Browse content similar to 14/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Order! I had hoped to be able to announce today the timetable for the | :00:07. | :00:23. | |
election of vacant chairs of select committees. It is my understanding, | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
I may of course be wrong, that discussions on these matters in the | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
usual channels have concluded, but the government has still to table | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
the various motions required. I very much hope that they will be tabled | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
very soon. It may be helpful to members to know that, if the House | :00:47. | :00:55. | |
agrees to those motions, it is my fervent hope and expectation that | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
the elections for chairs may take place on Wednesday 19th of October. | :01:01. | :01:13. | |
Order. We will come to the honourable gentleman. I know that it | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
may be on that matter but there is something else I want to see first. | :01:18. | :01:25. | |
It is always good to keep the honourable gentleman in reserve, it | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
builds up a sense of eager anticipation in the House. Order. | :01:31. | :01:37. | |
Michael Carpenter, speakers Council, retires from how service at the end | :01:38. | :01:46. | |
of September. You were seconded from the Treasury solicitors department | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
in October 2000 as counsel for European legislation and | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
subsequently became an employee of the House. Michael became Speaker's | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
Council in October 2008. He has served this House and, if I may say | :02:02. | :02:08. | |
so, colleagues, he has served me magnificently. I shall always be | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
grateful to him, and the House should be thankful for his sense of | :02:14. | :02:21. | |
duty, for his immense ability and for his stoicism and fortitude under | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
pressure. I am sure that the House would wish to send its best wishes | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
to Michael and his family, following his retirement. Hear, hear. I am | :02:35. | :02:43. | |
pleased to announce that, following fair and open competition, Sarah | :02:44. | :02:57. | |
Solini will take on the role of Speaker's counsel in October. She's | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
currently solicited the Deputy Church Commissioners, role that she | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
has held for five years. Before that she was a member of the office of | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the Parliamentary Counsel for eight years, and she comes to us with a | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
detailed knowledge of the legislative process. I am sure that | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
the House will want to wish Sarah well in her new and important role. | :03:18. | :03:29. | |
Yes, OK, I will take those points of order now before we come to the | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
urgent questions. I saw the honourable member for Wellingborough | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
first under am certain that he will burst if he doesn't have is | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
opportunity ere long. Mr Peter bone. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the issue | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
he raised, obviously the two whips' departments will be working hard to | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
ensure that this House has the opportunity to set up Select | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
Committees to scrutinise the government. As they are having some | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
sort of trouble, is there any possibility we could do something in | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
this House to ensure that it happens before we go into recess, and so it | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
would be really useful if we could have the election on the day that | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
you say, because that's my birth date! It seems to me a very good | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
reason to make expeditious progress on this matter in any case. I'm sure | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
that there was absolutely no hint of underlying sarcasm in his | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
observation when he expressed the confident expectation that the whips | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
on both sides would want to make progress in the establishment of the | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
new committee and in the election of the vacant chairs or all of the | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
committees, because of course, they will want the government to be | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
subject to proper and thorough scrutiny. There is very good reason | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
to proceed expeditiously anyway, but the fact that October the 19th is | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
also the honourable gentleman's birthday, provides an added | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
incentive and the short answer is, I am doing what I can, not very | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
subtly, to indicate that the usual channels really ought to progress | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
this matter, sooner rather than later, and so for as I am concerned, | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
that means by tomorrow. -- so far as I am concerned. My best wishes to | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
Michael and Sarah, as well, as they take up their new roles. With the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
changes to the Select Committees we see a change from the old business | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
committee to business energy and industrial strategy committee and | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
old business committee was one of the constituent committees on arms | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
export controls. I wonder whether it is your view that the new committee | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
will take over the role of the old business committee as well of the | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
constituent committees and that he would not be correct as has been | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
suggested in some quarters that then new international trade committee | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
should take over sole responsibility for scrutinising arms export | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
matters. The honourable gentleman is an ingenious fellow and has | :06:03. | :06:04. | |
regularly demonstrated that since his election to the House. I don't | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
blame the honourable member for seeking to shoehorn in his own | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
current preoccupation when we are discussing the timetable for the | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
election of chairs all they can committees. However, the proper | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
answer for me to give the honourable gentleman is that it is not a matter | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
for the Chair. It will be a matter for the committee itself to decide. | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
Now, if the honourable gentleman were afflicted by a sudden bout of | :06:33. | :06:41. | |
self-doubt or reticence, causing him to be reluctant or unable to express | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
his view on this matter, I would be concerned. But he won't be, and | :06:47. | :06:57. | |
therefore I have got. -- I am not. I noticed the Leader of the House is | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
in his place. Would it be in order for the benefit of a House if the | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
leader rise at the dispatch box and put the House out of its misery in | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
relation to the government's plans for the dates of the selection of | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
committee chairs. The Leader of the House isn't under any such | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
obligation. It has to be said, normally, and I speak with some | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
authority on this matter, as I have known the Leader of the House for 30 | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
years, and we have been in constituency terms, next door | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
neighbours for the best part of 20, the right honourable gentleman is | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
the most accommodating of colleagues, and I've got a feeling | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
that he's about to prove the point. The Leader of the House of Lords Mr | :07:40. | :07:48. | |
Speaker, if it may help the House, as you might said, Mr Speaker, | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
agreement was reached among the usual channels earlier this week as | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
to the reconstitution of Select Committees following the changes to | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
government departments. It was clearly right that we sought to get | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
full cross-party endorsement for these changes. That has now been | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
attained. I have therefore given instructions immediately for the | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
necessary resolutions and changes to standing orders to be drafted and we | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
shall certainly table those as rapidly as we can get those to the | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
House authorities. I think that's very encouraging. I don't want to | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
embarrass The right honourable gentleman, but he's in some danger, | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
if not careful, being held aloft by members in all parts of the House. | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
We will leave it there for now. And I thank the Leader of the House of | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
Lords EZ, which I think is encouraging. Urgent question, | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
Rebecca Long Bailey. I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
you'll make a statement on the abilities and activities in relation | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
to tax credit investigations made on behalf of HMRC into Concentrix. I | :09:07. | :09:15. | |
want to be very clear. The government recognises the importance | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
of tax credits to individuals and families. We all recognise that it | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
is important that this support reaches the people who really need | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
it. That is why HMRC work hard to check they are making the trek | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
payments and tackle any fraudulent claims. We must acknowledge that | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
fraud exists in the system and should invest to ensure that | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
taxpayers money is spent directly. As part of this, Concentrix Ltd was | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
engaged to help check people's eligibility. ?300 million worth of | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
incorrect payments have been identified. I want to reassure the | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
House on two key points. First, Concentrix were only paid for making | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
the right decisions. They would not receive payment for taking someone's | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
money away wrongly. And secondly, that Concentrix were not allowed to | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
engage in fishing expeditions or pick on vulnerable claimants at | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
random. But, where there was evidence to suggest a claim might | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
not be correct, Concentrix would like to claimants to confirm their | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
edge eligibility. I realise, and I know this as a constituency member | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
myself, that it can be stressful for someone to receive such a letter, | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
that it is right that investigate the full picture with claimants | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
themselves to make the right payments. That is why both | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
Concentrix and HMRC, where does the same work, always sends a letter | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
giving claimants 30 days to provide information before taking any | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
further action and it is important that people do indeed respond and | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
get in touch if they are struggling to respond to any other questions. | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
Despite the best efforts of the staff manning the phones, with a | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
high volume of calls in recent weeks, Concentrix have not been | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
providing the high levels of customer service that the public | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
expect, and which are required in contract. HMRC have given notice | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
that this contract will not be renewed beyond its end date in May, | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
2017. HMRC is no longer passing news cases to Concentrix but working with | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
them as a matter of urgency to improve the service they provide to | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
claimants and to resolve outstanding cases. I can confirm to the House | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
that 150 HMRC staff have been redeployed with immediate effect to | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
help them resolve any issues people are having with their claims, as | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
quickly as possible, and, Mr Speaker, I realise that colleagues | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
on all sides of the House are concerned to get difficult cases | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
resolved and assist vulnerable constituents appropriately. In | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
addition to the additional resources I have referred to, I have arranged | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
a members dropping in at palmistry between 9:30am and 11am tomorrow at | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
which we can offer guidance to colleagues, should that be helpful. | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
-- at one Parliament St. I thank the Minister for her reply. Many members | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
across the House have been contacted by distressed and anxious | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
constituents, often hard-working individuals who have a tax credits | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
cut unfairly, pushing them, in many cases, into extreme hardship. Whilst | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
we on this side certainly welcome that HMRC is finally taking action | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
in announcing that the Concentrix contract will not be renewed, it is | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
most regrettable that the government has only done this when events have | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
been dramatically exposed by the media and indeed My Honourable | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
Friend the member for Sheffield Healy and Birkenhead. Whilst | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
Concentrix will be carrying out the services far not another eight | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
months, there's a risk that without radical amendment to the contract | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
itself, service will continue. Most concerning is that the payment model | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
creates a conflict of interest as noted by the Social Security | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
advisory committee. Can the Minister confirm what arrangement she will | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
make to urgently revise the contract to preserve justice for the | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
claimants? Furthermore, as you stated, I understand HMRC will | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
redeploy 150 staff so that they claimants can get through to | :13:15. | :13:16. | |
advisers and resolve their claims. Can the Minister say that the | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
government will monitor this going forward, and all the government | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
commit to an official investigation into Concentrix's conduct since | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
being awarded a contract in 2014, so that we can determine how this | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
situation was allowed to arise, and one final point, Mr Speaker. As the | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
minister given any consideration to the real prospect of bringing this | :13:42. | :13:52. | |
service back in-house? Mr Speaker, it is worth making the comment, I | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
think that this is a very complicated system that this | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
government, the previous government, indeed inherited, and it is the case | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
that long-term, the right answer is to replace tax credits, as is our | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
intention, because it is an unnecessarily complex system that we | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
will bequeath. But we must make it work whilst it is in operation and | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
that is now the focus of our activities. With regard to the | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
contract and a decision that HMRC have taken, I want to reassure the | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
House that monitoring has been taking place on a regular basis | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
throughout the contract, and HMRC have worked closely with Concentrix, | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
but it is the case that it is documented in recent weeks that | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
performance has not been right, and clearly, that has been something | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
that we have noted and which we are now taking action on. With regard to | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
the contract going forward, as I think I mentioned in my statement, | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
Concentrix will be focusing on resolving expanding claims are not | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
opening new ones. In other words the ones that they are already open, | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
will be looking to deal with in an orderly and appropriate manner, and | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
HMRC is putting in additional resources, focusing on those | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
difficult cases where we have heard some high-profile examples in recent | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
days, and to make sure that we get those resolved in the quickest | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
possible time, to ensure that vulnerable constituents of all of us | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
are helped and supported. So that is the key focus. I don't think there | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
is any need to go into inquiries etc. We have a contract. It is | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
monitored regularly, it is not going to be renewed when it ends in May | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
next year, and the focus, I think, for all of us, and for me and for | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
HMRC in the coming days and weeks, is in making sure that we get | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
through outstanding cases and resolve them, particularly those | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
involving the most vulnerable, and we make sure that people have the | :15:52. | :15:53. | |
money to which they are correctly entitled. | :15:54. | :16:01. | |
I have got cases of women who have had their tax credits stop because | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
they have been told they are living with a man they have never heard of, | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
they have had their benefits withdrawn. I am not sure that I need | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
advice tomorrow morning in one Parliament St when the House is | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
sitting. What we need to know is how quickly these cases can be reviewed. | :16:24. | :16:34. | |
I quite understand. The drop-in is bearish as a facility as members | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
should want to use it, but there is an alternative to the HMRC lines | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
already in place. We would encourage anyone to call the HMRC number. We | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
are putting significant resource with immediate effect to make sure | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
we can resolve that. I am reassured and I will be talking to HMRC | :16:56. | :17:02. | |
consistently on this fact, as soon as we can resolve a case and the | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
facts of a case, weakening get money into people's accounts in a short | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
number of days. -- can get. I am delighted that the macro one | :17:17. | :17:18. | |
contract is not to be renewed, that will as some comfort by those | :17:19. | :17:26. | |
affected by their activity. -- Concentrix. The minister tells us | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
some 300 million has been saved. How much of the so-called savings were | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
as a result of false accusations by Concentrix against tax credit | :17:38. | :17:44. | |
recipients? If there were somewhere between 120 many thousands of people | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
why was this contract not cancelled sooner? The cost of the contract is | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
also meant to be ?75 million, how much will the government claw Pack | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
to compensate those affected? The ministers tell us that civil | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
servants have been drafted in to clean up the mess. How much will | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
that cost the tax payer in additional pay and will the | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
government be seeking payments from Concentrix to fund that remedial | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
action? Will there are one of two of the points that the honourable | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
gentleman raises their I am not able to respond to. My priority and that | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
of HMRC officials at the moment is to make sure we resolve the | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
outstanding cases, especially difficult cases for vulnerable | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
constituents. We are not renewing the contract but we do intend to | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
continue to bear down on fraud, there is a lot of fraud in the | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
system. But we had a great deal of success in recent years and reducing | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
that. It has have from 100 million to 400 million in terms of the | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
amount of fraud in the system and we need to bear down on that because | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
obviously money that is fraudulently obtained is not available to | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
taxpayers and it remains a vital matter that we do address that. But | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
for the moment, my primary consideration is to resolve the most | :19:17. | :19:25. | |
difficult cases. I am a supporter of those trying to get on in life. And | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
depend on tax credit. One of the concerns I have is that over the | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
next eight months, they will have that fear of being falsely accused | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
and prosecuted almost as they go forward. What reassurance can the | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
then Minister give that those people will be looked after and will HMRC | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
carry on with the contract going forward or will the look for a new | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
tender? I have laid down the arrangements are in place. HMRC will | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
be supporting Concentrix around the outstanding cases. In particular | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
looking at complex cases, supporting back-office functions while | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
Concentrix staff look at resolving already open cases. It is important | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
to put a bit of perspective on this. There are a lot of claims that have | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
been correctly identified as being erroneous or fraudulently which | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
Concentrix have assisted the government, and indeed the taxpayer | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
in identifying. And I think it is important to keep this in | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
perspective. But HMRC have made it clear they will not continue the | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
contract beyond the spring. Can I thank the Minister and HMRC reacting | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
so quickly two issues I have raised in this House. Several questions | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
remain. What estimation has been made of the backlog that has to be | :20:52. | :20:57. | |
dealt with by Concentrix and HMRC? How should people contact | :20:58. | :21:03. | |
Concentrix? Should the contact them through the current helpline or | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
contact-macro to directly? Why were these not acted on is HMRC were | :21:07. | :21:14. | |
monitoring the contract so closely? Will they be bringing the contact | :21:15. | :21:21. | |
back in House next year? Will he -- she commit to a review to the | :21:22. | :21:30. | |
systems that are inappropriate in our organisations? She has been very | :21:31. | :21:39. | |
active in these issues. With regard to performance, it is important to | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
note, and the figures of performance does support this, that actually it | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
is only in recent weeks particular the performance has been not | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
acceptable. It has, it is not a case that has been something that has | :22:00. | :22:01. | |
been acute problem for a considerable length of time, but it | :22:02. | :22:10. | |
is the proper -- fact that performance has not been acceptable | :22:11. | :22:12. | |
in recent weeks. With regard to who people should contact. They should | :22:13. | :22:14. | |
contact the number on the letters that they have received. I am aware | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
of the problems of getting through on the phones in recent weeks. And | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
indeed I have tested that for myself, so what we are doing is | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
putting that additional to allow Concentrix to concentrate on | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
focusing on existing cases so staff can resolve some of the back office | :22:36. | :22:45. | |
problems. In terms of mandatory considerations, some or are coming | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
in, but we think there are around 2500 in the system at the moment | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
left to be dealt with. We do expect more to come in because it is that | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
time of year after people who have not supplied additional information | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
as requested, have seen their tax credits potentially stopped. We can | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
with the additional resources, resolve that very quickly. And that | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
is my focus. Can my honourable friend clarify for the House, the | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
position now is that Concentrix will not deal with any new claims cases. | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
Who from HMRC or whoever is going to deal with claims of errors, fraud | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
and other systems, so we send a strong signal to people that this is | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
not going to be acceptable but we want to see the genuine claimants | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
compensated for the money they need? I can reassure my honourable friend | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
that it has been the case that both Concentrix and HMRC were pursuing | :23:45. | :23:51. | |
claims of error and fraud. HMRC will continue to pursue cases of error | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
and fraud. The government has put in additional resource in recent years | :23:57. | :24:02. | |
into supporting the general tax avoidance and evasion compliance | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
aspects of HMRC's work. May I thank the Minister for her statement and | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
drop to the House how different this responses from previous | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
governments's response. I do not believe we have would have had to | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
be's statement had we not had a leadership election, so I thank her | :24:24. | :24:25. | |
for that. Might she thank on her thanks to the colleague for the | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
immediate action she took on the report that I submitted on Hermes | :24:31. | :24:39. | |
where the revenue had been asked to investigate their unlawful use of | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
self-employment. The two questions that I would like to ask. Worries | :24:43. | :24:49. | |
about this contract is that they appear to some people to be cutting | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
benefit and asking questions afterwards. And there is no | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
mechanism by which MPs have got a hotline to try and sort out those | :25:01. | :25:10. | |
issues out. Well very much work King -- working to bring the work in | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
House, might she acknowledge that this is a contract in place where a | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
private company is able to make a decision on benefit money for | :25:26. | :25:36. | |
people? It could be deemed as quite cheeky tasks many questions. Mr | :25:37. | :25:48. | |
Speaker, I thank the right macro -- to honourable member around fact | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
that it is priority to resolve issues of this nature. I do think it | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
is again be it a rating that through this contract we have secured to | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
?280 million of identified savings in terms of error and fraud and that | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
it continues to be considerable fraud and regard to where people are | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
living singularly in a household. I do not think it is important to | :26:16. | :26:22. | |
recognise this contract has brought benefits to those area. This | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
contract does have its place but it work appropriately and it must do | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
what it is set out to do and it should work for taxpayers and should | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
work for the vulnerable. I will reflect on as wide a point if I may. | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
I want to give him reassurance on that Gerald Bull point. All members | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
of the House will have received a deluge of harrowing cases of people | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
who have had cause to have interaction with Concentrix. The | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
first of all they were even unsure this company existed, they thought | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
it was a scam letter, of all we see far too often. There has been for | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
delay in post-opening and try to get through on the telephone has been | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
next to impossible. This has been a service level that has an acceptable | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
in the public sector. Can she assured us that her statement shows | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
this government is committed to helping the vulnerable immediately | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
and accurately? I thank my honourable friend for those | :27:27. | :27:29. | |
comments, I hope it does show that. These contracts, right across | :27:30. | :27:37. | |
government we have important contracts with people to provide a | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
server, but they need to be provided to an acceptable standard. -- | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
service. HMRC have taken into account operational performance | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
issues. I think the focus for all of us, for ministers, for HMRC and | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
individual members working in their constituency capacities as to make | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
sure our most vulnerable constituents are supported as soon | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
as possible to make sure that money they are entitled to hits their bank | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
accounts and they do not have the stress of wondering where that money | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
is good to come from. All of us as constituency members of Parliament | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
can relay stories of how the service contract has worked and has been | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
deplorable. But on the issue of the jobs that will be lost, some of them | :28:24. | :28:30. | |
in Belfast, can she tell us what contact she has had with the | :28:31. | :28:32. | |
Northern Ireland executive or the HMRC has had with the relevant | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
devolved administrations regions are about the effect on jobs and what | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
will be done to give support to those who will lose jobs? I think it | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
is important to note that the decision has been taken by HMRC not | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
to renew the contract, so to that extent the decision for a private | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
company like Concentrix as to what they do beyond that point is a | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
matter for them. But I am sure that in the normal way, if the right | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
honourable gentleman has concerns that nature, we would be happy to | :29:06. | :29:15. | |
top term. This is not a decision to end the contract here and no, it is | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
a decision not to renew it in the spring. What other steps being taken | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
by the government to protect the vulnerable in this situation. Can my | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
honourable friend assure them a House that the lessons learned in | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
this case will not be applied to the hat contract in May, but across more | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
contracts across government widely? I hope I can give that reassurance | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
that not just in the future but obviously in the past and to date, | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
it has always been the case that when the government contracts with | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
the supplier to provide a service, that it should be provided to the | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
right standard, that contract will be monitored and we make sure that | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
service levels are except 22 members and to their constituents. Despite | :30:02. | :30:09. | |
what the Minister has said earlier, I have constituents who have had | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
their tax credits cut off without receiving any prior notification and | :30:16. | :30:27. | |
has spent up to 70 minutes on the phone tried to get through. Which is | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
a huge drain on the resources. Can she tell us whether the contract | :30:31. | :30:32. | |
included penalties for concentric 's not providing an acceptable service | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
level or answering call is within a set time, if not, who will take the | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
responsibility or negotiating such a flood contract? -- Concentrix. | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
Waiting 70 minutes to have a collards and is not acceptable. I | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
would understand the distress caused. I am going to write to the | :30:55. | :31:01. | |
honourable lady about that, I do not have the detail at hand. I need to | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
assess what we can sleep in terms of commercial content or shouted -- the | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
in terms of commercial confidentiality. | :31:12. | :31:13. | |
The National Audit Office found that the Concentrix contract delivered | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
savings of half ?1 million in 2014-15 compared with the original | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
estimate of ?285 million and was expected to deliver at best half the | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
original savings planned in the contract and as we have heard from | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
constituency post Banks, a large number of errors in the process. | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
What more can the government do to improve the tendering process in | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
future, particularly at HMRC and to improve the managerial capability at | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
HMRC, so that we don't have these mistakes in the future? This is a | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
payment by results contract. As I said in my response to the | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
honourable lady, at the outset, Concentrix will not be paid where | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
they have not acted appropriately and not what the result. Clearly, it | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
is important we get these things right. I take the point that My | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
Honourable Friend has made and I do give him the reassurance that HMRC | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
and government ministers will also raise seek to get the right | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
contracts, but where there are lessons to be learned, we must | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
reflect on them and make sure that they are then reflected in future | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
arrangements. Last week in evidence to the Institute of government, the | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
former Secretary of State, the member for Chingford and Woodford | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
Green admitted that outsourcing to the private sector was not a | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
panacea. Is it not surely with this fiasco around this contract, time | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
for a full review of outsourcing to private companies in the welfare | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
system, actually looking at whether it is appropriate at all or if it is | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
going to continue to be done, what better provision is done by civil | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
servants to oversee these contracts to ensure that these things do not | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
happen again? Again, I would urge members to keep a degree of | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
perspective. There are lots of contracts that deliver. It is worth | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
noting that this contract delivered more than ?280 million of savings to | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
the taxpayer, which represents a sensible return on that investment | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
but service levels must be acceptable to the standard that we | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
have contracted. And there are circumstances in which the use of a | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
private company offers a cost-effective way for government | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
departments to do something which it might not have either the flexible | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
capacity to do or might be for an uncertain period where the | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
flexibility of this nature of contract offers is easier than doing | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
it in-house. I take the points he has made and I will reflect on them | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
but I don't draw the same general conclusion that he has. I very much | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
welcome the statement by the Minister and concur with the point | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
made by the member for the new Forest. The Minister will know that | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
sometimes genuine errors can be made by constituents or by HMRC, and | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
going by my casework or constituency surgeries sometimes that full | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
compassion is not shown by HMRC when a genuine error is made and cannot | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
be done in those difficult circumstances for those most | :34:29. | :34:32. | |
vulnerable and in need? I have the same experience as My Honourable | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
Friend. Only last week in a constituency surgery I sat with the | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
constituent who had a very complex case and was a difficult situation. | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
It is the case that, obviously we can take it up on behalf of | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
constituents, but when constituents deal with HMRC, it is important that | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
they explain the circumstances and HMRC will make every effort to | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
quickly resolve the situation and they are very aware of the need to | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
get people sorted out and get money into their bank accounts as | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
appropriate, and quickly, but it is something that I will reemphasise, | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
it is something I have discussed in recent days and clearly, the | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
interest in this urgent question and the points being made on all sides | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
of the House will be heard where they need to be heard. A significant | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
number of my constituents have been left financially disadvantaged as a | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
result of the antics and the processes at Concentrix. Can the | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
Minister reassure this House at last the priority is to resolve those | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
case is urgently, she should look into finding this company and using | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
those resources to compensate my constituents who have experienced | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
financial distress. I will ask HMRC to advise me on what the nature of | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
on that it is again something that on that it is again something that | :35:52. | :36:00. | |
could be arranged. As a constituency MP who has dealt with the number of | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
cases I am pleased that action will be taken. As a member of the Public | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
Accounts Committee I have sat through reports on the quality of | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
service HMRC provider which is hardly gold standard at times. What | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
reassurance can the Minister provide that we will not see a drop-off in | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
services elsewhere in terms of standards and future arrangements as | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
well with HMRC? I don't believe that will be the case. HMRC has been | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
dealing with cases at the same time as Concentrix throughout this period | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
of the contract. I have been sure that the 150 additional staff | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
deployed with immediate effect are going to be focused on this. I have | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
no reason to believe that any other services. . But his point is well | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
made and will be reemphasise to HMRC. I'm glad to hear that the | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
Concentrix contract is ending. As the Minister mentioned, they will be | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
dealing with ongoing casework. Can she personally intervened to help my | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
constituent who has been plunged into ?1300 worth of debt through the | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
incompetence of Concentrix and they failed to processes annual review | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
review and refused to technology any of my correspondence. Will she take | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
up this case, please? Of course. If any member wishes to write to me I | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
will ask HMRC to look at it as a matter of priority. If she wanted to | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
come, if any other member wants to bring a similar complex case | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
tomorrow to the drop-in, HMRC officials will be available but if | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
she would like to write me of course I will look at it. I first raised | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
this issue last January. It has taken eight months to get to this | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
and that was about a family over the Christmas period who did not have | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
any income. Why does it take the BBC programme two days running to bring | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
ministers to the dispatch box? On Monday a member of my staff was | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
given the runaround between HMRC and Concentrix. On the basis that nobody | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
would take responsibility. My constituents have spent hours on | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
this. I think that involving the private sector in a sensitive issue | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
like this does not work. I'm sorry to hear that the honourable | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
gentleman had that difficult experience. I can't agree with his | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
general point that there is no role for the private sector in this | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
regard. I would refer again to the amount of money saved for the | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
taxpayer. There was a lot of error and fraud in the system. It is | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
important that we bear down on this. Clearly, we don't want money going | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
to people for whom it is not appropriate, and this issue around | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
the nature of people'shouseholds, most of the fraud, much of the fraud | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
does rest in that area. As he highlighted, it is a particularly | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
difficult and sensitive area to investigate. We need to continue to | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
investigate it because of the amount of fraud involved in that area of | :39:08. | :39:16. | |
tax credits is considerable. We can all share the stories of anguish to | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
constituents and frustration for our officers in dealing with this | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
debacle, but we should also remember that the HMRC itself is not an | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
innocent agent in this. It designed this contract. It specified customer | :39:31. | :39:40. | |
hostility and suspicion into the standards of performance and | :39:41. | :39:43. | |
practice in the contract and it was HMRC that were providing the names | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
that were targeted by Concentrix and this is against the backdrop were | :39:49. | :39:51. | |
government has persisted in running down the capacity and character of | :39:52. | :39:58. | |
HMRC. So, will some of those bigger misguided policies be looked at as | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
well as the enjoyment were having today in scapegoating Concentrix | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
themselves? I return to the answer I gave a moment ago. We need to | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
continue to bear down on four unit -- fraud in the system. There is a | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
considerable amount of error and fraud. It would be naive to think | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
that all of this is error. There is fraud in the system. But there is a | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
lot of error which the original design of tax credits makes easier. | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
So it is the case that we need to continue to bear down on fraud, but | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
we need to do it in a way that doesn't make it difficult to the -- | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
to assist the most vulnerable. The Minister has mentioned fraud a | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
number of times. There is fraud in the system but I don't see it as an | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
excuse for the errors and the failures that constituents like | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
Sarah Hudson, with three Jobim, struggling to put food on the table. | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
It is no excuse for incompetent contractors. The main point I'd like | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
to make is that I'm glad about the redeployment of HMRC staff to | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
support people. The HMRC office in my constituency and Workington which | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
employs 200 people is due for closure. The nearest regional office | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
is more than two hours Drive away. The phone system is not working and | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
not helping people with their inquiries. We need to review the | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
closure of local offices so that people can keep the support and | :41:29. | :41:31. | |
face-to-face contact that base a much need in situations like this. | :41:32. | :41:37. | |
I'm sorry to hear about the case that she mentions on behalf of her | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
constituent. She raises wider issue about the modernisation project that | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
HMRC is going through, and perhaps it would be appropriate if she wrote | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
to me. It is important, in terms of the modernisation of HMRC as it goes | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
forward, the process that she has described, although it does mean | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
some regional offices are being close. It is an important one, | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
fundamentally, because it is about delivering a better, more modernised | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
service into the future for all of our constituents. I trust that there | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
will be some compensation paid by the company, first of all on whether | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
the contract should have been handled and the way that costs of | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
Bianco, but were other people talking today about how wonderful it | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
would be if this had been brought in House. It wasn't long ago that this | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
House was condemning HMRC for not answering more than half of the | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
telephone calls made by constituents about tax matters. What steps as the | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
minister taken to ensure that new cases will be brought in-house, and | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
that there will not be the same problems with HMRC, as there was | :42:51. | :42:59. | |
with Concentrix? It is obviously documented that at times in the past | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
HMRC have had problems with the phones, but some of the information | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
that has been in the public domain of late has been rather out of date | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
and indeed performance in answering the phones is considerably better | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
and indeed has reached a very good standard in recent weeks. It is | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
important that in all of these things we retain some balance and, | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
with regard to the point around Concentrix, again, worth noting that | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
they have amended around 103,000 claims following checks that they | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
