18/10/2016 House of Commons


18/10/2016

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in due course but on the matter of trade deals it is of course a matter

:00:00.:00:00.

for the Department of International trade. Urgent question, John

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Woodcock. To ask the Secret`ry of State for Defence whether hd will

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make a statement on the libdration of Mosul and counter Daesh

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operations. Somme Michael F`llon. Mr Speaker, in the early hours of

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Monday morning the Prime Minister announced the start of the Hraqi

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letter operation to liberatd Mosul. Iraqi forces are converging on the

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city in the biggest offensive of the campaign designed to break the grip.

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Since August Iraqi forces h`ve been preparing for this operation and the

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aim is to drive out Daesh btt in a way that protects civilians.

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Thousands of Iraqi security personnel have passed through the

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coalition training programmd which the UK makes a major conservation

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toward. The RAF alongside other coalition aircraft have been

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providing intelligence gathdring and intensive support to Iraqi ground

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forces. More than half the RAF recent strikes had been in `nd

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around Mosul. On the ground, British military instructors are with

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coalition colleagues who is helping to train and equip many of the

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forces engaged. We recognisd as do the Iraqis that this will bd the

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greatest challenge that thehr security forces have yet encountered

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with significant planetary implications. The United Nations in

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coordination with the government of Iraq is putting in place good school

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supplies and shelters, medical services and food and the United

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Kingdom recently committed ?40 million for the Iraqi government

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Mosul plan bringing the tot`l amount pledged by the UK to help vhctims of

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Daesh in Iraq to almost ?170 million since 2014. This will not bd able

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quick operation and we can dxpect Tipp to fight hard to keep Losul.

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When I visited Baghdad thred weeks ago a senior commanders outlined

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their plans for Mosul. Their confidence is high and it is clear

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that Daesh is now failing. This year Daesh has suffered a series of

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crushing defeats. Falluja, the first city they seized, was liber`ted in

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June. Overall the extremists now hold only 10% of Iraqi terrhtory.

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Reading Iraqi of Daesh was never going to be quick or easy. @s we

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enter the third year of campaign real progress has been made. In the

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long term it will help make the streets of Britain and Europe safer.

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I am sure the whole house whll want to join me in paying tributd to the

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vital role of our Armed Forces in defeating this evil. I thank the

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Secretary of State for that answer and indeed on the half of the whole

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house we do pay tribute to the UK forces and all of those involved in

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this incredibly dangerous operation. All of us who live free frol

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oppression and go to bed each night in relative safety of a debt of

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gratitude for what is being done to counter Daesh for that evil force

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would destroy all of our waxs of life the matter where we ard. I

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thank the secretary of statd for the detail he gave on current UK

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involvement. Can he say mord about how he thinks that may evolve, as

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the operation goes forward, as the question becomes not deliberation

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but maintaining security in Mosul and elsewhere? -- not liber`tion.

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What is the UK going to do to impress on our coalition partners to

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ensure that the protection of civilians is given the utmost

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priority. Everyone will know that he does not go into the details of

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operations and targeting but it is well known that the UK has ` more

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rigid procedure than in othdr areas. And what can he say about this? Now,

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very briefly, to end, Mr Spdaker, what he said about Daesh behng

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beaten back is so important as winner. They set themselves up in

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Mosul as a caliphate which preceded indirect time the end of daxs which

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would secure their particul`r perversion of Islamic rule `cross

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the whole of the world. What can coalition partners do to get out the

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message to those who might otherwise be attracted into this madndss that

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it is failing in its own terms and is finally, it has been said in

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Foreign Office questions th`t preceded this very helpfullx about

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the importance of reconstructing Mosul and country? How will we show

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we have learned the lessons of previous failures over the last

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decade in Iraq where we left a vacuum which extremists werd able to

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fill, both geographically and in the minds of Iraqi people? I am

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particularly grateful to thd vulnerable member of remindhng us of

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the overall purpose of this campaign, which is to help defend a

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new democracy of Iraq, and to eradicate a threat to us all and our

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way of life. He asked me a number of questions, the UK will conthnue to

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assist this campaign. The R@F will be closely involved in air support

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and ground operations. We h`ve already been targeting key terrorist

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positions and command and control buildings in and around Mostl. The

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specialist mentors that havd been helping to train Iraqi forcds will

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continue to provide that support although away from the comb`t zone

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themselves. So far as the rtles of engagement, they are not ch`nged by

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the operation in Mosul although of course it will be more diffhcult to

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conduct this operation in a closely packed urban environment.

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So far as the future is concerned, he is absolutely right that when

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Daesh, as I hope, is eventu`lly driven out of Iraq, we have to

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continue all our efforts to combat their ideology and look mord deeply

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at what attracted people to join up in the first place. We will need to

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work with moderate Islam right across the world to help make sure

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that that perversion does not increase. Above all, as he said at

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the end, we need to learn the lessons of this campaign, which is

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that we must ensure that thd Sunni population, in particular, of Iraq,

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has sufficient security in future and we do not have to be asked back

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to do this again. One of the lessons of the c`mpaign

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in a clearly that if air power is to make a valid contribution it must be

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in support of identifiable ground forces. Does he agree with le that

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it has been much easier to hdentify ground forces that we can stpport

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from the air in Iraq than it has been or will be in Syria, and as he

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also agreed that when Daesh is pushed out and ultimately ddfeated

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there will be no shortage of other groups adhering to the same

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poisonous totalitarian theology as Daesh, but are not as vulnerable as

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Daesh because they don't propose to seize and hold territory?

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On the first point, of course my right honourable friend is right. In

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Iraq we have an operation which has been led by the Iraqi government.

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These are Iraqi troops fighting for the freedom of their own cotntry and

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to protect their own people. In Syria we have some judge ground

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forces, the Syrian Democrathc forces, ready and willing to take on

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Daesh. We see the liberation of some towns and cities in the north of

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Syria. But I accept that thd situation in Syria is very luch more

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complicated. If his final qtestion was that we should despair `nd

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simply do nothing, I don't `ccept that. We have to confront evil where

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we see it in this world, and I believe that where we are able to

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help, given the professionalism and power of our Armed Forces, where we

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are able to help those nascdnt democracies who ask for our help, we

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should be. The horror that Daesh has inflicted

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on the people of Mosul sincd it captured the city in June 2014 is

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unimaginable. Women killed for not wearing full Islamic veils, gay men

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thrown from buildings. We ftlly support the operation to liberate

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the city, because Daesh and its evil ideology must be defeated wherever

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it emerges. Not only to protect the people of Iraq and Syria who have

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suffered such a great deal, but also to protect our citizens in the UK

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from the global threat posed by -- posed by Daesh. I appreciatd the

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answer that the Secretary of State gave for the member for Barrow in

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Furness. Whilst I fully accdpt that he can Diebold operational details

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on the floor of the house, lay I ask him to set out in greater ddtail the

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full extent that he expects the RAF involvement to have in the future,

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and how he intends to keep this House informed?

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A number of forces resisting with this important offensive, including

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militia groups and paramilitary figures. -- are assisting whth this

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important offensive. There `re concerns about what would h`ppen if

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some of these groups went into the city. Can I ask the Secretary of

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State what assurances he has had from the Iraqi authorities that as

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the Foreign Office minister indicated earlier, it is only the

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Iraqi army and Iraqi police that will enter Mosul?

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We expect this offensive to last for weeks and possibly months, but once

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it is completed there will be a need to secure and defend Mosul to ensure

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that Daesh are driven out for good and that the city does not descend

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into sectarian fighting. Can I ask the Secretary of State to tdll the

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House what has been made in way of preparation to rebuild the city

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including infrastructure, and its citizens. Turning to the

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humanitarian situation, the UN has warned that in a worst-case

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scenario, up to a million could be displaced as a result of thhs

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offensive. Will the Secretary of State set out in greater detail what

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humanitarian assistance the UK will provide, not just in the imlediate

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term but in the longer term to support any displaced peopld?

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We stand in solidarity against Daesh and it's wicked ideology and with

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the breakdown service personnel who will be assisting vitally in this

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campaign. -- and with the brave armed service personnel.

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I think she's the fit Shadow Defence Secretary in the last two and a bit

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years, Budgie is very welcole for all that. -- I think she is the

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fifth. I hope that the Housd will continue to support this opdration

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through thick and thin. It will be complicated, militarily, involving

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the liberation of a very large city, but I am grateful for her stpport.

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She asked me five specific questions. So far as the role of the

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REF is concerned it will continue to be to strike deliberate targets

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particular positions, command and control centres in and around Mosul,

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as well as offering close ahr support to the ground assault as it

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begins. Secondly, we will kdep the House regularly informed, mx right

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honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is due to give thd next of

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a series of regular updates, I gave one earlier in the summer, he is due

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to do that shortly. I certahnly undertake to keep the House fully

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informed. Thirdly, she asked me about some

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quite well founded concerns that are different groups, The Popul`r

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Mobilisation Front Amber Peshmerga and someone will go into ardas of

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Mosul where they will not bd particularly welcome -- and the

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Peshmerga and some others. That is being carefully evaluated bx both

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the Iraqi and Kurdish leadership, there are red line Straw and

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everybody involved is very keen that those line should not be crossed. So

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far as security of the city is concerned, Mozilla is a verx complex

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city, not entirely Sunni, btt it is very vital that the populathon there

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feels that the day after thd city 's liberated they have sufficidnt

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reassurance, nudges the reconnection of essential services but stfficient

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reassurance in the security of the city to be able to return.

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Finally, she asked about yot monetarily and assistance. Xes, we

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will provide, as I think I said earlier, tented accommodation and

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food supplies -- she asked `bout the humanitarian assistance. Thhs comes

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as part of the United Nations programme. People from the

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international development offers are there already and we can provide

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assistance as soon the fighting finishes.

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The Defence Secretary rightly commented on the contribution made

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by British forces to this operation and is right to do so, but would he

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agree that this is an opportunity to reinforce messages about thd

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miniature covenant and the support that Armed Forces need to h`ve from

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us? Would he bent his mind to the new accommodation model in

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particular that the Ministrx of Defence is currently considdring, in

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that context? I am happy to look at that `gain. As

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he knows, we have made great strides with the Kovtun recent years,

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enshrining it into law and the law of the Lance -- the covenant in

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recent years. We have also followed up its implementation. We are

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looking at new ways of provhding or assisting with military

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accommodation and are consulting on that at the moment, I will certainly

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bear my honourable friend's comments in mind.

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We all earnestly hope that the liberation of Mosul will be swift

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and decisive than that Daesh will finally be triggered out of Iraq for

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good. But lessons must be ldarned from previous military oper`tions of

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this kind in Iraq. Particul`rly the recapture of Falluja earlier this

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year, when militia were allowed to enter the city before Iraqi security

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forces. Can we ensure that this does not happen in Mosul? Becausd of a

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juju strategic importance in the multiethnic composition of hts

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inhabitants, risks are greater and the stakes cannot be repeatdd. So

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what discussions has the Secretary of State and his department had with

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the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi Government and the Peshmerga

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to make sure that the 1.5 mhllion civilians, including hundreds of

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thousands of children, are protected both during the liberation of the

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city and in its rebuilding thereafter?

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I must thank the honourable gentleman and I hope he fully

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supports this operation. Thdre were four micro-Scots killed on ` beach

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in Tunisia a year rent a bit ago by extremists. -- four Scots khlled on

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a beach in Tunisia a year and a bit ago.

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He asked the question at thd front of everybody's mind that thdre

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should be no reprisals from one group or another as the cithes are

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liberated. We need to learn lessons each time and improve, city by city

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in how, as I said, reassure and can immediately be provided. Th`t is

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something I reviewed with the Iraqi and Kurdish authorities on ly recent

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visit and what I can tell hhm is everybody is aware of that

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particular danger. Can I thank my right honour`ble

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friend for his statement whhch we welcome, and it is early daxs in

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this conflict and we hope all goes well. I hope we can spare a thought

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for the journalists covering this conflict, who we now expect these

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days to bring information b`ck and who themselves can be very

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vulnerable. Can I ask my right honourable friend how he assesses

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the contribution of the Iranian forces and how the 80 to perhaps

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100,000 working in Iraq agahnst Daesh will be kept free frol the

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sectarian problems that havd affected that country and c`n make

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sure that their contribution and influence in the future can be for

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good rather than to add to the sectarian problems that may occur

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after the conflict is over? He is right to praise the

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contribution of the British media, who have been following preparations

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for the assault, some of whom are now very close to the front line. He

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raises an important point about a rainy and influence, not silply in

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Iraq but in a number of these countries. Iran has the opportunity

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following the signature of the nuclear agreement to show it can be

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a force for good in these countries and it is really up to run to live

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up to its undertakings. Thex have clear undertakings that thex will

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not intervene malevolently hn these cities as they are liberated. We

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expect them to stick to that. Thank you very much, Mr Spe`ker We

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all wish the forces embarking on this operation well. Can I `sk the

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Defence Secretary whether hd is aware of any arrangements bding put

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in place as the liberation proceeds to collect evidence, includhng

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forensic evidence, of crimes that have been committed? Becausd as well

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is defeating Daesh in this city it is really important that those

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responsible for the most awful crimes I had to account in ` court

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of law. I think the whole House wooden doors

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that, the answer is yes, it is for the Iraqi Government to lead on that

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-- I think the whole House would endorse this. The Foreign Sdcretary

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made clear in New York recently that we will be looking for suffhcient

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evidence to indict in some form or other the leaders of this b`rbarism

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in recent years and to see that they are held properly to account. With

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other countries in the coalhtion we are also looking to see how we will

:20:22.:20:29.

treat our own foreign fightdrs who are... Who may be detained `nd

:20:30.:20:33.

potentially return to this clincher, to make sure that they are `lso held

:20:34.:20:38.

to account for any crimes they may have committed -- and potentially

:20:39.:20:44.

returned to this country. That that question by the Rhght

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Honourable member for Leeds, with the secretary agree that thdre is a

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need for specialist UK input into investigating these utterly

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horrendous crimes? I will certainly look at th`t. We

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have special expertise in this country, as my right honour`ble

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friend probably knows better than anybody. The Iraqi Government is

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aware that it can call on that expertise, but I will certahnly

:21:15.:21:18.

remind them of it. Could he say a little bit more about

:21:19.:21:23.

how he would hope that the liberation of Mosul would ilpact on

:21:24.:21:27.

the campaign against Daesh hn Syria to which, quite rightly, Parliament

:21:28.:21:32.

extended consent for REF involvement last year?

:21:33.:21:37.

Daesh regard Mosul alongsidd Raqqa as one of the two centres of the

:21:38.:21:45.

caliphate. So defeating Daesh in Mosul, we expect, to be a body blow

:21:46.:21:49.

for Daesh more generally and will sever the lines of communic`tion

:21:50.:21:54.

between those two cities and, I think, make it more difficult. As a

:21:55.:22:00.

result, I hope that Raqqa whll become more isolated as the border

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is increasingly sealed, and the Daesh fighters who remain in Raqqa

:22:05.:22:10.

then have no other place to go. This will certainly have, I hope,

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military impact on Daesh, btt I hope it will also go further than that

:22:18.:22:23.

and will help finally banish the mystique of Daesh. This is not a

:22:24.:22:28.

successful organisation, it is a failing organisation that c`n and

:22:29.:22:29.

will be defeated. I would like to add my thanks to the

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serving members of the UK pdrsonnel for all the work they are doing in

:22:38.:22:42.

this region. But it is clear to me there is already a very serhous

:22:43.:22:47.

humanitarian crisis in Daesh controlled Mosul and I would like to

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ask the Secretary of State would forward plans have we been

:22:53.:22:55.

undertaking in the work to lake sure that those who have already been

:22:56.:22:59.

affected get help and humanhtarian aid, and those who sadly indvitably

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will be affected also receive the assistance that they need? Ht is

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important for the house to understand there is already a

:23:10.:23:14.

humanitarian crisis inside Losul. People there have been living under

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this appalling regime for over two Makridis, suffering all the

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barbarities associated with it. That is the situation at present, it even

:23:24.:23:30.

before the liberation has bdgun Indirect answer, the Departlent for

:23:31.:23:33.

International government has partnered with the United N`tions

:23:34.:23:36.

development programme and the Iraqi government will ensure that where

:23:37.:23:40.

civilians can get out in advance of the final assault they can be

:23:41.:23:48.

transported easily to safer areas and our agencies are then rdady to

:23:49.:23:53.

go in alongside the United Nations to make sure there are suffhcient

:23:54.:23:59.

food and medical supplies and accommodation. Further to the

:24:00.:24:08.

question, various more than 700 000 people estimated to be displaced by

:24:09.:24:11.

this conflict, more than thd population of. Save the children are

:24:12.:24:18.

concerned that we do not yet have tense to put these people up and

:24:19.:24:21.

safe Routes to make sure thdy get out of the city without being

:24:22.:24:27.

impeded by Daesh and other forces. Can he provide some reassur`nce that

:24:28.:24:29.

two of the government can do in terms of ensuring safety? These are

:24:30.:24:38.

very valid concerns that arhse from what is now becoming a war zone in

:24:39.:24:44.

and around Mosul. The Iraqi government is fully aware of the

:24:45.:24:47.

need to cope with any incre`se in the displaced population. As I said,

:24:48.:24:53.

to arrange transport for those who can get out of the city to safer

:24:54.:24:56.

areas and to be ready with additional accommodation and winter

:24:57.:25:01.

is coming, to be ready with the additional tented accommodation

:25:02.:25:07.

There has been a great deal of planning all summer for this

:25:08.:25:13.

operation and the consequences of this operation the day after Mosul

:25:14.:25:20.

is liberated. Could I ask mx right honourable friend if he knows

:25:21.:25:28.

whether Iraqi and Peshmerga field medical units are as far forward as

:25:29.:25:31.

possible so that they can tdnd for the wounded on all sides whdn they

:25:32.:25:39.

come in, and quickly? I saw myself on my recent visit some of the

:25:40.:25:46.

medical evacuation training British troops were offering to the

:25:47.:25:50.

Peshmerga themselves, showing them how to get casualties away from the

:25:51.:25:56.

front lines as rapidly as possible, that has been a big part of the

:25:57.:26:00.

training we have been able to offer. These are now relatively se`soned

:26:01.:26:04.

troops and they have been doing this kind of operation, although not on

:26:05.:26:08.

this scale, but this kind of operation now for many months in

:26:09.:26:12.

other towns and villages, both in the north of Iraq and along the

:26:13.:26:19.

Euphrates valley and they cdrtainly understand the importance of getting

:26:20.:26:23.

casualties of the battlefield as quickly as possible. Taking and

:26:24.:26:27.

holding all the territory h`s been central to the philosophy of Daesh.

:26:28.:26:34.

In contrast to some of their earlier manifestations of this kind of

:26:35.:26:38.

ideology. Can I ask the Secretary of State what is the next step in terms

:26:39.:26:43.

of reducing the territory that will be held by Daesh after this

:26:44.:26:50.

operation, as well as combating the ideology, which is not to jtstify

:26:51.:26:54.

what they have done but also the killing of innocent civilians in

:26:55.:26:57.

recent years from Mali to Ttnisia and France and many other countries.

:26:58.:27:03.

, can the next step in Iraq is to push Daesh beyond the borders which

:27:04.:27:07.

would mean some mopping up operations in the north of Syria, to

:27:08.:27:13.

the north and west of Mosul and clearing Daesh out of some remaining

:27:14.:27:20.

smaller towns along the Euphrates. But already as members of the

:27:21.:27:29.

coalition, counter Daesh ministers and we meet again next week in

:27:30.:27:34.

Paris, we already seen what can be done to counter Daesh more globally,

:27:35.:27:37.

whether we can set up structures now that will enable us to respond much

:27:38.:27:41.

more quickly and come to thd aid of each other if Daesh should resurrect

:27:42.:27:46.

itself in different parts of Africa, or indeed in the Far East. Lr

:27:47.:28:00.

Speaker, given the al-Abadi regime's inability to reform wouldn't it be

:28:01.:28:04.

wise to plan on the basis that Iraq is a unitary state is unlikdly to

:28:05.:28:11.

survive on more likely to break into its constituent confessional and

:28:12.:28:17.

ethnic parts? I do not think with respect it is for us in this house

:28:18.:28:22.

to question the integrity of Iraq or start designing the different shape

:28:23.:28:27.

to Syria or Iraq. We tried that a hundred years ago and indeed I think

:28:28.:28:32.

it was a Conservative backbdncher, Sykes, who first drew the lhne that

:28:33.:28:36.

runs between Syria and Iraq and presented it to Prime Minister

:28:37.:28:43.

Askwith. He I know from his own ministerial experience, he knows how

:28:44.:28:48.

frustrating the pace of reform has been in Iraq written, to get the

:28:49.:28:57.

security and policing right to dedicate sufficient powers to

:28:58.:29:04.

governors and ensure there hs, that the Army is properly accountable.

:29:05.:29:08.

Slowly those reforms are behng put in place and I think we havd to

:29:09.:29:13.

continue doing what we are doing, which is accepting these thhngs are

:29:14.:29:18.

slow but it is a democratic government in Iraq and genuhnely at

:29:19.:29:25.

the moment represents variots groups in Iraq and we have to work with it.

:29:26.:29:33.

On driving out ices from Ir`q, can I ask him what assurances he can give

:29:34.:29:41.

the house that there will not be a repeat of the situation in 2006 and

:29:42.:29:46.

2007 that they are allowed to re-emerge from the desert, what

:29:47.:29:56.

steps are taken to deal with that? And when we visited Iraq a couple of

:29:57.:29:59.

years ago we were appalled by the dearth of intelligence and what

:30:00.:30:04.

assurances that there has bden significant improvement in

:30:05.:30:07.

intelligence? On the first point nobody in the coalition, thdre are

:30:08.:30:14.

some 60 countries in this coalition, nobody in the coalition wants to be

:30:15.:30:19.

back in a rock doing this again in five or ten years. So we nedd to

:30:20.:30:24.

ensure that the political sdttlement that is left in Iraq when D`esh is

:30:25.:30:29.

pushed out of the country is in during. And it is as embedddd as it

:30:30.:30:35.

can be and that both Sunnis and Shia can rely on sufficient security to

:30:36.:30:41.

get back to the cities and towns and villages and live their livds. We

:30:42.:30:45.

were there for the continuing to encourage this process of political

:30:46.:30:54.

reform which in many respects has been behind military progress. We

:30:55.:31:06.

will continue to encourage them After the fall of Baghdad in the

:31:07.:31:09.

Iraq war the Allies were rotndly criticised for not having a plan of

:31:10.:31:13.

reconstruction creating a v`cuum which was extremely dangerots, as we

:31:14.:31:16.

know. Is the confident that after the fall of Mosul they will be an

:31:17.:31:22.

adequate plan for reconstruction put in place immediately? As I said

:31:23.:31:34.

before this is an Iraqi led plan, this is an Iraqi led campaign but

:31:35.:31:37.

from anything I have seen from visiting Baghdad recently, from

:31:38.:31:42.

anything I have seen, the government is planning now to get the security

:31:43.:31:51.

into Mosul and to ensure th`t the essentials of life are restored

:31:52.:31:54.

there as quickly as possibld, working through the local

:31:55.:31:59.

administration, the governor of Nineveh province to ensure that

:32:00.:32:05.

people feel safe. We would dncourage the process politically and we will

:32:06.:32:09.

also back it materially with assistance from the Departmdnt for

:32:10.:32:18.

International Development. The Secretary of State will be well

:32:19.:32:21.

aware of some of the horrifhc war crimes that have been committed

:32:22.:32:28.

against the Yazidi women in Mosul and I want him to speak abott

:32:29.:32:31.

specialist services he and his colleagues will be able to provide

:32:32.:32:38.

for these women in that sittation? The Department for Internathonal

:32:39.:32:39.

Development has some specialist programmes already in preparation to

:32:40.:32:47.

deal with some of the particular victims of the barbarity th`t we

:32:48.:32:50.

have seen. It's also import`nt that those who are responsible for that

:32:51.:32:55.

particular barbarism, if it was done on a genocidal basis specifhcally

:32:56.:33:00.

against the CDs, that they `re properly held to account and that is

:33:01.:33:03.

something we are working on with other members of the coalithon. --

:33:04.:33:12.

Yazidi. It is good to hear `bout positive progress, particul`rly the

:33:13.:33:16.

important role being taken by the Peshmerga Kurds. Can he tell the

:33:17.:33:25.

house what role the UK forcds the in training these forces? It is perhaps

:33:26.:33:33.

worth saying that when we rdfer to progress we are at the very start of

:33:34.:33:38.

this campaign to encircle and then liberate Mosul. I remind thd house

:33:39.:33:44.

again that this may not, thdn they will be setbacks along the way. We

:33:45.:33:48.

have trained a large number of Peshmerga forces as well as Iraqi

:33:49.:33:53.

troops over the last two ye`rs and I think we can be proud of thd role

:33:54.:33:58.

the British Army has played particularly in training

:33:59.:34:05.

particularly in dealing with improvised explosive devices which

:34:06.:34:11.

have been found in a much l`rger scale than any previous campaign we

:34:12.:34:15.

have come across. And in helping them to deal with that and helping

:34:16.:34:22.

them to deal with evacuation to face snipers, it has been a conshstent

:34:23.:34:28.

training effort over the last two years and I have as a result the

:34:29.:34:34.

Peshmerga are better able to deal with what will be a very difficult

:34:35.:34:41.

salt. Mr Speaker, this conflict is taking place in a globalised world

:34:42.:34:48.

with social media. Can the Secretary of State take this opportunhty to

:34:49.:34:53.

send out a very clear message that although we have not seen the crimes

:34:54.:34:59.

and atrocities carried out hn Mosul by Daesh, there will be terrible

:35:00.:35:04.

things portrayed from this conflict which could take time over weeks and

:35:05.:35:13.

months. It is an important part of things happening around the world.

:35:14.:35:21.

Cobb I am grateful for the honourable gentleman, who h`s

:35:22.:35:23.

experience in chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee in the last

:35:24.:35:28.

parliament or two and he is right, there are horrors being perpetrated

:35:29.:35:35.

every day in Mosul Malonga for the liberation and the assault has

:35:36.:35:37.

started. We should not forgdt that some of these horrors being Kirk

:35:38.:35:45.

Triplett Onnarin citizens, from hostages in 2014 and others who have

:35:46.:35:48.

been subject to atrocities dver since. And I think it is very

:35:49.:35:54.

important that the world dods not forget just how evil Daesh has been

:35:55.:35:59.

in the extremism to which they have gone in punishing, or killing those

:36:00.:36:06.

who happen not to accept thd perversion that they believd in

:36:07.:36:15.

Connor militia has been relhed on to help defeat the death cult that

:36:16.:36:18.

concerns have been raised on the involvement of Shia militias in

:36:19.:36:28.

liberating Mosul based on things that happened while vibrating

:36:29.:36:38.

Falluja. Gunn it is a very legitimate concern, rooted not just

:36:39.:36:42.

in some of the earlier oper`tions but of course in earlier conflicts

:36:43.:36:48.

and these were assurances that I pressed for and examined very

:36:49.:36:53.

closely in my recent visit. There are red lines drawn as to which

:36:54.:36:58.

units are allowed to go where as in settlement operation begins. And all

:36:59.:37:06.

I can say is that everybody in Baghdad and the Sunnis and Shia

:37:07.:37:10.

members of the Iraqi governlent are very much aware of the need at the

:37:11.:37:16.

end of this operation in wh`t is essentially a cine city but not

:37:17.:37:22.

entirely, the need to have done this in a way that gives the majority

:37:23.:37:27.

Sunnis the conference to return to their city and knowledge thdy will

:37:28.:37:31.

be to live safely there thereafter. -- confidence.

:37:32.:37:37.

As the offensive continues ht is likely that many Daesh fighters will

:37:38.:37:44.

try to blend in with the local civilian population. Can thd

:37:45.:37:46.

Secretary of State tell the house whether any specialist training can

:37:47.:37:50.

be undertaken for the Peshmdrga and other forces to ensure that if that

:37:51.:37:54.

happens, that any terrorist atrocities that could emergd later

:37:55.:37:59.

on in the longer term from within civilian life are limited?

:38:00.:38:04.

That is an important point, we don't yet know no weather Daesh whll stand

:38:05.:38:11.

and fight or whether they whll try to melt away. All we know at the

:38:12.:38:16.

moment is that Mosul is a vdry well defended cities, preparations for

:38:17.:38:20.

its defence have gone on for as long as preparations for its ass`ult All

:38:21.:38:25.

the signs are that Daesh will defend it for some time. He makes ` valid

:38:26.:38:31.

point about the training, there are specialist units in the Irapi forces

:38:32.:38:36.

that are trained in this particular counterterrorism work and wd have

:38:37.:38:41.

every interest in making sure that the Daesh leadership in particular,

:38:42.:38:47.

as well as the rank-and-fild of the terrorists, are detained whdrever

:38:48.:38:51.

possible. Is accessible ground offenshve will

:38:52.:38:57.

require huge improvement in the morale and fighting spirit of Iraqi

:38:58.:39:02.

forces. What Porter is the TK handed to allies made in making th`t

:39:03.:39:06.

improvement to their morale, and is he confident he can continud this

:39:07.:39:11.

work so that Daesh has no rdspite and no chance to re-establish

:39:12.:39:14.

itself? I was impressed by the confhdence of

:39:15.:39:20.

Iraqi commanders on my most recent visit compared with their approach

:39:21.:39:24.

to all this, say, a year ago. They have been encouraged by the relative

:39:25.:39:29.

ease with which cities and towns along the Euphrates River V`lley

:39:30.:39:35.

were liberated and certainlx a few weeks ago, they were very mtch

:39:36.:39:40.

looking forward to the Mosul campaign, regarding it as something

:39:41.:39:44.

that is difficult but doabld. They have that confidence. The Iraqi

:39:45.:39:50.

troops that I have seen being trained by our own forces are a very

:39:51.:39:55.

different army to the one that first flight in front of the Daesh advance

:39:56.:40:05.

in the spring and summer of 201 . Festival, I would like to whsh our

:40:06.:40:08.

Armed Forces a safe and successful campaign. We have heard that to a

:40:09.:40:13.

million refugees or civilians may flee Mosul, many of them chhldren

:40:14.:40:18.

who will have been deprived of education, suffered the

:40:19.:40:21.

psychological impact of warfare and in the case of young teenagdrs,

:40:22.:40:26.

indeed, may be screened by the Iraqi forces as they come out. Wh`t

:40:27.:40:30.

ability does the UK Governmdnt have on the ground directly to monitor

:40:31.:40:35.

the safety, education and hdalth of young children?

:40:36.:40:41.

Certainly the cancelling of children and child protection will bd central

:40:42.:40:46.

to the work of the Internathonal development Department -- the

:40:47.:40:50.

counselling of children. Adtlts the unaided Nations programme after the

:40:51.:40:55.

liberation of Mosul. -- and also the United Nations programme. This is a

:40:56.:40:59.

military assault on a very large city, it is likely to be a war zone

:41:00.:41:03.

for some weeks and months ahead The Iraqi forces have done the best to

:41:04.:41:08.

warn of the population of what lies ahead but this will be diffhcult and

:41:09.:41:14.

they will make every effort to protect the civilian population from

:41:15.:41:25.

the assault itself. As chairman of the all-partx group

:41:26.:41:30.

the Kurdistan region, can I thank the honourable member for B`rrow in

:41:31.:41:34.

Furness for bringing this qtestion and visiting the region, and can I

:41:35.:41:37.

personally thank my former colleagues in the Royal Air Force

:41:38.:41:42.

for their service? Can I ask the Secretary of State, in terms of

:41:43.:41:47.

military support to the Peshmerga, that is ongoing, but can he please

:41:48.:41:52.

update on what rehabilitation and medical support there might be for

:41:53.:41:56.

the Peshmerga, particularly bearing in mind the wonderful facilhty at

:41:57.:42:00.

Headley Court for any injurdd Peshmerga fighters.

:42:01.:42:04.

He is right to pay tribute to the Royal Air Force, we have totched on

:42:05.:42:09.

the role of the British Armx. Over the last two years since thd House

:42:10.:42:12.

gave authority for strikes hn Iraq we have seen the most intense

:42:13.:42:19.

campaign is being managed bx the Royal Air Force from both Akrotiri

:42:20.:42:22.

and other bases in the Gulf at a tempo we have not seen sincd the

:42:23.:42:27.

first Gulf War. I know the house would like to pay tribute not simply

:42:28.:42:31.

to the pilots who fly the planes but to the huge back-up operation

:42:32.:42:35.

sitting behind them. His particular point and medical

:42:36.:42:41.

support, perhaps he will allow me to return to him.

:42:42.:42:44.

The Secretary of State is absolutely right to stress that this is an

:42:45.:42:48.

Iraqi led campaign, that our Armed Forces are there because it will

:42:49.:42:51.

make material difference to our own safety here. On that basis can he

:42:52.:42:55.

tell us what he can do and we can all do to ensure that peopld in this

:42:56.:43:00.

country realise that this is a campaign that we are engaged in not

:43:01.:43:04.

because it is a war against Islam but because it is a war being taken

:43:05.:43:15.

to support democratically elected Muslim government against those who

:43:16.:43:18.

would prefer that Government for their own barbaric ends.

:43:19.:43:23.

We all have to continue to remind our constituents as to why we got

:43:24.:43:29.

involved back in the summer of 914, of 2014. The horrors inflicted on

:43:30.:43:35.

hostages, the barbarity of treatment of women, of gay people in Daesh

:43:36.:43:43.

areas and the indiscriminatd slaughter they have inflictdd, as we

:43:44.:43:48.

have seen in Western Europe on people whether they shared the

:43:49.:43:52.

Islamic faith or not. We have to remind people of why we are there.

:43:53.:43:57.

And then I think we have to do much more to support moderate Islam in

:43:58.:44:05.

some of the good work being done in this country and elsewhere,

:44:06.:44:08.

programmes run here, progralmes being run in other countries

:44:09.:44:12.

including Saudi Arabia about how we de-radicalisation 's who might be

:44:13.:44:16.

tempted to join this kind of extremist terrorism future.

:44:17.:44:24.

I welcome the start of this operation but, of course, it is

:44:25.:44:27.

worth bearing in mind that ht could turn into a firefight in a large

:44:28.:44:31.

urban area with an absolutely fanatical enemy with absolutely no

:44:32.:44:36.

respect at all for human rights law. How satisfied is the Secret`ry of

:44:37.:44:39.

State that the forces taking part have the ability to conduct the

:44:40.:44:43.

operation according to currdnt rules of engagement and that meastres will

:44:44.:44:47.

be in place allowing civili`ns to flee but make sure that those

:44:48.:44:50.

colleagues in Daesh will also be identified and captured? -- those

:44:51.:44:58.

cowards in Daesh? He is right to warn them that this will be a

:44:59.:45:02.

firefight, a series of firefights. I have been at pains to indic`te that

:45:03.:45:07.

this will be difficult in a very crowded urban area. Inevitably there

:45:08.:45:15.

will be damage and no doubt civilian casualties as well. So far `s rules

:45:16.:45:23.

of engagement are concerned, the Iraqi Government has issued the

:45:24.:45:27.

coalition that its troops are bound by the rules of internation`l

:45:28.:45:32.

humanitarian law, the Genev` conventions, just as Western forces

:45:33.:45:35.

are and, indeed, some of th`t has been part of the training that we

:45:36.:45:45.

have been able to offer. The UNHCR Iraq representative was

:45:46.:45:50.

reported on the BBC as saying a few days ago, if the situation hs

:45:51.:45:53.

involved in a proper way, everything will be controlled by the Iraqi

:45:54.:45:58.

army. People will not be allowed to flee Mosul. What will peopld will

:45:59.:46:07.

not be allowed to flee Mosul mean in practice? It is already quite

:46:08.:46:11.

difficult for the civilian population to get out of Mosul. I

:46:12.:46:24.

can reassure him that the Iraqi Government is ready to support

:46:25.:46:31.

civilians who can't get out of Mosul to get them too much safer `reas won

:46:32.:46:36.

away from the front line, and the United Nations, as he said, will be

:46:37.:46:41.

working with its agencies to make sure that help is brought forward to

:46:42.:46:44.

those civilians who escape `s quickly as possible.

:46:45.:46:51.

Television news coverage yesterday seems to suggest firstly th`t the

:46:52.:46:55.

balance of forces between the Iraqi army and the Peshmergas on the one

:46:56.:46:59.

hand and Daesh on the other was something like ten to one and that,

:47:00.:47:04.

secondly, the Iraqi army had access to very heavy armour whereas the

:47:05.:47:10.

Peshmerga did not. Both these things correct or was I not paying enough

:47:11.:47:17.

attention? I think he pays puite a lot of attention to most thhngs and

:47:18.:47:20.

I would not want to accuse him of inattention. I am not sure of the

:47:21.:47:27.

exact percentages that he qtotes. Having visited that area recently

:47:28.:47:34.

and been out with the Peshmdrga and the training they receive, they have

:47:35.:47:42.

sufficient equipment to participate in this particular operation and a

:47:43.:47:49.

well-defined role within it. I would like to associate myself with the

:47:50.:47:53.

comments in support of the @rmed Forces, but also sent my support and

:47:54.:47:57.

prayers to the people of Mosul who will be living through the

:47:58.:48:02.

operation. After Ramadi, thd industrial uses IEDs to unddrmine

:48:03.:48:06.

peoples lives as they tried to move back into their homes came hnto use.

:48:07.:48:10.

But had huge human casualtids associated with it from within the

:48:11.:48:13.

Iraqi forces and we have very specialist expertise in that. The

:48:14.:48:19.

scale of Mosul, with 1.7 million people, we can only imagine what

:48:20.:48:22.

they are doing. What additional support we giving two Iraqis in

:48:23.:48:27.

terms of training to deal whth the counter IED operation?

:48:28.:48:33.

This is a much larger dimension to this conflict than previous ones. We

:48:34.:48:39.

have seen industrial scale tse of IED in cities like Ramadi and

:48:40.:48:43.

elsewhere, where IED has bedn built into the walls of houses, concealed

:48:44.:48:51.

in rubble, put under the desks in schools and colleges. It is

:48:52.:48:57.

something that we have had to help the Iraqi army learn how to deal

:48:58.:49:02.

with. It is a huge part of the training effort we have put in and

:49:03.:49:09.

the building partner capacity centres and the four them across

:49:10.:49:15.

Iraq has been dedicated to counter IED training, helping troops to

:49:16.:49:19.

recognise different types of IED, to recognise traps that maybe laid

:49:20.:49:26.

within IED devices and helphng them when they have identified the IED to

:49:27.:49:32.

clear it. The previous Government pushed a

:49:33.:49:40.

sectarian agenda against thd Sony 's which led to the rise of Dadsh.

:49:41.:49:45.

Given the composition of Mosul being predominantly Sunni, Turkey has

:49:46.:49:54.

indicated it will be sending troops into Mosul to ensure the protection

:49:55.:49:59.

of Sunni rights? We want to make sure that Sunni rights are protected

:50:00.:50:06.

and it is incumbent on the Hraqi government which has Sunni `nd Shia

:50:07.:50:09.

and Kurdish representation hn it to ensure that all parts of Ir`q are

:50:10.:50:19.

fully protected. It is the `im of the Government and the reforms that

:50:20.:50:21.

it is driving through to devolve more power to the Governors

:50:22.:50:27.

themselves, to the governor of the province in which Mosul sets, to

:50:28.:50:34.

ensure that he and the local administration can provide that kind

:50:35.:50:41.

of free assurance. It is crhtical to the campaign that Sunnis in Iraq

:50:42.:50:45.

understand that the Iraqi forces are for them all, for them as mtch as

:50:46.:50:53.

for the Shias. There am surd the Defence Secretary will agred with me

:50:54.:50:57.

that one of the positive developments is working togdther of

:50:58.:51:01.

the Peshmerga and the Iraqi forces against Daesh for the first time. I

:51:02.:51:07.

wonder if he could suggest ways in which that constructive co-operation

:51:08.:51:09.

might be continued into othdr operations?

:51:10.:51:14.

I think that cooperation is essential, both for the libdration

:51:15.:51:18.

of Mosul, the city which sits very near to the Kurdish region, but also

:51:19.:51:23.

for the future of Iraq. I al encouraged by the recent

:51:24.:51:25.

negotiations over the distrhbution of the oil revenue and some of the

:51:26.:51:32.

other accommodations that h`ve been reached between the Prime Mhnister

:51:33.:51:40.

of that area and the Prime Linister in Baghdad, which I hope will bode

:51:41.:51:43.

well for the integrity of Iraq as well as the future of the Ktrdish

:51:44.:51:51.

and Iraqi populations. I also support our Government smack

:51:52.:51:56.

role in this operation. There are already reports that Daesh `re

:51:57.:52:00.

threatening to use civilians as human shields and execute anyone

:52:01.:52:05.

trying to flee. Can the Secretary of State confirm that this is `ccurate,

:52:06.:52:12.

and can anything be done to try to counter this particular forl of

:52:13.:52:16.

barbarism? I have seen reports along those

:52:17.:52:21.

lines of Daesh being prepardd to put women and children into milhtary

:52:22.:52:26.

buildings in order to prevent them becoming a target. We are ddaling

:52:27.:52:30.

with the ruthless enemy that has not hesitated over to agree as to kill

:52:31.:52:35.

anybody, women, children of fellow Muslims. There is very little we can

:52:36.:52:43.

do to control that other th`n to show our absolute determination

:52:44.:52:47.

whatever the cost, whatever the difficulty, to deal with Dadsh and

:52:48.:52:49.

get it out of Iraq altogethdr. I will take the honourable lady

:52:50.:53:03.

first. Tomorrow, October 19, the Public Accounts Committee h`s summon

:53:04.:53:06.

witnesses from the Department of committees and local governlent to

:53:07.:53:11.

explain reports that the troubled families programme has not been

:53:12.:53:14.

achieving its aims. Since October five my committee has been `sking

:53:15.:53:20.

the development to release six evaluation reports and after much

:53:21.:53:24.

delay they were finally published at 6p yesterday. These reports amount

:53:25.:53:29.

to 800 pages of evidence and I'm very concerned that in this tardy

:53:30.:53:35.

release of this important information the government hs trying

:53:36.:53:39.

to obfuscate proper Parliamdntary scrutiny of an important and

:53:40.:53:43.

flagship government programle and the money spent on it. I sedk your

:53:44.:53:49.

support, and guidance, about how we can ensure that ministers are

:53:50.:53:53.

reminded of the importance of providing proper information to this

:53:54.:53:57.

house so we can carry out otr task for citizens and taxpayers hn

:53:58.:54:04.

scrutinising government bushness. I thank the lady for her Gazzh in

:54:05.:54:08.

providing me advance notice of her point of order. There is a clear

:54:09.:54:11.

expectation that government departments should cooperatd fully

:54:12.:54:15.

with select committee enquiries not least enquiries of the commhttee of

:54:16.:54:19.

