24/03/2016 House of Commons


24/03/2016

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the view that he wants to ensure that Department implements the

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welfare reforms we legislate for properly and I am sure he will have

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heard what we said today. Point of order. I think all of the House,

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every member, is grateful for the particular messages about security

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that we have received this week in light of the tragedy, and tragedies,

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across Europe. But would she inform the House what we backbenchers and

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other members of this size can feedback any concerns they have in

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response to that? Is there a formal process or could we invent one?

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Well, I am grateful for the honourable gentleman for raising

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such an important matter on the floor of the House and I am sure he

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is right in saying that all members of the sites will be member for --

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will be grateful for the new advice and procedures that we have not only

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got a projection of members but for the many, many people who work for

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members both in their size and in a constituency offices. There are

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various ways in which the honourable gentleman and they other honourable

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members can feedback or discuss further measures are further advised

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that may be necessary. One is through the Sergeant at Arms. I am

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also aware that the Chairman of Ways and Means has spoken in person to

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many members of the House about this in his capacity as chairman of

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various committees which deal with the matter. And the honourable

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gentleman has very cleverly now raised the matter on the floor of

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the House. It is therefore a matter of record and I am glad that he has

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done so. Madam Deputy Speaker, following the application this

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morning from the opposition Chief Whip for elections in Baltimore and

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Sheffield Brightside, a member of the government benches shouted out

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any more. It was hugely disrespectful to our late friend and

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colleague and I seek guidance as to how situation may be addressed. I am

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quite taken aback by what the honourable lady has said. I was not

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in the chamber at that point and a soul I have no personal knowledge of

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it but if indeed any member of this House made a remark like that at a

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time when the writ was being moved after the death of a member of this

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House, they simply should not have done so. And if nobody else has told

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them that they should not have done so, I am telling them now. And I

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hope that will be taken note of. I am grateful to the honourable lady

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for reasons such a sensitive matter. Sorry, I will go this way! Madam

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Deputy Speaker, could you advise me on how I can put on the record my

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concern that there has been absolute silence from separatist activists

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about the fact that today was meant to be independent state for them.

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There has been no reference to this whatsoever in terms of respecting

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the Scottish electorate. Could you advise me on how to put that on

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record? Well, I understand the point that the honourable gentleman is

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making... I understand the point the honourable member is making and I am

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aware, although I was not in the chair over the last are, that while

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Mr Speaker was in the chair there honourable members made some very

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interesting suggestions about how today could be celebrated in future,

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and I had a feeling that the honourable gentleman's pointers

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about to be answered by a further point of order from the honourable

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lady. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not quite sure where

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the honourable member was when we were just having business questions,

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when I specifically made reference. Perhaps that speaks to the fact that

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members of affairs, particularly those on that side and of the mail

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fraud, do not listen when women are speaking. How about the start today!

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-- of the mail fraud. I wish I could correct the honourable lady but the

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observation that it is often the case that the men did not listen

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when a female is speaking is indeed the case. But with persistence, we

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will overcome that. And I am certain I can assure the honourable lady

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that the chair has heard what she has said and I can assure the

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honourable gentleman that the matter that he has raised has been properly

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listened to cure in this House. Further to that point of order,

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Doctor Julian Lewis. Further to that, can I within the rules of

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order expressed the hope that during the 23rd will go down as

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Independence Day for the United Kingdom? -- the 23rd of June. The

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honourable gentleman knows that is not a matter for the chair and that

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I would not dream of either encouraging, more forbidding him

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from expressing that hope over and over again! Madam Deputy Speaker, I

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raised the point of order on the 9th of February in relation to the

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government's attitude towards the trade union Bill and Lords'

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amendments. It got much publicity as discussed the Speaker's reading

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habits in terms of the Socialist worker. The speaker on the 9th of

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February advised me to submit a written question to try to get

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clarity on the worker. Written question to six men in vivo is a

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named a question submitted by myself on the 11th of debris. I have not

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had a response. -- in vivo. I was wondering if you could advise me how

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to get an an answer on behalf of 6 million workers who are trade union

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members as to what the government's attitude is about the trade union

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Bill and Amendment? As the honourable gentleman is well aware,

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and the Speaker will have made clear, that Mr Speaker will have, I

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am sure, given that advice to the honourable gentleman about putting

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down a written question because, of course, the answers to questions is

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not a matter for the chair. But the fact that a question has been

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submitted and several weeks later has not been answered is a matter

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which Mr Speaker would... Would most certainly deprecate and I am quite

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sure that those on the Treasury bench will have heard what the

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honourable gentleman has said. And that a message will go to the

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appropriate department that the honourable gentleman should have

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received an answer. Whether it is the answer that he would like to

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receive or not is another matter and not one that I can address, but he

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ought to receive an answer. And I am quite sure that if he does not

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receive such an answer, in the near future, he will be perfectly

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justified in raising this matter again on the floor of the House. If

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there are no more points of order, I thank the deadly to Leader of the

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House for taking questions this morning and we now, to backbench

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business, the motion on court closures.

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Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move the motion as on the

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order paper relating to court closures. I am grateful to the

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backbench business committee for allocating time for this debate. I

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requested this debate whether the honourable member for Wales and

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other for -- wet and other members because of the scale of the Court

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closure programme, which will the 86 chords and tribunal is closed,

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compounded by the closures during the last parliament, which saw 146

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chords cause. Second because of the level of concern expressed by

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colleagues across the House about the implications of the closure

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programme for access to justice and the number of flaws within the

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consultation process which provided the basis for the closure programme.

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Third, the closures and ends on the last sitting day before February

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said in a written statement. Adam Deputy Speaker, I feel strongly that

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both the skill of this closure programme and its implications and

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simple Asians mean that the resolution have been made in the

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House and that colleagues should have had the opportunity to raise

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issues about behalf of their constituents and raise questions

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about the planned closures and in fact about the time the announcement

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was made. I am pleased that we will have the opportunity to do this

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today. Courts have a very wide range of uses. If we consider the

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hierarchy of Crown Courts, County Courts can't Magistrates' Court,

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you'd chords, family courts and tribunal, the people who need to be

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able to access them include jurors, magistrates, victims and witnesses,

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families in the process of breaking up, a range of public sector staff

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working directly at the courts, but also bringing cases and acting as

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witnesses, members of the judiciary and individuals facing trial. It is

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easy to think of those accessing our courts primarily a suspected

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criminals but in reality, they are vital public service reaching a very

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wide range of people in their scope. And it is important that we remember

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this as we debate this closure programme. I am so grateful for her

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giving way so early in her speech. Would she agree ascetic areas are to

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lose their courts as a result of this decision that proper provision

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needs to be made not least for video conferencing, people living

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evidence, but also for local newspapers to be able to send a

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journalist for a particular day? -- if civic courts. Justice has to be

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seen to be done, as well is actually being done. I will come on to talk

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in a moment about the role of new technology and other forms of

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provision in addressing some of the issues presented by the closure

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programme. I give way. I thank her for giving way, and congratulate her

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for securing this debate today. All told the court in my constituency

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will not be causing, it will be taken on the burden from other court

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closures and buy one of the government's on assessments, people

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will have to travel over an hour to reach Willesden Magistrates' Court,

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which I think is a barrier to justice.

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I thank her for her intervention. That is a very valid set of points

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about both of the additional burden on courts which will have to absorb

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the workload of chords that locals but also on travel time, which is a

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very important issue, particularly for many vulnerable constituents. I

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will come on to talk about this. I do not have a court or tribunal in

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my constituency, but my constituents will be very much affected by the

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planned closure of Lambeth County Court. Almost half of the postcode

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areas covered fall within my constituency. I am grateful to the

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Minister for taking the time to meet with me during the competition

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process and subsequently for taking part in a debate specifically about

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Lambeth County Court. But Madam Deputy Speaker, despite this

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engagement, my concerns remain. In justifying the closures, the

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Minister refers a great deal to the modernisation of the justice system

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and the use of new technology, but there is great concern that these

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plans, the closure plans, appear to be putting the cart before the

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horse. Closing courts and tribunals without a clear plan for replacing

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the capacity that will be lost with new

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Speaker, the government should have brought to the House a comprehensive

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strategy for modernising our courts and tribunals to beat that for the

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21st century. The plan which sets out clearly what new technology can

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deliver for our justice system, the investment which needs to be made in

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order to deliver it and the savings which can be made in physical

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infrastructure as a consequence of the introduction of new technology.

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But there is no such plan. What the government has announced is a very

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significant closure programme, with the promise that after chords and

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tribunal sub-clause, pilots will take place and investment will be

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made to introduce new technology. This is a very risky way to treat

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our justice system. Access to justice is a vital principle in the

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UK's on written constitution. It was argued chairing the time that Lord

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Bingham was senior judge of appeal that access to justice is one of the

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eight sub role that make up the rule of law. He said the best is that

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means must be provided for resolving that without I have to cost and

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delay one of ideas several disputes which the parties are unable to

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resolve themselves. It recognises the right of wannabe did access to a

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court in the basic right protected by our own domestic law and, in my

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view, comprised within the principle of the rule of law.

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Lord Justice laws has said access to the courts is a constitutional

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right. In relation to the planned courts and tribunal closure

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programme, the government argued that it effective access to justice

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does not necessarily mean providing physical access to a building or

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require us to have a purpose-built court or tribunal in every local

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area. I contention is that this statement can only possibly be valid

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if the government can demonstrate that access is provided in a

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fail-safe way by other means. They simply cannot do this without

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setting out a clear strategy for how it will be delivered. The Minister

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has spoken about various things that they be possible, some of which are

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already happening in some locations. Video links for witnesses to provide

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evidence, facilities for filing papers online. There is no national

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standard and no plan for delivery. No assessment has been made of what

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court and tribunal services and facilities should be available to

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everyone in every area, which of these can reasonably be provided

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digitally and which could be provided and dedicated facilities.

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Let don't think there is much disabilities of the kind of things

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which might be done and it is impossible to make an assessment of

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the extent to which access to justice will be a proud -- provided

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at an appropriate level with digital technology until the government

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laser the comprehensive plan. In addition to the plan she is we all

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to me the plan to extend mobile coverage to many areas because in

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some of the rural areas where we have closures planned we don't have

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the system in place. He makes are very valuable point which reinforces

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the argument I am making. A and a plan that is proven and has been

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tested the government cannot rely on advances in technology to substitute

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for the closure of physical facilities. I congratulate her on

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securing this debate. The whole point of a Magistrates' Court system

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has been to have local people deciding on local crimes and without

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a proper plan we could see magistrates fundamentally

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withdrawing from areas with many communities having none whatsoever.

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He makes an excellent point which is about the long tradition we have in

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this country about the link between the justice system and the locality

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that it serves. I would like to turn to some of the specific concerns

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that have been raised about the consequences of the closures. The

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first concern is the straightforward issue of physical access to a court

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building for those who need to attend court either for the court

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hearings would instigate an administrative procedure such as

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applying in person for a stay of eviction. The response from the

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government to the consultation says that 97% of citizens will still be

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able to reach the required court within 60 minutes by car. This

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statement is simply not true. The date on which the government's

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responses based his travel time between court opens, not the travel

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time from homes to the courts which will the closest. On the basis of

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this data it is possible that the residents who currently lives within

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60 minutes of one court that he may not have to travel a further 60

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minutes beyond the course to to the nearest court. It is time for the

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government to undertake and published an analysis of the

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physical accessibility of courts based on the journey times faced by

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residents of postcode racers not from quarter court so that the

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impact of the closures plan can be properly understood and scrutinised.

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The second problem with the travel time data is that it relies too much

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on the private car as a mode of transport. Only half of households

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on low incomes own a car. Many of my constituents who have the attend

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court in relations to issues such as housing a bit run low incomes and I

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think the true -- same is true across the country. The response to

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the consultation does not consider the accessibility to courts by

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public transport or by bus, which is often the only mode of transport

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that residents on lower incomes can afford. I have looked at the travel

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times from part of my constituency from which residents will not have

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to travel from Lambeth to Wandsworth were some of the services will be

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provided. Many of my residents will face a journey of at least 60 minute

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she'd swayed by bus and in the worst-case scenario have four hour

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round trip. That is in London which has the public transport system in

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the UK. Journey times mean that some people people will not be able to

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two travel backwards and forwards to accord in a single day. She makes a

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very powerful point that will be resident with a lot of the members

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of villages in my constituency. It says in the library document that

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the percentage that would be able to reach court by public transport in

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60 minutes will be 15% in my constituency. This is of great

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concern to those who have the trauma of having to give evidence in it

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case of a crime against them. The Law Society has raised serious

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concerns that longer more expensive journey times will have on the

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justice system for jurors who are more likely to find justifiable

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reasons to postpone the service and for the additional cost that Her

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Majesty is courts and tribunal service will have to pay to

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compensate jurors. For witnesses, many of whom already take a good

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deal of persuasion and support in order to attend court and for

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vulnerable residents who are being taken to court in circumstances

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where life is already stressful he may find it -- they may find it

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extremely difficult to make to court and therefore have a fair hearing

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because they are the person to explain the circumstances. As a

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magistrate, I can attest to witnesses or sufferers of domestic

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violence or just people with chaotic lifestyles being completely put off

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by the extra travel that they will need to access justice. Resolution,

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which represents 6500 family lawyers and other professionals who are

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committed to a non-adversarial approach to family law and the

:20:47.:20:48.

resolution of family disputes say that the court closures will have a

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huge impact on our ability of a family to access justice. They say

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that the most affected will be the vulnerable. Requiring a victim of

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domestic abuse to travel further on public transport to apply for an

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injunction will act as a further disincentive. I would like to

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highlight three examples from my constituency caseload which

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illustrate the level of vulnerability of many people who

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have to access the court system. The first is a man who came to this

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country as an asylum seeker having been a child soldier in Nigeria. He

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is doing his utmost to find work and currently has a zero hours

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contracts. Sometimes his employer has worked for him, sometimes not.

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This is not within his control. The consequences that he is a

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fluctuating income which means that intermittently he has apply for J SA

:21:47.:21:52.

and housing benefit. The delays in processing his J SA Lymington

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sometimes his Housing Benefit is frozen. This causes rent arrears and

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has been served on occasion. None of this is his fault. He is a man doing

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everything he can to make the best life in a country he never imagined

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himself finding himself in. The additional expense and stress to

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travel a long distance to access court is not something that we

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should be asking him to bear. Another constituent is recently

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widowed. Husband was a social housing tenant and in order for her

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to succeed to the tenancy she needed to provide proof of his death. But

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there was an administrative mistake with the death certificate which

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caused a delay which meant that her landlord commenced eviction

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proceedings. She lives in the furthest flung part of my consistent

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-- consistency -- constituency in regard to access to court. The third

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case highlights some of the wider problems with the justice system.

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The constituent is in his earpiece. He had suffered anti-social

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behaviour from is upstairs neighbour for many years causing him and his

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wife great distress and sometimes leading to him is sleeping in his

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car. His council land or did everything possible to gather

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evidence and commence eviction proceedings against neighbour. It

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took months for the case to come to court and when it did the police

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failed to turn up to give evidence and the case had to be adjourned.

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This situation would have been compounded even further by a longer

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journey time or by moving the proceedings to a court which did not

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have the capacity to absorb additional work. Very often the

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circumstances which lead to somebody having to attend court involved

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personal sadness and many people who have to attend court a very

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vulnerable. Fulfilling the obligation to make a justice system

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accessible bus involved thinking about the considerable challenges

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that are most vulnerable residents face and designing a system around

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these challenges, not around residents who have the most

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capacity. The closure programme has the potential to have significant

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hidden costs for the wider public sector and these have not considered

:24:05.:24:10.

or scrutinised at all during the course of the consultation process

:24:11.:24:13.

with the government's response to it. The Law Society is highlighted

:24:14.:24:17.

the additional costs associated with prison and probation staff having to

:24:18.:24:21.

transport offenders longer distances. There may be additional

:24:22.:24:29.

transportation costs for the police. There will be increased costs for

:24:30.:24:34.

councils as social workers and housing officers are forced to

:24:35.:24:37.

travel longer distances and spend more time away from the day-to-day

:24:38.:24:41.

duties in order to provide evidence in court. There are already

:24:42.:24:45.

frustration within the justice system. Many lawyers I have spoken

:24:46.:24:50.

to who work in London pride the experience of using the Central

:24:51.:24:52.

London County Court since it moved to shed premises with the Royal

:24:53.:24:56.

Courts of Justice. They describe accord which is completely

:24:57.:24:59.

overwhelmed with the volume of work, such that is beginning to resemble

:25:00.:25:06.

the Chancery Court in bleak house. The loss of piety and others have

:25:07.:25:10.

raised concerns about the impact of the closure programme on court staff

:25:11.:25:15.

in a context where they are -- where there are already frustrations about

:25:16.:25:18.

administrative problems and delays. These problems would be made worse

:25:19.:25:23.

if the scorcher plumed and workloads transferred to other courts that are

:25:24.:25:28.

already operating at high capacity. Many magistrates forgot the work is

:25:29.:25:32.

a very local form of public service. There is a strong connection between

:25:33.:25:36.

the community they know and their role in ensuring justice for the

:25:37.:25:40.

community. There are serious concerns that having farty records

:25:41.:25:44.

requiring some magistrate should travel long distances and ordered to

:25:45.:25:48.

serve breaks the strong tradition we have in this country of justice

:25:49.:25:52.

system which is rooted in the individual spatial it serves. There

:25:53.:25:57.

is potentially a significant impact on many solicitor schemes. Concerns

:25:58.:26:04.

have been raised to be about the sustainability of many duty

:26:05.:26:06.

solicitor schemes that have already been stretch to the limit by cuts in

:26:07.:26:11.

legal aid. Certainly, the solicitors who work in my local area have said

:26:12.:26:16.

that many of them would be forced to give up duty solicitor work if they

:26:17.:26:19.

have to travel further to attend court, such as the marginal

:26:20.:26:23.

viability of the scheme already. Finally, I want to turn to the

:26:24.:26:27.

detail of the closure proposals and to highlight just a few of the ways

:26:28.:26:30.

in which I believe the closure programme to be flawed. The proposal

:26:31.:26:34.

to close Birmingham youth court would have a very significant impact

:26:35.:26:39.

on young defendants who would then have two appear in an adult court in

:26:40.:26:44.

breach of the government's statutory and international obligations. I

:26:45.:26:49.

wonder how this proposal was ever brought forward and why these issues

:26:50.:26:52.

were not anticipated underdressed. The proposal to close our brand-new

:26:53.:26:59.

fit for purpose court in Rotherham, which contains three different

:27:00.:27:08.

courts at a time and in a time when child protection issues are at the

:27:09.:27:12.

forefront of everybody's mind is quite simply very difficult to

:27:13.:27:16.

comprehend. In this tour, the proposed closure of the court in

:27:17.:27:20.

auroral area with very bad public transport services at a time in

:27:21.:27:24.

which the local population is about to expand significantly due to the

:27:25.:27:27.

designation of it as a garden time by the government is simply

:27:28.:27:32.

short-term missed. In my local area, the closure of Lambeth County Court

:27:33.:27:39.

is problematic. It is leased to the courts and tribunals service with

:27:40.:27:41.

nine years left to run on the lease. As such, there was no large capital

:27:42.:27:45.

sum to be derived from the sale of the site. The lawyer that I have

:27:46.:27:49.

spoken to who use it said that it functions extremely well as a

:27:50.:27:53.

specialist housing court. I appreciate that as a consequence of

:27:54.:27:57.

the representations that I am others made during the consultation

:27:58.:28:00.

process, housing possessions hearings will not my move six miles

:28:01.:28:05.

away but to Camberwell, which is much closer and this is welcome

:28:06.:28:09.

news. There remain concerned about the victims of domestic violence who

:28:10.:28:12.

will still have to travel to Wandsworth, and about the way the

:28:13.:28:16.

move to Camberwell will actually work in practice. There is time

:28:17.:28:21.

within the current lease to make a proper plan for Lambeth, to work out

:28:22.:28:25.

the role that new technology can play in making our justice system

:28:26.:28:28.

more accessible, to work at the physical space that is necessary to

:28:29.:28:32.

accommodate an efficient court and to plan property for the transition.

:28:33.:28:36.

There is no evidence in the closure programme that any detailed

:28:37.:28:40.

feasibility work has been undertaken to explore lower-cost ways of

:28:41.:28:42.

accommodating court services locally.

:28:43.:28:48.

Although search options are mentioned, they should have been

:28:49.:28:54.

explained in detail before the closure programme was finalised. The

:28:55.:28:58.

accessibility of our justice system and the way in which your dreams are

:28:59.:29:03.

most vulnerable residents is a mark of our civilisation. Too many people

:29:04.:29:06.

across the country have raised concerns that the Government's

:29:07.:29:12.

proposed closures will have an unacceptable impact on vulnerable TD

:29:13.:29:16.

-- people, will present additional costs to the other parts of the

:29:17.:29:19.

public sector which have not been accounted for and will make our

:29:20.:29:24.

justice system less accessible. I accept new technology may have a

:29:25.:29:27.

role to play in creating a justice system which has picked the purpose

:29:28.:29:30.

for the 21st-century as well as saving costs but we have no plan for

:29:31.:29:35.

the Government as to how this will be achieved. I am urging the

:29:36.:29:38.

Government to rethink their approach and to come back to the House with a

:29:39.:29:42.

plan which addresses the concerns which have been raised and balances

:29:43.:29:47.

savings is to be made from the fiscal quarter state with investment

:29:48.:29:52.

in technology to mitigate the impact. The question is as on the

:29:53.:30:01.

order paper. The proposals to closed courthouses across the country, they

:30:02.:30:08.

identified the court in Buxton for closure. Is that became apparent,

:30:09.:30:14.

this is the fourth time I have spoken to this -- to address this. I

:30:15.:30:22.

had been comments made about the timings but I have to say from my

:30:23.:30:28.

experience, the Minister is exemplary in his transparency and

:30:29.:30:35.

consideration of individual members. He has met with me on several

:30:36.:30:39.

occasions and we have had a Westminster Hall debate on Buxton

:30:40.:30:44.

and my honourable friend from Burton had a similar one. We have had a

:30:45.:30:51.

fair run at this. I was opposed to the closures in Buxton, particularly

:30:52.:30:56.

as the fact that the alternative was to send everybody to Chesterfield

:30:57.:30:59.

because it was in Derbyshire. For those in the Chamber you want the

:31:00.:31:04.

geography of Derbyshire and the High Peak, clue is in the name. Getting

:31:05.:31:10.

from Buxton to Chesterfield is not easy and I was in the constituency a

:31:11.:31:15.

couple of weeks ago and Buxton had about six or seven inches of snow in

:31:16.:31:20.

a day. Our people would have got to Chesterfield in that situation would

:31:21.:31:25.

have been impossible. I got stuck in Bamford bit isn't as Forest

:31:26.:31:30.

Chesterfield. I was concerned about this and I thought it was wrong and

:31:31.:31:34.

said so at the time. The consultation document itself, I had

:31:35.:31:43.

much of this recounting what has happened. It is important for some

:31:44.:31:47.

context on it. The consultation document on research -- relates to

:31:48.:31:52.

Buxton. It was the worst consultation document I had seen in

:31:53.:31:56.

many a year both as a member of this house and a member of my local

:31:57.:32:01.

council. It was riddled with errors, falsehood and mistakes. There was

:32:02.:32:05.

discussion and I used some phraseology that you shouldn't use

:32:06.:32:08.

as a member of Parliament because I just thought it was so woeful. After

:32:09.:32:15.

discussion, they admitted there were some mistakes in this document but

:32:16.:32:24.

they pursued the same endgame. The decision has been made to close

:32:25.:32:28.

Buxton. I do regret that decision but the decision has been made and I

:32:29.:32:31.

don't think we can revisit that decision here today. However, at the

:32:32.:32:36.

time, with discussions I had come the issue of Chesterfield, I was

:32:37.:32:43.

looking at the compromise and heretics is the art of compromise. I

:32:44.:32:48.

was pleased or reluctant to accept... I cannot the decision but

:32:49.:32:54.

I will accept the decision because following discussions with the

:32:55.:32:57.

minister, the minister did listen to what I said and the points I made

:32:58.:33:04.

regarding communication, sorry, commuting to each -- Chesterfield.

:33:05.:33:19.

The decision was taken to keep Stockport and Stockport is a

:33:20.:33:24.

separate county but it is a lot easier to get to from the High Peak

:33:25.:33:31.

and Macclesfield where they faced with a similar challenge. I am

:33:32.:33:38.

concerned... I give way. Interesting hearing the tale that they on the

:33:39.:33:42.

mall member is saying. I accept what he says but the proposals are put to

:33:43.:33:47.

him, they are dismissing what logical proposals for Durham which

:33:48.:33:51.

would make it easier for my constituents to travel and it has

:33:52.:33:55.

been ignored completely. Whether he has more power over the Minister, I

:33:56.:34:02.

am not sure. I will respond to that without sounding pig-headed. I can't

:34:03.:34:11.

comment why. I don't know the ins and outs of Durham but I have felt

:34:12.:34:15.

that I put forward a coherent argument. To be fair... I am

:34:16.:34:22.

grateful. He is making a passionate speech but I want to put on the

:34:23.:34:27.

record that if people look at the closures and those courts that have

:34:28.:34:30.

been left open or whether a change is made, it has been across the

:34:31.:34:36.

benches and it is not exclusive that they are giving preferential

:34:37.:34:39.

treatment to those on their the debate, she is not from my

:34:40.:34:50.

benches. I listened to her proposals. Proposals were changed

:34:51.:34:56.

and my honourable friend will know Stockport is held by a Labour

:34:57.:35:02.

member. The point I made was not to close Buxton and it has been closed.

:35:03.:35:11.

I didn't get a partial, sorry, complete success. In the response to

:35:12.:35:15.

the consultation, the decision says and I will quote, move the work load

:35:16.:35:21.

to Chesterfield justice Centre and Stockport magistrates and County

:35:22.:35:25.

Courts. I have a concern and that is how much is going to wear. That is

:35:26.:35:30.

something I want to flag up today. I don't want the odd case going to

:35:31.:35:33.

Stockport to placate one awkward member of Parliament. I want to

:35:34.:35:39.

raise the response to the proposals and the consultation. I have a

:35:40.:35:42.

judgment over this because of my views of the way the consultation is

:35:43.:35:47.

done and I now look at the response to the consultation and yet again I

:35:48.:35:51.

just think there is a hidden agenda that the officials are letting the

:35:52.:35:55.

Minister down. This serious flaws in the response, the response document

:35:56.:36:01.

I have here, I will give you an example. It nowhere in this response

:36:02.:36:06.

carries the comments made by High Peak Borough Council. They have 43

:36:07.:36:10.

members from across the political spectrum, all electrodes and they

:36:11.:36:18.

discussed this at council will stop -- all elected. That representation

:36:19.:36:22.

is not referred to anywhere in the official response to the

:36:23.:36:27.

consultation. To me it seems as though the officials didn't like

:36:28.:36:29.

what the council said so they didn't put it in. They have either ignored

:36:30.:36:34.

it or treated it with disdain. In a time when across political parties

:36:35.:36:40.

we are seeking people to stand for public office at councils and

:36:41.:36:43.

councillors go to meetings, they make their opinions well known and

:36:44.:36:50.

then they are ignored. It does increase the lingo, what is the

:36:51.:36:55.

point? I may be cynical but were they not mention is because they

:36:56.:36:59.

didn't fit with what home they wanted. The decision has been made

:37:00.:37:06.

and it will be implemented. The closure of Buxton Court and the

:37:07.:37:11.

official documents is in marked and scheduled to take place as we are

:37:12.:37:14.

speaking today between February and June this year. I am told that

:37:15.:37:22.

because the argument was given that we can't move it out to Stockport

:37:23.:37:28.

because stop 40s in Cheshire, it goes across counties, these

:37:29.:37:35.

discussions we have had. -- because Stockport is in Cheshire. If they

:37:36.:37:42.

were to send out of county, there is some administrative actions that had

:37:43.:37:47.

to take place. I am urging that they take place. I am not standing to be

:37:48.:37:52.

part of the Minister's fan club but he has been fair with me. I am

:37:53.:38:01.

talking about public money. This is why I have said they should keep

:38:02.:38:05.

Buxton open. I am concerned the Minister has been let down by his

:38:06.:38:09.

officials here. They were let down because the consultation was flawed

:38:10.:38:15.

and wrong. He has been let down because what I felt was arrogance

:38:16.:38:19.

and a willingness to accept the mistakes, now we look at the

:38:20.:38:23.

response document and that is highly selective. I feel they are letting

:38:24.:38:27.

him down again. I have doubts of their motivation. The Courts service

:38:28.:38:31.

have been given a decision they don't want and from where I am

:38:32.:38:38.

sitting, I may be cynical, they seem to be implementing the decisions

:38:39.:38:42.

that the Minister has made. While this delay is there, given the

:38:43.:38:46.

courts are due to close imminently, the work has to go to Chesterfield

:38:47.:38:51.

which is what the service wanted. That was their intention and the

:38:52.:38:54.

longer that goes on, the harder it will become in my view to implement

:38:55.:38:59.

the Minister's decision to stand it to Stockport. That is what I am

:39:00.:39:07.

concerned about. It is through his determination, contrary to what has

:39:08.:39:12.

been said, his willingness to listen to honourable members and to listen

:39:13.:39:16.

to me on this occasion to move work to Stockport. I applaud him for it.

:39:17.:39:23.

Not sending everything to Chesterfield but to Stockport, that

:39:24.:39:26.

is what we want. From the outside looking in, it appears to be the

:39:27.:39:33.

officials wanted it their own way. I thank the Minister for being willing

:39:34.:39:40.

to assess alternative potential options. Including talking to my

:39:41.:39:45.

council but in criticising the officials for failure to include,

:39:46.:39:50.

are you not questioning the Minister's ability to oversee the

:39:51.:39:54.

department? Not at all because he has done that making the decisions

:39:55.:39:58.

he has made. The officials want of Buxton close and everything shipped

:39:59.:40:01.

over to Chesterfield. I want to Buxton opened but the compromise

:40:02.:40:08.

from the Chamber and Westminster Hall. It strikes me and I may be

:40:09.:40:19.

wrong, but the officials wanted it a certain way and they didn't get it

:40:20.:40:27.

and buy tardiness, they showing -- they are showing another way of

:40:28.:40:32.

getting it. All I would ask today is that the decision has been made and

:40:33.:40:38.

we have had debates today -- before. It is still a good debate to have

:40:39.:40:43.

and we are the Thursday before the Easter recess and there is a good

:40:44.:40:49.

attendance. I would ask for him to do three things. He will look at

:40:50.:40:53.

this issue with a matter of urgency to see if there is any more

:40:54.:40:57.

administrative work that needs to be done that can ensure that the

:40:58.:41:04.

decision he made to move the work and the vast majority of work, not

:41:05.:41:12.

just an odd case to make me happy, he can make sure if there is any

:41:13.:41:16.

administrative work that it will be done quickly for the peace of mind

:41:17.:41:21.

of my constituents and the magistrates and in the whole of this

:41:22.:41:24.

we need to remember the magistrates who do valuable public service for

:41:25.:41:30.

very little recompense. I know if it did go to Chesterfield we may lose

:41:31.:41:33.

magistrates from the bench. If that has to be going -- done, can we do

:41:34.:41:44.

it? By sending work to Stockport, we have to pay of tension to the work

:41:45.:41:49.

of the officials. I hate to be critical but they seem to be

:41:50.:41:53.

following a different agenda from the one that the Minister wanted and

:41:54.:42:01.

one that other people wanted. If you could give reassurances in his

:42:02.:42:06.

closing remarks, I will be very grateful. Like the member for High

:42:07.:42:14.

Peak, I commend the member for Dulwich and West Norwood that

:42:15.:42:16.

calling this debate. I also have to say I agree with the member for High

:42:17.:42:21.

Peak that this was a flawed consultation and a flawed decision,

:42:22.:42:25.

particularly in relation to the Bridgend Magistrates' Court and law

:42:26.:42:30.

courts which housed a state-of-the-art court and facility

:42:31.:42:34.

and which the public purse had invested hundreds of thousands of

:42:35.:42:39.

pounds in modernisation and renovation will stop all to be just

:42:40.:42:45.

thrown away. Following the closure, the court civil family and tribunal

:42:46.:42:49.

work will go to told Chester and the magistrates work will go to Cardiff

:42:50.:42:53.

and the Vale Court. This local example will destroy the appalling

:42:54.:42:57.

consequences of the Government's irresponsible decision to close 86

:42:58.:43:01.

courts and tribunal 's across England and Wales as well as a total

:43:02.:43:04.

failure to understand the geography of Wales. There was no surprise

:43:05.:43:10.

there as my honourable friend has said in front of me, but

:43:11.:43:16.

realistically in South Wales you have the opportunity of moving north

:43:17.:43:21.

or south to get onto the M4and then you can travel east or west. Until

:43:22.:43:27.

you reach the M4, you have very few chances of moving east or west. The

:43:28.:43:32.

movement of these courts is going to have huge problems in relation to

:43:33.:43:35.

people's capacity to reach these new venues.