have made. This has been an important exercise but clearly, it | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
needs to be done in the right way. I welcome pennies from the Minister | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
that Concentrix will not get their contract renewed. -- I will the | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
news. But in the meantime, there has been talk about what is | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
unacceptable. Some of the focus on fraud, what we are talking about | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
here today are errors that have been made at which have caused tremendous | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
suffering. We're not talking about occasional exceptions. We are | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
talking about widespread numbers of errors that have been made causing | :44:13. | :44:18. | |
exceptional misery to some families. One of my constituents, a single | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
mother of four, tax credits were in error, and as a result of that, | :44:25. | :44:32. | |
children can no longer access school dinners, the baby, she can't get | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
free milk tokens for, and she's being told, more importantly, | :44:36. | :44:45. | |
that... Will the Minister assure me that she will look into this as a | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
matter of urgency to make sure that this mother can continue to feed her | :44:50. | :44:50. | |
children? I am sorry to hear her constituents | :44:51. | :45:02. | |
has had such a difficult time. I would urge her to use the resource I | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
have referred to take that up. I hope that can be resolved that we as | :45:08. | :45:14. | |
soon as possible. I have emphasised and HMRC are aware of this, speed is | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
of the essence where people have had their tax credits erroneously | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
stopped. She is right, there is an error in the system. This is to | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
complex system and that is why the government is looking to make a | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
major long-term reform to the way we do this, because even the honest | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
taxpayer can easily fall into error in a system that was so complex and | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
its design from the start. As we sit here, families up and down the | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
country have had to rely on charity and food bags to make ends meet due | :45:50. | :45:57. | |
to ridiculous decisions made by Concentrix. Given that so many are | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
living a day to day existence, can the Minister confirm just how | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
quickly people can be elected to receive the money they are rightly | :46:10. | :46:19. | |
entitled? The HMRC, the point to which the facts are resolved, it is | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
important we do that quickly, at the point we have done that and that may | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
be in the course of one phone call, I am assured and this is what I | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
expect to see, in a matter of around four working days, no longer, we get | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
money into people's accounts. This is a matter of days, not weeks. But | :46:41. | :46:46. | |
we need to establish those facts. It is worsening, for the sake of the | :46:47. | :46:49. | |
House having some sense of the perspective on this, -- worth | :46:50. | :46:56. | |
saying. 6% of customers asked for a review of a decision following a | :46:57. | :47:04. | |
cheque. That is a large number of people being checked, but | :47:05. | :47:06. | |
nevertheless it would be wrong to think that this was a huge | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
proportion of the cases. It is important we get those ones right | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
and we look to pay people within days, as soon as we have established | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
the facts of the case. The Minister says that HMRC is supporting | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
Concentrix in performing their contract ending next year. What is | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
the cost to the public purse of that support that is being provided and | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
is that recoverable from Concentrix? It has always been the case that as | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
you would expect managers within HMRC have been working with | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
Concentrix throughout, so I don't anticipate that will be an enormous | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
additional costs because there has always been a relationship between | :47:51. | :47:52. | |
the two because there has been some overlap in the work to be done and I | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
would expect that they continue as we work towards the end of the | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
contract. The Minister is engaged in crisis management, crisis management | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
itself is not good enough. In the opening statement she said that | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
Concentrix are not allowed to fish. They have been fishing. One of my | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
constituents got a letter wanting ?10,000 in back payments. | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
Investigation is needed soon and it needs to look at the contract terms, | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
order process and Concentrix behaviour and needs to look what is | :48:32. | :48:41. | |
the true resource requirements. Unless she announces this, we will | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
be back here in a couple of your's time. Macro to has operational | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
experience to deliver the kind of savings we are looking for in terms | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
of reducing error and fraud. -- two. Practical measures in going forward | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
in simplifying the system, and improving detection of fraud are | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
important parts of making sure we improve performance going for it. It | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
is worth noting again that we have saved hundreds of millions of pounds | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
to the taxpayer by reducing error and fraud but we want to make it | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
harder in the future for people to make errors. As long as I have been | :49:19. | :49:26. | |
one of their MPs, HMRC has treated people in the Wirral with this | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
respect and indignity and this is just the worst in a long series of | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
cases. Can I asked the minister one question, when did she first meet | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
Concentrix to raise our concerns with them for? I have been a | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
minister since mid-July, I have not met Concentrix, I have not been a | :49:46. | :49:52. | |
minister for that long. Clearly colleagues, previous colleagues have | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
done that. But I have been working with HMRC to look at the regular | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
monitoring and given the interest from colleagues across the House in | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
recent weeks, I have been getting daily updates for HMRC in terms of | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
performance. But in the relatively short time, given that we have had | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
summer recess, being in my post, I have not met them. I am sure HMRC | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
will be disappointed to hear what she has dizzy but I think they would | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
want to reflect on her words. To say. One of the issues reported by | :50:26. | :50:36. | |
my constituents is the requirement to send all the documentation by | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
registered post which costs over ?13. This is money that they can ill | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
afford when they're living on the bread line. Will the Secretary of | :50:45. | :50:53. | |
State will look -- look urgently at ways of sending documentation in the | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
remaining ones that Concentrix have the contract? I will ask that | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
question, but I cannot give any assurance if it is possible to alter | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
that in the contract left to run. She highlights an important point | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
about where we go in the future with these sorts of systems. The more | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
that we can make these things Digital and make them really easy | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
for people to get right, the more likely we are to avoid these unhappy | :51:21. | :51:29. | |
situations. The financial Secretary must know I tabled five questions on | :51:30. | :51:36. | |
this issue on Monday. With 1800 people in Belfast employed by | :51:37. | :51:44. | |
Concentrix, with Concentrix redeveloping down to one location in | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
the city of Belfast, could I ask to reflect how appalling that was that | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
members of staff, many of my constituents, found out this news | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
last night from a tweet by the BBC, as by any information from | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
Concentrix and any information from this House. As I have said a number | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
of times, the contract is not being renewed. It has not been terminated. | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
The consideration of whether quite any contract is renewed is something | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
that takes place in the normal course of events. The honourable | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
gentleman does give me an opportunity to place on record my | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
thanks to the many, many Concentrix staff who are doing a job. It is as | :52:26. | :52:35. | |
the same time as we shine a light on where Adam -- form is as | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
unacceptable, there are many people who are doing a good job and | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
providing a good level of service. Many people are succeeding in that | :52:45. | :52:51. | |
regard. I know the Minister says she sees no need for an enquiry but I | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
and I know many colleagues in the chamber today and certainly | :52:56. | :52:57. | |
constituents of us would disagree with that position. My question | :52:58. | :53:05. | |
would be how can we learn lessons to ensure these practices employed by | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
Concentrix don't ever come to light again if we don't look into the | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
practices carried out by some form of investigation or enquiry? I think | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
it is right that in the normal course of events we would always | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
look to, at looking at how we arrange things in the future, to | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
reflect on what we can learn from things that have already happened, | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
and that would be something you would do through a normal process of | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
review and consideration. We will just have to agree to differ with | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
regard to the issue whether an enquiry is needed. I have been | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
contacted by so many distressed moment in my constituency about or | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
how awful Concentrix is. Some advisers have suggested that they | :53:49. | :53:56. | |
were only trying to renew their tax credits to get payday loans to feed | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
their children. Once the claim is processed. There is a grouping | :54:00. | :54:08. | |
formed with over 5000 members. On this group, mothers share the horror | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
stories. I will just give a couple. One will suffice. One it is. The | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
lady may have got the Burnley condition. Does that involve | :54:23. | :54:31. | |
shoehorning. No? OK. One mother hadn't eaten first three days so | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
that she could feed her children. This is sickening and should be | :54:36. | :54:44. | |
stopped. It should have been stopped a long time ago. I am aware of the | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
face group group she mentions and the nature of the cases documented | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
there. To end on when I began, Mr Speaker, that is why we are | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
deploying additional reason so we can deal with the most difficult | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
cases where people are vulnerable in the quickest time possible and that | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
will be my focus and that of HMRC in the coming days. Order. I am most | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
grateful for the financial Secretary and colleagues. Point of order, Mr | :55:12. | :55:21. | |
Gareth Morris. She said she would make an announcement at some point | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
next week. While the reply Lou Schmidt fund is next week and | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
represents a hard deadline, given the scale of taxpayers funding at | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
stake, will fully up to ?1.2 billion, should not this House of | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
Commons representative as we are of the British taxpayers interest be | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
informed first before any briefings to the media or to other countries? | :55:45. | :55:54. | |
It is a matter for ministers. Announcements are made and | :55:55. | :55:56. | |
frequently are during recess periods. But if the government knows | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
what it is that it intends to announce, I would hope that it would | :56:02. | :56:07. | |
be sensitive to the prior claim of members of this House, first to be | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
informed, rather than for the information to be disseminated | :56:15. | :56:16. | |
through the media. Or to some other less deserving source. I hope that | :56:17. | :56:26. | |
deals with the matter for now. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
for raising this issue. These often need to be announced in the House | :56:33. | :56:44. | |
anyway. When it made have been -- to have been made earlier to the House. | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
When it was delivered to the House, I ensured that everybody questioned | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
the relevant ministers sought a considerable allocation of time was | :56:56. | :56:57. | |
required. It is better if the government anticipates these things | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
in the first place rather than waiting on later than necessary. On | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
the presentation of the bill, the Minister of the exchequer. Second | :57:08. | :57:18. | |
reading, what day? Tomorrow. Presentation of Bill, Raymond Tisch | :57:19. | :57:26. | |
day. Health services commissioning equality Bill. Second reading, what | :57:27. | :57:38. | |
day? 2nd of December 20 16. Air quality, diesel emissions. 18th of | :57:39. | :57:55. | |
November 2000 16. Sugar and food and drinks, targets labelling and label | :57:56. | :58:05. | |
information Bill. Friday the 4th of November 20 16. The honourable | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
gentleman will prove to be a busy bee. He is buzzing away now. Her | :58:14. | :58:22. | |
helpfully as he points out. We come to the ten minute rule motion. Ten | :58:23. | :58:33. | |
minute rule motion, Charlie Elphicke. I beg the leave be given | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
to bring in a bill to plumb on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom | :58:40. | :58:41. | |
from membership of the European Union and her connected furnaces. | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
Brexit means Brexit and we will make a success of it. It also means | :58:49. | :58:56. | |
Brexit means Brexit and it means we need to get on with it. The mantle | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
of Article 50 is a matter for the Prime Minister alone. She has the | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
mandate of the masses given to her on June the 23rd and it is right | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
that she invoke it. I hope the sooner she invokes that the better | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
so we have the security, the stability and the certainty we need | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
as we seek to build a post Brexit Britain. I bring this House, I bring | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
this bill to the House today. First to give the House an opportunity to | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
endorse and accept the decision of the British people on June the 23rd. | :59:31. | :59:38. | |
And second, to talk about the red lines that the British people | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
clearly have in terms of what Brexit will look like. And third, a | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
visionary can have for a post Brexit Britain that we will build. The | :59:46. | :59:50. | |
first issue is this issue of where members of Parliament were when it | :59:51. | :00:00. | |
came to the referendum. I'm a self was concerned about the border | :00:01. | :00:07. | |
between border -- myself concerned about the border between Dover and | :00:08. | :00:09. | |
Calais. I am here today to say that is their decision. We must endorse | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
it. This is in particular for the Labour Party to reject we should | :00:16. | :00:21. | |
have a second referendum to drive the British people back into the | :00:22. | :00:23. | |
European Union again. It is not urgent if the party opposite to say | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
we accept and will submit to the will of the British people and will | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
help make Brexit as excess. I see to the SNP as well who don't seem like | :00:34. | :00:43. | |
too -- to like the result of any referendum on these British Isles at | :00:44. | :00:55. | |
all. Including accepting the decision of the Scottish people to | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
remain part of the European union and the United Kingdom. I would say | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
to them, they would be wrong to think that if at first you don't | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
succeed, vote, vote again should be the motto. That would be the wrong | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
approach to take. Turning to the red lines of the British people, it is | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
very clear that the British people are deeply concerned about the level | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
of uncontrolled EU immigration. And they have been told and pledged in | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
manifestos that the number would be brought down of net migration to | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
tens of thousands. Last year, it was 330,000. And they are very | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
concerned, people on Dover tell me on a regular basis, about the | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
pressure this makes on their wages and they have been underlined and | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
proved right. By important research that showed it has wages to be ?450 | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
lower for hard-working classes of Britain. | :02:01. | :02:12. | |
There is work by the OECD published in 2014 that underlines that mass | :02:13. | :02:21. | |
migration does not, and has not, benefited the people of Britain or | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
across the world in general. It does not have an economic good and work | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
for the British people in their daily lives. So that red line is | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
clear. We must end uncontrolled EU immigration. And the second point, | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
underlined by Apple recently published by Lord Ashcroft, that | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
people do not want to have billions for Brussels -- underlined by an | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
opinion poll recently published. We cannot have a Brexit deal that | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
involves handing over billions to Brussels. That money should be | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
invested at home in Britain. We need to have a renaissance for the towns | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
and regions of Britain and we should use that money wisely which brings | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
me to the final point I want to make in this bill, and the most important | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
point, what is the kind of post-Brexit Britain that we're going | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
to build? What is this country going to look like? And by constituents | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
say to me, it always seems to be about investing in HS2, or runways | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
at Heathrow, or ?4.7 billion for Crossrail, it always seems to be | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
about benefiting London or the jet elite. What about us in Dover? Why | :03:34. | :03:45. | |
not dual the A2? Every region of this country will tell you about an | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
infrastructure project, and that it always seems to work for the London | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
metropolitan populist rather than regions. We need to have a | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
rebalancing of this country for the 90% that live in their towns and | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
regions of this nation rather than the capital. It is time for a | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
Britain that works for everyone and to have capital expenditure working | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
for everyone as well. London gets ?10,000 up public expenditure per | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
head, the Southeast less than 8000. It is a difference of some 26%. My | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
constituents say that the allegation resources isn't there, getting this | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
money back from Brussels is an opportunity to make it fair. Then | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
this issue of who does Britain work for, and who do the constituents of | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
the towns and regions of this nation, who did it feel that it | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
works for? That too often, it works for people like Philip Green, the | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
privileged few, rather than the hard working class kids of Dover Deal, | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
and Doncaster and Darlington and they think that that needs to | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
change. Big business needs to have a change of culture. We know about how | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
Apple have been gaming the tax system and how when it comes to the | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
tax system in this country there are bad Apple and we know that Amazon | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
have a Luxembourg structure, and we should look closely into their | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
books, and I hope that HMRC will do that. We must make sure that when it | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
comes to Google, the Public Accounts Committee is supported in making | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
sure that Google pays a fair share of tax in this country and when it | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
comes to car rental businesses like Avis, that gestured that we are | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
being taken for a ride when they are imposing a Brexit tax on British | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
people but not paying any corporation tax to Britain, because | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
they have a Luxembourg structure. It is that kind of thing that drives | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
the people of Dover Deal round the bend and we need to put a stop to | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
it. We can do that when we leave the European Union. Very simply, we can | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
do that, because we will not be stuck by anti-discrimination rules | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
that make it hard for us to secure our tax base. We must make sure that | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
Britain's works with people as a whole, rather than for the bloated | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
boardroom bonuses that we have seen too much of recently, and too much | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
in years. The ground-breaking research that the member for Croydon | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
South showed is that pay in the boardroom is 150 times that for | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
chief executives, than it is for employees of FTSE 100 companies. | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
That is not right, and yet that has doubled in the last 12 years. | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
Companies like BP say, we are not accountable to you, we will do what | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
we like. That kind of culture needs to change. We must have a country | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
that works for everyone, not just the privileged few. It is really | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
important, then, that we make sure that when we have investment, we | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
have more further regions, regions like Bristol, Birmingham and | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
Manchester that we have railways that work for everyone in the | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
regions as well with bigger investment and that we have roads | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
further regions as well. So, in closing, I simply say this, Brexit | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
means Brexit. We are going to make a success of it, but it is an | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
opportunity to change how we run Britain and the change of a national | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
way of life, to change with the country works for, and to make sure | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
that it works for the truly everyone, rather than just the | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
privileged few, as it has for too long. That is a kind of change we | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
can make. It was the towns and regions of this country take this | :07:16. | :07:25. | |
country out of the European Union, and it was the towns and regions of | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
this country that should be supported in leading the charge to | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
have a future that we can build as we head out into the single market | :07:31. | :07:33. | |
of the world. The question is that the honourable member has lead to | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
bring in the bill, Stewart Hosie. To decline the honourable member about | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
to bring in his bill. He said that we in Scotland, the SNP in | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
particular should "Respect the decision, the outcome of the | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
referendum". Madam Deputy Speaker, I very much respect the outcome of | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
those nations who voted to leave the EU. I would simply say to my friend | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
from Dover that perhaps he and his colleagues should respect the wishes | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
of those nations who voted to remain in the EU. It is always sweet, I | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
think, to be chided by the honourable member for Dover. He | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
railed against the Jetset elite. He talked about the imbalance in | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
boardroom pay. We don't need to leave the EU and destroy | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
opportunities to tackle imbalance in boardroom pay. He talked about the | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
imbalance in public spending, and he was right to do so. Other parts of | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
the country, the East Berlin, the north-west of England, get even less | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
than the south-east gets, such is the imbalance. We don't need to | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
leave the EU, and we can job opportunities and export | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
opportunities, in order to rebalance public spending throughout the | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
English regions. If only we had an English Parliament to deal with | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
these things, things would be so much better. The honourable | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
gentleman spoke about corporate tax, and how little is paid by some of | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
the Goliath s of the global corporate world. We don't to leave | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
the EU and we can opportunity further in order to deliver fairness | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
and corporate taxation. In essence, the honourable gentleman made a | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
pitch to leave now, because he said Brexit means Brexit and we will make | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
a success of it. I think I am quoting accurately. The problem, | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, and why no one can support this, is when the Prime | :09:39. | :09:47. | |
Minister, the leader of government, the high heid yin of the Tory Party | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
is asked, if Brexit means Brexit and it means will we stay in the single | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
market, she doesn't know. When she was asked the most simple question, | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
will the passport thing in place for financial services be maintained, | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
she said, I refer you to the answer I gave last week, which is that I | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
don't actually know. On the basis that Brexit means Brexit is more -- | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
is no more than a meaningless campaigning expression and none of | :10:14. | :10:21. | |
the attributes or benefits described by the honourable gentleman in terms | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
of Brexit, tackling corporate pay, tackling corporate taxation, | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
tackling the imbalance in regional public expenditure in England, will | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
in any way, shape or form be addressed, let alone improved, by | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
Brexit, and I feel, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we're going to have | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
two call against his valiant attempts to drag the whole of the UK | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
including those parts that voted to stay in out of the EU, therefore | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
there is even a plan. The question is that the honourable member have | :10:55. | :11:04. | |
leave to bring in the bill. As many as another opinion say aye, contrary | :11:05. | :11:05. | |
know. Division, division. -- As many as are of that opinion | :11:06. | :11:34. | |
say aye, contrary no division, division. | :11:35. | :11:49. | |
The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
bill. As many as are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. Tellers for | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
the Ayes eyes Craig McKinlay, tellers for the Noes, Jeff Smith. | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
The ayes, 50. Thenos, 17 The nos have it. IBEC to note that the draft | :12:08. | :22:31. | |
wealthier and work order be approved. These will ensure that the | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
welfare reforms ensured by the welfare and reform work or that a | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
work order will be delivered in Northern Ireland. This is an | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
important part of delivering the fresh start agreement and enables | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
the Northern island executive to provide for supplementary welfare | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
payments from within their own budget. Before the fresh start | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
agreement, the impasse on agreeing the intimidation of welfare reform | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
and that the Northern Ireland executive have been operating on and | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
on workable budget. This credit significant political instability | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
and risked a collapse in the devolution settlement. This order | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
today brings changes that will help ensure the budget of the Northern | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
Ireland executive is placed on a stable footing. Madam Deputy | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
Speaker, we want to work with the Northern Ireland executive to | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
support eight Northern Ireland where politics works and a Northern | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
Ireland with a stronger economy and a stronger and secure society. It is | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
in light of these goals, that the Government agreed to legislate on | :23:32. | :23:34. | |
behalf of the executive to enable the welfare reform changes in both | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
the 2012 and the welfare reform and work out of 2016. Changes such as | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
the introduction of universal credit, personal independence | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
payment, and the benefit. It has formed an integral part of the fresh | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
start agreement in November last year. The welfare reform Northern | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
Ireland order passed in December last year has enabled the making of | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
over 30 sets of regulations, replicating in Northern Ireland the | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
welfare reforms from the 2012 act. The welfare reform and work order | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
before the house today is the next step in that process. It has been | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
drafted with the full consent and collaboration of the Northern | :24:13. | :24:22. | |
Ireland executive to bring Social Security in Northern Ireland back to | :24:23. | :24:24. | |
a position of parity, thereby helping to rebalance and | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
strengthened the finances of the executive. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :24:27. | :24:28. | |
across the UK, are welfare reforms are focused on supporting people to | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
find and keep work, a focus on employment, fairness and | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
affordability, while supporting the vulnerable. Over the past six years, | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
we have stuck to our economic plan, delivered welfare reform and seemed | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
great progress with climate up at 2.7 million. Broadening life chances | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
is a central part of this Government's plans. In Northern | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
Ireland, raising of tax thresholds will take 110,000 of the lowest paid | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
people out of income tax altogether and 700,000 people will benefit from | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
reduced taxes. 100,000 people in Northern Ireland are predicted to | :25:02. | :25:04. | |
benefit from the national living wage by 2020. The Government wants | :25:05. | :25:13. | |
to support people hand-in-hand with the welfare programme to encourage | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
people into work. We have also invested in Northern Ireland. The | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
Stormont health and fresh start agreement included packages to | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
support investment and reform. This includes ?350 million of additional | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
capital borrowing explicitly for economic development projects. By | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
working together, the Government and the executive have achieved | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
significant successes, including bringing ?69 in additional finance | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
to Northern Ireland businesses, providing additional borrowing for a | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
shared education projects and increasing green investment by ?70 | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
million. In Northern Ireland, there are 55,000 more people in employment | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
since 2010. But there is much more still to be done. The most recent | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
Northern Ireland unemployment rate of 5.6% is above the overall UK | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
average of 4.9%. The percentage of unemployed people who have been out | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
of work for more than a year is 47.8%, markedly higher than the UK | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
average of 27%. 22% of working age households in Northern Ireland are | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
workless, can to 15% in the UK as a whole. The welfare reform and work | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
act is built on the 2012 reforms, this order provides these | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
legislative framework to repeat some of its most important aspects. | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
Changes such as improving fairness in the welfare system by changing | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
the level of the benefit. This order will bring the level of the benefit | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
in Northern Ireland alongside that of Great Britain, ensuring parity. | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
Changes such as providing new funding for additional support to | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
help US eight and universal credit claimants with Alcan efficient and | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
disabilities into work as well as removing the EAS a work-related | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
activity components of the right support and the right incentives are | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
in place for those who are able to take steps back into work. Changes | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
such as correcting the unsustainable rise in benefit levels compared to | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
earnings by freezing most working age benefits. Importantly, these | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
changes will help ensure the budget of the Northern Ireland indicative | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
is placed on a stable footing. It was agreed in the fresh start | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
agreement that the executive to could supplement benefits from | :27:19. | :27:20. | |
within their own budget. The agreement allocated up to 585 | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
million pounds of the executive's block grant over four years to | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
provide for supplementary welfare payments in Northern Ireland, which | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
would be reviewed in three years. Under the 2015 order, the assembly | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
has already passed regulations for supplementary welfare payments | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
related to the 2012 order. The provision of this order will give | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
the assembly the ability to design and pass further such regulation | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
including supplementary payments to those affected by the removal of the | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
spare room subsidy. These time-limited payments follow the | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
recommendations of the Everson report, which flowed from a | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
commitment in the fresh start agreement. This order is about | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
delivering the fresh start agreement and returning Northern Ireland to a | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
position of legislative parity and financial stability and Madam Deputy | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
Speaker, I commend it to the house. The question is and is on the order | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
paper. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the member for | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
bringing this bill to the house? It is a shame it could not have been | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
resolved in Northern Ireland. In an attempt to break a budgetary | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
deadlock and avoid the potential collapse of the Stormont | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
institutions, I and many members are glad to see this deal reached and | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
credit to all of those involved. I have personally been involved in | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
Northern Ireland affairs for almost 30 years, within the trade union | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
movement, as a member of the Northern Ireland affairs committee | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
and as a juror of the British Irish Parliamentary Association. In the | :29:02. | :29:04. | |
union work I was involved in any 1990s, we worked hard to deal with | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
the peace process. We coined a phrase that we were a nonpartisan | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
agent for change. It is that phrase that has guided my work inside and | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
outside of this house. With that attitude in mind, I want to address | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
the house. My party takes great pride in the role we played in | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
bringing about in Northern Ireland. We have worked with good people on | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
the ground and from around the world, from the Good Friday | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
agreement to the fresh start agreement and much in between. We | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
have always tried to work in the best interests of the people of | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
Northern Ireland. What is paramount here today is the ongoing peace and | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
stability in Northern Ireland and we in the Labour Party will work with | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
the Government and all interested parties in this house and in | :29:49. | :29:51. | |
Northern Ireland in maintaining this, and I'm sure all members will | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
agree with that. As part of the fresh start agreement, we included | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
legislative consent for the Northern Ireland assembly and now Parliament | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
to create legislation on its behalf and I respect the authority of these | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
heavily to do that and I am sad that they have had to do it. Amongst all | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
of the measures, the welfare reform act of 2012 and 2016, it is quite | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
clear to me that the Government's welfare reform programme has | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
devastated the lives of far too many vulnerable people across the whole | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
of Great Britain, plunging them into financial distress. We heard for the | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
last hour of the discussions around the tax credit fiasco. These are | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
real people, suffering as a result of the work that this Government has | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
brought in. I and many of my members across this house have seen these | :30:44. | :30:44. | |
cuts day-to-day. We will never, in this party, stop | :30:45. | :31:01. | |
showing our opposition to the Tory austerity agenda, something we have | :31:02. | :31:03. | |
constantly railed against over recent years. We stood in opposition | :31:04. | :31:12. | |
against cuts to tax credits, a benefit cut that doesn't rise with | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
inflation, cuts to cancel tax credits, cuts to crisis loans and | :31:17. | :31:23. | |
never say to as the that 42% deemed to be fit for work were actually | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
cleared on site on appeal. What a damning indictment on the party | :31:29. | :31:36. | |
opposite. Biden Deputy Speaker, welfare reform was intended by this | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
Government to impact very, very hard on the most vulnerable people in the | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
UK and forced them into work even when they are not well equipped to | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
do so. The desire to inflict in the people of Northern Ireland the same | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
disastrous policy that has lacked the lives of so many constituents | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
right across Great Britain is a desperate tactic by a government | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
more concerned with ideology than compassion. Using austerity as a | :32:00. | :32:08. | |
weapon of policy was and still is a crude instrument. The role of | :32:09. | :32:16. | |
posterity in the note one errant -- long-term economic plan, path, the | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
language they used in seeing we will make work pay rental for those | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
forced to work while struggling with illness, injury or disease. It | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
should be shown as the truth, as government wants to make it | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
impossible for anyone to survive on benefits. That is hugely unfair to | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
those struggling day to day through no fault of their own. There may be | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
some who say these changes should apply to Northern Ireland because | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
they do across the rest of Great Britain. But two wrongs do not make | :32:47. | :32:54. | |
a right. The party opposite clearly believes in the equalisation of | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
misery. Madame Deputy Speaker, this party believes in the alleviation of | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
misery. And we would get back to power, we will not be attacking the | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
city, the young, the elderly and disabled, we will not be calling | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
them scroungers or skivers. We will not declare on anyone whose curtains | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
are not open by a specific time any day and we will not be making the | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
poor pay for the failings of the rich and those who dabbled in the | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
money markets. It is interesting, as the Minister said, that within the | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
fresh start agreement, there are measures to mitigate against the | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
ongoing austerity regime. But does that not sure that these measures | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
should not be being brought in in the first place? It is an acceptance | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
of the problems that they're going to pile on to people that do not | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
deserve them. Another issue we have advised is that these cuts will take | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
?750 million out of the Northern Ireland economy, and that lost their | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
work age adults is 38% higher than what the UK average would be, at | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
?650 per year. In Northern Ireland, the recent announcement of job | :34:02. | :34:09. | |
losses, the job losses at Ballina upwards of 850, or the Caterpillar | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
factory in Newtownabbey and others. Those men and women losing their | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
jobs would find less support than ever and this will do nothing but | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
compounded their difficulties as they try to find their way to the | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
world of unemployment. Northern Ireland, as the Minister just | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
mentioned, has some of the highest levels of long-term unemployment in | :34:30. | :34:33. | |
the United Kingdom. Almost one in ten adults of working age are in | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
receipt of disability living allowance. Almost twice the national | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
average. They are hit much more than other parts of the major kingdom. | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
Belfast in particular is the city that will be damaged most by these | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
reforms. Poverty is an all too real everyday reality for many in | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
Northern Ireland. These reforms will serve no other purpose than to | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
compound his difficulties. These cuts had the vulnerable, the | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
disabled, families and children. That is something that this party | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
will not be complicit in. We have to accept, despite the huge opposition | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
to these so-called reforms, they have been enforced on the people of | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
Great Britain but that does not make it any more palatable or give any | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
more reason to also forced the changes on the people of Northern | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
Ireland and I would say we have to accept the very real circumstances | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
in history, and the current difficulties people in Northern | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
Ireland first. According to figures from Northern Ireland statistics and | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
research agency, since 1998, more people have taken their own life in | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
Northern Ireland than died throughout the Troubles. Research | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
shows that during the recession those figures increased. The suicide | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
rate is 70% higher in Northern Ireland than the UK average. Forcing | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
the vulnerable in society further into despair will do nothing to | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
defeat this problem. We support any work aimed at maintaining the | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
long-term stability of the institutions of Northern Ireland. | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
But we also remember the days of direct rule as a testament of how | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
important it is to make sure that these institutions did not just | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
carry on but flourished and improve. On that basis, we will not block | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
this today, we will not oppose this today, but in no way should this be | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
taken that we condone what is being done by this Government to the | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
people of Northern Ireland. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could I | :36:29. | :36:36. | |
thank the honourable member, my honourable friend, for outlining the | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
position in relation to welfare reform and about the fact that it | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
can be so pernicious in bringing about bad impacts on people who are | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
already in receipt of low income? I welcome the fact that the Minister | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
is here, the Minister in the Treasury, the honourable member for | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
East Hampshire, who has outlined the position in relation to this | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
supplementary legislation. We have always been very clear about our | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
position on this, and our position is on the record. Both in this | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
chamber and in the Northern Ireland assembly. Legislation dealing with | :37:15. | :37:16. | |
welfare reform should have been dealt with in the assembly, as | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
originally envisaged. Westminster's interference into our devolved | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
welfare arrangements was inappropriate. As were the | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
subsequent fines. And I do recall, as a former minister for social | :37:32. | :37:35. | |
development in Northern Ireland for some three years, bringing forward, | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
shall we say, karaoke legislation in relation to welfare issues in terms | :37:40. | :37:47. | |
of all of the regulations, why should this have been different this | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
time? The DUP and Sinn Fein voted through the legislative consent | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