Public accounts and should furnish information in a timely fashion

:54:20.:54:25.

This does not appear to havd happened in this case. If for any

:54:26.:54:31.

reason there is a problem the Department should really get this to

:54:32.:54:34.

the committee said can is so wishes adjust its schedule. I am stre her

:54:35.:54:40.

concerns have been heard on the Treasury bench and will be conveyed

:54:41.:54:43.

to the relevant ministers that meanwhile the honourable lady has

:54:44.:54:46.

made her point clearly and she has done so on the record. Quitd how the

:54:47.:54:50.

honourable lady and her comlittee wished now to proceed in thd light

:54:51.:55:00.

of the untimely provision of a vast tranche of information is of course

:55:01.:55:04.

for them to consider. On thd whole one would expect the committee would

:55:05.:55:09.

undertake its work without `lso considering chamber devices for

:55:10.:55:17.

scrutiny of ministers. The two however are not automatically

:55:18.:55:24.

necessarily mutually exclushve. So if at some point either the

:55:25.:55:29.

honourable lady or any other member wishes to probe a minister hn the

:55:30.:55:36.

chamber on the substance of an issue or the reason for the fears and

:55:37.:55:39.

excessive delay, it is open to a member to seek that. I make no

:55:40.:55:45.

promises to whether it would be successful but it is open to

:55:46.:55:51.

members. But the key point hs that committees of the government to

:55:52.:55:54.

account and it is up to the government to cooperate with the

:55:55.:55:58.

committee, not only in accordance with the letter, but in accordance

:55:59.:56:07.

with the spirit. I seek your guidance on information provided to

:56:08.:56:12.

MPs in written answers regarding military matters. It is customary

:56:13.:56:16.

and necessary of course not to provide information about some

:56:17.:56:19.

security matters to members. No doubt that is why in answer to a

:56:20.:56:22.

written question about whether the UK Government would display online

:56:23.:56:28.

the flight paths of Russian planes over Syria was told that information

:56:29.:56:32.

can be made available for sdcurity reasons. But could you advise me

:56:33.:56:36.

whether I can challenge this ruling given that this information is

:56:37.:56:41.

relatively available inform`tion for commercial planes, the Russhans know

:56:42.:56:44.

they are being monitored and indeed they have to be to avoid conflict

:56:45.:56:51.

over Syrian airspace. , I h`d no advance notice of this and H know

:56:52.:56:57.

the honourable gentleman is inclined to invest the web as I don't possess

:56:58.:57:00.

that I'm disinclined to respond substantively on the matter at the

:57:01.:57:05.

moment. But my advice is th`t at this stage his best course hs to

:57:06.:57:12.

write to the Secretary of State and the driver to elicit a written

:57:13.:57:17.

reply, which you can then study and evaluate, or alternatively to ride

:57:18.:57:22.

to the Secretary of State and request a meeting to discuss this

:57:23.:57:27.

matter. If that route does not avail him then he can come back to the

:57:28.:57:34.

chamber and also I have a strong hunch he will do so. If there are no

:57:35.:57:37.

further points of order the appetite has been satisfied at least for now.

:57:38.:57:41.

We come to the ten minute c`ll. , I ask about the bill to bring in the

:57:42.:57:56.

central reporting of agency staff to make provision for the central

:57:57.:58:00.

reporting and recording of `bsence from work of permanent NHS

:58:01.:58:08.

employees. The NHS has a budget of ?160.4 billion, this is divhded

:58:09.:58:15.

between NHS providers including 11 NHS trusts in England. Incltding Wye

:58:16.:58:22.

Valley NHS Trust which administers my constituency in North

:58:23.:58:27.

Herefordshire. The NHS Trust budget was 183.67 million pounds, but most

:58:28.:58:33.

of the NHS Trust expenditurd is on staffing. Last year it costs Wye

:58:34.:58:42.

Valley trust ?115.4 million or 3% of the expenditure. This includes

:58:43.:58:46.

all staff, permanent, bank `nd agency. Agency staff cost more than

:58:47.:58:51.

permanent staff, directly elployed by the NHS, because private

:58:52.:58:58.

companies dictate what publhc NHS pays for them. The government is

:58:59.:59:01.

working to limit this costing the NHS by introducing a cap on fees

:59:02.:59:09.

paid to agency workers. I w`nt to support and congratulate thd

:59:10.:59:13.

government in its work to lhmit the increasing privatisation of NHS

:59:14.:59:16.

because I'm against the principle that private agencies can control

:59:17.:59:22.

NHS spending but I don't on the NHS open for abuse which can be the case

:59:23.:59:26.

under our current system. I propose that a database of all workdrs

:59:27.:59:30.

within the NHS, agency, dirdct employees, exists, and takes note of

:59:31.:59:36.

when they are working on cl`iming sick pay. This data already exists

:59:37.:59:44.

within NHS bodies and I would like it to benefit the whole villages.

:59:45.:59:48.

There is too much reliance on locum and agency workers. We although

:59:49.:59:53.

that's our NHS staff are sole of the most hard-working individual

:59:54.:59:56.

striving to keep communities healthier and safer there is a

:59:57.:00:01.

struggle to fill certain gaps, either due to lack of indivhduals or

:00:02.:00:06.

due to lack of specific skills. This is a particular problem in rural

:00:07.:00:10.

areas where there are just fewer people with specific skills and some

:00:11.:00:13.

NHS bodies require. This is compounded by the fact that those

:00:14.:00:18.

who are qualified can becomd agency workers and do the same job for more

:00:19.:00:25.

money. This leaves the NHS dmploying more agency staff in turn. Between

:00:26.:00:30.

February and April the Wye Valley trust for bad two health care

:00:31.:00:38.

assistants and over five agdncy nurses and used agency workdrs for

:00:39.:00:44.

an average of 1500 shifts every month. An average of ?746,000 a

:00:45.:00:54.

month, ?8.9 million a year on agency staff for the two categories alone.

:00:55.:00:59.

cap the amount paid to agencies for cap the amount paid to agencies for

:01:00.:01:04.

their staff is so important. The agency worked cost ?3.3 billion last

:01:05.:01:12.

year and although and so far this year the price cap a safe ?300

:01:13.:01:17.

million as the Minister of State for Public health said in response to a

:01:18.:01:21.

question on September 12, although I have heard that this is now much

:01:22.:01:30.

closer to ?650 million. In order to support the excellent work the we

:01:31.:01:33.

should require agency staff to be centrally registered on the NHS

:01:34.:01:37.

accordingly, and particularly including their sick pay daxs

:01:38.:01:41.

because agency workers do not have their information detailed on the

:01:42.:01:46.

central NHS. Staff can be dhrectly employed within the trust and also

:01:47.:01:52.

registered with an agency. These two employers do not share information

:01:53.:01:54.

about their workers even though the agency workers are based within an

:01:55.:02:03.

NHS organisation. People sax not enough staff within the NHS but it

:02:04.:02:06.

is clear there are if we can then properly. This also demonstrates

:02:07.:02:11.

which areas we will need to focus on when training and resources so that

:02:12.:02:15.

we can train the right people going forward. The vast majority of

:02:16.:02:22.

workers who are employed by both such organisations are hard,working

:02:23.:02:25.

and honest but there are always some who seek to abuse the systel. In

:02:26.:02:30.

2015 the nurse who worked for an NHS hospital trust was struck off after

:02:31.:02:35.

making ?10,000 working agency shifts while off work due to sickndss. This

:02:36.:02:43.

is not alone in case. These cases cost the NHS not just through

:02:44.:02:46.

fraudulent sick pay but also to the public purse and we lose th`t

:02:47.:02:52.

individual. So the NHS is aware of this abuse of the payroll, `nd sick

:02:53.:02:58.

leave fraud, and has put out leaflets members to be award.

:02:59.:03:03.

However without essential sxstem for data sharing, between bodies, the

:03:04.:03:08.

organisations can only rely on hearsay to report abuse of the

:03:09.:03:11.

system. This is of course a good starting point but it doesn't

:03:12.:03:16.

eliminate the risk of fraudtlent activities and we need this money to

:03:17.:03:20.

be saved for patients. It is a lack of communication between bodies that

:03:21.:03:26.

the NHS needs to rectify and we need to combat those are taking `dvantage

:03:27.:03:29.

of the system by making the information more accessible to

:03:30.:03:33.

employees about their emploxees so that they are paid fairly and the

:03:34.:03:39.

NHS does not suffer unnecessarily. This bill would support the

:03:40.:03:42.

government 's hard work in reducing nursery costs to the NHS by making

:03:43.:03:47.

it harder for those taking `dvantage of the system to do so. The bill

:03:48.:03:54.

would register on agency st`ff used across the NHS, which is kept

:03:55.:03:57.

centrally, and this register will include those staff who are off sick

:03:58.:04:03.

and claiming sick pay. If this data is called them the abuse can be

:04:04.:04:09.

spotted. The small cost in pulling agency data is far outweighdd by the

:04:10.:04:13.

risk of abuse and lack of control. All of this data after all `lready

:04:14.:04:18.

exists, it is simply a case of sharing it. NHS employees h`ve their

:04:19.:04:24.

sick pay is stored and reported along and for the Wye Vallex trust

:04:25.:04:29.

last year it was just 4.3%. By the same yardstick agency workers paid

:04:30.:04:33.

by a public body and should have their sick pay stored and shared as

:04:34.:04:37.

well. There is no better wax of managing this enormous agency bill

:04:38.:04:41.

banned by ensuring the data is used wisely. People talk against

:04:42.:04:47.

privatisation of the NHS yet this is exactly what will happen if the NHS

:04:48.:04:51.

loses control of its staff requirements. It is the agencies who

:04:52.:04:57.

are providing the staff are patients need for their safety. This must be

:04:58.:05:01.

controlled otherwise we will never be able to achieve the worthy target

:05:02.:05:05.

of getting the right page for the right people doing the right jobs,

:05:06.:05:11.

and our NHS staff deserve no less. I beg to move. The question is that

:05:12.:05:19.

the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill? The Ayes had yet.

:05:20.:05:31.

Who will prepare and bring hn the bill? I will. LAUGHTER

:05:32.:05:44.

The lonesome cowboy. NHS st`ff reporting and registration bill We

:05:45.:06:08.

now come to the motion in the name of the Secretary of State for

:06:09.:06:13.

culture media and sport rel`ting to broadcasting. I will call hhm to

:06:14.:06:20.

move the amendment formerly at the end of the debate and I now call the

:06:21.:06:23.

secretary of state to move the motion. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I

:06:24.:06:33.

start by an apology. I am afraid that although I am delighted to be

:06:34.:06:36.

here today for the debate I will have to leave at some point this

:06:37.:06:41.

afternoon because we have as you will know a magnificent celdbration

:06:42.:06:45.

of our Olympic and Paralymphc athletes... And whilst it w`s an

:06:46.:06:51.

enormous pleasure to be in Manchester yesterday I also am

:06:52.:06:53.

looking forward to seeing them again today.

:06:54.:06:57.

I hope you and the House will forgive me for that. Can I `lso

:06:58.:07:03.

welcome the right honourabld gentleman to his place, honourable

:07:04.:07:08.

gentleman, I will get that right. It is a great pleasure to see him

:07:09.:07:12.

opposite me and I am sure wd will enjoy many happy debates across the

:07:13.:07:16.

dispatch box. Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC is the

:07:17.:07:22.

best broadcaster in the world. It is widely recognised as search

:07:23.:07:26.

throughout the world. Despite what some people would have the world

:07:27.:07:33.

believe, this Government believes that the BBC is one of our greatest

:07:34.:07:38.

institutions and must be nurtured and cherished. We receive more than

:07:39.:07:42.

190 submissions for our consultation, which shows how deep

:07:43.:07:48.

the people care about the BBC - 190,000. It is quite right that the

:07:49.:07:54.

changes we make to the BBC strengthen it, secure its ftnding,

:07:55.:08:00.

protected, decouple the charter from the electoral cycle and enstre that

:08:01.:08:03.

the BBC cannot only survive but thrive.

:08:04.:08:08.

Of course. I thank her for giving way. She has talked about providing

:08:09.:08:12.

appropriate funding for the BBC making sure it is funded well, but

:08:13.:08:17.

at the same time the Governlent has imposed the costs of the ovdr 7 s

:08:18.:08:23.

licence fee on the BBC and has also imposed the costs of overse`s

:08:24.:08:27.

monitoring for the security services and the Foreign Office on the BBC,

:08:28.:08:32.

which are inappropriate. Wh`t did she had to say to that?

:08:33.:08:36.

Can I thank the honourable gentleman, who I very much dnjoyed

:08:37.:08:40.

sparring with over the disp`tch box as well. I will, to the funding

:08:41.:08:46.

later, but I believe that this funding settlement is a strong

:08:47.:08:50.

funding settlement which puts the BBC on a sustainable footing with an

:08:51.:08:55.

inflationary increase in thd licence fee. Of course.

:08:56.:09:01.

The former arts Minister dods not, as he told us last time when we were

:09:02.:09:06.

debating this matter. Lots of us in this house think the idea that you

:09:07.:09:10.

should suddenly force the BBC to pay for the free television licdnces is

:09:11.:09:15.

a complete disgrace. That's right, Chris exhalathon the

:09:16.:09:21.

BBC have agreed to it through negotiations and discussion, and are

:09:22.:09:24.

confident that this puts thd BBC on a sustainable long-term footing One

:09:25.:09:29.

more intervention, then I whll make progress.

:09:30.:09:32.

I must correct my honourabld friend, it is not to pay for the frde TV

:09:33.:09:40.

licence, it is surely to pax for a Conservative festal commitmdnt?

:09:41.:09:43.

The funding settlement is to pay for the very best BBC that we all want

:09:44.:09:47.

to see, and I am absolutely confident that this funding

:09:48.:09:51.

settlement gives it that. I will make some progress, if he whll

:09:52.:09:55.

forgive me, and come to funding again shortly, but I want to put on

:09:56.:10:01.

the record that the just chdck - draft charter we see before us is

:10:02.:10:06.

contained some small technical omissions and errors, we will

:10:07.:10:09.

publish a revised charter shortly which includes all of those points

:10:10.:10:14.

which I know some honourabld and write honourable members have picked

:10:15.:10:19.

up. The BBC royal charter agreement will support a BBC that makds and

:10:20.:10:24.

broadcasts world-class contdnt. Provides impartial high-quality

:10:25.:10:28.

news, is independent, transparent and accountable and works whth

:10:29.:10:34.

rather than against the rest of the United Kingdom creative sector. The

:10:35.:10:38.

BBC director-general Lord H`ll hailed the draft charter as the

:10:39.:10:43.

right outcome for the BBC and its role as a creative power for

:10:44.:10:48.

Britain. Madam Deputy Speakdr, the new Royal charter will make the BBC

:10:49.:10:54.

is stronger in a number of ways It will increase BBC independence,

:10:55.:10:58.

improve its regulation, makd it more transparent and accountable to

:10:59.:11:02.

licence fee payers and make it better reflect the whole of the UK.

:11:03.:11:07.

First of all, the BBC will become more independent. I cannot resist. I

:11:08.:11:15.

will. I am most grateful. She just said that the new Royal Charter will

:11:16.:11:23.

maintain the BBC's independdnce but if I could draw her attention to

:11:24.:11:28.

paragraph four of the draft agreement which she laid before the

:11:29.:11:33.

House last month, it says bx entering into this agreement the BBC

:11:34.:11:41.

has assumed obligations restricting to some extent its future freedom of

:11:42.:11:45.

action. How can that possibly be consistent with what she has just

:11:46.:11:49.

said about its independence? I think when the honourable lady

:11:50.:11:53.

looks at the charter as a whole she will see that the BBC becomds more

:11:54.:11:58.

independent. It is very easx to take one line from a charter and try to

:11:59.:12:03.

demonstrate something opposhte. As a whole, this charter makes the BBC

:12:04.:12:08.

more independent. I will make progress. A majority nine ott of 14

:12:09.:12:13.

of the members of the new Unity board will be appointed by the BBC.

:12:14.:12:19.

This contrasts with past appointments by governments of every

:12:20.:12:24.

member of the BBC governing board. I will make some progress and come

:12:25.:12:28.

back to this in a second. The new director-general will be edhtor in

:12:29.:12:31.

chief at her final responsibility for individual decisions on the

:12:32.:12:36.

BBC's editorial matters I creative output. Tissue not understand the

:12:37.:12:43.

difference between appointmdnts to a unitary board with overall dditorial

:12:44.:12:47.

control over the BBC and appointment to a system where trustees or

:12:48.:12:54.

governors which do not have such editorial appointments? -- does she

:12:55.:12:59.

not understand? I do understand that point, but I think this givds more

:13:00.:13:03.

independence to the BBC. And the fact that the majority of dhrectors

:13:04.:13:07.

will be appointed by the BBC makes it clear that the Government wants

:13:08.:13:11.

the BBC to be independent, to be strong and to succeed.

:13:12.:13:17.

On that point, which she accept that the director-general remains the

:13:18.:13:22.

editor in chief, the Royal tnitary board is open to scrutinise

:13:23.:13:27.

decisions that the director,general has made? He exactly sums up the

:13:28.:13:33.

position. A longer 11 year royal Charter will separate chartdr

:13:34.:13:39.

renewal from the electoral cycle, something welcomes widely. Ladam

:13:40.:13:41.

Deputy Speaker, I reiterate the point that the mid-term revhew after

:13:42.:13:46.

six years will be a health check and not another charter review hn all

:13:47.:13:51.

but name. It is surely emindntly sensible to check how effectively

:13:52.:13:54.

new arrangements are working before 11 years have gone by? Moreover

:13:55.:13:59.

article 57 of the charter states that the review must not consider

:14:00.:14:04.

the public purposes of the BBC or the licence fee funding moddl for

:14:05.:14:12.

the P Reed of the charter. H thank the Secretary of State for giving

:14:13.:14:15.

way. Would she agree that over this 11 year Charter period we whll see a

:14:16.:14:19.

further huge change in viewhng habits from traditional viewing to

:14:20.:14:24.

further OnDemand and online viewing? Further to that, which he considered

:14:25.:14:27.

a criminal is in non-payment of the television licence for viewhng the

:14:28.:14:31.

iPlayer so that over this pdriod of charter renewal, and widely

:14:32.:14:35.

supporting that the decriminalisation of nonpaylent

:14:36.:14:41.

would be widely welcomed? I know he has campaigned strongly on this

:14:42.:14:46.

issue and I understand the point he makes.

:14:47.:14:50.

If I could go through some further points about the new charter, Madam

:14:51.:14:56.

Deputy Speaker, the BBC will be regulated more effectively tnder

:14:57.:15:00.

this charter. The charter and agreements set out of compost back

:15:01.:15:03.

new role as the BBC's indepdndent regulator. Of cotton will monitor

:15:04.:15:09.

and review how well the BBC meets its mission and... Hold the BBC to

:15:10.:15:18.

account over market impact on public value and consider relevant

:15:19.:15:23.

complaints from viewers, listeners and other stakeholders were

:15:24.:15:26.

complaints are not satisfied with resolution by the BBC. -- where

:15:27.:15:34.

compliments are not satisfidd. Given the high number of extra roles

:15:35.:15:38.

and duties being taken by Ofcom can she undertake to the house to make

:15:39.:15:43.

sure that Ofcom is properly remunerated and given enough

:15:44.:15:47.

resource to do this extra job that they are now going to have to do?

:15:48.:15:53.

Cobb have been asked about this point. They have the abilithes and

:15:54.:16:00.

competence to do this. This is the result of extensive negotiations

:16:01.:16:05.

between the BBC, Ofcom and others and I am confident that thex have

:16:06.:16:11.

the resources to be able to fulfil their obligations. It is

:16:12.:16:16.

fundamentally important that the BBC should be impartial, somethhng

:16:17.:16:20.

colleagues have been keen to impress upon me in the run-up to and

:16:21.:16:23.

following the EU referendum. While it is not for the Government to

:16:24.:16:27.

arbitrate on such matters, H will ensure that Ofcom never forgets what

:16:28.:16:32.

vitally important duty it h`s in this regard. These are big new

:16:33.:16:36.

responsibilities for Ofcom, which will rightly consult with industry

:16:37.:16:40.

on its new operating framework for the BBC next year. It will `lso be

:16:41.:16:45.

Ofcom's job to set regulatory requirements for the BBC to be

:16:46.:16:50.

distinctive, schedule two fde agreements make sure that it is the

:16:51.:16:54.

BBC's output and services as a whole that need to be distinctive, so

:16:55.:16:59.

concerned that this is a wax for the Government to interfere with

:17:00.:17:02.

specific programmes are tot`lly unfounded. Nor are those provisions

:17:03.:17:06.

in the charter that place ndw duties on the BBC to consider its hmpact on

:17:07.:17:11.

the market about reducing the BBC's role, per se.

:17:12.:17:18.

I will, yes. I would be verx interested in her personal

:17:19.:17:22.

perspective on what is disthnctive in this context means? Does it mean

:17:23.:17:32.

distinct from other channels or distinct from international

:17:33.:17:36.

broadcasters? Can she qualify what distinctive means? I think ht means

:17:37.:17:41.

all those things. I think it means that the BBC is a unique and

:17:42.:17:45.

distinctive broadcaster offdring a range of output across television

:17:46.:17:51.

and radio appealing to a wide variety of the population and

:17:52.:17:54.

offering programming that shmply would not be delivered in a

:17:55.:18:00.

commercial context. I will. I'm grateful to the

:18:01.:18:05.

Secretary of State for giving way. One of the distinctness and one of

:18:06.:18:13.

the advantages from the BBC is the ability to take forward polhcy such

:18:14.:18:16.

as commitment to minority l`nguage broadcasting. Did she understand the

:18:17.:18:22.

concern felt among the excellent operation at BBC Alba that the

:18:23.:18:26.

framework agreement as currdntly drafted is not entirely to their

:18:27.:18:30.

advantage, that there is a need for that to be looked at again, in

:18:31.:18:35.

particular with regard to the funding source that that should

:18:36.:18:39.

continue to come from the BBC UK pot as part of a commitment across the

:18:40.:18:43.

whole of the UK to minority managers?

:18:44.:18:53.

Easy Alba is a surgery of the BBC. Charter and the framework sdt of

:18:54.:18:56.

clearly requirements on BBC Alba, but I would be very happy to meet

:18:57.:19:00.

with representatives from BBC Alba if they feel there is something that

:19:01.:19:06.

has not been considered, I feel from the conversations we had prdviously

:19:07.:19:09.

that those points have been addressed, but I will give way. I am

:19:10.:19:14.

very grateful. Would she agree with me that one of the most distinctive

:19:15.:19:21.

ways that the BBC does meet its output and probably closest to its

:19:22.:19:26.

public service requirement hs BBC local radio, which provides that

:19:27.:19:33.

there is focused and, I would argue, often unique output that is very

:19:34.:19:38.

valuable to many communities up and down the UK?

:19:39.:19:41.

I agree with my honourable friend that BBC local radio is a vdry

:19:42.:19:46.

important part of all of our local areas. I will give a plug for BBC

:19:47.:19:50.

radios still, I know they would be disappointed if I did not. ,- BBC

:19:51.:19:56.

Radio Stoke. I'm sure we all feel the same way about our local radio.

:19:57.:20:01.

The charter and the framework gives that regional focus and asstres that

:20:02.:20:06.

that is maintained. I will lake progress, I have taken a nulber of

:20:07.:20:09.

interventions and want make progress.

:20:10.:20:14.

Madam Deputy Speaker, we ard making the BBC more transparent and

:20:15.:20:18.

accountable. That is only rhght from an institution that receives so much

:20:19.:20:23.

public money and means so mtch to the public. Salaries of indhviduals

:20:24.:20:28.

who earned ?150,000 and above will be made public. There will be a

:20:29.:20:32.

full, fair and open competition for the post of chair of the new BBC

:20:33.:20:37.

board as well. The National Audit Office will become the BBC's

:20:38.:20:40.

financial auditor and be able to conduct value for money studies of

:20:41.:20:52.

the BBC's commercial could sit - subsidiaries. The NAL is held in

:20:53.:20:55.

very high regard and has extensive experience of scrutinising

:20:56.:20:56.

commercial and specialist organisations like Network Rail and

:20:57.:20:59.

the security services. Finally, the Government has listened cardfully to

:21:00.:21:02.

those that said that the BBC must better reflect and represent each of

:21:03.:21:07.

the home nations. They are rated. The charter provides for strength

:21:08.:21:11.

and public purpose, emphasising that the BBC has a central role hn the

:21:12.:21:17.

creative economy across the UK's nations and regions. Appointments of

:21:18.:21:20.

Nations members to the unit`ry board will need the agreement of the

:21:21.:21:24.

devolved government minister or Secretary of State for culttre in

:21:25.:21:27.

the case of the England member, and the charger to appear beford

:21:28.:21:34.

committees and lay their annual reports and accounts in the devolved

:21:35.:21:37.

legislatures. She has been very generous in giving way. She's

:21:38.:21:42.

commending BBC Radio Stoke, and I know local radio is hugely

:21:43.:21:46.

important. It is unfortunatd that we do not have BBC local radio in

:21:47.:21:50.

Wales, there is only one st`tion representing the whole of W`les BBC

:21:51.:21:57.

Radio Wales, along with the Welsh language service, and isn't it time

:21:58.:22:01.

we had those local radio services in the same way as England havd?

:22:02.:22:06.

Clearly that is a matter for the BBC. BBC Wales seems to havd a long

:22:07.:22:17.

and wide reach. It is clearly reaching areas outside of its normal

:22:18.:22:21.

remit. The BBC must fully rdflect the diverse nature of the UK.

:22:22.:22:28.

Diversity is enshrined in the public purposes. There are strengthened

:22:29.:22:31.

requirements around minoritx language provision. The charter will

:22:32.:22:35.

be considered by the Privy Council before the government seeks royal

:22:36.:22:39.

assent. We had an excellent debate in the other place last week. I am

:22:40.:22:43.

very pleased to have another opportunity to debate the world s

:22:44.:22:48.

finest broadcaster in this chamber. Our changes will secure the future

:22:49.:22:53.

of the BBC, strengthen it, give it unprecedented independence `nd make

:22:54.:22:57.

it more transparent, accountable and representative. This governlent

:22:58.:23:00.

believes in the BBC. I beg to move. The question is as on

:23:01.:23:06.

the order paper. Tom Watson. Thank you, Madal Deputy

:23:07.:23:12.

Speaker. I refer the House to my entry in the members registdr of

:23:13.:23:17.

interest and draw their attdntion to the fact I have only recently stood

:23:18.:23:20.

down as the vice chair of the all-party group for the BBC. Can I

:23:21.:23:27.

also say how much we are looking forward to working with the new

:23:28.:23:31.

Secretary of State and her team She was extremely generous and gave me a

:23:32.:23:35.

constructive dialogue when she was home Office minister and I hope we

:23:36.:23:38.

can continue the relationshhp in the new post. I would also very briefly

:23:39.:23:46.

like to thank my predecessors, the member for Luton North, who has

:23:47.:23:49.

shown he has not lost his tdnacity and energy for this policy `rea And

:23:50.:23:56.

my honourable friend, the mdmber for Garston and Halewood. The L`bour

:23:57.:24:03.

Party welcomes the fact that this Charter provides the BBC with the

:24:04.:24:09.

funding and security it needs, as it prepares to enter its second century

:24:10.:24:15.

of broadcasting. The BBC embodies those enduring British valuds of

:24:16.:24:20.

hard work, creativity, innovation and core operation. It helps to

:24:21.:24:24.

ensure Britain's voices heard around the world. It has informed `nd

:24:25.:24:30.

entertained countless millions of listeners, viewers and web tsers. It

:24:31.:24:35.

did so once again during thd summer with its truly exceptional coverage

:24:36.:24:40.

of the Olympics in Rio. I know the whole House will agree that we

:24:41.:24:43.

should acknowledge this on the day when we are celebrating our

:24:44.:24:48.

achievements of our athletes by throwing that fantastic party in

:24:49.:24:52.

Trafalgar Square later todax. We welcome the charter. But we do have

:24:53.:24:57.

some misgivings, as the Minhster can see. It is about the

:24:58.:25:03.

responsibilities the BBC has been obliged to accept. In particular, we

:25:04.:25:07.

are extremely concerned abott the government's decision to force the

:25:08.:25:13.

BBC to meet the cost of providing free TV licences to the over 75s.

:25:14.:25:18.

This was done without meaningful public consultation and little

:25:19.:25:21.

parliamentary debate, and it was part of a deal made behind closed

:25:22.:25:25.

doors. I will give way. Can I congratulate

:25:26.:25:33.

him on his appointment as shadow Secretary of State and I am sure he

:25:34.:25:36.

will enjoy the job. When it comes to this imposition of the costs of over

:25:37.:25:44.

75 licenses, that was negothated at the same time as the charter was

:25:45.:25:48.

being negotiated. Does that not imply there was a degree of duress

:25:49.:25:54.

in making that decision? It is certainly not the most ideal of

:25:55.:25:57.

circumstances when you are negotiating for your surviv`l, is

:25:58.:26:02.

it? We are concerned about ht. We don't think there was a meaningful

:26:03.:26:08.

public consultation. And I hope those days were behind us. We feel

:26:09.:26:12.

very strongly that those arrangements cannot be allowed to

:26:13.:26:15.

happen again. This is the sdcond time, as my honourable friend has

:26:16.:26:20.

pointed out, the government has approached the deliberations with

:26:21.:26:26.

the BBC by placing a gun to it said. In 2010, the coalition government

:26:27.:26:30.

forced the BBC to take the cost of paying for the World Servicd. The

:26:31.:26:37.

government approached the -, those negotiations with the subtldty of a

:26:38.:26:41.

ram raider approaching a jewellery shop. It was described as a smash

:26:42.:26:47.

and grab raid. We expect th`t the next licence fee settlement will be

:26:48.:26:53.

agreed according to a clear timetable and it must be subject to

:26:54.:26:57.

parliamentary scrutiny and put out to public consultation, so that

:26:58.:27:01.

whoever is in power cannot read road the settlement through again. Please

:27:02.:27:07.

will the Minister give a gu`rantee that such a system will be put in

:27:08.:27:10.

place? We will work with her to achieve that. I'm sure some people

:27:11.:27:15.

believe that asking the BBC to pay ?700 million per year per free

:27:16.:27:22.

licenses was clever politics. I think it was political

:27:23.:27:24.

irresponsibility verging on negligence. The BBC is not `n arm of

:27:25.:27:30.

government. It should not bd asked to make the cost of governmdnt

:27:31.:27:34.

policies. And it should not be asked to ferment the changes to government

:27:35.:27:41.

that government... I thank the honourable gentleman

:27:42.:27:44.

forgiving way. I think it is worth putting on the record that the BBC

:27:45.:27:48.

had a frozen licence fee for the last six years. The governmdnt has

:27:49.:27:52.

agreed to increase the licence fee in line with inflation, that results

:27:53.:28:00.

in an additional income of ?18 million to the BBC. That is more

:28:01.:28:03.

than enough compensation for the money he is talking about. This is a

:28:04.:28:11.

fair settlement. The licencd fee for over 75s was done outside of the

:28:12.:28:14.

charter arrangements. This hs a very fair settlement, giving the BBC

:28:15.:28:20.

extremely good funding but good value for money for the licdnce fee

:28:21.:28:23.

payer. It is certainly a settlement because

:28:24.:28:29.

the BBC have in the -- accepted it as a settlement. That is whx we are

:28:30.:28:33.

not opposing this today. I don't think it is unreasonable to push the

:28:34.:28:38.

Secretary of State on why using an instrument of social security policy

:28:39.:28:42.

is being passed over to the BBC We are considering very carefully

:28:43.:28:45.

whether we can challenge th`t measure the Digital economy Bill at

:28:46.:28:49.

committee stage, because th`t extra cost imposed is equivalent to a 20%

:28:50.:28:56.

budget cut. I know this is ` deal and I know there are differdnt

:28:57.:29:00.

income streams negotiated whth in it. But it seems to me that to do it

:29:01.:29:04.

in such a manner is distinctly unfair and it's the governmdnt

:29:05.:29:09.

passing responsibility for Social Security cuts on a British

:29:10.:29:12.

institution that they should take responsibility for. I should just

:29:13.:29:20.

point out that I have a bad hearing infection, so I can hardly hear a

:29:21.:29:24.

thing today. You will have two shout if you want my attention!

:29:25.:29:30.

When he is considering that amendment in the digital -- Digital

:29:31.:29:34.

economy Bill, Willie Bear in mind that ?630 million of public money

:29:35.:29:39.

was taken from the sea to ftnd broadband in the last Parli`ment? Of

:29:40.:29:45.

this government has real form when it comes to raids on the BBC. We

:29:46.:29:52.

will of course take on board that wise advice.

:29:53.:30:04.

I'm sorry for shouting but H wanted to grab his attention. The loney

:30:05.:30:10.

from the BBC television licdnce fee that was used for broadband was

:30:11.:30:14.

actually the surplus left over from Labour's highly successful digital

:30:15.:30:19.

switchover programme, which was so successful it underspent its budget.

:30:20.:30:25.

We used the surplus to purste our own extremely successful broadband

:30:26.:30:29.

programme. Madam Deputy Speaker, I havd been

:30:30.:30:33.

slightly diverted from the lotion. I have only been in this position for

:30:34.:30:38.

ten days. So I may not have my facts entirely right. I think that the

:30:39.:30:47.

?630 million is also underspent There is about ?60 million left It

:30:48.:30:51.

would be very useful if the government could perhaps give the

:30:52.:30:53.

money back to the BBC, so it could be put into diverse broadcasting

:30:54.:30:59.

like children's broadcasting, which we both have uninteresting. Will he

:31:00.:31:07.

also accept, however, that hn an age when all other public bodies are

:31:08.:31:10.

being asked to make efficiency savings, that for the BBC to be

:31:11.:31:14.

asked to share some of that burden is entirely reasonable? Espdcially

:31:15.:31:22.

given the fact the BBC overspends on a lot of programme making. The

:31:23.:31:25.

number of people, for example, they took to the Olympics was twhce the

:31:26.:31:29.

number of other broadcasters talk. Salaries are still going up. The top

:31:30.:31:34.

echelons have not been reduced. There are still huge pension

:31:35.:31:37.

settlement is being made to those who are leaving. Yes, I hopd I have

:31:38.:31:44.

not given the honourable melber the impression that I don't think the

:31:45.:31:48.

viewers need value for monex. They do. Some of the transparencx

:31:49.:31:52.

measures have helped to enstre that value for money case is madd

:31:53.:31:55.

internally within the BBC. H would like to make a bit of progrdss.

:31:56.:32:04.

Honourable members are aligning public spending, paid for bx

:32:05.:32:09.

taxation, and licence fees pending, which is relatively -- a row to be

:32:10.:32:15.

aggressive form of taxation, if you like.

:32:16.:32:19.

My honourable friend makes ` very good point. We will always lake the

:32:20.:32:24.

case for a strong independent and well funded BBC. That's what we did

:32:25.:32:30.

in government, it's what we intend to do an opposition. I hope we can

:32:31.:32:33.

move on from the days when ` small group of campaigners routindly

:32:34.:32:39.

questioned whether the BBC should exist at all. Ferre handful of

:32:40.:32:44.

people, the licence fee that is funded that the BBC for nearly a

:32:45.:32:47.

century, is an aberration. They believe the only reliable, durable

:32:48.:32:53.

and perpetual guarantor of independence is profit. Perhaps they

:32:54.:32:56.

believe that 40p per day is an outrageous price to pay for the

:32:57.:33:02.

BBC's startling array of television and radio news coverage, current

:33:03.:33:06.

affairs programmes, natural history, drama, comedy and children's

:33:07.:33:10.

programmes. Perhaps they wotld rather see the BBC smaller `nd a

:33:11.:33:14.

little dollar. I don't belidve that. And the British public does not

:33:15.:33:18.

believe that either. That's why one of the 92,000 responses to the

:33:19.:33:22.

consultation on the future of the BBC were putting. -- 190 2000. The

:33:23.:33:28.

overwhelming majority were incredibly favourable and

:33:29.:33:33.

supportive. I want to pay tribute to the campaigners, whose tireless work

:33:34.:33:38.

helped deliver a BBC Charter that is likely to secure its future. The

:33:39.:33:42.

great BBC campaign funded bx Lord West he'd Ali and Charlie P`rsons.

:33:43.:33:50.

The petition to protect our BBC which now has more than 300,000

:33:51.:33:55.

signatures. And all of the creative industry trade unions. All of them

:33:56.:34:05.

came together in a coalition to defend the BBC. They raise

:34:06.:34:09.

awareness, generated support and helped deliver those 192,000

:34:10.:34:15.

responses to the government's consultation and on all sidds of the

:34:16.:34:22.

House we are indebted to thdm all. I agree completely that there is

:34:23.:34:28.

very effective campaigning going on. But there was also a lot of

:34:29.:34:31.

unnecessary scaremongering that took place during this debate. There were

:34:32.:34:39.

claims there would be wholesale destruction of the BBC by the

:34:40.:34:43.

Tories. That was never the case Some people need to apologise for

:34:44.:34:47.

that scaremongering. I'm afraid I'm not quite sure of the specific

:34:48.:34:53.

allegation of scaremongering the honourable member is talking about.

:34:54.:34:58.

He has made his point and it's on the record. We welcome the Royal

:34:59.:35:01.

Charter and the security it gives the BBC. I welcome the U-turn

:35:02.:35:06.

performed by the government, which published the consultation hn July

:35:07.:35:11.

2015. I think it was very dhfferent in tone and intention from the

:35:12.:35:15.

proposals we see before us now. We welcome the fact that the BBC

:35:16.:35:19.

funding settlement will now be decided every 11 years. It hs

:35:20.:35:22.

particularly helpful to remove it from the five-year election cycle.

:35:23.:35:27.

But whilst we welcome the settlement, we know that an

:35:28.:35:30.

institution the size of the BBC can never be perfect. We believd the BBC

:35:31.:35:35.

has a responsibility to look and sound like Britain. Both on screen

:35:36.:35:41.

and off. So it should do far more to identify, employee and promote

:35:42.:35:44.

talent from every background and every walk of life. That me`ns

:35:45.:35:51.

recruiting firm or people from our black Asian and minority ethnic

:35:52.:35:54.

communities. It means more women of every age in senior roles,

:35:55.:35:59.

off-screen, and leading rolds on screen. It also means emploxing

:36:00.:36:03.

people from every social background. The BBC has a duty...

:36:04.:36:12.

I'm practical suggestion. I do so thinking about the school ptpils in

:36:13.:36:17.

Ashfield. The BBC I believe should go into schools in constitudncies

:36:18.:36:20.

like mine and tell them that work experience is open to peopld for

:36:21.:36:24.

your children. Their parents play the licence fee, their kids should

:36:25.:36:29.

have the opportunity to work there. I think that is an excellent idea

:36:30.:36:34.

and perhaps we should build open idea...

:36:35.:36:41.

Does he also agree that givdn the new diversity obligations bx off

:36:42.:36:48.

calm, shouldn't of combat rdflect the make-up of the UK popul`tion,

:36:49.:36:52.

bearing in mind what it has to do in terms of personnel, but also senior

:36:53.:36:54.

management? That's a very insightful pohnt and

:36:55.:37:04.

one we could work together on to try to monitor. So the BBC has ` duty to

:37:05.:37:11.

reflect the nation it serves, that means informing and entertahning

:37:12.:37:16.

licence fee payers as set ott in the charter, but it must also do more to

:37:17.:37:23.

encourage and support British talent regardless of ethnicity, gender

:37:24.:37:27.

sexual orientation, disabilhty or social background. It is well placed

:37:28.:37:31.

to do that because almost uniquely it has a strong and very visible

:37:32.:37:37.

presence across the country. There are BBC studios in Birmingh`m,

:37:38.:37:43.

Bristol and Belfast. There `re offices in Leeds, Nottinghal,

:37:44.:37:47.

Glasgow, Cardiff and many more places too numerous to menthon. It

:37:48.:37:51.

has a duty to reach out to the communities on its doorstep. I know

:37:52.:37:55.

it has significantly expanddd its apprenticeship programme and I

:37:56.:38:00.

commend the director-general Tony Hall for that, but there is far more

:38:01.:38:05.

we can do in this area. According to research carried out in 2014, over

:38:06.:38:14.

nine out of ten jobs in the creative economy were done by people in more

:38:15.:38:19.

advantaged socioeconomic groups compared to 66% in the wider

:38:20.:38:24.

economy. This has to change and I know the front bench are in support

:38:25.:38:28.

of that. So I hope the Minister can reassure me that there will be. .

:38:29.:38:34.

That the new and explicit commitment to diversity will also incltde

:38:35.:38:40.

social class. I grew up in `n era when working-class actors lhke

:38:41.:38:45.

Michael Caine, Glenda Jackson and Julie Walters were giants of popular

:38:46.:38:55.

culture. I have nothing agahnst Benedict Cumberbatch and Eddie

:38:56.:38:59.

Redmayne, I admire their talent hugely. They are great ambassadors

:39:00.:39:04.

for our country but we need more Julie Walters, we need more

:39:05.:39:09.

Christopher Ecclestones. And it shouldn't fall to Lenny Henry and

:39:10.:39:14.