:43:36.:43:43.

Would my honourable friend also agree that in measures which have

:43:44.:43:50.

been taken, is that everyone has access to a private car,, they take

:43:51.:44:02.

no account of the time it would take to get to court using public

:44:03.:44:07.

transport. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention, he

:44:08.:44:11.

makes the most valuable point. Yet again this is a government which

:44:12.:44:16.

fails to recognise the needs of the poor and disadvantaged, particularly

:44:17.:44:20.

those who are victims of crime and witnesses to crime and their

:44:21.:44:23.

capacity to access the justice system. By car the journey from

:44:24.:44:28.

Bridgend to Cardiff can take an hour. Parking is a nightmare at many

:44:29.:44:34.

times of the day and is very expensive. Port Talbot Justice

:44:35.:44:40.

Centre is just under 15 miles away, depending where you are in my

:44:41.:44:45.

constituency it takes a minimum of 30 minutes by car. For those people

:44:46.:44:50.

on low income, who disproportionately depend on court

:44:51.:44:53.

and Tribunal services access to the sites are going to be more timely

:44:54.:45:00.

and more expensive. Car ownership in poor communities in Wales is

:45:01.:45:04.

particularly low. Two thirds and I hope the minister is listening to

:45:05.:45:10.

this, two thirds of those of working age benefits do not have access to a

:45:11.:45:15.

car. The majority of people travelling from the agenda to

:45:16.:45:20.

Cardiff or Port Talbot to access services will depend on expensive

:45:21.:45:24.

public transport links. The timetables of which are a nightmare.

:45:25.:45:31.

If you have to be in court by 9am, 10am, you have childcare

:45:32.:45:35.

commitments, caring commitments, you have a disability, or god forbid you

:45:36.:45:40.

miss the bus. Or indeed the bus does not turn up. The best journey from

:45:41.:45:46.

rural areas in my constituency to Cardiff is indirect and can take

:45:47.:45:50.

over two hours if you're trying to travel to a court and that is before

:45:51.:45:54.

you get to the bus station in Cardiff which is some considerable

:45:55.:45:59.

distance from the court. They need to travel such long distances on a

:46:00.:46:02.

regular basis will disrupt the work of my local police service, my

:46:03.:46:08.

probationary rehabilitation and child protection officers and

:46:09.:46:10.

inconvenience many local groups who offer services to those needing help

:46:11.:46:14.

in the court system, including witnesses. I think we ought to be

:46:15.:46:26.

looking for more at protecting witnesses and helping witnesses. It

:46:27.:46:29.

is one thing to say you don't mind inconveniencing someone who has

:46:30.:46:34.

still not been found guilty, or who is attending court because of their

:46:35.:46:39.

need to support the criminal justice service. We have to make sure that

:46:40.:46:44.

it is easy for people to come forward to be witnesses and it does

:46:45.:46:48.

not build an additional burden into their daily lives. It's going to be

:46:49.:46:55.

expensive, burdensome to secure transport for defendants from

:46:56.:47:05.

custody and the brand-new state-of-the-art INAUDIBLE

:47:06.:47:09.

Built in Bridgend. The police will spend hours transporting people up

:47:10.:47:12.

and down the M4 when they could have accesses the local court in

:47:13.:47:17.

Bridgend. Park prison in Bridgend will have to transport prisoners up

:47:18.:47:20.

and down the M4 instead of straight down the ten minute journey into the

:47:21.:47:28.

centre Bridgend. The transport costs are going to be absolutely

:47:29.:47:31.

ridiculous and it's going to transport, the Ministry of Justice

:47:32.:47:37.

is transporting the cost from its own budget to another budget. The

:47:38.:47:43.

integrity of the British justice system is at stake here. It evolved

:47:44.:47:49.

over the centuries and has remained remarkably sensitive to instinctive

:47:50.:47:51.

formulations and priorities of local communities. The close proximity of

:47:52.:47:57.

the magistrate system to people's daily lives is at the root of the

:47:58.:48:04.

lip authority of the system. No attempt seems to have been made to

:48:05.:48:09.

ascertain if magistrates in Bridgend will continue to serve in their

:48:10.:48:14.

posts. When closures go ahead. I have to tell the Minister, local

:48:15.:48:17.

magistrates have contacted me and said they don't think they will be

:48:18.:48:23.

able to carry on. Because of health, because of work commitments and

:48:24.:48:27.

because of family issues. The additional travelling time and the

:48:28.:48:31.

additional commitment in hours of work is going to make it impossible

:48:32.:48:35.

for many of them to continue. I think that is a huge loss and a huge

:48:36.:48:42.

loss to the local communities sense of engagement in the criminal

:48:43.:48:46.

justice system and the civil justice system. The quality of justice as it

:48:47.:48:52.

is administered and implement it in local communities is also threatened

:48:53.:48:55.

by the decision because the additional caseloads of both

:48:56.:48:59.

Bridgend and Caerphilly will push Cardiff court 's capacity to the

:49:00.:49:02.

limit. The closure could lead to a heavy reliance on electronic

:49:03.:49:08.

medication. I know some people see elegant medication as the way

:49:09.:49:12.

forward. Again I have to say they don't live in Wales -- some people

:49:13.:49:17.

see electronic communication as the way forward. Broadband communication

:49:18.:49:26.

is an nightmare. I live on the coast and I have to tell you my escape

:49:27.:49:29.

communication is not good, often throughout the day with 180 degrees

:49:30.:49:37.

of the sea in front of us, broadband communication is not at its best.

:49:38.:49:44.

This technology is untested, unreliable and their use in court

:49:45.:49:47.

challenges the important usable of our justice system, the right to

:49:48.:49:52.

fair trial and the right to face your accusers. Clear integrity

:49:53.:50:04.

shouldn't is integral and there is no substitute for face-to-face

:50:05.:50:09.

dialogue. -- clear communications are integral. The Law Society for

:50:10.:50:17.

England and Wales has registered serious concerns about the use of

:50:18.:50:22.

video link technology in magistrate court trials. Magistrates have also

:50:23.:50:25.

voiced concerns that it would be difficult for a judge to maintain

:50:26.:50:29.

order in the court if defendants and witnesses are not present in person.

:50:30.:50:33.

There are also doubts about whether the broadband connection in Bridgend

:50:34.:50:38.

is of sufficient quality to sustain a video link. I fear that some of my

:50:39.:50:45.

constituents of the cheapest and simplest option will be to plead

:50:46.:50:52.

guilty rather than face the difficulties of navigating the

:50:53.:50:55.

complexities, the local transport and electronic communication systems

:50:56.:51:00.

and to face the disruption in their daily lives and the disruption of

:51:01.:51:03.

their family lives and commitments to actually travel. I feel many

:51:04.:51:08.

people will, when witnessing a crime, say I don't know if I want to

:51:09.:51:12.

come forward as a witness if it means I have the additional time and

:51:13.:51:19.

cost burden as a witness. But courts alone deliver justice. Orbiting

:51:20.:51:25.

courts are networks of organisations which provide integrated probation,

:51:26.:51:31.

rehabilitation and victim support services. Before the trial opens

:51:32.:51:35.

they do the hard work of preparing people who are unfamiliar with the

:51:36.:51:40.

courts system to stand as witnesses or as defendants. After the case is

:51:41.:51:45.

closed they help to translate and implement rulings and to monitor the

:51:46.:51:53.

impact. The key to their success is the local knowledge and the close

:51:54.:51:57.

working relationship they have with other service providers. Removing

:51:58.:52:01.

courts from communities will fragment and weaken these complex

:52:02.:52:05.

and closely knit networks with serious implications for the quality

:52:06.:52:09.

of local justice and the cohesion and safety of local communities. I

:52:10.:52:15.

also have to say I have great concerns about the serious impact on

:52:16.:52:19.

my local solicitors firms. Bridgend law courts and the whole network of

:52:20.:52:26.

chords in Bridgend is often the reason the based in my constituency

:52:27.:52:32.

and I fear many will close, reducing access to legal advice for many

:52:33.:52:37.

people living across my constituency. The town will also

:52:38.:52:42.

lose many high-paid, skilled and well-paid jobs and the courts bring

:52:43.:52:48.

people from the surrounding area into the town. The closure will

:52:49.:52:51.

affect the retail service sector of the local community and contribute

:52:52.:53:02.

to the degree and immigration -- degradation of the town centre. It

:53:03.:53:06.

will destabilise the community and undermine local confidence in the

:53:07.:53:10.

justice system for a generation. The decision reflects the priorities of

:53:11.:53:15.

the Department which is isolated in Westminster, fails to take into

:53:16.:53:19.

account the geographic and social mix of Wales. There is little

:53:20.:53:25.

understanding of local communities and how they work and it will erode

:53:26.:53:30.

public trust in our legal and political institutions. I urge the

:53:31.:53:34.

Minister to reverse this decision in relation to Bridgend. I am sure it

:53:35.:53:38.

is not too late and I hope he has been listening. Thank you. I

:53:39.:53:47.

congratulate the honourable member for securing this debate and we have

:53:48.:53:51.

had powerful speech is already on the matter. I can say I don't rise

:53:52.:53:56.

to raise any constituency point, I am glad to say that the excellent

:53:57.:54:00.

Magistrates' Court we have in Bromley continues in operation and

:54:01.:54:06.

is busy. But I am concerned as chair of the justice select committee

:54:07.:54:09.

about the issue because it's a matter that has been raised in our

:54:10.:54:13.

discussions both in this Parliament and the previous one on number of

:54:14.:54:22.

occasions. It raises its head when we look at other important issues

:54:23.:54:27.

which I will come to. To give burners to the minister who I must

:54:28.:54:30.

say I have always found to be the model of courtesy and openness in

:54:31.:54:35.

his dealings with me and the select committee, there is a balance which

:54:36.:54:39.

has to be struck. There have been court closures throughout most of my

:54:40.:54:46.

life as a practising lawyer and then as a member of Parliament. As a

:54:47.:54:50.

young barrister I cut my teeth going to courts in villages in Essex where

:54:51.:54:57.

you had caught sitting perhaps once a month -- had courts sitting. I

:54:58.:55:03.

cannot say at the end of the day the quality of justice was permanently

:55:04.:55:07.

and wholly undermined by their closures. Let me make this point and

:55:08.:55:12.

then I will come on. The point I will make is you do have to get a

:55:13.:55:16.

sense of balance and I think that is the point the honourable member is

:55:17.:55:21.

about to make and later on will say something I agree with them. I am

:55:22.:55:25.

certain that will be the case but he's quite right, in the last

:55:26.:55:29.

parliament there was a big review of courts and some court closures and

:55:30.:55:32.

the ones in my constituency we were told by the government at that time

:55:33.:55:37.

that they were needed in the community. Nothing has changed. It

:55:38.:55:41.

is just the government attitude which has changed, when it comes to

:55:42.:55:44.

local justice nothing has changed at all. I understand the point being

:55:45.:55:50.

made about particularly rule areas but I must say in fairness that

:55:51.:55:54.

there have been programmes of court closures under Labour governments

:55:55.:55:58.

just as much as under Conservative governments so this is not an issue

:55:59.:56:02.

where any one party can claim advantage or suggest they are more

:56:03.:56:06.

or less committed to the very fair point he makes about access to

:56:07.:56:11.

justice. There is the issue about balancing up what is largely a

:56:12.:56:14.

centrally funded service with local needs and I think that is what we

:56:15.:56:18.

need to deal with and that is the issue which is particularly been

:56:19.:56:21.

raised with us in the Justice select committee. Also there to say that he

:56:22.:56:27.

is quite right when he refers to the comments of Lord Bingham of Cornhill

:56:28.:56:32.

and his book is something that ought to be compulsory reading for pretty

:56:33.:56:36.

much every member of either house here. It is remarkably concise even

:56:37.:56:43.

though it is written by a distinguished lawyer. But it is

:56:44.:56:47.

worth bearing in mind that the common law doctrine of accessibility

:56:48.:56:52.

was drawn up at a time when actually there were far fewer courts and

:56:53.:56:55.

distances between them were in fact much greater and public transport

:56:56.:57:00.

virtually nonexistent and journeys much longer. Everything has to be

:57:01.:57:04.

put into context and is not an absolute, it is getting the balance

:57:05.:57:06.

right number of honourable members are

:57:07.:57:12.

raising. There were caught closure programmes under Labour governments

:57:13.:57:17.

and the most recent set were those part of the argument has been the

:57:18.:57:32.

needs and the pressure on public finances to get maximum value for

:57:33.:57:36.

money which is understandable. It is also understandable there has been a

:57:37.:57:41.

decline in the utilisation of courts because there has been a reduction

:57:42.:57:49.

in crime, something in the order of 43% I am told of utilisation across

:57:50.:57:56.

the Magistrate Court estate. Some of the Magistrate Courts I can remember

:57:57.:58:03.

where in poor condition, old, ill-equipped, did not have the

:58:04.:58:07.

facilities to deal with the separation of witnesses, victims,

:58:08.:58:12.

legal advertisers that we would wish to see. Not all closures are bad and

:58:13.:58:20.

there has to be a process of renewal and sometimes of consolidation. What

:58:21.:58:21.

did concern... I will once. I am sorry to intervene but the

:58:22.:58:33.

point I was making once we have spent hundreds of thousands of

:58:34.:58:43.

pounds in Bridgend on making it making it viable for the future. I

:58:44.:58:54.

will not go into individual cases. What is important is this. In

:58:55.:59:02.

October of 2015 on the back of that 2010/14 closure problem, we had

:59:03.:59:14.

evidence from that. There were the reform programmes undertaken in the

:59:15.:59:19.

first Parliament. We're asked what progress had been made... We asked

:59:20.:59:38.

about what fro Gress -- what progress. It is worse when it

:59:39.:59:49.

happens here but we will allow the gentleman to continue. It is worse

:59:50.:59:57.

anyway and that is the honest truth. There is some important information

:59:58.:00:00.

that we got. We wanted to find out what progress had been made in

:00:01.:00:04.

selling off the courts that had been closed as part of the programme and

:00:05.:00:10.

we were told that at that time of October last year, ten court

:00:11.:00:17.

buildings remains -- remain unsolved. It would be helpful if the

:00:18.:00:20.

Minister can update the House as to what the current position is in

:00:21.:00:25.

relation to those. If courts are to be closed, it is important since one

:00:26.:00:28.

of the prime arguments is the need to make value for money and they

:00:29.:00:35.

should be disposed of in a timely manner. There is no virtue in

:00:36.:00:42.

continuing to expend money on moth malt -- on mothballing unused

:00:43.:00:45.

buildings. I have the Minister will be able to help. There is the point

:00:46.:00:54.

and I agree about this. The issue of physical proximity and journey times

:00:55.:00:57.

is not something that is purely unique to rural areas where we had

:00:58.:01:03.

previous court closures and amalgamation programmes in London

:01:04.:01:09.

under the previous Government. I was making a point to make a journey in

:01:10.:01:12.

peak time from south-east London to Wells Street where family work was

:01:13.:01:19.

centralised was probably going to take an hour and a half on any view.

:01:20.:01:25.

If you are dealing with care cases and family cases, people in a

:01:26.:01:28.

vulnerable state, that was an unfair burden. The issue of longer travel

:01:29.:01:41.

times has been raised with us. In particular in relation to our

:01:42.:01:43.

inquiry which we are undertaking into the role of the magistracy. The

:01:44.:01:51.

point there is this. There is a balance to be struck between

:01:52.:01:55.

efficiency of the system and localness of justice. We recently

:01:56.:02:01.

had evidence from the National bench chairman's Forum. It is the

:02:02.:02:07.

representative body of the chairs of benches. They did express concern

:02:08.:02:12.

about this. There was a representative in North Wales who

:02:13.:02:17.

made the same point that the honourable men but has made about

:02:18.:02:25.

the difficulty of getting mobile coverage in very rural areas. -- --

:02:26.:02:34.

honourable member has made. If you are going to amalgamate courts in

:02:35.:02:38.

that area it is important to get the technology right and in place first

:02:39.:02:43.

so it can be done. The other point that is a matter of concern was

:02:44.:02:49.

raised by magistrates in written evidence. It was that the worry that

:02:50.:02:55.

there would be a concentration of courts in more urban areas in the

:02:56.:02:59.

towns and there will be a temptation for magistrates to be drawn from

:03:00.:03:08.

those urban areas. It could lead to under representation of rural areas

:03:09.:03:11.

on the benches. That is a legitimate point that has been raised with us

:03:12.:03:17.

by magistrates themselves. There is also a point made that we need to

:03:18.:03:25.

bear in mind that larger benches and some benches are going up to 1000

:03:26.:03:30.

magistrates also commonplace much greater burdens upon the chair of

:03:31.:03:34.

the bench and we have to think about what support can be given to those

:03:35.:03:38.

chairing large fences with considerable workloads in the

:03:39.:03:41.

Ministry matters that were not previously envisaged. Important

:03:42.:03:50.

areas it is relevant. From the evidence we heard, the senior

:03:51.:03:56.

judiciary are much more positive about the opportunities that arise

:03:57.:04:00.

from using digital and modern technology. That can be a means of

:04:01.:04:05.

alleviating some of the pressures that arise from court processes. The

:04:06.:04:10.

Lord Chief Justice gave evidence to us about digitisation in the core

:04:11.:04:14.

service on the 23rd of February and he praised the approach that Her

:04:15.:04:18.

Majesty's courts and tribunal's service were building their digital

:04:19.:04:25.

cases to unit by unit rather than non-monolithic single contract. It

:04:26.:04:28.

is right to give praise where that is due but he was alert to the issue

:04:29.:04:33.

of digital exclusion needing to be dealt with as we take this forward.

:04:34.:04:37.

We have heard evidence from some of the senior judiciary on this point.

:04:38.:04:44.

The master, Lord Dyson, was recognising there is value to be had

:04:45.:04:49.

in my tea being used to overcome the access to court issues also made the

:04:50.:04:55.

point that the Government track record is not exactly shiny. The

:04:56.:05:02.

President of the family division was pointing out that the real

:05:03.:05:04.

opportunities for reducing the burden is on a difficult time of

:05:05.:05:11.

their life dealing with the digitised divorce service was also

:05:12.:05:14.

concerned that there should be proper grow -- proper progress. He

:05:15.:05:19.

was disappointed with the progress so far. There were also reservations

:05:20.:05:27.

about the capacity of the department to deliver the modernisation

:05:28.:05:29.

programme. That is the point I wanted to make because I have been

:05:30.:05:36.

concerned that a lot of senior practitioners in the field say we

:05:37.:05:40.

don't have a problem with the modernisation programme, we

:05:41.:05:48.

recognise their rationale for stage rationalisation and a great move to

:05:49.:05:52.

digitalisation and video conferencing and so on but there is

:05:53.:05:55.

a concern as to whether the Ministry of Justice itself or Her Majesty 's

:05:56.:06:01.

Courts and tribunal service actually have the capacity, the technical

:06:02.:06:05.

capacity and professional capacity to deliver on those issues. That

:06:06.:06:13.

concerns me as much as in relation to the digitisation programme. There

:06:14.:06:17.

is in east London a very good family Law centre, part of the family Court

:06:18.:06:22.

we have at Canary Wharf. It is working well and opened in December

:06:23.:06:28.

of 2014. But it was delayed and one of the concerns has become apparent

:06:29.:06:34.

and that is part of that delay was that the estates manager is dealing

:06:35.:06:38.

with this in hats spend the better part of a year pursuing a particular

:06:39.:06:44.

site in the Canary Wharf area which was never realistically available at

:06:45.:06:51.

our acceptable rent or upon acceptable terms. The commercial

:06:52.:06:55.

property operators that they were dealing with were perfectly

:06:56.:06:59.

understandably running rings around them and very often Government

:07:00.:07:03.

departments and agencies do not have the level of direct commercial

:07:04.:07:07.

expertise in tough hard money negotiations that they are going to

:07:08.:07:13.

need to do to deliver this court's rationalisation disposal and renewal

:07:14.:07:16.

programme. I have the Minister will say what can be done about what has

:07:17.:07:21.

been done to strengthen it -- the expertise and many fear it that

:07:22.:07:26.

managerial expertise available to Government. This needn't be an house

:07:27.:07:31.

and there can be circumstances where it is proper to buy enough ice from

:07:32.:07:36.

their legal and property sector to make sure that Government gets the

:07:37.:07:39.

best possible deal and that these changes are made in a timely manner.

:07:40.:07:46.

A final point I was going to raise was there is opportunity recognised

:07:47.:07:52.

by the magistrates and judiciary when they had given evidence to us,

:07:53.:07:58.

to overcome some of the loss of local connection which are

:07:59.:08:04.

legitimate and genuine concerns by making use of satellite courts from

:08:05.:08:08.

the main court to hear cases which can be tried with perhaps less

:08:09.:08:13.

requirement for Security than those that remain at Magistrates' Court.

:08:14.:08:17.

They can be done in a temporary building for a civic centre or other

:08:18.:08:21.

public building closer to where the offence itself has been committed. I

:08:22.:08:25.

can think of circumstances where it would be difficult to make use of

:08:26.:08:31.

the town Hall, Civic Centre, some other building. Intelligent

:08:32.:08:36.

listening which can be done can make sure you don't have those cases

:08:37.:08:39.

which are likely to have custody requirements or where large numbers

:08:40.:08:45.

of witnesses are there. If you have something that is a summary only

:08:46.:08:49.

offence, the witnesses are likely to be local and you then have support

:08:50.:08:54.

to the bench itself and can get magistrates format locality setting

:08:55.:09:02.

as well. We have also suggested to the magistrates that perhaps we

:09:03.:09:05.

should look at some of the learning that they -- there is in the local

:09:06.:09:11.

Government world. Some magistrates are servicing rollable divisions and

:09:12.:09:18.

are not dissimilar to those of district councillors in rural areas.

:09:19.:09:23.

Some local authorities have done more online decision-making and

:09:24.:09:28.

trying to find means of having delegated local area committees and

:09:29.:09:34.

so on. There is experience in other areas that the judicial world can

:09:35.:09:38.

learn from and I would urge the Minister to encourage both his

:09:39.:09:42.

department but also those in the judiciary and magistrates themselves

:09:43.:09:46.

to take that on board. The same can be done for the legal profession

:09:47.:09:49.

also. We have had the same representations as other members

:09:50.:09:54.

have referred to. There is scope for sensible co-working between lawyers

:09:55.:09:59.

to achieve some of those issues. I am grateful for your indulgence and

:10:00.:10:08.

forgiveness. I hope those thoughts that seems to have struck a chord

:10:09.:10:11.

across the board amongst members of the select Committee something the

:10:12.:10:14.

Minister will be able to respond to when he applies to what is a very

:10:15.:10:22.

important debate. Can I begin by saying what a pleasure it is to

:10:23.:10:25.

follow on from such thoughtful speeches from everybody. I would

:10:26.:10:34.

like to congratulate the honourable members the Dulwich and West Norwood

:10:35.:10:40.

for securing this debate. Wakefield Magistrates' Court is one of the 86

:10:41.:10:44.

courts and tribunal hearing centres affected by this latest round of

:10:45.:10:51.

closures. That is nearly one fifth of the total Court estate and it is

:10:52.:10:57.

a cut of 20% in our access to local justice. Wakefield's court is a

:10:58.:11:00.

vital resource that provides access to justice for people in Wakefield

:11:01.:11:04.

and its closure will undermine that access. It is also part of the

:11:05.:11:10.

series of changes to the justice system since 2010 which have perhaps

:11:11.:11:16.

been stop, start and stop they have seen a series of changes in the last

:11:17.:11:23.

month. We have seen from the Justice Secretary bistro there scrapping

:11:24.:11:30.

of... The scrapping of court charges and up to ?1200 on defendants

:11:31.:11:35.

pleading guilty. I welcome the Justice Secretary's latest U-turn to

:11:36.:11:39.

reverse the imposition of the legal aid contracts which would have

:11:40.:11:44.

harmed access to legal aid in my constituency and across the country

:11:45.:11:48.

in January. Only after 99 legal challenges and a judicial review. I

:11:49.:11:54.

want to say a bit more about legal aid later in my remarks. In

:11:55.:11:59.

September this year, I launched a public petition opposing the closure

:12:00.:12:02.

of wakeful court and it has been signed by hundreds of people. The

:12:03.:12:05.

court closure is the latest threat to Wakefield city centre because it

:12:06.:12:09.

is coming alongside the announcement by the Post Office that they are

:12:10.:12:15.

proposing that Wakefield. You should be run as a franchise. That will

:12:16.:12:18.

affect the whole city centre of Wakefield because of that closes and

:12:19.:12:27.

goes into WH Smith or other shopping centres, the shoppers will not be

:12:28.:12:30.

drawn to the high street and it has a huge knock-on effect on the city

:12:31.:12:34.

centre economy as does the fact that we won't have police officers,

:12:35.:12:41.

council offices and lawyers going out in the city centre at lunchtime

:12:42.:12:45.

and buying a delicious damage from one of the many shops which we are

:12:46.:12:52.

proud to have in our city centre. There is cross-party concern about

:12:53.:12:56.

these closures. I think it is important that justice is not just

:12:57.:13:02.

done but seem to be done and is seen to be done locally. I think it will

:13:03.:13:08.

also result in more failed cases as victims and witnesses will have to

:13:09.:13:12.

travel long distance to get to court. It will waste police time

:13:13.:13:19.

because we will have to get to court. The point made about this is

:13:20.:13:26.

passing on cuts. The cuts are outsourced to the police service

:13:27.:13:31.

because it is that I mail that will be spent spending travelling to

:13:32.:13:35.

Wakefield and Leeds accompanying defendants or giving evidence. With

:13:36.:13:41.

the family courts, it will be council officer's time. This is not

:13:42.:13:45.

a cost neutral solution and the whole cost look at the core closure

:13:46.:13:53.

programme might be useful inquiry for the justice committee to look at

:13:54.:13:56.

in terms of what are the cost and cases of this. It is not acceptable

:13:57.:14:03.

that we have a cut in one place that is them absorbed by other parts of

:14:04.:14:04.

the system. Local justice will not be seen to be

:14:05.:14:18.

done as a local media will not cover cases which take place at some

:14:19.:14:28.

distance. A local solicitor told me that the consequences could be

:14:29.:14:32.

catastrophic for some of Wakefield law firms, solicitors will go where

:14:33.:14:37.

the work is, so firms which don't have offices in Leeds have talked

:14:38.:14:41.

about the possibility of moving out of Wakefield, another big cost to

:14:42.:14:45.

our city centre. They cannot afford to be in a city where there is not a

:14:46.:14:49.

court because they cannot afford to pay the expenses for lawyers to

:14:50.:14:53.

travel regularly to Leeds. The government has cut funding for the

:14:54.:14:56.

justice system by ?2.1 billion in the last parliament further ?900

:14:57.:15:04.

million of cuts to come by the end of this Parliament. Despite these

:15:05.:15:07.

cuts Wakefield Magistrates' Court has been performing to a high

:15:08.:15:12.

standard. The government said in its own consultation document that the

:15:13.:15:15.

building was well used and according to the Law Society Wakefield is a

:15:16.:15:20.

busy court operating at a higher capacity than the England and Wales

:15:21.:15:23.

average. For the year to date our conviction rate for cases is 87%

:15:24.:15:33.

against a national target of 85%. It has a very low overall attrition

:15:34.:15:37.

rate of just 10% against the national attrition rate target of

:15:38.:15:43.

15%. This is very important particularly when it comes to

:15:44.:15:49.

protecting one rubble. -- protecting the vulnerable. I met the new

:15:50.:15:52.

district commander of Wakefield police and he was rightly proud of

:15:53.:15:58.

the work they are doing in terms of having a very high conviction rate

:15:59.:16:02.

for domestic violence and that is something which has changed for the

:16:03.:16:06.

better since I was elected as the MP for Wakefield ten years ago. I can

:16:07.:16:10.

remember asking for a specialist domestic violence Court for

:16:11.:16:14.

Wakefield and being told almost with a pat on my hand by one of the court

:16:15.:16:19.

officials that I did not fully understand domestic violence and the

:16:20.:16:22.

trouble was that there was these allegations and then you would find

:16:23.:16:26.

them sitting holding hands outside the court. It was nice to be told

:16:27.:16:38.

what I did not understand by court officials. I left him in no doubt

:16:39.:16:40.

about my understanding and that perhaps he needed to understand a

:16:41.:16:43.

little bit more about domestic violence cases. We have worked hard

:16:44.:16:48.

on the safe at home prospect for victims of the mystic violence, we

:16:49.:16:52.

have a conviction rate of 81% against a national target of 75%.

:16:53.:16:58.

The commander is rightly concerned about what that will mean, we also

:16:59.:17:04.

have a very low average of days from first hearing to trial, 65 days

:17:05.:17:11.

compared to 103 days nationally. This is the second round of court

:17:12.:17:18.

closures in Wakefield since 2010. We had the closure of Pontefract magic

:17:19.:17:23.

its court in 2013 and that work has already transferred, and the staff,

:17:24.:17:27.

have transferred to Wakefield. This closure means all parties will all

:17:28.:17:35.

need to travel into Leeds, significantly increasing travel

:17:36.:17:39.

time. The Minister has said 95% of citizens would still be able to

:17:40.:17:42.

reach the court by car but we have already heard in this debate that

:17:43.:17:48.

the courts deal with the most vulnerable people in our society and

:17:49.:17:52.

the poorest people in our society and according to the Law Society

:17:53.:17:56.

just 47% of Wakefield Magistrate Courts users, 47% of Wakefield court

:17:57.:18:03.

users will have to travel for over an hour in each direction to reach

:18:04.:18:09.

court by public transport. This will reduce access to justice. I am

:18:10.:18:13.

concerned about the impact of those longer, more expensive journey times

:18:14.:18:18.

on victims, witnesses and defendants. And magistrates. Those

:18:19.:18:24.

living in the whole body and set will have difficulty getting to lead

:18:25.:18:29.

by public transport with very sporadic bus services, let alone

:18:30.:18:34.

people who live in the old pit villages where they then have two,

:18:35.:18:39.

they either get directly into Leeds are they have to come into Wakefield

:18:40.:18:44.

by bus, irregular sporadic services which don't often turn up and then

:18:45.:18:49.

change onto a train service and then travel by foot. Travelling by foot

:18:50.:18:56.

puts them at greater risk of bumping into the people they may be in court

:18:57.:19:01.

to appear against and I can tell you, as a victim, that is something

:19:02.:19:06.

which is not a comfortable place to be and something I have personally

:19:07.:19:11.

experienced. Those on low incomes are not eligible to claim back

:19:12.:19:18.

travel expenses and some who are required to attend court may have

:19:19.:19:22.

never been to Leeds before. These are not people who have access to

:19:23.:19:27.

Google maps on their smartphones. These people can get easily lost, we

:19:28.:19:31.

heard the case of the 80-year-old man turning up to appear against his

:19:32.:19:33.

neighbour. I witnessed anti-social behaviour when I was at school gates

:19:34.:19:42.

in Wakefield. I said to the lady that it happens to that I had seen

:19:43.:19:47.

and she reported it to the police and this case against this very

:19:48.:19:54.

aggressive individual came up during the general election campaign. It

:19:55.:19:59.

was scheduled to be heard at 10am so I gave up my morning 's canvassing

:20:00.:20:04.

in the interest of local justice and justice being done. I sat with the

:20:05.:20:10.

complainant and her husband and her neighbour who had turned up to

:20:11.:20:14.

support her, because often people need one or two other people to

:20:15.:20:19.

support them as well. We sat in the victims room the defendant turned up

:20:20.:20:24.

with his solicitor and was then advised to plead guilty. Until you

:20:25.:20:29.

are a victim you don't realise how important it is for the witnesses

:20:30.:20:33.

and victims to turn up because if the victims witnesses do not turn up

:20:34.:20:39.

it does not proceed and the getaway. This was brought home to meet 20

:20:40.:20:43.

years ago when I was a victim of assault but I basically stopped a

:20:44.:20:49.

large rampaging group of girls who had assaulted, were kicking a young

:20:50.:20:53.

woman on a zebra crossing in north London and then assaulted a cheap

:20:54.:20:56.

worker and then assaulted me. It was only when I turned up I realised how

:20:57.:21:00.

important it was that the people who had been victims of assault were in

:21:01.:21:04.

that room that day so that those girls pleaded guilty in that case to

:21:05.:21:09.

the charge of affray. Nobody knows this and how bad things happen to

:21:10.:21:12.

them but these are important things, so if people have to drop their

:21:13.:21:18.

children at school, wait for the bus, get off the bus, get the train

:21:19.:21:24.

into Leeds, arrived into Leeds, walk to the court, they have already not

:21:25.:21:30.

appeared in the case has already failed if it was listed for 10am.

