Browse content similar to 04/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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. Urgent question. And maimed. Thank you, Mr Speaker.. I would like to | :00:00. | :00:15. | |
ask the secretary of state to make a statement on the reforms to Dublin | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
agreement on the effects of asylum. The Minister at the Home Office. | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning the European Commission published | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
its proposals for reform of the Dublin protocol and emergency | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
relocation in response to the migration crisis in the | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
Mediterranean. These proposals were first announced under the EU Turkey | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
deal and agreement is critical to finding a solution to Europe's | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
asylum systems ahead of the summer. The Government will now scrutinise | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
these proposals carefully. As the House will be aware, the UK has an | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
opt in to any EU proposals on justice and home affairs issues. It | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
is not bound to sign the proposals the commission has published today | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
and we will have three months to consider whether or not to do so. | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
The proposals will be laid before Parliament and an explanatory | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
memorandum will be provided. Scrutiny committees in both houses | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
will look at this in detail and Parliament will be able to consider | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
these proposals in the usual way. The Government strongly supports the | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
principles behind the Dublin regulation. We believe that an | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
asylum claim made in the EU should be dealt with by the member state | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
most responsible for the applicant 's presence in the EU. This provides | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
certainty for the applicant and protect other member states asylum | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
systems from abuse. But our starting position is clear. We will not opt | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
in any legislative proposal that replaces the existing Dublin | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
principles with a redistribution mechanism. And we do not support | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
relocation. Those in need of protection should claim asylum at | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
the first save country they reach. We support the existing Dublin | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
regulations and the principles underpinning them. In this context | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
it is worth noting that the commission themselves have been very | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
clear today that, should we not opt revised Dublin regulations, the | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
existing regulations will continue to apply between the UK and other | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
member states. This is at least part a direct result of a government's | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
engagement with the commission and other member states. As such, there | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
is no risk that we would lose our existing powers to return people to | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
other EU member states. Powers that we have used nearly 12,000 times | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
since 2005. Where an individual is responsibility of another member | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
state under EU law, the Government will seek to return them under the | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
Dublin regulations and we will continue to do so. We have been | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
engaged in regular constructive conversations with our European | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
counterparts and the European Commission and will participate | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
fully in the negotiations of this draft proposal at European level as | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
these proposals are negotiated. I commend this statement to the House. | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank him for his statement, and am somewhat | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
concerned it seem as if all we know what this beloved light in reality | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
given that we have got a very big referendum coming up between that | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
time. Will he say, he said debris, it should not be undermined, and | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
it ensures a printable EU countries can deport refugees to their first | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
port of entry as he's just reconfirmed, and the Secretary of | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
State recently restated her views that amending the Dublin regulation | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
is unnecessary and risks undermining a vital tool in managing asylum | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
claims within the EU. Despite her views, the EU commission is pressing | :04:02. | :04:03. | |
ahead with reforms and that's despite many countries expressing | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
their extreme disquiet. Under the existing laws written ostensibly has | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
the right to deport asylum seekers to their first port of entry however | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
in practice, that means he did give a figure but it's only 1% of asylum | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
seekers from the UK each year relocated to the first port of entry | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
according to Eurostat. Does he accept this very low figure of only | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
1% of relocation is being accurate and if so, can you explain why the | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
UK is performing so badly and the current regulations? In practice, | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
the Dublin agreement is far from perfect and the EU was desperate to | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
find ways of evening out the numbers of asylum seekers but not rocking | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
the British boats before the referendum and even the European | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
Commission has acknowledged the current system doesn't work. Germany | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
is all but abandoned it and Greece is not abiding by it apparently | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
since 2011. The commission recently stated that even when member states | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
accept transfer requests, only a quarter of such cases reported in | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
effective transfers and after that there were frequent cases of | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
secondary movements transfer Mink back member state. Does he accept | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
even the low number of relocation is 1%, we are obliged to readmit those | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
individuals under the process? Does he have any figures to inform the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
House how many are actually relocated back to the UK? | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
Given the low numbers currently sent back under the system, does the | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
minister then still believe that this is a good deal for Britain? | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Despite the haggling and horse trading going on behind closed doors | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
as we speak, the Secretary of State, has the Secretary of State secured | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
permanent and favourable opt out and any form of quota sharing that | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
cannot be overruled at any point in the future by other member | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
countries? It is important to know this. These proposals are part of a | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
package to manage the surge in migrants and refugees flooding into | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
Europe. The commission is currently in the process of revising measures | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
in the Dublin regular gin, namely of imposing a financial penalty of | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
250,000 euros on every refugee not taken by a country if another member | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
state's experiences of sudden influx. How will this new quota | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
penalty system proposals it with the current Dublin proposal the minister | :06:29. | :06:34. | |
says he wishes to stay in? Finally, has the minister secured a permanent | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
and favourable opt out from any form of penalty payment that might be | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
negotiated in the future for nonacceptance of quotas? And would | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
that not be overruled at any point in the future by other member | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
countries? Order. Before the minister responds, two points should | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
be made. First of all, I say in all courtesy and gently to the | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
honourable lady that she modestly exceeded her time allocation. I am | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
sure that was inadvertent and will not be repeated. Secondly, equally | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
courteously, I say to the minister, with reference to his final | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
statement commending his statement to the House, the honourable | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
gentleman did not make a statement to the House. He could have | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
volunteered one. The reason the honourable gentleman is in the | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
chamber is that I've acquired a minister to attend the chamber to | :07:25. | :07:30. | |
answer the urgent question from the honourable lady. It may seem a fine | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
distinction to those attending our proceedings, but it is an important | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
one. The honourable gentleman is here involuntarily and not | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
involuntarily! I hope the position is now clear. He doesn't need to be | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
deported, we want him to answer the question! | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am always the servant of the House in this | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
regard. On the various points my honourable friend has raised, I can | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
say that the UK does have a clear opt in arrangement in relation to | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
justice and home affairs matters. Therefore, we do retain that ability | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
to decide which measures that fall within the Justice and home affairs | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
matters we decide to opt into, as I explained in my opening comments. In | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
relation to the benefit, yes, we do see significant benefit from the | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
existing Dublin regulations. We have sought to remove nearly 12,000 | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
people from the UK to other EU member states over the last ten | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
years using that process. She highlights the issue of whether in | :08:45. | :08:53. | |
some way, we may subsequently be required to be participants of the | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
new arrangements. I would want her to a statement that was published | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
within the European Commission's press release, which says that the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
UK and Ireland are not required, but instead determined themselves the | :09:06. | :09:07. | |
extent to which they want to participate in these measures, in | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
accordance with the relevant protocol is attached to the | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
treaties. If they do not opt in, the current laws, as they operate today, | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
will continue to apply to them in line with the treaties. That is | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
important in terms of the clarification she was seeking. | :09:25. | :09:31. | |
Clearly, because of the opt in, we have that protection in relation to | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
matters as to whether we decide to opt in or not. That provides | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
protection on the quota penalty she referred to. So Keir Starmer. Let us | :09:38. | :09:50. | |
be clear from the start. Through our opt out, Britain would not be | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
required to take part in any asylum relocation system, nor would we be | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
required to pay any financial levy to avoid it. But it is also keen | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
that -- clear that we have a keen national interest and moral | :10:05. | :10:06. | |
responsibility to ensure effective systems are in place to tackle the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
worst humanitarian crisis in a decade in Europe, a crisis on a | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
scale that clearly needs a concerted, EU wide response. It is | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
clear that the Dublin arrangements are not working on the ground. They | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
are not able to cope with the numbers and to process the claims | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
that need to be processed. We in Labour have been calling for a | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
reconsideration of how the Dublin arrangements work in practice for | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
many months, precisely on these grounds. The government, as ever, | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
has been slow and reluctant to act, characterised by the involuntary | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
appearance here today. Labour is also clear that the key Dublin | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
principles preventing first country states from refusing to process | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
asylum seekers and allowing return to first country are important | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
intervals. So we welcome the government's update on this, but | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
what proposals have they made to the commission on reform? Mr Speaker, | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
there is also the wider question of unaccompanied children in Europe | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
today, the chair of the Kindertransport Association of | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
Jewish refugees called on the Prime Minister to do more to help what he | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
called the most vulnerable victims of the Syrian conflict. We cannot | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
continue to sit on our hands. We can't continue with the repetition | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
of the repugnant rhetoric that these children in Europe are safe. They | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
are not. There is a groundswell of support. When will the Government | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
finally listen? If there is to be a U-turn on this issue, the sooner it | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
happens, the better. I gain from the honourable gentleman's comments that | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
he did not hear what the Prime Minister said at prime ministers | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
question time a few moments ago in respect of how we are in discussions | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
with Save The Children and the UNHCR in terms of what assistance can be | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
provided to those already registered in Europe before the EU Turkey deal | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
came into force and the discussions we will have with local authorities. | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
I reject the point he makes about the government's slowness to react | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
in relation to the Dublin begin nations. That is why we have sent | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
experts to France and other European countries to support that process, | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
to see that there is that practical implementation on the ground. That | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
is bearing fruit and seeing a speeding up of the process. The | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
honourable gentleman equally highlights issues around the Dublin | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
regulation itself. The government believes that the long-standing | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
principle is at the heart of the Dublin system are the right ones, | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
and it would be a major error to tear them up and replace them with | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
something completely different. Dublin may not be operating as it | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
should, but that does not mean it principles are fundamentally flawed. | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
That is the approach this government will take in terms of further | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
negotiation. No honourable members in this House will have seen the | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
proposals in detail, because they have only just been published. | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
Therefore, it is right to reflect on them in detail and continue | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
discussions to see that we have a reformed Dublin that benefits the | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
UK, whilst recognising the protections we have to maintain the | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
existing Dublin arrangements. I congratulate my honourable friend, | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
the member for St Albans, for not only putting forward a question, but | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
also for the manner in which she conducted the analysis. She is | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
right, of course. The European scrutiny committee looking at this | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
matter and will be talking about it this afternoon. Would the minister | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
be good enough to give us an assurance that if we so decide, | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
which I feel we will, that there should be a debate on the floor of | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
the House, that he would encourage that? And would he also make sure | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
this matter is not left hanging around for as long as three month | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
's? We need an urgent and quick answer to these questions. The | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
three-month time period is the period we have as the UK to consider | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
whether to opt into measures at the outset, as he will know. That is one | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
of the protections we have in terms of our relationship with the EU | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
under Justice and home affairs matters. The commission has its | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
papers this morning. I am sure that we'll see scrutiny in detail by the | :14:38. | :14:45. | |
European scrutiny committee. And the government will provide information | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
and support that process to see that this measure is properly scrutinised | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
by this house. There is not any delay on the government's part in | :14:55. | :15:03. | |
relation to the three months. The Dublin rules were not fit for | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
purpose even before the current crisis in Europe developed. That | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
crisis has pushed the system way beyond breaking point. Even a child | :15:12. | :15:14. | |
could understand that front line countries such as Greece and Italy | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
cannot be expected to deal alone with all the asylum seekers who | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
arrived there. This proposed system of financial penalties would be an | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
improvement, but it is a distant second best to the proper sharing of | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
responsibility throughout the European Union. Can the minister | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
tell us, if the UK are not prepared to sign up to the new EU asylum | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
system, exactly what steps the government will take in order for | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
the UK to do its bit for those already in Europe, particularly the | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
child refugees? One I was in Calais with other SNP MPs at Easter, we met | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
many refugees with family in the UK, and we met men who had acted as | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
interpreters for the UK Armed Forces, including men who had been | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
at Camp Bastion at the same time as Prince Harry and when the Prime | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
Minister visited. The government keeps assuring us that they are | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
taking action to speed up processes. But will the minister now provide us | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
with the figures on processing times, which we have repeatedly | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
asked for, so that we can have some evidence that these requests are | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
being more speedily with? Secondly and more fundamentally, there is a | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
problem on the French side of things being handled slowly. Many refugees | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
in Calais and Dunkirk are afraid to claim asylum in France because of | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
the very bad experiences they have had their already, including being | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
tear-gassed by French authorities. Will the British government consider | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
building a route to bypass the French system and allow direct | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
claims to the UK, based on family ties? In terms of the time it is | :16:46. | :16:56. | |
taking to process the relevant requests under the existing Dublin | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
arrangements, they are being processed in a matter of weeks, as I | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
have indicated to the honourable lady previously. And it is through | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
having those direct contacts between the officials on both sides that are | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
able to make speedy decisions to work to see that those who have | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
those links to the UK can be reunited. That is a principle of | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
this government believes in strongly. Equally, the work we are | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
going through additional funding and investment in other parts of Europe | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
is intended to support that. She highlights the issue over the | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
actions of the French government. I would say that the French government | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
have a specific NGO that they have engaged to work with those in the | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
camps to be able to identify, to see that they are protected speedily. We | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
support that work and will continue to support the French government and | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
play our part in seeing that those who have that connection to the UK | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
are established, identified and come to the UK quickly. Mr Kenneth | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
Clarke. With the minister agree with me that the migrant crisis we face | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
is our part of a crisis that affects every European Union member state | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
and requires a European Union solution? It is a complete absurdity | :18:18. | :18:25. | |
first promulgated by Ukip that somehow, if we left the EU, these | :18:26. | :18:32. | |
people would no longer be a problem. As the government has played a full | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
part in the limited progress so far in closing the of Europe and making | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
arrangement with Turkey for the return of asylum seekers, does he | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
accept that we are quite entitled legally to insist on the Dublin | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
Convention, and of course, we must exercise our opt out when it is in | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
our interests, but actually, we have to have regards to the problems of | :18:56. | :18:57. | |
Greece, Italy and other countries who have not encouraged these vast | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
numbers to come to them, and we will need the cooperation of those | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
governments if eventually, we are to restore the situation to order in | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
every member state including the United Kingdom? | :19:12. | :19:12. | |
My right honourable friend is absolutely right in this being an EU | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
wide problem and it is something we will need to continue to address at | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
that level and somehow, by the UK leaving the EU on the referendum, | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
that will suddenly make the migration crisis go away, that is | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
clearly not the case. He talks about Turkey and Italy, sorry, Greece and | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
Italy, and he will equally know the Turkey deal is absolutely intended | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
to support those issues on the front line and how we are sending out | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
experts from next week around 75, to support the front line activity in | :19:48. | :19:56. | |
Greece. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In his heart, the Minister for Public | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
accepts everything the Honourable lady for Saint Alden 's has said | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
today. The Dublin agreement is in crisis, not because of the UK, but | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
because other countries in the EU are flouting the way in which it | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
operates, the Home Affairs Select Committee, we've seen for ourselves, | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
when the visited Greece and Italy, and what other partners need to do | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
is to fulfil their obligations under Dublin, deal with these matters in | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
their country, so people do not end up coming to Calais seeking to come | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
over to the UK. To do this, maybe just 10% of the money that is gone | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
to Turkey, the EU Turkey deal with the most generous in history, we | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
need to support Greece and Italy, these other countries need our | :20:46. | :20:54. | |
support. He will know, as I just indicated, the practical support we | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
are providing to the European Asylum support office, to those front line | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
member states who have seen significant numbers arriving on | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
their shores and, in terms of the funding that we have provided, ?70 | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
million of funding to the response, that obviously is a significant | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
contribution to support the activities that are needed to | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
support vulnerable migrants there. Here's right in saying we need to | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
continue to work with Greece, Italy, precisely what this Government will | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
continue to do, recognising the pressures those governments are | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
under. The EU documents about the EU Turkey agreement and the creation of | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
the Visa free area for most of the EU and Turkey made very clear that | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
part of this policy has to be strengthening the Turkish frontier | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
with Syria, Iraq and Iran and the document quite remarkably, strangely | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
says it's going to help build walls and fences and ditches over what is | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
an extremely long border. Can he tell us how many miles of these | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
impediments to migration EU has in mind and what the cost might be? The | :22:04. | :22:11. | |
clear focus is on seeing refugees do not make the journeys across the | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
Mediterranean Sea to the shores of Europe, which is consistent with the | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
approach this Government has taken and why we have clearly pledged the | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
?2.3 billion we have two the humanitarian crisis and how that is | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
giving that sense of hope and opportunity to those that are there | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
through work, education. That is the right approach to ensure that we are | :22:36. | :22:37. | |
giving that sense of why people should not be making those journeys, | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
and how the EU Turkey deal supports that. I know the Minister is very | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
proud of his pudding but he seems to agree that in principle, the refugee | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
crisis is a European crisis which requires collective action. If we | :22:54. | :23:02. | |
were having the broken instead of the Dublin regulations, what exactly | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
would they be? I'm very grateful to the right honourable gentleman for | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
his frame of the question in that way. It underlines the need for each | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
EU member state to play a part, which is precisely what the UK is | :23:17. | :23:22. | |
doing. We are providing expert support, funding, and very | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
significant aspect in relation to the issue of resettlement, and the | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
new children at risk resettlement scheme. We think the basic | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
principles of Dublin are right, they need to be upheld, it is how we can | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
improve the practical aspects of it. The Dublin Convention requires the | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
collection of biometric data from migrants if it is to work optimally, | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
a process which understandably the more savvy migrant declines to | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
cooperate with, probably with the connivance of the Italian and Greek | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
officials. What can be done to strengthen that part of the Dublin | :24:01. | :24:08. | |
arrangement? This is about practical implementation. The 75 experts we | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
are sending out to Greece, other European countries are doing the | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
same, to see the practical measure, taking fingerprints, is upheld the | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
front line and that practical support I think will make the | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
difference. Does the Minister accept that the regulations should be a | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
flaw in what we do and not a ceiling? With that in mind, will you | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
look again at the treatment of those who claim asylum now who previously | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
helped the Armed Forces in Afghanistan as interpreters, | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
because, frankly, if they had treated us as we now treat them, | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
then the lives of many, many of our service men would have been put at | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
risk or lost. I will look very carefully at what my right | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
honourable friend has said in relation to those who have supported | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
our British Armed Forces in Afghanistan. The manner in which | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
they are analysed and treated within our asylum system, I know this is an | :25:09. | :25:16. | |
issue many members have raised and I can assure him it is something I'm | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
giving close attention to. Would the Minister agree with me that EU | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
reform in this area should take into account a member state it was effort | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
to resettle refugees from third countries outside the EU and fund | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
those countries? With the UK having delivered 1,000,000,008 to stop | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
powerless journeys at sea, would be right for the EU to endorse our | :25:39. | :25:46. | |
approach to reduce migration? My right honourable friend is right in | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
the steps were taken in the scheme. Our focus remains on providing those | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
safe Routes to the most vulnerable in the region, the UK has made an | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
important contribution through its efforts and that, I think, plays a | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
part in the overall work across the EU in providing that stability and | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
preventing people from making those journeys. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
Minister will know that there's a huge amount of concern in this | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
country, especially mothers unaccompanied children in the camps | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
in Calais and it's welcome to hear them today agreeing that given what | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
he's saying, the problems we've seen, through the current Dublin | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
arrangements, to give us some numbers, how many young people is | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
the actually think the UK will now be able to offer sanctuary as a | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
result of the decision made today? The Prime Minister said earlier on | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
that we will be discussing with local authorities, also discussions | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
with the UN HCR save the children and others. It's right we look at it | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
in that way to assess the issues carefully and therefore come to the | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
right conclusion. Does my right honourable friend agree that with | :27:00. | :27:01. | |
respect to this proposal, the UK has a double protection of being outside | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
the automatic opt in but also being outside Schengen so when asylum | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
seekers choose not to claim asylum at the first port of call, they | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
can't travel the no border zone into the UK? I think we have the best of | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
both worlds being outside the borders areas of Schengen, the | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
protection against us, the ability for us to uphold our own border and | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
do the necessary checks as one of having those legal rights through | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
the optimums and the enhanced mechanisms that the Prime Minister | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
achieved through his new negotiations that will add to those | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
negotiations. I think it would be help fall if you said you would | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
accept the amendments but many of these opt outs are designed to | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
control Britain's borders so he will be aware of good journalism in the | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
Telegraph which says the semaphore system went down for a few days last | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
summer and yesterday his Permanent Secretary would not say, admitted | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
this happened many times, would not say when and for how long. Don't we | :28:11. | :28:19. | |
deserve to know this information and will you publish it? We provide | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
clear protection to the UK border, multilayered approach we take and | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
ink it includes the primary control points which we ensure have 100% | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
checks, something the last Labour Government did not do. It is that | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
focus on our board and security this Government will continue to | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
maintain. -- border. My right honourable friend will know from the | :28:48. | :28:50. | |
conference at which both he and I spoke last week on the migrant | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
crisis of the anger and despair of the Hungarian Government at what is | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
now being proposed by the European Union. Can explain to me what our | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
Government is doing to criticise all enforced against Germany their | :29:07. | :29:08. | |
unilateral rejection of the current regulations? As I have indicated to | :29:09. | :29:19. | |
the House, the Government has the opposite out in relation to certain | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
measures and so there are aspects in relation to Schengen we are not | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
party to. We are not part of the Schengen area. It's a matter for | :29:31. | :29:32. | |
those bound by those regulations to enforce the commission the | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
compliance and therefore it's a matter for them and not the UK. I | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
hope the Minister will find a way to provide more support to | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
unaccompanied children. Compassion demands it. Cody outline how the UK | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
front line support that is going to be provided to Greece and Italy will | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
help ensure a unaccompanied children already in the European Union don't | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
go missing? I think he makes an important point of the issue of | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
things like trafficking, exploitation, it is why Kevin | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
Highlands, the anti-slavery commissioner, will travel to Greece | :30:11. | :30:15. | |
and Italy shortly. Therefore, the experts we are sending out will | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
include those with knowledge and understanding of these issues in | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
relation to children to seek to provide greater assurance over the | :30:24. | :30:31. | |
very matters he has identified. The Government has recently demonstrated | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
an axiom of our EU membership is our common European citizenship which | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
implies the common treatment are people right across the EU. Will he | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
not concede that sooner or later if the public vote to remain in the EU, | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
he will not long be able to resist in the Council of ministers a | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
pressure to concede our opt out and join whatever the arrangements are | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
in a process of bargaining away in order to achieve whatever the | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
Government's objectives happened to be? No, I don't, Mr Speaker. I think | :30:59. | :31:06. | |
the UK has very clearly got protections, indeed the way we opted | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
out of a number of pre-existing measures. It shows the clear | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
approach of this Government in upholding what is in the best | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
interests of the UK and I think I have been very explicit this | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
afternoon in highlighting that being part of relocation mechanism, it's | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
not in the interests of the UK. Thank you, Mr Speaker.. Given the | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
Minister has said the asylum regime may well change after the EU | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
referendum, will he concede that there is no status quo on the ballot | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
paper in the EU referendum just as those who voted a stay in the common | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
market in 1975 did not get the status quo? Given that the parties | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
opposite seemed to be working on the basis that other EU countries are | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
incapable of providing decent and humane refuge to asylum seekers, | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
does he agree we should be in part of a political year who treats | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
asylum seekers properly? I think in terms of the status quo, I would say | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
to my right honourable friend the Commissioner has been very explicit | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
about the Dublin regulations to say we can continue to uphold and | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
operate the existing arrangements if we do not decide to opt into the new | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
measures that have been published today and I think that is quite | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
important in terms of at that assurance and clearly, we will work | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
with other EU partners to support them to ensure that those who are | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
