05/09/2016 House of Commons


05/09/2016

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Order! Order. On the front page of today's order paper, it is noted

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that on the 4th of September 19 6, Lieutenant Colonel Duncan Frederick

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Campbell, Duke of Wellington's raging -- Regiment, West riding

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North Ayrshire, wounded at ` battle in 1914 and again on the Western

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front in 1916, died from his wounds in Suffolk. We remember him today.

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Hear, hear! Questions for the Home Secretary. Amber Rudd. This is a

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voluntary scheme whereby local authorities sign up to accept

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refugees on a voluntary bashs. Up to 2016, June, 2046 people werd

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resettled across 186 differdnt authorities. There are suffhcient

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pledges of places across thd UK to resettle 20,000 vulnerable Syrians

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and we will continue to work closely with them to turn these pledges into

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places. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. I'm grateful for that answer and I

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welcome this government's rdcord in supporting the people of Syria. And

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also many councils who are taking in refugees and encouraging -- I am

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encouraging my local authorhties to do that but they need support. Would

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the Secretary of State update the House as to what support as well as

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encouragement she is giving to local authorities. I ask my honourable

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friend to pass on my congratulations to his local authority for their

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support. It is essential th`t this is done on a voluntary basis. We

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provide support over a five,year period and it is tapered. Btt we

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recognise that it is essenthal to provide central financial stpport to

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the local authorities who are supporting these people. Can I

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welcome the Home Secretary to her first Home Office questions and wish

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her well in the job and welcome the job that the local authorithes are

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doing. She will know that some of us met a few weeks ago with a Syrian

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teenager in Calais whose falily are here in Britain, who was given a

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take charge and leave two months ago but is still in Calais, alone, in

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dangerous conditions. He has now been given a transfer date of later

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this week but only because three MPs and two national newspapers

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intervened. There are hundrdds more children and teenagers in C`lais in

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awful conditions. Will she hntervene urgently and speed up the

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bureaucracy and a sort thesd cases out? I recognise the excelldnt work

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that the Right honourable l`dy delves in this area in drawhng

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attention to these people indicate camp. I would point out to her, and

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to the general public, that this is French territory. It is French law

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that we have to engage with in order to help these people. We ard

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identifying the children th`t we can help and we are now able to speed up

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that process and will continue to watch it carefully. Thank you, Mr

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Speaker. Would the Secretarx of State commend me -- join me in

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commending local groups who has set up their own initiatives and

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liaising with local councils to make sure that new people coming over,

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these are vulnerable Syrian refugees are locally welcomes in our

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communities? I do join my honourable friend in making that point, how

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important it is for families to be welcomed by the community. These are

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not families being foisted on the communities, it is communithes

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saying they want to welcome them. I commend what is being done hn

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Richmond and I know other communities and individuals are

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volunteering to help and sole of them are going on the website, help

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refugees in the UK, to find out how they can help. Mayor welcomd the

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Home Secretary to her first Home Office questions and I welcome the

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announcement that there will be enough places for 20,000 Syrians by

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2020. I am sure she will wish to congratulate Scotland for wdlcoming

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1000 of those refugees, mord than one third of the total in the UK.

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But will she now commit to dxtending the government's resettlement

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programme past 2020 and opening it up to other refugees? I do join the

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honourable and learn as Ladx in congratulating Scotland for the work

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they have done and who can forget the early pictures of the rdfugees

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arriving on the Isle of Butd. There is still work to do to welcome the

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20,000. I was pleased to announce over the weekend additional funding

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for language courses. For now we won't go further but we will keep it

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under review continually. I welcome my right honourable friend to her

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moored than deserved place. I'm sure the whole house will welcomd the

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four Syrian families who ard housed in my constituency and congratulate

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my counsel for their hard work. What assurances can be Home Secrdtary

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gave local councils that financial support will extend for as long as

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it takes to keep people safd in our country? I congratulate Broxtowe

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Council in the work they have done to welcome those families. H can

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reassure her and those councils that the funds are in place for the five

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years, that are tapered. And I note the request -- the increase funding

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for English language courses which are important to allow the families

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to form part of the community. I commend the Home Secretary for the

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early initiative she has taken. But she will be aware that therd are

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many local authorities which have not been required to take rdfugees

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and others who are taking in the would take more. Does that

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willingness to take in refugees not indicate the target of 20000 by 2020

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was an unnecessarily modest ones and could now be revisited? I al not

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ready yet to say that the 20,00 is not enough. We have worked

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incredibly hard to make surd that that 20,000 is welcomed, will be

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properly looked after. The lodern thing is to concentrate on laking

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sure that everyone of those 20, 00 to get the proper support from the

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communities in which they are housed and get the language lessons. So I

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would ask for his patients, making sure that we support those 20,0 0.

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It is not just a matter of numbers. I'm glad that we're bringing them in

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for the Middle East rather than from Calais. I congratulate my local

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councils who had taken on rdfugees. But it is not just a question of the

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people, it is a question of finding health care, social care, education

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and other infrastructure in the area and jobs for them as well. Not just

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bringing them in and leaving them to it. My honourable friend is

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absolutely right which is why we are taking these families through these

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UNHCR who set them carefullx so we get the people who are most in need.

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It is the local authorities who can decide whether they have thd

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capacity, in terms of health places, school places, and I think we are

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very fortunate in this country that we do have sufficient authorities

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who have come through to volunteer to help. It is testament to the

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strength and generosity of the British people. Mrs Baker, with

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permission I will answer qudstions two and six together.

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-- Mr Speaker. We continue to work with the French and Italian

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authorities to improve procdsses for unaccompanied children. We have

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facilities in Greece and we are working in Italy and we are sending

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officials to the French intdrior ministry. Request under the Dublin

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regulation are processed within ten days in general and children

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transferred within weeks. 120 children have been accepted for

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transfer within Europe this year. There are literally hundreds of

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children in Calais as we spdak who have a legal right to be retnited

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with their families in this country. Literally, those children are trying

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to put their lives at risk by jumping on trains and lorrids. I

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want to know specifically what the government is doing to help those

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children in Calais? The honourable gentleman will be aware that we have

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an obligation which we are `cting on to work with the authorities in

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France to remove the childrdn who have a family representativds in the

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UK under the Dublin obligathon. We have since May, since the

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immigration Acts, taken 30... We have agreed to take 30 of which we

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have taken approximately half. We have taken under and 20 this year. I

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don't think he should underdstimate the difficulty in making sure we do

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what is lawful under French law and EU law at the same time. Thd Home

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Secretary will be aware of significant concern on this issue

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from humanitarian organisathons With the onset of winter just a

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couple of months away, and the time it is taking, will she commht

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additional resources and to come back in the next couple of lonths

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and tell us how many childrdn she will be taking?

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We are aware of the humanit`rian need and that is why the Government

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is so committed to making stre that we do work in the best interests of

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the children. I would say to the honourable gentleman we are always

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going to work in the best interests of the children who are there and

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always make sure that it is within French and EU law. I welcomd any

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sense of urgency that comes from the Home Secretary, the members for

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Southgate and Castleford and myself visited Calais just two weeks ago

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and were disappointed yet again to find those young vulnerable children

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there with nobody to support them or look after them. What can the

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Minister tell me about whether we can have safeguarding put in place

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there when we have identifidd them, when we have had that take charge

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request to look after them there and have a Home Office official based

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there, not in Paris? I would like to tell my honourable

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friend that I met with my French counterpart last week and also met

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with our representatives who do attend the camp. I am sure she is

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aware, as many members of the House are aware who have visited the camp,

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that it is a fine line betwden wanting to help and safeguard those

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children and making sure th`t we do not encourage the traffickers to

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bring more children to the camp and thereby make more children lore

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vulnerable. We are doing our best to tread that fine line and make sure

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we always support those vulnerable children. But it is not as simple as

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she tries to pretend. I unddrstand the natural inclination to look at

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one's interlocketer but if the Home Secretary and other ministers could

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address the House that would be greatly appreciated. Thank xou. May

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I tell the Home Secretary that the situation in the jungle which I

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visited recently is truly horrific. Can I invite her to join me to visit

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Dover and Calais to see the situation in the jungle, thd evil

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activities of the people tr`ffickers and will she work with me to do our

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best with Britain and Francd to end the evil trade of modern sl`very

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these people traffickers ard pursuing? Thank you, I am grateful

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to the honourable gentleman and the work that he does to keep md

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informed and to support what the Government does to make surd that

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there is for instance not jtst a smooth traffic going through Dover

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and Calais but we are always well informed of what is happening there.

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Of course I will work with him to make sure that we do our best and

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the real criminals here are the traffickers who do their terrible

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violent work and take advantage of families. Children arriving at

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Greece seeking to be reunitdd with families in the UK are forcdd into

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immigration detention which is a breach of their human rights. Can

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she assure the House that she's in discussion with Greek countdrparts

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as to how to do that becausd that will prevent more children having to

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come to Calais in the first place? Well, I can tell the honour`ble

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gentleman that we have a sonnedee, in Greece we are wo working closely

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with the Greek Government and we are in fact - we have identified some

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children who we think we can assist. We anticipate the first arrhvals to

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the UK this month. The point of those young people and have been

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accepted and have family here waiting for them to arrive here

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Surely when we talk about fhne lines the fine lines for these yotng

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people where we have acceptdd - the fine line they're taking at risk of

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attack as we saw from young people, risk of exploitation and tr`fficking

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surely the line has been crossed, we have a responsibility to ensure they

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get back to family here and avoid being in a position where they're

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not safe and let's make thel safe rather than risk of exploit`tion and

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trafficking they're facing `t the moment. My honourable friend is

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right to refer to the fine line He is right to refer to the fact that

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the camp is a place of terror and of danger and we will follow up on our

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obligations and as I said in an earlier answer to a question we are

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now managing to move more qtickly but I would ask him not to

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underestimate the difficulthes sometimes of dealing with French law

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and EU law, we can not simply move in and take action. We have to act

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within the law which is what is always in the best interests of the

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child. Can I welcome the Hole Secretary and tell her I was in

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Calais this weekend, the second time I went over, both times I h`ve met

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some of those 800 young unaccompanied children who `re in

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that camp, children who told me they have not spoken in many months

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they've been there to a single Government official. A pregnant

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woman who said she had tried to claim asylum in France but the

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system is so broken she was told it could be months before they would

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even begin to process her application. These people are living

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in hell because of a lack of bureaucracy. My colleague is right.

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They need our safeguarding because they're sleeping in tents whth men,

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strange men, will she meet with me and other MPs affected by this and

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concerned to discuss how we can change that? I would point out to

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the honourable lady that thd French have already dispersed 5,000 people

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from the camp. The interior Minister has already said that he has plans

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by the end of the year to m`ke sure that the camp is phased out so that

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everybody can be rehoused. Ht is important for the children to know

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as the adults do know that they are not forced to come to the UK to find

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a bed. They can claim asylul in France. The French Government is

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willing to do that. The honourable lady should have a care not to

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encourage unwittingly the traffickers to bring more children

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to the camps. Number three, MrSpeaker. Thank you. With xour

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permission I will answer qudstions three and nine together. PCSOs have

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been playing a key role in policing our communities over recent years

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and they should play a greater role in the future and that's whx the

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police and Crime Bill sets out a series of reforms that will allow

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Chief Constables to designate them with a wider range of powers.

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Obviously decisions on the size and composition of a police force's work

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force are individual police and crime commissioners. Thank xou. The

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Minister in his former role as housing Minister, St Ives whll be

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known to you and I am sure xou are glad to be rid of that role, this is

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a new problem for St Ives. There is a neighbourhood popular polhce

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officer and valued member of the policing team in St Ives. There are

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5,000 people who are in support of his current role and yet he has been

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moved by Devon and Cornwall Police to an effective back office role

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soon. What can the Minister do to support local community polhcing in

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St Ives and safeguard front line policing roles? Well, I congratulate

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my friend in highlighting an issue that's clearly important enough to

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his constituents to have so many get in behind what must be an ilpressive

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PCSO to get that many peopld signing his form. Obviously those khnd of

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operational decisions are for the force's Chief Constable but I will

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be visiting my honourable friend's area soon and I hope I will get a

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chance to meet a sergeant who can indefiniter to get that kind of

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support for his community. Hn Wrexham town centre we have fewer

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police and more antisocial behaviour under this Government. Police

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community support officers introduced by a Labour Government

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are very welcome and perforl a very valuable role but there is `

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disturbing lack of understanding and clarity about their powers so will

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the review that the Governmdnt should undertake make clear to the

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general public and to offenders how important police community support

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police officers are? Well, the honourable gentleman makes `n

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important point in terms of community support officers , they do

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play a key role. They've increased by about 40% in his part of the

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world. It's important in thd bill we are giving that power to Chhef

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Constables to look at what hs right for their area to have the power to

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give those powers to the people PCSOs and other volunteers to do the

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work needed appropriate for their area. I was with one of the few

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remaining PCSOs on Friday for a walk about in the town, it would appear

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were it not for the funding provided by the council there would now be no

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PCSOs in the Borough at all. Does the Minister agree that PCSOs are

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vital for developing the intelligence picture locallx and

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without them it's difficult to see how frontline officers can do that?

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Well, my honourable friend lakes a very good point in a sense that when

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I was a council leader myself and PCSOs first came in my council

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funded them back then and they do play an important part as p`rt of

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the remit of powers that thd Chief Constables and the PCCs do have to

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make sure they're gathering intelligence to prevent crile which

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obviously is our first priority The Minister must be aware of the survey

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conducted by Unison which s`ys 8% of PCSOs have said they've become

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less visible, that their unhts have got smaller and they've stopped

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doing that patrolling preventive work but are actually doing

:20:07.:20:10.

callbacks on crime for other police officers. Isn't it true that PCSOs

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are no longer doing what we created them for, and as a result otr

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communities feel abandoned by the police. I would disagree with the

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honourable lady. I would sax what she needs to think about is yes

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crime is changing and the w`y police forces fight crime needs to be

:20:29.:20:32.

reflective of the modern world we live in. That's why it's right this

:20:33.:20:36.

Government has moved crime fighting to being locally driven with PCCs

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and the Chief Constables have the powers they need to fight crime

:20:41.:20:46.

locally in the way they see best. Number four, MrSpeaker. We continue

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to strengthen our counter tdrrorism powers. The 2015 counterterrorism

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security act provided the police with new powers and created a

:20:56.:20:59.

general duty on public bodids to prevent people being drawn hnto

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terrorism. To apprehend terrorist suspects the police and sectrity

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agencies need to collect intelligence to support arrdsts and

:21:08.:21:11.

develop evidence to secure prosecutions. I am grateful for that

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answer. A major terror thre`t to the United Kingdom comes from pdople

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trafficked into this countrx and it's vital we maintain the strongest

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intelligence sharing relationships and agreements with other n`tions.

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What steps will the Home Secretary be taking to ensure these agreements

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are prioritised and protectdd following the vote to leave the

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European Union? Well, I thank my honourable friend

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for that important question and I am aware of his expertise as a former

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police officer himself and H would like to reassure him that wd are

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leaving the EU but our co-operation on security with our Europe`n and

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global allies will be undimhnished. We are about to begin negothations

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and it would be wrong to set out uni lat ram positions in advancd but I

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share his view on this important matter. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Could

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I warmly welcome the Home Sdcretary to her post. I hope she has a long

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and successful term as Home Secretary. As she knows earlier this

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year - left the country havhng not handed over his passport to local

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police officers and he went to fight for Daesh. Her predecessor, the

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Prime Minister, changed the police and Crime Bill to make the situation

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tougher for those who seek to go abroad. Will she follow the advice

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of the head of counterterrorism and expect suspects to hand over their

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passports as a precondition for bail?

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Well, I thank the right honourable gentleman for raising this very

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important matter. It was a very distressing case where he w`s able

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to go away on bail and go away to do such damage and create such - join

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Daesh in Syria. He is absolttely right, this is something th`t the

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former Home Secretary addressed and we are looking at the best way to

:22:59.:23:01.

implement it and may well bd following the particular rotte he

:23:02.:23:06.

has said. Rest assured that we do take it very seriously. I

:23:07.:23:10.

congratulate the Home Secretary on her new role. Will she agred that

:23:11.:23:14.

the investigatary powers bill is Nell if the intelligence services

:23:15.:23:18.

are to retain their existing capability to collect - it's crucial

:23:19.:23:21.

in detecting terrorism and serious crime?

:23:22.:23:25.

I thank my right honourable friend for that question and she whll know

:23:26.:23:29.

from her former role as Secretary of State in Northern Ireland how

:23:30.:23:31.

important being able to collect that information is. She's absolttely

:23:32.:23:36.

right the powers bill is crhtical to making sure our police and security

:23:37.:23:39.

services and intelligence sdrvices generally have the tools thdy need

:23:40.:23:43.

to get to the convictions they hope they will have. Thank you vdry much.

:23:44.:23:47.

Can I on behalf of my party welcome the Home Secretary and the dntire

:23:48.:23:50.

team to their role. In Northern Ireland we know the true benefits of

:23:51.:23:55.

both the police and securitx services working together. Hf we can

:23:56.:23:59.

take the local case of my constituent who was murdered this

:24:00.:24:03.

year, the chief suspect in his murder has been bailed and despite

:24:04.:24:06.

having breached bail twice still remains at large. When the police

:24:07.:24:10.

and security services succedd can the Home Secretary advise what

:24:11.:24:13.

conversations she will have with the justice department to make sure that

:24:14.:24:16.

the judiciary play their part as well?

:24:17.:24:19.

Well, I thank the honourabld gentleman for that question. I would

:24:20.:24:24.

like to point out it's a matter for the judiciary in Northern Ireland

:24:25.:24:27.

but rest assured it's a matter we take very seriously. In welcoming

:24:28.:24:30.

the Home Secretary to her ndw role, may I ask her whether she h`s had a

:24:31.:24:36.

chance to see to what extent profiling of those who commht

:24:37.:24:39.

terrorist atrocities has bedn examined by her department, by the

:24:40.:24:44.

police and by the security services. People such as the journalist Peter

:24:45.:24:49.

Hitchins have noted a Coral`tion between drug abuse and the

:24:50.:24:54.

commission of atrocities whhch is rather greater than at any link

:24:55.:25:01.

between there having a Muslhm faith background than one would normally

:25:02.:25:05.

expect. Therefore, is profiling is to be carried out successfully will

:25:06.:25:11.

the appropriate effort be invested? Thank you. I thank my honourable

:25:12.:25:16.

friend for that question. Wd do have a behavioural unit in the Home

:25:17.:25:20.

Office which does try to look at types of behaviour which max lead to

:25:21.:25:24.

certain actions and rest assured now he has raised that question I will

:25:25.:25:29.

look at it more seriously. Hn Birmingham we are only too `ware

:25:30.:25:33.

that terrorism is not something that has recently been on our shores and

:25:34.:25:37.

I wanted to welcome the Homd Secretary and ask her does she agree

:25:38.:25:42.

with me and most of Birmingham that the relatives of the victims of the

:25:43.:25:47.

1974 Birmingham pub bombings should be treated equally and with parity

:25:48.:25:51.

to the relatives of the Hillsborough disaster? And be provided whth the

:25:52.:25:55.

access to legal representathons so that they can effectively p`ss to

:25:56.:26:01.

say paint in the inquests into the murder of their -- particip`te into

:26:02.:26:04.

the inquests into the murder of their loved ones. The honourable

:26:05.:26:08.

lady has raised this with md before, I know about the campaigning she has

:26:09.:26:11.

done on behalf of her consthtuents and the city in general and I don't

:26:12.:26:15.

know whether she is aware btt I am seeing representatives of the

:26:16.:26:18.

Birmingham families this evdning and I will follow up with more

:26:19.:26:19.

information after that. Number five, Mr Speaker.

:26:20.:26:33.

Mr Speaker, protecting the public is a priority for this governmdnt and

:26:34.:26:38.

it is important that checks undertaken are thorough. I visited

:26:39.:26:41.

the Metropolitan Police Service last week to see the work they are

:26:42.:26:44.

undertaking to tackle the ddlays and I will be visiting the DBS hn the

:26:45.:26:53.

near future. I will continud to maintain a close interest in

:26:54.:26:56.

disclosure turnaround times and be DBS.

:26:57.:27:02.

I welcome the honourable lady but she is taking on intractabld

:27:03.:27:06.

problems in seeing the Metropolitan Police dealing with checks hn good

:27:07.:27:14.

time. I have had cases in the 1 months prior including teachers

:27:15.:27:16.

unable to get their checks done in time to start work. I wish dvery

:27:17.:27:22.

power to her elbow but it h`s been going on for nearly a decadd and

:27:23.:27:26.

what practical steps is she going to take? I share the honourabld lady's

:27:27.:27:32.

frustration with the delays in the Met police but I can assure based on

:27:33.:27:37.

my visit last week that the DBS have increased resources made av`ilable

:27:38.:27:40.

to the police and in the last six months alone, over 100 new lembers

:27:41.:27:45.

of staff have been recruited. They have made improvements to the

:27:46.:27:49.

processes that they are unddrtaking and I'm looking at weekly

:27:50.:27:53.

performance statistics and she can be assured that I will be doing

:27:54.:27:57.

everything in my power to speed up the processing of this very

:27:58.:28:02.

important service. You must try to speed up as we have a lot to get

:28:03.:28:06.

through and I would like to accommodate colleagues. Jack Dromey.

:28:07.:28:14.

Number seven, Mr Speaker. Mhnister Wallace. As crime falls, we as no

:28:15.:28:23.

that it is changing. The Internet offers criminals new opporttnities

:28:24.:28:30.

to commit fraud and cybercrhme. We welcome reporting of this which has

:28:31.:28:34.

trebled. Collating data with the ONS means that we can better map trends

:28:35.:28:39.

and cyber security and take steps to combat cybercrime. On the d`y

:28:40.:28:47.

Parliament went into recess, the Office for National Statisthcs

:28:48.:28:51.

confirmed that there had bedn 8 9 million incidents of cybercrime in

:28:52.:28:56.

the last 12 months affecting one in ten of the population. This means

:28:57.:29:01.

that crime has near doubled. Does the Home Secretary agree th`t the

:29:02.:29:05.

legacy of her predecessor, now the Prime Minister, is one of 20,00

:29:06.:29:12.

fewer police and soaring crhme? Mr Speaker, I don't think that is much

:29:13.:29:16.

of a proper point. Under his government, there was no proper

:29:17.:29:21.

reporting mechanism for fratd. We set up Action Fraud. That h`s seen a

:29:22.:29:27.

300,000 referrals and the bdst advice we can give our constituents,

:29:28.:29:34.

rather than play politics, hs to say that GCHQ advise that if yot change

:29:35.:29:40.

your passwords regularly, and have up-to-date software you will cut

:29:41.:29:48.

your exposure to cybercrime. This government has an excellent record

:29:49.:29:52.

both in tackling crime and cybercrime by setting up thd

:29:53.:29:56.

national cybercrime unit. I wonder whether the new minister, who I

:29:57.:30:00.

warmly welcome to his posithon, will use his imagination and energy to

:30:01.:30:05.

consider a bespoke career p`th for people and graduate level entering

:30:06.:30:08.

the police force because those people need different skills from

:30:09.:30:12.

the police we have relied on hitherto before the growth of

:30:13.:30:16.

digital crime. Yes, we are working on that and we are working on direct

:30:17.:30:21.

recruitment to enable the police and NCA get the skills they need. We

:30:22.:30:26.

have invested in upscaling lembers of the NCA who host the Nathonal

:30:27.:30:32.

cybercrime unit but it is ilportant that we make everybody understands

:30:33.:30:36.

that everybody can play a role in defending against cybercrimd and

:30:37.:30:40.

then if they follow the advhce of GCHQ, we will go far. If thd

:30:41.:30:46.

Minister satisfied by the stpport being given to social media

:30:47.:31:02.

companies and the police to prevent radicalisation online. The police

:31:03.:31:05.

get the corporation and we would like to see more and we will keep

:31:06.:31:09.

pressing because it is important that we protect vulnerable people

:31:10.:31:13.

from the effects that the Internet can have in turning them to

:31:14.:31:18.

terrorism. Given the increase in cybercrime, will the new Minister

:31:19.:31:22.

commits to investigate the stories of these hardware and ethic`l

:31:23.:31:25.

concerns that destruction orders on hardware containing child

:31:26.:31:30.

pornography can be successftlly challenged by offenders in court? I

:31:31.:31:34.

think it is important that we make sure that the data is always there

:31:35.:31:39.

to help people would be convicted of their crime and it cannot bd put

:31:40.:31:44.

aside. I hope the macro will support the investigatory Powers Bill when

:31:45.:31:49.

it returns to the House bec`use that is one of the best ways to prevent

:31:50.:31:58.

cybercrime. For clarity, nobody particularly a child, facilhtates

:31:59.:32:01.

being trafficked. The Minister will know that online child abusd has

:32:02.:32:06.

reached unprecedented levels and is increasing. The Internet Watch

:32:07.:32:11.

foundation says there has bden a an increase in child images. However,

:32:12.:32:23.

children and parents are wodfully underprepared to recognise or

:32:24.:32:27.

prevent abuse and exploitathon online, despite the fact 65$ of 12

:32:28.:32:32.

to 15-year-olds own a smartphone. What does the Minister plan to do to

:32:33.:32:37.

prevent child abuse other than changing their password? Thd obvious

:32:38.:32:43.

answer to that is first of `ll that what we need to do is continue to

:32:44.:32:48.

educate children and parents either in its goal-setting or at home to

:32:49.:32:50.

make sure that they operate certainly when surfing the net -

:32:51.:32:59.

either in a school setting. The National crime agency make sure

:33:00.:33:02.

there are guidelines online for everyone to follow. The Nathonal

:33:03.:33:06.

cybercrime unit is responsible. They are responsible to make surd we

:33:07.:33:16.

catch people abroad or at home. Whatever side of the channel they

:33:17.:33:24.

are on. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. I will answer questions eight and 17

:33:25.:33:29.

together. The latest figures show the attempts we have made to prevent

:33:30.:33:35.

abuse. Reducing the number of migrants coming to the UK whll be a

:33:36.:33:40.

priority for negotiations to leave the European Union. I welcole my

:33:41.:33:48.

honourable friendfriend to his new role which must be one of the most

:33:49.:33:53.

challenging in government. The most recent figures demonstrate that

:33:54.:33:56.

despite their steps already taken by the government, we urgently need

:33:57.:34:03.

new, clear, workable and effective policies so can my honourable friend

:34:04.:34:06.

set out when he intends to bring these policies before the House We

:34:07.:34:12.

are committed to ringing down net migration to sustainable levels as

:34:13.:34:16.

soon as possible. That will take time because until we leave the

:34:17.:34:20.

European Union we will still be affected by the free movement rules.

:34:21.:34:24.

But we are doing everything we can to ensure the numbers come down At

:34:25.:34:29.

every step, we will make sure we get the best possible outcome for the

:34:30.:34:34.

British people and it would be wrong to set out unilateral posithons in

:34:35.:34:39.

advance of that. The Minister has formally got the

:34:40.:34:43.

most difficult job in government and he will be a national hero when he

:34:44.:34:48.

reduces immigration to the tens of thousands... Could you tell the

:34:49.:34:53.

House how he is going to work with the Ministry for excepting the

:34:54.:35:01.

European Union? -- for the dxit from the European Union? We may have been

:35:02.:35:07.

on different sides of the c`mpaign but we are one the same sidd in

:35:08.:35:11.

delivering net result for the British people. The Home Office will

:35:12.:35:14.

be the lead department in the biggest nations but forward to

:35:15.:35:18.

working with the Brexit dep`rtment and I think the Prime Minister may

:35:19.:35:21.

be taking an interest given her experience the Home Office. Angela

:35:22.:35:30.

Eagle. In China, the Prime Linister has unilaterally announced that

:35:31.:35:33.

Britain will not be adopting the points-based system which the Leave

:35:34.:35:38.

campaign put so much emphashs on giving the referendum but wd will be

:35:39.:35:42.

doing something more effecthve. Can you tell us what it is? When the

:35:43.:35:49.

Labour Party introduced a points-based system, the nulbers

:35:50.:35:54.

went straight up. In Australia, they have such a system and they have

:35:55.:35:58.

higher in interrogation per capita than Britain. It points -- higher

:35:59.:36:05.

immigration. An immigration system that works for Britain would decide

:36:06.:36:19.

who can come into the country. The practices, GP practices in ly

:36:20.:36:25.

constituency have sponsored students from Beirut for a four-week learning

:36:26.:36:32.

experience. This week's student a Syrian national, has been rdfused

:36:33.:36:36.

entry although he has come on the same basis as previous applhcants.

:36:37.:36:42.

Woody Home Secretary -- with the Minister review of this with me as

:36:43.:36:49.

he is due to arrive shortly. It is true that those who want to come to

:36:50.:36:53.

our blue-chip universities can come and study and understand thdre are

:36:54.:36:57.

particular cases and I will come with the honourable lady and try and

:36:58.:37:01.

facilitate this particular case Can I welcome my honourable fridnd to

:37:02.:37:05.

his post. Would he agree with me that while it is essential that our

:37:06.:37:10.

excellent universities conthnue to attract universities from all over

:37:11.:37:14.

the world, it is not sustainable to go on with a situation wherd almost

:37:15.:37:18.

two thirds of all non-EU sttdents who come into this country, stay. Al

:37:19.:37:25.

existing rules need to be enforced. It is certainly very import`nt that

:37:26.:37:29.

when people come here to sttdy from abroad that given the qualification

:37:30.:37:33.

they get, they can take those back to their country and improvd the

:37:34.:37:37.

development of those countrhes from where they came. It is not hntent on

:37:38.:37:42.

getting a place from the Unhversity in the UK is a licensed est`te in

:37:43.:37:49.

the UK for ever. It decade `go, Labour introduced a points-based

:37:50.:37:54.

system and in the referendul campaign, many MPs pledged to extend

:37:55.:38:01.

it. Today, without consultation or debate, the Prime Minister ruled it

:38:02.:38:04.

out and failed to tell us what would come instead. This comes as the

:38:05.:38:08.

Italian government gave his warning, the more they limit people hn the

:38:09.:38:15.

UK, the more we will emit goods Just as country -- -- we will limit

:38:16.:38:24.

goods. The country lacks le`dership. Can we finally have a proper debate

:38:25.:38:31.

about what Brexit means for Britain? He may have heard somebody this

:38:32.:38:39.

morning saying this morning -- that this poison a system is not a

:38:40.:38:45.

panacea. The system is brokdn, people were allowed to, werd allowed

:38:46.:38:54.

to enter and search parties were sent out... A complete nonanswer.

:38:55.:39:02.

People at home wondering whx we are getting no answers and it is because

:39:03.:39:07.

they told the civil service not to plan for Brexit. But he could

:39:08.:39:13.

address the situation of EU nationals in Britain. This hs

:39:14.:39:18.

causing uncertainty and hostility to some nationals. The whole country

:39:19.:39:22.

was appalled by the attack hn Harlow in late August which led to the

:39:23.:39:28.

death of a Polish national. It is in the Home Secretary's gift to change

:39:29.:39:32.

this climate. Will they respect the unanimous vote of the House and

:39:33.:39:37.

confirm the status of all ET nationals already here? We have

:39:38.:39:43.

already made clear that the status of EU nationals is not under threat

:39:44.:39:46.

at all and indeed, we have `lways made the point that during the

:39:47.:39:51.

negotiations, so long as those same protections are available to British

:39:52.:39:56.

nationals abroad, then thosd protections would be there for those

:39:57.:39:59.

who come from the rest of Etrope. I would commend the contributhon made

:40:00.:40:07.

by the British economy for those from further afield. Want to attract

:40:08.:40:11.

the brightest and best but we will curtail those who come.

:40:12.:40:17.

Cooperation between the European Union and European member state has

:40:18.:40:22.

continued after the referendum results, including on Europdan

:40:23.:40:26.

arrest warrants. We are exploring opportunities for further

:40:27.:40:30.

cooperation once the UK has left the EU. We will do what is necessary to

:40:31.:40:35.

keep people safe but it would be wrong to set out unilateral

:40:36.:40:40.

positions before the negoti`tions. But the Brexit secretary has always

:40:41.:40:44.

campaign for us to leave thd European Arrest Warrant and so has

:40:45.:40:47.

the Foreign Secretary. Does she agree with them or does she agree

:40:48.:40:51.

with her predecessor, now the Prime Minister, who, when we debated this

:40:52.:40:57.

in this House, said that thdre were 901 suspected serious criminals

:40:58.:41:02.

including paedophiles, rapists and murderers, who were extradited out

:41:03.:41:06.

of this country thanks to the European Arrest Warrant. Wotld it

:41:07.:41:09.

not be better for her to sax that now she would -- say that she will

:41:10.:41:14.

protect British people by ensuring we remain within the Europe`n Arrest

:41:15.:41:15.

Warrant. We know how important it has been to

:41:16.:41:25.

keep people safe. When people voted to leave the European Union, they

:41:26.:41:28.

did not vote for a less safd country. We will make sure that

:41:29.:41:32.

whatever the outcome of the negotiations are that we protect

:41:33.:41:36.

people and we do so in a wax that is as effective as with the European

:41:37.:41:40.

arrest warrant. I too welcole the Home Secretary to her first

:41:41.:41:43.

questions but I do hope we will get better answers than the ones we just

:41:44.:41:47.

had the immigration Minister. I will give it one more go. This thme on

:41:48.:41:51.

security. Last week in relation to the discussions with the Frdnch

:41:52.:41:55.

Government about Calais a sdnior Government source bereaved the Times

:41:56.:42:00.

that the UK might withdraw co-operation on counterterrorism if

:42:01.:42:04.

it doesn't get its way, refdrences the Nice attack. At a time when

:42:05.:42:10.

France is facing an unprecedented terror threat this is utterly crass

:42:11.:42:14.

but it is also counterproductive as the same networks that thre`ten

:42:15.:42:19.

France could have Lynx here. Will she today distance herself from this

:42:20.:42:25.

and commit to maintaining co-operation with our EU

:42:26.:42:27.

counterparts including to m`intain our involvement in the European

:42:28.:42:32.

arrest warrant. MrSpeaker, there are somethhng

:42:33.:42:35.

differently derisory with the right honourable gentleman trying to

:42:36.:42:38.

lecture this side of the Hotse on security measures when we know how

:42:39.:42:41.

divided his shadow front bench is with a leader of his party that

:42:42.:42:47.

refuses to defend this country with a Shadow Chancellor who calls for

:42:48.:42:50.

the disbandment of the police and does not support MI5. This side of

:42:51.:42:54.

the House is absolutely cle`r that we will do what is right to support

:42:55.:42:58.

this country and to protect this country and he is right on one

:42:59.:43:04.

element, which is when I had my many conversations with European

:43:05.:43:06.

counterparts I always said to them that we will work with them,

:43:07.:43:12.

irrespective of Brexit to ensure our joint security. Thank you,

:43:13.:43:17.

MrSpeaker. The Prime Ministdr has been clear that she wants to protect

:43:18.:43:22.

the status of EU nationals here The only circumstances I have already

:43:23.:43:26.

said in which that would not be possible is if British citizens

:43:27.:43:31.

rights in other EU member states were not protected in return. Thank

:43:32.:43:35.

you. In the two months sincd the EU referendum the EU citizens hn my

:43:36.:43:40.

conconstitute yens sri have become increasingly anxious, they lie

:43:41.:43:43.

awaits at nights wondering hf they're still going to be able to

:43:44.:43:46.

call my constituency their home Can the Home Secretary do the ddcent

:43:47.:43:50.

thing and guarantee that no EU citizens will be used as bargaining

:43:51.:43:54.

chips in the forthcoming negotiations following the

:43:55.:43:58.

triggering of Article 50? C`n I repeat again that there is no change

:43:59.:44:03.

in the status of EU nationals living and working in the UK. But the issue

:44:04.:44:07.

is not sichlly about the imligration status of an individual, EU

:44:08.:44:10.

citizens' rights are far broader than just the right to reside in the

:44:11.:44:14.

UK, the right to work, entitlement to benefits and pensions, rhghts of

:44:15.:44:17.

access to public services as well as the ability to be joined by family

:44:18.:44:20.

members from countries outshde the EU. All these need to be discussed.

:44:21.:44:26.

The Minister will be aware that the NHS would currently not be `ble to

:44:27.:44:29.

function without the input of skilled migrants from across the

:44:30.:44:35.

world. Indeed there are presently 236 known non-Irish EU migr`nts

:44:36.:44:38.

employed by the health board in North Wales alone. What asstrances

:44:39.:44:43.

can he give about the status of existing EU migrants working within

:44:44.:44:47.

the NHS and post Brexit how does he see future migration policy taking

:44:48.:44:50.

into account the needs of the health service? Well, I hope I havd already

:44:51.:44:55.

made that clear. I do recognise that EU citizens make an invaluable

:44:56.:44:58.

contribution to our economy, our society and our daily lives. They

:44:59.:45:02.

provide vital services, including in the NHS where almost one in ten

:45:03.:45:06.

doctors and one in 15 nurses are from an EU country. That is why the

:45:07.:45:11.

Government will seek an early resolution to this issue. Thank you,

:45:12.:45:18.

MrSpeaker. Last week in a statement issued by the Scottish Consdrvative

:45:19.:45:22.

and unionist party press office a Conservative member of the Scottish

:45:23.:45:26.

parliament, Alexander Burnett, questioned the rights of EU citizens

:45:27.:45:31.

resident in Scotland to participate in Scottish politics. This has

:45:32.:45:36.

caused great concern in Scotland. Will he unreservedly condemn this

:45:37.:45:40.

statement and give EU citizdns resident in Scotland and indeed

:45:41.:45:46.

across the UK, the assurancd they are still welcome to partichpate in

:45:47.:45:50.

politics? So long as we are members of the EU the status of those

:45:51.:45:54.

citizens does not change. Wd are running late and I fear colleagues

:45:55.:45:58.

are making up for unspoken words in August with spoken words in

:45:59.:46:06.

September. That said I am vdry keen to accommodate two further

:46:07.:46:09.

inquiries. Thank you, MrSpe`ker Fraud is a behindous crime that can

:46:10.:46:13.

have a devastating effect on individuals, families, the lost

:46:14.:46:15.

vulnerable members of society. That's why this Government launched

:46:16.:46:19.

a joint fraud task force last February with law enforcement and

:46:20.:46:23.

banks and has committed is spending ?1. 9 billion over the next five

:46:24.:46:29.

years on cyber security including tackling cyber enabled fraud. I

:46:30.:46:32.

thank my honourable friend for that answer. Can I ask what assessments

:46:33.:46:38.

he has made of fraud in my `rea The joint fraud task force will cover

:46:39.:46:41.

all the UK and the members of the banks etc who are on that whll be

:46:42.:46:44.

involved in making sure when people commit fraud they can't takd the

:46:45.:46:47.

money out of the country and we at least give time for people to track

:46:48.:46:52.

it back. I would also like to congratulate the Dorset Polhce who

:46:53.:46:56.

launched a fraud prevention campaign in 2015 after reports in his County

:46:57.:47:03.

had lost over ?1 million to fraud. I am still not cop Vinced abott what

:47:04.:47:07.

the Home Secretary said abott European co-operation. Could the

:47:08.:47:11.

Minister confirm we will relain members of euro poll which will

:47:12.:47:19.

tackle fraud across Europe. I think you might have to wait for the

:47:20.:47:23.

answer, because the Home Secretary and the colleague are meeting with

:47:24.:47:29.

Europol. What we continue to do is to continue with Interpol and all

:47:30.:47:31.

the other forces of the European Union to make sure this country is

:47:32.:47:36.

safe and secure. Thank you. Question 13. Thank you. The police and Crime

:47:37.:47:42.

Bill will introduce statutory safeguards to the precharge balance

:47:43.:47:46.

process including time limits and judicial - will increase

:47:47.:47:49.

accountability and scrutiny in a way that's manageable for the courts as

:47:50.:47:56.

well. I have met with a 18-xear old conconstitute yept in Lincoln and

:47:57.:48:00.

his family, there has been no admission of guilt nor the police or

:48:01.:48:06.

CPS in a charge to charge or take my constituent to charge. I am aware

:48:07.:48:09.

this is an operational mattdr for the police but my constituent's

:48:10.:48:13.

right to a family life and dducation are being severely detrimental

:48:14.:48:18.

impacted but what I feel is the police's underfunded and

:48:19.:48:21.

understaffed investigation. Will my honourable friend agree to leet to

:48:22.:48:23.

discussion the situation and how best for police forces across the

:48:24.:48:28.

country to avoid lengthy periods of precharge bail for particul`rly

:48:29.:48:31.

young suspects. My honourable friend makes an important point and it s

:48:32.:48:35.

not right some people can spend months or years on prechargd bail

:48:36.:48:39.

with little safeguards. I al happy to meet to discuss how reforms in

:48:40.:48:42.

the case he talks about and we will be bringing forward further

:48:43.:48:45.

amentments to the police and criminal evidence ability of 19 4 to

:48:46.:48:49.

ensure 17-year-olds are tre`ted as children and safeguarded as such.

:48:50.:48:53.

Topical questions. Number one, MrSpeaker. Thank you, MrSpe`ker We

:48:54.:48:58.

are meeting this September `fter terrible events over the sulmer in

:48:59.:49:02.

Nice, Normandy and Munich and we must step up international dfforts

:49:03.:49:07.

to keep our people safe and tackle violent extremism. I have spoken to

:49:08.:49:10.

a number of my counterparts other the summer, not least the French

:49:11.:49:14.

interior Minister and they `ll agree that the UK must not step b`ck from

:49:15.:49:18.

international co-operation on security and counterterrorism and we

:49:19.:49:23.

will not shirk from that. In 20 5 Northumbria Police were involved in

:49:24.:49:26.

13 extraditions. If the Homd Secretary is unable to commht to

:49:27.:49:30.

retaining the European arrest warrant and I listened to hdr

:49:31.:49:32.

earlier answers which didn't offer a great deal of comfort, can she set

:49:33.:49:36.

out in much more detail how she will make sure that we will conthnue to

:49:37.:49:40.

have the powers that we need to tackle cross-border crime, keep our

:49:41.:49:44.

country safe and bring crimhnals to justice? Can I remind the honourable

:49:45.:49:49.

Rab lady that nothing has changed yet. -- we will still have the

:49:50.:49:52.

European arrest war apt in place. The Prime Minister has said she will

:49:53.:49:57.

not be triggering Article 50 until next year. I would urge her to work

:49:58.:50:01.

with her police force and to reassure them that nothing has

:50:02.:50:06.

changed for now. We can carry on with the European arrest warrant. I

:50:07.:50:09.

am assisting a constituent who has been the victim of a fraudulent scam

:50:10.:50:14.

losing over ?30,000 of their life savings. The case has been referred

:50:15.:50:21.

to action fraud. The Ministdr spoke about an increased referrals to

:50:22.:50:23.

action fraud but it's result that is matter. The cases I have de`lt with

:50:24.:50:28.

show poor results. What acthon is being taken to ensure that `ction

:50:29.:50:34.

fraud improve their perform`nce First of all, through furthdr

:50:35.:50:37.

investment we are investing in a new software programme for action fraud

:50:38.:50:42.

that not only will improve the and lips of crimes reported to ht but

:50:43.:50:46.

also will allow victims of fraud to task their case in lifetime online.

:50:47.:50:51.

I have also asked officials in response to my honourable friend's

:50:52.:50:55.

concerns to look at how acthon fraud communicate with members of the

:50:56.:50:57.

public because it's really hmportant that we remember these people are

:50:58.:51:02.

victims, very often they've done nothing brong whatsoever and have

:51:03.:51:06.

been prayed upon by some of the worst people in society. Th`nk you,

:51:07.:51:12.

MrSpeaker. The Home Secretary will be aware of continuing concdrns

:51:13.:51:16.

about the historical conduct of South Yorkshire Police. I understand

:51:17.:51:21.

she's meeting the troous and justice campaign next week to discuss a call

:51:22.:51:26.

for a public inquiry. Is shd also aware of the tragic case of Terry

:51:27.:51:29.

Coles, a Swansea City supporters who have trampled to death by a police

:51:30.:51:34.

force at a football match in 2, 00? Would she agree to look at the

:51:35.:51:38.

evidence and accept that unless we have the truth about all thdse past

:51:39.:51:44.

injustices we won't be able to restore trust in South Yorkshire

:51:45.:51:47.

police? I thank the honourable lady for the question. She's right I am

:51:48.:51:51.

meeting with the truth and justice and look forward to having that

:51:52.:51:55.

opportunity to hear from thdm. This Government has not shirked `t

:51:56.:51:58.

looking at historical cases and if she wants to bring any other to my

:51:59.:52:01.

attention I will certainly look at them. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Red dish

:52:02.:52:07.

Borough council for welcoming five Syrian re-tees and families into our

:52:08.:52:12.

town, over a third more prolised than the County of Worcestershire.

:52:13.:52:17.

Would she update the House on progress being made to follow they

:52:18.:52:21.

follow the example of Redditch Borough council? Can I thank my

:52:22.:52:25.

honourable friend for that puestion. It's local authorities leadhng by

:52:26.:52:29.

example and showing how to welcome families into their community. I

:52:30.:52:33.

particularly welcome Redditch council for leading ahead of the

:52:34.:52:38.

pack and doing so. 188 councils so far are participating. We hope that

:52:39.:52:43.

number will grow. Given the level of public concern about British

:52:44.:52:46.

citizens who travel to fight with Daesh and attempt to return to this

:52:47.:52:50.

country, can a Minister tell me when the numbers of those attempting to

:52:51.:52:53.

return will actually be published and what action will be takdn to

:52:54.:53:00.

keep us safe in this countrx? It's incredibly important that when

:53:01.:53:03.

people return and we hope that they do return, that they are properly

:53:04.:53:06.

managed back into Saturday, not only if they pose a threat, that that

:53:07.:53:11.

threat is managed but if thdy can be removed from radicalisation we take

:53:12.:53:15.

the right steps to do so. I will certainly review her request to

:53:16.:53:18.

publish the numbers of passports etc that have been with held from

:53:19.:53:20.

individuals but first and foremost what I can assure the honourable

:53:21.:53:24.

lady is that we have steps hn place to make sure that these people are

:53:25.:53:27.

not just left alone or indedd that we lose track of them so th`t

:53:28.:53:31.

further risk can be put to the British people. Thank you, Lr

:53:32.:53:36.

Speaker. Fraud and Scrams h`ve a huge impact upon individuals,

:53:37.:53:38.

particularly the elderly who are seen as easy pray. Does my right

:53:39.:53:42.

honourable friend welcome the debate which I am leading this Thursday on

:53:43.:53:47.

scams and commit to review what more can be done to tackle this rank

:53:48.:53:53.

criminality? Can I congratulate the member for his leadership hd has

:53:54.:53:57.

shown, both on fraud but also on consumer rights and making sure that

:53:58.:54:00.

the vulnerable in society are not taken advantage of. That's why we

:54:01.:54:04.

set up the joint fraud task force and have invited people likd Age

:54:05.:54:08.

Concern to make sure the elderly, for example, are protected `nd we do

:54:09.:54:12.

more to make sure in future the people that commit those crhmes are

:54:13.:54:17.

caught and the elderly are defended from unscrupulous behaviour. Thank

:54:18.:54:23.

you, MrSpeaker. One of my constituents has recently rdturned

:54:24.:54:26.

from Greece, she was work as a volunteer in a refugee centre and

:54:27.:54:29.

brought back harrowing accotnts of conditions facing in partictlar

:54:30.:54:33.

young unaccompanied refugees. What steps is the Secretary of State

:54:34.:54:37.

taking to make sure young unaccompanied refugees if they have

:54:38.:54:40.

a right to move to the UK whth families are allowed to do so

:54:41.:54:44.

without any delay? Well, I thank the honourable gentleman for th`t

:54:45.:54:49.

question. We take very seriously our obligations under the Dublin

:54:50.:54:52.

agreement and will always look at how we can help unaccompanidd

:54:53.:54:57.

refugees, we have sonneded officials working with Greece, Italian and

:54:58.:55:00.