:21:31.:21:35.

This is important for people in Wakefield and I think if this has to

:21:36.:21:40.

go ahead Wakefield cases should be listed as afternoon cases to enable

:21:41.:21:45.

people to attend but the childcare issue particularly around victims of

:21:46.:21:48.

domestic violence cannot be overstated. Young people, victims of

:21:49.:21:56.

domestic abuse, all those who rely on public transport will be affected

:21:57.:21:59.

by this so the government is erecting hurdles for witnesses to

:22:00.:22:03.

overcome and that is not what the role of the justice system should

:22:04.:22:08.

be. Legal professionals in Wakefield have told me how good our local

:22:09.:22:13.

court was at delivering local justice and again we have heard

:22:14.:22:16.

concerns from the Right Honourable member from Bromley about

:22:17.:22:22.

magistrates from the area and from Bridgend who have no local knowledge

:22:23.:22:26.

and understanding, people who don't know life and circumstances in

:22:27.:22:31.

Wakefield and the surrounding villages will lose local decisions

:22:32.:22:36.

on local justice matters. The government likes to talk a good talk

:22:37.:22:40.

on devolving power to communities but every action they take takes

:22:41.:22:46.

power away from local communities. We have already heard some creative

:22:47.:22:49.

examples of court hearings could be heard. I am insistent on the fact

:22:50.:22:54.

that the victim should feel comfortable and protected when they

:22:55.:22:59.

walk into the court but we do have a court chamber in Wakefield Council

:23:00.:23:03.

and we have County Court building as well in Wakefield. We had Bill Nighy

:23:04.:23:11.

filming there, that was an exciting day for the city and certainly for

:23:12.:23:16.

myself, that was a couple of months ago. These are court buildings which

:23:17.:23:20.

could be used for some very specific cases. The Lord Chief Justice

:23:21.:23:25.

reported two weeks ago that the system of justice has become an to

:23:26.:23:30.

most and the Law Society has described access to justice as being

:23:31.:23:34.

on the verge of a crisis. Funding for civil cases has fallen by 62%

:23:35.:23:39.

since civil legal aid was cut and these closures I think can worsen

:23:40.:23:43.

the trend around access to justice. I want to say a word about the legal

:23:44.:23:48.

aid changes, the honourable gentleman, the Right Honourable

:23:49.:23:51.

gentleman, Honourable gentleman, is well aware of the case of hobby and

:23:52.:23:56.

Christie Shepherd from my constituency who died of carbon

:23:57.:24:00.

monoxide poisoning while on holiday in Corfu, the appearance were denied

:24:01.:24:11.

legal aid at first -- the appearance were denied. I am eternally grateful

:24:12.:24:17.

to the Minister who was able to work with us to get that decision

:24:18.:24:21.

overturned after we petition the Prime Minister and secured a

:24:22.:24:29.

meeting. We have similar case of a man who died at his home in February

:24:30.:24:36.

2014 during the flood and his father was left paralysed from the waist

:24:37.:24:41.

down after a cardiac arrest. His parents believe he may have been

:24:42.:24:45.

killed by cyanide gas which had leached out from a former landfill

:24:46.:24:48.

site and come up with the floodwater. They have been told by

:24:49.:24:54.

the legal aid agency that their request for legal aid has been

:24:55.:24:57.

rejected on the ground that the inquest did not concern the public

:24:58.:25:02.

interest. I have discussed this with the honourable member and I do hope

:25:03.:25:08.

that the legal aid agency will review this trial is funding as a

:25:09.:25:15.

matter of utmost urgency and I hope the Minister will once again

:25:16.:25:17.

personally intervene so that justice can be done for that family and they

:25:18.:25:22.

are not left in the position of having to present their own case and

:25:23.:25:28.

examine witnesses, the father from his wheelchair, at that inquest. The

:25:29.:25:32.

Minister has suggested that those two far-away from court could appear

:25:33.:25:39.

via video link but we already have up-to-date technological facilities

:25:40.:25:43.

at Wakefield court, including our own present a court service which is

:25:44.:25:48.

important because we have two prisons, Wakefield prison which

:25:49.:25:52.

houses high risk offenders and Newhall women's prison as well. We

:25:53.:25:58.

had the Chief Executive of the courts and tribunals service at the

:25:59.:26:04.

Public Accounts Committee saying she has negotiated so any buildings

:26:05.:26:11.

which are sold can be reinvested in modernisation but they are yet to

:26:12.:26:17.

dispose of 15 closed courts from its 2010 closure of courts. One of those

:26:18.:26:27.

sites is Pontefract magistrate court which has fallen into rack and ruin

:26:28.:26:35.

in the town centre. I do not want to see Wakefield Magistrates' Court

:26:36.:26:39.

falling into rack and ruin. We have already had one derelict building in

:26:40.:26:47.

Wakefield which the council have passed to compulsory purchase and

:26:48.:26:50.

spend money on so it doesn't fall down. Again this is where the cost

:26:51.:26:55.

of a closure falls on local people although the savings are made

:26:56.:26:59.

nationally. It is local people who picked up the cost in terms of

:27:00.:27:02.

anti-social behaviour, in terms of derelict buildings and making sure

:27:03.:27:06.

they are secure and properly maintained. I think, we have heard

:27:07.:27:15.

from the Secretary of State for Justice, we have had changes on

:27:16.:27:19.

legal aid, prison reform which is welcome, and he has you turned on a

:27:20.:27:25.

range of issues. But we have also had mistakes which cost money. The

:27:26.:27:31.

legal aid contract is an example of how to throw an entire system up in

:27:32.:27:36.

the air, try to intervene in the market, cause huge upset and concern

:27:37.:27:40.

for people and their livelihoods only then to withdraw at the last

:27:41.:27:45.

minute. What have the costs being to local solicitors and law firms

:27:46.:27:49.

across the country in bidding for those contracts, winning them, not

:27:50.:27:54.

winning them, etc. I think the Minister would do well to listen

:27:55.:27:59.

before making another costly and damaging area. Wakefield is a city

:28:00.:28:03.

with great people, great transport connections from north to south but

:28:04.:28:09.

not least a West. I hesitate to interrupt, but I hope the honourable

:28:10.:28:16.

lady will soon be drawing her remarks to a close because there are

:28:17.:28:19.

a significant number of other people who are waiting to speak. Thank you,

:28:20.:28:27.

I will just conclude my remarks by saying that justice is supposed to

:28:28.:28:31.

conflict the guilty and protect the innocent and there is a grave risk

:28:32.:28:34.

with these proposals that they will do the reverse.

:28:35.:28:39.

As there are so many people waiting to speak, I have to impose a time

:28:40.:28:47.

limit of eight minutes. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:28:48.:28:51.

member for Wakefield and I congratulate the honourable member

:28:52.:28:55.

for Dulwich and West Norwood Ford securing this debate. I wish to

:28:56.:28:58.

speak up for the principle of local justice and the Bible importance of

:28:59.:29:05.

the courthouse in Stockford and our constituency and Hazel Grove. I

:29:06.:29:08.

welcome this decision made last month to keep Stockport courthouse

:29:09.:29:14.

open. Particularly in wake of my complaint with the ministry and

:29:15.:29:17.

having conversations with the Minister for courts and legal aid. A

:29:18.:29:23.

key principle of our justice system as many honourable members have said

:29:24.:29:27.

today is one that underpins most magistrates and Crown Court and

:29:28.:29:31.

justice should be delivered by peers and give rise to the requirement for

:29:32.:29:35.

local justice to be administered by local people within the local area.

:29:36.:29:38.

It is these principles which have given rise to jurisdictions in local

:29:39.:29:45.

courts which make up the current structure of the service. These

:29:46.:29:48.

principles under the current core system gives rise to the important

:29:49.:29:54.

practical benefits which helped deliver justice effectively. It

:29:55.:29:56.

provides shorter distance to travel from relevant parties in cases

:29:57.:30:05.

including defendants, witnesses. As well as the courts themselves. It

:30:06.:30:11.

gives rise to the smaller badgers having a local identity and social

:30:12.:30:16.

aspect. Finally the distribution of courts contributes to local

:30:17.:30:23.

communities but servers -- serves as catalysts to the local economies.

:30:24.:30:31.

They are the legal profession is that the honourable member mentioned

:30:32.:30:35.

as well. It is out of respect for these principles and the practical

:30:36.:30:40.

benefits I oppose the merger of the local justice area and Greater

:30:41.:30:44.

Manchester -- Manchester which was considered at a similar time to the

:30:45.:30:48.

courthouse. I made the separate case at the ministry that in the event of

:30:49.:30:52.

any changes to the local justice area of Greater Manchester that not

:30:53.:30:59.

all the business of any new merge is conducted. Turning to my local Court

:31:00.:31:09.

I made big casements go to the ministry to urge that Stockport

:31:10.:31:12.

should remain open and attain a significant proportion of its

:31:13.:31:16.

current magistrate and County Court functions. Stockport courthouse 47

:31:17.:31:22.

staff and was running at only 54% capacity in 2014 with the annual

:31:23.:31:29.

running costs of ?870,000. Please allow me to explain why I felt this

:31:30.:31:35.

way. Those impacted by the proposed closure would be the court uses

:31:36.:31:39.

including witnesses in the Magistrates' Court on those involved

:31:40.:31:43.

in smaller claims, bankruptcy and evictions in the County Court. All

:31:44.:31:47.

of these groups or vulnerable people who need the security and

:31:48.:31:51.

convenience of local services at what is already a stressful time for

:31:52.:31:55.

them. The potential closure of the Stockport courthouse could have

:31:56.:31:59.

restricted access to justice and may have ended up with a false economy

:32:00.:32:03.

shifting the operating costs to other areas. I'm glad you mentioned

:32:04.:32:11.

Stockport court is not be closed. I was welcomed by members of our

:32:12.:32:15.

committee because it also houses a very successful problem-solving

:32:16.:32:19.

court which has been recognised by the lord Chief Justice and Lord

:32:20.:32:22.

Chancellor has been an area where we could do more to combine

:32:23.:32:27.

jurisdictions and get a much more effective use of judicial capacity

:32:28.:32:31.

and better outcomes. He raises an important point of the innovative

:32:32.:32:37.

work being carried out in Stockport and I'm grateful to him bringing

:32:38.:32:40.

that to the attention of the House this afternoon. This would leave the

:32:41.:32:47.

town without a court and would mean my constituents would travel to

:32:48.:32:49.

Manchester in their quest for justice. This would not only see

:32:50.:32:53.

them incurring additional expense but negative impacts on vulnerable

:32:54.:32:59.

people and the disabled. It could increase the amount of defendants

:33:00.:33:03.

not turning up the hearings, wasting resources of court and meaning more

:33:04.:33:06.

restaurants would be -- arrest warrants would be issued. More on a

:33:07.:33:14.

economic perspective, if the closure went ahead on its proposed form all

:33:15.:33:18.

cases would be heard in Manchester and there would no longer be a

:33:19.:33:21.

Magistrates' Court between Chesterfield and Manchester. This

:33:22.:33:27.

Chesterfield Stockport case was mentioned earlier. In addition the

:33:28.:33:32.

closing of the Stockport court would utterly impact on the employees but

:33:33.:33:37.

the local businesses in the legal profession. I understand that in a

:33:38.:33:41.

context of wider pressures and public finances that some savings

:33:42.:33:45.

have to be made and I acknowledge the Minister has an on an enviable

:33:46.:33:49.

task with the difficult decisions he is facing. I have something for

:33:50.:33:52.

other local courts in surrounding areas. Many of whom could equally

:33:53.:33:59.

have applied these arguments and with local communities with strong

:34:00.:34:02.

allegiance to the courts. I am sorry to note that the courts in Derry,

:34:03.:34:07.

old and Trafford are earmarked for closure. There is a stronger case.

:34:08.:34:13.

Fred, it is one of the heavily utilised courts in the area. The

:34:14.:34:20.

stated AMs of Her Majesty's courts states it is to reduce surplus

:34:21.:34:24.

capacity by closing those courts that are unused or underused or are

:34:25.:34:27.

simply unsuitable for the services we need to provide in them. During

:34:28.:34:32.

the 2014/15 financial year, Stockport court was utilised by 54%

:34:33.:34:38.

of its capacity and that was the highest occupancy of ever of that in

:34:39.:34:46.

Greater Manchester. Stockport Council was -- Stockport coursed war

:34:47.:34:55.

-- Stockport court was refurbished in 2010. The Government announcement

:34:56.:34:58.

that Stockport court will not be closed is very good news indeed the

:34:59.:35:03.

people of Stockport and surrounding areas. I made the submission to the

:35:04.:35:07.

Department of Justice as part of the consultation process and also

:35:08.:35:10.

attended meetings with my honourable friend along with my neighbouring MP

:35:11.:35:15.

on the honourable member for Stockport who I will pay tribute

:35:16.:35:19.

for, for the amount of work she did as well as the member for Cheadle. I

:35:20.:35:25.

will take this in a cross-party approach and work cooperatively. I

:35:26.:35:28.

am pleased our arguments were listened to by Government was

:35:29.:35:36.

genuine consultation exercise, particularly given the Minister's

:35:37.:35:41.

intervention in that process. In summary, I feel is to port

:35:42.:35:45.

courthouse should remain open and I am pleased we have indicated that.

:35:46.:35:52.

It is important to preserve the long-standing principle is the local

:35:53.:35:57.

justice to give ministers to -- to provide services in the local area.

:35:58.:36:03.

It can continue to contribute to the local community and economy and as

:36:04.:36:07.

it currently provides a relatively high level of occupancy, compared to

:36:08.:36:12.

other courts in Greater Manchester and surrounding districts. The

:36:13.:36:17.

continued operation of the Stockport courthouse can be incorporated into

:36:18.:36:20.

whichever future model of local justice area structure from Greater

:36:21.:36:26.

Manchester that the Ministry of Justice would like to pursue. I ask

:36:27.:36:31.

the Minister to shed further light on that matter. I welcome the fact

:36:32.:36:35.

that as part of the reform package the Government is investing over

:36:36.:36:39.

?700 million of the next four years to update the Court and Tribunal

:36:40.:36:44.

state, installing modern IT systems and making the justice system more

:36:45.:36:46.

efficient and effective for modern users. I have sympathy for other

:36:47.:36:53.

local courts and surrounding areas across the country. I am glad many

:36:54.:36:57.

colleagues have been here today to stand up for the local courts.

:36:58.:37:05.

Perhaps in a week that has been characterised by open attitudes of

:37:06.:37:07.

the Government to show it's listening mode, I wonder if and I

:37:08.:37:13.

would hope that the Minister will be able to hear some of the important

:37:14.:37:17.

pleas of Right Honourable members here this afternoon. I agree with

:37:18.:37:23.

the last remark of the honourable member and I hope the Minister is in

:37:24.:37:29.

listening mode as we pursue it. I wanted to start by congratulating my

:37:30.:37:33.

honourable friend for the way that she has opened this debate and also

:37:34.:37:36.

to congratulate her on securing this. I hope it is an important

:37:37.:37:46.

debate this on February and this is debate this on February and this is

:37:47.:37:50.

the first opportunity we have had to do that. I want to join the tributes

:37:51.:37:55.

to the Minister who is not only civil and decent but he has been a

:37:56.:37:59.

tentative with me and delegations that I have brought down from North

:38:00.:38:05.

Wales. Solicitors and they see a BMW agencies because we are speaking

:38:06.:38:08.

with one voice on this. It is an important issue that goes across the

:38:09.:38:13.

whole local community. I am saying that not just because he's a black

:38:14.:38:17.

belt in martial arts because he genuinely the time to sit down with

:38:18.:38:23.

us and go through the detail. The policy is wrong. The one sized fits

:38:24.:38:28.

all court closure programme is both crude and wrong. It is against the

:38:29.:38:35.

principle of local justice which is the cornerstone of the British

:38:36.:38:43.

justice system. It is also against what the Government is talking about

:38:44.:38:48.

localism. It talks localism but is centralising not just with courts.

:38:49.:38:52.

We have seen in North Wales, we have seen the tax offices move from one

:38:53.:38:55.

place to another to be centralised in Cardiff. You can't talk

:38:56.:39:01.

devolution and deliver centralisation. It is completely

:39:02.:39:04.

wrong and we need to hold the Government to account on that. I

:39:05.:39:07.

want to concentrate on the decision to close both Holyhead and another

:39:08.:39:12.

court and move the business to Caernarfon which is a great distance

:39:13.:39:20.

away. Simply to say it costs. As I indicated to the chair of the

:39:21.:39:27.

justice select Committee, it is a comprehensive review in the last

:39:28.:39:31.

Parliament and I made representations, exactly the same

:39:32.:39:33.

representations I made this time which were upheld them because they

:39:34.:39:40.

were seen by the departments to be right at this times. Nothing has

:39:41.:39:44.

changed. We were in a recession at the time and the areas were deemed

:39:45.:39:50.

to be valuable to serving local justice. I make that point again

:39:51.:39:53.

because I think this is simply about saving costs. Those losing out the

:39:54.:39:59.

local people and the poorest in society in many ways again the

:40:00.:40:05.

Minister wrote to me and as he did to many members and has asked for

:40:06.:40:12.

senior officials from Her Majesty's court and Tribunal is to discuss

:40:13.:40:17.

technical arrangements with me for local alternative provisions. I can

:40:18.:40:20.

tell the Minister that the meeting will take place just after Easter. I

:40:21.:40:25.

will quote a constructive argument to them. I will put in the same

:40:26.:40:30.

argument, the same argument as I put this time because it has brought

:40:31.:40:35.

support and it is right for my area which is a periphery area of Wales.

:40:36.:40:41.

It has seen lots of closures over the principal Government's services

:40:42.:40:46.

and we needed it. It deserves to have these courts functional in

:40:47.:40:50.

those areas. I will argue that because Holyhead is the biggest town

:40:51.:40:54.

in my constituency. It is a periphery town, Major port town, one

:40:55.:41:00.

of the busiest ports in the UK and it is in the response that the

:41:01.:41:07.

Department made to the closure's proposal. It was confirmed that it

:41:08.:41:12.

was too difficult to travel great distances for those caught users who

:41:13.:41:15.

would otherwise have to make those long journeys to attend. On Anglesey

:41:16.:41:18.

they are looking at alternative part-time. I do think the time is

:41:19.:41:33.

good enough. Other civic buildings can be used and public buildings for

:41:34.:41:39.

these hearings. There will be a cost to adapt those. There has been some

:41:40.:41:47.

maintenance over the years that will be wasted. I am looking at certain

:41:48.:41:54.

things in the document about utilisation rates which the chairman

:41:55.:41:58.

of the Select Committee mentioned. There is talk about 20 and 31% which

:41:59.:42:09.

is a low figure but I am unaware of cases -- aware of cases being taken

:42:10.:42:17.

to Caernarfon. There is this stealth moving businesses away from certain

:42:18.:42:22.

courts with a view to closing them down in the future. It has happened

:42:23.:42:27.

to other services in my area in the last three to four years and I

:42:28.:42:30.

accept the husband closures over many years. Again, we had a recent

:42:31.:42:35.

review which was very fundamental and the select committee has looked

:42:36.:42:40.

at it and here we are again. What is next? It will only be a matter of

:42:41.:42:45.

time before they close. I want to come to the issue of the digital

:42:46.:42:51.

connections and the virtual courts which have been talked about. I want

:42:52.:42:56.

to repeat the fact that I am not a Luddite and Winnie to modernise. If

:42:57.:42:59.

things can be done in a proper manner, it should be. To suggest

:43:00.:43:04.

that we will have these virtual courts, that they will replace the

:43:05.:43:10.

court, when the infrastructure is not in place, it is simply silly to

:43:11.:43:15.

be frank and Winnie to get a coherent plan. I have been working

:43:16.:43:19.

with the Department of culture, media and sport to get improved

:43:20.:43:22.

mobile communications. I do believe there are many that don't want masts

:43:23.:43:27.

in their area but we can work with that. There are many Government

:43:28.:43:31.

buildings in those areas that could be cited the communications. We need

:43:32.:43:38.

to work together. They need to look before they make announcements and

:43:39.:43:41.

look to each other to have a coherent plan.

:43:42.:43:49.

I will be meeting with officials to bid for the case for retention of

:43:50.:43:59.

courts in my area. There are issues with border control and the

:44:00.:44:03.

detention cells have moved from Holyhead port took an ardent, a

:44:04.:44:11.

great distance of travel. Please travel is often private provision

:44:12.:44:16.

which is very costly as well. -- police travel. It makes sense, the

:44:17.:44:20.

courts were put there in the first place because they were

:44:21.:44:23.

strategically important and that remains the case today. I hope the

:44:24.:44:27.

Minister is listening, that he will have the go-ahead and flexibility to

:44:28.:44:34.

those officials I am meeting that if no provision, alternative provision

:44:35.:44:38.

is practical for technical or other reasons, that retention of those, as

:44:39.:44:42.

it says in the paper, will remain the case. That we will still have

:44:43.:44:46.

local justice on the periphery areas of north-west Wales because the

:44:47.:44:52.

people of my area deserve that. It is the cornerstone of British

:44:53.:44:55.

justice as I said and we need to retain it and the people of North

:44:56.:44:59.

Wales are speaking with one voice on this. It is a pleasure to follow the

:45:00.:45:07.

honourable member and congratulate the honourable member for Dulwich

:45:08.:45:10.

and West Norwood for securing this debate which was a pleasure to vote

:45:11.:45:19.

to make it happen. It will come as no surprise that I was disappointed

:45:20.:45:23.

with the decision to close Torquay Magistrates' Court for a number of

:45:24.:45:29.

reasons. It is something that has provided local justice for many

:45:30.:45:34.

years and there were concerns raised by the police and many others about

:45:35.:45:38.

the idea, it is not just the idea that was touched upon in the opening

:45:39.:45:42.

speech of people answering charges who now need to go elsewhere but

:45:43.:45:47.

witnesses, victims and all others associated with the cases heard

:45:48.:45:51.

before the local badger trips court. It is also very important that the

:45:52.:45:55.

Magistrates' Court has always been about local people sitting in

:45:56.:45:59.

judgment on local crimes and the matters that might irritate

:46:00.:46:03.

communities rather than let's see at the Crown Court where items can be

:46:04.:46:07.

more decided by the law overall given the offences that rightly we

:46:08.:46:11.

want to have more deterrent to sentences and where a judge would be

:46:12.:46:15.

more looking at the law and making sure precedents were correctly

:46:16.:46:18.

followed in terms of sensing people for the crimes they have committed.

:46:19.:46:23.

I think me what has been slightly concerning, certainly as a member of

:46:24.:46:27.

the Public Accounts Committee when last week we were examining some of

:46:28.:46:31.

the value for money in the criminal justice system was about what

:46:32.:46:34.

long-term plan there actually is for the courts estate. What brings out

:46:35.:46:41.

into focus in my own situation is the money spent over the last few

:46:42.:46:46.

years on Torquay Magistrates' Court. Not least the ?111,000 spent last

:46:47.:46:52.

year installing new windows. I accept the argument people did not

:46:53.:46:55.

wish to prejudge a closure decision but it's quite clear we should have

:46:56.:47:00.

a long-term plan and where a court might be one selected for a closure

:47:01.:47:04.

it is obvious there needs to be some restrictions on the amount of money

:47:05.:47:12.

spent. It's a welcome facility but to see the money spent in the years

:47:13.:47:16.

before something is due to close it is almost a criminal waste of cash.

:47:17.:47:21.

So whilst I welcome that it is a good court good facility I would say

:47:22.:47:24.

there does need to be a long-term asset plan for the courts estate to

:47:25.:47:29.

ensure the investment which will go into the wider network is targeted

:47:30.:47:34.

at those buildings in the best way possible and we don't find ourselves

:47:35.:47:38.

in a year or two debating buildings which had investment as part of this

:47:39.:47:42.

programme being proposed for closure as part of another programme. I

:47:43.:47:47.

think there is a wider discussion around bricks and mortar and

:47:48.:47:51.

buildings, but about what types of cases are heard and where in

:47:52.:47:57.

particular without the Magistrates' Court, what type is of cases can be

:47:58.:48:05.

dealt with in alternative locations. There are many offences we know that

:48:06.:48:07.

are tried at Magistrates' Court were the prospect of card study -- of

:48:08.:48:15.

custody is next to nil so I would wish to see a more long-term plan

:48:16.:48:21.

about working with local authorities who have buildings which are

:48:22.:48:24.

suitable and could be used for hearings were there is no prospect

:48:25.:48:28.

of custody, for example those not paying their TV licence. That would

:48:29.:48:32.

be far more sensible for them not to be making a long journey. Also where

:48:33.:48:38.

there might be an argument about cases which have been irritating to

:48:39.:48:42.

a local community and would be beneficial to be heard in them

:48:43.:48:45.

rather than being shipped away from them. I think there is an ally

:48:46.:48:50.

discussion to be had around the court about what items we do centre

:48:51.:48:56.

court. I remember during my time in charge of finance at a local

:48:57.:48:59.

authority was council tax being one of the few debts which is still

:49:00.:49:03.

enforced through a threat of imprisonment. I accept it is almost

:49:04.:49:09.

an heard of for someone to be sent to prison purely for not paying

:49:10.:49:13.

council tax but as it stands today you still have the whole process of

:49:14.:49:20.

collection of that tax going through a magistrate court with as any other

:49:21.:49:23.

debt somebody might all a local authority apart from business rates

:49:24.:49:27.

will be collected through the County Court system. Add remember us having

:49:28.:49:34.

two teams 1% of person for one debt to the old, and another person

:49:35.:49:37.

pursuing business rates to the Magistrates' Court. It is difficult

:49:38.:49:48.

when people to understand when people defraud the system, it will

:49:49.:49:53.

perhaps encourage the government to perhaps look at reforming the court

:49:54.:49:57.

process and look at what types of cases are ending up, particularly

:49:58.:50:02.

the enforcement of council tax which could be better done in a County

:50:03.:50:06.

Court setting, certainly in Turkey. It would mean people go to Torquay

:50:07.:50:11.

County Court that potentially setting off to a Magistrates' Court

:50:12.:50:14.

to have an argument about a debt they have been unable to pay.

:50:15.:50:28.

I think for me there is a real need to looked at how we have a plan for

:50:29.:50:37.

the long-term future of our court, how we have studied it to ensure

:50:38.:50:41.

that some cases can still be decided locally and a real commitment to

:50:42.:50:45.

doing that, not just an allusion to it but our plan in the areas where

:50:46.:50:53.

courts will not be in place. I also say it is it important about how we

:50:54.:50:59.

have that for the magistrate as well, the news that Torquay

:51:00.:51:02.

Magistrates' Court will disappear has prompted an number of people who

:51:03.:51:05.

have sat on the bench for a long period of time to consider if they

:51:06.:51:10.

would travel to Plymouth to hear a large number of cases. I would also

:51:11.:51:16.

be concerned that the magistrates were being drawn from areas close

:51:17.:51:19.

around where courts survived rather than having, as people spread across

:51:20.:51:25.

the areas, able to reflect the impact of the community is

:51:26.:51:29.

concerned. On a slightly related point about how we call people are

:51:30.:51:33.

per jury service as well. Crown Court cases are not held in Torbay,

:51:34.:51:39.

but reducing the number of potential Crown Court locations we could also

:51:40.:51:43.

be similarly restricting the areas we can sensibly draw jewellers from

:51:44.:51:54.

-- juror 's from. People should have an equal chance of being called up

:51:55.:51:58.

for jury service rather than finding that because they happen to live

:51:59.:52:02.

close to the sole Crown Court that the chances are higher of being

:52:03.:52:07.

called up for jury service. Those living some distance away, because

:52:08.:52:11.

of the practicalities, are not likely to be called at all. Again,

:52:12.:52:16.

that is one of the things I think would be interesting to look at.

:52:17.:52:22.

Fast Mr Deputy Speaker it is disappointing to be standing here

:52:23.:52:25.

reflecting on the closure of Torquay Magistrates' Court, I do hope some

:52:26.:52:32.

of the points will be taken up around more long-term planning to

:52:33.:52:36.

ensure we don't have things like big of money being spent on courts

:52:37.:52:40.

months before the proposed closure and a long-term think over what is

:52:41.:52:46.

going through courts, not just where are those cases are heard. I

:52:47.:52:52.

congratulate the honourable member for Dulwich and West Norwood for

:52:53.:52:59.

securing this debate and I would like to echo the comments made by

:53:00.:53:04.

many of my colleagues. This is a particularly significant issue for

:53:05.:53:10.

Wales and my constituents in what is a largely rural constituency and I

:53:11.:53:15.

am the court cheer for the justice union and family courts

:53:16.:53:20.

parliamentary group. Wales is witnessing a decline in access to

:53:21.:53:25.

justice, 15 courts were closed between 2010 and 2015 and since the

:53:26.:53:30.

2015 collection of further 14 have closed or are we are discussing them

:53:31.:53:37.

today. The closure in my constituency means cases will need

:53:38.:53:41.

to be transferred to Aberystwyth. The issue of inadequate public

:53:42.:53:44.

transport is well-documented but members will understand that the

:53:45.:53:52.

journey is not simply a matter of waiting for the next boss to turn

:53:53.:53:56.

up. Who would not be concerned about the prospect of defendants and

:53:57.:54:00.

witnesses travelling to court together on the same bus possibly

:54:01.:54:05.

for a matter of hours. For many people across Wales it would become

:54:06.:54:11.

impossible to reach any Magistrates' Court for a 9:30am start. Closures

:54:12.:54:17.

will also have severe impact on staff who faced either redundancy

:54:18.:54:20.

are significantly longer journeys to work. Consideration must be given to

:54:21.:54:25.

staff in the circumstances who have caring responsibilities or those who

:54:26.:54:31.

are disabled for who continued on planet could become untenable. The

:54:32.:54:34.

government defends itself by claiming courts are underused but I

:54:35.:54:37.

have been told court cases are being moved in order to skew the figure is

:54:38.:54:47.

unjustified closing some courts. It will effectively result in the cost

:54:48.:54:50.

of providing justice being passed from the state onto the individual

:54:51.:54:53.

engaging with the justice system whether as an offender or a witness

:54:54.:54:58.

or a victim. Such a transfer of burden is a long-running strategy

:54:59.:55:01.

for the UK Government. Most notably and most controversially are at the

:55:02.:55:10.

restrictions only delayed. -- on legal aid.

:55:11.:55:21.

Legal aid was meant to put an end to legal rights being luxuries beyond

:55:22.:55:28.

the reach of ordinary citizens. The UK Government 's restrictions

:55:29.:55:32.

rollback on these important steps towards social justice. The

:55:33.:55:35.

restrictions pass on the cost of Justice to the state to the

:55:36.:55:38.

individual and unfortunately this means many people cannot afford to

:55:39.:55:45.

access justice whether the court is within a geographical reach or not.

:55:46.:55:49.

The closures of courts in rule Wales will also have a profound impact on

:55:50.:55:54.

a persons ability to conduct their business through the medium of

:55:55.:55:58.

Welsh. The consequence of court closures and villages to

:55:59.:56:01.

availability of legal aid including the reduction in awarding legal aid

:56:02.:56:05.

contracts to local solicitors will continue the trend of seeing small

:56:06.:56:09.

independent legal firms becoming unviable and subsequently being

:56:10.:56:14.

forced to relocate close down. In strong Welsh beating parts of Wales

:56:15.:56:18.

it will make it impossible for residents to access legal services,

:56:19.:56:23.

obtain advice or legal counsel or conduct their business to the

:56:24.:56:26.

language of their choice which I would remind the house is the right.

:56:27.:56:30.