Idris Elba to be the face of the BBC's diversity programme. H think

:39:15.:39:21.

it is probably appropriate `t this point to underline the cross-party

:39:22.:39:27.

support for this direction of travel. The BBC knows it has a lot

:39:28.:39:32.

more work to do. Diversity hs explicitly in the charter, `nd that

:39:33.:39:37.

means in all its forms. Yes, protected characteristics lhke

:39:38.:39:45.

ethnic background, but also social background, where you come from

:39:46.:39:50.

whatever walk of life. I welcome the Minister's reassurance on that, and

:39:51.:39:54.

we will work constructively with the Government to make sure there is a

:39:55.:39:58.

framework that the BBC can `chieve their targets. There have bden

:39:59.:40:04.

decades of lip service being paid to praise of diversity by the various

:40:05.:40:10.

gatekeepers of finance and programme making but nothing has changed at

:40:11.:40:15.

all. The BBC has published hts own national target which commits it to

:40:16.:40:19.

hiring 15% of staff from bl`ck, Asian and ethnic minority groups by

:40:20.:40:25.

2020 but the BBC has a poor record on this. The campaign for

:40:26.:40:30.

broadcasting equality said that despite the BBC's many diversity

:40:31.:40:34.

initiatives and programmes, it has consistently failed to meet its own

:40:35.:40:40.

targets. This cannot continte and I welcome the Minister's commhtment to

:40:41.:40:45.

making sure that doesn't happen The people we see on screen, thd people

:40:46.:40:50.

who create what we see on otr screen, the people who lead

:40:51.:40:54.

television must look more lhke the people we see on our streets. That

:40:55.:41:02.

means seeking out talent on screen and off from the black and dthnic

:41:03.:41:04.

minority communities, it me`ns ensuring roles do not mysteriously

:41:05.:41:08.

disappear for older women, `nd that rolls are created that do not

:41:09.:41:14.

automatically disqualify candidates with disabilities so the ch`rter's

:41:15.:41:20.

new commitment to diversity is welcome. Ofcom's new role whll be

:41:21.:41:25.

vital, it will help bring about a truly diverse BBC that refldcts the

:41:26.:41:30.

nation it serves, and the point the honourable member makes is well

:41:31.:41:34.

taken on that point. But can the Minister say how Ofcom will monitor

:41:35.:41:40.

its news diversity duty? Will it publish data about the numbdr of BBC

:41:41.:41:44.

employees from minority grotps? Will it monitor on-screen talent? Any

:41:45.:41:51.

detail the Minister can givd today will be extremely helpful on this

:41:52.:41:56.

point. The charter also introduces a host of other changes, some more

:41:57.:42:00.

welcome than others. The National Audit Office already helps to make

:42:01.:42:05.

sure the BBC delivers value for money to licence fee payers so we

:42:06.:42:08.

have no objection in principle to extending the BBC's role server to

:42:09.:42:14.

scrutinise the parts of the BBC that spend public money. But we do have

:42:15.:42:20.

some concerns about the any oak s remit being expanded so it covers

:42:21.:42:22.

part of the BBC that are not directly funded that way. Wd think

:42:23.:42:35.

there may be a danger that could place it at a commercial

:42:36.:42:38.

disadvantage and this is a risk that needs to be addressed going forward.

:42:39.:42:44.

The charter attempts to resolve this potential problem by stating the NEO

:42:45.:42:52.

cannot question in the decision made on value for money grounds, but also

:42:53.:42:59.

asks for clarification of a phrase that needs to be defined more

:43:00.:43:03.

precisely in the charter in the future. Will the Minister bd able to

:43:04.:43:09.

give comfort that it won't have a wider interpretation? An independent

:43:10.:43:17.

resolution dispute process needs to be established. We also givd

:43:18.:43:20.

cautious welcome to the proposal that Ofcom will become the BBC's

:43:21.:43:24.

regulator. I've already mentioned the critical role Ofcom will play in

:43:25.:43:30.

monitoring diversity, it will also monitor distinctiveness. Given the

:43:31.:43:38.

issues at stake, can the Minister confirm that Ofcom will also consult

:43:39.:43:43.

parliament and the public on this? The BBC Trust struggled to reconcile

:43:44.:43:50.

its twin roles of the corporation's regulator and its cheerleaddr. It's

:43:51.:43:54.

right that these two functions and responsibilities which were often

:43:55.:44:01.

confusing, are to be offici`lly separated. We welcome the f`ct

:44:02.:44:08.

appointees to the board will be drawn by the BBC, rather th`n

:44:09.:44:13.

appointed by the Government. I commend the Government for

:44:14.:44:16.

performing he'll turn and phvot on the issue. Ed Balls would h`ve been

:44:17.:44:21.

given a ten from lens if he managed to pull that off with such style. --

:44:22.:44:36.

from Len. Which you not agrde with me that one way of guaranteding

:44:37.:44:41.

independence would be to repuire the every nonexecutive is indepdndently

:44:42.:44:45.

appointed? The new charter rewrite the BBC's 19-year-old Mission

:44:46.:44:49.

statement, a commitment to being impartial and distinctive is added

:44:50.:44:59.

to the remit of informing, dducating and entertaining. Distinctiveness is

:45:00.:45:02.

poorly defined, and Ofcom h`s admitted they are still working out

:45:03.:45:06.

exactly what it means. Distinctiveness is a vague notion,

:45:07.:45:11.

there is a risk the BBC's commercial rivals could use it as a sthck to

:45:12.:45:17.

beat the BBC whenever they wish I sense the Secretary of Statd wants

:45:18.:45:21.

to create a new climate in which the future of the BBC can be discussed

:45:22.:45:25.

without political posturing. I don't think she wants to return to the

:45:26.:45:30.

days when David Cameron could describe the prospect of cuts to the

:45:31.:45:34.

nation 's favourite broadcaster as delicious. The Minister's ndw

:45:35.:45:40.

approach is welcome. I belidve the Secretary of State has the BBC's

:45:41.:45:45.

best interest at heart. I c`n detect no desire on her part to usd the BBC

:45:46.:45:49.

as a political football. I really do hope those days are behind ts. The

:45:50.:45:55.

aim of this charter settlemdnt should be to give the BBC the space,

:45:56.:46:00.

time and resources it needs to adapt the huge technological change. This

:46:01.:46:05.

is the only way the BBC will remain relevant to a younger audience who

:46:06.:46:09.

are consuming content in a lyriad of different ways. So we will work with

:46:10.:46:13.

the Secretary of State to sdcure the future of the BBC. Let's hope it is

:46:14.:46:27.

a new benign era for the Bedb. When front bench opposition MPs hnsist

:46:28.:46:33.

you have an obvious right-whng bias, when the left-wing columnist Owen

:46:34.:46:36.

Jones says you are a threat to democracy, when the Foreign

:46:37.:46:40.

Secretary finds you infuriating when politicians and activists of

:46:41.:46:44.

every stripe and persuasion think you are against them, when two

:46:45.:46:48.

thirds of the British public see you as a bastion of editorial excellence

:46:49.:46:53.

and journalistic integrity, when the American public would rather get

:46:54.:47:02.

their news from you than yotr - their own sources, then the BBC can

:47:03.:47:06.

be sure it is doing things right. We should be proud of one of the nation

:47:07.:47:12.

's greatest assets. John Whittingdale. Can I begin bx

:47:13.:47:17.

welcoming the publication of both the draft charter and now the

:47:18.:47:22.

agreement. It is the culmin`tion of a process which started over a year

:47:23.:47:26.

ago with the publication of the consultation paper on the ftture of

:47:27.:47:31.

the BBC, and as both frontbdnchers have referred, that produced a

:47:32.:47:37.

wide-ranging and a luminous response, ranging from the 092, 00

:47:38.:47:41.

people who responded by e-m`il and by letter through to a numbdr of

:47:42.:47:48.

luminaries of the creative industries, who wrote in defence of

:47:49.:47:52.

the threat of the BBC which they saw. But as my honourable friend

:47:53.:47:57.

pointed out, actually I don't believe ever existed. I thank my

:47:58.:48:03.

right honourable friend for giving way and I wanted to put on the

:48:04.:48:06.

record my thanks for the am`zing work he did in this role. It really

:48:07.:48:12.

was a joy to come into the job and find the work that had been done on

:48:13.:48:17.

the charter, which was comprehensive, technically dxcellent

:48:18.:48:20.

and puts the BBC on an excellent footing and I want to thank him for

:48:21.:48:25.

that. I am most grateful to my right honourable friend and it is

:48:26.:48:29.

gratifying, and I think a positive sign that the charter and the

:48:30.:48:33.

agreement essentially reflect the contents of the white paper, which

:48:34.:48:37.

was the result of a great ddal of work, and which again I would point

:48:38.:48:42.

out at the time was very much welcomed by the BBC as putthng the

:48:43.:48:46.

BBC on a sound footing for the future. I do believe that is the

:48:47.:48:53.

case and I think if anything the charter and the agreement is a bit

:48:54.:48:57.

tougher on the BBC than the white paper was. If we look at thd changes

:48:58.:49:01.

made in the charter and agrdement, they actually go further, in ways I

:49:02.:49:07.

welcome. Indeed I might havd suggested myself, such as the

:49:08.:49:10.

salaries publication where the Government has now decided ht is

:49:11.:49:13.

right not to just publish those earning more than ?150,000. But the

:49:14.:49:22.

issue which attracted most comment when the white paper came ott and

:49:23.:49:26.

has featured in the debates we have already had is this issue of the

:49:27.:49:32.

independence of the BBC, and indeed the governance structure. The

:49:33.:49:36.

governance structure was widely recognised on all sides of the House

:49:37.:49:41.

as having failed. The trust had virtually no defenders. When I

:49:42.:49:47.

chaired the select committed we produced a very robust report saying

:49:48.:49:52.

the trust model didn't work. The Lords Communications committee also

:49:53.:49:56.

produced a report making prdcisely the same point, and the ide` that

:49:57.:50:01.

the BBC should have a managdment executive and then this arm's-length

:50:02.:50:06.

body which was part of the BBC but wasn't in the BBC was simplx a

:50:07.:50:11.

recipe for confusion, and ldd to a succession of problems. Things such

:50:12.:50:16.

as the severance payments, the appointment and then departtre of

:50:17.:50:24.

the director-general within the space of 54 days, and huge waste of

:50:25.:50:27.

money like the digital medi` initiative which costs the licence

:50:28.:50:30.

fee payer over ?100 million. We asked David Clementi to comd up with

:50:31.:50:35.

a recommendation for a new governance structure, and hd came

:50:36.:50:39.

back with one that for most people was the right solution, to have a

:50:40.:50:45.

strong board with external governance from Ofcom. The debate

:50:46.:50:48.

was about the appointment is made to that management board, and whether

:50:49.:50:54.

the Government should have ` role. The honourable lady for Bishop

:50:55.:51:02.

Auckland reads some sinister and meaning in the paragraph fotr, where

:51:03.:51:10.

it says it has to take accotnt of these external factors. That

:51:11.:51:16.

particular paragraph is word for word identical to the paragraph in

:51:17.:51:21.

the agreement published in 2006 when the Labour government were hn

:51:22.:51:26.

office. It simply translate the same provision from 2006 into thd new

:51:27.:51:31.

agreement. So if there was ` sinister purpose, it was her

:51:32.:51:36.

government's creation. But there was then a debate about the fact that

:51:37.:51:42.

obviously the unitary board is a more powerful and directly

:51:43.:51:47.

responsible body than the trust It was recognised I think that it was

:51:48.:51:53.

right the chairman remains ` government appointment, although my

:51:54.:51:56.

own view was that because it was such a new creation, it was right

:51:57.:52:00.

that there should be an open competition and that was thd view

:52:01.:52:03.

which was then reached following the publication of a report by the

:52:04.:52:07.

select committee by the new Secretary of State and Primd

:52:08.:52:08.

Minister. The government appoints the four

:52:09.:52:18.

independent directors, each of which will represent or speak for one of

:52:19.:52:24.

the nations of the United Khngdom. The BBC will actually .5 directors.

:52:25.:52:30.

But even the government appointments will be through the Public

:52:31.:52:34.

appointments process. They will not be in the majority. And perhaps most

:52:35.:52:40.

crucially of all, the unitary board will not have a role in editorial

:52:41.:52:46.

decision taking. It will have a role in reaching a judgment about

:52:47.:52:50.

complaints post-transmission, but it will have no involvement in

:52:51.:52:54.

editorial decisions. That is an absolutely crucial safeguard in

:52:55.:52:59.

ensuring that those people cannot be accused of political interfdrence. I

:53:00.:53:04.

have to say, I find it extr`ordinary that all the people who suggested

:53:05.:53:08.

that somehow this was a thrdat to the independence of the BBC, despite

:53:09.:53:13.

the fact that this was pointed out they had no involvement in dditorial

:53:14.:53:18.

decision-making, all of those people have been strangely silent `bout

:53:19.:53:22.

what seems to me a more dangerous precedent. That is the appohntment

:53:23.:53:29.

of James Parnell as the new director of radio medication. When J`mes

:53:30.:53:33.

Parnell was appointed director of strategy by the BBC in 2013, three

:53:34.:53:43.

years after he ceased to be a Labour member of Parliament, five xears

:53:44.:53:48.

after he ceased to be Secretary of State, I actually questioned the

:53:49.:53:51.

Director-General the appointment in the select committee. And I asked

:53:52.:53:56.

him whether or not he could think of any precedent for somebody was not

:53:57.:54:01.

just politically affiliated, but had been an active party politician to

:54:02.:54:06.

seek a management role in the BBC. He couldn't do so, but he dhd say to

:54:07.:54:12.

the select committee, I think the key thing is James's job, of course,

:54:13.:54:18.

is not editorial. He has now become the director of radio. He h`s

:54:19.:54:26.

responsibility, overall responsibility, for the output of a

:54:27.:54:29.

large amount of BBC confident - content and it is impossibld to say

:54:30.:54:34.

he has no say in editorial decisions. He is being grooled as a

:54:35.:54:39.

potential candidate to be Dhrector General, a position which, of

:54:40.:54:42.

course, is also that of chidf editor of the BBC. I like James Parnell. We

:54:43.:54:50.

get on well. We have robust discussions. We agree about quite a

:54:51.:54:54.

lot. I have absolutely no doubt about his commitment to the

:54:55.:55:00.

impartiality of the BBC. In the same way that I am absolutely colmitted

:55:01.:55:04.

to the impartiality of the BBC. But I merely point out that I think if I

:55:05.:55:10.

was to be invited in a few xears to take on a management role in the BBC

:55:11.:55:19.

as a former Secretary of St`te, I suspect that despite the support I

:55:20.:55:22.

might enjoy from some on my own side, it would give rise to howls of

:55:23.:55:28.

outrage. I don't think it would be appropriate. I do think that it does

:55:29.:55:34.

establish a very dangerous precedent, which is far mord of a

:55:35.:55:38.

direct threat to the independence than the nonexecutive indepdndent

:55:39.:55:46.

directors. The honourable gdntleman is making a fair point. What it all

:55:47.:55:50.

goes to show is that we need more of these appointments to be made

:55:51.:55:55.

through independent processds. That is precisely the criticism that we

:55:56.:56:00.

have of the new board structure He has just given another example of

:56:01.:56:07.

where the independence comes into doubt. The honourable lady lakes an

:56:08.:56:11.

interesting point. The government has no involvement in the

:56:12.:56:14.

appointment of Management executives in the BBC. In this particular case,

:56:15.:56:19.

this was another issue, as we understand it, just as therd was no

:56:20.:56:23.

competition when James Parndll was appointed as Director of strategy,

:56:24.:56:28.

there was no external competition for this particular post either

:56:29.:56:32.

That is a matter for the BBC. It is something the select committee has

:56:33.:56:35.

previously questioned quite vigorously. Whilst I am no longer a

:56:36.:56:40.

member, I hope that my succdsses in that position may well wish to take

:56:41.:56:43.

that with the Director-General in the future. Does the Right

:56:44.:56:52.

Honourable member except th`t James Parnell did have a career in the

:56:53.:56:57.

media prior to becoming a mdmber of Parliament? He was a special adviser

:56:58.:57:10.

at Number 10 in that area. Hs not the point for advertising rdally one

:57:11.:57:16.

of ensuring that we don't jtst get white men hand-picked for these

:57:17.:57:24.

jobs? That must be the crithcism, not necessarily his own background

:57:25.:57:27.

and expertise, that clearly exist in this area. I'm not sure the fact

:57:28.:57:33.

that he was a member of Tonx Blair's policy unit is of huge reassurance

:57:34.:57:38.

to me! Appoint the honourable gentleman makes about the nded for

:57:39.:57:41.

diversity is one which we covered in the debate already, and one which I

:57:42.:57:47.

absolutely sign up to. That is something that we have put hnto the

:57:48.:57:50.

public purposes of the BBC for the first time. I think the BBC are

:57:51.:57:57.

committed to trying to ensure greater diversity, but therd is more

:57:58.:57:58.

to go. This is one of the most senhor

:57:59.:58:14.

positions within the BBC with no internal or external adverthsing for

:58:15.:58:17.

the role. There is a lot of criticism about how BBC executives

:58:18.:58:21.

are appointed and how much they are paid. Transparency is important I

:58:22.:58:26.

completely agree. I think that is an important issue. I think thd

:58:27.:58:32.

political precedent is if anything an even more important one comment

:58:33.:58:36.

that the people who complained so vigorously about the suggestion that

:58:37.:58:44.

the government might put in as nonexecutive directors people who

:58:45.:58:48.

may be political friends, that caused howls. And yet in thhs case,

:58:49.:58:51.

when it is not an independent position, it is not at non-dditorial

:58:52.:58:59.

position, that obviously is a much more directly responsible position.

:59:00.:59:05.

And that, it is even more ilportant, should be politically indepdndent.

:59:06.:59:10.

This of course makes it all the more remarkable, does it not, th`t Rona

:59:11.:59:16.

Fairhead was appointed as the chair of the new BBC board when the

:59:17.:59:19.

Secretary of State was in charge, as we subsequently discovered, with no

:59:20.:59:26.

competition whatsoever, but behind closed doors, appointed by the Prime

:59:27.:59:27.

Minister? Of course she was Minister? Of course she was

:59:28.:59:35.

originally appointed as part of a widespread and open on petition when

:59:36.:59:41.

she became chairman of the BBC Trust, which was obviously

:59:42.:59:43.

advertised. There were a nulber of candidates and it went throtgh the

:59:44.:59:48.

full procedure. The fact th`t the then Prime Minister and I told the

:59:49.:59:53.

House that she could serve over the transition by transferring ht into

:59:54.:59:56.

the new position is a matter of public record. As I said in my

:59:57.:00:01.

remarks earlier, I think thd decision later reached that it would

:00:02.:00:04.

be better to put it open colpetition was the correct decision. Is not the

:00:05.:00:13.

point really that the BBC m`y or may not have made a mistake in the way

:00:14.:00:18.

in which they have appointed a particular individual, James

:00:19.:00:24.

Purnell? But they, as an independent organisation, have taken th`t

:00:25.:00:28.

decision. It is not the difficulty -- is not the difficulty we face and

:00:29.:00:33.

the issue about political -, political interference, is that we,

:00:34.:00:40.

in this place, seek to control. . The argument was that when he was

:00:41.:00:44.

Secretary of State, that having a majority of members of the board

:00:45.:00:48.

appointed by the governor of the day was then a concern, that thdre would

:00:49.:00:51.

be a route for political interference from this placd, rather

:00:52.:00:55.

than the BBC making their own mistakes or not? That was a separate

:00:56.:01:02.

debate. I understand the concern expressed. I don't actually agree

:01:03.:01:07.

with it. But even under the original suggestion, the BBC would h`ve a

:01:08.:01:13.

majority when having -- takhng the executive and nonexecutive lembers

:01:14.:01:16.

of the board together. The nonexecutive members would have been

:01:17.:01:19.

through the public appointmdnts process. They would have two have

:01:20.:01:23.

demonstrated their competence, their qualifications for the role. And

:01:24.:01:26.

most people regard that as ` pretty good safeguard. The BBC trust, which

:01:27.:01:32.

the board replaces, was wholly appointed by the government, so this

:01:33.:01:40.

is a big shift. Does he not find it even more bizarre, apart from the

:01:41.:01:44.

political connotations of the appointment, that because ehther of

:01:45.:01:52.

the perceived inexperience of the pointy, or because of other internal

:01:53.:01:56.

factors, the BBC have actually had to create another management post

:01:57.:02:03.

system -- to support James Purnell with a salary of more than the Prime

:02:04.:02:08.

Minister's at a time when they claim to have no money? The honourable

:02:09.:02:13.

gentleman raises a number of points -- a valid point. There are a number

:02:14.:02:16.

of curiosities about this appointment. Perhaps the select

:02:17.:02:20.

committee will want to think about some of those when they next have

:02:21.:02:23.

the Director-General appearhng in front of them. I just want to touch

:02:24.:02:28.

on some other aspects of thd agreement and charter, which I very

:02:29.:02:32.

much welcome. I believe that the introduction of distinctiveness is a

:02:33.:02:36.

key requirement on the BBC. It is very important. It is right that an

:02:37.:02:41.

organisation that enjoys ?4 billion of public money should not be

:02:42.:02:44.

competing with the independdnt sector. That it should look

:02:45.:02:49.

different to the commercial sector. In television and, just as

:02:50.:02:53.

importantly, in radio as well. I hope that by putting that in and

:02:54.:02:58.

having off, adjudicated, th`t will make a difference. -- Ofcom. I

:02:59.:03:04.

completely agree about the distinctiveness. But does hd agree

:03:05.:03:08.

the distinctiveness should be across all of the channels as opposed to

:03:09.:03:14.

just putting some distinctive programmes. It should be across the

:03:15.:03:24.

BBC. I do agree with the honourable gentleman. It will ultimately be a

:03:25.:03:29.

matter for Ofcom to decide whether or not the BBC is meeting that

:03:30.:03:32.

requirement. I don't think ht should be applied on every individtal

:03:33.:03:37.

programme. But clearly each channel should be able to demonstrate that

:03:38.:03:42.

it is markedly different from an equivalent commercial channdl. And

:03:43.:03:47.

that applies certainly in r`dio and also to the mainstream TV channels.

:03:48.:03:53.

I think that is a significant change.

:03:54.:03:59.

I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. Could I ask the

:04:00.:04:05.

honourable gentleman, when he was Secretary of State, did he dver look

:04:06.:04:09.

at the disproportionate amotnt of money distributed to the regions in

:04:10.:04:14.

comparison to London? Some of the regions are very concerned `bout

:04:15.:04:20.

this. I understand that. Thdre are a particular regions, and indded

:04:21.:04:26.

nations, that feel undeservdd - underserved and hard done bx. The

:04:27.:04:33.

BBC made a good move in transferring operations to Salford. I was in

:04:34.:04:36.

favour of the establishment of media city. But it was certainly not

:04:37.:04:41.

sufficient for them to sit back and say, we have done our bit for the

:04:42.:04:46.

English regions. The West Mhdlands has felt underserved. I havd no

:04:47.:04:53.

doubt that the honourable gdntleman from the Scottish National Party

:04:54.:04:56.

will talk about the provision of service and employment and

:04:57.:05:01.

production in Scotland. I think the BBC do need to do more. There are a

:05:02.:05:07.

two things I want to touch on bravely. There are two parthcular

:05:08.:05:13.

developments that I was proloting. The first is the public service

:05:14.:05:17.

content fund. The honourabld gentleman who speaks from the front

:05:18.:05:24.

bench talked about the understand of the provision for broadband and what

:05:25.:05:27.

would happen to it. I hope ht will go to establish the public service

:05:28.:05:31.

content fund, which will provide programming in areas which `re

:05:32.:05:38.

currently being underserved, in which children's television is

:05:39.:05:41.

currently an example. It will be administered outside the BBC. Does

:05:42.:05:46.

the right Honourable gentlelan not think that there may be a chance

:05:47.:05:53.

with that situation of an onerous bureaucracy being created, that may

:05:54.:05:59.

actually cost the licence p`yer more, and may mean that expdrtise in

:06:00.:06:07.

commissioning content is dilinished? I very much hope obviously there

:06:08.:06:11.

will not be an additional bureaucracy. The precise wax of

:06:12.:06:14.

administering it is something that will need to be worked out. But one

:06:15.:06:18.

of the things which I think is a valuable consequence of this, and it

:06:19.:06:22.

is a very small thing, but ht will mean there is an alternativd route

:06:23.:06:27.

for the obtaining of funding from the public purse for public service

:06:28.:06:32.

content, than the BBC has the moment. At the moment the BBC has a

:06:33.:06:36.

monopoly on commissioning content with public money, and that seems to

:06:37.:06:43.

something which in large part is necessary, but dab this altdrnative

:06:44.:06:47.

route, I think, is worth exploring. My memory is not great. I h`ve only

:06:48.:06:52.

been reading the brief for ten days. I think the figure is about ?60

:06:53.:06:57.

million. Does the honourabld member envisage that being an ongohng

:06:58.:07:01.

demand on the BBC, or will ht be a one-off pot as a result of the

:07:02.:07:02.

overspend? It has been clearly identifhed where

:07:03.:07:16.

the money will be spent, and that is over a set period. We will judge the

:07:17.:07:20.

success. It will be for somd extent for the BBC to decide, and for the

:07:21.:07:26.

Government to decide, but I'm content that for the next three

:07:27.:07:30.

years it is in place. The other innovation which I personally am

:07:31.:07:36.

very committed to, for which the director-general has given ` lot of

:07:37.:07:41.

support, is the provision for the BBC to support local media through

:07:42.:07:46.

the establishment of local news reporting and the binding of

:07:47.:07:52.

content. This is to address what is an extremely serious issue, which is

:07:53.:07:56.

the decline of local media `nd the consequences of that for local

:07:57.:07:59.

accountability on democracy. This is not going to solve that, it is a

:08:00.:08:04.

much bigger issue, but it is a recognition the BBC have taken

:08:05.:08:09.

contact from local newspapers, often without attributing it to the local

:08:10.:08:13.

newspaper let alone giving ht any money for it. In this way it will

:08:14.:08:19.

ensure local newspapers continue to cover local institutions and

:08:20.:08:23.

councils, court proceedings and so on, which are extremely important

:08:24.:08:26.

for the functioning of local democracy and it seems to md a

:08:27.:08:30.

legitimate use of the licence fee to do that and I welcome the stpport

:08:31.:08:35.

the BBC has given to it. It is important the BBC should not

:08:36.:08:40.

directly employ these peopld. If it turned out a local newspaper could

:08:41.:08:44.

reduce their employment even more because the BBC will pick up those

:08:45.:08:51.

people and employ them, it would be harming them further. Through a

:08:52.:09:00.

tender process, they need to support them in ensuring there is proper

:09:01.:09:06.

coverage of local political issues and that too is something which is

:09:07.:09:12.

new and I hope will help to sustain local media and local democracy in

:09:13.:09:16.

this country. Finally I wanted to touch on the future of the licence

:09:17.:09:20.

fee. I have been quoted in the past as saying the licence fee w`s worse

:09:21.:09:27.

than the poll tax. It was shmply an observation the licence fee is a

:09:28.:09:31.

flat rate charge payable by every household, and unlike the community

:09:32.:09:34.

charge there isn't any help available even if you are on a very

:09:35.:09:39.

low income. It was simply an observation of that. The licence fee

:09:40.:09:43.

has many flaws, it is regressive, it is hard to collect, we are now

:09:44.:09:48.

closing the iPlayer loophold which was a means by which people were

:09:49.:09:52.

evading it, but I think the Government is right that for this

:09:53.:09:55.

charter period the licence fee should continue because the speed of

:09:56.:10:00.

change of the way in which people receive television is very fast and

:10:01.:10:06.

there may well come a moment when the technology has advanced so that

:10:07.:10:13.

personally the old argument that everybody consumes the BBC hn one

:10:14.:10:17.

form or another is no longer the case. But also if television is

:10:18.:10:21.

distributed by the Internet, which is coming, that is the moment when

:10:22.:10:27.

it is possible to experiment with things like conditional accdss,

:10:28.:10:32.

subscriptions, and I welcomd the fact the BBC have agreed to put a

:10:33.:10:38.

small toe into the water and to use the iPlayer perhaps to supply some

:10:39.:10:43.

additional content on a voltntary subscription basis. It is a very

:10:44.:10:48.

small step but it is just to see about potentially if one dax we

:10:49.:10:53.

might move towards a volunt`ry system of subscription of the BBC.

:10:54.:10:58.

But the technology doesn't permit that now, I don't think it hs

:10:59.:11:02.

appropriate now, but the BBC have agreed to make that first slall step

:11:03.:11:06.

and that is something I welcome I conclude by once again saying I do

:11:07.:11:11.

believe that the draft agredment and the chartered do represent ` sound

:11:12.:11:16.

foundation for the future of the BBC. I would like to take some small

:11:17.:11:22.

credit, despite those who told me I was hell bent on destruction, it was

:11:23.:11:25.

not the case and I hope this proves it. I beg to move the amendlent in

:11:26.:11:36.

the name of my honourable and right honourable friends. Madam Ddputy

:11:37.:11:40.

Speaker, the BBC is one of the most important and influential ctltural

:11:41.:11:46.

social economic and democratic institutions in our country and I

:11:47.:11:49.

welcome the opportunity we `re having here to debate its ftture yet

:11:50.:11:57.

further. I think we are all agreed about a great deal in the House We

:11:58.:12:03.

all agree exactly how important the BBC is, but there has also been a

:12:04.:12:07.

significant agreement on whdre we criticise the BBC. The honotrable

:12:08.:12:11.

gentleman, the new Shadow Sdcretary of State, illustrate I think very

:12:12.:12:18.

effectively how worried manx of us are about diversity. It is `

:12:19.:12:29.

widespread agreement throughout the House, there is a shocking shortage

:12:30.:12:35.

of senior black and minoritx figures at the top of the BBC. We all think,

:12:36.:12:42.

I believe, that the BBC shotld reflect the nation so that when we

:12:43.:12:46.

turn on the television the nation should be reflected back at us and

:12:47.:12:53.

too often it isn't. We don't have enough black faces, lesbian or gave

:12:54.:13:01.

people in management positions or as authority figures on screen. The BBC

:13:02.:13:06.

has always been fantastic about attracting gay people the comedy

:13:07.:13:13.

roles and game shows, but they are not the authority figures presenting

:13:14.:13:17.

the news in the way they should be. He's making a very important point,

:13:18.:13:23.

but does he also agree that off-screen and back-office

:13:24.:13:28.

representation is just as ilportant? Indeed I do, I think that is a very

:13:29.:13:34.

fair point. I think the BBC would probably argue that backstage and in

:13:35.:13:38.

the more junior levels, it hs effective at hiring minoritx

:13:39.:13:45.

figures, but when it comes to promotion there is the real problem

:13:46.:13:47.

and that is very obvious whdn you see the most senior presentdrs on

:13:48.:13:54.

screen or when you are meethngs with the more senior management figures.

:13:55.:13:58.

That is clearly something the BBC has got to address concerns. The BBC

:13:59.:14:05.

is great at setting targets, it is not so good at actually delhvering

:14:06.:14:11.

those targets. Very often the targets are set years in advance and

:14:12.:14:15.

by the time we get to the end stage, we have all forgotten what the

:14:16.:14:19.

target was in the first place so they set new targets to get excited

:14:20.:14:24.

about. Time for them to delhver I would like to associate mysdlf with

:14:25.:14:29.

the widespread criticism thdre was about the agreement between the BBC

:14:30.:14:36.

and licence fees for the ovdr 7 s. This was a deal done in secret by

:14:37.:14:41.

BBC managers and the Governlent Tony Hall told us that he thought

:14:42.:14:48.

his staff were delighted with the deal. I had to pinch myself. Anybody

:14:49.:14:58.

who spends a nanosecond spe`king to the staff knows they thought it was

:14:59.:15:01.

disastrous because of coursd it will have an effect on programme making

:15:02.:15:07.

budgets. Also it is not the role of the BBC to deliver social provision.

:15:08.:15:14.

The BBC is a broadcaster. It is the Government's role to deliver social

:15:15.:15:18.

provision and it was clearlx not a satisfactory development and one we

:15:19.:15:24.

deplore. I also suggest to the BBC management they could take ` leaf

:15:25.:15:29.

out of Channel 4's books. If you are faced with a deal that doesn't look

:15:30.:15:33.

like it will be good for yot, phone up some politicians on your side and

:15:34.:15:37.

see if they can intervene on your behalf rather than negotiathng in

:15:38.:15:41.

secret, especially when your negotiation turns out to be

:15:42.:15:48.

disastrous. Ask your friends for a bit of assistance and you whll do

:15:49.:15:53.

better. The honourable gentleman makes an important point about the

:15:54.:15:58.

negotiation of the BBC, but to be fair the blame lies with thhs

:15:59.:16:02.

Government who took the BBC to the brink and then offered them a deal

:16:03.:16:08.

which they had no choice but to accept. Except of course thd

:16:09.:16:12.

previous director-general, when faced with this threat, thrdatened

:16:13.:16:20.

to resign and the Government blinked, and so the BBC has enormous

:16:21.:16:27.

power if it plays its cards well. The BBC would probably breathe a

:16:28.:16:32.

sigh of relief that they got off so lightly with the deal they had. They

:16:33.:16:37.

have an increase in the licdnce fee, a five-year review which probably

:16:38.:16:40.

means nothing, and this year they have had enough money to increase

:16:41.:16:49.

their wage bill by ?21 millhon. Indeed, and the honourable gentleman

:16:50.:16:53.

makes a fair point about BBC salaries, which I will come onto

:16:54.:16:59.

later. They are ludicrously inflated at senior levels, and quite often

:17:00.:17:04.

the director-general says wd pay these huge salaries because that is

:17:05.:17:08.

the going rate in the outside world. Of course we don't know that because

:17:09.:17:13.

nobody ever leaves senior posts in the BBC because none of thel want to

:17:14.:17:17.

test that because they know of course they will not achievd the

:17:18.:17:22.

salaries in the outside world. I asked the director-general hf he had

:17:23.:17:27.

ever conducted a study on more senior staff got when they dntered

:17:28.:17:30.

outside industry and he said he had never conducted this. I'm stre the

:17:31.:17:38.

honourable gentleman would `gree with me that in any other btsiness,

:17:39.:17:44.

whatever it may be, even in local government you test the outside

:17:45.:17:47.

salary levels, you test the market on that. That's precisely the point

:17:48.:17:53.

I made to the director-general. Have you tested this, answer, now I

:17:54.:18:01.

haven't. His whole argument for giving people ludicrously inflated

:18:02.:18:04.

salaries failed with that answer. The right honourable gentlelan

:18:05.:18:09.

correctly predicts I will ttrn to Scotland and for a period of time it

:18:10.:18:13.

has been clear the BBC is not delivering for Scotland in the way

:18:14.:18:18.

that it should be. Audience satisfaction rating showed Scots

:18:19.:18:22.

don't feel the corporation fully represents its views and interests.

:18:23.:18:27.

Appreciation levels in Scotland are lower than average for the rest of

:18:28.:18:35.

the UK, and feel the BBC is poorer at representing their lives compared

:18:36.:18:39.

with people in other parts of the UK. You don't have to take ly word

:18:40.:18:44.

for it, that's what the BBC says itself and fully acknowledgds this

:18:45.:18:50.

is a problem. We and our colleagues in Holyrood and the Scottish

:18:51.:18:53.

Government are committed to high quality well resourced publhc

:18:54.:18:57.

service broadcasting, and won the BBC charter that allows for this.

:18:58.:19:03.

Charter renewal has been a valuable opportunity to provide a fr`mework

:19:04.:19:07.

for the BBC that enables it to maintain its important role as a

:19:08.:19:11.

public service broadcaster, improve its performance for Scottish and UK

:19:12.:19:14.

audiences, and provide further support for the Scottish production

:19:15.:19:19.

sector and those in the widdr creative industries. For thd first

:19:20.:19:23.

time the Scottish Government at Holyrood have had a formal role in

:19:24.:19:27.

the charter renewal process following on from the

:19:28.:19:30.

recommendations of the Smith commission. The SNP has delhvered a

:19:31.:19:35.

clear and consistent messagd on the straightforward changes we believe

:19:36.:19:38.

would help transform the BBC in Scotland for the better. Whhle we

:19:39.:19:43.

welcome a number of elements within the charter, it is vital now that

:19:44.:19:51.

the BBC delivers. The SNP h`s argued that the BBC needs an enforceable

:19:52.:19:56.

licence service agreement for Scotland, and a dedicated board

:19:57.:20:01.

member for Scotland. There `re clear reasons for this. The Scotthsh board

:20:02.:20:05.

would allow BBC Scotland to have greater control over its budget and

:20:06.:20:10.

to be given meaningful commhssion powers. The charter accepts SNP

:20:11.:20:16.

proposals for the BBC to report back, but does not make provisions

:20:17.:20:21.

for a fairer share of the lhcence fee raised in Scotland to bd spent

:20:22.:20:27.

in Scotland. This would delhver an additional 100 million of investment

:20:28.:20:30.

annually in these creative industries. We welcome the

:20:31.:20:35.

commitment for continuing stpport for the Gaelic language of the

:20:36.:20:37.

Secretary of State refrained from going a bit further and movhng

:20:38.:20:41.

towards parity with the Welsh channel, S4C. This was recolmended

:20:42.:20:51.

by the committee on which I sit We support many of the wider proposals

:20:52.:20:55.

within the draft charter. Wd welcome the abolition of the BBC Trtst and

:20:56.:21:01.

its replacement by a unitarx board, but as I suggested when I rose to

:21:02.:21:05.

question the right honourable gentleman, we were alarmed to see

:21:06.:21:10.

the rather relaxed method of selection for the new chair, when

:21:11.:21:18.

Rona Fairhead moved seamlessly from her old job as the trust ch`ir to

:21:19.:21:22.

her new job as the chair of the unitary board. The right honourable

:21:23.:21:28.

gentleman said the transition period was important because in effect the

:21:29.:21:32.

transition meant that she w`s continuing in the same job. But of

:21:33.:21:37.

course miss Fairhead herself said it was a completely different job,

:21:38.:21:41.

which is precisely why it should have been subject to open

:21:42.:21:44.

competition rather than comd about as a result of a cosy chat between

:21:45.:21:51.

her and the Prime Minister with no civil servants present. Discovering

:21:52.:21:55.

this in the course of a heated select committee cross-examhnation

:21:56.:21:59.

resulted in Miss Fairhead accepting that perhaps she should go.

:22:00.:22:06.

Annually had a go area at the Director-General of the BBC. But

:22:07.:22:12.

isn't it Rona Fairhead we should have been screaming blue murder when

:22:13.:22:17.

the government forced a settlement on her? The whole point of her post

:22:18.:22:21.

is that she is meant to be independent and should be able to

:22:22.:22:28.

say, no, you can't do this. The honourable gentleman makes ` good

:22:29.:22:32.

point. Many of us found it disturbing she had been appointed

:22:33.:22:36.

without open competition. What was the quid pro quo for getting a job

:22:37.:22:41.

like that with no competition? Clearly she would have to bd truly

:22:42.:22:44.

saintly enough to feel slightly beholden to the people who had

:22:45.:22:51.

appointed her in that way. Scotland's frustrations with the BBC

:22:52.:22:54.

often focus on the provision of news. This is why I called for a new

:22:55.:23:04.

Scottish six. The national news programme is treated as a rdgional

:23:05.:23:07.

rather than a national news programme under current

:23:08.:23:09.

arrangements. It is under rdsourced and cannot report on news ottside of

:23:10.:23:17.

Scotland's border. The currdnt news does not work in the post-rdvolution

:23:18.:23:21.

age. Scottish viewers often have to sit through stories on devolved

:23:22.:23:25.

issues which have absolutelx no relevance to them. English health,

:23:26.:23:30.

aimless policing, it is a blast from the past and it needs to ch`nge I

:23:31.:23:35.

am very grateful to the honourable gentleman. I wonder if he c`n

:23:36.:23:43.

clarify... In response to the Secretary of State during the BBC

:23:44.:23:46.

charter statement last month, the Secretary of State said it's for the

:23:47.:23:52.

editorial of the BBC, with total independence in this matter, to

:23:53.:23:57.

decide exactly if the Scotthsh six would happen. The honourabld

:23:58.:24:00.

gentleman tweeted afterwards that it was good to hear this was a matter

:24:01.:24:05.

for the BBC and not the govdrnment. But is his motion not pushing the

:24:06.:24:08.

government to make a decision rather than leaving it to the editorial

:24:09.:24:16.

department of the BBC? I thhnk the honourable gentleman confusds

:24:17.:24:21.

structure with editorial policy It's perfectly reasonable offer any

:24:22.:24:25.

of us to argue there should be devolution of broadcasting `nd

:24:26.:24:28.

structural changes. That is why the select committee came out

:24:29.:24:31.

unanimously in favour of thd separate Scottish six. Therd were

:24:32.:24:38.

not presuming to tell the editors to tell -- what the content should be.

:24:39.:24:43.

That is an editorial matter. But simply to recommend an advance the

:24:44.:24:47.

cause of the Scottish six is structural and not editorial. It is

:24:48.:24:54.

important not to confuse thd two. The Scottish six is an incrddibly

:24:55.:24:57.

important issue in Scottish broadcasting. I am undecided as to

:24:58.:25:03.

whether or not is a good thhng. I want good quality Scottish news

:25:04.:25:05.

rather than perhaps forcing a programme that is not of thd quality

:25:06.:25:12.

people expect. Is he saying that the issue around whether or not BBC

:25:13.:25:15.

Scotland initiates a Scottish six o'clock news is an editorial

:25:16.:25:20.

judgment for the BBC or a policy judgment in the charter rendwal

:25:21.:25:26.

That is a very good question. For too long this particular subject has

:25:27.:25:30.

been party political in a w`y that I don't think it should be. I am a

:25:31.:25:36.

former journalist. I believd in independent journalism. I w`nt to

:25:37.:25:42.

see more jobs in journalism. I want to see Scottish news prosper. And

:25:43.:25:48.

I've always found there to be a certain irony in this. In the

:25:49.:25:52.

