28/11/2016 House of Commons

people dealing with these problems. There is a clear sense across the

house that there is an issue here that needs addressing and the

government will be looking to take action and I will discuss that with

them. Urgent question, Alison McGovern. Will the Minister make a

statement on the situation in Aleppo?

We are appalled by the entirely preventable humanitarian catastrophe

like taking place in the eastern Aleppo and across other besieged

areas in Syria. The UN Secretary General has described what is

happening in Aleppo as an annihilation. Over the weekend,

Syrian regime forces captured several opposition held districts of

Aleppo, potentially bisecting the besieged eastern part of the city.

There are reports of further advances today. The regime's to a

level has been back predominantly by Iranian and Shia militias. There

have been unconfirmed reports of Russian air strikes and

understanding is that since air strikes resumed a fortnight ago, the

vast majority have been by the regime. During that time, hundreds

have been killed and thousands more are forced to flee. The last

functioning hospital was put out of action on the 19th of November.

Humanitarian access has been deliberately blocked by the regime

and its allies over four months now, leading to 275,000 civilians in

Eastern Aleppo to face imminent starvation. Across the rest of Syria

there have been almost no progress in delivering the UN humanitarian

plan for November. The latest UN plan to deliver humanitarian aid was

agreed by the armed opposition groups last week, but the regime is

still blocking it. This is just the latest of many field efforts. I make

it clear to Russia that using food as a weapon of war is a war crime.

So too is attacking civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and

schools and other favoured tool of the regime and its backers. We call

upon those with influence on the regime, especially Russia and Iran,

to use that influenced him the devastating assault on Eastern

Aleppo and ensure that the UN's humanitarian plan can be implemented

in full. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said

this morning, that requires an immediate ceasefire, and access for

impartial humanitarian actors to ensure the protection of vulnerable

civilians fleeing the fighting. All involved in the siege and the

assault on a level have responsibility to change course to

protect civilians. Addressing the dire situation in Eastern Aleppo and

the wider Syrian conflict is a priority for this government. I

spoke to the British ambassador to the UN this morning to discuss what

we can do in the security council to bring diplomatic pressure to bear on

the conflict. There can be no military solution to this conflict.

What is needed is for the regime and its backers to return to diplomacy

and negotiations on political settlement based on transition away

from President Assad. The government stands ready to engage fully in

discussions and offer whatever support we can in the quest for a

political settlement working in partnership with the international

community, including Russia. We need to maintain international pressure

to that end and that is why we are strong supporters of the recent EU

efforts to extend 28 new sanctions against the regime in October and

November. In the meantime, we continue to work with our key

partners to look at every option to alleviate the suffering of millions

of Syrians, especially those in Aleppo. For as long as the regime

and its backers deny humanitarian access, whether by land or by air,

such options I'm afraid are difficult to come by. But by that

same token, the real solution is straightforward. The Syrian regime

must simply agree to allow UN aid agencies to access those in need.

All that is needed is the decision from Damascus and nothing more. Last

week I am the honourable member for Tunbridge Wells and ahead of the

serious civil defence force, the White helmets, the Parliament. He

told us of the terrible situation in Aleppo, the lack of food, medical

supplies and the constant bombing. Since then, the situation has

worsened. A renewed assault by President Assad has recaptured a

large part of the city, forcing thousands to flee with just the

clothes on their backs. This morning and was sent a statement from the

White helmets which read, dear friends in Britain, Aleppo within a

state of emergency. 279,000 people have been under siege for 94 days

and in the last 13 days the Syrian regime and Russia have more than

2,000 air strikes and unleashed a variety of banned weapons. We are

calling on you as the friends of the Syrian people to act. The Syrian

regime and Russia are refusing to let aid into the cities so we are

calling you to airdrop aid to provide urgent relief to starving

civilians trapped. We do not believe that one of the world's was powerful

countries will allow 279,000 people to be starved and bombed to death.

My question is this, is the Council of despair that we heard from the

Defence Secretary this morning really all we have left? There is

something we can do, we can airdrop aid into the besieged areas and as a

cross-party letters signed by 126 members of this House has demanded,

I asked the Minister to respond to that letter to the Prime Minister

here. We can renew the Bush from the UN for the creation of a

humanitarian corridor to get help to civilians. The government have

always said that error drops are a last resort and they understand

that, but Gareth Bailey, the UK's special representative to Syria has

tweeted about Aleppo today, the situation in Aleppo could not be

more dire, every hospital out of service, no food, nowhere for

civilians to run. Does the Minister agree that the government needs an

urgent strategy to protect civilians? 100s of thousands of

civilians are being starved and bombed into submission, we must

consider error drops. It is time for the last resort. What Britain stands

for on the world stage is being challenged. This is a test. There is

no risk-free course of action left alive believe there is a right

course of action. Let us not stand and watch as one of the great cities

of the is destroyed, let us not allow 100,000 children to start in

Eastern Aleppo. Mr Speaker, when Kosovo was under attack it was

Britain who led the way. When Sierra Leone cried out, it was

Britain who led the way. The people of Syria need asked to show that the

leadership. Gerald Cox said our response to Syria will be an fanatic

of our situation. -- Jo Cox. Her words are ever more true today. Let

us not fail her. Mrs EJ, firstly can I say how grateful I am that the

work she does enraging this matter through questions and indeed with

other colleagues as well. I had the opportunity to meet the head of the

White helmets, I think, the same time she did as well and he's

dressed his frustration that the west was not doing enough as we saw

the annihilation of a historical city, going back to the six

millennia and the financial district and centre of Syria, almost

condemned to ruin. She touches on your letter with 126 now. I made it

clear in my statement that we are looking at all options but she must

understand and I think it has been repeated in this house before that,

were read to do unilateral our multilateral drops, it places asked

in harms way. And in conjunction with what is already happening, we

have to ask if that is the best and safest way to getting age where we

have to go? I say... I say to the honourable lady, we are not ruling

out options but we have to ask ourselves, would introducing British

aircraft into this environment compound matters all make things

worse? Are there safer ways of getting that aid in? What I say, an

answer that to that question, because she raises a larger point

about what is Britain and international community doing? She

mentions the work of Jo Cox as well. I think we can all agree, in this

house, that Britain has the ability and aspiration to play a significant

role on the world stage. We, in 2013 in August, had that opportunity and

read the link. We had an opportunity there to hold Assad to account.

Because of that, we had a situation with Russia and Daesh coming in.

Sign of what are you doing now?! The question I have is to the house and

the person who just screamed from the seat. If we do not give these

support we need, our hands are tied as to what we can do. I turned to

the front bench who I think are of no different opinion to those there

to say that Britain wants to engage on this. We are seeing that five

resolution, UN resolutions and the security Council have been vetoed by

Russia. We need to look at other opportunities. We can only do that

if we have the full support of this Parliament. I hope we will get back.

If the executive is to put forward and lean into this challenge in the

way in which Jo Cox would expect us to do. The whole house will welcome

the unequivocal statement that the Minister made on the Government that

Russia is committing war crimes in Aleppo and Syria. The position in

Aleppo is unclear today but two things they can say our, will be

Government or its undoubted diplomatic efforts and then every

thing you to secure access for UN and you and Jerry and support?

Secondly, everything you to secure a ceasefire so negotiations can begin?

Firstly, can I also offer my congratulations to my honourable

friend who is again engaged in this and done his best to make sure that

this Parliament is up to date and devolved in what is actually

happening there. -- involved. He touched on the war crime issue and I

have to say, it is unlikely we can holders perpetrated to account.

Today tomorrow. We will hold them to account in the months and years to

come. We are keeping lists and understanding who are the military

leaders who are conducting these air attacks no matter what country they

are coming from and all of those participating in supporting the

Syrian regime must remember that their day in the International Court

will come. We are collecting evidence to make sure we can hold

them to account. With regards to you an access, which touches on an

important question of air drops. The UN themselves has literally tonnes,

ten of thousands of material, Kit, that they want to get into these

areas and they have been denied asylum by the regime -- Syrian

regime. We cannot use their roads or airspace that the permission to do

so we will end up with the same situation that happened on the 19th

of September when a UN led convoy moved into Aleppo and was actually

destroyed from the air by Russian aeroplanes. Thank you very much for

granting this urgent question from my honourable friend, the member for

rural south. As she has made very clear, there is no situation worse

in the world right now than the Unitarian crisis in eastern Aleppo.

The amount of civilian casualties, no food supply. -- humanitarian.

