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this exceptionally difficult and trying time. Point of order. Mr Ian | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
Blackford. I am delighted as I rise to make a point of order that the | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
Immigration Minister is in his seat. I would like to refer to an urgent | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
question and I would say in good faith when the Minister of | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
immigration responded, that he indicated that a family came to the | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
UK after the post works these had been removed. I wanted to make the | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
point and ask him to clarify his remarks because the family were | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
granted a visa to come to the UK on the 20th of December 2010, so before | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
the post study work these had started. I have always argued that | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
this family should be given the right to work here while they fulfil | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
the demands of the Visa. I have sought to display my usual | :01:03. | :01:20. | |
generosity of spirit to an exceptionally dedicated and | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
assiduous constituency member, which the honourable gentleman undoubtedly | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
is, however he will take it in the right spirit if I say that was not a | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
point of order. It was patented not addressed in any meaningful sense to | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
and could not be intended for the chair. It was a request to the | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
Minister on the Treasury bench. Accordingly, it is best | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
communicated, directly to the Minister in writing or through a | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
meeting rather than across the floor of the House. On this one occasion | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
and this one occasion only, and I realise the seriousness of the | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
matter, I will say that if the Minister wants very briefly to | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
respond, even only to indicate a willingness to engage, so be it. The | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
honourable gentleman should give me notice of attention to raise such an | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
order. Mr Speaker I am content to write to | :02:21. | :02:31. | |
the honourable gentleman on the point he has raised so I am able to | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
consider it properly. Thank you, I hope the Orrell will gentleman is | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
satisfied for now. If there are no other points for ordered the clerk | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
will proceed. The crime bill to be further considered. Thank you, we | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
continue with clause 48 with which it will be convenient to consider | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
the other new clauses, new schedules and amendments listed on the paper. | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
To move clause 408I called the Minister of State, Minister Mike | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
Penning. You are generous and not reading out all the new clauses and | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
amendments because we may have been the some considerable time. Can I | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
start my opening comments by saying genuinely how this will has | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
progressed with the respect of both sides of the House in a genuine way. | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
There are, if I can briefly make some opening comments and then I | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
will naturally despond towards the end of this time slot, Mr Speaker, | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
to comments from colleagues around the House. Cause there are some | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
amendments in this group I thought it was only right and proper I | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
address some of those. I address some of the shadow Secretary Of | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
State elements as well and we have had numerous meetings and will try | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
to work our way through this. Let's see if we can carry that forward as | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
best we can. The intention is to have a robust and independent | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
inspection regime for the Fire and Rescue Service in England. New | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
clause 48 and new schedule one will support the objective of | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
strengthening the framework currently provided by the Fire And | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
Rescue Services act of 2004. This provides for an inspector which will | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
be required and appeared to prepare a programme of inspection for the | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
Fire And Rescue Services. The Secretary Of State will be able to | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
ask for outside the public programme if necessary. They will be required | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
to produce reports on the inspections and the chief will make | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
an annual report to this House, to Parliament, something that does not | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
take place now. He will carry out joint inspection works with the | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
inspector of Constabulary and this is important where Police And Crime | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
Commissioners and Mitt Romney 's take on the fire and rescue | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
responsibilities. Finally this will make sure they have access to the | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
information they need to undertake rigorous inspection of Fire and | :05:13. | :05:14. | |
rescue authorities and the persons employed by them. That means no door | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
will be locked and all information will be available to the Inspector. | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
While we believe the vast majority of inspections to be undertaken with | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
consent we need to be alert to the fact there might be additional | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
powers if needed which means literally F and Inspector does not | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
get the access they feel the deserve and need to provide a report they | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
have the powers to pass for a quote. They will be more transparent, more | :05:44. | :05:50. | |
accountable... I give way. As a former holder of this part of his | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
post I entirely welcome and support these amendments. The Inspector and | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
the authority is a good idea but may I raise one technical issue? It is | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
provision for delegation at the moment to another public body, many | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
of us think it would be much better if the schedule was so phrased as to | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
permit the use of external contractors to carry out certain | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
elements of the inspection on behalf of inspectors we are the those | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
outside expertise which may not be readily available in a public body | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
which at the moment the wording both in the main cause and in the | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
schedule does not appear to allow delegation to an external contractor | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
who may well have expertise in audit to make it robust and independent, | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
could you reflect on that? Can he exclude from his intervention | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
anything he thought that many time or any GP may be material and I have | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
a sense that when he practised law on a regular basis he operated in a | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
similar vein. Minister. I understand where he is coming from however, at | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
the moment we do not feel there are a need for external specialists in | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
that sort of way. If we find out later on the is the Inspector could | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
come to the Home Secretary and ask for those specific needs. There is | :07:16. | :07:24. | |
enough in the Fire Service to make sure this regime works, it is | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
completely different to the one that explains that the moment. Thank you | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
for giving way. Another former Fire Minister. There was a tradition we | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
were West Ham United reporters but sadly that was broken by the | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
honourable gentleman! And he explain having got away to the National | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
Audit Office and know nothing now we are going back to the Fire Services | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
Inspectorate, as he taken into account UCAS, the national | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
application servers? Along the lines of what he said that giving external | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
advice to the Inspectorate and will be new Chief Inspector DD National | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
advisor for fire which was the position that was created? Can he | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
explain a little of the background? I am conscious I am in the hands of | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
experts who were ministers before I was. I was surprised when I came | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
into the road to see how the inspections to lease. It was not as | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
I envisaged when he brought it through. There was a general field | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
that they had to address the costs and how it was done but frankly and | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
to be perfectly honest, it has not worked. It cannot have the situation | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
we have at the moment we are one Fire and rescue force inspects | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
another and tells them what they can and cannot expect. This is separate | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
which is why we have done it alongside the Inspectorate of | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
Constabulary and the new inspector will tell us exactly what expertise | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
is required especially as ex-firefighters like the payroll of | :09:08. | :09:09. | |
us are what they need to be looking at. The area around the financial | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
side of how it is working is an area of expertise but I accept some areas | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
will need to have expertise from other areas. I promise not to | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
trouble him any more but can he clarify for me, I agree with his | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
response to the member opposite that can he clarify is he saying if | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
evidence is resented ministers will not rule out making an appropriate | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
arrangement whereby commissioning can take these were the chief | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
inspector things it is appropriate to do so in relation to any | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
inspection that won't require us to come back and make any arrangements | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
in this House because that would defeat the object as I am trying to | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
understand. Categorically we do not want to put a handcuff on the | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
Inspector. If the Inspector needs additional expertise and to bring | :10:04. | :10:05. | |
that in whether from Newcastle brothers then that is for them to | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
bring to the ministers responsible. They would not be a requirement to | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
come to this House. I think this is a really positive move for the Fire | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
Service which has been welcomed by the Chiefs and in the meetings I | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
have had with envy are very supportive. I am not sure every | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
single one is because obviously the ones who are not might not be | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
banging so hard on my door as the one to wear. I will come back later | :10:31. | :10:39. | |
if we have time. Can I briefly touch on DNA and fingerprint retention? | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
This is an important and sensitive area. The new clauses 49 and 50 | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
would help prevent and detect crime with the any and fingerprint | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
retained on databases outside of England and Wales in the same way as | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
the material could be used if they had the crime taking place inside | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
England and Wales. This is to protect the public and will only be | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
in place for offences which are specific which would have been an | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
offence inside England and Wales, whether they have taken place | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
outside England and Wales. It is something which has been requested | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
and the amendments have been made to clauses 49 and 50 will enhance the | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
effectiveness of DNA and fingerprint databases and help our police keep | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
us safe which is something I am sure we want to do to regularly with the | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
heightened threat we have. New clauses 51, 52 and new clause to the | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
play strength arrest provided by the criminal Justice and order act and | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
appears to have support from around the House on that. Can I briefly | :11:54. | :11:59. | |
touch because I specifically want to listen to the Shadow Home Secretary | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
is my comments in his work, the amendments we have discussed with | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
the leasing Minister and the Home Secretary has discussed as well, in | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
the main B1 to hear... It may assist the House if I say a few words. We | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
welcome a constructive approach from the opposition and particularly from | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
the Hillsborough families in this case and the campaign groups. We | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
would not be talking here about these issues now without the bravery | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
of the health brat families and the Hillsborough campaign. It would not | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
have happened and I would not be standing here so I particularly want | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
to praise them at this stage. The work carries on, it will more stop | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
whatever happens today. The Shadow Home Secretary identified a | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
number... Of course. I would like to thank the Minister for giving way. | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
He has just mentioned the health brat families some of whom are here | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
today to hear the Minister's words. Will he give categoric assurances to | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
them that this sort of thing could never happen again given the new | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
clause, 63? Go Minister could stand that this dispatch box and give | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
categoric assurances in this way but what we have done is moved | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
enormously forward with the Home Secretary's perseverance along with | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
the shadow Secretary Of State. We are in any position here and are | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
trying as hard as we possibly can to make sure these terrible situations | :13:37. | :13:38. | |
never happen again without consequential effects in other parts | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
so I cannot categorically do what he is asking but he will understand | :13:46. | :13:47. | |
we'd I am coming from other work will disappoint him. I will be as | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
helpful as I possibly can. We recognise the strength of feeling on | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
these issues and ensure police officers who commit the most serious | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
acts of wrongdoing can be held to account and that actions, no matter | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
when they come to light. We are not talking about criminal acts. If it | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
is a criminal action it can be born against individuals but we are | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
looking at actions against a police officer, disciplinary actions. On | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
that basis and I am looking very carefully at what the shadow | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
secretary has it down in his amendments and the discussions I | :14:26. | :14:27. | |
have had with the Shadow police Minister. He will bring forward in | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
the House of lords that we will be able to extend the 12 month time | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
limit reposed in the bill in exceptional circumstances to | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
unlimited. That is in understanding the have not completely opened up to | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
every offence. We will work within regulations with the Shadow Home | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
Secretary and his team and I hope the Hillsborough families and Bishop | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
James to see how these regulations can be drafted so that we can make | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
sure that it does what it says on the tin. We will keep the 12 month | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
rule but in exceptional circumstances, based on | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
recommendations, we will be able to look at historical challenges. Not | :15:09. | :15:18. | |
criminal, that is a different side, but in what actions against a former | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
police officer. A 12 month limit will remain but we will work on the | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
regulations. That is a significant move on our behalf. This will apply | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
to police officers serving with the police force at the point of these | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
provisions coming into force. We do not believe it should be applied | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
retrospectively but I believe this is a significant move so families | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
going forward will have the sort of addiction be would want. In relation | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
to new clause 66, in relation to the police and the media, and would like | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
to assure the House that the consultation that is going on at the | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
moment which we discussed with the shadow team and the College of | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
leasing is actively looking at guidance in this particular area. I | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
will not predict what they can account for but I wouldn't be | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
looking at it. We will wait for the colleagues to come forward. New | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
clauses 63 and 65 about the support to fans which I now is the really | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
important area and something we are looking at. The Home Secretary has | :16:25. | :16:32. | |
asked Bishop James to look into the report not just around this | :16:33. | :16:34. | |
financial area but the whole aspect of how we could improve and better | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
so the families don't go through that sort of situation ever again. | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
They will wait for Bishop James's report. What ever happens in the | :16:46. | :16:56. | |
House afternoon, the matter will not stop there. We will still work with | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
Bishop James and wait for the report. In relation to new clause | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
64, the Government has made it clear on many occasions that we've will | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
wait for the criminal proceedings that are still ongoing and then the | :17:19. | :17:25. | |
Home Secretary will come forward. There are lots of other amendments | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
within that we can discuss but I wanted to try to set out the | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
Government's position. Inspection of fire and rescue | :17:32. | :17:47. | |
authorities. The question is that the Government new clause 48 B read | :17:48. | :17:55. | |
a second time. I would like to begin by agreeing with the Minister that | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
some good progress has been made in the course of our deliberations on | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
this bill. Improvements that we will discuss later in terms of tackling | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
child sexual exploitation, improvements to the police bail | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
regime, particularly as it applies to suspects suspected of being | :18:18. | :18:26. | |
involved in counterterrorism activity and progress on police | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
misconduct, which I will come onto. I would argue that this bill | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
presents an opportunity to do much more to improve police | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
accountability and it is an opportunity that we need to grab. | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
Today I want to present a package of amendments which respond to the | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
historic verdict of the Hillsborough inquest that finally concluded, | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
after 27 years, what the families had known from day one that the loss | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
of their loved ones was not an accident, but they had been | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
unlawfully killed but that fact had been covered up for all of those | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
years. This package seeks to rebalance this country to make it | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
fairer. Rebalance it away from the establishment and in the favour of | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
ordinary families. A package that will stand as a permanent tribute to | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
the dignity and determination of the Hillsborough families because | :19:24. | :19:25. | |
knowing them, they would want nothing more than knowing that no | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
other family should go through what they have gone through. There is a | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
package of amendments here and let me take the House briefly through | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
them. New clause 63 would give bereaved families equal legal | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
funding for representation at inquests where the police are | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
involved. It seeks to establish that crucible principle that there should | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
be parity between the two sides and the reason why that is important is | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
because that says clearly that the public interest lies in finding the | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
truth and that is how public resources should be directed. Public | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
resources should not be directed to create an unbalanced inquest. I am | :20:11. | :20:23. | |
happy to confirm that the Liberal Democrats will support this | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
amendment and does he agree with me that had this been in place at the | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
time of the first inquest, then the truth might have emerged at that | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
stage rather than the families having to go through such a dire | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
long way to get to the truth? I am grateful to the honourable gentleman | :20:40. | :20:51. | |
for his support tonight. I think he is absolutely right and for calm on | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
to explain precisely how this would have helped even the playing field | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
and give the families the chance to get truth at the first time of | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
asking. The original inquest catastrophically failed on that | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
account and that needs to be very clearly understood as we considered | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
this amendment tonight. Amendment 126 seeks to close the loophole of | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
retirements being used as a route to evade misconduct proceedings by | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
police officers. New clause 64 seeks to hold the Government to its | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
promise to the victim 's press intrusion, to hold a second stage | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
enquiry looking at the culture of relations between police and the | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
press. New clause 66 seeks to legislate for a code of practice | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
with regard to the media relations policy of each individual police | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
force and seeks to spell out that unattributable briefings by police | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
forces as was so damaging in the case of Hillsborough is not | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
permitted unless it is in the most exceptional circumstances. | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
Amendments 127 seeks to strengthen the IPC C. New clause 67 which will | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
be considered later seeks to strengthen the offence of misconduct | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
in public office. Let me go through those amendments and I will start | :22:28. | :22:37. | |
with the area where there is greatest consensus and that is on | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
police misconduct. I listened carefully to what the Minister had | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
to say and I am grateful for the movement that he indicated to my | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
honourable friend in committee that there should not just be an | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
arbitrator for month period after retirement because as we know, | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
police wrongdoing may come to light much later than that. We are glad | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
that the Government has indicated that it is prepared to move on this | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
matter in the Other Place and bring an amendment to that effect. While I | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
will not push my amendment tonight I would still like to press the | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
Minister further because he is saying that that should be applied | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
in the most exceptional circumstances, but that seems to me | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
to rule out potentially many people who might be guilty of gross | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
misconduct but who then would not apply under his exceptional test. I | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
think he needs to reassure the House on this particular point. That is | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
why I offered to work closely with colleagues across the House on the | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
regulations. We don't bring everybody in but clearly understand | :23:58. | :23:59. | |
what exceptional is is very important. That in fact is a good | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
offer and I thank the Minister for it. I think we can move forward on | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
that basis. Hopefully we all know what we are trying to achieve here | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
and that is is serious wrongdoing comes to light about as individual | :24:17. | :24:25. | |
who is beyond 12 months retired it must be possible that proceedings | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
can be initiated. The amendment we have got down to Knight says it | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
should also be sanctions that will be applied to that individual and we | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
will want to insist on that point as well. If we can therefore agreed to | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
move forward on that basis, that for me seems to be like a considerable | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
piece of progress that I never matters greatly to the Hillsborough | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
families who felt very aggrieved as they were continuing their struggle, | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
when they saw individuals retired on a full pension and who they felt | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
were beyond reach and could not be held to account. Misconduct is | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
misconduct whenever it occurred and people should be held to account for | :25:09. | :25:18. | |
their action. For the Minister for coming partly to the position that | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
we believe should be taken, can we clarify one point. What we are | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
talking about is some serious, gross misconduct for police officers and | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
because we have mentioned Hillsborough, fair many people who | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
will spin that in regard to the conduct of officers, ordered Terri | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
officers at the Hillsborough disaster. In regards to ordinary | :25:43. | :25:52. | |
officers, there were no allegations against officers who performed | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
locally. It was the senior officers who let people down and then use the | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
opportunity to get away scot-free in regard to the copout of using ill | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
health. If the honourable gentleman wishes to make a speech he can stand | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
up when he wishes to indicate to do so but this is an intervention and | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
they must be shorter than that. It was a long one but it was a good one | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
and it was a very important point that my honourable friend was | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
making. I don't think there is any attempt here to blame ordinary | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
policemen and women and that is not the purpose of this amendment. It is | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
important for me to say very clearly today to those police officers out | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
there now keeping the streets safe that this is not an attack on them | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
and the point about this package is, this is about not allowing those | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
misdeeds in the past to take the present and to taint police officers | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
working today. That is such a crucial important point because if | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
you don't deal, if you don't deal properly with those allegations, you | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
allow it to contaminate the present and corrode trust in today's police | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
service and that is something that none of us in this House want. My | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
honourable friend was right to make the point that he did and that | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
cannot be stressed enough in bringing these amendments tonight. | :27:27. | :27:35. | |
The point that his colleague was making it absolutely right. If we | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
had not put the exceptional circumstances in, those sorts of | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
people could have been possibly captured and that is not what we are | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
looking at. What we are looking at is the people who should be brought | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
to justice and that is exactly what we should do. That is right. This is | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
about people who have been guilty of serious misconduct in the course of | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
their holding of public office and it is crucial that they cannot use | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
retirement as a means of evading accountability for that misconduct. | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
This change that the Minister appears to be agreeing to tonight | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
Ashley closes a very long-standing loophole and frustration for members | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
of the public. It does expose the police to considerably more | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
challenging regime but rightly so. Any profession needs to be held | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
accountable to the highest standard, so he is right. We will work with | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
him to get it right but I believe we can, but I stress again, this is | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
about upholding the reputation of the vast majority of police officers | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
who serve the public and serve it with distinction. If I may move onto | :28:56. | :29:05. | |
police press relations. To be honest, I think this is the biggest | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
area of unfinished... We haven't even started to make any changes | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
with respect to putting right the wrongs of Hillsborough because as we | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
know, that briefing of the press in those first days after the tragedy | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
caused incalculable harm and damage, not just to the families who had | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
lost loved ones but actually to the thousands of people like my | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
honourable friend who had returned from the match in the state of | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
trauma, only to read a couple of days later that the police were | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
blaming them for the death of their friends. And their family. That is | :29:51. | :29:59. | |
why feelings are so strong on this matter. Not just in Merseyside but | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
across the country. It cannot be right that a police force is able to | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
unattributable you to brief malicious information, unproven | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
information to a newspaper. That simply cannot be right and it must | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
be the case that we need a more, a stronger and more transparent regime | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
for press relations so that fourth impressions cannot be put out there | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
with the intention of setting a narrative about a particular | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
incident, because families who are fighting for justice can often find | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
that it is very difficult then to overturn the false version of | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
events. That was certainly the case for the Hillsborough families. I | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
totally agree with the points he is making but does he also agree with | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
me that one of the problems with Hillsborough was not just the off | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
record briefings but the on record briefings to get the narrative right | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
from the beginning which was part of the problem? I agree on both levels. | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
This was a cover-up that was perpetrated on the record, off the | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
record, in the committee rooms of this House. It went to the very top, | :31:20. | :31:28. | |
even to number ten Downing St. The head of press at the time briefed | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
tank top mob that caused the disaster. This cover-up went to the | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
highest level and what chance to ordinary families have when faced | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
with the might of the establishment seeking to perpetrate a lie on that | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
scale? It's a 27 year fight as we now know. This whole area is a major | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
unfinished piece of business. It is why we have suggested new | :31:59. | :32:15. | |
clause 66. He said he will work with us on new clause 66 and with the | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
College of the leasing and with the end PCC to get this right and I do | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
believe my honourable friend the lease Minister is having useful | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
discussions with them. They have responded in this area and they have | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
looked at the proper conduct the law of and we want to work with him to | :32:37. | :32:44. | |
get this absolutely right. If you look at a number of injustices down | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
the years there was an uncommon thread Europe where an unhealthy | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
relationship between police and press cancel the seeds for a | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
cover-up which becomes very difficult to overturn. Let me now | :32:56. | :33:06. | |
turn to new clause 64 which invites the House to reinforce the wrongness | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
that was made by the Prime Minister to the victims of press intrusion. | :33:13. | :33:22. | |
Let me go back to what was said. In November 20 12th the PM said this, | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
when I set out the inquiry, the leathers and inquiry, I also said | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
they would eat a second part to investigate wrongdoing in the press | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
and the lease. We remain committed to the inquiry as it was first | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
established. It is right that it should go ahead and that is truly | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
our intention. It was put to me that that wrongness was made face to face | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
before some of the victims of hacking and press intrusion, people | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
such as the McCanns and the family of Milly Dowler. It seems to us on | :33:58. | :34:06. | |
this side of the House that the government has subtly shifted its | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
position in the intervening years. As we just heard a moment ago from | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
the Minister, it is not a question of when the inquiry will go ahead at | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
if it will go ahead. The government are announcing that following the | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
conclusion of the outstanding investigations of this matter we | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
will then take a decision whether or not the second stage inquiry will go | :34:29. | :34:35. | |
ahead. I give way to my right honourable friend the chair of the | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
home affairs select committee. Thank you for giving way. The promise was | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
not just made to the victims and their families but also to the | :34:44. | :34:49. | |
chairs of the select committees in the room before the inquiry was | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
announced and he has absolutely right that it is important we get | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
Levenson, too. They be not with Levenson, with somebody else because | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
Levenson has moved on to do other things. There is nothing wrong with | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
the government beginning the process, choosing the chair of the | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
committee, getting the Mechanic 's together, we don't really have to | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
wait for the end of the criminal proceedings. I would wholeheartedly | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
agree with my honourable friend, Madam Deputy Speaker, because there | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
is a huge amount of unfinished business here. We know that these | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
issues are present in so many of the injustices that we see with their | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
has been inappropriate contact between police and press. We are | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
awaiting the conclusion of the Daniel Morgan panel which might test | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
illustrate some of these issues. It is true in other things as well. You | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
brought back the shoes break 74 and how the media where influenced in | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
that instance. There are many examples looking back in time of | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
death and part one of the Levenson inquiry found unhealthy links | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
between senior Met officers and newspapers. That led to the | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
resignation of the Met the lease chief and indeed others. The issue | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
cannot be left there. There have also been public officials and the | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
lease officers convicted of offences cause of these matters. -- police | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
officers. He had to answer explicitly today. It cannot be a | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
case now of wriggling out of a commitment. It is not a commitment | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
you can wriggle out to given everything they have been through. A | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
promise should be a promise to people who have suffered the way | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
victims of press intrusion have suffered. I know the Hillsborough | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
families feel exactly the same. They were victims of the biggest example | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
of police briefing of newspapers and it wasn't just one newspaper. It | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
will think it was just one newspaper that reported the lives but it was | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
many. The lies were given to whites newsagency in Sheffield and those | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
lies went around the world. This week I had the e-mail from someone | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
in the United States that said when they saw a recent BBC Two | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
Hillsborough documentary the red astonished to find the truth when | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
they thought for 20 years it was an example of hooliganism. It is | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
impossible to say the harm those lies caused. We need a better answer | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
than the one we have got. If he were to stand up now that this bag box | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
and say really to this House there will be a second stage inquiry into | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
the culture of relations between the lease and dress I would be the first | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
tonight to say we will not please amendment to a vote. -- police and | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
press. I would say to campaigners for just as they are being slowly | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
let down here and that is being slowly slid into the long grass and | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
we have had anonymous briefings from people close to the culture | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
secretary that it has been canned. We are not on their side of the | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
House prepared to accept that I would say to the minister unless he | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
can provide more directly issued and we will push this matter to a vote | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
this evening or that we forced the Prime Minister to honour his own | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
promise to the victims of breast intrusion and indeed hacking. On | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
that specific point the Prime Minister said we should do it | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
without further delay in March 13. The select committee be Secretary Of | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
State said they were awaiting a further government statement. | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
Wouldn't you think even though the use since the Prime Minister's | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
promise is far too long for many people who have been victims of | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
intrusion. I would say so. I can't see there is any doubt about this | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
have on the clarity of the statements the Prime Minister has | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
already given that I have read out. This was given not just to these | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
victims but also to senior parliamentarians, how can this be a | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
negotiate will commitment? I will give way again. I am grateful. The | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
culture secretary was in the room as the chair of the culture select | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
committee so he is very clear that a promise was made. Well, there you | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
go. That probably says it all. I think he seems to be in a different | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
mode these days but one wonders what deals have been done by the | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
government if they are preparing to unpick this agreement and we will be | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
watching very carefully. It is a fair point that there are ongoing | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
investigations. I take that point there are still investigations which | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