Scottish political debate m`ny people say there is not enotgh

:25:53.:25:55.

scrutiny in the Scottish government. I don't know whether I agred or

:25:56.:26:00.

disagree. That is what some people, especially in the Labour Party,

:26:01.:26:04.

argue. I am arguing for an hour long programme where you can scrttinise

:26:05.:26:08.

the Scottish government for a full hour. Surely that has to be a good

:26:09.:26:11.

thing? It gives more opporttnities for opposition politicians. It

:26:12.:26:17.

provides more jobs. And crucially, it is something that BBC Scotland

:26:18.:26:21.

itself once. I talk to the journalists.

:26:22.:26:27.

I can't wait to hear. Is th`t not an argument for the people of South

:26:28.:26:30.

Leicestershire and the remahning part of the United Kingdom to hear

:26:31.:26:35.

exactly the failures of the Scottish government? Surely it is an argument

:26:36.:26:38.

to have more Scottish news on the UK main news rather than a sep`rate

:26:39.:26:45.

bulletin? Madam Deputy Speaker, I fear that this is cloud cuckoo land.

:26:46.:26:49.

While I wouldn't presume for one moment to tell the network dditors

:26:50.:26:53.

what they should put on the news, I have to tell that if somebody

:26:54.:27:00.

Starred Up at a newsroom edhtorial meeting and said, you know what I

:27:01.:27:06.

think we should have a tenant report on Scottish politics for thd viewers

:27:07.:27:08.

of South Leicestershire, I suspect they wouldn't get very far. -- a ten

:27:09.:27:15.

minute report. Surely this hs a matter of equality due in W`les

:27:16.:27:20.

Welsh speakers have issues dedicated to them on national and

:27:21.:27:23.

international matters. 80% of non-Welsh speakers do not gdt that

:27:24.:27:32.

through the lens. This is a quality matter for people in Scotland and

:27:33.:27:35.

Wales. The honourable lady lakes a very good point. There is a bitter

:27:36.:27:42.

irony for me. I opened the front page of the Daily Mail when the

:27:43.:27:45.

select committee came out in favour of a Scottish six, and the front

:27:46.:27:51.

page condemned the decentralisation of broadcasting on a front page

:27:52.:27:57.

which was itself devolved. Of course, the Daily Mail does not run

:27:58.:28:01.

the same front page in Scotland as it does in the UK, because ht knows

:28:02.:28:05.

there are different news prhorities. I will take the right honourable

:28:06.:28:14.

gentleman. I am enjoying thd honourable member's contribttion. I

:28:15.:28:18.

am the new kid. I have not been party political about the Scottish

:28:19.:28:24.

six o'clock news. I am trying to understand when his position has

:28:25.:28:27.

changed. When I was doing hhs homework, I found a quote from him

:28:28.:28:34.

in a question to the Ministdr had a recent debate, when he said, does

:28:35.:28:37.

the Secretary of State agred that that the matter of a separate

:28:38.:28:43.

Scottish six is entirely thd BBC? What I'm trying to understand is he

:28:44.:28:47.

seems to be contradicting that in speaking to this amendment. Could he

:28:48.:28:53.

explain it thinking has changed Yes. I'm delighted to explahn. In

:28:54.:28:59.

answers to questions given to me by the former Secretary of State and

:29:00.:29:04.

the current Secretary of St`te, they both said, while agreeing that

:29:05.:29:08.

Scotland was underserved, accepting the BBC's on an analysis th`t the

:29:09.:29:14.

BBC is not trusted in Scotl`nd, they said to me the job of news, they

:29:15.:29:17.

thought, was to bring a nathon together. I don't believe it is I

:29:18.:29:23.

think the job of the BBC is to report without fear or favotr and to

:29:24.:29:29.

provide the best possible ndws for the viewers, rather than acting as a

:29:30.:29:33.

cheerleader for one constitttional settlement or another. So mx view is

:29:34.:29:41.

that the BBC should devolve to the maximum amount possible, I believe

:29:42.:29:48.

in the concept of a separatd Scottish six. But at that point

:29:49.:29:52.

politicians should stand back and allowed the BBC to decide the form

:29:53.:29:55.

of that programme and of cotrse the content. If you want to ask me a

:29:56.:30:03.

question, please feel free. If you mumble, I cannot hear you. H thank

:30:04.:30:09.

the honourable member once `gain. Was it not the -- was it not the SMP

:30:10.:30:18.

activists that bullied BBC executives during the Scotthsh

:30:19.:30:21.

referendum by alleging that the editorial content on BBC Scotland

:30:22.:30:26.

news programmes was biased? Madame Deputy Speaker, there was a vigorous

:30:27.:30:30.

debate in Scotland in which both sides accuse the other... I heard

:30:31.:30:38.

you. You don't have to repe`t it. Both sides accuse the other of

:30:39.:30:44.

bullying. The BBC itself saxs it should have learned lessons. There

:30:45.:30:53.

is a very important argument to be had about exactly how the BBC covers

:30:54.:30:58.

referenda. In a binary choice, the coverage has to be very different

:30:59.:31:04.

from a multiparty election. I think the BBC accepts itself that it

:31:05.:31:08.

covered the referendum camp`ign like a general election rather than a

:31:09.:31:12.

binary choice. And of coursd the BBC got itself into a bit of a funk on

:31:13.:31:19.

this. On the one hand they said defending themselves, there are no

:31:20.:31:23.

lessons to be learned, we m`de no mistakes. But almost immedi`tely

:31:24.:31:26.

they said, we must learn thd lessons of the Scottish referendum campaign

:31:27.:31:31.

for how we covered the European Referendum Bill campaign. That is

:31:32.:31:35.

entirely coherent. You cannot say our coverage was perfect and other

:31:36.:31:38.

same time say we will learn the lessons from the previous c`mpaign.

:31:39.:31:43.

I would like to move on. I will say no I'm afraid. The important thing

:31:44.:31:52.

for all of us is to remember that BBC Radio one Scotland and BBC Alba

:31:53.:32:00.

have done exactly what has been proposed for decades in the case of

:32:01.:32:05.

BBC radio Scotland. They have a grown-up running order in which the

:32:06.:32:11.

UK, the Scottish, the world's most important story that night leads the

:32:12.:32:16.

news. So all of us have got to think, how would we feel if we open

:32:17.:32:21.

a newspaper and Agolli had Welsh stories, or English stories, or

:32:22.:32:25.

Scottish stories? It would be a most peculiar newspaper. That is the

:32:26.:32:32.

position the BBC finds itself in Scotland. I believe this wotld

:32:33.:32:35.

provide new opportunities for as talented and skilled professionals

:32:36.:32:37.

in Scotland. It would creatd new jobs, bring investment and `ssist

:32:38.:32:44.

BBC Scotland in building its reputation as a high qualitx

:32:45.:32:46.

broadcaster. What is absolutely vital is that we recognise ht is

:32:47.:32:53.

what the BBC staff want thelselves. The editor of reporting Scotland,

:32:54.:32:57.

Andrew Browne, said the following: we are really keen to see a separate

:32:58.:33:01.

Scottish and six. I would love to take this programme forward. It has

:33:02.:33:07.

got worldviews, Scottish news, UK news, it is something we cotld all

:33:08.:33:10.

do. Any journalist would want to work on a programme like th`t.

:33:11.:33:18.

However, he added, it's for people higher than the BBC to decide

:33:19.:33:22.

whether or not this is the right direction to go in. Meanwhile, STV

:33:23.:33:29.

saw a gap in the market. Whhle the BBC anguished, probably worrying

:33:30.:33:31.

about what politicians thought in a way it should not, STV have out like

:33:32.:33:39.

the BBC by announcing a Scottish seven o'clock news to be latnched in

:33:40.:33:46.

2017. There lies a problem `t the heart of BBC Scotland. Without a

:33:47.:33:50.

fairer share of the licence fee without greater control over its own

:33:51.:33:55.

budget, without the authority to make commissioning decisions, BBC

:33:56.:33:57.

Scotland too often relies on the decisions of executives. In London,

:33:58.:34:03.

invariably. Granted permisshon for what it can and cannot do. Leaning

:34:04.:34:09.

for editorial and financial control might be trapped -- must be

:34:10.:34:15.

transferred north of the border The opportunity for people in the

:34:16.:34:17.

creative industries must be realised. Maximum revolution of

:34:18.:34:21.

broadcasting in Scotland is necessary to deliver the high

:34:22.:34:25.

quality well resourced broadcast sector Scotland deserves.

:34:26.:34:39.

One more for the road. Please, we want to support your motion.

:34:40.:34:43.

Therefore, can you give clarity about what the motion actually says.

:34:44.:34:50.

Is the Scottish six in the BBC News Scotland context and editorhal

:34:51.:34:54.

decision for the BBC in Scotland, as the motion I hope says, or `re you

:34:55.:34:58.

hoping to make it a policy decision in the charter?

:34:59.:35:02.

The latter would not be deshrable. There are a lot of people using you,

:35:03.:35:15.

meaning honourable members. I think it is absolutely important that

:35:16.:35:19.

there should not be politic`l interference in the decision about

:35:20.:35:25.

whether or not there is a sdparate Scottish six. I have made this point

:35:26.:35:30.

repeatedly. I am encouraging the BBC to continue fearlessly with its

:35:31.:35:35.

current proposals to continte with the pilots and to provide jobs and

:35:36.:35:42.

investment in the way that the BBC once to do. And its staff w`nt to

:35:43.:35:47.

do. Madame Deputy Speaker, the BBC is rich in talent and creathvity.

:35:48.:35:51.

Its strength is its extraordinary workforce. We have made cle`r our

:35:52.:35:58.

passionate support for publhc service broadcasting. Where we have

:35:59.:36:02.

offered criticism, we hope ht has been constructive. Much of the

:36:03.:36:07.

criticism has been accepted by the BBC itself. We urge the BBC to

:36:08.:36:09.

transfer its aspirations into delivery.

:36:10.:36:14.

Order. For the avoidance of doubt, at the beginning of the spedch he

:36:15.:36:19.

moved the motion. He was spdaking to the motion. He will be calldd to

:36:20.:36:27.

formally move the amendment at the end of the debate.

:36:28.:36:32.

Helen Grant. Much of this ddbate today will no doubt focus on issues

:36:33.:36:38.

such as governance, compliance, regulation, independence,

:36:39.:36:45.

distinctiveness, financial stability. But I would like to use

:36:46.:36:50.

my time this afternoon to again raise an issue that is far too often

:36:51.:36:56.

pushed to the margins. Namely, diversity. And equal opporttnities.

:36:57.:37:07.

Last week, Madame Deputy Spdaker, I attended the launch of the BBC's

:37:08.:37:09.

black British season. It was held in Soho and was well

:37:10.:37:28.

attended. It was attempting to overturn various misconcepthons and

:37:29.:37:31.

to challenge the Orthodox. The aim too was also to show what it really

:37:32.:37:39.

means to be black and British today. I must admit when I arrived, I was a

:37:40.:37:46.

little sceptical. But when H left, I was a little emotional. I h`d been

:37:47.:37:56.

taken on a journey back to the 0s, 50s, 60s and 70s, and then forward

:37:57.:38:03.

again to the future with a documentary speculating on whether

:38:04.:38:09.

we'll ever have a black Prile Minister by some brilliant diverse

:38:10.:38:17.

writers, presenters, broadc`sters, directors and producers. I think I'd

:38:18.:38:25.

witnessed the BBC operating some of its very best -- at some of its very

:38:26.:38:34.

best. It made me proud to bd British and very excited about the future.

:38:35.:38:41.

Going forward, this desire `nd commitment for even greater

:38:42.:38:47.

diversity at the BBC seems very genuine and pretty well reflected in

:38:48.:38:53.

the draft charter and the agreement. But there are three areas where

:38:54.:38:57.

clarification from either the Secretary of State if she's here or

:38:58.:39:02.

the minister, either in his or her winding up, or in writing in the

:39:03.:39:08.

future, would be very helpftl. I would also like to make one or two

:39:09.:39:25.

remarks about Ofcom. First, Al - although DCMS have published papers,

:39:26.:39:30.

there is nothing for divershty and equal opportunities and I would

:39:31.:39:34.

therefore ask the Secretary of State or her minister to look into

:39:35.:39:38.

providing a comparable doculent as soon as they possibly can. Second;

:39:39.:39:48.

the draft charter states thd following. "The BBC must ensure it

:39:49.:39:55.

reflects the diverse communhties of the whole of the United Kingdom in

:39:56.:40:01.

the content of its output, the means by which its output is delivered,

:40:02.:40:06.

including where its activithes are carried out and by whom and in the

:40:07.:40:13.

organisation and management of the BBC. "

:40:14.:40:17.

Could the Secretary of Statd or her minister please confirm that this

:40:18.:40:23.

diversity requirement applids to on-screen and off screen employment

:40:24.:40:28.

from all supplies both internal and independent.

:40:29.:40:34.

Third; the agreement requirds the BBC to promote equal opporttnities

:40:35.:40:44.

in relation to disability, race and sex and to make people award of its

:40:45.:40:50.

arrangements to achieve this. To review the arrangements and to

:40:51.:40:55.

publish a report at least once a year on the effectiveness of those

:40:56.:41:01.

arrangements. On this latter requirement, I would very

:41:02.:41:04.

respectfully ask the Secret`ry of State and her minister to please pay

:41:05.:41:11.

special attention to the word "effectiveness". This is because we

:41:12.:41:17.

actually need to know what works and what doesn't work. Too often in my

:41:18.:41:23.

life in my experience, both as a lawyer and as a politician hn this

:41:24.:41:30.

place, institutions have bo`sted good practice, best practicd, but

:41:31.:41:37.

then we find good practice, best practice does not mean effective

:41:38.:41:41.

action and we really do need effective action here. Finally;

:41:42.:41:53.

Ofcom's Regulators are responsible for making sure the requirelents are

:41:54.:41:57.

realised. In the past, I confess I've not been overly impressed by

:41:58.:42:02.

Ofcom's response to statutory equality duties. But they now have a

:42:03.:42:09.

new CEO who's promised a harder edged approach to diversity and

:42:10.:42:14.

she's also mentioned quotas and she's mentioned ringfenced funding

:42:15.:42:19.

if necessary. I hope that Sharon White's words are reflected in

:42:20.:42:23.

action and I shall be watchhng very carefully. I'm happy to givd way.

:42:24.:42:28.

The honourable lady's making a characteristically powerful speech.

:42:29.:42:35.

Does she agree with me that it is particularly important, givdn the

:42:36.:42:40.

diversity of the population under the age of 18, that we have a

:42:41.:42:45.

home-grown capacity for makhng children's programmes so th`t the

:42:46.:42:49.

programmes that children watch are reflective of the communitids they

:42:50.:42:51.

live in? I think the honourable lady's making

:42:52.:42:56.

a very good point and I'd bd extremely interested to look into

:42:57.:43:04.

that sort of idea. On the b`sis too, that transparency drives diversity,

:43:05.:43:09.

I also hope that Sharon White will require full publication of the

:43:10.:43:15.

BBC's diversity data with Ofcom providing commentary and thd

:43:16.:43:22.

essential evaluation. Madam Deputy Speaker, many people listenhng to

:43:23.:43:28.

this debate today have workdd so, so hard for years to advance dhversity

:43:29.:43:35.

in the arts and creative industry.s in still much to do, there hs still

:43:36.:43:41.

a way to go. But I do actually feel that we are on the brink of some

:43:42.:43:45.

real progress here. I would therefore like to take this

:43:46.:43:51.

opportunity to pay tribute to the former culture mayor, my right

:43:52.:43:54.

honourable friend, the membdr for Didcot and Wantage, Ed vasy, and to

:43:55.:44:01.

all those committed individtals both inside Parliament and outside

:44:02.:44:05.

Parliament, such as Simon Oldbury of the campaign for broadcasting

:44:06.:44:08.

equality who never seemed to give up. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

:44:09.:44:18.

Can I begin by saying that since I stood down from the frontbench in

:44:19.:44:23.

June, I've agreed to take on the secretaryship of the all party

:44:24.:44:27.

Parliamentary Group on the BBC just so that colleagues around the

:44:28.:44:31.

chamber know. Can I begin bx welcoming the Right Honourable lady,

:44:32.:44:36.

the member for Staffordshird Moorlands and the new Secretary of

:44:37.:44:40.

State to her place and her linister as well, both of whom are ndw in the

:44:41.:44:46.

job, although not in Governlent And can I also commend my right

:44:47.:44:51.

honourable friend, the membdr for West Bromwich East on his ddbut and

:44:52.:44:57.

debate at the despatch box hn this particular role and wish hil well.

:44:58.:45:02.

Now, although the new ministers have come late to this process of BBC

:45:03.:45:06.

charter renewal, it is now for them to finish off all of the work that's

:45:07.:45:11.

been done before and done so far. And I am glad to see that some of

:45:12.:45:16.

the more lurid fantasies of the former Secretary of State who I m

:45:17.:45:19.

really pleased to say in thd place, the Right Honourable gentlelan for

:45:20.:45:22.

Malden, will be well and trtly finished off by the time thd new

:45:23.:45:27.

charter becomes operational. I'm sure that the Secretary of State and

:45:28.:45:32.

the minister have realised `lready the incredibly high esteem with

:45:33.:45:35.

which the BBC is held in thd UK by our constituents who pay for and

:45:36.:45:42.

consume its services. The interest therefore and campaigning that

:45:43.:45:46.

there's been around and abott the process of charter renewal `nd the

:45:47.:45:51.

wish that around the countrx, around the nations and regions that the

:45:52.:45:54.

Government get this charter right. Let me give the Government some

:45:55.:45:57.

credit. This isn't something that I always do. But let me give them some

:45:58.:46:04.

credit. The end result looks better, looks like it will be better, though

:46:05.:46:09.

many of us had -- than many of us had feared. There are one or two

:46:10.:46:13.

concerns that remain and I'l going to come on to mention one or two of

:46:14.:46:19.

them in my remarks. When we consider the future of the BBC, we should

:46:20.:46:24.

always keep in mind its history at the centre of our national life

:46:25.:46:27.

Around this chamber, people do do that when they contribute to this

:46:28.:46:34.

debate. The fact that it's one of our most-loved institutions, behind

:46:35.:46:37.

only the Monarch, the Armed Forces and the National Health Service in

:46:38.:46:42.

the esteem with which it's held Loved and valued it most certainly

:46:43.:46:46.

is. The consultation on the Green Party earlier as part of thd charter

:46:47.:46:51.

renewal process review simply reiterated the extent to whhch this

:46:52.:46:56.

is so. Those of us who knock on the door of our constituents and try to

:46:57.:47:00.

get them to approve what we do in our jobs I think can only look on in

:47:01.:47:06.

awe at an 81% approval rating which is what the public believe the BBC

:47:07.:47:14.

do a good job, 81% of them. I think we could all wish for such ` high

:47:15.:47:20.

level of approval from thosd that we seek to work for. When combhned with

:47:21.:47:26.

the fact that a very high ntmber of people in this one trirks some 7%

:47:27.:47:31.

of people in this country actually consume the BBC's services for an

:47:32.:47:37.

average of 18 hours a week, that's a very impressive set of figures and

:47:38.:47:41.

something we should all bear in mind when we are considering the future

:47:42.:47:45.

of the BBC. Now, of course, the public have taken part many the

:47:46.:47:49.

Charter Review period in so far as they've been able to by way of the

:47:50.:47:53.

consultation on the Green P`rty and, as I think the Secretary of State

:47:54.:48:01.

mentioned in her own remarks of some 192,000 of them replied, three

:48:02.:48:04.

quarters believed the BBC should remain independent and two thirds

:48:05.:48:09.

believe the BBC has a posithve wider impact on the market and th`t BBC

:48:10.:48:15.

expansion is justified. The BBC I think is also a linchpin of our

:48:16.:48:19.

creative industries, and our broader creative industries in the whole of

:48:20.:48:24.

the UK. It allows us both to punch well above our weight as a nation in

:48:25.:48:28.

terms of exporting creative output to the rest of the world, as well as

:48:29.:48:33.

being a key component in thd soft power that even our new Fordign

:48:34.:48:36.

Secretary's commented upon `s he starts himself to get to grhps with

:48:37.:48:41.

his new role. Both of these things I think are even more important after

:48:42.:48:47.

the referendum on the 23rd June than they were before when the former

:48:48.:48:52.

Secretary of State and I were both still in our places on the

:48:53.:48:55.

frontbench. So I think we all ought to be able to agree, and I'l sure we

:48:56.:49:00.

will, on how lucky we are as a nation to have the BBC and we ought

:49:01.:49:06.

to use the charter renewal process to enable it to continue to do the

:49:07.:49:10.

job that it is doing. I'll give way to the honourable gentleman who s

:49:11.:49:14.

just come back into his place. I thank the Right Honourable lady She

:49:15.:49:20.

talks about how popular the BBC is and she's absolutely right. When 75%

:49:21.:49:25.

agree on the BBC for news, does she agree it's important the BBC is and

:49:26.:49:29.

is seen to be impartial in latters? I do agree with that. But I think

:49:30.:49:34.

it's also important that thdy should be the judges of impartiality and be

:49:35.:49:39.

held to account for it, that we shouldn't be able to override them

:49:40.:49:43.

from this chamber because wd, of course, we are outside the House and

:49:44.:49:48.

we are not impartial. A good charter I think must guarantee that the

:49:49.:49:54.

BBC's editorial independencd is beyond doubt. It must guarantee that

:49:55.:49:59.

the BBC's financial independence is going to continue and it has to help

:50:00.:50:07.

it to fulfil its mission to educate, inform and entertain. I think that

:50:08.:50:13.

that is the yard stick by which we should judge this charter. Now, can

:50:14.:50:20.

I say that I think the 11-ydar length of the charter is a good

:50:21.:50:24.

thing because it does give some stability, it takes an extr` view

:50:25.:50:27.

out of the political cycle hnto which this House and Parlialent s

:50:28.:50:32.

passage of the fixed term Mdmbers of Parliament Act suddenly pitched it.

:50:33.:50:37.

I think that that's entirelx good. I am, however, still a bit concerned

:50:38.:50:43.

that the mid term review whhch is presumably will take place `fter

:50:44.:50:48.

five-and-a-half years, will health check, as it's been imaginatively

:50:49.:50:53.

dubbed by ministers, has thd potential to be deeply dest`bilising

:50:54.:50:58.

if there's a will in Governlent to ex-boy that review. Now, we have

:50:59.:51:02.

been reassured this isn't going to be a mini Charter Review because

:51:03.:51:06.

that is the fear. The minister in the other place, the noble Lord

:51:07.:51:10.

Ashton of Hyde said it would consider only governance and

:51:11.:51:13.

regulation, not the scope and scale of the BBC. But governance `nd

:51:14.:51:18.

regulation, these two things have changed from the current proposals

:51:19.:51:21.

half way through the charter, could leave things looking very dhfferent

:51:22.:51:25.

to how they look at present. So can the minister give us some

:51:26.:51:29.

reassurances when he replies to the debate, just what kind of change he

:51:30.:51:34.

envisages this mini-mid Charter Review or this mini health check or

:51:35.:51:39.

mid determine review might seek to make? In the other place, the

:51:40.:51:44.

minister said that Ofcom will have "to stand the test of time `nd prove

:51:45.:51:50.

itself". Might this mini Ch`rter Review lead to Ofcom being stripped

:51:51.:51:54.

of its regulatory function hf it doesn't stand up to some test which

:51:55.:51:58.

a minister in the other place seemed to be setting for it?

:51:59.:52:03.

What kind of review does he envisage this being? And also, when he

:52:04.:52:13.

replies in respect of Ofcom, can he give us the assurance that the

:52:14.:52:16.

secretary of state did not puite give me in my intervention darlier,

:52:17.:52:22.

about the re-sources that Ofcom are going to be given to do a

:52:23.:52:26.

considerably extended role to that which they already have? I didn t

:52:27.:52:31.

get the sense that the Right Honourable Lady did not say they

:52:32.:52:35.

would be given new resources or the resources of the existing trust We

:52:36.:52:41.

need to know what resource they will have to do this completely new job

:52:42.:52:45.

they are being given under this charter. We are going to have a new

:52:46.:52:59.

regulatory regime for the BBC, Ofcom, replacing the BBC Trtst,

:53:00.:53:03.

which there was no trust in. If I went to the doctors for a hdalth

:53:04.:53:07.

check and he found I had a horrible disease, I would expect him to take

:53:08.:53:10.

action, and I would expect the government to take action if the new

:53:11.:53:16.

regulatory regime is not working. It is an extended metaphor that the

:53:17.:53:22.

honourable gentleman has employed. I don't quite understand how ht would

:53:23.:53:26.

apply in respect of this mid-term review. I don't know why thhs

:53:27.:53:30.

mid-term review was not simply dropped. It seems that ministers

:53:31.:53:33.

have been casting about tryhng to find some kind of purpose for it.

:53:34.:53:38.

Because they didn't want to simply accept that the mid-term review

:53:39.:53:45.

Pramac the break clause, I think it started out being something

:53:46.:53:48.

different to how it has enddd up, I'm not sure what the role of that

:53:49.:53:52.

review is and I just hope that the Minister, when the winds, whll give

:53:53.:53:59.

us more reassurance. It also was said in the other place that

:54:00.:54:02.

governance would be part of that review. What kind of change is this

:54:03.:54:10.

mid-term review likely to m`ke Dorrans, if any? What extent might

:54:11.:54:17.

there be some change in the air If the government doesn't like the way

:54:18.:54:22.

the arrangements are set out in this charter are proceeding, are we going

:54:23.:54:25.

to see wholesale change in how governance of the BBC is working.

:54:26.:54:35.

What steps will the governmdnt take to make sure such arrangements are

:54:36.:54:45.

scrutinised? While we are dhscussing governance, we had a bit of an

:54:46.:54:49.

exchange around the chamber about it earlier, I welcome the fact there is

:54:50.:54:53.

to be a competition for the new chair of the BBC board. I w`s

:54:54.:55:00.

critical before the chair of the BBC Trust was appointed to what is a

:55:01.:55:03.

rather different role withott any competition at all, and at the

:55:04.:55:09.

behest, it seems, of the prdvious Prime Minister. Certainly, H

:55:10.:55:14.

suspect, not at the behest of the former secretary of State. H want to

:55:15.:55:17.

emphasise, I was not commenting and I am not commenting in any way of

:55:18.:55:23.

the abilities or otherwise of Rona Fairhead to do the job. But simply

:55:24.:55:29.

on the principle of the matter. In any event, she has decided not to

:55:30.:55:34.

put herself forward and the BBC will have a new chair. We on this side

:55:35.:55:39.

the House are mindful of wh`t the outgoing Commissioner for ptblic

:55:40.:55:42.

appointments said about the propensity of the government,

:55:43.:55:50.

increasingly to an extent, Tory supporters the public roles. We will

:55:51.:55:53.

be watching this sensitive appointment with close interest I

:55:54.:55:57.

welcome the fact the governlent have abandoned the previous Secrdtary of

:55:58.:56:01.

State's attempts to enable the government to appoint a majority of

:56:02.:56:05.

the unitary board. I think that is entirely positive. I don't believe

:56:06.:56:10.

myself that it was sensible, and I think that the retreat that the

:56:11.:56:16.

government have agreed to in conjunction with the BBC, in

:56:17.:56:20.

discussions with the BBC, is a good one. I think they could havd let

:56:21.:56:22.

themselves into criticisms which they were rather not have. H do

:56:23.:56:27.

think that is a positive development. I want to say ` little

:56:28.:56:31.

bit about the thorny topic of distinctiveness. What on earth does

:56:32.:56:36.

distinctiveness now mean in the context in which we are discussing

:56:37.:56:41.

it in relation to the chartdr? We know what the right honourable

:56:42.:56:46.

gentleman, the member for Alberman voted meant. And he really ,-

:56:47.:56:50.

reiterated his view of what it means today. We got the distinct

:56:51.:56:56.

impression that anything popular, commercial or with good rathngs

:56:57.:57:01.

would not be distinctive enough And he felt the BBC should be prevented

:57:02.:57:06.

from engaging in any kind of competition with its commercial

:57:07.:57:09.

rivals in respect of this. But what does it now mean in the context of

:57:10.:57:17.

the new charter? I think thd debtor nation in the White Paper is

:57:18.:57:20.

fiendish because substantially different can mean whatever anybody

:57:21.:57:29.

wanted to men. We should it does not relate to individual progralming. I

:57:30.:57:34.

don't think accepting some lurid newspaper stories which seeled to be

:57:35.:57:38.

coming from his department `t the time, I don't think he ever meant to

:57:39.:57:41.

say it applied to individual programming. The government has left

:57:42.:57:52.

to Ofcom. There is still a significant prospect for thhs to be

:57:53.:57:55.

used mendacious lever by politicians, perish the thotght or

:57:56.:58:01.

by the BBC commercial rivals, who may want to stop the BBC from

:58:02.:58:05.

competing with them, by makhng complaints about distinctivdness. I

:58:06.:58:13.

will give way. The member is making an important point. But would she

:58:14.:58:18.

not agree that there is an hmportant point made in this part of the

:58:19.:58:25.

charter, that the BBC, with the vast amount of money which it acpuires

:58:26.:58:31.

from the licence payer, does have an unfair advantage over the other

:58:32.:58:37.

commercial operators? There has to be some way of ensuring that

:58:38.:58:42.

advantage is not used or abtsed to stop and to prevent commerchal

:58:43.:58:45.

operators from being able to compete for a good programmes. I thhnk it's

:58:46.:58:53.

right that the BBC ought to be held to account for the way in which it

:58:54.:59:00.

spends its money. And whethdr or not its meeting its objectives `nd the

:59:01.:59:03.

requirements we have of it tnder the Charter. It is entirely fair it

:59:04.:59:07.

should be held to account for that. I don't think it's right th`t we

:59:08.:59:11.

should get into arguments over whether or not particular programmes

:59:12.:59:14.

are sufficiently distinctivd or sufficiently different. The

:59:15.:59:21.

definition is a lawyer's drdam. I do think there are concerns ovdr what

:59:22.:59:24.

that will end of meaning in practice. I want to say a lhttle bit

:59:25.:59:32.

about the contestable pot. H think the survival of that contestable pot

:59:33.:59:36.

of licence fee money is a rdtrograde step. No matter what use it is to be

:59:37.:59:42.

put to. I know there is supposed to be some kind of pilots and that

:59:43.:59:46.

commissioning children's programmes is supposed to be involved hn

:59:47.:59:49.

whatever is done with this loney from the underspend. I think the

:59:50.:59:54.

fact is that the government is establishing the principle that

:59:55.:59:57.

licence fee payers money should be handed over to the BBC commdrcial

:59:58.:00:01.

rivals to make programmes as a matter of established practhce. That

:00:02.:00:06.

is different to the BBC dechding itself that it may want to

:00:07.:00:10.

commission programming from independent producers, which of

:00:11.:00:14.

course it does a lot. That hs partly how it does its business. I think

:00:15.:00:20.

the problem is that if the contestable pot simply takes money

:00:21.:00:23.

away from the BBC and gives it to its rivals to make their own

:00:24.:00:29.

programmes without any such guarantees as the BBC would have

:00:30.:00:33.

itself of its own ethos or puality being maintained, it is simply a

:00:34.:00:38.

raid on the BBC's resources. It is no more than that. This could be the

:00:39.:00:44.

thin end of what may end up being a very large wedge. We saw newspaper

:00:45.:00:48.

reports before the White Paper was published about a contestable pot

:00:49.:00:53.

with a lot more money in it than ?60 million. Whilst it is currently

:00:54.:00:56.

small and has been identifidd from underspends as a way of using an

:00:57.:01:00.

underspend, the potential this has over time to be expanded and to

:01:01.:01:05.

establish this principle th`t the licence fee money is not to be used

:01:06.:01:12.

by the BBC to fulfil its role and its mission, I think, could be

:01:13.:01:16.

significant. I'd like to he`r some assurances from the governed that

:01:17.:01:19.

the contestable pot isn't something that is going to be vastly dxpanded

:01:20.:01:25.

during the period of this Charter review. The government. I don't

:01:26.:01:30.

think it should be proceeded with at all. I want to say a little bit

:01:31.:01:34.

before I finish about the issue of salaried transparency. We h`ve heard

:01:35.:01:40.

the argument about publishing these salaries of so-called talent in the

:01:41.:01:49.

BBC. About it being initial transparency. I understand that

:01:50.:01:54.

argument. But I just want to put an alternative viewpoint. That is that

:01:55.:01:58.

far from being about transp`rency, this is actually a tabloid dditor's

:01:59.:02:03.

dream. It is a destructive bit of punishment for anybody who wants to

:02:04.:02:07.

work with the BBC as opposed to working for a commercial

:02:08.:02:11.

broadcaster. Why is it right to invade the privacy of those who work

:02:12.:02:15.

for the BBC, Lord not those who work for any of its commercial rhvals? --

:02:16.:02:20.

but not those. The minister in the other Place said this requirement

:02:21.:02:26.

would not extend... No! I'm halfway through a sentence. I'm halfway

:02:27.:02:34.

through a sentence! I may ghve way to him in a moment. When I've

:02:35.:02:42.

finished my sentence. The problem is, why is it right that thhs

:02:43.:02:48.

requirement would not be extended to BBC studios? BBC studios will still

:02:49.:02:55.

be using public money, will still be using licence fee payers's loney.

:02:56.:03:04.

Why is it right for parts of the BBC that are in the public bit of the

:03:05.:03:09.

BBC to have to do this, when talent in other places, commissiondd by the

:03:10.:03:16.

BBC using licence fee money, doesn't? Is this really abott

:03:17.:03:21.

transparency, or is it about giving a stick to tabloid editors to have a

:03:22.:03:27.

go at the BBC? Of course I will give way. I think the point about studios

:03:28.:03:34.

is that studios are a commercial operation that will compete with

:03:35.:03:39.

other commercial operations. When the BBC commissions an independent

:03:40.:03:43.

company produce content for it, those people employed by thd

:03:44.:03:48.

independent company are not paid directly by the licence fee, and

:03:49.:03:54.

therefore their salary is not disclosed under these arrangements.

:03:55.:03:58.

We want the same arrangement for studios as independent comp`nies, to

:03:59.:04:02.

enable them to compete. We `lso need to know how much of the licdnce fee

:04:03.:04:06.

is paid to those independent companies, that then go on `nd make

:04:07.:04:10.

programmes like top gear and others, that we enjoy on the BBC. I think

:04:11.:04:17.

there are potential, perhaps unintended consequences, of this.

:04:18.:04:22.

When I was a trade unionist, the idea of comparability and trying to

:04:23.:04:24.

get a pay rise because somebody else was doing a similar job, was grist

:04:25.:04:33.

to the mill. If this leads to the costs for the BBC's front of camera

:04:34.:04:42.

talent to simply increase, H think that maybe an unintended

:04:43.:04:45.

consequence. I don't think this has thought through. I will givd way. I

:04:46.:04:51.

said I would. Clearly she mtst recognise there is a big distinction

:04:52.:04:57.

between people who are paid for by the public purse, and peopld who

:04:58.:05:01.

operate commercially in the private sector. All of our salaries in this

:05:02.:05:07.

House are publicly known, and it is entirely legitimate for the public

:05:08.:05:09.

to see where some of their loney is going as far as salaries ard

:05:10.:05:14.

concerned. I understand the point he makes. But if the ultimate bill is

:05:15.:05:21.

being paid for by the licence fee payer, why aren't they entitled to

:05:22.:05:24.

transparency in respect of seeing what the salaries are, just because

:05:25.:05:30.

it happens to be an independent producer? I don't think it hs

:05:31.:05:34.

consistent. And I think it could have unintended consequences. It

:05:35.:05:39.

seems to me to be a populist measure, which doesn't necessarily

:05:40.:05:44.

do the BBC any favours in trying to pursue, in trying to make stre that

:05:45.:05:49.

it gets the talent that is available. It also gives colmercial

:05:50.:05:55.

rivals are a lot of inside information, published information,

:05:56.:06:00.

to see what it would take to poach talent away. I don't see how that is

:06:01.:06:04.

helpful to the BBC in fulfilling its mission. I think this is a

:06:05.:06:10.

vindictive little measure and I don't see the point of pursting it.

:06:11.:06:15.

But nonetheless, the governlent have said they will do so. We will see

:06:16.:06:19.

how it goes. I think it's good that we have got to a better place with

:06:20.:06:22.

the charter review than we light have. I think from an early stage of

:06:23.:06:27.

the review process, the govdrnment seems to be contemplating shrinking

:06:28.:06:32.

and diminishing the BBC. I know they denied it. But I think it w`s

:06:33.:06:35.

they're in the background. H think if they could have got away with it,

:06:36.:06:39.

they would have done. I think, however, that the huge swell of

:06:40.:06:46.

support there has been from our constituents and in both Hotses of

:06:47.:06:48.

Parliament, has stopped thel from doing so. I think there are still

:06:49.:06:53.

potential pitfalls and problems which could end up being a luch

:06:54.:06:56.

bigger issue than they now look like they are in this charter, and we

:06:57.:07:02.

will obviously keep an high on the way in which it goes, in particular

:07:03.:07:04.

leading opted this so-called mid-term review. We will be watching

:07:05.:07:10.

to make sure the government don t go back to their original aims, in the

:07:11.:07:14.

charter review, trying to do down the BBC. And I think that on behalf

:07:15.:07:19.

of our constituents of love and value the BBC, as a great UK

:07:20.:07:25.

institution, we all hope th`t this charter does what the secretary of

:07:26.:07:28.

State now says she wishes it to do, and we will make sure that ht does.

:07:29.:07:36.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Firstly I would like to thank the

:07:37.:07:42.

Secretary of State and welcome her to this debate. I thank her for her

:07:43.:07:48.

crtion of the Select Committee's report and recommendations through

:07:49.:07:50.

the finalisation of the charter process and also to thank hdr

:07:51.:07:53.

predecessor, the Right Honotrable member for Maldon again for the

:07:54.:07:57.

consideration he gave to thd committee and its work whild he was

:07:58.:07:59.

Secretary of State in preparing the Royal Charter and also to wdlcome to

:08:00.:08:03.

his place the member for West Bromwich East. I know from our time

:08:04.:08:07.

together on the culture medha and sports committee that he'll bring

:08:08.:08:11.

passion and energy to his role and I look forward to hearing his

:08:12.:08:14.

contributions in these debates in the months and years to comd.

:08:15.:08:18.

Following on from the honourable lady's speech directly before mine,

:08:19.:08:26.

I was reminded of the great Kenneth Clarke programme civilisation, the

:08:27.:08:30.

great Art Historian, who produced in 1969 an epic series of 13 episodes

:08:31.:08:35.

of 50-minutes long, a forward began Chris Huhne June taking all about

:08:36.:08:49.

the nature -- gargantuan talking about nature. The same formtla could

:08:50.:08:53.

be applied to distinctiveness about the BBC. It's incredibly difficult

:08:54.:08:58.

to define but somehow we recognise it when we see it. We want to

:08:59.:09:04.

celebrate its creativity and ingenuity. I'm sure the honourable

:09:05.:09:08.

member would agree with me, putting Ed Balls in sparkling clothhng and

:09:09.:09:15.

making him dance peak time on a Saturday is something no other

:09:16.:09:18.

broadcaster would do. That hs something we celebrate about the

:09:19.:09:23.

uniqueness of the BBC. It's right that, along with assessing the BBC's

:09:24.:09:27.

value for money, the decisions of its executives and how much money

:09:28.:09:31.

they earn, we also continue to apply the threshold of is the BBC

:09:32.:09:35.

continuing to be true and dhstinct enough to deliver something because

:09:36.:09:39.

of the unique way in which ht's funded which no other broadcaster

:09:40.:09:42.

could do across the breadth of its programming. The BBC is one of our

:09:43.:09:46.

great national institutions and loved by everyone in this country.

:09:47.:09:51.

But it's so loved because it's adapted and changed with thd times

:09:52.:09:56.

as well, applied its creativity and ingenuity through the great

:09:57.:10:00.

breakthroughs in television, be it the Internet and the great breadth

:10:01.:10:03.

of services it offers now. Ht's moved with the times and st`yed

:10:04.:10:07.

close to its values and trud to its values. The charter renewal every

:10:08.:10:13.

decade or so, the next one being in 11 years, is again to see, not just

:10:14.:10:18.

what is best about the BBC that we should conserve and preservd, but

:10:19.:10:21.

how do we want it to adapt `nd change into the future as wdll.

:10:22.:10:24.

Clearly at the heart of this process of the charter renewal has been a

:10:25.:10:28.

desire for much greater transparency in the way the BBC operates. That is

:10:29.:10:33.

why I was pleased to see th`t the recommendation that had been made

:10:34.:10:38.

consistently by the Select Committee, the audit of the BBC

:10:39.:10:45.

applying its forensic skills, the BBC is using its resources `nd that

:10:46.:10:52.

is the right approach to take. The unity board recognises something

:10:53.:10:55.

most people had come to the conclusion of themselves th`t the

:10:56.:11:00.

BBC Trust was not fit four purpose, not fulfilling the role correctly.

:11:01.:11:06.

We can do better than that. With the dismissal of George Entwistle, we

:11:07.:11:09.

saw in a moment of crisis, the chairman of the Trust effectively

:11:10.:11:13.

becomes the chairman of the BBC and steps in the way a chairman of the

:11:14.:11:17.

board will do. It demonstrated the Trust was too conflicted to be both

:11:18.:11:22.

an external regulator and also its principal champion and a

:11:23.:11:26.

representative of the licence fee payer's interest as well. The

:11:27.:11:36.

unitary board is the best w`y to go. It was not clear who the Director

:11:37.:11:40.

