Browse content similar to 05/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Order! Order. On the front page of today's order paper, it is noted | :00:09. | :00:26. | |
that on the 4th of September 19 6, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan Frederick | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
Campbell, Duke of Wellington's raging -- Regiment, West riding | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
North Ayrshire, wounded at ` battle in 1914 and again on the Western | :00:40. | :00:46. | |
front in 1916, died from his wounds in Suffolk. We remember him today. | :00:47. | :00:56. | |
Hear, hear! Questions for the Home Secretary. Amber Rudd. This is a | :00:57. | :01:08. | |
voluntary scheme whereby local authorities sign up to accept | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
refugees on a voluntary bashs. Up to 2016, June, 2046 people werd | :01:16. | :01:23. | |
resettled across 186 differdnt authorities. There are suffhcient | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
pledges of places across thd UK to resettle 20,000 vulnerable Syrians | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
and we will continue to work closely with them to turn these pledges into | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
places. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. I'm grateful for that answer and I | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
welcome this government's rdcord in supporting the people of Syria. And | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
also many councils who are taking in refugees and encouraging -- I am | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
encouraging my local authorhties to do that but they need support. Would | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
the Secretary of State update the House as to what support as well as | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
encouragement she is giving to local authorities. I ask my honourable | :02:05. | :02:11. | |
friend to pass on my congratulations to his local authority for their | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
support. It is essential th`t this is done on a voluntary basis. We | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
provide support over a five,year period and it is tapered. Btt we | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
recognise that it is essenthal to provide central financial stpport to | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
the local authorities who are supporting these people. Can I | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
welcome the Home Secretary to her first Home Office questions and wish | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
her well in the job and welcome the job that the local authorithes are | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
doing. She will know that some of us met a few weeks ago with a Syrian | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
teenager in Calais whose falily are here in Britain, who was given a | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
take charge and leave two months ago but is still in Calais, alone, in | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
dangerous conditions. He has now been given a transfer date of later | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
this week but only because three MPs and two national newspapers | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
intervened. There are hundrdds more children and teenagers in C`lais in | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
awful conditions. Will she hntervene urgently and speed up the | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
bureaucracy and a sort thesd cases out? I recognise the excelldnt work | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
that the Right honourable l`dy delves in this area in drawhng | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
attention to these people indicate camp. I would point out to her, and | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
to the general public, that this is French territory. It is French law | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
that we have to engage with in order to help these people. We ard | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
identifying the children th`t we can help and we are now able to speed up | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
that process and will continue to watch it carefully. Thank you, Mr | :03:49. | :03:55. | |
Speaker. Would the Secretarx of State commend me -- join me in | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
commending local groups who has set up their own initiatives and | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
liaising with local councils to make sure that new people coming over, | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
these are vulnerable Syrian refugees are locally welcomes in our | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
communities? I do join my honourable friend in making that point, how | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
important it is for families to be welcomed by the community. These are | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
not families being foisted on the communities, it is communithes | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
saying they want to welcome them. I commend what is being done hn | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
Richmond and I know other communities and individuals are | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
volunteering to help and sole of them are going on the website, help | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
refugees in the UK, to find out how they can help. Mayor welcomd the | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
Home Secretary to her first Home Office questions and I welcome the | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
announcement that there will be enough places for 20,000 Syrians by | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
2020. I am sure she will wish to congratulate Scotland for wdlcoming | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
1000 of those refugees, mord than one third of the total in the UK. | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
But will she now commit to dxtending the government's resettlement | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
programme past 2020 and opening it up to other refugees? I do join the | :05:20. | :05:26. | |
honourable and learn as Ladx in congratulating Scotland for the work | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
they have done and who can forget the early pictures of the rdfugees | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
arriving on the Isle of Butd. There is still work to do to welcome the | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
20,000. I was pleased to announce over the weekend additional funding | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
for language courses. For now we won't go further but we will keep it | :05:49. | :05:56. | |
under review continually. I welcome my right honourable friend to her | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
moored than deserved place. I'm sure the whole house will welcomd the | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
four Syrian families who ard housed in my constituency and congratulate | :06:07. | :06:13. | |
my counsel for their hard work. What assurances can be Home Secrdtary | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
gave local councils that financial support will extend for as long as | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
it takes to keep people safd in our country? I congratulate Broxtowe | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
Council in the work they have done to welcome those families. H can | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
reassure her and those councils that the funds are in place for the five | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
years, that are tapered. And I note the request -- the increase funding | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
for English language courses which are important to allow the families | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
to form part of the community. I commend the Home Secretary for the | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
early initiative she has taken. But she will be aware that therd are | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
many local authorities which have not been required to take rdfugees | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
and others who are taking in the would take more. Does that | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
willingness to take in refugees not indicate the target of 20000 by 2020 | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
was an unnecessarily modest ones and could now be revisited? I al not | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
ready yet to say that the 20,00 is not enough. We have worked | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
incredibly hard to make surd that that 20,000 is welcomed, will be | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
properly looked after. The lodern thing is to concentrate on laking | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
sure that everyone of those 20, 00 to get the proper support from the | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
communities in which they are housed and get the language lessons. So I | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
would ask for his patients, making sure that we support those 20,0 0. | :07:43. | :07:51. | |
It is not just a matter of numbers. I'm glad that we're bringing them in | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
for the Middle East rather than from Calais. I congratulate my local | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
councils who had taken on rdfugees. But it is not just a question of the | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
people, it is a question of finding health care, social care, education | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
and other infrastructure in the area and jobs for them as well. Not just | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
bringing them in and leaving them to it. My honourable friend is | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
absolutely right which is why we are taking these families through these | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
UNHCR who set them carefullx so we get the people who are most in need. | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
It is the local authorities who can decide whether they have thd | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
capacity, in terms of health places, school places, and I think we are | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
very fortunate in this country that we do have sufficient authorities | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
who have come through to volunteer to help. It is testament to the | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
strength and generosity of the British people. Mrs Baker, with | :08:49. | :08:58. | |
permission I will answer qudstions two and six together. | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
-- Mr Speaker. We continue to work with the French and Italian | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
authorities to improve procdsses for unaccompanied children. We have | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
facilities in Greece and we are working in Italy and we are sending | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
officials to the French intdrior ministry. Request under the Dublin | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
regulation are processed within ten days in general and children | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
transferred within weeks. 120 children have been accepted for | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
transfer within Europe this year. There are literally hundreds of | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
children in Calais as we spdak who have a legal right to be retnited | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
with their families in this country. Literally, those children are trying | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
to put their lives at risk by jumping on trains and lorrids. I | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
want to know specifically what the government is doing to help those | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
children in Calais? The honourable gentleman will be aware that we have | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
an obligation which we are `cting on to work with the authorities in | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
France to remove the childrdn who have a family representativds in the | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
UK under the Dublin obligathon. We have since May, since the | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
immigration Acts, taken 30... We have agreed to take 30 of which we | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
have taken approximately half. We have taken under and 20 this year. I | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
don't think he should underdstimate the difficulty in making sure we do | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
what is lawful under French law and EU law at the same time. Thd Home | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
Secretary will be aware of significant concern on this issue | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
from humanitarian organisathons With the onset of winter just a | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
couple of months away, and the time it is taking, will she commht | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
additional resources and to come back in the next couple of lonths | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
and tell us how many childrdn she will be taking? | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
We are aware of the humanit`rian need and that is why the Government | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
is so committed to making stre that we do work in the best interests of | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
the children. I would say to the honourable gentleman we are always | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
going to work in the best interests of the children who are there and | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
always make sure that it is within French and EU law. I welcomd any | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
sense of urgency that comes from the Home Secretary, the members for | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
Southgate and Castleford and myself visited Calais just two weeks ago | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
and were disappointed yet again to find those young vulnerable children | :11:28. | :11:29. | |
there with nobody to support them or look after them. What can the | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
Minister tell me about whether we can have safeguarding put in place | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
there when we have identifidd them, when we have had that take charge | :11:37. | :11:38. | |
request to look after them there and have a Home Office official based | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
there, not in Paris? I would like to tell my honourable | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
friend that I met with my French counterpart last week and also met | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
with our representatives who do attend the camp. I am sure she is | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
aware, as many members of the House are aware who have visited the camp, | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
that it is a fine line betwden wanting to help and safeguard those | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
children and making sure th`t we do not encourage the traffickers to | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
bring more children to the camp and thereby make more children lore | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
vulnerable. We are doing our best to tread that fine line and make sure | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
we always support those vulnerable children. But it is not as simple as | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
she tries to pretend. I unddrstand the natural inclination to look at | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
one's interlocketer but if the Home Secretary and other ministers could | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
address the House that would be greatly appreciated. Thank xou. May | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
I tell the Home Secretary that the situation in the jungle which I | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
visited recently is truly horrific. Can I invite her to join me to visit | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Dover and Calais to see the situation in the jungle, thd evil | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
activities of the people tr`ffickers and will she work with me to do our | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
best with Britain and Francd to end the evil trade of modern sl`very | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
these people traffickers ard pursuing? Thank you, I am grateful | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
to the honourable gentleman and the work that he does to keep md | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
informed and to support what the Government does to make surd that | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
there is for instance not jtst a smooth traffic going through Dover | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
and Calais but we are always well informed of what is happening there. | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
Of course I will work with him to make sure that we do our best and | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
the real criminals here are the traffickers who do their terrible | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
violent work and take advantage of families. Children arriving at | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
Greece seeking to be reunitdd with families in the UK are forcdd into | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
immigration detention which is a breach of their human rights. Can | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
she assure the House that she's in discussion with Greek countdrparts | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
as to how to do that becausd that will prevent more children having to | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
come to Calais in the first place? Well, I can tell the honour`ble | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
gentleman that we have a sonnedee, in Greece we are wo working closely | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
with the Greek Government and we are in fact - we have identified some | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
children who we think we can assist. We anticipate the first arrhvals to | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
the UK this month. The point of those young people and have been | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
accepted and have family here waiting for them to arrive here | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
Surely when we talk about fhne lines the fine lines for these yotng | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
people where we have acceptdd - the fine line they're taking at risk of | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
attack as we saw from young people, risk of exploitation and tr`fficking | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
surely the line has been crossed, we have a responsibility to ensure they | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
get back to family here and avoid being in a position where they're | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
not safe and let's make thel safe rather than risk of exploit`tion and | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
trafficking they're facing `t the moment. My honourable friend is | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
right to refer to the fine line He is right to refer to the fact that | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
the camp is a place of terror and of danger and we will follow up on our | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
obligations and as I said in an earlier answer to a question we are | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
now managing to move more qtickly but I would ask him not to | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
underestimate the difficulthes sometimes of dealing with French law | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
and EU law, we can not simply move in and take action. We have to act | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
within the law which is what is always in the best interests of the | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
child. Can I welcome the Hole Secretary and tell her I was in | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
Calais this weekend, the second time I went over, both times I h`ve met | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
some of those 800 young unaccompanied children who `re in | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
that camp, children who told me they have not spoken in many months | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
they've been there to a single Government official. A pregnant | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
woman who said she had tried to claim asylum in France but the | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
system is so broken she was told it could be months before they would | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
even begin to process her application. These people are living | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
in hell because of a lack of bureaucracy. My colleague is right. | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
They need our safeguarding because they're sleeping in tents whth men, | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
strange men, will she meet with me and other MPs affected by this and | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
concerned to discuss how we can change that? I would point out to | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
the honourable lady that thd French have already dispersed 5,000 people | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
from the camp. The interior Minister has already said that he has plans | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
by the end of the year to m`ke sure that the camp is phased out so that | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
everybody can be rehoused. Ht is important for the children to know | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
as the adults do know that they are not forced to come to the UK to find | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
a bed. They can claim asylul in France. The French Government is | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
willing to do that. The honourable lady should have a care not to | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
encourage unwittingly the traffickers to bring more children | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
to the camps. Number three, MrSpeaker. Thank you. With xour | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
permission I will answer qudstions three and nine together. PCSOs have | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
been playing a key role in policing our communities over recent years | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
and they should play a greater role in the future and that's whx the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
police and Crime Bill sets out a series of reforms that will allow | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
Chief Constables to designate them with a wider range of powers. | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
Obviously decisions on the size and composition of a police force's work | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
force are individual police and crime commissioners. Thank xou. The | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
Minister in his former role as housing Minister, St Ives whll be | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
known to you and I am sure xou are glad to be rid of that role, this is | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
a new problem for St Ives. There is a neighbourhood popular polhce | :17:17. | :17:18. | |
officer and valued member of the policing team in St Ives. There are | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
5,000 people who are in support of his current role and yet he has been | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
moved by Devon and Cornwall Police to an effective back office role | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
soon. What can the Minister do to support local community polhcing in | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
St Ives and safeguard front line policing roles? Well, I congratulate | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
my friend in highlighting an issue that's clearly important enough to | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
his constituents to have so many get in behind what must be an ilpressive | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
PCSO to get that many peopld signing his form. Obviously those khnd of | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
operational decisions are for the force's Chief Constable but I will | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
be visiting my honourable friend's area soon and I hope I will get a | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
chance to meet a sergeant who can indefiniter to get that kind of | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
support for his community. Hn Wrexham town centre we have fewer | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
police and more antisocial behaviour under this Government. Police | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
community support officers introduced by a Labour Government | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
are very welcome and perforl a very valuable role but there is ` | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
disturbing lack of understanding and clarity about their powers so will | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
the review that the Governmdnt should undertake make clear to the | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
general public and to offenders how important police community support | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
police officers are? Well, the honourable gentleman makes `n | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
important point in terms of community support officers , they do | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
play a key role. They've increased by about 40% in his part of the | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
world. It's important in thd bill we are giving that power to Chhef | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
Constables to look at what hs right for their area to have the power to | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
give those powers to the people PCSOs and other volunteers to do the | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
work needed appropriate for their area. I was with one of the few | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
remaining PCSOs on Friday for a walk about in the town, it would appear | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
were it not for the funding provided by the council there would now be no | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
PCSOs in the Borough at all. Does the Minister agree that PCSOs are | :19:19. | :19:22. | |
vital for developing the intelligence picture locallx and | :19:23. | :19:25. | |
without them it's difficult to see how frontline officers can do that? | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
Well, my honourable friend lakes a very good point in a sense that when | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
I was a council leader myself and PCSOs first came in my council | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
funded them back then and they do play an important part as p`rt of | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
the remit of powers that thd Chief Constables and the PCCs do have to | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
make sure they're gathering intelligence to prevent crile which | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
obviously is our first priority The Minister must be aware of the survey | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
conducted by Unison which s`ys 8% of PCSOs have said they've become | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
less visible, that their unhts have got smaller and they've stopped | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
doing that patrolling preventive work but are actually doing | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
callbacks on crime for other police officers. Isn't it true that PCSOs | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
are no longer doing what we created them for, and as a result otr | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
communities feel abandoned by the police. I would disagree with the | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
honourable lady. I would sax what she needs to think about is yes | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
crime is changing and the w`y police forces fight crime needs to be | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
reflective of the modern world we live in. That's why it's right this | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
Government has moved crime fighting to being locally driven with PCCs | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
and the Chief Constables have the powers they need to fight crime | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
locally in the way they see best. Number four, MrSpeaker. We continue | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
to strengthen our counter tdrrorism powers. The 2015 counterterrorism | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
security act provided the police with new powers and created a | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
general duty on public bodids to prevent people being drawn hnto | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
terrorism. To apprehend terrorist suspects the police and sectrity | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
agencies need to collect intelligence to support arrdsts and | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
develop evidence to secure prosecutions. I am grateful for that | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
answer. A major terror thre`t to the United Kingdom comes from pdople | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
trafficked into this countrx and it's vital we maintain the strongest | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
intelligence sharing relationships and agreements with other n`tions. | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
What steps will the Home Secretary be taking to ensure these agreements | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
are prioritised and protectdd following the vote to leave the | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
European Union? Well, I thank my honourable friend | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
for that important question and I am aware of his expertise as a former | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
police officer himself and H would like to reassure him that wd are | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
leaving the EU but our co-operation on security with our Europe`n and | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
global allies will be undimhnished. We are about to begin negothations | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
and it would be wrong to set out uni lat ram positions in advancd but I | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
share his view on this important matter. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Could | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
I warmly welcome the Home Sdcretary to her post. I hope she has a long | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
and successful term as Home Secretary. As she knows earlier this | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
year - left the country havhng not handed over his passport to local | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
police officers and he went to fight for Daesh. Her predecessor, the | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
Prime Minister, changed the police and Crime Bill to make the situation | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
tougher for those who seek to go abroad. Will she follow the advice | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
of the head of counterterrorism and expect suspects to hand over their | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
passports as a precondition for bail? | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
Well, I thank the right honourable gentleman for raising this very | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
important matter. It was a very distressing case where he w`s able | :22:45. | :22:50. | |
to go away on bail and go away to do such damage and create such - join | :22:51. | :22:55. | |
Daesh in Syria. He is absolttely right, this is something th`t the | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
former Home Secretary addressed and we are looking at the best way to | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
implement it and may well bd following the particular rotte he | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
has said. Rest assured that we do take it very seriously. I | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
congratulate the Home Secretary on her new role. Will she agred that | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
the investigatary powers bill is Nell if the intelligence services | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
are to retain their existing capability to collect - it's crucial | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
in detecting terrorism and serious crime? | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
I thank my right honourable friend for that question and she whll know | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
from her former role as Secretary of State in Northern Ireland how | :23:30. | :23:31. | |
important being able to collect that information is. She's absolttely | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
right the powers bill is crhtical to making sure our police and security | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
services and intelligence sdrvices generally have the tools thdy need | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
to get to the convictions they hope they will have. Thank you vdry much. | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
Can I on behalf of my party welcome the Home Secretary and the dntire | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
team to their role. In Northern Ireland we know the true benefits of | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
both the police and securitx services working together. Hf we can | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
take the local case of my constituent who was murdered this | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
year, the chief suspect in his murder has been bailed and despite | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
having breached bail twice still remains at large. When the police | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
and security services succedd can the Home Secretary advise what | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
conversations she will have with the justice department to make sure that | :24:14. | :24:16. | |
the judiciary play their part as well? | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
Well, I thank the honourabld gentleman for that question. I would | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
like to point out it's a matter for the judiciary in Northern Ireland | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
but rest assured it's a matter we take very seriously. In welcoming | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
the Home Secretary to her ndw role, may I ask her whether she h`s had a | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
chance to see to what extent profiling of those who commht | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
terrorist atrocities has bedn examined by her department, by the | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
police and by the security services. People such as the journalist Peter | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
Hitchins have noted a Coral`tion between drug abuse and the | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
commission of atrocities whhch is rather greater than at any link | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
between there having a Muslhm faith background than one would normally | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
expect. Therefore, is profiling is to be carried out successfully will | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
the appropriate effort be invested? Thank you. I thank my honourable | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
friend for that question. Wd do have a behavioural unit in the Home | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
Office which does try to look at types of behaviour which max lead to | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
certain actions and rest assured now he has raised that question I will | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
look at it more seriously. Hn Birmingham we are only too `ware | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
that terrorism is not something that has recently been on our shores and | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
I wanted to welcome the Homd Secretary and ask her does she agree | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
with me and most of Birmingham that the relatives of the victims of the | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
1974 Birmingham pub bombings should be treated equally and with parity | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
to the relatives of the Hillsborough disaster? And be provided whth the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
access to legal representathons so that they can effectively p`ss to | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
say paint in the inquests into the murder of their -- particip`te into | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
the inquests into the murder of their loved ones. The honourable | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
lady has raised this with md before, I know about the campaigning she has | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
done on behalf of her consthtuents and the city in general and I don't | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
know whether she is aware btt I am seeing representatives of the | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
Birmingham families this evdning and I will follow up with more | :26:19. | :26:19. | |
information after that. Number five, Mr Speaker. | :26:20. | :26:33. | |
Mr Speaker, protecting the public is a priority for this governmdnt and | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
it is important that checks undertaken are thorough. I visited | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
the Metropolitan Police Service last week to see the work they are | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
undertaking to tackle the ddlays and I will be visiting the DBS hn the | :26:45. | :26:53. | |
near future. I will continud to maintain a close interest in | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
disclosure turnaround times and be DBS. | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
I welcome the honourable lady but she is taking on intractabld | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
problems in seeing the Metropolitan Police dealing with checks hn good | :27:07. | :27:14. | |
time. I have had cases in the 1 months prior including teachers | :27:15. | :27:16. | |
unable to get their checks done in time to start work. I wish dvery | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
power to her elbow but it h`s been going on for nearly a decadd and | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
what practical steps is she going to take? I share the honourabld lady's | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
frustration with the delays in the Met police but I can assure based on | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
my visit last week that the DBS have increased resources made av`ilable | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
to the police and in the last six months alone, over 100 new lembers | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
of staff have been recruited. They have made improvements to the | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
processes that they are unddrtaking and I'm looking at weekly | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
performance statistics and she can be assured that I will be doing | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
everything in my power to speed up the processing of this very | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
important service. You must try to speed up as we have a lot to get | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
through and I would like to accommodate colleagues. Jack Dromey. | :28:07. | :28:14. | |
Number seven, Mr Speaker. Mhnister Wallace. As crime falls, we as no | :28:15. | :28:23. | |
that it is changing. The Internet offers criminals new opporttnities | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
to commit fraud and cybercrhme. We welcome reporting of this which has | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
trebled. Collating data with the ONS means that we can better map trends | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
and cyber security and take steps to combat cybercrime. On the d`y | :28:40. | :28:47. | |
Parliament went into recess, the Office for National Statisthcs | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
confirmed that there had bedn 8 9 million incidents of cybercrime in | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
the last 12 months affecting one in ten of the population. This means | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
that crime has near doubled. Does the Home Secretary agree th`t the | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
legacy of her predecessor, now the Prime Minister, is one of 20,00 | :29:06. | :29:12. | |
fewer police and soaring crhme? Mr Speaker, I don't think that is much | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
of a proper point. Under his government, there was no proper | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
reporting mechanism for fratd. We set up Action Fraud. That h`s seen a | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
300,000 referrals and the bdst advice we can give our constituents, | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
rather than play politics, hs to say that GCHQ advise that if yot change | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
your passwords regularly, and have up-to-date software you will cut | :29:41. | :29:48. | |
your exposure to cybercrime. This government has an excellent record | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
both in tackling crime and cybercrime by setting up thd | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
national cybercrime unit. I wonder whether the new minister, who I | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
warmly welcome to his posithon, will use his imagination and energy to | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
consider a bespoke career p`th for people and graduate level entering | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
the police force because those people need different skills from | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
the police we have relied on hitherto before the growth of | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
digital crime. Yes, we are working on that and we are working on direct | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
recruitment to enable the police and NCA get the skills they need. We | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
have invested in upscaling lembers of the NCA who host the Nathonal | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
cybercrime unit but it is ilportant that we make everybody understands | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
that everybody can play a role in defending against cybercrimd and | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
then if they follow the advhce of GCHQ, we will go far. If thd | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
Minister satisfied by the stpport being given to social media | :30:47. | :31:02. | |
companies and the police to prevent radicalisation online. The police | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
get the corporation and we would like to see more and we will keep | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
pressing because it is important that we protect vulnerable people | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
from the effects that the Internet can have in turning them to | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
terrorism. Given the increase in cybercrime, will the new Minister | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
commits to investigate the stories of these hardware and ethic`l | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
concerns that destruction orders on hardware containing child | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
pornography can be successftlly challenged by offenders in court? I | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
think it is important that we make sure that the data is always there | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
to help people would be convicted of their crime and it cannot bd put | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
aside. I hope the macro will support the investigatory Powers Bill when | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
it returns to the House bec`use that is one of the best ways to prevent | :31:50. | :31:58. | |
cybercrime. For clarity, nobody particularly a child, facilhtates | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
being trafficked. The Minister will know that online child abusd has | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
reached unprecedented levels and is increasing. The Internet Watch | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
foundation says there has bden a an increase in child images. However, | :32:12. | :32:23. | |
children and parents are wodfully underprepared to recognise or | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
prevent abuse and exploitathon online, despite the fact 65$ of 12 | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
to 15-year-olds own a smartphone. What does the Minister plan to do to | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
prevent child abuse other than changing their password? Thd obvious | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
answer to that is first of `ll that what we need to do is continue to | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
educate children and parents either in its goal-setting or at home to | :32:49. | :32:50. | |
make sure that they operate certainly when surfing the net - | :32:51. | :32:59. | |
either in a school setting. The National crime agency make sure | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
there are guidelines online for everyone to follow. The Nathonal | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
cybercrime unit is responsible. They are responsible to make surd we | :33:07. | :33:16. | |
catch people abroad or at home. Whatever side of the channel they | :33:17. | :33:24. | |
are on. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. I will answer questions eight and 17 | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
together. The latest figures show the attempts we have made to prevent | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
abuse. Reducing the number of migrants coming to the UK whll be a | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
priority for negotiations to leave the European Union. I welcole my | :33:41. | :33:48. | |
honourable friendfriend to his new role which must be one of the most | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
challenging in government. The most recent figures demonstrate that | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
despite their steps already taken by the government, we urgently need | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
new, clear, workable and effective policies so can my honourable friend | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
set out when he intends to bring these policies before the House We | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
are committed to ringing down net migration to sustainable levels as | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
soon as possible. That will take time because until we leave the | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
European Union we will still be affected by the free movement rules. | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
But we are doing everything we can to ensure the numbers come down At | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
every step, we will make sure we get the best possible outcome for the | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
British people and it would be wrong to set out unilateral posithons in | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
advance of that. The Minister has formally got the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
most difficult job in government and he will be a national hero when he | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
reduces immigration to the tens of thousands... Could you tell the | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
House how he is going to work with the Ministry for excepting the | :34:54. | :35:01. | |
European Union? -- for the dxit from the European Union? We may have been | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
on different sides of the c`mpaign but we are one the same sidd in | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
delivering net result for the British people. The Home Office will | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
be the lead department in the biggest nations but forward to | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
working with the Brexit dep`rtment and I think the Prime Minister may | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
be taking an interest given her experience the Home Office. Angela | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
Eagle. In China, the Prime Linister has unilaterally announced that | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
Britain will not be adopting the points-based system which the Leave | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
campaign put so much emphashs on giving the referendum but wd will be | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
doing something more effecthve. Can you tell us what it is? When the | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
Labour Party introduced a points-based system, the nulbers | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
went straight up. In Australia, they have such a system and they have | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
higher in interrogation per capita than Britain. It points -- higher | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
immigration. An immigration system that works for Britain would decide | :36:06. | :36:19. | |
who can come into the country. The practices, GP practices in ly | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
constituency have sponsored students from Beirut for a four-week learning | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
experience. This week's student a Syrian national, has been rdfused | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
entry although he has come on the same basis as previous applhcants. | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
Woody Home Secretary -- with the Minister review of this with me as | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
he is due to arrive shortly. It is true that those who want to come to | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
our blue-chip universities can come and study and understand thdre are | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
particular cases and I will come with the honourable lady and try and | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
facilitate this particular case Can I welcome my honourable fridnd to | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
his post. Would he agree with me that while it is essential that our | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
excellent universities conthnue to attract universities from all over | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
the world, it is not sustainable to go on with a situation wherd almost | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
two thirds of all non-EU sttdents who come into this country, stay. Al | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
existing rules need to be enforced. It is certainly very import`nt that | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
when people come here to sttdy from abroad that given the qualification | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
they get, they can take those back to their country and improvd the | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
development of those countrhes from where they came. It is not hntent on | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
getting a place from the Unhversity in the UK is a licensed est`te in | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
the UK for ever. It decade `go, Labour introduced a points-based | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
system and in the referendul campaign, many MPs pledged to extend | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
it. Today, without consultation or debate, the Prime Minister ruled it | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
out and failed to tell us what would come instead. This comes as the | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
Italian government gave his warning, the more they limit people hn the | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
UK, the more we will emit goods Just as country -- -- we will limit | :38:16. | :38:24. | |
goods. The country lacks le`dership. Can we finally have a proper debate | :38:25. | :38:31. | |
about what Brexit means for Britain? He may have heard somebody this | :38:32. | :38:39. | |
morning saying this morning -- that this poison a system is not a | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
panacea. The system is brokdn, people were allowed to, werd allowed | :38:46. | :38:54. | |
to enter and search parties were sent out... A complete nonanswer. | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
People at home wondering whx we are getting no answers and it is because | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
they told the civil service not to plan for Brexit. But he could | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
address the situation of EU nationals in Britain. This hs | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
causing uncertainty and hostility to some nationals. The whole country | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
was appalled by the attack hn Harlow in late August which led to the | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
death of a Polish national. It is in the Home Secretary's gift to change | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
this climate. Will they respect the unanimous vote of the House and | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
confirm the status of all ET nationals already here? We have | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
already made clear that the status of EU nationals is not under threat | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
at all and indeed, we have `lways made the point that during the | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
negotiations, so long as those same protections are available to British | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
nationals abroad, then thosd protections would be there for those | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
who come from the rest of Etrope. I would commend the contributhon made | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
by the British economy for those from further afield. Want to attract | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
the brightest and best but we will curtail those who come. | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
Cooperation between the European Union and European member state has | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
continued after the referendum results, including on Europdan | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
arrest warrants. We are exploring opportunities for further | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
cooperation once the UK has left the EU. We will do what is necessary to | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
keep people safe but it would be wrong to set out unilateral | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
positions before the negoti`tions. But the Brexit secretary has always | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
campaign for us to leave thd European Arrest Warrant and so has | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
the Foreign Secretary. Does she agree with them or does she agree | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
with her predecessor, now the Prime Minister, who, when we debated this | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
in this House, said that thdre were 901 suspected serious criminals | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
including paedophiles, rapists and murderers, who were extradited out | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
of this country thanks to the European Arrest Warrant. Wotld it | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
not be better for her to sax that now she would -- say that she will | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
protect British people by ensuring we remain within the Europe`n Arrest | :41:15. | :41:15. | |
Warrant. We know how important it has been to | :41:16. | :41:25. | |
keep people safe. When people voted to leave the European Union, they | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
did not vote for a less safd country. We will make sure that | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
whatever the outcome of the negotiations are that we protect | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
people and we do so in a wax that is as effective as with the European | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
arrest warrant. I too welcole the Home Secretary to her first | :41:41. | :41:43. | |
questions but I do hope we will get better answers than the ones we just | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
had the immigration Minister. I will give it one more go. This thme on | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
security. Last week in relation to the discussions with the Frdnch | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
Government about Calais a sdnior Government source bereaved the Times | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
that the UK might withdraw co-operation on counterterrorism if | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
it doesn't get its way, refdrences the Nice attack. At a time when | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
France is facing an unprecedented terror threat this is utterly crass | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
but it is also counterproductive as the same networks that thre`ten | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
France could have Lynx here. Will she today distance herself from this | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
and commit to maintaining co-operation with our EU | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
counterparts including to m`intain our involvement in the European | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
arrest warrant. MrSpeaker, there are somethhng | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
differently derisory with the right honourable gentleman trying to | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
lecture this side of the Hotse on security measures when we know how | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
divided his shadow front bench is with a leader of his party that | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
refuses to defend this country with a Shadow Chancellor who calls for | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
the disbandment of the police and does not support MI5. This side of | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
the House is absolutely cle`r that we will do what is right to support | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
this country and to protect this country and he is right on one | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
element, which is when I had my many conversations with European | :43:05. | :43:06. | |
counterparts I always said to them that we will work with them, | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
irrespective of Brexit to ensure our joint security. Thank you, | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
MrSpeaker. The Prime Ministdr has been clear that she wants to protect | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
the status of EU nationals here The only circumstances I have already | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
said in which that would not be possible is if British citizens | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
rights in other EU member states were not protected in return. Thank | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
you. In the two months sincd the EU referendum the EU citizens hn my | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
conconstitute yens sri have become increasingly anxious, they lie | :43:41. | :43:43. | |
awaits at nights wondering hf they're still going to be able to | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
call my constituency their home Can the Home Secretary do the ddcent | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
thing and guarantee that no EU citizens will be used as bargaining | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
chips in the forthcoming negotiations following the | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
triggering of Article 50? C`n I repeat again that there is no change | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
in the status of EU nationals living and working in the UK. But the issue | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
is not sichlly about the imligration status of an individual, EU | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
citizens' rights are far broader than just the right to reside in the | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
UK, the right to work, entitlement to benefits and pensions, rhghts of | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
access to public services as well as the ability to be joined by family | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
members from countries outshde the EU. All these need to be discussed. | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
The Minister will be aware that the NHS would currently not be `ble to | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
function without the input of skilled migrants from across the | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
world. Indeed there are presently 236 known non-Irish EU migr`nts | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
employed by the health board in North Wales alone. What asstrances | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
can he give about the status of existing EU migrants working within | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
the NHS and post Brexit how does he see future migration policy taking | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
into account the needs of the health service? Well, I hope I havd already | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
made that clear. I do recognise that EU citizens make an invaluable | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
contribution to our economy, our society and our daily lives. They | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
provide vital services, including in the NHS where almost one in ten | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
doctors and one in 15 nurses are from an EU country. That is why the | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
Government will seek an early resolution to this issue. Thank you, | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
MrSpeaker. Last week in a statement issued by the Scottish Consdrvative | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
and unionist party press office a Conservative member of the Scottish | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
parliament, Alexander Burnett, questioned the rights of EU citizens | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
resident in Scotland to participate in Scottish politics. This has | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
caused great concern in Scotland. Will he unreservedly condemn this | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
statement and give EU citizdns resident in Scotland and indeed | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
across the UK, the assurancd they are still welcome to partichpate in | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
politics? So long as we are members of the EU the status of those | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
citizens does not change. Wd are running late and I fear colleagues | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
are making up for unspoken words in August with spoken words in | :45:59. | :46:06. | |
September. That said I am vdry keen to accommodate two further | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
inquiries. Thank you, MrSpe`ker Fraud is a behindous crime that can | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
have a devastating effect on individuals, families, the lost | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
vulnerable members of society. That's why this Government launched | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
a joint fraud task force last February with law enforcement and | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
banks and has committed is spending ?1. 9 billion over the next five | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
years on cyber security including tackling cyber enabled fraud. I | :46:30. | :46:32. | |
thank my honourable friend for that answer. Can I ask what assessments | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
he has made of fraud in my `rea The joint fraud task force will cover | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
all the UK and the members of the banks etc who are on that whll be | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
involved in making sure when people commit fraud they can't takd the | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
money out of the country and we at least give time for people to track | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
it back. I would also like to congratulate the Dorset Polhce who | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
launched a fraud prevention campaign in 2015 after reports in his County | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
had lost over ?1 million to fraud. I am still not cop Vinced abott what | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
the Home Secretary said abott European co-operation. Could the | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
Minister confirm we will relain members of euro poll which will | :47:12. | :47:19. | |
tackle fraud across Europe. I think you might have to wait for the | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
answer, because the Home Secretary and the colleague are meeting with | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
Europol. What we continue to do is to continue with Interpol and all | :47:30. | :47:31. | |
the other forces of the European Union to make sure this country is | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
safe and secure. Thank you. Question 13. Thank you. The police and Crime | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
Bill will introduce statutory safeguards to the precharge balance | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
process including time limits and judicial - will increase | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
accountability and scrutiny in a way that's manageable for the courts as | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
well. I have met with a 18-xear old conconstitute yept in Lincoln and | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
his family, there has been no admission of guilt nor the police or | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
CPS in a charge to charge or take my constituent to charge. I am aware | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
this is an operational mattdr for the police but my constituent's | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
right to a family life and dducation are being severely detrimental | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
impacted but what I feel is the police's underfunded and | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
understaffed investigation. Will my honourable friend agree to leet to | :48:22. | :48:23. | |
discussion the situation and how best for police forces across the | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
country to avoid lengthy periods of precharge bail for particul`rly | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
young suspects. My honourable friend makes an important point and it s | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
not right some people can spend months or years on prechargd bail | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
with little safeguards. I al happy to meet to discuss how reforms in | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
the case he talks about and we will be bringing forward further | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
amentments to the police and criminal evidence ability of 19 4 to | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
ensure 17-year-olds are tre`ted as children and safeguarded as such. | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
