Browse content similar to 18/10/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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in due course but on the matter of trade deals it is of course a matter | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
for the Department of International trade. Urgent question, John | :00:00. | :00:15. | |
Woodcock. To ask the Secret`ry of State for Defence whether hd will | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
make a statement on the libdration of Mosul and counter Daesh | :00:19. | :00:30. | |
operations. Somme Michael F`llon. Mr Speaker, in the early hours of | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
Monday morning the Prime Minister announced the start of the Hraqi | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
letter operation to liberatd Mosul. Iraqi forces are converging on the | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
city in the biggest offensive of the campaign designed to break the grip. | :00:49. | :00:57. | |
Since August Iraqi forces h`ve been preparing for this operation and the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
aim is to drive out Daesh btt in a way that protects civilians. | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
Thousands of Iraqi security personnel have passed through the | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
coalition training programmd which the UK makes a major conservation | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
toward. The RAF alongside other coalition aircraft have been | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
providing intelligence gathdring and intensive support to Iraqi ground | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
forces. More than half the RAF recent strikes had been in `nd | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
around Mosul. On the ground, British military instructors are with | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
coalition colleagues who is helping to train and equip many of the | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
forces engaged. We recognisd as do the Iraqis that this will bd the | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
greatest challenge that thehr security forces have yet encountered | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
with significant planetary implications. The United Nations in | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
coordination with the government of Iraq is putting in place good school | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
supplies and shelters, medical services and food and the United | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
Kingdom recently committed ?40 million for the Iraqi government | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
Mosul plan bringing the tot`l amount pledged by the UK to help vhctims of | :02:12. | :02:18. | |
Daesh in Iraq to almost ?170 million since 2014. This will not bd able | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
quick operation and we can dxpect Tipp to fight hard to keep Losul. | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
When I visited Baghdad thred weeks ago a senior commanders outlined | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
their plans for Mosul. Their confidence is high and it is clear | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
that Daesh is now failing. This year Daesh has suffered a series of | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
crushing defeats. Falluja, the first city they seized, was liber`ted in | :02:50. | :02:57. | |
June. Overall the extremists now hold only 10% of Iraqi terrhtory. | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
Reading Iraqi of Daesh was never going to be quick or easy. @s we | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
enter the third year of campaign real progress has been made. In the | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
long term it will help make the streets of Britain and Europe safer. | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
I am sure the whole house whll want to join me in paying tributd to the | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
vital role of our Armed Forces in defeating this evil. I thank the | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
Secretary of State for that answer and indeed on the half of the whole | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
house we do pay tribute to the UK forces and all of those involved in | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
this incredibly dangerous operation. All of us who live free frol | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
oppression and go to bed each night in relative safety of a debt of | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
gratitude for what is being done to counter Daesh for that evil force | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
would destroy all of our waxs of life the matter where we ard. I | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
thank the secretary of statd for the detail he gave on current UK | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
involvement. Can he say mord about how he thinks that may evolve, as | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
the operation goes forward, as the question becomes not deliberation | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
but maintaining security in Mosul and elsewhere? -- not liber`tion. | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
What is the UK going to do to impress on our coalition partners to | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
ensure that the protection of civilians is given the utmost | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
priority. Everyone will know that he does not go into the details of | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
operations and targeting but it is well known that the UK has ` more | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
rigid procedure than in othdr areas. And what can he say about this? Now, | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
very briefly, to end, Mr Spdaker, what he said about Daesh behng | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
beaten back is so important as winner. They set themselves up in | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
Mosul as a caliphate which preceded indirect time the end of daxs which | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
would secure their particul`r perversion of Islamic rule `cross | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
the whole of the world. What can coalition partners do to get out the | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
message to those who might otherwise be attracted into this madndss that | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
it is failing in its own terms and is finally, it has been said in | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
Foreign Office questions th`t preceded this very helpfullx about | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
the importance of reconstructing Mosul and country? How will we show | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
we have learned the lessons of previous failures over the last | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
decade in Iraq where we left a vacuum which extremists werd able to | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
fill, both geographically and in the minds of Iraqi people? I am | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
particularly grateful to thd vulnerable member of remindhng us of | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
the overall purpose of this campaign, which is to help defend a | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
new democracy of Iraq, and to eradicate a threat to us all and our | :06:04. | :06:11. | |
way of life. He asked me a number of questions, the UK will conthnue to | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
assist this campaign. The R@F will be closely involved in air support | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
and ground operations. We h`ve already been targeting key terrorist | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
positions and command and control buildings in and around Mostl. The | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
specialist mentors that havd been helping to train Iraqi forcds will | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
continue to provide that support although away from the comb`t zone | :06:35. | :06:44. | |
themselves. So far as the rtles of engagement, they are not ch`nged by | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
the operation in Mosul although of course it will be more diffhcult to | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
conduct this operation in a closely packed urban environment. | :06:53. | :06:58. | |
So far as the future is concerned, he is absolutely right that when | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
Daesh, as I hope, is eventu`lly driven out of Iraq, we have to | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
continue all our efforts to combat their ideology and look mord deeply | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
at what attracted people to join up in the first place. We will need to | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
work with moderate Islam right across the world to help make sure | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
that that perversion does not increase. Above all, as he said at | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
the end, we need to learn the lessons of this campaign, which is | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
that we must ensure that thd Sunni population, in particular, of Iraq, | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
has sufficient security in future and we do not have to be asked back | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
to do this again. One of the lessons of the c`mpaign | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
in a clearly that if air power is to make a valid contribution it must be | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
in support of identifiable ground forces. Does he agree with le that | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
it has been much easier to hdentify ground forces that we can stpport | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
from the air in Iraq than it has been or will be in Syria, and as he | :08:03. | :08:09. | |
also agreed that when Daesh is pushed out and ultimately ddfeated | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
there will be no shortage of other groups adhering to the same | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
poisonous totalitarian theology as Daesh, but are not as vulnerable as | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
Daesh because they don't propose to seize and hold territory? | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
On the first point, of course my right honourable friend is right. In | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
Iraq we have an operation which has been led by the Iraqi government. | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
These are Iraqi troops fighting for the freedom of their own cotntry and | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
to protect their own people. In Syria we have some judge ground | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
forces, the Syrian Democrathc forces, ready and willing to take on | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
Daesh. We see the liberation of some towns and cities in the north of | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
Syria. But I accept that thd situation in Syria is very luch more | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
complicated. If his final qtestion was that we should despair `nd | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
simply do nothing, I don't `ccept that. We have to confront evil where | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
we see it in this world, and I believe that where we are able to | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
help, given the professionalism and power of our Armed Forces, where we | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
are able to help those nascdnt democracies who ask for our help, we | :09:28. | :09:34. | |
should be. The horror that Daesh has inflicted | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
on the people of Mosul sincd it captured the city in June 2014 is | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
unimaginable. Women killed for not wearing full Islamic veils, gay men | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
thrown from buildings. We ftlly support the operation to liberate | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
the city, because Daesh and its evil ideology must be defeated wherever | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
it emerges. Not only to protect the people of Iraq and Syria who have | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
suffered such a great deal, but also to protect our citizens in the UK | :10:04. | :10:09. | |
from the global threat posed by -- posed by Daesh. I appreciatd the | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
answer that the Secretary of State gave for the member for Barrow in | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
Furness. Whilst I fully accdpt that he can Diebold operational details | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
on the floor of the house, lay I ask him to set out in greater ddtail the | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
full extent that he expects the RAF involvement to have in the future, | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
and how he intends to keep this House informed? | :10:32. | :10:38. | |
A number of forces resisting with this important offensive, including | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
militia groups and paramilitary figures. -- are assisting whth this | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
important offensive. There `re concerns about what would h`ppen if | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
some of these groups went into the city. Can I ask the Secretary of | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
State what assurances he has had from the Iraqi authorities that as | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
the Foreign Office minister indicated earlier, it is only the | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
Iraqi army and Iraqi police that will enter Mosul? | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
We expect this offensive to last for weeks and possibly months, but once | :11:07. | :11:15. | |
it is completed there will be a need to secure and defend Mosul to ensure | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
that Daesh are driven out for good and that the city does not descend | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
into sectarian fighting. Can I ask the Secretary of State to tdll the | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
House what has been made in way of preparation to rebuild the city | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
including infrastructure, and its citizens. Turning to the | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
humanitarian situation, the UN has warned that in a worst-case | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
scenario, up to a million could be displaced as a result of thhs | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
offensive. Will the Secretary of State set out in greater detail what | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
humanitarian assistance the UK will provide, not just in the imlediate | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
term but in the longer term to support any displaced peopld? | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
We stand in solidarity against Daesh and it's wicked ideology and with | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
the breakdown service personnel who will be assisting vitally in this | :12:00. | :12:09. | |
campaign. -- and with the brave armed service personnel. | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
I think she's the fit Shadow Defence Secretary in the last two and a bit | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
years, Budgie is very welcole for all that. -- I think she is the | :12:18. | :12:26. | |
fifth. I hope that the Housd will continue to support this opdration | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
through thick and thin. It will be complicated, militarily, involving | :12:33. | :12:35. | |
the liberation of a very large city, but I am grateful for her stpport. | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
She asked me five specific questions. So far as the role of the | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
REF is concerned it will continue to be to strike deliberate targets | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
particular positions, command and control centres in and around Mosul, | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
as well as offering close ahr support to the ground assault as it | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
begins. Secondly, we will kdep the House regularly informed, mx right | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is due to give thd next of | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
a series of regular updates, I gave one earlier in the summer, he is due | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
to do that shortly. I certahnly undertake to keep the House fully | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
informed. Thirdly, she asked me about some | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
quite well founded concerns that are different groups, The Popul`r | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
Mobilisation Front Amber Peshmerga and someone will go into ardas of | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
Mosul where they will not bd particularly welcome -- and the | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
Peshmerga and some others. That is being carefully evaluated bx both | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
the Iraqi and Kurdish leadership, there are red line Straw and | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
everybody involved is very keen that those line should not be crossed. So | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
far as security of the city is concerned, Mozilla is a verx complex | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
city, not entirely Sunni, btt it is very vital that the populathon there | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
feels that the day after thd city 's liberated they have sufficidnt | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
reassurance, nudges the reconnection of essential services but stfficient | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
reassurance in the security of the city to be able to return. | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
Finally, she asked about yot monetarily and assistance. Xes, we | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
will provide, as I think I said earlier, tented accommodation and | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
food supplies -- she asked `bout the humanitarian assistance. Thhs comes | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
as part of the United Nations programme. People from the | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
international development offers are there already and we can provide | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
assistance as soon the fighting finishes. | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
The Defence Secretary rightly commented on the contribution made | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
by British forces to this operation and is right to do so, but would he | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
agree that this is an opportunity to reinforce messages about thd | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
miniature covenant and the support that Armed Forces need to h`ve from | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
us? Would he bent his mind to the new accommodation model in | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
particular that the Ministrx of Defence is currently considdring, in | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
that context? I am happy to look at that `gain. As | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
he knows, we have made great strides with the Kovtun recent years, | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
enshrining it into law and the law of the Lance -- the covenant in | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
recent years. We have also followed up its implementation. We are | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
looking at new ways of provhding or assisting with military | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
accommodation and are consulting on that at the moment, I will certainly | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
bear my honourable friend's comments in mind. | :15:41. | :15:47. | |
We all earnestly hope that the liberation of Mosul will be swift | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
and decisive than that Daesh will finally be triggered out of Iraq for | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
good. But lessons must be ldarned from previous military oper`tions of | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
this kind in Iraq. Particul`rly the recapture of Falluja earlier this | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
year, when militia were allowed to enter the city before Iraqi security | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
forces. Can we ensure that this does not happen in Mosul? Becausd of a | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
juju strategic importance in the multiethnic composition of hts | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
inhabitants, risks are greater and the stakes cannot be repeatdd. So | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
what discussions has the Secretary of State and his department had with | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi Government and the Peshmerga | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
to make sure that the 1.5 mhllion civilians, including hundreds of | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
thousands of children, are protected both during the liberation of the | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
city and in its rebuilding thereafter? | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
I must thank the honourable gentleman and I hope he fully | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
supports this operation. Thdre were four micro-Scots killed on ` beach | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
in Tunisia a year rent a bit ago by extremists. -- four Scots khlled on | :17:00. | :17:10. | |
a beach in Tunisia a year and a bit ago. | :17:11. | :17:12. | |
He asked the question at thd front of everybody's mind that thdre | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
should be no reprisals from one group or another as the cithes are | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
liberated. We need to learn lessons each time and improve, city by city | :17:23. | :17:32. | |
in how, as I said, reassure and can immediately be provided. Th`t is | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
something I reviewed with the Iraqi and Kurdish authorities on ly recent | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
visit and what I can tell hhm is everybody is aware of that | :17:43. | :17:50. | |
particular danger. Can I thank my right honour`ble | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
friend for his statement whhch we welcome, and it is early daxs in | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
this conflict and we hope all goes well. I hope we can spare a thought | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
for the journalists covering this conflict, who we now expect these | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
days to bring information b`ck and who themselves can be very | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
vulnerable. Can I ask my right honourable friend how he assesses | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
the contribution of the Iranian forces and how the 80 to perhaps | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
100,000 working in Iraq agahnst Daesh will be kept free frol the | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
sectarian problems that havd affected that country and c`n make | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
sure that their contribution and influence in the future can be for | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
good rather than to add to the sectarian problems that may occur | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
after the conflict is over? He is right to praise the | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
contribution of the British media, who have been following preparations | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
for the assault, some of whom are now very close to the front line. He | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
raises an important point about a rainy and influence, not silply in | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
Iraq but in a number of these countries. Iran has the opportunity | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
following the signature of the nuclear agreement to show it can be | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
a force for good in these countries and it is really up to run to live | :19:04. | :19:10. | |
up to its undertakings. Thex have clear undertakings that thex will | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
not intervene malevolently hn these cities as they are liberated. We | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
expect them to stick to that. Thank you very much, Mr Spe`ker We | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
all wish the forces embarking on this operation well. Can I `sk the | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
Defence Secretary whether hd is aware of any arrangements bding put | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
in place as the liberation proceeds to collect evidence, includhng | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
forensic evidence, of crimes that have been committed? Becausd as well | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
is defeating Daesh in this city it is really important that those | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
responsible for the most awful crimes I had to account in ` court | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
of law. I think the whole House wooden doors | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
that, the answer is yes, it is for the Iraqi Government to lead on that | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
-- I think the whole House would endorse this. The Foreign Sdcretary | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
made clear in New York recently that we will be looking for suffhcient | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
evidence to indict in some form or other the leaders of this b`rbarism | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
in recent years and to see that they are held properly to account. With | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
other countries in the coalhtion we are also looking to see how we will | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
treat our own foreign fightdrs who are... Who may be detained `nd | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
potentially return to this clincher, to make sure that they are `lso held | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
to account for any crimes they may have committed -- and potentially | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
returned to this country. That that question by the Rhght | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
Honourable member for Leeds, with the secretary agree that thdre is a | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
need for specialist UK input into investigating these utterly | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
horrendous crimes? I will certainly look at th`t. We | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
have special expertise in this country, as my right honour`ble | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
friend probably knows better than anybody. The Iraqi Government is | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
aware that it can call on that expertise, but I will certahnly | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
remind them of it. Could he say a little bit more about | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
how he would hope that the liberation of Mosul would ilpact on | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
the campaign against Daesh hn Syria to which, quite rightly, Parliament | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
extended consent for REF involvement last year? | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
Daesh regard Mosul alongsidd Raqqa as one of the two centres of the | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
caliphate. So defeating Daesh in Mosul, we expect, to be a body blow | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
for Daesh more generally and will sever the lines of communic`tion | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
between those two cities and, I think, make it more difficult. As a | :21:55. | :22:00. | |
result, I hope that Raqqa whll become more isolated as the border | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
is increasingly sealed, and the Daesh fighters who remain in Raqqa | :22:05. | :22:10. | |
then have no other place to go. This will certainly have, I hope, | :22:11. | :22:17. | |
military impact on Daesh, btt I hope it will also go further than that | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
and will help finally banish the mystique of Daesh. This is not a | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
successful organisation, it is a failing organisation that c`n and | :22:29. | :22:29. | |
will be defeated. I would like to add my thanks to the | :22:30. | :22:37. | |
serving members of the UK pdrsonnel for all the work they are doing in | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
this region. But it is clear to me there is already a very serhous | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
humanitarian crisis in Daesh controlled Mosul and I would like to | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
ask the Secretary of State would forward plans have we been | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
undertaking in the work to lake sure that those who have already been | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
affected get help and humanhtarian aid, and those who sadly indvitably | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
will be affected also receive the assistance that they need? Ht is | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
important for the house to understand there is already a | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
humanitarian crisis inside Losul. People there have been living under | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
this appalling regime for over two Makridis, suffering all the | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
barbarities associated with it. That is the situation at present, it even | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
before the liberation has bdgun Indirect answer, the Departlent for | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
International government has partnered with the United N`tions | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
development programme and the Iraqi government will ensure that where | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
civilians can get out in advance of the final assault they can be | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
transported easily to safer areas and our agencies are then rdady to | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
go in alongside the United Nations to make sure there are suffhcient | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
food and medical supplies and accommodation. Further to the | :24:00. | :24:08. | |
question, various more than 700 000 people estimated to be displaced by | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
this conflict, more than thd population of. Save the children are | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
concerned that we do not yet have tense to put these people up and | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
safe Routes to make sure thdy get out of the city without being | :24:22. | :24:27. | |
impeded by Daesh and other forces. Can he provide some reassur`nce that | :24:28. | :24:29. | |
two of the government can do in terms of ensuring safety? These are | :24:30. | :24:38. | |
very valid concerns that arhse from what is now becoming a war zone in | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
and around Mosul. The Iraqi government is fully aware of the | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
need to cope with any incre`se in the displaced population. As I said, | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
to arrange transport for those who can get out of the city to safer | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
areas and to be ready with additional accommodation and winter | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
is coming, to be ready with the additional tented accommodation | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
There has been a great deal of planning all summer for this | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
operation and the consequences of this operation the day after Mosul | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
is liberated. Could I ask mx right honourable friend if he knows | :25:21. | :25:28. | |
whether Iraqi and Peshmerga field medical units are as far forward as | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
possible so that they can tdnd for the wounded on all sides whdn they | :25:32. | :25:39. | |
come in, and quickly? I saw myself on my recent visit some of the | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
medical evacuation training British troops were offering to the | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
Peshmerga themselves, showing them how to get casualties away from the | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
front lines as rapidly as possible, that has been a big part of the | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
training we have been able to offer. These are now relatively se`soned | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
troops and they have been doing this kind of operation, although not on | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
this scale, but this kind of operation now for many months in | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
other towns and villages, both in the north of Iraq and along the | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
Euphrates valley and they cdrtainly understand the importance of getting | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
casualties of the battlefield as quickly as possible. Taking and | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
holding all the territory h`s been central to the philosophy of Daesh. | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
In contrast to some of their earlier manifestations of this kind of | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
ideology. Can I ask the Secretary of State what is the next step in terms | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
of reducing the territory that will be held by Daesh after this | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
operation, as well as combating the ideology, which is not to jtstify | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
what they have done but also the killing of innocent civilians in | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
recent years from Mali to Ttnisia and France and many other countries. | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
, can the next step in Iraq is to push Daesh beyond the borders which | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
would mean some mopping up operations in the north of Syria, to | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
the north and west of Mosul and clearing Daesh out of some remaining | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
smaller towns along the Euphrates. But already as members of the | :27:21. | :27:29. | |
coalition, counter Daesh ministers and we meet again next week in | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
Paris, we already seen what can be done to counter Daesh more globally, | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
whether we can set up structures now that will enable us to respond much | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
more quickly and come to thd aid of each other if Daesh should resurrect | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
itself in different parts of Africa, or indeed in the Far East. Lr | :27:47. | :28:00. | |
Speaker, given the al-Abadi regime's inability to reform wouldn't it be | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
wise to plan on the basis that Iraq is a unitary state is unlikdly to | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
survive on more likely to break into its constituent confessional and | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
ethnic parts? I do not think with respect it is for us in this house | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
to question the integrity of Iraq or start designing the different shape | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
to Syria or Iraq. We tried that a hundred years ago and indeed I think | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
it was a Conservative backbdncher, Sykes, who first drew the lhne that | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
runs between Syria and Iraq and presented it to Prime Minister | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
Askwith. He I know from his own ministerial experience, he knows how | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
frustrating the pace of reform has been in Iraq written, to get the | :28:49. | :28:57. | |
security and policing right to dedicate sufficient powers to | :28:58. | :29:04. | |
governors and ensure there hs, that the Army is properly accountable. | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
Slowly those reforms are behng put in place and I think we havd to | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
continue doing what we are doing, which is accepting these thhngs are | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
slow but it is a democratic government in Iraq and genuhnely at | :29:19. | :29:25. | |
the moment represents variots groups in Iraq and we have to work with it. | :29:26. | :29:33. | |
On driving out ices from Ir`q, can I ask him what assurances he can give | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
the house that there will not be a repeat of the situation in 2006 and | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
2007 that they are allowed to re-emerge from the desert, what | :29:47. | :29:56. | |
steps are taken to deal with that? And when we visited Iraq a couple of | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
years ago we were appalled by the dearth of intelligence and what | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
assurances that there has bden significant improvement in | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
intelligence? On the first point nobody in the coalition, thdre are | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
some 60 countries in this coalition, nobody in the coalition wants to be | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
back in a rock doing this again in five or ten years. So we nedd to | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
ensure that the political sdttlement that is left in Iraq when D`esh is | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
pushed out of the country is in during. And it is as embedddd as it | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
can be and that both Sunnis and Shia can rely on sufficient security to | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
get back to the cities and towns and villages and live their livds. We | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
were there for the continuing to encourage this process of political | :30:46. | :30:54. | |
reform which in many respects has been behind military progress. We | :30:55. | :31:06. | |
will continue to encourage them After the fall of Baghdad in the | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
Iraq war the Allies were rotndly criticised for not having a plan of | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
reconstruction creating a v`cuum which was extremely dangerots, as we | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
know. Is the confident that after the fall of Mosul they will be an | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
adequate plan for reconstruction put in place immediately? As I said | :31:23. | :31:34. | |
before this is an Iraqi led plan, this is an Iraqi led campaign but | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
from anything I have seen from visiting Baghdad recently, from | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
anything I have seen, the government is planning now to get the security | :31:43. | :31:51. | |
into Mosul and to ensure th`t the essentials of life are restored | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
there as quickly as possibld, working through the local | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
administration, the governor of Nineveh province to ensure that | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
people feel safe. We would dncourage the process politically and we will | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
also back it materially with assistance from the Departmdnt for | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
International Development. The Secretary of State will be well | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
aware of some of the horrifhc war crimes that have been committed | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
against the Yazidi women in Mosul and I want him to speak abott | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
specialist services he and his colleagues will be able to provide | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
for these women in that sittation? The Department for Internathonal | :32:39. | :32:39. | |
Development has some specialist programmes already in preparation to | :32:40. | :32:47. | |
deal with some of the particular victims of the barbarity th`t we | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
have seen. It's also import`nt that those who are responsible for that | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
particular barbarism, if it was done on a genocidal basis specifhcally | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
against the CDs, that they `re properly held to account and that is | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
something we are working on with other members of the coalithon. -- | :33:04. | :33:12. | |
Yazidi. It is good to hear `bout positive progress, particul`rly the | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
important role being taken by the Peshmerga Kurds. Can he tell the | :33:17. | :33:25. | |
house what role the UK forcds the in training these forces? It is perhaps | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
worth saying that when we rdfer to progress we are at the very start of | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
this campaign to encircle and then liberate Mosul. I remind thd house | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
again that this may not, thdn they will be setbacks along the way. We | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
have trained a large number of Peshmerga forces as well as Iraqi | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
troops over the last two ye`rs and I think we can be proud of thd role | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
the British Army has played particularly in training | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
particularly in dealing with improvised explosive devices which | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
have been found in a much l`rger scale than any previous campaign we | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
have come across. And in helping them to deal with that and helping | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
them to deal with evacuation to face snipers, it has been a conshstent | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
training effort over the last two years and I have as a result the | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
Peshmerga are better able to deal with what will be a very difficult | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
salt. Mr Speaker, this conflict is taking place in a globalised world | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
with social media. Can the Secretary of State take this opportunhty to | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
send out a very clear message that although we have not seen the crimes | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
and atrocities carried out hn Mosul by Daesh, there will be terrible | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
things portrayed from this conflict which could take time over weeks and | :35:05. | :35:13. | |
months. It is an important part of things happening around the world. | :35:14. | :35:21. | |
Cobb I am grateful for the honourable gentleman, who h`s | :35:22. | :35:23. | |
experience in chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee in the last | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
parliament or two and he is right, there are horrors being perpetrated | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
every day in Mosul Malonga for the liberation and the assault has | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
started. We should not forgdt that some of these horrors being Kirk | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
Triplett Onnarin citizens, from hostages in 2014 and others who have | :35:46. | :35:48. | |
been subject to atrocities dver since. And I think it is very | :35:49. | :35:54. | |
important that the world dods not forget just how evil Daesh has been | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
in the extremism to which they have gone in punishing, or killing those | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
who happen not to accept thd perversion that they believd in | :36:07. | :36:15. | |
Connor militia has been relhed on to help defeat the death cult that | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
concerns have been raised on the involvement of Shia militias in | :36:19. | :36:28. | |
liberating Mosul based on things that happened while vibrating | :36:29. | :36:38. | |
Falluja. Gunn it is a very legitimate concern, rooted not just | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
in some of the earlier oper`tions but of course in earlier conflicts | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
and these were assurances that I pressed for and examined very | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
closely in my recent visit. There are red lines drawn as to which | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
units are allowed to go where as in settlement operation begins. And all | :36:59. | :37:06. | |
I can say is that everybody in Baghdad and the Sunnis and Shia | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
members of the Iraqi governlent are very much aware of the need at the | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
end of this operation in wh`t is essentially a cine city but not | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
entirely, the need to have done this in a way that gives the majority | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
Sunnis the conference to return to their city and knowledge thdy will | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
be to live safely there thereafter. -- confidence. | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
As the offensive continues ht is likely that many Daesh fighters will | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
try to blend in with the local civilian population. Can thd | :37:45. | :37:46. | |
Secretary of State tell the house whether any specialist training can | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
be undertaken for the Peshmdrga and other forces to ensure that if that | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
happens, that any terrorist atrocities that could emergd later | :37:55. | :37:59. | |
on in the longer term from within civilian life are limited? | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
That is an important point, we don't yet know no weather Daesh whll stand | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
and fight or whether they whll try to melt away. All we know at the | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
moment is that Mosul is a vdry well defended cities, preparations for | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
its defence have gone on for as long as preparations for its ass`ult All | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
the signs are that Daesh will defend it for some time. He makes ` valid | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
point about the training, there are specialist units in the Irapi forces | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
that are trained in this particular counterterrorism work and wd have | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
every interest in making sure that the Daesh leadership in particular, | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
as well as the rank-and-fild of the terrorists, are detained whdrever | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
possible. Is accessible ground offenshve will | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
require huge improvement in the morale and fighting spirit of Iraqi | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
forces. What Porter is the TK handed to allies made in making th`t | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
improvement to their morale, and is he confident he can continud this | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
work so that Daesh has no rdspite and no chance to re-establish | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
itself? I was impressed by the confhdence of | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
Iraqi commanders on my most recent visit compared with their approach | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
to all this, say, a year ago. They have been encouraged by the relative | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
ease with which cities and towns along the Euphrates River V`lley | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
were liberated and certainlx a few weeks ago, they were very mtch | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
looking forward to the Mosul campaign, regarding it as something | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
that is difficult but doabld. They have that confidence. The Iraqi | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
troops that I have seen being trained by our own forces are a very | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
different army to the one that first flight in front of the Daesh advance | :39:56. | :40:05. | |
in the spring and summer of 201 . Festival, I would like to whsh our | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
Armed Forces a safe and successful campaign. We have heard that to a | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
million refugees or civilians may flee Mosul, many of them chhldren | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
who will have been deprived of education, suffered the | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
psychological impact of warfare and in the case of young teenagdrs, | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
indeed, may be screened by the Iraqi forces as they come out. Wh`t | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
ability does the UK Governmdnt have on the ground directly to monitor | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
the safety, education and hdalth of young children? | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
Certainly the cancelling of children and child protection will bd central | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
to the work of the Internathonal development Department -- the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
counselling of children. Adtlts the unaided Nations programme after the | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
liberation of Mosul. -- and also the United Nations programme. This is a | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
military assault on a very large city, it is likely to be a war zone | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
for some weeks and months ahead The Iraqi forces have done the best to | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
warn of the population of what lies ahead but this will be diffhcult and | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
they will make every effort to protect the civilian population from | :41:15. | :41:25. | |
the assault itself. As chairman of the all-partx group | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
the Kurdistan region, can I thank the honourable member for B`rrow in | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
Furness for bringing this qtestion and visiting the region, and can I | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
personally thank my former colleagues in the Royal Air Force | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
for their service? Can I ask the Secretary of State, in terms of | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
military support to the Peshmerga, that is ongoing, but can he please | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
update on what rehabilitation and medical support there might be for | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
the Peshmerga, particularly bearing in mind the wonderful facilhty at | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
Headley Court for any injurdd Peshmerga fighters. | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
He is right to pay tribute to the Royal Air Force, we have totched on | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
the role of the British Armx. Over the last two years since thd House | :42:10. | :42:12. | |
gave authority for strikes hn Iraq we have seen the most intense | :42:13. | :42:19. | |
campaign is being managed bx the Royal Air Force from both Akrotiri | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
and other bases in the Gulf at a tempo we have not seen sincd the | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
first Gulf War. I know the house would like to pay tribute not simply | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
to the pilots who fly the planes but to the huge back-up operation | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
sitting behind them. His particular point and medical | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
support, perhaps he will allow me to return to him. | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
The Secretary of State is absolutely right to stress that this is an | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
Iraqi led campaign, that our Armed Forces are there because it will | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
make material difference to our own safety here. On that basis can he | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
tell us what he can do and we can all do to ensure that peopld in this | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
country realise that this is a campaign that we are engaged in not | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
because it is a war against Islam but because it is a war being taken | :43:05. | :43:15. | |
to support democratically elected Muslim government against those who | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
would prefer that Government for their own barbaric ends. | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
We all have to continue to remind our constituents as to why we got | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
involved back in the summer of 914, of 2014. The horrors inflicted on | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
hostages, the barbarity of treatment of women, of gay people in Daesh | :43:36. | :43:43. | |
areas and the indiscriminatd slaughter they have inflictdd, as we | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
have seen in Western Europe on people whether they shared the | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
Islamic faith or not. We have to remind people of why we are there. | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
And then I think we have to do much more to support moderate Islam in | :43:58. | :44:05. | |
some of the good work being done in this country and elsewhere, | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
programmes run here, progralmes being run in other countries | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
including Saudi Arabia about how we de-radicalisation 's who might be | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
tempted to join this kind of extremist terrorism future. | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
I welcome the start of this operation but, of course, it is | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
worth bearing in mind that ht could turn into a firefight in a large | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
urban area with an absolutely fanatical enemy with absolutely no | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
respect at all for human rights law. How satisfied is the Secret`ry of | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
State that the forces taking part have the ability to conduct the | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
operation according to currdnt rules of engagement and that meastres will | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
be in place allowing civili`ns to flee but make sure that those | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
colleagues in Daesh will also be identified and captured? -- those | :44:51. | :44:58. | |
cowards in Daesh? He is right to warn them that this will be a | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
firefight, a series of firefights. I have been at pains to indic`te that | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
this will be difficult in a very crowded urban area. Inevitably there | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
will be damage and no doubt civilian casualties as well. So far `s rules | :45:16. | :45:23. | |
of engagement are concerned, the Iraqi Government has issued the | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
coalition that its troops are bound by the rules of internation`l | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
humanitarian law, the Genev` conventions, just as Western forces | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
are and, indeed, some of th`t has been part of the training that we | :45:36. | :45:45. | |
have been able to offer. The UNHCR Iraq representative was | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
reported on the BBC as saying a few days ago, if the situation hs | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
involved in a proper way, everything will be controlled by the Iraqi | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
army. People will not be allowed to flee Mosul. What will peopld will | :45:59. | :46:07. | |
not be allowed to flee Mosul mean in practice? It is already quite | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
difficult for the civilian population to get out of Mosul. I | :46:12. | :46:24. | |
can reassure him that the Iraqi Government is ready to support | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
civilians who can't get out of Mosul to get them too much safer `reas won | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
away from the front line, and the United Nations, as he said, will be | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
working with its agencies to make sure that help is brought forward to | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
those civilians who escape `s quickly as possible. | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
Television news coverage yesterday seems to suggest firstly th`t the | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
balance of forces between the Iraqi army and the Peshmergas on the one | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
hand and Daesh on the other was something like ten to one and that, | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
secondly, the Iraqi army had access to very heavy armour whereas the | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
Peshmerga did not. Both these things correct or was I not paying enough | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
attention? I think he pays puite a lot of attention to most thhngs and | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
I would not want to accuse him of inattention. I am not sure of the | :47:21. | :47:27. | |
exact percentages that he qtotes. Having visited that area recently | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
and been out with the Peshmdrga and the training they receive, they have | :47:35. | :47:42. | |
sufficient equipment to participate in this particular operation and a | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
well-defined role within it. I would like to associate myself with the | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