French counterparts and hopd to be able to speed up the process going

:55:01.:55:06.

forward. Thank you, MrSpeakdr. The Minister will be aware that the

:55:07.:55:10.

Police Federation called for a review of the position regarding

:55:11.:55:13.

police officers and visible. Will the Minister be able to givd me

:55:14.:55:17.

assure and shoons the Home Office has no intention of relaxing the

:55:18.:55:21.

current guideline as soon as I thank my honourable friend for th`t

:55:22.:55:25.

question and decisions on wlp to recruit are for the chief officer of

:55:26.:55:28.

the police force kerbed and each case should be treated on its

:55:29.:55:33.

merits. We have no plans to change guidance and the guidance is clear,

:55:34.:55:37.

should not have tattoos that can cause offence or undermine the role

:55:38.:55:44.

of a police constable. Leadhng os such as freedom from torturd are

:55:45.:55:47.

very concerned that the defhnition of torture used in imnebt statutory

:55:48.:55:55.

guidance of adults at risk hn immigration and detext should be

:55:56.:55:59.

wide enough to cover. Will she agree to meet to discuss these concerns

:56:00.:56:05.

urgently? I am more than happy to meet with the honourable melber I

:56:06.:56:08.

understand exactly the point he makes where groups like Daesh and

:56:09.:56:16.

the Taliban can be indulging in terrible acts and we need to make

:56:17.:56:17.

sure we address that situathon. With the minister be willing to meet

:56:18.:56:31.

with the Metropolitan Policd and why they are not prepared to medt with

:56:32.:56:39.

people who prevented -- presented a dossier about Tower Hamlets which

:56:40.:56:42.

showed a damning dossier of coronal intent on why this has not been

:56:43.:56:49.

taken forward by the police? From -- criminals tend. I would be

:56:50.:56:57.

willing to meet with Councillor Peter goals. This is an ongoing

:56:58.:57:03.

situation and questions havd been put in to investigate.

:57:04.:57:10.

Can I understand from the Home Secretary's earlier answer hs that

:57:11.:57:13.

it is her intention that thd relatives of those killed in the

:57:14.:57:17.

Birmingham pub bombings shotld have access to legal representathon at

:57:18.:57:23.

the fresh inquest? I'm afrahd the honourable gentleman has got a

:57:24.:57:26.

little ahead of the meeting I am having this afternoon in order to

:57:27.:57:31.

address exactly that propos`l. No decision has been made yet. Better

:57:32.:57:37.

to be a head than behind! The general consensus on that point Sir

:57:38.:57:44.

David Amis. I recently visited a UN gift box event organised by a

:57:45.:57:50.

charity. Will my honourable friend agree with me that the general

:57:51.:57:54.

public should do everything they can to cooperate with the policd and

:57:55.:57:58.

other authorities to stamp out this terrible trade. I agree enthrely.

:57:59.:58:07.

The public has a vital role in tackling this horrendous crhme and

:58:08.:58:12.

in July 2015, the Home Office ran an online campaign and on TV and radio

:58:13.:58:17.

raising awareness around hulan trafficking and those campahgn

:58:18.:58:20.

materials are available on the website. A UN resolution in May the

:58:21.:58:30.

targeting of medical facilities of the Syrian government has

:58:31.:58:35.

exacerbated the refugee crisis will be Home Secretary work with

:58:36.:58:39.

colleagues across government to prevent this despicable targeting of

:58:40.:58:44.

hospitals by Syrian governmdnt and international law is complidd with.

:58:45.:58:50.

The honourable lady raises ` valuable point and yes, I whll, we

:58:51.:58:55.

will do everything we can to help the people of Syria who are

:58:56.:58:57.

undergoing those terrible circumstances. Tragically,

:58:58.:59:03.

ex-footballer Dalian Atkinson recently died outside his f`ther's

:59:04.:59:12.

house outside his father 's -- in my constituency after eight daxs was

:59:13.:59:19.

used. Body cans were not behng used, with the police -- body camdras were

:59:20.:59:24.

not be in use, with the Minhster agree that they should be? The

:59:25.:59:33.

deployment of body cameras hs matter for the police but it is

:59:34.:59:36.

inappropriate for me to comlent as there is an inquest. I have a young

:59:37.:59:45.

couple in my constituency from Slovakia to have been in Scotland

:59:46.:59:51.

for 15 years and began the process of applying for citizenship after

:59:52.:59:56.

the Brexit diverge. The first stage is permanent right of residdnce The

:59:57.:00:01.

lady in this couple was reftsed and I cannot understand, when the Home

:00:02.:00:05.

Secretary describes that nothing has yet changed, how and EU Nathonal

:00:06.:00:09.

could be refused residency `fter living here for 14 years? It is a

:00:10.:00:17.

difficult to comment on indhvidual situations like that. But I will ask

:00:18.:00:21.

the honourable lady issue whll invite my department to havd a look

:00:22.:00:27.

and I would ask her and othdr honourable members to reasstre their

:00:28.:00:30.

constituents that at the molent nothing has changed. There hs no

:00:31.:00:39.

point in naming the French for the mess in Calais if we continte to be

:00:40.:00:44.

a magnet for illegal migrants. We grant asylum to more it leg`l -

:00:45.:00:50.

illegal migrants and deport fewer than France. Half applications were

:00:51.:00:58.

granted and of the ones reftse, only half were deported. With thd Home

:00:59.:01:03.

Secretary take steps to deal with illegal migration? I'm alwaxs keen

:01:04.:01:07.

to take action to follow thd law where it is appropriate. I would say

:01:08.:01:12.

to the right honourable gentleman, there are many reasons why we are

:01:13.:01:16.

more popular than other countries for asylum seekers. It is often to

:01:17.:01:23.

do with language, family, it is not the whole process around asxlum

:01:24.:01:26.

seeking. But we take it serhously to get those numbers down. As the Home

:01:27.:01:33.

Secretary seen the report from the NSPCC that suggests that people as

:01:34.:01:39.

young as 11 are becoming thd victims of revenge attacks. When will the

:01:40.:01:53.

Department do something to stop this because these pictures get out and

:01:54.:02:00.

become a child abuse images. The government has brought in

:02:01.:02:06.

legislation to make new offdnsive and also educate young people and

:02:07.:02:09.

their families of the risks they are taking in sharing images of

:02:10.:02:14.

themselves online. We will everything we can do to protect

:02:15.:02:17.

young people. We must move on. Argent question, Mr

:02:18.:02:26.

Hilary Benn. Will the Secretary of State for foreign and, love affairs

:02:27.:02:29.

make a statement on governmdnt assessments of breaches of

:02:30.:02:33.

international humanitarian law in the Yemen? I call the Minister at

:02:34.:02:41.

the Foreign Commonwealth Office, Mr Tobias Ellwood. I would like to

:02:42.:02:48.

thank the honourable member for raising this issue and pay tribute

:02:49.:02:52.

to him for the work that he does in keeping the House up-to-datd in

:02:53.:02:57.

these matters. Recognising the importance of this, my honotrable

:02:58.:03:03.

friend the Foreign Secretarx that adds a written statement to update

:03:04.:03:07.

Parliament on the situation in Yemen. It includes referencds to

:03:08.:03:13.

international humanitarian law. We are aware of reports of alldged

:03:14.:03:18.

violations of international humanitarian law by parties to

:03:19.:03:22.

conflict. And as I have said on many occasions, we take these allegations

:03:23.:03:27.

very seriously. The governmdnt regularly raises the import`nce of

:03:28.:03:31.

compliance with internation`l humanitarian law with the S`udi

:03:32.:03:34.

Arabian government and other members of the Saudi Arabian - led lilitary

:03:35.:03:44.

coalition. The Foreign Secrdtary raised this issue with his Saudi

:03:45.:03:49.

counterpart, the Foreign Minister, on the 22nd of August. I also did

:03:50.:03:55.

this last week on the 25th of August at the Yemen conference chahred by

:03:56.:04:01.

Secretary John Kerry. It is important that in the first

:04:02.:04:07.

instance, the Saudi Arabian led coalition conducts thorough and

:04:08.:04:10.

conclusive investigations into incidents where it is allegdd that

:04:11.:04:14.

international humanitarian law has been breached. This follows

:04:15.:04:21.

international practice. Thex have the best insights into their own

:04:22.:04:25.

military procedures and will be able to conduct the most Arab and

:04:26.:04:28.

conclusive investigations. Ht will also allow the dashed the most

:04:29.:04:38.

thorough and investigations. -- the most thorough investigations. It

:04:39.:04:39.

will allow them to adapt. most thorough investigations. It

:04:40.:04:44.

will allow them to The best solutions. In this respect, Saudi

:04:45.:04:52.

Arabia announced more detail of how incidents of concern involvhng

:04:53.:04:55.

coalition forces are investhgated on the 31st of January. The Satdi

:04:56.:05:01.

Arabia led coalition joint investigations team announcdd the

:05:02.:05:07.

allowed comes -- outcomes on the 3rd of August and further investigations

:05:08.:05:12.

will follow. I would like to reiterate that clarifications made

:05:13.:05:16.

on the 21st of July Britain ministerial statement do not reflect

:05:17.:05:21.

a change in position. The changes were made to assure that thd

:05:22.:05:25.

parliamentary record is consistent and it also accurately refldcts

:05:26.:05:29.

policy. As outlined on the statement on the 21st of July, it is hmportant

:05:30.:05:35.

to make clear that neither the Minister of defence, nor thd Foreign

:05:36.:05:37.

Commonwealth Office reachds a conclusion as to whether an

:05:38.:05:42.

international humanitarian law violation has taken place in

:05:43.:05:45.

relation to each and every hncident of potential concern. That ,- of

:05:46.:05:54.

every incident that comes to its attention. That would not bd

:05:55.:05:59.

possible in conflicts of whhch the UK is not a party, like in Xemen.

:06:00.:06:05.

The Ministry of Defence monhtors instances of alleged intern`tional

:06:06.:06:11.

human -- humanitarian law vholations using information. This is tsed to

:06:12.:06:16.

form a view on the approach of Saudi Arabia on the humanitarian law. This

:06:17.:06:23.

in turn informs the risk assessment made and the Consolidated criteria

:06:24.:06:26.

on whether there is a risk that it might be used in the commission of a

:06:27.:06:30.

serious violation of intern`tional humanitarian law. We are not acting

:06:31.:06:36.

to determine whether a sovereign state has or has not acted hn the

:06:37.:06:40.

breach of international hum`nitarian law, but instead, as criterhon to

:06:41.:06:50.

see requires, we are acting to make an overall judgment. I am sorry

:06:51.:06:54.

there has been confusion and in summary, we are responding to two

:06:55.:06:59.

Britain ministerial requests that were in error and trawling for other

:07:00.:07:05.

ministerial questions of whhch there are over 90, four more were indeed

:07:06.:07:10.

seem to be in error. I came to the House in order to clarify that that

:07:11.:07:14.

as soon as I became aware of it I made a statement and wrote to the

:07:15.:07:20.

Right honourable gentleman `nd the chair of the different commhttee as

:07:21.:07:26.

well as the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and I hope this clarifies

:07:27.:07:33.

the situation. Hilary Benn. I thank the Minister for his reply. There

:07:34.:07:36.

have been many reports by the UN and others of breaches in international

:07:37.:07:44.

law by both coalitions which use British military equipment.

:07:45.:07:46.

Ministers are being repeatedly questioned about this and the House

:07:47.:07:50.

was told by the government, we have assessed that there has not been a

:07:51.:07:56.

breach of international hum`nitarian law. Then we are told on thd 21st of

:07:57.:08:01.

July, by chance, the date on which the House rose, that a ministerial

:08:02.:08:05.

statement corrected this and other answers. It stated that we have been

:08:06.:08:09.

unable to assess that there has been a breach of IHL. The opposite of

:08:10.:08:17.

what the House had been told. I listened to what the ministdr had to

:08:18.:08:21.

say that he offered no exhalation as to why this happened. So firstly,

:08:22.:08:28.

will he now do so? This is not a minor error, but a consistent

:08:29.:08:33.

failure to provide accurate answers. Secondly, the mistakes were

:08:34.:08:37.

identified on the 24th of Jtne but were not reported to the Hotse until

:08:38.:08:41.

27 days later even though the ministerial code which says that

:08:42.:08:47.

ministers not correct any inadvertent error at the earliest

:08:48.:08:51.

opportunity. Why did it takd so long? And today it appears that

:08:52.:08:56.

after months when it was apparently incapable of doing an assessment of

:08:57.:09:01.

IHL, the government has man`ged to undertake one doing the recdss in

:09:02.:09:05.

nation to the Arms export tdsts which say that a licence should not

:09:06.:09:11.

be granted if there is a cldar risk of violations of IHL. And the

:09:12.:09:15.

Foreign Secretary told is only this morning that having regard to the

:09:16.:09:18.

information available to us, we assess that this test has not been

:09:19.:09:24.

made. When is an assessment not been -- not an assessment? Willid

:09:25.:09:34.

Minister Tellez tell us which test preceded this assessment and will be

:09:35.:09:38.

government now suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia until it is able to

:09:39.:09:42.

assure the House that it has done a proper assessment and can explain

:09:43.:09:47.

why it believes that IHL has not been breached in Yemen when the

:09:48.:09:52.

United Nations clearly says that it has? Let's take a step back and make

:09:53.:10:03.

it very clear as to why Saudi Arabia is leading the coalition to support

:10:04.:10:09.

the president. They are allowed to do that because of UN resolttion to

:10:10.:10:15.

216. Had they not done that, the atrocities that we see, the

:10:16.:10:18.

devastation taking place in this country, would be a lot worse. The

:10:19.:10:23.

other coalition would have pushed through to the port of Aden. It

:10:24.:10:28.

would be hit a humanitarian catastrophe. Having said th`t,

:10:29.:10:33.

absolutely we need to make sure that our allies and partners are

:10:34.:10:38.

honouring IHL. Which is why we raise these matters only regular basis. I

:10:39.:10:44.

invite the honourable member to join me when the Minister of Saudi Arabia

:10:45.:10:49.

comes to this place on Wedndsday in order to address any questions that

:10:50.:10:54.

are put by parliamentarians. At ten o'clock. He is more than welcome. I

:10:55.:10:58.

will make sure that he is able to play those questions to the Foreign

:10:59.:11:03.

Minister himself. But on a general basis, he simply repeated the

:11:04.:11:07.

difference in the two lines that I have endeavoured to correct. I have

:11:08.:11:11.

answered over 90 parliament`ry questions on this matter. Wd found

:11:12.:11:15.

out that two of them were incorrectly written with a for the

:11:16.:11:21.

-- further trawl, that four more were incorrect. We immediatdly

:11:22.:11:24.

decided to correct the mattdr. I agree that the timing of thhs,

:11:25.:11:30.

firstly in replying to the various heads of committees, was slower than

:11:31.:11:33.

it should have been. The re`son for that is not because of any other

:11:34.:11:41.

reason, simply because therd was a change of government. There were

:11:42.:11:45.

delays. I didn't know if I was going to continue in this portfolho. As

:11:46.:11:50.

soon as I became aware, I m`de sure that the necessary informathon was

:11:51.:11:53.

out there and we made a further trawl to make sure there was nothing

:11:54.:11:58.

else. And then I wrote to the committee chairs, including the

:11:59.:11:59.

right honourable gentleman. Comply with international

:12:00.:12:13.

humanitarian law in their operations in the Yemen. But will he rdmind the

:12:14.:12:22.

House that the GCC states are allies and the coalition is operathng under

:12:23.:12:26.

the authority of a unanimously adopted UN resolution in response to

:12:27.:12:32.

an illegal usurpage of power in the Yemen. I am grateful for thd

:12:33.:12:37.

question. It gives me licence to spell out the fact this is `ctually

:12:38.:12:41.

new territory for Saudi Arabia. In the same way that we have ldarned to

:12:42.:12:47.

make sure that when errors `re made on the battlefield, when thdre is

:12:48.:12:50.

collateral damage we put our hand up and say something has happened that

:12:51.:12:53.

shouldn't have happened. Th`t's what the Americans did in Afghanhstan

:12:54.:12:58.

when a hospital was hit. But we are dealing with a conservative nation

:12:59.:13:01.

not used to such exposure and I am pleased to say we are making

:13:02.:13:04.

progress to make sure they `nswer to the international scrutiny that they

:13:05.:13:11.

must answer to. MrSpeaker, I would echo strongly the

:13:12.:13:15.

concerns raised by my right honourable friend. The incorrect

:13:16.:13:19.

answers he and other members were given are totally unacceptable and

:13:20.:13:22.

so was the timing in which they were corrected which has added insult to

:13:23.:13:24.

injury. It is clear that thd assurances this House has previously

:13:25.:13:28.

given on breaches of humanitarian law have proved inaccurate. I would

:13:29.:13:32.

want to ask the Minister whdther other assurances we have bedn given

:13:33.:13:36.

remain valid. In May, the Mhnister for defence procurement told this

:13:37.:13:40.

House that there was no evidence that coalition forces in Yelen had

:13:41.:13:44.

used cluster munition in civilian areas, he claimed that the cluster

:13:45.:13:48.

munitions found responsible for the death and maiming of many innocent

:13:49.:13:51.

civilians had come from previous conflicts in the region. Dods the

:13:52.:13:54.

Foreign Office stand by this assessment? In May we also `sked a

:13:55.:13:59.

question that the procurement Minister failed to answer, so I give

:14:00.:14:02.

the Foreign Office Minister an opportunity to answer this today.

:14:03.:14:06.

Had the coalition forces in emwhien used weapons or planes manufactured

:14:07.:14:08.

in Britain in this conflict? Had they used them to drop cluster

:14:09.:14:13.

munitions, had they used thdm to commit breaches of internathonal

:14:14.:14:16.

humanitarian law? And if we simply do not know the answers to those

:14:17.:14:20.

questions, is it right to continue selling weapons and planes to Saudi

:14:21.:14:27.

Arabia until we have answers? MrSpeaker, she begins by saxing it's

:14:28.:14:31.

unacceptable that the statelents that have been made have bedn put

:14:32.:14:34.

out there and I agree with her. That is why I wrote and took measures to

:14:35.:14:39.

make sure that the record w`s corrected. But I make it very clear

:14:40.:14:43.

that the subject of interest that we have, the profile of interest that

:14:44.:14:48.

there is in Yemen with over 90 written Ministerial questions on

:14:49.:14:51.

this matter, means that we had to correct this issue. Two errors were

:14:52.:14:56.

found, a further four on a trawl, that's why I made the necessary

:14:57.:15:00.

letters, wrote the necessarx letters and produced necessary statdments to

:15:01.:15:03.

correct that matter. I apologised to the chamber. I hope that apology is

:15:04.:15:09.

recognised. This wasn't somd big plot, there wasn't some conspiracy

:15:10.:15:14.

to mislead. Our policy remahns extremely clear on where we stand on

:15:15.:15:17.

our support for our friends in the Gulf. She raises the matter of the

:15:18.:15:23.

sale of cluster munitions bx Britain which did happen prior to us signing

:15:24.:15:30.

the convention on cluster mtnitions, the BL 755 I think is the one she

:15:31.:15:35.

may be referring to. One pidce of evidence on this was un - the I am

:15:36.:15:39.

not saying it's OK. What I `m saying is as soon as we found out `bout

:15:40.:15:42.

this we have asked Saudi Ar`bia to do exactly what any other country

:15:43.:15:47.

should do in the same situation and determine what is going on. As soon

:15:48.:15:50.

as we have more information we certainly will share it with the

:15:51.:15:54.

House. Again I invite her to join and pose this question to the

:15:55.:15:57.

Foreign Minister when he coles on Wednesday.

:15:58.:16:07.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's tragic whenever anyone is killed who is an

:16:08.:16:14.

innocent in such a conflict. I visited the Saudi-led air operations

:16:15.:16:21.

centre some months ago in Rhyadh. I specifically asked the pilots and

:16:22.:16:27.

the commanders there their rules on weapons release above targets in

:16:28.:16:32.

Yemen. I have to say I was very reassured by the answers. It was

:16:33.:16:36.

clear that their procedures seemed to be now as good as our own. Does

:16:37.:16:41.

the Minister agree with me on that statement? This has been a learning

:16:42.:16:46.

curve for Saudi Arabia. There is no doubt about it. But the conference

:16:47.:16:52.

that I attended and represented Britain at last week moved ts

:16:53.:16:55.

forward from conflict, from a military approach to this, to seeing

:16:56.:16:59.

what agreement can be made from a political and military purpose in

:17:00.:17:02.

order that we can put this behind us and create the stability th`t we

:17:03.:17:09.

need in that country. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Given the UK's

:17:10.:17:14.

clear role in the conflict we are still no closer to learning why this

:17:15.:17:19.

Government has failed to carry out their own independent investigation

:17:20.:17:22.

as to whether international humanitarian law has been breached.

:17:23.:17:27.

Hospitals have been bombed `nd civilians have been killed. We must

:17:28.:17:32.

end arps deals to Saudi Arabia now and conduct our own investigation.

:17:33.:17:37.

Ministers must remove their heads from the sand and apologise to this

:17:38.:17:42.

House for attempting to brush the issue under the carpet. Parliament

:17:43.:17:48.

was misled six times but rather than facing the music, did ministers

:17:49.:17:51.

deliberately hide this knowledge from the House until a last day

:17:52.:17:59.

before recess? This House and the public deserve more respect. A

:18:00.:18:03.

humanitarian disaster continues to unfold in front of our ice hn the

:18:04.:18:07.

Yemen. We need answers and `ction today, nothing less will do. Will

:18:08.:18:15.

the Minister commit to ending arms sales to Saudi Arabia? I am sorry,

:18:16.:18:21.

MrSpeaker, that she adopts that tone, it's right that she holds the

:18:22.:18:23.

Government to account and ghven fairness she has been consistent on

:18:24.:18:27.

that matter. I haven't been brushing any issues under the carpet. Quite

:18:28.:18:30.

the contrary, I have been as open as I can about these matters. H make it

:18:31.:18:34.

very clear to the House as H said in my letter to the chairman of the

:18:35.:18:38.

foreign affairs Select Commhttee, if we are not satisfied with the Saudi

:18:39.:18:42.

Arabian investigation itself, we are not opposed to an independent

:18:43.:18:46.

investigation to be conductdd. But first of all, we must honour

:18:47.:18:49.

international standards and allow the Saudi Arabians to conduct their

:18:50.:18:55.

own investigations as we will be doing in similar circumstances.

:18:56.:18:59.

Could the Minister confirm reports that the Prime Minister has raised

:19:00.:19:05.

concerns about the Yemen directly with Saudi Arabian leaders `t the

:19:06.:19:08.

G20 and could the Minister say a bit more about what the Governmdnt is

:19:09.:19:12.

doing to try to get Saudi Arabia to sign up to the UN cluster mtnitions

:19:13.:19:17.

convention? I am very grateful for my rhght

:19:18.:19:21.

honourable friend. She's right that the G20 poses a huge opporttnity for

:19:22.:19:26.

the Prime Minister to share thoughts and concerns about a number of

:19:27.:19:29.

matters pertaining to the Mhddle East. I am not aware at this stage

:19:30.:19:32.

but I will find out whether or not she had an opportunity. I cdrtainly

:19:33.:19:36.

did when I was with the Fordign Minister and also the Foreign

:19:37.:19:39.

Minister of the Emirates as well as with John Kerry last week and as I

:19:40.:19:43.

said there is a further opportunity for this House indeed to rahse those

:19:44.:19:46.

questions too. She raises the specific question to do with cluster

:19:47.:19:53.

munitions and the convention. I have invited Saudi Arabia to consider

:19:54.:19:56.

signing this as an indication of where Saudi Arabia wants to move to

:19:57.:20:02.

in the future. Can I thank the Minister for coming to the House and

:20:03.:20:06.

correcting the record on thd errors that have occurred. He will know

:20:07.:20:11.

that three members of this House, the honourable lady, the melber for

:20:12.:20:14.

Portsmouth south, Walsall south and myself were born in Yemen. Our fear

:20:15.:20:21.

is that Yemen is leading to death. There is a massive humanitarian

:20:22.:20:25.

crisis, the worst in the world. Could he tell the House what is

:20:26.:20:30.

being done in order to get food into the population of Yemen and to make

:20:31.:20:34.

sure that happens as quicklx as possible? MrSpeaker, can I pay

:20:35.:20:38.

tribute to the right honour`ble gentleman and the work he h`s done.

:20:39.:20:42.

He has obviously a personal interest in this matter as do others. He has

:20:43.:20:46.

raised this particular subjdct on many occasions indeed. I am pleased

:20:47.:20:50.

that he has raised the huge concern which I think the House shares about

:20:51.:20:55.

the humanitarian catastrophd that is unfolding there. To give it an

:20:56.:21:00.

illustration, the month of July 43% of the monthly food needs wdre

:21:01.:21:04.

actually met in this countrx and only 23% of the fuel needs were met.

:21:05.:21:09.

That's because there is no `ccess or complete access to the country. We

:21:10.:21:13.

need to see, not just aid coming in through the port of Aden but also

:21:14.:21:17.

further up the West Coast opened up so that can have access to the north

:21:18.:21:25.

part of the country. Does the Government support the establishment

:21:26.:21:29.

of an international independent investigation following hum`n rights

:21:30.:21:32.

council as we have done with other initiatives when it's happened with

:21:33.:21:35.

conflicts in other countries like Sri Lanka, for example?

:21:36.:21:41.

My honourable friend raises a valid point. The process that we follow is

:21:42.:21:46.

to encourage any country to conduct their own investigations as we would

:21:47.:21:50.

do ourselves. As I have just stated in answer to a previous question, if

:21:51.:21:55.

we find that those investig`tions are left wanting, then absolutely we

:21:56.:21:58.

will call for an independent investigation. But as I said in my

:21:59.:22:02.

opening remarks, eight publhcations have already come forward in looking

:22:03.:22:06.

and analysing the certain breaches or events that have taken place and

:22:07.:22:10.

further publications on othdr events will also be coming in the near

:22:11.:22:18.

future. Given the fact that Saudi-led coalition support the

:22:19.:22:22.

Yemen Government is clearly targeting civilian areas can the

:22:23.:22:27.

Minister remind us why exactly we are supporting them? The conduct of

:22:28.:22:36.

war in yem been is complicated. Much of the conflict is taking place in

:22:37.:22:42.

urban areas. The Houthis ard using civilians as guards in order to

:22:43.:22:46.

deliberately take the battld into the towns and cities itself.

:22:47.:22:50.

Therefore, it is very complhcated indeed. We have encouraged Saudi

:22:51.:22:54.

Arabia and the coalition to make sure that as limited collatdral

:22:55.:22:57.

damage takes place as possible. But she somehow seems to suggest that if

:22:58.:23:03.

we did not support UN resolttion 2216, we did not support Prdsident

:23:04.:23:07.

Hardy's request for support, that somehow Yemen would be in a better

:23:08.:23:11.

place. I can tell the honourable lady quite the opposite would be the

:23:12.:23:20.

case. Could the Minister confirm whether he believes al-Qaed` is

:23:21.:23:26.

active in Yemen and if so how? I can confirm. Unfortunatelx as we

:23:27.:23:29.

are this House is only too `ware, where there is conflict and where

:23:30.:23:33.

there is instability it's vdry easy for extremism to flourish. Xemen is

:23:34.:23:47.

a great example of that. As long as there is instability they whll

:23:48.:23:52.

continue to flourish. A port in the south until recently was colpletely

:23:53.:23:56.

run, this is an entire city, run by al-Qaeda. That is why we nedd a

:23:57.:24:03.

political solution for this country. Just over a year ago my honourable

:24:04.:24:06.

friend for Liverpool rivershde and I presented a petition to this House

:24:07.:24:10.

about the dire humanitarian crisis in the Yemen. In light of the

:24:11.:24:14.

statement made today can I trge the Minister to once again revisit the

:24:15.:24:18.

issue of immediate relatives and dependents of British citizdns who

:24:19.:24:21.

can't get out of the Yemen `nd are often stuck in areas that don't have

:24:22.:24:25.

access to humanitarian aid workers and who are having to wait tp to 12

:24:26.:24:28.

months for a decision on thdir application to come to Brit`in and

:24:29.:24:31.

to urge him to work with his colleagues in the Home Office to

:24:32.:24:36.

speed up this process. She raises two important but related issues

:24:37.:24:40.

there. The first is to do whth the humanitarian support, international

:24:41.:24:44.

support for the country. Thhs is something that my right honourable

:24:45.:24:47.

friend will be raising at the UN general Assembly to see what more

:24:48.:24:52.

the international community can do. With regards to the migrant

:24:53.:24:55.

situation and those being granted refugee status I will raise that

:24:56.:25:00.

with my Home Office colleagtes. Given the recent upgrade in

:25:01.:25:04.

diplomatic relationships between the UK and Iran, can the Ministdr inform

:25:05.:25:08.

the House whether the issue of Yemen will be subject to discussions

:25:09.:25:14.

between the two countries? My honourable friend raises a very

:25:15.:25:17.

important point. The responsible role that Iran can and should take,

:25:18.:25:22.

given where they are now in relation to the nuclear deal. If thex want to

:25:23.:25:27.

play a helpful role on the international stage in this region

:25:28.:25:31.

then they need to check thehr proxy influence in places such as Bahrain,

:25:32.:25:36.

in places such as Yemen, such as Damascus and indeed in Baghdad, as

:25:37.:25:43.

well. Only last month Oxfam claimdd that

:25:44.:25:46.

the UK Government has switched from being an enthuse as continuhng

:25:47.:25:50.

backer of the arms trade trdaty to one of the most significant

:25:51.:25:54.

violators. The Government h`s lost immense credibility over thhs saga

:25:55.:25:57.

which was not helped with l`st minute retractions. Does thd

:25:58.:26:02.

Government not accept that hf it echoed calls for an international

:26:03.:26:06.

independent inquiry then thd added transparency and accountability

:26:07.:26:10.

would be a benefit to all stake holders involved?

:26:11.:26:15.

Mr Speaker, I don't agree whth the first part of her statement, but

:26:16.:26:21.

this second part I do agree with. But the process we must follow is to

:26:22.:26:27.

encourage a Saudi Arabia to do the necessary investigations, which they

:26:28.:26:31.

are starting. If we find those investigations are wanting, then we

:26:32.:26:35.

should call for an independdnt international investigation. Mark

:26:36.:26:45.

Brickyard. Iran -- Mark Butcher Iran has obligations as a S`udi

:26:46.:26:53.

Arabia. But several months `go, when it was revealed that the UK was

:26:54.:26:59.

supplying weapons to Saudi @rabia for the Yemeni campaign, thd

:27:00.:27:03.

justification for the government 's and were that these weapons were

:27:04.:27:07.

accurate and needed by Saudh Arabia and the technical targeting

:27:08.:27:11.

assistance was being providdd by the bridges to make sure that these

:27:12.:27:13.

accurate weapons were even lore accurate. -- provided by thd

:27:14.:27:20.

British. If so, why have so many weapons gone astray? I can say that

:27:21.:27:27.

we have a very robust relathonship with Saudi Arabia. We are able to

:27:28.:27:31.

raise matters in private th`t we would not be able to raise hn public

:27:32.:27:37.

and many of the issues, that applies to. However, this is a legitimate

:27:38.:27:42.

coalition and they are allowed to use weapons which are provided and

:27:43.:27:49.

sold by the United Kingdom. One of the accusations against Saudi Arabia

:27:50.:27:54.

is that UK made cluster munhtions have been used in Yemen. Thd

:27:55.:27:59.

minister told us before the recess that the last time the UK sold

:28:00.:28:04.

customer relations was 30 ydars ago. What the MoD's assessment on the

:28:05.:28:11.

usability of these weapons `nd whether they have ever been used? Mr

:28:12.:28:17.

Speaker, I recognise the interest and the expertise that he brings to

:28:18.:28:22.

the House, given his work as a minister in the MoD. As a rdserve as

:28:23.:28:27.

standard ex-member of the rdgular forces, I would not go near any

:28:28.:28:33.

ordnance that is over 20 ye`rs old. These cluster munitions that have

:28:34.:28:37.

been discussed are well past their sell by date and should not be used

:28:38.:28:45.

by anybody. I welcome the efforts that my honourable friend's

:28:46.:28:49.

department has made in helphng Saudis with their IHL and hhs work

:28:50.:28:58.

in the armed conflict. I wonder if he has used any of our Brithsh imams

:28:59.:29:02.

who have served in the Armed Forces for the lighter kingdom, many who

:29:03.:29:09.

have studied the sayings of the first imams who would -- set out the

:29:10.:29:19.

rules of law and would remind people that these are Islamic seasons? His

:29:20.:29:25.

knowledge and expertise in this area I picture me too. I studied jet

:29:26.:29:32.

rebel over the summer and she studied and learned the Quebec City

:29:33.:29:36.

that we are dealing with in what is today Saudi Arabia. That we have to

:29:37.:29:44.

to recognise, it is a conservative society and they are being

:29:45.:29:46.

encouraged to move at a faster pace than many other countries in the

:29:47.:29:53.

world, not in the -- not only in the running of a campaign of war. The

:29:54.:30:01.

key test for continued exports to Saudi is whether there is a clear

:30:02.:30:10.

risk of as weapons may be used in a serious violation of IHL. If the

:30:11.:30:14.

government does not consider the repeated bombings of hospit`ls,

:30:15.:30:20.

schools, and the destruction of whole cities -- designation of whole

:30:21.:30:25.

cities, as violations of IHL, what does fall into that categorx? He

:30:26.:30:30.

states in number of events that have taken place which are being looked

:30:31.:30:35.

into by Saudi Arabia itself. But he also holds a comparison with what

:30:36.:30:38.

happens in the United States where also a hospital was attacked. The

:30:39.:30:44.

question is whether any nathon puts up its hand and says a mist`ke has

:30:45.:30:47.

been made or whether they are trying to cover up and say it has not

:30:48.:30:52.

happened, which would be a breach of international humanitarian law.

:30:53.:30:58.

These are not minor correcthons issued on the 21st of July. The

:30:59.:31:01.

government is now saying thd complete opposite of what they said

:31:02.:31:10.

before. I'm reminded of the press Secretary of Nixon, who said all

:31:11.:31:13.

previous statements are an operative. It is not that they said

:31:14.:31:18.

before that there was no is reaches and they are now saying thex could

:31:19.:31:23.

not say whether there have been breaches. The government saxs that

:31:24.:31:28.

the MoD has not assess whether the Saudis are targeting civili`ns. This

:31:29.:31:31.

is a serious matter, the government must take action and we want answers

:31:32.:31:37.

to these questions. Are thex Saudis targeting civilians, yes or no? And

:31:38.:31:42.

the Minister must come back to the House and answer these questions. My

:31:43.:31:47.

right honourable friend makds his point. I make the point that each

:31:48.:31:52.

case is looked at in its own right. Each arms export is studied under

:31:53.:31:59.

the roof -- criteria we operate from. We look at the intent of that

:32:00.:32:03.

country in how those weapons systems will be used. As a stand, wd do not

:32:04.:32:08.

believe that they will be used in breach of IHL. -- as it stands. I

:32:09.:32:17.

agree that the Minister's and the government's communications have

:32:18.:32:23.

been Kafka -esque at the le`st. The answers being given to commhttees to

:32:24.:32:30.

his house. The Saudi Arabian themselves admitted on the 4th of

:32:31.:32:35.

August that they had mistakdnly bombed a residential complex and

:32:36.:32:38.

medical facilities, let alone the other examples that have bedn

:32:39.:32:43.

raised. If you satisfied with that? If he is not, will you suspdnd those

:32:44.:32:49.

arms sales? Mr Speaker, thotsands of sorties were made by not just Saudi

:32:50.:32:56.

Arabia but the entire coalition Errors have been made as well. I

:32:57.:33:02.

don't agree that I have somdhow implies that I have misled not been

:33:03.:33:07.

upfront with what is going on. I have been very clear indeed. If he

:33:08.:33:12.

wants to talk about specific issues, I would be happy to deal with him

:33:13.:33:16.

outside the chamber. I have encouraged Saudi Arabia to look into

:33:17.:33:20.

every one of those and provhde a report. Thank you, Miss Mr Speaker.

:33:21.:33:28.

The Minister must be aware that sometimes in the Middle East we have

:33:29.:33:32.

to be careful what we wish for and what may come in its place. But

:33:33.:33:37.

Saudi Arabia could do a lot to reinforce confidence by joining the

:33:38.:33:40.

international ban on cluster munitions which we are alre`dy a

:33:41.:33:46.

part of. I think that is absolutely right. I know there is an intention

:33:47.:33:51.

for Saudi Arabia to move forward on this. But as I had touched on in the

:33:52.:33:56.

past, this is a conservativd society led by a liberal wing of th`t

:33:57.:34:01.

society. They need to move `t a pace which is workable for Saudi Arabia.

:34:02.:34:05.

A major step forward would be considering signing the cluster

:34:06.:34:16.

munitions convention. Mr Spdaker, the situation in Yemen is not

:34:17.:34:23.

improving and respected organisations are calling for

:34:24.:34:26.

investigations. And yet this government in the second qu`rter of

:34:27.:34:32.

2016 with fuelled dis- -- rdfused file applications and many `re

:34:33.:34:37.

pending. Could he speak to his colleagues in the Home Office and

:34:38.:34:41.

impress upon them the need for certainty for those Yemeni citizens

:34:42.:34:44.

that they will not be removdd to a country that is a war zone from

:34:45.:34:49.

bombs we are selling to the Saudis? Am I right in thinking that she is

:34:50.:34:54.

expecting Yemenis based in the UK to be returned to Yemen? I will raise

:34:55.:35:01.

theirs. This has already cole up. I will certainly look into thhs again

:35:02.:35:04.

but my understanding is that nobody is being returned back to a war

:35:05.:35:10.

zone. It is not uncommon for the same point to be raised mord than

:35:11.:35:14.

once in the course of an interrogation of a Minister I'm

:35:15.:35:20.

sure the Minister is intensdly familiar with that fact. Can the

:35:21.:35:27.

Minister reassure the House that the conflict in Yemen and accus`tions of

:35:28.:35:31.

breaches of international humanitarian law are taken hnto

:35:32.:35:35.

consideration when looking `t extending arms exports? I think the

:35:36.:35:43.

answer to that is yes, absolutely that is the case. I would lhke to

:35:44.:35:46.

say that we have now moved forward in our discussions. The Houthis

:35:47.:35:53.

after walking out of discussions in Kuwait are now working with the UN

:35:54.:35:59.

envoy and we will hopefully be able to move forward from war and

:36:00.:36:04.

conflict to political resolttion. Can the Minister please tell the

:36:05.:36:10.

House very simply whether or not any weapons or planes are manuf`ctured

:36:11.:36:14.

in the United Kingdom have been used in the conflict in Yemen and in

:36:15.:36:17.

particular, whether or not they have been used against civilians? The

:36:18.:36:24.

latter part I can't answer but I can say that yes, we have sold weapons

:36:25.:36:29.

systems, aircraft systems to Saudi Arabia and other members of the

:36:30.:36:33.

coalition that have been usdd legitimately, following a rdquest by

:36:34.:36:38.

President Abd Rabbuh Mansur Hadi, under resolution 2216. Can the

:36:39.:36:47.

government come firm that the commitment to Yemen increasdd and it

:36:48.:36:50.

as the fourth largest donor in the world to Yemen and Kenya sh`ll that

:36:51.:36:59.

the aid can be taken to the places that need it most. We are the fourth

:37:00.:37:04.

largest donor and ?85 million of that, I hope we will build to

:37:05.:37:12.

increase that. I hope that dvery effort will be made at the TN

:37:13.:37:16.

General Assembly to rally other countries to provide more fhnancial

:37:17.:37:20.

support as well and make sure that it reaches those people who

:37:21.:37:26.

genuinely require it. Can the Minister outlined what procddures

:37:27.:37:34.

are in place for the sharing of intelligence with Gulf statds from

:37:35.:37:37.

the United Kingdom and what assurances can he give to this House

:37:38.:37:41.

that none of that intelligence is being used to support these air

:37:42.:37:48.

strikes in the Yemen? No, I can t comment for the obvious reasons that

:37:49.:37:52.

we don't intelligence matters at the dispatch box. Mr Nigel Evans. Could

:37:53.:38:02.

the Minister confirm that what he is stating is that he has no evidence

:38:03.:38:07.

whatsoever that Saudi Arabi` has been involved in any human rights

:38:08.:38:11.

violations and if that was the case, that if that evidence was there

:38:12.:38:15.

would he then suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia? It is not my gift to

:38:16.:38:23.

make that judgment. We at the Foreign Office can only makd

:38:24.:38:27.

recommendations. But he is right, if we work to find that there were

:38:28.:38:32.

breaches of IHL, then that would change our view on whether future

:38:33.:38:36.

arms exports would take place. Mr Douglas Chapman. The Saudi

:38:37.:38:44.

government have been trusted with oversight of weapons providdd by the

:38:45.:38:48.

UK Government and used in the Yemen with disastrous consequences. Does

:38:49.:38:54.

the Minister regard this as a misjudgement and should oversight be

:38:55.:39:00.

more independent and begin now? Saudi Arabia has been slow hn

:39:01.:39:04.

recognising international scrutiny in the use of the various wdapons

:39:05.:39:09.

systems that have been used in the conflict itself. Having said that,

:39:10.:39:13.

what we are seeing is an advancement in their own processes and ht is

:39:14.:39:17.

those processes which we must now lean upon to make sure they put

:39:18.:39:21.

their hand up if there is a mistake and any collateral damage. The

:39:22.:39:29.

Minister has said the government is unable to draw conclusions `bout

:39:30.:39:33.

individual allegations. But can the Minister comment on how the overall

:39:34.:39:39.

risk assessment has changed on breaches and how worried is he that

:39:40.:39:43.

weapons manufactured here in the UK have been involved? Mr Speaker, we

:39:44.:39:48.

look to the future to see what is the intent of how the weapons might

:39:49.:39:52.

be used and we also look to see whether or not there is a

:39:53.:39:56.

transparency in the misuse or collateral damage that takes place.

:39:57.:40:01.

That is why we lean on the Saudi Arabians and encourage them to

:40:02.:40:04.

produce the reports which provide the light that the NGOs and other

:40:05.:40:08.

members of the international communities are looking for. In

:40:09.:40:16.

answer to my question on Favre 2, regarding the violations of IHL the

:40:17.:40:19.

Minister said that the government were aware of such reports `nd they

:40:20.:40:25.

would continue to monitor the situation closely. In the

:40:26.:40:29.

intervening seven months, what more information has been gleaned by the

:40:30.:40:32.

government? And could you tdll me what has to happen in Yemen before

:40:33.:40:37.

this government recognises ` breach of IHL? And stops sonic Saudi

:40:38.:40:45.

Arabia? Mr Speaker, I'm not familiar with the exact reports that he is

:40:46.:40:49.

making reference to that I `m happy to speak to him in more det`il. If

:40:50.:40:53.

he is referring to the UN committee of experts, where over 100

:40:54.:40:58.

allegations were actually m`de, that UN team did not set foot in Yemen.

:40:59.:41:06.

When they compiled that evidence. Having said that, we passed that

:41:07.:41:09.

under the Saudi Arabians for to comment. -- for them to comlent

:41:10.:41:17.

With both the Saudi joint incident assessment team and the Yemdni

:41:18.:41:27.

national committee of enquiry failing to carry out proper

:41:28.:41:30.

investigations, does the Minister think it is time to put pressure and

:41:31.:41:34.

have a full independent investigation into what has gone on?

:41:35.:41:41.

If I understand correctly, the two organisations do separate work. What

:41:42.:41:44.

we are expecting from the S`udi Arabians and they have been

:41:45.:41:47.

acknowledged that it has bedn slow, is to make sure that there `re any

:41:48.:41:52.

alleged allegations they look into these matters and provide a full

:41:53.:41:56.

report. The generally investigation team is looking at rights vholations

:41:57.:42:02.

on the ground conducted unddr the fog of war. With the use of child

:42:03.:42:07.

soldiers and the conduct, qtite a separate matter. Why did it have to

:42:08.:42:13.

wait until the very last dax before recess for the corrections to the

:42:14.:42:17.

parliamentary record to be produced? Not even the day before that we

:42:18.:42:21.

could have taken requests? We have had to wait all summer long to have

:42:22.:42:24.

a session and we have had no answers. You would have thotght the

:42:25.:42:27.

government would have had thme enough to answer some of thd

:42:28.:42:32.

questions raised by members today. There were answers. As soon as I

:42:33.:42:36.

found out about it I wrote to the necessary committee chairs.

:42:37.:42:48.

If there was an opportunity before we broke for recess I would have

:42:49.:42:52.

taken it. If there is any consolation, I apologise for the

:42:53.:42:54.

House were not coming here darlier in order to put that on the record

:42:55.:42:58.

and make that clear. The secretary of state for exiting the European

:42:59.:43:05.

Union, the secretary David Davis. Thank you. I thought it would be

:43:06.:43:08.

useful for the House to be brought up to date on the working of my

:43:09.:43:13.

department after the referendum on the 23rd of June. Our instrtctions

:43:14.:43:19.

from the British people are clear. Britain is leaving the European

:43:20.:43:26.

Union. The mandate but that is overwhelming. The referendul of June

:43:27.:43:31.

23 delivered a bigger vote for Brexit than that one by any UK

:43:32.:43:35.

Government in history. It is a national mandate and this government

:43:36.:43:42.

is determined to deliver it in the national interest. The Primd

:43:43.:43:45.

Minister has made clear there will be no attempt to stay in thd EU by

:43:46.:43:50.

the back door. No attempt to delay, frustrate or thwart the will of the

:43:51.:43:55.

British people. No attempt to engineer a referendum. Becatse some

:43:56.:44:00.

people did not like the first answer. The people have spoken in

:44:01.:44:04.

the referendum offered to them by this government and confirmdd by

:44:05.:44:09.

Parliament, by all of us, on both sides of the argument and wd must

:44:10.:44:13.

all respected. That is a silple matter of democratic politics.

:44:14.:44:19.

Naturally, people want to know what Brexit will mean. Simply...

:44:20.:44:29.

Simply... Simply it means ldaving the European Union. So, we will

:44:30.:44:41.

decide on our borders, our laws and the taxpayer's money. It me`ns

:44:42.:44:47.

getting the best deal for Britain, one that is unique to Britahn and

:44:48.:44:52.

not an off the shelf solution. This must mean controls on the ntmber of

:44:53.:44:56.

people who come to Britain from Europe. But also a positive outcome

:44:57.:45:02.

for those who wish to trade in goods and services. This is a historic and

:45:03.:45:06.

positive moment for our nathon. Brexit is not about making the best

:45:07.:45:11.

of a bad job, it is about sdizing a huge and exciting opportunity that

:45:12.:45:15.

will cause a new place for Britain in the world. New freedoms, new

:45:16.:45:24.

opportunities and new horizons for our country. We can get the right

:45:25.:45:27.

trade policy for the UK. We can create a more dynamic econoly, a

:45:28.:45:29.

beacon for free trade across the world. We want to make sure our

:45:30.:45:33.

regulatory environment helps rather than hinders businesses and workers.

:45:34.:45:38.

We can create immigration sxstems that allow us to control nulbers and

:45:39.:45:42.

encourage the best and brightest to come to this country. I want to be

:45:43.:45:48.

clear to our European friends and allies. We do not feed Brexht at

:45:49.:45:53.

ending our relationship with Europe. It is about starting a new one. --

:45:54.:46:00.

we do not see Brexit. We nedd to strengthen our position on Security

:46:01.:46:04.

and defence. It is in the interest of the European Union and the UK

:46:05.:46:07.

that we have the freest trading relationship. We want a strong

:46:08.:46:13.

European Union succeeding economically and politicallx.

:46:14.:46:15.

Working with Britain in manx areas of common interest is cruci`l. We

:46:16.:46:20.

should all approach the negotiations that come about with mutual respect

:46:21.:46:25.

and cooperation. I know the House want to be updated about thd work of

:46:26.:46:29.

the Department. It is a privilege to have been asked to the Primd

:46:30.:46:37.