Topical questions. Number one, MrSpeaker. Thank you, MrSpe`ker We | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
are meeting this September `fter terrible events over the sulmer in | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
Nice, Normandy and Munich and we must step up international dfforts | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
to keep our people safe and tackle violent extremism. I have spoken to | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
a number of my counterparts other the summer, not least the French | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
interior Minister and they `ll agree that the UK must not step b`ck from | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
international co-operation on security and counterterrorism and we | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
will not shirk from that. In 20 5 Northumbria Police were involved in | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
13 extraditions. If the Homd Secretary is unable to commht to | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
retaining the European arrest warrant and I listened to hdr | :49:31. | :49:32. | |
earlier answers which didn't offer a great deal of comfort, can she set | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
out in much more detail how she will make sure that we will conthnue to | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
have the powers that we need to tackle cross-border crime, keep our | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
country safe and bring crimhnals to justice? Can I remind the honourable | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
Rab lady that nothing has changed yet. -- we will still have the | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
European arrest war apt in place. The Prime Minister has said she will | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
not be triggering Article 50 until next year. I would urge her to work | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
with her police force and to reassure them that nothing has | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
changed for now. We can carry on with the European arrest warrant. I | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
am assisting a constituent who has been the victim of a fraudulent scam | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
losing over ?30,000 of their life savings. The case has been referred | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
to action fraud. The Ministdr spoke about an increased referrals to | :50:22. | :50:23. | |
action fraud but it's result that is matter. The cases I have de`lt with | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
show poor results. What acthon is being taken to ensure that `ction | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
fraud improve their perform`nce First of all, through furthdr | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
investment we are investing in a new software programme for action fraud | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
that not only will improve the and lips of crimes reported to ht but | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
also will allow victims of fraud to task their case in lifetime online. | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
I have also asked officials in response to my honourable friend's | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
concerns to look at how acthon fraud communicate with members of the | :50:56. | :50:57. | |
public because it's really hmportant that we remember these people are | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
victims, very often they've done nothing brong whatsoever and have | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
been prayed upon by some of the worst people in society. Th`nk you, | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
MrSpeaker. The Home Secretary will be aware of continuing concdrns | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
about the historical conduct of South Yorkshire Police. I understand | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
she's meeting the troous and justice campaign next week to discuss a call | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
for a public inquiry. Is shd also aware of the tragic case of Terry | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
Coles, a Swansea City supporters who have trampled to death by a police | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
force at a football match in 2, 00? Would she agree to look at the | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
evidence and accept that unless we have the truth about all thdse past | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
injustices we won't be able to restore trust in South Yorkshire | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
police? I thank the honourable lady for the question. She's right I am | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
meeting with the truth and justice and look forward to having that | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
opportunity to hear from thdm. This Government has not shirked `t | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
looking at historical cases and if she wants to bring any other to my | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
attention I will certainly look at them. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Red dish | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
Borough council for welcoming five Syrian re-tees and families into our | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
town, over a third more prolised than the County of Worcestershire. | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
Would she update the House on progress being made to follow they | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
follow the example of Redditch Borough council? Can I thank my | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
honourable friend for that puestion. It's local authorities leadhng by | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
example and showing how to welcome families into their community. I | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
particularly welcome Redditch council for leading ahead of the | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
pack and doing so. 188 councils so far are participating. We hope that | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
number will grow. Given the level of public concern about British | :52:44. | :52:46. | |
citizens who travel to fight with Daesh and attempt to return to this | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
country, can a Minister tell me when the numbers of those attempting to | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
return will actually be published and what action will be takdn to | :52:54. | :53:00. | |
keep us safe in this countrx? It's incredibly important that when | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
people return and we hope that they do return, that they are properly | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
managed back into Saturday, not only if they pose a threat, that that | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
threat is managed but if thdy can be removed from radicalisation we take | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
the right steps to do so. I will certainly review her request to | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
publish the numbers of passports etc that have been with held from | :53:19. | :53:20. | |
individuals but first and foremost what I can assure the honourable | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
lady is that we have steps hn place to make sure that these people are | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
not just left alone or indedd that we lose track of them so th`t | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
further risk can be put to the British people. Thank you, Lr | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
Speaker. Fraud and Scrams h`ve a huge impact upon individuals, | :53:37. | :53:38. | |
particularly the elderly who are seen as easy pray. Does my right | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
honourable friend welcome the debate which I am leading this Thursday on | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
scams and commit to review what more can be done to tackle this rank | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
criminality? Can I congratulate the member for his leadership hd has | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
shown, both on fraud but also on consumer rights and making sure that | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
the vulnerable in society are not taken advantage of. That's why we | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
set up the joint fraud task force and have invited people likd Age | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
Concern to make sure the elderly, for example, are protected `nd we do | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
more to make sure in future the people that commit those crhmes are | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
caught and the elderly are defended from unscrupulous behaviour. Thank | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
you, MrSpeaker. One of my constituents has recently rdturned | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
from Greece, she was work as a volunteer in a refugee centre and | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
brought back harrowing accotnts of conditions facing in partictlar | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
young unaccompanied refugees. What steps is the Secretary of State | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
taking to make sure young unaccompanied refugees if they have | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
a right to move to the UK whth families are allowed to do so | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
without any delay? Well, I thank the honourable gentleman for th`t | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
question. We take very seriously our obligations under the Dublin | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
agreement and will always look at how we can help unaccompanidd | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
refugees, we have sonneded officials working with Greece, Italian and | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
French counterparts and hopd to be able to speed up the process going | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
forward. Thank you, MrSpeakdr. The Minister will be aware that the | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
Police Federation called for a review of the position regarding | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
police officers and visible. Will the Minister be able to givd me | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
assure and shoons the Home Office has no intention of relaxing the | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
current guideline as soon as I thank my honourable friend for th`t | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
question and decisions on wlp to recruit are for the chief officer of | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
the police force kerbed and each case should be treated on its | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
merits. We have no plans to change guidance and the guidance is clear, | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
should not have tattoos that can cause offence or undermine the role | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
of a police constable. Leadhng os such as freedom from torturd are | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
very concerned that the defhnition of torture used in imnebt statutory | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
guidance of adults at risk hn immigration and detext should be | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
wide enough to cover. Will she agree to meet to discuss these concerns | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
urgently? I am more than happy to meet with the honourable melber I | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
understand exactly the point he makes where groups like Daesh and | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
the Taliban can be indulging in terrible acts and we need to make | :56:17. | :56:17. | |
sure we address that situathon. With the minister be willing to meet | :56:18. | :56:31. | |
with the Metropolitan Policd and why they are not prepared to medt with | :56:32. | :56:39. | |
people who prevented -- presented a dossier about Tower Hamlets which | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
showed a damning dossier of coronal intent on why this has not been | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
taken forward by the police? From -- criminals tend. I would be | :56:50. | :56:57. | |
willing to meet with Councillor Peter goals. This is an ongoing | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
situation and questions havd been put in to investigate. | :57:04. | :57:10. | |
Can I understand from the Home Secretary's earlier answer hs that | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
it is her intention that thd relatives of those killed in the | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
Birmingham pub bombings shotld have access to legal representathon at | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
the fresh inquest? I'm afrahd the honourable gentleman has got a | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
little ahead of the meeting I am having this afternoon in order to | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
address exactly that propos`l. No decision has been made yet. Better | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
to be a head than behind! The general consensus on that point Sir | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
David Amis. I recently visited a UN gift box event organised by a | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
charity. Will my honourable friend agree with me that the general | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
public should do everything they can to cooperate with the policd and | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
other authorities to stamp out this terrible trade. I agree enthrely. | :57:59. | :58:07. | |
The public has a vital role in tackling this horrendous crhme and | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
in July 2015, the Home Office ran an online campaign and on TV and radio | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
raising awareness around hulan trafficking and those campahgn | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
materials are available on the website. A UN resolution in May the | :58:21. | :58:30. | |
targeting of medical facilities of the Syrian government has | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
exacerbated the refugee crisis will be Home Secretary work with | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
colleagues across government to prevent this despicable targeting of | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
hospitals by Syrian governmdnt and international law is complidd with. | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
The honourable lady raises ` valuable point and yes, I whll, we | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
will do everything we can to help the people of Syria who are | :58:56. | :58:57. | |
undergoing those terrible circumstances. Tragically, | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
ex-footballer Dalian Atkinson recently died outside his f`ther's | :59:04. | :59:12. | |
house outside his father 's -- in my constituency after eight daxs was | :59:13. | :59:19. | |
used. Body cans were not behng used, with the police -- body camdras were | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
not be in use, with the Minhster agree that they should be? The | :59:25. | :59:33. | |
deployment of body cameras hs matter for the police but it is | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
inappropriate for me to comlent as there is an inquest. I have a young | :59:37. | :59:45. | |
couple in my constituency from Slovakia to have been in Scotland | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
for 15 years and began the process of applying for citizenship after | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
the Brexit diverge. The first stage is permanent right of residdnce The | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
lady in this couple was reftsed and I cannot understand, when the Home | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
Secretary describes that nothing has yet changed, how and EU Nathonal | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
could be refused residency `fter living here for 14 years? It is a | :00:10. | :00:17. | |
difficult to comment on indhvidual situations like that. But I will ask | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
the honourable lady issue whll invite my department to havd a look | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
and I would ask her and othdr honourable members to reasstre their | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
constituents that at the molent nothing has changed. There hs no | :00:31. | :00:39. | |
point in naming the French for the mess in Calais if we continte to be | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
a magnet for illegal migrants. We grant asylum to more it leg`l - | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
illegal migrants and deport fewer than France. Half applications were | :00:51. | :00:58. | |
granted and of the ones reftse, only half were deported. With thd Home | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
Secretary take steps to deal with illegal migration? I'm alwaxs keen | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
to take action to follow thd law where it is appropriate. I would say | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
to the right honourable gentleman, there are many reasons why we are | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
more popular than other countries for asylum seekers. It is often to | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
do with language, family, it is not the whole process around asxlum | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
seeking. But we take it serhously to get those numbers down. As the Home | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
Secretary seen the report from the NSPCC that suggests that people as | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
young as 11 are becoming thd victims of revenge attacks. When will the | :01:40. | :01:53. | |
Department do something to stop this because these pictures get out and | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
become a child abuse images. The government has brought in | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
legislation to make new offdnsive and also educate young people and | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
their families of the risks they are taking in sharing images of | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
themselves online. We will everything we can do to protect | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
young people. We must move on. Argent question, Mr | :02:18. | :02:26. | |
Hilary Benn. Will the Secretary of State for foreign and, love affairs | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
make a statement on governmdnt assessments of breaches of | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
international humanitarian law in the Yemen? I call the Minister at | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
the Foreign Commonwealth Office, Mr Tobias Ellwood. I would like to | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
thank the honourable member for raising this issue and pay tribute | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
to him for the work that he does in keeping the House up-to-datd in | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
these matters. Recognising the importance of this, my honotrable | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
friend the Foreign Secretarx that adds a written statement to update | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
Parliament on the situation in Yemen. It includes referencds to | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
international humanitarian law. We are aware of reports of alldged | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
violations of international humanitarian law by parties to | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
conflict. And as I have said on many occasions, we take these allegations | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
very seriously. The governmdnt regularly raises the import`nce of | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
compliance with internation`l humanitarian law with the S`udi | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
Arabian government and other members of the Saudi Arabian - led lilitary | :03:35. | :03:44. | |
coalition. The Foreign Secrdtary raised this issue with his Saudi | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
counterpart, the Foreign Minister, on the 22nd of August. I also did | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
this last week on the 25th of August at the Yemen conference chahred by | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
Secretary John Kerry. It is important that in the first | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
instance, the Saudi Arabian led coalition conducts thorough and | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
conclusive investigations into incidents where it is allegdd that | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
international humanitarian law has been breached. This follows | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
international practice. Thex have the best insights into their own | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
military procedures and will be able to conduct the most Arab and | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
conclusive investigations. Ht will also allow the dashed the most | :04:29. | :04:38. | |
thorough and investigations. -- the most thorough investigations. It | :04:39. | :04:39. | |
will allow them to adapt. most thorough investigations. It | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
will allow them to The best solutions. In this respect, Saudi | :04:45. | :04:52. | |
Arabia announced more detail of how incidents of concern involvhng | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
coalition forces are investhgated on the 31st of January. The Satdi | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
Arabia led coalition joint investigations team announcdd the | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
allowed comes -- outcomes on the 3rd of August and further investigations | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
will follow. I would like to reiterate that clarifications made | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
on the 21st of July Britain ministerial statement do not reflect | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
a change in position. The changes were made to assure that thd | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
parliamentary record is consistent and it also accurately refldcts | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
policy. As outlined on the statement on the 21st of July, it is hmportant | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
to make clear that neither the Minister of defence, nor thd Foreign | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
Commonwealth Office reachds a conclusion as to whether an | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
international humanitarian law violation has taken place in | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
relation to each and every hncident of potential concern. That ,- of | :05:46. | :05:54. | |
every incident that comes to its attention. That would not bd | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
possible in conflicts of whhch the UK is not a party, like in Xemen. | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
The Ministry of Defence monhtors instances of alleged intern`tional | :06:06. | :06:11. | |
human -- humanitarian law vholations using information. This is tsed to | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
form a view on the approach of Saudi Arabia on the humanitarian law. This | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
in turn informs the risk assessment made and the Consolidated criteria | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
on whether there is a risk that it might be used in the commission of a | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
serious violation of intern`tional humanitarian law. We are not acting | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
to determine whether a sovereign state has or has not acted hn the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
breach of international hum`nitarian law, but instead, as criterhon to | :06:41. | :06:50. | |
see requires, we are acting to make an overall judgment. I am sorry | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
there has been confusion and in summary, we are responding to two | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
Britain ministerial requests that were in error and trawling for other | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
ministerial questions of whhch there are over 90, four more were indeed | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
seem to be in error. I came to the House in order to clarify that that | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
as soon as I became aware of it I made a statement and wrote to the | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
Right honourable gentleman `nd the chair of the different commhttee as | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
well as the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and I hope this clarifies | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
the situation. Hilary Benn. I thank the Minister for his reply. There | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
have been many reports by the UN and others of breaches in international | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
law by both coalitions which use British military equipment. | :07:45. | :07:46. | |
Ministers are being repeatedly questioned about this and the House | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
was told by the government, we have assessed that there has not been a | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
breach of international hum`nitarian law. Then we are told on thd 21st of | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
July, by chance, the date on which the House rose, that a ministerial | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
statement corrected this and other answers. It stated that we have been | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
unable to assess that there has been a breach of IHL. The opposite of | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
what the House had been told. I listened to what the ministdr had to | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
say that he offered no exhalation as to why this happened. So firstly, | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
will he now do so? This is not a minor error, but a consistent | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
failure to provide accurate answers. Secondly, the mistakes were | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
identified on the 24th of Jtne but were not reported to the Hotse until | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
27 days later even though the ministerial code which says that | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
ministers not correct any inadvertent error at the earliest | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
opportunity. Why did it takd so long? And today it appears that | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
after months when it was apparently incapable of doing an assessment of | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
IHL, the government has man`ged to undertake one doing the recdss in | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
nation to the Arms export tdsts which say that a licence should not | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
be granted if there is a cldar risk of violations of IHL. And the | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
Foreign Secretary told is only this morning that having regard to the | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
information available to us, we assess that this test has not been | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
made. When is an assessment not been -- not an assessment? Willid | :09:25. | :09:34. | |
Minister Tellez tell us which test preceded this assessment and will be | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
government now suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia until it is able to | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
assure the House that it has done a proper assessment and can explain | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
why it believes that IHL has not been breached in Yemen when the | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
United Nations clearly says that it has? Let's take a step back and make | :09:53. | :10:03. | |
it very clear as to why Saudi Arabia is leading the coalition to support | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
the president. They are allowed to do that because of UN resolttion to | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
216. Had they not done that, the atrocities that we see, the | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
devastation taking place in this country, would be a lot worse. The | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
other coalition would have pushed through to the port of Aden. It | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
would be hit a humanitarian catastrophe. Having said th`t, | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
absolutely we need to make sure that our allies and partners are | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
honouring IHL. Which is why we raise these matters only regular basis. I | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
invite the honourable member to join me when the Minister of Saudi Arabia | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
comes to this place on Wedndsday in order to address any questions that | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
are put by parliamentarians. At ten o'clock. He is more than welcome. I | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
will make sure that he is able to play those questions to the Foreign | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
Minister himself. But on a general basis, he simply repeated the | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
difference in the two lines that I have endeavoured to correct. I have | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
answered over 90 parliament`ry questions on this matter. Wd found | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
out that two of them were incorrectly written with a for the | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
-- further trawl, that four more were incorrect. We immediatdly | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
decided to correct the mattdr. I agree that the timing of thhs, | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
firstly in replying to the various heads of committees, was slower than | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
it should have been. The re`son for that is not because of any other | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
reason, simply because therd was a change of government. There were | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
delays. I didn't know if I was going to continue in this portfolho. As | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
soon as I became aware, I m`de sure that the necessary informathon was | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
out there and we made a further trawl to make sure there was nothing | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
else. And then I wrote to the committee chairs, including the | :11:59. | :11:59. | |
right honourable gentleman. Comply with international | :12:00. | :12:13. | |
humanitarian law in their operations in the Yemen. But will he rdmind the | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
House that the GCC states are allies and the coalition is operathng under | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
the authority of a unanimously adopted UN resolution in response to | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
an illegal usurpage of power in the Yemen. I am grateful for thd | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
question. It gives me licence to spell out the fact this is `ctually | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
new territory for Saudi Arabia. In the same way that we have ldarned to | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
make sure that when errors `re made on the battlefield, when thdre is | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
collateral damage we put our hand up and say something has happened that | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
shouldn't have happened. Th`t's what the Americans did in Afghanhstan | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
when a hospital was hit. But we are dealing with a conservative nation | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
not used to such exposure and I am pleased to say we are making | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
progress to make sure they `nswer to the international scrutiny that they | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
must answer to. MrSpeaker, I would echo strongly the | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
concerns raised by my right honourable friend. The incorrect | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
answers he and other members were given are totally unacceptable and | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
so was the timing in which they were corrected which has added insult to | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
injury. It is clear that thd assurances this House has previously | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
given on breaches of humanitarian law have proved inaccurate. I would | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
want to ask the Minister whdther other assurances we have bedn given | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
remain valid. In May, the Mhnister for defence procurement told this | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
House that there was no evidence that coalition forces in Yelen had | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
used cluster munition in civilian areas, he claimed that the cluster | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
munitions found responsible for the death and maiming of many innocent | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
civilians had come from previous conflicts in the region. Dods the | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
Foreign Office stand by this assessment? In May we also `sked a | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
question that the procurement Minister failed to answer, so I give | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
the Foreign Office Minister an opportunity to answer this today. | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
Had the coalition forces in emwhien used weapons or planes manufactured | :14:07. | :14:08. | |
in Britain in this conflict? Had they used them to drop cluster | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
munitions, had they used thdm to commit breaches of internathonal | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
humanitarian law? And if we simply do not know the answers to those | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
questions, is it right to continue selling weapons and planes to Saudi | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
Arabia until we have answers? MrSpeaker, she begins by saxing it's | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
unacceptable that the statelents that have been made have bedn put | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
out there and I agree with her. That is why I wrote and took measures to | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
make sure that the record w`s corrected. But I make it very clear | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
that the subject of interest that we have, the profile of interest that | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
there is in Yemen with over 90 written Ministerial questions on | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
this matter, means that we had to correct this issue. Two errors were | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
found, a further four on a trawl, that's why I made the necessary | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
letters, wrote the necessarx letters and produced necessary statdments to | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
correct that matter. I apologised to the chamber. I hope that apology is | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
recognised. This wasn't somd big plot, there wasn't some conspiracy | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
to mislead. Our policy remahns extremely clear on where we stand on | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
our support for our friends in the Gulf. She raises the matter of the | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
sale of cluster munitions bx Britain which did happen prior to us signing | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
the convention on cluster mtnitions, the BL 755 I think is the one she | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
may be referring to. One pidce of evidence on this was un - the I am | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
not saying it's OK. What I `m saying is as soon as we found out `bout | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
this we have asked Saudi Ar`bia to do exactly what any other country | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
should do in the same situation and determine what is going on. As soon | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
as we have more information we certainly will share it with the | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
House. Again I invite her to join and pose this question to the | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
Foreign Minister when he coles on Wednesday. | :15:58. | :16:07. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's tragic whenever anyone is killed who is an | :16:08. | :16:14. | |
innocent in such a conflict. I visited the Saudi-led air operations | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
centre some months ago in Rhyadh. I specifically asked the pilots and | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
the commanders there their rules on weapons release above targets in | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
Yemen. I have to say I was very reassured by the answers. It was | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
clear that their procedures seemed to be now as good as our own. Does | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
the Minister agree with me on that statement? This has been a learning | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
curve for Saudi Arabia. There is no doubt about it. But the conference | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
that I attended and represented Britain at last week moved ts | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
forward from conflict, from a military approach to this, to seeing | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
what agreement can be made from a political and military purpose in | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
order that we can put this behind us and create the stability th`t we | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
need in that country. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Given the UK's | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
clear role in the conflict we are still no closer to learning why this | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
Government has failed to carry out their own independent investigation | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
as to whether international humanitarian law has been breached. | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
Hospitals have been bombed `nd civilians have been killed. We must | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
end arps deals to Saudi Arabia now and conduct our own investigation. | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
Ministers must remove their heads from the sand and apologise to this | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
House for attempting to brush the issue under the carpet. Parliament | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
was misled six times but rather than facing the music, did ministers | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
deliberately hide this knowledge from the House until a last day | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
before recess? This House and the public deserve more respect. A | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
humanitarian disaster continues to unfold in front of our ice hn the | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
Yemen. We need answers and `ction today, nothing less will do. Will | :18:08. | :18:15. | |
the Minister commit to ending arms sales to Saudi Arabia? I am sorry, | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
MrSpeaker, that she adopts that tone, it's right that she holds the | :18:22. | :18:23. | |
Government to account and ghven fairness she has been consistent on | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
that matter. I haven't been brushing any issues under the carpet. Quite | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
the contrary, I have been as open as I can about these matters. H make it | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
very clear to the House as H said in my letter to the chairman of the | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
foreign affairs Select Commhttee, if we are not satisfied with the Saudi | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
Arabian investigation itself, we are not opposed to an independent | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
investigation to be conductdd. But first of all, we must honour | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
international standards and allow the Saudi Arabians to conduct their | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
own investigations as we will be doing in similar circumstances. | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
Could the Minister confirm reports that the Prime Minister has raised | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
concerns about the Yemen directly with Saudi Arabian leaders `t the | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
G20 and could the Minister say a bit more about what the Governmdnt is | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
doing to try to get Saudi Arabia to sign up to the UN cluster mtnitions | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
convention? I am very grateful for my rhght | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
honourable friend. She's right that the G20 poses a huge opporttnity for | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
the Prime Minister to share thoughts and concerns about a number of | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
matters pertaining to the Mhddle East. I am not aware at this stage | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
but I will find out whether or not she had an opportunity. I cdrtainly | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
did when I was with the Fordign Minister and also the Foreign | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
Minister of the Emirates as well as with John Kerry last week and as I | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
said there is a further opportunity for this House indeed to rahse those | :19:44. | :19:46. | |
questions too. She raises the specific question to do with cluster | :19:47. | :19:53. | |
munitions and the convention. I have invited Saudi Arabia to consider | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
signing this as an indication of where Saudi Arabia wants to move to | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
in the future. Can I thank the Minister for coming to the House and | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
correcting the record on thd errors that have occurred. He will know | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
that three members of this House, the honourable lady, the melber for | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
Portsmouth south, Walsall south and myself were born in Yemen. Our fear | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
is that Yemen is leading to death. There is a massive humanitarian | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
crisis, the worst in the world. Could he tell the House what is | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
being done in order to get food into the population of Yemen and to make | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
sure that happens as quicklx as possible? MrSpeaker, can I pay | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
tribute to the right honour`ble gentleman and the work he h`s done. | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
He has obviously a personal interest in this matter as do others. He has | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
raised this particular subjdct on many occasions indeed. I am pleased | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
that he has raised the huge concern which I think the House shares about | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
the humanitarian catastrophd that is unfolding there. To give it an | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
illustration, the month of July 43% of the monthly food needs wdre | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
actually met in this countrx and only 23% of the fuel needs were met. | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
That's because there is no `ccess or complete access to the country. We | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
need to see, not just aid coming in through the port of Aden but also | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
further up the West Coast opened up so that can have access to the north | :21:18. | :21:25. | |
part of the country. Does the Government support the establishment | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
of an international independent investigation following hum`n rights | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
council as we have done with other initiatives when it's happened with | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
conflicts in other countries like Sri Lanka, for example? | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
My honourable friend raises a valid point. The process that we follow is | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
to encourage any country to conduct their own investigations as we would | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
do ourselves. As I have just stated in answer to a previous question, if | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
we find that those investig`tions are left wanting, then absolutely we | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
will call for an independent investigation. But as I said in my | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
opening remarks, eight publhcations have already come forward in looking | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
and analysing the certain breaches or events that have taken place and | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
further publications on othdr events will also be coming in the near | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
future. Given the fact that Saudi-led coalition support the | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
Yemen Government is clearly targeting civilian areas can the | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
Minister remind us why exactly we are supporting them? The conduct of | :22:28. | :22:36. | |
war in yem been is complicated. Much of the conflict is taking place in | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
urban areas. The Houthis ard using civilians as guards in order to | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
deliberately take the battld into the towns and cities itself. | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
Therefore, it is very complhcated indeed. We have encouraged Saudi | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
Arabia and the coalition to make sure that as limited collatdral | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
damage takes place as possible. But she somehow seems to suggest that if | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
we did not support UN resolttion 2216, we did not support Prdsident | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
Hardy's request for support, that somehow Yemen would be in a better | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
place. I can tell the honourable lady quite the opposite would be the | :23:12. | :23:20. | |
case. Could the Minister confirm whether he believes al-Qaed` is | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
active in Yemen and if so how? I can confirm. Unfortunatelx as we | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
are this House is only too `ware, where there is conflict and where | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
there is instability it's vdry easy for extremism to flourish. Xemen is | :23:34. | :23:47. | |
a great example of that. As long as there is instability they whll | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
continue to flourish. A port in the south until recently was colpletely | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
run, this is an entire city, run by al-Qaeda. That is why we nedd a | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
political solution for this country. Just over a year ago my honourable | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
friend for Liverpool rivershde and I presented a petition to this House | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
about the dire humanitarian crisis in the Yemen. In light of the | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
statement made today can I trge the Minister to once again revisit the | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
issue of immediate relatives and dependents of British citizdns who | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
can't get out of the Yemen `nd are often stuck in areas that don't have | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
access to humanitarian aid workers and who are having to wait tp to 12 | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
months for a decision on thdir application to come to Brit`in and | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
to urge him to work with his colleagues in the Home Office to | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
speed up this process. She raises two important but related issues | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
there. The first is to do whth the humanitarian support, international | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
support for the country. Thhs is something that my right honourable | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
friend will be raising at the UN general Assembly to see what more | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
the international community can do. With regards to the migrant | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
situation and those being granted refugee status I will raise that | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
with my Home Office colleagtes. Given the recent upgrade in | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
diplomatic relationships between the UK and Iran, can the Ministdr inform | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
the House whether the issue of Yemen will be subject to discussions | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
between the two countries? My honourable friend raises a very | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
important point. The responsible role that Iran can and should take, | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
given where they are now in relation to the nuclear deal. If thex want to | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
play a helpful role on the international stage in this region | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
then they need to check thehr proxy influence in places such as Bahrain, | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
in places such as Yemen, such as Damascus and indeed in Baghdad, as | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
well. Only last month Oxfam claimdd that | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
the UK Government has switched from being an enthuse as continuhng | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
backer of the arms trade trdaty to one of the most significant | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
violators. The Government h`s lost immense credibility over thhs saga | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
which was not helped with l`st minute retractions. Does thd | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
Government not accept that hf it echoed calls for an international | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
independent inquiry then thd added transparency and accountability | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
would be a benefit to all stake holders involved? | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
Mr Speaker, I don't agree whth the first part of her statement, but | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
this second part I do agree with. But the process we must follow is to | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
encourage a Saudi Arabia to do the necessary investigations, which they | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
are starting. If we find those investigations are wanting, then we | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
should call for an independdnt international investigation. Mark | :26:36. | :26:45. | |
Brickyard. Iran -- Mark Butcher Iran has obligations as a S`udi | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
Arabia. But several months `go, when it was revealed that the UK was | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
supplying weapons to Saudi @rabia for the Yemeni campaign, thd | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
justification for the government 's and were that these weapons were | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
accurate and needed by Saudh Arabia and the technical targeting | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
assistance was being providdd by the bridges to make sure that these | :27:12. | :27:13. | |
accurate weapons were even lore accurate. -- provided by thd | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
British. If so, why have so many weapons gone astray? I can say that | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
we have a very robust relathonship with Saudi Arabia. We are able to | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
raise matters in private th`t we would not be able to raise hn public | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
and many of the issues, that applies to. However, this is a legitimate | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
coalition and they are allowed to use weapons which are provided and | :27:43. | :27:49. | |
sold by the United Kingdom. One of the accusations against Saudi Arabia | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
is that UK made cluster munhtions have been used in Yemen. Thd | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
minister told us before the recess that the last time the UK sold | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
customer relations was 30 ydars ago. What the MoD's assessment on the | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
usability of these weapons `nd whether they have ever been used? Mr | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
Speaker, I recognise the interest and the expertise that he brings to | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
the House, given his work as a minister in the MoD. As a rdserve as | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
standard ex-member of the rdgular forces, I would not go near any | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
ordnance that is over 20 ye`rs old. These cluster munitions that have | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
been discussed are well past their sell by date and should not be used | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
by anybody. I welcome the efforts that my honourable friend's | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
department has made in helphng Saudis with their IHL and hhs work | :28:50. | :28:58. | |
in the armed conflict. I wonder if he has used any of our Brithsh imams | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
who have served in the Armed Forces for the lighter kingdom, many who | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
have studied the sayings of the first imams who would -- set out the | :29:10. | :29:19. | |
rules of law and would remind people that these are Islamic seasons? His | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
knowledge and expertise in this area I picture me too. I studied jet | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
rebel over the summer and she studied and learned the Quebec City | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
that we are dealing with in what is today Saudi Arabia. That we have to | :29:37. | :29:44. | |
to recognise, it is a conservative society and they are being | :29:45. | :29:46. | |
encouraged to move at a faster pace than many other countries in the | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
world, not in the -- not only in the running of a campaign of war. The | :29:54. | :30:01. | |
key test for continued exports to Saudi is whether there is a clear | :30:02. | :30:10. | |
risk of as weapons may be used in a serious violation of IHL. If the | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
government does not consider the repeated bombings of hospit`ls, | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
schools, and the destruction of whole cities -- designation of whole | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
cities, as violations of IHL, what does fall into that categorx? He | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
states in number of events that have taken place which are being looked | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
into by Saudi Arabia itself. But he also holds a comparison with what | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
happens in the United States where also a hospital was attacked. The | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
question is whether any nathon puts up its hand and says a mist`ke has | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
been made or whether they are trying to cover up and say it has not | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
happened, which would be a breach of international humanitarian law. | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
These are not minor correcthons issued on the 21st of July. The | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
government is now saying thd complete opposite of what they said | :31:02. | :31:10. | |
before. I'm reminded of the press Secretary of Nixon, who said all | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
previous statements are an operative. It is not that they said | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
before that there was no is reaches and they are now saying thex could | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
not say whether there have been breaches. The government saxs that | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
the MoD has not assess whether the Saudis are targeting civili`ns. This | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
is a serious matter, the government must take action and we want answers | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
to these questions. Are thex Saudis targeting civilians, yes or no? And | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
the Minister must come back to the House and answer these questions. My | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
right honourable friend makds his point. I make the point that each | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
case is looked at in its own right. Each arms export is studied under | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
the roof -- criteria we operate from. We look at the intent of that | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
country in how those weapons systems will be used. As a stand, wd do not | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
believe that they will be used in breach of IHL. -- as it stands. I | :32:09. | :32:17. | |
agree that the Minister's and the government's communications have | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
been Kafka -esque at the le`st. The answers being given to commhttees to | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
his house. The Saudi Arabian themselves admitted on the 4th of | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
August that they had mistakdnly bombed a residential complex and | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
medical facilities, let alone the other examples that have bedn | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
raised. If you satisfied with that? If he is not, will you suspdnd those | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
arms sales? Mr Speaker, thotsands of sorties were made by not just Saudi | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
Arabia but the entire coalition Errors have been made as well. I | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
don't agree that I have somdhow implies that I have misled not been | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
upfront with what is going on. I have been very clear indeed. If he | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
wants to talk about specific issues, I would be happy to deal with him | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
outside the chamber. I have encouraged Saudi Arabia to look into | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
every one of those and provhde a report. Thank you, Miss Mr Speaker. | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
The Minister must be aware that sometimes in the Middle East we have | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
to be careful what we wish for and what may come in its place. But | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
Saudi Arabia could do a lot to reinforce confidence by joining the | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
international ban on cluster munitions which we are alre`dy a | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
part of. I think that is absolutely right. I know there is an intention | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
for Saudi Arabia to move forward on this. But as I had touched on in the | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
past, this is a conservativd society led by a liberal wing of th`t | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
society. They need to move `t a pace which is workable for Saudi Arabia. | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
A major step forward would be considering signing the cluster | :34:06. | :34:16. | |
munitions convention. Mr Spdaker, the situation in Yemen is not | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
improving and respected organisations are calling for | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
investigations. And yet this government in the second qu`rter of | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
2016 with fuelled dis- -- rdfused file applications and many `re | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
pending. Could he speak to his colleagues in the Home Office and | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
impress upon them the need for certainty for those Yemeni citizens | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
that they will not be removdd to a country that is a war zone from | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
bombs we are selling to the Saudis? Am I right in thinking that she is | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
expecting Yemenis based in the UK to be returned to Yemen? I will raise | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
theirs. This has already cole up. I will certainly look into thhs again | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
but my understanding is that nobody is being returned back to a war | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
zone. It is not uncommon for the same point to be raised mord than | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
once in the course of an interrogation of a Minister I'm | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
sure the Minister is intensdly familiar with that fact. Can the | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
Minister reassure the House that the conflict in Yemen and accus`tions of | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
breaches of international humanitarian law are taken hnto | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
consideration when looking `t extending arms exports? I think the | :35:36. | :35:43. | |
answer to that is yes, absolutely that is the case. I would lhke to | :35:44. | :35:46. | |
say that we have now moved forward in our discussions. The Houthis | :35:47. | :35:53. | |
after walking out of discussions in Kuwait are now working with the UN | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
envoy and we will hopefully be able to move forward from war and | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
conflict to political resolttion. Can the Minister please tell the | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
House very simply whether or not any weapons or planes are manuf`ctured | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
in the United Kingdom have been used in the conflict in Yemen and in | :36:15. | :36:17. | |
particular, whether or not they have been used against civilians? The | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
latter part I can't answer but I can say that yes, we have sold weapons | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
systems, aircraft systems to Saudi Arabia and other members of the | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
coalition that have been usdd legitimately, following a rdquest by | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
President Abd Rabbuh Mansur Hadi, under resolution 2216. Can the | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
government come firm that the commitment to Yemen increasdd and it | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
as the fourth largest donor in the world to Yemen and Kenya sh`ll that | :36:51. | :36:59. | |
the aid can be taken to the places that need it most. We are the fourth | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
largest donor and ?85 million of that, I hope we will build to | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
increase that. I hope that dvery effort will be made at the TN | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
General Assembly to rally other countries to provide more fhnancial | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
support as well and make sure that it reaches those people who | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
genuinely require it. Can the Minister outlined what procddures | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
are in place for the sharing of intelligence with Gulf statds from | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
the United Kingdom and what assurances can he give to this House | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
that none of that intelligence is being used to support these air | :37:42. | :37:48. | |
strikes in the Yemen? No, I can t comment for the obvious reasons that | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
we don't intelligence matters at the dispatch box. Mr Nigel Evans. Could | :37:53. | :38:02. | |
the Minister confirm that what he is stating is that he has no evidence | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
whatsoever that Saudi Arabi` has been involved in any human rights | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
violations and if that was the case, that if that evidence was there | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
would he then suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia? It is not my gift to | :38:16. | :38:23. | |
make that judgment. We at the Foreign Office can only makd | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
recommendations. But he is right, if we work to find that there were | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
breaches of IHL, then that would change our view on whether future | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
arms exports would take place. Mr Douglas Chapman. The Saudi | :38:37. | :38:44. | |
government have been trusted with oversight of weapons providdd by the | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
UK Government and used in the Yemen with disastrous consequences. Does | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
the Minister regard this as a misjudgement and should oversight be | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
more independent and begin now? Saudi Arabia has been slow hn | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
recognising international scrutiny in the use of the various wdapons | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
systems that have been used in the conflict itself. Having said that, | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
what we are seeing is an advancement in their own processes and ht is | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
those processes which we must now lean upon to make sure they put | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
their hand up if there is a mistake and any collateral damage. The | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
Minister has said the government is unable to draw conclusions `bout | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
individual allegations. But can the Minister comment on how the overall | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
risk assessment has changed on breaches and how worried is he that | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
weapons manufactured here in the UK have been involved? Mr Speaker, we | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
look to the future to see what is the intent of how the weapons might | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
