Browse content similar to 01/03/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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GROANS FROM CROWD Order. | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
This government is clear that the broad shoulders of this United | :00:29. | :00:42. | |
Kingdom are 100% behind the oil and gas industry and the thousands of | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
families it supports. We have announced a wide-ranging fiscal | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
package. That was further expanded at the summer budget, to drive | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
investment. Oil and gas UK have highlighted that headline tax rates | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
of 50% or 67.5% for those companies being PRT are no longer sustainable, | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
as the UK CS enters a ever more mature phase, and the oil price | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
remains low offer longer, this needs to be reflected by changing | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
circumstances and be permanently reduced, will the government listen | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
to the industry, what fiscal support will they bring forward. In this she | :01:23. | :01:31. | |
is budget. In the driving investment paper, the government recognised the | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
need overtime to change the fiscal strategy, and that is why the scale | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
of what my right honourable friend was as it was at one point ?1.3 | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
billion, the recent delays, the headline tax reductions took effect | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
on the 1st of January this year. Can I just echo those points, the North | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Sea oil and gas industry is facing very serious challenges, working | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
together with the industry and with the oil and gas authority, the | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
Treasury can help overcome these problems. Can I urge to be included | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
in the budget, tax cutting initiatives and support that build | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
on last year 's measures, and will help attract investment to this and | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
will ease the worries of many very worried people at this time. My | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
right honourable friend, intervening in this way, highlights that there | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
are so many jobs supported by the sector which are in England and in | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Scotland, I commend the work that he has been doing with the new Anglian | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
supporting companies that have found themselves in difficulties, working | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
on skills, and I will assure him that we will continue working hard | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
with individual companies to see what can be done to support this | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
vital sector. In North Tyneside, oh GN has shed all of its 2000 jobs. | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
The company has been in touch with the government to ask the help. -- | :02:59. | :03:07. | |
OGN. It has heard nothing about the development of wind farms and help | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
that can be given. Will the Minister say whether there is going to be any | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
help? Will you meet with myself and representatives for the jobs? I | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
thank the honourable lady, I would be very happy to meet with her and | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
with that company to see what proposal they would put forward. | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
There is an application for shale gas exploration in my constituency | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
which may result in many millions of pounds in community benefits. Does | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
the Minister agree that those community benefits should go to | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
those communities most affected by developments? My right honourable | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
friend the Chancellor has said that the shale wealth fund could deliver | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
up to ?1 billion of benefits, this is in addition to the industry | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
scheme itself, my honourable friend is entirely right that it is | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
important that community see the benefits and have the reassurance of | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
additionality. Doctor Roberta Blackman Woods. With your permission | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
I would like to answer this question together with question number 12, my | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
responsibility as Chancellor is for jobs, livelihoods and living | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
standards, it is clear to me that a UK exit from the EU would be a long, | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
costly and messy divorce, that would hurt all of those things. We have | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
already seen sterling fall and HSBC yesterday predicted a further 15 to | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
20% slump in the event of a vote to leave, the finance ministers, | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
central-bank governors, concluded at the weekend that British exit would | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
cause an economic shock, not just of UK but Europe and the world, what's | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
people are asking for in this referendum is a serious, sober and | :04:45. | :04:46. | |
principled assessment from the government setting out the facts, I | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
can announce today that the Treasury will publish before the 23rd of June | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
combines analysis of membership of a reformed EU, and the alternative, | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
which will include the long-term economic costs and benefits of EU | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
membership and the risks associated with an exit. Given that up to | :05:04. | :05:12. | |
140,000 jobs in the North East region export rely upon membership | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
of the European Union, does the Chancellor agree with me and the | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
majority of the Northeast of commerce members who say that an | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
exit from the would be extremely damaging for north-east economic | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
growth, and regeneration. I do agree with both the honourable member and | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
the businesses in the north-east, of course, the north-east has thrived | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
by a attracting big inward investment into car manufacturing | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
and train manufacturing, most recently, at Newton Aycliffe, one of | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
the things that those who are advocating exit from the year must | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
answer is, what is the alternative arrangement, what is the alternative | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
arrangement for a large car factory in the north-east of England, could | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
it export cars into mainland Europe without tariffs? It is not obvious | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
that you can do that without paying towards the EU budget, and accepting | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
free movement of people. Will the UK steel industry have a brighter | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
future if we remain in the EU or if we leave the EU? I believe that the | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
best way to help the UK steel industry is to take action at home, | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
and through being part of a large economic bloc, in other words, the | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
European Union, raise concerns with Chinese steel dumping, and frankly, | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
our voice will be amplified as part of the EU when we make that argument | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
with China, then if we were just making that argument alone. In the | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
event of a no vote, the government has committed itself to triggering | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
article 50 straightaway. I cannot see the point of that, why doesn't | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
the government give some time between the no vote and the | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
triggering of article 52 unable a discussion to take place with | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
counterparties, and see the extent to which good faith can be | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
established with the countries of the European Union. It seems | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
illogical to restrict ourselves in that way. It is not illogical that | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
if the country votes to leave, then we leave the European Union. That is | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
the choice for all of the people of the country. The only available | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
mechanism is the triggering of article 50, that puts a two-year | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
time-limit, of course we would try to negotiate in good faith, and | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
extension can be achieved, but only with the consent of 27 other | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
nations, people must be aware, there will not be to referendums, this is | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
decision day on the 23rd of June, people need to choose, voting to | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
remain in the EU is the best outcome for the economic and national | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
security. Isn't it extraordinary that the Chancellor asked the G20 to | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
make that statement and he made the request to them in order that they | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
could tee up this element of Project fear. The idea that the US Treasury | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
Secretary, the head of the IMF, indeed, the central bank governor of | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
China dances to a British tune, I'm afraid, is a bit fanciful. The | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
central-bank governors, and the finance ministers of the G20 are | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
saying what frankly every major independent economic institution is | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
saying, which is that a British exit would both cause an immediate | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
economic shock, and have longer economic costs. Frankly, many of the | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
people advocating exit, I totally understand why they want to do that, | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
but they accent that there is a short-term and long-term economic | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
cost, intensely, and I think that we should have that on the table, that | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
is what the Treasury will produce this analysis. Despite the recent | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
gulag debacle, does that Chancellor agree that the UK membership of the | :08:57. | :08:58. | |
European Union should make it easier to clamp down on immoral tax | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
avoidance by multinational companies? I know that Russia today | :09:03. | :09:11. | |
is the favourite channel of the Labour leadership... LAUGHTER | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
These are Treasury questions(!) what we are raising at the European | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Union, and this is another example of where being part of a bigger club | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
helps, is precisely trying to get a pan-European agreement to country by | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
country public reporting so that we can see what multinational companies | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
are paying in different countries. -- Russia Today. Our ability to | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
achieve that is amplified by being part of the EU. Jacob Rees Mogg. In | :09:41. | :09:48. | |
my right honourable friend 's rather apocalyptic view of the European | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
Union, if that is correct, was it not both either irresponsible or | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
inaccurate of the priming astir to say that he ruled nothing out prior | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
to the completion of the most unsatisfactory renegotiation. -- | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
friend's. We have secured a renegotiation which I think | :10:08. | :10:09. | |
addresses the principal British concerns about our membership of the | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
European Union. Now we can advocate membership of the reform EU, we will | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
be stronger, safer and better off in the European Union. Between 2007 and | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
2013, over 8000 businesses in the North West were able to start access | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
to EU funding, we welcome the Chancellor's comments this morning | :10:32. | :10:33. | |
about the analysis that he will put forward before the 23rd of June, | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
will that include specific detail on the impact of leaving BA you on the | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
economy to the Northwest? I am happy to take on board her request for | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
more information about what the impact of exit would have on the | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
north-west of England. I am a north-west MP. -- leaving the EU. I | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
know that there is a lot of businesses which have access to the | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
free trade single market, largest market in the world, all of the | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
alternatives on offer, whether you go for Norway, Switzerland, Canada, | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
the WTO, all of these different approaches, and of course, those who | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
advocate withdrawal have not been able to set along one, all of them | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
involve some kind of barrier to entry, or, you have to pay into the | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
EU budget, as Norway does, and accept free movement of people, | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
which is one of their complaints about membership. Examining the | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
alternatives which we will do in the coming days will throw a spotlight | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
on the choice facing the country. Should the British people decide to | :11:29. | :11:39. | |
vote to leave on June 23, what arguments would you deploy on June | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
24 two attract those investors wishing to invest in Europe, what | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
arguments in favour of the UK rather than other countries in Europe? I | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
will always fight and this Government will always fight for the | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
best interests for the United Kingdom and we will do whatever we | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
can in response to the verdict of the people. But the recommendation | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
of the British Government and my recommendation is we are better off | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
in the reformed EU. The point I make is this, of course we will have to | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
handle the situation if the British people choose to exit and I would | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
always stress we are a great country to invest in but I think that | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
argument we are weaker if we are not in the EU. We must attend to the | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
questions and in a timely way because this is desperately slow. We | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
can do desperate -- better than that, one would hope. Would there | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
not be a double whammy? The risk of depreciation leading to high | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
inflation and interest rates. And any motion exporters will benefit | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
from a cheaper pound is more than offset by additional tariff barriers | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
those firms will encounter worldwide. I think the honourable | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
gentleman, the former Shadow Chancellor, is right to point to | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
both the immediate economic shock which I think it's generally | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
accepted. Even those advocating withdrawal for honourable reasons | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
would accept there is an immediate economic dislocation, and longer | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
term costs. But if you say the Bretton to make this leap in the | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
dark, what is the Trinity? -- to Britain. How do you assure the | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
company fracture in the North East of England they will have no | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
tariffs? These are the questions for this big national debate. Those who | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
wish to state in the European Union say we are an insignificant and | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
small economy but on the other hand, if we leave the European Union, it | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
would cause an economic meltdown around the world. They both cannot | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
be true, Chancellor. Our argument is that we will be stronger, better off | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
inside a European Union. That is the sort of positive choices we face as | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
a country and I do not think this is the right time. I do not think we | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
should leave the EU but even those who contemplate it should think | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
about this. With the economic situation the world faces, with the | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
geopolitical situation in Europe with Putin on our doorstep and the | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
crisis in the Middle East, is this the right moment to leave? My strong | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
advice and the advice of the British Cabinet and British Government is we | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
remain in this reformed EU. The Scottish First Minister Nicola | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
Sturgeon was in London yesterday but making the case for the UK to remain | :14:43. | :14:51. | |
in the EU. It supports 300,000 jobs in Scotland and 3 million in the UK. | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
Can I ask the Chancellor to agree that in terms of EU membership, | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
trade deals will be easier to agree as a block, harmonised regulation | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
helps businesses to export and notwithstanding there are always | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
improvements to be made, being a member of the EU edifice consumers | :15:09. | :15:16. | |
as well? -- benefits. Scotland benefits from both being part of the | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
United Kingdom and part of the European Union. And he is right to | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
highlight the fact EU agreements on things like air travel and mobile | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
phone chargers have reduced costs for consumers. It is also the case a | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
depreciation in Stirling leads to increased inflation. In terms of | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
free trade, free movement which we think is a boom and the projections | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
in terms of the environment, social interaction and employment rights. | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
These are substantial achievements of the European Union. To be | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
celebrated and not renounced. That is the positive case we are making. | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Can I ask the Chancellor and the Prime Minister to make a positive | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
case because the inner campaign does not have a 20 point lead to squander | :16:09. | :16:17. | |
with a negative campaign. I am making the positive case we would be | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
stronger, safer and better. Those are positive outcomes. And there | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
are? Over the alternatives and we do not know what the leap in the dark | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
would entail and that is reasonable to point out. I want to do this in a | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
positive way and that is a healthy debate. I take the Ronald Reagan | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
11th Commandment, I will not speak ill of a Conservative! Mr Speaker... | :16:43. | :16:52. | |
The national living wage will mean a full-time minimum wage and it will | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
earn over ?4000 more by 2020 in monetary terms, a rise of more than | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
34% due to the ripple effects on those on higher incomes up to 6 | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
million workers will benefit, the national living wage will drive | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
productivity, make sure work pays. Progressive and fair and I am proud | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
it is being introduced by a Conservative government. I thank him | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
for his response. I am delighted the national living wage comes into | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
force from April the 1st Southampton has a number of low paid workers | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
which this policy addresses. What assurances can he make to my | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
constituents their jobs will be protected as a consequence of this | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
wage rise and a stronger local economy? The assurance I can give is | :17:41. | :17:48. | |
alongside the national living wage, we have cut taxes for businesses so | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
they have more money to invest in their workforce. We have introduced | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
and increased the employment alone is helping small businesses | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
especially in used that at the same time as announcing the national | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
living wage. And we are making big investments in the Southampton | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
economy so this is a great place to grow business and employee people, | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
all helping this hard-working people. Wage growth matters. Surely | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
it is the bottom line of your payslip that counts. That is why he | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
is wrong to say this is progressive when the Resolution Foundation finds | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
over the next Parliament, those in the top half of the income | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
distribution will benefit more than those at the bottom. How can the | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
Chancellor say what he has done will help those with the least? I think | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
she seems to be opposing the national living wage. I think it is | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
a progressive policy and it was based on work by the Resolution | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
Foundation. If you want a regressive policy, how about increasing the | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
basing great -- basic rate of income tax? That is what the Labour Party | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
is proposing in Scotland, the first sign of what an economic policy | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
would look like under this New Labour leadership. How could an | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
increase in the basic rate of income tax hitting people earning over | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
?11,000 be remotely progressive or fair? Most businesses as well as | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
workers in my constituency warmly welcomed the introduction of the | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
national living wage and the increased spending power it | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
delivers. Will the Chancer and his team heavily monitored the | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
implementation to see if any unintended consequences happen | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
particularly where margins are small set of bombing, social care and | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
hospitality? -- Chancellor. Of course we will monitor the impact of | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
our policies on the economy, especially sectors in the social | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
care sector, that is one reason why alongside introducing the national | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
living wage, we have introduced a new council tax supplement. The | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
analysis when we announced this is while in theory 60,000 jobs could be | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
lost in the future, that might otherwise not have been created, or | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
the policies we will see creating over 1 million jobs so the overall | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
effect is an increase of employment. How can the Treasury ensure | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
employers do not reduce the hours of work to employees? Many of those in | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
receipt of low incomes. What I would say is many different employer | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
organisations and businesses have welcomed the national living wage | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
will stop and many studies suggest having a higher ceiling, a higher | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
law on wages drives up productivity which is one of the Great British | :20:49. | :20:57. | |
economic challenges. Number four. As part of our long-term economic | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
plan, the government's Charter for budget responsibility was approved | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
by Parliament on October 15 2015. It sets a path to this country's | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
long-term financial help to deliver a surplus and unlike other parties | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
in this House, we will be strong and consistent in our support for the | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
charter. The budget is on much the 16th. | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
I am grateful to my honourable friend. In 2010, but budget deficit | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
was 11.1% of GDP and this year will be down to third at 3.9% which is a | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
remarkable achievement given the economic headwinds outside the UK. | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
Could he tell the House what discussions he is having with other | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
parties, in particular the shadow frontbench, in order to reduce the | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
deficit? I thank my honourable friend for his | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
support. I have had noes to discussions so far. Or any | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
submissions from the frontbench opposite. -- no discussions. I have | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
had as a mission from Ed Balls's, head of policy who said of the | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
Shadow Chancellor's changing position, this kind of chaos less | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
than a month into the job is the kind of low ease and significant | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
political figures struggle to recover from. I agree that we need | :22:24. | :22:32. | |
to reduce the debt and the deficit but with interest rates at record | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
lows, and with the IMF forecasting investment in public and private | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
investment will fall in the league table, should we not take advantage | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
of low interest rates to in best in the creaky infrastructure, airport | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
capacity and road and rail and flood defences? -- to invest. And I | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
welcome her support for deficit, -- reduction and it is good to have her | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
back but I remind her in the last Parliament, she voted against | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
virtually every single measure of deficit reduction this Government | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
took. In terms of investment, we have a big programme of | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
infrastructure investment, 100 billion over this Parliament, | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
including transport infrastructure and other measures to help her | :23:22. | :23:23. | |
constituents and those across the country. As the IMF has been | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
mentioned, would the Minister agree the statement last week we have | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
delivered robust growth, record employment, is it never could | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
reduction in the fiscal deficit and increased financial sector | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
resilience is to be welcomed? I wonder if there is more to calm. -- | :23:44. | :23:52. | |
two, now. I thank my honourable friend for that supplementary and | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
the IMF have been clear in their endorsement of the charter for | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
budget responsibility. I say for example the transparency of the new | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
rule with a focus on headline balances and simple and well defined | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
escape clause is welcome. It commends the appropriate level of | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
flexibility in the charter. In terms of external advice taken on by the | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
party opposite, I am quite clear and it would appear from this morning's | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
session Labour MPs are extremely helpful. Sit down, a terrible waste | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
of time, long wounded, boring and unnecessary! -- long-winded. In the | :24:35. | :24:43. | |
debates at the time of the charter, I am many others warned the | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
Chancellor of the potential impact of global adverse headwinds. The | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
Chancellor responded by posting and I quote, of having an economic plan | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
that actually produces better results than forecast. Since then, | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
we have seen business investment falling, his export target receding | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
into the distance, trade deficit widened, manufacturing and | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
construction and the recession, the productivity gap the biggest in a | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
generation and last week the Chancellor tells us the economy is | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
smaller than we thought. Can I say if his economic plan is now | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
producing worse results than forecast, imposing more stealth | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
taxes and cuts in the budget will only make matters worse! We need a? | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
! Order. I said what I said because ministers responsible for answering | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
for government policy and not that of the opposition and people who ask | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
questions, from the front and backbench, pithy replies! Can I | :25:45. | :25:50. | |
thank the Shadow Chancellor for that question. The forecasts at the | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
moment still showed the UK performing extremely well with very | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
strong rates of the Chancellor was right to say over | :25:58. | :26:08. | |
the weekend we may need to undertake further reductions in spending with | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
us this country can only afford what it can afford. He said, I am | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
determined in this uncertain time we have economic security. That is what | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
people rely on. But I am equally clear it would be a fundamental | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
disaster for this country to pursue the policies he has been promoting | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
in the six months he has been Shadow Chancellor. | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
Can we address one of the domestic threats to the economy, this week, | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
the former governor of the Bank of England has warned that bankers have | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
not learned the lessons from 2008, and without reform, the financial | :26:43. | :26:50. | |
system and another crisis is certain. Will the Chancellor take | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
responsible do for the domestic responsibilities within the economy | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
that have built up under his watch, will he withdraw his proposals to | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
water down the regulatory receiving for senior bankers? -- regulatory | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
regime. Can I remind the Shadow Chancellor that over the last five | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
and a half years, it has been this government, that has been fixing the | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
problems in our banking system, and that the poor regulation, the | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
tripartite regime that we inherited from the government deviously, it is | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
us taking action. In terms of economic policy, I have to look | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
around at the Labour Party, and see what kind of reactions there are. | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
Sits down, sit down, this is about government policy, progress is | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
slower than at previous Treasury questions, please do try to stick to | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
government policy upon which briefly you can and should speak. Hugh | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
Merryman. Question five. Mr Speaker, the government wants to make | :27:50. | :27:52. | |
homeownership a reality for as many people as possible, that is why we | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
are building 400,000 new homes with extended help to buy, I can tell the | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
house that the new help to buy ice launched one year ago at the budget | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
and has been used by almost a third of a million families for saving for | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
the first time. -- ISA. That is confirmation that as a Conservative | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
government, we are on the side of the working family and home | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
ownership. 82% of buyers are using help to buy, they would not have | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
been able to buy their home without that skin, would my right honourable | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
friend agree with me that it is the Conservatives helping hard-working | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
people realise the dream of home ownership, is he aware of | :28:26. | :28:27. | |
alternative economic policies and the risks they pose to families in | :28:28. | :28:35. | |
my constituency? My honourable friend is absolutely right, 130,000 | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
people have made use of the help to buy schemes, helping people in his | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
constituency and elsewhere ago on the housing ladder, at the same time | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
we are seeking to increase supply, by building more homes that people | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
can buy, it is worth noting that first-time buyers were down under | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
50%, over 50%, over the last Labour government, 60% with us. Mr Speaker, | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
the Chancellor makes great claims for policy but in inner London, in | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
my constituency, it is a crisis, I met with the head of the CCG, we | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
have a crisis in GP recruitment, hospital doctor appointments, even | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
highly paid doctors cannot afford to get on the housing ladder, in my | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
constituency, which is causing a crisis in public services, what is | :29:20. | :29:20. | |
he going to do about that? We are doing two things about that, | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
building more homes in London than were ever built under the last | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
Labour government, and we have just introduced help to buy London so | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
that we help Londoners specifically deal with the very high cost of | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
houses in the capital. After six years as Chancellor, that he | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
confirmed, from 2010 to 2015, whether home ownership was up or | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
down? When I first became Chancellor, we were in the aftermath | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
of a collapse in the housing market, so it took a couple of years to get | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
the house-building going again, I can tell you that the house-building | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
stats are up, and the number of first-time buyers has risen by 60% | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
since I was Chancellor, down by 50% under the last Labour government. | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
There you have it, we know from the English housing survey that there | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
were 201,000 fewer households owning a home in 2015 than five years ago, | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
compare to a million increase under Labour. By 2025, nine out of ten | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
Britons under 35 on modest incomes in Britain will not be able to | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
afford a home, renting in the private sector is soaring, the | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
housing benefit bill is now likely to be 350 million more than he | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
forecast last year. Isn't it true, Mr Speaker, that his record on | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
housing investment is one of failure, with British families now | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
literally paying the price? Housing stats are higher than when I became | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
Chancellor but what people need above all as homeowners or people | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
building houses is economic security, and that is what this | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
government is seeking to deliver. Frankly, the fact that the Labour | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
Party is now getting its advice from Yanis Varoufakis, and the | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
revolutionary Marxist broadcaster Paul Mason does not suggest me that | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
they have got an answer to economic security, presumably they chose | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
those two because Chairman Mao was dead and Mickey Mouse was | :31:25. | :31:32. | |
Tax treaties provide protection for UK citizens from discriminatory tax | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
in other countries, we have one of the largest treaty networks, with | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
over 220 in force, HMRC cannot intervene where a taxpayer is in | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
dispute with a foreign entity on domestic issues, but where a treaty | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
may not apply, and is not apply properly, they can request HMRC to | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
raise the issue with the other revenue authority. My constituent, | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
David Duncan, currently being pursued by the meat and assistance | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
in the recovery of debt for a tax payment related to a time when he | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
was residing in Germany. He was working in South Korea. He had been | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
-- assured by his employer... This is a story, not a question, taking | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
far too long, one sentence: what is it?! Will the Minister advise what | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
help is available to my constituent, in terms of resolving this issue | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
between Germany and South Korea, thank you. In Minister! It depends | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
upon the nature of the dispute, if the honourable gentleman wishes to | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
write for me -- to me, I will get back to him. Alistair Carmichael. | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
Damian Hinds. The 2% duty cut in the March budget, 2015, continue to | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
support 259,000 people across the sector, including Highland park, in | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
the honourable gentleman's constituency. I thank the Minister | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
for that answer, last year, you may recall that the cuts in alcohol | :33:03. | :33:09. | |
duties would lead to a reduction of ?180 million in revenue, but in | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
fact, since April, through to January of this year, we have seen | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
?190 million increase in revenues, will he therefore look carefully at | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
the request from the Scotch whiskey industry this year for a further 2% | :33:25. | :33:31. | |
cut in duties? I know how much the sector values the cut in the duties, | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
the first since 1996, it is great to see the industry in good health with | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
a number of distilleries growing strongly and exports in other parts | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
of the world, I have received representations from the SWI, of | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
course among others in relation to the budget. Spirits, Andrew | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
Griffiths. Any change reduction in spirit duty will impact on the | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
market and other drinks such as beer! This is the government, this | :33:58. | :34:08. | |
Chancellor scrapped Labour's hated Bill yesterday, and cut it three | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
times, cut beer duty three times, more revenue for the Treasury, more | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
beer sales, and saving hundreds of pubs, will he continue that | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
supported the future? Mr Speaker, my honourable friend speaks in exactly | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
the right spirits(!)... BOOING Use the representative Burton, the | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
of beer, and nobody has done more to advocate for that particular | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
industry, that important industry, the budget is on March 16, my right | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
honourable friend makes any and all changes to duty at that such a | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
school event. Scotch whiskey is the biggest main contributor to UK trade | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
and goods, without it, the trade deficit would have been 11% larger, | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
manufacture across, including in my constituency, have experience of | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
exporting, they know that the domestic rates of tax have an impact | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
on the attitude of international markets. What consideration has the | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
Chancellor given to industry called to reduce the Excise in the upcoming | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
budget? My right honourable friend is always very alive to | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
representations from the Scotch whiskey industry, that product | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
accounts for 25% of UK food and drink exports, Japan has been a | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
strong market again for the sector. Others have not worked out so well, | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
but we always continue to listen to what that important sector has to | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
say. The employment level stands at 31.4 million, this represents more | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
people in work in the UK than ever before. Over the past year, | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
employment growth has been driven by full-time workers, and by high and | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
medium skilled occupations. This demonstrates we are now moving into | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
the next phase of our recovery, with high-quality employment, helping to | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
boost productivity, and raise living standards across the country. The | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
number of people in my constituency relying upon the other web benefits | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
in Cheltenham has fallen by 70% since 2010. Does he agree with me | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
that continuing to invest in GCHQ is key to safeguarding that progress, | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
as it supports the high-value cyber jobs in the state and crucially in | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
the civilian sector? The Chancellor announced at the spending review | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
that we would be investing in cyber, quite a lot more, and Cheltenham | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
would be seeing those benefits. Quite right to praise the employment | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
picture and performance in Cheltenham, it has seen more than | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
4000 people get into work, as well as 3000 fewer people in | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
unemployment. Across the UK as a whole, the OBE forecast an increase | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
of employment of 1.1 million, over the course of the parliament. | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
Christians against poverty have found that 72% of people who are | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
often working and on payment meters will behind on council tax and other | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
bills, what assessment has been made of the impact of this type of tariff | :37:08. | :37:14. | |
on household debt? We monitor household debt on an ongoing basis, | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
and if she has some specific cases that she would like to show me, I am | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
sure we can look at those and pass those onto DWP and others. I do have | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
to say that overall, the point picture remains extremely strong. We | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
have unemployment rate of 74.1%, and since the first quarter, UK | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
employment rate has grown more than in any other G-7 country. What more | :37:38. | :37:45. | |
support than the Chancellor given terms of pension to the | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
self-employed, given recent trends suggest that in five years' time, | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
4.7 million people will be self-employed and will not benefit | :37:52. | :37:59. | |
from further involvement. That is an interesting point, and in terms of | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
helping the self-employed, that is one of the key priorities of this | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
government, and we will have to see what is in the budget on March 16. | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
Is the Minister aware that I, like many members here, represent a | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
university town, and the University is one of the best employers and the | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
biggest employers in my constituency, universities up and | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
down the country are terrified that if we left the EU, the amount of | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
grant, we get most money for research, any country in Britain, | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
full research, and research collaboration, our universities | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
would be destroyed by leaving the EU. I join the honourable gentleman | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
in campaigning for the UK to remain a member of the EU, and that is the | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
right thing for us to do, both for the public finances overall and for | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
the future of the UK economy. As the 220 communique made their over the | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
weekend. It may also have an impact on university sector, which I'm sure | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
will be one of the questions that will feature in the forthcoming | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
debate leading into the referendum. Lawrence Robinson Battenberg | :39:09. | :39:15. | |
Robertson. Question number nine. Equitable Life payment scheme has | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
now successfully traced and paid 90% of eligible policyholders. Payments | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
will continue for the life of these annuities. -- Laurence Robertson. | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
Laurence Robertson. I thank the Minister for that response but given | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
because of regulatory failure many policyholders lost out, that should | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
be overseen by government, any government, not just this | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
government, isn't it fair that those policyholders should receive | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
compensation and if they do not, how can any invest in the future have | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
any confidence in the regulatory system which is put in place. Of | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
course, this Chancellor has done more than anyone else to tackle the | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
regulatory failure of the 1990s with regards to Equitable Life, for | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
example, with profits in your attention will receive full | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
compensation for the life of the annuity, and pre-1992 NU attends | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
will receive excavation payments of up to ?10,000, and ?775 million has | :40:12. | :40:19. | |
been paid out tax-free to others despite the constraint public | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
finances. -- annuitants. Those on pension benefit got a doubling. What | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
about the ?1.5 billion that has been delivered by the government, has it | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
been handed over? I regularly update Parliament in terms of those precise | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
figures, and so far, we are at almost ?1 billion, the payments in | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
terms of the new attends will continue for the lives of those | :40:47. | :40:56. | |
annuitants. -- annuitants. The government is cutting taxes to | :40:57. | :40:58. | |
encourage small businesses to grow, corporation tax will fall to 19% in | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
2017, 18% 2020, the lowest energy 20, employed allowance will rise by | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
15% this April, giving a 3000 discount on the national insurance | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
contributions, and the seed enterprise investment scheme will be | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
investing in early-stage companies, helping more than 2900 companies | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
raise over ?250 million. Does them and is to agree, that impressive | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
package for small business will equip them to benefit from the | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
ascension of the single market, as negotiated by the Prime Minister, | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
including energy and services, and that is even more of an emphatic | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
case to remain in the European Union? What I would say demand for | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
friend: -- what I would say to my honourable | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
friend, there is more than 100,000 firms employing fewer than 50 | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
people, exporting goods to the European Union, we want to assist | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
them, access to the single market is important to them and to those | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
businesses and the 800,000 people they employ. | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
Plans to move toward quarterly online tax reporting are proving to | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
be deeply unpopular with small businesses. Can the Chancellor | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
confirmed the impacts on administration costs? | :42:11. | :42:19. | |
Overall, the government is clear HMRC's target is to reduce the | :42:20. | :42:27. | |
burden on businesses by ?400 million by the end of this Parliament and | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
moving towards a digital taxation system can help businesses reduce | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
costs. We are consulting on the details but I want to make it | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
absolutely clear there will be no quarterly tax returns. This has been | :42:42. | :42:53. | |
wrongly reported in some cases. The government has committed to | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
raise the personal allowance to ?12,500 and the higher rate | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
threshold to ?50,000 by the end of this Parliament. At the summer | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
budget, the gunman took the first steps by increasing the personal | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
allowance to ?11,000 and raising the higher rate threshold to ?43,000 in | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
2016-17, less people will pay tax after these charges and 570,000 will | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
be taken out of income tax altogether. Does the Chancellor | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
agree it is better to encourage saving by increasing the tax limit | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
on pensions rather than reducing it, especially when savings struggle to | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
get decent returns? As a government, we want to encourage more saving. We | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
have taken steps for reforming our tax system so pensions become more | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
attractive, but we also need to ensure the cost of pension tax | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
relief is targeted in the right direction. | :43:54. | :44:01. | |
Number 14, please. Mr Speaker, on productivity, the blood has product | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
-- has published its plan, fixing the foundations. The plan outlines | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
the steps to encourage further investment in the drivers of | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
productivity growth including science, education, skills and | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
infrastructure. It also sets out the way the government promotes a | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
dynamic economy through reforming planning laws, boosting competition | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
and creating a Northern powerhouse. According to the latest figures from | :44:32. | :44:41. | |
the ONS, UK productivity measured by output 18 percentage points below | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
the average for the rest of the G-7 economies. The widest gap since | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
records began. Which is productivity deteriorating under this Chancellor? | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
I do not accept that, we do except productivity is a problem. But | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
productivity output per hour is 0.7% higher than its precrisis peak. I do | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
improving at the moment. We do need to do more which is why we have laid | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
out a national productivity plan with a set of key targets and areas | :45:15. | :45:22. | |
like research of infrastructure, and infrastructure Commission, cutting | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
corporation tax and a lot more besides. | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
Topical questions, Kirsten Oswald. Number one, Mr Speaker. The purpose | :45:31. | :45:39. | |
of the Treasury is to ensure the productivity and stability of the | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
economy. Did he have a chance to read the | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
Audit Office report on financial services miss selling and is it a | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
missed opportunity to deliver a financial advice sector protecting | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
small sale investors when things go wrong as they did with a number of | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
issues for my constituents. We have tried to increase consumer | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
protection by increasing the powerful detection agency and | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
providing greater financial advice to individuals like the money advice | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
service and pension wise but if she has specific further ideas, I would | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
be happy to look at them. With the government making some of | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
the biggest investments in road and rail in history, is my right | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
honourable friend aware of any alternative investment policies and | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
the impact it would have on economic security, in particular the Southern | :46:33. | :46:37. | |
powerhouse? She is right to draw attention to the big investment in | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
our nation's infrastructure, especially transport, with the | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
biggest rail programme since the Victorian age and biggest road | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
programme since the 1970s. She has seen that in her area. Having an | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
economic policy destroying confidence in the British economy | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
would mean no investment. The OECD have estimated tax havens | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
cost developing countries three times the global aid budgets. Does | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
the Chancellor share my frustration that the UK overseas territories | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
have ignored the pleas of the Prime Minister to introduce beneficial | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
ownership registers? What more can be done to end the secrecy and lack | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
of action? It is the case the UK is leading the | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
way in terms of a public register of beneficial ownership. Other | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
countries including the overseas territories have not committed to | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
that and we engage with them. We do believe they should follow in the | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
direction we have as other country should do. | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
Tackling the deficit should rightly be a priority for the country. Can | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
my right honourable friend say what steps he is taking to ensure | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
everybody pays that their share in meeting the objectives? | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
He is absolutely right that we want to make sure this is done fairly and | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
under this Government, the richest pay a higher proportion of income | :48:05. | :48:06. | |
tax than under the last Labour government. The numbers have come | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
out this morning which for the first time showed the income tax data for | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
the year 2013-14 when the 50p rate was reduced to 45p, which shows | :48:19. | :48:27. | |
there was an ?8 billion increase in revenues and additional rate | :48:28. | :48:29. | |
taxpayers. Which defies the predictions made by the Labour Party | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
at the time. It shows what we have is lower competitive taxes paid by | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
everybody. Figures from the PCS union showed | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
2,000 HMRC staff in Scotland face redundancy including 150 experienced | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
and dedicated people in Inverness. At the same time, the overtime bill | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
is around ?6 million per month. Can the Chancellor explain to my | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
constituents how this makes any sense at all? HMRC are engaged in | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
changes to focus on 13 regional centres across the UK. The same | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
proportion of the workforce will continue to be in Scotland, as is | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
the case now. A larger percentage than the population of Scotland. | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
What we look to do with HMRC is to improve efficiency. We do believe | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
regional centres will enable it to achieve more for less. It already | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
gets more money in and a better rate of return than ever before. | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
Around 40,000 people in my constituency had benefited from the | :49:42. | :49:43. | |
rise in the personal allowance since 2010, can he confirm the government | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
will continue to help hard-working people keep all of the money they | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
earn? That is what this Government was | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
elected to deliver and we have manifesto commitments to deliver not | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
just a ?50,000 threshold for the higher rate but a ?12,500 personal | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
allowance so more people can see the benefit of either paying no tax or | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
less tax if they are better paid. Can the chance lack advise when he | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
will publish the proposals for the distribution and calculation of the | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
apprenticeship Levi to devolved nations and whether the nations have | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
agreed to its -- levy. We are working to get those big O Shea she | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
was right and they are complex because of the single levy rate. We | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
are having good discussions with the Scottish government and with the | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
fiscal charter, we can work together for the benefits of the United | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
Kingdom. I welcome the fact my constituents | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
have been given more control over their finances thanks to changes | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
implemented by the government. Can the Minister advise what steps will | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
be taken to ensure regulation the small High Street financial advisers | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
and insurance brokers is both there and proportion at giving the | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
important services they provide? -- there. Can I thank him for raising | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
this point? We have launched the financial advice market review the | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
report around the time of the budget. We will make financial | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
advice more affordable and available. And we will get the right | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
regulatory balance for small firms. With reports include points the | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
basis that the delays, will he be visit his decision to write the | :51:27. | :51:34. | |
French and option and return with fallback options? We are working | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
with the French government and the signs are they are committed to this | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
project. I think this is a very good example of how the UK working with | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
friends and attracting investment from Asia is getting a new | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
generation of nuclear power under way -- brands. That was promised for | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
more than 20 years and has not happened and will now take place in | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
Somerset. Proud to have been part of a | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
government which introduced the national living wage but I wonder if | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
he has looked at the British Retail Consortium report, retail Twenty20, | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
which talks about that and the impact of internet shopping? I did | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
see that report yesterday and I think we have to accept in this | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
House the retail industry faces an enormous amount of change especially | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
because of what is happening on the in the net and the way people have | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
been shopping online. One of the biggest changes we can make is to | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
allow stores to open on a Sunday which is the biggest single day for | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
internet shopping. We cannot at the same time say we want to protect our | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
High Street and say they cannot open on one day of the week when the | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
internet is open 24 hours a day. We will vote on that next week. The | :52:51. | :52:58. | |
statement referred to the UK seeking a multilateral agreement on making | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
