in constituencies now. The difference is that we will publish

:04:11.:04:13.

it. The only way that we can do this is to be honest and publish it. I

:04:14.:04:17.

don't know why previous ministers did not publish it in previous

:04:18.:04:20.

administrations, I'm not allowed to see those figures coming in need you

:04:21.:04:23.

diligence. You are not allowed to see that guidance. I would think it

:04:24.:04:28.

is because initially it was not taken seriously enough. Then they

:04:29.:04:33.

began to realise that it is actually a very difficult figure to pull

:04:34.:04:44.

together. I'm going to give way. Is he telling the house, I know from my

:04:45.:04:48.

own position that Dorset are working with Devon and Cornwall, other

:04:49.:04:53.

police forces are looking at how they run their bluelight service.

:04:54.:05:02.

The emblems and the Fire Brigade. Until everyone has had a real look

:05:03.:05:06.

at this, in various areas, and come up with some sort of joint policy,

:05:07.:05:10.

isn't there a consideration that only then would they be able to say,

:05:11.:05:15.

OK, we have all of these various people doing different things, now

:05:16.:05:20.

we can come up with allocation of funding? That is not what I intended

:05:21.:05:26.

to say... What I intended to say was that forces that have done that kind

:05:27.:05:29.

of collaboration already should be not worse off by anything that we

:05:30.:05:33.

have brought forward. What the chiefs are doing now is their own

:05:34.:05:42.

capability review, across policing, the vibration of service is

:05:43.:05:45.

something different, and when we know what the delivery point will

:05:46.:05:48.

be, in other words, where they think they will be, what part of the

:05:49.:05:54.

country, or they will keep it within the force, then we have the basics

:05:55.:05:59.

of how they can come forward. And I just make a tiny bit of progress,

:06:00.:06:07.

just a tiny bit. OK, one more. How can I say no(!) if he's doing

:06:08.:06:13.

business, why was it possible on the previous thing, to think that it

:06:14.:06:17.

could be done in eight weeks? And can I ask him, what role the

:06:18.:06:23.

Treasury is going to be in this. Are they still sitting on his shoulder,

:06:24.:06:27.

trying to get savings out of this? Are we starting with an entirely new

:06:28.:06:32.

process which... One of the key things has been raising this debate,

:06:33.:06:36.

he has got to get the confidence back, in chief constables, PCCs, and

:06:37.:06:44.

the police family. I have broad shoulders but not quite old enough

:06:45.:06:52.

the Treasury's influence in this is only that they have flat terms cash

:06:53.:06:56.

agreement for four years, not one year. That is the agreement we have.

:06:57.:07:02.

That is there, all the chiefs know that, all of the PCCs know that, if

:07:03.:07:07.

they do not, they know it is now. It would be wrong if I did not mention

:07:08.:07:14.

Scotland. Not least because we have a very interesting contribution from

:07:15.:07:19.

the honourable lady. I did not want to get into a spat between the

:07:20.:07:22.

Labour Party and the SNP. All that I can say, I thought that the SNP's

:07:23.:07:30.

position was quite... Well, I am lost for words, almost, I thought it

:07:31.:07:35.

was ridiculous. That is being polite. If you go to your bank

:07:36.:07:40.

manager, and you ask for a loan of ?10,000, and you agree that, and he

:07:41.:07:44.

has looked at the business plan and it is agreed as a business person,

:07:45.:07:51.

and as you walk out, after presenting a business plan to the

:07:52.:07:54.

people that will give you the money, you say, by the way, I want another

:07:55.:07:59.

20%, they are going to laugh, they are going to laugh as I laughed when

:08:00.:08:04.