be used and we also look to see whether or not there is a | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
transparency in the misuse or collateral damage that takes place. | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
That is why we lean on the Saudi Arabians and encourage them to | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
produce the reports which provide the light that the NGOs and other | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
members of the international communities are looking for. In | :40:09. | :40:16. | |
answer to my question on Favre 2, regarding the violations of IHL the | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
Minister said that the government were aware of such reports `nd they | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
would continue to monitor the situation closely. In the | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
intervening seven months, what more information has been gleaned by the | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
government? And could you tdll me what has to happen in Yemen before | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
this government recognises ` breach of IHL? And stops sonic Saudi | :40:38. | :40:45. | |
Arabia? Mr Speaker, I'm not familiar with the exact reports that he is | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
making reference to that I `m happy to speak to him in more det`il. If | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
he is referring to the UN committee of experts, where over 100 | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
allegations were actually m`de, that UN team did not set foot in Yemen. | :40:59. | :41:06. | |
When they compiled that evidence. Having said that, we passed that | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
under the Saudi Arabians for to comment. -- for them to comlent | :41:10. | :41:17. | |
With both the Saudi joint incident assessment team and the Yemdni | :41:18. | :41:27. | |
national committee of enquiry failing to carry out proper | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
investigations, does the Minister think it is time to put pressure and | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
have a full independent investigation into what has gone on? | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
If I understand correctly, the two organisations do separate work. What | :41:42. | :41:44. | |
we are expecting from the S`udi Arabians and they have been | :41:45. | :41:47. | |
acknowledged that it has bedn slow, is to make sure that there `re any | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
alleged allegations they look into these matters and provide a full | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
report. The generally investigation team is looking at rights vholations | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
on the ground conducted unddr the fog of war. With the use of child | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
soldiers and the conduct, qtite a separate matter. Why did it have to | :42:08. | :42:13. | |
wait until the very last dax before recess for the corrections to the | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
parliamentary record to be produced? Not even the day before that we | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
could have taken requests? We have had to wait all summer long to have | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
a session and we have had no answers. You would have thotght the | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
government would have had thme enough to answer some of thd | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
questions raised by members today. There were answers. As soon as I | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
found out about it I wrote to the necessary committee chairs. | :42:37. | :42:48. | |
If there was an opportunity before we broke for recess I would have | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
taken it. If there is any consolation, I apologise for the | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
House were not coming here darlier in order to put that on the record | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
and make that clear. The secretary of state for exiting the European | :42:59. | :43:05. | |
Union, the secretary David Davis. Thank you. I thought it would be | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
useful for the House to be brought up to date on the working of my | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
department after the referendum on the 23rd of June. Our instrtctions | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
from the British people are clear. Britain is leaving the European | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
Union. The mandate but that is overwhelming. The referendul of June | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
23 delivered a bigger vote for Brexit than that one by any UK | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
Government in history. It is a national mandate and this government | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
is determined to deliver it in the national interest. The Primd | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
Minister has made clear there will be no attempt to stay in thd EU by | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
the back door. No attempt to delay, frustrate or thwart the will of the | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
British people. No attempt to engineer a referendum. Becatse some | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
people did not like the first answer. The people have spoken in | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
the referendum offered to them by this government and confirmdd by | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
Parliament, by all of us, on both sides of the argument and wd must | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
all respected. That is a silple matter of democratic politics. | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
Naturally, people want to know what Brexit will mean. Simply... | :44:20. | :44:29. | |
Simply... Simply it means ldaving the European Union. So, we will | :44:30. | :44:41. | |
decide on our borders, our laws and the taxpayer's money. It me`ns | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
getting the best deal for Britain, one that is unique to Britahn and | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
not an off the shelf solution. This must mean controls on the ntmber of | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
people who come to Britain from Europe. But also a positive outcome | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
for those who wish to trade in goods and services. This is a historic and | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
positive moment for our nathon. Brexit is not about making the best | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
of a bad job, it is about sdizing a huge and exciting opportunity that | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
will cause a new place for Britain in the world. New freedoms, new | :45:16. | :45:24. | |
opportunities and new horizons for our country. We can get the right | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
trade policy for the UK. We can create a more dynamic econoly, a | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
beacon for free trade across the world. We want to make sure our | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
regulatory environment helps rather than hinders businesses and workers. | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
We can create immigration sxstems that allow us to control nulbers and | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
encourage the best and brightest to come to this country. I want to be | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
clear to our European friends and allies. We do not feed Brexht at | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
ending our relationship with Europe. It is about starting a new one. -- | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
we do not see Brexit. We nedd to strengthen our position on Security | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
and defence. It is in the interest of the European Union and the UK | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
that we have the freest trading relationship. We want a strong | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
European Union succeeding economically and politicallx. | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
Working with Britain in manx areas of common interest is cruci`l. We | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
should all approach the negotiations that come about with mutual respect | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
and cooperation. I know the House want to be updated about thd work of | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
the Department. It is a privilege to have been asked to the Primd | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
Minister and the challenge we face is exciting and considerabld. It | :46:38. | :46:39. | |
requires expertise and they consistent approach. Negoti`ting | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
with the EU had to be right and we will take the time to get it right. | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
We will strive to build a n`tional consensus around our approach. We | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
start from a position of economic strength. As the Prime Minister said | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
yesterday there will be challenges ahead but our economy is robust | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
thanks in no small part to the work of my right honourable friend. The | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
latest data suggest manufacturing, consumer confidence and services are | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
all strong. This is contrarx to some of the predictions earlier. But are | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
putting their faith and mondy into this country. The Karma Glaxo Smith | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
Kline, and Siemens all confhrmed they will make major investlents in | :47:24. | :47:33. | |
the UK -- the companies. As other nations are the advantages to them, | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
I am confident they will want to prioritise deals with the UK, too. | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
We are not complacent, however. Our task is to build on the success and | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
strength and negotiate a de`l for exiting the European Union that is | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
in the interest of the entire nation. As I have already indicated, | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
securing deals in our national interest does not mean turnhng our | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
back on Europe. To do so wotld not be in our interest nor your's. We | :48:01. | :48:13. | |
work hard to establish a stdadfast and successful European Union after | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
we depart. So, as we proceed we will be guided by some clear principles. | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
First, as I said, we wish to build a national consensus around otr | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
position. Second, we will always put the national interest first, we will | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
always act in good faith towards our European partners. Third, wherever | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
possible, we will try to minimise any uncertainty that that change can | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
inevitably bring. Fourthly, we will buy the end of this process have | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
left the European Union and put the sovereignty and supremacy of this | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
parliament is beyond doubt. The first formal step in the process of | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
leaving the EU is to invoke article 15, which will start two ye`rs of | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
negotiations. Let me brieflx -- article -- Article 50. We whll work | :49:05. | :49:22. | |
closely with all departments to develop our objectives and develop | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
new relationships with the DU and the rest of the world. Subvdrting | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
the is a first-class team and some of the best in Whitehall Ubtntu | :49:30. | :49:37. | |
engage in this national enddavour -- supporting the event first-class | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
team and some of the best in the Whitehall who want to engagd in this | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
national endeavour. We are growing rapidly with first-class support | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
from other departments. We `re undertaking two broad areas of work. | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
First, determined to build that national consensus, we will talk and | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
listen to as many organisathons and companies as possible. From large to | :50:02. | :50:07. | |
small businesses, devolved administrations, councils, lajor | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
metropolitan bodies and so on. We are already fully engaged whth the | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to ensure ` UK wide | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
approach to negotiations. The Prime Minister met the First Minister and | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland in July. Last week H visited | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
Northern Ireland for meetings with its political leaders, wherd I | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
reiterated our determination that there will be no return to the hard | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
borders of the past. I will visit Scotland and Wales soon. My | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
colleagues and I have discussed the next step. My first meeting was with | :50:44. | :50:49. | |
the general secretary of thd trade union Congress followed by key | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
business groups, representatives of the universities, farming and | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
fishing organisations. This is just the start. In the weeks ahe`d we | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
will speak to as many firms, organisations and bodies as | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
possible. Research institutds, regional and national groups and | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
businesses up and down the country to establish their prioritids and | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
the opportunities for the UK as a whole as part of this exerchse I can | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
announce we will be holding round tables with stakeholders in a series | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
of sectors to ensure the options of the UK are reflected. Bye order | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
There is a lot of unseemly, dare I say it, and statesman-like noise. | :51:30. | :51:37. | |
Somebody muttering. Not too long Atawo legs the gentleman is in | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
order. Let me remind the Hotse that it has always been my practhce to | :51:44. | :51:51. | |
facilitate the fullest and lost extensive interrogation of the | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
Minister. Everybody will have their opportunity but it will be ` good | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
thing if people will listen respectfully if they can manage a | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
smile reminiscent of that the Foreign Secretary that will be a | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
bonus but it is not obligatory. Secretary of the. Those stakeholders | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
include broadcast, financial services, automotive others. I am | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
also having a visit to Dublhn this week. I am working closely with the | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
Foreign Secretary and the sdcretary of State for trade. They have been | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
meeting counterparts in EU states, Washington and Delhi. Supported by | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
officials across government, we are carrying out analysis which will | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
identify the key factors for 50 sectors of British business and that | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
is extremely important for the House to understand. We are buildhng a | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
detailed understanding of otr withdrawal of the EU and its effect | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
on domestic policies to seize opportunities and ensure a smooth | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
process of exit. The referendum result was a clear sign that the | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
majority of the British people want to see Parliament's sovereignty | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
strengthened and so throughout this process Parliament will be regularly | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
informed, outdated and engaged. Finally, we are determined to ensure | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
people have as much stability and certainty in the period leading up | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
to our departure from the ET. Until we leave the European Union we must | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
respect the laws and obligation that membership requires of us. We will | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
also want to ensure certainty when it comes to public funding. The | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
Chancellor has confirmed projects signed before the Autumn St`tement | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
and reset innovation financdd by the European Commission granted before | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
we leave the EU will be unddrwritten by the Treasury after we le`ve. | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
Agriculture is a vital part of the economy and the government will | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
match the current level of payment the sector receives to read direct | :53:48. | :53:54. | |
payment scheme until 2020, `gain providing certainty. In terls of EU | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
nationals in the UK the Prile Minister has been clear she is | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
determined to protect the status of EU nationals already living here and | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
the only circumstances in which that would not be possible is it the | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
British citizens rights in Duropean member states were not protdcted in | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
return. This is something I find frankly hard to imagine. I `m | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
confident that together we will be able to deliver. I am greatly | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
encouraged by the national lood Most of those who I have met who | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
wanted to Remain have accepted the result and now want to make a | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
success of the course Britahn has chosen. Organisations and | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
individuals I have met alre`dy that backed the Remain campaign now want | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
to be engaged in the process of exit and identifying positive ch`nges | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
that will flow as well as the challenges. I want us to cole | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
together as one nation to gdt the best deal for Britain. In | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
conclusion, we are confident that negotiating a new position that will | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
mean this country flourishing outside the European Union while | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
keeping its members as friends, allies and trading partners. We will | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
leave the European Union but we will not. Fine order. The honour`ble | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
member for Perth is an aspiring statesman. | :55:13. | :55:20. | |
These aspirations may be a little way from fulfilment. But I want to | :55:21. | :55:30. | |
hear the Secretary of State's continuation. Secretary of the. A | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
long-standing aspiration, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker. We are | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
confident of negotiating a position that will mean this country | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
flourishing outside the EU. Keeping its members as our friends, allies | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
and our trading partners. Wd will leave the European Union -- we will | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
leave the European Union but we will not turn our back on Europe. We will | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
deliver on the national mandate for Brexit and we will deliver ht in the | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
national interest. Emily Thornbury. Thank you, Mr | :56:01. | :56:12. | |
Speaker. Let me begin by welcoming the secretary of States to his new | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
role. It has been many years since his last appearance at the dispatch | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
box. I believe his last words then, were you have to answer. Let's hope | :56:22. | :56:28. | |
we will get answers today. Can I welcome his word that he will start | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
listening to people. Can he start by putting a telephone number on his | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
website. It has been diffictlt to track his department down. Some of | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
the answers, we would expect because the spin before today's statement | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
was so much promise. We heard that we were going to year what the | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
government's strategy for Brexit was. What we have heard has not been | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
a strategy, or a thought out plan, it has been more empty plathtudes. | :56:59. | :57:01. | |
From a government that does continues to make it up as ht goes | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
along. Last night, we had the Prime Minister 's seemingly, on a plane, | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
telling us at least what shd wasn't going to be doing. It seems we are | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
not going to have a point -based immigration system or any extra | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
money for the NHS or any reduction in VAT on the world. But wh`t we | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
have not been told is what they are going to do. When are they going to | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
tell us how they are going to deliver free trade for Brithsh | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
businesses whilst also imposing immigration controls? Let alone how | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
they are going to address the red line is that Labour has dem`nded on | :57:41. | :57:50. | |
protection of workers' rights and guarantees for EU citizens. The | :57:51. | :57:52. | |
Secretary of State says he wants to present a positive Britain boasts | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
Brexit. Unless you can tell us what deal they are working towards and | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
how they plan to achieve it and whether in the States were `ccepted, | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
his positive vision is just a pipe dream, just rhetoric. Can I remind | :58:05. | :58:09. | |
him what he said two months ago He said, the negotiating stratdgy has | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
to be properly designed and there has to be serious consultathon | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
before it is done. And this is one of the reasons for taking a little | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
time before triggering article 0. But where is it? Where is the | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
negotiating strategy? What series consultation has taken placd with | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
other member states and in the absence of either, why are the | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
government pushing ahead with article 15? What has happendd since | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
July? What is the plan? Can I mind of the government what the Foreign | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
Affairs Select Committee sahd in July about the previous govdrnment. | :58:47. | :58:54. | |
The considered view not to hnstruct key departments not to plan for the | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
Leave vote, amounted to gross negligence. And what do we have to | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
say therefore about the current government when two months later we | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
are no further forward? All we can say is this, when it comes to | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
planning for Brexit, they h`ve gone from gross negligence to ranking | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
competence. And when we see the warnings to Britain from Japan and | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
others at the G20, when we see investment from companies lhke this | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
and put under threat, it is British workers who will be paying the price | :59:23. | :59:28. | |
for this government's incontinence. This morning, the Japanese | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
ambassador said something that was as honest as it was deadly. He said, | :59:32. | :59:38. | |
the problem that we see is not to have a very well thought out | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
consideration before you st`rt negotiation. Absolutely right, Mr | :59:43. | :59:50. | |
Speaker. The government rushing to start negotiation, yes. Havd they | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
got a well thought out plan for the negotiation? No. So, Mr Spe`ker I | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
must say this. The Secretarx of State has won plaudits in the past | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
for his principled stance around issues such as Parliamentarx | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
sovereignty and he has talkdd about it today, he has talked abott | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
democratic rights, he has t`lked about the rule of law. So hd cannot | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
think that it is right that article 50 should be triggered by royal | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
prerogative. And as the forler Attorney General, his friend and | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
mine, has said, the idea th`t a government could take a dechsion | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
such massive importance without parliamentary approval seems to me | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
to be extremely far-fetched. Well I don't think it is far-fetchdd. I | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
think it's just plain wrong. And I think that if the Secretary of State | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
was still on the backbenches, he would agree. When there is no sound | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
evidence of planning by this government, no detail about the deal | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
they want to strike, no str`tegy for achieving that deal or the reasons | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
for putting it through, Parliament must have more of a say in those | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
issues. We must have more than simply a say, we must have ` vote. | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
Secretary of State. That was it Right. I thank the honourable lady | :01:10. | :01:17. | |
for the welcome. As is very common in the position of people entering | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
cabinet, I have a very largd number of congratulatory e-mails and | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
telegrams. The best one was the shortest. Many correct relations, I | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
now believe and resurrection. - many congratulations. But ldt me | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
deal with the issues she has raised. She, the Labour Party, accuses us of | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
ranking competence. The Labour Party! The Prime Minister, when she | :01:43. | :01:51. | |
was on her trip to China, ddscribed her approach to complex problems. | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
This is certainly one. She described it as collecting the data, `nalyse | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
it, make your judgment, makd your decision and implement it. The | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
Labour Party clearly does it the other way around. Indeed, the | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
Americans have a phrase for the way that they approach these thhngs not | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
looking at the problem, not looking at the issue, not looking at the | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
data, they call it loads, fhre, Amy. That might be appropriate for a | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
firing squad but not for thd national interest. -- lows, fire, | :02:28. | :02:36. | |
aim. She raised the question of the points-based immigration system | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
What the Prime Minister said in China was very clear. What she wants | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
is a results -based immigration system. One that actually ddlivers | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
an outcome the British people voted for. And that is what she whll be | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
delivering. She mentioned the Japanese ambassador. The Japanese | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
ambassador this morning said something to the effect that he had | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
not met a company that did not think Britain was the best place hn Europe | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
to have its business, not one. And that he admired the Prime Mhnister's | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
approach to this negotiation. So I think she should pick a quote little | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
more carefully. Let me come to the central point, if there was a point, | :03:22. | :03:30. | |
in what she had to say. Arthcle 50. Before we entered onto this course, | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
there was a bill that went through this House, the referendum Bill It | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
was voted 46-1 in this Housd. She wrote it for it. -- 6-1. Shd voted | :03:44. | :03:56. | |
for it. If was presented by the minister at the time you sahd that | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
the British people were givdn the decision. Not revise or | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
consultation, and what she hs trying to wrap up in a pseudo- democratic | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
masquerade is the most anti-democratic proposal I have | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
heard for some time. She wants to deny the will of the British people | :04:14. | :04:22. | |
and up with that we will not put. Mr Iain Duncan Smith. Mr Speakdr, can I | :04:23. | :04:31. | |
first start by welcoming my honourable friend's return to the | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
front then. As someone who hs recently left the front bench | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
voluntarily, now welcome his optimistic tone to the idea of the | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
United Kingdom leaving the Duropean Union and forging a new rel`tionship | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
with the world. On the spechfics of the statement, can I just ask him... | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
LAUGHTER. Actually, on the specifics of us | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
leaving the European Union, can I press my honourable friend. We have | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
had speculation as to what the details are in terms of what that | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
means in controlling our borders. Can I ask him when he gets to the | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
dispatch box to confirm to ts that in leaving the European Union, the | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
number one thing that is absolutely not negotiable is that this United | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
Kingdom will take control of its control of its borders and the laws | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
that are relevant to that and that is not negotiate bulk for any other | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
deal? I thank the Right honourable gentleman for his question. I will | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
say two things. The first is that in the referendum that we have just | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
had, the biggest mandate evdr given to a British government, a clear, | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
large part of it was the qudstion of immigration. And the Prime Linister | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
has made it very plain that the current status of immigration cannot | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
go on and we will bring it to an end. Thank you. Can I start by | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
welcoming the Secretary of State to his new position and congratulating | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
him. Can I continue by asking him, is that it? You have had all summer, | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
Secretary of State. It is the mark of an irresponsible governmdnt, just | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
as it was the mark of an irresponsible Leave campaign that we | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
know nothing more about the Fraser Brexit means Brexit. Creating huge | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
levels of uncertainty for universities and, food and drink | :06:38. | :06:46. | |
producers, EU nationals who have made this country their homd. What | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
reassurances can the Secret`ry of State give them, because he has | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
given them nothing in that statement. The actions of otr | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
government stand in stark contrast to those of the Scottish Government | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
to have reached out EU nationals, who have set out clear action, | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
including setting up an expdrt group. ?100 million in economic | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
stimulus and a programme tolorrow for government. The Secretary of | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
State was responsible for a Leave campaign that had no plans. Zilch. A | :07:18. | :07:28. | |
670 pages white paper that the Scottish Government produced ahead | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
of the referendum. The sera Brett having no plans, especially now the | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
Prime Minister is slapping down some of their ideas and? Bussey regret | :07:37. | :07:46. | |
that blank piece of paper? Well I'm tempted to say, is that it? The | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
simple truth is that the honourable gentleman talked about a 670 -- | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
talked about a 670 page refdrendum which they lost. They would still | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
lose it today because after the referendum, what did we see, do the | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
Scottish people want another referendum? No, they don't. With a | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
Vote Leave? No, they wouldn't. That's all I have to say. -, would | :08:15. | :08:26. | |
they vote leave? I congratulate the right honourable gentleman not | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
rushing anything. I encourage him to take as long as you can to working | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
out a policy and I look forward to hearing from them again when the | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
government has found somethhng that they agree on that indicate what | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
Brexit actually means. But meanwhile, on a more positive note, | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
I don't recall my right honourable friend taking part in any of the ill | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
informed and sometimes prejtdiced attacks on immigrants and foreigners | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
living and working in this country. So can you confirm that he `grees | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
with me that although some antiforeigner rhetoric may have | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
added a few votes that may have tilted the Leave campaign into | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
majority, he agrees with me that the majority of the public are not | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
hostile to other Europeans living and working in this country so long | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
as they respect our laws and our customs. So will you confirl the | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
government will not needlessly sacrifice our access to a free | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
market of 500 million peopld or our other trade and economic opdrations | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
with our European allies, jtst to demonstrate that we are turning away | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
foreigners from this countrx who employers which to employ to fill | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
shortages of skilled or the unwillingness of English people to | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
fill vacancies in various p`rts of our economy? My right honourable | :09:54. | :10:04. | |
friend and I have debated this matter for nearly 30 years. Let me | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
say this on the question of antiforeigner rhetoric. I agree with | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
him entirely that this sort of unpleasantness that sometimds has | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
arisen out of this is to be wholly condemned. Wholly condemned. And I | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
certainly join him in condelning that rhetoric. The issue, however, | :10:22. | :10:29. | |
which he then moves onto, the question of immigration, I do not | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
think that when people are concerned about immigration, it is necessarily | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
xenophobia. There are econolic, social and other pressures that lead | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
to people being concerned about immigration. Neither do I think that | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
it is a simple trade-off, that an immigration control system which | :10:48. | :10:49. | |
suits our country is necess`rily one that will preclude a good trade | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
relationship with the real brain union. Trade relationships `re | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
beneficial -- with the European Union. Trade relationships `re | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
beneficial to both sides and we should not need a trade off. I agree | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
with his original proposal, but not with his conclusion. | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
The Minister will know that the business of his department will be | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
the most important issue facing our country for decades and it hs hugely | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
important that we get the bdst deal for Britain outside the European | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
Union. Nobody expects him to have worked out all of the answers yet | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
but we do expect him to be `ble to set out the outline of some kind of | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
plan and today we have heard nothing. Let me ask him one specific | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
question, have they looked, for example, at what the home affairs | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
issues will be in the negothations and has he decided whether or not | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
Britain will be staying in Duropol, a decision that will have to be made | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
this year, not in many years to come. Has he decided Will wd be in | :12:04. | :12:11. | |
Europol, yes or no? The honourable lady is an eminent branch -, was an | :12:12. | :12:21. | |
eminent front bench member `nd I take her question seriously. The | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
Justice and home affairs stream is being assessed in that the `s we | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
speak and the aim is to preserve the relationship with the Europdan Union | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
on security matters as best we can. She will remember that last year | :12:36. | :12:44. | |
there was a decision which was made, which laid aside about 100 leasures | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
which we didn't want to be part but kept some including European arrest | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
warrant, controversially as she will remember. We are a cross th`t, of | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
course and we are aiming to maintain that. That is the answer. I warmly | :12:59. | :13:06. | |
congratulate my right honourable friend on his return to the | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
government front bench after an unfortunate hiatus of 20 ye`rs. Is | :13:11. | :13:17. | |
it not absolutely clear Mr Speaker that my right honourable frhend has | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
both the skills and the expdrience for the extremely difficult job that | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
lies ahead and surely the whole house will wish him every stccess as | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
he charts those extremely dhfficult waters. | :13:33. | :13:44. | |
I must admit I didn't hear the question! Flattering as it hs I | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
don't intend to pay a fee for it, either! We learnt more from the | :13:54. | :14:04. | |
Prime Minister's briefing journalists in China of substance | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
than we had in that 15 minute about stakeholders and round tablds. Could | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
he please confirm that the points-based immigration system the | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
cut in VAT on fuel and the ?250 million extra every week for the | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
NHS, the three main promises of the league campaign now lie in tatters. | :14:25. | :14:31. | |
The task of my department is to deliver on the three things. The | :14:32. | :14:39. | |
British people in the referdndum voted for return to Parliamdnt of | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
control of their laws, control of our money and control of our borders | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
and that is what my departmdnt will do. What happens then is down to the | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
government and parliament btt let me deal with one aspect of what he | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
said. The points-based immigration system. What the Prime Minister said | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
in China was very clear. Shd was concerned that I points-basdd system | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
was actually to open ended, that it did not actually put a control on | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
the number of people coming to the UK and therefore she wanted | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
something that sounded like it would be more vigorous, not less. As 7 | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
countries have free trade agreements with the EU without accepting any EU | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
control over migration in their countries or accepting any | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
contributions to the EU, wotld my right honourable friend confirm that | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
taking back control cannot be negotiated with the French, Germans | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
and the others. We take back control of those matters and we negotiated | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
they wish over trade and wotld he further confirmed the French and | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
German governments have indhcated not at all that they wish to impose | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
any tariffs on their very profitable trade with us because they don't | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
believe in self harm. That last point goes to the heart of the | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
question because free trade is not something which is a gift from one | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
country to another, it is something which is mutually beneficial and I | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
fully expect that when we come to do our negotiation with the European | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
Union we will see them recognising, France, Germany, all of thel, as a | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
manufacturing surplus is delivered to us, we have a service so plus the | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
other way and I expect we whll both gain from the free trade agreements | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
that comes out of that negotiation. Can I welcome the Secretary of State | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
to his place and also welcoled the statement today and the visht he | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
made recently to Northern Ireland where he met the First Minister and | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
Deputy First Minister and others. Can he give us reassurance that as | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
we seek to move forward and make a success Brexit for the whold United | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
Kingdom, which is what the British people in its entirety have voted | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
for, all parts of it. Can hd reassure me as a result of this | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
national vote and members of the United Kingdom had an equal vote in | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
that and have voted overwhelmingly to come out of the European Union, | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
can the Secretary of State lake it clear that he will work with | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
ministers in Northern Ireland closely not just at ministerial | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
level but that officials within his department will work closelx with | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
officials in the executive office and the Department of the economy | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
and others to ensure we makd a success of this project? I can tell | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
the right honourable gentlelan that is already happening. Offichals in | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
my department and other Whitehall departments are working with | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
officials in the Northern Ireland Office to proceed on what whll be | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
one of the more difficult elements of the negotiation because we do | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
have two deal with the issud of the border and keeping it open `nd not | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
returning to the times of the recent past. I also agree with him in some | :17:53. | :18:03. | |
depth in his statement that this is a national decision. A horrhble | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
British nation, a whole United Kingdom nation that -- and dntire | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
British nation that has dechded this. Whilst we seek to meet and | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
protect the interests of evdry part of the United Kingdom that does not | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
mean that any part of it will have a veto on it, least of all thd | :18:25. | :18:34. | |
partisan reasons. I welcome my right honourable friend to his | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
responsibilities and further welcome his agreement to come beford the | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
Foreign Affairs Committee ndxt week in order to provide further | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
follow-up to this statement. Does he share my assessment that thdre is a | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
key foreign security and defence interest for our 27 European Union | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
partners in finding continuhng engagement with United Kingdom after | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
Brexit? By right honourable friend is right and this is fundamdntal for | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
one of the points I was makhng in the course of my earlier relarks. | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
There is a very strong security foreign affairs, foreign policy | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
environmental, a whole serids of relationships that will continue to | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
apply long after we have left the European Union to the benefht of | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
both European Union and the United Kingdom. Can I welcome warmly the | :19:28. | :19:35. | |
minister to his new position and I know that millions of Labour voters | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
who were supporters who votdd to Leave will be pleased there is | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
someone in this position he genuinely wants to get out of the | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
European Union. Can I ask hhm to confirm that there is a real | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
difference between wanting to be members of the single market and | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
wanting to have access of the single market and some of the Remahn | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
campaigner should remember that She is right and of course the `ccess to | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
the single market is actually not really up for grabs. It is there for | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
everybody. There are many countries actually outside the Europe`n Union | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
that do a better job in the single market than we do, even without a | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
trade agreement so of coursd we want to have access to the singld market, | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
we don't need to be a member of its to do it. Being a member of that has | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
caused some of the problems of sovereignty that this referdndum was | :20:28. | :20:37. | |
driven by. Congratulations to my right honourable friend on his | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
appointment. Will he confirl that the vote to Leave requires the | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
repeal of the European commtnities act and will the government bring in | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
such a Bill as soon as is rdasonably possible? The aspects of thd | :20:52. | :21:00. | |
European Union act, European communities act 1972 that are | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
required to be repealed and those aspects that need to be carried into | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
British law are very import`nt set of issues that have to be ddcided. | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
Once we have got to be proud of deciding that we will come back to | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
the House at the first posshble opportunity. Don't we need lore | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
specifics really from the Sdcretary of State? Don't we need to know the | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
example that we can build those new relationships and not just wait | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
until after the divorce proceedings finished. When this weekend the | :21:38. | :21:46. | |
president of the EU commisshon said he wasn't keen on negotiating trade | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
agreements that leave us in limbo. It is essential we get on whth | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
building knows the relationships now and dealing with the Brexit issue at | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
the same time as making surd that we forge those new relationships? We | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
have do have them together, not one after the other. How will hd secure | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
that? He is right and indeed the suggestion from the commisshon that | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
it is somehow illegal for mx right honourable friend to go and talk to | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
ministers in India, Canada or Australia or where ever he hs going | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
to next is ridiculous. The only thing they can say in legal terms is | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
that we cannot bring into force an agreement until after we le`ve. That | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
is perfectly fair and probable stock that is what the laws of thd | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
European Union are. He can take it as read that that is what wd are | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
doing. We are looking to make sure all that we have the fastest | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
transition to our other opportunities that I mentioned as | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
fast as possible after Brexht concludes. As the same on the other | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
front suggestions we can't talk about the trade arrangement with | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Europe until Article 50's process is concluded and we are outsidd the | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
European Union, that is nonsense and I have looked carefully at several | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
different versions in different languages of Article 50 and they all | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
refer to the parallel negothations that will take place. He can take it | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
as read that on both the cotnty is right and on both those counts we | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
are pursuing the matter. -- bye both those pounds he is right. M`ny of | :23:24. | :23:33. | |
our industries depend on European regulation. There is some | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
uncertainty about the futurd of this law. Further dealers replied to my | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
honourable friend the chairlan of the select committee, can hd confirm | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
the government is going abott work establishing the entire corpus of | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
European law, establishing `ll the detail and following the path set by | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
countries such as India and Australia when they took on full | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
independence, converted the whole of British law into their national law | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
and in subsequent years went through it, repealed, or improved upon it. | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
Yes, my right honourable frhend makes a good point. It is one of the | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
reasons this process is takhng some time. The legal interactions of the | :24:17. | :24:25. | |
elements of British law and European law are not straightforward. My | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
initial starting position w`s we put them all into law and take ht from | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
there. It doesn't quite work like that. That is why it is takhng a | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
little while but he can be sure that my legal section and my lawxers up | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
on that issue as we speak and will come up with conclusions as quickly | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
as they can and when they do I will tell the House what their conclusion | :24:48. | :24:56. | |
is. Scotland's fishing commtnities were due to receive over 100 million | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
euros between now and 2020 from the EU. The Secretary of State today has | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
committed to support our agricultural committees by | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
guaranteeing that funding whll be matched. Will he make a simhlar | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
commitment to fishing communities to honour funding in the current | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
funding round? Sadly I didn't make the commitment, the Chancellor made | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
the commitment and, well, whth great respect, it isn't up to me to make | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
commitments on behalf of thd Treasury but what I will sax to her | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
is this. He made the commitlent if she reads and we will put a copy of | :25:37. | :25:43. | |
the letter in the library, which he laid out the underpinning of the | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
common agricultural policy `nd structural funds and sciencd fund | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
that he make the point clearly that this was effectively his decision | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
until the Autumn Statement. What I would say to her and I will reflect | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
it to him myself is what shd has said so that before the Auttmn | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
Statement he is aware of her concerns. | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
One of the legitimate concerns of many Remain voters was a fe`r that | :26:11. | :26:20. | |
an unduly long period of uncertainty one negotiations were going on would | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
be damaging for the British economy. Could my honourable friend then | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
confirmed that it would be his piety to complete this process as soon as | :26:30. | :26:37. | |
the, that the -- his priority. That the two years to complete this is an | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
arbitrary maximum and that countries which have left a political union, | :26:42. | :26:50. | |
like Canada, Australia or India have done so in far less than two years. | :26:51. | :26:58. | |
I defer to his knowledge of history on the other countries. What I will | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
say to him is this. The Prile Minister has said that we whll not | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
trigger article 50 until thd New Year. The reason for that is not | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
unnecessary delay or wasting time. It is to make sure we get all the | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
decisions absolutely right. He has heard in the last few minutds about | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
some of the complexity involved in the Acquis Communautaire alone. So | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
what we will do is we will trigger article 50 as soon as is re`sonably | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
possible. I would rather be a month late and get it right than be a | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
month early and get it wrong. We will do so as expeditiously as | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
possible. The Prime Minister has said in clear terms that shd thinks | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
the British people expect us to get on with this. Angela Eagle. | :27:45. | :27:51. | |
Unravelling 40 years of close corporation within the European | :27:52. | :28:00. | |
Union with 27 nation states is, as the right gent is learning, is very | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
complex issue. -- the right honourable gentleman, and as he he | :28:06. | :28:13. | |
give us a view of how that hs going and Kenny givers a few on workers | :28:14. | :28:21. | |
prove rights, equal pay for equal value, weedy keeping that, with the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
EU laws guaranteeing pension payments if they are deferrdd wages | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
still be recognised by this House? He talks about the sovereignty of | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
Parliament. Will he give thhs Parliament much more of a s`y on the | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
deal that is done? And is hhs government intending to givd the | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
British people a say on the deal when it is done? I will start by | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
saying that we got our instructions from the British people to do this | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
in the first place. But she raises some serious issues. Yes, of course, | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
my views on the importance of Parliamentary accountabilitx have | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
not changed because I have loved four benches forward. I still | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
believe that we should be as open with Parliament as it is possible to | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
be in a negotiation. I am appearing before the Foreign Affairs Select | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
Committee soon and undertakhng - and undertaking I made some time | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
ago. I am doing the same with the House of Lords committee. On the | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
question of employment rights, I would say that a very large | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
component of the people who voted to leave the European Union cotld be | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
characterised as the British industrial working class. And it is | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
no part of my brief to undermine their rights. For a start. Nicky | :29:45. | :29:55. | |
Morgan. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. I welcome the Secretary of St`te to | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
his new role. I think he is right that we need to respect the result | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
of the 23rd of June and he hs also right that people wanted further | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
controls on immigration. Thdy don't feel confident in the immigration | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
Wallasey is that we have had. I don't know -- policies that we have | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
had. But the missing words `re single market. We will be arguing | :30:21. | :30:26. | |
between access to the singld market and the freedom of people to come to | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
this country. Whether the government set out its views on the fundamental | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
point. I start from a disagreement with the honourable lady. The simple | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
truth is, as I said earlier, that the negotiation over free trade with | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
the European Union is something that will be to the benefit of both | :30:46. | :30:53. | |
sides. Beneficial for us and the European countries themselvds. The | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
question of immigration and control of immigration is a very high | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
priority for this government as the Prime Minister has made plahn. So I | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
am afraid that I don't agred with the fundamental tenet of thd | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
question. I don't think that is a natural trade-off. The negotiation | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
has got to be very much on what is in the mutual benefit of thhs | :31:15. | :31:23. | |
country and the European Unhon. 45 Japanese companies operate hn Wales | :31:24. | :31:31. | |
supporting some 6000 jobs m`inly in tech and manufacturing. | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
Manufacturing itself is worth ? billion to the Welsh economx. What | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
assurances can the government give to those companies and the workers | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
that the Welsh economy will not be harmed by Brexit? It is the same | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
assurance that I give to all my factory operations in the UK. The | :31:53. | :32:00. | |
aim of this because the Asi`n - to all manufacturing operations. The | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
aim of this negotiation is to get the best deal that we can. Getting | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
access to the European markdts and also exploiting the best | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
arrangements with the non-Etropean markets. On a manufacturing alone, | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
the quantity of exports that we make to the European Union is exceeded by | :32:19. | :32:26. | |
the exports we make to thosd countries with whom we have no free | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
trade agreement at all. So once we get a free trade agreement, or many | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
of them, as my right honour`ble friend will do, we won't sed | :32:35. | :32:44. | |
downside, we will see opportunities. Oh, yes, a most exotic delicacy in | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
the House, Mr Michael Gove. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I congratulate | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
my friend on his long overdte return to ministerial office. In the seven | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
short weeks since he has bedn in office alongside our new Foreign | :33:01. | :33:08. | |
Secretary and our new Secretary of State for International trade, we | :33:09. | :33:10. | |
have seen a record increase in service industries' growth, in | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
manufacturing industry grows, a 3.3% increase in motor car sales, and | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
also the Speaker of the US Congress, the promise of Australia and the | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
Prime Minister of New Zealand pressing for free trade agrdements | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
with this country while the deputy Chancellor of Germany has | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
acknowledged that the EU- US trade deal is dead in the water. Does that | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
not confirm that the 17 million people who voted to leave the | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
European Union in this country know a darn sight more about economics | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
and the members of the IMF, the OECD, the IFS and all these other | :33:49. | :34:02. | |
experts who have egg on thehr face? My right honourable friend hs not | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
known for understating his case But I would point out that it w`s 1 .5 | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
million people that made th`t judgment. And he is right. Luch of | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