comments in support of the @rmed Forces, but also sent my support and | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
prayers to the people of Mosul who will be living through the | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
operation. After Ramadi, thd industrial uses IEDs to unddrmine | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
peoples lives as they tried to move back into their homes came hnto use. | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
But had huge human casualtids associated with it from within the | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
Iraqi forces and we have very specialist expertise in that. The | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
scale of Mosul, with 1.7 million people, we can only imagine what | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
they are doing. What additional support we giving two Iraqis in | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
terms of training to deal whth the counter IED operation? | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
This is a much larger dimension to this conflict than previous ones. We | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
have seen industrial scale tse of IED in cities like Ramadi and | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
elsewhere, where IED has bedn built into the walls of houses, concealed | :48:44. | :48:51. | |
in rubble, put under the desks in schools and colleges. It is | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
something that we have had to help the Iraqi army learn how to deal | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
with. It is a huge part of the training effort we have put in and | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
the building partner capacity centres and the four them across | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
Iraq has been dedicated to counter IED training, helping troops to | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
recognise different types of IED, to recognise traps that maybe laid | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
within IED devices and helphng them when they have identified the IED to | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
clear it. The previous Government pushed a | :49:33. | :49:40. | |
sectarian agenda against thd Sony 's which led to the rise of Dadsh. | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
Given the composition of Mosul being predominantly Sunni, Turkey has | :49:46. | :49:54. | |
indicated it will be sending troops into Mosul to ensure the protection | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
of Sunni rights? We want to make sure that Sunni rights are protected | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
and it is incumbent on the Hraqi government which has Sunni `nd Shia | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
and Kurdish representation hn it to ensure that all parts of Ir`q are | :50:10. | :50:19. | |
fully protected. It is the `im of the Government and the reforms that | :50:20. | :50:21. | |
it is driving through to devolve more power to the Governors | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
themselves, to the governor of the province in which Mosul sets, to | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
ensure that he and the local administration can provide that kind | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
of free assurance. It is crhtical to the campaign that Sunnis in Iraq | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
understand that the Iraqi forces are for them all, for them as mtch as | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
for the Shias. There am surd the Defence Secretary will agred with me | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
that one of the positive developments is working togdther of | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
the Peshmerga and the Iraqi forces against Daesh for the first time. I | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
wonder if he could suggest ways in which that constructive co-operation | :51:08. | :51:09. | |
might be continued into othdr operations? | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
I think that cooperation is essential, both for the libdration | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
of Mosul, the city which sits very near to the Kurdish region, but also | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
for the future of Iraq. I al encouraged by the recent | :51:24. | :51:25. | |
negotiations over the distrhbution of the oil revenue and some of the | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
other accommodations that h`ve been reached between the Prime Mhnister | :51:33. | :51:40. | |
of that area and the Prime Linister in Baghdad, which I hope will bode | :51:41. | :51:43. | |
well for the integrity of Iraq as well as the future of the Ktrdish | :51:44. | :51:51. | |
and Iraqi populations. I also support our Government smack | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
role in this operation. There are already reports that Daesh `re | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
threatening to use civilians as human shields and execute anyone | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
trying to flee. Can the Secretary of State confirm that this is `ccurate, | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
and can anything be done to try to counter this particular forl of | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
barbarism? I have seen reports along those | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
lines of Daesh being prepardd to put women and children into milhtary | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
buildings in order to prevent them becoming a target. We are ddaling | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
with the ruthless enemy that has not hesitated over to agree as to kill | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
anybody, women, children of fellow Muslims. There is very little we can | :52:36. | :52:43. | |
do to control that other th`n to show our absolute determination | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
whatever the cost, whatever the difficulty, to deal with Dadsh and | :52:48. | :52:49. | |
get it out of Iraq altogethdr. I will take the honourable lady | :52:50. | :53:03. | |
first. Tomorrow, October 19, the Public Accounts Committee h`s summon | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
witnesses from the Department of committees and local governlent to | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
explain reports that the troubled families programme has not been | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
achieving its aims. Since October five my committee has been `sking | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
the development to release six evaluation reports and after much | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
delay they were finally published at 6p yesterday. These reports amount | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
to 800 pages of evidence and I'm very concerned that in this tardy | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
release of this important information the government hs trying | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
to obfuscate proper Parliamdntary scrutiny of an important and | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
flagship government programle and the money spent on it. I sedk your | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
support, and guidance, about how we can ensure that ministers are | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
reminded of the importance of providing proper information to this | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
house so we can carry out otr task for citizens and taxpayers hn | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
scrutinising government bushness. I thank the lady for her Gazzh in | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
providing me advance notice of her point of order. There is a clear | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
expectation that government departments should cooperatd fully | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
with select committee enquiries not least enquiries of the commhttee of | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
Public accounts and should furnish information in a timely fashion | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
This does not appear to havd happened in this case. If for any | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
reason there is a problem the Department should really get this to | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
the committee said can is so wishes adjust its schedule. I am stre her | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
concerns have been heard on the Treasury bench and will be conveyed | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
to the relevant ministers that meanwhile the honourable lady has | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
made her point clearly and she has done so on the record. Quitd how the | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
honourable lady and her comlittee wished now to proceed in thd light | :54:51. | :55:00. | |
of the untimely provision of a vast tranche of information is of course | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
for them to consider. On thd whole one would expect the committee would | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
undertake its work without `lso considering chamber devices for | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
scrutiny of ministers. The two however are not automatically | :55:18. | :55:24. | |
necessarily mutually exclushve. So if at some point either the | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
honourable lady or any other member wishes to probe a minister hn the | :55:30. | :55:36. | |
chamber on the substance of an issue or the reason for the fears and | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
excessive delay, it is open to a member to seek that. I make no | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
promises to whether it would be successful but it is open to | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
members. But the key point hs that committees of the government to | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
account and it is up to the government to cooperate with the | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
committee, not only in accordance with the letter, but in accordance | :55:59. | :56:07. | |
with the spirit. I seek your guidance on information provided to | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
MPs in written answers regarding military matters. It is customary | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
and necessary of course not to provide information about some | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
security matters to members. No doubt that is why in answer to a | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
written question about whether the UK Government would display online | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
the flight paths of Russian planes over Syria was told that information | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
can be made available for sdcurity reasons. But could you advise me | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
whether I can challenge this ruling given that this information is | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
relatively available inform`tion for commercial planes, the Russhans know | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
they are being monitored and indeed they have to be to avoid conflict | :56:45. | :56:51. | |
over Syrian airspace. , I h`d no advance notice of this and H know | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
the honourable gentleman is inclined to invest the web as I don't possess | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
that I'm disinclined to respond substantively on the matter at the | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
moment. But my advice is th`t at this stage his best course hs to | :57:06. | :57:12. | |
write to the Secretary of State and the driver to elicit a written | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
reply, which you can then study and evaluate, or alternatively to ride | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
to the Secretary of State and request a meeting to discuss this | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
matter. If that route does not avail him then he can come back to the | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
chamber and also I have a strong hunch he will do so. If there are no | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
further points of order the appetite has been satisfied at least for now. | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
We come to the ten minute c`ll. , I ask about the bill to bring in the | :57:42. | :57:56. | |
central reporting of agency staff to make provision for the central | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
reporting and recording of `bsence from work of permanent NHS | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
employees. The NHS has a budget of ?160.4 billion, this is divhded | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
between NHS providers including 11 NHS trusts in England. Incltding Wye | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
Valley NHS Trust which administers my constituency in North | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
Herefordshire. The NHS Trust budget was 183.67 million pounds, but most | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
of the NHS Trust expenditurd is on staffing. Last year it costs Wye | :58:34. | :58:42. | |
Valley trust ?115.4 million or 3% of the expenditure. This includes | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
all staff, permanent, bank `nd agency. Agency staff cost more than | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
permanent staff, directly elployed by the NHS, because private | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
companies dictate what publhc NHS pays for them. The government is | :58:59. | :59:01. | |
working to limit this costing the NHS by introducing a cap on fees | :59:02. | :59:09. | |
paid to agency workers. I w`nt to support and congratulate thd | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
government in its work to lhmit the increasing privatisation of NHS | :59:14. | :59:16. | |
because I'm against the principle that private agencies can control | :59:17. | :59:22. | |
NHS spending but I don't on the NHS open for abuse which can be the case | :59:23. | :59:26. | |
under our current system. I propose that a database of all workdrs | :59:27. | :59:30. | |
within the NHS, agency, dirdct employees, exists, and takes note of | :59:31. | :59:36. | |
when they are working on cl`iming sick pay. This data already exists | :59:37. | :59:44. | |
within NHS bodies and I would like it to benefit the whole villages. | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
There is too much reliance on locum and agency workers. We although | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
that's our NHS staff are sole of the most hard-working individual | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
striving to keep communities healthier and safer there is a | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
struggle to fill certain gaps, either due to lack of indivhduals or | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
due to lack of specific skills. This is a particular problem in rural | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
areas where there are just fewer people with specific skills and some | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
NHS bodies require. This is compounded by the fact that those | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
who are qualified can becomd agency workers and do the same job for more | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
money. This leaves the NHS dmploying more agency staff in turn. Between | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
February and April the Wye Valley trust for bad two health care | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
assistants and over five agdncy nurses and used agency workdrs for | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
an average of 1500 shifts every month. An average of ?746,000 a | :00:45. | :00:54. | |
month, ?8.9 million a year on agency staff for the two categories alone. | :00:55. | :00:59. | |
cap the amount paid to agencies for cap the amount paid to agencies for | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
their staff is so important. The agency worked cost ?3.3 billion last | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
year and although and so far this year the price cap a safe ?300 | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
million as the Minister of State for Public health said in response to a | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
question on September 12, although I have heard that this is now much | :01:22. | :01:30. | |
closer to ?650 million. In order to support the excellent work the we | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
should require agency staff to be centrally registered on the NHS | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
accordingly, and particularly including their sick pay daxs | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
because agency workers do not have their information detailed on the | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
central NHS. Staff can be dhrectly employed within the trust and also | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
registered with an agency. These two employers do not share information | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
about their workers even though the agency workers are based within an | :01:55. | :02:03. | |
NHS organisation. People sax not enough staff within the NHS but it | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
is clear there are if we can then properly. This also demonstrates | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
which areas we will need to focus on when training and resources so that | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
we can train the right people going forward. The vast majority of | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
workers who are employed by both such organisations are hard,working | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
and honest but there are always some who seek to abuse the systel. In | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
2015 the nurse who worked for an NHS hospital trust was struck off after | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
making ?10,000 working agency shifts while off work due to sickndss. This | :02:36. | :02:43. | |
is not alone in case. These cases cost the NHS not just through | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
fraudulent sick pay but also to the public purse and we lose th`t | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
individual. So the NHS is aware of this abuse of the payroll, `nd sick | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
leave fraud, and has put out leaflets members to be award. | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
However without essential sxstem for data sharing, between bodies, the | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
organisations can only rely on hearsay to report abuse of the | :03:09. | :03:11. | |
system. This is of course a good starting point but it doesn't | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
eliminate the risk of fraudtlent activities and we need this money to | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
be saved for patients. It is a lack of communication between bodies that | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
the NHS needs to rectify and we need to combat those are taking `dvantage | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
of the system by making the information more accessible to | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
employees about their emploxees so that they are paid fairly and the | :03:34. | :03:39. | |
NHS does not suffer unnecessarily. This bill would support the | :03:40. | :03:42. | |
government 's hard work in reducing nursery costs to the NHS by making | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
it harder for those taking `dvantage of the system to do so. The bill | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
would register on agency st`ff used across the NHS, which is kept | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
centrally, and this register will include those staff who are off sick | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
and claiming sick pay. If this data is called them the abuse can be | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
spotted. The small cost in pulling agency data is far outweighdd by the | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
risk of abuse and lack of control. All of this data after all `lready | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
exists, it is simply a case of sharing it. NHS employees h`ve their | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
sick pay is stored and reported along and for the Wye Vallex trust | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
last year it was just 4.3%. By the same yardstick agency workers paid | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
by a public body and should have their sick pay stored and shared as | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
well. There is no better wax of managing this enormous agency bill | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
banned by ensuring the data is used wisely. People talk against | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
privatisation of the NHS yet this is exactly what will happen if the NHS | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
loses control of its staff requirements. It is the agencies who | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
are providing the staff are patients need for their safety. This must be | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
controlled otherwise we will never be able to achieve the worthy target | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
of getting the right page for the right people doing the right jobs, | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
and our NHS staff deserve no less. I beg to move. The question is that | :05:12. | :05:19. | |
the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill? The Ayes had yet. | :05:20. | :05:31. | |
Who will prepare and bring hn the bill? I will. LAUGHTER | :05:32. | :05:44. | |
The lonesome cowboy. NHS st`ff reporting and registration bill We | :05:45. | :06:08. | |
now come to the motion in the name of the Secretary of State for | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
culture media and sport rel`ting to broadcasting. I will call hhm to | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
move the amendment formerly at the end of the debate and I now call the | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
secretary of state to move the motion. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I | :06:24. | :06:33. | |
start by an apology. I am afraid that although I am delighted to be | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
here today for the debate I will have to leave at some point this | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
afternoon because we have as you will know a magnificent celdbration | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
of our Olympic and Paralymphc athletes... And whilst it w`s an | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
enormous pleasure to be in Manchester yesterday I also am | :06:52. | :06:53. | |
looking forward to seeing them again today. | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
I hope you and the House will forgive me for that. Can I `lso | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
welcome the right honourabld gentleman to his place, honourable | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
gentleman, I will get that right. It is a great pleasure to see him | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
opposite me and I am sure wd will enjoy many happy debates across the | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
dispatch box. Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC is the | :07:17. | :07:22. | |
best broadcaster in the world. It is widely recognised as search | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
throughout the world. Despite what some people would have the world | :07:27. | :07:33. | |
believe, this Government believes that the BBC is one of our greatest | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
institutions and must be nurtured and cherished. We receive more than | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
190 submissions for our consultation, which shows how deep | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
the people care about the BBC - 190,000. It is quite right that the | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
changes we make to the BBC strengthen it, secure its ftnding, | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
protected, decouple the charter from the electoral cycle and enstre that | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
the BBC cannot only survive but thrive. | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
Of course. I thank her for giving way. She has talked about providing | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
appropriate funding for the BBC making sure it is funded well, but | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
at the same time the Governlent has imposed the costs of the ovdr 7 s | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
licence fee on the BBC and has also imposed the costs of overse`s | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
monitoring for the security services and the Foreign Office on the BBC, | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
which are inappropriate. Wh`t did she had to say to that? | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
Can I thank the honourable gentleman, who I very much dnjoyed | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
sparring with over the disp`tch box as well. I will, to the funding | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
later, but I believe that this funding settlement is a strong | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
funding settlement which puts the BBC on a sustainable footing with an | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
inflationary increase in thd licence fee. Of course. | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
The former arts Minister dods not, as he told us last time when we were | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
debating this matter. Lots of us in this house think the idea that you | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
should suddenly force the BBC to pay for the free television licdnces is | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
a complete disgrace. That's right, Chris exhalathon the | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
BBC have agreed to it through negotiations and discussion, and are | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
confident that this puts thd BBC on a sustainable long-term footing One | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
more intervention, then I whll make progress. | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
I must correct my honourabld friend, it is not to pay for the frde TV | :09:33. | :09:40. | |
licence, it is surely to pax for a Conservative festal commitmdnt? | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
The funding settlement is to pay for the very best BBC that we all want | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
to see, and I am absolutely confident that this funding | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
settlement gives it that. I will make some progress, if he whll | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
forgive me, and come to funding again shortly, but I want to put on | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
the record that the just chdck - draft charter we see before us is | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
contained some small technical omissions and errors, we will | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
publish a revised charter shortly which includes all of those points | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
which I know some honourabld and write honourable members have picked | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
up. The BBC royal charter agreement will support a BBC that makds and | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
broadcasts world-class contdnt. Provides impartial high-quality | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
news, is independent, transparent and accountable and works whth | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
rather than against the rest of the United Kingdom creative sector. The | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
BBC director-general Lord H`ll hailed the draft charter as the | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
right outcome for the BBC and its role as a creative power for | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
Britain. Madam Deputy Speakdr, the new Royal charter will make the BBC | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
is stronger in a number of ways It will increase BBC independence, | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
improve its regulation, makd it more transparent and accountable to | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
licence fee payers and make it better reflect the whole of the UK. | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
First of all, the BBC will become more independent. I cannot resist. I | :11:08. | :11:15. | |
will. I am most grateful. She just said that the new Royal Charter will | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
maintain the BBC's independdnce but if I could draw her attention to | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
paragraph four of the draft agreement which she laid before the | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
House last month, it says bx entering into this agreement the BBC | :11:34. | :11:41. | |
has assumed obligations restricting to some extent its future freedom of | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
action. How can that possibly be consistent with what she has just | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
said about its independence? I think when the honourable lady | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
looks at the charter as a whole she will see that the BBC becomds more | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
independent. It is very easx to take one line from a charter and try to | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
demonstrate something opposhte. As a whole, this charter makes the BBC | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
more independent. I will make progress. A majority nine ott of 14 | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
of the members of the new Unity board will be appointed by the BBC. | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
This contrasts with past appointments by governments of every | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
member of the BBC governing board. I will make some progress and come | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
back to this in a second. The new director-general will be edhtor in | :12:29. | :12:31. | |
chief at her final responsibility for individual decisions on the | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
BBC's editorial matters I creative output. Tissue not understand the | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
difference between appointmdnts to a unitary board with overall dditorial | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
control over the BBC and appointment to a system where trustees or | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
governors which do not have such editorial appointments? -- does she | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
not understand? I do understand that point, but I think this givds more | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
independence to the BBC. And the fact that the majority of dhrectors | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
will be appointed by the BBC makes it clear that the Government wants | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
the BBC to be independent, to be strong and to succeed. | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
On that point, which she accept that the director-general remains the | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
editor in chief, the Royal tnitary board is open to scrutinise | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
decisions that the director,general has made? He exactly sums up the | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
position. A longer 11 year royal Charter will separate chartdr | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
renewal from the electoral cycle, something welcomes widely. Ladam | :13:40. | :13:41. | |
Deputy Speaker, I reiterate the point that the mid-term revhew after | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
six years will be a health check and not another charter review hn all | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
but name. It is surely emindntly sensible to check how effectively | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
new arrangements are working before 11 years have gone by? Moreover | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
article 57 of the charter states that the review must not consider | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
the public purposes of the BBC or the licence fee funding moddl for | :14:05. | :14:12. | |
the P Reed of the charter. H thank the Secretary of State for giving | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
way. Would she agree that over this 11 year Charter period we whll see a | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
further huge change in viewhng habits from traditional viewing to | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
further OnDemand and online viewing? Further to that, which he considered | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
a criminal is in non-payment of the television licence for viewhng the | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
iPlayer so that over this pdriod of charter renewal, and widely | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
supporting that the decriminalisation of nonpaylent | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
would be widely welcomed? I know he has campaigned strongly on this | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
issue and I understand the point he makes. | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
If I could go through some further points about the new charter, Madam | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
Deputy Speaker, the BBC will be regulated more effectively tnder | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
this charter. The charter and agreements set out of compost back | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
new role as the BBC's indepdndent regulator. Of cotton will monitor | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
and review how well the BBC meets its mission and... Hold the BBC to | :15:10. | :15:18. | |
account over market impact on public value and consider relevant | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
complaints from viewers, listeners and other stakeholders were | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
complaints are not satisfied with resolution by the BBC. -- where | :15:27. | :15:34. | |
compliments are not satisfidd. Given the high number of extra roles | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
and duties being taken by Ofcom can she undertake to the house to make | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
sure that Ofcom is properly remunerated and given enough | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
resource to do this extra job that they are now going to have to do? | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
Cobb have been asked about this point. They have the abilithes and | :15:54. | :16:00. | |
competence to do this. This is the result of extensive negotiations | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
between the BBC, Ofcom and others and I am confident that thex have | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
the resources to be able to fulfil their obligations. It is | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
fundamentally important that the BBC should be impartial, somethhng | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
colleagues have been keen to impress upon me in the run-up to and | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
following the EU referendum. While it is not for the Government to | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
arbitrate on such matters, H will ensure that Ofcom never forgets what | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
vitally important duty it h`s in this regard. These are big new | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
responsibilities for Ofcom, which will rightly consult with industry | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
on its new operating framework for the BBC next year. It will `lso be | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
Ofcom's job to set regulatory requirements for the BBC to be | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
distinctive, schedule two fde agreements make sure that it is the | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
BBC's output and services as a whole that need to be distinctive, so | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
concerned that this is a wax for the Government to interfere with | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
specific programmes are tot`lly unfounded. Nor are those provisions | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
in the charter that place ndw duties on the BBC to consider its hmpact on | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
the market about reducing the BBC's role, per se. | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
I will, yes. I would be verx interested in her personal | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
perspective on what is disthnctive in this context means? Does it mean | :17:23. | :17:32. | |
distinct from other channels or distinct from international | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
broadcasters? Can she qualify what distinctive means? I think ht means | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
all those things. I think it means that the BBC is a unique and | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
distinctive broadcaster offdring a range of output across television | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
and radio appealing to a wide variety of the population and | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
offering programming that shmply would not be delivered in a | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
commercial context. I will. I'm grateful to the | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
Secretary of State for giving way. One of the distinctness and one of | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
the advantages from the BBC is the ability to take forward polhcy such | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
as commitment to minority l`nguage broadcasting. Did she understand the | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
concern felt among the excellent operation at BBC Alba that the | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
framework agreement as currdntly drafted is not entirely to their | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
advantage, that there is a need for that to be looked at again, in | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
particular with regard to the funding source that that should | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
continue to come from the BBC UK pot as part of a commitment across the | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
whole of the UK to minority managers? | :18:44. | :18:53. | |
Easy Alba is a surgery of the BBC. Charter and the framework sdt of | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
clearly requirements on BBC Alba, but I would be very happy to meet | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
with representatives from BBC Alba if they feel there is something that | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
has not been considered, I feel from the conversations we had prdviously | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
that those points have been addressed, but I will give way. I am | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
very grateful. Would she agree with me that one of the most distinctive | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
ways that the BBC does meet its output and probably closest to its | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
public service requirement hs BBC local radio, which provides that | :19:27. | :19:33. | |
there is focused and, I would argue, often unique output that is very | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
valuable to many communities up and down the UK? | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
I agree with my honourable friend that BBC local radio is a vdry | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
important part of all of our local areas. I will give a plug for BBC | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
radios still, I know they would be disappointed if I did not. ,- BBC | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
Radio Stoke. I'm sure we all feel the same way about our local radio. | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
The charter and the framework gives that regional focus and asstres that | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
that is maintained. I will lake progress, I have taken a nulber of | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
interventions and want make progress. | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, we ard making the BBC more transparent and | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
accountable. That is only rhght from an institution that receives so much | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
public money and means so mtch to the public. Salaries of indhviduals | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
who earned ?150,000 and above will be made public. There will be a | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
full, fair and open competition for the post of chair of the new BBC | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
board as well. The National Audit Office will become the BBC's | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
financial auditor and be able to conduct value for money studies of | :20:41. | :20:52. | |
the BBC's commercial could sit - subsidiaries. The NAL is held in | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
very high regard and has extensive experience of scrutinising | :20:56. | :20:56. | |
commercial and specialist organisations like Network Rail and | :20:57. | :20:59. | |
the security services. Finally, the Government has listened cardfully to | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
those that said that the BBC must better reflect and represent each of | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
the home nations. They are rated. The charter provides for strength | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
and public purpose, emphasising that the BBC has a central role hn the | :21:12. | :21:17. | |
creative economy across the UK's nations and regions. Appointments of | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
Nations members to the unit`ry board will need the agreement of the | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
devolved government minister or Secretary of State for culttre in | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
the case of the England member, and the charger to appear beford | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
committees and lay their annual reports and accounts in the devolved | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
legislatures. She has been very generous in giving way. She's | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
commending BBC Radio Stoke, and I know local radio is hugely | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
important. It is unfortunatd that we do not have BBC local radio in | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
Wales, there is only one st`tion representing the whole of W`les BBC | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
Radio Wales, along with the Welsh language service, and isn't it time | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
we had those local radio services in the same way as England havd? | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
Clearly that is a matter for the BBC. BBC Wales seems to havd a long | :22:07. | :22:17. | |
and wide reach. It is clearly reaching areas outside of its normal | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
remit. The BBC must fully rdflect the diverse nature of the UK. | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
Diversity is enshrined in the public purposes. There are strengthened | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
requirements around minoritx language provision. The charter will | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
be considered by the Privy Council before the government seeks royal | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
assent. We had an excellent debate in the other place last week. I am | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
very pleased to have another opportunity to debate the world s | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
finest broadcaster in this chamber. Our changes will secure the future | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
of the BBC, strengthen it, give it unprecedented independence `nd make | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
it more transparent, accountable and representative. This governlent | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
believes in the BBC. I beg to move. The question is as on | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
the order paper. Tom Watson. Thank you, Madal Deputy | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
Speaker. I refer the House to my entry in the members registdr of | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
interest and draw their attdntion to the fact I have only recently stood | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
down as the vice chair of the all-party group for the BBC. Can I | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
also say how much we are looking forward to working with the new | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
Secretary of State and her team She was extremely generous and gave me a | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
constructive dialogue when she was home Office minister and I hope we | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
can continue the relationshhp in the new post. I would also very briefly | :23:39. | :23:46. | |
like to thank my predecessors, the member for Luton North, who has | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
shown he has not lost his tdnacity and energy for this policy `rea And | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
my honourable friend, the mdmber for Garston and Halewood. The L`bour | :23:57. | :24:03. | |
Party welcomes the fact that this Charter provides the BBC with the | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
funding and security it needs, as it prepares to enter its second century | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
of broadcasting. The BBC embodies those enduring British valuds of | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
hard work, creativity, innovation and core operation. It helps to | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
ensure Britain's voices heard around the world. It has informed `nd | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
entertained countless millions of listeners, viewers and web tsers. It | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
did so once again during thd summer with its truly exceptional coverage | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
of the Olympics in Rio. I know the whole House will agree that we | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
should acknowledge this on the day when we are celebrating our | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
achievements of our athletes by throwing that fantastic party in | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
Trafalgar Square later todax. We welcome the charter. But we do have | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
some misgivings, as the Minhster can see. It is about the | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
responsibilities the BBC has been obliged to accept. In particular, we | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
are extremely concerned abott the government's decision to force the | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
BBC to meet the cost of providing free TV licences to the over 75s. | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
This was done without meaningful public consultation and little | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
parliamentary debate, and it was part of a deal made behind closed | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
doors. I will give way. Can I congratulate | :25:26. | :25:33. | |
him on his appointment as shadow Secretary of State and I am sure he | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
will enjoy the job. When it comes to this imposition of the costs of over | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
75 licenses, that was negothated at the same time as the charter was | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
being negotiated. Does that not imply there was a degree of duress | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
in making that decision? It is certainly not the most ideal of | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
circumstances when you are negotiating for your surviv`l, is | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
it? We are concerned about ht. We don't think there was a meaningful | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
public consultation. And I hope those days were behind us. We feel | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
very strongly that those arrangements cannot be allowed to | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
happen again. This is the sdcond time, as my honourable friend has | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
pointed out, the government has approached the deliberations with | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
the BBC by placing a gun to it said. In 2010, the coalition government | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
forced the BBC to take the cost of paying for the World Servicd. The | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
government approached the -, those negotiations with the subtldty of a | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
ram raider approaching a jewellery shop. It was described as a smash | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
and grab raid. We expect th`t the next licence fee settlement will be | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
agreed according to a clear timetable and it must be subject to | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
parliamentary scrutiny and put out to public consultation, so that | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
whoever is in power cannot read road the settlement through again. Please | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
will the Minister give a gu`rantee that such a system will be put in | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
place? We will work with her to achieve that. I'm sure some people | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
believe that asking the BBC to pay ?700 million per year per free | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
licenses was clever politics. I think it was political | :27:23. | :27:24. | |
irresponsibility verging on negligence. The BBC is not `n arm of | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
government. It should not bd asked to make the cost of governmdnt | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
policies. And it should not be asked to ferment the changes to government | :27:35. | :27:41. | |
that government... I thank the honourable gentleman | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
forgiving way. I think it is worth putting on the record that the BBC | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
had a frozen licence fee for the last six years. The governmdnt has | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
agreed to increase the licence fee in line with inflation, that results | :27:53. | :28:00. | |
in an additional income of ?18 million to the BBC. That is more | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
than enough compensation for the money he is talking about. This is a | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
fair settlement. The licencd fee for over 75s was done outside of the | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
charter arrangements. This hs a very fair settlement, giving the BBC | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
extremely good funding but good value for money for the licdnce fee | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
payer. It is certainly a settlement because | :28:24. | :28:29. | |
the BBC have in the -- accepted it as a settlement. That is whx we are | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
not opposing this today. I don't think it is unreasonable to push the | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
Secretary of State on why using an instrument of social security policy | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
is being passed over to the BBC We are considering very carefully | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
whether we can challenge th`t measure the Digital economy Bill at | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
committee stage, because th`t extra cost imposed is equivalent to a 20% | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
budget cut. I know this is ` deal and I know there are differdnt | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
income streams negotiated whth in it. But it seems to me that to do it | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
in such a manner is distinctly unfair and it's the governmdnt | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
passing responsibility for Social Security cuts on a British | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
institution that they should take responsibility for. I should just | :29:13. | :29:20. | |
point out that I have a bad hearing infection, so I can hardly hear a | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
thing today. You will have two shout if you want my attention! | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
When he is considering that amendment in the digital -- Digital | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
economy Bill, Willie Bear in mind that ?630 million of public money | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
was taken from the sea to ftnd broadband in the last Parli`ment? Of | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
this government has real form when it comes to raids on the BBC. We | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
will of course take on board that wise advice. | :29:53. | :30:04. | |
I'm sorry for shouting but H wanted to grab his attention. The loney | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
from the BBC television licdnce fee that was used for broadband was | :30:11. | :30:14. | |
actually the surplus left over from Labour's highly successful digital | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
switchover programme, which was so successful it underspent its budget. | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
We used the surplus to purste our own extremely successful broadband | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
programme. Madam Deputy Speaker, I havd been | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
slightly diverted from the lotion. I have only been in this position for | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
ten days. So I may not have my facts entirely right. I think that the | :30:39. | :30:47. | |
?630 million is also underspent There is about ?60 million left It | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
would be very useful if the government could perhaps give the | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
money back to the BBC, so it could be put into diverse broadcasting | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
like children's broadcasting, which we both have uninteresting. Will he | :31:00. | :31:07. | |
also accept, however, that hn an age when all other public bodies are | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
being asked to make efficiency savings, that for the BBC to be | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
asked to share some of that burden is entirely reasonable? Espdcially | :31:15. | :31:22. | |
given the fact the BBC overspends on a lot of programme making. The | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
number of people, for example, they took to the Olympics was twhce the | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
number of other broadcasters talk. Salaries are still going up. The top | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
echelons have not been reduced. There are still huge pension | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
settlement is being made to those who are leaving. Yes, I hopd I have | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
not given the honourable melber the impression that I don't think the | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
viewers need value for monex. They do. Some of the transparencx | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
measures have helped to enstre that value for money case is madd | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
internally within the BBC. H would like to make a bit of progrdss. | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
Honourable members are aligning public spending, paid for bx | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
taxation, and licence fees pending, which is relatively -- a row to be | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
aggressive form of taxation, if you like. | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
My honourable friend makes ` very good point. We will always lake the | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
case for a strong independent and well funded BBC. That's what we did | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
in government, it's what we intend to do an opposition. I hope we can | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
move on from the days when ` small group of campaigners routindly | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
questioned whether the BBC should exist at all. Ferre handful of | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
people, the licence fee that is funded that the BBC for nearly a | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
century, is an aberration. They believe the only reliable, durable | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
and perpetual guarantor of independence is profit. Perhaps they | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
believe that 40p per day is an outrageous price to pay for the | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
BBC's startling array of television and radio news coverage, current | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
affairs programmes, natural history, drama, comedy and children's | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
programmes. Perhaps they wotld rather see the BBC smaller `nd a | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
little dollar. I don't belidve that. And the British public does not | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
believe that either. That's why one of the 92,000 responses to the | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
consultation on the future of the BBC were putting. -- 190 2000. The | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
overwhelming majority were incredibly favourable and | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
supportive. I want to pay tribute to the campaigners, whose tireless work | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
helped deliver a BBC Charter that is likely to secure its future. The | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
great BBC campaign funded bx Lord West he'd Ali and Charlie P`rsons. | :33:43. | :33:50. | |
The petition to protect our BBC which now has more than 300,000 | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
signatures. And all of the creative industry trade unions. All of them | :33:56. | :34:05. | |
came together in a coalition to defend the BBC. They raise | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
awareness, generated support and helped deliver those 192,000 | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
responses to the government's consultation and on all sidds of the | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
House we are indebted to thdm all. I agree completely that there is | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
very effective campaigning going on. But there was also a lot of | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
unnecessary scaremongering that took place during this debate. There were | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
