07/07/2016 House of Commons


07/07/2016

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actions are disgraceful, and when the acting the way we have seen in

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recent weeks, there is absolutely lead no excuse but authorities not

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to put them in court where they belong. We now come to the select

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committee statement. Doctor Julian Lewis will speak on the subject for

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up to ten minutes, during which no interventions can be taken. At the

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conclusion of the statement, I will call on members to make comments.

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Members can expect to be called only once. Interventions should be

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questions and should be brief. The front bench may take part in the

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questioning. Thank you. I am grateful for this opportunity to lay

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before the house, the defence committee's report entitled Russian

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Implications For Uk Defence And Implications For Uk Defence And

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Security, which has been produced on the eve of the Nato or for summit

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and highlights the need for that major event to focus on defence,

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deterrence, but also dialogue. I am extremely grateful to all the

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members of the select committee for their contributions to the genesis

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of this report. We held for oral evidence sessions, we also received

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18 pieces of written evidence and a delegation from the committee spent

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a visit in Moscow, ably led by my honourable friend for North

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Wiltshire, where the attempted to engage with the Russian authorities.

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Because of the current state of relations, however, Russian

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government authorities were reluctant to engage, but they

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acquired much of useful information on that visit. Russia's annexation

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of Crimea and the invasion of eastern Ukraine have undermined the

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post-Cold War assumption of a stable Europe, with a military threat to

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Nato is now. The north Atlantic Alliance must therefore restored its

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defences, refutes deterrence and reopen is dialogue with the Russian

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the UK were taken by surprise by the the UK were taken by surprise by the

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interventions in Ukraine shows a failure to comprehend President

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Putin's determination to maintain a sphere of influence beyond Russia's

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own borders, and if necessary, to do so by force. His stands directly

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contradicts the rules -based international order that Western

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democracy seeks to promote. Russia has become increasingly active, not

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all me in conventional warfare, but in unconventional methods, often

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deniable, which are designed to fall below the threshold that would

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trigger a two's Article five guarantee. Article five is of course

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the undertaking to consider an armed attack against one Nato member state

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as an attack against them all. The creation of the very high readiness

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joint task force among Nato member states and the enhanced for presence

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on needle's contested eastern flank, are steps in the right direction.

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But our report warns, the task force has only been formed recently and

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it's capacity to deploy the necessary forces within the required

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time frame is yet unproven. Among the report's recommendations for

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Nato are, first, to recognise the extent of Russian reed

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militarisation and to respond to it robustly. Secondly, to review the

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affected list of current deterrent policy against nuclear conventional

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and hybrid or multi dimensional warfare. Thirdly, to determine

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whether the 1987 intermediate treaty whether the 1987 intermediate treaty

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is in need of repair or replacement in the light of allegations that

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Russia has reached its provisions. Fourthly, to set out the timetable

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for the Trident successor submarine debate, and the decision in

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parliament, as we say, without further delay. Indeed, to hope that

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debate before the summer recess. This way, to encourage renewal of EU

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wide sanctions against Russia and to consider extending them to a larger

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group among the Kremlin leadership and 63, to accept that it is, as we

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state, perfectly possible to confront and constrain an adversary

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in a region where our interests clash, while operating with him to

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some degree in a region where they call inside. We regard the threat

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posed by Daesh, Al-Qaeda and other international terrorists as a

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convergence of Nato and Russian convergence of Nato and Russian

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interests. I am glad to see the minister assenting to that

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proposition. The committee believes that Russian cyber attacks are

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crossed Europe and their territorial seizures in Georgia and Ukraine may

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not be isolated actions, but may be symptomatic of a wider ambition to

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restore Moscow's global influence. However, because Russia is a global

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power, there remain opportunities for cooperation if we can but grasp

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them. Yet with relations at an all-time low, our report concludes

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that the UK must urgently boost its capture of Russian specialists. We

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must restore and maintain a high level of expertise for the

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foreseeable future. Even the current climate, the defence at a shoe's

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office in Moscow, for example, must be properly staffed by the end of

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the year. Since the end of the Cold War, Russia has not been a UK

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priority and our expertise in this field has withered on the vine. The

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UK needs a vastly strengthen body of experts, who can help provide an

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effective response to the challenges which Russia now poses. We cannot

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hope to understand Russia without a forthright dialogue, and I'm under

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current conditions of mistrust, we run the risk of blundering into

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conflicts that may be preventable through better communication. The

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by military confrontation, but also by military confrontation, but also

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of Marxism - Leninism, with its of Marxism - Leninism, with its

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formidable appeal to impressionable minds inside the Kremlin's targeted

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countries. No such totalitarian doctrine applies to present-day

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Russia, which for all its nationalist and expansionist

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tendencies, is itself under threat from revolutionary Islamism, the

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brutal successor to the equally brutal Nazi and Communist creeds

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which blighted so much of the 20th century. Therein lies the basis for

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provided that our dialogue with provided that our dialogue with

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Russia is from a position of strength, based on sound defences

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and credible deterrence. Thank you very much. May I say, it is a

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privilege to serve on the Defence Select Committee so ably chaired by

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my honourable friend. I hope he would agree with me that one of the

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things that was clear from our report is that lack of dialogue and

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understanding between our colleagues in Russia and ourselves, not only in

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terms of language, but also in terms of shared history, and would he

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agree that in light of the upcoming Nato summit, we need to review that

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as part of our wider engagement with Russia and about how they perceive

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the threat from Nato? Yes, indeed. I thank the honourable lady, who is a

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tremendously supportive member of the committee. This is her first

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Parliamentary term, but she has made a great start. I do emphasise again

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what I said about the importance of dialogue with Russia. The fact

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remains that different societies remains that different societies

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develop at different stages and they go through different phases in their

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attitude to their relationships with the rest of the world. One mistake

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that the West clearly made after the downfall of communism was too evil

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pedigree of triumphalism at a time when magnanimity would have been

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more appropriate. I think the West makes a terrible mistake if they

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fail to recognise that Russia is, and always has been, a great power.

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And what we have to do is reach out the hand of friendship while trying

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to discourage those aspects of the Russian tradition that seek to

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dominate lands the envelope borders. The fact is, they are a pretty large

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landmass themselves, and one would hope they could make a success of

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running their own country without feeling the need to impose their

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will on their neighbours. Potential Russian expansionism must be

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deterred by Nato by a fist of steel, there's no question of that at all,

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moment, we don't understand Russia moment, we don't understand Russia

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and we don't understand what they're doing and we have to find better

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ways of understanding them and talking to them about it. One area

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where we simply don't know is in the high North, in the Arctic, they are

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without question expanding their without question expanding their

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military capabilities there. We don't know why. One area of the

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report wasn't able to look into was what they're doing in the Arctic and

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Indeed, in the report, we dropped a Indeed, in the report, we dropped a

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very broad hint that the area of the Arctic, the high North, is something

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that deserves special attention and I strongly suspect that, if and when

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the committee takes a decision to give it that special attention, my

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honourable friend who has led the way with his all-party group on the

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polar regions, in alerting the country to the significance of this

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area, will be playing a very prominent part in deed. First of

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committee members for a committee members for a

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comprehensive and thorough report on comprehensive and thorough report on

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this very important area of the UK's and Europe's defence and security.

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The enquiry didn't have time to consider the implications of Brexit

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in full, given that tactics are often about destabilising Europe,

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does he think it is vital for the UK does he think it is vital for the UK

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to make sure that Brexit does not undermine the political cohesion of

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Nato? I'm going to issue the answer to that is yes, and as such, has the

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committee given any preliminary thoughts as to how that might come

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about? First of all, they are welcome the honourable member for

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Norwich South to his new responsibilities, and may I say a

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personal message of appreciation for his past service in the territorial

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Army, which included a spell of active service in Afghanistan. I

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hope the members of the Armed Forces, particularly those who have

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seen armed service and dangerous parts of the world, in the highest

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respect and I'm sure we will all this and with very great attention

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to the contributions of the honourable gentleman.

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In relation to Brexit, I do not think I am giving up trade secrets

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when I say this has been discussed as one of the major strands of the

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forthcoming work of the committee. It is certainly the case that that

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ought to be no need for anyone to feel that security arrangements have

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been undermined in any way, if only because the almost complete overlap

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between the membership of the EU and the mentorship of the North Atlantic

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Treaty Organisation. I am quite certain that the structures of the

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North Atlantic Treaty Organisation will be perfectly capable of

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carrying forward the security relationships without any form of

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distortion by any other organisation that might have been tempted to

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duplicate them. And Nato will indeed be one of the principal fora for

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ensuring that the communications that are so important between the

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United Kingdom and our friends and allies on the continent will be able

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to proceed absolutely uninterruptedly as a result of the

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change that is going to take place. Could I to welcome the member for

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Norwich South into the new role he is in and say that we served in the

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same reserve infantry unit, although unlike me, he saw active service to

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ring his time there. -- during his time there. Can I congratulate my

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honourable friend on a heavyweight report him and his committee have

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made. And clearly will be responding to it and we will look carefully at

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each of his recommendations, it is above my pay grade to give a date

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for Trident debate. We will be looking carefully at it. Could I

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congratulate them on the careful balance they have struck between

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stressing the real and growing dangers from the Soviet, Surrey,

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from Russia, Freudian slip! With, on the other hand, the contrast in

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political situation compared with the old Soviet Union. The lack of

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the ideology there and that lack of constructive opportunities that

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would provide as we share a threat from Daesh. I'm grateful for those

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encouraging remarks from the minister, and I believe that he is

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spot on when he says that we must take a balanced view with regard to

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Russia. If we look back over their history of Anglo Russian relations

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over the 20th century, they are a terrible switchback ride of periods

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of great hostility and then close it Alliance and then great hostility

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once again. It is a pity, I will put it no more strongly than that, that

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we cannot order our affairs to see that in reality there are prospects

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for cooperation between developed powers that are masterly outweigh

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any sectional advantage that might be sought by one of them trying to

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steal a march on the other. And I understand the reasons why it Russia

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feels affronted by its treatment after the end of the Cold War, but

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that is no excuse for ripping up the international rule books, and

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trampling on the rights of its neighbours. May I commend the

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chairman and the members of the committee on producing an excellent

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report in the run-up to the Nato summit later this week? And I

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entirely agree with the need for more dialogue and cooperation

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through the Russia Council and by other means. And also the

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committee's recommendation about recognising the Russian threat and

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the need to respond robustly. In that context, does the chairman of

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the committee share my concern about the recent announcement by the

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Foreign Minister in Germany when after a Nato exercise in Poland, he

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described it as warmongering and counter-productive to regional

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security. Isn't that the need for member states of Nato to stand

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together, send United and clear message to Putin, that we will not

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be divided, and there needs to be work done by our own government and

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other like-minded governments to ensure that everybody recognises the

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need to stand united or Putin will exploit differences. I share his

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concern and this is why some of us at any rate, and I speak more

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personally in this respect, have been worried about the creation of a

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separate defence identity within Europe outside the Nato arena. What

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he says is entirely right. Nato is the forum in which our security

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concerns with our European friends, neighbours and allies, should be

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aired. And we should try to arrive at unified perceptions of the

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situation and articulate them appropriately. May I congratulate my

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right honourable friend and his committee on producing an excellent

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and very timely report. I wonder if he would agree with me that what we

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have seen recently is that resident Putin has been able to exploit our

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witnesses, but he does so ruthlessly, and that he has been

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able to act with impunity. As chairman of the all-party Ukraine

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group I am conscious of his flouting of the Budapest memorandum of 1990

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six -- 1996. He has done that with complete impunity. He respects

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strength. I think it is right that Nato is reinforcing its position in

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the Baltic states. I think that it is an act of, demonstration of

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strength on the part of Nato and of resolve. And I wonder if my right

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honourable friend would not agree with me that it is capabilities, not

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intentions, that count. Because intentions can change overnight, his

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abilities cannot. Particularly today when we see the complexity of modern

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defence technology, you cannot produce tanks and shipped overnight.

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So Nato's upcoming meeting should be focusing on that extra spending to

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deliver capabilities. I applaud my right honourable friend's argued

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about dialogue. I had a meeting with the Russian ambassador in London and

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I said, we had a common interest. We are both facing Islamic

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fundamentalism. Would my right honourable friend be able to share

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with the House how he thinks we can on the one hand show that we have

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absolutely determination and resolve in resisting Putin's advances, but

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also, engage with them and his government, and where else might we

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do so apart from on the mutual threat we face from Islamic

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fundamentalism? There was a cornucopia of questions in there,

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but all of them typically sound and well directed, given my honourable

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friend's distinguished record in the field of defence and security. I do

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believe that there is nothing new about the dilemma of how the gauge

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our relations with the Russians. I remember in my years as a researcher

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coming across a paper by the joint intelligence subcommittee, it was

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then the subcommittee of the chiefs of staff, called relations by the

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Russians, written in 1945. And it said then what we are saying today,

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which is the respect due if you stand up to them, if you show your

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strong, but if you engage with them as well. They do not respect you if

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you give signs of weakness. And I believe that there is a shared

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threat but there are also potential threats which Russia is beginning to

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show once again towards its most immediate neighbours, and that is

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why it is so important that there is a Nato military presence in the most

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vulnerable front line states, particularly the Baltic states and

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Poland, because Russia must be left in no doubt that Nato membership

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means that article five applies, and article five means that there should

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be no question of thinking you can pick off any weaker member state of

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Nato or any more exposed member state of Nato and the other

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countries of Nato will not come to its aid. And that is why of course,

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conversely, we must be careful not to extend Nato membership or article

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five guarantees to countries where it is simply not realistic to

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believe that Nato would go to war to defend them. We are quite a lot over

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time so I am going to ask for very short, quick questions but also

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short and quick answers. We have spent most of yesterday discussing

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political and military miscalculation and misadventure in

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Iraq. The debate that we hope on Trident looms large but the report

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emphasises also the need to see the cost effectiveness of that

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programme. Following Brexit and the potential uncertainty that that

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might bring, would my honourable friend agree that there are many

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approaches and non-nuclear deterrent that we could introduce to create

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stability with Russia, but Trident skews every defence budget to

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unacceptable levels. That could create a financial risk actuation

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and lead to military misadventure that would make Iraq look like a

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walk in the park. Bearing in mind your instruction to be concise, I

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will share with the House what the honourable gentleman said to me when

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he first joined the committee. He said, Julian, you and I are never

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going to agree about the nuclear deterrent, but I am sure we can

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cooperate to mutual advantage and many other defence issues. And he

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has been as good as his word. I respect his concerns and doubts

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about the Trident successor programme, and I am sure that the

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sooner we have the debate, the sooner we will be able to engage in

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the arguments. Can I commend the honourable gentleman for his

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chairmanship and leadership of the committee. When you think of Russia,

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I think of those words, speak softly but carry a big stick. One of the

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concerns I have is the National Guard which is under the direct

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control of the president, he can control organised crime and

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protests. Does the chairman shall my concerns, it is clear that President

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Putin no longer has any kind of opposition whatsoever. It is there a

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need -- and is there a need to have a quick response from Nato? Russia

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can respond in 48 hours and it takes Nato days. We need to be able to

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engage with Russia at every level and make sure they've protect our

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people. The honourable gentleman makes an extra enormous and

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extremely valuable contribution to the committee. The announcement of

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the creation of this new National Guard in Russia, believed to muster

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hundreds of thousands of troops, by some reports, but interestingly

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enough, also including special forces, is of concern. And as it is

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directly responsible to the president, one can only wonder

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whether it has something to do with shoring up his position dementedly

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as well as exert -- domestic league as well as exerting power beyond

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Russia's borders. The creation of a high modernist joint task force is a

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step in the right direction but certainly the numbers that should be

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generated at short notice by the Russian Armed Forces seem to be

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substantially in excess of what Nato is able to do now or in the

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immediate future, and we need to be able to do better than that in the

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medium and long term. I will just begin by welcoming the report, I get

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concerned in this house when we are talking about Russia in a certain

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fashion, we are not talking about the communities of Russia who have

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to live with the Russian state every day. It now sees that -- it is now

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clear that the Russian Federation views that Britain's position is

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very weakened, will he agree with me that the lack of investigation into

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the consequences of Brexit was an oversight, and only ads suck or to

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the idea in the Kremlin that the United Kingdom does not have any

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clue what it is doing when it comes with like-minded European nations

:26:06.:26:09.

dealing with a profound threats from the Russian Federation? What a

:26:10.:26:15.

pleasure after although supportive questions to say I am able to

:26:16.:26:19.

disagree with that question. When did Brexit occur? A matter of days

:26:20.:26:26.

ago. And the committee, the committee is to be corrugated and

:26:27.:26:30.

condemned because it has not already carried out a full-scale

:26:31.:26:33.

investigation of the consequences of something that the honourable

:26:34.:26:35.

gentleman was hoping would never happen will stop some of us hope

:26:36.:26:43.

that it would happen but I must say the majority of the committee hoped

:26:44.:26:47.

it would not. He can be sure that the consequences of Brexit feature

:26:48.:26:51.

high up on our future programme of work and I am surprised only that he

:26:52.:26:57.

did not think that we should have carried out the research into the

:26:58.:27:00.

consequences of it before we even knew that it was going to pick

:27:01.:27:09.

place. We now come to the backbench motion on online abuse. I beg to

:27:10.:27:16.

move the motion relating to online abuse. Without digital connectivity

:27:17.:27:24.

and an online world, our lives would be cooler, but the reason for this

:27:25.:27:28.

debate today is our responsibility as elected to sensitive is is clear

:27:29.:27:34.

that this needs to be a force that is for good, not for ill. I believe

:27:35.:27:39.

we'll have a clear duty to come together and demand of the

:27:40.:27:44.

government that they do more address the problems of online abuse in all

:27:45.:27:46.

its forms. More than three quarters its forms. More than three quarters

:27:47.:27:49.

of our constituents use the Internet almost every day. More than half use

:27:50.:27:55.

a mobile phone to access it. Half of all crimes committed in this country

:27:56.:28:00.

have a digital component, and the police are overwhelmed by its scale

:28:01.:28:04.

and diversity, particularly the nature and impact of online abuse.

:28:05.:28:09.

The focus of government in the past has primarily been on online abuse

:28:10.:28:16.

that involves child abuse images. I applaud the Prime Minister in his

:28:17.:28:20.

career and personal abuse to act on this crime. But online abuse is much

:28:21.:28:24.

more than that, for both children and adults. Homophobic, Transco

:28:25.:28:29.

brick, anti-Muslim, anti-Semitic, hate crime to name but a few. Image

:28:30.:28:38.

-based sexual abuse. These forms of abuse and others continue to go

:28:39.:28:42.

unchallenged, because reporting mechanisms are unreliable or

:28:43.:28:47.

obscure, because the law was designed for an analogue age, or

:28:48.:28:51.

because the police are not properly trained to identify online abuse and

:28:52.:28:55.

collecting evidence to make a case stick. We have to reject all forms

:28:56.:29:00.

of online abuse, tissue or zero tolerance through our legal systems,

:29:01.:29:05.

police force and the things we teach our children in schools. It is for

:29:06.:29:09.

us to determine what sort of society we we live in, not faceless

:29:10.:29:13.

corporate organisations often many thousands of miles away. We cannot

:29:14.:29:18.

sit by and simply allow online abuse in all its forms to become an

:29:19.:29:24.

accepted norm in our society. With the growing fire online and off-line

:29:25.:29:30.

worlds, the blurring of those worlds, it's easy to see how that

:29:31.:29:34.

might end. What is allowed to become an accepted form of online abuse

:29:35.:29:38.

could simply spill over in a face-to-face worlds as well. Like

:29:39.:29:43.

every other single member of the house, I believe in freedom of

:29:44.:29:46.

speech, but that freedom of speech has never been an unqualified right.

:29:47.:29:53.

Freedom of speech comes with responsibilities, and at the present

:29:54.:29:57.

time, we're not making sure that people who are expressing themselves

:29:58.:30:01.

online understand that fact. The facts do show the direction of

:30:02.:30:08.

travel. Today, one in four young people say they have been targeted

:30:09.:30:12.

with online hate because of their gender, the sexual orientation, the

:30:13.:30:17.

race, or their transgender identity. The quarters say it has an effect on

:30:18.:30:25.

how they use the Internet in the future, for they are free exchange

:30:26.:30:28.

of ideas. Teachers report a 40% increase in cyber crime, with

:30:29.:30:35.

perpetrators winding new ways to reduce their victims, skirting

:30:36.:30:37.

around the law. Parents have found it almost impossible to get rid of

:30:38.:30:46.

you Tube and making the lives of you Tube and making the lives of

:30:47.:30:56.

many teenagers unbearable. There wouldn't be one MP in this house

:30:57.:31:00.

that hasn't had constituents who have spoken to them about the issue

:31:01.:31:04.

and I commend her for making that point. Not only do we have the

:31:05.:31:11.

trolling of young people, we had the digital usage as well and it all in

:31:12.:31:19.

facts and not just on a young person's personality and how they

:31:20.:31:23.

respond, but in some cases, it has led to suicide and death. Is it not

:31:24.:31:27.

time we have legislation that responded ably to this issue and put

:31:28.:31:31.

those people behind bars, where they those people behind bars, where they

:31:32.:31:37.

should be? He has a long-standing interest in this issue as well,

:31:38.:31:43.

which I know from our conversations. He is right, the law is not

:31:44.:31:47.

protecting many young people, who feel vulnerable, and in some tragic

:31:48.:31:54.

cases, it has led to them taking their own lives. I think we have to

:31:55.:31:58.

take this far more seriously and we have to make sure our laws are

:31:59.:32:01.

robust. To deal with some very unpleasant truths that are within

:32:02.:32:09.

this as well, and particularly the trading of sexual images, which is

:32:10.:32:17.

currently going unchecked, for fear of criminalising teenagers. But we

:32:18.:32:21.

know within these cases, around one in ten could involve an adult,

:32:22.:32:24.

leaving young people at real risk of leaving young people at real risk of

:32:25.:32:29.

sexual exploitation while the police are finding it difficult to know how

:32:30.:32:36.

to cope. Does she agree with me that one of the largest concerns is the

:32:37.:32:39.

under reporting by young people of these issues and surely, what we do

:32:40.:32:43.

see the police see is just the tip of the iceberg. It's important with

:32:44.:32:48.

that the cultural issues around this as well. She brings up good point.

:32:49.:32:53.

Even when the crimes are reported, police find it almost impossible to

:32:54.:32:56.

know how to tackle them, maybe because the law is inadequate, but

:32:57.:32:59.

also because maybe their training is inadequate as well. I recently was

:33:00.:33:07.

given some evidence by Good Morning Britain where they uncovered that

:33:08.:33:12.

one in six crimes reported under revenge pornography laws involved

:33:13.:33:16.

children under 18. That's not children under 18. That's not

:33:17.:33:19.

revenge pornography, that this child abuse, but is being attributed in

:33:20.:33:23.

this way by the police are leading to exactly what she is saying, which

:33:24.:33:27.

is under reporting of one of the most appalling crimes that can

:33:28.:33:35.

exist. I welcome the work she has done on this issue and I have been

:33:36.:33:41.

involved in the Reclaim The Internet campaign to bring organisations and

:33:42.:33:46.

individuals together to tackle online abuse. I agree with her that

:33:47.:33:51.

there are big questions for the law and for policing, particularly

:33:52.:33:53.

it comes to protecting young people. it comes to protecting young people.

:33:54.:33:57.

But that she also agree that we need much stronger responsibility from

:33:58.:34:02.

everyone, including other organisations and social media

:34:03.:34:07.

platforms, and which she welcome the work that Stonewall and Facebook

:34:08.:34:11.

have been doing to tackle online bullying and LG BT discrimination

:34:12.:34:15.

and homophobia and the work they have been doing to launch a new

:34:16.:34:22.

online guides tomorrow? Thank you for intervening and highlighting the

:34:23.:34:27.

work that is going on in this area. I do contribute to the campaign she

:34:28.:34:33.

has started as a cross-party campaign, to make sure we can come

:34:34.:34:38.

together and fight a unified solution to this problem, which I

:34:39.:34:41.

think is one of the biggest problems is country is facing at the moment.

:34:42.:34:47.

Because online abuse is not something that simply affects one

:34:48.:34:51.

group of people, it goes across society and is wrecking the lives of

:34:52.:34:54.

adults as well. This government does have to be applauded for being one

:34:55.:34:59.

of the first in the world to recognise online image -based sexual

:35:00.:35:05.

pornography laws, which is the pornography laws, which is the

:35:06.:35:10.

leader of the house, when he was Lord Chancellor, was instrumental in

:35:11.:35:15.

putting into place. This actually has been vindicated, because have

:35:16.:35:18.

been more than 3000 calls to the revenge pornography helpline since

:35:19.:35:22.

these laws were passed, laws which I was told when not needed, because

:35:23.:35:27.

was inadequate law in place already. We've had 1000 reported incidents in

:35:28.:35:30.

just six months last year. There is just six months last year. There is

:35:31.:35:33.

much more to do to make those more effective and make the police able

:35:34.:35:37.

to prosecute effectively, but I think it shows the government is

:35:38.:35:41.

open to persuasion on this issue and hope it shows open-mindedness for

:35:42.:35:46.

the future. Because now is the time for a very clear strategy to tackle

:35:47.:35:50.

these problems. Every person in the country, regardless of that age

:35:51.:35:54.

should have an expectation to be able to use social media platforms

:35:55.:35:59.

and mobile technology without being subject to criminal abuse. The

:36:00.:36:02.

online world as part of everybody's lives. The Minister on the front

:36:03.:36:10.

bench today, has a deep interest and knowledge of these issues and I know

:36:11.:36:15.

the personal work he has done behind-the-scenes to try and press

:36:16.:36:18.

forward on many of these issues, and he should be commended for that. The

:36:19.:36:22.

minister's proposals in the Digital economy Bill to stop underage access

:36:23.:36:28.

to pornography, I know they have been subject to a great deal of

:36:29.:36:31.

attention from him. They are very welcomed, but they do reinforce a

:36:32.:36:39.

piecemeal approach to this problem. Experts have already made clear that

:36:40.:36:44.

children will be more than well equipped to get round most barriers

:36:45.:36:47.

that will be put up to stop them getting access to pornography. This

:36:48.:36:54.

may well be an approach which can help us stop younger children

:36:55.:36:57.

inadvertently coming across pornography, which is something I

:36:58.:37:01.

know the NSPCC have highlighted in some recent research, but we need to

:37:02.:37:06.

understand that if this government's policy is to be effective, it has to

:37:07.:37:13.

be part of a much broader and clearer strategic plan, which

:37:14.:37:15.

includes mandatory sexual education in all of our state funded schools,

:37:16.:37:21.

but also that children can be given the opportunity to understand how to

:37:22.:37:26.

make the right choices for them and a bit pornography Lacey into the

:37:27.:37:29.

proper perspective is in their lives. I join with others in

:37:30.:37:37.

commending her on this debate. She mentions the multifaceted approach,

:37:38.:37:40.

including one of the areas that concerns me, when I hear cases in my

:37:41.:37:45.

constituency, which is the irresponsibility of some parents,

:37:46.:37:51.

who give media and digital platform devices to their children at a very

:37:52.:37:55.

young age and then leave them to it. Surely, we need to do more to

:37:56.:38:00.

educate the parents as to their responsibility, how they can teach

:38:01.:38:04.

their children to manage these devices in a responsible way. He is

:38:05.:38:10.

absolutely right. We find it very easy to talk about putting

:38:11.:38:14.

responsibilities onto schools to teach them, but it starts with

:38:15.:38:18.

parents. If we're getting these devices to our children, and I would

:38:19.:38:22.

also say gaming devices as well, because that is obviously clear

:38:23.:38:26.

problems there with regard to the grooming of children, that we have

:38:27.:38:29.

to make sure they are knowledgeable to make sure they are knowledgeable

:38:30.:38:33.

about the risks and that they can start to make informed choices from

:38:34.:38:39.

a very early age. But that can be so easily reinforced at school and,

:38:40.:38:45.

while in the past I have been very open that I have felt section major

:38:46.:38:50.

occasion should be something that is determined by a school, but I think

:38:51.:38:53.

as we move into this online world, the very real dangers and problems

:38:54.:38:58.

that children are encountering, it has certainly changed my view on the

:38:59.:39:03.

need to make that compulsively. The online world has some of the best

:39:04.:39:07.

and the brightest people working in it. The response to the child abuse

:39:08.:39:14.

problems, child abuse image problems we had, shows that when pressure is

:39:15.:39:19.

applied, this incredibly creative industry can react and react quite

:39:20.:39:25.

swiftly. When we are clear about our terms of engagement, and this debate

:39:26.:39:28.

today is about enabling Parliament to send a clear message to the

:39:29.:39:34.

industry, to social media and the online world, to say enough is

:39:35.:39:37.

enough. Our constituents deserve better, and we will fight, as the

:39:38.:39:43.

Right Honourable lady has said in her campaign, to reclaim the

:39:44.:39:48.

Internet for them. I'd like to take this responsibility to thank the

:39:49.:39:52.

Backbench Business Committee are recognising the importance of this

:39:53.:39:58.

debate and allowing myself and I are both friends to sponsor this debate

:39:59.:40:02.

together. I'd also like to thank the myriad of organisations who have

:40:03.:40:04.

worked with me and my honourable friend to prepare for the debate

:40:05.:40:13.

with Durham University, NSPCC, Stonewall, the list goes on, because

:40:14.:40:18.

that are so many organisations who have a deep concern about the

:40:19.:40:22.

direction of travel. Social media platforms and Internet providers are

:40:23.:40:28.

facilitators, like many other organisations in our country, they

:40:29.:40:33.

provide a service, a service with a label to gather personal details in

:40:34.:40:37.

order to sell the advertising opportunities. It can sometimes be

:40:38.:40:41.

quite astonishing how you can view appeared issues on website and have

:40:42.:40:44.

hours later. In an entirely hours later. In an entirely

:40:45.:40:49.

different context. I really take my hat off to them in a way the little

:40:50.:40:56.

to do this. It is a sophisticated industry, with sensitive and

:40:57.:41:01.

well-developed ways to gather information to sell sales

:41:02.:41:04.

opportunities and then obviously to make a successful business out of

:41:05.:41:09.

that. So what I am calling for today is for some of that incredible

:41:10.:41:14.

talent and expertise to be focused on stopping online abuse. There are

:41:15.:41:18.

four issues I think that need to be addressed. First, we need to make

:41:19.:41:24.

sure we have laws that are fit for purpose and I pay tribute to the

:41:25.:41:29.

work done by Durham University in particular. We need to clarify what

:41:30.:41:34.

constitutes online abuse, we need better and clearer harassment laws,

:41:35.:41:41.

we need image -based sexual abuse law, which makes all forms of image

:41:42.:41:46.

-based sexual abuse sheared in a non-consensual manner in legal, we

:41:47.:41:51.

need to have, we need to end complete unanimous in mid-2 in the

:41:52.:41:55.

UK, we need to insist that platforms have a legal duty to be able to

:41:56.:41:59.

identify the people who use their products in our country.

:42:00.:42:04.

We need to make clear that those platforms have two abide by a common

:42:05.:42:13.

standard. They need to provide accurate figures on the cases of

:42:14.:42:18.

reported abuse. When they are developing products, it needs to be

:42:19.:42:22.

done in a way which builds out abuse in the future, rather than building

:42:23.:42:26.

it in at the starting point. We need to be clear to online providers in

:42:27.:42:32.

our country that if they failed to take sensible measures to reduce

:42:33.:42:38.

online abuse, we as Apollo and should be considering putting in

:42:39.:42:43.

place a levy to cover the costs are policing -- as a Parliament. This is

:42:44.:42:51.

something that's been done in other areas, and I think here about the

:42:52.:42:57.

payments made by football teams to have policing of football stadium

:42:58.:43:01.

will stop this isn't a new idea but is one which might concentrate the

:43:02.:43:05.

mind when it comes to online abuse in the future. Madam Deputy is

:43:06.:43:09.

bigger, last but not these, we need to see a change in culture. I

:43:10.:43:14.

believe that changing culture should be around, send, respect and

:43:15.:43:17.

dignity. And that needs to be at the heart of eight compulsory delivered

:43:18.:43:23.

sex and later Jeb education in all of our schools, but to go beyond and

:43:24.:43:29.

to rent some pains to make sure people know their own

:43:30.:43:35.

responsibilities to act responsible. That'll be driven greatly by

:43:36.:43:40.

removing the veil of anonymity, which currently cloaks so many

:43:41.:43:46.

inputs into social media. Madam Deputy Speaker, where there is a

:43:47.:43:49.

well, there is a way, then the Minister today will want to show the

:43:50.:43:54.

House there is a clear rule coming from government. More than four

:43:55.:43:57.

years ago, the Prime Minister said there was no tolerance of child

:43:58.:44:01.

abuse on mine, and at that point the industry had said it could do little

:44:02.:44:06.

about it. Now there is a clear strategy, protocols and images

:44:07.:44:13.

removed swiftly. Where a worrying increase in online hate crime

:44:14.:44:15.

spilling onto the offline world, we need to make sure we act swiftly. We

:44:16.:44:22.

need to make sure that cyber bullying and the newly formed

:44:23.:44:31.

concept of online dating is shown short shrift, now is the time to

:44:32.:44:35.

act. The Minister need to show us he has an understanding of the need for

:44:36.:44:39.

a clear strategy to tackle online abuse in its totality. In the

:44:40.:44:48.

digital goal communication act, he has the vehicle he needs, to make

:44:49.:44:52.

any changes that such a strategy might call for. My honourable friend

:44:53.:44:58.

is a good man, you knows the online worlds needs to have a clear message

:44:59.:45:03.

from this House. My hope is he listens to the debate today. He

:45:04.:45:08.

listens to it intently and takes the message back to his departments and

:45:09.:45:12.

back to the industry itself to say that now is the time for change. If

:45:13.:45:22.

everybody takes eight minutes and no longer, I don't need to impose a

:45:23.:45:31.

time limit. I want to begin by thanking The right honourable member

:45:32.:45:36.

for Basingstoke for securing this debate on the backbench committee

:45:37.:45:38.

too. She's done a great deal in her role as chair, and indeed before

:45:39.:45:46.

that on problems of online abuse increasingly experienced by women. I

:45:47.:45:51.

want to commend to particularly for her work on the revenge born

:45:52.:45:56.

legislation. We know online abuse can take a variety of forms, cruel

:45:57.:46:01.

commons and messages, the sharing of photos without consent, being sent

:46:02.:46:06.

unwanted images or threats of sexual or physical violence. Whilst there

:46:07.:46:10.

is a range of forms of online abuse, one thing is clear, that is online

:46:11.:46:17.

abuse is happening consistently across all social media platforms

:46:18.:46:22.

and something more needs to be done to stop it. I'm pleased to be

:46:23.:46:30.

supporting my right honourable friend's campaign along with other

:46:31.:46:35.

members of the House, to reclaim the Internet campaign, which aims to

:46:36.:46:43.

demand change so voices are not silent by sexism, racism,

:46:44.:46:46.

homophobia, transfer beer or any other forms of intimidation online.

:46:47.:46:57.

-- transphobia. It will bring together antibody and campaigners,

:46:58.:47:03.

groups and members of the industry itself to see what steps can be

:47:04.:47:08.

taken to stop abusive behaviour. I hope it is a campaign that all

:47:09.:47:12.

members of the House can get behind. As I mentioned, the issue of online

:47:13.:47:17.

abuse affects many people and groups in society, but it seems women are

:47:18.:47:23.

subject particularly, and I want to focus my comments on women today.

:47:24.:47:28.

Online abuse for women contains frequent use of threats of sexual

:47:29.:47:32.

violence and a rubber treat common is about women's Perrins and bodies,

:47:33.:47:37.

they are the major victims of revenge born, explicit photos, which

:47:38.:47:42.

