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We will come to the points of order. Honourable members raising points of | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
order should have an attentive audience. Which seems more likely | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
once those leaving have done so quickly and quietly. And what is | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
more, sorry to disappoint the honourable gentleman, whose | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
eagerness is evident for all to see, that the points of order come out of | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
the question and this statement. I'm sure these are genuine points of | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
order, honourable members will come scurrying back to the chamber to air | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
their concerns at the appropriate moment. Meanwhile, we have quite | :00:44. | :00:53. | |
considerably important and rich Parliamentary offering. Grateful to | :00:54. | :01:01. | |
the honourable gentleman from North Dorset, with an urgent question. He | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
is a very senior denizen of the House. Urgent question, Mr John | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
Redwood. I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he will make a | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
statement on what new financial and other obligations apply to the | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
United Kingdom in the EU Turkey agreement. Minister of State. The | :01:21. | :01:31. | |
agreements reached in principle at the EU Turkey summit on Monday | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
represent a basis which could mean in future all migrants arriving | :01:36. | :01:42. | |
increase will be returned to Turkey. If implemented that would break the | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
business model of the people smugglers. Ending the link between | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
getting in a boat and settling in Europe. Something the Prime Minister | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
and the government have been arguing for for over a year. It would not | :01:56. | :02:03. | |
impose obligations on the United Kingdom, in terms of resettlement | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
and relocation. We are able to maintain our own border controls and | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
make our own decisions on asylum. Nor were the United Kingdom beards | :02:15. | :02:20. | |
obliged to settle any more refugees. We are resettling 20,000 of the most | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
vulnerable Syrians to the United Kingdom from our own scheme. We will | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
not be part of the process of liberalising visas, that is a | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
process for the Schengen countries. We still require visas for Turkish | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
citizens visiting Britain. The European union agreed on Monday in | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
due course to extend the financial support to help Turkey. Currently no | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
further proposals on funding returns, and we wait to see any | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
proposals before commenting. We have already agreed to pay our ?250 | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
million share of the existing 3 billion euros Turkey refugee | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
facility. I'd tabled a written ministerial statement about this | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
earlier this week. This builds on our existing ?1.1 billion bilateral | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
support for the Syrian crisis, and the additional bilateral commitment | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
we made at the recent London conference on Syria. The Turkey | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
refugee facility is designed to provide immediate humanitarian | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
support, and also to fund of the schools, hospitals and housing | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
required over the longer term to support refugees and the communities | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
which host them. The agreement at the EU Turkey summit on Monday we | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
ensure that the 3 billion euros commitment agreed at last November's | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
EU Turkey summit is properly dispersed. Over the coming weeks we | :03:48. | :03:57. | |
will aim to reach final agreement at the European Council on the 17th and | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
18th of March. After which my right honourable friend, the Prime | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
Minister will make a statement of the House as usual. Mr Speaker, one | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
of the reasons I asked for this urgent question, the statement from | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
the EU heads of state or government issued yesterday makes it very clear | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
that the Visa liberalisation applies to all member states of the European | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Union, not just the Schengen area. I quote from the official document. | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
They agreed to accelerate the intimidation of the Visa | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
liberalisation road map with all member states, with a view to | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
lifting the Visa requirements for Turkish citizens at the latest by | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
the end of June 20 16. Will the Minister be seeking clarification | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
and an amendment to this statement, he has told us these Visa | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
requirement waivers will not apply to all states. Is he going to | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
negotiate an opt out to make it very clear they will not do so. This'll | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
be a matter of concern to people, if the text issued from the heads of | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
government and state meeting is not the same as the clear statements we | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
have in getting from ministers there, and through the media in the | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
last few hours. The second thing, which I'm surprised he has not | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
mentioned, there was not an agreement to an accelerated process | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
to get Turkey to join the European Union as a full member. I would like | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
to get him to comment on the United Kingdom's position on the face of | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
the proceedings to get Turkey into the EU, and what arrangements, if | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
any, need to be maimed when Turkey joins, over freedom of movement, and | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
whether they would need to be transitional arrangements, which | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Britain would not wish to be part of the freedom of movement area without | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
proper transitional arrangements and protections. I find it curious that | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
we still don't know what we may be paying, if our share of 3 billion is | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
250 million, plus the contribution we have made through the EU budget, | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
presumably we're looking at more than 250 million on top of that, if | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
a double it up from three - six. That will be a levy on the member | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
states, and I think it should be properly reported to the House of | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
Commons, because it is an additional contribution on top of the normal | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
budget. If I could respond to my right honourable friend's three | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
questions, we have not sat from Schengen, written into the treaties. | :06:35. | :06:42. | |
Similar arrangements applied to Ireland and Denmark in different | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
respects. The legal measure used for any liberalisation of these | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
arrangements to Turkey would be a Schengen measure, brought forward | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
under the appropriate treaty -based, therefore not applying to the United | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
Kingdom, Denmark or Ireland. I have made clear my response to the right | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
honourable friend, the government does not intend to liberalise Visa | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
arrangements to Turkey. On the second point, it has been the policy | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
of successive British governments are including the one in which my | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
right honourable friend served with such distinction to support the | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
eventual addition to the youth of Turkey. -- the EU. That will not be | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
happening in the near future. The head states of government said on | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
Monday they would prepare for the decision on the opening of new chat | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
is for the negotiations as soon as possible. To open a chapter like | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
chapter 23, dealing with matters of the rule of law may well be very | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
helpful in strengthening the dialogue we should be having with | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
Turkey on the rule of law, human rights, and the standards except | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
expected of candidate members of the European Union. Again, no agreement | :08:11. | :08:21. | |
yet been reached, of any aspect of opening new chapters, and many | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
different member states will have their views on that. My right | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
honourable friend's particular point about Turkish accession, and freedom | :08:28. | :08:40. | |
of movement, the governance has said repeatedly, we will not agree to any | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
enlargement of the year, unless we have first put in place new | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
arrangements for the controls and freedom of movement. -- EU. So do we | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
do not take on the risk we have had in 2004 a very large movements of | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
people. In the aftermath of EU accession. Every decision to do with | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
EU membership requires unanimous decisions, every country has a veto. | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
Third might right honourable friend asked about finance, as I said in my | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
initial comment, no formal proposals on the table, ongoing negotiation at | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
EU level, where there are many moving parts. My right honourable | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
friend, the Prime Minister, will make a statement after the European | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
Council next week. The refugee facility agreed last year is | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
something that is budgeted for, that is having to, causing | :09:40. | :09:48. | |
reprioritisation by the commission amongst the various spending | :09:49. | :09:50. | |
programmes, and that seems to be a sensible thing for them to be doing. | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
The countries of the Middle East and the European Union are now | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
confronted by the biggest refugee crisis since the end of the Second | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
World War. The last 12 months, over 1 million people have the European | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
Union by C. Does the Minister agree that the only way to deal with this | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
crisis is to work with our European neighbours and other countries | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
affected by this in the region, including Turkey? We welcome the | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
fact that people are working together to try to find a solution, | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
rather than individual solutions to what is clearly a collective | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
challenge. We also need to recognise that the language we use reflects | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
that we are talking about fellow human beings in the most difficult | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
of circumstances. Does the Minister then agree with me that it was | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
deeply irresponsible of the Prime Minister to refer to people who are | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
frightened, in difficult situations, women, children, as a bunch of | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
migrants was to mark does the Minister agree that the only way to | :10:58. | :11:08. | |
prevent this flow of refugees is to stop because of it, the slaughter of | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
people in their own country? The EU have said they agree the broadband | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
support of a plan to ease the migration crisis, so can the migrant | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
-- canny Minister tell us how many of the promised 12 thousand -- | :11:24. | :11:32. | |
20,000 refugees we have settled? Can he set out how the money offered | :11:33. | :11:44. | |
will be spent, how will he ensure it will be spent on what is intended | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
and how? Does the Minister agree that this is why we need to work | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
together internationally, rather than walking away from our shared | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
interests and responsibilities? Can I start by agreeing with the | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
honourable lady that it is in this country's interests and in every | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
European country's interests that we put together a determined and | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
coherent response to this crisis. I would agree with her, too, that no | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
single European country can solve this human tragedy and the wicked | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
work of the people traffickers exploiting tragedy on our own. She | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
asked me about the ceasefire in season -- in Syria. The latest | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
information we have is that it is holding but it is not holding | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
perfectly. I don't think that should come as a surprise to any member of | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
the House. The Prime Minister took part with other European leaders in | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
a conference call with President Putin a feud a 's ago to take stock | :13:01. | :13:08. | |
of how things looked and to urge President Putin to urge -- to work | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
towards a political settlement and a transition in Syria which we | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
continue to believe represents, long-term, the best answer to try to | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
rebuild that country to give people a safe and secure life there. She | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
asked me about how the business model of the people traffickers was | :13:31. | :13:40. | |
going to be harmed by the decisions last week. One of the key elements | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
of the deal, and I emphasise again that this has yet to be finalised, | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
one of the key elements would be that somebody who went in a boat and | :13:51. | :13:58. | |
was then intercepted or was processed, having reached one of the | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
Greek islands, would face being sent back to Turkey and then being put to | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
the back of the queue as far as a legal resettlement wheat was | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
concerned, so the incentive for people to entrust their safety to | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
the people carriers would be removed. She asked me about the | :14:20. | :14:29. | |
number of arrival -- arrivals in this country under the Syrian | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
refugee resettlement scheme. It is now running at over 1000. It is | :14:33. | :14:41. | |
going on track, much as we had planned, and I ought to recognise | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
the role that both the devolved administrations and local | :14:47. | :14:48. | |
authorities of all political colours have played in trying to make this | :14:49. | :14:55. | |
successful. They are trying to make it as easy a process as it is | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
possible to be for the people we are trying to help. My honourable friend | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
correctly said there is no obligation on the United Kingdom to | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
take in extra migrants in this deal. Will he confirm that any of the 1 | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
million migrants who have come to Europe in the last year and be | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
million who are expected this year, once they are given citizenship, | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
will all have the right to come to these the UK so long as we arrive -- | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
we remain in Europe? Because we are outside Schengen, we impose border | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
checks on everyone, including EU citizens, and we have the right to | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
tighten them back when we think their presence in the United Kingdom | :15:47. | :15:55. | |
might impact on our safety. Those who have been granted refugee status | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
in Europe, have been granted it in Germany, for those trying to get | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
there, the proportion of refugees who actually get German citizenship | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
is only 2.2% of all refugees. That is because the German citizenship | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
procedure is so rigorous. It takes eight to ten years before somebody | :16:20. | :16:26. | |
can get German citizenship. To do that, you have to do have a | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
completely clean criminal record, show you have an independent source | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
of income and you have to pass an integration test including | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
demonstrating a knowledge of German. So I think some of the fears which | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
have been expressed are rather exaggerated given the reality of the | :16:44. | :16:51. | |
German situation. We share the deep concerns expressed by the United | :16:52. | :16:52. | |
Nations that these oppose laws would alternate the Syrians right to | :16:53. | :17:09. | |
protection under international law. With this in mind, what advice has | :17:10. | :17:21. | |
the Minister received on this issue? Can he set up transparency around | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
the 3 billion euros set to be given to Turkey around the end of March' | :17:27. | :17:33. | |
and lastly, what can he do to encourage human rights in Turkey and | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
hold the Prime Minister to account against his actions against his own | :17:38. | :17:45. | |
citizens is to mark on the final point, we speak all the time to | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
Turkish colleagues about human rights and rule of law matters and, | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
as I said earlier, we believe that the EU accession process, | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
particularly chapters 23 and 24, can be opened to provide the best means | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
for seeking those reforms in Turkey, which I think has support on all | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
sides of this House. The statement of the heads of state and Government | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
says in terms that all these arrangements must be done in a way | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
that complies with international law, so that is something which | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
every Government has taken on board. I don't think we should forget | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
either that Turkey has provided refuge to about 2.6 million people | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
who have fled from Syria. A large number of those people have been | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
living in safety in UN administered camps inside Turkey for many months | :18:41. | :18:49. | |
contact -- many months, sometimes years, so let us not forget to | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
acknowledge the hospitality that the Turkish Government and ordinary | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
people of Turkey have shown. This simply serves to demonstrate that | :19:04. | :19:16. | |
this is proof that you has agreed to encourage the accession of Turkey | :19:17. | :19:24. | |
into the EU. Does the Minister agree this is not right with the human | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
rights situation as it is, not least for their Kurdish population? We | :19:30. | :19:38. | |
would hope that as soon as possible the peace process with the Turkish | :19:39. | :19:46. | |
Kurds would begin again, which appeared to be making progress up to | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
six months again. On my honourable friend's other point, as I have said | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
before, there has been no agreement yet as to whether or not particular | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
chapters or any number of chapters of the accession negotiation should | :20:03. | :20:09. | |
be opened. This is something which the heads of Government are going to | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
return to next week at the European Council and they would have to be -- | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
there would have to be unanimous agreement to each and every decision | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
to open a new chapter or two agree that progress had been made on any | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
element of Turkey's accession negotiation. This is not a swift | :20:33. | :20:41. | |
process. Under this deal, Turkey has received 3 billion euros. It has | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
asked for a further 3 billion euros by the end of 2018. When will those | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
negotiations start and, given that 90% of those entering beat you | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
illegally do so with the assistance of criminal gangs, why has the Prime | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
Minister and the EU not ensured that Turkey would be paid on the | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
performance basis for the number of people traffickers that they bring | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
to justice? People traffickers need to be brought to justice in | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
whichever jurisdiction they opposite -- they operate. It is often the | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
case that the people committing the crimes, involved in trafficking at | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
the sharp end, are not the people at the top of these organisations. As | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
the right honourable gentleman knows, we are talking about their | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
re-professional, very well organised and well funded international | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
criminal networks who often indulge in drug smuggling as well as in | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
people smuggling. These are transnational companies engaged in | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
criminal enterprise. There has been no agreement yet on anything going | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
beyond the 3 billion euros refugee facility that was agreed in November | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
last year. Since that agreement, Turkey has taken a number of steps | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
to help refugees from Syria, for example by making it possible for | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
them to get legitimate work with in Turkey and opening up permit | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
arrangements for them. Everyone in this House will have heard some | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
disturbing reports recently of a newspaper office in Turkey being | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
closed down for publishing critical commentary about the Turkish | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
Government. Could the Secretary of State please inform the House, do | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
member states of the European Union value ever closer union and freedom | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
of movement over and above the rights to freedom of speech of the | :22:50. | :22:56. | |
individual? The EU and the United Kingdom Government made very clear | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
last week that we continue to see freedom of the press, freedom of | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
expression in the media, as a cornerstone of the values that we | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
champion at international level. Adherence to those principles is | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
written into the European treaties and no country that fails to | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
subscribe to those can expect to receive EU membership. The principle | :23:24. | :23:32. | |
of stopping the dangerous smuggler routes and providing instead safe, | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
legal routes to Sanctuary is clearly a sensible one. He will know there | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
are a series of legal, practical and physical problems with regards to | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
that and whilst he makes clear that there will be no changes to Turkish | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
these arrangements for Britain, I suspect in many other areas they | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
will be changes in the week ahead. Can he tell me whether the British | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
Government has raised the plight of Afghan and Iraqi refugees, it in | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
particular we know that around half of solo children who claimed asylum | :24:09. | :24:18. | |
in January were from Afghanistan. What will the situation be for them? | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
The honourable lady makes a reasonable point on the position of | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
people who have come from other war-torn countries, as that needs to | :24:29. | :24:36. | |
be considered very seriously. We do need, at all times, to bear in mind | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
the basic principles of the 1951 UN Convention on refugees, which are | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
first that to get refugee status you have do show that you have a well | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
founded fear of persecution and, second, there is an expectation that | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
when somebody please, they should seek and apply for refugee status in | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
the first safe country that they reach and not try to pick and | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
choose, perhaps at the behest of people traffickers, various | :25:08. | :25:07. | |
countries. May I press my right honourable | :25:08. | :25:16. | |
friend further on human rights and rule of law abuses in Turkey, in | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
relation to the EU Turkey agreement? Even though last year because I | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
provided him with a copy, Lord Woolf, and Sarah Pailin wrote a | :25:32. | :25:44. | |
report, and the right honourable gentleman and I wrote about the | :25:45. | :25:52. | |
human rights abuses carried out by the Turkish government. May I ask | :25:53. | :26:01. | |
the Minister to firm up attitudes towards Turkish admission? While | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
these abuses continue, there should be no question about them joining. | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
Even though we need Turkey as a member of Nato, and the agreement | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
with the migration problem? We certainly continue to regard their | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
adherence to principles of human rights, freedom of expression, and | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
belief, and so on, as aims that should be at the heart of the reform | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
work of any country seeking to join the European Union fools of what I | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
put in my right honourable friend, the evidence of other accession | :26:42. | :26:49. | |
negotiations, is that it is possible to secure much swifter and more | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
significant progress towards those reforms that we all want to see when | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
you sit down and start working on the details benchmarks, and progress | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
measurements in those chapters of an EU accession, dealing specifically | :27:10. | :27:17. | |
with the rule of law matters. The amount of money given by the EU to | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Turkey is fully justified, and hopefully more will come, for the | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
reasons the Minister has explained. Would he accept, arising from | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
previous questions, over a period of time the president of Turkey has | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
done his best to undermine democratic rights in that country? | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
Outright intimidation of critics? A newspaper taking over last week by | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
his henchmen, becoming a mouthpiece for the regime? More recently than | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
that, a news agency. Does the Minister realise, there can be no | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
question of Turkey becoming in any way associated with the EU while | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
this intimidation of critics continues? Indeed the president of | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
Turkey gives a very good example of trying to follow Putin. As I've said | :28:11. | :28:19. | |
before, Mr Speaker, we continue to talk frequently with Turkish | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
officials and Turkish ministers at all levels about the importance we | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
ascribe the human rights, the rule of law, and freedom of expression. | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
That will continue to be a core element of our dialogue with Turkey. | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
Further to the question put to my honourable friend, by the honourable | :28:43. | :28:51. | |
member, I'm not clear what the government's position on the | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
legality of this mass transfer of intercepted migrants back to Turkey | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
is. What instructions are being given to the tax -- captain of the | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
Royal Fleet boats, when they intercept the baiter migrants. As | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
the captain be authorised to take those people back to Turkey? Will | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
they be accepted? How does that fit made by the comments -- fit with the | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
comments made by the UNHCR last night? I'm not sure if my honourable | :29:28. | :29:36. | |
friend was in the House for the statement my right honourable | :29:37. | :29:37. | |
friend, the Secretary of State for Defence made on Monday about the | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
Naval operation. De Nadai operation is in gauge is in initial | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
reconnaissance and surveillance of illegal crossings. They pass that | :29:50. | :29:58. | |
information the Turkish authorities at the Turkey censor the Coast Guard | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
can carry at intersections. Not work done by Navy vessels. Anyone | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
watching the refugees and the scenes across Europe over the past year | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
will know we simply could not carry on as we were. This requires us to | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
act in concert with others, in terms of the consequences of what is | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
happening, and the causes rooted in war and conflict. Can I therefore | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
agree with the Minister, no individual country can deal with | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
these consequences alone. Can I urge him to reject any approach that says | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
Britain's answer should be to pay nothing, do nothing and fill up the | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
drawbridge? I think this country has a long and proud tradition, both of | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
seeking to help people who are in dire need, wherever in the world | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
they are, but also seeking to build political stability in areas that | :31:02. | :31:10. | |
are in what I may describe as our own neighbourhood. I think there | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
have been plenty of examples in our history, and European history, where | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
the failure to grip problems decisively has led to worse | :31:23. | :31:28. | |
conflict, and worse human suffering. And worse political problems for | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
European governments that have been taken earlier. Can I press my | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
honourable friend further on the legality of this deal? As I | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
understand it the UN's top official on refugees has thrown for expressed | :31:44. | :31:51. | |
real concern about an arrangement that involves a blanket return of | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
anyone from one country to another. What I'm particularly concerned | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
about is that this looks as if the EE is trading one set of refugees in | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
Greece for another set of refugees in Turkey. I cannot see where the | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
guarantee is in this arrangement that they will be any drop-off in | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
numbers. I am beginning to find this arrangement very, very worrying. As | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
I said earlier, Mr Speaker, one of the elements of this agreement, if | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
it can be finalised next week, will be, for the first time, we will be | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
breaking the link between people getting into a boat, or people being | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
rescued from a boat in the Aegean Sea, and gaining rights to go into a | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
resettlement process and relocation process inside the European Union. | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
Instead they will be an agreed legal route for people to go from the | :32:53. | :33:00. | |
camps into European countries. That will provide a very serious | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
disincentive for people to place themselves in the roofless and | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
exploitative hands of the people traffickers. On the matter of | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
legality, the statement of the heads of state governments there is in | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
terms, whatever arrangement they may reach next week should be in | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
accordance with both European and international law. I wish to | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
associate the Liberal Democrats with the comments on free speech. Also | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
the comments made in regards to be very troubling 141 refugee | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
agreement, raising both practical and moral concerns. The Minister is | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
a very honourable man, surely cannot be comfortable with an agreement | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
that requires refugees to risk their lives travelling to the EE you, in | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
return for another refugee only from Syria to get safe passage. That is | :34:01. | :34:09. | |
entirely unacceptable. The purpose we have is to put in place a set of | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
arrangements which remove the incentives for people to trust their | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
safety to the people traffickers. Unless we are able to do that, the | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
risk is exactly that the flow of people, and the appalling casualties | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
resulting from that flow of people will continue. As always, the | :34:29. | :34:38. | |
Minister is putting in a very skilful performance. The matters as | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
to whether Turkey joining the EU is very important. Once again the | :34:43. | :34:50. | |
Foreign Secretary has not answered one urgent question recently. We | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
would like to see him more. The question of Turkey joining the EE | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
you, it is Her Majesty's considered opinion that Turkey should not be a | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
member of the EE. We have been blackmailed into progressing this. | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
Given the closure of the main opposition paper, can the Minister | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
confirm as a matter of fact, once Turkey joining the EU, because the | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
EE believes saved passionately in the free movement of people. All 77 | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
million Turkish people will be to come and live there and work there | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
without any check at all, and there's nothing we can do about it. | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
As I said in some of my earlier remarks, we are not yet at the point | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
where anything has been finally agreed. My right honourable friend | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
the Prime Minister will make a statement after next week's European | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
Council. The support for Turkey eventually to join the European | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
Union is an objective that has been shared by Conservative and Labour | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
governments since before I was in the House of Commons. My honourable | :36:02. | :36:11. | |
friend is not correct to say this will be rushed, certainly not the | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
history of previous accession negotiations, they take many years, | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
and there is a right of veto for every member state over every single | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
decision associated with an accession process. One thing that | :36:26. | :36:31. | |
has to be sorted out, during accession negotiations, what the | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
arrangements of movement will be. As the Prime Minister has said on many | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
occasions, the United Kingdom will not agree to any further members of | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
the European Union and so we have new and different arrangements in | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
place that ensure that a new member joining the EE cannot again leads to | :36:52. | :36:59. | |
the very large migratory flows we saw after 2004. Turkey has indicated | :37:00. | :37:09. | |
it needs ?6 billion to address the problems of your Fugees. It is much | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
better to address the crisis where it begins. Can the Minister say what | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
discussions he has had with the Turkish catchment to ensure the | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
money is sent to the places it is needed most. And those with | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
Christian and other beliefs perceive it as well? The money that has been | :37:29. | :37:36. | |
assigned, both in our bilateral spending, and at EU level is going | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
to people in need in Turkey, and in the surroundings and eight. There is | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
a separate facility to give humanitarian support to refugees and | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
asylum seekers in Greece, that the large sums of money I have been | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
talking about are being spent in Turkey. The answer to the honourable | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
gentleman, both the United Kingdom and the European Union disperses the | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
money very largely through the United Nations relief agents these, | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
such as Unicef, and through the major reputable non-governmental | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
humanitarian relief organisations, so it can help those in need, and we | :38:20. | :38:28. | |
know it is going there. Those of us in favour of leaving the European | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
Union gives certainty as what that 12 lookalike. The Minister's speech | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
is full of caveats as to what may or may not happen. Does he accept that | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
is what in looks like for those of us concerned of human rights issues? | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
And the things that will come with the Turkish accession? There can be | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
no certainty that the fear factor staying in, it is not safe for to | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
stay in rather than leave? The reason that I am caveat in some | :39:01. | :39:14. | |
of what I am saying is the very reason that there was negotiation at | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
the summit on Sunday but there has not been a final agreement. There | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
will be an effort to reach final agreement next week and then my | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
honourable friend will be able to question the pie minister about the | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
detail of that. I would simply say to her, she and I differ on the | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
issue of EU membership, but habit of working together with in | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
Europe to solve foreign policy problems which cannot be met by any | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
one individual country on its own, not even the biggest or most | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
influential, is a sign of health and a good reason for us to remain | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
members of that organisation. Turkey has a pivotal position in all of | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
this. It could make the move is to make sure we have safe havens in | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
Syria but it equally has an important role in stopping the | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
people traffickers. Can I ask the Minister whether the British | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
Government has seen plans from the Turkish Government on how they | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
intend to stop the people traffickers? There are talks going | :40:21. | :40:30. | |
on between our enforcement agencies, between Europol and their Turkish | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
counterparts, I think you will understand why I do not want to go | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
into detail about those. His point about safe havens, those are a | :40:41. | :40:49. | |
possibility. That possibility was discussed at the new Turkey summit | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
but there are many political, legal and military complications to that | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