tax paid by companies publicly available. Can he say what measures | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
he will take to achieve that and on what timetable? And will he admit | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
his Google Tech still was not a great success and accept the Public | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
Accounts Committee call for full transparency? The Public Accounts | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
Committee have investigated deals and they welcome to so again. They | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
gave the HMRC a clean bill of health on its approach. We are introducing | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
the country by country reporting, regulations came into force last | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
week. They only happen because this Prime Minister put it on the agenda | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
in this country and internationally and I have been calling both for the | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
EU and at the due 24 that be an international agreement so we know | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
what companies pay in different jurisdictions rather than just | :53:52. | :53:59. | |
reading reports. -- and at the G20. The local economy in my constituency | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
comprises thousands of small businesses, can he offer | :54:04. | :54:05. | |
encouragement to the Federation of Small Businesses which is pressing | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
for tax amplification to reduce the burden of tax administration on | :54:10. | :54:18. | |
small businesses? What I would say is one of the areas I do think we | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
can make progress on is in terms of the digitalisation of the tax system | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
which can help a lot businesses. And the office of tax and publication | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
has been strengthened, looking forward to seeing a couple of | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
reports over the next days in terms of what we can do to help small | :54:39. | :54:46. | |
businesses in particular. When services have been removed from | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
local authority control and centralised in England, they had | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
been granted the right to claim VAT. Does the Chancellor not accept that | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
the refusal to grant that rate the Police Scotland, leaving them as the | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
only UK force that pays VAT, just looks vindictive? To be fair, it was | :55:05. | :55:12. | |
made perfectly clear what the position was in terms of reclaiming | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
VAT. When the decision was made by the Scottish government to go down | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
this course. The UK government is simply pursuing a policy that we | :55:23. | :55:29. | |
always said we would pursue. The Chancellor will be aware debates | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
have been held and questions in the House regarding serious allegations | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
of collusion between banks to deliberately undervalued assets | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
overseas. Has my right honourable friend considered the current | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
regulations and whether there needs to be a broader remit for the SFO | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
and other organisations to investigate the serious and growing | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
number of allegations? I am aware of the points he is raising in | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
Westminster Hall. And I am very keen in our system that we have a tough | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
set of rules in terms of conduct in the banking system. And I would | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
welcome the opportunity to meet with him and to discuss these specific | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
allegations in more detail. If the Chancellor believes that | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
strong steel sector is fundamental to a strong Northern powerhouse, | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
what steps is he taking the level the playing field for the steel | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
industry, the foundation of our manufacturing and defence industries | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
so we can have a prosperous future to match a prosperous past? | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
Of course, the steel industry faces a big challenge at the moment, and | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
that is true in many other countries in the world, as the price of steel | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
has collapsed, we have taken a number of steps to ensure a level | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
playing Friel that piece speaks of, taking them out of the energy | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
levies, proposing additional costs on them, making sure that local | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
areas that have had redundancies get the support they need. -- level | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
playing field that he speaks of. Making sure that we are buying | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
British Steel and taking into account the social impact of the | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
steel purchases in making value for money assessments. Full, as I have | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
said in reply to an earlier question, working through partners | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
in the you to make it clear that we do not and cannot support Chinese | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
steel dumping and we need to take action against it. My right | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
honourable friend the Chancellor is well aware of the widespread and | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
cross-party support for a children's specialist accident and trauma | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
department at Southampton General Hospital, can I urge him to give | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
careful consideration to what is being put together by clinicians, I | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
know they have sent to him, they are looking for support from a match | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
funding bid. I am aware of the case being made, a very strong case, in | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
my view, for the children's facilities at the Southampton | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
hospital, the case advanced by her and other colleagues of mine | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
including notably the member for Winchester that has boosted | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
alongside her, it is something we are looking closely at and I will | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
make an announcement into course. If I can follow the member in raising | :58:07. | :58:14. | |
the key on the apprenticeship levy, the devolved governments are moving | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
towards elections, we need to know as soon as possible, and will there | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
be a Barnett Formula consequential on the back of it as well? Our | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
intention is to use the principles of the Barnett Formula, to make sure | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
that the devolved administration not just in Scotland but in Northern | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
Ireland get the resources they need. We would urge them to spend those | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
resources on training, ultimately it is a matter for them and the people | :58:39. | :58:46. | |
they are accountable to. Given the importance of family investment in | :58:47. | :58:48. | |
start-up business, particularly science and technology business are | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
often a leap of faith is required, will the Chancellor consider lifting | :58:55. | :58:56. | |
the restrictions on family investment in the EE ISN SCIS | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
scheme, so that mother and father can invest alongside everybody else | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
on the same terms. I'm happy to take that as a budget representation, I'm | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
sure that he will say that if it ends up on budget day, he will see. | :59:12. | :59:21. | |
-- EIS and SCIS. They are schemes that have been enormously | :59:22. | :59:23. | |
successful, we need to make sure that they are tight enough, rather | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
than used as a vehicle for tax avoidance, we have the balance right | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
so far, but I'm aware of good positive proposals that people have | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
put forward to improve it. Mr Skinner? Not at the moment, no? | :59:36. | :59:43. | |
No... Fair enough. Helen Goodman. The Chancellor chose to give a path | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
to his desire to Sunday trading liberalisation, I would like to ask | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
him if he is aware of the study produced yesterday, which showed | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
that all that there will be is a switch of activity from small shops | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
to big shops, meaning a loss of thousands of jobs. The honourable | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
member the Litchfield says that he has already done that question, as I | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
have often had cause to observe, repetition is not a novel | :00:11. | :00:12. | |
phenomenon! LAUGHTER To repeat myself... I do not think I | :00:13. | :00:20. | |
agree with the honourable lady. It has been the case that when we have | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
extended opening hours, we have not seen a displacement of jobs, we have | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
seen an increase, that is the response from the retail industry. | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
These arrangements exist in Scotland and many European countries and the | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
US. Many which are countries with strong Christian faiths. I do not | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
think there is a contradiction and we worry about our high street, and | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
then do not allow high street stores to open on the day when you have the | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
biggest Internet shopping taking place of all. It is one of the | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
answer to helping the high street, not the only one, but it is an | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
important one. North and North East Lincolnshire councils are currently | :01:04. | :01:05. | |
preparing detailed regeneration plans. Can the Chancellor assure me | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
that he will give serious consideration to these, so that my | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
constituents can gain maximum benefit from the northern powerhouse | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
initiative. We will give careful consideration, as I always do, to | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
the proposals that he comes forward with, to support North Lincolnshire | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
and his own constituency. And of course, we have been able to make | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
investments in new roads, and make the tolls on the Humber Bridge, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
enterprise ends, any new ideas he has got I would love to see them! | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
Happy Saint Davids Day to you. The Chancellor often talks about | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
repairing the roof when the sun is shining, amassing $810 billion in an | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
oil fund when the sun shone, in Scotland, how much did the broad | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
shoulders of the UK say for moments like this to help the north-east of | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
Scotland, is the figure indeed zero! We are providing support to | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
Scotland, support that is entrenched in the fiscal framework that we have | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
agreed with the government. He cannot duck his responsibilities, he | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
wanted Scotland to be independent on the 24th of March, this month. And | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
if we had gone ahead with that, if the Scottish people had voted for | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
it, there would have been a fiscal catastrophe in Scotland, because oil | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
revenues have fallen by over 90%. We had a question from an earlier | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
Scottish nationalist... Order, order... It is a very unseemly | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
mystic elation from the honourable gentleman... I remind him of his | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
status in this house, as the chair of a select committee! He is an | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
aspiring statesman, and he must conduct himself accordingly. -- | :02:50. | :02:59. | |
gesticulation. In response to an earlier question about productivity, | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
the right honourable member mentioned the drivers of growth | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
being investment in science and technology, does he, like me, | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
welcomed the government commitment to train 17 and a half thousand more | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
teachers in stem, and also, does he think that there is no time to waste | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
in recruiting those teachers. -- 17,000 500. -- in STEM. This is one | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
of the big national challenges, to get more children studying STEM and | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
the key is to get more STEM teachers and we need more girls studying STEM | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
as well. Schools have the tools to recruit teachers themselves. We must | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
move on, demand invariably exceeds supply, nobody is keen to facilitate | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
questions than I, but we do need pithy questions and pithy answers. | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
Urgent question, Joe Cox. I call the Parliamentary | :03:56. | :04:12. | |
undersecretary of state, Tobias Ellwood. Thank you, Mr Speaker, the | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
Syrian conflict is now almost in its sixth year, as a result of the | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
brutality of Bashar al-Assad and the terror of Daesh, over 250,000 people | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
have lost their lives, half of the population has been displaced, over | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
13 million people are in need of humanitarian aid. Russia's military | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
intervention last autumn has compounded the violence. Russia's | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
claims to be targeting terrorists have carried out strikes on moderate | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
opposition groups and civilians. Over 1300 civilians have been | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
killed, over 5800 have been injured by Russia, or regime air strikes, | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
since the start of Russia's campaign. Our goal is that Syria | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
becomes a stable, a peaceful state, with an inclusive government, | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
capable of protecting its people from Daesh and other extremists. | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
Only when this happens can stability be returned to the region, when this | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
is necessary, to stem the flow of people fleeing Syria, and seeking | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
refuge in Europe. The last few months have seen some progress | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
towards this, the International Syria support group them together at | :05:26. | :05:33. | |
the end of 2015, in Vienna, to help facilitate a return to the process, | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
leading to a political transition in Syria. In December, opposition | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
groups came together to form the high negotiations commission, | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
representing the widest possible range of opposition views, and has | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
nominated a team to negotiate with the regime. But omitted talks | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
between the regime and opposition began under UN auspices in January. | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
They will pause as a result of the deteriorating situation on the | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
ground. The ISS G met again, in Munich, at the Munich Security | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
conference, on the 11th of February, agreeing that there should be a | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
cessation of facilities, and humanitarian access, to named | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
locations, in Syria. Since then, the US and Russia has agreed at the | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
highest levels on the terms of hesitation of hostilities. This | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
agreement was codified in the UN Security Council is resolution. -- | :06:33. | :06:42. | |
cessation of hostilities. -- UN Security Council resolution. This is | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
an important step to ending the terrible violence in Syria and | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
bringing a lasting political settlement. The cessation came into | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
force on the 27th of February, since then, we have seen a reduction in | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
violence, which is of course a huge step forward. We need to see this | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
sustained, and to see a reduction in the number of reported violations. | :07:03. | :07:09. | |
We have received reports of a number of violations, which we have passed | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
on the UN, and ISS G co-chairs in Vienna. We need swift action to | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
reduce these violations, and we look to Russia, in particular, to use its | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
influence with the regime, to insure that the cessation endures, and that | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
there is no further violations. -- ISSG. It is crucial that the | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
opposition see action being taken in response to allegations of | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
violations to ensure their commitment, and that of their Syrian | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
constituents to the process. It is essential that the cessation of | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
facilities supports the wider political process. We support the UN | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
special envoy, and his plans to resume peace negotiations on the 7th | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
of March. These negotiations must deliver a political transition away | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
from Bashar al-Assad to a legitimate government that is able to support | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
the needs and aspirations of all Syrians and put an end to the | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
suffering of the Syrian people. At the same time, we call for complete | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
and unfettered human Terry and access across Syria and an end to | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
all violations of international humanitarian law. As set out in the | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
United Nations Security Council resolution to 254. We are relieved | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
that desperately needed aid convoys are now arriving in some besieged | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
areas of Syria, including those named in the Munich ISSG agreement | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
of the 11th of February. -- UN Security Council resolution 2254. It | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
is important that this continues. Russia has a unique influence, | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
pressure must be put on the regime of Bashar al-Assad to lift sieges | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
and grant full and sustained humanitarian access. -- imperative | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
that this continues. There must be a political solution to the rises in | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
Syria, it is imperative that these steps that I have described are then | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
fermented by all parties and that the cessation of hostilities in | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
jurors. The UK is working strenuously to make sure this | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
happens and will continue to do so. -- endures. Thank you for granting | :09:22. | :09:32. | |
this update to the house on such a vital issue, the cessation of | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
facilities, which began on Friday, is a much-needed ray of hope in this | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
tragic Civil War, as the minister has set out, it faces serious | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
challenges after growing reports from international NGOs and the | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
media of numerous violations of the truce, it was close to collapse on | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
the weekend apparently, and the French government has asked for a | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
meeting of the monitoring group, amid allegations that Syrian and | :09:59. | :10:00. | |
Russian forces have breached its terms. In this context, can and is | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
to set out specifically what action the UK is taking, within the | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
international support group, to ensure there is robust and | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
transparent monitoring of the cessation agreement? Secondly, is | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
the UK joining efforts led by France, for urgent action within the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
ISSG, on the growing reports of violations of the cessation | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
agreement, by Bashar al-Assad and Russia. Indeed, can the Minister | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
address how it is even conceivable that the monitoring of this | :10:29. | :10:31. | |
agreement is being jointly conducted by Russia, the same part of it | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
responsible for the vast majority of recent civilian deaths. If the | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
reports of Russian and regime violations are verified, what | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
measures will the UK pursued to force a change in the calculations | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
of both Vladimir Putin and Bashar al-Assad, the UK has a critical | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
role, Mr Speaker, to play in giving everybody confidence in this system, | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
in particular, violations will be called out and agreements protected. | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
Is the government considering further targeted sanctions against | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
Russian entities, in the event of further violations? Further, what is | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
the UK's assessment of the mobilisation of Bashar al-Assad's | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
forces and militias to encircle Aleppo is this a direct violation of | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
the cessation agreement? And can the Minister confirm that those areas | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
where al-Nusra, or any other Security Council designated | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
terrorist group, are mixed with the moderate opposition, these areas are | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
covered by the cessation agreement. And if this is Asian holds this | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
week, can you also confirmed that negotiations on political transition | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
will be at the very top of the agenda at the meeting in Geneva next | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
week. And finally, in light of the reduction of islands, it is still a | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
matter of deep concern to many members of the house at the lack of | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
access to besieged areas, inside Syria, in particular, just outside | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
of Damascus, where people are starving to death. There is no Isil | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
or al-Nusra in that town, it is unacceptable that the Bashar | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
al-Assad regime with the backing of Russia is preventing this | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
life-saving aid, paid for by the taxpayer to get to the most | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
vulnerable. Does the government or its partners have a deadline by | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
which aid will reach that town and other besieged areas? | :12:17. | :12:25. | |
Can I pray tribute to her, then -- can I pay tribute to her | :12:26. | :12:35. | |
commencement? I pay tribute to the work she does and the way she raises | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
these matters. I will do my best and I will write to her with more | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
detail. I am pleased to see I am joined and supported by Mike | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
colleagues and from the Ministry of Defence colleagues. They hosted the | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
Syria conference a couple of weeks ago to make sure that funds were | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
available for the United Nations organisations to get to the | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
necessary areas to provide the aid and assistance once the cessation of | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
hostilities has taken place. There has been different levels of success | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
and trucks getting through. We have two get confirmation from the regime | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
itself that the trucks can get safe passage. There has been the use of | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
air drops for the first time which has been less accessible for obvious | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
reasons, who receives the kit on the ground, the weather conditions, | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
where they land, ownership is difficult but further drops will | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
take place in the future as well. What more can be done? It is | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
imperative that those putting together the ceasefire itself which | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
is at the highest levels, from telephone calls between President | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
Putin and President Obama, coordinating and creating the | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
verification model itself. That is not fully in place and this is | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
highly complex because of the number of players involved across Syria. | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
And the challenges of making sure verification is can take place. The | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
UK is pushing the co-chairs to investigate all allegations and | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
using our own capabilities to feed any violations we have become aware | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
of so they can be investigated. We have said additional staff to the UN | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
in Geneva to assist in this advert as well. And negotiating and | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
discussing these matters with our UN Security Council colleagues as well. | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
She talks about the difficulties in Aleppo and this is concerning, and | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
what is happening in the build-up to the cessation of hostilities, people | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
taking advantage before the cessation came into place on | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
February 27. As I said, it is imperative that Russia shows this | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
leadership and that it recognises it has a unique place and influence | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
with the Assad regime to make sure the purpose is to allow that | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
political transition. She asks about the talks taking place, that is on | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
the 7th of March and is critical to get those parties together. They | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
broke apart last time because of the bombing that took place. It was the | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
UN envoy that closed the meeting down before somebody walked out | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
again. We do not want to see that repeated and we encourage parties to | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
resume those discussions and take advantage of the truce in place at | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
the moment and we hope they are successful. | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
Notwithstanding the honourable lady's and central -- understand or | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
scepticism about Russian intentions, this ceasefire would not have | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
happened if it had not been pushed for hard by the Russians alongside | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
the United States. The Minister referred to verification methods, | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
what practical military to military coordination is going on between the | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
Russians and the coalition to ensure any breaches of the ceasefire will | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
be immediately understood and brought to an end as soon as | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
possible so the ceasefire is correctly observed without accidents | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
and either side not knowing what the other is doing? The chairman of the | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
Foreign Affairs Select Committee raises an important point which I | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
can divide into two. There is a deep conviction system which makes sure | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
coalition aircraft and involvement is separated from that of Russian | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
involvement and that has been in place some time. This is a | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
verification mechanism of the cessation of hostilities. The | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
process has yet to be put in place. It is still being agreed between the | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
co-chairs, between Russia and the United States and details will | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
emerge soon. I very much welcome the urgent | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
question by my right honourable friend and I would like to pay | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
tribute to her excellent work in this area. The world community is | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
watching this ceasefire very closely and we want it to be successful, not | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
least to allow humanitarian aid into areas blighted by the conflict. And | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
to give a boost to the tentative peace talks. As the ceasefire has | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
been in operation a couple of days, I would like to ask a number of | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
questions. The letter from the Syrian higher national council to | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
bank e-mailing alleges 15 breaches of the ceasefire by Russia and the | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
Assad regime. France called for an urgent meeting of the Syrian | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
national support group, when will this group B meeting and what powers | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
does it have to make a ruling on breaches of the ceasefire and does | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
it need unanimity to do so? Amongst reported breaches, the most worrying | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
was a report of a gas attack in the urban area with indications of a | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
link to the Assad regime. Can he confirm whether the UK government is | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
aware of the attack and what special provisions are in place to | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
investigate chemical weapons attacks? One key problem is a lack | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
of agreement on which groups are terror organisations and what action | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
is allowed. Can he explain whether this will be discussed at the Syria | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
international support group. And to address the humanitarian system, we | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
need accessed areas without hostilities so can the Minister | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
explain what steps have been taken to establish the geographical | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
demarcation of the ceasefire? Over the past six months, Russia have | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
repeatedly acted to prolong this conflict so can I ask the Minister | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
what discussions there have been with allies in the EU to put | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
pressure on Russia to abide by the ceasefire? And Saudi Arabia also has | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
a key position of influence. It especially concerning to hear of a | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
possible Saudi response to Russian action. Has the Minister made any | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
representations to the Saudi government about this? And can I ask | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
about the status of the group which were not a signature to the | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
ceasefire but had indicated they would abide by it? They now claim | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
their headquarters were attacked by Russian air strikes. A claim backed | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
up by several sources. Can the Minister confirm whether this group | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
is considered to be outside of the terms of the ceasefire by the UK and | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
the US? The honourable lady asks a series of | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
questions. This week, the purpose of this latest UN Security Council | :20:04. | :20:11. | |
resolution to 268 was confirmed and underlines the importance of a | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
previous resolution about the access and ability to gain access into | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
different areas where ownership is sometimes confusing. What happens is | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
it is done on a very local basis to make sure agreements have taken | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
place so UN convoys can go through and they have the series of | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
permissions and do not get stopped by the checkpoints, and the food is | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
used as a weapon of war and taken away. It is difficult to give a | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
comprehensive reply. But it is done on an area by area basis. And the | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
method the delivery is taken is done by the threat level. There are areas | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
surrounded by Daesh and it is impossible to have these agreements. | :20:58. | :21:00. | |
She spoke about the chemical weapons attack. There is a number of UN | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
organisations looking into a wider use of chemical weapons across | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
Syria. They just in the of completing a report which will | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
appear at the United Nations shortly and I will contact her with more | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
details on that. In relation to the works being done in order to provide | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
international humanitarian aid, I go back to the conference we had where | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
we were able to garner a lot of support including from Saudi Arabia | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
to make sure money is filtered through to the UN organisations, to | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
make sure they have access to get through to the various locations. | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
The agreements she mentions, a number of other organisations and | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
groups she mentions. These have not been considered as part of the | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
moderate packages. They have not been included in the discussions and | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
will not be represented as part of the talks when the Saudis brought | :22:03. | :22:13. | |
the moderate groups together. May I ask where the Foreign Secretary is? | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
I know he is very busy but the House of Commons must come first. We are | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
in need of an explanation. Make a suggest the Labour and Conservative | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
establishments, whether we are talking about Qaddafi or Assad, have | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
merely provided an opening for four worst totalitarian movements. It is | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
arguable we have had little influence at all in this latest row | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
in peace negotiations as the Americans cosy up to the Russians. | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
So will the Foreign Office except now there is some merit in Assad | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
being allowed to go gracefully although elections are never | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
perfect? Firstly, Mr Speaker, can I say I will not take it personally my | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
honourable friend feels I am not adequate to respond to the questions | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
today. I would say this has been an urgent question. The Foreign | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
Secretary was not able to get here but I will certainly do my best to | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
convey the fact my honourable friend would love to have been in place | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
instead of myself. With regards to the transition process, we ended the | :23:19. | :23:25. | |
year in 2015 after five years of hostility were for the first time, | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
we had opposition groups coming together. For the first time, we had | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
the international stakeholders including Saudi Arabia and Iran | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
around the table discussing these matters at the Vienna talks. First | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
time a transition process was to Scotland. The first time an 18 month | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
process was being put into place and the first time life after Assad was | :23:49. | :23:54. | |
considered. It is important to recognise it must be for the people | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
of Syria to decide their fake. All the people of Syria, Kurds, soon | :23:59. | :24:11. | |
ease. -- Sunnis. 80% of the deaths in Syria have been caused by Assad | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
and his regime and so we say it would be inappropriate for him to | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
participate in the long-term of the country, but it will be, the purpose | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
of bringing these organisations together to discuss the Democratic | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
process, they will decide the process which will be a transition | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
away from Assad. Can I join the chairman of the | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
Select Committee in urging that the correct policy of the government is | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
to give every facility to the rapid establishment of verification | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
regime? We can engage in the foot at allegations about who is breaching | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
what but this is the only ceasefire we have got. Repair -- reports this | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
morning from Kurdish forces about our Nato Allied using the | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
opportunity to build forces against them, so establishment of | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
verification process is key. Can the Minister tell us in more detail | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
about the urgency of attempts to bring humanitarian relief, which | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
convoys have been allowed, which had been stopped, which air strikes have | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
been successful and not? Given the overwhelming urgency of the | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
humanitarian crisis, the House would appreciate the exact detail and if | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
he could find a way to facilitate that for members. | :25:29. | :25:37. | |
I have gone into detail, Mr Speaker, about the urgency of the | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
humanitarian relief and this is one reason why a cessation of | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
hostilities was needed. We have seen in places like the day, people have | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
resorted to eating pets and animals, such is the plight of their concern. | :25:50. | :25:58. | |
Thanks to the first agreements arranged by John Kerry at the Munich | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
Security conference which led to discussions between Putin and | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
President Obama, we have seen this build-up in cessation of austerity | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
is. I was cautiously optimistic when I saw President Putin break into and | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
make a row live television appearance on Russian television | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
stating his commitment to ensuring a cessation of hostilities came into | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
place. However, experience shows and I am sure the right honourable | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
gentleman is aware that whenever you ceasefire and cessation of | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
hostilities, when a deadline is put in, there is a measure, an effort by | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
hardliners and opportunists to take advantage of the time period before | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
the deadline is in place to gain territory, to further their lines | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
and make a greater impact. So when the hostilities cease, they are in a | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
stronger position, and that is what we have seen. What we require is | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
every country, Turkey, Russia, the Assad regime, to hold fast, to allow | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
and recognise the world is watching. The humanitarian situation is dire | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
but there is an international community that wants to help. That | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
can only help if it has access to the areas I have articulated | :27:20. | :27:20. | |
earlier. Is there any evidence whatsoever | :27:21. | :27:30. | |
that Bashar al-Assad would be willing to go graciously or not, and | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
is not all of the evidence showing that he is determined to stay in | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
power? As far as Russia is concerned, again, would it not be | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
right to come to the conclusion that it has never been interested in | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
using its military might against Daesh, first and foremost, it wants | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
to consolidate in every possible way regime of Bashar al-Assad, which as | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
ministers say has been responsible for some of the worst crimes which | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
have been committed in the last 25 or 30 years, Russia has a large | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
moral responsibility for what is a caring on the ground. -- occurring. | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
I partly agree with the honourable gentleman, he makes it very clear as | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
I have done, the atrocities that Bashar al-Assad has incurred, that | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
is why we believe there is no long-term place for him in this. | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
What has happened is a recognition that there must be a transition | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
process, it must be clear, it is not just Bashar al-Assad we should be | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
talking about, it is Bashar al-Assad and his cohorts, his family and so | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
on, they have a firm grip at the top of the regime itself, it simply is | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
not possible to remove the individual man and assume that life | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
can move on, it is far more complex. As I'm sure the honourable gentleman | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
will be aware. We should also recognise, and this is no excuse for | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
the behaviour of Russia, it has had a long-term interest in the country | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
since 1946, when it began to train the new Syrian army, when Syria | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
gained independence. Syria backed the Soviets during the Cold War, | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
Bashar al-Assad's father trained as a Mick pilot, there is a bond | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
between the country we cannot ignore. | :29:15. | :29:27. | |
The people of Syria deserve better than this. Dodgers won grouping, all | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
of the area, not just one specific sectarian area. Government has | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
placed importance on the moderates taking an Bashar al-Assad to swing | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
around and take the ground battle to Daesh, given that we all accept air | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
strikes. It is becoming increasingly evident that there is too many | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
aircraft chasing too few targets. What progress for those blinds, and | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
is the government still convinced that there is 70,000 moderates left. | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
This question has been raised before, about the 70,000, and it is | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
an estimate, we can understand that this is a very divisive group of | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
people that have been standing up to Bashar al-Assad since the Arab | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
Spring. Pockets of resistance which have a choice, when Bashar al-Assad | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
began to bomb and kill his own people, to go extremist, | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
fundamentalist, or say, no, I want something different, I do not want | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
to be part of this party, I want the freedoms that I am seeing developing | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
in other parts of the other arable world as well. They are distant, | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
from Aleppo to Idlib through parts of Damascus, to Dara town, these are | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
pockets of elements, people who stood up, and they are the ones that | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
need to come together and have come together through the talks that have | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
taken place, thanks to the leadership of Saudi Arabia. -- | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
Daraa. And they are now participating in the Geneva talks as | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
well. They are not united in the sense we would like them to be, but | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
they are moving forward, and they need to be part of the process that | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
works out what the country looks like post-Bashar al-Assad. The | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
people of Syria have paid a dreadful price, in my view, for our failure | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
to act, both three years ago, after Bashar al-Assad use chemical weapons | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
against his own people, but even sooner. Want to ask about another | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
glimmer of hope, elections in Iran, and the impact they may have, in | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
particular in the Middle East, and whether or not he thinks that what | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
has happened in Iran indicates the policy that he and the previous | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
Labour government and Europe have pursued with the rainy and regime. | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
-- Iranian regime. Many of us will look back, there is no point in | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
saying so, how different life could have been had we taken a different | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
action on that punitive strike. How things would have changed. The | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
reason Bashar al-Assad is back in play now is because Russia has | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
backed Bashar al-Assad, he was falling, he was slowly on the | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
demise. They have come back in, Russia has come back in to support | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
their person, that is why we are in the position we are in today. He | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
asks a relevant question, slightly outside of the scope of this, I hope | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
that with your permission I will simply say, we are cautiously | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
optimistic, welcoming what has happened in terrain, the early | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
results, yet, but both on the committee of experts and indeed on | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
the list itself, to see the moderates -- Tehran. . The first | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
indication, the first opportunity for the people of Iran to have a say | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
in the future of their country. They will be judged by their actions, | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
because their proxy involvement, with Hezbollah, in Lebanon, in | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
Damascus, in Syria, in Baghdad, in Iraq, in Senna, in Yemen, and in | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
Bahrain as well, if we see changes there, then we know that we're | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
working with different Iran. -- Senaa. Until then we should expect | :33:08. | :33:16. | |
the same. Can I begin by paying tribute to the honourable member who | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
brought this up, following the statement by John Kerry that it may | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
be too late to keep it as a whole, then Minister update the house on | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
any conversations he has had with his American counterpart on the | :33:28. | :33:28. | |
possible partition of Syria. It is for the people of Syria to | :33:29. | :33:39. | |
determine their future, as to how the country needs to be managed, how | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
it should be governed itself. We are at very early stages. I think it | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
would be wrong, and history shows Britain has not always been best | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
placed to make its assessments, not least in this particular patch of | :33:52. | :34:00. | |
the world. Russia has absolutely no desire to bring hope or humanitarian | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
relief, I am sure, to many areas of Syria, what they want is to increase | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
fear, despair, and the collapse of the opposition. They also hope that | :34:10. | :34:17. | |
the peace period will bring a greater influx of refugees, fleeing | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
from Syria, towards the West, can I ask the Minister, are we monitoring | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
when that is happening, and are we using our intelligence and | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
surveillance capabilities as part of the monitoring of the apparent need | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
for observation of what the Russians and Bashar al-Assad are doing and | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
the violation of the peace process. The honourable lady, who I know | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
personally, the number of committee she is involved with, puts her | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
finger on an important point, it is not just Syria, it is about the | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
wider strategic implications of what is happening, not just here, but the | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
role that Russia is playing on the international stage, not least with | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
Ukraine and Crimea, and the consequences of the influx of | :35:08. | :35:16. | |
refugees, and that political impact. That is all the more reason why we | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
need to continue that pressure. Making sure that the verification | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
mechanism comes into play as soon as possible. It is a moral outrage to | :35:25. | :35:33. | |
take the life of any nonconfidence, what estimate has been made of the | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
number of noncombatants made by Russia, and can we be sure that the | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
royal air force is not responsible for any deaths of noncombatants? -- | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
it is amoral outrage to take the life of any noncombatant. I can | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
confirm that, the rules of engagement that we follow are very | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
robust, as I said in opening remarks, over 1300 civilians, we | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
have estimated, have been killed by Russia or supported Russian regime | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
air strikes, and over 5800 have been injured. | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
On the subject of air drops, can the Minister confirm first of all | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
whether the RAF have been involved, whether they are taking place with | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
the formal agreement or just the acquiescence of the Russians and | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
Bashar al-Assad, and finally, if they could be scaled up, if Bashar | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
al-Assad and Vladimir Putin continue to starve Syrian civilians. The | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
coalition does a lot of planning in order to establish what is the best | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
mechanism to provide the aid relief in any particular area, the RAF | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
itself has not been involved in air drops per se, the United States has | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
been leading on that. As I say, it has been with marginal effect, | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
subject to weather conditions, subject to who is on the ground, the | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
areas of who receives the age, and then it is luck, as to how it is | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
distributed, often it is unfairly distributed, because it is the | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
strongest that ends up grabbing the kit, and taking it away with them. | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
That is why the preferred mechanism is getting permission to go through | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
the various checkpoints, and indeed, deliver this by truck. May I also | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
paid tribute to the honourable member, who has done a lot of work | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
on this area over the past few months, and indeed, in her previous | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
incarnation, over many years. Cannot also paid tribute to the minister | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
who has done a lot of work the region, we have spoken a lot about | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
the pressure the Russians have brought to bear on the opposition to | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
the regime, could you also tell us about the pressure that the Russians | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
have brought to bear on allies in the region, and what he's doing, | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
working with the Lebanese, the Iraqis, the Jordanians, and the tax, | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
to ensure that we deliver a peaceful solution to Syria, and not a | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
wasteland made by Russian bombs. Firstly, I am grateful for his | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
comments, and his right to outline or remark upon the impact, firstly, | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
that Syria's situation is having an its neighbours, and we should all | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
pay tribute to the generosity of countries such as Jordan and Lebanon | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
that have taken in so many refugees. The whole house can appreciate and | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
support that much of the funds we provide our going to other countries | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
as well. One of the great changes that took place was to change the | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
employment opportunities for those Syrian refugees, so that they are | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
not a burden on the domestic employment situations. That is | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
partly because of the funding coming through, the opportunities being | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
made, other countries. We are doing our best to make sure that Turkey | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
plays its role, a very complicated role that it has, with its racing | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
chip with the Kurds as well, to moderate its actions, and make sure | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
that cessation of hostilities is able to last. Russianaggression has | :39:05. | :39:15. | |
made bilateral relations rightly strained and limited over recent | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
years. -- Russia's aggression. The government says that it is urging | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
Russia to play a more constructive role in the Syria conflict. Can he | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
outline for the house in what ways the government has contact with the | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
Russian Federation at present? Firstly he is very aware of these | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
matters, travelled to Kiev with him on a visit, a couple of years ago, | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
and so I am very familiar with his knowledge, his understanding in | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
these matters, and again, I think that is very important to recognise. | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
There are a series of opportunities where the international community | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
comes together, Foreign Minister said Guy love wrath, along with John | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
Kerry and our Foreign Secretary, unable to meet with a regular | :40:07. | :40:08. | |
drumbeat. -- sur bilateral. There was the Munich Security | :40:09. | :40:20. | |
conference, not only was the public statement, made, but also private | :40:21. | :40:28. | |
bilateral that has taken place. This year was different, it was important | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
to recognise the involvement of president Makro Barack Obama -- the | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
involvement of president Barack Obama and president Vladimir Putin. | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
I would like to pay tribute to my near neighbour, for continuing to | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
bring the plight of the Syrian people to this chamber, all sides | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
must respect this ceasefire. What discussions has the Minister had | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
with the Turkish government, about reports that Turkish forces have | :40:57. | :41:07. | |
been shelling Syrian Kurds. I'm aware of those reports, and we have | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
encouraged Turkey to recognise the importance of the cessation of | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
hostilities, the opportunity it brings to further political | :41:18. | :41:19. | |
engagement which will be an opportunity to solve some of the | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
problems that it is enduring. What we do not want to see is people | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
being advantageous in this manner, and actually compounding the | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
problem, by taking advantage of the cessation of hostilities to gain | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
ground. We have been working with Turkey to encourage them to | :41:42. | :41:43. | |
recognise this cessation of facilities as well. | :41:44. | :41:51. | |
There have been serious offences to human dignity and the people of | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
Syria must know that we see what is happening to them. The Minister, on | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
previous occasions, indicated a timescale that the international | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
community was working too. Could he update us on that timetable? | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
This is not for me to bring the parties together, they will | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
recommence discussions on the 7th of March, so this was not my timetable. | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
It was first agreed at the Vienna talks as a tentative idea that an 18 | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
month transition programme would come through, but this was prior to | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
the bombings that had taken place by Russia which unfortunately led to | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
the January talks falling apart. So I hope we will still be on a | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
programme of transition in 18 months but it is for the UN merger talks to | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
confirm if that is still on track or not. | :42:47. | :42:54. | |
Consistently effective ground forces against Daesh and -- in Syria and | :42:55. | :43:03. | |
Iraq are the Kurds but Turkey uses any excuse including the present | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
ceasefire to attack them and the greater them. When is her Majesty's | :43:08. | :43:13. | |
government going to take this issue seriously -- degrade. He needs to | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
call in the Turkish Ambassador said this behaviour is not acceptable on | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
any level and will not defeat Daesh in Syria and Iraq without the Kurds | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
and Turkey needs to seriously think again. | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
My honourable friend articulates the complexity of the challenge we face | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
in Syria, with so many moving parts and organisations and entities | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
pursuing quite separate agendas which makes it very difficult | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
indeed. The situation between Turkey and the PKK, which is a listed | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
terrorist group from a British perspective as well, is well | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
recognised I've is House and we do encourage Turkey to recognise the | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
cessation of hostilities -- recognised by this House. But I | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
recognise the incredible work the Kurds in Iraq have done to liberate, | :44:07. | :44:14. | |
to hold back Daesh and liberate territory, and they will play a | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
pivotal role in the eventual operation of Mosul -- liberation. | :44:19. | :44:28. | |
Which is significant. Last week, the defence let the committee went to | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
the Middle East and the discussions were focused on Syria and a peace | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
process and agreement and we welcome the peace agreement as it is. But | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
the one thing that came up was the position of Turkey. And very | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
clearly, their position to destabilise the cessation in the | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
Middle East. They have a truly head a mystic attitude embedded | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
politically and military with some very strange bedfellows. What | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
discussions have taken place with Turkey so they stop buying oil from | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
Daesh controlled territories and selling it for them, and to stop | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
Turkey attacking coalition forces? If they want to be part of the | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
coalition, we need the help. Turkey does not purchase oil from Daesh. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
There is a movement of black-market oil, no doubt. And what is it porous | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
market. Every effort is made by Turkey to make sure that is cut | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
down. Not so long ago, there was a terrible attack in Istanbul which | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
was committed by Daesh so Turkey is as committed as everybody else to | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
make sure they participate in the coalition's efforts to defeat the | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
Daesh. After five years of death and | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
destruction, it is welcome there is a ceasefire and hope for the future, | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
but can he reassure me that given the levels of war crime and | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
brutality, anybody involved in the transitional process, that will not | :46:01. | :46:07. | |
mean they do not face justice at a later stage? That is an important | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
point and efforts have been made to make sure all war crimes will be | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
collated and this will not be forgotten and we will return to the | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
subject in a very serious way once cessation of hostilities takes place | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
and we are able to move forward. The Minister is right to say the | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
statement by the international Syrian support group was very | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
