05/12/2016 House of Commons


05/12/2016

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families need a lot of assistance with helping with translation and

:00:00.:00:00.

learning being this language and helping with their families. Of

:00:00.:00:00.

course I will keep the support under review. Order. Will the member

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wishing to take her seat please come to the table.

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I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance

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to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors according to

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law, so help me God. -- Sarah Olney, member for Richmond.

:00:48.:01:09.

Sarah, many congratulations. Order. Urging question, Caroline

:01:10.:01:55.

Lucas. Mr Speaker, could the Minister make a statement on

:01:56.:01:57.

Southern Rail services? Thank you Mr Speaker. Performance on

:01:58.:02:05.

the southern network has been affected by a combination of factors

:02:06.:02:10.

over the previous months. These have included trade union action,

:02:11.:02:12.

infrastructure reliability and operator issues. The unions have

:02:13.:02:22.

struck industry production in the run-up to Christmas. Let me be

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clear, this strike action is politically motivated. It has

:02:29.:02:32.

affected mass passengers were far too long. Union leaders have even

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described this as carrying on Fidel's work. This will be of no

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comfort to passengers, who just want to get to work. For the director of

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railway safety in the office for rail and road. Responding to the

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safety concern from the unions, Ian Prosser says, DOO is safe. The RNC

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and Aslef should not be... Once again I can assure the hard-working

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staff on GTR franchise that no trained staff are losing pay and no

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one is losing their job. Passengers want and deserve improvements, which

:03:23.:03:27.

is why in September the Secretary of State appointed Chris Gibb, a

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leading railway professional, to work with the operator and Network

:03:31.:03:33.

Rail to identify areas where performance on the network can be

:03:34.:03:38.

improved quickly. Some of these interventions are under way and

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would be making a significant difference by now, were it not for

:03:44.:03:46.

the fact that owing to continued industrial action by RMT and now

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planned action by Aslef, Southern Rail Services are to be subject to

:03:53.:03:58.

further delays and alterations now and over the coming weeks. In

:03:59.:04:04.

recognition, the Secretary of State announced on the 2nd of September a

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refund package that will compensate season-ticket holders with a package

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equivalent to one free month in act knowledge of exceptional issues this

:04:14.:04:20.

year. They also announced that GTR would be the first franchise to

:04:21.:04:27.

introduce... Starting an 11th of December. But compensation alone is

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not enough, we have to restore a timely, reliable and predictable

:04:32.:04:35.

train service. That is why the work of Mr Gibb is focusing on reducing

:04:36.:04:40.

the Network Rail faults, it is why we have new safety on trains that

:04:41.:04:45.

can cope with the number of people wanting to use them, it is why I've

:04:46.:04:52.

continued to ensure that the train operating company is doing

:04:53.:04:55.

everything in its power to run improved services. But we also need

:04:56.:04:59.

union leaders to stop their needless, unreasonable,

:05:00.:05:02.

disproportionate and politically motivated strikes. Caroline Lucas.

:05:03.:05:09.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank the Minister for that reply. I put this

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question today with cross-party support for members right across the

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house because on Friday we heard that Southern Rail Services will be

:05:18.:05:21.

Mr Gandhi disrupted every day from tomorrow until further notice. That

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grim warning of imminent service collapse comes on top of more than

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two years of rail chaos, long before any strikes happened. Back in May

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2015 the then rail minister said that our ministers were flashing red

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in her department. 18 months on, my constituents are regularly in tears

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of anger and frustration, jobs are being lost, relationships being

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broken up, the economy seriously damaged. This situation is

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intolerable and the Government can't just simply wash its hands of

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involvement. So will the Minister roll up its sleeves -- his sleeves

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and get stuck in to resolve the prices acrobatic space crisis. Will

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he convene a meeting with the unions and with GTR to make this -- work

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this out and restore some reliability to this vital public

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service, and in so doing, show that he is not prepared to allow this