claiming asylum in their shores are able to do so effectively, which is | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
why our expert support is precisely in tune with that. Part of the time | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
announced today means it proposal European countries who refuse to | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
give shelter to refugees could be forced to pay into the cough is of | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
countries that do take them. Whilst we have a temporary opt out on this | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
at present point in time, could the Minister state that this is | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
absolutely guaranteed opt out that we will not consider reneging on and | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
equally, would you publish the legal advice given the legal basis for | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
this proposal? I say to my honourable friend others is not some | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
temporary opt out I'm referring to. It is the basic principles of the | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
treaty in relation to our ability to opt into measures in respect of | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
Justice and home affairs matters. That is the issue I know that he | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
will understand and recognise and that is the basis upon which I have | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
made the point before the House this afternoon. | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
Mr Peter Bone. Mr Speaker knows the problem of human trafficking. One of | :33:41. | :33:51. | |
the problems with continental Europe is the open borders. Whatever the | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
other advantages are, it is a human trafficker's tartare. These new | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
measures will add to that. What we actually want is more checking to | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
stop this evil crime of trafficking. I pay tribute to the work of my | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
honourable friend, who has done so much in relation to highlighting | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
this issue and has assisted in the reforms that have taken place. We | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
need to step up our response to organised crime. That is why we will | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
continue to work with European partners to highlight these issues | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
and see that children are protected and do not fall into the hands of | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
the traffickers, which is why the work on the front line and the | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
further inputs we have from Kevin Highlands will assist us not just as | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
the UK, but also in supporting other EU states as well. Order. I have to | :34:39. | :34:45. | |
notify the House in accordance with the royal assent act of 1967 that | :34:46. | :34:51. | |
Her Majesty has signified her royal assent to the following acts. | :34:52. | :35:01. | |
Enterprise act 2016. Northern Ireland Stormont agreement and | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
implementation plan act 2016. Bank of England and financial services | :35:08. | :35:16. | |
act 2016. Trade union act 2016. Transport for London act 2016. | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
Order. We come now to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move that | :35:25. | :35:32. | |
leave be given to a bill to make provision about the disclosure, | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
consideration and approval of proposals for onshore electricity | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
power stations for 50 megawatts or less to require the application of | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
engineering construction industry terms of conditions and certain | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
circumstances and to require sector specific collective national | :35:49. | :35:51. | |
workforce agreements in other circumstances and for connected | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
purposes. Any solid biomass or combined heat and power plant | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
producing 50 megawatts or below, indeed, any power project breaching | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
50 megawatts or below, does not come below the terms of national planning | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
and consent. Ostensibly, this sounds fine as it supposedly gives more | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
control to local people about developments in their locality. | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
Projects with a generating capacity of 50 megawatts or less are | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
considered part of the town and country planning act of 1990 and can | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
be dealt therefore with by local authorities. This is where your | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
problems begin if you are part of the construction industry. Civil | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
engineering demands loyalty and hard graft, where workers often work long | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
hours under arduous and sometimes dangerous conditions to produce the | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
end product. But all those great virtues can for nothing when the | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
dice are loaded against you. From Teesside to South Yorkshire, | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
Scotland to Wales, a recent epidemic of deliberate subterfuge has been | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
used to evade industry standards for terms and conditions of construction | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
workers in the power generation sector. Luckily, I am fellow | :36:54. | :37:01. | |
Teesside MPs have been trying to unravel a complex knot of potential | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
expectation and undercutting. We have been working alongside the GMB | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
and Unite union of both regional and national level. The sleight of hand | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
employed and the deliberate use of opaque contractual arrangements via | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
umbrella companies which have seen workers pay their own national | :37:18. | :37:19. | |
insurance twice is universally known. But this together with the | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
potential undercutting and expectation of migrant workers and | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
this only frustrates an area and its people which has seen massive | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
provision in light of closures at exercise steel -- SSI steel to | :37:30. | :37:38. | |
mention one of the sites undergoing closure. This frustration has | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
culminated in a year-long escalation of unrest in the construction | :37:42. | :37:49. | |
industry, with mass protests at one site over a waste product being | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
built in to side with a predominantly non-UK labour force. | :37:54. | :38:03. | |
Any one constructing a power blood must be aware that if it is under 50 | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
megawatts, it will have achieved any content from a local authority, and | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
that consent will almost certainly not carry the necessary requirements | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
for workers on the construction project, which would also instil a | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
level playing field. An assumption up until now has been that those | :38:22. | :38:28. | |
terms would carry over. Sadly, that has not been the case. Due to | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
unscrupulous practices by certain construction campaigns, the lack of | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
a voice in this growing market has led many who have been shut out of | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
employment to take on board tactics which are borne out of pure | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
frustration, which can then develop into demonstrator languor. | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
Construction workers in large numbers on the warden noted protests | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
outside the new biomass power station in Rotherham, South | :38:51. | :38:52. | |
Yorkshire, Port Talbot and Dunbar on but the 1st of March and 7th of | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
April in 2015 were in support of GMB, unite members who blockaded | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
work on these sites on those days. The rate should be higher, but the | :39:05. | :39:20. | |
migrant workforce has been paid just nine to 13 euros an hour, | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
approximately ?7 to ?10. With above average levels of unemployment at | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
the current time in the industry, it is no wonder those workers are angry | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
with the expectation of migrant labour at the expense of local | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
implement. How can the developers and employers get away with this? | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
Take this example in Rotherham. The local council gave planning consent | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
in 2011, but sites producing less than 50 megawatts have no need to | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
adhere to regulations. The partnerships who bought the site | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
then sold to son at a big profit to a Danish company. They then | :39:55. | :40:08. | |
contacted Babcock and Wilcox, known as BWV. Subsequently, BWV | :40:09. | :40:17. | |
subcontracted the construction of the boiler to a Croatian firm, who | :40:18. | :40:25. | |
tendered the lowest bid on Croatian economic wage levels. The correction | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
firm has very bad form. It is the same company that GMB Unite court | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
underpaying its largely migrant workforce last year on a power | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
station in Yorkshire. Because that job came under the independent audit | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
facility. The unions were able to force the company to repay every | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
euro it owed. However, they later found out that when they got back to | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
Croatia, the workers and that their wages were retaken under duress. | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
Because the Rotherham biomass project and similar waste energy | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
project is not covered by collective agreements and because they are | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
under 50 megawatts, the employer can then pay below the rate and legally | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
get away with it. Well-meaning legislation from the European Union | :41:13. | :41:14. | |
to combat this malpractice doesn't go far enough. Italy currently gives | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
workers posted to work temporarily in another country the minimal | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
protection of the country's standards, namely the minimum wage. | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
This is not that you's fault, it is ours, by not protecting all workers' | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
blanket collective bargaining for blanket collective | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
all workers, firms will use caveats to exploit. A support of | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
collective-bargaining is the only solution to prevent exploitation of | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
immigrant labour and a real means by which we as a nation can prevent the | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
deliberate social discord rated amongst our own communities by the | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
means of effectively excluding workers from our own towns from | :42:02. | :42:03. | |
seeking and achieving meaningful employment. The means by which we | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
can achieve this and help local authorities under severe financial | :42:09. | :42:10. | |
and logistical pressure is to ensure that at the start of the planning | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
process, whether a power generation that is above or below 50 megawatts, | :42:16. | :42:22. | |
a collective agreement and national terms are adhered to by any complete | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
constructing on British soil. This must be clearly written within the | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
contract. Order. The question is that the honourable member have | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Who will | :42:41. | :42:48. | |
prepare and bring in the Bill? Kevin Barron, Sarah Champion, John Healey, | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
Andy McDonald, Anna Turney, Ian Wright, and myself, sir. | :42:55. | :43:08. | |
Town and country planning, electricity generating consent bill. | :43:09. | :43:36. | |
Second reading, what day? Friday the 13th of May. Friday the 13th of May. | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
Thank you. Order. We can now to... Oh, not before the point of order | :43:45. | :43:46. | |
from the honourable gentleman. Point of order. On a point of order, I | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
would like to ask you whether you have received immediate notification | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
of a statement by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
in respect of the admission by the chairman of dossiers relating to | :44:05. | :44:12. | |
parts of reactors meeting required standards had been falsified and the | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
extent to which those falsifications were present in the generic design | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
assessment process for the operation of reactors in the UK. No. I have | :44:22. | :44:31. | |
received no indication on this extremely important matter that the | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has any plans to make | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
a statement to the House. The honourable gentleman maybe | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
dissatisfied by that news, and if he is, he has manifold ways in which to | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
pursue the matter through the use of the order paper and the facility of | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
this chamber. And knowing his experience and dexterity, I feel | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
sure that he will use all the instrument is available to him. If | :45:00. | :45:08. | |
there no further points of order, we come now to the opposition day | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition. To move that motion, | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
I call the shadow Secretary of State for Health, Heidi Alexander. Thank | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move view motion on the order paper in my name | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
and the names of my honourable and right honourable friend. Before I | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
begin, can I inform the House that I have been told that the | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
Parliamentary Undersecretary of State, the member for Ipswich, will | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
be opening this debate for the government? Given that the Health | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
Secretary is sat next to him, can I ask why we will not be hearing from | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
his boss today? If you would like to explain a genuine reason, I would be | :45:52. | :45:57. | |
happy to take on intervention. If not, I take it that the Health | :45:58. | :46:00. | |
Secretary simply doesn't want to come to this house to defend his | :46:01. | :46:08. | |
policy. Order. There is a certain amount of chirruping from the | :46:09. | :46:10. | |
Treasury bench and elsewhere on this matter. I simply make two points. | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
First, it is for the government to decide which minister to field. But | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
I do very gently say to the Secretary of State, and indeed to | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
the deputy leader of the, that to sit on the bench while these matters | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
are being debated is one thing, particularly in the case of the | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
Secretary of State, but to sit there fiddling ostentatiously with an | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
electronic device devised the established convention of the House | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
that such devices should be used and I remind members, without impairing | :46:43. | :46:50. | |
Parliamentary decorum. They are imperilling Parliamentary decorum, | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
and in simple terms, are being discourteous to the shadow Secretary | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
of State and to the House. It is a point so blindingly obvious that | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
only an extraordinarily clever and sophisticated person could fail to | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
grasp it. Heidi Alexander. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Of course, this is | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
in the first time the Health Secretary has chosen not to respond | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
to debates that I have brought or questions I have put. Order. I say | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
to the deputy Leader of the House, put the device away, and if you | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
don't want to put it away, get out of the House. It is rude. Order! I | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
am not inviting a response from the honourable lady. I am simply telling | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
her it is discourteous to behave like that, a point that most people | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
would readily understand. The shadow Secretary of State, Heidi Alexander. | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
In the last few months ministers and I have had a number of exchanges | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
across this dispatch box about the unnecessary and dangerous fight this | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
Government is picking the junior doctors. You might think that, | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
having totally alienate it one section of the NHS workforce, | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
ministers would think twice about doing it again. That he would be | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
wrong. Not content with junior doctors, the Government are now | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
targeting the next generation of nurses, midwives and other allied | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
health professionals, podiatrist, physiotherapists, radiographers and | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
many, many more. Instead of investing in these health care | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
students, instead of valuing them, and protecting their bursaries, | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
which help with living costs, and cover all of their tuition fees, | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
this Government is asking them to pay for the privilege of training to | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
work in the NHS. Scrap the bursary, ask tomorrow's NHS workforce to rack | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
up a enormous debts, and claim this is the answer to current staff | :48:54. | :49:02. | |
shortages. I will give way. She is making a spending commitments so why | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
does she stand on a manifesto that oppose Government 10p in the pound | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
investment in the NHS a few months ago? Thank you, Mr Speaker. . The | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
Labour Party has always been clear it would have given the NHS every | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
penny it needs. You would think the approach that I have outlined when | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
it comes to health care students most people would think that the | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
Government have taken leave of their senses. And they would be right. A | :49:32. | :49:41. | |
few weeks ago... I'm very grateful. My constituents are baffled by the | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
approach the Government are taking at a time when local hospitals are | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
recruiting nurses from Spain and other European countries. To | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
actually stop bursaries to get more people into training seems | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
absolutely ridiculous. I absolutely agree with my honourable friend. | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
Indeed, the bursary acts as an incentive to get those students into | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
training and to get them into the NHS. A few weeks ago, the Government | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
launched their consultation on the technical detail of these changes. | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
Not the principal, just the detail. In his foreword, the Parliamentary | :50:21. | :50:22. | |
Under-Secretary of State claimed that these proposals are good for | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
students, good for patience and good for the NHS. The opposite is the | :50:28. | :50:35. | |
case. But before I set out why these plans are so bad, it's important we | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
remind ourselves why our country has a nursing shortage in the first | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
place. Shortly after the 2010 election, the Coalition Government | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
cut the number of nurse training commissions in an attempt to make | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
some short-term savings. Those cuts soared nurse training places reduced | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
from more than 20,000 a year to just 17,000, the lowest level since the | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
1990s. As a result, we trained 8000 fewer nurses in the last Parliament | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
and we would have done had we maintained commissions at 2010 | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
levels. At the time, experts such as the Royal College of Nursing, warned | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
that the cuts would cause, and I quote, "Serious issues in | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
undersupply for years to come." They were right. But they were ignored by | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
ministers who were too focused on the short-term and too distracted by | :51:33. | :51:40. | |
their plans to launch a massive reorganisation of the NHS. Our | :51:41. | :51:48. | |
health service is now suffering the consequences of those decisions. New | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
analysis by the House of Commons library which has been released | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
today has shown the number of nurses per head of the population fell from | :51:56. | :52:09. | |
6786 per million people in 2009 two 6645 in 2015. Unison survey | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
published just last week found that two thirds of respondents felt | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
staffing levels and got worse in the last year, with a further 63% saying | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
they felt they were inadequate numbers of staff on the wards to | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
ensure safe, dignified and compassionate care. Because of these | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
shortages, hospitals are forced to recruit from overseas or spend vast | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
amounts on expensive agency staff. I will gave way. In 2014-15, three 3p | :52:42. | :52:49. | |
was spent on agency staff in the NHS. Does this short-sighted move | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
mean Billy good trusts may be more reliant on agency staff as a result | :52:54. | :53:04. | |
of moving the bursary? She's to point out the problems of staff | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
shortages leading to more agency staff needing to be used are | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
creating an enormous black hole in hospital finances and my fear is | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
that these proposals would put off the next generation of nurses. It | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
now appears that the Government is making the same mistakes all over | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
again. A report sneaked out on the day this House rose for Easter | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
recess revealing the Government has only commissioned one tenth of the | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
extra nurse training places experts said we needed this year. The report | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
from the migration advisory committee says this. " We were told | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
that health education England has acknowledged that on the basis of | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
workforce modelling alone, they would have liked to commission an | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
additional 3000 places in 2016-17. Funding constraints meant they could | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
only commission an additional 331 places, one tenth of what was | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
actually needed." The report... I will gave way. Would she not agree | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
with me that by changing the way we run the NHS especially on bursaries | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
and opening it up to more of a competition, we would get more | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
nurses coming into the NHS plugging the gap she's describing? I don't | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
agree with the honourable gentleman. Further in my speech I will explain | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
in some detail as to why. I would like to go back to the migration | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
advisory committee report because it doesn't make happy reading for | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
ministers, Madam Deputy Speaker. It goes on to say," it seemed | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
self-evident to as the reduction in the number of commissioned training | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
places between 2010-13 across England, Scotland, Wales and | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
Northern Ireland was a significant contributing factor towards the | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
current national shortage of nurses and, finally, the crucial sentence | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
which sums up why we are experiencing across the board | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
nursing shortages, almost all of these issues relate to and are | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
caused by a desire to save money, but this is a choice, not a fixed | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
fact. The Government could invest and resource if it wanted to. Those | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
are not my words. They are the words of the migration advisory committee. | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
Hospitals are short of nurses, mental health services are short of | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
nurses, care homes, hospices, primary care is, too. We therefore | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
have a big problem. No one in this House disputes that but no one | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
should be under any illusion as to the cause. The question is, when | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
faced with this problem, what is the right thing to do? How best can | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
Government work with experts to ensure we are training enough staff | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
and supporting those staff so they stay motivated and stayed working in | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
the NHS? I will gave way. Of course we all agree there is a significant | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
shortage of nurses and his absolutely right to ask the question | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
what should be done. Issue therefore giving support to the government's | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
concept of associate nursing which I believe will make a huge difference | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
in places like my constituency, Gloucester, where we need new nurses | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
to increase the numbers of home trained nursing staff? I'm grateful | :56:35. | :56:42. | |
to the honourable gentleman for his question and think the key question | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
that we need to have answered with regard to nursing associates is | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
whether it's the intention of a Government that they replace | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
registered nurses, because if that's the case, I fear these proposals | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
would be bad for patient care. Madam Deputy Speaker, you might think a | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
sensible approach to try to resolve this problem would be to sit down | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
with the Royal College of Nursing and other trade unions, | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
universities, health providers, to try and work out a way forward but | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
no, this Government seems incapable of that. Instead, in just two lines | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
in the Chancellor's Autumn Statement, they announced they would | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
scrap NHS bursaries and asking student nurses to pay tuition fees. | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
The Minister will argue that this will allow universities to train | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
more students. But his problem is this. I will gave way. Doesn't you | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
think the Government doesn't do the Royal College when it says these | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
proposals they are putting forward our high risk, potentially deterring | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
students from entering the nursing profession and risks worsening the | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
current nursing shortage? I entirely agree with my honourable friend. I | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
think the Government's problem is this. They have failed to back up | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
their claims with any evidence. They are now faced with a breadth of | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
opposition to this proposal, not just from members of this House, but | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
from the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of midwives and | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
Unison, organisations such as million-plus, the Association for | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
modern universities, are also questioning the assumptions on which | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
the Government is basing this policy. I will gave way. Does she | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
agree with my constituent Zoe who was at trained nurse who was | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
concerned for mature students because she feels many of them, 50% | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
of the time is spent on unpaid clinical placements in hospital and | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
the community and therefore they don't have the opportunity to do | :58:50. | :58:52. | |
part-time work to support themselves as others do. Will not affect them | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
disproportionately? I do agree with my right honourable friend and I | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
will make some remarks on precisely that point later in my contribution. | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the purpose of the opposition in calling this | :59:09. | :59:10. | |
debate today is that we hope that this House can rally round what many | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
people would think is a straightforward and reasonable | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
proposal about the Government drops these plans and instead consults on | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
how to properly fund and support the future health care workforce. Let me | :59:25. | :59:31. | |
set out why these plans are bad for students, bad for patients, and bad | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
for the NHS. The Government claim these plans will leave health care | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
students 25% better off but what they won't say is that, according to | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
their own consultation, in order to be 25% better off, a student will | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
have to take out a maximum maintenance and tuition fee loan for | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
three years and will graduate with debts are between 48000 and ?59,000. | :59:55. | :00:02. | |
I will gave way. Many people in the House today will know I had a son at | :00:03. | :00:09. | |
23 weeks gestation which spent weeks in intensive care with a neonatal | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
nurse called Nicola who sadly died not long after my son come out of | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
hospital. I'm frightened many people like Nicola will not go into that | :00:19. | :00:26. | |
profession because of his astronomical amounts of debt they | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
will take on. Really, that's a progressive step in the Government | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
should think again about that. I completely agree with my honourable | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
friend. It seems the Government argument is students will be better | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
off because they can borrow more. The simple truth is that loan | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
repayments will head the take-home pay of nurses. There's no two ways | :00:48. | :00:52. | |
about it. The current starting salary from nurse is ?21,692. Just | :00:53. | :01:00. | |
above the student loan repayment threshold, which of course, has been | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
frozen. This means nurses will start paying off loans as soon is they | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
graduate and, according to Unison, based on current salary levels, and | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
this will be faced with an average pay debt of over ?900 a year to meet | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
their debt repayments. How can that possibly be justified? And worse, as | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
the average age of the student nurses 28, the current 30 year | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
payment period means many nurses will be paying off loans to within | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
years of retirement. On this side of the House, we say it is wrong to | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
burden the next generation of NHS staff with a lifetime of debt and | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
wrong to expect tomorrow's nurses to pay the price for this government's | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
mismanagement of the NHS. Does the Minister not understand that student | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
nurses, midwives and other allied health professionals are different | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
from other students? Can he not see it as dangerous to assume that just | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
because application rates remained stable after the troubling of | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
tuition fees in the last Parliament, the same will happen with his | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
proposals? I say to him, assuming health care students will respond in | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
the same way as other students to tuition fees hike, is one hell of an | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
assumption and one hell of a risk. Courses for nursing, midwifery and | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
other allied health professionals are substantially different to other | :02:30. | :02:37. | |
degrees. Not only are there fewer holidays, longer days, longer term | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
times, but students are also required to spend half their time in | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
clinical practice, 2300 hours in the case of a student nurse including | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
nights and weekend shifts as a normal part of their studies. I've | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
already given away to the honourable gentleman and I want to make some | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
progress. Madam Deputy Speaker, these changes will effectively | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
charge students for working in the NHS. And of course, longer term | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
placements also make it harder for these students together part-time | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
job to supplement their income as many other students do. It's not | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
just the course that makes health care students unique. They are much | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
more likely to be women, much more likely to be mature students, much | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
more likely to have children and more likely to be from the M E | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
backgrounds. Many nursing students have already completed 1 degrees and | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
turned to nursing in their late 20s or early 30s -- BME. The average age | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
of a student nurses 28. When I think of my own friends, who are nurses | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
and midwives, three out of four of them took the decision to retrain | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
having done a different first degree. Now I know the Minister | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
probably moves in different circles to me, but I can tell him that if he | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
wants a dose of reality, I'm sure my friends would be more than happy to | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
oblige. I understand that the Minister may not have experienced | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
the same conversations as I did within my working-class family about | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
the pluses and minuses of racking up debts to get a degree. But I can | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
tell him that, for many nurses, and his proposals, that will be an all | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
too real For the one in five health care | :04:33. | :04:41. | |
students with children, does he not realise that the fear of debt is | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
greater for them than for a carefree, privately educated history | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
student bound for Cambridge? Madame Deputy Speaker, my concern about | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
these proposals is that we ultimately end up with those who are | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
best placed to pay becoming nurses and midwives, and not those best | :05:02. | :05:10. | |
placed to care. That brings me to why these proposals are bad for | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
patients. I thank the honourable member for giving way. We are all | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
agreed on the need for more nurses, the question is how we fund them. | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
Will she advise how much money she would take away from front line NHS | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
care in order to fund the expansion of nurse places that we need in this | :05:29. | :05:36. | |
country? At the last election, we set out clearly costed plans for how | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
we would recruit additional nurses, doctors and care staff to the NHS. | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
The NHS should have a workforce that reflects the population it serves, | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
just as this place should. The mental health sector in particular | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
relies on mature students, and the additional life experience they've | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
bring -- and they bring to a demanding environment. A few months | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
ago, I met Marina, a young woman who has not had an easy life, but is now | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
on a mission to become a mental health nurse. When Marina says to me | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
that she thinks some of the people best placed to care for others are | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
those who have experienced hardships themselves, I think she has a point. | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
And when she says she would not have been able to start her training | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
without the bursary, I believe her. Why is the minister so convinced | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
that the NHS can do without people like Marina in the future, and why | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
does he think they should pay to train. Why will he not consider | :06:45. | :06:53. | |
other options for increasing student numbers? The quality of training | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
that student nurses, midwives and other allied health professionals | :06:59. | :07:00. | |
receive will also be dependent on the quality of their clinical | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
placements. Whilst government ministers claim these changes could | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
deliver up to 10,000 extra places over the course of this Parliament, | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
can they set out what capacity hospitals and other providers have | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
to accommodate these extra students, and whether health education England | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
has sufficient funds set aside to fund these placements? Can the | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
minister also be clear as to how they have arrived at this 10,000 | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
figure? Is this an assessment of what the system needs? Is it what | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
health education England can afford to fund, or is it simply a big | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
sounding number plucked out of the air at random? An extra 10,000 | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
compared to when? What is the baseline year from when to judge his | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
policy by? I have now asked the minister that question three times | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
in Britain parliamentary questions, and each time, I have not got an | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
answer. Does he not understand that if his department can't even ants | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
are a simple question about -- if they can not even answer a simple | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
question about the claims of their policy, it doesn't exactly inspire | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
confidence. There are some any questions the minister needs to | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
answer. It is impossible to do them all justice in one speech. As has | :08:24. | :08:32. | |