Lots of people already facing starvation. We have reached the

point of last resort. The Government has previously made clear what that

should mean. The former Secretary of State said, in June this year, this

quote, while airdrops are complex and risky, they are the mass resort

to relieving human suffering across many diseased areas. -- alas resort.

Nobody is underestimating the risk involved but, with no alternatives,

thousands facing death without immediate supplies of food and

medical equipment, these are risks we must be prepared to take. Can I

ask the Minister once more, will he take the urgent steps required to

day to agree a plan for air drops by British planes with EU an and our

international partners as has been called for by the White helmets,

whose representatives I met last week? It was asked at the weekend,

what was planned in the Russia -- if Russia and Assad continued to block

roads? He said plan B was people starving. Can we allow that to

happen? We cannot. He is quite right, Mr Speaker and I have that

the Minister will agree. Mr Speaker, firstly, I should say that Britain

was a humanitarian effort should be praised by everyone in this house.

?2.3 billion, the second largest owner. ?23 million of that is going

direct to you in organisations geared to making sure that aid gets

to the most urgent places required. We are now debating the tactics as

to how to get that equipment into place and she is now navigating the

British aeroplanes, they delete paragraph or otherwise, get into

Syrian air space and make those drops. They will be shot down. My

honourable friend for the Armed Forces, I'm not sure that the UN is

requesting air drops at the moment. I'm not saying they will be rolled

out. I'm not saying you should be doing them. -- ruled alt. They are

not being dismissed. I simply share with the added that it is hugely

complicated and having been involved in airdrops on many occasions, many

when the drop zone is particularly small, the jet landed the small

place and is the very people who don't want to receive it. It is

important that the scale that I touched on before of the agent that

needs to get in means that the number of sources that would be

needs to be conducted is enormous. You can get your exact location with

transport trucks if they are given the conditions. If we are to conduct

air strikes, and I'm sorry to labour the point, but it requires seaweed

and support. If we can get Syrian support, it is better we get Syrian

support to our La Liga to go through so they go to the people are

requiring them. -- so they go through. I think my honourable

friend men airdrops rather than air strikes but we can be very proud as

to what the do as a country. Especially in the camps and running

Syria. Today was the question is about those trapped in the mid-30s

situation in Aleppo. What this house is trying to convey to my honourable

friend is something around the most urgent issues in global politics

today. We think this is an opportunity for the British

Government to show leadership and to convene likely partners and

kick-start the peace process and peace talks. But to come to be

housed with concrete ideas about how we can alleviate the suffering of

those men, women and children in what remains of one of the great

cities of Syria. Mr Speaker, my honourable friend gives me a license

to pay tribute to the neighbouring countries of Syria for the work they

have done in taking on board literally millions of refugees. 11

on, Turkey and Jordan in particular. One of the reasons we have organised

the conference this year is make sure there are funds available. --

Jo Cox. So the country can make -- Lebanon. So they can make sure they

can return back to Syria one day and that the countries have their

resources. We speak about Britain wanting to do more here. I had it is

not misconstrued what I said earlier, I want to, I would like to

but we are at the will of Parliament is to actually do that and make sure

it happens. Honourable members opposite say... Yes, five

opportunities in the Syrian vote did the Leader of the Opposition have

and we ended up... Not having the opportunity to check Daesh before

that was created and full Assad to account. I absolutely welcome it. I

know passions are running highly and that is to be understood but it

might help the house to know that I do intend to call everyone. There is

many for any honourable member to speak from her seat. She will have

the opportunity to speak in due course on her feet. This mean Ahmed

Sheikh. -- Tasmina. A court of 1 million people have been trapped in

the East End in the summer. There are no functioning hospitals, no

more food. An independent and delivers have said that at least 219

civilians were killed. Finding a practical political solution to

ending this situation is complex and challenging what I say to the

Minister, no practical challenge should be too tough. No obstacle to

insurmountable to do the right thing by these people's suffering is

growing day by day and she could fail to be moved by the

seven-year-old who is live teeting from Aleppo asking for help while

bombs are falling. -- tweeting. What discussions have taken place with

Russia to the man that they sign up now to the agreement brokered by the

UN to provide aid. Can I add the Minister what practical assistance

has been offered by UK forces to deliver a? -- aid. As I say, we are

doing our best work through neutral places. As they start to act as a

unilateral operator in this very difficult and complex, multisided

environment, we are seeing and can be labelled as an antagonist in some

form by the Russians and by the Syrians as well. That is the

obligation that we have. If we alternatively do things do the 19

nations -- through the United Nations. That is how we will do it

and that is how we are pushing our effort and are funds to support the

work of the UN itself. She said and sorry to repeat this point and

summarise, it is by two pictures that I use as an example in this

house. The boy that has photographed at being bombed. He was alive and

thrown in the back of an ambulance, members may recall. There is another

stark image reminding us of the help of Syria. Alan Kennedy, the poor boy

who was washed up on the jaded beach. Is that the joy they are

leaving? I don't want that to be. I want us to do more. I hope we can

achieve that. I have organised error drops in the

benign environment, and that is the ideal situation because error drops

are low, they are not high. Aircraft carrying them out are very

vulnerable. If this House wants to carry out error drops in and

non-benign environment, expect our aircraft to be brought down. If that

is the risk this Parliament wishes to take, please in future vote for

it and everyone in this House should take responsibility for that vote

when an RAF aircraft containing seven or eight people are brought

into the ground and everyone is killed, because that is the

responsibility this House will have to bear. My right honourable friend

with the experience he brings to the house shows the challenges we face.

We need to work with the United Nations and get their advice on how

best to get the aid in. I do not rule out the use of the drops, but

it has to be that last resort when we are unable to get the trucks and

by getting permission on the ground. I think in truth all of us in the

house and the world feel ashamed at the fact that we are unable to bring

food and medical supplies to the 250,000 people trapped in Eastern

Aleppo, including 100,000 children. They are in harm's weighed today. I

understand the difficulties, including the point made by the

honourable gentleman a moment ago about error drops, but back in the

summer the then Foreign Secretary told the house that agreement had

been reached if necessary to use error drops and they simply say to

the Minister, if this is not the last resort given what we are seeing

reported daily, then what on earth is? Again I pay tribute to the right

honourable gentleman and the work he has done in this area. I listen very

carefully to what he has said. I spent some time talking about this

with the head of mission at the United Nations in New York to

discuss what we can actually do. Unless we have permission for

aircraft to enter that error space, not necessarily British aircraft but

any aircraft to enter that space, then the dangers likely to be faced

considerable. We need to weigh that up to make sure we are content for

those risks to be taken. I have immense sympathy for my honourable

friend and the people of Syria have had no better friend over the past

years than in this government in the Minister and I fully appreciate the

difficulty he is in. Whatever it is we may have asked the Prime

Minister, and I signed the letter as well, we need to remember that the

United Kingdom is not the perpetrator here, we are seeking to

do something good. Can I ask my honourable friend following on the

question from the gentleman opposite, it was in May that the

international Syria support group agreed, and that includes the United

States and Russia, that if by June one the UN had been denied

humanitarian access to any of the besieged areas then would call upon

the world food programme to meet Judy out our programme for error

bridges and error drops. If it was possible at that time in the

circumstances to get the agreements he is seeking for error drops, is it

not possible to redouble those efforts to receive the permission

that he needs and those that would be asking to drop the food would

also get the permission they need to proceed? The work of the

international Syrian support group has been difficult and tested at the

last meeting that took place at the UN General Assembly that I attended

with the Foreign Secretary. It was clear that Russia was starting to

split away with it intends to provide support in order to look for

a political settlement, which was what was the purpose in bringing the

group together itself. Again, we are left with the situation of gaining

the necessary permission for the aircraft to move forward. I will

certainly consider what he has said and if I can read back to him more

details. I have a lot of time for this Minister but you shouldn't

rewrite history about what happened in 2013. As one of the Labour MPs

who did support action against President Assad back then, point out

to him that he has two Foreign Office ministers on his own benches,

former Secretary of State on his own ventures. The Labour front Labour

backbenchers are all: for the government to bring something back

to this House on error drops, so why didn't he just do it? Firstly, why

didn't we just do it, because of the challenging issues that we face. We

don't have permission to send an aircraft. We saw what happened to

the Russian aircraft that wandered into Turkish airspace. We would need

to gain the permissions to make that happen. On the first part, I don't

wish to antagonise the house and trying to rewrite history. It is as

much as this government's fault for failing to win across all Parliament

Aryans. For me, that is the biggest mistake from our government that we

did not take with us Parliament itself. We collectively needed to

work together to make sure that all of us are up-to-date and outweighed

the executive can be empowered to do such things, whether it be no-fly

zones were dropping aids, but only with the will and support of

Parliament can we make that move forward. Has any estimate been made

of the willingness of refugees to return to Syria if the regime

prevails? Yes. My understanding is that the absolute majority wish to

return to Syria. This is the homeland, where they grew up and

where they want to return to. It is one of the reasons why, which is

debated regularly in the size, the amount of money that we spent on

taking on refugees in this country compared with the amount of money

that we pour into looking after refugees in the region. It is not

the same support that we can offer, but the same amount of money goes 20

times further per individual, that is why we in the summer to and

supporting Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey because they want to stay in

