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this exceptionally difficult and trying time. Point of order. Mr Ian

:00:00.:00:09.

Blackford. I am delighted as I rise to make a point of order that the

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Immigration Minister is in his seat. I would like to refer to an urgent

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question and I would say in good faith when the Minister of

:00:21.:00:25.

immigration responded, that he indicated that a family came to the

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UK after the post works these had been removed. I wanted to make the

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point and ask him to clarify his remarks because the family were

:00:40.:00:44.

granted a visa to come to the UK on the 20th of December 2010, so before

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the post study work these had started. I have always argued that

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this family should be given the right to work here while they fulfil

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the demands of the Visa. I have sought to display my usual

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generosity of spirit to an exceptionally dedicated and

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assiduous constituency member, which the honourable gentleman undoubtedly

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is, however he will take it in the right spirit if I say that was not a

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point of order. It was patented not addressed in any meaningful sense to

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and could not be intended for the chair. It was a request to the

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Minister on the Treasury bench. Accordingly, it is best

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communicated, directly to the Minister in writing or through a

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meeting rather than across the floor of the House. On this one occasion

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and this one occasion only, and I realise the seriousness of the

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matter, I will say that if the Minister wants very briefly to

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respond, even only to indicate a willingness to engage, so be it. The

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honourable gentleman should give me notice of attention to raise such an

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order. Mr Speaker I am content to write to

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the honourable gentleman on the point he has raised so I am able to

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consider it properly. Thank you, I hope the Orrell will gentleman is

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satisfied for now. If there are no other points for ordered the clerk

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will proceed. The crime bill to be further considered. Thank you, we

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continue with clause 48 with which it will be convenient to consider

:02:55.:02:58.

the other new clauses, new schedules and amendments listed on the paper.

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To move clause 408I called the Minister of State, Minister Mike

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Penning. You are generous and not reading out all the new clauses and

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amendments because we may have been the some considerable time. Can I

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start my opening comments by saying genuinely how this will has

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progressed with the respect of both sides of the House in a genuine way.

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There are, if I can briefly make some opening comments and then I

:03:35.:03:38.

will naturally despond towards the end of this time slot, Mr Speaker,

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to comments from colleagues around the House. Cause there are some

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amendments in this group I thought it was only right and proper I

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address some of those. I address some of the shadow Secretary Of

:03:54.:03:57.

State elements as well and we have had numerous meetings and will try

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to work our way through this. Let's see if we can carry that forward as

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best we can. The intention is to have a robust and independent

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inspection regime for the Fire and Rescue Service in England. New

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clause 48 and new schedule one will support the objective of

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strengthening the framework currently provided by the Fire And

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Rescue Services act of 2004. This provides for an inspector which will

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be required and appeared to prepare a programme of inspection for the

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Fire And Rescue Services. The Secretary Of State will be able to

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ask for outside the public programme if necessary. They will be required

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to produce reports on the inspections and the chief will make

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an annual report to this House, to Parliament, something that does not

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take place now. He will carry out joint inspection works with the

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inspector of Constabulary and this is important where Police And Crime

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Commissioners and Mitt Romney 's take on the fire and rescue

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responsibilities. Finally this will make sure they have access to the

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information they need to undertake rigorous inspection of Fire and

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rescue authorities and the persons employed by them. That means no door

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will be locked and all information will be available to the Inspector.

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While we believe the vast majority of inspections to be undertaken with

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consent we need to be alert to the fact there might be additional

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powers if needed which means literally F and Inspector does not

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get the access they feel the deserve and need to provide a report they

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have the powers to pass for a quote. They will be more transparent, more

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accountable... I give way. As a former holder of this part of his

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post I entirely welcome and support these amendments. The Inspector and

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the authority is a good idea but may I raise one technical issue? It is

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provision for delegation at the moment to another public body, many

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of us think it would be much better if the schedule was so phrased as to

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permit the use of external contractors to carry out certain

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elements of the inspection on behalf of inspectors we are the those

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outside expertise which may not be readily available in a public body

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which at the moment the wording both in the main cause and in the

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schedule does not appear to allow delegation to an external contractor

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who may well have expertise in audit to make it robust and independent,

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could you reflect on that? Can he exclude from his intervention

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anything he thought that many time or any GP may be material and I have

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a sense that when he practised law on a regular basis he operated in a

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similar vein. Minister. I understand where he is coming from however, at

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the moment we do not feel there are a need for external specialists in

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that sort of way. If we find out later on the is the Inspector could

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come to the Home Secretary and ask for those specific needs. There is

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enough in the Fire Service to make sure this regime works, it is

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completely different to the one that explains that the moment. Thank you

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for giving way. Another former Fire Minister. There was a tradition we

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were West Ham United reporters but sadly that was broken by the

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honourable gentleman! And he explain having got away to the National

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Audit Office and know nothing now we are going back to the Fire Services

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Inspectorate, as he taken into account UCAS, the national

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application servers? Along the lines of what he said that giving external

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advice to the Inspectorate and will be new Chief Inspector DD National

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advisor for fire which was the position that was created? Can he

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explain a little of the background? I am conscious I am in the hands of

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experts who were ministers before I was. I was surprised when I came

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into the road to see how the inspections to lease. It was not as

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I envisaged when he brought it through. There was a general field

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that they had to address the costs and how it was done but frankly and

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to be perfectly honest, it has not worked. It cannot have the situation

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we have at the moment we are one Fire and rescue force inspects

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another and tells them what they can and cannot expect. This is separate

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which is why we have done it alongside the Inspectorate of

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Constabulary and the new inspector will tell us exactly what expertise

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is required especially as ex-firefighters like the payroll of

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us are what they need to be looking at. The area around the financial

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side of how it is working is an area of expertise but I accept some areas

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will need to have expertise from other areas. I promise not to

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trouble him any more but can he clarify for me, I agree with his

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response to the member opposite that can he clarify is he saying if

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evidence is resented ministers will not rule out making an appropriate

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arrangement whereby commissioning can take these were the chief

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inspector things it is appropriate to do so in relation to any

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inspection that won't require us to come back and make any arrangements

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in this House because that would defeat the object as I am trying to

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understand. Categorically we do not want to put a handcuff on the

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Inspector. If the Inspector needs additional expertise and to bring

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that in whether from Newcastle brothers then that is for them to

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bring to the ministers responsible. They would not be a requirement to

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come to this House. I think this is a really positive move for the Fire

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Service which has been welcomed by the Chiefs and in the meetings I

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have had with envy are very supportive. I am not sure every

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single one is because obviously the ones who are not might not be

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banging so hard on my door as the one to wear. I will come back later

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if we have time. Can I briefly touch on DNA and fingerprint retention?

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This is an important and sensitive area. The new clauses 49 and 50

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would help prevent and detect crime with the any and fingerprint

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retained on databases outside of England and Wales in the same way as

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the material could be used if they had the crime taking place inside

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England and Wales. This is to protect the public and will only be

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in place for offences which are specific which would have been an

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offence inside England and Wales, whether they have taken place

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outside England and Wales. It is something which has been requested

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and the amendments have been made to clauses 49 and 50 will enhance the

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effectiveness of DNA and fingerprint databases and help our police keep

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us safe which is something I am sure we want to do to regularly with the

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heightened threat we have. New clauses 51, 52 and new clause to the

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play strength arrest provided by the criminal Justice and order act and

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appears to have support from around the House on that. Can I briefly

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touch because I specifically want to listen to the Shadow Home Secretary

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is my comments in his work, the amendments we have discussed with

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the leasing Minister and the Home Secretary has discussed as well, in

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the main B1 to hear... It may assist the House if I say a few words. We

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welcome a constructive approach from the opposition and particularly from

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the Hillsborough families in this case and the campaign groups. We

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would not be talking here about these issues now without the bravery

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of the health brat families and the Hillsborough campaign. It would not

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have happened and I would not be standing here so I particularly want

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to praise them at this stage. The work carries on, it will more stop

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whatever happens today. The Shadow Home Secretary identified a

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number... Of course. I would like to thank the Minister for giving way.

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He has just mentioned the health brat families some of whom are here

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today to hear the Minister's words. Will he give categoric assurances to

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them that this sort of thing could never happen again given the new

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clause, 63? Go Minister could stand that this dispatch box and give

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categoric assurances in this way but what we have done is moved

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enormously forward with the Home Secretary's perseverance along with

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the shadow Secretary Of State. We are in any position here and are

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trying as hard as we possibly can to make sure these terrible situations

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never happen again without consequential effects in other parts

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so I cannot categorically do what he is asking but he will understand

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we'd I am coming from other work will disappoint him. I will be as

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helpful as I possibly can. We recognise the strength of feeling on

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these issues and ensure police officers who commit the most serious

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acts of wrongdoing can be held to account and that actions, no matter

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when they come to light. We are not talking about criminal acts. If it

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is a criminal action it can be born against individuals but we are

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looking at actions against a police officer, disciplinary actions. On

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that basis and I am looking very carefully at what the shadow

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secretary has it down in his amendments and the discussions I

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have had with the Shadow police Minister. He will bring forward in

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the House of lords that we will be able to extend the 12 month time

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limit reposed in the bill in exceptional circumstances to

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unlimited. That is in understanding the have not completely opened up to

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every offence. We will work within regulations with the Shadow Home

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Secretary and his team and I hope the Hillsborough families and Bishop

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James to see how these regulations can be drafted so that we can make

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sure that it does what it says on the tin. We will keep the 12 month

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rule but in exceptional circumstances, based on

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recommendations, we will be able to look at historical challenges. Not

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criminal, that is a different side, but in what actions against a former

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police officer. A 12 month limit will remain but we will work on the

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regulations. That is a significant move on our behalf. This will apply

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to police officers serving with the police force at the point of these

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provisions coming into force. We do not believe it should be applied

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retrospectively but I believe this is a significant move so families

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going forward will have the sort of addiction be would want. In relation

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to new clause 66, in relation to the police and the media, and would like

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to assure the House that the consultation that is going on at the

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moment which we discussed with the shadow team and the College of

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leasing is actively looking at guidance in this particular area. I

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will not predict what they can account for but I wouldn't be

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looking at it. We will wait for the colleagues to come forward. New

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clauses 63 and 65 about the support to fans which I now is the really

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important area and something we are looking at. The Home Secretary has

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asked Bishop James to look into the report not just around this

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financial area but the whole aspect of how we could improve and better

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so the families don't go through that sort of situation ever again.

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They will wait for Bishop James's report. What ever happens in the

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House afternoon, the matter will not stop there. We will still work with

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Bishop James and wait for the report. In relation to new clause

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64, the Government has made it clear on many occasions that we've will

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wait for the criminal proceedings that are still ongoing and then the

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Home Secretary will come forward. There are lots of other amendments

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within that we can discuss but I wanted to try to set out the

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Government's position. Inspection of fire and rescue

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authorities. The question is that the Government new clause 48 B read

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a second time. I would like to begin by agreeing with the Minister that

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some good progress has been made in the course of our deliberations on

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this bill. Improvements that we will discuss later in terms of tackling

:18:08.:18:13.

child sexual exploitation, improvements to the police bail

:18:14.:18:17.

regime, particularly as it applies to suspects suspected of being

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involved in counterterrorism activity and progress on police

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misconduct, which I will come onto. I would argue that this bill

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presents an opportunity to do much more to improve police

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accountability and it is an opportunity that we need to grab.

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Today I want to present a package of amendments which respond to the

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historic verdict of the Hillsborough inquest that finally concluded,

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after 27 years, what the families had known from day one that the loss

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of their loved ones was not an accident, but they had been

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unlawfully killed but that fact had been covered up for all of those

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years. This package seeks to rebalance this country to make it

:19:09.:19:14.

fairer. Rebalance it away from the establishment and in the favour of

:19:15.:19:18.

ordinary families. A package that will stand as a permanent tribute to

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the dignity and determination of the Hillsborough families because

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knowing them, they would want nothing more than knowing that no

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other family should go through what they have gone through. There is a

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package of amendments here and let me take the House briefly through

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them. New clause 63 would give bereaved families equal legal

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funding for representation at inquests where the police are

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involved. It seeks to establish that crucible principle that there should

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be parity between the two sides and the reason why that is important is

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because that says clearly that the public interest lies in finding the

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truth and that is how public resources should be directed. Public

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resources should not be directed to create an unbalanced inquest. I am

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happy to confirm that the Liberal Democrats will support this

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amendment and does he agree with me that had this been in place at the

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time of the first inquest, then the truth might have emerged at that

:20:31.:20:33.

stage rather than the families having to go through such a dire

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long way to get to the truth? I am grateful to the honourable gentleman

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for his support tonight. I think he is absolutely right and for calm on

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to explain precisely how this would have helped even the playing field

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and give the families the chance to get truth at the first time of

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asking. The original inquest catastrophically failed on that

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account and that needs to be very clearly understood as we considered

:21:15.:21:20.

this amendment tonight. Amendment 126 seeks to close the loophole of

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retirements being used as a route to evade misconduct proceedings by

:21:28.:21:34.

police officers. New clause 64 seeks to hold the Government to its

:21:35.:21:39.

promise to the victim 's press intrusion, to hold a second stage

:21:40.:21:44.

enquiry looking at the culture of relations between police and the

:21:45.:21:49.

press. New clause 66 seeks to legislate for a code of practice

:21:50.:21:55.

with regard to the media relations policy of each individual police

:21:56.:22:01.

force and seeks to spell out that unattributable briefings by police

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forces as was so damaging in the case of Hillsborough is not

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permitted unless it is in the most exceptional circumstances.

:22:13.:22:17.

Amendments 127 seeks to strengthen the IPC C. New clause 67 which will

:22:18.:22:22.

be considered later seeks to strengthen the offence of misconduct

:22:23.:22:27.

in public office. Let me go through those amendments and I will start

:22:28.:22:37.

with the area where there is greatest consensus and that is on

:22:38.:22:43.

police misconduct. I listened carefully to what the Minister had

:22:44.:22:48.

to say and I am grateful for the movement that he indicated to my

:22:49.:22:52.

honourable friend in committee that there should not just be an

:22:53.:22:56.

arbitrator for month period after retirement because as we know,

:22:57.:23:01.

police wrongdoing may come to light much later than that. We are glad

:23:02.:23:06.

that the Government has indicated that it is prepared to move on this

:23:07.:23:11.

matter in the Other Place and bring an amendment to that effect. While I

:23:12.:23:17.

will not push my amendment tonight I would still like to press the

:23:18.:23:21.

Minister further because he is saying that that should be applied

:23:22.:23:24.

in the most exceptional circumstances, but that seems to me

:23:25.:23:30.

to rule out potentially many people who might be guilty of gross

:23:31.:23:36.

misconduct but who then would not apply under his exceptional test. I

:23:37.:23:40.

think he needs to reassure the House on this particular point. That is

:23:41.:23:48.

why I offered to work closely with colleagues across the House on the

:23:49.:23:57.

regulations. We don't bring everybody in but clearly understand

:23:58.:23:59.

what exceptional is is very important. That in fact is a good

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offer and I thank the Minister for it. I think we can move forward on

:24:07.:24:10.

that basis. Hopefully we all know what we are trying to achieve here

:24:11.:24:16.

and that is is serious wrongdoing comes to light about as individual

:24:17.:24:25.

who is beyond 12 months retired it must be possible that proceedings

:24:26.:24:29.

can be initiated. The amendment we have got down to Knight says it

:24:30.:24:35.

should also be sanctions that will be applied to that individual and we

:24:36.:24:39.

will want to insist on that point as well. If we can therefore agreed to

:24:40.:24:44.

move forward on that basis, that for me seems to be like a considerable

:24:45.:24:48.

piece of progress that I never matters greatly to the Hillsborough

:24:49.:24:53.

families who felt very aggrieved as they were continuing their struggle,

:24:54.:24:57.

when they saw individuals retired on a full pension and who they felt

:24:58.:25:04.

were beyond reach and could not be held to account. Misconduct is

:25:05.:25:08.

misconduct whenever it occurred and people should be held to account for

:25:09.:25:18.

their action. For the Minister for coming partly to the position that

:25:19.:25:25.

we believe should be taken, can we clarify one point. What we are

:25:26.:25:32.

talking about is some serious, gross misconduct for police officers and

:25:33.:25:36.

because we have mentioned Hillsborough, fair many people who

:25:37.:25:40.

will spin that in regard to the conduct of officers, ordered Terri

:25:41.:25:42.

officers at the Hillsborough disaster. In regards to ordinary

:25:43.:25:52.

officers, there were no allegations against officers who performed

:25:53.:25:57.

locally. It was the senior officers who let people down and then use the

:25:58.:26:01.

opportunity to get away scot-free in regard to the copout of using ill

:26:02.:26:07.

health. If the honourable gentleman wishes to make a speech he can stand

:26:08.:26:12.

up when he wishes to indicate to do so but this is an intervention and

:26:13.:26:17.

they must be shorter than that. It was a long one but it was a good one

:26:18.:26:25.

and it was a very important point that my honourable friend was

:26:26.:26:31.

making. I don't think there is any attempt here to blame ordinary

:26:32.:26:36.

policemen and women and that is not the purpose of this amendment. It is

:26:37.:26:43.

important for me to say very clearly today to those police officers out

:26:44.:26:46.

there now keeping the streets safe that this is not an attack on them

:26:47.:26:52.

and the point about this package is, this is about not allowing those

:26:53.:26:56.

misdeeds in the past to take the present and to taint police officers

:26:57.:27:01.

working today. That is such a crucial important point because if

:27:02.:27:05.

you don't deal, if you don't deal properly with those allegations, you

:27:06.:27:11.

allow it to contaminate the present and corrode trust in today's police

:27:12.:27:17.

service and that is something that none of us in this House want. My

:27:18.:27:21.

honourable friend was right to make the point that he did and that

:27:22.:27:26.

cannot be stressed enough in bringing these amendments tonight.

:27:27.:27:35.

The point that his colleague was making it absolutely right. If we

:27:36.:27:40.

had not put the exceptional circumstances in, those sorts of

:27:41.:27:44.

people could have been possibly captured and that is not what we are

:27:45.:27:49.

looking at. What we are looking at is the people who should be brought

:27:50.:27:53.

to justice and that is exactly what we should do. That is right. This is

:27:54.:27:59.

about people who have been guilty of serious misconduct in the course of

:28:00.:28:05.

their holding of public office and it is crucial that they cannot use

:28:06.:28:11.

retirement as a means of evading accountability for that misconduct.

:28:12.:28:17.

This change that the Minister appears to be agreeing to tonight

:28:18.:28:25.

Ashley closes a very long-standing loophole and frustration for members

:28:26.:28:29.

of the public. It does expose the police to considerably more

:28:30.:28:34.

challenging regime but rightly so. Any profession needs to be held

:28:35.:28:39.

accountable to the highest standard, so he is right. We will work with

:28:40.:28:44.

him to get it right but I believe we can, but I stress again, this is

:28:45.:28:49.

about upholding the reputation of the vast majority of police officers

:28:50.:28:55.

who serve the public and serve it with distinction. If I may move onto

:28:56.:29:05.

police press relations. To be honest, I think this is the biggest

:29:06.:29:11.

area of unfinished... We haven't even started to make any changes

:29:12.:29:15.

with respect to putting right the wrongs of Hillsborough because as we

:29:16.:29:21.

know, that briefing of the press in those first days after the tragedy

:29:22.:29:28.

caused incalculable harm and damage, not just to the families who had

:29:29.:29:34.

lost loved ones but actually to the thousands of people like my

:29:35.:29:36.

honourable friend who had returned from the match in the state of

:29:37.:29:43.

trauma, only to read a couple of days later that the police were

:29:44.:29:50.

blaming them for the death of their friends. And their family. That is

:29:51.:29:59.

why feelings are so strong on this matter. Not just in Merseyside but

:30:00.:30:04.

across the country. It cannot be right that a police force is able to

:30:05.:30:13.

unattributable you to brief malicious information, unproven

:30:14.:30:16.

information to a newspaper. That simply cannot be right and it must

:30:17.:30:24.

be the case that we need a more, a stronger and more transparent regime

:30:25.:30:28.

for press relations so that fourth impressions cannot be put out there

:30:29.:30:35.

with the intention of setting a narrative about a particular

:30:36.:30:38.

incident, because families who are fighting for justice can often find

:30:39.:30:45.

that it is very difficult then to overturn the false version of

:30:46.:30:48.

events. That was certainly the case for the Hillsborough families. I

:30:49.:30:53.

totally agree with the points he is making but does he also agree with

:30:54.:30:59.

me that one of the problems with Hillsborough was not just the off

:31:00.:31:03.

record briefings but the on record briefings to get the narrative right

:31:04.:31:08.

from the beginning which was part of the problem? I agree on both levels.

:31:09.:31:16.

This was a cover-up that was perpetrated on the record, off the

:31:17.:31:19.

record, in the committee rooms of this House. It went to the very top,

:31:20.:31:28.

even to number ten Downing St. The head of press at the time briefed

:31:29.:31:34.

tank top mob that caused the disaster. This cover-up went to the

:31:35.:31:40.

highest level and what chance to ordinary families have when faced

:31:41.:31:45.

with the might of the establishment seeking to perpetrate a lie on that

:31:46.:31:53.

scale? It's a 27 year fight as we now know. This whole area is a major

:31:54.:31:58.

unfinished piece of business. It is why we have suggested new

:31:59.:32:15.

clause 66. He said he will work with us on new clause 66 and with the

:32:16.:32:20.

College of the leasing and with the end PCC to get this right and I do

:32:21.:32:25.

believe my honourable friend the lease Minister is having useful

:32:26.:32:30.

discussions with them. They have responded in this area and they have

:32:31.:32:36.

looked at the proper conduct the law of and we want to work with him to

:32:37.:32:44.

get this absolutely right. If you look at a number of injustices down

:32:45.:32:48.

the years there was an uncommon thread Europe where an unhealthy

:32:49.:32:53.

relationship between police and press cancel the seeds for a

:32:54.:32:55.

cover-up which becomes very difficult to overturn. Let me now

:32:56.:33:06.

turn to new clause 64 which invites the House to reinforce the wrongness

:33:07.:33:12.

that was made by the Prime Minister to the victims of press intrusion.

:33:13.:33:22.

Let me go back to what was said. In November 20 12th the PM said this,

:33:23.:33:29.

when I set out the inquiry, the leathers and inquiry, I also said

:33:30.:33:32.

they would eat a second part to investigate wrongdoing in the press

:33:33.:33:38.

and the lease. We remain committed to the inquiry as it was first

:33:39.:33:42.

established. It is right that it should go ahead and that is truly

:33:43.:33:47.

our intention. It was put to me that that wrongness was made face to face

:33:48.:33:54.

before some of the victims of hacking and press intrusion, people

:33:55.:33:57.

such as the McCanns and the family of Milly Dowler. It seems to us on

:33:58.:34:06.

this side of the House that the government has subtly shifted its

:34:07.:34:09.

position in the intervening years. As we just heard a moment ago from

:34:10.:34:14.

the Minister, it is not a question of when the inquiry will go ahead at

:34:15.:34:20.

if it will go ahead. The government are announcing that following the

:34:21.:34:24.

conclusion of the outstanding investigations of this matter we

:34:25.:34:28.

will then take a decision whether or not the second stage inquiry will go

:34:29.:34:35.

ahead. I give way to my right honourable friend the chair of the

:34:36.:34:39.

home affairs select committee. Thank you for giving way. The promise was

:34:40.:34:43.

not just made to the victims and their families but also to the

:34:44.:34:49.

chairs of the select committees in the room before the inquiry was

:34:50.:34:56.

announced and he has absolutely right that it is important we get

:34:57.:35:01.

Levenson, too. They be not with Levenson, with somebody else because

:35:02.:35:05.

Levenson has moved on to do other things. There is nothing wrong with

:35:06.:35:09.

the government beginning the process, choosing the chair of the

:35:10.:35:13.

committee, getting the Mechanic 's together, we don't really have to

:35:14.:35:17.

wait for the end of the criminal proceedings. I would wholeheartedly

:35:18.:35:22.

agree with my honourable friend, Madam Deputy Speaker, because there

:35:23.:35:27.

is a huge amount of unfinished business here. We know that these

:35:28.:35:35.

issues are present in so many of the injustices that we see with their

:35:36.:35:39.

has been inappropriate contact between police and press. We are

:35:40.:35:44.

awaiting the conclusion of the Daniel Morgan panel which might test

:35:45.:35:50.

illustrate some of these issues. It is true in other things as well. You

:35:51.:35:56.

brought back the shoes break 74 and how the media where influenced in

:35:57.:36:02.

that instance. There are many examples looking back in time of

:36:03.:36:06.

death and part one of the Levenson inquiry found unhealthy links

:36:07.:36:11.

between senior Met officers and newspapers. That led to the

:36:12.:36:14.

resignation of the Met the lease chief and indeed others. The issue

:36:15.:36:21.

cannot be left there. There have also been public officials and the

:36:22.:36:27.

lease officers convicted of offences cause of these matters. -- police

:36:28.:36:35.

officers. He had to answer explicitly today. It cannot be a

:36:36.:36:40.

case now of wriggling out of a commitment. It is not a commitment

:36:41.:36:44.

you can wriggle out to given everything they have been through. A

:36:45.:36:48.

promise should be a promise to people who have suffered the way

:36:49.:36:53.

victims of press intrusion have suffered. I know the Hillsborough

:36:54.:36:58.

families feel exactly the same. They were victims of the biggest example

:36:59.:37:03.

of police briefing of newspapers and it wasn't just one newspaper. It

:37:04.:37:08.

will think it was just one newspaper that reported the lives but it was

:37:09.:37:14.

many. The lies were given to whites newsagency in Sheffield and those

:37:15.:37:17.

lies went around the world. This week I had the e-mail from someone

:37:18.:37:24.

in the United States that said when they saw a recent BBC Two

:37:25.:37:27.

Hillsborough documentary the red astonished to find the truth when

:37:28.:37:32.

they thought for 20 years it was an example of hooliganism. It is

:37:33.:37:38.

impossible to say the harm those lies caused. We need a better answer

:37:39.:37:44.

than the one we have got. If he were to stand up now that this bag box

:37:45.:37:48.

and say really to this House there will be a second stage inquiry into

:37:49.:37:53.

the culture of relations between the lease and dress I would be the first

:37:54.:37:58.

tonight to say we will not please amendment to a vote. -- police and

:37:59.:38:07.

press. I would say to campaigners for just as they are being slowly

:38:08.:38:11.

let down here and that is being slowly slid into the long grass and

:38:12.:38:14.

we have had anonymous briefings from people close to the culture

:38:15.:38:20.

secretary that it has been canned. We are not on their side of the

:38:21.:38:24.

House prepared to accept that I would say to the minister unless he

:38:25.:38:28.

can provide more directly issued and we will push this matter to a vote

:38:29.:38:34.

this evening or that we forced the Prime Minister to honour his own

:38:35.:38:38.

promise to the victims of breast intrusion and indeed hacking. On

:38:39.:38:45.

that specific point the Prime Minister said we should do it

:38:46.:38:51.

without further delay in March 13. The select committee be Secretary Of

:38:52.:38:57.

State said they were awaiting a further government statement.

:38:58.:39:02.

Wouldn't you think even though the use since the Prime Minister's

:39:03.:39:06.

promise is far too long for many people who have been victims of

:39:07.:39:12.

intrusion. I would say so. I can't see there is any doubt about this

:39:13.:39:16.

have on the clarity of the statements the Prime Minister has

:39:17.:39:20.

already given that I have read out. This was given not just to these

:39:21.:39:24.

victims but also to senior parliamentarians, how can this be a

:39:25.:39:30.

negotiate will commitment? I will give way again. I am grateful. The

:39:31.:39:37.

culture secretary was in the room as the chair of the culture select

:39:38.:39:41.

committee so he is very clear that a promise was made. Well, there you

:39:42.:39:48.

go. That probably says it all. I think he seems to be in a different

:39:49.:39:54.

mode these days but one wonders what deals have been done by the

:39:55.:39:58.

government if they are preparing to unpick this agreement and we will be

:39:59.:40:04.

watching very carefully. It is a fair point that there are ongoing

:40:05.:40:10.

investigations. I take that point there are still investigations which

:40:11.:40:13.

have a material impact on the issue we are investigating. It is not an

:40:14.:40:19.

issue of us say we want it and we wanted to start right now. There are

:40:20.:40:23.

matters to be concluded in the courts before the inquiry can

:40:24.:40:27.

proceed. What we are after is the removal of any doubt that it will

:40:28.:40:32.

proceed at the appropriate moment. That it will be honoured, that

:40:33.:40:36.

promised that the Prime Minister gave to those victims. That is what

:40:37.:40:40.

we are seeking to establish to night, but we are asking the House

:40:41.:40:46.

to lay down very clearly. I think it goes beyond party politics. Those

:40:47.:40:51.

families and victims have suffered enough and people on both sides of

:40:52.:40:55.

the House or it to them to make good on a promise that was given to them

:40:56.:40:58.

and that's why I look forward to members of both sides joining us in

:40:59.:41:04.

the lobby tonight. Thank you for giving way. These families have

:41:05.:41:09.

suffered enough. This House and this chamber has been united in that.

:41:10.:41:15.

With the Shadow Minister not agree with me that statements from the

:41:16.:41:20.

minister today, this second inquiry will go ahead to put an end to

:41:21.:41:24.

suffering from these families, they have suffered enough, let this be

:41:25.:41:29.

the end. My honourable friend would sit very well. This is it. This is

:41:30.:41:35.

what I have seen working with the Hillsborough families fighting for

:41:36.:41:39.

justice and others, too. It is not just the initial trauma that they

:41:40.:41:43.

suffer that affects them, it is how the system grinds them down

:41:44.:41:48.

afterwards, take them fight for everything, it doesn't give them an

:41:49.:41:52.

inch and slowly drains the life out of them. How cool is that? It is

:41:53.:41:58.

just wrong that the machine of government thinks it can operate in

:41:59.:42:03.

that way. I was speaking to a family today that I will go on to mention

:42:04.:42:08.

any minute, going to a meeting with 14 lawyers around the table and just

:42:09.:42:13.

a couple of family members. It is not right. Those of us who have been

:42:14.:42:17.

ministers have seen that style. It is time to change it. Don't make

:42:18.:42:23.

these families fight for everything. Get the skills in the favour away

:42:24.:42:29.

from the powerful, why not? I don't know what happened with other

:42:30.:42:34.

ministers, I have never sat in on these meetings but anyone who has a

:42:35.:42:39.

meeting with me as Minister now it is not the way I operate and never

:42:40.:42:46.

have. I have bought a lot of time for the Minister and he knows that

:42:47.:42:50.

however, if they are listening to this debate today, I see my

:42:51.:42:55.

honourable friend from Hull is not in but if the victims of

:42:56.:42:58.

contaminated blood was listening to this debate today I think the would

:42:59.:43:02.

immediately recognise what I am saying. Victims of organophosphate

:43:03.:43:09.

poisoning, sheep dip, they will understand what I am saying today.

:43:10.:43:16.

People waiting for the announcement on the battle of Orgreave

:43:17.:43:18.

investigation will understand what I am saying. There are people who have

:43:19.:43:26.

not an given justice by the system out there. It is just not right, it

:43:27.:43:30.

really is not right and that is why I keep say we must make Hillsborough

:43:31.:43:37.

a moment of change their wee tip the scales in favour of ordinary

:43:38.:43:39.

families and away from the establishment. I think the position

:43:40.:43:46.

of old site has been made perfectly clear, I would like to act as peace

:43:47.:43:52.

broker. Could there be an exception to act as Levenson. Could that not

:43:53.:44:01.

be given today? That would be good enough if we got a cast-iron

:44:02.:44:05.

commitment. We have reintroduced the doubt. There have been media

:44:06.:44:09.

briefings saying it will probably not go ahead now so they are the

:44:10.:44:14.

ones who have muddied the waters. If they were to clarify that tonight

:44:15.:44:18.

that would be good enough. If they were to say it will go ahead after

:44:19.:44:24.

the proper time has elapsed given the criminal proceedings that are

:44:25.:44:27.

still outstanding then fine, everyone would understand that. If

:44:28.:44:31.

they would give the commitment to night that they would be no need for

:44:32.:44:35.

a vote then fine we have done our job. If they cannot do that it is

:44:36.:44:40.

revealing in itself. If they cannot reaffirm that commitment to the

:44:41.:44:45.

people they have already given that commitment to that is revealing in

:44:46.:44:49.

itself and why we are right to bring evil in those circumstances so that

:44:50.:44:52.

those people are not being strung along in the hope that one day there

:44:53.:44:59.

will be a Levenson to. They are being held to account which is what

:45:00.:45:05.

we are doing tonight. They have the chance to do it and say they will

:45:06.:45:10.

honour what they said. If they don't members of decency and integrity on

:45:11.:45:14.

both sides of the House we want to stand with us and hold them to

:45:15.:45:18.

account for their own promise that they need. Finally, let me turn if I

:45:19.:45:30.

may to new clause... I have forgotten the number of it now! The

:45:31.:45:39.

clause on parity, what is the number of it, 63. That took a while! The

:45:40.:45:46.

point I would want to say introducing this clause which seeks

:45:47.:45:50.

to establish the principle of parity of legal funding for bereaved

:45:51.:45:53.

families at inquests involving the lease. The one thing I want to say

:45:54.:45:58.

at the beginning is it is very important people do not see

:45:59.:46:01.

Hillsborough as a one of that belongs to a forgotten either. To be

:46:02.:46:08.

honest many bereaved families still face a very similar experience to

:46:09.:46:13.

date when they go to an inquest. He often find they are pitched into an

:46:14.:46:17.

adversarial and aggressive courtroom still wrought with grief, unable to

:46:18.:46:23.

match the spending of the lease or public sector on their own legal

:46:24.:46:28.

representation and they find their lives get picked apart and they get

:46:29.:46:32.

made to look like they are indeed the perpetrators, not the victims.