I shared without consent, those individuals who perpetrate online

:47:43.:47:47.

abuse take even greater pleasure in shouting down women who speak out

:47:48.:47:53.

against it. I think this is something which we have two address.

:47:54.:47:57.

I'm sure many of my fellow female members from across the House are

:47:58.:48:02.

all-too-familiar with this kind of online abuse. What we do know is

:48:03.:48:06.

anonymity and distance that people think the social media gives them

:48:07.:48:11.

enables them to say things online that I hope they would never say

:48:12.:48:15.

face-to-face. But this online abuse must be tackled so it doesn't

:48:16.:48:20.

prevent women from wanting to get involved in public life. And when it

:48:21.:48:24.

comes the young people and online abuse, it is young women who are

:48:25.:48:27.

disproportionately affected as well. A study in the United States found

:48:28.:48:41.

25% of women aged 18 to 24 had been targeted by harassment, and 26% had

:48:42.:48:45.

been stalked online. That's one in four women, it is appalling. It's

:48:46.:48:52.

need to me made clear this behaviour is acceptable. The study I refer to

:48:53.:48:56.

also found men are more likely to report online abuse than women, said

:48:57.:49:01.

there is some kind of disconnect going on where women don't feel able

:49:02.:49:07.

to report, maybe feel it is not even a reportable crime. I think it

:49:08.:49:11.

enables women to take their complaints to police, which is

:49:12.:49:15.

something we have two address as well. I will give way. I'm grateful

:49:16.:49:30.

because she hit it right. In the case of revenge born, do she agree

:49:31.:49:33.

that one of the things that could make a difference would be if we

:49:34.:49:38.

were to give anonymity to those who have been victims of it? That would

:49:39.:49:42.

be something that would bring more people forward to make complaints,

:49:43.:49:46.

leading to prosecutions. The right honourable gentleman makes an

:49:47.:49:51.

interesting point and is one we need to look at in more detail. And the

:49:52.:50:01.

issue affects young children, younger children, and young women

:50:02.:50:05.

still at school. One of the ways in which the issue of online abuse was

:50:06.:50:10.

first brought my attention was by head teachers in my constituency

:50:11.:50:16.

coming tell me what problem online abuse is in schools and asking if I

:50:17.:50:19.

could raise the issue in Parliament and see what could be done to try

:50:20.:50:24.

and help teachers and others in school to tackle it. I'm also a

:50:25.:50:29.

member of the Commonwealth woman Parliament, a branch, and we've

:50:30.:50:35.

looked at the issue of relevance against women and in particular the

:50:36.:50:40.

rise of online abuse as a form of violence against women. This is

:50:41.:50:46.

becoming such a significant element of women's public life that we made

:50:47.:50:53.

it one of the key things of our conference, our international

:50:54.:50:59.

conference in 2015. We heard from groups who outlined the difficulty

:51:00.:51:04.

of tackling horrific online abuse of women, along with legal

:51:05.:51:09.

professionals who also pointed out that current legislation simply

:51:10.:51:13.

isn't where it needs to be on this issue. And what we did through that

:51:14.:51:21.

conference was identifying online abuse as a global phenomenon, and we

:51:22.:51:26.

wanted to work with partners in other countries so we can end up

:51:27.:51:29.

with the best legislation possible. And that work is ongoing. But I'd

:51:30.:51:35.

also like to take this opportunity to praise my own constabulary in

:51:36.:51:39.

Durham and achieve Constable, who has been at the forefront of

:51:40.:51:44.

speaking on this issue from a policing perspective and he is had

:51:45.:51:47.

it in the at the time police are putting in to having to deal with

:51:48.:51:51.

instances which have occurred online. He has also talked about the

:51:52.:51:56.

need to clarify legislation to make it much easier for police to deal

:51:57.:52:04.

with complaints about online abuse, and in exactly how to tackle them

:52:05.:52:08.

and when to put them into a criminal category. We will need to make sure

:52:09.:52:13.

our police are as well equipped as they can be to deal with the ever

:52:14.:52:18.

changing nature of crime and the New World of online harassment. In

:52:19.:52:22.

particular, we need to make sure they have the resources to deal with

:52:23.:52:26.

it, but police officers also need to have the training to deal with it

:52:27.:52:32.

because only 7500 out of 100,000 police officers in England and Wales

:52:33.:52:39.

have the training. I do welcome the move is the government have made in

:52:40.:52:43.

this area and they know the Minister sitting on the front bench will be

:52:44.:52:47.

listening to what we have to say today. As we become increasingly

:52:48.:52:53.

technological, we need to ensure our laws reflect that. Again, I want to

:52:54.:52:57.

pay tribute to the work that's being done at Durham University, which is

:52:58.:53:06.

outlining very clearly to as how we need to consolidate legislation that

:53:07.:53:10.

already exists, update legislation that exists and then have a very

:53:11.:53:17.

clear strategy as to how that legislation is implemented and

:53:18.:53:20.

enforced, and it is only when we do that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope

:53:21.:53:25.

we get the change in culture, which is what the right honourable lady

:53:26.:53:29.

was stressing earlier, that we need to stop all forms of online abuse

:53:30.:53:36.

happening. I would also like to find the backbench minister and my right

:53:37.:53:42.

honourable friend forgiven us the opportunity to talk about this

:53:43.:53:50.

issue. I expect I came to this after a few incidents being reported in my

:53:51.:53:56.

own consistency, and I thought I was uncovering something Ltd and

:53:57.:54:01.

isolated and an occasional problem. Even in the short space of time

:54:02.:54:05.

looking more deeply, I discovered it is in fact a huge issue which is

:54:06.:54:10.

affecting vast as our people, young and old, not just of my own

:54:11.:54:14.

catchment spread across the rest of the UK. This is well illustrated by

:54:15.:54:20.

the information from victims aboard who worked with 4000 children in

:54:21.:54:24.

schools over the last three years. They tell them 56% of those 12,000

:54:25.:54:30.

children were identified as victims of online crime. This is a

:54:31.:54:35.

staggering and worrying statistic. 41% reported targeted bullion online

:54:36.:54:39.

from their peers, and a third reported being sent non-requested

:54:40.:54:45.

online pornography. This is a significant underestimation of the

:54:46.:54:49.

problem, because a lot of people may be fearful of reporting this, may

:54:50.:54:53.

not know how to do it or indeed where to go. But as we've heard

:54:54.:55:00.

before, I don't want to repeat what has been said word for word, but

:55:01.:55:05.

this isn't just a problem which impacts on young people and their

:55:06.:55:11.

families, we know we are talking about racism, gender issues,

:55:12.:55:14.

homophobia, anti-Semitic abuse, we are talking about prejudice and

:55:15.:55:20.

intimidation, including religion, sex, and just in some cases people's

:55:21.:55:29.

everyday beliefs. You go, they serve eight 2000 adults, 81% reported

:55:30.:55:39.

bullion as commonplace, 56% reported it commonplace at work and city 4%

:55:40.:55:43.

believe it is widespread free society generally. I wonder, had

:55:44.:55:53.

YouGov undertaking that a few years ago, what the consequences would

:55:54.:55:57.

have been. It knows no barriers, it is for the young and old, it can be

:55:58.:56:02.

anonymous. It was described to me like a persistent headache in which

:56:03.:56:06.

you simply can't escape. There is no safe place you can go. No private

:56:07.:56:11.

haven where you can escape the impact of the online bullion. It can

:56:12.:56:18.

lead to damage to reputation, loss of jobs, relationship breakdowns,

:56:19.:56:27.

isolation and even suicide. One of the issues we discovered when we

:56:28.:56:32.

will look into it is nobody really knows exactly how big the issue is.

:56:33.:56:36.

This is part of the problem, this is what we are trying to understand.

:56:37.:56:41.

With over 30 pieces of legislation covering crimes, it is difficult to

:56:42.:56:45.

get a really clear picture. The closest we could come was courtesy

:56:46.:56:51.

of the library, prosecution starts under section 127. In 2004, 143

:56:52.:57:02.

people were found guilty, cautions proceeded against them. In 2014, ten

:57:03.:57:08.

years later, that had gone up to 1002 ended and nine, and that was an

:57:09.:57:18.

80% increase in the years 2014 -- 1209. That is a dramatic increase in

:57:19.:57:22.

prosecutions under that one single piece of that abuses of available

:57:23.:57:29.

legislation. There is a concern about consistent terminology. We

:57:30.:57:33.

don't seem to really be able to define clearly exactly what online

:57:34.:57:38.

abuse is, but there does seem to be some concern within the law of some

:57:39.:57:44.

misunderstanding of what it is. Therefore how can we define it and

:57:45.:57:47.

therefore there can be an inconsistent application of the law.

:57:48.:57:56.

We welcome the the revised guidelines, but there is a bit of a

:57:57.:58:05.

question about whether that goes quite far enough. I'm also concerned

:58:06.:58:10.

that the Government earlier this year said it did not intend to

:58:11.:58:15.

introduce specific additional legislation to address online

:58:16.:58:19.

harassment and Internet trolling. The reason the Government gave for

:58:20.:58:23.

this is a didn't want to find itself in a position where young people

:58:24.:58:26.

were being unnecessarily criminalised. That's an entirely

:58:27.:58:31.

justifiable position, but it does demonstrate I think a narrow

:58:32.:58:34.

awareness of the true scale of the problem and doesn't take into

:58:35.:58:39.

account the many other target groups who find themselves victims of this

:58:40.:58:47.

kind of problem. The Minister on her feet did go as far as think it is

:58:48.:58:53.

imperative for these laws rigorously enforced. I think that an issue we

:58:54.:58:59.

must address with those charged with doing that. How does this harassment

:59:00.:59:08.

take place? As we have heard, it is abusive messages, online, text,

:59:09.:59:12.

e-mail, social media, Digital photos used to embarrass the victim, sexual

:59:13.:59:16.

grooming, extortion, blackmail and anything else these people seem to

:59:17.:59:21.

be all to think of. I did National stalking helpline has already been

:59:22.:59:27.

referred to so find the debate, but their statistics show the highest

:59:28.:59:32.

percentage of abusive behaviour is digital rather than off-line and

:59:33.:59:35.

children and adults are now finding themselves in this world where --

:59:36.:59:39.

from which there is no escape from this kind of activity, the more

:59:40.:59:43.

dependent we become on online activity generally. So the question

:59:44.:59:48.

is do we know the scale of the problem, it seems we do not. How

:59:49.:59:52.

many people are afraid to report it? We don't know, except in other

:59:53.:59:57.

thousands. How many do not know how to report it or who to report it to?

:59:58.:00:00.

We don't know the answer to that either. It is probably plenty

:00:01.:00:05.

though. Our schools are equipped to spot the signs and should the

:00:06.:00:08.

responsibility lie exclusively with them? I don't think we know the

:00:09.:00:14.

answer to that either. Or the police train, do they have the resources,

:00:15.:00:17.

are they serious about healing with some of the reports they get? We

:00:18.:00:22.

don't know the answer to that. All the existing law satisfactorily

:00:23.:00:26.

enforced when it appears that even from the responsible Government

:00:27.:00:31.

minister that they actually believe there is further enforcement issues

:00:32.:00:37.

to be addressed? And do the social media platforms take the

:00:38.:00:41.

responsibility -- responsibilities seriously enough? It has been

:00:42.:00:45.

referred to by my colleagues opposite earlier that organisations

:00:46.:00:51.

like Facebook and Twitter have done a great deal to try and improve the

:00:52.:00:55.

situation and are taking this problem seriously. Books, and there

:00:56.:01:02.

is a but, if we, some of us in this chamber of the nerve to go back to

:01:03.:01:05.

the days when communication through printed newspaper, there was no

:01:06.:01:09.

question at all that if any of us wrote a letter to the editor in the

:01:10.:01:14.

days we could do and contained within it some of the stuff which

:01:15.:01:18.

now appears to be perfectly reasonable to put on Twitter or

:01:19.:01:24.

Facebook that we would have added a blip into an open the bin. But now,

:01:25.:01:28.

some of these platforms are facilitated some pretty disgusting

:01:29.:01:33.

material and sort of saying it is up to the victim to complain to the

:01:34.:01:37.

police if wish. I am not sure that the social media platforms could

:01:38.:01:44.

work... Quite the position where we can say they are fully responsible.

:01:45.:01:52.

So to finish, it good news that the cps have a knowledge concerned that

:01:53.:01:56.

this is by news that the Government feels there is nothing further it is

:01:57.:01:59.

obliged to do at this stage. It is good news is there such a wide

:02:00.:02:02.

collection of charities and organisations and groups who have

:02:03.:02:05.

helped us and bringing this to public attention. It is good news

:02:06.:02:11.

that the Duke of Cambridge is behind the prevention of cyber bullying. As

:02:12.:02:15.

he put it, we need to stand up and not stand by. The reason for that is

:02:16.:02:19.

that I am not worried we are living in a world where somehow, this kind

:02:20.:02:23.

of language, this kind of code, these can of incidents we read about

:02:24.:02:27.

becoming so widespread and so common that they are almost becoming

:02:28.:02:32.

normal. And they become normal, then what hope can we have for children

:02:33.:02:38.

and honourable adults living in this kind of cyber world? It is for that

:02:39.:02:42.

reason that we thought it would be appropriate to bring it to the

:02:43.:02:48.

House's attention today. Can I congratulate the member for

:02:49.:02:51.

Basingstoke for bringing this important debate to the Backbench

:02:52.:02:56.

Business Committee. This is a serious ongoing problem for all in a

:02:57.:03:02.

modern society and it spans all age groups and demographics. We know

:03:03.:03:08.

that research commissioned by some group that 10,000 tweets are several

:03:09.:03:11.

UK gallons simply three bees aggressively attacking somebody as I

:03:12.:03:15.

quote, being a shut or a horse. Revenge point helpline received 4000

:03:16.:03:20.

calls in the last year with cases as young as 11 years old been reported.

:03:21.:03:26.

According to the largest teaching union in the UK, over half of

:03:27.:03:31.

teachers report receiving online abuse as well. In February this

:03:32.:03:34.

year, the UK safe Internet centre published a study which find --

:03:35.:03:40.

found that of those 13-18 -year-old survey, 24% had been targeted

:03:41.:03:45.

because of their gender, sexual orientation, race, religion,

:03:46.:03:49.

disability or transgender identity. One in 25 said they were singled out

:03:50.:03:55.

for abuse all or most of the time. While this abuse has banned all of

:03:56.:04:01.

society, teenagers with disabilities and mostly African, Caribbean, Asian

:04:02.:04:06.

or Middle Eastern groups were more likely to encounter cyber bullying.

:04:07.:04:10.

Parliaments and governments across the UK have a responsibility to face

:04:11.:04:14.

up to the issue and take appropriate action to prevent and indeed

:04:15.:04:19.

addressed it. That is why in Scotland our First Minister has been

:04:20.:04:23.

very vocal in condemning this issue while the Scottish Government have

:04:24.:04:27.

also provided full funding to Scotland's and bullying service

:04:28.:04:30.

which is managed by the Association for mental health. This vital

:04:31.:04:34.

service works with adults involved in the lives of children and young

:04:35.:04:37.

people to give them practical skills and confidence to deal with children

:04:38.:04:40.

who are bullied and those who bully others. I think it is important to

:04:41.:04:46.

those of us in public life to provide leadership on this issue and

:04:47.:04:49.

I know that all members here will agree that no one, no one should

:04:50.:04:54.

have to access online abuse and also been subject to this most reported

:04:55.:05:00.

to the police and was not suffer in silence, nor should they suffer

:05:01.:05:05.

alone. I want to be able to use on my own personal experience of this

:05:06.:05:08.

issue to encourage the public to stand up to online abuse. And as for

:05:09.:05:14.

those in public life to show stronger public leadership in the

:05:15.:05:19.

conduct of our public debate. When I decided to start up Oliver but I did

:05:20.:05:22.

so because I wanted to make a positive difference to the lives of

:05:23.:05:26.

people in my constituency and across the country. I did so in the full

:05:27.:05:29.

knowledge that by standing up for what I believe in I would hold

:05:30.:05:32.

myself open to challenge for those who don't share my political

:05:33.:05:37.

beliefs. A robust, honest political debate about our views is a vital

:05:38.:05:40.

part of any democracy and we should embrace it. But as we saw from the

:05:41.:05:45.

report published by Sir John Chilcott yesterday, an absence of

:05:46.:05:49.

critical the bit in Parliament and in the democratic system can have

:05:50.:05:53.

disastrous consequences. I came in with a full knowledge and

:05:54.:05:55.

expectation that my words and actions will be held up to public

:05:56.:06:02.

scrutiny and that is right. What has and has taken my breath away though,

:06:03.:06:06.

shocked my family and reduced me to tears is the virtually hateful and

:06:07.:06:10.

sometimes criminal levels of personal abuse that I and colleagues

:06:11.:06:15.

across this House have faced. I've received hateful handwritten letters

:06:16.:06:19.

containing sexual slurs, phone calls to my office threatening violence to

:06:20.:06:22.

my staff and myself and racist e-mails speaking at what people want

:06:23.:06:27.

to do to people like me who Muslims. Communications like these are,, but

:06:28.:06:31.

they are not an everyday experience. I should say at this point that I'm

:06:32.:06:37.

grateful for the work of the police here at Westminster, in Scotland and

:06:38.:06:41.

across the UK for the work they do in helping support those who are

:06:42.:06:45.

falling victim to these crimes and investigate those who are the

:06:46.:06:50.

perpetrators. I know they provide estimate that a level of support to

:06:51.:06:54.

victims regardless of their background or circumstances and it

:06:55.:06:57.

is very important we must all encourage reporting it at every

:06:58.:07:02.

stage. I know I'm not alone in my determination to make myself open

:07:03.:07:06.

and available to those to whom I'm accountable and in the 21st-century,

:07:07.:07:09.

that means being active on social media. I agree as:'s first minute

:07:10.:07:13.

when she said that it is a positive power of Twitter and Facebook and

:07:14.:07:18.

because of it we can communicate directly with our constituents about

:07:19.:07:20.

the work we are doing on their behalf and hear their views without

:07:21.:07:25.

a filter or barrier between us. But the great tragedy of this new

:07:26.:07:28.

technology for all of us is the advancement of online bullying,

:07:29.:07:33.

abuse and threats. I know this horrific experience is not just

:07:34.:07:36.

confined to those of us across this chamber. I want to say directly to

:07:37.:07:40.

those watching from outside Parliament who have been victims of

:07:41.:07:44.

online abuse, from all of us here today that we stand right beside

:07:45.:07:49.

you, because we know how it feels. We understand the pain you have been

:07:50.:07:53.

through and will do our best to address this horrendous issue. The

:07:54.:07:59.

past 14 months have seen equal in that sea, received messages calling

:08:00.:08:06.

for me to be shot as a traitor,. Recently I spoke to a Sunday

:08:07.:08:09.

newspaper were grateful for the article they published which include

:08:10.:08:13.

some of the dreadful things that I have had said to me, none of them

:08:14.:08:20.

are worthy of repeating. My husband sees these messages, my children

:08:21.:08:24.

read this garbage. My staff are required to wade through this

:08:25.:08:27.

sickening filled each day to get to the important information they need

:08:28.:08:34.

to do their jobs. I am grateful, she is making an honourable point. But

:08:35.:08:39.

she agree with me that all victims, including politicians should be

:08:40.:08:42.

given all the help and support they need and deserve to move on in their

:08:43.:08:46.

life and their careers and Britney but the traitors to justice? --

:08:47.:08:54.

bring the traitors to justice. I agree with her. It is difficult for

:08:55.:08:59.

anyone who faces eight and is in anticipation we all have to be

:09:00.:09:03.

strong, but maybe we all are not and some people are different levels of

:09:04.:09:06.

strength to others so there must be support mechanisms and help people

:09:07.:09:10.

to move on. But the matter who the victim is, this is disgusting and

:09:11.:09:14.

violence which is why our support the very honourable aims and

:09:15.:09:16.

objectives of the reclaim the Internet campaign and can I play --

:09:17.:09:20.

pay tribute and compassionate all those involved in setting this up

:09:21.:09:25.

across this chamber and beyond and in seizing the initiative. We must

:09:26.:09:29.

examine the role of the police and prosecutors and the clear around

:09:30.:09:31.

where the threats and harassment become crimes. Social media and

:09:32.:09:36.

publishing platforms must access this series issue and take steps to

:09:37.:09:40.

address it. We are entitled to expect more from Facebook and

:09:41.:09:43.

Twitter in their handling of these issues. We must look all to provide

:09:44.:09:48.

support for victims and outer take on each roles and we must empower

:09:49.:09:51.

and educate our young people about these issues and how to address

:09:52.:09:56.

them. The individual members of Parliament are not responsible for

:09:57.:10:02.

this specific content written by others, but we are responsible for

:10:03.:10:05.

setting the tone of the national debate. I blew that a vital point in

:10:06.:10:13.

our politics and we have recently made significant and defining

:10:14.:10:16.

decisions about the type of country, society we want to be. We can

:10:17.:10:22.

embrace the politics of hope or the politics of hate. It is our role as

:10:23.:10:27.

a lecturer presents tips to show leadership and conduct ourselves in

:10:28.:10:32.

a way which divides the political debates and in closing, Madam Deputy

:10:33.:10:35.

Speaker, I will say to those that may be watching who are doling out

:10:36.:10:39.

abuse on the Internet, Babbs even as we speak, that you are the cowards.

:10:40.:10:50.

But we will stand up for the brave. Tragically, online abuse has become

:10:51.:10:54.

a part of all our lives. I have been subject to it and I'm not a member

:10:55.:10:59.

of a minority, religion or race, but like many other members, I've had

:11:00.:11:03.

abuse online. Nothing that has really hurt or affect me terribly,

:11:04.:11:07.

but on one occasion, I simply posted online some comment about some boy

:11:08.:11:12.

racers who are causing anti-social behaviour and within about an hour,

:11:13.:11:15.

I was being abused from all around the globe. It came from boy racers

:11:16.:11:21.

who had obviously noticed a deficit in my sex life and were offering a

:11:22.:11:26.

wide range of suggestions to improve this, some of which would have ended

:11:27.:11:29.

in certain death. It is becoming clear to me from my

:11:30.:11:48.

mailbox how much online Internet abuse is affecting my residence, it

:11:49.:11:51.

is growing all the time, whether it is chilled and women facing

:11:52.:11:57.

stalking. Or from ex-partners. I have noticed within just the last

:11:58.:12:02.

two years, an enormous improvement in the police response, where is two

:12:03.:12:06.

years ago, I was finding we were suggesting to women they came off

:12:07.:12:09.

Facebook or stopped being online. They now have more appropriate

:12:10.:12:17.

responses and I'm recognising the police recognise net you should be

:12:18.:12:21.

saved to be online as part of the modern age, as you should be walking

:12:22.:12:25.

in the street. We still have some way to go. I'm pleased to say that

:12:26.:12:32.

today, it has been recognised that Essex Police, they are indeed rated

:12:33.:12:39.

as effective and reliable in their treatment of runnable victims. It is

:12:40.:12:46.

incredibly important we get the legislation right for this. As the

:12:47.:12:50.

Minister is sitting listening to this. My Chief Constable said it has

:12:51.:12:55.

been pointed out the police are dealing with 30 different pieces of

:12:56.:12:58.

legislation which are not working for victims. The legislations are

:12:59.:13:03.

either out of date or don't go further and nerve and the police

:13:04.:13:07.

need to be trained to deal with the magnitude of cases of online abuse.

:13:08.:13:13.

Our role must be when we are taken forward the recently digital bill,

:13:14.:13:20.

that we future proof read and are not playing catch up in this arena

:13:21.:13:24.

because the worlds of the Digital economy is growing and is becoming

:13:25.:13:31.

more sophisticated. The pace of change is outstripping the pace of

:13:32.:13:34.

change and other technologies. I'd like to make a wider points, which

:13:35.:13:38.

has been picked up on by my right on boyfriend for calm on We all see the

:13:39.:13:51.

vile comments on your local newspaper or national newspaper, and

:13:52.:13:55.

those we get on Twitter. We have seen in the last week, post-Brexit,

:13:56.:14:00.

an appalling upsurge of racist comments, all which are vile and

:14:01.:14:06.

should be prosecuted. We've also seen quite a shocking thing in the

:14:07.:14:12.

wake of Brexit, which is quite nice, liberal minded people, people who

:14:13.:14:17.

would process themselves to be aggressive and think it is

:14:18.:14:21.

reasonable to abuse 17 million of their fellow countrymen as being

:14:22.:14:30.

clearly stupid or racist. This is no less a liberal thinking to say, all

:14:31.:14:37.

people of a certain race, it is no less intolerant. The fact where we

:14:38.:14:41.

have a culture where people think they can say these things, even

:14:42.:14:48.

intelligent people, online, they are turning into... Saying things they

:14:49.:14:55.

would never dream of saying face-to-face, and therefore I have

:14:56.:14:58.

to say we all have a responsible to to deal with this in our culture,

:14:59.:15:05.

because if that's is acceptable, no window women don't come forward and

:15:06.:15:09.

take the grant of the attacks they have, no wonder children think it is

:15:10.:15:14.

right to be attacked, no wonder the perpetrators and criminals feel

:15:15.:15:17.

emboldened and their behaviour is normal. I would say to everyone who

:15:18.:15:22.

goes online, please post nothing you would not write or not prepared to

:15:23.:15:26.

give your full name and address, this is a cultural issue and

:15:27.:15:29.

legislation alone will never tackle this unless we all take personal

:15:30.:15:33.

responsible that he would changing culture.

:15:34.:15:38.

It is a cliche to say the Internet has changed the world we live in,

:15:39.:15:44.

but it is a cliche because it is true. It is not possible to list the

:15:45.:15:48.

changes the Internet has brought because over the last 25 years, it's

:15:49.:15:54.

been simply all pervasive and is now which a wet in the form of

:15:55.:15:59.

smartphones, we can now carry them around in our pockets. I know I am

:16:00.:16:03.

labouring a obvious truth but it is important in this debate we take a

:16:04.:16:07.

moment to reflect on just how central the Internet has become to

:16:08.:16:12.

our daily lives. From my generation, the Internet, when we stop and think

:16:13.:16:17.

about it, is a technical marvel, but young people, growing up the things

:16:18.:16:22.

that happen online are another normal everyday part of their world.

:16:23.:16:27.

That is why it is important we have this debate, because we simply

:16:28.:16:30.

cannot stand by and watch the sort of abuse and harassment that they

:16:31.:16:35.

small minority of Internet users inflict upon the rest of us to

:16:36.:16:39.

become normalised. I don't think it is too much of a well prediction to

:16:40.:16:44.

say the Internet, social media and smartphones are all here to stay, so

:16:45.:16:50.

it is vital we do all we can to combat and prevent the apparent

:16:51.:16:56.

misuse of powerful tools for communicating thoughts and ideas.

:16:57.:17:05.

I thank the honourable member for giving away. I wondered if she

:17:06.:17:11.

believed the government should think about the additional cost that are

:17:12.:17:15.

incurred as a result of the impact of some of the bullying, trolling

:17:16.:17:20.

and abuse people experience. In my area, there is a 25% increase in

:17:21.:17:27.

referrals to children, adolescent mental health services, so it has a

:17:28.:17:32.

big impact on the financial side. I agree with my right honourable

:17:33.:17:37.

friend. It is something that must be considered. I will carry on to say

:17:38.:17:42.

that the sheer scale of this issue is daunting, as public figures that

:17:43.:17:48.

many others have been on the receiving end. To give a key

:17:49.:17:57.

statistics, in Greater London, only 9% of online hate crimes were

:17:58.:18:02.

investigated nationwide. Back in 2014, the charity beat bullying,

:18:03.:18:09.

reported a third of young people experienced bullying online,

:18:10.:18:14.

including one in 58 to 11-year-olds, while one in 30 subjected to

:18:15.:18:18.

relentless abuse over a period of weeks or even years. And check, the

:18:19.:18:26.

revenge helpline received thousands of calls. The nature of the problem

:18:27.:18:32.

means there is no quick fixes. The anonymity the Internet allows Jesus

:18:33.:18:37.

can ignore social conventions around what it is -- allows users. It is

:18:38.:18:45.

easy to say behind a mask. Facebook did not rate Mr Budgie -- misogyny.

:18:46.:18:54.

Those who hold these views hold them in the real world and are taking

:18:55.:19:02.

advantage of the anonymity. As much as he might like to, we cannot

:19:03.:19:06.

simply pass a law which would do away with intolerance. That is not

:19:07.:19:12.

to say that either as a Parliament or a society, we are helpless. We

:19:13.:19:18.

might not be able to flick a switch but we can take steps to tackle the

:19:19.:19:24.

problem. Take online platforms, for instance. Over the last three years,

:19:25.:19:29.

Facebook, Twitter and Google have began engaging with their users and

:19:30.:19:34.

made it easier to report on line abuse. They ought to be commended.

:19:35.:19:39.

However, there are concerns that none of these companies are fully

:19:40.:19:42.

transparent about the measures they are taken internally to get to grips

:19:43.:19:47.

Republicans people using their sites have. Twitter claims it employs more

:19:48.:19:54.

than 100 staff to deal with reported at the youth, who presumably cover

:19:55.:20:00.

the entire network of 320 million users. Likewise, Facebook says it

:20:01.:20:05.

has several hundred people monitoring abuse, which sounds

:20:06.:20:11.

impressive, though this is a website Web 1.6 billion users. Too often

:20:12.:20:15.

users are unclear on how to report abuse and how it will be dealt with

:20:16.:20:23.

that when they do. We need greater transparency from platforms and how

:20:24.:20:27.

they enforce their terms of use, and I would urge the government to work

:20:28.:20:30.

constructively with them to encourage them to be more open about

:20:31.:20:35.

the scale of the problems and their responses. In terms of what we can

:20:36.:20:40.

do as lawmakers, there are practical responses that ministers should be

:20:41.:20:46.

considering. First and foremost, we need legislation which clearly

:20:47.:20:51.

defines online abuse and consolidates our existing laws.

:20:52.:20:56.

According to Digital trust, there are more than 30 pieces of

:20:57.:21:00.

legislation being used to tackle online crimes, including of all

:21:01.:21:05.

things the offences against the Person act of 1861. As much as we

:21:06.:21:14.

find them, it is time we ended our piecemeal approach and provided the

:21:15.:21:18.

public with confidence and the police with clarity they need to

:21:19.:21:23.

bring those offences online to book. The fragmented nature of the law

:21:24.:21:27.

means the criminal justice system is often unsure as to whether an

:21:28.:21:31.

offence has been committed, and is just not able to revive victims with

:21:32.:21:35.

the service and protection they expect and deserve. They considered

:21:36.:21:40.

Asian of the legislation can only be of value if it includes a clear

:21:41.:21:47.

definition -- the consolidation. Our current mismatch approach means

:21:48.:21:53.

adhesive Communications, which any reasonable person would judge to be

:21:54.:21:58.

acceptable, often do not reach the legal threshold and so complaints

:21:59.:22:03.

against them cannot be progressed. A clearer definition would go a long

:22:04.:22:07.

way to limit in this problem and build public trust that those in

:22:08.:22:10.

breach of the law can be held accountable. Looking at the police,

:22:11.:22:14.

it is obvious they are under incredible pressure in trying to

:22:15.:22:18.

deal with even that small proportion of online abuse, which is reported

:22:19.:22:23.

to them. It is estimated that half of all crimes reported to the police

:22:24.:22:27.

have some digital element, and they expect this to rise to 70% in the

:22:28.:22:34.

next five years. However, just 7.5% of officers in England and Wales are

:22:35.:22:37.

trained to investigate digital crime. The scale of this problem is

:22:38.:22:41.

such that all police officers need to be in a position to tackle online

:22:42.:22:46.

abuse. Knowing how to investigate and secure evidence. A consolidation

:22:47.:22:52.

of legislation must be backed up by a corresponding overall of

:22:53.:22:57.

enforcement, if we are to make any headway. That means not only a

:22:58.:23:01.

review of the training given to officers, but also a serious rethink

:23:02.:23:04.

about approaches to police recruitment. I appreciate the

:23:05.:23:13.

strains police are under, but if we did not expand the ability to clamp

:23:14.:23:17.

down, we will be stuck trying to apply 20 century methods to

:23:18.:23:22.

21st-century problems. It is encouraging that online safety is

:23:23.:23:26.

now part of the National Curriculum. We cannot underestimate the

:23:27.:23:29.

importance of education for dealing with online abuse. As much as we

:23:30.:23:33.

expect our children to learn the difference between right and wrong

:23:34.:23:36.

in the wheel world and expect them to get along with one another, so we

:23:37.:23:42.

must press home and press home early the same standards should apply

:23:43.:23:46.

online. Clearly there is no magic bullet for dealing with online

:23:47.:23:50.

abuse, but this does not mean the government should shy away from

:23:51.:23:55.

confronting it. It will take a broad strategy, worked out across

:23:56.:23:58.

departments and in fermented with service providers, charities and

:23:59.:24:02.

many others. Such plans are not cobbled together overnight but I

:24:03.:24:06.

would press the Minister to take today's debate as a starting point.

:24:07.:24:11.

If we have shown anything, it is there's a strong desire to action

:24:12.:24:15.

across the House and beyond, and I hope the government will be bold in

:24:16.:24:19.

its response to a problem that we simply cannot to fester.

:24:20.:24:25.

I would like to thank my right noble friend, but based on Stoke and Sal

:24:26.:24:33.

Pembrokeshire, for securing in this debate, an issue of utmost response.

:24:34.:24:43.

-- South Pembrokeshire. Revenge pawn was in the news recently for my own

:24:44.:24:49.

home town, just back in April was up in the wake of this case, lessons

:24:50.:24:54.

have been learned and the PCC and Chief Constable, I'm pleased to see,

:24:55.:24:59.

are redoing training on those on the front line, to improve victims's

:25:00.:25:03.

experience and claimed justice for them and better reflect how serious

:25:04.:25:08.

and damaging online produces. We need that change in culture, where

:25:09.:25:14.

online abuse is recognised as real worlds, causing as does emotional,

:25:15.:25:22.

psychological and physical damage. Over 1000 cases, the BBC Freedom

:25:23.:25:28.

education act, found only 7% receive a caution. I would like to share a

:25:29.:25:34.

victim's plea to us. Her perpetrator was one of the 7%. This is an open

:25:35.:25:43.

letter to those who have the power to lobby for change and this is my

:25:44.:25:50.

story. The perpetrator was my manager. We stayed in contact long

:25:51.:25:55.

after I laughed, left my job, remaining acquaintances via social

:25:56.:26:01.

media -- I left. I discovered a message alerting me to a website

:26:02.:26:06.

that contained my images. This website allowed individuals from all

:26:07.:26:10.

over the world to upload the pictures of unsuspecting victims,

:26:11.:26:14.

many of them children, and using those images as fodder for torture

:26:15.:26:21.

fantasies. My page, which have been crated in October 2015, revealed my

:26:22.:26:25.

full name, my personal Facebook account, a picture my toddler

:26:26.:26:29.

daughter, and alongside these images, captions such as, would love

:26:30.:26:37.

to beat her, she deserves to be gang raped. And urging people to find me,

:26:38.:26:43.

to make contact and to show me what I deserved. I felt demeaned, exposed

:26:44.:26:51.

to humiliated and embarrassed. Someone out there held all the

:26:52.:26:56.

power, I wasn't even in control of my own image anymore. I needed to

:26:57.:27:01.

take back control, so I put on my investigate a hat and after many

:27:02.:27:07.

hours of trawling, thought I had found that perpetrator. I felt

:27:08.:27:13.

initial relief and contacted the police next morning, believing I had

:27:14.:27:15.

caught a criminal but handed. In an the police operator told me

:27:16.:27:24.

there was nothing they could do because it was they police matter,

:27:25.:27:28.

but a Facebook issue. I was advised to block him, as he obviously was

:27:29.:27:34.

not my friend. I hung up the phone of feeling bitterly let down and

:27:35.:27:39.

confused. I was told I would not be getting a crime number as my case

:27:40.:27:44.

was not a real crime. It was more of a civil matter and perhaps I should

:27:45.:27:50.

seek legal advice. That legal advice told me that the definitions of the

:27:51.:27:54.

new law regarding revenge pawn and its phrasing meant that my case

:27:55.:28:03.

would not be suitable. Since I have chosen to bring this subject to the

:28:04.:28:08.

attention of the public, I have a mixed reactions. I have a strangers

:28:09.:28:11.

come up to me in the street and talk to me about it which I still find

:28:12.:28:16.

embarrassing. I have had people talk to me about it that parties where I

:28:17.:28:19.

should be enjoying myself. I have had customers asked me where they

:28:20.:28:24.

recognise me from and then give me a sympathetic and pitying look when I

:28:25.:28:30.

confirm from where. Overall, I've been cheated like a victim by

:28:31.:28:37.

everyone apart from the law. Perpetrators surely need to fear

:28:38.:28:41.

that their online actions will have real consequences. My photos are

:28:42.:28:49.

still online. I am sick of being a victim. What I ask is that with your

:28:50.:28:56.

help, never again will I and others be made to feel insignificant when

:28:57.:29:08.

reporting an online abuse crime. Of course, we've already heard today

:29:09.:29:14.

and we've heard many striking, distressing personal accounts, I

:29:15.:29:26.

thank the right honourable lady and the honourable member for South

:29:27.:29:28.