have a material impact on the issue we are investigating. It is not an | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
issue of us say we want it and we wanted to start right now. There are | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
matters to be concluded in the courts before the inquiry can | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
proceed. What we are after is the removal of any doubt that it will | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
proceed at the appropriate moment. That it will be honoured, that | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
promised that the Prime Minister gave to those victims. That is what | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
we are seeking to establish to night, but we are asking the House | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
to lay down very clearly. I think it goes beyond party politics. Those | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
families and victims have suffered enough and people on both sides of | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
the House or it to them to make good on a promise that was given to them | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
and that's why I look forward to members of both sides joining us in | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
the lobby tonight. Thank you for giving way. These families have | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
suffered enough. This House and this chamber has been united in that. | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
With the Shadow Minister not agree with me that statements from the | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
minister today, this second inquiry will go ahead to put an end to | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
suffering from these families, they have suffered enough, let this be | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
the end. My honourable friend would sit very well. This is it. This is | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
what I have seen working with the Hillsborough families fighting for | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
justice and others, too. It is not just the initial trauma that they | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
suffer that affects them, it is how the system grinds them down | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
afterwards, take them fight for everything, it doesn't give them an | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
inch and slowly drains the life out of them. How cool is that? It is | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
just wrong that the machine of government thinks it can operate in | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
that way. I was speaking to a family today that I will go on to mention | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
any minute, going to a meeting with 14 lawyers around the table and just | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
a couple of family members. It is not right. Those of us who have been | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
ministers have seen that style. It is time to change it. Don't make | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
these families fight for everything. Get the skills in the favour away | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
from the powerful, why not? I don't know what happened with other | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
ministers, I have never sat in on these meetings but anyone who has a | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
meeting with me as Minister now it is not the way I operate and never | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
have. I have bought a lot of time for the Minister and he knows that | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
however, if they are listening to this debate today, I see my | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
honourable friend from Hull is not in but if the victims of | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
contaminated blood was listening to this debate today I think the would | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
immediately recognise what I am saying. Victims of organophosphate | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
poisoning, sheep dip, they will understand what I am saying today. | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
People waiting for the announcement on the battle of Orgreave | :43:17. | :43:18. | |
investigation will understand what I am saying. There are people who have | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
not an given justice by the system out there. It is just not right, it | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
really is not right and that is why I keep say we must make Hillsborough | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
a moment of change their wee tip the scales in favour of ordinary | :43:38. | :43:39. | |
families and away from the establishment. I think the position | :43:40. | :43:46. | |
of old site has been made perfectly clear, I would like to act as peace | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
broker. Could there be an exception to act as Levenson. Could that not | :43:53. | :44:01. | |
be given today? That would be good enough if we got a cast-iron | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
commitment. We have reintroduced the doubt. There have been media | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
briefings saying it will probably not go ahead now so they are the | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
ones who have muddied the waters. If they were to clarify that tonight | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
that would be good enough. If they were to say it will go ahead after | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
the proper time has elapsed given the criminal proceedings that are | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
still outstanding then fine, everyone would understand that. If | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
they would give the commitment to night that they would be no need for | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
a vote then fine we have done our job. If they cannot do that it is | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
revealing in itself. If they cannot reaffirm that commitment to the | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
people they have already given that commitment to that is revealing in | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
itself and why we are right to bring evil in those circumstances so that | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
those people are not being strung along in the hope that one day there | :44:53. | :44:59. | |
will be a Levenson to. They are being held to account which is what | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
we are doing tonight. They have the chance to do it and say they will | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
honour what they said. If they don't members of decency and integrity on | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
both sides of the House we want to stand with us and hold them to | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
account for their own promise that they need. Finally, let me turn if I | :45:19. | :45:30. | |
may to new clause... I have forgotten the number of it now! The | :45:31. | :45:39. | |
clause on parity, what is the number of it, 63. That took a while! The | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
point I would want to say introducing this clause which seeks | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
to establish the principle of parity of legal funding for bereaved | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
families at inquests involving the lease. The one thing I want to say | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
at the beginning is it is very important people do not see | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
Hillsborough as a one of that belongs to a forgotten either. To be | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
honest many bereaved families still face a very similar experience to | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
date when they go to an inquest. He often find they are pitched into an | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
adversarial and aggressive courtroom still wrought with grief, unable to | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
match the spending of the lease or public sector on their own legal | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
representation and they find their lives get picked apart and they get | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
made to look like they are indeed the perpetrators, not the victims. | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
This is a very common experience and many of the people who suffer that | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
experience do not have the backing, the huge support that the | :46:42. | :46:42. | |
Hillsborough families have. That is like this principle is so | :46:43. | :47:00. | |
tremendously important. His remarks will be heard by ritual guns, the | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
daughter of Fillmore Mills, who was killed when he was in hospital while | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
he was being restrained by the police, but I've had another | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
constituent who has raised an issue in relation to his mother who was a | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
victim of her children being abducted by their father, who spent | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
nearly two decades without being able to contact her children. He is | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
currently litigating against the police and feels a similar kind of | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
bereavement while he has been kept away from his brothers and sisters | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
while his mother has been kept from her children, and he hoped that this | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
kind of approach could enable people like him who are taking cases | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
against the police to be able to get access to some kind of resource. | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
With that be possible? That is exactly the point that lies behind | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
this amendment today, because she has just made my point that we will | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
all have in our own experiences these examples where we know | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
families that have been at inquests and it has been a highly | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
unsatisfactory experience, where they did not get legal support. The | :48:22. | :48:32. | |
public spectre spend taxpayer's money like water, hiring the best | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
QCs and defend their reputations and their backs and the ordinary | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
families are scrabbling around, remortgaging the House, doing | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
whatever they can do to put up some kind of fight against that. How | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
wrong is that? Public money should pay to establish the truth and that | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
shows there should be parity between the two sides in that process. There | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
should not be the case where you have the public sector packing the | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
court room with these highly paid qui QCs and that is an important | :49:05. | :49:13. | |
principle to establish and if there was to be one lasting legacy to | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
Hillsborough, this should be it. I was tempted to make this point | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
before by the right honourable gentleman for North Norfolk. If the | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
Hillsborough families had been represented by Michael Mansfield, | :49:29. | :49:36. | |
there is no chance that that cruel and inhumane 315 cut-off would have | :49:37. | :49:44. | |
been allowed to stand. Have we ever had a situation where bereaved | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
families are told you cannot have information about what happened to | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
your loved ones in their dying minutes? Have we ever had a | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
situation before after 27 years they were finally told who gave them the | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
kiss of life, who carried them over the pitch? What an affront to | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
justice is that but it was allowed to stand because they could not have | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
somebody to challenge it. Margaret Aspinall, chair of the Hillsborough | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
Family Support Group, came to Parliament to deliver a personal | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
reflection of what it was like back in those days all those years ago | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
and I am grateful to all members who attended and I'm sure they will | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
agree it was an intensely moving occasion. Margaret described the | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
indescribable pain when she was sent to check of just over ?1000 which | :50:37. | :50:46. | |
was compensation for her son James. She had to put that with the legal | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
fund. It wasn't enough because she had the cost of travelling to the | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
inquest, to Sheffield every day. She was absolutely living on the bread | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
line because she was having to borrow money from her family, her | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
mother to make it all work. How can that be right for families in these | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
circumstances when they have not done anything wrong, to find | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
themselves in that situation? It cannot be right that they are | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
scratching and saving and doing all those things when taxpayers's money | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
is being paid to do them down the other side. He is right to highlight | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
the inequality of arms between families and the state and he will | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
note that he has campaigned tirelessly on this issue. An inquest | :51:40. | :51:47. | |
may not happen for five or six years, in which time all sorts of | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
untruths can flourish but it can only be recorded in the statistics | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
as having taken a year. That is right. It is that delay that is | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
often used to grind people down further. It does not work. I think | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
we as a parliament have to decide we prepared to let people carry on | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
going through this entirely unsatisfactory process? I don't we | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
should. You can see in the experience of people today the | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
parallels with the experience of the Hillsborough families. Let's give a | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
recent example. There is a young boy who died in 2014 in the floods, in | :52:33. | :52:49. | |
his home in Surrey. Where hydrogen cyanide was brought into the House | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
from a former landfill site that was not properly sealed. The inquest | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
starts today and it is a very high profile case. But the family has | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
been turned down three times now for legal aid. This is an ordinary | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
family that were going about their business and all of a sudden, their | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
son is dead and the father is in a wheelchair. This inquest starts | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
today and the only reason they have got quality legal representation is | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
because there was an anonymous ?25,000 donation given to the family | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
on Friday. I put it to the people across the House, that cannot | :53:34. | :53:43. | |
possibly be right. The right honourable gentleman will also know | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
that when being assessed for financial support, it is not just | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
the image at family that has finances looked at, it is also the | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
extended family as well. Extraordinarily unfair and I have to | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
say, I think his government has made it an affair with the cops to legal | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
aid because people are not just getting through now. They are not | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
getting funding when they are applying. They are being | :54:12. | :54:13. | |
unrepresented at these inquests and that cannot be right. I accept that | :54:14. | :54:23. | |
cases like Hillsborough required a lot of input from lawyers but | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
someone who has a knee jerk reaction that we should not be feeding | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
lawyers, does he think it is a possibility in other cases that the | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
chief coroner could lay down rules that the other side should be either | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
given legal representation or the other side are told they are not | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
needed? If he looks at the way we have constructed our amendment, it | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
is designed to develop the same effect. It is designed to say there | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
should be parity of legal funding and that is an incentive for the | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
public sector not to spend too much, because if it has to fund the | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
families as well, it may bring down the legal bill, it may not add | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
further costs. Now we have the choice coroner and in the past, the | :55:17. | :55:26. | |
coroner's Bill, some recognition of parity would be welcome but I've got | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
to say, the knee jerk reaction these days is to get a lawyer involved. In | :55:35. | :55:42. | |
some cases you may not need it. Do you know what we need? We need | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
inquisitorial inquests rather than adversarial inquests because with | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
the case of Hillsborough, the Lord Chief Justice made a very specific | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
ruling when he quashed the original inquest and he said that the new | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
inquest he hoped given the fact that police had clearly tainted the | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
evidence, should not degenerate into an adversarial battle, but that is | :56:07. | :56:14. | |
exactly what happened. At public expense, and individual particularly | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
hired to represent the former officers, a Mr John Beggs went into | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
that court room and repeated all kinds of lies at public expense and | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
innuendo about the supporters of Liverpool football club. We | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
witnessed it. It was a particularly unpleasant thing to witness but it | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
is even more galling to know that we are paying for that and this brings | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
me on to this final point. It is not just the cost of all of this, it is | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
the way that the manner in which people are questioned that is also | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
so gross and so unjust. Let me give a final example. After a long fight | :57:00. | :57:07. | |
by her family, the House will note that an inquest was recently held | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
into the death of Cheryl James who died at the geek at barracks in | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
Surrey. The QC acting for the Surrey Police was the same Mr John Beggs. I | :57:17. | :57:24. | |
know from speaking to Cheryl's family that they were deeply hurt by | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
an intrusive and aggressive line of questioning that focused on a number | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
of varied personal questions and they were particularly hurt by an | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
untrue allegation that was levelled at them, that Mr James had made a | :57:39. | :57:46. | |
number of enquiries to Surrey Police and as a result according to Mr | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
Beggs had distracted the police from the mini Dowler investigation. That | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
is what was said. Can you imagine how he felt when he heard that? | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
Trying to just get to the truth as to what happened to his daughter and | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
finding himself the subject of an outrageous, appalling slur like that | :58:09. | :58:14. | |
which in fact the Dowler family, such is their decency, stepped in to | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
correct. It should not be like this. It really must not be like this. We | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
have a situation where any police force in the land, they have | :58:24. | :58:29. | |
instruction to hired this individual if they feel they are in a tight | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
spot. They pay great amounts of public money to do this. It should | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
not be allowed to carry on, it should be called time on today. I | :58:40. | :58:45. | |
think that type of adversarial inquest is wrong but is it not | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
something again, the chief coroner could lay down in guidance to | :58:52. | :59:01. | |
coroners to stop that behaviour. It does not help to get to the truth | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
and I think my honourable friend is making a good point. I cannot see | :59:06. | :59:13. | |
why the Government would not accept a bill proposed by Lord will that | :59:14. | :59:23. | |
would create an office at national level of an individual support | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
bereaved families so that each family does not have to reinvent the | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
wheel and go through all be learning to get ready for an inquest. That is | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
another good proposal. I will finish on this point. There is a very | :59:39. | :59:44. | |
simple principle that we are seeking to establish here and in the words | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
of Mr James, it is about parity of arms. If there is going to be an | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
adversarial battle in the courtroom, at least give bereaved families the | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
same ability to defend themselves as the public sector have. I feel this | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
is an unanswerable principle and I am sorry the Government has decided | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
it cannot support this tonight. I note they are waiting for the | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
conclusion of this chip James's report but this is than | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
Hillsborough. This is much bigger than Hillsborough. This goes through | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
a whole number of families who are facing injustice of a similar kind | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
today. It has got to be the case, has it not, that public money should | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
fund the establishment of the truth and particularly help people get to | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
the truth at the first time of asking. Why? Because that should be | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
used by public bodies to learn, to look at where they went wrong, to | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
see where they went wrong. Instead they go into these courtrooms to | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
defend themselves, reputations and spend large amounts of taxpayers's | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
money. I would hope the Government would agree with the spirit with | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
what I am saying tonight. If they do agree with the spirit, I would hope | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
they would give a clear commitment this evening that they support the | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
aim of parity funding for families at inquest and from there, hopefully | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
we might be able to move forward but from what I gather, they have not | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
done enough from my point of view and I am afraid to say to the | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
Minister, unless he is able to provide that level of reassurance, | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
we will press this amendment to a vote tonight because we are | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
determined to make health for a moment of real change in this | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
country. It must be a watershed when power shifts towards the hands of | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
ordinary people and away from those in positions of power. | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
That is what people are expecting this Parliament to do. We cannot | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
face a 27 year injustice and then feel we do not have two act, we can | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
carry on as we wear, we cannot. Ordinary people are facing in | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
justice today and I been ground down as the battle to get the truth and | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
justice. Let's do the right thing tonight Madame deputies eager, I | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
call on all sides of the House to support the package we are putting | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
forward tonight and in doing so let's finally make this country a | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
fairer country where power is more evenly shared among people from all | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
backgrounds. We have about 90 minutes before wind-up starts and I | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
think we have eight members wishing to speak in this debate. I don't | :02:37. | :02:45. | |
criticise the shadow Secretary for one moment for speaking for 45 | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
minutes, he had a lot to say. He knows a lot about the believed | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
families of Hillsborough and all that goes with that so I don't want | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
to criticise him for that what I would do if I may generally before I | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
come on to talk about new clause 23, is perhaps, and I don't know the | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
sill that he referred to but I've never met him, he referred to him | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
twice and accused him of unattractive conduct, speaking on | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
instructions he did not go in there I would assume in line with the | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
tradition and professional standards of the bark laboratory to attack | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
people. He was acting for the two public authorities on the two | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
separate occasions and it was his duty to put those clients' case. It | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
may have been an unattractive case and we come across as deeply | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
upsetting to the people he was cross-examining but it was his | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
recessional duty to do that. It might be that another man might have | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
done it differently or another client might have given different | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
instructions but I think it is a bit mean to call out a particular artist | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
here in the House of Commons. I don't want to be distracted because | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
we have a very short space of time. I just want to defend the method I | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
which the profession as to represent his clients. That aside, I don't | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
have much to criticise the Shadow Home Secretary for. What I do want | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
to do is quickly in the short space of time available dock about new | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
clause 23 which is a new clause which will require the removal of | :04:32. | :04:39. | |
the requirement for prior authorisation exempting in the | :04:40. | :04:49. | |
existing section 60 eight 80 in the -60 double A. They remove items | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
where they are used for the purpose of concealed identities. The context | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
in which I and about 22 other honourable members of this House | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
have tabled this new clause goes back to the criminal Justice and | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
Public order act of the NT 94 where under section 60 of that act | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
Parliament gave the police the power we are an officer at the rank of | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
inspector or more senior reasonably leaved that incidents involving | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
serious violence may take place in any locality in his police area as | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
an expedient to give authorisation to prevent. Or that people are | :05:40. | :05:47. | |
carrying offensive weapons in the locality without good reason, that | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
in Europe police officer might give an authorisation that items can be | :05:51. | :06:00. | |
exercised in that locality foray specially specified amount of time | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
not more than 24 hours. Geographically limited and | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
time-limited for the police to do certain things. That was extended in | :06:14. | :06:24. | |
2001 by the addition of section 60AA which gave the lease in that | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
geographical for that limited time to require the removal of disguises | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
and so, provided there was prior authorisation and that authorisation | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
was written and it was for 24 hours or ethics tended by another officer | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
for another 24 hours, within that limited location the constable in | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
uniform was enabled to require any person to remove an item which he | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
believes is being worn wholly or mainly for the purpose of concealing | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
his identity. So, it wasn't until 2001 that the 94 act was amended to | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
allow the police in certain limited circumstances to be authorised to | :07:14. | :07:21. | |
deal with disguises. In 2011 you will remember that the where | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
widespread riots throughout the country in August of that year and | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
following those riots the government issued a consultation paper to | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
consider whether the things needed to be looked at. Firstly it dealt | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
with the use of the word insulting in the public order act. Actually it | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
looked that new powers to request the removal of face coverings and | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
thirdly Edward that new powers to impose curfews. The reason why the | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
government thought it appropriate to consult in relation to new powers | :08:01. | :08:10. | |
over disguises and so forth is that, and it says here in the document, | :08:11. | :08:17. | |
the consultation aims to progress the commitment made by the Prime | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
Minister with request to the removal of face coverings. The government | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
announced that the police would be given extended powers to demand the | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
removal of face coverings and any circumstances where there was | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Interestingly, the | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
government didn't respond to this consultation other than with | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
relation to insulting words and behaviour and the law was amended in | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
that regard. However, as regards the power to reply to removal of face | :08:53. | :09:01. | |
coverings it was dated back to 2001. As I said, this power is | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
geographically limited, time-limited and requires prior authorisation. | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
I've had the benefit of two meetings now with my right honourable friend | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
the Minister and he very generously allowed me and two of my honourable | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
friends to try to persuade him that the law needed to be changed. On | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
this occasion there were only eight officials in the room but he was | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
unpersuaded it seems to me on the advice he had been given by official | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
police officers that a change in the law was necessary. Indeed it was | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
suggested to me that our new clause could weaken the police powers to | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
remove disguises. The thing we need to realise is that the people who | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
attend demonstrations waiting Alec Lavers, winning face coverings, are | :09:53. | :10:01. | |
not doing it simply to avoid their identities being discovered. Clearly | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
if you go to a demonstration at which a lawful activity is going on | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
and the police are able to film it and whether it is local authority | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
CCTV cameras covering it, the is no better way of avoiding detection or | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
avoiding being caught than by disguising your face cause, | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
essentially, in most criminal cases, not all, but most criminal cases, | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
the identity of the perpetrator is a fairly central part of the | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
prosecutor 's case. I am reasonably sure that in the days when people | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
used to run into banks with shotguns and hold it up normally waving a | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
stocking over the face, they were not wearing silk stockings on the | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
ahead because they liked the feel of silk on their face, they were | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
weaving these sill stockings or even tights and therefore nylon over at | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
the faces, in order to prevent their being discovered. The same thing, I | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
suspect, goes for people who are intent upon pretty unattractive | :11:04. | :11:09. | |
behaviour in the streets here in London, in Manchester at the last | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
Conservative Party conference with people in masks at at delegates | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
going into the conference hall. They also do it to intimidate. There is | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
nothing more intimidating than seeing somebody covered like that | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
coming at you or demonstrating with a view to causing trouble. Yes, of | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
course, the outlawed already on the statute book which make it possible | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
for a police officer to go in and arrest somebody waving a facemask if | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
he is committing an offence that in the event that this is a large-scale | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
demonstration, in the event there are not enough police officers to | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
make it safe or practical for that police officer to go in and | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
therefore police need to lie on video evidence or film evidence of | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
the perpetrator, it strikes me as unreal for a police officer to rely | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
on the existing power of limited geographical nature, a limited time | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
structure, in order to get in and deal with the matter. Is he getting | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
restless? I am conscious I may not have time but he indicated earlier I | :12:25. | :12:29. | |
was not persuaded. I did listen very much to the lease officers but I | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
also want to indicate no the is a stop and search review coming up | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
later this year and we would insert face coverings into that review so | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
we have a better understanding. I think that is a significant | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
concession. That is a change in attitude and I am grateful but I am | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
not sure reviews is what we need. My understanding is that the police do | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
not want this change because they think the powers they have are | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
adequate for what they need to do but it isn't because these events | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
are happening. People are being terrified, people are being | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
inhibited from going about their lawful is this in the countryside | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
and in urban areas and it is not good enough for us to rely for a | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
change in the lease code or a change following some review. The | :13:27. | :13:32. | |
government did not reply to its own consultation in 2011. I need to | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
press the government to get this matter properly ventilated. One of | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
the jobs I have in Parliament is to express the concerns of the public | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
from my own constituency and other parts of the public who are | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
dissatisfied about the level of police activity in policing this | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
sort of behaviour. A review is nothing to do with what the police | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
actually want. When we did a review of stop and search because it would | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
be inappropriate that is why there was a review. If we thought it was | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
being used anyway my constituents would not expect them peace will be | :14:15. | :14:22. | |
changed. Reviews do not come up very often, this is a golden opportunity. | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
I will look forward to seeing the terms of the review that my right | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
honourable friend has look forward and I trust him when he says it is | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
going to be useful but right out constituents in rural and in urban | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
areas are very distressed at the way in which face masks are used to | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
terrify and to hide criminal activity rather the identities of | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
criminals. The sooner we get this matter debated and debated with | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
reasonable time to contribute to the discussions on the floor of this | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
House or in the other place... I am grateful to my right honourable | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
friend. As he knows I1 of the co-signatories on his amendment. The | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
problem with the situation at the moment is the constable on duty they | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
require a face covering to be removed but he does then require | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
post-authorisation from a senior officer on duty and I think in both | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
the lack will case and in my own place in the badger cull where | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
somebody was art any car late at night for several nights with masks | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
on to deliberately intimidate residents in the nearest farmhouse I | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
am not sure whether the constables on duty knew whether they would get | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
that prior or post-authorisation and this was will make it crystal clear | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
if it is passed into this ill. I am grateful for the support. I hope | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
this new clause will make it easier for them to do what they have to do | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
which is arrest frightening people who are intent on doing criminal | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
things. The problem, it seems to me, and it is clear on the face of | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
section 60 and 60AA which is a problem which was removed by our new | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
clause if the need prior authorisation. It may be that has a | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
matter of practice that is ignored and if it is ignored it would | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
suggest to media art leaving on lawfully when they give themselves | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
host of forestry and write it down in a notebook. | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
That isn't, it seems to me, what the current legislation requires. We | :16:31. | :16:39. | |
need to bring this to a close now and also to ensure that the police | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
are given the powers that the public believe they should have, in order | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
to prevent this disgusting behaviour from continuing. I writes for the | :16:48. | :16:58. | |
SNP principally to place on record our unending admiration for the | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
honourable member for Lee and other members on both sides of the chamber | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
who have fought this righteous fight for so many years, for so many | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
people who have been lied to and have been subject to the most | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
horrendous cover up. I echo pretty much all of the roads -- words that | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
he said at the dispatch box earlier. Football is very important for | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
people in Scotland, as the Right Honourable member will understand. | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
We send more people to football games per head of population than | :17:28. | :17:36. | |
anywhere else in the UK than everyone can understand the fear of | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
setting a loved one store football game and I'm not returning. Things | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
like the Ibrox disaster are scarred into Scottish consciousness and we | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
are committed to helping the honourable member for Lee to try get | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
justice to all those people. The police system in Scotland is a | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
devolved area and we are not perhaps able to offer any support other than | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
in principle this evening, but I would just like to place that on | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
record and wish him, his colleagues all the best for their fight for | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
justice. Thank you for calling me to speak in this debate. I would like | :18:15. | :18:21. | |
to speak to new clause 20 29, 32 and 43, all tabled in my name. I will | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
try to be brief. Can I thank the honourable lady, my honourable | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
friend for Staffordshire Moorlands for all the time she has taken in | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
the past few weeks to discuss my concerns with me and I would like to | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
thank my right honourable friend for Hemel Hempstead who has made himself | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
available to me and I would also like to thank the Home Secretary. As | :18:38. | :18:54. | |
you will know there is significant concern around the interaction | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
between policing and mental health services and it is these issues that | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
I wish to turn my attention to. New clause 26 places an obligation for | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
chief constables to ensure that their police officers are properly | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
trained in diversity and in equality in relation to mental health issues | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
and specifically the issues that relate to ethnic minorities. I have | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
worked very closely over the past five years with black mental health | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
UK and they have raised these concerns directly with the Home | :19:26. | :19:28. | |
Office and members for a number of years and I would like to read this | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
paragraph out from their briefing. The joint Home Office and Department | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
of Health revenue section 13513 sex of the Mental Health Act 1993 | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
acknowledged that in particular black African Caribbean men are | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
disproportionately overrepresented in section 136 detentions, compared | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
to the general population, and that black African Caribbean men in | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
particular reported the use of force was more likely to be used against | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
them by the police. These are legitimate and real concerns and | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
they have been subject to academic research and they need to be | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
addressed. I would say that nearly three years ago the Home Secretary | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
hosted a fantastic conference at the QE2 Centre, co-hosted with black | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
mental health UK and my right honourable friend from Hemel | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
Hempstead spoke there and great strides are being made but we need | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
to make sure further progress happens in the months and years | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
ahead. New clause 26 requires the chief police officer to notify ad | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
make an annual report to the Home Secretary as to what progress has | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
been made in relation to diversity and equality training. I am not | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
going to push this to the vote tonight but I have had assurances | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
from ministers that this will be looked at seriously and my | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