Minister and the challenge we face is exciting and considerabld. It

:46:38.:46:39.

requires expertise and they consistent approach. Negoti`ting

:46:40.:46:42.

with the EU had to be right and we will take the time to get it right.

:46:43.:46:47.

We will strive to build a n`tional consensus around our approach. We

:46:48.:46:52.

start from a position of economic strength. As the Prime Minister said

:46:53.:46:55.

yesterday there will be challenges ahead but our economy is robust

:46:56.:47:01.

thanks in no small part to the work of my right honourable friend. The

:47:02.:47:07.

latest data suggest manufacturing, consumer confidence and services are

:47:08.:47:11.

all strong. This is contrarx to some of the predictions earlier. But are

:47:12.:47:18.

putting their faith and mondy into this country. The Karma Glaxo Smith

:47:19.:47:23.

Kline, and Siemens all confhrmed they will make major investlents in

:47:24.:47:33.

the UK -- the companies. As other nations are the advantages to them,

:47:34.:47:37.

I am confident they will want to prioritise deals with the UK, too.

:47:38.:47:42.

We are not complacent, however. Our task is to build on the success and

:47:43.:47:47.

strength and negotiate a de`l for exiting the European Union that is

:47:48.:47:50.

in the interest of the entire nation. As I have already indicated,

:47:51.:47:55.

securing deals in our national interest does not mean turnhng our

:47:56.:48:00.

back on Europe. To do so wotld not be in our interest nor your's. We

:48:01.:48:13.

work hard to establish a stdadfast and successful European Union after

:48:14.:48:19.

we depart. So, as we proceed we will be guided by some clear principles.

:48:20.:48:24.

First, as I said, we wish to build a national consensus around otr

:48:25.:48:30.

position. Second, we will always put the national interest first, we will

:48:31.:48:36.

always act in good faith towards our European partners. Third, wherever

:48:37.:48:41.

possible, we will try to minimise any uncertainty that that change can

:48:42.:48:45.

inevitably bring. Fourthly, we will buy the end of this process have

:48:46.:48:51.

left the European Union and put the sovereignty and supremacy of this

:48:52.:48:56.

parliament is beyond doubt. The first formal step in the process of

:48:57.:49:01.

leaving the EU is to invoke article 15, which will start two ye`rs of

:49:02.:49:04.

negotiations. Let me brieflx -- article -- Article 50. We whll work

:49:05.:49:22.

closely with all departments to develop our objectives and develop

:49:23.:49:25.

new relationships with the DU and the rest of the world. Subvdrting

:49:26.:49:29.

the is a first-class team and some of the best in Whitehall Ubtntu

:49:30.:49:37.

engage in this national enddavour -- supporting the event first-class

:49:38.:49:40.

team and some of the best in the Whitehall who want to engagd in this

:49:41.:49:45.

national endeavour. We are growing rapidly with first-class support

:49:46.:49:50.

from other departments. We `re undertaking two broad areas of work.

:49:51.:49:56.

First, determined to build that national consensus, we will talk and

:49:57.:50:01.

listen to as many organisathons and companies as possible. From large to

:50:02.:50:07.

small businesses, devolved administrations, councils, lajor

:50:08.:50:10.

metropolitan bodies and so on. We are already fully engaged whth the

:50:11.:50:14.

governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to ensure ` UK wide

:50:15.:50:19.

approach to negotiations. The Prime Minister met the First Minister and

:50:20.:50:24.

Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland in July. Last week H visited

:50:25.:50:29.

Northern Ireland for meetings with its political leaders, wherd I

:50:30.:50:32.

reiterated our determination that there will be no return to the hard

:50:33.:50:39.

borders of the past. I will visit Scotland and Wales soon. My

:50:40.:50:43.

colleagues and I have discussed the next step. My first meeting was with

:50:44.:50:49.

the general secretary of thd trade union Congress followed by key

:50:50.:50:54.

business groups, representatives of the universities, farming and

:50:55.:50:57.

fishing organisations. This is just the start. In the weeks ahe`d we

:50:58.:51:02.

will speak to as many firms, organisations and bodies as

:51:03.:51:05.

possible. Research institutds, regional and national groups and

:51:06.:51:10.

businesses up and down the country to establish their prioritids and

:51:11.:51:14.

the opportunities for the UK as a whole as part of this exerchse I can

:51:15.:51:18.

announce we will be holding round tables with stakeholders in a series

:51:19.:51:24.

of sectors to ensure the options of the UK are reflected. Bye order

:51:25.:51:29.

There is a lot of unseemly, dare I say it, and statesman-like noise.

:51:30.:51:37.

Somebody muttering. Not too long Atawo legs the gentleman is in

:51:38.:51:43.

order. Let me remind the Hotse that it has always been my practhce to

:51:44.:51:51.

facilitate the fullest and lost extensive interrogation of the

:51:52.:51:55.

Minister. Everybody will have their opportunity but it will be ` good

:51:56.:51:59.

thing if people will listen respectfully if they can manage a

:52:00.:52:04.

smile reminiscent of that the Foreign Secretary that will be a

:52:05.:52:10.

bonus but it is not obligatory. Secretary of the. Those stakeholders

:52:11.:52:15.

include broadcast, financial services, automotive others. I am

:52:16.:52:21.

also having a visit to Dublhn this week. I am working closely with the

:52:22.:52:26.

Foreign Secretary and the sdcretary of State for trade. They have been

:52:27.:52:31.

meeting counterparts in EU states, Washington and Delhi. Supported by

:52:32.:52:37.

officials across government, we are carrying out analysis which will

:52:38.:52:42.

identify the key factors for 50 sectors of British business and that

:52:43.:52:45.

is extremely important for the House to understand. We are buildhng a

:52:46.:52:50.

detailed understanding of otr withdrawal of the EU and its effect

:52:51.:52:54.

on domestic policies to seize opportunities and ensure a smooth

:52:55.:52:58.

process of exit. The referendum result was a clear sign that the

:52:59.:53:03.

majority of the British people want to see Parliament's sovereignty

:53:04.:53:06.

strengthened and so throughout this process Parliament will be regularly

:53:07.:53:11.

informed, outdated and engaged. Finally, we are determined to ensure

:53:12.:53:15.

people have as much stability and certainty in the period leading up

:53:16.:53:21.

to our departure from the ET. Until we leave the European Union we must

:53:22.:53:24.

respect the laws and obligation that membership requires of us. We will

:53:25.:53:27.

also want to ensure certainty when it comes to public funding. The

:53:28.:53:32.

Chancellor has confirmed projects signed before the Autumn St`tement

:53:33.:53:37.

and reset innovation financdd by the European Commission granted before

:53:38.:53:40.

we leave the EU will be unddrwritten by the Treasury after we le`ve.

:53:41.:53:45.

Agriculture is a vital part of the economy and the government will

:53:46.:53:47.

match the current level of payment the sector receives to read direct

:53:48.:53:54.

payment scheme until 2020, `gain providing certainty. In terls of EU

:53:55.:53:58.

nationals in the UK the Prile Minister has been clear she is

:53:59.:54:01.

determined to protect the status of EU nationals already living here and

:54:02.:54:05.

the only circumstances in which that would not be possible is it the

:54:06.:54:09.

British citizens rights in Duropean member states were not protdcted in

:54:10.:54:14.

return. This is something I find frankly hard to imagine. I `m

:54:15.:54:18.

confident that together we will be able to deliver. I am greatly

:54:19.:54:23.

encouraged by the national lood Most of those who I have met who

:54:24.:54:28.

wanted to Remain have accepted the result and now want to make a

:54:29.:54:32.

success of the course Britahn has chosen. Organisations and

:54:33.:54:36.

individuals I have met alre`dy that backed the Remain campaign now want

:54:37.:54:41.

to be engaged in the process of exit and identifying positive ch`nges

:54:42.:54:44.

that will flow as well as the challenges. I want us to cole

:54:45.:54:47.

together as one nation to gdt the best deal for Britain. In

:54:48.:54:52.

conclusion, we are confident that negotiating a new position that will

:54:53.:54:55.

mean this country flourishing outside the European Union while

:54:56.:55:00.

keeping its members as friends, allies and trading partners. We will

:55:01.:55:06.

leave the European Union but we will not. Fine order. The honour`ble

:55:07.:55:12.

member for Perth is an aspiring statesman.

:55:13.:55:20.

These aspirations may be a little way from fulfilment. But I want to

:55:21.:55:30.

hear the Secretary of State's continuation. Secretary of the. A

:55:31.:55:34.

long-standing aspiration, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker. We are

:55:35.:55:39.

confident of negotiating a position that will mean this country

:55:40.:55:43.

flourishing outside the EU. Keeping its members as our friends, allies

:55:44.:55:48.

and our trading partners. Wd will leave the European Union -- we will

:55:49.:55:52.

leave the European Union but we will not turn our back on Europe. We will

:55:53.:55:58.

deliver on the national mandate for Brexit and we will deliver ht in the

:55:59.:56:00.

national interest. Emily Thornbury. Thank you, Mr

:56:01.:56:12.

Speaker. Let me begin by welcoming the secretary of States to his new

:56:13.:56:16.

role. It has been many years since his last appearance at the dispatch

:56:17.:56:21.

box. I believe his last words then, were you have to answer. Let's hope

:56:22.:56:28.

we will get answers today. Can I welcome his word that he will start

:56:29.:56:34.

listening to people. Can he start by putting a telephone number on his

:56:35.:56:39.

website. It has been diffictlt to track his department down. Some of

:56:40.:56:43.

the answers, we would expect because the spin before today's statement

:56:44.:56:47.

was so much promise. We heard that we were going to year what the

:56:48.:56:52.

government's strategy for Brexit was. What we have heard has not been

:56:53.:56:58.

a strategy, or a thought out plan, it has been more empty plathtudes.

:56:59.:57:01.

From a government that does continues to make it up as ht goes

:57:02.:57:08.

along. Last night, we had the Prime Minister 's seemingly, on a plane,

:57:09.:57:13.

telling us at least what shd wasn't going to be doing. It seems we are

:57:14.:57:18.

not going to have a point -based immigration system or any extra

:57:19.:57:22.

money for the NHS or any reduction in VAT on the world. But wh`t we

:57:23.:57:27.

have not been told is what they are going to do. When are they going to

:57:28.:57:32.

tell us how they are going to deliver free trade for Brithsh

:57:33.:57:36.

businesses whilst also imposing immigration controls? Let alone how

:57:37.:57:40.

they are going to address the red line is that Labour has dem`nded on

:57:41.:57:50.

protection of workers' rights and guarantees for EU citizens. The

:57:51.:57:52.

Secretary of State says he wants to present a positive Britain boasts

:57:53.:57:55.

Brexit. Unless you can tell us what deal they are working towards and

:57:56.:57:58.

how they plan to achieve it and whether in the States were `ccepted,

:57:59.:58:04.

his positive vision is just a pipe dream, just rhetoric. Can I remind

:58:05.:58:09.

him what he said two months ago He said, the negotiating stratdgy has

:58:10.:58:13.

to be properly designed and there has to be serious consultathon

:58:14.:58:17.

before it is done. And this is one of the reasons for taking a little

:58:18.:58:25.

time before triggering article 0. But where is it? Where is the

:58:26.:58:30.

negotiating strategy? What series consultation has taken placd with

:58:31.:58:33.

other member states and in the absence of either, why are the

:58:34.:58:37.

government pushing ahead with article 15? What has happendd since

:58:38.:58:42.

July? What is the plan? Can I mind of the government what the Foreign

:58:43.:58:46.

Affairs Select Committee sahd in July about the previous govdrnment.

:58:47.:58:54.

The considered view not to hnstruct key departments not to plan for the

:58:55.:58:57.

Leave vote, amounted to gross negligence. And what do we have to

:58:58.:59:02.

say therefore about the current government when two months later we

:59:03.:59:05.

are no further forward? All we can say is this, when it comes to

:59:06.:59:10.

planning for Brexit, they h`ve gone from gross negligence to ranking

:59:11.:59:14.

competence. And when we see the warnings to Britain from Japan and

:59:15.:59:18.

others at the G20, when we see investment from companies lhke this

:59:19.:59:22.

and put under threat, it is British workers who will be paying the price

:59:23.:59:28.

for this government's incontinence. This morning, the Japanese

:59:29.:59:31.

ambassador said something that was as honest as it was deadly. He said,

:59:32.:59:38.

the problem that we see is not to have a very well thought out

:59:39.:59:42.

consideration before you st`rt negotiation. Absolutely right, Mr

:59:43.:59:50.

Speaker. The government rushing to start negotiation, yes. Havd they

:59:51.:59:55.

got a well thought out plan for the negotiation? No. So, Mr Spe`ker I

:59:56.:00:01.

must say this. The Secretarx of State has won plaudits in the past

:00:02.:00:05.

for his principled stance around issues such as Parliamentarx

:00:06.:00:08.

sovereignty and he has talkdd about it today, he has talked abott

:00:09.:00:12.

democratic rights, he has t`lked about the rule of law. So hd cannot

:00:13.:00:16.

think that it is right that article 50 should be triggered by royal

:00:17.:00:21.

prerogative. And as the forler Attorney General, his friend and

:00:22.:00:26.

mine, has said, the idea th`t a government could take a dechsion

:00:27.:00:29.

such massive importance without parliamentary approval seems to me

:00:30.:00:34.

to be extremely far-fetched. Well I don't think it is far-fetchdd. I

:00:35.:00:38.

think it's just plain wrong. And I think that if the Secretary of State

:00:39.:00:42.

was still on the backbenches, he would agree. When there is no sound

:00:43.:00:48.

evidence of planning by this government, no detail about the deal

:00:49.:00:52.

they want to strike, no str`tegy for achieving that deal or the reasons

:00:53.:00:55.

for putting it through, Parliament must have more of a say in those

:00:56.:01:00.

issues. We must have more than simply a say, we must have ` vote.

:01:01.:01:09.

Secretary of State. That was it Right. I thank the honourable lady

:01:10.:01:17.

for the welcome. As is very common in the position of people entering

:01:18.:01:22.

cabinet, I have a very largd number of congratulatory e-mails and

:01:23.:01:24.

telegrams. The best one was the shortest. Many correct relations, I

:01:25.:01:30.

now believe and resurrection. - many congratulations. But ldt me

:01:31.:01:38.

deal with the issues she has raised. She, the Labour Party, accuses us of

:01:39.:01:42.

ranking competence. The Labour Party! The Prime Minister, when she

:01:43.:01:51.

was on her trip to China, ddscribed her approach to complex problems.

:01:52.:01:57.

This is certainly one. She described it as collecting the data, `nalyse

:01:58.:02:02.

it, make your judgment, makd your decision and implement it. The

:02:03.:02:05.

Labour Party clearly does it the other way around. Indeed, the

:02:06.:02:11.

Americans have a phrase for the way that they approach these thhngs not

:02:12.:02:16.

looking at the problem, not looking at the issue, not looking at the

:02:17.:02:21.

data, they call it loads, fhre, Amy. That might be appropriate for a

:02:22.:02:27.

firing squad but not for thd national interest. -- lows, fire,

:02:28.:02:36.

aim. She raised the question of the points-based immigration system

:02:37.:02:39.

What the Prime Minister said in China was very clear. What she wants

:02:40.:02:44.

is a results -based immigration system. One that actually ddlivers

:02:45.:02:48.

an outcome the British people voted for. And that is what she whll be

:02:49.:02:56.

delivering. She mentioned the Japanese ambassador. The Japanese

:02:57.:03:01.

ambassador this morning said something to the effect that he had

:03:02.:03:05.

not met a company that did not think Britain was the best place hn Europe

:03:06.:03:09.

to have its business, not one. And that he admired the Prime Mhnister's

:03:10.:03:17.

approach to this negotiation. So I think she should pick a quote little

:03:18.:03:21.

more carefully. Let me come to the central point, if there was a point,

:03:22.:03:30.

in what she had to say. Arthcle 50. Before we entered onto this course,

:03:31.:03:38.

there was a bill that went through this House, the referendum Bill It

:03:39.:03:43.

was voted 46-1 in this Housd. She wrote it for it. -- 6-1. Shd voted

:03:44.:03:56.

for it. If was presented by the minister at the time you sahd that

:03:57.:04:01.

the British people were givdn the decision. Not revise or

:04:02.:04:05.

consultation, and what she hs trying to wrap up in a pseudo- democratic

:04:06.:04:10.

masquerade is the most anti-democratic proposal I have

:04:11.:04:13.

heard for some time. She wants to deny the will of the British people

:04:14.:04:22.

and up with that we will not put. Mr Iain Duncan Smith. Mr Speakdr, can I

:04:23.:04:31.

first start by welcoming my honourable friend's return to the

:04:32.:04:35.

front then. As someone who hs recently left the front bench

:04:36.:04:43.

voluntarily, now welcome his optimistic tone to the idea of the

:04:44.:04:48.

United Kingdom leaving the Duropean Union and forging a new rel`tionship

:04:49.:04:53.

with the world. On the spechfics of the statement, can I just ask him...

:04:54.:05:01.

LAUGHTER. Actually, on the specifics of us

:05:02.:05:07.

leaving the European Union, can I press my honourable friend. We have

:05:08.:05:11.

had speculation as to what the details are in terms of what that

:05:12.:05:14.

means in controlling our borders. Can I ask him when he gets to the

:05:15.:05:19.

dispatch box to confirm to ts that in leaving the European Union, the

:05:20.:05:23.

number one thing that is absolutely not negotiable is that this United

:05:24.:05:28.

Kingdom will take control of its control of its borders and the laws

:05:29.:05:32.

that are relevant to that and that is not negotiate bulk for any other

:05:33.:05:39.

deal? I thank the Right honourable gentleman for his question. I will

:05:40.:05:43.

say two things. The first is that in the referendum that we have just

:05:44.:05:47.

had, the biggest mandate evdr given to a British government, a clear,

:05:48.:05:54.

large part of it was the qudstion of immigration. And the Prime Linister

:05:55.:05:57.

has made it very plain that the current status of immigration cannot

:05:58.:06:03.

go on and we will bring it to an end. Thank you. Can I start by

:06:04.:06:12.

welcoming the Secretary of State to his new position and congratulating

:06:13.:06:16.

him. Can I continue by asking him, is that it? You have had all summer,

:06:17.:06:23.

Secretary of State. It is the mark of an irresponsible governmdnt, just

:06:24.:06:27.

as it was the mark of an irresponsible Leave campaign that we

:06:28.:06:32.

know nothing more about the Fraser Brexit means Brexit. Creating huge

:06:33.:06:37.

levels of uncertainty for universities and, food and drink

:06:38.:06:46.

producers, EU nationals who have made this country their homd. What

:06:47.:06:51.

reassurances can the Secret`ry of State give them, because he has

:06:52.:06:54.

given them nothing in that statement. The actions of otr

:06:55.:06:58.

government stand in stark contrast to those of the Scottish Government

:06:59.:07:02.

to have reached out EU nationals, who have set out clear action,

:07:03.:07:08.

including setting up an expdrt group. ?100 million in economic

:07:09.:07:14.

stimulus and a programme tolorrow for government. The Secretary of

:07:15.:07:17.

State was responsible for a Leave campaign that had no plans. Zilch. A

:07:18.:07:28.

670 pages white paper that the Scottish Government produced ahead

:07:29.:07:33.

of the referendum. The sera Brett having no plans, especially now the

:07:34.:07:36.

Prime Minister is slapping down some of their ideas and? Bussey regret

:07:37.:07:46.

that blank piece of paper? Well I'm tempted to say, is that it? The

:07:47.:07:52.

simple truth is that the honourable gentleman talked about a 670 --

:07:53.:07:59.

talked about a 670 page refdrendum which they lost. They would still

:08:00.:08:04.

lose it today because after the referendum, what did we see, do the

:08:05.:08:09.

Scottish people want another referendum? No, they don't. With a

:08:10.:08:14.

Vote Leave? No, they wouldn't. That's all I have to say. -, would

:08:15.:08:26.

they vote leave? I congratulate the right honourable gentleman not

:08:27.:08:33.

rushing anything. I encourage him to take as long as you can to working

:08:34.:08:37.

out a policy and I look forward to hearing from them again when the

:08:38.:08:41.

government has found somethhng that they agree on that indicate what

:08:42.:08:45.

Brexit actually means. But meanwhile, on a more positive note,

:08:46.:08:51.

I don't recall my right honourable friend taking part in any of the ill

:08:52.:08:55.

informed and sometimes prejtdiced attacks on immigrants and foreigners

:08:56.:09:01.

living and working in this country. So can you confirm that he `grees

:09:02.:09:07.

with me that although some antiforeigner rhetoric may have

:09:08.:09:12.

added a few votes that may have tilted the Leave campaign into

:09:13.:09:18.

majority, he agrees with me that the majority of the public are not

:09:19.:09:21.

hostile to other Europeans living and working in this country so long

:09:22.:09:27.

as they respect our laws and our customs. So will you confirl the

:09:28.:09:32.

government will not needlessly sacrifice our access to a free

:09:33.:09:38.

market of 500 million peopld or our other trade and economic opdrations

:09:39.:09:42.

with our European allies, jtst to demonstrate that we are turning away

:09:43.:09:46.

foreigners from this countrx who employers which to employ to fill

:09:47.:09:50.

shortages of skilled or the unwillingness of English people to

:09:51.:09:53.

fill vacancies in various p`rts of our economy? My right honourable

:09:54.:10:04.

friend and I have debated this matter for nearly 30 years. Let me

:10:05.:10:08.

say this on the question of antiforeigner rhetoric. I agree with

:10:09.:10:12.

him entirely that this sort of unpleasantness that sometimds has

:10:13.:10:16.

arisen out of this is to be wholly condemned. Wholly condemned. And I

:10:17.:10:21.

certainly join him in condelning that rhetoric. The issue, however,

:10:22.:10:29.

which he then moves onto, the question of immigration, I do not

:10:30.:10:32.

think that when people are concerned about immigration, it is necessarily

:10:33.:10:38.

xenophobia. There are econolic, social and other pressures that lead

:10:39.:10:42.

to people being concerned about immigration. Neither do I think that

:10:43.:10:47.

it is a simple trade-off, that an immigration control system which

:10:48.:10:49.

suits our country is necess`rily one that will preclude a good trade

:10:50.:10:54.

relationship with the real brain union. Trade relationships `re

:10:55.:11:00.

beneficial -- with the European Union. Trade relationships `re

:11:01.:11:03.

beneficial to both sides and we should not need a trade off. I agree

:11:04.:11:07.

with his original proposal, but not with his conclusion.

:11:08.:11:13.

The Minister will know that the business of his department will be

:11:14.:11:20.

the most important issue facing our country for decades and it hs hugely

:11:21.:11:26.

important that we get the bdst deal for Britain outside the European

:11:27.:11:30.

Union. Nobody expects him to have worked out all of the answers yet

:11:31.:11:35.

but we do expect him to be `ble to set out the outline of some kind of

:11:36.:11:41.

plan and today we have heard nothing. Let me ask him one specific

:11:42.:11:47.

question, have they looked, for example, at what the home affairs

:11:48.:11:53.

issues will be in the negothations and has he decided whether or not

:11:54.:11:58.

Britain will be staying in Duropol, a decision that will have to be made

:11:59.:12:03.

this year, not in many years to come. Has he decided Will wd be in

:12:04.:12:11.

Europol, yes or no? The honourable lady is an eminent branch -, was an

:12:12.:12:21.

eminent front bench member `nd I take her question seriously. The

:12:22.:12:25.

Justice and home affairs stream is being assessed in that the `s we

:12:26.:12:32.

speak and the aim is to preserve the relationship with the Europdan Union

:12:33.:12:35.

on security matters as best we can. She will remember that last year

:12:36.:12:44.

there was a decision which was made, which laid aside about 100 leasures

:12:45.:12:49.

which we didn't want to be part but kept some including European arrest

:12:50.:12:54.

warrant, controversially as she will remember. We are a cross th`t, of

:12:55.:12:58.

course and we are aiming to maintain that. That is the answer. I warmly

:12:59.:13:06.

congratulate my right honourable friend on his return to the

:13:07.:13:10.

government front bench after an unfortunate hiatus of 20 ye`rs. Is

:13:11.:13:17.

it not absolutely clear Mr Speaker that my right honourable frhend has

:13:18.:13:22.

both the skills and the expdrience for the extremely difficult job that

:13:23.:13:27.

lies ahead and surely the whole house will wish him every stccess as

:13:28.:13:32.

he charts those extremely dhfficult waters.

:13:33.:13:44.

I must admit I didn't hear the question! Flattering as it hs I

:13:45.:13:53.

don't intend to pay a fee for it, either! We learnt more from the

:13:54.:14:04.

Prime Minister's briefing journalists in China of substance

:14:05.:14:08.

than we had in that 15 minute about stakeholders and round tablds. Could

:14:09.:14:13.

he please confirm that the points-based immigration system the

:14:14.:14:19.

cut in VAT on fuel and the ?250 million extra every week for the

:14:20.:14:24.

NHS, the three main promises of the league campaign now lie in tatters.

:14:25.:14:31.

The task of my department is to deliver on the three things. The

:14:32.:14:39.

British people in the referdndum voted for return to Parliamdnt of

:14:40.:14:43.

control of their laws, control of our money and control of our borders

:14:44.:14:49.

and that is what my departmdnt will do. What happens then is down to the

:14:50.:14:53.

government and parliament btt let me deal with one aspect of what he

:14:54.:14:58.

said. The points-based immigration system. What the Prime Minister said

:14:59.:15:04.

in China was very clear. Shd was concerned that I points-basdd system

:15:05.:15:08.

was actually to open ended, that it did not actually put a control on

:15:09.:15:11.

the number of people coming to the UK and therefore she wanted

:15:12.:15:15.

something that sounded like it would be more vigorous, not less. As 7

:15:16.:15:22.

countries have free trade agreements with the EU without accepting any EU

:15:23.:15:27.

control over migration in their countries or accepting any

:15:28.:15:32.

contributions to the EU, wotld my right honourable friend confirm that

:15:33.:15:36.

taking back control cannot be negotiated with the French, Germans

:15:37.:15:40.

and the others. We take back control of those matters and we negotiated

:15:41.:15:45.

they wish over trade and wotld he further confirmed the French and

:15:46.:15:48.

German governments have indhcated not at all that they wish to impose

:15:49.:15:53.

any tariffs on their very profitable trade with us because they don't

:15:54.:15:59.

believe in self harm. That last point goes to the heart of the

:16:00.:16:02.

question because free trade is not something which is a gift from one

:16:03.:16:06.

country to another, it is something which is mutually beneficial and I

:16:07.:16:11.

fully expect that when we come to do our negotiation with the European

:16:12.:16:16.

Union we will see them recognising, France, Germany, all of thel, as a

:16:17.:16:20.

manufacturing surplus is delivered to us, we have a service so plus the

:16:21.:16:24.

other way and I expect we whll both gain from the free trade agreements

:16:25.:16:31.

that comes out of that negotiation. Can I welcome the Secretary of State

:16:32.:16:34.

to his place and also welcoled the statement today and the visht he

:16:35.:16:39.

made recently to Northern Ireland where he met the First Minister and

:16:40.:16:42.

Deputy First Minister and others. Can he give us reassurance that as

:16:43.:16:47.

we seek to move forward and make a success Brexit for the whold United

:16:48.:16:51.

Kingdom, which is what the British people in its entirety have voted

:16:52.:16:56.

for, all parts of it. Can hd reassure me as a result of this

:16:57.:17:02.

national vote and members of the United Kingdom had an equal vote in

:17:03.:17:06.

that and have voted overwhelmingly to come out of the European Union,

:17:07.:17:11.

can the Secretary of State lake it clear that he will work with

:17:12.:17:14.

ministers in Northern Ireland closely not just at ministerial

:17:15.:17:18.

level but that officials within his department will work closelx with

:17:19.:17:22.

officials in the executive office and the Department of the economy

:17:23.:17:26.

and others to ensure we makd a success of this project? I can tell

:17:27.:17:32.

the right honourable gentlelan that is already happening. Offichals in

:17:33.:17:35.

my department and other Whitehall departments are working with

:17:36.:17:40.

officials in the Northern Ireland Office to proceed on what whll be

:17:41.:17:44.

one of the more difficult elements of the negotiation because we do

:17:45.:17:48.

have two deal with the issud of the border and keeping it open `nd not

:17:49.:17:52.

returning to the times of the recent past. I also agree with him in some

:17:53.:18:03.

depth in his statement that this is a national decision. A horrhble

:18:04.:18:07.

British nation, a whole United Kingdom nation that -- and dntire

:18:08.:18:14.

British nation that has dechded this. Whilst we seek to meet and

:18:15.:18:20.

protect the interests of evdry part of the United Kingdom that does not

:18:21.:18:24.

mean that any part of it will have a veto on it, least of all thd

:18:25.:18:34.

partisan reasons. I welcome my right honourable friend to his

:18:35.:18:37.

responsibilities and further welcome his agreement to come beford the

:18:38.:18:40.

Foreign Affairs Committee ndxt week in order to provide further

:18:41.:18:45.

follow-up to this statement. Does he share my assessment that thdre is a

:18:46.:18:51.

key foreign security and defence interest for our 27 European Union

:18:52.:18:56.

partners in finding continuhng engagement with United Kingdom after

:18:57.:19:04.

Brexit? By right honourable friend is right and this is fundamdntal for

:19:05.:19:09.

one of the points I was makhng in the course of my earlier relarks.

:19:10.:19:15.

There is a very strong security foreign affairs, foreign policy

:19:16.:19:19.

environmental, a whole serids of relationships that will continue to

:19:20.:19:23.

apply long after we have left the European Union to the benefht of

:19:24.:19:27.

both European Union and the United Kingdom. Can I welcome warmly the

:19:28.:19:35.

minister to his new position and I know that millions of Labour voters

:19:36.:19:39.

who were supporters who votdd to Leave will be pleased there is

:19:40.:19:42.

someone in this position he genuinely wants to get out of the

:19:43.:19:47.

European Union. Can I ask hhm to confirm that there is a real

:19:48.:19:51.

difference between wanting to be members of the single market and

:19:52.:19:55.

wanting to have access of the single market and some of the Remahn

:19:56.:20:01.

campaigner should remember that She is right and of course the `ccess to

:20:02.:20:06.

the single market is actually not really up for grabs. It is there for

:20:07.:20:11.

everybody. There are many countries actually outside the Europe`n Union

:20:12.:20:15.

that do a better job in the single market than we do, even without a

:20:16.:20:19.

trade agreement so of coursd we want to have access to the singld market,

:20:20.:20:23.

we don't need to be a member of its to do it. Being a member of that has

:20:24.:20:27.

caused some of the problems of sovereignty that this referdndum was

:20:28.:20:37.

driven by. Congratulations to my right honourable friend on his

:20:38.:20:42.

appointment. Will he confirl that the vote to Leave requires the

:20:43.:20:47.

repeal of the European commtnities act and will the government bring in

:20:48.:20:51.

such a Bill as soon as is rdasonably possible? The aspects of thd

:20:52.:21:00.

European Union act, European communities act 1972 that are

:21:01.:21:07.

required to be repealed and those aspects that need to be carried into

:21:08.:21:14.

British law are very import`nt set of issues that have to be ddcided.

:21:15.:21:20.

Once we have got to be proud of deciding that we will come back to

:21:21.:21:24.

the House at the first posshble opportunity. Don't we need lore

:21:25.:21:29.

specifics really from the Sdcretary of State? Don't we need to know the

:21:30.:21:34.

example that we can build those new relationships and not just wait

:21:35.:21:37.

until after the divorce proceedings finished. When this weekend the

:21:38.:21:46.

president of the EU commisshon said he wasn't keen on negotiating trade

:21:47.:21:50.

agreements that leave us in limbo. It is essential we get on whth

:21:51.:21:54.

building knows the relationships now and dealing with the Brexit issue at

:21:55.:21:58.

the same time as making surd that we forge those new relationships? We

:21:59.:22:02.

have do have them together, not one after the other. How will hd secure

:22:03.:22:10.

that? He is right and indeed the suggestion from the commisshon that

:22:11.:22:14.

it is somehow illegal for mx right honourable friend to go and talk to

:22:15.:22:18.

ministers in India, Canada or Australia or where ever he hs going

:22:19.:22:23.

to next is ridiculous. The only thing they can say in legal terms is

:22:24.:22:27.

that we cannot bring into force an agreement until after we le`ve. That

:22:28.:22:31.

is perfectly fair and probable stock that is what the laws of thd

:22:32.:22:35.

European Union are. He can take it as read that that is what wd are

:22:36.:22:39.

doing. We are looking to make sure all that we have the fastest

:22:40.:22:43.

transition to our other opportunities that I mentioned as

:22:44.:22:46.

fast as possible after Brexht concludes. As the same on the other

:22:47.:22:52.

front suggestions we can't talk about the trade arrangement with

:22:53.:22:57.

Europe until Article 50's process is concluded and we are outsidd the

:22:58.:23:01.

European Union, that is nonsense and I have looked carefully at several

:23:02.:23:04.

different versions in different languages of Article 50 and they all

:23:05.:23:11.

refer to the parallel negothations that will take place. He can take it

:23:12.:23:15.

as read that on both the cotnty is right and on both those counts we

:23:16.:23:23.

are pursuing the matter. -- bye both those pounds he is right. M`ny of

:23:24.:23:33.

our industries depend on European regulation. There is some

:23:34.:23:38.

uncertainty about the futurd of this law. Further dealers replied to my

:23:39.:23:41.

honourable friend the chairlan of the select committee, can hd confirm

:23:42.:23:48.

the government is going abott work establishing the entire corpus of

:23:49.:23:53.

European law, establishing `ll the detail and following the path set by

:23:54.:23:56.

countries such as India and Australia when they took on full

:23:57.:24:01.

independence, converted the whole of British law into their national law

:24:02.:24:06.

and in subsequent years went through it, repealed, or improved upon it.

:24:07.:24:12.

Yes, my right honourable frhend makes a good point. It is one of the

:24:13.:24:16.

reasons this process is takhng some time. The legal interactions of the

:24:17.:24:25.

elements of British law and European law are not straightforward. My

:24:26.:24:29.

initial starting position w`s we put them all into law and take ht from

:24:30.:24:32.

there. It doesn't quite work like that. That is why it is takhng a

:24:33.:24:37.

little while but he can be sure that my legal section and my lawxers up

:24:38.:24:44.

on that issue as we speak and will come up with conclusions as quickly

:24:45.:24:47.

as they can and when they do I will tell the House what their conclusion

:24:48.:24:56.

is. Scotland's fishing commtnities were due to receive over 100 million

:24:57.:25:04.

euros between now and 2020 from the EU. The Secretary of State today has

:25:05.:25:08.

committed to support our agricultural committees by

:25:09.:25:11.

guaranteeing that funding whll be matched. Will he make a simhlar

:25:12.:25:16.

commitment to fishing communities to honour funding in the current

:25:17.:25:22.

funding round? Sadly I didn't make the commitment, the Chancellor made

:25:23.:25:29.

the commitment and, well, whth great respect, it isn't up to me to make

:25:30.:25:33.

commitments on behalf of thd Treasury but what I will sax to her

:25:34.:25:36.

is this. He made the commitlent if she reads and we will put a copy of

:25:37.:25:43.

the letter in the library, which he laid out the underpinning of the

:25:44.:25:48.

common agricultural policy `nd structural funds and sciencd fund

:25:49.:25:53.

that he make the point clearly that this was effectively his decision

:25:54.:25:56.

until the Autumn Statement. What I would say to her and I will reflect

:25:57.:26:01.

it to him myself is what shd has said so that before the Auttmn

:26:02.:26:04.

Statement he is aware of her concerns.

:26:05.:26:10.

One of the legitimate concerns of many Remain voters was a fe`r that

:26:11.:26:20.

an unduly long period of uncertainty one negotiations were going on would

:26:21.:26:24.

be damaging for the British economy. Could my honourable friend then

:26:25.:26:29.

confirmed that it would be his piety to complete this process as soon as

:26:30.:26:37.

the, that the -- his priority. That the two years to complete this is an

:26:38.:26:41.

arbitrary maximum and that countries which have left a political union,

:26:42.:26:50.

like Canada, Australia or India have done so in far less than two years.

:26:51.:26:58.

I defer to his knowledge of history on the other countries. What I will

:26:59.:27:02.

say to him is this. The Prile Minister has said that we whll not

:27:03.:27:06.

trigger article 50 until thd New Year. The reason for that is not

:27:07.:27:12.

unnecessary delay or wasting time. It is to make sure we get all the

:27:13.:27:17.

decisions absolutely right. He has heard in the last few minutds about

:27:18.:27:22.

some of the complexity involved in the Acquis Communautaire alone. So

:27:23.:27:26.

what we will do is we will trigger article 50 as soon as is re`sonably

:27:27.:27:30.

possible. I would rather be a month late and get it right than be a

:27:31.:27:35.

month early and get it wrong. We will do so as expeditiously as

:27:36.:27:39.

possible. The Prime Minister has said in clear terms that shd thinks

:27:40.:27:44.

the British people expect us to get on with this. Angela Eagle.

:27:45.:27:51.

Unravelling 40 years of close corporation within the European

:27:52.:28:00.

Union with 27 nation states is, as the right gent is learning, is very

:28:01.:28:05.

complex issue. -- the right honourable gentleman, and as he he

:28:06.:28:13.

give us a view of how that hs going and Kenny givers a few on workers

:28:14.:28:21.

prove rights, equal pay for equal value, weedy keeping that, with the

:28:22.:28:26.

EU laws guaranteeing pension payments if they are deferrdd wages

:28:27.:28:30.

still be recognised by this House? He talks about the sovereignty of

:28:31.:28:35.

Parliament. Will he give thhs Parliament much more of a s`y on the

:28:36.:28:41.

deal that is done? And is hhs government intending to givd the

:28:42.:28:45.

British people a say on the deal when it is done? I will start by

:28:46.:28:50.

saying that we got our instructions from the British people to do this

:28:51.:28:55.

in the first place. But she raises some serious issues. Yes, of course,

:28:56.:29:01.

my views on the importance of Parliamentary accountabilitx have

:29:02.:29:06.

not changed because I have loved four benches forward. I still

:29:07.:29:09.

believe that we should be as open with Parliament as it is possible to

:29:10.:29:14.

be in a negotiation. I am appearing before the Foreign Affairs Select

:29:15.:29:20.

Committee soon and undertakhng - and undertaking I made some time

:29:21.:29:25.

ago. I am doing the same with the House of Lords committee. On the

:29:26.:29:30.

question of employment rights, I would say that a very large

:29:31.:29:34.

component of the people who voted to leave the European Union cotld be

:29:35.:29:39.

characterised as the British industrial working class. And it is

:29:40.:29:44.

no part of my brief to undermine their rights. For a start. Nicky

:29:45.:29:55.

Morgan. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. I welcome the Secretary of St`te to

:29:56.:29:59.

his new role. I think he is right that we need to respect the result

:30:00.:30:03.

of the 23rd of June and he hs also right that people wanted further

:30:04.:30:07.

controls on immigration. Thdy don't feel confident in the immigration

:30:08.:30:15.

Wallasey is that we have had. I don't know -- policies that we have

:30:16.:30:20.

had. But the missing words `re single market. We will be arguing

:30:21.:30:26.

between access to the singld market and the freedom of people to come to

:30:27.:30:30.

this country. Whether the government set out its views on the fundamental

:30:31.:30:34.

point. I start from a disagreement with the honourable lady. The simple

:30:35.:30:41.

truth is, as I said earlier, that the negotiation over free trade with

:30:42.:30:45.

the European Union is something that will be to the benefit of both

:30:46.:30:53.

sides. Beneficial for us and the European countries themselvds. The

:30:54.:30:56.

question of immigration and control of immigration is a very high

:30:57.:31:00.

priority for this government as the Prime Minister has made plahn. So I

:31:01.:31:06.

am afraid that I don't agred with the fundamental tenet of thd

:31:07.:31:10.

question. I don't think that is a natural trade-off. The negotiation

:31:11.:31:14.

has got to be very much on what is in the mutual benefit of thhs

:31:15.:31:23.

country and the European Unhon. 45 Japanese companies operate hn Wales

:31:24.:31:31.

supporting some 6000 jobs m`inly in tech and manufacturing.

:31:32.:31:35.

Manufacturing itself is worth ? billion to the Welsh economx. What

:31:36.:31:39.

assurances can the government give to those companies and the workers

:31:40.:31:45.

that the Welsh economy will not be harmed by Brexit? It is the same

:31:46.:31:52.

assurance that I give to all my factory operations in the UK. The

:31:53.:32:00.

aim of this because the Asi`n - to all manufacturing operations. The

:32:01.:32:03.

aim of this negotiation is to get the best deal that we can. Getting

:32:04.:32:09.

access to the European markdts and also exploiting the best

:32:10.:32:13.

arrangements with the non-Etropean markets. On a manufacturing alone,

:32:14.:32:18.

the quantity of exports that we make to the European Union is exceeded by

:32:19.:32:26.

the exports we make to thosd countries with whom we have no free

:32:27.:32:30.

trade agreement at all. So once we get a free trade agreement, or many

:32:31.:32:34.

of them, as my right honour`ble friend will do, we won't sed

:32:35.:32:44.

downside, we will see opportunities. Oh, yes, a most exotic delicacy in

:32:45.:32:52.

the House, Mr Michael Gove. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I congratulate

:32:53.:32:56.

my friend on his long overdte return to ministerial office. In the seven

:32:57.:33:00.

short weeks since he has bedn in office alongside our new Foreign

:33:01.:33:08.

Secretary and our new Secretary of State for International trade, we

:33:09.:33:10.

have seen a record increase in service industries' growth, in

:33:11.:33:17.

manufacturing industry grows, a 3.3% increase in motor car sales, and

:33:18.:33:24.

also the Speaker of the US Congress, the promise of Australia and the

:33:25.:33:28.

Prime Minister of New Zealand pressing for free trade agrdements

:33:29.:33:32.

with this country while the deputy Chancellor of Germany has

:33:33.:33:35.

acknowledged that the EU- US trade deal is dead in the water. Does that

:33:36.:33:40.

not confirm that the 17 million people who voted to leave the

:33:41.:33:44.

European Union in this country know a darn sight more about economics

:33:45.:33:48.

and the members of the IMF, the OECD, the IFS and all these other

:33:49.:34:02.

experts who have egg on thehr face? My right honourable friend hs not

:34:03.:34:09.

known for understating his case But I would point out that it w`s 1 .5

:34:10.:34:13.

million people that made th`t judgment. And he is right. Luch of

:34:14.:34:18.

the doom and gloom, the fear mongering that went on before the

:34:19.:34:21.

referendum, has been proven wrong. That being said, I would not be

:34:22.:34:33.

quite so unalloyed optimisthc as he is because we are in a world in

:34:34.:34:37.

which there are a lot of economic pressures going on. That is why the

:34:38.:34:42.

meetings in China are going on now. So I think that he makes a point

:34:43.:34:47.

brilliantly, as always. And I agree with the main thrust of it but let's

:34:48.:34:51.

not get too optimistic before we close the deal. The Secretary of

:34:52.:34:59.

State said he wants to have the supremacy of this Parliament. If we

:35:00.:35:06.

are a sovereign, supreme Parliament, why is this Parliament not going to

:35:07.:35:12.

have a decision as to when we trigger article 50? We did, it was

:35:13.:35:21.

called a referendum act and it was passed by 6-1 in this Parli`ment. Mr

:35:22.:35:29.

Dominic Grieve. Thank you. Lay I congratulate my right honourable

:35:30.:35:34.

friend in his abysmal failure to avoid high office over ten xears. It

:35:35.:35:38.

is a great pleasure to see him in his place. May I also reasstre him

:35:39.:35:44.

that as someone who supportdd his Remain campaign, that I see it is my

:35:45.:35:50.

absolute duty to support thd government in giving effect to the

:35:51.:35:54.

public desire to leave the Duropean Union including supporting the

:35:55.:35:59.

limitation of article 50. Mx right honourable friend pointed ott that

:36:00.:36:06.

the matter is legally compldx. It also concerns the Acquis

:36:07.:36:10.

Communautaire, the conferring of private legal rights on indhviduals

:36:11.:36:14.

in this country which have the force of statute. And I have to s`y to my

:36:15.:36:19.

right honourable friend that the idea that those should simply be

:36:20.:36:25.

revoked by our exit, without parliamentary approval, trotbles me

:36:26.:36:32.

very much. And it appears to me to be an abdication of the

:36:33.:36:36.

responsibility of this Housd. I accept that in many cases, they have

:36:37.:36:43.

been created by Henry VIII's bills, the unsatisfactory nature of the EU.

:36:44.:36:47.

But if we cannot scrutinise them before Article 50 is invoked, we

:36:48.:36:54.

will -- we will be allowing the government to dispose of prhvate

:36:55.:36:57.

property rights, including intellectual property, by ddcree.

:36:58.:37:02.

And that troubles me very mtch. I would ask into uses ingenuity to

:37:03.:37:07.

find ways of resolving this dilemma. It's a pleasure to hear frol my

:37:08.:37:11.

right honourable friend long-time friend. But he is over interpreting

:37:12.:37:18.

what I have said. Article 50 is the beginning of this process, ht is not

:37:19.:37:25.

the end. There will be many opportunities for this Housd to

:37:26.:37:30.

scrutinise what we are about to do after article 50 takes Placd. But it

:37:31.:37:35.

is somewhat futile before wd actually start the negotiathons

:37:36.:37:38.

because some of those negothations have a direct impact on the right he

:37:39.:37:42.

is talking about. He can take it from me, I didn't spend all those

:37:43.:37:47.

years on the backbenches defending there is right, to give thel up now.

:37:48.:37:53.

Hilary Benn. Does the Secretary of State agree that it would bd a good

:37:54.:37:59.

idea to find some way of mahntaining a form of cooperation on foreign

:38:00.:38:03.

policy after we leave the Etropean Union because even after exht, we

:38:04.:38:07.

will still be very much part of Europe and there are a great number

:38:08.:38:10.

of challenges around the world on which we will have to continue to

:38:11.:38:16.

work with our European neighbours? The right honourable gentlelan is

:38:17.:38:18.

absolutely right. And the tradition in this country in maintainhng

:38:19.:38:25.

strong effective alliances, generally for good in the world at

:38:26.:38:29.

large is one that I fully expect to continue. Indeed, one aspect of the

:38:30.:38:36.

picture that of the -- of the picture of the future that H see is

:38:37.:38:40.

that Britain will continue to be a good global citizen as it always has

:38:41.:38:46.

been and cooperation on fordign policy is part of that. Cheryl

:38:47.:38:54.

Gillan. May I add my congratulations to my right honourable friend. It is

:38:55.:38:58.

good to see him in his natural habitat at the dispatch box.

:38:59.:39:04.

Businesses in the UK are not just concerned about access to the single

:39:05.:39:06.

market. They are concerned `bout other matters and a unitary patient

:39:07.:39:15.

and the proposed new unitarx patient caught, unified patient caught, has

:39:16.:39:22.

been eagerly anticipated. You currently have two files separate

:39:23.:39:28.

patience in separate countrhes. The UK -- you currently are reqtired to

:39:29.:39:34.

file a separate page ands in separate countries. The UK was due

:39:35.:39:40.

to ratify this agreement. Whll he confirm that the UK will ratify this

:39:41.:39:45.

agreement and we will continue to pay a full part in a British

:39:46.:39:48.

businesses benefit from being able to be part of a unified pathent

:39:49.:39:56.

authority. I will say this to my right honourable friend. For as long

:39:57.:40:00.

as we are a member of the Etropean Union, which will be at least two

:40:01.:40:05.

micro years, we will meet all our obligations and we will takd our

:40:06.:40:07.

responsibilities extremely seriously. Can I ask the Secretary

:40:08.:40:15.

of State to face the House. Sometimes his answers are not fully

:40:16.:40:18.

heard. They are hard by the person he is looking at. All I can do is

:40:19.:40:28.

plead inexperience, Mr Speaker. If not use! Yes! -- if not years. Now

:40:29.:40:38.

congratulate the Secretary of State on his return to the front bench and

:40:39.:40:45.

thank you for his answer to all those Labour constituencies who

:40:46.:40:50.

voted to leave and in making control of our borders the cornerstone of

:40:51.:40:55.

negotiations. Can I take hil back to the question that the member for

:40:56.:41:00.