I first read that is exactly what the SNP have done. What we have to

:08:05.:08:10.

try and understand is that if you have a business plan together, then

:08:11.:08:16.

you submit it to a joint force in Scotland, and you accept the

:08:17.:08:19.

business plan, that you will not give a 20%, how can you come to the

:08:20.:08:26.

house and bellyache? To point, when you walk out of that particular bank

:08:27.:08:29.

and you find out that every single competitor on the street has better

:08:30.:08:33.

terms than what you have, it begins to rankle, and you will protest. We

:08:34.:08:39.

also, when we included that in the business plan, we made protestations

:08:40.:08:42.

clear, we told them that we did not think it was right, we reserve the

:08:43.:08:46.

right to campaign on it, bomb here, for ever and a day. Just because it

:08:47.:08:51.

was agreed, just because it is in the plan, does not make it right. If

:08:52.:08:57.

you sign a contract, and you have an agreement, you are tied into the

:08:58.:09:01.

contract, I am afraid, at the end of the day, you can protest as much as

:09:02.:09:04.

you want, but at the end of the day, you signed a contract which said no

:09:05.:09:10.

VAT and now you are in a position... I'm not going to give way. The

:09:11.:09:15.

honourable gentleman must not chant from a secondary position in hopeful

:09:16.:09:18.

anticipation of the minister giving way, what he does is signal, and if

:09:19.:09:23.

the minister gives way, then he can intervene! -- chunter away. I'm

:09:24.:09:28.

going to come to a conclusion, not least because we have debated this

:09:29.:09:34.

last week, we debated this three weeks before that, two weeks before

:09:35.:09:37.

that, I have no idea why the Labour Party called a debate last week

:09:38.:09:42.

which has meant that less members are here today for the select

:09:43.:09:45.

committee report than would have been here. At the end of the day, at

:09:46.:09:49.

the end of the day, we all want more we all want to have confidence that

:09:50.:09:56.

the police are there, and they are there, we need to have confidence

:09:57.:09:59.

that crime is dropping, if it is dropping, at the end of the day we

:10:00.:10:03.

need a different formula, that is what we are going to try to provide.

:10:04.:10:07.

I'm sorry that I cannot give the chair of the select committee the

:10:08.:10:10.

dates of each part but I think that he may understand why I want to get

:10:11.:10:14.

this absolutely spot on and write, which is why I have made the

:10:15.:10:18.

responses I have today. It has been a sensible debate, even if I have

:10:19.:10:22.

not agreed with everything from the Labour Party benches. Can I say to

:10:23.:10:30.

the house that this has been an excellent debate, with so many right

:10:31.:10:34.

honourable and honourable members talking about their own special

:10:35.:10:39.

areas. The passion that we have in this house for the local police

:10:40.:10:42.

force and the respect we have is quite obvious. I want to add my

:10:43.:10:48.

thanks to Simon Colclough Chief Constable of Leicestershire, and the

:10:49.:10:52.

men and women of Leicestershire police, especially at this time,

:10:53.:10:55.

with one hour to go, until the next time the police will be out at the

:10:56.:10:59.

King Power Stadium, protecting the best football team in England. With

:11:00.:11:06.

apologies, to what happened on Sunday, Mr Speaker, to your own

:11:07.:11:11.

team(!) however, that is just one example of the wonderful policing

:11:12.:11:22.

work that is done... I know that as an Arsenal supporter you would find

:11:23.:11:25.

it difficult to listen to a Leicester supporter, especially

:11:26.:11:28.

after Saturday, when it would be difficult, but the point that is

:11:29.:11:31.

being made is interesting, policing has massively changed around

:11:32.:11:36.

football ground, we have done it in a completely different way to the

:11:37.:11:39.

way that we did it before, and thank goodness, the kind of violence that

:11:40.:11:43.

we saw when I was younger it is no longer here.

:11:44.:11:48.

Indeed. The key question the Select Committee wanted the minister...

:11:49.:11:56.

Wanted answered was when. He has not told us when but he has given us a

:11:57.:12:02.

timetable. He is waiting for the capabilities report to come from the

:12:03.:12:07.

lead at the National chief constables Council. When he gets

:12:08.:12:12.

that, you will review that and will start the process. At least we have

:12:13.:12:17.

a timetable, a pathway so some clarity, not the absolute clarity we

:12:18.:12:22.

needed but some way forward to find out how we will get a police funding

:12:23.:12:31.

formula that is fit for purpose. The question is... I was going to say as

:12:32.:12:38.

on the order paper. The question to dispose of the motion stands until

:12:39.:12:46.