honourable friend is wishing to catch my attention. Thank you. This | :20:57. | :21:03. | |
goes to the heart of the concept of policing by consent. I don't think | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
anybody who has had policing -- involvement in policing will be | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
unaware of the friction that exists between policing in many members of | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
the UK black communities. Does he agree with me that an explicit step | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
in this direction would go a long way to build bridges between UK | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
policing and a very significant minority group in the UK. I agree | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
with my right honourable friend and that is why I am delighted that my | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
concerns have received such close attention from the government and | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
the Treasury front bench and will continue to receive attention. I am | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
looking forward to further updates in relation to this matter. The | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
government is working very closely with black mental health UK and its | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
principal and I hope those conversations continue. I did say I | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
would try and be five minutes and I did stray a little bit over that but | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
I do want to make progress. New clause 29 relates to access to legal | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
advice before someone is detained under the Mental Health Act 19 83. I | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
know that the opposition has tabled a new clause 24 which relates to | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
advocacy. 29 is a probing amendment but the removal of someone's liberty | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
should never happen lightly and again there is a great concern | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
amongst the African Caribbean community and black mental health | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
that if you are a black male, and a young, black male in particular you | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
are more likely to have your liberty removed. This is a genuine request | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
but I am not sure if it is delivering -- deliverable because | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
often in section a new operating in a highly stressed situation on the | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
needs of the individual who is ill at the time should be central to | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
that sectioning but it does give voice to a very real concern and I | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
am interested in the opposition's new clause 24 in relation to | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
advocacy. Advocacy is often talked about but it is not delivered in the | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
way it should be and this is an issue that might front bench is | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
aware. I want to turn to new clause 42 and 43 which relate to the | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
deployment of police officers on the wards and the use of Taser is. I am | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
well aware that the right honourable gentleman for North Norfolk will be | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
speaking to new clause 40, which is connected to this. I cannot be | :23:30. | :23:37. | |
absolutist in my approach to this. I know black mental health never wants | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
to see police officers used on mental health wards and I would | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
share that view but I think there will always be occasions where that | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
possibility will remain, but when the police officers are detained -- | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
deployed to mental health wards I really do believe there should be an | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
almost immediate notification to the Police and Crime Commissioners and | :24:03. | :24:03. | |
the Independent Police Complaints Commission that the deployment has | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
taken place and I know that Home Office ministers are working very | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
closely with Department of Health, collating battered statistics about | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
the use of force and restraint, but we cannot wait 365 days before | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
receiving this information. This information, when police are | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
deployed on mental health wards, needs to be made available | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
immediately. Immediately. Again, I have received assurances from the | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
front that work will be done on this and I know that time is short but I | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
hope in summing up today the front bench will be able to reassure | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
myself and black mental health that work is being done on this. Finally | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
it is the use of Taser is on mental health wards. My right honourable | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
friend is with great justification and passion going to argue that | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
Taser 's should never be used on mental health wards and my heart is | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
with him on those arguments but my head says there may be some highly | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
charged situations where a Tasered does need to be used but right now | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
we know they are being used but we are not collating or collecting the | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
information and there is no way for the house to find out what is going | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
on. Where are Taser is used, and I hope it is never used, but in the | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
event where it is used then the report has to be made within one | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
week to the Police and Crime Commissioner and the Independent | :25:33. | :25:33. | |
Police Complaints Commission. I am not suggesting for a minute that any | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
police officer will follow this course of action lightly but we must | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
remember that we are talking about safe hospital environments where a | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
Taser and forces being used. I have received assurances from the | :25:49. | :25:50. | |
government front bench in relation to this and I hope they can refer to | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
those assurances in the wind-up. I am sorry I have gone on for a little | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
longer than I said I would. I would finally draw the front bench | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
attention to a trial in Los Angeles where Taser 's are linked to body | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
cameras by Bluetooth so immediately a Taser is drawn, the camera starts | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
recording and it does not need to be manually started by the police | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
officer and as soon as the Taser is drawn the recording starts and that | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
could be something the Home Office would like to look at. I apologise | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
for speaking longer than I said I would. It is a pleasure to follow | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
the honourable member for Broxbourne who has raised so many important | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
issues that actually the time that the needs and this house leads to | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
discuss all of these issues is not sufficient in a debate of this kind. | :26:41. | :26:47. | |
I want to concentrate on just two aspects of the amendments. Two | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
amendments that have been put as part of the list stage of the bill, | :26:50. | :26:57. | |
and combine my remarks to those two. The first relates to the decision by | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
the government to accept the representations of the home affairs | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
committee to place an initial 28 day limit on precharge bail. I am sorry | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
that the Minister has left the chamber because I wanted to pay | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
tribute to him for the fact that he is one of the very few ministers | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
that we have encountered who actually writes back to the select | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
committee and says that the government is going to adopt some of | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
the recommendations that we have made. He did so in respect of 28 | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
day, a 28 day limit on precharge bail and we have raised this on a | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
number of issues and a number of cases, the most recently being our | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
report on police bail which considered the case of Mr Paul | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
Gambaccini, and the need for there to be some kind of end to the | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
extension of police bail, which just goes on and on without there being | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
any limits. This is very welcome and I think very important. The next new | :27:56. | :28:03. | |
clause I want to concentrate on is new clause 22, which is the | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
surrender of travel documentation. My honourable friend, the member for | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
Birmingham Erdington, I don't know if you will be speaking to this new | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
clause when it comes to wind-up, but I support it very strongly and it | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
goes a long way to putting into law our concerns about terrorist | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
suspects who are able to leave the country without giving up their | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
passports, or even being asked for their passports. The committee in | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
our evidence sessions concerning the review that we are doing into | :28:38. | :28:46. | |
counterterrorism, the counter narrative, took interesting evidence | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
from the sister of a man who fled the United Kingdom while he was on | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
police bail and despite being asked politely by the police to send in | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
his passport, by the time he had received that letter, well, he never | :29:00. | :29:05. | |
received that letter because he had left the country, after being | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
released from the country -- police bail, so he never got the polite | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
letter because he was already in Syria by then. What the government | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
is proposing in the legislation is very welcome but new clause 22 goes | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
a little bit further and I hope very much that we will get the government | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
to change its mind and access to the wording of new clause 22, because it | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
is very much in keeping with the evidence given to us by the head of | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
counterterrorism, when he said that when someone surrenders a passport | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
immediately then they are able to, at least the police and security | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
services know where that passport is, and if they breach that | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
requirement, in other words if they don't hand over their passport, of | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
course they would be in breach of bail. The Prime Minister... | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
Certainly. I thank the right honourable gentleman and I | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
understand that in my absence he said something nice about me so it | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
is probably a good idea that I wasn't here. Is he aware that the | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
police have the powers now, when granting police bail, to go with the | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
individual and physically take the passport or travel document before | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
they actually release them? They do indeed, but in this particular case | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
they did not do it and it is a problem. We don't know how many | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
cases because this is the one we know about. It came into the public | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
domain and he ended up on a video on YouTube, telling us what he was | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
doing. There could be other cases but people are not very open about | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
admitting mistakes so it may have happened before and I except that | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
and I think enshrining it in legislation, as is proposed by new | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
clause 22 is very helpful. My second point out my final point relates to | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
new clause 64, moved by the Shadow Home Secretary, the important of | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
Leveson Report two. I was chair of the select committee who met with | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
the Prime Minister along with the then chair of the culture committee | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
and the secretary of state now, Lord Alan Beith, when he chaired the | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
Justice committee. The three chairs of those committees were called to | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
see the Prime Minister when he was about to announce the establishment | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
of the first leather sling where it. We accepted his arguments because he | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
made very good arguments because actually we should have two | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
enquiries as of one and he made a promise we would have a second | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
enquiry once the first one had been completed. Before the first leather | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
sling enquiry started I went to see Lord Justice Leveson and he said he | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
did not think he would be around in the position he was in to have a | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
second enquiry. He is now doing other things and it will take a | :32:04. | :32:05. | |
number of years but I accept what the Home Secretary said to the | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
committee on the 16th of December when she gave evidence to us and she | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
said there were two cases outstanding and until those two | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
cases are outstanding than she did not think they could start a macro | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
32-macro. We have now found their ears, I don't know if it is those | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
two cases embedded with the Minister can tell us the number, but there | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
are still outstanding matters that need to be considered. | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
There is no reason why we should not have a second Leveson Inquiry. We | :32:32. | :32:42. | |
can't start that process, appointing a chair of the committee, getting | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
the mechanics together, perhaps having a panel as he did with the | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
first inquiry, but we get that whole recess started and then when the | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
legal proceedings have been concluded, the Home Secretary can | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
come to the chamber, or the Prime Minister, and say they are | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
concluded, we will now start the second inquiry. Why wait for that | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
old to be concluded first before starting that process? I think that | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
will give comfort not just to those who fought so hard in the | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
Hillsborough case but also to other people, members of the public, some | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
of whom have had helicopters flying over their houses when they happen | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
to be abroad because of the relationship between the police and | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
the press. We only get to know about the high-profile cases. There is a | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
very good reason why we should have this second inquiry. I hope very | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
much that will be done. The honourable member for Dumfries | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
Galloway offered to be the honest broker between the Government and | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
opposition. He came up with a form of words which the Shadow Home | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
Secretary was prepared to accept. I don't know whether there will be | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
discussions behind your chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, but there is the | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
opportunity to avert the need for a vote. The Government only needs to | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
say we will have it but not yet. Therefore we can proceed to go onto | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
report stage and third reading without the fighting -- dividing the | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
House on the important changes to policing which the Government is | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
proposing. A lot of which we accept, I accept of being -- as being part | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
and parcel of the way we modernise our police force. It is perhaps | :34:41. | :34:47. | |
appropriate to follow the chair of the Home Affairs Committee because I | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
am conscious that my predecessor as chair of the justice Select | :34:52. | :34:53. | |
Committee was present when those assurances were given. I don't doubt | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
the good intentions of the right honourable Minister on the bench and | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
I'm prepared to cut the Government 's lack. But there is an important | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
point, which is this. It is not purely the high-profile cases which | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
are of concern of many professionals in the justice system. He spoke | :35:15. | :35:23. | |
about the impact of Hillsborough and scandals of that kind but equally of | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
concerns to lawyers, like myself for 25 years, is the long-term | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
day-to-day causing us of relationships which develop, I'm | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
sorry to say, between police officers, not necessarily the | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
highest level, and reporters. There is a risk unless something is done | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
to deal with that, there can be concerns about potential | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
miscarriages of justice. It is not purely something coming on the back | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
of the headline catching. There is a more insidious culture which can | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
only be dealt with by very firm management by the leadership of the | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
police service. If that is not lacking, and it needs to be looked | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
at in the appropriate format, there is no doubt any practitioner at the | :36:12. | :36:23. | |
bar will now that surprisingly the local press have been aware that a | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
particular person was going to be arrested and a particular search was | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
going to be carried out. I'm afraid that cannot happen accidentally. I | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
think there is an issue of general concern. I will turn to new clause | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
23 which I have been a signatory to. I accept that the minister wants to | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
take this forward but I must say I agree with the sentiments expressed | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
by my right honourable friend the member for Harborough and what I | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
would briefly add to it is this. It is certainly true that there is | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
inevitably a reluctance by officials, I used to find that as a | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
minister, and by senior officers to complicate regulations if they think | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
what they have got will do. I don't think the advice the Minister has | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
been given in good faith, but I speak to officers on the front line | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
in my constituency and there are concerns about the inadequacy of | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
current provisions are genuine and perhaps their experience does not | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
mirror the advice of a minister may be getting from some of the top | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
brass of the service. Or the concerns my constituents who go to | :37:47. | :37:57. | |
London and are sometimes caught in these situations, report. Can I turn | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
to the main issue I wanted to raise which I hinted at in my | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
interventions to the Minister? It relates to new clause 40 eight. The | :38:09. | :38:19. | |
fire -- 48. I welcome this change. It is something I wish I had been | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
able to bring in when I was the Fire Service's minister myself. But the | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
climate was not there for it to be done. I congratulate him up on it. | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
It is a more front line experience. My involvement goes back to my | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
involvement with the honourable gentleman the member for Poplar and | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
Limehouse when back 30 years ago I was the leader of the London Fire | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
and civil defence authority. Immediately after the abolition of | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
the GLC. I lied about my age to join up, not actually the case. There was | :39:02. | :39:13. | |
the old school inspectorate then we moved to an arrangement with the | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
chief adviser and we all hoped that peer review and the work of bodies | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
would achieve improvement from within. I think the Minister is | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
right to conclude that is not delivering what we want to do and | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
the evidence the Public Accounts Committee in their report set out | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
very clearly. It is right to move to the inspectorate and I support that. | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
The reason I raise what seems like an arcane and technical point is | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
this. I will amplify why I think it is right. One problem with the old | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
inspectorate is that it tended to be a bit of an old boys' club for | :39:57. | :40:04. | |
retired senior officers. Must invariably, appointments came from a | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
very narrow group of retired senior officers and it was a bit of a | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
revolving door. Or questions both about it being up-to-the-minute in | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
its knowledge and to the degree of independence it would bring. | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
Genuinely an inspector can sometimes have to say hard things to a chief | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
officer and his management team and that is not too easy if you've come | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
fairly recently from within the ranks of a fairly close service. | :40:32. | :40:35. | |
Where appropriate their should be greater flexibility to bring out a | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
contractor who has expertise in the appropriate fields. It may not be | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
for the whole of the inspection but it could be for a specific part. The | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
obvious example is financial matters. It works also in relation | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
to things like assurance of operational resilience because there | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
is expertise now in the private sector as well as the public sector | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
that can appropriately be brought to bear. I am obliged he gives way on | :41:06. | :41:15. | |
this point. Might it also, in the new environment where we are | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
encouraging greater collaboration between services, be the case that | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
the fire inspectorate might want to lean on other senior members of the | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
uniformed blue-eyed services to add their expertise in multi-agency | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
working to support the inspectorate? My honourable friend, also a former | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
chair of London Fire and emergency planning authority, makes an | :41:43. | :41:51. | |
important point. All of us favour greater collaboration between the | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
blue light services. I know that is where the Minister wants to go, too. | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
We all want a formula to achieve that. My concern is that the wording | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
as it is might make that hard work although I have no doubt that is not | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
the intention of ministers. The reason I raise the concern is that | :42:08. | :42:16. | |
as it reads, the new subsection A5, placed in section 28 of the 2004 | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
Fire And Rescue Services act, doesn't seem to cover the use of | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
contractors. I will look very carefully at this and get a third | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
reading this evening in the Lords and if I need to clarify that | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
position then I will do so by government memo in Lords. I am | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
grateful for that. That shortens what I have to say. To fortify him | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
in saying that I think we all agree that the Public Accounts Committee | :42:50. | :42:56. | |
found evidence that peer review process was not regarded as | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
adequate. If the Minister is happy to deal with what might be on | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
unintended think, I wish him well and I wish the Fire and Rescue | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Service well and I am happy to work to achieve that objective. I would | :43:16. | :43:24. | |
like to address a few words to new clause 12 which stands in my name. | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
It would amend section one of the coroners and Justice act 2009 and | :43:29. | :43:36. | |
scrapped distressing rules that said dementia sufferers who die in care | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
homes are classed as being in state detention under some circumstances. | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
Families told me of their distress of having to wait to bury their | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
loved ones because inquests are required into the deaths of dementia | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
sufferers who are subject to things irrespective of the circumstances of | :44:00. | :44:09. | |
the death. The threshold was Laurent of what is considered deprivation of | :44:10. | :44:22. | |
liberty in care. It was said all persons who died subject to this | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
order must be subject to a coroner's investigation. In the 2009 act, they | :44:28. | :44:38. | |
are deemed to be in state detention. The amendment is suggested by the | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Chief coroner himself in response to and recognition of the distress | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
caused to relatives. The chief coroner indicated that a simple | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
amendment of the coroners and Justice act 2009 might solve the | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
problem of unnecessary cases being reported to the coroner at least in | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
the short term. The chief coroner said for the purposes of this act, a | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
person who dies and subject two and those Asian granted under schedule | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
A1 to their mental capacity act 2005, depriving that person of his | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
or her liberty and detaining them in hospital or a care home does not die | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
while in custody or otherwise in state detention. Constituents have | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
contacted me including one woman who wrote after her mother died in a | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
nursing home. She said her mother suffered from dementia and other | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
problems and they sat with her for four days and nights before she | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
died. Within one hour of her death uniformed police arrived and they | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
were asked to leave the room. I am grateful. I too have had a very | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
similar case of a constituent whose mother was in a nursing home who | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
died and almost immediately the police came and for ten days had | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
hold of her body. Doesn't that cause great distress to people at a time | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
of mourning? Isn't it why we really need to tighten up on the rules | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
regarding the deprivation of liberty? | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
My honourable friend is right and I think there are many experiences of | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
many people across the country of that kind of unnecessary distress | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
and trauma. Since tabling the amendment the Law Commission issued | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
an interim statement on May 25 which said that there is a compelling case | :46:35. | :46:46. | |
for replacing this and the proposed new scheme should be removed from | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
the definition. The current law requires an inquest where a person | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
dies under a Doles, even if they cause of death was entirely natural, | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
was seen to be causing unnecessary work for the sector families. He | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
said they had received reports of police arriving at the deathbed of | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
the deceased and one reported their impression of a crime scene and | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
another referred to issuers of whether the disease body should go | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
to the official mortuary rather than the family's chosen funeral | :47:21. | :47:30. | |
director. I am proposing that we take the opportunity in the policing | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
and crime in Bill to amend this legislation now because it offers us | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
the opportunity to do that through this piece of primary legislation. | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
Realistically the Law Commission reported interim and we would have | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
to wait for the final report and then for legislation to be drafted | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
and enacted and it could take up to two years and during that time many | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
more families will continue to suffer distress. We talk a lot about | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
supporting carers and I know from my own personal experience how | :48:01. | :48:08. | |
distressing it can be to watch a loved relatives struggled to cope | :48:09. | :48:10. | |
with dementia and their families struggle to support them. To then | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
put relatives who have cared to the limits of their emotional capacity | :48:14. | :48:15. | |
through the further trauma I have described at the time of the death | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
of their loved one is heartless. I am not moving this amendment today | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
but I hope that the Minister will have heard what I have said and I | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
hope he will be talking to his colleagues in the health Department. | :48:29. | :48:36. | |
I would like to say that you do the honourable lady for being generous | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
in giving way. That is exactly what we are doing, not just in light of | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
the Law Commission's partial report but also because of work that is | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
already taking place. She is probing in exactly the right direction. Can | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
I thank the Minister for that very positive reply from him. I look | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
forward, when this bill goes to the Lords, to see the government's | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
response amended to the bill. If that is the right phrase. Something | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
like that! I thank him very much for that response. I rise to speak to | :49:08. | :49:18. | |
the amendment tabled by my honourable friend for Broxbourne and | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
the right Honourable member for North Norfolk. As the chair of the | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
all-party group for mental health I just to caveat my remarks by saying | :49:29. | :49:37. | |
the substantial changes in this bill for section 135 and 136 of the | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
mental health bill are very big changes and it would be fair to say | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
that in the last few years there has been considerable improvement in the | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
way in which police forces and police officers deal with people in | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
mental health crisis. I wanted to make some brief remarks in relation | :49:55. | :50:02. | |
firstly to the new clause 42 and a new clause 43 tabled by my | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
honourable friend for Broxbourne in relation to police officers being | :50:10. | :50:11. | |
deployed in psychiatric wards because I think this does raise some | :50:12. | :50:19. | |
important questions about when police officers are requested to | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
take action within health -based settings. I think this speaks to a | :50:27. | :50:37. | |
very important developing relationship between the police and | :50:38. | :50:45. | |
the health service because clearly there will be circumstances in which | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
because of the particular nature of an individual's condition and other | :50:53. | :50:57. | |
circumstances in which it may be appropriate for police to be | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
deployed in psychiatric settings it seems to me that it should be only | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
in very, very exceptional circumstances. It might be that we | :51:08. | :51:15. | |
need also to look at the way in which acute psychiatric units go | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
about risk profiling individual patients which are in those acute | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
settings. In order to ensure that it is very rare and exceptional that | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
police officers are called upon to take action within those psychiatric | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
settings, so I broadly support the intentions of the clauses which have | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
been brought forward by my honourable friend for Broxbourne, | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
who I know has done a lot of important work and he is a champion | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
for this area and I also have a lot of sympathy for his new clause 43 | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
which talks about Taser 's and again I would agree with my honourable | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
friend that it is only in the most exceptional circumstances that | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
Tasers should be used within acute psychiatric settings and we should | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
have very clear guidance and guidelines as to the appropriate | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
time at which that kind of force should be deployed. In relation to | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
new clause 58, tabled by the Right Honourable member for North Norfolk, | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
we have not yet had an opportunity to speak to his amendment but I | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
think it does raise some very important issues in relation to the | :52:37. | :52:49. | |
implementation of the changes to section 135, that it is | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
controversial that the idea of the way that a person's Private dwelling | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
being characterised as a place of safety and it seems to me that his | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
proposed amendment does raise some important questions which again | :53:04. | :53:10. | |
speak to the relationship between policing and the health service and | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
in terms of places of safety because I think we do need to think about | :53:17. | :53:24. | |
how we can provide a broader range of alternative places of safety, | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
some of which might not be within, they might not be health -based or | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
national health service based places of safety, they might be in the | :53:36. | :53:37. | |
voluntary sector and they might be in crisis houses and we do need to | :53:38. | :53:47. | |
think about the capacity in the system to provide appropriate places | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
of safety so I think that is... I think this is a really important | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
point but to be brutally obsoletes -- listing government, unless we | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
say, no, we will be the Port last resort, we will continue to be the | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
first place they come to a gnat pushes other departments into | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
getting their act together to do it so for the police having to say now | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
that we will not hold people in police cells inappropriately because | :54:17. | :54:18. | |
they can do it for other years and that will force other departments to | :54:19. | :54:26. | |
do it. I thank the Minister for the intervention and there may be a | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
role, for example, for Police and Crime Commissioners to explore this | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
need to work more closely with the health service and others to provide | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
the capacity for appropriate places of safety such that police officers | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
do not have to make the sorts of decisions that are implied in new | :54:46. | :54:54. | |
clause 58, so I think that, as I said at the beginning, the changes | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
that were proposed in the bill overall are essential and they are | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
transformative and I think we have to be very clear about what we mean | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
by exceptional circumstances in which we are detaining people and we | :55:07. | :55:14. | |
could move to a system where it becomes inappropriate in all | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
circumstances even for adults to be detained in police cells and I | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
recognise there may be a need to define exceptional circumstances in | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
which that might happen and I think the changes proposed are positive | :55:27. | :55:35. | |
and I think the amendments tabled by new clause 58 and others raise some | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
important questions that the Minister should consider in summing | :55:39. | :55:45. | |
up. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member for Halesowen and | :55:46. | :55:50. | |
Rowley Regis. I very much welcome the contribution from the honourable | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
member for Broxbourne who does a lot of campaigning on this issue. I have | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
tabled a number of new clauses and amendments and the first one I | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
wanted to deal with was the issue of whether we should be disallowing the | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
use of the Taser is on psychiatric wards and I should say, before I get | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
into the detail of this, that I, like other speakers, want to | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
acknowledge the inspiring leadership of many leaders around the country | :56:20. | :56:26. | |
who have, through force of strong moral leadership, managed to change | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
practice in many parts of the country and we owe them an enormous | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
debt of gratitude for that. The issue of the Taser is on psychiatric | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
wards, the honourable member for Broxbourne made issue -- a reference | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
to black mental health UK, great and importing campaigning organisation, | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
and they have, as he mentioned, drawn attention to the fact that in | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
particular black African Caribbean men are disproportionately | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
overrepresented in section 136 detentions, compared to the general | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
population. It is incidentally a conclusion from the joint Home | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
Office and independent health review of section 135136 and black African | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
and Caribbean men are in particular reporting that the use of force was | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
more likely to be used against them by the police. I want to challenge | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
the assumption that force is necessary at the level that is used | :57:29. | :57:36. | |
at the moment. Black mental health UK referring their briefing for this | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
debate to the United Nations committee against torture, which has | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
stated that Taser weapons promote extreme plane, constitute a form of | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
torture and in certain extreme cases can cause death. Whilst termed | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
non-lethal there have been at least ten known deaths associated with the | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
use of Taser in the last ten years. What I want to do by initiating this | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
debate is to get a debate going on this subject and I am delighted that | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
the Home Secretary herself has admitted, and I quote directly from | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
her, I have been hearing stories, for example, that Tasers had been | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
used in mental health wards. You think, hang on a minute, what is | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
happening here? That is what we should all be doing and we should be | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
questioning whether it is appropriate and that is why I have | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
tabled this new clause. I then table a clause in effect to prohibit the | :58:36. | :58:43. | |
use of police cells as a place of safety for adults. The government, | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
and I absolutely welcome this, has implemented through this bill, the | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
recommendation from the joint review to end the use of police cells for | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
children and young people. When you look around the country and you see | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
what has happened due to the inspiring leadership of many police | :59:01. | :59:04. | |
officers working closely with mental health services, they have actually | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
ended the use of police cells in some parts of the country in all | :59:09. | :59:22. | |
but the most extreme circumstances so in London, for example, there are | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
hardly any adults now going into police cells. That is a remarkable | :59:27. | :59:28. | |
achievement. In the West Midlands hardly anyone for an hour to years | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
has gone into a police cell as a result of section one 26. In these | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
areas -- if these areas of the country, with impressive leadership, | :59:35. | :59:36. | |
can do it then we should be challenging every part of the | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
country to do so and the legislation should lead the way. The Minister | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
himself, and I welcome the fact that he said this second reading, he | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
said, unless we actually put a stop to the use of police cells and say | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
enough is enough then we will not get the provision we need from other | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
agencies. Absolutely right. We cannot use as an excuse not to do | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
this the fact that the NHS is under pressure. If it is wrong, it is | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
wrong, and it needs absolutely to be challenged. I then refer to my new | :00:05. | :00:12. | |
clause 45, which is to ensure that in every case where there has been | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
evidence of child sexual exploitation, that the victims are | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
referred for a mental health assessment. In future in mind, the | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
report that I published in March last year, following a task force | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