:46:33.:46:36.

This is a very common experience and many of the people who suffer that

:46:37.:46:41.

experience do not have the backing, the huge support that the

:46:42.:46:42.

Hillsborough families have. That is like this principle is so

:46:43.:47:00.

tremendously important. His remarks will be heard by ritual guns, the

:47:01.:47:07.

daughter of Fillmore Mills, who was killed when he was in hospital while

:47:08.:47:13.

he was being restrained by the police, but I've had another

:47:14.:47:17.

constituent who has raised an issue in relation to his mother who was a

:47:18.:47:22.

victim of her children being abducted by their father, who spent

:47:23.:47:29.

nearly two decades without being able to contact her children. He is

:47:30.:47:33.

currently litigating against the police and feels a similar kind of

:47:34.:47:38.

bereavement while he has been kept away from his brothers and sisters

:47:39.:47:44.

while his mother has been kept from her children, and he hoped that this

:47:45.:47:50.

kind of approach could enable people like him who are taking cases

:47:51.:47:55.

against the police to be able to get access to some kind of resource.

:47:56.:48:01.

With that be possible? That is exactly the point that lies behind

:48:02.:48:07.

this amendment today, because she has just made my point that we will

:48:08.:48:13.

all have in our own experiences these examples where we know

:48:14.:48:17.

families that have been at inquests and it has been a highly

:48:18.:48:21.

unsatisfactory experience, where they did not get legal support. The

:48:22.:48:32.

public spectre spend taxpayer's money like water, hiring the best

:48:33.:48:37.

QCs and defend their reputations and their backs and the ordinary

:48:38.:48:41.

families are scrabbling around, remortgaging the House, doing

:48:42.:48:46.

whatever they can do to put up some kind of fight against that. How

:48:47.:48:51.

wrong is that? Public money should pay to establish the truth and that

:48:52.:48:56.

shows there should be parity between the two sides in that process. There

:48:57.:49:01.

should not be the case where you have the public sector packing the

:49:02.:49:04.

court room with these highly paid qui QCs and that is an important

:49:05.:49:13.

principle to establish and if there was to be one lasting legacy to

:49:14.:49:19.

Hillsborough, this should be it. I was tempted to make this point

:49:20.:49:24.

before by the right honourable gentleman for North Norfolk. If the

:49:25.:49:28.

Hillsborough families had been represented by Michael Mansfield,

:49:29.:49:36.

there is no chance that that cruel and inhumane 315 cut-off would have

:49:37.:49:44.

been allowed to stand. Have we ever had a situation where bereaved

:49:45.:49:47.

families are told you cannot have information about what happened to

:49:48.:49:52.

your loved ones in their dying minutes? Have we ever had a

:49:53.:49:57.

situation before after 27 years they were finally told who gave them the

:49:58.:50:03.

kiss of life, who carried them over the pitch? What an affront to

:50:04.:50:08.

justice is that but it was allowed to stand because they could not have

:50:09.:50:14.

somebody to challenge it. Margaret Aspinall, chair of the Hillsborough

:50:15.:50:19.

Family Support Group, came to Parliament to deliver a personal

:50:20.:50:22.

reflection of what it was like back in those days all those years ago

:50:23.:50:27.

and I am grateful to all members who attended and I'm sure they will

:50:28.:50:32.

agree it was an intensely moving occasion. Margaret described the

:50:33.:50:36.

indescribable pain when she was sent to check of just over ?1000 which

:50:37.:50:46.

was compensation for her son James. She had to put that with the legal

:50:47.:50:52.

fund. It wasn't enough because she had the cost of travelling to the

:50:53.:50:57.

inquest, to Sheffield every day. She was absolutely living on the bread

:50:58.:51:01.

line because she was having to borrow money from her family, her

:51:02.:51:07.

mother to make it all work. How can that be right for families in these

:51:08.:51:12.

circumstances when they have not done anything wrong, to find

:51:13.:51:16.

themselves in that situation? It cannot be right that they are

:51:17.:51:20.

scratching and saving and doing all those things when taxpayers's money

:51:21.:51:27.

is being paid to do them down the other side. He is right to highlight

:51:28.:51:31.

the inequality of arms between families and the state and he will

:51:32.:51:39.

note that he has campaigned tirelessly on this issue. An inquest

:51:40.:51:47.

may not happen for five or six years, in which time all sorts of

:51:48.:51:51.

untruths can flourish but it can only be recorded in the statistics

:51:52.:51:55.

as having taken a year. That is right. It is that delay that is

:51:56.:52:02.

often used to grind people down further. It does not work. I think

:52:03.:52:09.

we as a parliament have to decide we prepared to let people carry on

:52:10.:52:14.

going through this entirely unsatisfactory process? I don't we

:52:15.:52:19.

should. You can see in the experience of people today the

:52:20.:52:25.

parallels with the experience of the Hillsborough families. Let's give a

:52:26.:52:32.

recent example. There is a young boy who died in 2014 in the floods, in

:52:33.:52:49.

his home in Surrey. Where hydrogen cyanide was brought into the House

:52:50.:52:56.

from a former landfill site that was not properly sealed. The inquest

:52:57.:53:01.

starts today and it is a very high profile case. But the family has

:53:02.:53:05.

been turned down three times now for legal aid. This is an ordinary

:53:06.:53:09.

family that were going about their business and all of a sudden, their

:53:10.:53:16.

son is dead and the father is in a wheelchair. This inquest starts

:53:17.:53:21.

today and the only reason they have got quality legal representation is

:53:22.:53:26.

because there was an anonymous ?25,000 donation given to the family

:53:27.:53:33.

on Friday. I put it to the people across the House, that cannot

:53:34.:53:43.

possibly be right. The right honourable gentleman will also know

:53:44.:53:46.

that when being assessed for financial support, it is not just

:53:47.:53:50.

the image at family that has finances looked at, it is also the

:53:51.:53:56.

extended family as well. Extraordinarily unfair and I have to

:53:57.:54:01.

say, I think his government has made it an affair with the cops to legal

:54:02.:54:05.

aid because people are not just getting through now. They are not

:54:06.:54:11.

getting funding when they are applying. They are being

:54:12.:54:13.

unrepresented at these inquests and that cannot be right. I accept that

:54:14.:54:23.

cases like Hillsborough required a lot of input from lawyers but

:54:24.:54:27.

someone who has a knee jerk reaction that we should not be feeding

:54:28.:54:33.

lawyers, does he think it is a possibility in other cases that the

:54:34.:54:40.

chief coroner could lay down rules that the other side should be either

:54:41.:54:44.

given legal representation or the other side are told they are not

:54:45.:54:52.

needed? If he looks at the way we have constructed our amendment, it

:54:53.:54:56.

is designed to develop the same effect. It is designed to say there

:54:57.:55:00.

should be parity of legal funding and that is an incentive for the

:55:01.:55:05.

public sector not to spend too much, because if it has to fund the

:55:06.:55:10.

families as well, it may bring down the legal bill, it may not add

:55:11.:55:16.

further costs. Now we have the choice coroner and in the past, the

:55:17.:55:26.

coroner's Bill, some recognition of parity would be welcome but I've got

:55:27.:55:34.

to say, the knee jerk reaction these days is to get a lawyer involved. In

:55:35.:55:42.

some cases you may not need it. Do you know what we need? We need

:55:43.:55:46.

inquisitorial inquests rather than adversarial inquests because with

:55:47.:55:53.

the case of Hillsborough, the Lord Chief Justice made a very specific

:55:54.:55:56.

ruling when he quashed the original inquest and he said that the new

:55:57.:56:01.

inquest he hoped given the fact that police had clearly tainted the

:56:02.:56:06.

evidence, should not degenerate into an adversarial battle, but that is

:56:07.:56:14.

exactly what happened. At public expense, and individual particularly

:56:15.:56:19.

hired to represent the former officers, a Mr John Beggs went into

:56:20.:56:23.

that court room and repeated all kinds of lies at public expense and

:56:24.:56:29.

innuendo about the supporters of Liverpool football club. We

:56:30.:56:34.

witnessed it. It was a particularly unpleasant thing to witness but it

:56:35.:56:39.

is even more galling to know that we are paying for that and this brings

:56:40.:56:44.

me on to this final point. It is not just the cost of all of this, it is

:56:45.:56:52.

the way that the manner in which people are questioned that is also

:56:53.:56:59.

so gross and so unjust. Let me give a final example. After a long fight

:57:00.:57:07.

by her family, the House will note that an inquest was recently held

:57:08.:57:11.

into the death of Cheryl James who died at the geek at barracks in

:57:12.:57:16.

Surrey. The QC acting for the Surrey Police was the same Mr John Beggs. I

:57:17.:57:24.

know from speaking to Cheryl's family that they were deeply hurt by

:57:25.:57:29.

an intrusive and aggressive line of questioning that focused on a number

:57:30.:57:34.

of varied personal questions and they were particularly hurt by an

:57:35.:57:38.

untrue allegation that was levelled at them, that Mr James had made a

:57:39.:57:46.

number of enquiries to Surrey Police and as a result according to Mr

:57:47.:57:52.

Beggs had distracted the police from the mini Dowler investigation. That

:57:53.:57:56.

is what was said. Can you imagine how he felt when he heard that?

:57:57.:58:01.

Trying to just get to the truth as to what happened to his daughter and

:58:02.:58:08.

finding himself the subject of an outrageous, appalling slur like that

:58:09.:58:14.

which in fact the Dowler family, such is their decency, stepped in to

:58:15.:58:19.

correct. It should not be like this. It really must not be like this. We

:58:20.:58:23.

have a situation where any police force in the land, they have

:58:24.:58:29.

instruction to hired this individual if they feel they are in a tight

:58:30.:58:33.

spot. They pay great amounts of public money to do this. It should

:58:34.:58:39.

not be allowed to carry on, it should be called time on today. I

:58:40.:58:45.

think that type of adversarial inquest is wrong but is it not

:58:46.:58:51.

something again, the chief coroner could lay down in guidance to

:58:52.:59:01.

coroners to stop that behaviour. It does not help to get to the truth

:59:02.:59:05.

and I think my honourable friend is making a good point. I cannot see

:59:06.:59:13.

why the Government would not accept a bill proposed by Lord will that

:59:14.:59:23.

would create an office at national level of an individual support

:59:24.:59:28.

bereaved families so that each family does not have to reinvent the

:59:29.:59:32.

wheel and go through all be learning to get ready for an inquest. That is

:59:33.:59:38.

another good proposal. I will finish on this point. There is a very

:59:39.:59:44.

simple principle that we are seeking to establish here and in the words

:59:45.:59:49.

of Mr James, it is about parity of arms. If there is going to be an

:59:50.:59:55.

adversarial battle in the courtroom, at least give bereaved families the

:59:56.:00:00.

same ability to defend themselves as the public sector have. I feel this

:00:01.:00:05.

is an unanswerable principle and I am sorry the Government has decided

:00:06.:00:10.

it cannot support this tonight. I note they are waiting for the

:00:11.:00:14.

conclusion of this chip James's report but this is than

:00:15.:00:20.

Hillsborough. This is much bigger than Hillsborough. This goes through

:00:21.:00:24.

a whole number of families who are facing injustice of a similar kind

:00:25.:00:29.

today. It has got to be the case, has it not, that public money should

:00:30.:00:34.

fund the establishment of the truth and particularly help people get to

:00:35.:00:38.

the truth at the first time of asking. Why? Because that should be

:00:39.:00:44.

used by public bodies to learn, to look at where they went wrong, to

:00:45.:00:49.

see where they went wrong. Instead they go into these courtrooms to

:00:50.:00:54.

defend themselves, reputations and spend large amounts of taxpayers's

:00:55.:00:59.

money. I would hope the Government would agree with the spirit with

:01:00.:01:03.

what I am saying tonight. If they do agree with the spirit, I would hope

:01:04.:01:07.

they would give a clear commitment this evening that they support the

:01:08.:01:12.

aim of parity funding for families at inquest and from there, hopefully

:01:13.:01:16.

we might be able to move forward but from what I gather, they have not

:01:17.:01:22.

done enough from my point of view and I am afraid to say to the

:01:23.:01:26.

Minister, unless he is able to provide that level of reassurance,

:01:27.:01:31.

we will press this amendment to a vote tonight because we are

:01:32.:01:35.

determined to make health for a moment of real change in this

:01:36.:01:40.

country. It must be a watershed when power shifts towards the hands of

:01:41.:01:45.

ordinary people and away from those in positions of power.

:01:46.:01:52.

That is what people are expecting this Parliament to do. We cannot

:01:53.:01:58.

face a 27 year injustice and then feel we do not have two act, we can

:01:59.:02:05.

carry on as we wear, we cannot. Ordinary people are facing in

:02:06.:02:08.

justice today and I been ground down as the battle to get the truth and

:02:09.:02:13.

justice. Let's do the right thing tonight Madame deputies eager, I

:02:14.:02:18.

call on all sides of the House to support the package we are putting

:02:19.:02:21.

forward tonight and in doing so let's finally make this country a

:02:22.:02:26.

fairer country where power is more evenly shared among people from all

:02:27.:02:33.

backgrounds. We have about 90 minutes before wind-up starts and I

:02:34.:02:36.

think we have eight members wishing to speak in this debate. I don't

:02:37.:02:45.

criticise the shadow Secretary for one moment for speaking for 45

:02:46.:02:50.

minutes, he had a lot to say. He knows a lot about the believed

:02:51.:02:53.

families of Hillsborough and all that goes with that so I don't want

:02:54.:02:58.

to criticise him for that what I would do if I may generally before I

:02:59.:03:05.

come on to talk about new clause 23, is perhaps, and I don't know the

:03:06.:03:13.

sill that he referred to but I've never met him, he referred to him

:03:14.:03:18.

twice and accused him of unattractive conduct, speaking on

:03:19.:03:23.

instructions he did not go in there I would assume in line with the

:03:24.:03:27.

tradition and professional standards of the bark laboratory to attack

:03:28.:03:34.

people. He was acting for the two public authorities on the two

:03:35.:03:37.

separate occasions and it was his duty to put those clients' case. It

:03:38.:03:42.

may have been an unattractive case and we come across as deeply

:03:43.:03:47.

upsetting to the people he was cross-examining but it was his

:03:48.:03:51.

recessional duty to do that. It might be that another man might have

:03:52.:03:55.

done it differently or another client might have given different

:03:56.:03:58.

instructions but I think it is a bit mean to call out a particular artist

:03:59.:04:05.

here in the House of Commons. I don't want to be distracted because

:04:06.:04:09.

we have a very short space of time. I just want to defend the method I

:04:10.:04:15.

which the profession as to represent his clients. That aside, I don't

:04:16.:04:21.

have much to criticise the Shadow Home Secretary for. What I do want

:04:22.:04:26.

to do is quickly in the short space of time available dock about new

:04:27.:04:31.

clause 23 which is a new clause which will require the removal of

:04:32.:04:39.

the requirement for prior authorisation exempting in the

:04:40.:04:49.

existing section 60 eight 80 in the -60 double A. They remove items

:04:50.:04:57.

where they are used for the purpose of concealed identities. The context

:04:58.:05:04.

in which I and about 22 other honourable members of this House

:05:05.:05:09.

have tabled this new clause goes back to the criminal Justice and

:05:10.:05:14.

Public order act of the NT 94 where under section 60 of that act

:05:15.:05:23.

Parliament gave the police the power we are an officer at the rank of

:05:24.:05:30.

inspector or more senior reasonably leaved that incidents involving

:05:31.:05:35.

serious violence may take place in any locality in his police area as

:05:36.:05:39.

an expedient to give authorisation to prevent. Or that people are

:05:40.:05:47.

carrying offensive weapons in the locality without good reason, that

:05:48.:05:50.

in Europe police officer might give an authorisation that items can be

:05:51.:06:00.

exercised in that locality foray specially specified amount of time

:06:01.:06:07.

not more than 24 hours. Geographically limited and

:06:08.:06:13.

time-limited for the police to do certain things. That was extended in

:06:14.:06:24.

2001 by the addition of section 60AA which gave the lease in that

:06:25.:06:30.

geographical for that limited time to require the removal of disguises

:06:31.:06:35.

and so, provided there was prior authorisation and that authorisation

:06:36.:06:38.

was written and it was for 24 hours or ethics tended by another officer

:06:39.:06:44.

for another 24 hours, within that limited location the constable in

:06:45.:06:51.

uniform was enabled to require any person to remove an item which he

:06:52.:06:56.

believes is being worn wholly or mainly for the purpose of concealing

:06:57.:07:05.

his identity. So, it wasn't until 2001 that the 94 act was amended to

:07:06.:07:13.

allow the police in certain limited circumstances to be authorised to

:07:14.:07:21.

deal with disguises. In 2011 you will remember that the where

:07:22.:07:28.

widespread riots throughout the country in August of that year and

:07:29.:07:33.

following those riots the government issued a consultation paper to

:07:34.:07:41.

consider whether the things needed to be looked at. Firstly it dealt

:07:42.:07:47.

with the use of the word insulting in the public order act. Actually it

:07:48.:07:52.

looked that new powers to request the removal of face coverings and

:07:53.:07:56.

thirdly Edward that new powers to impose curfews. The reason why the

:07:57.:08:00.

government thought it appropriate to consult in relation to new powers

:08:01.:08:10.

over disguises and so forth is that, and it says here in the document,

:08:11.:08:17.

the consultation aims to progress the commitment made by the Prime

:08:18.:08:23.

Minister with request to the removal of face coverings. The government

:08:24.:08:28.

announced that the police would be given extended powers to demand the

:08:29.:08:33.

removal of face coverings and any circumstances where there was

:08:34.:08:38.

reasonable suspicion of criminal activity. Interestingly, the

:08:39.:08:42.

government didn't respond to this consultation other than with

:08:43.:08:46.

relation to insulting words and behaviour and the law was amended in

:08:47.:08:52.

that regard. However, as regards the power to reply to removal of face

:08:53.:09:01.

coverings it was dated back to 2001. As I said, this power is

:09:02.:09:06.

geographically limited, time-limited and requires prior authorisation.

:09:07.:09:12.

I've had the benefit of two meetings now with my right honourable friend

:09:13.:09:16.

the Minister and he very generously allowed me and two of my honourable

:09:17.:09:20.

friends to try to persuade him that the law needed to be changed. On

:09:21.:09:26.

this occasion there were only eight officials in the room but he was

:09:27.:09:31.

unpersuaded it seems to me on the advice he had been given by official

:09:32.:09:38.

police officers that a change in the law was necessary. Indeed it was

:09:39.:09:42.

suggested to me that our new clause could weaken the police powers to

:09:43.:09:48.

remove disguises. The thing we need to realise is that the people who

:09:49.:09:52.

attend demonstrations waiting Alec Lavers, winning face coverings, are

:09:53.:10:01.

not doing it simply to avoid their identities being discovered. Clearly

:10:02.:10:07.

if you go to a demonstration at which a lawful activity is going on

:10:08.:10:12.

and the police are able to film it and whether it is local authority

:10:13.:10:15.

CCTV cameras covering it, the is no better way of avoiding detection or

:10:16.:10:19.

avoiding being caught than by disguising your face cause,

:10:20.:10:25.

essentially, in most criminal cases, not all, but most criminal cases,

:10:26.:10:31.

the identity of the perpetrator is a fairly central part of the

:10:32.:10:34.

prosecutor 's case. I am reasonably sure that in the days when people

:10:35.:10:40.

used to run into banks with shotguns and hold it up normally waving a

:10:41.:10:45.

stocking over the face, they were not wearing silk stockings on the

:10:46.:10:49.

ahead because they liked the feel of silk on their face, they were

:10:50.:10:54.

weaving these sill stockings or even tights and therefore nylon over at

:10:55.:10:58.

the faces, in order to prevent their being discovered. The same thing, I

:10:59.:11:03.

suspect, goes for people who are intent upon pretty unattractive

:11:04.:11:09.

behaviour in the streets here in London, in Manchester at the last

:11:10.:11:14.

Conservative Party conference with people in masks at at delegates

:11:15.:11:19.

going into the conference hall. They also do it to intimidate. There is

:11:20.:11:24.

nothing more intimidating than seeing somebody covered like that

:11:25.:11:30.

coming at you or demonstrating with a view to causing trouble. Yes, of

:11:31.:11:37.

course, the outlawed already on the statute book which make it possible

:11:38.:11:42.

for a police officer to go in and arrest somebody waving a facemask if

:11:43.:11:47.

he is committing an offence that in the event that this is a large-scale

:11:48.:11:51.

demonstration, in the event there are not enough police officers to

:11:52.:11:56.

make it safe or practical for that police officer to go in and

:11:57.:12:00.

therefore police need to lie on video evidence or film evidence of

:12:01.:12:05.

the perpetrator, it strikes me as unreal for a police officer to rely

:12:06.:12:12.

on the existing power of limited geographical nature, a limited time

:12:13.:12:18.

structure, in order to get in and deal with the matter. Is he getting

:12:19.:12:24.

restless? I am conscious I may not have time but he indicated earlier I

:12:25.:12:29.

was not persuaded. I did listen very much to the lease officers but I

:12:30.:12:36.

also want to indicate no the is a stop and search review coming up

:12:37.:12:42.

later this year and we would insert face coverings into that review so

:12:43.:12:47.

we have a better understanding. I think that is a significant

:12:48.:12:51.

concession. That is a change in attitude and I am grateful but I am

:12:52.:12:55.

not sure reviews is what we need. My understanding is that the police do

:12:56.:13:01.

not want this change because they think the powers they have are

:13:02.:13:07.

adequate for what they need to do but it isn't because these events

:13:08.:13:12.

are happening. People are being terrified, people are being

:13:13.:13:14.

inhibited from going about their lawful is this in the countryside

:13:15.:13:20.

and in urban areas and it is not good enough for us to rely for a

:13:21.:13:26.

change in the lease code or a change following some review. The

:13:27.:13:32.

government did not reply to its own consultation in 2011. I need to

:13:33.:13:37.

press the government to get this matter properly ventilated. One of

:13:38.:13:41.

the jobs I have in Parliament is to express the concerns of the public

:13:42.:13:45.

from my own constituency and other parts of the public who are

:13:46.:13:50.

dissatisfied about the level of police activity in policing this

:13:51.:13:57.

sort of behaviour. A review is nothing to do with what the police

:13:58.:14:03.

actually want. When we did a review of stop and search because it would

:14:04.:14:09.

be inappropriate that is why there was a review. If we thought it was

:14:10.:14:14.

being used anyway my constituents would not expect them peace will be

:14:15.:14:22.

changed. Reviews do not come up very often, this is a golden opportunity.

:14:23.:14:26.

I will look forward to seeing the terms of the review that my right

:14:27.:14:29.

honourable friend has look forward and I trust him when he says it is

:14:30.:14:34.

going to be useful but right out constituents in rural and in urban

:14:35.:14:40.

areas are very distressed at the way in which face masks are used to

:14:41.:14:47.

terrify and to hide criminal activity rather the identities of

:14:48.:14:51.

criminals. The sooner we get this matter debated and debated with

:14:52.:14:56.

reasonable time to contribute to the discussions on the floor of this

:14:57.:15:02.

House or in the other place... I am grateful to my right honourable

:15:03.:15:06.

friend. As he knows I1 of the co-signatories on his amendment. The

:15:07.:15:10.

problem with the situation at the moment is the constable on duty they

:15:11.:15:14.

require a face covering to be removed but he does then require

:15:15.:15:19.

post-authorisation from a senior officer on duty and I think in both

:15:20.:15:23.

the lack will case and in my own place in the badger cull where

:15:24.:15:27.

somebody was art any car late at night for several nights with masks

:15:28.:15:31.

on to deliberately intimidate residents in the nearest farmhouse I

:15:32.:15:35.

am not sure whether the constables on duty knew whether they would get

:15:36.:15:40.

that prior or post-authorisation and this was will make it crystal clear

:15:41.:15:45.

if it is passed into this ill. I am grateful for the support. I hope

:15:46.:15:52.

this new clause will make it easier for them to do what they have to do

:15:53.:15:55.

which is arrest frightening people who are intent on doing criminal

:15:56.:16:00.

things. The problem, it seems to me, and it is clear on the face of

:16:01.:16:08.

section 60 and 60AA which is a problem which was removed by our new

:16:09.:16:12.

clause if the need prior authorisation. It may be that has a

:16:13.:16:17.

matter of practice that is ignored and if it is ignored it would

:16:18.:16:21.

suggest to media art leaving on lawfully when they give themselves

:16:22.:16:25.

host of forestry and write it down in a notebook.

:16:26.:16:30.

That isn't, it seems to me, what the current legislation requires. We

:16:31.:16:39.

need to bring this to a close now and also to ensure that the police

:16:40.:16:43.

are given the powers that the public believe they should have, in order

:16:44.:16:47.

to prevent this disgusting behaviour from continuing. I writes for the

:16:48.:16:58.

SNP principally to place on record our unending admiration for the

:16:59.:17:02.

honourable member for Lee and other members on both sides of the chamber

:17:03.:17:06.

who have fought this righteous fight for so many years, for so many

:17:07.:17:11.

people who have been lied to and have been subject to the most

:17:12.:17:15.

horrendous cover up. I echo pretty much all of the roads -- words that

:17:16.:17:20.

he said at the dispatch box earlier. Football is very important for

:17:21.:17:24.

people in Scotland, as the Right Honourable member will understand.

:17:25.:17:27.

We send more people to football games per head of population than

:17:28.:17:36.

anywhere else in the UK than everyone can understand the fear of

:17:37.:17:39.

setting a loved one store football game and I'm not returning. Things

:17:40.:17:45.

like the Ibrox disaster are scarred into Scottish consciousness and we

:17:46.:17:47.

are committed to helping the honourable member for Lee to try get

:17:48.:17:51.

justice to all those people. The police system in Scotland is a

:17:52.:17:56.

devolved area and we are not perhaps able to offer any support other than

:17:57.:18:00.

in principle this evening, but I would just like to place that on

:18:01.:18:06.

record and wish him, his colleagues all the best for their fight for

:18:07.:18:14.

justice. Thank you for calling me to speak in this debate. I would like

:18:15.:18:21.

to speak to new clause 20 29, 32 and 43, all tabled in my name. I will

:18:22.:18:26.

try to be brief. Can I thank the honourable lady, my honourable

:18:27.:18:28.

friend for Staffordshire Moorlands for all the time she has taken in

:18:29.:18:32.

the past few weeks to discuss my concerns with me and I would like to

:18:33.:18:35.

thank my right honourable friend for Hemel Hempstead who has made himself

:18:36.:18:37.

available to me and I would also like to thank the Home Secretary. As

:18:38.:18:54.

you will know there is significant concern around the interaction

:18:55.:18:56.

between policing and mental health services and it is these issues that

:18:57.:18:59.

I wish to turn my attention to. New clause 26 places an obligation for

:19:00.:19:03.

chief constables to ensure that their police officers are properly

:19:04.:19:09.

trained in diversity and in equality in relation to mental health issues

:19:10.:19:15.

and specifically the issues that relate to ethnic minorities. I have

:19:16.:19:20.

worked very closely over the past five years with black mental health

:19:21.:19:25.

UK and they have raised these concerns directly with the Home

:19:26.:19:28.

Office and members for a number of years and I would like to read this

:19:29.:19:34.

paragraph out from their briefing. The joint Home Office and Department

:19:35.:19:39.

of Health revenue section 13513 sex of the Mental Health Act 1993

:19:40.:19:44.

acknowledged that in particular black African Caribbean men are

:19:45.:19:48.

disproportionately overrepresented in section 136 detentions, compared

:19:49.:19:53.

to the general population, and that black African Caribbean men in

:19:54.:19:56.

particular reported the use of force was more likely to be used against

:19:57.:20:01.

them by the police. These are legitimate and real concerns and

:20:02.:20:05.

they have been subject to academic research and they need to be

:20:06.:20:11.

addressed. I would say that nearly three years ago the Home Secretary

:20:12.:20:16.

hosted a fantastic conference at the QE2 Centre, co-hosted with black

:20:17.:20:20.

mental health UK and my right honourable friend from Hemel

:20:21.:20:23.

Hempstead spoke there and great strides are being made but we need

:20:24.:20:28.

to make sure further progress happens in the months and years

:20:29.:20:36.

ahead. New clause 26 requires the chief police officer to notify ad

:20:37.:20:40.

make an annual report to the Home Secretary as to what progress has

:20:41.:20:46.

been made in relation to diversity and equality training. I am not

:20:47.:20:49.

going to push this to the vote tonight but I have had assurances

:20:50.:20:53.

from ministers that this will be looked at seriously and my

:20:54.:20:56.

honourable friend is wishing to catch my attention. Thank you. This

:20:57.:21:03.

goes to the heart of the concept of policing by consent. I don't think

:21:04.:21:10.

anybody who has had policing -- involvement in policing will be

:21:11.:21:14.

unaware of the friction that exists between policing in many members of

:21:15.:21:18.

the UK black communities. Does he agree with me that an explicit step

:21:19.:21:24.

in this direction would go a long way to build bridges between UK

:21:25.:21:28.

policing and a very significant minority group in the UK. I agree

:21:29.:21:34.

with my right honourable friend and that is why I am delighted that my

:21:35.:21:39.

concerns have received such close attention from the government and

:21:40.:21:43.

the Treasury front bench and will continue to receive attention. I am

:21:44.:21:47.

looking forward to further updates in relation to this matter. The

:21:48.:21:52.

government is working very closely with black mental health UK and its

:21:53.:21:56.

principal and I hope those conversations continue. I did say I

:21:57.:21:59.

would try and be five minutes and I did stray a little bit over that but

:22:00.:22:05.

I do want to make progress. New clause 29 relates to access to legal

:22:06.:22:09.

advice before someone is detained under the Mental Health Act 19 83. I

:22:10.:22:15.

know that the opposition has tabled a new clause 24 which relates to

:22:16.:22:21.

advocacy. 29 is a probing amendment but the removal of someone's liberty

:22:22.:22:26.

should never happen lightly and again there is a great concern

:22:27.:22:31.

amongst the African Caribbean community and black mental health

:22:32.:22:35.

that if you are a black male, and a young, black male in particular you

:22:36.:22:42.

are more likely to have your liberty removed. This is a genuine request

:22:43.:22:46.

but I am not sure if it is delivering -- deliverable because

:22:47.:22:50.

often in section a new operating in a highly stressed situation on the

:22:51.:22:53.

needs of the individual who is ill at the time should be central to

:22:54.:22:56.

that sectioning but it does give voice to a very real concern and I

:22:57.:23:01.

am interested in the opposition's new clause 24 in relation to

:23:02.:23:05.

advocacy. Advocacy is often talked about but it is not delivered in the

:23:06.:23:12.

way it should be and this is an issue that might front bench is

:23:13.:23:15.

aware. I want to turn to new clause 42 and 43 which relate to the

:23:16.:23:21.

deployment of police officers on the wards and the use of Taser is. I am

:23:22.:23:25.

well aware that the right honourable gentleman for North Norfolk will be

:23:26.:23:29.

speaking to new clause 40, which is connected to this. I cannot be

:23:30.:23:37.

absolutist in my approach to this. I know black mental health never wants

:23:38.:23:41.

to see police officers used on mental health wards and I would

:23:42.:23:44.

share that view but I think there will always be occasions where that

:23:45.:23:50.

possibility will remain, but when the police officers are detained --

:23:51.:23:54.

deployed to mental health wards I really do believe there should be an

:23:55.:24:02.

almost immediate notification to the Police and Crime Commissioners and

:24:03.:24:03.

the Independent Police Complaints Commission that the deployment has

:24:04.:24:07.

taken place and I know that Home Office ministers are working very

:24:08.:24:10.

closely with Department of Health, collating battered statistics about

:24:11.:24:14.

the use of force and restraint, but we cannot wait 365 days before

:24:15.:24:19.

receiving this information. This information, when police are

:24:20.:24:23.

deployed on mental health wards, needs to be made available

:24:24.:24:29.

immediately. Immediately. Again, I have received assurances from the

:24:30.:24:33.

front that work will be done on this and I know that time is short but I

:24:34.:24:38.

hope in summing up today the front bench will be able to reassure

:24:39.:24:44.

myself and black mental health that work is being done on this. Finally

:24:45.:24:48.

it is the use of Taser is on mental health wards. My right honourable

:24:49.:24:53.

friend is with great justification and passion going to argue that

:24:54.:24:57.

Taser 's should never be used on mental health wards and my heart is

:24:58.:25:02.

with him on those arguments but my head says there may be some highly

:25:03.:25:07.

charged situations where a Tasered does need to be used but right now

:25:08.:25:11.

we know they are being used but we are not collating or collecting the

:25:12.:25:17.

information and there is no way for the house to find out what is going

:25:18.:25:22.

on. Where are Taser is used, and I hope it is never used, but in the

:25:23.:25:26.

event where it is used then the report has to be made within one

:25:27.:25:32.

week to the Police and Crime Commissioner and the Independent

:25:33.:25:33.

Police Complaints Commission. I am not suggesting for a minute that any

:25:34.:25:37.

police officer will follow this course of action lightly but we must

:25:38.:25:42.

remember that we are talking about safe hospital environments where a

:25:43.:25:48.