General reported to. Now it's clear that whilst Editor in Chief, he has

:11:41.:11:47.

independence of operation, dxecutiv teams who answer to him and he's the

:11:48.:11:58.

chairman of the board, which is to be we could. The honourable lady

:11:59.:12:03.

mentioned in her speech before mine, that the initiative around the BBC

:12:04.:12:08.

studio's proposals, it's bedn the big initiative the BBC has got

:12:09.:12:12.

behind and wanted. The Director General was clear and I agrde with

:12:13.:12:16.

his analysis that in making the studios more competitive, more open,

:12:17.:12:22.

will help make the BBC attr`ct and hang on to some of the best creative

:12:23.:12:26.

talents that work not just on screen but in taking ideas through to

:12:27.:12:31.

production and transmission. It s the BBC recognising something that

:12:32.:12:35.

almost all other players in the TV market recognise, the futurd of

:12:36.:12:39.

television for broadcasters is not just the growth and transmission of

:12:40.:12:42.

content, it's owning and crdating the programmes and formats that can

:12:43.:12:46.

be exported around the world as well. The future of revenues and the

:12:47.:12:50.

future of its creative succdss will be tied to the success of the

:12:51.:12:56.

studio's proposals. Alongside this, and the previous Secretary of State

:12:57.:13:01.

was probably pivotal in pushing this forward, and it would chime with the

:13:02.:13:04.

thing he's said in the past, alongside the BBC having thd freedom

:13:05.:13:09.

to compete, independent companies have more freedom to competd to

:13:10.:13:15.

produce programmes at the BBC as well. We now liberalise much more of

:13:16.:13:21.

the BBC's commissioning work, including the commissioning of

:13:22.:13:24.

repeats as well, something what the BBC was not prepared to concede on

:13:25.:13:30.

before. It compliments it. We may look back, not just at the review

:13:31.:13:35.

period but the next charter renewal and say actually this creathve

:13:36.:13:38.

freedom and openness that whll come from the studio's proposals could be

:13:39.:13:41.

one of the most significant proposals and reforms that `re part

:13:42.:13:45.

of the charter renewal procdss. I would like to pick up on ond or two

:13:46.:13:49.

points that have been made by others in the debate as well, parthcularly

:13:50.:13:53.

touching on the recommendathons of the most recent Select Commhttee

:13:54.:13:56.

report. We support the decision to run a proper process for thd

:13:57.:14:00.

appointment of the chairman of the new BBC unitary board, other members

:14:01.:14:03.

have said this is a different position, it's a unique poshtion,

:14:04.:14:06.

there should have been a proper process to determine who thd best

:14:07.:14:11.

person was, the committee dhd not feel that Rhona should be excluded

:14:12.:14:16.

from that process, she chosd to exclude herself but there should

:14:17.:14:22.

have been a formal process. There'll be independent directors and it s

:14:23.:14:25.

vital we have total confidence in the way in which they were

:14:26.:14:30.

appointed. Also, to concur with the views that other members have

:14:31.:14:34.

expressed. There may be differences of opinion, but on the question of

:14:35.:14:38.

BBC salaries as well, they `lready conceded that executives got paid

:14:39.:14:41.

more than the Prime Minister and should declare what they got paid.

:14:42.:14:46.

They accepted the principle of higher paid performers, on-screen

:14:47.:14:50.

talent having their salaries declared. Licence fee payers don't

:14:51.:14:56.

understand why on-screen talent is different to off screen taldnt, that

:14:57.:15:00.

one should have to declare their salaries and the others not. It was

:15:01.:15:04.

the right thing to do and I'm pleased to see that in the final

:15:05.:15:08.

part of the charter. I thank manufacture for givhng way.

:15:09.:15:12.

He talks about the need for transparency. What wiz his view of

:15:13.:15:18.

the James Purnell interview, at a time when the BBC are bringhng out

:15:19.:15:26.

quotas, yet Mr Purnell got that job with nothing whatsoever, anxone

:15:27.:15:29.

would think the job was madd for him? I thank my right honourable

:15:30.:15:33.

friend. The post wasn't litdrally made for him and it wasn't

:15:34.:15:35.

advertised widely for other people to apply. The Right Honourable

:15:36.:15:39.

gentleman for Maldon raised this in his speech. Regardless of pdople's

:15:40.:15:45.

views of the capabilities of James Purnell or concerns may havd about

:15:46.:15:50.

his -- or concerns people m`y have about his political processds in the

:15:51.:15:53.

past. Why wasn't there compdtition within the BBC or indeed from people

:15:54.:15:57.

outside the BBC who may havd had the skills to apply for the jobs. I

:15:58.:16:02.

think if we are going to be critical about the way Rhona Fairhead was

:16:03.:16:08.

appointed to the BBC, and that was a fair and transparent process, that

:16:09.:16:11.

should apply to executives on the board as well and certainly would

:16:12.:16:15.

apply in the case of James Purnell, I agree with my right honourable

:16:16.:16:19.

friend. Would he also agree with me that part of this transparency about

:16:20.:16:24.

those who're on top salaries should also include those on contr`cts

:16:25.:16:29.

which would enable them to `void -- which enables them to avoid paying

:16:30.:16:34.

tax either by having money paid directly to them and then they only

:16:35.:16:38.

pay corporation tax on it or other tax avoidance schemes which the BBC

:16:39.:16:43.

now uses for hundreds of its employees? I tons point the

:16:44.:16:46.

honourable gentleman's making and certainly the people need to pay the

:16:47.:16:50.

taxes due for the income th`t they receive. Wherever that comes from,

:16:51.:16:55.

it applies to BBC executives as much as anyone else. I would mark what

:16:56.:16:59.

the Secretary of State said, this is something we have to keep under

:17:00.:17:04.

close review. If BBC talent are trying to use a loophole by

:17:05.:17:07.

channelling more of their income through independent producthon

:17:08.:17:11.

companies so they don't havd to declare it and that our concern is

:17:12.:17:17.

through the work of the offhce there's been acceleration and trying

:17:18.:17:21.

to get around existing rules, people should declare what they earn if

:17:22.:17:24.

it's more than ?150,000. We should look at that again if that `buse

:17:25.:17:30.

occurs. I would like to touch on the honourable gentleman, honourable

:17:31.:17:34.

member on the Select Committee, the member for East Dunbartonshhre,

:17:35.:17:38.

about the Scottish six, I w`s acting chair of the committee, I w`nted to

:17:39.:17:42.

give my view on this and significance of the Scottish six. I

:17:43.:17:47.

think we felt or certainly H felt, I hope he agrees, but I felt that what

:17:48.:17:51.

we were calling for was to give the editorial independence to the BBC in

:17:52.:17:55.

Scotland over the Six O'Clock News, that it could therefore reflect the

:17:56.:17:59.

fact that maybe certain news items that were not relevant to the

:18:00.:18:02.

Scottish audience in the sale way they were to the UK audiencd because

:18:03.:18:05.

of matters devolution but nevertheless it would be up to the

:18:06.:18:11.

editorial independence in the BBC, they would have the freedom to

:18:12.:18:14.

change the running order but it would still be a national ndws

:18:15.:18:18.

programme but broadcast and edited in Scotland with the Scottish

:18:19.:18:21.

perspective on the national news. It would still be a national ndws

:18:22.:18:25.

programme but edited and produced in Scotland and I think we also looked

:18:26.:18:31.

at the fact that in radio, the BBC's comfortable to make that decision.

:18:32.:18:37.

This is an editorial decision for the BBC to make. One of the things

:18:38.:18:43.

we need to give the BBC a shove and say you have been looking at this

:18:44.:18:46.

for a time, you have tried to change the format and make a decishon, this

:18:47.:18:50.

is our view but this remains something for you to do and I agree

:18:51.:18:56.

with the Secretary of State, I think I am right in interpreting what she

:18:57.:18:59.

said, as others discussed, that this is not a matter for the Govdrnment

:19:00.:19:03.

to mandate what to do, it's an editorial decision for the BBC to

:19:04.:19:06.

make. Finally I would like to touch on something mentioned earlher which

:19:07.:19:11.

was the question of the BBC iPlayer and removing the loophole whereby

:19:12.:19:18.

people could watch the programmes without a TV licence. This hs

:19:19.:19:31.

important. There is a more practical way to police this, licence fee

:19:32.:19:34.

payers should have a pin code to prove that they have paid the

:19:35.:19:37.

licence fee and they are a payer. This is common with other dhgital

:19:38.:19:40.

services that people are usdd to using all of the time and would be

:19:41.:19:43.

the similar interest and most logical way. It's certainly a lot

:19:44.:19:49.

easier than having digital enforcement cameras, modern versions

:19:50.:19:55.

of the TV detective van going round trying to find out whether people

:19:56.:20:00.

have licences or not. Peopld don't like the idea of licence fed payers

:20:01.:20:04.

becoming a subscriber service. This is simply acknowledging that new

:20:05.:20:08.

technology allows people thd access BBC services in different w`ys, they

:20:09.:20:13.

are still free to access news, we are just using new technology to

:20:14.:20:17.

make programmes realedly av`ilable. The idea of complimentary

:20:18.:20:21.

subscription services giving people access to streaming of other

:20:22.:20:25.

programmes that may not be `vailable at broadcast is a sensible step

:20:26.:20:29.

forward, allowing the BBC to grow revenues from the back catalogue and

:20:30.:20:34.

creating innovating programles. That is not a shift away from thd licence

:20:35.:20:40.

funded BBC, it's simply recognising new technology and platforms and

:20:41.:20:46.

tools were not here in the past This charter renewal process I would

:20:47.:20:50.

like to see the BBC take more steps forward in that direction.

:20:51.:20:56.

The renewal of the BBC charter is clearly taking place at a sdminal

:20:57.:21:00.

moment for the BBC and for the broadcasting industry in general.

:21:01.:21:06.

The dominant position of our public service broadcasters is cle`rly a

:21:07.:21:12.

challenge by net flix and Alazon prime and other broader cable and

:21:13.:21:18.

satellite TV stations. It's the case, and I said this in thd debate

:21:19.:21:23.

on diversity in the BBC, th`t it's worrying that we have seen ` trend

:21:24.:21:30.

amongst ethnic minorities in this country to return to their own

:21:31.:21:38.

certainly first generational languages, broadcasters turn away

:21:39.:21:44.

from the BBC. Clearly the BBC is in a unique position, both as `

:21:45.:21:48.

national broadcaster, but also as one of our most cherished

:21:49.:21:53.

institutions. To be right at the heart of our social fabric `nd of

:21:54.:21:59.

our shared national convers`tion. And a a time in our country where we

:22:00.:22:04.

are seeing a rise, very sadly, in hate crime, and in which I think on

:22:05.:22:09.

all sides of the House, across all political parties, there is a deep

:22:10.:22:15.

concern about a divided Britain It's really important that the BBC

:22:16.:22:19.

understands that responsibility and it's a responsibility that cuts to

:22:20.:22:23.

the heart of distinctiveness to be at the centre of that shared

:22:24.:22:27.

conversation and that manner in which we can both see reflections of

:22:28.:22:30.

ourselves. Even though I am on one sidd of the

:22:31.:22:42.

Brexit debate, I want to sed reflections of people in thhs

:22:43.:22:45.

country with an older age profile, people in this country who `re

:22:46.:22:51.

perhaps from working-class backgrounds, the sort of people who

:22:52.:22:55.

might live in some of our sdaside towns, I want to see them rdflected

:22:56.:23:02.

in the BBC, as much as I want to see so many of my constituents with over

:23:03.:23:06.

200 languages spoken in my constituency. Thank you for giving

:23:07.:23:11.

way. I entirely endorse what he has just said. Would he agree whth me

:23:12.:23:17.

that the BBC did a very good job during the referendum campahgn in

:23:18.:23:22.

holding a fair balance of both sides of the argument? Irrespective of the

:23:23.:23:26.

fact he is on one side and H on the other, does he share my slight

:23:27.:23:29.

concern that they have not been holding the balance quite so well

:23:30.:23:32.

since the referendum actually came and went? I don't think I'm going to

:23:33.:23:41.

be tempted into the BBC's coverage during the debate. But I do say

:23:42.:23:47.

genuinely that with the sal`ries that senior executives are being

:23:48.:23:52.

paid, and much adds, gold tonight, the salaries that talent is being

:23:53.:23:59.

paid, the real nature in whhch the BBC really understands, and I say

:24:00.:24:03.

this representing in north London constituency, understands bdyond

:24:04.:24:09.

North London, which -- were so many of the executives seem to lhve, and

:24:10.:24:13.

beyond West London, the trud fabric of this country and portrays it and

:24:14.:24:19.

reaches into places that ard often quite difficult and quite at odds,

:24:20.:24:24.

is genuinely important. And I think that is not just in their ndws

:24:25.:24:31.

coverage. It has to be in these sorts of documentaries that are

:24:32.:24:34.

commissioned, the sort of drama that is commissioned. And these sorts of

:24:35.:24:40.

faces that come to be the f`ces that so many British people of dhfferent

:24:41.:24:45.

backgrounds and allowing to their front living rooms during the course

:24:46.:24:54.

of any day. Back in April wd debated diversity in the BBC on the floor of

:24:55.:24:58.

this House for the first tile. And I welcome the new public purpose

:24:59.:25:02.

included in the draft royal charter published last month, which

:25:03.:25:10.

unambiguously commits the BBC to reflect, represent and servd the

:25:11.:25:14.

diverse communities of all of the United Kingdom 's nations and

:25:15.:25:18.

regions. And I'm quite sure that right across this house -- House, we

:25:19.:25:25.

celebrate that move. I should congratulate the right Honotrable

:25:26.:25:28.

member for Didcot and Wantage for his work on diversity during his

:25:29.:25:35.

time as Minister for culturd and digital economy. Overly enjoyed

:25:36.:25:43.

coming in the previous government, being minister for culture. It was

:25:44.:25:48.

my believe that there would never be a minister as good as I was.

:25:49.:26:03.

And it turns out that there was The draft BBC framework agreement

:26:04.:26:05.

further states that the BBC must make arrangements for promoting

:26:06.:26:13.

equality of opportunity, irrespective of gender, dis`bility,

:26:14.:26:17.

race or sexual orientation. Crucially the draft agreement also

:26:18.:26:20.

sets out the BBC must publish an annual report on the effecthveness

:26:21.:26:28.

of its policies for promoting equality of opportunity. Thhs is a

:26:29.:26:33.

really important point. In the 6 years since the BBC publishdd its

:26:34.:26:39.

first diversity strategy, the BBC has not published any evalu`tion of

:26:40.:26:46.

the effectiveness of its efforts. And if we are to see real progress,

:26:47.:26:51.

we must first know what works and indeed what does not work. Lembers

:26:52.:26:57.

who spoke in the debate back in April will be well aware th`t since

:26:58.:27:05.

1999, we've had 30 BBC inithatives and strategies aimed at improving

:27:06.:27:11.

the representation of black and Asian and ethnic minority

:27:12.:27:16.

communities. Yet between 2001 and 2015, a proportion of the BBC

:27:17.:27:23.

workforce from a BME background has increased by 0.9% to 13.1%, and only

:27:24.:27:33.

7.1% of the BBC senior leaddrship in TV are BME. It worries me that the

:27:34.:27:45.

BBC finds itself as one of those organisations where we routhnely

:27:46.:27:50.

hear language like, this person or that person is going to be the next

:27:51.:27:54.

Director-General. This person or that person is going to one day be

:27:55.:28:02.

head of drama. This person's at sky and we expect them to come `cross in

:28:03.:28:08.

a few years. And when you look at the profile of those people, as I

:28:09.:28:13.

say, I'm likely to bump into them if I happen to be on Muswell Hhll

:28:14.:28:18.

Broadway on Saturday afternoon. Not good enough. We shouldn't h`ve that

:28:19.:28:24.

expectation. We should be rdaching far beyond that. It's just ` bit too

:28:25.:28:30.

cosy. And we don't want that kind of cosy friends relationship, despite

:28:31.:28:38.

the nice things I said about James Pernell, who is a friend of mine. We

:28:39.:28:42.

don't want that kind of cosx relationship settling into our

:28:43.:28:47.

national broadcaster. -- Jales Pernell. With the honourabld

:28:48.:28:53.

gentleman of the the problels in encouraging more people to the BBC

:28:54.:28:59.

is very often that work expdrience positions are advertised with no

:29:00.:29:04.

pay, or not advertise that `ll. You have to be pretty well off to work

:29:05.:29:08.

for a couple of months at the BBC without earning a penny piece. It is

:29:09.:29:13.

clear enough going to be possible, is it, for a young person, or even a

:29:14.:29:21.

slightly older person who is not situated in London, who has not got

:29:22.:29:28.

parents who can put them up and see them through, to take off those

:29:29.:29:32.

opportunities. It's going to exclude swathes of people. And for that

:29:33.:29:34.

reason the standard has to be higher. In the previous deb`te there

:29:35.:29:40.

was much reflection on the other broadcasters. Some people s`id to

:29:41.:29:45.

me, why are you picking on the BBC? Let me be clear, I will alw`ys

:29:46.:29:48.

consider myself a tremendous friend of the BBC. And in terms of my own

:29:49.:29:59.

television and radio listenhng habits, I find myself const`ntly

:30:00.:30:03.

switching on the BBC, and I am really, really pleased with so much

:30:04.:30:10.

of its output. But it is to say because it is the national

:30:11.:30:13.

broadcaster, it has a higher standard. It just has a higher

:30:14.:30:22.

standard. I might just pay tribute to my good friend who is le`ving the

:30:23.:30:28.

UK to go to the United Statds, Baroness King, in the other place,

:30:29.:30:31.

who has done a great job as head of diversity at Channel 4. Has really

:30:32.:30:38.

led the way. And if Channel 4 could be quite as bold as they ard being

:30:39.:30:45.

on targets, can have a 360 `pproach, can set really clear guidelhnes to

:30:46.:30:50.

their independent producers, can be leading the way consistentlx, and

:30:51.:30:53.

not just behind the debate but leading the debate, bringing people

:30:54.:30:56.

like Idris Elba into this place to lead the public conversation, then

:30:57.:31:02.

my challenge to the BBC is we expect you to operate the same territory

:31:03.:31:07.

and to go further. And it shouldn't be really about this House leading

:31:08.:31:11.

the BBC in that direction. Ht should be the BBC to some extent ldading

:31:12.:31:17.

Kos. Leading us into that ftture way. So we do expect a highdr

:31:18.:31:27.

standard. Diversity should be embedded into the BBC. I will give

:31:28.:31:34.

way. I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. It was a

:31:35.:31:39.

point that I was going to phck-up on a minute or so ago, but somdone else

:31:40.:31:46.

intervened. It seems to me that in any large organisation, including

:31:47.:31:50.

this place, people are alwaxs identified by their peers and said,

:31:51.:31:56.

that fellow, that lady is going to go to the top. It seems a bht rich,

:31:57.:32:02.

actually, to say the BBC shouldn't do that, when actually all

:32:03.:32:06.

organisations have that sort of culture. I don't think they mean to

:32:07.:32:13.

have it. Well, the honourable gentleman is, of course, right. But

:32:14.:32:18.

it is to say that when we rdly on those statements and they come to

:32:19.:32:24.

pass, more often than not, we miss out on seeing and looking at people

:32:25.:32:28.

who don't fit the mould most often, and I say this with great rdspect,

:32:29.:32:34.

of the white, upper middle-class men who have occupied that role in the

:32:35.:32:38.

past. It might have been sahd about the leadership of his party in the

:32:39.:32:47.

mid-19 70s. So and so is gohng to do that role. Margaret Thatcher did not

:32:48.:32:51.

fit the bill. But of course you get occasionally people breaking

:32:52.:32:55.

through. But I am saying th`t really our national broadcaster has got to

:32:56.:32:58.

do a lot more. And when you look at the top leadership team, and this is

:32:59.:33:07.

now over consecutive years `nd decades, it really has been quite

:33:08.:33:15.

slow in its progress in this regard. But the crucial point here hs that

:33:16.:33:20.

we do need to see that progress in terms of the BBC's latest dhversity

:33:21.:33:29.

strategy can --,, which runs to 2020. Off-screen employment is just

:33:30.:33:32.

as important as on-screen employment, as my honourabld friend

:33:33.:33:35.

suggested in her excellent contribution. And so a placd to have

:33:36.:33:42.

a workforce at least as divdrse as any other industry is welcoled. And

:33:43.:33:46.

the make-up of senior managdment leadership positions is argtably

:33:47.:33:51.

more important than who is being hired as apprenticeships,

:33:52.:33:57.

apprentices or runners. So the targets of 50% for women, 14% for

:33:58.:34:04.

ethnic minorities, 8% for pdople with disability, 15% for LG BT

:34:05.:34:08.

individuals in leadership is an ambitious goal that represent a huge

:34:09.:34:14.

step forward. It is also important that diversity requirements are

:34:15.:34:17.

embedded into contracts with suppliers and independent production

:34:18.:34:20.

companies, commissioned to produce content. Yesterday, the BBC unveiled

:34:21.:34:26.

new commissioning guidelines that make it compulsory for independent

:34:27.:34:33.

production companies to consider diversity and state that thdre will

:34:34.:34:37.

be a conversation about divdrsity plans ahead of all commissioning

:34:38.:34:48.

decisions. One has got to ask, what does consider and a convers`tion

:34:49.:34:52.

actually mean in practice? The new guidelines use the word consider 12

:34:53.:34:59.

times but don't set out any specific minimum requirements. Except having

:35:00.:35:05.

a diversity and inclusion policy in place. In fact, the guidelines only

:35:06.:35:18.

used the word "Must" once. The BBC is committed to opening of hts

:35:19.:35:22.

budgets to independent prodtction companies by removing all existing

:35:23.:35:25.

in-house guarantees except for news and news related current affairs by

:35:26.:35:31.

the end of the current charter period. 100% of drama, comedy,

:35:32.:35:36.

entertainment except two of the opera grabs. In 2019, competition

:35:37.:35:44.

will also be introduced in Nonu 's current affairs. In this new era of

:35:45.:35:49.

the Indies, which is clearlx a period in which a discount to become

:35:50.:35:53.

very important, if the BBC hs serious about the ambitious targets,

:35:54.:36:00.

they will need to be clear `bout what is expected of independent

:36:01.:36:05.

production companies and thdir guidelines. Only requiring

:36:06.:36:08.

consideration or a conversation on diversity, I've got to say, appears

:36:09.:36:16.

weak. In contrast, Channel 4's commissioning diversity guidelines

:36:17.:36:20.

state that at least one character must be from an ethnic minority

:36:21.:36:24.

background, has a disabilitx, or is LG BT. A percentage of the

:36:25.:36:31.

production team the same. And at least one of the senior dirdctors,

:36:32.:36:34.

editors or producers is frol an ethnic minority. It is just much

:36:35.:36:42.

older -- boulder. I was watching Channel 4's National treasure last

:36:43.:36:48.

week. Wonderful, wonderful four part drama touching on that terrhble

:36:49.:36:53.

issue of sexual abuse in our society. And there was Julid

:36:54.:37:02.

Walters, wonderful. And of course her family, her grandchildrdn, it

:37:03.:37:06.

struck me as I was sitting with my wife, having put our own mixed race

:37:07.:37:12.

children to bed, two lead white characters, well-known actors, but

:37:13.:37:16.

their grandchildren were mixed race. I thought, great! They've done it.

:37:17.:37:21.

They've reflected, very gently, it wasn't central to the storyline but

:37:22.:37:24.

there it was, a reflection of my family and my children that is very

:37:25.:37:30.

rarely seen on television. That is how you do it. And that is why I am

:37:31.:37:36.

surprised that consider, thhnk about, a conversation is always had.

:37:37.:37:41.

There is been a big debate raging for some time led by Sir Lenny Henry

:37:42.:37:47.

and tribute must be paid to him There's ban 400 increase in the

:37:48.:37:51.

number of programmes being produced in the English regions sincd 20 3

:37:52.:38:00.

and outside the M25. That mtst be a good thing and we celebrate that

:38:01.:38:04.

television is being made in parts of our country where it wasn't made

:38:05.:38:08.

previously. But it comes back to the business of also embedding `nd

:38:09.:38:12.

hard-wiring diversity as a consequence of that decision. We

:38:13.:38:17.

don't want to lose out becatse of that attempt to make TV in Wales and

:38:18.:38:23.

Scotland and further and bexond I recently met with the BBC dhrector

:38:24.:38:30.

of content Charlotte Moore `nd I got a real sense of her commitmdnt to

:38:31.:38:33.

the issue but it was one th`t I really wanted to raise. Can I

:38:34.:38:36.

finally raise a point that others have pointed to, that is gohng to be

:38:37.:38:42.

the very, very important position now of Ofcom in relation to the BBC.

:38:43.:38:48.

Ofcom's Chief Executive, Sh`ron White, has recently warned that the

:38:49.:38:53.

BBC's falling short on thesd stories that reflect all of the nathons and

:38:54.:38:58.

its communities. Last year Ofcom's review of public service

:38:59.:39:01.

broadcasting found that over half of black Asian and minority ethnic

:39:02.:39:05.

viewers felt they were underrepresented in public service

:39:06.:39:08.

broadcasting, so Ofcom are `ware of the issues and it's up to the new

:39:09.:39:13.

regulator to hold the BBC to account if it falls short on its promises. I

:39:14.:39:18.

hope that in his remarks later, the minister will be able to update the

:39:19.:39:22.

House on how the Government plans to ensure that the provisions of the

:39:23.:39:26.

charter and agreement are acted on. It seems clear to me that the BBC

:39:27.:39:30.

must be required to publish full data on all elements of this

:39:31.:39:33.

diversity and equal opportunities policy and that Ofcom must `nalyse

:39:34.:39:38.

and evaluate the data to cole to a judgment on progress each ydar.

:39:39.:39:43.

Another important point is whether the BBC's targets, which ard after

:39:44.:39:48.

all only an aspiration, shotld be combined with a minimum standard or

:39:49.:39:52.

benchmark. So I hope the minister can today confirm that the

:39:53.:39:56.

Government will call on Ofcom to set the minimum standards for BBC

:39:57.:40:01.

diversity both in terms of on screen portrayal and off screen employment.

:40:02.:40:06.

With that, of course, I think we've got real progress then to the

:40:07.:40:10.

centrality of this issue in the charter and I congratulate the

:40:11.:40:14.

Government for achieving th`t. This is an important moment for our

:40:15.:40:20.

country, emphasised so much by the social division that I think exists

:40:21.:40:24.

in Britain at this point in our history. We don't want to sde ethnic

:40:25.:40:30.

minorities turn into first language stations abroad, we do need that

:40:31.:40:35.

national conversation as colplex, rich and difficult as it soletimes

:40:36.:40:39.

is, frankly. There are a lot of people paid quite a lot of loney to

:40:40.:40:42.

get this right. This is a pdriod where we need to get it right so

:40:43.:40:47.

that I'm not here in five ydars time having the same debate about

:40:48.:40:51.

ringfencing targets and the BBC taking diversity seriously.

:40:52.:41:00.

I'm most grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the chance to speak in

:41:01.:41:03.

this important debate and I may say how much I welcome the publhcation

:41:04.:41:08.

of the draft charge. It's worth recalling that at various points

:41:09.:41:12.

during the run-up to the ch`rter, there was debate about whether we'd

:41:13.:41:16.

have to extend the charter hn order to give us time to cover all the

:41:17.:41:19.

bases, as it Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It's a great test`ment to

:41:20.:41:23.

the Secretary of State who H see in his place on the back benchds, that

:41:24.:41:30.

from an election in May 2014 to today, October 2016, we havd a draft

:41:31.:41:39.

charter in front of us. It's a great testament to him that he dodsn't

:41:40.:41:42.

have two horns on his head `nd he's not carrying a pitchfork and he s

:41:43.:41:46.

not here to Consign for the BBC to the depth of hell and nor w`s he

:41:47.:41:51.

intending to do that when hd was the Secretary of State. I have to say, I

:41:52.:41:55.

have absolutely no time at `ll with those who think that the prdvious

:41:56.:41:59.

Secretary of State, my right honourable friend the member for

:42:00.:42:01.

Maldon, came into office with an agenda to bury the BBC and that

:42:02.:42:06.

somehow he was seen off by the might of 38 degrees and the effectiveness

:42:07.:42:12.

of the Labour frontbench. Nothing could be further from the truth In

:42:13.:42:17.

fact, my right honourable friend is a great supporter of the BBC and he

:42:18.:42:24.

merely made some fairly deeply obvious points which is that we were

:42:25.:42:28.

going for a Charter Review `nd the whole point was to examine what the

:42:29.:42:33.

BBC does on whether it could be helped to do things better. I used

:42:34.:42:38.

to joke that we could do thd BBC Charter Review within 24 hotrs, but

:42:39.:42:42.

we took slightly longer. As honourable members now know, the

:42:43.:42:46.

Charter Review does not shake the BBC to its core foundations but

:42:47.:42:50.

makes some very welcome and long overdue changes. One of the biggest

:42:51.:42:54.

issues we did have to look `t was whether or not the licence fee was

:42:55.:42:58.

sustainable, a perfectly rational thing to look at and it bec`me

:42:59.:43:03.

pretty leer that the licencd fee, like democracy, was the least worse

:43:04.:43:07.

of the options in front of ts. Nevertheless, my right honotrable

:43:08.:43:11.

friend has introduced the opportunity for the BBC to trial

:43:12.:43:15.

subscription services and hd's quite right to have done that bec`use the

:43:16.:43:20.

BBC, as has been mentioned `lready, will face extraordinary competition,

:43:21.:43:23.

not from its terrestrial broadcast rivals, but from the likes of net

:43:24.:43:29.

flix, Amazon, Facebook, Apple and Google and it's right that hn a

:43:30.:43:32.

digital age it should start tolike at how best to raise its income and

:43:33.:43:41.

to distribute its content. Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, Apple and Google

:43:42.:43:44.

and it's right that in a digital age it should start tolike at how best

:43:45.:43:46.

to raise its income and to distribute its content. Othdr issues

:43:47.:43:49.

I want to mention. Not many honourable members have touched on

:43:50.:43:51.

radio. We forget too easily when we talk about the Poldarks or the Ed

:43:52.:43:55.

Balls on Strictly that actu`lly a major part of the BBC's output is on

:43:56.:44:02.

radio and particularly for ts in this house, BBC local radio is

:44:03.:44:06.

extremely important. All those who huff and puff and say I wouldn't pay

:44:07.:44:11.

my licence fee for this kind of nonsense are only too happy to wake

:44:12.:44:15.

up to the Today programme in the morning and two to bed with Radio

:44:16.:44:25.

Two news. On the subject of James Purnell I

:44:26.:44:30.

don't have a problem with hhm being an old lefty. What I have a problem

:44:31.:44:37.

with is that he doesn't belheves in digital radio, Madam Deputy Speaker.

:44:38.:44:41.

I'm a passionate supporter of digital radio. James thinks that

:44:42.:44:45.

everything is going to go on to the Internet. My right-wing fridnds

:44:46.:44:49.

should probably want to see James Purnell appointed Director General

:44:50.:44:54.

of the BBC because he'd probably put the entire BBC Online within 24

:44:55.:44:57.

hours of being appointed. I would urge James if watching this debate

:44:58.:45:01.

online to back digital radio and to support it because I think digital

:45:02.:45:05.

radio will be the medium by which we listen to radio. It's at a tipping

:45:06.:45:09.

point and we need the BBC as a senior partner in it. May I also

:45:10.:45:14.

say, as port of the whole conspiracy theory debate, I also welcole my

:45:15.:45:17.

right honourable friend's ddcision to input a mid term review hnto the

:45:18.:45:25.

licence fee because into thd charter rather, because as I've alrdady

:45:26.:45:28.

said, the quick technology changes that are happening at the moment, a

:45:29.:45:32.

mid term review will be extremely welcome to see again whether a

:45:33.:45:36.

subsequent Government can m`ke changes that will help the BBC.

:45:37.:45:42.

I want to touch on four key aspects of the whole charter debate. First

:45:43.:45:46.

of all the issue of Ofcom regulation, part of my quip about

:45:47.:45:50.

how we could do the BBC Charter Review in 24 hours. It seems to me

:45:51.:45:55.

the biggest fundamental change that everyone was agreed the BBC Trust

:45:56.:45:58.

didn't work and should be rdplaced by Ofcom regulation. May I hn

:45:59.:46:01.

particular praise the minister and the Secretary of State in hdr

:46:02.:46:04.

absence and indeed the Primd Minister who I think were qtite

:46:05.:46:09.

right when they came into office to say that the chairman of thd new BBC

:46:10.:46:16.

board should be appointed bx an open process and again, to echo the words

:46:17.:46:20.

that were said by the honourable member for Wallasey, that is not a

:46:21.:46:24.

criticism of Rhona Fairhead but I think it was wrong that there was

:46:25.:46:28.

not an open process to appohnt the chairman of a very entirely new body

:46:29.:46:33.

and aisle mazed there'll now be such an open process. It's also obvious

:46:34.:46:38.

that the BBC board is compldtely independent. It always was

:46:39.:46:43.

independent, even under my right honourable friend's proposals before

:46:44.:46:48.

the change of Government but it s clearly even more independent for

:46:49.:46:51.

the benefit of the conspiracy theorists who think we want to take

:46:52.:46:56.

over the BBC. In terms of how Ofcom does regulate the BBC, I wotld urge

:46:57.:46:59.

the Government to be as flexible as possible in the detail about how

:47:00.:47:05.

Ofcom goes about that task. Sharon White as the Chief Executivd of

:47:06.:47:10.

Ofcom, will do a superb job, I have no doubt. I would watch out for a

:47:11.:47:16.

trojan horse, those who belheve in press freedom, if Ofcom is going to

:47:17.:47:24.

regulate the BBC, we'll havd to look carefully at how it handles the

:47:25.:47:27.

print content. I don't want the see regular lace come in via thd back

:47:28.:47:31.

door through Ofcom regulating what the BBC does online, I want to see

:47:32.:47:36.

it regulate the BBC's broadcast content television and radio. A

:47:37.:47:41.

great deal of this debate to my intense pleasure has focussdd on the

:47:42.:47:45.

issue of diversity and I th`nk the honourable member for Tottenham

:47:46.:47:47.

about his kind words of what I've done and I return the favour as I

:47:48.:47:50.

would for my right honourable friend from Maidstone if she were hn the

:47:51.:47:53.

chamber about the work they've done on diversity and so many others As

:47:54.:47:56.

my right honourable friend, many member for Maldon will confhrm, not

:47:57.:48:01.

a meeting went by on the BBC without me banging on about diversity and I

:48:02.:48:07.

am very pleased indeed to sde that it is one of the six purposds that

:48:08.:48:14.

has a very prominent point. I want to praise all the other campaigners,

:48:15.:48:21.

in particular Simon auldburx for broadcast equality on the work that

:48:22.:48:25.

they have done. We have madd progress. I was talking to the

:48:26.:48:31.

playwright and theatre director when he came over a few weeks ago, his

:48:32.:48:40.

play, One Night in Miami is now on in London. He said having bden in

:48:41.:48:43.

Baltimore for five years, coming back he sees a change. That is

:48:44.:48:48.

anecdotal. We must keep the pressure on to ensure we see greater

:48:49.:48:52.

diversity. We are not talking simply about black and minority ethnic

:48:53.:48:57.

diversity, nor indeed about gender equality, it's very important to

:48:58.:49:00.

emphasise the greater diversity we need to see in terms of the

:49:01.:49:04.

representation of people with disabilities who're too oftdn

:49:05.:49:07.

forgotten in this very important debate and they must come alongside

:49:08.:49:12.

this debate. We have to makd real progress and I do think we have

:49:13.:49:17.

reached a tipping point bec`use the backlash has begun and we do see

:49:18.:49:20.

extraordinary newspaper headlines for example suggesting that the

:49:21.:49:25.

BBC's antiwhite because it wants to promeet diversity, nothing could be

:49:26.:49:30.

further from the truth. Even if there was a moral c`se for

:49:31.:49:34.

diversity and equality, there should be an economic case for every

:49:35.:49:38.

broadcaster because I think, as the honourable gentleman for Tottenham

:49:39.:49:42.

indicated, they are losing audiences, catastrophically when it

:49:43.:49:47.

comes to the younger generation the 18-24-year-old generation who're

:49:48.:49:50.

moving online and the audiences will move to where the content is which

:49:51.:49:54.

appeals most to them. If people don't see people who look lhke

:49:55.:49:57.

themselves on-screen, or thdy don't hear the stories that are written

:49:58.:50:01.

and produced by people like themselves, they'll turn off in

:50:02.:50:05.

their droves and go online to where that content exists. It's an

:50:06.:50:09.

economic necessity and we c`n make progress and again the great irony

:50:10.:50:13.

the honourable gentleman for Tottenham praised Channel 4, the

:50:14.:50:16.

great irony for me considerhng the tone of so much of this deb`te we

:50:17.:50:22.

have about broadcasting is Sky that was the pioneer and the gre`t man

:50:23.:50:26.

Stuart Murphy who's since ldft, not under a cloud, but because he wanted

:50:27.:50:30.

to write a novel I think, btt he was the one who simply said these are

:50:31.:50:33.

the targets we are going to meet them and he just got on with it I'm

:50:34.:50:37.

pleased to see the progress we have made on diversity. As many

:50:38.:50:41.

honourable members have emphasised, the proof in the pudding will be in

:50:42.:50:47.

the eating. May I turn to the competitive fund. I have given the

:50:48.:50:53.

honourable member notice th`t I will give it a good kicking. I hope the

:50:54.:50:59.

member will stamp his authority on this by ditching the compethtive

:51:00.:51:02.

fund. As my right honourabld friend knows, I argued strongly ag`inst it

:51:03.:51:06.

behind closed doors and now liberated on to the back benches, I

:51:07.:51:11.

can make my opposition to it public. It seems to me neither fish nor

:51:12.:51:15.

foul, it's too small to takd on the BBC. If you really think th`t having

:51:16.:51:21.

one gatekeeper, one public service gatekeeper is FA few and yot want

:51:22.:51:25.

two, you should take ?500 mhllion from the BBC, I don't want to give

:51:26.:51:29.

the minister any ideas. ?20 million is not enough, it's merely `n

:51:30.:51:34.

irritant. It will create for those critics of the BBC a new BBC, a new

:51:35.:51:40.

bureaucracy. That will prob`bly produce content that nobody wants to

:51:41.:51:48.

see. It will also give thosd people excuses and the BBC excuses. People

:51:49.:51:52.

have mentioned how important it is for diverse or children's contevent.

:51:53.:51:55.

I want the BBC to make children s content and diverse content. I want

:51:56.:51:59.

to see all the public service broadcasters make that contdnt. I

:52:00.:52:03.

don't in two or three years' time be sitting with an execstive s`ying

:52:04.:52:09.

that's the job of the content competitive fund -- executive. I

:52:10.:52:12.

want that on the main screen, so don't let it let broadcasters off

:52:13.:52:14.

the hook. I am a practical man, so if the

:52:15.:52:24.

Minister is intent on pursuhng that, may I suggest he gives it to the

:52:25.:52:29.

British film Institute, who do at least have experience in aw`rding

:52:30.:52:32.

public money to make brilli`nt British films, and also havd a very

:52:33.:52:37.

strong commitment to write ,- to diversity. And finally, let me also

:52:38.:52:42.

comment on why there's been a theme throughout this debate. The movement

:52:43.:52:47.

of the free license fee for the over 75s to the BBC. The BBC has been

:52:48.:52:52.

raided on a number of occashon and the arguments for the raid varied in

:52:53.:52:59.

their strength. The raid by the last Labour government to pay for it

:53:00.:53:03.

digital switchover was potentially justified because it was essentially

:53:04.:53:08.

saying, the BBC should help to meet the costs of a change that will

:53:09.:53:14.

benefit the BBC. I give awax. I am grateful. One of the more worrying

:53:15.:53:23.

raids or trades of BBC taking on funding in return for having the

:53:24.:53:28.

licence fee was the decision that the BBC should not longer rdceive

:53:29.:53:33.

funding directly from government for that prised open source intdlligence

:53:34.:53:42.

asset, BBC monitoring. Can H appeal through him, to the secretary of

:53:43.:53:46.

state in her absence, that no decision should be taken to

:53:47.:53:51.

implement the recommendation to close down Caversham Park and

:53:52.:53:58.

radically reduce the funding for BBC monitoring, as is currently

:53:59.:54:03.

proposed, until both the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and the

:54:04.:54:06.

defence select committee have taken the opportunity to visit Caversham

:54:07.:54:12.

Park, as we have been invitdd by her honourable friend, a fellow

:54:13.:54:16.

minister, our honourable frhend for Reading East, and that this is a

:54:17.:54:23.

matter of the greatest concdrn. This is a reduction in funding that was

:54:24.:54:27.

entirely to be anticipated `nd should not have occurred.

:54:28.:54:41.

LAUGHTER. Quite a few of my constituents do

:54:42.:54:45.

work at Caversham and have been in touch with me to get -- to dxpress

:54:46.:54:49.

their concerns. May I thank my honourable friend for his vdry

:54:50.:54:53.

welcome intervention and echo his call, and hope the Minister will

:54:54.:54:58.

pass on to his colleagues the need to hear his sagacious views and

:54:59.:55:01.

those of his colleagues on the select committee, but the ftture of

:55:02.:55:04.

monitoring at Caversham and how it should be funded and analysdd. Back

:55:05.:55:09.

to some of the other raids on the BBC. The digital infrastructure raid

:55:10.:55:14.

was perhaps justified. We then took the under spend and spend it on

:55:15.:55:17.

broadband. If the Minister hs clever enough not to proceed with the

:55:18.:55:23.

funding, I know he has made incredibly rapid progress shnce he

:55:24.:55:27.

became Minister in rolling out broadband, and he will want to get

:55:28.:55:30.

to that 100% by the end of next year, that is his new target. Just

:55:31.:55:38.

thought I'd throw that in there Everybody said I was so useless at

:55:39.:55:43.

the job. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you. This is turning into a

:55:44.:55:52.

pantomime, Madam Deputy Spe`ker Hole, no it isn't! -- oh! The second

:55:53.:56:05.

rate was undertaken by the new Secretary of State, the Right

:56:06.:56:08.

Honourable member for Surrex South West, and myself, when we dhd the

:56:09.:56:11.

licence fee, when we froze the licence fee in 2010, and th`t was

:56:12.:56:16.

taking the cost of the World Service on to be BBC books. That was

:56:17.:56:19.

marginally justified in the sense that you could see some savhngs to

:56:20.:56:23.

be made, operational savings to be made. The government has now started

:56:24.:56:29.

to fund the World Service separately. The third raid was the

:56:30.:56:33.

over 75s raid, which we mithgated by taking some of the other costs off

:56:34.:56:39.

the BBC. The member for Maldon, the man who was supposedly going to bury

:56:40.:56:43.

the BBC, secured from the government and increasing the licence free --

:56:44.:56:50.

licence fee. But the fundamdntal point is that these were rahds. I

:56:51.:56:55.

think it is quite ironic th`t successive governments, and indeed

:56:56.:57:00.

the BBC, have resisted a st`tutory basis for the BBC because it is seen

:57:01.:57:06.

as undermining the independdnce of the BBC. And yet without a statutory

:57:07.:57:11.

underpinning for the BBC, it is effectively down to the whil of

:57:12.:57:15.

ministers and how far they `re prepared to go to effectively

:57:16.:57:22.

bullied the BBC how much money they may take out of the licence fee

:57:23.:57:27.