that we set up to look at children's mental health services, it set out | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
the need for trauma focused care, and the need for sexually abused or | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
exploited children to receive, and I quote, a comprehensive specialist | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
initial assessment and referral to appropriate services providing | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
evidence -based interventions, according to their need. This new | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
clause seeks to implement our recommendation. The LGA, in their | :00:54. | :01:02. | |
briefing for this debate, has supported the intention, but raised | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
concern about investment. Are we really saying that the lack of | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
availability of mental health services is a reason not to ensure | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
that every child who has suffered sexual exploitation gets the chance | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
to proper assessment? Surely we have two set what is right in is | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
legislation and then ensure that we provide the facilities to make that | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
happen. Anything short of that would not, surely, be accessed double. | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
There are very many individuals who, after suffering abuse and | :01:34. | :01:44. | |
exploitation as a child, go on to be very ill in adult life. They suffer | :01:45. | :01:46. | |
things like associative disorder, I have had a briefing on that very | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
recently, it completely takes over your life and means you cannot work | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
and you have difficult relationships throughout your life, so the cost to | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
society is enormous, so let's make sure that we get those children the | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
assessment of their needs that they surely deserve. | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
Next I refer to new clause 58, the prohibition of using the home as a | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
place of safety under section one 36. Under section 135 where a police | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
officer goes to someone's home and it may be appropriate to stay with | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
that person in their home under section one 35. Under section 136, | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
to take someone by force to their home as a place of safety, the | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
organisation Mind raised very serious concerns. Would he share my | :02:36. | :02:42. | |
concerns which I raised in committee about detention at home, which is | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
although it is welcome in this bill that it is going to try to reduce | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
the number of people going into police cells, the fact to position | :02:52. | :03:03. | |
-- de facto position is to take them home but it might be because of a | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
lack of beds that is what they have to do? I am grateful for that | :03:07. | :03:15. | |
intervention. He is right. The fear is that it becomes the default | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
position because of the lack of resources in some localities. That | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
would be a big mistake. In circumstances where section 136 is | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
used, it should be a health -based place of safety the person is taken | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
to. There is a real effort underway, showing real signs of success around | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
the country through use of things like street triage to substantially | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
reduce the use of section 136 at all and deal with issues in a more | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
informal way. Where it must be used, we have to make sure the person is | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
taken to the right place. Would he accept that perhaps we need to think | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
about the definition of what we mean by a health -based place of safety? | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
Somewhere in control of the National Health Service. But maybe that needs | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
to be broader so a place of safety could be in a voluntary | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
organisation, different location. That would be one way of improving | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
capacity. I noticed his remarks in his speech and he is absolutely | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
right. A crisis house, a place of safety provided by a particular | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
community for people from that community, may well be the best | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
place for that person to go. We should be willing to open up that | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
definition in an appropriate way. I refer to new clause 59 which is | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
about the right to an appropriate adult to those detained under | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
sections 135 and 136. You have the right to mental health advocate if | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
you are detained under the Mental Health Act except under section 135 | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
or 136. It seems to me that in all those circumstances the person may | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
be very, very vulnerable and the idea of having a right to an | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
appropriate adult, as Mind has argued for, is something the | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
legislation should embrace. Finally I want to refer to when the clock | :05:19. | :05:28. | |
should start. The bill reduces the maximum length of time someone | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
should be held under section 136 whilst the assessment takes place, | :05:33. | :05:40. | |
should be down to 24 hours. It may well be that if there is pressure on | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
resources and facilities, someone could be kept in a police van, | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
driven around a city, it sometimes happens, and that's time under the | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
Government's current proposed definition would not count. Some | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
hours could pass before the person arrives at the place of safety and | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
other argument, again, Mind puts forward, contained within my | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
amendment 125, is that the clock should start when the person is | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
detained rather than when they arrive at a place of safety. So this | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
set of amendments... One of the concerns we have about this is that | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
we then set a target for the individual that needs that help to | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
be taken to somewhere quickly rather than the right place for their | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
needs. That is my concern that particular point. I do understand we | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
have to balance all of these things but what I am after is that | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
legislation should put pressure on agencies to provide sufficient | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
resources to meet a clear need, as is not the case at the moment. I | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
would conclude by saying that this group of amendments and new clauses | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
is designed to improve the rights of people with mental ill-health who at | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
the moment are too often let down by the system. I wish to address new | :07:08. | :07:16. | |
clause 23. Very briefly. And take the Minister on a very small | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
metaphorical journey, may be nowhere near as far as the amendment or new | :07:20. | :07:26. | |
clause 23 seeks to go. I am sorry if I am trying the patience of the | :07:27. | :07:29. | |
Minister and the House, because he has been exceptionally courteous | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
today and to me in previous aspects of this bill. Let me just say what | :07:34. | :07:40. | |
the mischief is about these face coverings. In my intervention | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
earlier I mentioned to lack. One was the Conservative Party conference in | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
Manchester and the other was in my constituency where two people in | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
masks in the badger cull the Labor Department said a farmhouse as it | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
was getting dark for several -- deliberately parked a car outside a | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
farmhouse to intimidate those people. If the police had been able | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
to ask the people to take off the masks the intimidation would have | :08:21. | :08:31. | |
stopped on the spot. In those incidents, asking those people to | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
take the masks offer would have stopped things. I want to simply say | :08:38. | :08:51. | |
let's look at section 66 eight eight of the public order act which | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
requires a constable on duty to require written consent before the | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
mask is taken off. Can I just say where I am coming from? There are | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
often what happens is they get on the radio and they get a verbal | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
consent and then the written consent is given afterwards. Technically a | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
crime is being committed because they haven't got prior written | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
consent. I am saying let's do away with written consent. We train our | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
constables to a high degree and put trust in them so let's trust them in | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
the individual situation. If they think this masks are a problem, we | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
should give them the power is to be able to demand those face masks are | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
withdrawn immediately. It may be able to be done by secondary | :09:40. | :09:49. | |
legislation. If he would do that I think we will have achieved what we | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
want this afternoon. Can I move new clause 24 which stands in my name? | :09:58. | :10:08. | |
And also refer to amendments in the name of the members for North | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
Norfolk and Broxburn. Raised was the fact that the state's power to | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
deprive someone of liberty is one of the most corneum acts of state there | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
is. -- Draconian. In the Mental Health Act, if you are detained | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
other than under section 135 or 136, you are entitled to a mental health | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
advocates. Under section 135 and 136, you are not. The only way in | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
which you could access legal advice, which is referred to in the | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
Honourable member for Broxburn's amendment, as if you are at a police | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
station. But they seem to want to stop people going to the police | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
station in the first place because clearly a police cell is not the | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
correct place for someone in mental health crisis. The important thing | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
is that those individuals do need some advocacy. Under the situation | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
we have currently, if they're not taken to a police cell or station, | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
they will not have access to legal advice or advocacy. My amendment is | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
trying to get some parity here in terms with the rest of the Mental | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
Health Act. So people have advocacy. I am pleased that the Minister who | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
responded to this in committee has taken a seat because it is an issue | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
which she has looked at. I don't intend to press this to the vote but | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
I think it is important we have some system in place where people are | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
detained under section 135 and 136 can access some advice. I share the | :12:02. | :12:10. | |
point made in the amendment from the member for North Norfolk, which I | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
think is a similar thing in terms of individuals having access to an | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
adult hooked advocate on their behalf. One thing which I do agree | :12:23. | :12:33. | |
with the honourable member for hills on and Rowley Regis has said is many | :12:34. | :12:43. | |
things in this bill are not necessarily the police's | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
responsibility. In many cases they are filling a gap which has been | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
there because of lack of funding or support or in some cases the | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
disjunction which exists between mental health services, local | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
authorities and others, and the police are seen as the last resort. | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
He is right in highlighting that. That comes on to the point of new | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
clause 26, in the name of the honourable member for Broxburn. I | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
welcome this because I think there is good practice already in many | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
police forces were they have mental health training. In Durham, the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
Chief Constable instigated a whole force review in terms of making | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
people have access to mental health training. It is important to have | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
consistency but it also empowers and gives more expertise to police | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
forces to know how to actually use not just these two sections, one in | :13:42. | :13:50. | |
three five and one to six, but other sections. Can I pay tribute to | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
police forces up and down the country? I think there is good | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
practice. In committee we referred to The Concordat, a good move | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
forward ensuring there is a joined up at approach at local level | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
between police forces and health services and local authorities. I | :14:13. | :14:21. | |
know the Minister is perhaps exploring how we can get some | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
agreement or reporting on what is actually happening at local level. | :14:29. | :14:39. | |
Can I turn to new clause 40? I have to say the member for North Norfolk | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
is doing a great service by putting this amendment down because this is | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
is not being talked about. I totally agree. There is no circumstance | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
which I envisage where you need to use a Taser on a mental health ward. | :14:54. | :15:07. | |
The honourable member praised the Black Mental Health Uk who have done | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
a lot of work on this issue. What struck me is that something has to | :15:14. | :15:24. | |
be done because there is no mathematical conclusion you can come | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
to that people from black and Afro-Caribbean communities are being | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
disproportionately detained to any other section of the community. It | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
cannot just be chance that these figures are happening. I would urge | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
the Government to look at this seriously in terms of trying to ask | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
how we can put things in place to ensure that is not the case. The | :15:50. | :16:03. | |
other amendment, new clause 40 three. If we will not have | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
prohibition on use of lasers, I would agree with this amendment so | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
at least we would have statistics to say when and where they are being | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
used. I refer to new clause 50 eight. A similar amendment that I | :16:18. | :16:25. | |
put down in committee. It is a concern I have. Can I credit the | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
Government in its efforts for trying to ensure that people in mental | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
health crises do not end up in police cells? Unless we have very | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
close monitor reporting that may be a position where you get people | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
under section 135 or 136... And can I say to the honourable | :16:46. | :16:57. | |
gentleman, isn't it remarkable how far this house has come in the last | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
four years that today we are putting the interest of mental health | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
patients at the centre of what we are discussing and he should take | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
great credit for that personally. I would also credit the honourable | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
gentleman as well as many other people in the house because credit | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
to the government, they have taken the issue very seriously and I think | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
both ministers on the committee are committed to ensuring that we get | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
the best outcomes for people in mental health crisis in the criminal | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
justice system. Can I just say that although we have a situation where | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
the police cells will not be the first resort, which I think they | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
have been in the past, and that is no criticism to the police were | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
taking people there because that was the only place available and we need | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
to closely monitor what happens to people who are detained under | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
section 135 and 136 of this act because I would not want to get into | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
a position where the de facto position is to keep people at home, | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
which might help the statistics of avoiding people going into police | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
cells, but will not be the best place possible for individuals in | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
crisis. What we do need, and The Right Honourable member for | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
Halesowen and Raleigh Regis raised it, it doesn't necessarily have to | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
be a health -- health facility. We need, in this country, a network of | :18:26. | :18:33. | |
place of safety for individuals in mental health crisis and they may be | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
health run and they may be run by charities or others but we need that | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
network because a police cell, and in some cases I don't even think a | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
hospital is the best place for certain people in crisis. Can I | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
finish by saying that I am glad that the changes that are being made in | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
this bill and they are being taken seriously by the government, can I | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
also pay tribute to the way in which both ministers have addressed this | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
in committee and I know that although things are perhaps not | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
going to be put on the face of the bill, working with colleagues at the | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
Department of Health, I think we will get to a situation where people | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
with mental health crises do not actually end up in the criminal | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
justice system because that should be our aim. You caught me by | :19:18. | :19:28. | |
surprise, I must confess. Thank you for the opportunity, it is a | :19:29. | :19:30. | |
pleasure to follow my honourable friend from North Durham. I will not | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
be making reference to the mental health policies and arrangements | :19:36. | :19:37. | |
within this bill but I commend the colleagues who have spoken already | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
in this debate and who have been personally responsible for taking | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
this issue so far, and encourages a government to listen to the | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
arguments that they have been putting forward four years and I | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
commend the government on its response to the debate which | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
obviously took place you can see and generally in its attitude towards | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
mental health. I want to commend my right honourable friend, the Shadow | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
Home Secretary, in the way that he moved his amendments almost in | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
conclusion as part of the campaign on Hillsborough, passionately and | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
powerfully, and I hope that the government will be in their position | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
to respond positively to his request for his amendments to be accepted, | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
if only in principle. I look forward to the Minister making a response | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
when he response to this debate. I only want to speak very briefly to | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
new clause 48 and new schedule one. These clauses propose to recreate a | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
national Fire Service inspectorate in England. It is a recreation of a | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
national Fire Service Inspectorate. My friend, the minister, the former | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
firefighter, like I, when we exchange of brigade matters he | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
sometimes throws back at me when I asked him to do things that I didn't | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
do them when I was Fire Minister and why should he do them? I am asking | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
him why he is recreating the Fire Service Inspectorate when we did | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
away with it and put other arrangements in place and I would be | :21:12. | :21:14. | |
very interested in what the explanation for that will be. But I | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
welcome, as has the honourable member for Bromley and Chislehurst, | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
that the government is recognising that there is a vacuum there, Gap, | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
and something has to be created to fill it, whether it is the | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
Inspectorate, as laid down in the wording of the amendments as they | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
stand at the moment or whether they are changed as it goes to the house | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
of Lords, the fact that the government is moving in this | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
direction is welcome. As we discussed in Westminster Hall last | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
week with the Minister, the increasingly, the increasing number | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
of calls from flooding that the Fire Service deals with, the transition | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
into more medical emergency calls, and the arrangements within the | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
national Health Service to do more social care visits, along with fire | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
safety visits, demonstrates that the Fire Service is moving into | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
different territory and different skills have been developed which | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
need different resources as well as the staff to do them. As I raced in | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
the Westminster Hall debate last week, there are criticisms being | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
levelled at the service at the moment, some of which are being | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
blamed for the level of reductions in the service. The Fire and Rescue | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
Service is a victim of its success in recent decades, having cut the | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
number of calls on the number of fires and reduce the number of | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
deaths in city centres, it means it is prone to be able to see the loss | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
of fire stations and fire of prices and as the Minister knows the | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
figures that I quoted in Westminster Hall last week mean there are nearly | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
7000 fewer firefighters in position in the UK now than there were in | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
2010 and that has raised a number of eyebrows and question marks about | :22:57. | :22:57. | |
attendance times being met and resources being available and asking | :22:58. | :23:04. | |
whether the service is now equipped to do the job that it needs to do. I | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
am happy to give way. I thank the honourable gentleman who has great | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
experience in the Fire and Rescue Service in a number of capacities. | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
Does he agree with me that although the operational issues which he is | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
quite rightly raising a very important, that the Public Accounts | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
Committee found that in the wake of the abolition of the audit | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
commission, the governance and scrutiny and oversight of so many | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
Fire And Rescue Services and the cosy relationship between the | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
authorities and those services were unsatisfactory in terms of value for | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
the taxpayer pound? I do agree with the honourable gentleman as it was | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
the same point raised by the honourable member for Bromley and | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
Chislehurst and there is the argument that the Minister will be | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
putting forward and we will be helping the government that there | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
needs to be something put in place to be able to make the measurements | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
that he refers to. Having said all of that I am curious about the | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
lateness of the arrival of the amendments and I know the Minister | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
referred very positively in his opening comments about the consents | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
and is in committee and the ability of both sides helping each other out | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
to make progress in the bill and I commend my honourable friend for | :24:18. | :24:26. | |
West Ham because she was arguing the case about having something in place | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
to assess the ability of the Fire Service to carry out the functions | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
that we all want to see it doing and it is to the Minister's that he has | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
brought forward the amendment and the new schedule to address a | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
particular issue. I did mention intervention earlier a curiosity | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
about whether the government had looked at the UK service as a | :24:45. | :24:52. | |
potential vehicle to try and carry out the kind of function that has | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
been proposed year. My memory of when I was in the fire Brigade with | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
13 years as an operational firefighter, I did possess a pate in | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
Her Majesty Inspectorate drilled in the fire station and I have to | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
question the value of them. We tried for weeks and weeks to get them | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
right. They still didn't go right entirely sometimes, but we question | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
the actual value of that amount of rehearsal and whether or not the | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
practice actually basically made the whole exercise worthless, so the | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
question is, having decided to abolish the HMS -- the HMI, because | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
of scepticism and cynicism, the honourable member referred to the | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
old boys network, the government is trying to propose something new, I | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
hope, although what is being proposed is a re-creation of what | :25:47. | :25:52. | |
went before. Having gone to DC LG and having moved back to the Home | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
Office, there seems to be a replication of Her Majesty 's | :25:56. | :25:58. | |
Inspectorate of police and Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of prisons | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
service and we don't get Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of fire so I would | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
be interested in listening mode to the Minister and more to debates on | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
the other place. I hope it will get more scrutiny and confidence in the | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
Fire Service has always been high and it is high but it needs | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
professional underpinning and validation, not only for public | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
confidence and value for money but also for the safety of the | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
firefighters on the front line who put themselves on that line to | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
protect the public. I look forward to more expensive -- extensive | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
debate when this goes to the other place and I look forward to some | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
comments from the Minister when he sums up because this is a positive | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
step forward and we need to make sure that the Fire Service can | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
demonstrate, to its own satisfaction, to our satisfaction, | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
and to the public that it is equipped resourced unable to do the | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
job that we all admire it for doing and we wanted to carry on doing in | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
the future. First of all, may I apologise, although I was here for | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
the opening speech from the Minister, had to go and check | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
delegated legislation and you were kind enough to put me on the panel | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
of chairs, so I am sorry that I have not been president for whole debate. | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
I want to speak to new clause 23 which was so ably moved by my | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
honourable and learn it friend for Harborough. I understand that this | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
amendment will not be pushed to a tonight and I understand that there | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
is going to a review under Pace and I understand that the Minister has | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
listened carefully to all of the arguments that have been made and if | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
we are going to have a review I think there is an opportunity, and I | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
want to use my brief remarks to talk about this, there is an opportunity | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
to have a debate in this country about face coverings are generally. | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
I think that many people in our country feel that this is quite | :27:54. | :28:02. | |
un-British and except in exceptional services -- circumstances is not | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
necessary for any reason. I don't want to suggest that we should take | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
heavy-handed universal action to prevent people from covering their | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
face in this country because I think that it is also in a sense | :28:17. | :28:25. | |
un-British but actually what we believe in fundamentally, as a | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
nation, is the freedom of people to live their lives, for whatever | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
reason, in the way that they want, as long as they don't alarm or | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
intimidate other people, and I know that other countries in Europe, for | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
instance of France, Belgium, I believe, perfectly moderate and | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
sensible and freedom loving countries, have decided to ban face | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
coverings in public and I think that is probably not the way they would | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
want to proceed here but what I do believe is that if we are going to | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
have this review, it is an opportunity to have a debate and I | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
certainly follow my honourable friends who have expressed concern | :29:05. | :29:13. | |
about certain situations where people do feel intimidated. It might | :29:14. | :29:20. | |
be in the environs of a hunt or an animal research laboratory, or it | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
might be in the environs of a demonstration outside here, people | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
are, of course, entitled to demonstrate, nobody denies that, but | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
it is very intimidating for the police and the public to see people | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
who are engaged in demonstrations with any kind of face covering, and | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
I understand it is perfectly possible under present arrangements | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
for the authorities to issue written instructions and that the police | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
Council can actually require you to remove your face covering and all of | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
the rest of it but I would like to go further. The way I suggest to | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
this problem is that it should be the right, certainly of a police | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
constable, in a particular situation that could be threatening or | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
intimidate three or violent, or confrontational on both sides, to | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
require somebody to remove the face covering. I also think it should be | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
possible for a chief counsel to do so and they should lay down general | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
prohibitions against face coverings. I also think it should be possible, | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
and I think there should be a public debate about this and I think there | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
are different points of view, it should be possible for the Home | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
Secretary to issue a ban against face coverings in certain situations | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
or in geographical places that are particularly sensitive, for | :30:45. | :30:46. | |
instance, the central areas of the city is the and Westminster, the | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
central part of our capital city, which is sensitive for all sorts of | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
reasons, or in hospitals, schools, law courts, doctors surgeries. I | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
know that not everybody in the house will agree with this but I do think | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
that it is something that many people in the public are concerned | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
about. Nobody is more pro-religious people than myself, nobody is | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
wanting to do more to defend the right of religious people or any | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
other sort of people to dress in anyway they want to, but I do think | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
that there are certain situations, certain parts of the country, | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
certain public places where the public, as a whole, although they | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
are very tolerant of other people's attitudes, way of life and living, | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
don't like the idea of face coverings. | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
That's all I want to say. I hope the Minister will be open-minded about | :31:50. | :32:01. | |
this and he may wish to comment on what I have said when he sums up. It | :32:02. | :32:09. | |
is a real privilege to the summing up this set of amendments in this | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
group. Can I thank the shadow police Minister for giving me some time to | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
smack he could easily have spoken again to the amendments. I am | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
pleased to have a little bit of time to talk through some of these | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
things. I have given some indications during my interventions | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
to honourable colleagues and right honourable colleagues in the House | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
as I've gone through. Can I speak a little bit to do with comments made | :32:45. | :32:55. | |
by my honourable friend for Bromley? I think he was brutally honest when | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
he said he would like to have done this when he was the Minister. And | :33:02. | :33:10. | |
my other former colleague was the Minister and a firefighter. We must | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
learn by mistakes, and we all make mistakes in life. It will not be an | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
old boys' network. It will be based around Her Majesty 's Royal | :33:26. | :33:29. | |
Constabulary. They will not have weeks to practice escape drills, | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
like I remember vividly when I was in the job. Those were the old | :33:35. | :33:45. | |
ladders and big wheels. They will have the powers to bring in experts | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
fit for the inspections. I think that is important. I think the | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
inspector should not be an ex-chief fire officer from somewhere, similar | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
to what we had before. I know that will put a few ruffles in the | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
network. The person coming in asking the question up of why can bring in | :34:13. | :34:21. | |
expertise. At committee, this was raised. I had only been in the job | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
two weeks when we started talking about this. It was a very new role. | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
I knew what I wanted to be able to do. The Home Secretary knew. And a | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
little bit of encouragement from the shadow minister has helped us on our | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
way. There will be areas where we can work closer with Constabulary | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
around the way they do their inspections. Can I speak also to | :34:54. | :35:04. | |
some of the Government amendments which I haven't had the opportunity | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
to talk about earlier? And also some of the excellent contributions | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
during. One of the most important amendments or agreements I have | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
agreed to with the Home Secretary's permission is around the 12 month | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
rule for officers who have retired or left the force. It always struck | :35:26. | :35:33. | |
me as strange long before I came into this that, criminal proceedings | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
apart, there was an investigation within the police force, no matter | :35:40. | :35:50. | |
what rank you work, and in some cases I have a duty of actually | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
signing pension documents which actually revoke police officers' | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
pensions, they have broken the rules so badly they lose their pension. I | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
signed those quite regularly. It is very difficult when you're signing | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
something which actually is going to really dramatically change their | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
future. I do not do that lightly. I often quiz my officials and ask | :36:15. | :36:25. | |
about it. The rules are quite specific. In this area, while we | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
didn't want to leave... I know that Shadow Home Secretary understands. | :36:33. | :36:44. | |
We did think is real opportunity on behalf of Hillsborough... I hope as | :36:45. | :36:58. | |
indicated by the shadow front bench and other parties, they work with us | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
on those regulations because they will be one of the biggest legacies. | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
I'm sorry that in two areas we don't quite agree with the opposition. The | :37:07. | :37:18. | |
area around Levenson two. And I am categorically not saying it is not | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
going to happen but no decision will be made until after the... It is | :37:22. | :37:37. | |
above my pay grade. I will give way. I am grateful to the Minister for | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
giving way. I don't want to compete with the Scottish Nationalists in | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
offering to be honest broker but could he say that when the cases are | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
concluded the Government will reaffirm their commitment to go to | :37:52. | :38:01. | |
level as in two. -- Leveson two. We will wait for the enquiries and | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
proceedings to finish and then we will announce the situation. I am | :38:09. | :38:19. | |
grateful. He made the position clear but in making it clear he wanted -- | :38:20. | :38:34. | |
want please... Can he be clear that the position he outlined as a | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
weakening of the Government position? The Government promised a | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
stage two. That is up in the area now. Can we be clear this is a | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
weakening of the Government's position? There is no weakening our | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
change. We will wait for the conclusions. We have, all the way | :38:55. | :39:04. | |
through this, and I have to accept the shadow sick troop of state's | :39:05. | :39:13. | |
view, but no Home Secretary has gone further further victims of | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
Hillsborough than this one. We will wait till after the conclusion of | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
the criminal cases. The other area on which we disagree I think is a | :39:22. | :39:31. | |
shame but I also respect the view of others in the House and if we have | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
to do go through the lobbies we will. A review is underway and we | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
will not pre-empt what is said in the review. There are assumptions | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
which will be in it, right and wrong. Whatever happens, it does not | :39:49. | :39:58. | |
stop there. If we win in the division, we will still wait for the | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
conclusions of the investigation and the court cases and we will still | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
wait for Bishop James. I think I need to make a tiny bit of progress | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
and then perhaps I will... I'll make it brief. Could I point out to him | :40:19. | :40:26. | |
that the issue of parity, equality, legal funding at inquest with the | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
police are represented goes beyond Hillsborough because it affects many | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
families fighting many injustices so it is beyond the Bishop James work. | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
Could we at least have a commitment to work with us to seek that parity | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
and the quality of legal funding at inquest? If that commitment is | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
given, that would mean something. All the way through we have worked | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
with Her Majesty's opposition and we have done everything we can. I | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
slightly disagree and this may be semantics but the work that Bishop | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
James will do will make a huge difference for cases going forward | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
because of the experiences of what these people have gone through for | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
the last 27 years. It is not just about Hillsborough. Bishop James's | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
review would get guidance to government, whatever colour that | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
government is. That is why we wait for all the recommendations for | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
the... From the review. I think on this particular one perhaps we can | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
come to ground. We will continue to work together beyond this debate | :41:38. | :41:40. | |
this afternoon, no matter what the faults are because it is the most | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
important thing to be done. -- votes. Can I speak about the | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
conclusions around mental health. The Foreign Minister and the member | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
for North Durham and committee talked about this extensively. As a | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
former disability is minister, I had long meetings are very fruitful | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
meetings with the former mental health Minister in the Coalition | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