welcome, but it flies in the face of the actions of the Russians that | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
they are signing up to the transition plan when at the same | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
time they bolstering the Assad regime. What is the extent to which | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
he believes the Russians understand the level of transition that is | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
required and that there is a recognition amongst them the Assad | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
regime needs to come to an end for peace in Syria? He makes a very | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
important point as to making sure there is a verification process in | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
place and we are doing our part to make sure we pass information to the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
United Nations. There will be a report going to the Secretary | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
general of the UN in 15 days and day intervals after that, confirming the | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
situation of the cessation and any breaches that take place. This is | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
very important for the United Kingdom, America and other countries | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
to keep the pressure on Russia, to make sure they recognise their | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
unique decision in making sure we do on this so that we can expedite the | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
political process and alleviate the humanitarian situation in this | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
country. If cessation holds and continues to hold, could he explain | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
what impact he thinks cessation will have on the flow of displaced people | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
within Syria and Syrian refugees, and maybe he could collaborate maybe | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
a bit premature on what role Britain could play in making sure those | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
Syrian refugees can return home? Emigrate for for the question | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
because it allows me to express, I think, the success of the Syrian | :48:14. | :48:15. | |
conference that took place in Kabul of weeks ago -- am grateful for. The | :48:16. | :48:23. | |
London conference. In a day, we gained a record amount of pledges | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
from across the world, over $11 billion. That is important to the | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
Syrian people recognise the international community is ready to | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
support them. Once they see a cessation is likely to pass and a | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
transition is likely to take place, that is when they do make the | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
decision not to turn their back on their country and not want to find a | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
better life in Europe. The right to unimpeded humanitarian | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
aid is set in international law but as the Minister has pointed out, it | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
depends on the assessment of the situation on the ground. And in a | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
number of cases, the Minister has said the assessment of the Assad | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
regime itself as to whether convoys even leave. Can he assure me he will | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
express to the Assad regime and the Russians the high importance the | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
wider international community places on dealing with this humanitarian | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
crisis, which is urgent, in the next couple of weeks? Happy to do that | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
and that will be articulated through the UN special envoy at the talks | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
that recommence on the 7th of March. Can I draw his attention to the | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
reports from the very few international journalists on the | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
ground in Aleppo and Syria saying that many people, especially rebels | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
fighting against the regime, they are not in favour of a ceasefire, | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
precisely because they believe it will just be used by the regime and | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
Russia to take ground by stealth, which emphasises the importance of | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
getting aid into those communities and holding the regime to account. | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
Can I ask, take this opportunity to make a request to the government | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
that as we move into territory, territory previously held by Daesh, | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
but are at least 35 mass graves we are already discovering in those | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
communities. The UK is a world leader in forensics technology and | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
many groups would like to see the Foreign Office funding and | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
encouraging those frantic experts to get on the ground where it is safe | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
to do so and uncover and record the terrible crimes of Daesh and the | :50:37. | :50:43. | |
Syrian regime. -- forensic experts. He is absolutely right and we pay | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
tribute to the British capability, I have seen it in shrubbery meats and | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
other places and it is very important to gain the intelligence | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
to hold these people to account, that the verification process takes | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
place. We saw it in Ramada, that can take place once the area is made | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
safe, which is commencing as we speak -- Ramada E. He has commended | :51:09. | :51:17. | |
himself. If there is not a cessation of violence, is there a Plan B? It | :51:18. | :51:25. | |
is best to avoid discussions of that, we need to make this work. It | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
has gone on too long. This is our sixth year. There is a recognition | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
that international community is coming together for the first time | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
round the table. We have not had a situation where Iran and Saudi | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
Arabia have been at the table before, and United States and Russia | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
as well. We no doubt will face a number of difficulties and | :51:50. | :51:51. | |
complexities but that should not mean we do not try to find the | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
solutions to the stability of Syria in the longer term. | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
Happy St David's Day. Yesterday, Reuters reported two weeks ago in | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
Brussels, defence ministers in the US-led coalition met to discuss | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
ground operations against Daesh, update the House on those | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
coalitions? Huge success has been made, it has been progressive in | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
Iraq. We can create an indigenous capability and support and build an | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
Iraqi force able to liberate Ramada E, the next step is the liberation | :52:33. | :52:40. | |
of Mosul. Peshmerga is doing that and it is working well. Stopping the | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
movement of foreign fighters and funding getting into Daesh. It is | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
getting squeezed and the consequence we should be concerned about is as | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
we squeeze it in Iraq and Syria, it is popping up in other parts of the | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
world, no list Libya, and we need to be aware of that. | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
Order. Sir Edward Leigh. You are the for most Guardian of the convention | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
the House of Commons must come first. My honourable friend is a | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
most charming and honourable Minister but I did as quite the | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
Foreign Secretary was not here. I understand he is a busy man and | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
abroad or ill, but we must establish a convention that when there is an | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
urgent question or statements, as it deals with a small part, the | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
Secretary of State should be here and I would hope that you would make | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
it clear to your government departments. | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
The position is, I must say to the honourable gentleman, that it is for | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
the government to decide who the field. My responsibility is to | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
adjudicate upon applications for permission to put urgent questions, | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
and I do that every week, sometimes several times a week. I cannot | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
require any particular Minister to attend. And it must remain for the | :53:58. | :54:05. | |
government to make a judgment. That said, the honourable gentleman is a | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
very senior and respected figure in this House. And he has just made a | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
point which increasingly I have heard made recently by others. I | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
have not made a statistical study, but there are suggestions that the | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
frequency with which senior ministers appear in order to answer | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
Benson -- urgent questions is declining. And it is in no sense to | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
cast an aspersion upon the honourable gentleman who does know | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
his brief and has assiduously attended to the matters today, | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
simply to note that point in passing. I would hope senior | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
ministers would want and feel a duty to answer questions from Members of | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
Parliament. We do not have a separation of powers, as in the | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
United States. Ministers sit in and they are answerable to this House. | :55:05. | :55:13. | |
And not of them, frankly, should ever forget it. | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
Point of order, Mr Tom Watson. Happy St David's Day, Mr Speaker. | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
Yesterday, in a majestic performance at the dispatch box, Paymaster | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
General and Cabinet Office Minister confirms to the House the Cabinet | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
members who opposed the European referendum and will be supporting a | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
No vote will be able to get access to government documents on the Assad | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
referendum -- one referendum if they use the Freedom of information act. | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
Today we see on the front page of the Daily Mail the Paymaster General | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
will scrap the Commission looking at the Freedom of information act. Mr | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
Speaker, have you had noticed that the Paymaster general will give a | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
statement to the House to explain this very unusual behaviour of the | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
government shelving their own Commission is, I am bound to say I | :56:03. | :56:09. | |
have received most rich indication that any Minister has any such | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
intention. -- indication. The matter is of ongoing interest. He and | :56:16. | :56:24. | |
others who are notably terrierlike and tireless in their pursuit of | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
their ends will require no encouragement from me to deploy such | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
Parliamentary devices as are available to secure further | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
attention to the matter, if that is what they want. If there are no | :56:38. | :56:45. | |
further points of order, the House's palette has been satisfied at any | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
rate on that front or today. Perhaps we can move to the presentation of | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
the bill in the name of secretary Theresa May. | :56:56. | :57:08. | |
The contention is that a minister not, I note that with some ceremony, | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
we have received the Junot, from the Minister of State for security. My | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
apologies for interrupting. Investigatory Powers Bill. Second | :57:20. | :57:29. | |
Reading tomorrow, thank you. Order, ten minute rule motion, Mark | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
Williams. I beg to move that leave be given for me to bring in a build | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
to devolve to Welsh ministers responsibility for the termination | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
of specified bank holidays in Wales and for connected purposes. And I'm | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
lucky enough to be bringing this issue before the house on Saint | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
Davids Day itself, a day in which people throughout Wales and the dire | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
spread throughout the UK and indeed the world will be celebrating the | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
life of Saint David and celebrating Welsh cultural identity. -- | :58:04. | :58:11. | |
diaspora. Happy Saint Davids Day to everyone. Saint David is a renowned | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
and inspirational figure in Wales, responsible for spreading | :58:18. | :58:18. | |
Christianity throughout much of western Britain, also the Archbishop | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
of Wales, and a fundamental figure in the establishment of religion in | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
our country. He also had particular links to my constituency, being a | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
grandson of the founder of the kingdom, and his mother was born in | :58:33. | :58:39. | |
a local village. It is also said that Saint David himself was | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
educated at a local monastery, and it was in a village in 550 A.D., at | :58:47. | :58:57. | |
a raucous meeting of the sin of the Welsh Church that finding it | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
difficult to make himself heard, David placed a cloth on the ground | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
and Earth formed to raise a mound on which he could stand and preach. | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
This miracle put the village on the map, long before the contemporary | :59:12. | :59:25. | |
Dafydd of Little Britain fame(!) and should be no surprise that in my | :59:26. | :59:27. | |
constituency, the calls for Saint Davids Day becoming a national | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
holiday are strong. Many people today will be publicly celebrating | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
Saint Davids Day, with school pupils wearing traditional Welsh costumes, | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
the singing of Welsh songs, the reciting poetry, people taking part | :59:42. | :59:49. | |
in singing festivals, displaying some of the rich cultural tradition | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
of Wales, we will see celebrations of Welsh culture in London as well, | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
with countries from the London Welsh school, London Welsh centre, the | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
Wales in London group doing their bit to promote Wales and the life of | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
a saint. -- children. A few months ago, the service ended with Saint | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
Mary undercroft, and I'm glad to see that the catering department at the | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
House of Commons has risen to the occasion, providing wonderful Welsh | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
cuisine, procured from Wales, which I would encourage all members to | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
experience, it is no coincidence that I'm using this opportunity to | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
pursue devolving power to set public policies on this very important day | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
for Wales. Saint Davids Day and the ability of the assembly to designate | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
public holidays has been an issue which has been raised many times | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
over many years and by many people from across the political spectrum. | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
I raised it in a Westminster Hall debate in 2011, it followed that by | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
the Honourable member for Stratford-upon-Avon introduced a | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
bill to make St George's Day and Saint Davids Day public holidays in | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
England and Wales respectively during the same year. I want to make | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
it clear that this bill does not ask this house to authorise or to | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
designate Saint Davids Day a public holiday, however, as much as I hope | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
it to become one, but in the spirit of devolution, to ensure that Aaron | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
assembly has the power to decide on matters itself. Because despite the | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
numerous calls to devolve this power, unfortunately it is not yet | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
come to pass. This is in spite of the fact that responsibility for | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
public holidays is devolve in Scotland, and Saint Patrick's Day | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
has been a public holiday for Ireland since 1903. Saint Patrick's | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
Day has been used to build island's profile to encourage tourism, which | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
has provided a huge boost to their economy. Specifically the Irish | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
government set up the same Patrick Festival group, which has aimed to | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
make the celebration one of the finest in the world, encouraging | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
innovation, and providing opportunity for those of Irish | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
descent to become involved and project a positive, forward-looking | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
image of Ireland to the rest of the world. Should the power be devolved, | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
should the Welsh government make it should the Welsh government make it | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
a public holiday, there is every reason to believe that our national | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
festival can be very proactively marketed throughout the world, and a | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
more robust way than it has been. It would provide a fantastic | :02:19. | :02:19. | |
opportunity for a small country such as ours to make its mark, and it | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
seems the Bosporus to me that it is not able to make this decision. Like | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
knowledge there has been some concerns from parts of the business | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
committee about the possible designation of Saint Davids day as a | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
public holiday but this should not stop us from giving the | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
responsibility to Wales, the Welsh government to consult on the issue, | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
to come to a considered decision. We could follow the precedent of | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
Scotland. In Scotland, for example, Saint Andrews Day was designated a | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
public holiday in the Saint Andrew 's day bank holiday act of 2007, by | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
the Scottish Parliament, at that time, concerns were raised about the | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
possible negative impact that devolving power would have on | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
businesses, and the Scottish economy, but that seemed to have | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
been unfounded. And a strange they'd have affairs to hear for anyone to | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
call the this to be reversed. The Scottish Government shows, after | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
consultation, to allow banks to decide whether to close. There is | :03:19. | :03:30. | |
growing support for businesses to recognise the holiday fully but | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
critically, the decision was taken in Scotland. In Wales, we have | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
similar levels of support for making a new public holiday, with a poll | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
taken around the time of the Scottish decision showing that 87% | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
of people in England and Wales -- in Wales wanted to see Saint Davids Day | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
become a bank holiday, 65% of those survey stated they wanted to | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
sacrifice another bank holiday to see Saint Davids Day officially | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
designated. Indeed, my thanks should go to ITV Wales, in publicising this | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
bill today, they have undertaken an online poll. As of ten o'clock this | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
morning, over 90% of respondents agreed with Saint Davids Day being a | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
bank holiday. This support is also seen in also parts -- all part of | :04:14. | :04:21. | |
the National Assembly. They provided evidence to the silk commission, | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
asking for power to be given to the Senate. From the very beginning of | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
the life of the National Assembly, growing public opinion has been | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
reunited in its call for Saint Davids Day to become a public | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
holiday. In 2011, it looked as though the UK Government, after | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
pressure from the Liberal Democrats, might finally consider giving the | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
Welsh assembly power to move the Spring bank holiday from made the | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
first, to March the 1st, as part of the UK Government's tourism | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
strategy, nothing came of that, despite great political support. | :04:59. | :05:07. | |
There were calls for the power to be revolved, but then they were | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
rebuffed by the Secretary of State Wales. These calls are continued to | :05:11. | :05:19. | |
fall on deaf ears, with successive UK governments refusing to devolve | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
power to Wales, it seems unlikely that if this power continues to be | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
preserved by Westminster, that we would see Saint Davids Day become a | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
public holiday any time soon, despite huge support. Is it not now | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
time that the Welsh people were able to decide whether it is right that | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
Saint Davids Day came a public holiday in Wales, rather than it | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
being decided and rejected in Whitehall? In the UK, and in Wales, | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
with only eight public college days, we have among the fewest of any | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
country in the world. Wales should have the choice to decide whether it | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
creates a new public holiday, or whether it replaces another. That I | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
believe is the decision that the people of Wales should make through | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
our own Parliament. Let me finish by repeating the words of Saint David | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
when he said, do the little things you have seen me do and heard about, | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
I will walk the path that our fathers have trodden before us. Do | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
the little things. It has become daily well-known phrase in Wales. It | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
is all that many of us in Wales are asking, we are asking for Wales to | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
be given the power that others already have, for Wales to be able | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
to choose whether and how we make Saint Davids Day a public holiday, | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
to be able to celebrate his life, and celebrate his Welsh national | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
identity, how we choose. With this bill, we can do those little things | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
that would have a very big impact on Wales, I urge the house to support | :06:56. | :07:04. | |
this call. The question is that the honourable member have leave to | :07:05. | :07:13. | |
bring in the bill, I think the ayes habit. Who will prepare and bring in | :07:14. | :07:24. | |
the bill? Jonathan Edwards, Albert Owen, John Pugh, Carolyn Harris, and | :07:25. | :07:25. | |
myself, among others. Devolution bank holidays Wales Bill. | :07:26. | :08:01. | |
Seconded on what day? Friday, March 11. We come now to a motion on | :08:02. | :08:09. | |
supplementary estimate, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, the whip to | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
move formally. The question is, as on the order paper. It is a pleasure | :08:15. | :08:22. | |
to open the first debate in the new parliament, and I thank the liaison | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
committee for selecting from the Foreign Affairs Committee for debate | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
today. Let me at this point pay tribute to the work of the committee | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
and the last Parliament, and of course, to my predator said, Sir | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
Richard Ottaway. I was lucky enough to have him as a Parliamentary | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
Labour for 18 years, and with that experience, I can well understand | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
why he was so widely regarded. -- Parliamentary neighbour. Across the | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
whole of the Foreign Office establishment, and all of those | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
interested in foreign and Commonwealth affairs, or the way | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
that he led the committee, in the last Parliament. One of their last | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
reports, published in February, 2015, only weeks before parliament | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
was resolved, took a detailed look at the impact of cuts on the Foreign | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
Office budget, resulting from the 2010 spending review. It excepted | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
that the Foreign Office needed to play its part, in the general | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
retrenchment instituted by the review and it believe that Foreign | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
Office ministers and senior management had on a whole fate a | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
difficult and skilfully. It concluded, and I quote, the cuts | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
imposed on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office since 2010 have | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
been severe, and have gone beyond just trimming fat. Capacity now | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
appears to be being damaged. Next government needs to protect future | :09:44. | :09:45. | |
FCO budgets under the next spending review. The committee continued, if | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
further cuts are imposed, the UK's do dramatic in print and influence | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
will probably reduce, and the government will need to roll back | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
some of its foreign policy objectives. And I remind the house | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
that the reduction imposed on the Foreign Office in the four year | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
period ending in March, 2015, amounted to 24% of its resource | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
budget. However, the majority of the savings came from what amounted to a | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
tangerine trick, funding for the BBC World Service, transferred from the | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
Foreign Office to the licence fee payer, to the 1st of April, 2014. | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
The apparent budget was reduced by 240 million, and the cuts which they | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
had to make to its own budget savings amounted to just 10%. Even | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
though the real reduction was just 10% over the fall is, it is hard to | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
find anyone who does not believe that the FCO's capacity was damaged | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
in the process. Our predecessors described the Foreign Office as a | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
machine stretched to the limits. The posts left unfilled with the staff | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
of the necessary calibre worth needed for more immediate crisis. -- | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
FCOs. Overseas posts at junior level lost, reducing the opportunity for | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
staff to accumulate the sort of experience essential for service at | :11:04. | :11:06. | |
higher levels within the organisation. And reductions in | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
UK-based staff at many overseas posts, denied those that remain time | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
to leave the diplomatic rubble to gather a sense of real currents in | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
society around the country in which to serve. -- diplomatic bubble. | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
Overall, the headcount was reduced by 10%, between 2011 and now. That | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
seems perverse at a time when the Department was under such policy | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
pressure and suffering such overstretch. | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
This was mitigated by recruitment of locally engaged staff which brought | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
local knowledge, difficult for a London-based employee to acquire. | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
But much of the time, those people happen to be English people based | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
overseas and become a formally locally engaged member of staff. | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
While the average costs are apparently one third of somebody | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
UK-based, that is not the strait staving because it does not come at | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
zero cost. I have heard troubling reports of arming tended | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
consequences from the fact that locally engaged staff are not | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
cleared to the same security level -- alarming consequences. And in | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
advance of the visit to Cairo and juniors next week, I applaud the | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
swift response to the terrorist attack in June 2015 -- Tunis. I have | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
heard the subsequent anti-terrorism and narratives that analysis was | :12:48. | :12:55. | |
complicated either lack of staff cleared to the level necessary. It | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
would have played a role in the offices decision to advise against | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
all but essential travel, and tourism contributes directly and | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
indirectly to a large proportion of GDP and is a major source of foreign | :13:09. | :13:17. | |
currency. Tunisia is a volatile country and we all have an interest | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
in nurturing the continued stability. | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
He's making a very compelling case for investing in our diplomatic | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
services. Does he not share my concern that it is not just the lack | :13:33. | :13:39. | |
of spread across the world and the standing that the United Kingdom | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
global league has, that these cuts are impacting on, but it is about | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
the expertise and the analytical capabilities of the diplomatic | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
service to feedback information to the United Kingdom. He is absolutely | :13:54. | :14:02. | |
right. The point I have already made... I will make it further about | :14:03. | :14:11. | |
for example in the enquiries into Libya, how deep was our knowledge? | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
On the basis of which we made that intervention decision. It is that | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
depth of knowledge that has been lost. There is another price being | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
paid for having locally engaged staff, they do not understand the UK | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
context. It has been put to me by previous ministers that the quality | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
of reports coming through are not quite what we were because they are | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
not addressing the needs of the ministers to whom they are aimed. | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
And the difficulty is you have overstretched UK-based staff in that | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
post having to oversee in addition the work of those locally engaged | :14:52. | :14:59. | |
employees. But back to the issue of Tunisia. I accept that the security | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
of citizens must be a government priority and it cannot commend | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
travel unless it has confidence citizens will be reasonably safe. | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
These decisions, this decision about Tunisia was of such serious | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
consequence for its stability and the security of the region that we | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
must be completely confident we can make informed decisions and not | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
decision is to simply defensive in the absence of that capability. | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
Reports are of course the standard mechanism by which committees | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
express our views. And it is my belief committees can miss | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
opportunities by not getting inside the decision-making cycle and | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
devoting our energies to conducting retrospective analysis after policy | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
has been formed and executed. And the government should welcome input | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
at an early stage for an informed cross-party committee that could | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
make practical, forward-looking suggestions, rather than just | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
telling the government where it went wrong. And we published our report | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
on the budget in October last year, almost exactly a month before the | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
Spending Review, and we made just one recommendation. We recommend | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
that the Treasury protects the budget for the period covered by the | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
2015 Spending Review, with a view to increasing rather than cutting the | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
funds available to support the diplomatic work on which the | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
country's security and prosperity depend. I am the latest our | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
recommendations in this report were accepted and the settlement | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
reflected our Central recommendation. We spent much of our | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
first evidence sessions looking at how the Foreign Office was preparing | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
for the Spending Review and what scope there was to absorb further | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
cuts of the scale already imposed over the previous four years. | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
Foreign Secretary gave evidence twice and we tried to get a sense of | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
his priorities and what he would preserve and we took evidence from | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
some assignment McDonald, the new permanent undersecretary, and his | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
senior management team, to understand the detail of what might | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
be achieved. And how if savings of 25% or 40% were required, that | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
gloomy environment reflected perhaps our defensive recommendation which | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
was obviously designed to hold the current position, but it was | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
the belief of the committee that more Reza also is -- resources are | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
needed to support diplomacy. As a member of the previous | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
committee, can I suggest my honourable friend that trying to | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
make unnecessary savings can prove to be of false economy in the longer | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
term because we do not invest in expertise and analytical skills and | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
you can end up making errors that can cost a lot more than if you had | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
a proper view of things in the first place. The extreme example in | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
avoiding conflict, it is much cheaper than actual conflict itself. | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
My honourable friend next a valid point and he, working on the | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
committee in the last Parliament and in this, we'll know that our | :18:21. | :18:29. | |
expertise in Russia for example when he and I were soldiers in the | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
1980s... I was a wealth of expertise about the Soviet Union that simply | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
stripped away so faced with a crisis around the Crimea and the Ukraine, | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
the level and depth of knowledge was certainly a handicap. But about | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
looking forward for committee reports and how we might influence | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
forward in fence, one area where I hope we will be able to report with | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
authority and fulfil a much requested needed by the public is in | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
respect of Brexit. The committee is conducting an enquiry into the costs | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
and benefits of European Union membership for Britain's role in the | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
world, whether we stay or whether we leave. And honourable members and | :19:20. | :19:26. | |
right honourable members will have found people asking where they can | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
turn to for Independent analysis, who will give people the facts? And | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
unhappily, the government has placed itself in a position where it is not | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
able to give an Independent view as the institution is placed firmly on | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
one side of the campaign. Happily, I preside over a committee of 11 and | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
the publicly expressed view of my committee is balanced at 5-5 on | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
either side of the question. If he is seeking a cure for insomnia, may | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
I refer him to my speech on Friday on the subject? I spoke for one | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
hour. And to my honourable friend for Christchurch's bill to set up an | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
Independent audit on the pros and cons of leaving the EU. We accused | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
the Labour government of fiddling figures before the budget, why not | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
have a body give a genuine order? He will be delighted to yet this is | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
precisely what my committee is going to try to do. But given the way we | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
are exquisitely balanced, it is my aim, disc -- supported in discussion | :20:37. | :20:43. | |
with members of the committee who cannot be formally bound until the | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
committee reports, but I think we all share the objective to produce | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
is balanced a piece of work as possible, identifying factors the | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
electorate should committee on both sides of the question. Without | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
advising the electorate what weight to attack to those factors. I hope | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
to complete this work two months before the referendum and for the | :21:06. | :21:13. | |
committee to do that service to the public as well as to this House and | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
the reputation of its committees. I am happy to give way. On the | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
question of service to the public, would he agree with me that the | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
public is very keen his committee and others re-establish the | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
Committee on Arms Export Controls, could he explain why this has not | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
happened yet? It has and I have already attended the first meeting. | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
It has been well cared by the honourable member and I am now going | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
to forget his constituency! -- Chad. I have every confidence in the new | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
chairman of the committee, and when I recall his constituency, I will | :21:56. | :21:57. | |
alert the House! And will give way. I will intervene | :21:58. | :22:06. | |
in a separate way. Can I pay to be to his chairmanship of the | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
committee? In the sense that he is absolutely correct that we split | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
5-5. To whether or not we want the United Kingdom to pull out or remain | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
in the European Union. And he is absolutely right to ensure that the | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
report is balanced and that we do not come out either way. What a lot | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
of my constituents want this more information and impartial | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
information to be able to make their own critical assessment in this | :22:37. | :22:38. | |
matter. I am grateful and I recall it is my | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
honourable friend for Warwick and Leamington who served on the | :22:45. | :22:53. | |
previous arms export committee under Sir John Stanley. And he is taking | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
up that role and will do it extremely well. My honourable friend | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
is absolutely right on the substance of the point. And honourable members | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
in this House will know that if I can chair a committee which produces | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
a unanimous report with the honourable member for Ilford North | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
and Billericay agreeing a report on the factors around or European Union | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
membership, we will have done a service producing an analysis of | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
which everybody can have confidence in. I give way. | :23:32. | :23:39. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The chairman of the Foreign Affairs | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
Select Committee raises an important point and I will forward to working | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
with him to try to bring a five on either side together to produce that | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
report. Does he agree one primary goal is to ensure people in this | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
House and beyond this House will be as well informed as they possibly | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
can be about this European Union referendum ahead of the 23rd of | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
June? I absolutely agree. And the motivation of the Scottish National | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
Party as to what they will do at the ballot box, given their differing | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
attitudes to the different unions in which Scotland finds itself, that is | :24:14. | :24:20. | |
something we can look forward to with interest. Anyone attending this | :24:21. | :24:28. | |
debate might well ask that if the Foreign Office was a winner of the | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
Spending Review or at least not a loser, why did we see this debate | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
today? My reply is that nobody should underestimate the scale of | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
the challenges the United Kingdom and its allies are facing in the | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
world today. And even with a protected budget, the Foreign Office | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
is going to struggle to address those challenges. Of course we have | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
a range of capabilities to deal with direct threats to national-security, | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
Armed Forces diplomacy, economic policy, cyber operations and covert | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
means. But in terms of sheer value for money, diplomacy and the | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
capacity to bring crises to babies for resolution in partnership with | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
us must be the preferred solution -- crisis to a resolution. A diplomatic | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
solution rather than one that descends into the use of armed force | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
which saves a fortune as well as a huge humanitarian cost we can see | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
that accompanies a failure of preserving the peace. And it is my | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
view that we should be increasing the Foreign Office budget when hands | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
that capacity. And to help head off these crisis before they flare-up. | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
The threat to the United Kingdom security and its well-being are at | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
an unprecedented level and as we said in our report, we cannot recall | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
a more complex and challenging policy-making environment in recent | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
decades. An environment that includes Syria, Daesh, Libya, | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
Russia, the South China Sea, Israel, Palestine, North Korea, Israel and | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
Turkey the name if you, and that is before the requirements of the other | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
two pillars of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office agenda for | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
responsibility and consular services. In its response, the | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
office acknowledges there will be new work including increasing | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
spending on the overseas territories and hosting the presidency of the | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
European Union in 2017. That may be an interesting presidency if we are | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
on the way out after the 23rd of June. But inexplicably, and on that | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
issue, the response says nothing about potentially the greatest call | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
on our resources, a British excerpt from the European Union. In the | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
country boats out on the 23rd of June, a huge effort would mean | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
needed to disentangle the United Kingdom from its existing | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
commitments and to work on new trade arrangements. | :27:02. | :27:09. | |
A very large part of that effort will fall on the Foreign Office yet | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
the committee has found little or no evidence that the British civil | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
service is making any contingency plans in the event of a British | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
exit. We have a date for a referendum and exit is not a remote | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
possibility, it's a very real prospect in the hands of the | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
electorate and the competing campaigns and so I urge ministers | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
and officials to begin planning not just an outline for the consequence | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
of British people voting to leave. It's not a question of drafting in | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
extra people to prepare new treaties, we will need to strengthen | :27:47. | :27:52. | |
our lateral relationships, reopening subordinate posts which have been | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
closed or downgraded over the last 5 years, and open up areas around | :27:59. | :28:06. | |
trade that are now within the competence of the European Union and | :28:07. | :28:08. | |
we should understand what the bill is going to be and prepare to | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
address it if it happens. Turning to... I will give way. I thank the | :28:15. | :28:24. | |
honourable gentleman. On the point of increasing the number of | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
personnel who may be with the issue of exit, the foreign affairs select | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
committee recently said that about a quarter of staff in the Middle East | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
in Eastern Europe and Central Asia do not have the requisite language | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
skills and that the number of people who have language skills is going | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
down, that's another way that the Foreign Office strength has been | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
reduced in being able to tackle international issues. The honourable | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
lady is absolutely right and she understands these issues extremely | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
well from her work on the committee and more widely before joining the | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
committee. This loss of language skills is partly a reflection of | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
just how stretched the office is in getting people into the right place | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
to get the best people to cover the vacancies from all of these policy | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
challenges we face. An office that is not stretched so tautly has the | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
capacity to get the language skills of its staff up to the necessary | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
standard, that, until now, have been the envy of every other diplomatic | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
service in the world. And I know in the last parliament and was the | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
priority of William Hague as Foreign Secretary to address this and | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
measures were put in place, serious measures, to try and address this | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
but the evidence we are taking is that if it is getting better, it's | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
getting better in a minute way that does not reflect the actual need to | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
get real improvement in this area, that reflects just how tautly the | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
officers being managed under the current budget conditions. Turning | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
to the capital budget there will be more pressure on that than usual and | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
the government's response to a report points out that the Foreign | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
Office capital budget will remain flat. It says the FCO will need to | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
fund requirements which can be met from the capital budget I'd is | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
posing of assets and at warns it may need to call them the Treasury | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
reserve for large projects. The Foreign Office is rightly expecting | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
to achieve value for money when disposing of assets but the ability | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
to do so depends on market forces and as we know from the FCO | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
supplementary estimate, the FCO has already had to call them the | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
Treasury reserve to cover a shortfall which it says is due to | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
adverse market conditions in the Far East. The FCO IT system is failing | :30:54. | :31:01. | |
and presents a serious operational risk, major investment is needed but | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
that has been stalled during the Spending Review process and the FCO | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
will have to fund its tech overhaul programme from its existing | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
programme. Difficult choices will have to be made on procurement | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
bearing in mind the need for resilience under particular security | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
requirements of the Department. Her full project management will be | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
needed and I can only point out that the whole of the public service | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
doesn't exactly have a shining record in this field. And I hope the | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
Foreign Office can help redress that. The 2nd key point concerns ODA | :31:32. | :31:39. | |
expenditure and the need to rationalise resource allocation. We | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
highlight in the report our knees at the consequences of depending | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
evermore on expenditure which qualifies as official development | :31:52. | :31:53. | |
assistance and which therefore scores against the government | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
commitment to invest at least 0 points 7% of gross national income | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
in international development and that risks and is skewing the | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
department expenditure way from countries not eligible for ODA | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
spending regardless of where our foreign policy interests lie. For | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
instance, 97% of the funds available under the new human rights funding | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
programme, the Magna Carta fund, or for spending in ODA eligible | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
countries and can be queried this in oral evidence with the Minister and | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
officials were given the impression there was some flexibility to divert | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
funding towards non- ODA countries but I think we need some clear | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
answers. Trying to replace the significant sums the government puts | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
forward for human rights and the Magna Carta fund was very | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
constrained by lateral funds, I don't think is going to wash. It | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
would be quite unacceptable and that for programme funding around human | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
rights to be virtually denied in non- ODA eligible countries like | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
Russia, it is real, Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states and back-up | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
minister can give me some reinsurance on this point. Human | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
rights expenditure is not the only example of how ODA eligibility can | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
determine for an Foreign Office activity. The chief operating | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
officer said the non- ODA budget was under pressure and the workup acts | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
of the overseas network they would have to look 1st at cup backs | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
insubordinate posts in developed countries. -- cutbacks. But doesn't | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
play well with the prosperity agenda if that's where we need to go in | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
terms of trade and economic relations. The British Council which | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
plays a unique role in promoting an understanding by different peoples | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
and nations for the UK can offer faces the possibility of losing all | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
grant aid for working countries which are not ODA eligible. It is | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
looking to cross subsidise to some extent from other areas of its | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
operation but the net effect is a decline of our soft power and | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
influence in several growing economies and countries, not least | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
where there are political and human rights concerns. I have similar | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
concerns about the move within government to more pull funding | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
between departments, the conflict stability and security fund | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
currently worth 0 point to 3,000,000,000 a year will increase | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
to over a billion a year by 2020 and a new prosperity fund worth over a | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
billion. Substantial funds allocated following the process of negotiation | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
between departments and I absolutely welcome the concept of a more | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
holistic and integrated approach to funding for departments are working | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
in different ways towards the same ultimate aim. But the committee | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
should look carefully at how the FCO Ferris especially when sharing the | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
conflict stability fund was departments whose budgets as I'm | :34:50. | :34:58. | |
total funding are protected. Finally, the Foreign Office delayed | :34:59. | :35:00. | |
its response to our report until after it received a settlement | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
letter from the Treasury but I was disappointed the Foreign Office | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
didn't supply the settlement letter which I understand sets out in more | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
detail about the sums available to the Foreign Office from year to year | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
within the period covered by the Spending Review. In fact, none of | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
the departmental settlement letters have been published and at the | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
moment we just have rounded figures for budgets for 201516 to 201920 | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
without any lower-level detail. Could the Minister undertake to | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
supply the Foreign Office settlement letter to the committee so we may | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
publish it and place this essential information the public domain? My | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
conclusion is about the shape of the Foreign Office the years to come. | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
The Foreign Office said in the letter was bonding to the report | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
that there is more that can be done to strengthen the FCO and build its | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
world-class capabilities, to help achieve this I have commissioned an | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
internal review at the FCO exploring how we can be expert, agile and | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
focused on key priorities, the review will set out a vision of the | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
organisation the FCO should be by 2020 and I invite the Minister to | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
tell us a little more about this review, will it be a fundamental | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
review of how the officer structured, our priorities are | :36:18. | :36:19. | |
ordered and staff deployed, or will it be a motherhood and apple pie | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
statement of visions and aims which no 1 could disagree with? In | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
conclusion Madam Deputy Speaker, the office remains overstretched and | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
underfunded but the task that faces, its actual funding base is | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
dysfunctional and if it does not actually distort policy decisions, | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
it certainly means re- source allocation is no longer aligned with | :36:44. | :36:51. | |
actual British interests. Pete Wishart. Thank you. Madam Deputy | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
Speaker, I noticed something unusual, very different and possibly | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
quite subversive in the speech and in 1 of the days set aside for the | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
consideration of the estimates, I am going to actually speak about | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
estimates. Of all the things I did when I was research searching this, | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
the 1 thing I was told I must not do was to raise the issue of estimates | :37:22. | :37:29. | |
during Esther McVey debates. What other house in this world would have | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
something as absurd as that. -- estimate Dave. What other modern | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
parliament would even start to consider doing its business on the | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
basis of such an absurd and ridiculous ruling. Madam Deputy | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
Speaker, the estimates isn't about the allocation of pencils and rulers | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
to the civil service or perhaps the price of beer, the estimate process | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
is offering this House has to give itself or take to the government | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
spending plan. This is what we are doing in the 3 days according to the | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
standing order of the House, standing order 54, that we have been | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
given to debate this. And this... And this... But is the 1 thing that | :38:19. | :38:28. | |
we are not supposed to debate. It's absolutely and utterly absurd and | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
bizarre and it has to change. This cannot go on. Something as important | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
as this has to be considered and how did we get here? 2 centuries ago | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
this has debated and considered every single estimate in the House, | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
every piece of departmental spent was debated to the nth degree and | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
voted on. Now we do absolutely nothing. This House is just simply | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
abrogated its responsibility, looking at departmental spending and | :39:03. | :39:04. | |
that simply aren't utterly unsustainable. Could the honourable | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
gentleman just mention the Foreign and Commonwealth Office expenditure | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
or estimates, just before he carries on and try and fit his more general | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
point about estimates into the specific estimate we are debating at | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
the moment? Pete Wishart. Madam Deputy Speaker... I struggle to | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
think when we talk about estimates that the Foreign Office budget would | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
fit into what we are debating considering the day is set aside the | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
consideration of the estimates and we have to debate is, we are | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
abrogating our responsibility as parliamentarians if we fail to have | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
some sort of say and discussion and debate about how this has doesn't | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
business. Point of order... Edward Leigh. Point of order... I did | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
report of the Chancellor on this. It's quite true, the honourable | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
gentleman is doing a great service to the House, the fact is that we | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
spend ?600,000,000,000 of people's money every year but the 1 thing we | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
are not allowed top about an estimate stake is estimates of the | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
honourable member for Perth and North Purser makes a fundamentally | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
important point and then my honourable friend the Member for | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
Southport tried to talk about estimates an estimate stake couple | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
of years ago, unbelievably he was ruled out of order. You have the | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
power, Madam Deputy Speaker to say on estimates day we are allowed to | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
talk about estimates and you can give him authority to carry on | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
giving his speech. I thank the honourable gentleman for that wider | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
border but we are debating a specific motion on the order paper | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
which is the Foreign and Commonwealth Office estimates and | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