particular step. We haven't ruled it out but there is no agreement on | :41:01. | :41:10. | |
that as yet. Surely the most important thing in all of this is to | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
deal with the problem at source, namely Syria? So what discussions | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
were had with the Turks and the EU as to how to put more pressure on | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
the parties in the Geneva process to make sure we have a lasting peace | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
agreement in Syria? Those discussions did take place within | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
the summit, although the purpose of the summit was to try to hammer out | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
a way forward in dealing with the refugee crisis that is causing such | :41:40. | :41:46. | |
difficulties, both to Turkey and to the European Union. I can assure my | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
honourable friend that the British Government and other European | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
governments are in constant contact with our Turkish counterparts about | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
how best to bring an end to the appalling conflict inside Syria. The | :42:00. | :42:08. | |
Minister must recognise that an act of humanitarian response must | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
involve more than simply asking Turkey to facilitate the mass | :42:16. | :42:25. | |
expulsion under a barter scheme of different classes of refugees. Will | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
they properly address next week the concerns about whether or not this | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
scheme violates international law on human rights? Yes and that is why | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
the statement issued after Monday's summit said explicitly that the | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
agreement we were seeking had to comply with international law. This | :42:49. | :43:00. | |
agreement is related to a wider issue of underfunding of refugee | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
camps across the Middle East by the international community. What will | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
be governed do to reinforce the message from the United Nations that | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
many of our international partners, not the UK, we have done our fair | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
share, many of our international parties -- partners are not stepping | :43:20. | :43:27. | |
up to do their fair share? My honourable friend makes a very fair | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
point. I think we can trace the surge in movement from Turkey into | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
Europe last summer in large part due to the decision the UN had to take | :43:40. | :43:47. | |
to cut food rations and restrict educational possibilities inside the | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
camps, leaving more people to feel they had no option but to place | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
themselves in the hands of people traffickers. My honourable friend | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
will, I think, know that the United Kingdom co-hosted a Syria donors | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
conference in London just a few weeks ago and that produced pledges | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
from the international community of more than ?10 billion. That is a | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
welcome step forward but I will be the first to say we now have do | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
ensure that those pledges are turned into real money going to help the | :44:20. | :44:29. | |
people who are in desperate need. I absolutely agree that Turkey's | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
crucial partner in the efforts to resolve the situation in Syria and | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
that shall we should be doing more ourselves in supporting Turkey in | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
helping with the migrant crisis but can I tell the Minister that the | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
largest number of UK citizens of Turkish origin live in North London | :44:49. | :44:55. | |
and Enfield in particular. The vast majority of Kurdish and they are | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
concerned about what is happening in Turkey in terms of the president | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
refusing to acknowledge the decision of the Constitution, the | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
imprisonment of over 30 journalists, curfews and the restriction on | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
freedom of speech and the death of many innocent people who are their | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
friends and relatives. Although the EU may be the context of the | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
accession process in which these issues can be resolved, can the | :45:24. | :45:31. | |
Minister insurance these issues will be raised with the president and | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
will not be brushed aside? Certainly as far as the UK is concerned, we | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
raised the sort of concerns the honourable lady has expressed in our | :45:44. | :45:45. | |
dialogue with the Turkish Government at every level. Recognising at the | :45:46. | :45:53. | |
same time that Turkey is in a better place today than it was under | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
military rule, but we want to see our Turkish ally move with greater | :45:59. | :46:09. | |
energy towards that full recognition of the rule of law and human rights | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
that the Turkish Government says that they remain committed to. It is | :46:17. | :46:26. | |
very good for me to be able to call the honourable gentleman today. Mr | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
Bernard Jenkin. Thank you for that. May I put it to my honourable friend | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
that actually this deal is a rather grubby one? We all know that the | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
Government and the whole of the European Union is desperate to be | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
seen to be resolving this migration crisis, but this is a self | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
restricted -- a self-inflicted crisis in some way because the | :46:55. | :47:03. | |
Schengen arrangement is an invitation to those to get into | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
Europe to try to travel anywhere, so they are doing a very grubby deal | :47:09. | :47:17. | |
with a country with a difficult human rights record in order to send | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
these refugees back to their country of origin. Can I draw his attention | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
to what we have given up in this agreement? It says that we are going | :47:28. | :47:37. | |
to accelerate the these are situation with all member states. I | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
don't doubt his sincerity that he intends that only two applied to the | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
Schengen area. Will he take care that it does only apply to the | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
Schengen area in any text drafting of this agreement next week? The | :47:52. | :48:03. | |
first thing is to reiterate again that as yet there has been no deal. | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
That is a matter for discussions between now and next week European | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
-- next week's European Council. I'm sure my honourable friend has | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
studied the treaty is intensely, in which case he will know that a | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
measure affecting users or migration has to be brought forward on a | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
treaty -based, where the United Kingdom is not bound, where the | :48:28. | :48:34. | |
United Kingdom can choose whether or not to opt in. The Prime Minister | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
has made it very clear that we are not going to participate in Beazer | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
liberalisation with Turkey. That is a sovereign decision for us to take | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
-- Visa liberalisation. That is recognised in European treaties. I | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
think most reasonable people would support a mechanism put in place to | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
stop the people trafficking routes and the dangerous routes across the | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
Mediterranean. But can I ask the Minister, what assessment will be | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
Government make when this mechanism is in place to ensure it is | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
operating in the way he envisages it operating but also that the money | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
reaches the people precisely it once -- we wanted to reach, the refugees? | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
The honourable gentleman makes a very fair point and monitoring the | :49:25. | :49:33. | |
review mechanisms must be part of any eventual agreement and that is | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
the sort of thing officials will be working on in the week to come. I | :49:37. | :49:47. | |
share the concern for the thorough Terry and approach of the president. | :49:48. | :49:55. | |
-- the authoritarian approach of the president. We know there is a great | :49:56. | :50:04. | |
burden on the refugees and the standard of their camps is better | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
than anywhere in Europe, not least of all France. Can he confirm that | :50:11. | :50:25. | |
these negotiations will not renege on the issue of the Cyprus problem? | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
My honourable friend hints at one of the issues that has caused the | :50:33. | :50:40. | |
stalling of the process of accession negotiation in recent years. That is | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
something that, again, is going to need to be thought about and talked | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
about in the days before next week's European Council meeting. There has | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
been no agreement as yet on opening any accession chapter. Isn't the | :50:59. | :51:07. | |
logic of the proposal that if Turkey successfully stops the crossings, | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
then no refugees are resettled from Turkey? Isn't that a greater | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
incentive than ever for Turkey to waive people onto the boats and | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
isn't it clearer than ever the better solution is to offer safer | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
routes? That is not the nature of the discussion that we are having | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
with Turkey. I think it is slightly simplistic. I don't want to be | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
unkind, but it is slightly simplistic to think that Turkey can | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
simply switch the and off as regards flows of people and the activities | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
of people traffickers, particularly when you look at the sea crossing to | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
the island of Samos. Only 1600 metres separate the Turkish and the | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
Greek coast. Once a dinghy has gone 800 metres, they are in Greek | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
territorial waters. There was a clear commitment on Monday by both | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
the pro Minister of Turkey and EU leaders to find a way forward and a | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
recognition that it was in the interest of both EU countries and | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
Turkey itself that this issue should be settled I a coherent, | :52:18. | :52:26. | |
well-planned strategy outlined in the paper issued. Is it not the case | :52:27. | :52:34. | |
that one of the biggest problems facing Turkey is the situation in | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
Syria? Is it not the case that the Russian action in Syria has produced | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
a large new wage of refugees -- wave of refugees leaving that area? I | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
could emphasise what my right honourable friend said on the 7th of | :52:52. | :52:57. | |
March, emphasising that a lot of the money that we are putting in, and | :52:58. | :53:08. | |
the comments are right about Turkey's human rights issue, but do | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
we not have more power being in the EU than being on the outside carping | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
about it? I agree that if we are not at the table, we will not be able to | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
shape or influence those decisions in anyway. We really do have an | :53:24. | :53:32. | |
excellent Minister for direct, with a great record over the years and I | :53:33. | :53:40. | |
hope he is there after the 23rd of June and will negotiate our exit | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
from the EU. Can I ask him to day that in the question of certainty, | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
the British people can only be certain that 77 million Turkish | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
citizens won't have the right to come to this country for certainty? | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
The only way we will get certainty is if we come out of the European | :54:01. | :54:02. | |
Union. Must urge my honourable friend to | :54:03. | :54:13. | |
study the European treaties and particularly the European | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
directives. The treaties are quite clear. Each and every aspect of | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
accession negotiations, including negotiations for controls on | :54:25. | :54:31. | |
migration must be agreed in unanimity. Every state including the | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
UK has a veto on every aspect of an accession negotiation. I think he's | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
making the mistake in imagining that things will happen in the way he | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
describes. Can the Minister confirm the majority of those coming into | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
Europe from Turkey are men. The majority come from countries other | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
than Syria which have a very poor human rights record in regards to | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
women. How can we be sure the mass migration taking place at the moment | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
will not impact on women's right, very hard-fought four on this | :55:12. | :55:21. | |
continent? We have a genuine humanitarian crisis in Syria. It is | :55:22. | :55:32. | |
now being exploited by people traffickers, who on this point my | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
honourable friend is correct, trying to encourage people of other | :55:36. | :55:45. | |
nationalities to come in and try and claim refugee status on the back of | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
genuine refugee claims and genuine refugee needs. That reinforces the | :55:50. | :55:57. | |
importance of having a robust system for processing individual claims, so | :55:58. | :56:04. | |
we can distinguish between people who have a well founded fear of | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
persecution, and people trying to move for economic reasons. The | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
reason why the United Kingdom is giving help is to strengthen the | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
capacity of the Greek system in particular to carry out those | :56:21. | :56:28. | |
processing and distinguishing between genuine refugees and those | :56:29. | :56:33. | |
trying to move for other reasons. During the negotiations on the EE | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
Turkey agreement, can my right honourable friend tell the House if | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
there have been discussions raised by Nato generals about Russia and | :56:44. | :56:54. | |
Syrian weaponisation of migration? A truly disgusting tactic. I think | :56:55. | :57:01. | |
what has been in everybody's mind is the fact that the bombing of | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
civilians by the Assad regime, with Russian support, in areas like | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
Aleppo, it is leading to the movement to even greater numbers of | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
people, initially into Turkey and 11 on, then across the GMC, to Europe. | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
That reinforces the need for us to turn this fragile cessation of | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
violence into a genuine peace process inside Syria, and political | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
transition offering the hype of rebuilding the country. I am reading | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
the statement clearly, the Turkish have some very good negotiators. | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
With the Minister, who has already outlined that our financial | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
contribution is 250 euros to the first 3 billion. There will be an | :57:54. | :58:02. | |
additional funding, we still be making a contribution to its? There | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
is no formal proposal tabled as of yet. The United Kingdom contributes | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
to EU measures agreed collectively by the EU. We have also paid | :58:17. | :58:23. | |
significantly more out in terms of our bilateral contributions to the | :58:24. | :58:30. | |
needs of refugees in Syria, and other countries in the | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
neighbourhood. I don't think we should be in the least ashamed of | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
this country's role in helping those people, who have been in desperate | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
need. One of the reasons I have been so proud to support this | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
government's commitment to the 0.7 target, it gives us the resources | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
and flexibility to respond to humanitarian crises speedily, | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
wherever they happen to be. Am I right in assuming that the captain | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
of the Royal Fleet auxiliary Mountsbay is able to | :59:04. | :59:19. | |
report the activities of people smugglers between Turkey and Greece. | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
To pick up people in distress, but not to stop people smugglers going | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
and not wishing to be picked up? Could I asked the Minister why that | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
is the case? More to the point, if those rules pertaining, what is | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
happening on the eastern seaboard of Turkey, which we are subsidising, by | :59:41. | :59:50. | |
the Turkish security forces stopping people smuggler vessels setting out | :59:51. | :59:58. | |
to Greece? Turkey does very large proportion of its coastguard | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
resource to the Aegean Sea already. For reasons I gave and answered to | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
an earlier question, intercepting every single one of the small boats | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
making a relatively short crossing to where the Greek islands is not as | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
straightforward as is sometimes suggested. I would refer my | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
honourable friend for greater detail to the statement my right honourable | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
friend the Secretary of State for Defence gate of the House on Monday. | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
The native activity is to provide monitoring, and reconnaissance to | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
both Turkish and Greek coastguard, and the EU expedition, to disrupt | :00:41. | :00:50. | |
the migrant boat. Interested to hear the Minister confirm that Britain | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
would not be required to be part of the Visa waiver arrangements, given | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
we are not part of Schengen. We are part of another common travel area | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
with the Republic of Ireland. What discussions will become it be having | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
with the Republic of Island in relation to these issues? My | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
honourable friend makes a reasonable point. Ireland is not in Schengen | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
like the United Kingdom, they are not obliged to participate in any | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
Visa liberalisation. We clearly keeping very close contact with the | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
authorities in Dublin, because of the existence of the common travel | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
area, we need to make sure we take account of each other's decisions. I | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
don't anticipate any difficulties. We are normally pretty much alike. | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
He's right to register this is an issue we need to have in mind. The | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
prize for perseverance and patience goes to Mr Marcus Fish. Thank you, | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
Mrs Debaty speaker, does my honourable friend appreciate access | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
to Visas for Turkish citizens may lead | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
immigration into Europe causing misery across the continent? I don't | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
think there is a necessary connection between illegal migration | :02:15. | :02:23. | |
and movement of people legally under some kind of Visa waiver system. The | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
reassurance I can give my honourable friend, the United Kingdom is | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
outside Schengen, we can, we do, and we shall continue to impose whatever | :02:37. | :02:44. | |
Visa requirements, and whatever checks on migration at our ports we | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
consider to be right for the safety, security and well-being of the | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
people of the United Kingdom. Border. Secretary of State for | :02:55. | :03:06. | |
Health, Mr Jeremy Hunt. -- order. Thank you madam Debaty speaker, with | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
permission I would like to inform permission I would like to inform | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
the House on steps the garment is making to secure safer seven-day | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
NHS. We're proud of the NHS, what it stands for the record numbers of | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
doctors and nurses working under this government. We pride comes a | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
simple ambition, that the NHS should offer the safest, higher scare | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
anywhere in the world. Today we are taking important steps to make that | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
possible. In December, following the problems that Southern health, I | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
updated the House improvements that were needed in learning from | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
mistakes. NHS professionals deliver excellent care to 650,000 patients | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
every day. We are determined to support them to improve still | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
further the quality of the care we offer. This government has | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
introduced a tough and transparent inspection regime, new GT of candour | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
to patients and parents who suffer harm. And to save lives lost by | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
sepsis. According to the health foundation, people suffering from | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
preventable diseases has dropped in preventable diseases has dropped in | :04:18. | :04:32. | |
a number of years. Twice we operate on the wrong part of a person's by | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
the week. Pioneering work has estimated that 3.6 of hospital | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
deaths have a 50% or more chance of being avoidable. 150 deaths every | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
week. We should remember that, despite their standards of safety | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
compare well to many other countries. I want England to lead | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
the world in offering the highest possible standards of safety in | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
health care. Today I'm welcoming to London health ministers and safety | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
experts from around the world for the first-ever ministerial level | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
summit on patient safety. I'm co-hosting the summit with the | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
German Health Minister, who will host a follow-up summit in Berlin | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
next year. Other guests included director general of the world health | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
organisation, the Chief Executive of the renowned Virginia Mason Hospital | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
in hospital. Anthony Francis QC. We will discuss many things, but in the | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
end, all the experts agree, no changes permanent without culture | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
change. That culture change needs to be about two things, openness and | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
transparency about where problems exist, and a proper learning culture | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
to put them right. With the new inspection regime for hospitals, | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
GP's surgeries and care homes, a raft of information published | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
online, we have made progress in transparency. As Sir Robert Francis' | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
report told us, it is still hard for doctors, nurses and other front line | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
staff to raise concerns in a supportive environment. Other | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
industries, particularly the airline and nuclear industries have learned | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
the importance of developing a learning culture, and not a blame | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
culture if safety is to be improved. Too often the fear of litigation for | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
professional consequences inhibits the openness and transparency we | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
need to learn from mistakes. Following the commitment I made to | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
Parliament at the time of the Morecambe Bay investigation, from | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
the 1st of April we will set up our first-ever independent health care | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
safety investigation Branch. Modelled on the air accident | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
investigation Branch which has been so successful in limiting fatalities | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
in the airline industry. It will undertake timely no blame | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
investigations. As with the air accident investigation Branch, we | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
will bring forward measures to bring legal protection to those who speak | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
honestly to investigators. The results of such investigations will | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
be shared with patients and families, he will therefore get to | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
the truth of what happened much more quickly. Unlike at present, those | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
investigations were not normally be used in mitigation and discipline | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
every proceedings, which the normal rules and processes will apply. The | :07:32. | :07:40. | |
safe space created will reduce blame culture, patients and families to | :07:41. | :07:50. | |
five, seven can learn from and stop repeating mistakes. I want to use | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
this reform to encourage much more openness to have the NHS response to | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
tragic mistakes. Families will get the truth faster, doctors will get | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
support and protection to speak out. The NHS as a whole will become | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
better at learning when things go wrong. When patients and families | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
who suffer, and what they want more than anything else is a guarantee no | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
one else will have two relive their agony. This new legal protection | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
will help us to promise them never again. Fundamental to the change is | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
developing a strong reporting culture in hospitals, where mistakes | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
are acknowledged, and not swept under the carpet. Today NHS | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Improvement has published a learning from mistakes ranking of NHS Trusts, | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
drawing on data from the staff survey, and save the incident | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
reporting to show which trusts have the best reporting culture, and | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
which ones need to be so better at supporting staff who want to raise | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
concerns. This will be updated every year in a new state of hospital | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
quality report. Also containing trusts' estimates at their avoidable | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
mortality rates and will have a strong focus on learning and | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
improvement. The General medical Council and the nursing and | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
midwifery Council guidance is clear. Where doctors, nurses and midwives | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
admit what has gone wrong and apologise, the professional tribunal | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
should give them credit, just as failing to do so is likely to incur | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
serious sanction. The government remains committed to further reform | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
that would allow professional regulators more flexibility to | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
resolve cases without stressful tribunal 's. This change in culture | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
must extend to trust this and every procedures. NHS Improvement will ask | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
for a commitment to openness and learning reflected in all | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
disciplinary procedures, and ask for a charter to improve transparency so | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
staff can have clear expectations of how they will be treated if they | :09:57. | :09:57. | |
report clinical errors. Finally, from April 2018 we will | :09:58. | :10:09. | |
introduce medical examiners recommended in the Francis Report. | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
This will ring in a profound change in our ability to learn from deaths, | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
with each investigated by a coroner, giving grieving relatives the | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
opportunity to be at the heart of the process, flagging up concerns | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
about care two independent physicians, meaning we get to the | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
bottom of systemic failings of care more quickly. An NHS that learns | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
from mistakes, one of the world's largest organisations becoming the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
world's largest learning organisation, that is how we will | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
offer the safest care and I command this statement to the House. -- | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
commend this statement to the House. Can I thank the Secretary of State | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
for his statement and let me say at the outset that the operation | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
supports any measures that will improve safety in the NHS and make | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
it more open to learning from mistakes. However, we will also | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
provide robust opposition and scrutiny when we think the Secretary | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
of State's actions are having the reverse effect. So let me start by | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
setting out where we support the Government. On independent medical | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
examination, the Secretary of State will know that this is a reform that | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
these benches have long been pushing for. The previous Labour Government | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
legislated for the introduction of medical examiners in 2009, following | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
"re-into the crimes of Harold Shipman. The call to introduce | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
medical examiners was then repeated in the Francis Report and the | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
Morecambe Bay investigation. The report last year said this: we | :12:02. | :12:09. | |
cannot and -- understand why this has not yet been implemented in | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
full. Whilst we welcome the implementation of medical examiners, | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
it is concerning that it now appears to have been delayed until April 20 | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
18. Can the Secretary of State Sehwag process in this -- progress | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
in this area is so slow and will he be consider that, given that April | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
2018 is more than two years ago? Can he also say how this will be funded | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
as Jamaat local Government is facing further cuts over the coming years | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
and whilst it is my understanding that local authorities will be | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
reimbursed for setup cost, I believe they will have to collect fees to | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
fund the service. How will this work in practice? Is the Secretary of | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
State confident that local Government, at a time when it is | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
already having to do more for less, will be able to take on the role of | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
administering this process? We also support the changes to the General | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
medical Council and Nursing and Midwifery Council guidance that the | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
Health Secretary says he is announcing today which will | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
recognise the importance of an apology. But it is unclear how this | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
is different on the new guidance which came into effect last August. | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
Indeed, the GMC first announced plans to change their guidance in | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
this way over a year ago. Can the Health Secretary say how his | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
announcement today differs from plants which were already in place? | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
On the learning from mistakes leak, can be Secretary of State say how | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
those 32 trusts who have a poor reporting culture will be supported | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
to improve? We know from listening to the testimonies of the mother of | :14:01. | :14:11. | |
one patient that the learning culture in some trusts is just not | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
good enough. I know from listening to my own constituents that the | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
fight to get mistakes recognise is only part of the battle. They also | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
want to know that the failures they have experienced will never happen | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
to anyone else and yet, all too often, they are faced with a system | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
which seems as if it simply struggles to learn. Does the | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
Secretary of State except he needs to do much more to develop a | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
positive learning culture in the NHS and how, in practical terms, will he | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
support clinicians and managers to improve services? Go to any health | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
trust and you will find a director of finance, nonexecutive directors | :14:56. | :15:03. | |
with financial expertise, but he will rarely find the same attention | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
paid to quality. Does he agree that the board needs someone whose focus | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
is not short-term firefighting but someone who will coordinate and | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
drive forward quality? I will always support sensible steps to improve | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
safety and transparency in the delivery of health services but what | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
I can't do is stand here today and pretend that other actions taken by | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
this Government won't have a detrimental effect on patient care. | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
The Health Secretary's kamikaze approach to the junior doctor | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
contract means that no matter how this dispute ends, he will have lost | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
the goodwill of staff on which the NHS survives. How can he stand here | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
and talk about patient safety when it is him and him alone who is to | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
blame for the current industrial action for the destruction of staff | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
morale and for the potential exodus of junior doctors to the southern | :16:09. | :16:17. | |
hemisphere? And how, Madam Deputy Speaker... Order. Thank you. And I | :16:18. | :16:28. | |
ask him, how can he stand here and say he wants the NHS to deliver the | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
highest standard of care anywhere in the world when the people he depends | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
upon to deliver that care to patients have said, enough is | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
enough? And how can he talk about patient safety when he knows that | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
his ?22 billion worth of so-called efficiency savings in the next four | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
years will be to job cuts and heap more pressure upon a service which | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
is about to break? Madam Deputy Speaker, I know the Health Secretary | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
has been shy about visiting the NHS front line in the last few months | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
but speak to anyone who has had any contact with the NHS and the message | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
you will hear is clear. The financial crisis facing the NHS is | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
putting patient care at risk. The independent -- the independent King | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
's fund recently said this: three years on from Robert Francis's | :17:26. | :17:31. | |
report into mid Staffs, which emphasises that safe staffing was | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
the key to maintaining quality of care, the financial meltdown in the | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
NHS now means that the policy is being abandoned. That is simply not | :17:43. | :17:49. | |
good enough. For those people who have experienced failures of care, | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
for those staff who are working in environments so pressurised that | :17:56. | :17:57. | |
they fear for the quality of care that they are able to deliver, the | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
Health Secretary needs to get his head out of the sand. I say this to | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
him: measures to investigate and identify harm are all well and good, | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
but there needs to be action to prevent harm from happening in the | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
first place. Fund the NHS adequately, staff it properly and | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
you might just give it a fighting chance. The honourable lady had the | :18:23. | :18:31. | |
chance to be constructive. I do welcome her commitments to a safer | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
NHS but we need actions, not just words from the Labour Party, if they | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
are to be believed that they want to improve care. Patients and their | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
families will have noticed that when it came to the big test for Labour | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
as to -- as to whether to back honourable patients who need a seven | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
day NHS or the BMA who oppose it, they have chosen the union. Let me | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
remind the House what the founder of the NHS said about the BMA. A small | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
body of politically poisoned people have decided to stir up a much -- as | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
much emotion as they possibly can. They have misrepresented the nation | :19:24. | :19:32. | |
of the call and they will call. He would have wanted a high standard of | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
care for everyone across the week and so should she. She also | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
challenged the Government on safety, so let's look at the facts. Under | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
this Government, MRSA under this deed to present. Record numbers of | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
the public say there care is safe, the proportion suffering from the | :19:54. | :20:05. | |
major causes of problems under -- down by 50%, 11 trusts put into | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
special care. Compare that, before she gets on her high horse, with | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
Labour's record. Avoidable deaths at mid Staffs, Basildon and many other | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
trusts. Care is bad we had to put 27 hospitals into special measures. | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
Contracts that reduced weekend cover in our hospitals passed by the last | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
Government. They made the seven-day NHS harder. We are trying to put | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
that right. She stood on a platform to put ?5.5 billion less into the | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
NHS each year than this Government. We are putting more resources into | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
the NHS. A strong NHS needs a strong economy and Labour had better | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
remember that. Let's look at some of her other points. What I said about | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
the GMC and NMC guidance, having said that it would change, was that | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
that guidance has now changed and it was clear that people would be given | :21:15. | :21:17. | |
credit in tribunals for being open and honest when things have gone | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
wrong. She challenged me about the timings for the introduction of | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
medical examiners. The shipment enquiry's third report recommended | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
medical examiners in 2003. Labour failed to implement that over seven | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
years. In six years, we are implementing it, which is what I | :21:39. | :21:41. | |
announced to date. I am confident that there will not be additional | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
burdens on local Gutman. -- Government. She talked about | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
supporting the trusts which do not have the right reporting culture. | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
That is what we are doing to day. We have not just published the names of | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