been indicated, it is agreed that we need to expand places, but thanks to | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
this government, 10 billion additional pounds has been put into | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
GP services, cancer treatment and hospital care. Which of those | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
services which she cut to fund the alternative bursary scheme she has | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
in mind? I am afraid the honourable gentleman does not seem to realise | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
that that money is plugging a very big black hole in NHS finances at | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
the moment. When the minister stands up, I am sure he will note that many | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
applicants to study nursing and other health care degrees are turned | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
away. But what proportion of those unsuccessful applicants actually | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
meet the entry criteria? How can he be sure that his new system will | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
deliver the required numbers of different types of nurses and other | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
health care professionals in the right geographical areas? Can he | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
also say what guarantees he has given to higher education | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
institutions that the new arrangements will cover the costs of | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
delivering degrees? Can he also say what assessment he has made of the | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
amount of an repaid student debt which will accumulate, given that | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
over a lifetime, some nurses will not earn enough to repay the | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
totality of their loans plus interest? The proposal to scrap NHS | :09:55. | :10:04. | |
bursaries is a massive gamble, at a time when the NHS needs certainty. | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
Put simply, it shifts the cost of training nurses, midwives and other | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
allied health professionals from the state to the individual. If we are | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
all happy to enjoy the benefits of the NHS, why should we not all | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
contribute to the training of those who work in it? I was the first | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
person in my family to go to university. I was someone who had my | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
tuition fees paid in full, and received a full maintenance grant. I | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
am really worried that people like me, people like my friends, will be | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
put off from what could be a fulfilling and important career. We | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
should be doing all we can to inspire today's's schoolchildren to | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
become nurses and health care professionals of the future. Sadly, | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
the government is doing a good job of doing the opposite. If ministers | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
want to continue to import staff from overseas, they are going the | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
right way about it. I say we owe a debt of attitude to those staff, but | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
we want home-grown staff as well. In conclusion, I would like to return | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
to the government's consultation. One of the sections is titled | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
"Nursing, midwifery and allied health professionals students | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
deserve the same opportunities as other students". On this side of the | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
House, we say no. They deserve better. They should be treated | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
differently to other students, as they will look after us when we are | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
older, who will care for our relatives when they are sick and who | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
will staff the NHS when this shambolic government has long gone. | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
The government should drop these proposals and think again. I commend | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
this motion to the House. The question is as on the order paper. | :12:11. | :12:20. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to be answering this | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
motion put by the honourable lady, not least because I think this is | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
potentially one of the most exciting things we will do in the NHS in the | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
next five years to increase opportunity and quality and the | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
presence of nursing staff on warts. And we will do that because of a | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
reform that has helped so many other students across this country in the | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
last five years. The honourable lady came to the House at the same time | :12:51. | :12:58. | |
as I did. We were in that debate in November 2010, on opposite sides of | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
the House, making contributions in a debate where many of us were anxious | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
about the outcome, not least because of the enormous pressures that were | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
on us from our constituents. Members who have been here for many years | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
will know that it was the first time you could hear a riot outside the | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
chamber whilst you were sitting in this place. And they were outside, | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
complaining that we were going to destroy the ability of people to go | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
to university. We were going to make it impossible for people to go who | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
came from disadvantaged backgrounds, and we were going to set back years | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
of progress in closing the inequality gap in this country. | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
There were people who spoke on both sides of the House who feel very | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
passionately about that. We believe it could be sold by different means. | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
But we have had the ability of the last five years to see the effect of | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
the changes and to see, as the honourable lady has posited in her | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
speech, the evidence for the changes that were made. And the evidence is | :14:07. | :14:14. | |
clear. This year, there were 394,380 people accepted onto places in this | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
country. That is 35,000 more people accepted onto university places than | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
in 2010, when we had that debate. If that were one university, it would | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
be the fourth largest university in this country. That was a result of | :14:32. | :14:43. | |
the reforms undertaken in this House in 2010. But the honourable lady | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
says, how was it that that expanded opportunity to those who most need | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
university? I regret the tone she took in this portion of her remarks. | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
I am afraid it was beneath. It is indeed wrong that when I went to | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
university, my fees were in part paid for by nurses on low wages | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
paying tax. That is wrong. We accepted that that was wrong. We | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
also accepted that the system was not helping people who most need | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
university in order to escape their backgrounds to get into university. | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
So the results we should really be looking for what has helped people | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
from disadvantaged backgrounds get into university in the last five | :15:30. | :15:38. | |
years. In the last five years, the numbers of people going to | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
university from disadvantaged backgrounds has increased by 10,150, | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
a massive increase over the last five years. Had someone said that | :15:49. | :15:56. | |
would be possible in 2010, I doubt anyone would have given 5000-1 odds | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
on that happening. But 10,150 people is the size of the university of | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
Leicester. It is the number of people who we have brought into the | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
university sector as a result of the changes we have made. One university | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
more follow people from disadvantaged backgrounds that we | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
have created -- full of people. I know that her motivations in 2010 | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
were entirely honest and commendable. I also know that many | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
members of the side of the House felt likewise, but we have to accept | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
when we get things wrong man that is where am afraid the honourable lady, | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
not ourselves, is failing to learn from history. Back in that debate, | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
she said "I fear", in an intervention on one of my honourable | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
friend 's," that the changes proposed will mean huge debt forced | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
onto students and they could now have a greater incentive to go to | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
university than there is for students from more affluent | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
backgrounds". She made exactly the same point she has made in this | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
debate back in 2010. She was wrong then, and I humbly suggest that she | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
is wrong on this occasion. She should listen to the evidence that | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
has been put forward not by me but by so many institutions about the | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
progress that has been made in reducing inequality. For that reason | :17:27. | :17:36. | |
alone, I will come onto the reasons for reducing bursaries later. | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Does he not accept that health care students have very different | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
characteristics compared to other students and their behaviour will | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
not be the same, necessarily, as those students who were affected by | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
the reforms in the last Parliament? I do accept the differences. Implied | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
in her point she is accepting she was wrong in 2010 and therefore | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
should be more measured about the proposals. It hasn't all been plain | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
sailing since the reforms came in, not least the impact on applications | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
from materials students. Given the proportion of material students who | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
make up the nursing cohort does the Minister not accept there is nothing | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
in the consultation that proposes how to mitigate against that risk to | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
good recruits from mature student backgrounds who currently make up a | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
significant proportion of the nursing workforce? He is wrong on | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
both points. The number of material student applications is higher than | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
in 2010 and there are specific recommendations to deal with mature | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
students. Doesn't this demonstrate the point he is making that you have | :18:54. | :19:01. | |
a choice? You either inspire people to aspire and give them the | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
opportunity to come into the NHS by talking it up or you top it down by | :19:05. | :19:13. | |
being negative and put people off. I believe that is why the opposition | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
was wrong in 2010 and had we followed their advice we would have | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
fewer people from disadvantaged backgrounds going to university. As | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
a result of us taking forward brave proposals in the teeth of | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
opposition, we have done more for the prospects of people from | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds since education -- higher education was | :19:42. | :19:52. | |
reformed. The fact that the offer of an alternative is so anaemic makes | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
it clear there is no alternative suggestion the honourable lady can | :19:57. | :20:11. | |
put forward, which is an increase in numbers and people from diverse | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
backgrounds. It implies she accepts that workforce planning over the | :20:17. | :20:27. | |
last 40 years has failed. Perhaps she is not willing to say that is | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
because everything we have to do now to correct workforce numbers, the | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
5000 additional GPs my right honourable friend fought the last | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
election campaign on and will deliver in the next few years, is a | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
result of commissioning decisions being made poorly, not under the | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
Coalition Government or even the latter years of the Labour | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
government but 20 or 30 years ago. It is the failure to predict in | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
advance of the numbers of GPs and professionals that is landing is in | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
these perpetual situations where we are not accepting British students | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
who want to do a training course into university places and so not | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
creating the number of domestic trained nurses we need, and having | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
the response to the inadequacies in care uncovered in the mid-Staffs | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
scandal and the failure of the Labour government to have nurse | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
numbers across the country, importing nurses from abroad and | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
filling most places with agency posts, something we have to correct | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
now. Can I just tell the Minister that one of the main areas of | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
feedback I have had from the Salisbury Hospital foundation trust | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
is that they are frustrated with the reliance on agency nurses so I | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
welcome the Government 's moves in this area because it will open up | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
the supply and reduce the reliance and significant additional cost over | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
the last few years? It is precisely to help that hospital we are making | :22:09. | :22:18. | |
these reforms. He said before there was no alternative to these | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
proposals. Can he tell us which of the Royal colleges the consulted | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
with before that decision? I have spoken at length with the Royal | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
College of Nursing but we do differ on key parts of the plant but I | :22:37. | :22:46. | |
would expect that. -- plan. You will see in their initial response to the | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
consultation that they accept the premise under which we are | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
proceeding. I want to find through the period of consultation those | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
areas where we can agree and improve the proposals we have put before the | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
public and that is why we have been very open about this consultation | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
and offered the full length, 12 weeks. Many people said we would not | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
but we did. Precisely so we can listen to the concerns and exciting | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
challenges across the sectors and improve our proposals to the NHS. | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
There is a suggestion of a whole series of things apart from one | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
thing which is the opposition's proposals to do anything different. | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
What they will not do is offer new money to the NHS. They were offering | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
?4.5 billion less than we did at the last election. It would have to be | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
cut elsewhere in the service, I can only presume. The honourable lady | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
has no credibility in making her argument unless she comes to the | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
House saying she will offer 10,000 additional training places and pay | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
for them out of taxpayers' money rather than finding an alternative | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
funding mechanism. I will say this. I am not going to lead the House by | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
a series of suggestions about what might or might not be better and | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
merely setting to criticised the proposals rather than offering | :24:18. | :24:26. | |
constructive ideas. She is contributing now in her debate | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
although sadly there were no actual solutions about what we could do | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
alternatively. What I intend to do is set up not by suggestion but by | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
very clear announcement the plans that we have, the reasons why we | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
want to do them and how we will enact them over the years to come. | :24:44. | :24:52. | |
This opposition has proffered many solutions to the Government over | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
time. Last week, in the form of a cross-party solution to the doctors | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
crisis, which was thrown back in the face of our front bench. There is a | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
solution. The Government at the moment is taking an apprenticeship | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
leading from large employers, including the NHS. Would he agree to | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
speak his business colleagues to see whether the apprenticeship levy | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
could be spent on subsidising nurses to tackle the challenge they have in | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
funding? Has honourable friend, the member for Ilford North, discussed | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
this with me a number of times and he has concerns about the proposals. | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
He offered useful suggestions about the detail and I accepted what he | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
wanted to say and incorporated them within our thinking. I am willing to | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
listen to people across the House when they have helpful suggestions | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
and I'm sure the Minister for Skills would like to listen to his | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
contributions. The way not to do it is to come to the House with a | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
series of criticisms and not one suggestion, least of all any money | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
to provide an increase in training places this plan was provide. -- | :26:04. | :26:14. | |
will provide. Were it not even further number and reason of | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
producing 10,000 additional training places in our university systems, or | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
for the fact we have a broken planning system, because we will not | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
be able to predict in 20 or 30 years' time the number of NHS | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
workers we will require, even if it were not for that it would be | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
important to make this change because of the changes it will make | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
to the quality of training we can provide to nursing graduates. What | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
has happened in the undergraduate sector across the rest of | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
undergraduate training is that we have seen universities released to | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
innovate, provide improvements in their courses, satisfaction levels | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
have gone up, dropping out rates have gone down, and people are | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
getting a better experience. But we have not been able to spread those | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
advantages to nurses who, I'm afraid, still are trapped in a | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
system which is prescriptive rather than listening to what they need and | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
what their future employers will need in terms of skills. That is why | :27:22. | :27:29. | |
by releasing universities from the straitjacket in which they have had | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
to operate, we will be able to provide significant improvements to | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
the quality of training they provide. It is an assertion which is | :27:37. | :27:44. | |
backed up by the evidence of the past five years and has received the | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
recommendation of Professor Jessica Corner, the chairman of the Council | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
of deans of health. She said, we recognise this has been a difficult | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
decision to the Government at we are pleased the Government has found a | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
way forward. Fully implemented, this should allow universities in | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
partnership with NHS to increase places and improve day-to-day | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
financial support for students while they study. The plan means students | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
will have access to more day-to-day maintenance support through the | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
system and likewise universities UK support increasing professional | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
student numbers to work with the Government and NHS to secure the | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
sustainable funding system we have provided. They are pleased about the | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
impact this will have on placement training. These are the people | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
providing training in our NHS and they support the proposals we have | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
had forward because they will release the same kind of innovation | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
we have seen elsewhere in the university sector. I wanted to | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
reinforce a point he is making witches, I think, and he will know | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
the answer, that the shows actually far more people from deprived | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
backgrounds have gone to university since the changes made five years | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
ago. Could you confirm that? At a time when the benches opposite said | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
it would have the opposite effect. The evidence is more conclusive then | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
he said. Could you confirm the maintenance grants will go up to | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
25%, which will help on that specific point he mentioned? It | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
brings me onto the next point I wanted to make which is the great | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
virtue of these reforms as far as June finance is concerned is that it | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
means we can increase student finance support, maintenance support | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
by 25 cent. She makes some clear and sensible points that working as a | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
student nurse, training as a student nurse is different from being a | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
history undergraduate. It means you have less time to take on jobs but | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
even more reason therefore to provide better maintenance support. | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
She has not come to the House saying she is gone to provide 25% | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
additional maintenance support for students who do not have the time to | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
be able to go and get second jobs as a result. She has not come with that | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
commitment and yet she has criticised our efforts to increase | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
maintenance support by 25% precisely to help those people who would not | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
otherwise be able to take time out in order to take on university | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
courses. She cannot have it both ways. She can't on one hand | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
criticise us for the reforms we are undertaking while at the same time | :30:35. | :30:37. | |
seeing students need greater support. It is through those reforms | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
we are producing the support so many students require. He talks about | :30:43. | :30:51. | |
maintenance support. Can you clarify that support will no longer be in | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
the form of a grant but in the form of a loan and will land a student in | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
even more debt when they finally qualify? By reforming the system so | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
it becomes alone rather than a grant we are able to produce 25% extra | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
support for students whilst the train, much as with the rest of the | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
student population. The results on newly qualified nurses are not, as | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
the honourable lady suggests. Here, she should be very clear in the way | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
she addresses this question because all of us have a duty to inform the | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
public properly. The one thing that would be remiss of us is even if we | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
disagreed as to mislead potential students into thinking they will | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
have to pay more than they otherwise would. In her speech she said that | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
students would have to pay hundreds of pounds more in terms of | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
repayments once they qualify. It just is not the case. We anticipate | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
a newly qualified nurse will be paying roughly ?90 per year more, | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
about the same as they are currently paying because of the way student | :32:06. | :32:13. | |
payment finance is, and the impact on newly qualified nurses will not | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
be anywhere near the impact she has suggested. She should be careful | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
about how she addresses are points because otherwise people will | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
receive an impression about these loans that is not fact. Can he tell | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
us what cancellation he has made of how much will be unpaid back of the | :32:36. | :32:47. | |
loan? The economic impact assessment as part of the consultation. It | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
depends on the way the student work first developed over the next 20 or | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
30 years but it is fully costed within the Treasury's assumptions. | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
We anticipate people working beneath the current limits will not be | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
paying back more than at the moment. That is the way the payments are | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
cultivated. This will not land on newly qualified nurses with new | :33:13. | :33:14. | |
payments that they had otherwise not expected. | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
I am grateful to the Honourable Gentleman. The Minister urged me to | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
be careful with my words, which I was, and I recognise he is being | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
careful with his as well. He is talking about newly qualified | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
nurses. Can he confirm what the average repayment would be for the | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
average nurse? The average nurse, as she claims it, is not a figure we | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
currently have, because how would I project 50 years into the future for | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
precisely the reasons we have discussed, where their career path | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
will go? But the actual repayments, I will turn to the Honourable Lady | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
from Kingston-upon-Hull in a second, the actual payments are listed in | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
the consultation document and are clear about the man to be paid back | :34:12. | :34:19. | |
over and above what would -- what students would be expected to pay -- | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
the amount to be paid back. The only way we are going to square the | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
circle is by reforming student finance, so rather than shouting, | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
she may like to know that whereas she suggested many in her | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
constituency would be none the wiser about this reform, when I talked | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
about the reforms to nurses in her constituency a few moments ago and | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
about the introduction of apprenticeships, nursing associate | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
grades, all of which are at peace with the reforms I am outlining, | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
they were excited about the changes we are making to the nursing | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
profession. All of this is only possible within a budget carefully | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
controlled where priorities are being made about where money is | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
being spent. I will give way. From a sedentary position I shouldn't have | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
been shouting at the Minister that I am surprised that he comes to this | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
House and is unable to answer a basic question about what the amount | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
of money lost would be through the scheme he wants to Jews. Surely he | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
ought to those facts at his fingertips. I do have them. A newly | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
qualified nurse will not pay more than one under the current system. | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
For those on higher pay rates... If she does not have the details I will | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
write to her with the details. What I will say to be Honourable ladies | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
and gentleman opposite is that rather than picking precisely at | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
points because they are refusing to face up to the fact that they have | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
two fund their commitments out of additional money, they should listen | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
carefully to the entirety of the reforms we are proposing. I will | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
make some progress if the Honourable Lady will not mind. First we are | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
introducing a new nursing associate grade which my Honourable Friend | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
mentioned previously. This is an extraordinary opportunity to be able | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
to eradicate one of the great unfairness is in the NHS at the | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
moment, that there are brilliant people working as health care | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
assistants who cannot become registered nurses because they were | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
let down by the schools they went to. It is a consequence I am afraid | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
of the failure of school reform under the previous Government and | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
over previous governments, people were failed to the extent that they | :36:43. | :36:51. | |
have not been given the opportunities they deserve. We will | :36:52. | :36:53. | |
reverse them by providing an apprenticeship ladder, both to | :36:54. | :36:55. | |
nursing associate role and from there to registered nursing | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
position, degree apprenticeship available to both able and confident | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
to reach that grade, a route of opportunity not available under the | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
previously the Government, a route of opportunity brought in by this | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
Conservative Government, one nation party for all. It is by making those | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
reforms, by bringing in a nursing associate role, by creating 100,000 | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
apprentices in the NHS, many of whom will be health care assistants | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
working their way to a nursing associate position and from there to | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
registered nursing grade, will give multiple opportunities for people to | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
become nurses. Both those who want to learn while they are learning who | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
are already in the service, who will take four and a half, five, six | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
years to get to a registered nursing role or those able to take time out | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
to do a degree to become a registered nurse for whom we will | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
provide additional support in terms of maintenance grants. Members are | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
shaking their hands but I don't know what out, are they shaking their | :38:04. | :38:06. | |
heads at the 100,000 apprenticeships we are creating or the nursing | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
associate roles, or at the increased maintenance support? None of that | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
has been addressed in the Honourable Lady's speech. That is why I hope in | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
my last remaining minutes, I hope my Honourable Friend won't mind if I | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
conclude my remarks. I know members across the House want to intervene | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
on this debate. Why this reform is important, not just for individuals | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
who want to become nurses, not just for matters of social equality and | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
opportunity, but also important for the NHS. You see, the NHS is not | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
able to innovate like other parts of our public sector and private sector | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
because of the long lead times in terms of training people. We do not | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
have the instruments within the NHS to be able to reflect the dramatic | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
changes in demographics and technology which changed the NHS not | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
year by year but month on month. The great benefit of bringing in | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
apprenticeship routes, nursing associate roles, of diverse of the | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
skill mix, creating quicker and more numerous routes into the nursing | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
profession, is that we can create a more diverse, more flexible and more | :39:21. | :39:28. | |
agile trained workforce. All will be possible because of the reforms of | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
which this bursary reform is part. None would have been possible with | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
the reduction in funding promised by the party opposite or the failure to | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
wish reform upon the system. That is why, Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope | :39:41. | :39:48. | |
this House will reject this motion, full of suggestions and indications | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
rather than firm plans, from the party opposite. This motion says | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
nothing for the future of the people that the NHS depend upon. It does | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
nothing to suggest how we will increase numbers or provide | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
additional maintenance support, almost importantly, provide | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
opportunity for those who have not yet had any. We will do that by | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
reforming the system just as we did in 2010. We will make sure we do not | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
listen to the well-intentioned but erroneous voices from the party | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
opposite, which had we listen to in 2010, would have denied opportunity | :40:26. | :40:34. | |
to tens of thousands of people. We will be determined not to do that. | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
We will be the party of opportunity, presenting it to those who want to | :40:38. | :40:39. | |
be in nursing or any other position in the NHS because this will only be | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
a truly national health this event provides opportunity to the many, | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
not the few. Many thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker. I must initially | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
declare an interest you to my work in the NHS and for having had the | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
privilege of being trained as a doctor with the availability of a | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
grant. The National Health Service is one of our most esteemed public | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
services but at present in the UK there is a long-standing shortage of | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
qualified health care professionals. While the current bursary system for | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
nursing and allied health care students may not be without issue | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
the UK Government's proposed changes to this as laid out are concerning. | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
Additionally, is the manner these have been presented with detailed | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
consideration of the impact somewhat lacking? As you have heard, the UK | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
Government are proposing the current NHS bursary system be changed. | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
Instead health care students will be required to pay tuition fees and be | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
subject to the same standard loan system other students in a number | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
subject to. The UK Government have indicated they expect these reforms | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
to create up to 10,000 additional nurses and health professional | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
training places over the current Parliament. But this appears to be | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
narrow sighted. The proposed move to a system allowing students funding | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
themselves by taking on debts as raid substantial concerns amongst | :42:09. | :42:09. | |
unions, professional bodies and students. One of the key questions | :42:10. | :42:17. | |
is such a move could be a barrier to tearing prospective students from | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
entering the profession. I must say as I stand here, the first doctor in | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
my family, I would not have considered applying had it meant | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
racking up such debt. I am particularly concerned about access | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
to doctorate causes and for postgraduate requirements. Will we | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
create an elite workforce, one not based upon ability but instead upon | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
means? Unison estimate that under the new scheme student undertaking a | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
three-year 30 week course outside London will graduate with debtor lit | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
-- of at least ?51,600 plus interest and any over draft plus any personal | :42:55. | :43:04. | |
debt. Her own achievements are to be applauded by all of us, but does she | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
recognise that there are people out there who don't think university is | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
for them, but for whom a two-year apprenticeship course offered by the | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
new nursing associate route will give a real opportunity to get into | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
the NHS, and maybe later go on to be a full nurse. I thank the Honourable | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
Member for his intervention. I would like to see a widening of access | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
into schemes in the NHS in terms of training. I would hope that it is | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
properly funded and we don't rely on NHS staff to take other jobs while | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
training and to undertake the stress of the straining along is -- stress | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
of the training alongside other jobs. We know the NHS staff we have | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
are invaluable and we want to fund them in that capacity. For many, | :43:54. | :44:01. | |