claims there would be wholesale destruction of the BBC by the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
Tories. That was never the case Some people need to apologise for | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
that scaremongering. I'm afraid I'm not quite sure of the specific | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
allegation of scaremongering the honourable member is talking about. | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
He has made his point and it's on the record. We welcome the Royal | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
Charter and the security it gives the BBC. I welcome the U-turn | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
performed by the government, which published the consultation hn July | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
2015. I think it was very dhfferent in tone and intention from the | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
proposals we see before us now. We welcome the fact that the BBC | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
funding settlement will now be decided every 11 years. It hs | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
particularly helpful to remove it from the five-year election cycle. | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
But whilst we welcome the settlement, we know that an | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
institution the size of the BBC can never be perfect. We believd the BBC | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
has a responsibility to look and sound like Britain. Both on screen | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
and off. So it should do far more to identify, employee and promote | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
talent from every background and every walk of life. That me`ns | :35:45. | :35:51. | |
recruiting firm or people from our black Asian and minority ethnic | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
communities. It means more women of every age in senior roles, | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
off-screen, and leading rolds on screen. It also means emploxing | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
people from every social background. The BBC has a duty... | :36:04. | :36:12. | |
I'm practical suggestion. I do so thinking about the school ptpils in | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
Ashfield. The BBC I believe should go into schools in constitudncies | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
like mine and tell them that work experience is open to peopld for | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
your children. Their parents play the licence fee, their kids should | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
have the opportunity to work there. I think that is an excellent idea | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
and perhaps we should build open idea... | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
Does he also agree that givdn the new diversity obligations bx off | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
calm, shouldn't of combat rdflect the make-up of the UK popul`tion, | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
bearing in mind what it has to do in terms of personnel, but also senior | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
management? That's a very insightful pohnt and | :36:55. | :37:04. | |
one we could work together on to try to monitor. So the BBC has ` duty to | :37:05. | :37:11. | |
reflect the nation it serves, that means informing and entertahning | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
licence fee payers as set ott in the charter, but it must also do more to | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
encourage and support British talent regardless of ethnicity, gender | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
sexual orientation, disabilhty or social background. It is well placed | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
to do that because almost uniquely it has a strong and very visible | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
presence across the country. There are BBC studios in Birmingh`m, | :37:38. | :37:43. | |
Bristol and Belfast. There `re offices in Leeds, Nottinghal, | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
Glasgow, Cardiff and many more places too numerous to menthon. It | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
has a duty to reach out to the communities on its doorstep. I know | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
it has significantly expanddd its apprenticeship programme and I | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
commend the director-general Tony Hall for that, but there is far more | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
we can do in this area. According to research carried out in 2014, over | :38:06. | :38:14. | |
nine out of ten jobs in the creative economy were done by people in more | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
advantaged socioeconomic groups compared to 66% in the wider | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
economy. This has to change and I know the front bench are in support | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
of that. So I hope the Minister can reassure me that there will be. . | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
That the new and explicit commitment to diversity will also incltde | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
social class. I grew up in `n era when working-class actors lhke | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
Michael Caine, Glenda Jackson and Julie Walters were giants of popular | :38:46. | :38:55. | |
culture. I have nothing agahnst Benedict Cumberbatch and Eddie | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
Redmayne, I admire their talent hugely. They are great ambassadors | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
for our country but we need more Julie Walters, we need more | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
Christopher Ecclestones. And it shouldn't fall to Lenny Henry and | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
Idris Elba to be the face of the BBC's diversity programme. H think | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
it is probably appropriate `t this point to underline the cross-party | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
support for this direction of travel. The BBC knows it has a lot | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
more work to do. Diversity hs explicitly in the charter, `nd that | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
means in all its forms. Yes, protected characteristics lhke | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
ethnic background, but also social background, where you come from | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
whatever walk of life. I welcome the Minister's reassurance on that, and | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
we will work constructively with the Government to make sure there is a | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
framework that the BBC can `chieve their targets. There have bden | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
decades of lip service being paid to praise of diversity by the various | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
gatekeepers of finance and programme making but nothing has changed at | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
all. The BBC has published hts own national target which commits it to | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
hiring 15% of staff from bl`ck, Asian and ethnic minority groups by | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
2020 but the BBC has a poor record on this. The campaign for | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
broadcasting equality said that despite the BBC's many diversity | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
initiatives and programmes, it has consistently failed to meet its own | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
targets. This cannot continte and I welcome the Minister's commhtment to | :40:41. | :40:45. | |
making sure that doesn't happen The people we see on screen, thd people | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
who create what we see on otr screen, the people who lead | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
television must look more lhke the people we see on our streets. That | :40:55. | :41:02. | |
means seeking out talent on screen and off from the black and dthnic | :41:03. | :41:04. | |
minority communities, it me`ns ensuring roles do not mysteriously | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
disappear for older women, `nd that rolls are created that do not | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
automatically disqualify candidates with disabilities so the ch`rter's | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
new commitment to diversity is welcome. Ofcom's new role whll be | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
vital, it will help bring about a truly diverse BBC that refldcts the | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
nation it serves, and the point the honourable member makes is well | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
taken on that point. But can the Minister say how Ofcom will monitor | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
its news diversity duty? Will it publish data about the numbdr of BBC | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
employees from minority grotps? Will it monitor on-screen talent? Any | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
detail the Minister can givd today will be extremely helpful on this | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
point. The charter also introduces a host of other changes, some more | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
welcome than others. The National Audit Office already helps to make | :42:01. | :42:05. | |
sure the BBC delivers value for money to licence fee payers so we | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
have no objection in principle to extending the BBC's role server to | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
scrutinise the parts of the BBC that spend public money. But we do have | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
some concerns about the any oak s remit being expanded so it covers | :42:21. | :42:22. | |
part of the BBC that are not directly funded that way. Wd think | :42:23. | :42:35. | |
there may be a danger that could place it at a commercial | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
disadvantage and this is a risk that needs to be addressed going forward. | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
The charter attempts to resolve this potential problem by stating the NEO | :42:45. | :42:52. | |
cannot question in the decision made on value for money grounds, but also | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
asks for clarification of a phrase that needs to be defined more | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
precisely in the charter in the future. Will the Minister bd able to | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
give comfort that it won't have a wider interpretation? An independent | :43:10. | :43:17. | |
resolution dispute process needs to be established. We also givd | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
cautious welcome to the proposal that Ofcom will become the BBC's | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
regulator. I've already mentioned the critical role Ofcom will play in | :43:25. | :43:30. | |
monitoring diversity, it will also monitor distinctiveness. Given the | :43:31. | :43:38. | |
issues at stake, can the Minister confirm that Ofcom will also consult | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
parliament and the public on this? The BBC Trust struggled to reconcile | :43:44. | :43:50. | |
its twin roles of the corporation's regulator and its cheerleaddr. It's | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
right that these two functions and responsibilities which were often | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
confusing, are to be offici`lly separated. We welcome the f`ct | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
appointees to the board will be drawn by the BBC, rather th`n | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
appointed by the Government. I commend the Government for | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
performing he'll turn and phvot on the issue. Ed Balls would h`ve been | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
given a ten from lens if he managed to pull that off with such style. -- | :44:22. | :44:36. | |
from Len. Which you not agrde with me that one way of guaranteding | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
independence would be to repuire the every nonexecutive is indepdndently | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
appointed? The new charter rewrite the BBC's 19-year-old Mission | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
statement, a commitment to being impartial and distinctive is added | :44:50. | :44:59. | |
to the remit of informing, dducating and entertaining. Distinctiveness is | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
poorly defined, and Ofcom h`s admitted they are still working out | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
exactly what it means. Distinctiveness is a vague notion, | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
there is a risk the BBC's commercial rivals could use it as a sthck to | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
beat the BBC whenever they wish I sense the Secretary of Statd wants | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
to create a new climate in which the future of the BBC can be discussed | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
without political posturing. I don't think she wants to return to the | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
days when David Cameron could describe the prospect of cuts to the | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
nation 's favourite broadcaster as delicious. The Minister's ndw | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
approach is welcome. I belidve the Secretary of State has the BBC's | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
best interest at heart. I c`n detect no desire on her part to usd the BBC | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
as a political football. I really do hope those days are behind ts. The | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
aim of this charter settlemdnt should be to give the BBC the space, | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
time and resources it needs to adapt the huge technological change. This | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
is the only way the BBC will remain relevant to a younger audience who | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
are consuming content in a lyriad of different ways. So we will work with | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
the Secretary of State to sdcure the future of the BBC. Let's hope it is | :46:14. | :46:27. | |
a new benign era for the Bedb. When front bench opposition MPs hnsist | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
you have an obvious right-whng bias, when the left-wing columnist Owen | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
Jones says you are a threat to democracy, when the Foreign | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
Secretary finds you infuriating when politicians and activists of | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
every stripe and persuasion think you are against them, when two | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
thirds of the British public see you as a bastion of editorial excellence | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
and journalistic integrity, when the American public would rather get | :46:54. | :47:02. | |
their news from you than yotr - their own sources, then the BBC can | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
be sure it is doing things right. We should be proud of one of the nation | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
's greatest assets. John Whittingdale. Can I begin bx | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
welcoming the publication of both the draft charter and now the | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
agreement. It is the culmin`tion of a process which started over a year | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
ago with the publication of the consultation paper on the ftture of | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
the BBC, and as both frontbdnchers have referred, that produced a | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
wide-ranging and a luminous response, ranging from the 092, 00 | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
people who responded by e-m`il and by letter through to a numbdr of | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
luminaries of the creative industries, who wrote in defence of | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
the threat of the BBC which they saw. But as my honourable friend | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
pointed out, actually I don't believe ever existed. I thank my | :47:58. | :48:03. | |
right honourable friend for giving way and I wanted to put on the | :48:04. | :48:06. | |
record my thanks for the am`zing work he did in this role. It really | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
was a joy to come into the job and find the work that had been done on | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
the charter, which was comprehensive, technically dxcellent | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
and puts the BBC on an excellent footing and I want to thank him for | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
that. I am most grateful to my right honourable friend and it is | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
gratifying, and I think a positive sign that the charter and the | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
agreement essentially reflect the contents of the white paper, which | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
was the result of a great ddal of work, and which again I would point | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
out at the time was very much welcomed by the BBC as putthng the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
BBC on a sound footing for the future. I do believe that is the | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
case and I think if anything the charter and the agreement is a bit | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
tougher on the BBC than the white paper was. If we look at thd changes | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
made in the charter and agrdement, they actually go further, in ways I | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
welcome. Indeed I might havd suggested myself, such as the | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
salaries publication where the Government has now decided ht is | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
right not to just publish those earning more than ?150,000. But the | :49:14. | :49:22. | |
issue which attracted most comment when the white paper came ott and | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
has featured in the debates we have already had is this issue of the | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
independence of the BBC, and indeed the governance structure. The | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
governance structure was widely recognised on all sides of the House | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
as having failed. The trust had virtually no defenders. When I | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
chaired the select committed we produced a very robust report saying | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
the trust model didn't work. The Lords Communications committee also | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
produced a report making prdcisely the same point, and the ide` that | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
the BBC should have a managdment executive and then this arm's-length | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
body which was part of the BBC but wasn't in the BBC was simplx a | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
recipe for confusion, and ldd to a succession of problems. Things such | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
as the severance payments, the appointment and then departtre of | :50:17. | :50:24. | |
the director-general within the space of 54 days, and huge waste of | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
money like the digital medi` initiative which costs the licence | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
fee payer over ?100 million. We asked David Clementi to comd up with | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
a recommendation for a new governance structure, and hd came | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
back with one that for most people was the right solution, to have a | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
strong board with external governance from Ofcom. The debate | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
was about the appointment is made to that management board, and whether | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
the Government should have ` role. The honourable lady for Bishop | :50:55. | :51:02. | |
Auckland reads some sinister and meaning in the paragraph fotr, where | :51:03. | :51:10. | |
it says it has to take accotnt of these external factors. That | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
particular paragraph is word for word identical to the paragraph in | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
the agreement published in 2006 when the Labour government were hn | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
office. It simply translate the same provision from 2006 into thd new | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
agreement. So if there was ` sinister purpose, it was her | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
government's creation. But there was then a debate about the fact that | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
obviously the unitary board is a more powerful and directly | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
responsible body than the trust It was recognised I think that it was | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
right the chairman remains ` government appointment, although my | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
own view was that because it was such a new creation, it was right | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
that there should be an open competition and that was thd view | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
which was then reached following the publication of a report by the | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
select committee by the new Secretary of State and Primd | :52:08. | :52:08. | |
Minister. The government appoints the four | :52:09. | :52:18. | |
independent directors, each of which will represent or speak for one of | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
the nations of the United Khngdom. The BBC will actually .5 directors. | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
But even the government appointments will be through the Public | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
appointments process. They will not be in the majority. And perhaps most | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
crucially of all, the unitary board will not have a role in editorial | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
decision taking. It will have a role in reaching a judgment about | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
complaints post-transmission, but it will have no involvement in | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
editorial decisions. That is an absolutely crucial safeguard in | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
ensuring that those people cannot be accused of political interfdrence. I | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
have to say, I find it extr`ordinary that all the people who suggested | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
that somehow this was a thrdat to the independence of the BBC, despite | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
the fact that this was pointed out they had no involvement in dditorial | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
decision-making, all of those people have been strangely silent `bout | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
what seems to me a more dangerous precedent. That is the appohntment | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
of James Parnell as the new director of radio medication. When J`mes | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
Parnell was appointed director of strategy by the BBC in 2013, three | :53:34. | :53:43. | |
years after he ceased to be a Labour member of Parliament, five xears | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
after he ceased to be Secretary of State, I actually questioned the | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
Director-General the appointment in the select committee. And I asked | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
him whether or not he could think of any precedent for somebody was not | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
just politically affiliated, but had been an active party politician to | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
seek a management role in the BBC. He couldn't do so, but he dhd say to | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
the select committee, I think the key thing is James's job, of course, | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
is not editorial. He has now become the director of radio. He h`s | :54:19. | :54:26. | |
responsibility, overall responsibility, for the output of a | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
large amount of BBC confident - content and it is impossibld to say | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
he has no say in editorial decisions. He is being grooled as a | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
potential candidate to be Dhrector General, a position which, of | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
course, is also that of chidf editor of the BBC. I like James Parnell. We | :54:43. | :54:50. | |
get on well. We have robust discussions. We agree about quite a | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
lot. I have absolutely no doubt about his commitment to the | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
impartiality of the BBC. In the same way that I am absolutely colmitted | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
to the impartiality of the BBC. But I merely point out that I think if I | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
was to be invited in a few xears to take on a management role in the BBC | :55:11. | :55:19. | |
as a former Secretary of St`te, I suspect that despite the support I | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
might enjoy from some on my own side, it would give rise to howls of | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
outrage. I don't think it would be appropriate. I do think that it does | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
establish a very dangerous precedent, which is far mord of a | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
direct threat to the independence than the nonexecutive indepdndent | :55:39. | :55:46. | |
directors. The honourable gdntleman is making a fair point. What it all | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
goes to show is that we need more of these appointments to be made | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
through independent processds. That is precisely the criticism that we | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
have of the new board structure He has just given another example of | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
where the independence comes into doubt. The honourable lady lakes an | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
interesting point. The government has no involvement in the | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
appointment of Management executives in the BBC. In this particular case, | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
this was another issue, as we understand it, just as therd was no | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
competition when James Parndll was appointed as Director of strategy, | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
there was no external competition for this particular post either | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
That is a matter for the BBC. It is something the select committee has | :56:33. | :56:35. | |
previously questioned quite vigorously. Whilst I am no longer a | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
member, I hope that my succdsses in that position may well wish to take | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
that with the Director-General in the future. Does the Right | :56:44. | :56:52. | |
Honourable member except th`t James Parnell did have a career in the | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
media prior to becoming a mdmber of Parliament? He was a special adviser | :56:58. | :57:10. | |
at Number 10 in that area. Hs not the point for advertising rdally one | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
of ensuring that we don't jtst get white men hand-picked for these | :57:17. | :57:24. | |
jobs? That must be the crithcism, not necessarily his own background | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
and expertise, that clearly exist in this area. I'm not sure the fact | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
that he was a member of Tonx Blair's policy unit is of huge reassurance | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
to me! Appoint the honourable gentleman makes about the nded for | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
diversity is one which we covered in the debate already, and one which I | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
absolutely sign up to. That is something that we have put hnto the | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
public purposes of the BBC for the first time. I think the BBC are | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
committed to trying to ensure greater diversity, but therd is more | :57:58. | :57:58. | |
to go. This is one of the most senhor | :57:59. | :58:14. | |
positions within the BBC with no internal or external adverthsing for | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
the role. There is a lot of criticism about how BBC executives | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
are appointed and how much they are paid. Transparency is important I | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
completely agree. I think that is an important issue. I think thd | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
political precedent is if anything an even more important one comment | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
that the people who complained so vigorously about the suggestion that | :58:37. | :58:44. | |
the government might put in as nonexecutive directors people who | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
may be political friends, that caused howls. And yet in thhs case, | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
when it is not an independent position, it is not at non-dditorial | :58:52. | :58:59. | |
position, that obviously is a much more directly responsible position. | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
And that, it is even more ilportant, should be politically indepdndent. | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
This of course makes it all the more remarkable, does it not, th`t Rona | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
Fairhead was appointed as the chair of the new BBC board when the | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
Secretary of State was in charge, as we subsequently discovered, with no | :59:20. | :59:26. | |
competition whatsoever, but behind closed doors, appointed by the Prime | :59:27. | :59:27. | |
Minister? Of course she was Minister? Of course she was | :59:28. | :59:35. | |
originally appointed as part of a widespread and open on petition when | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
she became chairman of the BBC Trust, which was obviously | :59:42. | :59:43. | |
advertised. There were a nulber of candidates and it went throtgh the | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
full procedure. The fact th`t the then Prime Minister and I told the | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
House that she could serve over the transition by transferring ht into | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
the new position is a matter of public record. As I said in my | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
remarks earlier, I think thd decision later reached that it would | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
be better to put it open colpetition was the correct decision. Is not the | :00:05. | :00:13. | |
point really that the BBC m`y or may not have made a mistake in the way | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
in which they have appointed a particular individual, James | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
Purnell? But they, as an independent organisation, have taken th`t | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
decision. It is not the difficulty -- is not the difficulty we face and | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
the issue about political -, political interference, is that we, | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
in this place, seek to control. . The argument was that when he was | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
Secretary of State, that having a majority of members of the board | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
appointed by the governor of the day was then a concern, that thdre would | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
be a route for political interference from this placd, rather | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
than the BBC making their own mistakes or not? That was a separate | :00:56. | :01:02. | |
debate. I understand the concern expressed. I don't actually agree | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
with it. But even under the original suggestion, the BBC would h`ve a | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
majority when having -- takhng the executive and nonexecutive lembers | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
of the board together. The nonexecutive members would have been | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
through the public appointmdnts process. They would have two have | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
demonstrated their competence, their qualifications for the role. And | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
most people regard that as ` pretty good safeguard. The BBC trust, which | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
the board replaces, was wholly appointed by the government, so this | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
is a big shift. Does he not find it even more bizarre, apart from the | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
political connotations of the appointment, that because ehther of | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
the perceived inexperience of the pointy, or because of other internal | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
factors, the BBC have actually had to create another management post | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
system -- to support James Purnell with a salary of more than the Prime | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
Minister's at a time when they claim to have no money? The honourable | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
gentleman raises a number of points -- a valid point. There are a number | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
of curiosities about this appointment. Perhaps the select | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
committee will want to think about some of those when they next have | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
the Director-General appearhng in front of them. I just want to touch | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
on some other aspects of thd agreement and charter, which I very | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
much welcome. I believe that the introduction of distinctiveness is a | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
key requirement on the BBC. It is very important. It is right that an | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
organisation that enjoys ?4 billion of public money should not be | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
competing with the independdnt sector. That it should look | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
different to the commercial sector. In television and, just as | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
importantly, in radio as well. I hope that by putting that in and | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
having off, adjudicated, th`t will make a difference. -- Ofcom. I | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
completely agree about the distinctiveness. But does hd agree | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
the distinctiveness should be across all of the channels as opposed to | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
just putting some distinctive programmes. It should be across the | :03:15. | :03:24. | |
BBC. I do agree with the honourable gentleman. It will ultimately be a | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
matter for Ofcom to decide whether or not the BBC is meeting that | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
requirement. I don't think ht should be applied on every individtal | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
programme. But clearly each channel should be able to demonstrate that | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
it is markedly different from an equivalent commercial channdl. And | :03:43. | :03:47. | |
that applies certainly in r`dio and also to the mainstream TV channels. | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
I think that is a significant change. | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. Could I ask the | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
honourable gentleman, when he was Secretary of State, did he dver look | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
at the disproportionate amotnt of money distributed to the regions in | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
comparison to London? Some of the regions are very concerned `bout | :04:15. | :04:20. | |
this. I understand that. Thdre are a particular regions, and indded | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
nations, that feel undeservdd - underserved and hard done bx. The | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
BBC made a good move in transferring operations to Salford. I was in | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
favour of the establishment of media city. But it was certainly not | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
sufficient for them to sit back and say, we have done our bit for the | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
English regions. The West Mhdlands has felt underserved. I havd no | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
doubt that the honourable gdntleman from the Scottish National Party | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
will talk about the provision of service and employment and | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
production in Scotland. I think the BBC do need to do more. There are a | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
two things I want to touch on bravely. There are two parthcular | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
developments that I was proloting. The first is the public service | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
content fund. The honourabld gentleman who speaks from the front | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
bench talked about the understand of the provision for broadband and what | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
would happen to it. I hope ht will go to establish the public service | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
content fund, which will provide programming in areas which `re | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
currently being underserved, in which children's television is | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
currently an example. It will be administered outside the BBC. Does | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
the right Honourable gentlelan not think that there may be a chance | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
with that situation of an onerous bureaucracy being created, that may | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
actually cost the licence p`yer more, and may mean that expdrtise in | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
commissioning content is dilinished? I very much hope obviously there | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
will not be an additional bureaucracy. The precise wax of | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
administering it is something that will need to be worked out. But one | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
of the things which I think is a valuable consequence of this, and it | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
is a very small thing, but ht will mean there is an alternativd route | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
for the obtaining of funding from the public purse for public service | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
content, than the BBC has the moment. At the moment the BBC has a | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
monopoly on commissioning content with public money, and that seems to | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
something which in large part is necessary, but dab this altdrnative | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
route, I think, is worth exploring. My memory is not great. I h`ve only | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
been reading the brief for ten days. I think the figure is about ?60 | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
million. Does the honourabld member envisage that being an ongohng | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
demand on the BBC, or will ht be a one-off pot as a result of the | :07:02. | :07:02. | |
overspend? It has been clearly identifhed where | :07:03. | :07:16. | |
the money will be spent, and that is over a set period. We will judge the | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
success. It will be for somd extent for the BBC to decide, and for the | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
Government to decide, but I'm content that for the next three | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
years it is in place. The other innovation which I personally am | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
very committed to, for which the director-general has given ` lot of | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
support, is the provision for the BBC to support local media through | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
the establishment of local news reporting and the binding of | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
content. This is to address what is an extremely serious issue, which is | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
the decline of local media `nd the consequences of that for local | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
accountability on democracy. This is not going to solve that, it is a | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
much bigger issue, but it is a recognition the BBC have taken | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
contact from local newspapers, often without attributing it to the local | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
newspaper let alone giving ht any money for it. In this way it will | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
ensure local newspapers continue to cover local institutions and | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
councils, court proceedings and so on, which are extremely important | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
for the functioning of local democracy and it seems to md a | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
legitimate use of the licence fee to do that and I welcome the stpport | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
the BBC has given to it. It is important the BBC should not | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
directly employ these peopld. If it turned out a local newspaper could | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
reduce their employment even more because the BBC will pick up those | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
people and employ them, it would be harming them further. Through a | :08:52. | :09:00. | |
tender process, they need to support them in ensuring there is proper | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
coverage of local political issues and that too is something which is | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
new and I hope will help to sustain local media and local democracy in | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
this country. Finally I wanted to touch on the future of the licence | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
fee. I have been quoted in the past as saying the licence fee w`s worse | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
than the poll tax. It was shmply an observation the licence fee is a | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
flat rate charge payable by every household, and unlike the community | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
charge there isn't any help available even if you are on a very | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
low income. It was simply an observation of that. The licence fee | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
has many flaws, it is regressive, it is hard to collect, we are now | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
closing the iPlayer loophold which was a means by which people were | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
evading it, but I think the Government is right that for this | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
charter period the licence fee should continue because the speed of | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
change of the way in which people receive television is very fast and | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
there may well come a moment when the technology has advanced so that | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
personally the old argument that everybody consumes the BBC hn one | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
form or another is no longer the case. But also if television is | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
distributed by the Internet, which is coming, that is the moment when | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
it is possible to experiment with things like conditional accdss, | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
subscriptions, and I welcomd the fact the BBC have agreed to put a | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
small toe into the water and to use the iPlayer perhaps to supply some | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
additional content on a voltntary subscription basis. It is a very | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
small step but it is just to see about potentially if one dax we | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
might move towards a volunt`ry system of subscription of the BBC. | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
But the technology doesn't permit that now, I don't think it hs | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
appropriate now, but the BBC have agreed to make that first slall step | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
and that is something I welcome I conclude by once again saying I do | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
believe that the draft agredment and the chartered do represent ` sound | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
foundation for the future of the BBC. I would like to take some small | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
credit, despite those who told me I was hell bent on destruction, it was | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
not the case and I hope this proves it. I beg to move the amendlent in | :11:26. | :11:36. | |
the name of my honourable and right honourable friends. Madam Ddputy | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
Speaker, the BBC is one of the most important and influential ctltural | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
social economic and democratic institutions in our country and I | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
welcome the opportunity we `re having here to debate its ftture yet | :11:50. | :11:57. | |
further. I think we are all agreed about a great deal in the House We | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
all agree exactly how important the BBC is, but there has also been a | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
significant agreement on whdre we criticise the BBC. The honotrable | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
gentleman, the new Shadow Sdcretary of State, illustrate I think very | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
effectively how worried manx of us are about diversity. It is ` | :12:19. | :12:29. | |
widespread agreement throughout the House, there is a shocking shortage | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
of senior black and minoritx figures at the top of the BBC. We all think, | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
I believe, that the BBC shotld reflect the nation so that when we | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
turn on the television the nation should be reflected back at us and | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
too often it isn't. We don't have enough black faces, lesbian or gave | :12:54. | :13:01. | |
people in management positions or as authority figures on screen. The BBC | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
has always been fantastic about attracting gay people the comedy | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
roles and game shows, but they are not the authority figures presenting | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
the news in the way they should be. He's making a very important point, | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
but does he also agree that off-screen and back-office | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
representation is just as ilportant? Indeed I do, I think that is a very | :13:29. | :13:34. | |
fair point. I think the BBC would probably argue that backstage and in | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
the more junior levels, it hs effective at hiring minoritx | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
figures, but when it comes to promotion there is the real problem | :13:46. | :13:47. | |
and that is very obvious whdn you see the most senior presentdrs on | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
screen or when you are meethngs with the more senior management figures. | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
That is clearly something the BBC has got to address concerns. The BBC | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
is great at setting targets, it is not so good at actually delhvering | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
those targets. Very often the targets are set years in advance and | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
by the time we get to the end stage, we have all forgotten what the | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
target was in the first place so they set new targets to get excited | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
about. Time for them to delhver I would like to associate mysdlf with | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
the widespread criticism thdre was about the agreement between the BBC | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
and licence fees for the ovdr 7 s. This was a deal done in secret by | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
BBC managers and the Governlent Tony Hall told us that he thought | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
his staff were delighted with the deal. I had to pinch myself. Anybody | :14:49. | :14:58. | |
who spends a nanosecond spe`king to the staff knows they thought it was | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
disastrous because of coursd it will have an effect on programme making | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
budgets. Also it is not the role of the BBC to deliver social provision. | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
The BBC is a broadcaster. It is the Government's role to deliver social | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
provision and it was clearlx not a satisfactory development and one we | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
deplore. I also suggest to the BBC management they could take ` leaf | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
out of Channel 4's books. If you are faced with a deal that doesn't look | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
like it will be good for yot, phone up some politicians on your side and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
see if they can intervene on your behalf rather than negotiathng in | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
secret, especially when your negotiation turns out to be | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
disastrous. Ask your friends for a bit of assistance and you whll do | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
better. The honourable gentleman makes an important point about the | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
negotiation of the BBC, but to be fair the blame lies with thhs | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
Government who took the BBC to the brink and then offered them a deal | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
which they had no choice but to accept. Except of course thd | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
previous director-general, when faced with this threat, thrdatened | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
to resign and the Government blinked, and so the BBC has enormous | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
power if it plays its cards well. The BBC would probably breathe a | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
sigh of relief that they got off so lightly with the deal they had. They | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
have an increase in the licdnce fee, a five-year review which probably | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
means nothing, and this year they have had enough money to increase | :16:41. | :16:49. | |
their wage bill by ?21 millhon. Indeed, and the honourable gentleman | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
makes a fair point about BBC salaries, which I will come onto | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
later. They are ludicrously inflated at senior levels, and quite often | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
the director-general says wd pay these huge salaries because that is | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
the going rate in the outside world. Of course we don't know that because | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
nobody ever leaves senior posts in the BBC because none of thel want to | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
test that because they know of course they will not achievd the | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
salaries in the outside world. I asked the director-general hf he had | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
ever conducted a study on more senior staff got when they dntered | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
outside industry and he said he had never conducted this. I'm stre the | :17:31. | :17:38. | |
honourable gentleman would `gree with me that in any other btsiness, | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
whatever it may be, even in local government you test the outside | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
salary levels, you test the market on that. That's precisely the point | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
I made to the director-general. Have you tested this, answer, now I | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
haven't. His whole argument for giving people ludicrously inflated | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
salaries failed with that answer. The right honourable gentlelan | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
correctly predicts I will ttrn to Scotland and for a period of time it | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
has been clear the BBC is not delivering for Scotland in the way | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
that it should be. Audience satisfaction rating showed Scots | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
don't feel the corporation fully represents its views and interests. | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Appreciation levels in Scotland are lower than average for the rest of | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
the UK, and feel the BBC is poorer at representing their lives compared | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
with people in other parts of the UK. You don't have to take ly word | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
for it, that's what the BBC says itself and fully acknowledgds this | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
is a problem. We and our colleagues in Holyrood and the Scottish | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
Government are committed to high quality well resourced publhc | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
service broadcasting, and won the BBC charter that allows for this. | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
Charter renewal has been a valuable opportunity to provide a fr`mework | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
for the BBC that enables it to maintain its important role as a | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
public service broadcaster, improve its performance for Scottish and UK | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
audiences, and provide further support for the Scottish production | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
sector and those in the widdr creative industries. For thd first | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
time the Scottish Government at Holyrood have had a formal role in | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
the charter renewal process following on from the | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
recommendations of the Smith commission. The SNP has delhvered a | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
clear and consistent messagd on the straightforward changes we believe | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
would help transform the BBC in Scotland for the better. Whhle we | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
welcome a number of elements within the charter, it is vital now that | :19:44. | :19:51. | |
the BBC delivers. The SNP h`s argued that the BBC needs an enforceable | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
licence service agreement for Scotland, and a dedicated board | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
member for Scotland. There `re clear reasons for this. The Scotthsh board | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
would allow BBC Scotland to have greater control over its budget and | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
to be given meaningful commhssion powers. The charter accepts SNP | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
proposals for the BBC to report back, but does not make provisions | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
for a fairer share of the lhcence fee raised in Scotland to bd spent | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
in Scotland. This would delhver an additional 100 million of investment | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
annually in these creative industries. We welcome the | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
commitment for continuing stpport for the Gaelic language of the | :20:36. | :20:37. | |
Secretary of State refrained from going a bit further and movhng | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
towards parity with the Welsh channel, S4C. This was recolmended | :20:42. | :20:51. | |
by the committee on which I sit We support many of the wider proposals | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
within the draft charter. Wd welcome the abolition of the BBC Trtst and | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
its replacement by a unitarx board, but as I suggested when I rose to | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
question the right honourable gentleman, we were alarmed to see | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
the rather relaxed method of selection for the new chair, when | :21:11. | :21:18. | |
Rona Fairhead moved seamlessly from her old job as the trust ch`ir to | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
her new job as the chair of the unitary board. The right honourable | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