7pm tomorrow. We come now to motion number three and with the leave of

:12:47.:12:52.

the house I propose we take motion is three to five each is on the

:12:53.:12:56.

subject of Social Security together and perhaps the whip will move in

:12:57.:13:01.

respect of three to five. The question is as on the order paper.

:13:02.:13:14.

The ayes have it. Motion number six. Not moved. Motion number seven on

:13:15.:13:21.

ecclesiastical ball. The question is as on the order paper. I think the

:13:22.:13:31.

ayes have it. The adjournment. The question is that this house do now

:13:32.:13:38.

adjourn. This do Gavin Robinson. Thank you and may I express my

:13:39.:13:44.

gratitude to you and your staff for this adjournment and the opportunity

:13:45.:13:48.

to raise what for me in my constituency has been a devastating

:13:49.:13:53.

blow but not just for us in east Belfast court for the Northern

:13:54.:14:00.

Ireland economy and constituents in Derby affected across Bombardier s

:14:01.:14:04.

operation. Given the nature of the debate, I trust members will have no

:14:05.:14:11.

objection to the parochial title I chose for the debate but it is my

:14:12.:14:15.

deserted bus my constituents in east Belfast while recognising this is a

:14:16.:14:20.

much larger story. Bombardier employs 74,000 people, in 20

:14:21.:14:28.

countries across the world. With 7% employees are in Belfast working

:14:29.:14:33.

directly in the aerospace industry. On the 17th of February, the

:14:34.:14:40.

announced job losses are 1080. I give way. I thank him. The figure of

:14:41.:14:53.

1080 jobs lost, there are some 1000 workers in Bombardier in my

:14:54.:14:58.

constituency and are concerned is unjust east Belfast but Strangford

:14:59.:15:02.

as well. I commend him for bringing this to the house for consideration

:15:03.:15:07.

and his hard work. When it comes to helping, the help needs to reach

:15:08.:15:15.

beyond east Belfast. Thank you, I'm grateful to him for making that

:15:16.:15:23.

point, 5500 on this site in east Belfast and around the city and five

:15:24.:15:26.

other locations but the people working for Bombardier lived

:15:27.:15:32.

throughout the province and around the city and in East Antrim and

:15:33.:15:38.

Carrickfergus and Bangor and North Down and in Strangford and across

:15:39.:15:45.

the province and this news story not only affects the thousand and 80

:15:46.:15:49.

impacted most directly but for their families and the local communities

:15:50.:15:55.

which they support and the shops and so on, the decision announced on the

:15:56.:16:03.

17th of February was seismic. I'm grateful for him to allowing me to

:16:04.:16:09.

intervene in this important debate. He will be well aware that his party

:16:10.:16:15.

leader, the first minister Arlene Foster will be making her first

:16:16.:16:21.

visit to America shortly to mark Saint Patrick stay with the Deputy

:16:22.:16:25.

first minister, her first visit in that capacity and I wonder if the

:16:26.:16:33.

honourable gentleman has asked the ministers to encourage the American

:16:34.:16:36.

government which has done so much really to support the peace process

:16:37.:16:39.

and other events in Northern Ireland whether they could intervene in this

:16:40.:16:45.

case. I am grateful and she raises a fair point and when I was a special

:16:46.:16:51.

adviser to the first minister I had the opportunity alongside the Deputy

:16:52.:16:56.

first minister of visiting the Bombardier facility in 2012 and

:16:57.:16:59.

there are important strategic links that have grown and it is an

:17:00.:17:08.

important avenue to pursue. Mr Speaker, as the largest private

:17:09.:17:11.

employer in Northern Ireland providing highly skilled, well-paid

:17:12.:17:14.

jobs in a technically advanced industry it is of great influence.

:17:15.:17:25.

To put it into perspective, it is 10% of the overall operating budget

:17:26.:17:29.

of the executive. Bombardier is responsible for 10% of Northern

:17:30.:17:35.