Pembrokeshire. We've had other accounts and I'm honoured to follow

:29:29.:29:32.

the member for Eastbourne and her accounts. We've heard of the

:29:33.:29:37.

frightening increase in online abuse, digital crime and hate crime.

:29:38.:29:43.

Many members of this House had been affected and literally countless

:29:44.:29:47.

people outside here have been affected by this. The National

:29:48.:29:52.

police league said last November that 50% of all reported crime and

:29:53.:29:56.

now has an online compote and and is evident that the law has not kept up

:29:57.:30:00.

with criminal activity. Online platform providers are rats best

:30:01.:30:04.

slow to address abuse and should hold both abusers and themselves to

:30:05.:30:08.

account for more effectively and rigorously. For all these reasons I

:30:09.:30:14.

introduced the ten minute rule Bill drafted by Harry Fletcher of the

:30:15.:30:17.

digital trust on this issue earlier this year in March. There are over

:30:18.:30:22.

30 statutes passed over many decades which cover online abuse crime and

:30:23.:30:26.

my bill that would place the responsibility on Government to

:30:27.:30:29.

consolidate them all. Many online activities may or may not be against

:30:30.:30:32.

the law, this but would clarify that. It will be an offence to

:30:33.:30:37.

install a webcam on a person without their permission or without

:30:38.:30:40.

legitimate reason. In addition, it would be illegal to repeatedly

:30:41.:30:46.

locate, listen to or watch a person without legitimate purpose and this

:30:47.:30:50.

bill would restrict the sale of spyware to those of 16. It would

:30:51.:30:53.

also be wrong for a person today multiple images of another person

:30:54.:30:56.

unless it was in the public interest to do so without that person's

:30:57.:31:00.

permission and where the intent was not legitimate. We've had a number

:31:01.:31:03.

of of this already. The bill would also make the law stronger on

:31:04.:31:07.

abusive content, again, police officers are uncertain about what is

:31:08.:31:10.

and what is not a crime and they are also overwhelmed by the sheer volume

:31:11.:31:14.

of abuse they see and we've heard about inconsistencies of approach by

:31:15.:31:18.

the police as well. This bill would make it clear that it is an offence

:31:19.:31:22.

to put images online with the intention is to humour late or abuse

:31:23.:31:27.

of the vixen and it also create an offence to create a message that is

:31:28.:31:30.

to scrum and eight array and would incite abusive activity. All these

:31:31.:31:34.

new offences would if put into action carry conviction is of up to

:31:35.:31:41.

a year in custody. Any new powers for the police and CPS would have

:31:42.:31:45.

limited impacts without changes to culture and training. The police

:31:46.:31:49.

mistake online abuse and hate crime seriously and the bill would place

:31:50.:31:52.

the responsibility on the Minister for education to ensure that all

:31:53.:31:54.

establishments include sessions which warn children and students of

:31:55.:31:58.

the risks of online services. We know this is happening in our

:31:59.:32:02.

schools, this is an ongoing issue and tokenistic approaches to the

:32:03.:32:05.

curriculum will not be sufficient. The Home Office will be tasked with

:32:06.:32:11.

ensuring police are trained and also record complaints of digital hate

:32:12.:32:14.

crime and abuse and finally, the bill would place duties on providers

:32:15.:32:18.

of online services to adhere to codes of professional standards,

:32:19.:32:23.

publish safety impact assessments and fully cooperate with the police

:32:24.:32:27.

an ongoing investigations. The relevant ministers should also

:32:28.:32:29.

ensure the best quality standards are followed across the industry.

:32:30.:32:33.

I'm sure we all have a number of case studies we could talk about

:32:34.:32:38.

here, but there was one from someone who wishes to remain anonymous, so I

:32:39.:32:42.

will respect that, but I very much wanted to raise this case, because

:32:43.:32:45.

it involved Facebook. It was a gentleman who is a teacher and

:32:46.:32:50.

because I have my background prior to being fortunate to arrive in this

:32:51.:32:56.

House a year ago, I was also a teacher and I was very much aware of

:32:57.:33:00.

the impact that teachers... How vulnerable they are so, some pupils

:33:01.:33:07.

and others. Obviously, the importance of child protection and

:33:08.:33:11.

how they can be used against teachers at how little protection

:33:12.:33:15.

they have. This gentleman contact me earlier this week to express his

:33:16.:33:20.

frustration at Facebook and despite having no Facebook account itself,

:33:21.:33:24.

pupils have stolen images from his website and used them to create a

:33:25.:33:29.

false Facebook page in his name. This page then attracted other

:33:30.:33:34.

pupils at his school. The head teacher, who not unusually, had

:33:35.:33:38.

little understanding or experience of Facebook at one stage suspected

:33:39.:33:42.

that each of the liberally attracting pupils. If the pupils had

:33:43.:33:48.

not finally admitted to creating the page, the teacher could easily have

:33:49.:33:51.

lost his job, as he was effectively unable to approve it was not

:33:52.:33:56.

responsible for the page. The vixen in this instance state of the police

:33:57.:33:58.

could only advise him to contact Facebook. -- victim. Facebook were

:33:59.:34:07.

unhelpful and I am summarising the magnitude of the problems he had

:34:08.:34:11.

with Facebook. Firstly, the teacher to get the password details from the

:34:12.:34:15.

pupils are the page taken down. Secondly, and I feel it is

:34:16.:34:19.

important, when raising questions about data protection, it became

:34:20.:34:23.

apparent that he had to apply to the data protection Commissioner of

:34:24.:34:27.

Ireland, as that is where Facebook's International office is based, and

:34:28.:34:30.

all law except that of the United States and Canada in that case, has

:34:31.:34:36.

to be cheated -- handed -- handled through that commission. It seems

:34:37.:34:39.

Facebook has broad expectations of the users behaviour but are willing

:34:40.:34:46.

to take little responsibility as a platform themselves for that

:34:47.:34:50.

behaviour. There is a worrying lack of procedures to take down sites

:34:51.:34:55.

with the onus on the victims to prove their identity. Facebook and

:34:56.:34:58.

other sites need to be held to account for the nature of the

:34:59.:35:00.

services they provide to users and whether those services in corporate

:35:01.:35:04.

propaganda for customers and the public at large. It is not good

:35:05.:35:09.

enough, and I had one of these messages on Twitter about 20 minutes

:35:10.:35:12.

ago, it is not good enough Twitter to tell me to hide myself away and

:35:13.:35:15.

to block messages from certain people. I want those people and

:35:16.:35:20.

Twitter held to account if there are unacceptable messages on my account.

:35:21.:35:26.

Finally, I believe the nature of how social media providers fulfil their

:35:27.:35:29.

duty of care to private individuals and requires Fat follow

:35:30.:35:32.

Parliamentary scrutiny and I await the minister's response. Thank you,

:35:33.:35:39.

Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to find the Backbench Business

:35:40.:35:41.

Committee for having granted this debate and also my friend the

:35:42.:35:51.

honourable than before Basingstoke. -- for Basingstoke. I'm sure many

:35:52.:35:54.

members will have met in their surgeries the victims of online

:35:55.:36:00.

abuse or their parents who come to those seeking either some sort of

:36:01.:36:04.

redress or more often than not, some ongoing safety for their children.

:36:05.:36:08.

It is interesting to know that organisations like the girl guides

:36:09.:36:13.

with their attitude survey annually ascertain that cyber bullying is in

:36:14.:36:16.

the top three concerns of girls between the ages of 15 and 20. It is

:36:17.:36:22.

growing in its significance and indeed the impact it has on its

:36:23.:36:28.

victims. Abuse is abuse. Wherever and however it happens. Just because

:36:29.:36:32.

it is online, does not make it any less awful, but it does make it

:36:33.:36:36.

significantly harder to identify perpetrators and bring them to

:36:37.:36:39.

justice. It is not good enough to shrug one's shoulders and dismiss

:36:40.:36:44.

the Internet as some sort of wild West ungovernable and devoid of

:36:45.:36:47.

social norms and laws of the physical world. We have two, bring

:36:48.:36:55.

an end to anonymity. -- we have to bring an end to anonymity. But we

:36:56.:36:59.

must remember the victims are mostly children. I vividly recall my

:37:00.:37:03.

daughter's going from primary to secondary school when her

:37:04.:37:06.

headteacher got parents together to talk about the perils of Facebook.

:37:07.:37:11.

At that time, social media was growing in popularity but was still

:37:12.:37:14.

relatively small and there was not the multitude of platforms that

:37:15.:37:18.

there are now. The phrase she used which will always stick with me is

:37:19.:37:24.

that to be quite frank, children are losing the ability to empathise,

:37:25.:37:28.

because in her view, there were making unpleasant comments online,

:37:29.:37:30.

and unlike in the playground, when you do it on your smartphone, you do

:37:31.:37:35.

not see the reaction in some's eyes. He not learning about the hurts, but

:37:36.:37:39.

banking out a message which can have a terrible impact. The ability to

:37:40.:37:44.

understand and comprehend the hurts you have caused is disappearing. It

:37:45.:37:49.

is not just children losing that ability. People often say the most

:37:50.:37:54.

dreadful things online they would never repeat in person or even on

:37:55.:37:58.

the telephone. I sometimes find the best tactic if I receive an abusive

:37:59.:38:03.

e-mail is to phone up the person and suddenly they turn into the most

:38:04.:38:07.

polite and delightful constituent I could ever encounter. Just to say

:38:08.:38:18.

that sometimes taking that even further, I have personally knocked

:38:19.:38:21.

on doors of people who been particularly abusive and they

:38:22.:38:29.

crumble. By honourable friend is slightly braver than me. But she

:38:30.:38:33.

used the phrase keyboard warriors, who we find are incredibly brave in

:38:34.:38:37.

the sanctuary of their own homes but timid in the real world. I always

:38:38.:38:41.

think when you see online trolls who have been arrested and pictures

:38:42.:38:44.

appear in the paper, they always look terribly inadequate and the

:38:45.:38:47.

monsters they have made themselves in people's minds are not borne out

:38:48.:38:52.

in reality. This info don't understand the terror that they can

:38:53.:38:57.

cause. I've had my own experience of this and I remember vividly a

:38:58.:39:01.

Facebook message I received from the of the purporting to be a woman

:39:02.:39:07.

hiding behind a photograph of a dead lady, whose death had been covered

:39:08.:39:12.

in the newspaper. They sent the most terrible message to me,

:39:13.:39:14.

threateningly with rape, torture and ultimately death. And the greatest

:39:15.:39:20.

experience I learned from that was it will take many months to read all

:39:21.:39:23.

identities out of Facebook and they do appear to have become the

:39:24.:39:26.

bogeyman of this debate and I think deservedly so. The actual

:39:27.:39:31.

identities, when you find them, there is a sense of relief, because

:39:32.:39:35.

it's an identifiable person and not necessarily somebody who lives

:39:36.:39:39.

anywhere near you in the country, but it can be absolutely terrifying.

:39:40.:39:47.

In this place... Question. Newspapers are not allowed to print

:39:48.:39:51.

libels or defamatory comments or slanderous comments. Why cannot not

:39:52.:39:58.

apply to social media platforms as well? He is absolutely correct, it

:39:59.:40:03.

should apply to social media platforms and we as individuals

:40:04.:40:05.

should be able to take action much more quickly and effectively against

:40:06.:40:11.

them. It is as I said as if the Internet has become the wild West

:40:12.:40:14.

where companies are often registered in the Republic of Ireland and it is

:40:15.:40:17.

difficult from here to get the redress that we want. Sadly, in this

:40:18.:40:23.

place, we've come to expect it, the trolling, the bile spat in the dead

:40:24.:40:27.

of night and sometimes even from professional people who we might

:40:28.:40:29.

hope would value their reputation and know better. We know the bar is

:40:30.:40:34.

set high for members of Parliament, we are in the public eye and have

:40:35.:40:39.

come to expect a bit of knock-about as it were. But it has actually gone

:40:40.:40:43.

a great deal further than that. I would like to be a tribute to the

:40:44.:40:47.

work the Right Honourable member for Norman to come upon to act in

:40:48.:40:50.

Castleford has done to reclaim the Internet. One of my favourite

:40:51.:40:53.

tactics and I may now get trolled for this, is it that someone sent me

:40:54.:40:58.

something pernicious, I reply with a picture of a kitten. We have to

:40:59.:41:06.

reclaim the Internet. We must be bold enough to stand up for

:41:07.:41:09.

ourselves and try and engender a bit of humour, kindness and I think that

:41:10.:41:15.

is the missing point, that there is no kindness on the Internet. Quite

:41:16.:41:19.

frankly, when did it become OK to play the man and not the ball? Might

:41:20.:41:30.

honourable friend made some cogent arguments and ministers have worked

:41:31.:41:34.

hard on this with leading companies to find practical solutions about

:41:35.:41:38.

identifying perpetrators. The laws of harassment and grooming all exist

:41:39.:41:41.

as we have heard, but the very real anxieties about our victims can

:41:42.:41:44.

report crimes easily and have their voices heard... Does my honourable

:41:45.:41:53.

friend thing we should be looking at Australia and New Zealand who have

:41:54.:41:55.

established websites to facilitate reporting and in fact may be at risk

:41:56.:42:00.

of leaving the UK behind in the way they are trying to tackle this?

:42:01.:42:06.

We have to find better method of reporting and took leave the

:42:07.:42:12.

children. I will reinforce the plea my right honourable friend made

:42:13.:42:15.

earlier, there need to be safe spaces were children and mechanisms

:42:16.:42:19.

by which young people know who they can turn to. A critical part of that

:42:20.:42:26.

is within schools,, particularly young people, they need to learn

:42:27.:42:30.

about consent. They need to know what is OK in a relation ship. They

:42:31.:42:36.

need to have people who they can turn to, to make sure they are

:42:37.:42:40.

safeguarded and protected. We want them to be confident in themselves

:42:41.:42:45.

and to know who they can turn to in a crisis, not one of the reasons why

:42:46.:42:52.

I am so keen on compulsory SRE, because we need our young people to

:42:53.:42:55.

recognise what is an abusive relationship. We need them to have

:42:56.:43:00.

people who they can tell, to have teachers who are well-equipped to

:43:01.:43:04.

deal with it. These are not easy subjects, therefore make them

:43:05.:43:08.

statuary and make sure the training is put in to make it as competent in

:43:09.:43:13.

their ability to deliver excellent quality in this respect. My right

:43:14.:43:18.

honourable friend has described the blurring of offline and online

:43:19.:43:23.

worlds, and we need to plot a path to make sure our children are much

:43:24.:43:25.

more secure and protected. Like everybody, I would like to

:43:26.:43:36.

thank the right honourable member for Basingstoke to bring in this

:43:37.:43:41.

debate, it is important we should raise these issues. I'm shocked to

:43:42.:43:47.

hear some of the examples given today. I am going to add to them,

:43:48.:43:54.

I'm afraid. Online abuse isn't a technological problem, it is a

:43:55.:43:57.

social problem that just happens to be powered by technology. I won't

:43:58.:44:04.

deny that social media can be a force for good. For disseminating

:44:05.:44:08.

information, the sharing jokes or for simply keeping in contact with

:44:09.:44:13.

friends and relatives. And as MPs, as many honourable friends and

:44:14.:44:16.

members have referred to, we own courage to be as accessible as

:44:17.:44:23.

possible, to be out there with our websites -- we are in courage.

:44:24.:44:30.

More and more, and as the mill MPs, our out there, makes as targets for

:44:31.:44:43.

abuse, and we will have a story of vile comments posted to or about

:44:44.:44:49.

them, and choose you from anonymous sources -- as a female MPs. By

:44:50.:44:54.

allowing to rampage unchecked, social media becomes more aptly

:44:55.:45:01.

titled and social media. We have the free argument, which too many

:45:02.:45:07.

people, appears to be the divine right to say what ever is on your

:45:08.:45:12.

mind without any regard to the consequences. With free-speech comes

:45:13.:45:17.

the responsibility to deal with the consequences of one's words. My

:45:18.:45:23.

issues with particular reference to Twitter and Facebook are the

:45:24.:45:27.

apparent lack of a coherent policy on what action it constitutes online

:45:28.:45:31.

abuse. I would like to give a few examples. Twitter policy states, and

:45:32.:45:39.

I quote, we do not tolerate behaviour that crosses the line into

:45:40.:45:44.

abuse, including behaviour that harasses, intimidates or users via

:45:45.:45:50.

to silence another user's boys. So, with this in mind, when I received a

:45:51.:45:57.

threat on Twitter in the referendum debate, saying, and I quote, we will

:45:58.:46:01.

see what you say when an immigrant rapes you or one of your kids, I

:46:02.:46:07.

reported it to Twitter, using their online pro forma. Surely this

:46:08.:46:13.

racist, violent and targeted abuse crossed that line into behaviour

:46:14.:46:19.

that harasses and intimidates, which twitter policy claims to be against.

:46:20.:46:24.

But no, the response I received from Twitter was, it is not currently

:46:25.:46:30.

violating the twitter rules. And with regard to Facebook, the killers

:46:31.:46:38.

of Lee Rigby, Lee from Middleton, his killers posted explicitly on

:46:39.:46:43.

Facebook what they were planning, get this was never picked up and

:46:44.:46:49.

investigated. I reason you reported a vile and misogynistic comments

:46:50.:46:52.

made about another female MP on Facebook saying, and they

:46:53.:46:58.

selectively quote, she looks like a mutant and should be burnt at the

:46:59.:47:04.

stake. And this comment with that foul language and provided

:47:05.:47:10.

Cartwright nation of women as witches -- categorisation. We have

:47:11.:47:17.

reviewed the comments and found it doesn't violate our keening 80

:47:18.:47:22.

standards. The reply went on to say, please let us know if you see

:47:23.:47:26.

anything else that concerns you, we want to keep Facebook safe and

:47:27.:47:31.

welcoming. If that is a Facebook's idea of a say safe and welcoming and

:47:32.:47:36.

vibrant, I would like to see what they think is a no go area. Being

:47:37.:47:41.

serious, and I am being totally serious, it will be the responsible

:47:42.:47:46.

thing for Twitter and Facebook to use algorithms to pick out hate

:47:47.:47:53.

speech, words such as Islamophobic, murder, rove, they could be picked

:47:54.:47:56.

up and those accounts could be investigated. It is irresponsible of

:47:57.:48:01.

social media platforms to allow company fleet unchecked and

:48:02.:48:07.

unregulated discourse, and it would not happen in any walk of life.

:48:08.:48:13.

Twitter and Facebook appear to reply solely upon users reporting abuse

:48:14.:48:18.

and hate speech to them. Placing responsibility solely upon the user,

:48:19.:48:24.

and even then, the pro forma reporting procedure is often too

:48:25.:48:28.

simplistic to allow for the actual problem and concerned to be

:48:29.:48:34.

accurately conveyed. And yes, the police can be notified, but we have

:48:35.:48:41.

all seen the diminishment of police numbers, and I call upon the

:48:42.:48:45.

government to make funding available for training and increasing police

:48:46.:48:52.

numbers to deal with online abuse. And I'm interested in the suggestion

:48:53.:48:59.

regarding asking social media platforms to actually provide a levy

:49:00.:49:05.

to pay for increasing training and numbers to deal with this issue. And

:49:06.:49:11.

I'd would just like to talk about the gender issue, I have

:49:12.:49:15.

concentrated on abuse towards female politicians and I accept online

:49:16.:49:18.

abuse takes many other forms and many other groups are targeted. But

:49:19.:49:24.

online abuse does seem to be a gender issue, and abuse is directed

:49:25.:49:28.

more towards female politicians than to our male counterparts. In the UK,

:49:29.:49:35.

studies have shown 82% of this abuse recorded comes from male sources.

:49:36.:49:41.

Social networks could take a strong and meaningful stance against

:49:42.:49:44.

harassment is, simply by applying the same sort of standard that we

:49:45.:49:49.

already apply in our public and professional lives. Wishing rape or

:49:50.:49:55.

other violence upon women, or using to rocketry slurs, would be

:49:56.:50:01.

unacceptable in most workplaces or communities. Those who engage in

:50:02.:50:05.

such a patrol would be reprimanded or asked to leave, so why shouldn't

:50:06.:50:10.

that be the response in our online lives? Letters never forget that

:50:11.:50:16.

words carry weight and language has a consequence. Once it has been

:50:17.:50:20.

said, it cannot be unsaid. Whether that be at face-to-face or typed

:50:21.:50:25.

from behind a social media avatar, there is no hiding from meaning, and

:50:26.:50:31.

we should confront now this ever spreading plague of misogyny, abuse

:50:32.:50:39.

and threats online. I would like to begin to page should be to my right

:50:40.:50:45.

honourable friend and the backbench business committee. She is a great

:50:46.:50:49.

champion of causes like these, and the passion in all our speeches

:50:50.:50:54.

shows how important it is. 21 years ago I sat with a wise and

:50:55.:50:59.

far-sighted friends of mine, and we talk about a new phenomenon called

:51:00.:51:04.

the Internet. At the time all I knew was what the scientists at

:51:05.:51:10.

University talks about. He said we would live through a revolution as

:51:11.:51:15.

great and rolling as that brought by the proliferation of newsprint in

:51:16.:51:20.

the 17th century, and it would lead to a new way of communicating,

:51:21.:51:25.

indeed a complete shift in social discourse. So, it has proven. I've

:51:26.:51:30.

returned that conversation many times over the last two decades and

:51:31.:51:35.

never more so than in preparing for this debate today. We as legislators

:51:36.:51:41.

are on the whole print children, but we need to draft laws for our own

:51:42.:51:49.

digital children. I would to quote from the recent dissenting judgment

:51:50.:51:53.

in the case of PJS against News group newspapers, which, and I'm

:51:54.:51:59.

sure people know, involved a celebrity couple trying to stop

:52:00.:52:02.

publication of their identities in print form, even know their names

:52:03.:52:07.

were quoted on the Internet. They said the court must live in the

:52:08.:52:11.

world as it is, and not as it was likely to be. The court needs to be

:52:12.:52:16.

cautious about granting an injunction preventing publication of

:52:17.:52:19.

what is widely known. If it is not to lose public respect for the law

:52:20.:52:24.

by giving the appearance of being out of touch with reality. I'm not

:52:25.:52:29.

making comment on the right or wrong is of that particular case, but what

:52:30.:52:35.

I want to say is, we as legislators must adapt to the new lives and the

:52:36.:52:43.

threats which face all of us today. Online abuse is crime, it is not

:52:44.:52:48.

banter, it is not teasing, and it is not the exercise of free speech. The

:52:49.:52:55.

honourable lady spoke powerfully and indeed many honourable members,

:52:56.:53:00.

females, although I'm glad to see men in the chamber now, have talked

:53:01.:53:04.

about their own experiences and I pay tribute to them, as to the

:53:05.:53:12.

victim 's statement we heard from. Online abuse in and of itself as a

:53:13.:53:19.

crime, and the effect it has, anxiety, depression, changes in

:53:20.:53:23.

everyday behaviour, resulting in people staying at home, not being

:53:24.:53:29.

able to go to their jobs, sometimes linking to suicide. And crucially,

:53:30.:53:35.

online abuse is a gateway to real-world stalking, physical and

:53:36.:53:39.

sexual abuse and even murder. The digital trust has highlighted the

:53:40.:53:48.

murders of Angela Hoyte and Lorna Smith, all of which began in the

:53:49.:53:52.

virtual world. I'm sure like many members, every time we meet teachers

:53:53.:53:56.

they report online abuse as one of the factors in mental health

:53:57.:54:05.

problems in the young. In terms of crime prevention and reduction,

:54:06.:54:11.

there needs to be changes always in the environment, so society's

:54:12.:54:15.

attitudes, and these run in parallel or sometimes slightly behind changes

:54:16.:54:20.

in law. Many members today have talked about cultural changes and

:54:21.:54:23.

how there needs to be cultural changes. If we look back on social

:54:24.:54:29.

changes over the last half a century, often we are the leaders in

:54:30.:54:34.

this place and society follows us. I will happily give away. I want to

:54:35.:54:43.

draw her attention, I put down a member 's bill in March to address

:54:44.:54:47.

malicious Communications on social media and I wanted to say I would be

:54:48.:54:51.

delighted to work with colleagues across a table to see if we can use

:54:52.:54:55.

that as a vehicle for change in legislation. I applaud the

:54:56.:55:05.

honourable lady's Private members Bill and I'm sure there will be

:55:06.:55:13.

people supporting her. Talking about the way legislative changes go

:55:14.:55:17.

instead, think about the strides which have been taken over the last

:55:18.:55:22.

40 years, changing society's attitudes to sexual and physical

:55:23.:55:25.

violence against women and children. I remember at law school, rape in

:55:26.:55:31.

marriage was still allowed. Think about when we were at primary

:55:32.:55:37.

school, our teachers could smack us, we had to legislate before society

:55:38.:55:41.

could follow as for top it is incumbent on us to lead that charge.

:55:42.:55:51.

Children... Schools take Susie their duties to children on bullying and

:55:52.:55:54.

what happens in the playground, but the virtual playgrounds, our

:55:55.:56:01.

children spend a lot of time there, so we need to make sure that as a

:56:02.:56:06.

safe space as well. The Internet, as compared to the real world, is still

:56:07.:56:11.

largely governed and some people argue it is an ungovernable space

:56:12.:56:19.

where an online abuse's views go unchallenged, but they are

:56:20.:56:22.

reinforced, amplified and Richard. I know I spoken to my Chief Constable

:56:23.:56:29.

in Lincolnshire -- and unchallenged. I know the steps he takes, and yet

:56:30.:56:34.

try as they might, they need more support. Victim support have said

:56:35.:56:44.

only 7500 police officers have been specially trained to investigate

:56:45.:56:48.

digital crime. I would ask the Minister if he would make reticent

:56:49.:56:53.

Asians to Home Office ministers about plans to increase that. --

:56:54.:57:04.

discussions to Home Office. Perhaps we might call it a ragtag of laws

:57:05.:57:10.

which deals with online abuse. I would wish the government to do a

:57:11.:57:14.

review of the laws so we are not out of touch with reality and I would

:57:15.:57:19.

wholeheartedly echo and agree with the suggestions on changes to law

:57:20.:57:21.

this area. Our current law of libel had its

:57:22.:57:32.

origins in the 17th century proof oration of newsprint. We need to

:57:33.:57:36.

respond to the current revolution in communications and social discourse

:57:37.:57:41.

by legislating for the world as it is not as we would it to be. Thank

:57:42.:57:51.

you, and I'm grateful being escalated because this allows me

:57:52.:58:03.

to... I would like to extend my thanks to the member for Basingstoke

:58:04.:58:13.

for securing this debate. It strikes me that this chamber is dominated

:58:14.:58:16.

today by a female presence and I think that confirms what we may not

:58:17.:58:22.

be scientifically, but what we know instinctively is this issue is the

:58:23.:58:26.

bid to kill a live for female MPs that conference them are far more

:58:27.:58:32.

often than it should and much of it at heart is based on the sodden it.

:58:33.:58:36.

We've heard from a number of speakers today and all understand I

:58:37.:58:42.

think that online abuse is a serious and growing problem and

:58:43.:58:44.

unfortunately, we live in a world where it is deemed acceptable for

:58:45.:58:48.

some people, keyboard warriors that they will be called to hide behind

:58:49.:58:51.

their computer or tablet and target abuse and aggression towards people

:58:52.:58:56.

they simply do not like, simply because they can. The anonymity and

:58:57.:59:02.

distance from which the abuse is hurled it was the sender of such

:59:03.:59:06.

messages courage that they would not otherwise feel with the added bonus

:59:07.:59:14.

that whatever they wish to say, however hurtful, aggressive,

:59:15.:59:16.

threatening or nasty can be said with impunity. How cowardly. I fully

:59:17.:59:25.

applaud and support the work of the reclaim the Internet campaign which

:59:26.:59:29.

is a call for action to challenge abuse online, bringing together

:59:30.:59:32.

groups from across civic society to a signal that enough. Such online

:59:33.:59:39.

abuse is not acceptable and anyone responsible for it must be held

:59:40.:59:45.

accountable. One of the most pernicious aspects of online abuse

:59:46.:59:49.

is that it seeks to normalise bullying and intimidation of the

:59:50.:59:53.

people. We wouldn't tolerate such abuse off-line, so it must not be

:59:54.:59:58.

tolerated online. What kind of world are we building for our younger

:59:59.:00:03.

people when the UK safer Internet centre published a study which found

:00:04.:00:08.

that of those 13-18 -year-olds survey, 24% had been targeted

:00:09.:00:12.

because of their gender, sexual orientation, race, religion or

:00:13.:00:16.

disability and victim support has found that 41% of young people

:00:17.:00:20.

report a persistent and targeted and bullying online from their peers.

:00:21.:00:28.

Those who send such messages are in my view clearly intending to hurt or

:00:29.:00:33.

frighten or distress the recipients. Do they think of the consequences,

:00:34.:00:39.

the impact their views have on the recipient? Sadly, I believe they

:00:40.:00:43.

simply don't care. And in the political sphere, too, where people

:00:44.:00:48.

use the Internet threat of violence, though vile abuse or seek to silence

:00:49.:00:53.

the voice of others through intimidation, this is simply an

:00:54.:00:56.

acceptable and that is the message that must go out from this place.

:00:57.:01:01.

Robust political debate is part of our public life and we must foster

:01:02.:01:09.

and cherish it. But what we cannot tolerate is the lowering of

:01:10.:01:13.

political debate to threats of violence or to in the sauce based on

:01:14.:01:17.

the for Geneva, homophobia, sexism, race or disability. It was counter

:01:18.:01:25.

the idea that is legitimate to abuse someone online simply because they

:01:26.:01:29.

are in public life. That I believe in roads and cheapens democracy and

:01:30.:01:36.

ultimately, legitimises abuse and abusive behaviour in wider society.

:01:37.:01:40.

Regardless of political differences, debate must be conducted with the

:01:41.:01:46.

respect and I fear over the last couple of years, too many people

:01:47.:01:51.

seem to forget this. Abuse online can be just as destructive,

:01:52.:01:54.

distressing, upsetting and disempowering as a physical abuse.

:01:55.:01:59.

As far as I can see, the perpetrator of such abuse is seeking to shut up,

:02:00.:02:07.

close down or silence the voice of the person they choose to abuse. The

:02:08.:02:14.

are working hard to adapt practices to cope with the new world we live

:02:15.:02:18.

in where the Internet has added a new damage to criminal acts, and

:02:19.:02:22.

make no mistake, criminal acts are what we are talking about here and

:02:23.:02:26.

there are currently at least 30 different pieces of legislation

:02:27.:02:28.

covering online abuse in various ways. This legislation must be fully

:02:29.:02:34.

utilised and victim support is calling for a review to identify any

:02:35.:02:39.

possible gaps in existing legislation and that's a very

:02:40.:02:42.

important points, since it is estimated that within around five

:02:43.:02:48.

years, 70% of all crime will be cyber enabled and the Criminal

:02:49.:02:52.

Justice System must be in a position to flexibly and adequately respond

:02:53.:02:56.

to this and support to victims were required and I would like to hear

:02:57.:03:01.

the minister's thoughts on this. The everyday, casual online abuse to

:03:02.:03:05.

many people see must not be seen as harmless or something which should

:03:06.:03:09.

be dismissed and deleted. It must be sought out and challenged. And like

:03:10.:03:15.

so many of my colleagues in this place and like to many ordinary,

:03:16.:03:18.

hard-working people who we represent, we have to face this

:03:19.:03:22.

casual abuse and like so many others, I have until recently when

:03:23.:03:28.

this has occurred, simply press the delete or block whenever I have been

:03:29.:03:31.

in receipt of such nastiness and abuse. But now, I report it to the

:03:32.:03:38.

police and I have cause indeed to do so recently in the light of the

:03:39.:03:41.

appalling and dreadful murder of the late member for Batley and spend. No

:03:42.:03:48.

one should have to tolerate abuse, no matter what line of work they do,

:03:49.:03:54.

no matter what justification the centre of the abuse may feel that

:03:55.:03:58.

they have. It is not on. It seems the most common victim of such abuse

:03:59.:04:02.

are women and children, but we know the problem is widespread and affect

:04:03.:04:07.

others outside these groups. If we are to seek to have any credibility

:04:08.:04:10.

in this place, we all and affect others outside these groups. If we

:04:11.:04:13.

are to seek to have any credibility in this place, we all need to send a

:04:14.:04:16.

clear message and use our position as MPs and indeed as leaders of

:04:17.:04:18.

political parties to unequivocally condemn a this behaviour as the

:04:19.:04:22.

First Minister of Scotland has the from wherever it comes. And I used

:04:23.:04:27.

to think as I'm sure many people here used to think, that the

:04:28.:04:31.

deleting such messages was enough. I no longer think that. We as MPs have

:04:32.:04:36.

a duty to ensure it is challenged and by doing so, deterring those who

:04:37.:04:43.

would engage in such activity. And I sincerely hope that this debate will

:04:44.:04:46.

send a clear message to those who feel that they can abuse any person

:04:47.:04:50.

that they choose to typing nastier and abusive comments on their

:04:51.:04:57.

keyboard, that there is no hiding place. This behaviour is cowardly

:04:58.:05:01.

and reprehensible, and we must encourage and support all such

:05:02.:05:05.

victims of abuse report it to the police. We as MPs must ensure we do

:05:06.:05:12.

the same. It really is time to reclaim the social media from those

:05:13.:05:16.

who use it as a vehicle to work out their own personal frustrations and

:05:17.:05:20.

tendencies to bully as they would see fit with impunity. Enough is

:05:21.:05:30.

enough. . I made -- met a fair share of the bullies in my time, but as

:05:31.:05:35.

you may have noticed, as they used to say my home town of Liverpool, I

:05:36.:05:40.

am built like a chap who is built like a brick outhouse, which is the

:05:41.:05:44.

Parliamentary version, so they've not bothered me much over the years.

:05:45.:05:49.