Over the past decade or so, I think too many ministers, including

:57:28.:57:30.

myself, have seen the licence fee as a part from which they can

:57:31.:57:36.

occasionally dip. I don't propose a solution in this debate. I simply

:57:37.:57:43.

wanted to raise it. Two words not necessarily the government, but this

:57:44.:57:48.

House to think hard over thd coming years, about how we protect the BBC.

:57:49.:57:55.

As some ministers have said, summoning members have said, the BBC

:57:56.:57:59.

is a great treasure. It shotld be funded independently, it should be

:58:00.:58:03.

funded to get on with the job. It should have light touch regtlation

:58:04.:58:07.

to adapt to the rapidly changing technologies that we see dolinating

:58:08.:58:14.

our lives now. I conclude bx saying that I personally feel that this

:58:15.:58:20.

draft BBC Charter gets pretty much everything right. I would lhke to

:58:21.:58:25.

commend my right honourable friend, the former Secretary of State, I

:58:26.:58:32.

would like to apologise for giving a kicking to one our two of hhs pet

:58:33.:58:37.

projects, but overall he did an absolutely superb project -, job,

:58:38.:58:40.

particularly in terms of thd timetable Lee had to complete. I

:58:41.:58:46.

would like to also praised his officials, mainly because they are

:58:47.:58:49.

glaring me from -- staring `t me from the box. May I commend the

:58:50.:58:55.

Minister and the new Secret`ry of State for the very able way in which

:58:56.:58:58.

they have taken forward that draft charter.

:58:59.:59:02.

Order. There is plenty of thme for this debate this afternoon, but as

:59:03.:59:10.

the House will be aware, grdat many people have indicated they would

:59:11.:59:15.

like to take part. By self-denying ordinance, every honourable member

:59:16.:59:18.

behaves honourably and speaks for approximately ten minutes or just

:59:19.:59:24.

over, then everyone will have an equal chance to participate in the

:59:25.:59:28.

debate. If that doesn't work, I will have to impose a timetable.

:59:29.:59:34.

Helen Goodman. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like

:59:35.:59:37.

to begin by saying that I chaired the all-party group for the NUJ And

:59:38.:59:46.

the secretariat is included in my register in the register of members

:59:47.:59:52.

interests. It is, of course, a great pleasure to follow the membdr for

:59:53.:59:58.

Wantage, who, as honourable members know, was an extremely able and

:59:59.:00:04.

successful Minister at DC MS. I think he held the post of Mhnister

:00:05.:00:08.

for the arts for a record shx years. And he demonstrated again this

:00:09.:00:15.

afternoon that with wit and charm he is able to defend some really quite

:00:16.:00:19.

poor policies. LAUGHTER.

:00:20.:00:28.

Well... When we talk about the BBC, we are talking about a really first

:00:29.:00:34.

class institution. But I fedl that the BBC is now at risk. The vision

:00:35.:00:40.

of Lord Rees was to educate, inform and entertain. Everybody knows that.

:00:41.:00:46.

Free from political interference and commercial pressure. Now we have got

:00:47.:00:59.

a much weaker commitment to reflect the UK, its culture and valtes, to

:01:00.:01:06.

the world. And a large part of this document, which I thought w`s a very

:01:07.:01:10.

strange document when I read it a large part of this draft agreement

:01:11.:01:17.

between the secretary of st`te and the BBC is, in fact, on what

:01:18.:01:21.

limitations there will be on the BBC's independence, and how it is

:01:22.:01:29.

going to fulfil its role in a competitive environment. We seem to

:01:30.:01:33.

be moving very rapidly from Lord Rees's vision. There is an darly

:01:34.:01:41.

section in the document on the role of the BBC as a UK public sdrvice

:01:42.:01:47.

and the public interest test. And the document says, the BBC lust

:01:48.:01:51.

consider public value relathve to any adverse impact on competition.

:01:52.:02:01.

In other words, when it makds changes to its delivery of the

:02:02.:02:06.

public services, set out in the document, its first thought is not

:02:07.:02:09.

the impact on listeners, vidwers or citizens, but on its compethtors.

:02:10.:02:17.

I'm afraid I do think that that does rather undermined the distinctive

:02:18.:02:21.

role of the BBC. When the Sdcretary of State was appointed, I thought

:02:22.:02:27.

this was a really positive appointment and I thought wd would

:02:28.:02:31.

have somebody here who hadn't spent years in the media milia and would

:02:32.:02:38.

bring a fresh approach. I w`s therefore extremely disappohnted to

:02:39.:02:41.

discover that she appointed as her special adviser, the former chief

:02:42.:02:47.

political correspondent of the sun newspaper. And this obsession with

:02:48.:02:55.

the impact of the BBC on thd other broadcasters does seem to md to

:02:56.:02:59.

suggest that the hand of Murdoch is evident in the document. Let me look

:03:00.:03:04.

at some of the specifics in the document. Clause 67 in the `greement

:03:05.:03:12.

is entitled, defence and emdrgency arrangements. It covers far more

:03:13.:03:17.

than just defence and emergdncy In it, there is no limit to thd

:03:18.:03:23.

government's power of censorship. And it is possible the government

:03:24.:03:26.

could interfere with editorhal judgments and broadcasting content.

:03:27.:03:32.

Let's look again at the section on competition. Obviously it is the

:03:33.:03:39.

case that the BBC, supported by public money in the form of the

:03:40.:03:43.

licence fee, is in a special position, and there are risks to

:03:44.:03:51.

abusing their position. There was a long-standing argument about whether

:03:52.:03:56.

the listener was competing tnfairly with the new statesman, the

:03:57.:03:59.

Economist and other weekly `nd monthly magazines. And now this

:04:00.:04:04.

argument has moved over to be an argument about whether its web

:04:05.:04:13.

content is competing unfairly. But what is strange about this charter,

:04:14.:04:18.

and where I think this charter goes wrong, is that it moves frol the

:04:19.:04:25.

margins, from a small probldm, which was acknowledged and needed to be

:04:26.:04:30.

dealt with, placing this issue of the position of the competitor right

:04:31.:04:36.

the centre of BBC decision-laking. When it is taking decisions about

:04:37.:04:43.

public services. So the BBC will have to consider the positive and

:04:44.:04:47.

negative market impact of its activities, and Ofcom must keep this

:04:48.:04:54.

in mind when reviewing new `nd changed services. There must be a

:04:55.:04:58.

concern that commercial bro`dcasters will be able to launch anti

:04:59.:05:06.

challenges against the BBC. Including, to existing programmes

:05:07.:05:12.

and scheduling. The member for Wantage talked about radio. They

:05:13.:05:16.

raise a particular concern `bout what is proposed for BBC radio,

:05:17.:05:25.

Madam Deputy Speaker. At thd moment, the BBC contracts out to thd private

:05:26.:05:30.

sector the production of 20$ of radio programmes. It is proposed

:05:31.:05:38.

that by 2022, at least 60% of BBC radio programmes will be contracted

:05:39.:05:49.

out. Now that is a massive, massive change in the way that radio

:05:50.:05:52.

programmes are made. And I'l concerned about this from two points

:05:53.:05:59.

of view. First of all, and lost importantly, obviously, in what

:06:00.:06:04.

sense will be have BBC Radio one with its characteristic and

:06:05.:06:07.

distinctive quality, if mord than half macro of it is produced in the

:06:08.:06:14.

private sector? And the second of all, there is the question `bout the

:06:15.:06:20.

practical feasibility of dohng this, and whether, when more than half the

:06:21.:06:24.

radio programmes are made bx external producers, what will happen

:06:25.:06:32.

is that the BBC's own in-hotse capacity is limited. Other

:06:33.:06:38.

Honourable members concerned about this might like to see EDM 6555

:06:39.:06:46.

which is on the order paper now And sign it. The performance of the last

:06:47.:06:54.

BBC Trust does seem to me to have been absolutely abysmal. And I'm

:06:55.:06:59.

sorry to say, I don't think it was about structures. I think that was

:07:00.:07:03.

about the people who were in those positions. I think it was completely

:07:04.:07:11.

irresponsible of them to take on responsibility for the free licenses

:07:12.:07:13.

of people over 75. I don't think the new unitary board

:07:14.:07:26.

which includes five Governmdnt appointees, can truly be sahd to be

:07:27.:07:31.

independent. The member for Wantage pointed out that there had been a

:07:32.:07:37.

lot of top slicing, and in fact since 2010, taking account of the

:07:38.:07:42.

freeze on the licence fee and the constant slicing away for dhfferent

:07:43.:07:49.

purposes, the BBC has had a real terms cut of 25% which is extremely

:07:50.:07:55.

significant. I'm pleased th`t the NAO is going to be involved in

:07:56.:08:00.

looking at whether or not the BBC is properly managed since it sdems to

:08:01.:08:05.

me the major problems with the BBC are about management, not editorial.

:08:06.:08:11.

I hope vfl that this contracting out, this contracting out is not

:08:12.:08:16.

going to simply be a mechanhsm for people to evade the scrutinx of high

:08:17.:08:22.

pay. The Secretary of State began her speech by saying that the BBC is

:08:23.:08:28.

a trusted, valued, much-lovdd institution, not just here hn

:08:29.:08:33.

Britain, but across the world. I regret to say that those fine

:08:34.:08:39.

words do not seem to me to be supported with an ploech to the

:08:40.:08:43.

charter -- approach to the charter which preserves the BBC fred from

:08:44.:08:46.

commercial pressure and polhtical interference.

:08:47.:08:56.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker As many of us here this afternoon,

:08:57.:09:00.

we've all expressed that thd BBC is indeed one of our most beloved

:09:01.:09:06.

cultural institutions. Each of us will have fond memories of the TV

:09:07.:09:10.

shows that made us laugh and cry and those that have educated and

:09:11.:09:14.

inspired us. To this very d`y, some of the world's most famous TV

:09:15.:09:18.

programmes call the BBC its home or can at least trace its roots back to

:09:19.:09:22.

it. The BBC also has the proud record of

:09:23.:09:28.

supporting and cultivating some of Britain's most treasured

:09:29.:09:31.

personalities and actors. Plus, with the BBC's global reach, all of this

:09:32.:09:37.

goes a significant way forw`rd to promoting our place in the world. It

:09:38.:09:43.

is perhaps the largest exporter of our cultural values, viewed by

:09:44.:09:47.

hundreds and millions of people Some might even say it's our best

:09:48.:09:54.

soft power asset. However, domestic and global habits continue to change

:09:55.:10:00.

and for the BBC's importancd to be maintained, it needs to change with

:10:01.:10:05.

it. Our BBC is not perfect `nd it has long needed action to address

:10:06.:10:09.

the governance issues and change in viewing habits. I was pleasdd the

:10:10.:10:18.

issues were highlighted by parties at the start of the negotiations in

:10:19.:10:23.

2015. It's the time to see them addressed and sluices approved. Like

:10:24.:10:29.

many honourable members, I've received tremendous number of

:10:30.:10:32.

representations from constituents concerned about the BBC's ftture.

:10:33.:10:39.

Given the licence fee paid, we have a rightful station in the

:10:40.:10:42.

institution and I'm pleased the issue of a new Royal Charter has

:10:43.:10:45.

been taken seriously and positively by the Government. Under thd draft

:10:46.:10:52.

agreement I see the BBC that suits the modern broadcasting and digital

:10:53.:10:56.

environment we know today. Ladam Deputy Speaker, I know much has been

:10:57.:10:59.

raised around the new Government structure of the BBC. Real progress

:11:00.:11:04.

has been made on the subject of appointments to the BBC board since

:11:05.:11:09.

the publication of the Whitd Paper through discarbon emission `nd

:11:10.:11:15.

consultation with the BBC. That the BBC will appoint the large lajority

:11:16.:11:19.

of the board members for thd first time is indeed a positive mdasure

:11:20.:11:23.

that clearly maintains to md its independence. It is right that all

:11:24.:11:30.

nations that make up the Unhted Kingdom are represented on the BBC

:11:31.:11:33.

board and that these individuals are subject to the public appointments

:11:34.:11:40.

process. It's also right th`t those appointments should not be subject

:11:41.:11:44.

to political significance. Ht's also right that Government retains a role

:11:45.:11:48.

in appointing non-executive directors to board of a bodx that

:11:49.:11:53.

spends ?3.7 billion public loney each year. We are talking about huge

:11:54.:11:58.

sums that have to be justifhed. We cannot allow waste or a lack of

:11:59.:12:03.

openness when it is the public who have such a sizeable stake. Yet with

:12:04.:12:09.

the expanded role of the National Audit Office and Ofcom as overseers

:12:10.:12:14.

of the BBC's financial and content scrutiny, I am certain we whll

:12:15.:12:19.

maintain the credibility expected of our public service broadcaster.

:12:20.:12:24.

Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC is a huge part of our past, our present

:12:25.:12:31.

and our future. The new charter and agreement will enable the

:12:32.:12:34.

improvements that are ultim`tely addressed to the important hssues of

:12:35.:12:40.

governance and modernisation whilst ensuring its independence and

:12:41.:12:44.

enhancing the distinctiveness of its content. I am therefore ple`sed to

:12:45.:12:51.

support this motion that will guarantee the BBC's importance place

:12:52.:12:54.

in our Society for Many years to come.

:12:55.:13:02.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It's a pleasure to follow the member

:13:03.:13:06.

for Rochester and Strood. I bumped into her predecessor in the Welsh

:13:07.:13:12.

Assembly which he's a member of I didn't know he has such links to

:13:13.:13:18.

Wales. It would be remiss of me not to mention the honourable mdmber for

:13:19.:13:25.

Wantage, one of the longest serving arts ministers in this placd. I m

:13:26.:13:30.

sure if it doesn't work out for James Purnell at the BBC, I'm sure

:13:31.:13:40.

the Lord will be on the phone to him very soon. Those standing for chair

:13:41.:13:46.

committee for Culture, Medi` and Sport, I wouldn't be cruel dnough to

:13:47.:13:53.

say it's like Clinton and Trump but the house will be well servdd. Who

:13:54.:13:59.

is who ex-exactly. The NHS like any other well loved institution, the

:14:00.:14:03.

BBC is used sometimes both by left and right to be a political

:14:04.:14:08.

football. Sometimes any obsdrver gets the feeling that some

:14:09.:14:11.

politicians who're just waiting for the BBC to slip up so they can use

:14:12.:14:15.

it as a stick with which to beat them. Like any organisation in the

:14:16.:14:20.

public sector or indeed the private sector, there are bound to be areas

:14:21.:14:24.

where the BBC are going to get it wrong. However, it's surely wrong in

:14:25.:14:30.

a free society which holds tp the concept of freedom of the press that

:14:31.:14:34.

journalists, like Laura Kuenssberg, who're simply doing their job of

:14:35.:14:43.

holding our political meets to account, subject to vile abtse on

:14:44.:14:46.

social media. Equally, for those on the right who say that the BBC has

:14:47.:14:52.

some sort of lefty bias, I like to remind them of the Ofcom report

:14:53.:14:56.

recently which threw out 71 individual complaints against the

:14:57.:15:00.

leader of the Labour Party. Also my message for those who may bd knew to

:15:01.:15:03.

the political scene motivatdd by certain individuals, that they have

:15:04.:15:07.

to learn the lesson that politics is a rough old trade and journ`lists

:15:08.:15:12.

who ask tough questions are simply doing their job. As my wife, who was

:15:13.:15:18.

once the head of public aff`irs for the BBC, Julia, has told me often

:15:19.:15:23.

enough, that she believed on both sides are screaming bias at one

:15:24.:15:27.

another, the BBC must surelx be doing something right. Madal Deputy

:15:28.:15:31.

Speaker, when we look around the world and see the state of state

:15:32.:15:37.

media, then the BBC we should be particularly proud that thex are the

:15:38.:15:41.

home of imth impartiality. To me, it's vitally important the BBC

:15:42.:15:47.

maintains its independence of Government, not merely from a

:15:48.:15:50.

freedom of press view, but cultural as well. We are indeed forttnate, we

:15:51.:15:55.

don't have some of the shock Jocks or Fox News we find on the other

:15:56.:15:59.

side of the pond. Indeed it's important we don't have a British

:16:00.:16:05.

version of Howard stern or Sean Hanady whose vile right-wing views

:16:06.:16:10.

are seen as the legitimate political comments. Indeed, we should take it

:16:11.:16:16.

as a compliment that that ptrr valor of press freedom Rupert Murdoch s

:16:17.:16:20.

called his own Sky News, BBC light. Across the world, the BBC's

:16:21.:16:24.

impartiality's are looked on with envy. The World Service has provided

:16:25.:16:29.

a window to the world for political prisoners like ang sun she `nd

:16:30.:16:41.

Nelson Mandela. Ang sang sud she and Nelson Mandela.

:16:42.:16:47.

The BBC should be protected. Any agreement to ensure the BBC is

:16:48.:16:56.

fighting fit. As the last ddcade has shown since the last review,

:16:57.:17:01.

emerging technologies and changes in viewing habits can signific`ntly

:17:02.:17:03.

alter the way the BBC's used and viewed.

:17:04.:17:08.

And what so far ass it provhdes We live in a world of rapid

:17:09.:17:13.

technological change. No-ond knows how we'll view our entertain in the

:17:14.:17:17.

coming years. Therefore it's important the Government gives the

:17:18.:17:20.

BBC the best chance of provhding exceptional service.

:17:21.:17:25.

One area which has seen raphd change is the radio. From the days of

:17:26.:17:34.

wireless, the radio is delivered on satellite, digital and Internet The

:17:35.:17:42.

BBC is still the number one go-to organisation for radio. Of the 8.7

:17:43.:17:48.

million people who listen to the radio every yike, 35 million will

:17:49.:17:54.

have listened to Radio One, 2 or 4 -- every week. The BBC has ` web of

:17:55.:18:00.

48 local and regional stations which attract 8.3 million. In Walds, BBC

:18:01.:18:06.

Wales produces 7,000 hours of output and more than 2,000 hours of news

:18:07.:18:10.

and current affairs. At the time when print media is in declhne, it's

:18:11.:18:14.

still BBC Radio Wales the n`tion tunes into for its news and I would

:18:15.:18:20.

like to allude to an intervdntion by my right honourable friend for

:18:21.:18:23.

Wrexham when he said the more people listen to the radio in his

:18:24.:18:27.

constituency than BBC Wales because the transmitter is closer. When we

:18:28.:18:33.

talk about Wales, we have to realise there should be more localisation in

:18:34.:18:38.

the output that Radio Wales produces. I share the concerns of

:18:39.:18:46.

the BBC when it states the BBC must secure 60% of its total reldvant

:18:47.:18:53.

broadcast in time by 31st Ddcember 2020 according to framework

:18:54.:18:57.

agreement. The BBC's response to White Paper, the BBC Trust dxpressed

:18:58.:19:02.

concerns about the addition`l implementation of competition. I do

:19:03.:19:05.

not believe this is simply ` concern about competition of Lord H`ll made

:19:06.:19:10.

it clear in 2014 the BBC is determined to commission thd best

:19:11.:19:12.

programmes, regardless of who makes them. The issue is the rapid way in

:19:13.:19:17.

which this could be opposed under the draft agreement. Accordhng to

:19:18.:19:21.

the National Union of Journ`lists, there is virtually no market in

:19:22.:19:25.

radio production. Already more than 95% of the total income of broadcast

:19:26.:19:29.

output of all independent r`dio production companies in the UK comes

:19:30.:19:32.

from the BBC. It's extremely difficult to see how

:19:33.:19:38.

the BBC will be able to increase competitive tendering to 60$ by 2022

:19:39.:19:43.

give the apparent lack the companies produce for content. Further to

:19:44.:19:47.

this, the BBC is a world le`der in radio production with a cle`r focus

:19:48.:19:53.

on providing good public service, a rapid increase in tendering,

:19:54.:19:55.

including that in the draft agreement, could be put in jeopardy.

:19:56.:19:59.

Given the high quality of the BBC in-house production, it would be a

:20:00.:20:02.

real loss if this was to suffer as a result.

:20:03.:20:05.

Another dimension to considdr is BBC budgets are constrained. Thd process

:20:06.:20:09.

and time required to complete commission agreements under the

:20:10.:20:13.

draft charter would mean additional costs meaning less money on content

:20:14.:20:17.

and above all talent. In light of all the concerns, the questhon

:20:18.:20:22.

should be asked, why is the Government including this commitment

:20:23.:20:25.

in the draft agreement? Surdly it would be in everyone's interests if

:20:26.:20:28.

competitive tendering took place over a longer time, working with the

:20:29.:20:32.

BBC to come up with a timet`ble and solution which works for evdryone.

:20:33.:20:37.

This simply is no need for the Government to rush this. In

:20:38.:20:42.

conclusion, Madam Deputy Spdaker, the BBC is the crown jewel of

:20:43.:20:46.

broadcasting. It should be celebrated for its very vit`l role

:20:47.:20:50.

from in promoting Britain throughout the world. Britain's intern`tional

:20:51.:20:55.

reputation for fairness, impartiality and justice is founded

:20:56.:21:02.

in the values the BBC exports. The very idea of the BBC not thriving is

:21:03.:21:06.

alien to the British people. Yet it should always bring good value for

:21:07.:21:10.

licence fee payers and should be given a place to compete in the

:21:11.:21:14.

rapidly changing world. Equ`lly it should be a place where programme

:21:15.:21:19.

makers can thrive. The draft charter and framework can ensure thd BBC can

:21:20.:21:23.

continue to entertain and educate for years to come.

:21:24.:21:28.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker and thank you four your indulgence in

:21:29.:21:33.

calling me to speak, even though I had to step out of the chamber for a

:21:34.:21:36.

period of time this afternoon to take part in a debate elsewhere

:21:37.:21:40.

about my constituency, therd was no discourtesy meant to the Hotse so

:21:41.:21:45.

thank you for calling me. It's a pleasure to follow the honotrable

:21:46.:21:52.

member and, as his wife has said, I was similarly of the view that as

:21:53.:21:57.

long as when I was broadcasting on the BBC, my manager received equal

:21:58.:22:01.

amounts of complaints about my broadcasting from both sides of

:22:02.:22:03.

politics, that was probably OK and I was probably about fair and equal

:22:04.:22:07.

and that was my personal experience, I have to say.

:22:08.:22:12.

I worked for the BBC in radho, for which I have the perfect face, for

:22:13.:22:21.

20 years. And for most of that in local radio. So I will come on to

:22:22.:22:25.

make some remarks specifically about local radio because there are some

:22:26.:22:29.

members and honourable membdrs who have said it is a vital part of what

:22:30.:22:35.

the BBC does, and perhaps sometimes we can swamp it out of thesd

:22:36.:22:43.

debates. I seem to be a critical friend of the BBC, if I can put it

:22:44.:22:47.

like that. I am under no dotbt whatsoever that the BBC is the best

:22:48.:22:51.

broadcaster in the world, and I believe that having worked for the

:22:52.:22:56.

Corporation for many years, and being an ardent audience melber for

:22:57.:23:02.

all the BBC's output as well. I think as an opening summary I would

:23:03.:23:07.

say this dash it seems to md there is far more agreement betwedn the

:23:08.:23:12.

Government and the BBC than perhaps some have sought to imply hdre. On

:23:13.:23:20.

the issue of the BBC paying for free licenses for over-75s, the

:23:21.:23:23.

Corporation has said "This hs a good deal and it is one that it

:23:24.:23:28.

supports". When it comes to for instance appointments to thd new

:23:29.:23:32.

unitary board the Government has listened, there is unanimitx now

:23:33.:23:36.

between the government and the Corporation and significant changes

:23:37.:23:39.

have been made following representations from the BBC. And

:23:40.:23:45.

overall, the BBC characterised the Charter renewal and license

:23:46.:23:49.

agreement as follows. They say dash it will help us to deliver the

:23:50.:23:55.

strong and creative BBC which the public believes in. So therd is

:23:56.:23:59.

significant agreement. For that reason, let alone any others, we

:24:00.:24:03.

must support this motion and the Charter renewal process. My starting

:24:04.:24:11.

point when considering the BBC and the matter is before us tod`y, has

:24:12.:24:14.

to be funding. And I take a very clear line on this. It is one that I

:24:15.:24:20.

have articulated previously in various debates. The Corpor`tion

:24:21.:24:25.

receives ?3.7 billion of public money every year. It is a gtaranteed

:24:26.:24:32.

and a growing income. In my estimation it is simply not credible

:24:33.:24:38.

to say that the BBC cannot `fford to provide all the services it

:24:39.:24:44.

currently provides and afford to fund free TV licences for over 5s.

:24:45.:24:49.

Of course it can, and espechally so, especially so given the addhtional

:24:50.:24:55.

income of ?18 billion up to 202 which this licence fee settlement

:24:56.:24:58.

delivered by this Conservathve government provides. Of course I

:24:59.:25:06.

will give way. I thank the lember for giving way. Would he agree that

:25:07.:25:10.

in terms of the services thd BBC can afford to deliver that they should

:25:11.:25:15.

more often look for some of the large-scale sporting events, for

:25:16.:25:17.

example, when they often send out hundreds of reporters? The

:25:18.:25:22.

honourable member makes a vdry good point indeed and I will comd on

:25:23.:25:26.

later in my remarks to think about some of the ways the BBC should and

:25:27.:25:32.

indeed should not be saving money. The internal decision-making process

:25:33.:25:35.

for the BBC, the honourable gentleman's point is a good one

:25:36.:25:40.

?3.7 billion is a very largd amount of money by any measure, Madame

:25:41.:25:45.

Deputy Speaker, more than they budget of several government

:25:46.:25:49.

departments. Imagine the outcry if a government department deciddd it

:25:50.:25:51.

would not be open and transparent about the way it spends taxpayer's

:25:52.:25:56.

money. Quite rightly that is something up with which we would not

:25:57.:26:02.

put up. And yet still the BBC seeks to argue that it should not disclose

:26:03.:26:06.

how much public money it paxs to its top talent. Of course, it should. In

:26:07.:26:14.

2014 91 BBC directors were paid more than the Prime Minister. 39 on air

:26:15.:26:24.

staff were paid more than 240,0 0 per year. I don't buy the argument

:26:25.:26:29.

that by revealing those indhvidual salaries the BBC would risk losing

:26:30.:26:33.

it stars to the competition. That doesn't stack up as an argulent

:26:34.:26:37.

because in many cases there are no other outlets who would reqtire all

:26:38.:26:41.

want, or have the means to poach those stars. No other national radio

:26:42.:26:46.

station exists, for instancd, that would consider employing sole of the

:26:47.:26:50.

highest-paid talent on Radio 1 or Radio 2 so I don't buy that. It is

:26:51.:26:54.

the case in my estimation that the BBC has to be more open and

:26:55.:26:58.

transparent about the way it spends its money, because it is not the

:26:59.:27:09.

BBC's money, it is the licence fee payers' money. So I support the

:27:10.:27:11.

government in seeking to buhld that into the Charter. I said I would

:27:12.:27:14.

make more comments about radio, the area of the BBC I perhaps know best,

:27:15.:27:17.

and specifically local radio. I worked for the BBC for 20 ydars and

:27:18.:27:23.

the majority of that time w`s in local radio. Before I go anx further

:27:24.:27:28.

I want to say that BBC radio Devon serving my constituency is ` fine

:27:29.:27:32.

example of BBC local radio `t its best. But local radio in general is

:27:33.:27:37.

an underfunded service withhn an underfunded directorate of the BBC,

:27:38.:27:43.

that of regional broadcasting. There are some statistics. For about % of

:27:44.:27:49.

the licence fee, 6%, English regions, that directorate of the

:27:50.:27:56.

BBC, produces around 52% of all BBC output. It is an incredibly

:27:57.:28:01.

efficient service, in other words. That includes daily regional TV news

:28:02.:28:06.

in 12 regions including Spotlight in the south-west, weekly currdnt

:28:07.:28:11.

affairs and politics shows hn the 11 regions, 39 local radio stations and

:28:12.:28:17.

42 local websites. Now, by `ny measure that amount of outptt for

:28:18.:28:21.

that a relatively small slice of the BBC's budget must represent value

:28:22.:28:25.

for money. And yet, time and again regional services, and local radio

:28:26.:28:31.

in particular, are singled out by BBC managers for cuts. Now, perhaps

:28:32.:28:36.

you can understand why, if xou look at a spreadsheet. If you merely look

:28:37.:28:42.

at figures the BBC is fond of looking at one which is cost per

:28:43.:28:46.

listener per hour. If you look purely in those terms it dods seem

:28:47.:28:51.

as if local radio is a relatively expensive service for the BBC to

:28:52.:28:56.

provide. There is a reason for that. Its 39 different stations, dach a

:28:57.:29:00.

stand-alone operation with hts own costs, its own buildings, its own

:29:01.:29:04.

overheads. But it's entirelx unfair and unreasonable to look at it like

:29:05.:29:10.

that and think that the solttion is therefore to reduce the hours of

:29:11.:29:15.

local broadcasting that any station provides, or to combine the

:29:16.:29:20.

stations, or indeed to repl`ce truly local programmes with regional, or

:29:21.:29:25.

even national shows. I have to say a programme that I once presented has

:29:26.:29:30.

fallen victim to that. It no longer exists as a stand-alone loc`l

:29:31.:29:33.

breakfast programme. Members can decide for themselves whethdr that's

:29:34.:29:37.

to do with the fact that I once presented it. But it's not, it's to

:29:38.:29:40.

do with somebody looking at a line on a spreadsheet and saying we can

:29:41.:29:45.

save money by cutting this. But the effect that has is to take `way from

:29:46.:29:50.

our constituents what should be a good local service of news, current

:29:51.:29:56.

affairs and journalism. And that is something that the BBC should not be

:29:57.:30:01.

doing. Combining stations, replacing truly local programmes with regional

:30:02.:30:05.

or even national shows is not the solution. The solution is to fairly

:30:06.:30:13.

fund local radio in the first place, and the BBC internally has, in my

:30:14.:30:17.

view, the power and the funding necessary to make that decision

:30:18.:30:21.

Local radio also fits perfectly into the new requirement built into the

:30:22.:30:28.

Charter by the government for distinctiveness. There is no other

:30:29.:30:32.

organisation providing local radio services, anything like those

:30:33.:30:36.

provided by the BBC. Commercial radio stations provide nothhng close

:30:37.:30:42.

to the news and current aff`irs and local journalism that BBC local

:30:43.:30:48.

radio provides. Before I entered the BBC I worked for commercial radio.

:30:49.:30:53.

Believe it or not, 30 years ago I know, it is hard to believe but

:30:54.:30:58.

true. I started very young, very young indeed. In those days

:30:59.:31:01.

commercial radio have something approaching a proper newsroom in

:31:02.:31:06.

each of its local stations. Not now. Commercial radio now has perhaps a

:31:07.:31:10.

regional newsroom with a very small number of journalists providing news

:31:11.:31:14.

and current affairs across ` very wide area. There is no other

:31:15.:31:17.

organisation doing what the BBC is doing in local journalism. There is

:31:18.:31:23.

-- the director general has said he wants the BBC's feet held fhrmly to

:31:24.:31:28.

the fire on distinctiveness. The place to start is to look at local

:31:29.:31:32.

radio and to acknowledge thd distinctive service of local

:31:33.:31:38.

journalism that it provides. Two brief points in conclusion, Madam

:31:39.:31:41.

Deputy Speaker, aware of yotr strictures to do with time. It is

:31:42.:31:45.

absolutely right in my view that Ofcom will become the external

:31:46.:31:49.

independent regulator of thd BBC. The government has got that

:31:50.:31:52.

absolutely right. It was always a complete nonsense in my view, having

:31:53.:31:57.

worked for the BBC for all those years, that one body, either the

:31:58.:32:00.

governors or more recently the trust, should have been allowed to

:32:01.:32:04.

be responsible for both the regulation and the governance of the

:32:05.:32:09.

BBC. It was a classic case of being both poacher and gamekeeper at the

:32:10.:32:13.

same time, or maybe both dancer and judge to use the euphemism do sure.

:32:14.:32:19.

The new arrangements are fahrer and more transparent. In conclusion

:32:20.:32:25.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I say again, I end as I began to my love the BBC,

:32:26.:32:29.

its the best broadcasting organisation in the world sdcond to

:32:30.:32:33.

none and this Conservative government loves the BBC. All the

:32:34.:32:38.

nonsense, all the nonsense we heard at certain awards nights and certain

:32:39.:32:42.

letters to certain papers s`ying that this government sought to in

:32:43.:32:46.

some way to hang the BBC out to dry was so much nonsense, it was fiction

:32:47.:32:51.

where the frankly of being on one of the drama programmes that the BBC is

:32:52.:32:55.

so good at producing. In conclusion, the BBC is an organisation of which

:32:56.:33:01.

we can be proud, one that this government fully supports, one that

:33:02.:33:05.

I support as a former emploxee and is now an avid listener and viewer.

:33:06.:33:10.

I commend this licence fee settlement and this Charter renewal

:33:11.:33:16.

to the House. SPEAKER: Liz Saville Roberts. It is a pleasure to follow

:33:17.:33:22.

the honourable member from North Devon, and also to have it on record

:33:23.:33:26.

that I have no professional connections whatsoever with the BBC,

:33:27.:33:33.

I suspect. The BBC enjoys a position of unique importance in Walds with

:33:34.:33:39.

Welsh audiences consuming, for want of a better word, a greater

:33:40.:33:43.

proportion of BBC services than those in the other nations `ll

:33:44.:33:47.

regions of the UK. The general impression, again this is r`ther

:33:48.:33:52.

weak terminology, but it is language used by the BBC to gain an

:33:53.:33:57.

appreciation of the BBC, thd general impression among audiences hs higher

:33:58.:34:01.

in Wales than any of the other UK's three nations. Between 2006 and 2015

:34:02.:34:08.

BBC Wales's spend on English land which TV output was resist from 24.6

:34:09.:34:15.

million to 20.8 million, a reduction in about 30% in real terms. In the

:34:16.:34:20.

face of weak media pluralitx the BBC has an important role to pl`y in

:34:21.:34:24.

Wales. The situation as it stands is, according to Ofcom, in stark

:34:25.:34:29.

contrast to that of Scotland and Northern Ireland. The extrele

:34:30.:34:32.

reduction in funding has led to a situation where many stakeholders in

:34:33.:34:36.

Wales concerned about the l`ck of a distinctive Welsh portrayal in BBC

:34:37.:34:39.

programming, to counter the deficit of distinctive Welsh content the

:34:40.:34:45.

Welsh affairs Select Committee and are enquiring to broadcasting in

:34:46.:34:47.

Wales has concluded the BBC should allocate investment from its current

:34:48.:34:51.

budget for English land which programming in Wales closer to those

:34:52.:34:55.

levels seen back in 2006-7. Green Bay media's Doctor John Ger`int

:34:56.:35:02.

stated that English languagd broadcasting in Wales has bden

:35:03.:35:05.

eroded to such an extent it no longer represents the rounddd life

:35:06.:35:09.

of the nation. The BBC's fahlures to reflect the divergent and evolution

:35:10.:35:15.

across the United Kingdom h`s contributed to widespread

:35:16.:35:17.

misinformation about which government and which Parlialent is

:35:18.:35:21.

responsible for what. It's no wonder that fewer than half of the Welsh

:35:22.:35:25.

population is aware that it is the Labour Welsh government that runs

:35:26.:35:30.

the Welsh NHS and not the Tories in Westminster as was revealed by a

:35:31.:35:34.

YouGov poll in 2014. Welsh public life is naturally very diffdrent to

:35:35.:35:38.

that of the other UK countrhes, and as a public service broadcaster the

:35:39.:35:43.

BBC must recognise, respect and reflect those differences in its

:35:44.:35:47.

output. The UK Government's new BBC Charter provided an opportunity for

:35:48.:35:51.

the broadcaster to modernisd and adapt to adequately addressdd the

:35:52.:36:03.

differences in need across the United Kingdom. I am pleased that

:36:04.:36:06.

the unitary board will incltde a permanent member from Wales,

:36:07.:36:08.

although it is somewhat worrying they will be appointed by the

:36:09.:36:10.

Government, potentially bringing pitted local -- political influence

:36:11.:36:12.

into the BBC's Border Force also welcome is the great answer ability

:36:13.:36:14.

to the National Assembly of Wales, although Plaid Cymru would continue

:36:15.:36:16.

to call for devolution broadcasting. It is also important that the BBC is

:36:17.:36:20.

adequately held to account over its service to Welsh audiences, the

:36:21.:36:24.

Wales representative on the board should refer to a subcommittee in

:36:25.:36:27.

Wales can alternatively the role of audience councils should be

:36:28.:36:32.

maintained. It is crucial that the broadcaster's external regulator

:36:33.:36:35.

Ofcom has permanent Welsh representation on its board in order

:36:36.:36:39.

to carry out this role. We warmly welcome the amendment today calling

:36:40.:36:43.

for a distinctive Scottish news programme. Gierisch languagd

:36:44.:36:46.

equivalent is needed in Walds to allow devolution to flourish and

:36:47.:36:50.

allow the public to make informed democratic decisions. News both

:36:51.:36:53.

about Wales and the world at large should be seen through a Welsh lens.

:36:54.:36:57.

As a nation we deserve and need better than being a five-minute

:36:58.:37:02.

postscript to the world according to England. Despite securing 7.8% of UK

:37:03.:37:07.

BBC network television spend in 2014, greater than the 4.9%

:37:08.:37:20.

population share, the assemblies, communities, quality and local

:37:21.:37:23.

government committee inquirx noted that despite an increasing number of

:37:24.:37:25.

network productions made in Wales the big commission decisions

:37:26.:37:28.

continued to be made in London. As a result of this it is an implicit

:37:29.:37:30.

London bias is preventing BBC executives commissioning network

:37:31.:37:32.

programmes that deal with and distinctly reflect Welsh issues The

:37:33.:37:34.

Welsh affairs Select Committee recommended the Charter makd

:37:35.:37:37.

explicit the duty of the BBC to reflect the whole of the UK and its

:37:38.:37:44.

services and non-news genre commissioning editor based hn Wales.

:37:45.:37:50.

I want to focus on promoting the Welsh language. We have somdthing to

:37:51.:37:56.

learn from Scandinavian cousins who promoted their own language in

:37:57.:38:02.

programmes like the killing and while under. Should there bd an

:38:03.:38:06.

emphasis of Welsh programmes being exported. The chamber has no idea

:38:07.:38:12.

what he said because he's addressing the honourable lady instead of the

:38:13.:38:19.

chair. I will give another go at it! Sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker, please

:38:20.:38:23.

forgive me! Does the honour`ble lady agree with me that in Wales we could

:38:24.:38:30.

learn from our Scandinavian cousins who sell programmes like thd Killing

:38:31.:38:45.

and Wallander? A Scandinavi`n style hinterland drama has alreadx been

:38:46.:38:49.

successful. There is also the great significance of the iPlayer and

:38:50.:38:54.

presenting the Welsh medium and foreseeable productions to ` wider

:38:55.:38:57.

audience. Its essential minority languages such as Welsh havd a

:38:58.:39:01.

strong online presence as wd move into the 21st-century furthdr. The

:39:02.:39:09.

committee also felt the BBC should decentralise its commissionhng

:39:10.:39:11.

arrangements so more big decisions are made in Wales. This was also

:39:12.:39:16.

reiterated by the Welsh seldct committee. Another way of t`ckling

:39:17.:39:20.

the lack of distinct wee Welsh content as the BBC director,general

:39:21.:39:24.

has proposed, is creating sdparate service licences for each of the

:39:25.:39:29.

separate nations, saying, "Ht would enable BBC Wales to better

:39:30.:39:34.

prioritise funding to meet hts own priorities and obligations. " They

:39:35.:39:39.

will select committee also said a national licence should be

:39:40.:39:42.

introduced for Wales in orddr to allow for greater accountabhlity and

:39:43.:39:46.

Flex ability for the BBC in Wales. I welcome the review being undertaken

:39:47.:39:54.

by the UK Government into the nature of S4C. The nature of the ftnding

:39:55.:40:01.

has been severe and disproportionate. It is regrettable

:40:02.:40:04.

the review will not be publhshed until next year. I would be

:40:05.:40:08.

extremely interested to hear how the UK Government intends to incorporate

:40:09.:40:12.

the recommendations of the review into S4C into the renewed charter.

:40:13.:40:17.

To close, in the absence of media plurality in Wales, the BBC has a

:40:18.:40:23.

duty to inform our citizens. The final BBC charter must refldct the

:40:24.:40:28.

unique needs of Welsh citizdns and respect its unique promise to

:40:29.:40:32.

reflect, represent and servd the diverse communities of all the UK

:40:33.:40:33.

nations. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker I

:40:34.:40:45.

enjoyed listening to today's debate and I rise this evening to speak in

:40:46.:40:56.

opposition this matter. We have heard honourable members of both

:40:57.:41:02.

sides of this house talk about the BBC being the premier broadcaster of

:41:03.:41:08.

the world. Indeed it is. And from my own personal experience of having

:41:09.:41:11.

lived in the United States, the BBC and its news service was my

:41:12.:41:18.

umbilical cord to the United Kingdom. It is a mess of Fox news

:41:19.:41:27.

and other very subjective ndws broadcasters, the BBC was the only

:41:28.:41:31.

objective is broadcaster giving me the news as it was. -- I was

:41:32.:41:36.

subjected to Fox news. The words of the amendment give the

:41:37.:41:47.

impression to the house that it s about furthering devolution. It s

:41:48.:41:52.

nothing of the sort. It's about a party hell-bent on destroying the

:41:53.:41:57.

sovereign United Kingdom ushng any tool at its means to do that.

:41:58.:42:02.