motion in the assembly to hand our welfare powers over to Westminster. | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
Indeed, far from their original promises that no claimant would be | :38:03. | :38:09. | |
worse off, Sinn Fein handed our welfare powers over to here to carry | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
out its dirty work when they do not even take their seats in this | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
chamber. The whole essence of devolution as to improve the lives | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
of people in Northern Ireland and devolution, we feel, is damaged if | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
the two largest parties in the assembly, and the Northern Ireland | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
Executive, pick and choose which powers they have and when they have | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
them. People in Northern Ireland must be able to have that confidence | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
that the political institutions upon which we agreed back in the | :38:42. | :38:50. | |
referendum, in May 1998, that they have to believe that the people and | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
the politicians are serious about the powers that they have and that | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
they will fiercely defend any attempts to reduce those powers. | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
This should have been a matter for the devolved assembly, which should | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
have resisted the Treasury's interference is and taxes on our | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
devolved budget, and instead the DUP and Sinn Fein were delighted to have | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
the power is taken off their hands for some 30 months. We made numerous | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
attempts to build consensus on welfare reform as far back as 2010. | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
-- for some 13 months. In the assembly, and in this House, when | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
the original Welfare Reform Bill was going through the House, through my | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
honourable friend the member of foil, and even before it came to the | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
assembly. We, as a party, were always realistic about the | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
implications of welfare reform and made the case for mitigation, which | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
was sustainable and which would be included in the devolved budget. And | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
I can well recall a meeting that we had, with the Minister at that | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
stage, in the Department for Work and Pensions, the Minister, who sits | :40:04. | :40:11. | |
in the other Place, Lord Freud, and at that stage, we outline specific | :40:12. | :40:18. | |
measures that would to mitigate the impact of welfare reform in Northern | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
Ireland, and it is surprising, maybe not so surprising, that those very | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
areas were eventually to come about as mitigation measures. We divided | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
on the bill, last year, and the order when it came to the size in | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
2015. And there is another matter that I would welcome clarification | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
on from the Minister, regarding clause nine of the Finance Bill, | :40:43. | :40:48. | |
which is directly related to this statutory instrument, and I hope the | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
Minister will be able to clarify the situation for me. My honourable | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
friend, the Member for Foyle, raised the matter of new clothes name in | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
the Finance Bill last week, and it provides for the Treasury to ensure, | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
and open quotations, that no liability to income tax allowance on | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
welfare payments of a specified description". But it also makes | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
provision for the Treasury to make regulations to impose a charge to | :41:20. | :41:28. | |
income tax under part ten on payments of a specified description. | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
We have been at the forefront of securing mitigating powers for the | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
assembly to enable it to make supplementary payments, so could the | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
Minister, the honourable member for East Hampshire, confirmed today that | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
it does not give the Treasury the green light to interfere in | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
decisions by the executive and the assembly around supplementary | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
payments by dictating that these payments could be subject to a tax | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
claw-back? These top welfare payments will be made, as the | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
Minister knows, from the executive's on devolved budget and will not come | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
under annually managed expenditure, which is the usual route for payment | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
of benefits throughout Northern Ireland. Minister Ellison last week | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
confirmed that it would not, in response to my honourable friend, | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
the Member for foil, could the honourable member for East | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
Hampshire, the Minister at the dispatch box today, confirm... | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
Reconfirmed this position? As stated, we as a party have worked to | :42:38. | :42:52. | |
secure mitigation and we need supplementary payments for | :42:53. | :42:54. | |
mitigation measures and it is for this reason today that we will not | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
push the House to evade decision on this matter, which I am sure some | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
people will be pleased about! But notwithstanding that it is important | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
to remember that welfare reform, and particularly welfare reform and work | :43:11. | :43:17. | |
Bill, upon which this regulation is based, will introduce fairly | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
pernicious measures into Northern Ireland, and will impact on those, | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
in terms of low income, who are reliant on benefit. And I fear that | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
it could push people further into poverty. So it is incumbent, we | :43:34. | :43:41. | |
feel, on the government to ensure that people are protected, that | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
there is some form of vision. And I respect the fact that the mitigation | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
measures will ensure that, but that they look... That the government | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
looks at other measures to ensure that people can live in a decent | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
sort of life. And, in fact, early today, the honourable member for | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
East Belfast initiated a debate on social funeral payments. And we | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
participated in that debate because there is a feeling that those | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
general payments have been capped for several years and there has been | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
no corresponding increase when the cost of such measures have exceeded | :44:21. | :44:29. | |
beyond, shall we say, the income bounds of many people. So, in that | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
respect, we did not hear from the Minister responding this morning -- | :44:33. | :44:42. | |
we get -- about the government's measures, or Treasury measures, | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
about increasing such measures. So it is important, when we discuss | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
about welfare matters in relation to Northern Ireland, that the special | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
circumstances of many people, particularly in urban areas, who | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
find themselves unemployed, maybe through no cause of their own, who | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
are in receipt of benefits, do have that financial cushion and | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
protection in order to live a life without any detriment. Thank you, | :45:12. | :45:13. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. First of all, the fact that this | :45:14. | :45:23. | |
legislation is before the house today is an indication of the very | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
radical steps which had to be taken to rescue the Northern Ireland | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
assembly from financial and political collapse. And let's make | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
no doubt about it, that was the situation which faced the Northern | :45:41. | :45:47. | |
Ireland assembly because of the attitude which had been adopted by | :45:48. | :45:56. | |
those who decided that, despite all their protestations, that | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
legislation for matters which were devolved in Northern Ireland should | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
be dealt with by the Northern Ireland assembly, took a totally | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
irresponsible view, and blocked the ability for decisions to be made, | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
hence plunging the assembly into a financial crisis. It was less than a | :46:13. | :46:20. | |
year ago, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Northern Ireland assembly were | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
faced with a situation where the welfare reform legislation which had | :46:25. | :46:33. | |
gone through the House of Commons here and which was a matter which | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
had been devolved to Northern Ireland, but it was always assumed | :46:38. | :46:45. | |
that there would be a reflection of the legislation which was passed | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
here and the legislation which was passed in Northern Ireland, because | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
of course the bill was being paid for through the payments which came | :46:53. | :47:03. | |
to the Northern Ireland assembly. In other words, it was money which was | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
paid on demand, so if unemployment went up, then we did not have | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
defined it from the block grant. It was found simply from the Exchequer. | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
If there were a change in a number of claimants and the area and | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
happened to be, then the money was automatically made available. And of | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
course, and I understand that whilst there may have been opposition to | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
some of the measures which were undertaken in the welfare reform and | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
indeed my party voted against a number of them, but once it went to | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
the House of Commons, the stark choice for the people and for the | :47:42. | :47:43. | |
assembly in Northern Ireland was either you deviate and you pay for | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
the deviation or else you comply and ensure the payments continue to the | :47:51. | :47:59. | |
Northern Ireland expenditure block. And that was the stark reality. | :48:00. | :48:06. | |
There were some who, because of their sonority position and the SDLP | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
of course led the charge in this, because of their minority position | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
in the Northern Ireland assembly, they wanted to assure that the | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
budget was not put into jeopardy but at the same time they could wash | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
their hands and say the consequences of welfare reform are nothing to do | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
with us because we voted against them. It was all those other parties | :48:32. | :48:39. | |
who voted it through. And of course, that was the position that | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
unfortunately we had because of the kind of political structures which | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
are faced in Northern Ireland. The result is... I will give way. Thank | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
you. I am very grateful to my honourable friend. The honourable | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
lady suggested there were attempts to reach consensus between the | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
parties in Northern Ireland. Family member recall any proposal that was | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
able build consensus and also overcome the significant hurdle of | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
either deviating or following? This was the problem indeed. The member | :49:16. | :49:23. | |
perhaps did not have an opportunity to explain it. We were not delighted | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
that the powers were taken away from us, but because of the use of the | :49:28. | :49:35. | |
provisional concern by the SDLP and others, the ability to bring the | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
legislation forward was blocked and we then faced the situation where we | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
could not bring forward our own bespoke Northern Ireland legislation | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
because the situation had been blocked. I will give way in a | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
moment. Let us, because it is important. Rather than being | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
delighted that Westminster to response ability, our party, the | :50:01. | :50:07. | |
DUP, worked frantically to try and find ways of ensuring that the worst | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
aspect of welfare reform, the ones that we believe are most damaging | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
and could not because of some structural reasons be introduced in | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
Northern Ireland, that they were dealt with and were dealt with by | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
taking money from other priorities and then using that money to | :50:29. | :50:30. | |
alleviate some of the difficulties and that was blocked, stopped dead | :50:31. | :50:39. | |
in its tracks by the use of the addition of concern by the SDLP, so | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
rather than being delighted that Westminster had to take over the | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
responsibility, we worked our socks off to try to get a bespoke | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
arrangement for Northern Ireland which could be agreed by all of the | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
parties in Northern Ireland and would therefore have some kind of | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
democratic authority. And it was impossible to do that because of the | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
action of the SDLP, who protest and that they wanted the legislation | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
dealt with in Northern Ireland, but did their hardest to make sure it | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
could not be dealt with there and had to be dealt with the year. I | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
thank the MLA forgiving way, just to refresh his memory for fear he and | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
his colleagues may have forgotten that, my colleagues in the Northern | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
Ireland Assembly proposed and all party committee as far back as | :51:31. | :51:40. | |
February, as far back as March and April 2011, to address this | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
particular issue, to achieve all-party consensus, whereby we | :51:44. | :51:51. | |
could go forward as a United team to end the Treasury year in London and | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
to achieve the best possible deal for the people of Northern Ireland. | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I happen to be the finance minister in Northern | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
Ireland at the time and I can remember those discussions and there | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
was a whole list of demands, which was that you do not introduce any of | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
the welfare reform proposals and that we just go ahead as usual. Now, | :52:14. | :52:20. | |
the question of course was this. Who was going to pay for it? There was a | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
naive belief that somehow or other, if all of the parties in Northern | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
Ireland came to ministers here in London and brought along the great | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
and the good from Northern Ireland on the coat-tails and pleaded eight | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
special case that somehow or other we would be exempt from the | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
arrangements and the welfare changes that were being made in all other | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
parts of the United Kingdom. That was a cunning plan. And I am afraid | :52:54. | :53:03. | |
that even those who were sympathetic to the SDLP's point of view new that | :53:04. | :53:13. | |
there was nothing cunning about it. Indeed, Baldrick could not have | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
devised a more stupid plan, should he have done so. We tried to find | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
ways of changing this. The only suggestion was we are opposed to the | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
changes and therefore we don't want them for Northern Ireland. The more | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
realistic position and a position which is now reflected actually in | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
the legislation that we have today was let's look at what resources are | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
available. Let's look at where the most damaging aspects of the | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
legislation are going to be. And could we find the ability within our | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
own resources to try and mitigate against some of those? And that is | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
what has been done. Over the term of this assembly, the Northern Ireland | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
assembly will from its own resources and that means making some other | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
things in lesser priority, will seek to protect the most vulnerable by | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
mitigation measures, whether it is with the spare room subsidy, not | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
being enacted in Northern Ireland or people being compensated for it or | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
the cost of work allowance and people being compensated for that | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
and a range of other things, will find half ?1 billion over the | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
lifetime of the current assembly to alleviate some of the impacts of the | :54:37. | :54:42. | |
welfare reform changes, and of course those are reflected in some | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
of the legislation that is being put before the house today. In my view, | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
it is a great pity that there was not the majority to actually have | :54:55. | :55:04. | |
those changes made through legislation which was passed and | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
debated in the Northern Ireland assembly and the fact that under the | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
agreement, which was made around this time or just later, this time | :55:15. | :55:22. | |
last year at the Fresh Start talks, it was agreed that rather than go | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
through the process of trying to force is through the assembly when | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
the blocking mechanism we knew would be employed again by the SDLP and | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
some of their allies on this, that it would have to be done here in the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
House of Commons. And that's where we are today. But let me does | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
emphasise a number of points. First of all, there are changes and there | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
are welfare changes which we supported here, because we believe | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
that welfare did need reform. Secondly, we do believe that any | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
welfare system ought not to be designed in a way to dissuade people | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
from wanting to look for work. That is important. And therefore they | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
were some of the changes that we did support. Even when the debates were | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
here in the House of Commons will stop thirdly, there were things that | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
we did not support but once they got through the House of Commons and we | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
knew we could not afford them in Northern Ireland, we accepted that | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
they should be part of the legislation. Fourthly, there were | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
things that we believed we could change and we could find money to | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
change, and have this book legislation for Northern Ireland and | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
those were reflected in the proposal that we have before us. And the last | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
point is, of course, that this will all be devolved back to Northern | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
Ireland at the end of this year and I trust that we will have learned | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
from the debacle which brought the assembly into disrepute, brought | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
politics into disrepute, and in future we will learn that sometimes | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
there are hard choices to be made and at least what we should do is be | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
prepared to face up to those hard choices and find ways of dealing | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
with the consequences of legislation which come from here. I will give | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
way. But remember not honestly except Eddie Howe is that really the | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
holder Barkley was really about him and his party not wanting to trip | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
through the lobbies with Sinn Fein in a love in with Sinn Fein to | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
inflict poverty on the people of Northern Ireland? This is the | :57:31. | :57:37. | |
amazing thing. I don't know... I know there are all these attempts to | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
rewrite history. It was a DUP minister who brought the legislation | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
to the assembly and was prepared to walk through the lobbies and vote | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
for it, and because there was a petition of concern introduced by | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
the SDLP, which even a majority of members in the assembly had voted | :57:59. | :58:03. | |
for the legislation, it would still not have become law, and once that | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
addition of concern was triggered and the legislation was turned down, | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
we were in a position where we couldn't have any Welfare Reform | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
Bill. That is the truth of the matter. Not that we ran away. We | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
faced up to it. I can remember doing interview after interview. Even | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
faced flak from people who said you're going to hurt individuals | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
because a part of this legislation and we argued that at least we have | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
done something to mitigate against it. We have got the possible deal | :58:31. | :58:39. | |
and can I do say? -- can I just say? We did get changes and we did get | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
allowance is made by the DWP. I want to give credit to ministers in the | :58:45. | :58:50. | |
DWP. When we were negotiating with welfare reform, they accepted that | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
Northern Ireland could make changes, albeit that we had to accept the | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
financial consequences of those changes, but folks ability was | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
demonstrated by the Department for Work and Pensions. It was rejected | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
by those who wanted to simply be able to say we are purer than | :59:06. | :59:14. | |
everyone else on this issue and we have stood on our principles | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
regardless of the consequences of that. We have got the legislation we | :59:18. | :59:24. | |
have here today. I believe that those who are most vulnerable in | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
Northern Ireland have been safeguarded by the changes which | :59:29. | :59:30. | |
have been made by the resources which have been devoted by the | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
Northern Ireland assembly and that has been a painful choice, because | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
of course it means that there is less money to spend on some other | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
things, and I think that since the member had plenty of opportunity | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
during the debate, I have given three or four interventions already, | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
I know that she is struggling with the case that she has and with the | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
embarrassment of the way in which the SDLP have handled this issue, | :59:56. | :00:05. | |
but I say this. That we have now got the piece of legislation and today I | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
recommended it to the house. I believe it is the best deal we could | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
have got. Unfortunately, I believe it would have been far better had it | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
gone through the assembly but because of the assembly structures | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
and the ability for Menorah Narathiwat parties to obstruct | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
legislation through a position of concern, this is the only way by | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
which we can ensure that the assembly finances were protected and | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
indeed the political process in Northern Ireland was able to | :00:33. | :00:33. | |
continue. Do a few of the points that are | :00:34. | :00:48. | |
raised later, a very short speech. Firstly, on the detail of the | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
legislation, I wanted to make it clear that the Ulster Unionist | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
Party, for example, support the benefit cap, because it is important | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
that we keep people in work, they are better in work than totally | :01:05. | :01:06. | |
relying on benefits. We do support a raft of these issues are rendered. | :01:07. | :01:11. | |
We are still concerned that the split camp levels between London of | :01:12. | :01:19. | |
?23,000 and the rest of the UK of ?20,000 represents the most | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
significant nonconformity of the UK's Social Security system and will | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
need to be watched entirely closely, and obviously but as with the | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
reserved government here at the moment. So clearly that is ready | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
watching brief must be, but I am sure the assembly and executive will | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
also be making representation here as well. It had originally been | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
planned we introduce universal credit from 2017 and Northern | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
Ireland but this has now been moved because the development work on the | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
changes to universal credit ICT system has been delayed. The | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
deadline still remains June 2018. As such, the local department for, to | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
use in Northern Ireland has now found itself with the unenviable | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
task of trying to implement one of the biggest shake-ups in a | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
generation over less than a 12 month period. But anyway, I am sure they | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
will manage that with the help of others. We still do not support the | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
abolition of the work-related activity component for a new | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
claimants from April 20 17. However, that debate has been held and the | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
government have not taken it on board. So we must progress but what | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
we have. We must now move on to identify all the additional support | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
and help that claimants do to help them return to work. On the more | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
principal issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a huge frustration | :02:47. | :02:55. | |
that this is number one, that it had to come back here to be implemented, | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
but secondly that it is taken so long, at a huge cost to other | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
departments, departments like the health service and education | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
service, where there have been delays after delays. And a lot of it | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
has been just grandstanding. I fully accept the point that some people | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
just did not want to vote for this in the Northern Ireland Assembly and | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
executive. That has been talked about. Sinn Fein being the biggest | :03:20. | :03:25. | |
proponent of it, assisted by some extent by the SDLP. But this could | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
have been resolved many, many months, in fact years, ago. On the | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
delays have been at a huge cost to the people of Northern Ireland. The | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
ordinary people who needed that health care and education. I support | :03:39. | :03:45. | |
the continuance of this. There are some changes that I would have liked | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
to have seen that did not happen, that we are asked who I am | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
supporting the progression of it. But clearly we cannot get into this | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
mess that we have been in for the last couple of years. Otherwise, the | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
Northern Ireland Executive and assembly will be back to a very, | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
very difficult position and once again at stalemate. It is a pleasure | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
to follow the honourable gentleman. I wanted to support what my | :04:15. | :04:21. | |
honourable friend has said very personally just as to why we are | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
here today debating this particular statutory instrument. It is | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
important that it is emphasised that this is not a situation that we | :04:32. | :04:41. | |
wanted to see. It should be noted, that in Scotland, of course, with | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
the Scottish parliament, with the extensive powers that it has does | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
not have responsibility for welfare. This is an area where Northern | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
Ireland took responsibility, those who negotiated the agreement decided | :04:55. | :05:03. | |
it would be a good idea to devolve welfare to Northern Ireland, with a | :05:04. | :05:10. | |
massive cost that comes with that, but it comes to direct payments, not | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
out of the Northern Ireland block. So the understanding, the agreement, | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
was, and I am a former minister of social development, back when | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
devolution began in 1999, the understanding was parity. Because if | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
we deviate their Northern Ireland as to pay for that out of the block | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
grant. So areas like hospital spending, education, environment, | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
housing all is to suffer cuts in order to pay for any deviation. Now, | :05:36. | :05:44. | |
this comes to the crux of the arguments that took place in the | :05:45. | :05:46. | |
Northern Ireland Assembly in recent times. Were people in certain | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
parties, notably the SDLP, Sinn Fein and others, who wanted to say let's | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
deviate, let's do our own thing, we are not accepting these welfare | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
cuts, and their proposal to try to then get something for Northern | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
Ireland was let to set up a committee, go and knock on the door | :06:09. | :06:10. | |
of the Treasury and demand that Northern Ireland receive hundreds of | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
millions of pounds extra, which was never going to happen. The reality | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
is that had this measure not taken place, the fresh start negotiations | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
which took place primarily between the DUP and Sinn Fein, not had a | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
successful outcome then we would have had still direct rule by now | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
from this place. That is the reality of it. And what we would have added | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
Northern Ireland would have been welfare changes which were exactly | :06:41. | :06:42. | |
the same as have taken place in England and Wales. There would have | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
been none the mitigations. There would have been none of the | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
change... I will admit. There will be none of the changes which we | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
implemented and wanted to see implemented. So, the consequences of | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
the approach of the members of the SDLP and others who opposed a | :06:59. | :07:05. | |
sensible compromise was to have Phil, untrammelled welfare changes | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
of the sort that they thought, or say, that they oppose. I thank the | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
Member for getting way. I am wondering if you can enlighten us, | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
because I have not got to the bottom of it, why Sinn Fein has done such a | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
somersault on all of this? They total are posted for years. All of a | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
sudden, they seemed to come to their senses and accept the principle of | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
it. I am just wondering if he can shed any light. It is for Sinn Fein | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
to explain their own positions, not for me to speak for them. Especially | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
when they do not come to this House. They are often seen about the | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
corridors, certain members, here to collect their allowances, political | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
representation money, constituency allowances, that is all they did. | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
They do not take part in any other Parliamentary processes. So I will | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
leave it to them. But what I would say is this, that reality had to | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
dawn on people in Northern Ireland that we were facing into the | :08:02. | :08:06. | |
collapse of the political institutions. It is a biblically | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
local council in England or Wales or anywhere else. "Here's Your | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
financial settlement, here is what you have got to work with them." And | :08:13. | :08:18. | |
the leading party and unable to say, sorry, we are not going to be able | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
to accept that, we are going to set budgets were beyond that. We are | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
going to just ignore the financial realities. We're not going to make | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
any compromises which will safeguard the most vulnerable. The honourable | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
lady had plenty of time to put her arguments. The fact that she was not | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
able to bridge any convincing arguments to the House is her | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
responsibility. I will set out very clearly, the fact of the matter is | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
that financial responsibility, serious parties of government, | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
parties that are serious about running countries and being in | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
government, have to take difficult decisions within the financial | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
parameters that they are set. Especially a devolved government. | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
And if you just simply say we are not going to do that, keep we demand | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
you give us more, have actually it leads to collapse. Let's remember | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
that the people of Northern Ireland... Giveaway! The lady has | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
had a opportunity to speak and I am not giving way. The reality is that | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
the people of Northern Ireland have had their say. There was an election | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
in May in which they delivered their verdict. On the whole social | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
security Tobacco, in which they delivered their verdict in terms of | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
how the DUP and other parties outperformed, and the SDLP and | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
certain other parties had their worst result ever. In assembly | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
elections. And the DUP was returned with one of its best result ever, | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
back at the head of government in Northern Ireland. The people of | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
Northern Ireland so very clearly what was going on. They recognised | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
the parties, the politicians have to face up to their responsibilities. | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
If they are not serious about that, they will be rejected at the polls. | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
I also welcome the legislation and I wish the Minister in the Department | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
for Work and Pensions, I know he has moved from the Department of | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
Treasury, I wish him well in his work and also hope that we can come | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
to a part where we do not need this legislation coming to the floor of | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
the House of commons and we can get back to dealing with that in the | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
Northern Ireland Assembly. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
me conclude briefly by emphasising that this order fulfil the vital | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
commitment made as part of the fresh start agreement. Today, we have had | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
a robust debate on some of the historical aspect of how we got to | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
this point. In the interests of time, I think it best I do not | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
reflect further on that. Suffice to say, the two largest parties in the | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
assembly signed up to the fresh start agreement, of which this | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
legislation was a crucial part. Moreover, the assembly passed a | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
legislative consent motion supporting the legislation to be | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
done here in Westminster. I've read honourable member for Belfast North | :11:07. | :11:14. | |
said, Northern Ireland has long kept parity on social security as set out | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
in section 87 of the Northern Ireland act 1998, and restoring that | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
parity is a crucial part of keeping the executive's finance and stable. | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
What is in the legislation on the welfare supplementary payment will | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
be put forward in all its detail by the executive and the assembly. In | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
response to the specific question that the honourable lady from side | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
to most about taxation, supplementary payments to nontaxable | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
benefit will be nontaxable and supplementary payments to taxable | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
benefits will be taxable. So the tax treatment will be the same as any | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
current system. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, this order is a crucial | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
part of delivering the start agreement. It will help build a | :12:02. | :12:04. | |
politically and financially stable Northern Ireland and I commented to | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
the House. The question is as on the order | :12:10. | :12:10. | |
paper. As many as are of that opinion | :12:11. | :12:11. | |
say "aye". Motion on the pensions act. Minister | :12:12. | :12:27. | |
to move. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg is that the draft | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
pensions act 2014 consequential amendments order 2016, which was | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
laid before the size on the 4th of July, be approved. This order | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
implements a small number of further minor consequential amendments in | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
connection with the introduction of the new State Pension. It does two | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
things. Firstly, it ensures that existing administrative arrangements | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
which are designed to facilitate the annual operating exercise will | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
continue to operate as they do now. And secondly giving appeal rights to | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
decisions about national insurance credits that count for new State | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
Pension purposes. So, if I deal with the amendments to do with up-rating | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
first, Madam Deputy Speaker. Article two amends the Social Security | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
Administration act 1992. The deals with alterations in the payable | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
amount of certain income related benefits due to up-rating. That | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
would be income support, income -based jobseeker's allowance, income | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
related deployment and support allowance, universal credit and | :13:38. | :13:44. | |
pension credit. These provisions allow an existing award of these | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
benefits to be altered automatically to take account of the upgrading of | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
another benefit in payment to the claimant or their partner or the | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
need for a further decision by a decision maker. They can also enable | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
the decision maker to take account of the new rates from the up-rating | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
date when he or she is determining a new award that begins before the | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
up-rating order is come into force, rather than having to revisit the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
award to apply the new rates at a later date. Article two retains | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
long-standing administrative easements which support the annual | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
operating exercise. So it is simply a case, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
delivering business as usual in a case where a person or their | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
partner's benefiting covers the new State Pension. These amendments will | :14:29. | :14:35. | |
therefore apply for the first time in April 2017, which, of course, is | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
the first operating exercise for the new State Pension. Then the | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
amendments to do with appeal rights for national insurance credits. | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
Turning to article three, this amends schedule three to the | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
security act 1998, which lists decisions which carry the right to | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
appeal. The schedule already includes decisions on credits | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
awarded under the all 1975 credit regulations, and also needs to | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
include those provided for under part eight of the new State Pension | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
regulations 2015. The policy intention is that decisions made in | :15:15. | :15:16. | |
relation to these credits should have the right to appeal. This | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
should have been an active with effect from the 6th of April 2016. | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
And I regret to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it was overlooked and, | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
as the law stands, they do not. This amendment makes good the mission and | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
will come into force on the day after the order is made. Of course, | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
this does mean that there is a period when decisions will be made, | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
which it was intended should carry the right of appeal but which cannot | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
a lot be appealed. These decisions are made by HMRC officials on the | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
half of State for work and work and pensions and therefore my officials | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
have been working very closely with HMRC to find a solution. That | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
solution, Madam Deputy Speaker, involves a workaround. Once the | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
order has come into force, any decisions that are made under the | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
provisions in part eight of the State Pension regulation 2015 will | :16:10. | :16:10. | |
be appealable. Birdie will be revisited in any | :16:11. | :16:27. | |
decisions made prior. There will be no change in outcome from the | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
original decision, hadn't been a peelable, and a fresh decision that | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
is successfully appealed. A successful appellant will have | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
credits awarded to them. Importantly, I can reassure the | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
house that today no one has in practice been affected. This may | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
seem unlikely at first glance, but there are a number of reasons for | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
this. First, the omission can only affect certain decisions made since | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
the 6th of April this year. Secondly, it only affects credit | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
which a person has to apply for. The practical impact of this gap in the | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
law relates only to decisions about credit, where a person has applied | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
for since the 6th of April 2000 16. These include new credits which | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
cover past periods in which a person was accompanying their Armed Forces | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
spouse or civil partner on an overseas posting. Ordinarily, | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
credits awarded for the tax year 2016 and 2017 will be taken into | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
account only in the assessment of new state pension awards, which will | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
be made after the six of April 2000 and 17. However, these new credits | :17:31. | :17:32. | |
could affect state pension awards made since the 6th of April 2000 16. | :17:33. | :17:39. | |
A further mitigation is that before a person can lodge an appeal, they | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
have to ask for the decision to be reconsidered by a decision maker. | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
That is the mandatory reconsideration. This enables the | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
decision to be reconsidered and the facts taken into account in making | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
it. Upon reflection, it is considered that the decision should | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
be change, it can be changed without the claimant having to go through an | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
appeal process. HRMC data from the last tax year tells us that there | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
are fewer than ten cases where a decision under those 1975 | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
regulations was disputed and ended progressing to an appeal. And | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
finally, we know that out of 324 applications for the new Armed | :18:26. | :18:27. | |
Forces partner credits which have been refused, that is up to the 5th | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
of September, 201 of these refusals were because of the tax year being | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
applied for was already a qualifying year for other reasons, so the | :18:37. | :18:39. | |
applicant wouldn't need the credit in order to establish their new | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
state pension entitlement. It is an unfortunate situation, but I do hope | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
I have reassured the house that even indicate where it did materialise, | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
we have measures in place to ensure that whilst justice will be delayed, | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
it may be denied. We are confident that no individual be disadvantaged | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
by the oversight. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sure you will be | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
delighted that I can confirm that this is compatible with the European | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
Convention of Human Rights and I commend the order to the house. The | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
question is as on the order paper. I thank the Minister very warmly for | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
the introduction of the order and if I could also take the opportunity to | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
welcome him to his place? I know it is different and new and it is nice | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
to see him there. And while I do recognise that this is principally | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
tidying up existing legislation, and as such I will not be opposed in the | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
order, I would like to make some comments in relation to both article | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
two and three. Alongside the decision not to conduct an impact | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
assessment. So relation to article two of the order, this enables the | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
income related benefits awarded to recipients to be adjusted to account | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
for additional income being received through an upgrading of the new | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
state pension without requiring the Secretary of State oversight, as the | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
gentleman has explained. This arrangement means that the old state | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
pension is now carried forward into the new one, which is relatively | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
uncontroversial. However, I would like to push the Minister on the | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
specific changes in relation to entitlements for couples. The | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
explanatory memorandum states that currently where one member of a | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
couple has reached a qualifying age for pension credit, while the other | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
has not, the couple can choose to claim either pension credit or the | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