the honourable gentleman has been a parliamentarian for a long time and | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
understands how this works in Mayfield this is an injustice and | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
are the places this can be debated today, this is specifically about a | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
very important estimate that as the expenditure of the Foreign and | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
Commonwealth Office. What I want to say is that there are plenty of ways | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
in which the honourable gentleman can debate estimates more generally | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
within the framework of this but he must stick to what is on the order | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
paper. It is a motion and it is very specific about the FCO expenditure | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
and if you can do that he will not be ruled out of order, if he | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
doesn't, I'm afraid he will. Pete Wishart. | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
I will make the attempt to stay in order. According to a standing order | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
three days of each Parliamentary session is to be allocated for the | :41:37. | :41:44. | |
provision of estimates. I attempting to uphold that order in the House. | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
Why can I not debate the estimates on one of the days that is set aside | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
for estimates? This is not a debate generally on estimates either in | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
particular or any specific one. This is a particular estimate on the FCO | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
expenditure, therefore that is what we are debating here today. He also | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
knows the procedure committee is the place to go to to answer these more | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
specific questions. There are other ways of having debates on the | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
principle of estimates debates, but today we have got on the order paper | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
specifically the FCO estimate which is what we are here to debate today. | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
Pete Wishart. Can I ask you, if I wanted to question the government on | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
?600 billion worth of expenditure, and under the Barnett formula it | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
affects what we spent in Scotland, how can I start about giving a | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
speech on all the money we are spending? The honourable gentleman | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
has been here a long time. There are Treasury question, budget Day, | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
Parliamentary questions, letters to ministers, adjournment debates, any | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
number of avenues in which to get these things debated. Today we are | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
debating Foreign and Commonwealth Office expenditure on this | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
particular estimate day and with that, that is enough. If he wants me | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
to rule him out of order, I can do. If he can stick to the FCO | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
expenditure, he will not be out of order. I would like to make more | :43:26. | :43:32. | |
progress. The honourable gentleman for Gainsborough is utterly right. | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
This house has to be given the opportunity to debate this. It is | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
increasingly important. If we cannot do it on a day set aside for | :43:43. | :43:44. | |
estimates, we have to determine when. You can rummy out of order if | :43:45. | :43:54. | |
you want. This is important for the SNP because we have been invited by | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
the government from the Leader of the House to investigate, debate and | :43:59. | :44:05. | |
look at the estimates process to determine the issues for Barnett | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
consequential which you... Order, I think that is enough. Order. I think | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
we have had a debate now. The honourable gentleman has had a | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
debate on the floor of the House about estimates in general. But we | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
are looking at a very important particular assessment, and that is | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
on foreign and Commonwealth of expenditure. If the gentleman can | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
keep his debating points to that matter, I will allow them to | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
continue. It is a particular estimate day. It is not estimates | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
day. It is a particular date on which we are debating FCO estimates. | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
If you would like to continue, I will allow him to do so, otherwise I | :44:51. | :44:57. | |
will call the next speaker. There is an old army adage that says time is | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
spent in reconnaissance is seldom wasted. I suggest it could serve | :45:01. | :45:12. | |
this government while going forward when it comes to expenditure on the | :45:13. | :45:21. | |
FCO office. Because cuts to this office, but by previous governments | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
on both sides, and staff shortages, have led to a series of errors and | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
contributed to those errors that has cost us dear. On the one hand I very | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
much congratulate the government on actually protecting the budget in | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
real terms, that is a backstop on which we have not had hitherto, and | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
which is to be welcomed, but at the same time I would urge the | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
government, as my honourable friend has already pointed out, to look to | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
increase the actual budget in real terms. If the government seriously | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
thinks that cost savings in this area work, I would suggest that all | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
the evidence suggests this is a false economy in deed. It is a false | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
economy for a variety of reasons. First and foremost perhaps, it does | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
not reflect the importance of how we make foreign policy in this country. | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
In contrast to the US where foreign policy-making is much more of a | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
diffuse process, academics, career diplomats, think tanks and | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
politicians are all much more widely involved when it comes to the | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
formation of policy. In contrast in this country, the pyramid is much | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
narrower. Policy-making is basically structured and put into place by a | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
smaller number of people and organisations, primarily senior | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
people at the top of the FCO, senior people at Number Ten and perhaps a | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
few others. It is therefore terribly important that all those components | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
of our foreign policy-making are firing on all cylinders because if a | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
particular part is not working, given the smaller number of | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
components in the process, it can have a disproportionate effect on | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
the actual policy overall and its effects. There is no shortage of | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
examples where perhaps we have not done as well as we should have in | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
responding to international crises and other incidents which perhaps | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
have left us floundering. When it came to the Arab Spring for example | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
we had so few are experts in the FCO we had to call them out of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
retirement. When it came to Russia's annexation of the Crimea, I think I | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
am right in saying, and my right honourable friend can correct me, | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
but we did not have one expert in the FCO and that contributed to a | :48:03. | :48:09. | |
somewhat unconvincing response. I would suggest to the government that | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
our interventions over the last 12 years or so have suffered from a | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
lack of analytical skill and expertise which has been very costly | :48:21. | :48:29. | |
to this country. I will. Thank you, I know that member for Basildon and | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
Billericay has a long track history and he will probably be more gentle | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
on the government then I will, that if we look at Libya, Afghanistan, | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
Iraq amongst others, that lack of interrogation of the facts has been | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
a disaster in many cases. Next time I will finish my sentence. I was | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
about to say the examples included Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and I would | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
suggest Syria. In Iraq there can be no doubt now that we went to war on | :49:02. | :49:09. | |
a false premise. There were no WMD. We were all deceived. The job of | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
Chilcott is to determine whether Number Ten intentionally deceived | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
us. When it came to Afghanistan I supported the initial deployment in | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
2001 to rid the country of Al-Qaeda and we have strong evidence to | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
suggest we succeeded in that objective very early on. Were it | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
went disastrously wrong, and this takes us back to the fact that if we | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
did not fully understand the events on the ground, is that we allowed | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
the mission to morph into nation-building. We went into | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
Helmand not fully realising what that involved and certainly under | :49:45. | :49:51. | |
resourcing it. In Libya we knocked down the door, that was the easy | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
bit, but Libya has turned out to be a complete shambles in part because | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
we failed to understand that the opposition to Gaddafi would splinter | :50:01. | :50:10. | |
into 100 plus groups with different objectives and law and order has | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
been nonexistent in that country ever since. In a minute. This has | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
led to more bloodshed. Also a vicious civil war. I give way. I am | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
very grateful to my honourable friend and I must interject at this | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
juncture when he is referring to Libya. He was the only Conservative | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
member of Parliament at that time to speak out against British military | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
involvement in Libya and if I recall correctly from his speech at that | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
time, he was asking some of the rather important questions to the | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
government with hindsight has proved him to have been very correct | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
impressing those questions. He referred previously to the small | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
number of people who make foreign policy in this country. Would he | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
agree with me that went in advance of British military intervention | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
overseas, as was the case in Libya, there may need to be in future a | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
greater period of engagement and deliberation between those like | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
himself who do not fully support such actions so that these problems | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
can be avoided. I've had my honourable friend, a fellow | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
committee member, for his kind words. I would agree with him. There | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
needs to be more time for reflection on these things. But we need greater | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
investment in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, we need greater | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
expertise and analytical skills because we need to make sure we have | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
analysed the situation correctly. Our system of government performs | :51:47. | :51:54. | |
better when we have a well-informed executive being questioned by the | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
legislative. What we have had is a series of errors where it has become | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
increasingly evident that actually the executive does not have the | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
expertise to handle and that is one reason why the legislative has | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
raised the bar when it comes to military intervention, because it | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
has lacked the trust in the executive to make its case, to | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
analyse the situation correctly and to make sound recommendations. Once | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
you lose that trust, the legislative will raise the bar when it comes to | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
military intervention, as we have seen. If I may take us back to some | :52:28. | :52:35. | |
of the other errors we have made. I would suggest there were errors in | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
Syria. This government line that we did not intervene early enough on | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
behalf of the rebels accounts for the mess that is then now is simply | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
not correct. The government's intention was to arm the rebels in | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
the hope that they could keep the weapons confined to the good rebels | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
and not allow them to spread to the bad rebels, in other ways to track | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
and trace them. If anyone knows anything about the reason or who has | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
visited the country, you should know everything can be traded in the | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
bazaar. Plus the situation was so fast moving, that the idea that it | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
could stop this falling into the hands of Al-Qaeda or other | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
extremists was pure make-believe. Then in a couple of years having | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
stopped doing that by this house in a key vote in 2013, the government | :53:31. | :53:37. | |
proposes to intervene basically against the rebels. I will not be so | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
unkind as to suggest we swapped sides in the Civil War within two | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
years, but to the public it down what looks like that. It illustrates | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
very well just how we have failed to analyse the situation correctly. But | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
I would argue in the brief time left to me that actually in many respects | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
our interventions have been a distraction. I for one, and I know | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
there are many others in both sides of the House and some are sitting in | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
this chamber today, have long advocated the need to spend more on | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
our defence spending. Because these military intervention in Iraq, | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
Afghanistan, Libya and Syria have distracted us from the greater | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
threat and that is nation state is not necessarily friendly to the | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
West, both rearming and reasserting their power and their influence. | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
What immediately thinks of Russia, one immediately thinks of China, but | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
there are others as well. For those who suggest the states of Hormuz or | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
the South China Seas are far away and of little significance to us, I | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
would suggest being a country based to such an extent on maritime trade, | :54:56. | :55:03. | |
90% comes through by sea, if the Straits of Hormuz or the South China | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
Seas were ever to be blocked, we would know about it in this country. | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
I suggest we have been distracted and I suggest it is partly a | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
function of the fact we are not investing enough in what I call our | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
ears and eyes, our ability to understand what is happening out | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
there. I would suggest one other thing. We have got to have a margin | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
of safety, a margin of conflict with regards our capability because no | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
one, no one, can confidently predict where the next trouble spot is going | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
to be. History is littered with examples of where we were facing the | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
wrong way. I suggest without that margin of conflict, without that | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
margin of safety in our analytical capability, we could very well be | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
caught short again if we have not put in the necessary investment. So | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
I suggest that without the investment we make expensive | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
mistakes, we have made them and it is a false economy therefore to talk | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
about savings, particularly when you consider the budget is so small | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
relative to government expenditure generally. Putting the point to the | :56:18. | :56:25. | |
extreme, avoiding unnecessary conflict is vastly cheaper than | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
actually committing to conflict which is costly in lives and costly | :56:30. | :56:31. | |
in treasure. If only finish on 1 further point. | :56:32. | :56:43. | |
Perhaps we do not talk enough about soft power, it is increasingly | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
important. In this information age... Those who win the argument | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
are going to be just as important as those who win the conflict, it's | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
about the battle of ideas, the Battle of ideology, about persuading | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
others to want what you want rather than just rattling the Sabre which | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
can often be counter-productive as we have seen so many times in recent | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
history. We don't attach enough importance to soft power in this | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
country, we certainly don't attach enough importance to it when it | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
comes to foreign policy making and we have clear examples now, where we | :57:27. | :57:33. | |
are putting at risk our soft power capability. The BBC World Service, | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
cuts in the past, have hindered our ability to reach out to people, that | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
budget has been transferred out of the FCO and that, if you like, | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
scope, but that was 1 example prior to the transfer. An example but | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
currently sits in the FCO is the British Council. A venerable | :57:54. | :58:01. | |
organisation that is doing tremendous work in spreading the | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
word in encouraging people to want what we want, in providing an | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
educational service and in trying to bring peoples together to improve | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
understanding for the benefit of all concerned. And yet, what are we | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
doing? We are making cuts to the British Council and Ford is the | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
British Council having to do? It is having to become even worth | :58:26. | :58:27. | |
commercial in trying to make up for those cuts. If you think a small cut | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
of 10% is very little, when you are talking about commercial activities | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
to try to make up for those cuts, given a 10% is the profit margin | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
sometimes, you are having to make 100% increase in revenue than it | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
comes to commercial activities to make up for the cut. It is the sort | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
of short-sighted this that we must look a game at as a country because | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
it's not serving this country well and I would argue it's not serving | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
the international community well. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
think we need to ensure that our ears and eyes are working, if they | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
are not in the world then we tend to make expensive mistakes, I suggest | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
that because we haven't properly funded our analytical skills, our | :59:21. | :59:22. | |
capabilities, we haven't been as well cited as we should've been, we | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
have made and they have contributed, not the only reason but they have | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
certainly contributed to a series of errors which proved exceedingly | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
costly in lives, 1st and foremost but also exceedingly costly when it | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
comes to Treasury and we come back to the point about false economies. | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
It is a false economy to make cuts to your ears and eyes, the Foreign | :59:45. | :59:52. | |
and Commonwealth Office capability if as a result we blunder into | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
interventions that will cost us dearly in lives and treasure. I urge | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
the government in conclusion, and I am pleased to see my friend, the | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
banister, my right honourable friend, to increase in real terms | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
the expenditure on the FCO, we will be better cited for it and will make | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
less costly errors. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a pleasure to | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
follow the honourable member for Basildon and Billericay who makes a | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
perceptive speech and I'm grateful to him. Madame DDB speaker am the | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
cut in funding for the Foreign Office on top of the 10% budget | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
since 2010 is directly contrary to the UK key strategic interest and | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
may prevent it from effectively addressing serious organisational | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
issues within the Department. The threat to security from Daesh can't | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
be effectively addressed by dropping bombs on Syria, Libya or Iraq. | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Threats to the economy from events in China and the Eurozone can't be | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
washed away by the Treasury. We need to equip the FCO not only to meet | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
the challenges of today but to be able to rise to meet the unknown | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
challenges of tomorrow and there must be a renewed focus on aid and | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
diplomacy in all that the FCO doors. As a recent FCO report on the | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
Spending Review stated, in an increasingly unstable world | :01:20. | :01:20. | |
government relies on the FCO to have critical decisions sometimes do | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
Mormons notice. Over the last Parliament the country was found to | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
be lacking in expertise, and all article capability and language | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
skills to manage the fallout from the Arab Spring and Ukraine crisis. | :01:37. | :01:46. | |
In 2010, it might have been thought that the skills in Donetsk and Raqqa | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
were surplus to requirement but now it evidences the real danger to an | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
underfunded FCO. The honourable lady makes some excellent points but I | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
promise I will pursue this in Hansard afterwards, which she | :02:03. | :02:10. | |
forgive me if I left at this point? Thank you very much. On this | :02:11. | :02:17. | |
occasion, I shall forgive him! The FCO must have the capacity to be | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
able to extend further on a day-to-day basis. In a speech to the | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
Institute of government last year the outgoing permanent | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
undersecretary of state for the FCO Sir Simon Fraser supported the | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
protection of UK aid spending and 2% commission to defence spending but | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
lamented that the FCO relatively small budget was unprotected in the | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
coming Spending Review. He referred to the FCO to the glue that holds | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
everything together. He said the FCO arguably deserved similar protection | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
to larger budgets like the Ministry of Defence whose operation overseas | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
would only stand to benefit from a strong FCO. This being said, Madam | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
Deputy Speaker, the FCO clearly needs to reform its overseas network | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
and stem spiralling costs especially in the climate when cuts are being | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
felt so hard by so many. The focus must be on efficiency and efficacy. | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
Sir Simon said the FCO deserves similar protection to larger budgets | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
and on this basis, in the face of planned cuts I wonder if the | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
Minister would be so kind and his remark to address the following | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
question. What changes will be made to the implementation of government | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
Aussie outside the UK where this spans a range of departments? Who | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
decides which department is best placed to coordinate joint action | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
between the part is and how will funding to support this be secured? | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
Will this mean du munitions of the role of the FCO within government | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
and what impact will this have on the continue strategic role of the | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
department within government and finally, is it not a concern that | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
the UK international role will be stratified and then balanced as the | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
MOD which has a protected budget will have a stronger role without | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
the balancing mechanism that the FCO can bring to this work. Madam Deputy | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
Speaker, human rights need to be re-established as a top priority. | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
The permanent undersecretary knowledge to that human rights was | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
not now 1 of the top try or at ease. This must be addressed again. Moving | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
on to what the FCO looks like to the outside world. In the same speech I | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
referred to, Fraser also conceded in the past the FCO culture had been | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
too narrow, too white, and to mail. He argued this was improved on his | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
watch but acknowledged there was much more to do to achieve a greater | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
diversity in the full sense of the word. Cutbacks within the Department | :04:53. | :04:59. | |
may threaten progress in this vital area of equality and diversity. | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
There were no women on the short list to replace Fraser as permanent | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
undersecretary. He also noted the FCO have yet to appoint a woman | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
ambassador to its most prestigious post like Washington and Paris. But | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
emphasised women were no ambassadors in Beijing and Kabul. He put this | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
down to the pipeline of diversity in the organisation pointing out the | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
FCO started further behind the rest of Whitehall, having been the last | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
Department to abolish its marriage ban as late as 1973. -- marriage | :05:32. | :05:46. | |
bar, should I say. On wider diversity, although 12% of the total | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
workforce is from minority ethnic backgrounds at senior levels, FCO | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
leadership is most exclusively white. Fraser said they'd been a | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
cultural switched understanding diversity not only matters what is | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
good for the FCO, leading to better decisions and outcomes. That spreads | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
to the wider workplace whatever that might be and this very house itself. | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
So how will these proposed changes to the budget the Department impact | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
on the work of the FCO to address this very culture? What schemes | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
within the department will be funded in the next year to specifically | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
address these issues? An isolationist agenda in our | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
international relations has already damaged the UK's image, at the very | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
least let's make sure this is and reflect within this country in terms | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
of our workforce diversity. This should be and is indeed our | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
strength. Richard union. Madam Deputy Speaker. I contribute to this | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
debate by starting and congratulating my honourable friend | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee and his committee, albeit | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
in its previous form, making a recommendation which the government | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
listen to. But I entirely agree with my friend. What the Chancellor did | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
with his announcement on the Foreign and Commonwealth Office spending was | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
to draw a line of reductions over many years which I believe, like so | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
many who have spoken already, have had a damaging effect on bread and's | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
ability to project self power. I have just come from a meeting of the | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
Defence Select Committee and we heard an organisation called the | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
conflict studies research Centre which is to be based within | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
Whitehall and was a government organisation but in a similar way as | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
described by my honourable friend in terms of other aspects of our | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
ability to inform the executive of what is going on, was cut. I'm | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
delighted to say it has re-emerged in the private sector and this may | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
be clearest as to how London continues to be a major hub for | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
international organisations, think tanks and other areas of expertise | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
in foreign affairs and defence issues, we must be smarter and fleet | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
of foot in using these resources much as they do in Washington, | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
rather better than us. In my capacity as a minister and | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
subsequently in roles on select committees and through the NATO | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
Parliamentary assembly of the privileged to see posts in the | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
Foreign Office working abroad and have huge respect for those that | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
work in them. I think during the Coalition Government time, was | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
appreciated was the programme of closures of posts was reversed and | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
that was furry welcome. But I think what we have in the Foreign and | :08:52. | :08:53. | |
Commonwealth Office is something that has become broad and shallow. | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
-- very welcome. We need to concentrate on finding depth and I | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
agree with many of the sentiments of been put forward. I believe it's | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
fundamentally important that William Hague reopening of the language | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
school is part of a welcome re-engage went on these important | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
skills. -- re- engagement. Foreign Office posts abroad, the UK projects | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
soft power and I see this as a trade envoy as much as anyone. And that is | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
why cuts to the FCO or short-sighted because when we can engage with | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
countries, build relationships over a long period of time, that is | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
reflected in jobs at home, exports and helping our balance of payments. | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
I have seen our influence way exceed expenditure because of the hard work | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
put into relationships built with governments and people of influence | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
in countries and at the moment and kicking the dust off my feet from a | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
trip to Jordan and Lebanon last week with the Defence Select Committee | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
and I would like to put on record my thanks to 2 outstanding posts, the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
ambassador to the defence of Tasha, the political officers and security | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
staff operating in those countries, our stock is why as a country and we | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
then e-fit in trying to keep to country stable in the face of an | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
believable threats over the broader in Iraq and Syria. I would like to | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
look at what I honourable friend from Basildon and Billericay | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
referred to as trouble spots and he perhaps looked back with a degree of | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
Jordan Freud which I think he is justified in some cases in | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
expressing. In looking at trouble spots he said we should look forward | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
and where are the trouble spots of the future and I suggest 1 very | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
daring 1 is a resurgent Russia. And throughout the Cold War, as has been | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
said by my honourable friend, the chairman of the committee, we had | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
real experts across Whitehall on the Soviet Union. Many of them, the | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
posts were stripped out as they retired or moved... The corporate | :11:12. | :11:21. | |
knowledge fell to an alarming degree. I know I may be straining | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
slightly but the defence intelligence service, for example, | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
had no Ukraine desk officer at the time of the uprising, it had to | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
borrow 1 from the South Caucasus. And I imagine the same problem was | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
existing within the Foreign Office, suddenly, the glaring reality of a | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
major threat to Britain's interests and to NATO was emerging. | :11:44. | :11:56. | |
There is a real need to understand these threats and make resources for | :11:57. | :12:06. | |
the future. In other days there was some group accountability in the | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
Soviet Union and you did not feel it was run by one individual on their | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
women. Now in Russia it is run by one autocratic Megan Heath, a klepto | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
crap of quite staggering proportions who can annex the sovereign | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
territory of another state, have people murdered on the streets of | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
London and oversees a regime that sees lawyers murdered and in prison | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
in Russia and one wonders how many more Litvinenkos there are. He can | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
do to buyers of Syria what he did to Grozny and who can threaten states | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
who we are a treaty bound to defend under our membership of Nato. This | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
is an individual for whom rules -based governance is anathema. We | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
should govern much of our thinking and much of the way we resources our | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
foreign policy and our defence policy by one clear question. What | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
would Vladimir Putin want? Certainly. And what does the | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
honourable gentleman think that Vladimir Putin would want in | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
relation to the UK's membership of the European Union? The honourable | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
member has probably read the next page in my speech and I will come on | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
and answer precisely that because I think he and I agree. The point I | :13:37. | :13:44. | |
was about to make was that what President Putin would want would be | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
a Foreign and Commonwealth Office budget curtailed. He would want a | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
weaker Nato, and Nato that is riven by infighting and continues running | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
down its armed forces and Nato that does not respond to an escalation of | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
aggressive actions towards stays on Russia's western border. But there | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
has been a reversal in decline of defence spending, not least by | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
Britain, but also by a number of our allies. But this requires massive | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
efforts of diplomacy, to keep our alliance moving in the direction it | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
should be, showing the ability to stand up to the actions of this | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
regime. But to answer the honourable gentleman's point, what Vladimir | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
Putin wants is a West were influential countries like Britain | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
are less influential. He can see where I am going. Yes, he wants a | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
weekend European Union. It is the EU, not Nato, that can impose | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
damaging sanctions against the regime. He hates having an economic | :14:51. | :14:58. | |
rule set on his western border. As the leader of the UK delegation to | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
Nato, I recently attended a meeting at the Nato headquarters and | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
informally and formally our allies crossed the floor to say to me with | :15:11. | :15:19. | |
varying degrees of incredulity whether Britain was going to leave | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
the EU. I hope the report will not just look at the costs of a possible | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
Brexit, but look at the impact of Britain leaving would have on the | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
geopolitics of our European foreign policy. These people were coming up | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
to me and saying, even America, they were saying now? At this time with | :15:40. | :15:47. | |
all that threatens Europe economically, militarily and in | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
society? There is much our diplomatic services have to do in | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
coming years. They have to shore up our alliances in Nato and shore up | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
spending on defence amongst our allies and they have to use all | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
methods, both hard and soft power to deter Russia through our hard and | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
soft power postures. How we invest and work with our allies and how | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
would exercise as Armed Forces and show strength. When we met with Jens | :16:18. | :16:28. | |
Stoltenberg in Russia last week, he concurred with a lot of what my | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
right honourable friend is saying, but he also discussed the importance | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
of dialogue with Russia. Would he agree with me that it is important | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
despite these tensions to attempt to engage with Russia to try to defuse | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
these issues? I entirely agree with my honourable friend and I am not | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
somebody who believes in confrontation. I think he probably | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
knows me well enough in how I operate in this house and exactly | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
the same applies in how we deal with a potential aggressor. Yes, that is | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
the purpose of what I am saying today. Not only should we be strong | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
and show that our alliance is strong and we are not going to see Article | :17:16. | :17:23. | |
five boost by people like resident Putin, but we will be engaged | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
diplomatically with him and his regime and try and get common sense. | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
Also to use resources like the World Service and the British Council as | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
my honourable friend talked about earlier. At Nato last week a | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
Romanian who works in Nato said it was for her the greatest treat of | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
her day, to sit under her bed clothes listening to the British | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
World Service. It kept her in touch with what was going on in the West | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
and the freedoms that we enjoy and she wanted some of that. She has now | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
got it and through such means we can also influence people in Russia. I | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
am very grateful to him for giving way again. When I used to go back to | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
Warsaw to see my grandfather in communist times we always listened | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
to the BBC World Service very quietly with the curtains drawn | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
because it was illegal to do so. But can I say the comfort that that gave | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
to my grandfather and his generation, knowing that there were | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
those outside beyond the Iron Curtain who were struggling and | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
trying to keep them informed was a great comfort to him. My honourable | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
friend makes a powerful point and he and his family understand this more | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
than anyone else in this house. I conclude by talking about one | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
concept in terms of foreign policy and that is our will. Our will to | :18:54. | :19:02. | |
make a better world, to extol the virtues of the kind of society we | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
enjoy in this country and that most of our European colleagues also | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
enjoy and in the West. Of course we face difficulties. We get on with | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
our lives as independent members of different alliances, with Nato or | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
the EU, or with other arrangements we have. And aggressor like Russia | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
is one country run pretty much by one individual and so our world is | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
tested. On the face of it we should not be alarmed because we have | :19:36. | :19:44. | |
across Nato 3.2 million troops under arms, the four largest members of | :19:45. | :19:52. | |
Nato who spends $740 billion a year on defence as against Russia's 65.6 | :19:53. | :20:00. | |
billion. But that statistic, start as it is, does not describe the | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
depth of the problem. The depth of the problem we are seen in places | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
such as Ukraine, Georgia, and now in Syria, threats whether they are | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
actual or subversive threat to Nato countries such as the Baltic states. | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
We have to have a strong will and to prove that we have that will | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
requires resources, commitment, the hard slog of soft power and | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
diplomatic efforts. It requires language skills and the real depth | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
understanding and of course there are other problems in the world in | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
the South China Sea and Africa and elsewhere, which draw many of those | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
resources away from a particular problem. As so many people have | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
said, we do not know what is coming around the corner next. But I am | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
certain about one thing. Russia will tweak Nato's nose and it will push | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
the envelope of article five, whether it is playing on Russian | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
speaking nationals in certain countries, or whether it is | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
threatening countries who are friendly to us, but not members of | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
Nato like Sweden, through incursions into their waters of airspace. Today | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
we had, I quote, any weakness on our part Russia exploits. Making sure | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
Russia understands that the West will respond, will punish them if | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
they attack a Nato state, must remain a key foreign policy | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
objective, but it is an objective that needs proper resourcing. I | :21:34. | :21:42. | |
welcome the opportunity for this debate and it is a pleasure to | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
follow the member for Newbury. I agree entirely with what he set | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
about President Putin. As others have said today, perhaps I would | :21:52. | :22:02. | |
address President Putin directly and say in Russian this. I hope he will | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
have heard that message. I really hope that was in order because I | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
have no idea what the honourable gentleman said. If he could | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
translate for the benefit of those who do not speak Russian I would be | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
very grateful. If he wants to talk to us, we will be very happy to talk | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
to him. The member for Newbury talked about language skills and | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
that is an important matter. Without those language skills it is very | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
difficult to engage effectively with others. It is a pity that the member | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
for Basildon and Billericay is no longer in this place because had he | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
been, I would have disagreed with him on the subject of Syria. What we | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
do know about Syria is since the UK Parliament decided not to take | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
action some years ago, a quarter of a million people have died and over | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
4 million people have become refugees and several million more | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
have become refugees within Syria. Whilst we cannot know for certain | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
what the impact of limited UK military involvement might have | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
been, what we do know and what we can see is the consequences of the | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
failure to take any action. Could you remind the House what we are | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
being asked to take action for? Indeed, I welcome back to that. I | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
will take another intervention. I was going to raise a similar point | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
to the one raised by the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee, which | :23:39. | :23:47. | |
is what with the consequences of Russian action be? Does this not go | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
to the heart of the debate about the need to fund the FCO properly? | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
Indeed and to respond to the earlier point, what we were being asked to | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
do was to leave open the opportunity of there being military action taken | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
in the future. That is what the vote was about. It was not about whether | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
we should take military action at that point, but it would have left | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
open that opportunity and because they voted leaving against, taking | :24:16. | :24:27. | |
action was closed down at that point. The whole purpose of this | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
debate is to highlight the importance of funding the FCO | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
adequately. We were being invited to take military action in order to | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
deprive President Assad's regime of its chemical weapons. That is what | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
we were being asked to do. If there was a proposition to do something | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
much wider than that, that is the proposition that should have been | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
put to the House. My recollection may be slightly different to his, | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
but if I recall correctly, what the vote was about was about leaving | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
open the option of the UK Parliament taking military action at a point in | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
the future which would have required another vote. The UK Parliament | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
decided to say we do not want to leave open the option of that future | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
vote and I regret that decision was taken. In relation to the European | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
Union, I do hope we will be able to engage in a positive campaign on | :25:27. | :25:34. | |
this matter and I wonder whether, not that this is entirely related to | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
the estimates, whether the Minister for Europe has a view about whether | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
to go campaign is the campaign that we should be pushing forward as the | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
campaign for Brexit on the basis that it is a good cross-party | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
campaign. Perhaps they are best placed to represent the Brexit | :25:53. | :25:53. | |
campaign. benefits of being in the EU because | :25:54. | :26:33. | |
I think the difficulty that we have got in the next four months, many of | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
those ministers who rightly stated on balance we are better off in the | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
EU, have previously perhaps not highlighted some of the positives | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
involved. That, I can give to the Minister, is a no cost to the FCO | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
ministers speaking positively about the European Union. On the subject | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
of Syria... It would be helpful to know from the Minister exactly what | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
is being billed in in budgetary terms for what we hope will be | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
happening post- cease-fire, if the cease-fire holds and we get to a | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
position for there is a degree of stabilisation in Syria, there will | :27:19. | :27:25. | |
clearly need to be from the FCO, I suspect, quite a substantial | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
financial commitment to greater involvement in the stabilisation | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
process that should then follow. I hope that is something that is being | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
budgeted for. What I want to focus on perhaps in the next 3 or four | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
minutes is more the issue of human rights and the importance of having | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
an FCO policy that promotes human rights. The honourable lady who | :27:50. | :27:58. | |
represent South Kircher rightly referred to what the permanent | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
undersecretary had to say and I quote... Human rights is 1 of the | :28:02. | :28:10. | |
things we follow but it is not 1 of our top priorities. And he then and | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
on to say in response to subsequent question that right now the | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
prosperity agenda is further up the list. -- South Perthshire. I wrote | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
to the permanent undersecretary after he was quoted to get clarity | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
from him as to exactly what he said in relation to human rights and the | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
prosperity agenda and how those 2 things work together and 1 was a | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
greater priority than the other. He replied and I am very grateful for | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
that, he didn't actually comment on the court about whether human rights | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
was 1 of our top priorities but what he provided was a useful breakdown | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
about how many people within the FCO in full-time equivalent terms work | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
on human rights versus the number of people working principally on | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
prosperity and within the FCO, it is 240 people working on human rights | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
and 2900 people approximately working on prosperity. I don't know | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
precisely what, from a budgetary point of view, there is in the | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
estimates looking forward but as the Minister can say anything about how | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
he thinks that balance might change in terms of the number of people | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
within the FCO working on human rights issues as opposed to working | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
on the prosperity agenda, if there is already some sort of forward | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
vision about how that will change because clearly, there is a great | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
sheath of things here, the Minister will be pleased to know I won't | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
refer to all of them but there are many issues, human rights issues | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
around the world, that I want to know the FCO will be fully engaged | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
in. And just to run through very quickly, for instance, the issue of | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
Burma, clearly very pleasing that there are developments they are but | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
certainly I know that some of the Burma campaign groups are very | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
worried that even with Aung San Suu Kyi, the important role she plays, | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
there are minority groups who are perhaps at greater risk now than | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
they were before so that requires FCO attention. On the question of | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
Bahrain, we know the UK Government is working with the prison | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
authorities and the police, again, there are concerns that the impact | :30:37. | :30:44. | |
of that which was supposed to improve... Perhaps the human rights | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
regard played by prisoner 30s and the police in Bahrain, that is not | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
yet delivering the goods so I would want to be certain that the FCO is | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
sufficiently resourced to ensure that the case and I could say the | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
same about China, for instance. Perhaps the most worrying | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
development and 4 I think the FCO really needs to inventory heavily | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
and make sure they have got the right number of people in place, | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
that is the question of Saudi Arabia and Yemen. I am really concerned | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
that at some point in your future, it will be confirmed that there have | :31:22. | :31:29. | |
been breaches of international humanitarian law, there are enough | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
organisations that I think produced evidence to suggest that is likely | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
to be the case and therefore the FCO, I think they will be in a very | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
difficult position for the Parliamentary Secretary as I think | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
repeatedly said that there have been discussions with the Saudis and | :31:48. | :31:49. | |
there have been assurances given but it seems to me as though the | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
evidence points in the other direction and the FCO does need to | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
monitor very carefully perhaps the activities of the MoD who are | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
responsible for assessing whether IHL has or has not been broken. | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
Because I don't think it would be to know 1's interest to find out | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
subsequently that infect ie Chel had been broken in relation to the | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
activities of the Saudis in Yemen. -- that in fact ie Chel. I hope | :32:24. | :32:34. | |
perhaps as its 1st inquiry it will look at the question of UK arms | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
sales to Saudi Arabia because I think that is, for them, I would | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
think, the most pressing problem. I could also mention human rights | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
issues in Sri Lanka which remain a priority for the Tamil community or | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
indeed, the human rights of the anti Moslem community in various | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
countries around the world 3rd they are often put under pressure so | :32:59. | :33:00. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to speak by saying the investment we | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
make in the FCO, whether it's hard investment in terms of presence | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
around the world or indeed, the soft power, the number of members that | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
have referred to this, must be a priority for us. It helps a sponge | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
above our weight and I think it helps ensure that the UK, whether | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
it's through things like the British Council or our embassy presence | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
around the world, is a major player on the world stage and that is | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
something that certainly I would like to insure continues. Patrick | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
Grady. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker and I congratulate 1st of | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
all, a cherub of foreign affairs select committee and his colleagues | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
including my honourable friend for north-east Fife on the important job | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
they've done in producing the report and are quite considerable success | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
they have achieved in persuading the Chancellor to at least maintain the | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
Foreign Office budget more or less at what was in the face of very | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
great treasure and I will come back to some of those points as we go on. | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
As my honourable friend for Perth and North Perthshire quite rightly | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
pointed out this is a debate on the estimates and of course, Madam | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
Deputy Speaker, you were only doing your job to call him to order | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
because of the rules and conventions of this House by which you as the | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
chair are bound but it serves to demonstrate a complete inadequacy of | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
the estimates process that we have. The motion in front of us today | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
authorises in clauses 2 and 3 D expenditure of more than ?50,000,000 | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
of public money and yet, look how empty the chamber is, not even a | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
contribution from the backbenches of the official opposition party on | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
this matter and it speaks to the broader estimates contained in the | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
mighty House of Commons paper 747 named after a jumbo jet no doubt due | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
to it's not inconsiderable size and yet... Here we are, barely an hour | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
and 20 minutes after starting, moving to the wind-up speeches. All | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
kinds of important government expenditure having no kind of real | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
in-depth scrutiny. Page 407 includes a payment from the resources | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
reserves programme budget in respect of the Battle of New Orleans | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
commemoration, an increase of ?142,000, page 410, are transferred | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
to the Cabinet office capital budget in respect of the foxhound project, | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
whatever that is. The chamber may never know, perhaps the Minister can | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
tell us. A decrease of ?3,000,000 to the government budget and on page | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
410, cost neutral transfer of the older plurality building, much, I'm | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
sure, appreciated by FCO officials to be transferred to the Department | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
of Education and of course I will give way. I have some sympathy for | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
the honourable gentleman and the arguments made over estimates and | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
since he raised it, I wonder if I could give notice to the Minister | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
and his officials, perhaps they could give an explanation as to why | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
we have given that money to celebrate a British defeat which | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
happened after the peace treaty had actually been concluded around the | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
war in which to place. Perhaps we can also have an explanation of the | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
biggest number of all in the Foreign Office estimates which is the budget | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
neutral increase in programme expenditure fully offset by an | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
increase in receipts in respect and advised government charging, a sum | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
of ?220,000,000, either way, if the Minister could explain that to us, | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
then we might at least have had some focus on the actual estimates | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
themselves. I thank the honourable member for his point and I think he | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
makes my point for me. It goes to demonstrate the complete lack of | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
scrutiny and of course, Madam Deputy Speaker, you said earlier on there | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
are other mechanisms through Select Committee and Question Time | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