Government, and we agreed about 90%. Many changes to the way the police | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
are dealing and looking after people with mental health issues is because | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
of the work the member for North Norfolk did in his time as a | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
minister. He pushed the Department for health to places at times the | :42:31. | :42:42. | |
did not want to go. There are things that are still fundamentally wrong | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
in the 21st-century. As my honourable friend said earlier on, | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
my heart tells me that the use of a Taser within a secure mental health | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
facility must be wrong. But my brain and my experience tells me, in | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
exceptional circumstances it must not be the norm but in exceptional | :43:02. | :43:09. | |
circumstances... I have met several of the lobbyists who have campaigned | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
hard on this and my colleague will take the work forward on this. I | :43:14. | :43:24. | |
think we are in a wheelie exciting position that instead of the police | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
being the place you went, and not just about mental health but social | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
services as well, particularly to do with children, and I have been with | :43:36. | :43:48. | |
police long before I got this role. The constables were given notes from | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
the Sergeant, would we go and visit Mary or John because social services | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
have said they haven't actually seen them for a couple of days and these | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
are vulnerable people and you have a duty? Sorry, social services had | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
that duty first. We must be the last resort. I use the word we because I | :44:09. | :44:16. | |
am passionate. Police cannot be the first port of call. The work in the | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
last couple of years to do with street triage particularly, and | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
different ways this is done around the country, but Street triaged | :44:26. | :44:33. | |
transformed the amount of 135 and 136 done. Can I touch on this? Went | :44:34. | :44:50. | |
a 135 -- a 135136 is an arrest. It is not being sectioned, they are | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
arrested. The power is to protect and arrest. That is something we | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
need to make clear. In different parts of the country we have seen | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
different uses of 135. They have massively dropped, particularly 136. | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
That is because of work done but more needs to be done. We are in a | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
position to drive this forward. Frankly, we have said enough is | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
enough. I understand many of the amendments. Particularly on use of | :45:22. | :45:32. | |
lasers. -- Tasers. They have saved lives but I understand the risks | :45:33. | :45:42. | |
alluded to. I used to do voluntary work in a mental health hospital | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
before and during the time I was in the Army because my mother worked as | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
a mental health nurse. I asked, is there a case where you would have to | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
use this sort of force? She is retired now. She said to me, sadly, | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
in exceptional circumstances. She emphasised the quality of training | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
within mental health facilities as to how you could restrain someone | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
safely. I'm sure I heard him right but just to confirm, what he is | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
saying is that ministers will work with interested parties, myself, the | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
honourable gentleman for North Norfolk, to ensure the recording of | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
these incidents is much better and the reporting is much better and we | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
will be able to report the progress back to the House periodically, | :46:32. | :46:33. | |
perhaps through letters in the library. | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
I fight my honourable friend for that intervention but that is the | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
point I was trying to get to. If we devolve these powers down we give | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
more and more powers to the PCCs then they should really know what is | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
going on in their part of the world and that should be there and | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
available for the public, it should not be a pay, it should be there to | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
be received. It will take more work and I am delegating more work to my | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
colleagues on the Treasury bench at the moment. It is not just the Home | :47:05. | :47:13. | |
Office. Someone said earlier on that this really should not be in the | :47:14. | :47:15. | |
bill and actually probably should've been years ago but it needed to be | :47:16. | :47:24. | |
in this bill. In the monitoring of the use of Tasers, ensure that we | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
look at the ethnic dimension of on whom they are used and that it is | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
publicly available, so there is transparency there. I think it is | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
vitally important because one of the points that I know my colleagues | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
have had in their discussions and one of the issues around when I was | :47:46. | :47:53. | |
the disability Minister is the disproportionate experience of black | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
men being Tasered in facilities and there was a disproportionately high | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
number of black men in mental health facilities and we all know there is | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
a disproportionately high prevalence of black men in prisons and the | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
criminal justice system. It is not something we can just say, it is | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
something we need to do something about. The educational standards and | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
the aspirations and whether or not. The other issue that the right | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
Honourable gentleman race which was rightly important is that where | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
someone has been abused, whether it be sexual or in other ways, we | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
should make sure we get the right care to them early on. Don't assume, | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
of course, that it would show up in that first medical analysis. I know | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
from friends with post-traumatic stress and I had friends for many | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
years ago in the Falklands who are only showing those signs now. If he | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
doesn't accept the memo that there should be an automatic referral and | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
I absolutely accept that things made show up later on, will he accept, in | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
accordance with what The Children's Society is saying, that the | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
government should be very clear that it should be the standard process | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
that a child is always referred to an assessment of their mental health | :49:06. | :49:10. | |
needs? I am probably stepping way beyond my portfolio but as a father | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
I really think that if you are assessing a child that has been | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
abused, how can you not assess them for their mental health damage that | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
may have been occurred? I think it is something that is a natural thing | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
to do and I will probably get shot for that but probably at the end of | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
the day and is a moral position that is where we need but how that is | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
done is for the right honourable gentleman's former Department and it | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
is something. Can I move, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I can, to the area | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
around facial coverings. The particular part of the bill which | :49:46. | :49:54. | |
was clause 23, my honourable friend from market harbour and several of | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
his colleagues, I think we have come to a bit of a consensus about where | :49:59. | :50:07. | |
to be on this. I arranged that the lead on this within the police and | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
the whole country, and very unusually, really very unusually, a | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
senior police officer said, don't give me any more powers., I am happy | :50:16. | :50:23. | |
with the powers that we have got. What they said in the meetings that | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
we had, and I are happy to share with the house, is that the way the | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
legislation is being interpreted through guidance is an issue. I | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
think there is also some confusion about the powers of under 68 a of | :50:36. | :50:43. | |
the act which is written authority and the truth is that they go on to | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
their radios and immediately say this is the situation and I want to | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
remove it, I think an offence will take place and it is of it instantly | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
given and it is signed later on and it is not breaking any law and it is | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
exactly how the procedure works on a daily basis. However the Home | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
Secretary and I both understand there is real concern as to whether | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
or not it has been implemented in a way which has the confidence of the | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
public as well as perhaps the police confidence. And rather than change | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
the law against the advice that I am getting from the police, what we are | :51:18. | :51:25. | |
going to propose to do is where we already have a pace a review coming | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
forward, which doesn't happen very often, but we have it in this | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
autumn, coming forward now with stop and search, and these powers are | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
very similar when you think about them, to stop and search power, that | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
we are going to ask through the review that these powers are added | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
into that. That is, I think a very significant change and it alleviate | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
some of the concerns but at the end of the day we need to make sure that | :51:52. | :51:59. | |
we are giving the powers. Of course. I wouldn't want my right honourable | :52:00. | :52:02. | |
friend to think I was I'm grateful for what he was suggesting, I would | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
never do that or be that but it would not be very helpful if he were | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
to be able to write to me setting out exactly what it is he is | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
proposing and what are the likely amendments to Pace. He mentioned a | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
review of Pace that he did not mention necessarily an amendment to | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
the police and criminal evidence act so if he could be clearer in paper | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
that would be very useful. I will write to the honourable gentleman | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
and I will put a copy of the letter in the library of the house as well. | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
There is a cross-party concern about some of these issues. This is | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
specific to this regulation so I listened very carefully to my | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
honourable friend and this is not part of the bill and as he said in | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
his commentary it is for later. If he thinks I am fobbing it off into | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
the long grass, the purpose of this Bill, that is exactly what I am | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
doing. I think that the way that the debate has been dealt with today, | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
some of the ways that I hope that both myself and my colleagues on the | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
true committee and as we go into the true committee and as we go into the | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
next group has helped this Bill progress in a way that has been | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
positive. It is a long time since I have had the sort of encouragement | :53:24. | :53:30. | |
in a bill, apart from one previous bill that I took a house with just a | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
little bit of disagreement, but I am absolutely adamant that this bill, | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
and amendments and new clauses and the patients in this Bill, will be a | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
legacy for the Hillsborough families, and the campaign that they | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
have brought forward for 27 years. I am sorry that we cannot agree on | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
everything, as I have indicated, even if we disagree tonight, we will | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
probably agree tomorrow, and with that in mind, Mr Deputy Speaker, I | :53:58. | :54:05. | |
move these clauses. The question is that clause 28 the read a second | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
time, as many of that opinion say I. The eyes have it. The question is | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
should 48 be added to the bill? As many are of that opinion say Tasers | :54:18. | :54:33. | |
three. The ayes have it. The question is that the government do | :54:34. | :54:43. | |
schedule one and clause 30, as many of that say aye. The ayes have it. | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
We now come to a new clause 60 three. The question is that new | :54:51. | :55:00. | |
clause 63 be added to the bill, as many of that opinion say aye. The | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
contrary, no. Division! Clear the lobbies! | :55:08. | :56:53. | |
The question is... Sorry, new clause 60 three. An amendment to move the | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
new clause formally. The question is that the amendment be added to the | :57:02. | :57:02. | |
bill. Order. Order. The ayes to the right, | :57:03. | :07:27. | |
155. The noes to the left, 264. Thank you. The eyes to the right, | :07:28. | :07:39. | |
155. The noes to the left, 264. The noes habit. -- have it. We come to | :07:40. | :07:55. | |
close 64. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :07:56. | :07:56. | |
"no". Division. Clear the lobby. The question is that new clause | :07:57. | :09:20. | |
64-bit added to the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To | :09:21. | :09:21. | |
the contrary, "no".. . Order! Order! The ayes to the right, | :09:22. | :18:41. | |
155. The noes to the left, 268. Thank you. The ayes to write, 155. | :18:42. | :18:51. | |
The noes to the left, 268. The noes have it. Unlock. Right... Let's have | :18:52. | :19:06. | |
a look. Minister to move government amendment 25 to 32, 31 to 61. 83 and | :19:07. | :19:17. | |
14 to 17 formally. The question is that government amendment is 22 to | :19:18. | :19:24. | |
30, 31 to 61, 88, 63 to 84 and 14 to 17 be made. | :19:25. | :19:25. | |
As many as are of that opinion, say "aye". | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
The ayes have it. Minister to move a new clauses 49 to 53 and government | :19:28. | :19:44. | |
new schedule two, formally. The question is that government new | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
clauses 49 to 53 and government new schedule two be added to the bill. | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
As many as are of that opinion, say "aye". | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
Minister to move government amendments 89 to 106, 109, 110, 117 | :19:55. | :20:16. | |
and 18 formally. The question is that government amendments 89 to 16, | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
109, 110, 117 and one 18. As many as are of that | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
opinion, say "aye". We now continue clause two on page | :20:26. | :20:38. | |
55 of the amendment paper with which it would be convenient to consider | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
other clauses and amendments listed on the selection paper. I now call | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
Liz Saville Roberts to move the new clause two. I rise to speak to new | :20:48. | :20:56. | |
clauses two, three, four and five and 44. I would like to say at this | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
point that I intend to test the opinion of this house and call for a | :21:01. | :21:09. | |
division on new clause two. The other four clauses are probing | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
amendments to test the discussions made in the committee. I noticed the | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
proposals made by the minister in the sport of localism that I would | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
caution you rip -- cautiously proposed reminded that Wales is one | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
of the formations of the United Kingdom, yet it is the only one that | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
has no responsibility for police forces. Second-class nation. The | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
governments of other nations are able to direct their police forces | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
to work effectively in response to their needs but Wales must follow | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
the policing priorities of England. The four police forces of Wales are | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
unique within the UK in that they are non-default bodies operating | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
within a largely devolved public services landscape. They are thus | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
required to respond to the agendas of two governments and serve the | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
nation whose people have the right to use either the English all the | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
Welsh languages. It should be noted that the Assembly Budget already | :22:10. | :22:20. | |
funds 90 extra PCS owns does he, like me, find it surprising that | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
many other services including mental health devolved and it prohibits the | :22:27. | :22:34. | |
coherence of public service in Wales if this is devolved. It is the very | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
fact being answerable to two agendas which is the reason why I understand | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
our colleagues in the National Assembly of Wales and also the four | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
police and Crime Commissioners in Wales are calling out for of | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
policing. What we are describing now is in a stark contrast to the | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
position in Wales where power over policing is due to be devolved to | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
the English city regions like Manchester and Liverpool. The | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
present approach to devolution considering this fact, comparing | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
Wales with the English city reasons, the present approach to devolution | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
has been criticised in the House of Lords constitutional committee | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
report as piecemeal and lacking a coherent vision. I would strongly | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
argue that the devolution of policing of Wales would benefit the | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
people of Wales they are ill served by the antiquated England and were | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
arrangement which inevitably is designed with the priorities of | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
English cities in mind. Our demographics are different in Wales. | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
The need to maintain effective services in rural areas with | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
scattered populations cries out for better consideration. The impact of | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
tourism, where populations rocket and bank holidays and summer months | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
stretches resources to the limit. One area in my constituency has a | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
1000 year-round residents and yet North Wales Police have to deal with | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
an influx of 20,000 visitors in the summer season. I went on patrol with | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
officers last August and saw how drunken behaviour meant police | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
officers have to focus behaviour -- attention on that one community, | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
travelling hours back and forth along custody -- country rich to the | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
nearest custody cells 20 miles away. The current arrangement of policing | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
in England and where is dominated by English metropolitan concerns and | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
fails to provide for the needs of Wales. I will give way. I am | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
grateful to my honourable friend for giving way and the strong points she | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
is making. Recently the UK Government brought forward a | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
centralised service for helicopter services for police services in | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
England and Wales. It didn't affect Scotland and Northern Ireland | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
because there forces are decentralised. We lost our | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
helicopter. The front bench in the government are smirking and this | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
affects lives in my constituency. The police force in Dyfed Powys | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
called out the helicopter over 40 occasions and only a handful of | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
times the police came out. Order! Order!. Mr Edwards, this is if you | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
wanted to speak you can speak that you cannot get carried away and | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
speak to the Minister in that way. Keep it calm and any points you want | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
to race there will be time to do so. The question of resources and how | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
priorities direct them highlights again the fact that Wales has | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
different needs and those resources from central government do get | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
directed into those priorities which best serve England. When devolution | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
of policing of Wales was discussed at committee the minister referred | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
to the Silk Commission in England and Wales which was established by | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
his party as a minister was him at the time, in 2011, with cross-party | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
membership. Part two was published in 2014 and recommended devolution. | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
He made much at the time of the fact that there was no consensus on this | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
recommendation as a result of the St David's Day process and powers for a | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
purpose. Those involved in the process said it was little more than | :26:14. | :26:26. | |
a tick box exercise. If all-party representatives liked it, the power | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
was in the bag and if not, check it out, regardless of the implications | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
for the government and needs and indeed people of Wales. I know that | :26:32. | :26:33. | |
at committee labour indicated a grudging support for devolving | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
policing, although in the distant future, ten years away. It seems | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
pressure from Plaid Cymru is driving the accelerator. This is not a | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
matter of jam tomorrow, we are living in hope of this today. This | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
opportunity is before the house here and now and the contents of future | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
legislation and future amendments lack this certainty. If this house | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
votes for devolution today policing will be devolved to Wales and the | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
government will then have to amend the Wales Bill | :27:03. | :27:16. | |
accordingly, at the very start of its journey. Indeed, surely the | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
Wales Bill deals first and foremost with constitutional matters, but | :27:20. | :27:21. | |
here is our opportunity to make sure. I urge Labour to grasp the | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
opportunity and support the National Assembly of Wales and all four | :27:25. | :27:26. | |
Police and Crime Commissioners in Wales and support the devolution of | :27:27. | :27:28. | |
policing today. I turn now to new clauses three and four and five, | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
which relate to aspects of digital crime. I would know that these, and | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
new clause 44, are probing amendments. The government states | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
that resources are already provided to counter digital crime in the form | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
of the national cyber unit. I would respond that the national side unit | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
is relatively small and that the national cyber Security programme | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
concentrates primarily on the security businesses and | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
infrastructure. Action fraud addresses crime in relation to | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
online fraud and the priorities here our business, financial and serious | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
crime and it do not cover the safeguarding of victims of abuse | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
crimes, such as domestic violence, stalking, harassment or hate crime. | :28:13. | :28:14. | |
The first of these clauses proposes a review of legislation relating to | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
digital crime and incorporate many acts into a single statute. Criminal | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
justice professionals, including the police and the CPS believe it is | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
confusing at best and overwhelming at worst. Victims complaints are | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
sometimes subject to delay and there are times when officers are | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
uncertain whether a specific activity is criminal or not. The law | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
has developed incrementally as technology advances and there is an | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
urgent need to codify and clarify the current situation. Consolidation | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
will save police time and money and it will avoid duplication of | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
officers on cases. Swift action on victims complaints will reduce | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
stress and anxiety to those victims. As regards new clause four, | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
surveillance and monitoring highlights further issues against | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
which there is presently no address. The identification of these actions | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
as offences will enable the police to counter activities which are | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
evidently related to surveillance with attention to cause distress and | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
the law should respond appropriately. New clause five | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
addresses the need for training that is fit for purpose. Even in large | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
police areas fewer than 5% of police officers and staff, including call | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
and first response personnel are trained in cyber crime. Victims | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
report being advised to go off-line and not use social media by | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
officers. This defies modern communication media and is | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
equivalent to telling victims of harassment not to venture outside | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
their own homes. The Home Office believes that training is a matter | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
for individual forces, but in the absence of strong central leadership | :29:57. | :30:04. | |
it can only perpetuate present inconsistencies and variations from | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
force to force. National training would help to raise the status of | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
victims. Finally I would like to turn to new clause 44, which calls | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
for the establishment of a specialist digital unit to | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
investigate online offences against children and young people. As I | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
mentioned earlier there was a real risk intrinsic independency of | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
central units, although I acknowledge the work done by the | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
Child exploitation Centre. Once again children's charities report to | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
us that the scale of abuse of children online, in terms of | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
offenders, devices and images, is leaving police swamped. There are | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
delays in forensic analysis devices, delays in some cases of up to 12 | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
months. These delays pose a risk to the safeguarding of children. At | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
committee the Minister mentioned the child abuse image database and | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
praised the accuracy of imagery interpretation and how it aids | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
identification. It is to be commended that the database will | :31:05. | :31:06. | |
take some of the load from individual forces. | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
I would argue there is a precedent for digital units on a par with | :31:12. | :31:20. | |
domestic violence units. I will give way. I commend her on tabling these | :31:21. | :31:29. | |
amendments. She talked about the idea of a specialist digital unit | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
within each police force. Does she agree that it would be imperative if | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
that were to happen that this would feedback to some central database to | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
ensure the work done in those individual units was available | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
across the country? We need the expertise of its central unit | :31:49. | :31:57. | |
alongside. And we avoid the risk that a central unit's existence | :31:58. | :32:08. | |
tends to encourage crimes to be seen as another's departments problem. | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
Those amendments I chose to discuss and I would reiterate those are | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
probing amendments. I would repeat my intention to push for a division | :32:20. | :32:29. | |
on new clause two. New clause two, devolution and responsibility for | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
policing. The question is that new clause two be read a second time. I | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
rise to speak on new clauses three, four, five... I note she set her | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
amendments out as probing amendments. Those five amendments | :32:52. | :33:01. | |
tabled by Lib Dem and Plaid Cymru members. We all need to get our | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
government and governments around the world to wake up to the extent | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
to which crime and criminal activity has now moved online. All laws are | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
not giving victims the protection they need and our police forces face | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
a revolution if they are to tackle the crime that they face now | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
effectively in the future. There has been a significant shift in the way | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
people experience harm in this world. New clause 44 as the | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
honourable lady already set out calls for police to have special | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
digital units to look particularly at child abuse images. Many police | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
forces in this country have gone a long way, including my own in | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
Hampshire, to build up this sort of specialist expertise but I think the | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
new clause in itself is an interesting piece of advice which I | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
will be interested to hear the Minister's response to as well as | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
the response from police training too. There are serious questions as | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
to whether the providers of online space are doing what they need to do | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
also keep their communities safe. They have not only a corporate | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
social responsibility to do that but I also think an economic imperative | :34:22. | :34:30. | |
because it is their brand names which are tarnished when their | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
products are used for illegal purposes. I think there is another | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
aspect, not particularly brought up in the amendments today but I will | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
also mention the importance and international importations of these | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
things. If we want a solution to the sorts of crimes committed online in | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
this new digital world which does not respect county boundaries, we | :34:55. | :35:04. | |
must have some by end -- buying in from international communities two. | :35:05. | :35:14. | |
Perhaps we could look to the United Nations or the youth part of the | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
United Nations to look at how we can get more effective laws in future | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
that are not constricted by international boundaries. Our law is | :35:24. | :35:29. | |
struggling to cope. These amendments recognise that there is a real need | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
to recognise online crime is different. I think it is a battle | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
that has been won when this government put in place the revenge | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
pornography law a year or so ago. We have already seen thousands of | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
people using the helpline and thousands of reports to police. Two | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
thirds of cases reported to the police have seen no action because | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
of Rob Holmes with evidence that victims have been able to give or | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
even victims have withdrawn. These new clauses are picking up those | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
issues and calling for the Government to consider again. New | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
clause 46 calls for anonymity of victims, something considered at the | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
time the law was put in place. The advice at that point was to wait and | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
see how things progress. Statistics suggest now is a time to think | :36:21. | :36:27. | |
again. The myriad of amendments here today show the level of complexity | :36:28. | :36:41. | |
and concern across all parties. My concern is that the offer a | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
piecemeal set of solutions. The honourable lady picked up on that. | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
Surely what is needed is a wholesale review of the police training and | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
development of international support for digital providers to take | :36:59. | :37:00. | |
seriously the importance of keeping their communities safe online. I | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
support the spirit of these amendments but I am struck by the | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
need for a more comprehensive review. Perhaps in the form of the | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
Digital economy Bill which Her Majesty announced in the speech last | :37:16. | :37:24. | |
month... I'm grateful. She articulates a serious problem but | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
does she also acknowledge that with some 70,000 cases of historic child | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
abuse likely to be investigated by the police this year alone, with up | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
to half of cases coming to the courts involving sexual explication, | :37:39. | :37:45. | |
many of them historic, police are overwhelmed in their capacity to | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
deal with this new wave of digital crime against some of the most | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
vulnerable children? So the suggestion for an overview of this | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
is essential. He has an impeccable record of campaigning in this area. | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
What I would say to him is that perhaps the very nature of the scale | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
of this problem as an indication we do not have the regulatory framework | :38:11. | :38:20. | |
with -- within which to work for the future. We can't expect the police | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
force to put down the work they do in every other area to solely focus | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
on online crime. But at the moment he is right to say that the scale | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
that is seen as, in the words of some Chiefs of police, frightening. | :38:35. | :38:43. | |
We are not yet seeing a response to that and I hope the Digital economy | :38:44. | :38:49. | |
Bill will provide ministers on the French ten -- on the front bench | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
today... We can no longer say this is the by-product of a new industry | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
which will settle down over time. I think the honourable members will | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
have heard quite a good deal of evidence this evening to suggest | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
more action must be taken and I would ask ministers to agree to sit | :39:11. | :39:21. | |
down with me and other honourable members who might be interested to | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
set out how the Digital economy act can be used as a vehicle to achieve | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
the objective of making the Internet safer at home and abroad. I just | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
want to say a few words in relation to new clause 13 and 14. New clause | :39:37. | :39:46. | |
13 would make it an offence for adults to groom children and young | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
people for criminal behaviour. New clause 14 would introduce a new | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
grooming for criminal behaviour prevention order which I would call | :39:54. | :40:07. | |
a Fagin order. We must recognise young people drawn into banality and | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
good often been groomed and manipulated. Currently we have | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
numerous prevention orders to combat grooming. Sexual risk orders, sexual | :40:20. | :40:27. | |
harm prevention orders, child abduction warning notices. A bit | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
like to see the creation of a similar order to be used when | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
children are groomed by organise crime to act as drug runners. This | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
would be a practical way of disrupting activities including the | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
phenomenon of county lines in which cases criminals groom and question | :40:44. | :40:50. | |
people into selling Class A drugs many miles from home. Organised | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
crime is aggressively creating new markets for drugs in every seaside | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
town and every small country village across the country. Criminals used | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
to do their own drug running but now they are actively identifying groups | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
of vulnerable children including those living in children's homes and | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
pupil referral units to use and so minimise the risk to themselves. | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
County lines is the next big grooming scandal and the horizon. It | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
takes many forms but it's paces is using vulnerable children to develop | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
new markets for drugs. One example so a 15-year-old girl offered ?500 | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
to go upcountry to sell drugs. She had Class A drugs planted inside but | :41:38. | :41:48. | |
was set up by the original gang and assaulted and had the drugs forcibly | :41:49. | :41:57. | |
removed. The threat of child sexual explication for girls in gangs is | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
known but the added factor of being trafficked to remote locations | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
compounds their vulnerability. These young people are at risk of | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
physical, sexual violence and emotional and physical abuse. That | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
model of grooming involves both trafficking and modern slavery. | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
Children from greater Manchester are being groomed by criminal gangs and | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
have been found selling drugs as far away as Devon. These gang members | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
are like modern-day Fagins, hard men who groom youngsters to get them to | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
do their dirty work. They must be stopped in their tracks. Are some | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
reports said younger ones are often groomed for involvement in criminal | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
behaviour and harmful sexual behaviour as part of gang culture. | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
The most recent Rotherham trial showed a connection between | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
organised crime and drugs and child sexual exploitation. I read the | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
recent Home Office report and also the NCA report into county lines. I | :42:59. | :43:09. | |
think this development is not fully understood or recognised. Someone | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
needs to take ownership of a strategy to disrupt this aggressive | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
organised network and the strategy needs to put the safeguarding of | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
children first. I don't pretend that Fagin orders would be a silver | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
bullet but they would indicate a change in culture and a recognition | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
that the responsibility lies with the adults who groom their children. | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
We can't afford to make the same mistakes as we did with child sexual | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
explication when we let terrible things happen to children because we | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
blamed them for bringing about their own exploitation. Child sexual | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
exploitation, drug running and involvement with criminal activity | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
are often intertwined which is why we need a two pronged approach. We | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
should have similar prevention orders for adults grooming children | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
for criminal behaviour. We must have a response to county lines which | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
ensures children are found, safeguarded and supported out of | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
gangs and that adults are stopped as early as possible from grooming and | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
manipulating children and are varnished to the full extent of the | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
law for their exploitation. Until then, it will continue to be the | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
young victims who are exploited, blamed and punished as their abusers | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
and puppet masters continue with a trade which nets organised crime | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
millions of pounds per year. I am grateful. I stand to speak in | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
support of new clauses 15, 16 and 18, which stand in mine and others' | :44:42. | :44:52. | |
names. I want to add my voice to the honourable ladies. It is clear from | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
the amendments in this legislation and elsewhere that the law is | :44:57. | :44:58. | |
struggling with protecting children online. It is old, ineffective, it | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
does not appreciate the dangers out there for children on the Internet. | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
I sincerely hope that the right honourable member is right that the | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
Digital economy Bill is used to increase the protection for Jordan | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
online. Not least because part of the reason that we do not tackle | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
this problem in the way that we should is because there is big money | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
to be made here. This is a commercial enterprise, pumping this | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
stuff into people's screens and computers across the country, if not | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
the world. So there is a certain slot and idleness in the digital | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
community in dealing with it. Technically we could switch this | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
stuff off tonight. We have no problem stopping children getting | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
into our bank accounts, stopping children from buying things on | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