the trust that do not have a good reporting culture but we have | :22:07. | :22:08. | |
published the names of those that do. Those trusts that are struggling | :22:09. | :22:17. | |
with this can learn from them. She says I need to do more. With | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
respect, the measures we have taken on openness and transparency and | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
putting quality at the heart of what the NHS does and needs to stand for | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
go a lot further than any thing we saw under the last Labour | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
Government. I would just say this to her, it does say rather a lot that | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
on the day this Government has organised a summit with experts from | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
all over the world on how to make hospitals safer, the Labour Party is | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
lining up with unions against safer seven-day services. I urge her to | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
choose the more difficult path of reform that will help make our NHS | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
the safest health care provider in the world. What a shame the lady on | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
the front bench couldn't have taken the opportunity to condemn the | :23:08. | :23:16. | |
strikes and supporting unions and not the patients will not impress | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
anyone. I welcome the setting up of the health care safety investigation | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
Branch and the medical examiners. This will contribute better results | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
and better outcomes to the health service. The Secretary of State has | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
taken a personal interest in sepsis, Madam Deputy Speaker, in particular | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
responding to the UK sepsis trust. In particular, the Mead family who | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
lost their son and other relatives of patients who have died from | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
sepsis. He knows that the ombudsman report was back in September 2013 | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
and it contained many recommendations, including | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
particularly the request for a public awareness campaign which | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
would potentially save lives. With the Secretary of State perhaps tell | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
the House what progress he has made with this because these relatives | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
who are campaigning seem to have been waiting a long time for this | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
public awareness campaign that they believe will help them? | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
I would like to thank my right honourable friend for her | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
campaigning on sepsis. She does a fantastic job with the all-party | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
Parliamentary group. We announced a plan in January of last year, a | :24:33. | :24:34. | |
major area where we need to and increase knowledge inside and | :24:35. | :24:46. | |
outside the NHS. As I told the all-party group a couple of weeks | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
ago, we are now looking into the possibility of a public information | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
campaign. What we want to establish is whether that should be just about | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
that says, or it should be a more general public information campaign | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
to parents, so they can understand when they need to worry about a | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
fever, something very common amongst small children, for which there may | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
be other reasons apart from sepsis, meningitis being in this one. We are | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
doing the detailed work, we want to get it absolutely right, but I | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
commend her persistence for making sure we deliver in this area. I | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
would like to welcome the statement from the Secretary of State, I | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
welcomed the establishment of medical examiners, which we have had | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
in Scotland since last year. I would also ask why the delay of another | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
two years before it comes on stream? As it was a doctor, it was always | :25:45. | :25:53. | |
obvious to me. Someone actually reviewing deaths may have made the | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
difference. I would not underestimate the importance of | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
auditing, and learning from routine auditing, rather than | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
whistle-blowing. In Scotland we have the Scottish audit of surgical | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
mortality in the 1990s, it showed people dying you have not had a | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
sufficiently senior surgeon in their case. That was discussed with the | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
profession and practice change. Future years showed a consultant | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
surgeon on the and a junior anaesthetist. It identified the lack | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
of high dependency nursing units for the sickest patients. Working with | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
audit like that, working with professionals, as we have done, | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
coming up for 20 years would have allowed an evolution of a stronger, | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
safer seven-day emergency service. I will again: the Secretary of State | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
to commit to looking at, if you like, a surgical approach. The | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
things that are missing, access to scans, radiology. Perhaps more | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
senior review and senior involvement. This is not junior | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
doctors, it is not blanket. Also we do need to look at the ratio of | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
staff, Frances and other researchers showing the importance of nursing | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
staff. Staff who do not have a minute to stop and think will make | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
mistakes, and will not have time to report them. We need to make it | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
easy, people need time to minimise mistakes, and there needs to be that | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
culture. I would make a final claim, the Secretary of State is offering | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
more support to whistle-blowers. Perhaps review and reconciliation of | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
those badly treated in the past may give people more confidence that if | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
they step up and report something significant, they will not be hung | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
out to dry as is been the case in the past. I would contrast the tone | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
of her response, and I by no means agree with everything she says, but | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
the tone of the response from that from the Shadow Health Secretary, | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
because she makes important points. On medical examiners, it is not the | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
case we have delayed it. In the last parliament we have pilots, so we | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
could understand exactly how they would work. It is relevant to the | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
other point about auditing, which I agree. Medical examiners will be | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
able to look for are expected for unexplained patterns in death. The | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
vast majority of deaths are routine, predictable and expected. They will | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
be able to identify looking at auditing tools, where there are | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
things to worry about. That is White will be important next step. With | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
respect to whistle-blowers, I reflect on what she says. What we're | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
trying to do today is to eliminate the need for it ever to get to the | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
point where someone had to become a whistle-blower. We want to make sure | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
people are supported to speak out about mistakes they have seen, made, | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
concerns they have. And be confident they will be listened to. The table | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
we are publishing today about the quality of reporting culture. A lot | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
of the raw data which allows us to rank the trusts comes from the NHS | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
staff survey, asking staff how valued they think they are, how safe | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
and easy it is to raise concerns. That is why it is a big step | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
forward. I thank my right honourable friend for his statement and taking | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
forward so many of the recommendations made in the public | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
and ministrations select committee report on investigating chemical | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
incidents in the NHS one year ago. Can I thank him particularly for | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
implementing the idea of creating a safe space, which has been a | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
controversial and difficult subject to discuss, some people think this | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
is about hiding things. In fact it is about getting people to speak | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
much more openly and freely than before. Could he say something about | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
how this will be implemented without primary legislation? I would like to | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
thank my right honourable friend, he and I talked to many times, and | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
fought very hard about how we can learn lessons from the air industry. | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
He is one of the people who came to me first, and said if we want to set | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
up an equivalent of the air accident investigation Branch, we need to | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
give the same legal protections people have when they are speaking | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
to that branch in the health care world. That is at the heart of the | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
statement we are making today. The point he makes about safe space is | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
very, very important. This is not about people getting off Scott free | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
if they make a terrible mistake. There is no extra protection for | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
anyone who breaks the law, commit gross negligence, does something | :31:05. | :31:06. | |
utterly irresponsible. Patients still have that protection. What | :31:07. | :31:13. | |
they gain from this is the comfort we will get to the truth much more | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
quickly, learning from mistakes more quickly as a result. The one thing | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
every single patient and very family always says is the most important | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
thing. Not about money, making sure the system learns from what went | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
wrong. We will make sure we construct the safe space concept | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
around this. I don't rule out extending it beyond the | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
investigation is done by the health and safety investigation Branch. In | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
welcoming the statement the minister has said, in Mike Syrians on the | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
General medical Council and the Health Select Committee, the biggest | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
cloud hanging over the culture of non-reporting in the National Health | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
Service is litigation. Last year cost the British taxpayer ?1.1 | :32:03. | :32:09. | |
billion, ?395 million of that in costs for legal fees. Should we be | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
looking at a no-fault liability scheme inside the National Health | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
Service, encouraging cultural change? He's absolutely right to say | :32:19. | :32:28. | |
the effect of the fear of litigation has a very pernicious effect. We can | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
see this across the NHS, a huge drag on costs. We are reforming the way | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
litigation works. We have looked at what happens in other countries, in | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
particular Sweden has had a very gymnastic impact on the way they | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
have reduced maternity and neonatal injury, by creating a no blame | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
culture. I hope today's statement will make a step toward that, but we | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
will consider other changes to the patient process. Our honourable | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
friend for Ipswich and I had a very useful debate today in Westminster | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
Hall about criminal negligence cases. Clearly what the Secretary of | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
State has said this afternoon touches upon it. You may think I'm | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
being obtuse, the statement seems to relate to the internal investigation | :33:21. | :33:30. | |
of poor and mistaken conduct. Not in relation to the resistance or the | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
conduct of clinical negligence cases. I hope I'm wrong about that, | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
it seems to me what we don't want to do, despite the best intentions of | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
the Secretary of State comic identified in the statement, is to | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
make the settlement of just clinical negligence cases more difficult and | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
more expensive, and more scholastic. I read there was a need for the | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
court to give consent for the six lane use of information. Maybe this | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
morning's trails were not accurate and will not reflect what he's | :34:08. | :34:16. | |
intending. I wonder he could extend the internal and external reactions | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
to poor conduct? I shall do my best to my eminent and learned friend. | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
What we want to do is not affect the legal rights of anyone wishing to | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
litigate against the NHS. Because they feel they have been treated | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
badly. Those rights must remain. We will protect those rights. But we | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
want to make it easier to get to the truth of what happened, to learn | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
from the mistakes. The information uncovered by a health care safety | :34:50. | :34:59. | |
investigation branch will not be able to be used without a court | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
order. My belief is having the investigation is done by the branch | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
will speed up, or is quite likely to speed up court processes, because it | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
will establish on all sides in greater likelihood, agreement about | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
what happened. I hate it will be beneficial. If anyone wants to use | :35:19. | :35:25. | |
that evidence in litigation, they would have to regather it. The | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
reason for that, if doctors are worried about anything they say | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
could be used in litigation, they will be hesitant for we are | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
concerned they will be hesitant about speaking openly. That is the | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
defensive culture we're trying to change. I welcome the measures set | :35:43. | :35:51. | |
out in this statement. The Secretary of State will not be surprised to | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
hear I want to focus on safety mental health. The statement feels | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
quite focused on acute hospitals. At the summit, taking place today, will | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
there be a specialist focus on safety mental health? The Secretary | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
of State will remember last February we announced an ambition to achieve | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
zero suicides. He will be aware there has been a significant | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
increase in serious incidents and the reporting of unexpected deaths | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
and suicides. I don't know whether that whole project has stopped, will | :36:24. | :36:31. | |
he meet with me to talk about how we can achieve zero suicides, which has | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
been achieved in the city of the trick in the United States. The same | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
can happen if we have the same focus and ambition. Before the Secretary | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
of State answers that important question. I remind the House we have | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
a lot of business to get through today. Shorter questions and answers | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
would be welcomed by those waiting to speak in other debates. As ever I | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
commend my right friends interest in mental health. Can I reassure him | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
this is very much about what happens in mental health, and the area of | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
learning disabilities. Some of the thoughts here were prompted by what | :37:13. | :37:20. | |
happened at seven health. -- Southern Health, and it is vital we | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
investigate at unexpected deaths in mental health, and the measures we | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
take will go across those areas, and happy to meet and discuss the | :37:30. | :37:38. | |
laudable aim of zero suicides. May I sick do do state for this culture of | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
safety and learning. Can I ask that he looks into increasing the use of | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
exit interviews in the NHS? I have worked in the NHS and other aid | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
organisations, the NHS is the only one where I did not have an exit | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
interview. While we are decreasing in hope to decrease the use of | :37:57. | :38:05. | |
agency staff, it is also an option to do learn from those staff, and | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
learn good and bad practice. I applaud the world Summit on patient | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
safety, I hope you have invited St John eye Hospital from East | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
Jerusalem. If somehow that was forgotten, can you ensure they are | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
invited to the Berlin summit next year. I shall feel very prompted by | :38:25. | :38:34. | |
her question to investigate practice eight St John eye Hospital injuries | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
and. She makes a good point about eye hospitals, I would like to -- | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
about exit interviews, I will take that away. The use of agency staff | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
does inhibit a learning culture, a large percentage of staff only in an | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
organisation on a temporary basis, not part of regular teams, not able | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
to transmit lessons learned, is why we have to deal with the | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
overreliance on agency staff in some parts of the NHS. | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Can I ask the Secretary of State if he is going to list Morecambe Bay in | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
a litany of things to bash the last Government over the head he does so | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
while acknowledging that the situation continued actually for | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
sometime under his Government and is still taking sometime to turn | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
around. Now I want to wholeheartedly welcome his focus on patient safety | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
and his overall approach and pay tribute again to the Morecambe Bay | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
campaigners who have done so much to trigger this improvement. Does he | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
share my concerns over Trusts like Morecambe Bay which are being for a | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
number of reasons, including this issue of safety, being forced to use | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
a large number of agency staff and the difficulty in changing culture | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
when that staffing situation persists? Well, let me commend the | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
staff at Morecambe Bay who have been through a very difficult patch | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
thachlt Trust has exited special measures now. It's an exciting step | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
for the Trust. I think there has been a huge amount of work to make | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
that possible. But I think it feels to me like they've really turned a | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
corner and we should support the staff who have done a great job in | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
that. I think the issue he raises about | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
agency staff is very important. In particular, it is very challenging | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
to get permanent recruitment to more isolated places, not just Morecambe | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
Bay, but across the country, we find this is a problem. But I think | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
sometimes it can be false comfort to get in large numbers of agency | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
staff, not only are they extremely expensive, but they can't offer the | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
continuity of care that is at the heart of a safer culture and so we | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
have to find better ways to support places like Morecambe Bay to further | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
improve their safety. I congratulate my right honourable friend on a | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
range of initiatives, including the independent healthcare safety | :41:11. | :41:12. | |
investigation body but remind him that some of the problems we face | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
are staring him in the face, not less the difficulties in | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
Leicestershire with the am Buckingham Palace service and I | :41:21. | :41:30. | |
would like to thank member for Ipswich to discuss the problems that | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
occur when you have ambulances queuing to discharge patients and | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
his honourable friend talked about bringing in trouble-shooters to | :41:39. | :41:40. | |
resolve problems. Can he enlighten the House as to what he proposes to | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
do with these very evident problems that require little investigation, | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
they require action? I think we do have a system-wide | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
problem in Leicestershire and we are looking into that absolutely | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
urgently and I would like to thank him for raising that issue. He is | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
absolutely right, when we talk about safety and we talk about being open | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
about mistakes that has to apply to the ambulance service as much as any | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
other part of the NHS. Can I also welcome your statement as | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
well to the House today and I welcome in particular your | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
commitment to building a safer 7-day NHS in Northern Ireland we have | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
announced a 1200 new nurses, 300 new professionals, extra money for | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
mental healthcare and extra money to address waiting lists in Northern | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
Ireland to build a safer NHS seven days. In your statement you referred | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
to learning from mistakes and the need for extension of disciplinary | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
procedures, openness to learning and transparency. Can I ask what | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
discussions the Minister has had with my Northern Ireland Assembly | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
Minister Simon Hamilton in relation to ensuring this system can be | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
replicated in Northern Ireland and other regional Assemblies and | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
administrations across the whole of the UK of Great Britain and Northern | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
Ireland? Well, my colleague, the hospitals Minister is going to have | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
those discussions with the northern I shall health Minister. But he is | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
right, if we are going to have a learning culture -- Northern Irish. | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
It needs to be across the UK, not just within England and that's why I | :43:15. | :43:16. | |
welcome the discussions with the Scottish NHS and the Welsh NHS. | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
There are things we can learn from each other and we should be | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
open-minded in doing so. We must all strive to improve safety and quality | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
in the NHS. But the health foundation report that the Secretary | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
of State referred to quoted 40% of patients saying there were too few | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
nurses to care for them. This is three years after the Francis | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
Report. If the Government says that the NHS must learn more, what is the | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
Government doing to learn from the inquiries that have been held? Well, | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
quite a lot, for example, increasing the number of nurses by more than | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
10,000 since then. So that we can make sure that we don't have a | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
problem with safety on our wards by more than 10,000 since the Francis | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
Report was published. Because we recognise that it's incredibly | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
important not to have short-staffed wards and we are making more reforms | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
this parliament to make sure that we can recruit even more nurses and | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
that will be something that I think will be good to have some support | :44:19. | :44:26. | |
from Labour for. Can I congratulate my right honourable friend for his | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
statement although I hope that it draws from experience from other | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
healthcare economies as well as from the aerospace sector. When things go | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
wrong it's right that the NHS is frank about it and where necessary | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
compensates people for what may be long-term management issues. | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
However, currently, negligence settlements are based upon provision | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
in the private sector and do not anticipate necessarily that people | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
will be treated and managed in the NHS which means that the service | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
effectively pays twice for mistakes. As he seeks to close the Simon | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
Stevens spending gap that's something perhaps he might wish to | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
reflect on. I would be grateful if he could say to what extent he | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
thinks excessive negligence claims are influenced by the pervase way in | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
which they're currently calculated? I think there are things that | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
someone independently looking at our current system might say are | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
difficult to understand. One of them is the point that he makes. Another | :45:28. | :45:35. | |
is the point that we tend to give bigger awards to wealthier families | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
because we take into account the family income when we make these | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
awards, some of the time. So I think this is an area that we are looking | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
at. The only thing I would say is that we are cautious about reducing | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
the legal rights of patients to secure a fair settlement when | :45:56. | :45:57. | |
something has gone wrong because I think in the end this is about doing | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
the right thing for patients and I think the most effective way, which | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
I know he would agree with, if we want to reduce these large | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
litigation bills is to stop the harm happening in the first place and | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
that's what today is all about. If anybody should be learning from | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
the mistakes in the health service, it should be the Secretary of State | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
for health. I have been down to the picket line today as I have on every | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
single occasion. I can tell him that it's hardening. There are more | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
people on that picket line today at St Thomas than I have seen in all | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
the months in this strike began. I am a bit of an expert on picket | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
lines. I know what it's like. Quite frankly, the biggest mistake he's | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
made is to think he can get away with imposing a seven-day week on | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
the hospital doctors and everybody else that works in the health | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
service because he wants to avoid proper premium payments, when I | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
worked in the coal mines, miners got double pay on Sundays. They got | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
time-and-a-half all day Saturday. It's time he recognised, not just | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
hospital doctors, but nurses, radiologists and all the others that | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
would have to work a seven-day week, should all be paid the proper money, | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
otherwise pack the job in and then he will be doing a service to the | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
whole of the National Health Service. So, the proposals that we | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
are making for doctors will see them receiving higher premium rates than | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
lower paid nurses, higher premium rates than lower paid paramedics, | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
higher premium rates than lower paid healthcare assistants. I thought he | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
was someone who campaigned for the lower paid. Let me say to him, the | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
day that I stop this job will be the day I stop doing the right thing for | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
patients and he has constituents who need a seven-day NHS. I have | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
constituents who need a seven-day NHS. This Government will be there | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
for those constituents and will do the right thing. | :48:05. | :48:15. | |
Order! Thank you. Can I congratulate the Secretary of State on his | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
statement this afternoon and welcome the culture change he is putting | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
through in the NHS. Because my experience of working in the NHS on | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
a number of - under under a number of governments is that where | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
mistakes happen it was always a scapegoat was identified and it was | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
thought the problem was dealt with. That's why people were reluctant to | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
report problems. Often it's not one individual. It's a system of | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
failure. We need to learn from that. I very much welcome the Secretary of | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
State's comments on that. What relatives and patients have said to | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
me, they don't just want the problem identified, they want to make sure | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
it never happens again which is exactly what the Secretary of State | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
has said. Can I also comment on what the Shadow Secretary of State, I | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
chaired a public health - primary care seminar this morning with GPs, | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
nurses, doctors and pharmacists... I am sure the honourable ladiy will | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
quickly come to her question, we are going to run out of time. I will be | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
very quick. They are fed up of the NHS being talked down by members of | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
the - there was a plea to showcase the good work that's happening in | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
our NHS today. Thank you. It's so good to have someone with nursing | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
experience in this House. She makes an important contribution which I | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
hope she will make for many years to come because of her experience. She | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
knows what it's like on the frontline and why it's important to | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
get this culture change. She also knows how important it is not to run | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
down the NHS which is doing extremely well. Last week I received | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
an e-mail which was frankly heart-breaking. My constituent's | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
84-year-old father, a proud and dignified man was admitted to | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
hospital and had to wait with stroke symptoms to are 14 hours with a bed. | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
She found him in bed wearing only clothes on his top half, he needed | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
the toilet... Order. The honourable lady will always quickly come to her | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
question I am sure. This was no dignified way to treat this man. | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
Will the Secretary of State agree to have an urgent investigation into | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
safe staffing levels because the nursing staff told her they didn't | :50:26. | :50:27. | |
have time to fulfil his basic nursing needs? | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
I am more than happy to look into that case and that is exactly the | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
kind of case that we are trying to stop with the measures that we are | :50:37. | :50:46. | |
putting forward today. Can I congratulate my right honourable | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
friend for again making sure it's patient healthcare andout comes that | :50:50. | :50:51. | |
are at the forefront of his thinking and that of the professional health | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
service who do such a brave job and can sometimes be caught in the | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
crossfire. Does he agree that comments from people on the | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
frontline protecting the doctors strike, like this, who started a | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
Facebook saying I hate the Conservatives... I will leave it | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
there, I don't want to offend you. They don't care about healthcare, | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
they're interested in more political gain. This I am afraid is the | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
problem with some elements in the BMA, they're putting politics ahead | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
of patients. We have heard today it's the problem in the Labour | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Party, as well. Thank you. Action on the Review is | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
very much welcome. There is so many cases I could cite, when a junior | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
doctor reported bullying, black-listing and now can only work | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
as a locum, when he wrote to the Secretary of State, the Secretary of | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
State refused to engage, listen and learn from his experience. Learning | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
cultures have to start at the top with you, Secretary of State. Will | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
the Secretary of State now set out how he is going to address | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
retrospective cases of whistle-blowing where people have | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
been subject to discrimination? I hope that she's not quoting | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
selectively from my reply to the person concerned. When people do | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
raise issues of patient safety with me I usually refer them to the CQC | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
who are able to do a proper reply and I would be surprised if I didn't | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
do that in this particular case. What I would say about retrospective | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
cases is that they are particularly difficult, much as we want to help, | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
because it is very difficult constitutionally to unpick the | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
decisions made by courts. What we are trying to do is to separate | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
employment grievances from safety grievances and make that the way we | :52:47. | :52:53. | |
solve these difficult situations. I think like many MPs I have come | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
across cases where this approach would help enormously and I thank | :52:57. | :52:58. | |
the Secretary of State for his statement today. The same CQC report | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
that praised staff and clinicians at the Worcestershire acute Trust for | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
their good and outstanding care raised concerns about the management | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
and about safety at the hospital's partly as a result of too many | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
interim managers and a lack of ability to address and learn from | :53:16. | :53:17. | |
mistakes that have been made. Can I urge the Secretary of State to do | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
everything in his power and work with all the relevant organisations | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
to put the long-term permanent management in place at that Trust so | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
we can take things forward and make patients safer? He speaks wisely. | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
One thing That's Britain been a mistake of -- one thing that's been | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
a mistake of successive governments han been a short-termist approach to | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
NHS managers where we ourselves have looked for a scapegoat when | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
something has gone wrong and a target missed or whatever, and not | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
backed people making long-term transformations and that's something | :53:51. | :53:51. | |
that we need to think about hard. But I thank the Secretary of State | :53:52. | :54:02. | |
for his statement and the work he's done and also paid tribute to those | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
who have campaigned to bring patient safety to the forefront, many from | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
tragic experiences they've had. What work is being done to make sure that | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
medical schools and nursing schools have patient safety on the | :54:17. | :54:24. | |
curriculum? We have looked at the curriculum very carefully and the | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
thing we want to do is personally make sure people understand their | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
responsibilities to speak out if they see mistakes and things going | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
wrong, but also to help people understand that this might not be | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
the prevailing culture in the hospital they go to and that we are | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
looking to a new generation of doctors and nurses to help change | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
this culture for the better. I'd also like to welcome my right | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
honourable friend's statement today. He will be aware of the tragic death | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
of three-year-old Johnny at Stafford Hospital, having met his parents, | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
they have been looking for answers to their questions for some time. | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
Can he confirmed that this do health care safety investigation Branch has | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
announced today it will put families like Johnny's, give them the | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
opportunity to get the answers they have been looking for? I would like | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
to thank her for her support for Johnny's parents, this is a very sad | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
case, but the independent investigator in that case spoke | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
about the closed culture he encountered at two different trusts | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
and that is a very good example of the change in culture we need. I | :55:39. | :55:44. | |
have worked with them and I hope we can secure a second inquest on his | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
death so we can get to the truth eventually. It will be too late, but | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
we want to get there eventually. Jason McCartney. As the Secretary of | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
State is aware, my local sea GC starts a consultation next Wednesday | :56:00. | :56:08. | |
on proposals to downgrade A, does he agree that patient safety must be | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
the priority in the sessions and not the ruinous PFI deal signed at | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