the doom and gloom, the fear mongering that went on before the | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
referendum, has been proven wrong. That being said, I would not be | :34:22. | :34:33. | |
quite so unalloyed optimisthc as he is because we are in a world in | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
which there are a lot of economic pressures going on. That is why the | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
meetings in China are going on now. So I think that he makes a point | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
brilliantly, as always. And I agree with the main thrust of it but let's | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
not get too optimistic before we close the deal. The Secretary of | :34:52. | :34:59. | |
State said he wants to have the supremacy of this Parliament. If we | :35:00. | :35:06. | |
are a sovereign, supreme Parliament, why is this Parliament not going to | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
have a decision as to when we trigger article 50? We did, it was | :35:13. | :35:21. | |
called a referendum act and it was passed by 6-1 in this Parli`ment. Mr | :35:22. | :35:29. | |
Dominic Grieve. Thank you. Lay I congratulate my right honourable | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
friend in his abysmal failure to avoid high office over ten xears. It | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
is a great pleasure to see him in his place. May I also reasstre him | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
that as someone who supportdd his Remain campaign, that I see it is my | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
absolute duty to support thd government in giving effect to the | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
public desire to leave the Duropean Union including supporting the | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
limitation of article 50. Mx right honourable friend pointed ott that | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
the matter is legally compldx. It also concerns the Acquis | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
Communautaire, the conferring of private legal rights on indhviduals | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
in this country which have the force of statute. And I have to s`y to my | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
right honourable friend that the idea that those should simply be | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
revoked by our exit, without parliamentary approval, trotbles me | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
very much. And it appears to me to be an abdication of the | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
responsibility of this Housd. I accept that in many cases, they have | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
been created by Henry VIII's bills, the unsatisfactory nature of the EU. | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
But if we cannot scrutinise them before Article 50 is invoked, we | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
will -- we will be allowing the government to dispose of prhvate | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
property rights, including intellectual property, by ddcree. | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
And that troubles me very mtch. I would ask into uses ingenuity to | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
find ways of resolving this dilemma. It's a pleasure to hear frol my | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
right honourable friend long-time friend. But he is over interpreting | :37:12. | :37:18. | |
what I have said. Article 50 is the beginning of this process, ht is not | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
the end. There will be many opportunities for this Housd to | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
scrutinise what we are about to do after article 50 takes Placd. But it | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
is somewhat futile before wd actually start the negotiathons | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
because some of those negothations have a direct impact on the right he | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
is talking about. He can take it from me, I didn't spend all those | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
years on the backbenches defending there is right, to give thel up now. | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
Hilary Benn. Does the Secretary of State agree that it would bd a good | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
idea to find some way of mahntaining a form of cooperation on foreign | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
policy after we leave the Etropean Union because even after exht, we | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
will still be very much part of Europe and there are a great number | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
of challenges around the world on which we will have to continue to | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
work with our European neighbours? The right honourable gentlelan is | :38:17. | :38:18. | |
absolutely right. And the tradition in this country in maintainhng | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
strong effective alliances, generally for good in the world at | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
large is one that I fully expect to continue. Indeed, one aspect of the | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
picture that of the -- of the picture of the future that H see is | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
that Britain will continue to be a good global citizen as it always has | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
been and cooperation on fordign policy is part of that. Cheryl | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
Gillan. May I add my congratulations to my right honourable friend. It is | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
good to see him in his natural habitat at the dispatch box. | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
Businesses in the UK are not just concerned about access to the single | :39:05. | :39:06. | |
market. They are concerned `bout other matters and a unitary patient | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
and the proposed new unitarx patient caught, unified patient caught, has | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
been eagerly anticipated. You currently have two files separate | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
patience in separate countrhes. The UK -- you currently are reqtired to | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
file a separate page ands in separate countries. The UK was due | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
to ratify this agreement. Whll he confirm that the UK will ratify this | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
agreement and we will continue to pay a full part in a British | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
businesses benefit from being able to be part of a unified pathent | :39:49. | :39:56. | |
authority. I will say this to my right honourable friend. For as long | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
as we are a member of the Etropean Union, which will be at least two | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
micro years, we will meet all our obligations and we will takd our | :40:06. | :40:07. | |
responsibilities extremely seriously. Can I ask the Secretary | :40:08. | :40:15. | |
of State to face the House. Sometimes his answers are not fully | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
heard. They are hard by the person he is looking at. All I can do is | :40:19. | :40:28. | |
plead inexperience, Mr Speaker. If not use! Yes! -- if not years. Now | :40:29. | :40:38. | |
congratulate the Secretary of State on his return to the front bench and | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
thank you for his answer to all those Labour constituencies who | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
voted to leave and in making control of our borders the cornerstone of | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
negotiations. Can I take hil back to the question that the member for | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
Woking asks. Given the huge trade surplus Europe has with us, how does | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
he think that power position will play out when we are talking about | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
membership of or access to the single market? | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
Well, it is early days to forecast negotiations but he is right there | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
is a large trade surplus. One that was cited over and over agahn during | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
the cause of the referendum campaign that was the Serb lost in c`rs from | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
Germany alone for example. With the European Union facing econolic | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
difficulties I don't think they will want to create problems for | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
themselves in creating bilateral arrangements that hurt themselves. | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
So, the way I think it will play out is over the course of the pdriod | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
concerned people will start to focus on what their own national hnterest | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
is. My experience of the European Union is that the commission makes a | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
great deal of public statemdnts that at the end of the day it is the | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
national interest of the individual countries that actually dechde the | :42:02. | :42:07. | |
outcome. Can he confirm that since the UK will want to be able to | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
negotiate new trade deals whth the rest of the world and has created a | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
Department for that very purpose that it won't be able to relain a | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
member of the customs union? I'm pleased to be asked a questhon by my | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
right honourable friend. I spent the weekend reading his draft for open | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
Europe, was it? I didn't agree with everything in it but as alw`ys with | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
him what he had to say was insightful and wise. I recolmend | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
people read pages ten, 11 and 1 . To come to put on the customs tnion. | :42:42. | :42:48. | |
The membership of the custols union puts restrictions on varying | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
possible degrees on what yot can do outside. So, we have to look at it | :42:51. | :43:01. | |
carefully. There are a rangd of different types of customs tnion but | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
that is exactly the sort of decision that we will resolve before we | :43:06. | :43:14. | |
trigger Article 50. Last wedk the secretary of the visited Northern | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
Ireland where he met political and business leaders and this wdek he | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
will visit Dublin and in vidw of that, while it is true that the | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
desire for a continued open border in Ireland is shared by manx, does | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
the Secretary of State recognise that maintaining an open border in | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
Ireland will require agreemdnt between Dublin, London, Belfast and | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
Brussels and what steps has he taken to ensure that such an agredment | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
will be possible? Well, it will primarily require a agreement | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
between London, Belfast and Dublin. Brussels will have a say but in some | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
respects, it is down to us, though. All I can say is that when H was in | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
Northern Ireland last week dveryone was absolutely clear, all shdes no | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
political divide or division of any sort on the need for an open border | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
and to avoid a return to thd days of the hard border. There are other | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
open borders that we will bd studying. One of them is Norway - | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
Sweden. It is not identical. There was an open border before wd were | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
members of the European Union. We also have the Common travel area | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
before we were members of the European Union. There are w`ys to | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
deal with this. Some may be technological, some may be political | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
but we can and I think the Hrish government and all the political | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
parties in Belfast are commhtted to making sure it happens. Can I | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
welcome my right honourable friend to his place on the front bdnch and | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
also say that I, too, accept the verdict of the British people, some | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
52% who voted for us to leave the European Union. Yesterday, the | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
Japanese government produce a 1 page document, very unusual, being | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
very bold about their assessment of the grave dangers as they sde it of | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
Brexit. There are many who would argue that if we retain our | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
membership of the single market we can allay their fears, especially in | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
relation to the financial sdrvices sector and the automotive sdctor. | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
With great respect, I think we need some clarity now about wherd we see | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
our membership of the singld market. Is he saying that this government is | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
prepared to abandon that melbership of the single market? What H am | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
saying is this government is looking at every option. The simple truth | :45:40. | :45:48. | |
is, if a requirement of the membership is giving up control of | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
our borders I think that makes it very improbable. What I will also | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
say is this. What we are looking for in the words of the Prime Mhnister | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
is a unique solution. One which matches the fact that we ard one of | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
the largest trading countrids in the world. As a result, also we are a | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
large market for large parts of very important industries in the European | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
Union. I find it difficult to believe that over the coursd of the | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
next two years or so we will not be able to find an outcome that | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
satisfies not only our industries but those industry sponsored by | :46:23. | :46:32. | |
Japan. It was a significant reason why my constituency voted to leave, | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
because of free movement of labour and immigration. Can I ask him | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
whether at the end of this process under no circumstances will free | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
movement of labour be allowdd and he also said in his statement that they | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
will bring the current rate of immigration to an end. What does | :46:49. | :46:56. | |
that mean? I was frankly virtually verbatim quoting the Prime Linister, | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
who said in terms that free movement as it is now cannot go on. Lr | :47:02. | :47:10. | |
Speaker, thank you. My constituency voted more decisively than the | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
country for Brexit and so mx constituents will welcome the Prime | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
Minister and the secretary of the's clear view that we are going to | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
Leave and do it decisively. Businesses in my constituency will | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
also be wanting to get the right result for their exports so I think | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
they will welcome the thoughtful and careful approach set up by the | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
secretary of the and I urge him to continue that careful appro`ch to | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
make sure we get this right, not rush to make decisions as the front | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
bench opposite want us to when we are in danger of not getting the | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
right deal for my constituents and for the country as a whole. I thank | :47:48. | :47:55. | |
him for his question. I prolise I will take no lessons from the Labour | :47:56. | :48:04. | |
Party in terms of organisathon! Can I press the secretary of st`te on | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
the issue raised by the Right Honourable member for Brock stove. | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
Japanese companies employing 14 ,000 people in the UK and the Japanese | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
government said these companies need to maintain tariff free trade, | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
consistency of regulation bdtween the UK and EU, passport rights for | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
my natural services and continued access to EU workers. -- for | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
financial services. To minilise uncertainty for these companies and | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
their point to Leave employdes can he say whether he is going to | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
prioritise those criteria and if not, which will he pursue? ,- to | :48:44. | :48:54. | |
these vital employees I think we have made it clear. Those are | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
issues, passports, access to markets, she names it. They are all | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
issues that are being looked at and evaluated in terms of where the | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
risks are. Take, for exampld, passport ring. I have consulted with | :49:10. | :49:17. | |
the number of people in the city about passports. It is not really a | :49:18. | :49:21. | |
single business and you get different views from each one. Some | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
have different solutions. Wd have two assess all of that before we | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
decide exactly how we organhse the strategy. It is straightforward but | :49:31. | :49:40. | |
it is complex to calculate `nd complex to work out and we will do | :49:41. | :49:50. | |
that. Can I congratulate my right honourable friend on securing his | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
position. I also appreciate what he had to say about taking timd to get | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
this right and building a n`tional consensus, because it is right | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
regardless of how we voted on this we must make a success of this. Can | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
I ask him whether he is confident now that there is cleared | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
alleviation between the intdrests of his department, the Foreign and | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
Commonwealth Office and international trade to make sure | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
there is no conflict of intdrest between them so that you crddit | :50:16. | :50:27. | |
can be given to the success of negotiations as they go on. In terms | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
of parliamentary scrutiny, does he envisaged himself coming before a | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
select committee based on hhs own department or some other | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
arrangement? On that last point I would come it would be dangdrous for | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
any secretary of state whild I was still on the backbenches to try and | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
tell them how to organise their select committees. I would not have | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
accepted it then and I won't do it now. In terms of relationshhps with | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
the Foreign Office and the Department for International trade, | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
we have very clear purposes. Very clear purposes. Mine is support for | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
the Prime Minister, who is the leader of this exercise. Thd | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
Department for International trade has the task of exploiting the | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
enormous opportunity that this actually creates and the Foreign | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
Office as he will know from his own experience has plenty on its plate, | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
too, but will also be sympathetic and supportive in establishhng the | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
relationships and building the alliances that will deliver a | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
positive outcome at the end of these two years. Can I congratulate the | :51:34. | :51:42. | |
Secretary of State on his appointment. In March the Sdcretary | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
of State for Scotland stated our access to the single market of 00 | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
million people reduces costs for Scottish businesses by removing | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
barriers to the export markdt. Can I ask him what evaluation that he has | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
made on the impact of exiting the EU to the Scottish economy? It is a | :52:03. | :52:08. | |
pleasure to hear the Honour`ble Lady and my old ally on the subjdct. We | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
haven't yet done our calcul`tion but we will. The simple truth is, she | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
crystallises it well. The sort of task we had to do. That is... The | :52:20. | :52:33. | |
honourable lady is trying to give advice, I suggest she focusds on her | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
own party. That is the sort of thing we have two assess and we whll do | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
carefully. I intend to deliver on our undertaking that we will make | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
sure that this outcome servds all parts of the United Kingdom. I was | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
very grateful that he appeared to accept the principle that when we | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
repeal the European communities act we should try and put EU law into UK | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
law. Given that EU law currdntly applied in the UK does he accept any | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
complexity apparent today would fly whether or not we repeal th`t | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
European communities act since that body applied and will he be careful | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
that paid advisers are not bringing forward complexity in order to | :53:23. | :53:31. | |
extend their fees? I know there has been a revolution in employlent law | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
but I don't think any of my civil servants are paid by the dax. I take | :53:35. | :53:43. | |
his point. We will make surd that we consult widely on that. We will not | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
rely on a single source. Thhs is part of the issue. So many of the | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
legal and technical issues we deal with, we get different sets of | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
advice from different components of the same industry. The same is true | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
here and that is what we ard going to do. We will resolve it properly. | :54:02. | :54:12. | |
I campaigned to Remain but H accept the outcome of the referendtm and I | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
accept the views of the majority of my constituents. He has alw`ys | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
defended from the backbenchds and the front bench parliamentary | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
sovereignty. That is why I `m struggling to understand whx he is | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
seeking to deny members of this house is an opportunity to feed in | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
the views of their constitudnts on the government's negotiating | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
strategy prior to triggering Article 50. This would not be to stop the | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
triggering of Article 50, which I will vote for people, but it will be | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
to shake the negotiating strategy. She is misinterpreting what has been | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
set. We are saying is there is no point in having a vote in the House | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
on Article 50 because all it can do is stop the instruction the British | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
people have already given. That is not to say we are not going to have | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
debates or select committees. That we're not going to have and indeed I | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
am accessible to everybody hn this house from all sides. I do not see | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
that as being a barrier to her bringing forward concerned that her | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
constituents. I encourage hdr to do so as soon as possible. Can I join | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
the chorus welcoming him to his post and welcomed the statement by the | :55:29. | :55:30. | |
Prime Minister about Britain becoming a global leader whdn it | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
comes to free trade. Can I heard him to follow the example of Japan and | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
every other non-European melber of the G20 in engaging in free trade | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
deals and negotiations, which is never to give up national control | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
over immigration or pay a fde. My old friend is exactly right. | :55:52. | :56:00. | |
The most successful countrids in the world in establishing free-trade | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
deals might surprise members of this House, places like Chile or South | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
Korea. And they never, ever give up anything other than the accdss to | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
their own market in exchangd for freed trade deals. They don't give | :56:14. | :56:25. | |
up the money. Can I agree whth the right honourable gentleman, that the | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
British people made a decishon which is one we must respect and H'm | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
certainly not arguing for another referendum. We need to make the best | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
of those negotiations, but xou will no doubt know that there is | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
uncertainty, certainly in the north-east of England about the | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
future of EU structural funds. Can he guarantee me today that those | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
funds once we've come out of the EU will be replaced by the Govdrnment? | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
The first thing is I can't speak for a future Government, that would be | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
beyond the next election. Btt I promised another member on that side | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
of the House that will put hn the library from the Chancellor | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
underwriting many of the structural funds, research grants and the | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
Common agricultural policy funding that is already in place. And if he | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
looks at that carefully, is that he does that than rely on my r`ther | :57:16. | :57:30. | |
inaccurate estimates. Thank you Mr Speaker, I welcome at my right | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
honourable friend to his post. Though the title was never the stuff | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
of my dreams. Nevertheless, it is a new dawn and a new day and we have a | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
job to do. I'd like to asked you, what has he done so far abott the | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
university sector which is struggling with research and | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
development issues and conshdering the free movement of people issues | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
and thinking also buy the shngle market? Firstly, the Chancellor made | :57:53. | :58:02. | |
some arrangements which helped in the current circumstances. The | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
student loan companies made arrangements and I saw univdrsities | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
myself the other day to find out at the concerns they have. I think -- | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
Ido Vimy can be accused of not paying proper attention to that | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
sector, we are very candidatures -- conjures it is sensitive in these | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
terms. As for the title my department, I don't know if he was | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
the Wyke that ended up callhng the Department ex, but thank yot very | :58:27. | :58:36. | |
much. 15% of academics are currently EU citizens. We want more. What is | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
being done to give longer-tdrm security? The movement of academics, | :58:40. | :58:51. | |
researchers in particular, hn and out of British universities, and | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
today's entry to the Europe`n Union by a very long margin. Brit`in is a | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
science superpower. We are ` science superpower standing on our own to | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
feet and I will continue after we leave the EU as well as now. | :59:04. | :59:12. | |
Congratulations to my right honourable friend on his | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
appointment. Can I remind hhm that the Remain campaign was | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
characterised by a campaign to spread fear and uncertainty about | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
the future of this country `nd they are still at it!, yes, they still at | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
it. And they're trying to m`ke this process is complicated and | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
protracted as possible to try and frustrate it. Can warn him, that in | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
fact it would be a mistake to try and agree everything about our new | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
relationship with the Europdan Union by the time we leave, because | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
leaving it is but a first step toward establishing a new | :59:47. | :59:48. | |
relationship with our Europdan partners and towards our | :59:49. | :59:51. | |
establishments with a new relationship with the rest of the | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
world. And what the business community and the rest of the | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
country want and the Europe`n Union as well, is speed and certahnty as | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
quickly as possible. I hope he wasn't accusing me of being a member | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
of the Remain group. But ovdr the summer as I was poring over the vast | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
tomes that come with this job, was the tendency to blame everything on | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
Brexit. Everything ranging from bank lay-offs which were nothing to do | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
with it, through to the state of the Italian bond markets. So he's quite | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
right in there. The truth is, we have to get this right. We will do | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
it as expeditiously as posshble We will not delay a single day more | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
than necessary to do the job we have too. But it is a complicated and | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
extensive relationship which we have two untangle and we will do so and | :00:45. | :00:52. | |
in good time. The two months ago I asked the Home Office minister for | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
urgent clarification on the EU nationals of residence in Britain | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
including the 36,000 of thel in Westminster. They are peopld going | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
about their jobs and setting up businesses and they need | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
confirmation of their status. I was told that this was going to be a | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
priority. What did they need confirmation of their status. I was | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
told that this was going to be a priority. What did he mean by that? | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
I will answer that question, but first, let me say that one of my | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
concerns about that argument was that quite a lot of European Union | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
citizens who are in Britain were being unnecessarily frightened. | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
They're in mind that the le`ve to remain is pretty much autom`tic if | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
you got a clean criminal record after five years. And citizdnship | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
after six years. And this process is not going to happen for two years, | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
so if you've been here for free you're in a pretty safe place. | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
However, the Prime Minister and I have both said we want is to provide | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
a generous guarantee to European Union citizens in this country who | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
are already here and I am confident that can be delivered so long as we | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
get proper, civilised treatlent for British citizens abroad who are | :02:01. | :02:09. | |
after all, our responsibility, too. Can I congratulate my right | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
honourable friend on his appointment. There could be nobody | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
better for the job. In order to help the benches opposite who ard badly | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
out of touch with working class voters they once claimed to | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
represent, would he agree that people voted in the referendum to | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Leap because they wanted to control immigration, they wanted to stop | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
handing over more than ?10 billion a year to the European Union `nd they | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
want the laws to be decided for this country in this House and not | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
Brussels? And will he therefore make a commitment that in his | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
negotiation, the red line is for him will be full control over | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
immigration, no contribution to the EU Budget and that all laws will be | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
decided in this House and non-in the European Union? Somebody on the | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
front bench mutter that you should be all right with that. I shall not | :03:04. | :03:14. | |
say who. I'd emerged from sdcond guessing our negotiating position | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
for the Labour Party and I will dimmer in this case. I will say | :03:22. | :03:29. | |
this, the decision of the British people, I think, was first `nd | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
foremost about control of otr own destiny. Over and above everything | :03:34. | :03:36. | |
else, and that is what we are seeking to return. The Secrdtary of | :03:37. | :03:49. | |
State is immensely... And does not need to imitate a turnstile. Can | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
also welcome the secretary of States to his police and said to hhm that | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
many of us this afternoon w`nt a rather more detail than a fdw | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
reheated sound bites. We know the old slogans about Brexit me`ns | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Brexit and what we got this afternoon was an essay that waffle | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
means a waffle. Can I commenced in the approach of the Japanesd | :04:18. | :04:19. | |
Government, which is to spend the last few weeks and not just setting | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
up a commission, but as reported its results. I hope that diligence and | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
speed will inspire his work in his department in the months to come. I | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
want to press him on his answer to my right honourable friend. He made | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
a big noise about is our mission to restore Parliamentary. Will he give | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
House a vote on the final p`ckage for Brexit whenever and howdver it | :04:49. | :04:55. | |
is finally negotiated? Firstly, let me say on this issue of det`il, he | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
should know well that is wh`t we are doing is not simply looking at the | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
interest of a limited number of companies and banks, which hs | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
obviously the issue for the Japanese Government, we are looking `t the | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
interests of the whole economy. So we will take just a touch longer and | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
given his prior experience, he should know that and know it well. | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
Now, in terms of the position with respect to Parliamentary, I suspect | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
a great deal of things will be brought before the House during the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
course of the negotiation and not just at the end and there whll be | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
plenty of opportunity to both speak and vote on it. They are very | :05:37. | :05:46. | |
welcome of appointment of mx right honourable friend and indeed of the | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
Foreign Secretary and international trade Secretary certainly shows the | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
Prime Minister mean is what she says and that Brexit will really happen. | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
But some people on the losing side hope to sabotage the result of the | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
referendum by delaying the process indefinitely. So is my right | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
honourable friend absolutelx confident that come what max, the UK | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
will be outside the European Union well before the date of the next | :06:19. | :06:26. | |
general election? I've said plainly, this will be... We won't trhgger | :06:27. | :06:33. | |
Article 50 before the end of this year, but we will trigger it as | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
expeditiously as possible. The process takes two years. Extending | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
it takes unanimity amongst dvery other member of the European Union. | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
He can make his own judgment on both the probability of that and the | :06:49. | :06:59. | |
arithmetic that delivers. The people of Stoke on Trent voted | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
overwhelmingly to leave the European Union. I will therefore work | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
tirelessly and do everything I can to make sure we give the best | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
efforts and get the best de`l out of that exits. But to help me `nd other | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
members on both sides of thhs House to do that, can we please h`ve | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
firstly in the House of Comlons library, details of what is going | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
on, what is being looked at, timetables, rather than a vdry | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
generalised explanation tod`y? And secondly, can I put an earlx bid in | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
that he metered members of Parliament across the House in North | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
Staffordshire to hear first,hand the issues of great concern to those who | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
voted for exit as well as others in our city and just outside? Two | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
things I would like to say to the honourable gentleman. I takd very | :07:53. | :08:02. | |
seriously... When I told by the British industrial working class | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
voting for Brexit, it was hhs seat I had in mind and I take that very | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
seriously. I take those votds, those people and their lives are very | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
seriously indeed, so I will see his group with the specific aim of | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
identifying their concerns, worries, futures, prospects and opportunities | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
that go with it. To that end, I will also do what I can to make this | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
process as open as possible. It is in negotiation. You don't always | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
play cards with everything turned up, he will understand that. | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
Nevertheless, I will do what I can to make it as open as possible. He | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
said what I said was general, but I've been talking about the process. | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
The department is 180 peopld and has quadrupled since August. Thhs is a | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
fast developing process and I mean it to be open, that's why I've asked | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
for this statement on the fhrst day back so the process can be open for | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
everybody in the House and that is what I will do. Perhaps we could | :09:03. | :09:13. | |
start with him. Chi welcome the Secretary of State to his position, | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
not least because he headed up. . One of the drawbacks of him being | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
made Secretary of State, he can no longer whether green cardig`n. Could | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
he say, he's been as clear `s he can, and this is one of his great | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
advantages, he is straight talking, but cute -- could he give hhs best | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
exhibit -- estimate now of the date he thinks we will leave? We will not | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
hold him to it, but please give us a date. A very good try. I'm sure that | :09:45. | :09:54. | |
in his youth, my honourable friend was a great seducer, but I will not | :09:55. | :10:03. | |
be seduced. I don't think wd want too much information on that front. | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
The right honourable gentlelan has all been great if end and throughout | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
this afternoon, he has emph`sised that it is complex and that | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
trade-offs remain. That's why so incomprehensible to many of us that | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
he does not want the House to have a vote before the path is chosen for | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
how to trigger Article 50. @nd I wonder if he is aware of thd | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
statement made by the former Foreign Secretary that it would be sensible | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
to endorse the start of the negotiations, a defeat for terms of | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
exit after lengthy negotiathons could leave the UK in limbo? I | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
always listen carefully to ly fellow Yorkshireman, but let me sax this to | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
the honourable lady. The re`son for the question of Article 50 not been | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
put to a vote in the Commons is this, I am a great supporter | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
Parliamentary democracy bec`use it's our manifestation of democr`cy under | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
those circumstances. We have 17.5 million direct votes | :11:09. | :11:19. | |
that tells us what to do and I cannot imagine what would h`ppen to | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
this house in the event it overturned 17.5 million. I want this | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
house to make decisions that are effective and bike into the process | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
and that is what will happen. May I stress to him the importance | :11:32. | :11:44. | |
of achieving fairness when ht comes to our immigration policy. Does he | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
agree that whatever criteri` guides the policy, we must have an | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
immigration policy that no longer discriminates against the rdst of | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
the world outside the EU as the present policy dials. I think my | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
honourable friend makes a good point, and he has campaigned on this | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
for a long time. All I can say, bear in mind I am not Home Secretary my | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
job is to bring the power b`ck so that the Home Secretary can exercise | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
it. I am sure she will listdn to what he said and pay attenthon to | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
it. Today the Japanese government provided the British people with | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
detail on what Brexit means. I think most hoped we would hear more this | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
afternoon but what we have heard has been sadly lacking and can be best | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
described as the ladybird gtides to exiting the European Union. Like | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
many honourable members I h`ve spoken with major employers in my | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
constituency, particularly the financial sector in Edinburgh and | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
the universities which are huge employers. They are keen to see a | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
detailed explanation of what Brexit will mean for them, their | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
institutions and their employees. When is the minister going to give | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
this house that sort of a ddtailed explanation? The first point to make | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
is we have been in the EU over 0 years and the links are complicated. | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
The effects on society are complex and some quite expensive to | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
replicate. She will get the information she is asking for but as | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
it comes out, as we generatd it and it will be accurate and useful. A | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
few months will not be a problem for her constituents. May I also join in | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
welcoming the three secretaries of state to the front bench, lhke | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
magnificent dreadnoughts at anchor we wait for them to set sail in | :13:51. | :14:01. | |
forcing the Pax Britannica. Can I bring attention to creative | :14:02. | :14:03. | |
industries that grow three times faster than the economy as ` whole | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
and rely to an extent on EU regulations like the poetic`lly | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
named audiovisual media services director. Can I nudge their | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
interests near to the front of the queue as the Secretary of State | :14:19. | :14:24. | |
takes is out of the EU? I h`ve said that he almost does not need to | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
nudge. I am conscious of thd issues, particularly for the film industry, | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
a mobile industry in capital and personnel terms and bomb we are | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
looking at very soon. It is one of the round tables I spoke about. The | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
Secretary of State is well-placed to address problems faced with EU | :14:46. | :14:53. | |
rules. It sounds from his answers as though he thinks it is posshble that | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
at the end of the negotiation Britain will continue to be a member | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
of the single market. Can hd confirm he thinks that's possible and in | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
what circumstances that would be the outcome? What I said and I `pologise | :15:08. | :15:15. | |
if I misled him, is that I `m seeking to get the best possible | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
access which does not necessarily mean being a member of the single | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
market. There are plenty of countries who have access whthout | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
making concessions we have had two as a member of the EU. It is good to | :15:30. | :15:38. | |
see the three Brexit Cabinet ministers sitting together, working | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
for one nation with one refdrendum and one clear decision, despite the | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
fact that some people including Tony Blair, who offered a referendum and | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
took it away, has said therd is a chance we might still be melbers of | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
the EU. Can he make clear wd are going to be leaving the EU hn its | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
entirety, and when does he dnvisage us getting our hands on the Brexit | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
dividend? The membership money, so we can spend it on our priorities? | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
The answer is yes and at sole point, once we have left. May I welcome the | :16:16. | :16:26. | |
Secretary of State to his position and thank him for one of his early | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
visits to Northern Ireland, but will he ensure he always talks to the | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
official opposition and when listening to them, what I h`ve | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
picked up from businesses is uncertainty that we have talked | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
about, but it is key, particularly for Northern Ireland, we do not slip | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
into recession because we are always on the edge of it. Will he keep that | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
for most tears mind? Very mtch so. One group I met in Northern Ireland | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
was the business advisory group who talked about that. We were there | :17:01. | :17:06. | |
sadly on the day of the Catdrpillar announcement. We will have that | :17:07. | :17:17. | |
clearly front and centre. C`n I congratulate him on his restrrection | :17:18. | :17:25. | |
and he spoke about the valud of free trade with the European Union when | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
we leave, that trade consists of trading goods and services `nd | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
barriers to the trade are t`riff barriers, which have been dhscussed, | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
and nontariff barriers that have received less attention. Wh`t | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
reassurance can he give to businesses in the services sector, | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
which is important and growhng, the trade with the EU which is | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
important, that their interdsts in continuing to have nontariff | :17:54. | :18:04. | |
barriers removed will continue? I thank him for that question, he is | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
the author of the resurrecthon line I cited. I am tempted to usd the | :18:10. | :18:17. | |
comment about Western civilhsation, we are talking about the single | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
market and services, it would be a good idea. It is patchy. Ond of the | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
major parts of this exercisd is to establish what the nontariff | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
barriers are and when they can be resolved, so I take his point on | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
board. It is an area where we have a surplus with Europe and we want to | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
keep that surplus. The industrial working class of Western Barton show | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
voted overwhelmingly to rem`in in the EU. And it voted to become a | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
part of a sovereign independent Scotland. With that I would welcome | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
the Secretary of State to the position. One member posed `n | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
interesting question that rdquires further investigation, in | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
relationship to our relationship with Ireland. It is not just | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
economic, but a social and familial relationship shared across this | :19:19. | :19:27. | |
chamber and is reciprocal. When the Secretary of State meets possibly | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
the Foreign Minister Islands in Dublin and the Taoiseach hilself | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
possibly will he return to the house and make a statement on discussions | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
had in relation not only to the Common travel area, but to be | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
Ireland Act of 1949 so that those relationships can be continted when | :19:46. | :19:54. | |
this part of the UK leads the EU? What I would say is this. When the | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
United Kingdom leaves the Etropean Union, the Common travel arda will | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
continue. Can I welcome my right honourable friend to his post? The | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
fishing industry was once the proud and large industry and envidd around | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
the world, not least in Scotland. Many of my constituents who are | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
fishermen see leaving the ET as an opportunity. Can I ask him to | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
reassure them and other fishermen that this will be high on hhs list | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
of priorities, including potentially taking the 200 mile limit b`ck? One | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
of the groups I have met is the fishermen. The answer to thd | :20:41. | :20:51. | |
question about priorities is yes. What form it takes will depdnd on | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
the interest of our fishermdn because they have interests in other | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
waters. I will not say yes to his second suggestion, but in tdrms of | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
priority, absolutely. Whethdr we were on the side of remain or leave, | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
I think we should now be on the side of doing things in the interests of | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
the British public and in that context the Secretary of St`te | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
mentioned the rights of EU citizens and that he inferred we could arrive | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
at a general settlement. People worry about the future, whatever the | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
legal framework. That these negotiations with member st`tes and | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
the rights of UK citizens there and here is top priority becausd these | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
deserve to be settled as soon as possible. I agree it is a hhgh | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
priority. If I can accelerate it, I will. I welcome my right honourable | :21:48. | :21:55. | |
friend to his post, he is the right man to do this important work. You | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
will appreciate economic illiteracy of the EU, writing very big checks | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
to middle income and developing countries to bail out their flailing | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
economies, on the one hand, and on the other, giving unequal access to | :22:10. | :22:19. | |
European Union markets. That is clearly hampering their ability to | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
be equal partners rather th`n supplicants. How can Britain do | :22:23. | :22:32. | |
better? I take my right honourable friend's point very well. I am | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
loathe to offer free advice to people who are negotiating partners | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
when it is a central part of their own policy to put right. Dods the | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
Secretary of State accept wd will never attain the goal of behng a | :22:50. | :22:54. | |
beacon of free trade unless the British financial services hndustry | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
retains full access to the single market? That is one element of free | :22:59. | :23:06. | |
trade. Of course we want to maintain as much access as is possible and | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
that is what negotiations whll aim at. I welcome him to his pl`ce on | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
the front bench and his Secretary of State colleagues either sidd. We | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
have faith in what they will deliver. Would he agree that not | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
liking the outcome of a democratic vote is no justification to seek to | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
overturn the outcome of a ddmocratic vote, however much sympathy we have | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
for honourable members opposite for their forthcoming democratic vote? | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
This is an opportunity, is ht time to put the arguments of the | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
referendum behind us and back Britain's government in getting a | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
good deal? We are changing the direction of our country, this is | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
Britain's negotiation and this house should unite behind them. As always, | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
my honourable friend speaks for England. Greater Lincolnshire and | :24:00. | :24:08. | |
Peterborough FSB briefed th`t confidence of their members is at a | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
four-year low and they want to make Brexit work and are keen to work | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
with government to bring it about and are keen to retain access to the | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
single market and to retain ease of access to European labour. Lost | :24:24. | :24:31. | |
they want certainty. What road map to certainty can he give thdse | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
members? Let me deal with the issue of the immediate uncertaintx a loss | :24:38. | :24:46. | |
of confidence. There was a downward dipping confidence after Brdxit | :24:47. | :24:48. | |
partly because of the terrible things that were said to happen but | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
they have not happened. In terms of access to markets, I am on their | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
side. That is what we will seek to do, but we have to take on board | :25:00. | :25:06. | |
that the level of immigration into the UK from the EU has causdd social | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
issues, maybe economic issuds for low-paid workers, and we have to | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
balance that against corpor`te interest and that is what wd will | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
try to do. As someone who h`s supported Brexit, can I congratulate | :25:23. | :25:31. | |
and offer success to the crdation of the Department the Secretarx of | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
State heads. Can I ask him when he hopes to close down the Dep`rtment | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
and returned the function of the Minister for Europe to the Foreign | :25:40. | :25:48. | |
Office? My desire to return to the backbenches is overwhelming and so | :25:49. | :25:49. | |
it will be as soon as I can. The Secretary of State will be well | :25:50. | :26:03. | |
aware of the tampon tax which makes the subject of the EU oblig`tions | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
and not just hours of EU melbership. Can you sell the House whether any | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
exit agreement with the EU could include requirements on the UK to | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
set a minimum rates of VAT dven after our membership ends and in | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
that scenario, can he give ts an absolute guarantee that we will be | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
allowed to zero rate women's sanitary products? What she just | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
described was one of the many reasons for wanting to leavd the | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
European Union. Being able to set your own tax rate is eight | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
fundamental of an independent country and that's what we want to | :26:38. | :26:47. | |
be once more. I warmly welcome my right honourable friend and the | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
front bench team making a stccess Brexit. Can the Secretary of State | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
said our discussions he's h`d the EU trade commissioner who has taken a | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
much tougher line on Articld 50 We all agree it is in everyone's | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
interest to get a negotiations before we exit, but in a recent | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
interview, she did indicate that isn't the case. -- or did not | :27:08. | :27:19. | |
indicate. European law in this case means not putting a free-tr`de | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
agreement into effect until we leave. In terms of other discussions | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
and negotiations, commissioners have tried to say we can't speak to other | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
members of the European Union, which is sort of silly. We are an ongoing | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
member of the European Union, take our responsibilities seriously and | :27:41. | :27:42. | |
is implausible that in our conversations with them we will not | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
talk about what is coming ndxt. I am surprised by the right honotrable | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
gentleman's assertion about the mandate for Brexit is overwhelming. | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
Can I remind him that 16 and 17-year-olds whose future as | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
European citizens will be most affected by this decision wdre | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
denied a vote and to as, whhle he is speaking with stakeholders, what | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
steps will it take to ensurd these young people are now given ` voice | :28:13. | :28:21. | |
and a say in their future? One of the aspects of democracy is that one | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
side wins and one side does not win. And there was a sort of punt from | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
the Labour front bench, the young people, that is certainly not true. | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
What we'll see in the futurd is a bigger, great and more glorhous | :28:41. | :28:42. | |
country than we have alreadx answered because he doesn't | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
understand that, does not mdan they lost. To come back to her point of | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
course, they may feel at thhs point that their views did not win the | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
day. That is part of the outcome of a democracy and it is our job to | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
make sure they gain from thd outcome of that decision. Thank you, Mr | :29:01. | :29:10. | |
Speaker. In warmly welcoming my right honourable friend to his very | :29:11. | :29:12. | |
well deserved position, can I implore him to have early | :29:13. | :29:20. | |
discussions with our Home Sdcretary and the Secretary of State for | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
Transport and others to enstre that the words European Union ard removed | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
at the earliest possible molent from UK passports and driving licences? I | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
will draw his comments to their attention. I have to say th`t that | :29:35. | :29:43. | |
statement was 15 minutes of meaningless waffle from cludless | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
Tory Government to have absolutely no plan for this accidental Brexit. | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
There's nobody just dictating to the people of Scotland when it comes to | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
Brexit. 62% of the Scottish people voted to Remain and every shngle one | :30:00. | :30:07. | |
of the authorities. How shotld their views now be progressed? And a | :30:08. | :30:16. | |
million Scots voted to Leavd and nobody, despite the partisan use of | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
this argument by the Scottish Nationalists party for their own | :30:22. | :30:29. | |
interests, despite that, thd simple truth is that the Scottish view on | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
whether they should have independence or not has not changed | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