relevant working age benefit. The explanatory memorandum points out | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
that most Jews to go for pension credit as should they choose to | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
access the working age benefit, they will be subject to conditions which | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
do not apply to pension credit. From 2018, it is planned to remove the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
option to claim pension credit, replacing it with universal credit | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
for the next stage cobbles and making new claims. So can I what the | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
proposed transitional arrangements are to cover these changes? Would | :21:10. | :21:15. | |
someone covered by transitional protections who loses their | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
entitlement to pension credit for a short period then be expected to | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
roll into universal credit? How does the Government planted Unigate these | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
changes, given the importance of the differences in the amount awarded of | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
pension credit when comparing with other working age entitlements as | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
well as the strict conditions on universal credit I am sure that the | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
Minister will agree with me on the importance of ensuring that all | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
those affected are well informed. Turning to Article three, this | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
provides for a right of appeal against a decision as to whether a | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
person is to be credited with earnings or contributions for the | :21:59. | :22:01. | |
purposes of entitlement to the state pension. In relation to the old | :22:02. | :22:04. | |
state pension for people who reached state pension age before the 6th of | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
April 2016, there was already a right to appeal decisions as to | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
whether the individual was eligible for a credits and this order, as the | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
Minister has explained, this would apply to the new state pension. The | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
expanded to memorandum states that this should have been taking place | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
since 2016 was unfortunately overlooked and yes this omission is | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
disappointing, not least for those that have been affected and while | :22:35. | :22:39. | |
the Minister has taken some pains to explain that this hasn't affected | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
anybody and there are measures in place to ensure that no one will | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
lose out in relation to that, I would be grateful if you could write | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
to me and clarify how many people have been denied a claim since the | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
6th of April and who this might have affected, so women are for example | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
or people from low incomes. And again, if you could confirm in | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
writing to me with all those that have made applications for credits | :23:10. | :23:16. | |
and were declined how this will be being resolved, I would be very | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
grateful. I would also like to briefly touch on the related issue | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
of take-up of national insurance credits. These cover circumstances | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
in which people are not working and in some cases require an application | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
to be made. In 2013, the Government acknowledged there was a low level | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
of awareness and understanding of some national insurance credits such | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
as carer's credit. It is said that the low take-up rates suggest that | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
these credits work on and I quote, not achieving their stated aim of | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
protecting the state pension position that individuals who take | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
time out of paid employment due to caring responsibilities, and of | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
course in many cases these are women. As the Minister will know, | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
the Government undertook to review this system and developed a customer | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
focused medication strategy and worked with outside agencies to | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
encourage take-up. It said state pension statements, which | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
individuals have to request would be the vehicle providing individuals | :24:18. | :24:19. | |
with personalised information about their entitlement. In the debate on | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
this order in the other place last week, the Minister of State for work | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
reform said there were around 400,000 eligible people for carer's | :24:28. | :24:35. | |
credit and in August, there are only 10,900 recipients, so according to | :24:36. | :24:42. | |
my maps, it is about one in 40. And this is the very low proportion. | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
Does the Government have plans to review its approach and look again | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
at some of the recommendations by the work and pensions Select | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
Committee report on allegations of the new state pension? Finally, I | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
would like to push the Minister on the decision not to undertake an | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
impact assessment when preparing the order. The Government argued that | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
this order has no impact upon several organisations or the private | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
sector. Is this not a really narrow interpretation of when you apply in | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
impact assessment? I would be very concerned if this was the start of a | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
precedent. And again, I would ask the Minister to look into that. I | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
would like the Minister to reassure this side of the house that this is | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
not setting a dangerous precedent. Again, we do know that impact | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
assessment from this Government have tended to be rather inadequate. | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
Speaker, and let me welcome the Minister to his place. It is a | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
pleasure to see him here and let me say again that those of us on our | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
bench as you look forward to working with him to the benefit of | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
pensioners. We on these benches welcome these measures in so far as | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
this enables the award of certain income related benefits to be | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
adjusted automatically when the new state pension is operated. Can I ask | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
the Minister in bringing forward this measure where the consideration | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
was given to the results of the EU referendum and the uncertainty that | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
arises for the 400,000 UK pensioners living in EU countries? The house | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
will be aware that long-standing rules enable the coordination of | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
Social Security entitlements for people living within the EU. One | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
result is that the UK state pension has risen in line. Elsewhere, the UK | :26:39. | :26:50. | |
state pension is only operated if there is a reciprocal Social | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
Security agreement requiring this. The Government could have taken the | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
opportunity to deal with these measures to address the concerns of | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
the 400,000 UK pensioners living in the EU. Can I ask the Minister why | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
has this not been done? Does the Minister agree with me that those UK | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
citizens who are residing in EU countries, who are entitled to a UK | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
pension and annual increments as would be the case if they were | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
residing in the UK, should have those rights protected with the | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
Brexit vote? Can the Minister give an assurance today that this will | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
happen? The Minister, when doing a Parliamentary answer on the issue on | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
the 8th of July said, it will be for the next Prime Minister to determine | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
along with the cabinet exactly the right approach to take in | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
negotiating these provisions going forward. By the Government's guiding | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
principle will be in ensuring the best possible outcome for the | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
British people. Madam Deputy Speaker, given that the Prime | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
Minister has had time to settle in, there has been ample opportunity to | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
address this question. Can we have an answer today and remove this | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
uncertainty for UK pensioners? Madam Deputy Speaker, prior to our entry | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
into the UK, the UK had bilateral arrangements with a number of | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
European countries. What will be the situation, where this was previously | :28:11. | :28:13. | |
the case? Do they remain in force and can he reassure pensioners in | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
those countries? Of course, what the measures in front of us today also | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
failed to address the issue of the half a million UK pensioners living | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
in territories where there is no annual operating. Why is the | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Government not bringing forward today plans to restore annual | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
operating to all British pensioners, based on entitlement, regardless of | :28:40. | :28:46. | |
domicile? Madam Debaty Speaker, it is morally unjust and truly unfair | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
for the Government to strip the pensioners of their rights to equal | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
state pension payments. There are a host of reasons why a pensioner may | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
choose to move abroad in later life. Such as wanting to because of the | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
family or friends. Or to enjoy a different lifestyle. It is simply | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
wrong to punish them for making this choice. Pensioners who have paid the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
required national insurance conditions during their working | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
lives, in expectation of a decent basic pension in retirement, will | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
find themselves living on incomes that fall in real terms year on | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
year. Payments of national insurance contributions in order to qualify | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
for a state pension is mandatory. All recipients of the British state | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
pensions have made these contributions, and the historically | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
level of the pension has varied according to the level of contrition | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
is made, it is clearly unfair to differentiate payments levels by any | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
other criteria. Pensioners will now face ending their days in poverty | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
because they choose to live in the wrong country. In most cases, | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
without any knowledge of the invocations of the choice for their | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
pension. Others are forced back into the UK, away from the family they | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
love, just to secure an income they can retire on. All should receive | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
their full and operated pension according to this contribution, | :30:14. | :30:15. | |
regardless of where they choose to reside. The form would bring the UK | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
in line with international norms, as most other developed countries do | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
now pay their state pension equivalent in this way. We are the | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
only all EEC the member who does not do so. Most pensioners have no idea | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
that their pension would be frozen when they chose to emigrate. The | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
frozen pension policy also acts as a disincentive to immigration, as the | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
integration of people currently living in the UK who would like to | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
emigrate and who are aware of the frozen pension policy know that they | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
would not be able to afford to live on a state pension at its current | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
level in the older years, by which time inflation will have decreased | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
its value and decide not to move accordingly. | :31:01. | :31:08. | |
There is a treatment of British pensioners and no consensus over how | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
they are treated overseas. If you live in the US Virgin Islands, you | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
get a feel UK State Pension, if you live in the British Virgin Islands, | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
you do not. Overseas pensioners are entitled to fairness. The State | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
Pension is, after all, a right, not a privilege. It is not a benefit, it | :31:28. | :31:39. | |
is an entitlement to a pension based on paying National Insurance | :31:40. | :31:41. | |
contributions. Madam Deputy Speaker, given the measures before us today, | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
our provisions which support the annual exercise to upgrade payments, | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
then I asked the Minister to clarify the government's positions on the | :31:51. | :31:53. | |
triple lock? There have been suggestions that it may not survive. | :31:54. | :31:59. | |
We on these benches to the support the continuation of the triple lock. | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
It is the right thing to do to protect the interests of pensioners. | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
While the Minister join me in the championing the triple lock and | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
commit the government to continuing with that? Whilst we talk about | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
pensioners' rates, equity and fairness, perhaps the Minister would | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
like to tell us why, when we are discussing the State Pension, there | :32:22. | :32:24. | |
is no mention of the Waspy woman and no solution to the injustice of many | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
faith in this secondary legislation package? It is not right that women | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
born after 1953 are having to wait so much longer than those born in | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
previous years to collect their state pension. The government is | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
going to have to bring forward mitigation to deal with these | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
injustices and needs to do so quickly. Wired and omissions in this | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
package to deal with this issue? Thank you very much. -- why are | :32:50. | :32:58. | |
there no measures in this package? I am very grateful for the two | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
honourable members for their contributions to this debate on this | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
instrument today, but also for their kind words, which they appreciate. I | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
am sure this'll be the first of many occasions which we take part such | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
debates. If I may, very briefly, deal with the points the honourable | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
gentleman from Ross, Skye and Lochaber made. I could take a long | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
time to do it but affected just the very briefly that he is very aware, | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
he has spoken many times on the frozen pensions issue, which I am | :33:28. | :33:31. | |
aware of. But the policy on this issue is unchanged. It has been in | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
place for almost 70 years, with all sorts of governments, and there is | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
no plans to change it. The government complies with that legal | :33:41. | :33:42. | |
obligations where there is reciprocal agreements with different | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
countries, but there is no plans whatsoever, and I would not like to | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
mislead him by saying that there are, there are no plans to change | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
that. As far as the triple lock is concerned, he knows that the | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
government, I would very happily send them a copy of the Conservative | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
party manifesto if he is interested, I am sure it is still available from | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
all good book shops! In fact, probably some bad book shops as | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
well. But the government is committed to retaining a triple lock | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
throughout this parliament and has said it several times in the past. I | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
am happy to repeat it for him. That is not to ignore the honourable | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
lady, but I will now return to the statutory instrument which she very | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
kindly commented on. The transitional arrangements which she | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
mentioned, to do for example with ending his choice for mixed age | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
couples, really, the choice is ending because it is not | :34:44. | :35:18. | |
couples, really, the choice is have been denied the right of appeal | :35:19. | :35:20. | |
to date as result of this mission. I will check and if necessary respond | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
to her in writing, but, to my knowledge, we do not all that | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
information because administrative data is not originally collected by | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
HMRC on volumes of all clinically administered credit, but I am happy | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
to get back to her on that particular point. Very briefly, | :35:39. | :35:46. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, because I have had many honourable and Right | :35:47. | :35:48. | |
Honourable members have had a lot of patience honours, but she asked, I | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
would just like to tell her that the credit affected include applications | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
in this case predominantly for spices and civil partners of members | :35:58. | :36:02. | |
of the Armed Forces, as she said, but I must also say in respect of | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
partners and recipients of child benefit, where entitlement to the | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
credit is transferred to the applicant, for people providing care | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
for a child under the age of 12, grandparents' credit, for being a | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
foster parent and four persons approaching pensionable age. Welcome | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, very briefly, I have explained as the beginning | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
was the order covers, these consequential amendments. We have | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
been through them both in really quite some detail. And I would like | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
to say we have acknowledged the one that it was a gap in the law. The | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
first time I have ever dealt with a gap in the law but there was a clear | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
gap in the law and at least we have good mechanisms in place to make | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
sure that nobody is disadvantaged and, fortunately, we have not yet | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
needed to employ these because nobody has sought to appeal. I hope | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
have provided the qualification the honourable member is required. I am | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
very happy to speak to them separately on the occasion, should | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
you require further clarification. I commend those order to the House. | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
The question is as on the order paper. | :37:16. | :37:16. | |
As many as are of that opinion say "aye". | :37:17. | :37:18. | |
Motion number four on local government. I remember those that | :37:19. | :37:34. | |
the Speaker has certified that this relates specifically to England at | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
were devolved confidence, it is subject to double majority. All | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
members of the House are able to vote in the division. Understanding | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
order 83 Q, the motion will be agreed only if, of those voting, | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
both the majority of all members and members representing constituencies | :37:53. | :37:54. | |
in England vote in support of the motion. At the end, the tellers will | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
report the results first for all members and secondly for those | :38:00. | :38:02. | |
representing constituencies in England. Minister to move formally. | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
The question as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
say "aye". As many as are of that opinion | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
say "aye". Tellers for the ayes mac. Sorry | :38:11. | :39:52. | |
about that. Thank you. 290, ayes. Three noes. 271 | :39:53. | :52:06. | |
representing England and three noes. It is a double majority sold 290 | :52:07. | :52:14. | |
four aye, no 43. 271 from England. We now come to the opposition day in | :52:15. | :52:46. | |
the name of the Leader of the Opposition. Mr J Deputy Speaker, I | :52:47. | :52:56. | |
am glad to open this debate on the NHS sustainability and | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
transformation plans. As the whole house knows, the NHS has a special | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
place in the affections of our constituents. No other public | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
service engages with ours all when we are at our most vulnerable. | :53:10. | :53:16. | |
Birth, death, and illness. And the public, and obviously staff, are | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
increasingly aware that the NHS is under severe financial pressure. And | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
that I will return to. So it is in this context, the context of | :53:28. | :53:37. | |
financial pressure and concern about the availability of services, that | :53:38. | :53:39. | |
the sustainability and transformation plans are arousing | :53:40. | :53:46. | |
concern. They sound like something anodyne and managerial, and there is | :53:47. | :53:53. | |
undoubtedly a case for bringing health and social care stakeholders | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
together to improve planning and coordination. But the concern is | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
that in the outing the sustainability and transformation | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
plans will be used to force cuts," but is, and actually make it harder | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
for patients to access face to face consultants and above all that they | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
opened the door to more privatisation. And I have to say | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
that it tells the public how little the Secretary of State cares about | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
their concerns that he is not in the chamber to either listen or respond | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
to this debate. We know that recently he has missed all seven | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
meetings of the NHS board, so the public is entitled to say, how much | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
does he care about their very real concerns? I thank forgiving way. She | :54:47. | :54:53. | |
mentioned the word cuts just now, but actually this Government is | :54:54. | :54:55. | |
putting more money into the National Health Service, an extra ?10 billion | :54:56. | :55:02. | |
a year and if the party opposite had no intention of making that sort of | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
financial commitment to the NHS, as we saw in its failure to do so | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
before the last election. The NHS was never a better funded than under | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
the last Labour Government. And the public notice. This is why they | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
trust us the NHS. I need to make progress. Order, order. As the | :55:26. | :55:36. | |
honourable lady has just given weight, we do not need the cheering | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
to go with it. I just want to check with my honourable friend, the last | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
time I read Simon Stephens said that the SDP was designed to make up the | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
?22 billion shortfall that the Government isn't prepared to | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
Britain. Is that not the case? It is indeed the case that the | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
sustainability and transformation plans, rather than just being an | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
anodyne managerial exercise are indeed designed to make up the | :56:07. | :56:18. | |
dissing ?22 billion. Alarming aspects of the sustainability plan | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
has been their secrecy. England has been divided into 44 regional | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
footprints and it is worth noting, they are called footprints to | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
distract from the fact they are ad hoc regional structures, the exact | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
same regional structures that the Tory health bill was supposed to | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
sweep away. But because they are ad hoc and because they are | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
non-statutory, they are also wholly unaccountable and in the world of | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
the S T P, the public has no right to know. I am grateful to my | :56:52. | :57:00. | |
honourable friend forgiving way. We have a leak of the one firm as | :57:01. | :57:03. | |
desired and gesture, which says that there is an appetite for hospital | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
reconfiguration as the existing setup is currently unaffordable. | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
Given that it also says that there is almost a ?1 billion to be | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
expected by 2021 and that the public have not yet been consulted, does | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
she agree with me that when the public are consulted, there is going | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
to be an absolute outcry? I believe this is a reason for the secrecy | :57:26. | :57:32. | |
does far. The Government knows if the public understood what SDP | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
meant, there would be an outcry. So in fact, initially... I am very | :57:37. | :57:42. | |
grateful to the honourable lady for giving way. Would she agree with me | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
that unless the local community are fully engaged in the process of | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
considering how the health and care system needs to change in their | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
area, then it is destined to failure? The process simply will not | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
work. I am grateful. For nearly the whole time I have been in | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
Parliament, there have been attempts to reconfigure hospitals, close A, | :58:07. | :58:15. | |
make these changes. In London, what we have found is that where the | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
local community doesn't take ownership of these plans, it is | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
impossible to take them forward, and the secrecy actually runs counter to | :58:25. | :58:33. | |
making the real reorganisations that we may have to make. So initially, | :58:34. | :58:46. | |
the STP where not publishing their plans. No minutes of the board | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
meetings existed. We are bound to ask, if these plans are really in | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
the interests of patients and the public, White has everyone been so | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
anxious that patients and the public know as little as possible? In some | :59:02. | :59:10. | |
cases, even local GPs have not been fully involved in decision-making. | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
Honourable members may not take it seriously, but I assured them that | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
their constituents will. GP leaders... Order, order. Can I just | :59:21. | :59:28. | |
suggest, it is up to the Honourable Lady whether she wishes to give way | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
or not. Shouting and screaming will not help but the debate because | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
members also want a year on both sides, so please, I am a charming | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
that when the Honourable Lady wants to give way, she will do. Screaming | :59:39. | :59:40. | |
will not help. GP leaders have said that plans to | :59:41. | :59:57. | |
transform general practice and transform what other secondary | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
killer into general practice are already vast and lead a only at this | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
late stage have they been shared with GB providing representatives. | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
The Freedom of Information requests are also uncovered the substantial | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
goal of the private sector in formulating these plans. GE | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
Fenimore, for example, is advising across the South and I have no doubt | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
the work is underway for them to get larger slices of the action of the | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
future. In the name of transparency, does she agree that all these | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
motions should be publishing -- boards should be publishing who is | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
on them and declare their interests? I entirely agree. All of these FTPs | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
should be publishing who is on them, what their financial interests are | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
and also how far advanced they are in the planning. However, thanks to | :00:45. | :00:54. | |
the work of organisations like Open Democracy, 38 Degrees and also, | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
frankly, leaks, the picture of what these FTPs will mean is becoming | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
clearer. We know from the information we have been able to | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
glean that the reality of a sustainability and transformation | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
plans is in fact quite concerning. For instance, in the Black Country | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
there are plans for major changes to front line services in the Midlands | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
Metropolitan Hospital, including the closure of the hospital's A The | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
plans also propose to close one of the two Leicester General Hospital | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
's as part of a planned merger, and we know that by 2021 the Health and | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
Social Care Act system in the Black Country is projected to be 476.6 | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
million short of the funds it needs to balance its books. And members | :01:46. | :01:51. | |
opposite me shout now, but they are going to need an answer for their | :01:52. | :01:57. | |
constituents when the reality of some of these proposed closures | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
becomes apparent. In Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland there are | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
apparently plans to reduce the number of hospitals in the area from | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
three to two and by 2021 the Health and Social Care Act system in the | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
area will be 700 million short of the money it needs to balance its | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
books. And in Southwark and North East Essex the uprating plan refers | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
to the reconfiguration of acute services that are local hospital, | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Colchester Hospital University trust, and the whole house knows | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
that historically reconfiguration in the NHS has meant cuts, and there | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
are also plans to close GP practices. While the honourable lady | :02:41. | :02:49. | |
give way?! And the context to these plans, of which I have given an | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
idea, is the current NHS financial crisis. Most recently we have heard | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
from NHS providers about this financial crisis and they represent | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
the NHS acute, ambulance community and mental health services, and what | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
NHS providers say is that despite the best efforts of hard-working | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
staff, including, I might say, junior doctors, hospital Accident | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
and Emergency performance is the worst it has ever been. Waiting | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
lists for operations, 3.9 million, I've high as they have been since | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
December 2007 and we ended the last financial year with trusts reported | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
the largest deficit in the history of the NHS. 2.45 billion. I have to | :03:36. | :03:45. | |
make a little progress. So, many STPs will be facing a large | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
financial deficit. And I say to members opposite who do not seem to | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
take this debate seriously, when... SHOUTING | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
When their constituents come to them asking about these cuts and | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
closures, they will have to take it seriously then. So, many STPs will | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
be faced with a large financial deficit, which is subject to control | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
total staters cuts. In the case of north-west London, which does not | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
have the largest projected deficit by any means, spending on acute care | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
is predicted to fall in nominal terms over a six-year period, | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
despite a population which is both increasing and ageing and cost | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
pressures such as the sharply rising cost of drugs. STPs have made an | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
assessment of their own deficits by 2021, researchers have just caused | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
that approximately 29 of those 44 STPs have projected substantial | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
deficits. I have to make some progress. Point of order. It is a | :04:58. | :05:07. | |
requirement of the member of the size to know the difference between | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
a debate and a monologue. Then it is for me to make that decision. I am | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
quite happy for the shadow of Secretary of State to decide whether | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
she wishes to give way or not. It is the opposition debate and she is | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
leading that debate. Let's not have any more points of order because I | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
am very worried about the numbers of last and I want to try to get | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
everybody in. Diane Abbott. So, when the STPs talk about efficiency, they | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
actually meant cuts. And increasingly at the heart of these | :05:38. | :05:44. | |
are asset sales of land, buildings to cover deficits. No wonder the | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
leader of Hammersmith and Fulham Council has said that his local STP, | :05:50. | :05:57. | |
this is about closing hospitals and getting capital receipts. He goes | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
on, it is a cynical rehab of earlier plans. It is about the breaking up | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
and the selling off of the NHS. And the King 's fund has said, I have to | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
make progress. The King 's fund has said there are some concerns that | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
NHS leaders have focused their efforts on plans for are considering | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
hospital services, despite the evidence that major acute | :06:23. | :06:24. | |
reconfigurations actually rarely save money and sometimes failed to | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
improve the quality of care. The BMA has said the same thing. And the | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
King's fund has said the cuts under the FTPs are eye-watering, and the | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
Health Select Committee, I am anxious to complete my remarks so | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
you can get a chance intervene to stop and the Health Select | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
Committee's recent reports about the impact of the 2015 spending Review | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
stated at present the sustainability transformation fund is being used | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
widely to suspend, in the form of logging provider deficits, rather | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
than transforming the system at scale and pace. As the financial... | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
If the financial situation of trust is not resolved, or worse | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
deteriorates further, it is likely that the overwhelming majority of | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
the FTP -- the STP fund will be continued to be used to great | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
short-term problems, rather than support long-term solutions. Will | :07:27. | :07:36. | |
she give way? The other... The other aspect of the STPs, in order to cut | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
expenditure, is a combination of factors, including the use of new | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
technology, apps, scared, patients taking more responsibility for their | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
own health, new pathways for elderly care, increased reliance on | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
volunteers and the downgrading of treatment by skills, responsibility | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
and pay bands. It seems to be that these proposals, whilst having fun | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
at merit in themselves, is delusional to imagine that they will | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
deal with the financial black hole and the NHS. There is no evidence | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
that in the patient population as a whole increased use of apps, skate | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
and telemedicine can produce the efficiency is required whilst | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
expecting units, Department and hospitals are being closed. And I | :08:27. | :08:32. | |
would remind the House, many of them on a weekly basis speak to their | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
constituents by surgery, the truth is that when you are speaking to | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
people face-to-face, it is often towards the end of a conversation | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
that they come out with what really concerns them. And my concern about | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
the increased use of video calls is that many patients will not get that | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
familiarity and comfortable nice to actually say at the end of the | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
session what it is they are concerned about. Will she give way? | :08:58. | :09:05. | |
Clearly, the plans took a great deal into preventative medicine. This | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
would indeed have the effect of lowering demand for acute NHS care, | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
but would also require a very substantial investment in public | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
health programmes and this Government is just not funded. The | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
elderly, the poor, patients for whom English is not their first language, | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
are the least likely to use these apps and this telemedicine and | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
Skype. -- and video calls. It is inappropriate to expect elderly | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
patients, the biggest users of acute care, to use online video calls for | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
any sensitive matter. And new pathways for the elderly as an idea | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
is sufficiently vague to raise alarm bells, given the projected rise in | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
demand for geriatric services and the continuing cuts in social care | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
funding. SHOUTING | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
I am very grateful to my honourable friend. | :10:01. | :10:02. | |
She is making a very important point, because she has already | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
touched on the financial problems in the NHS, but aligned doubles at the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
financial problems in adult social care. We are not going to get that | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
truly integrated Health and Social Care Act that we all desire with | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
these STPs been swept under the doors without people knowing | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
precisely what it means to public services in their areas. My | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
honourable friend makes a very important point. The danger is that | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
in a blizzard of apps and Skype, patients will find it harder to | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
access one-to-one care, particularly the elderly, and those that can | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
afford it will find themselves forced into the private sector. And | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
now, a word about the increasing private sector involvement in the | :10:49. | :10:56. | |
NHS. It is the NHS England director of STPs, Michael McDonald, who has | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
said they the private sector and third sector organisations an | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
enormous amount of opportunity. We know that Price Waterhouse Coopers | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
has been very heavily involved in the formulation of a large number of | :11:12. | :11:19. | |
these plans and, as was referenced earlier, other companies have been | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
heavily involved in the formulation of plant on the South West and | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
possibly wait. The strong suspicion is that the combination of cuts, | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
reorganisation of service on a geographical basis and the growth of | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
hospital chains will all facilitate the greater privatisation of the | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
NHS. SHOUTING | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
In drawing to a close... GROANING | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
It is absolutely right that Health and Social Care Act stakeholders | :11:53. | :11:54. | |
should come together to plan for the future. It is absolutely wrong that | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
social transformation plans should be hatched in secret and | :12:00. | :12:08. | |
increasingly clear that social transformation plans may be a | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
stalking horse for more privatisation. Members opposite may | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
not take this issue seriously... SHOUTING | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
Members opposite may not take this issue seriously, but, and members | :12:25. | :12:32. | |
opposite response may be too shot, but I stress to this has the | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
consequences of these STPs will be very material for all our | :12:38. | :12:45. | |
constituents. And very material also for those that work in the NHS. So, | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
I take this issue seriously. This is why we have called this debate, and | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
I await with interest what ministers have to say. The question is as of | :12:58. | :13:10. | |
the order paper. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
pleasure to be here today. I would like to start by welcoming the | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
honourable lady to her post. I think this is the first time she has | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
spoken from the dispatched box in opening a debate in her present | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
position and I am pleased also to be doing so for the first time for our | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
site. I think she was appointed to her post about three weeks before | :13:32. | :13:37. | |
me, so we are both on a steep learning curve, I think it would be | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
courteously. I am very pleased that she has chosen as a object for today | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
was my debate to discuss the sustainability and transformation | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
plans, because it gives me the opportunity to correct some of the | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
misconceptions that she has just revealed, and, more importantly, to | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
inform the whole house of the status of these plans within the NHS. And I | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
would like to start by reminding the House of the origins of these plans. | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
The NHS's on plans for the future, set out in the five-year forward | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
view, and endorsed by this Government, but not, as it happens, | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
endorsed by the party opposite, recognised three great challenges | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
facing the NHS. Health and well-being, care and quality and | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
finance and efficiency. Will he give way? I am most grateful to him for | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
giving way. Can I add my congratulations in saying how | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
delighted I am to see him at the dispatch box, doing such a crucial | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
pre-. While he is on his steep learning curve, and the Hereford | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
Hospital and understand the difficulties that rural patients | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
face and they would he can do to help us? I am delighted to be able | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
to accept that invitation on behalf of my neighbour and friend. Not | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
least because many of my constituents looked to Hereford | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Hospital for their acute care, and it is one of the hospital trusts in | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
special measures, which is my specific responsibility, for I would | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
forward to seeing him there, perhaps even during the coming recess. I | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
will. When I am very grateful and wish the Minister all the best for | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
his new role. With the share my concern at the fact that around the | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
country there is evidence that in many areas mental health is | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
peripheral to this STP process? And will he ensure that every STP plan | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
will not be accepted unless mental health is absolutely central to what | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
they are doing? I am grateful for that intervention, | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
not least for the honourable member who has taken such a personal | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
interest in the subject and I can confirm that mental health is one of | :15:40. | :15:42. | |
the issues which will be addressed by each of the plans that are going | :15:43. | :15:54. | |
to be taken forward. I hope that reassurance will see its way | :15:55. | :15:56. | |
through. I am going to make a little bit of progress. The issues facing | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
Hackney are not the same as those based in Ludlow and a single | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
national plan would not be effective or appropriate. Indeed, the Labour | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
Party recognises in the general election manifesto, which most | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
people on that side of the House stood on, it said to reshape | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
services over the next ten years, the NHS will need the freedom to | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
collaborate, integrate and merge across organisational divides. | :16:24. | :16:32. | |
Could the minister let me know what percentage of acute trusts are in | :16:33. | :16:42. | |
deficit and what proportion of CCGs are in special measures? Many trusts | :16:43. | :16:52. | |
in the last financial year were in deficit and those deficits were | :16:53. | :16:54. | |
funded by the Department of Health. Looking forward, we are using the | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
financial discipline of control totals not to instigate cuts but to | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
hold the accountable managers to account for delivering within the | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
financial envelope. This is what responsible government and | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
administration does. We give money to public services and expect them | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
to live within their means. This year, the NHS has received one of | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
the largest cash settlements it is ever had. Over three times more than | :17:25. | :17:26. | |
the rate of inflation. Can I ask my honourable friend to | :17:27. | :17:45. | |
look very closely at STP footprints? For those of us who represent ball | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
errors, our experience is aligning our areas with more urban centres | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
can very often mean a constituents get a raw deal. Since my footprint | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
includes urban areas in Bath in Swindon, I am concerned that the | :18:02. | :18:06. | |
same thing may happen again. If I manage to get there, I will come | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
onto the Prince and how it was that 44 areas were identified. It is | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
clearly the case that in rural areas in Wiltshire and Shropshire, we look | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
to urban areas to provide acute care for all of our local residents. It | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
is appropriate that the print areas are sufficient to encompass both the | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
acute and full range of primary sectors. Can he tell the House what | :18:34. | :18:46. | |
is happening in relation to bed blocking and what the government is | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
doing to deal with the impact on the community? He races a critical | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
point. One of the real challenges facing the NHS is how to make | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
discharge out of the acute setting right the way through the patient | :19:03. | :19:09. | |