Halifax hospital in 1998 which is the backdrop to these appalling | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
plans? No one fights harder for his constituents on health care matters | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
than he does and I commend him for that. The process will be led by | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
clinicians but he is right, patient safety must be of paramount | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
importance. We have one of the worst still birth rates in the developed | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
world, and everyone is a tragedy, and we must do all we can to avoid | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
those, especially when half are preventable. As the co-chair of the | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
new group on baby loss, would he agree with me that it is only by | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
learning the lessons on everything that we can get the number down by | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
20% at the end of the Parliament and by half the year after? He is | :57:09. | :57:14. | |
absolutely right and other like to thank him for his work in this area. | :57:15. | :57:24. | |
Maternity in general, stillbirths, natal deaths, natal injuries, this | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
is the area where I hope we make the most rapid early progress in | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
developing this new learning culture because it seems there is so much to | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
be gained. We can be the best in the world, but the truth is we are a | :57:38. | :57:39. | |
long way down the international league tables in this area and none | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
of us want that for the NHS and there is real commitment to turn | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
that around. The prize for perseverance and patience goes to Mr | :57:50. | :57:57. | |
Mark Spencer. I'm grateful, even if my knees are not. Can I say to the | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
Secretary of State, congratulate him on protecting a space for doctors to | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
be honest and upfront when things go wrong and also to strike the balance | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
so relatives and people who suffer wrong swim the NHS get to the bottom | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
of what went wrong and why it won't happen again in future -- wrong is | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
in the air chess. I would like to thank him. That is the heart of what | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
we want to do and he has been very closely involved in the improvements | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
we want to make in his local trust. If his knees are in pain, I can | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
recommend a very good GP surgery in his constituency that he showed me | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
in the last election campaign. Order. Point of order. Dot. Fox. I | :58:43. | :58:52. | |
wonder if you can help clarify what outstanding issue from today's | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
urgent question. In the head of government statement which was | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
issued in the name of our Prime Minister, it says very clearly it is | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
to accelerate the implementation of the Visa liberalisation road map | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
with all member states with a view to lifting the Visa requirements for | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
Turkish citizens by at the latest the end of 2016, but this does not | :59:17. | :59:24. | |
apply to the United Kingdom. However, it cannot apply to all | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
states and not the United Kingdom, so one of the versions must be | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
incorrect. I wonder if we might get a written verification for the | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
government as to which of these events in question is the truth. The | :59:35. | :59:43. | |
House knows that I'm not responsible for the content of the statement | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
made earlier today by the Minister. The chair is responsible for making | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
sure that members on the backbenches have satisfactory answers and full | :59:56. | :00:02. | |
answers from ministers and I'm quite certain that those on the Treasury | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
bench will have taken note of what the right honourable gentleman has | :00:07. | :00:14. | |
said and will act accordingly. Presentation of Bill, now. | :00:15. | :00:22. | |
Regulation of sale and ownership bill. 22nd of April, 2016. Order. We | :00:23. | :00:37. | |
now come to the ten minute rule motion. Les Savill Roberts. I beg to | :00:38. | :00:46. | |
move that leave the given to bring in a bill to consolidate offences | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
regarding the misuse of technical devices, for the purposes of | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
committing and preparing to commit or aiding and abetting a crime and | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
the disposal of proceeds of crime, to make provision, reflecting | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
technological advancements including the training of criminal justice | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
personnel, to establish advice and guidance to the digital services | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
industries, aimed at reducing the misuse of digital technologies are | :01:17. | :01:18. | |
criminal purposes and for connected purposes. There has been | :01:19. | :01:25. | |
unprecedented rise in crime assisted by digital technology in the last | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
decade. Just as so many of us spend so many of our waking hours in | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
cyberspace, so has organised crime found new territory in which to | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
operate, abusers have found new ways to torment their victims, often | :01:38. | :01:43. | |
under the veil of anonymity. Charities, agencies and police | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
involved with tackling, stalking and harassment, hate crimes and abuse, | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
are only too aware that criminals and abusers are using technology to | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
target victims. The challenge is to identify what is criminal behaviour | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
and to respond appropriately. Victims of cyber abuse often do not | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
turn to the police, either because they are not aware that the fence is | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
being committed or because they do not believe the police will act. -- | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
that the fence. Half of all crimes reported to front line officers have | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
a cyber element. Police experts state as many as 7 million online | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
fraud is a year and 3 million other online crimes. Very many of these go | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
unreported. The police lead on the fight against digital crime, and the | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
Chief Constable of Essex warns the level of abuse taking place on the | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
internet are now at previously unexpected levels and that the | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
police are at risk of being swamped. That is his word. Sometimes police | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
response to victims complaints is ambiguous, yet if these are crimes, | :02:49. | :02:59. | |
and they are, and a -- an on ambiguous response is not | :03:00. | :03:08. | |
sufficient. What would flag up aggressive words leading to violent | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
action in the physical world? What, as a society, do we believe should | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
be treated as criminal behaviour and what is Meli the unfortunate | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
reflection of individual's private thoughts laid out for the world to | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
retweet at leisure? And how did the police deal with all this? The | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
police, many of home, especially senior police officers, were trained | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
to deal with 20th century crimes and they now find themselves in the 21st | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
century admits to a maelstrom of Mass information and breakneck | :03:44. | :03:45. | |
technological change -- many of whom. The bobby on his bicycle, out | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
on the internet highway, policing the dark net with a flashlight and | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
an Alsatian. The purpose of this bill is to call on a review of | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
legislation and to consolidate power is into a single bill. At present | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
prosecution can be initiated with a confusing array of legislation and I | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
thank Harry Fletcher of the digital trust for his work on this bill. | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
This has that that 30 relevant acts, including one from the 19th century. | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
The existing provision is inadequate, and this acts as a | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
hindrance, allowing abuse to continue unchecked. It is important | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
to understand, the threshold set for the prosecution of hate crimes is | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
extremely high, this is understandable, and yet the way in | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
which this threshold is interpreted varies from police force to police | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
force and many incidents are not prosecuted. Consolidating this and | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
other statutes will bring much-needed clarity. The requirement | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
for additional police training will address the situation when only 7500 | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
police officers out of a total of 100,000 in England and Wales are | :05:06. | :05:07. | |
trained to investigate digital crime. The bill updates laws and it | :05:08. | :05:15. | |
becomes a clear offence to locate and listen to and watch individuals | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
by means of digital technology without reason and it will be | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
illegal to install spy cams that reason and becomes an offence to | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
make multiple images of a person unless that is in the public | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
interest. It becomes an offence to order goods and services for a | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
person if it causes distress and anxiety. Posting images without the | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
subject's permission and the posting of messages which are | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
discriminatory, threatening, cause distress or anxiety, Wilbur, fences. | :05:44. | :05:58. | |
It -- will become offences. We will conduct impact assessments for | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
customers come at a block offensive social media postings, inciting | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
violence and to cooperate and informed the police in the event of | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
wrongdoing. I'm aware that this is something of a cliche, it is | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
difficult to avoid stating the obvious fact, this is a piece of | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
legislation which time has come. It is evidence from the cross-party | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
support that parliamentarians across the House feel that legislation | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
relating to cybercrime and cyber abuse must be fit for purpose. And | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
that the course is available at the moment is not facilitate the work of | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
police and prosecutors. This ready response is clear from my own | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
experience. MPs have had online threats and we have people reporting | :06:45. | :06:52. | |
abuse and bullying at our -- in our constituencies. Teaching unions are | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
concerned that the beast their members face. The campaigning | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
organisation kick it out works with football fans and they deal with | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
abuse relating to race and sexuality, 42% of incidents they | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
dealt with them on social media. I had a description of how one person | :07:19. | :07:31. | |
was targeted through gaming. She had assumed that gaming was going to be | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
where they would meet other children. We should not | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
underestimate what is at stake, digital crime can ruin lives, and on | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
the 26th of a Womens Aid hosted a conference under the title he is | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
watching you, and the conference focused on revenge pornography and | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
the many ways in which perpetrators of domestic violence can further | :07:54. | :07:55. | |
their abuse by tormenting their victims over the internet. As the | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
CEO of Womens Aid said, there is not a real world and a digital world, we | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
exist online in a real way. It is often said that social media makes | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
the world seems smaller, but for victims of online abuse and | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
harassment it can make a film like the world is closing in on them, | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
like there is no escape. -- can make it feel. For victims of domestic | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
violence, online abuse can be overwhelming, the Womens Aid survey | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
of over 700 survivors of online abuse found that in 85% of cases the | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
online abuse was part of a wider pattern of abuse which occurred on | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
the internet and also in real life. Perpetrators will use any means | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
necessary to control and intimidate their victims. The danger is very | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
real. One third of online threats of violence are then carried out. Abuse | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
tends to escalate after a relationship ends which means | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
victims are at an even greater danger once the perpetrator in -- | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
inbox on online abuse. The threats have got to be taken seriously, do | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
we don't, more people will have their lives destroyed. -- if we | :09:09. | :09:10. | |
don't. Some changes already afoot. Last week the CPS announced new | :09:11. | :09:20. | |
guidelines for prosecutors of certain elements of social media | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
abuse. A consultation has been launched about these guidelines | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
which advised lawyers to prosecute criminals who use fake online | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
aliases to harass victims. The guidelines acknowledge that such | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
abusers can pose as victims online in order to damage reputations. They | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
offer guidance on how to interpret existing laws, particularly in light | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
of newer offences such as coercive control and revenge pornography. | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
is, of course, welcome to see change starting to take root. But these | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
guidelines are not a panacea. They underline the sheer number of | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
statues that can be used by prosecutors. I believe that my bill | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
would go a long way towards tackling this problem and that it will send a | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
clear signal to perpetrators and victims alike that as a society we | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
take these crimes seriously. I commend the bill to this House. | :10:14. | :10:20. | |
The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
bill. As many of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary no. I think the | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill? Mr Graham Allen, | :10:32. | :10:42. | |
Sir David Amos, Sir Edward Garnier, MrsSheryl Gillan, MrDavid Lammey, | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Dame Lawton, miss Margaret Ritchie, Mr Barry Sheerman, Hall Williams, | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
coresy Wilson, Dr Sarah wools ston and myself, MrSpeaker. | :10:55. | :11:08. | |
Criminal offences, misuse of digital technologies and services | :11:09. | :11:35. | |
consultation bill. Second reading what day? 11th March, MrSpeaker. The | :11:36. | :11:47. | |
11th March. Thank you. Order. Point of order, MrSpeaker. Point of | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
order, Sir Edward league. It's obvious that this next item of | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
business is going to be enormously popular with people trying to speak. | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
Indeed there is great public interest. I thought you would be | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
interested to know on the procedure committee we are doing an inquiry | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
now about whether to give you more power to extend debates. It seems | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
ridiculous that this is entirely in the control of the Government and | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
for instance on Monday we left early on a second reading while today many | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
honourable members will either not be able to speak or give short | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
speeches. I thought you would like to know that, Mr Speaker. Well, it's | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
always useful to have a bit of information. I greatly look forward | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
to the result of the deliberations of the procedure committee of which | :12:33. | :12:40. | |
I think the honourable gentleman is himself a distinguished ornament. If | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
there are no further points of order, we shall now proceed. As I | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
inform the House yesterday, my provisional certificate based on | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
changes made in committee and expected Government amendments | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
tabled for report stage is available in the vote office and on the bills | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
before parliament website. At the end of the report stage on a bill I | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
am required to consider the bill as amended on report for certification. | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
At that point later today I will issue my final certificate. Order. | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Enterprise | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
bill Lords, as amended in the committee to be further considered. | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
Thank you. Order. We begin with amendment one with which it will be | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
convenient to consider amendment 19 and Government amendments two, 13 | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
and 14, to move amendment one I call MrDavid Burrows. I beg to move | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
amendment one in my name and that of 24 of my honourable and right | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
honourable friends as well as honourable members from across the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
House, I think I counted seven different parties who have signed up | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
to my amendment. I couldn't quite convince one party, the Ukip party, | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
to unite behind my amendment, I may consider to persuade him if he | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
attends the debate. Nevertheless, there is a significant cross-party | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
support for this amendment which in many ways I wouldn't wish to be | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
here, it's sorry that we are here having to deal with this issue. I | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
want to explain shortly why it is within some sorrow. Not least around | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
procedure that I don't think has been followed through but the issue | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
around Sunday trading. Members will remember previous debates, some | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
years ago, the 90s or the 80s, that took considerable time and attention | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
of this House. Indeed, the last time it came before this House I think | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
some two years of debate in relation to get to the particular compromise | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
that we reached. We have three hours today to be able to either unpick | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
that settlement or as my amendment seeks to do to delete the | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
Government's attempt in which to do so. But let's get back to what this | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
bill is about. Let's see how it fits in to Sunday trading into the | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
intention of the bill. Because when I came to this House the clear aims | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
of the bill were follows, to make sure that Britain is the best place | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
in Europe to start and grow a business, and that people who work | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
hard have the opportunity to succeed. Secondly, to cut red tape | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
for businesses, encourage investments and skills and make it | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
easier for small firms to resolve payment disputes by setting up a | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
small business commissioner. And so say all of us, certainly so say all | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
on the Government benches, all of us in relation to what is an important | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
bill and one in which I support. Up to the point of its inclusion of | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
this Sunday trading bill. Yes. I am most grateful to him for giving way. | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
Could he tell us, though, why he is opposed to what the Government are | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
seeking to do which as I understand it is permissive and not mandateory? | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
Perhaps if my friend is patient, this is the purpose of my speech, is | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
to explain the reasons why I do oppose the Government. But we need | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
to look at where the Government is taking us, they're taking us through | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
that per - that approach but we need to recognise it's based upon a | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
premise and that's a premise we need to look at, the premise is that it | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
is good for small businesses, it is good for families, it is good for | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
workers, to deregulate Sunday trading because it's a one-way... | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
Local authorities... The one-way valve is deregulation. There are on | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
these benches very much localists around us who are pure localists who | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
would perhaps want to see that freedom of being a local one where | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
you can restrict or deregulate. The Government have sought to make the | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
case, I want to look at that case how it's been approached, the | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
consultation, the process, and make the case this is good and good in | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
this bill for small businesses of which I do take objection. I thank | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
my honourable friend for his speech and for his strong leadership on | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
this issue. Does he agree with me that the Government would be more | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
compelling in making their case had they abided by the undertakingingses | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
twice by the Minister to publish what we are led to believe is sa | :17:18. | :17:23. | |
positive and favourable impact assessment on these proposals which | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
they have so far not done? Yes, the position is and I will come to this, | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
we have the impact assessment has been published, it's been published | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
today. That impact has been published. It's important because we | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
have already had some scrutiny of this bill within committee stage. | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
This was introduced at committee stage. It wasn't in the bill at | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
second reading because it didn't start in this place t started in the | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
House of Lords. It's been through all the stages in the House of Lords | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
without any scrutiny of this Sunday trading measure. Then following the | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
consultation we then had the promise of publication of the impact | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
assessment as you would expect from any mesh dwrur, not least | :18:10. | :18:11. | |
particularly important measure such as this one that has controversy. We | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
have today published the impact assessments which include today | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
several paragraphs about the family test which I amongst others have | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
been asking for for sometime, back in October I asked that question | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
when will that family impact test be published? It was said it's going to | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
be personed before the committee stage. I then asked, in February I | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
asked again, when will that be published? It will be published | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
alongside, in fact, alongside before the Government's consultation, it | :18:42. | :18:44. | |
didn't happen. Then it was going to be published shortly. Now we have | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
had it published today. I don't think that's acceptable. I am very | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way and pay tribute to | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
him for his consistency on this subject. He stood for election in | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
May and he will have known well there were people on his side of the | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
House that would have liked to bring forward a measure like that and he | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
must have been reassured that it wasn't in the Conservative Party | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
party. So, can he say how he feels as a Democrat he would be able to | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
face his constituents if he had chosen to vote for this Government | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
measure, given that his views are well-known and the Government hadn't | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
put this in their manifesto? My professional trade is a lawyer and I | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
think that's a leading question coming from the honourable member! | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
It wasn't in the manifesto. But it wasn't just not in our manifesto, it | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
also was confirmed by the Prime Minister on 20th April, 2015, right | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
in the middle of the campaign, he wrote indeed to the Keep Sunday | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
Special campaign. We have no current plans to relax Sunday trading laws, | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
we believe that the current system provides a reasonable balance | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
between those who wish to see more opportunity to shop in large stores | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
on a Sunday, and those who would like to see further restrictions. | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
That pretty much sums up my position. That's my position which I | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
have maintained and been consistent on like the Prime Minister was back | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
in April. Thank you for giving way. I hope the honourable friend knows I | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
respect him enormously and on campaigns on which I work with him. | :20:17. | :20:23. | |
However, doesn't he agree with me that actually we should trust our | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
constituents to make up their own minds? In life we all have to find | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
our own balance. We are all capable of deciding whether we work or shop | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
on a Sunday. It isn't actually the most complicated decision that our | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
constituents will make in their lives. Wouldn't my honourable friend | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
just trust his constituents to make wise decisions for them and their | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
families? I am grateful to my honourable friend and I saw that but | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
coming... LAUGHTER | :21:04. | :21:05. | |
Look, we have a job to do in parliament. We don't just devolve | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
every decision out to our constituents. In we listen to our | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
constituents, not sure if he has looked at his mail bag, I have many | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
shop workers telling me and faith groups and others saying why are we | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
doing this? Why are we trying to unpick something which is fairly | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
settled? It's not perfect, but why are we doing that? That's me | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
listening to my constituents. Also, we have important principles as | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
well. There is a complex arrangement on Sunday trading. It's a duty on us | :21:34. | :21:38. | |
to look at it carefully, to consult widely, and also to scrutinise it | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
fairly. None of those things have happened to the regard that did | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
happen in the 90s and 80s. It shouldn't surprise us that we are in | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
the situation now where there is a lot of concern, a lot of cross-party | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
concern. I would be with my honourable friend to the extent that | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
if it was a wholly devolving measure, but it's not. It's based on | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
a principle that we would have to sign up to. Everyone who goes | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
against my amendment today would have to sign up to - would have to | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
agree with the premise and we are making this decision here in | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
parliament, that we think it is good for businesses, it is good for | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
families, it is good for workers to deIRAing late. You have to make that | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
decision. -- to to deregulate. You have to make that decision. That's | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
the premise of the case today. I will give way, yes, I will give way | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
to my neighbour. Can I thank my neighbour, the | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
honourable member and I am pleased to be a signatory to his amendment | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
and support him here and I am sure he knows, 49% of retail workers | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
surveyed are parents or carers and their Sunday is special to them. In | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
relation to what is said about trusting constituents and they can | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
make their own decision to work, I am sure my neighbour knows that even | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
in workplaces with trade union reps to support members, many staff are | :22:59. | :23:04. | |
pressured into not using the Sunday opt-out and, in fact, something like | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
a third of workers, shop workers, are pressured into working Sundayses | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
are having working hours cut. I am grateful. I have mentioned therefore | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
there is an alliance gathered in relation to the amendment, she has | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
made a good point. We may well have a choice, we may be able to make a | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
choice to g to Church or shop or spend time with families and it's | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
those people we need to be a voice for, those who don't have the | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
choice, whether it's caring for responsibilities, or working | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
responsibilities, we need to be very careful before we impose further | :23:44. | :23:45. | |
requirements and obligations on them and it's important. That's why it's | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
important not least when we have a family impact test. We take | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
seriously the impact on families as the amendment said. I give way. | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
There is another facet to this, on the one hand the government says it | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
is trying to save the high streets, but this bill would threaten the | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
supermarkets and therefore have an effect on the high streets, and | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
there are ways for employees to force workers to work on a Sunday | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
for extra hours, we know the tricks. Yes, I will come onto that, the case | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
has been made by the government, that it will support the high Street | :24:30. | :24:31. | |
and the challenges of online shopping. Going back to the | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
campaigns, friends and others, when they were campaigning, my | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
constituency is full of high streets, and I don't remember one, | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
in fact there was anyone large outlet, Asda, which was mentioning | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
this, and the rest, did not mention... It was about looking | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
after the high street, they wanted to sort out business rates and car | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
park in, things like that. I could look at the government review, the | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
proper review they had, that took place to look at how we can | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
regenerate the high Street, how can it be increased, this was a | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
government review. If you go through the review, you are not seeing a | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
case being made by that substantial review, one way of regenerating the | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
high street is by directive 80 the hours for the little shops -- | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
deregulating the hours. Isn't it also misleading of the government to | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
describe this as a devolutionary measure? The moment that one | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
particular Council adopts these powers, every other neighbouring | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
council will be forced to follow suit, is that not the case? Was that | :25:49. | :26:00. | |
your point as well? Carry on. Thank you for allowing that intervention. | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
It follows on from that point, before Christmas I was a member of | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
the greater Manchester combined authority where government were | :26:10. | :26:11. | |
consulting on the devolution of Sunday trading powers with that body | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
and categorically it was not asked for and requested, it was forced on | :26:19. | :26:24. | |
them. It could be a race to the bottom in terms of these powers, but | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
which is not just simply see this as something we can leave to local | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
authorities, there's a case the government is making that is good | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
for high streets come and go to businesses and shop workers. The | :26:37. | :26:47. | |
reality is, the government has be held to account for making the case | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
for the devolving of the hours, and the reality is, looking at the | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
substance of the case, it is not meet what I think is a high | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
threshold that we should and pick the complex Sunday trading laws. It | :27:02. | :27:10. | |
is very rare for him to be in any sort of unholy alliance, as we know. | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
I'm very much of the view, the compromise made 30 years has worked | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
fairly well, but does he not recognise that there is no sense of | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
imposition? As my friend wheelchair East pointed out, this is a | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
-- as my friend from Yorkshire East pointed out, this is a permissive | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
approach, and there would be a demand, at high tourist times, that | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
the local authorities should give permission, but it would be up to | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
the local authority to manage that and I think this is a good | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
compromise given the changes that have taken place in the last 30 | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
years not least with the internet, in shopping patterns. I hear your | :27:54. | :28:01. | |
point. I have been open to the debate, and the case is made from | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
shops around the West End, and Knightsbridge, places like Harrods, | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
I can see them making that case, but the government aren't just resting | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
on that. I do not think the economic case is strong enough. There's other | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
research Oxford economics will say that you have got to look more | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
widely at the economic impact, and not just see the benefits for the | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
larger businesses. We don't just listen to big business, we are | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
concerned about the shop workers and the small businesses and the impact | :28:40. | :28:42. | |
on them should not be underestimated. That is important. | :28:43. | :28:51. | |
Yes, new voice. Well, not that new. Can we knock on the head the idea | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
about permission, the issue is not that there is permission, the issue | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
is who is exercising that permission? The permission is being | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
exercised by local authorities and the individual shop workers are | :29:07. | :29:16. | |
people that want to run their business seven days a week, do they | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
have that permission, as well? We need to look at the impact beyond | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
the council 's Abbey and whether they want to or not -- and whether | :29:26. | :29:34. | |
they want. We should look at what businesses and shop workers want, | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
and in terms of the imposition, I have looked at a recent survey, | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
10,000 shop workers, 90% do not want to work more on Sunday and the | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
current six-hour restriction is important to them because they say | :29:47. | :29:48. | |
that Sunday evenings are there only guaranteed family time, especially | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
if they have children or partners who work weekdays. Most staff are | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
able to work on a Sunday rotor. It's the imposition on the shop workers | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
and businesses that we have also got to look at. He is making a very good | :30:06. | :30:13. | |
introduction with his items, but I understand talking about larger | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
stores that some chief executives are now expressing their concerns to | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
the Prime Minister about this, Sainsbury's, Jon Lewis, and | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
Sainsbury's have said, in line with the survey you have spoken about, | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
they have questioned whether there's an for Sunday working, and quite | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
rightly. Members opposite should not assume that the opt out means | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
anything because most retail staff say it's impossible to use the opt | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
out, because they find ways to make you suffer if you try to opt out of | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
Sunday working. It is true. You should not cast all the same | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
retailers with the same brush, Tesco's have also expressed concern, | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
and some no doubt have a commercial interest. What they share is a | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
concern that the devolutionary approach by the government is not so | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
practical for these larger as Mrs and distribution centres -- for | :31:07. | :31:14. | |
these larger businesses. Going back to the bill, it was about cutting | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
down on red tape and regulation, and for them it would be in the opposite | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
direction. When I get into my speech I will go into the issue of the | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
protections fought shop workers, and before I do, I will hear from my | :31:26. | :31:32. | |
near neighbour. I'm very grateful. As my neighbour, you will remember | :31:33. | :31:41. | |
in 2011 walking down high streets like mine after the riots and indeed | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
parts of Enfield town and there was not one local shopkeeper who had | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
been ransacked who said that if you do this, if you devolve power in | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
this way, and allow big retailers to open up even longer, it will help my | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
business. Those businesses were struggling anyway, and this sort of | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
act could only make it worse. Is he also concerned with the definition | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
of tourist? What is a tourist? I tourist will I go to Enfield town to | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
shop? -- am I tourist. I leave my friend to make the case in relation | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