the region where the language is similar and they can return as

quickly as possible once the fighting stops. He knows that I

respect him and I know that he wants to do more but I have to say that

for a Minister of the ground to stand at the dispatch box and

effectively read from a Kremlin press release and saying that any

aid mission will be shot down is a poisonous and sickening counsel of

despair. He has said that he wants parliamentary backing for us to do

more, for unilateral or multilateral missions. I say to him he has got

that so why doesn't government get the courage of his conviction and

make sure that this can be another Kosovo, rather than another Rwanda?

Firstly, in Kosovo we had troops on the ground, it was a different

situation, we had control of the airspace. There is the possibility

that the British aircraft could be shot down. If I said anything near

it and I correct myself and use this opportunity to say that we are

putting British air personnel in harm's way. I hope that something he

will concur with, it is a consideration that honourable

friends such as the Minister for Armed Forces must take into

consideration when they provide a recommendation to the Foreign Office

as to whether this is practical or not. My honourable friend the

Minister's frustration is both palpable and entirely understandable

and it flows back to the August 2013 votes. Times have somewhat changed,

the Labour Party is of a different complexion and others have commented

this parliament since then. With my honourable friend think it's

sensible for the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence in ten Downing

St to perhaps go away and come back in ten or 14 days' time with a

proposal to put before this House so that this matter can be fully

debated, all of the concerns a honourable friend the Minister for

the Armed Forces may have and other people of military and other

experience have spoken about this afternoon can be considered and

debated so that we can come to a single answer to what is a hugely

complex problem? I concur with my right honourable friend, it is

important that we are able to move forward on this and be aware of the

consequences of us doing nothing. Sitting here with the briefings that

I receive and the responsibility that I have is the Minister for the

Middle East, I say I am very conscious of the comments and the

concerns and the anger that has been expressed here today. We have to

work with what is the art of the possible and the art of the legal.

The Foreign Office is looking at various options and I do hope that

we will be able to advance this, better understand ourselves and

better understand, better educate the British public so we took the

British public with us, which was a concern back in 2013, as well. We

were all haunted by Afghanistan and Iraq. Was this another issue that we

were going to get sucked into? Things are different now, so

absolutely we should move forward on that note. Since the critical final

phase of the assault on Aleppo started, with which foreign

governments has the Minister discuss the feasibility of error drops? As I

say, the discussion on error drops has been debated and discussed with

the Americans and that was raised at the International serious support

group and a it this morning with our UN head of mission, he himself was

discussing it with... As our representative in New York. My

predecessor, Stephen O'Brien, has been working hard to call out these

war crimes for what they are. Can the Minister reassure me that

British air assets, in particular I in the sky assets, are being used to

gather evidence that can then be available for the international

criminal war crimes tribunal to make sure that when these people are held

to account we have the evidence to prove that? My honourable friend

raises an important point. I won't go into detail as to how we are

collecting that evidence, that would be operationally unhelpful,

particularly with the Minister for the Armed Forces sitting next to me,

but that is exactly what doing. It may take some time. We are

identifying those responsible, those in leadership position to giving the

orders for the strikes to take place and for those siege to occur on

Aleppo and we will hold those people to account. If I made tribute to

Stephen O'Brien, a former colleague in this House, who is doing a

commendable job. The work that he is doing in turn highlighting the

plight, the humanitarian plight of what is going on, I think we can all

be very proud of the work is doing. I was distressed by the implication

in the Minister's remarks that those of us who voted against the strikes

in Syria were somehow responsible for his decision not to put forward

error drops 48. Frankly, at that point we were not convinced that the

balance of harm was being sorted in the right way. I think that if he

was to today call for a vote in this House that those people who like me

opposed military strikes on Syria would strongly be supporting any

action that can get humanitarian aid to those starving communities. What

is he going to do? And he is talking about it, what is he going to do to

get this aid to the people who are starving? All actions will be done,

or should be done through the United Nations. This is because they are

the conduit that can be deemed by the Syrian regime and by Russia as

being as neutral. Off we turn up ourselves and start doing these aid

drops I hope the honourable lady will understand how that changes the

dynamics of our involvement in the area, in difficult terrain. I not

ruling it just saying it is a more complicated scenario. The United

Nations does conduct that the drops, it has the capability, that facility

to do so. It only does occur it has the permission the Syrian regime.

That is the important part. On the latter part, I am sorry that this

government did not do more to win people like her cells across. That

was our failure as much as anybody else. That is if anything what we

need to learn out of what happened in August 2,000 13.