Taser and forces being used. I have received assurances from the

:25:49.:25:50.

government front bench in relation to this and I hope they can refer to

:25:51.:25:56.

those assurances in the wind-up. I am sorry I have gone on for a little

:25:57.:26:01.

longer than I said I would. I would finally draw the front bench

:26:02.:26:06.

attention to a trial in Los Angeles where Taser 's are linked to body

:26:07.:26:11.

cameras by Bluetooth so immediately a Taser is drawn, the camera starts

:26:12.:26:16.

recording and it does not need to be manually started by the police

:26:17.:26:19.

officer and as soon as the Taser is drawn the recording starts and that

:26:20.:26:22.

could be something the Home Office would like to look at. I apologise

:26:23.:26:26.

for speaking longer than I said I would. It is a pleasure to follow

:26:27.:26:32.

the honourable member for Broxbourne who has raised so many important

:26:33.:26:35.

issues that actually the time that the needs and this house leads to

:26:36.:26:40.

discuss all of these issues is not sufficient in a debate of this kind.

:26:41.:26:47.

I want to concentrate on just two aspects of the amendments. Two

:26:48.:26:49.

amendments that have been put as part of the list stage of the bill,

:26:50.:26:57.

and combine my remarks to those two. The first relates to the decision by

:26:58.:27:04.

the government to accept the representations of the home affairs

:27:05.:27:09.

committee to place an initial 28 day limit on precharge bail. I am sorry

:27:10.:27:13.

that the Minister has left the chamber because I wanted to pay

:27:14.:27:16.

tribute to him for the fact that he is one of the very few ministers

:27:17.:27:19.

that we have encountered who actually writes back to the select

:27:20.:27:23.

committee and says that the government is going to adopt some of

:27:24.:27:28.

the recommendations that we have made. He did so in respect of 28

:27:29.:27:34.

day, a 28 day limit on precharge bail and we have raised this on a

:27:35.:27:38.

number of issues and a number of cases, the most recently being our

:27:39.:27:41.

report on police bail which considered the case of Mr Paul

:27:42.:27:47.

Gambaccini, and the need for there to be some kind of end to the

:27:48.:27:51.

extension of police bail, which just goes on and on without there being

:27:52.:27:55.

any limits. This is very welcome and I think very important. The next new

:27:56.:28:03.

clause I want to concentrate on is new clause 22, which is the

:28:04.:28:08.

surrender of travel documentation. My honourable friend, the member for

:28:09.:28:11.

Birmingham Erdington, I don't know if you will be speaking to this new

:28:12.:28:15.

clause when it comes to wind-up, but I support it very strongly and it

:28:16.:28:21.

goes a long way to putting into law our concerns about terrorist

:28:22.:28:28.

suspects who are able to leave the country without giving up their

:28:29.:28:32.

passports, or even being asked for their passports. The committee in

:28:33.:28:37.

our evidence sessions concerning the review that we are doing into

:28:38.:28:46.

counterterrorism, the counter narrative, took interesting evidence

:28:47.:28:50.

from the sister of a man who fled the United Kingdom while he was on

:28:51.:28:54.

police bail and despite being asked politely by the police to send in

:28:55.:28:59.

his passport, by the time he had received that letter, well, he never

:29:00.:29:05.

received that letter because he had left the country, after being

:29:06.:29:11.

released from the country -- police bail, so he never got the polite

:29:12.:29:16.

letter because he was already in Syria by then. What the government

:29:17.:29:19.

is proposing in the legislation is very welcome but new clause 22 goes

:29:20.:29:24.

a little bit further and I hope very much that we will get the government

:29:25.:29:30.

to change its mind and access to the wording of new clause 22, because it

:29:31.:29:33.

is very much in keeping with the evidence given to us by the head of

:29:34.:29:41.

counterterrorism, when he said that when someone surrenders a passport

:29:42.:29:47.

immediately then they are able to, at least the police and security

:29:48.:29:50.

services know where that passport is, and if they breach that

:29:51.:29:55.

requirement, in other words if they don't hand over their passport, of

:29:56.:29:59.

course they would be in breach of bail. The Prime Minister...

:30:00.:30:06.

Certainly. I thank the right honourable gentleman and I

:30:07.:30:08.

understand that in my absence he said something nice about me so it

:30:09.:30:12.

is probably a good idea that I wasn't here. Is he aware that the

:30:13.:30:16.

police have the powers now, when granting police bail, to go with the

:30:17.:30:21.

individual and physically take the passport or travel document before

:30:22.:30:28.

they actually release them? They do indeed, but in this particular case

:30:29.:30:31.

they did not do it and it is a problem. We don't know how many

:30:32.:30:34.

cases because this is the one we know about. It came into the public

:30:35.:30:40.

domain and he ended up on a video on YouTube, telling us what he was

:30:41.:30:45.

doing. There could be other cases but people are not very open about

:30:46.:30:49.

admitting mistakes so it may have happened before and I except that

:30:50.:30:54.

and I think enshrining it in legislation, as is proposed by new

:30:55.:30:58.

clause 22 is very helpful. My second point out my final point relates to

:30:59.:31:05.

new clause 64, moved by the Shadow Home Secretary, the important of

:31:06.:31:09.

Leveson Report two. I was chair of the select committee who met with

:31:10.:31:14.

the Prime Minister along with the then chair of the culture committee

:31:15.:31:20.

and the secretary of state now, Lord Alan Beith, when he chaired the

:31:21.:31:26.

Justice committee. The three chairs of those committees were called to

:31:27.:31:29.

see the Prime Minister when he was about to announce the establishment

:31:30.:31:33.

of the first leather sling where it. We accepted his arguments because he

:31:34.:31:37.

made very good arguments because actually we should have two

:31:38.:31:40.

enquiries as of one and he made a promise we would have a second

:31:41.:31:43.

enquiry once the first one had been completed. Before the first leather

:31:44.:31:49.

sling enquiry started I went to see Lord Justice Leveson and he said he

:31:50.:31:56.

did not think he would be around in the position he was in to have a

:31:57.:32:03.

second enquiry. He is now doing other things and it will take a

:32:04.:32:05.

number of years but I accept what the Home Secretary said to the

:32:06.:32:08.

committee on the 16th of December when she gave evidence to us and she

:32:09.:32:11.

said there were two cases outstanding and until those two

:32:12.:32:15.

cases are outstanding than she did not think they could start a macro

:32:16.:32:20.

32-macro. We have now found their ears, I don't know if it is those

:32:21.:32:23.

two cases embedded with the Minister can tell us the number, but there

:32:24.:32:26.

are still outstanding matters that need to be considered.

:32:27.:32:31.

There is no reason why we should not have a second Leveson Inquiry. We

:32:32.:32:42.

can't start that process, appointing a chair of the committee, getting

:32:43.:32:47.

the mechanics together, perhaps having a panel as he did with the

:32:48.:32:51.

first inquiry, but we get that whole recess started and then when the

:32:52.:32:55.

legal proceedings have been concluded, the Home Secretary can

:32:56.:33:00.

come to the chamber, or the Prime Minister, and say they are

:33:01.:33:03.

concluded, we will now start the second inquiry. Why wait for that

:33:04.:33:07.

old to be concluded first before starting that process? I think that

:33:08.:33:12.

will give comfort not just to those who fought so hard in the

:33:13.:33:17.

Hillsborough case but also to other people, members of the public, some

:33:18.:33:22.

of whom have had helicopters flying over their houses when they happen

:33:23.:33:26.

to be abroad because of the relationship between the police and

:33:27.:33:35.

the press. We only get to know about the high-profile cases. There is a

:33:36.:33:40.

very good reason why we should have this second inquiry. I hope very

:33:41.:33:46.

much that will be done. The honourable member for Dumfries

:33:47.:33:52.

Galloway offered to be the honest broker between the Government and

:33:53.:33:58.

opposition. He came up with a form of words which the Shadow Home

:33:59.:34:02.

Secretary was prepared to accept. I don't know whether there will be

:34:03.:34:06.

discussions behind your chair, Madam Deputy Speaker, but there is the

:34:07.:34:10.

opportunity to avert the need for a vote. The Government only needs to

:34:11.:34:18.

say we will have it but not yet. Therefore we can proceed to go onto

:34:19.:34:24.

report stage and third reading without the fighting -- dividing the

:34:25.:34:30.

House on the important changes to policing which the Government is

:34:31.:34:34.

proposing. A lot of which we accept, I accept of being -- as being part

:34:35.:34:40.

and parcel of the way we modernise our police force. It is perhaps

:34:41.:34:47.

appropriate to follow the chair of the Home Affairs Committee because I

:34:48.:34:51.

am conscious that my predecessor as chair of the justice Select

:34:52.:34:53.

Committee was present when those assurances were given. I don't doubt

:34:54.:34:59.

the good intentions of the right honourable Minister on the bench and

:35:00.:35:03.

I'm prepared to cut the Government 's lack. But there is an important

:35:04.:35:08.

point, which is this. It is not purely the high-profile cases which

:35:09.:35:14.

are of concern of many professionals in the justice system. He spoke

:35:15.:35:23.

about the impact of Hillsborough and scandals of that kind but equally of

:35:24.:35:29.

concerns to lawyers, like myself for 25 years, is the long-term

:35:30.:35:33.

day-to-day causing us of relationships which develop, I'm

:35:34.:35:38.

sorry to say, between police officers, not necessarily the

:35:39.:35:44.

highest level, and reporters. There is a risk unless something is done

:35:45.:35:49.

to deal with that, there can be concerns about potential

:35:50.:35:53.

miscarriages of justice. It is not purely something coming on the back

:35:54.:35:58.

of the headline catching. There is a more insidious culture which can

:35:59.:36:02.

only be dealt with by very firm management by the leadership of the

:36:03.:36:06.

police service. If that is not lacking, and it needs to be looked

:36:07.:36:11.

at in the appropriate format, there is no doubt any practitioner at the

:36:12.:36:23.

bar will now that surprisingly the local press have been aware that a

:36:24.:36:26.

particular person was going to be arrested and a particular search was

:36:27.:36:31.

going to be carried out. I'm afraid that cannot happen accidentally. I

:36:32.:36:37.

think there is an issue of general concern. I will turn to new clause

:36:38.:36:42.

23 which I have been a signatory to. I accept that the minister wants to

:36:43.:36:47.

take this forward but I must say I agree with the sentiments expressed

:36:48.:36:54.

by my right honourable friend the member for Harborough and what I

:36:55.:37:02.

would briefly add to it is this. It is certainly true that there is

:37:03.:37:07.

inevitably a reluctance by officials, I used to find that as a

:37:08.:37:13.

minister, and by senior officers to complicate regulations if they think

:37:14.:37:17.

what they have got will do. I don't think the advice the Minister has

:37:18.:37:25.

been given in good faith, but I speak to officers on the front line

:37:26.:37:29.

in my constituency and there are concerns about the inadequacy of

:37:30.:37:34.

current provisions are genuine and perhaps their experience does not

:37:35.:37:41.

mirror the advice of a minister may be getting from some of the top

:37:42.:37:46.

brass of the service. Or the concerns my constituents who go to

:37:47.:37:57.

London and are sometimes caught in these situations, report. Can I turn

:37:58.:38:04.

to the main issue I wanted to raise which I hinted at in my

:38:05.:38:08.

interventions to the Minister? It relates to new clause 40 eight. The

:38:09.:38:19.

fire -- 48. I welcome this change. It is something I wish I had been

:38:20.:38:25.

able to bring in when I was the Fire Service's minister myself. But the

:38:26.:38:28.

climate was not there for it to be done. I congratulate him up on it.

:38:29.:38:35.

It is a more front line experience. My involvement goes back to my

:38:36.:38:42.

involvement with the honourable gentleman the member for Poplar and

:38:43.:38:48.

Limehouse when back 30 years ago I was the leader of the London Fire

:38:49.:38:54.

and civil defence authority. Immediately after the abolition of

:38:55.:39:01.

the GLC. I lied about my age to join up, not actually the case. There was

:39:02.:39:13.

the old school inspectorate then we moved to an arrangement with the

:39:14.:39:18.

chief adviser and we all hoped that peer review and the work of bodies

:39:19.:39:25.

would achieve improvement from within. I think the Minister is

:39:26.:39:30.

right to conclude that is not delivering what we want to do and

:39:31.:39:34.

the evidence the Public Accounts Committee in their report set out

:39:35.:39:39.

very clearly. It is right to move to the inspectorate and I support that.

:39:40.:39:43.

The reason I raise what seems like an arcane and technical point is

:39:44.:39:51.

this. I will amplify why I think it is right. One problem with the old

:39:52.:39:56.

inspectorate is that it tended to be a bit of an old boys' club for

:39:57.:40:04.

retired senior officers. Must invariably, appointments came from a

:40:05.:40:08.

very narrow group of retired senior officers and it was a bit of a

:40:09.:40:14.

revolving door. Or questions both about it being up-to-the-minute in

:40:15.:40:17.

its knowledge and to the degree of independence it would bring.

:40:18.:40:22.

Genuinely an inspector can sometimes have to say hard things to a chief

:40:23.:40:27.

officer and his management team and that is not too easy if you've come

:40:28.:40:31.

fairly recently from within the ranks of a fairly close service.

:40:32.:40:35.

Where appropriate their should be greater flexibility to bring out a

:40:36.:40:41.

contractor who has expertise in the appropriate fields. It may not be

:40:42.:40:45.

for the whole of the inspection but it could be for a specific part. The

:40:46.:40:49.

obvious example is financial matters. It works also in relation

:40:50.:40:56.

to things like assurance of operational resilience because there

:40:57.:41:00.

is expertise now in the private sector as well as the public sector

:41:01.:41:05.

that can appropriately be brought to bear. I am obliged he gives way on

:41:06.:41:15.

this point. Might it also, in the new environment where we are

:41:16.:41:18.

encouraging greater collaboration between services, be the case that

:41:19.:41:24.

the fire inspectorate might want to lean on other senior members of the

:41:25.:41:30.

uniformed blue-eyed services to add their expertise in multi-agency

:41:31.:41:37.

working to support the inspectorate? My honourable friend, also a former

:41:38.:41:42.

chair of London Fire and emergency planning authority, makes an

:41:43.:41:51.

important point. All of us favour greater collaboration between the

:41:52.:41:54.

blue light services. I know that is where the Minister wants to go, too.

:41:55.:41:59.

We all want a formula to achieve that. My concern is that the wording

:42:00.:42:04.

as it is might make that hard work although I have no doubt that is not

:42:05.:42:07.

the intention of ministers. The reason I raise the concern is that

:42:08.:42:16.

as it reads, the new subsection A5, placed in section 28 of the 2004

:42:17.:42:21.

Fire And Rescue Services act, doesn't seem to cover the use of

:42:22.:42:28.

contractors. I will look very carefully at this and get a third

:42:29.:42:35.

reading this evening in the Lords and if I need to clarify that

:42:36.:42:39.

position then I will do so by government memo in Lords. I am

:42:40.:42:43.

grateful for that. That shortens what I have to say. To fortify him

:42:44.:42:49.

in saying that I think we all agree that the Public Accounts Committee

:42:50.:42:56.

found evidence that peer review process was not regarded as

:42:57.:43:03.

adequate. If the Minister is happy to deal with what might be on

:43:04.:43:10.

unintended think, I wish him well and I wish the Fire and Rescue

:43:11.:43:15.

Service well and I am happy to work to achieve that objective. I would

:43:16.:43:24.

like to address a few words to new clause 12 which stands in my name.

:43:25.:43:28.

It would amend section one of the coroners and Justice act 2009 and

:43:29.:43:36.

scrapped distressing rules that said dementia sufferers who die in care

:43:37.:43:44.

homes are classed as being in state detention under some circumstances.

:43:45.:43:48.

Families told me of their distress of having to wait to bury their

:43:49.:43:52.

loved ones because inquests are required into the deaths of dementia

:43:53.:43:59.

sufferers who are subject to things irrespective of the circumstances of

:44:00.:44:09.

the death. The threshold was Laurent of what is considered deprivation of

:44:10.:44:22.

liberty in care. It was said all persons who died subject to this

:44:23.:44:27.

order must be subject to a coroner's investigation. In the 2009 act, they

:44:28.:44:38.

are deemed to be in state detention. The amendment is suggested by the

:44:39.:44:42.

Chief coroner himself in response to and recognition of the distress

:44:43.:44:48.

caused to relatives. The chief coroner indicated that a simple

:44:49.:44:53.

amendment of the coroners and Justice act 2009 might solve the

:44:54.:44:57.

problem of unnecessary cases being reported to the coroner at least in

:44:58.:45:01.

the short term. The chief coroner said for the purposes of this act, a

:45:02.:45:08.

person who dies and subject two and those Asian granted under schedule

:45:09.:45:13.

A1 to their mental capacity act 2005, depriving that person of his

:45:14.:45:17.

or her liberty and detaining them in hospital or a care home does not die

:45:18.:45:24.

while in custody or otherwise in state detention. Constituents have

:45:25.:45:27.

contacted me including one woman who wrote after her mother died in a

:45:28.:45:33.

nursing home. She said her mother suffered from dementia and other

:45:34.:45:37.

problems and they sat with her for four days and nights before she

:45:38.:45:41.

died. Within one hour of her death uniformed police arrived and they

:45:42.:45:49.

were asked to leave the room. I am grateful. I too have had a very

:45:50.:45:55.

similar case of a constituent whose mother was in a nursing home who

:45:56.:45:58.

died and almost immediately the police came and for ten days had

:45:59.:46:04.

hold of her body. Doesn't that cause great distress to people at a time

:46:05.:46:09.

of mourning? Isn't it why we really need to tighten up on the rules

:46:10.:46:13.

regarding the deprivation of liberty?

:46:14.:46:18.

My honourable friend is right and I think there are many experiences of

:46:19.:46:24.

many people across the country of that kind of unnecessary distress

:46:25.:46:29.

and trauma. Since tabling the amendment the Law Commission issued

:46:30.:46:34.

an interim statement on May 25 which said that there is a compelling case

:46:35.:46:46.

for replacing this and the proposed new scheme should be removed from

:46:47.:46:50.

the definition. The current law requires an inquest where a person

:46:51.:46:55.

dies under a Doles, even if they cause of death was entirely natural,

:46:56.:47:01.

was seen to be causing unnecessary work for the sector families. He

:47:02.:47:06.

said they had received reports of police arriving at the deathbed of

:47:07.:47:12.

the deceased and one reported their impression of a crime scene and

:47:13.:47:17.

another referred to issuers of whether the disease body should go

:47:18.:47:20.

to the official mortuary rather than the family's chosen funeral

:47:21.:47:30.

director. I am proposing that we take the opportunity in the policing

:47:31.:47:35.

and crime in Bill to amend this legislation now because it offers us

:47:36.:47:38.

the opportunity to do that through this piece of primary legislation.

:47:39.:47:43.

Realistically the Law Commission reported interim and we would have

:47:44.:47:47.

to wait for the final report and then for legislation to be drafted

:47:48.:47:51.

and enacted and it could take up to two years and during that time many

:47:52.:47:55.

more families will continue to suffer distress. We talk a lot about

:47:56.:48:00.

supporting carers and I know from my own personal experience how

:48:01.:48:08.

distressing it can be to watch a loved relatives struggled to cope

:48:09.:48:10.

with dementia and their families struggle to support them. To then

:48:11.:48:13.

put relatives who have cared to the limits of their emotional capacity

:48:14.:48:15.

through the further trauma I have described at the time of the death

:48:16.:48:18.

of their loved one is heartless. I am not moving this amendment today

:48:19.:48:23.

but I hope that the Minister will have heard what I have said and I

:48:24.:48:28.

hope he will be talking to his colleagues in the health Department.

:48:29.:48:36.

I would like to say that you do the honourable lady for being generous

:48:37.:48:39.

in giving way. That is exactly what we are doing, not just in light of

:48:40.:48:43.

the Law Commission's partial report but also because of work that is

:48:44.:48:49.

already taking place. She is probing in exactly the right direction. Can

:48:50.:48:54.

I thank the Minister for that very positive reply from him. I look

:48:55.:48:59.

forward, when this bill goes to the Lords, to see the government's

:49:00.:49:03.

response amended to the bill. If that is the right phrase. Something

:49:04.:49:07.

like that! I thank him very much for that response. I rise to speak to

:49:08.:49:18.

the amendment tabled by my honourable friend for Broxbourne and

:49:19.:49:23.

the right Honourable member for North Norfolk. As the chair of the

:49:24.:49:28.

all-party group for mental health I just to caveat my remarks by saying

:49:29.:49:37.

the substantial changes in this bill for section 135 and 136 of the

:49:38.:49:40.

mental health bill are very big changes and it would be fair to say

:49:41.:49:46.

that in the last few years there has been considerable improvement in the

:49:47.:49:50.

way in which police forces and police officers deal with people in

:49:51.:49:54.

mental health crisis. I wanted to make some brief remarks in relation

:49:55.:50:02.

firstly to the new clause 42 and a new clause 43 tabled by my

:50:03.:50:09.

honourable friend for Broxbourne in relation to police officers being

:50:10.:50:11.

deployed in psychiatric wards because I think this does raise some

:50:12.:50:19.

important questions about when police officers are requested to

:50:20.:50:26.

take action within health -based settings. I think this speaks to a

:50:27.:50:37.

very important developing relationship between the police and

:50:38.:50:45.

the health service because clearly there will be circumstances in which

:50:46.:50:52.

because of the particular nature of an individual's condition and other

:50:53.:50:57.

circumstances in which it may be appropriate for police to be

:50:58.:51:03.

deployed in psychiatric settings it seems to me that it should be only

:51:04.:51:07.

in very, very exceptional circumstances. It might be that we

:51:08.:51:15.

need also to look at the way in which acute psychiatric units go

:51:16.:51:22.

about risk profiling individual patients which are in those acute

:51:23.:51:27.

settings. In order to ensure that it is very rare and exceptional that

:51:28.:51:34.

police officers are called upon to take action within those psychiatric

:51:35.:51:41.

settings, so I broadly support the intentions of the clauses which have

:51:42.:51:45.

been brought forward by my honourable friend for Broxbourne,

:51:46.:51:51.

who I know has done a lot of important work and he is a champion

:51:52.:51:56.

for this area and I also have a lot of sympathy for his new clause 43

:51:57.:52:03.

which talks about Taser 's and again I would agree with my honourable

:52:04.:52:09.

friend that it is only in the most exceptional circumstances that

:52:10.:52:12.

Tasers should be used within acute psychiatric settings and we should

:52:13.:52:17.

have very clear guidance and guidelines as to the appropriate

:52:18.:52:21.

time at which that kind of force should be deployed. In relation to

:52:22.:52:28.

new clause 58, tabled by the Right Honourable member for North Norfolk,

:52:29.:52:33.

we have not yet had an opportunity to speak to his amendment but I

:52:34.:52:36.

think it does raise some very important issues in relation to the

:52:37.:52:49.

implementation of the changes to section 135, that it is

:52:50.:52:53.

controversial that the idea of the way that a person's Private dwelling

:52:54.:52:58.

being characterised as a place of safety and it seems to me that his

:52:59.:53:03.

proposed amendment does raise some important questions which again

:53:04.:53:10.

speak to the relationship between policing and the health service and

:53:11.:53:16.

in terms of places of safety because I think we do need to think about

:53:17.:53:24.

how we can provide a broader range of alternative places of safety,

:53:25.:53:30.

some of which might not be within, they might not be health -based or

:53:31.:53:35.

national health service based places of safety, they might be in the

:53:36.:53:37.

voluntary sector and they might be in crisis houses and we do need to

:53:38.:53:47.

think about the capacity in the system to provide appropriate places

:53:48.:53:53.

of safety so I think that is... I think this is a really important

:53:54.:53:57.

point but to be brutally obsoletes -- listing government, unless we

:53:58.:54:02.

say, no, we will be the Port last resort, we will continue to be the

:54:03.:54:05.

first place they come to a gnat pushes other departments into

:54:06.:54:09.

getting their act together to do it so for the police having to say now

:54:10.:54:16.

that we will not hold people in police cells inappropriately because

:54:17.:54:18.

they can do it for other years and that will force other departments to

:54:19.:54:26.

do it. I thank the Minister for the intervention and there may be a

:54:27.:54:32.

role, for example, for Police and Crime Commissioners to explore this

:54:33.:54:36.

need to work more closely with the health service and others to provide

:54:37.:54:41.

the capacity for appropriate places of safety such that police officers

:54:42.:54:45.

do not have to make the sorts of decisions that are implied in new

:54:46.:54:54.

clause 58, so I think that, as I said at the beginning, the changes

:54:55.:54:58.

that were proposed in the bill overall are essential and they are

:54:59.:55:02.

transformative and I think we have to be very clear about what we mean

:55:03.:55:06.

by exceptional circumstances in which we are detaining people and we

:55:07.:55:14.

could move to a system where it becomes inappropriate in all

:55:15.:55:18.

circumstances even for adults to be detained in police cells and I

:55:19.:55:23.

recognise there may be a need to define exceptional circumstances in

:55:24.:55:26.

which that might happen and I think the changes proposed are positive

:55:27.:55:35.

and I think the amendments tabled by new clause 58 and others raise some

:55:36.:55:38.

important questions that the Minister should consider in summing

:55:39.:55:45.

up. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member for Halesowen and

:55:46.:55:50.

Rowley Regis. I very much welcome the contribution from the honourable

:55:51.:55:53.

member for Broxbourne who does a lot of campaigning on this issue. I have

:55:54.:55:59.

tabled a number of new clauses and amendments and the first one I

:56:00.:56:04.

wanted to deal with was the issue of whether we should be disallowing the

:56:05.:56:09.

use of the Taser is on psychiatric wards and I should say, before I get

:56:10.:56:15.

into the detail of this, that I, like other speakers, want to

:56:16.:56:19.

acknowledge the inspiring leadership of many leaders around the country

:56:20.:56:26.

who have, through force of strong moral leadership, managed to change

:56:27.:56:31.

practice in many parts of the country and we owe them an enormous

:56:32.:56:37.

debt of gratitude for that. The issue of the Taser is on psychiatric

:56:38.:56:44.

wards, the honourable member for Broxbourne made issue -- a reference

:56:45.:56:48.

to black mental health UK, great and importing campaigning organisation,

:56:49.:56:52.

and they have, as he mentioned, drawn attention to the fact that in

:56:53.:57:00.

particular black African Caribbean men are disproportionately

:57:01.:57:04.

overrepresented in section 136 detentions, compared to the general

:57:05.:57:08.

population. It is incidentally a conclusion from the joint Home

:57:09.:57:12.

Office and independent health review of section 135136 and black African

:57:13.:57:18.

and Caribbean men are in particular reporting that the use of force was

:57:19.:57:23.

more likely to be used against them by the police. I want to challenge

:57:24.:57:28.

the assumption that force is necessary at the level that is used

:57:29.:57:36.

at the moment. Black mental health UK referring their briefing for this

:57:37.:57:40.

debate to the United Nations committee against torture, which has

:57:41.:57:46.

stated that Taser weapons promote extreme plane, constitute a form of

:57:47.:57:52.

torture and in certain extreme cases can cause death. Whilst termed

:57:53.:57:56.

non-lethal there have been at least ten known deaths associated with the

:57:57.:58:01.

use of Taser in the last ten years. What I want to do by initiating this

:58:02.:58:06.

debate is to get a debate going on this subject and I am delighted that

:58:07.:58:13.

the Home Secretary herself has admitted, and I quote directly from

:58:14.:58:19.

her, I have been hearing stories, for example, that Tasers had been

:58:20.:58:22.

used in mental health wards. You think, hang on a minute, what is

:58:23.:58:25.

happening here? That is what we should all be doing and we should be

:58:26.:58:29.

questioning whether it is appropriate and that is why I have

:58:30.:58:35.

tabled this new clause. I then table a clause in effect to prohibit the

:58:36.:58:43.

use of police cells as a place of safety for adults. The government,

:58:44.:58:48.

and I absolutely welcome this, has implemented through this bill, the

:58:49.:58:52.

recommendation from the joint review to end the use of police cells for

:58:53.:58:56.

children and young people. When you look around the country and you see

:58:57.:59:00.

what has happened due to the inspiring leadership of many police

:59:01.:59:04.

officers working closely with mental health services, they have actually

:59:05.:59:08.

ended the use of police cells in some parts of the country in all

:59:09.:59:22.

but the most extreme circumstances so in London, for example, there are

:59:23.:59:26.

hardly any adults now going into police cells. That is a remarkable

:59:27.:59:28.

achievement. In the West Midlands hardly anyone for an hour to years

:59:29.:59:31.

has gone into a police cell as a result of section one 26. In these

:59:32.:59:34.

areas -- if these areas of the country, with impressive leadership,

:59:35.:59:36.

can do it then we should be challenging every part of the

:59:37.:59:39.

country to do so and the legislation should lead the way. The Minister

:59:40.:59:42.

himself, and I welcome the fact that he said this second reading, he

:59:43.:59:48.

said, unless we actually put a stop to the use of police cells and say

:59:49.:59:52.

enough is enough then we will not get the provision we need from other

:59:53.:59:57.

agencies. Absolutely right. We cannot use as an excuse not to do

:59:58.:00:01.

this the fact that the NHS is under pressure. If it is wrong, it is

:00:02.:00:04.

wrong, and it needs absolutely to be challenged. I then refer to my new

:00:05.:00:12.

clause 45, which is to ensure that in every case where there has been

:00:13.:00:17.

evidence of child sexual exploitation, that the victims are

:00:18.:00:21.

referred for a mental health assessment. In future in mind, the

:00:22.:00:27.

report that I published in March last year, following a task force

:00:28.:00:31.

that we set up to look at children's mental health services, it set out

:00:32.:00:36.

the need for trauma focused care, and the need for sexually abused or

:00:37.:00:42.

exploited children to receive, and I quote, a comprehensive specialist

:00:43.:00:46.

initial assessment and referral to appropriate services providing

:00:47.:00:50.

evidence -based interventions, according to their need. This new

:00:51.:00:53.

clause seeks to implement our recommendation. The LGA, in their

:00:54.:01:02.

briefing for this debate, has supported the intention, but raised

:01:03.:01:06.

concern about investment. Are we really saying that the lack of

:01:07.:01:10.

availability of mental health services is a reason not to ensure

:01:11.:01:15.

that every child who has suffered sexual exploitation gets the chance

:01:16.:01:19.

to proper assessment? Surely we have two set what is right in is

:01:20.:01:23.

legislation and then ensure that we provide the facilities to make that

:01:24.:01:28.

happen. Anything short of that would not, surely, be accessed double.

:01:29.:01:33.

There are very many individuals who, after suffering abuse and

:01:34.:01:44.

exploitation as a child, go on to be very ill in adult life. They suffer

:01:45.:01:46.

things like associative disorder, I have had a briefing on that very

:01:47.:01:48.

recently, it completely takes over your life and means you cannot work

:01:49.:01:51.

and you have difficult relationships throughout your life, so the cost to

:01:52.:01:55.

society is enormous, so let's make sure that we get those children the

:01:56.:02:00.

assessment of their needs that they surely deserve.

:02:01.:02:07.

Next I refer to new clause 58, the prohibition of using the home as a

:02:08.:02:15.

place of safety under section one 36. Under section 135 where a police

:02:16.:02:19.

officer goes to someone's home and it may be appropriate to stay with

:02:20.:02:24.

that person in their home under section one 35. Under section 136,

:02:25.:02:30.

to take someone by force to their home as a place of safety, the

:02:31.:02:35.

organisation Mind raised very serious concerns. Would he share my

:02:36.:02:42.

concerns which I raised in committee about detention at home, which is

:02:43.:02:48.

although it is welcome in this bill that it is going to try to reduce

:02:49.:02:51.

the number of people going into police cells, the fact to position

:02:52.:03:03.

-- de facto position is to take them home but it might be because of a

:03:04.:03:06.

lack of beds that is what they have to do? I am grateful for that

:03:07.:03:15.

intervention. He is right. The fear is that it becomes the default

:03:16.:03:19.

position because of the lack of resources in some localities. That

:03:20.:03:23.

would be a big mistake. In circumstances where section 136 is

:03:24.:03:29.

used, it should be a health -based place of safety the person is taken

:03:30.:03:35.

to. There is a real effort underway, showing real signs of success around

:03:36.:03:37.

the country through use of things like street triage to substantially

:03:38.:03:44.

reduce the use of section 136 at all and deal with issues in a more

:03:45.:03:48.

informal way. Where it must be used, we have to make sure the person is

:03:49.:03:54.

taken to the right place. Would he accept that perhaps we need to think

:03:55.:04:00.

about the definition of what we mean by a health -based place of safety?

:04:01.:04:07.

Somewhere in control of the National Health Service. But maybe that needs

:04:08.:04:13.

to be broader so a place of safety could be in a voluntary

:04:14.:04:16.

organisation, different location. That would be one way of improving

:04:17.:04:21.

capacity. I noticed his remarks in his speech and he is absolutely

:04:22.:04:27.

right. A crisis house, a place of safety provided by a particular

:04:28.:04:30.

community for people from that community, may well be the best

:04:31.:04:35.

place for that person to go. We should be willing to open up that

:04:36.:04:42.

definition in an appropriate way. I refer to new clause 59 which is

:04:43.:04:46.

about the right to an appropriate adult to those detained under

:04:47.:04:52.

sections 135 and 136. You have the right to mental health advocate if

:04:53.:04:56.

you are detained under the Mental Health Act except under section 135

:04:57.:05:05.

or 136. It seems to me that in all those circumstances the person may

:05:06.:05:09.

be very, very vulnerable and the idea of having a right to an

:05:10.:05:15.

appropriate adult, as Mind has argued for, is something the

:05:16.:05:18.

legislation should embrace. Finally I want to refer to when the clock

:05:19.:05:28.

should start. The bill reduces the maximum length of time someone

:05:29.:05:32.

should be held under section 136 whilst the assessment takes place,

:05:33.:05:40.

should be down to 24 hours. It may well be that if there is pressure on

:05:41.:05:45.

resources and facilities, someone could be kept in a police van,

:05:46.:05:50.

driven around a city, it sometimes happens, and that's time under the

:05:51.:05:53.