Tonight's tool is this amendment age. It purports to want to speak

:42:03.:42:08.

for the people of Scotland. All it wants to do, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:42:09.:42:14.

amendment age, is to drive ` wedge between Scotland and the rest of the

:42:15.:42:18.

United Kingdom. -- Madam Deputy Speaker.

:42:19.:42:22.

We heard from the member from East Dunbartonshire who said Scotland was

:42:23.:42:30.

restricted. No, it is the SNP who are prostrated with the poshtion. A

:42:31.:42:36.

recent YouGov poll earlier this year stated clearly that 63% of Scots

:42:37.:42:42.

want the BBC's news output to continue as is, namely with a main

:42:43.:42:49.

UK National evening broadcast followed by a Scottish broadcast

:42:50.:42:54.

such as reporting Scotland. I will give way. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:42:55.:42:59.

perhaps the honourable gentleman could explain why the dangerous

:43:00.:43:04.

separatists on his own benches were all in agreement on the ide` of a

:43:05.:43:10.

separate Scottish six? Were they bamboozled by my eloquence? Madam

:43:11.:43:15.

Deputy Speaker, the honourable members on this side of the house

:43:16.:43:20.

that maybe have supported the Scottish six, have never fotght the

:43:21.:43:24.

SNP, and I will speak to those honourable members to explahn

:43:25.:43:29.

clearly the SNP's policy on these matters, because they will do

:43:30.:43:33.

anything to bring about the end of the United Kingdom. This is what the

:43:34.:43:37.

amendment is all about, it's another example of chip chipping aw`y at a

:43:38.:43:45.

great British institution. We have also heard from members sayhng there

:43:46.:43:50.

is great talent in Scotland. Indeed there is, there is great

:43:51.:43:53.

journalistic talent across the United Kingdom. What we see in the

:43:54.:43:58.

BBC is some Scottish journalists make it onto the UK stage, some

:43:59.:44:01.

great Scottish journalists that are able to promote objective ndws

:44:02.:44:08.

programmes across our kingdom. But let me say very clearly this, I

:44:09.:44:14.

believe that the Scots want to know exactly what's going on across the

:44:15.:44:18.

United Kingdom, and given that England is the larger partndr of the

:44:19.:44:22.

United Kingdom, simply by sheer numbers, it's imperative th`t Scots

:44:23.:44:27.

are able to see the good work that the Conservative government is doing

:44:28.:44:30.

in other parts of the United Kingdom. That may compare and

:44:31.:44:36.

contrast for the avoidance of doubt. Because the SNP can't have ht both

:44:37.:44:40.

ways. We have seen very recdntly since the election last year that

:44:41.:44:46.

they have changed their polhcy, that they will now talk about torpedoing

:44:47.:44:50.

policies brought by the UK Government that affect Engl`nd or

:44:51.:44:56.

England and Wales only. May I give such an example. The SNP edtcation

:44:57.:45:01.

spokeswoman, who I e-mailed earlier today, the honourable member for

:45:02.:45:05.

North West Glasgow, was reported just a few days ago saying hn the

:45:06.:45:11.

Evening Standard that if schools across England set pay scalds lower

:45:12.:45:14.

than the agreed national sc`les that would mean an education budget

:45:15.:45:20.

across the piste would be lower and there are Barnett Formula

:45:21.:45:25.

consequential sparse. By thdir own logic, when they keep talking about

:45:26.:45:29.

poking their noses to England only matters, because of these B`rnett

:45:30.:45:35.

Formula consequentials, it's imperative the people of Scotland

:45:36.:45:38.

can see exactly what's going on in England so we can or rather they can

:45:39.:45:43.

hold their SNP representatives to account. The honourable member seems

:45:44.:45:52.

to be labouring under the apprehension or impression that the

:45:53.:45:54.

Scottish six will no longer include news from the rest of the UK. I can

:45:55.:45:59.

inform the honourable member that isn't correct, it's a total news

:46:00.:46:05.

programme. It is local, nathonal and international news, all within the

:46:06.:46:08.

same programme. His fears c`n be laid to rest. The arrogance of the

:46:09.:46:17.

SNP position knows no... On one hand they say its editorial independence,

:46:18.:46:21.

and now we are told by the SNP bench is exactly what will be contained in

:46:22.:46:27.

the Scottish six. It is a f`rce of tragic proportions, Madam Ddputy

:46:28.:46:32.

Speaker. The truth is that the people of England and the pdople of

:46:33.:46:35.

my constituency ought to know about the SNP's terrible record. @s I said

:46:36.:46:41.

earlier today, perhaps we should be encouraging, not compelling but

:46:42.:46:45.

encouraging more news to cole out of Scotland so that UK citizens,

:46:46.:46:52.

including constituents on all sides of this house can hear exactly about

:46:53.:46:57.

the terrible record of the SNP government. For example, on higher

:46:58.:47:02.

education, the fact there are less disadvantaged students going on to

:47:03.:47:06.

higher education in Scotland than in England. I think my constittents in

:47:07.:47:09.

South Leicestershire would like to know that. Madam Deputy Spe`ker can

:47:10.:47:15.

I remind the honourable gentleman that we have free tuition fdes in

:47:16.:47:18.

Scotland, so the constituency he is talking about will be lumbered off

:47:19.:47:22.

tens of thousands of pounds of debt, and they won't be in Scotland. We

:47:23.:47:26.

are very comfortable with that position. The honourable gentleman

:47:27.:47:32.

might be comfortable, but the higher education institutions in Scotland

:47:33.:47:34.

not comfortable and it's imperative we hear about that across the UK.

:47:35.:47:39.

There are less disadvantaged students going on to higher

:47:40.:47:42.

education in Scotland than hn England, and that's because of the

:47:43.:47:47.

SNP's appalling track record. Let's take the NHS as well. It's really

:47:48.:47:50.

important the BBC broadcasts this in England. SMP targets, targets that

:47:51.:47:59.

are constantly not being met. Early on, the honourable member for East

:48:00.:48:03.

Dunbartonshire talked about BBC Scotland failing to meet targets, I

:48:04.:48:09.

suggest he looks at his own SNP government failing to meet targets.

:48:10.:48:12.

This is important news that should be broadcast across the UK. Madam

:48:13.:48:19.

Deputy Speaker, the truth is that this is yet another attempt by

:48:20.:48:25.

separatist MPs, which is whx virtually every separatist LP from

:48:26.:48:29.

Scotland has signed this amdndment to chip away at a great British

:48:30.:48:32.

institution. I would encour`ge all members of this house who are not

:48:33.:48:36.

members of separatist partids, including those on this sidd of the

:48:37.:48:40.

house who perhaps unwittingly have fallen foul of the SNP's propaganda

:48:41.:48:47.

to pretend that this will somehow further devolution. It will do

:48:48.:48:51.

nothing of the sort. It will simply bring about the hopes and dreams of

:48:52.:48:56.

the separatist party, which is an end to the United Kingdom. Something

:48:57.:49:00.

which on this side of the house given this is the Conservathve and

:49:01.:49:03.

Unionist government, I would hope all honourable members would want to

:49:04.:49:10.

assiduously defend and protdct. I conclude by saying that whilst I

:49:11.:49:15.

fully support the government with its own successful agreement with

:49:16.:49:19.

the BBC, I strongly encourage all members of this house is to

:49:20.:49:22.

thoroughly reject a separathst amendment that does nothing but

:49:23.:49:28.

attempt to destroy the Brithsh Broadcasting Corporation. Ddidre

:49:29.:49:36.

Brock. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It's always a privhlege to

:49:37.:49:43.

follow the member for South Leicestershire, if not just for they

:49:44.:49:50.

comedy value. I found in th`t somewhat meandering discusshon that

:49:51.:49:53.

has passed for the debate on the BBC in the last few months, I'vd become

:49:54.:49:58.

more and more convinced that very few people actually care about the

:49:59.:50:01.

principles involved and it's become another venue for an argument rather

:50:02.:50:06.

than a consideration of the future of public service broadcasthng. At

:50:07.:50:10.

times the government and loxal opposition seem more interested in

:50:11.:50:14.

striking positions to reflect what people are thinking on the Clapham

:50:15.:50:17.

omnibus or in the middle Conservative club. A funding deal

:50:18.:50:23.

was done behind closed doors and the opposition hardly blinked at the

:50:24.:50:26.

time, perhaps they thought ht would be their turn to do the deal one

:50:27.:50:29.

day. I'm delighted they havd finally found their voice on this issue

:50:30.:50:34.

These things should be all out in public and maybe then there wouldn't

:50:35.:50:37.

have been a stramash about how huge the BBC salary has to be before the

:50:38.:50:42.

BBC makes it public. Maybe then the BBC and public could have h`d

:50:43.:50:47.

discussions with Equity abott the data protection obligations of that

:50:48.:50:55.

decision. And also on whethdr a public service broadcasters should

:50:56.:51:00.

be in effect privatising 60$ of its radio output as well, as mentioned

:51:01.:51:04.

by the member for Bishop Auckland. The SNP is in favour of high-quality

:51:05.:51:07.

public broadcasting serving the people. I would hope I would find

:51:08.:51:13.

kindred spirits and attitudds on the benches here. It seems to md that

:51:14.:51:19.

the BBC and government, and the loyal opposition largely occupy the

:51:20.:51:23.

same space in the heart of the establishment, and their self

:51:24.:51:26.

referencing conversations are equally self reinforcing. And

:51:27.:51:30.

therefore damaging to the political discourse that should be informed by

:51:31.:51:35.

the BBC's work. There is a fond suspension of disbelief in the UK

:51:36.:51:39.

that allows the public to ilagine that the BBC is impartial and in

:51:40.:51:44.

service to all of us. It's ` comfortable fiction, but it masks a

:51:45.:51:48.

fatal flaw in the setup of our state broadcaster. I find the BBC's

:51:49.:51:55.

attitude overpoweringly London centric, begging towards sctrrying

:51:56.:51:58.

to the establishment rather than serving the whole of its audience.

:51:59.:52:02.

It reminds me of a fantastic piece by the novelist James Robertson

:52:03.:52:11.

called The News Where You Are. In 306 to five words he scores and

:52:12.:52:15.

underscores the perception lany of us have in Scotland of the way the

:52:16.:52:21.

BBC views us. -- in 365 words. The important news is what we tdll you

:52:22.:52:25.

it is from our studios in London. And when the important news is all

:52:26.:52:29.

over, you can have been news from where you are, which is less

:52:30.:52:35.

important, in which unless we decide it is more important, in whhch case

:52:36.:52:39.

you will hear about it. Mr Robertson does a fantastic reading on you

:52:40.:52:43.

Tube. I'm sure the sentiments will have echoes elsewhere and there will

:52:44.:52:48.

be similar feelings in Cornwall Yorkshire, in Wales. The BBC has to

:52:49.:52:52.

modernise, not its broadcasting platforms or the media it uses or

:52:53.:52:56.

the founding ideals, but thd attitude of those it's supposed to

:52:57.:53:01.

serve outside the M25. A little less patronising would be good, stop

:53:02.:53:04.

thinking you know best and start learning to serve.

:53:05.:53:10.

The parallel complaint can be levelled against BBC Scotland. Stop

:53:11.:53:16.

kowtowing to London as if Broadcasting House holds thd great

:53:17.:53:21.

sages of the modern era. Get out and make decent programmes, including a

:53:22.:53:25.

properly resourced Scottish six and shout out loud if you are bding

:53:26.:53:32.

underfunded. That is all. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I thank the honourable

:53:33.:53:35.

member for giving way. Untroubled by her position that on the ond hand

:53:36.:53:39.

saying the BBC thinks it knows best, yet on the other hand they `re

:53:40.:53:42.

making the exact point the lembers of the SNP bench think best. Surely

:53:43.:53:47.

the BBC is in a better placd to objectively decide where to focus on

:53:48.:53:50.

rather than individual membdrs here who are all very parochial. I thank

:53:51.:53:56.

the honourable member voice, but I suggest we are here as crithcal

:53:57.:54:01.

friends of the BBC and I make those comments in that spirit. Returning

:54:02.:54:10.

to my comments, please, to the BBC Scotland, please shout out loud if

:54:11.:54:13.

you are being underfunded. We know that the entire budget fall of BBC

:54:14.:54:18.

Scotland, radio and TV, is outstripped by the budget for Radio

:54:19.:54:26.

4 alone. As my honourable friend mentioned, BBC Scotland gaining

:54:27.:54:28.

control of the monies raised in Scotland for the licence fed should

:54:29.:54:33.

see an additional ?100 millhon a year invested in Scotland's creative

:54:34.:54:37.

sector supporting 1500 full,time equivalent jobs and boosting the

:54:38.:54:42.

economy. But the more important aspect is that Scottish programming

:54:43.:54:46.

should be Scottish, not onlx reflecting Scotland but also

:54:47.:54:51.

reporting the world through a Scottish vision. I thank thd

:54:52.:54:57.

Honourable Lady for giving way. I did say in my speech earlier that

:54:58.:55:03.

63% of a YouGov poll of Scots said that they were happy with the news

:55:04.:55:07.

output as is. Why is she not listening to the people of Scotland?

:55:08.:55:13.

I thank the honourable membdr for his contribution. That I thhnk was

:55:14.:55:17.

based on the suggestion of ` pilot along the lines of what is currently

:55:18.:55:22.

the Reporting Scotland news programme. Audiences have not seen

:55:23.:55:26.

the pilot is going on at thd moment. The member had another point. I

:55:27.:55:29.

thank the Honourable Lady for giving way. I have sympathy for thd about

:55:30.:55:34.

the BBC being extraordinarily London centric but one of the worst areas

:55:35.:55:37.

of the country is the Midlands where the BBC licence fee per head is ?12

:55:38.:55:45.

40 versus ?757 in London. I thank the honourable member for the

:55:46.:55:48.

information, I wasn't aware of it. It seems to me the Midlands should

:55:49.:55:52.

be making its views known to London as well. And I look forward to his

:55:53.:55:57.

contribution later in the ddbate. I'm sure it will be mentiondd. The

:55:58.:56:03.

other thing I should mention too and my honourable friend mentioned,

:56:04.:56:09.

central funding has been cut under the last Chancellor, saving the ?1

:56:10.:56:13.

million was what was needed to turn the deficit around rather than the

:56:14.:56:18.

millions spent on Trident. Ht is time that Albert was placed on the

:56:19.:56:24.

same footing and given a fahr share of the funding and licence fees and

:56:25.:56:30.

it is time to turn over the cash. Raise up your voices BBC Scotland

:56:31.:56:36.

and shout out any inequalitx, the injustice and bad deals, shout it

:56:37.:56:43.

out. That Scottish six has to be an outstanding success, free of London

:56:44.:56:45.

control and the dead hand of Broadcasting House. The BBC must do

:56:46.:56:50.

that and do it well to start restoring its credibility in

:56:51.:56:54.

Scotland. It will only be the beginning. It is good to sed there

:56:55.:56:58.

is movement towards including the devolved administrations in

:56:59.:57:00.

decisions about the future of the BBC but it must go further `nd more

:57:01.:57:05.

of the BBC must be devolved so the good programmes being made can be

:57:06.:57:10.

built upon. Scottish progralming must reflect Scotland back to

:57:11.:57:15.

itself, not just have progr`mmes made in Scotland that could be just

:57:16.:57:20.

as easily made anywhere elsd, no more Waterloo Road farces. Scottish

:57:21.:57:23.

programme makers have shown themselves time and again c`pable of

:57:24.:57:26.

making high-quality content, they don't need London rejects to bulk it

:57:27.:57:31.

up. More than government's changes, BBC Scotland has to clear ott the

:57:32.:57:35.

dead wood from its own backxard away with the tide and safe

:57:36.:57:39.

presenting styles on radio `nd television, away those who `te the

:57:40.:57:44.

centralised styles of the BBC News reporting and away with those

:57:45.:57:48.

executives who have outlived their imaginative years. BBC Scotland

:57:49.:57:54.

should have editorial and fhnancial independence and exercise it

:57:55.:57:56.

ruthlessly. No more lift and shift and no more. Shed the safe hf face

:57:57.:58:05.

and and timidity and start dngaging the people, not in phone ins or vox

:58:06.:58:09.

pops, but actually engages hnterest and intellect and thought and raises

:58:10.:58:15.

those ideals as concepts th`t people can cleave to. This Charter renewal

:58:16.:58:19.

means nothing more than previous renewals and future renewals will

:58:20.:58:22.

mean nothing more than this one so long as there is little imagination

:58:23.:58:27.

and no new thought in the continuous plot of the BBC. It seems wd have

:58:28.:58:31.

come to this point with no forethought from the governlent or

:58:32.:58:35.

broadcaster about what it is they actually want the BBC to do. The cut

:58:36.:58:39.

in Foreign Office Grant affdcted the World Service in the early days of

:58:40.:58:43.

the first Cameron government cutting into the soft diplomacy mission the

:58:44.:58:50.

famous nation speaking peacd, and as licence fee costs for peopld over 75

:58:51.:58:54.

fall onto the BBC's shoulders we will see more pressure to ctt and

:58:55.:58:59.

cut and cut again. I thank the honourable member for giving way. My

:59:00.:59:06.

concern, at the tendency or risk of the Foreign Office to start

:59:07.:59:09.

classifying some of the mondy spent on the World Service as overseas

:59:10.:59:11.

development assistance, divdrted money away from what it shotld be

:59:12.:59:16.

spent on, which is poverty reduction. I absolutely do `nd I

:59:17.:59:20.

thank the honourable member, my honourable friend, for his

:59:21.:59:22.

contribution. That is an al`rming development. Sure. In the mhdst of

:59:23.:59:29.

this austerity inspired or G of cuts nobody seems to be saying there is a

:59:30.:59:32.

plan for the BBC that doesn't involve using it as a polithcal

:59:33.:59:35.

football. And unfortunately no one of the BBC is really speaking..

:59:36.:59:42.

Talking of political footballs, the Charter can be renewed as often as

:59:43.:59:46.

is convenient, the management structures of the BBC can bd tinted

:59:47.:59:51.

into powerlessness, the output can be eternally criticised, pr`ised,

:59:52.:59:54.

held up as world leading, condemned as not fit for purpose, mocked,

:59:55.:00:00.

exalted and switched off. Nothing is beyond the imagination of

:00:01.:00:02.

politicians looking for somdthing to say. . Until there is a serhous

:00:03.:00:06.

engagement about what the Corporation should be doing it will

:00:07.:00:13.

continue to drift on a currdnt whose direction was set nearly a century

:00:14.:00:17.

ago in a broadcasting landscape bearing no resemblance to today s

:00:18.:00:23.

landscape. SPEAKER: Order. The honourable gentleman is an dxcitable

:00:24.:00:26.

denizen of the House and is a keen and assiduous parliamentari`n but

:00:27.:00:30.

doesn't enrich his case for intervention by repeating it. And he

:00:31.:00:34.

shouldn't, in a sense, seek to harangue people. A polite inquiry

:00:35.:00:39.

with his insistent air, of course, is legitimate.

:00:40.:00:44.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I in fact have one sense -- sentenced to

:00:45.:00:51.

complete. It has been buffeted by winds and blown about a bit since

:00:52.:00:56.

those nearly 100 years but whose hand is on the tiller? Who guides,

:00:57.:01:00.

or seeks to guide, the BBC's long-term direction?

:01:01.:01:05.

SPEAKER: Nigel Huddleston. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm not sure I can

:01:06.:01:13.

compete with that exciting dxchange but it is an honour to follow my

:01:14.:01:17.

honourable friend for Edinbtrgh North and Leith. I'd like to start

:01:18.:01:22.

by congratulating the dozens, bodies and institutions, and the 180,0 0

:01:23.:01:26.

plus members of the British public who participated in the consultation

:01:27.:01:30.

that has led to what I belidve is a very successful outcome in terms of

:01:31.:01:34.

the draft Charter. The scald of involvement clearly shows how close

:01:35.:01:38.

the BBC is to the heart of lany people in the United Kingdol. I d

:01:39.:01:42.

also like to give credit whdre it is due to the former Secretary of

:01:43.:01:45.

State, the Right Honourable member for Maldon for all of the work he

:01:46.:01:49.

and his team did in drafting the Charter and the current teal for

:01:50.:01:52.

pursuing it and making sure it comes to this successful point. It is true

:01:53.:01:57.

the BBC itself supports the vast majority of the Charter. And is now

:01:58.:02:01.

quibbling over some relativdly small points, including the revel`tion of

:02:02.:02:05.

on-screen talent page, which I shall come to in a moment. But thd thing I

:02:06.:02:09.

consider most important changing in the Charter is around governance and

:02:10.:02:13.

independence. The BBC Trust was clearly not fit for purpose and the

:02:14.:02:15.

new unitary board will be a far more effectivd

:02:16.:02:39.

oversight body alongside Ofcom. The BBC will itself appoint the majority

:02:40.:02:42.

of members to its board, for the first time in its history, `nd the

:02:43.:02:44.

government therefore will not be able to out vote the BBC, this is a

:02:45.:02:47.

fundamental point. The Culttre, Media and Sport Select Commhttee

:02:48.:02:49.

which I have the honour of being a member of, will have a role in the

:02:50.:02:52.

appointment of the chair of the unitary board and there will be

:02:53.:02:54.

consultation with the nation's government on the membership of the

:02:55.:02:56.

other public appointments. @nd of course there will be a thorough

:02:57.:02:58.

public appointments process. The idea, therefore, that there is some

:02:59.:03:01.

kind of government stooges hn these roles is completely false,

:03:02.:03:03.

fabricated and doesn't stack up with the facts. Ofcom will play `

:03:04.:03:05.

significantly enhanced role, and I am currently on the Digital economy

:03:06.:03:07.

Bill committee and I was re`ssured earlier last week that one of the

:03:08.:03:10.

representatives from Ofcom came along and gave reassurances that

:03:11.:03:13.

they have the skills and experience to take on the additional role and

:03:14.:03:16.

where they need to hire thex are in the process of hiring so I'l

:03:17.:03:20.

confident Ofcom will be abld to fulfil its role with great skill. I

:03:21.:03:25.

also applaud the expanded role of the National Audit Office, which

:03:26.:03:31.

despite comments to the contrary at has skills and experience in

:03:32.:03:35.

developing commercial contr`cts and is capable of monitoring thd

:03:36.:03:38.

operations of BBC Worldwide. With regard to talent salaries, this is

:03:39.:03:43.

obviously a point which has received quite a lot of attention. I don t

:03:44.:03:47.

think many of my constituents are losing sleep over this issud,

:03:48.:03:52.

however, the proposals are that the BBC will reveal talent salaries

:03:53.:03:56.

above ?150,000 above the level of pay of the Prime Minister force of

:03:57.:03:59.

this threshold for revealing salaries is standard practice across

:04:00.:04:02.

the rest of the public sector, and indeed already in the BBC itself.

:04:03.:04:06.

The BBC management salaries are already revealed above 150,000, and

:04:07.:04:11.

of course management is also talent, they are not on-air talent. It seems

:04:12.:04:16.

logical to extend the process, therefore, to on-air talent. The

:04:17.:04:20.

argument the BBC would be d`maged if salaries were revealed doesn't hold

:04:21.:04:23.

water and if that was the c`se it would already lose talent in a

:04:24.:04:27.

rigorous way in the managemdnt side of things. And as the honourable

:04:28.:04:31.

member for East Dumbarton Shah has commented on many occasions, this is

:04:32.:04:35.

a rather gossipy industry. Lost people in the industry

:04:36.:04:49.

already and so on and who gdts paid what, about the only people who

:04:50.:04:53.

don't know what the top taldnt get paid are those paying for it, the

:04:54.:04:55.

licence fee payers. It's about time we corrected that. If the t`lent

:04:56.:04:58.

really are worth as much as they are getting paid, they should h`ve

:04:59.:05:01.

nothing to hide or fear. We only need to look at what our top pop

:05:02.:05:04.

stars and film stars, and otr top sporting stars are getting paid to

:05:05.:05:06.

see the British public are puite tolerant of what many would consider

:05:07.:05:08.

exorbitant salaries, as long as they give pleasure to millions and are

:05:09.:05:11.

talented and indeed are then perceived as worth it. The BBC need

:05:12.:05:14.

not worry about revealing t`lent salaries as long as they ard seen to

:05:15.:05:18.

be in keeping with market r`tes and the talent is being paid to the

:05:19.:05:23.

British public in a way thex see is worth it. Claudia Winkleman has

:05:24.:05:26.

already declared she considdrs herself working for the public and

:05:27.:05:29.

doesn't mind the fact that her salary will be revealed. I `lso hope

:05:30.:05:34.

that when salaries are reve`led by the BBC that there is not a gender

:05:35.:05:39.

pay gap revealed at the samd time. One element that I hope will help

:05:40.:05:43.

with this is that the very revelation of salaries may dqual out

:05:44.:05:47.

some rather a necessary, abhorrent pay scales at the moment. I'd like

:05:48.:05:54.

to conclude by mentioning the Scottish issue to the upset of my

:05:55.:05:58.

honourable member for South Leicestershire Foxes being on the

:05:59.:06:01.

committee and having multiple conversations I'm Cesc. Mac

:06:02.:06:04.

sympathetic to the AEGON it's for a Scottish six, in the same w`y that

:06:05.:06:08.

if I was watching the news hn England and saw that through items,

:06:09.:06:12.

Scottish health story, Scottish education story, or Scottish legal

:06:13.:06:15.

story, I might be bored and turn off as well, not that I'm disinterested

:06:16.:06:18.

in it but it's not the thing I would want to see on the top of mx news

:06:19.:06:25.

item. Their -- therefore whhle and sympathetic with the idea of a

:06:26.:06:28.

Scottish six, the reason I disagree with my friends on the opposite

:06:29.:06:31.

bench is you are asking for the government to interfere on this and

:06:32.:06:34.

this is a dangerous area. There are areas where the BBC does itself have

:06:35.:06:38.

to make editorial and operational decisions and I believe this is one

:06:39.:06:42.

of them. It is up to us to put pressure on the BBC had madd

:06:43.:06:44.

arguments and monitor their behaviour in this area and other

:06:45.:06:46.

areas of spend, such as spending on regions, Midlands versus London but

:06:47.:07:03.

I don't believe it is right for Parliament to get into that level of

:07:04.:07:06.

detail and force those decisions, though I'm keen to monitor this and

:07:07.:07:09.

push for it and argue the c`se for a Scottish six along with my friends

:07:10.:07:12.

on the SNP benches. SPEAKER:. Kwasi Kwarteng. I'm grateful to bd called

:07:13.:07:14.

in this debate. Interesting debate, we had a wide range of speeches

:07:15.:07:17.

Praising the BBC. I come here also to add my pennyworth of prahse. I

:07:18.:07:21.

think the BBC is an excellent institution. I have also bedn in the

:07:22.:07:25.

privileged position of presdnting a programme on the BBC and I have to

:07:26.:07:31.

say that I have rarely met ` bunch of more professional, more

:07:32.:07:33.

accommodating, friendly people than those who worked on the programme

:07:34.:07:36.

that I had the honour of prdsenting. I also want to echo the point of my

:07:37.:07:54.

right honourable friend madd with respect to the future of thd BBC and

:07:55.:07:58.

technology. It's obvious to most people in this country that we are

:07:59.:08:04.

going to live through a vast range of change, a fast accelerathon of

:08:05.:08:14.

the ability of technology to provide programmes, the way in which people

:08:15.:08:17.

access programmes is going to change. The only thing I wotld say

:08:18.:08:23.

about the charter in relation to this is that it is actually quite a

:08:24.:08:28.

long period. Other members of the house have made the point that they

:08:29.:08:32.

feel the health check after five and a half years is something which is

:08:33.:08:38.

in some way deleterious to the functioning of the BBC, is some way

:08:39.:08:44.

a plot to try to change the nature of the BBC. But surely if the

:08:45.:08:48.

charter is 11 years, it makds absolute sense to have some form of

:08:49.:08:53.

break, if you like, a break clause or health check after five `nd a

:08:54.:08:58.

half years, because none of us here have any idea where we will be in

:08:59.:09:03.

terms of technology and in how we access material on the scredn in

:09:04.:09:08.

five and a half years' time. On that point I want to mention the fact

:09:09.:09:13.

that my right honourable frhend the member for Molden mentioned the fact

:09:14.:09:20.

that the licence fee would be looked at. I happen to think the lhcence

:09:21.:09:26.

fee is little more than a poll tax. I think it's fairly controvdrsial in

:09:27.:09:29.

this day and age to expect that David Beckham pays exactly the same

:09:30.:09:37.

amount as somebody in more reduced circumstances, just for the

:09:38.:09:41.

privilege of accessing the BBC. I think it's something which hs a

:09:42.:09:45.

matter for legitimate debatd. I m interested to see the chartdr will

:09:46.:09:51.

extend the licence fee, but I think at the end of this period, the

:09:52.:09:54.

licence fee will be something that may well be looked at and m`y well

:09:55.:10:00.

be reformed. I think subscrhption services are clearly a more

:10:01.:10:05.

attractive way, in some instances, in moving forward on this. The other

:10:06.:10:09.

issue I want to raise very briefly, is the issue of diversity in the

:10:10.:10:15.

BBC. I think we have debated this on the floor of the house recently I

:10:16.:10:19.

think the honourable member for Tottenham has spoken very eloquently

:10:20.:10:23.

about this. It seems to me that pious words are very easy, very

:10:24.:10:31.

cheap. It's very difficult to see, or to measure, because I no progress

:10:32.:10:35.

has been made, but it's verx difficult to see how we measure that

:10:36.:10:39.

progress. Other speakers have mentioned the fact that thex think

:10:40.:10:43.

the BBC's feet should be held to the fire on diversity. I'm not just

:10:44.:10:48.

talking about ethnic or gender diversity, I think we have to look

:10:49.:10:52.

at regional diversity, speakers have mentioned that. I think we've got to

:10:53.:10:58.

look at the balance between able-bodied, and disabled pdople

:10:59.:11:01.

being represented on screen. There is a long way to go on this issue,

:11:02.:11:07.

and I feel the BBC itself is perhaps not the best measure, not the best

:11:08.:11:13.

judge of how it's performing on these issues. The right Honourable

:11:14.:11:19.

member for Tottenham mentioned that there have been something lhke 0

:11:20.:11:23.

initiatives in the lass 's 07 years on the issue of diversity, `nd yet

:11:24.:11:26.

nobody seems to suggest that there has been any enquiry on what has

:11:27.:11:31.

actually been achieved on this. There is just a general ide`, a

:11:32.:11:35.

general notion that we have improved. I don't dispute that, I

:11:36.:11:39.

don't dispute the fact improvements have been made, but there doesn t

:11:40.:11:45.

seem to be a measure, or a way we can measure that improvement. I

:11:46.:11:48.

think that's something government ministers and the BBC itself and

:11:49.:11:53.

others should look at. The last thing, the last subject I w`nt to

:11:54.:11:58.

touch on in this debate bridfly is this issue of value for mondy. It

:11:59.:12:06.

seems to me that you have an organisation that has ?3.7 billion a

:12:07.:12:13.

year. That's a lot of money, it s a big organisation, and it's perfectly

:12:14.:12:16.

legitimate for members of this side of the house, and on the other side

:12:17.:12:20.

of the house, to look at thhs expenditure and to question quite

:12:21.:12:26.

rigorously whether in fact the public is getting value for money.

:12:27.:12:34.

And when I hear, and I have to say this, when I hear Scottish

:12:35.:12:38.

Nationalist MPs complaining, and I quote, about the audio cuts, -- the

:12:39.:12:51.

orgy offcuts, I get quite irritated. Over the last six years, thd BBC has

:12:52.:12:58.

been something of a pampered child, I think so, and many others do. It

:12:59.:13:02.

has been completely exempt hn many ways from some of the very difficult

:13:03.:13:06.

choices we have made. I'm h`ppy to give away. Would he agree whth me

:13:07.:13:13.

that this, the language being used is just another example of

:13:14.:13:17.

separatists wanting to put ` wedge between the Scots and English, in

:13:18.:13:24.

this case the London media? I appreciate my honourable frhend s

:13:25.:13:27.

concern about the separatist language was up I don't see it in

:13:28.:13:31.

those terms particularly. Btt I have heard this many times, a kind of

:13:32.:13:35.

Father Christmas approach to public spending, which I have alwaxs put

:13:36.:13:39.

argued against in this housd. I don't think it's a mature approach

:13:40.:13:43.

to the difficult choices we have to make. I don't think complaining

:13:44.:13:51.

about an orgy of cuts is a particularly accurate or helpful way

:13:52.:13:59.

of talking about the BBC. It is necessary to look rigorouslx at

:14:00.:14:02.

public expenditure, and to look at an organisation which enjoys lavish

:14:03.:14:09.

expenditure and lavish sums from the tax payer. It's quite legithmate for

:14:10.:14:13.

us as members of Parliament to look in a rigorous way at the expenditure

:14:14.:14:18.

and expect some degree of s`vings. I've always argued in my six years

:14:19.:14:22.

in this house against what H call what I call the Father Christmas

:14:23.:14:30.

approach to public expendittre, keeping spending, protesting about

:14:31.:14:36.

orgy of cuts, or austerity, which is not happening to the BBC in this

:14:37.:14:39.

instance. The government, ghven where we were in the last

:14:40.:14:43.

parliament, has been rather generous in its treatment of the BBC. As well

:14:44.:14:47.

they might, it's a weld cherished and well respected national

:14:48.:14:50.

organisation. And there is nothing in this charter that suggests to me

:14:51.:14:54.

that the approach of the government going forward will be any more

:14:55.:14:59.

rigorous or challenging in terms of the expenditure on the BBC than was

:15:00.:15:04.

the case in the last Parlialent I think the BBC is well protected I

:15:05.:15:08.

think the charter is to be commended for some of the reforms, thd role of

:15:09.:15:13.

the National Audit Office, the role of Ofcom, these are improvelents in

:15:14.:15:22.

the governance of the BBC. Ly right honourable friend, the membdr for

:15:23.:15:27.

Wantage expressed this, the charter has most of these things right. It's

:15:28.:15:34.

actually a successful piece of legislation, or potential

:15:35.:15:38.

legislation. And I'm absolutely very happy to lend my support to the

:15:39.:15:41.

charter and to support the government in its approach to the

:15:42.:15:50.

BBC. Hugh Merriman. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's an absolute pleasure

:15:51.:15:55.

to follow my friend, the melber for Spelthorne. He is rarely off the TV

:15:56.:15:59.

himself, a fine contributed to the BBC. When I turn on their sdems to

:16:00.:16:04.

be him making contributions, and I hope notwithstanding some of the

:16:05.:16:07.

criticism that his chair on Newsnight will not be replaced by

:16:08.:16:11.

the one used by Graham Norton when he rejects the unfortunate lember of

:16:12.:16:16.

the audience. Mr Speaker, pdrhaps I can declare an interest bec`use I am

:16:17.:16:27.

chair of the APPG for the BBC. I welcome the new BBC charter and the

:16:28.:16:32.

compromises made by both government and the BBC in order for it to be

:16:33.:16:36.

delivered. I particularly wdlcome the term of the charter, an 11 year

:16:37.:16:43.

period. This should provide, provided a fixed Parliament

:16:44.:16:50.

survives, take the subject `t the next election cycle. I'm always

:16:51.:16:54.

bemused by the fact the BBC gets accused of bias during thosd times.

:16:55.:16:59.

To me demonstrates to that the BBC must perform in a balanced leasure

:17:00.:17:03.

because the pressures come from both sides, and the calmer waters of the

:17:04.:17:07.

midterm will be a better pohnt for the next charter renewal. If the

:17:08.:17:10.

calling out of bias by politicians is something I find somewhat

:17:11.:17:15.

tiresome, then it's followed in my list of moans by demands for the BBC

:17:16.:17:21.

to find its own voice, provhded of course the lyrics and music are

:17:22.:17:24.

written by interested honourable members in this house. I wotld

:17:25.:17:29.

perhaps ask the SNP to take note with that regard. Mr Speaker, I m

:17:30.:17:35.

pleased the licence fee not only lasts for 11 years but is gtaranteed

:17:36.:17:39.

for the next 11 years, and ht will rise inflation each year, and the

:17:40.:17:45.

government has legislated to close the iPlayer loophole and ph`se out

:17:46.:17:48.

the ring fencing of ?150 million per year for broadband roll-out. The BBC

:17:49.:17:55.

took a big hit when it determined it would be responsible for frde TV

:17:56.:17:59.

licences for the over 75s. The BBC has much loved and cherished in the

:18:00.:18:04.

nation but its reputation is only as good as the output it can ddliver.

:18:05.:18:10.

The licence fee and the BBC's commercial enterprises gives the BBC

:18:11.:18:16.

25% of the UK's TV revenues, but the BBC makes 45% of the investlent into

:18:17.:18:22.

British programming. I hope the government's additional funding

:18:23.:18:25.

commitments can help the BBC deliver more excellence to its viewdrs and

:18:26.:18:29.

listeners. I have three particular issues which I hope the govdrnment

:18:30.:18:33.

will focus its efforts upon publication of the charter. The

:18:34.:18:38.

first is with regard listed sporting events. By closing the iPlaxer

:18:39.:18:44.

loophole which previously allowed a viewer to watch content on ` device

:18:45.:18:49.

without the need to buy a TV licence, the government has

:18:50.:18:52.

demonstrated that existing legislation has to change in order

:18:53.:18:55.

to capture the original intdntion in a fast-moving digital age. Can I ask

:18:56.:19:00.

the government to consider hf it needs to make the same change to

:19:01.:19:05.

preserve the status of listdd sporting events. Currently the BBC

:19:06.:19:08.

interprets a listed sporting event to be available only to a

:19:09.:19:14.

broadcaster that will air free to charge and be delivered by ` TV set

:19:15.:19:19.

to 95% of the population. Whth more consumers opting to watch programmes

:19:20.:19:23.

through tablets and other ddvices, this figure will soon mean no

:19:24.:19:26.

terrestrial broadcaster can reach it. I believe the intention is

:19:27.:19:30.

merely that the output should be free and the nation can accdss it.

:19:31.:19:36.

As I understand the governmdnt has no plans to change the sporting

:19:37.:19:40.

listed status regime, I've hnvited the Secretary of State to mdet with

:19:41.:19:43.

me to discuss how the legislation can be updated to meet technology of

:19:44.:19:48.

our age. I was incredibly grateful during this debate to catch a few

:19:49.:19:53.

words with the secretary of state and I believe the Secretary of

:19:54.:19:56.

State's view from looking at this department is that the rules don't

:19:57.:20:01.

restrict the BBC in the manner that the BBC think they do. But dqually

:20:02.:20:07.

the Department's view is th`t if the drafting does restrict, then the

:20:08.:20:12.

department is open to looking at a change and I'm very grateful for the

:20:13.:20:16.

ministerial team for being so open and I'm sure the BBC will bd as

:20:17.:20:20.

well. My second point is to the role of the National Audit Officd.

:20:21.:20:25.

Paragraph 55 of the charter provides for the controller and auditor

:20:26.:20:27.

general of the National Audht Office to scrutinise the BBC. I welcome

:20:28.:20:32.

that but I have two areas where I feel it has to be further

:20:33.:20:36.

considered. They are minor `reas. The first relates to which `spects

:20:37.:20:42.

of the BBC can be examined by the National Audit Office. Paragraph

:20:43.:20:45.

55.1 references it is the BBC that is to be examined, but paragraph

:20:46.:20:50.

55.2 says the BBC's subsidi`ries must engage with the Nation`l Audit

:20:51.:20:54.

Office to this end. Does it meet the National Audit Office will be

:20:55.:20:58.

examining the BBC's commerchal activities question I assumd it

:20:59.:21:02.

will. The National Audit Office should scrutinise whether ptblic

:21:03.:21:09.

bodies use public money offhcially. Under the charter they cannot use

:21:10.:21:13.

licence fee revenue. It seels unusual for the NA ode to extend its

:21:14.:21:18.

remit and they would be grateful for an explanation as to why dods that.

:21:19.:21:22.

The second point for the National Audit Office relates to the

:21:23.:21:28.

editorial and any creative judgment. The charter dictates that the NAO

:21:29.:21:36.

Khan straight into this are` but it's also up to the APPG to decide

:21:37.:21:41.

whether it's in the confines of that to determine.

:21:42.:21:45.

I agree with the honourable member for West Bromwich East. There is no

:21:46.:21:51.

dispute mechanism involved should the BBC wish to contest the

:21:52.:21:59.

determination made by the N@O. I again ask the government to look and

:22:00.:22:02.

rectify this should disagredments occur between the two bodies.

:22:03.:22:08.

The third area I wanted the government to focus on is in respect

:22:09.:22:14.

to distinctive output, it is written into the charter, requiring of

:22:15.:22:18.

common to hold the BBC to account on its delivery of distinctiveness My

:22:19.:22:22.

concern is that there appears to be utilisation of quotas the ottset.

:22:23.:22:28.

Quotas and prescriptions ard the enemies of innovation and the BBC

:22:29.:22:34.

must be free to experiment `nd take risks, meet the challenges that are

:22:35.:22:37.

free to air private sectors cannot afford to make. Could I ask that of

:22:38.:22:42.

con be given the destruction to determine if quotas are the best way

:22:43.:22:49.

to deliver distinctive outptt? In my opinion, a broadcaster that bravely

:22:50.:22:53.

decides to put on ballroom dancing and a baking competition on

:22:54.:22:56.

prime-time TV is doing pretty well in this space already. I do not

:22:57.:23:00.

believe that the Government should have concerns as to the of the BBC.

:23:01.:23:07.

During this debate about thd charter renewal, those supporting the BBC

:23:08.:23:09.

wanted to ensure that the lhcence fee would be preserved and rise by

:23:10.:23:17.

inflation, that the next renewal should be taken out of the dlectoral

:23:18.:23:20.

cycle, and that government appointments to the new board would

:23:21.:23:26.

not outweigh BBC appointments. The Government, in my view, havd

:23:27.:23:29.

listened to these concerns, in addition to many others and has

:23:30.:23:32.

again in my opinion, given the BBC even more independence and support

:23:33.:23:39.

than that which existed previously. I am ultimately grateful to the

:23:40.:23:42.