their loans may be higher due to the additional cost from longer courses | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
and courses in London, and as already stated I am particular | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
concerned about postgraduate courses for doctorate trainees who may not | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
be able to afford continual loans which are to their debt. As such it | :44:13. | :44:19. | |
is likely that the majority of health care students, the size of | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
their debt could be considerably higher. I believe it is naive to | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
think larger loans will not be a psychological deterrent, especially | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
those from poorer or nonuniversity backgrounds or mature students, or | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
those who have changed careers who may have additional financial | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
responsibilities or debts from those degrees or in relation to family | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
life. The demographic of students on nursing, midwifery and allied health | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
professions tends to be different from other student populations as we | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
have heard. It is more likely to be women from black and minority ethnic | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
backgrounds, parents and mature students. It is likely therefore, | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
and a real concern, that abolishing bursaries will reduce diversity, | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
Foster inequality and encourage potentially high quality applicants. | :45:07. | :45:14. | |
I thank the Member for giving way. She is making a very valid, | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
important point. Can I get to something the Minister said, the | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
frustration for me was that I was a Unison trade union wrap before I | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
came to this place in home care, and we were able, with those women who | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
weren't qualified before, give them access to health care assistant to a | :45:34. | :45:42. | |
foundation degree, vacation all degree, into hospital, in much the | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
way the Minister claims is not possible. It is important they are | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
not disadvantaged by the thousands of pounds of debt they take on. I | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
think you have made your own point! It is extremely important that | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
people from all backgrounds are encouraged to enter our NHS. We have | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
a diverse society in the UK and we have two insure our health staff | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
respect this and support people from all backgrounds to enter it -- | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
health care staff. I also think it is not enough just to increase | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
numbers by creating an open market for training. To ensure a quality | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
service it is crucial that student places are well planned, well | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
supervised and well distributed between the areas within the | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
service. Therefore much consultation will be required. In response to the | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
Government's proposals the chief executive of the Royal College of | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
Nursing has commented, the last thing we need are disincentives to | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
recruitment. We should do everything possible to attract applicants as | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
the country needs more nurses now than any other time in history. The | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
Honourable Member is making many valid points. For example, if you | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
live in Wales and you want to study at an English university the | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
proposals are to stop the bursary but if you live in England, Scotland | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
or Northern Ireland and want to study in Wales, Welsh university, | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
nursing, midwifery or an allied health profession, the label Welsh | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
Government will pay that bursary. Taking that to conclusion, the | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
numbers will decrease in England and increase in Wales and Scotland and | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
Northern Ireland. But my most concerning point is that the UK | :47:34. | :47:39. | |
Government does not commit to undertaking an impact assessment on | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
cross-border applications before proceeding with these changes. Does | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
the Honourable Member think they should have? Many thanks. Once again | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
the Honourable Lady makes her point very well. My belief is that we are | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
required to staff the NHS well across the UK. Impact assessments | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
may be required to be considered down the line if there is a shortage | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
as a result of this policy in England, and I hope that answers | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
your point. In Scotland the SNP Government recognised the value of | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
investing in our NHS and provided a support package which is hugely | :48:18. | :48:18. | |
generous in comparison to England. Singh and midwifery student | :48:19. | :48:35. | |
bursary... This can be topped up with a range of income assessed | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
allowances. There are other examples of other ways to progress in terms | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
of this policy. Under the SNP government, the NHS staff numbers | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
have increased by over 10000 and the party is committed to supporting the | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
development of a quality health service which will meet the needs of | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
Scottish people not just now only but in the future as well. Workforce | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
projections from this years show 1000 extra NHS staff expected to be | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
recruited across Scotland this year. There is an 8.4% increase in NHS | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
staffing to a record high, more qualified nurses and midwives per | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
1000 population in Scotland than in England and Wales and in the last | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
year Scotland has seen all nursing and midwifery staff increase with a | :49:28. | :49:35. | |
projected increase of 600 full-time equivalents over the financial year. | :49:36. | :49:44. | |
Doctors are up 26.7% or 2000 500 full-time equivalents, and | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
consultants are at a record high. If a newly qualified nurse is | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
guaranteed one year of employment once they complete studies, a | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
commitment not offered anywhere else in the UK. The health Minister also | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
confirmed the nursing and midwifery student bursary and allowance would | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
be protected at existing levels in 2016/ 17. The NHS is a crucial | :50:09. | :50:20. | |
public service and this government cannot continue to railroad their | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
way through it. Although reform may be needed to address current issues | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
within the service, such decisions should not be made hastily and | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
without full consideration of the impact and potential workable | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
alternatives. We have already heard workable alternatives today. I would | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
urge the Minister to commit to a comprehensive consultation on the | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
full proposals to determine the best way to support and invest in the | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
service and to support its students. This is a vital workforce which we | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
depend upon in our times of crisis. It is only right that the should be | :50:57. | :51:06. | |
able to depend upon us during their training and the NHS in future. We | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
will have a time of seven minutes to start with. There are quite large of | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
people wanting to speak. Can I start by congratulating the shadow health | :51:19. | :51:26. | |
secretary by calling this debate? It matters because of the impact on | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
patients, the nursing workforce shortfall. We had evidence on the | :51:31. | :51:40. | |
health committee about an estimated shortfall of 15,000 - 20,000 nurses. | :51:41. | :51:47. | |
It is not the overall shortfall but variations geographically and in key | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
areas, primary care, community, mental health, so we need to look at | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
this as a big picture. That shortfall adds costs and we know the | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
agency staffing bill was around ?3.3 billion in the last year. And three | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
quarters of trusts are still breaching the agency price caps. | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
Although we are making some progress with it being 303 million in October | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
last year and 287 in February this year. These are resources which | :52:18. | :52:22. | |
should be spent elsewhere on patient care. There is an over dependence on | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
nurses trained overseas, very valued part of the workforce but these are | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
often recruited from countries that can ill afford to lose them. We need | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
to train more nurses. That is the prime consideration of this debate | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
and how we achieve that. I congratulate the minister in the | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
proposals to open up very many more places to nursing students but we | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
should consider some unintended consequences and those are the areas | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
I would like to touch on further. We must do so without disadvantaging or | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
cutting off our current core nursing workforce and it is absolutely right | :53:02. | :53:08. | |
we pay particular attention to the impact on mature students because we | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
have heard the data on that. 23% of all nursing applicants are over 30. | :53:14. | :53:19. | |
More than half are over 21. The average age is 28. This mature | :53:20. | :53:26. | |
nursing workforce, are they going to be deterred from applications? We | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
have already seen an innovative example. That is the University of | :53:33. | :53:43. | |
Bolton partnering with the Lancashire teaching hospitals NHS | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
Foundation Trust to start offering places where students apply through | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
the UCAS route and they introduced 25 places in the first pilot, | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
February last year, there were 650 applicants for those 25 places. Even | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
though the applicant 's new they would have to access loans. A very | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
successful second round, and it is now increased to 75 places this | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
year. I think the assumption that people simply will not apply for | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
these courses is not correct. Of course we need to bear in mind that | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
does not necessarily mean we can extrapolate that to a wider increase | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
in numbers but I think one of the things perhaps I would say to the | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
Minister is, is there any room as we start to roll this out to retain in | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
the first few years at least until we know the impact, some bursaries | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
for our very valued core material nursing workforce? Is that something | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
he would touch on in summing up, if there is any room for a period of | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
transition? It is important that we bear in mind the potential for | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
unintended consequences here. The fact is that two thirds of those | :55:00. | :55:06. | |
applying for nursing places are unsuccessful. I think it is | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
unreasonable not to increase the opportunity for those students. I | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
very much welcome the Minister's plan to rule out other opportunities | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
to enter the nursing workforce. We know from the Cavendish review that | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
one of the reasons we lose so many of our core health care assistant | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
workforce is because there are now continuing professional development | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
opportunities for them and very many of those who we know are fantastic | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
at their job are no longer able to progress in the way we should allow. | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
The focus should be what is best for patients. That is for us to train up | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
a more diverse workforce and to do so through many routes. I think | :55:53. | :56:00. | |
there is a case for saying let's not completely abolish bursaries in the | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
first round but perhaps phase that in slowly. Perhaps another | :56:06. | :56:07. | |
opportunity we could look at to attract people into nursing is to | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
recognise the clinical component is very high in the nursing Court, | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
around 50%, and is there any way we could recognise that with a system | :56:20. | :56:24. | |
for those who would otherwise be deterred from payment? Or perhaps at | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
the end of a nursing course, recognising, particularly for mature | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
students have taken on a second agree, could we allow an extra | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
payments to go for those nurses, particularly those who will go on to | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
train in specialties, linked with a period of NHS service? I know we are | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
using that in general practice to attract people into specialties. | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
Would the Minister also consider in responding to the legitimate | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
concerns about the impact on the mature nursing workforce? In | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
summary, I would say there are things we are doing and making | :57:05. | :57:11. | |
progress on but I think we should recognise unintended consequences. I | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
hope the Minister will also look at some of the other recommendations | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
from the recent health committee inquiry into primary care to | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
actually ask what we can do is we increase the number of the courses, | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
to increase the exposure to shortage specialties within the period of | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
their training. Too many of our health care workforce are staying | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
within acute-care and we know if they have increased exposure during | :57:41. | :57:49. | |
training they are unlikely go into specialties. Could the Minister | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
please touch on the area of registration? We heard evidence that | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
sometimes not being registered as a deterrent to people taking on | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
physician associates and I think it is a recognition of their skills and | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
expertise to allow them to be registered. These should be | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
professional qualifications and I hope the Minister will refer to that | :58:17. | :58:25. | |
in his summing up. Jeff Smith. It is a great pleasure to follow the | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
honourable lady. I have a lot of respect for her and she commands | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
respect across the House and it is important we listened to her views. | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
It is important to listen to other people's views, like her colleague | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
who said, speaking as a nurse I would struggle to undertake miners | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
training given the proposals bursary scheme changes. I don't think it has | :58:49. | :58:56. | |
been thought through. As a South Manchester MP I am proud to | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
represent a large number of Manchester University students | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
including many of our nurses and midwives of the future. The school | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
of nursing midwifery and social work at Manchester University was the | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
first institution in England to offer a nursing course and it | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
remains one of the top ten universities in the world to study | :59:14. | :59:21. | |
that same degree today. For the 2000 students currently studying there as | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
well as those weighing up their future with health care education in | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
mind, the Government proposals on student bursaries do nothing to | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
instil any confidence that the Government understands the | :59:32. | :59:33. | |
perspective of student nurses or potential student nurses. I want to | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
use my brief remarks to raise two main points. First, the | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
disappointing lack of consultation with organisations such as the Royal | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
College of Nursing and the effectiveness will have on potential | :59:49. | :59:55. | |
future students and patient care. Ensuring access to these professions | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
remains fair and funding is sustainable and that the Government | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
suspects with experts -- consults with experts is vital. One of the | :00:08. | :00:17. | |
biggest concerns consistently raised is the Government's reluctance to | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
engage with stakeholders. We have heard from charities, | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
representatives of organisations and think tanks that the evidence base | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
for these proposals is at best uncertain and at worst nonexistent. | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
I think the very real fear is these proposals will reduce and not | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
increase numbers entering nursing studies. Even the 12 week | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
consultation the minister spoke of earlier takes the form of a | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
technical questionnaire on their implementation of the proposals | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
rather than a real consultation on the substantive policy proposals. In | :00:53. | :01:02. | |
terms of stakeholders consultation and so on, would he agree with me | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
that where you have a hospital like Gloucestershire Royal hospital which | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
is very strongly supporting the concept of nursing associates and | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
wants to run a pilot project, you must assume they see real value in | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
terms of providing good nursing for its patients and my constituents and | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
that surely is is telling us anything in a formal consultation? | :01:25. | :01:32. | |
Parliamentary questions showed us the Department of Health failed to | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
consult with either of the Royal College of midwives, nursing or | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
Unison prying... Prior to last year. It is not just the Labour Party who | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
are worried, there is Royal colleges, the NHS independent review | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
body and other members across the House. It is little surprise that | :01:56. | :02:05. | |
they fail to understand the unique characteristics of the sector and | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
those who work in it. This has been driven by short-term financial | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
savings at the cost of tackling the big questions about how we fund the | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
NHS in decades to come. What about the effects of this policy on the | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
nurses and midwives of the future? At the centre of any health care | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
education policy must be the students themselves. In this case | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
they are diverse, older than most, the average age is 28, | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
overwhelmingly female, greater numbers from BME backgrounds and | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
completing a degree that necessitates 2300 hours over three | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
years in clinical practice. Any legislation we need to design to | :02:47. | :02:53. | |
encourage students in future to guarantee high quality care for | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
patients must recognise those people, people like Katie, a nurse | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
in my constituency who wrote to me about our concerns about the | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
prospect of debt. She said it is particularly worrying for mature | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
students, many of whom have dependents and it could deter them | :03:12. | :03:13. | |
from joining the profession altogether. I can relate to this is | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
the real my close colleagues are mature students and stated on | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
multiple occasions that without the bursary nursing school would not | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
have been an option. Student nurses are not like other students. 50% of | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
their time is spent on unpaid clinical placements in hospitals and | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
therefore there are simply not the same opportunities for part-time | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
work as other students. I could not have completed this course without | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
the bursary. Studying nursing involves anticipation in | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
extracurricular activities and this is in line with the recent national | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
initiative revalidation therefore time for part-time work becomes very | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
difficult and many of my friends have been turned away from part-time | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
jobs because our weekly schedules, working shifts and completing unique | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
work is often sporadic. -- university work. This bursary | :04:07. | :04:09. | |
covered my rent and without it I would not have been able to support | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
myself and Norwood my family. We must take these views on board when | :04:15. | :04:15. | |
we look at this new policy. The House of Commons research has | :04:16. | :04:26. | |
showed that the net savings made to the Treasury by measures taken by | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
this Government since 2010, 80 6% will have come from women. Would he | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
agree that these proposals are no different from those in the junior | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
doctors dispute and bloodthirsty affect women rather than men. My | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
Honourable Friend makes a very important point, it is important to | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
remember that, and also important to remember how the prospect of paying | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
off over ?100,000 of debt affects the calculation for a student | :04:56. | :05:05. | |
studying a second time to become mental health nurse. It is important | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
to consider how lone parent thinking of becoming midwife will consider | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
?59,000 of repayments when considering the fact future for | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
their family. That is the latest estimate of debt. It is important to | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
consider how a nursing student taking part in a 48 week extended | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
course is expected to find part-time work to make his or her studies by a | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
bull. Not only is the Government's evidence based desperately weak but | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
research by the Higher Education Funding Council for England says | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
poorer students, lone parents and BME students, the demographic of | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
many of those attracted to nursing, are disproportionately dissuaded | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
from applying to university by the prospect of large amounts of debt. | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
So this policy fails on two fronts. The refusal to engage with experts | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
in the field have led to a misguided policy which privileges health care | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
education for those who can afford it and four decades of debt. It | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
fails to ensure fair and equal access to health care education. | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
Secondly there is a real danger that this policy will fail to achieve its | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
own name of attracting future students. Everyone in health who | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
knows about these issues are shortage of nurses, midwives and | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
other health professionals, but moving the of payment onto students | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
widens the mistake. Deterring potential candidates by imposing | :06:31. | :06:39. | |
debt on graduates is not the answer. I want to join the call from the | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
Royal colleges of nursing and midwifery to ask the Government to | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
rethink and scrap these proposals. We need a thorough and inclusive | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
consultation process where those with experience of the system can | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
contribute properly and I join their call for the Government to ensure | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
that future students at Manchester University's School of nursing, | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
midwifery and social work are not forced to bear the burden of a | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
Government unwilling to listen. The Royal College of Nursing has said | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
the Government has not thought had enough about the risks. It is time | :07:13. | :07:21. | |
to do so. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been a pleasure to follow on | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
from the Honourable manner but for Manchester Withington. I would like | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
to congratulate the spokesman for securing this debate because this | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
debate does highlight what the pressures within the NHS and what we | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
are currently facing. Currently, we start with 20,000 nurses. We lose | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
3000 year. Maybe that is where the migration committee report gets its | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
figures from, where we have to plug 3000. The Government say we need | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
10,000 new nurses per year. Those figures are saying in stark terms | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
that there is a loss percentage so maybe we can work out the costs of | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
how many people drop out and how much it costs, and may we will can | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
use that money within the NHS to put back into an apprenticeship scheme | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
which is what the Government is proposing. The magic 3000 figure, it | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
seems, actually does play into what the governments are thinking of in | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
their respective creating of 10,000 -- in respect of creating 10,000 new | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
nurses. The opposition say we have lost 2400 nurses in the last | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Government. The last Government said we had 3000 more nurses. Which one | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
is correct? The truth is, both of them, it depends when you measure | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
them. If you measure from election to election, meaning from May 2010 | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
to May 2014, the Prime Minister was correct saying we have created 3000 | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
new nurses. We also take into consideration health visitors, | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
midwives and physiotherapists to an extent. The opposition say it is | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
2400 from September to the following September, of 2014, there is a drop. | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
Because believe it or not, recruitment and loss is seasonal. So | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
we have to be grown up and address these concerns. How do we do this? | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
Quite simply by reforming. We must open up from having fixed bursaries | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
where we are attracting in the region of 20,000 nurses a year and | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
losing 3000. You know, in the last Government, the opposition said, and | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
I am saying this with respect to the opposition, at the time, bringing in | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
reforms at that time in education would attract people from all | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
backgrounds, I wouldn't say disadvantaged, all backgrounds, to | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
go to university. I didn't go to university but my son is that | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
University, the first Member of my family ever to go to university, and | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
that isn't aspiration and an accolade. But here we are five years | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
down the line, we have 10,150 new places since 2010 of students going | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
to university, so we must actually open up that philosophy to the NHS. | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
Because what is the difference between a student nurse starting on | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
?21,000 or thereabouts a year and a junior doctors starting at ?26,000 a | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
year? Nurses are as valued as doctors in the NHS. I certainly feel | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
that. So why do some have bursaries yet we are not attracting the | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
numbers, and some don't? My own trust, which is in difficulty at | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
this time, but has overcome a lot of the difficulties and his | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
Administration, and it is an accolade to them to do that, have | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
been abroad recruiting nurses, where we could get nurses by opening up | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
the bursary scheme... Taking away the bursary scheme and opening up to | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
academia and trying to get more people within the system with | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
apprenticeships. We could do that and plug the gap with home-grown | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
skills and jobs here. So in the short time I have, Madam Deputy | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
Speaker, to sum up, I think reforming will actually plug the gap | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
in the skills shortage we need. I also think it will be fair to bring | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
in nurses in line with doctors in the professional. -- in the | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
profession. I also think people who want to get correctly accredited | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
academia will see that as a good starting plate for the career that | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
starts off at ?21,000. In all honesty the career doesn't start at | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
21000 and then there, it goes up the pay scale like doctors do. So in | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
conclusion, thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
all colleagues in the House for this debate, because I do think it is | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
measured, and I do think it is something we have two address on all | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
sides of the House. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I begin by | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
thanking the Shadow Health Secretary and shadow health team for securing | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
this important debate this afternoon to give us the opportunity to | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
effectively debate early day motion 1081, set to become the most popular | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
early day motion in this session of Parliament, signed by members from | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
across this House including those on the Government benches, because of | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
the grave concerns people have about the potential consequences of the | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
decision the Government proposes to take around the NHS bursary. As I | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
have argued previously in the adjournment debate we had on the | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
floor of this House and also in Westminster Hall, we are debating | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
this afternoon the biggest shake-up in the funding of nursing, midwifery | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
and abide -- Allied health object since 1968, announced will without | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
adequate evidence and planning as part of the Chancellor's budget | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
rather than a carefully thought through policy proposal, which is | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
why the Government is now in a position of only consulting people | :13:14. | :13:22. | |
with a technical consultation rather than all stakeholders on the | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
principle of this policy as they really ought to have done. Although | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
myself and others will refer to student nurses and midwives, as | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
shorthand it is important to acknowledge, as my Honourable Friend | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
the Shadow Health Secretary did, this will affect students of all | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
sorts of subjects that trained vital workers in a range of aspects of the | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
NHS, for physiotherapists, occupational therapist, dieticians, | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
radiographers, paramedics and others. That is why over 100 Right | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
Honourable members signed the early day motion on thousands of members | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
of the public have spoken out through the online petition. At | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
present nursing, midwifery and allied health subjects are not | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
subject to Jewish and fees, and students on those courses receive a | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
non-means tested grant of up to ?1000 a year -- subjected tuition | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
fees. As well as a bursary of up to 3900 pounds year, recognising they | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
have to work considerably long hours in the courses, not just in | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
libraries and lecture theatres but also on clinical practice as part of | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
the full 24-hour care cycle. It is estimated student nurses work at | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
least 2300 hours across the course of their degree. I am not sure many | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
of this in this House with degrees could claim to have put in so many | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
hours when we were at university and I think we should recognise the | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
effort they need to make to secure their qualifications. Those who do | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
work outside course hours to fund their degrees can end up working up | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
to 60 hours as a result, and we should not expect them to do so, | :15:00. | :15:09. | |
because of the deleterious impact it can have not just on their academic | :15:10. | :15:11. | |
studies but their approach to clinical practice. Under the | :15:12. | :15:13. | |
proposals brought forward by the Government the changes will mean | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
students of the subjects will be charged tuition fees in excess of | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
?9,000 a year, and as a result will be burdened with ?51,600 worth of | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
debt. They will begin paying this back as soon as they graduate which | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
means nurses will take on average pay cut of ?900 year. If that were | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
not unacceptable in and of itself, I think the militias there should also | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
explain when he winds up -- I think the Minister should explain, how it | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
is fair that there is no recognition under the proposals in the student | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
support system of the unique demands placed on these students. As a | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
result of the NHS bursary as it exists at present alongside the | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
tuition fee remission the students effectively received there is at | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
least a recognition that for many of these students it is difficult if | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
not impossible to take on the sorts of part-time work I did when I | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
studied either for my A-levels or at university. For these students it is | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
not possible to fund their degrees in this way, and there should be a | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
recognition in the student support system that it is more expensive to | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
study on these subjects, that the opportunities to earn extra income | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
on top of your courses are not as readily available for these students | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
as other students. It is a real mistake for the Government not to | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
recognise that. I will give way to the chair of the select committee. | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
Would he also accept that there is a serious problem with | :16:46. | :17:01. | |
hardship on the existing bursaries particularly as the amount drops in | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
the final year? I am grateful for that intervention. I will thank some | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
of the people who have been in touch, but in particular I will | :17:08. | :17:09. | |
never forget the first conversation I had with a student nurse in my | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
constituency who sat with me a members area and cried because under | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
the existing system she struggled to meet the costs of training to be a | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
nurse, even with NHS bursary currently provided. Of course I want | :17:18. | :17:19. | |
the student support system to be more generous for these students, | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
because other students like her have dreams of being a student nurse, and | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
it is not right that financial support, or lack thereof, should be | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
a barrier to them taking on this valuable location that does so much | :17:34. | :17:39. | |
for so many. The Government's policy is riddled with risk. Earlier, the | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
Minister challenged my assertions on mature student numbers. It is a fact | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
that in the wake of the introduction of the coalition's reforms to higher | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
education, there was a fall in part-time mature numbers. The | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
Minister claimed there were record numbers of missed your applicants to | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
higher education. I can only assume he was referring to last year's | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
figures. We should not identify a trend with one-year's figures not | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
least because new figures for the 2016 application cycle published on | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
the fourth of her brew 2016 shows an increasing 18-year-old applicants | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
but a fall for most other older age-group categories. I am more than | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
happy to look at the data and have an evidence -based debate, but let's | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