flow more effective. That is precisely why we are looking at | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
bringing the local authorities into the footprints for these STPs so the | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
entire patient pathway can be taken into account. I will give way to the | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
honourable member for Colchester, who has been the most persistent... | :19:25. | :19:35. | |
Chelmsford in Essex, sorry. I am very grateful to my honourable | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
friend. So that there can be no misunderstanding, because the Shadow | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
Secretary of State does not seem to have fully grasped the brief, will | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
my honourable friend, with his superior knowledge, explain | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
categorically to the House about transparency in the health service, | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
not only regarding STPs, but other reconfigurations that always | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
automatically has to be a public consultation with local communities | :20:10. | :20:19. | |
before any decisions are made? My honourable friend does have a great | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
deal of experience in this area, having served in the Department for | :20:24. | :20:31. | |
many years. He pre-empts the remarks I am proposing to make about | :20:32. | :20:39. | |
precisely how these STPs are subject to full and appropriate public | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
consultation. I will now proceed with my remarks, as I have been | :20:44. | :20:52. | |
quite generous already. As part of NHS England's annual planning round | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
in 2015, NHS England published planning guidance in December last | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
year, nine months ago, which called for clinical commissioning groups to | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
come together with their providers across entire health economies to | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
develop a collective strategy for addressing the challenges in their | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
area. These are the sustainability and transformation plans. There are | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
44 of these areas and the areas were agreed in March, six months ago, | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
covering the whole of England, bringing together multiple | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
commissioners and providers in a unique exercise in collaboration. | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
These geographies have been determined not by central diktats | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
but by what commissioners have felt made the most sense locally. Each | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
area has also identified a strong senior leader who has agreed to | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
chair and lead the STP process but half of their peers. These are well | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
respected credible figures in their local health economies and we in NHS | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
England are committed to supporting them, to bring people together to | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
agree a shed plan for how best to improve and sustain health services | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
for their local populations. Local authorities are also fully engaged | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
in the development of these plans. In some cases, local authorities | :22:15. | :22:23. | |
that a senior council leader is leading the STP, and this is | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
happening in Birmingham, for example. In Merseyside and Cheshire, | :22:27. | :22:36. | |
it is clear from the leaked document that they are looking by 2021 to | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
save ?1 billion. In that context, does he not believe that proposals | :22:44. | :22:49. | |
to merge hospitals and cut services in Liverpool will lead to an | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
absolute outcry when the secret proposals that have been leaked | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
finally get consulted upon? I think the honourable lady is leaping far | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
too far ahead. There are no proposals at this point. I will come | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
on to explain the state of STPs shortly. There are a number of draft | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
ideas to try to improve the services delivered to patients. Looking to | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
the future and the efficiencies that need to be provided, as part of the | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
five-year forward view, the NHS leadership asks the government to | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
fund ?1 billion of additional cash into the NHS. We provided 10 | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
billion. The Labour Party refused to provide anything like it. And in | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
return, the NHS agreed to look for ?22 billion of efficiencies up to | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
2020. We have assisted them to the efforts of Lord Carter, who we are | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
asked to undertake a review. He has identified ten work streams where | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
there are clear of efficiencies that can be found, many of which have | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
been identified by members opposite. The Shadow spokesman herself has | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
referred in the past the areas where there is waste in the NHS and the | :24:13. | :24:19. | |
recent comments in the newspapers this week from the former chair the | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
Public Accounts Committee referred to some spending practice in the NHS | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
is absurd. It is trying to put some of these things right there have | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
been swept under the carpet for too long. I would like to turn to the | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
timetable on progress so far. Each area was asked to work together for | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
the first six months to draw up their initial thinking into a first | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
draft plan. It was published internally up to the NHS England by | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
the end of June. These were individually reviewed by senior | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
leaders from NHS England during July and August. Each area is now in the | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
process of developing their STP with a view to submitting a work Duplan | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
the NHS England in October. The plans as one would expect will vary | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
in-depth proposals but all I expected to demonstrate a shared | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
understanding of where an error is in relation to the three challenges | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
set out in the five-year forward view and where they need to be by | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
2020 -- 21. The last time I had the opportunity to give way, he was very | :25:27. | :25:33. | |
generous. Part of the concern in my constituency about the north-west | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
London STP relates to the fact that Harrow receives less per patient | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
than any other part of London. We have sought for some months a | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
meeting with a minister and I want to discuss that very issue. But the | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
minister himself be prepared to receive a delegation from our | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
clinical commissioning group to discuss this issue? I am grateful to | :25:55. | :26:04. | |
him for his kind words about my willingness to take interventions | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
from both sides of the House. Funding allocations across the NHS | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
are a legacy of the allocation formulas set in place by the | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
government of which he was a member during the last Labour government. | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
There are people all across the country, not least in rural areas | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
like Shropshire, who cannot understand why it is that the | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
funding per capita in some parts of the country are much less generous | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
than others. This is something I am taking an interest in. I would be | :26:37. | :26:39. | |
willing to sit down with him and colleagues to understand what the | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
particular circumstances are in north-west London. We will have to | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
do that after the coming recess. I will go back to the progress made | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
with these plans. In addition to what I have just said, they are all | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
expected to present a strategy for their area and identified the top | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
3-5 priorities required to deliver it. The most advanced plans, we are | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
also expecting areas to sit at how they will deliver national | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
priorities. They will include mental health and diabetes. Some will build | :27:13. | :27:19. | |
on the early work which has been developing better coordinated models | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
over the past year or so. These plans for the NHS is a unique | :27:26. | :27:28. | |
opportunity to think strategically. For the first time, the NHS is | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
planning across multiple organisations. Commissioners and | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
providers with local authorities to address the health needs of Mary and | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
the people it serves. Also for the first time, the NHS is producing | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
multi-year plans, showing clearly how local services will develop over | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
the next five years to deliver real improvements in patient care and | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
better efficiency to ensure continued sustainability of the NHS | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
to cope with rising demand from our ageing population. This is leading | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
some STPs to face up to tough choices. Choices that may have been | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
postponed because they were always too hard or relied on individual | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
organisations operating on their own to shoulder the responsibility | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
rather than share it across the geography or whole health care | :28:22. | :28:28. | |
economy. Does he recognise the concerns in constituencies like | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
mine, a border constituency with Wales, which suffers from pressures | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
due to numerous closures of hospitals in Wales by the Welsh | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
Labour government and the pressures that places on the Cheshire and | :28:43. | :28:52. | |
Merseyside? I share a border with Wales like she does so I am acutely | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
aware that patients in Wales have to wait longer, get less good access to | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
treatment in Wales and England, and many of them are looking to English | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
hospitals to provide the service that is not available in Wales in | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
part because of a conscious political decision for less funding | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
to go to the health service in Wales by the worst government. I met a | :29:15. | :29:24. | |
young surgeon last week. She was caring. She was so dedicated that it | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
made me proud that she worked for the NHS but I was not proud to hear | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
about the facility she has to work in following the cancellation of a | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
hospital project in 2010. They can have as many plans as they like but | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
if you do not have the infrastructure, he cannot deliver | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
the care that some of our communities require. There is | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
undoubted pressure on infrastructure is there is an technology, and as | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
technology improves and becomes available to the NHS, it provides | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
opportunity for much more care to be undertaken closer to the patient, | :30:03. | :30:08. | |
increasingly in or near their home. That will have consequences for the | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
infrastructure we have. Some of that will lead the reconfiguration of | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
existing hospital services. There is a programme of relegation against | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
our hospitals and cannot get everywhere at the same time. I | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
apologise to the honourable gentleman for not leaving a shiny | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
new hospital like you would like but there is a building programme which | :30:34. | :30:34. | |
will continue in the future. As you are aware, we have particular | :30:35. | :30:46. | |
issues in Cumbria which has led to as having the success regime, we are | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
about to go to consultation on that in key areas like maternity, AMD. My | :30:52. | :30:59. | |
constituencies are concerned about how this is going to fit in with the | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
success regime. Would it not be a challenge and confusing? This will | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
become subsumed within the STP but the attractions, the advantages for | :31:14. | :31:19. | |
those areas in the success regime are that it means that the areas | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
have been working together for longer than the pure STP areas and | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
will have benefit with the maturity of their plan. I'm not going to take | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
any more interventions because I have to wind up shortly. The | :31:35. | :31:43. | |
honourable lady has raised in her remarks are some concerns I'd like | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
to address before I wind up. She has said that the STPs will result in | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
significant cuts and changes to front line services. For all her | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
protestations, these plans are not about cuts. They are about local | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
areas including provision is and providers coming together to improve | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
services in the medium and long-term. Some areas are taking | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
difficult decisions to tackle long-term problems but this will be | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
subject to rigorous and national security. I can categorically assure | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
the lady that no changes will occur without consultation and in the | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
normal process of reconfiguration. She has accused the process of | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
lacking transparency and time. Planning within the NHS is not new. | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
There is an annual planning round which culminates in December each | :32:44. | :32:53. | |
year. Since then, local STP leads have been engaging locally as they | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
deemed appropriate. There has been no secret. For the first time in | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
years, different NHS bodies with local authorities have been working | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
collaboratively to develop these plans. The 44 local areas are | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
submitting plans to NHS England for consideration in October. The NHS | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
will scrutinise these plans and make recommendations over which to take | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
forward and prioritise for formal consultation which will follow. | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
Implementation will take place once the feedback has been assessed so | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
that from early next year, this implementation will begin with the | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
time is dependent on each individual area's specific proposal. The | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
honourable lady has claimed that it does not allow for sufficient | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
parliamentary engagement. The proposals remain at draft stage but | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
the local authorities are responsible for in gauge went with | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
local stakeholders when they are ready and proposed changes will be | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
subject to local consultation. Many have engaged with the groups of | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
clinicians and other stakeholders in their areas already in providing | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
draft plans. Local areas will be launching public consultation | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
shortly once updated plans have been scrutinised by NHS England and we | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
would welcome public involvement and from members of Parliament and I | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
have no doubt there will be opportunities in coming months to | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
continue these discussants in this house and in the Department because | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
I will be willing to talk to members of Parliament who are concerned | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
about activities in their area. The honourable lady has called on the | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
government to publish the plans. These plans are being planned by | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
local areas within the NHS and they will be subject to further | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
consultation in due course. She has raised concerns about the use of | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
private sectors advisers in developing STPs. I'd like to point | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
out very gently to her if I made, the irony that 38 degrees who she | :34:58. | :35:06. | |
relied upon for much of her advice in this debate rely on a | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
private-sector advisory group themselves, whose report I happen to | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
have. A recognised private sector adviser within the NHS. It is a bit | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
rich to come to the house arguing against the use of the private | :35:24. | :35:35. | |
sector when she does so herself. I'm sorry that it is such an acrimonious | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
debate today because I welcome the principle of the sustainability of | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
the transformation plans. These are key opportunity to reverse the | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
fragmentation and reintegrate the NHS but you actually have to get it | :35:52. | :35:57. | |
right so to turn this into just a game of moving the deck chairs on | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
the Titanic would be really an opportunity that we would regret in | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
a few years' time. This is a place -based approach and that is similar | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
to what we have in Scotland so I absolutely welcome it but the places | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
have to be right. They need to cover the whole population and the | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
geography as to make sense. That is in the relationships of the | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
organisations that are there but you have to think of things like public | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
transport. There is no point plonking a community in an STP that | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
they are completely unconnected to. How these places are designed is | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
really important. The partners that are in them. All of this should be | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
about integration and reintegration from acute care, primary care and | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
local authority. So that we have single pathways and wraparound | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
patient centred care. I will give way. I have some sympathy with what | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
she is saying but does she agree with me that integration is not | :37:02. | :37:07. | |
going to happen in any one part of those partnerships are severely | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
underfunded. She mentions local authorities. Many of the pressures | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
in the NHS today are solely as the root cause of the severe | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
underfunding of adult social care. Don't we make sure that these | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
finances are in place for STP is to work. I totally agree. That is what | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
I was coming on to. It is not just funding. It is the whole model. The | :37:35. | :37:44. | |
tariff model rewards hospitals for doing minor things and punishes them | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
for doing more complex things. Just working harder and doing more makes | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
the deficit grow. The problem we have is that we have all sorts of | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
perverse incentives in the system that mean organisations will still | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
be looking out for their budget and their survival instead of working | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
together. What has happened in Scotland, we got rid of hospital | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
trusts, Primary Care Trusts, since 20 14th we've had integrated joint | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
wards but they were handed joint funding that came from health and | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
local authority which meant the whole business of your purse or my | :38:23. | :38:30. | |
purse disappeared. Then you can look what is the best way to make the | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
pathways smooth. Getting a shared vision of what it is you are trying | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
to get is crucial. It means stakeholders, both those who work in | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
the NHS and those who use it, need to believe in where you are trying | :38:48. | :38:54. | |
to get to. Public conversations and involvement, not consulting on | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
something that is already signed off but actually involving their ideas | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
in what they would like it to be would make it much stronger. I think | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
there are deep-seated changes that need to be made to the system as | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
opposed to only talking about the money for the deficits. It's clear, | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
already on the health committee we've been talking about it for | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
ages, the phrase sustainability has been short hand for paying off the | :39:24. | :39:31. | |
deficit. The 2.1 billion for transformation, 1.8 billion is in | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
earmarked for deficit. At least 300 million to change an entire system. | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
I know we talk about money a lot in the here and it is important but we | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
have far vigour sustainability issues than the 2.5 billion deficit | :39:47. | :39:54. | |
in the NHS. We have an ageing population. They are carrying more | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
and more chronic illnesses. That means more demand, more complexity | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
and more convocations. That is one of the things that is actually | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
pushing the NHS to fall over. On the other side of that, we have a | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
shortage in our workforce. We don't have enough nurses or doctors, | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
including specialists, consultants, A and general practitioners. | :40:21. | :40:27. | |
Although the advice has been very much that finances were third and | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
prevention and quality of care was meant to come one and two in | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
delivering the five-year forward, finances seems to be trumping | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
everything else. It's absolutely correct that health is no longer | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
buildings, there are lots of methods of health that are bringing care | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
closer to patients and some things that are taking patients further | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
away from their home. We have hyper acute stroke units, urgent cardiac | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
units, where they get an angiogram and angioplasty that prevent heart | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
failure in future, but you can't start there. You can't shut | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
hospitals and units to free up money to do better things. You have to | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
actually go for the transformation and do the better things first. To | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
design the service around the pathways we need. That wraparound | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
care for patients. Then work backwards. If more health and | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
treatment is coming closer to the patient, then we will see, I don't | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
go to the hospital very often and I want that hospital to have | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
everything it needs when I need it. Then you can look at the estate and | :41:38. | :41:44. | |
see, do we have the right units and in the right place? What concerns me | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
is this seems to be the other way around. We are starting with | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
hospitals which often is a very expensive thing to do and hoping it | :41:53. | :42:00. | |
will deliver everything else. Thank you for giving way. I thank the | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
honourable lady. Out of the original sum of money allocated for this | :42:09. | :42:16. | |
transformation process the vast majority seems to be going to prop | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
up acute trusts and very little is available for transformation. As I | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
said, it only leaves 300 million. You cannot transform a system on the | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
scale that is being considered on ?300 million. The guidance talks | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
about prevention, tackling health inequalities, focusing on health and | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
well-being and by that I mean physical and mental well-being. We | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
need to be strengthening public health. Something else that has been | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
cut. We need to look at the quality of health and care right across in | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
social care. We must fund social care because it can make a | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
difference to things like delayed discharges. We are not even three | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
years down the integration in Scotland, only to a half years, and | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
yet delayed discharges has dropped 9% and, yet, the last time the | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
Secretary of State was in select committee, it has gone up 32%. | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
Literally just moving things around and allowing one part of the system | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
to fail will mean that the entire system will fail. I always listen | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
with care to what the honourable lady has to say and agree with a | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
great deal of it. Would she agree that part of the problem with | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
delayed discharges is a retrenchment of community hospitals and their | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
beds which have provided step up, step-down care into needed beds and | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
they are unfortunately available which means inevitably hospital | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
discharges are delayed with all that distress it causes? I totally agree. | :43:58. | :44:06. | |
It is care in the home for those who can go to that. Convalescence for | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
those who require it. In my health board, we have rebuilt the three | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
cottage hospitals. They are now modern state-of-the-art small units | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
that means our population have less to travel. Older people will not | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
need to come to hospital. We are still in that transition. They are | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
not doing everything they have potential for but certainly in | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
Scotland, indeed, we are and were all population, but there is more | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
recognition that you need intermediate care between people | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
being at home and looked after by their GP and ending up in a very | :44:42. | :44:49. | |
expensive acute unit. It is not just finance. People do not want to be in | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
hospital. These levels of care are crucial. It's important that this | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
grows out of the ST Petes. I see that this is a crucial opportunity | :45:02. | :45:09. | |
that can't be missed. There is a startling fact about underfunding of | :45:10. | :45:11. | |
social care that ministers can't get away from. We've heard today of a | :45:12. | :45:19. | |
case of a care worker suing the contract they work for, only paid ?3 | :45:20. | :45:27. | |
27 per hour, how can somebody be discharged from hospital adequately | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
when that is the domiciliary care waiting for them? It was interesting | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
to hear the former care Minister say that we have not got the cost of | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
adult social care sorted out. I totally agree. I'm not sure if the | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
honourable lady took part in the carers debate that we had not long | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
ago. I made the point that unless we develop social care as a profession, | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
then all others face a fairly miserable time in old age. Nursing | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
is a profession that is recognised and valued. Caring for our ill and | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
elderly population should also be. To give them time to do their job | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
and to pay them and give them a career development structure that | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
means we bring the best people up and running teams. | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
I was disappointed at the aggression on both sides. I know it is always a | :46:20. | :46:27. | |
good tennis match for point-scoring but the development of the STPs is | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
literally an opportunity where there would be things everyone in this | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
House would agree with but if this is just a figleaf to pretend that | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
something is being done, the NHS will suffer and we will be the | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
generation of politicians who move the deck chairs on the Titanic. | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
Pleasure to follow my colleague on the health committee. I absolutely | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
agree that we should see this as an opportunity to move away from the | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
fragmented system where people are moving the commission and provide | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
care in isolated silence the one that looks across the whole of the | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
system, across geographical areas, where we can move to a system where | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
we have a truly integrated approach between health and social care. But | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
to do that, we need to see local authorities involved in STPs as well | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
as the health system. We need to also involve local people. The | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
lesson we learned from every major reorganisation has been there if you | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
take local people with you on the journey, they are much more likely | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
to be successful. We should not see genuine local consultation and | :47:48. | :47:49. | |
engagement as an inconvenience but something that actually improves the | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
eventual plans. I think it is a real shame that this debate has devolved | :47:54. | :48:01. | |
into secret NHS plans and now NHS England has the that and say, how | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
could they have been better at engaging local communities and those | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
who represent them? It is a great shame that members across this House | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
were not able to see the draft plans until they were leaked to the press. | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
That is not the right way forward for any genuine engagement. Would | :48:20. | :48:27. | |
she not agree with me that if staff, nurses, doctors, physios, | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
pharmacists, had been involved from the start of the process, that would | :48:31. | :48:40. | |
have helped staff morale in the NHS? I absolutely agree with my | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
honourable friend. It is about local communities and their | :48:48. | :48:49. | |
representatives. Public meetings are important but so are involving | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
public bodies like health watch, making sure underrepresented groups | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
are involved. The honourable gentleman opposite talked about the | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
need to involve mental health services in these plans. It is very | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
important we make sure the underrepresented groups are | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
involved, including those who use mental health services. The | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
honourable lady, with the lifetime of experience in the NHS, is | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
absolutely right about the importance of consultation. Dishy | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
therefore understand the concern expressed by both the staff at the | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
Dove sexual health centre in one of the poorest constituencies in | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
England and the 2000 patients, that none of them have been consulted, | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
neither have any of the stakeholders, over a proposal to | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
close a vital facility? I thank the honourable gentleman for his | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
intervention. The plans you produce at the end of the day will be better | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
if you involve those who are both using services, those who are | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
providing them as well as those commissioning them as you go along | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
rather than presenting a freight company because then it becomes a | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
more binary choice rather than one where people can make suggestions to | :50:11. | :50:18. | |
improve plans in development. I know that Scotland is a lot easier to get | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
round in population or the size and transport is not that easy, but one | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
of the mechanisms the Scottish Government use is what they call a | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
national conversation, and that is literally that the ministerial team | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
go walkabout and have meetings to hear directly before anything goes | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
on paper. I would like if I made to make progress. If we get too caught | :50:44. | :50:51. | |
up in the process of consultation, we will miss some very serious | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
underlying hurdles that are in the way of STPs achieving their aims. | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
Chief among those is the issue of finance. The NHS is in its seventh | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
year now of a historic level of austerity, the average increase of | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
1.1% uplift in funding to the NHS over the last six years is an | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
extraordinary challenge when we look at that and the context of | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
increasing demand. It is a good thing that we are living longer but | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
we are living longer with more complex conditions, more expensive | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
treatments available, to tackle those. We need to be clear that | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
because of that, divide is opening up, even though the settlement for | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
health has been generous in relation to other government departments. It | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
means that a significant gap is opening up in health but even worse | :51:48. | :51:55. | |
in social care. We know from figures that 400,000 fewer people are in | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
receipt of social care packages in 2015-16 than they were in 2009-10. | :52:00. | :52:08. | |
Not only fewer people are receiving social care packages, but the | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
packages they are receiving less. Very much of what we see around the | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
STPs is about transferring care into the community. We need to be | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
absolutely clear that we need to make sure that the funding is there | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
to provide the social care packages but also that we have the workforce | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
to deliver them. In the area I represent, the proposals are too | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
close two community hospitals used by my constituents. I know as a | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
former rollable GP just how important these facilities at a | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
local people. These are the places that are not only special to people | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
for the step down, step up care that the honourable lady opposite | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
referred to. These are places that people like to be at the end of | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
their lives, providing personal care to people and allowing people, | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
particularly in rural areas who are doubly disadvantaged by not being | :53:10. | :53:14. | |
able to travel to a larger centres, the opportunity to be treated closer | :53:15. | :53:27. | |
to home. In my constituency, a hospital has been adopted by the | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
local community and is continuing to provide that step up, step down care | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
without being part of the NHS. I wonder whether she would be | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
interested in meeting some of the trustees of the hospital? It may | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
provide some hope for the future as a way that communities can come | :53:47. | :53:49. | |
together and support their local assets. I have been to visit on many | :53:50. | :53:57. | |
occasions community hospitals to hear from community hospitals around | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
the country and I will continue to do so. I would like to commend the | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
very valuable role they play. Would she agree with me the community | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
hospitals can also keep the bean counters happy since, if you get the | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
case measure right, it can treat people in Community Hospital beds | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
much more affordably than in an acute unit which is extraordinary | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
costly? You will also give patients what they would like, which is care | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
close to their homes, as my constituents will attest, where we | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
still have Community Hospital beds and I know my honourable friend | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
would say the same. I thank my honourable friend. Across this | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
House, we are all aware of the value of community hospitals to our | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
constituents to take that back a step further, I would say that the | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
best bet for any patient is their own bed, provided they can be given | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
the right package of care close to home. We know that there are many | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
people, even within Community Hospital beds, that do not need to | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
be there. They are there because they want the right social care | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
package to enable them to be a home. What we should do is be realistic. | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
Of the financial challenge they also face and the cost of providing those | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
services. This is a huge challenge for them. In my area alone, the STP | :55:27. | :55:34. | |
is facing a ?572 million shortfall by 2021 if they do not take any | :55:35. | :55:40. | |
action. I can understand why they will look at the relative cost of | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
providing care to people both in acute hospitals, community hospitals | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
and at home and make an argument that sounds very reasonable about | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
how you could care much better for a larger number of people if that | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
setting was at home. But go back to the point that my friend, the member | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
for Central Ayrshire made. You need to have access to the transformation | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
part of the fund to put those services in place. Very often, to | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
build the infrastructure that we need, or example, when I look at | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
Dartmouth, I look at the possibility of providing more care closer to | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
home within a community hub. But that will take having upfront funds | :56:28. | :56:36. | |
to build and develop a new centre back and actually allow people to | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
develop the work force and provide more services closer to home. The | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
trouble is what we often see is the closure of a much loved facility | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
without the new service in place and that is what I would like to see as | :56:51. | :56:59. | |
plans progress, a genuine focus on the opportunities we can have to | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
provide more care closer to home. I do fear that we will miss that | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
opportunity because, as we have already heard, ?1.8 billion of the | :57:10. | :57:18. | |
?2.1 billion fund is going towards the sustainability bit and only ?300 | :57:19. | :57:28. | |
million is left nationally to put in place all these plans. We also know | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
that part of the way the government has managed to fulfil its promise to | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
NHS England in terms of the funding they asked for has been to take | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
funding out of capital budgets because these are essentially flat | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
cash, but also to take money out of health education England budgets and | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
public budgets. It does concern me that many of the principles behind | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
the sustainability and transformation plans are put at risk | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
by other parts of the system. We have already heard the point about | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
prevention. It is central to the achievements of the sustainability | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
and transformation plans, the prevention peas, the public health | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
peace. It is a great shame the Public health budgets have been | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
squeezed in order for them to achieve those aims. I know there are | :58:26. | :58:28. | |
many members wishing to speak so I will move on and make asks of the | :58:29. | :58:36. | |
minister in moving forward. There is more that the government can do. We | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
were very disappointed on the health committee that none of the witnesses | :58:42. | :58:50. | |
that came for us from NHS England, NHS improvement or the Department of | :58:51. | :58:59. | |
Health were able to set out the impact of cuts to social care on | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
health care. We really do need to do much better quantifying the cost of | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
the NHS because of cuts to the NHS budget. I think that the minister | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
needs to take the long view of prevention and help the service by | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
implementing policies that could help local authorities to make | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
changes. For example, I would suggest making a hell of a material | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
consideration in planning and licensing. We need a much greater | :59:31. | :59:39. | |
focus on workforce because the sustainability and transformation | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
plans cannot achieve their aims if there is not the workforce in place | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
to achieve it. Finally, I would ask the Minister if you would kindly | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
visit my area to look at the proposals within the sustainability | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
and transformation plans in South Devon, to look at the opportunities | :59:58. | :00:05. | |
and how we could achieve them. Some people will not get in. | :00:06. | :00:18. | |
I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today. | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
Sustainability and transformation plans, should the public be | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
concerned, and are they good, bad or a mixture of both? As we have heard, | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
STPs have been drawn up in 44 areas in England by a range of people | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
involved in the running of the NHS and local government. As far as I | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
can work out, they have come about because NHS England could see that | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
in the chaos following the last government's health and social care | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
packed, there was no obvious body responsible for thinking about how | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
best to NHS staff at local and governmental | :00:56. | :01:10. | |
levels were charged with discussing the best way to meet those needs and | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
developing ideas as to how those needs might be better met within | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
available resources. So far, so good. There are three big problems. | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
First, the current financial pressures on the NHS means these | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
plans are likely to be all about sustainability and not | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
transformation. Second, this is a standardised process is to define | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
and drive change running the risk of good proposals being lumped in with | :01:47. | :01:55. | |
bad ones and some plans simply focusing on the achievable as | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
opposed to the necessary and most desirable. Third, these plans are | :02:00. | :02:07. | |
being developed when there is huge public cynicism about the motives of | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
a Tory government when it comes to change in the NHS. If you want to | :02:12. | :02:16. | |
deliver change, the debate with the public needs to start in the right | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
place, not behind closed doors, not using jargon that no one | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
understands. It needs to be focused on patients and their families and | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
not accountants and spreadsheets. I think most people understand that | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
the NHS can't be preserved in aspic. They understand that compared to the | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
1950s we now use the NHS in a very different way. At the moment, they | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
simply see an NHS under enormous pressure. They are waiting longer | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
for an ambulance to see a GP, to be treated in a A, people are on the | :02:54. | :03:05. | |
streets in protest. When MPs and their nature leaders talk about | :03:06. | :03:13. | |
transformation they are dubious. For sustainability, they read cuts and | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
in some cases they will be right. Cutting staff, closing services, | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
restricting access to treatment. No matter how good the plan, no matter | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
how thorough the analysis or innovative dissolution, you cannot | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
escape the basic problem of inadequate funding for both the NHS | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
and social care. I will give way. Certainly, in my constituency we are | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
very concerned because Bristol is in surplus but we will be going in with | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
North Somerset which has a cumulative deficits. To us, it means | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
cuts. That's the story we hear from all over the country. This is not | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
profligate overspending on the part of NHS bosses or local government | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
leaders. It is chronic underfunding on the part of government. There was | :04:10. | :04:25. | |
much fun -- fanfare alongside the last budget but it is a flat-lining | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
budget to deal with soaring demand. The reality is that in the last ten | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
years, the number of people living beyond 80 has increased by half a | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
million. The NHS and social care is buckling under the strain. While we | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
should never give up on trying to organise the NHS in the most | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
efficient and effective way possible, we have a choice as a | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
country. Do we want to cut services to match the funding available? Do | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
we want to pay more to ensure our grandparents and mums and dads get | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
the sort of care that we would want for them. If the NHS is to provide | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
decent care for older people, not only do we have to fund social care | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
adequately but we also need to find better ways of organising services | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
to keep people out of hospital for as long as possible. That leads me | :05:19. | :05:25. | |
to the second problem. STPs are being used as a catchall process to | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
bring about change in the NHS but many run the risk of focusing on the | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
wrong things. They are being used to do different things in different | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
places and while some may lead to better outcomes, the danger is that | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