Government's current proposed definition would not count. Some

:05:54.:06:01.

hours could pass before the person arrives at the place of safety and

:06:02.:06:07.

other argument, again, Mind puts forward, contained within my

:06:08.:06:12.

amendment 125, is that the clock should start when the person is

:06:13.:06:15.

detained rather than when they arrive at a place of safety. So this

:06:16.:06:24.

set of amendments... One of the concerns we have about this is that

:06:25.:06:29.

we then set a target for the individual that needs that help to

:06:30.:06:35.

be taken to somewhere quickly rather than the right place for their

:06:36.:06:38.

needs. That is my concern that particular point. I do understand we

:06:39.:06:46.

have to balance all of these things but what I am after is that

:06:47.:06:51.

legislation should put pressure on agencies to provide sufficient

:06:52.:06:54.

resources to meet a clear need, as is not the case at the moment. I

:06:55.:06:59.

would conclude by saying that this group of amendments and new clauses

:07:00.:07:03.

is designed to improve the rights of people with mental ill-health who at

:07:04.:07:07.

the moment are too often let down by the system. I wish to address new

:07:08.:07:16.

clause 23. Very briefly. And take the Minister on a very small

:07:17.:07:19.

metaphorical journey, may be nowhere near as far as the amendment or new

:07:20.:07:26.

clause 23 seeks to go. I am sorry if I am trying the patience of the

:07:27.:07:29.

Minister and the House, because he has been exceptionally courteous

:07:30.:07:33.

today and to me in previous aspects of this bill. Let me just say what

:07:34.:07:40.

the mischief is about these face coverings. In my intervention

:07:41.:07:48.

earlier I mentioned to lack. One was the Conservative Party conference in

:07:49.:07:53.

Manchester and the other was in my constituency where two people in

:07:54.:07:58.

masks in the badger cull the Labor Department said a farmhouse as it

:07:59.:08:07.

was getting dark for several -- deliberately parked a car outside a

:08:08.:08:14.

farmhouse to intimidate those people. If the police had been able

:08:15.:08:20.

to ask the people to take off the masks the intimidation would have

:08:21.:08:31.

stopped on the spot. In those incidents, asking those people to

:08:32.:08:37.

take the masks offer would have stopped things. I want to simply say

:08:38.:08:51.

let's look at section 66 eight eight of the public order act which

:08:52.:08:56.

requires a constable on duty to require written consent before the

:08:57.:09:00.

mask is taken off. Can I just say where I am coming from? There are

:09:01.:09:05.

often what happens is they get on the radio and they get a verbal

:09:06.:09:08.

consent and then the written consent is given afterwards. Technically a

:09:09.:09:15.

crime is being committed because they haven't got prior written

:09:16.:09:19.

consent. I am saying let's do away with written consent. We train our

:09:20.:09:24.

constables to a high degree and put trust in them so let's trust them in

:09:25.:09:28.

the individual situation. If they think this masks are a problem, we

:09:29.:09:32.

should give them the power is to be able to demand those face masks are

:09:33.:09:39.

withdrawn immediately. It may be able to be done by secondary

:09:40.:09:49.

legislation. If he would do that I think we will have achieved what we

:09:50.:09:57.

want this afternoon. Can I move new clause 24 which stands in my name?

:09:58.:10:08.

And also refer to amendments in the name of the members for North

:10:09.:10:14.

Norfolk and Broxburn. Raised was the fact that the state's power to

:10:15.:10:17.

deprive someone of liberty is one of the most corneum acts of state there

:10:18.:10:26.

is. -- Draconian. In the Mental Health Act, if you are detained

:10:27.:10:32.

other than under section 135 or 136, you are entitled to a mental health

:10:33.:10:40.

advocates. Under section 135 and 136, you are not. The only way in

:10:41.:10:45.

which you could access legal advice, which is referred to in the

:10:46.:10:53.

Honourable member for Broxburn's amendment, as if you are at a police

:10:54.:10:59.

station. But they seem to want to stop people going to the police

:11:00.:11:04.

station in the first place because clearly a police cell is not the

:11:05.:11:07.

correct place for someone in mental health crisis. The important thing

:11:08.:11:12.

is that those individuals do need some advocacy. Under the situation

:11:13.:11:17.

we have currently, if they're not taken to a police cell or station,

:11:18.:11:24.

they will not have access to legal advice or advocacy. My amendment is

:11:25.:11:28.

trying to get some parity here in terms with the rest of the Mental

:11:29.:11:36.

Health Act. So people have advocacy. I am pleased that the Minister who

:11:37.:11:43.

responded to this in committee has taken a seat because it is an issue

:11:44.:11:49.

which she has looked at. I don't intend to press this to the vote but

:11:50.:11:54.

I think it is important we have some system in place where people are

:11:55.:12:01.

detained under section 135 and 136 can access some advice. I share the

:12:02.:12:10.

point made in the amendment from the member for North Norfolk, which I

:12:11.:12:16.

think is a similar thing in terms of individuals having access to an

:12:17.:12:22.

adult hooked advocate on their behalf. One thing which I do agree

:12:23.:12:33.

with the honourable member for hills on and Rowley Regis has said is many

:12:34.:12:43.

things in this bill are not necessarily the police's

:12:44.:12:46.

responsibility. In many cases they are filling a gap which has been

:12:47.:12:49.

there because of lack of funding or support or in some cases the

:12:50.:12:54.

disjunction which exists between mental health services, local

:12:55.:12:59.

authorities and others, and the police are seen as the last resort.

:13:00.:13:03.

He is right in highlighting that. That comes on to the point of new

:13:04.:13:10.

clause 26, in the name of the honourable member for Broxburn. I

:13:11.:13:15.

welcome this because I think there is good practice already in many

:13:16.:13:22.

police forces were they have mental health training. In Durham, the

:13:23.:13:25.

Chief Constable instigated a whole force review in terms of making

:13:26.:13:30.

people have access to mental health training. It is important to have

:13:31.:13:35.

consistency but it also empowers and gives more expertise to police

:13:36.:13:41.

forces to know how to actually use not just these two sections, one in

:13:42.:13:50.

three five and one to six, but other sections. Can I pay tribute to

:13:51.:13:55.

police forces up and down the country? I think there is good

:13:56.:13:59.

practice. In committee we referred to The Concordat, a good move

:14:00.:14:06.

forward ensuring there is a joined up at approach at local level

:14:07.:14:12.

between police forces and health services and local authorities. I

:14:13.:14:21.

know the Minister is perhaps exploring how we can get some

:14:22.:14:28.

agreement or reporting on what is actually happening at local level.

:14:29.:14:39.

Can I turn to new clause 40? I have to say the member for North Norfolk

:14:40.:14:43.

is doing a great service by putting this amendment down because this is

:14:44.:14:48.

is not being talked about. I totally agree. There is no circumstance

:14:49.:14:53.

which I envisage where you need to use a Taser on a mental health ward.

:14:54.:15:07.

The honourable member praised the Black Mental Health Uk who have done

:15:08.:15:13.

a lot of work on this issue. What struck me is that something has to

:15:14.:15:24.

be done because there is no mathematical conclusion you can come

:15:25.:15:30.

to that people from black and Afro-Caribbean communities are being

:15:31.:15:36.

disproportionately detained to any other section of the community. It

:15:37.:15:40.

cannot just be chance that these figures are happening. I would urge

:15:41.:15:45.

the Government to look at this seriously in terms of trying to ask

:15:46.:15:49.

how we can put things in place to ensure that is not the case. The

:15:50.:16:03.

other amendment, new clause 40 three. If we will not have

:16:04.:16:09.

prohibition on use of lasers, I would agree with this amendment so

:16:10.:16:12.

at least we would have statistics to say when and where they are being

:16:13.:16:17.

used. I refer to new clause 50 eight. A similar amendment that I

:16:18.:16:25.

put down in committee. It is a concern I have. Can I credit the

:16:26.:16:29.

Government in its efforts for trying to ensure that people in mental

:16:30.:16:33.

health crises do not end up in police cells? Unless we have very

:16:34.:16:39.

close monitor reporting that may be a position where you get people

:16:40.:16:45.

under section 135 or 136... And can I say to the honourable

:16:46.:16:57.

gentleman, isn't it remarkable how far this house has come in the last

:16:58.:17:01.

four years that today we are putting the interest of mental health

:17:02.:17:04.

patients at the centre of what we are discussing and he should take

:17:05.:17:09.

great credit for that personally. I would also credit the honourable

:17:10.:17:12.

gentleman as well as many other people in the house because credit

:17:13.:17:16.

to the government, they have taken the issue very seriously and I think

:17:17.:17:21.

both ministers on the committee are committed to ensuring that we get

:17:22.:17:25.

the best outcomes for people in mental health crisis in the criminal

:17:26.:17:34.

justice system. Can I just say that although we have a situation where

:17:35.:17:38.

the police cells will not be the first resort, which I think they

:17:39.:17:42.

have been in the past, and that is no criticism to the police were

:17:43.:17:46.

taking people there because that was the only place available and we need

:17:47.:17:51.

to closely monitor what happens to people who are detained under

:17:52.:17:56.

section 135 and 136 of this act because I would not want to get into

:17:57.:17:59.

a position where the de facto position is to keep people at home,

:18:00.:18:05.

which might help the statistics of avoiding people going into police

:18:06.:18:08.

cells, but will not be the best place possible for individuals in

:18:09.:18:14.

crisis. What we do need, and The Right Honourable member for

:18:15.:18:19.

Halesowen and Raleigh Regis raised it, it doesn't necessarily have to

:18:20.:18:25.

be a health -- health facility. We need, in this country, a network of

:18:26.:18:33.

place of safety for individuals in mental health crisis and they may be

:18:34.:18:37.

health run and they may be run by charities or others but we need that

:18:38.:18:41.

network because a police cell, and in some cases I don't even think a

:18:42.:18:45.

hospital is the best place for certain people in crisis. Can I

:18:46.:18:49.

finish by saying that I am glad that the changes that are being made in

:18:50.:18:54.

this bill and they are being taken seriously by the government, can I

:18:55.:18:58.

also pay tribute to the way in which both ministers have addressed this

:18:59.:19:02.

in committee and I know that although things are perhaps not

:19:03.:19:06.

going to be put on the face of the bill, working with colleagues at the

:19:07.:19:09.

Department of Health, I think we will get to a situation where people

:19:10.:19:15.

with mental health crises do not actually end up in the criminal

:19:16.:19:17.

justice system because that should be our aim. You caught me by

:19:18.:19:28.

surprise, I must confess. Thank you for the opportunity, it is a

:19:29.:19:30.

pleasure to follow my honourable friend from North Durham. I will not

:19:31.:19:35.

be making reference to the mental health policies and arrangements

:19:36.:19:37.

within this bill but I commend the colleagues who have spoken already

:19:38.:19:42.

in this debate and who have been personally responsible for taking

:19:43.:19:47.

this issue so far, and encourages a government to listen to the

:19:48.:19:50.

arguments that they have been putting forward four years and I

:19:51.:19:54.

commend the government on its response to the debate which

:19:55.:19:58.

obviously took place you can see and generally in its attitude towards

:19:59.:20:03.

mental health. I want to commend my right honourable friend, the Shadow

:20:04.:20:06.

Home Secretary, in the way that he moved his amendments almost in

:20:07.:20:14.

conclusion as part of the campaign on Hillsborough, passionately and

:20:15.:20:17.

powerfully, and I hope that the government will be in their position

:20:18.:20:21.

to respond positively to his request for his amendments to be accepted,

:20:22.:20:25.

if only in principle. I look forward to the Minister making a response

:20:26.:20:32.

when he response to this debate. I only want to speak very briefly to

:20:33.:20:40.

new clause 48 and new schedule one. These clauses propose to recreate a

:20:41.:20:45.

national Fire Service inspectorate in England. It is a recreation of a

:20:46.:20:50.

national Fire Service Inspectorate. My friend, the minister, the former

:20:51.:20:54.

firefighter, like I, when we exchange of brigade matters he

:20:55.:20:59.

sometimes throws back at me when I asked him to do things that I didn't

:21:00.:21:03.

do them when I was Fire Minister and why should he do them? I am asking

:21:04.:21:08.

him why he is recreating the Fire Service Inspectorate when we did

:21:09.:21:11.

away with it and put other arrangements in place and I would be

:21:12.:21:14.

very interested in what the explanation for that will be. But I

:21:15.:21:20.

welcome, as has the honourable member for Bromley and Chislehurst,

:21:21.:21:23.

that the government is recognising that there is a vacuum there, Gap,

:21:24.:21:27.

and something has to be created to fill it, whether it is the

:21:28.:21:31.

Inspectorate, as laid down in the wording of the amendments as they

:21:32.:21:34.

stand at the moment or whether they are changed as it goes to the house

:21:35.:21:37.

of Lords, the fact that the government is moving in this

:21:38.:21:42.

direction is welcome. As we discussed in Westminster Hall last

:21:43.:21:47.

week with the Minister, the increasingly, the increasing number

:21:48.:21:50.

of calls from flooding that the Fire Service deals with, the transition

:21:51.:21:56.

into more medical emergency calls, and the arrangements within the

:21:57.:21:59.

national Health Service to do more social care visits, along with fire

:22:00.:22:03.

safety visits, demonstrates that the Fire Service is moving into

:22:04.:22:05.

different territory and different skills have been developed which

:22:06.:22:09.

need different resources as well as the staff to do them. As I raced in

:22:10.:22:14.

the Westminster Hall debate last week, there are criticisms being

:22:15.:22:18.

levelled at the service at the moment, some of which are being

:22:19.:22:23.

blamed for the level of reductions in the service. The Fire and Rescue

:22:24.:22:27.

Service is a victim of its success in recent decades, having cut the

:22:28.:22:31.

number of calls on the number of fires and reduce the number of

:22:32.:22:35.

deaths in city centres, it means it is prone to be able to see the loss

:22:36.:22:42.

of fire stations and fire of prices and as the Minister knows the

:22:43.:22:45.

figures that I quoted in Westminster Hall last week mean there are nearly

:22:46.:22:50.

7000 fewer firefighters in position in the UK now than there were in

:22:51.:22:56.

2010 and that has raised a number of eyebrows and question marks about

:22:57.:22:57.

attendance times being met and resources being available and asking

:22:58.:23:04.

whether the service is now equipped to do the job that it needs to do. I

:23:05.:23:11.

am happy to give way. I thank the honourable gentleman who has great

:23:12.:23:14.

experience in the Fire and Rescue Service in a number of capacities.

:23:15.:23:18.

Does he agree with me that although the operational issues which he is

:23:19.:23:22.

quite rightly raising a very important, that the Public Accounts

:23:23.:23:25.

Committee found that in the wake of the abolition of the audit

:23:26.:23:28.

commission, the governance and scrutiny and oversight of so many

:23:29.:23:32.

Fire And Rescue Services and the cosy relationship between the

:23:33.:23:36.

authorities and those services were unsatisfactory in terms of value for

:23:37.:23:40.

the taxpayer pound? I do agree with the honourable gentleman as it was

:23:41.:23:44.

the same point raised by the honourable member for Bromley and

:23:45.:23:47.

Chislehurst and there is the argument that the Minister will be

:23:48.:23:50.

putting forward and we will be helping the government that there

:23:51.:23:53.

needs to be something put in place to be able to make the measurements

:23:54.:23:58.

that he refers to. Having said all of that I am curious about the

:23:59.:24:03.

lateness of the arrival of the amendments and I know the Minister

:24:04.:24:08.

referred very positively in his opening comments about the consents

:24:09.:24:11.

and is in committee and the ability of both sides helping each other out

:24:12.:24:17.

to make progress in the bill and I commend my honourable friend for

:24:18.:24:26.

West Ham because she was arguing the case about having something in place

:24:27.:24:28.

to assess the ability of the Fire Service to carry out the functions

:24:29.:24:31.

that we all want to see it doing and it is to the Minister's that he has

:24:32.:24:34.

brought forward the amendment and the new schedule to address a

:24:35.:24:37.

particular issue. I did mention intervention earlier a curiosity

:24:38.:24:44.

about whether the government had looked at the UK service as a

:24:45.:24:52.

potential vehicle to try and carry out the kind of function that has

:24:53.:24:56.

been proposed year. My memory of when I was in the fire Brigade with

:24:57.:25:03.

13 years as an operational firefighter, I did possess a pate in

:25:04.:25:07.

Her Majesty Inspectorate drilled in the fire station and I have to

:25:08.:25:10.

question the value of them. We tried for weeks and weeks to get them

:25:11.:25:13.

right. They still didn't go right entirely sometimes, but we question

:25:14.:25:18.

the actual value of that amount of rehearsal and whether or not the

:25:19.:25:23.

practice actually basically made the whole exercise worthless, so the

:25:24.:25:31.

question is, having decided to abolish the HMS -- the HMI, because

:25:32.:25:37.

of scepticism and cynicism, the honourable member referred to the

:25:38.:25:42.

old boys network, the government is trying to propose something new, I

:25:43.:25:46.

hope, although what is being proposed is a re-creation of what

:25:47.:25:52.

went before. Having gone to DC LG and having moved back to the Home

:25:53.:25:55.

Office, there seems to be a replication of Her Majesty 's

:25:56.:25:58.

Inspectorate of police and Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of prisons

:25:59.:26:01.

service and we don't get Her Majesty 's Inspectorate of fire so I would

:26:02.:26:05.

be interested in listening mode to the Minister and more to debates on

:26:06.:26:09.

the other place. I hope it will get more scrutiny and confidence in the

:26:10.:26:17.

Fire Service has always been high and it is high but it needs

:26:18.:26:20.

professional underpinning and validation, not only for public

:26:21.:26:24.

confidence and value for money but also for the safety of the

:26:25.:26:27.

firefighters on the front line who put themselves on that line to

:26:28.:26:30.

protect the public. I look forward to more expensive -- extensive

:26:31.:26:35.

debate when this goes to the other place and I look forward to some

:26:36.:26:39.

comments from the Minister when he sums up because this is a positive

:26:40.:26:43.

step forward and we need to make sure that the Fire Service can

:26:44.:26:47.

demonstrate, to its own satisfaction, to our satisfaction,

:26:48.:26:50.

and to the public that it is equipped resourced unable to do the

:26:51.:26:54.

job that we all admire it for doing and we wanted to carry on doing in

:26:55.:27:00.

the future. First of all, may I apologise, although I was here for

:27:01.:27:02.

the opening speech from the Minister, had to go and check

:27:03.:27:06.

delegated legislation and you were kind enough to put me on the panel

:27:07.:27:10.

of chairs, so I am sorry that I have not been president for whole debate.

:27:11.:27:15.

I want to speak to new clause 23 which was so ably moved by my

:27:16.:27:19.

honourable and learn it friend for Harborough. I understand that this

:27:20.:27:23.

amendment will not be pushed to a tonight and I understand that there

:27:24.:27:29.

is going to a review under Pace and I understand that the Minister has

:27:30.:27:33.

listened carefully to all of the arguments that have been made and if

:27:34.:27:37.

we are going to have a review I think there is an opportunity, and I

:27:38.:27:43.

want to use my brief remarks to talk about this, there is an opportunity

:27:44.:27:49.

to have a debate in this country about face coverings are generally.

:27:50.:27:53.

I think that many people in our country feel that this is quite

:27:54.:28:02.

un-British and except in exceptional services -- circumstances is not

:28:03.:28:07.

necessary for any reason. I don't want to suggest that we should take

:28:08.:28:13.

heavy-handed universal action to prevent people from covering their

:28:14.:28:16.

face in this country because I think that it is also in a sense

:28:17.:28:25.

un-British but actually what we believe in fundamentally, as a

:28:26.:28:28.

nation, is the freedom of people to live their lives, for whatever

:28:29.:28:33.

reason, in the way that they want, as long as they don't alarm or

:28:34.:28:40.

intimidate other people, and I know that other countries in Europe, for

:28:41.:28:44.

instance of France, Belgium, I believe, perfectly moderate and

:28:45.:28:48.

sensible and freedom loving countries, have decided to ban face

:28:49.:28:52.

coverings in public and I think that is probably not the way they would

:28:53.:28:56.

want to proceed here but what I do believe is that if we are going to

:28:57.:28:59.

have this review, it is an opportunity to have a debate and I

:29:00.:29:04.

certainly follow my honourable friends who have expressed concern

:29:05.:29:13.

about certain situations where people do feel intimidated. It might

:29:14.:29:20.

be in the environs of a hunt or an animal research laboratory, or it

:29:21.:29:26.

might be in the environs of a demonstration outside here, people

:29:27.:29:30.

are, of course, entitled to demonstrate, nobody denies that, but

:29:31.:29:33.

it is very intimidating for the police and the public to see people

:29:34.:29:38.

who are engaged in demonstrations with any kind of face covering, and

:29:39.:29:43.

I understand it is perfectly possible under present arrangements

:29:44.:29:48.

for the authorities to issue written instructions and that the police

:29:49.:29:51.

Council can actually require you to remove your face covering and all of

:29:52.:29:54.

the rest of it but I would like to go further. The way I suggest to

:29:55.:29:59.

this problem is that it should be the right, certainly of a police

:30:00.:30:05.

constable, in a particular situation that could be threatening or

:30:06.:30:11.

intimidate three or violent, or confrontational on both sides, to

:30:12.:30:14.

require somebody to remove the face covering. I also think it should be

:30:15.:30:21.

possible for a chief counsel to do so and they should lay down general

:30:22.:30:25.

prohibitions against face coverings. I also think it should be possible,

:30:26.:30:30.

and I think there should be a public debate about this and I think there

:30:31.:30:34.

are different points of view, it should be possible for the Home

:30:35.:30:39.

Secretary to issue a ban against face coverings in certain situations

:30:40.:30:44.

or in geographical places that are particularly sensitive, for

:30:45.:30:46.

instance, the central areas of the city is the and Westminster, the

:30:47.:30:52.

central part of our capital city, which is sensitive for all sorts of

:30:53.:30:59.

reasons, or in hospitals, schools, law courts, doctors surgeries. I

:31:00.:31:04.

know that not everybody in the house will agree with this but I do think

:31:05.:31:09.

that it is something that many people in the public are concerned

:31:10.:31:15.

about. Nobody is more pro-religious people than myself, nobody is

:31:16.:31:22.

wanting to do more to defend the right of religious people or any

:31:23.:31:26.

other sort of people to dress in anyway they want to, but I do think

:31:27.:31:30.

that there are certain situations, certain parts of the country,

:31:31.:31:35.

certain public places where the public, as a whole, although they

:31:36.:31:42.

are very tolerant of other people's attitudes, way of life and living,

:31:43.:31:45.

don't like the idea of face coverings.

:31:46.:31:49.

That's all I want to say. I hope the Minister will be open-minded about

:31:50.:32:01.

this and he may wish to comment on what I have said when he sums up. It

:32:02.:32:09.

is a real privilege to the summing up this set of amendments in this

:32:10.:32:17.

group. Can I thank the shadow police Minister for giving me some time to

:32:18.:32:22.

smack he could easily have spoken again to the amendments. I am

:32:23.:32:26.

pleased to have a little bit of time to talk through some of these

:32:27.:32:29.

things. I have given some indications during my interventions

:32:30.:32:34.

to honourable colleagues and right honourable colleagues in the House

:32:35.:32:44.

as I've gone through. Can I speak a little bit to do with comments made

:32:45.:32:55.

by my honourable friend for Bromley? I think he was brutally honest when

:32:56.:33:01.

he said he would like to have done this when he was the Minister. And

:33:02.:33:10.

my other former colleague was the Minister and a firefighter. We must

:33:11.:33:17.

learn by mistakes, and we all make mistakes in life. It will not be an

:33:18.:33:25.

old boys' network. It will be based around Her Majesty 's Royal

:33:26.:33:29.

Constabulary. They will not have weeks to practice escape drills,

:33:30.:33:34.

like I remember vividly when I was in the job. Those were the old

:33:35.:33:45.

ladders and big wheels. They will have the powers to bring in experts

:33:46.:33:53.

fit for the inspections. I think that is important. I think the

:33:54.:34:00.

inspector should not be an ex-chief fire officer from somewhere, similar

:34:01.:34:05.

to what we had before. I know that will put a few ruffles in the

:34:06.:34:12.

network. The person coming in asking the question up of why can bring in

:34:13.:34:21.

expertise. At committee, this was raised. I had only been in the job

:34:22.:34:29.

two weeks when we started talking about this. It was a very new role.

:34:30.:34:34.

I knew what I wanted to be able to do. The Home Secretary knew. And a

:34:35.:34:41.

little bit of encouragement from the shadow minister has helped us on our

:34:42.:34:49.

way. There will be areas where we can work closer with Constabulary

:34:50.:34:53.

around the way they do their inspections. Can I speak also to

:34:54.:35:04.

some of the Government amendments which I haven't had the opportunity

:35:05.:35:09.

to talk about earlier? And also some of the excellent contributions

:35:10.:35:16.

during. One of the most important amendments or agreements I have

:35:17.:35:21.

agreed to with the Home Secretary's permission is around the 12 month

:35:22.:35:25.

rule for officers who have retired or left the force. It always struck

:35:26.:35:33.

me as strange long before I came into this that, criminal proceedings

:35:34.:35:39.

apart, there was an investigation within the police force, no matter

:35:40.:35:50.

what rank you work, and in some cases I have a duty of actually

:35:51.:35:55.

signing pension documents which actually revoke police officers'

:35:56.:36:00.

pensions, they have broken the rules so badly they lose their pension. I

:36:01.:36:04.

signed those quite regularly. It is very difficult when you're signing

:36:05.:36:08.

something which actually is going to really dramatically change their

:36:09.:36:14.

future. I do not do that lightly. I often quiz my officials and ask

:36:15.:36:25.

about it. The rules are quite specific. In this area, while we

:36:26.:36:32.

didn't want to leave... I know that Shadow Home Secretary understands.

:36:33.:36:44.

We did think is real opportunity on behalf of Hillsborough... I hope as

:36:45.:36:58.

indicated by the shadow front bench and other parties, they work with us

:36:59.:37:01.

on those regulations because they will be one of the biggest legacies.

:37:02.:37:06.

I'm sorry that in two areas we don't quite agree with the opposition. The

:37:07.:37:18.

area around Levenson two. And I am categorically not saying it is not

:37:19.:37:21.

going to happen but no decision will be made until after the... It is

:37:22.:37:37.

above my pay grade. I will give way. I am grateful to the Minister for

:37:38.:37:41.

giving way. I don't want to compete with the Scottish Nationalists in

:37:42.:37:45.

offering to be honest broker but could he say that when the cases are

:37:46.:37:51.

concluded the Government will reaffirm their commitment to go to

:37:52.:38:01.

level as in two. -- Leveson two. We will wait for the enquiries and

:38:02.:38:08.

proceedings to finish and then we will announce the situation. I am

:38:09.:38:19.

grateful. He made the position clear but in making it clear he wanted --

:38:20.:38:34.

want please... Can he be clear that the position he outlined as a

:38:35.:38:38.

weakening of the Government position? The Government promised a

:38:39.:38:45.

stage two. That is up in the area now. Can we be clear this is a

:38:46.:38:48.

weakening of the Government's position? There is no weakening our

:38:49.:38:54.

change. We will wait for the conclusions. We have, all the way

:38:55.:39:04.

through this, and I have to accept the shadow sick troop of state's

:39:05.:39:13.

view, but no Home Secretary has gone further further victims of

:39:14.:39:17.

Hillsborough than this one. We will wait till after the conclusion of

:39:18.:39:21.

the criminal cases. The other area on which we disagree I think is a

:39:22.:39:31.

shame but I also respect the view of others in the House and if we have

:39:32.:39:34.

to do go through the lobbies we will. A review is underway and we

:39:35.:39:42.

will not pre-empt what is said in the review. There are assumptions

:39:43.:39:48.

which will be in it, right and wrong. Whatever happens, it does not

:39:49.:39:58.

stop there. If we win in the division, we will still wait for the

:39:59.:40:04.

conclusions of the investigation and the court cases and we will still

:40:05.:40:11.

wait for Bishop James. I think I need to make a tiny bit of progress

:40:12.:40:18.

and then perhaps I will... I'll make it brief. Could I point out to him

:40:19.:40:26.

that the issue of parity, equality, legal funding at inquest with the

:40:27.:40:30.

police are represented goes beyond Hillsborough because it affects many

:40:31.:40:33.

families fighting many injustices so it is beyond the Bishop James work.

:40:34.:40:41.

Could we at least have a commitment to work with us to seek that parity

:40:42.:40:44.

and the quality of legal funding at inquest? If that commitment is

:40:45.:40:50.

given, that would mean something. All the way through we have worked

:40:51.:40:55.

with Her Majesty's opposition and we have done everything we can. I

:40:56.:41:00.

slightly disagree and this may be semantics but the work that Bishop

:41:01.:41:04.

James will do will make a huge difference for cases going forward

:41:05.:41:07.

because of the experiences of what these people have gone through for

:41:08.:41:13.

the last 27 years. It is not just about Hillsborough. Bishop James's

:41:14.:41:19.

review would get guidance to government, whatever colour that

:41:20.:41:22.

government is. That is why we wait for all the recommendations for

:41:23.:41:30.

the... From the review. I think on this particular one perhaps we can

:41:31.:41:37.

come to ground. We will continue to work together beyond this debate

:41:38.:41:40.

this afternoon, no matter what the faults are because it is the most

:41:41.:41:47.

important thing to be done. -- votes. Can I speak about the

:41:48.:41:54.

conclusions around mental health. The Foreign Minister and the member

:41:55.:42:00.

for North Durham and committee talked about this extensively. As a

:42:01.:42:05.

former disability is minister, I had long meetings are very fruitful

:42:06.:42:10.

meetings with the former mental health Minister in the Coalition

:42:11.:42:17.

Government, and we agreed about 90%. Many changes to the way the police

:42:18.:42:23.

are dealing and looking after people with mental health issues is because

:42:24.:42:26.

of the work the member for North Norfolk did in his time as a

:42:27.:42:30.

minister. He pushed the Department for health to places at times the

:42:31.:42:42.

did not want to go. There are things that are still fundamentally wrong

:42:43.:42:45.

in the 21st-century. As my honourable friend said earlier on,

:42:46.:42:51.

my heart tells me that the use of a Taser within a secure mental health

:42:52.:42:57.

facility must be wrong. But my brain and my experience tells me, in

:42:58.:43:01.

exceptional circumstances it must not be the norm but in exceptional

:43:02.:43:09.

circumstances... I have met several of the lobbyists who have campaigned

:43:10.:43:13.

hard on this and my colleague will take the work forward on this. I

:43:14.:43:24.

think we are in a wheelie exciting position that instead of the police

:43:25.:43:30.

being the place you went, and not just about mental health but social

:43:31.:43:35.

services as well, particularly to do with children, and I have been with

:43:36.:43:48.

police long before I got this role. The constables were given notes from

:43:49.:43:55.

the Sergeant, would we go and visit Mary or John because social services

:43:56.:43:58.

have said they haven't actually seen them for a couple of days and these

:43:59.:44:02.

are vulnerable people and you have a duty? Sorry, social services had

:44:03.:44:08.

that duty first. We must be the last resort. I use the word we because I

:44:09.:44:16.

am passionate. Police cannot be the first port of call. The work in the

:44:17.:44:21.

last couple of years to do with street triage particularly, and

:44:22.:44:25.

different ways this is done around the country, but Street triaged

:44:26.:44:33.

transformed the amount of 135 and 136 done. Can I touch on this? Went

:44:34.:44:50.

a 135 -- a 135136 is an arrest. It is not being sectioned, they are

:44:51.:44:55.

arrested. The power is to protect and arrest. That is something we

:44:56.:44:59.

need to make clear. In different parts of the country we have seen

:45:00.:45:06.

different uses of 135. They have massively dropped, particularly 136.

:45:07.:45:11.

That is because of work done but more needs to be done. We are in a

:45:12.:45:16.

position to drive this forward. Frankly, we have said enough is

:45:17.:45:21.

enough. I understand many of the amendments. Particularly on use of

:45:22.:45:32.

lasers. -- Tasers. They have saved lives but I understand the risks

:45:33.:45:42.

alluded to. I used to do voluntary work in a mental health hospital

:45:43.:45:48.

before and during the time I was in the Army because my mother worked as

:45:49.:45:52.

a mental health nurse. I asked, is there a case where you would have to

:45:53.:45:58.

use this sort of force? She is retired now. She said to me, sadly,

:45:59.:46:02.

in exceptional circumstances. She emphasised the quality of training

:46:03.:46:08.

within mental health facilities as to how you could restrain someone

:46:09.:46:13.

safely. I'm sure I heard him right but just to confirm, what he is

:46:14.:46:19.

saying is that ministers will work with interested parties, myself, the

:46:20.:46:23.

honourable gentleman for North Norfolk, to ensure the recording of

:46:24.:46:27.

these incidents is much better and the reporting is much better and we

:46:28.:46:31.

will be able to report the progress back to the House periodically,

:46:32.:46:33.

perhaps through letters in the library.

:46:34.:46:38.

I fight my honourable friend for that intervention but that is the

:46:39.:46:44.

point I was trying to get to. If we devolve these powers down we give

:46:45.:46:48.

more and more powers to the PCCs then they should really know what is

:46:49.:46:52.

going on in their part of the world and that should be there and

:46:53.:46:55.

available for the public, it should not be a pay, it should be there to

:46:56.:47:00.

be received. It will take more work and I am delegating more work to my

:47:01.:47:04.

colleagues on the Treasury bench at the moment. It is not just the Home

:47:05.:47:13.