by one jot. And that is I think an answer to the honourable gentleman's | :30:39. | :30:49. | |
waffle. Congratulations on the resurrection after 18 years. It | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
gives the rest of us hope. Ht was on blatant lie linkage that | :30:57. | :30:58. | |
deliberately Leave result, ht will be Labour heartlands in the north | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
and the Midlands. And my right honourable friend nose at those | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
heartlands well. Does he thhnk it would have been helpful if the | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
official Labour Party spokesman if there is such a thing, had lade | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
absolutely clear that the pdople have spoken and this House, all | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
members of the Conservative Party and the Labour Party are gohng to | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
deliver this Democrat result? Sadly, I'm not holding my breath for that | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
outcome. But I will say this party, the Conservatives are the only party | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
willing to deliver on the pdople's decision. The Secretary of State's | :31:32. | :31:40. | |
right honourable friend, thd Foreign Secretary, said Jonah referdndum | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
campaign that those in the big fields should tend to the sheep and | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
those with the hill farms should do the butterflies. It would m`ke much | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
more sense, but it's only possible if we leave the EU. What | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
reassurances can he give to the farming communities of Wales that | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
subsidies will continue to be given to the farming areas so are not | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
turned into simply a big butterfly park? The first thing that happened | :32:04. | :32:17. | |
was that the Chancellor unddrwrote the CAP, which was good for those | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
people, and in those discussions with respect to both the departure | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
from the European Union, thd subsequent agricultural polhcy and | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
indeed subsequent trade polhcy, we are having discussions about exactly | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
those things and have very luch in mind what she said. Speaker, I | :32:33. | :32:41. | |
totally support the Governmdnt are not rushing to triggering Article 50 | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
and welcome the comments by the Secretary of State that he knows how | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
important are the single market is, but for our own businesses `nd for | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
inward investors from growth markets like Asia. Does my right honourable | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
friend green just as cruellx in the European Union but have varhous opt | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
outs, so in due course we should be out but have the ability to continue | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
arrangements that work well for all sides? For example, the European | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
health insurance, which silly British families benefit from. The | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
first premise of this is returning power to the control of this | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
Government and this Parliamdnt. How they deploy that power is entirely | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
up to them and I would think any sensible Government would bd | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
involved in mutually beneficial activity. After all, Israel and | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
subscribes to some of the Etropean research operations, and it's | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
nowhere near a member of thd European Union. So I think that in | :33:44. | :33:52. | |
those terms, his point is wdll made. Would the Secretary of Statd repeat | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
for the House they guaranted he gave in Northern Ireland last wedk that | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
his Government will not seek to impose a hard border that would | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
restrict the free movement of people and labour between Northern Ireland | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
and the Irish Republic? And will the extent such a guarantee to Travolta | :34:09. | :34:25. | |
and Spain in that situation? I repeat the statement I made in | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
Northern Ireland last week. The soft border all the open border dxisted | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
before either as were members of the European union with different VAT | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
rate income tax. It seems to me given modern technology we can do | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
the same and design an immigration system which copes with it. I can | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
certainly reiterate what I said to Northern Ireland last week hn front | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
of the House. I warmly welcome at my right honourable friend to his new | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
post and for his statement, the first of what will no doubt be many | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
to this House. On the 22nd of June, the day before the referendtm, the | :35:06. | :35:13. | |
FTSE 100 closed at 6002 and in today it is over 6800 up. Does my right | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
honourable friend agree that this tells us all we need to know about | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
investor confidence in our future, that will we be better off ,- that | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
we will be better off outside the European Union? What it certainly | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
tells us is that the business community is not as afraid of this | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
great new opportunity we face as was claimed before the referendtm. I | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
don't want to disappear into rerunning arguments of the league | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
campaign though. Market movdments in stock markets are volatile `nd | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
small. Often, they reversed themselves. What doesn't reverse is | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
large inward investments and in the year in which our party comlitted to | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
a referendum, we have the l`rgest inward investment in our history. -- | :36:08. | :36:15. | |
had the largest. Khai has the Secretary of State that is clearly | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
referencing the Leave camping, because his statement was 14 minutes | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
of waffling and sound bites. For national consensus, that is | :36:24. | :36:30. | |
completely at odds with a f`ct that 62% of the electorate in Scotland | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
voted to Remain. This does not bode well -- well for meaningful input | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
from the Scottish Government. Kenny also confirm the claim made during | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
the campaign by his honourable member for North Somerset that | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
Scotland was suddenly have control of a whole new raft of powers | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
including immigration, or w`s that just PC nonsense? I don't think my | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
right honourable friend was referring to immigration, btt rather | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
to fishing, I suspect and what will certainly be the case is we will be | :37:03. | :37:10. | |
taking back control of UK fhshing. Can I also congratulate my right | :37:11. | :37:12. | |
honourable friend and Parli`mentary neighbour on his appointment, an | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
inspired choice. While he h`s been in the role these few weeks, has he | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
had an opportunity or seen `ny evidence of contingency planning | :37:26. | :37:27. | |
across any department in Whhtehall prior to the referendum that the | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
British public may potentially have voted to leave the European Union? | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
It strikes me that in a two horse race, it might have been and idea to | :37:39. | :37:44. | |
look at this possibility. Furthermore, given that will have to | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
look at the different laws `nd 12,000 plus EU regulations that will | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
affect our lives -- that affect our lives, what progress are thdy making | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
in ensuring we recruit the brightest minds to do this properly? Says my | :37:58. | :38:04. | |
department didn't exist before I arrived, it's really rather harder | :38:05. | :38:06. | |
to find documents that relate anything beforehand. There were | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
certainly planning done on the financial side to deal with any | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
financial turnarounds, becatse the bank and the Treasury undertook | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
certain measures. With respdct to the Department itself, I brtshed | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
across it, but it says something that the Department quadrupled in | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
size in August and he may rdmember what Whitehall is like in Atgust. We | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
are not short of applicants and we do have the brightest and bdst to | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
help us and us not just my department, but also in nathonal | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
trade as well, so I'm confident about that. In his statement, the | :38:45. | :38:53. | |
Secretary of State who are welcome to his post welcomed -- reaffirmed | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
the promise of the Chancellor that all structural and investment | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
projects signed before the @utumn Statement will be underwritten by | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
the Treasury as we leave. Btt we've a quandary of the people of greater | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
Manchester, because we've bden allocated until 2020, 300 ?22 | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
million in European structural investment funds, but ?159 lillion | :39:13. | :39:20. | |
of those have not yet been contracted. They're currently held | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
up in Whitehall departments, predominantly in the Departlent for | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
Work and Pensions. Can he ensure that the people of greater | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
Manchester get all ?322 million that's been allocated to it by the | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
European Union and not the lesser amount that's already been `pproved | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
by Government? What I will do is draw the request to the attdntion of | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
the Chancellor. I congratul`te my right honourable friend is | :39:49. | :39:50. | |
well-deserved appointment. 61% of the people of Kettering votdd to | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
Leave and they want to make sure he's the tools to finish thd job and | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
following a question from otr right honourable friend about staff | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
members come he says he's 180 of them at the moment, how manx does he | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
need and given that his dep`rtment no longer exist in two years, what | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
incentive is there for the brightest best civil servants who havd | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
long-term civil service carders in mind to join his department? And | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
what incentives are there to attract people into his department from the | :40:22. | :40:22. | |
private sector? We barely need an incentive, they | :40:23. | :40:32. | |
want to be at the centre of the most important, historic change hn what | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
is happening in the last decade or two or three. I don't think that is | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
a problem. Arrangements are being made precisely because we dhsappear | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
when the processes over to dnsure continuity and to ensure go | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
seamlessly back into the Whhtehall system, although I suspect `t the | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
end there will be more bids for them than that. Membership of thd EU | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
allows young people in Scotland freedom to live, learn and work in | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
Europe and they voted overwhelmingly to remain. What assurances can he | :41:06. | :41:13. | |
give to young people that these benefits and freedoms will be | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
retained after Brexit? It is a good question and I think I would expect | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
us to ensure that we get at least as least as good as those therd now. | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
One thing that is important in the European Union and in Britahn in | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
particular is we are a science superpower and have a fabulous | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
education system with some of the best universities in the world. We | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
have some of the best students in the world and we will reflect that | :41:43. | :41:51. | |
the outcome. I would like to congratulate my friend on hhs | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
position. Speaking as a parliamentarian who has not seen my | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
honourable friend in action it is an absolute pleasure to watch. I would | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
like my honourable friend to look into VAT. It was purchased tax | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
before 1973. Has fluctuated over the years. There are small businesses | :42:12. | :42:19. | |
that need a taper relief for VAT because when they hit the threshold | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
it can kill them off. I know, I was a small businessmen, I succdeded | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
through it but it was a problem Will he look into this for small | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
people of the UK. I will brhng the attention of the Treasury to it and | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
ensure we will think about ht through this process. Can I | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
congratulate my Parliamentary neighbour on his appointment. The | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
Humber S3 is fast becoming the energy estuary with Siemens | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
investing in Hull with the potential to export to the single market and | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
so trade deals with Australha will not cut it in Hull. I wondered if he | :42:58. | :43:03. | |
would agree to meet with a delegation from the Humber to ensure | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
the green energy industry bdnefits from the huge and exciting | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
opportunities the minister has talked about. How could I s`y no to | :43:12. | :43:20. | |
meet a delegation from the Humber. What I will say is Siemens was a | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
company that said they would continue investment in the TK, | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
something of a change from before the referendum. Yes, of course. I | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
was delighted to hear him s`y he had begun the huge task of going sector | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
by sector to assess challenges many parts of the British economx will | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
face. Can I ask him to add ` second column to the spreadsheet for | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
opportunities in those sectors may have and may arrive from Brdxit We | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
know from every industry and business we have worked in there | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
will be areas of promise from leaving particularly in terls of | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
getting away from onerous Etropean regulations that hold back British | :44:04. | :44:11. | |
economic sectors. Will he create a parallel process of assessing | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
regulations so that we can be in a good position when we leave? It is a | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
good point and we are on it already. The opportunity side of the | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
spreadsheet is integral to the process and some have reported back. | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
We are challenging something is coming back because you get a degree | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
of special pleading and so ht takes a little longer than just asking the | :44:37. | :44:43. | |
question but we are doing it. In June, vote to leave issued ` letter | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
co-signed by the Foreign Secretary and it was unequivocal that levels | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
of funding in constituencies like mine, that currently receivd would | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
continue post-Brexit. Will the Secretary of State repeat that | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
guaranteed today all was thd letter worthless? I said I am putthng in | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
the library the letter from the Chancellor on structural funds. | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
Exactly that. Can I welcome my right honourable friend to his pl`ce. One | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
of the greatest opportunitids for cornball presented by leaving is | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
reclaiming the UK's territorial fishing waters. Will he comlit to | :45:24. | :45:29. | |
not use this natural resource as a bargaining chip and embrace the | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
opportunities it could deliver to coastal communities around the UK? I | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
have never had so many attelpts to seduce me into making promises as I | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
have today. I said to his honourable friend already this would bd one of | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
the gains from the EU negothation. There may be internal negothations | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
and if he speaks to his own fishermen he will see what H mean. | :45:57. | :46:05. | |
In Renfrew show we voted 2-0 to remain. I wrote to offer support and | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
visited institutions in the summer recess. They are desperate for | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
information. Shamefully durhng the statement he offered nothing but | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
doubletalk and prevarication and when can businesses across | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
Renfrewshire expect more detail and what the government plans to spend | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
of the 350 million per week? I repeat what I have said. Thd | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
information will be available as we work through the process. If he | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
imagine this is a Lego block process that anybody can do it without | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
thinking about it, I suggest he looks again. In welcoming the | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
Secretary of State to his position could I ask him if he appreciates | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
the appetite of people in Scotland for a further independence | :46:59. | :47:00. | |
referendum and the way they might vote in such a referendum, hn large | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
part depends upon the response he and his government make to their | :47:06. | :47:11. | |
decision to reject by a large from the EU. We were promised in 201 | :47:12. | :47:17. | |
that Scotland would be respdcted within this United Kingdom. Can I | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
ask when proposals emerged that offer the prospect of different | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
arrangements between Scotland and the EU, when he listened to them and | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
consider them in good faith, or rejects them? Before I answdr, may I | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
apologise for the late return of his letter that he wrote to me darlier | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
in the summer but we tried to give him some facts. With respect to the | :47:41. | :47:51. | |
discussions with the devolvdd administration, and others, I would | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
say there is a joint ministdrial committee of which the First | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
Minister has been offered a place, or her nominee, which ever she | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
wishes. That will be the process by which we look at all propos`ls. The | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
Prime Minister said we will look at all proposals. The one he stggests, | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
I cannot see how it would work. But we will look at it. I have to say up | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
front, as I said to the First Minister, I cannot see how that can | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
be made to work. I congratulate the right honourable gentleman on his | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
appointment. On immigration control, can he indicate whether it hs the | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
position of the government to continue to differentiate in future | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
between entry restrictions for citizens of the EU and for those | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
from outside the EU? All I can say is this, my task is to get the | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
control of that process back to the government and to Parliament. It is | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
for Parliament to decide how they use it. The simple truth is I expect | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
us to see a more evenhanded policy than we have now, but we must wait | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
until the negotiation is colplete. It is clear on these benches the | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
government's handling of thd withdrawal from the EU has been | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
nothing short of a disgrace and the lack of leadership shown by the new | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
Prime Minister has done nothing to quell the fears of UK citizdns and | :49:27. | :49:36. | |
EU nationals. Does he agree the only person who has shown leadership and | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
forward thinking on Brexit hs the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
Sturgeon? What I thought shd was going to say was Ruth Davison, who | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
won the popularity contest this time around. I have to say something else | :49:51. | :49:58. | |
about the Scottish Nationalhst approach. Our new Prime Minhster, | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
before she did her reshuffld, went to Scotland to see the First | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
Minister. How much more respect you can pay another politician than that | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
I do not know and what grathtude do we get? Walk we have just hdard I | :50:11. | :50:20. | |
will let the house in on a secret. In 2008, when the Secretary of State | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
resigned over civil libertids I sent him an e-mail as a young 22,year-old | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
wishing him the best in that election. I have been an adlirer | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
despite our differences since then. But I am disappointed with the | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
weakness in the statement ghven today. My constituency voted over | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
70% to remain, the highest hn Glasgow. They will expect md to get | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
the best deal in the circumstances we are in and with that in lind can | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
he outline what powers he envisages the Scottish Parliament will gain as | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
a result of Brexit and when he expects those powers to be | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
implemented? It depends on what is agreed in the negotiations. The | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
second thing I will say is this The undertaking given was to do | :51:12. | :51:19. | |
everything possible to protdct all interests of all parts of the UK and | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
Scotland of course at the front rank of those people. That is wh`t will | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
happen. The issue is not about giving powers to politicians, but | :51:32. | :51:33. | |
looking after the interests of the people. That is what will h`ppen. We | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
will look after the interests of everybody in the UK, includhng | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
Scotland. I thank the Secretary of State. The opposition front bench | :51:47. | :51:54. | |
spokespersons and all 85 backbenchers who have the | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
opportunity to question the right honourable gentleman. I am sure | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
there will be other instalmdnts to follow. Order. Statement, the | :52:02. | :52:10. | |
Secretary of State for health. Secretary Jeremy Hunt. Thank you, Mr | :52:11. | :52:19. | |
Speaker. I regret to inform the house last week the British Medical | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
Association announced they were initiating further rounds of | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
industrial action over the junior doctors contract, which involves a | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
serious of week-long all-out strikes between now and Christmas, scheduled | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
to start next Monday, althotgh this afternoon the BMA have delaxed the | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
first strike until 5th of October. The news delaying the first strike | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
is welcome. We must not let it obscure the fact the remainhng | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
planned industrial action is unprecedented in length and | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
severity. And it will be dalaging for patients, some of whom will | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
already have had operations cancelled. Any NHS organisations, | :53:00. | :53:08. | |
including NHS England and NHS Improvement, had expressed concern | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
about the impact on patient safety. This morning the General medical | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
Council published advice to doctors on the strike action. While | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
recognising a doctor's legal right to take action, they urged `ll | :53:23. | :53:28. | |
doctors in training to conshder the implications for patients, saying | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
given the scale and repeated nature of what is proposed, we belheve that | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
despite everyone's best efforts patients will suffer. Others have | :53:37. | :53:43. | |
questioned whether escalating strikes is a proportionate or | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
reasonable response to a contract that the BMA junior doctors leader | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
personally negotiated and stpported in Maine. She said then that the new | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
contract was safer for our patients, safer for our junior doctors and | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
also fair and she said with respect to junior doctors the contr`ct | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
values their time and values them as part of the workforce, will reduce | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
the problem of recruitment `nd retention, emphasises all doctors | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
are equal and has put together a good package of things for | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
equalities. Since these comlents the new contract was rejected in a | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
ballot of BMA members, but ht is perplexing for patients, NHS leaders | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
and the government that the reaction of the BMA leadership who previously | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
supported the contract is now to initiate the most extreme strike | :54:40. | :54:47. | |
action in NHS history, inflhcting this on patients up and down the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
country. We anticipate 100,000 elective operations will be affected | :54:52. | :55:00. | |
and many appointments postponed Today I want to reassure thd house | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
that the government and NHS is working around the clock to make | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
preparations for the strikes. All hospitals will review rotors to | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
ensure critical services such as A, neonatal services are | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
maintained. The priority of all NHS organisations is to ensure patients | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
have access to health care `nd the risks to patients are minimhsed but | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
the impact of such long strhkes will test this. As with previous strikes, | :55:29. | :55:36. | |
we cannot give an absolute guarantee patients will be safe, but hospitals | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
will bust a gut to look aftdr patients in this situation `nd | :55:43. | :55:44. | |
communicate with people whose care is likely to be affected. Ttrning to | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
the long-term causes of the dispute it is clear for the BMA negotiators | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
it has been largely about p`y but I recognise for the majority of junior | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
doctors there are a broader range of concerns, including training | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
structure, ability to sustahn family life during training, pay g`ps and | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
rotor gaps. We set up a strtctured process to look at these concerns | :56:12. | :56:19. | |
outside the contract and I hnternet to continue. NHS England has | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
undertaken work to allow cotples to train in the same area, to offer | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
placements for those with c`ring responsibilities close to home, to | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
introduce a catch-up progralme for doctors who take maternity leave or | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
time offer other caring responsibilities and to look at the | :56:37. | :56:39. | |
concerns of doctors in their first year of foundation training. | :56:40. | :56:48. | |
We are proceeding with a gender pay review that I mentioned in ly last | :56:49. | :56:55. | |
statement on this issue. We've also responded to specific concerns | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
raised by the BMA. Firstly, the BMA and health education England have | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
agreed to changes to strengthen whistle-blower protections for | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
junior doctors beyond the scope of existing legislation. This hs so | :57:09. | :57:15. | |
they can take legal action `gainst whistle-blowing. Secondly, hn direct | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
response to concerns raised over the role of the independent guardians of | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
safe working hours, NHS employers to set out in considerable det`il the | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
expectations for the new Gu`rdian role. As of the 2nd of Septdmber 186 | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
out of 217 guardians have bden appointed with the involvemdnt of | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
BMA representatives with a further 15 interim arrangements in place. | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
It's expected that all will be appointed by the middle of this | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
month. Many junior doctors have expressed concern about rotor gaps | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
and a new contract sinologist and tackles this concern. The gtardians | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
of safe working hours will report to just an foundation trust bo`rds on | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
the issue of rotor gaps within a junior doctors and this will shine a | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
light on the issue and it whll be escalator, potentially to the sea QC | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
and the GMC, where serious hssues are not addressed. I would strongly | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
in -- asked those take industrial action to consider this progress | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
before making a final decishon. And with respect to the broader debate | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
about seven day care, we do recognise that many doctors have | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
concerns about precisely wh`t is meant by a seven-day NHS. As Sir | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
David Dalton stated publiclx last week, we offer to insert details of | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
our plans into the may agredment, but this was rejected by thd BMA. It | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
is very disappointing that they now say the need for more clarity of a | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
seven-day services is one of the reasons for the strike. The given | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
they've said that, I would like to repeat further reassurances on that | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
front today. Firstly, whilst the changes to the junior doctors and | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
their contract cost is mutu`l and is the current table which will not go | :59:03. | :59:13. | |
up or down our seven-day services policy is not cost neutral `nd will | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
be funded out of the additional ?10 billion provided to the NHS by this | :59:17. | :59:18. | |
Parliament. Secondly, whilst the people for the coroner Bob junior | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
doctors will not increase, we do expect the overall bill to go up as | :59:22. | :59:23. | |
we have committed to employde many more doctors to help meet otr | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
commitment seven-day servicds. That means our plans are not predicated | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
on simply stretching the exhsting workforce thinner or die looting | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
weekday cover. Thirdly, we recognise that junior doctors worked very hard | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
already including evenings `nd weekends and whilst we do nded to | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
reduce weekend premium rates which make it difficult to deploy the | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
direct medical cover, this hs great implications for the working | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
patterns of the workforce groups including consultants and dhagnostic | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
staff. Finally, we have no role power in our trust to incre`se | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
elective care we can. Our sdven day services policy is focused on | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
meeting clinical standards relating to urgent and emergency card, | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
meaning of vulnerable patients on hospital wards at weekends will get | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
checked more regularly in w`rd rounds by clinicians and patients | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
will be able to order test results for their patients at weekends. | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Despite his reassurances, there may remain honest differences of | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
opinions on seven-day care, but the way to resolve this issue | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
cooperation and dialogue, not confrontation and strikes, harm | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
patients. To those who say these changes are demoralising thd NHS | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
workforce, I simply say that nothing is more demoralising or mord | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
polarising than a damaging strike it is not too late to turn dechsively | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
away from the path of confrontation and put patients first and H urge | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
everyone to consider how thdir own individual actions in the coming | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
months will impact on the pdople who desperately need the servicds of our | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
NHS. This Government will not waver in our commitment to make the NHS is | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
the safest, highest quality health care system in the world and I | :01:08. | :01:14. | |
commend this statement to the House. The prospect of a rolling fhve-day | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
strike by junior doctors was one of the utmost gravity. The junhor | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
doctors have suspended next week's action, which is I step I bdlieve | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
the whole House welcomes. Btt there really programme of industrhal | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
action stays in place. If it eventually goes ahead, it whll be | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
the first such strike by junior doctors in the entire history of the | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
NHS. And what the current shtuation shows is that there's been ` | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
complete breakdown in trust between junior doctors and the Government. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
The morale of junior doctors could not be lower and that's not | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
something for the Secretary of State to dismiss. But somehow, he | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
continues to take no responsibility for the current state of affairs, no | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
responsibility for repeatedly arguing the only problem was doctors | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
had not read the contract, no responsibility for the misldading | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
use of statistics by claiming that thousands of patients were dying | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
because of bad weekend care. The president of the... Said despite | :02:23. | :02:30. | |
concerns raised by senior officials, Jeremy Hunt persisted in ushng | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
dubious evidence about the so-called weekend effects to impose a damaging | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
junior doctor contracts unddr the bogus guise of patient safety. And | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
he still insists the contract is about a seven-day NHS when we now | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
know it is -- its own offichals were telling him the NHS had too few | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
staff and too little money to deliver what he was talking about. | :02:56. | :03:02. | |
But the Secretary of State well know was that the public simply don't | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
believe him in his attempts to demonise the junior doctors, try as | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
he mind. He has failed to convince the public that somehow junhor | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
doctors or mere dupes or thd enemy within or dupes of the BMA. Far from | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
being manipulated, doctors voted emphatically against the new | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
contracts. Everyone in this House will remember the 77 bombings on the | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
number 30 bus which exploded in Tavistock Square a few yards from | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
the BMA. Everyone will remelber the pictures of doctors pouring out of | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
our building and heading for the 14 dead people and the 110 victims | :03:46. | :03:52. | |
without flinching, or faltering in fulfilling the location of saving | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
lives. These are the people the Secretary of State seeks to vilify. | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
Today we know the junior doctors are contrary to what he implied have | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
always made patient safety ` top priority have cancelled the action | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
plans for next Monday, but ht where going to remove the threat of | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
industrial action the Secretary of State has to answer questions. There | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
are widespread reports of fhnancial crisis and deficit and how can the | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
NHS move to enhance seven-d`y week working even with the proposed 0 | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
billion mentioned in a statdment, whether or not -- whether or not | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
resuscitate him the status puo? I welcome the structure would allow | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
Sally contract about lifework balance, gender pay gap, wrote gaps, | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
strengthening protection for junior doctors and looking at the role of | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
guardians of safe working hours But the Secretary of State said in his | :04:44. | :04:52. | |
statement and talked about confrontation. What could bd more | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
confrontational than seeking to impose a contract? Even at this late | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
stage, I would like to ask him a if he will listen to the junior | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
doctor's leader when she saxs we have a simple thing to ask the | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
Government, stop the imposition and if they agree to do this, the junior | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
doctors can call of industrhal action. The public is looking for | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
the Secretary of State to try and meet the junior doctors, stop | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
vilifying, stop pretending they re the enemy within and meet their | :05:28. | :05:36. | |
reasonable demands. I will respond to comments, but she needs to be | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
very, very clear to the House what the implications of Labour's | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
position on this is. Becausd she just said now that she welcomed the | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
suspension of industrial action next week. That wasn't a position at the | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
weekend. At the weekend, whdn the medical Royal colleges and the | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
General Medical Council even the Observer criticised the proposed | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
strike, what will she say? She was saying she would join them on the | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
picket line. Some think a predecessor refused to do. The fact | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
is strikes cause harm, misery and despair for families up and down the | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
country, but when one of thd most extreme members of the BMA Dxecutive | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
said the strikes were the shngle mother positive things that have | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
occurred in NHS politics of the last few decades, what was Labour's | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
response? Did they condemn ` question or no. The Shadow | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
Chancellor invited him to advise and live on policy. I say this | :06:34. | :06:41. | |
because... Can I just emphasise there is no concept of giving way in | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
respect of a statesman. Thotgh this may resemble the debate to those | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
attending all proceedings from a beyond the confines of the chamber, | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
it is a statement, with a rdsponse. There are no interventions. | :06:57. | :07:08. | |
Thank you. Kaiser said to the Shadow Health Secretary, she needs to | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
recognise that working people, the people out party claim to rdpresent | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
need a seven-day NHS. They `re very vulnerable people Labour cl`im to | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
represent do get admitted to hospital at weekends and in | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
industrial disputes, patients should always matter more than polhtics and | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
the next time she meets a constituent who has suffered because | :07:32. | :07:34. | |
of not having a seven-day sdrvice because an operation has bedn | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
cancelled because of a strike, she and her colleagues should h`ng their | :07:38. | :07:44. | |
heads in shame. She talks about .. She used stronger words. Shd used | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
words like vilifying, demonhsing the junior doctor workforce which is a | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
very, very serious thing to say I would challenge to find a shngle of | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
evidence that that has come from, me or anyone in the Government. If she | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
can't, she needs to withdraw those comments and apologise to the House. | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
The fact is, the single most demoralising thing for the NHS | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
workforce is strikes. Because they entrench and hardened posithons | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
people get very, very angry and it becomes much, much harder to find a | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
consensus. She also talks about the use of statistics. She doesn't have | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
to listen to what I say and I understand she may not want to, but | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
there are eight academic sttdies in the last five years that described | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
increased mortality rates for people admitted to hospitals at wedkends, | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
to which responds, the actu`l phrase she used another context was very is | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
zero empirical evidence for a weekend effect. I will cauthon her, | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
because that approach to hard data is exactly what happened at mid | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
Staffs when hard evidence w`s swept under the carpet year after year, | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
because it was politically inconvenient and this Government | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
will not be dismissed it. Fhnally she said that my civil serv`nts | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
apparently advised me that this policy wouldn't work. Not at all. | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
What happens with every Govdrnment policy, and you would expect this, | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
is that small civil servants kick every aspect of the policy so we | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
understand the risks. She dhdn't mention the same document she | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
referred to actually says wd are on track for delivering the fotr | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
clinical seven-day standards to 70% of the country by next April. That's | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
something I think her consthtuency, even if she won't, will welcome | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
These strikes are going to harm patients, damage the NHS and make it | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
harder, not easier, to resolve the challenges facing junior doctors. | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
Labour today has chosen polhtical opportunity, we will do the right | :09:50. | :09:58. | |
thing for patients. Does my right honourable member agree that it has | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
been an indefensible anomalx for many years that the NHS so reduces | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
its services at the weekend when the patients who it serves our | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
vulnerable to urgent or emergency conditions or needy high st`ndards | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
of care for chronic conditions on a seven-day basis. So will yot | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
continue what he describes, his careful progress, and making it | :10:20. | :10:22. | |
clear that the seven-day service is not going to do just all rottine | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
work, that it is going to bd introduced as resources and staffing | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
allow in line with civilised conditions and furthermore, on the | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
strange politics of the dispute that keeps coming back to haunt him, does | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
he agree with me that whilst the BMA has always been one of our lost | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
militant trade unions and whilst the Labour Party has been very left wing | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
in his leadership before, most notably in the 1980s, it is almost | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
inconceivable that at any thme in the past, such extreme and lilitant | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
action, which threatens pathents, would have been supported bx the BMA | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
all the Labour Party, opposhng a contract which was being pr`ised as | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
a sensible settlement and for the improvement it offered by the union | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
leaders only to or three months ago. As ever he speaks wisely. That last | :11:16. | :11:30. | |
comment is the nub of why this is so totally extraordinary, and | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
completely not acceptable. Ht is true and we have to accept junior | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
doctors rejected the agreemdnt in May in a ballot and all sorts of | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
reasons why that happened. The choice to escalate this acthon to | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
the worst strike in NHS history was a choice made not by junior doctors | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
but by the BMA leaders and they made it about a contract they thdmselves | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
said was safer for doctors `nd patients only in May. How c`n they | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
justify that if it isn't fr`nkly from some desire to pick a big | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
fight? We were making good progress over the summer with a serids of | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
dialogues in different areas to resolve some of the non-contractual | :12:16. | :12:24. | |
issues. This makes that virtually impossible to progress with although | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
we will continue to try. He is right, it is damaging for p`tients | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
and I am having to go through some of the same battles as he dhd as | :12:34. | :12:41. | |
Health Secretary. I know how difficult it will be for junior | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
doctors to take part in the strikes. I am really sad we have comd to this | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
point. Does the Secretary of State recognise the anger and desperation | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
that has led us to this point on junior doctors? Two things stand out | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
in my mailbag from junior doctors and one is the threat of imposition | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
was there right from the word go last summer. To them it alw`ys felt | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
like a threat and not a negotiation. The other is the misuse of numerical | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
statistical data to translate that and claim avoidable deaths `t | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
weekends when there has not been any evidence of avoidable deaths and the | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
Secretary of State has not commissioned a review of cases that | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
might show how many of thosd deaths were avoidable and where did a lack | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
of junior doctors contributd? The danger in the NHS is rotor gaps | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
Doctors asked to do double shifts, or to carry two pagers which means | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
where they should be to doctors covering an area or service there is | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
one, that is a danger right now The Secretary of State talks about | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
making it clear he would employ extra junior doctors, not spreading | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
the same thinner, but where does he plan to get them where we c`nnot | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
fill posts we have at the moment? I welcome the focus on the fotr | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
clinical standards that boil down to greater senior doctor review and | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
access to diagnostics. Does he not think we might have got further if | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
that was where we started l`st summer? He calls for a turn away | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
from strikes and to get round the table and discuss, so when hs the | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
Secretary of State meeting with junior doctors to try to avdrt the | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
strikes? She is a doctor and I would say that as I said to the Shadow | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
Health Secretary that she ndeds to justify these claims she constantly | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
makes in this chamber about a misuse of statistics. I have been clear | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
about when we can statistic`lly say a death is avoidable or when what | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
studies demonstrate clearly is that there are higher numbers of people | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
dying from weekend and ambitions than you would expect. -- wdekend | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
admissions. We will not ignore those numbers backed up in study `fter | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
study. That is the right thhng to do and as a doctor she should recognise | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
that. She also said that thd government should lift plans to | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
impose the contract and get round the table and negotiate. I think | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
today might have been a momdnt when she could have given the government | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
credit for doing that in Max, when we thought there was an opportunity | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
to do a deal because we lifted the imposition of the contract `nd | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
negotiated a deal that turndd out to be a good deal on all sides. The | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
problem is having done that, the same people we negotiated the deal | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
with have decided to call the most extreme strike in NHS history. That | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
is not acceptable. With respect to rotor gaps, that is a probldm and we | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
are trying to address it by making sure we have systems where junior | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
doctors come though the whistle if they think rotor gaps are not safe | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
for patients which is what the guardians are we have set up. | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
Secondly, how can we make stre there are people to fill the gap hs? By | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
training more doctors, which is why in this parliament we are training | :16:23. | :16:28. | |
in 11,420 more doctors than in the previous parliament and why we have | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
9000 more doctors than we h`d in 2010. As a doctor, those ard things | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
she should recognise. I am keen to accommodate everybody who w`nts to | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
take part but is it not unrdasonable with a small number to hope that we | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
conclude these exchanges at the latest by 7:15pm. Brevity is the | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
essence, we need short questions and answers. I welcome the BMA | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
suspension of next week's d`maging action will stop is clear from their | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
statement thousands of doctors had said they wanted to keep thdir | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
patients say. They will know you cannot keep a patient safe with five | :17:14. | :17:20. | |
days rolling walk-outs. Will the Secretary of State join me hn asking | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
the BMA to ballot members to hear their views before they proceed with | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
their proposed further damaging five-day walk-outs? I do thhnk that | :17:30. | :17:37. | |
the BMA should talk to their own members more because as far as I | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
could tell, the consultation over the summer showed only a minority | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
actually wanted this very extreme series of rolling one week | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
suspensions of labour that they in the end supported. I think lost | :17:54. | :18:00. | |
junior doctors are perplexed and worried about the situation and | :18:01. | :18:07. | |
would love to find a solution. There was a bitter industrial dispute but | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
we started a process where trust was rebuilt. We had meetings. I met the | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
junior doctors leader to talk through the areas of her grdatest | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
concern and we made progress in addressing two of the four | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
outstanding areas she talked about but building trust mean sitting | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
around the table and talking and not having confrontational strikes. I | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
think that is what most junhor doctors want as well. Can I return | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
to the critical issue of how we ensure safe cover during thd week if | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
we are expecting doctors to work more hours at weekends. The | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
Secretary of State repeated he will employ more junior doctors but what | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
is the timescale? How many net increase in doctors will thdre be | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
this year and next year and in the rest of the parliament? I don't have | :18:57. | :19:04. | |
figures to hand for this ye`r but I will let the right honourable | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
gentleman know. It is around 11 500 extra doctors trained in thhs | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
Parliament. It is important to recognise that it is not just junior | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
doctors that will be part of the change. We need more consultant | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
cover at the weekend and more people able to do diagnostic tests is, a | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
range of people who can improve standards of care at the wedkend who | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
need to take part in this change. Can I congratulate my right | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
honourable friend on the re`sonable yet resolute approach he has taken | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
throughout the negotiations reflected in the fact that the | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
leaders of so many Royal colleges chose to criticise the decision to | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
go on strike and therefore the suspension of that action is | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
welcome. He makes the point there are standards that will be hmproved | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
as a result of the move to ` seven-day NHS. Can he enlighten the | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
house which types of patient in which circumstances will benefit as | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
a result of his drive to improve patient care? I am happy to do that. | :20:06. | :20:12. | |
I am delighted to take a qudstion from him, because I sometimds think | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
when you have long departed the office, it is when people appreciate | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
big and important changes wdre made and that was the case from his | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
tenure as Secretary of Statd for Education. Clinical standards, one | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
of them is people admitted `t weekends should be seen by ` senior | :20:33. | :20:38. | |
doctor, a consultant or expdrienced junior doctor within 14 hours. They | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
will be seen by a doctor sooner than that but they should be seen by | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
someone experienced to know if there is something to worry about within | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
14 hours which happens at most places during the week, it does not | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
happen that many places at the weekend. The most vulnerabld | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
patients, there is a risk of them going downhill and this is not the | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
clinical term but what doctors say is it is the spotting of people | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
going downhill that is important and they should be checked at ldast | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
twice a day by someone experienced. They are two of the four clhnical | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
standards we want to reassure all constituents are in place. We think | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
that will make a big differdnce The Health Secretary will know over the | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
summer a worrying number of A and maternity departments have been | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
closed or downgraded becausd they simply can't get the junior doctors | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
they need. Chorley, Ealing, Stafford, I could go on. If it is | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
the case we are training more junior doctors, why do we still have this | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
problem? Because we have prdssures in the NHS that mean there hs a need | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
for more doctors for all re`sons and at the moment we do not havd as many | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
as we need and that is why this government is trading more, that is | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
why we are putting in an extra 10 billion into the NHS. The m`nifesto | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
she stood on was not putting that level of funding in and it would | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
have meant we were not able to train that number of extra doctors. I am | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
afraid it takes time and whhle we are getting there we need to ensure | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
services are safe. Can I congratulate him for the balanced | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
and reasonable approach he has taken to the negotiations, despitd | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
provocation from people who should know better. Would he agree that in | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
the history of the NHS therd cannot have been a single location other | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
than this when the GMC has had to intervene, the body responshble for | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
professional standards, to stop a strike? Would he and it we light | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
have underscored the centrality of Bruce Keogh's clinical standards | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
more when introducing the notion of a seven-day NHS? With respect to his | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
last point I would say we h`ve been clear from the outset what we mean | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
by a seven-day NHS in hospital care but there has been a huge alount of | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
misinformation will stop thhs time last year the BMA told a lot of | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
people are plans were to cut their pay by between 30% and 50%. That is | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
why strikes are damaging because positions get entrenched on both | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
sides. Sometimes misinformation goes out that causes anxiety and | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
misunderstanding. I agree about the GMC intervention. It is significant | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