have an evidence -based debate and not take one years worth of figures | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
and claims there is some sort of trend. | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
The Blues are the figures you display to house a very welcome | :18:36. | :18:42. | |
indeed but they are different from the front bench of your opposition | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
spokesman's figures. I don't think I disagree at all with the figures put | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
forward by my honourable friend the Shadow Health Secretary. This is the | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
problem with lies, damn lies and statistics. We must look at all the | :19:00. | :19:06. | |
data before we identify trends. The minister singled out one year of | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
application data. It is possible that numbers are around nursing, | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
midwifery, allied health subjects account for a significant amount. | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
The minister is talking about general applications for all | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
subjects and I think we should probably ask the library to do some | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
work so we can get to the bottom of the claims and counterclaims. | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
Nonetheless I think most people around the higher education debate | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
acknowledge there are still serious challenges in terms of access to | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
higher education for part-time and mature applicants in light of the | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
coalition reforms and that is one reason why the Government should | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
tread carefully in this area. There is a shortage in the number of | :19:49. | :19:56. | |
nurses we need. In 2011-12 the number of training places was cut to | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
the lowest level since the 90s. Unison, which I am proud to be a | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
member of, conducted a survey that found that two thirds of nurses | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
believe staffing levels were worse than previously and 63% fuel the | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
numbers are inadequate to provide a safe degree of support. But also | :20:14. | :20:20. | |
reflects feedback from NHS staff in my own constituency and that is the | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
thing -- something the Government should take seriously. I have met | :20:26. | :20:33. | |
many nurses, midwives are professionals and students in health | :20:34. | :20:44. | |
cert... -- health subjects. I am grateful for the research | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
undertaken. A bit like to thank Unison, the Royal College of | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
Nursing, Midwives, speech and language therapists. I would like to | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
pay tribute to the outgoing president, Megan Duff, for the | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
effective way she represented students during her term. These | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
reforms to reflect a big risk to nursing numbers. I think at the very | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
least this afternoon the minister should commit that before these | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
reforms are implemented there will be a further full debate on the | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
floor of this House and a vote of both this House and the other place | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
before such a radical change to the funding of these crucial subjects is | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
changed in the way the Government seeks to take forward. There is | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
considerable concern and ministers shouldn't downplay this and I hope | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
you will at least commits to a full vote in this House before it goes | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
ahead. It is a pleasure to follow from the member for Ilford North who | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
made a thoughtful speech and highlighted an important point about | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
the different study load of those training to be nurses compared with | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
some of us at university. I don't think that invalidates the | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
Government's response but I think it is important to take it into | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
account. Why can't I congratulated opposition spokesman for calling | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
this debate, it has been very important, and I congratulate the | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
Minister for a characteristically thoughtful, reasonable and lucid | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
response to it. I can't help observing that actually this debate | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
does demonstrate the value of having people in this House who come from | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
genuine professions rather than having reached year purely as a | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
result of being political professionals, and there have been | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
considerable input from those who have been in the NHS. Although it is | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
an opposition debate, there are points we can all agree on. We | :22:45. | :22:52. | |
should agree we need to recruit, retain and train enough nurses to | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
staff our health service to meet the needs of the British people. | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
Secondly, we can agree it is wrong, morally wrong, to rely on recruiting | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
nurses from poorer countries who have had to bear the cost of their | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
training to meet our failure to train enough nurses ourselves and | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
thirdly we should not to be turning away British people who want to | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
train as nurses when we need more nurses ourselves. Surely we can all | :23:27. | :23:35. | |
agree on those points. We can debate how best to refinance the | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
recruitment, retention and motivation of sufficient nurses in | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
this country but we should all agree that is the objective my initial -- | :23:43. | :23:52. | |
objective. My initial interest resulted in my first career and I | :23:53. | :24:02. | |
discovered that we were denuding Africa of nurses. We had recruited | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
more than one in eight of all the nurses in sub-Saharan Africa and | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
brought them to this country. That could not be right. I lobbied | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
against it and the then Prime Minister promised there would be no | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
active recruitment from Africa although seven years later I | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
discovered that we had recruited another 60,000 and four continuing | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
to recruit several thousand per year, but we were promised it would | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
cease. I blame myself that it took so long to realise the problem did | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
not lie in recruiting in Africa and other places but our failure to | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
train enough nurses of our own. I didn't ask why we were not doing so | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
until I was talking to my local NHS who told me that they were | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
recruiting abroad. Mainly in southern Europe but also in Asia. | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
They were doing so despite the fact they preferred to recruit and | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
employing nurses from the University of Hertfordshire, which they | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
described as excellent, well trained and in every way desirable. I asked | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
them why they did not recruit more and they said they could not recruit | :25:23. | :25:28. | |
enough even if the recruited the next several years' worth. That's | :25:29. | :25:36. | |
why they were recruiting abroad. I am thankful to the honourable member | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
for giving way. Would he agree that it is ironic that through our | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
international aid programmes we are actually assisting developing | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
countries to pay for training placements in clinical studies was | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
such as hospitals abroad and yet we do not afford the same rights to our | :25:54. | :26:01. | |
NHS trainees here? It is certainly bizarre that we pay African | :26:02. | :26:08. | |
countries to train nurses, and then probably recruit them to come here. | :26:09. | :26:16. | |
It is bizarre. I don't mind the manner in which their training is | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
financed. The problem was they couldn't get enough nurses from the | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
University of Hertfordshire. I spoke to the university who said it wasn't | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
because they had any lack of applicants for places, they turned | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
away three quarters of applicants to their highly regarded nursing | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
courses, but they were not allowed to expand. It had taken me decades | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
to realise we had a system which limited the number of people we were | :26:43. | :26:51. | |
recruiting. I lobbied the Government and it may be because of my lobbying | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
we now have this proposal for bursaries although I suspect they | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
reached the decision on the basis of their own evidence. The sad truth is | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
that successive ministers of all parties, and we should recognise | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
this, have bucked the question of how do we train enough people here. | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
The tents to be the time horizon of the time it takes to train in as so | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
why put up with perverting the resources into training wind output | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
is going to come when you cease to be Minister of health. I'm glad that | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
this Minister of health, sector of state and fellow ministers have | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
addressed the question. We should recognise it is symptomatic of a | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
wider problem across British business in both the private and | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
public sector that we have a failure -- a culture which does not put | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
enough emphasis on training. It is bizarre that in the universities we | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
allow on limited numbers of people to study art history, media studies, | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
but we restricted the number of people who can train to the nurses | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
when we know we have a desperate need for more. I am agnostic about | :28:07. | :28:13. | |
the best way to finance the training of more nursing recruits. If nurses | :28:14. | :28:22. | |
brother extra costs it will have to be reflected in their remuneration. | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
The minister told us they will be no worse off so I assume therefore the | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
assumption as they will not have to repay much of their loans. This is | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
somewhat of an artificial future of the public finance rules but it is a | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
future and may be the only way of not borrowing the money from the | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
public ourselves is that the nurses borrow and we write off their loans. | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
In the long run we have to pay nurses enough to recruit, retain and | :28:52. | :29:00. | |
motivate them whatever the financial system, and probably the end of | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
bursaries and placement by loans is the only options. One other issue we | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
should look at is that I think there are 200,000 trained nurses in this | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
country who maintain themselves on the register at their own expense | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
and are not currently working in the NHS or elsewhere but who have taken | :29:17. | :29:22. | |
time off to raise a family and I thinking perhaps some of coming | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
back. We must be much more flexible and creative in providing patterns | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
of work which meet their family needs to bring back those trained | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
and valuable and caring and experienced people into the health | :29:36. | :29:38. | |
service and that will help meet the needs of the health service, as the | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
Government is trying to do sensibly and wisely in the measures it has | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
brought before us to replace bursaries with loans. I'm grateful | :29:48. | :29:56. | |
for the opportunity to contribute to today's important debate. It is the | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
second time I have raised concerns about the Government's plans to | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
scrap NHS bursaries in favour of loans for nursing, midwifery and | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
Allied health profession students. Following on from a debate in | :30:16. | :30:24. | |
January I do not propose to reiterate my previous arguments, | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
instead I just intend to make a feud brief observations about the | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
Government's proposals. They have been roundly condemned, as it has | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
been said by students, trade unions and professional bodies alike, and | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
described by one of these, the Royal College of Nursing, as high risk. To | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
my mind, these proposals are high risk because they take a significant | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
gamble with the future sustainability of the NHS workforce. | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
There are several reasons for this. First they have the potential to | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
deter many committed and talented prospective students from pursuing | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
nursing, midwifery and Allied health professions degrees altogether due | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
primarily to concerns over the huge level of debt associated with the | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
change to a loans based system. This is particularly true for more debt | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
averse mid-tier students who may have young families -- mature | :31:20. | :31:31. | |
students. There is also a considerable problem with | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
recruitment and retention of staff in the NHS and the Government's | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
plans are likely to exacerbate the problem further and impact adversely | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
on the future security of NHS workforce, at a time when we have an | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
ageing and increasing population which will necessitate more front | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
line health care professionals going forward. Second, the proposal is to | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
not take into consideration the fact that nursing, midwifery and Allied | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
health profession courses are very different to most other arts and | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
science degrees. These courses are much longer with shorter holidays | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
and often fewer opportunities for students to supplement their income. | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
As they are required to spend a significant amount of their time | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
working with patients in clinical practice with a requirement to work | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
regular and longer evening and weekend shifts as standard. The | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
Government proposals will effectively mean these students, the | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
individuals who keep our awards running and are involved in | :32:34. | :32:35. | |
life-and-death decisions on a daily basis, are forced to pay for the | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
privilege of undertaking often physically and emotionally demanding | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
work in the NHS. Third, they seek to replace the bursary system that has | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
for some considerable time fostered strong and enduring links between | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
health care students and the NHS that begins right from the start of | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
the course. I severing that link, as the Government propose to do, they | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
risk reducing the student loyalty to and the attractiveness of the NHS as | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
a potential future employer. These are a few of the reasons why the | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
Government's plans are high risk. There are many more, some of which | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
have been eloquently articulated by others in the House today. I | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
conclude by urging ministers to drop their proposals and instead work | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
with trade unions, professional bodies and, most importantly, those | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
dedicated individuals who work within the NHS, nurses, midwives, | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
physiotherapists, speech and language therapists, occupational | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
therapists, dieticians, radiographers, chiropodists and | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
podiatrists, to find a fairer and more sustainable and effective | :33:49. | :33:55. | |
funding solution. Can I start by declaring my interest is a member of | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
a health care profession allied to nursing? | :34:00. | :34:17. | |
Tens of thousands of people every year. Despite the comments made by | :34:18. | :34:27. | |
some Honourable members, these are good high-quality applicants. I | :34:28. | :34:35. | |
looked up the entry requirements for the three universities accepting | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
candidates onto general nursing degree courses for adults in the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
South West at Bournemouth, the University of the West of England | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
and Plymouth. The typical offer for those schools is 300 UCAS points, | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
that is three B grades at A-level. So it is not, as some on Honourable | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
members suggested is the case, that there is a shortage of academically | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
well-qualified, qualified in every way, applicants. There are many | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
young women who wish to study nursing through our being turned | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
away. It is a double tragedy, isn't it? We have a gross shortage of | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
nurses in this country. Nothing I have heard from the benches opposite | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
gives me any confidence that they have any sort of plan as to how we | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
had to satisfy those two imperatives of allowing those who want to study | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
nursing to do so and to plug up the shortage we have in the National | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
Health Service. At the moment we are only able to accommodate because | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
nurses from overseas are prepared to come here. Nurses very often from | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
countries that can scarce do without them. Historically, of course, | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
student nurses have been an intrinsic part of the NHS workforce. | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
My Honourable Friend, the Member from top -- for Totnes, will | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
remember, as do I, that they were essential to the working of all | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
would. Some of the points by members opposite revolve around this point. | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
The question is whether in this day and age we are still heavily reliant | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
upon that workforce for proper functioning of hospital wards | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
because if that is the case, there is a good case to be made for that | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
in the bursary arrangements we make for student nurses because it is | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
simply not right to expect them to do service work and for there not to | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
be compensated in some way for doing that. I hope as part of that | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
consultation that strand of thought will be taken up. The fact remains | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
that as far as project 2000 in the 1990s, the nursing profession itself | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
decided it would move away from a hospital based training structure to | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
one based around universities. This was driven by the profession itself. | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
I think the debate we are having today is part of the continuum of | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
that process, the process by which nurses become graduates, in exactly | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
the same way as any other graduate preparing, for example, to teach in | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
schools. I think it is very potent that when we designed the finances | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
around student nurses, we of course understand the difference between a | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
nursing degree course and a normal, as it were, degree course, but also | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
acts that this is a graduate profession and that it is not right, | :37:43. | :37:51. | |
as the Honourable Lady "Trying to do, to distinguish between graduates | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
and say one is more worthy than another. She may have a view of the | :37:54. | :38:07. | |
graduates. I think we start on a difficult path if we try to hold up | :38:08. | :38:18. | |
one graduate as superior to others. That is difficult to sustain. I | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
support the notion of a nursing associate. I am old enough to | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
remember is to enrolled nurses, who had not satisfied the entry criteria | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
for a course leading to state registration but wanted to be | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
members of a caring occupation. Nursing associates will not be as | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
RNs revisited because we now live in a different age. But there is surely | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
a place within our NHS for a group of people who may not want the | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
academic rigour that goes with a nursing degree or at that stage in | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
their lives be fitted for it, but nevertheless, want to nurse, to | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
enter a plea hands-on caring occupation. This is an important | :39:03. | :39:13. | |
difference, where sen suffered so badly. There must be sufficiently | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
impervious system to allow people, if they have the skill set, to be | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
able to enter a nursing stream. It was a tragedy that so many qualified | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
as RNs were not able to develop their careers. I hope as we design | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
the future for nursing we keep that in mind. A few Honourable members | :39:41. | :39:50. | |
have made comments on planning. It has been abysmal. We need to do | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
better in the future. For example we need to avoid unintentional | :39:57. | :40:06. | |
consequences. We need to ensure the ?21,000 threshold does not mean | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
people are inclined to avoid it by working part-time where they might | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
otherwise work more full-time hours. That would be an overall this | :40:17. | :40:24. | |
service to the workforce. We need to understand that the need to create | :40:25. | :40:31. | |
10,000 places must not be denuded by offering these places to applicants | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
from overseas because that would then not be in the interest of our | :40:35. | :40:43. | |
NHS. We need to understand that nursing graduates may be tempted to | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
migrate as a result of this introduction of fees. So I would ask | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
the Minister in his consultation to think of all the unintended | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
consequences which may develop this general historical tradition in this | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
country that we have of doing health workforce planning so abysmally | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
badly. It is a pleasure to follow the thoughtful contribution from the | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
Member for South West Wiltshire who draws attention to workforce | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
planning which is clearly very challenging for those doing it or | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
not doing it. The recent inspection of North Lincolnshire hospital trust | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
exposed issues of real concern around staffing levels. The | :41:28. | :41:35. | |
challenges of securing a sufficient nurses and other medical staff has | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
become a constant theme of my conversations with the trust since | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
2010. Attracting, securing and retaining staff is a consistent | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
challenge, and the Scunthorpe Hospital is no different to many | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
other hospitals around the country. The more I have got involved in it, | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
the more I have thought that locally designed solutions would have a role | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
in this, and talking to health education in England, it is | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
disappointing that they cannot do more to support health care | :42:11. | :42:12. | |
assistants, for instance, growing into nurses within the local patch, | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
because they are clearly a potential resource. So there are lots of | :42:19. | :42:24. | |
issues about recruiting, training and retaining, as the Member for | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
Hitchin Harpenden said, and making sure, as the Member for Morecambe | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
and loons Dale said, if we lose 4000 nurses year, how do we keep them. | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
That is a big issue as well as how we recruit and retain them. In | :42:40. | :42:49. | |
Scunthorpe... I give way. Just to clarify, we are not losing 3000 | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
nurses a year, we are losing 3000 applicants to be nurses per year. I | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
thank the Honourable Member for his intervention but there are many | :42:59. | :43:00. | |
members being lost -- nurses being lost to the system as well which is | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
a clear issue and one in which his comments highlighted. In essence in | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
Scunthorpe we are having to recruit from other areas, Spain and Portugal | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
and elsewhere in the world, and ours has been pointed out, though helping | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
and supporting us, this has impacts on those areas of the globe where | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
those nurses are being recruited from. I would like to quote from a | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
young student nurse who is a constituent, her words, because in | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
some way they capture the comments people are making to us from around | :43:32. | :43:39. | |
the country. Katie May Taylor says, I am a first-year student nurse and | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
when I start placement for three months I will just about be able to | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
govern my travel on top of rent and food. When you see the hours we have | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
to complete and have a fraction of the summer holidays you have to | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
understand why the proposed cuts to the bursary and overall funding to | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
the NHS isn't beneficial. I appreciate to other students getting | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
a monthly bursary must seem a luxury but every penny I get goes towards | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
my rent. It is not pocket money. We are seeing reports that parents are | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
already telling students not to go into nursing and future nurses are | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
being scared out of applying to university. This is deeply | :44:14. | :44:17. | |
saddening. It is such a wonderful course to be a part of Hundal nurses | :44:18. | :44:27. | |
are vital in the care of society's health and maintenance of our NHS. | :44:28. | :44:29. | |
If the bursary is scrapped many student nurses will end up working | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
70 plus hours a week in placements, study time and jobs. Will a student | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
nurse working that many hours make for safe patient care?" Capture very | :44:37. | :44:42. | |
effectively the concerns we have. The Government I think is taking a | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
huge gamble with the NHS workforce and patient safety. There is already | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
a nurse shortage in the NHS and scrapping Bursaries risks making | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
staff recruitment and retention even harder. Student nurses are not like | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
other students. They are required to work in clinical practice throughout | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
their degrees and deserve to be treated differently. The Member | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
force of that -- South West Wiltshire was right in saying it is | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
worth looking at how much they are an intrinsic part of the NHS and if | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
they are that needs to be recognised in this consultation so there are | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
given credit for that and remunerated effectively. The Member | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
for it all had North is right to emphasise that this is the unique | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
position of student nurses. The longer placements make it harder for | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
nurses to get part-time jobs. NHS students are more likely to be | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
women, more likely to come from BME backgrounds are more likely to be | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
mature students. Many nursing students have already completed 1 | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
degrees and turned to nursing in their late 20s or early 30s. The | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
average age of the student nurses 28 and many have family or caring | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
commitments. If we look at what has been pointed out in terms of the | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
changes to the higher education funding system in 2012, it has been | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
less favourably received by mature and part-time students. These groups | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
make up a much greater proportion of the nursing, midwifery and allied | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
health student body, so it is worth looking at that part of the evidence | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
as well. Analysis by London Economics estimated that the switch | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
will have a significant negative, -5%, impact on participation at | :46:22. | :46:32. | |
least initially, especially of one person mind the competition of the | :46:33. | :46:34. | |
student health cohort. The Government 's insistence that loans | :46:35. | :46:36. | |
will be repaid at the same time will require repayment rate of 15% above | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
earnings for those students accessing undergraduate and | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
postgraduate loans. This will be in additional to any tax, national | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
insurance and pension contributions due. It is questionable the level of | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
savings to the taxpayer. The Minister wasn't clear on that when I | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
pressed him in his opening remarks. The Department of Health estimates | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
taxpayers will be better off as a result of this switch but it is a | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
short-term calculation. It is less likely these students will repay | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
their loans as graduates in the 30 year repayment period than the | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
general higher education cohort. This is a switching responsibility | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
for funding of the education of health workers from the state to the | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
workforce itself primarily designed to reduce the budget in the | :47:22. | :47:31. | |
Department of Health. We need to know more about what estimate the | :47:32. | :47:33. | |
Government has made of the percentage of second-degree student | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
loans written off after a 30 year period. We need have an estimate for | :47:37. | :47:38. | |
how much the taxpayer will be better off. We need these figures. All the | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
key stakeholders have the same concern, whether the Royal College | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
of midwives, nursing, podiatry, speech and language therapists, even | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
the NHS pay review body has said the removal of the incentive of | :47:55. | :47:56. | |
bursaries could have an unsettling effect on the number and quality of | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
applications for missing training in the early years. There are concerns | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
by all the people closest to what is on. I hope the... The Minister is a | :48:07. | :48:14. | |
good minister, and I hope you will listen and engage with all these | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
bodies who know what they are talking about, they are not making | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
it up, these concerns are real and genuine. The Royal College of | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
Nursing is calling on the Government to work with all stakeholders to | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
create a model of student funding that encourages people to join the | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
profession and recognises the unique aspects of a nursing degree course. | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
I hope the Government will take the opportunity of the strong initiative | :48:40. | :48:45. | |
from the Shadow Health Secretary to work together to come up with a | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
solution that will allow us not only to recruit and retain but also to | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
retain all these professionals into the future. | :48:54. | :49:05. | |
I am grateful for you calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to follow | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
the honourable gentleman of Scunthorpe. He was speaks with | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
credibility and experience. I am more than happy to acknowledge there | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
are many colleagues in the House today with more experience than I | :49:21. | :49:34. | |
have of working in the NHS. My experiences as a customer or a | :49:35. | :49:36. | |
relative of someone who has been treated within the health service. I | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
have to say that, to date, my experience has been nothing but | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
positive. The treatment are NHS continues to deliver to our nation | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
is the best in the world and I think something that we on this side of | :49:53. | :50:00. | |
the House should be proud of. I think a good thing about -- the | :50:01. | :50:08. | |
opposition seemed to think they have a monopoly on caring about the NHS. | :50:09. | :50:18. | |
There are people on our side who care deeply about it. Every Labour | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
Party leader since the Second World War has said we have 24 hours to | :50:24. | :50:29. | |
save the NHS before the tap Tories come into government and they repeat | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
that every single time. I think the truth is when you look at the facts, | :50:34. | :50:40. | |
in 2010 at the general election the Prime Minister was only party leader | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
who entered the election saying would protect the NHS budget when | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
others didn't. In 2015, the Prime Minister was the only party leader | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
that committed to the extra 8 billion think it was at the time | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
support funding for the NHS when other opposition parties would not | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
back that figure. Today, that figure is ?10 billion extra this party is | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
backing the NHS with and delivering services, an aspiration to deliver | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
seven days a week. So people like me who are using the NHS get that | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
service to a very high quality seven days a week. The only way we could | :51:24. | :51:36. | |
deliver the extra funding into the health services by having a credible | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
economic plan which stacks up to scrutiny and I think the British | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
public understand that and what it means to have a credible plan that | :51:47. | :51:48. | |
you can actually deliver when you get into government. There is a lot | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
we agree on. A number of colleagues have outlined where we agree and | :51:56. | :51:57. | |
nobody could deny there is a recognition within government and | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
the opposition that we need more nurses but I think the difference is | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
how we then deliver those extra nurses we require. How do we come up | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
with a credible plan that gives us the extra nurses we all recognise? | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
We have had lots of speeches from all around the chamber, recognising | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
the need to deliver extra nurses but I think it is only on this side | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
whether as a credible plan to actually make that happen. You | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
cannot hope it happens or just state it is going to happen without | :52:35. | :52:36. | |
stating where the extra money is going to come from because the | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
consequence of doing that is to actually withdraw cash from front | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
line services, from those existing doctors and nurses, operation | :52:46. | :52:53. | |
theatres and wards and put that into training if you are not doing that. | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
What I would say is clearly the first thing you should not do if you | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
are going to try to increase the number of nurses running into the | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
NHS is restricted the number you can train. It seems fundamentally | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
obvious to me that the way to lift the number of nurses within the NHS | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
is to lift that artificial cap which we seem to have been left with in | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
terms of the numbers that we are able to train and I would welcome | :53:22. | :53:27. | |
what the Government is doing in considering its options and | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
consulting on this and looking to make sure there is no artificial cap | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
so we can train as many people who have that inspiration to go into the | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
nursing profession. Once again, I want to reiterate my admiration for | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
those people who, clearly, if you leave school and full-time education | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
at school age, you do not enter nursing because you want to be rich, | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
you do it because you care and because you see it as a vocation. I | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
think we must support those people who have that calling, that | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
aspiration to want to care for others and wants to look after those | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
in society who find themselves ill and in need of support. We need to | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
make sure we find a system that allows them to aspire, whatever | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
their background, a system that gives them the ability to go through | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
the training and reached the point where they can follow that vocation. | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
The arguments deployed against what the Government is suggesting | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
appeared to be very similar to what we heard around student loans where | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
we were told that those from a deprived background would be put off | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