I'm aware, not least as a father, that the Internet and social media

:05:50.:05:53.

has brought about to big changes that have meant I probably would

:05:54.:05:57.

have not avoided were I a teenager now. First of all, it is 24-7, it is

:05:58.:06:02.

inescapable, there is no refuge from a bullying these days, no chance to

:06:03.:06:06.

get up, shut the door, sit down to your fish fingers safe in the

:06:07.:06:09.

knowledge it won't occur again the lease for a few hours. But also

:06:10.:06:15.

because social media has unfortunately decreased the

:06:16.:06:18.

resilience of our children, creating a host of exploitable

:06:19.:06:22.

vulnerabilities from eating disorders to self harming and

:06:23.:06:26.

harmful sexual behaviour and depression and anxiety. For

:06:27.:06:29.

teenagers, many of who are hard-wired to take the judgments of

:06:30.:06:33.

others more too hot, the amplification of bullying that the

:06:34.:06:36.

online world allows is going to lead to more permanent damage. As many

:06:37.:06:41.

members have already said, it is pretty shocking that we have allowed

:06:42.:06:45.

it to get to this stage. We seem to have sleepwalked into an epidemic of

:06:46.:06:49.

terrible mental health among children in particular whose

:06:50.:06:52.

self-confidence has been wrecked by social media with its unrealistic

:06:53.:06:56.

expectations and the kind of digital solipsism that it seems to

:06:57.:07:00.

encourage. Perhaps it is because we have been too wrapped up in our own

:07:01.:07:03.

smartphones to notice their obsession. To wrapped up to remember

:07:04.:07:09.

that in society there are to distinct types of people. Adults and

:07:10.:07:14.

children. And it is the jobs of adults to make decisions about the

:07:15.:07:17.

jobs -- boundaries that protect children from harm even when they do

:07:18.:07:23.

not like it. Instead, I fear we have been carried away by technology

:07:24.:07:28.

which has led us to become too indulgent to be seen to be

:07:29.:07:31.

backtracking. The current generation of teenagers are glued, perhaps

:07:32.:07:36.

irreversibly, to a social media world for the image of the

:07:37.:07:41.

continuously perfect, happy people, who are so obviously fictional, but

:07:42.:07:47.

nevertheless paired with the same unavoidable realisation that

:07:48.:07:50.

teenagers can never attain the ideal. The result is both an

:07:51.:07:54.

insatiable sense of entitlement combine with a crushing hopelessness

:07:55.:07:57.

which can only lead to self loathing and anger. They are made to feel all

:07:58.:08:02.

too often like failures. Flow into this makes the pressure of exams and

:08:03.:08:07.

the signal sent to them that their entire future and value rests,

:08:08.:08:11.

academic performance or their social standing at school and there is no

:08:12.:08:14.

wonder that cyber bullying is the cheaper for a whole host of

:08:15.:08:19.

problems. These pressures contributed deep unhappiness and

:08:20.:08:23.

many feel the need to put on a brave face and not burden families which

:08:24.:08:26.

only further compounds the isolation. As the president of

:08:27.:08:31.

ChildLine wrote recently, unhappiness and low self-esteem are

:08:32.:08:35.

the main youth phenomena they are seeing. It only appeared in the top

:08:36.:08:41.

five of children and their worries a few years ago, but for last year

:08:42.:08:45.

alone accounted for 35,200 over counselling sessions. Make no

:08:46.:08:49.

mistake, so far, we have done little to halt this trend and it's only

:08:50.:08:54.

going to get worse. We must not consign the next generation of

:08:55.:09:00.

teenagers do the same fate. -- to the same fate. In regard to this

:09:01.:09:06.

debate, the resilience sapping of social media and addiction to

:09:07.:09:10.

smartphones is far more fundamental and intractable than the cyber

:09:11.:09:13.

bullying issue which is a product of it. There is of course much to be

:09:14.:09:19.

said about how we can tackle cyber bullying and many honourable members

:09:20.:09:23.

have mentioned that today. Many people need to be involved in that

:09:24.:09:27.

conversation and consultation will have to include megacorporations

:09:28.:09:31.

such as Facebook that the common platforms where this problem occurs.

:09:32.:09:36.

I do think the way in which we have led the resilience issue get out of

:09:37.:09:40.

control is the result of complacency in Parliament and inertia in the law

:09:41.:09:43.

that we need to address more urgently than the bullying issue.

:09:44.:09:47.

Like many members, the response to this bullying issue would, I hope,

:09:48.:09:52.

take the shape of a new online offences act which would replace the

:09:53.:09:57.

30 plus pieces of legislation covering online abuse at the moment.

:09:58.:10:01.

I would hope that amongst other things it would include the specific

:10:02.:10:05.

online abuse offenders, as well as an extensive definition of duties

:10:06.:10:09.

that Internet service providers have two our young people as well. But

:10:10.:10:15.

more on this resilience issue, we also need to get on with a children

:10:16.:10:20.

and Young Persons act fit for the age in which we can clearly define

:10:21.:10:23.

the duties of parents in law to help them cope with the impact of social

:10:24.:10:27.

media on their children. It is plainly not right that those under

:10:28.:10:32.

16 spend an average of the hours online a day making them, according

:10:33.:10:35.

to experts, much more likely to suffer mental health problems. --.

:10:36.:10:41.

All that was 12-15 -year-olds have their own smartphones and that

:10:42.:10:46.

there's done what they are doing on them. Spending too much time on

:10:47.:10:49.

social media has been shown to inhibit personal development

:10:50.:10:54.

according to research and we need to be less complacent about this. This

:10:55.:10:58.

has been allowed to happen partly due to parliament complacency, but

:10:59.:11:04.

also because of parental naivete and short-sightedness here. We need to

:11:05.:11:08.

put this right. No one is especially to blame, but this House has failed

:11:09.:11:12.

problems consider this issue and it is the same reason parents across

:11:13.:11:14.

the country and around the world get caught out so badly by change.

:11:15.:11:29.

The pace of change also explains how the main pieces of legislation on

:11:30.:11:37.

children so out of date. The 1933 children and Young Persons act and

:11:38.:11:42.

the 1989 children's act concept of the framework upon which we still

:11:43.:11:46.

operate today. They cannot have anything to say about parents duties

:11:47.:11:50.

to children in the social media age or about cyber bullying. Making it

:11:51.:11:56.

harder still, it appears getting the guidance and supervision right

:11:57.:12:00.

requires a level of intrusion that wasn't commonplace amongst parents

:12:01.:12:04.

of previous generations. Which children today will certainly resent

:12:05.:12:08.

and resist. Understandably given where we are now, any group of

:12:09.:12:12.

teenagers would react with horror to the idea of handing their

:12:13.:12:15.

smartphones in at the beginning of the school day and picking them up

:12:16.:12:20.

at home time. The idea... By all means. He said teenagers might

:12:21.:12:27.

resisted but he did begin by saying there are two people, two groups of

:12:28.:12:32.

people in this world, adults and children, surely it is incumbent on

:12:33.:12:41.

us to make them give them up. Exactly that, as I was about to say.

:12:42.:12:47.

But I will be firm here and say the reason we haven't done something in

:12:48.:12:51.

a systematic way, when children and to extras have been telling us for

:12:52.:12:58.

some time there was trouble brewing, down to weakness that teaches act

:12:59.:13:03.

that children should set the rules. Once again, adults are soon to be

:13:04.:13:08.

unwilling to act as adults, meaning action has been weak or tentative.

:13:09.:13:15.

However, given the gravity, we cannot afford for this to continue.

:13:16.:13:21.

We need a new direction for which to approach this important area, that

:13:22.:13:24.

is right to do with the causes as well as the fallout. I fear this is

:13:25.:13:28.

again down to an indulgence that leads people to the conclusion we

:13:29.:13:39.

can't declare what something is done is not good for them. Increased

:13:40.:13:44.

funding for talking therapies that everybody has been pushing for is

:13:45.:13:48.

right, but no amount of therapy will stand the child of children mental

:13:49.:13:54.

health crisis if the root cause of this resilience is not addressed. I

:13:55.:13:58.

agree with many honourable members about the need for legislation. To

:13:59.:14:05.

clarify and consolidate the law around what offences are committed

:14:06.:14:08.

online, but I think more fundamentally we need to look more

:14:09.:14:13.

seriously at the resilience of children, the availability and time

:14:14.:14:17.

they spend online and decide for ourselves as parents, as a country

:14:18.:14:22.

whether we should set them about these of what they can do. I find

:14:23.:14:30.

the right honourable member for Basingstoke for bringing forward

:14:31.:14:33.

this debate through the backbench business committee today. We've had

:14:34.:14:38.

some very powerful and personal accounts today across the chamber

:14:39.:14:41.

and it goes right saying that online abuse is a very severe and expanding

:14:42.:14:48.

issue. It is one the Scottish National Party at the condoms, and

:14:49.:14:54.

my party supports any measures that may ensure that to party condemns.

:14:55.:15:07.

The consensus is a port and to address and tackle it. The scale of

:15:08.:15:12.

online abuse is truly shocking. There is much evidence to suggest it

:15:13.:15:18.

has become incredibly widespread. The chief executive of the College

:15:19.:15:21.

policing, Alex Marshall, has stated there is anecdotal evidence to

:15:22.:15:26.

suggest complaints relating to social media now make at least half

:15:27.:15:31.

of all calls to police. There has been widespread coverage of online

:15:32.:15:36.

abuse, particulate in the tabloid press, although some may contend

:15:37.:15:41.

this is a potential to add to the problem than address it. Sometimes

:15:42.:15:46.

the headlines in tabloids can do track from the severity of the

:15:47.:15:51.

reality of online abuse. Think tank Demos have conducted research which

:15:52.:15:56.

suggests around 12,000 threatening tweets containing the word rape were

:15:57.:16:02.

sent from UK accounts in one year. This is just one example of the

:16:03.:16:07.

plethora of misogynistic and abusive tweets sent to women online. The

:16:08.:16:14.

recent controversy showed horrific abuse of women online in the video

:16:15.:16:19.

game industry. What was truly shocking was the mentality and

:16:20.:16:22.

coordinated campaigns of abuse targeting individuals. It garnered

:16:23.:16:30.

much media attention stateside and measures to tackle online harassment

:16:31.:16:34.

are being taken more seriously by Congress as a result. This abuse is

:16:35.:16:39.

often vicious and nasty. Whilst most of us will have the strength of

:16:40.:16:43.

character to deal with it, it doesn't make it any more acceptable.

:16:44.:16:48.

We also have a duty of care to our young people, many of whom will not

:16:49.:16:52.

be well placed to deal with this abuse and cyber bullying. I commend

:16:53.:16:58.

the Department education's efforts in this area, in particular the

:16:59.:17:04.

advice they issue did the macro to deal with cyber bullying. The lack

:17:05.:17:14.

of organisations have helped as a bindable resource, and the online

:17:15.:17:23.

advice. I would like to dig the opportunity to commenced the

:17:24.:17:29.

campaign in Scotland, which has garnered the support of all of the

:17:30.:17:34.

main political parties and high profile figures across Scotland.

:17:35.:17:39.

Equality training is an important measure in our schools. Teachers

:17:40.:17:45.

need to be trained on LGBT issues and that includes recognising the

:17:46.:17:49.

signs of bullying and cyber bullying so they may act to put a stop to

:17:50.:17:53.

individual cases. The repercussions of cyber bullying are serious. Young

:17:54.:18:01.

and impressionable people can suffer very serious losses in confidence.

:18:02.:18:06.

More seriously, it can lead to depression, self harm and

:18:07.:18:11.

tragically, as we said earlier, has led to young people taken their

:18:12.:18:17.

lives. I welcome any effort whatsoever that would strengthen

:18:18.:18:21.

legislation in this place, or in the devolved institutions to help tackle

:18:22.:18:25.

this abuse. I would also like to reiterate today to anyone listening

:18:26.:18:31.

into this debate who is a victim of online abuse or bullying, you are

:18:32.:18:35.

not alone, speak to someone you trust and do not hesitate to contact

:18:36.:18:40.

the police to report it. We have a duty here to work together, to

:18:41.:18:45.

tackle cyber abuse and bullying proactively, and is hyper for

:18:46.:18:51.

individuals, we have experienced some form ourselves and could no

:18:52.:18:57.

doubt empathise with all victims of this kind of abuse. We are their

:18:58.:19:01.

voices and we much use them to effect real change -- we must use

:19:02.:19:10.

them. Can I begin by thanking the honourable members for Basingstoke

:19:11.:19:19.

and South Pembrokeshire? Can I start by saying how much I value social

:19:20.:19:27.

media? It allows me to engage with constituents, promoting the work I

:19:28.:19:31.

do. Social media mix it easier for them to contact me and for me to

:19:32.:19:35.

hear from them about the issues important to them. The general

:19:36.:19:40.

public value their use of social media, it has become a staple part

:19:41.:19:45.

of their daily lives. My wife would say party stapled. Facebook and

:19:46.:19:50.

Twitter allow people to keep in touch with one another, regardless

:19:51.:19:58.

of where they are in the world. In the UK, Facebook has 32 million

:19:59.:20:03.

users and Twitter has 60 million. The vast majority of people who use

:20:04.:20:09.

it do it in a respectable and proper manner. They engage in a friendly

:20:10.:20:15.

manner, and the overwhelming majority who talk to me online, even

:20:16.:20:21.

those who disagree, do so with respect or serving close to it.

:20:22.:20:25.

However, like a lot of things, there are a few who is close to it. There

:20:26.:20:32.

is a small minority who engage in abusive behaviour.

:20:33.:20:37.

Mr Deputy Speaker, like every other party, we condemn abusive measures.

:20:38.:20:47.

The First Minister has addressed this issue and is one of the best

:20:48.:20:53.

users of Twitter to engage with people. She has said robust

:20:54.:20:57.

political debate forms an important part of democracy, but it must take

:20:58.:21:03.

place in a polite manner. This is a message we can all agree on. I don't

:21:04.:21:07.

accept that you public servants are fair game, and such abuse is part

:21:08.:21:11.

and parcel of being a politician. Any abuse, no matter who is on the

:21:12.:21:16.

receiving end, it should be condemned. Like many, I have had

:21:17.:21:24.

some abuse, but the cowards that go online are usually men and reserve

:21:25.:21:28.

some of the worst abuse for the nonmembers. These are not real men,

:21:29.:21:34.

they are small and pathetic, and their actions can have serious and

:21:35.:21:38.

tragic repercussions. Of course, politicians are not the only target,

:21:39.:21:44.

it appears no one can escape from the poison. I spoke and mentioned a

:21:45.:21:52.

lot of carers were tweeting about it. This online campaign was

:21:53.:21:58.

informative and provided an insight into the issues carers face.

:21:59.:22:02.

However, it is shameful carers could not escape the abuse from the

:22:03.:22:06.

trolls. We need to get to the bottom of why so many people think it is OK

:22:07.:22:10.

to send abusive members cut messages. In 2014, 1002 people were

:22:11.:22:19.

convicted for online trolling. Of those convicted, only 155 were

:22:20.:22:25.

jailed for sending messages which was grossly offensive or was

:22:26.:22:30.

indecent. The truth of the matter is, there are four more people

:22:31.:22:35.

engaging in abusive activity than those convicted. It is unclear what

:22:36.:22:43.

the scale our problem is. 10,000 tweets were sent from UK accounts

:22:44.:22:51.

which attacked the ball. As a father of two young children, I'm concerned

:22:52.:22:56.

about the incident of children being bullied online. Cyber bullying has

:22:57.:23:03.

extended vicious behaviour beyond the classroom. There are no official

:23:04.:23:09.

statistics one children bullied, but from research, we know bullying is

:23:10.:23:12.

an issue which affects all children in some way. One of the loggers

:23:13.:23:19.

organisations for young people suggests 33% of children have been

:23:20.:23:23.

bullied on line. This abusive behaviour occurs on more than one

:23:24.:23:28.

occasion. Equal worrying is 90% of teenagers who witnessed it, say they

:23:29.:23:36.

have ignored it. People of different minority groups are far more likely

:23:37.:23:42.

to get cyber bullying. We had to consider why people are on the

:23:43.:23:48.

receiving end. We would not accept a witness abuse in person in the

:23:49.:23:53.

street or the classroom. As such, we must send a message that cyber

:23:54.:23:56.

bullying in any form cannot be tolerated and should be reported. As

:23:57.:24:05.

I touched on earlier on, the eyes of Internet has made it easier for

:24:06.:24:10.

women to be attacked. The revenge upon the helpline has received 4000

:24:11.:24:15.

calls from people receiving sexual abuse. Reported cases have risen

:24:16.:24:22.

remarkably, with victims ranging from 11 to pensioners. Two thirds of

:24:23.:24:29.

the incident involving women, were suspects former partners. There were

:24:30.:24:32.

eight female complainant is every mail. Statistics sound all to

:24:33.:24:39.

similar to the incident of domestic violence. And this is a difficult

:24:40.:24:43.

problem to solve, but there is work being done to reduce cyber bullying.

:24:44.:24:52.

The SNP have funded Respect Me, and antibody and service which held

:24:53.:24:58.

young people in Scotland. -- anti-bullying. They have highlighted

:24:59.:25:06.

bullying is bullying whether it takes place on the street or online.

:25:07.:25:12.

In conclusion, we need to develop effective policies to tackle the

:25:13.:25:16.

problems online. One of the central messages we should send out from

:25:17.:25:21.

this is anyone who has been a victim of online abuse should not hesitate

:25:22.:25:24.

to report this to the police, and I would agree with the honourable

:25:25.:25:30.

member when she said companies like Facebook could and should do much

:25:31.:25:35.

more to investigate or block abusive posts. No one should have to go home

:25:36.:25:40.

from work or school and experience bullying online. As well as offering

:25:41.:25:46.

support, we have to take series action on the perpetrators of this

:25:47.:25:48.

poisonous and ultimately how the behaviour.

:25:49.:25:55.

My apologies for stepping out but I had a school visit. I would like to

:25:56.:26:03.

find the honourable members for Basingstoke and fissile

:26:04.:26:09.

Pembrokeshire for bringing this very important debate -- South

:26:10.:26:13.

Pembrokeshire. I would like to thank the contributions of those who are

:26:14.:26:17.

spoken before me that I have been here to listen to. Technology is a

:26:18.:26:24.

central part, it is a tool but sadly used maliciously, technology can be

:26:25.:26:27.

turned into a weapon which can and has had damaging consequences on its

:26:28.:26:34.

victims. Members in this House have been victims, and some have been

:26:35.:26:40.

sufficiently frightened by the abuse they have received online, such as

:26:41.:26:46.

they've been afraid to go home at the weekend. Most of victims don't

:26:47.:26:50.

have the benefit of the police and Parliament to support that we have

:26:51.:26:55.

here. And like all bullying, but these tend to target people who

:26:56.:27:01.

already feel runnable. Members have acknowledged the gaps and needs her

:27:02.:27:06.

actions, neither legislation, work with police and prosecutors and most

:27:07.:27:11.

importantly for awareness. And I want to focus my conjuration to

:27:12.:27:15.

online abuse and harassment in schools and the importance of

:27:16.:27:18.

effective consistent school management and curriculum policy to,

:27:19.:27:22.

lamented the effective legislation we also need.

:27:23.:27:28.

In an with one of the movers of the Motion that today, the member for

:27:29.:27:35.

Basingstoke, I am honoured to be a member of the women's Select

:27:36.:27:40.

Committee and we have been addressing the issue of sexual

:27:41.:27:44.

harassment and violence in schools. Our report is not quite ready, but I

:27:45.:27:49.

am sure my Chair will not mind if I give a flavour of all we have

:27:50.:27:54.

experienced. We were shocked to the extent of which sexual imagery,

:27:55.:27:57.

abusive sexual relationships and object of the nation of women has

:27:58.:28:03.

been normalised by young people. -- objective equation. We had two

:28:04.:28:10.

sessions, one with younger men and one with young women and they told

:28:11.:28:13.

us their experience of the use and misuse of technology in and around

:28:14.:28:19.

the school environment. My feeling is if we don't understand and are

:28:20.:28:25.

just that misogyny and homophobia and the racism and all other kinds

:28:26.:28:30.

of abuse, if we don't understand it and its technical use, we risk

:28:31.:28:34.

turning victims into criminals and do not give the fixing of the

:28:35.:28:38.

support they so badly need. I want to focus my remarks on the

:28:39.:28:43.

experience brought to me by a one of my constituency was a at a

:28:44.:28:46.

successful and thriving secondary school. It follows the revelations

:28:47.:28:50.

from a recent safeguarding investigation held there which

:28:51.:28:54.

introduced him to the shocking mobile and cyber world that

:28:55.:28:58.

virtually every in his school and he presumes other local schools and

:28:59.:29:02.

probably therefore nationally, that every child seems to be engaged with

:29:03.:29:09.

for unfeasibly large portions of the days and nights. What happened in a

:29:10.:29:13.

school started with the change of voters between two students who were

:29:14.:29:18.

in a consensual sexual relationship but it escalated and the images got

:29:19.:29:22.

out and there was blackmail and violence. The police got involved.

:29:23.:29:29.

Criminal charges were possible and so on. So what started consensually

:29:30.:29:37.

ended up being truly violent abuse. This could be prevented. It is this

:29:38.:29:43.

aspect I want to address. The situation raised some really

:29:44.:29:46.

important aspects of child online and mobile safety and the equalities

:29:47.:29:52.

agenda that can be ignored. What are the headteacher is seeking is a body

:29:53.:29:58.

of work with these key areas with cross party and organisational

:29:59.:30:03.

support that can help schools and parents in particular to safeguard

:30:04.:30:07.

children are much more effectively. It is right to focus on

:30:08.:30:10.

strengthening the law, but we need to look at a parallel solution

:30:11.:30:14.

alongside it if we are not above thousands of children at risk of

:30:15.:30:18.

criminal charges when education and child protection are more in order

:30:19.:30:22.

in those instances. Tackling offenders and strengthening the law

:30:23.:30:25.

while important are only a small part of what needs to be done and it

:30:26.:30:30.

is not on its own a real solution. Elements of the law may need to be

:30:31.:30:35.

carefully considered after a final analysis of the context of this

:30:36.:30:39.

online abuse, where it starts, before being applied to young

:30:40.:30:43.

people, if they're not to be needlessly and unfairly criminalise,

:30:44.:30:46.

such as in the situation I've described. We must focus too much

:30:47.:30:51.

reaction, but look at prevention. The law is not always the correct to

:30:52.:30:56.

will and must only be used in -- must not be used by people engaging

:30:57.:31:02.

in unwise activities, as many do, which relate to the expectation and

:31:03.:31:06.

culture Java mobile and cyber environment in which appropriate

:31:07.:31:08.

adults have virtually no presence and are too often -- where to often,

:31:09.:31:14.

we leave young people abandon to fend and for themselves. The there

:31:15.:31:30.

will be a vacuum -- there will never be a vacuum, but a street culture

:31:31.:31:34.

will follow that void. At last comic he fears and see if this is the case

:31:35.:31:39.

in the mobile and cyber world is our children spent so much of their and

:31:40.:31:45.

night inhabiting. We must take care we do not target and criminalising

:31:46.:31:49.

young people who are in fact, victims. This will require

:31:50.:31:53.

significant training and support for the police and others whose response

:31:54.:31:57.

to such crime appears already to be under confident and very variable.

:31:58.:32:04.

My constituents have described historical justice approaches in his

:32:05.:32:08.

school and this may be appropriate in cases were mitigating factors are

:32:09.:32:14.

considered. The vast majority of our young people are already mobile and

:32:15.:32:20.

online online fixings in the largely unsupervised cyber world. Whilst the

:32:21.:32:24.

Internet gets considerable attention, mobile activity and

:32:25.:32:29.

mobile -based abuse is more rife and more neglected by adults. Parents

:32:30.:32:34.

were teachers and other adults who are normally responsible for the

:32:35.:32:37.

routine safely off children are best placed to supervise and guide young

:32:38.:32:41.

people, yet they are largely absent on the potentially dangerous

:32:42.:32:44.

environments and too little is being done to address this vacuum, this

:32:45.:32:51.

omission. There is an overlooked -- over-focus on the Internet and

:32:52.:32:54.

applications like Facebook because they are what all the people like us

:32:55.:32:59.

use and we are familiar with. The mobile world and the dark web get

:33:00.:33:05.

less attention. Yet, these are part of the experience of most children,

:33:06.:33:08.

maybe the dark web to a lesser degree. But there are lots of apps,

:33:09.:33:16.

and there are others we have probably never heard of but unless

:33:17.:33:20.

we get our kids to tell us and that doesn't always happen. The mobile

:33:21.:33:24.

and online culture in which our children live and grow up and the

:33:25.:33:28.

ground is established in primary years for some and in early

:33:29.:33:32.

secondary for others, that is their normality. This normalisation, with

:33:33.:33:35.

no appropriate adult presence to challenge it is what these to the

:33:36.:33:39.

lack of reporting of sexual and other mobile online and cyber abuse.

:33:40.:33:43.

Young people don't want to go to court ordered on the perpetrators to

:33:44.:33:47.

be punished. That's an issue we have to deal with anyway. The added that

:33:48.:33:51.

abuse is not worth reporting is not necessarily an indictment of the

:33:52.:33:55.

committal justice system, but is may not be considered worth reporting

:33:56.:33:59.

when it is seen as normalised. Data from police forces and court

:34:00.:34:02.

proceedings is a subset of the true or possible datasets. The reality is

:34:03.:34:06.

the relative lack of adult presence in the mobile and cyber worlds of

:34:07.:34:10.

children, including the practitioners responsible for

:34:11.:34:12.

keeping children safe, means conclusions drawn on available

:34:13.:34:17.

quantitative data must be received cautiously. We need to publish a

:34:18.:34:22.

different online culture and skill up children and parents and adults.

:34:23.:34:30.

There needs to be consistent training for police, Children's

:34:31.:34:34.

Services, health and education staff on Child exploitation and how to

:34:35.:34:40.

support victims. In short, parents do not know how to be part of the

:34:41.:34:45.

mobile and cyber world and in schools, they have a responsibility

:34:46.:34:48.

in this debate and in the remedies. Some suggestions that, from the work

:34:49.:34:56.

that some schools have done, including having equalities and

:34:57.:34:59.

safeguard committees, updating behaviour policies with a strong

:35:00.:35:04.

safeguarding structure, training her parents, staff and students.

:35:05.:35:08.

Students should be engaged in this work and policy development and

:35:09.:35:11.

roll-out on an equal ratio with adults. Up-to-date security within

:35:12.:35:20.

the school, ensuring staff, students and parents are clear on the law and

:35:21.:35:24.

their rights, and assuring an encouraging a transparent culture so

:35:25.:35:27.

that's where children are welcome at parents and school staff

:35:28.:35:33.

interrogating their devices as a matter of course. That is a

:35:34.:35:36.

challenge for a parents, but we need to think about it, but in the

:35:37.:35:40.

context of overall policy. Telephone clear consistent procedures

:35:41.:35:47.

regarding social media and sexual exploitation and mobile and online

:35:48.:35:50.

incidents including the protection of stuff we investigate such

:35:51.:35:53.

incidents, but also taking into account privacy. Also working with

:35:54.:35:59.

relevant organisations such as the police. Also using pupil at

:36:00.:36:03.

challenge is to keep the school of today with developments in social

:36:04.:36:07.

media and portable apps and help inform safety curriculum

:36:08.:36:15.

developments. Referring to what she said about the difficulty with

:36:16.:36:19.

teenagers. Would she agree that we should perhaps look at a House at

:36:20.:36:23.

whether there ought to be a duty on parents to be aware of what their

:36:24.:36:28.

children are doing online, a legal duty, in the same way we have legal

:36:29.:36:32.

duty to make sure our children aren't exposed to other kinds of

:36:33.:36:36.

dangers? I think he raises an interesting point and as a parent of

:36:37.:36:42.

to young adults, I've always wondered why there are all sorts of

:36:43.:36:48.

people required to do all sorts of things in respect of children in

:36:49.:36:51.

their care, but there doesn't seem to be a legal duty you sign when you

:36:52.:36:55.

pop out a baby. Interesting one. I'm sure there is -- are people form

:36:56.:37:03.

legally qualified than me who can respond in detail to his relevant

:37:04.:37:12.

and question. Thank you and I have concluded my core points, but I will

:37:13.:37:21.

finish by saying what we need to address about online abuse is a

:37:22.:37:25.

whole raft and a mixture of issues that include enforcement and

:37:26.:37:30.

criminal charges, policing and also public and education policy and

:37:31.:37:33.

solutions in order to not criminalise victims. Thank you. I

:37:34.:37:45.

won't go on too long and I lose the quality of the debate I permit a

:37:46.:37:49.

short speech. I'm sure the other honourable members will appreciate

:37:50.:37:53.

that. In my maiden speech, I said I'd be an advocate in this place for

:37:54.:37:59.

the Internet and online sector of the British economy, because it

:38:00.:38:02.

creates lots of jobs. That doesn't mean I'm an apologist for that

:38:03.:38:06.

sector or will excuse other negative consequences that have occurred.

:38:07.:38:12.

There is an awesome responsibility of all state holders in the Internet

:38:13.:38:16.

economy and legislators and other players to make sure we create a

:38:17.:38:20.

safe environment for our children in particular. The Internet is created

:38:21.:38:23.

an environment in which adults behave like children and children

:38:24.:38:27.

are behaving like adults in a way that we've never really understood

:38:28.:38:30.

before. It's been commented on by many members about the great work

:38:31.:38:34.

being undertaken in the schools and the education of children about

:38:35.:38:37.

online bullying programmes. I've seen that in action in schools in my

:38:38.:38:42.

constituency and I applaud the great work of teachers in this place. It's

:38:43.:38:47.

also been mentioned that the prevalence for children these days

:38:48.:38:50.

to have mobile phones which often the parents find it difficult to

:38:51.:38:54.

block or unlock all be able to work out how they can make sure those

:38:55.:38:59.

phones are secure in a way they perhaps have the confidence of doom

:39:00.:39:03.

with computers. Is the case that the average Brit looks at their phone at

:39:04.:39:08.

100 times a day. More people would be willing to give up chocolate,

:39:09.:39:11.

showers or indeed sex rather than their mobile phones. I'll leave you

:39:12.:39:24.

with this anecdote. Today has been the first time in my entire time in

:39:25.:39:29.

the Parliament where I haven't looked at my mobile phone to see

:39:30.:39:33.

abuse on Twitter, Facebook or an e-mail. That is because 14 hours ago

:39:34.:39:39.

I lost my mobile phone. It's been one of the most relaxing ram

:39:40.:39:42.

productive days of my time in Parliament and I highly recommend

:39:43.:39:43.

it. Thank you for outline of the

:39:44.:40:04.

homophobic and racist abuse and horrors of child abuse we so often

:40:05.:40:11.

see on the Internet. The member for... Described how abuse can take

:40:12.:40:20.

place. Another member issued a stark warning that children were losing

:40:21.:40:24.

their ability to empathise, which I think all of us found striking and

:40:25.:40:29.

interesting. I was particularly happy to hear her description of her

:40:30.:40:35.

own doorstep visits to trawls and for a moment, I almost all sorry for

:40:36.:40:42.

the pathetic creatures imagining the turning of a remonstrating with

:40:43.:40:47.

them. -- trolls. There's been a whole variety of speeches from

:40:48.:40:51.

members describing their personal experiences. I was struck by one

:40:52.:40:57.

member who described a fixed in's terrifying online experience, but

:40:58.:41:02.

particularly moving was another member who talked of her own

:41:03.:41:06.

experiences being at the receiving end of abuse from online cowards.

:41:07.:41:15.

Today, we are all connected. We use the Internet to conduct business and

:41:16.:41:17.

entertainment and connect with our friends through social media. All

:41:18.:41:21.

mobile phones in our pockets ensure that we are available any time,

:41:22.:41:26.

anywhere and we can instantly share photos and videos with family,

:41:27.:41:30.

friends and complete strangers. For the vast majority of people, this

:41:31.:41:37.

collectivity has enhanced our lives. However, as a historian wrote,

:41:38.:41:45.

technology is neither good, nor is it bad. Nor is it neutral. As we

:41:46.:41:51.

have heard, online abuse is one of the negative consequences resulting

:41:52.:41:52.

from advances in online technology. Social media can be a platform for

:41:53.:42:03.

sharing content intended to him and it's on to as large an audience as

:42:04.:42:10.

possible. While an iPhone can keep in touch with friends, it can be an

:42:11.:42:16.

instrument in which an individual is harassed and intimidated. Whilst

:42:17.:42:20.

Twitter can provide an opportunity for banter, as members of this House

:42:21.:42:24.

no, it can be used by cowardly bullies hiding behind anonymity to

:42:25.:42:31.

send abuse. As this debate has shown, all political parties have

:42:32.:42:36.

sent out strong and clear messages that this type of behaviour must be

:42:37.:42:40.

strenuously tackled and we must consider every possible method of

:42:41.:42:46.

dealing with it, including strengthening existing legislation.

:42:47.:42:50.

Mr Deputy Speaker, children and young people are the first to

:42:51.:42:54.

embrace and adapt to changes in technology. This also means that

:42:55.:42:59.

they are more likely to be the victims of online abuse. Much of

:43:00.:43:03.

this abuse can come from their own peers. The abuse has been

:43:04.:43:08.

exacerbated by the use of social media, and the widespread

:43:09.:43:10.

availability of smartphones with cameras. In late 2004, happy

:43:11.:43:18.

slapping began as a youth craze throughout the UK, and maybe you

:43:19.:43:22.

have forgotten, it was covered wildly in the tabloids. It involves

:43:23.:43:29.

filming acts of violence, such as slapping, then circulating the

:43:30.:43:36.

videos I Bluetooth. This escalated to more serious assaults, two sexual

:43:37.:43:41.

assaults and in some instances to manslaughter. Social media sites

:43:42.:43:45.

such as Facebook and Twitter have provided further platforms for car

:43:46.:43:49.

words. The intention is to humiliate and intimidate them, to make them

:43:50.:43:54.

feel worthless and share their misery with the world, increasing

:43:55.:43:58.

the feeling the whole world is against them. Rightly these types of

:43:59.:44:03.

videos are condemned, removed sometimes bite site administrators

:44:04.:44:08.

and sometimes, but not often not, investigated by the police. Other

:44:09.:44:13.

types of abuse are more subtle and difficult to act against. An

:44:14.:44:18.

embarrassing pictures or videos, altered photos or videos taken

:44:19.:44:23.

without permission can be widely shared. Behaviour can manifest

:44:24.:44:31.

itself easier online, victims can be ridiculed and singled out, rumours

:44:32.:44:37.

can be spread quickly and widely and people can be excluded. The ability

:44:38.:44:42.

to go online does not create a bullying, but away from the

:44:43.:44:47.

classroom and playground, it helps it to go unnoticed. Those who are

:44:48.:44:50.

most targeted by conventional bullying are also targeted online

:44:51.:44:57.

abuse. In 2016, the UK say the Internet centre published a study

:44:58.:45:03.

which found that of those 13 to 18-year-olds serve eight, had been

:45:04.:45:06.

targeted because of their gender, their sexuality, their race,

:45:07.:45:12.

religion, disability or the fact that they were transgender. The

:45:13.:45:19.

honourable gentleman is making a powerful contribution. One of the

:45:20.:45:23.

critical aspects, one of the key aspects of this abuse he is

:45:24.:45:29.

illustrating is the ability of the people on the Internet to be

:45:30.:45:33.

anonymous. Does he think it is time for the House to come to a view

:45:34.:45:38.

about Internet anonymity and Wevill we should allow it to persist in

:45:39.:45:47.

this country? At it is an interesting issue. Do we have an

:45:48.:45:52.

entitlement to anonymity? Perhaps we should preserve it. I would think

:45:53.:45:57.

about it, I'm not sure. I was interested in my country should not

:45:58.:46:03.

one of the members on the side made, suggesting perhaps what Facebook and

:46:04.:46:06.

tradition be doing is using technology to identify certain trawl

:46:07.:46:15.

words, for example, and for that to result automatically in the

:46:16.:46:18.

suspension of the accounts concerned. These amongst other

:46:19.:46:22.

issues, perhaps a minister will go away and look at and perhaps address

:46:23.:46:31.

in his speech later on. One in 25 of young people who have spoken about

:46:32.:46:36.

this in a variety of different surveys said they were singled out

:46:37.:46:43.

for abuse all or most of the time. That is a horrendous thing for young

:46:44.:46:46.

people do have to deal with. And teenagers with disabilities and

:46:47.:46:53.

those from African, Middle Eastern and other minority groups were much

:46:54.:46:56.

more likely to encounter cyber bullying. To target this north of

:46:57.:47:01.

the border, the Scottish Government has funded Respect Me, which acts a

:47:02.:47:08.

source of information that young people. They've made available

:47:09.:47:12.

publications to raise awareness of the issue of cyber bullying, and the

:47:13.:47:19.

service works well with adults involved in the lives of children to

:47:20.:47:22.

give them practical skills and confidence to deal with children who

:47:23.:47:26.

are bullied and those who bully others. They are keen to stress that

:47:27.:47:31.

no matter where billing takes place, it needs to be addressed and

:47:32.:47:35.

challenged. This is a message worth repeating. Anyone suffering from

:47:36.:47:40.

bullying, whether online or not, must report it and stand up to

:47:41.:47:45.

bullying. Online, children and young people are also in further danger

:47:46.:47:51.

from sexual abuse. A recent study by Unicef published introducing team

:47:52.:47:56.

suggested eight out of 1018 -year-old worldwide believe they or

:47:57.:47:59.

their families, friends are in danger of being sexually abused as a

:48:00.:48:04.

result of online activity. The ability that people have online to

:48:05.:48:09.

remain anonymous or take on another identity is eight contributed

:48:10.:48:13.

factor. It leads to an increased likelihood of receiving unwanted

:48:14.:48:16.

sexual comments, unsolicited material or pressure to participate

:48:17.:48:23.

in sexual activity. This is also a problem, as we've heard today,

:48:24.:48:28.

experience by adult women with applications such as Napster and

:48:29.:48:33.

tinder to providing an easy way for men to harass them -- Insta ground.