will stop they are independdnt, they are the medical regulator and they | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
are clear doctors have a responsibility not to take ` | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
decision that means one of their patients get harmed. As the | :23:55. | :24:03. | |
Secretary of State knows, bdfore taking up office in June I have been | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
an emergency medicine junior doctor on the front line for the l`st 1 | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
years. Today doctors have lhstened and stopped their strike action | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
Putting patient safety first. This is not the first time I havd stood | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
before you to say I worry that the imposition of the contract hs not | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
putting patient safety first. You can train all the extra doctors you | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
wish but the current junior doctors are leaving. The risk of having the | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
contract imposed is causing them to leave and move to Australia and | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
further afield. I maintain xou cannot create a safe seven-day NHS | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
on a five-day overstretched team. The rotor gaps approved this is | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
happening. Today doctors have listen. Will he listen and stop the | :24:54. | :25:01. | |
imposition, please? Can I thank her for what she did alongside lany | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
colleagues working in A departments over many years? It is a | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
wrong characterisation when she calls it an imposition in tdrms of | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
what happened because this was an agreed contract, and it was | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
recommended and supported bx the leaders of the BMA. We had lany | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
discussions in this House about whether negotiations were possible, | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
what I should do, there werd a range of views. I did listen as she has | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
asked I sat down and negoti`ted a deal and it was supported bx the | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
leaders of the BMA, which is why it is incomprehensible, those same | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
leaders have now called the most extreme strike in NHS history. Can I | :25:48. | :25:57. | |
put it to him the choice for doctors in training is whether they have the | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
old contract or agreed contract I have not had a single letter from | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
one of my doctors who say they think the old contract is better for them, | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
the health service or patients. Can I make the recommendation they sign | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
up willingly to the new contract, start discussions with the BMA and | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
Royal colleges on what should happen in a few years when the contract | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
comes up for review and work on improving the contractual shtuation | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
that my honourable friend h`s provided a good lead on? | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
I right honourable friend w`s right. The BMA satisfy themselves with | :26:36. | :26:44. | |
respect to the concerns that many junior doctors have about the | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
working conditions, many of which I accept our legitimate, we'd done | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
everything we could do inside a contract -- at our legitimate. There | :26:54. | :27:05. | |
was things about people being sent to a different city from thdir | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
partner and how bad I was for family life. There were other things which | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
need frankly sorting out and since the introduction of working time | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
directive, have got a lot worse and people do want to go back to the | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
excessive hours bit for. Those are things working through. Thotgh you | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
do that is to dialogue, not confrontation, why this -- which is | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
why this is a step by Woods. Editor weakness of his argument th`t it is | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
just conceivable that he is wrong about imposing a settlement on a | :27:41. | :27:48. | |
seven-day week for the NHS? It takes two to cause a strike and that is | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
why he should look at this proposal again. He is very airy fairx about | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
training these doctors for the future. It has not been clinically | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
correct at all. He's heard from people that recently worked there. | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
Why doesn't he reassess the seven-day week, get round the table, | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
stop imposing a settlement `nd, to a negotiated agreement. -- and, to a | :28:16. | :28:26. | |
negotiated agreement. With great respect, if I am wrong, so `re the | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
leaders of BMA. They said it was a good contract, save of the doctors, | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
good for equalities, good for the NHS and a whole range of thhngs And | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
the contract we are proceedhng with, is one of the doctors said was a | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
good deal for junior doctors. And I think on that basis if we are to | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
resolve this, that is the contract we should proceed with. Can express | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
my strong support for the Sdcretary of State, not just the meastred way | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
in which he has handled the statement today, but also the way | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
he's conducted negotiations and evidenced by the 100 plus | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
concessions made to doctors over the last four years. Is an inevhtable | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
logic of suspending strikes by the BMA which I warmly welcome the | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
honour the medical professions that this should be applied in exactly | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
the same way to the other strikes that have been called? Becatse the | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
same logic will apply. Wouldn't it be best, but the reputation of the | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
BMA to call off the rest of the strikes, work with the Government | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
and the other noncontractual areas needing to be dealt with so that we | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
can move forward from this, and this period of confrontation and get the | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
health service that we all believe in and in some of this sillx | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
rhetoric on the other side that suggests we on this side of the | :29:51. | :29:57. | |
leaving the NHS. Thank you. I just want to take this moment to say how | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
much I enjoyed working with my right honourable friend when he w`s | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
working with me last year and then as now, his advice and thoughts are | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
very, very wise. The number of concessions, it is 107 concdssions | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
that the Government has madd. The BMA may like to think what signal it | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
sends if you make 107 concessions, come to an agreement with union | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
leadership and the reaction then is to call the most extreme strike in | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
history. What encouragement will I give to other Government ministers | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
to be moderate and reasonable in negotiations with unions? It is a | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
preposterous position to take, frankly, and I think there were | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
many, many of the choices they could have made in terms of dealing with | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
the way off the ballot, but he's absolutely right in what he says. Mr | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
Speaker, it is lack the workforce planning and weak financial | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
management that later staff shortages which had been a lajor | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
contributor to this dispute. The Department of Health accounts and | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
NHS England accounts which came 21st of July underlined that weakness and | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
financial planning with the control and auditor general saying clearly | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
that he had real concerns about future sustainability of NHS | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
funding. Yet we've had the Secretary of State say again today th`t the | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
tending in pounds available is to solve the issue around the seven-day | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
NHS and we've other promise for many other things by the head of image as | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
England. Does he really havd a plan for financial sustainabilitx in the | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
NHS and so, what is it? We do and we are implementing it. I know it's | :31:35. | :31:45. | |
something she's looked at in detail. In broad terms, what happendd for | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
the tragedy at mid Staffs, the NHS is honest that some of the poorer | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
care that was happening in other places. NHS trusts decided they need | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
more stuff on the hospital wards. But because of the bad workforce | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
planning she'd talked about the goes by many decades in the NHS, the | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
result was an explosion in the use of agency staff going up to three | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
and a half billion in the l`st financial year, which has ptt huge | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
pressure on finances and we must take away from this not just that | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
the junior doctors and the strike, but from the point of view of | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
financial sustainability and see that we need to better training up | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
the numbers of doctors and nurses we need. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In | :32:26. | :32:36. | |
other words, to qualified as a medical doctor so can I ask a | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
question about democratic m`ndates? I appreciate that unlike a | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
referendum, a general does not give an entirely specific mandatd on | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
every proposal put forward, but will be Secretary of State take the | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
opportunity to remind the House and the country how central the proposal | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
for a seven day a week NHS was to the Conservative manifesto proposals | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
as far as it did, was concerned He's absolutely right. It w`s our | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
only substantive promise in terms of a commitment to the NHS at the last | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
election. And it's something we are funding. We have absolute obligation | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
to the British people to deliver and I think that is the reason why in | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
that short period after the last election that I felt I'd bedn very | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
clear with BMA that we were going to deliver on this manifesto promised | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
and I think if they'd reflected on that, they may have behaved | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
differently to the way they did In light of the ongoing disputd and | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
concerns about the safety of patients, as the Secretary of State | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
given any consideration to the idea of compulsory independent | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
arbitration, biding on both sides to settle disputes where public and is | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
patient safety is in disputd, with the minister look at that? H don't | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
think that's the way forward. I had the best way to solve these disputes | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
is an agreed solution and that is what we had. I think that's why it's | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
so disappointing that just by having an agreed solution that the BMA have | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
chosen not to try and work to implement that solution that was | :34:21. | :34:29. | |
agreed. Last Thursday I was at the Queen's hospital having a procedure, | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
Henderson my black eye. I'm an utterly junior doctors and | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
consultants, but also patients and can I tell my right honourable | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
friend how concerned they are having this series of strikes and they | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
don't understand it as one junior doctor said to me. He may or may not | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
have been the minority, but he was the previous BMA representative for | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
junior doctors and he told le this was a good deal for junior doctors | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
and I wrote that note down `t the time. But one point that was made to | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
me was that this constant ddfence of BMA action by the party opposite and | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
in particular, the spokesman opposite, is regarded as behng | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
encouragement for this strike, whether she means to do this or not. | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
Can I urge the flu you Mr Speaker to say, look, it isn't good enough Is | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
not good enough for patients or for the NHS. He's absolutely right and I | :35:29. | :35:36. | |
think all of us in this deb`te have won a simple thing we have to think | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
which is what is the right `nswer for the people we represent? They | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
understand their financial constraints and that the NHS cannot | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
do everything, but they want us to strive to make it safer and better | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
the whole time and I must s`y, is actually a surprise and | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
disappointment that we don't hear more of a language from the party | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
opposite. My constituents or patients don't want this strike and | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
my constituents who are doctors don't I believe what this industrial | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
action. It is the case that only four percent of doctors do support | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
this escalation, should the BMA really check their mandate `gain? | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
They absolutely should. I think they've been out of step with both | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
the British public and their own members this week, but his own | :36:21. | :36:28. | |
hospital in Hereford is in special measures and has huge numbers of | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
problems which they are working hard to sort out and we are helphng them. | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
Isn't that what we should bd focusing on the NHS rather than | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
doing contingency planning for these damaging strikes? Does the Secretary | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
of State agreed me that the actions of the BMA in backing the contract | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
in a male economy in August and call for these extreme strikes sdriously | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
damaged his credibility? And on the issue of pay which we know from the | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
leaked messages is the only red line, can he come form -- confirm no | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
doctor working legal hours will be paid less? I can absolutely confirm | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
that, because we put in place pay protection to make that happen. I | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
think he is absolutely right, that this is a very, very damaging thing | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
for his constituents in Cheltenham and again, there is so much pressure | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
in the NHS that the junior doctors thinking of striking have to ask | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
themselves whether it is re`lly going to help their organis`tion | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
respond to those pressures hf they have this enormous distracthon, this | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
incredible demoralisation you get with these kind of strikes. Does my | :37:34. | :37:42. | |
right honourable friend show my disappointment that the BMA leader | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
who co-authored the new contract and said it was beneficial for our | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
patients and junior doctors is now trying to whip up support for a | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
series of strikes that everx credible medical leader has said it | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
would be disproportionate and harmful to patients? I am extremely | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
disappointed and I hope she reconsiders. | :38:05. | :38:17. | |
Mr Speaker, is very serious that these strikes are occurring and | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
being called off, especiallx against this contract. What I do qudstion is | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
the fight that one of my constituents who is a doctor and who | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
is actually the chair man of doctors of Unite and the deputy chahrman of | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
the BMA actually stated in the Sunday Times that this could be used | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
to make -- for the Tories to save you make in a country great again. | :38:46. | :38:47. | |
Anything is appalling that patients being used as pawns in a political | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
game. Would my honourable friend agree with me? Completely. H'm | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
afraid this is where I am vdry disappointed that the party | :39:02. | :39:03. | |
opposite, the thrill that they may beat have so many supporters of the | :39:04. | :39:09. | |
Labour Party leader in the lore extreme ranks of the BMA, it helps | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
no one to try and use the NHS as a political pawn as they tried so | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
destructively to do before the last election. The General Hospital is | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
under pressure on a number of friends and if that action doesn't | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
take place, the threat diverts key personnel from their tasks to | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
contingency planning, filling rotors and making sure patients st`y self. | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
Microseconds possible. Wouldn't he agree that even the threat of | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
industrial action does huge harm to hospitals and the NHS? I'm lore than | :39:42. | :39:49. | |
happy to agree and the staff work extremely hard. One shudders to | :39:50. | :39:57. | |
think what the impact would be if you remove a third of the doctor | :39:58. | :40:04. | |
workforce in a hospital likd that. I'm just reading an article from the | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
Guardian earlier this year which says Saturday working give the major | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
sticking point in the dispute with the junior doctors. Does thd | :40:14. | :40:15. | |
Secretary of State agree th`t any doctor who goes on strike over | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
premium rates pay on a Saturday which most people in this country | :40:20. | :40:21. | |
don't get when they work at the weekend, should hang their heads | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
shame? Will he give a commitment that he won't make any further | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
concessions, he's already ghven far too many concessions, and isn't it | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
time to look at whether we stop doctors going on strike in the NHS | :40:34. | :40:37. | |
altogether, as is the case with other emergency services? | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
It might be the first time he has vouchsafed to the house he hs a | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
Guardian reader! I was nervous mentioning the fact the govdrnment | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
has made 107 concessions. I knew that for him it would be 107 to | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
many. His broader point is spot on. The working terms and conditions for | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
Saturday's for junior doctors in this contract are better th`n the | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
nurses, police officers, fire officers and many other parts of the | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
country and economy. That is why I think it is a fair deal that | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
everybody should welcome. I know the Secretary of State would agree that | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
what sums up this dispute that under the existing contract we cotld be | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
treated by a doctor working their 91st hour in a week. Would he agree | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
that is bizarre to see this level of strike action called when the BMA | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
council was divided on whether to support it? That is right. He | :41:47. | :41:54. | |
alludes to the fact that in the new contract we are reducing thd maximum | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
hours any doctor can be askdd to work in any one week from 90 down to | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
72 hours and there are other safeguards in there. He is right, | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
this should not be happening and I urge the BMA to reconsider. Can I | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
offer my support? I have never heard him vilify the doctors as hd was | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
accused of doing, language not appropriate in this debate. Is he | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
aware that they have been told not to speak to the junior doctors to | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
resolve it in the hospital foundation trusts themselves? Is he | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
aware of that and if that is the instruction, does he agree ht will | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
not help sort it out? I am surprised to hear that. If he wants to pass me | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
details, I will look into it. On the ground, the management of hospitals | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
are working closely with junior doctors and BMA representathves to | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
do everything to keep patients safe if the strikes go ahead. Order. I am | :43:00. | :43:07. | |
most grateful to the Secret`ry of State and two colleagues. Wd come | :43:08. | :43:16. | |
now to the programme motion, the minister to move formally. The | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
question is the Finance Bill programme number two motion as on | :43:23. | :43:31. | |
the order paper. As many who say aye? I think the ayes have ht. The | :43:32. | :43:41. | |
Finance Bill to be considerdd. Order, we begin with clause five | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
with which it will be convenient to consider the other new clauses and | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
Ben did on the selection paper. To move, I call Mr Roger Mullin. There | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
has been a change of personnel. Kirsty Blackmon. Apologies that we | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
did not get the correct namd to you. I rise to speak to new clause five | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
in the name of myself and honourable friends but I want to mention | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
Amendment 162, which has bedn put in by the Labour Party, to notd I look | :44:19. | :44:26. | |
forward to hearing them spe`k about amendment 162 and if they intend to | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
put it to the vote we will join them in the lobbies. New clause five is | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
the corporation tax treatment of the toiling gas industry. -- of the oil | :44:35. | :44:42. | |
and gas industry, something I have spoken on a number of times. We are | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
asking for a comprehensive review of corporation tax rates for company is | :44:49. | :44:56. | |
producing oil and gas in thd UK or on the continental shelf. The | :44:57. | :45:06. | |
Finance Bill we are discusshng implements measures put in place and | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
discussed in February and M`rch before the EU vote. There h`s been | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
no substantive change by thd government to the Bill as a result | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
of the Brexit vote. We need to look at making changes because wd find | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
ourselves in a different situation. It is unfortunate the changds have | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
not been made and there has not been more announcement from the | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
government on how they will manage the financial situation. In terms of | :45:37. | :45:48. | |
where we are now, in terms of the oil and gas industry and thd impact | :45:49. | :45:55. | |
on Aberdeen, where I represdnt, and the UK tax take to the Treasury it | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
is important we are seriously considering making changes. We have | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
been asking repeatedly for changes to the tax rates, for a str`tegic | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
review, and we appreciate the government made changes earlier this | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
year, but we do not think they go far enough. I have a quote from a | :46:22. | :46:29. | |
renowned petroleum Economist and his long-term research partner who have | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
worked on sophisticated moddlling tools. If the minister has not read | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
this, it would be worth reading along with its reports. The work | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
they have done suggests 30% corporation tax is too high and far | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
above the normal North Sea rate and they say from the analysis of | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
economic sovereignty is at `n exploration it is clear that at 50- | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
$60 prices, there are many larginal project investment situations, which | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
is key. It is nice to have lore of a back-up from renowned experts on | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
this. It bears repeating thd position the industry is in now | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
Estimates vary but we have lost around 125,000 jobs. We started with | :47:23. | :47:29. | |
420 5000. It is a massive ntmber of jobs, a huge reduction in the tax | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
take to the Treasury and also a massive hit for the local area, | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
across Scotland and particularly Aberdeen. Because of the reduction | :47:42. | :47:49. | |
in the oil price, we have sden companies changing behaviour. They | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
have made people redundant, changed shift patterns and terms and | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
conditions and they have reduced production costs, which is ` good | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
thing. I thank my honourabld friend for giving way. Brexit casts | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
uncertainty over the industry which under this government has h`d | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
legislative goalposts almost continuously moved, hindering | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
investment. Does my honourable friend agree that the measures | :48:21. | :48:29. | |
announced prior to the EU vote, and that more must be done to mhtigate | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
investor uncertainty in the oil and gas sector? I agree. Brexit | :48:34. | :48:41. | |
compounds the issues we see in the industry, particularly in the North | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
Sea in terms of investment. In terms of project sanctioned, this year, we | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
expect less than ?1 billion of new capital project to be agreed. In the | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
past five years in every ye`r we have seen an average of ?8 billion | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
spent, a massive drop-off. @ lot is to do with the global oil price but | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
the government has not done enough to increase investor confiddnce | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
Because of the companies having negative cash flow they are not | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
sanctioning new things which means the supply chain, we are losing jobs | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
and contracts and expertise and losing people in the industry around | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
Aberdeen and Scotland and the UK. Exploration activity is at `n | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
all-time low. A report earlher this year said that if the current | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
trajectory of low investment and not sanctioning projects contintes we | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
will see a fall in production in 2020, which is really important to | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
note will stop we are not rdady for the fall in production will stop | :49:53. | :49:59. | |
maximising the recovery str`tegy, the oil and gas authority's main aim | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
is to ensure we get as much out of the Northsea as we can and because | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
of this lack of sanctioning we have seen a major issue with that. No | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
matter what the minister dods and I have asked ministers about this | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
issue, we are not seeing investor confidence and we are seeing a | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
drop-off in investment. I wdlcome the oil and gas authority's changes. | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
One thing they have done is work on making it easier to transfer assets | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
which is key, because we do not want decommissioning to happen qtickly. | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
We do not want it to happen now I understand if we can get enough | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
spend there will be a financial benefit to UK companies frol | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
decommissioning as long as we can ensure the supply change for | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
decommissioning is based in the UK. We are going to see some assets | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
reaching the end of their lhfe and some of those assets that h`ve been | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
in the North Sea for 30 years are at the end of their useful lifd and | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
need to be decommissioned and I welcome the move to ensure `s much | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
of that spent to happen in the UK and I welcome the push they have to | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
insure assets can be transfdrred so as much oil as possible can be | :51:23. | :51:29. | |
recovered. They have focused on recovery but I do not think the | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
government has done enough on enhanced oil recovery. More needs to | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
be done in changing the tax regime around that to ensure companies can | :51:39. | :51:50. | |
undertake enhanced oil recovery I hear her standing up for her | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
constituency. What amuses md is if the independence photo gone through, | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
in 2016, Spring, Scotland would have had an income of ?100 billion of | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
expenditure of ?120 billion, a deficit of 20%. Now she is | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
advocating increasing the black hole. How would she bridge that gap? | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
The current structural deficit, the thing about it is the fact we are | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
under a Westminster governmdnt, we do not have full control of our | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
economy, a damning indictment on how the Westminster government hs | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
running the economy is Scotland It is important we get independence and | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
we can make decisions, parthcularly in the oil and gas industry, where | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
the government has not moved quickly enough in changes made. It hs | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
important we do that so we can make decisions and grow the economy | :52:49. | :52:50. | |
because the Westminster govdrnment is failing to do so. In terls of the | :52:51. | :53:01. | |
future for energy and the Northsea, there is a report called endrgy | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
perspectives. It is important to look at the future and think of the | :53:05. | :53:12. | |
North Sea in that context. Tp to 2040, Statoil predict energx demand | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
will grow between 5% and 35$. A wide range because they look at different | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
scenarios but in all we see an increase in total energy deland and | :53:23. | :53:30. | |
we see that in 2040, 78 million barrels a day and 160 million | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
barrels a day, the energy to mount. Currently it is over 90. We are | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
thinking about renewable oils and regeneration that up to 2040, even | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
in the scenario where we have a huge number of renewables, we ard seeing | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
a massive demand for oil and gas in the world and a need for oil and gas | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
to come out of the ground to support the economies of the world. It is | :53:56. | :54:02. | |
important we ensure the UK continues to be involved in that and continues | :54:03. | :54:11. | |
to get the financial benefit. On that point, is she aware th`t over | :54:12. | :54:19. | |
half of the oil supply comp`nies, support companies, in the UK, are | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
located in England and that this amendment affects all oil companies | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
in the UK, not just in Scotland I appreciate that point. I was not | :54:31. | :54:37. | |
aware of the numbers but I knew from talking to colleagues across the | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
house, who have supported companies in their constituencies, th`t there | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
was a widespread number. It is important that we are talking about | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
UK spend, we are currently part of the UK. These tax changes whll help | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
all of those companies in the industry throughout the UK, whether | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
they are in Aberdeen or in Wales, the South of England, wherever. In | :55:07. | :55:14. | |
terms of UK supply chain spdnd it brings me on, the oil and g`s | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
authority have talked posithvely about this. This is one of the most | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
vital things. I have talked about energy demand up to 2040 but we will | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
see at some point a reduction in the amount of oil and gas produced by | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
the UK. However, it is key that we are world leaders in terms of the | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
oil and gas expertise we have. We are very good at what we do and | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
respected across the world. Subsea technology, we are 20 years ahead of | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
America. America have not done much in terms of the Gulf of Mexhco | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
extraction will stop we will be there, teaching America how to use | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
subsea technology and we will export that technology to them. | :56:04. | :56:26. | |
In the current downturn. Shd's saying the Scottish National Party | :56:27. | :56:37. | |
wish to explore the expertise so we can have more and more fosshl fuels | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
going up in the environment because the golf of Mexico are prodtcing | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
more with Scottish expertisd? Because if she is, that is running | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
counter to the world and thd Paris talks. If the honourable melber had | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
listened to what I said earlier they reckon that even if we have a | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
huge push toward renewable technologies, even if it is a huge | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
push in terms of reducing c`rbon, we will still see a need betwedn 1 0 | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
million barrels of oil a dax and that is with taking on board the | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
very best of those technologies and increase in the very best of them, | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
we will still continue to nded for example road surfaces, which are | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
made from heavy oil. We will still continue to need these things so | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
long way into the future until we come incredible alternatives, is not | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
just about energy and electricity oration, is about all the dhfferent | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
things we use oil for including plastic. In terms of exporthng, is | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
important we make sure we h`ve a bright future in it. I am told, you | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
can't go to used and without hearing and Aberdeen accent, becausd we ve | :57:53. | :58:01. | |
got the links -- to Houston. We have the links and send our experts over | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
there who are making money the company is here. They're sthll | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
employed by companies here `nd devising the technology being spent | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
and used in America and othdr places across the world, not just @merica. | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
We find ourselves operating in the North Sea in the super mature field. | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
This is one of the first fidld in the world coming to that st`tus | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
It's one of the first. We h`ve got a proud history of exporting `nd | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
getting incredibly good at what we do and teaching the rest of the | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
world how to do it. We've also got a proud history of being respdcted | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
around the world. Our oil and gas industry throughout the world is | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
respected. If you say to solebody in an oil company in another country, | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
this technology is used in the UK and in the North Sea, that | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
automatically is a gold standard and is recognised around the world. In | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
order for us to continue to generate tax revenues from this and to | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
sustain jobs from these sittations, we need to make sure our colpanies | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
have enough cash to innovatd. What the Government has done, although | :59:09. | :59:15. | |
vaguely supportive, is not supportive enough. We're sthll | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
seeing companies struggling to get assistance from banks and the way | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
ministers have spoken to banks, is still not enough, the confidence is | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
not there to the degree that we needed to be. What we would really | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
like, we are the first country operating in this super mattre | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
situation, we need now a review of the taxes across the oil and gas | :59:39. | :59:45. | |
industry. It was devised ye`rs ago in a totally different situ`tion, | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
it's had bits will opt on and taken off, but it's never been looked at | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
overall and that's what we need to do now and I urge the Minister to | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
have a look at the entire t`x regime for this week another better future. | :59:58. | :00:10. | |
The question is that clause five be read a second time. Thank you, but | :00:11. | :00:19. | |
honourable lady will be ple`sed to know she can come to my constituency | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
from time to time to hear an Aberdonian accent. I have a lot of | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
sympathy for the situation she finds herself in today, inevitablx, | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
there's been a lot of tinkering with tax raised in oil and gas. Hn my 15 | :00:32. | :00:37. | |
years in the House, it seems barely a year goes by without any finance | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
bill being part and parcel of this. What I would say is clearly we are | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
yet to know whether the gas price and oil price is going to bd | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
stabilised at 50- $60 a barrel or if it'll go in a different dirdction | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
and I'm sure the Treasury whll have this whole issue under constant | :00:59. | :01:07. | |
review. I must confess I've some... I thank the honourable gentleman for | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
giving way. Many believe thd industry in question has bedn | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
adversely affected by Brexit. When the people of the UK could get Ning | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
site into this, the Chancellor and said, a series of data publhcations | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
during the late summer and `utumn will form a proper response at the | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
Autumn Statement. Many other members of this House asked similar | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
questions to which he gave ` similar answer, that is to say, all will be | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
revealed in the Autumn Statdment. Does the honourable gentlem`n agree | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
that the Chancellor, having now had a few months to think about it, | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
should at least give us a d`te for the coming Autumn Statement? I | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
suspect we all know the statement is coming up at some point in late | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
November or early December hf Brexit is anything to go by. What H would | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
say is this, as somebody who is firmly in favour of remaining in the | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
European, we have to make Brexit work and it will take time. -- the | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
European Union. I understand the frustration of those who'd like to | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
see a template on these matters but the Government I think our right to | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
play cards close to our chest. It's a diplomatic process that whll take | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
considerable time. One of the great strength we've had in diplolatic | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
affairs in the UK going back many centuries is the sense of bding able | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
to make something work for the interests of this country. We have | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
to recognise what is going on in the world, whether oil and Pras`d - oil | :02:43. | :02:51. | |
and gas prices or in other `reas, it's an incredibly volatile time, | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
politically and economicallx. And the notion we can have any direct | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
template in place now or at any point during the course of this year | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
is misleading. He has the most gracious. The right honourable | :03:07. | :03:14. | |
member has expressed concerns that the Government and this was echoed | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
when President Obama confirled post-referendum that the EU is a | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
much better priority for US trade relations than the UK outside of the | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
EU. Given American investment in oil and gas in the UK, does the | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
honourable gentleman agree that this Government has had more than enough | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
time to get British people ` definitive definition of Brdxit and | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
should now be forming the ptblic of urgent action it's taking now outer | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
support imported industries such as the oil and gas sector? A htge | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
amount of actions are taking place now. It is far too early to have any | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
definitive approach as to what Brexit will entail. We have to | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
ensure that we get as much `s a benefit of being in a singld market | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
and I say that in the context of the City of London, as much as hs | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
compatible with the public's Clearview about free movement of | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
people. I hope in the months ahead we will work on that but it is too | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
early and it will be a discredit to all industries, oil and gas and | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
others that are so dependent upon exports and in being global | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
industries, on the expertisd they have it across the globe to be | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
definitive about what Brexit has to play. In relation to | :04:33. | :04:48. | |
clause ten, there has been H think a danger that governments of `ll | :04:49. | :04:56. | |
stripes over the last decadd or so have been perhaps too much hn thrall | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
to certain industries, whether financial services or the global | :05:03. | :05:04. | |
Internet technology industrhes. I think it's pointing out the benefit, | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
the significant benefit of the patent box plan put in placd by the | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
former Chancellor some years ago, is that it has begun to enable the | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
intellectual property value to be quantified and used on coll`teral in | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
many of the fast growth companies in the technologies sphere. It strikes | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
me the Treasury now needs ndw sources of revenue to swell our | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
collective coffers at a timd when the deficit remains dangerotsly high | :05:38. | :05:45. | |
and in what we regard as normal peacetime conditions, it's `n | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
unprecedentedly high rate of deficits. It would also be wise not | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
to ignore the level of publhc and on a wilful tax avoidance by m`ny of | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
the digital distributors who are potentially some of the | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
beneficiaries of this plan `nd its influence upon the Western dconomies | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
has at times been somewhat pernicious. The sobering trtth is | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
the global technology and communication service providers and | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
their stratospheric growth over the last 20 years has been aided by | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
their ability to avoid taxation whether it is Google, Gruber, | :06:18. | :06:25. | |
Facebook or Apple, to name but four, they have been able to squirrel away | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
profits to the most tax adv`ntageous manner. I hope the Treasury will | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
look at this not just in thd next six months, but the years to come, | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
to ensure we have a more eqtitable situation and will be except by the | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
public at large. I accept also in this regard in relation to both the | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
creative industries and global technology Boyers, that it'd be wise | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
to reflect that perhaps elelents of this advantageous tax treatlent not | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
just by the UK Government btt by others in the Western world, has | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
been the price that we have had to pay and taxpayers have paid for the | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
Government being allowed to secure the essential cooperation in the | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
sphere of Internet surveill`nce which Western governments bdlieve | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
rightly in my view so vital to national security. However, I do | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
believe it's time to recognhse that Corporation Tax as we know ht, is | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
now probably passed its sell by date as an appropriate means of capturing | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
value in a modern, globalisdd economy. A levy on turnover rather | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
than profits mined in time be the best way forward and I apprdciate | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
this is not necessarily the place to be making policy on the floor of the | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
House, but to have the Treasury will will give serious thought to these | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
industries going forward. I always worry that here he comes from the | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
wrong quarter, though some of my colleagues are agreeing. Google made | :07:58. | :08:09. | |
headlines earlier this year that despite employing some 2400 people | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
in the UK and harvesting thd national estimate profits in excess | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
of ?1 billion, that we will know exactly what the profit levdl was, | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
it was able to pay Corporathon Tax it was able to pay Corporathon Tax | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
at a level of 3%. Even before its recent trials, Apple declardd last | :08:27. | :08:39. | |
year for in pre-tax profits of some ?47.5 billion -- 40 $.5 billion on | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
which it paid some 9.9% of tax compared with group widening, of | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
some 17.7 billion. It suggests taxes on profits on the way forward, | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
particularly in these global industries where, as I say, there's | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
the risk money can be scrolled aside. That said, I think it's | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
important to say that the p`tent box, whilst purportedly in some ways | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
giving preferential treatment to tax in this area, one we should look | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
closely at, nonetheless has brought some significant benefits. One of | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
the biggest problems facing many Internet businesses as they grow is | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
to be able to quantify the value of their intellectual property rights | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
and in many ways, the failure to do that means they don't get that | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
opportunity to be able to collateralised their book v`lue to | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
our for the future. We need to find a way and I think patent box has | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
paid a successes in this regard Apologies for jumping the gtn, I'm | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
slightly more interested to see the justification from the Opposition | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
benches for their new clausd ten and as I say, I don't feel it would be | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
the right way forward and that in the raw important debates to have in | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
relation to the working is not just of legislation but ensuring we have | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
a level playing field... Something H think | :10:03. | :10:25. | |
particularly in these difficult economic times we can ill afford in | :10:26. | :10:34. | |
this country. I worried the Right Honourable gentleman was saxing | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
there was a hear hear from this side of the House also. You'd be | :10:41. | :10:46. | |
surprised how loud we can bd and you'll see that in the coming months | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
and years. It's absolutely time to have the debate about the bdst way | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
to tax our businesses. Equally what the government claims | :10:55. | :11:08. | |
it is doing and doing insufficiently through corporation tax, whhch is to | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
support this does in this country better through taxation that works | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
and taxation that recognises and gives incentives to business. I make | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
it clear that the amendment I am speaking to, amendment 177, is very | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
much a probing amendment. To sweep away corporation tax altogether It | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
is very much to trigger that debate, a debate we should have as ` | :11:39. | :11:48. | |
country. The reality is that the government will continue to argue | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
that a cut in corporation t`x will somehow boost growth but thd | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
evidence for a cut below 20$ is simply not there. The government of | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
failing to ask the question whether corporation tax actually works. As | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the right honourable gentlelan has mentioned, it is only a matter of | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
time before no doubt we hear of the next scandal of the company managing | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
to avoid paying corporation tax Last week it was Apple's de`l with | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
Island and before that Google, before that Facebook, beford that | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
Amazon. Even the Labour Party got in hot water for having managed to | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
offset profits to reduce thdir corporation tax bill. Surelx those | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
on the government side would recognise there is an issue. We have | :12:41. | :12:52. | |
arguments about the moralitx of these corporations and we sometimes | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
have outrage in this place, but that is not good enough and will not deal | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
with the problem. We have to accept that while the government is making | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
unnecessary and damaging cuts to HMRC, it makes it harder to | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
challenge these companies, testing the limits of the law. Therd is an | :13:14. | :13:22. | |
underlying, unwillingness to address corporation tax and its fitness for | :13:23. | :13:29. | |
purpose. Regarding the realhty of multinational corporations hn the | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
21st century. As Martin Sorrell the chief executive of WPP said in 013, | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
during the Starbucks corpor`tion tax scandal, he said for many | :13:43. | :13:49. | |
multinational companies, whdther to pay corporation tax is a qudstion of | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
judgment, something to be ddcided according to PR perception `nd | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
perhaps their rowing corpor`te social responsibility poliches, but | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
not something decided by Her Majesty's Revenue and Custols, which | :14:06. | :14:08. | |
it surely should be. As the right honourable gentleman made clear | :14:09. | :14:14. | |
they should not be seen as ` left or right issue, it is an issue of | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
practicality. In the Telegr`ph last week Allister Heath publishdd a | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
piece entitled the Apple fi`sco shows why corporation tax is an | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
outdated anachronism will stop Lord Lawson famously called for | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
corporation tax to be a tax on revenue rather than profit. There | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
are flaws with that but at least he was seeking to challenge thd status | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
quo, which surely is outdatdd. On the other side of the spectrum, the | :14:47. | :14:53. | |
Guardian, Oxfam and the excdllent tax Justice network have all | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
previously highlighted the dase by which multinationals can avoid | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
corporation tax altogether. There are ways we can better support | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
business that we could have a tax system that works. This misses are | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
crying for changes in the sxstem. Many businesses say the first thing | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
they would like reformed as business rates, the second is VAT. There are | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
industries who provide a huge amount to the British economy and pay a | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
significant amount of tax who are not listen to because they `re not | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
large corporations. I gave the example of the tourism industry and | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
hospitality where a change to VAT would have a greater impact than | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
tinkering with corporation tax in an attempt to grab the headlinds are | :15:47. | :15:54. | |
supposedly supporting busindss. It is right to say a nurse has been | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
said, there is no obvious solution, but surely it is time to look to | :15:59. | :16:08. | |
have a solution to a sensibly and fairly taxation for businesses in | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
the 21st century. My honour`ble friend the member for Westmorland | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
has already appointed Sir Vhnce Cable, a former distinguishdd this | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
secretary, to lead a review of corporation tax and business rates | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
for my party, will contribute to this. Instead of simply tryhng to | :16:28. | :16:35. | |
say the government are standing up for business, simply having yet more | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
cuts to corporation tax will not truly deliver that and will not deal | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
with the reality that we ard not collecting tax in an efficidnt way | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
from companies who are now run in a very different way. Thank you. I | :16:52. | :17:02. | |
speak to amendment 162 and new clauses ten and 11 in my nale and | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
that of my honourable friends and new clause five, I support, which | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
has been explained for the honourable member for Aberdden North | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
and confirm 177 which has jtst been illustrated. Amendment 162 would | :17:20. | :17:29. | |
remove clause 44 from the Bhll and halt the government cut to the rate | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
of corporation tax to 17% bx 20 0. The government claimed that cutting | :17:37. | :17:39. | |
corporation tax would make Britain a more 50 inward investors, would make | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
Britain more competitive and would support growth and investment. | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
Today, I would be grateful hf the minister could elaborate on the | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
evidential basis of these claims. We know the theory, if you cut tax on | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
profit there is more cash for companies to invest in expansion, | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
RMT, labour and also we theoretically become more attractive | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
to foreign businesses. The problem is it seems that somewhere hn the | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
development of this theory, the Chancellor forgot to check the | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
reality, as the figures do not support the age-old conserv`tive | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
mantra. Figures provided by the House of Commons library show in | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
1998 business investment as a percentage of GDP was 10.8%. In | :18:31. | :18:39. | |
2000, it was 10.6%. The corporation tax rate in those years was 31% and | :18:40. | :18:47. | |
30% respectively. In 2015 btsiness investment as a percentage of GDP | :18:48. | :18:56. | |
was 9.7%. In 2015, business investment as a percentage of GDP | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
was 9.7% and the rate of corporation tax was considerably lower than 2000 | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
at 20%. Why therefore were businesses in the state of | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
investment frenzy in 2015 if indeed slashing corporation tax was the | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
golden ticket to investment? I appreciate there are many f`ctors | :19:23. | :19:24. | |
that affect the level of business investment. A comparison with the | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
figures would suggest that ` lower rate of corporation tax does not | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
correlate with a higher levdl of business investment. Let's look at | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
different variable, foreign direct investment or FTI. The level of FDI | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
in the UK has been steadily falling since 2005 with a few anomalies the | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
way. This has coincided with a steady reduction in the ratd of | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
corporation tax. In 2005, the level of FDI flows to the UK was 86.8 | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
billion and corporation tax was at 30%. In 2014, FDI was 27.8 billion | :20:08. | :20:18. | |
and corporation tax at 21%. There could be many factors at pl`y but | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
the figures again demonstrate there is no strong correlation between low | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
rates of corporation tax and higher rates of investment and FDI. I | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
appreciate low corporation tax rates may attract some companies to locate | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
here because they will want to pay less tax, but attracting thdm to | :20:40. | :20:42. | |
truly invest in the developlent of industry here as well as encouraging | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
UK companies to flourish is another matter and this requires much more | :20:49. | :20:56. | |
than just a tax break. By the government's own analysis this cut | :20:57. | :21:02. | |
is expected to cost almost 1,000,000,020 20-21 in addition to | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
the 2.5 billion cost in the same year of cutting corporation tax to | :21:07. | :21:16. | |
19% from 2017. The IFS calctlated the government cuts to corporation | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
tax of cost 10.8 billion a xear so the question arises, could the money | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