As one of the members who have visited the RAF and looking to the

C130 cruiser you would be acting to do this, I think we should be very

careful to avoid the "Something must be done" response to what is

absolutely understandably something that shames humanity and, in recent

years, with us on a par with Rwanda and other events that have shamed us

collectively in the west. Learning from this, is there not other

actions that can be taken, not only to hold Russia to account but to

look at what really hurts that legal regime? -- evil regime. People are

making business there, educating their children in this country from

connections to that regime. They need to understand that they cannot

bed with impunity and seek to enjoy the benefits that we all take

granted in this country. Again, I pay tribute to my honourable friend

with his military experience. The role of a C130 in conducting such an

airdrop with the extremely difficult indeed. We do not rule it out. It is

prone to a huge challenge. The Basques what more can be done. The

heart of this, is Russia. They are pivotal in being able to influence

exercised -- exercise influence over Assad and allowing humanitarian

access in. Unfortunately, they're been five resolutions that have been

vetoed, preventing even the most basic humanitarian access from

getting through. Canadians are now looking at an assembly vote which

would require half of those if it is not an assembly session. Again,

tricky with Russia using their influence. We are collectively

looking to see if the UN machine isn't working at this dire

situation, and we are relying on it -- reminded of Rwanda, then what can

we do. Can I just say that Kosovo didn't have a resolution and many of

article on William Hague in 2011-2012 to support now flies ends,

similar to what John Major had done to project the Kurds in Iraq. We

have allowed people to do this by failing to act not in 2013, but in

2011 and 2012 when Assad started this. We need to act, even without a

security Council resolution, in order to save hundreds of thousands

of lives. Following Rwanda, Mr Speaker, there was a issue where a

reader choosing to kill their own people is initiated for you not

being able to stand by. With phrases such as genocide that game at

justify the inability of hesitance to step forward. He is suggesting

something which is to bypass the legally actions on how we actually

move forward. In Kosovo, they're there to on the ground and we had

support in the region and local support as well. In Kurdistan, the

RSA UN resolution which backed that as well. -- there was a. When do we

get into the situation and do the right thing, but do not have

international legal cover because it has been prevented by a P5 vendor

who has vetoed at every opportunity? I'm sure the Minister, for the

reasons given, is right to rule our unilateral action but what does he

mean by his attacks on the Labour front bench and people like me,

refusing to support military action in Syria? What could possibly be

achieved by more bombs falling on this country? Surely our priority

should BBC. We have do condemn violence wherever it comes from. The

terrible violence inflicted by the Assad regime but also unusual in

Western Aleppo which was not reported widely. I had the Minister

will condemn that. If our priority is these and condemning violence, we

have to accept that whether we like it or not the appalling Assad and

his Russian backers will stay so we had to drop the demand that they get

out and engage with everybody, that is Assad, the Russians, the Sunni

rebels to get these because that is what everyone wants. I think my

honourable friend is a very familiar that the conflict make of the

country that today is Syria. With all its history. It is likely that

they will be a federated model once we move forward from this

recognising the differences in groupings in the country but today,

the do vaguely situation where Russia is batting all its money in

the region. It has a connection. -- regime. This goes back many years

and it has to be honoured and reflexes. I say to all of the

Russians, have a relationship with the people of Syria, not with the

Syrian regime. Have a conversation with the leader, the coordinator of

the free Syrian opposition. Move forward from there so that Russia

can continue having an influence, if you like, in a place but not

attacking its self to the tyrant that is president Assad. Next week,

could be Minister need to discuss the future of Syria with one that

act beach? I do make an opportunity if I can to meet with any people who

are in the area, any representatives. Anywhere that every

opposition is as well to engage and I'd be delighted with we got in this

and discuss it further. Mr Speaker, I also signed the letter for airdrop

spot as a former RAF serviceman, can I say how much I appreciate not only

be Minister's concern but my honourable friend from Beckenham as

well. I appreciate that. Can the Minister tell us whether he is aware

that the Prime Minister having the opportunity to raise the Minister of

air drops with the general secretary of Nato when he at ten damage the

last year? Firstly, can I pay tribute to my honourable friend and

I think was involved in the air campaign in Kurdistan and he brings

a huge amount of expertise to the chamber. I'm afraid I am not aware

of the details. I know the subject of Syria came up and maybe if I

could write to him with more details of the conversation? In the letter,

the honourable member for rural south who I may congratulate for

this issue -- Wirral, she said that we now have to go to love because

they have nothing to lose. The situation has got worse, so I don't

know what has happened to Dean 's easy as back in May and my

constituents and others in this as a whole by what they have seen back in

the news. -- the situation. Why is the enthusiasm for air drops as

there was with the morning. -- when bombing. That is not a good

comparison to make because they will be how can they be made clear. We

are looking at what he can do deserve support the concept of an

drops itself. That with all the dangers and Gary that have also been

expressed as well. I make it clear that we take the lead from the

United Nations on the ground. If we are to do this in a neutral manner,

it has to be done three U N. Every step in, we take on a very different

perspective of our involvement in the Syriac campaign from which we

would need the permission and bought this house. -- Syrian. Can I share

my concern with the honourable member from Newbury about an drops

in this house coming with huge risks? If they are to be done

unilaterally, would my honourable friend who is in a difficult

situation agree with me that we not only need five to cover of, but the

Accra to deliver, helicopters and special forces to pick up the down

crews if they were down and wounded and we do risk the awful prospect of

seeing our own service personnel being dragged through the streets of

guilt in some horrific manner by people down there behaving like

barbarians. We agree with the concern? -- would he agree? Thank

you. My honourable friend does bring forward a lot of reasonable

concerns. There is a lot of air cover needed, an agency operations

in case pilots have to bail out, rescue missions that had to take

place and you would also be left with the rather stark challenge of

hostages being taken. These need to be taken to consideration from an

operational concern as to how we get the age to where they wanted to go.

The UN to conduct an drops themselves but only where they have

the clear permission by the regime. And Putin's modus operandi is the

excessive use of force. We have seen it many times. We saw it not believe

in the Crimea and Georgia. The situation in Syria, that robust

facing up to Putin is now fracturing. How were the governor

and make sure that we maintain a steady, robust cause? He's dealt

out... My honourable friend who has got huge experience and knowledge of

Russia spelt out the challenge that we face in actually getting the

Russians to come to the table, recognising the web originating

provided but that there is not a threat, in my view, for Russia's

continued influence he touches on events but look at the Balkans,

Baltics. The Iron Curtain. The issue Russia had was enormous. --

influence. Every tiny country's swing to the west, Russia loses that

their influence. At the heart of this, they don't want to lose a

maritime, Mediterranean influence that is so critical to them. Thank

you. I'm sure the Minister although I agree that they seemed in however

were targeted and that starvation is being used as a weapon of war bring

up Derby reads from particularly the 1930s. International law was

supposed to stop this. What lessons can be learned from these situations

and can be taken into this one? I think something we are looking at

very carefully is, where is international left after this

experience in Aleppo and Syria? When you get to the point that the UN in

New York is unable as an international body which build

alliances, designed to solve bring together states, 192 of them, in

order to solve the world's problems cannot because of a single permanent

member who can veto everything. That is a huge question for us to answer

and a question that we need to say, how do we circumnavigate that?

Aleppo's hospitals are out of action meaning medic Saskia amputate limbs

of children without anaesthetic. -- medics have two. He knows there is a

safer way to do so but he knows the latest humanitarian convoy has been

bombed in September. He knows there will be no political solution while

Assad and Putin think they can win the other hand through military

activity. The residents of a letter to deny want to die. It is in our

power to help them. -- the residents of Aleppo do not want to die. When

do we help them? The honourable lady I think now these issues well and

she raises the 19th of September convoy and I have taken some notes

from that. This was approved by the Syrian Foreign Ministry. It was

trucks loaded by the red Crescent, enough equipment for 78,000 people

and it came to a checkpoint, the UN were told to leave the vehicles and

Aleppo residents were told to jump in the regionals. There are Russian

and following this all the way until it got to Aleppo territory and then

the aeroplane came in and bombed every single truck. -- drones. That

was with permission and with approval. They know what they are

doing and this is the regime we are looking in which makes asked... The

challenge of looking at those people so difficult indeed.

On a way forward in Syria, are key ally, the United States, its

President-elect has said that Syria is an influence of Russia. If that

you remains, will we charter rule foreign policy position on Syria and

the region? If I may, if I can pay tribute to the work of John Kerry in

trying to bring the various stakeholders together. He has worked

tirelessly in order to make this happen and I am sorry we have not

had greater progress with the Syrian support group. We wait to see what

the new administration's strategy and approaches to this. I would

simply say that we need to work very closely with our international

partners, not least America to make sure that we can exert greater

influence on Russia. The honourable member has alluded to the words of a

seven-year-old he said on Twitter last Sunday that her home in a level

had been bombed. She was sent there were under heavy bombardment and in

between life and death, please keep praying for us. There is no fool

even chilling hospitals left on Aleppo and food ran out in early

November. What recent discussions has he had with the Foreign to with

other nations of goodwill about humanitarian relief? Our prayers are

not enough, surely it is time to act and if you do that you would have

large swathes of the size behind you. I don't know if he is

speaking... The Prime Minister raised the issue of Syria at the

last European Council. Our ambassador in New York is also

engaged on this. Britain wants to make sure that we can keep the

pressure up on trying to effect an avenue to get the aid in. If that

isn't forthcoming, we need to look at other options. People in

Kettering horrified by the news that 250,000 people in Aleppo have no

access to hospital care and are facing imminent famine and will be

conscious that that is a population equivalent to two and a half times

the number in the borough of capturing itself. To get the sense

of the scale of the humanitarian effort required, could the Minister

tell the house high many Hercules aircraft or high many trucks going

in on the ground would be required to supply the requisite needs of the

population of 250,000? It is probably more a question for my

counterpart to give you the details of that. It is an interesting

comparison that needs to be made. I can say that the number of trucks

that were anticipated to go through are dozens daily in order to keep

the people of Aleppo alive unsupported. I have a great deal of

respect for the Minister but I am disappointed that today was not a

statement from the government. Doesn't the Minister believe that it

would strengthen the hand of the government on the world stage in

terms of the go see a thing around the drops to have the will of this

Parliament expresses few through a motion brought but the government?

If we are to move forward on this then we need to work together. We

need to take the British nation with us, we need to work as a parliament

as well. I hear what she says. We need to make sure that we debate

these matters on a more regular basis or people are prepared to

recognise the dangers that we may be putting our service personnel in,

but also the options that are available for us to lean forward on

this and get the result that we want. The Minister has been very

candid about his reflections on the vote taken in this House back in

August 2013, but what direct impact is that Parliamentary vote having on

policy thinking now, given that if one of our plane to shut out of the

sky you have to retaliate? Without revisiting the question too much, I

do believe that collectively our inability to secure that vote before

Russia had moved into this sphere, before Daesh was a word that we even

knew what it meant, that was our opportunity to hold President Assad

to account. For different reasons we blinked. Government needs to learn

what more we can do collectively to work together to make sure that we

don't repeat that mistake again. In his initial answer to the urgent

question he rightly labelled the bombing of hospitals and other acts

as war crimes by the Syrian government forces and Russia. At

that amount can he explain further what specific measures the UK

Government can take to bring those responsible account? As I say, we

put forward, or a motion was put forward with British support that

not leaving honoured by the UN Security Council to slide this

across to the International Criminal Court. It was, guess what, vetoed by

Russia. We are collecting evidence to make sure that in due course, and

it may take some time as I mentioned earlier, told those who are

perpetrating the damage, causing the atrocities, to hold them to account

in the longer term. The Minister has set out in some detail the

difficulties that he had his colleagues face in dealing with this

very difficult situation and I appreciate that. He did however say

that the government were considering a number of options. Given that we

have 100,000 children on the point of starting and 250,000 people in

total in during the conditions in Aleppo, will he undertake to come

back to the house with a statement next week about the options that the

government are considering and setting out what the government

proposes to do, because this situation is incredibly urgent? What

they will say is I agree with what she says and I would say that it is

important that we keep the house updated. I will endeavour to do that

on a regular basis, either myself or the Foreign Secretary or the Defence

Secretary as well. I agree with her. I thank the Minister for his

statement and according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

at least 225 civilians have been killed, which includes 27 children

since the latest assault started on the 15th of November. The government

must do all that possibly can to assist those in Syria now, but they

must also do more on helping those who have managed to flee the

complex. Will the Minister please commit to pushing his Cabinet

colleagues into accepting more refugees from this war-torn country?