:48:34.:48:38.

Revenge has the intention of causing harm.

:48:39.:48:50.

The helpline has received almost 4000 calls in the last year alone,

:48:51.:48:55.

with cases reported from children as young as 11 years old. Furthermore,

:48:56.:49:01.

tends to stigmatise women are common. The thing There were

:49:02.:49:13.

thousands of troops attacking individuals as a shut or horse.

:49:14.:49:18.

Women in for the Clyde are prime targets for abuse. In Scotland, the

:49:19.:49:27.

three biggest parties led by women, one gay, and they all have to deal

:49:28.:49:32.

with sexual tweets. The Scottish Conservative Party leader Ruth

:49:33.:49:37.

Davidson has suffered horrendous homophobic abuse and has handled it

:49:38.:49:43.

with humour, honesty and courage. I am grateful again. One of the

:49:44.:49:49.

relations coming out of the awful murder of Jo Cox was the amount of

:49:50.:49:53.

abuse directed at members of Parliament, but the milk members --

:49:54.:50:02.

but female members. Does he think it would be appropriate for the

:50:03.:50:06.

Parliamentary authorities to publish an annual report on the levels and

:50:07.:50:10.

content of the types of abuse people are receiving? Most right-thinking

:50:11.:50:15.

members don't know, and it comes as is a price to learn a member has

:50:16.:50:22.

received this material. I think that is an excellent idea, and I think

:50:23.:50:26.

one of the great things about this debate is the fact people are being

:50:27.:50:29.

able to share their experiences and I suspect many members are quite

:50:30.:50:35.

surprised to discover, especially perhaps some of the men are quite

:50:36.:50:38.

surprised to discover just exactly how wait to read this is and so I

:50:39.:50:44.

think it would be an excellent thing for the House today -- widespread.

:50:45.:50:49.

The online world has enhanced our democracy by a long people to

:50:50.:50:52.

interact with politicians in a way they could not before. Robust

:50:53.:50:55.

political debate is part of our public life and we must cherish it,

:50:56.:50:59.

even when it takes place in terms or in language we might not personally

:51:00.:51:06.

use. What cannot be tolerated is debasing critical debate with

:51:07.:51:08.

threats of violence, insults and abuse based on misogyny, homophobia

:51:09.:51:16.

and racism. Opposition to online abuse is something which unites all

:51:17.:51:21.

of our political parties. It is not just politicians that suffer such

:51:22.:51:27.

online abuse when the famous. High profile TV personalities,

:51:28.:51:30.

journalists, academics and actors are all subject to abuse whether it

:51:31.:51:35.

is petty and crude or freshening ambitions. Online, many people seem

:51:36.:51:39.

to lose a sense of themselves and who they are, and would say things

:51:40.:51:44.

they would never dream of saying in person. I make a point quite often

:51:45.:51:50.

of writing to people and saying, can you imagine coming up to me and

:51:51.:51:55.

saying that to me in real life? And of course you wouldn't, so why on

:51:56.:51:59.

earth do you feel free to say it simply because it is online?

:52:00.:52:04.

However, hiding behind a pseudonym and Khartoum profile picture does

:52:05.:52:10.

not make the abuse any less real -- cartoon. We have a duty of care and

:52:11.:52:15.

it is vital we send out a strong message that online abuse is wrong

:52:16.:52:20.

always, and one clear message, I think, in conclusion is that

:52:21.:52:29.

Facebook and Twitter are hopelessly inadequate when it comes to the

:52:30.:52:34.

responses to online and sometimes a very violent bullying. It seems that

:52:35.:52:41.

the House across both sides and all parties once the Minister to tackle

:52:42.:52:47.

Facebook and Twitter on our behalf and much more importantly on behalf

:52:48.:52:52.

of all of our constituents, another forward to hearing what he has to

:52:53.:52:54.

say on the matter. I would like to thank the backbench

:52:55.:53:04.

business committee for granting what is a really important debates and to

:53:05.:53:09.

congratulate the honourable members for Basingstoke and the

:53:10.:53:20.

contributions in this debate have been characterised by reasonable,

:53:21.:53:29.

well-informed arguments, which I think reflects a consensus around

:53:30.:53:37.

the House. And also a desire for a constructive improvements and a

:53:38.:53:44.

situation that many of our own constituents and ourselves as

:53:45.:53:48.

members of Parliament face. I may have mentioned this in the past, but

:53:49.:53:53.

before entering this House, I spent many years as an engineer, building

:53:54.:53:58.

out the networks which eventually formed the Internet. I did that

:53:59.:54:06.

because I see technology as enabling, as the Member for

:54:07.:54:10.

Sheffield Brightside also emphasised, technology is building

:54:11.:54:16.

bridges in connecting people, rather than bullying and snooping on

:54:17.:54:21.

people. I lot of time in this House and outside are talking about the

:54:22.:54:26.

positive benefits that technology and particularly the Internet can

:54:27.:54:31.

bring if harnessed properly. For most of us, the Internet is a window

:54:32.:54:36.

on the world, a place to learn about what is happening, to keep in touch

:54:37.:54:40.

with friends or make new ones, to buy, to find a new job, to study, to

:54:41.:54:46.

play games. But the increasing presence of online abuse means all

:54:47.:54:53.

too often the Internet is a place where people do not feel safe. As my

:54:54.:55:00.

honourable friend, the Member for Brentwood said, technology is a tool

:55:01.:55:06.

that can be turned into a weapon. As we become ever more connected, there

:55:07.:55:11.

are fewer safe spaces for bullying and harassment. The Member for calm

:55:12.:55:20.

on reminded us of the horrifying statistics, one third of children

:55:21.:55:25.

have been a victim, one quarter have come across racist or sexist

:55:26.:55:30.

messages, and according to the safer Internet centre, four and five

:55:31.:55:37.

teenagers saw or heard online hates in 2015. That is 80% of our

:55:38.:55:46.

children. The Member for South Perthshire emphasised how online

:55:47.:55:51.

pornography is available that targets children as young as 11.

:55:52.:55:57.

Whilst the Member for North West Hampshire suggested we are

:55:58.:56:01.

sleepwalking into a mental health epidemic because of the impact of

:56:02.:56:07.

bullying and on line hate on our young people. Citizens in this

:56:08.:56:12.

country, they enjoyed the right to walk down their street without being

:56:13.:56:18.

attacked or harassed. When it happens, the police act. Online

:56:19.:56:23.

citizens should have the same rights. As the member said, we need

:56:24.:56:30.

to protect our digital citizens. The Member for mid-Worcestershire said,

:56:31.:56:36.

in his short but powerful contribution, we should focus on our

:56:37.:56:44.

duty to protect young people. Mr Deputy Speaker, that kind of phrase

:56:45.:56:48.

is digital citizens deserve digital rights. It is the government's

:56:49.:56:55.

primary responsibility to keep at it is unsafe, but it is failing that

:56:56.:57:02.

for citizens on line. This is not a technology issue, as the membership

:57:03.:57:07.

for Basingstoke emphasised, it is about standards, protocols, control,

:57:08.:57:16.

industry cooperation, self-regulation and necessary

:57:17.:57:19.

legislation. But we cannot just look at what we have now and try to patch

:57:20.:57:27.

the problem. As well as government, Internet companies also have a

:57:28.:57:31.

responsible as he did keep the Internet safe, and I welcome the

:57:32.:57:36.

fact that Internet, the big Internet firms, are beginning to take that

:57:37.:57:40.

responsibility seriously and particle it when it comes to

:57:41.:57:44.

children. In my view, and in the new of many on all sides, they have been

:57:45.:57:49.

too slow and still not doing enough. So it was great news that Twitter

:57:50.:57:54.

decided to add a button to report abuse, but why on earth did it take

:57:55.:57:58.

seven years for them to think of it? It is important we get the

:57:59.:58:09.

principles right rather than keep up with the latest technology and put

:58:10.:58:13.

sticking plasters over whatever the latest innovation is. We can't keep

:58:14.:58:16.

on having this battle with every new Internet giant all ubiquitous app.

:58:17.:58:28.

As a woman engineer and inept predominantly male industry and

:58:29.:58:32.

particularly when I was working for Ofcom, the communications regulator,

:58:33.:58:38.

I remember the outrage voiced by many in the technology sector when

:58:39.:58:43.

asked to simply consider taking responsibility for contents. Their

:58:44.:58:49.

main accusation was of undermining freedom of speech as the member for

:58:50.:58:55.

Hayward and Middleton highlighted but they also called parents

:58:56.:59:01.

irresponsible if their children are found pawn online and accused women

:59:02.:59:08.

in particular of being oversensitive when we objected to violent images

:59:09.:59:16.

of rape or misogynist threats. As we were reminded, it is women who are

:59:17.:59:21.

often victims of online hate and another member has a very robust

:59:22.:59:31.

approach to challenging online abuse, which we unfortunately cannot

:59:32.:59:40.

all emulate. So I remind the industry players particularly of

:59:41.:59:43.

that period when many champions of what I would call a wild West

:59:44.:59:51.

approach to online safety, not to undermine the work they are doing

:59:52.:59:55.

now, which I will, too, but to highlight that -- some of the lack

:59:56.:00:03.

of trust in the Internet we now see and the reluctance of many to go

:00:04.:00:08.

online can be traced to those early mistakes, when they did not put in

:00:09.:00:13.

place the right kind of support and protection for consumers. And I

:00:14.:00:19.

would also say we are now facing a new frontier in citizen data control

:00:20.:00:24.

and many in the industry, any of the same industry players, Facebook,

:00:25.:00:28.

Twitter, Google, are still on the back foot on this. We need to give

:00:29.:00:33.

citizens and consumers control of their data. And on the subject of

:00:34.:00:48.

online outrage, another member highlighted the game- gate scandal

:00:49.:00:54.

and my most recent period of on line vilification came when I have the

:00:55.:00:59.

audacity to suggest that misogyny in gamers could perhaps be signed

:01:00.:01:06.

poster, not necessarily regulated or eliminated, but simply signposted

:01:07.:01:11.

and that raised outrage by many in the industry who still, I think, do

:01:12.:01:16.

not recognise the importance of social responsibility when it comes

:01:17.:01:23.

to the Internet. So, there are many very bright people in this sector

:01:24.:01:27.

and if they can build algorithms to snoop on our e-mail or phone books

:01:28.:01:34.

or tell us who to be friends with all what washing machine to buy,

:01:35.:01:37.

then they should be able to crack down more effectively on abuse and

:01:38.:01:44.

harassment and put me in the control of my own data. The new platforms

:01:45.:01:51.

need to understand this. Perhaps it is not a major priority, because it

:01:52.:01:56.

doesn't come with a revenue stream attached. But safeguarding people

:01:57.:01:59.

should always be the number one priority. Not just because it is the

:02:00.:02:05.

right thing to do, but also because if we allow the internets to become

:02:06.:02:08.

a place where only those who shout the loudest or who use the most

:02:09.:02:15.

appalling abuse can have a voice, then people will turn away from

:02:16.:02:22.

using it. As a member said, they must be held to account. I'm

:02:23.:02:28.

particularly pleased then that the Motion makes reference to training

:02:29.:02:32.

and education for the police and the young people. I would like to

:02:33.:02:38.

welcome the recent standing up to bullying day on July the 5th,

:02:39.:02:45.

organised by the Diana Awards, which seeks to build digital resilience

:02:46.:02:48.

and the work done by many third sector organisations. This is not a

:02:49.:02:55.

problem that's going to take care of itself without significant and

:02:56.:02:57.

sustained action from industry and governments. And I would like to

:02:58.:03:05.

also welcomed the reclaim the Internet campaign, which many across

:03:06.:03:09.

the House are working on, including my honourable friends the member for

:03:10.:03:16.

Northampton and Castleford. I am sure she looks to the digital

:03:17.:03:20.

economy will fall some of the appropriate responses to online

:03:21.:03:28.

abuse. But I'm afraid we did not see them. I hope the minister will be

:03:29.:03:32.

delighted to learn that we on this side of the housing tend to make

:03:33.:03:36.

significant improvements to the digital online bill and the Digital

:03:37.:03:42.

economy Bill, a successful digital economy requires its citizens and

:03:43.:03:48.

consumers are protected and empowered and both governments and

:03:49.:03:51.

platforms need to use technology to support citizens instead of leaving

:03:52.:04:00.

it to the haters to attack them. I'm very grateful to get the chance to

:04:01.:04:08.

speak. I've no idea how long I have, but I'll keep going until you

:04:09.:04:15.

indicate otherwise. If he keeps it to around ten minutes, we will all

:04:16.:04:21.

be happy. Let me begin by thanking my right honourable friend for this

:04:22.:04:27.

important debate. I was lucky enough to work with her when she was

:04:28.:04:32.

Secretary of State and she took on two important issues, one was the

:04:33.:04:36.

issue of press regulation and the other was equal marriage, both of

:04:37.:04:40.

which she handled with aplomb. That I also have to say that she has

:04:41.:04:46.

shown the House how one transitions from that position to a new role and

:04:47.:04:51.

has taken a huge leading role in this House in terms of women and

:04:52.:04:54.

equalities issues and certainly has pushed forward the important agenda

:04:55.:05:02.

of online abuse. So it's no surprise at all to find a leading this debate

:05:03.:05:07.

and also setting out some very clear approaches and suggestions for the

:05:08.:05:11.

Government, which I think it is beholden on us to take seriously and

:05:12.:05:15.

think it is worth recalling that when these issues have been raised

:05:16.:05:19.

in the House, for example the honourable member first raised the

:05:20.:05:26.

issue about children's access to adult content online, they have

:05:27.:05:32.

resulted in action. Sometimes debates in this House can appear to

:05:33.:05:35.

be simply an exchange of views between Government and the members

:05:36.:05:40.

of the House, but actually come on this agenda, because it is so fast

:05:41.:05:45.

moving, I think that the House has a great deal of influence in the

:05:46.:05:49.

direction of Government policy. As I say, without wishing to pick out

:05:50.:05:55.

individual is too much, I would say my right honourable friend has

:05:56.:05:59.

certainly pushed this forward, not least the change in legislation on

:06:00.:06:06.

revenge pornography last year. I think it would be remiss of me to go

:06:07.:06:12.

through every single speech that has been made, I think we have something

:06:13.:06:17.

like 18 or 19 honourable member that I make contributions and all of

:06:18.:06:21.

those have been serious and worthwhile. Though I'd appreciate

:06:22.:06:31.

the odd moment of light-heartedness, not least from my honourable friend

:06:32.:06:38.

who pointed she responds to online abuse the picture of a kitten, and

:06:39.:06:42.

that appealed to me as I have a now well-known picture of a kitten

:06:43.:06:46.

sitting on my shoulder when I visited Battersea cats and dogs home

:06:47.:06:49.

and I will allow you that in future to respond to my online trolls. I

:06:50.:06:59.

was also amused when another complained that teenagers now live

:07:00.:07:02.

in the world surrounded by people who are perfect and wonderful to

:07:03.:07:05.

look at and I wondered what he thought that was a problem when all

:07:06.:07:10.

of us in this House exist in a world of the Palace of Westminster where

:07:11.:07:13.

people are charming and lovely and the world is absolutely perfect, as

:07:14.:07:17.

we found out particularly in the last week or so. It seems to me that

:07:18.:07:25.

what has emerged of four clear issues, but let me briefly pause to

:07:26.:07:30.

put into context that first of all, this Government is quite rightly

:07:31.:07:34.

committed to an open Internet. When I attend international forums, it is

:07:35.:07:39.

very important that the UK are committed to what we call the

:07:40.:07:42.

multi-stakeholder approach for Internet governance and that is

:07:43.:07:45.

civic society, business and Government working together to keep

:07:46.:07:50.

the Internet open and free, because we know that more authoritarian

:07:51.:07:54.

inclined regimes would like to regulate the Internet and restricts

:07:55.:07:57.

freedom of speech and clamp-down on innovation. However, it is perfectly

:07:58.:08:04.

true that we in this Government and country regard what is illegal or

:08:05.:08:10.

wrong off-line as illegal and wrong online. I think as some honourable

:08:11.:08:17.

members made the point earlier, some people seem to believe that the

:08:18.:08:23.

rules of behaviour and indeed the legal rules we all live by in the

:08:24.:08:26.

physical world somehow do not apply on the Internet. That is not the

:08:27.:08:34.

case. I think the UK has led the way in approaching this issue, partly

:08:35.:08:37.

from a perspective of self-regulation rather than

:08:38.:08:41.

legislation, that is because self-regulation works because it

:08:42.:08:44.

brings about partnerships and also because it helps us move forward

:08:45.:08:48.

more quickly. A good example is the creation of the Internet watch

:08:49.:08:54.

foundation, which was really the first charity focused on images of

:08:55.:08:58.

child sexual abuse and it's a model that's been copied around the world

:08:59.:09:02.

and they became incredibly important in driving forward the changes that

:09:03.:09:08.

were brought about recently in terms of working with search engines such

:09:09.:09:12.

as Google to make it much, much harder to search and discover ridges

:09:13.:09:18.

of child abuse online. We worked again with and to ensure funding

:09:19.:09:22.

from Internet service providers to increase their capacity and we've

:09:23.:09:26.

worked with the ten large providers to use technology to be able to

:09:27.:09:30.

match and traced images to make it easier to catch perpetrators.

:09:31.:09:35.

Similarly, by working with industry we were able to secure family

:09:36.:09:40.

friendly filters that default on option where people log on and have

:09:41.:09:46.

two actively disable the filters that prevent harmful content from

:09:47.:09:51.

reaching young people and also with the industry on a very important and

:09:52.:09:57.

generously funded campaign Internet Matters, they previously set of the

:09:58.:10:04.

Council for Internet child safety which brings together 200

:10:05.:10:06.

stakeholders to work on these issues. They have an important

:10:07.:10:14.

effect in terms of driving forward policy. And of course, we continue

:10:15.:10:20.

to make progress increasing police capability, the creation of the

:10:21.:10:26.

First Minister for Internet safety,, might colleague Baroness shields and

:10:27.:10:31.

in the Digital economy Bill, the introduction of legislation to

:10:32.:10:33.

ensure age verification for adult content. Let me say what emerged

:10:34.:10:42.

from this debate were four clear issues are trapped in the Government

:10:43.:10:46.

should take forward. First, while there was welcomed praise for the

:10:47.:10:53.

Essex and Durham Constabulary, there was recognition for the need to

:10:54.:11:02.

scale up the police. We do have the scent of combat child exploitation

:11:03.:11:08.

and we have various arrangements within the national police servers.

:11:09.:11:13.

But in cyber crime in general, which is often financial crime, but also,

:11:14.:11:17.

this kind of crime, it should be possible to create specialist units

:11:18.:11:22.

and with a national capability. I also think police should think very

:11:23.:11:26.

hard about the people of the recruits. There is no longer any

:11:27.:11:31.

need to recruit people through a conventional police training method,

:11:32.:11:35.

people who are capable of walking the beat for example or doing the

:11:36.:11:42.

traditional roles of policing. There is every opportunity to recruit with

:11:43.:11:46.

specialist skills and people in this area who may not have transferable

:11:47.:11:50.

skills in the rest of the service, but who could be recruited

:11:51.:11:51.

relatively quickly to do this work. Clarity from the myriad of different

:11:52.:12:06.

acts and statutes which come to bear from this, and I think the new

:12:07.:12:12.

government will want to make a can't make this a

:12:13.:12:19.

Consolidated. That is a clear call from this House which must be taken

:12:20.:12:25.

forward. There was the issue of anonymity, and I noted the Member

:12:26.:12:29.

for East Dunbartonshire debating whether it was an issue which should

:12:30.:12:36.

be considered. I wouldn't want to legislate to remove anonymity, that

:12:37.:12:39.

should be a matter for the individual platform, whether they

:12:40.:12:43.

allow anonymous users, just as I would not require the role mail to

:12:44.:12:47.

refuse to handle any letter that had been sent an honours -- Royal Mail.

:12:48.:12:55.

It leads me onto the role of platforms. It is interesting, in

:12:56.:12:59.

terms of the online world, we have these companies which in many

:13:00.:13:04.

respects are bigger and more influential than many nation states.

:13:05.:13:09.

Facebook has a population of 1.2 billion, Twitter has a population of

:13:10.:13:13.

300 million, and yet they are to a certain extent that the own devices

:13:14.:13:18.

to create their own rules and regulations, without the role of

:13:19.:13:24.

government or indeed Civic society as a whole being taken into account.

:13:25.:13:31.

Clearly platforms have to work with governments and with civic society

:13:32.:13:36.

to create rules, die would support my right honourable friend in her

:13:37.:13:41.

call in something I've been keen to make progress on, to see within the

:13:42.:13:51.

UK a clear code of competent cut conduct, and for the users, and

:13:52.:13:56.

we've had some horrific examples, but we know these examples because

:13:57.:14:00.

we see them day in, day out, either on the news or ourselves or our

:14:01.:14:04.

friends being attacked, the clarity in terms of the remedies available,

:14:05.:14:09.

rapid remedies available to people abused. I give way. I'm grateful,

:14:10.:14:15.

could he address the situation that was raised, whether there should be

:14:16.:14:21.

legislation placing specific duties on some of these large companies

:14:22.:14:25.

that he talked about, particulate with regard to child protection, and

:14:26.:14:35.

whether we would like to see consolidation of existing

:14:36.:14:38.

legislation into one bill which we could all look at, or we would see

:14:39.:14:41.

some of these measures brought forward individual economy Bill,

:14:42.:14:51.

will that happen? B say, -- B say, the views of my right honourable

:14:52.:15:01.

friend need to be taken seriously. I listen to what he says seriously.

:15:02.:15:07.

How can I put this? I want to get the digital economy Bill through, so

:15:08.:15:11.

I would be cautious about inviting my right honourable friend to load

:15:12.:15:17.

additional responsible at ease on it, particularly on issues which

:15:18.:15:21.

perhaps needs careful thought and planning. I was certainly welcome a

:15:22.:15:25.

discussion with him and indeed I would never rule in future

:15:26.:15:31.

appropriate regulation to push the responsibility on to social media

:15:32.:15:35.

platforms for some of the appalling abuse that we see day in, day out. I

:15:36.:15:40.

don't think it is enough of them, this applies to issues such as

:15:41.:15:45.

intellectual property and the online theft of music and film. It is not

:15:46.:15:51.

enough to see the platform simply as passive vehicles, they are extremely

:15:52.:15:54.

wealthy companies who rely on a large number of users in order to

:15:55.:15:59.

generate the advertising that creates the wealth of their

:16:00.:16:03.

shareholders. There needs to be a partnership, and I wouldn't rule out

:16:04.:16:08.

future regulation. Having said that, given a post Brexit situation, when

:16:09.:16:15.

we are keen to have inward investment, I wouldn't want to

:16:16.:16:21.

frighten anyone off. Clearly we need to work with these companies and

:16:22.:16:24.

clearly we need very clear guidelines and a very clear

:16:25.:16:30.

definition of what our online abuse is, but more importantly, a very

:16:31.:16:37.

quick reaction so all of us as constituency MPs don't have too

:16:38.:16:42.

certain surgeries with people coming in at the distress, sometimes with

:16:43.:16:46.

the lies and pieces because there is material online they soon become a

:16:47.:16:51.

get any adequate response from the platform that is housing that

:16:52.:16:53.

material. This has been an extremely helpful and useful debate, and I

:16:54.:16:58.

look forward to moving seamlessly to the next one, which I'm also

:16:59.:17:06.

responding to. I'd like to find members for supporting this debate

:17:07.:17:10.

with search superb contributions today, and the Minister who has sat

:17:11.:17:13.

in his place listening throughout to this debate and has demonstrated the

:17:14.:17:20.

strength of feeling that he's seen amongst members, across the House.

:17:21.:17:25.

The UK has led the way in tackling some of the early challenges online,

:17:26.:17:30.

working with European and US partners to put on a global approach

:17:31.:17:37.

to outlawing child abuse images. We've also pulled some of the first

:17:38.:17:41.

legislation to make it a crime to post revenge pornography, but we are

:17:42.:17:46.

now at real risk of falling behind, and it is clear today there is

:17:47.:17:52.

universal condemnation of online abuse. Why have we not in parliament

:17:53.:17:58.

seen this government present laws to update that situation? There's

:17:59.:18:03.

cross-party support for specific laws to tackle online abuse, to

:18:04.:18:07.

consider specific duties on the police, and schools, social network

:18:08.:18:11.

platforms, search engines, Internet providers, that show zero tolerance

:18:12.:18:17.

to online abuse. I have to wholeheartedly disagree with my very

:18:18.:18:24.

great friend, the Minister, when he talks about anonymity. We have to

:18:25.:18:28.

lift the veil of anonymity in this country, to make sure people are

:18:29.:18:32.

responsible for what they say. We do it in every other part of our lives,

:18:33.:18:37.

why not online? The Minister is fortunate to have the Digital

:18:38.:18:41.

economy Bill introduced, to make the sort of changes that have been

:18:42.:18:45.

called by members of all parties here today. We need to make sure

:18:46.:18:53.

those changes are made as part also of a coherent cross government

:18:54.:18:56.

strategy. He need to take members concerns back to his department and

:18:57.:19:02.

call for action now. The questionnaires, on the paper. Say

:19:03.:19:11.

aye. The ayes habit, the ayes have it. We come to the backbench debate

:19:12.:19:18.

for the UK support for creative industries and their conjuration to

:19:19.:19:19.

the economy. It is a pleasure to stand to move

:19:20.:19:29.

the motion as on the order paper. Along with the honourable members

:19:30.:19:33.

for Warwick and them in turn, Edinburgh and Dundee, we applied to

:19:34.:19:36.

the backbench business committee to this debate to take place, because

:19:37.:19:42.

it is necessary that this House recognises the vital role that the

:19:43.:19:46.

creative industries plate in our culture and economy. The issue has

:19:47.:19:50.

not been debated for some considerable time in this chamber,

:19:51.:19:54.

and I would like the bank all of those members from all sides of the

:19:55.:19:59.

House who supported the action for this debate. I would also like to

:20:00.:20:05.

put on record I am on the steering committee for Sunderland 2021, which

:20:06.:20:08.

is our bid to be the Capital of Culture in 2021, and although I am

:20:09.:20:13.

and pay for this, I do feel it should be noted as I will be

:20:14.:20:17.

referring to their work and Istomin's bid to become UK city of

:20:18.:20:26.

culture in speech. The UK is a world hub for the creative industries,

:20:27.:20:29.

they showcase the best of our country, they are outward looking,

:20:30.:20:35.

innovative and successful. The achievement of the creative

:20:36.:20:37.

industries can be seen throughout the length and breadth of our

:20:38.:20:41.

country, and I'm sure the honourable members from all sides of the House

:20:42.:20:45.

will be speaking about the wonderful creative elements of the

:20:46.:20:49.

constituencies they represent, just as I will discuss the bass crater

:20:50.:20:58.

video in Sunderland Central. She has started off in a positive fashion

:20:59.:21:02.

and like much appreciated. I used to be the chief executive of a film and

:21:03.:21:07.

video production company, and we had a real that 40% of our income must

:21:08.:21:13.

come from overseas. I wonder whether she has thought about the

:21:14.:21:16.

contribution that creative industries make to the exporter in

:21:17.:21:22.

this country. Absolutely. The creative industries are almost a

:21:23.:21:27.

hidden gem because they are so good at creating wealth and turnover,

:21:28.:21:33.

exports, imports, but they are hidden, they are not the glamorous

:21:34.:21:37.

things you see in manufacturing industries. I absolutely accept the

:21:38.:21:43.

point. The creative industries are comprised of many subsectors,

:21:44.:21:52.

advertising, architecture, arts, crafts, design, fashion, film,

:21:53.:21:57.

music, performing arts, publishing, television, research and develop

:21:58.:22:02.

and, software, games, radio, and goes on and on. That is part of why

:22:03.:22:07.

they are so hidden because they're so bust. I hope that today this

:22:08.:22:13.

House will pay tribute to the central role they all play in

:22:14.:22:17.

helping to drive innovation and growth. We are world leaders in

:22:18.:22:20.

these fields, and there are many success stories. The BBC, which from

:22:21.:22:30.

debates we've held recently is envied and renowned around the

:22:31.:22:34.

world, creating a staggering ?8 billion of economic value for our

:22:35.:22:39.

country. And for every ?1 spent on the BBC through the licence fee, it

:22:40.:22:44.

produces ?2 worth of value through employment, economic opportunities

:22:45.:22:49.

and expenditure. The fashion sector is the largest employer of the

:22:50.:22:54.

creative industries, supporting almost a tendered thousand jobs. And

:22:55.:22:58.

in 2014, the direct value of the UK fashion industry to our economy in

:22:59.:23:03.

this country was estimated to be ?26 billion. Many of our authors are

:23:04.:23:10.

facing economic uncertainty, but they are among the most talented the

:23:11.:23:15.

world, providing engaging scripts were TV, film and theatre. Producing

:23:16.:23:22.

literature, and submitting content for interactive products and

:23:23.:23:26.

services. Our authors play a key role in the UK being a nation of

:23:27.:23:31.

readers. Just this week the Department of culture, media and

:23:32.:23:35.

sport announced the UK's creative sector is booming. Jobs in the

:23:36.:23:39.

creative industries have increased three times faster than the UK

:23:40.:23:45.

average in other sectors. It is now estimated that they generate almost

:23:46.:23:49.

?10 million an hour for the UK economy. Totalling an incredible ?84

:23:50.:23:54.

billion a year, quite staggering figures. In 2015, there were 1.9

:23:55.:23:59.

million jobs in the creative industries, up 19.5% since 2011. And

:24:00.:24:08.

accounting for one in 11 of all jobs in the UK. And over 60% of the jobs

:24:09.:24:13.

in and around the creative sector are skilled to degree level or

:24:14.:24:19.

above. It is therefore highly concerning that the University of

:24:20.:24:23.

Sunderland, in my constituency, has reported that there has been a

:24:24.:24:27.

reduction in the number of applications that they have received

:24:28.:24:32.

from students wishing to study arts, culture and creative subjects. And

:24:33.:24:36.

last month, of course announce entries which each season subjects

:24:37.:24:42.

have fallen by 46,000 this year, compared with 2015. Before coming to

:24:43.:24:51.

this place, I worked in a crate of industries for almost 20 years. As a

:24:52.:24:55.

graduate in economics, can I gently point out it isn't only those who

:24:56.:25:00.

have studied pure art subjects that can contribute to the creative

:25:01.:25:04.

industries, which are one of the greatest exports this country has. I

:25:05.:25:11.

totally accept the point, and I think the figures I've quoted on the

:25:12.:25:17.

value to the economy show the importance to the economy and

:25:18.:25:22.

therefore we need people from other skills, including economists, to

:25:23.:25:27.

take part in it, but it is a worrying sign that creative

:25:28.:25:31.

applications have gone down. I would sincerely hope the government will

:25:32.:25:36.

act to promote creative subjects at GCSE, A-level and BTEC, and

:25:37.:25:39.

challenged the many universities that offer thriving programmes. Mr

:25:40.:25:46.

Speaker, I would like to now focus on the brilliant creativity and

:25:47.:25:50.

culture in Sunderland Central, the contingency I live in and represent.

:25:51.:25:54.

Sunderland has been the centre the culture and higher learning since

:25:55.:26:00.

the seventh century. Benedict built the church in 74A.D on the side that

:26:01.:26:08.

is occupied by the Sunderland University campus. Among the

:26:09.:26:11.

earliest students at the monastery was the renowned author and scholar,

:26:12.:26:16.

the Venerable Bede, Sunderland's proud history and glass making dates

:26:17.:26:22.

back to this period. When the first stained-glass ever made in England

:26:23.:26:26.

was created for Saint Peter's church by craftsmen that had come to

:26:27.:26:31.

Sunderland from France. The national glass centre, which has undergone a

:26:32.:26:36.

?2.5 million redesign, is located in my constituency and tells a story of

:26:37.:26:42.

our city's glass production heritage and attracts more than 200 visitors

:26:43.:26:47.

every year. As well as teaching and research in class and promised, the

:26:48.:26:52.

centre also continues to manufacture glass. As later shown earlier, in

:26:53.:26:57.

order for the creative industries to continue to thrive, we need to

:26:58.:27:01.

ensure that creative subjects are not sidelined in our schools and

:27:02.:27:05.

that our universities continue to aid student creative it develop men.

:27:06.:27:11.

I'm proud we have a fantastic institution for higher education,

:27:12.:27:18.

which specialises in courses that equip graduates with the skills that

:27:19.:27:23.

creative sector needs. Over the past ten years, University of has

:27:24.:27:27.

invested in cultural and creative education, including the Northern

:27:28.:27:33.

centre of photography, but media centre, Spark FM, and the media hub.

:27:34.:27:43.

The this year construction has begun on a new centre for enterprise and

:27:44.:27:49.

innovation at the University's city campus. This will become home to the

:27:50.:27:57.

North East's first lab to support businesses in Sunderland and the

:27:58.:28:00.

wider region and allowing companies the space they need whilst also

:28:01.:28:05.

providing them with access to a higher level of professional and

:28:06.:28:10.

academic expertise. No doubt the new centre will build on the

:28:11.:28:14.

University's strong track record in support for innovation in my city.

:28:15.:28:20.