The Welsh language should be a consideration when deciding whether

:56:31.:56:34.

or not to close courts and I am pleased the government belatedly

:56:35.:56:37.

agreed to carry out its duty in carrying out an impact assessment

:56:38.:56:42.

but Welsh speakers should not be forced to mount campaigns to make

:56:43.:56:46.

sure of these assessments which the government are legally required to

:56:47.:56:49.

carry out are completed. I read it took so long for the government to

:56:50.:56:53.

do it in this case even if I am glad it has been done. Returning to the

:56:54.:56:58.

issue of court access in rule areas I have a background in teaching

:56:59.:57:01.

through video conferencing, I was the director in charge of teaching

:57:02.:57:06.

through video and we spoke to a number of secondary schools

:57:07.:57:09.

throughout Wales. I therefore have an interest in efforts to increased

:57:10.:57:13.

access to justice through the use of technology. Given the court closures

:57:14.:57:19.

and the problems they will cause in rule parts of Wales allowing

:57:20.:57:26.

healings to take place the Motley may -- take place Motley may be

:57:27.:57:30.

welcome. But I do note the eight conditions set out by the review of

:57:31.:57:35.

efficiency in criminal proceedings in January last year. These

:57:36.:57:38.

conditions were considered prerequisites. The first is obvious

:57:39.:57:43.

but crucial, the equipment used and the audio and visual quality should

:57:44.:57:48.

be of high standard. Given that connectivity infrastructure in my

:57:49.:57:54.

constituency along with vast swathes of rural Wales is even poor than the

:57:55.:57:58.

transport infrastructure I wonder if the Minister would outline what

:57:59.:58:02.

consideration will be given to the quality and liability of that

:58:03.:58:04.

infrastructure in those areas where courts will be closed? I also hope

:58:05.:58:14.

that the recommendation that best practice is identified for hearings

:58:15.:58:23.

conducted via video link. This is to ensure that justice outcomes through

:58:24.:58:26.

communications technology are consistent with justice outcomes in

:58:27.:58:31.

a conventional face-to-face environment. I think this is very

:58:32.:58:35.

important and would be very concerned if there was an

:58:36.:58:38.

inconsistency in results due to the means of fumigation.

:58:39.:59:15.

In the case of the Council, there would be little adaptation and offer

:59:16.:59:26.

facilities such as parking and translation equipment. It is also

:59:27.:59:31.

located nearer to the police station whose sales are used for cult

:59:32.:59:35.

purposes than the present grade two listed court building. I would

:59:36.:59:38.

strongly urge the Minister to consider this alternative as a

:59:39.:59:42.

physical court location rather than leave my constituency which covers

:59:43.:59:48.

843 square miles and includes eight sizeable towns rather than leave

:59:49.:59:52.

that constituency with node court facilities whatsoever. In closing, I

:59:53.:59:57.

will remind the Minister that since 2010 the UK Government has already

:59:58.:00:01.

closed 15 courts across Wales and a further 14 courts are now to close

:00:02.:00:08.

their doors. I urge the Minister to listen to what is being said today

:00:09.:00:12.

and to reconsider the proposal to close these further courts

:00:13.:00:15.

particularly if we can find alternative sites in those areas

:00:16.:00:23.

where public transport goes against victims and witnesses being able to

:00:24.:00:27.

arrive in the alternative without any means whatsoever. I would urge

:00:28.:00:34.

alternative arrangements are made. There was a quote that said the

:00:35.:00:39.

statesman who contributes to put justice out of reach is an accessory

:00:40.:00:49.

after the fact. May I thank the backbench business committee for

:00:50.:00:53.

agreeing to have this debate which is very important. We had a similar

:00:54.:00:57.

debate in September in the ACA to buy the honourable gentleman for

:00:58.:01:02.

Bath and myself. Hartlepool County Court is scheduled for close which

:01:03.:01:07.

is why I wanted to raise the issue and that debate a while ago fell on

:01:08.:01:15.

deaf ears as Hartlepool remains closed -- scheduled for closure. I

:01:16.:01:20.

mentioned in September that I had serious reservations about the

:01:21.:01:23.

proposals. These reservations still remain. These concerns are shared by

:01:24.:01:29.

the Law Society who recommend that Hartlepool magistrates and County

:01:30.:01:33.

Courts remain open. My first concern is there is nothing lacking with

:01:34.:01:36.

regards to the facilities in Hartlepool. Other parts of the

:01:37.:01:40.

country, the Magistrates' Court are in March closure because they fail

:01:41.:01:45.

to comply with the Equality Act 2010 or they are lacking in security

:01:46.:01:50.

issues. Hartlepool has none of this. There are separate waiting

:01:51.:01:54.

facilities for defence witnesses and interview rooms. If the proposed

:01:55.:01:59.

closure does go ahead, the consultation can see that

:02:00.:02:03.

reconfiguration of the hearing space at Teesside Magistrates' Court would

:02:04.:02:08.

be required. I don't know how much of that would cost. That brings me

:02:09.:02:11.

onto an additional point that of the course that will be saved by the

:02:12.:02:16.

proposal to close Hartlepool. I understand this consultation has

:02:17.:02:19.

been driven by a desire to reduce costs and the Minister has said on a

:02:20.:02:24.

number of occasions that the courts cost half year and he wants to write

:02:25.:02:31.

that down. I question whether the closure of Hartlepool Magistrates'

:02:32.:02:34.

Court will save any costs at all. There is a lack of transparency

:02:35.:02:38.

available in respect of this matter. The costs in terms of Hartlepool

:02:39.:02:42.

Magistrates' Court and County Court have costs of around ?345,000 a

:02:43.:02:47.

year. The Minister has never been able to explain how the savings will

:02:48.:02:51.

be made. I would imagine a large proportion of these costs will be

:02:52.:02:55.

about staff expenditure. There are eight members of staff that work at

:02:56.:02:58.

the Ministry 's court and seven full-time members working at

:02:59.:03:03.

Hartlepool County Court. If there is going to be redundancy which is the

:03:04.:03:08.

only way forward, it is difficult -- still difficult to find out why.

:03:09.:03:12.

These are job losses that they can ill afford. Unemployment in

:03:13.:03:19.

Hartlepool increased in February with 2747 claimants. At a time when

:03:20.:03:24.

unemployment in the UK fell in the past year by 11%, the jobless rate

:03:25.:03:28.

in my constituency actually rose in the last 12 months by 11.8%.

:03:29.:03:35.

Hartlepool is the 11th worth -- worst affected constituency for high

:03:36.:03:39.

unemployment. It is over two and a half times the national rate. We

:03:40.:03:44.

cannot afford any more job losses, especially those initiated by the

:03:45.:03:49.

Government. One of the other reservations in terms of the

:03:50.:03:58.

building is how they operate. The Government will be able to realise

:03:59.:04:01.

any value by selling off the building. They have set the

:04:02.:04:06.

Government must capitalise the receipts for reinvestment since

:04:07.:04:10.

courts and tribunal services. That will not be met by closing

:04:11.:04:16.

Hartlepool down. It is a leasehold. The building is owned by Hartlepool

:04:17.:04:21.

Borough Council. I asked the minister before. I will ask him

:04:22.:04:27.

again. How much is it going to cost to break the lease? Is the

:04:28.:04:31.

considering whole of Government efficiencies rather than that silo

:04:32.:04:35.

-based approach on what he had to achieve for his individual ministry?

:04:36.:04:37.

Is he transferring financial pressures away from his own

:04:38.:04:43.

department on to hard-pressed local Government? I mentioned the criteria

:04:44.:04:47.

by which the court will be closed to seem very opaque. I asked a

:04:48.:04:50.

Parliamentary question of the time about what the cost is in England

:04:51.:04:56.

and Wales including Hartlepool and Teesside. That seemed to be a

:04:57.:05:01.

reasonable metric to look at efficiencies across different

:05:02.:05:07.

operating units. The answer I received back was the information is

:05:08.:05:12.

not available centrally and can only be providing a disproportionate

:05:13.:05:17.

cost. If that metric isn't being used, what is? How can relative

:05:18.:05:22.

performance and effectiveness across the estate be evaluated in a

:05:23.:05:27.

consistent manner? I do contends strongly that I don't think the

:05:28.:05:30.

courage of Hartlepool Magistrates' Court will save any money at all. My

:05:31.:05:39.

main concern is that my constituents will be inconvenienced in their

:05:40.:05:43.

access to local justice. The consultation when it came to talking

:05:44.:05:47.

about Hartlepool said and I quote, there are excellent road rail and

:05:48.:05:53.

bus links. The person that wrote that has never been to my part of

:05:54.:05:58.

the world. It is ludicrous to suggest that. Public transport

:05:59.:06:02.

countryside is appalling. Somebody from Hartlepool require to be

:06:03.:06:07.

Teesside Magistrates' Court for an early-morning hearing and without

:06:08.:06:10.

access to a car would struggle to make it. The proportion of

:06:11.:06:14.

Hartlepool residents who have access to a car is 41%. That is more than

:06:15.:06:24.

half of what the UK averages at 81%. Victims will need calm before having

:06:25.:06:28.

the stress of giving evidence and they will be inconvenienced. I asked

:06:29.:06:33.

the minister in September, is this what the Government wants to make

:06:34.:06:38.

justice and access to justice more stressful and inconvenient for

:06:39.:06:41.

innocent victims? Justice is not served by making victims travel

:06:42.:06:45.

longer distances. The consultation concedes that as the present time,

:06:46.:06:50.

99% of those accessing Hartlepool Magistrates' Court can be there by

:06:51.:06:55.

public transport within 60 minutes. After the closure scheduled to take

:06:56.:07:00.

place in January 20 91% will take between one and two hours. This

:07:01.:07:05.

fails the Government's intention of ensuring people will not have to

:07:06.:07:08.

face longer journeys. It is one of the key reasons why the Law Society

:07:09.:07:14.

is opposed to the closures of the courts in Hartlepool. Finally I want

:07:15.:07:17.

to raise one other point in terms of the holistic view of law, order and

:07:18.:07:23.

security with regards to Government policy. Police, staff and offices

:07:24.:07:31.

fell from 628 in March 2010 to 1000 -- fell to... A drop of 30%. Total

:07:32.:07:42.

crime has gone up by 22%. In Hartlepool, the areas of offences

:07:43.:07:49.

have risen sharply. Year-on-year violence without injury has gone up

:07:50.:07:56.

46.7% and nondomestic threat -- theft has gone up and shoplifting by

:07:57.:08:01.

19.5%. Personal robbery in Hartlepool has gone up in the last

:08:02.:08:08.

year by 63.6%. This is going to put enormous strain on the whole

:08:09.:08:12.

judicial system. I would as the minister again to reconsider the

:08:13.:08:15.

proposed closure for Hartlepool Magistrates' Court in keeping with

:08:16.:08:19.

the holistic view of how we have good, local law and order. Police

:08:20.:08:25.

think about the considerations made by me, my constituents and by the

:08:26.:08:29.

Law Society and ensure Hartlepool Magistrates' Court and County Court

:08:30.:08:36.

can remain open. Can I start by thanking my honourable friend for

:08:37.:08:42.

her hard work in securing this important debate today. Halifax is

:08:43.:08:46.

unusual in that we are having to courts closed in my constituency is

:08:47.:08:54.

part of these changes. They are currently in two different buildings

:08:55.:08:57.

and will be closed on the majority of the workload transfer to

:08:58.:09:03.

Bradford. And one who has seen the recent BBC series Happy Valley will

:09:04.:09:15.

see there are many criminals taking up our time. I am pleased and

:09:16.:09:20.

relieved to inform honourable members that of thoroughly gripping

:09:21.:09:29.

television, is not an accurate portrayal of Calderdale. We were

:09:30.:09:32.

prepared to work with the Government to see one of our courts closed. We

:09:33.:09:37.

recognise that efficiency savings could be made and in a move

:09:38.:09:40.

predominantly led by the local magistrates bench and I would like

:09:41.:09:44.

to thank them for their detailed work and analysis on the proposals,

:09:45.:09:48.

we campaign for merging of the courts and in a way that will

:09:49.:09:51.

deliver a cost saving to the Government but access to local

:09:52.:09:56.

justice would have been maintained. However the announcement last month

:09:57.:09:58.

delivered in a written statement as identified by an above my colleagues

:09:59.:10:02.

on the last day of the recess, both courts were closed and the

:10:03.:10:07.

Government's ambition of the savings would not accommodate this proposal.

:10:08.:10:11.

Fighting injustice is largely what motivates me to do this job and I

:10:12.:10:14.

would argue that British values are standing in the world and are

:10:15.:10:18.

entwined with our fair and accessible justice system which has

:10:19.:10:21.

paved the way for so many others around the world. We never know when

:10:22.:10:24.

we might be a victim of crime or witness a crime and live in the hope

:10:25.:10:28.

that we never have a family broke down so serious that we require

:10:29.:10:33.

guidance from the family courts. The two cords eye patch play an

:10:34.:10:36.

essential role not only in writing ones but resolvable manners of

:10:37.:10:40.

sensitive disputes. The arguments about access to justice and the

:10:41.:10:43.

merits of this have been well rehearsed over the course of this

:10:44.:10:46.

consultation and throughout this debate and will focus on my

:10:47.:10:50.

challenges to the Government which I had the Minister will recognise in

:10:51.:10:55.

his winding up. The closure of 86 courts and tribunals have been

:10:56.:10:58.

packaged not as closures but as a means of facilitating a justice

:10:59.:11:03.

revolution driven by technology that will make justice more accessible

:11:04.:11:07.

than ever before. The Government has committed to spend 700 million over

:11:08.:11:11.

five years to modernise and digitise the court. However a written

:11:12.:11:15.

question to the Minster tailored on the 7th of December and answered on

:11:16.:11:20.

the 29th of February revealed that 1.35 million was spent on delivering

:11:21.:11:25.

the digitalisation programme in court which has subsequently been

:11:26.:11:29.

announced the closure. Whilst the responsibility of the Minister

:11:30.:11:31.

outlined that the vast majority of this expenditure was in renewable

:11:32.:11:36.

hardware assets that could be relocated, representatives from the

:11:37.:11:40.

courts and Halifax tell me that thousands has been wasted and costs

:11:41.:11:43.

associated with the installation and custom in buildings due to be

:11:44.:11:48.

closed. I will be grateful to know if the 700 million figure quoted is

:11:49.:11:52.

a new fund that will mitigate the access gap created by the court

:11:53.:11:55.

closures orders this figure include monies already spent as part of the

:11:56.:11:59.

digitalisation programme in court that we now know will be closed? But

:12:00.:12:03.

that this will mind that the Minister and to echo the sentiments

:12:04.:12:07.

expressed, I'm grateful for the opportunity to meet with him in

:12:08.:12:11.

person to present the case on merging the courts. He's a bully met

:12:12.:12:16.

with representatives from the magistrate's bench Calderdale. It

:12:17.:12:19.

was clear to me what services the Government will provide in the

:12:20.:12:25.

roll-out of this revolution and what the response and says are to local

:12:26.:12:30.

authorities and law form is bridging the access gap. Local authorities

:12:31.:12:34.

are cash-strapped and especially in Calderdale were the Boxing Day

:12:35.:12:37.

floods combined with other pressures have placed an unprecedented burden

:12:38.:12:42.

on the budget and so it will be concerned if they are expecting the

:12:43.:12:45.

local governments to part finance these changes that might be

:12:46.:12:48.

required. I will be even more concerned if the Government was

:12:49.:12:51.

expecting the private sector to step in and into dos technology required

:12:52.:12:55.

to look at the closure of the courts in a way that will introduce a

:12:56.:12:58.

postcode lottery to access injustice. We have heard from other

:12:59.:13:04.

colleagues around mobile coverage and broadband cover which will

:13:05.:13:07.

contribute to this postcode lottery. I'm grateful of the Minister could

:13:08.:13:11.

clarify what role he anticipates local authorities private sector to

:13:12.:13:15.

play in the digitalisation process. I also want to outline the impact

:13:16.:13:18.

that the closures will have on the local economy as identified by other

:13:19.:13:24.

members. The two cords and Halifax are located at the top end of the

:13:25.:13:28.

town centre and surrounded by law firms in what could be described as

:13:29.:13:34.

legal quota of Halifax. Like in Wakefield we have a Post Office of

:13:35.:13:37.

the closure in that same part of town and stop back in October I sent

:13:38.:13:41.

a letter to the Secretary of State signed by 13 representatives of law

:13:42.:13:45.

firms who are situated with their close proximity to the court. Those

:13:46.:13:51.

law firms employ highly educated professionals and pay good wages in

:13:52.:13:55.

my constituency and are considering their futures in Halifax. Several

:13:56.:14:00.

are considering following the workload. One the would-be clients

:14:01.:14:03.

and Halifax will not be enough to keep all of those jobs here? There's

:14:04.:14:10.

not as much work for lawyers in Halifax as Happy Valley will

:14:11.:14:15.

suggest. There is the potential for surrounding offices to be empty and

:14:16.:14:18.

it will not be healthy for that area of the town centre and place a

:14:19.:14:21.

burden on the local authority in terms of regeneration.

:14:22.:14:27.

Ultimately I am worried about those who regularly attend court, far from

:14:28.:14:33.

exclusively being repeat offenders, staff from social housing provisos,

:14:34.:14:40.

represent those from local authorities, police officers and

:14:41.:14:43.

youth offending services are just some of the predominantly public

:14:44.:14:46.

services and charity organisations who stand to be inconvenienced by

:14:47.:14:51.

these closures. Let's be clear when I see inconvenienced I mean

:14:52.:14:57.

extended, more costly journeys, extended periods out of office,

:14:58.:15:02.

inconvenience is a cost and when we are dealing with public services it

:15:03.:15:06.

is a cost of ultimately picked up by the taxpayer. In conclusion, I am

:15:07.:15:11.

looking for assurances from the Minister that the Justice revolution

:15:12.:15:14.

is real and deliverable in the appropriate time frame, that the

:15:15.:15:17.

funding is they are and her clarity of what wastage there has already

:15:18.:15:21.

been in delivering the digitalisation programme. I want to

:15:22.:15:26.

know considerations will be made to assist local authorities, manage the

:15:27.:15:33.

closure of chords and any impact this would have on town centres and

:15:34.:15:35.

the businesses which rely on their proximity to the courts. I know that

:15:36.:15:38.

the Department for justice is genuinely deliver a cost saving to

:15:39.:15:40.

the taxpayer with these closures and not just a saving to the department.

:15:41.:15:44.

That they haven't just passed on some of the cost to local

:15:45.:15:47.

authorities, some to the Home Office, some to the social housing

:15:48.:15:52.

providers, some to charities and that their ambition for savings has

:15:53.:15:57.

not compromised what is sensible and practical in our world-renowned

:15:58.:16:06.

justice system. Can I thank the honourable member for securing this

:16:07.:16:11.

debate and opening it so skilfully and eloquently. We share concern

:16:12.:16:15.

about specific court, Lambeth County Court which covers many of our

:16:16.:16:20.

constituents. The member for Bromley and Chislehurst was talking about

:16:21.:16:23.

how busy the court was in Bromley and George are busy he was by

:16:24.:16:26.

receiving a call in here but the same is true of Lambeth court. When

:16:27.:16:31.

I appeared at the court as a witness to speak for leaseholders against

:16:32.:16:37.

Southwark Council, that morning alone there was something like 22

:16:38.:16:42.

individual cases involving residences and the council alone.

:16:43.:16:46.

It's an incredibly busy court which is why local legal professionals

:16:47.:16:50.

approached me and other members concerning the governance assessment

:16:51.:16:55.

of how the court was being used. The concerns covered the time the

:16:56.:16:59.

assessment took place and the consideration of preparation for

:17:00.:17:04.

cases. When this was discussed in the Westminster hall debate these

:17:05.:17:07.

issues were not answered fully and it would be useful if the Minister

:17:08.:17:11.

can confirm whether alternative facilities have the capacity to

:17:12.:17:14.

provide the preparation time and space needed for cases and it's

:17:15.:17:20.

deeply unfortunate I think that in a debate about justice and the

:17:21.:17:25.

government has not provided the evidence, sufficient evidence base

:17:26.:17:29.

to justify its course of action. One issue I don't think has yet been

:17:30.:17:35.

aired today is around law students, London South bank University

:17:36.:17:37.

approached me to ask if the government is even considering the

:17:38.:17:42.

impact on law students and there needs to incur additional costs and

:17:43.:17:46.

travel further to attend cases. I am sorry, I thought someone was asking

:17:47.:17:51.

me to give way. It'd be interesting if the Minister could provide an

:17:52.:17:54.

indication if that assessment will be undertaken. The issue of travel

:17:55.:17:59.

has been raised many times and the government figure about of people

:18:00.:18:05.

being able to get to a different court within an hour has been

:18:06.:18:12.

significantly challenged. That figure is not from home and it would

:18:13.:18:16.

be much more useful if the government could provide assessment

:18:17.:18:19.

for average journey times from home to court and I hope the Minister

:18:20.:18:24.

will commit to that today. That 97% figure is also undermined in

:18:25.:18:29.

communities like my own where only 50% of households own a car and

:18:30.:18:34.

there is a specific policy of controlled parking zones which

:18:35.:18:38.

affects many residents in my constituency who are either unable

:18:39.:18:43.

or have very limited access to car ownership. In looking at this issue

:18:44.:18:47.

on the half of individual consistence, Ireland that journey

:18:48.:18:53.

times, it would take four hours for some constituents to get to really

:18:54.:19:01.

need to be, including six different bus journeys. I hope we have new in

:19:02.:19:08.

May who will freeze travel fears and introduce different tickets but

:19:09.:19:12.

there are still higher costs for my constituents. This will affect court

:19:13.:19:19.

attendance and could affect the number of council cases and could

:19:20.:19:23.

affect the number of appeals and we have not seen a full assessment of

:19:24.:19:27.

those issues. Nor have we seen as has been mentioned today a full

:19:28.:19:31.

assessment of the potential knock-on cost to the police who are

:19:32.:19:37.

transporting witnesses further. I believe it was the Law Society who

:19:38.:19:40.

raised the case about juror is claiming higher cost for road car

:19:41.:19:49.

use and public transport. There are additional costs to councils we have

:19:50.:19:54.

heard about today, both for housing officers, social services officers

:19:55.:19:59.

and also, instead of having the assessments undertaken by the

:20:00.:20:02.

Department we have had huge assumptions being made about council

:20:03.:20:07.

's willingness and PlayStation willingness to make space available

:20:08.:20:09.

to provide video link facilities the ministers has mentioned. Where is

:20:10.:20:18.

the evidence to show that will be made and to show that the equipment

:20:19.:20:22.

will be available and usable. We have had honourable friends making

:20:23.:20:27.

the point about rural access to broadband services but that is

:20:28.:20:31.

equally relevant to rather hide where BT have not provided the

:20:32.:20:33.

capacity to meet local demand. Without the capacity to deliver the

:20:34.:20:47.

justice we know that is needed it seems the Ministry of Justice is

:20:48.:20:51.

rushing into these proposals and is passing the buck to other parts of

:20:52.:20:57.

the public sector and to individuals. Individuals who have

:20:58.:21:00.

experienced crime or misfortune and are now being served another layer

:21:01.:21:05.

of injustice. In conclusion I am not opposed to modernisation but without

:21:06.:21:11.

those commitments it is a risky agenda and I hope, I believe it is

:21:12.:21:16.

vital the government provides those assessments before it pushes ahead.

:21:17.:21:25.

Can I begin by congratulating my right honourable friend for securing

:21:26.:21:30.

this debate. And can I say I think the general tone of this debate has

:21:31.:21:34.

been one that nobody is opposed to change and can I start by saying

:21:35.:21:39.

that is where I start from. The justice system needs to change like

:21:40.:21:45.

any other public service. But as my honourable friend for Wakefield said

:21:46.:21:49.

it is the root cause of this, whether we like it or not, is to

:21:50.:21:57.

save money. The agenda being portrayed by the Chancellor of the

:21:58.:22:01.

Exchequer of small state conservatism that he longs for. That

:22:02.:22:08.

has made the system not only threw up some very peculiar examples of

:22:09.:22:16.

injustice but also the fact of the matter is the ludicrous situations

:22:17.:22:20.

where for example the member for Torbay raised where you had a

:22:21.:22:23.

Magistrates' Court were substantial investment was made a year or so ago

:22:24.:22:31.

on the know to be written off. It was said that the consultation had

:22:32.:22:39.

been flawed and I have two agree on that. Because clearly the assumption

:22:40.:22:43.

made in this was that these courts were going to close and that people

:22:44.:22:50.

could travel to the courts which would remain open. What didn't, what

:22:51.:22:57.

wasn't taken into consideration was those people who don't have access

:22:58.:23:02.

to cars. In the consultation in the north-east for example in my

:23:03.:23:10.

constituency, people use, they Euston Magistrates' Court in

:23:11.:23:13.

concert. We are told that in the consultation that if they wear to

:23:14.:23:16.

have to travel where they are going to have two now they could go by

:23:17.:23:22.

train. This would be a security as root seeing as there is no train

:23:23.:23:28.

station in Peterlee for example. If you did it by public transport to

:23:29.:23:32.

get the four 9:30am you would have two set off at something like 7am

:23:33.:23:37.

and that is dependent on public transport being available.

:23:38.:23:42.

Completely forgetting and not recognising the rural nature of my

:23:43.:23:47.

and my colleague's will constituency. I think that's been

:23:48.:23:54.

the main floor. -- rural constituency -- main floor. I think

:23:55.:24:00.

the Minister is committed to change although he does have this sword

:24:01.:24:05.

hanging over his head in terms of trying to find the costs. But unlike

:24:06.:24:10.

the honourable member I made representations about proposals for

:24:11.:24:16.

North Durham, my constituents will have to travel to Peterlee

:24:17.:24:20.

Magistrates' Court, again something which will take over two hours on

:24:21.:24:24.

public transport if it is possible to get there on time. If my

:24:25.:24:31.

honourable member for West Durham will find it even more difficult. I

:24:32.:24:37.

suggested to him a proposal for them to travel to Newcastle or at

:24:38.:24:44.

Gateshead would be more, would make more sense, it is a lot quicker to

:24:45.:24:50.

get from my constituency to Gateshead or Newcastle Magistrates'

:24:51.:24:55.

Court. I also told by the local head of the CPS that there is spare

:24:56.:25:00.

capacity in those two courts. So I wrote on the 20th of February and I

:25:01.:25:04.

was disappointed to get a letter this morning which said that

:25:05.:25:09.

proposal was not possible and that my constituents are going to have to

:25:10.:25:14.

travel to Peterlee. It makes no sense whatsoever when you can get

:25:15.:25:18.

from my constituency to Newcastle in ten minutes on the train as opposed

:25:19.:25:26.

to two hours to Peterlee. I would asked to again look at those

:25:27.:25:31.

proposals. I accepted this problem that people have, that we are going

:25:32.:25:35.

to have to cross county boundaries, but it will make it a lot easier for

:25:36.:25:40.

many of my constituents to do that. There is a fundamental problem with

:25:41.:25:44.

the proposals being put forward and the cost driven nature of them. It

:25:45.:25:48.

has been raised by a number of members today and it is a serious

:25:49.:25:53.

one for the magistrates service and those dedicated individuals who give

:25:54.:26:00.

their time to serve as magistrates. That is access to local justice,

:26:01.:26:02.

justice is supposed to be dispensed locally and these proposals make

:26:03.:26:10.

that not the case in future. I am not opposed to new technology, I

:26:11.:26:15.

have actually spent a lot of time in court recently. The reason being I

:26:16.:26:20.

have been doing a fellowship with the parliamentary trust and I have

:26:21.:26:23.

to say that speaking to the professionals that I have over my

:26:24.:26:27.

visits is that they are not opposed to change but what they keep telling

:26:28.:26:32.

me is that there is a shortage of cash in the system. So if we are

:26:33.:26:36.

going to get to the situation which I think generally the minister wants

:26:37.:26:42.

to achieve in terms of local video conferencing, there will have to be

:26:43.:26:45.

some upfront money put into the system to do it. Otherwise what we

:26:46.:26:48.

will cuts have been made, we keep the

:26:49.:26:55.

courts we have got and that'll be it. I think that'll be a mistake

:26:56.:27:07.

because the dispensing of local justice, there are things I think

:27:08.:27:11.

which need to be looked at, what goes to Magistrates' Court if it is

:27:12.:27:15.

quite simply non-violent things which people will not be sentenced

:27:16.:27:20.

to prison for, I think they can be done in other settings but the cash

:27:21.:27:24.

has to be there. My experience in the last few weeks in visiting the

:27:25.:27:28.

Court service throughout this country as part of the trust is that

:27:29.:27:35.

there is not the actual cash upfront to do what I think would make sense,

:27:36.:27:40.

not only to support the professionals but more importantly

:27:41.:27:45.

at the end of the day support our constituents who not only want

:27:46.:27:48.

access to justice if they are bound before a court but I think again as

:27:49.:27:55.

others have said, and it is sometimes forgotten, the role of the

:27:56.:28:00.

victim. That they are seeing that justice is being done and if

:28:01.:28:03.

obstacles are put in their place such as access to travel to

:28:04.:28:08.

Magistrates' Court that will be a problem for them. I would ask the

:28:09.:28:14.

Minister to take a step back. Certainly in terms of giving some

:28:15.:28:19.

commitments because I would like to see a timetable, if he's going to

:28:20.:28:22.

implement these other proposals which I think he generally wants to

:28:23.:28:26.

do, he has to set out how it will happen. And can I ask him to look

:28:27.:28:31.

again at proposals for North Durham because it makes no sense

:28:32.:28:35.

whatsoever, people being able to drive ten minutes to Newcastle to

:28:36.:28:39.

access justice or two hours to Peterlee and again it comes from

:28:40.:28:44.

that point. The people who drew up this consultation and never looked

:28:45.:28:48.

at local geography and again assumed everyone had access to a car. In my

:28:49.:28:53.

rule constituency people don't have access to a car, public transport is

:28:54.:29:01.

intermittent and if that put an obstacle in the way of them getting

:29:02.:29:04.

justice I have to see any modern society like ours that is a scandal.

:29:05.:29:11.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I thank the right honourable member

:29:12.:29:25.

for bringing this important matter before the House? My honourable

:29:26.:29:32.

friend spoke passionately about the closure of the Magistrates' Courts

:29:33.:29:35.

and the civil courts after thousands of pounds had been spent. My

:29:36.:29:41.

honourable friend, the member for Wakefield, told the house about the

:29:42.:29:47.

U-turns on many policies including the scrapping of two tier contracts

:29:48.:29:50.

costing the Ministry of Justice hundreds of thousands. The

:29:51.:29:56.

honourable member told the house the minister has a black belt in martial

:29:57.:30:01.

arts. I am a fourth dan black belt in judo but that is another story

:30:02.:30:10.

for another day! My honourable friend, the member for Hartlepool,

:30:11.:30:14.

told about the very good facilities in the Magistrates' Courts and the

:30:15.:30:17.

closure would not save money. My honourable friend, the member for

:30:18.:30:21.

Halifax, told about the massive impact on her constituents. My

:30:22.:30:26.

honourable friend, the member for Durham, mentioned that the

:30:27.:30:30.

consultation said travel by train. There is no train station in

:30:31.:30:37.

Peterlee or consulate. The honourable member for Bermondsey and

:30:38.:30:40.

Southwark raised an issue that had not been raised before, the impact

:30:41.:30:45.

of closures on law students. From the other side of the honourable

:30:46.:30:49.

member from High Peak who spoke about the closures in his areas. The

:30:50.:30:54.

chair of the Justice select committee, the honourable mother for

:30:55.:30:57.

Bromley and Chislehurst brought his vast experience to the debate and

:30:58.:31:02.

his mobile phone made an intervention at a crucial time, I

:31:03.:31:08.

thought. And the honourable member for Torbay was disappointed that the

:31:09.:31:15.

closure of his local Magistrates' Courts had taken place and we need a

:31:16.:31:19.

long-term plan. The honourable member for Hazel Grove and his

:31:20.:31:26.

campaign to keep Stockport open and the many interventions. They have

:31:27.:31:32.

all set out eloquently the issues at State of vital importance to access

:31:33.:31:37.

to local justice. We do recognise that savings have been made in these

:31:38.:31:41.

difficult and economic times. We have only just heard from the

:31:42.:31:45.

transfer how he has failed to meet his own economic targets and

:31:46.:31:48.

therefore further savings need to be found. We disagree profoundly

:31:49.:31:52.

however as to how these savings should and could be made. We'd be

:31:53.:31:57.

mentally argued that across-the-board, cuts to vital and

:31:58.:32:02.

local services are unjust. -- we vehemently argued. If not

:32:03.:32:10.

implemented fairly, this would increasingly create a two-tiered

:32:11.:32:14.

justice system and hamper access to justice. Particularly for the most

:32:15.:32:19.

vulnerable in our society. In the first instance, the basis for the

:32:20.:32:24.

current proposals were based on a flawed consultation process. That

:32:25.:32:29.

gets flawed results. Indeed, the minister apologised for these many

:32:30.:32:32.

areas. It does call into question the basis for the listed 86 courts

:32:33.:32:39.

that are being considered for closure. The announcement on these

:32:40.:32:43.

potential closures was made on the last day before the February recess,

:32:44.:32:49.

making this debate all the more important in order to ensure proper

:32:50.:32:55.