Amazon or whatever it might be. Yet children can easily access | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
pornography, now, every day, 24 hours a day without any protection | :46:04. | :46:05. | |
whatsoever, unless your parents intervene. That is a disgraceful | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
state of affairs. From my point of view, we should use the digital | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
economy point of view to create some kind of offence of living from | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
immoral earnings for these Internet providers because that is what they | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
are doing by turning a blind eye and not interrogating data coming | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
through their pipes that is of that nature and effectively turning it | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
off so that eyes below 18 cannot see it. | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
We need to find some way to make them face up to their obligations. I | :46:40. | :46:48. | |
have three children, two of whom are very small, and I feel as if I am in | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
a daily fight for them with the media, whether it is TV, online. We | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
ration carefully what they get and what they can seek and I hope to god | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
that as they grow and become teenagers, I can protect them from | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
the worst, but I need help from the government and those who control | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
data and our access to the Internet. They can do it in any number of ways | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
and should be forced to do it on pain of significant financial | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
penalties. It is only when profits are threatened that they will | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
finally focus and come up with the technical solutions we need. I would | :47:25. | :47:32. | |
have liked to have added my name. I was out with a group of people | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
recently and we went on stings the local newsagents and others buying | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
illegal counterfeit discounted cigarettes, in many cases advertised | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
by a phone number which we rang up. It could only have resulted in | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
criminal activity. Just as he is making the case for prostitution | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
which clearly can only lead to illegal activity, it is so easy for | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
us to be able to use this phone numbers and those telephone | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
companies should be taking greater responsibility. He brings me neatly | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
on the new clause 16, which deals exactly with this. I know you have | :48:15. | :48:22. | |
been an aficionado of my political career so you will know that 15 | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
years ago, I was charged with getting rid of prostitutes's carton | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
telephone boxes. It was costing Westminster Council ?250,000 a year | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
to remove these things. We tried clearing them out, we tried putting | :48:40. | :48:48. | |
up force cards so people were misdirected. In the end, the only | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
solution we could come up with that we felt could work was barring the | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
numbers. I went to see all the mobile companies and then people had | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
landlines in those days. I said, what we want to do is when we notify | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
you of this number, we would like you to bar it. They said, we will | :49:11. | :49:18. | |
not do that. But we will, if you manage to get the placing of the | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
cards made an offence, if you get it made illegal. They thought I had | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
given up at that stage, there would be too much of a mountain to climb, | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
but we decided to have a go and so on skewed a two year campaign. | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
During those two years, I learned the truth about prostitutes's cards | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
which is this is effectively organised crime being allowed to | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
advertise for free and unrestricted on our streets and in the back of | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
our newspapers and online. When you get one of these numbers, you are | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
not ringing a prostitute who is herself a victim. You are ringing a | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
switchboard. You ask what you want and they will give you any menu of | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
women, trafficked or otherwise, of all ages and creeds and races. And | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
then, those numbers gather value because once you are a punter and | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
you have used the number and got what you want, you will use again | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
and again and again. I started to learn and understand the economic | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
spotlight these telephone numbers and that is key about eradicating | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
it. Once you realise these numbers carry a value, it becomes even more | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
pressing that we should bargain. When you add to that the printing of | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
the cards, the advertising, the websites also costs money when the | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
cards are printed in their hundreds of thousands, you can see why making | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
it dangerous to advertise a telephone number could become an | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
extremely effective deterrent to doing so. Once there is a number, if | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
it is advertising is barred within 24 hours, they lose all of that | :51:06. | :51:15. | |
income. So during those two years... For clarity, behind every one of | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
those numbers is a woman who very often for the ones I have met has | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
been abused as a child, might have been trafficked into the country, | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
will have a violent pimp, so is the honourable member looking to | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
prosecute the woman who is usually the victim or is he actually going | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
after the pimps, manipulators and gang leaders behind? No, not | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
targeting the women at all, this is about the organised crime which is | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
creating the number, printing the card, placing the card and | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
victimising the woman. It's about cutting off their access to cash, | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
money, and therefore restricting their ability to build a business | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
off the back of this free advertising. So eventually, after a | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
two-year campaign, we got the offence made illegal helped by | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
friends in the House of Lords. We arrested the first card, an Italian | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
law student who was bailed and disappeared back to Italy. The next | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
week, I had a meeting with the mobile phone companies and they | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
completely welshed on the deal. They did not realise we would get it | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
done, that I have the gumption we would manage. Usually the term | :52:37. | :52:46. | |
welshing is deeply disrespectful to the people of my country. That was | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
an unfortunate use of the word. There is a different spelling the B1 | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
but you are right. Please forgive me. It is a word in common parlance | :52:56. | :53:02. | |
but I should not have used it. Anyway, they remained on the deal. | :53:03. | :53:08. | |
As a result, I have been waiting for the opportunity to put the | :53:09. | :53:10. | |
government the idea that there is this solution to the problem. So I | :53:11. | :53:18. | |
present here a simple solution which is if a chief officer of police | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
finds a number advertised in their area, for the purposes of | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
prostitution, they can apply to a magistrate at the number barred. | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
That means that both the police officer and the magistrates had to | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
make a judgment about whether this is a measured thing to do. It's not | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
automatic, is for the police to decide and I would advise the police | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
officer to warn the owner. I would guarantee you that it will result in | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
the disappearance of these cards from Liverpool, Manchester, the West | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
End, where ever they may be. The right honourable gentleman is | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
absolutely right, it could be extended, there could be numbers | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
used for dealing drugs or selling cigarettes, numbers advertised on | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
the Internet for prostitution and drugs, quite freely at the moment | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
for people to access. If we cut the numbers do it swiftly, we will | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
certainly go a huge rate in suppressing the activity making it | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
difficult for criminal and customer to connect. I laid out before the | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
House. I would ask the government, the Minister has said she will look | :54:26. | :54:28. | |
at it and hopefully will come back in the Lords. My other two | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
amendments, you will have noticed a theme in my time of this House, the | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
protection of children. It has alarmed me for some time that the | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
legislation protecting children is elderly and out of date and very | :54:44. | :54:51. | |
patchy. The offence of child cruelty dates back to the 1932 act. It still | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
includes things like allowing a child to be burnt, which arises from | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
when we used to send them up chimneys. It is elderly are not fit | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
for purpose. The last time the sentence was looked at was 1988. We | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
have not looked at it for nearly 30 years and yet the number of offences | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
is rising significantly. The deterrent effect is not working. I | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
am given to understand that the sentencing council will look and | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
review child cruelty over the coming summer. If they do so, we are duty | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
bound to give head room and move the tariff up from ten years to 14 for | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
the most severe offences. And then, new clause 15, which is about | :55:36. | :55:43. | |
reviewing all child offences. We have been very good in this House in | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
seeking to protect vulnerable groups in legislation generally so if you | :55:50. | :55:52. | |
commit a crime against somebody who is gay because they are gay, you | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
will get an aggravated sentence, if you get commit a crime against | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
someone who is black because they are black, similarly you will get an | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
aggravated sentence. Even on religious grounds, you will get an | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
aggravated sentence, get if you commit an act on a child because | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
they are a child, you will not necessarily get an aggregated | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
sentence. They are not a protected group in law and they should be. I | :56:20. | :56:25. | |
am grateful to the public bill office in helping me to draft an | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
amendment that would allow me to do that and the best way we could find | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
to do it was to require the sentencing council to review all | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
offences for children within a 12 month period to allow all of us to | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
have our say about aggravating the sentences when offences are | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
committed against children. I have attempted to insert this principle, | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
principally the psychoactive substances bill but the government | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
would not accept my amendment if you are to sell a psychoactive substance | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
to a child, you would get a stiffer sentence than if you sold it to 55 | :57:01. | :57:07. | |
man. All my amendments are probing. I am willing to give the government | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
time to look at them again and hopefully they will come back in the | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
Lords but if they don't, pleasingly, we get a policing and crime Bill in | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
this House every six months, so I will get another chance, but on that | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
basis, I hope you will look at the amendments and given the thumbs up | :57:27. | :57:36. | |
for future consideration at least. I rise to speak predominantly the new | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
clauses six, ten, 41 and 60 there had been tabled by the opposition | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
front bench. The intention of these new clauses is to provide stronger | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
safeguards against the sexual exploitation and abuse of children | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
and to disrupt perpetrators of these crimes before they have the | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
opportunity to destroy a child's life. I want to start with new | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
clause six which relates to the extension of child abduction | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
notices. These are a vital tool for the police. Quads are issued by the | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
police at the request of a parent or legal guardian. They disrupt contact | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
between a child and adult believed to be in the process of grooming | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
batch child for sex. Currently the Police Commissioner one in relation | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
to any child under the age of 16 but only a tiny minority. These include | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
children taken into care under section 31, those subjected to an | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
emergency protection order or in police protection. All other 17 and | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
16-year-olds are left unprotected. By definition, children in care are | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
vulnerable. The last statistics available showed 4300 and 2016 and | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
17-year-olds who became looked after by the local authority would not be | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
eligible for the protection of a child abduction warning notice. The | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
Minister previously expressed scepticism around the proposals to | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
extend the use of these notices. I recognise the sensitivities and law | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
in this area given that 16 and 17-year-olds are illegal able to | :59:10. | :59:15. | |
marry and consent to sexual activity but this group of children are | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
living unstable and risky lives and they face a significantly greater | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
risk of sexual exploitation and are targeted by adults who exploit their | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
vulnerability yet currently police are denied access to a critical | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
intervention tool that would help keep them safe. I agree with the | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
Minister that quorum is at an imperfect tool but we also both | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
agree that children of any age, including those who are 16 and 17, | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
must be able to rely on the State for protection. For three years, I | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
have been pushing the subsequent ministers to find a solution to this | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
issue. The way to deal with complex issues is not to avoid them | :59:57. | :00:05. | |
altogether. We need to persevere and collaborate so we can find the best | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
possible solutions. It's vital that we get legislation to protect all | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
children from abuse at the age of 18 and it's important that we get the | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
legislation right. I know that the Minister is not minded to support | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
this new clause so what assurances can she give that the government | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
plans to make sure children up to the age of 18 are protected from the | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
early stages of sexual grooming? Next, I would like to turn my | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
attention to new clause 60. Unlike the previous amendment, this relates | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
to an existing use of child abduction warning notices by the | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
police. Phones are not legally enforceable. Breaching a notice is | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
not a criminal offence but does form an evidence base for future action. | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
That action is meant to take the form of a sexual harm prevention | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
order or sexual risk order both of which require a high threshold to | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
use. They are legally enforceable and punishable criminal sanctions. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
In theory, this is a good system. It allows the police to formally | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
intervene to prevent harm at the earliest possible stage where there | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
are concerns about an adult's behaviour towards a child. Even | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
where the evidence is sparse, police have the ability to take further | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
action. The police currently have tools to excavate their response and | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
continue to keep a child safe. The problem is police forces in England | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
and Wales are failing to record the breach of a child abduction warning | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
notice. They are failing to record the issuing of a notice in the first | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
place and the actions that follow from that breach. To be clear, if | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
Acorn is issued because police suspect the child is at risk of | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
grooming and this has the is not need reminding of the horrifying | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
results of that crime, it's vital a breach is recorded and acted upon in | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
order to keep that child safe from sexual abuse and exploitation. | :01:58. | :02:09. | |
And yet, individual police forces have no idea to their effectiveness | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
in tackling the early stages of grooming because they simply do not | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
record the data. So this Government is ignorant of the reality of risk | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
the children are facing from predatory paedophiles and abusers. | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
As the tactics of perpetrators change, so must our approach. This | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
involves constant vigilance in the way in which perpetrators operate | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
and consummate monitoring the effectiveness of hours response. | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
Failing to record the effectiveness of the current system is | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
unforgivable. If the Minister cannot make an assessment as to whether | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
this works, how can she make an assessment on the safety of children | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
that we owe a duty to protect? New clause 60 would do with this issue | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
directly by requiring police forces manually to collect a number of | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
CAWNs issued, breached and the number of sexual harm prevention | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
orders issued following that bridge. You'd clause 60 will require the | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Secretary of State to report to Parliament annually on the data. We | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
need to get this legislation right. Every member of this House must take | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
responsibility for the children to whom we owe a duty of care. This | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
cannot be done by having the proper data. It is for that reason that I | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
intend to push for a division on new clause 60. I wish to turn now to | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
news caught him with it Government Amendment 50 six. Both of which | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
relate to the licensing of taxes and private hire vehicles. -- taxis. I | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
know the importance of having a robust taxi licensing scheme for | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
both protecting passengers and drivers. Both independent report | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
into the disaster in rather a recognised the vulnerability of a | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
weak taxi licensing system and what it creates for child protection. I | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
will give way. I am grateful to her for raising this important point to | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
stop I had an adjournment debate on the issue of taxi licensing because | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
we in greater Manchester have a problem, in that a neighbouring | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
local authority in Lancashire is effectively handing out taxi | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
licences like sweets. Often to people who have been legitimately | :04:19. | :04:26. | |
refused taxi licences from any of the ten Greater Manchester | :04:27. | :04:28. | |
authorities, yet they are now operating as private hire taxis on | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
the streets. Is that not something that should be worrying to the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
public, but also needs strengthening in law to stop happening? I am so | :04:39. | :04:46. | |
grateful for him bringing this up. My deep frustration is, in Rotherham | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
we worked really hard to get the legislation right, we got robust | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
legislation to protect children and within six weeks of that being in | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
fermented, the deregulation bill meant it was not worth the paper it | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
was written on. Because people from other areas can come in, pick up | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
fares, be subcontracted and none of the safeguards have any effect. So I | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
am thankful to him and it is an issue that Government needs to look | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
at. To create the system in Rotherham, there was much | :05:21. | :05:22. | |
consultation with the taxi drivers but also with the survivors of child | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
abuse. Rotherham Borough Council have now implemented a new licensing | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
system which is one of the things that influenced clause ten. After | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
two years, of the horror that we discovered in Rotherham, the | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
Government has failed to take action to make the taxi profession sector | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
across the UK for all vulnerable people. The Government must learn | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
lessons when things like this go catastrophically wrong. At committee | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
level, Labour pushed the Government to push taxi and private vehicle | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
hire licensing authorities under a statutory obligation to prevent | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
child sexual exploitation. Taxi drivers are in a considerable | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
position of trust. The overwhelming majority of taxi drivers live up to | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
the responsibility their role creates, but there are a minority | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
that do not. Better regulation is needed urgently to improve training | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
and awareness of drivers so they can play a part in keeping children safe | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
from harm and also they know how to report abuse if they see it. All | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
local authorities must ensure checks are carried out to prevent | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
perpetrators or preferential -- potential perpetrators from having a | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
licence. Monitoring must be in tears, complaints must be | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
investigated and passengers must feel confident. I'm delighted to see | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
the Government have listened to Labour and have responded to our new | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
clause by introducing one of their own which would empower the | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Secretary of State to issue a statutory guidance to listing for | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
the licensing authorities. Can the Minister assure us that the | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
Government's new clause 56 would have the same effect as our new | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
clause ten? The new clause empowers but does not require the Secretary | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
of State to issue statutory guidance. I would like the Minister | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
to confirm that the Secretary of State intends to issue guidance and | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
to do so without delay. I would appreciate an indication as to the | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
timeline involved, both on the wallet of the consultation and also | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
when the guidance would take effect. -- the roll-out. I am grateful to | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
her forgiving way whilst I support much of what she says, maybe in the | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
Government's: new clause, isn't part of the problem this, that a | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
particular local authority that issues the licence receives the | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
funding for that licence to be processed, but if they are operating | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
in another part of the country altogether, it is a local authority | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
very distance telephone -- distant, and might have the cost of them and | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
forcing that taxi licence holder? Don't we need some parity in terms | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
of the funding and where that taxi driver is operating? Once again, he | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
is right, I welcome his comments and that is why for me personally, it | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
needs to be a national thing, which the Government has responsibility | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
for. I have to say, the Government has been good at making promises in | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
relation to tackling child sexual exploitation but not so good in | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
following it up with action. Therefore, can the Minister make | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
some commitments on the issues around taxi licensing today? I would | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
also appreciate a skier on the contents of the guidance although | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
this is a subject for consultation, I appreciate. The Minister may wish | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
to write to me on this point. Councils continue to report lack of | :08:49. | :08:50. | |
intelligence sharing from police on issues crucial to deciding the | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
suitability of applicants were taxi licences. Although the new | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
common-law disclosure policy should allow for information sharing, the | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
interpretation varies and many police forces do not share the data. | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
Guidance to cancel alone will not resolve this. Will the Home Office | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
to take steps to ensure police cooperate fully with cancel so they | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
can screen applicants were taxi licences effectively? And will the | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
Minister confirm the status of this guidance, the amendment says | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
authorities must have regard to it. I hope the Minister will clarify | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
that the guidance must be followed, not just looked at and put in a | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
drawer. If the Minister can confirm those questions, we may withdraw our | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
amendment. I now wish to return to new clause 41, which would make it | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
explicit in the law that local safeguarding children's boards have | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
an obligation to prevent child sexual exploitation and other forms | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
of abuse. The boards should bring together all professionals in | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
education, law enforcement, social care and the voluntary sector to | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
help protect children. They are established by the last Labour | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
Government who had the potential to ensure the focus of every | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
organisation on the board has the protection and welfare of children. | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
Look also -- safeguarding children's boards can act as the canary to | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
child sexual exploitation and abuse, to bring together professionals who | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
can develop a full picture of harm being done against a child. But far | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
more emphasis must be given to prevention of child sexual | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
exploitation and abuse. Chief Constable Simon Bailey said in 2015, | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
more than ?1 billion was spent on investigating child abuse | :10:33. | :10:34. | |
allegations. Sadly by the time the police were involved, it is likely | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
the children have already been harmed and would be living with the | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
trauma for the rest of their lives. Prime Minister has himself given | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
child sexual expedition the status of a national threat in a strategic | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
policy requirement. So I hope the Minister will support our new clause | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
to broaden the objectives to include a focus on prevention of sexual | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
exploitation. I will give way. She is making some good points, but it | :11:01. | :11:10. | |
is my understanding that each local safeguarding children board was | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
responsible for developing its own localised version of that CSE plan. | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
And the problem is not so much the plan, it is the unwillingness of | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
some of the partners within that to pull weight. And does she agree the | :11:25. | :11:29. | |
recent review that has been undertaken may need to bring in some | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
statutory duties on those partners to do their bit in partnership with | :11:34. | :11:39. | |
everybody else? As ever, he is superb on this field, and yes, he | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
also is ahead of me by a lying in that I completely agree, because the | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
problem with the safeguarding boards as they stand is they are very | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
dependent on the skill, determination and bloody mindedness | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
of the chair. You are right, I do not want this to be a postcode | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
Lottery, if you have a good chair that can implement a good plan. What | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
I want is for every child across the country to be safe and safeguarded | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
in the same manner. So I look to the Government to try and move on this | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
area. I would now like to speak in support of new clause 13 and 14. I | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
want to begin by praising my honourable friend, the member for | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
Stockport, who works tirelessly for the protection of children in her | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
constituency and across the country. She has also been a role model to me | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
and a mentor to me and I am extremely grateful. I want to put on | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
record my gratitude for all the help she has given me, but also all the | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
children in this country, you have been tireless and I am very grateful | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
for that. Our amendment is looking at the grooming of children for | :12:49. | :12:50. | |
criminal behaviour raise an important issue that this House must | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
tackle. Children are not just a risk of grooming for sex, they face | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
exploitation from criminals for terrorism, trafficking and | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
drug-related offences, just a few examples. This Government must take | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
seriously this issue and offer holistic approaches to tackling | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
child grooming and exploitation. I ask the Minister to work closely | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
with the member for Stockport to develop a new clause 13 and 14 into | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
legislation. Turning to new clauses 46, 47, 61 and 62, through my own | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
campaigning work to prevent violence and exportation and harm against | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
children, I have seen the most dramatic and shocking increase in | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
the proliferation of sexual images, often taken and shared by children. | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
The right honourable member will appreciate the current legislation | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
has only been in effect for a year, so I hope he can support my column | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
on the Government to conduct a thorough review into the | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
effectiveness of the legislation, the number of prosecutions and | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
convictions and the suitability of the sentences. I would also like to | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
welcome new clause 55, which creates a lifetime anonymity for victims of | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
forced marriage. The crime of forced marriage is another form of domestic | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
violence. The victims, mostly women, suffer violence, threats of | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
violence, manipulation, psychological, and economic control. | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
Like every other form of domestic violence, victims have their rights | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
removed from them by their abusers. Anonymity will encourage victims to | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
come forward and seek help from the police. It will give a survivor a | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
chance to regain control and rebuild their life. Now the Government | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
recognises the benefit of anonymity for victims of forced marriage, FGM | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
and sexual abuse, I hope the government will consider extending | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
anonymity to victims of other forms of domestic and sexual violence and | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
needs to do more to raise awareness of these awful crimes. Madam Deputy | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
Speaker, I would like to briefly comment on a number of amendments | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
tabled by the shadow Home Office team, led by my friend, the member | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
for all and St Pancras. It is unfortunate but true that our | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
criminal justice system does not always their support for the victim | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
at its core. I know from my own work that very often they feel totally | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
unsupported when reporting crime. Many victims face the most | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
horrendous ordeal at court, forced to relive their trauma over and over | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
again. Yet there is no statutory framework around the provision of | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
services to victims in the criminal justice system. No legal regime | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
promoting and protecting is -- protecting the rights of victims. | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
Similarly, the role of the Commissioner has great potential but | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
it is under resourced and exists without significant powers. Victims' | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
rights will only be taken seriously if and when they are enshrined in | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
law. I hope the Government will hear our call and make that a reality. I | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
wish to end by commenting on new clause two. It would devolve | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
responsibility from police into the Welsh Assembly. I have had the | :16:01. | :16:02. | |
pleasure of working with the honourable member on other clauses | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
in this bill relating to child protection. I have no doubt that her | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
convictions expressed today in new clause two are heartfelt and sincere | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
need to be taken seriously. As my honourable friend has outlined, | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
Labour believes that the people of Wales should have a greater say over | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
the policing of Wales and this should be pursued through the Wales | :16:27. | :16:28. | |
Bill. I stand to move new clauses 46, 47, | :16:29. | :16:43. | |
61 and 62, standing in my own name. If I might perhaps just where the | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
honourable lady left off there with regard to new clause two, my | :16:49. | :16:55. | |
honourable friend would normally speak in relation to match such as | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
this but he unfortunately is absent from the House today through | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
illness. But the honourable lady has indicated it is advantageous to push | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
this clause to vote and in the event she does so, she would indicate that | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
my party the night will support her and her colleagues in relation that. | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
To devote substantial portions of the criminal law in relation to | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
Wales without actually devolving the control of the police force which | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
would then enforce it does seem at the very least to be a little bit | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
illogical. I wish the honourable lady and her colleagues well in | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
relation to that. I am grateful for the indications of support I have | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
had from members in different parties in relation to these new | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
clauses I bring to the House this evening and indeed from party is not | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
represented in this House, in particular the women's equality | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
party. They are very effective campaigners in the issue of revenge | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
pornography and they would be authors of new clauses 61 and 62 | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
that stand in my name this evening. The honourable lady speaking from | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
the opposition front bench did quite rightly say that it was just last | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
year that we undertook the criminalisation of revenge | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
pornography and that was quite a remarkable step. None of us should | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
underestimate the importance of what was done at that time. I think | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
though, and this picks up the point that the honourable lady made, the | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
statistics to demonstrate already that this is a stubborn problem and | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
one where it is clear that more action is going to be required if we | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
are to bring about the changes in attitude and behaviour that will | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
ultimately see this sort of behaviour reduced and hopefully | :18:59. | :19:08. | |
eventually eliminated. I commend the honourable gentleman on bringing | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
this amendment forward. He reflected on the importance of this law the | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
government brought in. At that time, we talked about the importance of | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
recognising the impact of online crimes is very different to those of | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
off-line crimes. Does he join me in saying that while it can be easy to | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
say what is illegal off-line is illegal online, in fact that misses | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
the point because the impact can be so much greater and more devastating | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
to the people involved? Indeed, and when it comes to the distress it has | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
caused, I will touch on that point later on when it comes to moving in | :19:45. | :19:52. | |
relation to new clause 62 in particular because the right | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
honourable lady is absolutely right that we should focus in relation to | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
these offences on the outcomes and the effects that are enjoyed by | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
those who suffered the abuse, and I use that term advisedly. In the | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
period from April to December of last year, we have seen 1160 cases | :20:13. | :20:22. | |
reported. Now that is remarkable given the time periods that we are | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
dealing with. That was in England and Wales alone. Only 11% of those | :20:28. | :20:35. | |
cases that have been ported have led the charge. There have been 82 | :20:36. | :20:42. | |
prosecutions and 74 cautions resulting from these charges. And | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
that suggests to me that when we speak about the need to see a change | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
in attitude and behaviour, in fact the first place in which we need to | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
see that change is amongst some of the criminal justice professionals | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
dealing with this. The police officers, prosecutors and judges. It | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
takes me back to my own early career when, as a trainee and solicitor, I | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
worked for the fiscal service in Scotland. One of my first bosses | :21:19. | :21:27. | |
then was the first female Lord Advocate first solicitor Lord | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
Advocate in Scotland. She was working in Crown Office in Edinburgh | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
and she did along with other colleagues tremendous amounts to | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
drive forward improvements in the way in which the victims of sexual | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
abuse in general but child sexual abuse in particular were treated by | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
the court system. A lot of it seems very rudimentary and basic stuff now | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
but in the early and mid-19 90s, when we were arranging for court | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
visits ahead of trials for victims, and the victims of the sort of | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
offences to give their evidence from behind a screen, it seemed | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
revolutionary and it met with very substantial resistance from the... | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
Not so much the police but certainly many within the legal profession. I | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
believe we were right to drive these changes. That has been demonstrated | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
by the way in which the law and procedure in that area has developed | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