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crucial piece of infrastructure to simply collapse? To end this

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stalemate, will his department take charge of this contract in the open,

:06:23.:06:28.

strip GTR of the franchise, bring it back in-house and that at least

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would increase the transparency around what is going on here. When

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four example with a concrete timetable, GTR reporting its

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performance be revealed? Will published date of the published

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weekly and where? It is tied to make it accountable. Will he answer the

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outstanding questions and today provide urgent clarity about whether

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GTR is in default? The transport committee called for a decision on

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GTR in early 2016 but it is now December, why hasn't he answered on

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time? I don't think the Minister has any idea of the pain that passengers

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and ministers in Brighton and beyond are suffering, because if he did he

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would be doing more about it. We have a catastrophic stalemate. What

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exactly is the minister going to do about this? My constituents in

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Brighton want to hear that he is going to get involved. Anything else

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is not enough. Minister Maynard. I'm grateful for her urgent question.

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But the best thing she can do under half of her constituents is to go

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and speak to her close friends in the RMT and tell them to call off

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their disproportionate and unreasonable industrial action. That

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is the best contribution she can make. Not answering the question...

:07:52.:07:58.

Mr Speaker, thank you very much for calling me in with this important,

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urgent question because this is not just about the Brighton mainline but

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communities in my own area. Students trying to get to school from

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Edenbridge to Tonbridge and others have been going to misery. The

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nationalised Network Rail has failed us again and again. Can the Minister

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please get on with sorting them out too? Minister. My honourable friend

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is entirely right to point out the impact this is having on his

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constituents in Kent. I travelled through London Bridge and saw some

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of the delays that were occurring. He's quite right. But the only

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long-term solution for this overburdened part of the network is

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for both Network Rail and the train operating companies to allow the

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incentives to work together to fix the underlying problems that plagued

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this network. Andy McDonald. Thank you Mr Speaker. This house is still

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having to address the abysmal service provided by Southern Rail

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after a year and a half of substandard service is testament to

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both Southern's incompetence and the extent to which this Government is

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committed to privatise rail even when franchises have become so

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deeply dysfunctional that they are unable to provide a decent public

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service. Mr Speaker, GTR should be stripped of their franchise long ago

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for failing to plan properly to take on the franchise as they themselves

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have admitted and providing what is by far the country's worst rail

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service. Instead the government have defended the southern to the hilt

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excusing or their failings of being the result of unavoidable industrial

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dispute allowing the cancellation of hundreds of services and repeatedly

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throwing tax because Manny had the problem. The honourable gentleman

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will sell us about Mr Gibb but why not about Mr Robinson who says he

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wants to staff the RMT back to work and he wants those people out of his

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well away industry. On Friday it was announced that Southern

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season-ticket holders would eligible for compensation eligible to a

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month's travel. Yet more money spent on the service. But they announced,

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session will apply to around 84,000 passengers and yet Southerners

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responsible for 6,020,000 passenger journeys per year. While any amount

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of conversation is welcome Will the Minister take this opportunity to

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acknowledge that the measures announced on Friday will not come

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close to compensating the majority of passengers who have suffered

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Southern's abysmal service for the past year and a half and considering

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the fair I is scheduled for the start of the a few commuters

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receiving compensation those were wiped out by inflation busting

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fares. Sadly Mr Speaker a decent rail service... I know how to deal

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with these managers. Members are taking too long. The minister was

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just in time but am afraid the honourable gentleman has exceeded

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his son. We have to establish a disconnected means two minutes or

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under, not two and a half minutes or three minutes. We have to stick to

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these procedures. I am surprised he is so opposed to the idea of

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compensating southern passengers but he is right about one thing. This is

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entirely irresolvable dispute. As he rightly pointed out. It is

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resolvable because the RMT can recognise this as a safe mode of

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operation, call out the strikes and we can get on with improving the

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network. The Minister said no staff would lose the job but cannot tell

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the Minister that is not the case for some of my constituents who have