to her amendment, but I want to get into some more of the substance, but | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
it is around process first of all. This is a controversial moment. No | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
one who has been around for a while and has listen to people's concerns | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
would deny this is a controversial matter. It divides opinions in this | :32:44. | :32:54. | |
House. I will make progress. What I understand in government | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
consultation guidance, when there is a controversial matter, the | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
consultation period would be allocated a 12 week period, but this | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
consultation that has led to where we are now was just six weeks, and | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
not just that, it happened in the summer holidays, the first week of | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
August, and for two weeks, this important measure ran, why did that | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
happen? Was there an immediate rush to get this onto the statute book? | :33:23. | :33:31. | |
It did manage to generate 7000 responses which is quite | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
extraordinary, given the time limit. We have this controversial measure, | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
and with that amount of response, we have got to raise the questions, why | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
were we not able to give it the scrutiny it deserved in both houses? | :33:48. | :33:53. | |
Why have we tacked it onto the citizens devolution bill, and now | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
tacked onto the enterprise Bill, having already been through the | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
Lords? Someone might say that limits the scrutiny of an important | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
measure, but this is not just my concerns. The government made the | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
point very clearly, when we last have the opportunity to give the | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
scrutiny, in the London Olympics and Paralympics Bill, that got scrutiny | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
from both sides in 2012 and the Minister underlined the temporary | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
nature of those changes and there were assurances from the government | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
that this was not a precursor to a further deregulation move. There was | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
an assurance from him, there would be Parliamentary debate if there was | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
ever another Sunday trading legislative proposal. But we haven't | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
got that. That is a promise which has not been capped. That is to the | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
detriment of everyone, to be able to come to consideration of whether | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
tourist zones or pilot areas, all these things need proper scrutiny | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
and proper time. Did you want to make your point? I wanted to invite | :35:04. | :35:14. | |
my friend to agree with me in saying this is about assisting town centre | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
retail, 53% of local authority Chief executives said they would use the | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
new dispensation of liberalisation to boost out shopping centres, and | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
that can't be what many members would wish to happen. That is light, | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
and there are not on facts which are careful attention. -- that is right, | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
and there are no contracts. They fail to tell us what proportion | :35:37. | :35:52. | |
of responses to the consultation were actually in favour, they say | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
the organisations and local authorities are in favour, but what | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
about individual responses? We can all do this individually, we all | :36:03. | :36:10. | |
have a voice, it does not need to just be the big culprits. -- | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
culprits. This consultation was published, the | :36:15. | :36:27. | |
question was, were you in favour or not question not surely that should | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
be published how many were in favour? The question was this, | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
should local areas have the power to extend trading hours on Sunday? It | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
would be useful to note how many people in the consultation were | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
actually individually in favour of that or not. This is the answer we | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
had from the Minister, which is one of the most extraordinary answers | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
I've ever seen in my ten years. The Department does not hold data from | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
this consultation, broken down by specific question, as a large | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
proportion of respondents chose to respond in their own words. | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
I presume they were English and there was not a problem with | :37:10. | :37:19. | |
translation. Rather than address the consultation question, it did not | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
indicate the type of organisation they represented, and that is | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
unacceptable. There should be a proper accountable process that | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
enables us to judge the response to this measure. | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
Thank you very much. I'm very grateful to my friend for giving | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
way, can I say that I very much respect my friend and his viewpoint, | :37:46. | :37:53. | |
notwithstanding that, can I ask him to explain why he thinks high | :37:54. | :38:01. | |
streets should be held back under restrictions, when most internet | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
shopping takes place on a Sunday? The consultation he refers to, and | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
people, when they have shocked by the internet, voting with their | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
fingers, don't they want to be able to shop freedom of restrictions and | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
doesn't he want to support the high Street in his constituency and | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
elsewhere in functioning without these restrictions? And he will | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
know, the review the government took place in the high streets, did not | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
act to make the case for deregulation, but it made the case | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
for dealing with issues of parking and business rates which the | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
government is working on and making great progress. When we are dealing | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
with the issue of internet shopping, can you make the case on the basis | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
that the hours when large shops are not open, say, after six o'clock, | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
there is a impact, everyone is on their bottom, clicking away after | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
six o'clock, because I can't get to a large shop question not that | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
doesn't make sense. -- a large shop? There is a broader way we can look | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
at revitalising the high Street and this is not the way to do it. | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
Surveys of internet shoppers show there is no relationship between | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
them internet shopping on a Sunday because they can't or want to go to | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
extended hours in local stores. In fact, if you follow that argument, | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
those on the internet between midnight and 3.00am in the morning, | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
is that an argument for shops being open during that time? Does the | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
honourable gentleman agree with me that is not the case? I agree. I | :39:37. | :39:44. | |
just give way one more time. Thank you. Doesn't this really boil down | :39:45. | :39:51. | |
to an issue of local democracy? How can it any longer... How can it any | :39:52. | :40:03. | |
longer be... Order. Just as Escortious to the House, the House | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
must be curtious. How can it longer be right for politicians in | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
Westminster to block local people in Cheltenham, for example, to amend | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
trading hours if that is what they choose to do? I will try to explain, | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
but he will also, I need to make progress. You have been... One last | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
time, yes. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. The point | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
about consultation, we do have some data, there are over 7,000 responses | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
to the consultation, and that they believe the vast majority were | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
opposed as do I, does he share that belief? Absolutely. That is the case | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
and it would be good for that to be more transparent. What concerned me | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
and I was very much welcome the fact that we as Government, the Prime | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
Minister has led the way properly, saying we need to publish family | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
impact test statements when new policy is proposed and needs to look | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
carefully at that family impact statement. That is important and the | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
family impact of this really does matter. It's important that is dealt | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
with seriously and considered. So as I said, I made the questions to the | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
Business Secretary on a number of owe cases, September, 15th October, | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
and 10th February, asking for the publication of that, it was a shame | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
whilst the understanding was in written answers that we would have | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
had publication alongside the consultation response, we did not | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
have that and we only just had it right now, right at the 11th hour | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
before we debate this. It needs scrutiny because the family impact | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
statement is important. It does make some important points. It does | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
accept that there is a potential negative impact on the family and it | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
recognises a large number of individual responses to the | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
consultation, felt that families would be negatively impacted. Thank | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
you. I also respect the comments of my colleague today but I am | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
wondering can he please explain to me why we are concerned about the | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
family impact of those working in retail, yet we don't regulate for | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
those in other shift work in sectors such as the NHS, transport, | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
catering, hospitality, the list goes on? A good point, but it's often low | :42:20. | :42:29. | |
paid workers, it's often actually women who are impacted by Sunday | :42:30. | :42:37. | |
trading. This is also, there is a knock-on impact on other services, | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
that are reliant being involved in the supply chain into large stores. | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
There will be an impact that needs careful consideration. Dealing just | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
with the objections, beyond the process, which is significant and is | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
important when deciding how people vote later today. Dealing with the | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
substance, the case made on an economic basis, but it's also | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
important to look, not just at the evidence provided by the new West | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
End companies, but also economics that I mentioned Earlier. They said | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
they projected under the Government's proposal 8800 jobs lost | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
in the convenience sector, with a net loss of 3270 jobs for the wider | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
grocery sector because of displaced trade from small to large | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
businesses. I need to carry on. Sorry. I am going to make progress. | :43:25. | :43:31. | |
So other members have a Hans to get on in this important debate. Bsh -- | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
have a chance. I am not a great expert on businesses, I am taking | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
the evidence I am seeing. I do lips been to different representatives of | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
those -- I do listen to different representatives of those businesses. | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
The association of convenience stores, the national confederation | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
of subpost Masters, the federation wholesale distributors and | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
newsagents, many of us have been to receptions they regularly have here | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
would have expressed solidarity in challenges they face in their trade. | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
When they're all united to say this change is bad news for our economy, | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
then I take that very seriously and I think honourable members should do | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
as well. You know, my concern about this | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
particular proposal is that it hasn't been properly thought | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
through. We are in danger of being seen which I am sure we are not, in | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
danger of being seen to respond to the voice of bigger business rather | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
than small business on our high streets. When the near unanimous | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
opposition of small businesses is seen in tandem with the fact it's | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
nearly as a quarter of large businesses, it has to be said large | :44:37. | :44:44. | |
businesses also oppose, then I really think we need to very much | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
reflect carefully before going at this late stage through the lack of | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
scrutiny to have this measure tacked on to the bill. Now as I come | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
towards the conclusion, as a member of parliament said before as many | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
others, we have high streets, people have spoken up for the high streets. | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
I want to speak up for the high street. I do very much want to speak | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
up for the high street but I do not think my high streets, when I go | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
back there are going to say well done, thank you very much for | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
deregulating hours, for giving more hours to the large shops, thank you | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
very much. Why aren't you spending more time and attention as we are | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
seeking to do as a Government on lowering business rates, on getting | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
better parking and less red tape which is where the Government is | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
focussed on but why are we getting distracked by saying this is a high | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
street supporting measure? I mentioned about shop workers but I | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
want to pick up on various issues. For example, there is those - the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
issue around separated parents, one parent would have access rights on a | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
weekend, we can't ignore that. One shop worker in that situation has, | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
these are her words, I work every Saturday and one in four Sundays, I | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
often struggle to arrange child care and fear it has an effect on my | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
relationship with my children. Those voices we need to listen to and also | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
recognise that in relation to the opt-outs and I welcome the fact the | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
government is seeking to provide additional protections, but there is | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
also legal advice to say that this may not allay their concerns and | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
there is already protections as we stand, indeed, even with the | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
additional protections, there is an issue about those applying for those | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
jobs, whether they're going to be out of, not considered because they | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
wouldn't be considered to work on a Sunday or implied pressures we | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
already heard in interventions to work longer. That is important, I do | :46:34. | :46:42. | |
give way. I think he has assembled a wholly alliance and I congratulate | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
him. Hasz he seen the member quoted as saying I would be under pressure | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
to do more hours on Sunday making it imfob go to Church, isn't that an | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
undesirable aspect of this move? The Government have sought to try to | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
deal with those religious preks in the measures within - I don't seek | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
my amendment to delete. Whether it's ex-prison it or implied pressures -- | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
whether it's explicit or implied. The Government did have a pilot in | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
one sense, it was road tested this measure with the Olympics, this | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
issue of opt-outs is relevant there. During the 2012 Olympics, a specific | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
opt-out was created to enable staff to avoid working longer Olympic | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
Sundays if they did not wish to. It's claimed they would cover those | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
hours with staff who volunteered to work. I understand 564 | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
representatives in stores had opened longer, found in spite of the right | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
to opt-out of Olympic Sundays in over half the stores, staff had come | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
under pressure to work the extra hours, those who asked not to work | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
extra hours were threatened or punished by being refused overtime. | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
I will give way for the last time. Would he accept that as a result of | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
that pressure that over half of those who work in shops in Northern | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
Ireland were already the opt-outs are meant to be there, have felt | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
they've come under pressure, that's why 76% of those who work in the | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
retail trade said that they did not want to have the hours extended | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
purely because they know that there will be even greater pressure on | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
them if there was to be wider hours accepted by local authorities? A | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
good point and also it's impacted by the domino effect of the | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
Government's proposals. One other shop worker told me as the idea that | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
Sunday working is optional and this is enshrined in law is laughable, | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
they make you pay one way or the other for objecting to working on | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
Sundays. When a policy is opposed by the small business opportunity and | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
opposed by a good number of large businesses, when a policy is opposed | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
by the majority of shop workers, when a policy is opposed by | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
churches, other faith communities, not least the chief Rabbi who spoke | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
about his concern that we should properly respect the character of | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
Sundays, it may have been deregulated in ways but there is | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
still a characteristic we can retain and preserve and Sunday is still | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
special for many and the Government should not chip away unfairly, | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
unreasonably without proper due process in what does ensure that | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
there is a proper place for Sundays, for families, for businesses, and | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
for workers. We should ensure we look at this carefully. Finally, I | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
recall this kind of issue has come before the House on other occasions, | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
it came before the Government, MrsThatcher's Government on an | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
entire bill in the Commons. And MrsThatcher was defeated with a | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
large majority. I remember indeed in 1986 I attended my first ever public | :49:46. | :49:54. | |
meeting, my first foray into the political world, I attended, | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
attended by my local member of parliament, Michael Portillo. He | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
came before this packed out meeting and completely misjudged the public | :50:02. | :50:09. | |
mood. He completely... He completely misjudged the view of the public, | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
the view of people who had never been to any political public meeting | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
before. He saw for himself the huge concern out there in the community | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
to this public and he misjudged what people are saying, misjudged the | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
strength of feeling about amening Sunday trading. Whilst time has | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
moved on, there is still a strength of feeling out there from shop | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
workers, from families and from shawl businesses and others. It was | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
my formative experience of politics then and indeed we have had a | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
statement from the Health Secretary about learning from mistakes. I urge | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
the Government not to make the same mistake again today. I beg to move. | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
The question is that the amendment be made. Just before we proceed with | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
the debate, I have now to announce the result of the deferred Giggs on | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
the question relating to EU measures to combat terrorism -- division. The | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
ayes 302. The nos 217. So the ayes have it. | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
Before I call the honourable gentleman, as the next speaker in | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
the debate, I would point out that we have two hours and 20 minutes | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
left of this debate. If she wishes to do so, I will shortly call the | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
Minister to speak from the front bench, a simple nod of the head, or | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
he wishes to speak, a nod of the head will suffice. I would appeal to | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
colleagues to have regard to each other's interests. We don't keep a | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
formal list at report stage but I suspect there will be intense | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
interest in these exchanges so colleagues should look after the | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
interests of each other. MrJonathan Reynolds. Thank you. I will | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
certainly indefiniter to do so. I rise in support of the amendment in | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
the name of the honourable member for Enfield Southgate to which I | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
have added my name along with the names of many other members on both | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
sides of the House. I am completely opposed to any changes in the Sunday | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
trading regulations whether it's their extension or their devolution | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
to local councils. I am sceptical of what benefits, if any, this would | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
bring to our economy, but more importantly, my concern lies with | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
retail workers and with my desire to keep Sunday special. As a Greater | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
Manchester MP, I am a huge supporter of devolution, particularly to a | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
city as great as ours. However, to me this does not feel like | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
beneficial devolution. But rather a dishonest manoeuvre from a | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
Government that seems obsessed with bringing in this policy even though | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
there appears to be no public demand for it. I also have very real | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
concerns about the way the Government have gone about this | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
process and in particular their flawed consultation which I will | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
address. I should say I am happy to declare an interest in this in that, | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
they have led the way from the front of this campaign representing | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
concerns of ordinary retail workers and ensuring their voice is heard. | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
Now there have been lots of very good, very strength arguments put | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
forward in the excellent speech, and I intend to focus my open spoo | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
speech on the family and faith aspects of Sunday too. Firstly, I | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
want to express my serious concerns about the way the Government has | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
gone about attempting to introduce this change. I believe it is at best | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
mischievous and at worst a borderline fantasy when the | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
Government say this bill in itself will not enact any changes to | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
trading regulations but leave that open to local councils to decide. | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
They know as well as we all do that this will result in extended opening | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
hours on Sundays because as soon as one council does it, neighbouring | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
councils will soon fall, one after another, until this is the uniform. | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
I won't give way because of time constraints. The Government should | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
stop consulting the intelligence of the House and treat this part of the | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
bill for what it is, an attempt to extend Sunday trading | :54:00. | :54:10. | |
... When they figure the changes they are intended to make would be | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
unpopular and controversial. If the government would like to extend | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
Sunday trading revelation injured have the courage to introduce | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
explicit legislation so members can scrutinise the proposals -- extend | :54:25. | :54:32. | |
Sunday trading laws they should have the garage. | :54:33. | :54:34. | |
I'm grateful for the member for giving way, to but | :54:35. | :54:44. | |
I would advocate this policy as a measure to get more people into | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
have the option to decide, new might have the option to decide, new might | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
laugh, but it will occur. -- you might. I admired the attempt to get | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
more people involved, but my point is that this is not real power, this | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
is an attempt to introduce a national liberalisation through the | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
back door veneer of devolution. Another disappointment is the | :55:11. | :55:12. | |
government's consultation which we have mentioned, I have described to | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
me as a whitewash. The consultation concludes the majority responses | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
were in favour of the proposal to devolve this power but in answer | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
during an in question the Minister could not tell me how many of the | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
7000 responses were against this proposal, so how can make include | :55:31. | :55:33. | |
the majority of respondents were in favour when they can't even give the | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
House the numbers? I was very disappointed with the answer and I | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
believe it should not be beyond the capabilities of the Department for | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
business to Bakambu people are in favour or against and I hope that we | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
can rectify this -- to work at Hamley people are in favour or | :55:54. | :55:54. | |
against. When the Sunday trading rules were | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
relaxed in the Olympics, we were promised this would be a temporary | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
measure, but here we are, this ignores the retail star, most of | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
them to. Want an extension of trading hours on a Sunday -- retail | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
star. To them it is a special day, as it is to most people in my | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
household. I have four young children and a couple of dogs, my | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
Sundays are not restful and peaceful, but they are special, but | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
I'm for the families to spend together and this should be the same | :56:33. | :56:41. | |
for retail workers. I share your desire to keep Sunday special, but | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
isn't that a matter of personal choice for him and for me | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
individually and not for Parliament imposed by legislation? I would | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
simply advise the member, if he approaches this with good | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
intentions, to talk to some of the retail workers and see how they feel | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
about the autonomy they have to decide whether they would get to | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
work longer Sundays or not. None of us to -- none of us here today after | :57:06. | :57:18. | |
work Sunday we don't want. Sunday remains a special day, different to | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
any other day the Wicker man retail workers can spend some time with | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
their families. -- to any other day of the week and retail workers can | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
spend. Retailers do very well on Sundays with lots of footfall in the | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
shop window, which makes for effective trading, and there's also | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
the effect this will have on smaller businesses who will see their | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
businesses suffer, and the most recent example of relaxation of | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
Sunday trading actually saw retail sales decline. I declare my | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
interest, and also comfortable declaring my interest as a practice | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
in Christian, this forms part of my opposition to any changes to Sunday | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
trading, which I share with all members of the House. We live in a | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
diverse country and I'm glad, but we should recognise that Christianity | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
is the largest religion in this country and this is a special day, | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
we go to church and the opportunity should not be denied to people who | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
have to work. I'm grateful to my friend and I am part of the unholy | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
alliance to try and keep the special nature of a Sunday, but I would say | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
to him, for those of a Christian ethos, it is not necessarily about | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
the ability on the promotion of church, it is about a deep-rooted | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
sense of who we believe people to be, that we are created with the | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
ability to rest as well as work and also, frankly, that our choices have | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
an impact on other people's choices, the freedom we seek to exercise for | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
ourselves is paid for by other people. I endorse those points, is | :58:58. | :59:06. | |
worth noting that church attendance in many cities is actually steadily | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
riding, and I will try to conclude. The government has a responsibility | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
to listen to faith groups, and the fact is they have failed to do so, | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
these changes will place additional stress on workers and families on | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
what is a traditional day of rest. I will not give way. A day to spend | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
quality time to family members and close friends. For Faith and for | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
family and for the rights of a great many retail workers, I will be | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
voting for this moment and I will be urging the House to show the courage | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
required to defeat the government on this issue. I call the Minister of | :59:44. | :59:52. | |
State, Brandon Davis. -- Brandon Lewis. I appreciate being called | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
early in the debate and I hope this will be able to help the debate by | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
outlining our thinking and the journey of travel that the | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
government would like to take on this issue. Opening, it is important | :00:06. | :00:12. | |
that we recall why this measure is before the House, why we are looking | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
at Sunday trading laws. It is important bearing mind that the laws | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
on trading in England and Wales were last in 1994, back when the only | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
time we have heard of Amazon is when we were talking of a river, and the | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
high streets faced no external pressure. The internet is | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
liberating, changing the way we live and work, but the pressures on our | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
high street are rising and the internet plays a part. Our measures | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
will help by giving local councils the right to expand Sunday trading. | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
All of these conditions were apparent just ten months ago when | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
this party stood on a manifesto which are presented, there was no | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
mention of any change to the Sunday trading laws which represents a | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
fundamental change to the social practice of our country. Why has the | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
government now found these reasons to introduce a measure in this | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
absurd fashion? I will come to some of that, but I would say, to my | :01:21. | :01:28. | |
friend, who I have huge respect for, we have said clearly in our | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
manifesto that we were determined to drive economic growth we believe | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
this is an important part of economic growth and that is why we | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
refer to this last summer. In moving this power to local authorities, it | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
is clear local authorities believe they are the right body to hold this | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
power. They are the body that represent local people and who know | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
their area 's best and they want this power and almost 200 local | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
authorities have asked for this power to be devolved, including | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
councils like Carlisle and Chorley, and also greater magister combined | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
authority. -- greater Manchester. My friend has a wonderful job, but he | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
wants to spend time on a Sunday with his family and I have heard so many | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
members of family say that, they want to keep Sunday special for | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
their families, so why should shop workers be any different? Not only | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
do people work in shops on Sundays already, and indeed in many areas | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
for longer than the opening hours because of the work -- the way shops | :02:38. | :02:47. | |
work, and in fact some of them would like more time themselves to go to | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
the retail outlets, and the clear indication from the way the internet | :02:53. | :03:02. | |
is growing, Amazon have a -- again announced they are opening a new | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
place in Manchester. I will give way in a moment. Councils want this | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
power, they want the ability to zone and decide in their area whether | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
they should have Sunday trading if they want, that is to promote their | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
high streets at the expense of our out-of-town commercial sites. No one | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
knows more about their local area than locally elected leaders. It is | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
an opportunity for benefit for independent businesses, one of the | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
big voices calling for this is the horticultural traders Association | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
who are mainly independent businesses and would like this | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
growth. I think he has hit the nail on the head on two occasions. | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
Listing to this debate, you would think that we were proposing to | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
introduce Sunday trading. -- listening. He is right, and I say | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
this as a former district councillor, it is not for this House | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
to decide what is best for local areas. Local areas have their | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
representatives. I agree, I think it is right, and one of the things I | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
have been most passionate about, as have the Prime Minister and the | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
Chancellor, we believe in devolving power and we we just wish our | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
friends in Scotland also believed in devolving power. Voices representing | :04:31. | :04:37. | |
independent businesses are very keen to benefit from this growth, as | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
well. I will go back to the very important point made by his friend | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
for Enfield Southgate in his very measured speech, when he reminded | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
the House of the Prime Minister's clear commitment just weeks before | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
the general election when he said I can assure you we have no plans to | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
relax Sunday trading laws and we believe the current system provides | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
a reasonable balance, he said. Doesn't he think it matters that if | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
the Prime Minister says one thing a few weeks before the general | :05:13. | :05:21. | |
election and then says something else afterwards? The Prime Minister | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
was very clear, when he thought it was time to review Sunday trading | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
laws come in light of how things have moved on. I'm very aware of the | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
correct point about the times afternoon. It is clear, if you look | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
at the track record of this government, no party cares more | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
about worker protection than this Conservative government, we are the | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
party that is the party of the national living wage and our | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
Chancellor has delivered that, and it is our measure that will protect | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
shop workers, no one will be forced to work on Sunday or indeed everyone | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
will have the right to no. We will reduce the dark period for large | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
shops so shop workers need give employees only one month's notice to | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
not work -- we will which is the period. Members will be voting | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
against improving workers rights, because that will go, as well. | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
Anybody who works on a Sunday already will have a new right to | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
turn down ex-towers to which they don't wish to commit, and Labour and | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
the SNP proposal that -- to turn down hours. They would deny everyone | :06:35. | :06:45. | |
the right to spend Sunday as they choose. I thank the Minister for | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
giving way. I've a number of convenience stores which are below | :06:53. | :07:00. | |
the 3000 threshold, and many small businesses, could he elaborates | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
further on what conversations he has had with those businesses about the | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