Woking asks. Given the huge trade surplus Europe has with us, how does

:41:01.:41:04.

he think that power position will play out when we are talking about

:41:05.:41:07.

membership of or access to the single market?

:41:08.:41:12.

Well, it is early days to forecast negotiations but he is right there

:41:13.:41:19.

is a large trade surplus. One that was cited over and over agahn during

:41:20.:41:24.

the cause of the referendum campaign that was the Serb lost in c`rs from

:41:25.:41:30.

Germany alone for example. With the European Union facing econolic

:41:31.:41:33.

difficulties I don't think they will want to create problems for

:41:34.:41:37.

themselves in creating bilateral arrangements that hurt themselves.

:41:38.:41:41.

So, the way I think it will play out is over the course of the pdriod

:41:42.:41:49.

concerned people will start to focus on what their own national hnterest

:41:50.:41:54.

is. My experience of the European Union is that the commission makes a

:41:55.:41:57.

great deal of public statemdnts that at the end of the day it is the

:41:58.:42:01.

national interest of the individual countries that actually dechde the

:42:02.:42:07.

outcome. Can he confirm that since the UK will want to be able to

:42:08.:42:12.

negotiate new trade deals whth the rest of the world and has created a

:42:13.:42:16.

Department for that very purpose that it won't be able to relain a

:42:17.:42:21.

member of the customs union? I'm pleased to be asked a questhon by my

:42:22.:42:25.

right honourable friend. I spent the weekend reading his draft for open

:42:26.:42:30.

Europe, was it? I didn't agree with everything in it but as alw`ys with

:42:31.:42:33.

him what he had to say was insightful and wise. I recolmend

:42:34.:42:41.

people read pages ten, 11 and 1 . To come to put on the customs tnion.

:42:42.:42:48.

The membership of the custols union puts restrictions on varying

:42:49.:42:50.

possible degrees on what yot can do outside. So, we have to look at it

:42:51.:43:01.

carefully. There are a rangd of different types of customs tnion but

:43:02.:43:05.

that is exactly the sort of decision that we will resolve before we

:43:06.:43:14.

trigger Article 50. Last wedk the secretary of the visited Northern

:43:15.:43:17.

Ireland where he met political and business leaders and this wdek he

:43:18.:43:20.

will visit Dublin and in vidw of that, while it is true that the

:43:21.:43:25.

desire for a continued open border in Ireland is shared by manx, does

:43:26.:43:30.

the Secretary of State recognise that maintaining an open border in

:43:31.:43:34.

Ireland will require agreemdnt between Dublin, London, Belfast and

:43:35.:43:40.

Brussels and what steps has he taken to ensure that such an agredment

:43:41.:43:45.

will be possible? Well, it will primarily require a agreement

:43:46.:43:53.

between London, Belfast and Dublin. Brussels will have a say but in some

:43:54.:43:59.

respects, it is down to us, though. All I can say is that when H was in

:44:00.:44:03.

Northern Ireland last week dveryone was absolutely clear, all shdes no

:44:04.:44:07.

political divide or division of any sort on the need for an open border

:44:08.:44:12.

and to avoid a return to thd days of the hard border. There are other

:44:13.:44:17.

open borders that we will bd studying. One of them is Norway -

:44:18.:44:22.

Sweden. It is not identical. There was an open border before wd were

:44:23.:44:26.

members of the European Union. We also have the Common travel area

:44:27.:44:29.

before we were members of the European Union. There are w`ys to

:44:30.:44:32.

deal with this. Some may be technological, some may be political

:44:33.:44:37.

but we can and I think the Hrish government and all the political

:44:38.:44:40.

parties in Belfast are commhtted to making sure it happens. Can I

:44:41.:44:47.

welcome my right honourable friend to his place on the front bdnch and

:44:48.:44:52.

also say that I, too, accept the verdict of the British people, some

:44:53.:44:57.

52% who voted for us to leave the European Union. Yesterday, the

:44:58.:45:01.

Japanese government produce a 1 page document, very unusual, being

:45:02.:45:05.

very bold about their assessment of the grave dangers as they sde it of

:45:06.:45:11.

Brexit. There are many who would argue that if we retain our

:45:12.:45:16.

membership of the single market we can allay their fears, especially in

:45:17.:45:20.

relation to the financial sdrvices sector and the automotive sdctor.

:45:21.:45:25.

With great respect, I think we need some clarity now about wherd we see

:45:26.:45:30.

our membership of the singld market. Is he saying that this government is

:45:31.:45:34.

prepared to abandon that melbership of the single market? What H am

:45:35.:45:39.

saying is this government is looking at every option. The simple truth

:45:40.:45:48.

is, if a requirement of the membership is giving up control of

:45:49.:45:52.

our borders I think that makes it very improbable. What I will also

:45:53.:45:56.

say is this. What we are looking for in the words of the Prime Mhnister

:45:57.:46:00.

is a unique solution. One which matches the fact that we ard one of

:46:01.:46:04.

the largest trading countrids in the world. As a result, also we are a

:46:05.:46:11.

large market for large parts of very important industries in the European

:46:12.:46:14.

Union. I find it difficult to believe that over the coursd of the

:46:15.:46:17.

next two years or so we will not be able to find an outcome that

:46:18.:46:22.

satisfies not only our industries but those industry sponsored by

:46:23.:46:32.

Japan. It was a significant reason why my constituency voted to leave,

:46:33.:46:36.

because of free movement of labour and immigration. Can I ask him

:46:37.:46:40.

whether at the end of this process under no circumstances will free

:46:41.:46:43.

movement of labour be allowdd and he also said in his statement that they

:46:44.:46:48.

will bring the current rate of immigration to an end. What does

:46:49.:46:56.

that mean? I was frankly virtually verbatim quoting the Prime Linister,

:46:57.:47:01.

who said in terms that free movement as it is now cannot go on. Lr

:47:02.:47:10.

Speaker, thank you. My constituency voted more decisively than the

:47:11.:47:14.

country for Brexit and so mx constituents will welcome the Prime

:47:15.:47:18.

Minister and the secretary of the's clear view that we are going to

:47:19.:47:24.

Leave and do it decisively. Businesses in my constituency will

:47:25.:47:28.

also be wanting to get the right result for their exports so I think

:47:29.:47:32.

they will welcome the thoughtful and careful approach set up by the

:47:33.:47:36.

secretary of the and I urge him to continue that careful appro`ch to

:47:37.:47:41.

make sure we get this right, not rush to make decisions as the front

:47:42.:47:44.

bench opposite want us to when we are in danger of not getting the

:47:45.:47:47.

right deal for my constituents and for the country as a whole. I thank

:47:48.:47:55.

him for his question. I prolise I will take no lessons from the Labour

:47:56.:48:04.

Party in terms of organisathon! Can I press the secretary of st`te on

:48:05.:48:09.

the issue raised by the Right Honourable member for Brock stove.

:48:10.:48:15.

Japanese companies employing 14 ,000 people in the UK and the Japanese

:48:16.:48:19.

government said these companies need to maintain tariff free trade,

:48:20.:48:25.

consistency of regulation bdtween the UK and EU, passport rights for

:48:26.:48:30.

my natural services and continued access to EU workers. -- for

:48:31.:48:35.

financial services. To minilise uncertainty for these companies and

:48:36.:48:39.

their point to Leave employdes can he say whether he is going to

:48:40.:48:43.

prioritise those criteria and if not, which will he pursue? ,- to

:48:44.:48:54.

these vital employees I think we have made it clear. Those are

:48:55.:48:59.

issues, passports, access to markets, she names it. They are all

:49:00.:49:05.

issues that are being looked at and evaluated in terms of where the

:49:06.:49:09.

risks are. Take, for exampld, passport ring. I have consulted with

:49:10.:49:17.

the number of people in the city about passports. It is not really a

:49:18.:49:21.

single business and you get different views from each one. Some

:49:22.:49:26.

have different solutions. Wd have two assess all of that before we

:49:27.:49:30.

decide exactly how we organhse the strategy. It is straightforward but

:49:31.:49:40.

it is complex to calculate `nd complex to work out and we will do

:49:41.:49:50.

that. Can I congratulate my right honourable friend on securing his

:49:51.:49:54.

position. I also appreciate what he had to say about taking timd to get

:49:55.:49:58.

this right and building a n`tional consensus, because it is right

:49:59.:50:01.

regardless of how we voted on this we must make a success of this. Can

:50:02.:50:05.

I ask him whether he is confident now that there is cleared

:50:06.:50:09.

alleviation between the intdrests of his department, the Foreign and

:50:10.:50:12.

Commonwealth Office and international trade to make sure

:50:13.:50:15.

there is no conflict of intdrest between them so that you crddit

:50:16.:50:27.

can be given to the success of negotiations as they go on. In terms

:50:28.:50:30.

of parliamentary scrutiny, does he envisaged himself coming before a

:50:31.:50:33.

select committee based on hhs own department or some other

:50:34.:50:36.

arrangement? On that last point I would come it would be dangdrous for

:50:37.:50:41.

any secretary of state whild I was still on the backbenches to try and

:50:42.:50:44.

tell them how to organise their select committees. I would not have

:50:45.:50:47.

accepted it then and I won't do it now. In terms of relationshhps with

:50:48.:50:54.

the Foreign Office and the Department for International trade,

:50:55.:50:59.

we have very clear purposes. Very clear purposes. Mine is support for

:51:00.:51:03.

the Prime Minister, who is the leader of this exercise. Thd

:51:04.:51:08.

Department for International trade has the task of exploiting the

:51:09.:51:14.

enormous opportunity that this actually creates and the Foreign

:51:15.:51:20.

Office as he will know from his own experience has plenty on its plate,

:51:21.:51:25.

too, but will also be sympathetic and supportive in establishhng the

:51:26.:51:30.

relationships and building the alliances that will deliver a

:51:31.:51:33.

positive outcome at the end of these two years. Can I congratulate the

:51:34.:51:42.

Secretary of State on his appointment. In March the Sdcretary

:51:43.:51:46.

of State for Scotland stated our access to the single market of 00

:51:47.:51:50.

million people reduces costs for Scottish businesses by removing

:51:51.:51:56.

barriers to the export markdt. Can I ask him what evaluation that he has

:51:57.:52:02.

made on the impact of exiting the EU to the Scottish economy? It is a

:52:03.:52:08.

pleasure to hear the Honour`ble Lady and my old ally on the subjdct. We

:52:09.:52:13.

haven't yet done our calcul`tion but we will. The simple truth is, she

:52:14.:52:19.

crystallises it well. The sort of task we had to do. That is... The

:52:20.:52:33.

honourable lady is trying to give advice, I suggest she focusds on her

:52:34.:52:41.

own party. That is the sort of thing we have two assess and we whll do

:52:42.:52:48.

carefully. I intend to deliver on our undertaking that we will make

:52:49.:52:53.

sure that this outcome servds all parts of the United Kingdom. I was

:52:54.:52:59.

very grateful that he appeared to accept the principle that when we

:53:00.:53:03.

repeal the European communities act we should try and put EU law into UK

:53:04.:53:08.

law. Given that EU law currdntly applied in the UK does he accept any

:53:09.:53:13.

complexity apparent today would fly whether or not we repeal th`t

:53:14.:53:17.

European communities act since that body applied and will he be careful

:53:18.:53:22.

that paid advisers are not bringing forward complexity in order to

:53:23.:53:31.

extend their fees? I know there has been a revolution in employlent law

:53:32.:53:34.

but I don't think any of my civil servants are paid by the dax. I take

:53:35.:53:43.

his point. We will make surd that we consult widely on that. We will not

:53:44.:53:50.

rely on a single source. Thhs is part of the issue. So many of the

:53:51.:53:54.

legal and technical issues we deal with, we get different sets of

:53:55.:53:57.

advice from different components of the same industry. The same is true

:53:58.:54:01.

here and that is what we ard going to do. We will resolve it properly.

:54:02.:54:12.

I campaigned to Remain but H accept the outcome of the referendtm and I

:54:13.:54:16.

accept the views of the majority of my constituents. He has alw`ys

:54:17.:54:22.

defended from the backbenchds and the front bench parliamentary

:54:23.:54:25.

sovereignty. That is why I `m struggling to understand whx he is

:54:26.:54:30.

seeking to deny members of this house is an opportunity to feed in

:54:31.:54:36.

the views of their constitudnts on the government's negotiating

:54:37.:54:39.

strategy prior to triggering Article 50. This would not be to stop the

:54:40.:54:43.

triggering of Article 50, which I will vote for people, but it will be

:54:44.:54:48.

to shake the negotiating strategy. She is misinterpreting what has been

:54:49.:54:52.

set. We are saying is there is no point in having a vote in the House

:54:53.:54:56.

on Article 50 because all it can do is stop the instruction the British

:54:57.:55:01.

people have already given. That is not to say we are not going to have

:55:02.:55:07.

debates or select committees. That we're not going to have and indeed I

:55:08.:55:11.

am accessible to everybody hn this house from all sides. I do not see

:55:12.:55:17.

that as being a barrier to her bringing forward concerned that her

:55:18.:55:20.

constituents. I encourage hdr to do so as soon as possible. Can I join

:55:21.:55:28.

the chorus welcoming him to his post and welcomed the statement by the

:55:29.:55:30.

Prime Minister about Britain becoming a global leader whdn it

:55:31.:55:34.

comes to free trade. Can I heard him to follow the example of Japan and

:55:35.:55:40.

every other non-European melber of the G20 in engaging in free trade

:55:41.:55:44.

deals and negotiations, which is never to give up national control

:55:45.:55:51.

over immigration or pay a fde. My old friend is exactly right.

:55:52.:56:00.

The most successful countrids in the world in establishing free-trade

:56:01.:56:05.

deals might surprise members of this House, places like Chile or South

:56:06.:56:09.

Korea. And they never, ever give up anything other than the accdss to

:56:10.:56:13.

their own market in exchangd for freed trade deals. They don't give

:56:14.:56:25.

up the money. Can I agree whth the right honourable gentleman, that the

:56:26.:56:28.

British people made a decishon which is one we must respect and H'm

:56:29.:56:32.

certainly not arguing for another referendum. We need to make the best

:56:33.:56:35.

of those negotiations, but xou will no doubt know that there is

:56:36.:56:38.

uncertainty, certainly in the north-east of England about the

:56:39.:56:43.

future of EU structural funds. Can he guarantee me today that those

:56:44.:56:47.

funds once we've come out of the EU will be replaced by the Govdrnment?

:56:48.:56:52.

The first thing is I can't speak for a future Government, that would be

:56:53.:56:57.

beyond the next election. Btt I promised another member on that side

:56:58.:57:02.

of the House that will put hn the library from the Chancellor

:57:03.:57:08.

underwriting many of the structural funds, research grants and the

:57:09.:57:12.

Common agricultural policy funding that is already in place. And if he

:57:13.:57:15.

looks at that carefully, is that he does that than rely on my r`ther

:57:16.:57:30.

inaccurate estimates. Thank you Mr Speaker, I welcome at my right

:57:31.:57:33.

honourable friend to his post. Though the title was never the stuff

:57:34.:57:37.

of my dreams. Nevertheless, it is a new dawn and a new day and we have a

:57:38.:57:42.

job to do. I'd like to asked you, what has he done so far abott the

:57:43.:57:46.

university sector which is struggling with research and

:57:47.:57:49.

development issues and conshdering the free movement of people issues

:57:50.:57:52.

and thinking also buy the shngle market? Firstly, the Chancellor made

:57:53.:58:02.

some arrangements which helped in the current circumstances. The

:58:03.:58:06.

student loan companies made arrangements and I saw univdrsities

:58:07.:58:11.

myself the other day to find out at the concerns they have. I think --

:58:12.:58:16.

Ido Vimy can be accused of not paying proper attention to that

:58:17.:58:19.

sector, we are very candidatures -- conjures it is sensitive in these

:58:20.:58:23.

terms. As for the title my department, I don't know if he was

:58:24.:58:26.

the Wyke that ended up callhng the Department ex, but thank yot very

:58:27.:58:36.

much. 15% of academics are currently EU citizens. We want more. What is

:58:37.:58:39.

being done to give longer-tdrm security? The movement of academics,

:58:40.:58:51.

researchers in particular, hn and out of British universities, and

:58:52.:58:54.

today's entry to the Europe`n Union by a very long margin. Brit`in is a

:58:55.:59:00.

science superpower. We are ` science superpower standing on our own to

:59:01.:59:03.

feet and I will continue after we leave the EU as well as now.

:59:04.:59:12.

Congratulations to my right honourable friend on his

:59:13.:59:17.

appointment. Can I remind hhm that the Remain campaign was

:59:18.:59:20.

characterised by a campaign to spread fear and uncertainty about

:59:21.:59:23.

the future of this country `nd they are still at it!, yes, they still at

:59:24.:59:29.

it. And they're trying to m`ke this process is complicated and

:59:30.:59:32.

protracted as possible to try and frustrate it. Can warn him, that in

:59:33.:59:38.

fact it would be a mistake to try and agree everything about our new

:59:39.:59:41.

relationship with the Europdan Union by the time we leave, because

:59:42.:59:46.

leaving it is but a first step toward establishing a new

:59:47.:59:48.

relationship with our Europdan partners and towards our

:59:49.:59:51.

establishments with a new relationship with the rest of the

:59:52.:59:54.

world. And what the business community and the rest of the

:59:55.:59:58.

country want and the Europe`n Union as well, is speed and certahnty as

:59:59.:00:03.

quickly as possible. I hope he wasn't accusing me of being a member

:00:04.:00:09.

of the Remain group. But ovdr the summer as I was poring over the vast

:00:10.:00:13.

tomes that come with this job, was the tendency to blame everything on

:00:14.:00:19.

Brexit. Everything ranging from bank lay-offs which were nothing to do

:00:20.:00:25.

with it, through to the state of the Italian bond markets. So he's quite

:00:26.:00:28.

right in there. The truth is, we have to get this right. We will do

:00:29.:00:34.

it as expeditiously as posshble We will not delay a single day more

:00:35.:00:38.

than necessary to do the job we have too. But it is a complicated and

:00:39.:00:44.

extensive relationship which we have two untangle and we will do so and

:00:45.:00:52.

in good time. The two months ago I asked the Home Office minister for

:00:53.:00:56.

urgent clarification on the EU nationals of residence in Britain

:00:57.:01:00.

including the 36,000 of thel in Westminster. They are peopld going

:01:01.:01:04.

about their jobs and setting up businesses and they need

:01:05.:01:06.

confirmation of their status. I was told that this was going to be a

:01:07.:01:10.

priority. What did they need confirmation of their status. I was

:01:11.:01:13.

told that this was going to be a priority. What did he mean by that?

:01:14.:01:16.

I will answer that question, but first, let me say that one of my

:01:17.:01:20.

concerns about that argument was that quite a lot of European Union

:01:21.:01:24.

citizens who are in Britain were being unnecessarily frightened.

:01:25.:01:27.

They're in mind that the le`ve to remain is pretty much autom`tic if

:01:28.:01:31.

you got a clean criminal record after five years. And citizdnship

:01:32.:01:36.

after six years. And this process is not going to happen for two years,

:01:37.:01:40.

so if you've been here for free you're in a pretty safe place.

:01:41.:01:45.

However, the Prime Minister and I have both said we want is to provide

:01:46.:01:52.

a generous guarantee to European Union citizens in this country who

:01:53.:01:55.

are already here and I am confident that can be delivered so long as we

:01:56.:02:00.

get proper, civilised treatlent for British citizens abroad who are

:02:01.:02:09.

after all, our responsibility, too. Can I congratulate my right

:02:10.:02:11.

honourable friend on his appointment. There could be nobody

:02:12.:02:17.

better for the job. In order to help the benches opposite who ard badly

:02:18.:02:20.

out of touch with working class voters they once claimed to

:02:21.:02:25.

represent, would he agree that people voted in the referendum to

:02:26.:02:28.

Leap because they wanted to control immigration, they wanted to stop

:02:29.:02:33.

handing over more than ?10 billion a year to the European Union `nd they

:02:34.:02:38.

want the laws to be decided for this country in this House and not

:02:39.:02:41.

Brussels? And will he therefore make a commitment that in his

:02:42.:02:47.

negotiation, the red line is for him will be full control over

:02:48.:02:51.

immigration, no contribution to the EU Budget and that all laws will be

:02:52.:02:56.

decided in this House and non-in the European Union? Somebody on the

:02:57.:03:03.

front bench mutter that you should be all right with that. I shall not

:03:04.:03:14.

say who. I'd emerged from sdcond guessing our negotiating position

:03:15.:03:21.

for the Labour Party and I will dimmer in this case. I will say

:03:22.:03:29.

this, the decision of the British people, I think, was first `nd

:03:30.:03:33.

foremost about control of otr own destiny. Over and above everything

:03:34.:03:36.

else, and that is what we are seeking to return. The Secrdtary of

:03:37.:03:49.

State is immensely... And does not need to imitate a turnstile. Can

:03:50.:03:57.

also welcome the secretary of States to his police and said to hhm that

:03:58.:04:03.

many of us this afternoon w`nt a rather more detail than a fdw

:04:04.:04:08.

reheated sound bites. We know the old slogans about Brexit me`ns

:04:09.:04:11.

Brexit and what we got this afternoon was an essay that waffle

:04:12.:04:17.

means a waffle. Can I commenced in the approach of the Japanesd

:04:18.:04:19.

Government, which is to spend the last few weeks and not just setting

:04:20.:04:25.

up a commission, but as reported its results. I hope that diligence and

:04:26.:04:29.

speed will inspire his work in his department in the months to come. I

:04:30.:04:35.

want to press him on his answer to my right honourable friend. He made

:04:36.:04:42.

a big noise about is our mission to restore Parliamentary. Will he give

:04:43.:04:48.

House a vote on the final p`ckage for Brexit whenever and howdver it

:04:49.:04:55.

is finally negotiated? Firstly, let me say on this issue of det`il, he

:04:56.:05:00.

should know well that is wh`t we are doing is not simply looking at the

:05:01.:05:04.

interest of a limited number of companies and banks, which hs

:05:05.:05:09.

obviously the issue for the Japanese Government, we are looking `t the

:05:10.:05:13.

interests of the whole economy. So we will take just a touch longer and

:05:14.:05:18.

given his prior experience, he should know that and know it well.

:05:19.:05:24.

Now, in terms of the position with respect to Parliamentary, I suspect

:05:25.:05:29.

a great deal of things will be brought before the House during the

:05:30.:05:33.

course of the negotiation and not just at the end and there whll be

:05:34.:05:36.

plenty of opportunity to both speak and vote on it. They are very

:05:37.:05:46.

welcome of appointment of mx right honourable friend and indeed of the

:05:47.:05:52.

Foreign Secretary and international trade Secretary certainly shows the

:05:53.:05:57.

Prime Minister mean is what she says and that Brexit will really happen.

:05:58.:06:01.

But some people on the losing side hope to sabotage the result of the

:06:02.:06:06.

referendum by delaying the process indefinitely. So is my right

:06:07.:06:12.

honourable friend absolutelx confident that come what max, the UK

:06:13.:06:18.

will be outside the European Union well before the date of the next

:06:19.:06:26.

general election? I've said plainly, this will be... We won't trhgger

:06:27.:06:33.

Article 50 before the end of this year, but we will trigger it as

:06:34.:06:38.

expeditiously as possible. The process takes two years. Extending

:06:39.:06:44.

it takes unanimity amongst dvery other member of the European Union.

:06:45.:06:48.

He can make his own judgment on both the probability of that and the

:06:49.:06:59.

arithmetic that delivers. The people of Stoke on Trent voted

:07:00.:07:01.

overwhelmingly to leave the European Union. I will therefore work

:07:02.:07:07.

tirelessly and do everything I can to make sure we give the best

:07:08.:07:13.

efforts and get the best de`l out of that exits. But to help me `nd other

:07:14.:07:16.

members on both sides of thhs House to do that, can we please h`ve

:07:17.:07:22.

firstly in the House of Comlons library, details of what is going

:07:23.:07:25.

on, what is being looked at, timetables, rather than a vdry

:07:26.:07:33.

generalised explanation tod`y? And secondly, can I put an earlx bid in

:07:34.:07:36.

that he metered members of Parliament across the House in North

:07:37.:07:42.

Staffordshire to hear first,hand the issues of great concern to those who

:07:43.:07:49.

voted for exit as well as others in our city and just outside? Two

:07:50.:07:52.

things I would like to say to the honourable gentleman. I takd very

:07:53.:08:02.

seriously... When I told by the British industrial working class

:08:03.:08:05.

voting for Brexit, it was hhs seat I had in mind and I take that very

:08:06.:08:10.

seriously. I take those votds, those people and their lives are very

:08:11.:08:15.

seriously indeed, so I will see his group with the specific aim of

:08:16.:08:20.

identifying their concerns, worries, futures, prospects and opportunities

:08:21.:08:25.

that go with it. To that end, I will also do what I can to make this

:08:26.:08:31.

process as open as possible. It is in negotiation. You don't always

:08:32.:08:36.

play cards with everything turned up, he will understand that.

:08:37.:08:40.

Nevertheless, I will do what I can to make it as open as possible. He

:08:41.:08:46.

said what I said was general, but I've been talking about the process.

:08:47.:08:51.

The department is 180 peopld and has quadrupled since August. Thhs is a

:08:52.:08:54.

fast developing process and I mean it to be open, that's why I've asked

:08:55.:08:58.

for this statement on the fhrst day back so the process can be open for

:08:59.:09:02.

everybody in the House and that is what I will do. Perhaps we could

:09:03.:09:13.

start with him. Chi welcome the Secretary of State to his position,

:09:14.:09:18.

not least because he headed up. . One of the drawbacks of him being

:09:19.:09:22.

made Secretary of State, he can no longer whether green cardig`n. Could

:09:23.:09:29.

he say, he's been as clear `s he can, and this is one of his great

:09:30.:09:32.

advantages, he is straight talking, but cute -- could he give hhs best

:09:33.:09:40.

exhibit -- estimate now of the date he thinks we will leave? We will not

:09:41.:09:44.

hold him to it, but please give us a date. A very good try. I'm sure that

:09:45.:09:54.

in his youth, my honourable friend was a great seducer, but I will not

:09:55.:10:03.

be seduced. I don't think wd want too much information on that front.

:10:04.:10:10.

The right honourable gentlelan has all been great if end and throughout

:10:11.:10:15.

this afternoon, he has emph`sised that it is complex and that

:10:16.:10:20.

trade-offs remain. That's why so incomprehensible to many of us that

:10:21.:10:24.

he does not want the House to have a vote before the path is chosen for

:10:25.:10:29.

how to trigger Article 50. @nd I wonder if he is aware of thd

:10:30.:10:34.

statement made by the former Foreign Secretary that it would be sensible

:10:35.:10:40.

to endorse the start of the negotiations, a defeat for terms of

:10:41.:10:46.

exit after lengthy negotiathons could leave the UK in limbo? I

:10:47.:10:53.

always listen carefully to ly fellow Yorkshireman, but let me sax this to

:10:54.:10:58.

the honourable lady. The re`son for the question of Article 50 not been

:10:59.:11:02.

put to a vote in the Commons is this, I am a great supporter

:11:03.:11:06.

Parliamentary democracy bec`use it's our manifestation of democr`cy under

:11:07.:11:08.

those circumstances. We have 17.5 million direct votes

:11:09.:11:19.

that tells us what to do and I cannot imagine what would h`ppen to

:11:20.:11:24.

this house in the event it overturned 17.5 million. I want this

:11:25.:11:28.

house to make decisions that are effective and bike into the process

:11:29.:11:31.

and that is what will happen. May I stress to him the importance

:11:32.:11:44.

of achieving fairness when ht comes to our immigration policy. Does he

:11:45.:11:49.

agree that whatever criteri` guides the policy, we must have an

:11:50.:11:53.

immigration policy that no longer discriminates against the rdst of

:11:54.:11:56.

the world outside the EU as the present policy dials. I think my

:11:57.:12:02.

honourable friend makes a good point, and he has campaigned on this

:12:03.:12:08.

for a long time. All I can say, bear in mind I am not Home Secretary my

:12:09.:12:13.

job is to bring the power b`ck so that the Home Secretary can exercise

:12:14.:12:18.

it. I am sure she will listdn to what he said and pay attenthon to

:12:19.:12:25.

it. Today the Japanese government provided the British people with

:12:26.:12:29.

detail on what Brexit means. I think most hoped we would hear more this

:12:30.:12:36.

afternoon but what we have heard has been sadly lacking and can be best

:12:37.:12:41.

described as the ladybird gtides to exiting the European Union. Like

:12:42.:12:46.

many honourable members I h`ve spoken with major employers in my

:12:47.:12:51.

constituency, particularly the financial sector in Edinburgh and

:12:52.:12:55.

the universities which are huge employers. They are keen to see a

:12:56.:13:01.

detailed explanation of what Brexit will mean for them, their

:13:02.:13:05.

institutions and their employees. When is the minister going to give

:13:06.:13:09.

this house that sort of a ddtailed explanation? The first point to make

:13:10.:13:16.

is we have been in the EU over 0 years and the links are complicated.

:13:17.:13:23.

The effects on society are complex and some quite expensive to

:13:24.:13:27.

replicate. She will get the information she is asking for but as

:13:28.:13:34.

it comes out, as we generatd it and it will be accurate and useful. A

:13:35.:13:38.

few months will not be a problem for her constituents. May I also join in

:13:39.:13:46.

welcoming the three secretaries of state to the front bench, lhke

:13:47.:13:50.

magnificent dreadnoughts at anchor we wait for them to set sail in

:13:51.:14:01.

forcing the Pax Britannica. Can I bring attention to creative

:14:02.:14:03.

industries that grow three times faster than the economy as ` whole

:14:04.:14:09.

and rely to an extent on EU regulations like the poetic`lly

:14:10.:14:13.

named audiovisual media services director. Can I nudge their

:14:14.:14:18.

interests near to the front of the queue as the Secretary of State

:14:19.:14:24.

takes is out of the EU? I h`ve said that he almost does not need to

:14:25.:14:30.

nudge. I am conscious of thd issues, particularly for the film industry,

:14:31.:14:35.

a mobile industry in capital and personnel terms and bomb we are

:14:36.:14:39.

looking at very soon. It is one of the round tables I spoke about. The

:14:40.:14:45.

Secretary of State is well-placed to address problems faced with EU

:14:46.:14:53.

rules. It sounds from his answers as though he thinks it is posshble that

:14:54.:14:58.

at the end of the negotiation Britain will continue to be a member

:14:59.:15:04.

of the single market. Can hd confirm he thinks that's possible and in

:15:05.:15:07.

what circumstances that would be the outcome? What I said and I `pologise

:15:08.:15:15.

if I misled him, is that I `m seeking to get the best possible

:15:16.:15:20.

access which does not necessarily mean being a member of the single

:15:21.:15:26.

market. There are plenty of countries who have access whthout

:15:27.:15:29.

making concessions we have had two as a member of the EU. It is good to

:15:30.:15:38.

see the three Brexit Cabinet ministers sitting together, working

:15:39.:15:43.

for one nation with one refdrendum and one clear decision, despite the

:15:44.:15:48.

fact that some people including Tony Blair, who offered a referendum and

:15:49.:15:52.

took it away, has said therd is a chance we might still be melbers of

:15:53.:15:57.

the EU. Can he make clear wd are going to be leaving the EU hn its

:15:58.:16:02.

entirety, and when does he dnvisage us getting our hands on the Brexit

:16:03.:16:08.

dividend? The membership money, so we can spend it on our priorities?

:16:09.:16:15.

The answer is yes and at sole point, once we have left. May I welcome the

:16:16.:16:26.

Secretary of State to his position and thank him for one of his early

:16:27.:16:30.

visits to Northern Ireland, but will he ensure he always talks to the

:16:31.:16:33.

official opposition and when listening to them, what I h`ve

:16:34.:16:39.

picked up from businesses is uncertainty that we have talked

:16:40.:16:44.

about, but it is key, particularly for Northern Ireland, we do not slip

:16:45.:16:48.

into recession because we are always on the edge of it. Will he keep that

:16:49.:16:53.

for most tears mind? Very mtch so. One group I met in Northern Ireland

:16:54.:17:00.

was the business advisory group who talked about that. We were there

:17:01.:17:06.

sadly on the day of the Catdrpillar announcement. We will have that

:17:07.:17:17.

clearly front and centre. C`n I congratulate him on his restrrection

:17:18.:17:25.

and he spoke about the valud of free trade with the European Union when

:17:26.:17:29.

we leave, that trade consists of trading goods and services `nd

:17:30.:17:35.

barriers to the trade are t`riff barriers, which have been dhscussed,

:17:36.:17:39.

and nontariff barriers that have received less attention. Wh`t

:17:40.:17:45.

reassurance can he give to businesses in the services sector,

:17:46.:17:49.

which is important and growhng, the trade with the EU which is

:17:50.:17:53.

important, that their interdsts in continuing to have nontariff

:17:54.:18:04.

barriers removed will continue? I thank him for that question, he is

:18:05.:18:09.

the author of the resurrecthon line I cited. I am tempted to usd the

:18:10.:18:17.

comment about Western civilhsation, we are talking about the single

:18:18.:18:21.

market and services, it would be a good idea. It is patchy. Ond of the

:18:22.:18:28.

major parts of this exercisd is to establish what the nontariff

:18:29.:18:31.

barriers are and when they can be resolved, so I take his point on

:18:32.:18:37.

board. It is an area where we have a surplus with Europe and we want to

:18:38.:18:45.

keep that surplus. The industrial working class of Western Barton show

:18:46.:18:49.

voted overwhelmingly to rem`in in the EU. And it voted to become a

:18:50.:18:55.

part of a sovereign independent Scotland. With that I would welcome

:18:56.:19:00.

the Secretary of State to the position. One member posed `n

:19:01.:19:08.

interesting question that rdquires further investigation, in

:19:09.:19:12.

relationship to our relationship with Ireland. It is not just

:19:13.:19:18.

economic, but a social and familial relationship shared across this

:19:19.:19:27.

chamber and is reciprocal. When the Secretary of State meets possibly

:19:28.:19:32.

the Foreign Minister Islands in Dublin and the Taoiseach hilself

:19:33.:19:35.

possibly will he return to the house and make a statement on discussions

:19:36.:19:39.

had in relation not only to the Common travel area, but to be

:19:40.:19:45.

Ireland Act of 1949 so that those relationships can be continted when

:19:46.:19:54.

this part of the UK leads the EU? What I would say is this. When the

:19:55.:19:59.

United Kingdom leaves the Etropean Union, the Common travel arda will

:20:00.:20:06.

continue. Can I welcome my right honourable friend to his post? The

:20:07.:20:13.

fishing industry was once the proud and large industry and envidd around

:20:14.:20:18.

the world, not least in Scotland. Many of my constituents who are

:20:19.:20:22.

fishermen see leaving the ET as an opportunity. Can I ask him to

:20:23.:20:28.

reassure them and other fishermen that this will be high on hhs list

:20:29.:20:32.

of priorities, including potentially taking the 200 mile limit b`ck? One

:20:33.:20:40.

of the groups I have met is the fishermen. The answer to thd

:20:41.:20:51.

question about priorities is yes. What form it takes will depdnd on

:20:52.:20:55.

the interest of our fishermdn because they have interests in other

:20:56.:21:00.

waters. I will not say yes to his second suggestion, but in tdrms of

:21:01.:21:08.

priority, absolutely. Whethdr we were on the side of remain or leave,

:21:09.:21:13.

I think we should now be on the side of doing things in the interests of

:21:14.:21:18.

the British public and in that context the Secretary of St`te

:21:19.:21:21.

mentioned the rights of EU citizens and that he inferred we could arrive

:21:22.:21:27.

at a general settlement. People worry about the future, whatever the

:21:28.:21:31.

legal framework. That these negotiations with member st`tes and

:21:32.:21:37.

the rights of UK citizens there and here is top priority becausd these

:21:38.:21:42.

deserve to be settled as soon as possible. I agree it is a hhgh

:21:43.:21:47.

priority. If I can accelerate it, I will. I welcome my right honourable

:21:48.:21:55.

friend to his post, he is the right man to do this important work. You

:21:56.:22:01.

will appreciate economic illiteracy of the EU, writing very big checks

:22:02.:22:05.

to middle income and developing countries to bail out their flailing

:22:06.:22:09.

economies, on the one hand, and on the other, giving unequal access to

:22:10.:22:19.

European Union markets. That is clearly hampering their ability to

:22:20.:22:22.

be equal partners rather th`n supplicants. How can Britain do

:22:23.:22:32.

better? I take my right honourable friend's point very well. I am

:22:33.:22:38.

loathe to offer free advice to people who are negotiating partners

:22:39.:22:42.

when it is a central part of their own policy to put right. Dods the

:22:43.:22:49.

Secretary of State accept wd will never attain the goal of behng a

:22:50.:22:54.

beacon of free trade unless the British financial services hndustry

:22:55.:22:58.

retains full access to the single market? That is one element of free

:22:59.:23:06.

trade. Of course we want to maintain as much access as is possible and

:23:07.:23:09.

that is what negotiations whll aim at. I welcome him to his pl`ce on

:23:10.:23:17.

the front bench and his Secretary of State colleagues either sidd. We

:23:18.:23:20.

have faith in what they will deliver. Would he agree that not

:23:21.:23:25.

liking the outcome of a democratic vote is no justification to seek to

:23:26.:23:30.

overturn the outcome of a ddmocratic vote, however much sympathy we have

:23:31.:23:37.

for honourable members opposite for their forthcoming democratic vote?

:23:38.:23:41.

This is an opportunity, is ht time to put the arguments of the

:23:42.:23:44.

referendum behind us and back Britain's government in getting a

:23:45.:23:48.

good deal? We are changing the direction of our country, this is

:23:49.:23:53.

Britain's negotiation and this house should unite behind them. As always,

:23:54.:23:59.

my honourable friend speaks for England. Greater Lincolnshire and

:24:00.:24:08.

Peterborough FSB briefed th`t confidence of their members is at a

:24:09.:24:14.

four-year low and they want to make Brexit work and are keen to work

:24:15.:24:18.

with government to bring it about and are keen to retain access to the

:24:19.:24:23.

single market and to retain ease of access to European labour. Lost

:24:24.:24:31.

they want certainty. What road map to certainty can he give thdse

:24:32.:24:37.

members? Let me deal with the issue of the immediate uncertaintx a loss

:24:38.:24:46.

of confidence. There was a downward dipping confidence after Brdxit

:24:47.:24:48.

partly because of the terrible things that were said to happen but

:24:49.:24:55.

they have not happened. In terms of access to markets, I am on their

:24:56.:24:59.

side. That is what we will seek to do, but we have to take on board

:25:00.:25:06.

that the level of immigration into the UK from the EU has causdd social

:25:07.:25:11.

issues, maybe economic issuds for low-paid workers, and we have to

:25:12.:25:15.

balance that against corpor`te interest and that is what wd will

:25:16.:25:22.

try to do. As someone who h`s supported Brexit, can I congratulate

:25:23.:25:31.

and offer success to the crdation of the Department the Secretarx of

:25:32.:25:35.

State heads. Can I ask him when he hopes to close down the Dep`rtment

:25:36.:25:39.

and returned the function of the Minister for Europe to the Foreign

:25:40.:25:48.

Office? My desire to return to the backbenches is overwhelming and so

:25:49.:25:49.

it will be as soon as I can. The Secretary of State will be well

:25:50.:26:03.

aware of the tampon tax which makes the subject of the EU oblig`tions

:26:04.:26:07.

and not just hours of EU melbership. Can you sell the House whether any

:26:08.:26:11.

exit agreement with the EU could include requirements on the UK to

:26:12.:26:15.

set a minimum rates of VAT dven after our membership ends and in

:26:16.:26:19.

that scenario, can he give ts an absolute guarantee that we will be

:26:20.:26:22.

allowed to zero rate women's sanitary products? What she just

:26:23.:26:29.

described was one of the many reasons for wanting to leavd the

:26:30.:26:33.

European Union. Being able to set your own tax rate is eight

:26:34.:26:37.

fundamental of an independent country and that's what we want to

:26:38.:26:47.

be once more. I warmly welcome my right honourable friend and the

:26:48.:26:52.

front bench team making a stccess Brexit. Can the Secretary of State

:26:53.:26:56.

said our discussions he's h`d the EU trade commissioner who has taken a

:26:57.:27:00.

much tougher line on Articld 50 We all agree it is in everyone's

:27:01.:27:04.

interest to get a negotiations before we exit, but in a recent

:27:05.:27:07.

interview, she did indicate that isn't the case. -- or did not

:27:08.:27:19.

indicate. European law in this case means not putting a free-tr`de

:27:20.:27:24.

agreement into effect until we leave. In terms of other discussions

:27:25.:27:30.

and negotiations, commissioners have tried to say we can't speak to other

:27:31.:27:35.

members of the European Union, which is sort of silly. We are an ongoing

:27:36.:27:40.

member of the European Union, take our responsibilities seriously and

:27:41.:27:42.

is implausible that in our conversations with them we will not

:27:43.:27:48.

talk about what is coming ndxt. I am surprised by the right honotrable

:27:49.:27:54.

gentleman's assertion about the mandate for Brexit is overwhelming.

:27:55.:27:58.

Can I remind him that 16 and 17-year-olds whose future as

:27:59.:28:01.

European citizens will be most affected by this decision wdre

:28:02.:28:08.

denied a vote and to as, whhle he is speaking with stakeholders, what

:28:09.:28:12.

steps will it take to ensurd these young people are now given ` voice

:28:13.:28:21.

and a say in their future? One of the aspects of democracy is that one

:28:22.:28:29.

side wins and one side does not win. And there was a sort of punt from

:28:30.:28:35.

the Labour front bench, the young people, that is certainly not true.

:28:36.:28:40.

What we'll see in the futurd is a bigger, great and more glorhous

:28:41.:28:42.

country than we have alreadx answered because he doesn't

:28:43.:28:45.

understand that, does not mdan they lost. To come back to her point of

:28:46.:28:51.

course, they may feel at thhs point that their views did not win the

:28:52.:28:57.

day. That is part of the outcome of a democracy and it is our job to

:28:58.:29:00.

make sure they gain from thd outcome of that decision. Thank you, Mr

:29:01.:29:10.

Speaker. In warmly welcoming my right honourable friend to his very

:29:11.:29:12.

well deserved position, can I implore him to have early

:29:13.:29:20.

discussions with our Home Sdcretary and the Secretary of State for

:29:21.:29:23.

Transport and others to enstre that the words European Union ard removed

:29:24.:29:28.

at the earliest possible molent from UK passports and driving licences? I

:29:29.:29:34.

will draw his comments to their attention. I have to say th`t that

:29:35.:29:43.

statement was 15 minutes of meaningless waffle from cludless

:29:44.:29:49.

Tory Government to have absolutely no plan for this accidental Brexit.

:29:50.:29:54.

There's nobody just dictating to the people of Scotland when it comes to

:29:55.:29:59.

Brexit. 62% of the Scottish people voted to Remain and every shngle one

:30:00.:30:07.

of the authorities. How shotld their views now be progressed? And a

:30:08.:30:16.

million Scots voted to Leavd and nobody, despite the partisan use of

:30:17.:30:21.

this argument by the Scottish Nationalists party for their own

:30:22.:30:29.

interests, despite that, thd simple truth is that the Scottish view on

:30:30.:30:32.

whether they should have independence or not has not changed

:30:33.:30:38.

by one jot. And that is I think an answer to the honourable gentleman's

:30:39.:30:49.

waffle. Congratulations on the resurrection after 18 years. It

:30:50.:30:56.

gives the rest of us hope. Ht was on blatant lie linkage that

:30:57.:30:58.

deliberately Leave result, ht will be Labour heartlands in the north

:30:59.:31:03.

and the Midlands. And my right honourable friend nose at those

:31:04.:31:06.

heartlands well. Does he thhnk it would have been helpful if the

:31:07.:31:09.

official Labour Party spokesman if there is such a thing, had lade

:31:10.:31:13.

absolutely clear that the pdople have spoken and this House, all

:31:14.:31:17.

members of the Conservative Party and the Labour Party are gohng to

:31:18.:31:23.

deliver this Democrat result? Sadly, I'm not holding my breath for that

:31:24.:31:28.

outcome. But I will say this party, the Conservatives are the only party

:31:29.:31:31.

willing to deliver on the pdople's decision. The Secretary of State's

:31:32.:31:40.

right honourable friend, thd Foreign Secretary, said Jonah referdndum

:31:41.:31:43.

campaign that those in the big fields should tend to the sheep and

:31:44.:31:47.

those with the hill farms should do the butterflies. It would m`ke much

:31:48.:31:51.

more sense, but it's only possible if we leave the EU. What

:31:52.:31:55.

reassurances can he give to the farming communities of Wales that

:31:56.:32:00.

subsidies will continue to be given to the farming areas so are not

:32:01.:32:03.

turned into simply a big butterfly park? The first thing that happened

:32:04.:32:17.

was that the Chancellor unddrwrote the CAP, which was good for those

:32:18.:32:21.

people, and in those discussions with respect to both the departure

:32:22.:32:26.

from the European Union, thd subsequent agricultural polhcy and

:32:27.:32:29.

indeed subsequent trade polhcy, we are having discussions about exactly

:32:30.:32:32.

those things and have very luch in mind what she said. Speaker, I

:32:33.:32:41.

totally support the Governmdnt are not rushing to triggering Article 50

:32:42.:32:45.

and welcome the comments by the Secretary of State that he knows how

:32:46.:32:48.

important are the single market is, but for our own businesses `nd for

:32:49.:32:53.

inward investors from growth markets like Asia. Does my right honourable

:32:54.:32:57.

friend green just as cruellx in the European Union but have varhous opt

:32:58.:33:02.

outs, so in due course we should be out but have the ability to continue

:33:03.:33:06.

arrangements that work well for all sides? For example, the European

:33:07.:33:12.

health insurance, which silly British families benefit from. The

:33:13.:33:19.

first premise of this is returning power to the control of this

:33:20.:33:23.

Government and this Parliamdnt. How they deploy that power is entirely

:33:24.:33:26.

up to them and I would think any sensible Government would bd

:33:27.:33:31.

involved in mutually beneficial activity. After all, Israel and

:33:32.:33:38.

subscribes to some of the Etropean research operations, and it's

:33:39.:33:43.

nowhere near a member of thd European Union. So I think that in

:33:44.:33:52.

those terms, his point is wdll made. Would the Secretary of Statd repeat

:33:53.:33:55.

for the House they guaranted he gave in Northern Ireland last wedk that

:33:56.:34:01.

his Government will not seek to impose a hard border that would

:34:02.:34:05.

restrict the free movement of people and labour between Northern Ireland

:34:06.:34:08.

and the Irish Republic? And will the extent such a guarantee to Travolta

:34:09.:34:25.

and Spain in that situation? I repeat the statement I made in

:34:26.:34:29.

Northern Ireland last week. The soft border all the open border dxisted

:34:30.:34:36.

before either as were members of the European union with different VAT

:34:37.:34:40.

rate income tax. It seems to me given modern technology we can do

:34:41.:34:44.

the same and design an immigration system which copes with it. I can

:34:45.:34:49.

certainly reiterate what I said to Northern Ireland last week hn front

:34:50.:34:56.

of the House. I warmly welcome at my right honourable friend to his new

:34:57.:34:59.

post and for his statement, the first of what will no doubt be many

:35:00.:35:05.

to this House. On the 22nd of June, the day before the referendtm, the

:35:06.:35:13.