statements and we can discuss different aspects of expenditure but | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
the estimate process itself is clearly inadequate and it's | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
particularly inadequate for those members from Scotland who were told | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
during the debate that this was the way you which we could discuss | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
Barnett consequentials on the impact of legislation for which we cannot | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
afford participate due to the evil procedures, this would be our | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
opportunity and it seems as if that opportunity is being denied to us. | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
As a member of the procedure committee I look forward to our | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
inquiry into the estimates procedure and look forward to questioning | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
government and the stress, Treasury ministers in particular and members | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
from across the House on how we can make this procedure fairer but at | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
the risk of deviating too far from the motion in front of us on being | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
called out of order myself, I'll turn to the more general themes of | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
the debate contained in the committee report and the broader | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
issue of the FCO role and function. From the tone of the debate, it | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
seems that the FCO is in something of a precarious situation. It is a | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
thick like so many other departments, people, communities, | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
across this country, of the government's ideological commitment | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
to swingeing public service cuts no matter what the cost. In the SNP | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
manifesto we shall did was possible to modestly increased public | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
services and over the long term, still balance the books, pay down | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
the public debt. This is 1 of the more on proceding and probably | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
slightly less concerning aspects cos it's not impinging on people's | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
day-to-day lives in the way so many other cups or nevertheless, it's an | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
impact of an ideological drive from the government and at the same time, | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
it's leading to an increasingly ideological and almost isolationist | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
narrowing of focus and interest and diverging so away from what should | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
be priority areas, the protection of human rights and the promotion of | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
peaceful and sustainable development. Some of that has been | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
alluded to in the discussion about the role of the FCO and its | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
expenditure on overseas and official development assistance, we in the | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
SNP have long welcomed the commitment to 0 points 7% of GNI to | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
be spent on ODA and the government commitment to this, meeting the | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
target isn't a blank cheque to spend it on whatever it can cram into the | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
definition, I raised several times on the floor of has seen increasing | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
overlap between expenditure of the target and the 2% NATO target which | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
might be allowed in principle but I don't that what people expect in | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
practice and the government committed to those. The honourable | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
member for Barbara Keeley touched on the use of ODA and the World Service | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
and the number of concerns that he raised on my honourable friend from | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
South Perthshire talked about the importance of effective Corporation | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
across government so it'll be interesting to hear the ministerial | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
response to your points. The budget is 1 of the smallest in government | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
but it doesn't mean it's necessarily the most effective or efficient, the | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
discussion as I said is in the context of the pressure felt across | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
public spending, so if the FCO budget is to be protected and it | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
must be used efficiently and we heard from the Liberal Democrat | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
member some statistics about the number of people employed. I've had | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
over my lifetime, the opportunity for various reasons to visit 3 of | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
her Majesty's embassies and high commissions around the world. In | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
Malawi, despite 2,000,000 people in the country not having access to | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
clean water, the High Commissioner has at his disposal a swimming pool | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
in his residence in Zambia and a tennis court provided in the country | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
for most children probably play football without shoes and read | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
before I was in Berlin to find the embassy takes up an entire street | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
blocked and practically stopped the traffic through 1 of the main | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
thoroughfares right next to it so undoubtedly, there are efficiencies | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
to be found. We were told during the independence referendum Scotland | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
could never afford a network of global embassies and outposts and it | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
would be 1 of the crippling costs of independence and to be fair if we | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
tried to replicate what the FCO has, it might well be true but I think a | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
country like Scotland could probably manage more modestly in considering | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
the role we play in the world today, so could the United United Kingdom | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
and for that matter, the United States. There are other issues | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
touched on another debates and I think the FCO needs to consider | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
those, I debate in Westminster Hall while ago about consular assistance | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
for families but people who are briefed by loved ones overseas. And | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
I wrote to the Minister's collie, the Parliamentary and circuitry | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
provides support for people who are victims of terrorist attacks, or in | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
her case he witnessed the Tunisia tax and she feels furry concerned | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
about the lack of information and communication. I touched on that in | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
a letter and Parliamentary questions. We have also heard about | :41:57. | :42:04. | |
the downgrading of human rights in the FCO. And the director of Amnesty | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
International says the UK is setting a dangerous precedent to the world | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
and human rights, the downgrading of human rights by this government as a | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
gift to dictators the world over and undermines our ability to collar the | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
country is too appalled rights and laws, a serious concern I've heard | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
from a number of civil society organisations and I think it's | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
important it is addressed. No-frills is that more true than in Yemen and | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
Saudi Arabia. UK planes with pilots trained in the UK, bombs made in the | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
UK, Courtney did in the presence of UK military advisers are being used | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
in the war in Yemen and at some point the governorate has to tell us | :42:45. | :42:45. | |
when that adds up to complicity. In conclusion, this ought to be a | :42:46. | :42:57. | |
debate on the estimates process, but we have shown the inadequacy in this | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
house for dealing with this. But we have touched on the very important | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
role of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office because of the ideological | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
budget cuts and the challenges that prevent a more effective use of | :43:15. | :43:24. | |
taxpayers' money. It is a privilege to have the opportunity to speak in | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
this important debate and with an international network of 268 posts | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
across 168 states, the FCO has a long history in being a world | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
leader, securing these, protecting citizens abroad. Last year the UK | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
was ranked number one in the world in the league table of soft power. | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
As the honourable member for Basildon and Billericay mentioned, | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
the concept of the Battle of ideas is incredibly important as we | :43:59. | :44:00. | |
approach the concept of our work abroad. The question is whether this | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
year's spending review undermines the important work of the FCO and | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
undermines our standing in the world of diplomacy. We know since 2010, | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
the government has repeatedly cut the budget of the FCO and now we | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
have a Foreign Office that is not only the smallest budget of any | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
Whitehall department, but one that has had its budget slashed by 16% in | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
real terms. According to the report mentioned several times today by the | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, we spend less on | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
diplomacy and Canada, France, the United States and New Zealand. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
Germany spends almost 50% more than this government does. Some key | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
states such as China, Brazil, Indonesia and Russia are increasing | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
their diplomatic budgets. Whilst I welcome the support and support the | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
announcement the SCO's budget will be protected in real terms, this | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
comes after five years of cuts that have reduced the workforce to an | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
all-time low and risked undermining its ability to have influence in the | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
world. The committee's report shows that over the last parliament the | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
country was found to be lacking in expertise, analytic capability and | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
language skills to manage the fallout from the Arab Spring and the | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
crisis in Ukraine. We had some very interesting Russian from the | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
honourable member for Carshalton and indeed the member for Bolton and | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
south-east emphasised just how important acquiring language skills | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
are. You never know when you might need a language. I hope today the | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
House will receive a clear outline of spending estimates from the | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
honourable gentleman which will demonstrate how he intends to repair | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
the damage to allow the UK to pursue its political and diplomatic | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
objectives and maintained a global leader in soft power resources. Last | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
summer the world observed the largest refugee crisis since the | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
Second World War. According to figures released by the United | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
Nations High Commissioner for refugees, there are an estimated | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
59.9 million forcibly displaced people worldwide. Over 20 million | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
are externally displaced refugees. As has been debated in the House | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
frequently, millions of these refugees are fleeing the | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
destabilising civil war in Syria. Indeed earlier today following the | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
urgent question by my honourable friend, the House was fully engaged | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
in a debate about how the situation could possibly improve in Syria. We | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
simply must have the resources to match the energy and the desire in | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
this house to see peace in the Middle East. Given the media | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
coverage, it would be easy to think this was where the problem ended, | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
but we know millions of people have fled Sudan, Somalia, Pakistan, | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
Burma, Iraq, Eritrea, the DRC, Ethiopia, Sri Lanka, the Gaza, the | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
West Bank, the crisis is global. This is a clear example of why we | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
need a Foreign and Commonwealth Office that is properly funded and | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
capable of engaging with these issues. | :47:26. | :47:37. | |
It has become clear that as a result of five years of cuts there has been | :47:38. | :47:46. | |
a change in the FCO's focus on human rights. As the committee report | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
noted the permanent undersecretary at knowledge human rights was not | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
now one of the top priorities and in a constrained environment other | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
elements of the FCO's work had supplanted it to an extent. We | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
believe this to be a consequence of the savings imposed on this | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
department. To give one banning sample were there has been a lot of | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
correspondence between Labour colleagues and others, a British | :48:12. | :48:20. | |
citizen currently imprisoned in Ethiopia and something we could be | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
devoting much more energy to where we too have the resources on site | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
there in country. At one time securing peace, strengthening human | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
rights and protecting our citizens abroad were at the top of the FCO's | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
priorities. Yet the recent state visit by China appears to | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
demonstrate that its priority is mainly commercial. It was up to the | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
Leader of the Opposition to specifically raise the problem for | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
terror arrangements which put the UK at a disadvantage in steel trade | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
with China. In recent months I would also add the priority of | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
international security in relation to the South China Sea question. | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
This government's foreign policy lacks balance. Trade is only one | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
side of the chorion with China or any other nation. The other side of | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
the coin, human rights, appears to have dropped in importance. The | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs has committed | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
to an internal review. We look forward to seeing that. Yet this | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
house is still waiting to be told if it will be made public. Ministers | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
should explain why they will not commit now to publishing this | :49:39. | :49:47. | |
document. Madame Deputy Speaker, in conclusion the FCO website states is | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
priorities are to protect British people, promote our global influence | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
and promote prosperity. But five years of cuts on, does it remain fit | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
to deliver these priorities? There is strong evidence, much of what we | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
have heard today, that the diplomatic operations have been | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
devalued and the workforce has been cut back. I look forward to hearing | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
the minister's comments on projected estimates and I hope to hear more on | :50:15. | :50:20. | |
how an adequately resourced FCO might lead to a more rounded foreign | :50:21. | :50:28. | |
policy. Madame Deputy Speaker, can I first of all that my honourable | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
friend the member for Reigate and the members of the foreign and | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
Commonwealth affairs Select Committee by ringing their report to | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
debate this afternoon. I think from all sides of the House there was a | :50:42. | :50:50. | |
common theme which was of the importance of an effective | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
diplomatic service and Foreign Office in advancing and defending | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
the interests of the United Kingdom in the face of multiple challenges | :51:02. | :51:09. | |
in different parts of the world. I would also in particular like to | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
thank those honourable members who paid tribute to the work of | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
individual members of her Majesty's diplomatic service. That gives me | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
the opportunity not only to thank them, but to put on record my own | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
thanks to that of the ministerial team for the professionalism and | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
commitment which members of the diplomatic service have shown to us | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
as to previous governments. They continue to work Day in, day out on | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
behalf of the people of this country. Now, I want to move on to | :51:46. | :51:58. | |
the question of the spending review and the settlement for the FCO, but | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
I cannot quite let the remarks of the honourable lady, the member for | :52:04. | :52:12. | |
Wood Green, though without comment. I completely understand that it is | :52:13. | :52:19. | |
the job of a spokesman for her Majesty's opposition to try to find | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
criticisms to make of her Majesty's government. I can remember doing | :52:24. | :52:29. | |
that myself some years back. But the degree of an easier that infected | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
herd judgment on this occasion really was astounding. It was as if | :52:37. | :52:47. | |
the years from 1997 - 2010 had been airbrushed out of the historical | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
record. It is worth reminding the House that under the governments of | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
Tony Blair and Gordon Brown the Foreign Office budget was cut, posts | :53:00. | :53:06. | |
were closed, the language school was axed altogether, the library was | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
scrapped and we got to the most crazy situation of all wear her | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
former colleague, Mr David Miliband, was reduced after the Treasury had | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
removed the traditional protection offered by the Treasury as a result | :53:21. | :53:31. | |
of payments of salaries and Brazil's, there was a removal of | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
that protection and Mr Miliband was reduced to having to draft members | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
of the diplomatic service in to establish a hedge fund unit inside | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
the Foreign Office so the Foreign Office could operate a hedge and | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
operation of its own. I really do not want to hear too many lectures | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
from the party opposite about Foreign Office expenditure and | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
sensible budgeting. Now, I think the Foreign Affairs Committee and the | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
House as a whole is entitled to ensure the government is held | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
properly to account for delivery of its responsibilities in the field of | :54:13. | :54:20. | |
foreign and security affairs. My honourable friend, the member for | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
Reigate, and the honourable member for Glasgow North, ask questions | :54:26. | :54:32. | |
about two or three specific items in the estimate. I will write to them | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
about two of those, but I can give my honourable friend some | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
satisfaction over the question of the Battle of New Orleans where I | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
have been given additional advice. The purpose of that commemoration | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
was to commemorate the British dead in that battle. Also to celebrate | :54:53. | :54:59. | |
the 200 years of peace between the United Kingdom and the United States | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
that have followed. The Foreign Office has contributed 215,000 US | :55:03. | :55:11. | |
dollars, other contributors have included the state of Louisiana, | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
Boeing, and a significant personal donation from our honorary Consul in | :55:20. | :55:28. | |
New Orleans. Can we see how adroit he and his team are by explaining | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
what project foxhound is and is this a welcome addition to the leisure of | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
her Majesty's government or is it something else? If my honourable | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
friend is expecting us to reopen the debate on field sports, I will | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
disappoint him as regards that. That is one of the subject on which I | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
will write to him and the honourable gentleman, the member for Glasgow | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
North. The Foreign Affairs Committee report published on the 20th of | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
October last year came before the publication of the spending review | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
as well as before the publication of the National Security strategy in | :56:12. | :56:12. | |
November last year. that is important because I is I | :56:13. | :56:58. | |
think has been the view... An effective and expert diplomatic | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
service is 1 very important element in allowing the country to respond | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
to the international challenges to interests which we face. There is no | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
avoiding the fact that even, despite that commitment, to protect the | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
budget of the FCO in real terms, there are still going to be some | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
difficult decisions for my right honourable friend the Foreign | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
Secretary to take about relative priorities within the Department but | :57:31. | :57:38. | |
I think that is no more than the challenges that would confront any | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
Secretary of State. We would all like to feel that the budget | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
available to us was unlimited in the real world, the budget is finite and | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
are constrained by the government's overall need to bring down the | :57:54. | :58:01. | |
deficit and address a long history of this country living beyond its | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
means in terms of the public finances. The future FCO review | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
about which my honourable friend the Member for Reigate asks me is | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
designed in part to find ways in which we can secure our objectives | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
as the Department by doing things differently. I have talked briefly | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
to the reviewer who is also speaking to other ministers and senior | :58:33. | :58:40. | |
officials, the purpose of the review is to advise ministers and senior | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
officials on how the FCO can be more expertly agile and focus more on the | :58:48. | :58:54. | |
Department's key priorities than it is at the moment and I expect the | :58:55. | :59:03. | |
review to be in a position to set out later this year, I hope, by the | :59:04. | :59:10. | |
end of the spring... It's conclusions and we intend there | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
should be a clear vision about how the organisation should look by 2020 | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
so that we can put changes in place within the Department which will | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
enable us with the priorities we have the resources we have... To | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
secure our objectives more effectively and efficiently than we | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
have done in the past. We are hoping that the review will ensure that | :59:39. | :59:44. | |
where efficiencies can be made, that those savings can be channelled | :59:45. | :59:51. | |
straight back into serving the core objectives that the Foreign | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
Secretary has said. My honourable friend did also ask me about the | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
Spending Review letter. The position is that the government's policy in | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
respect of all departments is not to publish settlement letters, there is | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
plenty of public information in terms of the Spending Review | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
documentation and the Chancellor's speech and answers on the letters | :00:14. | :00:15. | |
themselves are part of ongoing policy discussions and therefore we | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
consider that it is not appropriate that those should be in the public | :00:21. | :00:30. | |
domain at this time. The overall resource departmental expenditure | :00:31. | :00:32. | |
limit for the FCO will rise in line with inflation in each of the four | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
years covered by the Spending Review, increasing funding from 1.1 | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
billion in 201516 2 1 point to 4,000,000,000 x 20 1920. We believe | :00:45. | :00:52. | |
the settlement will unable be Department maintained contain | :00:53. | :00:54. | |
upper-class diplomatic service including a network of posts around | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
the world which host not only the FCO but also 32 other government | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
departments and agencies. This global presence and continued policy | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
leadership and fight will serve to protect national security, promote | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
respiratory and protect the UK's values overseas. In line with the | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
government commitment to spend 0 points 7% of gross national income | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
on development assistance, the FCO will be allocated additional ODA | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
resources more than doubling our spending from 273,000,000 in the | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
current financial year to 560,000,020 19, 20 and this will | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
enable us to proceed key foreign policy priorities and deliver the | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
ambition set out in the national security strategy and the | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
development strategy. The honourable member for South Kircher asked how | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
we reconcile the priorities of different departments and ensure | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
that these were as far as possible incorporated with an overall agreed | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
government approach and the answer to that, in part... There are | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
frequent conversations between ministers in the different | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
departments dealing with external affairs and between officials, but | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
the strategic direction on the key elements of the United Kingdom's | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
external policy in its broadest sense I set up to discussion by the | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
National Security Council chaired by the Prime Minister so it brings | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
together the Prime Minister, the Chancellor, Foreign Secretary, the | :02:37. | :02:37. | |
development secretary and Defence Secretary and other interested | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
ministers precisely so we can agree on an approach which harnesses the | :02:45. | :02:52. | |
different skills of all government departments and which also, the same | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
time, establishes which Department will contribute which resources to | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
that common object. The settlement includes increased spending to | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
support the UK's overseas territories. In order to meet our | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
long-standing commitment to address its reasonable needs, the FCO will | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
coordinate a new strategy for overseas territories and share a new | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
direct level board to coordinate cross government activity. | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
Furthermore as announced by the Prime Minister during the | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
Commonwealth heads of government meeting in Malta last year, the UK | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
will host the next such heads of government gathering in 2018 and the | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
FCO will be caught meeting that event. The Spending Review providing | :03:34. | :03:43. | |
the budget for scholarships and 201516 ?46,000,000 every year, and | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
operates 32 history that scheme has built up a large and influential | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
London eye network aligned with the interests of the UK and the funding | :03:52. | :04:00. | |
will ensure this continues. -- alum 9 network. On the question of | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
language training and skills... The FCO language centre was reopened in | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
September 2013 to renew focus on an investment in line which is as a car | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
diplomatic skill and ensuring we do get the right people with the right | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
skills in the right jobs to deliver or object was. -- as a cord that | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
dramatic skill. We want to improve Mandarin, Russia and Arabic skills | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
as a priority and as I look back at 2015, we trained in that year 34 | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
staff and Arabic, 14 in Mandarin, 24 in Russian as well as 35 in French | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
and 28 in Spanish. I completely accept there is more that needs to | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
be done but I believe we are making progress and there is a very clear | :04:50. | :04:56. | |
commitment to continued to develop language skills. In addition the FCO | :04:57. | :05:04. | |
will spend up to ?24,000,000 of the next four years to increase the | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
presence of its counter terrorism and extremism experts overseas. The | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
budget will allow us to focus on key foreign policy objectives including | :05:16. | :05:17. | |
tagging Daesh and ensuring security in Europe. And it will allow us to | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
do even more to prevent conflict and encourage stability in fragile | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
states. My right and noble friend the Foreign Secretary made it clear | :05:30. | :05:31. | |
that the department will need to become leaner and build on its core | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
strengths, to reinvest and refocus reason was as new priorities, that | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
is the reason for the review about which I have already spoken but that | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
is also the purpose behind the creation of a new digital | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
translation unit, the purpose of which is to ensure that FCO | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
officials have access to the latest techniques in terms of using modern | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
technology in their work. I would add that after a year at operation | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
the diplomatic academy is already boosting proper policy capability | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
and specialist skills. My honourable friend the Member for Reigate asked | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
about the tech overhaul programme, we planned global deployment of this | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
from 2016 through into 2018 and headline figure of 105,000,000 has | :06:23. | :06:30. | |
been agreed by the FCO board. We believe the overhaul will provide | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
greater speed, stability and reliability and partly by reducing | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
the time that at present is lost because of the inadequacy of IT | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
systems, will increase the product Liberty staff members as well. We | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
are using our IT partner BAE Systems to deliver the tech overhaul to | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
industry best practice standards. A number of honourable members asked | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
about human rights. We have taken action to mainstream human rights | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
across the FCO network. Human rights remains a priority for us but we | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
believe this should not something that is ring fenced for just if you | :07:09. | :07:16. | |
specialised staff but should be the responsibility of all British | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
diplomats. More details of the approach is provided in the written | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
evidence to the Foreign Affairs Committee human rights inquiry to | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
which my honourable and noble friend Baroness Ainley gave evidence on the | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
24th of February. I thank him for giving way on that point. I have | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
heard what he said about mainstreaming within the FCO but is | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
he in a position to confirm whether he expects the number of people that | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
I referred to earlier, 240 people working on human rights versus 2900 | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
working on prosperity, whether he expects that ratio to change | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
significantly? The difficulty with providing numbers on that is that we | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
will be talking about people, particularly people in posts but | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
also desk officers in London who will spend part of their time on | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
human rights and other parts of their time on prosperity and | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
advancing British economic interests. I don't actually see a | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
contradiction between the 2 because when I talk to British business | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
about possible investment markets, 1 of the things they frequently say to | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
me is that when they assess the country in terms of the investment | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
opportunity, 1 of the criteria that they use is how good the rule of law | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
is in that country, because from a business point of view they don't | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
want to take the risk of putting money into a place and then finding | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
that because of corruption that either their money or their license | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
or permit is revoked at the behest of some political leader there. A | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
country with a defective rule of law that is of the kind that will | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
attract inward investment is not guaranteed but it is more likely | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
also to be the sort of country that has genuinely independent courts and | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
is going to respect the rights of the individuals as well. I think the | :09:17. | :09:25. | |
2 do go together. In addition to resource allocation the FCO will | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
provide a flat cash settlement of 98,000,000 of capital funding per | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
year to invest in our estate. This will provide further investment | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
across the estate to maintain our global network and to keep diplomats | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
and other government staff safe while they are working for the UK | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
abroad. Additional capital requirements beyond this will be | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
funded from asset sales and recycling of receipts and were | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
necessary through records to the reserve. I was asked about Whitehall | :09:55. | :10:04. | |
funds. I can confirm that government spending on international priorities | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
will increase further with a larger conflict and stability fund, new | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
prosperity fund and more funding from the bridge Council and BBC | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
World Service. The conflict stability and security fund through | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
which the FCO funds much of its conflict prevention work will grow | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
by 19% in real terms, by 2019, 22 a total of 1 1/2 billion every year. | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
This will lengthen our ability to support stabilisation in countries | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
like Syria, Ukraine, Somalia and Afghanistan. And will strengthen our | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
response to serious transnational threats including extremism, serious | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
and organised crime and illegal migration. In terms of the CSS set | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
allocations for 2015, 16, 400,000,000 was allocated to ODA | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
eligible countries and 633,000,000 to non- ODA countries. The new | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
prosperity fund will be worth 1.3 billion over the next 5 years and | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
will be used to support global growth, trade and stability. This | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
will help us to reduce poverty in emerging and developing countries | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
and also open up new markets and opportunities to the United Kingdom. | :11:21. | :11:39. | |
Funding for the British Council will also be protected in real terms, but | :11:40. | :11:48. | |
there will need to be a shift in the balance to support an expansion of | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
the council's work in developing countries. In addition to this, the | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
British Council will be able to bid for up to ?700 million in additional | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
funding to improve links with emerging economies, help tackle | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
extremism globally and support good governance. I was asked about the | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
Department's human rights work through the Magna Carta fund and the | :12:13. | :12:22. | |
balance between ODA and non-ODA countries. 1407I ODA countries and | :12:23. | :12:37. | |
four are not, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Russia and Israel. I think there has | :12:38. | :12:48. | |
been agreement across the House that a strong diplomatic service and | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
worldwide network is essential for this country to maintain its | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
position in the world. I believe the government's protecting Foreign and | :12:58. | :13:03. | |
Commonwealth Office will ensure we are able to play a pivotal role, | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
both bilaterally and through the membership of the many international | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
and multinational organisations of which we are part to play a pivotal | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
role in tackling the most important global challenges. I would simply | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
say without straying too far from the subject matter that I agree | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
completely with the point my honourable friend the member for | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
Newbury may about how we could amplify the United Kingdom's | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
diplomatic reach to our active membership of the European Union. I | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
am confident the outcome of the spending review is not only good for | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
the FCO and good for British diplomacy, but most important of all | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
it is good for the interests of the people of the United Kingdom. I | :13:52. | :14:01. | |
briefly thank honourable and right honourable members for taking part | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
in this debate on the estimates on the committee's report. I did agree | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
somewhat with the points that were made in the course of this debate | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
that our ability to actually oversee the estimates properly as an | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
institution is historically woeful and does need addressing. But I am | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
grateful for the support of my honourable friend 's for Newbury, | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
Basildon and Billericay. If I may pick up a point made by the | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
honourable lady on diversity. It was addressed by the Minister. Clearly | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
we will be better off if we have a service that can properly reflect | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
the country in which we live, but one wants to be careful about trying | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
to move from an organisation that does not reflect it and getting | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
there in too much of a hurry because you might lose some of the talent | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
and ability that is already sitting in that institution. There is an | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
issue about the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and how it made | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
that change. It goes across to appease about the budget that the | :15:16. | :15:25. | |
office has. My right honourable friend in replying to this said it | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
would not be appropriate to place in the public domain at this time the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
public expenditure letters. He will recognise a piece of yes Minister | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
speak at the dispatch box as well as anyone else, given his experience, | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
and he is inviting a blizzard of enquiries if we do not get that | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
detail. There is a real need for more progress in language skills and | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
he accepts that. But my concern is when he says the department must | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
become leaner, this is a department that is already starving and cannot | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
allocate its resources effectively. In relation to what he said about | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
the allocation of the conflict, stability and security fund being | :16:10. | :16:18. | |
60-40 in non-ODA countries, that illustrates the challenges that the | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
FCO is facing and those are challenges the committee will | :16:25. | :16:26. | |
continue to examine in the course of this Parliament. Order, order. | :16:27. | :16:37. | |
Understanding order number 54, the question necessary to dispose of the | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
motion stands over until 7pm tomorrow. We now come to the motion | :16:40. | :16:50. | |
on supplementary estimate for the Home Office, the subject of debate | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
being reformed of the police funding formula. To move. I beg to move. Mr | :16:55. | :17:07. | |
Keith Vaz. Madame Deputy Speaker, I am very pleased that house has the | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
opportunity to focus on the important issue of the police | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
funding formula. I will set up a background Timeline before assessing | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
where this process is today. The fundamental concern of the Home | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
Affairs Select Committee is when is the new review going to start? I | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
want to thank other members of the committee who have agreed | :17:31. | :17:32. | |
unanimously to our report. The majority of peace forces, Chief | :17:33. | :17:57. | |
constables, PCCs and members of Parliament welcomed the launch of | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
the police funding formula review last year. The manner in which | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
police funding is currently distributed is outdated, inefficient | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
and not fit for purpose. I want to begin by commending the policing | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
minister for taking on this challenge head on. However, Madame | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
Deputy Speaker, his ambition, which is shared by the whole house, has | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
not been matched by the process. When the Home Office launched a | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
public consultation on the 21st of July 2015, it only allowed a period | :18:34. | :18:41. | |
of weeks. After receiving an initial 1700 responses on the 28th of | :18:42. | :18:49. | |
October 2015, the Home Office laid out their proposed refinements to | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
the model. This second proposal was described as inadequate by amongst | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
others Tony Hogg, the Devon and Cornwall police and crime | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
Commissioner. It gave PCCs and chief constables just three weeks to | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
respond. There are -- the refined model showed that 32 would increase | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
their share, however the Chief constables and PCCs were puzzled as | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
to how these sums of had been calculated. Eventually it took | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
Andrew White, the chief executive in the office of the Devon and Cornwall | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
PCC to purchase the original data and write to the Home Office on the | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
2nd of November to inform the Home Office that it had used the wrong | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
data in making their calculations. The whole police service and this | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
has owes a debt of gratitude to Andrew White for his actions. In a | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
letter from the permanent Secretary to me, he has since stated that this | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
error occurred because officials got confused with similar filenames and | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
therefore used the wrong set of data. When this error was | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
discovered, the director-general of the crime and policing group at the | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
Home Office admitted she did not understand the significance of the | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
response that she was signing. I am not sure if that admission was to | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
keep faith in the system or to question it further. Overnight | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
police forces across the country had swung from being winners to losers | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
and vice versa. Chief Constable Giles York from Sussex police said | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
his force when from a ?10 million loss to a ?2 million gain. The | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
Derbyshire chief constable said it went from a 20 million gain to a 7 | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
million loss. Chief Constable Simon Cole demonstrated Leicestershire | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
Constabulary was set to lose 700,000 under the old system, but would now | :21:07. | :21:13. | |
lose 2.4 million. Subsequently the speaker granted my urgent question | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
on the 19th of November 2015, and this process was rightly suspended | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
by the policing Minister. He again should be commended for coming to | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
the dispatch box and for agreeing that the sums were wrong and the | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
process had to be altered. I do not want to dwell any further on the | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
history except to say, as the report says, that this was a shambolic end | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
to a fully managed process which significantly damaged the | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
relationship between the Home Office and its primary stakeholders the | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
police. So presently police funding is being supposedly given by a | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
formula which has not been operated for a number of years. That is a | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
formula that is over a decade old, not based on the latest consensus | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
data, but the previous census, impossible for police forces to | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
calculate because much of the data is out of date and it does not take | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
into account the modern nature of policing. Of course I will. I thank | :22:21. | :22:29. | |
the honourable member. Having been on the Public Accounts Committee, | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
would he agree the formula only reflects the demand of crime on the | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
peas, but does not reflect many of the issues that they have to pick | :22:39. | :22:49. | |
up? The shadow policing Minister is also absent. I am sure he will be | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
coming in very soon to make up for lost time. On the first point I will | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
be coming to that in my speech. He raises a very important issue on the | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
capabilities of the police and the new demands that are being placed on | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
21st century policing. The Derbyshire police chief said if the | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
current formula was still valid, it would be reflecting a reality which | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
was ten years old. He is also clear as many other chief constables are, | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
that there remains a consensus we need to restart the process moving | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
to a fairer funding model. Also a consensus that is reflected | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
throughout the House. Since the publication of the grout report in | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
2015, concerns have been raised that in real terms this represents a cut | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
to grant levels of 1.4% and requires increases to the police element of | :23:45. | :23:55. | |
the council tax precept. It is being raised in Cheshire, Northumbria, | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
Humberside and Thames Valley, the area partly represented by the Prime | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
Minister and the Home Secretary in this house. The West Yorkshire | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
police estimate they have received a 3.2% cut in real terms even after | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
the PCC agreed to the maximum precept increase. The committee | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
published its report on the 11th of December. The government's response | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
is known 19 days late. The first question to ask the Minister is when | :24:24. | :24:31. | |
is the response going to come? Last Tuesday five police and crime | :24:32. | :24:33. | |
commissioners gave evidence to the Home Affairs Committee, including | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
Adam Charles from Derbyshire, Sir Clive loader from Leicestershire, | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
Katie born from Sussex and Jane Kennedy from Merseyside. It is clear | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
that the police and crime commissioners had not been consulted | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
on the new review. Ian Hopkins, the chief constable of Greater | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
Manchester, says he wishes to work in a collaborative approach with the | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
Home Office as do many PCCs and Chiefs. Given the concern based on | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
before this debate by chief constables, it is also clear they | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
have not been in consulted, though the minister alluded in the last | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
debate only last Wednesday, when he indicated he had met a number of | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
chief constables, I am sure he will enlighten us as to his further | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
discussions when he answers this debate. Chief Constable Neil Rhodes | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
and deputy chief constable Heather Roach informed me they had met the | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
Minister last Wednesday, the 24th of February, to discuss the formula, | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
and I hope he will tell us the outcome of the meeting. Can the | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
Minister tell us about his engagement with police forces and | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
his reassurance to them that he is taking this matter as seriously as | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
he was when he last appeared before the House? One issue that needs to | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
be clarified is the capability review which has been undertaken by | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
the National chief constables' committee, under the leadership of | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
Sara Thornton. If the Minister could advise the House as to how far these | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
deliberations have reached, that will assist us in knowing something | :26:19. | :26:20. | |
of the timetable he has in mind. It's concerning since the formula | :26:21. | :26:31. | |
changes were abandoned last year, there have been no proposals to work | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
on. Policing Minister wrote to me on the 1st of February with an update | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
on formula arrangements but as I said, he hasn't given us a date as | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
to when this review will commence. Police forces need to know what is | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
going to happen. Iain Drysdale, the director of business services for | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
Kent Police said continuing uncertainty is unhelpful and a | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
transition to a new arrangement should be made as soon as possible. | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
Following the glaring errors last year it is self-evident that the | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
Home Office should redouble its effort to produce a fairer funding | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
model, it's clear the funding review should be restarted as swiftly as | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
possible. Madam Deputy Speaker, I know you be interested that Stephen | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
Kavanagh, the Chief Constable of Essex Police, states any | :27:26. | :27:27. | |
prevarication on behalf of the Home Office would hugely disappointing | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
and regrettable. Many have argued that it would be wrong to change the | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
formula in a period of austerity. On the contrary, austerity could have | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
been a starting point for an informed reassessment of the formula | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
in order to incentivise the police for reforms and deal with other | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
inefficiencies. The flat rate production to all forces continue to | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
penalised those who have already received less. However, following | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
the Chancellor's announcement which the committee welcomed in the | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
Comprehensive Spending Review on the 25th of them but, this is less of | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
the concern, in fact, the Home Office has renewed opportunity to | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
review the formula. The 3 key failings apart from the standard | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
stake of confusing data file names was essentially process failures, to | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
share it on that occasions at an early stage which meant beta errors | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
went unnoticed until it was too late, to set our transitional | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
arrangements at an early stage which meant that users were even more | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
concerned about the potentially immediate damaging impact on the | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
budget and to allow sufficient period for consultation, in | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
particular with PCC is and Chief constables. Does the Minister except | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
that these were serious failings and that there will be addressed in a | :28:55. | :29:02. | |
future review process? I will. I am chair of the committee... The | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
Minister accepted accountability in relation to the mistake but he was | :29:08. | :29:15. | |
very much, sold a hospital pass to have to defend his position and the | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
mistake was made at senior level in relation to the management of the | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
process. We need reassurance this won't happen again and needs to be | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
accountability in the management of the Home Office to make sure the | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
catastrophic which wasn't picked up and communicated to ministers | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
doesn't happen again. He is quite right and he made these points | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
during the evidence sessions when we took evidence from various Chief | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
Constable is and Police and Crime Commissioner is. It's absolutely | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
vital that they should be proper accountability during this process | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
and I will come onto we agreed on the committee, should be the best | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
way forward. The Home Affairs Select Committee made a number of | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
recommendations on factors which must be included in the new funding | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
review. We must recognise policing has changed fundamentally over the | :30:05. | :30:06. | |
last 10 years but funding has never adjusted to it. PCCsfrom South | :30:07. | :30:18. | |
Wales, and West Yorkshire, are among those who identified the growing | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
number of non- crime demand and police time. Almost all police | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
forces can point to a range of modern demands of police time, | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
including terrorism, cyber-crime, mortar and slavery and child expert. | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
Committee also considered it inexplicable that diversity is not 1 | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
of the categories within the funding formula. The National lead for | :30:42. | :30:50. | |
prevent highlights factors like acquired language skills, | :30:51. | :30:52. | |
translation services and resources required in emerging communities and | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
coming as I do... Madam Deputy Speaker... From Leicester... We also | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
have the added word and perhaps, to the outcome of the match at 7:45 | :31:01. | :31:13. | |
PM today and the 10 other remaining matches. It's quite clear that the | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
additional demands on policing in Leicester will be profound! Of | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
course I give way. I think the honourable gentleman forgiving way. | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
Would he not agree that Wales has its own specific policing needs? He | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
mentioned diversity and language and language explicitly springs to mind | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
and that the growing powers of the Welsh Assembly call out for policing | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
to be devolved, particularly pertinent that the Secretary of | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
State for Wales is committed to a thorough overhaul yesterday, I | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
believe, to the draft will spill. The honourable lady is quite right | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
and we make that point. Hush macro draft Wales Bill. The police must | :31:58. | :32:08. | |
save what they are doing now and the government must save what they want | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
to fund and of course, the situation in Wales requires special attention. | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
The indicators proposed by the Home Office in determining funding failed | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
to take into account many points raised in the report. And thus it | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
misses 70 2 80% of police demand not linked to volume of crime. The Home | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
Office needs to make clear what tasks 21st-century policing is | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
expected to take on and then decide how much it is prepared to fund. Of | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
course it is important that police forces should work in a | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
collaborative way, indeed, government is working in a | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
collaborative way. When the Minister came before the House in November to | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
tell us that the police funding formula was being suspended he | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
wasn't the Minister for the Fire Service is a government has decided | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
to look across government and make sure it collaborates properly so if | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
it can do so, so can local police forces. But if that happens, then it | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
must be part of the funding review formula. 1 of the Kubrick and Asians | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
made by the select committee was the appointment of an independent panel | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
to assess the Home Office in formulating the revised proposals. | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
It isn't because we don't trust Home Office officials to add up. But we | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
do need a robust and defensible way of looking at this formula that | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
needs to be independent and therefore, we went to the trouble of | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
suggesting the kinds of organisations that should sit on the | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
panel, the chartered Institute of Public Finance and accountancy, the | :34:01. | :34:02. | |
College of policing, the Institute for Fiscal Studies, the Royal | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
statistical Society, you will notice, Madam Deputy Speaker, an | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
emphasis on those who can add and therefore can crunch statistics. | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
There is an ongoing project between the London School of Economics and | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
HMRC to provide a sound academic basis for identifying the underlying | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
demands for police time. Let's use the expertise of our academic | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
institutions... Such work particularly when led by an | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
independent panel commit the Policing Minister's job even easier. | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
This is the last time I will give way, I know other members want to | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
speak. I am grateful to my honourable friend. Did he and his | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
fellow committee members, when they were looking at the potential | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
balance of the independent panel, consider experts on serious and | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
organised crime? Because it would be important to understand any impact | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