proposed changes? You will appreciate, as I was the high | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
streets Minister, we work with the high streets for and I speak to | :07:17. | :07:25. | |
small businesses all the time. Can I say to the Minister, many of the | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
independent traders have very little extra resources and they will be | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
forced to open to compete with these very large stores? What about the | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
lifestyle of those people who will end up working seven days a week in | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
order to try and keep their businesses running? I'm surprised by | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
comments, it was his local authority which has said they want this power, | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
which he is trying to stop them having. Though small shops have the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
ability to open now and they are in competition with a 24-hour internet | :08:02. | :08:13. | |
shopping -- most small shops. Amazon open on a Sunday and they deliver on | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
Sunday and we want other shops to be to compete with that. I wonder if he | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
has at any conversation with the leaders of the SNP as to why the | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
liberalised trading laws happened in Scotland and why are they prepared | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
to close them on any of the other issues apart from those which they | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
want to address? She makes a good point. Convenience stores actually | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
have more independent shops in Scotland the head of population in | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
England, and so the liberalisation in Scotland has worked. Unless they | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
are going to go backwards and change the law in Scotland. | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
If we are being asked to vote for something that wasn't in our | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
manifesto it should be because of urgent situation or because there is | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
a compelling argument or because the circumstances have changed. It | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
doesn't seem to me to be anything urgent, he may make a compelling | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
argument, the issue he seems to be resting on is circumstances have | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
changed and in that context he has emphasised internet shopping, would | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
he have been aware the business select committee just yesterday the | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
head of the British Retail Consortium talked about the | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
evolution of business models, that high street retail works with online | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
retail and they don't feel necessarily the same compulsion that | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
you need to draw a distinction between the two to achieve growth? | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
He outlines why it's important to local authorities that ability to | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
look locally at what is right for them, to also acknowledge in high | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
streets often it can be the largest stores that are the draw for | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
footfall, free car parking plays a part, as well. I would like to see | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
more of that. I will say we have to be very clear. Politics, we all know | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
in this House, is not an exact science. All but the most saintly of | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
humans can sometimes contradict themselves. Or be open to the charge | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
of inconsistency. But the contradictions inherent in the | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
Labour-SNP opposition to our liberalisation proposals are so | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
immense that I must draw the House's attention to them. They there are no | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
restrictions on Sunday trading in Scotland as honourable friends have | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
outlined, the SNP as you would expect said they would support our | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
proposals and now they say they won't. Will the SNP administration | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
in Edinburgh be introducing the restrictions that currently apply in | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
England in order to be consistent? That will be an interesting question | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
to answer. Secondly, do Labour plan to send letters to constituents | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
urging them to give up using the internet on Sundays, unless somebody | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
be exploited in Amazon or another company's warehouse? I am tempted to | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
ask the opposition why they have not themselves, actually why at | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
committee they didn't vote against this or even speak in some cases | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
against this in the committee and the SNP or Labour voted against it | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
and why they've not laid an amendment themselves? Maybe they | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
could have said something in an amendment like it has come to Labour | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
and the SNP's attention that some people shop on the internet on | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
Sundays, after all, it is now the biggest internet shopping day of the | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
week, but Labour and the SNP demand the law to switch off the internet | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
on Sundays to stamp out this disgraceful behaviour. But perhaps I | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
shouldn't give honourable members opposite any ideas. How can you be | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
opposed to walking into a shop on Sunday to buy something, a book, for | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
example, whether it's a little red one or something else, but not | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
opposed to buying that very same book so long as you do it on the | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
internet? Labour and the SNP, parties in effective coalition here | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
today, that support Amazon's profits at the expense of shops on our high | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
street, I am afraid I struggle to see the logic of. I give way. I | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. I would like to ask him | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
a question about something he said earlier about protection for shop | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
workers. I would welcome strength and protections for shop workers, | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
but could I ask the Minister if he loses the vote tonight in relation | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
of process to extend Sunday opening will he retan the protection for | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
shop workers within this bill? We will be clear from the beginning, | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
this is a package so if members vote against amendment one, they're | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
voting against the improvement to workers' rights. I give way. I have | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
had deep concerns about this and put my name to amendment one. I have | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
listened to the Minister this morning, we spoke at some length on | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
the subject of proposed pilot. I will be willing to support that, if | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
the Minister gives a very, very clear assurance that we are not only | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
going to be looking at economic drivers, but that we will absolutely | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
ensure that we look at the whole impact on family tests because the | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
reality is that so many workers who work shifts are put to the bottom of | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
the list and end up doing Sunday working because they can't get to | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
the top of the list with the employment and you must make sure | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
that's not the case so I would look for that assurance from the | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
Minister. Order. First of all, could I appeal for as orderly an | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
atmosphere as possible, the chair seeks to facilitate as many | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
contributors. Members are free to say what they like, I would gently | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
point out... Order, there is no amendment on new clause, on the | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
subject of pilots to be taken today. There is material before the House | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
but that is not amongst the material before the House. Minister. Point of | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
order. Thank you very much, MrSpeaker. Could you just confirm | :13:50. | :13:56. | |
again that the manuscript amendment which the Government attempted to | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
sneak on to the order parn at the last minute today which would have | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
involved that compromise the honourable lady seems to have done a | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
deal on is in fact not on the order paper and not before the House? It | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
wasn't selected. For the benefit of people attending to our proceedings | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
let me be explicit, it's for the Speaker to select or not to select, | :14:20. | :14:27. | |
I did not select that late submitted manuscript proposal. I need add | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
nothing. Minister. Thank you, MrSpeaker. My honourable friend | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
makes a strong point, she has been consistent on this point and made | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
this point clear and I absolutely think she makes a very clear and | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
passionate and strong point around the importance of family values and | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
the importance of social fabric and I will touch on that in just a | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
moment. I would say to honourable colleagues, on the opposite benches | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
and colleagues thinking about where we are with Sunday trading, let's be | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
very clear, none of us would want a situation where we have to put up | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
with a Government banning cinemas opening on Wednesday evenings, so | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
why would we put up a Government telling us when we can and can in | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
the open our businesses, run our shops, or how we spend our time if | :15:12. | :15:20. | |
we wish to be shopping on a Sunday? Can I put on record the fact that I | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
think the Minister's fielding a difficult case very well and he is | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
an excellent Minister who I had the great honour to serve with on a | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
housing and planning committee. However, on the specific issue of | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
employment rights, he will know that as a result of work commissioned by | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
the Christian institute on 25th February John Bowers QC considered | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
the proposals for employment rights, quote, complex, and that they would | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
deliver no protection for people who object to working on Sundays during | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
the opt-out notice period. That is the issue and that is what the best | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
legal brains have told us about the proposal that the Government's | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
putting forward. Well, I am afraid I share my honourable admiration for | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
him as he outlined for me, he was a fantastic colleague to work with at | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
all times, but on this we disagree. Say and I think as Government | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
lawyers outlined and we laid out in those, it goes beyond anything the | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
party opposite did while they were in Government to give increased | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
workers protection and it is important, they're an important part | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
of a package and I have to say inconsistency from the parties | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
opposite is one thing, but killing off jobs is entirely another. Again | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
given unemployment record of the party opposite, it is effectively a | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
Maoist take on economics, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. The SNP on | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
the party opposite didn't raise an amendment or vote in committee on | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
this issue. The estimates of growth which liberalisation will deliver | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
show the evidence, the growth which means new jobs and more taxes to pay | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
for public services as well, will come as a result of these changes. | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
Estimates suggest, I will give way in a moment, estimates suggest that | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
an extra ?300 million in London alone, those letters from Labour and | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
the SNP, the ones urging people to avoid the internet on Sundays that | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
they might be drafting as I outlined earlier should include a PS for | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
anybody looking for a job right now, maybe it | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
helped you find a job. The SNP, the party that exists to promote local | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
control over their own affairs, should maybe add PPS, explaining why | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
they're voting to prevent devolution to England and Welsh councils when | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
control of shopping hours is fully devolved already to the Scottish | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
Government. Happy to give way. Why when the Minister has known the, The | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
Government has known since November the SNP's position on this matter | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
have they not come back with proposals, for instance, protection | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
premium pay and devolving employment law so we could sort this out for | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
ourselves? Well, MrSpeaker, I am struggling to treat that comment | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
with any seriousness. I would point the honourable gentleman back to | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
press and comments from the SNP just last week where they were talking | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
about this issue. Now, MrSpeaker, your comments... Happy to give way. | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
I am extremely grateful to the Minister who is obviously to defend | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
a difficult position. But what I would say is the Government is | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
supporting this measure, the opposition is opposing. Yet there | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
are a number of colleagues who are in his own party who share deep | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
concern about this, tapping into a deep Conservative tradition actually | :18:38. | :18:39. | |
of trying to preserve our institutions. I would suggest to him | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
gently he might make better progress by making positive arguments for his | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
proposals amongst those colleagues than attacking this side and by | :18:49. | :18:55. | |
default attacking members on his own side as Maoists. I appreciate, I | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
think my colleagues and good friends around me are capable of defending | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
themselves and making their case clearly as my honourable friend | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
absolutely did this afternoon. I respect that. The reality is, | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
though, we are being very clear that we want to do something that can | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
give an opportunity of economic dproet to give our high streets a | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
chance to regenerate and I would suggest the honourable friend might | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
want to look at reports of the committee stages to see more detail | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
of that argument that we had there and then. Happy to give way. Would | :19:23. | :19:29. | |
the Minister agree with me that in my constituency the largest employer | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
is know how, it's the biggest distributor of online sales of | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
electrical equipment. Those workers, hundreds of my constituents, work on | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
Sundays, how do honourable members think they get their deliveries on | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
Monday morning? This bill will enhance the rights of those workers. | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
When honourable members go online and order and Amazon or whatever on | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
Saturday or Sunday, workers in my constituency and across the country | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
will be working and will enjoy the benefits this bill will give them. I | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
think my honourable friend outlines a very strong position very clearly. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
I will say he also highlights an important point where if we look | :20:15. | :20:16. | |
around the world at other places actually one of the most observant | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
places in the world arguably for religious observance in the United | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
States has more freedom than we do. Actually I am sure members in | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
Scotland would argue that family values have not been decreased and | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
religious observance not decreased through that in Scotland. There is | :20:34. | :20:35. | |
still the ability for people to make a choice of what they do and | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
arguably to have more flexibility on a Sunday particularly as well we | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
have to remember those workers who do work six days a week and want | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
more opportunity to be able to choose how to spend their time. | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
Before I take any more interventions I am going to make a little bit more | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
progress, I am aware of your comments rightly, MrSpeaker, over | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
the time this afternoon. I just want to say that I do know that there are | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
members on both sides, I appreciate on my side of the House, whose | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
consciences make this a very difficult subject for them. I know | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
that they act from positions where they have strong and I respect their | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
moral views, rather than them playing with political opportunism | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
that I think is going on in some members of the House opposite me. | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
Having listened to colleagues, and worked with colleagues on this | :21:23. | :21:24. | |
issue, I am pleased to be able to announce and I want to outline to | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
the House, MrSpeaker, what our journey of travel is, so that | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
colleagues have a feeling for what they want to do and what we are | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
planning. I want to announce that our proposal will go further and be | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
difficult to what we initially proposed in terms of the protections | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
that it offers. Having listened to colleagues and discussed their | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
principle objections with them, I will be proposing to do the | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
following. It's also in outlining this I should be clear, actually | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
deals with the issues raised by members of the SNP and the press | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
over the last couple of days of what their concerns are so we will find | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
out if they really believe what they have been saying in the last 24 | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
hours. MrSpeaker, what we will be looking to do is rather than | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
applying the liberalisation nationwide from day one, the | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
Government will invite local authorities which wish to liberalise | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
hours to apply for participation in an explore tarry phase. 12 places | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
will be selected who will be locally recommended from local areas to us | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
so it will be locally decided, both geographically, economically and | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
demographically diverse and taking your point, MrSpeaker, absolutely | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
correctly about the manuscript, and I take your words absolutely to | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
heart, I will say that what we will be doing, if honourable members will | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
join with the Government and join me in voting against amendment one | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
today, we will be laying an amendment in the other place. I have | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
circulated to colleagues that amendment this afternoon. Through | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
this, we will gather evidence about the liberalisations impact, | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
including the use of zoning and its effect on those economies. Of | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
course, the impact on workers will be measured too. My honourable | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
friend and other colleagues have made this case very clearly, very | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
strongly, very passionately and we are listening and we have heard what | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
they say. We want to make sure that we are able to properly assess and I | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
will liaise with colleagues to make sure that the perform apes | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
indicators recognise this, assess this and look at this as part of the | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
criteria, over the next 12 months. And evaluation... I apologise having | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
to interrupt the Minister. Point of order. For the Minister to proceed | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
with a promise of legislation which isn't on the order paper to be | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
considered and member here will vote upon something they don't have in | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
front of them. It's not promises that we are voting on. It has to be | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
in front of us to discuss in this chamber. Is that an order. ? | :24:00. | :24:10. | |
I will explain the position for the benefit of the house. There is | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
nothing disorderly in the minister giving an indication on how the | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
government would propose to proceed. If a minister wishes to say to the | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
house, our intention is to proceed with pilots, it's perfectly in order | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
for the minister to do that. But one thing, procedurally and | :24:35. | :24:36. | |
constitutionally, the house needs to be made aware again. Members are | :24:37. | :24:44. | |
voting on that which is on the paper, and which, Mr Speaker, that | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
is to say, I, have selected, and they are not voting on a government | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
proposal. Or words about pilots. They are voting on that which is on | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
the paper. The matter under discussion is the amendment in the | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
name of the honourable gentleman, the member for Enfield Southgate. We | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
are voting for that, not on a government proposal. I hope that's | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
clear. Minister. I will take interventions in a second, thank you | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
Mr Speaker. You are absolutely right, has always, I wouldn't dream | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
of taking any other view. What I would like to outline to honourable | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
colleagues, honourable friends, and members across the house, what Mr | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
Speaker says is correct, if the house votes against a amendment one, | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
I'm outlining what the government will do. I have been writing to | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
constituents over the last six months saying I agree with the Prime | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
Minister on this issue, and particularly what he said in his | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
letter of April 28. I wonder if the honourable friend could help me in | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
drafting a new letter if I was to go to the wrong lobby. Can I ask him | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
whether the government would bring forward fresh legislation in the | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
Queens speech? Why not bring forward the fresh Bill, have a proper | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
discussion about it? I appreciate my honourable friend's faith in my | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
ability to draft a letter and I'm happy to do that. Over the last six | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
months I would point to residents to the fact that the Prime Minister and | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
Chancellor last summer outline three wanted to review Sunday trade laws | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
in the context of things moving on economic lead and culturally with | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
the Internet. Is the minister telling us that the conscience of | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
this house, the conscience of individual members of this house, | :26:48. | :26:56. | |
can be salved in some why buy the promise of a stay of execution, but | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
there will be a nice funeral later on? Is that essentially what the | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
minister is telling us? If not, wouldn't he be better with drawing | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
this now and bringing up new legislation at a later stage? I | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
would say that I will just continue outlining exactly what the journey | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
would be. What he said isn't quite what we are looking at. What we | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
would have is pilots and local areas would come in, bearing in mind 200 | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
local authorities want this power, and we would choose 12 areas with a | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
good demographic spread to look at over the next 12 months. We would | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
have an opportunity to looked at the assessment of that over the next 12 | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
months, report backs upon it with the findings, based on key | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
performance indicators agreed, and we would come back to Parliament and | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
to the floor of this house. An evaluation of this exploratory phase | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
would be published. Saint honourable colleagues and friends, we are | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
circulating, and I want to be clear, we are circulating a draft for | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
colleagues to consider, and I would ask them to support us by therefore | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
opposing amendments one and 19, and support the government and support | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
the government amendments to, 13 and 14, to do this in the House of | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
Lords. There would be an evaluation of this exploratory phase that would | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
be published. The house will then debate and vote again after that | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
pilot period on extending the right to every council in England and | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
Wales. It would come back to the house for a full debate with the | :28:33. | :28:41. | |
evidence. I thank the Minister for giving way. First of all we had the | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
Minister, perhaps a member of the union of barrel scrapers, presenting | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
itself as an advocate for workers rights and interests. Now he's | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
saying he's selling on some deferred click and collect basis, an option | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
not available today, an option not in front of us. Is the Minister not | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
actually pushing something that would be a version of predictive | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
text of public policy, that would end up becoming the default position | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
for local authorities, firms and workers, who do not want it? You are | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
not quite correct in what you outline. There are a huge number of | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
local authorities, consumers, and people who work six days a week, | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
families, and workers who want the chance to have more hours on a | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
Sunday, and have that opportunity, and businesses who want the chance | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
to compete with the Internet. That's why the horticultural Association is | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
clear it's worth a potential ?75 million in just that industry alone. | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
That's independent businesses in the main, who we are looking to give | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
that opportunity to, and potentially thousands of jobs. What we are | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
outlining here today, if honourable members will vote, as I am asking | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
them to do in the lobby, against amendments number one. I'm outlining | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
what the government will do to make sure we have a pilot scheme to run | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
over 12 months, to give further evidence to come back to this house | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
for a full-screen to me, abate and vote in this house. I thank the | :30:13. | :30:21. | |
Minister for giving way. Is it a point of reassurance for honourable | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
members across the house, contained within the bill are zoning | :30:26. | :30:27. | |
provisions to allow local authorities to choose which areas | :30:28. | :30:36. | |
can enhance their local laws. He's absolutely right, there is already | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
in the Bill be ability to zone. Looking at the pilots, those local | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
areas who want to do the pilot, will specify exactly how they will do it | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
in their area and what that zone will look like. It's trusting local | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
people to do what they know is right for their area. By doing it this | :30:54. | :31:01. | |
way, there is no need for an amendment one. Our intention is to | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
increase freedom, and protect shop workers' rights, to grow our economy | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
and protect our high streets, whilst evolving power from Whitehall to | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
town halls. We want to see a devolution of power to local areas | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
who know their economy Best, who know their high street the best, and | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
who want the power to see their economy grow. Precisely on this | :31:23. | :31:30. | |
pilot point, say Lincoln applies for this and goes ahead. Would there be | :31:31. | :31:37. | |
intolerable pressure on on constituencies next door. And Tesco | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
might hold people to ransom. My honourable friend is an able | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
minister, working hard, but his arguments do not stack up. Even God | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
took a rest on the seventh day. Sit down, rest your case, and withdraw | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
this. I thank my honourable friend for his kind invitation of a rest, | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
but I will carry on to try to do the right thing for our economy for a | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
bit longer. In terms of practically how this would work, because they | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
are pilots, and because there would only be 12, no other areas would be | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
allowed to do this. If you have a look at what we are circulating this | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
afternoon, he would have that confidence in the outlying that it | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
would only be those areas, and I would come back to this house for a | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
full assessment and debate and scrutiny. Before entering this place | :32:29. | :32:37. | |
I was in business for 25 years. It's absolutely right to consider the | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
needs of large business and the cost to small business and the family | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
lives of workers. As all business people know, shouldn't the Kuster, | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
first? If the customer was to shop at other times in the weekend, | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
shouldn't they be allowed to do that? -- shouldn't the customer | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
comes first. If the pilot says customers do not want this, | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
shouldn't we ask them through the pilot to see if they do want this | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
and the effect it has on small businesses in particular. My | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
honourable friend gets to the heart of her eat key issue here, what's | :33:16. | :33:22. | |
right for the wider community and consumers and residents. -- heart of | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
a key issue. I spoke to some blue last week who made the salient point | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
to me, as somebody who works in the health service six days per week, | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
they want this wider opportunity on a Sunday to shop on the way that | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
other people do on a Saturday, Friday and Thursday, and to spend | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
time with their families in shopping areas, supporting the high Street, | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
as many of us do on a Saturday. Many of us who work hard on Saturday also | :33:48. | :33:50. | |
take advantage of this Sunday freedom. Last Sunday, I live in | :33:51. | :33:58. | |
Carlisle, and I went shopping in Gretna Green on Sunday. Isn't it | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
right the people in Carlisle get the same opportunity as Scottish people | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
to decide whether or not we are open on a Sunday. Businesses in Carlisle | :34:07. | :34:15. | |
want this plan, and indeed, the Labour local authority want this | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
power, and they might want to be one of the pilots. To be clear, if the | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
mend and one is not accepted today, we would only go forward in the | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
other house with a new amendment meaning only 12 pilots, no more than | :34:29. | :34:40. | |
that. Thank you for letting us know about the zoning proposals. Perhaps | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
you could clarify about whether London would be a zone in itself be | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
delegated to local authorities. Because London is such a diverse | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
area and many in London would appreciate working on Sundays, but | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
would not like to work on another day. So the flexibility of the new | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
employment, also making reference to your point about America, where is | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
there is a higher church attendance, but much more freedom. That is what | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
we would like, to trade on Sunday. I can appreciate there will be parts | :35:16. | :35:18. | |
of London that would want to be carried forward. Some of the | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
evidence shows that the west end alone, this could be worth up to | :35:24. | :35:32. | |
almost ?400 million per year for the economy and thousands of jobs in | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
that area alone. When we think about London, it's a really good example | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
of how the market drives these things. Even on days where shops can | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
open as long as they like, members could find that if they wander into | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
the west end in midweek, shops don't open that long. We want to give | :35:52. | :35:59. | |
businesses the choice, so it is locally driven. Can the Minister, | :36:00. | :36:07. | |
for the purposes of clarity, tell us in these proposals that we have not | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
yet seen, how they will assess the impact on premium pay, not just in | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
Scotland, but the rest of the United Kingdom. As we put these forward, I | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
think it's important that we make sure that the key performance | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
indicators will come back to this house a year after these pilots have | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
run for 12 months, and they will cover a whole range of issues. She | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
makes a very fair point. If she wants to contribute that, and it's | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
one of the points looked at in these pilots, I'm happy to make sure that | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
happens. The honourable gentleman opposite asked me if I would use up | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
all the time, know I will not, I'm about to conclude, but I would point | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
out to him that I have spent much of my time taking interventions from | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
his honourable friends, so I find his comments slightly surprising, | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
bearing in mind this was not an issue he deemed fit to vote on that | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
committee. I think we do need to allow members to have their say as | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
well. We have listened to the principled opposition to our plans. | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
I have listened to colleagues who have made strong, passionate and | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
clear proposals to us. And we are amending them accordingly, without | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
proposal, for exploratory evaluative phase, for the colleagues in the | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
other place, and a draft is available to look at now. I would | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
call on colleagues across this house, to support the government | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
amendment and to vote against amendment one. Thank you Madam | :37:40. | :37:48. | |
Deputy Speaker, and welcome to our deliberations. I should refer the | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
house to my enter in the register of interest. Honestly, that really was | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
the, trust me I'm honest Brandon, speech. We have the promise to do | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
better next time, so I'm begging you to support me despite making such a | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
mess of things so far. Honestly, did you ever hear anything quite so | :38:12. | :38:20. | |
absurd. He asked why we didn't vote against it in committee. I will read | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
out to him what my honourable friend from Cardiff West said in committee. | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
He said, I will cut short my comments and simply say that we are | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
against these proposals. But we will not vote against them at this stage | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
because we want the opportunity to test the opinion of the whole house. | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
Today, that's exactly what we are doing. | :38:43. | :38:51. | |
Turning very briefly to his last-minute offer to invite Local | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
Authorities to participate, why on earth didn't he do that in the first | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
place? There's no offer today to vote for pilots for members on the | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
Government benches. There's no way of guaranteeing those pilots. It | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
says clearly in the Bill, nothing about pilots in there. So do we take | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
his word or not, given what's gone before today and previously on this | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
subject? On this point, is my honourable friend aware of any | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
provision that allows the Government benches to pre-empt a decision in | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
the other place, or to offer this strange variant on a deferred | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
division on an issue that nobody anywhere, other than the Government | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
front bench and possibly not all of them, actually once? Is very good | :39:48. | :39:54. | |
point. He's had ample opportunity in the Lords, very ample | :39:55. | :40:03. | |
committee. It was not mentioned in the Lords, it was not in the Bill. | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
It was not mentioned until the second reading when the Secretary of | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
State mention the Bill would cover Sunday training. He could have | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
tabled amendments then, he could have tabled them today in plenty of | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