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been sacked because they have been made. Has the balance of rights as

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possibilities in our society not gone somewhat astray that in order

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to improve their terms and conditions were actually costing

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other citizens their jobs. There is a grossly disproportionate nature of

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this industrial action. He is right to point out that commuters up and

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down the GTR network are experiencing a poorer

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quality-of-life because of this unwarranted industrial action. , go

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order, order. The shadow Secretary of State should take some subtle

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soothing medicament, he will be aware I suggested to his north-east

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colleagues sometime ago it might be advisable to take up yoga because it

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will have a therapeutic effect. Or even yoghurt. The overall situation

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for passengers is intolerable and ever since and eat your heart

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receiving ?1 billion a year in fees and the apartment is exposed to ?30

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million of lost revenue. What can the departments do to try to resolve

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this situation? Some months ago the right Honourable Lady will Beer

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where that we asked Chris Gibb to take a look into the operational by

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the network, the infrastructure and the train operating company. We look

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forward to receiving his report by the end of year which will guide us

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and how to make rapid noticeable identifiable improvements. The RMT

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members who are adding to the destruction of all our constituents

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are also the employees. Can we please be told how much they earn,

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how many of them have signed up to the new operating arrangements" what

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the issue is that is stopping them from reaching an agreement and

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allowing other workers to work reliably and students and teachers

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can get to work and old people visit their friends? My right honourable

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friend is right to point out why this is such a grossly

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disproportionate action from the RMT. Over 220 of the 223 staff

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involved have signed up to the new contracts to carry out the role of

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on-board supervisor. They are striking against a role they have

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all agreed to take up. That is in my view both unreasonable and

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disproportionate. Part of the problem is that every single promise

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made from that dispatch box has not improved the service on single iota

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in the last 18 months. Today there was a non-strike day but it was a

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complete shambles between Brighton and London. Will the Minister just

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say he will do whatever it takes to improve this service? I entirely

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recognise that the service today has been disappointing due to a broken

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rail between East Croydon and Gatwick but that is happening far

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too often I see rightly points out. I expect both GTR and Network Rail

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to address these underlying performance issues. They can only do

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so if they are also faced with an unwarranted, unjustifiable

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industrial action. My constituents in Basingstoke who commute regularly

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look at the situation on Southern with horror. What assurances can the

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Minister give that a similar such action could not spread to other

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areas particularly as we are currently renegotiating the

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contract. Recognise the honourable Lady's concerned that I would say to

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her that we can all train operating services across country to ensure

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they do have an account to operate a reliable service and they will do

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that with whoever emerges. I have the analysis of the feedback from

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the 1000 constituents who have been in touch with me about the

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performance of Southern rail and it is a catalogue of misery. The

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failure of Southern rail is affecting my constituents's work,

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family love, health and well-being. When will the Minister confirm real

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devolution for London so that transport for London that has high

:17:09.:17:13.

levels of customer satisfaction can run these services and where will my

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constituents's Southern Major -- misery on. Hope she will join with

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me in urging all sides in this dispute to return to the negotiation

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table and reach an agreement to put the needs of the passengers first,

:17:30.:17:37.

not the interests of the unions. , I apologise for my interjection

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earlier. Mr Speaker, while girlfriend was absolutely right to

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say that the price for the RMT's self-indulgent politically motivated

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strike action is being felt on jobs for young people turn to get to

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work. This is the undertow, its day has wait gone and bad strike must

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end. But will my right honourable friend find himself in a position to

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be able to confirm that the train operating company 's will now be

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able to take greater control of the works of Network Rail in the future

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so that we can solve some of the structural problems? I thank the

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honourable gentleman. Camille very gently telling that I now realise

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why 20s go the honourable gentleman was affectionately described to me

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by the very near constituency neighbour of his as "Peppery". ,

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Crow I shall perhaps observe that the secretary of state will be

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making a speech on this issue tomorrow evening. He made there for

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wish to pay close attention to the following day 's papers to learn

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more as to what might be announced. I know it sits -- said some to blame

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problems on the union but my constituents have been putting up

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with a disgraceful service for the best part of two years. My

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honourable friend asked the question about TEFL which has better

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satisfaction, we want this company, GTR, stripped of the franchise. Will

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the Minister confirm, is it still the intention of government to

:19:19.:19:21.

facilitate this and that we say to him, we do not want to wait until

:19:22.:19:28.