at Italy on the London police force of the pressures the matter under to | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
continue the battle against serious and organised crime? Not just from | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
the point of view of what happens in Harrow which is different to the | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
point of view of what happens in Wandsworth, for example, but the | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
issue is serious and organised crime is something that grow in the last | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
10 years and he's right, it needs to be properly represented as part of | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
this review. At this time, Madam Deputy Speaker, the Home Office has | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
2 realistic options removing forward, they can spend the next 2 | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
years on a very long consultative detailed review and run accurate | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
data against the formula, they could implement the formula changes are | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
proposed last year after a further period of consultation or they can | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
go to an independent method of checking on what is in the best | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
interests of local police forces. Of course there will always be winners | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
and losers from this process, there will be police constables and Police | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
and Crime Commissioner is with different voices. But to leave the | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
situation in limbo as it is at the moment, is in the view of the | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
committee, unacceptable. Doing nothing is not really an option. And | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
it is not an issue that can be part until say 2019, which, | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
unfortunately, or some of the rumours that are emerging in the | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
press weather from the Foreign Office elsewhere. This time, I hope | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
the Minister is going to have all the information before we proceed, I | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
hope he will have to hand the capability report which has been | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
prepared by the police chiefs because their involvement is | :36:39. | :36:40. | |
absolutely critical because I would not like the review to start and | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
then stop because there is going to be another review. But we do want | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
this process started as soon as this process started as soon as | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
possible. From our point of view, the sooner the better and we do want | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
to make sure that everybody in the policing family is properly | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
consulted so we get no repetition of what has happened in the past. The | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
question is as on the order paper. Richard Drax. Madam Deputy Speaker | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
it's a pleasure to take part in this debate and to follow the honourable | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
member for Leicester East who always speaks in a measured and reasonable | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
way and I agree with much of what he said. I am most grateful and I think | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
before I start my speech, to Dorset Police, they or police force which | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
affect me personally in my constituency and I would like to put | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
on record as I always do, my thanks and gratitude and admiration for the | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
men and women who patrol the streets day and night and keep us safe in | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
our homes and on those streets. It's not until you read or hear about | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
some of the appalling incidents that are police officers have to attend, | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
often with little protection, frankly, they are not armed, and I'd | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
pay credit to the female officers who are not the same size as their | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
gentlemens colleagues and I have seen and heard them go in, fearless, | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
to look after us without any thought for their own safety and I pay | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
tribute to all the police officers in the country and in particular, to | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
Dorset where my constituency is based. I am most grateful, Madam | :38:25. | :38:31. | |
Deputy Speaker, to the doors of Police and Crime Commissioner Martyn | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
Underhill who I know the Minister knows well and has worked with and | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
corresponded with and I believe they have a good relationship which is | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
excellent news for Dorset Police. They have currently furnished me | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
with most of the fact I am about to divorce. Dorset has languished at | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
the bottom of the police funding table for many, many years now. | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
Heavily disadvantaged by the current police allocation formula which | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
evolved in turn from the old standard spending assessment. In | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
last year's discussions, the Minister described the current | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
formula and I quote... Complex, Paik and out of date, he was absolutely | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
correct. -- OPEC. It remains effectively unchecked. Even with a | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
review as has already been mentioned in 2009 slashed 10, nothing has been | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
implemented so Dorset Police remains at the bottom of the pile, a | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
situation that cannot and must not be allowed to continue, Madam Deputy | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
Speaker. The current allocation formula is based on four criteria. | :39:40. | :39:48. | |
1st, a central allocation, 2nd, a needs -based allocation, 3rd, a | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
relative resources adjustment, 4th the formula damping. That is not | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
anything to do with children or changing nappies... But can I just | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
say, literary wording of these criteria are conjugated enough. | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
Obviously, the Minister looking at the formula, I hope, makes it | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
simpler. -- complicated enough. For us and Dorset this is the worst of | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
all possible worlds. Firstly, the central allocation is historically | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
the lowest in the country. Secondly, the needs -based allocation fails to | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
take into account many of the issues particular to a seaside county. Not | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
least, tourism. Upon which so much relies. 3rd, a relative resources | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
adjustment enables us to crawl from bottom to 3rd from bottom, then the | :40:48. | :40:55. | |
precept is added in. But the current methodology for the art or egg, the | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
relative resources adjustment, is based per head of population. For as | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
council tax from which the precept is raised, is levied per household, | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. Let's not forget the precept is limited to 2%. | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
Before a local referendum is triggered. Fourthly, despite the | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
formula being changed in 2010, and the effect of that never being | :41:24. | :41:29. | |
implemented, Dorset Police are still losing out to the tune of ?1.9 | :41:30. | :41:37. | |
million annually. Which it's never received. Year after year, ?1.9 | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
million. I know the Minister who is listening | :41:42. | :42:00. | |
to my speech will know that ?1.9 million is a lot of money for the | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
police in Dorset who are trying to do their job. So whilst we welcome | :42:04. | :42:11. | |
the commitment to protect policing in real terms, an announcement that | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
was greeted by police chiefs and police and crime commissioners | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
across the country, further savings still have to be made. Worryingly | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
when the aggregate grant amounts were finalised by the Minister on | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
the 4th of February, which assumed the maximum precept available, | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
Dorset was 0.6% worse off when compared with the damp and figures | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
for 2015 and 2016. It is also critical that after last year's | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
consultation a glitch in the data that has meant any change to the | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
funding formula will be delayed for another year. Hopefully we will hear | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
more from the Minister as to where we stand in a future formula when he | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
sums up in the end. What I would like to do if I make is to put | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
Dorset's case to the Minister. It is particularly disadvantaged by the | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
current funding formula that the funding is based on. Tourism is | :43:17. | :43:24. | |
critical to a county like Dorset, but it has been ignored when | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
assessing funding. Like our strategic partners in Devon and | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
Cornwall we all find our beautiful surroundings can be a burden as well | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
as a blessing, Madame Deputy Speaker. The current needs -based | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
element underestimates the pressures that the sheer number of tourists | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
place on police. The county's population of 1.1 million rises | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
considerably during the summer months. Visitors stay over 14.5 | :43:54. | :44:02. | |
million knights and day-trippers make 26.3 million outings to Dorset | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
every year. This influx is not accounted for. Nor is the nature of | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
the county which is divided into two, the urban park to the east and | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
the rural to the West. Policing in Dorset costs more in time, resources | :44:22. | :44:28. | |
and even fuel, Madame Deputy Speaker. The formula takes no | :44:29. | :44:37. | |
account of this, neither does it cater for the high concentration of | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
bars and clubs in places like Bournemouth. However, if you look at | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
the number of buyers and clubs spread across the county as a whole, | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
the impact on policing as far as the formula is concerned is reduced | :44:55. | :45:06. | |
considerably. Any formula would severely disadvantage our police and | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
it should include density as well. The nature of crime must also be | :45:14. | :45:21. | |
taken into account. Terrorism, cyber crime, people trafficking, sexual | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
abuse and protecting the vulnerable are all more prevalent than they | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
were and consume large resources. They apply to rural Dorset just as | :45:30. | :45:37. | |
much as any other police area. Can I make four suggestions to the | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
Minister that any new funding formula can follow, these simple | :45:44. | :45:51. | |
principles. The first, it should be stable from year to year avoiding | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
any fluctuations. Secondly, it should be made up of multi-year | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
settlements to allow certainty. Thirdly it should be transparent and | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
easy to understand and easier than the current one. Any changes should | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
be phased in making the transition smoother. Lastly, can we get rid of | :46:10. | :46:17. | |
the hangover from the local authority days when labour costs | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
were taken into account. Today with the existing national pay scales | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
across police forces, there should be no difference in labour costs | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
except for in London. A case in point is where Dorset currently | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
receives nothing, but across the border in Hampshire they get an | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
extra 4.6%. This simply cannot be right, Madame Deputy Speaker. To sum | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
up I must ask the Minister that any new formula must please from Dorset | :46:49. | :46:57. | |
police's perspective and from all my constituents and from constituents | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
of other honourable members of this house, the more equitable. We are | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
not asking for all the cake, Madame Deputy Speaker, just a fair slice. | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
Dorset police do an outstanding job and both they and the residents they | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
so ably served need to know that all relevant factors have been taken | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
into account when a new formula is announced. Finally, before I sit | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
down, and I believe I am the only speaker on this side of the House | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
and have the great privilege of listening to the members of the | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
opposition, I maintain my remark at her side who are listening to my | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
every word and tell them with great assurance that they can probably | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
relax for the next hour or two. The reason being is that speeches made | :47:53. | :48:00. | |
in the opposition's debate on police funding on opposition day is likely | :48:01. | :48:07. | |
to be repeated. Can I tell you why? I have a message here to all Labour | :48:08. | :48:18. | |
MPs from the Shadow Home Secretary speaker and he says, as you have | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
already been a great help in contributing to our debates, would | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
you be so kind as to show your support once again? There will be no | :48:28. | :48:36. | |
need to write a whole new speech as you can use previous speaking notes. | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, I should sit down and reassure Hansard they can | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
relax, have a cup of tea and listen to the debate knowing that what is | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
about to be heard may have already been said. Mr Gareth Thomas. It is a | :48:51. | :49:05. | |
pleasure to follow the honourable member for South Dorset. I have | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
always enjoyed campaigning for the Labour Party in South Dorset and I | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
very much support the idea that the next police funding formula should | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
be partly based on the number of bars and clubs in an area. On that | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
basis I think London would see a substantial increase in its funding | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
formula. But perhaps as I have started off on a consensual basis, I | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
might invite the honourable member for South Dorset to agree that the | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
number of major events taking place in a police force's area ought to be | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
taken into account in the funding formula as well. I speak as someone | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
who has Wembley Stadium very close to his constituency, which always | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
attracts and needs a substantial police presence to ensure that it is | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
properly and effectively policed. I very much enjoyed the speech from | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
our honourable friend, the chair of the Select Committee, the right | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
honourable member for Leicester. The detail of the worked that his Select | :50:17. | :50:25. | |
Committee has been set out. The most worrying part of his speech was the | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
suggestion that reports are indicating that there is going to be | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
no detailed clarity for police forces in terms of this funding | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
formula going forward until 2019. I very much hope that the minister in | :50:41. | :50:50. | |
his remarks will be able to set the Select Committee's concern at rest. | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
At the moment there appears to be no sense of clarity for the | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
Metropolitan police as to what their funding is set to be for the rest of | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
the Parliament from 2017 onwards. As my intervention on the honourable | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
member for Leicester South indicated, Leicester East I beg your | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
pardon, there is huge concern in London given the role of the | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
Metropolitan police in tackling serious and organised crime, given | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
its importance in the fight against cyber crime, and the whole house | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
knows how increasingly important that is, and indeed the sense that | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
rising crime in London is also putting substantial pressure on the | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
police resources that we do have available to us at the moment. Some | :51:46. | :51:52. | |
in the House will have seen that you were appalled just two weeks ago | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
published a major report on the scale of illegal activity by | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
organised criminal gangs across Europe and beyond in terms of people | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
trafficking. One of the centres they identified for people trafficking, | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
both trafficking people into, but also centres where operations are | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
managed by these criminal gangs, is London. Again I re-emphasise the | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
significance of the point that London needs to have through the | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
Metropolitan police as much resource as is possible to tackle and bear | :52:31. | :52:39. | |
down on serious and organised crime. That is in particular if we want to | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
tackle illegal immigration and other forms of organised crime going | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
forward. All honourable members will be only too aware of the terrorist | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
threat that we face and London in particular I would suggest faces a | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
particular challenge in terms of counterterrorism. I do hope the | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
Minister will funding formula does take account of | :53:05. | :53:13. | |
the particular threat that is in London. On that point is a former | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
serviceman, we watched the atrocity in Paris and the police already arms | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
were expected to enter a building immediately. There was no time to | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
hang around and rescue people. Do we have sufficient funding and training | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
facilities to ensure that those who do find themselves, God forbid, in | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
such a situation are equipped to enter that building immediately? It | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
cost an awful lot more money to meet that level of expertise. The | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
honourable gentleman makes a very important point. I think we need to | :53:50. | :53:56. | |
make sure that police forces are working collaboratively to make sure | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
there are enough trained individuals. The Metropolitan police | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
has particular expertise in this regard to share in the training | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
facility at Hendon that the Metropolitan police force runs and | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
continues to turn out some extremely highly trained and effective police | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
officers who work for the Met and also elsewhere as well. The | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
honourable gentleman is absolutely right that the attacks in Paris last | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
year brought into stark relief the threat in terms of terrorism that we | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
all face here in the UK. I would suggest that London in particular | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
places that going forward. The ongoing challenges for the | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
Metropolitan police are that crime is rising again, recorded crime is | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
up 5% in the last 12 months. Violent crime in London is up 22%. The | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
Metropolitan police are operating in the context of 1600 police officers | :55:01. | :55:09. | |
posts to having gone since 2010 and almost 6000 community support | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
officers' posts being axed in the last five years. In my constituency | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
in that period 137 police officers, sergeants and police and community | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
support Officer positions have been axed in that period. We were used to | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
neighbourhood policing of a sergeant, three or four police | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
constables and three or four police and community support officers. Now | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
we are reduced to one PC if we are lucky and one PCO if we are very | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
lucky as well. What has more recently been revealed is the | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
substantial pressure on the Met leading to more and more police | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
officers from the suburbs, in particular from Harrow, having to be | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
taken out of the borough of Harrow where they would normally do their | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
policing work and being used to police major events or indeed | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
respond to rising crime in inner London. In the last 12 months on | :56:15. | :56:23. | |
occasion 22% of police officer time in Harrow has been abstracted to | :56:24. | :56:33. | |
other boroughs. That is 22% of the time Harrow police officers have | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
worked has been spent not policing the streets of Harrow, but instead | :56:39. | :56:40. | |
policing other streets in London. The Minister may argue that some | :56:41. | :56:54. | |
operational decision for police chiefs but it's an operational issue | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
which is being driven by a shortage of resources that Sir Bernard | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
Hogan-Howe has at his disposal. Harrow, yes it's 1 of the safest or | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
in London but there are still significant problems in terms of | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
crime, fear of crime, significant problems in terms of anti-social | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
behaviour. My constituents and other constituents in Harrow want to be | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
able to know that our police officers are policing our streets | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
instead of policing streets elsewhere in London. What is | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
particularly concerning my constituents such that I have felt | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
that I need to intervene in this debate, is that there is a proposal | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
to merge the police forces in Harrow with the police force in Barnet and | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
in Brent to create a tribe or a command to act 2 out of the 3 | :57:51. | :57:58. | |
borough commanders in the area and create just 1 borough commander for | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
the 3 areas. Brent has a higher crime problem than Harrow and has | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
the particular challenge of managing events at Wembley. Barnett, a very | :58:14. | :58:22. | |
different set of challenges and again, a slightly higher crime area | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
but my constituents fear, quite rightly, it seems to me, Harrow | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
police, if there is a tribe are commander, will be more easily | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
deployed into Brent or Barnett away from Harrow and given the lack of | :58:38. | :58:50. | |
investment that there has been, my constituents fear that if a tribe | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
are command goes ahead there will be a question over the future of Harrow | :58:56. | :59:03. | |
police station going forward. I ask that the Minister, if he doesn't | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
feel he can intervene to give reassurance to my constituents in | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
the debate today, and I recognise his reluctance to do that, I ask him | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
to have a quiet word with Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe to encourage him | :59:20. | :59:30. | |
to drop this plan for a tri-borough command. Instead of us having to | :59:31. | :59:41. | |
share at with the other birds and that point, I welcome the select | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
committee report and I look forward to the Minister and his response. Mr | :59:46. | :59:54. | |
James Berry. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I welcome this report and I | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
start by saying the Minister was brave to tackle the issue of police | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
funding, brave for 2 reasons, firstly, it's always going to be | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
difficult to resolve a funding formula without acrimony unless you | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
have at your disposal, sufficient funds to fund every force to the | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
level of the best funded and clearly the Minister was not going to have | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
those available to him and secondly, funding a police force across the | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
United Kingdom, or certainly in England and Wales, with the great | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
diversity in policing needs across the county of those countries, is | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
always going to be intensely difficult. But it's right that | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
taxpayer funds for an essential service such as the police are | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
allocated in a fair and transparent way. I agree with my right | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
honourable friend the Member for Leicester East and determine of our | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
Select Committee, that the police need to provide evidence of the work | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
they actually do and often, but will be work well beyond what we | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
understand to be traditional policing work within the office of | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
Constable. Police pick-up a large amount of slack, that is not picked | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
up by other public services or private sector organisations and | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
they do a huge amount more than I think many people appreciate and the | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
National Audit Office, in fact, published a report finding that a | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
significant number of police forces are not actually aware of the demand | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
on their own services so it's incumbent on police forces to be | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
aware of the demand services from classic policing, not quite yet... | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
From classic policing functions and wider functions that they make those | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
demands clear to the Home Office and then, the Home Office, as the | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
honourable member for Leicester East said, that the Home Office makes it | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
clear to those police force is what functions they actually funded to | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
perform. The pause in this funding formula review... I will. I am very | :02:05. | :02:14. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman forgiving weight but does he also | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
recognise that cuts that are being made another public services and I | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
look at dental health for example, access to beds, is actually putting | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
pressure on police forces up and down this country in terms of having | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
to in the extreme circumstances, use cells for housing people with mental | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
health problems? I thank the honourable member for the | :02:40. | :02:41. | |
intervention and there is more mental health funding in front line | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
but using the net has been in the past and it's important police work | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
in tandem with clinical commissioning groups to make sure | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
with the police force to make sure with the police force to make sure | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
they can tackle mental health issues rather than bringing those people | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
into police cells which is often the very worst place for someone | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
suffering a mental health episode to be and they can be directed | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
elsewhere and I know in my neighbouring borough of Richmond | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
police are already doing that in conjunction with the clinical | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
commissioning group. The pause in this review of the funding formula | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
was arrived at the cause of the financial implications that 1 Police | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
and Crime Commissioner was able to work out. Despite that background, I | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
query and paused before signing up to the suggestion in the report that | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
the figures should be revealed or the likely figures should be | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
revealed because and before the end of the consultation because if the | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
aim is to arrive at the sound set of principles, it is difficult to | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
obtain a balanced response from people who stand to lose out from an | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
allocation based on a principle, however sounded maybe, because of | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
their elected responsibility as a Police and Crime Commissioner is to | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
maximise the amount of funding available to them. It needs to | :04:03. | :04:11. | |
recognise the diversity of policing that we have in the UK and that is | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
free difficult when you are trying to reach a formula at a national | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
level. I'll report references the need for additional funding in areas | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
where policing of minority communities is a prevalent issue, | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Kingston, my constituency, we have the largest Korean community in | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
Europe, an excellent Korean liaison officer provided by the police, | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
someone who performs a vital function in ensuring a link between | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
the police and the Korean community. There are many other issues in | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
London as the Member for Harrow West made clear, that provide a positive | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
case for ensuring the capital ground in London is protected and the | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
special position of the Metropolitan Police and its forces is respected. | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
The issue of diverse communities raised by the Member for Leicester | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
East, the issue of policing pubs and bars, raised by the Member for | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
Dorset South, that is plainly volume policing, you need more police | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
officers out at kicking out time, we have more of them in London than | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
anywhere else in the country, so too is the threat of terrorism, a threat | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
which is most significant in London and I am pleased that the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
Metropolitan Police has responded to that in light of the Paris | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
atrocities by a significant increase in the number of armed response | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
vehicles and armed officers keeping us safe. So too are the number and | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
various types of crime tackled centrally on behalf of other police | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
forces and they give the example of online fraud, something we have seen | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
a massive explosion in in the last for 5 years and whilst much more | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
needs to be done for funding needs to be done to deal with this | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
comprehensively, it's tackled in large part by the Metropolitan | :06:09. | :06:16. | |
Police impressive Operation Fall Can, crime perpetrated across the | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
country that is largely dealt with by the police. -- operation Falcon. | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
There is a need to protect the special status of London in any new | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
funding formula. Where I depart from the comment made by the Member for | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
Harrow West, when he paints a rather less than rosy picture of the status | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
of policing in London, whilst yes, there has been a reduction in | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
officer numbers, the fact that a less rigid approach to neighbourhood | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
policing, which works well in my borough of Kingston and elsewhere | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
across London, crime has dropped dramatically over the last 5 years | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
and we have the police to be doubtful for that, even if they have | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
fewer in overall numbers, they have a significantly large proportion on | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
the front line who do a fantastic job resulting in a massive reduction | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
in crime. I will give way. I am grateful to the honourable member | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
forgiving way. Can I encourage him to oppose the merger of borough | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
command units as well? If they succeed with Harrow, Brent and | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
Barnett, I would have thought, Kingston, Sutton, a merger might be | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
next, does he agree with me that this is a step too far and that the | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
police minister might usefully intervene with the Metropolitan | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Police Commissioner to this effect? I thank the honourable member for | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
his intervention, I know locally there will be mixed feelings about | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
this proposed in south-west London but what I know is because of the | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
reforms that this government has brought another previous government | :07:55. | :07:56. | |
brought in, these matters are entirely within the hands of the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
local police body which in the case of London is not packed, rather than | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
the Policing Minister, it's an operational matter for the | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
Metropolitan Commissioner, I haven't seen the proposals yet but I want to | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
be reassured there is no less democratic accountability and no | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
less focus on local policing of that was something going to happen in | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
Kingston but I wait to see the proposals. I'm sure London MPs will | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
have something to say if and when they are published by The Met | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
police. The report that the committee has produced records and | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
unhappy period for the Home Office, 1 for which the Minister came to | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
this hasn't apologised unreservedly and he recognised doing so in the | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
report and I'm sure the Minister is committed to putting right. The | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
government is to be commended attempting to create a fairer | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
funding formula, that is something that is recognised the report, | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
something that previous governments had not tried to do. The terms of | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
that funding formula yet to be decided and it's no easy task, I | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
certainly do not envy the Minister in his task and at such a tricky | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
task that both the Shadow Home Secretary and shadow Policing | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
Minister cannot be here for this important debate, no doubt they are | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
scratching their heads and working out what the alternative funding | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
formula would be but I welcome this report from the Home Affairs | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Committee which I was pleased to have participated in, I'm sure the | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
Minister will give it the sole consideration in deciding the | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
eventual outcome and I am sure why is there will be someone is and | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
losers the public will be able to see that the funding formula the | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
Minister arrives at as 1 which is fair to all forces and hopefully | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
protects London with a special and vital function of the Metropolitan | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
and City of London Police perform to keep us safe. Thank you. I am | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
extremely grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker for the opportunity to speak | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
on this important debate and it isn't lost on me that it's quite a | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
self select group of members of Parliament who turned out today, all | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
of which will probably try and follow a similar formula saying the | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
formula itself does not respond well to the challenges of their own | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
communities. The humility of the nature of the speeches should not | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
necessarily detract from the veracity of their argument. For | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
clearly, across this has, many of us have real, deep concerns about our | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
own police forces and how they are treated under the current regime, | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
there are winners and losers and there I said, there are more losers | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
than usual. I will be no different to anyone else. For me, the acid | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
test of whether a fairer funding formula is truly fair is in the | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
realm of Bedfordshire. Madam Deputy Speaker we have lost 171 officers | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
since 2010 and the number of police and community support officers has | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
halved from 108 down to 53 in that period. In my own community in | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
Luton, we face all sorts of challenges, the practical effect of | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
that is that neighbourhood policing... In 2012, we had PCs | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
working alongside PCSOs, proper neighbourhood policing, true of many | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
parts of the county. The old police authority, looking at the scale of | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
cuts coming through, proposed to remove them and also to cut PCSOs | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
from the Police and Crime Commissioner was elected in 2012, he | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
put a halt to the process and protected numbers. But with | :11:38. | :11:38. | |
?20,000,000 worth of The impact in Luton is no different | :11:39. | :11:57. | |
to the rest of the county. We have had no choice but to strip | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
everything back to the barest minimum because the alternative is | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
worse. By current projections we need to find ?11 million worth of | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
savings and this may mean reducing the establishment by 44 in the next | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
three years. The chief constable has estimated Bedfordshire needs another | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
300 officers to even reach the average number of police forces in | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
the country. Why? Because we are in a county with the fourth highest gun | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
crime, the fifth highest serious acquisitive crime and the seventh | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
highest knife crime in the country, but we get by on just 169 officers | :12:43. | :12:51. | |
per 100,000 of population. The average is 232 across all forces, | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
rural and urban, and the Metropolitan police has some 388 | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
officers per 100,000. In simple terms, because it is easy to get | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
lost in the numbers, the residence Inn Luton I represent are treated as | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
though they were 20 minutes down the train line in North London could | :13:14. | :13:26. | |
expect an additional 482 officers. That is the gap. Would he like to | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
echo the fact that this demand for policing in Luton is not just | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
restricted to the people of Luton, it is felt by the rest of the people | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
in Bedfordshire, including in my town in Bedford. Bedfordshire is not | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
large enough for the rest of the county to chip in for these | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
additional requirements in Luton. Would he emphasised in his speech to | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
the Minister that this is not a partisan view about the funding for | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
Bedfordshire police, this is a cross-party group about the specific | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
needs of Bedfordshire police in the future. I am grateful for taking the | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
intervention because he makes an excellent point, a point he has made | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
alongside me and the four other MPs in Bedfordshire, both conservative | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
and Labour, to the policing minister. He has given us an | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
audience in the past and I hope he will do so in the future. We are | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
essentially an urban force, but we are funded as a rule or one because | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
of the nature of Luton in particular, but also in Bedford and | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
some smaller areas in the county. There is a huge disparity between | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
the levels of crime and it is a point I will continue to make. This | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
is not a dry argument about formulas. Last week, I sat with a | :14:48. | :14:57. | |
constituent, Mrs Patel. She is a shop owner and before Christmas she | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
was attacked and dragged to the back of her shop and cut by a man | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
wielding a knife. How vicious attack has robbed her of her work, her | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
sense of confidence, and has left deep scars, not just mentally but | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
physically as well. There is only one thing that is more horrendous | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
than the attack on Mrs Patel in her shop. It is the fact a few short | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
years ago in the same shop and in the same way her husband was | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
violently attacked and was stabbed to death. She wants to know why the | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
officers that used to patrol the area in which her shop is and where | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
she lives are not patrolling any more. Her son wants to know what it | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
took so long during this violent attack for a card to respond and why | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
Mrs Patel while being subject to such a terrifying attack with a | :16:00. | :16:07. | |
knife against her throat by a man who in her mind was attempting to | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
send her to the same place her husband had been, why this man was | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
not immediately apprehended in the midst of all this. This is not a | :16:16. | :16:22. | |
debate about a formula, it is about the safety of my constituents and | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
their freedom and to live their lives without fear of threat. Madame | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
Deputy Speaker, I believe the argument I advance, that | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
Bedfordshire fair funding is the acid test for the new peace funding | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
formula, is backed up by the context. As the honourable gentleman | :16:40. | :16:47. | |
's, Bedfordshire is an urban force funded in a rural way. Luton and | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
Bedford face fastly different challenges to the rest of this rural | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
county. It is to the credit of the Labour police and crime commission | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
that despite the obvious electoral benefit for moving significant | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
resources into urban areas that he has still been able to move forward | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
with plans that still have a significant rural presence given the | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
challenges. As a community we face all sorts of challenges. We face | :17:16. | :17:25. | |
extremism daily, the far right, and associated groups, regularly target | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
our town. Just one protest last year a group of around 200 drunken men | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
led to a policing bill of ?320,000 that had to be picked up locally. As | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
well as the ongoing challenge of infiltration by extremists into the | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
community. We have to defend major transport infrastructure with Luton | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
airport in my constituency carried upwards of 10 million passengers a | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
year. The East Midlands and the West Coast Main line passes through the | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
constituency and the two principal routes between London and the North | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
as well. Despite this, Bedfordshire has to get by on similar police | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
funding and strength as Dorset, Sussex, and Hertfordshire. There is | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
only one thing that could undermine my argument, so let me pre-empt it. | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
If since 2010 there had not been significant changes, inefficiencies, | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
innovations in the way in which Bedfordshire is operating, if we | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
bury our heads in the sand and said the problem is purely government | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
cutting back spending, but in this case it is not true. The force has | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
made ?25 million worth of savings and expects to make another 11 | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
million in the coming years. Under the leadership of the police and | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
crime Commissioner, the tri- force Alliance should produce around ?10 | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
million worth of savings for Bedfordshire alone. The police | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
innovation fund supports bluelight collaboration with fire and | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
ambulance. There is an increased use of special constables and new | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
technology is being rolled out to save cost and police time including | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
smartphones, automatic telematics and even drones. At the same time we | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
have seen an increased use of transparency through the use of body | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
worn cameras which is vital for maintaining the involvement of the | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
community and the sense in which they are protected by the police. I | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
am grateful to my honourable friend. He has been talking about cost | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
savings between Betvictor, Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire, | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
but does he agree that that is about cost sharing, but there is still the | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
revenue that accrues to Hertfordshire and Cambridgeshire | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
which is in excess of the financial resources that come into | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
Bedfordshire. It is a pity we are not able to encourage those counties | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
to draw together with us. Would he like to hear the minister's thoughts | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
on whether there would be Home Office proposals to push forward to | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
allow greater sharing of the revenue as well as the cost sharing? | :20:18. | :20:24. | |
Absolutely and my own opinion is I think there is far greater space for | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
collaboration, but equally the challenge for a force like | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
Bedfordshire, I have not painted a particularly rosy picture, and there | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
does need to be government influence over these kind of measures. It | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
cannot just be left to local level. For Cambridgeshire and | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
Hertfordshire, in which there have been two good police and crime | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
Commissioner 's who have been keen to work with Bedfordshire, they are | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
ultimately accountable to their own residents for making sure they get | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
the best possible deal. While I want to signal not just the innovation | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
that has gone on in Bedfordshire, but also my own willingness to | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
explore innovation on a statesman-like basis rather than | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
drawing back into opposition politics, I think it is important we | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
get the funding in Bedfordshire right through this process and we | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
can look at further collaboration down the line. The police and crime | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
Commissioner here is the third cheapest in the country and said | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
more than ?200,000 in his first year in office over the old police | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
authority. This is not the case of a police and crime Commissioner trying | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
to make a particular case to government. This is an issue that | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
spanned both governments, labour and Conservative, so we welcome the | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
willingness of the Minister to engage to get the funding formula | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
right. In other words, we are doing all the things you asked us to. We | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
are doing the things that are right by our residents, everything that | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
you would expect Bedfordshire is being done. The acid test of this | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
police formula is whether Bedfordshire and like it that I | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
significantly disadvantaged are properly funded alongside other | :22:16. | :22:23. | |
police forces. It is no time for the formula and the Minister and the | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
government to do right by the last two. Madame Deputy Speaker, I want | :22:27. | :22:35. | |
to begin by being clear about what her Majesty's Inspector of | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
Constabulary for West Midlands police, Wendy Williams, said about | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
the force in her most recent report. She believes it is exceptionally | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
well prepared to face future financial challenges. It has robust | :22:55. | :23:01. | |
management of its current demand, its finances, and its plans for | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
change. The force has embarked on an impressive five-year change | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
programme to transform how it intends to deliver policing and in | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
last year's valuing the peace programme which considered how | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
forces met the challenge of the first spending review, West Midlands | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
police was judged to be outstanding. I want to thank Labour police and | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
crime Commissioner David Jamieson, our former Chief Constable Chris | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
Simmons and our new chief Constable Dave Thomson, for doing such a good | :23:38. | :23:47. | |
job on our behalf. The government has suggested that West Midlands | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
Labour MPs are wrong to complain that our police are being | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
short-changed. The Minister thinks West Midlands please ask where a | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
length away money and sitting on huge reserves. Let's look at the | :24:01. | :24:07. | |
reserves of the largest force in England and Wales outside the Met. | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Not only does it serve a population of nearly 3 million people and an | :24:13. | :24:20. | |
area of some 340 square miles, but as HMI see note, the area served by | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
the West Midlands force faces the most significant challenge of | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
terrorism and extremism outside London, a point which I think the | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
honourable gentleman for Kingston was alluding to. The force is in | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
fact a national lead in the delivery of counterterrorism. It complies | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
with the requirement to hold a general reserve which in its case is | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
about ?12 million, which I understand can be compared with | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
figures of around 26 and 23 million for the Met and West Yorkshire | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
police. Its remaining reserves about 10 million set aside to address | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
redundancy and equal pay in A force is still suffering the fallout from | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
the a 19 forced retirements. A further 12 million is set aside for | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
the self-funded insurance reserve. I expect the Minister is familiar with | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
the problems of insurance for police vehicles and how most forces hold a | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
reserve to cover this. About 3 million is set aside for uniform and | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
protective equipment reserves, not high for the second largest force in | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
the country. About 2.1 million for the major incident reserve and about | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
18 million for the capital reserve. The Minister will be aware that his | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
officials advised that forces should prepare for a reduction in capital | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
grant in this year's settlement. I understand the West Midlands B is | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
now about 2.9 million, a cut of about 2 million on previous years. | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
When I look at it, I like Her Majesty 's Inspectorate and Chris | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
saddlery sea a force with robust management of demand and finances | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
and when it is proved outstanding in facing up to the challenges that | :26:25. | :26:31. | |
austerity has imposed on it. Despite misleading for anyone to suggest | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
that they are sitting on massive reserves and I invite the Minister | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
to look again at these figures before anyone in the Government is | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
tempted to repeat such a charge. On the question of the formula, I | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
wonder if I can invite the Minister to clear up the situation with | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
regards to claims from the Conservative Police and Crime | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
Commissioner for Northamptonshire that he has been led to expect a | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
transfer of funding from urban forces like the West Midlands to | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
rural forces like his. Last week the Home Secretary didn't feel able to | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
tell my honourable friend from Birmingham Northfield that he wasn't | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
planning such a transfer of funds. Would the minister like to take this | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
opportunity to come clean about his intentions? Of course his quoting | :27:23. | :27:31. | |
the figures that Ajax helps apply to him so I am not going to contradict | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
the figures during my summing up. There is no funding for me the | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
change on the books, so nobody can say that they will be better or | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
worse off until we come forward with the formula. It is certainly true | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
that the minister did give me a gobs of some of the figures and I am very | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
grateful to him for that. Let me -- glimpse of some of the figures. What | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
he Police and Crime Commissioner said was that he had been tipped off | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
that there had been a transfer of funds from urban to rural forces, | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
that is the point I was making. What my constituents want to know, Mr | :28:09. | :28:16. | |
Deputy Speaker, is why is it needed, more money for Surrey in | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
Northamptonshire and then we need to police a place like the UK West | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
Midlands? Why do we need to have less where we get more? Help give | :28:28. | :28:42. | |
way. I am grateful. He might pass these same question of the local | :28:43. | :28:44. | |
government formula when sorry as more areas like Durham as his area. | :28:45. | :28:52. | |
Surrey. The discussion is that it would be used to divert money away | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
from Labour areas to Conservative areas. If we look at past form, that | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
certainly seems to be the implication. I was very interested | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
to hear the honourable gentleman for South Dorset earlier employ the | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
Minister to think again about fairer funding on the basis that with a | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
fairer funding arrangement, the force in Dorset would get an extra | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
?1.8 million a year. Can I just remind the Minister that with the | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
same fairer funding formula, the West Midlands would get an extra ?40 | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
million per year. So when it comes to the transfer of resources, I hope | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
you will bear that in mind. Because the reality is far from getting | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
extra funding, over the past five years our force has had to content | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
with ?180 million worth of cuts. The highest in the country. The | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
workforce has been reduced by 3000. The incoming Chief Constable has | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
been clear that he will need to reorganise to cope with the gaps, | :30:02. | :30:08. | |
gaps, Mr Deputy Speaker, his words, with the gaps they now have to | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
carry. I would like to know how he is meant to plug these gaps will | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
stop -- plug these gaps. The mistakes in the formula mean that | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
they now planning we have heard earlier against a one-year rather | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
than four-year profile. That will make it much more difficult for | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
them, so I would like to know how the Minister thinks the Chief | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
Constable of the West Midlands is going to plug these gaps. I want to | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
be clear Mr Deputy Speaker, I don't want to deride the Home Secretary | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
for saying that volunteers with specialist skills in IT or | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
accountancy might be useful in helping to tackle cybercrime, but I | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
am curious to know why it is necessary to create a new position | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
of police support volunteers rather than simply recruit more special | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
constables with particular skills and expertise. Is this part of a | :31:09. | :31:19. | |
wider volunteer plan? A very simple answer. A special Constable is an | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
unpaid warranted officer, the same as a full-time officer. Many people | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
do not want to carry the warrant but do want to help their local police | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
force. That is why there is a separate criteria and they are not | :31:34. | :31:36. | |
all specials because they all don't have to be warranted. I am grateful | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
for the Minister for that and perhaps he will show us the | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
consultation that took place to show this support with this new police | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
support volunteer role. I welcome having a look at that so I am | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
grateful to him for that. I want to ask him, going back to funding, if | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
he really considers that a Triumph for is honourable friend 's from | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
Solihull and Dudley South to claim credit for a 4.6% rise in the police | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
preserve paid by the taxpayers of the West Midlands to make up for the | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
money being given to police is like Surrey and Northamptonshire, is that | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
how we are going to be forced to plug the gap, by paying more pounds | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
for a less police in our area? Mr Deputy Speaker, I would also | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
repeatedly advised that plan has fallen and therefore by implication | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
that the Government's cuts are justified. I assume the Minister | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
doesn't dispute the claims of the Office of National Statistics that | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
crime rose by 6% nationally for the year ending September 2015, that | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
violence against the person rose by 13%. I don't dispute that some types | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
of crime have fallen, but then I am not interested in trying to | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