Office. Someone said earlier on that this really should not be in the

:47:14.:47:15.

bill and actually probably should've been years ago but it needed to be

:47:16.:47:24.

in this bill. In the monitoring of the use of Tasers, ensure that we

:47:25.:47:32.

look at the ethnic dimension of on whom they are used and that it is

:47:33.:47:38.

publicly available, so there is transparency there. I think it is

:47:39.:47:42.

vitally important because one of the points that I know my colleagues

:47:43.:47:45.

have had in their discussions and one of the issues around when I was

:47:46.:47:53.

the disability Minister is the disproportionate experience of black

:47:54.:47:57.

men being Tasered in facilities and there was a disproportionately high

:47:58.:48:00.

number of black men in mental health facilities and we all know there is

:48:01.:48:03.

a disproportionately high prevalence of black men in prisons and the

:48:04.:48:07.

criminal justice system. It is not something we can just say, it is

:48:08.:48:11.

something we need to do something about. The educational standards and

:48:12.:48:16.

the aspirations and whether or not. The other issue that the right

:48:17.:48:20.

Honourable gentleman race which was rightly important is that where

:48:21.:48:23.

someone has been abused, whether it be sexual or in other ways, we

:48:24.:48:27.

should make sure we get the right care to them early on. Don't assume,

:48:28.:48:31.

of course, that it would show up in that first medical analysis. I know

:48:32.:48:39.

from friends with post-traumatic stress and I had friends for many

:48:40.:48:44.

years ago in the Falklands who are only showing those signs now. If he

:48:45.:48:50.

doesn't accept the memo that there should be an automatic referral and

:48:51.:48:53.

I absolutely accept that things made show up later on, will he accept, in

:48:54.:48:57.

accordance with what The Children's Society is saying, that the

:48:58.:49:00.

government should be very clear that it should be the standard process

:49:01.:49:05.

that a child is always referred to an assessment of their mental health

:49:06.:49:10.

needs? I am probably stepping way beyond my portfolio but as a father

:49:11.:49:16.

I really think that if you are assessing a child that has been

:49:17.:49:20.

abused, how can you not assess them for their mental health damage that

:49:21.:49:23.

may have been occurred? I think it is something that is a natural thing

:49:24.:49:26.

to do and I will probably get shot for that but probably at the end of

:49:27.:49:29.

the day and is a moral position that is where we need but how that is

:49:30.:49:34.

done is for the right honourable gentleman's former Department and it

:49:35.:49:39.

is something. Can I move, Mr Deputy Speaker, if I can, to the area

:49:40.:49:45.

around facial coverings. The particular part of the bill which

:49:46.:49:54.

was clause 23, my honourable friend from market harbour and several of

:49:55.:49:58.

his colleagues, I think we have come to a bit of a consensus about where

:49:59.:50:07.

to be on this. I arranged that the lead on this within the police and

:50:08.:50:11.

the whole country, and very unusually, really very unusually, a

:50:12.:50:15.

senior police officer said, don't give me any more powers., I am happy

:50:16.:50:23.

with the powers that we have got. What they said in the meetings that

:50:24.:50:26.

we had, and I are happy to share with the house, is that the way the

:50:27.:50:29.

legislation is being interpreted through guidance is an issue. I

:50:30.:50:35.

think there is also some confusion about the powers of under 68 a of

:50:36.:50:43.

the act which is written authority and the truth is that they go on to

:50:44.:50:46.

their radios and immediately say this is the situation and I want to

:50:47.:50:49.

remove it, I think an offence will take place and it is of it instantly

:50:50.:50:53.

given and it is signed later on and it is not breaking any law and it is

:50:54.:50:57.

exactly how the procedure works on a daily basis. However the Home

:50:58.:51:01.

Secretary and I both understand there is real concern as to whether

:51:02.:51:08.

or not it has been implemented in a way which has the confidence of the

:51:09.:51:12.

public as well as perhaps the police confidence. And rather than change

:51:13.:51:17.

the law against the advice that I am getting from the police, what we are

:51:18.:51:25.

going to propose to do is where we already have a pace a review coming

:51:26.:51:28.

forward, which doesn't happen very often, but we have it in this

:51:29.:51:33.

autumn, coming forward now with stop and search, and these powers are

:51:34.:51:37.

very similar when you think about them, to stop and search power, that

:51:38.:51:41.

we are going to ask through the review that these powers are added

:51:42.:51:47.

into that. That is, I think a very significant change and it alleviate

:51:48.:51:51.

some of the concerns but at the end of the day we need to make sure that

:51:52.:51:59.

we are giving the powers. Of course. I wouldn't want my right honourable

:52:00.:52:02.

friend to think I was I'm grateful for what he was suggesting, I would

:52:03.:52:05.

never do that or be that but it would not be very helpful if he were

:52:06.:52:10.

to be able to write to me setting out exactly what it is he is

:52:11.:52:15.

proposing and what are the likely amendments to Pace. He mentioned a

:52:16.:52:19.

review of Pace that he did not mention necessarily an amendment to

:52:20.:52:23.

the police and criminal evidence act so if he could be clearer in paper

:52:24.:52:28.

that would be very useful. I will write to the honourable gentleman

:52:29.:52:31.

and I will put a copy of the letter in the library of the house as well.

:52:32.:52:36.

There is a cross-party concern about some of these issues. This is

:52:37.:52:42.

specific to this regulation so I listened very carefully to my

:52:43.:52:46.

honourable friend and this is not part of the bill and as he said in

:52:47.:52:51.

his commentary it is for later. If he thinks I am fobbing it off into

:52:52.:52:55.

the long grass, the purpose of this Bill, that is exactly what I am

:52:56.:53:04.

doing. I think that the way that the debate has been dealt with today,

:53:05.:53:08.

some of the ways that I hope that both myself and my colleagues on the

:53:09.:53:12.

true committee and as we go into the true committee and as we go into the

:53:13.:53:17.

next group has helped this Bill progress in a way that has been

:53:18.:53:23.

positive. It is a long time since I have had the sort of encouragement

:53:24.:53:30.

in a bill, apart from one previous bill that I took a house with just a

:53:31.:53:35.

little bit of disagreement, but I am absolutely adamant that this bill,

:53:36.:53:40.

and amendments and new clauses and the patients in this Bill, will be a

:53:41.:53:44.

legacy for the Hillsborough families, and the campaign that they

:53:45.:53:49.

have brought forward for 27 years. I am sorry that we cannot agree on

:53:50.:53:53.

everything, as I have indicated, even if we disagree tonight, we will

:53:54.:53:57.

probably agree tomorrow, and with that in mind, Mr Deputy Speaker, I

:53:58.:54:05.

move these clauses. The question is that clause 28 the read a second

:54:06.:54:12.

time, as many of that opinion say I. The eyes have it. The question is

:54:13.:54:17.

should 48 be added to the bill? As many are of that opinion say Tasers

:54:18.:54:33.

three. The ayes have it. The question is that the government do

:54:34.:54:43.

schedule one and clause 30, as many of that say aye. The ayes have it.

:54:44.:54:50.

We now come to a new clause 60 three. The question is that new

:54:51.:55:00.

clause 63 be added to the bill, as many of that opinion say aye. The

:55:01.:55:07.

contrary, no. Division! Clear the lobbies!

:55:08.:56:53.

The question is... Sorry, new clause 60 three. An amendment to move the

:56:54.:57:01.

new clause formally. The question is that the amendment be added to the

:57:02.:57:02.

bill. Order. Order. The ayes to the right,

:57:03.:07:27.

155. The noes to the left, 264. Thank you. The eyes to the right,

:07:28.:07:39.

155. The noes to the left, 264. The noes habit. -- have it. We come to

:07:40.:07:55.

close 64. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:07:56.:07:56.

"no". Division. Clear the lobby. The question is that new clause

:07:57.:09:20.

64-bit added to the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To

:09:21.:09:21.

the contrary, "no".. . Order! Order! The ayes to the right,

:09:22.:18:41.

155. The noes to the left, 268. Thank you. The ayes to write, 155.

:18:42.:18:51.

The noes to the left, 268. The noes have it. Unlock. Right... Let's have

:18:52.:19:06.

a look. Minister to move government amendment 25 to 32, 31 to 61. 83 and

:19:07.:19:17.

14 to 17 formally. The question is that government amendment is 22 to

:19:18.:19:24.

30, 31 to 61, 88, 63 to 84 and 14 to 17 be made.

:19:25.:19:25.

As many as are of that opinion, say "aye".

:19:26.:19:27.

The ayes have it. Minister to move a new clauses 49 to 53 and government

:19:28.:19:44.

new schedule two, formally. The question is that government new

:19:45.:19:49.

clauses 49 to 53 and government new schedule two be added to the bill.

:19:50.:19:52.

As many as are of that opinion, say "aye".

:19:53.:19:54.

Minister to move government amendments 89 to 106, 109, 110, 117

:19:55.:20:16.

and 18 formally. The question is that government amendments 89 to 16,

:20:17.:20:20.

109, 110, 117 and one 18. As many as are of that

:20:21.:20:25.

opinion, say "aye". We now continue clause two on page

:20:26.:20:38.

55 of the amendment paper with which it would be convenient to consider

:20:39.:20:42.

other clauses and amendments listed on the selection paper. I now call

:20:43.:20:47.

Liz Saville Roberts to move the new clause two. I rise to speak to new

:20:48.:20:56.

clauses two, three, four and five and 44. I would like to say at this

:20:57.:21:00.

point that I intend to test the opinion of this house and call for a

:21:01.:21:09.

division on new clause two. The other four clauses are probing

:21:10.:21:12.

amendments to test the discussions made in the committee. I noticed the

:21:13.:21:17.

proposals made by the minister in the sport of localism that I would

:21:18.:21:21.

caution you rip -- cautiously proposed reminded that Wales is one

:21:22.:21:24.

of the formations of the United Kingdom, yet it is the only one that

:21:25.:21:28.

has no responsibility for police forces. Second-class nation. The

:21:29.:21:36.

governments of other nations are able to direct their police forces

:21:37.:21:40.

to work effectively in response to their needs but Wales must follow

:21:41.:21:45.

the policing priorities of England. The four police forces of Wales are

:21:46.:21:50.

unique within the UK in that they are non-default bodies operating

:21:51.:21:54.

within a largely devolved public services landscape. They are thus

:21:55.:21:59.

required to respond to the agendas of two governments and serve the

:22:00.:22:03.

nation whose people have the right to use either the English all the

:22:04.:22:09.

Welsh languages. It should be noted that the Assembly Budget already

:22:10.:22:20.

funds 90 extra PCS owns does he, like me, find it surprising that

:22:21.:22:26.

many other services including mental health devolved and it prohibits the

:22:27.:22:34.

coherence of public service in Wales if this is devolved. It is the very

:22:35.:22:40.

fact being answerable to two agendas which is the reason why I understand

:22:41.:22:45.

our colleagues in the National Assembly of Wales and also the four

:22:46.:22:50.

police and Crime Commissioners in Wales are calling out for of

:22:51.:22:55.

policing. What we are describing now is in a stark contrast to the

:22:56.:23:02.

position in Wales where power over policing is due to be devolved to

:23:03.:23:06.

the English city regions like Manchester and Liverpool. The

:23:07.:23:10.

present approach to devolution considering this fact, comparing

:23:11.:23:14.

Wales with the English city reasons, the present approach to devolution

:23:15.:23:20.

has been criticised in the House of Lords constitutional committee

:23:21.:23:24.

report as piecemeal and lacking a coherent vision. I would strongly

:23:25.:23:28.

argue that the devolution of policing of Wales would benefit the

:23:29.:23:32.

people of Wales they are ill served by the antiquated England and were

:23:33.:23:36.

arrangement which inevitably is designed with the priorities of

:23:37.:23:40.

English cities in mind. Our demographics are different in Wales.

:23:41.:23:46.

The need to maintain effective services in rural areas with

:23:47.:23:49.

scattered populations cries out for better consideration. The impact of

:23:50.:23:57.

tourism, where populations rocket and bank holidays and summer months

:23:58.:24:01.

stretches resources to the limit. One area in my constituency has a

:24:02.:24:06.

1000 year-round residents and yet North Wales Police have to deal with

:24:07.:24:11.

an influx of 20,000 visitors in the summer season. I went on patrol with

:24:12.:24:16.

officers last August and saw how drunken behaviour meant police

:24:17.:24:19.

officers have to focus behaviour -- attention on that one community,

:24:20.:24:22.

travelling hours back and forth along custody -- country rich to the

:24:23.:24:27.

nearest custody cells 20 miles away. The current arrangement of policing

:24:28.:24:31.

in England and where is dominated by English metropolitan concerns and

:24:32.:24:34.

fails to provide for the needs of Wales. I will give way. I am

:24:35.:24:41.

grateful to my honourable friend for giving way and the strong points she

:24:42.:24:44.

is making. Recently the UK Government brought forward a

:24:45.:24:47.

centralised service for helicopter services for police services in

:24:48.:24:50.

England and Wales. It didn't affect Scotland and Northern Ireland

:24:51.:24:54.

because there forces are decentralised. We lost our

:24:55.:24:59.

helicopter. The front bench in the government are smirking and this

:25:00.:25:02.

affects lives in my constituency. The police force in Dyfed Powys

:25:03.:25:07.

called out the helicopter over 40 occasions and only a handful of

:25:08.:25:14.

times the police came out. Order! Order!. Mr Edwards, this is if you

:25:15.:25:20.

wanted to speak you can speak that you cannot get carried away and

:25:21.:25:23.

speak to the Minister in that way. Keep it calm and any points you want

:25:24.:25:31.

to race there will be time to do so. The question of resources and how

:25:32.:25:34.

priorities direct them highlights again the fact that Wales has

:25:35.:25:38.

different needs and those resources from central government do get

:25:39.:25:41.

directed into those priorities which best serve England. When devolution

:25:42.:25:47.

of policing of Wales was discussed at committee the minister referred

:25:48.:25:51.

to the Silk Commission in England and Wales which was established by

:25:52.:25:54.

his party as a minister was him at the time, in 2011, with cross-party

:25:55.:26:00.

membership. Part two was published in 2014 and recommended devolution.

:26:01.:26:04.

He made much at the time of the fact that there was no consensus on this

:26:05.:26:09.

recommendation as a result of the St David's Day process and powers for a

:26:10.:26:13.

purpose. Those involved in the process said it was little more than

:26:14.:26:26.

a tick box exercise. If all-party representatives liked it, the power

:26:27.:26:29.

was in the bag and if not, check it out, regardless of the implications

:26:30.:26:31.

for the government and needs and indeed people of Wales. I know that

:26:32.:26:33.

at committee labour indicated a grudging support for devolving

:26:34.:26:36.

policing, although in the distant future, ten years away. It seems

:26:37.:26:41.

pressure from Plaid Cymru is driving the accelerator. This is not a

:26:42.:26:44.

matter of jam tomorrow, we are living in hope of this today. This

:26:45.:26:50.

opportunity is before the house here and now and the contents of future

:26:51.:26:54.

legislation and future amendments lack this certainty. If this house

:26:55.:26:58.

votes for devolution today policing will be devolved to Wales and the

:26:59.:27:02.

government will then have to amend the Wales Bill

:27:03.:27:16.

accordingly, at the very start of its journey. Indeed, surely the

:27:17.:27:19.

Wales Bill deals first and foremost with constitutional matters, but

:27:20.:27:21.

here is our opportunity to make sure. I urge Labour to grasp the

:27:22.:27:24.

opportunity and support the National Assembly of Wales and all four

:27:25.:27:26.

Police and Crime Commissioners in Wales and support the devolution of

:27:27.:27:28.

policing today. I turn now to new clauses three and four and five,

:27:29.:27:31.

which relate to aspects of digital crime. I would know that these, and

:27:32.:27:35.

new clause 44, are probing amendments. The government states

:27:36.:27:39.

that resources are already provided to counter digital crime in the form

:27:40.:27:43.

of the national cyber unit. I would respond that the national side unit

:27:44.:27:48.

is relatively small and that the national cyber Security programme

:27:49.:27:51.

concentrates primarily on the security businesses and

:27:52.:27:55.

infrastructure. Action fraud addresses crime in relation to

:27:56.:28:00.

online fraud and the priorities here our business, financial and serious

:28:01.:28:04.

crime and it do not cover the safeguarding of victims of abuse

:28:05.:28:12.

crimes, such as domestic violence, stalking, harassment or hate crime.

:28:13.:28:14.

The first of these clauses proposes a review of legislation relating to

:28:15.:28:21.

digital crime and incorporate many acts into a single statute. Criminal

:28:22.:28:26.

justice professionals, including the police and the CPS believe it is

:28:27.:28:31.

confusing at best and overwhelming at worst. Victims complaints are

:28:32.:28:34.

sometimes subject to delay and there are times when officers are

:28:35.:28:38.

uncertain whether a specific activity is criminal or not. The law

:28:39.:28:43.

has developed incrementally as technology advances and there is an

:28:44.:28:48.

urgent need to codify and clarify the current situation. Consolidation

:28:49.:28:52.

will save police time and money and it will avoid duplication of

:28:53.:28:56.

officers on cases. Swift action on victims complaints will reduce

:28:57.:29:02.

stress and anxiety to those victims. As regards new clause four,

:29:03.:29:06.

surveillance and monitoring highlights further issues against

:29:07.:29:11.

which there is presently no address. The identification of these actions

:29:12.:29:15.

as offences will enable the police to counter activities which are

:29:16.:29:18.

evidently related to surveillance with attention to cause distress and

:29:19.:29:21.

the law should respond appropriately. New clause five

:29:22.:29:27.

addresses the need for training that is fit for purpose. Even in large

:29:28.:29:33.

police areas fewer than 5% of police officers and staff, including call

:29:34.:29:36.

and first response personnel are trained in cyber crime. Victims

:29:37.:29:40.

report being advised to go off-line and not use social media by

:29:41.:29:45.

officers. This defies modern communication media and is

:29:46.:29:48.

equivalent to telling victims of harassment not to venture outside

:29:49.:29:51.

their own homes. The Home Office believes that training is a matter

:29:52.:29:56.

for individual forces, but in the absence of strong central leadership

:29:57.:30:04.

it can only perpetuate present inconsistencies and variations from

:30:05.:30:07.

force to force. National training would help to raise the status of

:30:08.:30:12.

victims. Finally I would like to turn to new clause 44, which calls

:30:13.:30:16.

for the establishment of a specialist digital unit to

:30:17.:30:19.

investigate online offences against children and young people. As I

:30:20.:30:26.

mentioned earlier there was a real risk intrinsic independency of

:30:27.:30:29.

central units, although I acknowledge the work done by the

:30:30.:30:33.

Child exploitation Centre. Once again children's charities report to

:30:34.:30:36.

us that the scale of abuse of children online, in terms of

:30:37.:30:41.

offenders, devices and images, is leaving police swamped. There are

:30:42.:30:45.

delays in forensic analysis devices, delays in some cases of up to 12

:30:46.:30:50.

months. These delays pose a risk to the safeguarding of children. At

:30:51.:30:55.

committee the Minister mentioned the child abuse image database and

:30:56.:31:00.

praised the accuracy of imagery interpretation and how it aids

:31:01.:31:04.

identification. It is to be commended that the database will

:31:05.:31:06.

take some of the load from individual forces.

:31:07.:31:11.

I would argue there is a precedent for digital units on a par with

:31:12.:31:20.

domestic violence units. I will give way. I commend her on tabling these

:31:21.:31:29.

amendments. She talked about the idea of a specialist digital unit

:31:30.:31:33.

within each police force. Does she agree that it would be imperative if

:31:34.:31:38.

that were to happen that this would feedback to some central database to

:31:39.:31:41.

ensure the work done in those individual units was available

:31:42.:31:48.

across the country? We need the expertise of its central unit

:31:49.:31:57.

alongside. And we avoid the risk that a central unit's existence

:31:58.:32:08.

tends to encourage crimes to be seen as another's departments problem.

:32:09.:32:13.

Those amendments I chose to discuss and I would reiterate those are

:32:14.:32:19.

probing amendments. I would repeat my intention to push for a division

:32:20.:32:29.

on new clause two. New clause two, devolution and responsibility for

:32:30.:32:34.

policing. The question is that new clause two be read a second time. I

:32:35.:32:44.

rise to speak on new clauses three, four, five... I note she set her

:32:45.:32:51.

amendments out as probing amendments. Those five amendments

:32:52.:33:01.

tabled by Lib Dem and Plaid Cymru members. We all need to get our

:33:02.:33:07.

government and governments around the world to wake up to the extent

:33:08.:33:12.

to which crime and criminal activity has now moved online. All laws are

:33:13.:33:18.

not giving victims the protection they need and our police forces face

:33:19.:33:23.

a revolution if they are to tackle the crime that they face now

:33:24.:33:29.

effectively in the future. There has been a significant shift in the way

:33:30.:33:33.

people experience harm in this world. New clause 44 as the

:33:34.:33:39.

honourable lady already set out calls for police to have special

:33:40.:33:43.

digital units to look particularly at child abuse images. Many police

:33:44.:33:48.

forces in this country have gone a long way, including my own in

:33:49.:33:52.

Hampshire, to build up this sort of specialist expertise but I think the

:33:53.:33:57.

new clause in itself is an interesting piece of advice which I

:33:58.:34:01.

will be interested to hear the Minister's response to as well as

:34:02.:34:06.

the response from police training too. There are serious questions as

:34:07.:34:11.

to whether the providers of online space are doing what they need to do

:34:12.:34:17.

also keep their communities safe. They have not only a corporate

:34:18.:34:21.

social responsibility to do that but I also think an economic imperative

:34:22.:34:30.

because it is their brand names which are tarnished when their

:34:31.:34:34.

products are used for illegal purposes. I think there is another

:34:35.:34:38.

aspect, not particularly brought up in the amendments today but I will

:34:39.:34:46.

also mention the importance and international importations of these

:34:47.:34:50.

things. If we want a solution to the sorts of crimes committed online in

:34:51.:34:54.

this new digital world which does not respect county boundaries, we

:34:55.:35:04.

must have some by end -- buying in from international communities two.

:35:05.:35:14.

Perhaps we could look to the United Nations or the youth part of the

:35:15.:35:19.

United Nations to look at how we can get more effective laws in future

:35:20.:35:23.

that are not constricted by international boundaries. Our law is

:35:24.:35:29.

struggling to cope. These amendments recognise that there is a real need

:35:30.:35:33.

to recognise online crime is different. I think it is a battle

:35:34.:35:39.

that has been won when this government put in place the revenge

:35:40.:35:45.

pornography law a year or so ago. We have already seen thousands of

:35:46.:35:50.

people using the helpline and thousands of reports to police. Two

:35:51.:35:54.

thirds of cases reported to the police have seen no action because

:35:55.:35:57.

of Rob Holmes with evidence that victims have been able to give or

:35:58.:36:01.

even victims have withdrawn. These new clauses are picking up those

:36:02.:36:05.

issues and calling for the Government to consider again. New

:36:06.:36:11.

clause 46 calls for anonymity of victims, something considered at the

:36:12.:36:15.

time the law was put in place. The advice at that point was to wait and

:36:16.:36:20.

see how things progress. Statistics suggest now is a time to think

:36:21.:36:27.

again. The myriad of amendments here today show the level of complexity

:36:28.:36:41.

and concern across all parties. My concern is that the offer a

:36:42.:36:46.

piecemeal set of solutions. The honourable lady picked up on that.

:36:47.:36:52.

Surely what is needed is a wholesale review of the police training and

:36:53.:36:58.

development of international support for digital providers to take

:36:59.:37:00.

seriously the importance of keeping their communities safe online. I

:37:01.:37:05.

support the spirit of these amendments but I am struck by the

:37:06.:37:08.

need for a more comprehensive review. Perhaps in the form of the

:37:09.:37:15.

Digital economy Bill which Her Majesty announced in the speech last

:37:16.:37:24.

month... I'm grateful. She articulates a serious problem but

:37:25.:37:30.

does she also acknowledge that with some 70,000 cases of historic child

:37:31.:37:34.

abuse likely to be investigated by the police this year alone, with up

:37:35.:37:38.

to half of cases coming to the courts involving sexual explication,

:37:39.:37:45.

many of them historic, police are overwhelmed in their capacity to

:37:46.:37:49.

deal with this new wave of digital crime against some of the most

:37:50.:37:55.

vulnerable children? So the suggestion for an overview of this

:37:56.:38:01.

is essential. He has an impeccable record of campaigning in this area.

:38:02.:38:06.

What I would say to him is that perhaps the very nature of the scale

:38:07.:38:10.

of this problem as an indication we do not have the regulatory framework

:38:11.:38:20.

with -- within which to work for the future. We can't expect the police

:38:21.:38:24.

force to put down the work they do in every other area to solely focus

:38:25.:38:29.

on online crime. But at the moment he is right to say that the scale

:38:30.:38:34.

that is seen as, in the words of some Chiefs of police, frightening.

:38:35.:38:43.

We are not yet seeing a response to that and I hope the Digital economy

:38:44.:38:49.

Bill will provide ministers on the French ten -- on the front bench

:38:50.:38:56.

today... We can no longer say this is the by-product of a new industry

:38:57.:39:00.

which will settle down over time. I think the honourable members will

:39:01.:39:06.

have heard quite a good deal of evidence this evening to suggest

:39:07.:39:10.

more action must be taken and I would ask ministers to agree to sit

:39:11.:39:21.

down with me and other honourable members who might be interested to

:39:22.:39:24.

set out how the Digital economy act can be used as a vehicle to achieve

:39:25.:39:28.

the objective of making the Internet safer at home and abroad. I just

:39:29.:39:36.

want to say a few words in relation to new clause 13 and 14. New clause

:39:37.:39:46.

13 would make it an offence for adults to groom children and young

:39:47.:39:50.

people for criminal behaviour. New clause 14 would introduce a new

:39:51.:39:53.

grooming for criminal behaviour prevention order which I would call

:39:54.:40:07.

a Fagin order. We must recognise young people drawn into banality and

:40:08.:40:13.

good often been groomed and manipulated. Currently we have

:40:14.:40:19.

numerous prevention orders to combat grooming. Sexual risk orders, sexual

:40:20.:40:27.

harm prevention orders, child abduction warning notices. A bit

:40:28.:40:31.

like to see the creation of a similar order to be used when

:40:32.:40:34.

children are groomed by organise crime to act as drug runners. This

:40:35.:40:40.

would be a practical way of disrupting activities including the

:40:41.:40:43.

phenomenon of county lines in which cases criminals groom and question

:40:44.:40:50.

people into selling Class A drugs many miles from home. Organised

:40:51.:40:55.

crime is aggressively creating new markets for drugs in every seaside

:40:56.:40:59.

town and every small country village across the country. Criminals used

:41:00.:41:05.

to do their own drug running but now they are actively identifying groups

:41:06.:41:09.

of vulnerable children including those living in children's homes and

:41:10.:41:14.

pupil referral units to use and so minimise the risk to themselves.

:41:15.:41:20.

County lines is the next big grooming scandal and the horizon. It

:41:21.:41:27.

takes many forms but it's paces is using vulnerable children to develop

:41:28.:41:32.

new markets for drugs. One example so a 15-year-old girl offered ?500

:41:33.:41:37.

to go upcountry to sell drugs. She had Class A drugs planted inside but

:41:38.:41:48.

was set up by the original gang and assaulted and had the drugs forcibly

:41:49.:41:57.

removed. The threat of child sexual explication for girls in gangs is

:41:58.:42:01.

known but the added factor of being trafficked to remote locations

:42:02.:42:05.

compounds their vulnerability. These young people are at risk of

:42:06.:42:10.

physical, sexual violence and emotional and physical abuse. That

:42:11.:42:15.

model of grooming involves both trafficking and modern slavery.

:42:16.:42:19.

Children from greater Manchester are being groomed by criminal gangs and

:42:20.:42:23.

have been found selling drugs as far away as Devon. These gang members

:42:24.:42:30.

are like modern-day Fagins, hard men who groom youngsters to get them to

:42:31.:42:36.

do their dirty work. They must be stopped in their tracks. Are some

:42:37.:42:44.

reports said younger ones are often groomed for involvement in criminal

:42:45.:42:46.

behaviour and harmful sexual behaviour as part of gang culture.

:42:47.:42:51.

The most recent Rotherham trial showed a connection between

:42:52.:42:54.

organised crime and drugs and child sexual exploitation. I read the

:42:55.:42:58.

recent Home Office report and also the NCA report into county lines. I

:42:59.:43:09.

think this development is not fully understood or recognised. Someone

:43:10.:43:14.

needs to take ownership of a strategy to disrupt this aggressive

:43:15.:43:19.

organised network and the strategy needs to put the safeguarding of

:43:20.:43:25.

children first. I don't pretend that Fagin orders would be a silver

:43:26.:43:28.

bullet but they would indicate a change in culture and a recognition

:43:29.:43:33.

that the responsibility lies with the adults who groom their children.

:43:34.:43:37.

We can't afford to make the same mistakes as we did with child sexual

:43:38.:43:41.

explication when we let terrible things happen to children because we

:43:42.:43:45.

blamed them for bringing about their own exploitation. Child sexual

:43:46.:43:51.

exploitation, drug running and involvement with criminal activity

:43:52.:43:55.

are often intertwined which is why we need a two pronged approach. We

:43:56.:43:59.

should have similar prevention orders for adults grooming children

:44:00.:44:05.

for criminal behaviour. We must have a response to county lines which

:44:06.:44:10.

ensures children are found, safeguarded and supported out of

:44:11.:44:13.

gangs and that adults are stopped as early as possible from grooming and

:44:14.:44:16.

manipulating children and are varnished to the full extent of the

:44:17.:44:20.

law for their exploitation. Until then, it will continue to be the

:44:21.:44:25.

young victims who are exploited, blamed and punished as their abusers

:44:26.:44:30.

and puppet masters continue with a trade which nets organised crime

:44:31.:44:34.

millions of pounds per year. I am grateful. I stand to speak in

:44:35.:44:41.

support of new clauses 15, 16 and 18, which stand in mine and others'

:44:42.:44:52.

names. I want to add my voice to the honourable ladies. It is clear from

:44:53.:44:56.

the amendments in this legislation and elsewhere that the law is

:44:57.:44:58.

struggling with protecting children online. It is old, ineffective, it

:44:59.:45:05.

does not appreciate the dangers out there for children on the Internet.

:45:06.:45:10.

I sincerely hope that the right honourable member is right that the

:45:11.:45:16.

Digital economy Bill is used to increase the protection for Jordan

:45:17.:45:21.

online. Not least because part of the reason that we do not tackle

:45:22.:45:26.

this problem in the way that we should is because there is big money

:45:27.:45:31.

to be made here. This is a commercial enterprise, pumping this

:45:32.:45:35.

stuff into people's screens and computers across the country, if not

:45:36.:45:39.

the world. So there is a certain slot and idleness in the digital

:45:40.:45:44.

community in dealing with it. Technically we could switch this

:45:45.:45:49.

stuff off tonight. We have no problem stopping children getting

:45:50.:45:52.

into our bank accounts, stopping children from buying things on

:45:53.:45:58.

Amazon or whatever it might be. Yet children can easily access

:45:59.:46:03.

pornography, now, every day, 24 hours a day without any protection

:46:04.:46:05.

whatsoever, unless your parents intervene. That is a disgraceful

:46:06.:46:11.

state of affairs. From my point of view, we should use the digital

:46:12.:46:15.

economy point of view to create some kind of offence of living from

:46:16.:46:21.

immoral earnings for these Internet providers because that is what they

:46:22.:46:24.

are doing by turning a blind eye and not interrogating data coming

:46:25.:46:30.

through their pipes that is of that nature and effectively turning it

:46:31.:46:34.

off so that eyes below 18 cannot see it.

:46:35.:46:39.

We need to find some way to make them face up to their obligations. I

:46:40.:46:48.

have three children, two of whom are very small, and I feel as if I am in

:46:49.:46:52.

a daily fight for them with the media, whether it is TV, online. We

:46:53.:46:59.

ration carefully what they get and what they can seek and I hope to god

:47:00.:47:03.

that as they grow and become teenagers, I can protect them from

:47:04.:47:08.

the worst, but I need help from the government and those who control

:47:09.:47:11.

data and our access to the Internet. They can do it in any number of ways

:47:12.:47:17.

and should be forced to do it on pain of significant financial

:47:18.:47:21.

penalties. It is only when profits are threatened that they will

:47:22.:47:24.

finally focus and come up with the technical solutions we need. I would

:47:25.:47:32.

have liked to have added my name. I was out with a group of people

:47:33.:47:38.

recently and we went on stings the local newsagents and others buying

:47:39.:47:45.

illegal counterfeit discounted cigarettes, in many cases advertised

:47:46.:47:49.

by a phone number which we rang up. It could only have resulted in

:47:50.:47:56.

criminal activity. Just as he is making the case for prostitution

:47:57.:48:00.

which clearly can only lead to illegal activity, it is so easy for

:48:01.:48:05.

us to be able to use this phone numbers and those telephone

:48:06.:48:09.

companies should be taking greater responsibility. He brings me neatly

:48:10.:48:14.

on the new clause 16, which deals exactly with this. I know you have

:48:15.:48:22.

been an aficionado of my political career so you will know that 15

:48:23.:48:29.

years ago, I was charged with getting rid of prostitutes's carton

:48:30.:48:35.

telephone boxes. It was costing Westminster Council ?250,000 a year

:48:36.:48:39.

to remove these things. We tried clearing them out, we tried putting

:48:40.:48:48.

up force cards so people were misdirected. In the end, the only

:48:49.:48:52.

solution we could come up with that we felt could work was barring the

:48:53.:49:00.

numbers. I went to see all the mobile companies and then people had

:49:01.:49:06.

landlines in those days. I said, what we want to do is when we notify

:49:07.:49:10.

you of this number, we would like you to bar it. They said, we will

:49:11.:49:18.

not do that. But we will, if you manage to get the placing of the

:49:19.:49:23.

cards made an offence, if you get it made illegal. They thought I had

:49:24.:49:28.

given up at that stage, there would be too much of a mountain to climb,

:49:29.:49:33.

but we decided to have a go and so on skewed a two year campaign.