2021, get on and do it now. He is certainly right to identify the

:19:29.:19:30.

problems that are occurring on the network but the answer to this

:19:31.:19:35.

problems can only be solved if we are not facing industrial action on

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the network day in, day out which makes it impossible for those who

:19:40.:19:49.

wish to deal with both Network Rail and GTR and other companies. Can the

:19:50.:19:59.

man Minister confirm that the problems are caused by the film that

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has not been well run or by unacceptable union practices which

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are rendered all the more this at Christmas time? I thank my right

:20:09.:20:11.

honourable friend, it is an important point. It is noticeable

:20:12.:20:15.

that the RMT adjusted its strike days because of the public outrage.

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I would urge them to go one step further and call off the strike

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altogether and get back around the negotiating table. 'S coincidently I

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delivered a petition to number ten this morning calling for Southern to

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be sacked. Will the Minister of knowledge it is not just the

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unacceptable and pointless union action that is causing chaos on the

:20:42.:20:53.

network but also repeated necrophilia, a shortage of drivers,

:20:54.:20:56.

and when will the Minister step in and take control of the failing

:20:57.:21:02.

company hand-pass was possible to take to transport for London. We

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called for this as far back as 1999. And ensure passengers are provided

:21:08.:21:12.

with much more generous compensation. His analysis is

:21:13.:21:15.

correct but what I do not think the fully appreciate is that the need to

:21:16.:21:20.

focus on Network Rail as the source of many delays means we have to have

:21:21.:21:27.

full, rapid and ready access to the track day in and day out. We cannot

:21:28.:21:32.

do that against a backdrop of continual industrial action. I have

:21:33.:21:41.

long campaigned for compensation, can I thank the Minister for the

:21:42.:21:45.

step toward it today. On the Posh online we have a huge number of

:21:46.:21:50.

trains being cancelled or delayed. As a result of failures to the

:21:51.:21:54.

cameras on board, that seem to work very well as well. Camille Yu Cen to

:21:55.:21:58.

get GTR to get a grip on this. Why that there is a technical fault or

:21:59.:22:01.

some other issue that is interfering. My right honourable

:22:02.:22:11.

friend is owed assiduous credit and I hope he will welcome last Friday's

:22:12.:22:18.

announcement. On the matter regarding trends to Horsham I

:22:19.:22:24.

understand the faults on this particular trains are running at

:22:25.:22:29.

almost double what is usually to be expected. GTR are looking into the

:22:30.:22:34.

matter further. I will write to him with the outcome of that

:22:35.:22:41.

investigation. Can I tell them of stuff started committing from Forest

:22:42.:22:48.

Hill into London Bridge in 1963 and in all that time subsequently, the

:22:49.:22:57.

service has never been as unreliable and as chaotic as it is today. I do

:22:58.:23:05.

not use them a gradual, I use the overground service but unfortunately

:23:06.:23:07.

large part of my constituency and just about every other constituency

:23:08.:23:12.

concerned, do not have that option. Many of my constituents blame

:23:13.:23:23.

Southern, some unions and some Network Rail. We have heard about

:23:24.:23:28.

track failure is causing chaos. When will he and the government do

:23:29.:23:31.

something to reassure my constituents and those of everybody

:23:32.:23:34.

in this chamber that the government is actually trying to do the best

:23:35.:23:37.

they can for commuters rather than leaving them to the fate of the most

:23:38.:23:40.

incompetent organisation in the entire UK rail industry?

:23:41.:23:45.