gentleman said the transition period was important because in effect the | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
transition meant that she w`s continuing in the same job. But of | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
course miss Fairhead herself said it was a completely different job, | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
which is precisely why it should have been subject to open | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
competition rather than comd about as a result of a cosy chat between | :21:45. | :21:51. | |
her and the Prime Minister with no civil servants present. Discovering | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
this in the course of a heated select committee cross-examhnation | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
resulted in Miss Fairhead accepting that perhaps she should go. | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
Annually had a go area at the Director-General of the BBC. But | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
isn't it Rona Fairhead we should have been screaming blue murder when | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
the government forced a settlement on her? The whole point of her post | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
is that she is meant to be independent and should be able to | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
say, no, you can't do this. The honourable gentleman makes ` good | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
point. Many of us found it disturbing she had been appointed | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
without open competition. What was the quid pro quo for getting a job | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
like that with no competition? Clearly she would have to bd truly | :22:42. | :22:44. | |
saintly enough to feel slightly beholden to the people who had | :22:45. | :22:51. | |
appointed her in that way. Scotland's frustrations with the BBC | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
often focus on the provision of news. This is why I called for a new | :22:55. | :23:04. | |
Scottish six. The national news programme is treated as a rdgional | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
rather than a national news programme under current | :23:08. | :23:09. | |
arrangements. It is under rdsourced and cannot report on news ottside of | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
Scotland's border. The currdnt news does not work in the post-rdvolution | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
age. Scottish viewers often have to sit through stories on devolved | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
issues which have absolutelx no relevance to them. English health, | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
aimless policing, it is a blast from the past and it needs to ch`nge I | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
am very grateful to the honourable gentleman. I wonder if he c`n | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
clarify... In response to the Secretary of State during the BBC | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
charter statement last month, the Secretary of State said it's for the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
editorial of the BBC, with total independence in this matter, to | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
decide exactly if the Scotthsh six would happen. The honourabld | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
gentleman tweeted afterwards that it was good to hear this was a matter | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
for the BBC and not the govdrnment. But is his motion not pushing the | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
government to make a decision rather than leaving it to the editorial | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
department of the BBC? I thhnk the honourable gentleman confusds | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
structure with editorial policy It's perfectly reasonable offer any | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
of us to argue there should be devolution of broadcasting `nd | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
structural changes. That is why the select committee came out | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
unanimously in favour of thd separate Scottish six. Therd were | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
not presuming to tell the editors to tell -- what the content should be. | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
That is an editorial matter. But simply to recommend an advance the | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
cause of the Scottish six is structural and not editorial. It is | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
important not to confuse thd two. The Scottish six is an incrddibly | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
important issue in Scottish broadcasting. I am undecided as to | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
whether or not is a good thhng. I want good quality Scottish news | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
rather than perhaps forcing a programme that is not of thd quality | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
people expect. Is he saying that the issue around whether or not BBC | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
Scotland initiates a Scottish six o'clock news is an editorial | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
judgment for the BBC or a policy judgment in the charter rendwal | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
That is a very good question. For too long this particular subject has | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
been party political in a w`y that I don't think it should be. I am a | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
former journalist. I believd in independent journalism. I w`nt to | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
see more jobs in journalism. I want to see Scottish news prosper. And | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
I've always found there to be a certain irony in this. In the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
Scottish political debate m`ny people say there is not enotgh | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
scrutiny in the Scottish government. I don't know whether I agred or | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
disagree. That is what some people, especially in the Labour Party, | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
argue. I am arguing for an hour long programme where you can scrttinise | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
the Scottish government for a full hour. Surely that has to be a good | :26:09. | :26:11. | |
thing? It gives more opporttnities for opposition politicians. It | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
provides more jobs. And crucially, it is something that BBC Scotland | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
itself once. I talk to the journalists. | :26:22. | :26:27. | |
I can't wait to hear. Is th`t not an argument for the people of South | :26:28. | :26:30. | |
Leicestershire and the remahning part of the United Kingdom to hear | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
exactly the failures of the Scottish government? Surely it is an argument | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
to have more Scottish news on the UK main news rather than a sep`rate | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
bulletin? Madam Deputy Speaker, I fear that this is cloud cuckoo land. | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
While I wouldn't presume for one moment to tell the network dditors | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
what they should put on the news, I have to tell that if somebody | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
Starred Up at a newsroom edhtorial meeting and said, you know what I | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
think we should have a tenant report on Scottish politics for thd viewers | :27:07. | :27:08. | |
of South Leicestershire, I suspect they wouldn't get very far. -- a ten | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
minute report. Surely this hs a matter of equality due in W`les | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
Welsh speakers have issues dedicated to them on national and | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
international matters. 80% of non-Welsh speakers do not gdt that | :27:24. | :27:32. | |
through the lens. This is a quality matter for people in Scotland and | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
Wales. The honourable lady lakes a very good point. There is a bitter | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
irony for me. I opened the front page of the Daily Mail when the | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
select committee came out in favour of a Scottish six, and the front | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
page condemned the decentralisation of broadcasting on a front page | :27:52. | :27:57. | |
which was itself devolved. Of course, the Daily Mail does not run | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
the same front page in Scotland as it does in the UK, because ht knows | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
there are different news prhorities. I will take the right honourable | :28:06. | :28:14. | |
gentleman. I am enjoying thd honourable member's contribttion. I | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
am the new kid. I have not been party political about the Scottish | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
six o'clock news. I am trying to understand when his position has | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
changed. When I was doing hhs homework, I found a quote from him | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
in a question to the Ministdr had a recent debate, when he said, does | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
the Secretary of State agred that that the matter of a separate | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
Scottish six is entirely thd BBC? What I'm trying to understand is he | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
seems to be contradicting that in speaking to this amendment. Could he | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
explain it thinking has changed Yes. I'm delighted to explahn. In | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
answers to questions given to me by the former Secretary of State and | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
the current Secretary of St`te, they both said, while agreeing that | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
Scotland was underserved, accepting the BBC's on an analysis th`t the | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
BBC is not trusted in Scotl`nd, they said to me the job of news, they | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
thought, was to bring a nathon together. I don't believe it is I | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
think the job of the BBC is to report without fear or favotr and to | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
provide the best possible ndws for the viewers, rather than acting as a | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
cheerleader for one constitttional settlement or another. So mx view is | :29:34. | :29:41. | |
that the BBC should devolve to the maximum amount possible, I believe | :29:42. | :29:48. | |
in the concept of a separatd Scottish six. But at that point | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
politicians should stand back and allowed the BBC to decide the form | :29:53. | :29:55. | |
of that programme and of cotrse the content. If you want to ask me a | :29:56. | :30:03. | |
question, please feel free. If you mumble, I cannot hear you. H thank | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
the honourable member once `gain. Was it not the -- was it not the SMP | :30:10. | :30:18. | |
activists that bullied BBC executives during the Scotthsh | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
referendum by alleging that the editorial content on BBC Scotland | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
news programmes was biased? Madame Deputy Speaker, there was a vigorous | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
debate in Scotland in which both sides accuse the other... I heard | :30:31. | :30:38. | |
you. You don't have to repe`t it. Both sides accuse the other of | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
bullying. The BBC itself saxs it should have learned lessons. There | :30:45. | :30:53. | |
is a very important argument to be had about exactly how the BBC covers | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
referenda. In a binary choice, the coverage has to be very different | :30:59. | :31:04. | |
from a multiparty election. I think the BBC accepts itself that it | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
covered the referendum camp`ign like a general election rather than a | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
binary choice. And of coursd the BBC got itself into a bit of a funk on | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
this. On the one hand they said defending themselves, there are no | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
lessons to be learned, we m`de no mistakes. But almost immedi`tely | :31:24. | :31:26. | |
they said, we must learn thd lessons of the Scottish referendum campaign | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
for how we covered the European Referendum Bill campaign. That is | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
entirely coherent. You cannot say our coverage was perfect and other | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
same time say we will learn the lessons from the previous c`mpaign. | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
I would like to move on. I will say no I'm afraid. The important thing | :31:44. | :31:52. | |
for all of us is to remember that BBC Radio one Scotland and BBC Alba | :31:53. | :32:00. | |
have done exactly what has been proposed for decades in the case of | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
BBC radio Scotland. They have a grown-up running order in which the | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
UK, the Scottish, the world's most important story that night leads the | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
news. So all of us have got to think, how would we feel if we open | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
a newspaper and Agolli had Welsh stories, or English stories, or | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
Scottish stories? It would be a most peculiar newspaper. That is the | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
position the BBC finds itself in Scotland. I believe this wotld | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
provide new opportunities for as talented and skilled professionals | :32:36. | :32:37. | |
in Scotland. It would creatd new jobs, bring investment and `ssist | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
BBC Scotland in building its reputation as a high qualitx | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
broadcaster. What is absolutely vital is that we recognise ht is | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
what the BBC staff want thelselves. The editor of reporting Scotland, | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
Andrew Browne, said the following: we are really keen to see a separate | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
Scottish and six. I would love to take this programme forward. It has | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
got worldviews, Scottish news, UK news, it is something we cotld all | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
do. Any journalist would want to work on a programme like th`t. | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
However, he added, it's for people higher than the BBC to decide | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
whether or not this is the right direction to go in. Meanwhile, STV | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
saw a gap in the market. Whhle the BBC anguished, probably worrying | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
about what politicians thought in a way it should not, STV have out like | :33:32. | :33:39. | |
the BBC by announcing a Scottish seven o'clock news to be latnched in | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
2017. There lies a problem `t the heart of BBC Scotland. Without a | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
fairer share of the licence fee without greater control over its own | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
budget, without the authority to make commissioning decisions, BBC | :33:56. | :33:57. | |
Scotland too often relies on the decisions of executives. In London, | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
invariably. Granted permisshon for what it can and cannot do. Leaning | :34:04. | :34:09. | |
for editorial and financial control might be trapped -- must be | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
transferred north of the border The opportunity for people in the | :34:16. | :34:17. | |
creative industries must be realised. Maximum revolution of | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
broadcasting in Scotland is necessary to deliver the high | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
quality well resourced broadcast sector Scotland deserves. | :34:26. | :34:39. | |
One more for the road. Please, we want to support your motion. | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
Therefore, can you give clarity about what the motion actually says. | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
Is the Scottish six in the BBC News Scotland context and editorhal | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
decision for the BBC in Scotland, as the motion I hope says, or `re you | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
hoping to make it a policy decision in the charter? | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
The latter would not be deshrable. There are a lot of people using you, | :35:03. | :35:15. | |
meaning honourable members. I think it is absolutely important that | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
there should not be politic`l interference in the decision about | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
whether or not there is a sdparate Scottish six. I have made this point | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
repeatedly. I am encouraging the BBC to continue fearlessly with its | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
current proposals to continte with the pilots and to provide jobs and | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
investment in the way that the BBC once to do. And its staff w`nt to | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
do. Madame Deputy Speaker, the BBC is rich in talent and creathvity. | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
Its strength is its extraordinary workforce. We have made cle`r our | :35:52. | :35:58. | |
passionate support for publhc service broadcasting. Where we have | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
offered criticism, we hope ht has been constructive. Much of the | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
criticism has been accepted by the BBC itself. We urge the BBC to | :36:08. | :36:09. | |
transfer its aspirations into delivery. | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
Order. For the avoidance of doubt, at the beginning of the spedch he | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
moved the motion. He was spdaking to the motion. He will be calldd to | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
formally move the amendment at the end of the debate. | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
Helen Grant. Much of this ddbate today will no doubt focus on issues | :36:33. | :36:38. | |
such as governance, compliance, regulation, independence, | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
distinctiveness, financial stability. But I would like to use | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
my time this afternoon to again raise an issue that is far too often | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
pushed to the margins. Namely, diversity. And equal opporttnities. | :36:57. | :37:07. | |
Last week, Madame Deputy Spdaker, I attended the launch of the BBC's | :37:08. | :37:09. | |
black British season. It was held in Soho and was well | :37:10. | :37:28. | |
attended. It was attempting to overturn various misconcepthons and | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
to challenge the Orthodox. The aim too was also to show what it really | :37:32. | :37:39. | |
means to be black and British today. I must admit when I arrived, I was a | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
little sceptical. But when H left, I was a little emotional. I h`d been | :37:47. | :37:56. | |
taken on a journey back to the 0s, 50s, 60s and 70s, and then forward | :37:57. | :38:03. | |
again to the future with a documentary speculating on whether | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
we'll ever have a black Prile Minister by some brilliant diverse | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
writers, presenters, broadc`sters, directors and producers. I think I'd | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
witnessed the BBC operating some of its very best -- at some of its very | :38:26. | :38:34. | |
best. It made me proud to bd British and very excited about the future. | :38:35. | :38:41. | |
Going forward, this desire `nd commitment for even greater | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
diversity at the BBC seems very genuine and pretty well reflected in | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
the draft charter and the agreement. But there are three areas where | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
clarification from either the Secretary of State if she's here or | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
the minister, either in his or her winding up, or in writing in the | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
future, would be very helpftl. I would also like to make one or two | :39:09. | :39:25. | |
remarks about Ofcom. First, Al - although DCMS have published papers, | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
there is nothing for divershty and equal opportunities and I would | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
therefore ask the Secretary of State or her minister to look into | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
providing a comparable doculent as soon as they possibly can. Second; | :39:39. | :39:48. | |
the draft charter states thd following. "The BBC must ensure it | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
reflects the diverse communhties of the whole of the United Kingdom in | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
the content of its output, the means by which its output is delivered, | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
including where its activithes are carried out and by whom and in the | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
organisation and management of the BBC. " | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
Could the Secretary of Statd or her minister please confirm that this | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
diversity requirement applids to on-screen and off screen employment | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
from all supplies both internal and independent. | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
Third; the agreement requirds the BBC to promote equal opporttnities | :40:35. | :40:44. | |
in relation to disability, race and sex and to make people award of its | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
arrangements to achieve this. To review the arrangements and to | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
publish a report at least once a year on the effectiveness of those | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
arrangements. On this latter requirement, I would very | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
respectfully ask the Secret`ry of State and her minister to please pay | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
special attention to the word "effectiveness". This is because we | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
actually need to know what works and what doesn't work. Too often in my | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
life in my experience, both as a lawyer and as a politician hn this | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
place, institutions have bo`sted good practice, best practicd, but | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
then we find good practice, best practice does not mean effective | :41:38. | :41:41. | |
action and we really do need effective action here. Finally; | :41:42. | :41:53. | |
Ofcom's Regulators are responsible for making sure the requirelents are | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
realised. In the past, I confess I've not been overly impressed by | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
Ofcom's response to statutory equality duties. But they now have a | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
new CEO who's promised a harder edged approach to diversity and | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
she's also mentioned quotas and she's mentioned ringfenced funding | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
if necessary. I hope that Sharon White's words are reflected in | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
action and I shall be watchhng very carefully. I'm happy to givd way. | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
The honourable lady's making a characteristically powerful speech. | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
Does she agree with me that it is particularly important, givdn the | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
diversity of the population under the age of 18, that we have a | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
home-grown capacity for makhng children's programmes so th`t the | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
programmes that children watch are reflective of the communitids they | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
live in? I think the honourable lady's making | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
a very good point and I'd bd extremely interested to look into | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
that sort of idea. On the b`sis too, that transparency drives diversity, | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
I also hope that Sharon White will require full publication of the | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
BBC's diversity data with Ofcom providing commentary and thd | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
essential evaluation. Madam Deputy Speaker, many people listenhng to | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
this debate today have workdd so, so hard for years to advance dhversity | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
in the arts and creative industry.s in still much to do, there hs still | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
a way to go. But I do actually feel that we are on the brink of some | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
real progress here. I would therefore like to take this | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
opportunity to pay tribute to the former culture mayor, my right | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
honourable friend, the membdr for Didcot and Wantage, Ed vasy, and to | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
all those committed individtals both inside Parliament and outside | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
Parliament, such as Simon Oldbury of the campaign for broadcasting | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
equality who never seemed to give up. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. | :44:09. | :44:18. | |
Can I begin by saying that since I stood down from the frontbench in | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
June, I've agreed to take on the secretaryship of the all party | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
Parliamentary Group on the BBC just so that colleagues around the | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
chamber know. Can I begin bx welcoming the Right Honourable lady, | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
the member for Staffordshird Moorlands and the new Secretary of | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
State to her place and her linister as well, both of whom are ndw in the | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
job, although not in Governlent And can I also commend my right | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
honourable friend, the membdr for West Bromwich East on his ddbut and | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
debate at the despatch box hn this particular role and wish hil well. | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
Now, although the new ministers have come late to this process of BBC | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
charter renewal, it is now for them to finish off all of the work that's | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
been done before and done so far. And I am glad to see that some of | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
the more lurid fantasies of the former Secretary of State who I m | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
really pleased to say in thd place, the Right Honourable gentlelan for | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
Malden, will be well and trtly finished off by the time thd new | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
charter becomes operational. I'm sure that the Secretary of State and | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
the minister have realised `lready the incredibly high esteem with | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
which the BBC is held in thd UK by our constituents who pay for and | :45:36. | :45:42. | |
consume its services. The interest therefore and campaigning that | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
there's been around and abott the process of charter renewal `nd the | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
wish that around the countrx, around the nations and regions that the | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
Government get this charter right. Let me give the Government some | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
credit. This isn't something that I always do. But let me give them some | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
credit. The end result looks better, looks like it will be better, though | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
many of us had -- than many of us had feared. There are one or two | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
concerns that remain and I'l going to come on to mention one or two of | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
them in my remarks. When we consider the future of the BBC, we should | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
always keep in mind its history at the centre of our national life | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
Around this chamber, people do do that when they contribute to this | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
debate. The fact that it's one of our most-loved institutions, behind | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
only the Monarch, the Armed Forces and the National Health Service in | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
the esteem with which it's held Loved and valued it most certainly | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
is. The consultation on the Green Party earlier as part of thd charter | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
renewal process review simply reiterated the extent to whhch this | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
is so. Those of us who knock on the door of our constituents and try to | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
get them to approve what we do in our jobs I think can only look on in | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
awe at an 81% approval rating which is what the public believe the BBC | :47:07. | :47:14. | |
do a good job, 81% of them. I think we could all wish for such ` high | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
level of approval from thosd that we seek to work for. When combhned with | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
the fact that a very high ntmber of people in this one trirks some 7% | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
of people in this country actually consume the BBC's services for an | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
average of 18 hours a week, that's a very impressive set of figures and | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
something we should all bear in mind when we are considering the future | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
of the BBC. Now, of course, the public have taken part many the | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
Charter Review period in so far as they've been able to by way of the | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
consultation on the Green P`rty and, as I think the Secretary of State | :47:54. | :48:01. | |
mentioned in her own remarks of some 192,000 of them replied, three | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
quarters believed the BBC should remain independent and two thirds | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
believe the BBC has a posithve wider impact on the market and th`t BBC | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
expansion is justified. The BBC I think is also a linchpin of our | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
creative industries, and our broader creative industries in the whole of | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
the UK. It allows us both to punch well above our weight as a nation in | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
terms of exporting creative output to the rest of the world, as well as | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
being a key component in thd soft power that even our new Fordign | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
Secretary's commented upon `s he starts himself to get to grhps with | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
his new role. Both of these things I think are even more important after | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
the referendum on the 23rd June than they were before when the former | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
Secretary of State and I were both still in our places on the | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
frontbench. So I think we all ought to be able to agree, and I'l sure we | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
will, on how lucky we are as a nation to have the BBC and we ought | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
to use the charter renewal process to enable it to continue to do the | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
job that it is doing. I'll give way to the honourable gentleman who s | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
just come back into his place. I thank the Right Honourable lady She | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
talks about how popular the BBC is and she's absolutely right. When 75% | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
agree on the BBC for news, does she agree it's important the BBC is and | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
is seen to be impartial in latters? I do agree with that. But I think | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
it's also important that thdy should be the judges of impartiality and be | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
held to account for it, that we shouldn't be able to override them | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
from this chamber because wd, of course, we are outside the House and | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
we are not impartial. A good charter I think must guarantee that the | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
BBC's editorial independencd is beyond doubt. It must guarantee that | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
the BBC's financial independence is going to continue and it has to help | :50:00. | :50:07. | |
it to fulfil its mission to educate, inform and entertain. I think that | :50:08. | :50:13. | |
that is the yard stick by which we should judge this charter. Now, can | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
I say that I think the 11-ydar length of the charter is a good | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
thing because it does give some stability, it takes an extr` view | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
out of the political cycle hnto which this House and Parlialent s | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
passage of the fixed term Mdmbers of Parliament Act suddenly pitched it. | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
I think that that's entirelx good. I am, however, still a bit concerned | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
that the mid term review whhch is presumably will take place `fter | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
five-and-a-half years, will health check, as it's been imaginatively | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
dubbed by ministers, has thd potential to be deeply dest`bilising | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
if there's a will in Governlent to ex-boy that review. Now, we have | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
been reassured this isn't going to be a mini Charter Review because | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
that is the fear. The minister in the other place, the noble Lord | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
Ashton of Hyde said it would consider only governance and | :51:11. | :51:13. | |
regulation, not the scope and scale of the BBC. But governance `nd | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
regulation, these two things have changed from the current proposals | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
half way through the charter, could leave things looking very dhfferent | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
to how they look at present. So can the minister give us some | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
reassurances when he replies to the debate, just what kind of change he | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
envisages this mini-mid Charter Review or this mini health check or | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
mid determine review might seek to make? In the other place, the | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
minister said that Ofcom will have "to stand the test of time `nd prove | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
itself". Might this mini Ch`rter Review lead to Ofcom being stripped | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
of its regulatory function hf it doesn't stand up to some test which | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
a minister in the other place seemed to be setting for it? | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
What kind of review does he envisage this being? And also, when he | :52:04. | :52:13. | |
replies in respect of Ofcom, can he give us the assurance that the | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
secretary of state did not puite give me in my intervention darlier, | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
about the re-sources that Ofcom are going to be given to do a | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
considerably extended role to that which they already have? I didn t | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
get the sense that the Right Honourable Lady did not say they | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
would be given new resources or the resources of the existing trust We | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
need to know what resource they will have to do this completely new job | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
they are being given under this charter. We are going to have a new | :52:46. | :52:59. | |
regulatory regime for the BBC, Ofcom, replacing the BBC Trtst, | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
which there was no trust in. If I went to the doctors for a hdalth | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
check and he found I had a horrible disease, I would expect him to take | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
action, and I would expect the government to take action if the new | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
regulatory regime is not working. It is an extended metaphor that the | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
honourable gentleman has employed. I don't quite understand how ht would | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
apply in respect of this mid-term review. I don't know why thhs | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
mid-term review was not simply dropped. It seems that ministers | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
have been casting about tryhng to find some kind of purpose for it. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
Because they didn't want to simply accept that the mid-term review | :53:39. | :53:45. | |
Pramac the break clause, I think it started out being something | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
different to how it has enddd up, I'm not sure what the role of that | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
review is and I just hope that the Minister, when the winds, whll give | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
us more reassurance. It also was said in the other place that | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
governance would be part of that review. What kind of change is this | :54:03. | :54:10. | |
mid-term review likely to m`ke Dorrans, if any? What extent might | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
there be some change in the air If the government doesn't like the way | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
the arrangements are set out in this charter are proceeding, are we going | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
to see wholesale change in how governance of the BBC is working. | :54:26. | :54:35. | |
What steps will the governmdnt take to make sure such arrangements are | :54:36. | :54:45. | |
scrutinised? While we are dhscussing governance, we had a bit of an | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
exchange around the chamber about it earlier, I welcome the fact there is | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
to be a competition for the new chair of the BBC board. I w`s | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
critical before the chair of the BBC Trust was appointed to what is a | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
rather different role withott any competition at all, and at the | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
behest, it seems, of the prdvious Prime Minister. Certainly, H | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
suspect, not at the behest of the former secretary of State. H want to | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
emphasise, I was not commenting and I am not commenting in any way of | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
the abilities or otherwise of Rona Fairhead to do the job. But simply | :55:24. | :55:29. | |
on the principle of the matter. In any event, she has decided not to | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
put herself forward and the BBC will have a new chair. We on this side | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
the House are mindful of wh`t the outgoing Commissioner for ptblic | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
appointments said about the propensity of the government, | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
increasingly to an extent, Tory supporters the public roles. We will | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
be watching this sensitive appointment with close interest I | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
welcome the fact the governlent have abandoned the previous Secrdtary of | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
State's attempts to enable the government to appoint a majority of | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
the unitary board. I think that is entirely positive. I don't believe | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
myself that it was sensible, and I think that the retreat that the | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
government have agreed to in conjunction with the BBC, in | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
discussions with the BBC, is a good one. I think they could havd let | :56:21. | :56:22. | |
themselves into criticisms which they were rather not have. H do | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
think that is a positive development. I want to say ` little | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
bit about the thorny topic of distinctiveness. What on earth does | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
distinctiveness now mean in the context in which we are discussing | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
it in relation to the chartdr? We know what the right honourable | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
gentleman, the member for Alberman voted meant. And he really ,- | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
reiterated his view of what it means today. We got the distinct | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
impression that anything popular, commercial or with good rathngs | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
would not be distinctive enough And he felt the BBC should be prevented | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
from engaging in any kind of competition with its commercial | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
rivals in respect of this. But what does it now mean in the context of | :57:10. | :57:17. | |
the new charter? I think thd debtor nation in the White Paper is | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
fiendish because substantially different can mean whatever anybody | :57:21. | :57:29. | |
wanted to men. We should it does not relate to individual progralming. I | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
don't think accepting some lurid newspaper stories which seeled to be | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
coming from his department `t the time, I don't think he ever meant to | :57:39. | :57:41. | |
say it applied to individual programming. The government has left | :57:42. | :57:52. | |
to Ofcom. There is still a significant prospect for thhs to be | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
used mendacious lever by politicians, perish the thotght or | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
by the BBC commercial rivals, who may want to stop the BBC from | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
competing with them, by makhng complaints about distinctivdness. I | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
will give way. The member is making an important point. But would she | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
not agree that there is an hmportant point made in this part of the | :58:19. | :58:25. | |
charter, that the BBC, with the vast amount of money which it acpuires | :58:26. | :58:31. | |
from the licence payer, does have an unfair advantage over the other | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
commercial operators? There has to be some way of ensuring that | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
advantage is not used or abtsed to stop and to prevent commerchal | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
operators from being able to compete for a good programmes. I thhnk it's | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
right that the BBC ought to be held to account for the way in which it | :58:54. | :59:00. | |
spends its money. And whethdr or not its meeting its objectives `nd the | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
requirements we have of it tnder the Charter. It is entirely fair it | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
should be held to account for that. I don't think it's right th`t we | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
should get into arguments over whether or not particular programmes | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
are sufficiently distinctivd or sufficiently different. The | :59:15. | :59:21. | |
definition is a lawyer's drdam. I do think there are concerns ovdr what | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
that will end of meaning in practice. I want to say a lhttle bit | :59:25. | :59:32. | |
about the contestable pot. H think the survival of that contestable pot | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
of licence fee money is a rdtrograde step. No matter what use it is to be | :59:37. | :59:42. | |
put to. I know there is supposed to be some kind of pilots and that | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
commissioning children's programmes is supposed to be involved hn | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
whatever is done with this loney from the underspend. I think the | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
fact is that the government is establishing the principle that | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
licence fee payers money should be handed over to the BBC commdrcial | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
rivals to make programmes as a matter of established practhce. That | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
is different to the BBC dechding itself that it may want to | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
commission programming from independent producers, which of | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
course it does a lot. That hs partly how it does its business. I think | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
the problem is that if the contestable pot simply takes money | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
away from the BBC and gives it to its rivals to make their own | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
programmes without any such guarantees as the BBC would have | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
itself of its own ethos or puality being maintained, it is simply a | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
raid on the BBC's resources. It is no more than that. This could be the | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
thin end of what may end up being a very large wedge. We saw newspaper | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
reports before the White Paper was published about a contestable pot | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
with a lot more money in it than ?60 million. Whilst it is currently | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
small and has been identifidd from underspends as a way of using an | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
underspend, the potential this has over time to be expanded and to | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
establish this principle th`t the licence fee money is not to be used | :01:06. | :01:12. | |
by the BBC to fulfil its role and its mission, I think, could be | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
significant. I'd like to he`r some assurances from the governed that | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
the contestable pot isn't something that is going to be vastly dxpanded | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
during the period of this Charter review. The government. I don't | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
think it should be proceeded with at all. I want to say a little bit | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
before I finish about the issue of salaried transparency. We h`ve heard | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
the argument about publishing these salaries of so-called talent in the | :01:41. | :01:49. | |
BBC. About it being initial transparency. I understand that | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
argument. But I just want to put an alternative viewpoint. That is that | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
far from being about transp`rency, this is actually a tabloid dditor's | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
dream. It is a destructive bit of punishment for anybody who wants to | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
work with the BBC as opposed to working for a commercial | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
broadcaster. Why is it right to invade the privacy of those who work | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
for the BBC, Lord not those who work for any of its commercial rhvals? -- | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
but not those. The minister in the other Place said this requirement | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
would not extend... No! I'm halfway through a sentence. I'm halfway | :02:27. | :02:34. | |
through a sentence! I may ghve way to him in a moment. When I've | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
finished my sentence. The problem is, why is it right that thhs | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
requirement would not be extended to BBC studios? BBC studios will still | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
be using public money, will still be using licence fee payers's loney. | :02:56. | :03:04. | |
Why is it right for parts of the BBC that are in the public bit of the | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
BBC to have to do this, when talent in other places, commissiondd by the | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
BBC using licence fee money, doesn't? Is this really abott | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
transparency, or is it about giving a stick to tabloid editors to have a | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
go at the BBC? Of course I will give way. I think the point about studios | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
is that studios are a commercial operation that will compete with | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
other commercial operations. When the BBC commissions an independent | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
company produce content for it, those people employed by thd | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
independent company are not paid directly by the licence fee, and | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
therefore their salary is not disclosed under these arrangements. | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
We want the same arrangement for studios as independent comp`nies, to | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
enable them to compete. We `lso need to know how much of the licdnce fee | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
is paid to those independent companies, that then go on `nd make | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
programmes like top gear and others, that we enjoy on the BBC. I think | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
there are potential, perhaps unintended consequences, of this. | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
When I was a trade unionist, the idea of comparability and trying to | :04:23. | :04:24. | |
get a pay rise because somebody else was doing a similar job, was grist | :04:25. | :04:33. | |
to the mill. If this leads to the costs for the BBC's front of camera | :04:34. | :04:42. | |
talent to simply increase, H think that maybe an unintended | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
consequence. I don't think this has thought through. I will givd way. I | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
said I would. Clearly she mtst recognise there is a big distinction | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
between people who are paid for by the public purse, and peopld who | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
operate commercially in the private sector. All of our salaries in this | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
House are publicly known, and it is entirely legitimate for the public | :05:08. | :05:09. | |
to see where some of their loney is going as far as salaries ard | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
concerned. I understand the point he makes. But if the ultimate bill is | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
being paid for by the licence fee payer, why aren't they entitled to | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
transparency in respect of seeing what the salaries are, just because | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
it happens to be an independent producer? I don't think it hs | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
consistent. And I think it could have unintended consequences. It | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
seems to me to be a populist measure, which doesn't necessarily | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
do the BBC any favours in trying to pursue, in trying to make stre that | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
it gets the talent that is available. It also gives colmercial | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
rivals are a lot of inside information, published information, | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
to see what it would take to poach talent away. I don't see how that is | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
helpful to the BBC in fulfilling its mission. I think this is a | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
vindictive little measure and I don't see the point of pursting it. | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
But nonetheless, the governlent have said they will do so. We will see | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
how it goes. I think it's good that we have got to a better place with | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
the charter review than we light have. I think from an early stage of | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
the review process, the govdrnment seems to be contemplating shrinking | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
and diminishing the BBC. I know they denied it. But I think it w`s | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
they're in the background. H think if they could have got away with it, | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
they would have done. I think, however, that the huge swell of | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
support there has been from our constituents and in both Hotses of | :06:47. | :06:48. | |
Parliament, has stopped thel from doing so. I think there are still | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
potential pitfalls and problems which could end up being a luch | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
bigger issue than they now look like they are in this charter, and we | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
will obviously keep an high on the way in which it goes, in particular | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
leading opted this so-called mid-term review. We will be watching | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
to make sure the government don t go back to their original aims, in the | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
charter review, trying to do down the BBC. And I think that on behalf | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
of our constituents of love and value the BBC, as a great UK | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
institution, we all hope th`t this charter does what the secretary of | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
State now says she wishes it to do, and we will make sure that ht does. | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Firstly I would like to thank the | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
Secretary of State and welcome her to this debate. I thank her for her | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
crtion of the Select Committee's report and recommendations through | :07:49. | :07:50. | |
the finalisation of the charter process and also to thank hdr | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
predecessor, the Right Honotrable member for Maldon again for the | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
consideration he gave to thd committee and its work whild he was | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
Secretary of State in preparing the Royal Charter and also to wdlcome to | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
his place the member for West Bromwich East. I know from our time | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
together on the culture medha and sports committee that he'll bring | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
passion and energy to his role and I look forward to hearing his | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
contributions in these debates in the months and years to comd. | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
Following on from the honourable lady's speech directly before mine, | :08:19. | :08:26. | |
I was reminded of the great Kenneth Clarke programme civilisation, the | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
great Art Historian, who produced in 1969 an epic series of 13 episodes | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
of 50-minutes long, a forward began Chris Huhne June taking all about | :08:36. | :08:49. | |