ever since and I think a similar attitude and similar drive is now | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
required in relation to the offences of revenge pornography. New clause | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
46 goes I think right to the heart of this. This is something where in | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
fact I don't think we would necessarily need to wait for a | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
review all seek further where the cases and procedures will develop it | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
because the effect of new clause 46 is to extend the protection of | :23:05. | :23:12. | |
anonymity to victims of revenge pornography. Something which is a | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
principle that is accepted by the government in relation to the | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
victims of forced marriage and again I welcome the new clause 55 that | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
extends that protection. But it surely strikes at the heart of the | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
offence that we introduced last year, that what we are seeking to | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
protect here is those women who are in essence the subject of an | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
invasion of privacy. There is no meaningful remedy available to them. | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
If making complaints, seeking to enforce criminal sanctions that come | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
as a result of that invasion of privacy only makes them vulnerable | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
to further invasion of privacy and that is why I think it is important | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
that at some point, by whatever means, and I will listen very | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
carefully to what the Minister has to say when she comes the reply to | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
this, we should be looking at an extension of the protection of | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
anonymity of victims. New clause 47 allows the court to make | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
compensation orders to victims of revenge pornography. Many | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
campaigning this field would like to see a full remedy available. In | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
fact, I think that would have taken us somewhat beyond the scope of this | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
bill but again, this is something where we ought to be taking | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
advantage of the quite remarkable consensus we have seen across the | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
Chamber tonight and I hope the government will recognise that and | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
take full advantage of it because we ought to make the best of that | :24:59. | :25:04. | |
consensus. New clause 61 changes the taste from one of an intent to cause | :25:05. | :25:17. | |
harm in -- and we would extend that to include recklessness. It brings | :25:18. | :25:34. | |
us into line with the protections already afforded the people in | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
Scotland through the abusive behaviour and sexual harm Scotland | :25:39. | :25:48. | |
Act of 2010. The text also is... The offence would also be extended from | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
one of which require disclosure of this material to threatening | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
disclosure. Research has indicated no fewer than one in ten ex partners | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
make this threat, and again, if the outcome is to be meaningful | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
protection, then I think that's the extend the coverage the one | :26:11. | :26:17. | |
involving a threat to expose all disclose rather is something which | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
would make sense. That is something which is pursued in the control or | :26:23. | :26:32. | |
delete campaign. The final new clause standing in my name is new | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
clause 62 and this brings me to the point made by the right honourable | :26:38. | :26:49. | |
lady, the member for Basingstoke. I am not suggesting for a moment that | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
he spoke for too long because he hasn't, he has been brief, but we | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
are time-limited. Another honourable gentleman has indicated he wishes to | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
speak and I trust he will be brief because I am quite sure the House | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
would be disappointed if the minister did not have time to answer | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
the many points which have been made to her this evening. I am grateful | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
to you for saying I have not spoken long because I have spoken longer | :27:17. | :27:24. | |
than I intended to! I do think it would assist the House if I were | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
able to explain new clause 62. This which we striking here is that in | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
extending the definition of the offence in the way we seek to do, we | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
are seeking to cover the distress that is caused, the outcome of the | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
behaviour which is suffered by the victims of this abuse. At the | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
moment, it is drawn tightly for reasons I think are understood by | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
all, but again, the experience of the time this has been in the field | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
sees the distress is the same for those who have suffered this why the | :28:04. | :28:12. | |
disclosure and that it would make sense to ensure that the Harman | :28:13. | :28:20. | |
distress covered there is equally covered by criminal law. I was not | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
going to make a speech but I thought I had better use this opportunity to | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
explain hilar V intervention. I would like to apologise to the | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
Minister. I don't normally get worked up in this place, not least | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
because my mother is normally watching on BBC Parliament! But I | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
get very passionate about this and I'm delighted to see the Minister | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
debating this on several occasions and he was very kind enough to meet | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
with me. However, we lost our powers because of the fact that policing is | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
not involved in Wales. Northern Ireland and Scotland have kept their | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
helicopter services yet in Wales, we have been put into a centralised | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
service called the National police service which means we have had our | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
helicopter pulled. The only figures we have available for the month of | :29:22. | :29:31. | |
January, the 86% of requests by police officers was not honoured. It | :29:32. | :29:40. | |
is not only the police officer not having the service and support they | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
deserve, the residence are clearly being let down and let's remember, | :29:46. | :29:53. | |
we're now entering high season, where the population will swell | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
considerably, not least where people will enjoy our fantastic coastline, | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
and the use of that helicopter would be far more important at that time. | :30:03. | :30:09. | |
Devolved policing is not just about securing equality for Wales. It will | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
be devolved to cities in England. Why is it not devolved in the case | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
of Wales? I'm very disappointed that the Labour Party are abstaining this | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
evening. I'm delighted we have the spirit of the Lib Dems. Where are | :30:24. | :30:36. | |
the Welsh MPs? There is only one current... There have only been two | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
Labour MPs for Wales in the Chamber. And I'm delighted that my honourable | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
friend the Newport East is in the Chamber as well. But these debates | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
will be recorded by the people of Wales and it will be reported by the | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
press and we will let the Beagle of Wales drew their own conclusions. | :30:58. | :31:08. | |
Minister. This has been a wide-ranging debate but before I | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
respond to be many opposition and backbench amendments in this group, | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
I hope you will forgive me if I touch briefly on the key government | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
amendments are new clauses. If I could start with new clause 55, | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
which confers lifelong anonymity on victims of forced marriage. | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
Forced marriages are not current practice and this Government is | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
determined to do everything we can to tackle it. That is why we | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
introduced a specific offence of forced marriage in 2014, and why we | :31:39. | :31:46. | |
are amending this bill to introduce lifelong anonymity for victims. We | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
are encouraged by the first conviction for the new offence, | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
secured in June last year. But there is still work to be done. Part of | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
that is doing all we can to encourage more victims to speak out | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
about this horrific crime. We know that forced marriage can be hidden | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
and we want to ensure that victims have the confidence to come forward, | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
so they get the support they need and perpetrators are brought to | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
justice. Introducing lifelong anonymity will help achieve that aim | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
and this measure is modelled on the anonymity we introduced for victims | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
of FGM last year was dubbed means that victims of forced marriage are | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
anonymous from the time an allegation is made and will prohibit | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
the broadcast of any information likely to result in them being | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
identified to the police. The protection given will be broad and | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
wide-ranging, covering traditional red and broadcast media and | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
information published online. Breach of the prohibition will be an | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
offence punishable by an unlimited fine. We believe this measure taken | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
together with the wider package of work the Government is taking | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
forward on forced marriage will send a clear message, this apparent | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
practice will not be tolerated in the UK. -- abhorrence. Turning to | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
news clause 54 and amendment 112, the cancellation of travel documents | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
is an important tool in the fight against terrorism and in particular | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
of disrupting travel to conflict zones to fight or received terrorist | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
training. At present there is a gap in the powers to seize cancelled or | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
invalid travel documents. Authorities would have the power to | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
seize a cancelled travel document if they intended it at a port, while | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
the police can see is a cancelled British passport away from the port | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
but there is no power to seize a foreign travel document away from | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
the port. New clause 50 4000 gap. We do not expect the new powers to be | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
used often. We expect many of the documents to be picked up at the | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
border. But it would enable us to ensure a travel document cancelled | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
after a person holding it entered the UK could be seized. To make this | :34:03. | :34:07. | |
new power factor, the new clause would also enable a constable to | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
enter premises to search for and seize invalid travel documents, both | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
British passports and foreign travel documents. It would also make it a | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
criminal offence intentionally to obstruct or to seek to frustrate a | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
search for a cancelled travel document. Turning to Government new | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
clause 56, this covers similar ground to the new clause ten tabled | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
by the honourable Lady from Rotherham, namely the need to spread | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
the practice in how local authorities discharge their | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
licensing functions in respect to taxis and private hire vehicles and | :34:45. | :34:47. | |
the dissimilar to that tabled by the honourable member for Swansea East | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
in committee. The Government is committed to taking action on this | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
matter. We strongly agree that continued work with the taxi and | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
private hire vehicles sector is needed to reduce the risk posed to | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
children and young people from sexual exploitation by that small | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
number of cab drivers who seek to abuse their position of trust. If I | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
can turn to some of the points raised, and I will write to the | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
honourable laid on the specifics because of lack of time, but I can | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
assure her, -- the honourable Lady, we intend to bring statutory | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
guidance and new clause 56, and, with other legislation uses the word | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
may, what our intention is clear, a duty to have regard to the guidance | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
sets a high bar and a public authority will not be able to set | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
aside the guidance without good reason. I will write to the | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
honourable Lady about all other matters covered by the statutory | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
guidance and our timetable for implementation. I hope she will | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
therefore be happy to withdraw her new clause ten. Turning to some of | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
the amendments tabled by others, new clause 15, sentencing guideline | :36:00. | :36:07. | |
review. I have met my honourable friend on this and all amendments he | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
has tabled, and he knows from discussions with the sentencing | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
minister, the ministering -- the Minister of Justice and the Ministry | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
of Justice is looking at sentencing overall with a view to bringing | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
forward proposals in a bill that is being announced -- was announced in | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
the gracious speech recently. On that basis, I hope you will agree it | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
would be right to look at all of these matters in the round rather | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
than looking at them in isolation. Turning to new clause 16, can I pay | :36:41. | :36:47. | |
tribute to my honourable friend for North West Hampshire. He has worked | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
on this matter of soliciting for over 20 years and he deserves great | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
credit for all he has achieved in regard to the soliciting, using card | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
in telephone boxes and other matters. Certainly I think we can | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
all agree that the telephone boxes across the country are much cleaner | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
and more pleasant, those that are left, because of the work he has | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
done. He has indicated that his main focus is in tackling the organised | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
crime groups who profit from exploitation of vulnerable people. I | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
think that is a laudable aim and one that I share with him. But I hope he | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
would agree it would be premature to legislate before we fully understand | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
the most effective ways to disrupt criminal -- the ability of criminal | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
gangs to raise income through prostituted -- prostitution and | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
other matters. We need to know more about the extent to which organised | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
criminality derides profits in this way and properly to consider whether | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
their existing -- there are existing powers which could be used to | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
disrupt organised crime gangs operating in this way. Without this | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
information I am concerned we would provide police with a power that | :38:03. | :38:08. | |
would be onerous and perhaps ineffective in use if gangs could | :38:09. | :38:14. | |
simply print new cars. He has explained the business case for | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
these cards very effectively, so I have asked my officials to work with | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
the National Crime Agency to develop our understanding of the link | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
between organised crime and prostitution and they undertake to | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
keep my honourable friend and -- informed of progress and make sure | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
he knows what we intend in those matters. If I can come now to new | :38:34. | :38:42. | |
clause 67, conduct in a public office, -- misconduct, last | :38:43. | :38:49. | |
Parliament legislated for any offence supplementing the common law | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
offence, and carries a maximum sentence of 14 years. It has been | :38:54. | :39:00. | |
enforced since April 20 15. I will move on to new clause two, the | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
matter of devolution of policing raised by the honourable Lady. I | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
always get this wrong, please forgive me dost-mac we did discuss | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
in committee. My pronunciation is poor. The honourable Lady argued | :39:16. | :39:24. | |
powerfully for devolution of policing in Wales and the Government | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
has been clear that in the absence of consensus, policing should not be | :39:28. | :39:34. | |
devolved to the Welsh Government and National Assembly until that | :39:35. | :39:36. | |
consensus can be reached. I will give way. Does she not understand | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
that the commission was a cross-party commission set up by the | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
UK Government, which included her party? I know he feels strongly | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
about this. I do accept his apology from earlier. I promise that I was | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
not smirking at anything he was saying and I know the policing | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
minister is here and we'll be happy to meet him again, as he has done | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
previously on the matter. But the current arrangement for policing | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
works well and proponents of devolution have failed to address | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
the significant risks that would arise if these arrangements were | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
disrupted. I disagree with her when she says that policing in England | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
and Wales is set up urban areas, I represent a rural constituency in | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
England and I certainly can say that way policing operates is right for | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
my constituency using Police and Crime Commissioners and devolving | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
power to them to make sure we have the right policing for each area. | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
But we have the Wales Bill, which we are debating tomorrow and I think it | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
is important those matters are debated fully. I'm conscious of time | :40:47. | :40:55. | |
and I want to try and get through as much as possible. Turning to the | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
issues of digital crime, we debated much of the points that have been | :41:04. | :41:10. | |
raised during committee. My right honourable friend from Basingstoke | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
has also made some important and powerful points about the law around | :41:14. | :41:24. | |
digital crime. I, however, do not accept the premise that the criminal | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
law is defective in this area. I think it is important to knowledge | :41:29. | :41:30. | |
these crimes are the same crimes, the fact they are committed online | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
does not change it. I would not wish to create a whole new suite of | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
offences which confused the courts and made it more difficult to get | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
convictions. I will give way. Could she perhaps take a moment to explain | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
why the police are finding it so difficult to secure convictions, | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
particularly around revenge pornography, if the law in this area | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
and other areas of online crime is so clear was lack She will | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
understand that getting a conviction is not just about the offence in | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
legislation or President. It is about the evidence that can be | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
gathered and presented with evidence to a jury. I am not saying that we | :42:12. | :42:17. | |
are in any way perfect in this regard and there are many debates we | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
can have about how best to get convictions. I have said that I | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
would very much like to meet her, together with my noble friend, the | :42:24. | :42:30. | |
baroness Shields, who has responsibility for the digital bill | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
that is coming forward. Because I want to make sure that we are | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
covering these issues and that we make it as easy for the courts as | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
possible to get convictions. But I do not accept that the answer is | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
simply to create a whole new suite of offensive that may confuse law | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
enforcement and prosecutors. But I do want to discuss this with her and | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
others to make sure we do address these points. New clause 44, and I | :42:57. | :43:05. | |
am darting around, I realise, talked about the specialist digital units. | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
We discussed this in committee. It is a matter that the way policing | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
decisions are taken is a matter for chief officers, not something that | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
the Home Office should legislate to say that every force should operate | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
in this way, it is down to chief officers locally and Police and | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
Crime Commissioners. I am coming to new clause six. I want to take on | :43:31. | :43:39. | |
all the points about child protection together. We have had | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
many debates on the issue of vulnerable young people, children | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
and how best to protect them, how to stop them going missing, and I pay | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
tribute to the honourable Lady from Stockport, who has been such a | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
pioneer in this area. When she talks, I know there is common sense | :43:56. | :44:03. | |
there. I am determined that we tackle this but I think we need to | :44:04. | :44:06. | |
do it in the right way, which is why I have convened the round table in a | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
couple of weeks to look at the overall issue of child abduction | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
warning notices because I am not convinced that a warning notice that | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
something that is a construct of the police that is related to the child | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
abduction offence is necessarily the right way to make sure that we | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
protect those vulnerable young people. So I want to look at all | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
matters regarding child abduction warning notices and the possibility, | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
and that they she has been invited to the round table, because I want | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
to look at everything we do in this area and make sure we have got the | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
right tools in the armoury or law-enforcement, but because it is | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
so important the police are able to use those tools and protect young | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
people with the right tools for them. I am conscious of time and I | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
know we perhaps need to have a moment before nine o'clock. I hope | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
therefore that honourable and right honourable members will accept the | :45:06. | :45:07. | |
Government amendments and withdraw the run. Just to close therefore, I | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
must ask the question, we have had devolution in Wales the 17 years so | :45:16. | :45:18. | |
why has Wales been treated differently in terms of policing to | :45:19. | :45:26. | |
the other nations? And the policing views of Wales are different, our | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
experience has shown that such services are drawn inevitably | :45:33. | :45:34. | |
eastwards and away from the rural areas where we most need them. | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
Finally, I would strongly argue the absence of consensus is now a | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
historic issue. There is consensus in Wales for Wales policing, for | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
policing to be devolved to Wales. There is consensus for the National | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
Assembly for Wales and consensus among all four Police and Crime | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
Commissioners. The question is that new clause to Maccabi read a second | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
time. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
Division, clear the lobby. Order. The question is new clause | :46:11. | :47:36. | |
two be read a second time. Order. Order. The ice to the right, | :47:37. | :58:26. | |
12, the noes to the left, 262. VI is to the right, 12, the noes to the | :58:27. | :58:42. | |
left, 262. The noes have it. Unlock. Minister to move new classes 54-57 | :58:43. | :58:52. | |
formally. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
"no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Sarah Champion. New clause | :58:57. | :59:06. | |
60 formally. The question is new clause 60 be added to the bill. As | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
Division. Cleared the lobby. Unlock. The question is that new | :59:15. | :01:15. | |
clause 60 be added to the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say | :01:16. | :01:16. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". Order, order. The ayes to the right, | :01:17. | :09:22. | |
157. The noes to the -- the noes develop. The ayes to the red, 157, | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
the noes to the left, 257. The noes habit. Unlock. Order the Minister to | :09:30. | :09:41. | |
move Government amendments formally. Thank you. The question is that the | :09:42. | :09:52. | |
Government amendments made. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. Order, order. Consideration | :09:58. | :10:07. | |
completed, I will now suspend ayes for about five minutes in order to | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
make a decision about certification. The division bells will be run two | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
minutes before the ayes resumes. Following my certification, the | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
Government will table the appropriate consent motions, copies | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
of which will be available shortly in the vote office and will be | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
distributed by doorkeepers. Order. Order, order. I can now inform the | :10:28. | :14:41. | |
House I have completed certification of the bill, as required by the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
standing order. And that I have made no change to the provisional | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
certificate issued last week. Copies of my final certificate will be made | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
available in the vote office and on the Parliamentary website. | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
Understanding -- under standing order -- under the standing order, | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
copies of the motions are available in the vote office and on the | :15:07. | :15:09. | |
Parliamentary website and have been made available to members in the | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
chamber. Does the Minister intend to move the consent motions? Indeed. | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
Under standing order number 80 three a.m., subsection four, the House | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
must resolve itself forthwith into the legislative grand committee, | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
England and Wales, and thereafter into the legislative grand | :15:34. | :15:34. | |
committee, England. Order, order. Order, order. There will now be a | :15:35. | :16:00. | |
joint debate on the consent motion for England and Wales and the | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
consent motion for England. I remind honourable members that although all | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
members may speak in the debate, if there are divisions, on the members | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote on the | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
consent motion for England and Wales and other those representing | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
constituencies in England may vote in the consent motion for England. I | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
call the Minister to move the consent motion for England and Wales | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
undermine the Minister that under standing order 83 M, on moving the | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
consent motion for England and Wales, he must also inform the | :16:35. | :16:37. | |
committee of the terms of the consent motion for England. | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
The question is the consent motion relating to England and Wales as on | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
the notice paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I remind | :16:56. | :17:07. | |
honourable members that if there is a division of the consent motion for | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
England and Wales, only members representing constituencies in | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
England and Wales may bode. This extends to expressing an opinion. | :17:17. | :17:25. | |
The question is the consent motion relating to England and Wales as on | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
the notice paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Is this relating | :17:35. | :17:47. | |
to England, that one there? Order, order. The House shall resolve | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
itself into the legislative grand committee England. I remind | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
honourable members that no further debate on the consent motion for | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
England is permitted and if there is a division, only members | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
representing constituencies in England may bode this extends to | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
expressing an opinion. I called the Minister to move the consent motion | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
formally. The question is the consent motion relating to England. | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
ayes habit, the ayes habit. Order, order. | :18:29. | :18:54. | |
Order, order. The legislative grand committee, England and Wales, and | :18:55. | :19:05. | |
legislative grand committee England have consented to the certified | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
clauses of and the schedules to the policing and crime Bill and at the | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
legislative grand committee England and Wales has agreed to the | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
certified amendment made to the bill in the committee. Third reading. | :19:18. | :19:30. | |
Queen's consent. Secretary of State to move the third reading. Miss is | :19:31. | :19:42. | |
May. -- Theresa May. Since I became Home Secretary, I have put in place | :19:43. | :19:51. | |
the most radical programme of police reform. But the task of reform is | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
not yet finished. If we are to continue ensuring that the police | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
can protect the most vulnerable in our society, if we are to continue | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
helping the police build trust between themselves and the public | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
and if we are to continue ensuring the police and other emergency | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
services deliver for the tax payer and the policing and crime bill will | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
allow us to do that. It will improve the efficiency and effectiveness of | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
our emergency services by collaborating, it will enable police | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
and crime commission nurse to take on the Fire Services, it will make | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
changes to precharge bail, and it will ensure that those experiencing | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
a mental health crisis receive the help they need rather than prolonged | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
detention in a police cell and it will radically reformed the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
complaints and disciplinary systems to help strengthen public confidence | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
and trust in policing, an outcome I know will be welcomed by the | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
Hillsborough families who have campaigned tirelessly for effective | :20:56. | :20:57. | |
accountability in policing when things go badly wrong. Through its | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
passage in the House, the bill has been subject to many debates. I | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
welcome the broad measure of cross-party support for many of its | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
provisions. I particularly would like to commend the work of my right | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
honourable and honourable friends and victims and the Minister for | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
preventing abuse, exploitation and cramped together with all members. | :21:24. | :21:31. | |
There have been a small number of areas of disagreement, most | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
noticeably on the role of PCCs, the role of volunteers within police | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
forces and the cut-off for taking disciplinary action against former | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
police officers but I am pleased we have been able to make some | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
progress. I am sure that all these issues will continue to be examined | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
carefully as the bill makes its way to the Upper House but the process | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
of scrutiny, the bill has woody been subject to, is greatly strengthened | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
and improved. Among the important measures added to the bill at | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
committee stage others to reform the governments of the IPCC, strengthen | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
inspection powers, enhance the powers of the police to retain DNA | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
and fingerprints of persons previously convicted of an offence, | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
provide precharge bail conditions relating to travel, strengthen | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
cross-border powers, confers lifelong anonymity on the victims of | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
forced marriage and strengthen the safeguarding of vulnerable people | :22:32. | :22:33. | |
through the introduction of statutory guidance. These additional | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
measures alongside those contained within the bill upon its | :22:40. | :22:41. | |
introduction will support the vital work of our police forces. They will | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
put in place provisions to ensure the greater efficiency and | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
effectiveness of our emergency services, introduced changes to | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
protect the rights of the public, and they will provide important | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
powers to help the police cut crime and keep our community safe. This | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
bill will ensure that the police can continue to meet the challenges they | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
face day in and day out and it will ensure we can get on with the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
important job of police reform and I commend the bill to the House. Mr | :23:12. | :23:20. | |
Andy Burnham. The fairest thing we can say about this bill is that it | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
is a decidedly mixed bag. On the one hand, it makes improvements to | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
police accountability. On the other, we believe it undermines the | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
independence of the Fire Service and indeed the police service by | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
allowing volunteers to replace front-line staff. But it does leave | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
this House in a better state than we found it and I would like to pay | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
tribute to my Shadow ministerial team, all of whom have played an | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
important part in improving this bill, and I would like to also thank | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
the Home Secretary and her ministerial team for the | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
constructive way in which they continue to debate these matters | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
with us. Thanking all members of the bill committee, the chair of the | :24:11. | :24:18. | |
committee. The bill does make real improvements. However, we have real | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
concerns. The issues: the four categories, measures we support, | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
measures we have helped improve, measures we oppose and the missed | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
opportunities. I will go briefly through those four things. On the | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
measures we support, the super complaint system is a genuine step | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
forward and we congratulate the Home Secretary on bringing that to be | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
house as we do the strengthening of the eye PCC and regulation of the | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
police in general. We also believe the ban on the use of police cells | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
in a mental health crisis is a crucially important step forward but | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
it needs to be matched with a commissioning strategy in the NHS to | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
make sure that there is alternative places of safety for people who no | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
longer will be held in police cells. On the measures we have helped | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
improve, I pay to be to my honourable friend for the work she | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
has done to strengthen the measures on child sexual exploitation, | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
particularly on the licensing regime for private hire vehicles and there | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
are further improvements. On police bail, my honourable friend pushed | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
the issue in committee based on the case of the individual who waltzed | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
out of the country on police bail. I'm pleased the government has | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
responded but Mark rally in evidence to the Select Committee still said | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
that there should be the tightest of regimes whereby people have to | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
surrender passports while still in the custody of police and the police | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
station and I believe the bill could still be tightened on this | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
particular point. We have had a good exchange today on police misconduct. | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
We welcome the fact the government has been prepared to extend the | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
12-month lament the exceptional instances of misconduct. We will | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
work with the Home Secretary and police Minister on getting that | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
right but that appears to be a genuine step forward. On the | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
measures we oppose, there are two main measures. Firstly, we believe | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
the greater use of volunteers in the police service is dangerous in the | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
context of further cuts being made to police budgets. Contrary to what | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
the government promised at the spending review, police services in | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
England and Wales are facing real terms cuts to their budget this | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
year, cuts which are not backfilled by the local precept. We believe to | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
do this without setting out a vision for policing was saying precisely | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
what the boundaries are of what volunteers can and cannot do is | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
dangerous and the government needs to think again on this matter before | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
going down this road. On the Fire Service, my honourable friend the | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
West Ham made a powerful case saying we should not just merge the two and | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
make the Fire Service the junior partner to the police services. This | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
bill allows a hostile takeover effectively of a Fire Service, | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
authorised by the Home Secretary but over and above the heads of local | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
people without their consent and we do not believe that will strengthen | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
the Fire Service. The Fire Service has an important role as a separate | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
statutory service. The single employer model has not been fully | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
debated in terms of all of its pros and cons and we feel this is a road | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
down which the government should not go because they have failed to make | :27:57. | :28:04. | |
the case for it. I will finish on the missed opportunities. I conclude | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
this debate on this third reading with a sense that Parliament has | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
missed a moment to make real changes on the back of the historic | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
Hillsboro verdict. The day we debated two things, firstly that | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
there should be a principle of equality in legal funding for | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
bereaved families where police are represented. Secondly, we have | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
debated the promised the Prime Minister made to the victims of | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
press abuse and press intrusion, that there will be a second stage | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
enquiry looking at the relationship between the police and the press. On | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
both fronts, we have not made any progress tonight. It was | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
disappointing the government chose to oppose the measures we want this | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
side of the House put forward. Representatives of the Hillsborough | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
support group were here today and I can say to the House that they have | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
gone home disappointed and feeling the Parliament is already forgetting | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
what their fight was all about. It was a monumental miscarriage of | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
justice that now requires a commensurate response from this | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
House, changes made to stop any family in future going through what | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
they have been through but sadly families can still go through it | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
because they can go into those inquests row with grief, facing QC's | :29:26. | :29:34. | |
hide at great expense and face aggressive questioning and find the | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
whole experience unsatisfactory as many families continue to do. It's | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
disappointing to meet the government was not even able to accept the | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
principle that we should have equal funding and it would have been a | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