It's also fair to say the creative industries are growing in the UK in

:28:21.:28:24.

large part due to the Digital economy. In Sunderland, we were once

:28:25.:28:30.

renowned for our coal mining and shipbuilding industries, and now in

:28:31.:28:32.

the north-east, Sunderland is leading the way with a thriving

:28:33.:28:39.

software sector, rising over 150 firms in the city with a vision of

:28:40.:28:44.

future expansion. A major success story has been Sunderland's software

:28:45.:28:48.

city, an ambitious partnership between the public and private

:28:49.:28:54.

sectors and the University. Its aim is to support innovation and growth

:28:55.:28:58.

in the north-east software industry and since it was established in

:28:59.:29:04.

2009, it has persisted over 300 software businesses and help to 150

:29:05.:29:09.

start ups. It is thought to attract investment and skilled workers to

:29:10.:29:15.

our region. Now, over 32,000 people are employed in the North East's IT

:29:16.:29:21.

sector and global tech companies have established permanent bases in

:29:22.:29:26.

Sunderland providing high skilled, quality jobs and promising career

:29:27.:29:31.

path is for young people. As previously said, a group of coders

:29:32.:29:40.

from culture, education, business, media and health and economic

:29:41.:29:47.

regeneration are needed to steer the strategic direction of the bid and

:29:48.:29:52.

help build a compelling vision for Sunderland over the next decade. Our

:29:53.:29:58.

bid to become city of culture in 2021 is showcasing the very best of

:29:59.:30:02.

Sunderland, particularly its creativity. It is a shining light on

:30:03.:30:08.

our vibrant, home-grown music scene. Sunderland -based bands such as Fear

:30:09.:30:17.

Of Music, and the future heads and Frankie and the heartstrings have

:30:18.:30:20.

generated almost ?1 million worth of worldwide record sales they also

:30:21.:30:25.

have the support of our famous sons and daughters such as Dave Stewart,

:30:26.:30:29.

previously of the Eurythmics and Lauren Laverne. Sunderland also has

:30:30.:30:36.

wonderful venues for musicians in which many talented artists have

:30:37.:30:42.

performed. Unlike pitcher but to the tireless work of a sustained live

:30:43.:30:45.

music venues in Sunderland and the Stadium of light, usually home to

:30:46.:30:50.

Sunderland football club. In the summer, it has hosted concerts from

:30:51.:30:54.

some of the biggest names in world music since 2009. Indeed, last week,

:30:55.:30:59.

beyond say kicks off the UK leg of her tour at the Stadium of light.

:31:00.:31:03.

The Stadium of light being built on the former large coalminer --

:31:04.:31:12.

Beyonce. I would also like to but she but to the Sunderland arts and

:31:13.:31:19.

cultural trust, better known... It has been a driving force for many

:31:20.:31:22.

things happening in arts and regeneration at the heart of the

:31:23.:31:28.

Sunderland 2021 bid. It is 2012, the trust has sought to implement

:31:29.:31:30.

ambitious plans that are now coming to fruition, with a vision for

:31:31.:31:37.

Sunderland's future as a vibrant, creating an exciting place where art

:31:38.:31:42.

music and culture flourish. The trust is as establishing a cultural

:31:43.:31:46.

quarter in the heart of our city by converting some of Sunderland's

:31:47.:31:50.

historic buildings into cultural hubs. He just has also put its

:31:51.:31:57.

weight behind the cultural Spring project working with the universe

:31:58.:32:01.

Dalla cultural House trust transform the way people in my constituency

:32:02.:32:06.

and that of my honourable friend 's the member for South Shields and

:32:07.:32:11.

Washington and Sunderland West view, experience and make arts. I am

:32:12.:32:17.

immensely proud of the work that is going on in Sunderland and I am

:32:18.:32:21.

delighted I've had the chance to showcase the wonderful role that

:32:22.:32:24.

creative industries play in our local culture and economy and the

:32:25.:32:30.

importance of this sector to the national economy. I also think this

:32:31.:32:33.

debate is going to give other members the opportunity to show the

:32:34.:32:38.

immense breadth and diversity we have in this sector, which is all

:32:39.:32:41.

too often not talked about in terms of the economic benefit that we can

:32:42.:32:52.

get from the industries. First of all, may I say how delighted I am to

:32:53.:32:59.

follow the honourable member for Sunderland in Central and listen to

:33:00.:33:05.

her remarks. Also so that the Backbench Business Committee for

:33:06.:33:08.

allowing us to secure this debate which we have called to highlight

:33:09.:33:11.

the significant contribution of the creative industries and that's

:33:12.:33:17.

contribution they make to the UK industry and stressed the importance

:33:18.:33:19.

of its continued support, whether through investment or general and

:33:20.:33:29.

wider awareness. The honourable member mentioned various lists in

:33:30.:33:33.

her speech. The creative industries cover a number of iconic and diverse

:33:34.:33:40.

national treasures, whether it is the Tate, Pinewood Studios, the

:33:41.:33:43.

British library and my favourite being and Dell rather than perhaps

:33:44.:33:50.

Beyonce and also the BBC. -- and Dell. The creative industries have

:33:51.:34:00.

contributed 84 by 1 billion to the UK economy in 2014, equivalent to

:34:01.:34:06.

9.6 million every hour with an annual growth of nearly 10%. This is

:34:07.:34:12.

an opportunity to celebrate our creative industries and celebrate

:34:13.:34:19.

how best the sector has its potential realised. It is clear the

:34:20.:34:23.

creative industries are flourishing and are playing an ever increasing

:34:24.:34:28.

role in our economy. With growth outstripping finance and the

:34:29.:34:35.

insurance sectors and employment of 55%, significantly higher than the

:34:36.:34:46.

2.1% average. -- 5.1%. With anticipation that half of

:34:47.:34:51.

occupations will become automated, highly skilled and creative

:34:52.:34:55.

workforce will become important where human ingenuity cannot be

:34:56.:35:03.

replaced by robots. There is at this point appropriate to congratulate

:35:04.:35:08.

the Minister for being the longest serving arts Minister in our

:35:09.:35:15.

nation's great history. Recent figures show the number of jobs in

:35:16.:35:21.

the creative industries increased by 3.2%. That is something in the

:35:22.:35:27.

region of 1.9 million jobs. The increases 2011 has been nearly 20%.

:35:28.:35:32.

These headline statistics are important, but in terms of skills,

:35:33.:35:35.

the flow of talent into the sector is vital and we should continue to

:35:36.:35:41.

encourage and inspire our young people to become more involved and

:35:42.:35:46.

aware of the sector. It is in this context I commend the Government for

:35:47.:35:50.

introducing coding into the curriculum in 2014. We must continue

:35:51.:35:58.

to allow and help our businesses to highly skilled individuals to do so

:35:59.:36:06.

from a strong, UK base of talent and it follows that such a high growth

:36:07.:36:09.

rate in the creative industries most not allow others to create a skills

:36:10.:36:17.

gap in the sector. Whether it is from the primary school level

:36:18.:36:20.

through to colleges and universities, I urge for a nurturing

:36:21.:36:24.

of creative talent to allow the UK to become a renowned internationally

:36:25.:36:28.

as a place to do business in the creative sphere. In my constituency,

:36:29.:36:35.

Warwickshire College sets a strong example offering a wide range of

:36:36.:36:39.

courses in related subject areas to ensure students are able to develop

:36:40.:36:44.

skills and this approach should be taken up more widely. The United

:36:45.:36:50.

Nations defines the UK's creative industry sector as being at the

:36:51.:36:54.

crossroads between arts, business and technology. We are at the

:36:55.:37:00.

forefront of the sector internationally and I would suggest

:37:01.:37:05.

our global ranking of first in terms of soft power is largely due to the

:37:06.:37:09.

rich cultural aspects of our country. The originator of the

:37:10.:37:16.

concept highlighted three pillars that contribute to a nation's soft

:37:17.:37:21.

power, one of which is our strength in terms of culture. Our creative

:37:22.:37:28.

industries underpinned this success. As co-chair of the video games all

:37:29.:37:33.

party group, it would be remiss of me not to mention the sector and its

:37:34.:37:38.

huge contribution to our economy. I am pleased to see my fellow chair,

:37:39.:37:43.

the member for Dundee West in his place and I look forward to hearing

:37:44.:37:49.

his remarks also. The industry employs 24,000 people across 12

:37:50.:37:56.

clusters in the UK, with a significant of games companies based

:37:57.:38:01.

in my constituency. This industry blends the best of British

:38:02.:38:05.

technology, creating games exported around the world. The global market

:38:06.:38:13.

expected to expand by a percent over the next few years, it is something

:38:14.:38:17.

we cannot ignore. An important point about our record is the need for

:38:18.:38:22.

video games to be seen in the context of contributing to our

:38:23.:38:26.

cultural make up and I believe it is right it is put on the same footing

:38:27.:38:33.

as full on television. In terms of investment, the weight is perceived,

:38:34.:38:36.

with regards to its cultural contribution to our society.

:38:37.:38:41.

Parliaments can and should do more to champion the gamers as a

:38:42.:38:47.

mainstream, creative tech industry right across the UK and funding

:38:48.:38:50.

should equitably recognise the sector as such. We are home to 40

:38:51.:38:59.

companies providing 1200 jobs and I'm beginning to feel unfortunate

:39:00.:39:08.

weathervanes silicon spark. The tax credits of video games have been a

:39:09.:39:11.

major boost to the business, both globally and nationally and I

:39:12.:39:14.

encourage the Government is, after the good work it is done in terms of

:39:15.:39:19.

tax credits, to make sure the industry is far more aware of the ad

:39:20.:39:25.

vantage this will give. We need to be sure greater awareness of games

:39:26.:39:29.

developers access to tax credits. 237 games were giving tax relief in

:39:30.:39:37.

2015 and this number must surely grow to help other companies trying

:39:38.:39:41.

to work hard in this industry. We must also continue to invest in the

:39:42.:39:45.

arts, following on from a long tradition of doing so, maintaining

:39:46.:39:51.

world-class museums and galleries. The UK now invest a smaller

:39:52.:39:57.

percentage of its GDP in arts and culture than the EU average and less

:39:58.:40:04.

than competitors such as France and Germany and I'm sure this is

:40:05.:40:07.

something we should be speaking about in the coming months. The arts

:40:08.:40:17.

foster a sphere in which ideas fostered and it benefits our economy

:40:18.:40:21.

enormously. In London theatres generated nearly 100 million in the

:40:22.:40:28.

ATV is in 2013 which is a record number. Furthermore, spending an

:40:29.:40:32.

Arts Council England represents 0.1% of total public spending in England

:40:33.:40:39.

and cultural contribution, 0.4% of UK gross value added. Public

:40:40.:40:44.

investment yields excellent written and hope the Minister will indicate

:40:45.:40:47.

the Government's intention to look more closely at increasing such

:40:48.:40:54.

investment. With more investments comes greater diversity and increase

:40:55.:40:58.

opportunities for ideas to become commercial success stories. The

:40:59.:41:03.

exponential growth of creative industry needs to be recognised by

:41:04.:41:09.

Whitehall. And also by the Business, Innovation and Skills, which notes

:41:10.:41:14.

the centre is part of an industrial growth area. This ties into my

:41:15.:41:20.

contribution to the most recent Queen's speech debate in which I

:41:21.:41:24.

called for an implementation of industrial strategy. As part of that

:41:25.:41:30.

cohesive and concise document, which I envisaged to be a rolling progress

:41:31.:41:36.

report from the Cabinet Office, the Government should outline its

:41:37.:41:41.

promotion and support across the creative and cultural sectors. The

:41:42.:41:47.

Government's export target of 1 trillion annually by 2020 is very

:41:48.:41:51.

welcome, but he must allow industries with such significant

:41:52.:41:51.

growth pattern to flourish. Industry leaders have put forward

:41:52.:42:02.

proposals that could add to our exports. I would like to turn to the

:42:03.:42:08.

Digital economy and note the bill introduced yesterday. The drive to

:42:09.:42:12.

improve our infrastructure will have very positive impact on our ability

:42:13.:42:17.

to innovate, create and improve productivity. Digital technology is

:42:18.:42:22.

embedded in much of what we do. I support the Government in providing

:42:23.:42:32.

our wealth creators providing what class products. The strategy seeks

:42:33.:42:36.

to take inspiration from the creative industries which have been

:42:37.:42:40.

at the forefront of innovation in many aspects of our life. Of course,

:42:41.:42:47.

confidence to invest is key not least in industries that require

:42:48.:42:51.

long-term decision-making. I urge creative industries to be a major

:42:52.:42:55.

consideration as we enter negotiations with the EU. In some I

:42:56.:43:01.

am pleased we have the opportunity today to raise the profile. These

:43:02.:43:06.

statistics speak for themselves in terms of the tremendous contribution

:43:07.:43:10.

the sector makes to our economy and a call on the Government to support

:43:11.:43:14.

and recognise this and allow the potential of the creative industries

:43:15.:43:19.

to be realised. The UK can and should be seen as a creative

:43:20.:43:27.

powerhouse. Can we stick to nine minutes, everybody get equal time.

:43:28.:43:36.

The Chancellor in his Autumn Statement said, Britain is not just

:43:37.:43:41.

brilliant at science, it is brilliant at culture, one of the

:43:42.:43:46.

best investments we can make as a nation is in our extraordinary arts

:43:47.:43:51.

museums, heritage, media and sport, but if we don't also invest in the

:43:52.:43:55.

education which prepares children to play roles in those industries, we

:43:56.:44:03.

will slide backwards. Many of the people here in this debate were able

:44:04.:44:08.

to participate in a debate in Westminster earlier this week about

:44:09.:44:15.

the impact of the E back in education, in theatre, art, drama,

:44:16.:44:22.

music and other expressive arts. Our concern during that debate was that

:44:23.:44:28.

there is a direct relationship between the introduction of a

:44:29.:44:35.

mandatory of a limited number of subjects which include none of those

:44:36.:44:38.

subjects and a reduction in the number of students taking GCSEs,

:44:39.:44:46.

A-levels and other examinations in the subject. I have to say the

:44:47.:44:51.

Minister for education said that was not true. He depended on figures

:44:52.:44:58.

which were at least a year old to sustain his argument that there had

:44:59.:45:02.

not been such a decline and he went on to say, my association is there

:45:03.:45:15.

will be no significant for our subjects as a consequence of the

:45:16.:45:18.

figure of 90%. I have seen evidence that there is already that fall

:45:19.:45:21.

occurring and what I would like to use today in this debate is to

:45:22.:45:26.

persuade the minister who is here in this debate to agree to meet with

:45:27.:45:34.

his colleagues in the Department for Education. If our figures are

:45:35.:45:38.

correct and if that continues to be a decline in the number of students

:45:39.:45:45.

taking up the subjects, in order to persuade his colleagues that that an

:45:46.:45:55.

unintended consequence of the proposal which the minister said is

:45:56.:46:00.

necessary to get us to the same levels as Iceland, on Torrie,

:46:01.:46:04.

countries which are nowhere near ours when it comes to the

:46:05.:46:08.

performance of their creative industries, if he would agree to

:46:09.:46:15.

meet the Minister in the Department for Education, to say to him if the

:46:16.:46:20.

decline continues in the numbers of students doing the subjects in

:46:21.:46:27.

exams, to ask him to include at least one of these expressive

:46:28.:46:33.

subjects students should be able to choose which, within the suite of

:46:34.:46:41.

mandatory GCSE subjects. Because if we do not do that, we will slide

:46:42.:46:46.

backwards and I think there is no doubt that our brilliant creative

:46:47.:46:56.

industries depend enormously on children having experience of drama,

:46:57.:47:04.

dance, art, music in school and they depend enormously on the creativity

:47:05.:47:12.

which is traditionally part of UK education. Frankly, a number of

:47:13.:47:16.

things which are now creative industries, which creative now do

:47:17.:47:20.

you were not invented while I was at school. Video games, beatbox,

:47:21.:47:28.

Twitter, these things simply did not exist. In fact, e-mail did not exist

:47:29.:47:36.

and it seems to me that we need to ensure that young people get the

:47:37.:47:44.

experience of the creativity that is possible and the disciplines and

:47:45.:47:49.

craft which is so much at the heart of many of our creative industries

:47:50.:47:55.

as an experience while they are in school. The honourable member

:47:56.:48:00.

earlier said that it is not necessarily professionally to study

:48:01.:48:04.

the subjects in order to be a creative. Absolutely true, but it is

:48:05.:48:10.

necessary to have experience of them and I am concerned about the number

:48:11.:48:17.

of children particularly and I'm specifically children in the least

:48:18.:48:20.

privileged communities who are losing contact with these

:48:21.:48:25.

experiences. There are wonderful opportunities. Earlier I was at the

:48:26.:48:30.

National Theatre watching the youth drama Festival, outstanding work

:48:31.:48:34.

done by young people in young theatre groups around Britain. But

:48:35.:48:40.

so many young people have never had an opportunity to participate in a

:48:41.:48:45.

live performance of music or all theatre, so many of our young people

:48:46.:48:51.

actually have not experienced all learnt from someone who is employed

:48:52.:48:57.

in a creative industry and I specifically would like the

:48:58.:49:01.

Minister, when he answers this debate, to make a commitment that he

:49:02.:49:07.

will discuss with the Department for Education is my prediction about

:49:08.:49:11.

what is happening to these expressive arts subjects in our

:49:12.:49:18.

schools is correct, that he will directly speak to the minister about

:49:19.:49:23.

ways to end that decline. And in addition, will he ensure that there

:49:24.:49:34.

is an opportunity in our schools for children to always have an

:49:35.:49:38.

experience of live theatre, to always, every child to be able to go

:49:39.:49:45.

and visit a museum, every child to actually hear directly from someone

:49:46.:49:50.

who is employed in a creative industry, who makes of their living

:49:51.:49:55.

through creating things, because the thing I know as a previous primary

:49:56.:49:58.

teacher is that children are creative. That is what play is, it

:49:59.:50:06.

is children creating things and the problem is often that creativity is

:50:07.:50:09.

driven out of them by the way that we teach them and what we have to do

:50:10.:50:16.

is instead of driving out their creativity, we have to give them the

:50:17.:50:21.

skills that means that there are in eight creativity can be developed

:50:22.:50:26.

and that in addition means not just reinvest in education but the

:50:27.:50:34.

Minister expects all of our aunts organisations -- arts organisations

:50:35.:50:38.

to take their responsibility to young people very seriously. I am

:50:39.:50:43.

not saying they don't, I have just cited an example of our premier art

:50:44.:50:49.

in situ since doing that. I went to the Barbican where children were

:50:50.:50:55.

part of the performance of Sir Peter Maxwell Davies's last opera and so

:50:56.:51:00.

they do have a lot of good things to be proud about, but every child

:51:01.:51:07.

should have an opportunity to engage with some of our great creative

:51:08.:51:13.

institutions, to learn from them so that we can in the future have

:51:14.:51:17.

creative industries which make the most of that talent, so that instead

:51:18.:51:25.

of the new Gradgrind education and I referred the Minister to Dickens

:51:26.:51:32.

hard times where system due knew everything there was to know about

:51:33.:51:38.

horses, was not able to define a horse because it was such an

:51:39.:51:44.

exciting animal. Whereas, pupil numbers six came up with the right

:51:45.:51:52.

answer and that is where we are heading in our education system,

:51:53.:52:02.

that we reward the businesses of our world. This Minister, I know would

:52:03.:52:07.

like to do that and this Minister could interact with the Department

:52:08.:52:12.

for Education to change their Gradgrind approach and to make sure

:52:13.:52:17.

that every child in Britain has a chance to learn how to best choose

:52:18.:52:26.

their innate creativity. Can I start by thanking the backbench business

:52:27.:52:32.

committee and the member for Sunderland Central for pushing

:52:33.:52:37.

forward this debate. Really crucial we have time in the House to discuss

:52:38.:52:41.

the creative industries and it is a very broad topic and rightly so

:52:42.:52:47.

given the immense variety of roles that there are within the creative

:52:48.:52:53.

industries. But as chairman of the all-party group on music, I would

:52:54.:52:56.

like to focus my brief remarks on that sector. I fear I might be

:52:57.:53:04.

spoiling the Minister who has had to listen to me twice in two days to

:53:05.:53:08.

talk about this subject but I am sure he can cope with that. I would

:53:09.:53:15.

like to highlight some statistics from the recently released report by

:53:16.:53:27.

the representatives body UK in music and their report demonstrates how

:53:28.:53:30.

vibrant and productive the music scene is in the UK today. They are

:53:31.:53:39.

measuring music shows the music industry is contributing to our

:53:40.:53:45.

economy here. 4.1 billion to the UK economy in 2014, 117,000 full-time

:53:46.:53:51.

jobs and a huge number of these jobs are creative, musicians, composers,

:53:52.:54:01.

songwriter 's and lyricists accounted for ?1.9 billion. Not only

:54:02.:54:06.

is music vital to our economy, it is also our face to the outside world,

:54:07.:54:11.

the measure in music report found music exports accounted for 2.1

:54:12.:54:19.

billion in annual revenue, over half of the industry's Gross value added.

:54:20.:54:26.

One in seven of all album sales across the globe were by British

:54:27.:54:29.

artists and five of the top ten selling albums in 2014 work by

:54:30.:54:35.

British artists and that is before artists like Adele delivered another

:54:36.:54:42.

blockbuster year in 2015. And the wish you were here report into music

:54:43.:54:47.

tourism reinforce this message. The direct and indirect spend from music

:54:48.:54:53.

tourism was some 3.7 billion in 2014. Many members will enjoy

:54:54.:55:00.

festivals around the country, I have already seen the Secretary of State

:55:01.:55:10.

at a festival. I am sure the Minister will do a fantastic job in

:55:11.:55:17.

replying. ?3.7 billion, a 7% increase on the previous year. 38%

:55:18.:55:23.

of our live music audience were tourists who came here seeking out

:55:24.:55:27.

their favourite British artists and they spend an average of ?852 in the

:55:28.:55:34.

UK, all of which sustains over 39,000 full-time jobs here in

:55:35.:55:41.

Britain. UK music has also begun undertaking a census of the live

:55:42.:55:47.

music scene in key UK cities so that policymakers, planners, local

:55:48.:55:51.

authorities can have access to the kind of data they need to assess the

:55:52.:55:56.

impact of decisions on the music industry in their areas. The first

:55:57.:56:02.

report, the Bristol census, and I note the honourable member for

:56:03.:56:07.

Bristol is in her place, showed that in that city alone, live music

:56:08.:56:14.

generated ?123 million of revenue in 2014. I look forward to seeing more

:56:15.:56:17.

reporting so we have the knowledge rather than just the desire to do

:56:18.:56:22.

right by our music scene and those who work in it.

:56:23.:56:28.

The Scottish affairs committee report on the creative industries in

:56:29.:56:33.

Scotland published in February, recommending that the Government get

:56:34.:56:41.

representative is of the music industry to show how these can be

:56:42.:56:46.

adapted to be of greater benefit for Scotland, including variable rates

:56:47.:56:48.

of tax relief for different parts of the UK, creating a tax relief for

:56:49.:56:56.

the music industry and piloting a tax if for those working in the

:56:57.:56:58.

creative sector. Will the honourable member join me in calling on the

:56:59.:57:03.

Government to disclose what measures have been taken in this area so far?

:57:04.:57:10.

A reasonable thing to ask. The minister is not in his place, but I

:57:11.:57:14.

shall remind him. Perhaps you can intervene on the Minister later. It

:57:15.:57:19.

is right that we do whatever we can across the UK to ensure that the

:57:20.:57:23.

creative industries are given all of the tools necessary to grow that

:57:24.:57:30.

part of our economy. When we speak of the contribution to the economy,

:57:31.:57:34.

we must remember that the economy is not some of the term. The economy

:57:35.:57:38.

means people's jobs, and they're able to to make a living. Yesterday,

:57:39.:57:42.

I held the West Mr Hall debate on the subject of remuneration for

:57:43.:57:46.

artists for online play and streaming. It is important to note

:57:47.:57:55.

that it is not just an issue for the big names, it is an issue for the

:57:56.:57:59.

song writers, producers and others who put work into a song, who rely

:58:00.:58:05.

on more than someone who has the profile. They rely on that revenue

:58:06.:58:14.

from the playing. My colleagues took part in a productive discussion

:58:15.:58:17.

about what remain similar to the new policy area, one where we will soon

:58:18.:58:22.

have significant more power as the UK exits the EU. Recently, I spoke

:58:23.:58:29.

to one songwriter who had seen the princely sum of less than ?6 of

:58:30.:58:36.

revenue from some 3.2 million plays of his song on you Tube. It is not

:58:37.:58:42.

hard to imagine the despair of someone who sees the light was macro

:58:43.:58:45.

work available for free on the Internet with little or no prospect

:58:46.:58:49.

of financial reward. I want to commend BBC Radio at this stage,

:58:50.:58:56.

which has done so much, not only to give new artists exposure, but to

:58:57.:59:01.

make sure they are paid for exposure. They take risks on new

:59:02.:59:09.

artist, helping them to drive record sales and build their profile. The

:59:10.:59:14.

BBC plays a vital role in the development and promotion of UK

:59:15.:59:18.

music, both culturally and economically. What they do for

:59:19.:59:20.

unsigned acts, with their Introducing initiative is amazingly

:59:21.:59:26.

successful. It is not just Radio 1, Radio 2 host a wide range of

:59:27.:59:31.

specialised programming, helping audiences discover new music and

:59:32.:59:34.

break new British artists in specialist genres. A bit more of

:59:35.:59:39.

this spirit of nurturing creative talent across the industry is a

:59:40.:59:46.

priority that would be welcome. The bpi reports that there was more

:59:47.:59:54.

revenue raised from the 2.1 million vinyl LP sales by British artists

:59:55.:59:59.

than the 27 billion music video streams on you Tube and similar

:00:00.:00:07.

platforms. This is not about shutting down technologies, it will

:00:08.:00:11.

be about striking the right balance and, to me, it is clear we have not

:00:12.:00:16.

done so. As the well-known manager, Brian message, said the digital era

:00:17.:00:24.

allowed those in the music business to pull together for the economic

:00:25.:00:29.

benefit of all stakeholders. To our detriment, this did not come to

:00:30.:00:33.

pass. I would welcome all contributions from colleagues to

:00:34.:00:36.

ongoing discussions on where the right balance will lie. To pick up

:00:37.:00:41.

more of the themes that we discussed yesterday morning in Westminster

:00:42.:00:47.

Hall. We also need support, particularly local authorities, to

:00:48.:00:49.

insure we the structure to produce great music here in the UK. There is

:00:50.:00:58.

an issue around business rates being levied on festivals around the

:00:59.:01:01.

country, sometimes retrospectively. This could have a huge detrimental

:01:02.:01:06.

impact on the festival industry, right across the country. The

:01:07.:01:10.

studios that can accommodate the orchestras are needed to film

:01:11.:01:15.

soundtracks, for example, are very rare. I believe we only have two

:01:16.:01:18.

here in London. I'm sure the Minister will correct me if I'm not

:01:19.:01:24.

accurate on that. This is minimum capacity, as this kind of work must

:01:25.:01:28.

be booked on short notice was up if we lose this ability, this recording

:01:29.:01:35.

will be taken elsewhere and it will not be available for British

:01:36.:01:38.

musicians. To make successful financially viable careers, to be

:01:39.:01:42.

ambassadors for Brit and bring tourists here, our artist need to be

:01:43.:01:49.

successful abroad, especially in the United States was not the need to

:01:50.:01:51.

break that market to be globally successful. The current visa system

:01:52.:01:58.

for UK message and is -- UKP stations wishing to perform their

:01:59.:02:05.

costs hundreds or thousands of pounds and requires expensive

:02:06.:02:12.

overnight visits with officials. The system for foreign musicians to come

:02:13.:02:16.

here entails only a small fraction of the cost, and I'm sure that

:02:17.:02:20.

ministers have heard from me on the subject, but I reiterate that

:02:21.:02:22.

support does not always mean government spending. In this area,

:02:23.:02:27.

it musicians can use the support of colleagues right across the House,

:02:28.:02:36.

but that -- but particularly those on the Government front bench, the

:02:37.:02:43.

few vital small steps in the first instance will involve convincing the

:02:44.:02:47.

US immigration service to establish a dedicated liaison team for the

:02:48.:02:54.

music industry. They could provide time appointments for visas, so

:02:55.:02:57.

artist can avoid expensive overnight stays in London or Belfast. They

:02:58.:03:08.

could clarify the position on these waivers to avoid inconsistent

:03:09.:03:13.

application. In conclusion, how creative industries are making huge

:03:14.:03:17.

contributor 's. I'm pleased with the work we have done on identifying

:03:18.:03:22.

where support is needed bus fire. I would warmly welcome the engagement

:03:23.:03:26.

of all colleagues and ministers to help put these into practice. So our

:03:27.:03:29.

music industry can continue to inspire, create, and help the

:03:30.:03:42.

imagination of the world. In any discussion of creative industries,

:03:43.:03:45.

it is essential to begin by writing ourselves of the deep complexity and

:03:46.:03:50.

real significance of what this covers. It covers, film making,

:03:51.:03:57.

computer games, fashion and polishing. The creative industries

:03:58.:04:03.

also involve countless mothers of individuals and groups who are

:04:04.:04:06.

active in fields such as art, music, dance, poetry and many other fields.

:04:07.:04:13.

There are those who support the creative industries through there

:04:14.:04:16.

could be as teachers, curators of galleries, event organisers other

:04:17.:04:20.

support roles. All of this adds up to the colourful, diverse and

:04:21.:04:22.

beautiful tapestry that make our lives so in which. I'm sure everyone

:04:23.:04:29.

in this House is ankle for the could be sure they make to our lives. --

:04:30.:04:37.

for the contribution they make to our lives.

:04:38.:04:42.

The creative industries is whether over ?9 million an hour to the UK

:04:43.:04:47.

economy. It is the fastest growing sector in the UK. It is not

:04:48.:04:53.

sufficient enough for us as holiday-makers to view the creative

:04:54.:04:55.

industries purely in economic times alone. The one thing is the health

:04:56.:05:07.

of the creative industry as importance to this out. -- to this

:05:08.:05:14.

House. Within the University of Dundee, the

:05:15.:05:20.

College of Art is one of the leading articles in the UK, first

:05:21.:05:25.

established in the 19th century. There is a thriving network of

:05:26.:05:29.

studios for artists, designers and architects. As part of the current

:05:30.:05:39.

?1 billion regeneration of the waterfront, Dundee, and all other

:05:40.:05:43.

cities in the UK, was chosen to build a new Victoria and Albert

:05:44.:05:47.

design Museum, which will be completed in two years' time. I

:05:48.:05:58.

invite everyone to come for a visit. Dundee is also well-known as the

:05:59.:06:00.

home of many iconic bestselling children's comics, such as the

:06:01.:06:06.

Beano, the Dandy, the Judy and the Jackie, which is now a West End

:06:07.:06:11.

musical! I recommend everyone see do their earliest opportunity. There is

:06:12.:06:18.

an iconic Trail of iconic sculptures of one iconic characters. In 2014,

:06:19.:06:33.

Dundee was awarded the UNESCO city of design award. I will give way. He

:06:34.:06:41.

has name checked an important number of characters and creations that

:06:42.:06:43.

have emanated from Dundee. I think he has forgotten the Broons. They

:06:44.:06:56.

would be most disgusted for me forgetting to mention the Broons. In

:06:57.:07:08.

addition to all of this, this creative tradition has found a new

:07:09.:07:12.

outlet. Dundee is now an internationally renowned centre for

:07:13.:07:15.

video game development, and the birthplace of some of the biggest

:07:16.:07:20.

names in game history. It offered the first degree in games design in

:07:21.:07:29.

1997. This move was subsequently copied by institutions around the

:07:30.:07:32.

world, and helped Edinburgh predation of Dundee as a centre of

:07:33.:07:35.

excellence for video games. Just to touch on a few examples. In the 90s,

:07:36.:07:45.

the game Fleming 's was created, which sold millions of copies. They

:07:46.:07:55.

also create is Grand Theft Auto, which is now the biggest selling

:07:56.:08:06.

game in the world. They also created Minecraft. The video games industry

:08:07.:08:11.

is vitally important. It has been echoed by Mike co-chair -- by my

:08:12.:08:25.

co-chair. 5000 full-time employees are

:08:26.:08:29.

involved in the mobile game industry. Six to 4% of all of the

:08:30.:08:39.

video games companies were established in the last five years.

:08:40.:08:46.

How do we support these activities? They are so important to the

:08:47.:08:50.

individual well-being and economic prosperity. Artists, designers can

:08:51.:09:02.

musicians, games programmes, are in need of access to funding, advice

:09:03.:09:03.

and financial support. There is a creative partnership,

:09:04.:09:21.

which involves agencies that work together to share intelligence and

:09:22.:09:24.

research on the creative industries, coordinating industries and industry

:09:25.:09:33.

support. In January of this year, Scottish affairs select committee,

:09:34.:09:42.

on which I serve, published an review of creative industries in

:09:43.:09:45.

Scotland. I would like to focus on three key issues that will identify

:09:46.:09:50.

-- that were identified in the report. The qualifying companies had

:09:51.:10:08.

tax incentives. They have been limited use in Scotland. This is

:10:09.:10:12.

partly due to the smaller scale of most creative enterprises in

:10:13.:10:15.

Scotland. Hardly because tax relief does not incentivise industries

:10:16.:10:34.

outside of hubs such as London. I would urge the Minister and his

:10:35.:10:38.

colleagues in the Treasury to treat this issue as a matter of the utmost

:10:39.:10:41.

priority and to give consideration to the possibility that the most

:10:42.:10:45.

effective means of resolving these issues will be to devolve

:10:46.:10:50.

responsibility of tax release for creative industries to the Scottish

:10:51.:10:56.

government. Furthermore, broadcasting in the forms of the

:10:57.:11:01.

BBC, is a fundamental driver for industries in Scotland, as well as a

:11:02.:11:04.

central pillar of our life. There is widespread dissatisfaction with the

:11:05.:11:10.

output of BBC Scotland. There is also in balance with licence fee

:11:11.:11:13.

income of over 320 million pounds generated in Scotland, but a BBC

:11:14.:11:18.

Scotland Budget of less than 200 million. The BBC has been slow to

:11:19.:11:22.

respond to these issues and has been less than transparent in its process

:11:23.:11:26.

of decision-making around them. In the last few days, on the future of

:11:27.:11:33.

public service enquiry, has been published. It recommends that the

:11:34.:11:38.

only effective solution to the mismatch between the aspirations of

:11:39.:11:41.

Scottish people and the respective output service broadcasting is to

:11:42.:11:46.

devolve an appropriate proportion of the overall BBC Budget to Scotland.

:11:47.:11:54.

It must be allowed to schedule progress as it sees fit. I would

:11:55.:11:59.

urge the Minister to cook 's press clear and unequivocal support for

:12:00.:12:04.

this proposal, which has the potential to allow Scotland to

:12:05.:12:07.

become a hub for high-quality television and film output and

:12:08.:12:09.

contribute to an expansion of implement in this field. I share the

:12:10.:12:15.

view that little in the BBC reflects the constitutional settlement with

:12:16.:12:16.

Scotland. Other than areas of intellectual

:12:17.:12:29.

property, the individuals and organisations were largely satisfied

:12:30.:12:34.

with opportunities and benefits that flow from you make the ship -- EU

:12:35.:12:41.

membership. All of this has changed due to the fear and uncertainty

:12:42.:12:48.

created by the EU referendum. This is a troubling situation. Many

:12:49.:12:52.

aspects of creative industries in Scotland are embedded in a cultural

:12:53.:12:57.