FTSE 100 closed at 6002 and in today it is over 6800 up. Does my right

:35:14.:35:19.

honourable friend agree that this tells us all we need to know about

:35:20.:35:25.

investor confidence in our future, that will we be better off ,- that

:35:26.:35:30.

we will be better off outside the European Union? What it certainly

:35:31.:35:34.

tells us is that the business community is not as afraid of this

:35:35.:35:39.

great new opportunity we face as was claimed before the referendtm. I

:35:40.:35:44.

don't want to disappear into rerunning arguments of the league

:35:45.:35:52.

campaign though. Market movdments in stock markets are volatile `nd

:35:53.:35:58.

small. Often, they reversed themselves. What doesn't reverse is

:35:59.:36:03.

large inward investments and in the year in which our party comlitted to

:36:04.:36:07.

a referendum, we have the l`rgest inward investment in our history. --

:36:08.:36:15.

had the largest. Khai has the Secretary of State that is clearly

:36:16.:36:18.

referencing the Leave camping, because his statement was 14 minutes

:36:19.:36:23.

of waffling and sound bites. For national consensus, that is

:36:24.:36:30.

completely at odds with a f`ct that 62% of the electorate in Scotland

:36:31.:36:35.

voted to Remain. This does not bode well -- well for meaningful input

:36:36.:36:38.

from the Scottish Government. Kenny also confirm the claim made during

:36:39.:36:44.

the campaign by his honourable member for North Somerset that

:36:45.:36:46.

Scotland was suddenly have control of a whole new raft of powers

:36:47.:36:51.

including immigration, or w`s that just PC nonsense? I don't think my

:36:52.:36:58.

right honourable friend was referring to immigration, btt rather

:36:59.:37:02.

to fishing, I suspect and what will certainly be the case is we will be

:37:03.:37:10.

taking back control of UK fhshing. Can I also congratulate my right

:37:11.:37:12.

honourable friend and Parli`mentary neighbour on his appointment, an

:37:13.:37:19.

inspired choice. While he h`s been in the role these few weeks, has he

:37:20.:37:25.

had an opportunity or seen `ny evidence of contingency planning

:37:26.:37:27.

across any department in Whhtehall prior to the referendum that the

:37:28.:37:35.

British public may potentially have voted to leave the European Union?

:37:36.:37:38.

It strikes me that in a two horse race, it might have been and idea to

:37:39.:37:44.

look at this possibility. Furthermore, given that will have to

:37:45.:37:49.

look at the different laws `nd 12,000 plus EU regulations that will

:37:50.:37:52.

affect our lives -- that affect our lives, what progress are thdy making

:37:53.:37:57.

in ensuring we recruit the brightest minds to do this properly? Says my

:37:58.:38:04.

department didn't exist before I arrived, it's really rather harder

:38:05.:38:06.

to find documents that relate anything beforehand. There were

:38:07.:38:11.

certainly planning done on the financial side to deal with any

:38:12.:38:15.

financial turnarounds, becatse the bank and the Treasury undertook

:38:16.:38:19.

certain measures. With respdct to the Department itself, I brtshed

:38:20.:38:26.

across it, but it says something that the Department quadrupled in

:38:27.:38:31.

size in August and he may rdmember what Whitehall is like in Atgust. We

:38:32.:38:36.

are not short of applicants and we do have the brightest and bdst to

:38:37.:38:40.

help us and us not just my department, but also in nathonal

:38:41.:38:44.

trade as well, so I'm confident about that. In his statement, the

:38:45.:38:53.

Secretary of State who are welcome to his post welcomed -- reaffirmed

:38:54.:38:56.

the promise of the Chancellor that all structural and investment

:38:57.:39:00.

projects signed before the @utumn Statement will be underwritten by

:39:01.:39:03.

the Treasury as we leave. Btt we've a quandary of the people of greater

:39:04.:39:08.

Manchester, because we've bden allocated until 2020, 300 ?22

:39:09.:39:12.

million in European structural investment funds, but ?159 lillion

:39:13.:39:20.

of those have not yet been contracted. They're currently held

:39:21.:39:23.

up in Whitehall departments, predominantly in the Departlent for

:39:24.:39:28.

Work and Pensions. Can he ensure that the people of greater

:39:29.:39:34.

Manchester get all ?322 million that's been allocated to it by the

:39:35.:39:38.

European Union and not the lesser amount that's already been `pproved

:39:39.:39:43.

by Government? What I will do is draw the request to the attdntion of

:39:44.:39:48.

the Chancellor. I congratul`te my right honourable friend is

:39:49.:39:50.

well-deserved appointment. 61% of the people of Kettering votdd to

:39:51.:39:53.

Leave and they want to make sure he's the tools to finish thd job and

:39:54.:39:58.

following a question from otr right honourable friend about staff

:39:59.:40:01.

members come he says he's 180 of them at the moment, how manx does he

:40:02.:40:06.

need and given that his dep`rtment no longer exist in two years, what

:40:07.:40:11.

incentive is there for the brightest best civil servants who havd

:40:12.:40:15.

long-term civil service carders in mind to join his department? And

:40:16.:40:21.

what incentives are there to attract people into his department from the

:40:22.:40:22.

private sector? We barely need an incentive, they

:40:23.:40:32.

want to be at the centre of the most important, historic change hn what

:40:33.:40:36.

is happening in the last decade or two or three. I don't think that is

:40:37.:40:41.

a problem. Arrangements are being made precisely because we dhsappear

:40:42.:40:47.

when the processes over to dnsure continuity and to ensure go

:40:48.:40:52.

seamlessly back into the Whhtehall system, although I suspect `t the

:40:53.:40:55.

end there will be more bids for them than that. Membership of thd EU

:40:56.:41:02.

allows young people in Scotland freedom to live, learn and work in

:41:03.:41:05.

Europe and they voted overwhelmingly to remain. What assurances can he

:41:06.:41:13.

give to young people that these benefits and freedoms will be

:41:14.:41:19.

retained after Brexit? It is a good question and I think I would expect

:41:20.:41:25.

us to ensure that we get at least as least as good as those therd now.

:41:26.:41:31.

One thing that is important in the European Union and in Britahn in

:41:32.:41:36.

particular is we are a science superpower and have a fabulous

:41:37.:41:39.

education system with some of the best universities in the world. We

:41:40.:41:42.

have some of the best students in the world and we will reflect that

:41:43.:41:51.

the outcome. I would like to congratulate my friend on hhs

:41:52.:41:55.

position. Speaking as a parliamentarian who has not seen my

:41:56.:41:59.

honourable friend in action it is an absolute pleasure to watch. I would

:42:00.:42:05.

like my honourable friend to look into VAT. It was purchased tax

:42:06.:42:11.

before 1973. Has fluctuated over the years. There are small businesses

:42:12.:42:19.

that need a taper relief for VAT because when they hit the threshold

:42:20.:42:26.

it can kill them off. I know, I was a small businessmen, I succdeded

:42:27.:42:29.

through it but it was a problem Will he look into this for small

:42:30.:42:35.

people of the UK. I will brhng the attention of the Treasury to it and

:42:36.:42:39.

ensure we will think about ht through this process. Can I

:42:40.:42:44.

congratulate my Parliamentary neighbour on his appointment. The

:42:45.:42:49.

Humber S3 is fast becoming the energy estuary with Siemens

:42:50.:42:53.

investing in Hull with the potential to export to the single market and

:42:54.:42:57.

so trade deals with Australha will not cut it in Hull. I wondered if he

:42:58.:43:03.

would agree to meet with a delegation from the Humber to ensure

:43:04.:43:08.

the green energy industry bdnefits from the huge and exciting

:43:09.:43:11.

opportunities the minister has talked about. How could I s`y no to

:43:12.:43:20.

meet a delegation from the Humber. What I will say is Siemens was a

:43:21.:43:24.

company that said they would continue investment in the TK,

:43:25.:43:28.

something of a change from before the referendum. Yes, of course. I

:43:29.:43:34.

was delighted to hear him s`y he had begun the huge task of going sector

:43:35.:43:40.

by sector to assess challenges many parts of the British economx will

:43:41.:43:45.

face. Can I ask him to add ` second column to the spreadsheet for

:43:46.:43:50.

opportunities in those sectors may have and may arrive from Brdxit We

:43:51.:43:55.

know from every industry and business we have worked in there

:43:56.:43:58.

will be areas of promise from leaving particularly in terls of

:43:59.:44:03.

getting away from onerous Etropean regulations that hold back British

:44:04.:44:11.

economic sectors. Will he create a parallel process of assessing

:44:12.:44:14.

regulations so that we can be in a good position when we leave? It is a

:44:15.:44:21.

good point and we are on it already. The opportunity side of the

:44:22.:44:24.

spreadsheet is integral to the process and some have reported back.

:44:25.:44:31.

We are challenging something is coming back because you get a degree

:44:32.:44:36.

of special pleading and so ht takes a little longer than just asking the

:44:37.:44:43.

question but we are doing it. In June, vote to leave issued ` letter

:44:44.:44:48.

co-signed by the Foreign Secretary and it was unequivocal that levels

:44:49.:44:51.

of funding in constituencies like mine, that currently receivd would

:44:52.:44:57.

continue post-Brexit. Will the Secretary of State repeat that

:44:58.:45:00.

guaranteed today all was thd letter worthless? I said I am putthng in

:45:01.:45:07.

the library the letter from the Chancellor on structural funds.

:45:08.:45:14.

Exactly that. Can I welcome my right honourable friend to his pl`ce. One

:45:15.:45:18.

of the greatest opportunitids for cornball presented by leaving is

:45:19.:45:23.

reclaiming the UK's territorial fishing waters. Will he comlit to

:45:24.:45:29.

not use this natural resource as a bargaining chip and embrace the

:45:30.:45:33.

opportunities it could deliver to coastal communities around the UK? I

:45:34.:45:40.

have never had so many attelpts to seduce me into making promises as I

:45:41.:45:46.

have today. I said to his honourable friend already this would bd one of

:45:47.:45:53.

the gains from the EU negothation. There may be internal negothations

:45:54.:45:56.

and if he speaks to his own fishermen he will see what H mean.

:45:57.:46:05.

In Renfrew show we voted 2-0 to remain. I wrote to offer support and

:46:06.:46:10.

visited institutions in the summer recess. They are desperate for

:46:11.:46:16.

information. Shamefully durhng the statement he offered nothing but

:46:17.:46:21.

doubletalk and prevarication and when can businesses across

:46:22.:46:26.

Renfrewshire expect more detail and what the government plans to spend

:46:27.:46:32.

of the 350 million per week? I repeat what I have said. Thd

:46:33.:46:36.

information will be available as we work through the process. If he

:46:37.:46:42.

imagine this is a Lego block process that anybody can do it without

:46:43.:46:45.

thinking about it, I suggest he looks again. In welcoming the

:46:46.:46:52.

Secretary of State to his position could I ask him if he appreciates

:46:53.:46:58.

the appetite of people in Scotland for a further independence

:46:59.:47:00.

referendum and the way they might vote in such a referendum, hn large

:47:01.:47:05.

part depends upon the response he and his government make to their

:47:06.:47:11.

decision to reject by a large from the EU. We were promised in 201

:47:12.:47:17.

that Scotland would be respdcted within this United Kingdom. Can I

:47:18.:47:23.

ask when proposals emerged that offer the prospect of different

:47:24.:47:26.

arrangements between Scotland and the EU, when he listened to them and

:47:27.:47:30.

consider them in good faith, or rejects them? Before I answdr, may I

:47:31.:47:37.

apologise for the late return of his letter that he wrote to me darlier

:47:38.:47:40.

in the summer but we tried to give him some facts. With respect to the

:47:41.:47:51.

discussions with the devolvdd administration, and others, I would

:47:52.:47:55.

say there is a joint ministdrial committee of which the First

:47:56.:47:59.

Minister has been offered a place, or her nominee, which ever she

:48:00.:48:04.

wishes. That will be the process by which we look at all propos`ls. The

:48:05.:48:09.

Prime Minister said we will look at all proposals. The one he stggests,

:48:10.:48:14.

I cannot see how it would work. But we will look at it. I have to say up

:48:15.:48:21.

front, as I said to the First Minister, I cannot see how that can

:48:22.:48:27.

be made to work. I congratulate the right honourable gentleman on his

:48:28.:48:31.

appointment. On immigration control, can he indicate whether it hs the

:48:32.:48:36.

position of the government to continue to differentiate in future

:48:37.:48:42.

between entry restrictions for citizens of the EU and for those

:48:43.:48:49.

from outside the EU? All I can say is this, my task is to get the

:48:50.:48:55.

control of that process back to the government and to Parliament. It is

:48:56.:48:59.

for Parliament to decide how they use it. The simple truth is I expect

:49:00.:49:05.

us to see a more evenhanded policy than we have now, but we must wait

:49:06.:49:12.

until the negotiation is colplete. It is clear on these benches the

:49:13.:49:17.

government's handling of thd withdrawal from the EU has been

:49:18.:49:22.

nothing short of a disgrace and the lack of leadership shown by the new

:49:23.:49:26.

Prime Minister has done nothing to quell the fears of UK citizdns and

:49:27.:49:36.

EU nationals. Does he agree the only person who has shown leadership and

:49:37.:49:40.

forward thinking on Brexit hs the First Minister of Scotland, Nicola

:49:41.:49:46.

Sturgeon? What I thought shd was going to say was Ruth Davison, who

:49:47.:49:50.

won the popularity contest this time around. I have to say something else

:49:51.:49:58.

about the Scottish Nationalhst approach. Our new Prime Minhster,

:49:59.:50:02.

before she did her reshuffld, went to Scotland to see the First

:50:03.:50:07.

Minister. How much more respect you can pay another politician than that

:50:08.:50:10.

I do not know and what grathtude do we get? Walk we have just hdard I

:50:11.:50:20.

will let the house in on a secret. In 2008, when the Secretary of State

:50:21.:50:25.

resigned over civil libertids I sent him an e-mail as a young 22,year-old

:50:26.:50:30.

wishing him the best in that election. I have been an adlirer

:50:31.:50:35.

despite our differences since then. But I am disappointed with the

:50:36.:50:38.

weakness in the statement ghven today. My constituency voted over

:50:39.:50:44.

70% to remain, the highest hn Glasgow. They will expect md to get

:50:45.:50:50.

the best deal in the circumstances we are in and with that in lind can

:50:51.:50:56.

he outline what powers he envisages the Scottish Parliament will gain as

:50:57.:51:01.

a result of Brexit and when he expects those powers to be

:51:02.:51:07.

implemented? It depends on what is agreed in the negotiations. The

:51:08.:51:11.

second thing I will say is this The undertaking given was to do

:51:12.:51:19.

everything possible to protdct all interests of all parts of the UK and

:51:20.:51:25.

Scotland of course at the front rank of those people. That is wh`t will

:51:26.:51:31.

happen. The issue is not about giving powers to politicians, but

:51:32.:51:33.

looking after the interests of the people. That is what will h`ppen. We

:51:34.:51:40.

will look after the interests of everybody in the UK, includhng

:51:41.:51:46.

Scotland. I thank the Secretary of State. The opposition front bench

:51:47.:51:54.

spokespersons and all 85 backbenchers who have the

:51:55.:51:57.

opportunity to question the right honourable gentleman. I am sure

:51:58.:52:01.

there will be other instalmdnts to follow. Order. Statement, the

:52:02.:52:10.

Secretary of State for health. Secretary Jeremy Hunt. Thank you, Mr

:52:11.:52:19.

Speaker. I regret to inform the house last week the British Medical

:52:20.:52:23.

Association announced they were initiating further rounds of

:52:24.:52:26.

industrial action over the junior doctors contract, which involves a

:52:27.:52:31.

serious of week-long all-out strikes between now and Christmas, scheduled

:52:32.:52:35.

to start next Monday, althotgh this afternoon the BMA have delaxed the

:52:36.:52:40.

first strike until 5th of October. The news delaying the first strike

:52:41.:52:46.

is welcome. We must not let it obscure the fact the remainhng

:52:47.:52:50.

planned industrial action is unprecedented in length and

:52:51.:52:56.

severity. And it will be dalaging for patients, some of whom will

:52:57.:52:59.

already have had operations cancelled. Any NHS organisations,

:53:00.:53:08.

including NHS England and NHS Improvement, had expressed concern

:53:09.:53:12.

about the impact on patient safety. This morning the General medical

:53:13.:53:17.

Council published advice to doctors on the strike action. While

:53:18.:53:22.

recognising a doctor's legal right to take action, they urged `ll

:53:23.:53:28.

doctors in training to conshder the implications for patients, saying

:53:29.:53:32.

given the scale and repeated nature of what is proposed, we belheve that

:53:33.:53:36.

despite everyone's best efforts patients will suffer. Others have

:53:37.:53:43.

questioned whether escalating strikes is a proportionate or

:53:44.:53:46.

reasonable response to a contract that the BMA junior doctors leader

:53:47.:53:53.

personally negotiated and stpported in Maine. She said then that the new

:53:54.:54:00.

contract was safer for our patients, safer for our junior doctors and

:54:01.:54:06.

also fair and she said with respect to junior doctors the contr`ct

:54:07.:54:10.

values their time and values them as part of the workforce, will reduce

:54:11.:54:15.

the problem of recruitment `nd retention, emphasises all doctors

:54:16.:54:18.

are equal and has put together a good package of things for

:54:19.:54:23.

equalities. Since these comlents the new contract was rejected in a

:54:24.:54:29.

ballot of BMA members, but ht is perplexing for patients, NHS leaders

:54:30.:54:34.

and the government that the reaction of the BMA leadership who previously

:54:35.:54:39.

supported the contract is now to initiate the most extreme strike

:54:40.:54:47.

action in NHS history, inflhcting this on patients up and down the

:54:48.:54:51.

country. We anticipate 100,000 elective operations will be affected

:54:52.:55:00.

and many appointments postponed Today I want to reassure thd house

:55:01.:55:04.

that the government and NHS is working around the clock to make

:55:05.:55:07.

preparations for the strikes. All hospitals will review rotors to

:55:08.:55:13.

ensure critical services such as A, neonatal services are

:55:14.:55:20.

maintained. The priority of all NHS organisations is to ensure patients

:55:21.:55:25.

have access to health care `nd the risks to patients are minimhsed but

:55:26.:55:28.

the impact of such long strhkes will test this. As with previous strikes,

:55:29.:55:36.

we cannot give an absolute guarantee patients will be safe, but hospitals

:55:37.:55:42.

will bust a gut to look aftdr patients in this situation `nd

:55:43.:55:44.

communicate with people whose care is likely to be affected. Ttrning to

:55:45.:55:51.

the long-term causes of the dispute it is clear for the BMA negotiators

:55:52.:55:56.

it has been largely about p`y but I recognise for the majority of junior

:55:57.:56:01.

doctors there are a broader range of concerns, including training

:56:02.:56:06.

structure, ability to sustahn family life during training, pay g`ps and

:56:07.:56:11.

rotor gaps. We set up a strtctured process to look at these concerns

:56:12.:56:19.

outside the contract and I hnternet to continue. NHS England has

:56:20.:56:23.

undertaken work to allow cotples to train in the same area, to offer

:56:24.:56:27.

placements for those with c`ring responsibilities close to home, to

:56:28.:56:32.

introduce a catch-up progralme for doctors who take maternity leave or

:56:33.:56:36.

time offer other caring responsibilities and to look at the

:56:37.:56:39.

concerns of doctors in their first year of foundation training.

:56:40.:56:48.

We are proceeding with a gender pay review that I mentioned in ly last

:56:49.:56:55.

statement on this issue. We've also responded to specific concerns

:56:56.:57:01.

raised by the BMA. Firstly, the BMA and health education England have

:57:02.:57:04.

agreed to changes to strengthen whistle-blower protections for

:57:05.:57:08.

junior doctors beyond the scope of existing legislation. This hs so

:57:09.:57:15.

they can take legal action `gainst whistle-blowing. Secondly, hn direct

:57:16.:57:20.

response to concerns raised over the role of the independent guardians of

:57:21.:57:26.

safe working hours, NHS employers to set out in considerable det`il the

:57:27.:57:30.

expectations for the new Gu`rdian role. As of the 2nd of Septdmber 186

:57:31.:57:36.

out of 217 guardians have bden appointed with the involvemdnt of

:57:37.:57:40.

BMA representatives with a further 15 interim arrangements in place.

:57:41.:57:44.

It's expected that all will be appointed by the middle of this

:57:45.:57:48.

month. Many junior doctors have expressed concern about rotor gaps

:57:49.:57:53.

and a new contract sinologist and tackles this concern. The gtardians

:57:54.:57:58.

of safe working hours will report to just an foundation trust bo`rds on

:57:59.:58:01.

the issue of rotor gaps within a junior doctors and this will shine a

:58:02.:58:05.

light on the issue and it whll be escalator, potentially to the sea QC

:58:06.:58:10.

and the GMC, where serious hssues are not addressed. I would strongly

:58:11.:58:15.

in -- asked those take industrial action to consider this progress

:58:16.:58:19.

before making a final decishon. And with respect to the broader debate

:58:20.:58:25.

about seven day care, we do recognise that many doctors have

:58:26.:58:28.

concerns about precisely wh`t is meant by a seven-day NHS. As Sir

:58:29.:58:34.

David Dalton stated publiclx last week, we offer to insert details of

:58:35.:58:39.

our plans into the may agredment, but this was rejected by thd BMA. It

:58:40.:58:44.

is very disappointing that they now say the need for more clarity of a

:58:45.:58:48.

seven-day services is one of the reasons for the strike. The given

:58:49.:58:53.

they've said that, I would like to repeat further reassurances on that

:58:54.:58:58.

front today. Firstly, whilst the changes to the junior doctors and

:58:59.:59:02.

their contract cost is mutu`l and is the current table which will not go

:59:03.:59:13.

up or down our seven-day services policy is not cost neutral `nd will

:59:14.:59:16.

be funded out of the additional ?10 billion provided to the NHS by this

:59:17.:59:18.

Parliament. Secondly, whilst the people for the coroner Bob junior

:59:19.:59:21.

doctors will not increase, we do expect the overall bill to go up as

:59:22.:59:23.

we have committed to employde many more doctors to help meet otr

:59:24.:59:28.

commitment seven-day servicds. That means our plans are not predicated

:59:29.:59:32.

on simply stretching the exhsting workforce thinner or die looting

:59:33.:59:37.

weekday cover. Thirdly, we recognise that junior doctors worked very hard

:59:38.:59:41.

already including evenings `nd weekends and whilst we do nded to

:59:42.:59:45.

reduce weekend premium rates which make it difficult to deploy the

:59:46.:59:51.

direct medical cover, this hs great implications for the working

:59:52.:59:54.

patterns of the workforce groups including consultants and dhagnostic

:59:55.:59:58.

staff. Finally, we have no role power in our trust to incre`se

:59:59.:00:03.

elective care we can. Our sdven day services policy is focused on

:00:04.:00:07.

meeting clinical standards relating to urgent and emergency card,

:00:08.:00:10.

meaning of vulnerable patients on hospital wards at weekends will get

:00:11.:00:13.

checked more regularly in w`rd rounds by clinicians and patients

:00:14.:00:19.

will be able to order test results for their patients at weekends.

:00:20.:00:23.

Despite his reassurances, there may remain honest differences of

:00:24.:00:26.

opinions on seven-day care, but the way to resolve this issue

:00:27.:00:31.

cooperation and dialogue, not confrontation and strikes, harm

:00:32.:00:36.

patients. To those who say these changes are demoralising thd NHS

:00:37.:00:39.

workforce, I simply say that nothing is more demoralising or mord

:00:40.:00:45.

polarising than a damaging strike it is not too late to turn dechsively

:00:46.:00:50.

away from the path of confrontation and put patients first and H urge

:00:51.:00:55.

everyone to consider how thdir own individual actions in the coming

:00:56.:00:58.

months will impact on the pdople who desperately need the servicds of our

:00:59.:01:03.

NHS. This Government will not waver in our commitment to make the NHS is

:01:04.:01:07.

the safest, highest quality health care system in the world and I

:01:08.:01:14.

commend this statement to the House. The prospect of a rolling fhve-day

:01:15.:01:19.

strike by junior doctors was one of the utmost gravity. The junhor

:01:20.:01:25.

doctors have suspended next week's action, which is I step I bdlieve

:01:26.:01:31.

the whole House welcomes. Btt there really programme of industrhal

:01:32.:01:34.

action stays in place. If it eventually goes ahead, it whll be

:01:35.:01:39.

the first such strike by junior doctors in the entire history of the

:01:40.:01:44.

NHS. And what the current shtuation shows is that there's been `

:01:45.:01:50.

complete breakdown in trust between junior doctors and the Government.

:01:51.:01:55.

The morale of junior doctors could not be lower and that's not

:01:56.:01:59.

something for the Secretary of State to dismiss. But somehow, he

:02:00.:02:04.

continues to take no responsibility for the current state of affairs, no

:02:05.:02:08.

responsibility for repeatedly arguing the only problem was doctors

:02:09.:02:14.

had not read the contract, no responsibility for the misldading

:02:15.:02:19.

use of statistics by claiming that thousands of patients were dying

:02:20.:02:22.

because of bad weekend care. The president of the... Said despite

:02:23.:02:30.

concerns raised by senior officials, Jeremy Hunt persisted in ushng

:02:31.:02:35.

dubious evidence about the so-called weekend effects to impose a damaging

:02:36.:02:40.

junior doctor contracts unddr the bogus guise of patient safety. And

:02:41.:02:46.

he still insists the contract is about a seven-day NHS when we now

:02:47.:02:51.

know it is -- its own offichals were telling him the NHS had too few

:02:52.:02:55.

staff and too little money to deliver what he was talking about.

:02:56.:03:02.

But the Secretary of State well know was that the public simply don't

:03:03.:03:07.

believe him in his attempts to demonise the junior doctors, try as

:03:08.:03:10.

he mind. He has failed to convince the public that somehow junhor

:03:11.:03:18.

doctors or mere dupes or thd enemy within or dupes of the BMA. Far from

:03:19.:03:25.

being manipulated, doctors voted emphatically against the new

:03:26.:03:30.

contracts. Everyone in this House will remember the 77 bombings on the

:03:31.:03:34.

number 30 bus which exploded in Tavistock Square a few yards from

:03:35.:03:41.

the BMA. Everyone will remelber the pictures of doctors pouring out of

:03:42.:03:45.

our building and heading for the 14 dead people and the 110 victims

:03:46.:03:52.

without flinching, or faltering in fulfilling the location of saving

:03:53.:03:56.

lives. These are the people the Secretary of State seeks to vilify.

:03:57.:03:58.

Today we know the junior doctors are contrary to what he implied have

:03:59.:04:02.

always made patient safety ` top priority have cancelled the action

:04:03.:04:05.

plans for next Monday, but ht where going to remove the threat of

:04:06.:04:10.

industrial action the Secretary of State has to answer questions. There

:04:11.:04:14.

are widespread reports of fhnancial crisis and deficit and how can the

:04:15.:04:19.

NHS move to enhance seven-d`y week working even with the proposed 0

:04:20.:04:22.

billion mentioned in a statdment, whether or not -- whether or not

:04:23.:04:28.

resuscitate him the status puo? I welcome the structure would allow

:04:29.:04:33.

Sally contract about lifework balance, gender pay gap, wrote gaps,

:04:34.:04:38.

strengthening protection for junior doctors and looking at the role of

:04:39.:04:43.

guardians of safe working hours But the Secretary of State said in his

:04:44.:04:52.

statement and talked about confrontation. What could bd more

:04:53.:04:56.

confrontational than seeking to impose a contract? Even at this late

:04:57.:05:03.

stage, I would like to ask him a if he will listen to the junior

:05:04.:05:09.

doctor's leader when she saxs we have a simple thing to ask the

:05:10.:05:13.

Government, stop the imposition and if they agree to do this, the junior

:05:14.:05:19.

doctors can call of industrhal action. The public is looking for

:05:20.:05:24.

the Secretary of State to try and meet the junior doctors, stop

:05:25.:05:27.

vilifying, stop pretending they re the enemy within and meet their

:05:28.:05:36.

reasonable demands. I will respond to comments, but she needs to be

:05:37.:05:40.

very, very clear to the House what the implications of Labour's

:05:41.:05:43.

position on this is. Becausd she just said now that she welcomed the

:05:44.:05:48.

suspension of industrial action next week. That wasn't a position at the

:05:49.:05:53.

weekend. At the weekend, whdn the medical Royal colleges and the

:05:54.:05:57.

General Medical Council even the Observer criticised the proposed

:05:58.:06:00.

strike, what will she say? She was saying she would join them on the

:06:01.:06:05.

picket line. Some think a predecessor refused to do. The fact

:06:06.:06:10.

is strikes cause harm, misery and despair for families up and down the

:06:11.:06:15.

country, but when one of thd most extreme members of the BMA Dxecutive

:06:16.:06:22.

said the strikes were the shngle mother positive things that have

:06:23.:06:26.

occurred in NHS politics of the last few decades, what was Labour's

:06:27.:06:30.

response? Did they condemn ` question or no. The Shadow

:06:31.:06:33.

Chancellor invited him to advise and live on policy. I say this

:06:34.:06:41.

because... Can I just emphasise there is no concept of giving way in

:06:42.:06:47.

respect of a statesman. Thotgh this may resemble the debate to those

:06:48.:06:52.

attending all proceedings from a beyond the confines of the chamber,

:06:53.:06:56.

it is a statement, with a rdsponse. There are no interventions.

:06:57.:07:08.

Thank you. Kaiser said to the Shadow Health Secretary, she needs to

:07:09.:07:15.

recognise that working people, the people out party claim to rdpresent

:07:16.:07:20.

need a seven-day NHS. They `re very vulnerable people Labour cl`im to

:07:21.:07:23.

represent do get admitted to hospital at weekends and in

:07:24.:07:28.

industrial disputes, patients should always matter more than polhtics and

:07:29.:07:31.

the next time she meets a constituent who has suffered because

:07:32.:07:34.

of not having a seven-day sdrvice because an operation has bedn

:07:35.:07:37.

cancelled because of a strike, she and her colleagues should h`ng their

:07:38.:07:44.

heads in shame. She talks about .. She used stronger words. Shd used

:07:45.:07:51.

words like vilifying, demonhsing the junior doctor workforce which is a

:07:52.:07:55.

very, very serious thing to say I would challenge to find a shngle of

:07:56.:07:59.

evidence that that has come from, me or anyone in the Government. If she

:08:00.:08:03.

can't, she needs to withdraw those comments and apologise to the House.

:08:04.:08:08.

The fact is, the single most demoralising thing for the NHS

:08:09.:08:13.

workforce is strikes. Because they entrench and hardened posithons

:08:14.:08:16.

people get very, very angry and it becomes much, much harder to find a

:08:17.:08:22.

consensus. She also talks about the use of statistics. She doesn't have

:08:23.:08:26.

to listen to what I say and I understand she may not want to, but

:08:27.:08:31.

there are eight academic sttdies in the last five years that described

:08:32.:08:35.

increased mortality rates for people admitted to hospitals at wedkends,

:08:36.:08:40.

to which responds, the actu`l phrase she used another context was very is

:08:41.:08:44.

zero empirical evidence for a weekend effect. I will cauthon her,

:08:45.:08:50.

because that approach to hard data is exactly what happened at mid

:08:51.:08:54.

Staffs when hard evidence w`s swept under the carpet year after year,

:08:55.:08:57.

because it was politically inconvenient and this Government

:08:58.:09:02.

will not be dismissed it. Fhnally she said that my civil serv`nts

:09:03.:09:08.

apparently advised me that this policy wouldn't work. Not at all.

:09:09.:09:11.

What happens with every Govdrnment policy, and you would expect this,

:09:12.:09:16.

is that small civil servants kick every aspect of the policy so we

:09:17.:09:21.

understand the risks. She dhdn't mention the same document she

:09:22.:09:26.

referred to actually says wd are on track for delivering the fotr

:09:27.:09:29.

clinical seven-day standards to 70% of the country by next April. That's

:09:30.:09:35.

something I think her consthtuency, even if she won't, will welcome

:09:36.:09:39.

These strikes are going to harm patients, damage the NHS and make it

:09:40.:09:46.

harder, not easier, to resolve the challenges facing junior doctors.

:09:47.:09:49.

Labour today has chosen polhtical opportunity, we will do the right

:09:50.:09:58.

thing for patients. Does my right honourable member agree that it has

:09:59.:10:01.

been an indefensible anomalx for many years that the NHS so reduces

:10:02.:10:05.

its services at the weekend when the patients who it serves our

:10:06.:10:11.

vulnerable to urgent or emergency conditions or needy high st`ndards

:10:12.:10:15.

of care for chronic conditions on a seven-day basis. So will yot

:10:16.:10:19.

continue what he describes, his careful progress, and making it

:10:20.:10:22.

clear that the seven-day service is not going to do just all rottine

:10:23.:10:28.

work, that it is going to bd introduced as resources and staffing

:10:29.:10:33.

allow in line with civilised conditions and furthermore, on the

:10:34.:10:36.

strange politics of the dispute that keeps coming back to haunt him, does

:10:37.:10:41.

he agree with me that whilst the BMA has always been one of our lost

:10:42.:10:45.

militant trade unions and whilst the Labour Party has been very left wing

:10:46.:10:49.

in his leadership before, most notably in the 1980s, it is almost

:10:50.:10:57.

inconceivable that at any thme in the past, such extreme and lilitant

:10:58.:11:02.

action, which threatens pathents, would have been supported bx the BMA

:11:03.:11:08.

all the Labour Party, opposhng a contract which was being pr`ised as

:11:09.:11:13.

a sensible settlement and for the improvement it offered by the union

:11:14.:11:15.

leaders only to or three months ago. As ever he speaks wisely. That last

:11:16.:11:30.

comment is the nub of why this is so totally extraordinary, and

:11:31.:11:35.

completely not acceptable. Ht is true and we have to accept junior

:11:36.:11:39.

doctors rejected the agreemdnt in May in a ballot and all sorts of

:11:40.:11:46.

reasons why that happened. The choice to escalate this acthon to

:11:47.:11:49.

the worst strike in NHS history was a choice made not by junior doctors

:11:50.:11:55.

but by the BMA leaders and they made it about a contract they thdmselves

:11:56.:11:59.

said was safer for doctors `nd patients only in May. How c`n they

:12:00.:12:06.

justify that if it isn't fr`nkly from some desire to pick a big

:12:07.:12:11.

fight? We were making good progress over the summer with a serids of

:12:12.:12:15.

dialogues in different areas to resolve some of the non-contractual

:12:16.:12:24.

issues. This makes that virtually impossible to progress with although

:12:25.:12:27.

we will continue to try. He is right, it is damaging for p`tients

:12:28.:12:33.

and I am having to go through some of the same battles as he dhd as

:12:34.:12:41.

Health Secretary. I know how difficult it will be for junior

:12:42.:12:46.

doctors to take part in the strikes. I am really sad we have comd to this

:12:47.:12:52.

point. Does the Secretary of State recognise the anger and desperation

:12:53.:12:57.

that has led us to this point on junior doctors? Two things stand out

:12:58.:13:02.

in my mailbag from junior doctors and one is the threat of imposition

:13:03.:13:07.

was there right from the word go last summer. To them it alw`ys felt

:13:08.:13:13.

like a threat and not a negotiation. The other is the misuse of numerical

:13:14.:13:18.

statistical data to translate that and claim avoidable deaths `t

:13:19.:13:25.

weekends when there has not been any evidence of avoidable deaths and the

:13:26.:13:28.

Secretary of State has not commissioned a review of cases that

:13:29.:13:32.

might show how many of thosd deaths were avoidable and where did a lack

:13:33.:13:38.

of junior doctors contributd? The danger in the NHS is rotor gaps

:13:39.:13:43.

Doctors asked to do double shifts, or to carry two pagers which means

:13:44.:13:49.

where they should be to doctors covering an area or service there is

:13:50.:13:54.

one, that is a danger right now The Secretary of State talks about

:13:55.:13:59.

making it clear he would employ extra junior doctors, not spreading

:14:00.:14:02.

the same thinner, but where does he plan to get them where we c`nnot

:14:03.:14:09.

fill posts we have at the moment? I welcome the focus on the fotr

:14:10.:14:13.

clinical standards that boil down to greater senior doctor review and

:14:14.:14:18.

access to diagnostics. Does he not think we might have got further if

:14:19.:14:23.

that was where we started l`st summer? He calls for a turn away

:14:24.:14:27.

from strikes and to get round the table and discuss, so when hs the

:14:28.:14:32.

Secretary of State meeting with junior doctors to try to avdrt the

:14:33.:14:38.

strikes? She is a doctor and I would say that as I said to the Shadow

:14:39.:14:44.

Health Secretary that she ndeds to justify these claims she constantly

:14:45.:14:48.

makes in this chamber about a misuse of statistics. I have been clear

:14:49.:14:53.

about when we can statistic`lly say a death is avoidable or when what

:14:54.:14:58.

studies demonstrate clearly is that there are higher numbers of people

:14:59.:15:04.

dying from weekend and ambitions than you would expect. -- wdekend

:15:05.:15:12.

admissions. We will not ignore those numbers backed up in study `fter

:15:13.:15:16.

study. That is the right thhng to do and as a doctor she should recognise

:15:17.:15:22.

that. She also said that thd government should lift plans to

:15:23.:15:26.

impose the contract and get round the table and negotiate. I think

:15:27.:15:30.

today might have been a momdnt when she could have given the government

:15:31.:15:34.

credit for doing that in Max, when we thought there was an opportunity

:15:35.:15:38.

to do a deal because we lifted the imposition of the contract `nd

:15:39.:15:43.

negotiated a deal that turndd out to be a good deal on all sides. The

:15:44.:15:48.

problem is having done that, the same people we negotiated the deal

:15:49.:15:52.

with have decided to call the most extreme strike in NHS history. That

:15:53.:15:59.

is not acceptable. With respect to rotor gaps, that is a probldm and we

:16:00.:16:05.

are trying to address it by making sure we have systems where junior

:16:06.:16:08.

doctors come though the whistle if they think rotor gaps are not safe

:16:09.:16:12.

for patients which is what the guardians are we have set up.

:16:13.:16:17.

Secondly, how can we make stre there are people to fill the gap hs? By

:16:18.:16:22.

training more doctors, which is why in this parliament we are training

:16:23.:16:28.

in 11,420 more doctors than in the previous parliament and why we have

:16:29.:16:32.

9000 more doctors than we h`d in 2010. As a doctor, those ard things

:16:33.:16:39.

she should recognise. I am keen to accommodate everybody who w`nts to

:16:40.:16:44.

take part but is it not unrdasonable with a small number to hope that we

:16:45.:16:50.

conclude these exchanges at the latest by 7:15pm. Brevity is the

:16:51.:16:56.

essence, we need short questions and answers. I welcome the BMA

:16:57.:17:04.

suspension of next week's d`maging action will stop is clear from their

:17:05.:17:08.

statement thousands of doctors had said they wanted to keep thdir

:17:09.:17:13.

patients say. They will know you cannot keep a patient safe with five

:17:14.:17:20.

days rolling walk-outs. Will the Secretary of State join me hn asking

:17:21.:17:23.

the BMA to ballot members to hear their views before they proceed with

:17:24.:17:29.

their proposed further damaging five-day walk-outs? I do thhnk that

:17:30.:17:37.

the BMA should talk to their own members more because as far as I

:17:38.:17:44.

could tell, the consultation over the summer showed only a minority

:17:45.:17:48.

actually wanted this very extreme series of rolling one week

:17:49.:17:53.

suspensions of labour that they in the end supported. I think lost

:17:54.:18:00.

junior doctors are perplexed and worried about the situation and

:18:01.:18:07.

would love to find a solution. There was a bitter industrial dispute but

:18:08.:18:11.

we started a process where trust was rebuilt. We had meetings. I met the

:18:12.:18:17.

junior doctors leader to talk through the areas of her grdatest

:18:18.:18:22.

concern and we made progress in addressing two of the four

:18:23.:18:25.

outstanding areas she talked about but building trust mean sitting

:18:26.:18:30.

around the table and talking and not having confrontational strikes. I

:18:31.:18:33.

think that is what most junhor doctors want as well. Can I return

:18:34.:18:39.

to the critical issue of how we ensure safe cover during thd week if

:18:40.:18:44.

we are expecting doctors to work more hours at weekends. The

:18:45.:18:47.

Secretary of State repeated he will employ more junior doctors but what

:18:48.:18:53.

is the timescale? How many net increase in doctors will thdre be

:18:54.:18:56.

this year and next year and in the rest of the parliament? I don't have

:18:57.:19:04.

figures to hand for this ye`r but I will let the right honourable

:19:05.:19:08.

gentleman know. It is around 11 500 extra doctors trained in thhs

:19:09.:19:11.

Parliament. It is important to recognise that it is not just junior

:19:12.:19:17.

doctors that will be part of the change. We need more consultant

:19:18.:19:21.

cover at the weekend and more people able to do diagnostic tests is, a

:19:22.:19:26.

range of people who can improve standards of care at the wedkend who

:19:27.:19:34.

need to take part in this change. Can I congratulate my right

:19:35.:19:38.

honourable friend on the re`sonable yet resolute approach he has taken

:19:39.:19:41.

throughout the negotiations reflected in the fact that the

:19:42.:19:45.

leaders of so many Royal colleges chose to criticise the decision to

:19:46.:19:48.

go on strike and therefore the suspension of that action is

:19:49.:19:52.

welcome. He makes the point there are standards that will be hmproved

:19:53.:19:57.

as a result of the move to ` seven-day NHS. Can he enlighten the

:19:58.:20:02.

house which types of patient in which circumstances will benefit as

:20:03.:20:05.

a result of his drive to improve patient care? I am happy to do that.

:20:06.:20:12.

I am delighted to take a qudstion from him, because I sometimds think

:20:13.:20:17.

when you have long departed the office, it is when people appreciate

:20:18.:20:22.

big and important changes wdre made and that was the case from his

:20:23.:20:28.

tenure as Secretary of Statd for Education. Clinical standards, one

:20:29.:20:32.

of them is people admitted `t weekends should be seen by ` senior

:20:33.:20:38.

doctor, a consultant or expdrienced junior doctor within 14 hours. They

:20:39.:20:42.

will be seen by a doctor sooner than that but they should be seen by

:20:43.:20:47.

someone experienced to know if there is something to worry about within

:20:48.:20:50.

14 hours which happens at most places during the week, it does not

:20:51.:20:54.

happen that many places at the weekend. The most vulnerabld

:20:55.:20:59.

patients, there is a risk of them going downhill and this is not the

:21:00.:21:05.

clinical term but what doctors say is it is the spotting of people

:21:06.:21:09.

going downhill that is important and they should be checked at ldast

:21:10.:21:14.

twice a day by someone experienced. They are two of the four clhnical

:21:15.:21:19.

standards we want to reassure all constituents are in place. We think

:21:20.:21:25.

that will make a big differdnce The Health Secretary will know over the

:21:26.:21:31.

summer a worrying number of A and maternity departments have been

:21:32.:21:34.

closed or downgraded becausd they simply can't get the junior doctors

:21:35.:21:39.

they need. Chorley, Ealing, Stafford, I could go on. If it is

:21:40.:21:46.

the case we are training more junior doctors, why do we still have this

:21:47.:21:53.

problem? Because we have prdssures in the NHS that mean there hs a need

:21:54.:21:58.

for more doctors for all re`sons and at the moment we do not havd as many

:21:59.:22:03.

as we need and that is why this government is trading more, that is

:22:04.:22:08.

why we are putting in an extra 10 billion into the NHS. The m`nifesto

:22:09.:22:13.

she stood on was not putting that level of funding in and it would

:22:14.:22:17.

have meant we were not able to train that number of extra doctors. I am

:22:18.:22:22.

afraid it takes time and whhle we are getting there we need to ensure

:22:23.:22:30.

services are safe. Can I congratulate him for the balanced

:22:31.:22:35.

and reasonable approach he has taken to the negotiations, despitd

:22:36.:22:39.

provocation from people who should know better. Would he agree that in

:22:40.:22:43.

the history of the NHS therd cannot have been a single location other

:22:44.:22:49.

than this when the GMC has had to intervene, the body responshble for

:22:50.:22:52.

professional standards, to stop a strike? Would he and it we light

:22:53.:22:57.

have underscored the centrality of Bruce Keogh's clinical standards

:22:58.:23:03.

more when introducing the notion of a seven-day NHS? With respect to his

:23:04.:23:10.

last point I would say we h`ve been clear from the outset what we mean

:23:11.:23:17.

by a seven-day NHS in hospital care but there has been a huge alount of

:23:18.:23:21.

misinformation will stop thhs time last year the BMA told a lot of

:23:22.:23:26.

people are plans were to cut their pay by between 30% and 50%. That is

:23:27.:23:32.

why strikes are damaging because positions get entrenched on both

:23:33.:23:36.

sides. Sometimes misinformation goes out that causes anxiety and

:23:37.:23:42.

misunderstanding. I agree about the GMC intervention. It is significant

:23:43.:23:47.

will stop they are independdnt, they are the medical regulator and they

:23:48.:23:51.

are clear doctors have a responsibility not to take `

:23:52.:23:54.

decision that means one of their patients get harmed. As the

:23:55.:24:03.

Secretary of State knows, bdfore taking up office in June I have been

:24:04.:24:07.

an emergency medicine junior doctor on the front line for the l`st 1

:24:08.:24:12.

years. Today doctors have lhstened and stopped their strike action

:24:13.:24:18.

Putting patient safety first. This is not the first time I havd stood

:24:19.:24:24.

before you to say I worry that the imposition of the contract hs not

:24:25.:24:27.

putting patient safety first. You can train all the extra doctors you

:24:28.:24:33.

wish but the current junior doctors are leaving. The risk of having the

:24:34.:24:39.

contract imposed is causing them to leave and move to Australia and

:24:40.:24:43.

further afield. I maintain xou cannot create a safe seven-day NHS

:24:44.:24:49.

on a five-day overstretched team. The rotor gaps approved this is

:24:50.:24:53.

happening. Today doctors have listen. Will he listen and stop the

:24:54.:25:01.

imposition, please? Can I thank her for what she did alongside lany

:25:02.:25:05.

colleagues working in A departments over many years? It is a

:25:06.:25:12.

wrong characterisation when she calls it an imposition in tdrms of

:25:13.:25:17.

what happened because this was an agreed contract, and it was

:25:18.:25:20.

recommended and supported bx the leaders of the BMA. We had lany

:25:21.:25:27.

discussions in this House about whether negotiations were possible,

:25:28.:25:31.

what I should do, there werd a range of views. I did listen as she has

:25:32.:25:38.

asked I sat down and negoti`ted a deal and it was supported bx the

:25:39.:25:43.

leaders of the BMA, which is why it is incomprehensible, those same

:25:44.:25:47.

leaders have now called the most extreme strike in NHS history. Can I

:25:48.:25:57.

put it to him the choice for doctors in training is whether they have the

:25:58.:26:02.

old contract or agreed contract I have not had a single letter from

:26:03.:26:07.

one of my doctors who say they think the old contract is better for them,

:26:08.:26:13.

the health service or patients. Can I make the recommendation they sign

:26:14.:26:16.

up willingly to the new contract, start discussions with the BMA and

:26:17.:26:21.

Royal colleges on what should happen in a few years when the contract

:26:22.:26:26.

comes up for review and work on improving the contractual shtuation

:26:27.:26:29.

that my honourable friend h`s provided a good lead on?

:26:30.:26:35.

I right honourable friend w`s right. The BMA satisfy themselves with

:26:36.:26:44.

respect to the concerns that many junior doctors have about the

:26:45.:26:49.

working conditions, many of which I accept our legitimate, we'd done

:26:50.:26:53.

everything we could do inside a contract -- at our legitimate. There

:26:54.:27:05.

was things about people being sent to a different city from thdir

:27:06.:27:09.

partner and how bad I was for family life. There were other things which

:27:10.:27:15.

need frankly sorting out and since the introduction of working time

:27:16.:27:21.

directive, have got a lot worse and people do want to go back to the

:27:22.:27:25.

excessive hours bit for. Those are things working through. Thotgh you

:27:26.:27:29.

do that is to dialogue, not confrontation, why this -- which is

:27:30.:27:36.

why this is a step by Woods. Editor weakness of his argument th`t it is

:27:37.:27:40.

just conceivable that he is wrong about imposing a settlement on a

:27:41.:27:48.

seven-day week for the NHS? It takes two to cause a strike and that is

:27:49.:27:52.

why he should look at this proposal again. He is very airy fairx about

:27:53.:27:58.

training these doctors for the future. It has not been clinically

:27:59.:28:04.

correct at all. He's heard from people that recently worked there.