Ireland exports manufacturing figures. As a region, our enterprise

:17:36.:17:42.

minister have the realistic ambition and positive ambition of growing the

:17:43.:17:47.

impact of the aerospace industry from 1.1 million to 2 billion by 20

:17:48.:17:56.

24. I thank him for giving way and he talks about being parochial but

:17:57.:18:01.

the launch of the C series in the Bombardier, the factory has a huge

:18:02.:18:05.

contribution to make to the UK aerospace sector. Would he agree

:18:06.:18:10.

whereas I understand his concern for his constituents this is a national

:18:11.:18:15.

problem as well as a local one. I completely agree and I was seeking

:18:16.:18:21.

men this forgiveness for the parochial nature of the title of the

:18:22.:18:25.

debate. This is much larger than east Belfast and UK and global story

:18:26.:18:34.

given the nature of aviation. So, I recognise I posited target by 2024

:18:35.:18:40.

but to achieve that a man given the announcements it is important that

:18:41.:18:45.

at this stage we take stock and establish how best we can grow to

:18:46.:18:49.

meet the target. The present difficulties are associated with

:18:50.:18:54.

that developer and of the C series at aircraft and it is exactly the

:18:55.:18:59.

sort of manufacturing we as a country should be supporting. The C

:19:00.:19:03.

series aircraft is novel, highly innovative, utilising the best

:19:04.:19:09.

advances in lightweight technology and in its class represents the next

:19:10.:19:13.

generation of light noise reducing fuel-efficient aircraft that will

:19:14.:19:19.

travel further for less with wings fabricated and assembled in my

:19:20.:19:23.

constituency of east Belfast. Such innovation has brought with it the

:19:24.:19:27.

pressures from competitors in both Boeing and Airbus. The project has

:19:28.:19:33.

taken three years longer than anticipated and $5.4 billion over

:19:34.:19:38.

budget. It cash flow has become a problem but if I may I wish to nail

:19:39.:19:45.

myths that should not go unchallenged. Firstly, Bombardier is

:19:46.:19:49.

not a busted flush. They have taken the bold but significant step to

:19:50.:19:54.

refocus operations to enhance their competitiveness and the rising

:19:55.:19:59.

company values, one indication that whilst painful, the recalibration of

:20:00.:20:04.

the international operation was an important step from. Government

:20:05.:20:07.

could not have done the work to stave off jobs. Not only have

:20:08.:20:11.

Bombardier said as much, half the job losses announced were in Canada.

:20:12.:20:15.

Four months after the Qu bec government invested Canadian

:20:16.:20:20.

dollars. There was nothing regional government or national government

:20:21.:20:23.

could have done in the last number of weeks to stave off the difficult

:20:24.:20:28.

announcement that was made. Far from the government being inactive, I

:20:29.:20:32.

have been encouraged by the support of the regional and national

:20:33.:20:36.

government and therefore at this stage it would be appropriate to

:20:37.:20:41.

place on record my appreciation for the commitment from the Right

:20:42.:20:46.

honourable lady. She recognises the importance of Bombardier to the

:20:47.:20:49.

Northern Ireland economy. Within hours of the announcement in recess

:20:50.:20:52.

week she was available on the phone to discuss the issue with me, she

:20:53.:20:57.

stood readily able to assist and yesterday morning she flew to

:20:58.:21:01.

Belfast toured the facility and met with management to extend support

:21:02.:21:06.

alongside the minister of state for Northern Ireland and she was here

:21:07.:21:08.

late into the night, there was an early start for the minister but she

:21:09.:21:12.

was committed and she responded most ably. I would echo and indoors much

:21:13.:21:28.

of what my colleague has said. And many of the job losses are not just

:21:29.:21:33.

in one constituency, they have a wide scatter. But with the

:21:34.:21:35.

honourable member agree with me the point he touches on is important.

:21:36.:21:42.

That the job losses are indicative of a need for all of us here and for

:21:43.:21:47.

the executive in Northern Ireland and for the government in this place

:21:48.:21:52.

to work together because Northern Ireland needs a comprehensive

:21:53.:21:58.

strategy that is not down to the executive in Northern Ireland alone.