European tradition that relies on collaboration with colleagues and

:12:58.:13:02.

this situation requires that the creative industries should have a

:13:03.:13:07.

full representation with the EU and that the needs of creative

:13:08.:13:10.

industries in Scotland should be championed through the presence of

:13:11.:13:15.

members of the Scottish Government. I have talked about the issues and

:13:16.:13:19.

challenges facing the industries in Scotland but I would like to make

:13:20.:13:25.

one final point. Scotland is an outward looking, internationalist

:13:26.:13:30.

and progressive society. A mongrel Laois and -- nation and yet it is

:13:31.:13:35.

distinctive and different and demands to be heard. This is not a

:13:36.:13:49.

0-sum game. Successful broadcasting, film-making, computer games reach

:13:50.:13:56.

out to an international market and do not diminish the significance of

:13:57.:14:01.

London and Manchester. In this, we can all be winners. I congratulate

:14:02.:14:11.

the honourable member for Sunderland Central in initiating this debate

:14:12.:14:15.

and she has chosen an excellent time to be initiating the debate, because

:14:16.:14:20.

creative industries throughout the UK are doing extremely well and I

:14:21.:14:25.

was in Scotland just three weeks ago, going to add a bra and Balmoral

:14:26.:14:30.

but because my sat nav went wrong, I toured the whole of Scotland and it

:14:31.:14:36.

looked pretty good to me and I had a daughter perform at the Edinburgh

:14:37.:14:43.

Festival. Wonderful! They are creative industries in London doing

:14:44.:14:48.

extremely well, but before going onto the main part I wanted share

:14:49.:14:53.

with the House about Southend-on-Sea being an alternative city of

:14:54.:14:57.

culture, I wanted to remind the House that the UK is a global leader

:14:58.:15:02.

in Crete of industries. They promote everything that is great about this

:15:03.:15:08.

country and generate ?8.8 million and our, amazing. The UK's success

:15:09.:15:15.

is ranked number two on the 2016 soft power ranking and third by the

:15:16.:15:21.

2015 GS K Ripper nation brands index which records the positive

:15:22.:15:28.

perceptions consumers have worldwide of individual countries. How good it

:15:29.:15:35.

is to see a star of MP for in this chamber this afternoon. Members of

:15:36.:15:39.

Parliament really do have an interest in this subject. Southend

:15:40.:15:46.

is no exception to the UK's success in Crete if industries. In the

:15:47.:15:53.

upcoming Southend city of alternative culture will exemplify

:15:54.:16:01.

the music and arts. Southend has a consistent record for exhibiting new

:16:02.:16:03.

forward-thinking arts and cultural projects. Net part of the first

:16:04.:16:13.

digital art park in the world and I am delighted that the member visited

:16:14.:16:22.

the park. It was developed by a wonderful arts organisation and

:16:23.:16:24.

transformed into or derelict spaces into vibrant cultural community

:16:25.:16:35.

hubs. It presents a collection of artworks and stories for chalk wall

:16:36.:16:39.

part in Southend. All the works are experienced through a smart device,

:16:40.:16:44.

either iPad, iPhone or android. The collection has five artworks created

:16:45.:16:53.

by artists following an open course and created by Southend School

:16:54.:16:59.

pupils. In addition, the project includes an on-site digital school

:17:00.:17:03.

at metal art. It is equipped with both hardware and software enabling

:17:04.:17:09.

or Andy by artists and a range of digital creative learning within the

:17:10.:17:12.

curriculum. Other projects include the Thames Street, the aim is to

:17:13.:17:18.

celebrate the outstanding cultural contribution of the 40 miles stretch

:17:19.:17:23.

of the iconic Thames Estuary and aren't we lucky to be here in this

:17:24.:17:29.

wonderful place and enjoy all the beautiful River Thames can offer.

:17:30.:17:32.

Working with partners on both the north and south banks, the festival

:17:33.:17:39.

will occur by with the first taking place in September this year and

:17:40.:17:42.

will promote the planned new museum at the Thames Estuary on the banks

:17:43.:17:48.

of the history in Southend where we found a Saxon King buried beneath

:17:49.:17:57.

one of our parks. Southend's contribution to creative industry

:17:58.:18:01.

shows why the UK is an innovation driven economy. We are renowned for

:18:02.:18:07.

breaking convention in our creative industries yet we always do it with

:18:08.:18:11.

professionalism, star and swagger and there are plenty of talented

:18:12.:18:15.

groups in Southend to display these qualities. The Southend Festival,

:18:16.:18:25.

the male voice crier, the South Essex youth Orchestra, the Southend

:18:26.:18:31.

book and arts fair are just a snapshot of the flourishing creative

:18:32.:18:35.

industries we have in Southend and the imminent launch of the

:18:36.:18:39.

alternative city of culture, it is being launched in Southend this

:18:40.:18:43.

Sunday and it's been launched somewhere in the House of Commons

:18:44.:18:47.

next week and what a good thing it is now to have all these wonderful

:18:48.:18:52.

events in the Jubilee room, showing off the creative talents of all

:18:53.:18:58.

parts of the UK. Hull of course are the city of culture and they have a

:18:59.:19:05.

range of main events in line with the seasons. We are going to have

:19:06.:19:12.

one specific theme each month, so it will be very interesting to see how

:19:13.:19:17.

both parts of the country ran their events. We will have a theme every

:19:18.:19:23.

month, one month it will be music, the arts, next, fashion, media,

:19:24.:19:28.

culture, food, architecture, military events and other matters.

:19:29.:19:33.

These creative groups all played their part in how the wider world

:19:34.:19:38.

perceives the United Kingdom as a thriving cultural nation. I hope the

:19:39.:19:46.

House will unite in believing that creative industries should not be

:19:47.:19:51.

daunted. We have touched about the referendum but we have had the

:19:52.:19:56.

referendum as far as Scotland wasn't too happy but I want us to be

:19:57.:20:00.

positive about the outcome. The UK creative industries are still open

:20:01.:20:07.

for business and there are many financial incentives to invest in

:20:08.:20:11.

the UK's creative sector, including tax reliefs to allow productions

:20:12.:20:13.

access to a rebate. Long may Southend continue to be a

:20:14.:20:37.

location where great films, dramas and soap operas are shot and I would

:20:38.:20:41.

be happy to appear in any of them. Even in the post-Brexit world, we

:20:42.:20:47.

now find ourselves in Crete if industries that will continue to

:20:48.:20:51.

thrive and take advantage of the opportunities which are opening up

:20:52.:20:56.

to do business across the world. Those who are uncertain about the

:20:57.:21:00.

regulation of creative industries following our decision to leave the

:21:01.:21:05.

EU I think should be reassured and Alan Minister will do his best to

:21:06.:21:15.

reassured the House. I welcome my honourable friend for culture media

:21:16.:21:24.

and sports but the success of the UK's creative industries is built on

:21:25.:21:30.

the talent which exists in this country, and amazing heritage. The

:21:31.:21:34.

English language, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish and a tax system

:21:35.:21:40.

designed to support and encourage growth in the creative sector. Given

:21:41.:21:44.

that this country is gifted with being creative and has a rich

:21:45.:21:48.

cultural heritage, we can have confidence that there can and will

:21:49.:21:55.

be a bright future for the UK's creative industries. The Southend

:21:56.:22:02.

alternative city of culture 2017 should be a benchmark for showing

:22:03.:22:07.

why it is so important that this Government and any government to

:22:08.:22:11.

invest and provide the necessary intensive is for creative industries

:22:12.:22:15.

to thrive and prosper. -- incentives. Can I congratulate the

:22:16.:22:25.

honourable member for leading this debate. She has made me feel rather

:22:26.:22:31.

guilty in making such an excellent case for Sunderland's bid to be

:22:32.:22:35.

capital of culture, seeing as Bristol also wants to beat it, so I

:22:36.:22:41.

have to put down for an adjournment debate because today I want to focus

:22:42.:22:47.

on the impact leaving the EU could have on our creative industries and

:22:48.:22:51.

what the Minister will do to deliver on his promise to give the arts a

:22:52.:22:58.

voice. A survey found 96% of members voted to stay in the EU with 84%

:22:59.:23:04.

saying EU membership was important to the future. Before the vote, the

:23:05.:23:09.

prospect of leaving was variously described as a nightmare, artistic

:23:10.:23:14.

isolation, and a huge creative step backwards. A joint letter from 250

:23:15.:23:21.

actors, artists, musicians and writers praising EU funding was

:23:22.:23:27.

dismissed by the Brexit camp as the concern of luvvies. If the minister

:23:28.:23:33.

was in his place, I know he is not one to dismiss the luvvies so

:23:34.:23:38.

lightly. He would agree that it is important that issues such as access

:23:39.:23:43.

to markets, freedom of movement, intellectual property protection and

:23:44.:23:46.

EU funding for the creative sector are considered during the Brexit

:23:47.:23:51.

negotiations. I want to name check Laura Smith for an excellent article

:23:52.:23:56.

on pitchfork .com which has been the source of quite a few of the quotes

:23:57.:24:01.

I will mention. On access to EU markets, the value of services

:24:02.:24:06.

exported by the UK creative industries in 2014 was nearly 20

:24:07.:24:12.

billion, an increase of nearly 11%. The EU is a 56% our largest export

:24:13.:24:18.

market and currently we can trade tariff and barrier free across 28

:24:19.:24:25.

countries. We have unrestricted access to 560 million potential

:24:26.:24:30.

customers and before we entered the common market, there were tariffs.

:24:31.:24:34.

If we want to send products over to Europe and to give one example, the

:24:35.:24:41.

vinyl trade, the majority of vinyl we buy is made in plants in mainland

:24:42.:24:46.

Europe. The costs could escalate both at the point of manufacture and

:24:47.:24:52.

sale and the real concern this will have on small and independent

:24:53.:24:58.

businesses is that small margins make a huge effect on their

:24:59.:25:12.

survival. As my co-founder said, as a nation, switching our focus from

:25:13.:25:17.

trading with Europe to trading with Brazil, China and India does not

:25:18.:25:22.

work for the music industry because we are making small inroads there.

:25:23.:25:26.

They have such a different pop market and strong historic music

:25:27.:25:31.

identity of their own. Copyright and IP issues are incredibly important

:25:32.:25:38.

to the sector. There have been three European directives protecting the

:25:39.:25:43.

IP rights of artists and we discussed some of this yesterday in

:25:44.:25:48.

the Westminster Hall debate. The EU's copyright regime has been

:25:49.:25:57.

created for -- critical. There are worries the life of artists will get

:25:58.:26:01.

worse without the copyright protection is the EU provides. I

:26:02.:26:04.

know many in the industry have felt the EU is much more willing and able

:26:05.:26:09.

than the UK to take on the big technology companies which have much

:26:10.:26:17.

less respect. Some countries in Europe are perceived by rights

:26:18.:26:21.

holders as being more benevolent towards them. France being the best

:26:22.:26:26.

example because it holds intellectual property in such a high

:26:27.:26:32.

regard. It is fair that the UK Government has not been as war more

:26:33.:26:36.

receptive as some of the others in European countries. The European

:26:37.:26:40.

Commission has been far more sympathetic to rights holders than

:26:41.:26:41.

the UK Government. Free movement is a massive concern.

:26:42.:26:49.

There is no doubt that free movement across mainland Europe has made

:26:50.:26:52.

touring easy and less-expensive for British artists and musicians.

:26:53.:26:59.

Access to locations has benefit our thriving TV and movie industries.

:27:00.:27:09.

These issues are worried that Brexit book have an impact. We know this

:27:10.:27:17.

will create a barrier for musicians and artists. The honourable member

:27:18.:27:22.

mentioned the horrible difficulties that these issues have touring the

:27:23.:27:29.

US. Some have to cancel gigs and even hold tours because visas are

:27:30.:27:38.

not ready in time. Getting visas is a minefield, and it costs a lot of

:27:39.:27:43.

money, and is the reason a lot of people do not get to tour America. A

:27:44.:27:47.

large part of the fund goes towards helping bands get to America. Are we

:27:48.:27:51.

going to be at the point where they will have to start a fund to get

:27:52.:27:55.

people into Europe? That is a good question. If it gets more difficult

:27:56.:27:59.

to export things the UK is good at, what investment will be needed to

:28:00.:28:03.

showcase British bands abroad in future. Colin Roberts goes on to

:28:04.:28:09.

say, not only will our acts struggle, added is the small act

:28:10.:28:16.

that will really struggle, there are to assume iPod come to the UK

:28:17.:28:21.

either. As the coordinator of Live Europe, which provides a powerful

:28:22.:28:29.

European -- a platform for European act says, you cannot work on a

:28:30.:28:34.

European music project without the UK. Play in the UK is the step that

:28:35.:28:39.

allows small bands to get big. Will the UK still be part of that if we

:28:40.:28:43.

leave the U? -- if we leave the EU? Cross-border creative collaboration

:28:44.:28:57.

and the movement of talent across the EU is important. Areas with

:28:58.:29:13.

especially high proportions of EU and international formers include

:29:14.:29:19.

dance, opera, circus, video games and the music industry. Brexit could

:29:20.:29:24.

cause real problems for Sadler 's Wells and our orchestras. We debated

:29:25.:29:27.

this yesterday, but I would reaffirm the need for real reassurance from

:29:28.:29:32.

the Government for EU National is currently living and working in the

:29:33.:29:37.

creative sector, that they should be allowed to work in the UK. That

:29:38.:29:43.

works both ways, with UK artist working in the EU. Would Brexit mean

:29:44.:29:50.

that they would have to come home? There is uncertainty in the sector

:29:51.:29:52.

about the how the UK will compensate for lack of access to EU funding. I

:29:53.:29:59.

will give one example. The creative Europe and has supported 228

:30:00.:30:05.

organisations and individual companies, and the Cinema

:30:06.:30:14.

dissolution of films in other countries. If the UK leads the EU,

:30:15.:30:19.

does the Minister share the concern that in all likelihood, this funding

:30:20.:30:24.

will not be available to the UK? Finally, many of us had been upset

:30:25.:30:28.

about what about on June 23 says about written to the rest of Europe

:30:29.:30:32.

and to the world. I hope it can fight away to the next few years

:30:33.:30:36.

which means we have not pulled up the drawbridge. We try to encourage

:30:37.:30:48.

a positive feel about Europe. Music, travelling... What people are

:30:49.:30:54.

especially the younger generations, need today is to share some things

:30:55.:30:57.

simple and positive together. Live music can do this. In conclusion,

:30:58.:31:04.

but the Minister say today, in relation to the EU unit, which civil

:31:05.:31:11.

servant will be appointed to it? When will he or she joined

:31:12.:31:16.

negotiations question on which issues will they be? What

:31:17.:31:20.

organisational negotiations have been put in place for Brexit

:31:21.:31:29.

negotiations. What seemed like a lack of contingency planning and

:31:30.:31:32.

vision is causing considerable uncertainty. I have the Minister

:31:33.:31:35.

today can give us a much-needed reassurance. I also hope that, over

:31:36.:31:42.

the long term, we can consider what role arts and culture can play in

:31:43.:31:46.

those parts of the UK highlighted by the referendum result which don't

:31:47.:31:49.

feel listened to, Deauville Partners the UK success story -- don't feel

:31:50.:31:58.

part of the UK success story. It is so important to identity. Look at

:31:59.:32:03.

cities like Manchester, Liverpool or Bristol. It is not just about

:32:04.:32:07.

identity as a place, but at about your identity as a person, feeling

:32:08.:32:11.

part of things, feeling proud of things, feeling good about yourself

:32:12.:32:16.

as a result. I hope we can find our way through the Brexit minefield and

:32:17.:32:20.

emerge with a more positive story to tell.

:32:21.:32:26.

I congratulate the members who have secured the debate, particularly my

:32:27.:32:32.

honourable friends from Dundee West and Edinburgh West. I think it has

:32:33.:32:39.

come at a timely moment, given the other debates that they complies

:32:40.:32:41.

this week in Westminster Hall, and the fact that a number of the

:32:42.:32:45.

industry bodies had been having their annual receptions on the

:32:46.:32:51.

terrace and the function rooms and elsewhere. On Monday, there was a

:32:52.:32:55.

recession in the members dining room. Last night, my overall friend

:32:56.:32:59.

from Dundee West and several members that are here today were in the

:33:00.:33:03.

National Liberal club for the UK interactive entertainment reception.

:33:04.:33:10.

That being slightly less interactive surroundings than the video games

:33:11.:33:14.

that were on display. Festival season, as other member 's have

:33:15.:33:18.

said, is well under way across the country. I have a large number of

:33:19.:33:26.

personal and constituency interest which I will cover in my speech. I

:33:27.:33:30.

want to look at the scope of what we mean by the creative industries, the

:33:31.:33:35.

vast scope, as other members have touched upon. I want to look at the

:33:36.:33:41.

policy challenges and opportunities that have been covered in quite a

:33:42.:33:49.

bit of detail. By definition, I think straight industries are

:33:50.:33:52.

forever changing and renewing themselves, and adapting and

:33:53.:33:57.

evolving. So we have traditional areas of music, art, writing, dance

:33:58.:34:02.

and so one. It is important to instead of the impact of these. The

:34:03.:34:07.

growing importance of online and digital forums, both for accessing

:34:08.:34:13.

creativity and as a source of creativity is becoming increasingly

:34:14.:34:16.

important. My friend from Dundee West has already spoken about the

:34:17.:34:21.

huge importance of the computer game industry. There has been a 600%

:34:22.:34:25.

increase in another games companies operating in Scotland in the last

:34:26.:34:29.

five years. Yesterday, at the Newquay reception, I was fascinated

:34:30.:34:34.

to learn more about the increasing importance of what they call the

:34:35.:34:41.

sports, which were just called computer games in my days.

:34:42.:34:45.

Professional or competitive computer gaming as an industry. In July,

:34:46.:34:57.

Glasgow, the Scottish centre, will welcome the Resonate festival, and

:34:58.:35:03.

people from all over the world will come together to watch other people,

:35:04.:35:08.

real leaders in their fields, who have invested their time in

:35:09.:35:12.

demonstrating their skills in a whole range of different sports or

:35:13.:35:17.

interactive computer games. My honourable friend from Dundee West

:35:18.:35:30.

mentioned Lemmings. I do recognise this is a consensual debate, so I

:35:31.:35:39.

would go for too far down that line. CADDIE: Are attracting millions of

:35:40.:35:42.

followers every year. That figure will over take the number of people

:35:43.:35:47.

who watch the US National Football League. -- eSports is attracting

:35:48.:35:58.

millions of followers. I want to make a pitch for Scott

:35:59.:36:02.

and's another one craft product, the water of life. I think that the new

:36:03.:36:07.

and expanded to distilleries that we're seeing coming online. It is a

:36:08.:36:16.

unique and creative process, and Glasgow has its own distillery

:36:17.:36:22.

company. The gin that they are producing comes from the word for a

:36:23.:36:27.

creator, a poet. I thought that was worth noting as well. Glasgow, is

:36:28.:36:34.

omitted in my maiden speech is the home and focus of so many of these

:36:35.:36:37.

industries. There is nothing in Glasgow that is on the scale of the

:36:38.:36:41.

Anna Brett International Festival. Over the years, it has ranged from a

:36:42.:36:48.

benefit of different designations. -- the Edinburgh International

:36:49.:36:57.

Festival. When it became the European capital of culture, that

:36:58.:37:01.

created a renaissance of the benefits are seen today. We have

:37:02.:37:09.

gone on to be the city of architecture and design in 1999 and

:37:10.:37:14.

in 2008, we were designated as a UNESCO city of music, one of only

:37:15.:37:18.

nine in the world. The city is a real musical melting pot. It has

:37:19.:37:26.

produced countless artists. We're not allowed to read out lists, which

:37:27.:37:31.

is a good thing because I could reel off a list of artists who have

:37:32.:37:40.

emerged from Glasgow music scene. It has provided the stage for bands to

:37:41.:37:47.

break out into the Scottish UK and wider European scene. My honourable

:37:48.:38:00.

friend has the Glasgow Hydro. She can maybe intervene and test some of

:38:01.:38:13.

the news. My brother-in-law's band had their debut in Glasgow a few

:38:14.:38:15.

weeks ago. I have got the bandstand, and I look

:38:16.:38:24.

forward to seeing Tom Jones there in a few weeks. Courtiers have just

:38:25.:38:34.

finished their dance project. It was a bit of light relief before the EU

:38:35.:38:41.

referendum, I went to one of the performances there. There is the

:38:42.:38:46.

Celtic connections festival with global brand recognition. The real

:38:47.:38:50.

contributor to some of the stats we mentioned earlier. 1.4 million

:38:51.:38:57.

people attending music events in 2015 in Glasgow. Sustaining over a

:38:58.:39:07.

thousand jobs in the city. There are other creative sectors as well. I

:39:08.:39:14.

would just like to tell the member that next Monday and Tuesday, the

:39:15.:39:18.

select committee is visiting Glasgow to take evidence for our forthcoming

:39:19.:39:29.

culture enquiry, and the creative industries was the copyright is very

:39:30.:39:34.

reported to sustain creativity -- very important. It backs the

:39:35.:39:44.

industry. From the literary site... I'm not sure whether he will move on

:39:45.:39:47.

to a rival to the Edinburgh Festival. Would he agree that for

:39:48.:39:50.

lots of people who have not got great commercial backing, it is

:39:51.:39:56.

important to sustain creativity and the roots evaporated industries that

:39:57.:40:02.

people have protection from unfair contract terms so that they can

:40:03.:40:07.

benefit from the fruits of their work question at the CC a role for

:40:08.:40:15.

the Government -- does he see a role for the Government in that?

:40:16.:40:22.

When we look at the online at Digital expansion, and I'm aware

:40:23.:40:26.

there was a debate about some of that, these are all issues that are

:40:27.:40:30.

being challenged, his committee is welcome to Glasgow. If they would

:40:31.:40:35.

like to have some suggestions, we would be happy to provide them.

:40:36.:40:40.

There are things that we as inevitable parliamentarians can do

:40:41.:40:44.

as well. In my own office, I make space available on the wall for

:40:45.:40:48.

rotating local artist to exhibit their own works. In the past year,

:40:49.:40:56.

had Chris Stephens, but -- not the one that presents the south-west.

:40:57.:41:01.

Michelle Campbell, who does geometric renderings. And John

:41:02.:41:08.

Martin, who hatches characters, including the current and former

:41:09.:41:13.

first ministers. There are a range of ways in which we can support our

:41:14.:41:17.

creative industries. It is important that local authorities do the same.

:41:18.:41:20.

The West End Festival in Glasgow this year was curtailed because of a

:41:21.:41:29.

lack of funding and support. The parade was unable to take place. I

:41:30.:41:32.

was pleased that the Scottish government agreed that the meadow

:41:33.:41:40.

and the children's Wood should not be designated for housing because

:41:41.:41:42.

one of the members made a point about the importance of children and

:41:43.:41:45.

young people. It is a space where they can have creative and wild

:41:46.:41:50.

play. It is a board and we predict those bases, especially in urban

:41:51.:41:53.

areas, so young people can nurture their own creative talent. There is

:41:54.:41:57.

responsible at Heathrow the devolved governments as well. -- there is

:41:58.:42:03.

responsibility for the devolved governments as well. The greatest

:42:04.:42:08.

unknown is Brexit. Many mothers have touched on that. I agree with every

:42:09.:42:12.

word that the honourable member for Bristol East said. I don't feel the

:42:13.:42:13.

need to repeat those. Specialist institutions in Glasgow

:42:14.:42:25.

also have a great deal of risk involved with their students from

:42:26.:42:32.

Brexit because at the moment, there is a unique moulting jazz,

:42:33.:42:38.

classical, all kinds of things in the mix and that is under threat if

:42:39.:42:43.

we are not as an international institution. Yes, absolutely. The

:42:44.:42:50.

artistic and musical community are very concerned about the impact that

:42:51.:42:55.

Brexit will have, especially on the free movement of people and the

:42:56.:43:00.

ability of people to come to festivals as artists or

:43:01.:43:04.

participants. I am aware other members are keen to speak, but I

:43:05.:43:08.

think the point about nurturing future generations is hugely

:43:09.:43:14.

important, especially in the context of the Brexit result. We have a duty

:43:15.:43:19.

to open and expand our cultural horizons and I hope today's debate

:43:20.:43:28.

go some way towards that. I must congratulate the members who have

:43:29.:43:32.

been involved in bringing this very important debate to the House. I

:43:33.:43:37.

would like to highlight creative industries that the city of

:43:38.:43:43.

Edinburgh, the world's first UNESCO city of literature, is renowned for,

:43:44.:43:47.

writing and publishing. Books might be changing as the electronic world

:43:48.:43:53.

takes over but one thing remains contents, the creation of new works

:43:54.:44:00.

all waste needs -- always needs writers. We cameraman to size the

:44:01.:44:09.

image of the artist in the garage reheating cruel or porridge for

:44:10.:44:12.

sustenance but it is no way for someone to live and we should be

:44:13.:44:18.

concerned. The authors licensing and collecting society highlights their

:44:19.:44:23.

economic contribution. ?84 billion of gross value added in 2014, a

:44:24.:44:30.

year-on-year increase of 8.9%. Publish material and ?4.4 billion

:44:31.:44:36.

last year, three quarters of that in books and boosting the balance of

:44:37.:44:43.

payments with 43% of publisher sales being exports. Serious economic

:44:44.:44:48.

benefits. 254 million books were exported last year. Laid down, they

:44:49.:44:54.

would go up more than halfway round the world. And then there are online

:44:55.:45:00.

journals, E books and other digital contact and where would the games

:45:01.:45:06.

industry be without talented storyteller 's? We must support our

:45:07.:45:11.

writers. But there is another important reason to support them. We

:45:12.:45:17.

need writers. We need artists of all trades because art is what makes

:45:18.:45:21.

life and writers are special. Without them there would be no new

:45:22.:45:28.

books, no new plays, short stories, poetry, no great speeches for party

:45:29.:45:33.

leaders, no new films and no new dramas on television. Coronation

:45:34.:45:37.

Street, East Enders and River city would judder to a halt and time

:45:38.:45:42.

would be up for Doctor Who and outlander with their welcome

:45:43.:45:45.

contributions to the local economy and to tourism lost. Writers filled

:45:46.:45:52.

the space around us with art. They create our environment and they

:45:53.:45:55.

enhance our lives, they should get the chance of earning a living. Some

:45:56.:46:03.

make it big like Irving Welsh and has had very substantial success.

:46:04.:46:07.

Doing it the hard way and learning his trade while working other jobs.

:46:08.:46:11.

He was helped by Kevin Williamson who lives in Leith and was a one-man

:46:12.:46:17.

dynamo in the early 1990s. His efforts change the face of Scottish

:46:18.:46:22.

literature. Without him we may not have had Irving Welsh, or Tony

:46:23.:46:28.

Davidson. Rebel Inc altered the direction of Scottish writing.

:46:29.:46:33.

Irving Welsh is an exception. Most make only a very Buddhist income.

:46:34.:46:39.

Writers are important but we don't support them enough. We have also as

:46:40.:46:49.

has been mentioned, created a less hole for environment for the

:46:50.:46:51.

creative industries by voting to leave the EU. Like other industries,

:46:52.:46:58.

cutting them off from a potential workforce and potential clients must

:46:59.:47:01.

be damaging and they are not the only things that would be lost. As

:47:02.:47:08.

an example, creative Edinburgh is engaged in a two-year project funded

:47:09.:47:12.

by the European Commission, partnering creative hubs around

:47:13.:47:16.

Europe with the European business network to promote and support the

:47:17.:47:21.

creative economy. That project may be safe on the school 's of Brexit

:47:22.:47:28.

but would would replace such projects in the Little Britain of

:47:29.:47:33.

the future? My constituency is full of extraordinarily talented people

:47:34.:47:37.

like novelist of Al McDermott. Artists Ruth Nicol, creatives -

:47:38.:47:49.

Leith late, Sid curator, and more than 11,000 people employed in

:47:50.:47:57.

design. We see the computer gaming industry already a major part of the

:47:58.:48:02.

Dundee economy, becoming a serious and growing part of Edinburgh's

:48:03.:48:07.

economy. These creative hubs attract people from all over these islands

:48:08.:48:14.

and from abroad. Creative businesses flourish in my constituency.

:48:15.:48:17.

Independent art galleries, shops that sell handmade and unique

:48:18.:48:21.

products, working in the fields of construction will -- conceptual tea

:48:22.:48:32.

art. Will the mint in court call? Will be exchange of ideas slow?

:48:33.:48:39.

Creativity is stunted and output shrinks if this happens. Artistic

:48:40.:48:43.

viability becomes strained and economic benefits are reduced,

:48:44.:48:47.

perhaps extinguished. We need to stimulate the creative industries

:48:48.:48:52.

and I look forward to hearing the Minister's comments about how they

:48:53.:48:55.

will propose to do that in this current situation. The Chancellor

:48:56.:49:01.

could start with greater and better targeted tax breaks for the creative

:49:02.:49:08.

industries and devolving control of these two Scotland would be

:49:09.:49:11.

extremely helpful. Then he can loosen the austerity news to see if

:49:12.:49:16.

the support that central and local government offered the arts can be

:49:17.:49:22.

restored. Since we're heading down the EU exit ramp, we must secure the

:49:23.:49:25.

flow of people that make our creative industries viable. We need

:49:26.:49:31.

immigration policies that will bring people here, let them study, work

:49:32.:49:36.

and make their homes here. We need easier immigration and more of it.

:49:37.:49:41.

The creative industries need more government support for exports, help

:49:42.:49:45.

to open markets and guaranteed payments. If arms exporters can get

:49:46.:49:50.

it, why not creatives? We need creative industries high up on the

:49:51.:49:58.

list. These creatives are making a fine fist of it, it is about time

:49:59.:50:01.

they got more recognition and assistance. Can I begin by

:50:02.:50:11.

congratulating the members who obtained this very important debate.

:50:12.:50:17.

I would like to address the role of the university sector in the

:50:18.:50:20.

creative industries and in doing that I am indebted to assistance to

:50:21.:50:26.

University Scotland and Edinburgh Napier University which is situated

:50:27.:50:30.

in my constituency. Scotland has always been a creative nation and

:50:31.:50:35.

its universities have been at the heart of that. Scottish creativity

:50:36.:50:41.

punches far above its weight on the global stage. World leading talent

:50:42.:50:46.

has emerge from Glasgow School of Art, including Turner prize winners

:50:47.:50:51.

such as Duncan Campbell. Acclaimed stars of stage and screen. And we

:50:52.:51:00.

are proud of the literary success of novelists such as Ian Rankin and

:51:01.:51:12.

also Scotland's previous poet Laureate who was a writer in

:51:13.:51:17.

residence at Duncan College of Art and the University of college of

:51:18.:51:24.

Glasgow. And the video game of the lemmings which was invented by a

:51:25.:51:29.

Scottish graduate and which first put the great city of Dundee on the

:51:30.:51:36.

map for computer games. My honourable friend from Glasgow North

:51:37.:51:41.

was an in suggesting that members of the opposition could be described as

:51:42.:51:48.

lemmings at present. It was amusing to watch some of the Brexiteers

:51:49.:51:57.

scrambling in the face of the EU debate. Fashion graduate Rachel

:51:58.:52:04.

Barrett were chosen and warm by Lady Gaga. Edinburgh Napier University

:52:05.:52:11.

prepares graduates for employment in a significant number of creative

:52:12.:52:15.

industries. They do that through undergraduate and postgraduate

:52:16.:52:18.

degrees and programmes in the School of arts and creative industries for

:52:19.:52:23.

the school of computer and business School and Edinburgh Napier engages

:52:24.:52:27.

with industry and professional bodies through knowledge exchange

:52:28.:52:32.

activities, continuing development programmes and providing advice and

:52:33.:52:37.

support. In particular, Edinburgh Napier posts screen Academy

:52:38.:52:42.

Scotland, a joint venture with the University of Edinburgh and is

:52:43.:52:44.

recognised as a centre of excellence in film practice and is one of just

:52:45.:52:53.

three skill sets film academies in the UK. I stand to intervene on her

:52:54.:53:01.

as a fellow graduate of the University of Edinburgh. I wonder

:53:02.:53:06.

whether she could tell me whether she thinks it is something in the

:53:07.:53:10.

water in Edinburgh that helped create these creative industries or

:53:11.:53:13.

whether it is the hard work of the University that has concentrated on

:53:14.:53:18.

the creative industries and achieve so much for them? Addenbrooke now

:53:19.:53:27.

hosts more than one university -- Edinburgh. I think possibly it is

:53:28.:53:40.

due to those universities but also due to an atmosphere across the

:53:41.:53:44.

education sector which fosters interest in music and the arts and

:53:45.:53:49.

we are very privileged to host the greatest international festival in

:53:50.:53:53.

the world. Certainly growing up in Addenbrooke, getting to it and

:53:54.:54:00.

events at the festival was the sort of opportunity that not all children

:54:01.:54:05.

get. In my constituency reach right to ensure that the Edinburgh

:54:06.:54:10.

Festival reaches out to the suburbs beyond the city centre and that has

:54:11.:54:15.

resulted in some vibrant arts activity. To get back to Adam Brett

:54:16.:54:26.

Napier which is up the road from Wester Hailes, many students and

:54:27.:54:31.

graduates have achieved considerable success and recognition and they

:54:32.:54:35.

build on this to achieve strong careers. The students work readily

:54:36.:54:41.

features at International film festivals, including Berlin, Venice,

:54:42.:54:50.

Cannes, Beijing hads and Edinburgh. Their music students have also been

:54:51.:54:57.

awarded or short road state for national and international prizes.

:54:58.:55:06.

Very importantly, Edinburgh Napier offers businesses opportunities to

:55:07.:55:10.

link up with a diverse range of creative students for freelance

:55:11.:55:13.

assignments and this ensures the students develop their skills within

:55:14.:55:17.

a business environment and the businesses themselves benefit from a

:55:18.:55:25.

professional output. The success of screen Academy Scotland demonstrates

:55:26.:55:29.

how universities can support the continued professional development

:55:30.:55:33.

of those working in the industry and if I can mention a few graduates of

:55:34.:55:39.

Edinburgh Napier, the film director Lynne Ramsay, the photographer David

:55:40.:55:45.

Eustace and Colin Baxter and the broadcaster Katrina Shearer. The

:55:46.:55:49.

creative industries thrive on talent and they are dependent on a well

:55:50.:55:53.

educated workforce and universities are a rich source of that. The DC MS

:55:54.:55:59.

published analysis showing that more than half of jobs, 60% of jobs in

:56:00.:56:05.

the creative industry last year were filled by people with at least a

:56:06.:56:11.

degree or equivalent qualification and that is compared to about 30% of

:56:12.:56:15.

all jobs in the UK and there is often a view that creative talent is

:56:16.:56:20.

something that is innate, but I would suggest that is not the case.

:56:21.:56:25.

Talent must be nurtured and developed and that is what higher

:56:26.:56:30.

education does. Scottish universities collaborate with

:56:31.:56:34.

creative companies and industries bodies in the design of courses. But

:56:35.:56:41.

there is a problem with the skills gap and it is that issue I would

:56:42.:56:42.

like the Minister to address. Skill set research is showing that

:56:43.:56:51.

28% of companies in the treated and media industries show skill gaps,

:56:52.:56:58.

with a higher proportion in Scotland. It is interesting to note

:56:59.:57:05.

that only 12% of those studying creative industry related subjects

:57:06.:57:20.

in Scotland are from Scotland. What this means is that Scotland needs to

:57:21.:57:23.

retain its creative graduates, regardless of where they are from.

:57:24.:57:27.