Parliamentary scrutiny. One of the criteria for the consultation was

:32:56.:32:59.

utilisation. On the face of it hit seems a reasonable criteria. We must

:33:00.:33:04.

also bear in mind that fewer hearings are taking place because of

:33:05.:33:10.

broader cuts in the sector. Cuts to legal aid means fewer people have

:33:11.:33:14.

records to justice. That is not the right result. Due to a shortage of

:33:15.:33:19.

staff and judges, since 2010, the courts and tribunals service has

:33:20.:33:25.

been cut by 5000 staff and is set to lose a further 5000 to 6000 by 20

:33:26.:33:32.

20. PCS, union which includes the union working in Her Majesty 's

:33:33.:33:36.

Courts and Tribunal services, the Crown Prosecution Service 's and the

:33:37.:33:41.

private sector prison guard service has stated that high utilisation

:33:42.:33:46.

rates can only be achieved by listing several MP contested matters

:33:47.:33:49.

in the same court on the basis they will not all be effective. Before

:33:50.:33:55.

the hearings are effective and one or more cases has to be delayed, it

:33:56.:34:00.

adds inconvenience. Lack of available court time for listing

:34:01.:34:04.

cases, often due to a shortage of staff, causes cases to be adjourned

:34:05.:34:09.

for long periods. Many courts already struggled to lift family

:34:10.:34:13.

multi-day cases due to the lack of courtrooms and lack of staff. This

:34:14.:34:23.

often means cancelling courts and cause further delays. A report on

:34:24.:34:28.

the closures consultation means figures over estimate the time these

:34:29.:34:35.

courts can be used. For example, they cite that North Haven

:34:36.:34:41.

Magistrates' Court has a maximum utilisation of 1240 days, according

:34:42.:34:45.

to government assessments. Staff working there put it at 992 days. In

:34:46.:34:51.

many instances, we have heard from honourable members that travel times

:34:52.:34:59.

of these court closures will cause unacceptable inconvenience to

:35:00.:35:03.

constituents. According to the Government, they say that most

:35:04.:35:07.

people will still be able to reach a court within a one-hour car journey.

:35:08.:35:12.

It has been said on a number of occasions, and most recently by the

:35:13.:35:17.

Law Society, that the methodology used to calculate travel times was

:35:18.:35:22.

not transfer -- transparent or independently verified. Travel time

:35:23.:35:27.

is given in the consultation paper represent the best case scenario. I

:35:28.:35:30.

know from my own experience that since Neath Magistrates' Court

:35:31.:35:36.

closed in May 2014, my constituents have had to travel to Swansea,

:35:37.:35:41.

denying them access to local justice in that own community. Constituents

:35:42.:35:46.

and magistrates and local solicitors working in the area suggest that

:35:47.:35:52.

closure of a local court has had a meditative impact locally. Several

:35:53.:35:57.

areas of my constituency are far removed from the courts. They are

:35:58.:36:05.

now experiencing use in Swansea. Public transport is limited. It

:36:06.:36:09.

operates infrequently. The travelling times far exceed the

:36:10.:36:13.

so-called one-hour travel time limit. With opposing sides victims,

:36:14.:36:19.

witnesses and perpetrators potentially sat on the same bus or

:36:20.:36:24.

train. Now the Neath civil and family Court is on the list of

:36:25.:36:28.

closures. This will mean that constituents will have to travel to

:36:29.:36:33.

port Tolbert. They will have to join the people who have also been moved

:36:34.:36:43.

from another civil and family Court at Bridgend. I visited the court at

:36:44.:36:47.

Port Talbot and questioned whether it could there be increased workflow

:36:48.:36:51.

and whether it would be sufficient for the purposes. The journey from

:36:52.:36:56.

Glyn Neath to Port Talbot takes one hour and 35 minutes. There is added

:36:57.:37:05.

walking time and not allowing for heavy traffic problems. Those on low

:37:06.:37:11.

incomes often have to choose between buying necessities or the cost of

:37:12.:37:16.

travel to court, causing hardship at what is already a stressful time.

:37:17.:37:20.

The closures have caused great inconvenience to many people in

:37:21.:37:24.

Neath, who may find themselves victims of spurious allegations or

:37:25.:37:29.

being charged unnecessarily. Victims of domestic abuse, for example, have

:37:30.:37:33.

to travel further to seek emergency protection at a critical time when

:37:34.:37:37.

any delays could lead to wreck too further and serious harm. In

:37:38.:37:41.

addition to affecting our constituents, who are forced to

:37:42.:37:44.

travel further afield, the closures will mean redundancies and lost

:37:45.:37:48.

jobs. They note that in many constituencies across the UK, every

:37:49.:37:56.

job is much needed. -- I know. Even if jobs are retained, the higher

:37:57.:38:01.

travelling times, it will particularly impact those staff with

:38:02.:38:07.

caring responsibilities and no staff with disabilities. The consultation

:38:08.:38:10.

did not address this aspect of the closures. The court closures will

:38:11.:38:15.

also have broader implications. In Neath, now the Magistrates' Court is

:38:16.:38:20.

closed, the police are forced to travel all the way to Swansea to get

:38:21.:38:24.

warrants, taking away valuable time on the beat. I am sure this is the

:38:25.:38:29.

case in many other areas and these issues should also be addressed in

:38:30.:38:34.

light of future closures. I have spoken to many working women and

:38:35.:38:38.

alongside our justice system and I hear time and again of a perfect

:38:39.:38:41.

storm of pressure on the court's system. There will be more time and

:38:42.:38:50.

more follow-up work by the courts. At the centre may have been cuts to

:38:51.:38:54.

the numbers of administrators and clerks in the court service. We're

:38:55.:38:59.

looking at a raft of court closures. The consequences are frustrating for

:39:00.:39:03.

users and those working there. Increased waiting time outside

:39:04.:39:07.

courts would mean uncertainty around when cases would be heard,

:39:08.:39:11.

particularly problematic for those reliant on public transport or when

:39:12.:39:16.

parties are distressed. They include valuable people, all who have young

:39:17.:39:21.

children waiting with them at court. Lack of availability of court time

:39:22.:39:27.

means delays in procedures. For example, a transferred tenancy

:39:28.:39:32.

application in a domestic abuse and financial remedies case, which would

:39:33.:39:36.

normally last half a day at Edmonton County Court was waiting seven and a

:39:37.:39:39.

half months for listing for the final hearing. The higher volumes of

:39:40.:39:45.

cases at fewer call centres, the buildings themselves will come under

:39:46.:39:49.

pressure. It is not unusual for advocates to have to discuss highly

:39:50.:39:54.

confidential and sometimes highly distressing matters sat on the floor

:39:55.:39:58.

of a corridor or in a stairwell because conference rooms are full.

:39:59.:40:04.

Let us not forget the impact on jurors, not included on the list of

:40:05.:40:11.

affected groups. On many occasions in this House, we have heard how the

:40:12.:40:16.

wonders of technology work in transforming the judicial service,

:40:17.:40:18.

making proximity to court building is a thing of the past. I am not one

:40:19.:40:24.

to stand in the way of progress. We simply have not had to date a

:40:25.:40:28.

sufficient, or indeed any, explanation of how the judicial

:40:29.:40:32.

system fit for the 21st century and beyond will function. We have been

:40:33.:40:36.

told by the minister about the use of video conferencing. For the most

:40:37.:40:43.

honourable in society, who are most in need of support, those who do not

:40:44.:40:48.

own a car and are relied on public transport for travel to court, it is

:40:49.:40:52.

possible they do not have reliable, secure and private intranet access

:40:53.:40:56.

will do many of my constituents in Neath, like so many of the

:40:57.:40:59.

honourable members we have heard today, do not own a computer or

:41:00.:41:04.

smartphone. They have no internet access at home and all local

:41:05.:41:07.

libraries seem to be closing due to local authority cuts. We need a real

:41:08.:41:12.

exhalation as to how this practice will work, how will have honourable

:41:13.:41:17.

victims be kept safe and secure doing any online or remote receiving

:41:18.:41:22.

is? -- file honourable victims. Proper support needs to be

:41:23.:41:27.

considered. We are also due up proper explanation of costs

:41:28.:41:31.

involved. I recently met with the personal support unit, which

:41:32.:41:37.

provides guidance for court users. Hoping to translate the very

:41:38.:41:40.

specific language and procedures in the court service in delayed terms,

:41:41.:41:46.

they indicated it is far more about in person support. Also about

:41:47.:41:50.

compassion and sympathy, reassurance and guidance, in a difficult and

:41:51.:41:59.

vulnerable time. This cannot be provided by a teleconference.

:42:00.:42:04.

Moreover, the Government case for the closures is underpinned by and

:42:05.:42:10.

tested digital processes. According to the PCS union, the national

:42:11.:42:13.

roll-out of a number of digital products have been delayed as they

:42:14.:42:21.

were not fit for purpose. I thank my honourable friend were gaining

:42:22.:42:23.

weight of the doctors she grew is made the system is in failure, so

:42:24.:42:28.

how could the minister possibly assert this is a good replacement

:42:29.:42:37.

for the estate? -- my honourable friend for giving way will stop I

:42:38.:42:44.

would like to refer to the uniform which is used to calculate assets in

:42:45.:42:53.

divorce cases. -- referred to the form. There was a fault in the form.

:42:54.:42:59.

It was corrected by the minister. Over 36,000 cases obtained forms in

:43:00.:43:06.

the period affected. The minister regretted the error and said this

:43:07.:43:11.

set aside would not attract the fees. He needed advice over complex

:43:12.:43:16.

issues and that would not be there for them through legal aid. I would

:43:17.:43:21.

also referred to the client and cost management system. Due to compulsory

:43:22.:43:31.

use -- due to come into compulsory use in April 20 16. Over the past

:43:32.:43:36.

few weeks, it was said many legal aid firms are unable to access the

:43:37.:43:40.

situation they get thrown out when they are submitting the form. The

:43:41.:43:45.

system is not fit for purpose. This should be delayed. Lastly, the

:43:46.:43:51.

online court proposals for online court is up to ?25,000. Individuals

:43:52.:43:57.

would have no legal ad vice for that and maybe up against big

:43:58.:44:01.

organisations with only good teams, which be a major disadvantage and

:44:02.:44:05.

therefore I think this needs rigorous testing, and evaluation.

:44:06.:44:10.

What happens in the event of technological failures? What happens

:44:11.:44:16.

in the instance of unreliable technology? These will undoubtedly

:44:17.:44:22.

cause further delays in proceedings rather than expediting them and

:44:23.:44:25.

adding to the stress for victims and witnesses. The Law Society

:44:26.:44:31.

acknowledges the aim of increasing the use of technology but during the

:44:32.:44:34.

consultation process recommended that it would be prudent to

:44:35.:44:39.

modernise courts with new technology, assess how it is working

:44:40.:44:41.

and then consider savings, rather than the other way around and I

:44:42.:44:47.

agree. I welcome the government 's desire to harness technology

:44:48.:44:51.

positively and efficiently but we need to hear more about these plans

:44:52.:44:55.

and surely these systems should be tested and piloted before many of

:44:56.:45:03.

these closures go ahead. Perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity

:45:04.:45:05.

now to explain in detail what his thinking is. And how it will work

:45:06.:45:10.

for those who want access to justice. It should not lead to the

:45:11.:45:23.

haves and have-nots. Finally, I wish to highlight that the last round of

:45:24.:45:29.

closures and use of these buildings following these closures. Many of

:45:30.:45:35.

the courts that are slated to close or have recently closed have better

:45:36.:45:37.

facilities than the alternatives people would be forced to travel to.

:45:38.:45:43.

I raised questions over the proceeds of sales of these buildings and the

:45:44.:45:53.

ongoing cost. These buildings tend to be prominently and conveniently

:45:54.:45:57.

located in town centres and if they are left to rack and ruin then they

:45:58.:46:01.

can have a negative effect on the town centre. The Ministry of Justice

:46:02.:46:07.

is still paying to maintain 15 of the courts closed in 2010. These are

:46:08.:46:12.

costing the taxpayer over ?40,000 per month secure and maintain. The

:46:13.:46:18.

most expensive upkeep is the former Magistrates' Court in Oulton,

:46:19.:46:22.

costing ?10,000 a month. The facilities that existed there for

:46:23.:46:26.

its users have not been replicated at the court that received the work.

:46:27.:46:32.

In some instances, the buildings are not suitable for any other use other

:46:33.:46:41.

than a court. In conclusion, it is unavoidable fact that savings needs

:46:42.:46:47.

to be identified in the court system as our colleagues have already said.

:46:48.:46:52.

One of the central talents of our common law system is the local

:46:53.:46:56.

delivery of local justice with access to justice for all. Any court

:46:57.:47:00.

closures must minimise the negative impact on access to justice for all

:47:01.:47:12.

our citizens. Thank you. May I start off by congratulating the honourable

:47:13.:47:24.

members who are on the order paper, and allowing the opportunity for

:47:25.:47:26.

colleagues to debate is very important issue one more time. May I

:47:27.:47:32.

also thank all the other people who have contributed. We will try to

:47:33.:47:37.

refer to them as best we can in the next few minutes. May I also take

:47:38.:47:41.

the opportunity to welcome the honourable member for Neath on have

:47:42.:47:45.

first outing at the dispatch box and I look forward to debating with her

:47:46.:47:52.

in the weeks and months ahead. I am keenly aware that members hold

:47:53.:47:56.

strong views about the importance of courts in their constituencies and

:47:57.:48:02.

the impact of the closure that they have on the delivery of justice.

:48:03.:48:06.

This has been abundantly clear today in the numerous other parliamentary

:48:07.:48:14.

debates I have had, as well as questions and meetings I have had

:48:15.:48:18.

with honourable members, and letters I have written in response to the

:48:19.:48:21.

correspondence that they have engaged in. I very much, Mr Deputy

:48:22.:48:26.

Speaker, understand the sincerity of those concerns. I hope however that

:48:27.:48:31.

honourable members will appreciate that the decision to close a court

:48:32.:48:37.

is not one that I take lightly. It is a decision that I'm prepared to

:48:38.:48:41.

make when it is necessary to do so to support the social reform of our

:48:42.:48:47.

court and Tribunal system, and to bring the court system up to the

:48:48.:48:53.

modern 21st century. We need to create a modern and flexible court

:48:54.:48:58.

and tribunal service fit for the modern 21st-century as I say. Court

:48:59.:49:04.

staff and the judiciary work very hard but they face challenges to

:49:05.:49:09.

deliver a sufficient service when infrastructure that supports the

:49:10.:49:11.

administration 's is inefficient and disjointed.

:49:12.:49:18.

Some of the technology that supports services is decades old. -- courts.

:49:19.:49:23.

Few services we offer can be accessed online. We continue to use

:49:24.:49:28.

paper forms and when court users need to make a payment, we often

:49:29.:49:35.

only accept cash or cheque. We need to modernise the way courts and

:49:36.:49:40.

tribunal 's operates to reduce efficiencies. We need to open up new

:49:41.:49:44.

ways for the public to access justice. The government is

:49:45.:49:47.

supporting this reform with a very significant investment. ?700 million

:49:48.:49:55.

over the next four years will transform the experience of everyone

:49:56.:49:59.

who comes into contact with courts and the tribunal. We will provide

:50:00.:50:05.

new services and deliver better more joined up ways of working across the

:50:06.:50:09.

justice system. These reforms will increase access to justice by making

:50:10.:50:14.

it swifter and easier to use, and more efficient. I appreciate that

:50:15.:50:18.

some people have concerns about the consultation exercise that we

:50:19.:50:25.

conducted, and I have apologised at the dispatch box for errors that

:50:26.:50:28.

have occurred in some of the individual court areas concerned.

:50:29.:50:34.

But I want to assure... I will in a moment. I want to assure the House

:50:35.:50:39.

that whilst there were some inaccuracies, the decisions that

:50:40.:50:44.

were finally taken were taken on the correct information and the

:50:45.:50:49.

decisions were taken after careful incineration of all the submissions

:50:50.:50:58.

that were made well over 2100. Thank you for giving way and I should

:50:59.:51:01.

apologise for not being here for much of the debate due to other

:51:02.:51:06.

parliamentary business. I don't like having to intervene on so kindly

:51:07.:51:14.

Minister but frankly these closures for justice are not a policy, they

:51:15.:51:21.

are a negation of a policy. -- for Chichester. Everybody understands

:51:22.:51:25.

the need for financial stringency, but no economic rationales have been

:51:26.:51:29.

provided, despite repeated requests, for these closures, and until it is

:51:30.:51:34.

rightly, I think people will be deeply concerned about it. The court

:51:35.:51:38.

using Chichester is above the national average, the travel times

:51:39.:51:43.

are seriously flawed, will the Minister now at least be prepared to

:51:44.:51:49.

reconsider where no economic case has been provided? I hope that I

:51:50.:51:56.

will get some time in June of that intervention. -- due. My right

:51:57.:52:06.

honourable friend speaks with passion and he and I have

:52:07.:52:11.

corresponded much and have met many occasions. In fact, it is probably

:52:12.:52:16.

fair to say that I have dreaded entering the tearoom when I knew he

:52:17.:52:19.

was there because he would come along and speak to me. I think he

:52:20.:52:24.

would agree that I have tried to give him the best information that I

:52:25.:52:29.

can but we will have to agree to disagree in terms of the final

:52:30.:52:34.

conclusion that he once. We have listened carefully and that is why,

:52:35.:52:41.

in addition to the five court buildings we have maintained, we

:52:42.:52:46.

have modified additional plans for a further 22 sites, and the honourable

:52:47.:52:52.

lady who opens the debates, she will be mindful of that week is of course

:52:53.:52:59.

the court work was going to be transferred initially to another

:53:00.:53:01.

court, Wandsworth, six miles away from Lambert, but will now be just

:53:02.:53:06.

two miles away at Camberwell Green, and that was a consequence of the

:53:07.:53:10.

meeting we had, and engagement with the local community. -- Lambeth. In

:53:11.:53:17.

eight of the 22 sites where changes have been made, we will not close

:53:18.:53:21.

the court in suitable alternatives... I will shortly.

:53:22.:53:27.

Until suitable local alternative provision is in place. Work is

:53:28.:53:31.

underway to determine the specific provision that will be provided at

:53:32.:53:36.

each of the locations. Work is underway to evaluate a number of

:53:37.:53:39.

options for holding hearings away from traditional court buildings and

:53:40.:53:44.

I expect further testing to take place over the coming months. Can we

:53:45.:53:50.

quickly clarify whether what he had said is accurate? He's indicating

:53:51.:53:55.

that all of the cases that were to be held in Putney will be helping

:53:56.:54:03.

Camberwell. -- held in. How much of the 7 million budget is going to go

:54:04.:54:06.

to police facilities or council facilities to make sure video link

:54:07.:54:15.

is possible for people? This is a four-year reform programme, worth

:54:16.:54:19.

over ?700 million, and clearly the intention is to make sure we have

:54:20.:54:22.

one of the best justice systems in the world. I am not going to give

:54:23.:54:26.

him the details right now in terms of the precise minutiae of breakdown

:54:27.:54:33.

of a four-year programme with so much money. The honourable gentleman

:54:34.:54:41.

says, I don't know but I would say to him that if he had experience

:54:42.:54:44.

with business, he would know that in a four-year programme with such a

:54:45.:54:48.

huge sum of money, the figures aren't as precise as he would like

:54:49.:54:56.

them at the initial stage. An important aspect of this testing and

:54:57.:54:59.

evaluation will be making sure any hearings that I held outside of a

:55:00.:55:05.

traditional court of appropriate levels of security for the public,

:55:06.:55:09.

judiciary and court staff. The issue of travel time was mentioned by a

:55:10.:55:13.

number of people. What I would say is that there needs to be a

:55:14.:55:20.

fundamental recognition that far fewer people would have to travel to

:55:21.:55:28.

court in the first place. We intend to use modern technology, there are

:55:29.:55:33.

already video conferencing facilities available, and the charge

:55:34.:55:37.

made by the honourable member for need, the shadow opposition member,

:55:38.:55:44.

has this been tested in any way, well, what I would say to her is

:55:45.:55:47.

that we already have video conferencing facilities. -- Neath.

:55:48.:55:52.

For example, there is a community centre in Wales used to give

:55:53.:55:57.

evidence. What I am keen to emphasise is that we also already

:55:58.:56:03.

have alternative places that are used as courts. We have had tribunal

:56:04.:56:08.

's conducted on oil rigs in the North Sea. Only yesterday, a

:56:09.:56:16.

colleague of ours, a lawyer, told me of probation cases that she was

:56:17.:56:22.

involved in in public houses. I will give way. I don't disagree with them

:56:23.:56:31.

about new technology but try asking to look at my constituency in North

:56:32.:56:35.

Durham. It is nonsense that people can travel to Newcastle in 10-15

:56:36.:56:39.

minutes, instead of travelling to Peterlee. I have raised it before

:56:40.:56:43.

but please look at it again because it makes no sense. There comes a

:56:44.:56:48.

point when you have got to start taking decisions and you have to

:56:49.:56:53.

agree to disagree. This whole programme started before last year's

:56:54.:56:59.

summer recess. We had a very lengthy consultation period, I have had

:57:00.:57:03.

numerous debates, I have met more people in this House than I can

:57:04.:57:07.

remember, and there has been huge dialogue. I am afraid there needs to

:57:08.:57:13.

be recognition that we have listened and made changes in a huge number of

:57:14.:57:17.

cases. It may not be the case in your case but I'm afraid we will

:57:18.:57:22.

have to agree to disagree. Mr Deputy Speaker, my honourable friend, the

:57:23.:57:27.

Member for High Peak, raised concerns about the effectiveness of

:57:28.:57:31.

the administration process that will see the programme through and I want

:57:32.:57:35.

to emphasise to him that I will be keeping a very sharp eye on

:57:36.:57:39.

proceedings and if he has any concerns with his local area, I am

:57:40.:57:43.

more than happy to maintain a meeting with senior people at a

:57:44.:57:47.

local level so he has the comfort he once. The honourable member for

:57:48.:57:54.

Bridgend spoke of the wonderful work magistrates do in our courts and I

:57:55.:57:58.

can only echo those comments and say that many of them recognised the

:57:59.:58:04.

need for reform. My honourable friend, the Member for Chislehurst,

:58:05.:58:09.

spoke about the very useful work of the Justice Select Committee, and he

:58:10.:58:14.

also brought his own expertise to the House. He also questioned the

:58:15.:58:21.

reliability of the IT projects that we will undertake and I want to

:58:22.:58:24.

emphasise to him that we are taking a staged approach, and not one where

:58:25.:58:30.

we are putting all our eggs into one vast, and we are bringing in expert

:58:31.:58:40.

advice from outside to assist us. I will briefly give way but I must

:58:41.:58:45.

make progress. Can you deal with the question about what has happened to

:58:46.:58:48.

the ten courts close under the previous programme, if he doesn't

:58:49.:58:54.

have the information to hand, can he look in the library? That ten is now

:58:55.:59:02.

reduced to nine and there are put in place to sell some of the courts and

:59:03.:59:07.

some of the courts have had genuine difficulties, and there has been

:59:08.:59:12.

joint occupation with other parties and for the remaining courts, we

:59:13.:59:14.

hope to transfer them to the HCA. go through a terrifying experience

:59:15.:59:56.

whereas with a video conferencing facility are not

:59:57.:00:08.

going out my honourable friend, I am grateful for his comments and those

:00:09.:00:14.

that he made confirming that this is a genuine consultation. The

:00:15.:00:23.

honourable member for Ynys Mon raised the point of digital

:00:24.:00:28.

infrastructure, we will take this on board and certainly make sure that

:00:29.:00:34.

it is on board to support the court reform programme. My honourable

:00:35.:00:37.

friend the Member for Torbay spoke about low-level offences, like TV

:00:38.:00:43.

licence offences, and he was seeking assurance that perhaps they could go

:00:44.:00:48.

to a close court. Mr Deputy Speaker, the way we are thinking is that this

:00:49.:00:52.

is the sort of stuff out a low-level that could probably be dealt with

:00:53.:00:56.

online, for the majority of cases where people plead guilty. The

:00:57.:01:07.

honourable member for Merionydd give a powerful speech and raised

:01:08.:01:11.

concerns about access to justice. We are very mindful of rural areas and

:01:12.:01:15.

mindful that we get it right and I am very keen that England will

:01:16.:01:19.

earlier is, having a constituency with auroral element, and wishes

:01:20.:01:26.

coming from. I will give way. The Minister has already mentioned

:01:27.:01:30.

alternative arrangements for eight courts, could he provide more

:01:31.:01:35.

details on that? The honourable lady will forgive me if I don't give

:01:36.:01:38.

detailed provisions on eight courts at the dispatch box. Time is best.

:01:39.:01:44.

I'm happy to write to her in detail and I certainly will do that. Mr

:01:45.:01:49.

Deputy Speaker, the honourable gentleman from Hartlepool, a good

:01:50.:01:55.

friend of mine, again a passionate speech, and he said he would like

:01:56.:02:00.

some assurance that justice was not going to become more stressful. As I

:02:01.:02:03.

have said in the comments to the honourable member Wakefield, we hope

:02:04.:02:17.

that one day people will not have to travel as far, and that they will be

:02:18.:02:24.

able to give evidence in a closer more convenient location. The Member

:02:25.:02:28.

for Halifax, again a heartfelt speech. She spoke about technology.

:02:29.:02:32.

I can assure her that we will be dealing with the ?700 million in a

:02:33.:02:40.

careful way and making sure we get it right. To sum up, the honourable

:02:41.:02:46.

member for Bermondsey, he raised concerns particularly for his local

:02:47.:02:51.

court, I would say that while he's been passionate in defending his

:02:52.:02:55.

court the consultation got only to the sponsors from this community as

:02:56.:02:59.

regards his court, which perhaps, was to give him credit for wanting

:03:00.:03:04.

to keep the court open, the three responses speaks for itself. The

:03:05.:03:08.

honourable member for North Durham, I was pleased he welcomed the need

:03:09.:03:11.

for reform, and take on board what he says, but we will have to agree

:03:12.:03:18.

to disagree. And Mr Deputy Speaker in conclusion I want to conclude by

:03:19.:03:22.

thanking all honourable members and the two members who have managed to

:03:23.:03:27.

secure this debate today, and simply say that this is a major undertaking

:03:28.:03:32.

by the Ministry of Justice and we will be doing as best we can to make

:03:33.:03:36.

sure that we have a justice system fit for the world. Can I conclude by

:03:37.:03:41.

wishing you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and all honourable members and all the

:03:42.:03:46.

clocks are very happy Easter and for most importantly for all these

:03:47.:03:50.

people that continue to ensure that this place operates, especially the

:03:51.:03:55.

security services. Credit, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to thank every

:03:56.:03:58.

member who has contributed to this debate. The level of concern about

:03:59.:04:03.

the decision to close it is export tribunal is clear. Referred from

:04:04.:04:08.

across the chamber the concerns about physical accessibility is a

:04:09.:04:10.

reason for the closures, serious problems about the use of digital

:04:11.:04:15.

technology especially in areas with poor broadband. From a number of

:04:16.:04:21.

members about sensitive alternative proposals which are more responsive

:04:22.:04:24.

to local geography and democratics yet have been -- graphics yet have

:04:25.:04:33.

been rejected, which underpins the decision about the interrelationship

:04:34.:04:38.

with other public sector cuts. How can police stations provide video

:04:39.:04:41.

links when in my area so many have closed that those that remain are

:04:42.:04:47.

bursting at the seams. We've heard about other decisions including

:04:48.:04:50.

micro and cities enters. I've brought this debate because I am

:04:51.:04:55.

concerned that the decision to close 86 courts and tribunals that joined

:04:56.:05:00.

up plan to continue access the justice will have the greatest

:05:01.:05:03.

impact on vulnerable victims witnesses and defendants. It will

:05:04.:05:08.

cause additional costs to other public sector areas and have a

:05:09.:05:12.

serious impact on the effectiveness of our justice system. I'm grateful

:05:13.:05:16.

to the Minister for his response, I urge him to rethink his proposals

:05:17.:05:21.

and come back to the House with a comprehensive plan that addresses

:05:22.:05:24.

the many concerns that have been raised. The question is, on the

:05:25.:05:37.

order paper, as many of that opinion survey aye. The ayes have it,

:05:38.:05:45.

almost! We don't come to the debate on matters to be raised before the

:05:46.:05:52.

forthcoming adjournment. On behalf of the backbench business committee

:05:53.:05:56.

may I move that this House has considered matters to be raised

:05:57.:05:59.

before the forthcoming adjournment. On behalf of of the chairman of the

:06:00.:06:02.

backbench business committee, who gives his apologies because he has

:06:03.:06:06.

been called Web urgent constituency business. Mr Deputy Speaker, can I

:06:07.:06:13.

first put on record a very sad event. Today has seen the sad death

:06:14.:06:24.

of Johan Cruyff, one of the most brilliant footballers I have ever

:06:25.:06:28.

watched and one who will be remembered for his famous turn. This

:06:29.:06:34.

is also the festival of Beaulieu, as Jewish members will know, this

:06:35.:06:38.

commemorates the delivery of the Jewish people from the Persian king.

:06:39.:06:43.

He attempted the first genocide against the Jewish people and he

:06:44.:06:50.

failed. And we have seen the anniversary of the soup of the rise

:06:51.:06:53.

to power of Hitler in Germany where he inflicted of the rise to power of

:06:54.:07:00.

Hitler, we will forever remember those evil atrocities that he

:07:01.:07:03.

inflicted on the Jewish people and other people. Yet we will also

:07:04.:07:08.

remember on a brighter note the festival wholly. This is the

:07:09.:07:14.

festival of colours where we commemorate Lord Krishna, dancing

:07:15.:07:15.

and playing and throwing colours around. But it also demonstrates the

:07:16.:07:30.

delivery from the fire which is commemorated and today is the second

:07:31.:07:35.

day of this festival and I wish the Hindu and Sikh people everywhere are

:07:36.:07:39.

very happy festival. If I may, Mr Deputy Speaker, to recite the

:07:40.:07:44.

keywords searched doing this festival. And now if I can go on, Mr

:07:45.:07:49.

Deputy Speaker, to talk about some of the issues that I want to raise

:07:50.:07:53.

during this debate before we break the recess. The government has done

:07:54.:07:59.

an awful lot of work, yet there is much more to do. And locally. I come

:08:00.:08:05.

back to the absolute requirement for the left to be installed at Stanmore

:08:06.:08:12.

station. I hope the member from Leicester East, a resident of

:08:13.:08:16.

Stanmore, will no doubt concur with me for this desperate need. This has

:08:17.:08:20.

been going on for more than ten years, the plans for this. The north

:08:21.:08:25.

face of the I go, when residents arrive home at Stanmore station,

:08:26.:08:33.

having to climb 39 steep steps, it really is the 39 steps, and TEFL

:08:34.:08:39.

call this step free access! This has been going on ever since the former

:08:40.:08:44.

Mayor of London deleted it from the budget. And I trust that whoever is

:08:45.:08:49.

elected Mayor of London on May the 5th will deliver for us a lift at

:08:50.:08:52.

Stanmore which is desperately needed. Equally ruthless and other

:08:53.:08:58.

challenge and Stanmore in that Hertfordshire County Council wish to

:08:59.:09:05.

cancel their subsidy on the 142 and the 207 bus routes, a key

:09:06.:09:09.

requirement for people travelling between Watford and Brent Cross and

:09:10.:09:13.

as where. I trust that Hertfordshire County Council will see the justice

:09:14.:09:21.

in that allowing a subsidy to enable their residents to travel to these

:09:22.:09:25.

areas is vital because without that, key bus services to Watford will

:09:26.:09:30.

clearly be dramatically reduced. We have also heard during the Budget

:09:31.:09:34.

the welcome measure that Crossrail to is getting the go-ahead. And I

:09:35.:09:40.

trust that Crossrail and the two will listen to this key business

:09:41.:09:46.

case that we put to Harrow and Wealdstone as part of the massive

:09:47.:09:50.

redevelopment of Crossrail to which is welcomed across London. I've just

:09:51.:09:56.

spoken and will continue to agitate on the redevelopment of the Royal

:09:57.:10:01.