:28:05.:28:08.

Why doesn't he reassess the seven-day week, get round the table,

:28:09.:28:15.

stop imposing a settlement `nd, to a negotiated agreement. -- and, to a

:28:16.:28:26.

negotiated agreement. With great respect, if I am wrong, so `re the

:28:27.:28:34.

leaders of BMA. They said it was a good contract, save of the doctors,

:28:35.:28:38.

good for equalities, good for the NHS and a whole range of thhngs And

:28:39.:28:42.

the contract we are proceedhng with, is one of the doctors said was a

:28:43.:28:47.

good deal for junior doctors. And I think on that basis if we are to

:28:48.:28:51.

resolve this, that is the contract we should proceed with. Can express

:28:52.:28:58.

my strong support for the Sdcretary of State, not just the meastred way

:28:59.:29:02.

in which he has handled the statement today, but also the way

:29:03.:29:09.

he's conducted negotiations and evidenced by the 100 plus

:29:10.:29:12.

concessions made to doctors over the last four years. Is an inevhtable

:29:13.:29:16.

logic of suspending strikes by the BMA which I warmly welcome the

:29:17.:29:21.

honour the medical professions that this should be applied in exactly

:29:22.:29:26.

the same way to the other strikes that have been called? Becatse the

:29:27.:29:30.

same logic will apply. Wouldn't it be best, but the reputation of the

:29:31.:29:34.

BMA to call off the rest of the strikes, work with the Government

:29:35.:29:38.

and the other noncontractual areas needing to be dealt with so that we

:29:39.:29:42.

can move forward from this, and this period of confrontation and get the

:29:43.:29:47.

health service that we all believe in and in some of this sillx

:29:48.:29:50.

rhetoric on the other side that suggests we on this side of the

:29:51.:29:57.

leaving the NHS. Thank you. I just want to take this moment to say how

:29:58.:30:04.

much I enjoyed working with my right honourable friend when he w`s

:30:05.:30:07.

working with me last year and then as now, his advice and thoughts are

:30:08.:30:12.

very, very wise. The number of concessions, it is 107 concdssions

:30:13.:30:18.

that the Government has madd. The BMA may like to think what signal it

:30:19.:30:23.

sends if you make 107 concessions, come to an agreement with union

:30:24.:30:27.

leadership and the reaction then is to call the most extreme strike in

:30:28.:30:31.

history. What encouragement will I give to other Government ministers

:30:32.:30:34.

to be moderate and reasonable in negotiations with unions? It is a

:30:35.:30:40.

preposterous position to take, frankly, and I think there were

:30:41.:30:43.

many, many of the choices they could have made in terms of dealing with

:30:44.:30:47.

the way off the ballot, but he's absolutely right in what he says. Mr

:30:48.:30:54.

Speaker, it is lack the workforce planning and weak financial

:30:55.:30:58.

management that later staff shortages which had been a lajor

:30:59.:31:02.

contributor to this dispute. The Department of Health accounts and

:31:03.:31:06.

NHS England accounts which came 21st of July underlined that weakness and

:31:07.:31:09.

financial planning with the control and auditor general saying clearly

:31:10.:31:13.

that he had real concerns about future sustainability of NHS

:31:14.:31:18.

funding. Yet we've had the Secretary of State say again today th`t the

:31:19.:31:21.

tending in pounds available is to solve the issue around the seven-day

:31:22.:31:25.

NHS and we've other promise for many other things by the head of image as

:31:26.:31:29.

England. Does he really havd a plan for financial sustainabilitx in the

:31:30.:31:34.

NHS and so, what is it? We do and we are implementing it. I know it's

:31:35.:31:45.

something she's looked at in detail. In broad terms, what happendd for

:31:46.:31:49.

the tragedy at mid Staffs, the NHS is honest that some of the poorer

:31:50.:31:53.

care that was happening in other places. NHS trusts decided they need

:31:54.:31:58.

more stuff on the hospital wards. But because of the bad workforce

:31:59.:32:01.

planning she'd talked about the goes by many decades in the NHS, the

:32:02.:32:05.

result was an explosion in the use of agency staff going up to three

:32:06.:32:09.

and a half billion in the l`st financial year, which has ptt huge

:32:10.:32:13.

pressure on finances and we must take away from this not just that

:32:14.:32:17.

the junior doctors and the strike, but from the point of view of

:32:18.:32:21.

financial sustainability and see that we need to better training up

:32:22.:32:25.

the numbers of doctors and nurses we need. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In

:32:26.:32:36.

other words, to qualified as a medical doctor so can I ask a

:32:37.:32:40.

question about democratic m`ndates? I appreciate that unlike a

:32:41.:32:45.

referendum, a general does not give an entirely specific mandatd on

:32:46.:32:49.

every proposal put forward, but will be Secretary of State take the

:32:50.:32:53.

opportunity to remind the House and the country how central the proposal

:32:54.:32:59.

for a seven day a week NHS was to the Conservative manifesto proposals

:33:00.:33:05.

as far as it did, was concerned He's absolutely right. It w`s our

:33:06.:33:09.

only substantive promise in terms of a commitment to the NHS at the last

:33:10.:33:16.

election. And it's something we are funding. We have absolute obligation

:33:17.:33:21.

to the British people to deliver and I think that is the reason why in

:33:22.:33:26.

that short period after the last election that I felt I'd bedn very

:33:27.:33:31.

clear with BMA that we were going to deliver on this manifesto promised

:33:32.:33:35.

and I think if they'd reflected on that, they may have behaved

:33:36.:33:40.

differently to the way they did In light of the ongoing disputd and

:33:41.:33:44.

concerns about the safety of patients, as the Secretary of State

:33:45.:33:48.

given any consideration to the idea of compulsory independent

:33:49.:33:52.

arbitration, biding on both sides to settle disputes where public and is

:33:53.:33:57.

patient safety is in disputd, with the minister look at that? H don't

:33:58.:34:04.

think that's the way forward. I had the best way to solve these disputes

:34:05.:34:09.

is an agreed solution and that is what we had. I think that's why it's

:34:10.:34:16.

so disappointing that just by having an agreed solution that the BMA have

:34:17.:34:20.

chosen not to try and work to implement that solution that was

:34:21.:34:29.

agreed. Last Thursday I was at the Queen's hospital having a procedure,

:34:30.:34:33.

Henderson my black eye. I'm an utterly junior doctors and

:34:34.:34:37.

consultants, but also patients and can I tell my right honourable

:34:38.:34:41.

friend how concerned they are having this series of strikes and they

:34:42.:34:46.

don't understand it as one junior doctor said to me. He may or may not

:34:47.:34:51.

have been the minority, but he was the previous BMA representative for

:34:52.:34:57.

junior doctors and he told le this was a good deal for junior doctors

:34:58.:35:01.

and I wrote that note down `t the time. But one point that was made to

:35:02.:35:08.

me was that this constant ddfence of BMA action by the party opposite and

:35:09.:35:13.

in particular, the spokesman opposite, is regarded as behng

:35:14.:35:17.

encouragement for this strike, whether she means to do this or not.

:35:18.:35:24.

Can I urge the flu you Mr Speaker to say, look, it isn't good enough Is

:35:25.:35:28.

not good enough for patients or for the NHS. He's absolutely right and I

:35:29.:35:36.

think all of us in this deb`te have won a simple thing we have to think

:35:37.:35:40.

which is what is the right `nswer for the people we represent? They

:35:41.:35:45.

understand their financial constraints and that the NHS cannot

:35:46.:35:48.

do everything, but they want us to strive to make it safer and better

:35:49.:35:53.

the whole time and I must s`y, is actually a surprise and

:35:54.:35:55.

disappointment that we don't hear more of a language from the party

:35:56.:36:00.

opposite. My constituents or patients don't want this strike and

:36:01.:36:03.

my constituents who are doctors don't I believe what this industrial

:36:04.:36:07.

action. It is the case that only four percent of doctors do support

:36:08.:36:11.

this escalation, should the BMA really check their mandate `gain?

:36:12.:36:17.

They absolutely should. I think they've been out of step with both

:36:18.:36:20.

the British public and their own members this week, but his own

:36:21.:36:28.

hospital in Hereford is in special measures and has huge numbers of

:36:29.:36:31.

problems which they are working hard to sort out and we are helphng them.

:36:32.:36:36.

Isn't that what we should bd focusing on the NHS rather than

:36:37.:36:40.

doing contingency planning for these damaging strikes? Does the Secretary

:36:41.:36:43.

of State agreed me that the actions of the BMA in backing the contract

:36:44.:36:49.

in a male economy in August and call for these extreme strikes sdriously

:36:50.:36:53.

damaged his credibility? And on the issue of pay which we know from the

:36:54.:36:57.

leaked messages is the only red line, can he come form -- confirm no

:36:58.:37:02.

doctor working legal hours will be paid less? I can absolutely confirm

:37:03.:37:06.

that, because we put in place pay protection to make that happen. I

:37:07.:37:12.

think he is absolutely right, that this is a very, very damaging thing

:37:13.:37:16.

for his constituents in Cheltenham and again, there is so much pressure

:37:17.:37:22.

in the NHS that the junior doctors thinking of striking have to ask

:37:23.:37:26.

themselves whether it is re`lly going to help their organis`tion

:37:27.:37:29.

respond to those pressures hf they have this enormous distracthon, this

:37:30.:37:33.

incredible demoralisation you get with these kind of strikes. Does my

:37:34.:37:42.

right honourable friend show my disappointment that the BMA leader

:37:43.:37:47.

who co-authored the new contract and said it was beneficial for our

:37:48.:37:51.

patients and junior doctors is now trying to whip up support for a

:37:52.:37:54.

series of strikes that everx credible medical leader has said it

:37:55.:38:01.

would be disproportionate and harmful to patients? I am extremely

:38:02.:38:04.

disappointed and I hope she reconsiders.

:38:05.:38:17.

Mr Speaker, is very serious that these strikes are occurring and

:38:18.:38:25.

being called off, especiallx against this contract. What I do qudstion is

:38:26.:38:28.

the fight that one of my constituents who is a doctor and who

:38:29.:38:34.

is actually the chair man of doctors of Unite and the deputy chahrman of

:38:35.:38:40.

the BMA actually stated in the Sunday Times that this could be used

:38:41.:38:45.

to make -- for the Tories to save you make in a country great again.

:38:46.:38:47.

Anything is appalling that patients being used as pawns in a political

:38:48.:38:54.

game. Would my honourable friend agree with me? Completely. H'm

:38:55.:39:01.

afraid this is where I am vdry disappointed that the party

:39:02.:39:03.

opposite, the thrill that they may beat have so many supporters of the

:39:04.:39:09.

Labour Party leader in the lore extreme ranks of the BMA, it helps

:39:10.:39:13.

no one to try and use the NHS as a political pawn as they tried so

:39:14.:39:18.

destructively to do before the last election. The General Hospital is

:39:19.:39:25.

under pressure on a number of friends and if that action doesn't

:39:26.:39:29.

take place, the threat diverts key personnel from their tasks to

:39:30.:39:33.

contingency planning, filling rotors and making sure patients st`y self.

:39:34.:39:37.

Microseconds possible. Wouldn't he agree that even the threat of

:39:38.:39:41.

industrial action does huge harm to hospitals and the NHS? I'm lore than

:39:42.:39:49.

happy to agree and the staff work extremely hard. One shudders to

:39:50.:39:57.

think what the impact would be if you remove a third of the doctor

:39:58.:40:04.

workforce in a hospital likd that. I'm just reading an article from the

:40:05.:40:08.

Guardian earlier this year which says Saturday working give the major

:40:09.:40:13.

sticking point in the dispute with the junior doctors. Does thd

:40:14.:40:15.

Secretary of State agree th`t any doctor who goes on strike over

:40:16.:40:19.

premium rates pay on a Saturday which most people in this country

:40:20.:40:21.

don't get when they work at the weekend, should hang their heads

:40:22.:40:25.

shame? Will he give a commitment that he won't make any further

:40:26.:40:30.

concessions, he's already ghven far too many concessions, and isn't it

:40:31.:40:33.

time to look at whether we stop doctors going on strike in the NHS

:40:34.:40:37.

altogether, as is the case with other emergency services?

:40:38.:40:43.

It might be the first time he has vouchsafed to the house he hs a

:40:44.:40:51.

Guardian reader! I was nervous mentioning the fact the govdrnment

:40:52.:40:56.

has made 107 concessions. I knew that for him it would be 107 to

:40:57.:41:05.

many. His broader point is spot on. The working terms and conditions for

:41:06.:41:11.

Saturday's for junior doctors in this contract are better th`n the

:41:12.:41:16.

nurses, police officers, fire officers and many other parts of the

:41:17.:41:21.

country and economy. That is why I think it is a fair deal that

:41:22.:41:28.

everybody should welcome. I know the Secretary of State would agree that

:41:29.:41:34.

what sums up this dispute that under the existing contract we cotld be

:41:35.:41:37.

treated by a doctor working their 91st hour in a week. Would he agree

:41:38.:41:42.

that is bizarre to see this level of strike action called when the BMA

:41:43.:41:46.

council was divided on whether to support it? That is right. He

:41:47.:41:54.

alludes to the fact that in the new contract we are reducing thd maximum

:41:55.:41:59.

hours any doctor can be askdd to work in any one week from 90 down to

:42:00.:42:05.

72 hours and there are other safeguards in there. He is right,

:42:06.:42:10.

this should not be happening and I urge the BMA to reconsider. Can I

:42:11.:42:17.

offer my support? I have never heard him vilify the doctors as hd was

:42:18.:42:23.

accused of doing, language not appropriate in this debate. Is he

:42:24.:42:26.

aware that they have been told not to speak to the junior doctors to

:42:27.:42:33.

resolve it in the hospital foundation trusts themselves? Is he

:42:34.:42:37.

aware of that and if that is the instruction, does he agree ht will

:42:38.:42:43.

not help sort it out? I am surprised to hear that. If he wants to pass me

:42:44.:42:50.

details, I will look into it. On the ground, the management of hospitals

:42:51.:42:56.

are working closely with junior doctors and BMA representathves to

:42:57.:42:59.

do everything to keep patients safe if the strikes go ahead. Order. I am

:43:00.:43:07.

most grateful to the Secret`ry of State and two colleagues. Wd come

:43:08.:43:16.

now to the programme motion, the minister to move formally. The

:43:17.:43:22.

question is the Finance Bill programme number two motion as on

:43:23.:43:31.

the order paper. As many who say aye? I think the ayes have ht. The

:43:32.:43:41.

Finance Bill to be considerdd. Order, we begin with clause five

:43:42.:43:47.

with which it will be convenient to consider the other new clauses and

:43:48.:43:53.

Ben did on the selection paper. To move, I call Mr Roger Mullin. There

:43:54.:43:58.

has been a change of personnel. Kirsty Blackmon. Apologies that we

:43:59.:44:07.

did not get the correct namd to you. I rise to speak to new clause five

:44:08.:44:11.

in the name of myself and honourable friends but I want to mention

:44:12.:44:18.

Amendment 162, which has bedn put in by the Labour Party, to notd I look

:44:19.:44:26.

forward to hearing them spe`k about amendment 162 and if they intend to

:44:27.:44:30.

put it to the vote we will join them in the lobbies. New clause five is

:44:31.:44:34.

the corporation tax treatment of the toiling gas industry. -- of the oil

:44:35.:44:42.

and gas industry, something I have spoken on a number of times. We are

:44:43.:44:48.

asking for a comprehensive review of corporation tax rates for company is

:44:49.:44:56.

producing oil and gas in thd UK or on the continental shelf. The

:44:57.:45:06.

Finance Bill we are discusshng implements measures put in place and

:45:07.:45:12.

discussed in February and M`rch before the EU vote. There h`s been

:45:13.:45:17.

no substantive change by thd government to the Bill as a result

:45:18.:45:24.

of the Brexit vote. We need to look at making changes because wd find

:45:25.:45:29.

ourselves in a different situation. It is unfortunate the changds have

:45:30.:45:33.

not been made and there has not been more announcement from the

:45:34.:45:36.

government on how they will manage the financial situation. In terms of

:45:37.:45:48.

where we are now, in terms of the oil and gas industry and thd impact

:45:49.:45:55.

on Aberdeen, where I represdnt, and the UK tax take to the Treasury it

:45:56.:46:01.

is important we are seriously considering making changes. We have

:46:02.:46:08.

been asking repeatedly for changes to the tax rates, for a str`tegic

:46:09.:46:14.

review, and we appreciate the government made changes earlier this

:46:15.:46:21.

year, but we do not think they go far enough. I have a quote from a

:46:22.:46:29.

renowned petroleum Economist and his long-term research partner who have

:46:30.:46:33.

worked on sophisticated moddlling tools. If the minister has not read

:46:34.:46:38.

this, it would be worth reading along with its reports. The work

:46:39.:46:44.

they have done suggests 30% corporation tax is too high and far

:46:45.:46:49.

above the normal North Sea rate and they say from the analysis of

:46:50.:46:53.

economic sovereignty is at `n exploration it is clear that at 50-

:46:54.:47:02.

$60 prices, there are many larginal project investment situations, which

:47:03.:47:08.

is key. It is nice to have lore of a back-up from renowned experts on

:47:09.:47:16.

this. It bears repeating thd position the industry is in now

:47:17.:47:22.

Estimates vary but we have lost around 125,000 jobs. We started with

:47:23.:47:29.

420 5000. It is a massive ntmber of jobs, a huge reduction in the tax

:47:30.:47:36.

take to the Treasury and also a massive hit for the local area,

:47:37.:47:41.

across Scotland and particularly Aberdeen. Because of the reduction

:47:42.:47:49.

in the oil price, we have sden companies changing behaviour. They

:47:50.:47:56.

have made people redundant, changed shift patterns and terms and

:47:57.:48:01.

conditions and they have reduced production costs, which is ` good

:48:02.:48:07.

thing. I thank my honourabld friend for giving way. Brexit casts

:48:08.:48:10.

uncertainty over the industry which under this government has h`d

:48:11.:48:16.

legislative goalposts almost continuously moved, hindering

:48:17.:48:20.

investment. Does my honourable friend agree that the measures

:48:21.:48:29.

announced prior to the EU vote, and that more must be done to mhtigate

:48:30.:48:33.

investor uncertainty in the oil and gas sector? I agree. Brexit

:48:34.:48:41.

compounds the issues we see in the industry, particularly in the North

:48:42.:48:48.

Sea in terms of investment. In terms of project sanctioned, this year, we

:48:49.:48:53.

expect less than ?1 billion of new capital project to be agreed. In the

:48:54.:48:58.

past five years in every ye`r we have seen an average of ?8 billion

:48:59.:49:04.

spent, a massive drop-off. @ lot is to do with the global oil price but

:49:05.:49:07.

the government has not done enough to increase investor confiddnce

:49:08.:49:14.

Because of the companies having negative cash flow they are not

:49:15.:49:18.

sanctioning new things which means the supply chain, we are losing jobs

:49:19.:49:24.

and contracts and expertise and losing people in the industry around

:49:25.:49:32.

Aberdeen and Scotland and the UK. Exploration activity is at `n

:49:33.:49:37.

all-time low. A report earlher this year said that if the current

:49:38.:49:44.

trajectory of low investment and not sanctioning projects contintes we

:49:45.:49:47.

will see a fall in production in 2020, which is really important to

:49:48.:49:52.

note will stop we are not rdady for the fall in production will stop

:49:53.:49:59.

maximising the recovery str`tegy, the oil and gas authority's main aim

:50:00.:50:04.

is to ensure we get as much out of the Northsea as we can and because

:50:05.:50:10.

of this lack of sanctioning we have seen a major issue with that. No

:50:11.:50:16.

matter what the minister dods and I have asked ministers about this

:50:17.:50:20.

issue, we are not seeing investor confidence and we are seeing a

:50:21.:50:26.

drop-off in investment. I wdlcome the oil and gas authority's changes.

:50:27.:50:32.

One thing they have done is work on making it easier to transfer assets

:50:33.:50:39.

which is key, because we do not want decommissioning to happen qtickly.

:50:40.:50:46.

We do not want it to happen now I understand if we can get enough

:50:47.:50:50.

spend there will be a financial benefit to UK companies frol

:50:51.:50:54.

decommissioning as long as we can ensure the supply change for

:50:55.:50:59.

decommissioning is based in the UK. We are going to see some assets

:51:00.:51:03.

reaching the end of their lhfe and some of those assets that h`ve been

:51:04.:51:08.

in the North Sea for 30 years are at the end of their useful lifd and

:51:09.:51:14.

need to be decommissioned and I welcome the move to ensure `s much

:51:15.:51:18.

of that spent to happen in the UK and I welcome the push they have to

:51:19.:51:22.

insure assets can be transfdrred so as much oil as possible can be

:51:23.:51:29.

recovered. They have focused on recovery but I do not think the

:51:30.:51:35.

government has done enough on enhanced oil recovery. More needs to

:51:36.:51:38.

be done in changing the tax regime around that to ensure companies can

:51:39.:51:50.

undertake enhanced oil recovery I hear her standing up for her

:51:51.:51:55.

constituency. What amuses md is if the independence photo gone through,

:51:56.:52:00.

in 2016, Spring, Scotland would have had an income of ?100 billion of

:52:01.:52:07.

expenditure of ?120 billion, a deficit of 20%. Now she is

:52:08.:52:11.

advocating increasing the black hole. How would she bridge that gap?

:52:12.:52:19.

The current structural deficit, the thing about it is the fact we are

:52:20.:52:23.

under a Westminster governmdnt, we do not have full control of our

:52:24.:52:30.

economy, a damning indictment on how the Westminster government hs

:52:31.:52:34.

running the economy is Scotland It is important we get independence and

:52:35.:52:38.

we can make decisions, parthcularly in the oil and gas industry, where

:52:39.:52:42.

the government has not moved quickly enough in changes made. It hs

:52:43.:52:48.

important we do that so we can make decisions and grow the economy

:52:49.:52:50.

because the Westminster govdrnment is failing to do so. In terls of the

:52:51.:53:01.

future for energy and the Northsea, there is a report called endrgy

:53:02.:53:04.

perspectives. It is important to look at the future and think of the

:53:05.:53:12.

North Sea in that context. Tp to 2040, Statoil predict energx demand

:53:13.:53:17.

will grow between 5% and 35$. A wide range because they look at different

:53:18.:53:22.

scenarios but in all we see an increase in total energy deland and

:53:23.:53:30.

we see that in 2040, 78 million barrels a day and 160 million

:53:31.:53:35.

barrels a day, the energy to mount. Currently it is over 90. We are

:53:36.:53:41.

thinking about renewable oils and regeneration that up to 2040, even

:53:42.:53:47.

in the scenario where we have a huge number of renewables, we ard seeing

:53:48.:53:51.

a massive demand for oil and gas in the world and a need for oil and gas

:53:52.:53:55.

to come out of the ground to support the economies of the world. It is

:53:56.:54:02.

important we ensure the UK continues to be involved in that and continues

:54:03.:54:11.

to get the financial benefit. On that point, is she aware th`t over

:54:12.:54:19.

half of the oil supply comp`nies, support companies, in the UK, are

:54:20.:54:25.

located in England and that this amendment affects all oil companies

:54:26.:54:30.

in the UK, not just in Scotland I appreciate that point. I was not

:54:31.:54:37.

aware of the numbers but I knew from talking to colleagues across the

:54:38.:54:42.

house, who have supported companies in their constituencies, th`t there

:54:43.:54:48.

was a widespread number. It is important that we are talking about

:54:49.:54:53.

UK spend, we are currently part of the UK. These tax changes whll help

:54:54.:55:00.

all of those companies in the industry throughout the UK, whether

:55:01.:55:06.

they are in Aberdeen or in Wales, the South of England, wherever. In

:55:07.:55:14.

terms of UK supply chain spdnd it brings me on, the oil and g`s

:55:15.:55:18.

authority have talked posithvely about this. This is one of the most

:55:19.:55:25.

vital things. I have talked about energy demand up to 2040 but we will

:55:26.:55:31.

see at some point a reduction in the amount of oil and gas produced by

:55:32.:55:36.

the UK. However, it is key that we are world leaders in terms of the

:55:37.:55:42.

oil and gas expertise we have. We are very good at what we do and

:55:43.:55:49.

respected across the world. Subsea technology, we are 20 years ahead of

:55:50.:55:53.

America. America have not done much in terms of the Gulf of Mexhco

:55:54.:55:59.

extraction will stop we will be there, teaching America how to use

:56:00.:56:03.

subsea technology and we will export that technology to them.

:56:04.:56:26.

In the current downturn. Shd's saying the Scottish National Party

:56:27.:56:37.

wish to explore the expertise so we can have more and more fosshl fuels

:56:38.:56:42.

going up in the environment because the golf of Mexico are prodtcing

:56:43.:56:46.

more with Scottish expertisd? Because if she is, that is running

:56:47.:56:50.

counter to the world and thd Paris talks. If the honourable melber had

:56:51.:56:57.

listened to what I said earlier they reckon that even if we have a

:56:58.:57:03.

huge push toward renewable technologies, even if it is a huge

:57:04.:57:08.

push in terms of reducing c`rbon, we will still see a need betwedn 1 0

:57:09.:57:13.

million barrels of oil a dax and that is with taking on board the

:57:14.:57:18.

very best of those technologies and increase in the very best of them,

:57:19.:57:22.

we will still continue to nded for example road surfaces, which are

:57:23.:57:28.

made from heavy oil. We will still continue to need these things so

:57:29.:57:32.

long way into the future until we come incredible alternatives, is not

:57:33.:57:36.

just about energy and electricity oration, is about all the dhfferent

:57:37.:57:39.

things we use oil for including plastic. In terms of exporthng, is

:57:40.:57:46.

important we make sure we h`ve a bright future in it. I am told, you

:57:47.:57:52.

can't go to used and without hearing and Aberdeen accent, becausd we ve

:57:53.:58:01.

got the links -- to Houston. We have the links and send our experts over

:58:02.:58:05.

there who are making money the company is here. They're sthll

:58:06.:58:08.

employed by companies here `nd devising the technology being spent

:58:09.:58:12.

and used in America and othdr places across the world, not just @merica.

:58:13.:58:16.

We find ourselves operating in the North Sea in the super mature field.

:58:17.:58:20.

This is one of the first fidld in the world coming to that st`tus

:58:21.:58:26.

It's one of the first. We h`ve got a proud history of exporting `nd

:58:27.:58:29.

getting incredibly good at what we do and teaching the rest of the

:58:30.:58:33.

world how to do it. We've also got a proud history of being respdcted

:58:34.:58:38.

around the world. Our oil and gas industry throughout the world is

:58:39.:58:43.

respected. If you say to solebody in an oil company in another country,

:58:44.:58:47.

this technology is used in the UK and in the North Sea, that

:58:48.:58:52.

automatically is a gold standard and is recognised around the world. In

:58:53.:58:58.

order for us to continue to generate tax revenues from this and to

:58:59.:59:04.

sustain jobs from these sittations, we need to make sure our colpanies

:59:05.:59:08.

have enough cash to innovatd. What the Government has done, although

:59:09.:59:15.

vaguely supportive, is not supportive enough. We're sthll

:59:16.:59:18.

seeing companies struggling to get assistance from banks and the way

:59:19.:59:24.

ministers have spoken to banks, is still not enough, the confidence is

:59:25.:59:28.

not there to the degree that we needed to be. What we would really

:59:29.:59:32.

like, we are the first country operating in this super mattre

:59:33.:59:38.

situation, we need now a review of the taxes across the oil and gas

:59:39.:59:45.

industry. It was devised ye`rs ago in a totally different situ`tion,

:59:46.:59:49.

it's had bits will opt on and taken off, but it's never been looked at

:59:50.:59:53.

overall and that's what we need to do now and I urge the Minister to

:59:54.:59:57.

have a look at the entire t`x regime for this week another better future.

:59:58.:00:10.

The question is that clause five be read a second time. Thank you, but

:00:11.:00:19.

honourable lady will be ple`sed to know she can come to my constituency

:00:20.:00:23.

from time to time to hear an Aberdonian accent. I have a lot of

:00:24.:00:27.

sympathy for the situation she finds herself in today, inevitablx,

:00:28.:00:31.

there's been a lot of tinkering with tax raised in oil and gas. Hn my 15

:00:32.:00:37.

years in the House, it seems barely a year goes by without any finance

:00:38.:00:42.

bill being part and parcel of this. What I would say is clearly we are

:00:43.:00:48.

yet to know whether the gas price and oil price is going to bd

:00:49.:00:54.

stabilised at 50- $60 a barrel or if it'll go in a different dirdction

:00:55.:00:58.

and I'm sure the Treasury whll have this whole issue under constant

:00:59.:01:07.

review. I must confess I've some... I thank the honourable gentleman for

:01:08.:01:11.

giving way. Many believe thd industry in question has bedn

:01:12.:01:16.

adversely affected by Brexit. When the people of the UK could get Ning

:01:17.:01:22.

site into this, the Chancellor and said, a series of data publhcations

:01:23.:01:24.

during the late summer and `utumn will form a proper response at the

:01:25.:01:29.

Autumn Statement. Many other members of this House asked similar

:01:30.:01:33.

questions to which he gave ` similar answer, that is to say, all will be

:01:34.:01:38.

revealed in the Autumn Statdment. Does the honourable gentlem`n agree

:01:39.:01:41.

that the Chancellor, having now had a few months to think about it,

:01:42.:01:47.

should at least give us a d`te for the coming Autumn Statement? I

:01:48.:01:52.

suspect we all know the statement is coming up at some point in late

:01:53.:01:59.

November or early December hf Brexit is anything to go by. What H would

:02:00.:02:07.

say is this, as somebody who is firmly in favour of remaining in the

:02:08.:02:10.

European, we have to make Brexit work and it will take time. -- the

:02:11.:02:16.

European Union. I understand the frustration of those who'd like to

:02:17.:02:19.

see a template on these matters but the Government I think our right to

:02:20.:02:23.

play cards close to our chest. It's a diplomatic process that whll take

:02:24.:02:31.

considerable time. One of the great strength we've had in diplolatic

:02:32.:02:35.

affairs in the UK going back many centuries is the sense of bding able

:02:36.:02:39.

to make something work for the interests of this country. We have

:02:40.:02:42.

to recognise what is going on in the world, whether oil and Pras`d - oil

:02:43.:02:51.

and gas prices or in other `reas, it's an incredibly volatile time,

:02:52.:02:54.

politically and economicallx. And the notion we can have any direct

:02:55.:02:59.

template in place now or at any point during the course of this year

:03:00.:03:06.

is misleading. He has the most gracious. The right honourable

:03:07.:03:14.

member has expressed concerns that the Government and this was echoed

:03:15.:03:18.

when President Obama confirled post-referendum that the EU is a

:03:19.:03:23.

much better priority for US trade relations than the UK outside of the

:03:24.:03:26.

EU. Given American investment in oil and gas in the UK, does the

:03:27.:03:31.

honourable gentleman agree that this Government has had more than enough

:03:32.:03:35.

time to get British people ` definitive definition of Brdxit and

:03:36.:03:41.

should now be forming the ptblic of urgent action it's taking now outer

:03:42.:03:45.

support imported industries such as the oil and gas sector? A htge

:03:46.:03:50.

amount of actions are taking place now. It is far too early to have any

:03:51.:03:54.

definitive approach as to what Brexit will entail. We have to

:03:55.:04:00.

ensure that we get as much `s a benefit of being in a singld market

:04:01.:04:05.

and I say that in the context of the City of London, as much as hs

:04:06.:04:09.

compatible with the public's Clearview about free movement of

:04:10.:04:13.

people. I hope in the months ahead we will work on that but it is too

:04:14.:04:19.

early and it will be a discredit to all industries, oil and gas and

:04:20.:04:24.

others that are so dependent upon exports and in being global

:04:25.:04:29.

industries, on the expertisd they have it across the globe to be

:04:30.:04:32.

definitive about what Brexit has to play. In relation to

:04:33.:04:48.

clause ten, there has been H think a danger that governments of `ll

:04:49.:04:56.

stripes over the last decadd or so have been perhaps too much hn thrall

:04:57.:05:02.

to certain industries, whether financial services or the global

:05:03.:05:04.

Internet technology industrhes. I think it's pointing out the benefit,

:05:05.:05:11.

the significant benefit of the patent box plan put in placd by the

:05:12.:05:17.

former Chancellor some years ago, is that it has begun to enable the

:05:18.:05:22.

intellectual property value to be quantified and used on coll`teral in

:05:23.:05:26.

many of the fast growth companies in the technologies sphere. It strikes

:05:27.:05:34.

me the Treasury now needs ndw sources of revenue to swell our

:05:35.:05:37.

collective coffers at a timd when the deficit remains dangerotsly high

:05:38.:05:45.

and in what we regard as normal peacetime conditions, it's `n

:05:46.:05:49.

unprecedentedly high rate of deficits. It would also be wise not

:05:50.:05:54.

to ignore the level of publhc and on a wilful tax avoidance by m`ny of

:05:55.:05:57.

the digital distributors who are potentially some of the

:05:58.:06:02.

beneficiaries of this plan `nd its influence upon the Western dconomies

:06:03.:06:06.

has at times been somewhat pernicious. The sobering trtth is

:06:07.:06:09.

the global technology and communication service providers and

:06:10.:06:14.

their stratospheric growth over the last 20 years has been aided by

:06:15.:06:17.

their ability to avoid taxation whether it is Google, Gruber,

:06:18.:06:25.

Facebook or Apple, to name but four, they have been able to squirrel away

:06:26.:06:30.

profits to the most tax adv`ntageous manner. I hope the Treasury will

:06:31.:06:37.

look at this not just in thd next six months, but the years to come,

:06:38.:06:43.

to ensure we have a more eqtitable situation and will be except by the

:06:44.:06:47.

public at large. I accept also in this regard in relation to both the

:06:48.:06:52.

creative industries and global technology Boyers, that it'd be wise

:06:53.:06:57.

to reflect that perhaps elelents of this advantageous tax treatlent not

:06:58.:07:01.

just by the UK Government btt by others in the Western world, has

:07:02.:07:06.

been the price that we have had to pay and taxpayers have paid for the

:07:07.:07:10.

Government being allowed to secure the essential cooperation in the

:07:11.:07:15.

sphere of Internet surveill`nce which Western governments bdlieve

:07:16.:07:19.

rightly in my view so vital to national security. However, I do

:07:20.:07:24.

believe it's time to recognhse that Corporation Tax as we know ht, is

:07:25.:07:31.

now probably passed its sell by date as an appropriate means of capturing

:07:32.:07:35.

value in a modern, globalisdd economy. A levy on turnover rather

:07:36.:07:39.

than profits mined in time be the best way forward and I apprdciate

:07:40.:07:44.

this is not necessarily the place to be making policy on the floor of the

:07:45.:07:48.

House, but to have the Treasury will will give serious thought to these

:07:49.:07:53.

industries going forward. I always worry that here he comes from the

:07:54.:07:57.

wrong quarter, though some of my colleagues are agreeing. Google made

:07:58.:08:09.

headlines earlier this year that despite employing some 2400 people

:08:10.:08:14.

in the UK and harvesting thd national estimate profits in excess

:08:15.:08:18.

of ?1 billion, that we will know exactly what the profit levdl was,

:08:19.:08:21.

it was able to pay Corporathon Tax it was able to pay Corporathon Tax

:08:22.:08:26.

at a level of 3%. Even before its recent trials, Apple declardd last

:08:27.:08:39.

year for in pre-tax profits of some ?47.5 billion -- 40 $.5 billion on

:08:40.:08:42.

which it paid some 9.9% of tax compared with group widening, of

:08:43.:08:46.

some 17.7 billion. It suggests taxes on profits on the way forward,

:08:47.:08:50.

particularly in these global industries where, as I say, there's

:08:51.:08:53.

the risk money can be scrolled aside. That said, I think it's

:08:54.:09:00.

important to say that the p`tent box, whilst purportedly in some ways

:09:01.:09:05.

giving preferential treatment to tax in this area, one we should look

:09:06.:09:10.

closely at, nonetheless has brought some significant benefits. One of

:09:11.:09:15.

the biggest problems facing many Internet businesses as they grow is

:09:16.:09:20.

to be able to quantify the value of their intellectual property rights

:09:21.:09:23.

and in many ways, the failure to do that means they don't get that

:09:24.:09:26.

opportunity to be able to collateralised their book v`lue to

:09:27.:09:32.

our for the future. We need to find a way and I think patent box has

:09:33.:09:39.

paid a successes in this regard Apologies for jumping the gtn, I'm

:09:40.:09:45.

slightly more interested to see the justification from the Opposition

:09:46.:09:48.

benches for their new clausd ten and as I say, I don't feel it would be

:09:49.:09:54.

the right way forward and that in the raw important debates to have in

:09:55.:09:59.

relation to the working is not just of legislation but ensuring we have

:10:00.:10:02.

a level playing field... Something H think

:10:03.:10:25.

particularly in these difficult economic times we can ill afford in

:10:26.:10:34.

this country. I worried the Right Honourable gentleman was saxing

:10:35.:10:40.

there was a hear hear from this side of the House also. You'd be

:10:41.:10:46.

surprised how loud we can bd and you'll see that in the coming months

:10:47.:10:51.

and years. It's absolutely time to have the debate about the bdst way

:10:52.:10:54.

to tax our businesses. Equally what the government claims

:10:55.:11:08.

it is doing and doing insufficiently through corporation tax, whhch is to

:11:09.:11:12.

support this does in this country better through taxation that works

:11:13.:11:19.

and taxation that recognises and gives incentives to business. I make

:11:20.:11:25.

it clear that the amendment I am speaking to, amendment 177, is very

:11:26.:11:34.

much a probing amendment. To sweep away corporation tax altogether It

:11:35.:11:38.

is very much to trigger that debate, a debate we should have as `

:11:39.:11:48.

country. The reality is that the government will continue to argue

:11:49.:11:52.

that a cut in corporation t`x will somehow boost growth but thd

:11:53.:11:58.

evidence for a cut below 20$ is simply not there. The government of

:11:59.:12:06.

failing to ask the question whether corporation tax actually works. As

:12:07.:12:11.

the right honourable gentlelan has mentioned, it is only a matter of

:12:12.:12:16.

time before no doubt we hear of the next scandal of the company managing

:12:17.:12:22.

to avoid paying corporation tax Last week it was Apple's de`l with

:12:23.:12:27.

Island and before that Google, before that Facebook, beford that

:12:28.:12:33.

Amazon. Even the Labour Party got in hot water for having managed to

:12:34.:12:38.

offset profits to reduce thdir corporation tax bill. Surelx those

:12:39.:12:40.

on the government side would recognise there is an issue. We have

:12:41.:12:52.

arguments about the moralitx of these corporations and we sometimes

:12:53.:12:58.

have outrage in this place, but that is not good enough and will not deal

:12:59.:13:04.

with the problem. We have to accept that while the government is making

:13:05.:13:11.

unnecessary and damaging cuts to HMRC, it makes it harder to

:13:12.:13:13.

challenge these companies, testing the limits of the law. Therd is an

:13:14.:13:22.

underlying, unwillingness to address corporation tax and its fitness for

:13:23.:13:29.

purpose. Regarding the realhty of multinational corporations hn the

:13:30.:13:36.

21st century. As Martin Sorrell the chief executive of WPP said in 013,

:13:37.:13:42.

during the Starbucks corpor`tion tax scandal, he said for many

:13:43.:13:49.

multinational companies, whdther to pay corporation tax is a qudstion of

:13:50.:13:54.

judgment, something to be ddcided according to PR perception `nd

:13:55.:13:59.

perhaps their rowing corpor`te social responsibility poliches, but

:14:00.:14:05.

not something decided by Her Majesty's Revenue and Custols, which

:14:06.:14:08.

it surely should be. As the right honourable gentleman made clear

:14:09.:14:14.

they should not be seen as ` left or right issue, it is an issue of

:14:15.:14:19.

practicality. In the Telegr`ph last week Allister Heath publishdd a

:14:20.:14:25.

piece entitled the Apple fi`sco shows why corporation tax is an

:14:26.:14:31.

outdated anachronism will stop Lord Lawson famously called for

:14:32.:14:36.

corporation tax to be a tax on revenue rather than profit. There

:14:37.:14:40.

are flaws with that but at least he was seeking to challenge thd status

:14:41.:14:46.

quo, which surely is outdatdd. On the other side of the spectrum, the

:14:47.:14:53.

Guardian, Oxfam and the excdllent tax Justice network have all

:14:54.:14:57.

previously highlighted the dase by which multinationals can avoid

:14:58.:15:02.

corporation tax altogether. There are ways we can better support

:15:03.:15:10.

business that we could have a tax system that works. This misses are

:15:11.:15:15.

crying for changes in the sxstem. Many businesses say the first thing

:15:16.:15:19.

they would like reformed as business rates, the second is VAT. There are

:15:20.:15:26.

industries who provide a huge amount to the British economy and pay a

:15:27.:15:30.

significant amount of tax who are not listen to because they `re not

:15:31.:15:35.

large corporations. I gave the example of the tourism industry and

:15:36.:15:41.

hospitality where a change to VAT would have a greater impact than

:15:42.:15:46.

tinkering with corporation tax in an attempt to grab the headlinds are

:15:47.:15:54.

supposedly supporting busindss. It is right to say a nurse has been

:15:55.:15:58.

said, there is no obvious solution, but surely it is time to look to

:15:59.:16:08.

have a solution to a sensibly and fairly taxation for businesses in

:16:09.:16:13.

the 21st century. My honour`ble friend the member for Westmorland

:16:14.:16:17.

has already appointed Sir Vhnce Cable, a former distinguishdd this

:16:18.:16:24.

secretary, to lead a review of corporation tax and business rates

:16:25.:16:27.

for my party, will contribute to this. Instead of simply tryhng to

:16:28.:16:35.

say the government are standing up for business, simply having yet more

:16:36.:16:41.

cuts to corporation tax will not truly deliver that and will not deal

:16:42.:16:47.

with the reality that we ard not collecting tax in an efficidnt way

:16:48.:16:51.

from companies who are now run in a very different way. Thank you. I

:16:52.:17:02.

speak to amendment 162 and new clauses ten and 11 in my nale and

:17:03.:17:09.

that of my honourable friends and new clause five, I support, which

:17:10.:17:14.

has been explained for the honourable member for Aberdden North

:17:15.:17:19.

and confirm 177 which has jtst been illustrated. Amendment 162 would

:17:20.:17:29.

remove clause 44 from the Bhll and halt the government cut to the rate

:17:30.:17:36.

of corporation tax to 17% bx 20 0. The government claimed that cutting

:17:37.:17:39.

corporation tax would make Britain a more 50 inward investors, would make

:17:40.:17:45.

Britain more competitive and would support growth and investment.

:17:46.:17:51.

Today, I would be grateful hf the minister could elaborate on the

:17:52.:17:56.

evidential basis of these claims. We know the theory, if you cut tax on

:17:57.:18:02.

profit there is more cash for companies to invest in expansion,

:18:03.:18:07.

RMT, labour and also we theoretically become more attractive

:18:08.:18:10.

to foreign businesses. The problem is it seems that somewhere hn the

:18:11.:18:15.

development of this theory, the Chancellor forgot to check the

:18:16.:18:22.

reality, as the figures do not support the age-old conserv`tive

:18:23.:18:25.

mantra. Figures provided by the House of Commons library show in

:18:26.:18:30.

1998 business investment as a percentage of GDP was 10.8%. In

:18:31.:18:39.

2000, it was 10.6%. The corporation tax rate in those years was 31% and

:18:40.:18:47.

30% respectively. In 2015 btsiness investment as a percentage of GDP

:18:48.:18:56.

was 9.7%. In 2015, business investment as a percentage of GDP

:18:57.:19:03.

was 9.7% and the rate of corporation tax was considerably lower than 2000

:19:04.:19:10.

at 20%. Why therefore were businesses in the state of

:19:11.:19:16.

investment frenzy in 2015 if indeed slashing corporation tax was the

:19:17.:19:22.

golden ticket to investment? I appreciate there are many f`ctors

:19:23.:19:24.

that affect the level of business investment. A comparison with the

:19:25.:19:31.

figures would suggest that ` lower rate of corporation tax does not

:19:32.:19:35.

correlate with a higher levdl of business investment. Let's look at

:19:36.:19:42.

different variable, foreign direct investment or FTI. The level of FDI

:19:43.:19:49.

in the UK has been steadily falling since 2005 with a few anomalies the

:19:50.:19:55.

way. This has coincided with a steady reduction in the ratd of

:19:56.:20:01.

corporation tax. In 2005, the level of FDI flows to the UK was 86.8

:20:02.:20:07.

billion and corporation tax was at 30%. In 2014, FDI was 27.8 billion

:20:08.:20:18.

and corporation tax at 21%. There could be many factors at pl`y but

:20:19.:20:22.

the figures again demonstrate there is no strong correlation between low

:20:23.:20:27.

rates of corporation tax and higher rates of investment and FDI. I

:20:28.:20:34.

appreciate low corporation tax rates may attract some companies to locate

:20:35.:20:39.

here because they will want to pay less tax, but attracting thdm to

:20:40.:20:42.

truly invest in the developlent of industry here as well as encouraging

:20:43.:20:48.

UK companies to flourish is another matter and this requires much more

:20:49.:20:56.

than just a tax break. By the government's own analysis this cut

:20:57.:21:02.

is expected to cost almost 1,000,000,020 20-21 in addition to

:21:03.:21:06.

the 2.5 billion cost in the same year of cutting corporation tax to

:21:07.:21:16.

19% from 2017. The IFS calctlated the government cuts to corporation

:21:17.:21:21.

tax of cost 10.8 billion a xear so the question arises, could the money

:21:22.:21:27.

be better spent to incentivhse much-needed investment and the

:21:28.:21:30.

minister will not be surprised to hear the opposition think so. Many

:21:31.:21:37.

businesses have cash. The House of Commons library provided figures

:21:38.:21:41.

showing the total amount of currency or cash reserves held by

:21:42.:21:44.

non-financial companies in the private sector is at a 20 ydar high

:21:45.:21:51.

at 581 billion. The problem is not that businesses need more c`sh, it

:21:52.:21:56.

is other factors in the economy that need improvement. Skills,

:21:57.:22:00.

infrastructure, innovation, productivity. 10.8 billion `s

:22:01.:22:07.

estimated by the IFS is a l`rge sum of money which I suggest wotld be

:22:08.:22:11.

better invested in filling gaps in our economy that are failing

:22:12.:22:15.

business, not engaging in a race to the bottom to become the world's

:22:16.:22:22.

next big immoral tax haven but providing building blocks for

:22:23.:22:26.

business to succeed and with this comes more revenue in taxes as

:22:27.:22:29.

businesses flourish and well-paid jobs are created. Labour has

:22:30.:22:36.

committed to such investment through a national investment bank `nd the

:22:37.:22:40.

bank of the North to address those areas left behind after dec`des of

:22:41.:22:45.

regional decline. Our national and regional development banks would

:22:46.:22:52.

unlock 500 billion of investment and lending to SMBs. Including 250

:22:53.:22:58.

billion of capital investment in infrastructure we need and to help

:22:59.:23:03.

prevent economic slowdown. The regional focus of development banks

:23:04.:23:08.

will enable the government to ensure investment and lending is spread

:23:09.:23:12.

around the country, not just siphoned into the South and benefits

:23:13.:23:17.

from local knowledge and expertise, insuring metal area in Brit`in is

:23:18.:23:21.

left behind. The bank of thd North would also unlock the potential of

:23:22.:23:27.

the North with a push to deliver the infrastructure and investment that

:23:28.:23:32.

it has been deprived of for too long. We have committed to dnsuring

:23:33.:23:37.

the workforce has the skills and business needs through rest`ting the

:23:38.:23:44.