time. He chose not to. Why should we believe a word he says? I would like | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
to underline the point from the member of Enfield. If we do want to | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
get enhanced provisions, the logical thing to do would be to vote on the | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
member for Enfield's amendment in the affirmative. There's nothing to | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
prevent the Minister from bringing this provision forward in the House | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
of lords, other than the fact we haven't amended this Bill and it | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
stands in the way he has put it today. My honourable friend reminds | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
me that he could... Let me answer the intervention. Perhaps he will | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
answer the point of the member from Christchurch. Why doesn't he just go | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
back to the drawing board, start again with a new bill, and bring it | :41:11. | :41:17. | |
back to us, that is properly considered and gives both houses | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
ample opportunity to consider this properly, debate it fully, and get | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
the right conclusions and the right piece of legislation? The reason I | :41:27. | :41:36. | |
outlined what I did is if amendment one is passed, the Sunday trading | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
clauses do not apply. We need to support the Government amendments in | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
the House of Lords. From a tech core point of view, that's why we do it | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
that way. -- a technical point of view. This is a complete nonsense. I | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
think he had long enough when he was standing up to demonstrate the | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
nonsense of what he was saying. The only to do this is to start again | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
from scratch. He should really listen, particularly to his own | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
members, who made that point extremely well. Are we not moving | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
into the space where we are talking about a hypothetical amendment with | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
hypothetical evidence, where in fact it could create huge risk for those | :42:23. | :42:29. | |
neighbouring areas that will not be part of the pilot, and in 12 months' | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
time those businesses may not exist? That's an excellent point. I will | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
give way. Do we not have a choice between a clear article of amendment | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
which we can understand, feel and touch, or in stead we have a | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
flatpack pilot scheme, or an artist's impression of one? It would | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
be ridiculous for the House to buy that. He has made the point as well | :43:01. | :43:08. | |
as anybody here today, and I completely agree. I should make some | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
progress. I must congratulate the honourable member from Enfield | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
Southgate, and all who have signed his amendment, and the excellent | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
speech he gave in a very measured and appropriate tone. I would like | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
to commend the work of the keep Sunday special campaign for their | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
hard work in making sure all of the arguments were marshals, given the | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Government's failure to provide evidence in a timely fashion. Sunday | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
is the one day of the week when workers in largest stores do not | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
have the prospect of working longer hours. It is the one day a week | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
where they have the prospect of spending part of the day with their | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
families. For many people of faith it is the most important day of the | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
week, and for many others, Sunday is the day of rest. It is the one day | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
of the week where smaller retailers can stay open longer and have a | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
competitive advantage, if they wish. One in ten work in the retail | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
sector. This matters a great heel. There will be profound changes both | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
to people at work and outside if this goes through. I would like to | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
ask this question - what discussions has he had with the pilot operating | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
in Scotland that we can look to to see whether or not it has been | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
beneficial, leaving aside the cost of what has been paid, how | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
beneficial it has been to the Scottish economy to have that | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
liberation? Has he looked at that? I'm sure the members of the SNP will | :44:55. | :45:01. | |
answer her. We have a great British compromise that allows different | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
situations in different parts of the UK. Before the election, the Prime | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
Minister's office confirmed he had no plans to change Sunday training. | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
The Conservative Party manifesto did not say it would change Sunday | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
trading. Many Conservative candidates roped in good faith to | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
constituents to confirm the Government would not be implementing | :45:26. | :45:33. | |
such changes. At committee change -- stage, the minister justified the | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
changes by saying that the current rules dated from a time before the | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
Internet, 1994. Yet the populist survey from January this year stated | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
that not a single respondent said that restrictions for Sunday trading | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
were a reason for them shopping online. Not a single person out of | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
2008 people in a representative sample. Yet online trading is given | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
as a key reason for needing to extend Sunday trading. Not a single | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
analyst has suggested that the recent poor Christmas trading | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
results were caused by a lack of opportunity for shoppers on Sunday. | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
Unbelievable. The Minister told us at committee that the reason for the | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
change of mind is that when the Prime Minister's office wrote the | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
letter it was as Prime Minister of a coalition Government. But now he is | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
Prime Minister of a Conservative majority Government, everything has | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
changed. But presumably he intended to become so when his office wrote | :46:37. | :46:44. | |
that letter. I doubt it cuts ice with Conservative backbenchers who | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
support the keep Sunday special campaign. The Minister also said | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
that the changes were about devolution and changes made by local | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
people. But the changes would be applied to out-of-town centres, in | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
most areas, to the detriment of high streets. If one council introduces | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
changes to Sunday trading, neighbours will have little choice | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
other than to follow suit, or run the risk that trade will go to | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
businesses in neighbouring authorities. This is passing on the | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
blame for an unpopular measure which only one in eight people support, | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
according to a populist poll last September. We were told that the | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
changes would help the high street also. Does the honourable member | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
think it is right that the people of Carlisle should decide whether or | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
not shops are open on Sunday so that they can compete on an equal footing | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
with Scotland, which is only nine miles away? If he wants to organise | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
an adjournment debate about the people of Carlisle, I'm sure the | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
biggest will answer him. The reality is... I will answer the question if | :48:01. | :48:08. | |
you let me! If one council changes its rules, neighbouring authorities | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
will feel under pressure to do exactly the same. They will have no | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
choice. If Tesco in the borough next door opens on Sunday until 10pm, if | :48:18. | :48:25. | |
the Tesco or the ASDA or the Morrisons opens, then the one in the | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
borough next door will have two as well. I will make some progress. I | :48:30. | :48:38. | |
will give way. Would he agree that the member who has just intervened | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
has made his point for him? The people of call I'll -- Carlisle | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
should be able to decide what happens in their area in order to | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
compete with the area next door. If that happened in Carlisle, the | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
council next Carlisle would decide what happened there. The argument he | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
is putting forward is right. This would have the effect of ensuring | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
that this was not localism, that this was an actual decision. When | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
the minister was talking about zoning and was asked whether London | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
could be a single zone, why not stop at London? Why not have England as a | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
single zone? Because that is the effect of what he is proposing, | :49:25. | :49:31. | |
because of a domino effect. I wonder if my honourable friend would | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
reflect on the fact that there are some large shopping centres, such as | :49:34. | :49:42. | |
the Trafford Centre, next to my constituency. My constituents would | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
never get a moment 's peace if the Trafford Centre's hours were | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
extended. The Government is trying to have a motorway project, and the | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
building has to happen when the Trafford Centre isn't easy. It would | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
be impossible for the logistics of the situation if the Trafford Centre | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
could open 24/7. I think we can give examples of that up and down the | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
country. She's absolutely right. Turning to some of the evidence we | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
can given before this debate, during the Olympics we saw a fall in trade | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
on Sundays among convenience stores of up to 7%. There was also a | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
displacement of trade to different times of the week. There was a fall | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
in trade rather than an increase. The Government assumption that | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
people will have more money to spend just because the shops are open | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
longer does not bear scrutiny. The extra hours on Sunday will increase | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
costs in the large stores that stay open longer. There will be some | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
displacement from convenience stores to larger retailers, but little or | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
more increase in overall trade to pay for the increased cost in most | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
shops. I will make some more progress. The larger retailers who | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
open longer will have to find a way to reduce costs. This means removing | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
the premium for shop workers. As the major retailers operate UK wide, | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
changes in England and Wales will mean changes in Scotland and | :51:22. | :51:29. | |
Northern Ireland as well. Premium paid on Sundays is possible because | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
most of the retailers in the UK are restricted to six hours of opening. | :51:34. | :51:43. | |
This is a UK wide matter, and it is entirely appropriate that members | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
across the UK have a vote on this very important proposal. Removing | :51:51. | :51:58. | |
time and a half would cost shop staff ?1400 a year, which is a | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
significant hit, particularly for those on low pay in the retail | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
sector. The changes in England and Wales will have a profound effect on | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
workers in Scotland, and I am glad the SNP recognises this will hit | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
Scottish workers. I am surprised that the honourable member for | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
Livingstone told us that the SNP welcomed the additional employee | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
protections in the Bill, which he ascribed for the strong and | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
principled action of the SNP. Those protections will not do what was | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
claimed for them, however. I am glad that the letter from my right | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
honourable friend the Leader of the Opposition has had the desired | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
effect. I welcome the affirmation from the SNP that they will be | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
voting against the Government. I suspect I should give way. | :52:57. | :53:05. | |
Just for a point of clarity, and he can read the record for himself, as | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
can members of the public and this house, we were clear that we were | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
engaging with all sides of the argument, up until the point where | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
we took a decision at a group meeting in a democratic process. I | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
want to clarify that. I'm grateful for her intervention, and I'm very | :53:25. | :53:26. | |
glad they have come to the right decision in the end, no matter how | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
we got there. No more interventions at the moment because we do not have | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
very long, because the Minister took a long time and there are many | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
members who want to speak. The minister claimed this bill would | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
help workers. 91% of shop staff oppose longer Sunday opening hours, | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
and only 6% want longer opening on Sundays. Listing to the ministers | :53:50. | :53:55. | |
become you might be forgiven for thinking the figures were the other | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
way round. -- listening to. Staff who apply for some retailers are | :54:04. | :54:05. | |
asked whether they will work Sundays, failure to say yes could | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
mean no interview. Staff still in their notice period, who try to opt | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
out of Sunday working, can and do lose their jobs. Staff who try to | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
opt out of Sunday working, can and do lose hours. Staff who want to opt | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
out are under pressure from managers and colleagues not to do so. The | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
reality is that staff are already having to work on Sunday in too many | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
large retailers when they don't want to, when they would rather spend | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
more time with their children, or do on Sundays, enjoying leisure time | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
and rest. What happens to the family test? The Prime Minister said it | :54:46. | :54:54. | |
should apply to all legislation. I understand it's in the impact | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
assessment. I've not had time to read in detail, because we only had | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
two Mac hours notice of the publication, what I understand that | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
the overall impact when it comes to the family test is unclear. It is | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
clear enough to families of shop workers up and down the country, | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, that it will have a profound effect on them and | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
on what happens on a Sunday. I'm not going to give way at this stage. The | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
cost of going to unemployment tribunal means that it is simply | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
beyond the means of most workers to challenge their employer on cost | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
grounds, especially if they have just been fired. The changes to | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
employee rights will not change the realities faced by shop workers, and | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
will not change the difficulties faced in finding access to justice | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
at an employee tribunal. Shop workers will all too often have no | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
choice, just as they often have no choice at present. They will have to | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
work longer hours in many cases whether they want to or not. And | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
what of the evidence of these reforms? We have heard the farcical | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
and answers about the consultation and the way the Department is unable | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
to publish the details because people chose to write them in their | :56:14. | :56:19. | |
own words. What an absolute nonsense, Madam Deputy Speaker. It | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
really is part of this farce. Thereafter so many things to choose | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
from, but it's one that really sticks out for me. -- there are. The | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
government claims that the majority of large businesses are in favour of | :56:33. | :56:39. | |
the changes, but retailers, including Sainsbury, Tesco, John | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
Lewis, Dixons and Marks Spencer, all expressed their opposition to | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
the Prime Minister last week, and pointed out their customers don't | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
want to be able to shop for longer on Sundays. We await the publication | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
of the impact assessment, which resume a boy, the basis on which the | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
Sunday trading causes are based. We are told that a committee it would | :57:04. | :57:11. | |
be published soon, but it was only published two hours ago, seriously, | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
less than three hours to consider the impact assessment? What a way to | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
do business, Madam Deputy Speaker. It really is an outrage. A broken | :57:22. | :57:28. | |
election promise, a domino effect among local authorities. High | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
streets harmed, not helped. Smaller retailers to lose business. Staff | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
unable to refuse to work longer hours. Cuts to premium pay. In | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
Scotland as well as in the rest of the UK. All backed up by a lack of | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
publication of any evidence to support it, we don't even know if it | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
does, until the last minute. And this was a bill that started life in | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
the House of Lords where Sunday trading was only introduced at the | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
Commons at the very last minute. It hasn't had any scrutiny in the | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
Lords. It's a significant change for businesses, shop workers, faith | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
groups and families, and all who want to keep Sunday special. The | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
government has not made the case for its proposal, and this may be | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
sometime in the future, suggested possible amendment is not going to | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
do so either. We know the government wants to make this change, although | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
many large retailers don't. If they really insist this is right and | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
there are serious reasons to introduce something so far-reaching | :58:32. | :58:34. | |
that wasn't in the manifesto, they should do so with full scrutiny and | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
with evidence. They should give members of both houses the | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
opportunity to make sure that any changes that are made are done so | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
with great care, given me far-reaching consequences of what | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
are being proposed, which doesn't mean a last-minute manuscript | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
amendment, Madam Deputy Speaker, in a desperate bid for a last-minute | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
deal. As far as what is being proposed today, as far as what is on | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
the order paper, and the way it has been proposed, Labour members will | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
stick to the consistent line that we have had all along. Let's keep our | :59:12. | :59:20. | |
great British compromise on Sunday trading, and supports the honourable | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
member for Enfield South's amendment. There is little over one | :59:24. | :59:31. | |
hour left before the end of the debate. Can we keep very brief, so | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
the whole house will be grateful. I rise to speak because I am testing | :59:36. | :59:43. | |
the patience of my house with my intervention. I was told that in | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
this house you have men who were good men, clever men, and those with | :59:51. | :59:57. | |
good grace. I would like to beat to the minister who has somehow managed | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
to climb the grease pole embodying all three qualities. We all know on | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
both sides of the house that he's an incredibly hard-working Minister of | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
Housing and planning. We know this. I was always quick when we were in | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
opposition to praise ministers on the other side of the house who also | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
once held a similar position. Despite the fact he's sending notes | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
to the waverers, love bombing them, and I will forgive him for that, I | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
would also like to pay tribute to the member for Enfield Southgate, | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
who over his 11 year time in this house, it would be a shock if he | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
hadn't actually lead on this amendment today. He's a man huge | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
principle. Those of us who have been in the house over the last 11 years | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
have seen how the member for Enfield has spoken with huge conviction on | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
these issues, and they will understand why he has led on this | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
amendment and why Sony of us support him today. This whole issue is | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
rooted in devolution, which has a natural trajectory towards localism, | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
so at the risk of sounding like the Leader of the Opposition, I would | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
like to speak on behalf of my constituents. I would like to name | :01:10. | :01:16. | |
Mr Patel, who was short listed and runner-up of retailer of the year | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
last year, who runs the local Toddington Nisa in my constituency | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
and has opened a number of stores in my constituency and is an amazing | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
small retailer, who has recently taken a derelict pub in my | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
constituency and turned it into a restaurant. His words are these... | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
Actually, he doesn't want this, he doesn't want me to support this, he | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
wants me to vote against, because his pub is at its busiest with | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
families enjoying themselves on a Sunday. He's incredibly worried that | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
should this pass, and should be bigger stores be open on Sundays, | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
that pubs like his will not be open and they will fail. Because it is | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
that business on a Sunday, with families, enjoying themselves at the | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
pub, that is the difference between his local pub being profitable or | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
not profitable. He also doesn't want the committee to support this | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
because of the impact on his small high street shops, which are valued | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
by local communities. In my constituency it is not very easy to | :02:29. | :02:29. | |
get out to the big stores attend on the small high street | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
would be quite different, people would make the effort to go out to | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
bigger stores and travelled to London, and that would have a huge | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
impact on local shops in mid-Bedfordshire. To declare an | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
interest, my family owned a local shop, and it was actually, as the | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
member opposite quoted the Trafford Centre, I would say that when the | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
Trafford Centre opened and got busy, the family local shop stopped | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
opening on a Sunday and began to suffer as a result. It's a known | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
fact that small high street shops constantly have to go the extra mile | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
to compete with big stores. They don't have the resources or the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
ability to man their stores seven days per week, and seven nights per | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
week, because the work that needs to be done in terms of the ordering and | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
paperwork and payroll is all done when the shop is closed, not open. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
This was not in our manifesto. It is not something... It began in the | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
Lords, not in the house. It is not a policy that was ever given the right | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
amount of public discussion, but it should have our attention. | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
Therefore, I would say to the Minister that if we really wanted to | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
do this, put it in the Queens speech, have a public debate, let | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
the public know about it properly and have a full consultation. I am | :03:58. | :04:08. | |
pleased that we have the opportunity today for all the issues to be | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
debated around the extension of Sunday trading hours. Since the | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
original proposals were withdrawn either government, I and my | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
colleagues have been engaging with people and organisations on both | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
sides of the debate. Contrary to media speculation, and the | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
misinformation that has been peddled by the front bench opposite, the SNP | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
has, as we said we would, engaged and reached our conclusions on the | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
basis of the evidence as it has been presented to us. There are a variety | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
of views across this house, and indeed across the country. I intend | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
to outline my concerns about the effect of the UK Government's | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
proposals about UK rights and benefits across Scotland and the UK. | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
My SNP colleagues and I have no objection to the principle of | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
extending trading hours on Sundays dustup after all, in we already | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
enjoy, as has been said on many occasions, unrestricted trading | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
hours on Sundays. But, Madam Deputy Speaker, it's important to note that | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
in the past restraints on Sunday opening in Scotland have existed, | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
but have rather been social rather than legal. There are areas of | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
Scotland where there is greater religious observance where you will | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
find more restricted opening hours on Sundays, but in general the | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
practice of longer opening hours on Sundays, particularly in retail is | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
well established throughout Scotland and some evidence suggests it has | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
been the case since the late 1980s. The UK Government proposals | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
represent the creation of a uniform deregulation of trading hours | :05:49. | :05:50. | |
restrictions across the islands. That is not necessarily a bad thing, | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
but without adequate legal protections that we and others have | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
called for, both the point protections of workers and | :05:59. | :06:00. | |
remuneration of workers are threatened. The government's own | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
assessment, published only this morning, identifies over 450,000 | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
retail workers across the UK who receive premium pay. At the | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
government dedicated just one paragraph in a 44 page assessment, | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
where they dismissed the concerns of workers and the union 's door out of | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
hand. Even now faced with the feet the UK Government refuses to bring | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
forward assurances over union pay and it's ping-pong politics lucky to | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
get numbers through the lobbies. -- union Usdaw. We have always made the | :06:36. | :06:44. | |
point about premium pay and long-term erosion of premium pay. | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
The sham of a pilot offered, that pilot will not address the long-term | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
erosion of union pay, because nobody participating in the pilot will | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
participate in that, they will wait until after the pilot has finished. | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
It was on that basis that SNP colleagues and I made clear in | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
November that we would oppose the government proposals and Andrea | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
Pirlo is there now. How can they provide the necessary guarantees and | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
safeguards to shop workers, and the rest of the United Kingdom. -- and | :07:20. | :07:21. | |
we oppose them now. Protections against such work is | :07:22. | :07:39. | |
being discrimination against, although I do appreciate that | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
colleagues in the Labour Party have a legal opinion that they have | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
referred to. On the SNP bench is we welcome extra detection for workers, | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
and it shows the UK Government can, when it wants to, listen and act to | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
do the right thing. The SNP has commissioned its own legal opinion | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
from a leading Scottish silk to examine protections in details and | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
we are satisfied that they represent, for workers in Scotland, | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
significant increase in employment protection across the UK, | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
protections that would not have materialised without the SNP's | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
opposition. But there remains the issue of the imprecations of an | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
effective UK wide deregulation on the provisional premium pay in | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
Scotland. The shop workers trade union Usdaw, who I would like to pay | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
tribute to today, and their general secretary, have done it huge amount | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
of work around this issue, engaging extensively with parties across the | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
chamber and society. They have warned the imprecations of this | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
legislation, without safeguards, is that premium paid in Scottish | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
workers and across the UK, is threatened with erosion. The | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Scottish -based consultancy bigger economics estimated that the loss of | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
premium pay would affect some six 2000 workers in Scotland, with a | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
loss of income estimated at up to ?74 million per year, more than | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
?1000... Happy to give way. -- 60,000 workers. | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
Word -- with the honourable lady confirm that it would be voting | :09:14. | :09:24. | |
against provisions that have been introduced in Scotland already? It | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
will increase employment protections. No minister has said | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
anything about pay protection in either House. Low-paid workers may | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
lose even further if they lose premium paid, and Usdaw is expressed | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
concerns that when Universal Credit is rolled out in 2016, any loss of | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
income for families working in retail would have a big impact. It | :09:55. | :10:03. | |
is interesting that a greater proportion of lone parents work in | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
retail on Sundays than any other day of the week, yet if one of these | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
parents were to lose their premium pay, they will have over ?2000 less | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
in their pocket. We are not prepared to gamble with the pay packets of | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
some of Scotland's and the UK's lowest paid workers. It is obvious | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
that the erosion of premium pay as a result of Sunday trading hours is | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
not just a threat to Scottish workers, but to workers across the | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
UK. We said ahead of the 2015 UK election that the SNP would be a | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
progressive force in Westminster and work with others to protect the most | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
vulnerable, not just in Scotland but across the UK. In voting against | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
these ill-conceived measures, that's exactly what we are doing. We don't | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
just write our manifesto commitments down in the SNP, we actually deliver | :11:02. | :11:09. | |
them. The thrust of our argument is around the erosion of premium paid, | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
but there is a wider issue, that of fair pay. Decent pay for decent work | :11:14. | :11:21. | |
is important. My own family heritage, being from mining and shop | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
working groups, my grandfather believed that no worker should seek | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
overtime to make ends meet. We should protect the pay of the lowest | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
paid, but continue the fight for fair pay for the lowest paid in our | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
society. That means a real living wage, not a fake one dreamt up by | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
this UK Government. We have challenged the UK Government to give | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
assurances and to challenge provisions of premium pay in | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
Scotland. There is not a clause in this Bill, or any sentence that a UK | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
minister has started in this Bill, that is a reassurance for Scottish | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
workers, and for shop workers across the UK, that they will not lose out. | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
We will oppose anything that puts in doubt premium payments that lower | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
paid workers in Scotland have for Sunday working. The honourable lady | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
is banging on about fairness. Is it fair that a business in Scotland can | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
compare to -- potentially have a competitive advantage on a business | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
nine miles away? I think the honourable gentleman is missing the | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
point. What isn't fair is for this UK Government to bring in provisions | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
that will have a knock-on impact to Scottish workers, and reduce wages. | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
That is the basis on which we oppose them. The UK Government has not had | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
time to bring forward the necessary safeguards and guarantees that there | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
will be no detriment to Scottish workers. They have failed to do so. | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
There is a fundamental point about process, respect for Parliament and | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
its members and the constituents we represent. We ought to do our | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
business in a manner that is fair, open and transparent. The way this | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
legislation has been shoehorned into successive bills as a slapdash | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
amendment is appalling. The Government should do its best if it | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
wants to command the support of this House or the UK public. The UK | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
Government has left it until the last possible moment to publish the | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
impact assessment on the family test. For this reason, for the good | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
of shop workers across Scotland and the UK, and the 450,000 who receive | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
premium pay, my SNP colleagues and I will be supporting the amendment to | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
remove the proposals from this Bill. I met with Treasury Minister is to | :13:57. | :14:13. | |
try and understand the reasons why the Government wanted to change the | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
original compromise of the Sunday trading act it agreed in 1994. I was | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
told there were two principal reasons. One was to revive the high | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
street, the second was to remain competitive with neighbouring | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
countries such as France. It was cited that online shopping was the | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
principal cause of the recent demise of the high street, although there | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
has been long-term competition from out of town centres causing the high | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
streets to be in demise. I doubt very much that keeping shops open | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
longer on Sundays will actually stop people shopping online. Anyone who | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
has gone shopping with their teenage or young adult children will know | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
that they go and look but then say straightaway, mum, we don't buy it | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
here because there is an online discount. It's very difficult to | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
turn the tide back. I tried to make a point in the previous | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
intervention, that behind every online transaction there are tens of | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
thousands of British workers working in warehouses, and those people have | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
writes too. She is standing up for one particular type of worker, and | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
ignoring the fact that tens of thousands of workers are working | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
elsewhere behind the scenes. The honourable gentleman makes a valid | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
but separate point. I am addressing the question of whether by keeping | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
the shops open longer that. People shopping online. The people who he | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
wants to have jobs servicing the online industry. As has already been | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
pointed out, a number of high street stores are successful in maintaining | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
their high street position and also giving an online offer. I am | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
prepared to concede that we need to remain competitive as a country. I | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
asked the British Embassy in Paris to give me details of the recent | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
change in French Sunday trading laws. Essentially, my amendment | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
seeks to mirror as closely as possible how the French Government | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
has approached the same question, by designating localised tourist zones. | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
It extended the number of Sundays for trading in France from five a | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
year to 12 a year, essentially one a month. It created 12 zones, by happy | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
coincidence. Six were in Paris, perhaps a welcome distraction to | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