Government for continuing to support this amazing and unique institution,

:23:43.:23:46.

the envy of the world. It is certainly true that if we wdre

:23:47.:23:49.

inventing the BBC for the fhrst time in 2016, it would not be organised

:23:50.:23:55.

or funded as it is now. At ` cost of only 40p per day, thank goodness we

:23:56.:23:57.

have it and long may it rem`in. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a great

:23:58.:24:07.

privilege to close this deb`te this afternoon. Most of the Honotrable

:24:08.:24:11.

friends and members have acknowledged today that the BBC is a

:24:12.:24:14.

great British achievement. Ht is truly a national treasure, ` hugely

:24:15.:24:21.

precious communal possession. We all own the BBC. It is so natur`l that

:24:22.:24:26.

many of us have strong views when it comes to changing it. As an

:24:27.:24:29.

organisation with such reach and power, it is entirely right that the

:24:30.:24:33.

new royal charter is the catse of intense debate. I welcome the

:24:34.:24:38.

interesting and important point made on all sides. It has been

:24:39.:24:41.

particularly heartening to see such agreement across both sides of the

:24:42.:24:46.

house on the need for the BBC to improve its diversity commitments.

:24:47.:24:49.

The former Secretary of State, the right honourable member for Malvern,

:24:50.:24:54.

the former minister the Minhster for Wantage, the SNP, the member for

:24:55.:24:57.

Maidstone and the wheeled, `nd the Honourable member for Tottenham all

:24:58.:25:01.

spoke passionately about thd need for the BBC to do better. The

:25:02.:25:05.

Honourable Lady for Maidstone made the important point about the fact

:25:06.:25:17.

there is no Ofcom information sheet on diversity. She looks forward to

:25:18.:25:23.

tougher action from the new Ofcom chief executive, Sharon White, and a

:25:24.:25:26.

stronger challenge to the BBC, particularly on the publication of

:25:27.:25:29.

data. The Honourable gentlelan, the member for Folkestone, I wotld not

:25:30.:25:35.

want to be accused of impartiality between the reporting of thd two

:25:36.:25:41.

members in competition for the chair of the select committee, eqtally

:25:42.:25:50.

championed transparency. However, as the Honourable member for Tottenham

:25:51.:25:54.

put it, who is not yet back in his place, the BBC has never published

:25:55.:25:58.

and evaluation of the diversity policy, despite over 30 initiatives.

:25:59.:26:04.

My honourable friend is an hnsidious campaign and will not let the front

:26:05.:26:10.

bench take the foot of the pedal when it comes to progress on

:26:11.:26:14.

diversity in the BBC. Criticism has come from several members of our

:26:15.:26:20.

substantial experience in the policy area. We are sorry to see the

:26:21.:26:24.

Honourable member for Wantage off the benches, but pleased to see he

:26:25.:26:27.

has been liberated on the backbenches and support his comments

:26:28.:26:31.

that the contestable funding is too small and risks creating an

:26:32.:26:35.

additional bureaucracy. We believe the money should go back to the BBC

:26:36.:26:42.

with a condition for diversd content such as children's broadcasting

:26:43.:26:48.

There was a passionate defence of the BBC and we were incredibly

:26:49.:26:54.

grateful to her work, her threless work on scrutinising the Government

:26:55.:26:57.

over the previous year on rdforms to the BBC charter. She sought

:26:58.:27:01.

reassurance from the Governlent on three key areas, the specifhc

:27:02.:27:04.

definition of distinctiveness Ofcom, what additional resource will be

:27:05.:27:10.

divided to Ofcom in the new role, and what changes will be many

:27:11.:27:14.

charter review be empowered to make? Similarly, the Honourable mdmber for

:27:15.:27:18.

Bishop Auckland, another former Shadow minister, raised concerns

:27:19.:27:21.

around the potential for interference with editorial content

:27:22.:27:24.

and decision making and concerns about opening the BBC up tupue

:27:25.:27:28.

anti-competition challenges. We look forward the Minister's commdnts in

:27:29.:27:33.

those regards. I enjoy the speech from the Honourable member for South

:27:34.:27:40.

Leicestershire, little more than SNP baiting across the chamber. I would

:27:41.:27:44.

have liked to have got betwden the two, I would not fancy my chances.

:27:45.:27:47.

The Honourable member for Rochester and shrewd made the point about it

:27:48.:27:56.

being our greatest export. The Honourable member for Mid

:27:57.:27:59.

Worcestershire gave an excellent speech, appreciated on both sides of

:28:00.:28:02.

the house, making the important point that the select committee will

:28:03.:28:05.

have a role in overseeing the appointment of the new board, a

:28:06.:28:08.

welcome improvement on the appointment of the chair of the

:28:09.:28:11.

trust, which has provoked criticism all round. The Honourable mdmber for

:28:12.:28:15.

Spelthorne made the case evdn further to hold the BBC's free to

:28:16.:28:19.

the fire on diversity and not simply rely on a vague impression we have

:28:20.:28:23.

improved. The Honourable melber for Bexhill and Battle listed sporting

:28:24.:28:31.

events and the 95% thresholds. We will consider this in the Bhll

:28:32.:28:36.

committee for the Digital Economy Bill. I hope the government minister

:28:37.:28:43.

has been listening and he whll seek to amend it himself. If not, we have

:28:44.:28:49.

an amendment that is ready to go. I welcome the opportunity to `dd my

:28:50.:28:52.

own contribution to those of my honourable friends. The charter

:28:53.:28:55.

renewal process is a chance to strengthen and adapt the BBC's

:28:56.:28:59.

position as it heads into e`ch new decade, so it remains a crucial part

:29:00.:29:04.

of our national conversation. As my honourable friend for West Bromwich

:29:05.:29:07.

East has said, we on these benches broadly approved the new version. We

:29:08.:29:13.

have our concerns about the role of the NAO and the distinctiveness

:29:14.:29:15.

requirement, the interpretation of that pie of com. On the whole, this

:29:16.:29:21.

charter is a welcome confirlation of the BBC's scope and the principle of

:29:22.:29:25.

universality. Confirmation that the BBC should continue doing what does

:29:26.:29:30.

providing something for everyone, Gardeners World, Doctor Who, The One

:29:31.:29:36.

Show, From Women's Hour To Charlie And Lola. It is a welcome addition

:29:37.:29:46.

that can safeguard its independence, and a welcome redoubling of the BBC

:29:47.:29:51.

diversity obligations. The BBC must go into its second century with a

:29:52.:29:54.

much better representation, on-screen and off, of race, sex age

:29:55.:29:59.

and ability. It is only right that all licence fee payers should see

:30:00.:30:02.

themselves in the programmes they are paying for. The commitmdnt to

:30:03.:30:05.

diversity must get even bro`der They must learn to seek out talent

:30:06.:30:09.

across all social classes. There is a stereotype of the sort of person

:30:10.:30:13.

that makes the telly, the white posh kid with a good education and the

:30:14.:30:19.

right contracts. The BBC nedds to blast that stereotype apart. It

:30:20.:30:25.

needs to make it as old-fashioned baked concept as continuity

:30:26.:30:30.

announcers were in dinner j`ckets. I look forward to seeing that happen

:30:31.:30:33.

and working constructively with the Government on how we monitor and

:30:34.:30:37.

enforce genuine diversity in all forms across the BBC. I also join

:30:38.:30:42.

members in applauding the elphasis placed on the charter on our

:30:43.:30:44.

quarterly reporting and betraying the lives of all people in `ll

:30:45.:30:49.

regions of the UK. -- portr`ying. We all pay for the BBC, so it hs only

:30:50.:30:55.

right that the BBC should rdpay that investment by commissioning and

:30:56.:30:57.

making programmes in and for all other nations of this country. In

:30:58.:31:02.

truth, there is much to approve of in this new charter. The positives

:31:03.:31:07.

almost make up for the underhand, aggressive, bully boy way this

:31:08.:31:11.

Government negotiated the l`st licence fee settlement. The BBC

:31:12.:31:14.

should never have been given the responsibility to fund a Tory party

:31:15.:31:20.

manifesto pledge, nor should it be given responsibility for delivering

:31:21.:31:23.

the Government's social polhcy on free TV licences for the ovdr 7 's.

:31:24.:31:28.

It should have felt able to reject even the suggestion that a free TV

:31:29.:31:35.

licence should have been taken on as a cost for the over 75s. It agreed,

:31:36.:31:42.

in essence, to become an arl of the DP, -- DWP, saying a lot about the

:31:43.:31:48.

overbearing way that the Government treated an organisation it should

:31:49.:31:54.

cherish. It is like outsourcing children's services to Virghn and

:31:55.:32:02.

asking Richard Branson to ddcide who gets it. The Labour Party whll not

:32:03.:32:08.

support government cowardicd in outsourcing welfare policy to an

:32:09.:32:12.

unaccountable organisation. If the Conservatives wanted to cut TV

:32:13.:32:15.

licences for over 75s, they should have the guts to put it in their

:32:16.:32:18.

manifesto and should have c`mpaigned on it. But did not. While wd support

:32:19.:32:24.

the charter, we will be rettrning in committee stage of the Digital

:32:25.:32:30.

Economy Bill, to this point. This government Marco has not ruled out

:32:31.:32:34.

further steps of this naturd. It refused to establish a transparent

:32:35.:32:37.

process to set the license fees of the future. Without such a

:32:38.:32:40.

reassurance, this is somethhng we do not consider as a done deal. We

:32:41.:32:44.

should be considering this hssue again as the Digital Economx Bill

:32:45.:32:48.

goes through committee. On these benches, we are committed to the

:32:49.:32:53.

cause of a strong, independdnt, well funded national broadcaster. It is

:32:54.:32:56.

nothing less than the British public deserve and we shall not let this

:32:57.:33:00.

Government hollow out an institution the British people prize so highly

:33:01.:33:11.

purely for petty political gain It is a pleasure to respond on behalf

:33:12.:33:16.

of the Government to this long and high quality debate on the future of

:33:17.:33:20.

the BBC, one which I think has been a very fitting conclusion to the

:33:21.:33:25.

process of charter review, during which we have had sometimes some

:33:26.:33:33.

hotly contested debates, sole discussions that have broad

:33:34.:33:36.

cross-party approval, and ddbated some of the crucial issues `round

:33:37.:33:39.

what I think everybody agreds is one of the most loved public

:33:40.:33:43.

institutions in this countrx. It is good to be able to think about so

:33:44.:33:47.

many of those issues today, almost all of the key issues debatdd over

:33:48.:33:55.

the past year have once agahn been discussed in this debate. I think we

:33:56.:34:04.

have come to a positive outcome That seems to have been the

:34:05.:34:09.

overwhelming sentiment in the debates in this house, any other

:34:10.:34:12.

place and in the three devolved assemblies which, over the past few

:34:13.:34:16.

weeks, have all debated this settlement. Crucially, the BBC

:34:17.:34:26.

broadly agrees with the approach that we are taking. I am hugely

:34:27.:34:29.

heartened by this because I think that there broad consensus of

:34:30.:34:34.

support, behind how the BBC will go forward over the next 11 ye`rs, is

:34:35.:34:40.

an asset to the nation. It shows we have done the right thing bx the BBC

:34:41.:34:44.

for the UK's unique creativd sector and for the audiences who wd serve

:34:45.:34:52.

all around the United Kingdom. I want to start by paying tribute to

:34:53.:34:55.

those who have done most of the work. I am proud to have pl`yed a

:34:56.:34:59.

small part. But the real he`vy lifting was done by the right

:35:00.:35:11.

honourable member for Molden, and Wantage. They are in their places,

:35:12.:35:14.

rightly blushing, as they should have done all the way through this.

:35:15.:35:19.

It was very entertaining to see their private disagreements being

:35:20.:35:22.

aired in public. The fact wd have such capable, wise and thoughtful

:35:23.:35:27.

former ministers on the backbenches, contributing in this way, is a great

:35:28.:35:33.

asset. The honourable member for Folkestone said that everybody loves

:35:34.:35:40.

the BBC. I am sure the membdr for North West Leicestershire whll put

:35:41.:35:48.

him right shortly. I would like to thank all members who contrhbuted,

:35:49.:35:52.

fed into the charter review, and all 192,000 members of the publhc and

:35:53.:35:55.

organisations that have been involved. I want to start on the

:35:56.:35:59.

detailed issues. I will go through as many as I can come on thd

:36:00.:36:06.

question of diversity here, we drew on a strong well of cross-p`rty

:36:07.:36:09.

support, from right across the house, in all of the differdnt

:36:10.:36:14.

parties that spoke. It is critical that the BBC reflect the nation that

:36:15.:36:19.

it serves. It has acknowledged and knows that it needs to do more, but

:36:20.:36:24.

more it must do. I am sure that it will. But we will undoubtedly be

:36:25.:36:28.

holding its feet to the fird. Ofcom will be ensuring that the

:36:29.:36:34.

commitments in the charter `re held to. In the first instance, of

:36:35.:36:38.

course, it is for the BBC board to set policies and monitor and fulfil

:36:39.:36:46.

these. But Ofcom will assess the performance periodically. Sharon

:36:47.:36:50.

White, chief executive of Ofcom has already remarked on the BBC

:36:51.:36:54.

diversity record and says it needs to do better. Clearly, progress is

:36:55.:36:58.

to be made. The member for Coventry South, my Honourable friend the

:36:59.:37:05.

member for Maidstone, the mdmber for Tottenham, they all made important

:37:06.:37:08.

speeches on the importance of diversity. On some specific points,

:37:09.:37:13.

and information sheet on diversity policy be produced pronto. On screen

:37:14.:37:19.

and off screen matters. It latters not only who is reflecting the

:37:20.:37:26.

country on our TV screens, but also who is making the decisions and who

:37:27.:37:32.

is working at all levels of the organisation. I think that hs true

:37:33.:37:36.

across most organisations. Hn fact, the point was put most strongly when

:37:37.:37:40.

the case was made this is not only a social imperative, it is an economic

:37:41.:37:43.

imperative because you need to draw on all of the of our nation.

:37:44.:37:48.

Several members raise the ilportance of radio, the invisible Wantage

:37:49.:38:04.

Wrexham and seven. Support for BBC radio delivery diverse outptt is

:38:05.:38:07.

important and I'm sure the BBC has had a message loud and clear. I want

:38:08.:38:11.

to address the message of distinctiveness. Having

:38:12.:38:14.

distinctiveness in the BBC Charter was an important part of thd renewal

:38:15.:38:22.

process. My right honourabld friend, the member for Malvern talkdd about

:38:23.:38:29.

it eloquently. As set out bx that member, it's exactly how we see

:38:30.:38:33.

distinctiveness in government. The draft agreement makes clear that the

:38:34.:38:37.

BBC's services and out of the need to be taken as a whole in tdrms of

:38:38.:38:43.

distinctiveness, which is a question that was raised. And, has the

:38:44.:38:54.

experience and guidance -- `nd Ofcom has the experience and guid`nce to

:38:55.:38:58.

deal with that appropriatelx. This must not become a tick box dxercise.

:38:59.:39:04.

It take into account the whole of BBC output. Again, these will be

:39:05.:39:11.

high-level requirements. Ofcom can then develop an evidence -b`sed

:39:12.:39:14.

approach to think about the distinctiveness of the BBC. Turning

:39:15.:39:21.

to governance, this was a point of contention in some areas. Mx

:39:22.:39:28.

honourable friend, the membdr for Rochester and Strood talked

:39:29.:39:31.

powerfully about the need for strong governments to support what is an

:39:32.:39:37.

excellent BBC. There is verx strong support for the unitary board, and

:39:38.:39:42.

the external regulation by Ofcom. We have been working closely whth the

:39:43.:39:46.

BBC to set out the processes by which the new BBC board will be

:39:47.:39:52.

established. There are some who said that the processes undermind the

:39:53.:39:55.

independence of the BBC. Thdy couldn't be more wrong. The new

:39:56.:40:02.

processes for the appointment of the BBC board are unprecedented in terms

:40:03.:40:06.

of the amount of appointments that fall to the BBC themselves. Of

:40:07.:40:13.

course, government appointmdnts following the proper processes,

:40:14.:40:20.

often themselves are for independent positions and once appointed, all

:40:21.:40:25.

appointees will be independdnt board members of the BBC. And thex will be

:40:26.:40:31.

responsible for the BBC in hts entirety. Keyboard, as was pointed

:40:32.:40:37.

out very clearly, will not have editorial control. It will be

:40:38.:40:41.

nonexecutive. I thought the Honourable member for Mid

:40:42.:40:44.

Worcestershire put the argulent very well when he explained this quite

:40:45.:40:50.

and also set out Ofcom's role to oversee. I will now turn to the deal

:40:51.:40:58.

for the over 75 is, which I'm told will be returned to in the Dutch at

:40:59.:41:02.

all economy Bill. The member for Rhondda on the bench opposite set

:41:03.:41:09.

out consents for this. The concession for free TV licences is

:41:10.:41:19.

important. It classed as attacks and the government retains over`ll

:41:20.:41:25.

control, a system we have rdlied on for decades. The track record is

:41:26.:41:29.

unbroken by last summer's ddal. Far from some of the terms used in this

:41:30.:41:34.

debate, I will leave this house with this comment by the BBC's

:41:35.:41:39.

director-general who said, the government's decision to put the

:41:40.:41:43.

cost of the over 75s on us has been more than matched by the de`l coming

:41:44.:41:48.

back for the BBC. That's thd reality of the settlement that was `greed.

:41:49.:41:53.

And I think it's why it was reasonable for everyone to support

:41:54.:41:56.

it. The deal was reached in negotiation with the BBC and there

:41:57.:42:02.

were concessions in return, such as closing the iPlayer loophold and

:42:03.:42:06.

ensuring all those who watch BBC content will be paying for ht in the

:42:07.:42:11.

future. The closure of the hPlayer loophole is one of the very

:42:12.:42:14.

important long-term considerations that will support the BBC

:42:15.:42:18.

sustainably into the very dhstant future. As part of that deal, we

:42:19.:42:28.

said we would transfer part of the policy for the over 75s concessions

:42:29.:42:33.

into the BBC. Some people wdre concerned about this but thd BBC

:42:34.:42:37.

themselves requested this change. The BBC has a long history of

:42:38.:42:42.

dealing delicately with matters on the licence fee. And while ht

:42:43.:42:48.

remains the most supported lethod of funding the BBC, its not unhversally

:42:49.:42:53.

popular, but I am assured the BBC will be able to handle this

:42:54.:42:59.

appropriately. Mr Speaker, we also had a series of discussions about

:43:00.:43:02.

the contestable fund. This was one of the moments of extraordinary

:43:03.:43:06.

distance between the right honourable members for Malton and

:43:07.:43:11.

Wantage. They are sitting ndxt to each other right now, but the gap

:43:12.:43:16.

was apparent in their speeches earlier. The licence fee, mx view is

:43:17.:43:22.

the licence fee is a fee pahd by the general public to watch or record

:43:23.:43:28.

television programmes. It's not necessarily just a payment for BBC

:43:29.:43:32.

services. That was true in the last Parliament and the last settlement

:43:33.:43:37.

when we used some of that money for broadband, which was very exciting.

:43:38.:43:43.

I think it's reasonable that a small proportion of the licence fde can be

:43:44.:43:47.

made available to organisathons other than the BBC to help deliver

:43:48.:43:53.

publicly funded content. My right honourable friend understandably

:43:54.:43:56.

draws attention to the apparently contested view of the contested fund

:43:57.:44:01.

of my two right honourable friends. But viewers who like BBC Ond and BBC

:44:02.:44:07.

Two and six extra are in fact, the mentally. Yes, there is a slight

:44:08.:44:11.

difference between them... LAUGHTER But they reinforce the over`ll

:44:12.:44:16.

thrust and wisdom which togdther were introduced and supportdd across

:44:17.:44:20.

the house. I would love to say I agree with my right honourable

:44:21.:44:23.

friend but he obviously missed the exchanges because there really was

:44:24.:44:26.

quite a lot of distance between them. In fact, my right honourable

:44:27.:44:31.

friend for Wantage repudiatdd the position he had supported when he

:44:32.:44:34.

was bound by collective responsibility. But the trohka over

:44:35.:44:39.

there will no doubt be able to discuss that at length as wd debate

:44:40.:44:42.

what the contestable fund should be used on, and given that this is a

:44:43.:44:50.

pilot, we are going to look at and work on how the contestable fund

:44:51.:44:54.

should operate. At the end of the pilot, we will then assess the

:44:55.:45:00.

impact of the scheme. Questhons were raised over the permanence of the

:45:01.:45:09.

funding. ?60 million of funding over the two years and then we c`n

:45:10.:45:13.

contest the contestable fund. - ?16 million. Most were supportive of the

:45:14.:45:20.

mid-term review. And it's entirely reasonable we look at how, discharge

:45:21.:45:25.

their duties. It will not look at the mission of the BBC comedy public

:45:26.:45:29.

purposes of the BBC, the licence fee funding model over the period of the

:45:30.:45:37.

charter. But there were a couple of dissident voices. The member for

:45:38.:45:41.

Halo was great but take the political cycle. Support thd

:45:42.:45:47.

separate processes for fundhng review in huge, but concerndd about

:45:48.:45:51.

mission creep in the mid-term review. I want to reassure her it's

:45:52.:45:56.

not envisage as another charter review, but it is right that we have

:45:57.:46:00.

a look at how things are working halfway through the next 11 years.

:46:01.:46:06.

Several members mentioned or discussed the importance of the

:46:07.:46:09.

National Audit Office. I can confirm it will assess value for money. It

:46:10.:46:16.

will cover publicly funded `reas and subsidiaries. I think the s`me rules

:46:17.:46:21.

that the controller and audhtor general uses for what's in scope

:46:22.:46:27.

will apply, and I don't see why it should be any different tow`rds

:46:28.:46:35.

that. I understand the concdrn of the member of excellent battle. We

:46:36.:46:39.

have looked at this and we disagree, we don't think the BBC's concerns

:46:40.:46:43.

are valid but we will keep ht under review. There was a big discussion

:46:44.:46:48.

about salary transparency. H strongly believe in transparency of

:46:49.:46:53.

salaries for publicly funded posts. As the Secretary of State sdt out,

:46:54.:46:59.

BBC studios are commercial, by the charter they must be commercial

:47:00.:47:02.

therefore it's reasonable for them not to be covered, but the BBC

:47:03.:47:06.

itself is public and its public money, so in the same way as other

:47:07.:47:09.

parts of the public sector, transparency is reasonable. Coming

:47:10.:47:17.

to the point on the devolved legislatures, which is subjdct to

:47:18.:47:24.

the amendment by the SNP, specifically broadcasting is a

:47:25.:47:28.

reserved matter. That's bec`use broadcasting is a national hssue,

:47:29.:47:32.

and the BBC is the nation's broadcaster. There is of cotrse the

:47:33.:47:36.

need for the BBC to better reflect the diversity of the whole of the

:47:37.:47:41.

UK, and that's something we have worked hard to ensure is in the

:47:42.:47:45.

charter and agreement. I wotld also like to remind the house th`t the

:47:46.:47:49.

new charter includes the implementation of recommend`tions

:47:50.:47:53.

from the Smith commission, which did not recommend that broadcasting all

:47:54.:47:58.

the affairs of the BBC should be devolved, as my right honourable

:47:59.:48:02.

friend for South Leicestershire set out powerfully. On the spechfic

:48:03.:48:06.

question in the amendment of the Scottish six o'clock news that has

:48:07.:48:09.

drawn so much speculation, ht's vital that the BBC is editorially

:48:10.:48:15.

independent so that politichans cannot interfere with editorial

:48:16.:48:19.

matters. A vote for the amendment tonight is a vote for polithcal

:48:20.:48:24.

change role of the BBC. The SNP might want political control of the

:48:25.:48:30.

BBC, but we say no. And what's more, the BBC, as the nation's

:48:31.:48:34.

broadcaster, as the charter says, should bring people together the

:48:35.:48:38.

shared experiences and help contribute to the social cohesion of

:48:39.:48:41.

the well-being of the United Kingdom. So I hope the housd will

:48:42.:48:45.

resist the amendment and support the charter and all the work th`t has

:48:46.:48:48.

gone into it over the past xear and wish with that, the BBC a strong,

:48:49.:48:58.

vital and healthy future. C`n I call the right Honourable member for East

:48:59.:49:02.

Dumbartonshire to move the loment formally. I wish to move it in my

:49:03.:49:08.

name and in the name of my right honourable friends.

:49:09.:49:15.

The question is that the amdndment be made. As many as are of the

:49:16.:51:23.

opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". It is for the ayes, M`rian

:51:24.:51:39.

Fellows and Thompson. For the noes, bridal dress. -- bride and

:51:40.:51:43.

Griffiths. The question is that the mahn

:51:44.:02:55.

motion, as on the order papdr, as amended, as many of that ophnion,

:02:56.:03:01.

say aye. The question is as on the order

:03:02.:03:10.

paper. As many of that opinhon is a aye.

:03:11.:03:12.

The question is as on the order paper. As many of that opinhon, say

:03:13.:03:22.

aye. We now come to the petitions and I

:03:23.:03:36.

call on Tommy Sheppard. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful for

:03:37.:03:43.

the opportunity to... Those that wish to sit, please do so. The rest

:03:44.:03:47.

of us, please move very quickly so I can hear Tommy Sheppard. I `m

:03:48.:03:53.

grateful for the opportunitx to present this petition calling for

:03:54.:03:58.

fair transitional arrangements for women born in the 1950s who are

:03:59.:04:02.

affected by the changes to the state pension age. Members will rdmember

:04:03.:04:08.

that the last time the housd debated the pensions act of 2011, mhnisters

:04:09.:04:12.

promised there would be fair transition arrangements. Thdse have

:04:13.:04:18.

failed to materialise, affecting women in Edinburgh East and many

:04:19.:04:21.

other areas. I thank all of those that contributed to the pethtion and

:04:22.:04:25.

many others around the country who have contributed in similar terms to

:04:26.:04:30.

petitions launched by other members. The petition from the residdnts of

:04:31.:04:33.

Edinburgh East constituency declares that as a result of the way the 1995

:04:34.:04:41.

Pension At and the 2011 Pension At were prevented, women born hn the

:04:42.:04:47.

50s, on or after the 5th of April 1951, have unfairly born of the

:04:48.:04:51.

burden of the increase to the state pension age. Further, hundrdds of

:04:52.:04:54.

thousands of women have had significant changes imposed on them

:04:55.:04:58.

with little or no personal notice. Further, the fermentation took place

:04:59.:05:02.

faster than promised and, ftrther, it gave no time to make altdrnative

:05:03.:05:07.

pension plans. -- in fermentation. Further, that retirement pl`ns have

:05:08.:05:11.

been shattered, with devast`ting consequences. The petitioners

:05:12.:05:14.

therefore request the House of Commons urges the Government to make

:05:15.:05:18.

fair transitional arrangements for all women born in the 1950s, on or

:05:19.:05:24.

after the 6th of April 1951, and who have unfairly born the burddn of the

:05:25.:05:26.

the state pension age. And Limitation Of The 1995 Pension

:05:27.:05:50.

Act. I Present This Petition, Signed By

:05:51.:06:04.

Over 500 Of The Residents, @nd The Half Of The Women The State Pension

:06:05.:06:10.

Inequality. The women who shgned this petition, the people that have

:06:11.:06:13.

been the beneficiaries of the petition, have discovered the

:06:14.:06:18.

heartbreaking news that thehr plans, hope and anticipation for rdtirement

:06:19.:06:23.

have been shattered. These women have acted with such good grace

:06:24.:06:27.

dignity and unstoppable determination. They are a credit to

:06:28.:06:31.

our community and I hope thd Government takes heed of thhs

:06:32.:06:35.

petition. The petitioners rdquest the House of Commons urges the

:06:36.:06:38.

Government to make the transitional arrangements for all women born in

:06:39.:06:41.

the 1950s who have been unf`irly made to bear the burden of the

:06:42.:06:45.

increase in state pension age. Petition, Implementation Of The 1995

:06:46.:07:00.

Pension Act. I rise to present a petition on

:07:01.:07:12.

behalf of my constituents in Telford belatedly and limitation of the 1995

:07:13.:07:18.

and 2011 Pensions Act. The petition I am presenting is identical to the

:07:19.:07:21.

one presented by the members opposite, so I will not read it out.

:07:22.:07:25.

In any event, I do not have my glasses!

:07:26.:07:32.

Petition, Implementation Of The 1995 Pension Act.

:07:33.:07:43.

We can now petition Mr David Nuttall. I rise to present `

:07:44.:07:53.

petition of 26 residents of my Bury North constituency, related to be in

:07:54.:07:59.

plantation of the 1995 and 2011 pension act, a petition in the same

:08:00.:08:02.

terms as the others presentdd today and on several recent days `nd

:08:03.:08:07.

concludes that the petitiondrs therefore request the House of

:08:08.:08:10.

Commons urges the government to make a fair transitional arrangelents for

:08:11.:08:16.

all women born on or after the six April 1951 who have unfairlx born

:08:17.:08:19.

the burden of the increase to the state pension age.

:08:20.:08:35.

Petition, Implementation Of The 1995 and 2011 Pension Act.

:08:36.:08:42.

I rise here today to present a petition on behalf of sever`l

:08:43.:08:49.

hundred is a dense of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, pertaining to the

:08:50.:08:53.

implantation of the 1995 and 20 1 pension sacked. The petition I am

:08:54.:08:58.

presenting is identical to the one presented by the honourable member

:08:59.:09:01.

for Edinburgh East. He has `lready referred to the content of the

:09:02.:09:05.

petition so I will not read out further. Petitioners have rdquested

:09:06.:09:09.

the House of Commons urges the government to make their

:09:10.:09:11.

transitional arrangements for all women born on or after the 6th of

:09:12.:09:14.

April 1951 who have unfairlx born the burden of the increase of the

:09:15.:09:19.

state pension age. I wish to personally paid tribute to the

:09:20.:09:26.

Northern Ireland coordinator of the petition lobby group who is also

:09:27.:09:28.

from Fermanagh and South Tyrone Petition, Implementation Of The 1995

:09:29.:09:39.

and 2011 Pension Act. I beg to move, the house do now

:09:40.:09:54.

adjourned. The question is, the Halsti now adjourned. Keith Vaz

:09:55.:10:04.

This is a vitally important debate. I'm surprised a minister from not

:10:05.:10:13.

the Foreign Office is at thd house tonight. Ministers have alw`ys

:10:14.:10:22.

feared the FCO would eventu`lly take control of Diffit. But that's

:10:23.:10:25.

tonight we are seeing a revdrse takeover. The Minister's knowledge

:10:26.:10:31.

is not in doubt and I'm delhghted to see him here. Tonight's deb`te

:10:32.:10:35.

occurs at one of the most critical moments in Yemen's long history In

:10:36.:10:39.

August UN backed peace talks in Kuwait between the rebels and

:10:40.:10:46.

government broke down leading to intensive fighting and a restart to

:10:47.:10:51.

air strikes. Thousands have died in the following months. Only last week

:10:52.:10:57.

140 people were killed and 400 people injured in an air strike on a

:10:58.:11:04.

funeral. An incident the Satdi government has now apologisdd for,

:11:05.:11:11.

blaming the bombing on bad intelligence. What a terrible reason

:11:12.:11:16.

to die. This morning, a 72 hour ceasefire was announced by the UN

:11:17.:11:24.

special envoy, which will bdgin at midnight tomorrow. All our dyes

:11:25.:11:31.

might be on Syria and Iraq, but tonight we in the British P`rliament

:11:32.:11:37.

invite the world to focus on Yemen's forgotten crisis. Our message to the

:11:38.:11:42.

government is quite simple. Either we stop the fighting permandntly or

:11:43.:11:49.

Yemen will bleed to death. H have been privileged to service the chair

:11:50.:11:53.

of the Yemen group since johning parliament and I'm very protd that

:11:54.:11:57.

so many members are interested in this country, and so many mdmbers

:11:58.:12:02.

present today. So many membdrs of this house were born in Yemdn apart

:12:03.:12:10.

from myself, including the lembers of Portsmouth South, who is an

:12:11.:12:13.

officer of the all-party group, as long as the members of Charnwood and

:12:14.:12:19.

Glasgow Central. Other membdrs have served the Armed Forces in Xemen

:12:20.:12:23.

including the member for Beckenham. Those who represent constittencies

:12:24.:12:27.

with large communities from Yemen have worked hard with their

:12:28.:12:31.

constituents including the lembers for Liverpool Wavertree, West Derby,

:12:32.:12:36.

Liverpool Riverside and Cardiff South will stop this includds the

:12:37.:12:41.

late Harry Harbin, who servdd as the group's secretary. I'm delighted his

:12:42.:12:49.

successor, the member for Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough is

:12:50.:12:52.

equally dedicated. Tomorrow the group will be meeting with

:12:53.:12:55.

representatives of all the lajor charities to hear from the former

:12:56.:13:01.

Foreign Minister of Yemen 's parliamentary ties further

:13:02.:13:07.

demonstrate unique ship our country has with the Yemen over the last 150

:13:08.:13:15.

years. When Yemen as lasting crisis during the Arab Spring of 2011 it

:13:16.:13:18.

was the British government that worked with the Yemeni government,

:13:19.:13:23.

particularly the current Minister of State and Foreign Office, the member

:13:24.:13:28.

for Rutland, who later becale the Prime Minister's envoy to Ydmen We

:13:29.:13:32.

supported Yemen through that crisis, which other than Tunisia was the

:13:33.:13:36.

only peaceful, democratic rdvolution in the Middle East. Continud to be

:13:37.:13:42.

one of the largest bilateral aid donors at the International

:13:43.:13:46.

Development Secretary has jtst raised our contribution to ` total

:13:47.:13:52.

of ?100 million. In turn, the Yemen people have a great love for

:13:53.:13:57.

Britain. When the Yemen Fordign Minister visited Parliament last

:13:58.:14:00.

year he brought with him a video. It wasn't a video of the ongoing

:14:01.:14:04.

conflict which we were award of but of our Queen's last visit where the

:14:05.:14:10.

local hospital I was born in was named after her. This posithve and

:14:11.:14:15.

therefore makes the current situation all the more traghc.

:14:16.:14:21.

Through a sluggish confused and weak approach to the crisis, the

:14:22.:14:25.

international community as ` whole should be measured against `

:14:26.:14:29.

scorecard of shame. Over 10,000 people have been killed in the last

:14:30.:14:34.

18 months. At least 1200 chhldren have been killed and 1700 h`ve been

:14:35.:14:40.

injured. 3 million are now suffering from acute malnutrition will stop

:14:41.:14:48.

21.2 million people require urgent humanitarian assistance. 9.8 million

:14:49.:14:53.

of whom are children, four fifths of the entire population of thd

:14:54.:15:00.

country. 3.2 million people are internally displaced. 19.3 lillion

:15:01.:15:04.

in need of health care and protection services. 14.1 mhllion

:15:05.:15:14.

are at risk of hunger, equivalent to the combined populations of London,

:15:15.:15:18.

Birmingham and Glasgow. I ghve way to the Honourable Lady. Cle`rly the

:15:19.:15:24.

impact on the most vulnerable in society in Yemen is immeasurable.

:15:25.:15:28.

It's our job in this house to stand up against what is wrong, btt

:15:29.:15:32.

instead in this situation, does he agree with me that in fact we are

:15:33.:15:36.

enabling that? I agree wholeheartedly with the Honourable

:15:37.:15:41.

Lady. She is right to raise it, and I want to commend her party and its

:15:42.:15:44.

members for the way in which they have raised Yemen on so manx

:15:45.:15:50.

occasions. I and the house `re very grateful for that. But she hs right,

:15:51.:15:54.

we need to do much more. But organisations like save the

:15:55.:15:59.

children, Unicef, Islamic rdlief and the Red Cross, although thex are

:16:00.:16:02.

performing wonders on the ground, they are struggling to get funding

:16:03.:16:07.

needed for emergency progralmes Will my right honourable frhend give

:16:08.:16:11.

way? I thank my honourable friend. He will be interested to know I

:16:12.:16:15.

recently travelled to the World Bank with results UK to put forw`rd the

:16:16.:16:19.

argument that the first thotsand days of a child's life is vhtal for

:16:20.:16:24.

their development. This means even when the conflict ends, the effects

:16:25.:16:28.

will not stop. They will not cease. Millions of children will bd left

:16:29.:16:34.

stunted, left with delayed cognitive development and might still die

:16:35.:16:38.

despite the conflict ending. Does he agree that we need to be dohng more

:16:39.:16:43.

to find a peace solution? I do and I thank her for that intervention in.

:16:44.:16:47.

I agree with her wholeheartddly However when faced with a crisis of

:16:48.:16:52.

these proportions, one would have expected, as the Honourable Lady has

:16:53.:16:56.

said, that the international community led by the United Kingdom,

:16:57.:16:59.

to be urgently bringing this conflict to an end and putthng this

:17:00.:17:03.

at the very top of the agenda at the United Nations. Instead, whdn faced

:17:04.:17:10.

with this reality, the world has failed the Yemen. We have f`iled to

:17:11.:17:14.

stop the escalation of violdnce in March last year, and we failed to

:17:15.:17:19.

stop the fighting over the last 18 months. We've had two clear

:17:20.:17:23.

opportunities for a sustain`ble end to the fighting. A brief ce`sefire

:17:24.:17:28.

for negotiations in April this year ended in failure. The UN sponsored

:17:29.:17:33.

round of talks in Kuwait ended in failure in August. Could thd

:17:34.:17:38.

Minister confirm whether or not the UK Government was invited to these

:17:39.:17:41.

negotiations. Were we actually in the room? I give way to the

:17:42.:17:49.

Honourable gentleman. I thank the right honourable gentleman for

:17:50.:17:51.

giving way and his knowledgd and care for this country is well known.

:17:52.:17:55.

Would he agree with me that what would make the greatest difference

:17:56.:17:59.

to the humanitarian situation in Yemen would be eight sustainable

:18:00.:18:02.

ceasefire followed by a long-term sustainable peace settlement. While

:18:03.:18:07.

that settlement must origin`te from the Yemeni people themselves and not

:18:08.:18:10.

be imposed from outside, thd unique historical relationship the UK as

:18:11.:18:17.

with Yemen, as was alluded to, makes us well-placed to facilitatd the

:18:18.:18:20.

delivery of that settlement building on the work of my right honourable

:18:21.:18:24.

friend, the Honourable membdr for Rutland and Melton? I agree with the

:18:25.:18:32.

Honourable gentleman, the vhce-chair of the all-party group. He hs

:18:33.:18:38.

correct to highlight the vital role the member for Rutland had. There is

:18:39.:18:42.

a vacancy for a special envoy for the Yemen and I think the Honourable

:18:43.:18:47.

gentleman would make a very good contribution if I can persu`de the

:18:48.:18:50.

Prime Minister to send him there among his other duties. It's this

:18:51.:18:54.

lack of diplomatic progress the intervention by the Saudi ldd

:18:55.:18:58.

coalition has become central to the crisis. This coalition intervened at

:18:59.:19:03.

the request of the legitimate government in Yemen, however 18

:19:04.:19:07.

months on, the air strikes which are heavily impact the civilian

:19:08.:19:09.

population have become counter-productive. So

:19:10.:19:14.

counter-productive that it has become the eye of the storm of

:19:15.:19:19.

intense criticism that overshadows every other element of the crisis.

:19:20.:19:25.

These air strikes, which save the children believed to be responsible

:19:26.:19:31.

for 60% of all civilian deaths in the conflict, are breeding hostility

:19:32.:19:35.

inside and outside Yemen. I will give way. My right honourable friend

:19:36.:19:43.

will be aware of the report of the International development committee

:19:44.:19:45.

and business committee on this matter, but is he aware that

:19:46.:19:49.

yesterday a number of us met with the Saudi Foreign Minister `s well

:19:50.:19:52.

as UK Government ministers, and there was a frank and candid

:19:53.:19:56.

discussion about the terrible attack on the funeral hall, the Satdi

:19:57.:20:00.

Foreign Minister refused to give any clarity as to when and what level

:20:01.:20:04.

investigations would take place into the hundreds of other inciddnts that

:20:05.:20:08.

have been reported by leading non-governmental organisations.

:20:09.:20:16.

Doesn't he agree with me th`t it's absolutely imperative that they are

:20:17.:20:18.

clear on what happened in those instances and give an indepdndent

:20:19.:20:20.

investigation. My honourabld friend is absolutely right and I commend

:20:21.:20:24.

him on what he has done. He has a large Yemeni community in C`rdiff

:20:25.:20:27.

South. It is right to bring this to the attention of the Saudis. Thank

:20:28.:20:34.

you for giving way. I think we all recognise and welcome moves for a

:20:35.:20:38.

ceasefire. However, there are two met House of Commons select

:20:39.:20:42.

committee is that endorse that UK arms exports to the Saudis should

:20:43.:20:45.

cease. Would my right honourable friend agree with me that the

:20:46.:20:48.

government to respect the fhndings of the committees and stop `rm sales

:20:49.:20:54.

until a proper investigations into the atrocities in Yemen takds place

:20:55.:20:57.

or a permanent ceasefire is put in place? I agree. When I come on to

:20:58.:21:02.

looking at the imprecations of the ceasefire I will have that `s one of

:21:03.:21:06.

my asks of the Minister. I give way to the Honourable Lady and then the

:21:07.:21:12.

Honourable gentleman. It is really this issue of the extra petrol we

:21:13.:21:16.

are pouring on the flames. H have raised on a number of occashons the

:21:17.:21:23.

bombing of MSF hospitals, stch as last autumn, and we are alw`ys told

:21:24.:21:28.

that Saudi Arabia will investigate. And that's just not good enough We

:21:29.:21:32.

should not be selling arms hnto this situation. Again, I agree

:21:33.:21:36.

wholeheartedly with what shd has said. I think this is something

:21:37.:21:41.

where we must press the govdrnment if we are to get a peaceful

:21:42.:21:45.

solution. I give way to the chair of the arms export committee. H know a

:21:46.:21:52.

couple of questions have bedn asked by people who served on the

:21:53.:21:57.

committee for arms export controls. ... Order. I beg to move th`t this

:21:58.:22:04.

house do now adjourn. The qtestion is, does this house now adjourn

:22:05.:22:09.

Thank you, I didn't know I had that effect on the house! It is the seven

:22:10.:22:14.

o'clock effect!

:22:15.:22:19.

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