there will be blanket opposition to everything. Some proposals will be | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
controversial. The closure or downgrading of an A department | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
will never be easy. But these plans may end up with a lot of focus on | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
something that isn't the burning issue. In my local area, the | :06:04. | :06:12. | |
Southeast London STP proposes to orthopaedic care centres. The sites | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
I've never been agreed. On the face of it, there is nothing wrong with | :06:19. | :06:29. | |
the proposal. Create centres of excellence so that all operations | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
are done in one place. But when newspapers talk about secret plans | :06:35. | :06:44. | |
to close A they will smell a rat when one might not exist. I'm aware | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
that many people want to speak and I wish to conclude my remarks. They | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
say, what happens if Lewisham is on the site of the new centre? If it is | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
shifted elsewhere and Busby. Does just that the emergency department? | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
Is orthopaedic care and the burning issue in south-east London? What | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
about the queues of ambulances? What about the homeless man who pitches | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
up in A because he has nowhere to sleep and there is nowhere for him | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
in the community. Where does the money come from to redesign the NHS | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
buildings that such a care centre would entail? With ?1 billion taken | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
out of the capital budget and switched to revenue last year, it | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
seems fanciful to think that there will be money lying around to do | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
these sorts of projects. The NHS is on its knees. Everyone knows that | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
hospitals ended up being ?2.5 billion in deficit last year. We | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
have seen the reports of the A closing overnight because they don't | :07:54. | :08:01. | |
have the staff. We know that GPs are run ragged, ambulance staff are | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
stressed out and nurses are demoralised. Without even mentioning | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
junior doctors. If you don't fund the NHS adequately, if you don't | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
staff it properly, don't be surprised when the public don't | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
trust your so-called improvement plans. There is a deep public | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
cynicism when it comes to anything that this government wants to do the | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
NHS. People believe government ministers are trying to privatise | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
it, they believe services are contracted out to the private sector | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
to save money and not improve quality and in many cases they will | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
be right. The problem isn't STPs as such but the context in which they | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
are being developed. Inadequate funding, an inability to make the | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
case for change, a workforce crisis which is leading to overnight | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
closure of services. As a result of all of these, a deep public mistrust | :08:59. | :09:11. | |
of government's intentions. May I congratulate my old whip to his | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
elevation to be Minister of State at health. I hope he brings with him | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
all the skills he learned at the Department of defence where he met | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
many tough challenges. There are many ahead. At a time when there is | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
upheaval in every department in Westminster, I suggest this is a | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
good time to look afresh at where this department is going and I'd | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
like to suggest some initiatives. This debate divides neatly into | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
sustainability and transformation. I'd like to suggest that to have a | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
sustainable health service is about reducing demand, we have to look at | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
reducing demand on the service, if we're going to have a transformation | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
it has to include increasing supply and looking for new types of | :10:03. | :10:10. | |
treatments that are available. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am proud to have | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
represented the middle of England, Leicestershire, for many years and, | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
in particular, the whole of Hinckley Borough Council and share the | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
initiatives they have taken since the health and social care act came | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
in to being and suggest what we need to do beyond the kind of initiatives | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
that this very successful Conservative controlled council have | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
taken. They have taken three major initiatives in my constituency. | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
Getting people to be more active, of all ages. Including young people | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
putting an activity days for soccer tops, aged 2-4. Bike ability courses | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
for six-year olds. BMX, track works, skipping, making smoothies, all | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
kinds of activities. They were also built a new leisure centre which has | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
been a huge success in that the numbers attending swimming in the | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
borough have gone up at an exponential rate. They have produced | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
excellent facilities. It's sad to relate that in my constituency 7% | :11:24. | :11:32. | |
have diabetes, 68% are recorded as having excess weight, 20% would be | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
obese. Obesity in children is increasing. My point is that however | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
good local people are, we have to take other steps. The chair of the | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
select committee knows what I am going to say. We have to look at | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
obesity. The sugar tax is very important but not enough. We are | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
going to have two deal with diet, food consumption and its very | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
welcome that we have a sugar tax now but the template for moving ahead is | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
the 100 year campaign to stop people smoking. To stop cigarettes | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
dominating our lives. It began in 1868 when the railway bill was | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
passed that mandated smoke-free carriages to prevent injury to | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
nonsmokers and culminated in England going smoke-free in 2007. Mr Deputy | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
Speaker, an transformation of local services we need to have more | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
services. Some of the services are not properly coordinated. I was on | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
the Osteopaths bill and chiropractors bill in 93 and 94. | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
Both regulated by an act of Parliament. But the Osteopaths, | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
chiropractors and orthopaedic surgeons do not talk. It's | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
ridiculous. Too many people having operations that could be dealt with | :13:00. | :13:07. | |
by chiropractors and spare parts. -- Osteopaths. Harry Clayton says that | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
of 63,000 practitioners covering 25 occupations, far too little are | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
being used in the health service. I think that's very sad. Mr Speaker, I | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
have to finish on that for the benefit of the chair, homoeopathy | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
has officially been recognised by the Swiss government to coexist with | :13:30. | :13:39. | |
conventional medicine following a referendum in Scotland where two | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
thirds of the population decided they wanted homoeopathy and | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
acupuncture, traditional Chinese medicine, herbal medicine and | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
holistic medicine as part of their health service and their insurance | :13:51. | :14:01. | |
company s now agree. I think the Labour Party were right to choose | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
the topic for the opposition they debate and wish the minister well in | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
confronting the financial difficulties in confronting these | :14:13. | :14:23. | |
difficulties. There was a call for ?22 billion of efficiency savings to | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
be found by 2020. That was on top of the 20 billion to be found between | :14:29. | :14:36. | |
2010 and 2015. I just don't think this should or can be done. The | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
total deficit in all national health Service trusts reached 2.4 | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
5,000,000,020 15-16. Almost three times greater than in 2015. Monitor | :14:48. | :15:01. | |
estimates that even with all realistic efficiency savings being | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
made a deficit of 1.5 billion would remain in this year's financial | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
year. It is simply not possible to deal with this situation through | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
efficiency savings. The government knows this and it is stuck. Hence | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
the sustainability and transformation plans covering the | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
next five years. Organised along 44 areas that don't have any coherence | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
to existing boundaries in the north-east, Northumberland, Tyne | :15:33. | :15:39. | |
Wear footprint covers five commissioning groups, six local | :15:40. | :15:41. | |
authorities and seven foundation trusts. Newcastle, the city I | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
represent, enjoys well-run and efficient health services, it is a | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
testament to staff at all levels in the National health services. Our | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
services are well regarded across the local area. But the | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
sustainability and transformation plans raise at least three serious | :16:04. | :16:04. | |
questions. If NHS England think that over half | :16:05. | :16:16. | |
of clinical commissioning groups are underperforming, why are they asking | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
them to draw up the key documents that will transform the structure of | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
the NHS? Given that many clinical commissioning groups will have to | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
merge, where is the motivation to create plans? And it seemed that the | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
footprints will have no formal structure, who is accountable for | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
the long-term consequences of the sustainability and transformation | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
plans? These plans or the approach that has been adopted bears a | :16:46. | :16:53. | |
striking resemblance to the previous top-down unwonted revision of the | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
NHS which we were promised would not happen when the government came to | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
power in 2010. So the government are doing almost a difficult thing to | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
do, which is to break their promises twice. This is not the first threat | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
the north-east has faced on the redistribution of money, downgrading | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
in the distribution formula the social deprivation component in | :17:23. | :17:29. | |
placing far more emphasis on the age-related part of the formula, | :17:30. | :17:36. | |
which affects the elderly rather than the people who are ill. When in | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
government, Labour promised to increase help spending to match the | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
European average of 8.5% of GDP. We kept his promise but successive | :17:50. | :17:57. | |
governments have failed to release funds to the health service and that | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
is why health spending will fall to 6.6% by 2021. That will leave us | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
lagging behind the average spend of 9.1% and compatible countries like | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
Germany, who spend 11% of GDP. The government should be honest about | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
the challenges the NHS faces and the response needed to meet those | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
challenges. The sustainability and transformation plans are a | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
fundamentally bureaucratic response to the funding in the NHS. As such, | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
it completely misunderstands what the NHS really needs is not more | :18:40. | :18:51. | |
meetings but more money. A change in life is frequently a source of | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
anxiety or downright scary. When you are young, you change schools. When | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
you get married, it is scary. But there is nothing scarier than change | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
in the way in which health services are provided. Perhaps it is not | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
surprising that the NHS is found in managing change one of the most | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
difficult things to accomplish. It is often an frequently, as the | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
honourable lady mentioned, there are substantial challenges, overwhelming | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
challenges, that we face in society, from people growing older with more | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
complex needs and more expensive equipment and supplies required to | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
assist ever increasing standards of expectation for health care in our | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
country. The NHS is presented with two options for change. One is | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
radical. We will meet those challenges and a fine future that | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
offers great outcomes for all. That sounds a bit too scary. On the other | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
side, the incremental approach which will move things along a little | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
minute but will not deal with the fundamentals but will enable us to | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
feel we retain the same institutions and structures with which we are | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
familiar. As someone who was born and grown up in Bedford, I am very | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
familiar with each of the buildings and institutions in my community, | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
and to see those changes are very scary thing. When we look at change, | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
we have to recognise this position of anxiety. It is important that all | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
Members of Parliament do not play on those anxieties. It is not effective | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
opposition to create scare stories ahead of an outcome. That is not in | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
the public interest. To raise concerns, yes, as the honourable | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
lady mentioned. Racial concerns but in a way that looks to the | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
sensitivities of local situations, and that is really what I would like | :20:58. | :21:06. | |
to focus my remarks on. I actually welcomed the approach of the STP, | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
first of all because of the integration of care with health, | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
secondly because it is providing for the first time local authorities | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
with a voice in the decision-making about local care choices. For the | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
first time, the NHS will not get its own way if this process lives up to | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
what it says will be actually local decision-making. I think that will | :21:32. | :21:33. | |
be very helpful in getting local support. I can see in my own | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
locality the community approach, which is now cross-party. We are all | :21:41. | :21:50. | |
united in our approach that says we want local care in the NHS and STP | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
is a way of having that. Would it not therefore, particularly if there | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
is a cross-party work across the local authority, be more effective | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
to have local consultation early on about what can be gained in exchange | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
for what might be felt to be lost? That question gets to the point I'm | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
getting too. I am sceptical about what consultation means. I was | :22:19. | :22:27. | |
trying to measure it in terms of MPs for Corby. It proceeded Louise | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
Mensch becoming MP, it went through or other period of Andy Salford | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
being MP, and now it is taking up the current MP. That has had | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
consultation and participation and all the features of the NHS saying | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
they want to listen to people, consult them, listen to them, no. It | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
went through and ticked all the boxes and was a complete another | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
disgrace in terms of its local accountability. I do not have this | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
reaction to say I do not trust Pauline Philip, the lead of our STP, | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
the chief executive, but I need to know everything. What I need to know | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
is that our local authorities are having their voices heard. I feel | :23:15. | :23:23. | |
relatively comfortable that that process, because it involves local | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
authorities as well as the NHS, will lead the options that are more | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
acceptable to the population. I would say to her another members | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
that the outcomes we should expect from these processes around the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
country will be highly varied. Some will be correct and acceptable and | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
go forward. Others will be controversial, downright wrong. We | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
should not curse this whole process across the country because it | :23:51. | :23:52. | |
achieves a difference in outcomes in different parts of the country. We | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
should be prepared to look at each on its own merits and judge them | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
accordingly. Is there not a real challenge to reconcile the reticence | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
to change and adapt would be clear imperative that new technologies and | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
ways of doing things can bring in terms of offering that step change | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
that is often resisted? Consultation will not necessarily deal with that. | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
I come back to the central part of what is different about STP. That is | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
the fact it is involving local authorities with things like mental | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
health issues, care in the community. That voice will be heard | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
more clearly also, these people are representing our local people. That | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
voice will make a substantial difference. Two final points. In | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
Bedford, as CCG is on the legal direction, or that affect local | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
decision-making as a result? Secondly, as CCG set up a joint | :24:57. | :24:59. | |
committee to review acute services, is he in a position to assure me | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
that that joint CCG will not take any part whatsoever in the decision | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
processes when the STP result is made? Like many others in this | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
House, I have received hundreds of e-mails from concerned constituents | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
about the sustainability and transformation plans, what this | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
means for the NHS nationally, regionally and locally. To put some | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
local context, my constituency covers two health trusts. They are | :25:30. | :25:43. | |
under four CCGs. We are in the council Borough of Kirklees which | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
serves a population of over 430,000. A hospital is in the advanced stages | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
of reconfiguration or downgrade as many people see it. The Dewsbury | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
Hospital with this week loses maternity unit. There will be | :25:59. | :26:06. | |
changes in acute surgery, gynaecology and paediatrics. The | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
accident and emergency centre will be reduced as well. On the other | :26:10. | :26:17. | |
side of my constituency SARS Huddersfield Royal Infirmary. They | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
have just completed a so-called consultation for the reconfiguration | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
of services. Their proposers are accepted, Huddersfield Royal | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
Infirmary will also have its accident and emergency department | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
downgraded. My constituents will be left without a full accident and | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
emergency provision, over 430,000 people who will have to travel | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
outside of the borough to access vital emergency health care. | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
Kirklees is a vast geographical area that spawns many towns and rural and | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
semirural areas and many people rely on public transport as a means of | :26:58. | :27:06. | |
travel. It brings about huge health issues and inequalities. These cuts | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
to services are not improving life chances of enhancing health care | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
provision. They are part of a cost-cutting exercise that could | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
result in lives being put at risk. Just this afternoon, it is reported | :27:18. | :27:24. | |
that a senior representative has commented that NHS England is | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
putting money before quality. We now learn that the government has set up | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
STPs to look at health services on a larger open. Some would soon suggest | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
this is a to shutting the stable door after hold-ups has bolted. How | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
could this work when we are so far down the line already there have | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
been developed and implemented completely and isolation of each | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
other with no regard for the wider population or the geographical | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
boundaries the cover? Unless the STPs had been put in place to | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
implement further cuts to our already overstretched NHS services. | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
We on these benches sadly acknowledge that our NHS is in | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
crisis. We are genuinely fearful for the future of health provision in | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
our country and these fears are shared by many health experts. One | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
of the key aims of STPs is to achieve financial balance by 2020. | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
They have concerns this will be the priority for STPs rather than | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
developing their best models for patients. Our assessment of draft | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
plans shows that in the absence of eye watering efficiency, there will | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
be a financial gap leading to hundreds of millions of pounds by | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
2021, and even by cost efficient measures, it would still not be | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
possible to achieve the financial balance expected by national | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
regulators. Their assessment has seen that struggling to achieve his | :28:54. | :29:01. | |
goals was like attempting to do synchronised swimming against a | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
tide. When will the government admit that their efficiency plans are not | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
working? And the only way to fully address these needs is to stop the | :29:10. | :29:16. | |
cuts and pledge more money and adequately fund our NHS? Constituent | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
contacted me this week. I said to heard the words that many of us have | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
used many times over the years. At least it is in the right place, | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
Hospital, getting the best care. While I know first-hand how hard | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
those in our health service are working and how much our staff do in | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
hospitals, how much confidence do we have in those words now in a time of | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
diminishing budgets and cuts the budgets? Our health services | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
adequate to provide the best care for our loved ones? The NHS will | :29:53. | :30:00. | |
last as long as there are people fighting for it. I along with my | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
colleagues on this side of the House will continue to fight tooth and | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
nail to ensure that this government does not succeed in destroying the | :30:08. | :30:09. | |
health service we hold so dear. plans raise at least three serious | :30:10. | :30:11. | |
questions. It's a great honour to be able to | :30:12. | :30:30. | |
speak in this debate. I would like to pick up on the remarks of the | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
Honourable member for Newcastle upon Tyne East who spoke about Labour's | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
commitment to meet OECD spending in 2001 on the NHS and I think it's | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
perfectly acceptable in a discussion of this kind to point out that in | :30:48. | :30:55. | |
2001 we had a balanced budget. The then Labour government had succeeded | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
in running a balanced budget for four years, Moreau less. We had at | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
the time, we thought, the money to meet that commitment. As a member of | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
that government, he will remember over the next nine years we ran | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
consecutive deficits and as a consequence of policy, I think | :31:15. | :31:21. | |
misguided, in many instances, we had a deficit of 160 billion, I think it | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
was when the coalition government took its place at the Treasury bench | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
in 2010. It was inevitable given the circumstances that there was going | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
to be a constraint on finance and that's something that we have to | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
speak about. I very much enjoyed the Honourable member for Central Asia's | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
contribution and she said, if I remember correctly, we talk about | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
finance but it should be the third consideration. I wish it was as easy | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
as that. I wish we could relegate finance to a subordinate role but I | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
don't think that is fair on the country. I don't think it is fair on | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
our constituents. The Honourable member for Newcastle on Tyne East, | :32:09. | :32:26. | |
talked about, obviously, the budget constraints and the fact we were not | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
spending enough money. I think this opportunity with the SDP is a | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
serious engagement with what all members recognise is an ongoing | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
problem, growing population, an ageing population, inevitably, | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
issues of finance, issues of resources will become increasingly | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
important and I'm very pleased to hear that local consultation will be | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
at the centre of this draft proposal because that is essential, that is | :33:04. | :33:12. | |
what our constituents want. In Ashford Hospital, right in the | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
centre of Spelthorne, many of the facilities have been downgraded. | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
It's been a difficult time. We've always tried, the borough council, | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
me as a member of Parliament, we've always tried to explain to residents | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
what was driving the decision. Why we were making the kinds of changes | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
that we sought to make. Broadly, they were very understanding. When | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
you explain to people and you can carry them with you, I think people | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
across the country are very sensible and they take a very measured view | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
of the services. They realise that the NHS of Nye Bevan in 1948 has had | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
to evolve. People are much more open to evolution and change than many | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
Honourable members of this house. My last point, a slightly -1, I've been | :34:02. | :34:13. | |
to many of these debates, on the economy, on welfare and all I hear | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
from the opposing benches is the same mantra, stop the cuts. More | :34:18. | :34:24. | |
money. For every single problem that we face as a country, this seems to | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
be their sole solution. The one answer. They always say that to a | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
man with a hammer, every problem is a nail. They seem to say stop the | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
cuts, more money is the answer to everything. I think it's entirely on | :34:45. | :34:54. | |
constructive. It's very disappointing to hear no | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
constructive ideas, no reform, no appetite for fresh thinking, | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
absolutely nothing in the way of intellectual engagement with the | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
real problems we face as a nation. It's very disappointing to take part | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
in another debate and have the same mantra, stop the cuts, more money. I | :35:11. | :35:17. | |
wanted to start by saying I very much agree with the point made by | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
the Honourable member for Central Ayrshire. This ought to present a | :35:23. | :35:30. | |
real opportunity. It has brought people together, discussions have | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
started across organisations that in the past haven't talked to each | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
other nearly enough both across the health and social care divide and | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
bringing in people from outside the health service and social care | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
system. I fear that the opportunity will be fatally undermined for three | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
central reasons. First of all, the point I made in my challenge to the | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
Minister, mental health. Unless every -esque TP addresses -- every | :35:57. | :36:06. | |
STP addresses the burden of mental health is central to its plan it | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
will fail. No doubt about that. I noticed the Minister and attempt at | :36:11. | :36:19. | |
a reassurance to me but it did not succeed because it seems that it is | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
not going to be a requirement that every plan sensually address this | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
problem. If it is not done, it will absolutely fail. We are dealing | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
often with some of the people who are failed most by the system who | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
use A departments more than any other people. Yet, my fear is that | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
this will be a massive missed opportunity in that regard. I will | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
give way very quickly. I wanted to make the point again. I will say it | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
very clearly. If an STP does not come forward with very clear plans | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
as to how mental health and dementia plans are going to move ahead very | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
quickly, they will not go ahead. I'm grateful for the Minister for that | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
and I hope the message goes out across the country. Andy bell today | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
has raced concerns about the process across many parts of the country. | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
The second question that causes real concern is the financial backdrop | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
and the ability to deliver on the plans given the finances are | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
available. We have already heard that the bulk of the money available | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
is going into clear link deficits in providers rather than the | :37:34. | :37:40. | |
transformation that is so necessary. As the Honourable member for | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
Spelthorne made clear to spend money more efficiently and effectively in | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
delivering care for our communities. When you hear the commentary of the | :37:49. | :37:55. | |
chief executive of the King 's fund, a well respected commentator, he | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
says that their assessment of the draft plans shows that in the | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
absence of eye watering efficiency improvements, there will be a | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
financial gap running into hundreds of millions of pounds into 2021 in | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
most footprints. Not across the country. This is completely | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
unachievable. He questions the deliverability of plans which | :38:20. | :38:21. | |
include the closure of cottage hospitals in many areas. The very | :38:22. | :38:29. | |
things that can keep people out of acute hospitals, we are in many | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
cases planning to close down. It makes no sense at all. The way in | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
which regulation operates in the NHS is that we regulate organisations | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
and not systems. So, within an STP from -- footprint, the organisation | :38:45. | :38:54. | |
has two concentrate on survival rather than looking at the full care | :38:55. | :39:02. | |
system for that area. It is an essential floor. I note that there | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
will be a consultation process but let me tell the government that if | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
they really think that a formal consultation process after full | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
draft plans have been produced in a secret process will in any way | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
conference the public that they are being properly involved, it will | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
fail. It is inevitable that it will fail. People are so suspicious of | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
consultation processes. They do not believe they are properly engaged | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
with. The only way to address these really difficult challenges, the | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
Honourable member for Spelthorne made a good point, people are | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
prepared to go on a journey and prepared to listen to potentially | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
radical changes, potentially to use money more effectively, but the only | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
way they will do that is if they are involved from the start, involved in | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
shaping the proposals rather than responding to something that has | :40:01. | :40:08. | |
been fixed behind closed doors. The Honourable member for Bedfordshire | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
knows full well how the public reacts when presented with what | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
looks like a fait accompli. Around the country, we're slimming down | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
acute hospitals, merging hospitals, and they have not been involved in | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
those plans and they will be rejected. We in no doubt. The | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
government is essentially facing a political disaster if it ploughs on | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
in that way. Open up. Involved the nonexecutive directors who have been | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
told they cannot be part of the discussions, even. This is | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
ridiculous. If we are to take people with us, we have to take them on the | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
journey and engage with them and... I give way very briefly. I am giving | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
a very clear signal that I should not. I take the point Mr Deputy | :40:59. | :41:05. | |
Speaker. I'm sorry for my Elderson. I will conclude by saying that this | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
is the right approach but it will be undermined because of a rushed | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
process that doesn't involve the public and doesn't take people on a | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
journey and because there is not enough money to deliver the | :41:21. | :41:31. | |
transformation required. I value our wonderful NHS having volunteered | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
again this summer in my local Community Hospital and I would like | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
to put on record my admiration for all the wonderful staff who provide | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
great care free at the point of delivery in our communities. Every | :41:43. | :41:51. | |
day our NHS is performing 4400 more operations and seeing 2500 more | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
people in A within four hours than it did in 2010. NHS spending in | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
England is going up by ?10 billion in real terms by 2020-21. Of which 6 | :42:04. | :42:11. | |
billion will be delivered by the end of 2016-17. Despite this, though, | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
many communities are seeing big challenges and it was good to hear | :42:19. | :42:27. | |
the calm, rational and considered comments from people in this debate. | :42:28. | :42:37. | |
I just want to speak briefly about my local proposed reconfiguration. | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
My local clinical commissioning group is planning to downgrade A | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
at Huddersfield Royal Infirmary in my constituency. A huge community | :42:48. | :42:54. | |
campaign is supported by the local community, local MPs of all parties, | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
local councillors and local GPs. If this downgrade happens, Huddersfield | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
will be the biggest town in England without a full ana. Patients needing | :43:04. | :43:17. | |
A in a growing university town would have to travel to Wakefield | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
along the notorious Al and bypass. The member for Tatton was taking | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
questions and I asked about the reconfiguration and he said the | :43:28. | :43:29. | |
decision must be based on clear evidence that it will develop better | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
outcomes for patients. He said decisions by local solutions must | :43:37. | :43:44. | |
meet four keep tests. Firstly, they must demonstrate public and patient | :43:45. | :43:51. | |
engagement. The results of the survey said 80% of people in | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
Huddersfield thought it would make care worse. The commissioners on the | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
CCG are proposing this change but the Kirklees local medical Council | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
that represents 200 local GPs have said local resources should be | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
developed instead and this controversial plan should be | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
dropped. Thirdly, based on clinical evidence. I'm pleased to say the | :44:17. | :44:23. | |
recent Sea QC report gave both Halifax and Huddersfield's A | :44:24. | :44:33. | |
departments of good ratings and the centralised department at Halifax | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
required improvement. It's clear that patients want the millions of | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
pounds that would be spent on a new planned care hospital in | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
Huddersfield instead used to improve and safeguard existence local A | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
services. I'm really not interested in the partisan politics of this. | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
And standing up to focus on fighting to save my local A unit. Patients | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
should come first. I have one question for the minister. I'm | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
hearing that the STP plans for West Yorkshire will be released on 21st | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
October, the day after my CCG makes its decision. How will this impact | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
on the future of a full A at Huddersfield Royal Infirmary? | :45:23. | :45:30. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I have serious concerns about the lack of | :45:31. | :45:37. | |
transparency in this whole process. The old pros should have been more | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
transparent. It appears to me that the only aim of the plans is to | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
secure funding rather than examine or improve services. In the black | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
burn and the surrounding area hospitals are under huge pressure, | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
as I'm sure Mr Deputy Speaker is fully aware with the closure of the | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
accident and emergency at Chorley Hospital. Couple that with the huge | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
burden facing local authorities and there's a real challenge of the | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
Pennine Lancashire Health Authority having to find ?238 million in the | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
next five years. With the best will in the world, from local authorities | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
and NHS trusts and communities, and about kind of pressure I feel the | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
change won't be for the better. Let's not forget the savage budget | :46:35. | :46:42. | |
cuts that face local authorities. Blackburn has already cut ?100 | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
million on its budget and again faces another 40 million by 20 20. | :46:47. | :46:52. | |
Mr Speaker, I am not opposed to a system approach in theory, for | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
hospital trust fund local authorities to group together. In | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
fact, as council leader for Blackburn Council for many years | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
that was one of our main aims. To improve services. However, it's not | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
clear, that in practice you effectively handed the task for | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
improvement with vanishing resources. The exemption of adult | :47:16. | :47:24. | |
social care from STP is has caused concern for local authorities up and | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
down the country. To submit a plan and be told to leave out that | :47:29. | :47:37. | |
doesn't quit the role fit in with the budget is not helpful. It | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
doesn't produce a more efficient, better service. | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
The funding gap in adult social care is a real and true crisis facing | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
local authority with no remedy to fix it coming forward at the moment. | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
Many pressure groups, experts and even the Chief Executive of the NHS, | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
Simon Stephens, have publicly advised the Government to make extra | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
funding available for social care. Yet, so far, the Government have | :48:05. | :48:10. | |
been silent. They haven't made any commitment to make funds available | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
in 2017. To support adult social care. I'd like to give them an | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
opportunity today, and would happily give way to public ministers at this | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
stage if they are prepared to clarify this point. Willard the | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
Government make available additional funds to ease the burden on adult | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
social care, which will lead to a better better services. I seek | :48:35. | :48:44. | |
clarity on whether additional funds would be made available, because if | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
funding isn't available the STP will fail, and failed miserably. If we | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
really want a transparent process, and improved services, I suggest we | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
move forward people like myself and other colleagues are at least made | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
aware of what are in the plans. We need assurances that the resources | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
will be able to stabilise local authorities in any services before | :49:14. | :49:20. | |
we move on to transformation. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
take this opportunity to welcome the new ministerial team to their | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
places, but also to welcome the shadow secretary of state. But can I | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
request a more constructive debate in future on health care. And not to | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
talk about cuts, when she knows perfectly well... She knows | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
perfectly well that this government is putting an extra 10 billion a | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
year into the NHS by 2020, that is not a cut. That is 10 billion extra | :49:51. | :50:03. | |
of taxpayer's money. So please could you not mislead people by talking | :50:04. | :50:05. | |
about cuts. And as also she won those, who party did not commit to | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
spending anything like that... I don't think an honourable member | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
would try to mislead another, it's not a word we would use. | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
I did not mean to use that word. Perhaps you could clarify, when she | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
referred to the 22 billion shortfall that was set out in the analysis | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
whether who party is now planning to make up that, and if so, where will | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
they find the money from? That was not clear in her comments. I moved | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
on because ice is really believe we need a far more constructive debate | :50:37. | :50:47. | |
about the real challenge the NHS faces and how to improve the care it | :50:48. | :50:49. | |
provides row constituents. The NHS is under pressure. No one here is | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
denying that. I know as well as anyone. My grandmother spent five of | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
the last six months of her life in hospital, has the system been better | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
she would not have been there. We know people are living longer with | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
multiple conditions. Around 70% of NHS spending goes on long term | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
conditions. Treatments are fast a wider and more expensive than they | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
were in the past. Patients expect far more of the NHS. The NHS should | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
not constantly be criticised as is often the case, it is seriously | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
rising to the challenge, from forming thousands of operations and | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
patients are seen every day. The response from its staff and | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
incidents like that, there are tens of thousands more doctors and nurses | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
working in the NHS. Skilled staff don't come overnight. Training takes | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
years. There is a lot being done to address the pressures on the | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
workforce and none of this should be overlooked. | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
Though it is also costly. Can I ask us to focus on talking about how the | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
NHS rises to the challenges it faces as well as making sure that it does | :51:57. | :52:02. | |
so in a financially sustainable way. To do that we don't have a blank | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
sheet of paper. There was a five-year forward being published in | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
2014. I have asked questions about what was happening to drive forward | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
the view at the pace and scale that was needed. The STP is a vital part | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
of the process. These STP plans across the country are about putting | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
that five-year review into practice. They are doing so in a really | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
important way, looking at the place, the whole population, bringing | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
together diversity organisations across the NHS. Organisations that | :52:38. | :52:45. | |
are often, really in the same room. Organisations that have come | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
together but have literally not spoken. This is really, really | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
important. It is putting public health at the core of the future | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
plans for the NHS. And looking not just a treatment, but how the | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
population can be healthier. How we can reduce health inequalities. The | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
final thing I'll say is can I urge all colleagues to do as I am going | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
to do, and make sure that the STP in your area rises to the challenges | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
and delivers the care that we all want for operations in future. | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. In a recent report to my local health and | :53:21. | :53:28. | |
well-being board in relation to the sustainability transformation plans | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
the state of that was a growing concern that one of the most | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
powerful ways to achieve changes through services working together | :53:36. | :53:37. | |
across entire communities and pathways of care. To find ways to | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
close the gaps between where we are now, and where we need to be in the | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
future. I think this was the hope of many people who written to me on | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