manipulate the figures to mislead anyone. Isn't it important that the | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
Government gives a full picture and comes clean on what the figures | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
actually mean? I will give way. Thank you. Will the honourable | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
member concede that the report in fact said that there had been an | :33:23. | :33:25. | |
increase in the way that crime is recorded and that the reporting and | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
recording of crime has improved and that actually is an explanation for | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
some of the races. I concede that what the report says about some of | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
sexual offences being reported differently and that accounted for | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
that but it did also quickly point out that violence against the person | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
had risen by 13% and I hope the honourable gentleman would accept | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
that. As I say, what I think we need is clarity on these figures rather | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
than use them to try and paint a particular picture may be | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
misleading. There is one more point I would like to make, Mr Deputy | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
Speaker, as I indicated earlier, the West Midlands force faces the most | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
significant challenge of terrorism and extremism outside London. Of | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
course, recently we have suffered a spate of gun crime in parts of | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
Birmingham. The Chief Constable is set to increase the number of armed | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
officers which I understand is in line with Home Office advice. | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
Currently West Midlands has about 260 armed officers, in line with | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
Home Office thinking means a further 130 officers. Where will the funding | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
for these additional armed police officers come from? And where will | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
the personnel come from? Will the force be expected to recruit | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
additional officers or does this mean that those already engaged in | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
neighbourhood policing or response policing will be required to | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
transfer to these new duties further depleting those available for | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
existing police tasks? It is not bluff and bluster we need today, it | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
is honest answers to legitimate questions and queries from people | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
like myself who are genuinely worried that the formula, funding | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
and rhetoric doesn't match the heroic efforts of West Midlands | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
Police to meet the demands of the community they seek to serve. We | :35:47. | :35:55. | |
know that the funding formula for police forces in England and Wales | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
has been consulted upon by UK Government as it seeks to simplify | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
funding arrangements for this service. We also know that any | :36:03. | :36:05. | |
changes in the funding arrangements have been delayed until 2016-17. | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
This was very eloquently set out for us by the member for Leicester East. | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
Because of Barnet consequential switcher so important for funding | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
services across the UK, I would like to say a few words today about | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
policing in Scotland. As many in this House will be aware, the SNP | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
Scottish Government has carried out a reorganisation of policing in | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
Scotland with its area forces merged into a new Terry force in 2013. | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
Michael eight. Now the Scottish Government funds Scottish policing | :36:41. | :36:42. | |
directly through the Scottish police authority and it's worth pointing | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
out that this cross-party support although that support was | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
subsequently withdrawn by the Lib Dems. Perhaps that is the nature of | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
being a Lib Dem. However, if they may be permitted to point out, in | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
Scotland, despite this major reform being implanted by the Scottish | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
Government and delivering significant savings, the Scottish | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
Government has continued to protect its commitment to 1000 additional | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
police officers all in the teeth of harsh Westminster cuts. There is no | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
doubt in Scotland we are having to make some very hard decisions about | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
the police budget, but the SNP Scottish Government, the recent | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
budget, the police revenue budget has been protected in real terms in | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
every year of the next parliament, a boost of 100 million between 2016 | :37:35. | :37:42. | |
and 2021. However, it has to be said, some of the hard decisions the | :37:43. | :37:44. | |
Scottish Government is having to make is a direct consequence of the | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
UK Government refusing to give police Scotland the same VAT status | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
as every other police authority in the UK. The same applies to the Fire | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
and Rescue Service in Scotland and I see somebody chuntering from his | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
position and a few wish to intervene I would be delighted to hear what | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
you have a say. I will give way. The fact is the Scottish Government | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
agreed to that proposal. What I would like to point out today for | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
the avoidance of any doubt, although the Scottish Government... Although | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
the Scottish Government... Listen. It doesn't make it right. Let me | :38:27. | :38:35. | |
finish my point before you start chuntering! The reason is Scottish | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
Government agreed to this is because it had no choice. It is working | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
within the constraints imposed upon it by Westminster. I should say, Mr | :38:46. | :38:55. | |
Speaker, like so many other deals in Scotland, it is imposed by a UK | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Government that is detached from Scotland and neither understands nor | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
cares about Scotland's public services! So, Mr Speaker, Mr Deputy | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Speaker, I shall leave the matter there. If you don't like giving | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
fairer funding formulas to Scotland, you had your chance last September | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
and you kicked and screamed to hold onto us. All we ask for in the light | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
of that decision last September is fairness, we are of course, a valued | :39:27. | :39:36. | |
and equal partner. Let us be so. I have dealt with the point | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
comprehensively. I have not ignored it. Order. If the honourable lady | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
twitchers give way she will give way. If you doesn't want to give | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
way, you all have to respect it. Patricia Gibson. I would simply add | :39:50. | :39:57. | |
that holding an axe over someone's head and because they don't... Point | :39:58. | :40:05. | |
of order. We are used to the breathtaking arrogance of the SNP in | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
this place but I think it is completely wrong if an honourable | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
gentleman or need it raises a point which is clearly wrong, does not | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
allow other members to question her. As you well know, I think it is a | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
user of a deal with it. First of all it is not a point of order. If we | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
were to rely on something that somebody believes not to be correct, | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
we would never ever get through a debate. Your review and the | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
different view from the members will continue within this House. We will | :40:41. | :40:50. | |
not disagree. Just let's see if we can help. I want to progress the | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
debate. I don't want it to deteriorate. Patricia Gibson. I was | :40:54. | :41:01. | |
simply going to add that point that anybody in this chamber would think | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
that a unique VAT charge in Scotland's police and Fire Service, | :41:06. | :41:06. | |
Jenny Willott buddy would think... The chair will not rule on the | :41:07. | :41:19. | |
debate, I am not going to make a decision on who is right and who is | :41:20. | :41:28. | |
wrong, Patricia Gibson. The Scottish police authority, uniquely for the | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
United Kingdom, and therefore unfairly, is the only police | :41:32. | :41:40. | |
authority, I do want to progress beyond this point, uniquely and | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
therefore unfairly, the only police authority in the United Kingdom that | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
cannot recover VAT and is therefore liable for a cost, an annual cost of | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
?25 million. Equivalent to almost the entire forecast trading gap. | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
This is an important point, the Treasury based this decision on that | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
services would be funded by central government, but the Treasury | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
introduced a new section into the VAT act to ensure central government | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
funded schools in England could recover VAT. So why not the same | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
provision for the Scottish forces, Scottish Fire And Rescue Services | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
and I would say to the honourable gentleman, I am asking for it now. | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
Why do I mention all of this Mr Deputy Speaker? Apart from it being | :42:37. | :42:46. | |
about fairness, I mention it... Mr Jones, it would be easier if I can | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
hear what is being said, I was hoping you would come on next | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
because I want to hear from you but the outcome of Patricia Gibson. I | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
mention this because at the end of debate, about managing budgets and | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
Scotland is being short-changed by this unique VAT charge levied on | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
police and Fire Services, taking significant funds away from these | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
hard-pressed and important budgets. It is simply not fair and the people | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
of Scotland take a dim view, as they should. Nevertheless, despite these | :43:19. | :43:27. | |
budget problems imposed by Wes Burns to, a real term deduction of ?1.5 | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
billion in the funding for day-to-day public services over the | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
next four years as a result of a comments or spending review, despite | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
all of that, crime in Scotland is at its lowest level for 41 years. A | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
violent crime down by 55% since 2006-7. Mr Deputy Speaker, I believe | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
it was Benjamin Franklin who said that the only certainty in life was | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
death and taxation. He isn't certainly right about the first but | :44:01. | :44:08. | |
and a Westminster governments, he may have been off the mark on the | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
second. However, there is another certainty in life which he | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
overlooked and it is this, the one thing you may be sure that will not | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
be debated during a Westminster debate is estimates. This issue of | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
debating estimates may not exercise the mind of the general public but I | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
believe that is because it is not well-known outside of this place how | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
little scrutiny there is of the spending plan of respective | :44:38. | :44:44. | |
departments. It is negligible and under successive governments that it | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
should be so. If the public knew just how inscrutable the process | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
was, I am sure they would have something to say about it. And of | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
course, Mr Deputy Speaker, the compliance of the process is very | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
technical and that is how spending is approved by parliament. We must | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
remember in the course of this debate, that during the EU debate, | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
it was suggested there would be a review of this process while seeming | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
adamant that estimates already allows for the Barnett | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
consequentialist. The procedural committee is reviewing the estimates | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
process and learn that experts, far more learn it and distinguished than | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
I, if you can believe that, they have argued from all sides of the | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
political spectrum that while discussing evil, the estimates | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
process is simply not fit for purpose. Mr Deputy Speaker, if I | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
could crave your indulgence for a little longer and point out that the | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
way this house deals with the supply and estimates procedure is simply | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
not sustainable. We need to have proper debate around this siege to | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
achieve clarity on Barnett consequentialist. The scrutiny is | :46:08. | :46:19. | |
not robust enough and this Parliament has struggled to | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
scrutinise these issues. The process is such that these procedures simply | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
do not give MPs the full opportunities to scrutinise the | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
consequential is a England only or England and Wales, and that is | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
required in a mature and healthy democracy. It should be a | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
consequence that the supply process be reformed in the interest of this | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
matter being a process of development. That is a direct quote | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
from the leader of this house, promised and envisaged on the 22nd | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
of October 2015. Mr Speaker himself said he could not conceive of a bill | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
without such consequential is and that Scottish members... You did ask | :47:08. | :47:14. | |
me to crave some indulgence, which I have, and I have been very good but | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
we do know that unfortunately, and you answered your own question, and | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
that was the procedure committee is the right body to take this up, | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
unfortunate, today's debate is not. I have allowed some indulgence but | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
what we need to do is move back to the core of the debate. I take on | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
board what you are saying, having craved your indulgence and maximised | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
the level of your patients that you have shown me, I was just about to | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
return to the police funding formula. I would like to point out | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
that any discussion of police budgets in England must, in all | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
fairness and justice, consider any effects and consequences for | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
Scotland. Not least the VAT issue which is running in justice in | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
Scotland, police in Scotland do an excellent job. But they must have a | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
level playing field and I ask all of the members here today, representing | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
English and Welsh constituencies, as you consider police budgets, | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
remember the inconvenient truth that the police in Scotland have a VAT | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
ball and chain around the ankle which picks money out of the pocket | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
of the police budget to the tune of ?25 million every year, which no | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
other police authority in the United Kingdom has to contend with. Saying | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
that Scotland accented this is simply not good enough. Any | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
reasonable minded person would demand that it would stop and it | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
should stop now. Scotland is supposed to be a valued and equal | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
partner in this union but there is a thing equal about these VAT burden, | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker. Kevan Jones. Can I say, during the speech of the | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
member, you said you were craving for indulgence, that will is not | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
what I was praying for. What we have just seen is what we usually get | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
from the SNP. That something they agree to, they then turn on it in a | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
victim mentality, as I have said on numerous occasions, it has brought a | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
new art form in this house by the Scottish Nationalist party. It ends | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
up being an idea that it is somehow everybody else's fault. She agreed | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
to it, as did her government, I do not think she can somehow try and | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
delude the electors in Scotland that somehow it is English members and | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
the government of Westminster's fault for something that she and her | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
own government agreed to. Can I move on to the purpose of this debate? | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
Clearly the honourable member, apart from her sense of grievance that we | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
have heard on many occasions in recent weeks and months, was not | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
covered anything that was relevant to today's debate. Can I begin by | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
congratulating the home affairs committee for their report on reform | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
of the funding formula. And page are viewed to the chair for his speech | :50:13. | :50:21. | |
in opening this debate. It has been said in numerous contributions in | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
this debate that it is something that needs to be looked at for | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
years. It needs to be looked at in a logical way, I do not disagree with | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
that, we need to look at it in a detailed way into how we fund the | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
police. It is an important issue for our constituents. But I don't think | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
the way the government went about this had anything to do with a real | :50:44. | :50:50. | |
serious hard look and a fair funding formula to put forward. It is quite | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
clear if you read the select committee report, one of the | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
criticisms, not only by chief constables but many PCs, but how it | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
was rushed and the consultation started on the 21st of July 2015 and | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
closed on the 15th of September. A period of eight weeks for | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
consultation. The police minister then wrote to the cc and chief | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
constables on the eighth, three weeks after consultation closed, | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
setting out the force levels and inviting further comment. Having | :51:31. | :51:38. | |
heard evidence on the permanent Secretary, I answered the question, | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
why was it such a short period, they said they could have gone for a | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
longer period or try to have the funding formula arranged before the | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
spending review and they made that decision, whether that was the right | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
decision is a matter for debate but a decision made to have the formula | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
in place before the spending review. I totally agree with the honourable | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
gentleman because that is what was going on. We were going to get this | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
wrapped up into the spending review. I think what we are in store for was | :52:06. | :52:13. | |
exactly what has happened in local government funding. Where we didn't | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
have a fair funding formula at all. What we had was a skewed formula for | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
funding that we had from the government that has moved resources | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
in the most deprived communities in the country to low and behold, the | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
more wealthy parts represented by the party opposite. If you look at | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
local government funding, just by chance, 85% of the gains in that | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
process happened to be in Conservative seats. I suspect that | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
is what was going on with this as well. They have not reckoned with | :52:49. | :52:59. | |
the PCC for Devon and Cornwall who clearly questioned the process. We | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
have to put this against the other thing is that this government and | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
its previous incarnation in the coalition has done to policing in | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
this country, I will give way. I am grateful to him for giving way, I am | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
sure he recognises that the police Minister is a pretty straightforward | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
guy. Given that we have ended up in this situation and we have not been | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
able to resolve this in four years for police forces can plan a | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
long-term budget, wouldn't the fair thing to do now be to remove any | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
doubt and suspicion, to subject the formula to independent scrutiny so | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
we can all be absolutely certain it is fair? I will come back to that in | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
a minute, the real issue is this, what we are seeing now in local | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
government, is that we have a new formula, the resources would not | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
have been devolved to the areas that needed them but what would have been | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
devolved to the local areas would be the blame for where those cuts have | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
to be. It is a formula the government has used for many years | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
now. The member for South Dorset is not hear them the moment bent, in my | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
local authority, we had five times the amount of cuts that South Dorset | :54:24. | :54:31. | |
had in the past five years. I am fearful that this formula will do | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
the same to local government and to the police. My honourable friend | :54:36. | :54:43. | |
from Bootle makes a good point, that is what will be designed by this. | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
They were found out I think by the PCC for Devon and Cornwall. I accept | :54:50. | :54:57. | |
what he said about the policing minister but he is a small cog in | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
this huge machine. What this machine is about is about devolving blame to | :55:01. | :55:10. | |
local authorities, you don't devolve resources and the new point the | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
finger at local decision-makers when these cuts have to be made. The | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
Chancellor of the is the real villain of the peace in this, he can | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
stand back and say it is not him. If we look at what has happened since | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
2010, two 2p has been taken out of the police budgets of this country, | :55:30. | :55:38. | |
22% of the funding. I don't accept that my constituents don't | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
understand how police funding is arrived at. It is unique in that two | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
thirds of it comes from central government. Many people, like the | :55:46. | :55:53. | |
local authority rates, they think that pays for local services but we | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
know that is not the case. We have an uneven system in this country | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
whereby we have authorities that raise more in local precept than | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
others, areas like mine are unable to raise large amounts due to the | :56:09. | :56:20. | |
55% in Durham, art properties. It raises nothing like it would in | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
Surrey or any other parts of the country. | :56:27. | :56:35. | |
This was highlighted by the Chancellor in his Autumn Statement. | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
The ability to put forward but arguing that those that are lower in | :56:40. | :56:48. | |
it should be bound by the ?5 increase. All that does is help | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
wealthier areas. For example in Durham, have we were allowed to do | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
that, that doesn't raise anything compared with for example one of the | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
more well off forces such as Essex and Herefordshire. That needs to be | :57:03. | :57:12. | |
looked at. Would he agree with Matt that there is another issue that | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
relates to vulnerable areas, the level of top slicing of grants? This | :57:18. | :57:25. | |
year compared to next year, a 69% rise in the top slice of these | :57:26. | :57:30. | |
grants next year. In Greater Manchester that the reduction of | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
16.2 million. Would he agree with me that we need some assurances that | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
top slicing for things like the national budgets like the | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
transformation fund should not come from local police grants? I would | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
agree but that is another sleight of hand the Chancellor users. Local | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
government, the new homes bonus, trumpeted as a great ability for | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
local authorities to raise money but what do they do but top slice it for | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
exactly the way in which is being said. In terms of the precept, in | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
the case of Durham, what will happen is that the ability to raise extra | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
is limited. That in any future formula needs to be taken into | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
account. I know the secretary, the Chancellor in his Autumn Statement, | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
he said that policing was going to be protected, that somehow it was | :58:26. | :58:35. | |
going to be a situation whereby money was now going to fall from the | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
heavens. It is not going to because of the top slicing which will take | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
place and it is quite clear if you look at what people have said a bun | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
down the country, there will still be pressure this year in terms of | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
the police budget. -- up and down the country. Any type of formula | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
needs to look at local tax yield, the ability to raise any additional | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
expenditure, which in places like Durham... What we have also seen | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
because of the cuts, disproportional cuts might honourable friend from | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
Bootle has raised, in Durham, since 2010, we have lost 350 officers and | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
another 25 PC SOs. Before anyone says this is an inefficient police | :59:22. | :59:29. | |
force, can I say it is the way police force in this country which | :59:30. | :59:37. | |
under HMR I has... As the honourable friend Fullerton highlighted in his | :59:38. | :59:46. | |
speech, great steps have been taken by local authorities, health | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
services and police forces to drive efficiency. I am not opposed to that | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
and I think that is to be welcomed but they do get to a point where you | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
cannot drive out more efficiency because at the end of the day, what | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
local people want is they want police on the streets, who are | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
responsive and localised policing. That will not be done and it does | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
get to a point in this process where you cannot deliver the service which | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
the local people desire. We have seen it in local government. A | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
situation now where many local authorities are being pared back the | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
basically statutory services. Are we going to see a similar thing in | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
policing? If that is the Government's ultimate aim in their | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
drive to the small state Conservative Britain that they | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
actually want, they need to be honest about that rather than hide | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
behind this type of funding formula. In terms of the actual process, I | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
think now that the Home Office has lost the police community, local | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
politicians and also police and crank ten hours of lost all faith | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
that the Home Office can actually do this review in a proper and fairway | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
and I do support what is being suggested by the Select Committee in | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
terms of taking us out of the hands of the Home Office because otherwise | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
it will lead to a suspicion that what we have got in the background | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
which we all know is a Chancellor wanting to use this as a way of | :01:20. | :01:27. | |
driving out not efficiency but cash from the police service. It's | :01:28. | :01:35. | |
possibly true, if it hadn't been for the tragic events in Paris, we would | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
have been facing deeper cuts within the police force. With respect from | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
it or honourable member from Islington North said, it wasn't down | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
to him were the Labour Party that the U-turn took place, it was | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
because of a fear from the Government that after the tragic | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
events in Paris, they would quite rightly be an outcry if you're going | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
to put through some of the cuts which they were going to put | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
through. The issue around what is included in the formula, there is a | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
dry for simplicity, I am actually in favour, always have been, in public | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
policy of keeping things as simple as possible. But if by make things | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
simpler, it is less accurate and less transparent, I would be against | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
that. Clearly the interaction between other budgets, for example, | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
I mentioned earlier on the issue around mental health, it does need | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
to be looked at, but there is a police element there that is needed. | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
You can't actually then say to mental Health Trust, you will have | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
to pay for part of your local area's policing. I think it is important | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
that the interconnection between... And deprivation has got to be one of | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
those issues. Durham is a rural county but even under these | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
proposals, if it is not real and off, or blue enough in terms of | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
Conservative representation to actually get a great deal of money | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
from this formula... Rural areas such as Durham are quite unique, | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
because I describe parts of my constituency like this, very rural, | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
but they have urban problems. They have problems which would be | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
recognised in any urban area in terms of drug, alcohol, crime, even | :03:28. | :03:35. | |
organised crime and deprivation, which means that the associated | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
crime you get with that is of a high level. We do need a situation that | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
takes into account not only reality but the reality of what is happening | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
on the ground. The argument about alcohol, I think using licensed | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
presses as an indicator, I think it is complete nonsense. -- premises. | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
OK, the public image that we have is that if we listen to many of our | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
national newspapers, the real problem for a crime is people | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
spilling out of wine bars at happy hour. It is not. Speak to police | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
locally. One of the biggest issues is alcohol in the helm. Actually how | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
you reflect that -- the home. How you reflect that is going to be | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
difficult. Reflecting alcohol disturbances in nine area with barbs | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
is not going to have the problem -- Bowers. That needs to be taken into | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
account. I would like to finish by paying tribute to the men and women | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
who have had a tough last six years, not just in terms of the 350 | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
colleagues that are no longer in Durham, but they have actually met | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
the challenge in terms of driving efficiency, interacting with the | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
community and that has been reflected in the HMRC report which | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
gives the force... I would also like to pay tribute to the Chief | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
Constable Mike Barton and the Labour PPC Ron Hob, both worked very | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
closely together in terms of not only driving innovation, efficiency | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
and delivery of service but actually looking at some innovative ways of | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
alternative justice. I think they are making a real impact locally, | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
not very popular on occasions when they were launched but actually | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
having a real impact on the ground. Can I just touched on one final | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
thing? I am in favour of driving up costs and if it is for example, like | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
in Durham, working with Teesside on the joint firearms units, dog | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
handling, that is great. Where I have a problem with is suggestions | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
with the Government driving through on the merging of other bluelight | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
services. There is some clear efficiencies that can be done. Fire | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
Services. I think we need to be careful we don't get a situation | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
whereby again we get cuts being imposed for example on the Fire And | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
Rescue Services because somehow they think that their job can be merged | :06:24. | :06:32. | |
or massaged into the role of police. That I think, if there are sensible | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
things in the back office, I am all for that. If a taxi blur blurs it in | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
terms of the front line delivery of Fire Services and other services. | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
That if it actually. But as a different issue altogether and we | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
need to be very careful. I hope that we do have a proper look at this | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
funding formula. I think it has got to be independent. The Home Office | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
think credibility has been shredded on this. One thing I do not trust | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
whatsoever if this Conservative government and the Chancellor in | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
driving not a fairer funding formula but a funding formula that will | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
actually divert resources away from areas like mine and into the leaf | :07:13. | :07:22. | |
Tory suburbs. Thank you forgive me the opportunity to speak in today's | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
debate. I didn't speak in the recent police debate despite many concerns | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
from the benches, those concerns are still remain. There is much | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
uncertainty and concern in police forces across the country about | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
current and future funding. We were here just a few months ago in | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
November making the case for policing to be protected from the | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
ravages of Tory cuts. Labour members joined with others and people across | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
the country in raising concerns about policing cuts generally. The | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
Government was originally planning to cut police budgets by over 20% | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
but at the last moment the Chancellor in the spending review | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
statement to this House, he said he was protecting police funding and | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
there will be no cuts in the police budget poll. Real terms protection. | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
It seemed the Tories are still intent on cutting police funding. | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
The debate today is about the reform of the police funding formula. | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
Government may have tried to deflect attention by saying there are no | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
cuts to police funding. However the fact remains that the level of | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
police funding that the Government is committed to over the next few | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
years will go down. We know that the Tories had the cancelled the last | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
review of police funding from your last autumn as they had this | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
targeted funding for police forces using the wrong figures. Last week | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
Labour pleaded with the Government to think again before bringing in | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
further cuts to police forces and forcing local people to pay more to | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
make the Tory cuts. The Government are expecting police forces to raise | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
extra money in local tax to make up for Tory cuts. No matter how the | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
Government tried to address these up, a cut is a cut. What we need and | :09:10. | :09:17. | |
what needs to be addressed a fairer funding formula that is fair to less | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
affluent, I need, high crime areas which is not the case at present. I | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
speak as someone who has grown up with a huge amount of respect for | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
the police service and the jobs that they do. I have worked closely with | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
neighbourhood policing teams over many years in my previous role as a | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
county council. I have always appreciated the work they do and the | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
professionalism of police officers who put their lives on the line | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
every day. Unfortunately under this government we have seen the break-up | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
of a neighbourhood policing model, something that the previous Liberal | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
government achieved. Neighbourhood policing by police after their | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
police stations and indignities building up trust within those | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
communities and bringing down crime. The positive steps we saw on the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
Labour are being lost. Under this government's cuts and unless a | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
proper funding formula is addressed, matters will get worse. In the last | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
six months alone a further 1300 police officers have been lost, the | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
equivalent of the whole force in some areas. We know that the Tories | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
have already cut funding for the police service by 25% during the art | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
world. The most recent losses bring the total reduction of police | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
officers to a staggering 80,000 cut since 2010. We also know that police | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
officers are already paying the price for the Government's actions. | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
The reduction of officers numbers has put greater pressure on the | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
remaining officers who have found their workloads soaring and | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
workplace pressures intensifying. 27% of officers working more than 49 | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
hours a week beyond the legal limit. Crime may have fallen in some areas, | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
the police are trying their best to reduce crime. However policing is | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
about much more will stop it is about whether crime is falling or | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
not, but also reassurance to residents in communities. They know | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
that crime is changing rather than falling. When the 6 million cyber | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
and online crimes are included in the official statistics, crime will | :11:28. | :11:28. | |
nearly double. The most serious crimes on the rise | :11:29. | :11:38. | |
and this is the worst time to cut funding. That is what the Chancellor | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
is doing. He said he would protect budgets but we have more years of | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
cuts. Make no mistake, the police service is under pressure and the | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
morale of officers is at a low ebb. Police officers I spoke to feel the | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
government don't understand or appreciate the commitment they have | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
for the job. We should focus on cutting crime not to police. One a | :12:04. | :12:12. | |
few areas where we have seen is PCSOs. Since 2010, South Wales | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
police of increased PCO is by 77 and Gwent 35. This is due to funded | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
support from the Welsh Labour government who supported a total of | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
500 PCSOs despite significant cuts to its budget by the Tories. My own | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
constituency is covered by two forces, south Wales and Gwent. In | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
the next financial year, south Wales to see a cut of three million in | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
real terms and Gwent 1.5 million. The need for support from the police | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
service is significant in many communities represent but with these | :12:52. | :12:59. | |
cuts the support is under threat. As I said, this isn't the time to be | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
making cuts to services like policing. Safety of the communities | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
is too important to put at risk. People in our communities need | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
adequate protection for the police service, lack of a fair funding | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
formula put this at risk and will not provide police with resources | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
they need to do the job. Would he disassociate himself from the shadow | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
home secretary comments that the police could take a funding cut of | :13:31. | :13:39. | |
10%? That wasn't the situation that the Shadow Home Secretary described | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
and he knows that. He is trying to misrepresent what has been said. And | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
I think the party opposite talked about 20% plus cuts at that point so | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
let's get things in perspective. It was also that non-ring fenced asked | :14:02. | :14:08. | |
to find up to 40% cuts and if they had gone through you would have seen | :14:09. | :14:19. | |
more than 10% cuts. I thank him. We are seeing a case of smokes and | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
mirrors. In closing, I would like to urge the government to address | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
concerns and provide the fair funding formula that the police need | :14:30. | :14:38. | |
to do the job we ask them to do. I was in the debate last week and I | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
will repeat something I said, a big thank you to the Merseyside police | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
and staff and offices and I want that to be put on record. The Right | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
Honourable member for Leicester East was very measured and generous in | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
his analysis and exposition of the funding formula and he was generous. | :14:59. | :15:06. | |
I am not the mines to be as generous I think the tensions it created | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
across the police service are still being felt, the fear, worry that we | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
will come back to this again and it will be just as unfair and just as | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
much of a battle. But can I also say, I would like to apologise to | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
the Home Secretary or the Home Affairs Select Committee, I say that | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
because one or the other is trying to sell this house a large pup, last | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
week the Home Secretary led the house to believe the police service | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
was awash with money regardless of the review and in any event she | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
said, it is the quality of officers not the quantity that counts. I | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
remember that. The right honourable lady responded, when the right | :15:57. | :16:02. | |
honourable gentleman calls on governments to provide real terms | :16:03. | :16:05. | |
protection for the police and budget, I can happily tell members | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
we have done just that. I heaved a sigh of relief at that reassurance, | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
she has been cut, has the responsibility for keeping the | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
Queens peace. She will not want to let Her Majesty down. The home | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
affairs committee report takes a different view. The report says, the | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
real terms reductions in central grants to police forces as a whole | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
is varied between 24 and 26% however the range for real terms reductions | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
for individual forces was from 12% for Surrey to 22% for Northumbria | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
and West Midlands. The two forces most reliant on government grants. | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
The Home Secretary has proactively selected and it is a disingenuous | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
approach. The police minister told us that the West Midlands police and | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
crime Commissioner, and this to some extent reinforces the point earlier, | :17:11. | :17:17. | |
the minister said the crime Commissioner had not spent part of | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
the hundred ?53 million reserve in the west Midlands and my belief was | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
palpable, pulling the Home Secretary s chestnut out of the | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
fire. The implication was police services across the country had | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
secret stashes of cash gleaned from the ill gotten gains of chief | :17:38. | :17:48. | |
constables, serving... Does it reiterate the point that what we are | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
seeing here is cross government because the same arguments are being | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
used by the Department of local government attacking councils for | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
large reserves even though you can only spend a reserve once and if you | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
look in Durham a lot of the reserves are all ready ear marked. He is | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
absolutely right and I am too much of a gentleman to call what the | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
government are doing claptrap. Clearly, the implication that the | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
money has been stashed away, serving officers with malice or forethought, | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
picking the Prince of council tax payers with a nefarious intention of | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
protecting them from crime. Of course what the police minister, | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
mimicking the amnesiac of the Home Secretary forgot to mention was a | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
comprehensive public reports, a public report broke before the West | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
Midlands police and crime panel on the 15th of October last year by the | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
Chief financial officer clearly set out bats this report details by 2020 | :18:52. | :19:01. | |
it is forecast over 80% of West Midlands PPC reserves would be used | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
to support the medium-term financial plan, transformation programme or | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
other initiatives. So, out of two thirds of ?1 billion by 2020 the | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
West Midlands PPC would have reserves of ?27 million or 4.5%. Des | :19:18. | :19:30. | |
does also find it remarkable not just from the Home Office but local | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
government that the government makes revenues and capital willy-nilly. | :19:35. | :19:43. | |
The idea... It was a cardinal sin, using capital for revenue purposes. | :19:44. | :19:53. | |
I think my honourable friend set out fairly clearly the jiggery-pokery | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
finances of this government. Jiggery-pokery. Hocus-pocus. By | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
2020, the police minister or successor will accuse the West | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
Midlands police of flying by the seat of their pants for having such | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
small reserves. In any event, the West Midlands PPC was all ready | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
doing what the police minister was suggesting he should do, evidently | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
there is a contagion of dis- ingenuity in the Home Office. What | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
was more shocking was the content of the report of December 20 15th and | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
the opposition Day debate heard from a minister refusing to take | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
interventions with the exception of those from 12 of his own members in | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
obscene QS mode. Here's insouciant and dismissive attitude towards | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
member of the house, in other words, he has form. It extended to the | :20:50. | :21:01. | |
police funding... I think he is unacceptable and they seek your | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
guidance that the reason I took interventions when I did and I did | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
take some is because the Shadow Home Secretary spoke for 35 minutes and | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
destroy the debate. How do I get that on the record? You all ready | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
have done. The dismissive attitude towards members of this house has... | :21:23. | :21:31. | |
It extended to last years police funding formula consultation process | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
which was widely agreed to be an unmitigated disaster. The Home | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
Affairs Select Committee said it is regrettable that the minister | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
proceeded on this timescale and it is unfortunate that he accepted the | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
advice from officials, it is unsurprising that as a result the | :21:49. | :21:54. | |
process ended in chaos, ended in chaos. Police funding in Britain | :21:55. | :22:03. | |
ended in chaos. And with an urgent question in Parliament and the | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
decision to suspend the whole review. I give way. The reason for | :22:08. | :22:14. | |
that, as is clear from the home affairs Select Committee report is | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
the civil servant made a fundamental error in calculations which the | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
minister came to the house to apologise for and was commended for | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
in the report which we are debating. And made Inspector Clouseau look | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
like a complete competent. The Home Office stated, not content with | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
giving the minister one caution it gave a warning, the Home Office | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
stated on multiple occasions throughout the process that it | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
wished to engage but they created a process which | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
made it impossible for them to do so. Question 20 in the consultation | :22:49. | :22:57. | |
document asked, how long should the transitional period last? Please | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
explain your answer. What is telling was the response from Merseyside | :23:03. | :23:09. | |
police and crime Commissioner Jane Kennedy, she was a former minister | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
of State in Northern Ireland office with responsibility for security and | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
justice and is someone who knows a or two about these matters. And she | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
responded by saying given the lack of detail with regard to the | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
magnitude of the proposed changes, I am unable to give an informed | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
response, a former security minister having to say that to Her Majesty s | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
government. There wasn't any point scoring, no histrionics, simply a | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
ambiguous response to a consultation process from the police and crime | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
Commissioner concerned about the service for which she is responsible | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
and is held accountable for. And there are many other more nuggets in | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
the report but I won't take at the time of the house regurgitating them | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
because there isn't a pleasant experience for those watching, | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
including the police minister. The reality in this sorry affair is I am | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
not too concerned about the embarrassment of members of the | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
members opposite, who felt the need to produce such a damning report, | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
the consensus with the word used or the embarrassment of the Home | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
Secretary or the police minister. What I'm concerned with is how the | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
government has botched an incompetent formula review creating | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
uncertainty in communities the country and the effect on morale of | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
police officers of all ranks, not to mention the exasperation caused to | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
police and crime Commissioners of all political hues. For example, | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
rural areas have expressed concern about the numbers of officers | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
because of the sparsity factor and that puts paid to claims that size | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
doesn't matter. How many of her colleagues on the benches opposite | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
would voluntarily agreed to a reduction in police numbers in their | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
own areas? Presumably, the logic of the Home Secretary would demand that | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
they would be falling over themselves volunteering to take | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
police officers off the streets, few takers, I believe. So much for the | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
argument about quality over quantity. I also wonder how many | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
members opposite prepared to call public meetings in their | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
constituencies trumpeting the need for less bobbies on the beat. | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
Because the Home Secretary thinks that quality, not quantity, counts | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
cost of family members opposite have the courage of the Home Secretary | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
convictions, does the Home Secretary have the courage of her convictions? | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
What a great slogan in Maidenhead, vote for me and have less police | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
officers. After all, it is quality, not quantity that counts. If she is | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
so taken with less police officers, let them have less in her | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
constituency and not in mine. If the police minister is so enamoured with | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
fewer police officers then he should put it on the website for all to | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
see. Perhaps a photo with his gallery or a spot the difference | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
competition before and after the implementation of a new botched | :26:23. | :26:23. | |
policing formula. The outstanding understatement | :26:24. | :26:33. | |
that... I think it was pointed out quite sensibly in my view, that | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
nobody would volunteer to have fewer police on the streets, nobody would | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
volunteer for that, and yet that is exactly the accusation today in the | :26:43. | :26:44. | |
chamber that was made against the Scottish Government, that we | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
volunteer to give away ?25 million a year to the Treasury. If, Mr | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
Speaker, I can return to the report by the committee, the outstanding | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
understatement, packed full of understatement, was the following | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
code on the outcome for police funding in the spending review came | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
as a surprise to many interested parties, including the policing | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
community. I suspect it came as a surprise to the Home Secretary and | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
the police minister as well. Finally, what would be most | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
surprisingly is the unbridled ability of the Home Secretary, aided | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
and abetted by the Minister, to botch the review, leading to | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
uncertainty, a reduction in police numbers and quality, a serious | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
threat to resilience, and ultimately to the safety of the public from | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
Maidenhead to Merseyside, through Hemel Hampstead, and many other | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
communities across the country. The message from this house is quite | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
simple: the police service is not safe in Tory hands. | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
I'm delighted to see in your place, and I can assure you, this has been | :27:57. | :28:05. | |
a very long afternoon. It was my ambition in this place, since being | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
elected five months ago, I seem to come into debates with time and it's | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
a three, four, five minutes, it was almost my ambition to take part in a | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
hopefully wide debate, but the opinion was formed before my | :28:19. | :28:21. | |
experience this afternoon. I would like to start by echoing the | :28:22. | :28:23. | |
comments of my honourable friend from Bootle, something that has been | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
missed in many submissions today, both sides of the board of the | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
police, every borough, every region, do the most incredible job. Men, | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
women and staff, we all have safety in the way that we can work out of | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
our front door and feel safe, we owe it to the men and women who occupy | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
police services all across the country, north and south of the | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
border, politics aside, we should recognise that for a moment. You | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
will no doubt be aware that police in Scotland is devolved. Many of the | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
substantive arguments that have been heard across this chamber this | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
afternoon, this long afternoon, have not had direct implications for | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
Scotland, and I do not want to ponder on many of them, what does | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
affect Scotland is the level of Westminster spending, therefore, the | :29:15. | :29:16. | |
potential Barnett Formula consequential or otherwise that | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
Scotland will receive. So that we can run a police full is we want to | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
run. It is remarkable, given the cuts that have been faced, that we | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
have maintained a commitment to 1000 extra police officers on streets. | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
Almost 20,000 police officers lost across the UK. If I have one message | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
to both sides of the house, it is, whatever funding formula you come up | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
with, whatever departmental spend you agree on over the next four | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
years, your focus should be to increase and maintain the number of | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
front line police officers, which would fiercely allow us to continue | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
to do the work that we are still doing. Despite my cynicism of what | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
has gone before in the last few hours, there are, there have been | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
some memorable submissions and speeches today, none more so than | :30:06. | :30:14. | |
the home affairs select committee member, who gave a clear summary of | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
the position, I was very grateful for the clarity with which he | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
delivered that particular speech. The member from South Dorset, back | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
in his place, I is share his concern for and said, I do not think they | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
will have their work cut out this evening to finalise the final draft. | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