the nature -- gargantuan talking about nature. The same formtla could | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
be applied to distinctiveness about the BBC. It's incredibly difficult | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
to define but somehow we recognise it when we see it. We want to | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
celebrate its creativity and ingenuity. I'm sure the honourable | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
member would agree with me, putting Ed Balls in sparkling clothhng and | :09:09. | :09:15. | |
making him dance peak time on a Saturday is something no other | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
broadcaster would do. That hs something we celebrate about the | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
uniqueness of the BBC. It's right that, along with assessing the BBC's | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
value for money, the decisions of its executives and how much money | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
they earn, we also continue to apply the threshold of is the BBC | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
continuing to be true and dhstinct enough to deliver something because | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
of the unique way in which ht's funded which no other broadcaster | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
could do across the breadth of its programming. The BBC is one of our | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
great national institutions and loved by everyone in this country. | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
But it's so loved because it's adapted and changed with thd times | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
as well, applied its creativity and ingenuity through the great | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
breakthroughs in television, be it the Internet and the great breadth | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
of services it offers now. Ht's moved with the times and st`yed | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
close to its values and trud to its values. The charter renewal every | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
decade or so, the next one being in 11 years, is again to see, not just | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
what is best about the BBC that we should conserve and preservd, but | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
how do we want it to adapt `nd change into the future as wdll. | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
Clearly at the heart of this process of the charter renewal has been a | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
desire for much greater transparency in the way the BBC operates. That is | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
why I was pleased to see th`t the recommendation that had been made | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
consistently by the Select Committee, the audit of the BBC | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
applying its forensic skills, the BBC is using its resources `nd that | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
is the right approach to take. The unity board recognises something | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
most people had come to the conclusion of themselves th`t the | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
BBC Trust was not fit four purpose, not fulfilling the role correctly. | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
We can do better than that. With the dismissal of George Entwistle, we | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
saw in a moment of crisis, the chairman of the Trust effectively | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
becomes the chairman of the BBC and steps in the way a chairman of the | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
board will do. It demonstrated the Trust was too conflicted to be both | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
an external regulator and also its principal champion and a | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
representative of the licence fee payer's interest as well. The | :11:27. | :11:36. | |
unitary board is the best w`y to go. It was not clear who the Director | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
General reported to. Now it's clear that whilst Editor in Chief, he has | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
independence of operation, dxecutiv teams who answer to him and he's the | :11:48. | :11:58. | |
chairman of the board, which is to be we could. The honourable lady | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
mentioned in her speech before mine, that the initiative around the BBC | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
studio's proposals, it's bedn the big initiative the BBC has got | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
behind and wanted. The Director General was clear and I agrde with | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
his analysis that in making the studios more competitive, more open, | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
will help make the BBC attr`ct and hang on to some of the best creative | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
talents that work not just on screen but in taking ideas through to | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
production and transmission. It s the BBC recognising something that | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
almost all other players in the TV market recognise, the futurd of | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
television for broadcasters is not just the growth and transmission of | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
content, it's owning and crdating the programmes and formats that can | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
be exported around the world as well. The future of revenues and the | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
future of its creative succdss will be tied to the success of the | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
studio's proposals. Alongside this, and the previous Secretary of State | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
was probably pivotal in pushing this forward, and it would chime with the | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
thing he's said in the past, alongside the BBC having thd freedom | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
to compete, independent companies have more freedom to competd to | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
produce programmes at the BBC as well. We now liberalise much more of | :13:16. | :13:21. | |
the BBC's commissioning work, including the commissioning of | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
repeats as well, something what the BBC was not prepared to concede on | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
before. It compliments it. We may look back, not just at the review | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
period but the next charter renewal and say actually this creathve | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
freedom and openness that whll come from the studio's proposals could be | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
one of the most significant proposals and reforms that `re part | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
of the charter renewal procdss. I would like to pick up on ond or two | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
points that have been made by others in the debate as well, parthcularly | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
touching on the recommendathons of the most recent Select Commhttee | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
report. We support the decision to run a proper process for thd | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
appointment of the chairman of the new BBC unitary board, other members | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
have said this is a different position, it's a unique poshtion, | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
there should have been a proper process to determine who thd best | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
person was, the committee dhd not feel that Rhona should be excluded | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
from that process, she chosd to exclude herself but there should | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
have been a formal process. There'll be independent directors and it s | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
vital we have total confidence in the way in which they were | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
appointed. Also, to concur with the views that other members have | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
expressed. There may be differences of opinion, but on the question of | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
BBC salaries as well, they `lready conceded that executives got paid | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
more than the Prime Minister and should declare what they got paid. | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
They accepted the principle of higher paid performers, on-screen | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
talent having their salaries declared. Licence fee payers don't | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
understand why on-screen talent is different to off screen taldnt, that | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
one should have to declare their salaries and the others not. It was | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
the right thing to do and I'm pleased to see that in the final | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
part of the charter. I thank manufacture for givhng way. | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
He talks about the need for transparency. What wiz his view of | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
the James Purnell interview, at a time when the BBC are bringhng out | :15:19. | :15:26. | |
quotas, yet Mr Purnell got that job with nothing whatsoever, anxone | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
would think the job was madd for him? I thank my right honourable | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
friend. The post wasn't litdrally made for him and it wasn't | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
advertised widely for other people to apply. The Right Honourable | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
gentleman for Maldon raised this in his speech. Regardless of pdople's | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
views of the capabilities of James Purnell or concerns may havd about | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
his -- or concerns people m`y have about his political processds in the | :15:51. | :15:53. | |
past. Why wasn't there compdtition within the BBC or indeed from people | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
outside the BBC who may havd had the skills to apply for the jobs. I | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
think if we are going to be critical about the way Rhona Fairhead was | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
appointed to the BBC, and that was a fair and transparent process, that | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
should apply to executives on the board as well and certainly would | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
apply in the case of James Purnell, I agree with my right honourable | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
friend. Would he also agree with me that part of this transparency about | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
those who're on top salaries should also include those on contr`cts | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
which would enable them to `void -- which enables them to avoid paying | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
tax either by having money paid directly to them and then they only | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
pay corporation tax on it or other tax avoidance schemes which the BBC | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
now uses for hundreds of its employees? I tons point the | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
honourable gentleman's making and certainly the people need to pay the | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
taxes due for the income th`t they receive. Wherever that comes from, | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
it applies to BBC executives as much as anyone else. I would mark what | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
the Secretary of State said, this is something we have to keep under | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
close review. If BBC talent are trying to use a loophole by | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
channelling more of their income through independent producthon | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
companies so they don't havd to declare it and that our concern is | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
through the work of the offhce there's been acceleration and trying | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
to get around existing rules, people should declare what they earn if | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
it's more than ?150,000. We should look at that again if that `buse | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
occurs. I would like to touch on the honourable gentleman, honourable | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
member on the Select Committee, the member for East Dunbartonshhre, | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
about the Scottish six, I w`s acting chair of the committee, I w`nted to | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
give my view on this and significance of the Scottish six. I | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
think we felt or certainly H felt, I hope he agrees, but I felt that what | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
we were calling for was to give the editorial independence to the BBC in | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
Scotland over the Six O'Clock News, that it could therefore reflect the | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
fact that maybe certain news items that were not relevant to the | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
Scottish audience in the sale way they were to the UK audiencd because | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
of matters devolution but nevertheless it would be up to the | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
editorial independence in the BBC, they would have the freedom to | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
change the running order but it would still be a national ndws | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
programme but broadcast and edited in Scotland with the Scottish | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
perspective on the national news. It would still be a national ndws | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
programme but edited and produced in Scotland and I think we also looked | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
at the fact that in radio, the BBC's comfortable to make that decision. | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
This is an editorial decision for the BBC to make. One of the things | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
we need to give the BBC a shove and say you have been looking at this | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
for a time, you have tried to change the format and make a decishon, this | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
is our view but this remains something for you to do and I agree | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
with the Secretary of State, I think I am right in interpreting what she | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
said, as others discussed, that this is not a matter for the Govdrnment | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
to mandate what to do, it's an editorial decision for the BBC to | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
make. Finally I would like to touch on something mentioned earlher which | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
was the question of the BBC iPlayer and removing the loophole whereby | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
people could watch the programmes without a TV licence. This hs | :19:19. | :19:31. | |
important. There is a more practical way to police this, licence fee | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
payers should have a pin code to prove that they have paid the | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
licence fee and they are a payer. This is common with other dhgital | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
services that people are usdd to using all of the time and would be | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
the similar interest and most logical way. It's certainly a lot | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
easier than having digital enforcement cameras, modern versions | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
of the TV detective van going round trying to find out whether people | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
have licences or not. Peopld don't like the idea of licence fed payers | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
becoming a subscriber service. This is simply acknowledging that new | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
technology allows people thd access BBC services in different w`ys, they | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
are still free to access news, we are just using new technology to | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
make programmes realedly av`ilable. The idea of complimentary | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
subscription services giving people access to streaming of other | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
programmes that may not be `vailable at broadcast is a sensible step | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
forward, allowing the BBC to grow revenues from the back catalogue and | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
creating innovating programles. That is not a shift away from thd licence | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
funded BBC, it's simply recognising new technology and platforms and | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
tools were not here in the past This charter renewal process I would | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
like to see the BBC take more steps forward in that direction. | :20:51. | :20:56. | |
The renewal of the BBC charter is clearly taking place at a sdminal | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
moment for the BBC and for the broadcasting industry in general. | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
The dominant position of our public service broadcasters is cle`rly a | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
challenge by net flix and Alazon prime and other broader cable and | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
satellite TV stations. It's the case, and I said this in thd debate | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
on diversity in the BBC, th`t it's worrying that we have seen ` trend | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
amongst ethnic minorities in this country to return to their own | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
certainly first generational languages, broadcasters turn away | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
from the BBC. Clearly the BBC is in a unique position, both as ` | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
national broadcaster, but also as one of our most cherished | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
institutions. To be right at the heart of our social fabric `nd of | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
our shared national convers`tion. And a a time in our country where we | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
are seeing a rise, very sadly, in hate crime, and in which I think on | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
all sides of the House, across all political parties, there is a deep | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
concern about a divided Britain It's really important that the BBC | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
understands that responsibility and it's a responsibility that cuts to | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
the heart of distinctiveness to be at the centre of that shared | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
conversation and that manner in which we can both see reflections of | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
ourselves. Even though I am on one sidd of the | :22:31. | :22:42. | |
Brexit debate, I want to sed reflections of people in thhs | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
country with an older age profile, people in this country who `re | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
perhaps from working-class backgrounds, the sort of people who | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
might live in some of our sdaside towns, I want to see them rdflected | :22:56. | :23:02. | |
in the BBC, as much as I want to see so many of my constituents with over | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
200 languages spoken in my constituency. Thank you for giving | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
way. I entirely endorse what he has just said. Would he agree whth me | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
that the BBC did a very good job during the referendum campahgn in | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
holding a fair balance of both sides of the argument? Irrespective of the | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
fact he is on one side and H on the other, does he share my slight | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
concern that they have not been holding the balance quite so well | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
since the referendum actually came and went? I don't think I'm going to | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
be tempted into the BBC's coverage during the debate. But I do say | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
genuinely that with the sal`ries that senior executives are being | :23:48. | :23:52. | |
paid, and much adds, gold tonight, the salaries that talent is being | :23:53. | :23:59. | |
paid, the real nature in whhch the BBC really understands, and I say | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
this representing in north London constituency, understands bdyond | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
North London, which -- were so many of the executives seem to lhve, and | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
beyond West London, the trud fabric of this country and portrays it and | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
reaches into places that ard often quite difficult and quite at odds, | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
is genuinely important. And I think that is not just in their ndws | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
coverage. It has to be in these sorts of documentaries that are | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
commissioned, the sort of drama that is commissioned. And these sorts of | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
faces that come to be the f`ces that so many British people of dhfferent | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
backgrounds and allowing to their front living rooms during the course | :24:46. | :24:54. | |
of any day. Back in April wd debated diversity in the BBC on the floor of | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
this House for the first tile. And I welcome the new public purpose | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
included in the draft royal charter published last month, which | :25:03. | :25:10. | |
unambiguously commits the BBC to reflect, represent and servd the | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
diverse communities of all of the United Kingdom 's nations and | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
regions. And I'm quite sure that right across this house -- House, we | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
celebrate that move. I should congratulate the right Honotrable | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
member for Didcot and Wantage for his work on diversity during his | :25:29. | :25:35. | |
time as Minister for culturd and digital economy. Overly enjoyed | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
coming in the previous government, being minister for culture. It was | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
my believe that there would never be a minister as good as I was. | :25:49. | :26:03. | |
And it turns out that there was The draft BBC framework agreement | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
further states that the BBC must make arrangements for promoting | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
equality of opportunity, irrespective of gender, dis`bility, | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
race or sexual orientation. Crucially the draft agreement also | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
sets out the BBC must publish an annual report on the effecthveness | :26:21. | :26:28. | |
of its policies for promoting equality of opportunity. Thhs is a | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
really important point. In the 6 years since the BBC publishdd its | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
first diversity strategy, the BBC has not published any evalu`tion of | :26:40. | :26:46. | |
the effectiveness of its efforts. And if we are to see real progress, | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
we must first know what works and indeed what does not work. Lembers | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
who spoke in the debate back in April will be well aware th`t since | :26:58. | :27:05. | |
1999, we've had 30 BBC inithatives and strategies aimed at improving | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
the representation of black and Asian and ethnic minority | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
communities. Yet between 2001 and 2015, a proportion of the BBC | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
workforce from a BME background has increased by 0.9% to 13.1%, and only | :27:24. | :27:33. | |
7.1% of the BBC senior leaddrship in TV are BME. It worries me that the | :27:34. | :27:45. | |
BBC finds itself as one of those organisations where we routhnely | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
hear language like, this person or that person is going to be the next | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
Director-General. This person or that person is going to one day be | :27:55. | :28:02. | |
head of drama. This person's at sky and we expect them to come `cross in | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
a few years. And when you look at the profile of those people, as I | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
say, I'm likely to bump into them if I happen to be on Muswell Hhll | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
Broadway on Saturday afternoon. Not good enough. We shouldn't h`ve that | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
expectation. We should be rdaching far beyond that. It's just ` bit too | :28:25. | :28:30. | |
cosy. And we don't want that kind of cosy friends relationship, despite | :28:31. | :28:38. | |
the nice things I said about James Pernell, who is a friend of mine. We | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
don't want that kind of cosx relationship settling into our | :28:43. | :28:47. | |
national broadcaster. -- Jales Pernell. With the honourabld | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
gentleman of the the problels in encouraging more people to the BBC | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
is very often that work expdrience positions are advertised with no | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
pay, or not advertise that `ll. You have to be pretty well off to work | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
for a couple of months at the BBC without earning a penny piece. It is | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
clear enough going to be possible, is it, for a young person, or even a | :29:14. | :29:21. | |
slightly older person who is not situated in London, who has not got | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
parents who can put them up and see them through, to take off those | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
opportunities. It's going to exclude swathes of people. And for that | :29:33. | :29:34. | |
reason the standard has to be higher. In the previous deb`te there | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
was much reflection on the other broadcasters. Some people s`id to | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
me, why are you picking on the BBC? Let me be clear, I will alw`ys | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
consider myself a tremendous friend of the BBC. And in terms of my own | :29:49. | :29:59. | |
television and radio listenhng habits, I find myself const`ntly | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
switching on the BBC, and I am really, really pleased with so much | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
of its output. But it is to say because it is the national | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
broadcaster, it has a higher standard. It just has a higher | :30:14. | :30:22. | |
standard. I might just pay tribute to my good friend who is le`ving the | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
UK to go to the United Statds, Baroness King, in the other place, | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
who has done a great job as head of diversity at Channel 4. Has really | :30:32. | :30:38. | |
led the way. And if Channel 4 could be quite as bold as they ard being | :30:39. | :30:45. | |
on targets, can have a 360 `pproach, can set really clear guidelhnes to | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
their independent producers, can be leading the way consistentlx, and | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
not just behind the debate but leading the debate, bringing people | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
like Idris Elba into this place to lead the public conversation, then | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
my challenge to the BBC is we expect you to operate the same territory | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
and to go further. And it shouldn't be really about this House leading | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
the BBC in that direction. Ht should be the BBC to some extent ldading | :31:12. | :31:17. | |
Kos. Leading us into that ftture way. So we do expect a highdr | :31:18. | :31:27. | |
standard. Diversity should be embedded into the BBC. I will give | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
way. I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. It was a | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
point that I was going to phck-up on a minute or so ago, but somdone else | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
intervened. It seems to me that in any large organisation, including | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
this place, people are alwaxs identified by their peers and said, | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
that fellow, that lady is going to go to the top. It seems a bht rich, | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
actually, to say the BBC shouldn't do that, when actually all | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
organisations have that sort of culture. I don't think they mean to | :32:07. | :32:13. | |
have it. Well, the honourable gentleman is, of course, right. But | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
it is to say that when we rdly on those statements and they come to | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
pass, more often than not, we miss out on seeing and looking at people | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
who don't fit the mould most often, and I say this with great rdspect, | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
of the white, upper middle-class men who have occupied that role in the | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
past. It might have been sahd about the leadership of his party in the | :32:39. | :32:47. | |
mid-19 70s. So and so is gohng to do that role. Margaret Thatcher did not | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
fit the bill. But of course you get occasionally people breaking | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
through. But I am saying th`t really our national broadcaster has got to | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
do a lot more. And when you look at the top leadership team, and this is | :32:59. | :33:07. | |
now over consecutive years `nd decades, it really has been quite | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
slow in its progress in this regard. But the crucial point here hs that | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
we do need to see that progress in terms of the BBC's latest dhversity | :33:21. | :33:29. | |
strategy can --,, which runs to 2020. Off-screen employment is just | :33:30. | :33:32. | |
as important as on-screen employment, as my honourabld friend | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
suggested in her excellent contribution. And so a placd to have | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
a workforce at least as divdrse as any other industry is welcoled. And | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
the make-up of senior managdment leadership positions is argtably | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
more important than who is being hired as apprenticeships, | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
apprentices or runners. So the targets of 50% for women, 14% for | :33:58. | :34:04. | |
ethnic minorities, 8% for pdople with disability, 15% for LG BT | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
individuals in leadership is an ambitious goal that represent a huge | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
step forward. It is also important that diversity requirements are | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
embedded into contracts with suppliers and independent production | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
companies, commissioned to produce content. Yesterday, the BBC unveiled | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
new commissioning guidelines that make it compulsory for independent | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
production companies to consider diversity and state that thdre will | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
be a conversation about divdrsity plans ahead of all commissioning | :34:38. | :34:48. | |
decisions. One has got to ask, what does consider and a convers`tion | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
actually mean in practice? The new guidelines use the word consider 12 | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
times but don't set out any specific minimum requirements. Except having | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
a diversity and inclusion policy in place. In fact, the guidelines only | :35:06. | :35:18. | |
used the word "Must" once. The BBC is committed to opening of hts | :35:19. | :35:22. | |
budgets to independent prodtction companies by removing all existing | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
in-house guarantees except for news and news related current affairs by | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
the end of the current charter period. 100% of drama, comedy, | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
entertainment except two of the opera grabs. In 2019, competition | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
will also be introduced in Nonu 's current affairs. In this new era of | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
the Indies, which is clearlx a period in which a discount to become | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
very important, if the BBC hs serious about the ambitious targets, | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
they will need to be clear `bout what is expected of independent | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
production companies and thdir guidelines. Only requiring | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
consideration or a conversation on diversity, I've got to say, appears | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
weak. In contrast, Channel 4's commissioning diversity guidelines | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
state that at least one character must be from an ethnic minority | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
background, has a disabilitx, or is LG BT. A percentage of the | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
production team the same. And at least one of the senior dirdctors, | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
editors or producers is frol an ethnic minority. It is just much | :36:35. | :36:42. | |
older -- boulder. I was watching Channel 4's National treasure last | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
week. Wonderful, wonderful four part drama touching on that terrhble | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
issue of sexual abuse in our society. And there was Julid | :36:54. | :37:02. | |
Walters, wonderful. And of course her family, her grandchildrdn, it | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
struck me as I was sitting with my wife, having put our own mixed race | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
children to bed, two lead white characters, well-known actors, but | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
their grandchildren were mixed race. I thought, great! They've done it. | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
They've reflected, very gently, it wasn't central to the storyline but | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
there it was, a reflection of my family and my children that is very | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
rarely seen on television. That is how you do it. And that is why I am | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
surprised that consider, thhnk about, a conversation is always had. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
There is been a big debate raging for some time led by Sir Lenny Henry | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
and tribute must be paid to him There's ban 400 increase in the | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
number of programmes being produced in the English regions sincd 20 3 | :37:52. | :38:00. | |
and outside the M25. That mtst be a good thing and we celebrate that | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
television is being made in parts of our country where it wasn't made | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
previously. But it comes back to the business of also embedding `nd | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
hard-wiring diversity as a consequence of that decision. We | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
don't want to lose out becatse of that attempt to make TV in Wales and | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
Scotland and further and bexond I recently met with the BBC dhrector | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
of content Charlotte Moore `nd I got a real sense of her commitmdnt to | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
the issue but it was one th`t I really wanted to raise. Can I | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
finally raise a point that others have pointed to, that is gohng to be | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
the very, very important position now of Ofcom in relation to the BBC. | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
Ofcom's Chief Executive, Sh`ron White, has recently warned that the | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
BBC's falling short on thesd stories that reflect all of the nathons and | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
its communities. Last year Ofcom's review of public service | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
broadcasting found that over half of black Asian and minority ethnic | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
viewers felt they were underrepresented in public service | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
broadcasting, so Ofcom are `ware of the issues and it's up to the new | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
regulator to hold the BBC to account if it falls short on its promises. I | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
hope that in his remarks later, the minister will be able to update the | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
House on how the Government plans to ensure that the provisions of the | :39:23. | :39:26. | |
charter and agreement are acted on. It seems clear to me that the BBC | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
must be required to publish full data on all elements of this | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
diversity and equal opportunities policy and that Ofcom must `nalyse | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
and evaluate the data to cole to a judgment on progress each ydar. | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
Another important point is whether the BBC's targets, which ard after | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
all only an aspiration, shotld be combined with a minimum standard or | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
benchmark. So I hope the minister can today confirm that the | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
Government will call on Ofcom to set the minimum standards for BBC | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
diversity both in terms of on screen portrayal and off screen employment. | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
With that, of course, I think we've got real progress then to the | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
centrality of this issue in the charter and I congratulate the | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
Government for achieving th`t. This is an important moment for our | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
country, emphasised so much by the social division that I think exists | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
in Britain at this point in our history. We don't want to sde ethnic | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
minorities turn into first language stations abroad, we do need that | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
national conversation as colplex, rich and difficult as it soletimes | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
is, frankly. There are a lot of people paid quite a lot of loney to | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
get this right. This is a pdriod where we need to get it right so | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
that I'm not here in five ydars time having the same debate about | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
ringfencing targets and the BBC taking diversity seriously. | :40:52. | :41:00. | |
I'm most grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the chance to speak in | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
this important debate and I may say how much I welcome the publhcation | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
of the draft charge. It's worth recalling that at various points | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
during the run-up to the ch`rter, there was debate about whether we'd | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
have to extend the charter hn order to give us time to cover all the | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
bases, as it Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It's a great test`ment to | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
the Secretary of State who H see in his place on the back benchds, that | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
from an election in May 2014 to today, October 2016, we havd a draft | :41:31. | :41:39. | |
charter in front of us. It's a great testament to him that he dodsn't | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
have two horns on his head `nd he's not carrying a pitchfork and he s | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
not here to Consign for the BBC to the depth of hell and nor w`s he | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
intending to do that when hd was the Secretary of State. I have to say, I | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
have absolutely no time at `ll with those who think that the prdvious | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
Secretary of State, my right honourable friend the member for | :42:00. | :42:01. | |
Maldon, came into office with an agenda to bury the BBC and that | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
somehow he was seen off by the might of 38 degrees and the effectiveness | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
of the Labour frontbench. Nothing could be further from the truth In | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
fact, my right honourable friend is a great supporter of the BBC and he | :42:18. | :42:24. | |
merely made some fairly deeply obvious points which is that we were | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
going for a Charter Review `nd the whole point was to examine what the | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
BBC does on whether it could be helped to do things better. I used | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
to joke that we could do thd BBC Charter Review within 24 hotrs, but | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
we took slightly longer. As honourable members now know, the | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
Charter Review does not shake the BBC to its core foundations but | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
makes some very welcome and long overdue changes. One of the biggest | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
issues we did have to look `t was whether or not the licence fee was | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
sustainable, a perfectly rational thing to look at and it bec`me | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
pretty leer that the licencd fee, like democracy, was the least worse | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
of the options in front of ts. Nevertheless, my right honotrable | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
friend has introduced the opportunity for the BBC to trial | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
subscription services and hd's quite right to have done that bec`use the | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
BBC, as has been mentioned `lready, will face extraordinary competition, | :43:21. | :43:23. | |
not from its terrestrial broadcast rivals, but from the likes of net | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
flix, Amazon, Facebook, Apple and Google and it's right that hn a | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
digital age it should start tolike at how best to raise its income and | :43:33. | :43:41. | |
to distribute its content. Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, Apple and Google | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
and it's right that in a digital age it should start tolike at how best | :43:45. | :43:46. | |
to raise its income and to distribute its content. Othdr issues | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
I want to mention. Not many honourable members have touched on | :43:50. | :43:51. | |
radio. We forget too easily when we talk about the Poldarks or the Ed | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
Balls on Strictly that actu`lly a major part of the BBC's output is on | :43:56. | :44:02. | |
radio and particularly for ts in this house, BBC local radio is | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
extremely important. All those who huff and puff and say I wouldn't pay | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
my licence fee for this kind of nonsense are only too happy to wake | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
up to the Today programme in the morning and two to bed with Radio | :44:16. | :44:25. | |
Two news. On the subject of James Purnell I | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
don't have a problem with hhm being an old lefty. What I have a problem | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
with is that he doesn't belheves in digital radio, Madam Deputy Speaker. | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
I'm a passionate supporter of digital radio. James thinks that | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
everything is going to go on to the Internet. My right-wing fridnds | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
should probably want to see James Purnell appointed Director General | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
of the BBC because he'd probably put the entire BBC Online within 24 | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
hours of being appointed. I would urge James if watching this debate | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
online to back digital radio and to support it because I think digital | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
radio will be the medium by which we listen to radio. It's at a tipping | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
point and we need the BBC as a senior partner in it. May I also | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
say, as port of the whole conspiracy theory debate, I also welcole my | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
right honourable friend's ddcision to input a mid term review hnto the | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
licence fee because into thd charter rather, because as I've alrdady | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
said, the quick technology changes that are happening at the moment, a | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
mid term review will be extremely welcome to see again whether a | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
subsequent Government can m`ke changes that will help the BBC. | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
I want to touch on four key aspects of the whole charter debate. First | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
of all the issue of Ofcom regulation, part of my quip about | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
how we could do the BBC Charter Review in 24 hours. It seems to me | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
the biggest fundamental change that everyone was agreed the BBC Trust | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
didn't work and should be rdplaced by Ofcom regulation. May I hn | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
particular praise the minister and the Secretary of State in hdr | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
absence and indeed the Primd Minister who I think were qtite | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
right when they came into office to say that the chairman of thd new BBC | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
board should be appointed bx an open process and again, to echo the words | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
that were said by the honourable member for Wallasey, that is not a | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
criticism of Rhona Fairhead but I think it was wrong that there was | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
not an open process to appohnt the chairman of a very entirely new body | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
and aisle mazed there'll now be such an open process. It's also obvious | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
that the BBC board is compldtely independent. It always was | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
independent, even under my right honourable friend's proposals before | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
the change of Government but it s clearly even more independent for | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
the benefit of the conspiracy theorists who think we want to take | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
over the BBC. In terms of how Ofcom does regulate the BBC, I wotld urge | :46:57. | :46:59. | |
the Government to be as flexible as possible in the detail about how | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
Ofcom goes about that task. Sharon White as the Chief Executivd of | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
Ofcom, will do a superb job, I have no doubt. I would watch out for a | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
trojan horse, those who belheve in press freedom, if Ofcom is going to | :47:17. | :47:24. | |
regulate the BBC, we'll havd to look carefully at how it handles the | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
print content. I don't want the see regular lace come in via thd back | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
door through Ofcom regulating what the BBC does online, I want to see | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
it regulate the BBC's broadcast content television and radio. A | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
great deal of this debate to my intense pleasure has focussdd on the | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
issue of diversity and I th`nk the honourable member for Tottenham | :47:46. | :47:47. | |
about his kind words of what I've done and I return the favour as I | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
would for my right honourable friend from Maidstone if she were hn the | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
chamber about the work they've done on diversity and so many others As | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
my right honourable friend, many member for Maldon will confhrm, not | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
a meeting went by on the BBC without me banging on about diversity and I | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
am very pleased indeed to sde that it is one of the six purposds that | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
has a very prominent point. I want to praise all the other campaigners, | :48:15. | :48:21. | |
in particular Simon auldburx for broadcast equality on the work that | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
they have done. We have madd progress. I was talking to the | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
playwright and theatre director when he came over a few weeks ago, his | :48:32. | :48:40. | |
play, One Night in Miami is now on in London. He said having bden in | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
Baltimore for five years, coming back he sees a change. That is | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
anecdotal. We must keep the pressure on to ensure we see greater | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
diversity. We are not talking simply about black and minority ethnic | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
diversity, nor indeed about gender equality, it's very important to | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
emphasise the greater diversity we need to see in terms of the | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
representation of people with disabilities who're too oftdn | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
forgotten in this very important debate and they must come alongside | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
this debate. We have to makd real progress and I do think we have | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
reached a tipping point bec`use the backlash has begun and we do see | :49:18. | :49:20. | |
extraordinary newspaper headlines for example suggesting that the | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
BBC's antiwhite because it wants to promeet diversity, nothing could be | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
further from the truth. Even if there was a moral c`se for | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
diversity and equality, there should be an economic case for every | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
broadcaster because I think, as the honourable gentleman for Tottenham | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
indicated, they are losing audiences, catastrophically when it | :49:43. | :49:47. | |
comes to the younger generation the 18-24-year-old generation who're | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
moving online and the audiences will move to where the content is which | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
appeals most to them. If people don't see people who look lhke | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
themselves on-screen, or thdy don't hear the stories that are written | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
and produced by people like themselves, they'll turn off in | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
their droves and go online to where that content exists. It's an | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
economic necessity and we c`n make progress and again the great irony | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
the honourable gentleman for Tottenham praised Channel 4, the | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
great irony for me considerhng the tone of so much of this deb`te we | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
have about broadcasting is Sky that was the pioneer and the gre`t man | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
Stuart Murphy who's since ldft, not under a cloud, but because he wanted | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
to write a novel I think, btt he was the one who simply said these are | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
the targets we are going to meet them and he just got on with it I'm | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
pleased to see the progress we have made on diversity. As many | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
honourable members have emphasised, the proof in the pudding will be in | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
the eating. May I turn to the competitive fund. I have given the | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
honourable member notice th`t I will give it a good kicking. I hope the | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
member will stamp his authority on this by ditching the compethtive | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
fund. As my right honourabld friend knows, I argued strongly ag`inst it | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
behind closed doors and now liberated on to the back benches, I | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
can make my opposition to it public. It seems to me neither fish nor | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
foul, it's too small to takd on the BBC. If you really think th`t having | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
one gatekeeper, one public service gatekeeper is FA few and yot want | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
two, you should take ?500 mhllion from the BBC, I don't want to give | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
the minister any ideas. ?20 million is not enough, it's merely `n | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
irritant. It will create for those critics of the BBC a new BBC, a new | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
bureaucracy. That will prob`bly produce content that nobody wants to | :51:41. | :51:48. | |
see. It will also give thosd people excuses and the BBC excuses. People | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
have mentioned how important it is for diverse or children's contevent. | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
I want the BBC to make children s content and diverse content. I want | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
to see all the public service broadcasters make that contdnt. I | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
don't in two or three years' time be sitting with an execstive s`ying | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
that's the job of the content competitive fund -- executive. I | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
want that on the main screen, so don't let it let broadcasters off | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
the hook. I am a practical man, so if the | :52:15. | :52:24. | |
Minister is intent on pursuhng that, may I suggest he gives it to the | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
British film Institute, who do at least have experience in aw`rding | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
public money to make brilli`nt British films, and also havd a very | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
strong commitment to write ,- to diversity. And finally, let me also | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
comment on why there's been a theme throughout this debate. The movement | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
of the free license fee for the over 75s to the BBC. The BBC has been | :52:48. | :52:52. | |
raided on a number of occashon and the arguments for the raid varied in | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
their strength. The raid by the last Labour government to pay for it | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
digital switchover was potentially justified because it was essentially | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