EMA and maintenance grants for younger students, funded by a

:23:45.:23:48.

corporation tax rate of 21% will stop this is the intervention

:23:49.:23:52.

businesses are looking for. Policies with an impact on a company's

:23:53.:23:56.

ability to develop business, not simply cuts to the headline rate of

:23:57.:24:03.

corporation tax. To concludd my remarks on amendment 162, the cut to

:24:04.:24:11.

corporation tax is brought `bout by clause 45 is not the best use of

:24:12.:24:17.

public money in order to support businesses in the UK and I trge

:24:18.:24:21.

honourable members from all sides to join us in the lobby to votd in

:24:22.:24:28.

favour of our amendment. Turning to amendment new clause ten relating to

:24:29.:24:32.

the Patent Box, the honourable member for the Cities of London and

:24:33.:24:37.

Westminster made fantastic comments earlier. The amendment would require

:24:38.:24:43.

the Chancellor to publish an independent review of the efficacy

:24:44.:24:46.

and value for money of the legislation. The report would have

:24:47.:24:52.

to assess the size and nature of the companies taking advantage of the

:24:53.:24:57.

Patent Box legislation. Secondly, the impact of the legislation on

:24:58.:25:03.

research and innovation in the UK, including supporting evidence and

:25:04.:25:09.

third, the cost effectiveness of the Patent Box legislation in

:25:10.:25:11.

incentivising research and development compared to othdr

:25:12.:25:15.

policies. My honourable fridnds and I are supportive of governmdnt

:25:16.:25:21.

action to incentivise research and development but we are not convinced

:25:22.:25:25.

the Patent Box legislation has achieved this and we are not alone.

:25:26.:25:30.

Many have criticised the Patent Box even before its introduction in

:25:31.:25:39.

2012. The IFS stated it was poorly targeted at research becausd it

:25:40.:25:42.

targets income that results from patent technology not the rdsearch

:25:43.:25:47.

itself, to the extent that ` Patent Box reduces the tax rate for

:25:48.:25:51.

activity that would have occurred in the absence of government

:25:52.:25:54.

intervention and the policy includes a dead weight cost. Furtherlore a

:25:55.:26:03.

respected economist who belheves in government intervention to support

:26:04.:26:06.

research and development made the statement that it is a scam with no

:26:07.:26:10.

effect on innovation, the P`tent Box.

:26:11.:26:15.

Now, let me be very clear. The Shadow Chancellor has ripped

:26:16.:26:21.

heatedly called for more intervention in this area btt we are

:26:22.:26:27.

not convinced the patents boxes the most effective way of doing so. It

:26:28.:26:33.

costs the exchequer approxilately 1 billion per year and there has been

:26:34.:26:36.

no evidence from the governlent that I am away that demonstrates its

:26:37.:26:42.

effectiveness. If the Minister can provide any today I would bd most

:26:43.:26:48.

grateful. Interestingly, a new study from Kings College London and the

:26:49.:26:51.

Medical Research Council shows that for everyone pound spent on public

:26:52.:26:58.

medical research five it reset increases by 99p. An increase in

:26:59.:27:03.

public medical funding by 500 million, half the cost of the Peyton

:27:04.:27:09.

walks, would boost Private ledical research- other ?499 million. This

:27:10.:27:14.

compares quite staggeringly to the so-called dead weight loss of the

:27:15.:27:19.

Peyton box. Interestingly sdarch, I am sure the Minister will agree I

:27:20.:27:25.

hope the Minister will agred that an independent assessment of the

:27:26.:27:29.

efficacy of the Peter and bop is will clarify for both those in the

:27:30.:27:38.

opposition the best week to achieve our shared goal. Moving on to number

:27:39.:27:50.

11. We do not oppose the government proposals within this bill hn

:27:51.:27:54.

relation to the power to make regulations about the taxathon of

:27:55.:27:59.

securitisation companies. However, we do think it timely for the

:28:00.:28:04.

government to conduct a revhew in relation to regulation presdnt in

:28:05.:28:07.

the industry saw any loopholes and the stock of practices can be

:28:08.:28:13.

eradicated. I am sure the honourable members know it was the nondxistence

:28:14.:28:17.

of the regulation of security structures which magnified `

:28:18.:28:23.

medium-sized crisis in the TS real estate market into a fully fledged

:28:24.:28:28.

riding banking crisis by 2008. There is a real worry on sides of this

:28:29.:28:34.

House that it has been business back to usual for our banking centre but

:28:35.:28:40.

the lessons learned from thd 20 8 crash, if any were learned `t all,

:28:41.:28:46.

have long been forgotten. In the default swaps market there has been

:28:47.:28:51.

large-scale repackaging and rebranding of toxic securitx

:28:52.:28:55.

projects which arguably caused the crisis in the first place. @ crisis

:28:56.:29:00.

that wasn't truly paid for by the banking sector and financial

:29:01.:29:05.

operators who caused it. It was shored up on the backs of the people

:29:06.:29:09.

of this country and, worst of all, the poor and the vulnerable.

:29:10.:29:15.

Furthermore, it was used as an excuse by this government to slash

:29:16.:29:22.

and burn our public services. Securitisation works by protecting

:29:23.:29:30.

assets whether sub-prime mortgages or special purpose vehicles and

:29:31.:29:33.

usually the profits or cash flows received from those cash flows back

:29:34.:29:37.

through the special-purpose vehicle to investors who have required on is

:29:38.:29:43.

in that special-purpose vehhcle The residual amounts are small compared

:29:44.:29:47.

to the sums that are paid through to the investors. However, as with all

:29:48.:29:53.

of these artificial financi`l structures, it is possible to

:29:54.:29:57.

manipulate those amounts for tax purposes and, indeed, credit default

:29:58.:30:04.

swaps, the most famous of the securitisation family, are

:30:05.:30:07.

deliberately flexible so as to manipulate the tax outcome. If we do

:30:08.:30:12.

not regulate this sector carefully now in quite simply it will become

:30:13.:30:15.

the drain through which the world will launder its dirty transactions.

:30:16.:30:20.

Especially with our exit from the EU we must ensure our fragile

:30:21.:30:28.

regulations are all depleted. This amendment deals with the review of

:30:29.:30:32.

taxation on security companx sufficiently. We would like the

:30:33.:30:37.

Minister to go much further and provide for a full assessment of all

:30:38.:30:41.

aspects of the regulation of securitisation companies thdreby

:30:42.:30:47.

showing unequivocally that the government has a commitment towards

:30:48.:30:53.

ensuring the tax arrangements of securitisation structures are

:30:54.:30:56.

regulated. I will not be dividing the House on new clause 11 today but

:30:57.:31:01.

I hope the Minister will make a commitment to these points today. To

:31:02.:31:05.

conclude on my remarks Labotr cannot support the cuts to corporation tax

:31:06.:31:16.

we have debated today and I will therefore be dividing the House on

:31:17.:31:22.

amendment 162 and I would lhke to move amendment 160 two. I whll seek

:31:23.:31:31.

to be brief. In new clause ten I am in evidence in favour of evhdence

:31:32.:31:41.

-based policy testing. The patent box legislation and tax bre`k has

:31:42.:31:44.

been helpful which may be true but we do not now. We know the National

:31:45.:31:49.

Audit Office looked at 200 tax reliefs and find the Treasury was

:31:50.:31:55.

only monitoring efficacious and is fewer than 300 of them. I do not

:31:56.:32:02.

think the patent box was part of that. I will give way. Something of

:32:03.:32:07.

a misunderstanding on exactly what the patent box was designed to do.

:32:08.:32:14.

It was not designed to promote research and development as some

:32:15.:32:19.

other incentives have come through year-on-year on budgets are designed

:32:20.:32:22.

to do. It is very much seen as trying to incentivise those

:32:23.:32:27.

companies at the second stage. In other words, companies that already

:32:28.:32:33.

had something very difficult to quantify, intellectual propdrty To

:32:34.:32:36.

be able to do so rather than directly at the research and

:32:37.:32:40.

development site. It is slightly unfair to suggest it is no dvidence

:32:41.:32:44.

that this has worked becausd it is being looked at in a differdnt light

:32:45.:32:49.

patent to that intended by those who put the box into play. I agree it is

:32:50.:32:55.

to help companies in their darly stages but with the fluctuation of

:32:56.:32:59.

tying those company should be passing through the pipelind and we

:33:00.:33:01.

should see the fruit of these endeavours helped by taxpaydr

:33:02.:33:05.

support. You could not look on you to see if it is effective or not

:33:06.:33:09.

that it has been around for a fuel use so we can. Or that on to 17 I

:33:10.:33:18.

was amazed to hear him say he would be per to examine the questhon of

:33:19.:33:26.

tax rather than corporation tax I have long advocated we should be

:33:27.:33:30.

looking at that because precisely of tax avoidance. If it be the case

:33:31.:33:37.

that Apple has been avoiding tax in the United Kingdom it would not have

:33:38.:33:41.

been able that to do nearly so successful than if we had a turn of

:33:42.:33:49.

attacks rather than corporation tax. I am amused. He says tonight the

:33:50.:33:54.

leader party has set up the review of corporation tax yet he h`s a

:33:55.:34:02.

amendment which would abolish corporation tax completely for the

:34:03.:34:08.

financial year 2017. Not brhnging a turnover tax instead just abolish it

:34:09.:34:12.

completely. It seems a strange amendment to put forward. As I think

:34:13.:34:18.

I made clear, it was a probhng amendment entirely to make that

:34:19.:34:24.

point. We share the view th`t it is flawed to be reducing corporation

:34:25.:34:27.

tax but this amendment was to say we need to do it any better wax. We

:34:28.:34:32.

will not be voting on it but it is time we had that debate and put

:34:33.:34:37.

something better in place. H have two say it is a strange way to do a

:34:38.:34:42.

probing amendment. I am not saying it is wrong, that is not for me to

:34:43.:34:48.

say. To put forward new clatses or amendments which the two produced

:34:49.:34:52.

the evidence which presumably the evidence his party will be looking

:34:53.:34:56.

at in the review, if the Hotse could be producing it it will help all of

:34:57.:35:04.

us in policy-making. I now turn to new clause five. It is interesting

:35:05.:35:09.

that I think the SNP tonight reveals its hand as not being much concerned

:35:10.:35:16.

about greenhouse gas emissions from oil production, let alone from

:35:17.:35:20.

burning oil. We saw this thd same thing last year in the debate on air

:35:21.:35:26.

passenger duty. The SNP werd all in favour of having loads more people

:35:27.:35:29.

flying despite what it does to the environment. In terms of thd ten of

:35:30.:35:37.

the honourable member from Aberdeen's remarks, she wants

:35:38.:35:42.

taxation of oil and gas cut. She's arguing indirectly for another one

:35:43.:35:49.

from Scotland from English taxpayers when the SNP has the power to put up

:35:50.:35:53.

tax in Scotland and fails to do so. They want English taxpayers to

:35:54.:35:58.

continue giving them a biggdr bundle. 50% of the supply chain

:35:59.:36:03.

companies who would have bedn affected by this are actually based

:36:04.:36:08.

side of the border. This is for company side of the border `nd

:36:09.:36:12.

across the UK. The Scottish Government has been good at reaching

:36:13.:36:17.

its climate change targets. The only problem is the Conservative

:36:18.:36:20.

government are getting in otr way. I get here higher honourable friend

:36:21.:36:26.

say that and I also heard the member saying she did not realise that was

:36:27.:36:29.

the case when she was moving for the amendment. I do support new clause

:36:30.:36:35.

five tonight and hope it gods through. It looks attractivd to me

:36:36.:36:39.

because I hope there will bd a situation where oil and gas taxation

:36:40.:36:46.

are increased appropriately. We do not have the evidence, so ldts out

:36:47.:36:54.

the review. I will start, if I may, by responding to amendments in new

:36:55.:36:56.

clauses raised by the opposhtion before briefly turning to the

:36:57.:37:01.

amendments that the governmdnt has table to clauses 63 and 65. I am

:37:02.:37:08.

just removing these. Someond slightly taller had the dispatch box

:37:09.:37:13.

before. Turning to amendment 16 tabled by the opposition whhch would

:37:14.:37:18.

require the government to rdmove clause 45 from the Bill and

:37:19.:37:24.

obviously this would cut thd rate of corporation tax, rather, stop the

:37:25.:37:29.

cut going forward. Clause 44 cut the rate of corporation tax to 70% with

:37:30.:37:34.

effect from the 1st of April 20 20. No corporation tax raise will infect

:37:35.:37:44.

investment. It enables comp`nies to take on new staff, increase wages or

:37:45.:37:49.

change prices. This is bornd out on receipts data. Corporation tax

:37:50.:37:56.

receipts have risen more th`n 2 % since 2010 despite loading

:37:57.:37:59.

corporation tax rates. The Treasury and HMRC have also modelled the

:38:00.:38:04.

economic impact of the corporation tax cuts delivered since 2000 and

:38:05.:38:10.

those announced at budget 2016. This model suggests the cut is good

:38:11.:38:18.

increase long-running GDB bx 1% I am just going to finish on this

:38:19.:38:25.

point. We were asked has thhs business investment grown? We were

:38:26.:38:28.

challenged by the Honourabld lady. Business investment has increased

:38:29.:38:35.

30% since 2010. She also mentioned if EIA. Foreign direct investment.

:38:36.:38:41.

Only last week the Department for International trade reported a

:38:42.:38:44.

record number of inward invdstment projects in 2015/16. Again H do not

:38:45.:38:51.

think we can agree with her criticism. The minister mentions the

:38:52.:38:59.

fact that the Treasury has lodelled the impact of tax cuts. Is this the

:39:00.:39:03.

same Treasury model that prddicted the collapse of the UK economy in

:39:04.:39:11.

the hours after Brexit? Givdn the SNP track record on predicthng the

:39:12.:39:16.

oil price I would think cardfully about digging in. I am going to

:39:17.:39:20.

continue and move on to the points made by the honourable lady. Turning

:39:21.:39:27.

to amendment 177, Madam Deptty is because, I know the comments by the

:39:28.:39:32.

member from Wolverhampton South West who is quite correct in his analysis

:39:33.:39:36.

of what that commitment with do I accept the point made by thd

:39:37.:39:40.

honourable member for Leeds North West that it is a holding alendment.

:39:41.:39:45.

It would indeed have the effect of cancelling the charge for

:39:46.:39:52.

corporation tax in the 2017/18 financial year depriving thd

:39:53.:39:56.

government of ?45 billion of corporation tax receipts in that

:39:57.:40:00.

year alone. I take the point he wants to see support for sm`ll

:40:01.:40:05.

businesses but the business rates package will come into effect next

:40:06.:40:10.

spring. For fairly obvious reasons that sort of loss to the Exchequer

:40:11.:40:15.

is not something we can support Turning to new clause five which was

:40:16.:40:21.

tabled by the honourable melber for Cowdenbeath but introduced by the

:40:22.:40:23.

honourable lady the member for Aberdeen North. New clause five

:40:24.:40:30.

causes a publishing of the review of corporation tax rates and investment

:40:31.:40:34.

allowances applicable to oil and gas producing companies in the TK. The

:40:35.:40:38.

UK Government remains 100% behind the oil and gas sector and the

:40:39.:40:44.

thousands of workers and falilies it supports. I do not think a further

:40:45.:40:49.

review into oil and gas taxds would serve any herbicide this tile as the

:40:50.:40:52.

government has recently carried out such an exercise. In 2014 the

:40:53.:41:00.

government published a plan to republish the tax regime. The is

:41:01.:41:06.

support for the objective to maximise the oil and gas recovery

:41:07.:41:11.

while ensuring a fair return on those resources for the nathon.

:41:12.:41:19.

One of the things this government talked about in terms of support for

:41:20.:41:24.

the oil and gas industry was offering guarantees to comp`nies

:41:25.:41:28.

experiencing financial stress. Can she tell the House how that process

:41:29.:41:33.

is going on and if any comp`nies have received loan guaranteds? I

:41:34.:41:37.

know that there is an issue that has been explored in some detail before

:41:38.:41:42.

in committee, so I am not going to respond to it now. But I want to

:41:43.:41:47.

make this important point, that the changes introduced by this Finance

:41:48.:41:51.

Bill to choose the right conditions to maximise economic recovery of the

:41:52.:41:56.

UK oil and gas resources by lowering the sector's specific tax r`tes

:41:57.:42:01.

updating the current allowances system and expanding the activity

:42:02.:42:04.

that can generate financial relief. An important point to make, that has

:42:05.:42:08.

been made by many people who work in the sector and by investors in the

:42:09.:42:15.

sector is that it has often been stated that stability and cdrtainty

:42:16.:42:19.

in the tax regime are major factors in making investment decisions and

:42:20.:42:23.

therefore, for that reason we don't think another review is right. I

:42:24.:42:29.

could create further uncert`inty at a time when it would not be right

:42:30.:42:33.

for the industry and it could delay investment, so for that reason, I

:42:34.:42:36.

would urge members to reject new clause five. I am going to love on

:42:37.:42:44.

to new clause 11 now. I will briefly address new clause 11 table by the

:42:45.:42:49.

honourable lady for Salford and Eccles. This proposes an independent

:42:50.:42:54.

review into the efficacy of the tax of securitisation companies. The

:42:55.:42:56.

government doesn't consider it necessary because of the following

:42:57.:43:02.

reasons. Regulations introdtced under a Labour government in 20 6

:43:03.:43:08.

Speyside to the tax of securitisation companies and they

:43:09.:43:13.

include several that avoid tax. The HMRC review of these regulations to

:43:14.:43:17.

reflect recent changes to accounting standards and market developments. A

:43:18.:43:22.

consultative working group lade up of independent professional adviser

:43:23.:43:27.

specialising in securitisathon, HM Treasury officials and HMRC

:43:28.:43:30.

technical specialists has mdt four times since September 2015 `nd

:43:31.:43:36.

looked at a range of issues. Revised regulations developed with the group

:43:37.:43:39.

are expected to be published in draft for public consultation later

:43:40.:43:44.

this year or early next year and is this review is already underway we

:43:45.:43:47.

don't feel that a further assessment is required. Turning to govdrnment

:43:48.:43:56.

amendments 152, 153, the government has tabled clause 60 three. Clause

:43:57.:44:01.

60p makes changes to ensure that the patient box operates in lind with

:44:02.:44:03.

the newly agreed international framework resulting from thd OECD

:44:04.:44:09.

-based erosion profit shift action plan and is currently draftdd with

:44:10.:44:12.

the changes made could result in different definitions of thd term,

:44:13.:44:16.

qualifying as a dual profit applying to the same part of the patdnts box

:44:17.:44:21.

legislation and the changes made by the amendments will address this

:44:22.:44:25.

problem by providing a coherent and consistent definition for that

:44:26.:44:29.

phrase. Turning to the opposition new clause ten, a brief comlent New

:44:30.:44:34.

clause ten would require thd Chancellor to publish from six

:44:35.:44:40.

months from the passing of this Act an independent report and assessment

:44:41.:44:42.

of the value for money and dfficacy of the box. The government doesn't

:44:43.:44:48.

support this new clause. We have only now had full data for the first

:44:49.:44:53.

year of the patents box and as such the report would not take into

:44:54.:44:55.

account revisions to the regime made. The proposed one-off

:44:56.:45:00.

publication would fall short of the plans the government alreadx has in

:45:01.:45:04.

place to publish annual, official statistics on the patents box. She

:45:05.:45:11.

mentioned, the honourable l`dy mentioned in her amendment that she

:45:12.:45:16.

wishes to see more evidence of the impact of the patents box. Ht is

:45:17.:45:22.

worth noting, for example, that GS K attributed a ?275 million investment

:45:23.:45:27.

to the UK competitive tax rdgime and specifically mentioned the patent

:45:28.:45:34.

box as a reason to invest. There are number of government amendmdnts

:45:35.:45:42.

tabled. 154-160, 65 and schddule ten around hybrid mismatches. They

:45:43.:45:50.

involve legislating to counteract avoidance involving hybrid

:45:51.:45:52.

mismatches. The amendments the government have tabled make changes

:45:53.:45:55.

to the legislation to ensurd that it works as intended and is not create

:45:56.:46:00.

unintended impacts in inter`ction with other areas of the UK tax

:46:01.:46:05.

system and these amendments are necessary to secure the fordcast

:46:06.:46:09.

viewed from this measure. Jtst before I close, a typically

:46:10.:46:13.

thoughtful intervention frol My Honourable Friend the member for the

:46:14.:46:20.

Cities of London and Westminster. He mentioned turnover versus profits

:46:21.:46:25.

tax, and it is worth noting I think that a turnover tax can produce

:46:26.:46:30.

unfair outcomes such as pen`lising businesses to make a loss and those

:46:31.:46:35.

in competitive markets but ht is an issue to which he might well return.

:46:36.:46:43.

To conclude, the government is committed to making our tax system

:46:44.:46:45.

fundamentally fair, ensuring that people and businesses pay what PO

:46:46.:46:51.

and contribute to the success of our nation. I will have to reject the

:46:52.:46:54.

amendments and new clauses tabled by the opposition. The question is that

:46:55.:47:05.

new clause five B read a second time. As many as are that opinion

:47:06.:47:12.

say aye, on the contrary know. Division, clear the lobbies.

:47:13.:48:10.

As many as are of that opinhon say aye, contrary no.

:48:11.:01:16.

Order, order. The ayes to the right 249, the noes to the left 204. The

:01:17.:01:44.

ayes to the right 249. The noes to the left 204. The nose habit. The

:01:45.:01:59.

nose habit. -- the noes havd it I call on the movement of the

:02:00.:02:06.

amendment formally. The amendment is that the amendment be made, as many

:02:07.:02:13.

of the opinion say. Division cleared the lobby.

:02:14.:04:05.

The question is that amendmdnt 62 he made. As many as are of that

:04:06.:04:19.

opinion say aye, of the contrary, it now. For the nose Mark Spencer and

:04:20.:04:23.

Graeme Stewart. The Ayes to the right, 252. The Noes

:04:24.:15:35.

to the left, 309. The eyes of the right, 252. The Noes to the left,

:15:36.:15:42.

309. -- the Ayes to the right. The noes have it, the noes have it. With

:15:43.:15:53.

the leave of the House I sh`ll call the Minister to move the government

:15:54.:15:58.

amendments in this group together formally. They are amendments 1 2,

:15:59.:16:15.

153, 129, 154, 31, 155, 33-49, 56, 61-113, 157, 155, 2000 100s of me

:16:16.:16:28.

seven, 158, one 59-1 160, and 1 9 - 131. The Minister to move. The

:16:29.:16:35.

question is that those government amendments being made. As m`ny as

:16:36.:16:41.

are of that opinion say aye, contrary no the Ayes have it, The

:16:42.:16:51.

Ayes have it. We now come to new clause seven with which it will be

:16:52.:16:56.

convenient to consider the other new clauses and amendments listdd on the

:16:57.:17:01.

selection paper, Mr Roger Mtllin to move new clause seven. Thank you,

:17:02.:17:06.

Madam Deputy Speaker. To those with little knowledge of Scottish Limited

:17:07.:17:11.

partnerships, it may seem strange that I rise to move new clatse seven

:17:12.:17:15.

in this House in my name and those of my colleagues, but despite what

:17:16.:17:18.

the name may suggest Scottish limited partnerships have lhttle

:17:19.:17:22.

connection to Scotland and plunder the Scottish Parliament. Thdy were

:17:23.:17:29.

introduced in 1907 by the Chancellor of the day, Herbert Asquith. Despite

:17:30.:17:33.

rumours to the contrary, I was not present at the debate at thd time.

:17:34.:17:40.

It is certainly true that the regulation, the operation and the

:17:41.:17:45.

dissolution of Scottish limhted partnerships remain the exclusive

:17:46.:17:49.

preserve of Westminster, hence, raising this new clause in this

:17:50.:17:52.

House. Scottish limited partnerships are their own distinct legal

:17:53.:17:58.

personality and as a result they can for example hold assets, borrow

:17:59.:18:03.

money and enter into contracts. However, Asquith could never have

:18:04.:18:08.

conceived that they would bdcome a financial vehicle abused by

:18:09.:18:10.

international criminals and tax dodgers. Great credit must go to the

:18:11.:18:20.

journalists of the Herald ndwspaper, particularly David Leask for

:18:21.:18:24.

doggedly uncovering the truth about SLPs. Isn't it great that for once

:18:25.:18:29.

we can praise journalism of the highest calibre delving into

:18:30.:18:32.

important matters rather th`n just dealing in tittle tattle? Some users

:18:33.:18:39.

of SLPs no doubt operate appropriately and responsibly but it

:18:40.:18:43.

is claimed that up to 95% of them are mere tax evasion vehiclds and

:18:44.:18:49.

included for criminal assets. SLPs, whilst they may be registerdd in

:18:50.:18:54.

Scotland are often owned by partners based in the Caribbean and other

:18:55.:18:56.

jurisdictions, which ensure ownership secrecy and low or no tax

:18:57.:19:02.

regimes. People operating ottside the UK are exploiting opaqud

:19:03.:19:08.

ownership structures to hidd their true ownership. Brokers in countries

:19:09.:19:15.

like Ukraine and Belarus ard specifically marketing SLPs as

:19:16.:19:24.

Scottish 0% tax bonds. And ` number of SLPs has been growing ap`ce. Data

:19:25.:19:31.

from companies House revealdd again by the Herald newspaper shows 2 ,000

:19:32.:19:37.

were in place by the autumn of 015 and that new registrations have been

:19:38.:19:42.

increasing by 40%, year-on-xear since 2008. To give an example of

:19:43.:19:48.

what can happen, in 2014, allegations emerged that SLPs had

:19:49.:19:54.

been used to funnel $1 billhon out of banks in the former Sovidt

:19:55.:20:03.

republic of Moldova. The usd of SLPs in a bank account in an EU country

:20:04.:20:07.

allows dodgy groups from, for example, the ex-Soviet Union, the

:20:08.:20:14.

ability to move their ill gotten gains to tax havens under the cloak

:20:15.:20:20.

of respectability. I am aware that the Scottish Government's Fhnance

:20:21.:20:26.

Secretary, Derek Mackay, has reckoned to the UK Government on

:20:27.:20:29.

SLPs. He has sensibly pointdd out, and I quote, "It is critical that

:20:30.:20:35.

due diligence checks are able to be made when SLPs I initially

:20:36.:20:38.

registered and when there are changes in partners, where the SLP

:20:39.:20:50.

does not comply with the relevant legislation." He went on to point

:20:51.:20:54.

out that the threat of serious organised crime does not respect

:20:55.:20:56.

borders, and with significant increase in cyber crime it hs

:20:57.:21:01.

essential that we take everx step open to us to reduce this threat as

:21:02.:21:08.

much as possible. To that end, are amendment seeks an urgent rdview of

:21:09.:21:13.

SLPs and also seeks a review that will, very importantly, include

:21:14.:21:18.

taking evidence from the Scottish Government and HMRC, and from

:21:19.:21:23.

interested charities. We have crafted this amendment in the hope

:21:24.:21:27.

that it can attract cross-p`rty support. I can see no reason why

:21:28.:21:31.

anyone would wish to oppose a review of this nature. I cannot sed anyone

:21:32.:21:38.

other than of course those who are interested in encouraging

:21:39.:21:44.

criminality or tax evasion. And so, I would urge the Minister to accept

:21:45.:21:49.

our new clause. I should also like to pass comment on the amendment in

:21:50.:21:52.

the name of the right honourable lady for Don Valley. I hope you will

:21:53.:22:00.

forgive me if I missed him saying it, but sub two of the new clause is

:22:01.:22:10.

it to do with the nature of SLPs that that amendment does not include

:22:11.:22:13.

the government of Wales and the government of Northern Irel`nd? They

:22:14.:22:22.

will be registered in Scotl`nd and what they will have is ownership in

:22:23.:22:26.

tax havens throughout the world which operate differently, given the

:22:27.:22:31.

rate was set up in 1907, whhch is, as far as I am aware, it has never

:22:32.:22:34.

been reviewed since then in any significant detail. I thank the

:22:35.:22:38.

honourable member for his intervention. He's making a powerful

:22:39.:22:46.

case that some of these SLPs are used for criminal money-laundering

:22:47.:22:50.

purposes. These are serious crimes which should be reported. H`s he

:22:51.:22:54.

reported them? Isn't this an enforcement issue? I think, would it

:22:55.:23:00.

be better if we could get the government to do the detaildd

:23:01.:23:03.

scrutiny to enable them to dnact the kind of action that is necessary as

:23:04.:23:09.

macro I think their voice in this would be far more powerful than my

:23:10.:23:14.

own. As I turn to the honourable lady for Don Valley and say that we

:23:15.:23:20.

shall be supporting her amendment, I'm sure she will have much more to

:23:21.:23:23.

say about it, but hers is a very modest amendment encouraging

:23:24.:23:30.

much-needed country by country reporting by corporations, `nd I

:23:31.:23:33.

look forward to hearing her remarks, that she can be sure that she has

:23:34.:23:38.

the full support of these bdnches for her actions, and similarly, we

:23:39.:23:43.

hope that the opposition will be moving their new clause 13, which we

:23:44.:23:49.

will also intend to support. This whole section dealing with tax

:23:50.:23:55.

evasion is very important, `nd it is very important that the UK `s a

:23:56.:23:59.

whole lives up to its responsibilities in making sure that

:24:00.:24:07.

we do not come covered by the name of encouraging tax dodgers, at this

:24:08.:24:15.

time in our country. If I could just mention the remarkable and brave

:24:16.:24:22.

journalist Roberto Saviani who has been exposing the model is criminal

:24:23.:24:28.

world of the Italian Mafia. In a recent article in the Telegraph

:24:29.:24:34.

newspaper, he warned that the UK was effectively allying what he called

:24:35.:24:38.

criminal capitalism to thrive. Surely look we must try to dnsure

:24:39.:24:45.

that that is not the case. The new clause seven, review of tax

:24:46.:24:49.

treatment of Scottish limitdd partnerships. The question hs that

:24:50.:24:54.

the new clause be read a second time. Caroline Flint. Thank you very

:24:55.:25:03.

much, Madam Deputy Speaker. In moving my new amendment, 144, I am

:25:04.:25:08.

grateful for the chance to put the case for large multinationals to

:25:09.:25:13.

incorporate public country by country reporting in the UK so that

:25:14.:25:17.

we can all gain greater inshght into the trading activities that

:25:18.:25:22.

determine the amount of corporation tax paid. It was as a new mdmber of

:25:23.:25:25.

the Public Accounts Committde that in February I heard first-h`nd that

:25:26.:25:31.

Google and HMRC try to expl`in how ?130 million represented a good deal

:25:32.:25:36.

after a decade worth of unp`id taxes and reasons to justify nonp`yment.

:25:37.:25:40.

As a cross-party committee of this House, we felt that the way global

:25:41.:25:46.

multinationals play the system denies a fair take for HMRC, which

:25:47.:25:50.

impact on public services and is very unfair to those British

:25:51.:25:58.

taxpayers and businesses to whom such complicated organisation of

:25:59.:26:01.

their tax affairs is not an option. I will give way to the honotrable

:26:02.:26:03.

gentleman. I am grateful to her for giving way

:26:04.:26:19.

but isn't the money from our constituents that fund the profits

:26:20.:26:23.

which generate the taxation which ought to be paid to the revdnue I

:26:24.:26:31.

think, I congratulate him on his promotion, he is absolutely right.

:26:32.:26:37.

It is almost a double whammx. In good faith customers of these

:26:38.:26:42.

companies pay for their services and expect as ordinary taxpayers as well

:26:43.:26:46.

as consumers that these big companies play fair by them amply

:26:47.:26:50.

said why the company in which they operate. The Public Accounts

:26:51.:26:55.

Committee is not on our own in worrying about the way in which

:26:56.:26:58.

these companies organise thdmselves. Around the world the public and the

:26:59.:27:08.

companies are questioning the multinationals trading activities in

:27:09.:27:11.

individual countries. The problem is not one can find to check companies

:27:12.:27:20.

like Google but their massive global presence to date has exposed the

:27:21.:27:27.

fault lines of the old-fashhoned tax structure which has not kept up with

:27:28.:27:30.

today's online business world. Many of today's big names were not always

:27:31.:27:37.

so big or profitable. And the Labour government the investigation into

:27:38.:27:40.

Google began and the Coalithon Government continued the work to get

:27:41.:27:44.

on top of these business models nationally and internationally. Tax

:27:45.:27:55.

models are not easy. No sooner has a tax loophole being closed and

:27:56.:28:00.

another one opens up. I am grateful to my right honourable friend for

:28:01.:28:04.

giving way. And the way she has dealt with this particular hssue

:28:05.:28:06.

over a long period of time. That she shared my concern that when the

:28:07.:28:10.

government has tried to takd the initiative through the diverted

:28:11.:28:13.

profits tax it has not delivered the revenues that would be expected

:28:14.:28:17.

Google itself does not pay ` great deal through the diverted profits

:28:18.:28:23.

tax so clearly a measure like this would help make countries do the

:28:24.:28:29.

right thing. I very much hope so. I think transparency is important in

:28:30.:28:34.

making sure rules we apply have some right. It does seem sometimds that

:28:35.:28:40.

we are trying to catch jellx. This whole debate has brought into

:28:41.:28:43.

question the legal as well `s the model difference between tax evasion

:28:44.:28:49.

and tax avoidance. Often cotntries rightly defend themselves on the

:28:50.:28:54.

terms of working within the rules but often civil servants ard caught

:28:55.:28:58.

out by clever manipulation of the rules which is not illegal but

:28:59.:29:03.

cannot he said to be in the spirit of what was expected. I havd no

:29:04.:29:08.

illusions about the perfect tax system. Keeping one step ahdad is a

:29:09.:29:15.

never-ending task for pathologies. I welcome tax reporting to HMRC which

:29:16.:29:21.

is now up and running. I agree with the ministers announcement that

:29:22.:29:24.

those who advise individuals and companies on their tax affahrs will

:29:25.:29:28.

be subject to greater accountability for their actions when wrongdoing is

:29:29.:29:38.

and are covered. With the stpport of Public Accounts Committee colleagues

:29:39.:29:40.

and cross-party support across the House I introduced my ten mhnute

:29:41.:29:46.

rule Bill to legislate for country by country reporting in March. The

:29:47.:29:51.

backing I received spurred le on to try to amend the Finance Bill in

:29:52.:29:55.

June which gained the support of eight Parliamentary parties. By all

:29:56.:30:00.

party, Labour, and I thank the front bench past and present for their

:30:01.:30:07.

support. There are SNP, Libdral Democrats, light comedy, thd UUP,

:30:08.:30:15.

the SDLP, the Green party and the number of Conservative MPs, too

:30:16.:30:21.

Oxfam, Christian Aid, the one campaign joined our efforts in

:30:22.:30:27.

adding an important and necdssary reason for the argument. I

:30:28.:30:33.

congratulate my honourable friend for her sterling work in re`ding

:30:34.:30:37.

this up the agenda. Would she not agree if the government werd to

:30:38.:30:40.

adopt this agenda it would be setting the tone for other parts of

:30:41.:30:45.

the world. We have had the lot of interest in Europe and elsewhere for

:30:46.:30:48.

the work that has been done in Parliament. I agree with my friend

:30:49.:30:55.

and I commend her work as chair of this committee and the work she has

:30:56.:30:58.

done with other Public Accotnts Committee is another countrhes. Here

:30:59.:31:03.

is an appetite for this and we can lead the way from our House of

:31:04.:31:06.

Commons committee but we hope to date we can give some added muscle

:31:07.:31:11.

to the government to lead the way in this important area too. I thought

:31:12.:31:17.

about those charities, thosd organisations working in thd

:31:18.:31:23.

development sphere. I am sedking tax Justice here but also in those

:31:24.:31:28.

developing countries who lose out, too. If developing countries got

:31:29.:31:31.

their fair share of taxes would vastly outstrip what is currently

:31:32.:31:36.

available through aid. The lack of transparency is one of the lajor

:31:37.:31:41.

stumbling blocks to the self sufficiently. Tax experts Rhchard

:31:42.:31:50.

Murphy and Julian mu QC havd helped me make the case and also gdt the

:31:51.:31:54.

wording right to amend legislation. I think it demonstrates the

:31:55.:31:57.

widespread view that boulder measures to hold multinationals to

:31:58.:32:04.

account is necessary. I givd way. I am very grateful. Is the bigger

:32:05.:32:10.

issue queries should the profit he fairly stark, where was the value

:32:11.:32:15.

added, who did the work takd place? We'll is the intellectual property

:32:16.:32:19.

residing? Getting transparency is one thing but you can still get

:32:20.:32:23.

transparency for an answer we do not like. I think there is a debate here

:32:24.:32:27.

about where best to recruit the money for those who are eight wider

:32:28.:32:35.

debate for another day. It hs partly about addressing that. At the heart

:32:36.:32:39.

of all this whatever system we set up in which to identify what is the

:32:40.:32:45.

first contribution for business transparency has to be the heart of

:32:46.:32:49.

it. I hope that my amendment today will be supported and will be one

:32:50.:32:54.

small step forward. I will give way. Which she agreed, and she knows I

:32:55.:33:01.

support this amendment and support the wonderful work she does, but

:33:02.:33:06.

does she remember all the difficulties we had with thd banking

:33:07.:33:09.

sector when the people that were supposed to be the ordinancds in

:33:10.:33:15.

these great countries who specialise in obscurity. Hiding ownership and

:33:16.:33:19.

moving ownership. Surely thhs must go in tandem with taking on those

:33:20.:33:22.

big people that didn't actu`lly audit the banks properly but the

:33:23.:33:27.

same people who allow these big companies to evade tax. My

:33:28.:33:36.

honourable friend is right. We, as the parliament to represent the

:33:37.:33:40.

people's country, have a duty not to allow markets to be unfettered but

:33:41.:33:44.

to provide a framework in which they can operate and work and be

:33:45.:33:48.

successful and do the right thing. I would say they are companies who are

:33:49.:33:52.

doing the right thing and more and more companies are volunteering to

:33:53.:33:55.

do the right thing I publishing the sort of information I am asking to

:33:56.:34:00.

be more public today. I will give away one more time. I am gr`teful.

:34:01.:34:08.

Could she confirm my understanding that that which he is seeking in

:34:09.:34:10.

this amendment would not catse burden on business because the

:34:11.:34:13.

information is already being gathered and reported that hs not

:34:14.:34:17.

them being published and her amendment seeks just to get that

:34:18.:34:20.

which is already gathered and reported published? That is correct.

:34:21.:34:26.

I was hopeful for my junior amendment because since the 201

:34:27.:34:31.

general election the governlent has on a number of occasions indicated

:34:32.:34:35.

its support for country by country reporting. Am grateful to those

:34:36.:34:40.

whose approach was always constructive as we saw the best way

:34:41.:34:46.

to proceed. Four days after EU referendum the Minister and others

:34:47.:34:49.

were concerned that introducing my memo at that time might the UK

:34:50.:34:55.

multinationals at the disadvantage for reputational reasons. I have no

:34:56.:34:59.

doubt that the number of businesses for whom my amendment would apply

:35:00.:35:02.

have already suffered from reputational damage and mord

:35:03.:35:05.

transparency could actually enhanced their standing. The UK was the first

:35:06.:35:12.

to introduce public registers of ownership and others followdd.

:35:13.:35:18.

Backing country by country reporting is an opportunity for the government

:35:19.:35:22.

to show leadership again. It is a pro-business measure. This kind of

:35:23.:35:28.

reporting already exists within the extractive sector, financial

:35:29.:35:31.

services and some companies ahead of the card have started to publish

:35:32.:35:34.

this information such as thd energy company SSE or the cosmetics

:35:35.:35:40.

retailer lush which operates in many different countries. It would prefer

:35:41.:35:45.

to move ahead with others r`ther than alone. As the government makes

:35:46.:35:48.

plans to leave the European Union which may not be clean feelhng I do

:35:49.:35:55.

appreciate caution of ministers I am grateful to the honourable member

:35:56.:35:59.

for that seed for the dialogue we have had over the last two lonths.

:36:00.:36:06.

Argue for the support during the recess for all those who have signed

:36:07.:36:12.

amendment one 45. I hope thd government will regard this

:36:13.:36:15.

amendment as a friendly proposal. If passed to date the Commons will

:36:16.:36:20.

enshrine in law support for the principle of country by country

:36:21.:36:24.

reporting with the principld to be introduced when most appropriate.

:36:25.:36:29.

That sends a very powerful lessage confirming the UK's leading role in

:36:30.:36:34.

addressing tax evasion and `voidance and riding the government whth the

:36:35.:36:37.

tools to move quickly when the time is right without the need for

:36:38.:36:41.

primary legislation. Last wdek the European Commission serve ehght 30

:36:42.:36:47.

billion euros tax bill on tdch giant Apple. Although the rate of

:36:48.:36:52.

corporation tax in Ireland hs low, at 12.5% Apple paid in effect 1

:36:53.:36:59.

corporation tax in 2003 and a tiny not not not .5% in 2015. Evdn low

:37:00.:37:09.

corporation tax rates are no guarantee a country will collect its

:37:10.:37:19.

fair share. Apple are entitled to defend the position but the case

:37:20.:37:24.

highlights for me the need for more transparency in multination`l

:37:25.:37:28.

business affairs. Finally, ly final point. Having listened to the

:37:29.:37:33.

government's concerns and shared with mir garments for today was Mike

:37:34.:37:36.

amendment I hope the House can come together and make Yuki country by

:37:37.:37:42.

country reporting not a matter of if but when. Thank you. I rise not to

:37:43.:37:53.

detain the House for an undtlating lengthy time because I know everyone

:37:54.:37:57.

wants to get to bed before lidnight but I just want to set out by

:37:58.:38:01.

country by country porting hs very important. Why it is the whole

:38:02.:38:06.

culture which has grown up on too many cases of tax avoidance by large

:38:07.:38:11.

big business multinationals is something which we cannot condone.

:38:12.:38:17.

We cannot tolerate. People say what is wrong with an organisation like

:38:18.:38:20.

Apple organising its tax affairs to its best possible advantage. Is it

:38:21.:38:27.

not the principle of taxation? Is it not the principle of taxation that

:38:28.:38:32.

knows no equity in taxation? The Latrobe taxation rules should apply.

:38:33.:38:37.

I concern is the conduct of Apple is unacceptable for three key reasons.

:38:38.:38:44.

In a big business it organises its tax fears so it basically p`ys no

:38:45.:38:50.

tax whatsoever then it is inevitably warping the free market bec`use it

:38:51.:38:54.

is getting an unfair tax advantage on a competitive advantage `nd it

:38:55.:38:57.

gives them a competitive advantage over other enterprises that are

:38:58.:39:04.

paying tax on their profits. That, to me, is a really serious hssue.

:39:05.:39:09.

The other issue with Apple hn Ireland is to have the spechal deal

:39:10.:39:13.

for one business that does not apply to everyone else is counter to the

:39:14.:39:19.

fundamental principle of thd rule of law which is everyone should be

:39:20.:39:24.

treated the same. DVD cleandr cleaning the offices of Apple or be

:39:25.:39:29.

the Apple themselves. What hs offensive is a situation whdre the

:39:30.:39:33.

cleaner in the offices being more in tax than the massive profit`ble

:39:34.:39:36.

enterprise whose office thex are cleaning. Let me take the c`se of

:39:37.:39:41.

Apple. My honourable friend the Right Honourable member for walking

:39:42.:39:45.

made the powerful point. He said what is wrong if they have created

:39:46.:39:50.

all this intellectual property? What is wrong with it not been c`ught in

:39:51.:39:57.

a UK tax set? I answer is, hf this intellectual property was

:39:58.:39:59.

emphatically to dent the Lucan Valley, are the paying tax hn

:40:00.:40:06.

silicon valley? No, they ard not. What they have done is set tp the

:40:07.:40:10.

structure we are early in the evolution as a business, ten or 20

:40:11.:40:16.

years ago, he sold the outshde American intellectual property

:40:17.:40:19.

rights for whatever small alount it was to a leader company that would

:40:20.:40:24.

then have a conduit through Ireland that with denim vest across the rest

:40:25.:40:30.

of Europe. What you then do is you check the box for US tax purposes

:40:31.:40:34.

and everything below are yot do so from the IRS point of view ht looks

:40:35.:40:40.

like your Bermuda company is the trading company and because it is a

:40:41.:40:43.

trading company and the onlx enterprise the is for US tax

:40:44.:40:47.

purposes it is therefore not caught by the foreign companies regulations

:40:48.:40:52.

meaning that no tax can be deemed to be repatriated to the United States.

:40:53.:40:58.

As a result the situation is that the Bermuda enterprise becoles a

:40:59.:41:04.

cash box or reinvestment across the area across the European thdatre and

:41:05.:41:09.

hence even lies your unfair advantage. I give way.

:41:10.:41:20.

I expressed no view on Appld's tax affairs one way or the other. I

:41:21.:41:27.

asked how we as legislators globally produce a system that is fahr and

:41:28.:41:31.

sensible so that people know what companies should be playing. I have

:41:32.:41:35.

not studied in detail Apple's tax affairs, so I would not presume to

:41:36.:41:40.

lecture for or against what they do. I stand corrected by my Right

:41:41.:41:47.

Honourable Friend. It is not simply a problem with Apple, it is a

:41:48.:41:52.

question with genuine US outbound tax planning and that is whx country

:41:53.:41:55.

by country reporting really does matter. I give way. I agree with the

:41:56.:42:00.

points he is making. It is ly understanding that if my Right

:42:01.:42:04.

Honourable Friend's amendment had applied in Ireland in the c`se of

:42:05.:42:07.

Apple, then B would have known of the very large profits being made by

:42:08.:42:14.

the scum that seems to exist on paper and that it was paying a tiny

:42:15.:42:18.

amount of tax. Wouldn't that have been a valuable step forward in

:42:19.:42:23.

understanding what was going on The key issue is that we did know,

:42:24.:42:27.

because as I recall, Apple had to report it in some investigation for

:42:28.:42:32.

the Senate, because the US Senate was wondering why no tax had been

:42:33.:42:37.

paid, or very little tax had been paid by Apple in the United States,

:42:38.:42:41.

and if my recollection servds me correctly, a fellow member of this

:42:42.:42:46.

House may well correctly. The issue is one of transparency. These things

:42:47.:42:51.

come to light because the US Senate makes an investigation or some other

:42:52.:42:55.

enterprise organisation likd the Public Accounts Committee m`kes an

:42:56.:42:59.

investigation and starts asking the questions or indeed in the last

:43:00.:43:02.

Parliament, I myself went through the accounts of Google, Amazon and

:43:03.:43:07.

Starbucks and looked at what they were playing as a proportion of

:43:08.:43:12.

profits, and that is why I think country by country reporting is

:43:13.:43:15.

something which ought to be looked at, ought to be considered `nd on an

:43:16.:43:20.

international basis. It is hmportant that countries as a whole Act

:43:21.:43:25.

together to make sure that the international tax system is suitably

:43:26.:43:28.

robust in the Internet age. The reason this matters is thesd big

:43:29.:43:34.

businesses, when they don't pay tax, could affect small businessds,

:43:35.:43:38.

because it is the small bushness rooted in our soil that employs our

:43:39.:43:43.

neighbours that pays their Jews who suffer when the competitive

:43:44.:43:46.

advantage and the level plaxing field, the rule of law, whatever, is

:43:47.:43:51.

being walked in this way, and that is my prime concern, becausd small

:43:52.:43:55.

businesses in my section C `re the lifeblood of my local econoly and I

:43:56.:44:00.

want them to have a fair cr`ck. I want the terms of allegiancd of this

:44:01.:44:04.

great nation that I represent, England Wales and Scotland, do have

:44:05.:44:10.

a fair crack and to be able to come, particularly in Brexit Brit`in it is

:44:11.:44:12.

important for the country to be galvanised to be part of thd

:44:13.:44:15.

leadership of this nation and that is why we work -- we want a Britain

:44:16.:44:21.

that works with a 90%, the towns and nations of the region rather than

:44:22.:44:25.

big businesses and the elitd 10 . That is really important and that is

:44:26.:44:28.

why we need a tax system th`t works for everyone. I have been ddeply

:44:29.:44:37.

concerned looking at the accounts of car rental agencies like Avhs, that

:44:38.:44:41.

have imposed a Brexit tax, or was accused of imposing a Brexit tax on

:44:42.:44:47.

people renting cars. And I looked at their account and saw that @vis had

:44:48.:44:51.

paid no tax themselves, so they taxed their British customers but

:44:52.:44:54.

don't seem to pay any British corporation tax on their profits.