I touched on this earlier. There is a choice between whether we look

after refugees in this country, and we have thousands coming this way,

or we provide support in the region themselves. For the prize will

capture one refugee in the UK, it to looking around 20 in the region

itself. Different standards, absolutely. But they hoped she

recognises that we have leaned into this with ?2.2 billion worth of

support, doing our part in the region itself. I pay tribute to all

of our Armed Forces in service around the world and I know that no

one in this House would ever put them in harms way unless there was

no alternative, so I asked the Minister what other alternatives is

he looking at in terms of truant or unmanned aircraft to do these kind

of the drops? I would also say to him that I could think of few were

other clear-cut humanitarian crisis like this in my lifetime that would

deserve an intervention by British service people to protect the

children. We want to use our influence with our allies and others

to work across not just the military aspect in making sure that if our

military word used to provide the necessary humanitarian relief, but

also work on the diplomatic corridors to get a political

solution as well. It is not just one area we are looking at, we are

trying to work across the piece. There is huge public support for

skilled up humanitarian intervention. What contingency plans

are in place so if permission comes for a drops they can become

immediately? I won't be able to cancer that. It is an operational

decision as to hire any form of the drops might be conducted and must

form part of a wider package of humanitarian support for those

people requiring it. It is extremely public if it so I hope I am not able

to give a direct answer. I voted against the air strikes in 2013 and

I also agree with the Minister about the need to deliver aid on the

ground, not least because some of the that is needed is medical care,

physical and mental, which can only be delivered in person. However, I

have signed the letter that has been published this morning because the

people of Aleppo are suffering in the most acute circumstances and it

is no longer acceptable for me when my constituents to stand by. Can I

call on the Minister and his colleagues to bring forward Atherley

workplan at the earliest opportunity to the site explaining believe the

risks so that honourable members can take a decision on fully informed

basis. Our constituents want us to alleviate the suffering in Aleppo at

the earliest possible opportunity. When we had a meeting co-hosted by

John Kerry and the Foreign Secretary only a couple of weeks ago, John

Kerry give oppressed in saying that he felt there was no appetite to do

more in a general capacity in dealing with the situation in

Aleppo. That was his observations having spoken to not just visiting

this country but speaking to leaders across Europe. It is important that

the debate we are having here is also being held in other capital

cities as well because the collective effort is what we need to

effect change in what is going on in the country of Syria. Everybody is

focusing on Russia, but you also mentioned the Iranian influence.

What is the UK Government doing to stop Iran's influence on this

humanitarian disaster? Prior... There is a coincidence and attempts

-- in a sense... There is a much greater dialogue with Iran to be

able to discuss these issues. I spoke to the Iranian ambassador on

Friday, covering a wide variety of issues. It is important that Iran is

aware that other one to take on a more responsible role in the

international community it has proxy relationships or interests in the

region itself, then it must advance the way it does business and this is

a great example. Iran could show the leadership that we are missing at

the moment from Russia. What conversations has the UK Government

had with the US President-elect? What consequences does he believe it

holds for British policy going forward if we have to act ordered

unilateral terms given the US President-elect's current policy? We

are looking forward to the confirmation of the President

elect's nomination for Secretary of State. When that is me and I am sure

that we will be engaging to ensure or encourage America to be as

involved and as committed to not just this issue in Syria but other

challenges that we face in the Middle East. The Minister has

mentioned the difficulties in dealing with Russia. He has not

answered the question that my honourable friend Post earlier on,

taken place with Russia to demand taken place with Russia to demand

that they sign up to the agreement brokered by the UN to provide hate

and what more can be done to get the talks back on track? This is raised

on a regular basis. It was raised by the Foreign Secretary with Sergei

Lavrov only last week. It is pivotal that Russia can play this role in

turning the situation around and allowing humanitarian aid and a line

pass as a nation of hostilities, at least a 10-day ceasefire, underlying

political discussions to recommence. Point of order. On a point of order,

you may be aware that over the weekend it was revealed that

thousands of families with disabled children, including inmate on

constituency, have lost out up to ?4400 a year in tax credits after an

administrative error. This is as a result of the DWP failing to inform

HMRC about family's eligibility for the awards and has resulted in an

estimated 20,000 families were children who have qualified for DLA

missing out on an additional tax credit premium of between ?60 and

?84 a week. In the Autumn Statement, the government set aside ?360

million over six years to ensure these families who are eligible for

a child disability tax credits to be awarded this money, however the

payments will be backdated only until April 2016 meaning individual

families may have lost out on the entitlement totalling up to ?25,000

over the past five years. Can I ask if you have had any indication from

the Work and Pensions Secretary or any other minister that they will

come to this House and make a statement which can clarify the

impact on our constituents and, if not, could you give us any other

guidance on how we might raise this issue in the size and scrutinise

ministers on it at the earliest opportunity?

I'm very grateful for her courtesy in offering me the advantages of it

but the short answer to the enquiry toward the end the point of order as

to whether I have received any indication of a likely ministerial

statement on the matter is now. However more widely the lady has

sought my advice and I'm very happy to try to oblige. There is, I

believe, a range of options open to her. The moral, of course, we have a

Treasury oral questions if honourable members wish to raise

these matters with the minister responsible for the H M R C. There

will be a lot of colleagues looking to do precisely that. Including no

less all got a figure than the honourable lady herself. It is

English and to the next work and pensions questions that it is

regrettable but a fact that there will be opportunities to seek

debates in Westminster Hall on this matter or alternatively end of day

adjournment debates in the chamber in December. A matter in which, as

the honourable lady knows, I take 18 and ongoing interest. Alternatively

do that, the honourable lady may wish to gather support for a bid to

the back bench and business committee with who's Jesse will be

well for nausea. I have no doubt that the honourable lady -- chair.

Will take the 11 if not more than one of these options with the

vigour. I hope this applies not just to the honourable lady but two other

members who feel very strongly about this matter. If there are no further

point of order, we now on to the programme motion, the minister to

move. Move formerly. Thank you. The question is the Digital economy Bill

programme number three notion. As on the order paper. As many as are of

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes

have it. The ayes have it. We will now read the orders of the day.