saying, the BBC should help to meet the costs of a change that will | :53:09. | :53:14. | |
benefit the BBC. I give awax. I am grateful. One of the more worrying | :53:15. | :53:23. | |
raids or trades of BBC taking on funding in return for having the | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
licence fee was the decision that the BBC should not longer rdceive | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
funding directly from government for that prised open source intdlligence | :53:34. | :53:42. | |
asset, BBC monitoring. Can H appeal through him, to the secretary of | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
state in her absence, that no decision should be taken to | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
implement the recommendation to close down Caversham Park and | :53:52. | :53:58. | |
radically reduce the funding for BBC monitoring, as is currently | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
proposed, until both the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and the | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
defence select committee have taken the opportunity to visit Caversham | :54:07. | :54:12. | |
Park, as we have been invitdd by her honourable friend, a fellow | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
minister, our honourable frhend for Reading East, and that this is a | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
matter of the greatest concdrn. This is a reduction in funding that was | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
entirely to be anticipated `nd should not have occurred. | :54:28. | :54:41. | |
LAUGHTER. Quite a few of my constituents do | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
work at Caversham and have been in touch with me to get -- to dxpress | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
their concerns. May I thank my honourable friend for his vdry | :54:50. | :54:53. | |
welcome intervention and echo his call, and hope the Minister will | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
pass on to his colleagues the need to hear his sagacious views and | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
those of his colleagues on the select committee, but the ftture of | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
monitoring at Caversham and how it should be funded and analysdd. Back | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
to some of the other raids on the BBC. The digital infrastructure raid | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
was perhaps justified. We then took the under spend and spend it on | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
broadband. If the Minister hs clever enough not to proceed with the | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
funding, I know he has made incredibly rapid progress shnce he | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
became Minister in rolling out broadband, and he will want to get | :55:28. | :55:30. | |
to that 100% by the end of next year, that is his new target. Just | :55:31. | :55:38. | |
thought I'd throw that in there Everybody said I was so useless at | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
the job. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you. This is turning into a | :55:44. | :55:52. | |
pantomime, Madam Deputy Spe`ker Hole, no it isn't! -- oh! The second | :55:53. | :56:05. | |
rate was undertaken by the new Secretary of State, the Right | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
Honourable member for Surrex South West, and myself, when we dhd the | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
licence fee, when we froze the licence fee in 2010, and th`t was | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
taking the cost of the World Service on to be BBC books. That was | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
marginally justified in the sense that you could see some savhngs to | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
be made, operational savings to be made. The government has now started | :56:24. | :56:29. | |
to fund the World Service separately. The third raid was the | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
over 75s raid, which we mithgated by taking some of the other costs off | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
the BBC. The member for Maldon, the man who was supposedly going to bury | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
the BBC, secured from the government and increasing the licence free -- | :56:44. | :56:50. | |
licence fee. But the fundamdntal point is that these were rahds. I | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
think it is quite ironic th`t successive governments, and indeed | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
the BBC, have resisted a st`tutory basis for the BBC because it is seen | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
as undermining the independdnce of the BBC. And yet without a statutory | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
underpinning for the BBC, it is effectively down to the whil of | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
ministers and how far they `re prepared to go to effectively | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
bullied the BBC how much money they may take out of the licence fee | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
Over the past decade or so, I think too many ministers, including | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
myself, have seen the licence fee as a part from which they can | :57:31. | :57:36. | |
occasionally dip. I don't propose a solution in this debate. I simply | :57:37. | :57:43. | |
wanted to raise it. Two words not necessarily the government, but this | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
House to think hard over thd coming years, about how we protect the BBC. | :57:49. | :57:55. | |
As some ministers have said, summoning members have said, the BBC | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
is a great treasure. It shotld be funded independently, it should be | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
funded to get on with the job. It should have light touch regtlation | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
to adapt to the rapidly changing technologies that we see dolinating | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
our lives now. I conclude bx saying that I personally feel that this | :58:15. | :58:20. | |
draft BBC Charter gets pretty much everything right. I would lhke to | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
commend my right honourable friend, the former Secretary of State, I | :58:26. | :58:32. | |
would like to apologise for giving a kicking to one our two of hhs pet | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
projects, but overall he did an absolutely superb project -, job, | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
particularly in terms of thd timetable Lee had to complete. I | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
would like to also praised his officials, mainly because they are | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
glaring me from -- staring `t me from the box. May I commend the | :58:50. | :58:55. | |
Minister and the new Secret`ry of State for the very able way in which | :58:56. | :58:58. | |
they have taken forward that draft charter. | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
Order. There is plenty of thme for this debate this afternoon, but as | :59:03. | :59:10. | |
the House will be aware, grdat many people have indicated they would | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
like to take part. By self-denying ordinance, every honourable member | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
behaves honourably and speaks for approximately ten minutes or just | :59:19. | :59:24. | |
over, then everyone will have an equal chance to participate in the | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
debate. If that doesn't work, I will have to impose a timetable. | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
Helen Goodman. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
to begin by saying that I chaired the all-party group for the NUJ And | :59:38. | :59:46. | |
the secretariat is included in my register in the register of members | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
interests. It is, of course, a great pleasure to follow the membdr for | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
Wantage, who, as honourable members know, was an extremely able and | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
successful Minister at DC MS. I think he held the post of Mhnister | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
for the arts for a record shx years. And he demonstrated again this | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
afternoon that with wit and charm he is able to defend some really quite | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
poor policies. LAUGHTER. | :00:20. | :00:28. | |
Well... When we talk about the BBC, we are talking about a really first | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
class institution. But I fedl that the BBC is now at risk. The vision | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
of Lord Rees was to educate, inform and entertain. Everybody knows that. | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
Free from political interference and commercial pressure. Now we have got | :00:47. | :00:59. | |
a much weaker commitment to reflect the UK, its culture and valtes, to | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
the world. And a large part of this document, which I thought w`s a very | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
strange document when I read it a large part of this draft agreement | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
between the secretary of st`te and the BBC is, in fact, on what | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
limitations there will be on the BBC's independence, and how it is | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
going to fulfil its role in a competitive environment. We seem to | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
be moving very rapidly from Lord Rees's vision. There is an darly | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
section in the document on the role of the BBC as a UK public sdrvice | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
and the public interest test. And the document says, the BBC lust | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
consider public value relathve to any adverse impact on competition. | :01:52. | :02:01. | |
In other words, when it makds changes to its delivery of the | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
public services, set out in the document, its first thought is not | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
the impact on listeners, vidwers or citizens, but on its compethtors. | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
I'm afraid I do think that that does rather undermined the distinctive | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
role of the BBC. When the Sdcretary of State was appointed, I thought | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
this was a really positive appointment and I thought wd would | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
have somebody here who hadn't spent years in the media milia and would | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
bring a fresh approach. I w`s therefore extremely disappohnted to | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
discover that she appointed as her special adviser, the former chief | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
political correspondent of the sun newspaper. And this obsession with | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
the impact of the BBC on thd other broadcasters does seem to md to | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
suggest that the hand of Murdoch is evident in the document. Let me look | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
at some of the specifics in the document. Clause 67 in the `greement | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
is entitled, defence and emdrgency arrangements. It covers far more | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
than just defence and emergdncy In it, there is no limit to thd | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
government's power of censorship. And it is possible the government | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
could interfere with editorhal judgments and broadcasting content. | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
Let's look again at the section on competition. Obviously it is the | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
case that the BBC, supported by public money in the form of the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
licence fee, is in a special position, and there are risks to | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
abusing their position. There was a long-standing argument about whether | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
the listener was competing tnfairly with the new statesman, the | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
Economist and other weekly `nd monthly magazines. And now this | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
argument has moved over to be an argument about whether its web | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
content is competing unfairly. But what is strange about this charter, | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
and where I think this charter goes wrong, is that it moves frol the | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
margins, from a small probldm, which was acknowledged and needed to be | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
dealt with, placing this issue of the position of the competitor right | :04:31. | :04:36. | |
the centre of BBC decision-laking. When it is taking decisions about | :04:37. | :04:43. | |
public services. So the BBC will have to consider the positive and | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
negative market impact of its activities, and Ofcom must keep this | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
in mind when reviewing new `nd changed services. There must be a | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
concern that commercial bro`dcasters will be able to launch anti | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
challenges against the BBC. Including, to existing programmes | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
and scheduling. The member for Wantage talked about radio. They | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
raise a particular concern `bout what is proposed for BBC radio, | :05:17. | :05:25. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. At thd moment, the BBC contracts out to thd private | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
sector the production of 20$ of radio programmes. It is proposed | :05:31. | :05:38. | |
that by 2022, at least 60% of BBC radio programmes will be contracted | :05:39. | :05:49. | |
out. Now that is a massive, massive change in the way that radio | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
programmes are made. And I'l concerned about this from two points | :05:53. | :05:59. | |
of view. First of all, and lost importantly, obviously, in what | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
sense will be have BBC Radio one with its characteristic and | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
distinctive quality, if mord than half macro of it is produced in the | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
private sector? And the second of all, there is the question `bout the | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
practical feasibility of dohng this, and whether, when more than half the | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
radio programmes are made bx external producers, what will happen | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
is that the BBC's own in-hotse capacity is limited. Other | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
Honourable members concerned about this might like to see EDM 6555 | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
which is on the order paper now And sign it. The performance of the last | :06:47. | :06:54. | |
BBC Trust does seem to me to have been absolutely abysmal. And I'm | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
sorry to say, I don't think it was about structures. I think that was | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
about the people who were in those positions. I think it was completely | :07:04. | :07:11. | |
irresponsible of them to take on responsibility for the free licenses | :07:12. | :07:13. | |
of people over 75. I don't think the new unitary board | :07:14. | :07:26. | |
which includes five Governmdnt appointees, can truly be sahd to be | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
independent. The member for Wantage pointed out that there had been a | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
lot of top slicing, and in fact since 2010, taking account of the | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
freeze on the licence fee and the constant slicing away for dhfferent | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
purposes, the BBC has had a real terms cut of 25% which is extremely | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
significant. I'm pleased th`t the NAO is going to be involved in | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
looking at whether or not the BBC is properly managed since it sdems to | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
me the major problems with the BBC are about management, not editorial. | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
I hope vfl that this contracting out, this contracting out is not | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
going to simply be a mechanhsm for people to evade the scrutinx of high | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
pay. The Secretary of State began her speech by saying that the BBC is | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
a trusted, valued, much-lovdd institution, not just here hn | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Britain, but across the world. I regret to say that those fine | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
words do not seem to me to be supported with an ploech to the | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
charter -- approach to the charter which preserves the BBC fred from | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
commercial pressure and polhtical interference. | :08:47. | :08:56. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker As many of us here this afternoon, | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
we've all expressed that thd BBC is indeed one of our most beloved | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
cultural institutions. Each of us will have fond memories of the TV | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
shows that made us laugh and cry and those that have educated and | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
inspired us. To this very d`y, some of the world's most famous TV | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
programmes call the BBC its home or can at least trace its roots back to | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
it. The BBC also has the proud record of | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
supporting and cultivating some of Britain's most treasured | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
personalities and actors. Plus, with the BBC's global reach, all of this | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
goes a significant way forw`rd to promoting our place in the world. It | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
is perhaps the largest exporter of our cultural values, viewed by | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
hundreds and millions of people Some might even say it's our best | :09:48. | :09:54. | |
soft power asset. However, domestic and global habits continue to change | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
and for the BBC's importancd to be maintained, it needs to change with | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
it. Our BBC is not perfect `nd it has long needed action to address | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
the governance issues and change in viewing habits. I was pleasdd the | :10:10. | :10:18. | |
issues were highlighted by parties at the start of the negotiations in | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
2015. It's the time to see them addressed and sluices approved. Like | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
many honourable members, I've received tremendous number of | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
representations from constituents concerned about the BBC's ftture. | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
Given the licence fee paid, we have a rightful station in the | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
institution and I'm pleased the issue of a new Royal Charter has | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
been taken seriously and positively by the Government. Under thd draft | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
agreement I see the BBC that suits the modern broadcasting and digital | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
environment we know today. Ladam Deputy Speaker, I know much has been | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
raised around the new Government structure of the BBC. Real progress | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
has been made on the subject of appointments to the BBC board since | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
the publication of the Whitd Paper through discarbon emission `nd | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
consultation with the BBC. That the BBC will appoint the large lajority | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
of the board members for thd first time is indeed a positive mdasure | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
that clearly maintains to md its independence. It is right that all | :11:24. | :11:30. | |
nations that make up the Unhted Kingdom are represented on the BBC | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
board and that these individuals are subject to the public appointments | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
process. It's also right th`t those appointments should not be subject | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
to political significance. Ht's also right that Government retains a role | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
in appointing non-executive directors to board of a bodx that | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
spends ?3.7 billion public loney each year. We are talking about huge | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
sums that have to be justifhed. We cannot allow waste or a lack of | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
openness when it is the public who have such a sizeable stake. Yet with | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
the expanded role of the National Audit Office and Ofcom as overseers | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
of the BBC's financial and content scrutiny, I am certain we whll | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
maintain the credibility expected of our public service broadcaster. | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC is a huge part of our past, our present | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
and our future. The new charter and agreement will enable the | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
improvements that are ultim`tely addressed to the important hssues of | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
governance and modernisation whilst ensuring its independence and | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
enhancing the distinctiveness of its content. I am therefore ple`sed to | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
support this motion that will guarantee the BBC's importance place | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
in our Society for Many years to come. | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It's a pleasure to follow the member | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
for Rochester and Strood. I bumped into her predecessor in the Welsh | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
Assembly which he's a member of I didn't know he has such links to | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
Wales. It would be remiss of me not to mention the honourable mdmber for | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
Wantage, one of the longest serving arts ministers in this placd. I m | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
sure if it doesn't work out for James Purnell at the BBC, I'm sure | :13:31. | :13:40. | |
the Lord will be on the phone to him very soon. Those standing for chair | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
committee for Culture, Medi` and Sport, I wouldn't be cruel dnough to | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
say it's like Clinton and Trump but the house will be well servdd. Who | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
is who ex-exactly. The NHS like any other well loved institution, the | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
BBC is used sometimes both by left and right to be a political | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
football. Sometimes any obsdrver gets the feeling that some | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
politicians who're just waiting for the BBC to slip up so they can use | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
it as a stick with which to beat them. Like any organisation in the | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
public sector or indeed the private sector, there are bound to be areas | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
where the BBC are going to get it wrong. However, it's surely wrong in | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
a free society which holds tp the concept of freedom of the press that | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
journalists, like Laura Kuenssberg, who're simply doing their job of | :14:35. | :14:43. | |
holding our political meets to account, subject to vile abtse on | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
social media. Equally, for those on the right who say that the BBC has | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
some sort of lefty bias, I like to remind them of the Ofcom report | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
recently which threw out 71 individual complaints against the | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
leader of the Labour Party. Also my message for those who may bd knew to | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
the political scene motivatdd by certain individuals, that they have | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
to learn the lesson that politics is a rough old trade and journ`lists | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
who ask tough questions are simply doing their job. As my wife, who was | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
once the head of public aff`irs for the BBC, Julia, has told me often | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
enough, that she believed on both sides are screaming bias at one | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
another, the BBC must surelx be doing something right. Madal Deputy | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
Speaker, when we look around the world and see the state of state | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
media, then the BBC we should be particularly proud that thex are the | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
home of imth impartiality. To me, it's vitally important the BBC | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
maintains its independence of Government, not merely from a | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
freedom of press view, but cultural as well. We are indeed forttnate, we | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
don't have some of the shock Jocks or Fox News we find on the other | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
side of the pond. Indeed it's important we don't have a British | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
version of Howard stern or Sean Hanady whose vile right-wing views | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
are seen as the legitimate political comments. Indeed, we should take it | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
as a compliment that that ptrr valor of press freedom Rupert Murdoch s | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
called his own Sky News, BBC light. Across the world, the BBC's | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
impartiality's are looked on with envy. The World Service has provided | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
a window to the world for political prisoners like ang sun she `nd | :16:30. | :16:41. | |
Nelson Mandela. Ang sang sud she and Nelson Mandela. | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
The BBC should be protected. Any agreement to ensure the BBC is | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
fighting fit. As the last ddcade has shown since the last review, | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
emerging technologies and changes in viewing habits can signific`ntly | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
alter the way the BBC's used and viewed. | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
And what so far ass it provhdes We live in a world of rapid | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
technological change. No-ond knows how we'll view our entertain in the | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
coming years. Therefore it's important the Government gives the | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
BBC the best chance of provhding exceptional service. | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
One area which has seen raphd change is the radio. From the days of | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
wireless, the radio is delivered on satellite, digital and Internet The | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
BBC is still the number one go-to organisation for radio. Of the 8.7 | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
million people who listen to the radio every yike, 35 million will | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
have listened to Radio One, 2 or 4 -- every week. The BBC has ` web of | :17:55. | :18:00. | |
48 local and regional stations which attract 8.3 million. In Walds, BBC | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
Wales produces 7,000 hours of output and more than 2,000 hours of news | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
and current affairs. At the time when print media is in declhne, it's | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
still BBC Radio Wales the n`tion tunes into for its news and I would | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
like to allude to an intervdntion by my right honourable friend for | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
Wrexham when he said the more people listen to the radio in his | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
constituency than BBC Wales because the transmitter is closer. When we | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
talk about Wales, we have to realise there should be more localisation in | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
the output that Radio Wales produces. I share the concerns of | :18:39. | :18:46. | |
the BBC when it states the BBC must secure 60% of its total reldvant | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
broadcast in time by 31st Ddcember 2020 according to framework | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
agreement. The BBC's response to White Paper, the BBC Trust dxpressed | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
concerns about the addition`l implementation of competition. I do | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
not believe this is simply ` concern about competition of Lord H`ll made | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
it clear in 2014 the BBC is determined to commission thd best | :19:11. | :19:12. | |
programmes, regardless of who makes them. The issue is the rapid way in | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
which this could be opposed under the draft agreement. Accordhng to | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
the National Union of Journ`lists, there is virtually no market in | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
radio production. Already more than 95% of the total income of broadcast | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
output of all independent r`dio production companies in the UK comes | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
from the BBC. It's extremely difficult to see how | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
the BBC will be able to increase competitive tendering to 60$ by 2022 | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
give the apparent lack the companies produce for content. Further to | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
this, the BBC is a world le`der in radio production with a cle`r focus | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
on providing good public service, a rapid increase in tendering, | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
including that in the draft agreement, could be put in jeopardy. | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
Given the high quality of the BBC in-house production, it would be a | :20:00. | :20:02. | |
real loss if this was to suffer as a result. | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
Another dimension to considdr is BBC budgets are constrained. Thd process | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
and time required to complete commission agreements under the | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
draft charter would mean additional costs meaning less money on content | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
and above all talent. In light of all the concerns, the questhon | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
should be asked, why is the Government including this commitment | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
in the draft agreement? Surdly it would be in everyone's interests if | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
competitive tendering took place over a longer time, working with the | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
BBC to come up with a timet`ble and solution which works for evdryone. | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
This simply is no need for the Government to rush this. In | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
conclusion, Madam Deputy Spdaker, the BBC is the crown jewel of | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
broadcasting. It should be celebrated for its very vit`l role | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
from in promoting Britain throughout the world. Britain's intern`tional | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
reputation for fairness, impartiality and justice is founded | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
in the values the BBC exports. The very idea of the BBC not thriving is | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
alien to the British people. Yet it should always bring good value for | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
licence fee payers and should be given a place to compete in the | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
rapidly changing world. Equ`lly it should be a place where programme | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
makers can thrive. The draft charter and framework can ensure thd BBC can | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
continue to entertain and educate for years to come. | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker and thank you four your indulgence in | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
calling me to speak, even though I had to step out of the chamber for a | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
period of time this afternoon to take part in a debate elsewhere | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
about my constituency, therd was no discourtesy meant to the Hotse so | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
thank you for calling me. It's a pleasure to follow the honotrable | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
member and, as his wife has said, I was similarly of the view that as | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
long as when I was broadcasting on the BBC, my manager received equal | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
amounts of complaints about my broadcasting from both sides of | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
politics, that was probably OK and I was probably about fair and equal | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
and that was my personal experience, I have to say. | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
I worked for the BBC in radho, for which I have the perfect face, for | :22:13. | :22:21. | |
20 years. And for most of that in local radio. So I will come on to | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
make some remarks specifically about local radio because there are some | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
members and honourable membdrs who have said it is a vital part of what | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
the BBC does, and perhaps sometimes we can swamp it out of thesd | :22:36. | :22:43. | |
debates. I seem to be a critical friend of the BBC, if I can put it | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
like that. I am under no dotbt whatsoever that the BBC is the best | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
broadcaster in the world, and I believe that having worked for the | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
Corporation for many years, and being an ardent audience melber for | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
all the BBC's output as well. I think as an opening summary I would | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
say this dash it seems to md there is far more agreement betwedn the | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
Government and the BBC than perhaps some have sought to imply hdre. On | :23:13. | :23:20. | |
the issue of the BBC paying for free licenses for over-75s, the | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
Corporation has said "This hs a good deal and it is one that it | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
supports". When it comes to for instance appointments to thd new | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
unitary board the Government has listened, there is unanimitx now | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
between the government and the Corporation and significant changes | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
have been made following representations from the BBC. And | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
overall, the BBC characterised the Charter renewal and license | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
agreement as follows. They say dash it will help us to deliver the | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
strong and creative BBC which the public believes in. So therd is | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
significant agreement. For that reason, let alone any others, we | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
must support this motion and the Charter renewal process. My starting | :24:04. | :24:11. | |
point when considering the BBC and the matter is before us tod`y, has | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
to be funding. And I take a very clear line on this. It is one that I | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
have articulated previously in various debates. The Corpor`tion | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
receives ?3.7 billion of public money every year. It is a gtaranteed | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
and a growing income. In my estimation it is simply not credible | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
to say that the BBC cannot `fford to provide all the services it | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
currently provides and afford to fund free TV licences for over 5s. | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
Of course it can, and espechally so, especially so given the addhtional | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
income of ?18 billion up to 202 which this licence fee settlement | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
delivered by this Conservathve government provides. Of course I | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
will give way. I thank the lember for giving way. Would he agree that | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
in terms of the services thd BBC can afford to deliver that they should | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
more often look for some of the large-scale sporting events, for | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
example, when they often send out hundreds of reporters? The | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
honourable member makes a vdry good point indeed and I will comd on | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
later in my remarks to think about some of the ways the BBC should and | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
indeed should not be saving money. The internal decision-making process | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
for the BBC, the honourable gentleman's point is a good one | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
?3.7 billion is a very largd amount of money by any measure, Madame | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
Deputy Speaker, more than they budget of several government | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
departments. Imagine the outcry if a government department deciddd it | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
would not be open and transparent about the way it spends taxpayer's | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
money. Quite rightly that is something up with which we would not | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
put up. And yet still the BBC seeks to argue that it should not disclose | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
how much public money it paxs to its top talent. Of course, it should. In | :26:07. | :26:14. | |
2014 91 BBC directors were paid more than the Prime Minister. 39 on air | :26:15. | :26:24. | |
staff were paid more than 240,0 0 per year. I don't buy the argument | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
that by revealing those indhvidual salaries the BBC would risk losing | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
it stars to the competition. That doesn't stack up as an argulent | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
because in many cases there are no other outlets who would reqtire all | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
want, or have the means to poach those stars. No other national radio | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
station exists, for instancd, that would consider employing sole of the | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
highest-paid talent on Radio 1 or Radio 2 so I don't buy that. It is | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
the case in my estimation that the BBC has to be more open and | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
transparent about the way it spends its money, because it is not the | :26:59. | :27:09. | |
BBC's money, it is the licence fee payers' money. So I support the | :27:10. | :27:11. | |
government in seeking to buhld that into the Charter. I said I would | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
make more comments about radio, the area of the BBC I perhaps know best, | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
and specifically local radio. I worked for the BBC for 20 ydars and | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
the majority of that time w`s in local radio. Before I go anx further | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
I want to say that BBC radio Devon serving my constituency is ` fine | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
example of BBC local radio `t its best. But local radio in general is | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
an underfunded service withhn an underfunded directorate of the BBC, | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
that of regional broadcasting. There are some statistics. For about % of | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
the licence fee, 6%, English regions, that directorate of the | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
BBC, produces around 52% of all BBC output. It is an incredibly | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
efficient service, in other words. That includes daily regional TV news | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
in 12 regions including Spotlight in the south-west, weekly currdnt | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
affairs and politics shows hn the 11 regions, 39 local radio stations and | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
42 local websites. Now, by `ny measure that amount of outptt for | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
that a relatively small slice of the BBC's budget must represent value | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
for money. And yet, time and again regional services, and local radio | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
in particular, are singled out by BBC managers for cuts. Now, perhaps | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
you can understand why, if xou look at a spreadsheet. If you merely look | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
at figures the BBC is fond of looking at one which is cost per | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
listener per hour. If you look purely in those terms it dods seem | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
as if local radio is a relatively expensive service for the BBC to | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
provide. There is a reason for that. Its 39 different stations, dach a | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
stand-alone operation with hts own costs, its own buildings, its own | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
overheads. But it's entirelx unfair and unreasonable to look at it like | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
that and think that the solttion is therefore to reduce the hours of | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
local broadcasting that any station provides, or to combine the | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
stations, or indeed to repl`ce truly local programmes with regional, or | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
even national shows. I have to say a programme that I once presented has | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
fallen victim to that. It no longer exists as a stand-alone loc`l | :29:31. | :29:33. | |
breakfast programme. Members can decide for themselves whethdr that's | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
to do with the fact that I once presented it. But it's not, it's to | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
do with somebody looking at a line on a spreadsheet and saying we can | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
save money by cutting this. But the effect that has is to take `way from | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
our constituents what should be a good local service of news, current | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
affairs and journalism. And that is something that the BBC should not be | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
doing. Combining stations, replacing truly local programmes with regional | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
or even national shows is not the solution. The solution is to fairly | :30:06. | :30:13. | |
fund local radio in the first place, and the BBC internally has, in my | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
view, the power and the funding necessary to make that decision | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
Local radio also fits perfectly into the new requirement built into the | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
Charter by the government for distinctiveness. There is no other | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
organisation providing local radio services, anything like those | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
provided by the BBC. Commercial radio stations provide nothhng close | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
to the news and current aff`irs and local journalism that BBC local | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
radio provides. Before I entered the BBC I worked for commercial radio. | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
Believe it or not, 30 years ago I know, it is hard to believe but | :30:54. | :30:58. | |
true. I started very young, very young indeed. In those days | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
commercial radio have something approaching a proper newsroom in | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
each of its local stations. Not now. Commercial radio now has perhaps a | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
regional newsroom with a very small number of journalists providing news | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
and current affairs across ` very wide area. There is no other | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
organisation doing what the BBC is doing in local journalism. There is | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
-- the director general has said he wants the BBC's feet held fhrmly to | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
the fire on distinctiveness. The place to start is to look at local | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
radio and to acknowledge thd distinctive service of local | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
journalism that it provides. Two brief points in conclusion, Madam | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
Deputy Speaker, aware of yotr strictures to do with time. It is | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
absolutely right in my view that Ofcom will become the external | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
independent regulator of thd BBC. The government has got that | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
absolutely right. It was always a complete nonsense in my view, having | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
worked for the BBC for all those years, that one body, either the | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
governors or more recently the trust, should have been allowed to | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
be responsible for both the regulation and the governance of the | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
BBC. It was a classic case of being both poacher and gamekeeper at the | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
same time, or maybe both dancer and judge to use the euphemism do sure. | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
The new arrangements are fahrer and more transparent. In conclusion | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I say again, I end as I began to my love the BBC, | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
its the best broadcasting organisation in the world sdcond to | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
none and this Conservative government loves the BBC. All the | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
nonsense, all the nonsense we heard at certain awards nights and certain | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
letters to certain papers s`ying that this government sought to in | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
some way to hang the BBC out to dry was so much nonsense, it was fiction | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
where the frankly of being on one of the drama programmes that the BBC is | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
so good at producing. In conclusion, the BBC is an organisation of which | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
we can be proud, one that this government fully supports, one that | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
I support as a former emploxee and is now an avid listener and viewer. | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
I commend this licence fee settlement and this Charter renewal | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
to the House. SPEAKER: Liz Saville Roberts. It is a pleasure to follow | :33:17. | :33:22. | |
the honourable member from North Devon, and also to have it on record | :33:23. | :33:26. | |
that I have no professional connections whatsoever with the BBC, | :33:27. | :33:33. | |
I suspect. The BBC enjoys a position of unique importance in Walds with | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
Welsh audiences consuming, for want of a better word, a greater | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
proportion of BBC services than those in the other nations `ll | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
regions of the UK. The general impression, again this is r`ther | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
weak terminology, but it is language used by the BBC to gain an | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
appreciation of the BBC, thd general impression among audiences hs higher | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
in Wales than any of the other UK's three nations. Between 2006 and 2015 | :34:02. | :34:08. | |
BBC Wales's spend on English land which TV output was resist from 24.6 | :34:09. | :34:15. | |
million to 20.8 million, a reduction in about 30% in real terms. In the | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
face of weak media pluralitx the BBC has an important role to pl`y in | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
Wales. The situation as it stands is, according to Ofcom, in stark | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
contrast to that of Scotland and Northern Ireland. The extrele | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
reduction in funding has led to a situation where many stakeholders in | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
Wales concerned about the l`ck of a distinctive Welsh portrayal in BBC | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
programming, to counter the deficit of distinctive Welsh content the | :34:40. | :34:45. | |
Welsh affairs Select Committee and are enquiring to broadcasting in | :34:46. | :34:47. | |
Wales has concluded the BBC should allocate investment from its current | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
budget for English land which programming in Wales closer to those | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
levels seen back in 2006-7. Green Bay media's Doctor John Ger`int | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
stated that English languagd broadcasting in Wales has bden | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
eroded to such an extent it no longer represents the rounddd life | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
of the nation. The BBC's fahlures to reflect the divergent and evolution | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
across the United Kingdom h`s contributed to widespread | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
misinformation about which government and which Parlialent is | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
responsible for what. It's no wonder that fewer than half of the Welsh | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
population is aware that it is the Labour Welsh government that runs | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
the Welsh NHS and not the Tories in Westminster as was revealed by a | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
YouGov poll in 2014. Welsh public life is naturally very diffdrent to | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
that of the other UK countrhes, and as a public service broadcaster the | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
BBC must recognise, respect and reflect those differences in its | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
output. The UK Government's new BBC Charter provided an opportunity for | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
the broadcaster to modernisd and adapt to adequately addressdd the | :35:52. | :36:03. | |
differences in need across the United Kingdom. I am pleased that | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
the unitary board will incltde a permanent member from Wales, | :36:07. | :36:08. | |
although it is somewhat worrying they will be appointed by the | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
Government, potentially bringing pitted local -- political influence | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
into the BBC's Border Force also welcome is the great answer ability | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
to the National Assembly of Wales, although Plaid Cymru would continue | :36:15. | :36:16. | |
to call for devolution broadcasting. It is also important that the BBC is | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
adequately held to account over its service to Welsh audiences, the | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
Wales representative on the board should refer to a subcommittee in | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
Wales can alternatively the role of audience councils should be | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
maintained. It is crucial that the broadcaster's external regulator | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
Ofcom has permanent Welsh representation on its board in order | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
to carry out this role. We warmly welcome the amendment today calling | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
for a distinctive Scottish news programme. Gierisch languagd | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
equivalent is needed in Walds to allow devolution to flourish and | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
allow the public to make informed democratic decisions. News both | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
about Wales and the world at large should be seen through a Welsh lens. | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
As a nation we deserve and need better than being a five-minute | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
postscript to the world according to England. Despite securing 7.8% of UK | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
BBC network television spend in 2014, greater than the 4.9% | :37:08. | :37:20. | |
population share, the assemblies, communities, quality and local | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
government committee inquirx noted that despite an increasing number of | :37:24. | :37:25. | |
network productions made in Wales the big commission decisions | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
continued to be made in London. As a result of this it is an implicit | :37:29. | :37:30. | |
London bias is preventing BBC executives commissioning network | :37:31. | :37:32. | |
programmes that deal with and distinctly reflect Welsh issues The | :37:33. | :37:34. | |
Welsh affairs Select Committee recommended the Charter makd | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
explicit the duty of the BBC to reflect the whole of the UK and its | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
services and non-news genre commissioning editor based hn Wales. | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
I want to focus on promoting the Welsh language. We have somdthing to | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
learn from Scandinavian cousins who promoted their own language in | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
programmes like the killing and while under. Should there bd an | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
emphasis of Welsh programmes being exported. The chamber has no idea | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
what he said because he's addressing the honourable lady instead of the | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
chair. I will give another go at it! Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, please | :38:20. | :38:23. | |
forgive me! Does the honour`ble lady agree with me that in Wales we could | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
learn from our Scandinavian cousins who sell programmes like thd Killing | :38:31. | :38:45. | |
and Wallander? A Scandinavi`n style hinterland drama has alreadx been | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
successful. There is also the great significance of the iPlayer and | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
presenting the Welsh medium and foreseeable productions to ` wider | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
audience. Its essential minority languages such as Welsh havd a | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
strong online presence as wd move into the 21st-century furthdr. The | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
committee also felt the BBC should decentralise its commissionhng | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
arrangements so more big decisions are made in Wales. This was also | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
reiterated by the Welsh seldct committee. Another way of t`ckling | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
the lack of distinct wee Welsh content as the BBC director,general | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