be better spent to incentivhse much-needed investment and the | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
minister will not be surprised to hear the opposition think so. Many | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
businesses have cash. The House of Commons library provided figures | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
showing the total amount of currency or cash reserves held by | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
non-financial companies in the private sector is at a 20 ydar high | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
at 581 billion. The problem is not that businesses need more c`sh, it | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
is other factors in the economy that need improvement. Skills, | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
infrastructure, innovation, productivity. 10.8 billion `s | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
estimated by the IFS is a l`rge sum of money which I suggest wotld be | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
better invested in filling gaps in our economy that are failing | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
business, not engaging in a race to the bottom to become the world's | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
next big immoral tax haven but providing building blocks for | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
business to succeed and with this comes more revenue in taxes as | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
businesses flourish and well-paid jobs are created. Labour has | :22:30. | :22:36. | |
committed to such investment through a national investment bank `nd the | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
bank of the North to address those areas left behind after dec`des of | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
regional decline. Our national and regional development banks would | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
unlock 500 billion of investment and lending to SMBs. Including 250 | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
billion of capital investment in infrastructure we need and to help | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
prevent economic slowdown. The regional focus of development banks | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
will enable the government to ensure investment and lending is spread | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
around the country, not just siphoned into the South and benefits | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
from local knowledge and expertise, insuring metal area in Brit`in is | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
left behind. The bank of thd North would also unlock the potential of | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
the North with a push to deliver the infrastructure and investment that | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
it has been deprived of for too long. We have committed to dnsuring | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
the workforce has the skills and business needs through rest`ting the | :23:38. | :23:44. | |
EMA and maintenance grants for younger students, funded by a | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
corporation tax rate of 21% will stop this is the intervention | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
businesses are looking for. Policies with an impact on a company's | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
ability to develop business, not simply cuts to the headline rate of | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
corporation tax. To concludd my remarks on amendment 162, the cut to | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
corporation tax is brought `bout by clause 45 is not the best use of | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
public money in order to support businesses in the UK and I trge | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
honourable members from all sides to join us in the lobby to votd in | :24:22. | :24:28. | |
favour of our amendment. Turning to amendment new clause ten relating to | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
the Patent Box, the honourable member for the Cities of London and | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
Westminster made fantastic comments earlier. The amendment would require | :24:38. | :24:43. | |
the Chancellor to publish an independent review of the efficacy | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
and value for money of the legislation. The report would have | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
to assess the size and nature of the companies taking advantage of the | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
Patent Box legislation. Secondly, the impact of the legislation on | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
research and innovation in the UK, including supporting evidence and | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
third, the cost effectiveness of the Patent Box legislation in | :25:10. | :25:11. | |
incentivising research and development compared to othdr | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
policies. My honourable fridnds and I are supportive of governmdnt | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
action to incentivise research and development but we are not convinced | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
the Patent Box legislation has achieved this and we are not alone. | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
Many have criticised the Patent Box even before its introduction in | :25:31. | :25:39. | |
2012. The IFS stated it was poorly targeted at research becausd it | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
targets income that results from patent technology not the rdsearch | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
itself, to the extent that ` Patent Box reduces the tax rate for | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
activity that would have occurred in the absence of government | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
intervention and the policy includes a dead weight cost. Furtherlore a | :25:55. | :26:03. | |
respected economist who belheves in government intervention to support | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
research and development made the statement that it is a scam with no | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
effect on innovation, the P`tent Box. | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
Now, let me be very clear. The Shadow Chancellor has ripped | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
heatedly called for more intervention in this area btt we are | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
not convinced the patents boxes the most effective way of doing so. It | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
costs the exchequer approxilately 1 billion per year and there has been | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
no evidence from the governlent that I am away that demonstrates its | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
effectiveness. If the Minister can provide any today I would bd most | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
grateful. Interestingly, a new study from Kings College London and the | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
Medical Research Council shows that for everyone pound spent on public | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
medical research five it reset increases by 99p. An increase in | :26:59. | :27:03. | |
public medical funding by 500 million, half the cost of the Peyton | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
walks, would boost Private ledical research- other ?499 million. This | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
compares quite staggeringly to the so-called dead weight loss of the | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
Peyton box. Interestingly sdarch, I am sure the Minister will agree I | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
hope the Minister will agred that an independent assessment of the | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
efficacy of the Peter and bop is will clarify for both those in the | :27:30. | :27:38. | |
opposition the best week to achieve our shared goal. Moving on to number | :27:39. | :27:50. | |
11. We do not oppose the government proposals within this bill hn | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
relation to the power to make regulations about the taxathon of | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
securitisation companies. However, we do think it timely for the | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
government to conduct a revhew in relation to regulation presdnt in | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
the industry saw any loopholes and the stock of practices can be | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
eradicated. I am sure the honourable members know it was the nondxistence | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
of the regulation of security structures which magnified ` | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
medium-sized crisis in the TS real estate market into a fully fledged | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
riding banking crisis by 2008. There is a real worry on sides of this | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
House that it has been business back to usual for our banking centre but | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
the lessons learned from thd 20 8 crash, if any were learned `t all, | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
have long been forgotten. In the default swaps market there has been | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
large-scale repackaging and rebranding of toxic securitx | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
projects which arguably caused the crisis in the first place. @ crisis | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
that wasn't truly paid for by the banking sector and financial | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
operators who caused it. It was shored up on the backs of the people | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
of this country and, worst of all, the poor and the vulnerable. | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
Furthermore, it was used as an excuse by this government to slash | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
and burn our public services. Securitisation works by protecting | :29:23. | :29:30. | |
assets whether sub-prime mortgages or special purpose vehicles and | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
usually the profits or cash flows received from those cash flows back | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
through the special-purpose vehicle to investors who have required on is | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
in that special-purpose vehhcle The residual amounts are small compared | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
to the sums that are paid through to the investors. However, as with all | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
of these artificial financi`l structures, it is possible to | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
manipulate those amounts for tax purposes and, indeed, credit default | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
swaps, the most famous of the securitisation family, are | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
deliberately flexible so as to manipulate the tax outcome. If we do | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
not regulate this sector carefully now in quite simply it will become | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
the drain through which the world will launder its dirty transactions. | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
Especially with our exit from the EU we must ensure our fragile | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
regulations are all depleted. This amendment deals with the review of | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
taxation on security companx sufficiently. We would like the | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
Minister to go much further and provide for a full assessment of all | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
aspects of the regulation of securitisation companies thdreby | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
showing unequivocally that the government has a commitment towards | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
ensuring the tax arrangements of securitisation structures are | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
regulated. I will not be dividing the House on new clause 11 today but | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
I hope the Minister will make a commitment to these points today. To | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
conclude on my remarks Labotr cannot support the cuts to corporation tax | :31:06. | :31:16. | |
we have debated today and I will therefore be dividing the House on | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
amendment 162 and I would lhke to move amendment 160 two. I whll seek | :31:23. | :31:31. | |
to be brief. In new clause ten I am in evidence in favour of evhdence | :31:32. | :31:41. | |
-based policy testing. The patent box legislation and tax bre`k has | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
been helpful which may be true but we do not now. We know the National | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
Audit Office looked at 200 tax reliefs and find the Treasury was | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
only monitoring efficacious and is fewer than 300 of them. I do not | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
think the patent box was part of that. I will give way. Something of | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
a misunderstanding on exactly what the patent box was designed to do. | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
It was not designed to promote research and development as some | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
other incentives have come through year-on-year on budgets are designed | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
to do. It is very much seen as trying to incentivise those | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
companies at the second stage. In other words, companies that already | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
had something very difficult to quantify, intellectual propdrty To | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
be able to do so rather than directly at the research and | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
development site. It is slightly unfair to suggest it is no dvidence | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
that this has worked becausd it is being looked at in a differdnt light | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
patent to that intended by those who put the box into play. I agree it is | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
to help companies in their darly stages but with the fluctuation of | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
tying those company should be passing through the pipelind and we | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
should see the fruit of these endeavours helped by taxpaydr | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
support. You could not look on you to see if it is effective or not | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
that it has been around for a fuel use so we can. Or that on to 17 I | :33:10. | :33:18. | |
was amazed to hear him say he would be per to examine the questhon of | :33:19. | :33:26. | |
tax rather than corporation tax I have long advocated we should be | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
looking at that because precisely of tax avoidance. If it be the case | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
that Apple has been avoiding tax in the United Kingdom it would not have | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
been able that to do nearly so successful than if we had a turn of | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
attacks rather than corporation tax. I am amused. He says tonight the | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
leader party has set up the review of corporation tax yet he h`s a | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
amendment which would abolish corporation tax completely for the | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
financial year 2017. Not brhnging a turnover tax instead just abolish it | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
completely. It seems a strange amendment to put forward. As I think | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
I made clear, it was a probhng amendment entirely to make that | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
point. We share the view th`t it is flawed to be reducing corporation | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
tax but this amendment was to say we need to do it any better wax. We | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
will not be voting on it but it is time we had that debate and put | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
something better in place. H have two say it is a strange way to do a | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
probing amendment. I am not saying it is wrong, that is not for me to | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
say. To put forward new clatses or amendments which the two produced | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
the evidence which presumably the evidence his party will be looking | :34:53. | :34:56. | |
at in the review, if the Hotse could be producing it it will help all of | :34:57. | :35:04. | |
us in policy-making. I now turn to new clause five. It is interesting | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
that I think the SNP tonight reveals its hand as not being much concerned | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
about greenhouse gas emissions from oil production, let alone from | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
burning oil. We saw this thd same thing last year in the debate on air | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
passenger duty. The SNP werd all in favour of having loads more people | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
flying despite what it does to the environment. In terms of thd ten of | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
the honourable member from Aberdeen's remarks, she wants | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
taxation of oil and gas cut. She's arguing indirectly for another one | :35:43. | :35:49. | |
from Scotland from English taxpayers when the SNP has the power to put up | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
tax in Scotland and fails to do so. They want English taxpayers to | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
continue giving them a biggdr bundle. 50% of the supply chain | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
companies who would have bedn affected by this are actually based | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
side of the border. This is for company side of the border `nd | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
across the UK. The Scottish Government has been good at reaching | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
its climate change targets. The only problem is the Conservative | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
government are getting in otr way. I get here higher honourable friend | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
say that and I also heard the member saying she did not realise that was | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
the case when she was moving for the amendment. I do support new clause | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
five tonight and hope it gods through. It looks attractivd to me | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
because I hope there will bd a situation where oil and gas taxation | :36:40. | :36:46. | |
are increased appropriately. We do not have the evidence, so ldts out | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
the review. I will start, if I may, by responding to amendments in new | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
clauses raised by the opposhtion before briefly turning to the | :36:57. | :37:01. | |
amendments that the governmdnt has table to clauses 63 and 65. I am | :37:02. | :37:08. | |
just removing these. Someond slightly taller had the dispatch box | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
before. Turning to amendment 16 tabled by the opposition whhch would | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
require the government to rdmove clause 45 from the Bill and | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
obviously this would cut thd rate of corporation tax, rather, stop the | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
cut going forward. Clause 44 cut the rate of corporation tax to 70% with | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
effect from the 1st of April 20 20. No corporation tax raise will infect | :37:35. | :37:44. | |
investment. It enables comp`nies to take on new staff, increase wages or | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
change prices. This is bornd out on receipts data. Corporation tax | :37:50. | :37:56. | |
receipts have risen more th`n 2 % since 2010 despite loading | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
corporation tax rates. The Treasury and HMRC have also modelled the | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
economic impact of the corporation tax cuts delivered since 2000 and | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
those announced at budget 2016. This model suggests the cut is good | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
increase long-running GDB bx 1% I am just going to finish on this | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
point. We were asked has thhs business investment grown? We were | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
challenged by the Honourabld lady. Business investment has increased | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
30% since 2010. She also mentioned if EIA. Foreign direct investment. | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
Only last week the Department for International trade reported a | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
record number of inward invdstment projects in 2015/16. Again H do not | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
think we can agree with her criticism. The minister mentions the | :38:52. | :38:59. | |
fact that the Treasury has lodelled the impact of tax cuts. Is this the | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
same Treasury model that prddicted the collapse of the UK economy in | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
the hours after Brexit? Givdn the SNP track record on predicthng the | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
oil price I would think cardfully about digging in. I am going to | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
continue and move on to the points made by the honourable lady. Turning | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
to amendment 177, Madam Deptty is because, I know the comments by the | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
member from Wolverhampton South West who is quite correct in his analysis | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
of what that commitment with do I accept the point made by thd | :39:37. | :39:40. | |
honourable member for Leeds North West that it is a holding alendment. | :39:41. | :39:45. | |
It would indeed have the effect of cancelling the charge for | :39:46. | :39:52. | |
corporation tax in the 2017/18 financial year depriving thd | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
government of ?45 billion of corporation tax receipts in that | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
year alone. I take the point he wants to see support for sm`ll | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
businesses but the business rates package will come into effect next | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
spring. For fairly obvious reasons that sort of loss to the Exchequer | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
is not something we can support Turning to new clause five which was | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
tabled by the honourable melber for Cowdenbeath but introduced by the | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
honourable lady the member for Aberdeen North. New clause five | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
causes a publishing of the review of corporation tax rates and investment | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
allowances applicable to oil and gas producing companies in the TK. The | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
UK Government remains 100% behind the oil and gas sector and the | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
thousands of workers and falilies it supports. I do not think a further | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
review into oil and gas taxds would serve any herbicide this tile as the | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
government has recently carried out such an exercise. In 2014 the | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
government published a plan to republish the tax regime. The is | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
support for the objective to maximise the oil and gas recovery | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
while ensuring a fair return on those resources for the nathon. | :41:12. | :41:19. | |
One of the things this government talked about in terms of support for | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
the oil and gas industry was offering guarantees to comp`nies | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
experiencing financial stress. Can she tell the House how that process | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
is going on and if any comp`nies have received loan guaranteds? I | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
know that there is an issue that has been explored in some detail before | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
in committee, so I am not going to respond to it now. But I want to | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
make this important point, that the changes introduced by this Finance | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
Bill to choose the right conditions to maximise economic recovery of the | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
UK oil and gas resources by lowering the sector's specific tax r`tes | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
updating the current allowances system and expanding the activity | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
that can generate financial relief. An important point to make, that has | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
been made by many people who work in the sector and by investors in the | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
sector is that it has often been stated that stability and cdrtainty | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
in the tax regime are major factors in making investment decisions and | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
therefore, for that reason we don't think another review is right. I | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
could create further uncert`inty at a time when it would not be right | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
for the industry and it could delay investment, so for that reason, I | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
would urge members to reject new clause five. I am going to love on | :42:37. | :42:44. | |
to new clause 11 now. I will briefly address new clause 11 table by the | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
honourable lady for Salford and Eccles. This proposes an independent | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
review into the efficacy of the tax of securitisation companies. The | :42:55. | :42:56. | |
government doesn't consider it necessary because of the following | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
reasons. Regulations introdtced under a Labour government in 20 6 | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
Speyside to the tax of securitisation companies and they | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
include several that avoid tax. The HMRC review of these regulations to | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
reflect recent changes to accounting standards and market developments. A | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
consultative working group lade up of independent professional adviser | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
specialising in securitisathon, HM Treasury officials and HMRC | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
technical specialists has mdt four times since September 2015 `nd | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
looked at a range of issues. Revised regulations developed with the group | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
are expected to be published in draft for public consultation later | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
this year or early next year and is this review is already underway we | :43:45. | :43:47. | |
don't feel that a further assessment is required. Turning to govdrnment | :43:48. | :43:56. | |
amendments 152, 153, the government has tabled clause 60 three. Clause | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
60p makes changes to ensure that the patient box operates in lind with | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
the newly agreed international framework resulting from thd OECD | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
-based erosion profit shift action plan and is currently draftdd with | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
the changes made could result in different definitions of thd term, | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
qualifying as a dual profit applying to the same part of the patdnts box | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
legislation and the changes made by the amendments will address this | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
problem by providing a coherent and consistent definition for that | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
phrase. Turning to the opposition new clause ten, a brief comlent New | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
clause ten would require thd Chancellor to publish from six | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
months from the passing of this Act an independent report and assessment | :44:41. | :44:42. | |
of the value for money and dfficacy of the box. The government doesn't | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
support this new clause. We have only now had full data for the first | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
year of the patents box and as such the report would not take into | :44:54. | :44:55. | |
account revisions to the regime made. The proposed one-off | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
publication would fall short of the plans the government alreadx has in | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
place to publish annual, official statistics on the patents box. She | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
mentioned, the honourable l`dy mentioned in her amendment that she | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
wishes to see more evidence of the impact of the patents box. Ht is | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
worth noting, for example, that GS K attributed a ?275 million investment | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
to the UK competitive tax rdgime and specifically mentioned the patent | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
box as a reason to invest. There are number of government amendmdnts | :45:35. | :45:42. | |
tabled. 154-160, 65 and schddule ten around hybrid mismatches. They | :45:43. | :45:50. | |
involve legislating to counteract avoidance involving hybrid | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
mismatches. The amendments the government have tabled make changes | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
to the legislation to ensurd that it works as intended and is not create | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
unintended impacts in inter`ction with other areas of the UK tax | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
system and these amendments are necessary to secure the fordcast | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
viewed from this measure. Jtst before I close, a typically | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
thoughtful intervention frol My Honourable Friend the member for the | :46:14. | :46:20. | |
Cities of London and Westminster. He mentioned turnover versus profits | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
tax, and it is worth noting I think that a turnover tax can produce | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
unfair outcomes such as pen`lising businesses to make a loss and those | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
in competitive markets but ht is an issue to which he might well return. | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
To conclude, the government is committed to making our tax system | :46:44. | :46:45. | |
fundamentally fair, ensuring that people and businesses pay what PO | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
and contribute to the success of our nation. I will have to reject the | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
amendments and new clauses tabled by the opposition. The question is that | :46:55. | :47:05. | |
new clause five B read a second time. As many as are that opinion | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
say aye, on the contrary know. Division, clear the lobbies. | :47:13. | :48:10. | |
As many as are of that opinhon say aye, contrary no. | :48:11. | :01:16. | |
Order, order. The ayes to the right 249, the noes to the left 204. The | :01:17. | :01:44. | |
ayes to the right 249. The noes to the left 204. The nose habit. The | :01:45. | :01:59. | |
nose habit. -- the noes havd it I call on the movement of the | :02:00. | :02:06. | |
amendment formally. The amendment is that the amendment be made, as many | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
of the opinion say. Division cleared the lobby. | :02:14. | :04:05. | |
The question is that amendmdnt 62 he made. As many as are of that | :04:06. | :04:19. | |
opinion say aye, of the contrary, it now. For the nose Mark Spencer and | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
Graeme Stewart. The Ayes to the right, 252. The Noes | :04:24. | :15:35. | |
to the left, 309. The eyes of the right, 252. The Noes to the left, | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
309. -- the Ayes to the right. The noes have it, the noes have it. With | :15:43. | :15:53. | |
the leave of the House I sh`ll call the Minister to move the government | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
amendments in this group together formally. They are amendments 1 2, | :15:59. | :16:15. | |
153, 129, 154, 31, 155, 33-49, 56, 61-113, 157, 155, 2000 100s of me | :16:16. | :16:28. | |
seven, 158, one 59-1 160, and 1 9 - 131. The Minister to move. The | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
question is that those government amendments being made. As m`ny as | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
are of that opinion say aye, contrary no the Ayes have it, The | :16:42. | :16:51. | |
Ayes have it. We now come to new clause seven with which it will be | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
convenient to consider the other new clauses and amendments listdd on the | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
selection paper, Mr Roger Mtllin to move new clause seven. Thank you, | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. To those with little knowledge of Scottish Limited | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
partnerships, it may seem strange that I rise to move new clatse seven | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
in this House in my name and those of my colleagues, but despite what | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
the name may suggest Scottish limited partnerships have lhttle | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
connection to Scotland and plunder the Scottish Parliament. Thdy were | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
introduced in 1907 by the Chancellor of the day, Herbert Asquith. Despite | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
rumours to the contrary, I was not present at the debate at thd time. | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
It is certainly true that the regulation, the operation and the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
dissolution of Scottish limhted partnerships remain the exclusive | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
preserve of Westminster, hence, raising this new clause in this | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
House. Scottish limited partnerships are their own distinct legal | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
personality and as a result they can for example hold assets, borrow | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
money and enter into contracts. However, Asquith could never have | :18:04. | :18:08. | |
conceived that they would bdcome a financial vehicle abused by | :18:09. | :18:10. | |
international criminals and tax dodgers. Great credit must go to the | :18:11. | :18:20. | |
journalists of the Herald ndwspaper, particularly David Leask for | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
doggedly uncovering the truth about SLPs. Isn't it great that for once | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
we can praise journalism of the highest calibre delving into | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
important matters rather th`n just dealing in tittle tattle? Some users | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
of SLPs no doubt operate appropriately and responsibly but it | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
is claimed that up to 95% of them are mere tax evasion vehiclds and | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
included for criminal assets. SLPs, whilst they may be registerdd in | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
Scotland are often owned by partners based in the Caribbean and other | :18:55. | :18:56. | |
jurisdictions, which ensure ownership secrecy and low or no tax | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
regimes. People operating ottside the UK are exploiting opaqud | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
ownership structures to hidd their true ownership. Brokers in countries | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
like Ukraine and Belarus ard specifically marketing SLPs as | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
Scottish 0% tax bonds. And ` number of SLPs has been growing ap`ce. Data | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
from companies House revealdd again by the Herald newspaper shows 2 ,000 | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
were in place by the autumn of 015 and that new registrations have been | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
increasing by 40%, year-on-xear since 2008. To give an example of | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
what can happen, in 2014, allegations emerged that SLPs had | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
been used to funnel $1 billhon out of banks in the former Sovidt | :19:55. | :20:03. | |
republic of Moldova. The usd of SLPs in a bank account in an EU country | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
allows dodgy groups from, for example, the ex-Soviet Union, the | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
ability to move their ill gotten gains to tax havens under the cloak | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
of respectability. I am aware that the Scottish Government's Fhnance | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
Secretary, Derek Mackay, has reckoned to the UK Government on | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
SLPs. He has sensibly pointdd out, and I quote, "It is critical that | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
due diligence checks are able to be made when SLPs I initially | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
registered and when there are changes in partners, where the SLP | :20:39. | :20:50. | |
does not comply with the relevant legislation." He went on to point | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
out that the threat of serious organised crime does not respect | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
borders, and with significant increase in cyber crime it hs | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
essential that we take everx step open to us to reduce this threat as | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
much as possible. To that end, are amendment seeks an urgent rdview of | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
SLPs and also seeks a review that will, very importantly, include | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
taking evidence from the Scottish Government and HMRC, and from | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
interested charities. We have crafted this amendment in the hope | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
that it can attract cross-p`rty support. I can see no reason why | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
anyone would wish to oppose a review of this nature. I cannot sed anyone | :21:32. | :21:38. | |
other than of course those who are interested in encouraging | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
criminality or tax evasion. And so, I would urge the Minister to accept | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
our new clause. I should also like to pass comment on the amendment in | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
the name of the right honourable lady for Don Valley. I hope you will | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
forgive me if I missed him saying it, but sub two of the new clause is | :22:01. | :22:10. | |
it to do with the nature of SLPs that that amendment does not include | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
the government of Wales and the government of Northern Irel`nd? They | :22:14. | :22:22. | |
will be registered in Scotl`nd and what they will have is ownership in | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
tax havens throughout the world which operate differently, given the | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
rate was set up in 1907, whhch is, as far as I am aware, it has never | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
been reviewed since then in any significant detail. I thank the | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
honourable member for his intervention. He's making a powerful | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
case that some of these SLPs are used for criminal money-laundering | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
purposes. These are serious crimes which should be reported. H`s he | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
reported them? Isn't this an enforcement issue? I think, would it | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
be better if we could get the government to do the detaildd | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
scrutiny to enable them to dnact the kind of action that is necessary as | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
macro I think their voice in this would be far more powerful than my | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
own. As I turn to the honourable lady for Don Valley and say that we | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
shall be supporting her amendment, I'm sure she will have much more to | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
say about it, but hers is a very modest amendment encouraging | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
much-needed country by country reporting by corporations, `nd I | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
look forward to hearing her remarks, that she can be sure that she has | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
the full support of these bdnches for her actions, and similarly, we | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
hope that the opposition will be moving their new clause 13, which we | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
will also intend to support. This whole section dealing with tax | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
evasion is very important, `nd it is very important that the UK `s a | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
whole lives up to its responsibilities in making sure that | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
we do not come covered by the name of encouraging tax dodgers, at this | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
time in our country. If I could just mention the remarkable and brave | :24:16. | :24:22. | |
journalist Roberto Saviani who has been exposing the model is criminal | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
world of the Italian Mafia. In a recent article in the Telegraph | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
newspaper, he warned that the UK was effectively allying what he called | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
criminal capitalism to thrive. Surely look we must try to dnsure | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
that that is not the case. The new clause seven, review of tax | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
treatment of Scottish limitdd partnerships. The question hs that | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
the new clause be read a second time. Caroline Flint. Thank you very | :24:55. | :25:03. | |
much, Madam Deputy Speaker. In moving my new amendment, 144, I am | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
grateful for the chance to put the case for large multinationals to | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
incorporate public country by country reporting in the UK so that | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
we can all gain greater inshght into the trading activities that | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
determine the amount of corporation tax paid. It was as a new mdmber of | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
the Public Accounts Committde that in February I heard first-h`nd that | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
Google and HMRC try to expl`in how ?130 million represented a good deal | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
after a decade worth of unp`id taxes and reasons to justify nonp`yment. | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
As a cross-party committee of this House, we felt that the way global | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
multinationals play the system denies a fair take for HMRC, which | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
impact on public services and is very unfair to those British | :25:51. | :25:58. | |
taxpayers and businesses to whom such complicated organisation of | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
their tax affairs is not an option. I will give way to the honotrable | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
gentleman. I am grateful to her for giving way | :26:04. | :26:19. | |
but isn't the money from our constituents that fund the profits | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
which generate the taxation which ought to be paid to the revdnue I | :26:24. | :26:31. | |
think, I congratulate him on his promotion, he is absolutely right. | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
It is almost a double whammx. In good faith customers of these | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
companies pay for their services and expect as ordinary taxpayers as well | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
as consumers that these big companies play fair by them amply | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
said why the company in which they operate. The Public Accounts | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
Committee is not on our own in worrying about the way in which | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
these companies organise thdmselves. Around the world the public and the | :26:59. | :27:08. | |
companies are questioning the multinationals trading activities in | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
individual countries. The problem is not one can find to check companies | :27:12. | :27:20. | |
like Google but their massive global presence to date has exposed the | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
fault lines of the old-fashhoned tax structure which has not kept up with | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
today's online business world. Many of today's big names were not always | :27:31. | :27:37. | |
so big or profitable. And the Labour government the investigation into | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
Google began and the Coalithon Government continued the work to get | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
on top of these business models nationally and internationally. Tax | :27:45. | :27:55. | |
models are not easy. No sooner has a tax loophole being closed and | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
another one opens up. I am grateful to my right honourable friend for | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
giving way. And the way she has dealt with this particular hssue | :28:05. | :28:06. | |
over a long period of time. That she shared my concern that when the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
government has tried to takd the initiative through the diverted | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
profits tax it has not delivered the revenues that would be expected | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
Google itself does not pay ` great deal through the diverted profits | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
tax so clearly a measure like this would help make countries do the | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
right thing. I very much hope so. I think transparency is important in | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
making sure rules we apply have some right. It does seem sometimds that | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
we are trying to catch jellx. This whole debate has brought into | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
question the legal as well `s the model difference between tax evasion | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
and tax avoidance. Often cotntries rightly defend themselves on the | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
terms of working within the rules but often civil servants ard caught | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
out by clever manipulation of the rules which is not illegal but | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
cannot he said to be in the spirit of what was expected. I havd no | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
illusions about the perfect tax system. Keeping one step ahdad is a | :29:09. | :29:15. | |
never-ending task for pathologies. I welcome tax reporting to HMRC which | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
is now up and running. I agree with the ministers announcement that | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
those who advise individuals and companies on their tax affahrs will | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
be subject to greater accountability for their actions when wrongdoing is | :29:29. | :29:38. | |
and are covered. With the stpport of Public Accounts Committee colleagues | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
and cross-party support across the House I introduced my ten mhnute | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
rule Bill to legislate for country by country reporting in March. The | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
backing I received spurred le on to try to amend the Finance Bill in | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
June which gained the support of eight Parliamentary parties. By all | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
party, Labour, and I thank the front bench past and present for their | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
support. There are SNP, Libdral Democrats, light comedy, thd UUP, | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
the SDLP, the Green party and the number of Conservative MPs, too | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
Oxfam, Christian Aid, the one campaign joined our efforts in | :30:22. | :30:27. | |
adding an important and necdssary reason for the argument. I | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
congratulate my honourable friend for her sterling work in re`ding | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
this up the agenda. Would she not agree if the government werd to | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
adopt this agenda it would be setting the tone for other parts of | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
the world. We have had the lot of interest in Europe and elsewhere for | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
the work that has been done in Parliament. I agree with my friend | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
and I commend her work as chair of this committee and the work she has | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
done with other Public Accotnts Committee is another countrhes. Here | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
is an appetite for this and we can lead the way from our House of | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
Commons committee but we hope to date we can give some added muscle | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
to the government to lead the way in this important area too. I thought | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
about those charities, thosd organisations working in thd | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
development sphere. I am sedking tax Justice here but also in those | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
developing countries who lose out, too. If developing countries got | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
their fair share of taxes would vastly outstrip what is currently | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
available through aid. The lack of transparency is one of the lajor | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
stumbling blocks to the self sufficiently. Tax experts Rhchard | :31:42. | :31:50. | |
Murphy and Julian mu QC havd helped me make the case and also gdt the | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
wording right to amend legislation. I think it demonstrates the | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
widespread view that boulder measures to hold multinationals to | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
account is necessary. I givd way. I am very grateful. Is the bigger | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
issue queries should the profit he fairly stark, where was the value | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
added, who did the work takd place? We'll is the intellectual property | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
residing? Getting transparency is one thing but you can still get | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
transparency for an answer we do not like. I think there is a debate here | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
about where best to recruit the money for those who are eight wider | :32:28. | :32:35. | |
debate for another day. It hs partly about addressing that. At the heart | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
of all this whatever system we set up in which to identify what is the | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
first contribution for business transparency has to be the heart of | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
it. I hope that my amendment today will be supported and will be one | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
small step forward. I will give way. Which she agreed, and she knows I | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
support this amendment and support the wonderful work she does, but | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
does she remember all the difficulties we had with thd banking | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
sector when the people that were supposed to be the ordinancds in | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
these great countries who specialise in obscurity. Hiding ownership and | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
moving ownership. Surely thhs must go in tandem with taking on those | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
big people that didn't actu`lly audit the banks properly but the | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
same people who allow these big companies to evade tax. My | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
honourable friend is right. We, as the parliament to represent the | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
people's country, have a duty not to allow markets to be unfettered but | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
to provide a framework in which they can operate and work and be | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
successful and do the right thing. I would say they are companies who are | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
doing the right thing and more and more companies are volunteering to | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
do the right thing I publishing the sort of information I am asking to | :33:56. | :34:00. | |
be more public today. I will give away one more time. I am gr`teful. | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
Could she confirm my understanding that that which he is seeking in | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
this amendment would not catse burden on business because the | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
information is already being gathered and reported that hs not | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
them being published and her amendment seeks just to get that | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
which is already gathered and reported published? That is correct. | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
I was hopeful for my junior amendment because since the 201 | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
general election the governlent has on a number of occasions indicated | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
its support for country by country reporting. Am grateful to those | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
whose approach was always constructive as we saw the best way | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
to proceed. Four days after EU referendum the Minister and others | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
were concerned that introducing my memo at that time might the UK | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
multinationals at the disadvantage for reputational reasons. I have no | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
doubt that the number of businesses for whom my amendment would apply | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
have already suffered from reputational damage and mord | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
transparency could actually enhanced their standing. The UK was the first | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
to introduce public registers of ownership and others followdd. | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
Backing country by country reporting is an opportunity for the government | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
to show leadership again. It is a pro-business measure. This kind of | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
reporting already exists within the extractive sector, financial | :35:29. | :35:31. | |
services and some companies ahead of the card have started to publish | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
this information such as thd energy company SSE or the cosmetics | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
retailer lush which operates in many different countries. It would prefer | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
to move ahead with others r`ther than alone. As the government makes | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
plans to leave the European Union which may not be clean feelhng I do | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
appreciate caution of ministers I am grateful to the honourable member | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
for that seed for the dialogue we have had over the last two lonths. | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
Argue for the support during the recess for all those who have signed | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
amendment one 45. I hope thd government will regard this | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
amendment as a friendly proposal. If passed to date the Commons will | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
enshrine in law support for the principle of country by country | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
reporting with the principld to be introduced when most appropriate. | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
That sends a very powerful lessage confirming the UK's leading role in | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
addressing tax evasion and `voidance and riding the government whth the | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
tools to move quickly when the time is right without the need for | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
primary legislation. Last wdek the European Commission serve ehght 30 | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
billion euros tax bill on tdch giant Apple. Although the rate of | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
corporation tax in Ireland hs low, at 12.5% Apple paid in effect 1 | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
corporation tax in 2003 and a tiny not not not .5% in 2015. Evdn low | :37:00. | :37:09. | |
corporation tax rates are no guarantee a country will collect its | :37:10. | :37:19. | |
fair share. Apple are entitled to defend the position but the case | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
highlights for me the need for more transparency in multination`l | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
business affairs. Finally, ly final point. Having listened to the | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
government's concerns and shared with mir garments for today was Mike | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
amendment I hope the House can come together and make Yuki country by | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
country reporting not a matter of if but when. Thank you. I rise not to | :37:43. | :37:53. | |
detain the House for an undtlating lengthy time because I know everyone | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
wants to get to bed before lidnight but I just want to set out by | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
country by country porting hs very important. Why it is the whole | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
culture which has grown up on too many cases of tax avoidance by large | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
big business multinationals is something which we cannot condone. | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
We cannot tolerate. People say what is wrong with an organisation like | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
Apple organising its tax affairs to its best possible advantage. Is it | :38:21. | :38:27. | |
not the principle of taxation? Is it not the principle of taxation that | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
knows no equity in taxation? The Latrobe taxation rules should apply. | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
I concern is the conduct of Apple is unacceptable for three key reasons. | :38:38. | :38:44. | |
In a big business it organises its tax fears so it basically p`ys no | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
tax whatsoever then it is inevitably warping the free market bec`use it | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
is getting an unfair tax advantage on a competitive advantage `nd it | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
gives them a competitive advantage over other enterprises that are | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
paying tax on their profits. That, to me, is a really serious hssue. | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
The other issue with Apple hn Ireland is to have the spechal deal | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
for one business that does not apply to everyone else is counter to the | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
fundamental principle of thd rule of law which is everyone should be | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
treated the same. DVD cleandr cleaning the offices of Apple or be | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
the Apple themselves. What hs offensive is a situation whdre the | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
cleaner in the offices being more in tax than the massive profit`ble | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
enterprise whose office thex are cleaning. Let me take the c`se of | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
Apple. My honourable friend the Right Honourable member for walking | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
made the powerful point. He said what is wrong if they have created | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
all this intellectual property? What is wrong with it not been c`ught in | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
a UK tax set? I answer is, hf this intellectual property was | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
emphatically to dent the Lucan Valley, are the paying tax hn | :40:00. | :40:06. | |
silicon valley? No, they ard not. What they have done is set tp the | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
structure we are early in the evolution as a business, ten or 20 | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
years ago, he sold the outshde American intellectual property | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
rights for whatever small alount it was to a leader company that would | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
then have a conduit through Ireland that with denim vest across the rest | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
of Europe. What you then do is you check the box for US tax purposes | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
and everything below are yot do so from the IRS point of view ht looks | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
like your Bermuda company is the trading company and because it is a | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
trading company and the onlx enterprise the is for US tax | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
purposes it is therefore not caught by the foreign companies regulations | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
meaning that no tax can be deemed to be repatriated to the United States. | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
As a result the situation is that the Bermuda enterprise becoles a | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
cash box or reinvestment across the area across the European thdatre and | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
hence even lies your unfair advantage. I give way. | :41:10. | :41:20. | |
I expressed no view on Appld's tax affairs one way or the other. I | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
asked how we as legislators globally produce a system that is fahr and | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
sensible so that people know what companies should be playing. I have | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
not studied in detail Apple's tax affairs, so I would not presume to | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
lecture for or against what they do. I stand corrected by my Right | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
Honourable Friend. It is not simply a problem with Apple, it is a | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
question with genuine US outbound tax planning and that is whx country | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
by country reporting really does matter. I give way. I agree with the | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
points he is making. It is ly understanding that if my Right | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
Honourable Friend's amendment had applied in Ireland in the c`se of | :42:05. | :42:07. | |
Apple, then B would have known of the very large profits being made by | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
the scum that seems to exist on paper and that it was paying a tiny | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
amount of tax. Wouldn't that have been a valuable step forward in | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
understanding what was going on The key issue is that we did know, | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
because as I recall, Apple had to report it in some investigation for | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
the Senate, because the US Senate was wondering why no tax had been | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
paid, or very little tax had been paid by Apple in the United States, | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
and if my recollection servds me correctly, a fellow member of this | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
House may well correctly. The issue is one of transparency. These things | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
come to light because the US Senate makes an investigation or some other | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
enterprise organisation likd the Public Accounts Committee m`kes an | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
investigation and starts asking the questions or indeed in the last | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
Parliament, I myself went through the accounts of Google, Amazon and | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
Starbucks and looked at what they were playing as a proportion of | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
profits, and that is why I think country by country reporting is | :43:13. | :43:15. | |
something which ought to be looked at, ought to be considered `nd on an | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
international basis. It is hmportant that countries as a whole Act | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
together to make sure that the international tax system is suitably | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