Economy Bill as amended to be considered. Thank you. Order. We

begin with Government clause 28 with which it will be convenient to

consider the other due causes and amendments grouped together on the

selection paper. Two movie, I call the Minister. Prime Minister

Hancock. Very much. -- Minister Matt Hancock. I wanted to keep people

safe online. The amendment in this third route proposed to strengthen

the enforcement of protection for children to improve access to online

media and address consumer protection in telecoms. I'm going to

take these three groups in turn, if I may. Subgroups of your excellent

groups. Turning first to child protection. I and alighted at the

cross-party support to deliver the Conservative manifesto commitment

about age verification to access online pornography. It has been the

lead so powerfully by my honourable friend for devices ably supported by

my honourable friend from North West Hampshire that the enforcement

proposed in the bill was not strong enough and my honourable friend is

right. We have listened to the case that she and others have booed. They

have advanced the argument that there will be some companies,

especially based overseas, we simply do not apply in the law enacted in

this house. It is clear that there is a case to direct a UK service

provider to prevent access. We all want the Internet to be free but

freedom operates within a framework of social responsibility, of norms

and the wall. -- law. This will protect the freedom of adults to

watch pornography online but protect children from the same safeguards

online as they have off-line. -- with the same safeguards. I hope

they will take a responsible position and the regulator will only

have to use this sparingly as the bass majority of companies will want

to obey the law. -- the majority. The regulator is expected to be BBFC

to make this new system work as the look to take these proposals through

the other place. We have been persuaded of another argument made

powerfully, at second reading. The provisions be discussed today will

see children protected by one of the most robust and sophisticated

regimes blithely but, as my honourable friend for Paul Watson

has said, and I see her place, supported by my honourable friend

for St Ives, these protections have resulted in a disparity between

UK-based OnDemand services and indices they OnDemand services and

commercial providers of pornography on the other. We have concluded that

we do not want these, clause 29 ensures children are protected by

pornographic content wherever it is derived. I believe we will have a

stronger system as a result. I turned to new clause three which

proposes a legal requirement to undertake an online safety impact

assessment. I understand the intent of this new clause but I think it is

unnecessary because leading social media companies already report on

their online safety practices of the ICT coalition. We work very closely

with them to ensure that they take down content that is violent or

incite violence, and to fight terrorist related content. The

system is very important and is working well. Since 2010, we have

secured involuntary removal of over 220,000 pieces of content and a

requirement for a safety assessment is likely to be difficult to apply

in practice because of the extraterritorial organisations that

are involved in this space and it would be almost impossible to target

individual from the small, online website for commercial purposes. Of

course. I'm very grateful to the Minister for giving way and I am

very grateful that he had agreed to an end rebuilt in this important

area. I just wonder when he is addressing this issue have a

responsibility of social media sites, what action he is thinking of

taking to prevent what happened recently when Facebook refused to

give to the police information that they had relating to a missing

child. Well, God, making sure the premise that operates in that sort

of space as the terrorist material and child rejection online -- of

course. It's incredibly important to get right. That protection. The

non-statutory system that we have in place, essentially non-statutory.

That is to fit defenders both off-line and online, that works

well. Collaboration with the police and others of the social media

organisations is incredibly important and I would urge them to

collaborate with the police whenever they are asked to do so. We have

taken the view that effective and rigorous enforcement of rules around

age verification is an important step to get the system up and

running but for a system that is working well, with 220,000

take-downs since 2010, we want to leave that in place because it is,

on the whole, working effectively. In a lot of these instances, there

are individual cases that are difficult but, overall, that system

is working well and that is why you're the different approaches to

the different areas. If I now turn to new clause ten. This makes some

certificate requirements about online education. I maintain that

this is not necessary as safety is already covered in the new computer

and regular introduced in December 2014 from primary school, children

are taught how to use technology safely, respectfully and

responsibly. How to keep personal information private, how to

recognise exceptional and unacceptable in Bolivia --

acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. We can protect children

online through both direct rules for the Internet and education but this

new clause is not necessary and I wonder that, by putting a static

system in place, it would risk making the task at hand harder. When

it comes to that border protection, we expect social media and

interactive services to our robust services in place quickly to address

inappropriate content and abusive behaviour in their sights. A

statutory code of practice, as proposed a new clause 13 is

difficult to work because there is not a one size fits all solution for

dealing with content and varies. It can vary by platform and buy

innovation as the Internet operates. Legislation in this area is hard

because of the pace of change. Users will benefit most companies develop

their own business approach for reporting tool and in-house

processes. Existing arrangements and the action being taken by social

media companies is the best approach to tackling this problem. Of course.

Thank you to the Minister for giving way. Judy tell us which companies

and which sectors do already have a code of practice in place and how he

is monitoring how those codes of practice are being brought up to

date? We are working with parents of practice in a series of different

areas. She will have seen recently -- codes. Twitter has brought

forward a work towards an online code of practice in online use.

There is more to do anything, I think, but it is better to have

codes of practice that associations by India batting change with the

times as usage of social media changes. By goodness, we all know

how social media changes over time and not always in a good way. We

have to make sure we keep pace with that and I worry that reading

something more static into legislation will get in the way of

those efforts. I... I agree with my right honourable friend is that it

is incumbent on social media companies to play their part in

establishing and rigorous three in forcing norms and social rules where

we do not take a legislative view or not yet anyway. -- rigorously. Of

course. I understand buying in from social media battle providers. I

understand that. Getting out a position where, in response to the

query from his honourable friend, it appears, and I may have

misunderstood, that there is no code of practice going on at the moment.

Things are being developed. I misunderstood because I thought he

said codes of practice are working well and in place. Regarding the

change of circumstances, he is right but under new clause 13, some fall.

It says that the code of practice may be revived. That is the

flexibility he prays in aid of. It is in the new cause. Can I just

declare? When I said there were codes of practice, I was talking

about the take-down of terrorist material and child abuse. Online.

There are clear code of practice that have been in place for a number

of years. In terms of social views online, that is where we are looking

with the companies in order to make further rest in this area. Yes, of

course. Can I thank him for giving way, he has been very generous. The

computer curriculum which, I assume, serves only to England -- refers.

Can I have what he has known in relation to that? Of course, the

Government have had significant discussions over time with the

devolved nations on these questions. Of course, they treat the question

differently. There is a difference of them in Scotland and Wales, and

of course in Northern Ireland. It is a matter for them. He is quite right

that the concluding curriculum response was a matter for England

whereas most of the rest of the bill is a UK matter, so I am very happy

to clear that up. The public Belgium 80, previously considered new clause

32, every move onto that. That was fully regulated to approve age

verification providers and publish a code of practice with which these

providers must comply. As I said in Trinity, I then think this cause is

necessary because clause 15 requires guidance to be published in gems of

the type of arrangement it will say are intertwined with the bill. This

includes characteristics of age verification, control that will be

considered acceptable and a number of different proposals for technical

food and is for the age verification and controls have been brought

forward Julie and made, I have been made aware of them during the

passage of this bill. The clause 15 already takes into account the need

for guidance in that area. Age verification of this sort is

inevitably going to require a lot of information holding by the companies

concerned. What assurances can give the house that that data will not be

liable to be hacked, like it was in the Ashley Madison case? This is

incredibly important. We will come onto some of the data protection

clauses later in the bill, but all of this operates within the Data

Protection Act, which as strong and strengthening safeguards. The

government has said that we will opt into the forthcoming directive,

which has stronger enforcement measures than the current Data

Protection Act. All of the data measures in the sacked and all of

the consequences of the age verification process will be within

the Data Protection Act, which has a broad consensus of support behind it

and has operated very successfully over a number of years. That means

that the companies are responsible for the security of its data. Will

it be the case that the data will be held in a way that is anonymous,

that will not allow the people who have given the data to be identified

should be stolen? The best security in the world can still be breached.

It will be held in such a way that it is required to be secure and the

data not made available. That is a common principle across a huge

swathe of our life, that data must be held in a safe way. The Data

Protection Act is already in place in order to ensure that that's

happens. Coming back to new clause 32, requiring the regulator to

approve providers is likely to be unnecessarily restrictive. But of

course I understand the need to make sure that the age of the location

process is of high quality. These measures are part of a broader

effort to protect children online. For instance, parental control

filters are a very important tool in protecting children from harmful

online material and have been introduced by industry after the

efforts of my honourable friend in the last parliament. In committee we

discussed the concerns that the EU net neutrality regulations would

range of these controls, which have worked well, illegal. I am clear

that our interpretation of the EU net neutrality is that filters can

be allowed when they can be turned off as fair by then a matter of

future choice. I am happy to confirm to the highest for the avoidance of

doubt we will bring forward an amendment in the other place to the

effect that providers may offer these filters to put this issue

beyond doubt. Turning to amendments 27 to 34. The introduction of the

new law requiring appropriate age verification measures for online

pornography is a bold step and that has many challenges. It represents

the first age of ensuring commercial providers of pornographic material

are held responsible for what they provide profit from. The Internet

brings incredible and unlimited opportunities it also has the

potential to change the way younger generations grow to understand and

experience healthy relationships. Delivering on this manifesto

commitment to stop children and young people having access to online

pornographic sites remains a priority. We want to get this right

and the provisions in this built in a bolus to do that. Measures will

protect children from exposure to material that is clearly

inappropriate for them and would be harmful for the development.