has proposed, is creating sdparate service licences for each of the | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
separate nations, saying, "Ht would enable BBC Wales to better | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
prioritise funding to meet hts own priorities and obligations. " They | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
will select committee also said a national licence should be | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
introduced for Wales in orddr to allow for greater accountabhlity and | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
Flex ability for the BBC in Wales. I welcome the review being undertaken | :39:47. | :39:54. | |
by the UK Government into the nature of S4C. The nature of the ftnding | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
has been severe and disproportionate. It is regrettable | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
the review will not be publhshed until next year. I would be | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
extremely interested to hear how the UK Government intends to incorporate | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
the recommendations of the review into S4C into the renewed charter. | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
To close, in the absence of media plurality in Wales, the BBC has a | :40:18. | :40:23. | |
duty to inform our citizens. The final BBC charter must refldct the | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
unique needs of Welsh citizdns and respect its unique promise to | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
reflect, represent and servd the diverse communities of all the UK | :40:33. | :40:33. | |
nations. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker I | :40:34. | :40:45. | |
enjoyed listening to today's debate and I rise this evening to speak in | :40:46. | :40:56. | |
opposition this matter. We have heard honourable members of both | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
sides of this house talk about the BBC being the premier broadcaster of | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
the world. Indeed it is. And from my own personal experience of having | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
lived in the United States, the BBC and its news service was my | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
umbilical cord to the United Kingdom. It is a mess of Fox news | :41:19. | :41:27. | |
and other very subjective ndws broadcasters, the BBC was the only | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
objective is broadcaster giving me the news as it was. -- I was | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
subjected to Fox news. The words of the amendment give the | :41:37. | :41:47. | |
impression to the house that it s about furthering devolution. It s | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
nothing of the sort. It's about a party hell-bent on destroying the | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
sovereign United Kingdom ushng any tool at its means to do that. | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
Tonight's tool is this amendment age. It purports to want to speak | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
for the people of Scotland. All it wants to do, Madam Deputy Speaker, | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
amendment age, is to drive ` wedge between Scotland and the rest of the | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
United Kingdom. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
We heard from the member from East Dunbartonshire who said Scotland was | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
restricted. No, it is the SNP who are prostrated with the poshtion. A | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
recent YouGov poll earlier this year stated clearly that 63% of Scots | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
want the BBC's news output to continue as is, namely with a main | :42:43. | :42:49. | |
UK National evening broadcast followed by a Scottish broadcast | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
such as reporting Scotland. I will give way. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
perhaps the honourable gentleman could explain why the dangerous | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
separatists on his own benches were all in agreement on the ide` of a | :43:05. | :43:10. | |
separate Scottish six? Were they bamboozled by my eloquence? Madam | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Deputy Speaker, the honourable members on this side of the house | :43:16. | :43:20. | |
that maybe have supported the Scottish six, have never fotght the | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
SNP, and I will speak to those honourable members to explahn | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
clearly the SNP's policy on these matters, because they will do | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
anything to bring about the end of the United Kingdom. This is what the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
amendment is all about, it's another example of chip chipping aw`y at a | :43:38. | :43:45. | |
great British institution. We have also heard from members sayhng there | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
is great talent in Scotland. Indeed there is, there is great | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
journalistic talent across the United Kingdom. What we see in the | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
BBC is some Scottish journalists make it onto the UK stage, some | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
great Scottish journalists that are able to promote objective ndws | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
programmes across our kingdom. But let me say very clearly this, I | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
believe that the Scots want to know exactly what's going on across the | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
United Kingdom, and given that England is the larger partndr of the | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
United Kingdom, simply by sheer numbers, it's imperative th`t Scots | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
are able to see the good work that the Conservative government is doing | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
in other parts of the United Kingdom. That may compare and | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
contrast for the avoidance of doubt. Because the SNP can't have ht both | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
ways. We have seen very recdntly since the election last year that | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
they have changed their polhcy, that they will now talk about torpedoing | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
policies brought by the UK Government that affect Engl`nd or | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
England and Wales only. May I give such an example. The SNP edtcation | :44:57. | :45:01. | |
spokeswoman, who I e-mailed earlier today, the honourable member for | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
North West Glasgow, was reported just a few days ago saying hn the | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
Evening Standard that if schools across England set pay scalds lower | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
than the agreed national sc`les that would mean an education budget | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
across the piste would be lower and there are Barnett Formula | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
consequential sparse. By thdir own logic, when they keep talking about | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
poking their noses to England only matters, because of these B`rnett | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
Formula consequentials, it's imperative the people of Scotland | :45:36. | :45:38. | |
can see exactly what's going on in England so we can or rather they can | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
hold their SNP representatives to account. The honourable member seems | :45:44. | :45:52. | |
to be labouring under the apprehension or impression that the | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
Scottish six will no longer include news from the rest of the UK. I can | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
inform the honourable member that isn't correct, it's a total news | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
programme. It is local, nathonal and international news, all within the | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
same programme. His fears c`n be laid to rest. The arrogance of the | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
SNP position knows no... On one hand they say its editorial independence, | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
and now we are told by the SNP bench is exactly what will be contained in | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
the Scottish six. It is a f`rce of tragic proportions, Madam Ddputy | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
Speaker. The truth is that the people of England and the pdople of | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
my constituency ought to know about the SNP's terrible record. @s I said | :46:36. | :46:41. | |
earlier today, perhaps we should be encouraging, not compelling but | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
encouraging more news to cole out of Scotland so that UK citizens, | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
including constituents on all sides of this house can hear exactly about | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
the terrible record of the SNP government. For example, on higher | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
education, the fact there are less disadvantaged students going on to | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
higher education in Scotland than in England. I think my constittents in | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
South Leicestershire would like to know that. Madam Deputy Spe`ker can | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
I remind the honourable gentleman that we have free tuition fdes in | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
Scotland, so the constituency he is talking about will be lumbered off | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
tens of thousands of pounds of debt, and they won't be in Scotland. We | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
are very comfortable with that position. The honourable gentleman | :47:27. | :47:32. | |
might be comfortable, but the higher education institutions in Scotland | :47:33. | :47:34. | |
not comfortable and it's imperative we hear about that across the UK. | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
There are less disadvantaged students going on to higher | :47:40. | :47:42. | |
education in Scotland than hn England, and that's because of the | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
SNP's appalling track record. Let's take the NHS as well. It's really | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
important the BBC broadcasts this in England. SMP targets, targets that | :47:51. | :47:59. | |
are constantly not being met. Early on, the honourable member for East | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
Dunbartonshire talked about BBC Scotland failing to meet targets, I | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
suggest he looks at his own SNP government failing to meet targets. | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
This is important news that should be broadcast across the UK. Madam | :48:13. | :48:19. | |
Deputy Speaker, the truth is that this is yet another attempt by | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
separatist MPs, which is whx virtually every separatist LP from | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
Scotland has signed this amdndment to chip away at a great British | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
institution. I would encour`ge all members of this house who are not | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
members of separatist partids, including those on this sidd of the | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
house who perhaps unwittingly have fallen foul of the SNP's propaganda | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
to pretend that this will somehow further devolution. It will do | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
nothing of the sort. It will simply bring about the hopes and dreams of | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
the separatist party, which is an end to the United Kingdom. Something | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
which on this side of the house given this is the Conservathve and | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
Unionist government, I would hope all honourable members would want to | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
assiduously defend and protdct. I conclude by saying that whilst I | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
fully support the government with its own successful agreement with | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
the BBC, I strongly encourage all members of this house is to | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
thoroughly reject a separathst amendment that does nothing but | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
attempt to destroy the Brithsh Broadcasting Corporation. Ddidre | :49:29. | :49:36. | |
Brock. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It's always a privhlege to | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
follow the member for South Leicestershire, if not just for they | :49:44. | :49:50. | |
comedy value. I found in th`t somewhat meandering discusshon that | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
has passed for the debate on the BBC in the last few months, I'vd become | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
more and more convinced that very few people actually care about the | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
principles involved and it's become another venue for an argument rather | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
than a consideration of the future of public service broadcasthng. At | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
times the government and loxal opposition seem more interested in | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
striking positions to reflect what people are thinking on the Clapham | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
omnibus or in the middle Conservative club. A funding deal | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
was done behind closed doors and the opposition hardly blinked at the | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
time, perhaps they thought ht would be their turn to do the deal one | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
day. I'm delighted they havd finally found their voice on this issue | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
These things should be all out in public and maybe then there wouldn't | :50:35. | :50:37. | |
have been a stramash about how huge the BBC salary has to be before the | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
BBC makes it public. Maybe then the BBC and public could have h`d | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
discussions with Equity abott the data protection obligations of that | :50:48. | :50:55. | |
decision. And also on whethdr a public service broadcasters should | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
be in effect privatising 60$ of its radio output as well, as mentioned | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
by the member for Bishop Auckland. The SNP is in favour of high-quality | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
public broadcasting serving the people. I would hope I would find | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
kindred spirits and attitudds on the benches here. It seems to md that | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
the BBC and government, and the loyal opposition largely occupy the | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
same space in the heart of the establishment, and their self | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
referencing conversations are equally self reinforcing. And | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
therefore damaging to the political discourse that should be informed by | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
the BBC's work. There is a fond suspension of disbelief in the UK | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
that allows the public to ilagine that the BBC is impartial and in | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
service to all of us. It's ` comfortable fiction, but it masks a | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
fatal flaw in the setup of our state broadcaster. I find the BBC's | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
attitude overpoweringly London centric, begging towards sctrrying | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
to the establishment rather than serving the whole of its audience. | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
It reminds me of a fantastic piece by the novelist James Robertson | :52:03. | :52:11. | |
called The News Where You Are. In 306 to five words he scores and | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
underscores the perception lany of us have in Scotland of the way the | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
BBC views us. -- in 365 words. The important news is what we tdll you | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
it is from our studios in London. And when the important news is all | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
over, you can have been news from where you are, which is less | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
important, in which unless we decide it is more important, in whhch case | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
you will hear about it. Mr Robertson does a fantastic reading on you | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
Tube. I'm sure the sentiments will have echoes elsewhere and there will | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
be similar feelings in Cornwall Yorkshire, in Wales. The BBC has to | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
modernise, not its broadcasting platforms or the media it uses or | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
the founding ideals, but thd attitude of those it's supposed to | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
serve outside the M25. A little less patronising would be good, stop | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
thinking you know best and start learning to serve. | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
The parallel complaint can be levelled against BBC Scotland. Stop | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
kowtowing to London as if Broadcasting House holds thd great | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
sages of the modern era. Get out and make decent programmes, including a | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
properly resourced Scottish six and shout out loud if you are bding | :53:26. | :53:32. | |
underfunded. That is all. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I thank the honourable | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
member for giving way. Untroubled by her position that on the ond hand | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
saying the BBC thinks it knows best, yet on the other hand they `re | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
making the exact point the lembers of the SNP bench think best. Surely | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
the BBC is in a better placd to objectively decide where to focus on | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
rather than individual membdrs here who are all very parochial. I thank | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
the honourable member voice, but I suggest we are here as crithcal | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
friends of the BBC and I make those comments in that spirit. Returning | :54:02. | :54:10. | |
to my comments, please, to the BBC Scotland, please shout out loud if | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
you are being underfunded. We know that the entire budget fall of BBC | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
Scotland, radio and TV, is outstripped by the budget for Radio | :54:19. | :54:26. | |
4 alone. As my honourable friend mentioned, BBC Scotland gaining | :54:27. | :54:28. | |
control of the monies raised in Scotland for the licence fed should | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
see an additional ?100 millhon a year invested in Scotland's creative | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
sector supporting 1500 full,time equivalent jobs and boosting the | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
economy. But the more important aspect is that Scottish programming | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
should be Scottish, not onlx reflecting Scotland but also | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
reporting the world through a Scottish vision. I thank thd | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
Honourable Lady for giving way. I did say in my speech earlier that | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
63% of a YouGov poll of Scots said that they were happy with the news | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
output as is. Why is she not listening to the people of Scotland? | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
I thank the honourable membdr for his contribution. That I thhnk was | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
based on the suggestion of ` pilot along the lines of what is currently | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
the Reporting Scotland news programme. Audiences have not seen | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
the pilot is going on at thd moment. The member had another point. I | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
thank the Honourable Lady for giving way. I have sympathy for thd about | :55:30. | :55:34. | |
the BBC being extraordinarily London centric but one of the worst areas | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
of the country is the Midlands where the BBC licence fee per head is ?12 | :55:38. | :55:45. | |
40 versus ?757 in London. I thank the honourable member for the | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
information, I wasn't aware of it. It seems to me the Midlands should | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
be making its views known to London as well. And I look forward to his | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
contribution later in the ddbate. I'm sure it will be mentiondd. The | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
other thing I should mention too and my honourable friend mentioned, | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
central funding has been cut under the last Chancellor, saving the ?1 | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
million was what was needed to turn the deficit around rather than the | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
millions spent on Trident. Ht is time that Albert was placed on the | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
same footing and given a fahr share of the funding and licence fees and | :56:25. | :56:30. | |
it is time to turn over the cash. Raise up your voices BBC Scotland | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
and shout out any inequalitx, the injustice and bad deals, shout it | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
out. That Scottish six has to be an outstanding success, free of London | :56:44. | :56:45. | |
control and the dead hand of Broadcasting House. The BBC must do | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
that and do it well to start restoring its credibility in | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
Scotland. It will only be the beginning. It is good to sed there | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
is movement towards including the devolved administrations in | :56:59. | :57:00. | |
decisions about the future of the BBC but it must go further `nd more | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
of the BBC must be devolved so the good programmes being made can be | :57:06. | :57:10. | |
built upon. Scottish progralming must reflect Scotland back to | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
itself, not just have progr`mmes made in Scotland that could be just | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
as easily made anywhere elsd, no more Waterloo Road farces. Scottish | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
programme makers have shown themselves time and again c`pable of | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
making high-quality content, they don't need London rejects to bulk it | :57:27. | :57:31. | |
up. More than government's changes, BBC Scotland has to clear ott the | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
dead wood from its own backxard away with the tide and safe | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
presenting styles on radio `nd television, away those who `te the | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
centralised styles of the BBC News reporting and away with those | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
executives who have outlived their imaginative years. BBC Scotland | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
should have editorial and fhnancial independence and exercise it | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
ruthlessly. No more lift and shift and no more. Shed the safe hf face | :57:57. | :58:05. | |
and and timidity and start dngaging the people, not in phone ins or vox | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
pops, but actually engages hnterest and intellect and thought and raises | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
those ideals as concepts th`t people can cleave to. This Charter renewal | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
means nothing more than previous renewals and future renewals will | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
mean nothing more than this one so long as there is little imagination | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
and no new thought in the continuous plot of the BBC. It seems wd have | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
come to this point with no forethought from the governlent or | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
broadcaster about what it is they actually want the BBC to do. The cut | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
in Foreign Office Grant affdcted the World Service in the early days of | :58:40. | :58:43. | |
the first Cameron government cutting into the soft diplomacy mission the | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
famous nation speaking peacd, and as licence fee costs for peopld over 75 | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
fall onto the BBC's shoulders we will see more pressure to ctt and | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
cut and cut again. I thank the honourable member for giving way. My | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
concern, at the tendency or risk of the Foreign Office to start | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
classifying some of the mondy spent on the World Service as overseas | :59:10. | :59:11. | |
development assistance, divdrted money away from what it shotld be | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
spent on, which is poverty reduction. I absolutely do `nd I | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
thank the honourable member, my honourable friend, for his | :59:21. | :59:22. | |
contribution. That is an al`rming development. Sure. In the mhdst of | :59:23. | :59:29. | |
this austerity inspired or G of cuts nobody seems to be saying there is a | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
plan for the BBC that doesn't involve using it as a polithcal | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
football. And unfortunately no one of the BBC is really speaking.. | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
Talking of political footballs, the Charter can be renewed as often as | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
is convenient, the management structures of the BBC can bd tinted | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
into powerlessness, the output can be eternally criticised, pr`ised, | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
held up as world leading, condemned as not fit for purpose, mocked, | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
exalted and switched off. Nothing is beyond the imagination of | :00:01. | :00:02. | |
politicians looking for somdthing to say. . Until there is a serhous | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
engagement about what the Corporation should be doing it will | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
continue to drift on a currdnt whose direction was set nearly a century | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
ago in a broadcasting landscape bearing no resemblance to today s | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
landscape. SPEAKER: Order. The honourable gentleman is an dxcitable | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
denizen of the House and is a keen and assiduous parliamentari`n but | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
doesn't enrich his case for intervention by repeating it. And he | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
shouldn't, in a sense, seek to harangue people. A polite inquiry | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
with his insistent air, of course, is legitimate. | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I in fact have one sense -- sentenced to | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
complete. It has been buffeted by winds and blown about a bit since | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
those nearly 100 years but whose hand is on the tiller? Who guides, | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
or seeks to guide, the BBC's long-term direction? | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
SPEAKER: Nigel Huddleston. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm not sure I can | :01:06. | :01:13. | |
compete with that exciting dxchange but it is an honour to follow my | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
honourable friend for Edinbtrgh North and Leith. I'd like to start | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
by congratulating the dozens, bodies and institutions, and the 180,0 0 | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
plus members of the British public who participated in the consultation | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
that has led to what I belidve is a very successful outcome in terms of | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
the draft Charter. The scald of involvement clearly shows how close | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
the BBC is to the heart of lany people in the United Kingdol. I d | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
also like to give credit whdre it is due to the former Secretary of | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
State, the Right Honourable member for Maldon for all of the work he | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
and his team did in drafting the Charter and the current teal for | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
pursuing it and making sure it comes to this successful point. It is true | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
the BBC itself supports the vast majority of the Charter. And is now | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
quibbling over some relativdly small points, including the revel`tion of | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
on-screen talent page, which I shall come to in a moment. But thd thing I | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
consider most important changing in the Charter is around governance and | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
independence. The BBC Trust was clearly not fit for purpose and the | :02:14. | :02:15. | |
new unitary board will be a far more effectivd | :02:16. | :02:39. | |
oversight body alongside Ofcom. The BBC will itself appoint the majority | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
of members to its board, for the first time in its history, `nd the | :02:43. | :02:44. | |
government therefore will not be able to out vote the BBC, this is a | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
fundamental point. The Culttre, Media and Sport Select Commhttee | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
which I have the honour of being a member of, will have a role in the | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
appointment of the chair of the unitary board and there will be | :02:53. | :02:54. | |
consultation with the nation's government on the membership of the | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
other public appointments. @nd of course there will be a thorough | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
public appointments process. The idea, therefore, that there is some | :02:59. | :03:01. | |
kind of government stooges hn these roles is completely false, | :03:02. | :03:03. | |
fabricated and doesn't stack up with the facts. Ofcom will play ` | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
significantly enhanced role, and I am currently on the Digital economy | :03:06. | :03:07. | |
Bill committee and I was re`ssured earlier last week that one of the | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
representatives from Ofcom came along and gave reassurances that | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
they have the skills and experience to take on the additional role and | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
where they need to hire thex are in the process of hiring so I'l | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
confident Ofcom will be abld to fulfil its role with great skill. I | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
also applaud the expanded role of the National Audit Office, which | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
despite comments to the contrary at has skills and experience in | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
developing commercial contr`cts and is capable of monitoring thd | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
operations of BBC Worldwide. With regard to talent salaries, this is | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
obviously a point which has received quite a lot of attention. I don t | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
think many of my constituents are losing sleep over this issud, | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
however, the proposals are that the BBC will reveal talent salaries | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
above ?150,000 above the level of pay of the Prime Minister force of | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
this threshold for revealing salaries is standard practice across | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
the rest of the public sector, and indeed already in the BBC itself. | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
The BBC management salaries are already revealed above 150,000, and | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
of course management is also talent, they are not on-air talent. It seems | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
logical to extend the process, therefore, to on-air talent. The | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
argument the BBC would be d`maged if salaries were revealed doesn't hold | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
water and if that was the c`se it would already lose talent in a | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
rigorous way in the managemdnt side of things. And as the honourable | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
member for East Dumbarton Shah has commented on many occasions, this is | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
a rather gossipy industry. Lost people in the industry | :04:36. | :04:49. | |
already and so on and who gdts paid what, about the only people who | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
don't know what the top taldnt get paid are those paying for it, the | :04:54. | :04:55. | |
licence fee payers. It's about time we corrected that. If the t`lent | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
really are worth as much as they are getting paid, they should h`ve | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
nothing to hide or fear. We only need to look at what our top pop | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
stars and film stars, and otr top sporting stars are getting paid to | :05:05. | :05:06. | |
see the British public are puite tolerant of what many would consider | :05:07. | :05:08. | |
exorbitant salaries, as long as they give pleasure to millions and are | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
talented and indeed are then perceived as worth it. The BBC need | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
not worry about revealing t`lent salaries as long as they ard seen to | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
be in keeping with market r`tes and the talent is being paid to the | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
British public in a way thex see is worth it. Claudia Winkleman has | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
already declared she considdrs herself working for the public and | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
doesn't mind the fact that her salary will be revealed. I `lso hope | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
that when salaries are reve`led by the BBC that there is not a gender | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
pay gap revealed at the samd time. One element that I hope will help | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
with this is that the very revelation of salaries may dqual out | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
some rather a necessary, abhorrent pay scales at the moment. I'd like | :05:48. | :05:54. | |
to conclude by mentioning the Scottish issue to the upset of my | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
honourable member for South Leicestershire Foxes being on the | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
committee and having multiple conversations I'm Cesc. Mac | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
sympathetic to the AEGON it's for a Scottish six, in the same w`y that | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
if I was watching the news hn England and saw that through items, | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
Scottish health story, Scottish education story, or Scottish legal | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
story, I might be bored and turn off as well, not that I'm disinterested | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
in it but it's not the thing I would want to see on the top of mx news | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
item. Their -- therefore whhle and sympathetic with the idea of a | :06:26. | :06:28. | |
Scottish six, the reason I disagree with my friends on the opposite | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
bench is you are asking for the government to interfere on this and | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
this is a dangerous area. There are areas where the BBC does itself have | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
to make editorial and operational decisions and I believe this is one | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
of them. It is up to us to put pressure on the BBC had madd | :06:43. | :06:44. | |
arguments and monitor their behaviour in this area and other | :06:45. | :06:46. | |
areas of spend, such as spending on regions, Midlands versus London but | :06:47. | :07:03. | |
I don't believe it is right for Parliament to get into that level of | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
detail and force those decisions, though I'm keen to monitor this and | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
push for it and argue the c`se for a Scottish six along with my friends | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
on the SNP benches. SPEAKER:. Kwasi Kwarteng. I'm grateful to bd called | :07:13. | :07:14. | |
in this debate. Interesting debate, we had a wide range of speeches | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
Praising the BBC. I come here also to add my pennyworth of prahse. I | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
think the BBC is an excellent institution. I have also bedn in the | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
privileged position of presdnting a programme on the BBC and I have to | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
say that I have rarely met ` bunch of more professional, more | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
accommodating, friendly people than those who worked on the programme | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
that I had the honour of prdsenting. I also want to echo the point of my | :07:37. | :07:54. | |
right honourable friend madd with respect to the future of thd BBC and | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
technology. It's obvious to most people in this country that we are | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
going to live through a vast range of change, a fast accelerathon of | :08:05. | :08:14. | |
the ability of technology to provide programmes, the way in which people | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
access programmes is going to change. The only thing I wotld say | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
about the charter in relation to this is that it is actually quite a | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
long period. Other members of the house have made the point that they | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
feel the health check after five and a half years is something which is | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
in some way deleterious to the functioning of the BBC, is some way | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
a plot to try to change the nature of the BBC. But surely if the | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
charter is 11 years, it makds absolute sense to have some form of | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
break, if you like, a break clause or health check after five `nd a | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
half years, because none of us here have any idea where we will be in | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
terms of technology and in how we access material on the scredn in | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
five and a half years' time. On that point I want to mention the fact | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
that my right honourable frhend the member for Molden mentioned the fact | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
that the licence fee would be looked at. I happen to think the lhcence | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
fee is little more than a poll tax. I think it's fairly controvdrsial in | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
this day and age to expect that David Beckham pays exactly the same | :09:30. | :09:37. | |
amount as somebody in more reduced circumstances, just for the | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
privilege of accessing the BBC. I think it's something which hs a | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
matter for legitimate debatd. I m interested to see the chartdr will | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
extend the licence fee, but I think at the end of this period, the | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
licence fee will be something that may well be looked at and m`y well | :09:55. | :10:00. | |
be reformed. I think subscrhption services are clearly a more | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
attractive way, in some instances, in moving forward on this. The other | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
issue I want to raise very briefly, is the issue of diversity in the | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
BBC. I think we have debated this on the floor of the house recently I | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
think the honourable member for Tottenham has spoken very eloquently | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
about this. It seems to me that pious words are very easy, very | :10:24. | :10:31. | |
cheap. It's very difficult to see, or to measure, because I no progress | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
has been made, but it's verx difficult to see how we measure that | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
progress. Other speakers have mentioned the fact that thex think | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
the BBC's feet should be held to the fire on diversity. I'm not just | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
talking about ethnic or gender diversity, I think we have to look | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
at regional diversity, speakers have mentioned that. I think we've got to | :10:53. | :10:58. | |
look at the balance between able-bodied, and disabled pdople | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
being represented on screen. There is a long way to go on this issue, | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
and I feel the BBC itself is perhaps not the best measure, not the best | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
judge of how it's performing on these issues. The right Honourable | :11:14. | :11:19. | |
member for Tottenham mentioned that there have been something lhke 0 | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
initiatives in the lass 's 07 years on the issue of diversity, `nd yet | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
nobody seems to suggest that there has been any enquiry on what has | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
actually been achieved on this. There is just a general ide`, a | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
general notion that we have improved. I don't dispute that, I | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
don't dispute the fact improvements have been made, but there doesn t | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
seem to be a measure, or a way we can measure that improvement. I | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
think that's something government ministers and the BBC itself and | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
others should look at. The last thing, the last subject I w`nt to | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
touch on in this debate bridfly is this issue of value for mondy. It | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
seems to me that you have an organisation that has ?3.7 billion a | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
year. That's a lot of money, it s a big organisation, and it's perfectly | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
legitimate for members of this side of the house, and on the other side | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
of the house, to look at thhs expenditure and to question quite | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
rigorously whether in fact the public is getting value for money. | :12:27. | :12:34. | |
And when I hear, and I have to say this, when I hear Scottish | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
Nationalist MPs complaining, and I quote, about the audio cuts, -- the | :12:39. | :12:51. | |
orgy offcuts, I get quite irritated. Over the last six years, thd BBC has | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
been something of a pampered child, I think so, and many others do. It | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
has been completely exempt hn many ways from some of the very difficult | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
choices we have made. I'm h`ppy to give away. Would he agree whth me | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
that this, the language being used is just another example of | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
separatists wanting to put ` wedge between the Scots and English, in | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
this case the London media? I appreciate my honourable frhend s | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
concern about the separatist language was up I don't see it in | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
those terms particularly. Btt I have heard this many times, a kind of | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
Father Christmas approach to public spending, which I have alwaxs put | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
argued against in this housd. I don't think it's a mature approach | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
to the difficult choices we have to make. I don't think complaining | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
about an orgy of cuts is a particularly accurate or helpful way | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
of talking about the BBC. It is necessary to look rigorouslx at | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
public expenditure, and to look at an organisation which enjoys lavish | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
expenditure and lavish sums from the tax payer. It's quite legithmate for | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
us as members of Parliament to look in a rigorous way at the expenditure | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
and expect some degree of s`vings. I've always argued in my six years | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
in this house against what H call what I call the Father Christmas | :14:23. | :14:30. | |
approach to public expendittre, keeping spending, protesting about | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
orgy of cuts, or austerity, which is not happening to the BBC in this | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
instance. The government, ghven where we were in the last | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
parliament, has been rather generous in its treatment of the BBC. As well | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
they might, it's a weld cherished and well respected national | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
organisation. And there is nothing in this charter that suggests to me | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
that the approach of the government going forward will be any more | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
rigorous or challenging in terms of the expenditure on the BBC than was | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
the case in the last Parlialent I think the BBC is well protected I | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
think the charter is to be commended for some of the reforms, thd role of | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
the National Audit Office, the role of Ofcom, these are improvelents in | :15:14. | :15:22. | |
the governance of the BBC. Ly right honourable friend, the membdr for | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
Wantage expressed this, the charter has most of these things right. It's | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
actually a successful piece of legislation, or potential | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
legislation. And I'm absolutely very happy to lend my support to the | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
charter and to support the government in its approach to the | :15:42. | :15:50. | |
BBC. Hugh Merriman. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's an absolute pleasure | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
to follow my friend, the melber for Spelthorne. He is rarely off the TV | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
himself, a fine contributed to the BBC. When I turn on their sdems to | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
be him making contributions, and I hope notwithstanding some of the | :16:05. | :16:07. | |
criticism that his chair on Newsnight will not be replaced by | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
the one used by Graham Norton when he rejects the unfortunate lember of | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
the audience. Mr Speaker, pdrhaps I can declare an interest bec`use I am | :16:17. | :16:27. | |
chair of the APPG for the BBC. I welcome the new BBC charter and the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
compromises made by both government and the BBC in order for it to be | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
delivered. I particularly wdlcome the term of the charter, an 11 year | :16:37. | :16:43. | |
period. This should provide, provided a fixed Parliament | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
survives, take the subject `t the next election cycle. I'm always | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
bemused by the fact the BBC gets accused of bias during thosd times. | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
To me demonstrates to that the BBC must perform in a balanced leasure | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
because the pressures come from both sides, and the calmer waters of the | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
midterm will be a better pohnt for the next charter renewal. If the | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
calling out of bias by politicians is something I find somewhat | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
tiresome, then it's followed in my list of moans by demands for the BBC | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
to find its own voice, provhded of course the lyrics and music are | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
written by interested honourable members in this house. I wotld | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
perhaps ask the SNP to take note with that regard. Mr Speaker, I m | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
pleased the licence fee not only lasts for 11 years but is gtaranteed | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
for the next 11 years, and ht will rise inflation each year, and the | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
government has legislated to close the iPlayer loophole and ph`se out | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
the ring fencing of ?150 million per year for broadband roll-out. The BBC | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
took a big hit when it determined it would be responsible for frde TV | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
licences for the over 75s. The BBC has much loved and cherished in the | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
nation but its reputation is only as good as the output it can ddliver. | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
The licence fee and the BBC's commercial enterprises gives the BBC | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
25% of the UK's TV revenues, but the BBC makes 45% of the investlent into | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
British programming. I hope the government's additional funding | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
commitments can help the BBC deliver more excellence to its viewdrs and | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
listeners. I have three particular issues which I hope the govdrnment | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
will focus its efforts upon publication of the charter. The | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
first is with regard listed sporting events. By closing the iPlaxer | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
loophole which previously allowed a viewer to watch content on ` device | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
without the need to buy a TV licence, the government has | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
demonstrated that existing legislation has to change in order | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
to capture the original intdntion in a fast-moving digital age. Can I ask | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
the government to consider hf it needs to make the same change to | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
preserve the status of listdd sporting events. Currently the BBC | :19:06. | :19:08. | |
interprets a listed sporting event to be available only to a | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
broadcaster that will air free to charge and be delivered by ` TV set | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
to 95% of the population. Whth more consumers opting to watch programmes | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
through tablets and other ddvices, this figure will soon mean no | :19:24. | :19:26. | |
terrestrial broadcaster can reach it. I believe the intention is | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
merely that the output should be free and the nation can accdss it. | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
As I understand the governmdnt has no plans to change the sporting | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
listed status regime, I've hnvited the Secretary of State to mdet with | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
me to discuss how the legislation can be updated to meet technology of | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
our age. I was incredibly grateful during this debate to catch a few | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
words with the secretary of state and I believe the Secretary of | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
State's view from looking at this department is that the rules don't | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
restrict the BBC in the manner that the BBC think they do. But dqually | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
the Department's view is th`t if the drafting does restrict, then the | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
department is open to looking at a change and I'm very grateful for the | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
ministerial team for being so open and I'm sure the BBC will bd as | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
well. My second point is to the role of the National Audit Officd. | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
Paragraph 55 of the charter provides for the controller and auditor | :20:26. | :20:27. | |
general of the National Audht Office to scrutinise the BBC. I welcome | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
that but I have two areas where I feel it has to be further | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
considered. They are minor `reas. The first relates to which `spects | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
of the BBC can be examined by the National Audit Office. Paragraph | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
55.1 references it is the BBC that is to be examined, but paragraph | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
55.2 says the BBC's subsidi`ries must engage with the Nation`l Audit | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
Office to this end. Does it meet the National Audit Office will be | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
examining the BBC's commerchal activities question I assumd it | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
will. The National Audit Office should scrutinise whether ptblic | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
bodies use public money offhcially. Under the charter they cannot use | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
licence fee revenue. It seels unusual for the NA ode to extend its | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
remit and they would be grateful for an explanation as to why dods that. | :21:19. | :21:22. | |
The second point for the National Audit Office relates to the | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
editorial and any creative judgment. The charter dictates that the NAO | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
Khan straight into this are` but it's also up to the APPG to decide | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
whether it's in the confines of that to determine. | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
I agree with the honourable member for West Bromwich East. There is no | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
dispute mechanism involved should the BBC wish to contest the | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
determination made by the N@O. I again ask the government to look and | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
rectify this should disagredments occur between the two bodies. | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
The third area I wanted the government to focus on is in respect | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
to distinctive output, it is written into the charter, requiring of | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
common to hold the BBC to account on its delivery of distinctiveness My | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
concern is that there appears to be utilisation of quotas the ottset. | :22:23. | :22:28. | |
Quotas and prescriptions ard the enemies of innovation and the BBC | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
must be free to experiment `nd take risks, meet the challenges that are | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
free to air private sectors cannot afford to make. Could I ask that of | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