We need to encourage people who have come to Scotland to study the

:57:28.:57:33.

creative industries to stay in Scotland after they graduate. The

:57:34.:57:39.

enterprising and ambitious and will continue to not only to the Scottish

:57:40.:57:43.

economy by broadly to the development of Scotland. It is

:57:44.:57:50.

important that the needs of the creative industries and the broader

:57:51.:57:53.

creative and knowledge economy is not lost through the post study...

:57:54.:58:12.

I fear that if the Brexit vote is to be implemented, this problem will

:58:13.:58:17.

only get worse as a result. It also affects students coming from the

:58:18.:58:22.

European Union. I thank her for giving way. She is making a good

:58:23.:58:29.

case about the visas for students studying in Scotland. The visiting

:58:30.:58:35.

expert was visiting Glasgow on holiday and wanted to give his

:58:36.:58:39.

expertise to some of the students at Glasgow School of Art, who had to

:58:40.:58:46.

refuse because it had on invitations for their own beta status. Then is

:58:47.:58:50.

to be a lot more flexibility in allowing people to come and share

:58:51.:58:54.

their expertise and talent without the necessity of formal visas in

:58:55.:58:59.

situations such as that. I agree. Every good country requires some

:59:00.:59:03.

sort of immigration policy, but we need to look at what is of benefit

:59:04.:59:09.

to our country and economy. That ability in visas is clearly

:59:10.:59:20.

desirable. -- flexibility. The starting salary threshold in the

:59:21.:59:27.

creative sector is based on average sectors in other sectors. People in

:59:28.:59:35.

the creative industries at the start of their career will earn less than

:59:36.:59:39.

that. They tend not to be in full-time appointment, the freelance

:59:40.:59:56.

as a waiter or barista part-time. There is not that minimum earnings

:59:57.:00:00.

threshold elsewhere. The organisation of universities

:00:01.:00:05.

Scotland has been making a positive case for a more competitive post

:00:06.:00:09.

study work Visa for Scotland for a number of years. It will be of

:00:10.:00:12.

benefit to universities both as employers and recruiters of

:00:13.:00:16.

students. There is support for a change in immigration policy in

:00:17.:00:19.

Scotland amongst university principals, staff and students,

:00:20.:00:23.

amongst business leaders and across all political parties in the

:00:24.:00:27.

Scottish Parliament, including the Scottish and Unionist party. It was

:00:28.:00:36.

found that the current rules for students studying in southern to

:00:37.:00:38.

remain in Scotland are to restrictive. In order to support the

:00:39.:00:45.

creative industries in Scotland and beyond, throughout the UK, the

:00:46.:00:49.

Government needs to be introduce post study work visas. I would urge

:00:50.:00:55.

the Minister to addresses issue in his summing up today. Thank you.

:00:56.:01:03.

It is a great pleasure to be summing up for the Scottish National Party

:01:04.:01:06.

on what has been a fine debate. There has been some sort of cultural

:01:07.:01:16.

geographic tour de force. There are cultural delights of the other

:01:17.:01:19.

cities around here as well. We are all enriched, learning about the

:01:20.:01:24.

great cultural assets of all these different parts of the UK. I declare

:01:25.:01:29.

my interest as a former recording artist, I refer to my entries in the

:01:30.:01:40.

register of interests. It is always fantastic to come to these debates

:01:41.:01:44.

and see how many more people are taking an interest in the creative

:01:45.:01:48.

industries, and the things that underpin it. I think it is worth

:01:49.:01:56.

mining ourselves again, and we have at members, particularly the

:01:57.:02:01.

openness of the debate, who I congratulate. I think it is worst

:02:02.:02:05.

mining ourselves of just what a fantastic thing that we do in this

:02:06.:02:11.

country. The UK is the largest cultural becoming in the world,

:02:12.:02:16.

relative to GDP. We are the largest producer of recorded music in

:02:17.:02:24.

Europe, second largest in the world. It was fantastic to hear from a

:02:25.:02:30.

honourable friend from Edinburgh North, talking about the writers.

:02:31.:02:41.

The creative industries is growing tries as fast as the wider economy.

:02:42.:02:46.

It was the Minister I saw who picked up we are now worth ?20 million an

:02:47.:02:53.

hour to the UK economy. -- ?10 million an hour. The way I like to

:02:54.:03:03.

look at this, and I note that there is this incredible growth within our

:03:04.:03:09.

creative sector, there are so many other sectors flat-lining. We have

:03:10.:03:14.

practically we industrialise this nation on the imagination, the

:03:15.:03:18.

creativity and talent that people of this country have. What a wonderful

:03:19.:03:24.

way to grow our economy, based on that particular virtue. I don't know

:03:25.:03:31.

if he's aware that the artists studios in Glasgow are so successful

:03:32.:03:35.

they are having to expand and expand. I went to visit one and they

:03:36.:03:44.

are planning on expanding. Will he support further support from

:03:45.:03:48.

government to expand studios within the city? Absolutely. What we are

:03:49.:03:53.

all seeing and experience in Conwy have heard that most the

:03:54.:03:56.

contributions, and the worthwhile interventions, every constituency

:03:57.:04:03.

and every committee now has some form of creative hub, providing

:04:04.:04:07.

highly skilled jobs, eating opportunities young people and

:04:08.:04:13.

implying people and encouraging the cultural enrichment of our country.

:04:14.:04:16.

I pay to beat to the wonderful work that has been done in her

:04:17.:04:19.

constituency and because it and seas of so many more members of the House

:04:20.:04:26.

today. -- and the constituencies of so many more members. What the

:04:27.:04:33.

creative industries do is provide a conduit that allows the enrichment

:04:34.:04:36.

of our nation and our communities ultra-lean. -- culturally. We are

:04:37.:04:47.

good at producing this stuff. We are also successful because we managed

:04:48.:04:51.

to provide the conditions that allowed this talent to develop and

:04:52.:04:57.

grow. I have always said, our major responsible at ease as legislators

:04:58.:05:03.

and murmurs of this House is too dry to create the conditions that allow

:05:04.:05:06.

the optimum environment that those who are artists, who invest in

:05:07.:05:11.

talent, and those who build our creative industries, we have got to

:05:12.:05:15.

create the right conditions that allow the sector to develop, grow

:05:16.:05:21.

and succeed. Up to this point, we have managed to provide frameworks

:05:22.:05:25.

that allow those creative industries to grow. There are certain things

:05:26.:05:29.

you have to put in place to have a successful creative industry sector.

:05:30.:05:34.

Some of them are fiscal, some are at the disposal of this government, and

:05:35.:05:37.

we have heard about the difference in some of the tax reliefs in

:05:38.:05:45.

certain sectors, especially in video games, and work on rising -- and

:05:46.:05:50.

recognising that we can work on those. We do make sure there are

:05:51.:05:58.

funds available for these things to grow. There are things we can do

:05:59.:06:05.

with incentivising them to ensure we can create that optimal environment.

:06:06.:06:12.

There are others that are more difficult to secure and achieve,

:06:13.:06:14.

this is something that I want to address with my points. To insure

:06:15.:06:19.

that those artists who are prepared to invest their talents are properly

:06:20.:06:25.

rewarded for their investments of talent that they make. We must

:06:26.:06:29.

continually strive to make sure that that is always the case, and all of

:06:30.:06:36.

this wonderful activity that we see, those who produce it rewarded

:06:37.:06:42.

properly for the work they produce. We need to ensure the intellectual

:06:43.:06:46.

property rights of those involved in our credit sector are all race

:06:47.:06:55.

respected -- always respected. It is part of the economy which is fast

:06:56.:06:57.

changing, developing all the time and open to development in

:06:58.:07:04.

technology. We are seeing that in the migration onto it ties -- onto

:07:05.:07:18.

digitisation. Winnie to beware of the demands and needs of the

:07:19.:07:22.

creative economy and sector. It is true, even though this is a huge

:07:23.:07:25.

success story, and we can see the current abuse it makes to our

:07:26.:07:31.

economy, it is still the case that so many still struggle to be

:07:32.:07:36.

properly rewarded for their efforts. We have to decide a properly

:07:37.:07:40.

functioning digital market which enables creators and rights holders

:07:41.:07:44.

to secure the full value of their works online. It has to be said

:07:45.:07:49.

again that this market has been distorted by some of the tech giants

:07:50.:07:54.

that we experience out there. I'm thinking about Google and YouTube,

:07:55.:08:04.

which act as gateways to some of the content. They make it difficult for

:08:05.:08:12.

those who are creating to be rewarded. At some point, we really

:08:13.:08:23.

have to get on top of how they make such a big impact. So often,

:08:24.:08:32.

searches on Google and other big tech companies still direct Bubba

:08:33.:08:36.

Watson sites that are either illegal or do not reward the artists and

:08:37.:08:40.

these issues properly. That is something that must now stop. This

:08:41.:08:46.

helps facilitate the worries about the value gap between rising

:08:47.:08:50.

creative consumption and decreasing revenues which undermine revenues of

:08:51.:08:54.

those involved in this. I'm thinking mainly about the streaming sites. We

:08:55.:09:01.

had a helpful debate yesterday. Several people spoke about the

:09:02.:09:03.

remuneration of artists online. We have a look at some of the issues.

:09:04.:09:08.

I'm sure the Minister took away another point yesterday. He

:09:09.:09:13.

recognises the valuable in shaping the debate. Someone is growing rich

:09:14.:09:20.

from the crate of endeavour from our artists -- the creative endeavour of

:09:21.:09:24.

our artists, but it is not the artists! Der parasite Company is

:09:25.:09:28.

coming into one little more than who have algorithms and restore this

:09:29.:09:33.

content you are growing very, very rich on the back of the people of

:09:34.:09:41.

this country. -- who are growing very rich.

:09:42.:09:50.

Lastly, I have to turn to the issue of the European Union debate. I

:09:51.:09:58.

really enjoyed the remarks from the honourable lady from Bristol East.

:09:59.:10:03.

She was absolutely spot on. This is a potential catastrophe for our

:10:04.:10:07.

creative industries. I don't think we could... This is really serious

:10:08.:10:15.

for our creative sector, if we are taking out of the European Union. We

:10:16.:10:18.

have heard all of the issues about the single market, about how we

:10:19.:10:21.

managed to get these wonderful products place to products within

:10:22.:10:26.

the European Union without further tariffs, and that impact it will

:10:27.:10:32.

have. There is also movement of people. One of the reasons that our

:10:33.:10:36.

creative industries are so successful, and why one -- why

:10:37.:10:43.

London is the creative hub of the world is that London has been able

:10:44.:10:46.

to draw and attract talent from the European Union, uninhibited about

:10:47.:10:49.

any concerns that these arrangements. It will be a real

:10:50.:10:54.

concern about what happens to the people who are employed in the

:10:55.:10:58.

creative sector, particularly in cities like London and an abrupt,

:10:59.:11:04.

who are dependent on talent from overseas. # like London and

:11:05.:11:07.

Edinburgh. We won't be part, might be part of

:11:08.:11:19.

conversations about this, and how we do that. The minister said we could

:11:20.:11:22.

do something about being able to discuss this with France and Germany

:11:23.:11:27.

and perhaps a proxy for observations about the digital single market. If

:11:28.:11:31.

we leave Europe, we will be extruded from this and we will have no say in

:11:32.:11:35.

this whatsoever. Most of our copyright roars have been

:11:36.:11:40.

incorporated into UK law, so don't need to concern ourselves too much

:11:41.:11:43.

about the protection of artists and writers and creators, because that

:11:44.:11:48.

has now been subsumed. There is a debate going on about innovations

:11:49.:11:52.

and new measures concerning our copyright laws. Again, we will be

:11:53.:11:57.

excluded from those, which will be a massive detriment to our credit

:11:58.:11:58.

industries. It was touched on by the honourable

:11:59.:12:09.

member from Bristol. It is coming out of something like Europe and

:12:10.:12:16.

what that does to us psychologically, where it leaves us

:12:17.:12:21.

culturally. Music, works of culture, things we enjoy, it is all about

:12:22.:12:27.

sharing, working community. We have lost something quite profound about

:12:28.:12:32.

how we talk about ourselves as a nation, how we shared this wonderful

:12:33.:12:39.

thing we have in terms of all this culture we provide. It is like we

:12:40.:12:44.

have stepped aside and walked away from our partners and that will have

:12:45.:12:51.

a very profound impact and effect psychological effect on our artists

:12:52.:12:54.

up and down this country and I don't know how we recover from this and I

:12:55.:12:59.

don't know how we start to address this, but you can sense the

:13:00.:13:03.

depression within our artistic and creative community. I hosted a

:13:04.:13:08.

meeting and speaking to people, all they were talking about was this and

:13:09.:13:14.

the impact and depression this has put into the sector and we will have

:13:15.:13:19.

to think about ways about how we try to help this sector and that comes

:13:20.:13:24.

to the Minister. That will be his job and responsibility. The

:13:25.:13:32.

Secretary of State who went against almost 99% he is supposed to

:13:33.:13:36.

represent in the creative sector who wanted to remain in the EU, he has

:13:37.:13:41.

to try and assign the way we go forward. He has the Digital economy

:13:42.:13:51.

Bill, what he needs to do is reassure everybody in this sector

:13:52.:13:54.

that he will try to offset some of the difficulties that will be done

:13:55.:13:59.

when we leave the EU. There is not much he can do about immigration but

:14:00.:14:06.

he can speak to colleagues and reassure them. The Digital economy

:14:07.:14:15.

is great. It ensures we have universal access to broadband and I

:14:16.:14:22.

am grateful for the inclusion in IP rights which will save online crime

:14:23.:14:32.

-- say online crime will be the same as in the off-line market. It will

:14:33.:14:38.

be a big job now to ensure that we do get to a place where we can start

:14:39.:14:43.

to rebuild some of the confidence that has taken such a heavy knock

:14:44.:14:47.

over the course of the past few weeks. Loftily, I am sure the

:14:48.:14:53.

Minister saw this fine report referred to a few times and that was

:14:54.:14:59.

the creative industries in Scotland and we were delighted we have spent

:15:00.:15:03.

so much time in the city of Dundee and what has underpinned the success

:15:04.:15:10.

of the creative economy. I was disappointed in the response and I

:15:11.:15:17.

thought the Minister suggested we would secure membership of the

:15:18.:15:20.

creative industries Council which again has been turned down. We were

:15:21.:15:25.

disappointed there was not a recognition about how tax relief in

:15:26.:15:30.

the creative sector across the whole of the UK. I urge him to look at it

:15:31.:15:35.

again. This has been a fantastic debate. I wish everybody well in

:15:36.:15:41.

terms of any competitions they may be in for various cities of culture.

:15:42.:15:47.

It was fantastic learning about all the cultural activities going on.

:15:48.:15:52.

This is an important sector for our economy. It is up to us to redesign

:15:53.:16:04.

a way forward. May I congratulate my honourable friend for Sunderland

:16:05.:16:08.

Central on securing this debate. And for her excellent and very

:16:09.:16:14.

interesting speech which set out a lot of fascinating facts,

:16:15.:16:17.

particularly about her constituency. When I was four years old, we lived

:16:18.:16:22.

next door to some people from Sunderland and I thought it was a

:16:23.:16:28.

country. It is a very fine place with the rich culture and history. I

:16:29.:16:35.

also congratulate those other honourable members from both sides

:16:36.:16:39.

of the chamber for supporting my honourable friend in supporting the

:16:40.:16:43.

debate and the members who have made such thoughtful contributions. I

:16:44.:16:48.

have to make my own contribution today but I should say I have a

:16:49.:16:53.

passionate and long-standing interest in the creative industries,

:16:54.:16:59.

most especially music of which this country is a world leader. As I said

:17:00.:17:10.

in the Westminster debate yesterday, the Minister will be responding I

:17:11.:17:14.

know, I was a part-time jazz musician in my youth as well as a

:17:15.:17:19.

member of the musicians union and the union has provided some support

:17:20.:17:24.

to my constituency party in past elections. I have also said I

:17:25.:17:28.

secured my first adjournment debate some 18 years ago on the subject of

:17:29.:17:33.

public funding for jazz which was and remains far too low but funding

:17:34.:17:37.

public for the arts is vital across the board and perhaps it is only the

:17:38.:17:43.

commercially successful field of popular music that can be

:17:44.:17:47.

self-sustaining, but even there, online rip-offs is making inroads

:17:48.:17:54.

into their incomes. If I start with music, we in Britain are

:17:55.:17:58.

astonishingly good. We have several of the finest orchestras and many of

:17:59.:18:04.

the finest classical these issues. I refer back to some 35 years ago when

:18:05.:18:09.

a European youth Orchestra was formed, auditions were held across

:18:10.:18:13.

Europe and is the best musicians had been chosen, all of the chairs would

:18:14.:18:17.

have been filled by young British musicians. Half the seats were

:18:18.:18:22.

allocated to the British and others shared with other European nations.

:18:23.:18:26.

Britain has been a dominant force for decades from the Beatles to

:18:27.:18:29.

Adele, we destroyed the world with an understanding -- ending stream of

:18:30.:18:42.

talent. Music is about harmonious sounds which do not require

:18:43.:18:46.

translation and when it comes to melody, harmony and rhythm, we can

:18:47.:18:52.

match the best. I returned to jazz where again we have produced

:18:53.:18:56.

Britain's musicians and superb music for many decades. For some 15 years,

:18:57.:19:01.

I was a member of the National youth Jazz Orchestra and how seen scores

:19:02.:19:07.

of breathtakingly great musicians passed through its ranks. This is a

:19:08.:19:11.

music I know only too well and know how these good musicians are. Amy

:19:12.:19:18.

Whitehouse sung with us in her teens. -- Amy Whitehouse. I have

:19:19.:19:31.

over indulge in my musical interest so far, but Britain also has great

:19:32.:19:35.

success in other fields. We continue to make some of the finest films

:19:36.:19:43.

studios, actors, directors, technicians bring a substantial

:19:44.:19:48.

revenue as well as entertaining, educating and informing us all. In

:19:49.:19:52.

theatre we draw in millions of tourists from across the world,

:19:53.:19:57.

especially to London to watch our great actors perform in top-class

:19:58.:20:00.

productions. There has been a recent British boom it even in dance

:20:01.:20:06.

choreography and in all styles. In broadcasting and radio and

:20:07.:20:11.

television, ours is the best in the world and drama and documentary

:20:12.:20:16.

exports are money spinners. I once had the misfortune of watching the

:20:17.:20:21.

Olympic Games on holiday in a foreign country and the presentation

:20:22.:20:30.

was abysmal. I could continue to wax lyrically about our creative

:20:31.:20:33.

industries and there are some fields I have not covered, for which I have

:20:34.:20:41.

to apologise but we have superb museums, a great heritage sector and

:20:42.:20:47.

great writers. However, I wish to make some serious points about

:20:48.:20:50.

sustaining our success for the future. It is vital to give every

:20:51.:20:53.

young person with talent the potential to develop and the

:20:54.:21:01.

technical skills needed across the sector. The talent in our Young has

:21:02.:21:12.

to be nurtured and supported it. In music, tuition is expensive and

:21:13.:21:16.

squeezing the budgets of local authorities has seen cuts in

:21:17.:21:19.

provision. Music must not become the preserve of only the children of

:21:20.:21:23.

affluent parents who pay for their children's instruments and she was

:21:24.:21:29.

shown. Instruments must be available for all young people to borrow and

:21:30.:21:33.

tuition fee free for children of school age. People from all

:21:34.:21:37.

backgrounds must be given their chance to develop and shine and that

:21:38.:21:41.

is not just for them but for our future success as a creative nation.

:21:42.:21:46.

We have seen, about our recent successful actor colleague, the

:21:47.:21:55.

brilliant actor Glenda Jackson, who said in this place that she could

:21:56.:22:00.

never have attended drama school without a full state grants and

:22:01.:22:05.

having to pay no fees. I wish to see education funding restored to the

:22:06.:22:09.

way it was when I was a student and have said so many times from the

:22:10.:22:14.

backbenches in this House. We must defend and sustain public service

:22:15.:22:17.

broadcasting, a vital civilising future of Britain which is the envy

:22:18.:22:22.

of the world. Public support where ever it is needed should be provided

:22:23.:22:28.

with generous state funding for the future of our industries and the

:22:29.:22:32.

magnificent contribution they make to our lives, culture and economy.

:22:33.:22:36.

We are a brilliant nation and we should continue to shine. I am

:22:37.:22:46.

grateful to be appearing in front of you. May I congratulate the

:22:47.:22:55.

honourable lady for securing it. It is a wonderful opportunity to debate

:22:56.:23:00.

our hugely successful creative industries. May I use this

:23:01.:23:05.

opportunity to welcome the official spokesman for the Labour Party, the

:23:06.:23:14.

new culture spokesman. I had the chance to welcome him in a

:23:15.:23:18.

Westminster Hall debate yesterday and I did make the point that when I

:23:19.:23:22.

made my maiden speech just over there, in 2005, he was just over

:23:23.:23:33.

there and he followed me, so he has always had a special place in my

:23:34.:23:39.

heart. Yesterday, I discovered he is a part-time jazz musician. I am

:23:40.:23:42.

playing for time while I find my notes. He obviously brings

:23:43.:23:48.

considerable skill and knowledge to the debate. May I start by

:23:49.:23:58.

welcoming... From memory, can I start from memory? I welcome the

:23:59.:24:05.

honourable lady's opening speech where she talked about software

:24:06.:24:13.

city, in Sunderland, set up in 2009. It was an absolutely brilliant

:24:14.:24:18.

speech because what she brought home to me was something I found on

:24:19.:24:24.

referendum day, because I went to Newcastle, doing my bit to secured

:24:25.:24:29.

the spectacular result we ended up with, and I met businesses from

:24:30.:24:32.

Newcastle and from Sunderland who managed to come together in

:24:33.:24:37.

Newcastle, which may or may not be a rare thing and one of the points

:24:38.:24:41.

they made was they felt strongly that although they had a lot of

:24:42.:24:46.

support and investment from around the country, they felt in the

:24:47.:24:50.

Northeast region, it was not well known enough how successful

:24:51.:24:53.

Sunderland and Newcastle are in terms of high-tech industries and

:24:54.:24:58.

the point they were trying to get across was that they want to

:24:59.:25:03.

encourage kids at school, keep leaving school and going to college,

:25:04.:25:09.

further education, University, to consider these industries. I went

:25:10.:25:14.

away with a promise that I will do all I can to encourage... I give

:25:15.:25:23.

way. I hope he uses the opportunity wisely. Given he is talking about

:25:24.:25:29.

young people in particular, perhaps in his remarks the Minister might

:25:30.:25:32.

reflect on some of the challenges around social mobility, making sure

:25:33.:25:38.

access to creative industries is available to young people from the

:25:39.:25:43.

most disadvantaged backgrounds. I completely support him on that

:25:44.:25:46.

because some of the changes we are trying to make, particularly the

:25:47.:25:52.

Next Generation group which was started by Ian Livingstone, the

:25:53.:25:55.

well-known promoter of the games industry and founder of many

:25:56.:25:59.

successful games companies, and some of the courses I have been to have

:26:00.:26:05.

been supported by companies like Microsoft. Fantastic courses which

:26:06.:26:09.

reach out to people from different backgrounds and give them the skills

:26:10.:26:13.

they need to go straight into employment, because that is the

:26:14.:26:16.

challenge we face, giving young people the skills they need. Too

:26:17.:26:22.

often some of the courses in further education are too far removed from

:26:23.:26:27.

the world of work and the creative industries because it is changing so

:26:28.:26:30.

fast because of the change in technology.

:26:31.:26:34.

I will give way to the honourable lady from Slough, whose speech was

:26:35.:26:43.

about to refer to. I wonder if the Minister, who kindly came to the

:26:44.:26:50.

agency event hosted by Battersea arts Centre, whether he would

:26:51.:26:56.

reflect on that concept of using creative organisations like them to

:26:57.:27:05.

enable and provide mentoring for young people to intimate creative

:27:06.:27:09.

ideas? We are certainly going to look at that. I will come to the

:27:10.:27:16.

paper on that in a little while. One of the reasons I saw by softening

:27:17.:27:19.

difficulty earlier is because what I have discovered in two debates with

:27:20.:27:22.

the honourable member for Luton North is that he gives commendably

:27:23.:27:29.

short speeches. I can see the Honourable members nodding with some

:27:30.:27:34.

understanding. I strongly commend him for this particular ability.

:27:35.:27:37.

Short speeches in this House are more than welcome. Let me say how

:27:38.:27:45.

much I enjoyed the speeches from the members from Warwick and Lymington,

:27:46.:27:50.

who has done so much to promote the video games industry, and widening

:27:51.:27:54.

the scope of this industry. There was the importance of arts

:27:55.:28:00.

education. I was not here for all of the speech of the honourable member

:28:01.:28:03.

for Selby and an ski, but I was in a debate yesterday when he spoke about

:28:04.:28:12.

copyright, but the wind it to support and the music industry.

:28:13.:28:22.

There is another valiant bid on behalf of the SNP to take more

:28:23.:28:25.

powers from the Westminster government, in relation to video

:28:26.:28:29.

games. I was not here for the full speech for the role member from

:28:30.:28:35.

Southend West, but I have to say... I was about to say he is unlikely

:28:36.:28:41.

jumping of the arts. That is unfair. Yesterday at PMQs, again, he

:28:42.:28:44.

commended Southend. I have worked out why. When I was thinking in a

:28:45.:28:51.

pub with Tracey M few weeks ago, the land lady told me what a huge

:28:52.:29:06.

fancy was of Margaret Thatcher. -- I was in a pub with Tracey Emin. On

:29:07.:29:10.

the day we learned we were about to get a second female Prime Minister,

:29:11.:29:14.

she showed me what a huge fan she was of Margaret Thatcher. It was the

:29:15.:29:20.

landlady, Margaret Thatcher and the honourable member for Southend. He

:29:21.:29:28.

said he will find out where that was taken. I think that was the start of

:29:29.:29:32.

this cultural career. Maher also commend the member for Glasgow

:29:33.:29:41.

North, especially in his mentioning of eSports. We need to promote those

:29:42.:29:48.

here. I was delighted to hear him talk about those. Manchester City

:29:49.:29:57.

have hired their first professional eSports the ballplayer. The support

:29:58.:30:08.

of local authorities is vital. May I also thank the honourable lady for

:30:09.:30:12.

Edinburgh North and Leith for mentioning our publishing industry,

:30:13.:30:19.

which we don't talk about, but because they don't receive the

:30:20.:30:21.

support that government gives to film and video games, but they are

:30:22.:30:28.

our most successful creative industry and Scotland supplies some

:30:29.:30:31.

of our greatest authors. The noble lady from Edinburgh South West took

:30:32.:30:36.

the points even wider, mentioning the fashion industry, but talked

:30:37.:30:42.

about the work visas as well as general access to skills and the

:30:43.:30:49.

issues of immigration after Brexit. A lot of things emerge from this

:30:50.:30:52.

debate. As the unmitigated success of the longest serving creative

:30:53.:30:58.

industries minister in recent history. In the last six years, the

:30:59.:31:05.

exponential growth of the creative industries... I will try to make a

:31:06.:31:11.

serious point here. They are our most successful industry. They Croat

:31:12.:31:16.

three times more than the rate about the economy. What I have seen

:31:17.:31:27.

reflected is the number of colleagues in this place who

:31:28.:31:29.

recognise the importance of the traded industries and take them

:31:30.:31:37.

seriously. There are issues about intellectual property protection,

:31:38.:31:40.

for example. Access to skills is another issue that was raised here

:31:41.:31:47.

as well. They are highly successful. Partly turbo-charged by tax credits

:31:48.:31:53.

for film, games, animation, and extending into the arts, supporting

:31:54.:31:58.

theatre and galleries as well. The other issue that was raised by the

:31:59.:32:02.

honourable lady from Slough, and she was right to raise it, is the

:32:03.:32:06.

importance of arts education. We will differ on this and there will

:32:07.:32:10.

be answered debate about whether the arts are being excluded from

:32:11.:32:13.

schools. I would personally reject that. I think people think that an

:32:14.:32:19.

increase in focus on science and technology, which perhaps has not

:32:20.:32:23.

been as strong as it could have been over the last few years, somehow

:32:24.:32:27.

means that the arts must supper. No one is stopping a head teacher from

:32:28.:32:32.

focusing on the arts and culture was up indeed, I would encourage it. We

:32:33.:32:40.

have been able to secure important funding for music education, or the

:32:41.:32:46.

creation of music education hubs, and a number of important programmes

:32:47.:32:51.

to promote heritage and culture. In terms of diversity and reaching out

:32:52.:32:57.

to more people to extend cultural experiences, the white paper which

:32:58.:33:00.

was the first white paper on culture published for more than 50 years

:33:01.:33:05.

focuses on the Citizen scheme. This is a planned which we hope to launch

:33:06.:33:09.

as a pilot in the autumn, to be embedded in a cohort of young people

:33:10.:33:14.

in schools around the country with arts organisations, giving them a

:33:15.:33:16.

wide experience of the arts. I give way. I am thankful. I particularly

:33:17.:33:23.

welcome the work that the governor has done around music hubs,

:33:24.:33:27.

Redbridge music services is one of the participants and does a

:33:28.:33:31.

fantastic job. Can I urge the mist and his Department to keep a close

:33:32.:33:34.

aye on the consequences of local government funding cuts on many arts

:33:35.:33:39.

and cultural programmes, which are coming under enormous pressure

:33:40.:33:43.

because of the strain on the finances of local councils? I thank

:33:44.:33:47.

you for his kind words. He has allowed me to perhaps make a further

:33:48.:33:53.

point about the white paper, where we have announced a proposal. What

:33:54.:34:02.

we have seen is the huge success of the European capital of culture for

:34:03.:34:04.

Liverpool. We have seen the huge success of the city of culture

:34:05.:34:08.

scheme, started by the last Labour government, which benefited Derry

:34:09.:34:14.

Londonderry and will be in place in Hull next year. It will allow them

:34:15.:34:23.

some funding to create a strategy. The north-east cultural strategy was

:34:24.:34:27.

one of the principles for this idea. We have seen groups come together to

:34:28.:34:35.

create a coherent vision, a long-term vision for the north-east.

:34:36.:34:41.

It is over the next 15 years. If we can encourage local councils, as was

:34:42.:34:44.

said by the honourable member for Glasgow North as well, to be

:34:45.:34:48.

understand the importance of culture, whether in terms of shaping

:34:49.:34:52.

places, creating jobs and bringing communities together, but also in

:34:53.:34:57.

terms of health and well-being, helping in education and helping

:34:58.:35:03.

bring people... I will give way. I agree with him, we should encourage

:35:04.:35:06.

councils to support culture. When their funding is being squeezed,

:35:07.:35:10.

they have to cut. There is no alternative. Would he not agree that

:35:11.:35:14.

we have to provide the funding as well as the encouragement? I don't

:35:15.:35:20.

want a range too far from my brief and start commenting on local

:35:21.:35:24.

authority funding. In my view, it is possible. First of all, what I

:35:25.:35:29.

object to is the fact that culture is always at the back of the queue

:35:30.:35:33.

and when it comes to saving, colchicine is to be the first thing

:35:34.:35:38.

that some councils do look at. There are a number of councils that have

:35:39.:35:46.

shown how you can continue to fund culture and also embed culture in

:35:47.:35:50.

many more different areas than simple putting it in a silo labelled

:35:51.:35:59.

colchicine. I have -- labelled culture. I have covered more than I

:36:00.:36:06.

hope to, because I was discombobulated by the pithy nature

:36:07.:36:20.

of the member's speech. There are some creative industries, driven by

:36:21.:36:29.

some remarkable people. It is focusing on skills, and a wider

:36:30.:36:36.

strategy. We must make sure that in a Brexit world, we work with the

:36:37.:36:43.

creative industries will they are calling cards of this country. We

:36:44.:36:46.

must ensure they are part of the debate, we must ensure, as the

:36:47.:36:51.

honourable lady for Bristol East pointed out, that they have a voice

:36:52.:36:55.

in a prodigal way. I can tell her now, came from a meeting this

:36:56.:37:01.

morning where we discussed the sectors in what is called the

:37:02.:37:04.

interministerial group, looking at key business areas, if you like,

:37:05.:37:08.

across government and tourism, the creative industries, the media and

:37:09.:37:13.

arts and culture were all part of that debate. We have so conduct one

:37:14.:37:21.

senior civil servant to that. We'll make sure that culture and the

:37:22.:37:25.

creative industries are taken account of, and also in a more

:37:26.:37:30.

wide-ranging way that the voices of our artists and creators are heard

:37:31.:37:36.

as we forge a new way for the United Kingdom. Thank you, Madam Debord is

:37:37.:37:44.

bigger. That a creative contribution from the minister when he lost his

:37:45.:37:47.

notes, and his recall some of my speech, I was highly impressed with.

:37:48.:37:53.

If he had his did any other in Sunderland, a photograph of the

:37:54.:37:56.

former prime ministers would be the last thing he would be likely to

:37:57.:38:00.

find behind the bar! It would not be a work in thing in my city. It has

:38:01.:38:09.

been, any serious note, a very interesting and informative debate

:38:10.:38:11.

on all sides of the House. We have ranged from Scotland, Slough,

:38:12.:38:16.

Southend, to Sunderland, all parts of the UK, with very... I'm coming

:38:17.:38:25.

to Bristol! With very diverse economies, where the creative

:38:26.:38:29.

industries are important to all parts of the country. With many

:38:30.:38:32.

members from Scotland contributing, they didn't mention my favourite

:38:33.:38:37.

festival in Scotland, which my son-in-law introduced me to, and

:38:38.:38:45.

that is the big pipe band, which he has played at on occasion. The

:38:46.:38:51.

contribution to our national economy, it is almost silent. The

:38:52.:38:57.

contribution is enormous but almost silent. For that reason alone, it

:38:58.:39:02.

has been important that this debate has happened. Some of the things

:39:03.:39:07.

mentioned, but a clear round education, the access to learning

:39:08.:39:13.

and the significant concern we have in the number of people applying for

:39:14.:39:17.

convocations, which is one thing I disagree with the minister on. There

:39:18.:39:20.

is an issue there that we need to watch and the governor at each

:39:21.:39:26.

watch. There is a strategy needed on all levels. The impact of Brexit, I

:39:27.:39:29.

think, the outstanding conurbation of the debate has been through my

:39:30.:39:33.

honourable friend of the member for Bristol East. That is a thing which

:39:34.:39:38.

is worrying as most in relation to these industries. The issues around

:39:39.:39:43.

these is, I know that talking to people before the referendum, the

:39:44.:39:49.

struggle some of our artists have getting to America. If that

:39:50.:39:53.

replicate itself in Europe, we have got serious problems. I will up the

:39:54.:39:59.

minister said on the fact that there is somebody so conduct to the Brexit

:40:00.:40:04.

unit, because we cannot over emphasise the importance of those

:40:05.:40:09.

things. I hope the Government do not overlook what is a growing and

:40:10.:40:16.

diverse economically important area of policy. And the impacts that

:40:17.:40:22.

Brexit will have. I feel reassured from what the Minister has said

:40:23.:40:26.

about that and certainly across all parties in the House, it is

:40:27.:40:31.

something we would all help with if there is anything that we can do.

:40:32.:40:35.

This is so important, not just to the creativity in our country but

:40:36.:40:40.

also to the thriving, growing industries that the creative

:40:41.:40:48.

industries are. The question is, as on the order paper, as many of that

:40:49.:40:55.

opinion, say I. On the contrary, no. The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:40:56.:41:07.

We now come to motion number two, opposition parties financial

:41:08.:41:12.

assistance. The question is, as on the order paper. The ayes have it,

:41:13.:41:26.

the ayes have it. I beg to move that this House do now adjourn. The

:41:27.:41:31.

question is that this House do now adjourn.

:41:32.:41:41.

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