Pornography is not the only online content that may be harmful for

children. The inclusion of other adult material within the scope of

the bill as proposed by Amendment 27 minute bid the most effective way of

addressing these issues. Most importantly, we need to be careful

in taking a proportionate approach to ensure the success of the

proposed measures. I can assure my right honourable friend that we will

continue to work to make sure that we are taking all of the necessary

action on all fronts where children are at risk from harm and I look

forward to continuing the discussions with her and others, but

our approach I believe represents a targeted and effective way of

protecting children from stumbling across pornographic material that is

most readily material and potentially harmful and fulfils our

manifesto commitment. He will be aware that one of the means by which

young people are now accessing pornography more and more is through

social media and sites like Twitter. Can he say how his age verification

requirements will apply to twitter? The age verification requirements

apply to the commercial provision of mammography. Pornography is not only

paid for, but is also provided for a commercial return. There is a

difference between websites that provide commercial pornography and

platforms on which others can upload images. Getting this right one that

second group is much harder than around the first Group. What we have

decided to do under proposing to do is to put forward this bill to deal

with the large swathe of the problem and get this working properly, and

to deal with this, the mainstay of the problem, and then see how it is

working. I appreciate that for those who really want to access pawn

online, then if the are really intent on doing that, then there is

a big challenge and stopping them. All of the evidence suggests that

children's first interaction of them is by accident and it is by trying

to prevent as much of that inadvertent viewing and the viewing

for those who are not desperately actively seeking that we are

legislating. I appreciate that this is not a utopia, but it is a very

important step and he I hope you will accept that. Isn't it fair to

say that four years ago providers like twitter talk us that it was

impossible to take time visual images of children being sexually

abused, but now he says quite rightly there is a code of practice

in place, surely where there is a will there is a way and he has

proved that he can make significant progress. Should he not be putting

more pressure on organisations like twitter? The short answer is yes.

This bill certainly does that. I think we can only do that... That we

can best do that by delivering on the proposals here and then working

with the platforms where it is essentially platform based

pornography because that is a much more difficult technical nut to

crack. He has spent more time in the last few weeks thinking about

children and pornography than amateur he would want to. This bill

deals with the publication of pornography. One of the things that

we need to do is help children be more resilient and understand that

these images are not normal sexual behaviour, they are of the kind of

violence that should not be part of relationships, yet when we look at

the research we learned that children, particularly boys, think

that this is normal. What discussions has he had with the

Department for Education to try to build greater resilience amongst

children to some of the images that despite the efforts in this bill,

that they will see. I agree with every word of her intervention. Yes,

working with the Department for Education is incredibly important in

building resilience and actively ensuring that people's health

through relationships is taught effectively. The Secretary of State

and I have both been in discussion with the Department for Education on

that point. She makes an important point on the broader circumstances

here that need to be taken into consideration, as well as the

clarity through legislation that I hope she welcomes in this amendment.

I will move on to mobile phone contract, which seems a bit of a

shift. In new clause seven it seeks to place a mandatory obligation on

mobile phone service providers to agree with the customer at the time

of entering into the contract at financial on the monthly bill. Since

this amendment was first to building committee we have had further

contact with mobile network operators, and they already offer

consumers wait to manage their usage. Apps that allowed them to

turn on and financial caps, messages that are lured people when they are

getting close to the, and an online tools that show how much data is

needed to carry out basic online facilities. Legislation is not

currently necessary, although movement in this direction is.

Turning to new clause 14, I understand the frustrations of

people who use mobile experience does not live up to their

expectations, but while roaming appears to offer quick fix, it risks

doing more harm than good because it undermines the incentive for the

suppliers to invest in new infrastructure. This is particularly

damaging in areas that have no coverage at all. Roman was

considered by the government in 2014 and was rejected for these reasons

in favour of licence conditions to drive increased coverage by all

mobile operators. This agreement locked in ?5 billion of investment

to deliver improved coverage across the UK. We now have 4G coverage of

97.8 UK premises and I can confirm that this is happening because in my

own constituency Paymaster has just been turned on last weekend and

coverage on the road to Newmarket from my house is better than it has

ever been, so I have seen for myself. The house will also have

seen recent announcements from mobile providers that they are

currently expanding coverage to meet these 90% of land mass requirements,

that they must meet now by the legal contract and the license agreements.

This bill strengthens the fines if they miss those license agreements.

Of course we want further improvements. Last week, new

planning laws came into force that allowed tall masts and we are

informing the electronic code in this bill to allow operators to

extend the neck what's making mast sharing easier and cheaper. These

reforms have been quite vocal about the industry and off, will hold them

to account for the delivery of wider geographic coverage. New clause is

20 and 25 seats to place mandatory obligations on mobile phone service

providers to allow and end-user determine at -- to allow the

end-user to terminate the contract if they can't get coverage. The

automatic compensation measure in clause three strengthens of compost

by powers to require automatic compensation when there is a

complete failure to provide a contract of service. The idea of not

being able to break your contract if you're mobile phone signal is not

good enough at home I think is already dealt with in the fact that

contracts purchased at distance can be cancelled under a statutory 14

day cooling off period and in the shop purchases often a check of your

coverage cooling off period for two weeks after sign up. Some also offer

extended periods to ensure that service meets the needs of the

option of conservation without I wonder wonder if my right

honourable friend would accept that this must be the only product around

that you can buy that you could end up not being able to use. People

don't just moved house in the first 14 days of contract. Will he look

again at this? The primary way that I want to tackle this problem is by

getting universal mobile phone coverage of UK properties. We are on

track to get to 98% and back compares to the universal service

for broadcasting requires 98.5%, so we are getting to the point where we

have near universal service, but that is not necessarily good enough

and what I would propose is with the forthcoming Green Paper on consumers

and markets to work with my right honourable friend to make sure that

in the Green Paper we address the issues of concern and make sure that

consumers get a good deal from the mobile phone contracts and that the

mobile phone contracts will work. I hear all statistic, what coverage

is meant to be here, there and everywhere but they never seem to

match the reality on the ground or in the living room, or any shop.

Nearly the whole of the town I live in, three Main St, you can get

absolutely no mobile coverage from any of the companies. It does not

matter whether one of them is not providing a good enough service, it

is any of them. No doubt he will share with DVD frustration that when

mobile phone -- the deep frustration that when 3G licenses game, there

was no geographic requirements. That is a serious mistake for this

country. We have since engineered into the license agreement mobile

phone geography coverage of 90%. The geography that is being covered is

rising rapidly at the moment. For instance, with one provider, it was

50% last year and is 75% this year. They have to get to 90%. It is

increasing. It is a pity that, from the 3G license in the early 2000 or

lack up until 2014, there is no requirement. -- 2000s. Author, has

now said that they are in discussions about getting to a

universal 100% coverage in the next licence period. -- Ofcom. I think

the minister was trying to make a point there but all I'm trying to

say is even with the changes of the elder chronic remediation to that

are in this bill, I don't think we will be able to achieve that 98 100%

because it is still too easy for an individual land holder to make it

difficult for significant improvements to the infrastructure

in that area actually, surely we should be seeing as much access to

mobile telephony now as water. I'm not making a partisan point at all

and acted during Ed balls on on Saturday night, I feel as an

partisan as I ever have. -- un Partisan. I extend my condolences. I

am speaking about coverage of mobile phones in the UK. My coverage is

more rural than his if I may say is a real problem in constituencies up

and down the country. I look forward to my campaigning visit to the short

the marginal seat of Rhondda. Thank you very much. Yes. Grateful to my

honourable friend. I, too, was pleased to hear Ofcom say they are

looking at a universal service obligation for 3G and 4G signals.