:44:55.:45:00.

The honourable gentleman has made an incredibly powerful speech `bout the

:45:01.:45:05.

reasons for tracks -- taxed transparency but when you mdntion is

:45:06.:45:08.

company like Avis, we should be having transparency for one simple

:45:09.:45:13.

reason only, so that consumdrs can vote with their feet, and if they

:45:14.:45:17.

believe that the products they are purchasing from companies that are

:45:18.:45:22.

not paying tax in this country or others in other countries, they can

:45:23.:45:25.

go and buy products from others that are paying tax. It is a powdrful

:45:26.:45:29.

point, and that is why transparency matters. If people know that they

:45:30.:45:33.

are being taken for a ride they don't need to use that organisation

:45:34.:45:37.

which uses a Luxembourg strtcture, a common intermediate structure for

:45:38.:45:41.

European tax planning to organise things so that no tax needs to be

:45:42.:45:47.

paid. And it is not just Avhs. I had a look at the account of Hertz,

:45:48.:45:53.

another large US car rental company that doesn't seem to have p`id any

:45:54.:45:57.

tax in the last few years. Ht is hard to tell how they are doing it,

:45:58.:46:01.

because I have looked in grdat detail at the accounts, and the

:46:02.:46:07.

accounts don't have to report related party transactions but they

:46:08.:46:09.

might will be renting their car fleets through Luxembourg, or the

:46:10.:46:19.

Netherlands BV, to get monex out of the UK tax net so that it is not

:46:20.:46:26.

subject to any tax, and that is why country by country reporting is

:46:27.:46:31.

important, not just as a tax context but in an accounting context so that

:46:32.:46:37.

we can see where the money has gone. Avis are paying more in the

:46:38.:46:40.

intercompany borrowings than they are paying to borrow from the bank,

:46:41.:46:45.

so that, too, gave me a levdl of concern and there seemed to be some

:46:46.:46:50.

framework royalties in therd, some royalties to do with the IT computer

:46:51.:46:53.

systems that they have internally, but it is hard to tell, bec`use they

:46:54.:46:58.

don't have that level of gr`nularity from the accounts. The case I am

:46:59.:47:02.

making is that we ought to have a greater level of knowledge, we ought

:47:03.:47:06.

to have a greater level of understanding of how money has been

:47:07.:47:12.

paid and the taxes that are due and the nature of the planning which is

:47:13.:47:17.

being undertaken, in order to make our laws more robust and so that we

:47:18.:47:21.

can make sure that everyone in this nation pays a fair share of tax

:47:22.:47:29.

even the cleaner, even the biggest, largest enterprise trading hn this

:47:30.:47:32.

country. It matters to the rule of law, to the fair and open m`rket and

:47:33.:47:35.

the level and competitive playing field that all businesses and

:47:36.:47:44.

enterprises are treated the same. Mike Wood. Thank you, Madam 50

:47:45.:47:48.

Speaker. As a conservative H believe that taxes need to be kept `s low as

:47:49.:47:53.

possible whether direct or hndirect, consistent with the need to raise

:47:54.:47:57.

finances for vital public sdrvices and for national security. Not only

:47:58.:48:04.

does unnecessarily high tax`tion stunt growth and development, it

:48:05.:48:08.

also means the government t`king from those who have earned that

:48:09.:48:13.

money, whether through labotr, through innovation or capit`l.

:48:14.:48:19.

However, the flip side of kdeping tax levels low is that everxbody

:48:20.:48:23.

must pay their fair share. Aggressive tax avoidance, bdnding

:48:24.:48:28.

the rules of the tax system to gain an advantage that Parliament never

:48:29.:48:33.

intended, means that a heavher burden falls on others who `re able

:48:34.:48:37.

to keep less of the money that they have earned. This government is

:48:38.:48:43.

rightly committed to supporting businesses through low taxes and

:48:44.:48:47.

that is why corporation tax has been cut again, to 17%, but thosd taxes

:48:48.:48:54.

have to be paid. And so this Finance Bill addresses the many ways that

:48:55.:48:59.

companies use to avoid paying their fair level of tax, and that includes

:49:00.:49:05.

the amendments that we are debating, tabled by the government to reform

:49:06.:49:12.

hybrid mismatches. These amdndments will reduce aggressive tax planning,

:49:13.:49:17.

typically involving a multinational group, the introduction of the rules

:49:18.:49:23.

will essentially remove the tax advantage arising from the tse of

:49:24.:49:28.

hybrid entities and instrumdnts and all to encourage more busindsses to

:49:29.:49:33.

adopt less complicated, mord transparent cross-border investment

:49:34.:49:37.

structures. I look forward to similar rules being introduced by

:49:38.:49:42.

other jurisdictions and in line with OECD recommendations, this

:49:43.:49:49.

legislation continues, cont`ins provisions for counteraction within

:49:50.:49:52.

the UK, where the other country does not counteract the mismatch within

:49:53.:50:01.

its own hybrid mismatch rulds. This Bill introduces the new pen`lty of

:50:02.:50:06.

60% of tax due, that was announced in the budget, to be charged in all

:50:07.:50:13.

cases successfully tackled by the general anti-avoidance regulations.

:50:14.:50:22.

Amendments 136, 137, tabled by the government, helped to make sure that

:50:23.:50:25.

the changes announced in thd budget work as intended, cracking down

:50:26.:50:31.

further on unscrupulous, aggressive tax avoidance. I agree with the

:50:32.:50:39.

comments raised by My Honourable Friend for Dover Deal on country

:50:40.:50:48.

by country reporting and of course, those raised so regularly bx the

:50:49.:50:56.

honourable lady for Sheffield.. Sorry, Don Valley! There is

:50:57.:51:06.

widespread and growing agredment across all parts of this Hotse that

:51:07.:51:14.

there is a need to move tow`rds country by country reporting, so

:51:15.:51:21.

that that information is published, it is out there, it is available

:51:22.:51:26.

both to national tax authorhties but also, as has been mentioned of

:51:27.:51:29.

course, the wider public, so the question comes back to weather the

:51:30.:51:33.

best way of achieving that hs for individual countries to Act

:51:34.:51:40.

unilaterally or for the UK to move in partnership with our

:51:41.:51:45.

international allies and through a range of international

:51:46.:51:46.

organisations, both within `nd beyond Europe. Of course. I thank

:51:47.:51:57.

him. Of course, we on these benches want international action and

:51:58.:52:00.

cooperation and, in fact, wd want our international friends to copy

:52:01.:52:06.

what I hope will be successful in remembrance tonight. We also need to

:52:07.:52:09.

bear in mind that half of the taxation in the world are British

:52:10.:52:15.

Overseas Territories. We have a particular responsibility in this

:52:16.:52:18.

regard worldwide. It is not just some kind of moral responsibility,

:52:19.:52:21.

to use the old phrase of thd white man's burden or any of that

:52:22.:52:25.

nonsense, it is to do with the fact that they are British Oversdas

:52:26.:52:28.

Territories who are responshble for half of the shenanigans. I think the

:52:29.:52:33.

honourable gentleman makes ` very valid point. However, I think I am

:52:34.:52:41.

sure that he would recognisd the progress that has been made in

:52:42.:52:47.

recent years to insist on those overseas territories, reallx, moving

:52:48.:52:53.

into the 21st century in terms of their tax arrangements, to `ctually

:52:54.:53:01.

comply with what we would expect for international standards. Because in

:53:02.:53:08.

a globalised world, we must be clear that concerted international effort

:53:09.:53:12.

is needed to stop the continued cross-border tax avoidance, evasion

:53:13.:53:19.

or plain all fashioned, aggressive but as Google is planning. ,-

:53:20.:53:25.

old-fashioned. The UK Government has done more than any -- but

:53:26.:53:32.

unscrupulous planning. The TK Government has done more th`n most

:53:33.:53:35.

international allies and colpetitors to eradicate these practices and

:53:36.:53:42.

continues to do so. But, of course, more must be done, and I welcome the

:53:43.:53:46.

assurances that we have heard from the government that this dods remain

:53:47.:53:52.

a priority. I am pleased th`t the government is now issuing country by

:53:53.:53:57.

country reporting and that ht will be discussed at the forthcoling G8

:53:58.:54:04.

20 finance ministers' meeting. This measure will help to increase that

:54:05.:54:11.

transparency across multinationals, supporting not only our own tax

:54:12.:54:16.

authorities but perhaps even more importantly, those tax authorities

:54:17.:54:22.

in developing countries, whhch are being almost literally robbdd of

:54:23.:54:27.

vital sources of income. Madam Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, this

:54:28.:54:33.

Finance Bill and the amendmdnts tabled to it includes both

:54:34.:54:37.

pioneering and bold measures. It will ensure that taxes are paid and

:54:38.:54:42.

that everybody pays their f`ir share, and I look forward to

:54:43.:54:48.

supporting it this evening. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would remhnd the

:54:49.:54:55.

House that in the register of interests I have declared that I am

:54:56.:54:58.

a registered investment advhsor but I am not speaking on their behalf in

:54:59.:55:03.

this debate. It seems to me that there is common ground amongst all

:55:04.:55:07.

parties in this House that we need to collect a decent amount of tax

:55:08.:55:10.

revenue and that we want to make sure that those who are rich,

:55:11.:55:14.

particularly companies, that seemed to generate a lot of turnovdr and

:55:15.:55:18.

possibly profit should pay their fair share. And we do recognise I

:55:19.:55:22.

think, that we have to oper`te in a global market, I'm talking `bout

:55:23.:55:28.

large corporations who, gentinely, make different levels of profit and

:55:29.:55:33.

generate different amounts of turnover in different jurisdictions

:55:34.:55:36.

and have genuinely complicated arrangements of how they swhtch

:55:37.:55:42.

components, technology, ide`s, work, between different centres. Dven in a

:55:43.:55:48.

service business, you're dohng it through electronic communic`tion,

:55:49.:55:51.

digital activity, and there may be different people in different

:55:52.:55:55.

centres around the world, all contributing to servicing that

:55:56.:55:58.

client or dealing with that particular product, so therd are

:55:59.:56:01.

genuine issues for the honest companies in trying to define and

:56:02.:56:05.

measure precisely where work is done, were added value is created,

:56:06.:56:08.

what is a fair attribution. I think we, as lettuce two litres,

:56:09.:56:18.

have to understand that complexity and come up with the judgment over

:56:19.:56:26.

what is a fair way to instrtct these companies to report in our different

:56:27.:56:30.

jurisdictions so that sensible amounts of tax are captured. We also

:56:31.:56:34.

need to remember that we as legislators help create the problem

:56:35.:56:41.

that offends quite a lot of MPs We do speak with forked tongue when it

:56:42.:56:47.

comes to tax matters. Quite often in this House when discussing tax is

:56:48.:56:52.

wanting to offer tax breaks. The House will say we would likd

:56:53.:56:57.

companies to do more ad and the order we would like companids to

:56:58.:57:00.

invest more in plant and eqtipment or we would like individuals to save

:57:01.:57:06.

for retirement or we would like individuals to save generally ought

:57:07.:57:10.

to be entrepreneurial, create a business and sell at any few users

:57:11.:57:15.

at a good profit. We collectively decide that we should encourage more

:57:16.:57:18.

of that conduct by letting people off income tax or capital g`ins tax

:57:19.:57:24.

or corporation tax or some combination of general taxes as an

:57:25.:57:28.

incentive to them to behave in the way we would like. We must therefore

:57:29.:57:35.

take some responsibility for tax avoidance. Obviously not for

:57:36.:57:38.

lawbreaking but for those who use the tax breaks we provide. We are

:57:39.:57:44.

now trying to define somethhng which is not strict lawbreaking which we

:57:45.:57:48.

will condemn and is an enforcement matter and something which hsn't

:57:49.:57:53.

friendly tax incentive which we probably all still agree about. I

:57:54.:57:57.

expect every MP in this House thinks something should be encouraged I tax

:57:58.:58:03.

incentive. You are trying to define something in the middle which has

:58:04.:58:06.

been called aggressive avoidance heard they are elements of doubt.

:58:07.:58:11.

That is where legislators nded to do a better job because we need to be

:58:12.:58:16.

able to say two companies this is illegal conduct and you will be

:58:17.:58:20.

prosecuted and everything else is legal conduct and meets your

:58:21.:58:25.

obligations. If we find we `re not collecting enough tax may bd the

:58:26.:58:29.

problem lies with us and maxbe we have two review the whole r`nge of

:58:30.:58:33.

incentives and tax breaks wd are offering because that may bd the

:58:34.:58:37.

origin of the problem that we may not seem to be collecting as much

:58:38.:58:40.

tax as may be collectively we would like to meet the requirements of our

:58:41.:58:47.

public services and other ndeds So, Mr Speaker, I will keep my remarks

:58:48.:58:52.

suitably brief that I think the needy certain amount of humhlity as

:58:53.:58:57.

legislators. It is very easx to get on a high horse about indivhduals or

:58:58.:59:01.

rich companies. Some do takd the law. They need to be prosectted

:59:02.:59:10.

Many others are honestly trxing to report their tax affairs,

:59:11.:59:12.

complicated as the art, in lultiple good restrictions. When we see that

:59:13.:59:18.

we this evening are debating a 44 page edition to our tax codds and

:59:19.:59:25.

that is just one medium-sizdd country and the multination`l

:59:26.:59:28.

company may have two report to 0, 40 or 50 different countries all of

:59:29.:59:33.

whom are generating different tax codes on a monumental scale, I think

:59:34.:59:38.

we should just pause and ask ourselves are we getting in the way

:59:39.:59:43.

of levying set tax by the vdry complexity of the rules we `re

:59:44.:59:49.

establishing? Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will speak to a number of

:59:50.:59:54.

amendments in my name and that of my honourable friends. New clatse 2

:59:55.:59:58.

which would require the govdrnment to report within one year on the

:59:59.:00:02.

impact of the criminal offences relating to offshore income, asset

:00:03.:00:07.

and activities created by clause one 65. Amendments 167 and 168 which

:00:08.:00:13.

will make it compulsory rather than just possible for each MRC to

:00:14.:00:19.

publish the names of those that hide behind entities such as companies

:00:20.:00:24.

and trusts when committing offshore tax evasion. Amendments 171 two 173

:00:25.:00:31.

which expand the definition of reasonable referred to in clause 165

:00:32.:00:36.

to include an honest belief that all the information was true and

:00:37.:00:41.

accurate. We are concerned on this side of the House that the category

:00:42.:00:45.

of reasonableness is, on its own, far too objective that subjdct is.

:00:46.:00:51.

The clause which would strengthen the penalty of enablers of offshore

:00:52.:00:57.

tax evaders to have fees received by the enabler of the service `nd the

:00:58.:01:03.

principle of just enrichment as it were. The aim of this is to

:01:04.:01:08.

neutralise somewhat the comlercial aspect of the tax avoidance

:01:09.:01:15.

industry. Amendments 165 and 16 which increased the minimum

:01:16.:01:18.

penalties for inaccuracies, failure to notify a charge to tax or build

:01:19.:01:23.

your to deliver a return to offshore matters and tax return by 14% rather

:01:24.:01:31.

than the government's suggested 10%. In the consultation for

:01:32.:01:38.

strengthening penalties for offshore evaders the considered incrdasing

:01:39.:01:42.

the penalty by 15% rather than ten. This is probing to find out why the

:01:43.:01:46.

government opted for the sm`ller increase than it originally

:01:47.:01:53.

considered. Up next we have measure 170 which would increase from 1 % to

:01:54.:01:59.

15%. The government consult`tion on this penalty site different rates of

:02:00.:02:04.

such an asset base penalty `cross the world including Italy where the

:02:05.:02:10.

penalty is up to 15%. The opposition which I will expand on in a moment

:02:11.:02:15.

think we must be world leaddrs in stamping out tax avoidance `nd so I

:02:16.:02:18.

think our penalty should at the very least be on par with Presiddnt

:02:19.:02:23.

across the world. These pen`lties are at least a start but I would

:02:24.:02:28.

also add in light of the latest confrontation in relation to

:02:29.:02:32.

tackling offshore tax evasion which would create a separate offdnce is

:02:33.:02:37.

not covered by the scope of this bill, the appears to be a clear move

:02:38.:02:42.

by stakeholders to suggest dven higher penalties are requirdd. I

:02:43.:02:46.

would urge the government to consider the suggestions thdre very,

:02:47.:02:51.

very carefully. I would also like to confirm this side's support of

:02:52.:02:57.

cross-party amendment 145 on public country by country reporting which

:02:58.:03:00.

was tabled by the Right Honourable member for Don Valley. I wotld like

:03:01.:03:05.

to place on record my thanks to her for the hard work she has ptt into

:03:06.:03:10.

presenting this very import`nt issue and it is testament to that hard

:03:11.:03:14.

work that many members across the House including members of PAC and

:03:15.:03:20.

more than 60 MPs and eight political parties as the Right Honour`ble

:03:21.:03:24.

member illustrated, pass organisations outside of thhs place

:03:25.:03:27.

have supported this amendment and it really is testament to the hard work

:03:28.:03:32.

she has put into pressing this issue. I will not go over growing

:03:33.:03:36.

the Right Honourable member has covered already. She has put her

:03:37.:03:42.

case articulately. This will ensure the UK has the scope to strdngthen

:03:43.:03:47.

its influence on international tax transparency negotiations and it

:03:48.:03:50.

will build a greater consensus. Finally, new clause 13 would require

:03:51.:03:58.

a comprehensive report into the UK tax gap which is defined as the

:03:59.:04:01.

difference in any financial year between the amount of tax e`ch MRC

:04:02.:04:06.

should be entitled to collect and the tax actually collected with such

:04:07.:04:10.

difference deriving from tax avoidance and evasion. The content

:04:11.:04:16.

of the report as set out in the amendment text must be carrhed out

:04:17.:04:21.

in consultation with stakeholders. It intends to examine a number of

:04:22.:04:25.

areas relating to tax avoid`nce in the hope that the government might

:04:26.:04:30.

review its policy and tailored the same in relation to adequatdly

:04:31.:04:33.

dealing with such issues. Chiefly for the members present for the

:04:34.:04:42.

moment... I will give way. H thank the Shadow Minister for givhng way.

:04:43.:04:47.

In terms of new clause 13 would it not also expose the idiocy of

:04:48.:04:51.

closing HMRC offices which the government are banning to close 90%

:04:52.:04:56.

of them and would it also allows members to look at the numbdr of

:04:57.:05:02.

staff in HMRC looking at tax avoidance and the number of staff in

:05:03.:05:09.

DWP, 3675 who are dealing whth .2 billion of Social Security fraud?

:05:10.:05:14.

The member makes a very good point. It is the report to highlight

:05:15.:05:22.

deficiencies found in HMRC hn terms of the ability to tackle tax

:05:23.:05:25.

avoidance and other members who will be the amendment will see the

:05:26.:05:29.

particular point relating to HMRC goes into a lot of details. The flag

:05:30.:05:35.

will touch on some of the point the report will require. It will require

:05:36.:05:39.

figures relating to UK tax that s what the last five financial years.

:05:40.:05:45.

The tales of the model used by HMRC for estimating the UK tax g`p. An

:05:46.:05:51.

assessment of the HMRC efficacy in dealing with the UK tax gap. Details

:05:52.:05:58.

of tax revenue benefits of dngaging only company registers in the UK for

:05:59.:06:03.

tax purposes in public proctrement. It will also require an assdssment

:06:04.:06:09.

of the efficacy of the general anti-abuse rule in discouraging tax

:06:10.:06:12.

avoidance. It will require consideration of the benefits to tax

:06:13.:06:15.

revenue from introducing a set of minimum standards in relation to tax

:06:16.:06:23.

transparency for all ready ground dependencies and overseas

:06:24.:06:26.

territories. Finally it will require an assessment of the impact on tax

:06:27.:06:31.

revenues of establishing a public register of all trusts located

:06:32.:06:35.

within the UK, British Crown dependencies and overseas

:06:36.:06:40.

territories. The amendments we have tabled today are necessary no more

:06:41.:06:44.

than ever. I appreciate we `re limited in terms of time today and

:06:45.:06:48.

as that will only be pushing new clause 13 to evil and will support

:06:49.:06:53.

the right Honourable member for Don Valley should she wish to ptsh her

:06:54.:06:57.

amendment to a vote. We support new clause seven which has been

:06:58.:07:02.

particularly outlined why the member for Cowdenbeath. In terms of the

:07:03.:07:05.

other amendments I have refdrred to I hope the minister will listen

:07:06.:07:09.

carefully to the comments I have made throughout my speech today The

:07:10.:07:14.

government will have ample opportunity outside the scope of

:07:15.:07:20.

today's bill. If the will is there to implement many of the repuests I

:07:21.:07:24.

have made. I will explain the rationale behind our various

:07:25.:07:29.

amendments today. The law on tax avoidance as been influenced by the

:07:30.:07:36.

words of Lord Tomlin in the case of Duke of Westminster versus the

:07:37.:07:40.

Inland Revenue Commissioners in 1935. Lord Tomlin decided it was the

:07:41.:07:44.

right of every Englishman to organise his fears to minimhse his

:07:45.:07:51.

liability to tax. An idea that fuels the tax avoidance industry dven

:07:52.:07:55.

today. In this age of so-called is with pressure on the NHS, the Armed

:07:56.:08:00.

Forces, our teachers, our young people, the list goes on, it is not

:08:01.:08:06.

acceptable to seek to avoid your taxes. I think Honourable mdmbers of

:08:07.:08:10.

all sides of this House havd come to agree that tax avoidance is

:08:11.:08:16.

something that should be fotght The trouble is, however, that this

:08:17.:08:20.

government has failed to tackle the problem head-on and simply tinkering

:08:21.:08:24.

about with piecemeal bits hdre and there is no different in thhs

:08:25.:08:29.

finance bill. What we need to see from this government is a rdal

:08:30.:08:33.

commitment to an overarching strategy that provides genuhne legal

:08:34.:08:37.

teeth to tackle the million`ire Dodgers and advisers who surround

:08:38.:08:42.

them. If I may take members on a little historical magical mxstery

:08:43.:08:47.

tour it was judges, not Parliament, in the 1980s who developed `

:08:48.:08:51.

principle which did actuallx put the dead in the tax avoidance industry.

:08:52.:08:57.

The so-called Ramsay doctrine. The principle provided that arthficial

:08:58.:09:01.

tax avoidance schemes should be analysed as a whole instead of

:09:02.:09:05.

analysing each piece separately This meant clever tax schemds could

:09:06.:09:09.

be dismantled by taking all the artificial elements out and what was

:09:10.:09:13.

left would be taxed as if the artificial elements never existed.

:09:14.:09:19.

The effect was huge in terms of attacking tax avoidance schdmes And

:09:20.:09:23.

fortunately, however, over the years, case law has moved on

:09:24.:09:28.

somewhat. We have now returned to a world in which tax law is now

:09:29.:09:33.

considered to be a matter entirely of statutory interpretation. They

:09:34.:09:36.

are no general principles at work which can be used when lookhng at

:09:37.:09:41.

combating tax avoidance and practice. Our tax statutes `re

:09:42.:09:45.

extraordinarily long and very detailed. This is meat and drink to

:09:46.:09:53.

tax specialists. Anyone in this House my age and above might

:09:54.:09:57.

remember the Peanuts cartoons and the is an episode I remember in

:09:58.:10:03.

which Linus says now I know the rules I know how to get arotnd them.

:10:04.:10:07.

Linus could have been a tax lawyer. The love claim by the rules and we

:10:08.:10:12.

should not underestimate thd expertise and determination of the

:10:13.:10:16.

tax avoidance community. Ond tax law specialist told me recently about

:10:17.:10:20.

something really harrowing `bout a firm of accountants in the 0990s. He

:10:21.:10:26.

was eased seven piece of legislation to tax any trust which shifted

:10:27.:10:32.

offshore. The exception to that rule arose if one of the trustees died

:10:33.:10:37.

and the trust shifted offshore as a consequence. These accountants

:10:38.:10:41.

canvassed the council ward to see if the relevance of people dying of

:10:42.:10:46.

cancer would be prepared to have their family member signed tp to act

:10:47.:10:51.

as a trustee of their client's trusts. The solitary assurances that

:10:52.:10:56.

the patient would die soon `nd promised to pay a small fee. This is

:10:57.:11:01.

an extreme case but it is an example of the debts to which peopld will

:11:02.:11:08.

think to avoid paying taxes. It is how loopholes in particular can be

:11:09.:11:10.

found in the depths of legislation. We need a general avoidance

:11:11.:11:25.

principle that is broadly drawn so that it will empower the cotrts to

:11:26.:11:29.

interpret all tax Law purposefully. This is something that many of us on

:11:30.:11:34.

this side of the House and hndeed the TUC have been calling for, but

:11:35.:11:38.

the government attempts so far have been piecemeal, at best. To

:11:39.:11:43.

continue, in terms of a gendral anti-avoidance principle, fhrstly,

:11:44.:11:49.

we have a narrow rule in thd Finance Act of 2013 which focused only on

:11:50.:11:52.

abuse of arrangements. Thesd arrangements have to be considered

:11:53.:11:57.

to be unreasonable by a pandl of industry tax experts before HMRC

:11:58.:12:06.

could Act. This is an all this example of a panel of experts being

:12:07.:12:11.

advised on how to actually catch poachers, essentially. Alternatively

:12:12.:12:16.

we might think of them being turkeys being asked to advise about the menu

:12:17.:12:22.

for Christmas lunch. Secondly, in this government's timid tax

:12:23.:12:25.

avoidance legislation, we h`ve a slight broadening out of th`t rule

:12:26.:12:28.

to impose penalties on tax avoidance. Fourthly, we havd

:12:29.:12:35.

provision to catch those who enable tax evaders, and now there's a

:12:36.:12:39.

consultation on whether those who enable tax avoiders should be

:12:40.:12:43.

treated similarly. It is all far too slow and far too little. As the

:12:44.:12:49.

Minister knows, by the numbdr of amendments we have made tod`y and on

:12:50.:12:53.

previous occasions in this House, the legislation doesn't havd the

:12:54.:12:57.

strength or clarity it deserves We can continue to tinker with

:12:58.:13:02.

successive Finance bills, trying to stick plasters over deficient tax

:13:03.:13:06.

legislation or we can develop a comprehensive tax avoidance strategy

:13:07.:13:08.

with heavyweight legislation to match. The Labour Party has tabled

:13:09.:13:13.

new clause 13 to encourage the government to carry out a

:13:14.:13:18.

wide-ranging report into thd UK tax gap, as I mentioned earlier. It is

:13:19.:13:23.

hoped this report will help the government to assess carefully the

:13:24.:13:26.

current pressure points and areas of weakness in its current tax

:13:27.:13:30.

avoidance policy. Now we ard limited by the scope of today's Fin`nce Bill

:13:31.:13:34.

in calling for a report specifically, but Labour is

:13:35.:13:37.

committed to a full public hnquiry on this matter and I would welcome

:13:38.:13:43.

the minister's support for that This whole sorry mess, from the

:13:44.:13:47.

exposure of offshore tax havens with the Panama Papers, with the largest

:13:48.:13:53.

corporations in the world bding next to nothing in tax, investment banks

:13:54.:13:57.

using financial interest to avoid tax and clever tax advisers

:13:58.:14:00.

designing off-the-peg avoid`nce schemes, this needs to be exposed to

:14:01.:14:07.

the disinfecting properties of daylight, and it means disinfecting,

:14:08.:14:11.

because, quite rightly, it stinks. We need transparency in the tax

:14:12.:14:15.

system and Apple inquiry to design a system that will challenge the tax

:14:16.:14:22.

avoidance industry and we nded to change the tax laws so that they are

:14:23.:14:25.

based on broad principles which make it difficult to avoid them. Then we

:14:26.:14:31.

must find HMRC so that they can take the fight to the tax dodgers by

:14:32.:14:36.

arming them with better tax statute and by starving them with more

:14:37.:14:40.

highly qualified staff. We lust provide them with real support in

:14:41.:14:46.

combating tax avoidance. Thd Panama Papers is a symptom of another

:14:47.:14:52.

well-known disease. Many of the most appalling tax havens are Brhtish

:14:53.:14:55.

Overseas Territories or protectorates. We must recognise we

:14:56.:15:00.

have allowed this to happen. Labour's new clause 13 asks the

:15:01.:15:04.

government to explore the rdgion of a set of minimum standards hn

:15:05.:15:08.

relation to tax transparenches for all British Crown dependenches and

:15:09.:15:12.

overseas territories. Furthdr to this it is imperative for the

:15:13.:15:15.

Foreign and Commonwealth Office to work seriously with Crown

:15:16.:15:18.

dependencies and the British Overseas Territories to est`blish

:15:19.:15:22.

genuine information sharing, to be transparent about the ownership of

:15:23.:15:25.

trusts and companies in thehr territory, and to stop enabling the

:15:26.:15:29.

tax avoidance industry to flourish on their shores. By allowing the

:15:30.:15:35.

wealthy tax dodgers of the world to put the money in these placds, we

:15:36.:15:39.

ensure that billions of pounds, dollars Andy Rose are lost to the

:15:40.:15:44.

public finances of the world, and as a result, hospitals are not built,

:15:45.:15:48.

schools are not refurbished, jobs are lost. Misery and depriv`tion in

:15:49.:15:55.

our communities, here in thd UK is caused by tax avoidance. So it is

:15:56.:16:01.

time to stop taking pieceme`l action in fighting tax avoidance. Ht is

:16:02.:16:04.

time the government dealt whth the problem head on. If the govdrnment

:16:05.:16:08.

actually wanted to do anythhng about the tax avoidance industry ht would

:16:09.:16:12.

lift its head up from fiddlhng about with the detail of successive

:16:13.:16:15.

finance bills and agreement -- agree with the amendments we have tabled

:16:16.:16:19.

today. The Labour Party is calling for the new Britain which whll be

:16:20.:16:23.

making its way out of the ET to take a central role in the OECD

:16:24.:16:30.

initiative to fight tax avohdance and other tax dodgers, to stpport

:16:31.:16:35.

the EU's recent initiative to confront billions of dollars being

:16:36.:16:39.

avoided by the world's largdst corporations. Mr Speaker, wd must

:16:40.:16:44.

stop this game that the tax dodgers and their well-paid advisors play

:16:45.:16:49.

with HMRC. We have got to stop this war and dysfunctional dance between

:16:50.:16:52.

them in which sweetheart de`ls are done with companies like Vodafone,

:16:53.:16:58.

Google and Goldman Sachs. Wd must invest in HMRC. We must simplify

:16:59.:17:03.

other tax codes, and we must build our laws on the simple principle

:17:04.:17:08.

that being part of our socidty means paying your fair share towards the

:17:09.:17:14.

upkeep of that society. Now, if members of this House are in

:17:15.:17:17.

agreement with those very b`sic principles I would urge thel to

:17:18.:17:20.

support the amendments were put forward today, as a small step

:17:21.:17:25.

towards this goal. Ultimately, I hope that the Minister has listened

:17:26.:17:28.

carefully, because we certahnly deserve much more than the few tax

:17:29.:17:33.

avoidance divisions -- provhsions contained within today's bill, and I

:17:34.:17:36.

would like to formally move new clause 13. Thank you very mtch, Mr

:17:37.:17:48.

Speaker. It has been a very wide-ranging and at times p`ssionate

:17:49.:17:52.

debate. I would like to address the amendments the government are making

:17:53.:17:56.

before turning to those amendments and new clauses tabled by the

:17:57.:18:01.

opposition. Mr Speaker, govdrnment amendments 136, 137, clause 255

:18:02.:18:08.

this is to make an administrative change to strengthen the general

:18:09.:18:14.

anti-abuse rules procedural efficiency and amendments 136, 37,

:18:15.:18:20.

to make small technical changes that cause which incorporate the new

:18:21.:18:25.

terms introduced by clause 036, and these new terms produce a ndw way of

:18:26.:18:30.

countering the procedure to enable the same advisory panel opinion to

:18:31.:18:35.

apply to multiple users of larketed tax avoidance schemes. We bdlieve

:18:36.:18:40.

these changes will streamline the procedure without automating the

:18:41.:18:45.

fundamental test that taxpaxers are subject to under the GAR. Wd will

:18:46.:18:52.

enable tax to be protected for the cases we intend to address. Let me

:18:53.:19:01.

turn now to amendment 145, loved by the right honourable lady, the

:19:02.:19:05.

member for Don Valley. This would give the Treasury the power to

:19:06.:19:12.

publish a country by countrx report showing their profits, taxes paid

:19:13.:19:15.

and other financial information in the countries in which they operate.

:19:16.:19:19.

As was acknowledged by the right honourable lady and others hn this

:19:20.:19:24.

date, the UK has led intern`tional efforts. I think that the honourable

:19:25.:19:28.

lady speaking from the French - front bench has been a little bit

:19:29.:19:31.

miserable about the leadership that the UK has shown. I didn't recognise

:19:32.:19:36.

the description she applied. Others were more generous and have noted

:19:37.:19:42.

the fact that the UK has led those international efforts, rightly, to

:19:43.:19:44.

tackle tax avoidance by multinational enterprises, for all

:19:45.:19:49.

of the reasons so brilliantly articulated like My Honourable

:19:50.:19:56.

Friend, the member for Dover Deal. The government has been a fhrm

:19:57.:19:59.

supporter of greater tax transparency and greater public

:20:00.:20:03.

disclosure of the tax affairs of large businesses and, for these

:20:04.:20:06.

reasons, the government fully supports the intentions of the

:20:07.:20:11.

amendment as supporting its inclusion in the bill. The

:20:12.:20:15.

government has consistently pushed for a multilateral system for

:20:16.:20:21.

country by country reporting. The Chancellor made the case for looking

:20:22.:20:26.

at this at the G20 in July. Amendment 145 is very much hn

:20:27.:20:30.

keeping with this aim, and provides a government with the power to

:20:31.:20:34.

implement when appropriate. It is nonetheless important that the power

:20:35.:20:40.

is used to deliver co-present and effective model as acknowledged by

:20:41.:20:44.

the right honourable lady of country by country reporting agreed on a

:20:45.:20:47.

multilateral basis, and I al sure that we will return to this issue on

:20:48.:20:52.

the basis on which we can go forward, but it means a moddl that

:20:53.:20:57.

requires all groups, both UK headquartered and non-UK

:20:58.:20:59.

headquartered, the report information for the full range of

:21:00.:21:04.

countries in which they operate It is vital for ensuring that the

:21:05.:21:07.

policy intention of greater transparency is delivered. Ht is

:21:08.:21:11.

important for ensuring that UK headquartered groups are not put at

:21:12.:21:15.

a competitive disadvantage `nd again I pay tribute to the right

:21:16.:21:18.

honourable lady in recognishng that concern as was expressed earlier in

:21:19.:21:24.

the year, and that disclosure requirements cannot be avoided

:21:25.:21:27.

through group restructuring, another issue that we want to make sure that

:21:28.:21:31.

we on top. The government rdmains focused on getting internathonal

:21:32.:21:34.

agreement for such a model `s part of its continued efforts to ensure

:21:35.:21:39.

that taxes are paid, and pahd in jurisdictions where economic

:21:40.:21:42.

activities take place. She `nd the House have my assurance that the

:21:43.:21:45.

government will continue to take every opportunity to champion this

:21:46.:21:49.

agenda at international levdl. And it is increasingly clear th`t we

:21:50.:21:52.

move forward with a welcome degree of agreement across this Hotse. Let

:21:53.:22:00.

me turn to Labour amendments 163-168. Of course. Can I thank the

:22:01.:22:07.

honourable lady for the govdrnment decision to support my amendment? I

:22:08.:22:11.

do hope that we can work together to look at ways in which we can make

:22:12.:22:16.

the journey to introducing ht in this country, with others, ` real

:22:17.:22:21.

possibility in future. Indedd. And we have seen in other areas where we

:22:22.:22:24.

have shown leadership how mtch can happen in a short space of time so

:22:25.:22:28.

I think we're optimistic th`t we can make progress. And as I say, with a

:22:29.:22:33.

welcome degree of consensus across the House. Turning to amendlents

:22:34.:22:41.

163- Non Stanford 68, 173, new clause 12, concerning penalties for

:22:42.:22:45.

offshore tax avoidance and dvasion. And clause 161, scheduled 20,

:22:46.:22:53.

creates new civil penalties for those who deliberately assist

:22:54.:22:57.

taxpayers to evade UK inherhtance tax, capital gains tax or income tax

:22:58.:23:02.

by offshore means. It would introduce financial penaltids at

:23:03.:23:10.

100% of the tax evaded. Amendments 163, 164 would include withhn the

:23:11.:23:15.

provisions the option of ch`rging a penalty of up to 100% of anx fee

:23:16.:23:19.

paid by the taxpayer to the enabler for the enabling service received.

:23:20.:23:25.

Mr Speaker, the fees charged by organisations can take a vast array

:23:26.:23:28.

of different structures and formats. Without a clear constitution of what

:23:29.:23:35.

the fee is all relates to the services provided, it would be

:23:36.:23:38.

disproportionately burdensole for HMRC to apply and you such `

:23:39.:23:42.

penalty, and a penalty based on tax lost is a much clearer and lore

:23:43.:23:46.

easily defined concept, we believe, which better means the objective of

:23:47.:23:49.

sending a strong and clear deterrent. Amendments 165 and 1 6

:23:50.:23:56.

will increase the minimum pdnalties charged for deliberate offshore tax

:23:57.:24:01.

has increased the sanctions that can has increased the sanctions that can

:24:02.:24:05.

incentive to taxpayers to However, we must balance thhs

:24:06.:24:17.

voluntarily comply and coopdrate with HMRC, and so, we do believe

:24:18.:24:22.

therefore that the arrangemdnts we have set out provide a good balance.

:24:23.:24:27.

As with all penalties we kedp the rates under review. Amendments 67

:24:28.:24:32.

and 168 would make it compulsory for HMRC to publish details of tax

:24:33.:24:36.

defaulters who meet the reldvant criteria. Public naming incdntivises

:24:37.:24:42.

evaders to come forward and cooperate but it allows namhng of

:24:43.:24:46.

those who refuse to cooperate with HMRC, and in the vast majorhty of

:24:47.:24:50.

cases we would expect HMRC to name those who meet the criteria.

:24:51.:24:53.

However, mandatory publicathon would be inappropriate in some particular

:24:54.:25:00.

exceptional circumstances or perhaps where there were wider consdquences

:25:01.:25:03.

such as economic market imp`cts from the information becoming public

:25:04.:25:09.

Clause 164, scheduled 22, introduces new asset base penalties for the

:25:10.:25:12.

most serious cases of delibdrate onshore tax evasion, where the tax

:25:13.:25:19.

loss exceeds 25,000 added ldvy a penalty of 10% of the value of the

:25:20.:25:23.

asset connected to the evashon, in to any other pack stew and hnterest

:25:24.:25:34.

penalties G. -- do. This level of penalty was carefully considered

:25:35.:25:38.

when it was set. Accounting for international comparisons as the

:25:39.:25:42.

honourable lady did with thdir two, and for the fact that it is a new

:25:43.:25:45.

approach to penalties for the UK in relation to tax matters. Thd

:25:46.:25:50.

government has also consultdd and engaged with stakeholders, balancing

:25:51.:25:53.

the arguments they set out. We feel that the legislation as it currently

:25:54.:25:57.

stands at allows a substanthal penalty for deliberate tax dvasion

:25:58.:26:01.

and will provide a signific`nt deterrent. However, it is not clear

:26:02.:26:06.

that the 5% increase in the maximum would significantly increasd the

:26:07.:26:07.

impact of the penalty. Increasing our ability to prosecute.

:26:08.:26:30.

A successful conviction unddr this new offence cooed result in a fine

:26:31.:26:35.

or a prison sentence of up to six months. The new criminal offence is

:26:36.:26:45.

expected to come into effect from the 2017 /18 tax period. We feel it

:26:46.:26:54.

makes the amendment redundant. Amendments 171 two 170 will

:26:55.:27:00.

introduce a further defence to this criminal offence where the person

:27:01.:27:04.

believed the information thd supply to HMRC was true and accurate but

:27:05.:27:09.

these do not work in practice. The part of the cause to which they

:27:10.:27:14.

relate is the offence of fahlure to notify HMRC of charge ability and

:27:15.:27:19.

failure to make a return. In both of these cases no information would

:27:20.:27:24.

have been supplied to HMRC `nd so no offence could be applied.

:27:25.:27:29.

Inaccuracies and documents the amendment we feel is unnecessary.

:27:30.:27:34.

The offence already had the defence of having taken reasonable care to

:27:35.:27:40.

get your affairs right which would imply the taxpayer believed they

:27:41.:27:44.

were true and accurate. Let me return to new clause seven loved by

:27:45.:27:49.

the member for Cowdenbeath. That would legislate for the revhew of

:27:50.:27:54.

the impact of the tax regimd on Scottish limited partnerships. On

:27:55.:27:58.

the levels of tax avoidance and evasion. A Scottish limited

:27:59.:28:02.

partnership is treated for tax purposes as the tax transparent

:28:03.:28:06.

vehicle in the same way as ` limited partnership that is established in

:28:07.:28:11.

England and or Wales is. Lilited powers as established in Scotland

:28:12.:28:15.

that he set out in moving the clause has a separate legal person`lity

:28:16.:28:18.

which means the partnership itself can own assets and enter into

:28:19.:28:24.

contracts. The government is committed to effectively tackling

:28:25.:28:28.

tax avoidance, invasion and effective tax planning incltding

:28:29.:28:31.

partnerships have evolved and have secured over an additional ?130

:28:32.:28:36.

billion in an compliance yidld since 2010. Last month the governlent

:28:37.:28:42.

launched a consultation looking at partnership taxation includhng

:28:43.:28:46.

proposals to clarify the tax treatment for various types of

:28:47.:28:51.

partnership. We will welcomd the SNP's engagement in that exdrcise

:28:52.:28:55.

and I would like to offer somebody assurance with regard to thd recent

:28:56.:28:59.

allegations in the media regarding the use of SLP is by crimin`l

:29:00.:29:04.

organisations. The government takes extremely seriously the points that

:29:05.:29:08.

have been raised and is working collaboratively across departments

:29:09.:29:12.

and law enforcement agencies to the bus late tackle crime and fraud

:29:13.:29:16.

Lieber new clause that team calls upon the government to report into

:29:17.:29:23.

the UK tax gap. Apologies if she said this, I was not clear. With the

:29:24.:29:27.

minister please let us know whether or not she is going to support an

:29:28.:29:30.

inclusion in new clause sevdn on the basis she has just made it clear why

:29:31.:29:34.

it is very Portland and a good idea for us to do this? If she is not

:29:35.:29:38.

willing to support Iguchi jtstified by the government is willing to

:29:39.:29:42.

leave this loophole and discussed without review? As I just l`id out a

:29:43.:29:49.

consultation is underway whhch gives us an opportunity to look at exactly

:29:50.:29:55.

these issues. I am bite the SNP to engage with that. Turning to the

:29:56.:30:00.

lengthy speech and the case that was made for Labour's Mac new clause 13,

:30:01.:30:06.

the report into the UK tax gap, the tax gap is a traditional st`tistic

:30:07.:30:14.

published date October which is produced in association with the

:30:15.:30:17.

code of practice which ensures integrity. The methodology hs

:30:18.:30:23.

replied by third parties to be robust it is intense lovely reviewed

:30:24.:30:28.

to be given a clean bill of health by The International Monetary Fund

:30:29.:30:31.

and scrutinised by the audit office. The there is no need for a report

:30:32.:30:38.

into the tax gap. HMRC publhshed and methodological annex alongshde the

:30:39.:30:41.

tax gap publication which provides details of the data and methodology

:30:42.:30:48.

used to produce estimates of the tax gap. In the course of moving new

:30:49.:30:53.

clause 13 the Honourable lady speaking for the opposition painted

:30:54.:30:56.

a picture which I think on this side of the House and I suspect hn other

:30:57.:31:01.

parts of the House would be regarded as, at the very least, ungenerous.

:31:02.:31:06.

In many ways and accurate, tnfair and unrecognisable in terms of the

:31:07.:31:10.

way it downplayed the effort that have been taken by this govdrnment

:31:11.:31:16.

in these areas. To call it tinkering at the edges is simply nonsdnse

:31:17.:31:21.

Since 2010 the government h`s provided HMRC with ?1.8 billion to

:31:22.:31:28.

tackle evasion, avoidance and noncompliance. Over that PDB HMRC

:31:29.:31:34.

have secured an additional 030 billion in additional tax rdvenues.

:31:35.:31:38.

We have shown considerable `mbition and, indeed, as other members on the

:31:39.:31:43.

opposition side have indeed been generous enough to acknowledge,

:31:44.:31:47.

international leadership. I do not accept the criticism that wdre

:31:48.:31:51.

voiced from the front bench and it is worth noting that at somd budget

:31:52.:31:57.

2015 the government invested a further ?850 million to fund

:31:58.:32:01.

additional work to tackle t`x evasion and noncompliance. Now

:32:02.:32:06.

government and certainly in particular the last Labour

:32:07.:32:08.

government have come close to being as ambitious as we have been since

:32:09.:32:13.

2010 on this important agenda and, indeed, the extent to which actually

:32:14.:32:18.

there was considerable agredment across the House in the earlier part

:32:19.:32:24.

of the debate and the fact that the government has accepted the Right

:32:25.:32:27.

Honourable lady for Don Valley's amendment. It gives some wedk to the

:32:28.:32:33.

fact we are beginning to strike a UK consensus about the need to tackle

:32:34.:32:37.

this. We have a chance to continue to move forward. It is an appetite,

:32:38.:32:43.

I know, to return to these hssues. The dizzy deal desire for the

:32:44.:32:47.

government to continue to rdad internationally on avoidancd and

:32:48.:32:50.

evasion and the House can bd reassured that is exactly what we

:32:51.:32:55.

intend to do. Does the honotrable gentleman the member for Kirkcaldy

:32:56.:33:01.

and Cowdenbeath wish to respond The few words just do say I am

:33:02.:33:05.

incredibly disappointed that the government has chosen to dr`g its

:33:06.:33:09.

feet on the issue of Scottish limited partnerships and on the

:33:10.:33:12.

basis of their own arguments we will be moving new clause seven. That is

:33:13.:33:19.

commendably petty. I think the houses almost audibly grateful. --

:33:20.:33:29.

pithy. The question is that new clause seven B read a second time.

:33:30.:33:34.

As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".

:33:35.:33:42.

Division, cleared the lobby. Order. The question is that new

:33:43.:36:01.

clause seven be read a second time. As many as are of the opinion, say

:36:02.:36:11.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". . Killers 's body knows Mr Gr`ham

:36:12.:36:17.

Stewart and Mr Mark Spencer. -- cameras for the noes.

:36:18.:47:11.

Order, order. The Ayes to the right, 248, the Noes to the left, 304.

:47:12.:47:35.

The Ayes to the right, 248, the Noes to the left, 304. Nose macro, nose

:47:36.:47:48.

macro, unlocked. We now comd to new clause 13 in the name of thd

:47:49.:47:54.

honourable lady who will move formally, I believe, the qudstion is

:47:55.:48:00.

that new clause 13 B read a second time. As many as are of that opinion

:48:01.:48:08.

say aye, contrary no division, clear the lobby.

:48:09.:50:44.

Order. The question is that new clause 13 B read a second thme. As

:50:45.:50:51.

many as are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. Tellers for thd Ayes,

:50:52.:50:57.

Sue Heymann and Jeff Smith. Tellers for the Noes, very disorderly

:50:58.:51:04.

conduct, tellers for the Nods, Mr Graham Stuart and Mr Mark Spencer.

:51:05.:51:10.

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