National Orthopaedic Hospital in Stanmore. A brilliant hospital that

:10:02.:10:05.

does brilliant work in completely ridiculous outrageous conditions for

:10:06.:10:11.

the medical professionals who perform such brilliant work. I will

:10:12.:10:16.

give way briefly. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will the honourable

:10:17.:10:25.

gentleman know that the radio hospital at Stanmore was Hospital

:10:26.:10:28.

radio of the year, a fantastic place where I started some of my

:10:29.:10:32.

journalism career and indeed which needs support. Great news but could

:10:33.:10:39.

you not save that for your speech because I'm bothered about time for

:10:40.:10:45.

the moment. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take your

:10:46.:10:50.

admonishment! May I just say that we are on the cusp of this

:10:51.:10:55.

redevelopment. We require the trust development authority to sign of the

:10:56.:10:59.

business case and then work. On the Orthopaedic Hospital immediately

:11:00.:11:04.

with the demolition of existing buildings, the building of a

:11:05.:11:07.

brand-new hospital, a private hospital it and the creation of 300

:11:08.:11:11.

new homes which are desperately needed in Harrow for people to live

:11:12.:11:17.

in. So clearly something that is being held up by NHS bureaucracy.

:11:18.:11:23.

The Chancellor granted the money in 2010 and we still await the prospect

:11:24.:11:32.

of that working. On housing, we have seen some 400 new starts in my

:11:33.:11:39.

constituency. With 560 new home completions in the last year alone

:11:40.:11:41.

bringing new homes for people in my constituency. And I am delighted

:11:42.:11:48.

that in the autumn spending review, the amount of money in spent on

:11:49.:11:53.

housing has been more than doubled. Something we should applaud.

:11:54.:12:00.

Locally, we have had a range of schools announced today, that part

:12:01.:12:04.

high school, Saint Bernadette 's, Canon 's high school, the Krishna

:12:05.:12:08.

Avanti school will all receive additional funding for massive

:12:09.:12:14.

improvements, must complete rebuilding as well as the Aylward

:12:15.:12:19.

school, which is in desperate need of new facilities. The reality is

:12:20.:12:24.

that we have also had the go-ahead, under the enlightened view of this

:12:25.:12:28.

government, of one primary school which will be the first Muslim state

:12:29.:12:33.

aided school, certainly in my constituency, which is one that I

:12:34.:12:37.

strongly support, and Avanti has school which will be the first state

:12:38.:12:42.

aided Hindu school for secondary aged children in this country. This

:12:43.:12:46.

is clearly something we can be proud of, and is being delivered in this

:12:47.:12:49.

multicultural society, we are providing parents with the choice of

:12:50.:12:57.

education that they want children. At ash Mac but there is bad news.

:12:58.:13:05.

The garden tax has been introduced, a collection for garden waste were

:13:06.:13:10.

?75 is charged to the service of collecting the garden waste, and

:13:11.:13:15.

it's only corrected once every three weeks the ?75. A princely sum. At

:13:16.:13:20.

the highest charge in London. A scandal because it is a monopoly

:13:21.:13:24.

service and virtually no one yet has registered to use the service and

:13:25.:13:28.

yet it is due to begin on April one. What an appropriate date to launch

:13:29.:13:34.

such a foolish scheme! At the same time, fly-tipping and Harrow is a

:13:35.:13:43.

disaster, we are seeing it all over the place, it's indeed shocking. And

:13:44.:13:48.

quite clearly the council should get their act together and clean up

:13:49.:13:51.

Harrow for the benefit of all people, and quite clearly if their

:13:52.:13:57.

failure to do so will make it even easier for the incoming Conservative

:13:58.:13:59.

administration of 2018 to deliver. raised in this house on numerous

:14:00.:15:15.

occasions the plight of the disabled in securing

:15:16.:15:18.

Everyday get individuals who are disabled and unable to walk any

:15:19.:15:22.

reasonable distance being prevented from getting a disabled parking

:15:23.:15:25.

permit. I want to mention one or two things before I sit down. I am used

:15:26.:15:39.

to barrack in from the other side... Can I raise the plight, as I have

:15:40.:15:46.

done during the budget debate, of the policyholders? The reality is

:15:47.:15:53.

that it is to the eternal praise of the Chancellor and his team that we

:15:54.:15:57.

honoured our election promise in 2010 and delivered a scheme to

:15:58.:16:00.

compensate the victims of this scandal. However, the reality is

:16:01.:16:05.

that we are still in the position whereby we have very vulnerable

:16:06.:16:11.

people who have only received a small fraction of the amount of

:16:12.:16:15.

money they would be to compared to the loss that they suffered. I

:16:16.:16:20.

believe we have a debt of honour to those people and we should honour

:16:21.:16:23.

that debt by delivering them 100% compensation. We also have a gap of

:16:24.:16:31.

certain other categories, nearly a million people who have not received

:16:32.:16:36.

for compensation. I believe those are also part of that debt of

:16:37.:16:39.

honour. We need to make sure more money is provided so that those

:16:40.:16:43.

people can this a proper life in retirement, because they did the

:16:44.:16:46.

right thing, they saved for their retirement. Through no fault of

:16:47.:16:51.

their own, because of a scandal, they were deprived of a reasonable

:16:52.:16:56.

income in retirement. And I can say that we have exceeded more than 200

:16:57.:17:00.

people of the eight Pichichi in this Parliament.

:17:01.:17:02.

We will continue the battle until such time as the Chancellor sees fit

:17:03.:17:09.

to let us have some money for those people who are due compensation. We

:17:10.:17:16.

have also recently released a report from the primary care and public

:17:17.:17:22.

health group. This is a key report about signposting people within the

:17:23.:17:28.

NHS. I would say very briefly, the reality is that in the primary care

:17:29.:17:33.

sector, far too often, individuals who are ill, arrived at accident and

:17:34.:17:36.

emergency when actually they should be seen by a doctor or a nurse in

:17:37.:17:41.

the primary care Centre, in the GP centre, and we must do more to

:17:42.:17:46.

ensure that they do that. On another health-related matter, namely

:17:47.:17:51.

stopping smoking. I warmly welcome the decision of the Chancellor to

:17:52.:17:58.

continue increasing the tobacco tax by 2% above inflation with an

:17:59.:18:01.

increase of 3% on hand-rolling tobacco. That's a good move and

:18:02.:18:06.

something that we should continue. However I think it's quite right

:18:07.:18:11.

that we should go further. Given the Chancellor has talked about the

:18:12.:18:15.

sugar tax to drive behaviour, let's have a tobacco tax that drives

:18:16.:18:18.

behaviour and delivers just by increasing the tax on tobacco by a

:18:19.:18:23.

penny a cigarette, we would deliver ?500 million a year that could be

:18:24.:18:27.

invested in smoking cessation services. Mr Deputy Speaker, just

:18:28.:18:34.

before I sit down, I will just say that I had the honour this year of

:18:35.:18:38.

taking part in my first visit to India. And my visit to cashmere

:18:39.:18:50.

cemented my view that this country and these people should be reunited

:18:51.:18:54.

as part of India and they should have the right to be integrated and

:18:55.:19:01.

that Pakistani forces should leave Pakistani occupied Kashmir. I also

:19:02.:19:07.

had the opportunity of visiting the world cultural festival and saw at

:19:08.:19:11.

first hand the festival, when we talk about the brilliant work done

:19:12.:19:17.

in the Olympics, this had 165,000 participants who were either dancing

:19:18.:19:22.

or performing and nearly 2,500,000 people attended. When we talk about

:19:23.:19:27.

the grand schemes we put on, just imagine what it is like to pull back

:19:28.:19:37.

together. Mr Deputy Speaker, can I wish you and the staff of the house

:19:38.:19:42.

are very happy Easter. I trust that you have had chance for a break. One

:19:43.:19:47.

thing I would say I am concerned about is that on Easter eggs now, we

:19:48.:19:52.

never see the word Easter. They are just chocolate eggs. It is time we

:19:53.:20:00.

restored the Easter to Easter eggs. Can I first of all save the question

:20:01.:20:05.

is that this house has considered matters to be raised before the

:20:06.:20:09.

forthcoming German, and can I now introduce a ten minute

:20:10.:20:14.

It is a huge pleasure following the honourable member for Harrow East

:20:15.:20:19.

who is a great champion of the ethnic minority communities. He has

:20:20.:20:23.

managed to mention every festival that has occurred in every community

:20:24.:20:29.

and even spoken Hindi in the house. It is a surprise it has taken him so

:20:30.:20:33.

long to get to India knowing his huge friendship with the Hindu and

:20:34.:20:39.

the Indian communities. I agree with what he says about Stanmore station.

:20:40.:20:43.

With type two diabetes it is quite good for me to climb those 39 steps

:20:44.:20:49.

at the end of every day. Can I ask him, since he is here, to take up

:20:50.:20:52.

the issue of the traffic on Brockley Hill. We will not wait for his

:20:53.:20:57.

response. The traffic is getting very fast. We miss having the

:20:58.:21:02.

honourable member for Finchley and Golders Green as the leader of

:21:03.:21:05.

Barnet Council because I know if he was there this would have been

:21:06.:21:09.

sorted out. I hope he will have a word with the honourable member for

:21:10.:21:12.

Hendon to see what can be done to reduce the traffic flow on the road.

:21:13.:21:18.

Mr Deputy Speaker, the honourable member mentioned anniversaries and

:21:19.:21:22.

festivals. I have a very sad anniversary to report to the house.

:21:23.:21:27.

Saturday 26th of March marks the first anniversary of the conflict in

:21:28.:21:32.

Yemen. Of course Yemen has been the subject of conflict for many, many

:21:33.:21:37.

years, but it's only recently that the conflict has turned to something

:21:38.:21:42.

of a civil war. The member for Glenrothes secured a debate on me

:21:43.:21:47.

yesterday in Westminster Hall about this matter and I commend him and

:21:48.:21:50.

others who have raised this matter in the house. In this time since the

:21:51.:21:57.

start of the conflict a year ago, 8800 civilians have been killed or

:21:58.:22:02.

injured, and at this moment 3 million children are out of school.

:22:03.:22:10.

Access to medication in besieged areas has become virtually

:22:11.:22:15.

impossible. Although I'm pleased to note the UN sponsored peace talks

:22:16.:22:20.

have been rescheduled for the 18th of April in Kuwait, these talks

:22:21.:22:26.

resumed some time ago before the adjournment and they can only

:22:27.:22:31.

succeed with a strong support of the United Kingdom government. And I

:22:32.:22:36.

urge that Deputy leader of the scum when she comes to respond, to pass

:22:37.:22:43.

on the hopes of all of us that the government will give its full

:22:44.:22:48.

support behind what is happening, their -- de deputy leader of the

:22:49.:22:56.

house. The all-party group yesterday heard from Amnesty International and

:22:57.:23:01.

the number of freelance journalist 's about the problems that still

:23:02.:23:05.

occur in Yemen. The situation is a catastrophe. And it is important

:23:06.:23:11.

that we work hard to resolve that conflict. I would particularly like

:23:12.:23:16.

to commend other members of the group who attended that meeting. Two

:23:17.:23:21.

of them born Mike myself in Yemen. The honourable member for Portsmouth

:23:22.:23:26.

South, the honourable member for Walsall South and the members for

:23:27.:23:33.

Glenrothes, Glasgow Central, Liverpool West, Derby, Worthing

:23:34.:23:37.

insurer, and the noble Baroness Uden, all of whom took time out of

:23:38.:23:42.

their very busy day to be there at the meeting when we heard this

:23:43.:23:49.

terrible update from those groups. Can I say this about the budget? I

:23:50.:23:53.

know it has been a subject of controversy in the house. But I

:23:54.:23:57.

liked one particular aspect, and that is the introduction of the

:23:58.:24:02.

sugar tax. I know Easter is not a good time to talk about not having

:24:03.:24:06.

too much sugar and not eating too many chocolates but actually I want

:24:07.:24:11.

to congratulate the Chancellor for taking the brave decision of

:24:12.:24:14.

introducing the sugar tax, and the public health minister, the member

:24:15.:24:19.

for Agassi and the diabetes are thought he has done. We should not

:24:20.:24:25.

wait the two years for the tax to be imposed. Government departments can

:24:26.:24:30.

act swiftly now. Simon Stephens, the chief executive of NHS England, has

:24:31.:24:35.

decided to impose his own 20% sugar tax across the NHS throughout

:24:36.:24:41.

England from February this year. The honourable member for Uxbridge and

:24:42.:24:44.

South Ruislip, before he gets to fund that left that the honourable

:24:45.:24:49.

member for Harrow wants so much, has imposed his own sugar tax in City

:24:50.:24:54.

Hall. I think we need to do this pretty rapidly, and we can do it

:24:55.:24:59.

even in this house. When we get to that even, to the counter to pay for

:25:00.:25:04.

our bananas and apples that I'm sure we buy when we get there, do we have

:25:05.:25:08.

to be confronted by club biscuits and Coca-Cola in the fridge? Let us

:25:09.:25:13.

make an effort in this house to make sure that members, when they get to

:25:14.:25:19.

that counter, are not suggest by those who would rather allow us to

:25:20.:25:24.

have products that are full of sugar. This week the government

:25:25.:25:28.

announced its national diabetes prevention programme. 100,000 people

:25:29.:25:33.

will be offered places to stop them developing type two diabetes. I am

:25:34.:25:37.

extremely pleased that the East Midlands has been selected, and that

:25:38.:25:42.

one of the areas will be in my constituency in Leicester East. I am

:25:43.:25:46.

concerned that the recent decision by the local health authority to

:25:47.:25:52.

take away the deathly services from the Leicester diabetes centre, and

:25:53.:25:59.

to give them to a private pharmaceutical company in order to

:26:00.:26:01.

make sure that type two diabetics get that support, I think these are

:26:02.:26:07.

the kinds of services that would be provided by those who have invented

:26:08.:26:13.

the scheme. Desmond was invented in Leicester. And Desmond has been

:26:14.:26:19.

rolled out throughout the country. Daphne, which is a scheme

:26:20.:26:27.

specifically for type one diabetes is itself under pressure. So when we

:26:28.:26:31.

get back after the recess I will certainly be raising the issue of

:26:32.:26:37.

Desmond and Daphne again. This is essential to ensuring that we get a

:26:38.:26:41.

proper service for those of us who are diabetics and those of us who

:26:42.:26:45.

want to ensure that diabetes is kept under control. I want to thank the

:26:46.:26:51.

deputy leader of the house for mentioning the Tiffin cup when she

:26:52.:26:53.

spoke earlier today. The honourable member for Southend is one of the

:26:54.:27:00.

great champions of the Tiffin cup, I think he's nominated every single

:27:01.:27:04.

time since it has been in existence. Dealing with products in food that

:27:05.:27:10.

are low-fat, I'm sure. I hope members when they go out for their

:27:11.:27:14.

Easter holidays will make sure they get their nominations in. I want to

:27:15.:27:20.

end first of all in echoing what the honourable member for Harrow East

:27:21.:27:23.

said about Johan Cruyff. He was a great footballer. I want to end by

:27:24.:27:29.

mentioning my own football team, the momentous season of Leicester City

:27:30.:27:32.

football club, leading the Premier League since before Christmas.

:27:33.:27:38.

Leicester City is also a Bastian of multiculturalism. Owned by a Thai,

:27:39.:27:45.

we have an Irish chief executive, an Italian manager and players from all

:27:46.:27:54.

over the world. Mahrez from Algeria, Kasper Schmeichel the great Dane,

:27:55.:28:00.

Robert Huth from Germany. Ozek you from Japan. And Jeffrey Schlupp from

:28:01.:28:10.

Ghana. And our own Vardy and Morgan. We have lots of home-grown players

:28:11.:28:16.

as well. It is marvellous to see a team like Leicester City, which I

:28:17.:28:19.

have supported for all the 29 years I have been a member of Parliament,

:28:20.:28:24.

not far from your constituency indeed. Breaking the monopoly of the

:28:25.:28:35.

big four. It was a sports agent who argued for a closed European

:28:36.:28:37.

champions system and that only the big four should be able to get to

:28:38.:28:42.

the Champions League every single year. I think Leicester City has

:28:43.:28:46.

shown, whatever the results at the end of the day, and obviously I hope

:28:47.:28:50.

that we will go through and lift the Premier League trophy, it is

:28:51.:28:54.

important to have teams like Leicester being able to compete at

:28:55.:28:59.

the highest level and indeed be at that head of the English Premier

:29:00.:29:04.

League, the greatest football league in the world. So, with seven games

:29:05.:29:09.

left, five points ahead, I do look forward to a very interesting two

:29:10.:29:15.

weeks but I hope that even if your team is Spurs or Arsenal and you

:29:16.:29:20.

want them to win the league, or West Ham, that you choose Leicester as

:29:21.:29:24.

your second choice. It sounds almost like an election. But I think that

:29:25.:29:29.

if we win that trophy it will be a huge boost for all those who feel

:29:30.:29:32.

that dream can really be lived. Sir David Amis. Before the house

:29:33.:29:44.

holed adjourns for the Easter recess and above points are to be raised

:29:45.:29:50.

and if take that were here they would sing it is good to be back!

:29:51.:29:57.

The happy line has now returned to the misery line. Although I am

:29:58.:30:02.

delighted to hear from one of our ministers this week that the

:30:03.:30:05.

Department for Transport will waive the clause in the franchise

:30:06.:30:10.

agreement that states that 95% of the trains must stop at Barking,

:30:11.:30:14.

West Ham and Limehouse. This will be a first move towards restoring the

:30:15.:30:19.

timetable changes that have upset so many people. I have to say, Madsm

:30:20.:30:23.

Deputy Speaker, shame on marginal express, writing to the chairman of

:30:24.:30:28.

the Tory party complaining that I was representing my constituents.

:30:29.:30:32.

They haven't heard the last of that from me and they haven't got a

:30:33.:30:37.

chance now of getting the franchise for the Greater Anglia railway! I

:30:38.:30:41.

happen to be the chairman of the all-party car safety group and we

:30:42.:30:44.

had an excellent meeting this week and would very much like a review of

:30:45.:30:48.

the guidance to building regulations which had its origin in the last

:30:49.:30:53.

century to be changed. We want the Minister to look very carefully at

:30:54.:31:02.

these regulations, also, we've had a meeting with the Minister of State

:31:03.:31:10.

for schools about new things to be installed in schools, it is crazy

:31:11.:31:13.

that this arrangement has stopped yet I am to mystic that my

:31:14.:31:16.

honourable friend will change that. Thirdly, the members will be aware

:31:17.:31:23.

of arrangement for PCCs and the policing and crime Bill, the

:31:24.:31:25.

all-party parliament regrouped remain concerned about the impact

:31:26.:31:30.

this might have on fire safety while building regulations remain in the

:31:31.:31:34.

DCLG. The Chilcot Report like many other members, I am, as the kinks

:31:35.:31:39.

might have said, tired of waiting for this report! It has just gone on

:31:40.:31:44.

and on. The latest information is that it will be delayed until after

:31:45.:31:49.

the EU referendum. I don't think that is good enough. I think the

:31:50.:31:55.

families deserve better than that. I had the privilege, Madam Deputy

:31:56.:31:57.

Speaker, of introducing a ten minute rule Bill on January 27 this year

:31:58.:32:01.

called the driving instructors registration bill. I am delighted

:32:02.:32:05.

and swiftly went through all its stages in the House of Commons, the

:32:06.:32:10.

amendments that at the Bill Nick it easier for instructors to leave the

:32:11.:32:14.

register without penalty and register again without compromising

:32:15.:32:19.

the standard necessary to ensure safe and cupboard and instruction.

:32:20.:32:22.

I'm delighted to tell the House that and is now going through the

:32:23.:32:26.

relevant stages in the House of Lords and hopefully we will get

:32:27.:32:30.

percent in May. So I say, it is worth pioneering a ten minute rule

:32:31.:32:36.

Bill. As most of us know, south and is the alternative city of culture

:32:37.:32:42.

2017. We are very excited by this. Hull has decided to have four

:32:43.:32:46.

seasonal events, self and will have one every month. And the Secretary

:32:47.:32:51.

of State for sport media and culture visited there recently and saw the

:32:52.:32:55.

wonderful work of metal, with the first digital exhibition in a local

:32:56.:32:59.

park, we've seen the opening of a wonderful new library, with at the

:33:00.:33:02.

opening of the branch of the National Jazz archive, a project

:33:03.:33:08.

headed by the wonderful local jazz musician Digby Fairweather. And also

:33:09.:33:15.

attended recently wonderful consonants by the 70th Orchestra

:33:16.:33:19.

among others so I urge all colleagues in the House, head south

:33:20.:33:22.

to Southend next year and everyone will receive a royal welcome. Madam

:33:23.:33:29.

Deputy Speaker, the Chairman of Ways and Means was the winner of the

:33:30.:33:33.

first responsible pet ownership competition last year. In fact I

:33:34.:33:38.

think he had about a dozen pets, including a you taught us. The

:33:39.:33:44.

second event will take place in July -- including huge tortoise. I hope

:33:45.:33:49.

that as many colleagues as possible will attend this event. Because,

:33:50.:33:55.

Madam Deputy Speaker, pets should never be acquired as a fashion

:33:56.:34:00.

accessory. And readers should do more to make buyers aware of the

:34:01.:34:01.

duty of care due to their pets, neutering. I had the honour of

:34:02.:34:16.

sponsoring Salt awareness week, suppose it ties in with sugar and I

:34:17.:34:20.

was shocked to find out that much of our staple products like bread,

:34:21.:34:26.

conflicts, tinned tomato soup and cheddar cheese all have apparently

:34:27.:34:33.

high levels of salt in them. I think the excellent work done under the

:34:34.:34:37.

Food Standards Agency when the UK lead the world in salt reduction and

:34:38.:34:41.

prevented unnecessary deaths now needs to be reinvigorated by the

:34:42.:34:47.

Department of Health survey can look again at setting up an independent

:34:48.:34:51.

agency to regulate the amount of salt that manufacturers can add to

:34:52.:34:55.

their foods. I recently met with representatives from Safer

:34:56.:35:00.

Medicines. An independent group whose aim is to change the way that

:35:01.:35:03.

medicines are tested so that they are safer for parents. It is an

:35:04.:35:09.

absolutely excellent idea. They wish to end the testing of medicine is an

:35:10.:35:13.

animal is not because of animal cruelty issues necessarily, although

:35:14.:35:18.

this is a serious concern but because animal testing cannot

:35:19.:35:21.

predict safe medicines that humans. Meningitis decently in the

:35:22.:35:25.

constituency are present we have had the tragic death of the head girl of

:35:26.:35:33.

a local school. At just 17. How the family can cope with that tragedy I

:35:34.:35:38.

do not know. Vital work is being carried out by the meningitis

:35:39.:35:43.

research foundation, meningitis Now. I understand 800,000 people signed a

:35:44.:35:47.

petition calling for the meningitis B vaccine to be given to all

:35:48.:35:51.

children at the age of 11 and there will be a debate in this place on

:35:52.:35:57.

April 25. Recently, Madam Deputy Speaker, I held two health summits

:35:58.:36:01.

in Southend bringing all the health providers together. My sense is that

:36:02.:36:06.

they are not necessarily working that well together, and certainly

:36:07.:36:10.

senior management in one two areas needs to do far better than they are

:36:11.:36:14.

doing at the moment so I hope that the health summits will see the

:36:15.:36:18.

quality of patient care and the delivery of health services in

:36:19.:36:24.

Southend improve, just as the local authorities should be working

:36:25.:36:27.

closely with all the health providers, shown by the mid and

:36:28.:36:35.

South Essex success regime. Fuel poverty, I raised this this morning

:36:36.:36:39.

and did a 32nd appearance on Panorama this week because I piloted

:36:40.:36:45.

the warmer homes and energy conservation Bill 15 years ago and

:36:46.:36:49.

it's a disappointment that fuel poverty hasn't been eliminated. I do

:36:50.:36:53.

urge ministers to do all they possibly can to change this

:36:54.:36:57.

situation. Like all members I have some wonderful local companies, an

:36:58.:37:03.

independent company has been trading for almost ten years and now employs

:37:04.:37:08.

25 staff across four branches. By recently visited their newly

:37:09.:37:12.

finished offices which indicates the confidence that they have, and their

:37:13.:37:16.

company has been awarded employer of the year and apprentice of the and I

:37:17.:37:21.

also attended the opening of the new removals business and celebrated

:37:22.:37:25.

with another company that had been in business, for 40 years. So I am

:37:26.:37:28.

delighted that the government included in the budget one measure

:37:29.:37:34.

that was popular and have decided to change the business rate on small

:37:35.:37:38.

outlets. That will make a huge difference. Recently I went with an

:37:39.:37:47.

all-party delegation to see it first hand, not what celebrities saying to

:37:48.:37:53.

it like saying is happening and the Maldives but what is happening. We

:37:54.:37:57.

went everywhere. We saw the present where the former ex-president is

:37:58.:38:01.

being held at the moment. The all-party parliamentary group had a

:38:02.:38:05.

meeting yesterday. A report was published. I do hope the government

:38:06.:38:08.

will look carefully at its findings. This week, and also the all-party

:38:09.:38:15.

alimentary group on the Philippines and I met a wonderful woman who is

:38:16.:38:20.

the founder of the National women's coalition, and she was into mental

:38:21.:38:26.

in helping to respond -- instrumental in helping to respond

:38:27.:38:29.

to the terrible disaster in the Philippines. The government have

:38:30.:38:33.

done an excellent job there and I urge full support for the

:38:34.:38:36.

humanitarian summit coming up in Istanbul. Am delighted that Chase

:38:37.:38:43.

high school, Westcliff high school for girls, they are getting more

:38:44.:38:47.

money. I end with presumably joining with everyone at celebrating the

:38:48.:38:54.

Queen's 90th birthday next year. We had a president from 1997 to 2010,

:38:55.:38:59.

for ten years anyway, and it wasn't a great success. I think the Queen

:39:00.:39:06.

is fantastic, and I congratulate one colleague, whose idea it was to have

:39:07.:39:13.

the project Clean For The Queen, I think she is an example to each and

:39:14.:39:19.

every one of us when she made the broadcast and said, however long her

:39:20.:39:22.

life is, she would do everything she could for her nation. I wish you

:39:23.:39:26.

Madam Deputy Speaker and everyone else very happiest. Mark Williams.

:39:27.:39:37.

Madam Deputy Speaker, firstly, thank you for initiating this debate, the

:39:38.:39:42.

honourable member for Harrow East. This is a general debate if only

:39:43.:39:50.

because we did not hear at Christmas time about the south-west, and from

:39:51.:39:57.

the member from South West, I'm reminded every week as a possible

:39:58.:40:02.

post-office run by his excellent cousin, Miss Janice Pocock. He has

:40:03.:40:07.

spoken on many issues. I will speak on one. An issue of concern to me

:40:08.:40:21.

and one particular constituent of mine, Mr Michael Afonso, and his

:40:22.:40:25.

dealings with the Home Office. It is a personal story and I will use my

:40:26.:40:28.

time to tell his story and the nature of it. He was born in

:40:29.:40:36.

Tanzania, has lived here for 30 years and is married to British

:40:37.:40:42.

natural and his concerns over his British citizenship are not yet

:40:43.:40:45.

resolved. I believe that there are many other cases of British National

:40:46.:40:48.

is with spices from overseas who have sought British citizenship for

:40:49.:40:52.

years and perhaps do not fit the conventional mould of immigration

:40:53.:40:59.

cases. Mr Afonso was born in Tanzania, in 1969, and not long

:41:00.:41:02.

after his birth he was taken in by a lady who raised him as her own and

:41:03.:41:06.

he lived happily with her family the first 15 years of his life in the

:41:07.:41:14.

foothills of Mount Kilimanjaro. In 1984 his biological mother visited

:41:15.:41:18.

their relationship was rekindled and they came to Britain, she was

:41:19.:41:23.

married to a British citizen. Michael remembers arriving in the UK

:41:24.:41:28.

and being questioned by border agency officials at the airport and

:41:29.:41:33.

then moved to Kettering and was established with the family of his

:41:34.:41:37.

biological mother and their new husband although the adoption by the

:41:38.:41:40.

new stepfather seems never to have taken place. Despite the challenges

:41:41.:41:45.

of moving to a new country, he did settle in, but in 1986 problems

:41:46.:41:52.

emerged in the family and through no fault of his own he was taken into

:41:53.:42:01.

care and an offhand denture social services, he said at the time he

:42:02.:42:05.

wanted to return to Tanzania as the lady he saw as his mother, although

:42:06.:42:09.

the court said that because he had never been legally adopted he had to

:42:10.:42:13.

stay in this country, the country of his biological mother. That is, this

:42:14.:42:17.

country, even though he had been removed from her care. He spent some

:42:18.:42:22.

time at a children's home in Kettering and was subsequently sent

:42:23.:42:27.

to foster care. Aged 18 he moved out and spent years living

:42:28.:42:32.

independently, went to college, got an NVQ in painting and decorating

:42:33.:42:35.

and lived in the area for many years. Some years later the lady who

:42:36.:42:39.

had brought him up in Tanzania moved to the UK and settled in Wales,

:42:40.:42:44.

where he moved to, settling in my constituency. By 2008, he had met

:42:45.:42:50.

his future wife Sian, and they set up home together in the Ceredigion

:42:51.:42:55.

constituency. Although troubles arose when they decided to get

:42:56.:43:00.

married. As he had entered the UK as a miner from Tanzania he held no

:43:01.:43:07.

official paperwork himself. He recalled a birth certificate and a

:43:08.:43:10.

Tanzania passport yet while living in Kettering years before moving to

:43:11.:43:16.

Wales, a fire at his flat had destroyed his paperwork including

:43:17.:43:20.

his passport. At the time Sian and Michael Wasley king marriage they

:43:21.:43:25.

were not able to get married without proof of his nationality -- that is

:43:26.:43:28.

when they were seeking marriage. That is when I first got involved in

:43:29.:43:34.

his case. We struggled to find any information from anywhere, any

:43:35.:43:37.

official documentation, about his life. We made inquiries of

:43:38.:43:41.

Nottinghamshire social services to find out if anything had been done

:43:42.:43:46.

about citizenship under his care and to the Tanzania embassy to ask about

:43:47.:43:51.

his passport, we used various Freedom of information requests and

:43:52.:43:53.

yet we hit brick wall after brick wall.

:43:54.:44:01.

There was no information as to the date or where he was sent and that

:44:02.:44:06.

lack of information has subsequently been acknowledged by the Home

:44:07.:44:13.

Office. It seemed as though the aspirations for marriage would not

:44:14.:44:18.

be realised. But the rules did change so in October 2011 the couple

:44:19.:44:22.

were married. All seemed well, life settled down, the couple bought a

:44:23.:44:28.

home, Michael was heavily involved in our community and very much a

:44:29.:44:31.

valued member of the community, now elected community councillor. I

:44:32.:44:37.

would suggest the identikit community activist. He became

:44:38.:44:41.

manager of the local British Red Cross shop. At that point problems

:44:42.:44:51.

emerged as, not unreasonably, he started to get requests from the

:44:52.:44:54.

human resources department to prove his eligibility to work within the

:44:55.:44:58.

United Kingdom. Something he had come across in all the years

:44:59.:45:04.

previously. As a non-British citizen he requires biometric residence

:45:05.:45:07.

card. He contacted the Home Office and was told he would need proof he

:45:08.:45:11.

resided in the UK with no lengthy times away. Of course he hadn't been

:45:12.:45:17.

away because he hadn't a passport. For someone unaware of that

:45:18.:45:20.

stipulation it was very difficult to prove but we had some successes in

:45:21.:45:23.

finding some information from the health board in Northamptonshire and

:45:24.:45:29.

my own health board. And Michael was assiduous in keeping records, P 45

:45:30.:45:37.

and P 60s. He set about applying for a no limit application. They paid

:45:38.:45:41.

the cost to go to the previous service centre in Cardiff, spending

:45:42.:45:48.