:49:34.:49:39.

During those two years, I learned the truth about prostitutes's cards

:49:40.:49:45.

which is this is effectively organised crime being allowed to

:49:46.:49:49.

advertise for free and unrestricted on our streets and in the back of

:49:50.:49:54.

our newspapers and online. When you get one of these numbers, you are

:49:55.:49:58.

not ringing a prostitute who is herself a victim. You are ringing a

:49:59.:50:04.

switchboard. You ask what you want and they will give you any menu of

:50:05.:50:11.

women, trafficked or otherwise, of all ages and creeds and races. And

:50:12.:50:18.

then, those numbers gather value because once you are a punter and

:50:19.:50:21.

you have used the number and got what you want, you will use again

:50:22.:50:27.

and again and again. I started to learn and understand the economic

:50:28.:50:30.

spotlight these telephone numbers and that is key about eradicating

:50:31.:50:36.

it. Once you realise these numbers carry a value, it becomes even more

:50:37.:50:40.

pressing that we should bargain. When you add to that the printing of

:50:41.:50:45.

the cards, the advertising, the websites also costs money when the

:50:46.:50:50.

cards are printed in their hundreds of thousands, you can see why making

:50:51.:50:56.

it dangerous to advertise a telephone number could become an

:50:57.:50:59.

extremely effective deterrent to doing so. Once there is a number, if

:51:00.:51:05.

it is advertising is barred within 24 hours, they lose all of that

:51:06.:51:15.

income. So during those two years... For clarity, behind every one of

:51:16.:51:21.

those numbers is a woman who very often for the ones I have met has

:51:22.:51:24.

been abused as a child, might have been trafficked into the country,

:51:25.:51:31.

will have a violent pimp, so is the honourable member looking to

:51:32.:51:35.

prosecute the woman who is usually the victim or is he actually going

:51:36.:51:42.

after the pimps, manipulators and gang leaders behind? No, not

:51:43.:51:48.

targeting the women at all, this is about the organised crime which is

:51:49.:51:52.

creating the number, printing the card, placing the card and

:51:53.:51:57.

victimising the woman. It's about cutting off their access to cash,

:51:58.:52:01.

money, and therefore restricting their ability to build a business

:52:02.:52:06.

off the back of this free advertising. So eventually, after a

:52:07.:52:11.

two-year campaign, we got the offence made illegal helped by

:52:12.:52:19.

friends in the House of Lords. We arrested the first card, an Italian

:52:20.:52:23.

law student who was bailed and disappeared back to Italy. The next

:52:24.:52:28.

week, I had a meeting with the mobile phone companies and they

:52:29.:52:32.

completely welshed on the deal. They did not realise we would get it

:52:33.:52:36.

done, that I have the gumption we would manage. Usually the term

:52:37.:52:46.

welshing is deeply disrespectful to the people of my country. That was

:52:47.:52:52.

an unfortunate use of the word. There is a different spelling the B1

:52:53.:52:55.

but you are right. Please forgive me. It is a word in common parlance

:52:56.:53:02.

but I should not have used it. Anyway, they remained on the deal.

:53:03.:53:08.

As a result, I have been waiting for the opportunity to put the

:53:09.:53:10.

government the idea that there is this solution to the problem. So I

:53:11.:53:18.

present here a simple solution which is if a chief officer of police

:53:19.:53:23.

finds a number advertised in their area, for the purposes of

:53:24.:53:26.

prostitution, they can apply to a magistrate at the number barred.

:53:27.:53:30.

That means that both the police officer and the magistrates had to

:53:31.:53:33.

make a judgment about whether this is a measured thing to do. It's not

:53:34.:53:39.

automatic, is for the police to decide and I would advise the police

:53:40.:53:46.

officer to warn the owner. I would guarantee you that it will result in

:53:47.:53:50.

the disappearance of these cards from Liverpool, Manchester, the West

:53:51.:53:56.

End, where ever they may be. The right honourable gentleman is

:53:57.:53:59.

absolutely right, it could be extended, there could be numbers

:54:00.:54:04.

used for dealing drugs or selling cigarettes, numbers advertised on

:54:05.:54:07.

the Internet for prostitution and drugs, quite freely at the moment

:54:08.:54:12.

for people to access. If we cut the numbers do it swiftly, we will

:54:13.:54:15.

certainly go a huge rate in suppressing the activity making it

:54:16.:54:19.

difficult for criminal and customer to connect. I laid out before the

:54:20.:54:25.

House. I would ask the government, the Minister has said she will look

:54:26.:54:28.

at it and hopefully will come back in the Lords. My other two

:54:29.:54:34.

amendments, you will have noticed a theme in my time of this House, the

:54:35.:54:39.

protection of children. It has alarmed me for some time that the

:54:40.:54:43.

legislation protecting children is elderly and out of date and very

:54:44.:54:51.

patchy. The offence of child cruelty dates back to the 1932 act. It still

:54:52.:54:56.

includes things like allowing a child to be burnt, which arises from

:54:57.:55:01.

when we used to send them up chimneys. It is elderly are not fit

:55:02.:55:06.

for purpose. The last time the sentence was looked at was 1988. We

:55:07.:55:11.

have not looked at it for nearly 30 years and yet the number of offences

:55:12.:55:15.

is rising significantly. The deterrent effect is not working. I

:55:16.:55:20.

am given to understand that the sentencing council will look and

:55:21.:55:23.

review child cruelty over the coming summer. If they do so, we are duty

:55:24.:55:29.

bound to give head room and move the tariff up from ten years to 14 for

:55:30.:55:35.

the most severe offences. And then, new clause 15, which is about

:55:36.:55:43.

reviewing all child offences. We have been very good in this House in

:55:44.:55:49.

seeking to protect vulnerable groups in legislation generally so if you

:55:50.:55:52.

commit a crime against somebody who is gay because they are gay, you

:55:53.:55:56.

will get an aggravated sentence, if you get commit a crime against

:55:57.:56:00.

someone who is black because they are black, similarly you will get an

:56:01.:56:04.

aggravated sentence. Even on religious grounds, you will get an

:56:05.:56:11.

aggravated sentence, get if you commit an act on a child because

:56:12.:56:15.

they are a child, you will not necessarily get an aggregated

:56:16.:56:19.

sentence. They are not a protected group in law and they should be. I

:56:20.:56:25.

am grateful to the public bill office in helping me to draft an

:56:26.:56:28.

amendment that would allow me to do that and the best way we could find

:56:29.:56:32.

to do it was to require the sentencing council to review all

:56:33.:56:36.

offences for children within a 12 month period to allow all of us to

:56:37.:56:40.

have our say about aggravating the sentences when offences are

:56:41.:56:44.

committed against children. I have attempted to insert this principle,

:56:45.:56:50.

principally the psychoactive substances bill but the government

:56:51.:56:55.

would not accept my amendment if you are to sell a psychoactive substance

:56:56.:57:00.

to a child, you would get a stiffer sentence than if you sold it to 55

:57:01.:57:07.

man. All my amendments are probing. I am willing to give the government

:57:08.:57:11.

time to look at them again and hopefully they will come back in the

:57:12.:57:16.

Lords but if they don't, pleasingly, we get a policing and crime Bill in

:57:17.:57:21.

this House every six months, so I will get another chance, but on that

:57:22.:57:26.

basis, I hope you will look at the amendments and given the thumbs up

:57:27.:57:36.

for future consideration at least. I rise to speak predominantly the new

:57:37.:57:41.

clauses six, ten, 41 and 60 there had been tabled by the opposition

:57:42.:57:45.

front bench. The intention of these new clauses is to provide stronger

:57:46.:57:49.

safeguards against the sexual exploitation and abuse of children

:57:50.:57:53.

and to disrupt perpetrators of these crimes before they have the

:57:54.:57:56.

opportunity to destroy a child's life. I want to start with new

:57:57.:58:02.

clause six which relates to the extension of child abduction

:58:03.:58:05.

notices. These are a vital tool for the police. Quads are issued by the

:58:06.:58:12.

police at the request of a parent or legal guardian. They disrupt contact

:58:13.:58:16.

between a child and adult believed to be in the process of grooming

:58:17.:58:20.

batch child for sex. Currently the Police Commissioner one in relation

:58:21.:58:25.

to any child under the age of 16 but only a tiny minority. These include

:58:26.:58:31.

children taken into care under section 31, those subjected to an

:58:32.:58:36.

emergency protection order or in police protection. All other 17 and

:58:37.:58:42.

16-year-olds are left unprotected. By definition, children in care are

:58:43.:58:48.

vulnerable. The last statistics available showed 4300 and 2016 and

:58:49.:58:52.

17-year-olds who became looked after by the local authority would not be

:58:53.:58:57.

eligible for the protection of a child abduction warning notice. The

:58:58.:59:01.

Minister previously expressed scepticism around the proposals to

:59:02.:59:06.

extend the use of these notices. I recognise the sensitivities and law

:59:07.:59:09.

in this area given that 16 and 17-year-olds are illegal able to

:59:10.:59:15.

marry and consent to sexual activity but this group of children are

:59:16.:59:20.

living unstable and risky lives and they face a significantly greater

:59:21.:59:25.

risk of sexual exploitation and are targeted by adults who exploit their

:59:26.:59:28.

vulnerability yet currently police are denied access to a critical

:59:29.:59:32.

intervention tool that would help keep them safe. I agree with the

:59:33.:59:38.

Minister that quorum is at an imperfect tool but we also both

:59:39.:59:42.

agree that children of any age, including those who are 16 and 17,

:59:43.:59:47.

must be able to rely on the State for protection. For three years, I

:59:48.:59:51.

have been pushing the subsequent ministers to find a solution to this

:59:52.:59:56.

issue. The way to deal with complex issues is not to avoid them

:59:57.:00:05.

altogether. We need to persevere and collaborate so we can find the best

:00:06.:00:09.

possible solutions. It's vital that we get legislation to protect all

:00:10.:00:13.

children from abuse at the age of 18 and it's important that we get the

:00:14.:00:17.

legislation right. I know that the Minister is not minded to support

:00:18.:00:21.

this new clause so what assurances can she give that the government

:00:22.:00:24.

plans to make sure children up to the age of 18 are protected from the

:00:25.:00:30.

early stages of sexual grooming? Next, I would like to turn my

:00:31.:00:35.

attention to new clause 60. Unlike the previous amendment, this relates

:00:36.:00:39.

to an existing use of child abduction warning notices by the

:00:40.:00:43.

police. Phones are not legally enforceable. Breaching a notice is

:00:44.:00:48.

not a criminal offence but does form an evidence base for future action.

:00:49.:00:52.

That action is meant to take the form of a sexual harm prevention

:00:53.:00:57.

order or sexual risk order both of which require a high threshold to

:00:58.:01:02.

use. They are legally enforceable and punishable criminal sanctions.

:01:03.:01:06.

In theory, this is a good system. It allows the police to formally

:01:07.:01:09.

intervene to prevent harm at the earliest possible stage where there

:01:10.:01:13.

are concerns about an adult's behaviour towards a child. Even

:01:14.:01:18.

where the evidence is sparse, police have the ability to take further

:01:19.:01:24.

action. The police currently have tools to excavate their response and

:01:25.:01:29.

continue to keep a child safe. The problem is police forces in England

:01:30.:01:32.

and Wales are failing to record the breach of a child abduction warning

:01:33.:01:37.

notice. They are failing to record the issuing of a notice in the first

:01:38.:01:41.

place and the actions that follow from that breach. To be clear, if

:01:42.:01:46.

Acorn is issued because police suspect the child is at risk of

:01:47.:01:49.

grooming and this has the is not need reminding of the horrifying

:01:50.:01:54.

results of that crime, it's vital a breach is recorded and acted upon in

:01:55.:01:57.

order to keep that child safe from sexual abuse and exploitation.

:01:58.:02:09.

And yet, individual police forces have no idea to their effectiveness

:02:10.:02:13.

in tackling the early stages of grooming because they simply do not

:02:14.:02:18.

record the data. So this Government is ignorant of the reality of risk

:02:19.:02:21.

the children are facing from predatory paedophiles and abusers.

:02:22.:02:26.

As the tactics of perpetrators change, so must our approach. This

:02:27.:02:31.

involves constant vigilance in the way in which perpetrators operate

:02:32.:02:34.

and consummate monitoring the effectiveness of hours response.

:02:35.:02:39.

Failing to record the effectiveness of the current system is

:02:40.:02:42.

unforgivable. If the Minister cannot make an assessment as to whether

:02:43.:02:46.

this works, how can she make an assessment on the safety of children

:02:47.:02:50.

that we owe a duty to protect? New clause 60 would do with this issue

:02:51.:02:54.

directly by requiring police forces manually to collect a number of

:02:55.:03:01.

CAWNs issued, breached and the number of sexual harm prevention

:03:02.:03:05.

orders issued following that bridge. You'd clause 60 will require the

:03:06.:03:09.

Secretary of State to report to Parliament annually on the data. We

:03:10.:03:13.

need to get this legislation right. Every member of this House must take

:03:14.:03:17.

responsibility for the children to whom we owe a duty of care. This

:03:18.:03:21.

cannot be done by having the proper data. It is for that reason that I

:03:22.:03:26.

intend to push for a division on new clause 60. I wish to turn now to

:03:27.:03:31.

news caught him with it Government Amendment 50 six. Both of which

:03:32.:03:35.

relate to the licensing of taxes and private hire vehicles. -- taxis. I

:03:36.:03:43.

know the importance of having a robust taxi licensing scheme for

:03:44.:03:46.

both protecting passengers and drivers. Both independent report

:03:47.:03:52.

into the disaster in rather a recognised the vulnerability of a

:03:53.:03:56.

weak taxi licensing system and what it creates for child protection. I

:03:57.:04:01.

will give way. I am grateful to her for raising this important point to

:04:02.:04:06.

stop I had an adjournment debate on the issue of taxi licensing because

:04:07.:04:10.

we in greater Manchester have a problem, in that a neighbouring

:04:11.:04:15.

local authority in Lancashire is effectively handing out taxi

:04:16.:04:18.

licences like sweets. Often to people who have been legitimately

:04:19.:04:26.

refused taxi licences from any of the ten Greater Manchester

:04:27.:04:28.

authorities, yet they are now operating as private hire taxis on

:04:29.:04:33.

the streets. Is that not something that should be worrying to the

:04:34.:04:38.

public, but also needs strengthening in law to stop happening? I am so

:04:39.:04:46.

grateful for him bringing this up. My deep frustration is, in Rotherham

:04:47.:04:49.

we worked really hard to get the legislation right, we got robust

:04:50.:04:54.

legislation to protect children and within six weeks of that being in

:04:55.:04:59.

fermented, the deregulation bill meant it was not worth the paper it

:05:00.:05:03.

was written on. Because people from other areas can come in, pick up

:05:04.:05:08.

fares, be subcontracted and none of the safeguards have any effect. So I

:05:09.:05:16.

am thankful to him and it is an issue that Government needs to look

:05:17.:05:20.

at. To create the system in Rotherham, there was much

:05:21.:05:22.

consultation with the taxi drivers but also with the survivors of child

:05:23.:05:27.

abuse. Rotherham Borough Council have now implemented a new licensing

:05:28.:05:31.

system which is one of the things that influenced clause ten. After

:05:32.:05:37.

two years, of the horror that we discovered in Rotherham, the

:05:38.:05:40.

Government has failed to take action to make the taxi profession sector

:05:41.:05:44.

across the UK for all vulnerable people. The Government must learn

:05:45.:05:49.

lessons when things like this go catastrophically wrong. At committee

:05:50.:05:52.

level, Labour pushed the Government to push taxi and private vehicle

:05:53.:05:58.

hire licensing authorities under a statutory obligation to prevent

:05:59.:06:02.

child sexual exploitation. Taxi drivers are in a considerable

:06:03.:06:05.

position of trust. The overwhelming majority of taxi drivers live up to

:06:06.:06:10.

the responsibility their role creates, but there are a minority

:06:11.:06:16.

that do not. Better regulation is needed urgently to improve training

:06:17.:06:20.

and awareness of drivers so they can play a part in keeping children safe

:06:21.:06:23.

from harm and also they know how to report abuse if they see it. All

:06:24.:06:28.

local authorities must ensure checks are carried out to prevent

:06:29.:06:31.

perpetrators or preferential -- potential perpetrators from having a

:06:32.:06:35.

licence. Monitoring must be in tears, complaints must be

:06:36.:06:37.

investigated and passengers must feel confident. I'm delighted to see

:06:38.:06:42.

the Government have listened to Labour and have responded to our new

:06:43.:06:46.

clause by introducing one of their own which would empower the

:06:47.:06:50.

Secretary of State to issue a statutory guidance to listing for

:06:51.:06:54.

the licensing authorities. Can the Minister assure us that the

:06:55.:06:56.

Government's new clause 56 would have the same effect as our new

:06:57.:07:01.

clause ten? The new clause empowers but does not require the Secretary

:07:02.:07:05.

of State to issue statutory guidance. I would like the Minister

:07:06.:07:09.

to confirm that the Secretary of State intends to issue guidance and

:07:10.:07:13.

to do so without delay. I would appreciate an indication as to the

:07:14.:07:16.

timeline involved, both on the wallet of the consultation and also

:07:17.:07:21.

when the guidance would take effect. -- the roll-out. I am grateful to

:07:22.:07:26.

her forgiving way whilst I support much of what she says, maybe in the

:07:27.:07:33.

Government's: new clause, isn't part of the problem this, that a

:07:34.:07:38.

particular local authority that issues the licence receives the

:07:39.:07:44.

funding for that licence to be processed, but if they are operating

:07:45.:07:49.

in another part of the country altogether, it is a local authority

:07:50.:07:57.

very distance telephone -- distant, and might have the cost of them and

:07:58.:08:03.

forcing that taxi licence holder? Don't we need some parity in terms

:08:04.:08:06.

of the funding and where that taxi driver is operating? Once again, he

:08:07.:08:13.

is right, I welcome his comments and that is why for me personally, it

:08:14.:08:18.

needs to be a national thing, which the Government has responsibility

:08:19.:08:22.

for. I have to say, the Government has been good at making promises in

:08:23.:08:27.

relation to tackling child sexual exploitation but not so good in

:08:28.:08:31.

following it up with action. Therefore, can the Minister make

:08:32.:08:36.

some commitments on the issues around taxi licensing today? I would

:08:37.:08:39.

also appreciate a skier on the contents of the guidance although

:08:40.:08:43.

this is a subject for consultation, I appreciate. The Minister may wish

:08:44.:08:48.

to write to me on this point. Councils continue to report lack of

:08:49.:08:50.

intelligence sharing from police on issues crucial to deciding the

:08:51.:08:55.

suitability of applicants were taxi licences. Although the new

:08:56.:08:59.

common-law disclosure policy should allow for information sharing, the

:09:00.:09:04.

interpretation varies and many police forces do not share the data.

:09:05.:09:08.

Guidance to cancel alone will not resolve this. Will the Home Office

:09:09.:09:12.

to take steps to ensure police cooperate fully with cancel so they

:09:13.:09:15.

can screen applicants were taxi licences effectively? And will the

:09:16.:09:20.

Minister confirm the status of this guidance, the amendment says

:09:21.:09:24.

authorities must have regard to it. I hope the Minister will clarify

:09:25.:09:27.

that the guidance must be followed, not just looked at and put in a

:09:28.:09:32.

drawer. If the Minister can confirm those questions, we may withdraw our

:09:33.:09:38.

amendment. I now wish to return to new clause 41, which would make it

:09:39.:09:43.

explicit in the law that local safeguarding children's boards have

:09:44.:09:46.

an obligation to prevent child sexual exploitation and other forms

:09:47.:09:51.

of abuse. The boards should bring together all professionals in

:09:52.:09:54.

education, law enforcement, social care and the voluntary sector to

:09:55.:09:59.

help protect children. They are established by the last Labour

:10:00.:10:02.

Government who had the potential to ensure the focus of every

:10:03.:10:05.

organisation on the board has the protection and welfare of children.

:10:06.:10:10.

Look also -- safeguarding children's boards can act as the canary to

:10:11.:10:13.

child sexual exploitation and abuse, to bring together professionals who

:10:14.:10:17.

can develop a full picture of harm being done against a child. But far

:10:18.:10:22.

more emphasis must be given to prevention of child sexual

:10:23.:10:26.

exploitation and abuse. Chief Constable Simon Bailey said in 2015,

:10:27.:10:32.

more than ?1 billion was spent on investigating child abuse

:10:33.:10:34.

allegations. Sadly by the time the police were involved, it is likely

:10:35.:10:37.

the children have already been harmed and would be living with the

:10:38.:10:41.

trauma for the rest of their lives. Prime Minister has himself given

:10:42.:10:44.

child sexual expedition the status of a national threat in a strategic

:10:45.:10:51.

policy requirement. So I hope the Minister will support our new clause

:10:52.:10:56.

to broaden the objectives to include a focus on prevention of sexual

:10:57.:11:00.

exploitation. I will give way. She is making some good points, but it

:11:01.:11:10.

is my understanding that each local safeguarding children board was

:11:11.:11:13.

responsible for developing its own localised version of that CSE plan.

:11:14.:11:17.

And the problem is not so much the plan, it is the unwillingness of

:11:18.:11:24.

some of the partners within that to pull weight. And does she agree the

:11:25.:11:29.

recent review that has been undertaken may need to bring in some

:11:30.:11:33.

statutory duties on those partners to do their bit in partnership with

:11:34.:11:39.

everybody else? As ever, he is superb on this field, and yes, he

:11:40.:11:47.

also is ahead of me by a lying in that I completely agree, because the

:11:48.:11:51.

problem with the safeguarding boards as they stand is they are very

:11:52.:11:55.

dependent on the skill, determination and bloody mindedness

:11:56.:11:58.

of the chair. You are right, I do not want this to be a postcode

:11:59.:12:03.

Lottery, if you have a good chair that can implement a good plan. What

:12:04.:12:08.

I want is for every child across the country to be safe and safeguarded

:12:09.:12:12.

in the same manner. So I look to the Government to try and move on this

:12:13.:12:16.

area. I would now like to speak in support of new clause 13 and 14. I

:12:17.:12:22.

want to begin by praising my honourable friend, the member for

:12:23.:12:27.

Stockport, who works tirelessly for the protection of children in her

:12:28.:12:31.

constituency and across the country. She has also been a role model to me

:12:32.:12:35.

and a mentor to me and I am extremely grateful. I want to put on

:12:36.:12:40.

record my gratitude for all the help she has given me, but also all the

:12:41.:12:44.

children in this country, you have been tireless and I am very grateful

:12:45.:12:48.

for that. Our amendment is looking at the grooming of children for

:12:49.:12:50.

criminal behaviour raise an important issue that this House must

:12:51.:12:55.

tackle. Children are not just a risk of grooming for sex, they face

:12:56.:12:59.

exploitation from criminals for terrorism, trafficking and

:13:00.:13:02.

drug-related offences, just a few examples. This Government must take

:13:03.:13:08.

seriously this issue and offer holistic approaches to tackling

:13:09.:13:12.

child grooming and exploitation. I ask the Minister to work closely

:13:13.:13:16.

with the member for Stockport to develop a new clause 13 and 14 into

:13:17.:13:21.

legislation. Turning to new clauses 46, 47, 61 and 62, through my own

:13:22.:13:29.

campaigning work to prevent violence and exportation and harm against

:13:30.:13:33.

children, I have seen the most dramatic and shocking increase in

:13:34.:13:36.

the proliferation of sexual images, often taken and shared by children.

:13:37.:13:42.

The right honourable member will appreciate the current legislation

:13:43.:13:45.

has only been in effect for a year, so I hope he can support my column

:13:46.:13:49.

on the Government to conduct a thorough review into the

:13:50.:13:51.

effectiveness of the legislation, the number of prosecutions and

:13:52.:13:56.

convictions and the suitability of the sentences. I would also like to

:13:57.:14:00.

welcome new clause 55, which creates a lifetime anonymity for victims of

:14:01.:14:04.

forced marriage. The crime of forced marriage is another form of domestic

:14:05.:14:09.

violence. The victims, mostly women, suffer violence, threats of

:14:10.:14:13.

violence, manipulation, psychological, and economic control.

:14:14.:14:16.

Like every other form of domestic violence, victims have their rights

:14:17.:14:23.

removed from them by their abusers. Anonymity will encourage victims to

:14:24.:14:26.

come forward and seek help from the police. It will give a survivor a

:14:27.:14:31.

chance to regain control and rebuild their life. Now the Government

:14:32.:14:35.

recognises the benefit of anonymity for victims of forced marriage, FGM

:14:36.:14:40.

and sexual abuse, I hope the government will consider extending

:14:41.:14:44.

anonymity to victims of other forms of domestic and sexual violence and

:14:45.:14:47.

needs to do more to raise awareness of these awful crimes. Madam Deputy

:14:48.:14:54.

Speaker, I would like to briefly comment on a number of amendments

:14:55.:14:57.

tabled by the shadow Home Office team, led by my friend, the member

:14:58.:15:04.

for all and St Pancras. It is unfortunate but true that our

:15:05.:15:06.

criminal justice system does not always their support for the victim

:15:07.:15:10.

at its core. I know from my own work that very often they feel totally

:15:11.:15:16.

unsupported when reporting crime. Many victims face the most

:15:17.:15:20.

horrendous ordeal at court, forced to relive their trauma over and over

:15:21.:15:25.

again. Yet there is no statutory framework around the provision of

:15:26.:15:29.

services to victims in the criminal justice system. No legal regime

:15:30.:15:32.

promoting and protecting is -- protecting the rights of victims.

:15:33.:15:38.

Similarly, the role of the Commissioner has great potential but

:15:39.:15:42.

it is under resourced and exists without significant powers. Victims'

:15:43.:15:46.

rights will only be taken seriously if and when they are enshrined in

:15:47.:15:51.

law. I hope the Government will hear our call and make that a reality. I

:15:52.:15:55.

wish to end by commenting on new clause two. It would devolve

:15:56.:16:00.

responsibility from police into the Welsh Assembly. I have had the

:16:01.:16:02.

pleasure of working with the honourable member on other clauses

:16:03.:16:07.

in this bill relating to child protection. I have no doubt that her

:16:08.:16:12.

convictions expressed today in new clause two are heartfelt and sincere

:16:13.:16:18.

need to be taken seriously. As my honourable friend has outlined,

:16:19.:16:22.

Labour believes that the people of Wales should have a greater say over

:16:23.:16:26.

the policing of Wales and this should be pursued through the Wales

:16:27.:16:28.

Bill. I stand to move new clauses 46, 47,

:16:29.:16:43.

61 and 62, standing in my own name. If I might perhaps just where the

:16:44.:16:48.

honourable lady left off there with regard to new clause two, my

:16:49.:16:55.

honourable friend would normally speak in relation to match such as

:16:56.:17:01.

this but he unfortunately is absent from the House today through

:17:02.:17:07.

illness. But the honourable lady has indicated it is advantageous to push

:17:08.:17:11.

this clause to vote and in the event she does so, she would indicate that

:17:12.:17:16.

my party the night will support her and her colleagues in relation that.

:17:17.:17:23.

To devote substantial portions of the criminal law in relation to

:17:24.:17:28.

Wales without actually devolving the control of the police force which

:17:29.:17:32.

would then enforce it does seem at the very least to be a little bit

:17:33.:17:37.

illogical. I wish the honourable lady and her colleagues well in

:17:38.:17:42.

relation to that. I am grateful for the indications of support I have

:17:43.:17:45.

had from members in different parties in relation to these new

:17:46.:17:52.

clauses I bring to the House this evening and indeed from party is not

:17:53.:17:57.

represented in this House, in particular the women's equality

:17:58.:18:02.

party. They are very effective campaigners in the issue of revenge

:18:03.:18:05.

pornography and they would be authors of new clauses 61 and 62

:18:06.:18:11.

that stand in my name this evening. The honourable lady speaking from

:18:12.:18:16.

the opposition front bench did quite rightly say that it was just last

:18:17.:18:22.

year that we undertook the criminalisation of revenge

:18:23.:18:26.

pornography and that was quite a remarkable step. None of us should

:18:27.:18:30.

underestimate the importance of what was done at that time. I think

:18:31.:18:37.

though, and this picks up the point that the honourable lady made, the

:18:38.:18:42.

statistics to demonstrate already that this is a stubborn problem and

:18:43.:18:48.

one where it is clear that more action is going to be required if we

:18:49.:18:54.

are to bring about the changes in attitude and behaviour that will

:18:55.:18:58.

ultimately see this sort of behaviour reduced and hopefully

:18:59.:19:08.

eventually eliminated. I commend the honourable gentleman on bringing

:19:09.:19:12.

this amendment forward. He reflected on the importance of this law the

:19:13.:19:17.

government brought in. At that time, we talked about the importance of

:19:18.:19:21.

recognising the impact of online crimes is very different to those of

:19:22.:19:25.

off-line crimes. Does he join me in saying that while it can be easy to

:19:26.:19:30.

say what is illegal off-line is illegal online, in fact that misses

:19:31.:19:34.

the point because the impact can be so much greater and more devastating

:19:35.:19:39.

to the people involved? Indeed, and when it comes to the distress it has

:19:40.:19:44.

caused, I will touch on that point later on when it comes to moving in

:19:45.:19:52.

relation to new clause 62 in particular because the right

:19:53.:19:55.

honourable lady is absolutely right that we should focus in relation to

:19:56.:20:02.

these offences on the outcomes and the effects that are enjoyed by

:20:03.:20:05.

those who suffered the abuse, and I use that term advisedly. In the

:20:06.:20:12.

period from April to December of last year, we have seen 1160 cases

:20:13.:20:22.

reported. Now that is remarkable given the time periods that we are

:20:23.:20:27.

dealing with. That was in England and Wales alone. Only 11% of those

:20:28.:20:35.

cases that have been ported have led the charge. There have been 82

:20:36.:20:42.

prosecutions and 74 cautions resulting from these charges. And

:20:43.:20:47.

that suggests to me that when we speak about the need to see a change

:20:48.:20:55.

in attitude and behaviour, in fact the first place in which we need to

:20:56.:21:01.

see that change is amongst some of the criminal justice professionals

:21:02.:21:06.

dealing with this. The police officers, prosecutors and judges. It

:21:07.:21:11.

takes me back to my own early career when, as a trainee and solicitor, I

:21:12.:21:18.

worked for the fiscal service in Scotland. One of my first bosses

:21:19.:21:27.

then was the first female Lord Advocate first solicitor Lord

:21:28.:21:31.

Advocate in Scotland. She was working in Crown Office in Edinburgh

:21:32.:21:36.

and she did along with other colleagues tremendous amounts to

:21:37.:21:40.

drive forward improvements in the way in which the victims of sexual

:21:41.:21:46.

abuse in general but child sexual abuse in particular were treated by

:21:47.:21:51.

the court system. A lot of it seems very rudimentary and basic stuff now

:21:52.:21:57.

but in the early and mid-19 90s, when we were arranging for court

:21:58.:22:03.

visits ahead of trials for victims, and the victims of the sort of

:22:04.:22:06.

offences to give their evidence from behind a screen, it seemed

:22:07.:22:13.

revolutionary and it met with very substantial resistance from the...

:22:14.:22:20.

Not so much the police but certainly many within the legal profession. I

:22:21.:22:25.

believe we were right to drive these changes. That has been demonstrated

:22:26.:22:30.

by the way in which the law and procedure in that area has developed

:22:31.:22:36.

ever since and I think a similar attitude and similar drive is now

:22:37.:22:41.

required in relation to the offences of revenge pornography. New clause

:22:42.:22:47.

46 goes I think right to the heart of this. This is something where in

:22:48.:22:51.

fact I don't think we would necessarily need to wait for a

:22:52.:23:00.

review all seek further where the cases and procedures will develop it

:23:01.:23:04.

because the effect of new clause 46 is to extend the protection of

:23:05.:23:12.

anonymity to victims of revenge pornography. Something which is a

:23:13.:23:18.

principle that is accepted by the government in relation to the

:23:19.:23:22.

victims of forced marriage and again I welcome the new clause 55 that

:23:23.:23:29.

extends that protection. But it surely strikes at the heart of the

:23:30.:23:33.

offence that we introduced last year, that what we are seeking to

:23:34.:23:41.

protect here is those women who are in essence the subject of an

:23:42.:23:47.

invasion of privacy. There is no meaningful remedy available to them.

:23:48.:23:55.

If making complaints, seeking to enforce criminal sanctions that come

:23:56.:23:58.

as a result of that invasion of privacy only makes them vulnerable

:23:59.:24:04.

to further invasion of privacy and that is why I think it is important

:24:05.:24:09.

that at some point, by whatever means, and I will listen very

:24:10.:24:12.

carefully to what the Minister has to say when she comes the reply to

:24:13.:24:19.

this, we should be looking at an extension of the protection of

:24:20.:24:24.

anonymity of victims. New clause 47 allows the court to make

:24:25.:24:27.

compensation orders to victims of revenge pornography. Many

:24:28.:24:33.

campaigning this field would like to see a full remedy available. In

:24:34.:24:38.

fact, I think that would have taken us somewhat beyond the scope of this

:24:39.:24:42.

bill but again, this is something where we ought to be taking

:24:43.:24:48.

advantage of the quite remarkable consensus we have seen across the

:24:49.:24:52.