and those who came from more challenging areas would not be able | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
to find a way through the system to be able to follow that desire to | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
follow their vocation and I think we must reflect on what happened during | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
those changes to student loans and look at the evidence, and the | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
evidence is that those from challenging background who we were | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
told would not be able to do it, those numbers have gone up and the | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
opposite is true. We must find ourselves at the end of this process | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
with an NHS which can adapt and change goes there is enormous social | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
pressure, particularly as society gets older, the challenge between | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
adult social care and the NHS. We need an NHS able to adapt and change | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
does not win cash is short, we must spend that on front line services | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
on. To us and nurses and drugs that can improve the lives of those | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
people who need the support of the NHS, and I look forward to the | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
consultation. I'll note the team in the health department will -- I know | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
the team in the health Department will look at it. I hope we get to | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
the right place at the end of this with more nurses. I am pleased to | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
hear the member values NHS so highly but he might like to reflect on the | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
fact that the Coalition Government legislated to allow all NHS | :56:06. | :56:12. | |
hospitals to make up to 49% of their money out of private patients and | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
perhaps he will review his opinion of his own party's performance when | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
he starts to see the number of private patients in his own hospital | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
increase and the number of NHS patients decrease. The Royal College | :56:24. | :56:34. | |
of Nursing, and Midwives said abolishing bursaries will break the | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
link between NHS and trainee nurses and I share their concerns because | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
the link is a historic one and I believe the Government proposal is | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
part and parcel of wider changes this government is seeking to make | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
in the culture of the NHS, turning the emphasis away from training | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
people to be part of NHS family, a family in which they can work with | :56:53. | :56:55. | |
dedication throughout their working lives, to the provision of training | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
for individuals to work in a fragmented health marketplace. If | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
these plans go ahead, future nurses may no longer feel the same | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
obligation to work in the NHS and could be more inclined to work | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
abroad or in private hospitals to pay off their debts, and who could | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
blame them? They will have felt that the Government has left them and | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
deserted them. The minister could not tell us what the average | :57:20. | :57:26. | |
repayment would be. Let Unison give him the answer. They say debt | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
repayment will mean, in effect, a pay cut of over ?900 a year. The | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
question arises, will these changes that are people from training to be | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
nurses in the first place? The Royal College of Nursing and other bodies | :57:44. | :57:52. | |
thinks it will. The Government consultation document estimates a | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
trainee nurse taking out the maximum tuition and maintenance loans for | :57:58. | :57:59. | |
three years with graduate with debts of between ?47,712 and ?59,106. Who | :58:00. | :58:10. | |
would want to embark on a lifetime of caring for others with the level | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
of debt that size? This brings us to the concern that these measures will | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
lead to further shortages will stop we are all aware of the shortages in | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
our hospitals. The Coalition Government allowed the number of | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
training places to fall from over 20,000 to just 17,000 in 2011-12. | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
The lowest level since the 1990s. As a result, there were over 8000 fewer | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
nurses trained in 2010 - 15 Parliament compared to 2010-11 | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
levels. Nurse numbers have failed to keep pace with demand. According to | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
calculations, the rate of nurses per hundred thousand population has | :58:51. | :58:59. | |
fallen from 679 in 2000 and 92 665. There are concerns the removal of | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
NHS bursaries will only make matters worse, as has been mentioned by my | :59:04. | :59:11. | |
friend the member from Scunthorpe, their NHS independent review body | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
said their removal of the bursary would have on effect on the number | :59:14. | :59:24. | |
of places. The reduction in net pay will make a package... The Secretary | :59:25. | :59:37. | |
of State should focus on that. The Royal College of Nursing is | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
concerned there is also a risk the changes could result in an uneven | :59:41. | :59:42. | |
distribution of students across nursing specialities. Also | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
geographically across the UK. Currently, health education in | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
England commissions student places for four branches of nursing, adult, | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
children, learning is about these and mental health. Without workplace | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
planning centrally there could be insufficient numbers across these | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
branches as some may be more popular than others. There is no indication | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
whether there will be control over which sectors nurses trained for in | :00:09. | :00:16. | |
future or whether it will be dictated by, of course, the market. | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
It could lead to greater shortages than at present. Tuition is | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
currently paid for by health education England. Now students | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
under the current system have to pay tuition fees and they are not means | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
tested. They also receive ?1000 non-means tested grant year, pro | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
rata for part-time students. They also qualify for a maintenance grant | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
or bursary, means tested, where a term lasts longer than 30 weeks and | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
helps with placements. I feel this is the appropriate way to deliver | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
NHS nurse training. If we are to continue to have a state-run public | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
NHS free at the point of need we must continue to provide bursaries | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
for our NHS nurses. It is the least we owe them. If you ask any patient | :01:01. | :01:16. | |
about their experience in hospital, one thing they're sure to talk to | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
you about is nurses who looked after them. They are normally talking | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
about nurses and health care assistants, because patients don't | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
tend to differentiate. We note nurses have far more interaction | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
with patients and doctors so their quality and time is critical to | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
patient experience. It is also critical to their outcomes for | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
agents in hospitals. Good nursing can be the difference between life | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
and death. We have known that since Florence Nightingale. We were | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
reminded of that with the inquiry into Mid Staffordshire and the | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
France's report and from recent search into strokes outcomes or | :01:57. | :02:05. | |
anyone who has looked into Salford Royal and how it has such a good | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
reputation, and much of that is high standards of nursing. So, an | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
excellent NHS which I believe we wanted needs excellent nurses and | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
enough of them. This afternoon, people have spoken about how we need | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
more nurses in the order of maybe 10,000 - 20,000, the numbers range. | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
We also note we need a shift in their skills. We need more mental | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
health nurses. Right now there are not enough nurses in our system and | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
hospitals across the country have vacancies. They are using large | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
numbers of agency staff and international recruitment is very | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
important to many hospitals including those serving my | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
constituents in Kent. I am not confident that more of the same will | :02:59. | :03:08. | |
solve these problems. Nor was the nursing Department of a London | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
University I spoke to about this last year. They said they needed | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
more funding per nurse place to stop the recognised in asking for more | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
money for their nurses it could be taking money away from front-line | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
care in the NHS and that was not a good answer so they were very open | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
to a new funding model. Last summer, the Council of deans of health and | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
universities said the current funding system is no longer working | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
for either students or universities. Universities having to subsidise | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
cost of nursing degrees from other courses and NHS funded students | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
having less to live on than others even though they are often studying | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
longer degrees, more intense degrees with more hours. They are even less | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
able to do other work outside their qualification. We know we need more | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
nurses and their current funding system isn't working. | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
said on the question, then, at how we get more nurses, is the answer | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
better workforce planning? I remember hearing that in 2008-9 when | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
plans were being drawn up the Centre for workforce intelligence. That | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
would be the answer, lots of skills exploits doing fantastic modelling | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
into the future -- skills experts. I was sceptical than because look at | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
the history of the NHS and systems around the world that have | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
centralised planning for the health care workforce, it almost always is | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
wrong, you get periods of oversupply and undersupplied, right now we are | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
in a period of undersupplied with all the knock-on consequences. So | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
doing it better and having more experts sounds great in theory but | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
in practice I think we have seen it doesn't work. So much better answer | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
is to set universities free to offer more places for all those students | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
who want to study nursing, so all those students currently being | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
turned away -- turned away can study nursing, and I would like to see | :05:10. | :05:16. | |
more nursing applicants, particularly as universities do more | :05:17. | :05:18. | |
to make their courses more attractive and work more closely | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
with employers, as to what employers need, and to look at specialist | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
skills and expertise required within nursing, as I mentioned, to meet the | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
needs of the care system we have now and in future. But to do that we | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
must uncouple the funding of nurse training from the NHS. We have to | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
take away this constraint that every pound spent on training and NHS | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
nurse is a pound potentially taken away from funding front line care, | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
which puts such a premium on avoiding access of nurses. I think | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
this is very much the right direction of travel. I also think it | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
is very important to increase maintenance grants to nurses so they | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
are not struggling with their living support as they are at the moment, | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
but they should be more routes into nursing. The nurse associate role is | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
very welcome. An apprenticeship route so nurses can work and train | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
in parallel, which we know is very appealing to more mature students | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
who need an income and also want to be more hands-on during their | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
training and are less appealed to buy university environment. Having | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
worked for some time on the background of health care assistants | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
and wanting to see more recognition given to their role and | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
qualifications, I really recognise the opportunity for them to be | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
supported even more towards becoming qualified nurses. Another thing I | :06:47. | :06:54. | |
think is important is to have a greater investment in continuing | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
professional development for nurses. We know we need a more flexible | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
workforce that can adapt to the demands of the future. Yet one of | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
the things that is so often squeezed in times of financial pressure is | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
the investment in ongoing training and the time given to ongoing | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
training, so let's this is a -- use this as an opportunity to re-shift | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
that balance and re-purpose the workforce as needed to meet the | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
demands and needs of the system. I would also like more attention to be | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
given to the appeal of the Singh career and the experience of all | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
nurses in work -- of the nursing career. Nurses at the front line | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
have told me so many times, this weekend I will beyond my own. The | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
only permanent nurse in this ward. I will work alongside agency nurses | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
who don't know this ward, and it will make it a difficult weekend. We | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
need to put an end to that. The only way we can do that, alongside, of | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
course, the work going on to reduce agency staff, is to increase the | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
numbers of nurses trained to work in the NHS. I am out of time but just | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
to sum up, I think the direction of travel is right, but also let's make | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
sure we get the details right on how this is put into practice. I am | :08:15. | :08:23. | |
pleased to contribute to today's debate. I only hope my scratchy | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
throat will hold out. My apologies to colleagues. My contribution marks | :08:29. | :08:35. | |
the third occasion I have spoken on this issue and called on the | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
Government to keep the NHS bursary for students in England studying to | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
become the next generation of Nudd -- nurses, midwives and allied | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
health professionals. The bursary is essential to complete a nursing | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
degree. The Royal colleges say so, but perhaps more importantly my | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
sister says so. Luckily for student nurses in Scotland the SNP also says | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
so. I am aware that this debate has been about the removal of the | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
bursary to students in England but the SNP say they have a job in this | :09:08. | :09:14. | |
place fighting Tory austerity. The Scottish Government will continue to | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
supply it might provide bursaries and we want the same support for all | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
nursing students regardless of where they study. As well as receiving | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
representations from my sister and have also met nursing students based | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
at my local university, the University of the West of Scotland. | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
It helps train and educate 4000 nursing students, one of the largest | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
cohorts in Scotland. It does a fantastic job equipped in tomorrow | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
-- equipping tomorrow's workers with the skills they need. I want to | :09:45. | :09:54. | |
propose the question on this issue to the Chancellor -- I proposed. His | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
answer did not provide the commitment nursing students were | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
demanding but after a few months of contemplation I urged the Chancellor | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
to consider their plans to abandon the bursary. The Royal College of | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
Nursing, which comprises 30,000 members, have made representation to | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
the SNP outlining the opposition to the Government's plans. It is not | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
only nurses and students in England urging the Government to abandon | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
plans but the vast majority of medical professionals, and students | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
and workers in Scotland are also demanding the bursary packages | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
retained. It is important to understand why nursing students | :10:38. | :10:39. | |
receive a different funding settlement compared to other | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
students. I know only too well the long hours my sister studied at | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
University. Not all students work such long hours and nurses spent | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
time on the ward working with fully qualified nurses. I'd know how much | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
time they spend working and they also put through their paces on the | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
ward. Replacing the bursary with alone will effectively means | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
students are paying the Government for the privilege of working while | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
on placement. The majority of nursing students are older and | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
typically women, the average age being 29 years old. Many of these | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
will have caring responsibilities. In addition it is not uncommon for | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
them, despite the demands of the course, to also work part-time | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
alongside studies. It is only proper that they have a funding settlement | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
which meets their circumstances. As we have heard, Unison, the NUS, the | :11:39. | :11:47. | |
Royal College of midwives and others all state that this new system will | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
lead to students Achaemenid Singh ?51,000 of debt -- accumulating. | :11:51. | :12:01. | |
Let's be clear, the removal of the bursary will be detrimental to | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
people wanting to study. We should instead encourage people from all | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
backgrounds to consider a career in the NHS. This point was made by the | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
Royal College of midwives when they said the cuts are likely to deter | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
any potential student from entering the profession which is God not -- | :12:18. | :12:33. | |
not good news for the profession. The Chancellor and Health Secretary | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
claimed the current system is unaffordable. I disagree and would | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
encourage them to take guidance from the Scottish Government on how to | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
support the health workers of tomorrow. In contrast to the UK | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
Government desire to abolish bursaries, the Scottish Government | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
will provide for ?6,500 to students. The UK Government previously | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
operated a means tested system. The Scottish Government will continue to | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
offer it without means testing. Whereas the UK Government sanctions | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
charges of up to ?9,000 a year for university education, the Scottish | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
Government preserve the right of a free education. The UK Government | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
works against the health service and educational partners the Scottish | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Government works in partnership with them to improve education and health | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
services that exist in Scotland. There are 41% more qualified nurses | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
and midwives in Scotland than anywhere else in the UK but despite | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
this we have increased numbers of students by 5.6% in the next | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
academic year with a thousand extra nurses in training every year | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
compared to the previous. The Government needs to stop attacking | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
the health service and those who work in it. If the Prime Minister is | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
serious about one nation Government he needs to engage with the concerns | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
raised by nursing students and others across the and university | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
sector. -- health and university sector. By also congratulate the | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
Shadow health team on securing this debate. A few weeks ago I found | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
myself in a packed lecture theatre in Cambridge, invited there by a | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
student nurse, and the room was packed full of her colleagues. They | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
were angry, not for themselves, but for those who in years ahead should | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
follow in their footsteps, because they are convinced, absolutely sure, | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
but if the Government's changes go ahead, people like them will not do | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
as they have done, when the embarking on the training so | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
essential to the future of our NHS. They are rightly furious. There | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
seems to be a complete misunderstanding about how different | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
they are as a cohort from other students and how different their | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
courses are from other courses, a failure to understand how their | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
courses about being at work, sometimes as they explain to me | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
going way beyond the call of duty, being at work, not just on a course. | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
Their testimonies and those of others across the country speak | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
volumes, and I pay tribute to the Royal College of Nursing for putting | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
together hundreds of these stories. I will say in directly to the | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
Minister, what makes him so sure that he knows so much better than | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
all these people who are actually doing it and actually know and | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
understand the choices people in their situation are likely to make? | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
Before being elected, I work for Unison and met many student nurses. | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
The Government simply fails to understand the simple truth that | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
nursing, midwifery and allied health care students are not like other | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
students. One important fundamental difference lies in the requirement | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
health care students spend a significant proportion of their | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
studies on clinical placement. The RCN point out as others have done, | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
they are not like other students. 50% of their time is spent in | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
clinical practice working directly with patients and their families, | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
and they have a longer academic year. They must spend a minimum 2300 | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
hours on clinical placement during their studies, working, providing | :16:07. | :16:14. | |
care, making a vital conservation to the health service, also including | :16:15. | :16:16. | |
early shifts, night and weekend shifts. In practice the funding | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
changes will charge students to go to work and do a job desperately | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
needed. Furthermore it is clear these changes are being rushed | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
through without proper consideration of the consequences. The Government | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
says it will create 10,000 new nursing, midwifery and allied health | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
degree places which would be welcome if it happened, particularly when | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
agency staff are plugging the gap and draining NHS finances. It has | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
not been made clear that there are resources in place to support | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
students in clinical settings. Put simply, do the placements exist? The | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
concern is linked to a wider issue about the uncovering of education | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
commissioning and workforce planning. The potential consequences | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
of a disconnection between University recruitment and NHS | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
workforce planning must be addressed and I would welcome the Minister's | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
comments on the wrist this uncoupling poses on the NHS's | :17:06. | :17:13. | |
ability to be the best for planning workforce requirements. One of the | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
more interesting aspects of the Government's proposals is to | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
increase routes from nondegree courses. Does he agree with me that | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
the Government ought to tread carefully given the report in the | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
Lancet in February 20 14th that suggested across nine European | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
countries, every 10% increase and the number of bachelors degree | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
educated nurses is associated with a 7% decline in patient mortality. | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
Even on the more positive aspects of the Government proposals they ought | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
read more carefully. I hope this point is one the Minister will | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
address. There are other ways nursing and midwifery and allied | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
health students are different. They are | :17:56. | :18:08. | |
more likely to be older, to be women, to come from BME backgrounds, | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
to have children and already have a first degree, and the average age is | :18:13. | :18:14. | |
28. These characteristics matter because they increase the likelihood | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
that funding changes will be a disincentive to people taking | :18:18. | :18:18. | |
degrees. The Royal College of midwives point out that the removal | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
of bursaries mean women with children and those who have a first | :18:22. | :18:23. | |
degree will be hit particularly hard. Many already make up a large | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
proportion of our current midwifery student base. | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
It is hardly likely they will be enthusiastic about the prospect of | :18:37. | :18:45. | |
taking on an additional debt. The starting salary for nurses is only | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
?21,000 a year. Replacing NHS bursaries with loans will mean a pay | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
cut of over ?900 a year for a nurses, midwife or health | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
professional. We know that debt particularly deters poorer students, | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
those who are more likely to find interim nursing and midwifery. | :19:11. | :19:17. | |
People can best explain this and the Royal College of nurses has put this | :19:18. | :19:25. | |
together in a huge blue book. I really commend it to the Minister. | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
Let me conclude by returning to that room of students in Cambridge and | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
give some of those of voice. Sarah from Cambridge says, I would not | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
have survived without my bursary. A nurse's salary is poor and have debt | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
on top is terrible. Amanda says, I'm adult learner with a husband and two | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
children. I had my children young so was unable to fulfil a degree. If I | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
was to have debt at the end, it would not have been worth my while. | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
I fear it will put up adult learners entering into the degree programme | :20:00. | :20:07. | |
which will mean the NHS is losing out on valuable decent people who | :20:08. | :20:09. | |
would make fantastic nurses. And Maria says, we are in danger of | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
preventing mature students from entering training. This will mean | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
the NHS loses the chance of recruiting a great resource | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
potential nurses. Another Sarah says, I am really disappointed by | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
this change. Nursing is not like any other profession so should be | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
treated uniquely. It is tough being a nursing student and the proposed | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
bursary changes should be considered carefully to respect the work, | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
commitment and enthusiasm of student nurses. She puts it very well. | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
Perhaps if the government would listen to me, they will at least | :20:46. | :20:55. | |
listen to her. -- will not. It's been a very high quality debate | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
today and I do have sympathy for the Minister responding because we all | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
know that this policy was not devised in his department was was | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
put together somewhere in the Treasury borrowing the Chancellor's | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
?2 billion raid. It seems that this is a case of cut first and ask | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
questions later. I say that because in just two lines of the Autumn | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
Statement with no consultation or evidence, this government has | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
committed itself to a huge gamble in the future of the NHS workforce and | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
patient safety. We have had a comprehensive debate among pay | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
tribute to my honourable friend the leading this campaign and his record | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
in this area is unparalleled. He highlighted expertly the many | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
student nurses are innate different position to other students and the | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
concerns he and other members have about the effect these proposals | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
will have on future numbers. Other members contributed in a similar | :21:56. | :21:57. | |
vein including my honourable friend 's. The honourable member for | :21:58. | :22:05. | |
Scunthorpe pressed the Minister without reply about what estimate | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
has been made about the number of loans that will be off. I trust and | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
we hear the answer to that, the Minister will be able to fill us in | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
with details. We also heard from my honourable friend the Wirral West | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
who came to this place with a great reputation and spoke with great | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
authority. My honourable friend the member for Cambridge has spoken and | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
he asked a very pertinent question about the capacity of the health | :22:34. | :22:36. | |
service to take on these extra students. We also had an important | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
contribution from the chair of the health Select Committee and I hope | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
the Minister responds to the real concerns that she raised. Mr Deputy | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
Speaker, the government is presiding over the worst accident and | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
emergency figures since records began. There is a crisis and morale | :22:55. | :23:03. | |
against the workforce with a Secretary of State to belligerent to | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
listen. They have alienated generation of junior doctors and now | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
they risk doing the same that our future nurses and midwives. As well | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
as many other health professionals, why is this government looking to | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
and settled the huge section of our NHS workforce at a time when | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
goodwill is more important than ever? We have a number of concerns | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
with this policy, many of which have been by honourable members today, | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
and the government has yet to give any credible answer. Let us look at | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
the actual problem these proposals will address. But the black created | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
by the Chancellor but the shortage of nurses in NHS. This government is | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
entirely responsible for that shortage because it decided to | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
reduce nurse training places. If it had maintained level set by the last | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
Labour government, we would have had 8000 more nurses trained in the last | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
Parliament alone so when we hear about is agency costs and staffing | :24:02. | :24:09. | |
shortages, it's not the nurses, trusts, patients but this | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
government's mishandling of the NHS. This proposal will deliver 10,000 | :24:14. | :24:22. | |
more nurses, midwives and other health professionals at best. When | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
the government says this proposal could deliver that, they really are | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
looking at the glass half full. That figure of 10,000 extra comes with so | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
many caveats and warning that if it were a used car, I would not even | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
taken a test drive. The government's own assessment acknowledges there | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
could be adverse impacts on parents and carers and childcare costs could | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
have a significant influence on participation. It's worth picking up | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
a few quotes from the government's own document to get a flavour of | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
just how flaky this old proposal is. It says that example, the precise | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
impact is difficult to estimate with certainty. Behavioural change is | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
uncertain. There may be uncertainty over applications in the short term. | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
There is no robust set of information to make this assessment. | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
In other words, the government says they have done an assessment they | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
have no idea what the impact of the policy will be. If that doesn't | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
amount to a huge gamble, I don't know what does. But if the | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
government won't take heed of its own assessment, it might listen to | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
the Royal College of Nursing which is said there is a | :25:33. | :25:44. | |
risk of a concern than that. They are particularly concerned about the | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
impact on which all students and as we have heard during the debate, the | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
average age of a student nurses said it is 28. The changes will act as a | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
disincentive for some students like mature students or those from lower | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
income backgrounds. Research shows that nine out of ten student nurses | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
said they would not have gone into training if the new proposals have | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
been in place. That is a trivial number. Even if the numbers turn out | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
only be half that amount, the implications for the NHS would be | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
catastrophic, so where is the evidence to reassure us that won't | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
happen? There isn't any. The Minister knows he is not comparing | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
like with like and any evidence of the mature student experience does | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
not support his case. Higher education statistics say which all | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
students between 20112015, the number has fallen by 17%. There's | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
big play about what this policy means for all nurses. Due to the | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
decision of the government is freeze the student loan repayment | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
threshold, or future nurses are facing a real terms pay cut. | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
According to Unison, based upon current salaries, the average health | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
professional will lose ?900 a year to meet their debt repayments. Start | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
retention is a huge issue for all NHS staff. As the honourable member | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
rightly pointed out, the government's record and this is Paul | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
and sadly nurses with extra debt will only make the matter worse. I | :27:16. | :27:24. | |
didn't say it was poor at all. I pointed out we needed reform, which | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
is something we're here to today. I think we have had a very good | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
constructive debate today. I think the honourable member, if he is | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
stating facts, that says more about the fact the way they were presented | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
the government. Let's be clear. This is a debt that these nurses are | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
never likely to pay off. Nurses will graduate with debts of ?50 -- | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
60,000. The many mature students will find themselves with ?100,000 | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
worth of debt. Let's repeat that figure. Here we are as a country, | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
looking down the barrel of the policy that will sadly nurses with a | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
6-figure debt, not bankers, lawyers but people who will own a fraction | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
of that keeping the NHS going. We already have the highest level of | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
student debt in the English-speaking world which is not a record we | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