this matter. And I really do appreciate the time they've taken to | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
share their concerns, but I can them little comfort. In my area the | :53:57. | :54:04. | |
footprint is an area in Cheshire and Merseyside not in the Liverpool city | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
region. That was determined unilaterally by the Government | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
structures and it's regrettable. So the process got off to the wrong | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
start. A contact from local political leaders suggesting that | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
were dismissed. That act was compound did, and has compounded the | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
problem. The very people the NHS should be consulting are those | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
people, leaders of councils, local community is, local councils who are | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
democratically elected representatives in those areas. It | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
is all the more disappointing given that there is a council leader whose | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
responsibility for health and social care, the health and social care | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
brief across the city region, but it's more than disappointing. It's | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
bizarre. Especially when local governments are supposed to be a | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
significant partner of the NHS. The Government has pushed integration | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
nor end but it seems more in theory than in practice. You can hardly | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
find a press release without mention it, but many are in the same | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
situation as mine. People are being excluded. There is no doubt about | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
that. And I've laid emphasis on this particular issue because it goes to | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
the heart of the willingness of the NHS to step out of its self-imposed, | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
Bruichladdich mindset it seems to be in. Worryingly, there appears to be | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
a novelist pathological inability to realise it. | :55:34. | :55:40. | |
think, you are on the 20th century, not the 20th century. The reality | :55:41. | :55:56. | |
is, the Democratic lack of accountability in the NHS, certainly | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
on a local level leads to an inability to recognise that in | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
setting the terms of engagement you must do so before decisions are | :56:05. | :56:12. | |
made, and not after. As far as I'm concerned, Mr Speaker, the | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
Government are telling us that all is well. That you've poured loads of | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
money into the NHS. It is just a question of better use of it, but | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
the German spent 40% more per head on GDP run we do, and 25% more | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
across the European Union. But people take that with a big pinch of | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
salt. They are seeing waiting lists grow longer, access to a GP is | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
becoming difficult, waiting times in A growing by the day and ongoing | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
industrial disputes with junior doctors. GP led commissioning | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
services are starting the process of rationing and so it goes on. We need | :56:52. | :56:59. | |
an NHS which has the consent of our community. We need an NHS that links | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
in with the community and are deprived via the plans will turn out | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
to be neither sustainable or transformational. It sends the | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
message that the NHS is not safe in Tory hands. Mr Speaker, I just want | :57:14. | :57:21. | |
to declare an interest as a registered nurse before I speak, but | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
I welcome this debate this afternoon. STP is only really | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
important issue. They have huge potential of transforming care at a | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
local level bringing in social care, bringing in third sector | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
organisations. The RE huge opportunity and not one we want to | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
get wrong. However, because many of these 44 STP 's have not shared or | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
consulted on the plans there is suspicion rightly or wrongly that | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
these STP 's are an excuse to bring in cuts or to breach financial | :57:55. | :57:59. | |
deficits. I welcome the Minister's thoughts on this and his signal that | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
consultation win happen. But it isn't happening at the moment and | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
this is part of the problem. It enables those who want to perpetrate | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
this myth and fear that this is all about cuts to allow them some | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
breathing space. In my area, for example, we fall into the Sussex and | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
East Surrey STP. They have not published their STP. They make great | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
claims to be working with GPs, and health watch, but no one I know, and | :58:30. | :58:34. | |
certainly no local MPs have been involved in any discussions about | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
the process. I'm very disappointed that some of our key committee | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
groups, such as a senior forums, families for autism and many other | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
groups have not been consulted on this STP. It is right that STPs | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
should submit their plans to NHS England to make sure it's a | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
coordinated approach across the country, but it is vital that there | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
is time in the process for consultation and I'm worried that | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
there is only a short space of time after October for this to happen. | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
However, what I will say to the doom mongers trying to instil fear into | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
my constituency is that if current investment is anything to go on I am | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
optimistic about what an STP will plug. | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
My constituency does not have a hospital, but we are seeing huge | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
investment by this government. ?480 million on a redevelopment of the | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
Royal Sussex County Hospital, ?58 million promised to go to Eastbourne | :59:39. | :59:42. | |
District General Hospital and a new multi-million pound is radiotherapy | :59:43. | :59:48. | |
seeds in Eastbourne. A new dialysis unit in deliberately so that | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
patients don't have to travel to Brighton for three times a week | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
dialysis. Working in Eastbourne to develop a new state of the art GP | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
practice surgery in Eastbourne. A new cancer centre in Sussex. I could | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
go on. Huge investment, new services, vital treatment for local | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
patients. But with all this investment, white are people so | :00:12. | :00:17. | |
worried about cuts? Despite an increase of ?10 billion a year in | :00:18. | :00:24. | |
funding the NHS does have to deliver ?22 billion of savings. My | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
constituents know there's an increasing demand for services, 6% a | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
year. They know more treatments are available that are costly and they | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
know that there are more conditions that can be treated. | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
There are concerns that we have not tackled wastage in the NHS such as | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
that of the Chief Executive of the troubled mental health trust who was | :00:45. | :00:53. | |
offered as a new job instead of being investigated for the many | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
hundreds of deaths that happened in her previous role. | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
I thank her for giving way. In order to be efficient and effective the | :01:01. | :01:08. | |
NHS must stop the creation of these jobs that are not helpful with | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
patients being heard in this process but executives ahead in terms of | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
giving new projects and new offices. Absolutely. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :01:20. | :01:29. | |
hope I'm in a position to assist some of the members who may feel | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
they have in the dark are confused by reporters in their SDP 's. | :01:34. | :01:50. | |
--STPs. Like most NHS documents it is written that style of language | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
that makes it difficult for the ordinary public to understand. For | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
Northwest London this is not a process that has mushroomed | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
overnight as has been the case generally that has been developed | :02:04. | :02:13. | |
over four years. We have fired shipping a healthier future since | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
the middle of 2012. That is simply morphed into this. What did shipping | :02:18. | :02:33. | |
a healthier future mean? --Shaping? It meant to hospitals will be | :02:34. | :02:41. | |
downsized and for accident and emergency is would lose that | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
effective services. What is clear would be the transformation into | :02:45. | :02:54. | |
SDPs an initial anguish was unless we implement these cuts then we will | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
go bankrupt. That language is not good and very well with a 2 million | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
people affected in west London minors. The language changed and was | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
all about care. I'm pleased that the honesty is back in the system and | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
sister very much about money. My own hospital trust is a very important | :03:16. | :03:23. | |
and prestigious trust called Cammack Imperial is over ?50 million in | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
deficit this year alone. And the CCG is a flat-lining in funding. The | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
only possible justification for major cuts in acute care is because | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
social care greater care in primary care will be increased. How that is | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
possible with budgets and best standing still I really don't know. | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
The other interesting factor is the delays over those times. We had this | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
proposal the middle of 2012 and a slight revision and 70,013 and then | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
silence and I have lost count of the number of times I've been promised | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
that a full business case will be published. I act as an unofficial | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
shop steward for the 11th Labour MPs in the region. We were told it would | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
be next Tuesday the role coming in from the recess today but it has has | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
been put off until at least after the New Year. Moreover, the plan has | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
now been becomes so open Realty and difficult to achieve this split -- | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
and has been split into. It has become unwieldy. We do not know when | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
the proposals will be published but it has only been taken outside of | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
the process. It is beyond the five-year horizon and nothing will | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
happen until 2022. I'm delighted that the demolition ball is not | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
going into Charing Cross that period of time but in the meantime the | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
uncertainty and the lack of support for the hospital this morning. I see | :05:03. | :05:13. | |
these are about cuts in acute services before the compensatory | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
services and for that reason members should be extremely concerned about | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
them and extremely worried about them and I'm happy to share my pain | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
and knowledge of the subject of members wish to hear that. Can I | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
just say that the person after the next speaker will be down to three | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
minutes. This is to get everybody in. But two things I think we need | :05:36. | :05:48. | |
to kneel before we go any further. I listened to the Fidel Castro like | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
monologue of this shadow Secretary of State. He refused to take an | :05:52. | :06:00. | |
intervention -- she refused to take an intervention. When you consider | :06:01. | :06:11. | |
that my party has been in government the longest giving the existence of | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
the National Health Service, frankly have this Conservative Party wanted | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
to privatise a national health service we would have done it by now | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
and I think that is a very clear point that we want to make. We are | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
all, on the side of the House, as on that side, champions of the NHS and | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
determinedly and doggedly trying to ensure that our constituents get the | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
very best of health care. I'm slightly incredulous as well by | :06:39. | :06:48. | |
wanting to have a penny that the front bench, the opposition front | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
bench, advocated this afternoon. They want to see greater | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
transparency but as soon as it is a powerful idea, they say everybody's | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
going to die and rackets is coming back. It is regrettable that rather | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
like a snail those who are trying to think about changes we tracked | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
further into the shell. An idea for the minister, and I hope Madam | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
Deputy Speaker this will not be ruled out of order, is that everyone | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
to improve sustainability in health care and health service should be | :07:24. | :07:33. | |
taken advantage nursing to be free Brexit world and having in | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
procurement health service and the procurement of British made digest | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
foods and milk. That would certainly add to sustainability. The problem | :07:45. | :07:56. | |
to my constituency regarding the Westminster hospital which is | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
causing enormous concern amongst my constituents and it is a popular and | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
useful committee hospital. I family support and champion the provision | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
and continuation of our community hospitals which provide a very | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
useful spoken in health care framework providing the transition | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
from acute sector with is often pressure and beds right through to | :08:25. | :08:26. | |
hopefully patients returning to their home. I have asked the | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
department to think about this, often consultation is used as a word | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
when a means information. Very often scenarios are not put forward in the | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
public are not stupid. They need to north the news -- need to know they | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
choose this option what happens here in the features that option what | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
happens there. -- if they choose that option what happens there. I'm | :08:56. | :09:03. | |
keeping an open mind about the plans for health care across North Dorset. | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
We cannot just close the door to innovative thinking. And the need to | :09:08. | :09:15. | |
meet modern clinical demands. Patient care must go first and that | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
cannot be offence in order to avoid change and challenge in service | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
provision. But I do hope that anchored in the Dorset plan for | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
health care that is a very clear role and a very clear place for | :09:30. | :09:38. | |
committee hospitals. The so-called transformation process has been | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
going on in fits and starts. It has been going on in Staffordshire since | :09:44. | :09:52. | |
2014 and by 2000 20 and 2021 the deficit and social care has been put | :09:53. | :10:03. | |
out in the draft SDP. The menu being cooked out behind-the-scenes is | :10:04. | :10:05. | |
already being picked out in practice. -- dished out. It is being | :10:06. | :10:20. | |
driven by cost cutting. Even if short-term it increases the pressure | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
on pavements and our local Royal Stoke University hospital when the | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
trolleys queueing up in corridors at accident and emergency. Before the | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
summer the closure of Ward four at a local hospital took away a safe | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
place of discharge for patients with mental health problems and the | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
viability of drug and alcohol and other services as well as respite in | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
rehab facilities are threatened. Last month we learned the both wards | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
at Cheadle Community Hospital would be closed further affecting | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
discharges while social services struggle to Corp. Children's ward at | :10:59. | :11:12. | |
Stafford was closed and Swinton will be freezing closures in spring. The | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
press is an will continue to multiply. While the north and west | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
looks to Stoke, the South and West looks to Birmingham and the East | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
Derby. What is on the cards now is a countywide merger of everything and | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
that monolith with no centre of a Navy is being called and accountable | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
care organisation. But care has been anything but accountable and | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
transformation so far. Not least the paper 's senior executives are | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
raking off this process. This salary of ?160,000 a year for the four-day | :12:00. | :12:06. | |
week and her deputy is 172,000 for five days. The late financier is on | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
244,000 a year. Added to other people and 131,000 at the | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
Staffordshire and the annual bill for the five drunken state and | :12:20. | :12:31. | |
?46,000. -- 846 thousand pounds for the five of them. I have two | :12:32. | :12:43. | |
hospitals which serve my constituency in the counties of | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
Chester and later in hospital which is actually in my constituency. I | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
know that there are going to be pressures on the hospital and the | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
CCG are indicating that they may well cut funding to that hospital | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
and that is despite an increase in funding to the four local CCG 's in | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
my constituency. I had was some surprise the speech from the shadow | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
Secretary of State because the big pressures that are coming in | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
Cheshire at the cause of the slash and burn tactics adopted by Labour | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
in Wales when it comes to health. It is doing as I say, not as I do. If | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
you look at what the Labour Party have done in Wales over the border | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
that is impacting on health services and Cheshire they have cut the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
budget in health and it is not even kept pace with inflation. They have | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
downgraded a huge number of hospitals and they have closed | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
almost all the community hospitals and all of this and indeed maternity | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
services they were suggesting that some patients would need to drive | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
for over two hours to access maternity wards. One of those | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
hospitals would have been the Countess of Chester which would have | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
served a huge rural hinterland and is not in Wales. I take no lessons | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
from the party opposite when it comes to transformation plans when | :14:14. | :14:21. | |
you see what Labour actually does and is doing means cuts in Wales and | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
downgrading the services and worse access to care than currently is a | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
position in England. In relation to the opportunities that come out of | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
this transformation programme, I very much agree with what was said | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
by the member of Parliament for Central Ayrshire. There are huge | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
local opportunities. There are the opportunities to put in tailor-made | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
plans that will suit local populations and particularly in | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
Cheshire where we have large rural populations the opportunity to | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
deliver services more in the primary care setting is a very real | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
opportunity and one that should be welcomed. | :15:08. | :15:17. | |
I welcome the fact that there are changes in the budget which will go | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
to local authorities to help with the social care budget. To that | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
extent the involvement of the local authorities, Cheshire West and | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
Cheshire East in the transformation plans, and particularly the | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
integration of social care in relation to health services provides | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
a very real opportunity that I hope the plans, the STP in Cheshire will | :15:44. | :15:51. | |
cease. Thank you, before I commence I need to register an interest. My | :15:52. | :15:57. | |
husband is a nonexecutive member of the board Chelsea NHS Trust. I have | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
had a large mailbag about today's debate. I want to be that way. We | :16:04. | :16:14. | |
provide good, appropriate services, accessible, timely and free at the | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
point of entry. We want to address the deficit and improve services. | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
Those who were given the NHS care deeply about its future, and they | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
want to be able to do their best for their patience. Like my honourable | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
friend for Hammersmith, my constituency is, the people in my | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
construes the deeply concerned about the future of charring Cross | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
Hospital. A large General Hospital with a busy A The hospital's | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
future has been uncertain for at least five years since the north | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
west London NHS first proposed closing the A there and in four | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
other hospitals. People are worried about travel times from Chiswick to | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
the nearest AMD. About the inevitable downgrading of other | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
services on that site. Has the capacity of neighbouring hospitals | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
to do with that pressure. In the context of the STP, it is happening | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
at a time when we have ?1 billion funding gap in north-west London, | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
500 beds are proposed to close. A 40% cut proposed in face-to-face | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
consultations, and this is against the background of rising population, | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
increased health needs and in the context of our services, currently, | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
missing many targets. And social care cuts are, again, very crucial | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
to this house how can STP 's have any credibility of the NHS cannot | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
plan nationally? If they are funded and controlled in a different way | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
and being cuts and cut and cut, the Northwest London STP proposes | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
cutting beds that we clearly all want treatment. We want it less | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
dependent on spending nights in hospital beds and a reduction on | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
acute beds is inevitable. With changes in modern health provision, | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
but 500 beds is a staggering number in west London where the population | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
is rising and ageing. IM and by responding to members opposite about | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
the funding gap in the NHS. The NHS wouldn't have a funding crisis of | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
this country match the health funding per head of similar | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
countries. The Kings fund shows the UK public purse spends a smaller | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
proportion than the original, Japan and the Netherlands. If those | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
countries can follow their health in this way, so can the UK. | :18:50. | :18:56. | |
Firstly I'd like to place on record my thanks to the gym and does work | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
of the NHS staff up and down the country, particularly in my | :19:01. | :19:08. | |
constituency. -- thanks to the NHS staff up and down the country. They | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
do a great job over the last five or six years when our particular health | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
economy has been in the national spotlight. | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
Of course, we have had our own sustainability and transformation | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
plan, really, since 2012 will be just Russian administration of the | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
NHS Foundation Trust. It was an extremely difficult time, really | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
challenging. I want to draw out two points of that. The first was made | :19:34. | :19:41. | |
by the member for North Norfolk, the vital importance of consultation at | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
every level. Don't leave people in the dark. There is nothing like as a | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
jewellers like less than finding leaked reports, things that they are | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
supposed to know about -- nothing my constituents like less. They will no | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
doubt be plans that arise anger and hostility but it is better to do it | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
in public and deal with it properly. The second point is stick to what | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
you agree. What they came out with in Staffordshire was not what we | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
wanted. It was far short of what we wanted, although it was better than | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
the minimum first proposed, largely as a result of a local campaign. | :20:20. | :20:26. | |
But, we have just had the temporary closure of our children's emergency | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
centre which was specifically committed to, in the administrator | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
's proposals, only opens a year and two months ago. It must be brought | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
back immediately, or as soon as possible. Which means in the next | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
few weeks. This was a commitment, it has been closed temporarily on | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
safety grounds. Commitments must be met. The final point I want to make | :20:52. | :20:56. | |
is, following on from what others have said, we spend too little of | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
our GDP on health. The Economist this | :21:02. | :21:14. | |
week has had an article which made it quite clear. Even the Economist | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
is saying we need to spend a higher proportion of GDP. That means | :21:19. | :21:20. | |
raising the money, and it means raising it to higher rates of | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
national insurance in the long term. My honourable friend and I wrote an | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
article about this recommending hypothecated tax and I think that is | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
an important way forward. I believe the STP system offers a good | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
opportunity to go forward and make necessary changes around health and | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
social care, but STPs which don't look beyond 2020, at the percentage | :21:40. | :21:43. | |
is spent on health and social care will not succeed. Thank you. The | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
Nuffield trust has said that the sustainability and transformation | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
plans could lead to fundamental changes in the shape of care | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
services, but as we've heard in this debate despite the significance of | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
the brand is being little opportunity for patients, the | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
public, and adjust for Parliament to scrutinise them. The BBC has | :22:06. | :22:12. | |
received draft plans which propose changes to AMD and GP care. The | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
Nuffield trust which examined them also received the same popular | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
changes and are questioning the role of community cottage hospitals. | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
Members opposite have been referring to that today. These are members | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
that many people are concerned about the lack of consultation. In Greater | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
Manchester we have the devolution document, taking charge, which was | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
published last year it's been used as the basis for the STP in Greater | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
Manchester. It outlines the need for integrated health and social care, | :22:44. | :22:45. | |
cancer, mental health and other services. Our partnership believes | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
that made significant efforts to reach out to local people with the | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
taking charge document. But when I looked at it the the number it | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
reached its quite a small proportion of the two wins a half million | :23:00. | :23:05. | |
population of Greater Manchester. Information booklets, 200 metres, | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
600 people completed a survey. We have 2.5 million people living in | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
Greater Manchester. The document doesn't include detailed plans of | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
what would be changed cuts that will be made. It outlines savings | :23:18. | :23:26. | |
totalling ?1.5 billion from things like prevention, reform of the NHS | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
Trust, productivity services and joint working, but no details of how | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
it's going to be done. The board is now finding a number of gaps that | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
need addressing in the delivery of the nine must use in the five-year | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
forward view. It's my view that decisions about how to deliver those | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
mass tattoos, must have a significant impact on local | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
services. -- must dos. I'm concerned that the Government is passing the | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
buck to local authorities and NHS trusts leaving them to make plans | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
without sustainable funding. In Greater Manchester, the Minister | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
will probably know that there revised down the size of the gap to | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
1.7 billion, that's still a very significant financial challenge for | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
the area. There are plans to centralise radiology, what will it | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
mean? Will services" smack these are the sort of decisions that local | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
people are entitled to know about before FTPs are signed. -- these are | :24:29. | :24:35. | |
the sort of decisions that people are entitled to know about before | :24:36. | :24:45. | |
STPs are signed off. Thank you. I follow on from some very hard work | :24:46. | :24:53. | |
from committed campaigners on health issues, particularly my honourable | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
friend from Staffordshire who has championed the NHS. I want to thank | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
all those NHS staff across the entry that work incredibly hard, day in, | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
day out, and don't get the thanks they deserve. Now, compared with | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
some members in this house I've actually had an incredibly good | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
range of consultation exercises with my commissioning group information | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
to the STPs. They having gauged with MPs, not just in Bath and North East | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
Somerset where our hospital is, but across Wiltshire and Swindon two. If | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
the ministerial team are looking at Best practice examples, then I would | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
be more than happy to host them in Bath and North East Somerset, and | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
the STP group to show them the work they are doing to engage their early | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
across the entire patch. I have incredibly pleased to be speaking on | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
today's debate because in Berkeley have a range of very difficult niche | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
concerns in relation to health. Not just the population, but we have not | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
just the one in five children who live in poverty but the high as | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
levels of alcohol and substance misuse in the south-west. That gets | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
glossed over. I think STPs will be Friday Freeman to tackle those | :26:11. | :26:12. | |
issues which haven't necessarily been tackled before. -- provides the | :26:13. | :26:23. | |
framework to tackle. I am the think that actually those people that need | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
more should get more, and unfortunately, the NHS hasn't been | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
able to provide that finding it absolutely needs to reform going | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
forward. There has been a huge amount of misconception and a lot of | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
scaremongering. Unfortunately this is harming what is quite likely to | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
be an incredibly positive policy which is being acquired for a number | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
of years. In Bath we want to work with Swindon and Wiltshire through | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
the new transformation and sustainability plans and work with | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
our neighbours in other areas as well. I would like to find out from | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
the minister if this is going to be a constantly evolving project. | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
Because as devolution and that a brand the UK sometimes these plans | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
will need to be changed in order to make sure they fit with the new | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
footprints as devolution comes into force. In these debates it is | :27:16. | :27:23. | |
important to stand up what the commissioning group has been asking | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
for. I would be failing if I didn't say that this year finances are OK. | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
Next year but it did finances are expect to be difficult. Without | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
funding to match some of those plans I think everyone in this house has | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
agreed that we need to make sure the funding does match the requirements | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
of those local communities. To understand the significance of the | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
Government's creation of the sustainability transformation plans | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
we need to be aware of what's gone before to consider the extent of the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
financial crisis. In 2012 we have and social care act was passed | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
paving the way the privatisation and removing the duty of the Secretary | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
of State to provide an secure a comprehensive health service in | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
England. I believe these STPs are a key part of the Government's plan to | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
drive through privatisation. I will give way. Will she agree with me | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
that the concern in our part of the world is that the word | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
sustainability is all about financial scalability and not about | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
sustainability and services? I think the honourable member has hit the | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
nail on the head there. A report on Monday's Liverpool Echo reports an | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
anticipated ?1 billion deficit by 2012. It talks of a need to reduce | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
demand, and reduce costs. All very nice ambitions but the idea of | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
trying to reduce demand just to plug a funding gap is the wrong way to | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
deal with planning a sensible has service. The STP also says that | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
there is an appetite for hostel reconsideration, and appetite with | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
whom? The existing setup is unaffordable. That wrap the hospital | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
reconfiguration. There was a problem with commas in | :29:10. | :29:18. | |
the document, so who knows what they mean. There will be cuts to staff, | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
and cuts to hospitals. I will indeed give way. Thank you, could this | :29:23. | :29:32. | |
perhaps be a way in which this is done by stealth. Clearly, there is | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
an increase in demand but this demand is being spread rather than | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
being targeted at localities. My honourable friend is absolutely | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
right. It goes on to say that the shape and size of hospital beds will | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
need to be considered, there is a real threat to the number of beds we | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
have available. I am concerned would be often in my constituency. | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
One of the radical poses as the major of four major hospitals in the | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
area. Let's be clear, the STPs are | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
vehicles for cuts. They are being devised in sequence hence the need | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
for a local newspaper to leak details and they are being delivered | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
at arms length just as the 2012 health and social care act allows | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
him to. He can shrug his shoulders and say it's nothing to do with me. | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
This is not good enough. The Government must publish the STPs | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
involved. It must provide time and resources for meaningful | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
concentration with care workers, the public and representatives and it's | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
much provide the funding the NHS needs all these STPs will approve | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
the final piece in the privatisation jigsaw. We will see our hospital | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
sold up, the break-up of services and patients having to find their | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
way around a fragmented and dwindling system and our | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
hard-working staff would receive a jobs moving to private providers and | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
their patrons and conditions being undermined. | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
The public knows what the government is up to never had such a big | :31:06. | :31:13. | |
mailbag on this issue. I believe it is time a further government to hold | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
up its hands and the bidders had been rumbled and end the | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
privatisation of the National Health Service. We have all become used to | :31:23. | :31:31. | |
the disdain of the party opposite for our National Health Service. Now | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
we have the reduction of sustainability and transformation | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
plans, cigarette brands that seek to bring unjustifiable reforms to | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
cash-strapped hospitals. Instead of being given the funds they need the | :31:46. | :31:55. | |
ask to make efficiencies. -- secret plans. The audacity to make | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
hospitals pay the price for this by threatening them with closure of | :32:02. | :32:07. | |
reduction of acute services is the final act of treachery in a plan to | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
totally decimate an NHS. So Shields is part of an alien time and we are. | :32:13. | :32:21. | |
-- part of a Nadir in time and we are. --An area in Tyne and Wear. | :32:22. | :32:36. | |
Make no mistake that the plans there are about cuts and nothing to do | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
with transforming our NHS for the better. The NHS has been set an | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
impossible task I this government and the endgame is to see the NHS | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
and private hands. The government has said that the national STP | :32:51. | :32:59. | |
submissions for NHS England are for local use and there are no plans to | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
publish them which once again puts the onus on our local hospitals so | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
the government does not have to deal with the flak. I would rather not | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
give way because a lot of people waiting to speak. I was born in | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
South Tyneside hospital and I am the local MP for the area and I have not | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
seen a single plan, not even the governors in my own hospital have | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
let alone the people of South Shields police services these could | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
devastate. I believe the timetable believes this autumn -- begin this | :33:36. | :33:44. | |
autumn. I am extremely alarmed at the lack of accountability and | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
transparency with which these plans are being pushed through. The simply | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
no time at the consultation and I would like to make a plea to all NHS | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
leaders to not be complicit and to stand up for the hospitals and | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
communities that they sell. The government have no mandate for a | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
radical reconfiguration of an NHS which could involve the closure of | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
accident and emergency and acute services up and down the country. | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
Last week the Prime Minister called an NHS leaders to order them to stop | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
any hospital managers are closures that risk causing local protest. | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
Madam Speaker that is already a protest in my constituency. Before | :34:23. | :34:32. | |
entering the Commons award for 33 years in the NHS and Sark on a | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
day-to-day basis the service provides from GPs to work on leading | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
research and development. I feel that with 80% of hospitals on debt | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
and an ageing population and waiting times lengthening for cancer | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
treatment and underfunding for social care and staff shortages at | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
local hospitals and a future where collaboration with the European | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
Union is unclear we should know at this time she'll commitment to our | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
NHS this time of need and give at the funding it deserves to succeed | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
for all patients. At the NHS sustainability and transformation | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
plans did not clearly addresses issues. The STPs have been shrouded | :35:15. | :35:24. | |
in secrecy and runner-up behind closed doors. There has been no | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
public consultation on the staggering lack of evidence to show | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
that it will deliver the reductions and improvements that the government | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
promises. It will be untried and untested and will come at an | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
unimaginable cost to patients. If it is found not to be the right path to | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
pursue. As an MP in Greater Manchester they introduction of | :35:47. | :35:58. | |
Metro mayor made bold promises, including a health. She mentioned | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
local government and wonder she's aware in North West London, both the | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
London Borough of Ealing and Hackney and Fulham have not signed up to the | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
STP because it threatens the closure was Ealing and Charing Cross | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
hospitals. The secret stuff is anywhere including local government. | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
I thank for that intervention. I think intervention highlights the | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
issues with the secrecy surrounding the STPs anti-attempts of local | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
authorities and the bold regions to do what this was to be doing and in | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
Greater Manchester deal with the bolt health issues. -- devolved | :36:44. | :36:52. | |
regions and devolved health issues. This was at the front of the citizen | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
devolution act. STPs Would need to consult with metro mayors but they | :37:00. | :37:08. | |
jeopardise the economy of their powers. The British medical Journal | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
said it might risk they metro mayors pose is becoming a rallying point to | :37:16. | :37:25. | |
service reconfiguration. If the STPs to be effective councillors and | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
committees must be the very heart of the planning process and health and | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
well-being boys will be an integral part of the process. They're the | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
only place where local political, clinical and professional readers | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
come together and they will be pivotal in driving change. But they | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
also seem to have been put on the waiting list for consultation. -- | :37:44. | :37:49. | |
leaders. As with the disastrous health and social care act overseen | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
by the former panellist and no former MP for Whitney these | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
proposals are taking us on a journey to another calamitous reorganisation | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
of the NHS. It is now a necessity that the government abandons this | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
timetable and scheduling of such a major rescheduling package. Maybe | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
like the former pollster now is the time to step down and take stock. I | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
am calling on the government and the Secretary of State for Health to go | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
back and be considered not only the time frame but also the proposals in | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
general and have a full and frank public consultation line for | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
transparency and debate at the local and national level to take place. | :38:29. | :38:37. | |
This is been a high-quality debate and I would like to start by | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
welcoming the honourable member for Ludlow to his new role. He will | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
forgive me for not knowing how many trusts precisely ended last year in | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
deficit. It is 80% last year and that is a context in which these | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
plans are being discussed. This means that the public will rightly | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
be cynical about proposals, particularly if they are presented | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
for the final time. The minister underplayed the development when he | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
said they were simply ideas. If that is all they are let us see them now. | :39:09. | :39:25. | |
There have been MPs for several areas. I'm sorry I will not be able | :39:26. | :39:34. | |
to make reference to more of the contributions made by members | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
because of the time pressure. Let's get down to brass tacks of what this | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
is really about. It is another reorganisation of the NHS only this | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
time it is being done behind closed doors. It is not just a | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
reorganisation, it is also an admission as a free do. Already know | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
that they got the last round wrong. We do not need to be persuaded on | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
the side of the House of that is of benefit to having a more localised | :40:00. | :40:09. | |
strategic NHS because we supported the government 's decision to scrap | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
strategic health authorities. But unlike them the is no for STPs and | :40:14. | :40:24. | |
no scrutiny. -- most strategic basis. -- no strategic basis. This | :40:25. | :40:34. | |
is happening without the involvement of patients and clinicians and | :40:35. | :40:43. | |
carers and physicians and staff. It means it involving them from day one | :40:44. | :40:46. | |
and the bigger the change the better it is to start early without | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
consultation. In my own area it states that the Cheshire and | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
Merseyside hospitals will be reconfigured and consolidated with | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
less sites with less hospitals and less doctors and no wonder that the | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