Chamber tonight and I hope the government will recognise that and

:24:53.:24:58.

take full advantage of it because we ought to make the best of that

:24:59.:25:04.

consensus. New clause 61 changes the taste from one of an intent to cause

:25:05.:25:17.

harm in -- and we would extend that to include recklessness. It brings

:25:18.:25:34.

us into line with the protections already afforded the people in

:25:35.:25:38.

Scotland through the abusive behaviour and sexual harm Scotland

:25:39.:25:48.

Act of 2010. The text also is... The offence would also be extended from

:25:49.:25:53.

one of which require disclosure of this material to threatening

:25:54.:25:59.

disclosure. Research has indicated no fewer than one in ten ex partners

:26:00.:26:06.

make this threat, and again, if the outcome is to be meaningful

:26:07.:26:10.

protection, then I think that's the extend the coverage the one

:26:11.:26:17.

involving a threat to expose all disclose rather is something which

:26:18.:26:22.

would make sense. That is something which is pursued in the control or

:26:23.:26:32.

delete campaign. The final new clause standing in my name is new

:26:33.:26:37.

clause 62 and this brings me to the point made by the right honourable

:26:38.:26:49.

lady, the member for Basingstoke. I am not suggesting for a moment that

:26:50.:26:54.

he spoke for too long because he hasn't, he has been brief, but we

:26:55.:27:00.

are time-limited. Another honourable gentleman has indicated he wishes to

:27:01.:27:04.

speak and I trust he will be brief because I am quite sure the House

:27:05.:27:08.

would be disappointed if the minister did not have time to answer

:27:09.:27:11.

the many points which have been made to her this evening. I am grateful

:27:12.:27:16.

to you for saying I have not spoken long because I have spoken longer

:27:17.:27:24.

than I intended to! I do think it would assist the House if I were

:27:25.:27:30.

able to explain new clause 62. This which we striking here is that in

:27:31.:27:36.

extending the definition of the offence in the way we seek to do, we

:27:37.:27:43.

are seeking to cover the distress that is caused, the outcome of the

:27:44.:27:48.

behaviour which is suffered by the victims of this abuse. At the

:27:49.:27:53.

moment, it is drawn tightly for reasons I think are understood by

:27:54.:27:58.

all, but again, the experience of the time this has been in the field

:27:59.:28:03.

sees the distress is the same for those who have suffered this why the

:28:04.:28:12.

disclosure and that it would make sense to ensure that the Harman

:28:13.:28:20.

distress covered there is equally covered by criminal law. I was not

:28:21.:28:27.

going to make a speech but I thought I had better use this opportunity to

:28:28.:28:32.

explain hilar V intervention. I would like to apologise to the

:28:33.:28:39.

Minister. I don't normally get worked up in this place, not least

:28:40.:28:44.

because my mother is normally watching on BBC Parliament! But I

:28:45.:28:49.

get very passionate about this and I'm delighted to see the Minister

:28:50.:28:53.

debating this on several occasions and he was very kind enough to meet

:28:54.:29:00.

with me. However, we lost our powers because of the fact that policing is

:29:01.:29:05.

not involved in Wales. Northern Ireland and Scotland have kept their

:29:06.:29:09.

helicopter services yet in Wales, we have been put into a centralised

:29:10.:29:16.

service called the National police service which means we have had our

:29:17.:29:21.

helicopter pulled. The only figures we have available for the month of

:29:22.:29:31.

January, the 86% of requests by police officers was not honoured. It

:29:32.:29:40.

is not only the police officer not having the service and support they

:29:41.:29:45.

deserve, the residence are clearly being let down and let's remember,

:29:46.:29:53.

we're now entering high season, where the population will swell

:29:54.:29:57.

considerably, not least where people will enjoy our fantastic coastline,

:29:58.:30:02.

and the use of that helicopter would be far more important at that time.

:30:03.:30:09.

Devolved policing is not just about securing equality for Wales. It will

:30:10.:30:14.

be devolved to cities in England. Why is it not devolved in the case

:30:15.:30:19.

of Wales? I'm very disappointed that the Labour Party are abstaining this

:30:20.:30:23.

evening. I'm delighted we have the spirit of the Lib Dems. Where are

:30:24.:30:36.

the Welsh MPs? There is only one current... There have only been two

:30:37.:30:42.

Labour MPs for Wales in the Chamber. And I'm delighted that my honourable

:30:43.:30:48.

friend the Newport East is in the Chamber as well. But these debates

:30:49.:30:53.

will be recorded by the people of Wales and it will be reported by the

:30:54.:30:57.

press and we will let the Beagle of Wales drew their own conclusions.

:30:58.:31:08.

Minister. This has been a wide-ranging debate but before I

:31:09.:31:12.

respond to be many opposition and backbench amendments in this group,

:31:13.:31:15.

I hope you will forgive me if I touch briefly on the key government

:31:16.:31:19.

amendments are new clauses. If I could start with new clause 55,

:31:20.:31:25.

which confers lifelong anonymity on victims of forced marriage.

:31:26.:31:30.

Forced marriages are not current practice and this Government is

:31:31.:31:34.

determined to do everything we can to tackle it. That is why we

:31:35.:31:38.

introduced a specific offence of forced marriage in 2014, and why we

:31:39.:31:46.

are amending this bill to introduce lifelong anonymity for victims. We

:31:47.:31:50.

are encouraged by the first conviction for the new offence,

:31:51.:31:54.

secured in June last year. But there is still work to be done. Part of

:31:55.:31:59.

that is doing all we can to encourage more victims to speak out

:32:00.:32:04.

about this horrific crime. We know that forced marriage can be hidden

:32:05.:32:08.

and we want to ensure that victims have the confidence to come forward,

:32:09.:32:11.

so they get the support they need and perpetrators are brought to

:32:12.:32:15.

justice. Introducing lifelong anonymity will help achieve that aim

:32:16.:32:20.

and this measure is modelled on the anonymity we introduced for victims

:32:21.:32:24.

of FGM last year was dubbed means that victims of forced marriage are

:32:25.:32:27.

anonymous from the time an allegation is made and will prohibit

:32:28.:32:33.

the broadcast of any information likely to result in them being

:32:34.:32:36.

identified to the police. The protection given will be broad and

:32:37.:32:42.

wide-ranging, covering traditional red and broadcast media and

:32:43.:32:47.

information published online. Breach of the prohibition will be an

:32:48.:32:50.

offence punishable by an unlimited fine. We believe this measure taken

:32:51.:32:54.

together with the wider package of work the Government is taking

:32:55.:32:57.

forward on forced marriage will send a clear message, this apparent

:32:58.:33:02.

practice will not be tolerated in the UK. -- abhorrence. Turning to

:33:03.:33:10.

news clause 54 and amendment 112, the cancellation of travel documents

:33:11.:33:13.

is an important tool in the fight against terrorism and in particular

:33:14.:33:17.

of disrupting travel to conflict zones to fight or received terrorist

:33:18.:33:22.

training. At present there is a gap in the powers to seize cancelled or

:33:23.:33:28.

invalid travel documents. Authorities would have the power to

:33:29.:33:33.

seize a cancelled travel document if they intended it at a port, while

:33:34.:33:37.

the police can see is a cancelled British passport away from the port

:33:38.:33:40.

but there is no power to seize a foreign travel document away from

:33:41.:33:46.

the port. New clause 50 4000 gap. We do not expect the new powers to be

:33:47.:33:53.

used often. We expect many of the documents to be picked up at the

:33:54.:33:59.

border. But it would enable us to ensure a travel document cancelled

:34:00.:34:02.

after a person holding it entered the UK could be seized. To make this

:34:03.:34:07.

new power factor, the new clause would also enable a constable to

:34:08.:34:11.

enter premises to search for and seize invalid travel documents, both

:34:12.:34:15.

British passports and foreign travel documents. It would also make it a

:34:16.:34:22.

criminal offence intentionally to obstruct or to seek to frustrate a

:34:23.:34:25.

search for a cancelled travel document. Turning to Government new

:34:26.:34:32.

clause 56, this covers similar ground to the new clause ten tabled

:34:33.:34:36.

by the honourable Lady from Rotherham, namely the need to spread

:34:37.:34:40.

the practice in how local authorities discharge their

:34:41.:34:44.

licensing functions in respect to taxis and private hire vehicles and

:34:45.:34:47.

the dissimilar to that tabled by the honourable member for Swansea East

:34:48.:34:51.

in committee. The Government is committed to taking action on this

:34:52.:34:56.

matter. We strongly agree that continued work with the taxi and

:34:57.:35:00.

private hire vehicles sector is needed to reduce the risk posed to

:35:01.:35:04.

children and young people from sexual exploitation by that small

:35:05.:35:07.

number of cab drivers who seek to abuse their position of trust. If I

:35:08.:35:12.

can turn to some of the points raised, and I will write to the

:35:13.:35:16.

honourable laid on the specifics because of lack of time, but I can

:35:17.:35:23.

assure her, -- the honourable Lady, we intend to bring statutory

:35:24.:35:28.

guidance and new clause 56, and, with other legislation uses the word

:35:29.:35:34.

may, what our intention is clear, a duty to have regard to the guidance

:35:35.:35:39.

sets a high bar and a public authority will not be able to set

:35:40.:35:42.

aside the guidance without good reason. I will write to the

:35:43.:35:46.

honourable Lady about all other matters covered by the statutory

:35:47.:35:50.

guidance and our timetable for implementation. I hope she will

:35:51.:35:55.

therefore be happy to withdraw her new clause ten. Turning to some of

:35:56.:35:59.

the amendments tabled by others, new clause 15, sentencing guideline

:36:00.:36:07.

review. I have met my honourable friend on this and all amendments he

:36:08.:36:13.

has tabled, and he knows from discussions with the sentencing

:36:14.:36:20.

minister, the ministering -- the Minister of Justice and the Ministry

:36:21.:36:22.

of Justice is looking at sentencing overall with a view to bringing

:36:23.:36:26.

forward proposals in a bill that is being announced -- was announced in

:36:27.:36:32.

the gracious speech recently. On that basis, I hope you will agree it

:36:33.:36:36.

would be right to look at all of these matters in the round rather

:36:37.:36:40.

than looking at them in isolation. Turning to new clause 16, can I pay

:36:41.:36:47.

tribute to my honourable friend for North West Hampshire. He has worked

:36:48.:36:50.

on this matter of soliciting for over 20 years and he deserves great

:36:51.:36:58.

credit for all he has achieved in regard to the soliciting, using card

:36:59.:37:06.

in telephone boxes and other matters. Certainly I think we can

:37:07.:37:10.

all agree that the telephone boxes across the country are much cleaner

:37:11.:37:14.

and more pleasant, those that are left, because of the work he has

:37:15.:37:19.

done. He has indicated that his main focus is in tackling the organised

:37:20.:37:23.

crime groups who profit from exploitation of vulnerable people. I

:37:24.:37:28.

think that is a laudable aim and one that I share with him. But I hope he

:37:29.:37:35.

would agree it would be premature to legislate before we fully understand

:37:36.:37:39.

the most effective ways to disrupt criminal -- the ability of criminal

:37:40.:37:42.

gangs to raise income through prostituted -- prostitution and

:37:43.:37:46.

other matters. We need to know more about the extent to which organised

:37:47.:37:51.

criminality derides profits in this way and properly to consider whether

:37:52.:37:54.

their existing -- there are existing powers which could be used to

:37:55.:37:59.

disrupt organised crime gangs operating in this way. Without this

:38:00.:38:02.

information I am concerned we would provide police with a power that

:38:03.:38:08.

would be onerous and perhaps ineffective in use if gangs could

:38:09.:38:14.

simply print new cars. He has explained the business case for

:38:15.:38:18.

these cards very effectively, so I have asked my officials to work with

:38:19.:38:22.

the National Crime Agency to develop our understanding of the link

:38:23.:38:24.

between organised crime and prostitution and they undertake to

:38:25.:38:29.

keep my honourable friend and -- informed of progress and make sure

:38:30.:38:33.

he knows what we intend in those matters. If I can come now to new

:38:34.:38:42.

clause 67, conduct in a public office, -- misconduct, last

:38:43.:38:49.

Parliament legislated for any offence supplementing the common law

:38:50.:38:53.

offence, and carries a maximum sentence of 14 years. It has been

:38:54.:39:00.

enforced since April 20 15. I will move on to new clause two, the

:39:01.:39:03.

matter of devolution of policing raised by the honourable Lady. I

:39:04.:39:10.

always get this wrong, please forgive me dost-mac we did discuss

:39:11.:39:15.

in committee. My pronunciation is poor. The honourable Lady argued

:39:16.:39:24.

powerfully for devolution of policing in Wales and the Government

:39:25.:39:27.

has been clear that in the absence of consensus, policing should not be

:39:28.:39:34.

devolved to the Welsh Government and National Assembly until that

:39:35.:39:36.

consensus can be reached. I will give way. Does she not understand

:39:37.:39:43.

that the commission was a cross-party commission set up by the

:39:44.:39:46.

UK Government, which included her party? I know he feels strongly

:39:47.:39:53.

about this. I do accept his apology from earlier. I promise that I was

:39:54.:39:58.

not smirking at anything he was saying and I know the policing

:39:59.:40:02.

minister is here and we'll be happy to meet him again, as he has done

:40:03.:40:09.

previously on the matter. But the current arrangement for policing

:40:10.:40:14.

works well and proponents of devolution have failed to address

:40:15.:40:17.

the significant risks that would arise if these arrangements were

:40:18.:40:22.

disrupted. I disagree with her when she says that policing in England

:40:23.:40:28.

and Wales is set up urban areas, I represent a rural constituency in

:40:29.:40:32.

England and I certainly can say that way policing operates is right for

:40:33.:40:36.

my constituency using Police and Crime Commissioners and devolving

:40:37.:40:39.

power to them to make sure we have the right policing for each area.

:40:40.:40:43.

But we have the Wales Bill, which we are debating tomorrow and I think it

:40:44.:40:46.

is important those matters are debated fully. I'm conscious of time

:40:47.:40:55.

and I want to try and get through as much as possible. Turning to the

:40:56.:41:03.

issues of digital crime, we debated much of the points that have been

:41:04.:41:10.

raised during committee. My right honourable friend from Basingstoke

:41:11.:41:13.

has also made some important and powerful points about the law around

:41:14.:41:24.

digital crime. I, however, do not accept the premise that the criminal

:41:25.:41:28.

law is defective in this area. I think it is important to knowledge

:41:29.:41:30.

these crimes are the same crimes, the fact they are committed online

:41:31.:41:36.

does not change it. I would not wish to create a whole new suite of

:41:37.:41:41.

offences which confused the courts and made it more difficult to get

:41:42.:41:46.

convictions. I will give way. Could she perhaps take a moment to explain

:41:47.:41:50.

why the police are finding it so difficult to secure convictions,

:41:51.:41:54.

particularly around revenge pornography, if the law in this area

:41:55.:41:58.

and other areas of online crime is so clear was lack She will

:41:59.:42:03.

understand that getting a conviction is not just about the offence in

:42:04.:42:08.

legislation or President. It is about the evidence that can be

:42:09.:42:11.

gathered and presented with evidence to a jury. I am not saying that we

:42:12.:42:17.

are in any way perfect in this regard and there are many debates we

:42:18.:42:20.

can have about how best to get convictions. I have said that I

:42:21.:42:23.

would very much like to meet her, together with my noble friend, the

:42:24.:42:30.

baroness Shields, who has responsibility for the digital bill

:42:31.:42:34.

that is coming forward. Because I want to make sure that we are

:42:35.:42:39.

covering these issues and that we make it as easy for the courts as

:42:40.:42:43.

possible to get convictions. But I do not accept that the answer is

:42:44.:42:48.

simply to create a whole new suite of offensive that may confuse law

:42:49.:42:53.

enforcement and prosecutors. But I do want to discuss this with her and

:42:54.:42:56.

others to make sure we do address these points. New clause 44, and I

:42:57.:43:05.

am darting around, I realise, talked about the specialist digital units.

:43:06.:43:09.

We discussed this in committee. It is a matter that the way policing

:43:10.:43:16.

decisions are taken is a matter for chief officers, not something that

:43:17.:43:19.

the Home Office should legislate to say that every force should operate

:43:20.:43:26.

in this way, it is down to chief officers locally and Police and

:43:27.:43:30.

Crime Commissioners. I am coming to new clause six. I want to take on

:43:31.:43:39.

all the points about child protection together. We have had

:43:40.:43:43.

many debates on the issue of vulnerable young people, children

:43:44.:43:46.

and how best to protect them, how to stop them going missing, and I pay

:43:47.:43:51.

tribute to the honourable Lady from Stockport, who has been such a

:43:52.:43:55.

pioneer in this area. When she talks, I know there is common sense

:43:56.:44:03.

there. I am determined that we tackle this but I think we need to

:44:04.:44:06.

do it in the right way, which is why I have convened the round table in a

:44:07.:44:11.

couple of weeks to look at the overall issue of child abduction

:44:12.:44:15.

warning notices because I am not convinced that a warning notice that

:44:16.:44:19.

something that is a construct of the police that is related to the child

:44:20.:44:24.

abduction offence is necessarily the right way to make sure that we

:44:25.:44:27.

protect those vulnerable young people. So I want to look at all

:44:28.:44:32.

matters regarding child abduction warning notices and the possibility,

:44:33.:44:36.

and that they she has been invited to the round table, because I want

:44:37.:44:41.

to look at everything we do in this area and make sure we have got the

:44:42.:44:47.

right tools in the armoury or law-enforcement, but because it is

:44:48.:44:50.

so important the police are able to use those tools and protect young

:44:51.:44:53.

people with the right tools for them. I am conscious of time and I

:44:54.:44:58.

know we perhaps need to have a moment before nine o'clock. I hope

:44:59.:45:05.

therefore that honourable and right honourable members will accept the

:45:06.:45:07.

Government amendments and withdraw the run. Just to close therefore, I

:45:08.:45:15.

must ask the question, we have had devolution in Wales the 17 years so

:45:16.:45:18.

why has Wales been treated differently in terms of policing to

:45:19.:45:26.

the other nations? And the policing views of Wales are different, our

:45:27.:45:32.

experience has shown that such services are drawn inevitably

:45:33.:45:34.

eastwards and away from the rural areas where we most need them.

:45:35.:45:39.

Finally, I would strongly argue the absence of consensus is now a

:45:40.:45:44.

historic issue. There is consensus in Wales for Wales policing, for

:45:45.:45:49.

policing to be devolved to Wales. There is consensus for the National

:45:50.:45:55.

Assembly for Wales and consensus among all four Police and Crime

:45:56.:46:01.

Commissioners. The question is that new clause to Maccabi read a second

:46:02.:46:04.

time. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No."

:46:05.:46:10.

Division, clear the lobby. Order. The question is new clause

:46:11.:47:36.

two be read a second time. Order. Order. The ice to the right,

:47:37.:58:26.

12, the noes to the left, 262. VI is to the right, 12, the noes to the

:58:27.:58:42.

left, 262. The noes have it. Unlock. Minister to move new classes 54-57

:58:43.:58:52.

formally. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:58:53.:58:56.

"no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Sarah Champion. New clause

:58:57.:59:06.

60 formally. The question is new clause 60 be added to the bill. As

:59:07.:59:11.

many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".

:59:12.:59:14.

Division. Cleared the lobby. Unlock. The question is that new

:59:15.:01:15.

clause 60 be added to the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say

:01:16.:01:16.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". Order, order. The ayes to the right,

:01:17.:09:22.

157. The noes to the -- the noes develop. The ayes to the red, 157,

:09:23.:09:29.

the noes to the left, 257. The noes habit. Unlock. Order the Minister to

:09:30.:09:41.

move Government amendments formally. Thank you. The question is that the

:09:42.:09:52.

Government amendments made. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to

:09:53.:09:57.

the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. Order, order. Consideration

:09:58.:10:07.

completed, I will now suspend ayes for about five minutes in order to

:10:08.:10:12.

make a decision about certification. The division bells will be run two

:10:13.:10:17.

minutes before the ayes resumes. Following my certification, the

:10:18.:10:20.

Government will table the appropriate consent motions, copies

:10:21.:10:23.

of which will be available shortly in the vote office and will be

:10:24.:10:27.

distributed by doorkeepers. Order. Order, order. I can now inform the

:10:28.:14:41.

House I have completed certification of the bill, as required by the

:14:42.:14:45.

standing order. And that I have made no change to the provisional

:14:46.:14:51.

certificate issued last week. Copies of my final certificate will be made

:14:52.:14:55.

available in the vote office and on the Parliamentary website.

:14:56.:15:01.

Understanding -- under standing order -- under the standing order,

:15:02.:15:06.

copies of the motions are available in the vote office and on the

:15:07.:15:09.

Parliamentary website and have been made available to members in the

:15:10.:15:16.

chamber. Does the Minister intend to move the consent motions? Indeed.

:15:17.:15:23.

Under standing order number 80 three a.m., subsection four, the House

:15:24.:15:29.

must resolve itself forthwith into the legislative grand committee,

:15:30.:15:33.

England and Wales, and thereafter into the legislative grand

:15:34.:15:34.

committee, England. Order, order. Order, order. There will now be a

:15:35.:16:00.

joint debate on the consent motion for England and Wales and the

:16:01.:16:04.

consent motion for England. I remind honourable members that although all

:16:05.:16:10.

members may speak in the debate, if there are divisions, on the members

:16:11.:16:14.

representing constituencies in England and Wales may vote on the

:16:15.:16:18.

consent motion for England and Wales and other those representing

:16:19.:16:20.

constituencies in England may vote in the consent motion for England. I

:16:21.:16:25.

call the Minister to move the consent motion for England and Wales

:16:26.:16:31.

undermine the Minister that under standing order 83 M, on moving the

:16:32.:16:34.

consent motion for England and Wales, he must also inform the

:16:35.:16:37.

committee of the terms of the consent motion for England.

:16:38.:16:42.

The question is the consent motion relating to England and Wales as on

:16:43.:16:49.

the notice paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:16:50.:16:55.

contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. I remind

:16:56.:17:07.

honourable members that if there is a division of the consent motion for

:17:08.:17:12.

England and Wales, only members representing constituencies in

:17:13.:17:16.

England and Wales may bode. This extends to expressing an opinion.

:17:17.:17:25.

The question is the consent motion relating to England and Wales as on

:17:26.:17:29.

the notice paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the

:17:30.:17:34.

contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Is this relating

:17:35.:17:47.

to England, that one there? Order, order. The House shall resolve

:17:48.:17:54.

itself into the legislative grand committee England. I remind

:17:55.:18:00.

honourable members that no further debate on the consent motion for

:18:01.:18:04.

England is permitted and if there is a division, only members

:18:05.:18:07.

representing constituencies in England may bode this extends to

:18:08.:18:14.

expressing an opinion. I called the Minister to move the consent motion

:18:15.:18:20.

formally. The question is the consent motion relating to England.

:18:21.:18:23.

As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:18:24.:18:28.

ayes habit, the ayes habit. Order, order.

:18:29.:18:54.

Order, order. The legislative grand committee, England and Wales, and

:18:55.:19:05.

legislative grand committee England have consented to the certified

:19:06.:19:09.

clauses of and the schedules to the policing and crime Bill and at the

:19:10.:19:13.

legislative grand committee England and Wales has agreed to the

:19:14.:19:17.

certified amendment made to the bill in the committee. Third reading.

:19:18.:19:30.

Queen's consent. Secretary of State to move the third reading. Miss is

:19:31.:19:42.

May. -- Theresa May. Since I became Home Secretary, I have put in place

:19:43.:19:51.

the most radical programme of police reform. But the task of reform is

:19:52.:19:56.

not yet finished. If we are to continue ensuring that the police

:19:57.:19:59.

can protect the most vulnerable in our society, if we are to continue

:20:00.:20:03.

helping the police build trust between themselves and the public

:20:04.:20:08.

and if we are to continue ensuring the police and other emergency

:20:09.:20:12.

services deliver for the tax payer and the policing and crime bill will

:20:13.:20:16.

allow us to do that. It will improve the efficiency and effectiveness of

:20:17.:20:22.

our emergency services by collaborating, it will enable police

:20:23.:20:28.

and crime commission nurse to take on the Fire Services, it will make

:20:29.:20:35.

changes to precharge bail, and it will ensure that those experiencing

:20:36.:20:40.

a mental health crisis receive the help they need rather than prolonged

:20:41.:20:44.

detention in a police cell and it will radically reformed the

:20:45.:20:48.

complaints and disciplinary systems to help strengthen public confidence

:20:49.:20:52.

and trust in policing, an outcome I know will be welcomed by the

:20:53.:20:55.

Hillsborough families who have campaigned tirelessly for effective

:20:56.:20:57.

accountability in policing when things go badly wrong. Through its

:20:58.:21:03.

passage in the House, the bill has been subject to many debates. I

:21:04.:21:07.

welcome the broad measure of cross-party support for many of its

:21:08.:21:12.

provisions. I particularly would like to commend the work of my right

:21:13.:21:18.

honourable and honourable friends and victims and the Minister for

:21:19.:21:23.

preventing abuse, exploitation and cramped together with all members.

:21:24.:21:31.

There have been a small number of areas of disagreement, most

:21:32.:21:37.

noticeably on the role of PCCs, the role of volunteers within police

:21:38.:21:42.

forces and the cut-off for taking disciplinary action against former

:21:43.:21:45.

police officers but I am pleased we have been able to make some

:21:46.:21:48.

progress. I am sure that all these issues will continue to be examined

:21:49.:21:52.

carefully as the bill makes its way to the Upper House but the process

:21:53.:21:57.

of scrutiny, the bill has woody been subject to, is greatly strengthened

:21:58.:22:02.

and improved. Among the important measures added to the bill at

:22:03.:22:06.

committee stage others to reform the governments of the IPCC, strengthen

:22:07.:22:10.

inspection powers, enhance the powers of the police to retain DNA

:22:11.:22:16.

and fingerprints of persons previously convicted of an offence,

:22:17.:22:22.

provide precharge bail conditions relating to travel, strengthen

:22:23.:22:26.

cross-border powers, confers lifelong anonymity on the victims of

:22:27.:22:31.

forced marriage and strengthen the safeguarding of vulnerable people

:22:32.:22:33.

through the introduction of statutory guidance. These additional

:22:34.:22:39.

measures alongside those contained within the bill upon its

:22:40.:22:41.

introduction will support the vital work of our police forces. They will

:22:42.:22:46.

put in place provisions to ensure the greater efficiency and

:22:47.:22:50.

effectiveness of our emergency services, introduced changes to

:22:51.:22:54.

protect the rights of the public, and they will provide important

:22:55.:22:58.

powers to help the police cut crime and keep our community safe. This

:22:59.:23:02.

bill will ensure that the police can continue to meet the challenges they

:23:03.:23:06.

face day in and day out and it will ensure we can get on with the

:23:07.:23:11.

important job of police reform and I commend the bill to the House. Mr

:23:12.:23:20.

Andy Burnham. The fairest thing we can say about this bill is that it

:23:21.:23:26.

is a decidedly mixed bag. On the one hand, it makes improvements to

:23:27.:23:30.

police accountability. On the other, we believe it undermines the

:23:31.:23:35.

independence of the Fire Service and indeed the police service by

:23:36.:23:41.

allowing volunteers to replace front-line staff. But it does leave

:23:42.:23:46.

this House in a better state than we found it and I would like to pay

:23:47.:23:53.

tribute to my Shadow ministerial team, all of whom have played an

:23:54.:23:58.

important part in improving this bill, and I would like to also thank

:23:59.:24:03.

the Home Secretary and her ministerial team for the

:24:04.:24:06.

constructive way in which they continue to debate these matters

:24:07.:24:10.

with us. Thanking all members of the bill committee, the chair of the

:24:11.:24:18.

committee. The bill does make real improvements. However, we have real

:24:19.:24:23.

concerns. The issues: the four categories, measures we support,

:24:24.:24:27.

measures we have helped improve, measures we oppose and the missed

:24:28.:24:31.

opportunities. I will go briefly through those four things. On the

:24:32.:24:35.

measures we support, the super complaint system is a genuine step

:24:36.:24:41.

forward and we congratulate the Home Secretary on bringing that to be

:24:42.:24:45.

house as we do the strengthening of the eye PCC and regulation of the

:24:46.:24:50.

police in general. We also believe the ban on the use of police cells

:24:51.:24:55.

in a mental health crisis is a crucially important step forward but

:24:56.:24:59.

it needs to be matched with a commissioning strategy in the NHS to

:25:00.:25:03.

make sure that there is alternative places of safety for people who no

:25:04.:25:07.

longer will be held in police cells. On the measures we have helped

:25:08.:25:11.

improve, I pay to be to my honourable friend for the work she

:25:12.:25:16.

has done to strengthen the measures on child sexual exploitation,

:25:17.:25:21.

particularly on the licensing regime for private hire vehicles and there

:25:22.:25:28.

are further improvements. On police bail, my honourable friend pushed

:25:29.:25:35.

the issue in committee based on the case of the individual who waltzed

:25:36.:25:43.

out of the country on police bail. I'm pleased the government has

:25:44.:25:48.

responded but Mark rally in evidence to the Select Committee still said

:25:49.:25:53.

that there should be the tightest of regimes whereby people have to

:25:54.:25:57.

surrender passports while still in the custody of police and the police

:25:58.:26:00.

station and I believe the bill could still be tightened on this

:26:01.:26:04.

particular point. We have had a good exchange today on police misconduct.

:26:05.:26:09.

We welcome the fact the government has been prepared to extend the

:26:10.:26:15.

12-month lament the exceptional instances of misconduct. We will

:26:16.:26:19.

work with the Home Secretary and police Minister on getting that

:26:20.:26:23.

right but that appears to be a genuine step forward. On the

:26:24.:26:28.

measures we oppose, there are two main measures. Firstly, we believe

:26:29.:26:34.

the greater use of volunteers in the police service is dangerous in the

:26:35.:26:39.

context of further cuts being made to police budgets. Contrary to what

:26:40.:26:45.

the government promised at the spending review, police services in

:26:46.:26:49.

England and Wales are facing real terms cuts to their budget this

:26:50.:26:55.

year, cuts which are not backfilled by the local precept. We believe to

:26:56.:27:00.

do this without setting out a vision for policing was saying precisely

:27:01.:27:04.

what the boundaries are of what volunteers can and cannot do is

:27:05.:27:08.

dangerous and the government needs to think again on this matter before

:27:09.:27:15.

going down this road. On the Fire Service, my honourable friend the

:27:16.:27:18.

West Ham made a powerful case saying we should not just merge the two and

:27:19.:27:24.

make the Fire Service the junior partner to the police services. This

:27:25.:27:30.

bill allows a hostile takeover effectively of a Fire Service,

:27:31.:27:34.

authorised by the Home Secretary but over and above the heads of local

:27:35.:27:38.

people without their consent and we do not believe that will strengthen

:27:39.:27:42.

the Fire Service. The Fire Service has an important role as a separate

:27:43.:27:46.

statutory service. The single employer model has not been fully

:27:47.:27:51.

debated in terms of all of its pros and cons and we feel this is a road

:27:52.:27:56.

down which the government should not go because they have failed to make

:27:57.:28:04.

the case for it. I will finish on the missed opportunities. I conclude

:28:05.:28:09.

this debate on this third reading with a sense that Parliament has

:28:10.:28:13.

missed a moment to make real changes on the back of the historic

:28:14.:28:19.

Hillsboro verdict. The day we debated two things, firstly that

:28:20.:28:24.

there should be a principle of equality in legal funding for

:28:25.:28:28.

bereaved families where police are represented. Secondly, we have

:28:29.:28:32.

debated the promised the Prime Minister made to the victims of

:28:33.:28:36.

press abuse and press intrusion, that there will be a second stage

:28:37.:28:40.

enquiry looking at the relationship between the police and the press. On

:28:41.:28:45.

both fronts, we have not made any progress tonight. It was

:28:46.:28:49.

disappointing the government chose to oppose the measures we want this

:28:50.:28:53.

side of the House put forward. Representatives of the Hillsborough

:28:54.:28:59.

support group were here today and I can say to the House that they have

:29:00.:29:04.

gone home disappointed and feeling the Parliament is already forgetting

:29:05.:29:09.

what their fight was all about. It was a monumental miscarriage of

:29:10.:29:13.

justice that now requires a commensurate response from this

:29:14.:29:18.

House, changes made to stop any family in future going through what

:29:19.:29:22.

they have been through but sadly families can still go through it

:29:23.:29:25.

because they can go into those inquests row with grief, facing QC's

:29:26.:29:34.

hide at great expense and face aggressive questioning and find the

:29:35.:29:39.

whole experience unsatisfactory as many families continue to do. It's

:29:40.:29:42.

disappointing to meet the government was not even able to accept the

:29:43.:29:47.

principle that we should have equal funding and it would have been a

:29:48.:29:50.

step forward had been been able to do that. I understand that they are

:29:51.:29:54.

asking Bishop James Jones to look at these matters tours but this goes

:29:55.:30:00.

broader than Hillsborough. This is about the fairness in our criminal

:30:01.:30:04.

justice system and I do believe that the government is missing an

:30:05.:30:09.

opportunity by not acting on this quickly. It is quite frankly obscene

:30:10.:30:13.

for police forces to continue to spend lots amounts of money hiring

:30:14.:30:18.

aggressive lawyers to challenge families in the way that they do at

:30:19.:30:22.

inquest. This is a scandal that should not be allowed to continue.

:30:23.:30:27.