The honourable gentleman has given new meaning to the description

:23:46.:23:51.

delayed journey. Members will be aware Chris Doak is an extreme

:23:52.:23:53.

acrobatic -- is an extremely aware... I look

:23:54.:24:13.

forward to seamy improvement we are all anxious to see.

:24:14.:24:17.

Given that tomorrow two of my towns, Seaford and New will see their rail

:24:18.:24:24.

service ceased to exist and instead have bus replacement services, from

:24:25.:24:30.

next week for the stations in my constituency will see no rail

:24:31.:24:35.

service at all for several days, the Government response is just not good

:24:36.:24:38.

enough. The Government need to intervene and get this sorted. The

:24:39.:24:44.

honourable lady has never been anything less than assiduous in

:24:45.:24:50.

campaigning on the half of Lewis, Seaford and Newhaven and their rail

:24:51.:24:54.

services. But I would make the point to heard that the devolution in

:24:55.:24:59.

service to her constituency is because of an announced threat of

:25:00.:25:02.

strike action, against a something they've already been doing for many,

:25:03.:25:07.

many months. 30% of our commuter network is driver controlled

:25:08.:25:12.

operation. Aslef have been operating this system for many months on the

:25:13.:25:20.

new... But they are now striking on precisely what they have been doing.

:25:21.:25:23.

That also is disproportionate and unreasonable. Mr Speaker, commuters

:25:24.:25:28.

in Croydon and elsewhere have suffered enough and they certainly

:25:29.:25:33.

shouldn't be expected to pay any more for the services they use for

:25:34.:25:40.

rail chaos. Will the minister now show that he recognises the extent

:25:41.:25:45.

of the failure and rule out any fair rises -- any fare rises next year?

:25:46.:25:55.

We have always said we will cap rail fair in creases on RPI plus zero.

:25:56.:26:01.

But the impact on southern customers, we announced a

:26:02.:26:05.

compensation package last Friday that amounted to one month's free

:26:06.:26:08.

travel for annual season ticket holders. Mr Speaker, our

:26:09.:26:19.

constituents in Sussex are at their wits end and we're at our wits end,

:26:20.:26:23.

notwithstanding the chaos being caused by these completely

:26:24.:26:27.

unjustified strikes, last week's announcement on compensation was a

:26:28.:26:30.

good start but a start and taking away with the other hand worthy

:26:31.:26:34.

price rises that went with it. When we have a proper transparent penalty

:26:35.:26:43.

system for GTR commuters when they are delayed without them having to

:26:44.:26:47.

go through a very bureaucratic process of claiming it? It might add

:26:48.:26:52.

some urgency to GTR to actually sort this out. I recognise the honourable

:26:53.:26:56.

gentleman's concern to make sure that automatic compensation for

:26:57.:27:00.

delays is broadened out as fast as it possibly can be. We need to

:27:01.:27:03.

ensure that it is a system that works and works well, and we need to

:27:04.:27:09.

make sure that the positives are -- the passengers were on the trains

:27:10.:27:13.

that they say they were on and were delayed. We need a technological

:27:14.:27:18.

solution and I'm keen to improve it, and GTR will be the first we get to

:27:19.:27:20.

try this out on. Chris felt. Thank you Mr Speaker. Residents in

:27:21.:27:29.

Croydon have been suffering from the terrible service for many months

:27:30.:27:32.

now. Does the Minister agree this is partly due to track and

:27:33.:27:39.

infrastructure failings, partly due to GTR's incompetence and partly due

:27:40.:27:45.

to the intransigence of the RNC. If the RMT cannot be prevailed upon to

:27:46.:27:50.

call off this needless strike, will the Minister consider legislating to

:27:51.:27:55.

ban this kind of strike action on critical public infrastructure? He

:27:56.:27:58.

said he might identify the fact that this is an investment, not just in

:27:59.:28:02.

the ?20 million we have already put in but the support, the money will

:28:03.:28:08.