Statistics have been covered but the local topography means the signal

does not reach the aims and leading visit my constituency where people

are suffering. Well, I have news him because the next month, Ofcom will

be publishing data at a premise level for those fixed line broadband

and mobile phone coverage at each premise and, if the coverage is

different to what Ofcom say, they have a mechanism where you can feed

back to get a proper map of where they get coverage of both fixed line

and mobile, and I would fall quality that's coming out enormously. I'm

sure the select committee will investigate the data with great

aplomb. Of course. I'm very grateful to my honourable friend forgiving

way. Could I ask him to ensure that proper discussion takes place with

DCMG to make sure the most liberal planning regime for phone that is in

place to make sure they get a basic technological funds. Yes, we changed

the law and the new rules came into place last week. Nobody prayed again

either. There is unanimous support. If he wants to work with me on what

further steps might be needed, to improve that applying regime

further, then I am all ears. Of course. Generous. On his premises by

premises survey which she refers, can I caution him and pressing a

little whiny methodology? I live in a dense urban area. It is nominally

4G. I check my phone periodically and sometimes it is 3G. Sometimes it

is 4G. I gave a 4G, which is the future, but I can get it all the

time. Well, I would say that 5G is the future. On the substance of his

point, without this turning into a seminar on mobile connectivity, as

more people use data over a particular mast, then I think the

industry has a wonderful phrase that this phenomenon, which they say the

coverage reasons. That is to say it comes in and goes out as other

people use the data. -- the coverage breathes. It may be different. This

has to be taken into account and the best people do this and analysis are

Ofcom. They are doing. It is best to have this debate once they publicly

driven by Brendan Baker. Of course. I am do my honourable friend for his

incorporation of the Green paper about some of the issues raised by

the new clauses. No one will believe the figure that almost 90% of UK

premises are covered. It does not stack up with reality or with rigid

infrastructure MP 's findings. I want to make sure that you doesn't

want to believe this nonsense. I'm looking forward to seeing the data

for that reason. Covering a rural constituency, I can drive for ten

minutes without getting a signal at all, including Bath houses. That is

probably the same from many of us. -- past houses. That is why it is

good to judge whether these figures I write and I am with him. Our job

in this house is to hold people to account to deliver great geographic

coverage, whether in Rhondda or in Llewellyn or in Suffolk. Or indeed

in Buckinghamshire. I will give away one last time on this section. I

thank the Minister for giving way and I just want to make what is a

quick and constructive point. I encourage all members to make

constituents downwardly Ofcom at which is designed to gather data so

we are better informed. -- app. Please publicise this in your

constituency. Quite fair and, as he may say, I'm not sure that is

entirely a matter for this bill but he has made his point. New clauses

21, 22 and 27 from Plaid and the SNP are not necessary because they have

set at the position. On new clause 21, it is already a requirement that

these sites must be made available to all the network operators. On 22,

of, already has the power to do so. -- Ofcom. On new clause 27, we

already have a USO in this get high speed broadband in any premise. That

is the goal we share. On 26, the commentator is your interference to

assisted listening devices very seriously and, where necessary, will

work with the actor Jake appropriate action to where interference has

been notified. I met with the national deaf Children's Society and

I can tell the house that further testing will commence next month and

Ofcom will publish their findings by April 20 17th and I hope you're

making some progress on that important matter. I will. I'm

grateful. Just on that, I'm encouraged by what the Minister is

saying but there is a particular issue for deaf children where

interference from the spectrum can have a very bad effect on their

education. We pay attention to children in schools. Of course I

will. -- will you? I have discussed that and I will continue to work on

it. Turning finally to Government Amendment 23 and 24, these are

technical amendments about the installation of electronically

negations apparatus on tidal land owned by the Crown. I would

recommend to the house that they are the gel and technical, and that they

should support them. -- detailed. I beg to move the amendments and I

hope, following these extra nations, the new clauses that we table the

commitments I've given, that honourable members would withdraw

theirs. Thank you. Age and location regulators power to direct Internet

service providers to block access to material. Order. The question is

that new clause 28 B read a second time? Thank you very much. I move to

clause 27, which stand in the name of my honourable friend. And to

discuss the new clause of much of the Minister has just outlines to

the house and to new clause one, which is part of this group as the

Minister has mentioned. I also make reference to some of the other

amendments in this group. We made it clear in committee that we could not

see how age verification could operate without power to block

sites. That failed to comply, as did the honourable lady. The Minister

resisted that very strongly and I quote, he says that the powers are

not a silver bullet, sites are actively trying to avoid the bill

and they could actively avoid these measures. It is questionable how

much additional enforcement power they would bring in giving nose and

down the sites. He went on to say that the bill has ended up with the

correct balance. That is what he said in committee. Clearly, the

secretary of state disagreed with him on that and she has now

overruled her junior minister by tabling new clauses 28 and 29 in her

name. As they can see on the order paper and in the event and will. The

new clauses tabled by the Secretary of State who is now no longer in

place, represent very significant changes at quite a late common stage

to the bill concerning our contention that the bill, as

published, was not ready to leave home when it was allowed to do so.

Without age verification by the Minister. I will give way. Grateful.

As he knows from his ministerial experience, it is the job of junior

middle ranking ministers to do all the work and secretaries of state to

take all the credit. In this case, I can assure him that the ears of all

the Government front bench with opens to the changes he and I wanted

to make. I am very grateful for that intervention and all I can say is

that the secretary of state, I will just get to the credit as he is a

lesson that I should for this change. -- give her the credit. The

new clauses are very significant changes at this late stage of the

bill. There have been concerns raised about them as we can support

them. They're been concerns in the rest of the amendments go well

beyond a backstop power, potentially, to block sites to under

18 and a cute in fact used to extend Internet censorship -- they cooed.

We need to be clear as to whether that is the intention through these

news clauses? I will give way on that point. I have also seen those

reports and I think the reports misread the bill. It is not our

intention or understanding of the working of the amendments. I think

it's very helpful to have that on the wreckage. Note that the part of

the bill will be poured over and I was bloody gel when they arrive in

the other place but given time dimer time constraint is a. We do not have

the time to pour over these proposals and had been building

ready, we would have. Notwithstanding article for

blocking, I think there is a lot more scrutiny will be required when

there is more time available in the other place when they come to

discuss these Government new clauses on the assumption that the house

passes them tonight. We have argued repeatedly that the bill to repair

the UK -- prepare the UK for the challenges. Digital resilience of

the key part of the bell and the opportunities can't be exploited in

the Digital economy unless they feel safe and secure online. That is

nowhere more important and clear and any case of other children. Children

are growing up today in a midst of information revolution that even a

decade ago, was an unimaginable thing with an astonishing range of

information and today's children are taking in an astonishing five times

more information on any generation which are in need not so distant

1990s. Far from tabloid stories about a distracted generation, there

is growing up today are, in some ways, an positive on the most

involved generation in history but, of course, Mr Ziegler, knowledge is

not understanding. -- Mr Speaker. Wisdom comes from experience. The

challenges of this revolution cannot be ignored and the challenges across

the country that parents worry about everything all day. They are worried

they may not know what their children are being subjected to

online, whether bullying are coming across inappropriate images and as

their children come to know much more about the online world and

Nadine, parents feel they may not be best placed to stop it. In our view,

new clause ten, which we have tabled, would help of all to face up

to that challenge. Our new clause will amend that to teach secondary

school pupils in an age appropriate way and with the usual safeguards

which applied to that act about the dangers of the online world and how

to keep yourself safe. With digital devices more widespread among

children than ever before, with five - 15-year-olds spending an average

of 24 hours online every week, having no clear indication to sit

alongside the blood instruments, and it is a blunt instrument of age

verification contained within the bill, it feels to us like that is an

important missing part of the bill. Age verification in the Digital

Economy Bill to stop children seeing harmful content is welcome but as

the minister hinted himself, it is not the whole answer. You can build

a swimming pool, fill it with water, build a fence around it, and put up

a sign saying swimming is dangerous, but the most important thing is to

teach your children how to swim. If we solely rely on age verification

as the main way that we are going to tackle this problem, then it will be

inadequate. Age verification cannot teach children about healthy

relationships. It cannot help them to navigate the expectations placed

on them and reinforce online. That can only be done through well

devised and well taught sex and relationship education which

incorporate conversations about online pornography. So that children

can question what they see online in a safe environment. A recent NSPCC

report on pornography online and the under 18 's was troubling. They

founded a poor model for consent for practising safe sex and could

distort the image of a sexual relationship. But the government

have so far refused to consider statutory online sexual education

and the government's keeping children safe strategy dedicated

three paragraphs to the online world. Taken in tandem with this

Digital Economy Bill, which does not give a single mention of online

abuse or online education, it seems that ministers are ducking the

challenge or not able to comprehend it. We have always known that

education matters in this area. When we were in government, we expanded

and updated sexual education and commissioned the Tanya Byron Review

these lessons were abandoned largely, after 2010. That is why, in

the Digital Economy Bill, we want to take steps to devote -- towards

developing education for the online generation. We wanted to develop

beyond sex education to the entire online world. So that children can

make safe and informed decisions. With an 800% increase in children

contacting the NSPCC about online abuse, it is clear this is a real

problem for today's schoolchildren. They need more support, more advice,

some won't return to. Statutory online education would work in

tandem with educators to prevent online abuse. I will give way. Thank

you for giving way to the Shadow Minister. I am attracted to what he

has within his amendment because I, like him, feel that more needs to be

done to educate children in this area. But I am concerned that it is

talking about Internet pornography in isolation and could potentially

not really address the problem is that he is trying to address in his

remarks which are far broader than Internet pornography. I would

welcome her support for a wider amendment, a wider change in