should be proud of in these proposals will only make matters | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
worse but it would be an error to put nurses in the same category as | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
other students. Not only are their courses longer each year, meaning | :28:36. | :28:37. | |
they have less opportunity than other students to work while they | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
study, they're also required to spend 50% of their time working in | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
clinical practice. This requires real commitment of 2300 hours at | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
least doing difficult jobs at anti-social times and now this | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
government is asking people to pay for the privilege of doing that. | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
This policy team is like some kind of perverse extension of workfare. | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
Last year, there were unfilled places in London. The government | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
needs to raise its game to improve retention levels among nurses. It | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
has been getting worse. We saw nearly 9% of nurses leave. Some may | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
have gone to work elsewhere in the NHS but many have left altogether so | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
surely sorting that out will be more effective to our problems than a | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
punt on a trusted future plan? There appears to be no dialogue with | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
providers who seem unaware of the oncoming rush. Each student nurses | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
to be clinically assessed by a registered nurse but there appears | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
to be no assessment made to take on these extra responsibilities. With | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
all these flaws, it's clear to see this policy was announced with no | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
consultation, no engagement with the sector and with no evidence basis. | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
With such a high degree of uncertainty, surely the sensible | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
thing would be to consult on the principle before embarking on the | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
policy. Not this government, it knows best, and I say that despite | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
the fact the government is not even seem to know what its own record is | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
in this area. When I asked the minister a simple question on how | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
many nurses are qualified in the last five years, I received the | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
following response: the Department does not hold information on the | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
number of nurses who qualified in the last five years. What an | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
absolute shambles! You would think with such a gap, the government | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
would have gone out of its way to undertake a full consultation and | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
seek evidence before announcing the policy, but no. The Royal College of | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
midwives, nursing, podiatry and speech and language therapists, all | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
respected institutions, not one of them was asked to formally input | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
into this policy before it was announced contrary to what the | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
minister said today. When he was asked who he did consult, he said, | :30:57. | :31:04. | |
there has been consultation with leading nursing professionals, not | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
the Royal colleges. I have asked the Minister to sell us exactly who he | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
did consult with and to publish a copy with the resource advice he | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
received in the library. Let us not pretend that now this consultation | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
has been published, it is meaningful on the principle or detail of the | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
proposals. It simply asks a few technical questions on how to | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
implement changes. You can have any colour you want as long as it is | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
black. It is frankly in a sop to the public, patience and profession. | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
This government's proposal should be withdrawn and they should commit to | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
a full consultation on how to support available student nurses, | :31:44. | :31:46. | |
how to increase the number of nurses in the NHS and how to improve | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
retention levels. I urge all members who care about the future of our | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
health service, who have concerns about what effect these proposals | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
will have you are not prepared to gamble recklessly with our nurses to | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
send a clear message to the government that it's time to think | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
again. I commend this motion to the House. Thank you. And you have been | :32:08. | :32:21. | |
where? Oh, sorry. It's not as good as real life and being on the floor | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
of the Chamber. Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for the | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
opportunity to respond to the debate and I thank the honourable lady for | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
raising this important question of the development of the expansion of | :32:38. | :32:38. | |
nurse Can I thank all the award has been a | :32:39. | :32:48. | |
very good debate and a good set of discussions? Informed on various | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
occasions by those who have close connections to the NHS. Either | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
personally or through family. I want to begin by paying tribute to all | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
those who are the subject of our debate. Those who work, or training | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
hospitals. Those with Philby posed that we have been talking about. Not | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
just the nurses and midwives but a number of colleagues have made the | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
civic reference to those in the Allied health profession. Diabetic | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
occupational therapy, prosthetics, physiotherapy, chiropody, radios | :33:20. | :33:28. | |
therapy -- regular therapy, dental therapy. These are all very | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
important component of the National health Service. All of us recognise | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
the importance of the work that is done in hospitals. We thank them for | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
the work that they do. This is not an unusual debate. The current | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
proposals to change something, the opposition react with horror. That | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
is the way it. Whether or not, they are given to good or bad, this is | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
the way in which it goes. There have been a bright young are doing, some | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
good, some less good, though. Essentially, whenever changes | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
proposed, there is a set of reaction. As far as the Brewers | :34:05. | :34:10. | |
reaction, I do say to the honourable lady, with the great sincerity, | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
please don't go down the class route. That was unnecessary. Picking | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
out what people may have heard as they were growing up in certain | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
places and graduating. I'm the son of a doctor and a teacher, public | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
health workers in my household. I think the shape and sensitise got a | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
public service and commitment was possibly shape there. I don't dig it | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
was any different for the honourable lady. I see no evidence from the | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
honourable lady of Liverpool that, in any way, though useful | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
conversations were, in any way shape or form will be because of a | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
commitment to mental health or anything else. To suggest that my | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
honourable friend may not have picked up the same sort of | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
information as you, and that may have impacted on his care and his | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
work as a health minister, I thought that was pretty low. The honourable | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
lady should not go down that road and not go down that road again. The | :35:07. | :35:16. | |
two main arguments presented against what we are trying to do today have | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
been deterrence. Or the fact that the odd occasions are somehow | :35:25. | :35:26. | |
unpalatable and people will not go into them. Deterrence. I am old | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
enough to be for the original debate about the introduction of student | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
fees and everyone at that time who protested against said no one would | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
ever go to university again, with pork backgrounds would never go to | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
university again. -- poor backgrounds. The same argument have | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
been proven false time and time again. What is not false the damage | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
done at the time of those debates in trying to | :35:52. | :35:51. | |
want to aspire to higher education want to dig themselves a different | :35:52. | :36:00. | |
direction that are somehow, it will be made impossible for them and they | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
will be unable to do so. They were wrong then. They are wrong now. But | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
what is unique about this has been mentioned several times during this | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
debate. Nurses using the bursary scheme enter as mature students | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
disproportionately, including three of my nieces who would not have gone | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
on to train as excellent nurses if they had not had the bursary | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
available to them. At the same time, the honourable lady would have heard | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
people speak about problems of hardship on bursary, from the | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
honourable gentleman from Ilford North to people on the side. People | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
want access to more funds. That may help the people the honourable lady | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
has just mentioned. The assumptions made that, because Asian one has | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
come in, because of the change, people just will not want to do so. | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
There is no evidence to suggest that that is correct. Using it as a scare | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
story is not helpful in terms of the recruitment they want to see. Yes. I | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
thank the Minister for giving way. Does he accept there is genuine | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
anxiety from the Royal colleges about the proposal? Will reconnect | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
to engaging as fully as possible without's that is a good question. | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
Yes. Of course. At a time of change, there is a degree of uncertainty. I | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
think my main point is, the way in which it has blown up yet again | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
unfamiliar ground, this sort of interaction about student loans will | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
deter people from going, it will disadvantage people from poorer | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
backgrounds, has been problem to be false. Of course, the concerns are | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
very much the matter of consultation. I would say, knowledge | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
into that, the consultation process is very wide and very genuine. He is | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
listening to ideas about 's operations and proposals. The | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
consultations are not complete. The scheme is not complete. He is | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
keeping a very close here on these consultations. There is a | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
recognition, of course, that there are different characteristics for | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
those who go into nursing and midwifery and allied health | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
professionals. That is why we want to make sure that there is an | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
appropriate support available. Student support regulations give | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
more support than the bursary. Secretary of State retains the power | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
to give discretionary funding in capital cases and it is open to | :38:34. | :38:44. | |
reform is reflecting that. I will in just a moment. Recognising our | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
position to say, as my honourable friend, the member for Totnes... | :38:49. | :38:58. | |
Sorry, for Faversham said, more of the same want to do the job. The | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
need for changes there. We need more nurses. We need more nurses | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
domestically trained and we are going to do something different. | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
Recognising what they might be in relation to change, that is why the | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
consultation is there. Unique characteristics are reflected. That | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
is what the consultation is about. Keeping me sane system now does not | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
work. It won't work any future. That is why we need change. -- the same | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
system. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Would you agree that | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
we are and it's a current crisis with half Ian Ward actually staff at | :39:35. | :39:43. | |
lowly minimum staffing level for safety? Do you think this will | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
hinder the issue? -- the board. I believe the honourable lady is | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
knowledgeable about this. The proposals help. At the moment, the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
problem of nurse training in this country is that it is limited. The | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
universities cannot take all the people who want to be nurses. They | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
have to turn them away. 30 7000. What is scheme does is open up the | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
opportunity for more people to train. -- 30 7000. -- 37,000. Will | :40:10. | :40:25. | |
this open up more opportunities? Yes, it will. That is why the | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
proposal is there. I want to set up the details, just to those who have | :40:30. | :40:31. | |
not been able to send you hold debate also just to indicate the | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
basis of the reforms and then answer one or two questions that a rate. To | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
deliver more nurses, midwives and allied health professionals for the | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
NHS, a better funding system in England and a sustainable model for | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
universities. We need to movies from grants and bursaries on to the | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
standard student loan system. -- move these. The bursary system is | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
not a viable option for the Government. Any two increased | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
student places, live within our budget and increase investment by an | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
additional ?10,000. The subjects we are talking about our extended | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
bottle for students. In 2014, nursing register as the fourth most | :41:16. | :41:24. | |
popular subject on UCAS. 20,000 places were applied for. Surely it | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
is better than denying many students a place at university, to ensure | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
there are enough health professionals for the NHS while | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
cutting the current reliance on overseas staff and giving more | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
applicants the chance to become health professionals. Part of the | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
reason why we need to modernise the funding system is for student | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
nurses, midwives and allied health professionals to have access to more | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
money via the student loan system. A move to the Launceston in the | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
future, this would ensure a 25% increase in the financial resources | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
available to them. Especially for living costs during Atlantic | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
University. It is not possible to pick out all the speeches were made | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
today, but I would like to make reference to some. The honourable | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
lady, the member for East Kilbride, Stadt Haven and Lesnar Eggo made | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
reference to graduates shouldn't switch were important. -- a | :42:25. | :42:33. | |
Fulbright. We acknowledge, any consultation, there are some courses | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
which currently fall outside the postgraduate loan package. Working | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
with the Treasury means that we will be able to address these in the | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
consultation responses. She is right to raise that. My honourable friend, | :42:48. | :42:56. | |
the chair of the health select committee and the chair for Totnes | :42:57. | :42:58. | |
said we have detained more nurses. That is the bottom line of what | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
you're trying do. She said that it was important to listen to the needs | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
on transition and also she spoke about getting more professionals | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
into other parts, away from the acute sector and into primary care. | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
She knows that is a major interest of the Government and these | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
proposals will help that as well. My honourable friend from Morecambe | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
said they would like to recruit more at home. They will be able to under | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
these proposals. My honourable friend, the member for hedging and | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
happened in a spoke about what he had discovered in relation to | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
talking to people in his own constituency, he once to know about | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
taking on more students from overseas. It is important to | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
recognise that this will ease that situation to some degree and that we | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
will not have to. He spoke about the minister's dilemma, pouring money in | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
and problems coming later. This is important for any Government to | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
recognise. More money has to go into training, both of doctors and the | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
people we're talking about today. There will be a return later, but it | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
is important to do so today. I am conscious of time and I'm sorry I | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
cannot cover more speeches. I have to say this. The NHS never sleeps or | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
stays still, as the country changes, so that the NHS and it must do so. | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
Even the least that is quote is not good enough, you need for | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
innovation, which will be challenging and resisted, is | :44:34. | :44:35. | |
imperative. In the Government, the NHS has got that commitment and will | :44:36. | :44:43. | |
report promote the Reds option of a deficit. We do not want any nurse to | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
be denied it. We do not want people with access to bursaries to fall | :44:50. | :45:01. | |
under hardship. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :45:02. | :45:02. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes have it. As many as are of the opinion, say | :45:03. | :45:51. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". Order, order. The ayes to the right, | :45:52. | :56:21. | |
158. The noes to the left, 277. Thank you. The ice to the right, | :56:22. | :56:32. | |
158. The noes to the left, 277. The noes have it. The noes have it. | :56:33. | :56:45. | |
Unlock. We now come to the backbench debate on education. Thank you very | :56:46. | :56:53. | |
much, Mr Deputy Speaker. It's a pleasure to have secured this debate | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
and to have the chance to raise this issue on Baja bug myself and a | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
number of other colleagues cross-party who are members of the | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
all-party Parliamentary group on London which consists of 47 Members | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
of Parliament from London and 20 or so peers as well. This is an issue | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
of concern, both to the current mayor and the current leaderships of | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
both parties on all councils. That is why we raise in the way we do it. | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
Can I make it clear at the start, neither the mayor zero London | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
councils have an issue with the principle of there being a national | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
funding formula and greater transparency? The lack of | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
transparency is a genuine issue. That is my personal approach as | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
well. Other issues we want to flag up is this, there is a consultation | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
currently out. There are good things in it but risks as well which we | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
think need to be drawn to the attention of the House and | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
government because there are ways in which they could particularly impact | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
on London because of its nature. Can I congratulate the honourable member | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
on securing this most important debate and the power. He has made? | :58:11. | :58:17. | |
Can I agree with him that I have no argument with their funding but my | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
schools are saying to me we need to level up not down, we are in danger | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
of setting deficit budgets and we want to retain some flexible local | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
ability? I am conscious of those were views expressed in a meeting | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
and I am sure other members may well raise those issues in the course of | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
the debate. There are a number of issues that arise. What I want to | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
concentrate on is this, first floor, no problem with the principle that | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
take into account circumstances in London, and that London is not a | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
single unit. There are different pressures which make the capital | :59:02. | :59:04. | |
different from the rest of the country in different parts of the | :59:05. | :59:07. | |
capital different from each other as well. Therefore, we have to be | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
particularly careful in the way in which any formula is applied. That's | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
important because London has been a success in education terms. It now | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
outperforms all other regions in every key of testing, it outperforms | :59:24. | :59:34. | |
its peers at Key stage two, four, in terms of entry to the English back, | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
schools being rated as outstanding or good, 89%, above the national | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
average. It's a success story and it's one we do not want to put into | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
jeopardy. I will give way once more to someone from outside London! I am | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
very grateful for the honourable member giving way. And for | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
recognising and anticipating the point I may make someone who | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
represents South East Cambridgeshire. London has enjoyed | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
great success but isn't it right that other areas should benefit from | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
the opportunity for that same success and you have historic | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
underfunding who had been brought up to the same level that London has | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
enjoyed? The other two things I would observe this, I mentioned that | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
London is not homogenous and this approach. London bar is like mine in | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
Bromley and others... And others have lower levels of funding than | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
those that are headlined in respect of inner London boroughs. Boroughs | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
like ours have levels of funding the scarcely different at all from the | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
shire counties around us. As a Member of Parliament representing | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Kingston upon Thames, would he agree that it cannot be right in the same | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
city children and my Boro get less than ?5,000 yet other borrowers, | :01:02. | :01:13. | |
pupils get over ?7,000 per pupil? I would make progress and take | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
interventions. It's worth setting in context one other point. London has | :01:18. | :01:23. | |
had high levels of funding because dozens applied to every borough. | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
Secondly, there is a reason why that is. I will make this blog before I | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
give way again. There is a reason for that. London has on many levels | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
greater challenges. Far greater levels of children with English as a | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
second language, high levels of deprivation, there is great wealth | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
but also great deprivation, and they are closely geographically and | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
physically in juxtaposed and there are extra costs of being a teacher | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
in London and running a school in London. Land values are very much | :01:58. | :02:08. | |
higher. And the cost of housing need the teachers waging up to be higher. | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
So it's not a legitimate for that to be reflected in a formula. London is | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
a city is the UK's principle economic driver and puts more into | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
the economic than it takes up. Now I will give way to the venerable | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
member for West Ham. I am grateful to the honourable member. Can I | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
congratulate him on securing the debate but also with the manner in | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
which he has approached the debate? I agree with almost everything he | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
said. I come from an outer London borough officially but we have in | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
London needs and that is not reflected in the funding we received | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
from central government. Does he agree with me that we must make sure | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
that the funding received is commensurate to the needs of the | :02:55. | :02:55. | |
children in that area? She is right because that brings me | :02:56. | :03:09. | |
to the second point about funding. Some of the outer London boroughs | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
are no better funded than other areas in the country, but there is | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
an artificial the section in the way that the funding and winding is | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
split between inner and outer London. If we are to bring justice | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
to the formula, Yahoo move away from that this thinking. It is historic. | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
-- you have too. It goes back to 1863, when in London was in fact the | :03:38. | :03:48. | |
old London county council, which had been county education authority and | :03:49. | :03:51. | |
the outer London boroughs had authorities in their own right. | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Either as part of counties or county boroughs. What the honourable lady | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
refers to is the fact that her local authority is an amalgamation of two | :04:03. | :04:10. | |
county berries, -- boroughs, whereas one, which is a much more prosperous | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
borough is an inner London Borough of the others and outer London | :04:19. | :04:20. | |
borough. That is something we have to break down. That sort of | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
distinction distorts the formula. Riot Compensation Bill he is quite | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
right. The funding system today is broken. It has to be handed over | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
from the previous Labour governments. It is broken in London, | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
urban areas and rural allied. They need to be fixed. On a final point, | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
just on the issue of additional costs on London, no one suggests | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
that anywhere outside of London has such a significant cost per head. | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
Provided we get that built in, there needn't be an argument between | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
people. It is a question of making sure that any formula reflecting | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
diversity of needs that areas within and out with London... I will give | :05:04. | :05:13. | |
way. I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. I also | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
thank him for bringing this debate to us. Some of the factors which | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
have impacted on the differential costs on London and elsewhere, would | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
he agree with me that the mobility of families in London is a different | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
factor? I have two primary schools in my constituency that have a 30% | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
turnover every year. That means every teacher has to teach 40 | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
children a year, and the additional costs of getting to know, assessing | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
and then responding to those needs, and setting the it is to be a set | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
formula for every child in the country. I would entirely agree with | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
the honourable lady. I need to say to the Government, that is something | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
that I do hope is included into the formula without any damage to the | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
overall principle. And for that very good reason. But simply because, in | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
a London borough, they are geographically so small and it is | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
part of one single housing market and one single job market, people | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
will move across London boroughs. You can move, in my constituency, | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
quarter of a mile off half a mile and the road and be in a completely | :06:21. | :06:22. | |
different borough. There is much more cross - borough mobility that | :06:23. | :06:32. | |
you experience than in a shire county roads you can move several | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
miles and still be in the same county. That is something that you'd | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
be taken into account to reflect that matter. Of course I will. Thaw | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
I am very grateful. The honourable lady mentioned turbulence as a | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
reason for funding certain schools, particularly in London. With my | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
honourable friend agree with me that London is not the only place water | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
turbulence as suffered? Premiums have to be introduced to account for | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
the fact that everything changes all the time regarding this, and the | :07:02. | :07:10. | |
formula cannot break that. It is worth stressing that turbulence does | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
happen in other places, but is acute in London. This is due to be put | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
relation as a whole, people moving in and out of London, as well as in | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
London and within London. Authorities have do couple are far | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
more cross- borough Plaisance. That is another issue about artificial | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
distinction which has to sensibly be incorporated into the formula. Can I | :07:37. | :07:45. | |
then, because I know several other member Max want to get on and the -- | :07:46. | :07:57. | |
honourable member's. When we talk about the inner and outer | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
distinction, which is out of date, there is pressure of which the whole | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
question of deprivation is measured. It is currently done by postcode. | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
Again, we know that in some London boroughs, the postcode can have | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
massive extremes. In regards to wealth and poverty. I can think of | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
many places, in terms of doctors, or that is very apparent. I will give | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
way. Firstly, may I congratulate you on securing this debate. I | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
absolutely tinker with your point and deprivation. With somewhere like | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Kensington, they still have two of the most deprived areas in all of | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
Britain. Nobody should think that Kensington is just paved with gold. | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
We also have some outstanding schools and the calculations from | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
the initial proposals that we have run through, which I hope the | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
Minister will take heed of, that 28 of 30 schools will have funding | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
reduction should these proposals be implanted. I thank you again for | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
drawing this to our attention. There are pressures. It is very clear that | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
increasing tubule populations will increase that. There is no doubt we | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
have two increases significantly. We're looking at a year-on-year | :09:17. | :09:22. | |
growth of around 3%. That needs to be funded. There is also the issue | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
that London has a particularly high pressure in relation to a special | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
educational needs provision and also the Department does not provide the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
capital funding for this provision. That is a particular issue when you | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
are dealing with many places in the country. I am being generous and I | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
really do need to move on. There are issues that need to be dealt with | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
there. There are issues not directly on the national funding formula, but | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
the formula could a row correction one and two in the designated school | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
grounds. The honourable Minister for Surrey has already been very helpful | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
with this. This is in terms of Irene Riot Compensation Bill I running out | :10:09. | :10:17. | |
rigidity of the transport, that is so intrinsically linked with the | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
schools themselves. When you get psychological services as well, it | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
is exactly same area. If you pick up the margins in this consultation, it | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
could be of great assistance. They run a pretty tight and efficient | :10:33. | :10:43. | |
ship. It has been said that perhaps the biggest risk lies any the | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
special-needs block. There is concern that there was a big budget | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
assumption that they will be billed cardiac council taxpayers, which is | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
a major departure from the underpinning of the schools grant. | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
That is ring fenced. That is a fair point that has been made. I hope the | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Government can take on a means of removing what, I'm sure would have | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
been, and unintended consequence everyone to get that formula | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
sufficiently clickable. The final point I will make actually comes | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
from two headteachers in my own constituency. I took the liberty of | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
finding out from them what their experience was. One, a headteacher | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
of a highly rated primary school very close to where I live myself, | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
simply said this was we already manage on a very tight budget. I can | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
confidently claim that without the very generous support of our PGA, we | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
would not be in a position to form many of the resources that allow us | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
to run so efficiently. Such as technology, sports coaches and even | :11:50. | :11:58. | |
things like exercise. -- PTA. This is a school that is doing all the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
right things. It is gone from a small school into a multi-Academy | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
trust, which is what the Government what to do, but there are tight up | :12:05. | :12:14. | |
against it in the margins. The head of a good secondary school has also | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
pointed out that Bromley is the lowest funded in London and as many | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
of the Shara counties, -- shire counties. The whole question she | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
reiterates is the arbitrary distinction, you go a very short | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
period when she is paying teachers at one level am finding at one | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
level, and outer London level, when the rolled English and Greenwich, | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
the demographic is no different but there is a line on the map and that | :12:48. | :12:56. | |
somehow has to be picked up. That, I think, is a helpful summary from | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
people at the face of it. I will not use any more time, I hope I have | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
flagged up the issues because I know there are many people who want to | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
bring their own perspective to this debate. I am very grateful for the | :13:10. | :13:18. | |
cancer rate issue. The question is, as on the order paper, can I suggest | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
they get ten minutes each and they where it goes?, thank you. I pay | :13:24. | :13:33. | |
tribute to my honourable friend for his work. Today's debate raises | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
concerns that changes to the national funding formula, as the | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
honourable gentleman has highlighted, will massively impact, | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
in a negative way, an London's schools and pupils. Despite the | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
current's policy of ring fenced funding, the reports suggest that | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
London schools are already facing reductions in real terms by 8% over | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
the next five years. It now looks very likely that the schools in | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
London will face a further ?260 million per year due to changes in | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
the national funding formula. The Minister has, in the past, said that | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
is not the case. I hope he will take the opportunity today, when he | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
responds, to clarify whether this figure is one that he accepts. | :14:25. | :14:33. | |
Whether he can confirm to members that 260 million pounds per year is | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
not the cut that London's tools will face. I will give way. It is also | :14:37. | :14:45. | |
the case, is it not that the funding formula is driving some perverse | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
outcomes between schools within local authorities. Westminster | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
Council has advised me that there will be 20 schools that will lose up | :14:54. | :14:59. | |
to 14% of the right because of the way funding formula looks. | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
Perversely, some of the schools with the highest provision was the most, | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