-- Hansard. In a substantive point, I was interested to hear how you are | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
telling your government and this house that the police funding | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
formula has currently constituted -- as currently constituted is not | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
working for the people of Dorset and the officers that work there. Also, | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
I think that dare I say, the atmosphere in this chamber was | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
lifted momentarily, by my comrade and colleague from North Ayrshire | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
and Aaron, and for what it's worth, I would like to invite the | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
interventions and corroborate her position on the VAT position, it | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
seems to me, and it will seem to the Scottish people that Scotland being | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
treated fairly is something that gets this chamber exercised very | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
greatly. -- North Ayrshire and Arran. That will not be lost on the | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
people of Scotland, in allusion to the comments made by my honourable | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
colleague for North Durham, he did the strangest thing, he made an | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
intervention, which was answered, then made a point of order, so that | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
the government could intervene on my colleague. I know there is a | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
distinction in Scotland between blue and red, and it is becoming | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
increasingly blurred, but that was tantamount to ridiculous. Last week, | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
Mr Speaker, we had a debate in the chamber on Greece, there was a | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
difference of opinion, dedicated upon words of the Chancellor on | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
November 25, in the Autumn Statement review, " there will be no cuts to | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
the police budget at all", " there will be real terms protection for | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
police funding". -- debate in the chamber on police. The opposition | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
say that was untrue, that there was a real terms reduction. The | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
government in turn say that there is a real term reduction, but that will | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
be outweighed, offset, if you like, by the ability of local authorities | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
to raise council tax precept that can go towards police funding. It | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
appears to me that it is not this place that is protecting the real | :32:37. | :32:39. | |
terms position for police funding, it is the poor council taxpayers | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
across England and Wales that are doing so, and from a Scottish point | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
of view, unless I have picked this up dramatically wrong, we will not | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
get Barnett Formula consequential from an increase in council tax | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
spending in Scotland. Perhaps the situation was not made as clear by | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
the Chancellor in November as it might have been. As a point of | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
democracy, it is the Autumn Statement, millions of people | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
watching, I think the public and the members in the chamber should be | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
entitled to rely upon every single word that comes out of the mouth of | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
the Chancellor at the dispatch box, clearly, whether by permission, | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
whether by misunderstanding, it has transpired not to be 100% accurate, | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
I think that is plain wrong. I really have nothing further to | :33:21. | :33:31. | |
add, other than... Other than to say, other than to say, and I know | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
the policeman will be devastated at that, that assertion, other than to | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
say, whatever you agree, whatever either side of this house agrees in | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
terms of relation to police funding going forward, please, please | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
protect it in real terms, cybercrime, terrorism, a whole new | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
range of challenges, is going to be essential that we do that, for the | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
reason that Scotland will then have more money to spend on policing, | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
it'll keep our streets safe, keep children safe, that is one of the | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
core responsibilities of all members in this house. I would like to thank | :34:05. | :34:15. | |
all of the speakers, my colleagues on the side of the chamber have | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
detailed the impact it is having on constituents and police forces. I | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
would also like to thank the honourable member for Bootle, and | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
from Dumfries and Galloway, for reminding us that the police are | :34:28. | :34:29. | |
trying to do a completely difficult job at the moment, with cuts and | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
pressures coming against them, all of this house thank them for that. | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
The right honourable member for Leicester East, was very helpful for | :34:39. | :34:45. | |
setting the broader context in which we have had this debate, and this | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
debate is so important, it could not be happening at a more important | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
time. Any debate about police funding must be put in the context | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
of the crucial role that the police played protecting vulnerable groups | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
and children, getting justice for victims and given community safe. -- | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
keeping communities safe. As the home affairs select committee has | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
said, then the demands on the police are many and various. Through my own | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
campaigning work, I have found out more and more the scale of child | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
abuse, it is truly shocking, the NSPCC approximates 500,000 children | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
are being abused, reports of domestic and sexual violence are | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
increasing across the country. I will give way. Can I commend my | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
honourable friend for the work doing in that area but would she also | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
agree with me, it puts pressure on regional forces like Durham, who are | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
involved in operation Sea Brooke, at the moment, costing over ?2 million, | :35:40. | :35:49. | |
into abuse at a particular centre. You are right to raise that, because | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
cases like that are incredibly expensive, work needs to be done. -- | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
Operation Seabrook. It is coming from the existing pot we have, there | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
is no extra additional money. The government needs to look at funding. | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
Serious and violent crimes are sorry, major increase in knife | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
crime, up 9%, and 27% rise in violent crime, a 14% rise in murder. | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
Devastatingly, 50% of those cases close without a single suspect ever | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
being identified. Central government funding for police forces was cut by | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
one quarter in the last Parliament, resulting in the loss of 18,000 | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
police officers. 12,000 of them, operational front line officers, and | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
thousands of PCS Os, ever fewer police officers trying to deal with | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
evermore. The value of local neighbourhood policing, tackling | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
these challenges alongside other authorities, cannot be | :36:52. | :36:52. | |
underestimated. -- agencies. Neighbourhood policing, a proud | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
legacy of the Labour government, is eroded. Crimes are up, victims are | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
let down. After cutting the police by the 25% in the last Parliament, | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
right up until the night before the conference is spending review, the | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
government were threatened to cut at least a further 22%, we are on the | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
brink of catastrophe, under pressure from Labour, the public, and the | :37:15. | :37:23. | |
police... And London MPs... The Chancellor U-turn, and a promise was | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
made, " I am today announcing that there will be no cuts in the police | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
budget at all, there will be real-time protection for police | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
funding, the police protect us, we are going to protect the police." | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
This is a promise to the public and the police that has been broken. The | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
Chancellor said he would protect the police, we now know that police | :37:48. | :37:49. | |
budgets are still being cut. Police force funding for 2016/17 has not | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
been protected in real terms, they are being cut again for the 60 year | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
in a row, at a time when the country is facing increased risks. Figures | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
for the House of Commons library show that next year, the overall | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
Home Office grant to the police will not be protected in real terms or | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
even in cash terms, this shows that forces in England and Wales received | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
30 million less in cash, a cut worth 160 million in real terms. Even the | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
extra council tax Tories expect local people to pay to make up for | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
cuts will not, than say. I will give way. I hope maybe she will be coming | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
on to this, just to make a small point, what her party would do where | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
they in government, how they would look at this formula, and we can all | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
criticise various aspects of the argument, but what is the Labour | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
Party position on the formula itself, and how would they help | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
constituents get a fair amount of money? While I wait for that day for | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
years in advance, give us for years to plan and we will come back with a | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
proper answer. -- four. Yes, she will! LAUGHTER | :39:04. | :39:14. | |
Would you further agree, you have talked about the need for fair | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
funding from government, but also, at a local level, one of the issues | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
I am aware of in Bedfordshire, when you seek to try to use referendum to | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
make sure you have better funding locally, the police and crime | :39:29. | :39:30. | |
commission has two apparently be completely neutral on that. Compare | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
and contrast with the situation we have over the European referendum, | :39:35. | :39:35. | |
the government certainly is not stop very fair point, I'm not going to | :39:36. | :39:50. | |
get involved in the EU debate, but parity across systems is something | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
we need to be moving towards. The government recently announced that | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
there will be no cuts to police funding next year. This was a little | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
misleading. What has now become clear is that the police grant will | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
be reduced by 1 million, and there will be nothing done for inflation. | :40:06. | :40:13. | |
That comes to about seven to 8 million. The Tory police and crime | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
commission for Devon and Cornwall said, " policing still faces | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
considerable challenges, and tough decisions as we move forward, we | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
estimate that to break even, we would need to save 13 million over | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
the next four years, and only then, with further savings, can we plan to | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
invest in transformations to address the emerging threat with less | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
resources. These cuts mean thousands more officers, PCS O 's, and police | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
staff will store go. The more serious and complex crimes are | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
expensive, and time-consuming to investigate, prosecute and prevent. | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
-- PCOs. Child sexual exploitation, counterterrorism and cybercrime. His | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
21st-century challenges demand a modernised, more responsive, better | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
equipped police service, not a smaller one. Equally crucial, the | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
cooperation with other agencies, but as they come under strain, they will | :41:07. | :41:15. | |
come under pressure. Demands on the police were increasing due to cuts | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
to other public services. As local authorities deal with ruling as | :41:22. | :41:23. | |
government cuts, they are struggling to provide special support to | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
victims, to engage in preventative work with communities and protect | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
vulnerable people. -- PCSOs. Particularly out of hours. Sara | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
Thornton at the NSPCC told the select committee that the police | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
were being used more and more as the safety net of society, and that | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
after 4pm, Friday, the police are around but nobody else's. Nobody | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
ever is very clear about who else is around. -- nobody else is. In the | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
face of these challenges, not only budgets cut, but they are being cut | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
with characteristic unfairness to less affluent regions. High need, | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
high crime areas shoulder the burden. | :42:01. | :42:07. | |
The current complex formalin for funding has been called unclear, | :42:08. | :42:16. | |
unfair and out of date by ministers. Under pressure from police and | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
labour, we welcome last year the police minister finally agreed to | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
change the formula. However, instead of improving the situation, what | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
followed was a chaotic Opec unfair and ultimately completely | :42:34. | :42:35. | |
discredited view of the formula. In the words of the conservative Police | :42:36. | :42:42. | |
Commissioner, given the fundamental importance of the policy to safety | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
and security of communities, we do not feel the consultation has been | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
carried out in a proper manner. The review faced to unprecedented | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
threats of legal action by forces. It was criticised by the police and | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
crime commissioners from across the political spectrum. Unbelievably, | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
the review ultimately had to be totally abandoned because the Home | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
Office miscalculated the funding for forces using the wrong figures. I | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
thank the honourable member for Leicester East for giving examples. | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
The error meant funding had been miscalculated by as much as 180 | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
million for some areas. The shambles would be amusing if it were not so | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
serious. It goes on, it is deplorable Home Office officials | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
made errors in calculating the funding allocations for police force | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
areas. As a result of the Home Office Arab, confidence in the | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
process has been lost, time, effort and resources have been wasted. The | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
reputation of the Home Office has been damaged. Not only did the | :43:44. | :43:51. | |
mistake mean forces made budgets based on incorrect funding figures, | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
but it also meant forces now only know their funding for just one year | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
unlike local government which got a four-year settlement. This makes it | :44:00. | :44:07. | |
extremely difficult for forces to make long-term financial plans and | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
innovate on the basis of unusual settlements, particularly in the | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
context of further budget cuts. As the chairman of the committee said, | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
to call it a shambles would be charitable. And what have the | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
government done to rectify the situation? They have secretly | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
consulted with their PCC is promising to channel funding to | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
their Tory PCC is to get more. Conservative policing crime | :44:34. | :44:37. | |
Commissioner Adam Simons writes, the new funding formula proposals have | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
been deferred to 2017, it is unclear how this will that the government | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
funding however it is expected this will transfer funding from urban | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
areas to more rural. I am grateful to the honourable member from | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
Birmingham Selly Oak for making this point and so will the minister | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
please confirm if this will be the case? What commitments will the | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
minister give to the house and the police that they will never again be | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
insulted with a sham consultation like this on something so important | :45:10. | :45:18. | |
and so crucial to the safety of communities? Police service needs a | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
fair funding formula and a fair funding settlement. This government | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
has offered nothing of the sort. Thank you, and I welcome her to the | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
dispatch box, she makes -- may be there for some time because what she | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
delivered was better than the Shadow police minister and better than the | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
Shadow Home Secretary. I welcome her. I agree with some of her | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
comments. And one of the things I agree with is a closing remark about | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
this country and the police deserve a fair funding formula. The reason | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
it wasn't done under 13 years of Labour and before that is because it | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
is very very difficult and there is no doubt and I stood at this | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
dispatch box and said there will be winners and losers if you change the | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
formula. The existing form is opaque and we need to change it. We also | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
need to change it in a way which is fair, I will in a moment, I want to | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
make progress but I will because I will refer to West Midlands at | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
length so I will give way. I think it's fair to realise that policing | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
is changing, continuously changing and has changed considerably in the | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
last five years. And it is right that the National audit office have | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
indicated the way we are reporting crimes is more effective and more | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
accurate should not be used as an attempt to say crime has risen. | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
Crime in the last -- since 2010, for many reasons has reduced. But we | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
have seen some increases in figures in the last year. And I think it is | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
fair to accept that and we are looking at that. In some areas, it | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
is brilliant that we have got more people coming forward with | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
confidence to report crimes including sexual abuse or domestic | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
violence which historically have not been reported as much as we would | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
like and not treated as correctly as we would want by the police. Most | :47:32. | :47:39. | |
people accept that. I give way. I think I wanted to ask, he said | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
achieving a fair funding formula is incredibly complex, he acknowledges | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
its is beyond the competence of his civil servants and we heard from his | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
friend from South Dorset that he is seeking fair funding as are the rest | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
of us. Given the difficulties, given the doubts and suspicions, would he | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
give a commitment today that any future fair funding formula will be | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
subject to proper independent scrutiny? So we can all have | :48:11. | :48:18. | |
confidence in it? I will come onto the contents of the recommendations | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
and it is absolutely crucial, whether we use the organisations | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
referred to by the Select Committee or others, that we have the | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
confidence to say this is where we are, this is what we think is right, | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
we have the Chief constables with us and I will refer to that in a second | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
but I will reiterate the point that there will be winners and losers if | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
you have a pot of gold and divide it. We must make sure it is fairer. | :48:44. | :48:53. | |
I give way. He raises an important issue in terms of the pressures on | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
police forces for historic abuse cases. Durham is facing a ?2 million | :48:59. | :49:06. | |
bill for operation Seabrook, is it right a investigation which is | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
complex and is needed should fall on Durham and not a central pot to | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
refund for those operations? The pointy raises is important and some | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
forces have much larger percentages of costs around historical cases and | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
there is the opportunity to apply to the Home Office for assistance. It | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
is right and proper investigations are done by the forces and in some | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
forces weather were not done right early on, more reason why we should | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
have the confidence. If there's a specific point I know the inquiry he | :49:44. | :49:51. | |
refers to and owe more than happy to look into that, I don't think I have | :49:52. | :50:01. | |
had a request from Durham. While I am on Durham, Durham have done | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
fantastically well. Let me take a look at Durham because if someone | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
had landed from the moon this afternoon and listened to the debate | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
and some people wish they had gone in the other direction, who would | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
have thought Durham had really struggled? | :50:22. | :50:32. | |
Even on the latest independent reports, nine of the 12th points, | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
they were outstanding and the other two just good and only one which is | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
a serious error on stop and search and taser requires improvement. But | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
they have done that with a reduced workforce, more offices in the front | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
line so they have gone down from 1705 to 1057, a substantial | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
reduction so they have done that and they have massively reduced crime, | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
including this year, something he will praise the police in Durham as | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
I am going to now. I praised the great leadership of the Chief | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
constable and the labour PCC Ron Hogg and more importantly the men | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
and women of Durham police. But that is no reason why they should not be | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
fairly funded. And in terms of the things they have done, they have | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
done things but it has not been achieved easily and in terms of | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
getting fairer funding they would not have done under what was | :51:38. | :51:45. | |
proposed by government. What is clear is Durham have done more with | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
less and done excellently well. I agree with him completely as I have | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
said on more than one occasion, we need to have a fairer way we fund | :51:55. | :52:01. | |
the police. But Durham, of all places where he stands up there | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
saying how difficult it has been, yes, it has been difficult, quite | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
rightly for many other forces as well but praise where praise is due, | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
Durham have done fantastically well and they reduced the crime with less | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
police, more percentage on the front line than they did in 2010. I will | :52:22. | :52:31. | |
give way in a second. Actually, most of the debate wasn't actually about | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
the future funding formula, it was about the previous funding formula, | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
austerity measures and there was a degree, except from both sides of | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
the concern. Where we go forward and honouring members about the uplift | :52:49. | :53:00. | |
in firearms, I know the member for Selly Oak mentioned money which is | :53:01. | :53:07. | |
separate funded. The issue was raised about counter-terrorism, | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
separate funded from the formula. I accept in Bedford that there are | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
some real issues with funding formula. But there was also more | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
that could be done and when we look at what has happened in Bedfordshire | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
where we see counter-terrorism money was given, they did not spend it all | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
which is interesting as to when you are given that sort of funding for | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
that specific use perhaps... The percentage of officers that are off | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
duty because of that is temp ascent of the force but are not fit in | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
operational duties. That is a concern and it is higher in | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
percentage terms for such a small force. I accept there is work to do. | :53:55. | :54:05. | |
Does the minister acknowledge that given what happened in relation to | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
the review of the police funding formula and withdrawal of it, that | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
there is deep concern that it doesn't happen again and that was a | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
fear that it will not be fair. That is the concern. And honourable | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
members can exacerbate that fear but they can't actually say and deny | :54:25. | :54:32. | |
that I came to the house in humble pie because the officials got it | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
wrong but I took responsibility and we will go forward to make sure we | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
get it right. I will repeat, there will be winners and losers, that is | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
always going to be a case and people will be happier and not happy. I | :54:47. | :54:57. | |
give way. I'm grateful. I accept Bedfordshire is not going to be | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
perfect in every respect but will he concede that Bedfordshire doesn't | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
have masses of reserves sitting around, I believe only two points ?7 | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
million is unallocated in the four year medium-term plan. So to suggest | :55:16. | :55:23. | |
in some way we can physician heal thyself without fixing the funding | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
formula would be unfair. I have not suggested that, and I have suggested | :55:29. | :55:43. | |
time and again that Bedfordshire... There has been fantastic work done | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
with other forces locally in collaboration. And the capabilities | :55:47. | :55:54. | |
review which I will come onto is crucial to making sure many forces | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
get the sort of help they need as we go forward. As I do every time when | :55:59. | :56:06. | |
I stand here, I say how proud I am to be the police minister for | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
England and Wales. I was never prouder than yesterday when I was in | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
did that. We saw it on the TV but it is only when you go there and see | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
the scale of the industrial accident because there is a police and | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
healthy safety enquirer going on where half of the building has | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
collapsed and our thoughts and prayers are with the injured and the | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
families who have had their loved one given back to them but actually | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
three of the bodies are still, I use the word carefully, a recovery | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
position still underneath all of the rubble. And it will be some | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
considerable time before it is safe to reclaim them so that families can | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
bury them and understandably grieve in the way they do. | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
And, understandably, grieve. I met some very young officers, while | :57:01. | :57:09. | |
others there, they were the young officers that arrived at the scene | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
first. I can only imagine, with the experiences I have in different | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
roles before I came to the house, what went through their minds. They | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
went in one direction, Mr Speaker, a lot of other people were going in | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
the other direction. There was a dust cloud, there were not even sure | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
where the incident was at one stage. There was lots of injured, lots of | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
people that needed help, the work that I saw that took place, and the | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
unbelievable teamwork across the blue line that I saw that went on | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
yesterday went on during the incident, and under half of the | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
house and the country, I said thank you to everyone of those emergency | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
workers, and emergency personnel, that were there, even down to | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
volunteer groups that came with tea and coffee. Within literally | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
minutes, because of the agreements they had with the local police under | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
their Gold command. What I do say to them, a couple of things: I was | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
proud to be the police and Fire minister with them, they did | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
fantastically well. What they saw, on that afternoon, will live with | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
them for the rest of their life. It is not physical injuries was talking | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
about, it was mental injuries. We touched on mental health today. | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
Emergency services tends to be Matt Schaub, the Armed Forces as well. | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
But stressed touches everyone. Sometimes a couple of days later, | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
sometimes days. Sometimes years. I have had friends who suffered in the | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
Falklands, they have only begun to suffer in the last couple of years. | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
-- macho. But what was also key, and it is partly in the report as well, | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
that it was capabilities from other forces, that came to help, not just | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
the traditional mutual aid that we saw in London only a couple of weeks | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
ago in the Syria conference, when we had Armed Forces from -- armed | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
response unit is from all over the UK, and it was good to see the men | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
and women in the green uniform from Northern Ireland on the streets of | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
London. But what can we learn from it? Can we learn better from the | :59:22. | :59:28. | |
control rooms? Where there is lots of police called, police got the | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
original call, and actually, there was a slight difference in | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
terminology. That is why, in capabilities, it is absolutely | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
crucial, with the funding review, that we get the cheeks to tell us | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
where the capabilities are going to sit, and it looks quite simple, | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
initially, are we going to have it within the force? Merseyside? | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
Hertfordshire, the net? Or, in the regions. Or, the NCA. Actually, it | :59:58. | :00:05. | |
is much more concentrated, forces have been doing capability joint | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
work for some considerable time. It is absolutely crucial, when we look | :00:10. | :00:18. | |
at the formula. We do not damage the work that has already been done. | :00:19. | :00:34. | |
There is alongside the funding review, the chief constables are | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
coming forward with their own capabilities to review. The reason I | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
cannot say to the house today and the chair of the select committee, a | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
timescale and a date that I will be able to start the new consultation, | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
is I need the review to have reported to me. Otherwise, it will | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
be absolutely ludicrous, finance a new one, they come to me and talk | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
about the way that it will be structured, come back with another | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
formula, I am not willing to do that. I give way. I thank the | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
Minister forgiving way, he has given us a pathway, a timetable today, | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
which we did not have before, is he saying to the house, as soon as the | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
capabilities report comes to him, he will consider that, and then he will | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
start the funding review? That is the timetable he is now setting in | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
place. I'm trying to be as honest as I ever am, when I am at the dispatch | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
box or giving evidence to the select committee, is this in my destiny? I | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
could start a new consultation today, -- tomorrow, but I will have | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
the information within my grasp, know I will not, I have not got a | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
date. It is enormously difficult getting 43 chiefs do agree where | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
they will place their capabilities. These mittens, for instance, has | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
homicide from the whole area, and most of the others do not. | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
Cybercrime, encryption, those kind of things, they need to come with | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
us, it should not be for this house, that is what you should be doing, | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
they should be telling us where the capabilities lie so that we can help | :02:14. | :02:22. | |
funding. He will remember from my honourable friend, for Leicester | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
East, the opening speech, that there has been speculation that the review | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
will be put off until 2019. I appreciate he cannot give a | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
timetable, can he categorically rule out that it will be as late starting | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
as that? No minister would stand and give categorical responses. I | :02:42. | :02:51. | |
cannot. What we are determined to do, and the Met is crucial to this. | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
We need to make sure that we have an understanding from the chiefs and | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
the PCOS, where they are asking for deliberations to come from. -- | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
PCSOs. Then we can come forward and get it right. I think that the | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
response today was very measured, the reason when the Labour Party was | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
in government put forward that they were going to do this, and did not | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
do it, was part of the discussions we are having now. Crime has | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
massively changed since then. Of course, I will give way. The | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
Minister is absolutely right, crime has changed, does he share my | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
concern that when we get the data for the online crime, whether that | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
is fraud or grooming or abuse, that that is going to make the crime | :03:44. | :03:54. | |
figures Spike? They said yes. I will say to the honourable lady that it | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
does not mean tomorrow morning or next week or next month that | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
suddenly, from that night before to their, you have five bidding, 6 | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
billion, whatever, the increase, because it is happening to all of us | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
in constituencies now. The difference is that we will publish | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
it. The only way that we can do this is to be honest and publish it. I | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
don't know why previous ministers did not publish it in previous | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
administrations, I'm not allowed to see those figures coming in need you | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
diligence. You are not allowed to see that guidance. I would think it | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
is because initially it was not taken seriously enough. Then they | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
began to realise that it is actually a very difficult figure to pull | :04:34. | :04:44. | |
together. I'm going to give way. Is he telling the house, I know from my | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
own position that Dorset are working with Devon and Cornwall, other | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
police forces are looking at how they run their bluelight service. | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
The emblems and the Fire Brigade. Until everyone has had a real look | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
at this, in various areas, and come up with some sort of joint policy, | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
isn't there a consideration that only then would they be able to say, | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
OK, we have all of these various people doing different things, now | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
we can come up with allocation of funding? That is not what I intended | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
to say... What I intended to say was that forces that have done that kind | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
of collaboration already should be not worse off by anything that we | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
have brought forward. What the chiefs are doing now is their own | :05:34. | :05:42. | |
capability review, across policing, the vibration of service is | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
something different, and when we know what the delivery point will | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
be, in other words, where they think they will be, what part of the | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
country, or they will keep it within the force, then we have the basics | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
of how they can come forward. And I just make a tiny bit of progress, | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
just a tiny bit. OK, one more. How can I say no(!) if he's doing | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
business, why was it possible on the previous thing, to think that it | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
could be done in eight weeks? And can I ask him, what role the | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
Treasury is going to be in this. Are they still sitting on his shoulder, | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
trying to get savings out of this? Are we starting with an entirely new | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
process which... One of the key things has been raising this debate, | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
he has got to get the confidence back, in chief constables, PCCs, and | :06:37. | :06:44. | |
the police family. I have broad shoulders but not quite old enough | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
the Treasury's influence in this is only that they have flat terms cash | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
agreement for four years, not one year. That is the agreement we have. | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
That is there, all the chiefs know that, all of the PCCs know that, if | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
they do not, they know it is now. It would be wrong if I did not mention | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
Scotland. Not least because we have a very interesting contribution from | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
the honourable lady. I did not want to get into a spat between the | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
Labour Party and the SNP. All that I can say, I thought that the SNP's | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
position was quite... Well, I am lost for words, almost, I thought it | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
was ridiculous. That is being polite. If you go to your bank | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
manager, and you ask for a loan of ?10,000, and you agree that, and he | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
has looked at the business plan and it is agreed as a business person, | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
and as you walk out, after presenting a business plan to the | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
people that will give you the money, you say, by the way, I want another | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
20%, they are going to laugh, they are going to laugh as I laughed when | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
I first read that is exactly what the SNP have done. What we have to | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
try and understand is that if you have a business plan together, then | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
you submit it to a joint force in Scotland, and you accept the | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
business plan, that you will not give a 20%, how can you come to the | :08:20. | :08:26. | |
house and bellyache? To point, when you walk out of that particular bank | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
and you find out that every single competitor on the street has better | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
terms than what you have, it begins to rankle, and you will protest. We | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
also, when we included that in the business plan, we made protestations | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
clear, we told them that we did not think it was right, we reserve the | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
right to campaign on it, bomb here, for ever and a day. Just because it | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
was agreed, just because it is in the plan, does not make it right. If | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
you sign a contract, and you have an agreement, you are tied into the | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
contract, I am afraid, at the end of the day, you can protest as much as | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
you want, but at the end of the day, you signed a contract which said no | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
VAT and now you are in a position... I'm not going to give way. The | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
honourable gentleman must not chant from a secondary position in hopeful | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
anticipation of the minister giving way, what he does is signal, and if | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
the minister gives way, then he can intervene! -- chunter away. I'm | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
going to come to a conclusion, not least because we have debated this | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
last week, we debated this three weeks before that, two weeks before | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
that, I have no idea why the Labour Party called a debate last week | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
which has meant that less members are here today for the select | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
committee report than would have been here. At the end of the day, at | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
the end of the day, we all want more we all want to have confidence that | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
the police are there, and they are there, we need to have confidence | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
that crime is dropping, if it is dropping, at the end of the day we | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
need a different formula, that is what we are going to try to provide. | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
I'm sorry that I cannot give the chair of the select committee the | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
dates of each part but I think that he may understand why I want to get | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
this absolutely spot on and write, which is why I have made the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
responses I have today. It has been a sensible debate, even if I have | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
not agreed with everything from the Labour Party benches. Can I say to | :10:23. | :10:30. | |
the house that this has been an excellent debate, with so many right | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
honourable and honourable members talking about their own special | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
areas. The passion that we have in this house for the local police | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
force and the respect we have is quite obvious. I want to add my | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
thanks to Simon Colclough Chief Constable of Leicestershire, and the | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
men and women of Leicestershire police, especially at this time, | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
with one hour to go, until the next time the police will be out at the | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
King Power Stadium, protecting the best football team in England. With | :11:00. | :11:06. | |
apologies, to what happened on Sunday, Mr Speaker, to your own | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
team(!) however, that is just one example of the wonderful policing | :11:12. | :11:22. | |
work that is done... I know that as an Arsenal supporter you would find | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
it difficult to listen to a Leicester supporter, especially | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
after Saturday, when it would be difficult, but the point that is | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
being made is interesting, policing has massively changed around | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
football ground, we have done it in a completely different way to the | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
way that we did it before, and thank goodness, the kind of violence that | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
we saw when I was younger it is no longer here. | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
Indeed. The key question the Select Committee wanted the minister... | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
Wanted answered was when. He has not told us when but he has given us a | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
timetable. He is waiting for the capabilities report to come from the | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
lead at the National chief constables Council. When he gets | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
that, you will review that and will start the process. At least we have | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
a timetable, a pathway so some clarity, not the absolute clarity we | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
needed but some way forward to find out how we will get a police funding | :12:23. | :12:31. | |
formula that is fit for purpose. The question is... I was going to say as | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
on the order paper. The question to dispose of the motion stands until | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
7pm tomorrow. We come now to motion number three and with the leave of | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
the house I propose we take motion is three to five each is on the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
subject of Social Security together and perhaps the whip will move in | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
respect of three to five. The question is as on the order paper. | :13:02. | :13:14. | |
The ayes have it. Motion number six. Not moved. Motion number seven on | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
ecclesiastical ball. The question is as on the order paper. I think the | :13:22. | :13:31. | |
ayes have it. The adjournment. The question is that this house do now | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
adjourn. This do Gavin Robinson. Thank you and may I express my | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
gratitude to you and your staff for this adjournment and the opportunity | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
to raise what for me in my constituency has been a devastating | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
blow but not just for us in east Belfast court for the Northern | :13:54. | :14:00. | |
Ireland economy and constituents in Derby affected across Bombardier s | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
operation. Given the nature of the debate, I trust members will have no | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
objection to the parochial title I chose for the debate but it is my | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
deserted bus my constituents in east Belfast while recognising this is a | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
much larger story. Bombardier employs 74,000 people, in 20 | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
countries across the world. With 7% employees are in Belfast working | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
directly in the aerospace industry. On the 17th of February, the | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
announced job losses are 1080. I give way. I thank him. The figure of | :14:41. | :14:53. | |
1080 jobs lost, there are some 1000 workers in Bombardier in my | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
constituency and are concerned is unjust east Belfast but Strangford | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
as well. I commend him for bringing this to the house for consideration | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
and his hard work. When it comes to helping, the help needs to reach | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
beyond east Belfast. Thank you, I'm grateful to him for making that | :15:16. | :15:23. | |
point, 5500 on this site in east Belfast and around the city and five | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
other locations but the people working for Bombardier lived | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
throughout the province and around the city and in East Antrim and | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
Carrickfergus and Bangor and North Down and in Strangford and across | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
the province and this news story not only affects the thousand and 80 | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
impacted most directly but for their families and the local communities | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
which they support and the shops and so on, the decision announced on the | :15:56. | :16:03. | |
17th of February was seismic. I'm grateful for him to allowing me to | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
intervene in this important debate. He will be well aware that his party | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
leader, the first minister Arlene Foster will be making her first | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
visit to America shortly to mark Saint Patrick stay with the Deputy | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
first minister, her first visit in that capacity and I wonder if the | :16:26. | :16:33. | |
honourable gentleman has asked the ministers to encourage the American | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
government which has done so much really to support the peace process | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
and other events in Northern Ireland whether they could intervene in this | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
case. I am grateful and she raises a fair point and when I was a special | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
adviser to the first minister I had the opportunity alongside the Deputy | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
first minister of visiting the Bombardier facility in 2012 and | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
there are important strategic links that have grown and it is an | :17:00. | :17:08. | |
important avenue to pursue. Mr Speaker, as the largest private | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
employer in Northern Ireland providing highly skilled, well-paid | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
jobs in a technically advanced industry it is of great influence. | :17:15. | :17:25. | |
To put it into perspective, it is 10% of the overall operating budget | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
of the executive. Bombardier is responsible for 10% of Northern | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
Ireland exports manufacturing figures. As a region, our enterprise | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
minister have the realistic ambition and positive ambition of growing the | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
impact of the aerospace industry from 1.1 million to 2 billion by 20 | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
24. I thank him for giving way and he talks about being parochial but | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
the launch of the C series in the Bombardier, the factory has a huge | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
contribution to make to the UK aerospace sector. Would he agree | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
whereas I understand his concern for his constituents this is a national | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
problem as well as a local one. I completely agree and I was seeking | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
men this forgiveness for the parochial nature of the title of the | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
debate. This is much larger than east Belfast and UK and global story | :18:26. | :18:34. | |
given the nature of aviation. So, I recognise I posited target by 2024 | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
but to achieve that a man given the announcements it is important that | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
at this stage we take stock and establish how best we can grow to | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
meet the target. The present difficulties are associated with | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
that developer and of the C series at aircraft and it is exactly the | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
sort of manufacturing we as a country should be supporting. The C | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
series aircraft is novel, highly innovative, utilising the best | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
advances in lightweight technology and in its class represents the next | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
generation of light noise reducing fuel-efficient aircraft that will | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
travel further for less with wings fabricated and assembled in my | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
constituency of east Belfast. Such innovation has brought with it the | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
pressures from competitors in both Boeing and Airbus. The project has | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
taken three years longer than anticipated and $5.4 billion over | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
budget. It cash flow has become a problem but if I may I wish to nail | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
myths that should not go unchallenged. Firstly, Bombardier is | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
not a busted flush. They have taken the bold but significant step to | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
refocus operations to enhance their competitiveness and the rising | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
company values, one indication that whilst painful, the recalibration of | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
the international operation was an important step from. Government | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
could not have done the work to stave off jobs. Not only have | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
Bombardier said as much, half the job losses announced were in Canada. | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
Four months after the Qu bec government invested Canadian | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
dollars. There was nothing regional government or national government | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
could have done in the last number of weeks to stave off the difficult | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
announcement that was made. Far from the government being inactive, I | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
have been encouraged by the support of the regional and national | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
government and therefore at this stage it would be appropriate to | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
place on record my appreciation for the commitment from the Right | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
honourable lady. She recognises the importance of Bombardier to the | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
Northern Ireland economy. Within hours of the announcement in recess | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
week she was available on the phone to discuss the issue with me, she | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
stood readily able to assist and yesterday morning she flew to | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Belfast toured the facility and met with management to extend support | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
alongside the minister of state for Northern Ireland and she was here | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
late into the night, there was an early start for the minister but she | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
was committed and she responded most ably. I would echo and indoors much | :21:13. | :21:28. | |
of what my colleague has said. And many of the job losses are not just | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
in one constituency, they have a wide scatter. But with the | :21:34. | :21:35. | |
honourable member agree with me the point he touches on is important. | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
That the job losses are indicative of a need for all of us here and for | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
the executive in Northern Ireland and for the government in this place | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
to work together because Northern Ireland needs a comprehensive | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
strategy that is not down to the executive in Northern Ireland alone. | :21:59. | :22:08. | |
I am grateful for the contribution who has workers at Bombardier in his | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
regional and national government for regional and national government for | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
Bombardier has reaped rewards. Since the privatisation in 89, billions | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
has been invested in the facilities. Most recently ?140 million from | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
national governments have secured additional 850 million investment | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
funding from Bombardier including 520 million for their wings facility | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
which was opened by the Prime minister and visited yesterday by | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
the honourable lady. But here is the ask. Knowing the support of the | :22:44. | :22:51. | |
minister, I would ask that she leaves no stone unturned in | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
considering how best we can support Bombardier, particularly given the | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
investment that has been present for the C series. I would be keen UK TA | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
take a more imaginative approach as to how best they can support | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
aircraft Manufacturer is when they seek to secure orders | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
internationally. Competition in the market is rife but with three | :23:13. | :23:14. | |
competing firms seeking government support, I would urge a tactical | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
deployment of support dependent on both the need and likelihood of | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
success. Inflating the order book for the C series must be a goal for | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
us all. The opportunities for small and city centre located airports are | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
greatly significant and encouraging the inclusion of the C series in | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
their fleet mix and support for the significantly innovative industry | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
must form part of government action plans and I trust the minister will | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
address those points in her response. Personally I am aware of | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
the planning challenges that exist in London city airport and a | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
discussion with colleagues about ending the impasse on planning | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
restrictions would prove fruitful for the C series and Bombardier. And | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
finally following a personal request, she committed to hosting a | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
discussion alongside MoD representatives with the aerospace | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
security and defence industry in Northern Ireland to share a national | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
procurement opportunities with them and grow the output and contribution | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
to this country is export capabilities. With 70 companies in | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
Northern Ireland and 27 in my constituency, I know the renewed | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
importance of this request will not be lost on the minister. Mr Speaker, | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
when someone finds themselves without work, with lost opportunity | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
and no idea what is next, we must morally and politically stand with | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
them and offer light during the most darkest times. For those 1080 | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
affected, their families and the aerospace industry, I trust we will | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
start that process tonight. The minister of State to respond. I | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
begin by congratulating the honourable member, my new friend, | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
for Belfast East and I hope the honourable friend also for Stanford | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
will forgive me because I have a new friend in Northern Ireland but he | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
has secured the adjournment debate and this is an important matter and | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
I don't seek to make light of it. I wish to take the opportunity to | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
express my deep regret at Bombardier in announcing its plans to reduce | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
its workforce over a thousand jobs as we have heard in Northern Ireland | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
and 270 at its works in Derby. It is a huge lieu worrying time for the | :25:34. | :25:39. | |
workers and their families -- hugely worrying time. As we have heard, the | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
impact of this decision will be felt not just in the honourable | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
gentleman s constituency but other communities in other constituencies | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
of members. As he says, yesterday I visited Bombardier in Northern | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
Ireland to discuss the recent announcement and how we can do even | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
more to support them. The question is that the house now adjourns. | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :26:15. | :26:17. |