government don't want a doc about it. Many have talked about the | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
importance of consultation and we know that attempts to make local | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
health services without engaging the public and establish local | :41:19. | :41:20. | |
supporters in early stage will fail. That is not only my view, this is | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
what the Secretary of State himself said. The success of STPs wool | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
depend on having an open process that involves local currency | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
partners and carers and physicians and patients and local government | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
and this is just not happened so far. Not only are the public locked | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
out of this process they cannot even find out what is happening. I have | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
submitted a request for copies of the plan submitted in June for 44 | :41:52. | :42:01. | |
STPs and not one has been submitted. Many have simply refused to reply | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
using the exemption that they are intended for future publication. We | :42:05. | :42:14. | |
have STPs seen one thing as the saying something is about the plant | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
will be published. The wonder people are concerned about what is with | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
them. Plans were about fundamental changes to local health services | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
have been sitting on the desk of the Secretary of State since June but it | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
will not release them. Surely in the interest of transparency we should | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
be publicly made available now. There's nothing wrong in principle | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
with the idea of of local partners working to transform local health | :42:39. | :42:40. | |
services but that is everything wrong in doing so without | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
transparency and public involvement and clear lines of accountability. I | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
welcome the member of Warrington South to the front bench. I will ask | :42:48. | :42:57. | |
when he was he will now commit to dropping the secrecy and listen to | :42:58. | :43:05. | |
the concerns of patients. I would also ask him to clarify his will the | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
plans because when responding to a point made earlier he said plans | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
will not go ahead if they don't involve mental health but another | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
answer at the responses matter for local health services. So which is? | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
Who will get the final say? Will be the government of the local STPs? -- | :43:23. | :43:34. | |
or the local STPs? Council leaders and officers are queueing up to | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
express concerns and we had from in Wembley for a brutal about this. -- | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
we had from the Honourable member for brittle. --Bootle. The | :43:45. | :43:54. | |
Conservative leader of Warwickshire County Council said that local | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
government was being left out called are not consulted. Kenny tell me why | :43:58. | :44:05. | |
council additions party are finding themselves this process? Members | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
made the point that much of the money put aside for transformation | :44:11. | :44:12. | |
has been spent in deficit is so let us not pretend what STPs can | :44:13. | :44:28. | |
achieve. It should not be overestimated. Nigel Edwards says I | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
have been visiting lot of STPs a nobody have spoken to is confident | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
they can reduce the financial gap. Given the warnings we already had | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
other governments with the health service on the chance they face | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
architect continued to insist on a possible targets and unrealistic | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
timetables? And sewer of continued to insist on a possible targets and | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
unrealistic timetables? And Sue the response will and again that the | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
government is investing ?10 million more in the NHS but we know that is | :44:56. | :44:58. | |
an illusion. They're the living less than half the mass was in town | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
chronically underfunding social care and while the NHS has had its | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
biggest deficit in history under the stewardship of this government the | :45:07. | :45:08. | |
Secretary of State has tried to convince is that not only will the | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
maintain services at the current level but they will somehow do more. | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
He is in denial. Virtually every day summit warning is that the NHS is on | :45:19. | :45:25. | |
the brink of collapse. The Executive of NHS said the NHS was slowly | :45:26. | :45:34. | |
deteriorating. It could experience pockets of meltdown. Not one NHS | :45:35. | :45:44. | |
manager believes that the NHS could deliver services are currently does. | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
And these are financially sustainable. Let's end the Charente | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
and openness debate and get to the truth. About the damage caused to | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
their chests by this government. I commend this motion to the House. -- | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
damage caused to the NHS. In these six minutes I've got | :46:03. | :46:14. | |
available to me it's not possible to answer the 40 or so speeches we've | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
heard today. I will pick out two contributions for special mention. | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
The Shadow Secretary of State, as far as I can see, genuinely believes | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
that an organisation that provides care to 45 million people, as a | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
budget of ?100 billion, should not do planning. That really appears to | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
be the view. I also mention the member for a show who made an | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
excellent speech, and she used, in that speech, he word of opportunity | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
around these STPs, that is what they are. She also used a phrase which is | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
very useful, health care systems are about more than buildings. And I | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
think it's very important that as we go forward with this process we | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
think about that and what it means. The health service, Madam Deputy | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
Speaker, is not something that is static. Technology is changing, | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
drugs are changing, expectations are changing. Tomography is changing. It | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
is right that we try and make it evolve, Dodge Rockwood demographics | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
are changing. The NHS is a planning mechanism to put into place a | :47:27. | :47:35. | |
five-year food that was in the -- a five-year review. It needs to be | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
care driven, and it is. And it has to be properly funded and locally | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
driven. Three things. I'm not going to take interventions because I now | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
have five minutes left. In terms of funding, we have put in an extra 10 | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
billion. That is real money. Have they had that money in Wales some of | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
the points raised in this debate would have been quite different. | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
This year the increase in health funding is 4%. In real terms. That's | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
the times the rate of inflation. The real point isn't to do with that. It | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
isn't do with money. However much money this side of the house put in, | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
and however much that harassment say they put in, however much we put in | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
it doesn't take away the need for the health service to be managed | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
effectively and properly so it can approve and innovate. There is a | :48:34. | :48:40. | |
price to these STPs. At the end of it we will have a health service | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
that is more orientated towards primary care. Towards community care | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
where people live which provides better access to GPs, which | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
emphasises prevention more than ad hoc response. Which probably | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
addresses long-term conditions like diabetes. Which does begin to | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
address more quickly the commitments that have been made on mental health | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
and dementia. I say it again. If STPs come back without addressing | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
these things they will not go forward. All of these things, and | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
perhaps the most important one of all of that is the unacceptable gap | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
that exists between health care and social care. That could be breached. | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
That is at the centre of all of this. No, I won't give way. She can | :49:28. | :49:36. | |
come and see me. We will together on the PAC. But it is true to say that | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
if we achieve all of those things they will be lower hospital | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
admissions, there will be more humane and timely discharges. That | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
may save money. But it's not being driven by that process of saving | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
money. It's being driven by the care needs, because it's the right thing | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
to do. I want to talk very quickly about the SDP process itself. We've | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
been told it's a secret process, a Trojan horse for privatisation. But | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
we're not going to consult, well, Madam Deputy Speaker, first of all | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
let's talk about consultation. I fought the member for Suffolk made | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
some good points on the change programmes. The difficulties of | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
change programmes that are not properly consulted with, but we need | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
something to consult on that is reasonably agreed and reasonably | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
stable. If we don't we set expectations running that can't be | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
achieved. In both directions, positive and negative. When the SDP | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
's comeback in October having been signed off they will be consulted | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
on. -- STPs. This document will be in the House of Commons library by | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
the end of this week and describes in detail how members will be | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
consulted with and what we will do. The points made by the member for | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
Chelmsford, no consultation, no engagement takes away the statuary | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
commitments, and the need for configurations to be properly looked | :51:09. | :51:16. | |
at and for nothing to go forward that isn't locally agreed. We were | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
told these plans are secret. They will associate bread that they were | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
announced in December 2015 in the NHS planning guidelines. -- they | :51:25. | :51:32. | |
were so secret. They will associate groups that the websites of the | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
companies that were keeping its egrets, the organisations that were | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
keeping it secret provided information. If we do something in | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
secret in future, it will be better than this. It really well! I want to | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
finish by making this point. The SDP process is complex. It -- the FTP | :51:54. | :52:04. | |
complex. Some plans, they are not adequate will not be preceded within | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
the same way as others. What I say to members in this house is, we need | :52:10. | :52:17. | |
you to engage with... Older! Led to the question now be part As many as | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, 'no'. I think ayes. | :52:21. | :52:29. | |
Eyes-macro. The question is as on the order | :52:30. | :53:44. | |
paper, As many as are of the opinion, say 'aye'. To the contrary, | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
'no'.. If all this. -- law the doors. | :53:47. | :00:54. | |
--Lock the doors. Order. The ayes two 195 the noes to | :00:55. | :06:42. | |
the left 200 and 80. The ayes to the right 195, noes the to the left 200 | :06:43. | :07:02. | |
native. The -- 200 native. -- 280. The noes habit. -- have it. The | :07:03. | :07:17. | |
rushes everybody was to join in this debate. Can I begin please by | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
beginning a very warm welcome to my friend who was sitting here. And | :07:25. | :07:34. | |
what better may I say than the Honourable member who represents | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
Blackpool to deal and respond to this debate about the extension of | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
the tram system through my constituency. I want to make a very | :07:41. | :07:48. | |
clear that this is not a debate about the rights and wrongs are | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
trams and funding. This is very clear in my mind about for the short | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
debate is about. It is about looking what has happened as those tram | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
works have taken over two years to be completed. And looking at what | :08:04. | :08:10. | |
has and deadly been a nightmare for both my residents and my business | :08:11. | :08:22. | |
community. Definitely. And learning the lessons from them so we no | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
longer repeat what has been a whole the unfortunate unacceptable | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
terrible from what has been two years in eight months. I want to | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
make it very clear the planet lived in Nottingham for about 25 years | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
until I was elected in 2010 I use the tram. Personally I think it is a | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
very pleasant and more modern form of public transport so want to make | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
it very clear that I am not against trams. But am against the | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
experiences of so many of my constituents. It costs ?570 million. | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
Unfortunately it was eight months late. And it has been as I say sorry | :09:02. | :09:11. | |
tale. A photograph speaks a million words and so I'm asking people to do | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
my website and follow some of the photographs and tweeting out because | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
those photographs really do show the night may for my constituents. We | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
have to learn the lessons. We are soft to be aware this is often the | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
case that when we do these huge pieces of infrastructure there are | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
many who feel they have suffered incredible pain that actually have | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
an game very much for themselves. So want to start with what I think is a | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
very big problem we have in our society. I think we are also aware | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
that post-referendum this huge swathe in our society that feels | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
they have no voice and they have been disconnected. They feel in | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
short that they are powerless. I'm afraid to say that a large number of | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
my constituents in this particular area feel quite that. And I'm going | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
to put forward and congratulate our Facebook page called the net | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
transport extension group. He will forgive me if I will say he is that | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
ordinary person. He is still but he is actually a rather remarkable | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
person. He set up this Facebook page with real frustration in the face of | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
the tram works. It is no errors that since somewhere in about the 1990s | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
understandably people feel very strongly favour the trams and they | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
want better transport but what we don't like is when people get | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
together and use aliases and do things online and off-line in their | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
campaigning which actually create an atmosphere where people feel that I | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
do not agree with that but I feel I have no voice and I'm not going to | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
get involved in this. When I got a public meeting howled down. People | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
feel as I say powerless and that is what has happened in the run-up to | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
the public inquiry about 2007. I really would urge my honourable | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
friend to look at public enquiries in particular and I am writing with | :11:16. | :11:24. | |
high feel we can make sure that the voices only people generally have. | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
I'm very concerned about some of these online questionnaires. And the | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
fact that people can organising campaign groups can actually abuse | :11:32. | :11:40. | |
social media. When it comes to public enquiries that is no genuine | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
equality. And so what we were left with was this barrage of local | :11:46. | :11:52. | |
authority and the City Council and the borough council and the county | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
council and the people who want to build the tram and they have the | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
ability and resources to employ experts and so sometimes Queens | :12:02. | :12:11. | |
Counsel and they can organise but if you're just about a citizen to be | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
truthful, you often rely on your borough council when dealing with | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
people but nothing like as well prepared with although resources are | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
others have. This is what has come out of this explain to my | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
constituency. Ordinary people living in the streets there were about to | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
be turned up felt they had no voice and had no say. -- dug up. The group | :12:39. | :12:54. | |
now has 1050 members. It is not always pretty and the language is | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
often very fruity and I vigorously dissociate myself some of the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Commons. This is a place where real and genuine or do people come to | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
protest as they saw the committee being dug up and felt completely | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
disenfranchised and so the lies being turned over. Out of this has | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
come much good and 20s been formed. There have been a few romances are | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
lots of ventures and continuing desire to hold people to account. -- | :13:24. | :13:34. | |
friendships have been informed. Ordinary people fill the hole voice | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
and the voices heard a minute to make sure that we plan properly for | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
these huge pieces of infrastructure and is willing to some of the work | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
that the government has embarked on an quite properly so, such as HS2, I | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
am a great fan of it. I stood on platform supporting it. I believe it | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
is supported by the majority people my constituency but those sort of | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
projects, I believe my right honourable friend also has a project | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
of his own constituency so he knows that these pieces of infrastructure | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
must be done properly so let's learn from all these various experiences. | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
If we look a proper planning we have to make it very clear what are the | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
benefits that we seek to achieve. It is obvious that if you extend the | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
tram system in Nottingham into a place like Toton and the other line | :14:26. | :14:37. | |
going to Clifton the ultimate benefit is to provide good public | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
transport for all those people live on the line but also to knitters -- | :14:41. | :14:47. | |
to commuters with park-and-ride and getting people into the city and | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
reduce traffic jams all those things. I have no difficulty with | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
people catching the tram to go to the QVC of the Central college | :14:59. | :15:02. | |
Nottingham University. These are all good things but when you then have a | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
business case often attached these projects we asked spiritually with | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
more care to make sure that some of the big claims that are made are in | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
fact accurate. So the 2011 business said there will be 10,000 jobs | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
created with the extension of the Gnostic tram system. There will be | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
regeneration. Regeneration of Beeston. -- regeneration. -- the | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
Nottingham tram system. I think there may be some hollow | :15:37. | :15:50. | |
laughter from people who are now sitting there in a great time in my | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
constituency with lots of great shops, independent shops. Who are | :15:58. | :16:00. | |
yet to see this regeneration and this transformation. This is a town | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
that was, in effect, strangled by the works. They were meant to last | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
for two years but went on for an extra eight months. We have a shiny | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
new tram, and Heidi Road where my office sits looks good, but is | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
bereft of shoppers. The town centre needs urgent and radical | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
improvement. You would have thought that they were digging at the time, | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
but basically it wasn't. That was a really big, and serious failure. If | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
you are doing these huge pieces of infrastructure then you must do the | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
whole picture so that when the infrastructure is completed in these | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
urban, suburban areas you have what you want, you got the place sorted | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
out. You have a place that can now recover from what has been an | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
extraordinary appearance for people and a damaging experience. I've been | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
talking about business, but for residents, and I minded of course of | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
the residents on lower road and Fletcher Road, two cul-de-sacs that | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
funding major infrastructure, power tools literally by their French | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
door. Not just worry few weeks, month after month, indeed, it became | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
year after year. They had to live through all of that. As I say, I | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
think the photographs really do say it all. Now we've got problems so it | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
goes on. Everything has been dug up and started again. In the planning, | :17:37. | :17:44. | |
I would suggest it is important that little tiny things that seem minor | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
bugs are hugely important, these small details, the stuff of life | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
that really make a difference to the quality of people's life. It makes a | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
difference to whether people feeling gauged with something or totally | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
alienated. Apparently Sky News used to look at my newsletter when I was | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
raging on against these works and the real inconvenience and upset it | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
was causing to my constituents. It seems such a small point, but it was | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
incredibly important to those individuals that they couldn't get | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
the fencing that had been promised so they could scream the trains. | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
These were people who enjoyed a green Vista over a piece of green | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
open space, the tram comes along and they have the disruption. Then they | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
can't get the right height of friends. It sounds so small, but if | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
you live on one of those streets, it meant an awful lot to you. They had | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
to fight like tigers to get that. I pay tribute to the City Council and | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
I understand, essentially, what was happening. In fact, the tram | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
benefits the citizens of Nottingham. It goes through my constituency. It | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
does benefit those people who choose to use it, but the pain it has | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
caused has been extraordinary. And so there a democratic gap between | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
accountability. Because the people of the towns who suffered all of | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
this, but the accountable authority wasn't their local council. It was | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
the City Council. With great respect John Collins who leaves the City | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
Council, and I like, not the same party, but I like him. He would try | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
and help, and I know it sounds harsh, but it was never really in | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
their interests to sort it out because they weren't going to take | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
the hit at the ballot box when elections came about. We need to | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
make sure there is a better way of doing things so there is genuine | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
accountability when things don't go right. Construction, it was a | :19:54. | :20:01. | |
nightmare. We need good, responsible, efficient construction. | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
And we need proper communications people. One of the things that drove | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
wonderful community champions, were one of the good things that came out | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
of this. They stepped up and devoted their lives to representing | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
constituents because there was this terrible lack of communication. | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
People were literally being told, oh, by the way, in two days' time | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
you are moving out of your home. For a week, also. Cars were going to | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
work through the night. Carol Wall stepped forward as well, and I have | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
to mention a man who lived on lower road all his life but ignored, when | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
you talked about the state of what was under the road, his local | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
knowledge was ignored. When we look at construction, obviously, it's got | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
to be done on time. But we've got to make sure the works are done in a | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
reasonably civilised way so that people's lives aren't as blighted as | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
the word when this huge piece of infrastructure was literally being | :21:04. | :21:13. | |
carried out on the road. There is a photograph I have of somebody on | :21:14. | :21:15. | |
high road. It's their front room which is almost on the pavement. | :21:16. | :21:18. | |
There is a man with a drill leaning against her front window. That was | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
the reality of life for people through the tramways. They must be a | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
better way of doing it. So that we could take much more care about the | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
lives of people who are living in these major infrastructures. So, as | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
I say, working times. I accept you got to crack a lot of eggs when | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
you're making these sorts of projects. I mean, they can be hugely | :21:43. | :21:49. | |
beneficial. But there must be better ways of organising things so that we | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
reduce the dust, the noise, even rats. It was, as I say, for them a | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
terrible experience. For many of them is when they will not forget. | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Look at Heidi Road by way of example, this is where my | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
constituency office is. We were told it would be closed in one direction | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
for six months, and in another for six months. In the event the entire | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
road was closed for a year. I brought my right honourable friend, | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
the member for Derbyshire Dales, and I don't think he could believe me. | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
And another honourable friend came down and I don't think the former | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
Chancellor could actually believe the scale of the works and this | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
incredible impact, adverse impact it was having an business and the lives | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
of ordinary people. I think when it comes to construction, there has to | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
be better organisation. I think when we promised people by way of example | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
that they will be good communication we make sure that we deliver. | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
Literally, putting out a leaflet the night before some huge disruption | :22:57. | :23:05. | |
takes takes place is not acceptable. Then compensation. Part of the | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
public enquiry talked about how businesses would be compensated, | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
plans were put in place, in the event, by way of example, the area | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
of the businesses that could claim was far too restrictive. And then, | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
of course, as the whole of highly road was closed down and businesses | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
were on the brink of going under it took a campaign to achieve it but we | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
did it. We had a petition. We went to the city, we went to the county | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
council and we got extra funds for an emergency hardship fund. I pay | :23:37. | :23:44. | |
credit to the officials at the council who did everything they | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
could to speed that up. But it took an awful lot of aggravation from | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
their member of Parliament to achieve it. It shouldn't take that. | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
It shouldn't need me to have two fire off e-mails, go to the press, | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
so on and so forth to make sure businesses weren't properly | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
compensated, probably taken care of, and indeed, it could be argued that | :24:07. | :24:09. | |
that compensation continues as they try to make good the damage that's | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
been caused to the town. For two years, basically, as they say, it | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
was in a stranglehold of these construction works. And we all know | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
how we shop. We are creatures of habit. So a large number of people | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
have simply gone elsewhere. They've found new shopping habits. I don't | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
mean any disrespect to Derbyshire, it's a very nice place, but people | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
have gone off to Long Eaton to go shopping. They've formed new | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
shopping habits and now we have two drugs, well, not like them, | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
encourage them back to their shopping habits in Beeston. But that | :24:49. | :24:55. | |
takes a lot of effort. It needs proper planning. You need to do that | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
before the event, not twice but like mirrors unfolding. But for | :25:00. | :25:08. | |
residents... -- not while the nightmare is unfolding. There was no | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
compensation at all. No conversation for the dust, noise, pile drivers, | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
day after day, month after month. Walking on board with your shopping, | :25:19. | :25:23. | |
your car parked further down the road in the dark. Slipping, no | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
street lights, and so it goes on. No compensation for that loss of | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
amenity and for that destruction of the quality of life. I would urge | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
the Minister to look at that when we go into big pieces of infrastructure | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
project to make sure that we don't just dismissed residents and think, | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
oh, they'll put up with it. Cracking a few eggs to create a glorious | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
omelette. We'll see it was all worth it. I have to tell the house, that | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
for many of my constituents, they do not believe that it has been worth | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
it. Not worth it by any means at all. It goes on. It's such a small | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
thing, but I out of this debate someone could go and put the | :26:12. | :26:12. | |
flower bed in that was promised, cut the grass that was promised. And | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
make the entrance to that cul-de-sac that has been ripped up look good. | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
To give the residents just something back after everything that they have | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
been through. So that is what I would say, Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
don't want to sound overly negative. I do put huge caution, there are | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
those, some of them not always covered themselves with much glory | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
in the way they have campaigned in the past in favour of further | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
extension of the tram. Who will now seek to persuade the City Council to | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
extend up into Kimberley and Eastleigh. I don't represent those | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
constituencies, but I do represent Kimberley. The good people of | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
Kimberley have looked at what has happened in Beeston, and they share, | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
I think and believe, my concern is that they will find that the works | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
will not be worth it. And I certainly won't support any | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
extension of the tram works to anywhere else, actually, until such | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
time as we've learnt the lessons. Of course I will. Thank you for giving | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
way. She quite rightly asks the Minister to look at the lessons that | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
can be learned from this important infrastructure project which created | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
real hardship for many of my constituents, president and | :27:40. | :27:41. | |
businesses, but does she agree with me that Nottingham city are to be | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
congratulated on creating a world-class public transport system, | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
such that the campaign for better transport have recognised it as the | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
least car dependent city. It's actually reducing congestion and not | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
just for those who use the tramp of those who drive from the city's | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
roads, cutting carbon emissions and improving air quality. | :28:04. | :28:10. | |
What I would say to the honourable lady is that Nottingham is not alone | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
in having a tram system. Many other great cities have tram systems and, | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
indeed, many of the lessons to be learned will apply to them. There is | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
nothing new in it. I like the tram, but my goodness we will have more | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
debates in this place about the cost of trans-and by way of example about | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
the fact they have two connect other pieces of transport. It is | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
absolutely critical. It is a crying shame that cyclists have found that | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
the tram tracks are dangerous, I don't know if there is a debate | :28:42. | :28:49. | |
about that. But you've got to connect up transport. You can't | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
actually use your bicycle in parts of my constituency because of the | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
narrowness of the route. That is a know nothing that has come out of | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
this. It is critical that we get the roots right. So that we don't have a | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
situation whereby a tram track, as in my constituency is winding its | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
way around when actually they was no doubt a better route that would have | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
delivered people far better along that transport system, produced the | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
aunt of disruption. But Madam Deputy Speaker, as I say, there are lessons | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
to be learned and I look forward to my honourable friend coming to | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
Beeston, seeing the tramp system speaking to my brilliant | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
constituents and I know he'll take up these lessons. -- the tram | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
system. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
is a pleasure to listen to the speech of my right honourable friend | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
on this topic. She speaks with her customary vim and vigour. I think | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
it's fair to say that she and I share a great deal of experience in | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
terms of these traumas in our constituencies, and how they are not | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
always plain sailing. Particularly when they cross the boundaries of | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
authorities it can cause a problem. I recognise a lot in what she has | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
said of my own seven years as a member of Parliament. Of course the | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
Government is supportive of light rail in the right place. It is | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
convenient, reliable and popular. It has a considerable scope for | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
innovation, also. Particularly where it offers an alternative to | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
expensive real solutions and potential transport problems. More | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
people are talking about light rail than at any time since records began | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
in 1983. There has been an increase in the last year alone. | :30:41. | :30:49. | |
Improvements in discrediting transporters as people can rely on | :30:50. | :30:52. | |
butter and creating jobs and opportunity. -- but are creating | :30:53. | :31:10. | |
jobs and opportunity. Overall journalist satisfaction increased by | :31:11. | :31:25. | |
92% and 90% in itself. -- journey. -- 90% Nottingham itself. -- 98% in | :31:26. | :31:40. | |
Nottingham itself. It is worth approximately 10.7 billion | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
supporting around 300,000 locally -based jobs. Nottingham is a | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
regional capital and an important industrial and commercial centre and | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
it is vital that as a transport system that is reliable and can | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
support customers and shoppers and commuters and visitors. It is a key | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
element in the greater Nottingham transport strategy and since phase | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
one opened with 10 million passengers a year taking 3 million | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
car journeys offer local roads and improving accessibility for local | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
communities. Phase two is now been open for just over a year and is | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
already clear that it is boosting the local economy and improving | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
local employment levels of the supply chain than the local area. | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
There are an immense amount of positive is that I could list at | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
great length and time available but I also recognise the voice points of | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
my friend that it is not all plain sailing. Two main roads were closed | :32:40. | :32:49. | |
for two six months for safety reasons had an immense impact on | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
local communities and affected trade and business. I saw this in | :32:53. | :33:01. | |
Blackpool and in Fleetwood. Many of the visitors their were affected. | :33:02. | :33:08. | |
Many businesses are to shut down. Plus it is inevitable that something | :33:09. | :33:14. | |
of this nature will cause disruption to third parties including local | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
businesses that needs to be properly and effectively managed and planned | :33:19. | :33:21. | |
incorporation with the local community. I know efforts were made | :33:22. | :33:30. | |
were made to minimise impact but always more can be done in another | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
promoters undertook a number of additional measures to help deal | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
with the problems encountered along the way including a discretionary | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
financial package for small businesses and logistical support | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
traders and businesses during particularly intrusive works. She | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
herself had a significant hand in the development of much of that and | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
it needs to be put in place much earlier, I think, in these schemes | :33:53. | :34:02. | |
for the visitors and businesses to greater percentage over Polk | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
underwear. I know there was particular concern of equivocation | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
between stakeholders and local people and agree that location of | :34:10. | :34:11. | |
businesses and residents be undertaken. Not just originally but | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
also throughout construction a timely fashion since nobody is | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
taking. I am almost convinced that is more that can be done in these | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
situations and in particular uncertainty of the timescale and the | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
timeliness of work can harm small businesses but also harm the | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
decision people make about how they choose to spend their lives and with | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
a chisel of villages to do with the properties. With this in mind I | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
wholeheartedly agree with my honourable friend that it is vital | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
lessons I learned in the construction of all major road | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
groups and projects. I understand that this in particular case report | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
will be published shortly that will have to focus on issues such as | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
project programming and planning and how diverse this could be managed | :35:02. | :35:09. | |
and extensive disruption to third parties and implementation of | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
property management measures. The department I will want to study the | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
outcomes and conclusions of that report into what further steps are | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
required but I agree we need to apply these lessons to future | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
infrastructure projects to do all we can to minimise these negative | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
impacts and will look to work with UK Tram to disseminate these | :35:28. | :35:35. | |
findings. I would be delighted to come to Beeston. I look forward to | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
meeting her constituents and take note of her points on safety | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
reversing it in Blackpool there can be all too inviting motorcycle pass | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
the tram when it is not a cycle path at all. -- all too inviting to cycle | :35:51. | :36:04. | |
past. I commend the honourable lady for raising important points but | :36:05. | :36:11. | |
from the Nottingham East point of view my constituents really use the | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
tram and love it and would quite like it to extent the side of the | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
city. I very much note the comment is the honourable gentleman makes a | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
whole pub and try to make clear that are immense positive values and | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
benefits from light rail in Nottingham and the country as a | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
holder that should not minimise the impact it has on those who live | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
immediately adjacent to the tracks themselves. In my own constituency | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
the tram track has been there for 100 years. When we are planning new | :36:43. | :36:52. | |
tram routes it may come as moreover surprise to people. It will laws be | :36:53. | :37:02. | |
a case of horses for courses. Would he agree with me that we might | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
actually have a very interesting debate in this place about the | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
safety of tram tracks and bicycles? There are many examples in Sheffield | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
and in Edinburgh, not just Nottingham, are people who have | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
suffered as a result of their wheels getting stuck in tram tracks. Would | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
you share my concern that a large part of the scheme in Nottingham, | :37:28. | :37:35. | |
including in my constituency tram tracks and cycle routes are | :37:36. | :37:45. | |
co-terminus. Whenever you have a co-terminus where roads and trams | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
occupy the same space can be very difficult, particularly for visitors | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
who are not familiar with the road available and Blackpool being a | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
tourist town people do not realise that what is tram track is tram | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
track. I will be delighted to have that debate at point. I understated | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
that as the Messiah can take part in it. I noted my honourable friend 's | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
point about the public inquiry system and the finger are very | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
important. These protesters have to take part in the very beginning. -- | :38:23. | :38:31. | |
I understand that as the Minister I am frustrated that I cannot take | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
part. It is important that enquiries are overseen by an independent | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
inspector. This includes consideration of the route alignment | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
of other alternative roads can be considered and then dissipated | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
transport regeneration and environmental and social economic | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
benefits. As she knows just such a public inquiry was held for | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
Nottingham transit fees two and commented the views of all parties. | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
I generally hear the point she making about ensuring a balanced | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
approach to these and that everybody who has an interest actually gets a | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
fair chance to have their say and those contributions are considered | :39:13. | :39:15. | |
in the round rather than just a matter of he who shouts loudest. | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
Look forward to hearing your views when she does write to me and we | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
will look at them very closely. I also note why this is important in | :39:24. | :39:33. | |
terms of HS2 potentially coming to Toton. An older Secretary of State | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
is still to make a decision but that is no alternative being considered. | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
-- I know the Secretary of State is still to make a decision. We have to | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
learn from what we have done the first time round. We have to ensure | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
those mystics are not made again. In conclusion Madam Deputy Speaker we | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
will continue to work with the light rail and tram sector to help bring | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
down costs but the decision over which schemes to develop will | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
continue to rest with local areas. It is vital that lessons are learned | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
about minimising disruption on all sorts of infrastructure projects | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
allowing more committees of the country a say in how light rail or | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
indeed other solutions are developed to benefit their communities. The | :40:20. | :40:28. | |
light your minister is not unacquainted with trams and light | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
rail will have an important role to play that has to happen when | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
treatment is not just to communities. That has to be my | :40:36. | :40:43. | |
watchword as we use forward. Working with the communities who will be | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
effected not against them. The question is that this House node to | :40:52. | :40:52. | |
adjourn. The ayes habit. Ayes Order, order. That is the end | :40:53. | :41:17. | |
of the day in the House of Commons. We will now be going over live to | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
the House of lords. You can watch coverage after the daily later | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
tonight. -- after the Daily Politics tonight. The way it operates has | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
been Jiddah knows has | :41:38. | :41:38. |