?104 on the form and ?400 for the privilege of priority centre

:45:49.:45:51.

meeting. The couple really thought they were on the cusp of securing

:45:52.:45:56.

which is citizenship. Despite the gathering of the documentation they

:45:57.:46:00.

had, including they had at long last notice of care proceedings that he

:46:01.:46:03.

had been removed from his biological mother's care. They were told that

:46:04.:46:08.

because he had no information on self, no proof of entering the

:46:09.:46:11.

country, he was in fact an illegal immigrant. Subsequent events meant

:46:12.:46:18.

that mercifully that accusation was retracted. Despite the fact he

:46:19.:46:22.

resided in this country for over 30 years, despite the fact he paid his

:46:23.:46:27.

taxes and national insurance contributions, was a valued member

:46:28.:46:30.

of the community and married to a British national, he faced that

:46:31.:46:34.

allegation. They met some sympathy from UK BA and when they showed UK

:46:35.:46:38.

beer copies of letters that I'd written on their behalf in 2009 on

:46:39.:46:44.

the issue of marriage, proof the couple had sought to resolve the

:46:45.:46:49.

issue. They were offered an alternative to the full

:46:50.:46:51.

naturalisation process meaning that he would have to reapply for leave

:46:52.:46:57.

to remain every two and a half years, the next one being in 2017,

:46:58.:47:02.

at a cost of 500 years each time until he had ten years worth of

:47:03.:47:07.

visas. After ten years he may be eligible for richer citizenship. But

:47:08.:47:15.

he would be able to receive any recourse to public funds which was

:47:16.:47:20.

confirmed to me in a letter from the Immigration Minister in 2015. So

:47:21.:47:25.

this man has paid national insurance and tax for 30 years, he has been

:47:26.:47:28.

entitled to jobseeker's allowance in the past, he is now denied an

:47:29.:47:33.

automatic right to benefits unless special circumstances emerge. I have

:47:34.:47:39.

to say that he feels incredibly let down by this state of affairs and

:47:40.:47:43.

has taken a serious toll on his health, compounded by the fact that

:47:44.:47:50.

despite being seriously ill and unable to work, his biometric

:47:51.:47:54.

residency card states that he has no automatic recourse to public funds.

:47:55.:47:59.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the Home Office to date has been reluctant to

:48:00.:48:03.

look into this matter in great depth, seeming intent to stick to

:48:04.:48:07.

its original decision that he may have to wait until 2024 to achieve

:48:08.:48:14.

full citizenship. Much of the debate on immigration these days is

:48:15.:48:19.

characterised by people who are wishing and needing to come to this

:48:20.:48:23.

country. We have all worked on many of those cases in our

:48:24.:48:28.

constituencies. This case is about the injustice that has been

:48:29.:48:30.

perpetrated against someone who is already here through no fault of his

:48:31.:48:34.

own, has faced many challenges. Who came here as a minor. And various

:48:35.:48:40.

agencies that were charged with his care could not address the issue of

:48:41.:48:44.

citizenship, and who is now a valued member of our community, now in

:48:45.:48:49.

adulthood he is trying to right a wrong, and aspires to do the right

:48:50.:48:56.

thing. But has faced the real problem in trying to find, trying to

:48:57.:49:01.

trace his own identity. The letter I had from the Immigration Minister

:49:02.:49:05.

said last year "I am sure you will understand that it is not possible

:49:06.:49:10.

to agree to indefinitely to remain for somebody that doesn't hold the

:49:11.:49:16.

necessary documentation" and the minister refused to meet me to

:49:17.:49:19.

discuss the matter further. I do understand what the minister said

:49:20.:49:24.

but I think it represents a great injustice. In this case the lack of

:49:25.:49:27.

documentation has not been the responsibility of my constituents.

:49:28.:49:35.

One last sentence. I just asked the deputy leader of the house to pursue

:49:36.:49:38.

this matter once again with the Home Office, to ask them to look again at

:49:39.:49:43.

this issue, not just the issue of recourse to public funds in the case

:49:44.:49:47.

of illnesses, but his right to remain in the United Kingdom. Thank

:49:48.:49:55.

you Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:49:56.:49:58.

gentleman who outlined the case so typical of many that all of us face,

:49:59.:50:02.

the complexities of the bureaucracy that we have to get through. The

:50:03.:50:08.

right on the gentleman from Leicester East is no longer in his

:50:09.:50:13.

place but he referred to Leicester City and their good fortune this

:50:14.:50:17.

year. As someone who has always had a soft spot for Arsenal amongst the

:50:18.:50:22.

Premier League teams I am somewhat reluctant to praise Leicester, but

:50:23.:50:26.

since Arsenal are almost certainly not going to get the top spot, like

:50:27.:50:31.

most people, I think we want to see Leicester triumph, which gives me an

:50:32.:50:36.

opportunity to talk about the triumphs of Grimsby town. The

:50:37.:50:43.

honourable labia opposite is not in -- the honourable lady opposite.

:50:44.:50:48.

They are in the final of the FA Trophy where yet again they will

:50:49.:50:51.

march down towards what were the twin towers, we hope for victory.

:50:52.:50:59.

And of course Grimsby town do actually play in Cleethorpes. And

:51:00.:51:03.

Cleethorpes is also in the headlines yet again. Like Southend we have

:51:04.:51:09.

even more culture, we are the premier resort of the East Coast.

:51:10.:51:16.

Cleethorpes peer has just been nominated for peer of the year. I

:51:17.:51:21.

think it is worth putting on record our congratulations to Brian Huxford

:51:22.:51:27.

and his team who have just carried out a multi-million pound

:51:28.:51:31.

restoration which has been a real addition to the resort. Also secured

:51:32.:51:38.

some resources from the regional growth fund. So we have all made a

:51:39.:51:43.

contribution to the renewal of Cleethorpes peer. Multi-million

:51:44.:51:50.

pound investment compares with the ?8,000 in costs to construct the

:51:51.:51:59.

peer when it opened in 1873. If I could move onto the main thrust of

:52:00.:52:05.

my contribution which yet again is to do with transport connections

:52:06.:52:08.

Northern Lincolnshire, to highlight a recent report, a joint report

:52:09.:52:15.

between the Department for Transport and transport for the North. It is

:52:16.:52:22.

about a Northern powerhouse. The only thing is it does not seem to

:52:23.:52:27.

referred to Northern Lincolnshire. I have been a great supporter of the

:52:28.:52:32.

northern powerhouse initiative, and I know that ministers have

:52:33.:52:40.

repeatedly emphasised the fact that Northern Lincolnshire and the

:52:41.:52:45.

history are very much part of that. Humber is the energy history. It is

:52:46.:52:49.

particularly important to the whole of the economy. We are reminded time

:52:50.:52:55.

and time again, in order to maximise local economies, you must have good

:52:56.:53:02.

transport connections. Devolution is fine and I have been a great

:53:03.:53:07.

advocate for it, particularly in the recent greater Lincolnshire deal

:53:08.:53:11.

that has been secured. But the problem is that the government may

:53:12.:53:15.

have ideals but as it cascades through the system they are reliant

:53:16.:53:23.

on organisations who may have slightly different priorities to

:53:24.:53:30.

their own. The opening remarks in the foreword to this report jointly

:53:31.:53:38.

signed by the Secretary of State and Richard Leese, the chairman of this

:53:39.:53:40.

partnership says that creating the northern powerhouse of economic

:53:41.:53:45.

growth, driven by a flourishing private sector and supported by

:53:46.:53:49.

innovative local government requires us to harness and unify the people

:53:50.:53:53.

Power of our city regions of the wider North. The North has many

:53:54.:53:58.

centres of excellence increasingly recognised on a global stage. It

:53:59.:54:03.

goes on to list them beginning in Liverpool and ending in the Tees

:54:04.:54:06.

Valley but not a mention of Lincolnshire. Sir David Higgins, who

:54:07.:54:16.

is the chairman when he took up his post as chairman of HS two said

:54:17.:54:20.

there was huge untapped potential for more trade and commerce across

:54:21.:54:24.

the Pennines. What repeatedly we keep hearing about trans-Pennine

:54:25.:54:31.

connections that seemed to emphasise the northern trans-Pennine route

:54:32.:54:35.

when my constituency in Northern Lincolnshire is dependent on the

:54:36.:54:41.

South transport nine route. We are served on the whole reasonably well

:54:42.:54:46.

by trans-Pennine express. The word express is used loosely I think

:54:47.:54:49.

since it takes three and a half hours to get from Cleethorpes to

:54:50.:54:57.

Manchester and it covers the 50 miles from Cleethorpes to Doncaster

:54:58.:55:00.

which the honourable lady and I have to do every week in order to get our

:55:01.:55:04.

connection down to King's Cross. It takes one hour and a quarter. Which,

:55:05.:55:12.

for 2000 and... Where are we? 16 now, aren't we? Transforming city to

:55:13.:55:18.

rail to rail connectivity east to west as well as north to South is

:55:19.:55:25.

one of the main aims of government policy and indeed of the transport

:55:26.:55:31.

for the North. But in order to maximise that, we do need much

:55:32.:55:38.

better rail connections. I have repeatedly been campaigning for

:55:39.:55:42.

direct services between Grimsby, Cleethorpes and London's King's

:55:43.:55:46.

Cross. There is an application that has been with the rail regulator for

:55:47.:55:52.

two years now. And speaking of bureaucracy as I was earlier. Does

:55:53.:55:57.

it really take two years to assess whether this is a viable service? I

:55:58.:56:02.

realise that the problems that face the rail regulator, open access

:56:03.:56:12.

operators such as Alliance rail putting forward this proposal will

:56:13.:56:15.

have to show evidence that they are creating new business rather than

:56:16.:56:18.

taking it away from the main franchise holders. But I do urge the

:56:19.:56:25.

rail regulator to a speedy convolution, even if it is a -1, we

:56:26.:56:29.

can move on and renew the campaign through a different route. Road

:56:30.:56:37.

connections do fare slightly better in this document. And it does

:56:38.:56:42.

acknowledge the importance of access to our ports. And the port in my

:56:43.:56:49.

constituency is, measured by tonnage, the largest in the country.

:56:50.:56:55.

25% of rail freight starts or ends in giving. And yet when it comes to

:56:56.:56:59.

the road connections, we have struggled in as much should as the

:57:00.:57:07.

M1 ATMs about 20 miles from the port. We do urgently need an upgrade

:57:08.:57:18.

of the A180 to motorway standard, and we need to improve the road

:57:19.:57:21.

surface. One of these awful concrete surfaces. Villages two miles away

:57:22.:57:27.

you can sit in their front room and hear the constant rumble of vehicles

:57:28.:57:32.

over the road. That is something I have been campaigning and my

:57:33.:57:35.

predecessor was campaigning on and her predecessor was campaigning

:57:36.:57:38.

about. It really does need urgent attention. The document refers,

:57:39.:57:48.

quite reasonably, to the upgrade of the A160 which provides new access.

:57:49.:57:54.

But I have to tell the house that it is almost complete. It will be

:57:55.:58:00.

complete by August, September time. So it is hardly a vision for the

:58:01.:58:05.

future. If I could pick out one or two other points from the report.

:58:06.:58:17.

Going back to rail. "Many Rail journeys in the North are too slow

:58:18.:58:23.

and take far longer than journeys of equivalent distance elsewhere in the

:58:24.:58:28.

country. Three hours from Cleethorpes to Manchester, as I

:58:29.:58:30.

mentioned, is not exactly a trans-Pennine express. Could I urge

:58:31.:58:36.

my honourable friend on the front bench to pass my comments to the

:58:37.:58:43.

appropriate ministers, and I look forward to a detailed response from

:58:44.:58:44.

them in due course, thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It

:58:45.:58:54.

is a pleasure to follow the honourable gentleman from

:58:55.:58:59.

Cleethorpes. I have sponsored a motion praying that the Social

:59:00.:59:03.

Security benefits stopped rating regulations that affect frozen

:59:04.:59:08.

pensions be annulled. This has been supported by 93 members across eight

:59:09.:59:12.

parties represented in the House including the governing party. It

:59:13.:59:16.

is, Madam Deputy Speaker, a pity that the government have yet agreed

:59:17.:59:21.

to debate this matter and I wonder how money members we need to sign a

:59:22.:59:24.

motion before they will do so. I would contend that the regulations

:59:25.:59:31.

which affect the adjustment to the state pensions is being forced

:59:32.:59:34.

through this House without proper debate. The decision to freeze

:59:35.:59:39.

pensions for a further year comes into effect in April while this

:59:40.:59:44.

House is in recess. I believe the House should have the opportunity to

:59:45.:59:48.

debate this matter, at least 550,000 UK pensioners facing hardship as

:59:49.:59:54.

well as acting to discourage many UK citizens living in the UK to return

:59:55.:59:58.

to their country of origin as many wish to do on retirement. The UK is

:59:59.:00:03.

the only country in the OECD that freezes pensions in this way. There

:00:04.:00:09.

is also Madam Deputy Speaker no consistency as to how overseas

:00:10.:00:13.

British pensioners are treated. Due to a historic bilateral deal

:00:14.:00:17.

pensioners in many countries to get an app rated pension for example in

:00:18.:00:21.

the USA. If you live in the Virgin Islands you get a UK pension and the

:00:22.:00:26.

full rate. In the British Virgin Islands your pension will be frozen.

:00:27.:00:29.

The government argues that pensions are operated to those living in

:00:30.:00:34.

countries where the UK has Social Security agreement. The UK does not

:00:35.:00:38.

need an agreement with any country to pay a pension. The UK does not

:00:39.:00:45.

need any extra money, nothing to do with them if a UK citizen gets a

:00:46.:00:50.

pension or not. How on earth can the government substantiate this? Let me

:00:51.:00:53.

give three examples as to how pensioners are affected. Mr Bonucci

:00:54.:00:59.

nos 73 moved from India to Glasgow in 1960. He worked in the UK for 38

:01:00.:01:05.

years in shipbuilding and steel Manufacturing and the food industry.

:01:06.:01:09.

He also owned a restaurant for six years. He went back to India in 1997

:01:10.:01:16.

and reached retirement age in 2008 when the pension was ?87 30 a week.

:01:17.:01:21.

Having made all the required national insurance contributions if

:01:22.:01:26.

he was still in the UK today you would get ?115.95, 20% more. The

:01:27.:01:31.

decline in his income has often concerned about losing his home. He

:01:32.:01:35.

now feels he might have to move back to the UK. We take young, 78, lives

:01:36.:01:42.

in Peterborough, she retired in 2002 aged 67 after a long career in

:01:43.:01:46.

market research and is community volunteer. The sun moved to

:01:47.:01:50.

Australia sometime ago and has family there. Since being widowed

:01:51.:01:57.

she has wanted to join her son and grandchildren in Australia yet has

:01:58.:02:01.

felt unable to do so due to a frozen pension prospect. As she gets older,

:02:02.:02:06.

she finds her daily life increasingly difficult, as she does

:02:07.:02:10.

not have a family around her. She is, Madam Deputy Speaker, deeply

:02:11.:02:15.

saddened that she cannot be with her family in the later stages of her

:02:16.:02:19.

life. It seems unfair that the government can just stop operating

:02:20.:02:22.

because she says she wants to be with her family. And lastly former

:02:23.:02:28.

college lecturer, now 91, lived and worked in the UK all her life,

:02:29.:02:33.

paying mandatory national insurance contributions throughout this time.

:02:34.:02:38.

In 2002, aged 77 she retired and decided to move to Canada to be with

:02:39.:02:42.

her daughter and grandchildren in Calgary. 14 years on, and, who was

:02:43.:02:48.

an intelligence officer in the women's Navy in the Second World War

:02:49.:02:52.

is struggling to live on a frozen pension of ?75 20 a week. She now

:02:53.:02:57.

feels she will be forced to move back to Britain because a pension

:02:58.:03:01.

will no longer cover daily expenses and she is increasingly reliant on

:03:02.:03:05.

her daughter to get by. Madam Deputy Speaker, this cannot be right, this

:03:06.:03:10.

cannot be justice. As she herself says, it is the small things and the

:03:11.:03:15.

injustices that are getting to me. I value my independences I can't go on

:03:16.:03:20.

living on the breadline and I don't want to inflict this on my family.

:03:21.:03:24.

As well as ever-increasing poverty and feel a sense of stress and shame

:03:25.:03:33.

that is affecting my health. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are also the

:03:34.:03:36.

implications of the forthcoming referendum, 4000 UK pensioners

:03:37.:03:42.

living in EU countries. The question of additional numbers facing the

:03:43.:03:46.

freezing of the pension is worthy of debate and we need answers from the

:03:47.:03:50.

government as to what would happen in the event of Brexit. Will these

:03:51.:03:54.

pensioners also face a freezing of their pension? I hope when we return

:03:55.:04:00.

from recess that the House will have the chance to debate this matter

:04:01.:04:04.

fully giving the government the chance to reflect on this injustice.

:04:05.:04:09.

They ought to withdraw this measure and pay UK pensioners at home and

:04:10.:04:13.

abroad they do state pension with the same adjustment in the interests

:04:14.:04:17.

of fairness and equality and on that note I want to wish you, Madam

:04:18.:04:21.

Deputy Speaker, happy Easter to all in this House and the hope that all

:04:22.:04:25.

our pensioners, wherever they live, can also have a happy Easter and

:04:26.:04:29.

that this injustice can be dealt with. Thank you, it is an honour to

:04:30.:04:37.

follow the honourable gentleman and the others who have spoken and I

:04:38.:04:40.

want to thank the backbench committee for organising this debate

:04:41.:04:44.

and my honourable friends from Harrow and from Southend West on a

:04:45.:04:48.

commitment to this institution which I'm glad to see is reinstated. My

:04:49.:04:53.

thoughts and prayers as we approach Good Friday with all those around

:04:54.:04:59.

the world, from Belgium to Turkey, Syria to Jordan and Iraq and so many

:05:00.:05:03.

other places who are suffering from mankind 's capacity for evil. But at

:05:04.:05:09.

the same time I believe as a Christian that evil will not triumph

:05:10.:05:12.

as a result of the resurrection of Christ on Easter Sunday. Earlier

:05:13.:05:17.

this month, colleagues and I on the international development committee

:05:18.:05:23.

met several hundred people from Nigeria who have been driven from

:05:24.:05:26.

their homes by Boko Haram. They were in a makeshift camp, being helped,

:05:27.:05:34.

not by international organisations but by ordinary Nigerians,

:05:35.:05:36.

Christians and Muslims working together. My honourable friend from

:05:37.:05:42.

Congleton was there beside me. They had set up a school that was a

:05:43.:05:47.

church. They were far from home but they had hoped that they could soon

:05:48.:05:53.

return to their homes. Our visit to Nigeria also showed why our

:05:54.:05:57.

country's commitment to international develop and is so

:05:58.:06:01.

important. Carnot is a city of millions with a long and

:06:02.:06:04.

distinguished history yet it has finished greatly -- suffered greatly

:06:05.:06:10.

from terrorism. Yet its people full of spirit and the UK is with them

:06:11.:06:15.

supporting schools, the training of midwives, economic development and

:06:16.:06:18.

the battle against neglected tropical diseases, malaria and other

:06:19.:06:22.

ills. We met a group of girls and women and asked how things were

:06:23.:06:26.

compared with one year ago. Spontaneously they replied that they

:06:27.:06:29.

were much better, they had a real hope for the future. We visited one

:06:30.:06:34.

primary school, the largest in West Africa, with 13,000 students, and

:06:35.:06:39.

saw committed teachers teaching a strong curriculum developed with the

:06:40.:06:43.

support of the UK. We also went to an Islamic school which with UK help

:06:44.:06:48.

and started teaching maths, English, science and other subjects to girls

:06:49.:06:52.

and boys together. It was delightful to see that one of the songs written

:06:53.:06:56.

on the blackboard for the children to learn was the hokey Cokie! In the

:06:57.:07:01.

midst of a serious matter of educating the next generation there

:07:02.:07:05.

was time for play and song. That brings me to the importance of play

:07:06.:07:11.

and sport in my constituency. Last weekend the stuff and half marathon

:07:12.:07:14.

and fun run had more entrants than ever. The number of people taking

:07:15.:07:20.

part in sport continues to rise. Stafford town FC under the dynamic

:07:21.:07:25.

chairmanship of Gordon Evans has 31 teams and a waiting list and I have

:07:26.:07:29.

the honour of being honorary president. Club will soon start to

:07:30.:07:34.

install a 3G pitch, welcome improvement. Yet elsewhere we face a

:07:35.:07:39.

loss of sports facilities. The sale of the large Staffordshire

:07:40.:07:41.

University campus to an investor from China for educational purposes

:07:42.:07:45.

currently means that the sports centre that used by thousands of my

:07:46.:07:49.

constituents every week we'll close to the public this summer. There are

:07:50.:07:54.

also pictures that may be lost, we've written to the new investor

:07:55.:07:57.

and the University to urge that sport pitches continue to be made

:07:58.:08:01.

available to the public and I would ask the Minister for sport further

:08:02.:08:06.

support that this happens in this Olympic year. More recently we found

:08:07.:08:10.

a pub handing over of the stately home and estate may mean the loss of

:08:11.:08:18.

football and cricket pitches used by several teams from nearby villages

:08:19.:08:22.

and elsewhere. The National Trust wishes to return the field, which is

:08:23.:08:27.

a very small part of the estate, to 18th century parkland. I am a member

:08:28.:08:31.

and a fan of the National Trust and I know its stewardship of the area

:08:32.:08:35.

will be in the best interests of the estate yet our literature must be a

:08:36.:08:40.

living one. After all the West Coast Main line passes through the middle

:08:41.:08:43.

of the estate, constructed with the permission of the then owner of

:08:44.:08:49.

Lichfield was no problem in combining 18th-century capability

:08:50.:08:51.

Brown parkland with 19th-century steam trains and no 21st century

:08:52.:08:56.

pendant he knows. I'm sure that the estate workers would have played

:08:57.:08:59.

football and cricket so why not let those sports, whose history is older

:09:00.:09:06.

than the National Trust's estate, to continue on site, I urge the

:09:07.:09:09.

National Trust to think again. When the Earl of Lichfield in the railway

:09:10.:09:14.

to come through he did so on condition that it should not be

:09:15.:09:19.

visible from his home so cut and cover tunnel was constructed, still

:09:20.:09:23.

there today. The builders will rise and they acted on concerns of local

:09:24.:09:27.

residents, in this case the olive Lichfield. If railway builders of

:09:28.:09:32.

the 19th century could listen to him I am sure that in these more

:09:33.:09:35.

democratic days they can listen to me and my constituents. HS2 passes

:09:36.:09:42.

through several villages and it does so because of the unnecessary lust

:09:43.:09:47.

for ultrahigh speed and hence the requirement for an arrow straight

:09:48.:09:51.

route. If they would can't be changed and I firmly believe that

:09:52.:09:55.

there are alternatives which would meet passenger forecasts, we wish to

:09:56.:09:58.

see considerably more tunnelling to protect them from the worst of the

:09:59.:10:03.

impact, as it did the Earl of Lichfield 200 years ago. Yet in the

:10:04.:10:07.

latest proposal the one tunnel proposed in Hopton has been removed.

:10:08.:10:11.

There's plenty of opportunity for tunnelling in Stafford, the depth of

:10:12.:10:17.

the proposed cutting shows this and our UK tunnelling expertise is

:10:18.:10:21.

world-class. I urge that government to listen to us as their

:10:22.:10:25.

predecessors did the year of Richfield. It's missed a year and a

:10:26.:10:29.

half since Stafford Hospital, Nether County Hospital, came together with

:10:30.:10:33.

the Royals took a hospital as part of the University Hospital of the

:10:34.:10:36.

North and Midlands trust. I want to pay to beat to the staff who helped

:10:37.:10:40.

make such a difficult transition as smooth as possible. It's a tribute

:10:41.:10:45.

to their dedication that we have a hospital that offers high standards

:10:46.:10:50.

of care. For months the egg and the Department has been one of the best

:10:51.:10:53.

performing in the country, regularly achieving until recently the target

:10:54.:11:00.

from patients. It is now under further pressure as the number of

:11:01.:11:07.

people attending as risen to as many being seen today as were previously

:11:08.:11:14.

seen, this shows how important it is to maintain the consultant led A E

:11:15.:11:18.

at the hospital. One of the proposals in 2013 which my

:11:19.:11:22.

constituents argued against was to remove consultant led A E. Thank

:11:23.:11:27.

goodness common sense prevailed. I still maintain as did the Secretary

:11:28.:11:31.

of State that a return to 20 47 emergency opening has to can --

:11:32.:11:39.

24-7. I understand the constraints and the safety concerns but I

:11:40.:11:44.

welcome the fact that the refurbished A E department will be

:11:45.:11:48.

capable of 20/7 opening as I believe that will be essential. We also lost

:11:49.:11:55.

our paediatrics and maternity care. What has replaced them is an

:11:56.:12:00.

emergency children's department and midwife led maternity unit. Although

:12:01.:12:04.

there has been sadness at the loss of the largest services my

:12:05.:12:07.

constituents using the new units have been full of praise for the

:12:08.:12:10.

care that they and their children receive from the stuff. I want to

:12:11.:12:14.

work with the trust gradually to build these services back-up. The

:12:15.:12:19.

investment in the county hospital which has gone on and will continue

:12:20.:12:23.

goes on and I would like to thank my right honourable friend the

:12:24.:12:27.

Secretary of State for his support. We'll have refurbished wards,

:12:28.:12:30.

dialysis and chemotherapy suites, A dialysis and chemotherapy suites, A

:12:31.:12:33.

E, the children's emergency centre, a new MRI scanner, a first

:12:34.:12:40.

the area, is in operation. Will effectively have a new hospital in

:12:41.:12:45.

an old building without the burden of PFI and I think the government

:12:46.:12:48.

for this investment but buildings are nothing without people. We must

:12:49.:12:54.

continue to put the care and safety of patients at the forefront. I pay

:12:55.:13:01.

tribute to the staff for doing just that. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:13:02.:13:03.

businesses are thriving in Stafford with employment at record highs.

:13:04.:13:10.

General electric Kallstrom is building a factory, Higgins and

:13:11.:13:13.

Bostick continue to invest and JCB now has a strong presence after its

:13:14.:13:21.

purchase of broad crime. Mid sized manufacturers show that what would

:13:22.:13:27.

be called the middle strand of business in Germany is alive and

:13:28.:13:29.

well in Stafford. The digital economy is expanding with companies

:13:30.:13:35.

recruiting almost continuously. So much so that we now have the group

:13:36.:13:41.

that meets regularly to see how we can improve the digital economy in

:13:42.:13:47.

Stafford. The advent of another Signal Regiment and the tactical

:13:48.:13:53.

supply wing of the RAF means we have almost 2000 servicemen and women

:13:54.:13:57.

based in the town, they are already making a great contribution to life

:13:58.:14:01.

in Stafford and a tummy they appreciate the warm welcome.

:14:02.:14:04.

Finally, Madam Deputy Speaker want to raise the issue of the road

:14:05.:14:07.

infrastructure and Stafford. We've seen improvements like the four

:14:08.:14:12.

lanes of the M6 from junction ten a but we need the Western access road

:14:13.:14:16.

and we need many other small and large improvements to the roads

:14:17.:14:19.

network in order to provide the growth that we are seeing in

:14:20.:14:23.

Stafford. I would like to wish you Madam Deputy Speaker are very happy

:14:24.:14:24.

Easter. Always a pleasure to follow the

:14:25.:14:33.

honourable member for Stafford, whose sincerity in serving both his

:14:34.:14:39.

constituents and concern for the poorest across the globe,

:14:40.:14:43.

particularly in Africa, is unparalleled. I want to speak in

:14:44.:14:50.

support of middle which in my constituency, and to champion its

:14:51.:14:55.

irrefutable claim for government funding for a bypass. A bypass that

:14:56.:15:06.

has been 20 years in the waiting. Planning permission was first

:15:07.:15:10.

granted two decades ago. One hardly needs to imagine how come if traffic

:15:11.:15:14.

was pressured then, how much more pressured it is now. To travel

:15:15.:15:26.

through Middlewich, not just at peak time, one can justifiably described

:15:27.:15:31.

traffic congestion as chronic. It is the worst in my constituency by far.

:15:32.:15:37.

It has an exceptionally strong community spirit, high level of

:15:38.:15:44.

volunteering, with a host of community events taking place

:15:45.:15:48.

throughout the year. There is an annual festival which attracts up to

:15:49.:15:53.

25,000 people in a week, almost doubling the population of the town.

:15:54.:15:59.

It is the largest event in the country celebrating canals and the

:16:00.:16:01.

narrow boats on them, and the culture surrounding them. These are

:16:02.:16:10.

very much grass-roots events. Others include the festival celebrating the

:16:11.:16:14.

Roman heritage of the town. The good Neighbours scheme. The car and bike

:16:15.:16:19.

show. The national town crier competition. Cider festivals.

:16:20.:16:26.

Heritage open days. And the nationally recognised Middlewich

:16:27.:16:29.

clean team of over 200 residents regularly out keeping the town

:16:30.:16:33.

tightly, of which I consider myself to be a promoter of the alleged -- a

:16:34.:16:45.

privileged member. Middlewich Is an aspirational town. Saint Michaels

:16:46.:16:51.

Church is involved in a ?1.2 million generation scheme which will open up

:16:52.:16:55.

the church for community use. Community leaders across the town

:16:56.:17:01.

recently concluded a new town branding scheme, and Middlewich high

:17:02.:17:03.

school is fortunate to have a visionary headmaster. However, over

:17:04.:17:09.

recent decades, Middlewich has simply not had the investment it

:17:10.:17:13.

deserves from wider authorities to enable it to realise its substantial

:17:14.:17:20.

untapped potential. There's been a huge amount of grassroots energy and

:17:21.:17:23.

commitment from local townspeople. They deserve greater support. There

:17:24.:17:32.

is indeed space for enterprise and development to grow within

:17:33.:17:37.

Middlewich. Middlewich wants growth, it would welcome it, and it once

:17:38.:17:40.

development. It would welcome house and development. It is essential

:17:41.:17:46.

that we see greater investment for Middlewich and that is why I have

:17:47.:17:50.

campaigned for it since my election in 2010 and why I am now very

:17:51.:17:55.

pleased to say to the house that the potential for Middlewich to make a

:17:56.:17:59.

substantial contribution to local and regional growth has now been

:18:00.:18:03.

recognised more widely. I am delighted that not only the

:18:04.:18:06.

townsfolk of Middlewich but also Cheshire East Council are announcing

:18:07.:18:12.

Middlewich as a key town for development with potential for

:18:13.:18:17.

growth. This is important because as the government's transport for the

:18:18.:18:23.

North report produced this month, "It is important to ensure economic

:18:24.:18:26.

benefits are spread across the North to deliver the vision of the

:18:27.:18:30.

northern powerhouse. The development opportunities are better connected

:18:31.:18:34.

to contribute to and benefit from key towns." If this aspiration is to

:18:35.:18:44.

be realised, it is essential that Middlewich receives greater

:18:45.:18:50.

investment. And that, importantly, means that we need the Middlewich

:18:51.:18:58.

Eastern bypass. If I can just unpack why this is so important. It is a

:18:59.:19:12.

major highway scheme and it would involve supporting over 2000 new

:19:13.:19:17.

homes in and around Middlewich. It would make a considerable

:19:18.:19:23.

contribution to the Cheshire East local plan. It would be a boost to

:19:24.:19:30.

existing businesses who employ 4500 people in Middlewich, and according

:19:31.:19:34.

to figures from Cheshire East, create a further 6500 jobs. That is

:19:35.:19:41.

why it is so important the government consider supporting this

:19:42.:19:45.

major highway scheme by allocating funding from the ?475 million local

:19:46.:19:53.

majors fund. Local areas are invited to make further bids by the

:19:54.:19:55.

Chancellor in his budget statement last week. I am recording now a

:19:56.:20:01.

request on behalf of Middlewich for funding from that fund with the

:20:02.:20:08.

support of Cheshire East Council. This is a fund for large local

:20:09.:20:15.

transport schemes. That applies to this bypass. It is a ?30 million

:20:16.:20:24.

project and it is a high priority. In addition to solving serious

:20:25.:20:27.

congestion issues which this bypass would help, locally it would also

:20:28.:20:33.

solve many regional transport problems. Cheshire East Council

:20:34.:20:38.

state that Middlewich is the worst pinch point on the A54 corridor. A

:20:39.:20:48.

bypass would help relieve this and tackle a number of road safety

:20:49.:20:50.

issues in the town which have been the cause of great local concern for

:20:51.:20:56.

many years. It would provide the bypass scheme involves, as I think

:20:57.:21:02.

it should, local improvements, it would address improving the

:21:03.:21:08.

challenges on low in Street, the directory, Saint Michael 's way.

:21:09.:21:13.