robust in the Internet age. The reason this matters is thesd big | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
businesses, when they don't pay tax, could affect small businessds, | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
because it is the small bushness rooted in our soil that employs our | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
neighbours that pays their Jews who suffer when the competitive | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
advantage and the level plaxing field, the rule of law, whatever, is | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
being walked in this way, and that is my prime concern, becausd small | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
businesses in my section C `re the lifeblood of my local econoly and I | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
want them to have a fair cr`ck. I want the terms of allegiancd of this | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
great nation that I represent, England Wales and Scotland, do have | :44:05. | :44:10. | |
a fair crack and to be able to come, particularly in Brexit Brit`in it is | :44:11. | :44:12. | |
important for the country to be galvanised to be part of thd | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
leadership of this nation and that is why we work -- we want a Britain | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
that works with a 90%, the towns and nations of the region rather than | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
big businesses and the elitd 10 . That is really important and that is | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
why we need a tax system th`t works for everyone. I have been ddeply | :44:29. | :44:37. | |
concerned looking at the accounts of car rental agencies like Avhs, that | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
have imposed a Brexit tax, or was accused of imposing a Brexit tax on | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
people renting cars. And I looked at their account and saw that @vis had | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
paid no tax themselves, so they taxed their British customers but | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
don't seem to pay any British corporation tax on their profits. | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
The honourable gentleman has made an incredibly powerful speech `bout the | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
reasons for tracks -- taxed transparency but when you mdntion is | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
company like Avis, we should be having transparency for one simple | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
reason only, so that consumdrs can vote with their feet, and if they | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
believe that the products they are purchasing from companies that are | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
not paying tax in this country or others in other countries, they can | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
go and buy products from others that are paying tax. It is a powdrful | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
point, and that is why transparency matters. If people know that they | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
are being taken for a ride they don't need to use that organisation | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
which uses a Luxembourg strtcture, a common intermediate structure for | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
European tax planning to organise things so that no tax needs to be | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
paid. And it is not just Avhs. I had a look at the account of Hertz, | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
another large US car rental company that doesn't seem to have p`id any | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
tax in the last few years. Ht is hard to tell how they are doing it, | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
because I have looked in grdat detail at the accounts, and the | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
accounts don't have to report related party transactions but they | :46:08. | :46:09. | |
might will be renting their car fleets through Luxembourg, or the | :46:10. | :46:19. | |
Netherlands BV, to get monex out of the UK tax net so that it is not | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
subject to any tax, and that is why country by country reporting is | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
important, not just as a tax context but in an accounting context so that | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
we can see where the money has gone. Avis are paying more in the | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
intercompany borrowings than they are paying to borrow from the bank, | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
so that, too, gave me a levdl of concern and there seemed to be some | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
framework royalties in therd, some royalties to do with the IT computer | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
systems that they have internally, but it is hard to tell, bec`use they | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
don't have that level of gr`nularity from the accounts. The case I am | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
making is that we ought to have a greater level of knowledge, we ought | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
to have a greater level of understanding of how money has been | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
paid and the taxes that are due and the nature of the planning which is | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
being undertaken, in order to make our laws more robust and so that we | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
can make sure that everyone in this nation pays a fair share of tax | :47:22. | :47:29. | |
even the cleaner, even the biggest, largest enterprise trading hn this | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
country. It matters to the rule of law, to the fair and open m`rket and | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
the level and competitive playing field that all businesses and | :47:36. | :47:44. | |
enterprises are treated the same. Mike Wood. Thank you, Madam 50 | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
Speaker. As a conservative H believe that taxes need to be kept `s low as | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
possible whether direct or hndirect, consistent with the need to raise | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
finances for vital public sdrvices and for national security. Not only | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
does unnecessarily high tax`tion stunt growth and development, it | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
also means the government t`king from those who have earned that | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
money, whether through labotr, through innovation or capit`l. | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
However, the flip side of kdeping tax levels low is that everxbody | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
must pay their fair share. Aggressive tax avoidance, bdnding | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
the rules of the tax system to gain an advantage that Parliament never | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
intended, means that a heavher burden falls on others who `re able | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
to keep less of the money that they have earned. This government is | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
rightly committed to supporting businesses through low taxes and | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
that is why corporation tax has been cut again, to 17%, but thosd taxes | :48:48. | :48:54. | |
have to be paid. And so this Finance Bill addresses the many ways that | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
companies use to avoid paying their fair level of tax, and that includes | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
the amendments that we are debating, tabled by the government to reform | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
hybrid mismatches. These amdndments will reduce aggressive tax planning, | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
typically involving a multinational group, the introduction of the rules | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
will essentially remove the tax advantage arising from the tse of | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
hybrid entities and instrumdnts and all to encourage more busindsses to | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
adopt less complicated, mord transparent cross-border investment | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
structures. I look forward to similar rules being introduced by | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
other jurisdictions and in line with OECD recommendations, this | :49:43. | :49:49. | |
legislation continues, cont`ins provisions for counteraction within | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
the UK, where the other country does not counteract the mismatch within | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
its own hybrid mismatch rulds. This Bill introduces the new pen`lty of | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
60% of tax due, that was announced in the budget, to be charged in all | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
cases successfully tackled by the general anti-avoidance regulations. | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
Amendments 136, 137, tabled by the government, helped to make sure that | :50:23. | :50:25. | |
the changes announced in thd budget work as intended, cracking down | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
further on unscrupulous, aggressive tax avoidance. I agree with the | :50:32. | :50:39. | |
comments raised by My Honourable Friend for Dover Deal on country | :50:40. | :50:48. | |
by country reporting and of course, those raised so regularly bx the | :50:49. | :50:56. | |
honourable lady for Sheffield.. Sorry, Don Valley! There is | :50:57. | :51:06. | |
widespread and growing agredment across all parts of this Hotse that | :51:07. | :51:14. | |
there is a need to move tow`rds country by country reporting, so | :51:15. | :51:21. | |
that that information is published, it is out there, it is available | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
both to national tax authorhties but also, as has been mentioned of | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
course, the wider public, so the question comes back to weather the | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
best way of achieving that hs for individual countries to Act | :51:34. | :51:40. | |
unilaterally or for the UK to move in partnership with our | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
international allies and through a range of international | :51:46. | :51:46. | |
organisations, both within `nd beyond Europe. Of course. I thank | :51:47. | :51:57. | |
him. Of course, we on these benches want international action and | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
cooperation and, in fact, wd want our international friends to copy | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
what I hope will be successful in remembrance tonight. We also need to | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
bear in mind that half of the taxation in the world are British | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
Overseas Territories. We have a particular responsibility in this | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
regard worldwide. It is not just some kind of moral responsibility, | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
to use the old phrase of thd white man's burden or any of that | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
nonsense, it is to do with the fact that they are British Oversdas | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
Territories who are responshble for half of the shenanigans. I think the | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
honourable gentleman makes ` very valid point. However, I think I am | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
sure that he would recognisd the progress that has been made in | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
recent years to insist on those overseas territories, reallx, moving | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
into the 21st century in terms of their tax arrangements, to `ctually | :52:54. | :53:01. | |
comply with what we would expect for international standards. Because in | :53:02. | :53:08. | |
a globalised world, we must be clear that concerted international effort | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
is needed to stop the continued cross-border tax avoidance, evasion | :53:13. | :53:19. | |
or plain all fashioned, aggressive but as Google is planning. ,- | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
old-fashioned. The UK Government has done more than any -- but | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
unscrupulous planning. The TK Government has done more th`n most | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
international allies and colpetitors to eradicate these practices and | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
continues to do so. But, of course, more must be done, and I welcome the | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
assurances that we have heard from the government that this dods remain | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
a priority. I am pleased th`t the government is now issuing country by | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
country reporting and that ht will be discussed at the forthcoling G8 | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
20 finance ministers' meeting. This measure will help to increase that | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
transparency across multinationals, supporting not only our own tax | :54:12. | :54:16. | |
authorities but perhaps even more importantly, those tax authorities | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
in developing countries, whhch are being almost literally robbdd of | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
vital sources of income. Madam Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, this | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
Finance Bill and the amendmdnts tabled to it includes both | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
pioneering and bold measures. It will ensure that taxes are paid and | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
that everybody pays their f`ir share, and I look forward to | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
supporting it this evening. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would remhnd the | :54:49. | :54:55. | |
House that in the register of interests I have declared that I am | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
a registered investment advhsor but I am not speaking on their behalf in | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
this debate. It seems to me that there is common ground amongst all | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
parties in this House that we need to collect a decent amount of tax | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
revenue and that we want to make sure that those who are rich, | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
particularly companies, that seemed to generate a lot of turnovdr and | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
possibly profit should pay their fair share. And we do recognise I | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
think, that we have to oper`te in a global market, I'm talking `bout | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
large corporations who, gentinely, make different levels of profit and | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
generate different amounts of turnover in different jurisdictions | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
and have genuinely complicated arrangements of how they swhtch | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
components, technology, ide`s, work, between different centres. Dven in a | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
service business, you're dohng it through electronic communic`tion, | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
digital activity, and there may be different people in different | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
centres around the world, all contributing to servicing that | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
client or dealing with that particular product, so therd are | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
genuine issues for the honest companies in trying to define and | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
measure precisely where work is done, were added value is created, | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
what is a fair attribution. I think we, as lettuce two litres, | :56:09. | :56:18. | |
have to understand that complexity and come up with the judgment over | :56:19. | :56:26. | |
what is a fair way to instrtct these companies to report in our different | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
jurisdictions so that sensible amounts of tax are captured. We also | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
need to remember that we as legislators help create the problem | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
that offends quite a lot of MPs We do speak with forked tongue when it | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
comes to tax matters. Quite often in this House when discussing tax is | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
wanting to offer tax breaks. The House will say we would likd | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
companies to do more ad and the order we would like companids to | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
invest more in plant and eqtipment or we would like individuals to save | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
for retirement or we would like individuals to save generally ought | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
to be entrepreneurial, create a business and sell at any few users | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
at a good profit. We collectively decide that we should encourage more | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
of that conduct by letting people off income tax or capital g`ins tax | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
or corporation tax or some combination of general taxes as an | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
incentive to them to behave in the way we would like. We must therefore | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
take some responsibility for tax avoidance. Obviously not for | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
lawbreaking but for those who use the tax breaks we provide. We are | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
now trying to define somethhng which is not strict lawbreaking which we | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
will condemn and is an enforcement matter and something which hsn't | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
friendly tax incentive which we probably all still agree about. I | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
expect every MP in this House thinks something should be encouraged I tax | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
incentive. You are trying to define something in the middle which has | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
been called aggressive avoidance heard they are elements of doubt. | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
That is where legislators nded to do a better job because we need to be | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
able to say two companies this is illegal conduct and you will be | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
prosecuted and everything else is legal conduct and meets your | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
obligations. If we find we `re not collecting enough tax may bd the | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
problem lies with us and maxbe we have two review the whole r`nge of | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
incentives and tax breaks wd are offering because that may bd the | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
origin of the problem that we may not seem to be collecting as much | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
tax as may be collectively we would like to meet the requirements of our | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
public services and other ndeds So, Mr Speaker, I will keep my remarks | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
suitably brief that I think the needy certain amount of humhlity as | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
legislators. It is very easx to get on a high horse about indivhduals or | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
rich companies. Some do takd the law. They need to be prosectted | :59:02. | :59:10. | |
Many others are honestly trxing to report their tax affairs, | :59:11. | :59:12. | |
complicated as the art, in lultiple good restrictions. When we see that | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
we this evening are debating a 44 page edition to our tax codds and | :59:19. | :59:25. | |
that is just one medium-sizdd country and the multination`l | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
company may have two report to 0, 40 or 50 different countries all of | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
whom are generating different tax codes on a monumental scale, I think | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
we should just pause and ask ourselves are we getting in the way | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
of levying set tax by the vdry complexity of the rules we `re | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
establishing? Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will speak to a number of | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
amendments in my name and that of my honourable friends. New clatse 2 | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
which would require the govdrnment to report within one year on the | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
impact of the criminal offences relating to offshore income, asset | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
and activities created by clause one 65. Amendments 167 and 168 which | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
will make it compulsory rather than just possible for each MRC to | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
publish the names of those that hide behind entities such as companies | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
and trusts when committing offshore tax evasion. Amendments 171 two 173 | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
which expand the definition of reasonable referred to in clause 165 | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
to include an honest belief that all the information was true and | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
accurate. We are concerned on this side of the House that the category | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
of reasonableness is, on its own, far too objective that subjdct is. | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
The clause which would strengthen the penalty of enablers of offshore | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
tax evaders to have fees received by the enabler of the service `nd the | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
principle of just enrichment as it were. The aim of this is to | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
neutralise somewhat the comlercial aspect of the tax avoidance | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
industry. Amendments 165 and 16 which increased the minimum | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
penalties for inaccuracies, failure to notify a charge to tax or build | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
your to deliver a return to offshore matters and tax return by 14% rather | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
than the government's suggested 10%. In the consultation for | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
strengthening penalties for offshore evaders the considered incrdasing | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
the penalty by 15% rather than ten. This is probing to find out why the | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
government opted for the sm`ller increase than it originally | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
considered. Up next we have measure 170 which would increase from 1 % to | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
15%. The government consult`tion on this penalty site different rates of | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
such an asset base penalty `cross the world including Italy where the | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
penalty is up to 15%. The opposition which I will expand on in a moment | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
think we must be world leaddrs in stamping out tax avoidance `nd so I | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
think our penalty should at the very least be on par with Presiddnt | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
across the world. These pen`lties are at least a start but I would | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
also add in light of the latest confrontation in relation to | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
tackling offshore tax evasion which would create a separate offdnce is | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
not covered by the scope of this bill, the appears to be a clear move | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
by stakeholders to suggest dven higher penalties are requirdd. I | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
would urge the government to consider the suggestions thdre very, | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
very carefully. I would also like to confirm this side's support of | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
cross-party amendment 145 on public country by country reporting which | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
was tabled by the Right Honourable member for Don Valley. I wotld like | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
to place on record my thanks to her for the hard work she has ptt into | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
presenting this very import`nt issue and it is testament to that hard | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
work that many members across the House including members of PAC and | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
more than 60 MPs and eight political parties as the Right Honour`ble | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
member illustrated, pass organisations outside of thhs place | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
have supported this amendment and it really is testament to the hard work | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
she has put into pressing this issue. I will not go over growing | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
the Right Honourable member has covered already. She has put her | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
case articulately. This will ensure the UK has the scope to strdngthen | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
its influence on international tax transparency negotiations and it | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
will build a greater consensus. Finally, new clause 13 would require | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
a comprehensive report into the UK tax gap which is defined as the | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
difference in any financial year between the amount of tax e`ch MRC | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
should be entitled to collect and the tax actually collected with such | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
difference deriving from tax avoidance and evasion. The content | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
of the report as set out in the amendment text must be carrhed out | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
in consultation with stakeholders. It intends to examine a number of | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
areas relating to tax avoid`nce in the hope that the government might | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
review its policy and tailored the same in relation to adequatdly | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
dealing with such issues. Chiefly for the members present for the | :04:34. | :04:42. | |
moment... I will give way. H thank the Shadow Minister for givhng way. | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
In terms of new clause 13 would it not also expose the idiocy of | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
closing HMRC offices which the government are banning to close 90% | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
of them and would it also allows members to look at the numbdr of | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
staff in HMRC looking at tax avoidance and the number of staff in | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
DWP, 3675 who are dealing whth .2 billion of Social Security fraud? | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
The member makes a very good point. It is the report to highlight | :05:15. | :05:22. | |
deficiencies found in HMRC hn terms of the ability to tackle tax | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
avoidance and other members who will be the amendment will see the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
particular point relating to HMRC goes into a lot of details. The flag | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
will touch on some of the point the report will require. It will require | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
figures relating to UK tax that s what the last five financial years. | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
The tales of the model used by HMRC for estimating the UK tax g`p. An | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
assessment of the HMRC efficacy in dealing with the UK tax gap. Details | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
of tax revenue benefits of dngaging only company registers in the UK for | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
tax purposes in public proctrement. It will also require an assdssment | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
of the efficacy of the general anti-abuse rule in discouraging tax | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
avoidance. It will require consideration of the benefits to tax | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
revenue from introducing a set of minimum standards in relation to tax | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
transparency for all ready ground dependencies and overseas | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
territories. Finally it will require an assessment of the impact on tax | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
revenues of establishing a public register of all trusts located | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
within the UK, British Crown dependencies and overseas | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
territories. The amendments we have tabled today are necessary no more | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
than ever. I appreciate we `re limited in terms of time today and | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
as that will only be pushing new clause 13 to evil and will support | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
the right Honourable member for Don Valley should she wish to ptsh her | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
amendment to a vote. We support new clause seven which has been | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
particularly outlined why the member for Cowdenbeath. In terms of the | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
other amendments I have refdrred to I hope the minister will listen | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
carefully to the comments I have made throughout my speech today The | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
government will have ample opportunity outside the scope of | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
today's bill. If the will is there to implement many of the repuests I | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
have made. I will explain the rationale behind our various | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
amendments today. The law on tax avoidance as been influenced by the | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
words of Lord Tomlin in the case of Duke of Westminster versus the | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
Inland Revenue Commissioners in 1935. Lord Tomlin decided it was the | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
right of every Englishman to organise his fears to minimhse his | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
liability to tax. An idea that fuels the tax avoidance industry dven | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
today. In this age of so-called is with pressure on the NHS, the Armed | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
Forces, our teachers, our young people, the list goes on, it is not | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
acceptable to seek to avoid your taxes. I think Honourable mdmbers of | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
all sides of this House havd come to agree that tax avoidance is | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
something that should be fotght The trouble is, however, that this | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
government has failed to tackle the problem head-on and simply tinkering | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
about with piecemeal bits hdre and there is no different in thhs | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
finance bill. What we need to see from this government is a rdal | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
commitment to an overarching strategy that provides genuhne legal | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
teeth to tackle the million`ire Dodgers and advisers who surround | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
them. If I may take members on a little historical magical mxstery | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
tour it was judges, not Parliament, in the 1980s who developed ` | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
principle which did actuallx put the dead in the tax avoidance industry. | :08:52. | :08:57. | |
The so-called Ramsay doctrine. The principle provided that arthficial | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
tax avoidance schemes should be analysed as a whole instead of | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
analysing each piece separately This meant clever tax schemds could | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
be dismantled by taking all the artificial elements out and what was | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
left would be taxed as if the artificial elements never existed. | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
The effect was huge in terms of attacking tax avoidance schdmes And | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
fortunately, however, over the years, case law has moved on | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
somewhat. We have now returned to a world in which tax law is now | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
considered to be a matter entirely of statutory interpretation. They | :09:34. | :09:36. | |
are no general principles at work which can be used when lookhng at | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
combating tax avoidance and practice. Our tax statutes `re | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
extraordinarily long and very detailed. This is meat and drink to | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
tax specialists. Anyone in this House my age and above might | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
remember the Peanuts cartoons and the is an episode I remember in | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
which Linus says now I know the rules I know how to get arotnd them. | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
Linus could have been a tax lawyer. The love claim by the rules and we | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
should not underestimate thd expertise and determination of the | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
tax avoidance community. Ond tax law specialist told me recently about | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
something really harrowing `bout a firm of accountants in the 0990s. He | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
was eased seven piece of legislation to tax any trust which shifted | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
offshore. The exception to that rule arose if one of the trustees died | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
and the trust shifted offshore as a consequence. These accountants | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
canvassed the council ward to see if the relevance of people dying of | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
cancer would be prepared to have their family member signed tp to act | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
as a trustee of their client's trusts. The solitary assurances that | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
the patient would die soon `nd promised to pay a small fee. This is | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
an extreme case but it is an example of the debts to which peopld will | :11:02. | :11:08. | |
think to avoid paying taxes. It is how loopholes in particular can be | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
found in the depths of legislation. We need a general avoidance | :11:11. | :11:25. | |
principle that is broadly drawn so that it will empower the cotrts to | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
interpret all tax Law purposefully. This is something that many of us on | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
this side of the House and hndeed the TUC have been calling for, but | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
the government attempts so far have been piecemeal, at best. To | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
continue, in terms of a gendral anti-avoidance principle, fhrstly, | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
we have a narrow rule in thd Finance Act of 2013 which focused only on | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
abuse of arrangements. Thesd arrangements have to be considered | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
to be unreasonable by a pandl of industry tax experts before HMRC | :11:58. | :12:06. | |
could Act. This is an all this example of a panel of experts being | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
advised on how to actually catch poachers, essentially. Alternatively | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
we might think of them being turkeys being asked to advise about the menu | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
for Christmas lunch. Secondly, in this government's timid tax | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
avoidance legislation, we h`ve a slight broadening out of th`t rule | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
to impose penalties on tax avoidance. Fourthly, we havd | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
provision to catch those who enable tax evaders, and now there's a | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
consultation on whether those who enable tax avoiders should be | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
treated similarly. It is all far too slow and far too little. As the | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
Minister knows, by the numbdr of amendments we have made tod`y and on | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
previous occasions in this House, the legislation doesn't havd the | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
strength or clarity it deserves We can continue to tinker with | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
successive Finance bills, trying to stick plasters over deficient tax | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
legislation or we can develop a comprehensive tax avoidance strategy | :13:07. | :13:08. | |
with heavyweight legislation to match. The Labour Party has tabled | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
new clause 13 to encourage the government to carry out a | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
wide-ranging report into thd UK tax gap, as I mentioned earlier. It is | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
hoped this report will help the government to assess carefully the | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
current pressure points and areas of weakness in its current tax | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
avoidance policy. Now we ard limited by the scope of today's Fin`nce Bill | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
in calling for a report specifically, but Labour is | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
committed to a full public hnquiry on this matter and I would welcome | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
the minister's support for that This whole sorry mess, from the | :13:44. | :13:47. | |
exposure of offshore tax havens with the Panama Papers, with the largest | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
corporations in the world bding next to nothing in tax, investment banks | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
using financial interest to avoid tax and clever tax advisers | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
designing off-the-peg avoid`nce schemes, this needs to be exposed to | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
the disinfecting properties of daylight, and it means disinfecting, | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
because, quite rightly, it stinks. We need transparency in the tax | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
system and Apple inquiry to design a system that will challenge the tax | :14:16. | :14:22. | |
avoidance industry and we nded to change the tax laws so that they are | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
based on broad principles which make it difficult to avoid them. Then we | :14:26. | :14:31. | |
must find HMRC so that they can take the fight to the tax dodgers by | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
arming them with better tax statute and by starving them with more | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
highly qualified staff. We lust provide them with real support in | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
combating tax avoidance. Thd Panama Papers is a symptom of another | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
well-known disease. Many of the most appalling tax havens are Brhtish | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
Overseas Territories or protectorates. We must recognise we | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
have allowed this to happen. Labour's new clause 13 asks the | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
government to explore the rdgion of a set of minimum standards hn | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
relation to tax transparenches for all British Crown dependenches and | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
overseas territories. Furthdr to this it is imperative for the | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
Foreign and Commonwealth Office to work seriously with Crown | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
dependencies and the British Overseas Territories to est`blish | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
genuine information sharing, to be transparent about the ownership of | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
trusts and companies in thehr territory, and to stop enabling the | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
tax avoidance industry to flourish on their shores. By allowing the | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
wealthy tax dodgers of the world to put the money in these placds, we | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
ensure that billions of pounds, dollars Andy Rose are lost to the | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
public finances of the world, and as a result, hospitals are not built, | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
schools are not refurbished, jobs are lost. Misery and depriv`tion in | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
our communities, here in thd UK is caused by tax avoidance. So it is | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
time to stop taking pieceme`l action in fighting tax avoidance. Ht is | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
time the government dealt whth the problem head on. If the govdrnment | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
actually wanted to do anythhng about the tax avoidance industry ht would | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
lift its head up from fiddlhng about with the detail of successive | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
finance bills and agreement -- agree with the amendments we have tabled | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
today. The Labour Party is calling for the new Britain which whll be | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
making its way out of the ET to take a central role in the OECD | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
initiative to fight tax avohdance and other tax dodgers, to stpport | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
the EU's recent initiative to confront billions of dollars being | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
avoided by the world's largdst corporations. Mr Speaker, wd must | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
stop this game that the tax dodgers and their well-paid advisors play | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
with HMRC. We have got to stop this war and dysfunctional dance between | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
them in which sweetheart de`ls are done with companies like Vodafone, | :16:53. | :16:58. | |
Google and Goldman Sachs. Wd must invest in HMRC. We must simplify | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
other tax codes, and we must build our laws on the simple principle | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
that being part of our socidty means paying your fair share towards the | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
upkeep of that society. Now, if members of this House are in | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
agreement with those very b`sic principles I would urge thel to | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
support the amendments were put forward today, as a small step | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
towards this goal. Ultimately, I hope that the Minister has listened | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
carefully, because we certahnly deserve much more than the few tax | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
avoidance divisions -- provhsions contained within today's bill, and I | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
would like to formally move new clause 13. Thank you very mtch, Mr | :17:37. | :17:48. | |
Speaker. It has been a very wide-ranging and at times p`ssionate | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
debate. I would like to address the amendments the government are making | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
before turning to those amendments and new clauses tabled by the | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
opposition. Mr Speaker, govdrnment amendments 136, 137, clause 255 | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
this is to make an administrative change to strengthen the general | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
anti-abuse rules procedural efficiency and amendments 136, 37, | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
to make small technical changes that cause which incorporate the new | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
terms introduced by clause 036, and these new terms produce a ndw way of | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
countering the procedure to enable the same advisory panel opinion to | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
apply to multiple users of larketed tax avoidance schemes. We bdlieve | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
these changes will streamline the procedure without automating the | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
fundamental test that taxpaxers are subject to under the GAR. Wd will | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
enable tax to be protected for the cases we intend to address. Let me | :18:53. | :19:01. | |
turn now to amendment 145, loved by the right honourable lady, the | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
member for Don Valley. This would give the Treasury the power to | :19:06. | :19:12. | |
publish a country by countrx report showing their profits, taxes paid | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
and other financial information in the countries in which they operate. | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
As was acknowledged by the right honourable lady and others hn this | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
date, the UK has led intern`tional efforts. I think that the honourable | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
lady speaking from the French - front bench has been a little bit | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
miserable about the leadership that the UK has shown. I didn't recognise | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
the description she applied. Others were more generous and have noted | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
the fact that the UK has led those international efforts, rightly, to | :19:43. | :19:44. | |
tackle tax avoidance by multinational enterprises, for all | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
of the reasons so brilliantly articulated like My Honourable | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
Friend, the member for Dover Deal. The government has been a fhrm | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
supporter of greater tax transparency and greater public | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
disclosure of the tax affairs of large businesses and, for these | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
reasons, the government fully supports the intentions of the | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
amendment as supporting its inclusion in the bill. The | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
government has consistently pushed for a multilateral system for | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
country by country reporting. The Chancellor made the case for looking | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
at this at the G20 in July. Amendment 145 is very much hn | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
keeping with this aim, and provides a government with the power to | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
implement when appropriate. It is nonetheless important that the power | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
is used to deliver co-present and effective model as acknowledged by | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
the right honourable lady of country by country reporting agreed on a | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
multilateral basis, and I al sure that we will return to this issue on | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
the basis on which we can go forward, but it means a moddl that | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
requires all groups, both UK headquartered and non-UK | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
headquartered, the report information for the full range of | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
countries in which they operate It is vital for ensuring that the | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
policy intention of greater transparency is delivered. Ht is | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
important for ensuring that UK headquartered groups are not put at | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
a competitive disadvantage `nd again I pay tribute to the right | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
honourable lady in recognishng that concern as was expressed earlier in | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
the year, and that disclosure requirements cannot be avoided | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
through group restructuring, another issue that we want to make sure that | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
we on top. The government rdmains focused on getting internathonal | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
agreement for such a model `s part of its continued efforts to ensure | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
that taxes are paid, and pahd in jurisdictions where economic | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
activities take place. She `nd the House have my assurance that the | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
government will continue to take every opportunity to champion this | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
agenda at international levdl. And it is increasingly clear th`t we | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
move forward with a welcome degree of agreement across this Hotse. Let | :21:53. | :22:00. | |
me turn to Labour amendments 163-168. Of course. Can I thank the | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
honourable lady for the govdrnment decision to support my amendment? I | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
do hope that we can work together to look at ways in which we can make | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
the journey to introducing ht in this country, with others, ` real | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
possibility in future. Indedd. And we have seen in other areas where we | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
have shown leadership how mtch can happen in a short space of time so | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
I think we're optimistic th`t we can make progress. And as I say, with a | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
welcome degree of consensus across the House. Turning to amendlents | :22:34. | :22:41. | |
163- Non Stanford 68, 173, new clause 12, concerning penalties for | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
offshore tax avoidance and dvasion. And clause 161, scheduled 20, | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
creates new civil penalties for those who deliberately assist | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
taxpayers to evade UK inherhtance tax, capital gains tax or income tax | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
by offshore means. It would introduce financial penaltids at | :23:03. | :23:10. | |
100% of the tax evaded. Amendments 163, 164 would include withhn the | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
provisions the option of ch`rging a penalty of up to 100% of anx fee | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
paid by the taxpayer to the enabler for the enabling service received. | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
Mr Speaker, the fees charged by organisations can take a vast array | :23:26. | :23:28. | |
of different structures and formats. Without a clear constitution of what | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
the fee is all relates to the services provided, it would be | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
disproportionately burdensole for HMRC to apply and you such ` | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
penalty, and a penalty based on tax lost is a much clearer and lore | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
easily defined concept, we believe, which better means the objective of | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
sending a strong and clear deterrent. Amendments 165 and 1 6 | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
will increase the minimum pdnalties charged for deliberate offshore tax | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
has increased the sanctions that can has increased the sanctions that can | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
incentive to taxpayers to However, we must balance thhs | :24:06. | :24:17. | |
voluntarily comply and coopdrate with HMRC, and so, we do believe | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
therefore that the arrangemdnts we have set out provide a good balance. | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
As with all penalties we kedp the rates under review. Amendments 67 | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
and 168 would make it compulsory for HMRC to publish details of tax | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
defaulters who meet the reldvant criteria. Public naming incdntivises | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
evaders to come forward and cooperate but it allows namhng of | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
those who refuse to cooperate with HMRC, and in the vast majorhty of | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
cases we would expect HMRC to name those who meet the criteria. | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
However, mandatory publicathon would be inappropriate in some particular | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
exceptional circumstances or perhaps where there were wider consdquences | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
such as economic market imp`cts from the information becoming public | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
Clause 164, scheduled 22, introduces new asset base penalties for the | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
most serious cases of delibdrate onshore tax evasion, where the tax | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
loss exceeds 25,000 added ldvy a penalty of 10% of the value of the | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
asset connected to the evashon, in to any other pack stew and hnterest | :25:24. | :25:34. | |
penalties G. -- do. This level of penalty was carefully considered | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
when it was set. Accounting for international comparisons as the | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
honourable lady did with thdir two, and for the fact that it is a new | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
approach to penalties for the UK in relation to tax matters. Thd | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
government has also consultdd and engaged with stakeholders, balancing | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
the arguments they set out. We feel that the legislation as it currently | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
stands at allows a substanthal penalty for deliberate tax dvasion | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
and will provide a signific`nt deterrent. However, it is not clear | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
that the 5% increase in the maximum would significantly increasd the | :26:07. | :26:07. | |
impact of the penalty. Increasing our ability to prosecute. | :26:08. | :26:30. | |
A successful conviction unddr this new offence cooed result in a fine | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
or a prison sentence of up to six months. The new criminal offence is | :26:36. | :26:45. | |
expected to come into effect from the 2017 /18 tax period. We feel it | :26:46. | :26:54. | |
makes the amendment redundant. Amendments 171 two 170 will | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
introduce a further defence to this criminal offence where the person | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
believed the information thd supply to HMRC was true and accurate but | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
these do not work in practice. The part of the cause to which they | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
relate is the offence of fahlure to notify HMRC of charge ability and | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
failure to make a return. In both of these cases no information would | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
have been supplied to HMRC `nd so no offence could be applied. | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
Inaccuracies and documents the amendment we feel is unnecessary. | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
The offence already had the defence of having taken reasonable care to | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
get your affairs right which would imply the taxpayer believed they | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
were true and accurate. Let me return to new clause seven loved by | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
the member for Cowdenbeath. That would legislate for the revhew of | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
the impact of the tax regimd on Scottish limited partnerships. On | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
the levels of tax avoidance and evasion. A Scottish limited | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
partnership is treated for tax purposes as the tax transparent | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
vehicle in the same way as ` limited partnership that is established in | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
England and or Wales is. Lilited powers as established in Scotland | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
that he set out in moving the clause has a separate legal person`lity | :28:16. | :28:18. | |
which means the partnership itself can own assets and enter into | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
contracts. The government is committed to effectively tackling | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
tax avoidance, invasion and effective tax planning incltding | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
partnerships have evolved and have secured over an additional ?130 | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
billion in an compliance yidld since 2010. Last month the governlent | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
launched a consultation looking at partnership taxation includhng | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
proposals to clarify the tax treatment for various types of | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
partnership. We will welcomd the SNP's engagement in that exdrcise | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
and I would like to offer somebody assurance with regard to thd recent | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
allegations in the media regarding the use of SLP is by crimin`l | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
organisations. The government takes extremely seriously the points that | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
have been raised and is working collaboratively across departments | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
and law enforcement agencies to the bus late tackle crime and fraud | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
Lieber new clause that team calls upon the government to report into | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
the UK tax gap. Apologies if she said this, I was not clear. With the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
minister please let us know whether or not she is going to support an | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
inclusion in new clause sevdn on the basis she has just made it clear why | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
it is very Portland and a good idea for us to do this? If she is not | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
willing to support Iguchi jtstified by the government is willing to | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
leave this loophole and discussed without review? As I just l`id out a | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
consultation is underway whhch gives us an opportunity to look at exactly | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
these issues. I am bite the SNP to engage with that. Turning to the | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
lengthy speech and the case that was made for Labour's Mac new clause 13, | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
the report into the UK tax gap, the tax gap is a traditional st`tistic | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
published date October which is produced in association with the | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
code of practice which ensures integrity. The methodology hs | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
replied by third parties to be robust it is intense lovely reviewed | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
to be given a clean bill of health by The International Monetary Fund | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
and scrutinised by the audit office. The there is no need for a report | :30:32. | :30:38. | |
into the tax gap. HMRC publhshed and methodological annex alongshde the | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
tax gap publication which provides details of the data and methodology | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
used to produce estimates of the tax gap. In the course of moving new | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
clause 13 the Honourable lady speaking for the opposition painted | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
a picture which I think on this side of the House and I suspect hn other | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
parts of the House would be regarded as, at the very least, ungenerous. | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
In many ways and accurate, tnfair and unrecognisable in terms of the | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
way it downplayed the effort that have been taken by this govdrnment | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
in these areas. To call it tinkering at the edges is simply nonsdnse | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
Since 2010 the government h`s provided HMRC with ?1.8 billion to | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
tackle evasion, avoidance and noncompliance. Over that PDB HMRC | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
have secured an additional 030 billion in additional tax rdvenues. | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
We have shown considerable `mbition and, indeed, as other members on the | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
opposition side have indeed been generous enough to acknowledge, | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
international leadership. I do not accept the criticism that wdre | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
voiced from the front bench and it is worth noting that at somd budget | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
2015 the government invested a further ?850 million to fund | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
additional work to tackle t`x evasion and noncompliance. Now | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
government and certainly in particular the last Labour | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
government have come close to being as ambitious as we have been since | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
2010 on this important agenda and, indeed, the extent to which actually | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
there was considerable agredment across the House in the earlier part | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
of the debate and the fact that the government has accepted the Right | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
Honourable lady for Don Valley's amendment. It gives some wedk to the | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
fact we are beginning to strike a UK consensus about the need to tackle | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
this. We have a chance to continue to move forward. It is an appetite, | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
I know, to return to these hssues. The dizzy deal desire for the | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
government to continue to rdad internationally on avoidancd and | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
evasion and the House can bd reassured that is exactly what we | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
intend to do. Does the honotrable gentleman the member for Kirkcaldy | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
and Cowdenbeath wish to respond The few words just do say I am | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
incredibly disappointed that the government has chosen to dr`g its | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
feet on the issue of Scottish limited partnerships and on the | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
basis of their own arguments we will be moving new clause seven. That is | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
commendably petty. I think the houses almost audibly grateful. -- | :33:20. | :33:29. | |
pithy. The question is that new clause seven B read a second time. | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
Division, cleared the lobby. Order. The question is that new | :33:43. | :36:01. | |
clause seven be read a second time. As many as are of the opinion, say | :36:02. | :36:11. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". . Killers 's body knows Mr Gr`ham | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
Stewart and Mr Mark Spencer. -- cameras for the noes. | :36:18. | :47:11. | |
Order, order. The Ayes to the right, 248, the Noes to the left, 304. | :47:12. | :47:35. | |
The Ayes to the right, 248, the Noes to the left, 304. Nose macro, nose | :47:36. | :47:48. | |
macro, unlocked. We now comd to new clause 13 in the name of thd | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
honourable lady who will move formally, I believe, the qudstion is | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
that new clause 13 B read a second time. As many as are of that opinion | :48:01. | :48:08. | |
say aye, contrary no division, clear the lobby. | :48:09. | :50:44. | |
Order. The question is that new clause 13 B read a second thme. As | :50:45. | :50:51. | |
many as are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. Tellers for thd Ayes, | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
Sue Heymann and Jeff Smith. Tellers for the Noes, very disorderly | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
conduct, tellers for the Nods, Mr Graham Stuart and Mr Mark Spencer. | :51:05. | :51:10. |