step forward had been been able to do that. I understand that they are | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
asking Bishop James Jones to look at these matters tours but this goes | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
broader than Hillsborough. This is about the fairness in our criminal | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
justice system and I do believe that the government is missing an | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
opportunity by not acting on this quickly. It is quite frankly obscene | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
for police forces to continue to spend lots amounts of money hiring | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
aggressive lawyers to challenge families in the way that they do at | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
inquest. This is a scandal that should not be allowed to continue. | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
We will continue to fight on this side of the House against it until | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
there is real change. In conclusion, this was an opportunity to make this | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
country fairer, even up the scales and tip them in the favour of | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
ordinary families and away from the establishment but I fear we have | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
power to do that will be up to the Other Place to see that can make | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
progress. Who vote against the principle of equal funding for | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
bereaved families? I can't believe that anybody actually would vote | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
against it. There is a debate about how you achieve it but really, | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
people can vote against that principle? I find that very strange | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
indeed. And how can members tonight go through the lobbies, voting | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
against the Prime Minister's commitment to the victims of | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
hacking, press intrusion and abuse? The government has weakened its | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
position night. It said there would be an enquiry and now it is a | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
question of there might an enquiry once outstanding legal matters are | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
concluded and that is not fair to those families who were given a firm | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
promise from the Prime Minister. So this is my direct appeal to the | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
Other Place, but the quality of legal funding for families, but for | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
the honouring of that promise to the victims of press intrusion and make | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
Hillsborough a moment of real change in this country. | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
It is a pleasure to follow the Shadow Home Secretary. He was very | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
generous with his praise to those involved in the Hillsborough | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
campaign but I think the House should recognise is part in that | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
campaign and the incredible work he has done. He spoke with great | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
passion on this subject, even today and I think he should be commended | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
for what he has done. It is not often that we come to praise the | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
Government from the point of view of the Home Affairs Select Committee, | :32:20. | :32:21. | |
but I think they have done quite well in this bill in picking up a | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
number of the recommendations we have made about the detention of | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
those in police cells, which is now going to be stopped, and in | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
particular the provisions concerning the seizure of travel documents, of | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
those who have committed or are suspected of committing criminal | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
offences. We would like, we would have liked it if the Home Secretary | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
had gone further, accepting the evidence of Mark Rowley, but she has | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
gone a long way to dealing with the issues that we were concerned with | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
and I am glad this provision is in the bill. The third recommendation | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
she has accepted and which we are grateful for is that concerning the | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
continuous time that people spend on bail. We sat and listened to the | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
evidence of Paul Gambaccini and others who came before the | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
committee, who could not understand why they'll kept being renewed month | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
after month after month with nobody telling them what was going to | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
happen. Reputations have been ruined as a result of this. I think of all | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
the provisions in this bill, that will stand out. It means the police | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
will not be able -- it does not mean the police will not be able to do | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
that -- the job but people will not be held in limbo continuously. So we | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
welcome the fact she has adopted all three of those measures we have put | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
forward. I want to thank the Minister for policing, who is one of | :33:55. | :33:56. | |
those rare ministers who actually rights to the committee and says, we | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
have decided to take up your recommendations. This does not | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
happen very often and the fact he did it shows the courtesy of the | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
Minister but also his willingness to take on suggestions, obviously with | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
the support of the Home Secretary. I agree very strongly with what the | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
Shadow Home Secretary says about Levinson and I cannot understand the | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
reluctance of the Government not to accept fact we will have to have a | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
second enquiry. We do need that sickening choir. It was promised to | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
myself and to the chair of the Justice committee. -- we do need | :34:34. | :34:43. | |
that second enquiry. After Mr Speaker had granted the urgent | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
question that resulted in the entire debate occurring on hacking. I think | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
we should try and make sure that we have some kind of timetable that | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
will give comfort to those who have been waiting for that second | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
enquiry. In conclusion, at Home Office questions I mentioned the | :35:06. | :35:07. | |
fact the Home Secretary is that the third longest Home Secretary in the | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
history of our country. In fact, you have to look back to 1822 defined | :35:12. | :35:19. | |
Viscount Sidmouth, who served for ten years, who served for longer | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
than she has done. I do not know whether in fact that is going to be | :35:23. | :35:29. | |
her fate, but... It is important to remember, there has a revolution in | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
the policing landscape under this Home Secretary. Everything has been | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
turned upside down. There have been massive changes. When she said the | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
reform agenda has finished, when she said it is ongoing, it gave us | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
trepidation because we would have to continue that scrutiny. But there | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
are many good things in this bill. I'm sure we will return to Policing | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
and Crime Bill again in this Parliament and I hope that the | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
government will be able to accept even more recommendations that the | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
Select Committee has put forward. The question is that the bill be | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
read a third time. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. The question is as on the | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, | :36:22. | :36:23. | |
"No." I think the ayes have it. Provision number three. As many as | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." I think the ayes | :36:28. | :36:35. | |
have it. Provision number four. As many as are of the opinion say, | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
"Aye," to the contrary, "No." The ayes have it. We now come to motion | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
number five. Relating, I think to the Business Committee. Mr Bill | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
Wiggins. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." The ayes have it. Motion | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
number six, the women and equality is committee. The question is as on | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
the order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
contrary, "No." The ayes have it. Number seven, the Justice committee. | :37:07. | :37:08. | |
As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." The | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
ayes have it. We continue the adjournment. The question is that | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
this House do adjourn. Mr Tim Farron. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
teddy bear wort is the coalbed adult mental health ward at the General | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
Hospital, providing essential inpatient acute mental health | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
services to people in South Lakeland and beyond. -- the Kent Amir Ward. | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
Some weeks ago, the Cumbria partnership and NHS trust which | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
looks after mental health in the county proposed closure of this war | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
by the end of June. With new admissions ceasing at the end of May | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
just gone. It is the second time in my time as an MP that this war has | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
faced the threat of closure. Ten years ago, similar proposals to | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
close the ward spark huge outcry from residents. Thousands of people | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
signed petitions, wrote to health bosses and something like 3000 of us | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
marched through Kendal town centre in pretty shocking weather to voice | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
our opposition. The campaign took many months, but we won it. Our | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
victory in saving the ward was a hugely important moment for our | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
community, because mental health is so often a Thembu. The suffering of | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
those living with mental health conditions and their families is so | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
often done in silence, in private. In the face of a threat of the | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
services that those with mental health conditions rely upon, far too | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
many would choose to look the other way, but not in South Lakeland. That | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
campaign should that local people are prepared to stand up in | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
solidarity with those living with mental health conditions and with | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
their families. So I am extremely proud of my community and in the | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
face of this latest threats, the character of our community is once | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
again shining through. Westmorland General Hospital is the main | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
hospital which serves the Lake District. And much of the rest of | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
rule Southern Cumbria. I have learned over the years that the | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
tendency to overlook the health needs of rural communities like ours | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
means that I need to be permanently vigilant in my defence and promotion | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
of our hospital. The campaigns we have run to win new counter | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
services, to prevent closure of the hospital itself and to increase | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
surgery at West Mall in general are testament to the fact that ours is a | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
special community that will fight with unique energy and tenacity for | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
decent mental and physical health care that is high-quality and | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
accessible. Once again, it would appear that we must roll up our | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
sleeves and fight to defend our services. As I said, this ward | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
provides 12 beds, the majority of which are usually full at any given | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
time and the people occupying these beds are often suffering from the | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
most serious of mental health conditions. For much of the time, | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
the majority of patients staying on the ward are under section. The | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
apparent trigger for the proposed closure came after Cumbria | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
partnership trust was inspected as part of the CQC both my | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
comprehensive expansion programme last November. The report published | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
in March awarded a rating of requires improvement to the teddy | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
bear Macca one. The CQC highlighted particular concerns relating to | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
privacy, access to outdoor areas and the internal physical structure of | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
the ward. Having visited the ward myself recently, I have to say that | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
the quality of staffing and patient care is absolutely outstanding. In | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
fact, the CQC was surprised itself that the trust's response to the | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
report was to close the ward, believing the upgrades needed to | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
meet required standards were perfectly feasible. This is a ward | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
providing excellent care and outstanding staff in a physical | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
setting that requires some improvement. It does not require | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
closure and indeed the CQC has been quite clear that they did not | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
recommend closure or anything of the sort. So the ward is Citroen is -- | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
situation in Westmorland General Hospital. The partnership | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
responsible for mental health in Cumbria are tenants of the more can | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
be hospitals trust. The hospital is fairly moderate with plenty of car | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
parking and a beautiful setting looking out towards the Lakeland | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
fells. If you had to go to hospital, I cannot think of anywhere more | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
pleasant you could be, which is not an important one we are talking | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
about supporting people living with mental health conditions. The | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
hospital building is not full. There is a great deal of space on the site | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
will stop ward space that is either not used or underused. There are | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
enormous opportunities to seek more spacious, more suitable, better | :42:19. | :42:19. | |
quality accommodation elsewhere in the hospital. It is clear that the | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
Kentmere ward needs upgrading. It is not ideal but it is on the first | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
floor, it could do with more space for the unit and greater privacy for | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
the patients. There will be projected costs of can the new | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
building to meet requirements of an upgrade and the Minister may have | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
seen those projections. They will no doubt be expensive. In conclusion, | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
the Minister is probably meant to draw -- the conclusion, is that the | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
only affordable solution is to close the ward. The Minister is expected | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
to read his brief and fob me off. I rate him highly and I know he has | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
much better judgment than that. The reality is, the needs of patients in | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
South Lakeland could be met on the current Westmorland General Hospital | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
site and an immediate project should be launched alongside the hospital's | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
trust to ensure there is a larger unit with a groan for access, with | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
greater levels of gender segregation, greater privacy, | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
greater dignity and greater safety. If there is a will, then the wait is | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
staring you in the face. But whatever the challenges, in my | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
conversations with patients, their families, staff, the CQC and with | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
the trust, it is obvious that there are serious concerns about the | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
detrimental impact that closure will have on patients' conditions. Happy | :43:45. | :43:53. | |
to give way. What you are saying echoes so much of what happened in | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
York when the hospital closed nine months ago. The consequence has been | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
loss of life to my constituents and it seems that the primacy of | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
decision-making is not in the clinical need but more on the | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
physical environment. That has to be wrong. Does it not? I am grateful | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
for her intervention. I express solidarity with her campaign that | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
she is running in York. It is a great concern to me that the CQC | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
will make recommendations that will require improvement and potentially | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
not offer solutions to maintain a plausible and sustainable provision | :44:32. | :44:37. | |
instead. We have to make a judgment and that judgment as to be, is a | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
good service that is not perfect, better than no service and the | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
answer is going to be yes. I am very grateful to her for her | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
intervention. So with regard to the Kentmere ward had Westmorland | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
General Hospital, the quality of care, as I have said, is excellent. | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
That is stated in the report. The staff are excellent. The ward needs | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
upgrading but the closure would harm the health of some of the most | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
vulnerable people in our community. It is utterly unacceptable that | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
those people will have to be shipped off to Barrow, White Heaven or | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
Carlisle rather than being treated -- Whitehaven. Rather than being | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
treated much closer. There is no guarantee that those in our distant | :45:29. | :45:30. | |
wards will have the capacity to accommodate them. Agents sometimes | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
have an immense journey to Manchester, for example. For many | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
less well-off residents, a round trip to alternative wards of to 100 | :45:40. | :45:44. | |
miles and many hours on the bus or train will put family and loved ones | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
beyond easy reach. It is the patients who would be harmed as they | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
are cut off from families and friends, miss out on all important | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
visits instead of reassurance of familiar faces and surroundings, | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
they would face a dark time alone and in an unknown place. Happy to | :46:02. | :46:09. | |
give way. Would he be aware of any issues for veterans' organisations? | :46:10. | :46:18. | |
They are very clearly... Ten o'clock motion. Will he be aware of any need | :46:19. | :46:29. | |
to address that issue? In my constituency, there are lots of | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
veterans that need help and I'm sure it's the same for him. The | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
honourable gentleman draws attention to an extremely important matter. It | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
seems to me that we are so happy to see the loyal service of brave women | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
and men who put their lives on the line for us return from duty and are | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
so often dropped and we see incidences of mental health concerns | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
for them and their family in the years after they return and we need | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
to provide the support that we should and that can sometimes be | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
provided by a community but sometimes it needs to be provided in | :47:13. | :47:20. | |
a physical setting as well. A recent government report showed that the | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
closure of this particular ward in South Lakeland would leave our part | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
of the world with the worst access to mental health services in the | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
entire United Kingdom because out of the 6000 open ward stays, just in | :47:43. | :47:50. | |
England, over the last year, only 263, 4%, receive care 30 miles or | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
more away from the place that they lived. The closure of the board | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
would leave vast numbers of residents, including all of Kent and | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
many other rural areas further than this from the services and the | :48:06. | :48:11. | |
closest alternative is in Barrow 35 miles away. The most likely | :48:12. | :48:26. | |
alternatives are even further still. The provision of replacement, | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
community support which has been offered to compensate for the | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
closure of the ward, would be quite inadequate. Community support would | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
of course be welcomed but that must be in addition to the 12 bed unit. | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
Increasingly, the majority of patients in the unit are under | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
section and one cannot section people in the community. When people | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
are sectioned, there is an immense impact on our local police force. | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
Closure of the unit would need that our local police force who are | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
already heavily stretched, under resourced and under pressure would | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
have to take patients vast distances across Cumbria to far-off mental | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
health units, taking them off the beaten is threatening the safety and | :49:14. | :49:17. | |
security of our rural communities. The last time I spent a night out on | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
the beat with our local police force I was stunned by how much of their | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
time was spent dealing with various kinds of mental health issues. It | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
was pretty much all they did on that occasion. Police officers locally | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
tell me that up to half their workload can involve dealing with | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
people living with mental conditions and their dedication and compassion | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
in being the first line of support for incredibly vulnerable and | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
distress people and their families is overwhelming. I am proud of them | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
per hour police are already working beyond their physical capacity. The | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
closure of the ward would just add to that pressure and it is | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
unacceptable. Local people recognise the damage closure of the ward will | :49:59. | :50:05. | |
have an patient welfare and are once again uniting to make their concerns | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
heard as we stand together to fight the British stop to the proposed | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
closure. There has been an overwhelming response of local | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
people to the campaign and as of today, our petition has reached 5500 | :50:18. | :50:22. | |
signatures. Last week, we were encouraged in the face of such | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
massive public opposition, we were able to secure a much welcomed a | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
temporary victory. The trust announced a final decision is to be | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
postponed while they look at whether the board can be upgraded and | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
improved to meet CTC standards, meaning the board stay open and | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
continuing to admit patients over the summer. The vulnerable patients | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
I met over the weekend are continuing to get treatment close to | :50:49. | :50:52. | |
home and if we had not achieved this victory, they would have already | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
been carted off to Barrow or Carlisle, far from home and loved | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
ones. News that new admissions will continue to be made is also welcome. | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
I welcome to the trust for listening to our concerns and thinking again | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
and I would like to personally thank every single one of the thousands of | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
local people involved in our campaign. We forced the trust hold | :51:13. | :51:18. | |
back on closure and we are especially grateful to volunteers | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
who have sown such strong support for the campaign but this is only a | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
temporary reprieve. Our work is far from complete. My message is that | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
this is the moment to step up our campaign, energised and encouraged | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
by this success, spurred on by victories and campaigns for a | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
hospital and my message to patients and their families is that we will | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
stand with you and we will not give up because we must not give up. It | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
was very clear from my discussions with the trust of the last few days | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
that their default position is still to close its ward. I have one very | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
specific request of the government this evening, for the Minister | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
instruct the Cumbria partnership trust not to close this vital board? | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
Wabi trust looks a upgrade options alternatives, I asked him to make it | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
very clear that the closure is of the table. I have spoken to many | :52:17. | :52:28. | |
local residents about this but the conversation I had with one lady has | :52:29. | :52:30. | |
particularly struck me hard. She is regularly treated for her mental | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
health and she was distressed by the thought of having to travel miles | :52:34. | :52:35. | |
from home to receive care if the ward were to close. Her condition | :52:36. | :52:38. | |
has been visibly exacerbated by the tangible threat from this proposal | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
so a decision by the Minister to instruct the trust not go ahead with | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
closure could directly alleviate this lady's worry and anxiety and | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
anxiety and many more like her. The long-term effects of closing the | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
unit will be far greater than the short-term savings. If the | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
government is serious about mental health, they must put words into | :53:00. | :53:00. | |
action and prove it by stepping in and | :53:01. | :53:14. | |
preventing closure of this vital ward which will be a serious | :53:15. | :53:16. | |
backward step for mental health care in South Lakeland. The Minister has | :53:17. | :53:18. | |
the opportunity to prevent that closure. I ask him now to take the | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
opportunity and save the ward. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, and I | :53:24. | :53:31. | |
rise to acknowledge that there is no pressure here from the right | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
honourable member. Can I thank my friend on securing this debate and | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
indeed for his vigilance in phrasing such an important subject which | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
matters a great deal to his constituents? I would like to go on | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
record right away my appreciation for the work done by the NHS in | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
Cumbria and to thank the staff for their hard work and commitment | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
patients. Can I also acknowledge what my right honourable friend said | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
in relation to police as those of us and the Chamber who know about these | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
matters no, the police do a great deal of work? The crisis care, | :54:06. | :54:13. | |
piloted by the right honourable friend, has made a considerable | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
contribution to the way in which we look after those with mental health | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
issues at times of crisis in which the police had been intimately | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
involved and I fully accept what he says about the amount of work which | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
they are involved in in South Lakeland in this respect. I am very | :54:29. | :54:37. | |
fond of South Lakeland. I remember the area extremely well. It's a | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
beautiful area and its constituents are entitled to a good service from | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
an MP and also the best quality services. Let me turn immediately to | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
be subject of the debate. The trust announced in May its decision to | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
close Kent made unit following information from Singh QC which | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
highlighted the environmental constraints on the unit. It is an | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
urgent mix text unit with no access to outdoor space. His concerns and | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
comments have been widely reported. As the right honourable member | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
knows, and despite what he said, this is a matter for the local NHS. | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
Neither I nor any other Minister have a role in what decisions are | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
taken and the honourable lady who speaks so forth that is forcibly | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
knows that also very well. However, I understand it is he rightly says | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
that the NHS is the unit will not close as announced and decisions | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
will depend on further work. It is therefore worth setting out what the | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
backgrounders and indicate the interest I happen making sure that | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
the best possible services are provided while recognising that the | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
ministers and NHS are not quite as they were. Mental health services | :55:52. | :55:58. | |
for Cumbria are commissioned by NHS Cumbria clinical commissioning | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
group. The Cumbrian foundation trust is the provider the mental health | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
services in Cumbria. It is been working on a new mental health | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
strategy sometime. It's fair to say that one of the problems of the NHS | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
in common with other public services that it faces in Cumbria is | :56:14. | :56:21. | |
geography. It is a big region in terms of area and is difficult to | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
travel between the smaller towns because the roads are often slow. | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
This means that difficult decisions about where and how to provide | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
services have to be made by the NHS. Each local community cannot have | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
everything available. While cost is a real factor, the main problem is | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
maintaining quality. It's not about saving pennies but making sure that | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
the quality of services high. Like everyone else, NHS clinicians learn | :56:50. | :56:51. | |
and improve the experience. Skills not being used decline. | :56:52. | :57:08. | |
Facilities seeing only a few patients lack the patients needed to | :57:09. | :57:10. | |
ensure services remain high quality. The cost of employing staff is the | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
main factor driving the cost of services, providing services from a | :57:14. | :57:15. | |
greater number of locations means more services. The NHS finds larger | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
units do better in terms of patient outcomes but the question then is | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
where those larger units should be located. Inevitably, decisions taken | :57:23. | :57:29. | |
by the NHS will disappoint those areas chosen. NHS services in | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
Cumbria overall are facing a range of challenges and in many cases the | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
reasons are the same. The northern part of the area is part of a | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
success regime aimed at improving or patient services and the issues are | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
well known. It's against this background that the NHS is | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
considering what happens and what is best for the right honourable | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
gentleman's constituents. Cumbria partnership announced on the 17th of | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
May that the unit would close from the end of June 20 16. At the same | :58:05. | :58:11. | |
time, it was announced the places safety would close at the end of | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
May. The trust said the decision was due to quality and safety concerns | :58:17. | :58:23. | |
raised by CQC. They inspected the unit in November 2015 and the report | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
was published in March. CQC says the decision to close the ward and the | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
health placed place of safety is however not a necessary outcome of | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
these findings of the CQC inspection which the right honourable gentleman | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
referred to. In short, were identified problems, the report did | :58:45. | :58:46. | |
not recommend the closure of the unit. The report clearly highlighted | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
concerns about the ward environment which it said placed service users | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
at risk and did not support good care and treatment. Something needs | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
to be done about those concerns. The unit which treats men and women does | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
not meet minimum standards on single sex accommodation and has poor | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
access to outside space. As I understand it, one issue is that | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
privacy for bathing and sleeping cannot be guaranteed in the mixed | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
ward. This poses an obvious risk to patients. The 25th of May, the trust | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
gave reassurance that the closure would be temporary and the | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
timescales for the closure would be reviewed. I now understand that | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
following discussions with the CQC and commissioners, any decisions on | :59:34. | :59:40. | |
will now be delayed to allow further exploration of what improvements can | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
be made. More needs to be done and I will say a bit about that later. It | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
says here that the trust accepts it does not get its message is right on | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
the closure and the House can probably agree very strongly with | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
that. Many honourable members will be aware of similar experiences in | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
other areas. The NHS needs to think carefully about how it communicates | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
with patients and the public, particularly when the news is not | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
good. Fax me to be clearly set out in is important not to brush the | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
announcements are surely. The circumstances reminded me of the | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
hospital and York last year in the constituency of the honourable lady. | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
There are differences in the CQC recommended closure on patient | :00:22. | :00:25. | |
safety grounds which is not the case here. But the report repair juiced a | :00:26. | :00:32. | |
number of observations about how difficult processes like this need | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
to be handled by the NHS and I have discussed this matter with the | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
honourable lady and would be happy to do so with the honourable | :00:41. | :00:47. | |
gentleman. These are difficult decisions to get right. Safety | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
considerations really matter. Identifying things that need to be | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
put right have to be put right that the question then becomes how to do | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
it at what timescale and what the various options are. But handling | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
these difficult decisions and the way in which it has not been well | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
handled reminds us of how important it is to get the decisions right. So | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
that report in relation to own the decisions of communicating those | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
decisions has been made public and I have placed a copy of that report in | :01:21. | :01:21. | |
the library. We have moved in the space of a few | :01:22. | :01:31. | |
weeks in respect of Kentmere ward to the unit remaining open while more | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
work is completed. The safety of patients has to be primary concern | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
and we would be failing patients if the NHS continued to tolerate the | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
risk to the quality and safety of care the environment at Kentmere | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
places on local services, something needs to be done and it is up to the | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
local NHS to decide what that is. But I do not think it will do it on | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
its own, which is where the right honourable gentleman and coming. The | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
CCG recognises that mental health services in country need to improve | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
and has already involved service users, families and carers on this | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
project. Much of the work so far has shown that patients want better | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
services closer to home in the local community. Later this year, NHS | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
Cumbria CCG will be consulting about the future configurations of adult | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
inpatient mental health beds across Cumbria. That will ensure they have | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
the right beds in the right place, a sustainable service which the local | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
NHS can staff for the future. Cumbria CCG has already said it will | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
not support any permanent service change at Kentmere without full | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
public consultation. In preparation for this, the CCG is looking at the | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
current configurations of adult inpatient mental health beds, | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
benchmarking how they are managing mental health needs across Cumbria | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
with other mental health providers and advising on errors were the NHS | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
needs to develop services to meet future needs. -- areas. The CCG also | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
needs to make sure it has the right kind of beds in place. Facilities | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
for children and good book older adults site created -- psychiatric | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
intensive care beds. I am very grateful. Just to point out, there | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
is not a single tear for adolescent or child mental health bed in the | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
whole of the country of Cumbria. Of those 12 beds at Kentmere, they are | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
full and the majority are people under section. The opportunity for | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
there to be community options or the fact there is some kind of lack of | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
demand would not be the case. I take his point, I cannot be as Ofere with | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
the situation as he would be but I would say in general, I fully | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
understand the point. There is a tremendous move towards improving | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
community services, which is important and vital in its own right | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
but it cannot be a total substitute for inpatient acute beds. I | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
understand his point and that is my view and that of the department. | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
Getting the right balance is important but the one is not a cheap | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
substitute for the other. But it is an important component part. The | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
more that can be done in the community to keep people away from | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
acute beds to make sure they do not need that, that is particularly | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
important. But I entirely take his point. NHS Cumbria is working with | :04:30. | :04:39. | |
its providers, namely the foundation trust, commission service users and | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
carers to help develop the model of care needed for the future, to | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
deliver its vision of improved mental health care and sustainable | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
services. I'm told the consultation will be carried out in line with | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
best practice and latest Government guidance. There will be sessions for | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
stakeholders and the public to share their views, ideas and concerns and | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
having spoken to Health Service juice this afternoon in preparation | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
for this debate, I do know how seriously they take the point of | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
consultation -- Health Service chiefs. And how they are open to the | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
consultation. So I would urge the right honourable member and his | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
constituents to fully involve themselves in that consultation, | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
which will shape whatever happens to Kentmere in the long term. Much as I | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
must resist his temptation that I should decide configurations of | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
services, I cannot, it would be outside my authority. So I say to | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
all colleagues in the House, good night and good luck. The question is | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of the opinion say, | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
"Aye," to the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. Order, | :05:50. | :05:50. | |
order. We support wholeheartedly the | :05:51. | :06:52. | |
implementation of the improved rights for carers, that is by the | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
care act of 2014. Providing funding to local authorities. We are | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
committed to continue to improve support for carers through the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
publication of a new national strategy by the end of 2016. I thank | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
the Minister for his response. Research shows that the older the | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
carer, the more hours of care they provide and that surely cannot be | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
right. Many carers over 80 are providing as much as 50 hours of | :07:31. | :07:31. |