Improvements to these are vital to protect pedestrian safety and

:21:14.:21:17.

improve pedestrian access to the town centre. A bypass would provide

:21:18.:21:24.

better routes for heavy goods vehicle, and a better link to the

:21:25.:21:30.

motorway under construction. The very considerable investment being

:21:31.:21:33.

made in that to relieve congestion there, there is no point in that if

:21:34.:21:39.

only for vehicles to move up the M6 and find they are stranded,

:21:40.:21:43.

stationery along the road as they come off the M6. It would also

:21:44.:21:51.

improve access to a chest to when it opens. -- improvement of access to

:21:52.:22:06.

HS2. The work involved will involve additional construction traffic. And

:22:07.:22:10.

the improvement of this bypass and the construction of this bypass is

:22:11.:22:16.

essential if the region as a whole, not to mention the town, is going to

:22:17.:22:21.

be blighted by that construction traffic. Even more widely, if I can

:22:22.:22:29.

turn to the fact that this week the right honourable member, the

:22:30.:22:35.

Minister for Housing, attended the International conference in Cannes

:22:36.:22:43.

and launched the Northern Gateway development prospectus. This sets

:22:44.:22:49.

out ambitious proposals for Southeast Cheshire with a station at

:22:50.:22:56.

Crewe. These proposals are exciting. They will develop the local economy.

:22:57.:23:06.

This prospectus, the plans developed, have the potential to

:23:07.:23:11.

unlock major growth and investment opportunities which could build

:23:12.:23:17.

100,000 homes by 2040, by creating a growth zone at the connecting

:23:18.:23:22.

gateway to the northern powerhouse and the Midlands engine. Situated as

:23:23.:23:29.

it is directly between the two. Middlewich is so important because

:23:30.:23:33.

Middlewich sits very much as a focal point within this development area.

:23:34.:23:37.

Whilst the proposals are exciting and will deliver significant

:23:38.:23:43.

benefits to the economy, I understand from the letter that one

:23:44.:23:46.

of the consequences of the amount of traffic travelling through

:23:47.:23:49.

Middlewich, a town that already experiences such high levels of

:23:50.:23:54.

congestion at such peak times, that this traffic could rise by up to 90%

:23:55.:24:03.

if these plans are developed. The LEP is concerned that its growth

:24:04.:24:11.

achievements will not happen without the bypass. Could I ask ministers to

:24:12.:24:20.

look at how to, with some joined up thinking, improve the connectivity

:24:21.:24:26.

for the region by funding the Middlewich Eastern bypass. Thank you

:24:27.:24:33.

Madam Deputy Speaker. A pleasure to be called to join in this debate.

:24:34.:24:39.

The sugar tax has been mentioned by the Right Honourable member for

:24:40.:24:43.

Leicester East. Alongside the wonderful football team. Burning off

:24:44.:24:48.

the energy of sugar very important. I will come onto that. It is a

:24:49.:24:55.

concern in my constituency, diabetes, we have one of the second

:24:56.:25:00.

largest amount of amputees in Eastleigh as a result of diabetes

:25:01.:25:04.

impact. Many of my residents are affected by concerns of potentially

:25:05.:25:10.

two new fast food places and a car showroom being placed on the old

:25:11.:25:15.

council buildings and court areas. I do ask the local council to think

:25:16.:25:19.

again when we are in need of such an important amount of homes in a site,

:25:20.:25:24.

whether a planning application so close to two secondary schools is

:25:25.:25:29.

very sensible. But we are a fit area in Eastleigh. It was the 32nd

:25:30.:25:33.

running of the Eastleigh ten K over the weekend. Sadly a toe injury put

:25:34.:25:40.

paid to my running this year. And I do not joke, I did run last year,

:25:41.:25:45.

but it was much warmer. 2800 runners took part. It was a record field. I

:25:46.:25:52.

enjoyed giving out the medals to the little people doing their two K. I

:25:53.:26:05.

was really very impressed. It was once again covered by the excellent

:26:06.:26:12.

Eastleigh news. Steve and his team are local and loving it, they go to

:26:13.:26:18.

absolutely everything, and a small gang of locally collected

:26:19.:26:20.

journalists gives Eastleigh and opportunity and the people there to

:26:21.:26:25.

say what they feel, particularly in covering the story regarding the old

:26:26.:26:30.

council buildings. It has been an extraordinary few months for the

:26:31.:26:34.

people of Eastleigh after the election. I am truly enjoying

:26:35.:26:42.

holding the Liberal Democrat council and former councillors and members

:26:43.:26:46.

of Parliament to account, and making the important points about local

:26:47.:26:52.

infrastructure. As we heard from fellow MPs, our roads are in dire

:26:53.:26:56.

need of investment. And a focus on this is absolutely vital. Meet

:26:57.:27:01.

anyone from my constituency and you will hear about never-ending traffic

:27:02.:27:06.

queues which blight the area. I am delighted to support the airport

:27:07.:27:10.

pollution work that we are trying to bring forward to this house. The

:27:11.:27:16.

area right outside the council building is an area of air pollution

:27:17.:27:23.

concern. I will be backing the air quality bill. We have heard about

:27:24.:27:27.

the local majors fund today and that is very welcome for areas such as

:27:28.:27:31.

mine, where we have a much long-awaited link road. All MPs

:27:32.:27:36.

could probably argue which bypass or link road we have been waiting for

:27:37.:27:43.

the longest, this one was over 25 years, so if anybody wants to raise

:27:44.:27:48.

that, we will go with it. But it was very important that it was mentioned

:27:49.:27:51.

in the budget and it will unlock more prime land for economic growth,

:27:52.:28:00.

boost the area, and continue to help succeed the successes recently seen

:28:01.:28:05.

by Southampton Airport. I was delighted to visit the airport for

:28:06.:28:13.

the new route to court. It is one of four new routes being brought to the

:28:14.:28:21.

south coast. I am delighted to see that this new Road, alongside other

:28:22.:28:25.

manifesto promises, will come to fruition. We will see it delivered

:28:26.:28:29.

through this conservative majority government. During some visits this

:28:30.:28:36.

year locally to industries I spoke about earlier this week and

:28:37.:28:40.

aggregates, we heard about the importance of jobs, infrastructure

:28:41.:28:43.

and dealing with the air pollution, and making sure that we get the

:28:44.:28:46.

Conservative action we need on this because it will lead to more local

:28:47.:28:51.

jobs and better prosperity and two very different industries mentioned

:28:52.:28:57.

to me how important this road will be to them. So the inclusion in this

:28:58.:29:02.

budget is a great boost to Eastleigh and I'm very power to help to bring

:29:03.:29:05.

this forward to the community and achieve this promise.

:29:06.:29:43.

Neighbourhood plan much needed where there are frankly Nan in my

:29:44.:29:51.

constituency. It was reported that the bypass would be shelved for

:29:52.:29:56.

another 20 years so I am delighted that conservatives are working

:29:57.:30:00.

together with the county council which looks as if it will be able to

:30:01.:30:04.

start work soon and it shows that when the people of Eastleigh vote

:30:05.:30:08.

blue they get the investment and hopefully the jobs they need in the

:30:09.:30:12.

area. Now we have heard a lot in the last week in the budget about the

:30:13.:30:18.

next generation of jobs and prosperity, keyed to young people. I

:30:19.:30:24.

met Ricky from a plumbing company, Paul from a local aluminium foundry

:30:25.:30:31.

and Ashley who does gasworks maintenance and James, from a

:30:32.:30:35.

plumbing and heating company, at National apprenticeship week at the

:30:36.:30:39.

college where they are so successful that bringing forward so many

:30:40.:30:47.

apprentices. That working with small businesses to bring forward really

:30:48.:30:52.

key apprenticeships especially in the foundry area yet one of the

:30:53.:30:56.

problems that blights our lives even when it comes to this matter is good

:30:57.:31:03.

old health and safety rules. I take the opportunity to raise the degree

:31:04.:31:06.

want to get our people work ready and give them that work experience

:31:07.:31:12.

we must make sure that 16 and 17-year-olds get the chance to start

:31:13.:31:17.

out in a new career. And also the employers I met were very keen to

:31:18.:31:21.

see older apprentices coming into new opportunities were given the

:31:22.:31:26.

best chances. Over the last few months there have been serious

:31:27.:31:30.

challenges in my constituency, Saint Luke 's surgery is hugely important

:31:31.:31:34.

to the community and is in crisis and I thank the Right Honourable

:31:35.:31:39.

Alistair Burt MP, the Minister of State for community and social care,

:31:40.:31:42.

he has just met with me and has another meeting coming up to see how

:31:43.:31:48.

we can help with the GPs problem in my constituency, eight weeks we are

:31:49.:31:51.

waiting for regular appointments and this clearly isn't good enough,

:31:52.:31:55.

understaffed and worried, wanting to provide a better service. Well

:31:56.:32:03.

resourced and well staffed GPs are important in every community and I'm

:32:04.:32:06.

certainly fighting for St Luke's. I would like to thank colleagues and

:32:07.:32:13.

others across this House for support, and indeed, Mr Speaker, for

:32:14.:32:17.

the help on International women's Day. We had a great turnout of girls

:32:18.:32:22.

from across the country who came to their parliament, 73 of them, for a

:32:23.:32:28.

day of awareness raising awareness of inequality and motivating

:32:29.:32:32.

youngsters to get campaigning and I am delighted to see the amount of

:32:33.:32:36.

issues raised in this house. Going back locally, talk about the lack of

:32:37.:32:40.

a local plan, it blights my local residents. Thank the Stoke

:32:41.:32:47.

residences as the Asian in Bishop Stokoe are trying to support their

:32:48.:32:51.

environment and keep it rich and diverse and make sure there is no

:32:52.:32:56.

destruction where there is needless destruction by ignoring the

:32:57.:33:00.

sightseeing Eastleigh. It really is time for the government to allow us

:33:01.:33:05.

to step in and force plans where people are not choosing the

:33:06.:33:10.

legislation support residents's ideas. This Easter will not be

:33:11.:33:14.

quiet, there's a fashion show with Eastleigh Lions, I am helping the

:33:15.:33:22.

coaches who are trying to find bigger premises, enjoying a meeting

:33:23.:33:26.

with the race and equality Forum, heading to age concern Eastleigh,

:33:27.:33:31.

going to see the carers at fired care, touring the Swan Centre and

:33:32.:33:35.

working with the women's register and there are surgeries where I will

:33:36.:33:41.

be hearing from my residents or are concerned about the sewage issues

:33:42.:33:45.

locally, the flooding and the impact on local services by lack of a local

:33:46.:33:52.

plan. It has been a delight to take part in this important adjournment

:33:53.:33:58.

debate before Easter. Mr Speaker may wish you and all the House restful

:33:59.:34:03.

Easter and I promise to get many more Eastleigh campaigns into my

:34:04.:34:14.

question is when I return! Melanie Onn. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It has

:34:15.:34:20.

come a little unexpectedly! I want to thank the deputy leader for the

:34:21.:34:24.

guidance and support to me in my first few months in this role. She

:34:25.:34:29.

has assisted in the discussions we have had in such an usual matters is

:34:30.:34:34.

the arrest of members, the members benevolent funds, vellum and other

:34:35.:34:38.

more fake operations of this place, and there I mention Evo, and perhaps

:34:39.:34:46.

I should move on from that! She really does take a role in very good

:34:47.:34:54.

grace. In fact earlier, herself, me, and the frontbencher and are taking

:34:55.:35:00.

the same role for the SNP had a photograph taken to commemorate our

:35:01.:35:05.

all women's business questions and turned it the three Graces. It has

:35:06.:35:11.

been a fantastic and wide and varied debate this afternoon, with many

:35:12.:35:18.

members coming to champion their constituencies and it has been a

:35:19.:35:22.

real treat, the honourable member for Harrow East particularly, his

:35:23.:35:29.

references to the Stanmore station left, and the delay, I am sure he

:35:30.:35:34.

will continue assiduously in his campaign to secure that, I am

:35:35.:35:37.

addressed it in his 39 steps reference and whether indeed the

:35:38.:35:43.

book is about that station. It is interesting talking about the

:35:44.:35:46.

investment in Crossrail, if I like that to my area, my constituency,

:35:47.:35:53.

the reference from the honourable member from Cleethorpes regarding

:35:54.:35:57.

the lack of mention of any future plans around transport in the South

:35:58.:36:02.

of the Humber area I would say to the honourable member for Harrow

:36:03.:36:07.

East that his charge of 75p, perhaps he should move to north-east

:36:08.:36:11.

Lincolnshire with a charge is ?30. This equitable life debate, I joined

:36:12.:36:17.

in with that particularly to support my constituents who lost out on

:36:18.:36:24.

equitable life scandal. And if that reflects the gentleman's view of the

:36:25.:36:31.

Waspy women who through no fault of their own are losing out financially

:36:32.:36:37.

and in quality of life, there are similar parallels. The honourable

:36:38.:36:41.

member fullest used, there have been similar contributions about potholes

:36:42.:36:46.

and bypass roads, link roads and the like, interesting to see him make a

:36:47.:36:51.

plea to his own MP in London for assistance in improving the roads in

:36:52.:36:59.

that area, most strikingly, he mentions the one-year anniversary of

:37:00.:37:05.

the conflict in the Yemen with 8800 civilians affected so terribly in

:37:06.:37:14.

those atrocities. It reaffirms why contributions to our International

:37:15.:37:17.

development fund is so important when 3 million children are not in

:37:18.:37:22.

school and she referred to his Tiffin cup, which I think is well

:37:23.:37:26.

known across the house and I will be speaking to the proprietors of the

:37:27.:37:31.

spice of life and the masala Indian and seeking their support. He

:37:32.:37:35.

mentions Leicester football club. I would like to say that Leicester

:37:36.:37:39.

Tigers undertake training for young people in my constituency who are

:37:40.:37:46.

doing rugby training in community classes and the Leicester Tigers

:37:47.:37:51.

were becoming slightly closer to my constituency and market raisin to

:37:52.:37:56.

Lincolnshire over the summer. My son I believe will be joining the

:37:57.:38:03.

Leicester Tigers in that activity. The member for South and West is

:38:04.:38:10.

certainly standing up for his constituents of National Express,

:38:11.:38:12.

think we'll all agree that there should never be an accusation that

:38:13.:38:16.

members should not stand up for their constituents in this place.

:38:17.:38:20.

His constituents will expect nothing less. Interesting that he's trying

:38:21.:38:26.

to take the city of culture and become the alternative city of

:38:27.:38:29.

culture! You may not be aware that I've been trying to bring the city

:38:30.:38:33.

of culture slightly south of the Humber, and bring it into Grimsby

:38:34.:38:38.

and Cleethorpes, and get some of the benefits of Hull's city of culture

:38:39.:38:42.

year next year and the citizens of Hull haven't been impressed but am

:38:43.:38:48.

happy to pass on his details and perhaps they will contact you rather

:38:49.:38:50.

more frequently than they are contacting me! Interesting about the

:38:51.:38:59.

concerns you are raising that, I wonder if some of the issues around

:39:00.:39:04.

the fragmentation of the NHS and increasing privatisation within

:39:05.:39:08.

health services, where that's not happening perhaps so quickly,

:39:09.:39:13.

perhaps those developments would not be necessary although I recognise

:39:14.:39:16.

his support for the world to monetary and Summit and the Queen 's

:39:17.:39:23.

90th birthday, the keep Britain tidy activity, the Clean For The Queen

:39:24.:39:28.

and one of my own councillors in our ward ardently took part in that

:39:29.:39:32.

event to support keeping Britain tidy. The comments made by the

:39:33.:39:43.

Honourable member for Kennedy Dian highlight -- Ceredigion -- highlight

:39:44.:39:47.

the bureaucratic tangles in this country where it could be as simple,

:39:48.:39:52.

I really do hope that the deputy leader will pass on the message to

:39:53.:39:59.

the Minister, I confess that I believe the minister would wish to

:40:00.:40:02.

assist in that matter more thoroughly than has currently

:40:03.:40:09.

happened. The honourable member for Cleethorpes, congratulations on

:40:10.:40:17.

winning Pier of the Year and for mentioning Grimsby town coming to

:40:18.:40:21.

Wembley in the FA took the cup. We've got a strong contingent of

:40:22.:40:26.

away fans. I'm sure Wembley will be delighted to see an influx of

:40:27.:40:30.

Grimsby residents coming to London to support their team, will

:40:31.:40:34.

hopefully we will win and not be subjected to the terrors of the

:40:35.:40:38.

penalty shoot out which do not serve us well. He is quite right to raise

:40:39.:40:42.

the issue of transport. I know that he's reprised his role on the

:40:43.:40:46.

transport select committee and he is a considerable enthusiast of the

:40:47.:40:51.

railways, and particularly for our area, and has been an assiduous

:40:52.:40:55.

campaigner on that front and I personally raise the issue of the

:40:56.:40:59.

transport and the lack of consideration for South of the

:41:00.:41:03.

Humber with the chief executive at this weeks Yorkshire and Humber all

:41:04.:41:07.

party Parliamentary group, and I thoroughly support his suggestion

:41:08.:41:11.

that there should be a direct train from Cleethorpes in Grimsby town to

:41:12.:41:19.

King's Cross. SmackDown to King's Cross. And the state of the road,

:41:20.:41:22.

you can't hear the local radio over the rumble of the road so we really

:41:23.:41:28.

need to sort that out. The member who discussed the very important

:41:29.:41:34.

issue of freezing pensions, and the operating for UK citizens living

:41:35.:41:37.

overseas, and raising the concern about the impact of Brexit, were

:41:38.:41:43.

that to happen, I'll will support his call for a debate on that

:41:44.:41:48.

matter. The honourable member for staff and, as concerns over the

:41:49.:41:56.

potential loss of sporting facilities are of concern and I wish

:41:57.:42:01.

is campaign to retain those important facilities very well for

:42:02.:42:06.

those constituents who are clearly very active. And recognises tributes

:42:07.:42:12.

to local NHS staff as well. The honourable member full Congleton

:42:13.:42:15.

raises the important issue of the middle which eastern bypass. Clearly

:42:16.:42:23.

a keen advocate for that constituency. Which demonstrates

:42:24.:42:31.

your intimate knowledge of your constituency.

:42:32.:42:37.

LAUGHTER I am terribly sorry, absolutely, I

:42:38.:42:47.

met hers, not yours, you'll have no idea about Congleton roads, I'm

:42:48.:42:48.

sure! LAUGHTER

:42:49.:42:58.

I do apologise! And the Honourable member for Eastleigh celebrating the

:42:59.:43:04.

32nd running of the Eastleigh ten Kate, I'm sorry that you did not get

:43:05.:43:10.

to participate. And also yourself, Mr Speaker! I would like to

:43:11.:43:17.

highlight the Great Grimsby ten K run on July 31 at which local

:43:18.:43:21.

companies and charities will take part. I am sure she recognises that

:43:22.:43:35.

in a similar way has support for International women's Day, an

:43:36.:43:38.

impressive number of the constituents who attended this place

:43:39.:43:41.

on International women's Day, and I would like to take the opportunity

:43:42.:43:45.

which I failed to do this morning to wish everybody a very happy Easter.

:43:46.:43:47.

Thank you. Thank you Mr Speaker, it is a

:43:48.:43:58.

pleasure to be at the dispatch box for the second time today in order

:43:59.:44:04.

to try to help backbenchers from across all parties in their quests

:44:05.:44:08.

to help their constituents. I would like to particularly commend the

:44:09.:44:13.

honourable member whose birthday it is today, and it shows how dedicated

:44:14.:44:20.

he is that he is here. And my friends for Southend West and

:44:21.:44:23.

Congleton will be celebrating their birthdays over the weekend. I would

:44:24.:44:29.

like to welcome the return of the pre-recess adjournment break. I'm

:44:30.:44:36.

delighted that people can come and raise issues at this moment. It was

:44:37.:44:40.

started by my friend from Harrow East. He is one of several

:44:41.:44:46.

apprentices to date to Mike Honourable friend for Southwest in

:44:47.:44:49.

trying to cover as many topics as he can in his time. Turning to the lift

:44:50.:44:54.

at Stanmore station, he will recognise that this is a matter for

:44:55.:44:58.

the Mayor of London, is Honourable friend for Uxbridge, and TEFL. I do

:44:59.:45:04.

understand the member has raised this concern many times, and I

:45:05.:45:07.

suggest he grabs the mail while he is in the division lobby when we

:45:08.:45:14.

vote on the Finance Bill. I recognise the station's ramp for

:45:15.:45:17.

wheelchair users technically meets the requirements for step free

:45:18.:45:21.

access but I recognise the challenges about it being steeped.

:45:22.:45:26.

He is right to praise the redevelopment of the National

:45:27.:45:27.

Orthopaedic Hospital which does great work. I understand the trust

:45:28.:45:33.

board would approve the version and it will be submitted to the

:45:34.:45:37.

improvement review. It is a priority project for the department and NHS

:45:38.:45:42.

improvement. I was pleased that he paid tribute to the rebuilding of

:45:43.:45:46.

several schools. Good to see the government investing in the future

:45:47.:45:49.

of children in Harrow. In particular referring to the first Hindu school

:45:50.:45:53.

which I know that parents will welcome. He talked about the blue

:45:54.:46:00.

badge scheme. It is fair to say the criteria for accessing a blue badge

:46:01.:46:07.

has been significantly tightened, so it is not specifically based on a

:46:08.:46:11.

kind of disability, but nevertheless people with the appropriate

:46:12.:46:16.

disabilities who cannot walk a certain distance, if they're walking

:46:17.:46:18.

is sufficiently affected, should be deemed eligible, and I'm sure that

:46:19.:46:23.

he will work with his constituents to achieve that. In terms of the

:46:24.:46:32.

tobacco tax, eight typical packet already has over ?5 in duty. In 2014

:46:33.:46:39.

it was announced RPI plus 2% will continue until the end of

:46:40.:46:43.

Parliament. I also know that the Treasury is taking action to reduce

:46:44.:46:49.

the gap in duty between hand-rolled tobacco and cigarettes, and I'm sure

:46:50.:46:55.

he will welcome both those measures. As it is shown that having high duty

:46:56.:46:59.

rates is a proven way to reducing smoking prevalence and helps

:47:00.:47:04.

objective is to be met on protecting public health. Turning to the

:47:05.:47:09.

honourable gentleman from Leicester East who raised in particular the

:47:10.:47:14.

issue of the Yemen. The Yemen certainly matters to this country.

:47:15.:47:22.

Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula are exploiting the situation and the

:47:23.:47:27.

government is not prepared to stand back and let that continue, but

:47:28.:47:31.

believes a political solution is the best way to bring long-term

:47:32.:47:35.

stability to Yemen. There are encouraging the ports of cooperation

:47:36.:47:38.

between the Saudis and the fees which has agreed a cessation of

:47:39.:47:42.

hostilities on the border, improved humanitarian access along with

:47:43.:47:47.

prison exchanges and mine clearance. Last week the Saudi Arabian led

:47:48.:47:50.

coalition said they intend to scale back military operations in Yemen.

:47:51.:47:54.

In that vein I applaud the work and support the work of the UN special

:47:55.:48:00.

envoy for Yemen, who says he is ready to launch political talks in

:48:01.:48:03.

the coming weeks. The UK effort should be focused on supporting the

:48:04.:48:09.

UN and encouraging parties to engage constructively and implement

:48:10.:48:15.

commitments made. He also refers to the availability of products in this

:48:16.:48:18.

place and I suspect he may want to speak to the Administration

:48:19.:48:22.

committee. I am sure there are a lot of cheers for the momentous season

:48:23.:48:26.

it has been so far for the Leicester City foxes. I am sure they will be a

:48:27.:48:31.

popular winner of the Premier League if they are able to continue their

:48:32.:48:35.

great success, doing much better than my own team of Liverpool. He

:48:36.:48:43.

refers to a specific situation concerning diabetes programmes

:48:44.:48:45.

within Leicester. I am not aware of the details but I am sure he was

:48:46.:48:49.

capable, and as he has shown in the past, of picking that up with the

:48:50.:48:55.

Health Secretary. I can convert your on the Tiffin cup. It is the first

:48:56.:48:59.

year I will be making a nomination and I hope he will be successful.

:49:00.:49:03.

Moving on to that order forced that is my honourable friend for Southend

:49:04.:49:12.

West. He is a class act that certain members are starting to learn from.

:49:13.:49:17.

He finished his contribution with a tribute to Her Majesty The Queen in

:49:18.:49:23.

the year of her 90th birthday. I can assure him there will be ample time

:49:24.:49:27.

in this house to pay tribute in June course. In terms of C to see the

:49:28.:49:36.

government accepts that timetable changes have had a big impact on

:49:37.:49:44.

passengers and their journeys. My honourable friend is seeking to

:49:45.:49:50.

undertake a review of the stopping pattern on the Internet and

:49:51.:50:06.

services. We will work closely with C2C to achieve a balance. In regards

:50:07.:50:13.

to fire safety, Sir David wrote to the honourable gentleman recently

:50:14.:50:15.

explaining that he is considering a number of the issues raised about

:50:16.:50:19.

governing regulations and I'm pleased that my honourable friend

:50:20.:50:23.

has had the chance to speak with my right honourable friend the member

:50:24.:50:28.

for Bognor Regis regarding automatic fire sprinklers in schools. I am

:50:29.:50:35.

aware of his concerns connecting the potential change of responsibilities

:50:36.:50:40.

involving Police and Crime Panel is this but I want him to be assured

:50:41.:50:43.

that those matters will be considered carefully if any changes

:50:44.:50:51.

are made. In regards to Chilcott, we have all been waiting a long time

:50:52.:50:54.

and I hope it will not be too much longer. Sir John Chilcott, and my

:50:55.:50:59.

right honourable friend the Prime Minister exchange letters last year.

:51:00.:51:03.

He will know that my right honourable friend is exceptionally

:51:04.:51:06.

frustrated at how long this has taken to do, but it is an

:51:07.:51:09.

independent report and the government cannot direct when the

:51:10.:51:17.

report will be published. I want to congratulate him on piloting a

:51:18.:51:19.

private members bill successfully through this house. It just shows

:51:20.:51:24.

that a good, sensible piece of legislation, not trying to achieve

:51:25.:51:27.

too much but doing something that matters, in this case a deregulatory

:51:28.:51:32.

measure, can get the support of this house quite successfully. I wish him

:51:33.:51:36.

well in the Lords and hopefully it will work. In terms of the

:51:37.:51:42.

alternative city of culture, as has been alluded to, I think wins the

:51:43.:51:48.

trying to become the fringe though. I think it is stretching a little

:51:49.:51:54.

far to get to Southend. Knowing my honourable friend and the people of

:51:55.:51:56.

Southend, they will not let anything stand in their way and it sounds

:51:57.:52:00.

like a really exciting programme which I may well take advantage of

:52:01.:52:04.

next year. I'm hoping to go to Southend in the near future to

:52:05.:52:08.

campaign for my friend Alex Bright, who is running in the south Church

:52:09.:52:13.

Ward. He is a friend but he works for me as my secretary and I am sure

:52:14.:52:18.

he will do well. My honourable friend has a long history of

:52:19.:52:21.

championing animal welfare. He will be aware that there are laws in

:52:22.:52:25.

place enforcement agencies can use. However the government accepts that

:52:26.:52:31.

the legislation needs updating. There has been a consultation, to

:52:32.:52:35.

which we received about 1500 responses, and I think they will

:52:36.:52:38.

have to be analysed before decisions are made but it is not just about

:52:39.:52:42.

changing the law, it is about working with key stakeholders to

:52:43.:52:46.

change understandings. He tackled a number of issues to do with health.

:52:47.:52:52.

Medicine and health care products regulatory agency is the competence

:52:53.:52:57.

authority. And whilst governments may wish to encourage particular

:52:58.:53:00.

thoughts along some lines, they are independent, and need to come up

:53:01.:53:03.

with what is appropriate in terms of evidence. In terms of salt, the data

:53:04.:53:09.

published by Public Health England showed that adult salt intake in

:53:10.:53:13.

England has decreased by over 10% in the last decade. My honourable

:53:14.:53:18.

friend is right that the UK is leading the world in salt reduction

:53:19.:53:21.

and I will work with industry on voluntary reductions has cut salt

:53:22.:53:28.

levels in everyday products like ketchup and baked beans. In terms of

:53:29.:53:31.

meningitis my thoughts are with the families of Mike honourable friend's

:53:32.:53:37.

constituent. He refers to the petition and I know that the matter

:53:38.:53:42.

will be debated further in April. In terms of fuel poverty, this is a

:53:43.:53:45.

really important matter and I recognise that he piloted a private

:53:46.:53:49.

members bill onto the statute book when he was a member in opposition.

:53:50.:53:53.

The government is serious about helping vulnerable people heat their

:53:54.:53:56.

homes. The department is putting in measures needed requiring us to

:53:57.:54:04.

bring as many homes as practically possible to the standard by 2030. He

:54:05.:54:09.

is right to praise what happened in the budget on business rates, and in

:54:10.:54:14.

regards to the Maldives, the UK is not alone in the concerns about the

:54:15.:54:21.

sustained decline of democracy in the Maldives but I am sure he will

:54:22.:54:26.

make his point to the Minister. The upcoming humanitarian summit will

:54:27.:54:29.

provide an opportunity for the global community to come together to

:54:30.:54:34.

serve those left behind by poverty, and my right honourable friend as

:54:35.:54:39.

placed support for women and girls at the heart of his work. As for the

:54:40.:54:51.

honourable member, he does raise what is a challenging case. I am not

:54:52.:54:55.

going to pretend that I can give him any assurances here today, but I

:54:56.:54:59.

will refer back to the Home Secretary to see if there is

:55:00.:55:02.

anything more that could be done. In terms of my honourable friend from

:55:03.:55:07.

Cleethorpes, the honourable lady from Grimsby, I am sure they will be

:55:08.:55:12.

going down Wembley Way together. He refers to the greater Lincolnshire

:55:13.:55:16.

deal, I think this is an opportunity to make some of the changes which he

:55:17.:55:21.

refers to. I recognise his points about rail connectivity, and he was

:55:22.:55:24.

generous in accepting that work is going to be undertaken helping the

:55:25.:55:31.

area, but I will pass as comments to the DFT and ask them to reply. In

:55:32.:55:38.

terms of the honourable gentleman referring to EDM 1325, I'm not aware

:55:39.:55:44.

that the usual channels have yet been activated for a debate so he

:55:45.:55:49.

may wish to take that up with his honourable friend whose birthday is

:55:50.:55:55.

also today. UK state pensions are payable worldwide and are rated

:55:56.:55:59.

abroad where we have a legal requirement to do so, in countries

:56:00.:56:04.

where there is a reciprocal agreement. This has been a

:56:05.:56:08.

long-standing policy for about 70 years and the government has no

:56:09.:56:11.

plans to change the rules. I honourable friend from Stafford

:56:12.:56:16.

started with a strong appropriation of his Christian faith. My

:56:17.:56:20.

colleagues on the international developer and committee had a

:56:21.:56:25.

successful visit to Nigeria and are committed to drawing 1 million more

:56:26.:56:30.

children into education by 2020. He should recognise that sport England

:56:31.:56:38.

is a statutory committee on playing fields and he may wish to approach

:56:39.:56:43.

that. When compared to the green tunnel, the cutting would reduce the

:56:44.:56:50.

height of the structure. My honourable friend was exceptionally

:56:51.:56:55.

eloquent in her proposals for an eastern bypass around Middlewich. It

:56:56.:57:00.

is good to hear that she is working with her council and the LEP and she

:57:01.:57:04.

made a compelling case in her bid for the local makers fund,

:57:05.:57:10.

recognising the local access to crew. She is due to meet my

:57:11.:57:14.

honourable friend. Tim Southee but I strongly recommend she meets her

:57:15.:57:18.

honourable friend for Scarborough. I hope she succeeds but I will be

:57:19.:57:23.

putting the case forward. My honourable friend for the easterly

:57:24.:57:36.

covered a range of topics. She is an excellent MP, making that

:57:37.:57:39.

difference. She talks about apprenticeships and I will pass her

:57:40.:57:42.

comments onto the appropriate minister. I know that she has

:57:43.:57:46.

aurally met my right honourable friend about GPs. It is right that

:57:47.:57:52.

she gets credit. I just want to say thank you to the honourable lady for

:57:53.:57:56.

Great Grimsby and it has been a pleasure working with her as well. I

:57:57.:58:00.

wish the civil servants thanks for helping and I wish everybody happy

:58:01.:58:07.

Easter. The question is that this house has considered matters to be

:58:08.:58:10.

raised before a forthcoming adjournment. Just before I asked to

:58:11.:58:21.

adjourned.

:58:22.:58:22.

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