con be given the destruction to determine if quotas are the best way | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
to deliver distinctive outptt? In my opinion, a broadcaster that bravely | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
decides to put on ballroom dancing and a baking competition on | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
prime-time TV is doing pretty well in this space already. I do not | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
believe that the Government should have concerns as to the of the BBC. | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
During this debate about thd charter renewal, those supporting the BBC | :23:08. | :23:09. | |
wanted to ensure that the lhcence fee would be preserved and rise by | :23:10. | :23:17. | |
inflation, that the next renewal should be taken out of the dlectoral | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
cycle, and that government appointments to the new board would | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
not outweigh BBC appointments. The Government, in my view, havd | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
listened to these concerns, in addition to many others and has | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
again in my opinion, given the BBC even more independence and support | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
than that which existed previously. I am ultimately grateful to the | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
Government for continuing to support this amazing and unique institution, | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
the envy of the world. It is certainly true that if we wdre | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
inventing the BBC for the fhrst time in 2016, it would not be organised | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
or funded as it is now. At ` cost of only 40p per day, thank goodness we | :23:56. | :23:57. | |
have it and long may it rem`in. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a great | :23:58. | :24:07. | |
privilege to close this deb`te this afternoon. Most of the Honotrable | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
friends and members have acknowledged today that the BBC is a | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
great British achievement. Ht is truly a national treasure, ` hugely | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
precious communal possession. We all own the BBC. It is so natur`l that | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
many of us have strong views when it comes to changing it. As an | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
organisation with such reach and power, it is entirely right that the | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
new royal charter is the catse of intense debate. I welcome the | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
interesting and important point made on all sides. It has been | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
particularly heartening to see such agreement across both sides of the | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
house on the need for the BBC to improve its diversity commitments. | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
The former Secretary of State, the right honourable member for Malvern, | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
the former minister the Minhster for Wantage, the SNP, the member for | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
Maidstone and the wheeled, `nd the Honourable member for Tottenham all | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
spoke passionately about thd need for the BBC to do better. The | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
Honourable Lady for Maidstone made the important point about the fact | :25:06. | :25:17. | |
there is no Ofcom information sheet on diversity. She looks forward to | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
tougher action from the new Ofcom chief executive, Sharon White, and a | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
stronger challenge to the BBC, particularly on the publication of | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
data. The Honourable gentlelan, the member for Folkestone, I wotld not | :25:30. | :25:35. | |
want to be accused of impartiality between the reporting of thd two | :25:36. | :25:41. | |
members in competition for the chair of the select committee, eqtally | :25:42. | :25:50. | |
championed transparency. However, as the Honourable member for Tottenham | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
put it, who is not yet back in his place, the BBC has never published | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
and evaluation of the diversity policy, despite over 30 initiatives. | :25:59. | :26:04. | |
My honourable friend is an hnsidious campaign and will not let the front | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
bench take the foot of the pedal when it comes to progress on | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
diversity in the BBC. Criticism has come from several members of our | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
substantial experience in the policy area. We are sorry to see the | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
Honourable member for Wantage off the benches, but pleased to see he | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
has been liberated on the backbenches and support his comments | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
that the contestable funding is too small and risks creating an | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
additional bureaucracy. We believe the money should go back to the BBC | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
with a condition for diversd content such as children's broadcasting | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
There was a passionate defence of the BBC and we were incredibly | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
grateful to her work, her threless work on scrutinising the Government | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
over the previous year on rdforms to the BBC charter. She sought | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
reassurance from the Governlent on three key areas, the specifhc | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
definition of distinctiveness Ofcom, what additional resource will be | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
divided to Ofcom in the new role, and what changes will be many | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
charter review be empowered to make? Similarly, the Honourable mdmber for | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
Bishop Auckland, another former Shadow minister, raised concerns | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
around the potential for interference with editorial content | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
and decision making and concerns about opening the BBC up tupue | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
anti-competition challenges. We look forward the Minister's commdnts in | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
those regards. I enjoy the speech from the Honourable member for South | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
Leicestershire, little more than SNP baiting across the chamber. I would | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
have liked to have got betwden the two, I would not fancy my chances. | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
The Honourable member for Rochester and shrewd made the point about it | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
being our greatest export. The Honourable member for Mid | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
Worcestershire gave an excellent speech, appreciated on both sides of | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
the house, making the important point that the select committee will | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
have a role in overseeing the appointment of the new board, a | :28:06. | :28:08. | |
welcome improvement on the appointment of the chair of the | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
trust, which has provoked criticism all round. The Honourable mdmber for | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
Spelthorne made the case evdn further to hold the BBC's free to | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
the fire on diversity and not simply rely on a vague impression we have | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
improved. The Honourable melber for Bexhill and Battle listed sporting | :28:24. | :28:31. | |
events and the 95% thresholds. We will consider this in the Bhll | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
committee for the Digital Economy Bill. I hope the government minister | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
has been listening and he whll seek to amend it himself. If not, we have | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
an amendment that is ready to go. I welcome the opportunity to `dd my | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
own contribution to those of my honourable friends. The charter | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
renewal process is a chance to strengthen and adapt the BBC's | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
position as it heads into e`ch new decade, so it remains a crucial part | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
of our national conversation. As my honourable friend for West Bromwich | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
East has said, we on these benches broadly approved the new version. We | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
have our concerns about the role of the NAO and the distinctiveness | :29:14. | :29:15. | |
requirement, the interpretation of that pie of com. On the whole, this | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
charter is a welcome confirlation of the BBC's scope and the principle of | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
universality. Confirmation that the BBC should continue doing what does | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
providing something for everyone, Gardeners World, Doctor Who, The One | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
Show, From Women's Hour To Charlie And Lola. It is a welcome addition | :29:37. | :29:46. | |
that can safeguard its independence, and a welcome redoubling of the BBC | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
diversity obligations. The BBC must go into its second century with a | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
much better representation, on-screen and off, of race, sex age | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
and ability. It is only right that all licence fee payers should see | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
themselves in the programmes they are paying for. The commitmdnt to | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
diversity must get even bro`der They must learn to seek out talent | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
across all social classes. There is a stereotype of the sort of person | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
that makes the telly, the white posh kid with a good education and the | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
right contracts. The BBC nedds to blast that stereotype apart. It | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
needs to make it as old-fashioned baked concept as continuity | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
announcers were in dinner j`ckets. I look forward to seeing that happen | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
and working constructively with the Government on how we monitor and | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
enforce genuine diversity in all forms across the BBC. I also join | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
members in applauding the elphasis placed on the charter on our | :30:43. | :30:44. | |
quarterly reporting and betraying the lives of all people in `ll | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
regions of the UK. -- portr`ying. We all pay for the BBC, so it hs only | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
right that the BBC should rdpay that investment by commissioning and | :30:56. | :30:57. | |
making programmes in and for all other nations of this country. In | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
truth, there is much to approve of in this new charter. The positives | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
almost make up for the underhand, aggressive, bully boy way this | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
Government negotiated the l`st licence fee settlement. The BBC | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
should never have been given the responsibility to fund a Tory party | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
manifesto pledge, nor should it be given responsibility for delivering | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
the Government's social polhcy on free TV licences for the ovdr 7 's. | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
It should have felt able to reject even the suggestion that a free TV | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
licence should have been taken on as a cost for the over 75s. It agreed, | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
in essence, to become an arl of the DP, -- DWP, saying a lot about the | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
overbearing way that the Government treated an organisation it should | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
cherish. It is like outsourcing children's services to Virghn and | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
asking Richard Branson to ddcide who gets it. The Labour Party whll not | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
support government cowardicd in outsourcing welfare policy to an | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
unaccountable organisation. If the Conservatives wanted to cut TV | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
licences for over 75s, they should have the guts to put it in their | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
manifesto and should have c`mpaigned on it. But did not. While wd support | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
the charter, we will be rettrning in committee stage of the Digital | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
Economy Bill, to this point. This government Marco has not ruled out | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
further steps of this naturd. It refused to establish a transparent | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
process to set the license fees of the future. Without such a | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
reassurance, this is somethhng we do not consider as a done deal. We | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
should be considering this hssue again as the Digital Economx Bill | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
goes through committee. On these benches, we are committed to the | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
cause of a strong, independdnt, well funded national broadcaster. It is | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
nothing less than the British public deserve and we shall not let this | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
Government hollow out an institution the British people prize so highly | :33:01. | :33:11. | |
purely for petty political gain It is a pleasure to respond on behalf | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
of the Government to this long and high quality debate on the future of | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
the BBC, one which I think has been a very fitting conclusion to the | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
process of charter review, during which we have had sometimes some | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
hotly contested debates, sole discussions that have broad | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
cross-party approval, and ddbated some of the crucial issues `round | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
what I think everybody agreds is one of the most loved public | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
institutions in this countrx. It is good to be able to think about so | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
many of those issues today, almost all of the key issues debatdd over | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
the past year have once agahn been discussed in this debate. I think we | :33:56. | :34:04. | |
have come to a positive outcome That seems to have been the | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
overwhelming sentiment in the debates in this house, any other | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
place and in the three devolved assemblies which, over the past few | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
weeks, have all debated this settlement. Crucially, the BBC | :34:17. | :34:26. | |
broadly agrees with the approach that we are taking. I am hugely | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
heartened by this because I think that there broad consensus of | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
support, behind how the BBC will go forward over the next 11 ye`rs, is | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
an asset to the nation. It shows we have done the right thing bx the BBC | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
for the UK's unique creativd sector and for the audiences who wd serve | :34:45. | :34:52. | |
all around the United Kingdom. I want to start by paying tribute to | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
those who have done most of the work. I am proud to have pl`yed a | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
small part. But the real he`vy lifting was done by the right | :35:00. | :35:11. | |
honourable member for Molden, and Wantage. They are in their places, | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
rightly blushing, as they should have done all the way through this. | :35:15. | :35:19. | |
It was very entertaining to see their private disagreements being | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
aired in public. The fact wd have such capable, wise and thoughtful | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
former ministers on the backbenches, contributing in this way, is a great | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
asset. The honourable member for Folkestone said that everybody loves | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
the BBC. I am sure the membdr for North West Leicestershire whll put | :35:41. | :35:48. | |
him right shortly. I would like to thank all members who contrhbuted, | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
fed into the charter review, and all 192,000 members of the publhc and | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
organisations that have been involved. I want to start on the | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
detailed issues. I will go through as many as I can come on thd | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
question of diversity here, we drew on a strong well of cross-p`rty | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
support, from right across the house, in all of the differdnt | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
parties that spoke. It is critical that the BBC reflect the nation that | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
it serves. It has acknowledged and knows that it needs to do more, but | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
more it must do. I am sure that it will. But we will undoubtedly be | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
holding its feet to the fird. Ofcom will be ensuring that the | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
commitments in the charter `re held to. In the first instance, of | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
course, it is for the BBC board to set policies and monitor and fulfil | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
these. But Ofcom will assess the performance periodically. Sharon | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
White, chief executive of Ofcom has already remarked on the BBC | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
diversity record and says it needs to do better. Clearly, progress is | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
to be made. The member for Coventry South, my Honourable friend the | :36:59. | :37:05. | |
member for Maidstone, the mdmber for Tottenham, they all made important | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
speeches on the importance of diversity. On some specific points, | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
and information sheet on diversity policy be produced pronto. On screen | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
and off screen matters. It latters not only who is reflecting the | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
country on our TV screens, but also who is making the decisions and who | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
is working at all levels of the organisation. I think that hs true | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
across most organisations. Hn fact, the point was put most strongly when | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
the case was made this is not only a social imperative, it is an economic | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
imperative because you need to draw on all of the of our nation. | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
Several members raise the ilportance of radio, the invisible Wantage | :37:49. | :38:04. | |
Wrexham and seven. Support for BBC radio delivery diverse outptt is | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
important and I'm sure the BBC has had a message loud and clear. I want | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
to address the message of distinctiveness. Having | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
distinctiveness in the BBC Charter was an important part of thd renewal | :38:15. | :38:22. | |
process. My right honourabld friend, the member for Malvern talkdd about | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
it eloquently. As set out bx that member, it's exactly how we see | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
distinctiveness in government. The draft agreement makes clear that the | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
BBC's services and out of the need to be taken as a whole in tdrms of | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
distinctiveness, which is a question that was raised. And, has the | :38:44. | :38:54. | |
experience and guidance -- `nd Ofcom has the experience and guid`nce to | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
deal with that appropriatelx. This must not become a tick box dxercise. | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
It take into account the whole of BBC output. Again, these will be | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
high-level requirements. Ofcom can then develop an evidence -b`sed | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
approach to think about the distinctiveness of the BBC. Turning | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
to governance, this was a point of contention in some areas. Mx | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
honourable friend, the membdr for Rochester and Strood talked | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
powerfully about the need for strong governments to support what is an | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
excellent BBC. There is verx strong support for the unitary board, and | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
the external regulation by Ofcom. We have been working closely whth the | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
BBC to set out the processes by which the new BBC board will be | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
established. There are some who said that the processes undermind the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
independence of the BBC. Thdy couldn't be more wrong. The new | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
processes for the appointment of the BBC board are unprecedented in terms | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
of the amount of appointments that fall to the BBC themselves. Of | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
course, government appointmdnts following the proper processes, | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
often themselves are for independent positions and once appointed, all | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
appointees will be independdnt board members of the BBC. And thex will be | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
responsible for the BBC in hts entirety. Keyboard, as was pointed | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
out very clearly, will not have editorial control. It will be | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
nonexecutive. I thought the Honourable member for Mid | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
Worcestershire put the argulent very well when he explained this quite | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
and also set out Ofcom's role to oversee. I will now turn to the deal | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
for the over 75 is, which I'm told will be returned to in the Dutch at | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
all economy Bill. The member for Rhondda on the bench opposite set | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
out consents for this. The concession for free TV licences is | :41:10. | :41:19. | |
important. It classed as attacks and the government retains over`ll | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
control, a system we have rdlied on for decades. The track record is | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
unbroken by last summer's ddal. Far from some of the terms used in this | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
debate, I will leave this house with this comment by the BBC's | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
director-general who said, the government's decision to put the | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
cost of the over 75s on us has been more than matched by the de`l coming | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
back for the BBC. That's thd reality of the settlement that was `greed. | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
And I think it's why it was reasonable for everyone to support | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
it. The deal was reached in negotiation with the BBC and there | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
were concessions in return, such as closing the iPlayer loophold and | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
ensuring all those who watch BBC content will be paying for ht in the | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
future. The closure of the hPlayer loophole is one of the very | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
important long-term considerations that will support the BBC | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
sustainably into the very dhstant future. As part of that deal, we | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
said we would transfer part of the policy for the over 75s concessions | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
into the BBC. Some people wdre concerned about this but thd BBC | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
themselves requested this change. The BBC has a long history of | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
dealing delicately with matters on the licence fee. And while ht | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
remains the most supported lethod of funding the BBC, its not unhversally | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
popular, but I am assured the BBC will be able to handle this | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
appropriately. Mr Speaker, we also had a series of discussions about | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
the contestable fund. This was one of the moments of extraordinary | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
distance between the right honourable members for Malton and | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
Wantage. They are sitting ndxt to each other right now, but the gap | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
was apparent in their speeches earlier. The licence fee, mx view is | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
the licence fee is a fee pahd by the general public to watch or record | :43:23. | :43:28. | |
television programmes. It's not necessarily just a payment for BBC | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
services. That was true in the last Parliament and the last settlement | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
when we used some of that money for broadband, which was very exciting. | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
I think it's reasonable that a small proportion of the licence fde can be | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
made available to organisathons other than the BBC to help deliver | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
publicly funded content. My right honourable friend understandably | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
draws attention to the apparently contested view of the contested fund | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
of my two right honourable friends. But viewers who like BBC Ond and BBC | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
Two and six extra are in fact, the mentally. Yes, there is a slight | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
difference between them... LAUGHTER But they reinforce the over`ll | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
thrust and wisdom which togdther were introduced and supportdd across | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
the house. I would love to say I agree with my right honourable | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
friend but he obviously missed the exchanges because there really was | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
quite a lot of distance between them. In fact, my right honourable | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
friend for Wantage repudiatdd the position he had supported when he | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
was bound by collective responsibility. But the trohka over | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
there will no doubt be able to discuss that at length as wd debate | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
what the contestable fund should be used on, and given that this is a | :44:43. | :44:50. | |
pilot, we are going to look at and work on how the contestable fund | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
should operate. At the end of the pilot, we will then assess the | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
impact of the scheme. Questhons were raised over the permanence of the | :45:01. | :45:09. | |
funding. ?60 million of funding over the two years and then we c`n | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
contest the contestable fund. - ?16 million. Most were supportive of the | :45:14. | :45:20. | |
mid-term review. And it's entirely reasonable we look at how, discharge | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
their duties. It will not look at the mission of the BBC comedy public | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
purposes of the BBC, the licence fee funding model over the period of the | :45:30. | :45:37. | |
charter. But there were a couple of dissident voices. The member for | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
Halo was great but take the political cycle. Support thd | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
separate processes for fundhng review in huge, but concerndd about | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
mission creep in the mid-term review. I want to reassure her it's | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
not envisage as another charter review, but it is right that we have | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
a look at how things are working halfway through the next 11 years. | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
Several members mentioned or discussed the importance of the | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
National Audit Office. I can confirm it will assess value for money. It | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
will cover publicly funded `reas and subsidiaries. I think the s`me rules | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
that the controller and audhtor general uses for what's in scope | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
will apply, and I don't see why it should be any different tow`rds | :46:28. | :46:35. | |
that. I understand the concdrn of the member of excellent battle. We | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
have looked at this and we disagree, we don't think the BBC's concerns | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
are valid but we will keep ht under review. There was a big discussion | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
about salary transparency. H strongly believe in transparency of | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
salaries for publicly funded posts. As the Secretary of State sdt out, | :46:54. | :46:59. | |
BBC studios are commercial, by the charter they must be commercial | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
therefore it's reasonable for them not to be covered, but the BBC | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
itself is public and its public money, so in the same way as other | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
parts of the public sector, transparency is reasonable. Coming | :47:10. | :47:17. | |
to the point on the devolved legislatures, which is subjdct to | :47:18. | :47:24. | |
the amendment by the SNP, specifically broadcasting is a | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
reserved matter. That's bec`use broadcasting is a national hssue, | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
and the BBC is the nation's broadcaster. There is of cotrse the | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
need for the BBC to better reflect the diversity of the whole of the | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
UK, and that's something we have worked hard to ensure is in the | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
charter and agreement. I wotld also like to remind the house th`t the | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
new charter includes the implementation of recommend`tions | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
from the Smith commission, which did not recommend that broadcasting all | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
the affairs of the BBC should be devolved, as my right honourable | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
friend for South Leicestershire set out powerfully. On the spechfic | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
question in the amendment of the Scottish six o'clock news that has | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
drawn so much speculation, ht's vital that the BBC is editorially | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
independent so that politichans cannot interfere with editorial | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
matters. A vote for the amendment tonight is a vote for polithcal | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
change role of the BBC. The SNP might want political control of the | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
BBC, but we say no. And what's more, the BBC, as the nation's | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
broadcaster, as the charter says, should bring people together the | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
shared experiences and help contribute to the social cohesion of | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
the well-being of the United Kingdom. So I hope the housd will | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
resist the amendment and support the charter and all the work th`t has | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
gone into it over the past xear and wish with that, the BBC a strong, | :48:49. | :48:58. | |
vital and healthy future. C`n I call the right Honourable member for East | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
Dumbartonshire to move the loment formally. I wish to move it in my | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
name and in the name of my right honourable friends. | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
The question is that the amdndment be made. As many as are of the | :49:16. | :51:23. | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". It is for the ayes, M`rian | :51:24. | :51:39. | |
Fellows and Thompson. For the noes, bridal dress. -- bride and | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
Griffiths. The question is that the mahn | :51:44. | :02:55. | |
motion, as on the order papdr, as amended, as many of that ophnion, | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
say aye. The question is as on the order | :03:02. | :03:10. | |
paper. As many of that opinhon is a aye. | :03:11. | :03:12. | |
The question is as on the order paper. As many of that opinhon, say | :03:13. | :03:22. | |
aye. We now come to the petitions and I | :03:23. | :03:36. | |
call on Tommy Sheppard. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
the opportunity to... Those that wish to sit, please do so. The rest | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
of us, please move very quickly so I can hear Tommy Sheppard. I `m | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
grateful for the opportunitx to present this petition calling for | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
fair transitional arrangements for women born in the 1950s who are | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
affected by the changes to the state pension age. Members will rdmember | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
that the last time the housd debated the pensions act of 2011, mhnisters | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
promised there would be fair transition arrangements. Thdse have | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
failed to materialise, affecting women in Edinburgh East and many | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
other areas. I thank all of those that contributed to the pethtion and | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
many others around the country who have contributed in similar terms to | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
petitions launched by other members. The petition from the residdnts of | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
Edinburgh East constituency declares that as a result of the way the 1995 | :04:34. | :04:41. | |
Pension At and the 2011 Pension At were prevented, women born hn the | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
50s, on or after the 5th of April 1951, have unfairly born of the | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
burden of the increase to the state pension age. Further, hundrdds of | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
thousands of women have had significant changes imposed on them | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
with little or no personal notice. Further, the fermentation took place | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
faster than promised and, ftrther, it gave no time to make altdrnative | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
pension plans. -- in fermentation. Further, that retirement pl`ns have | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
been shattered, with devast`ting consequences. The petitioners | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
therefore request the House of Commons urges the Government to make | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
fair transitional arrangements for all women born in the 1950s, on or | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
after the 6th of April 1951, and who have unfairly born the burddn of the | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
the state pension age. And Limitation Of The 1995 Pension | :05:27. | :05:50. | |
Act. I Present This Petition, Signed By | :05:51. | :06:04. | |
Over 500 Of The Residents, @nd The Half Of The Women The State Pension | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
Inequality. The women who shgned this petition, the people that have | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
been the beneficiaries of the petition, have discovered the | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
heartbreaking news that thehr plans, hope and anticipation for rdtirement | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
have been shattered. These women have acted with such good grace | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
dignity and unstoppable determination. They are a credit to | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
our community and I hope thd Government takes heed of thhs | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
petition. The petitioners rdquest the House of Commons urges the | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
Government to make the transitional arrangements for all women born in | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
the 1950s who have been unf`irly made to bear the burden of the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
increase in state pension age. Petition, Implementation Of The 1995 | :06:46. | :07:00. | |
Pension Act. I rise to present a petition on | :07:01. | :07:12. | |
behalf of my constituents in Telford belatedly and limitation of the 1995 | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
and 2011 Pensions Act. The petition I am presenting is identical to the | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
one presented by the members opposite, so I will not read it out. | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
In any event, I do not have my glasses! | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
Petition, Implementation Of The 1995 Pension Act. | :07:33. | :07:43. | |
We can now petition Mr David Nuttall. I rise to present ` | :07:44. | :07:53. | |
petition of 26 residents of my Bury North constituency, related to be in | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
plantation of the 1995 and 2011 pension act, a petition in the same | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
terms as the others presentdd today and on several recent days `nd | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
concludes that the petitiondrs therefore request the House of | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
Commons urges the government to make a fair transitional arrangelents for | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
all women born on or after the six April 1951 who have unfairlx born | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
the burden of the increase to the state pension age. | :08:20. | :08:35. | |
Petition, Implementation Of The 1995 and 2011 Pension Act. | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
I rise here today to present a petition on behalf of sever`l | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
hundred is a dense of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, pertaining to the | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
implantation of the 1995 and 20 1 pension sacked. The petition I am | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
presenting is identical to the one presented by the honourable member | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
for Edinburgh East. He has `lready referred to the content of the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
petition so I will not read out further. Petitioners have rdquested | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
the House of Commons urges the government to make their | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
transitional arrangements for all women born on or after the 6th of | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
April 1951 who have unfairlx born the burden of the increase of the | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
state pension age. I wish to personally paid tribute to the | :09:20. | :09:26. | |
Northern Ireland coordinator of the petition lobby group who is also | :09:27. | :09:28. | |
from Fermanagh and South Tyrone Petition, Implementation Of The 1995 | :09:29. | :09:39. | |
and 2011 Pension Act. I beg to move, the house do now | :09:40. | :09:54. | |
adjourned. The question is, the Halsti now adjourned. Keith Vaz | :09:55. | :10:04. | |
This is a vitally important debate. I'm surprised a minister from not | :10:05. | :10:13. | |
the Foreign Office is at thd house tonight. Ministers have alw`ys | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
feared the FCO would eventu`lly take control of Diffit. But that's | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
tonight we are seeing a revdrse takeover. The Minister's knowledge | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
is not in doubt and I'm delhghted to see him here. Tonight's deb`te | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
occurs at one of the most critical moments in Yemen's long history In | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
August UN backed peace talks in Kuwait between the rebels and | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
government broke down leading to intensive fighting and a restart to | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
air strikes. Thousands have died in the following months. Only last week | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
140 people were killed and 400 people injured in an air strike on a | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
funeral. An incident the Satdi government has now apologisdd for, | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
blaming the bombing on bad intelligence. What a terrible reason | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
to die. This morning, a 72 hour ceasefire was announced by the UN | :11:17. | :11:24. | |
special envoy, which will bdgin at midnight tomorrow. All our dyes | :11:25. | :11:31. | |
might be on Syria and Iraq, but tonight we in the British P`rliament | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
invite the world to focus on Yemen's forgotten crisis. Our message to the | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
government is quite simple. Either we stop the fighting permandntly or | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
Yemen will bleed to death. H have been privileged to service the chair | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
of the Yemen group since johning parliament and I'm very protd that | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
so many members are interested in this country, and so many mdmbers | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
present today. So many membdrs of this house were born in Yemdn apart | :12:03. | :12:10. | |
from myself, including the lembers of Portsmouth South, who is an | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
officer of the all-party group, as long as the members of Charnwood and | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
Glasgow Central. Other membdrs have served the Armed Forces in Xemen | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
including the member for Beckenham. Those who represent constittencies | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
with large communities from Yemen have worked hard with their | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
constituents including the lembers for Liverpool Wavertree, West Derby, | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
Liverpool Riverside and Cardiff South will stop this includds the | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
late Harry Harbin, who servdd as the group's secretary. I'm delighted his | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
successor, the member for Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough is | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
equally dedicated. Tomorrow the group will be meeting with | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
representatives of all the lajor charities to hear from the former | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
Foreign Minister of Yemen 's parliamentary ties further | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
demonstrate unique ship our country has with the Yemen over the last 150 | :13:08. | :13:15. | |
years. When Yemen as lasting crisis during the Arab Spring of 2011 it | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
was the British government that worked with the Yemeni government, | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
particularly the current Minister of State and Foreign Office, the member | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
for Rutland, who later becale the Prime Minister's envoy to Ydmen We | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
supported Yemen through that crisis, which other than Tunisia was the | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
only peaceful, democratic rdvolution in the Middle East. Continud to be | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
one of the largest bilateral aid donors at the International | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
Development Secretary has jtst raised our contribution to ` total | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
of ?100 million. In turn, the Yemen people have a great love for | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
Britain. When the Yemen Fordign Minister visited Parliament last | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
year he brought with him a video. It wasn't a video of the ongoing | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
conflict which we were award of but of our Queen's last visit where the | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
local hospital I was born in was named after her. This posithve and | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
therefore makes the current situation all the more traghc. | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
Through a sluggish confused and weak approach to the crisis, the | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
international community as ` whole should be measured against ` | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
scorecard of shame. Over 10,000 people have been killed in the last | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
18 months. At least 1200 chhldren have been killed and 1700 h`ve been | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
injured. 3 million are now suffering from acute malnutrition will stop | :14:41. | :14:48. | |
21.2 million people require urgent humanitarian assistance. 9.8 million | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
of whom are children, four fifths of the entire population of thd | :14:54. | :15:00. | |
country. 3.2 million people are internally displaced. 19.3 lillion | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
in need of health care and protection services. 14.1 mhllion | :15:05. | :15:14. | |
are at risk of hunger, equivalent to the combined populations of London, | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
Birmingham and Glasgow. I ghve way to the Honourable Lady. Cle`rly the | :15:19. | :15:24. | |
impact on the most vulnerable in society in Yemen is immeasurable. | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
It's our job in this house to stand up against what is wrong, btt | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
instead in this situation, does he agree with me that in fact we are | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
enabling that? I agree wholeheartedly with the Honourable | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
Lady. She is right to raise it, and I want to commend her party and its | :15:42. | :15:44. | |
members for the way in which they have raised Yemen on so manx | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
occasions. I and the house `re very grateful for that. But she hs right, | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
we need to do much more. But organisations like save the | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
children, Unicef, Islamic rdlief and the Red Cross, although thex are | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
performing wonders on the ground, they are struggling to get funding | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
needed for emergency progralmes Will my right honourable frhend give | :16:08. | :16:11. | |
way? I thank my honourable friend. He will be interested to know I | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
recently travelled to the World Bank with results UK to put forw`rd the | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
argument that the first thotsand days of a child's life is vhtal for | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
their development. This means even when the conflict ends, the effects | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
will not stop. They will not cease. Millions of children will bd left | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
stunted, left with delayed cognitive development and might still die | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
despite the conflict ending. Does he agree that we need to be dohng more | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
to find a peace solution? I do and I thank her for that intervention in. | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
I agree with her wholeheartddly However when faced with a crisis of | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
these proportions, one would have expected, as the Honourable Lady has | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
said, that the international community led by the United Kingdom, | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
to be urgently bringing this conflict to an end and putthng this | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
at the very top of the agenda at the United Nations. Instead, whdn faced | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
with this reality, the world has failed the Yemen. We have f`iled to | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
stop the escalation of violdnce in March last year, and we failed to | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
stop the fighting over the last 18 months. We've had two clear | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
opportunities for a sustain`ble end to the fighting. A brief ce`sefire | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
for negotiations in April this year ended in failure. The UN sponsored | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
round of talks in Kuwait ended in failure in August. Could thd | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
Minister confirm whether or not the UK Government was invited to these | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
negotiations. Were we actually in the room? I give way to the | :17:42. | :17:49. | |
Honourable gentleman. I thank the right honourable gentleman for | :17:50. | :17:51. | |
giving way and his knowledgd and care for this country is well known. | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
Would he agree with me that what would make the greatest difference | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
to the humanitarian situation in Yemen would be eight sustainable | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
ceasefire followed by a long-term sustainable peace settlement. While | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
that settlement must origin`te from the Yemeni people themselves and not | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
be imposed from outside, thd unique historical relationship the UK as | :18:11. | :18:17. | |
with Yemen, as was alluded to, makes us well-placed to facilitatd the | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
delivery of that settlement building on the work of my right honourable | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
friend, the Honourable membdr for Rutland and Melton? I agree with the | :18:25. | :18:32. | |
Honourable gentleman, the vhce-chair of the all-party group. He hs | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
correct to highlight the vital role the member for Rutland had. There is | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
a vacancy for a special envoy for the Yemen and I think the Honourable | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
gentleman would make a very good contribution if I can persu`de the | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
Prime Minister to send him there among his other duties. It's this | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
lack of diplomatic progress the intervention by the Saudi ldd | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
coalition has become central to the crisis. This coalition intervened at | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
the request of the legitimate government in Yemen, however 18 | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
months on, the air strikes which are heavily impact the civilian | :19:08. | :19:09. | |
population have become counter-productive. So | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
counter-productive that it has become the eye of the storm of | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
intense criticism that overshadows every other element of the crisis. | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
These air strikes, which save the children believed to be responsible | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
for 60% of all civilian deaths in the conflict, are breeding hostility | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
inside and outside Yemen. I will give way. My right honourable friend | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
will be aware of the report of the International development committee | :19:44. | :19:45. | |
and business committee on this matter, but is he aware that | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
yesterday a number of us met with the Saudi Foreign Minister `s well | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
as UK Government ministers, and there was a frank and candid | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
discussion about the terrible attack on the funeral hall, the Satdi | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Foreign Minister refused to give any clarity as to when and what level | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
investigations would take place into the hundreds of other inciddnts that | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
have been reported by leading non-governmental organisations. | :20:09. | :20:16. | |
Doesn't he agree with me th`t it's absolutely imperative that they are | :20:17. | :20:18. | |
clear on what happened in those instances and give an indepdndent | :20:19. | :20:20. | |
investigation. My honourabld friend is absolutely right and I commend | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
him on what he has done. He has a large Yemeni community in C`rdiff | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
South. It is right to bring this to the attention of the Saudis. Thank | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
you for giving way. I think we all recognise and welcome moves for a | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
ceasefire. However, there are two met House of Commons select | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
committee is that endorse that UK arms exports to the Saudis should | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
cease. Would my right honourable friend agree with me that the | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
government to respect the fhndings of the committees and stop `rm sales | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
until a proper investigations into the atrocities in Yemen takds place | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
or a permanent ceasefire is put in place? I agree. When I come on to | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
looking at the imprecations of the ceasefire I will have that `s one of | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
my asks of the Minister. I give way to the Honourable Lady and then the | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
Honourable gentleman. It is really this issue of the extra petrol we | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
are pouring on the flames. H have raised on a number of occashons the | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
bombing of MSF hospitals, stch as last autumn, and we are alw`ys told | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
that Saudi Arabia will investigate. And that's just not good enough We | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
should not be selling arms hnto this situation. Again, I agree | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
wholeheartedly with what shd has said. I think this is something | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
where we must press the govdrnment if we are to get a peaceful | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
solution. I give way to the chair of the arms export committee. H know a | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
couple of questions have bedn asked by people who served on the | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
committee for arms export controls. ... Order. I beg to move th`t this | :21:58. | :22:04. | |
house do now adjourn. The qtestion is, does this house now adjourn | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
Thank you, I didn't know I had that effect on the house! It is the seven | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
o'clock effect! | :22:15. | :22:19. |