members to run through the thoughts of where they are, on the | :17:00. | :17:07. | |
Champs-Elysees, and other areas. It gives an idea of the size of the | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
zones that the French Government identifies, plus six other regional | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
cities. This allowed local Government to do designate smaller | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
tourist zones where shops, under special licence, could open for | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
longer. The honourable member for Tottenham asked a question about how | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
the French Government designated tourist zones. The Government | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
collect data on the profile of the shoppers who use these particular | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
zones, and their definition is that it should show acceptable -- | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
exceptional attendance for tourists residing abroad. Crucially, these | :17:49. | :17:58. | |
tourist zones do not have wider application, which reduces the | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
negative effects on smaller shops and convenience stores that we have | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
been discussing. The Olympic Park experience is very important, | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
because it is the only prat to co-pilot we have to go on when | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
discussing what the likely impact would be. -- the only practical | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
co-pilot. When the experience of 2012 was analysed by Oxford | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
Economics, it was ascertained that in up to a two mile radius from | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
large supermarkets in that area, small and medium-sized enterprises | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
lost over 3% of their weekly sales income. If that is extrapolated up | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
to the national scale, it's estimated the annual loss would be | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
?870 million of sales from all types of convenience stores, and a net | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
loss of 3270 retail jobs in England and Wales, should longer Sunday | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
trading hours be made permanent, as was the case of the experiment | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
during the Olympics. I have been contacted by my local Mesa and spa | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
convenience store owners, who are very concerned about the impact on | :19:17. | :19:28. | |
these stores. I have also expressed concerns that the Keep Sunday | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
Special campaign has expressed, and the church, that day leisure where | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
people can spend time with friends and family is important. Speaking | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
anecdotally to shop workers in large stores, it is often the case that | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
they get their free time in terms of half days on other days of the week, | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
when family and friends may not be available. Until today we have not | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
been able to see a details impact assessment, so I agree with what the | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
Bishop of St Albans, the lead spokesman of the Church of England | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
on Sunday training said, that an increase in Sunday opening hours | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
will only lead to people being more pressured to spend Sunday apart from | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
their children and families. I represent a constituency of the very | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
large tourism industry. How would this suggestion be workable, given | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
that in Paignton, parts of the town centre I'd used by locals, yet the | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
out of town supermarkets are used by people governs holiday camps. It is | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
a devolved proposal, where local authorities would express an | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
interest in being one of the designated tourist zones. My | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
amendment limits temporarily and geographically the impact that might | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
be a negative on small and medium enterprises. In my amendment that is | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
the capacity to deal with extended opening hours during the British | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
holiday season as well as the Christmas season, when many places | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
like Blackpool increase their tourist trade. I would like to | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
highlight the research that has shown that the majority of shop | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
workers do not welcome the opportunity to work longer hours on | :21:24. | :21:29. | |
a Sunday. The current provisions do improve legal protection, for which | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
I commend the ministers, but the practical reality in the workplace | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
is, if you are worried about losing your job, you don't want to ask for | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
a special concession not to have to work on Sunday. If you want | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
promotion, similarly, you do not want to ask for that concession, | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
because your competitors in the promotion stakes may not ask for a | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
comparable concession. I welcome to the amendment proposed by the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
Government to give local authority the power to restrict someday | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
trading to zones, but my concern is that the zoning is potentially too | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
broad in its impact. For examples, it wouldn't be strong enough to | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
avoid a combined local authority wide mega zone occurring, and in my | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
view, that would have an excessively negative impact. A trial would make | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
it difficult to discern the selected impact on different businesses | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
within such a wide zone. It is not the minister's fault that the | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
manuscript amendment has not been selected today, and he has indicated | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
in his words that it gives us a feeling for what he would like to | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
do. That was a valiant effort. But the difficulty for us is that it | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
isn't actually on today's order paper. What we really need is an | :22:57. | :23:03. | |
amendment that you can feel and touch. I believe that a compromise | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
that benefits both families and the UK competition lies in the zone | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
model, and I encouragement as to support his compromise. Order. Just | :23:16. | :23:22. | |
under 40 minutes and a lot of people wishing to contribute. If everybody | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
contributes four for me it is, we can have a lot of contributors. I | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
ask members to consider each other. It is Conservative to protect the | :23:29. | :24:51. | |
family and its work. When we come to the House and we debate issues like | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
knife crime, when we lament that families have not got time to sit | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
around with their children, when we want to see parents supporting their | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
children with their homework, it is being done on a Sunday. | :25:08. | :25:48. | |
against this change must be something that we support. For those | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
reasons, family, because this house debates that on numerous occasions. | :25:55. | :26:04. | |
For that reason alone, we should oppose this amendment. I rise more | :26:05. | :26:15. | |
in sorrow than anger. I have made my views known to the Minister. I'm | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
very disappointed that today I will be supporting, not the government, | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
but my honourable friend for Enfield Southgate's amendment. Can I make | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
reference to my right honourable friend the member for Meriden. I | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
will not be supporting her because I think it's a moot point as to what | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
can be classified a tourist area. People might come to Warwickshire | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
and visit Stratford in her own constituency, but she has Chown 's | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
Leigh Wood in her constituency, which could be reclassified as a | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
tourist attraction. And everyone would find it difficult to prove | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
what is and isn't a tourist area. I don't think that stands. This isn't | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
an economic issue. It's not actually even a faith issue, although I've | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
paid tribute to the good speech from the honourable gentleman for | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
Stalybridge and Hyde. It's about what country we want to be. It's a | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
conscience issue. My understanding was that the 1994 Sunday trading act | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
was subject to a free vote on a conscience issue. Why can't we do | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
the same. It's pretty shocking that a manuscript amendment appears on | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
the Twitter feed of Sky News at four minutes passed to the four members | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
have had a chance to look at it. Five or six weeks ago I said to the | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
Prime Minister that what we needed was a competitor competitive regime | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
where local authorities themselves could come forward and offer to be | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
pilots, and it was dismissed. Ministers were not talking to | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
backbenchers about this issue until 48 hours ago, less than that. On the | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
specific issues we have put forward. I have to say, I'm not a super | :28:06. | :28:13. | |
liberal or a social liberal, I think we have a social contract and bond | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
with our constituents. We should regulate some behaviours, which is | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
why we voted to ban smoking in vehicles for children, for instance. | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
Taking the high most is not the right way to pursue this issue, | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
particularly as in 2014, the Prime Minister specifically said on BBC | :28:31. | :28:40. | |
news that families should be the prism by which we look at policy. It | :28:41. | :28:51. | |
is not acceptable that there hasn't been proper scrutiny and oversight | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
in the Lords. It's not acceptable that the whips have packed the | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
public bill committee by people who are likely to be sympathetic. It's | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
not acceptable that the relevant section of the Freedom of | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
Information Act is used to stifle debate by hiding the number of | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
consultations. We saw the ridiculous answer given by ministers to my | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
honourable friend. Why isn't there a family assessment or an impact | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
assessment? These are important questions the government has not yet | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
answered. 32% of the economic activity in my constituency is in | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
the retail sector. There will be a domino effect and decisions will be | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
taken naturally. If Peterborough were to deregulate and have a | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
different approach in terms of its retail regime, then fail would and | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
Huntingdonshire, Corby and other local authorities would want the | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
same. It's foolish and naive to assume that will not happen. What am | :29:50. | :29:57. | |
I asking members to vote on today? I'm actually asking them to give the | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
government breathing space. We know this is not being driven by the | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
superb ministerial team at DC LG. I don't always agree with them, but | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
they are very good at their jobs. It has been the dead hand of the | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
Treasury, they have been taking the media flat-footed, and they are | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
putting out the lines to take. If you are an obscure backbench Tory | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
MP, you are likely to get a brand-new bypass if you vote the | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
right way today. Or perhaps become a special representatives to some warm | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
and exotic place you've never heard of. The fact of the matter is, this | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
is an issue of principle, integrity and conscience. I deferred to know | :30:42. | :30:49. | |
one in my admiration for this government's work in important areas | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
such as the reform of education and welfare, but this is a needless and | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
egregious conflict with its own backbenchers and it doesn't need to | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
do that. There is no authority for this because it was not in the | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
manifesto. We know that's the case. I've talked about the legal case | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
being threadbare, and the legal opinion of John Burroughs QC. I have | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
to say to the Minister, who I am very fond of, for him to say just a | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
week or so ago, that the government was proceeding on the basis of | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
what's on the bill, and came out of committee, and then he waxed lyrical | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
at the dispatch box today about this fantastic idea about piloted | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
projects for opening up retail across the country, it doesn't stack | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
up. It's close, but no cigar. If it was so good, why wasn't it taken up | :31:37. | :31:43. | |
by senior ministers weeks ago when I raised it personally with the Prime | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
Minister? It's a fair question. If honourable members across the house | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
today vote against the government and in favour of my honourable | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
friend's amendment, all they will do is allow the government to consult | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
properly, to come forward with coherent arguments, and bring | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
forward proposals which will protect workers' rights, look after the | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
special interests of the Association of convenience stores who have | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
raised concerns, take proper note of the trade unions. They are not | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
always the friends of this side, but we deserved to listen to them. Come | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
forward with new proposals in the Queen's Speech. I can even offer the | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
Sunday trading private projects bill, and I will invoice the | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
Minister for that suggestion! And then we can have a proper debate so | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
we know what we are voting for. I would say to the Minister, this has | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
not been done properly, no proper scrutiny or oversight, there has not | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
been proper debate and discussion, and running around with manuscript | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
amendment is at four minutes past two on the day of the reading stage | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
is not good government. I want to support this amendment and wanted to | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
succeed, but on this occasion, with a heavy heart, I cannot support the | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
government and will be voting for the amendment, in order the | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
government can come back, carry the house as a consensus, protect jobs, | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
protect family life, look after the interests of our constituents, for | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
no other reason, that that is why we are here. I'm very pleased to speak | :33:24. | :33:32. | |
in support of the amendment presented today by the honourable | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
member for Enfield Southgate, and to be part of the unholy alliance doing | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
so. Trust me, it's better to be part of an unholy alliance than to be | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
called a Maoist. The reason most of us stand in support of this, we are | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
united on some keeper and suppose, because we stand in support of | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
family life, because we are opposed to the exploitation of shop workers | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
and we believe in real competition and genuine devolution that gives | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
their play to smaller shops and supports diverse T on the high | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
streets. We are united as well because we believe in this country | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
it is rightly keep Sunday special. Of course society has changed which | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
is why the law has changed with it. I know some people will look at a | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
recent opinion poll that says some people want to, and there is a rare | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
majority apparently, who want to change the law on this even further. | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
It's not that we on this side of the house are bitter about opinion polls | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
but... We don't always get everything right. Even if that | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
particular YouGov poll was right on this, let's look at some of the | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
other findings. 58% of the population fear the changes the | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
government proposes would affect small stores, and 48% agree that | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
longer opening hours would be detrimental to family life with only | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
27% saying they wouldn't. The issue of the family test here has been | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
discussed in the impact assessment that popped up this morning. | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
Wherever we stand on individual policies, the government's idea that | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
every domestic policy should be measured against its impact on the | :35:20. | :35:26. | |
family life, I don't think that's one at any of us would seriously | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
fault. I would really hope that issue, above all else, is taken into | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
consideration, and the save dry Minister that speaks the language of | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
prison reform, who has dealt with issues like the stigma affecting | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
mental health, that once upon a time Eurosceptics, a Prime Minister who | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
said that he didn't want to change Sunday trading laws, really want | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
this antifamily piece of legislation to happen on his watch? I close with | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
the words of one mother, a shop worker, who has this to say... As a | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
mother, I wouldn't work Sunday evenings or late afternoons, yet it | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
would be forced on us, as we would need more than one manager on a | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
Sunday to cover the hours. She's right, and she's not just beating | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
for herself, we know she's speaking for hundreds of thousands of people | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
across the country, and that is why, Mr Speaker, I believe with the | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
deepest conviction, that whatever our party background, today we need | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
to speak up for them. When you don't put something in your manifesto, | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
indeed, when you are the leader of a political party giving a particular | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
pledge, it's a serious state of affairs. The reason why there is so | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
much discussed with politics all over the world, and we are seeing | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
what is happening in America, is that we are no longer trusted. What | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
has changed since the general election? If there was some | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
overwhelming economic case, I would understand it. But what has moved on | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
in nine or ten months, and when I voted, I think it was a free vote, | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
so there was no pressure from number ten or 11 in 1994, people were not | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
being shuffled off for chats, we were allowed to vote how we wanted, | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
and we were told it was a compromise. It is a compromise. Are | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
we receiving pressure from our people arguing for changes? I | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
haven't detected anything stop why are we running around viewing this | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
as a macho measure? It's not. Its actually, as my honourable friend | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
has just said, a conscience issue. I think the point but to the Minister | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
is important for all of us, and I would urge all of us to think about | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
this before we vote. We as MPs value our Sundays. I have heard often that | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
MPs will only do things on a member on Sunday, otherwise I want to be | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
with my family. When we have this great job here, with all the | :38:07. | :38:09. | |
privileges we have, we have a duty to look after people who are much | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
less better off than us, who worked unbelievably hard, often in fairly | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
grim jobs, and do we want to force them, because ultimately all the | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
pressure will be on them from big businesses, do we want them to sit | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
behind a till on Sunday, or do we say to them, we believe Sunday is | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
special...? I want to finish as soon as possible to obey the speaker. | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
Sunday is special, and what is good for us, is good for them. Frankly, | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
this will apply enormous pressure on local authorities and it will work | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
one way or the other. A small authority like mine in west London, | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
if a big store opens in Lincoln, Tesco will go back to West Lindsey | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
and say, in less you agree to deregulate, open all hours on a | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
Sunday, we will close the Tesco down in Gainsborough and put 400 people | :39:05. | :39:05. | |
out of work. Brittin used to have its own Sabbath | :39:06. | :39:56. | |
every Sunday and it was deregulated and privatised. Secretary became | :39:57. | :40:04. | |
free time on rest became leisure, the assumption was everybody with | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
benefit because we could decide for ourselves how to spend the day, this | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
was and remains a fallacy. He went on to mention the work on the | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
dangers of individualism and societal breakdown, the Conservative | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
party is not just about individualism, it is about society | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
as a whole. We know the dangers of societal breakdown, not to mention | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
the cost. The Secretary of State for Work and Pensions has now a lot of | :40:35. | :40:43. | |
work on this issue. He wrote in 2009 that British culture once had an | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
inner poise and balance, 20 years of seven day a week consumer culture | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
have not made British people happier. Our society is becoming | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
more atomised and more divided. I tell my honourable friend is that | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
there is a silent traditional conservative case for putting the | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
family first and voting for this amendment. | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
A pleasure to speak in this matter. Very clear where I stand for my | :41:15. | :41:23. | |
party, supporting the amendment and make sure that we win this vote | :41:24. | :41:31. | |
tonight. I was a member of the Northern Ireland assembly and I have | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
some knowledge about devolution and how it works and I have been | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
fascinated to see the way in which the government has sought to make | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
the case for these changes using the language of devolution and the | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
evolving Sunday trading laws on the Minister has regularly said... To | :41:49. | :41:57. | |
trust local communities to make the decision is best for them for | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
anybody who really believes in devolution there is a fundamental | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
problem with this argument. The government believed in real | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
devolution in this issue, the trusted communities to make | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
decisions right for them then that is what they would have proposed but | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
that is not proposed, what the proposed as a trust communities to | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
make the decisions to liberalise Sunday trading, that is not real | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
devolution which allows communities to extend or restrict Sunday | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
trading, seeking to masquerade as devolution. Many serious objections | :42:29. | :42:36. | |
to these proposals, the fact that it will result in a large number of | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
George losses -- job losses and smaller shops. I believe this is an | :42:42. | :42:54. | |
attack upon those of faith and whether the members believe it or | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
not, I believe it. It is an attack upon those with conscience and an | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
attack upon those who quite clearly don't want to see the changes. A | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
National opinion poll put forward 67% of the general public said they | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
didn't want any changes whatsoever in Sunday opening, no change in the | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
liberalisation at 60% of chief executives said they wished Sunday | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
would stay as it was and some of the figures and stands in relation to | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
staff of the 10,000 retail stuff that was asked, 91% of those opposed | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
the plans to relax the current laws on 50% of shop workers are under | :43:32. | :43:40. | |
pressure to work more hours, 35% what Les, 72% said he would face | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
further pressure of regulations the shops were allowed to open longer. I | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
love this country and the things that we stand for and I feel proud | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
of our institutions but the way in which this government has handled | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
this issue, I am deeply saddened by the tactics they have employed, | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
perhaps one issue in itself could be overlooked but they have brought in | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
the controversial proposals and they came with no manifesto mandate. The | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
consultation was rushed and held in the middle of the summer holidays. | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
This is a matter of great controversy and public concern. The | :44:19. | :44:27. | |
government took the decision twice. Can I conclude with this, we are | :44:28. | :44:34. | |
deeply concerned about public disaffection from politics and the | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
government and the government has effectively told several dozen | :44:40. | :44:41. | |
people who engaged in this conversation that the government | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
does not understand what they have said and have not been able to take | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
on board their comments. A cross-party committee of members of | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
this house should be established to review the 7000 submissions to | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
discern whether or not it is possible to get a submission report | :44:57. | :45:06. | |
something that questions the government's amendment. I oppose | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
amendment one. It will shift retail two out-of-town developments. | :45:13. | :45:24. | |
Because of the serious procedural disadvantages, I commend the | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
amendment to the house and ask everybody to support. | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
Delighted to support my honourable friend with his amendment. The | :45:33. | :45:43. | |
Minister is a great man as befits the honourable member for Great | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
Yarmouth and an impossible task today, I have never seen such a | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
shambolic way in which a new series legislation affecting our country | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
has been introduced. It looks like something delivered by a last-minute | :45:56. | :46:04. | |
.com and I have to say that it also makes the back of a cigarette packet | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
looked like a sophisticated form of engagement. He has known, the prime | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
minister has none, everybody has known for months that many of us on | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
this site are deeply unhappy, I was here 25 usable when we hammered out | :46:18. | :46:27. | |
this compromise over years, not ours -- 25 years ago. Before that in 1986 | :46:28. | :46:38. | |
we started the process. It was done over a period of time and the truth | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
is that we arrived at that after huge consultation and I believe that | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
compromise has largely worked and we have maintained Sunday is a | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
different day, we have fulfilled to keep Sunday special and my honour or | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
friend is right, it goes to the heart of the fabric of our society, | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
not simply by moving things around and workers pay, it is about the | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
nature of our country and I fully support the honourable members, I | :47:07. | :47:18. | |
think the government's proposals are deeply flawed. There is no demand. | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
67% support the current arrangements and 90% of shop workers who are | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
deeply affected by this are opposed to the government's proposal. This | :47:30. | :47:39. | |
will do nothing to relieve the problem is felt by the Billy Gunn | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
high-street. To the minister I would also see that delegating this | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
responsibility to local authority in my part of the world, I am at the | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
apex of four different councils and there will be a serious domino | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
effect between them all. If one went, then the rest would feel | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
obliged to follow suit. We saw during the Olympic games that the | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
changes seriously damaged sports shops. I have the Association of | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
convenience stores run by small people who do a fantastic | :48:17. | :48:24. | |
hard-working job. The economic survey found that increasing opening | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
hours for large stores would cost the convenient centre it has an 800 | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
jobs and ?870 million in sales. I cancelled and not want this change, | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
the Association of convenience stores do not want this change and | :48:39. | :48:48. | |
we have a solution at hand, we have proposed an alternative, the | :48:49. | :48:49. | |
Minister is apparently talking about an alternative which has just been | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
tabled today but will be tabled in another place. Whether we do as we | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
did in 1993, have a bill setting out the three options that are currently | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
on the table, possibly more and one option will be no change and then | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
let's us debate this over a period of time Saddam tried to rush this | :49:13. | :49:13. | |
through in a couple of hours. The government ministers last ditch | :49:14. | :49:24. | |
attempt at compromise has redeeming cult scraping the barrel but why | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
should we believe these promises from the government when it made a | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
promise last April and is not keeping it. My name is an amendment | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
one and I agree with the honourable members when they say it should have | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
been a free vote. If the look of the survey which has been mentioned | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
repeatedly, it is a stark chair of existing Sunday working in both | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
large and small stores and tells us that 35% of staff in large stores | :49:54. | :50:00. | |
and 55% in small stores want to work fewer hours and less on Sundays and | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
chief executives from stores like John Lewis and Sainsbury's have | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
expressed their concerns and did not believe there is appetite among | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
consumers retail staff for this and I want to remind the house that | :50:11. | :50:15. | |
staff in retail our carers in the same way that there are carers | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
across all occupations, the survey says that half of the staff they | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
surveyed have caring responsibilities for children and | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
people with disabilities or family members who are ill, arranging | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
alternative care for Sundays is difficult that they find it so. The | :50:32. | :50:39. | |
opt out that has been described has been described as laughable and only | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
13% of staff in large stores and 10% in small stores have used that. I | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
have to say it is my opinion that the vast majority of retail staff do | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
not want to see these trading hours extended and I have had very many | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
e-mails from staff in my constituency telling me that. | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
Devolving Sunday trading will cause longer opening, the stores and shops | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
in my constituency have to compete already with the travel Centre which | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
has been mentioned in this debate. It was easy to see the Christmas in | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
a shopping centre like that that longer hours to not mean more | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
business. People simply do their shopping at a different time they | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
shop in large stores and small stores lose the business and staff | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
would be losing their precious family time and probably not gaining | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
entry because what would happen is this shifts would be stretched. In | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
if shops are open longer and longer hours, it will have impact on life | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
on a Sunday. Many hundreds of my constituents are greatly affected by | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
traffic going to and from the Trafford Centre which would become | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
never ending, they would never have peace, even overnight on Saturday if | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
the Trafford Centre opened for longer and the government wouldn't | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
even be able to deliver motorway project if the staff could not work | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
on the motorway overnight. I will conclude in a moment. We have an | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
officials in greater Manchester with devilish not ours, we don't need the | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
postcode lottery of opening hours at the government is threatening and I | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
will be voting for the amendment and recommended to the house for | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
families, particularly those who are carers and people who live near | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
shopping centres and my constituents and suffer from congestion and | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
traffic and the small shops and the staff who may lose their jobs. | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
I rise to speak in favour of Sunday trading because I feel in a place | :52:35. | :52:43. | |
like central London I stand at a London MP that we should have some | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
freedom for people to trade and choose how they do business, you | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
don't have to go shopping but if you want to go shopping you should have | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
the opportunity of doing so. Many of the arguments made already have been | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
made and I will talk briefly about the garden centres, throughout our | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
country, some of you said you have pets, that means that you probably | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
need to go to a garden centre, you might want to restart, the garden | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
centres have made representation to me because they have to go and feed | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
those animals, so I am running a campaign of allowing people to trade | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
the hours they want to. I had a meeting this morning with my local | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
church leaders and I was struck by the American vicar who said I am a | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
vicar over here but where I come from we have a greater churchgoing | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
that we have in this country but notwithstanding that, people can | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
still do business throughout the day on Sunday. I urge you all to | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
consider those who do want to work to allow those freedoms for those | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
who want another day to celebrate with their families, let's not be | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
selective year as to who can spend days with their family and we should | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
be an inclusive party which encourages people to spend their | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
particular day with their family and I urge us to vote in favour of | :54:02. | :54:03. | |
Sunday trading. The main reason why I will be | :54:04. | :54:14. | |
supporting the amendment tonight is that this is bad for people who work | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
in shops. It is bad for them as individuals, bad for their families | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
and bad for their communities. The member for Enfield South gave a | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
brilliant speech and there was very disappointed by the minister's | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
response, the notion that the British economy can only be more | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
efficient by making people work seven days per week is absurd. If | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
that is the economic model there is something wrong with the economic | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
model. People work to live, they don't live to work. There are lots | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
of things we could do that would be more efficient, we could propose to | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
our partners by text message, we could read to our children on Skype | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
and nobody would suggest these things and the constant denigration | :55:03. | :55:08. | |
of family life is truly unhelpful. The protections for those in the | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
shops are not working properly and it is ironic that the legal advice | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
comes from John Bowers to see who is the president of Brasenose College, | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
perhaps the feminist should go back to his old college and get a | :55:24. | :55:32. | |
tutorial on this problem. We know from these beings in the fixed that | :55:33. | :55:34. | |
this will not strengthen the economy. It will shift business from | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
big shops to small shops. I want to say for the honourable | :55:38. | :56:03. | |
member and I know her amendment is well-intentioned but the irony is | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
that every cathedral city in the land would become a place which | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
would be zoned for longer hours and it is the church that is leading the | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
campaign against having these longer hours on a Sunday. I have had no | :56:18. | :56:24. | |
representations from my constituents in favour of change. | :56:25. | :56:36. | |
I leave the last word with a women who worked in a shop in my | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
constituency who wrote to me, don't I deserve a life as well? | :56:44. | :56:45. |