and some of the schools with you with deprivation are actually | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
gaining. It is just between -- it is not just between local authorities, | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
it is also between schools. Riot Compensation Bill I thank my | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
honourable friend for her contribution and I hope the minister | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
listens carefully to those insights. This kind of invocation means that | :15:22. | :15:32. | |
it is school children that offer. It puts at risk the improvements in | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
performance that we have seen in schools in London. Which is | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
something that should be the envy... It is the envy of the world, in | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
fact. Many studies have shown how London has progressed. It has taken | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
a generation to achieve that. I hope the Minister will recognise the | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
concerns today and the dangers of this change that we risk affecting | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
never Riot Compensation Bill negatively on the performance in | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
London schools. I want to highlight some of the backdrop of which London | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
has transformed schools and, as I said earlier, it has taken a | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
generation. The danger is that this change will take a very short time | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
to set us back. London faces some of the highest child poverty in the | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
country. London also, as the honourable gentleman pointed out, | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
faces the highest inequality in the country and extremely high cost of | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
living, which has a detrimental effect on teachers being able to | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
find accommodation, especially against the rising cost of housing | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
and other living costs. Despite the challenges, local education | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
authorities across parties, Labour councils as well as Conservative | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
councils, have worked tirelessly to improve education in London. As a | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
result, nine out of ten schools are good or outstanding. I hope the | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
Minister will think very carefully about the impact of these reforms on | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
that progress. Because, if we are not careful about what happens, the | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
danger is that we will set schools back in London. London is seen by | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
other regions as an example. People point to the London Challenge, which | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
was introduced in the last Labour Government, and support it. It is | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
recognised by people across different parties for its | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
achievements. Other regions have try and you like that. It is really | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
important that we built on the successes of our regions, rather | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
than pitting against each other. That, I fear, is one of the things | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
that will happen as a result of this change. It is wrong to do that. It | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
is wrong to have educational being put in an position where it can be | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
in constant for the wrong reasons. We should be looking at how we can | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
improve conditions for all of our children across the country. | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
It's important we have a fair system across the country. Parts of London | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
have disproportionately benefited. In Lambeth schools, they can have | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
more than ?1500 a head more in a class of 30 down a school in | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
Croydon. We do need to fix that. What I would say to the honourable | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
gentleman is that what we have got is very good results in London. Nine | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
out of ten schools in London where they are good and outstanding. So | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
what we should be doing is building on that, not putting scores against | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
each other. As somebody who serves on the education committee, he | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
should know better than to make that argument. I wasn't going to | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
intervene again but I have two because the Conservative Party on | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
its manifesto said, under a future Conservative government, the amount | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
of money following your child into school will be protected. Does my | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
honourable friend agree with me that a change in the formula to take | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
money away from some children is not the right way to meet a manifesto | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
commitment? I completely agree with my honourable friend. It's yet | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
another broken promise. I hope the minister will listen carefully today | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
and make sure that that promises not broken. I wonder if she has seen | :19:28. | :19:36. | |
their estimate I have seen, that if the F 40 proposals were implemented | :19:37. | :19:45. | |
as tabled, then the effect would be that the most prosperous authorities | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
in the country would gain over ?200 million, and the least prosperous | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
would lose over ?200 million? My honourable friend makes a very | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
important point. This is exactly what school teachers are concerned | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
about. What we cannot have is that happening. It just goes to show that | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
the motive behind this change is not good one. I think the government | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
should be ashamed of itself. The minister or to take action. I will | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
give way to my honourable friend. My honourable friend makes a very | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
powerful point about the collective endeavour to improve standards of | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
education for children in London. Does she agree with the concern but | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
I have got there in Southwark, that will be undermined if Southwark | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
schools as -- are set to lose 8-20% between nine and 2020? Dishy agreed | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
that that is not protecting it? I completely agree with my honourable | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
friend. I find it shocking that government ministers can make the | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
argument that they are protecting budgets when it's the opposite and | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
it will devastate schools in London. I appeal to the government to look | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
at how they can build on the achievements in cities like London | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
rather than set them against each other with other regions that is | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
deeply unhelpful and is deeply unhelpful to our educationists who | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
work tirelessly to make sure they do well. I will turn to the specific | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
example of my constituency to highlight of the Minister just how | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
the investment in schools in London has transformed education. Under the | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
last Labour government, schools and Tower Hamlets rose from being at the | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
bottom of the national league tables turn being some of the country's | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
best against the backdrop of two out of three young people being eligible | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
for free school meals, over 75% of pupils with English as a second | :21:55. | :21:57. | |
language and some of the highest levels of child poverty in the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
country. Tower Hamlets is now in the top third of the national league | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
tables in a city that has had the highest | :22:07. | :22:19. | |
percentage of schools are good or outstanding. However, we can't | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
afford to be complacent. Despite these achievements, 40% of London's | :22:23. | :22:23. | |
pupils leave school without good GCSEs and funding reduction could | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
the further improvements at risk. We need to build on our achievements | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
and make sure that 40% can lead the education system with good results. | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
That is where the government should be focused on rather than special | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
mating success through cutting funding in London. The issues around | :22:39. | :22:47. | |
funding, as the honourable member pointed out earlier, are connected | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
to recruitment issues, London faces increasingly challenges around | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
recruitment because of the cost of living crisis and in a context where | :22:59. | :23:07. | |
73% of the schools budget on average is allocated to staff costs, these | :23:08. | :23:15. | |
potential changes will meet fewer teachers in London schools, | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
potentially of the 6000 fewer schools in London. I will give way. | :23:19. | :23:26. | |
With the honourable lady accept that the increase in house prices in | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
outer London means the difficulty in recruiting teachers is one that is | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
all around London and the distinction between inner and outer | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
London no longer is made good with the increase in house prices across | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
the city as a whole quest to work in bars like mine and new worm and | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
Hackney, there has been unprecedented rise, much higher than | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
out of London. But I accept his point that house prices are a major | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
issue. But the government should be looking at how to address this | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
problem across London and the country rather than dividing | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
communities in areas. We have got to build on our achievements and not | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
turn areas against each other because that does not serve our | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
constituents or young people well. I want to turn to the question of | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
population growth in London. In a context where the population is | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
growing by 100,000 a year in London, we cannot afford to have less | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
teachers. If we are looking at 6000 fewer teachers now, imagine what | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
would happen in the future. We need to plan ahead for the needs of | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
cities like London. If you want London to be a world-class city | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
where we have the best educated young people in the country and we | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
help other areas to improve and replicate what we achieve in London, | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
we should make sure we don't throw away that success. I will continue | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
because I know other members will want to come in. I have given way a | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
number of times. Perhaps she will have a chance to come in and speak | :24:59. | :25:05. | |
as well. As has been pointed out already, the cost of living in | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
London has meant that teachers are finding it difficult to survive on | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
the salaries they are already being paid to stop its important there is | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
recognition of the fact that they require the London weighting | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
equivalent to enable them to live in London and work in London. Already | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
in bar is like mine and elsewhere, local authorities are struggling to | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
maintain and keep the teacher numbers they have, and the context | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
is that with these cuts, they will have to lay off teachers, which is | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
not what local schools need. There is an additional point, which is | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
what we have seen in burrows is that collaboration, partnership, | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
effective use of the resources that has been given, working closely | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
between teachers and local education authorities is what helps is create | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
success stories that transformed our schools. What we need to do is build | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
on that model. It's not the Academy 's Asian schools in my borough. We | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
did not have academies. It's collaborative model and partnership | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
along with resources targeted into schools, training, investment in | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
training and support to teachers that transforms schools in my | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
constituency and elsewhere and that is well recognised, not just in the | :26:35. | :26:42. | |
UK but around the country. Recent reports highlight what it took to | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
highlight education. My plea to the Minister is that he takes back these | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
plans, looks at the formula again and make sure that the funding is | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
targeted to those who need the funding and in London, given the | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
inequality and deprivation, it's vital that we maintain that support | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
and the government should look at levelling up the support to schools | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
across the country, as has been said earlier, not taking resources away | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
and punishing schools for doing well. My plea to the Minister is, | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
let's remember that it has taken a generation to transform schools like | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
those in my borough and across London. It will take a matter of | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
years, even less, if this funding formula is introduced, with | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
resources taken away from schools, to decimate our education system in | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
London. Surely he will appreciate that it's far better to improve and | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
learn from each other and build on our achievements rather than damage | :27:51. | :27:58. | |
it? Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I congratulate my honourable friend | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
the leading this debate and its pleasure to follow the honourable | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
lady. I must say, I did not agree with the tone of her speech. Her | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
party is committed to a fair funding formula because the one we have now | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
is broken within London. There were examples all around London where you | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
can find schools hundreds of yards apart with tens of thousands of | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
pounds per classroom difference in the funding. It's completely broken, | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
it's wrong, and across the country, it's broken. The biggest gain from | :28:33. | :28:41. | |
the proposals is Barnsley. Other major northern cities would be | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
beneficiaries. They would lose out because what we have now is erratic, | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
irrational and there's no examination. IBEC members opposite | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
in particular not to use the language used by the honourable | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
lady. The government has set out a consultation setting out the | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
principles and she didn't itemise a single principle in that | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
consultation. She simply asserted that it was some sort of appalling | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
assault on London to reverse the progress that has been made. Nothing | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
could be further from the truth. There are limited resources, | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
recognised by the frontbenchers on both sides of this House of Commons. | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
So talk of levelling up is all very well so long as your party is | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
committed to the vast budgetary increases that would be required. | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
The Labour Party is committed to no such thing and neither is this. | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Whatever the budget, even if it were increased, we should sit down in a | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
broken inequitable system and seeks to make sure that every child, every | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
single child, regardless of their disability, race or geography, their | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
needs are met. She was right to say we need a system based on needs. | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
That's precisely what the government has put consulted on. Whatever they | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
come up with will not be perfect but to suggest that the motive... To | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
question the motive when the government is setting out with the | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
support of the Labour from French to introduce a fairer funding system is | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
beneath the honourable lady and to say we will see debt decimating of | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
London education is so far from the truth. We need every area of this | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
country to enjoy the improvements that have happened in London and one | :30:34. | :30:41. | |
of the ways we're doing it is by making sure we have a system which | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
is truly fair and I hope across this House that partisan voices won't | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
stop us coming to a fair and consensual conclusion. He makes a | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
very important point that we need fairness that every child to get an | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
equal opportunity to an education but will he agree with me that many | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
of the points that have been made around London, growth, special | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
needs, high house prices, and need to recruit and retain teachers, | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
apply to other areas of the country, not only London, like Cambridge, for | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
which every single one of those factors apply? She is absolutely | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
right. We had language about dividing communities. The only | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
people attempting to do that today would be the honourable lady who use | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
language which is inappropriate. No one is seeking to divide | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
communities. If we have a broken system, and if anyone would like to | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
make the case about how our system is fair, reasonable and just, please | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
do so. If it isn't, we have to redistribute, so making pernickety | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
points about the manifesto, saying the government will protect the | :31:53. | :32:00. | |
money, which it is, to the point when you cannot redistribute it from | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
someone who has been grossly unfairly funded in one place, is | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
ridiculous and is beneath the honourable lady that brought up and | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
beneath members opposite, including the highly distinguished finger of | :32:15. | :32:15. | |
the honourable gentleman. Most people don't regard these as | :32:16. | :32:27. | |
pernickety. What is not being addressed is that the reality is, he | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
is asking for more resources for its local authority and let others. | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
Would he have the frankness to acknowledge that? The honourable | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
gentleman is actually incorrect. I am not. What I want is a fair | :32:40. | :32:46. | |
system. A system based on principle in which need is accessed and the | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
money follows the pupil and that need. That is what all those should | :32:50. | :32:57. | |
want. I think it is, the garment has, in a transparent way, put | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
aside... In this house, we can rise above that. If the details come out | :33:05. | :33:13. | |
and they are found, in some way, not to fit pencils, then they would be | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
worthy of criticism. Right now, you cannot say that. To have a broken | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
situation now and not wanted to change, what we have to talk about | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
is, what emphasis do you want to give too deprivation? To population | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
movement? The Government has touched on all those. I don't see how it is | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
possible for someone to say that they have a problem with a lot of | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
people who have English as a second language. That is in the formula. | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
You cannot talk about deprivation in London because that is also in the | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
formula. I give way to my extremely experienced Northeastern colleague. | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
I am very grateful to the honourable gentleman forgiving way. There are | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
many different reasons as to which, quite the differences in the country | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
exist, one of them is historically the choice of local authority | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
concerned. Some authorities used to choose to spend above standard | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
funding assessment. The thing was, they funded that out of local | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
taxation. That was then built into the funding which was taken out of | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
the distribution which now exists. It is a crucial point. It is an | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
interesting point Andy honourable gentleman, as ever, is well | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
informed. If you'll get the picture, look at Westminster. Westerners | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
always mention. Look at the council tax rates that people in very | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
expensive properties there are paying. Absolutely on the floor. | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
Look at the council tax being paid by my constituents in homes at a | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
fraction of that value and see how much more they are paying. It does | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
not wash. You cannot suggest that there is some fairer funding system | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
being undermined by the fact that some distant past mid-people paying | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
less council tax. The truth is, there are very high level than that | :35:08. | :35:18. | |
of council tax in areas with areas of low funding. And the opposite. | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
What he wanted a system that is there for everyone. I will give way. | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
Thank you to my honourable friend for allowing me. Would he agree with | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
me that property prices is an element in this formula which must | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
be taken into consideration? Particularly boroughs like the | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
London Borough of paper which is right when the very outside of outer | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
London were teachers are paid an outer London allowance. -- Haverham. | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
Newly qualified teachers apply for jobs in our schools and 11 found to | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
not able to afford the accommodation. They then moving | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
toward Dagenham and other nearby boroughs where the property cheaper. | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
My honourable friend is out on the right. Across London, there are all | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
sorts of boroughs which, as I said, funded to the Jews of tens of | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
thousands of pounds. Lester Craft -- tens of thousands of pounds less | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
than others clash. Interestingly, only point of improving standards, | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
despite that. Outer London has been part of the London educational | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
transformation. To suggest that, if you move to a situation of gross | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
inequities, to one to Sarah to all, that you undermine quality, when in | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
fact those who have suffered that, such as my honourable friend's | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
constituency, proves that it is not just about money but the money does | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
need to be distributed fairly. What is important today, we have to do, | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
as a house, say we want a system that is fair to all. We should be | :36:56. | :36:58. | |
discussing the principles and making sure the Government does not wriggle | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
on any of them for its own partisan or any other interest. Quite right. | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
Let's not get longer. Let's not try to divide communities when the aim | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
of fairer funding is the right one. Everyone across the house, including | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
labour and the other frontbenchers, should strive for that as well. I | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
will start by congratulating the honourable gentleman for Bromley for | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
securing this important debate. I was delighted to co-sponsor it | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
alongside him and several others and co-chair of them. It is important to | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
see London members on all sides in the chamber is making the case for | :37:37. | :37:43. | |
London's children. In the expectation that the Government | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
builders in and do the right thing by the capital's children. London | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
schools have been transformed over recent years, particularly since the | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
London Challenge that was injured by the last Labour Government in 2003. | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
It was before a performance of London's children above the national | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
average, well they have remained ever since. London students | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
outperform their peers in both GCSE and Key stage two and they have the | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
highest rates in England for a GCSE maths and English. However, no one | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
here, no one in education in London considers that we job done. We need | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
to keep the pressure up to improve further. In a globalised economy, | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
one has to compete with the destiny world. -- London has two. We cannot | :38:28. | :38:35. | |
undermine our schools, head teachers, teachers, parents and, | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
above all, our hard-working students. Now, my honourable friend | :38:39. | :38:47. | |
said it was pernickety to keep your education promises. That is not | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
pernickety. It is a matter of trust. To breach that trust, as the | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
Government does time and again, is absolutely the wrong thing to do. | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
All schools deserve fairer funding. As my honourable friend has said | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
during this debate, that means living link up funding, not | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
levelling down. -- levelling up. We are told that schools could lose | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
?260 million per year from their budget. Some London boroughs are | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
bracing themselves for a loss of up to 20% of funding for every school, | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
cuts on that scale would push education backwards in the capital. | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
To completely protect schools and funding, the Government would have | :39:33. | :39:40. | |
to do is increase the budget by ?540 million per year. That would give | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
all schools the ability to match the highest performing school. Clearly, | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
that is a very significant and out money but it is a fraction of how | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
much will be put into touring schools in the academies. That could | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
go as high as ?1.3 billion. Surely a deranged proposal that would detract | :40:02. | :40:11. | |
many schools in London from focusing on governance. Instead, 80% of all | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
schools are already rated as good or outstanding. It beggars belief that | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
the Government wants to undermine their success. Especially with these | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
unnecessary, dogmatic changes. There is no need to be lies children in | :40:26. | :40:32. | |
London. Education cannot just be seen as a sunk cost. It is an | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
investment baggage and people a better chance in life. It boosts | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
economic growth. It gives us a better skilled workforce that will | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
benefit everyone. Now... I will give way. We are talking about a better | :40:46. | :40:53. | |
chance in life and a more skilled workforce. I am quite sure everyone | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
in this chamber will agree with me that the people that are often | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
disadvantaged at the moment our children with special education | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
needs. We have got to make sure that that funding is maintained, if not | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
improve. There are real problems starting to appear in our | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
constituency, wrongly, particularly in schools in which secondary | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
schools, like the Langley schools, of which my own children are a part. | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
The honourable gentleman makes a very good point. I am glad he raised | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
it and I will be astonished that anyone any chamber disagrees with | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
them. He is cried right, we need to keep a trite eye on support | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
available for those children because of their vulnerability. They have | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
not always been supported properly to achieve the things that they | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
should be supported to achieve. I would like to focus, for a moment, | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
only situation on Croydon. Borrower is per pupil at ?592 over manual and | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
an average. We have the biggest shortfall of places in the country. | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
Over the five years, the number of primary schools in Croydon is | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
projected to go, grow at twice the London average. Croydon faces a huge | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
demand for new primary school places that the Government cannot continue | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
to ignore and which the governor cannot exacerbate with funding | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
proposals that will follow disadvantaged children in our | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
borrower. A particular problem, which has been forwarded to | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
elsewhere in this debate, is the fact that teacher pay an London | :42:28. | :42:35. | |
boroughs -- in London boroughs can be ?5,000 more than outer London | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
boroughs. If you are in a school on the border, like in my constituency, | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
it can be hard to attract teachers who could earn so much more money at | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
another school which may be just a few hundred yards away. That is an | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
anomaly which has to be addressed. So the covenant ministers do not | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
misunderstand me, I don't mean it has to be addressed by cutting pay | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
in inner London. It was asked why anyone would question the | :43:05. | :43:05. | |
Government's motives over this issue. Well, one of the reasons | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
parents in London are so fearful for their schools is the way that the | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Government implemented the cuts relief grant, the transitional | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
relief grant will this year. Under that scheme, intended to ease the | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
pain of local government funding cuts, ?300 million of funding was | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
made available but all the relief went to wealthier areas who | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
experienced the accused levels of cuts. Sorry, got another 24 million | :43:33. | :43:41. | |
-- sorry got another ?24 million to spend while Croydon got so much less | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
than that. It was political gerrymandering. If that happens | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
again, with schools funding, one of those that children will suffer. | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
London's councils estimate that 23 boroughs are at risk of losing | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
funding. Such a decision would be perverse. I hope the new mail of | :44:04. | :44:11. | |
London will be elected tomorrow, and I hope it is the member of Tooting, | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
will join me and many other MPs in making powerful representations in | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
terms of making London schools much more equal. I will not undermine our | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
capital city's education. Our children's lives matter too much. We | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
depend on the success. I urge ministers to turn back and think | :44:34. | :44:45. | |
again. I congratulate my honourable friend from Bromley for bringing | :44:46. | :44:53. | |
this debate is to us. They are absolutely right. It is a crucial | :44:54. | :45:00. | |
issue for the capital. I am worried about the process of which the | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
Government has gone through to get as to this point. There was a | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
document published in March, the run-up to the consultation, anyone, | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
there was a series of meetings which, as far as I can tell, were | :45:16. | :45:22. | |
exclusively representative of the F 40 group of authorities. According | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
to the F 40 wreck website, they met with the Department on the 21st of | :45:28. | :45:36. | |
January 2015 on the 15th of June 2015, and on to be more occasions to | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
discuss these proposals. As far as I can establish, no representatives | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
for any London councils were present at any of those meetings. I am very | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
worried that, because of the very unbalanced process that the | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
Government has gone through, we are going to end up with a very | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
unbalanced proposal. Nobody can object to the F 40 group. I will | :45:59. | :46:08. | |
gladly do so. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Can I assure | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
that my door is always open every member of this house and any member | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
of any representative of any local authorities that wants to discuss | :46:17. | :46:19. | |
any concerns they have within my portfolio? Thank you for that. The | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
worry is that the door has only been open to this particular group. | :46:27. | :46:35. | |
Nobody can object to championing the F 40. They promote their own | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
interests and that is something we cannot complain about Taylor. There | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
was a version of the minutes of the September meeting with the F 40 | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
group which courted an official from the Department for Education | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
offering, and I am quoting, offering to share proposals with the F 40 | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
group in confidence. Well, proposal should not be fair share in | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
confidence with one particular set of authorities. I noticed the | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
minutes have now been altered so they don't say that any more. No | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
such offer should ever have been made. My worry, deep worry, is that | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
we are heading towards a woefully unbalanced proposal as a result of | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
the privilege act that has been given to that particular group. I | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
want to ask... Say to the Minister, and I am grateful for his | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
reassurance about his door being opened, I want him to give us the | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
commitment that when the numbers are put on the structure that is | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
contained in the consultation which will be published in March, -- which | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
was published in March, that there will be no cut in the school funding | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
for pupils in the most disadvantaged areas of the country. As I have | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
heard from I honourable friend, it has been pointed out that the | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
Conservative manifesto certainly sounds as though there will be no | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
cuts for any individual students although I hope that commitment will | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
be maintained. I particularly want to press the Minister that Bill | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
should be no cuts in schools funding for pupils in the most disadvantaged | :48:17. | :48:24. | |
areas. It would be surely quite perverse now to slash the same | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
funding through this formula. As I have mentioned in my intervention | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
earlier, the F 40 proposals, if they were projecting to affect would mean | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
the 30 most disadvantaged is already in the country losing ?245 million | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
per year. The 30 most affluent authorities in the country would | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
gain over 218 million per year. It would be a straightforward switch of | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
hundreds of millions of pounds from the most disadvantaged authorities | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
to the most affluent. I hope the Minister will reassure us that kind | :49:03. | :49:10. | |
of switch advocated by the F 40 group, clearly and understandably in | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
the interest of what they want to see, I have the Minnesota reassures | :49:14. | :49:21. | |
them that will not happen. -- I have the Minister. Looking at your likely | :49:22. | :49:31. | |
impact of the formula, the request was refused, officials said they did | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
have this information but it was refused on the grounds that it was | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
formulation of Government policy and was therefore exempt from freedom of | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
information obligations. As I said, there has clearly been lots of | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
access for representatives of the F 40 authorities I would ask the | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
Minister, and he has given us the commitment that is the result was | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
open that the information should be released to other authorities as | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
well. So that everyone can see where we are heading. As it stands, some | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
authorities have been taken into the Government's confidence and a | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
refused information on what has been going on. | :50:17. | :50:19. |