We will continue to fight on this side of the House against it until

:30:28.:30:32.

there is real change. In conclusion, this was an opportunity to make this

:30:33.:30:37.

country fairer, even up the scales and tip them in the favour of

:30:38.:30:42.

ordinary families and away from the establishment but I fear we have

:30:43.:30:46.

power to do that will be up to the Other Place to see that can make

:30:47.:30:51.

progress. Who vote against the principle of equal funding for

:30:52.:30:56.

bereaved families? I can't believe that anybody actually would vote

:30:57.:31:00.

against it. There is a debate about how you achieve it but really,

:31:01.:31:03.

people can vote against that principle? I find that very strange

:31:04.:31:08.

indeed. And how can members tonight go through the lobbies, voting

:31:09.:31:12.

against the Prime Minister's commitment to the victims of

:31:13.:31:18.

hacking, press intrusion and abuse? The government has weakened its

:31:19.:31:22.

position night. It said there would be an enquiry and now it is a

:31:23.:31:26.

question of there might an enquiry once outstanding legal matters are

:31:27.:31:29.

concluded and that is not fair to those families who were given a firm

:31:30.:31:34.

promise from the Prime Minister. So this is my direct appeal to the

:31:35.:31:38.

Other Place, but the quality of legal funding for families, but for

:31:39.:31:42.

the honouring of that promise to the victims of press intrusion and make

:31:43.:31:46.

Hillsborough a moment of real change in this country.

:31:47.:31:50.

It is a pleasure to follow the Shadow Home Secretary. He was very

:31:51.:31:56.

generous with his praise to those involved in the Hillsborough

:31:57.:31:59.

campaign but I think the House should recognise is part in that

:32:00.:32:03.

campaign and the incredible work he has done. He spoke with great

:32:04.:32:08.

passion on this subject, even today and I think he should be commended

:32:09.:32:13.

for what he has done. It is not often that we come to praise the

:32:14.:32:19.

Government from the point of view of the Home Affairs Select Committee,

:32:20.:32:21.

but I think they have done quite well in this bill in picking up a

:32:22.:32:25.

number of the recommendations we have made about the detention of

:32:26.:32:30.

those in police cells, which is now going to be stopped, and in

:32:31.:32:35.

particular the provisions concerning the seizure of travel documents, of

:32:36.:32:40.

those who have committed or are suspected of committing criminal

:32:41.:32:47.

offences. We would like, we would have liked it if the Home Secretary

:32:48.:32:51.

had gone further, accepting the evidence of Mark Rowley, but she has

:32:52.:32:55.

gone a long way to dealing with the issues that we were concerned with

:32:56.:32:59.

and I am glad this provision is in the bill. The third recommendation

:33:00.:33:05.

she has accepted and which we are grateful for is that concerning the

:33:06.:33:12.

continuous time that people spend on bail. We sat and listened to the

:33:13.:33:19.

evidence of Paul Gambaccini and others who came before the

:33:20.:33:23.

committee, who could not understand why they'll kept being renewed month

:33:24.:33:27.

after month after month with nobody telling them what was going to

:33:28.:33:30.

happen. Reputations have been ruined as a result of this. I think of all

:33:31.:33:35.

the provisions in this bill, that will stand out. It means the police

:33:36.:33:41.

will not be able -- it does not mean the police will not be able to do

:33:42.:33:46.

that -- the job but people will not be held in limbo continuously. So we

:33:47.:33:50.

welcome the fact she has adopted all three of those measures we have put

:33:51.:33:54.

forward. I want to thank the Minister for policing, who is one of

:33:55.:33:56.

those rare ministers who actually rights to the committee and says, we

:33:57.:34:01.

have decided to take up your recommendations. This does not

:34:02.:34:06.

happen very often and the fact he did it shows the courtesy of the

:34:07.:34:09.

Minister but also his willingness to take on suggestions, obviously with

:34:10.:34:16.

the support of the Home Secretary. I agree very strongly with what the

:34:17.:34:20.

Shadow Home Secretary says about Levinson and I cannot understand the

:34:21.:34:24.

reluctance of the Government not to accept fact we will have to have a

:34:25.:34:29.

second enquiry. We do need that sickening choir. It was promised to

:34:30.:34:33.

myself and to the chair of the Justice committee. -- we do need

:34:34.:34:43.

that second enquiry. After Mr Speaker had granted the urgent

:34:44.:34:47.

question that resulted in the entire debate occurring on hacking. I think

:34:48.:34:54.

we should try and make sure that we have some kind of timetable that

:34:55.:34:59.

will give comfort to those who have been waiting for that second

:35:00.:35:05.

enquiry. In conclusion, at Home Office questions I mentioned the

:35:06.:35:07.

fact the Home Secretary is that the third longest Home Secretary in the

:35:08.:35:11.

history of our country. In fact, you have to look back to 1822 defined

:35:12.:35:19.

Viscount Sidmouth, who served for ten years, who served for longer

:35:20.:35:22.

than she has done. I do not know whether in fact that is going to be

:35:23.:35:29.

her fate, but... It is important to remember, there has a revolution in

:35:30.:35:33.

the policing landscape under this Home Secretary. Everything has been

:35:34.:35:37.

turned upside down. There have been massive changes. When she said the

:35:38.:35:45.

reform agenda has finished, when she said it is ongoing, it gave us

:35:46.:35:49.

trepidation because we would have to continue that scrutiny. But there

:35:50.:35:53.

are many good things in this bill. I'm sure we will return to Policing

:35:54.:35:57.

and Crime Bill again in this Parliament and I hope that the

:35:58.:36:02.

government will be able to accept even more recommendations that the

:36:03.:36:07.

Select Committee has put forward. The question is that the bill be

:36:08.:36:11.

read a third time. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the

:36:12.:36:13.

contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. The question is as on the

:36:14.:36:21.

order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary,

:36:22.:36:23.

"No." I think the ayes have it. Provision number three. As many as

:36:24.:36:27.

are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." I think the ayes

:36:28.:36:35.

have it. Provision number four. As many as are of the opinion say,

:36:36.:36:40.

"Aye," to the contrary, "No." The ayes have it. We now come to motion

:36:41.:36:45.

number five. Relating, I think to the Business Committee. Mr Bill

:36:46.:36:50.

Wiggins. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the

:36:51.:36:53.

opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." The ayes have it. Motion

:36:54.:36:57.

number six, the women and equality is committee. The question is as on

:36:58.:37:01.

the order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the

:37:02.:37:06.

contrary, "No." The ayes have it. Number seven, the Justice committee.

:37:07.:37:08.

As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." The

:37:09.:37:15.

ayes have it. We continue the adjournment. The question is that

:37:16.:37:20.

this House do adjourn. Mr Tim Farron. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The

:37:21.:37:27.

teddy bear wort is the coalbed adult mental health ward at the General

:37:28.:37:33.

Hospital, providing essential inpatient acute mental health

:37:34.:37:37.

services to people in South Lakeland and beyond. -- the Kent Amir Ward.

:37:38.:37:44.

Some weeks ago, the Cumbria partnership and NHS trust which

:37:45.:37:47.

looks after mental health in the county proposed closure of this war

:37:48.:37:50.

by the end of June. With new admissions ceasing at the end of May

:37:51.:37:57.

just gone. It is the second time in my time as an MP that this war has

:37:58.:38:02.

faced the threat of closure. Ten years ago, similar proposals to

:38:03.:38:09.

close the ward spark huge outcry from residents. Thousands of people

:38:10.:38:13.

signed petitions, wrote to health bosses and something like 3000 of us

:38:14.:38:16.

marched through Kendal town centre in pretty shocking weather to voice

:38:17.:38:24.

our opposition. The campaign took many months, but we won it. Our

:38:25.:38:27.

victory in saving the ward was a hugely important moment for our

:38:28.:38:31.

community, because mental health is so often a Thembu. The suffering of

:38:32.:38:37.

those living with mental health conditions and their families is so

:38:38.:38:43.

often done in silence, in private. In the face of a threat of the

:38:44.:38:46.

services that those with mental health conditions rely upon, far too

:38:47.:38:52.

many would choose to look the other way, but not in South Lakeland. That

:38:53.:38:56.

campaign should that local people are prepared to stand up in

:38:57.:39:01.

solidarity with those living with mental health conditions and with

:39:02.:39:05.

their families. So I am extremely proud of my community and in the

:39:06.:39:09.

face of this latest threats, the character of our community is once

:39:10.:39:14.

again shining through. Westmorland General Hospital is the main

:39:15.:39:17.

hospital which serves the Lake District. And much of the rest of

:39:18.:39:23.

rule Southern Cumbria. I have learned over the years that the

:39:24.:39:28.

tendency to overlook the health needs of rural communities like ours

:39:29.:39:31.

means that I need to be permanently vigilant in my defence and promotion

:39:32.:39:37.

of our hospital. The campaigns we have run to win new counter

:39:38.:39:43.

services, to prevent closure of the hospital itself and to increase

:39:44.:39:47.

surgery at West Mall in general are testament to the fact that ours is a

:39:48.:39:51.

special community that will fight with unique energy and tenacity for

:39:52.:39:55.

decent mental and physical health care that is high-quality and

:39:56.:40:00.

accessible. Once again, it would appear that we must roll up our

:40:01.:40:03.

sleeves and fight to defend our services. As I said, this ward

:40:04.:40:10.

provides 12 beds, the majority of which are usually full at any given

:40:11.:40:15.

time and the people occupying these beds are often suffering from the

:40:16.:40:17.

most serious of mental health conditions. For much of the time,

:40:18.:40:23.

the majority of patients staying on the ward are under section. The

:40:24.:40:28.

apparent trigger for the proposed closure came after Cumbria

:40:29.:40:32.

partnership trust was inspected as part of the CQC both my

:40:33.:40:35.

comprehensive expansion programme last November. The report published

:40:36.:40:40.

in March awarded a rating of requires improvement to the teddy

:40:41.:40:46.

bear Macca one. The CQC highlighted particular concerns relating to

:40:47.:40:50.

privacy, access to outdoor areas and the internal physical structure of

:40:51.:40:55.

the ward. Having visited the ward myself recently, I have to say that

:40:56.:41:02.

the quality of staffing and patient care is absolutely outstanding. In

:41:03.:41:06.

fact, the CQC was surprised itself that the trust's response to the

:41:07.:41:12.

report was to close the ward, believing the upgrades needed to

:41:13.:41:16.

meet required standards were perfectly feasible. This is a ward

:41:17.:41:20.

providing excellent care and outstanding staff in a physical

:41:21.:41:23.

setting that requires some improvement. It does not require

:41:24.:41:28.

closure and indeed the CQC has been quite clear that they did not

:41:29.:41:32.

recommend closure or anything of the sort. So the ward is Citroen is --

:41:33.:41:38.

situation in Westmorland General Hospital. The partnership

:41:39.:41:42.

responsible for mental health in Cumbria are tenants of the more can

:41:43.:41:46.

be hospitals trust. The hospital is fairly moderate with plenty of car

:41:47.:41:50.

parking and a beautiful setting looking out towards the Lakeland

:41:51.:41:54.

fells. If you had to go to hospital, I cannot think of anywhere more

:41:55.:41:59.

pleasant you could be, which is not an important one we are talking

:42:00.:42:02.

about supporting people living with mental health conditions. The

:42:03.:42:06.

hospital building is not full. There is a great deal of space on the site

:42:07.:42:11.

will stop ward space that is either not used or underused. There are

:42:12.:42:18.

enormous opportunities to seek more spacious, more suitable, better

:42:19.:42:19.

quality accommodation elsewhere in the hospital. It is clear that the

:42:20.:42:26.

Kentmere ward needs upgrading. It is not ideal but it is on the first

:42:27.:42:30.

floor, it could do with more space for the unit and greater privacy for

:42:31.:42:35.

the patients. There will be projected costs of can the new

:42:36.:42:38.

building to meet requirements of an upgrade and the Minister may have

:42:39.:42:42.

seen those projections. They will no doubt be expensive. In conclusion,

:42:43.:42:45.

the Minister is probably meant to draw -- the conclusion, is that the

:42:46.:42:52.

only affordable solution is to close the ward. The Minister is expected

:42:53.:42:57.

to read his brief and fob me off. I rate him highly and I know he has

:42:58.:43:03.

much better judgment than that. The reality is, the needs of patients in

:43:04.:43:08.

South Lakeland could be met on the current Westmorland General Hospital

:43:09.:43:12.

site and an immediate project should be launched alongside the hospital's

:43:13.:43:16.

trust to ensure there is a larger unit with a groan for access, with

:43:17.:43:21.

greater levels of gender segregation, greater privacy,

:43:22.:43:24.

greater dignity and greater safety. If there is a will, then the wait is

:43:25.:43:30.

staring you in the face. But whatever the challenges, in my

:43:31.:43:35.

conversations with patients, their families, staff, the CQC and with

:43:36.:43:40.

the trust, it is obvious that there are serious concerns about the

:43:41.:43:44.

detrimental impact that closure will have on patients' conditions. Happy

:43:45.:43:53.

to give way. What you are saying echoes so much of what happened in

:43:54.:43:56.

York when the hospital closed nine months ago. The consequence has been

:43:57.:44:02.

loss of life to my constituents and it seems that the primacy of

:44:03.:44:07.

decision-making is not in the clinical need but more on the

:44:08.:44:10.

physical environment. That has to be wrong. Does it not? I am grateful

:44:11.:44:15.

for her intervention. I express solidarity with her campaign that

:44:16.:44:20.

she is running in York. It is a great concern to me that the CQC

:44:21.:44:24.

will make recommendations that will require improvement and potentially

:44:25.:44:31.

not offer solutions to maintain a plausible and sustainable provision

:44:32.:44:37.

instead. We have to make a judgment and that judgment as to be, is a

:44:38.:44:43.

good service that is not perfect, better than no service and the

:44:44.:44:46.

answer is going to be yes. I am very grateful to her for her

:44:47.:44:54.

intervention. So with regard to the Kentmere ward had Westmorland

:44:55.:44:57.

General Hospital, the quality of care, as I have said, is excellent.

:44:58.:45:02.

That is stated in the report. The staff are excellent. The ward needs

:45:03.:45:08.

upgrading but the closure would harm the health of some of the most

:45:09.:45:14.

vulnerable people in our community. It is utterly unacceptable that

:45:15.:45:16.

those people will have to be shipped off to Barrow, White Heaven or

:45:17.:45:21.

Carlisle rather than being treated -- Whitehaven. Rather than being

:45:22.:45:28.

treated much closer. There is no guarantee that those in our distant

:45:29.:45:30.

wards will have the capacity to accommodate them. Agents sometimes

:45:31.:45:34.

have an immense journey to Manchester, for example. For many

:45:35.:45:39.

less well-off residents, a round trip to alternative wards of to 100

:45:40.:45:44.

miles and many hours on the bus or train will put family and loved ones

:45:45.:45:49.

beyond easy reach. It is the patients who would be harmed as they

:45:50.:45:53.

are cut off from families and friends, miss out on all important

:45:54.:45:58.

visits instead of reassurance of familiar faces and surroundings,

:45:59.:46:01.

they would face a dark time alone and in an unknown place. Happy to

:46:02.:46:09.

give way. Would he be aware of any issues for veterans' organisations?

:46:10.:46:18.

They are very clearly... Ten o'clock motion. Will he be aware of any need

:46:19.:46:29.

to address that issue? In my constituency, there are lots of

:46:30.:46:33.

veterans that need help and I'm sure it's the same for him. The

:46:34.:46:40.

honourable gentleman draws attention to an extremely important matter. It

:46:41.:46:47.

seems to me that we are so happy to see the loyal service of brave women

:46:48.:46:51.

and men who put their lives on the line for us return from duty and are

:46:52.:46:58.

so often dropped and we see incidences of mental health concerns

:46:59.:47:01.

for them and their family in the years after they return and we need

:47:02.:47:09.

to provide the support that we should and that can sometimes be

:47:10.:47:12.

provided by a community but sometimes it needs to be provided in

:47:13.:47:20.

a physical setting as well. A recent government report showed that the

:47:21.:47:27.

closure of this particular ward in South Lakeland would leave our part

:47:28.:47:33.

of the world with the worst access to mental health services in the

:47:34.:47:42.

entire United Kingdom because out of the 6000 open ward stays, just in

:47:43.:47:50.

England, over the last year, only 263, 4%, receive care 30 miles or

:47:51.:47:55.

more away from the place that they lived. The closure of the board

:47:56.:48:01.

would leave vast numbers of residents, including all of Kent and

:48:02.:48:05.

many other rural areas further than this from the services and the

:48:06.:48:11.

closest alternative is in Barrow 35 miles away. The most likely

:48:12.:48:26.

alternatives are even further still. The provision of replacement,

:48:27.:48:30.

community support which has been offered to compensate for the

:48:31.:48:35.

closure of the ward, would be quite inadequate. Community support would

:48:36.:48:39.

of course be welcomed but that must be in addition to the 12 bed unit.

:48:40.:48:46.

Increasingly, the majority of patients in the unit are under

:48:47.:48:51.

section and one cannot section people in the community. When people

:48:52.:48:56.

are sectioned, there is an immense impact on our local police force.

:48:57.:49:01.

Closure of the unit would need that our local police force who are

:49:02.:49:04.

already heavily stretched, under resourced and under pressure would

:49:05.:49:09.

have to take patients vast distances across Cumbria to far-off mental

:49:10.:49:13.

health units, taking them off the beaten is threatening the safety and

:49:14.:49:17.

security of our rural communities. The last time I spent a night out on

:49:18.:49:21.

the beat with our local police force I was stunned by how much of their

:49:22.:49:25.

time was spent dealing with various kinds of mental health issues. It

:49:26.:49:29.

was pretty much all they did on that occasion. Police officers locally

:49:30.:49:33.

tell me that up to half their workload can involve dealing with

:49:34.:49:37.

people living with mental conditions and their dedication and compassion

:49:38.:49:42.

in being the first line of support for incredibly vulnerable and

:49:43.:49:46.

distress people and their families is overwhelming. I am proud of them

:49:47.:49:50.

per hour police are already working beyond their physical capacity. The

:49:51.:49:53.

closure of the ward would just add to that pressure and it is

:49:54.:49:58.

unacceptable. Local people recognise the damage closure of the ward will

:49:59.:50:05.

have an patient welfare and are once again uniting to make their concerns

:50:06.:50:08.

heard as we stand together to fight the British stop to the proposed

:50:09.:50:13.

closure. There has been an overwhelming response of local

:50:14.:50:17.

people to the campaign and as of today, our petition has reached 5500

:50:18.:50:22.

signatures. Last week, we were encouraged in the face of such

:50:23.:50:27.

massive public opposition, we were able to secure a much welcomed a

:50:28.:50:32.

temporary victory. The trust announced a final decision is to be

:50:33.:50:35.

postponed while they look at whether the board can be upgraded and

:50:36.:50:41.

improved to meet CTC standards, meaning the board stay open and

:50:42.:50:44.

continuing to admit patients over the summer. The vulnerable patients

:50:45.:50:48.

I met over the weekend are continuing to get treatment close to

:50:49.:50:52.

home and if we had not achieved this victory, they would have already

:50:53.:50:56.

been carted off to Barrow or Carlisle, far from home and loved

:50:57.:51:02.

ones. News that new admissions will continue to be made is also welcome.

:51:03.:51:06.

I welcome to the trust for listening to our concerns and thinking again

:51:07.:51:09.

and I would like to personally thank every single one of the thousands of

:51:10.:51:12.

local people involved in our campaign. We forced the trust hold

:51:13.:51:18.

back on closure and we are especially grateful to volunteers

:51:19.:51:24.

who have sown such strong support for the campaign but this is only a

:51:25.:51:30.

temporary reprieve. Our work is far from complete. My message is that

:51:31.:51:36.

this is the moment to step up our campaign, energised and encouraged

:51:37.:51:42.

by this success, spurred on by victories and campaigns for a

:51:43.:51:45.

hospital and my message to patients and their families is that we will

:51:46.:51:48.

stand with you and we will not give up because we must not give up. It

:51:49.:51:52.

was very clear from my discussions with the trust of the last few days

:51:53.:51:57.

that their default position is still to close its ward. I have one very

:51:58.:52:02.

specific request of the government this evening, for the Minister

:52:03.:52:06.

instruct the Cumbria partnership trust not to close this vital board?

:52:07.:52:13.

Wabi trust looks a upgrade options alternatives, I asked him to make it

:52:14.:52:16.

very clear that the closure is of the table. I have spoken to many

:52:17.:52:28.

local residents about this but the conversation I had with one lady has

:52:29.:52:30.

particularly struck me hard. She is regularly treated for her mental

:52:31.:52:33.

health and she was distressed by the thought of having to travel miles

:52:34.:52:35.

from home to receive care if the ward were to close. Her condition

:52:36.:52:38.

has been visibly exacerbated by the tangible threat from this proposal

:52:39.:52:43.

so a decision by the Minister to instruct the trust not go ahead with

:52:44.:52:46.

closure could directly alleviate this lady's worry and anxiety and

:52:47.:52:51.

anxiety and many more like her. The long-term effects of closing the

:52:52.:52:55.

unit will be far greater than the short-term savings. If the

:52:56.:52:59.

government is serious about mental health, they must put words into

:53:00.:53:00.

action and prove it by stepping in and

:53:01.:53:14.

preventing closure of this vital ward which will be a serious

:53:15.:53:16.

backward step for mental health care in South Lakeland. The Minister has

:53:17.:53:18.

the opportunity to prevent that closure. I ask him now to take the

:53:19.:53:23.

opportunity and save the ward. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker, and I

:53:24.:53:31.

rise to acknowledge that there is no pressure here from the right

:53:32.:53:37.

honourable member. Can I thank my friend on securing this debate and

:53:38.:53:42.

indeed for his vigilance in phrasing such an important subject which

:53:43.:53:45.

matters a great deal to his constituents? I would like to go on

:53:46.:53:49.

record right away my appreciation for the work done by the NHS in

:53:50.:53:52.

Cumbria and to thank the staff for their hard work and commitment

:53:53.:53:56.

patients. Can I also acknowledge what my right honourable friend said

:53:57.:54:01.

in relation to police as those of us and the Chamber who know about these

:54:02.:54:05.

matters no, the police do a great deal of work? The crisis care,

:54:06.:54:13.

piloted by the right honourable friend, has made a considerable

:54:14.:54:17.

contribution to the way in which we look after those with mental health

:54:18.:54:20.

issues at times of crisis in which the police had been intimately

:54:21.:54:23.

involved and I fully accept what he says about the amount of work which

:54:24.:54:28.

they are involved in in South Lakeland in this respect. I am very

:54:29.:54:37.

fond of South Lakeland. I remember the area extremely well. It's a

:54:38.:54:41.

beautiful area and its constituents are entitled to a good service from

:54:42.:54:46.

an MP and also the best quality services. Let me turn immediately to

:54:47.:54:52.

be subject of the debate. The trust announced in May its decision to

:54:53.:54:57.

close Kent made unit following information from Singh QC which

:54:58.:55:01.

highlighted the environmental constraints on the unit. It is an

:55:02.:55:06.

urgent mix text unit with no access to outdoor space. His concerns and

:55:07.:55:12.

comments have been widely reported. As the right honourable member

:55:13.:55:16.

knows, and despite what he said, this is a matter for the local NHS.

:55:17.:55:20.

Neither I nor any other Minister have a role in what decisions are

:55:21.:55:24.

taken and the honourable lady who speaks so forth that is forcibly

:55:25.:55:30.

knows that also very well. However, I understand it is he rightly says

:55:31.:55:34.

that the NHS is the unit will not close as announced and decisions

:55:35.:55:38.

will depend on further work. It is therefore worth setting out what the

:55:39.:55:43.

backgrounders and indicate the interest I happen making sure that

:55:44.:55:47.

the best possible services are provided while recognising that the

:55:48.:55:51.

ministers and NHS are not quite as they were. Mental health services

:55:52.:55:58.

for Cumbria are commissioned by NHS Cumbria clinical commissioning

:55:59.:56:02.

group. The Cumbrian foundation trust is the provider the mental health

:56:03.:56:06.

services in Cumbria. It is been working on a new mental health

:56:07.:56:09.

strategy sometime. It's fair to say that one of the problems of the NHS

:56:10.:56:13.

in common with other public services that it faces in Cumbria is

:56:14.:56:21.

geography. It is a big region in terms of area and is difficult to

:56:22.:56:24.

travel between the smaller towns because the roads are often slow.

:56:25.:56:28.

This means that difficult decisions about where and how to provide

:56:29.:56:34.

services have to be made by the NHS. Each local community cannot have

:56:35.:56:37.

everything available. While cost is a real factor, the main problem is

:56:38.:56:43.

maintaining quality. It's not about saving pennies but making sure that

:56:44.:56:49.

the quality of services high. Like everyone else, NHS clinicians learn

:56:50.:56:51.

and improve the experience. Skills not being used decline.

:56:52.:57:08.

Facilities seeing only a few patients lack the patients needed to

:57:09.:57:10.

ensure services remain high quality. The cost of employing staff is the

:57:11.:57:13.

main factor driving the cost of services, providing services from a

:57:14.:57:15.

greater number of locations means more services. The NHS finds larger

:57:16.:57:18.

units do better in terms of patient outcomes but the question then is

:57:19.:57:22.

where those larger units should be located. Inevitably, decisions taken

:57:23.:57:29.

by the NHS will disappoint those areas chosen. NHS services in

:57:30.:57:34.

Cumbria overall are facing a range of challenges and in many cases the

:57:35.:57:38.

reasons are the same. The northern part of the area is part of a

:57:39.:57:43.

success regime aimed at improving or patient services and the issues are

:57:44.:57:50.

well known. It's against this background that the NHS is

:57:51.:57:55.

considering what happens and what is best for the right honourable

:57:56.:57:59.

gentleman's constituents. Cumbria partnership announced on the 17th of

:58:00.:58:04.

May that the unit would close from the end of June 20 16. At the same

:58:05.:58:11.

time, it was announced the places safety would close at the end of

:58:12.:58:16.

May. The trust said the decision was due to quality and safety concerns

:58:17.:58:23.

raised by CQC. They inspected the unit in November 2015 and the report

:58:24.:58:28.

was published in March. CQC says the decision to close the ward and the

:58:29.:58:34.

health placed place of safety is however not a necessary outcome of

:58:35.:58:38.

these findings of the CQC inspection which the right honourable gentleman

:58:39.:58:44.

referred to. In short, were identified problems, the report did

:58:45.:58:46.

not recommend the closure of the unit. The report clearly highlighted

:58:47.:58:52.

concerns about the ward environment which it said placed service users

:58:53.:58:56.

at risk and did not support good care and treatment. Something needs

:58:57.:59:01.

to be done about those concerns. The unit which treats men and women does

:59:02.:59:07.

not meet minimum standards on single sex accommodation and has poor

:59:08.:59:10.

access to outside space. As I understand it, one issue is that

:59:11.:59:14.

privacy for bathing and sleeping cannot be guaranteed in the mixed

:59:15.:59:19.

ward. This poses an obvious risk to patients. The 25th of May, the trust

:59:20.:59:24.

gave reassurance that the closure would be temporary and the

:59:25.:59:27.

timescales for the closure would be reviewed. I now understand that

:59:28.:59:33.

following discussions with the CQC and commissioners, any decisions on

:59:34.:59:40.

will now be delayed to allow further exploration of what improvements can

:59:41.:59:43.

be made. More needs to be done and I will say a bit about that later. It

:59:44.:59:46.

says here that the trust accepts it does not get its message is right on

:59:47.:59:49.

the closure and the House can probably agree very strongly with

:59:50.:59:54.

that. Many honourable members will be aware of similar experiences in

:59:55.:59:58.

other areas. The NHS needs to think carefully about how it communicates

:59:59.:00:01.

with patients and the public, particularly when the news is not

:00:02.:00:06.

good. Fax me to be clearly set out in is important not to brush the

:00:07.:00:11.

announcements are surely. The circumstances reminded me of the

:00:12.:00:16.

hospital and York last year in the constituency of the honourable lady.

:00:17.:00:21.

There are differences in the CQC recommended closure on patient

:00:22.:00:25.

safety grounds which is not the case here. But the report repair juiced a

:00:26.:00:32.

number of observations about how difficult processes like this need

:00:33.:00:37.

to be handled by the NHS and I have discussed this matter with the

:00:38.:00:40.

honourable lady and would be happy to do so with the honourable

:00:41.:00:47.

gentleman. These are difficult decisions to get right. Safety

:00:48.:00:50.

considerations really matter. Identifying things that need to be

:00:51.:00:54.

put right have to be put right that the question then becomes how to do

:00:55.:00:58.

it at what timescale and what the various options are. But handling

:00:59.:01:04.

these difficult decisions and the way in which it has not been well

:01:05.:01:10.

handled reminds us of how important it is to get the decisions right. So

:01:11.:01:17.

that report in relation to own the decisions of communicating those

:01:18.:01:20.

decisions has been made public and I have placed a copy of that report in

:01:21.:01:21.

the library. We have moved in the space of a few

:01:22.:01:31.

weeks in respect of Kentmere ward to the unit remaining open while more

:01:32.:01:36.

work is completed. The safety of patients has to be primary concern

:01:37.:01:40.

and we would be failing patients if the NHS continued to tolerate the

:01:41.:01:45.

risk to the quality and safety of care the environment at Kentmere

:01:46.:01:48.

places on local services, something needs to be done and it is up to the

:01:49.:01:52.

local NHS to decide what that is. But I do not think it will do it on

:01:53.:01:57.

its own, which is where the right honourable gentleman and coming. The

:01:58.:02:03.

CCG recognises that mental health services in country need to improve

:02:04.:02:08.

and has already involved service users, families and carers on this

:02:09.:02:12.

project. Much of the work so far has shown that patients want better

:02:13.:02:15.

services closer to home in the local community. Later this year, NHS

:02:16.:02:23.

Cumbria CCG will be consulting about the future configurations of adult

:02:24.:02:26.

inpatient mental health beds across Cumbria. That will ensure they have

:02:27.:02:32.

the right beds in the right place, a sustainable service which the local

:02:33.:02:36.

NHS can staff for the future. Cumbria CCG has already said it will

:02:37.:02:40.

not support any permanent service change at Kentmere without full

:02:41.:02:45.

public consultation. In preparation for this, the CCG is looking at the

:02:46.:02:51.

current configurations of adult inpatient mental health beds,

:02:52.:02:54.

benchmarking how they are managing mental health needs across Cumbria

:02:55.:02:57.

with other mental health providers and advising on errors were the NHS

:02:58.:03:02.

needs to develop services to meet future needs. -- areas. The CCG also

:03:03.:03:07.

needs to make sure it has the right kind of beds in place. Facilities

:03:08.:03:13.

for children and good book older adults site created -- psychiatric

:03:14.:03:17.

intensive care beds. I am very grateful. Just to point out, there

:03:18.:03:23.

is not a single tear for adolescent or child mental health bed in the

:03:24.:03:29.

whole of the country of Cumbria. Of those 12 beds at Kentmere, they are

:03:30.:03:35.

full and the majority are people under section. The opportunity for

:03:36.:03:38.

there to be community options or the fact there is some kind of lack of

:03:39.:03:45.

demand would not be the case. I take his point, I cannot be as Ofere with

:03:46.:03:52.

the situation as he would be but I would say in general, I fully

:03:53.:03:56.

understand the point. There is a tremendous move towards improving

:03:57.:03:59.

community services, which is important and vital in its own right

:04:00.:04:05.

but it cannot be a total substitute for inpatient acute beds. I

:04:06.:04:09.

understand his point and that is my view and that of the department.

:04:10.:04:12.

Getting the right balance is important but the one is not a cheap

:04:13.:04:17.

substitute for the other. But it is an important component part. The

:04:18.:04:21.

more that can be done in the community to keep people away from

:04:22.:04:25.

acute beds to make sure they do not need that, that is particularly

:04:26.:04:29.

important. But I entirely take his point. NHS Cumbria is working with

:04:30.:04:39.

its providers, namely the foundation trust, commission service users and

:04:40.:04:42.

carers to help develop the model of care needed for the future, to

:04:43.:04:46.

deliver its vision of improved mental health care and sustainable

:04:47.:04:50.

services. I'm told the consultation will be carried out in line with

:04:51.:04:53.

best practice and latest Government guidance. There will be sessions for

:04:54.:04:58.

stakeholders and the public to share their views, ideas and concerns and

:04:59.:05:02.

having spoken to Health Service juice this afternoon in preparation

:05:03.:05:07.

for this debate, I do know how seriously they take the point of

:05:08.:05:10.

consultation -- Health Service chiefs. And how they are open to the

:05:11.:05:17.

consultation. So I would urge the right honourable member and his

:05:18.:05:20.

constituents to fully involve themselves in that consultation,

:05:21.:05:24.

which will shape whatever happens to Kentmere in the long term. Much as I

:05:25.:05:28.

must resist his temptation that I should decide configurations of

:05:29.:05:33.

services, I cannot, it would be outside my authority. So I say to

:05:34.:05:39.

all colleagues in the House, good night and good luck. The question is

:05:40.:05:44.

that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of the opinion say,

:05:45.:05:49.

"Aye," to the contrary, "No." I think the ayes have it. Order,

:05:50.:05:50.

order. We support wholeheartedly the

:05:51.:06:52.

implementation of the improved rights for carers, that is by the

:06:53.:06:58.

care act of 2014. Providing funding to local authorities. We are

:06:59.:07:04.

committed to continue to improve support for carers through the

:07:05.:07:09.

publication of a new national strategy by the end of 2016. I thank

:07:10.:07:17.

the Minister for his response. Research shows that the older the

:07:18.:07:23.

carer, the more hours of care they provide and that surely cannot be

:07:24.:07:30.

right. Many carers over 80 are providing as much as 50 hours of

:07:31.:07:31.

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