:21:59.:22:08.

I am grateful for the contribution who has workers at Bombardier in his

:22:09.:22:12.

regional and national government for regional and national government for

:22:13.:22:16.

Bombardier has reaped rewards. Since the privatisation in 89, billions

:22:17.:22:23.

has been invested in the facilities. Most recently ?140 million from

:22:24.:22:30.

national governments have secured additional 850 million investment

:22:31.:22:35.

funding from Bombardier including 520 million for their wings facility

:22:36.:22:39.

which was opened by the Prime minister and visited yesterday by

:22:40.:22:43.

the honourable lady. But here is the ask. Knowing the support of the

:22:44.:22:51.

minister, I would ask that she leaves no stone unturned in

:22:52.:22:55.

considering how best we can support Bombardier, particularly given the

:22:56.:22:59.

investment that has been present for the C series. I would be keen UK TA

:23:00.:23:04.

take a more imaginative approach as to how best they can support

:23:05.:23:08.

aircraft Manufacturer is when they seek to secure orders

:23:09.:23:12.

internationally. Competition in the market is rife but with three

:23:13.:23:14.

competing firms seeking government support, I would urge a tactical

:23:15.:23:19.

deployment of support dependent on both the need and likelihood of

:23:20.:23:25.

success. Inflating the order book for the C series must be a goal for

:23:26.:23:31.

us all. The opportunities for small and city centre located airports are

:23:32.:23:35.

greatly significant and encouraging the inclusion of the C series in

:23:36.:23:39.

their fleet mix and support for the significantly innovative industry

:23:40.:23:42.

must form part of government action plans and I trust the minister will

:23:43.:23:45.

address those points in her response. Personally I am aware of

:23:46.:23:51.

the planning challenges that exist in London city airport and a

:23:52.:23:55.

discussion with colleagues about ending the impasse on planning

:23:56.:23:59.

restrictions would prove fruitful for the C series and Bombardier. And

:24:00.:24:05.

finally following a personal request, she committed to hosting a

:24:06.:24:09.

discussion alongside MoD representatives with the aerospace

:24:10.:24:13.

security and defence industry in Northern Ireland to share a national

:24:14.:24:17.

procurement opportunities with them and grow the output and contribution

:24:18.:24:22.

to this country is export capabilities. With 70 companies in

:24:23.:24:26.

Northern Ireland and 27 in my constituency, I know the renewed

:24:27.:24:30.

importance of this request will not be lost on the minister. Mr Speaker,

:24:31.:24:33.

when someone finds themselves without work, with lost opportunity

:24:34.:24:39.

and no idea what is next, we must morally and politically stand with

:24:40.:24:44.

them and offer light during the most darkest times. For those 1080

:24:45.:24:50.

affected, their families and the aerospace industry, I trust we will

:24:51.:24:56.

start that process tonight. The minister of State to respond. I

:24:57.:25:01.

begin by congratulating the honourable member, my new friend,

:25:02.:25:06.

for Belfast East and I hope the honourable friend also for Stanford

:25:07.:25:11.

will forgive me because I have a new friend in Northern Ireland but he

:25:12.:25:14.

has secured the adjournment debate and this is an important matter and

:25:15.:25:18.

I don't seek to make light of it. I wish to take the opportunity to

:25:19.:25:23.

express my deep regret at Bombardier in announcing its plans to reduce

:25:24.:25:28.

its workforce over a thousand jobs as we have heard in Northern Ireland

:25:29.:25:33.

and 270 at its works in Derby. It is a huge lieu worrying time for the

:25:34.:25:39.

workers and their families -- hugely worrying time. As we have heard, the

:25:40.:25:43.

impact of this decision will be felt not just in the honourable

:25:44.:25:50.

gentleman s constituency but other communities in other constituencies

:25:51.:25:57.

of members. As he says, yesterday I visited Bombardier in Northern

:25:58.:26:04.

Ireland to discuss the recent announcement and how we can do even

:26:05.:26:11.

more to support them. The question is that the house now adjourns.

:26:12.:26:14.

Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:26:15.:26:17.

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