have to go in to ensure that one of the most overburdened parts of our

:28:09.:28:12.

network is able to properly meet the needs of those who rely upon it to

:28:13.:28:15.

get to work, to school and all the other areas that life depends upon

:28:16.:28:22.

in the south-east. Thank you Mr Speaker. I too thank the Minister

:28:23.:28:29.

for the start in terms of compensation and as all those who

:28:30.:28:34.

suffer across the network every day, with this intolerable situation and

:28:35.:28:40.

all those using the bridge across to Southampton Airport, often

:28:41.:28:42.

travelling to Gatwick Airport from Swanwick. Will the Minister confirm

:28:43.:28:45.

that he is looking at the broad ranging harm which is caused by this

:28:46.:28:50.

disproportionate political strike affecting regional airports as well

:28:51.:28:58.

as local businesses? I always recognise the importance of

:28:59.:29:00.

Southampton Airport Parkway in the overall network but it is for South

:29:01.:29:05.

West trains and indeed the southern network to meet individual

:29:06.:29:08.

colleagues with individual concerns such as that. I'm more than happy to

:29:09.:29:12.

discuss Southampton Airport's needs with her further. Thank you. I have

:29:13.:29:18.

the misfortune of having the misery line runs through my constituency

:29:19.:29:23.

and I welcome the Government's step for compensation. It's now time for

:29:24.:29:26.

the unions to show similar boldness and call off the strikes. However,

:29:27.:29:31.

the timetable is not worth the paper it's written on. What more can the

:29:32.:29:35.

Minister do to get GTR management to get a grip and stop running a

:29:36.:29:39.

service that doesn't require compensation from the Government

:29:40.:29:45.

because it is so appalling? I'm grateful to her, she has been a

:29:46.:29:52.

staunch advocate... We suffer from an inadequate railway line. What I

:29:53.:29:56.

would say to her is the most important thing we can do at this

:29:57.:30:01.

stage is for the unions to call off industrial action and for GTR and

:30:02.:30:06.

Network Rail to focus on what really matters, ensuring we have a reliable

:30:07.:30:09.

and timely and punctual railway network. We want to get rid of this

:30:10.:30:20.

horrendous performance exacerbated by the unions, my residence in

:30:21.:30:24.

Sutton. So that we can get back to the mere poor performance and

:30:25.:30:26.

tackling those underlying issues like rail come -- rail stock and

:30:27.:30:33.

more drivers. What about the passengers that are paying by oyster

:30:34.:30:42.

as pay as you go, what can they expect in return? My honourable

:30:43.:30:45.

friend is quite right to point out that particularly in the inner parts

:30:46.:30:49.

of London in those suburban areas, people are equally reliant on

:30:50.:30:55.

Southern Rail. There will also be season-ticket reduction commission

:30:56.:30:59.

they have annually or quarterly tickets and compensation, and that

:31:00.:31:12.

to me so is the function of wherever they live on the southern network.

:31:13.:31:16.

The Minister refers to a letter I received from the director rail

:31:17.:31:20.

safety, specifying that this form of technology is not only safe but has

:31:21.:31:25.

been tested by southern as safe. Given that the unions continue to

:31:26.:31:30.

use safety for this dispute, would the Minister consider using

:31:31.:31:32.

legislation stopping unions from striking on the grounds of safety,

:31:33.:31:37.

where the regulating the industry has been that as safe? Well, my

:31:38.:31:42.

honourable friend has done the country a great service in his time

:31:43.:31:46.

on the transport Select Committee, trying to nail the myth that DTO is

:31:47.:31:54.

in some way and an safe way of driving trains. The director of rail

:31:55.:32:00.

safety in the office for road and rail called it abundantly clear and

:32:01.:32:04.

was examined closely in the Select Committee meeting and he could not

:32:05.:32:08.

have been clearer. It is now for Aslef and the RMT to pay heed to his

:32:09.:32:12.

words, call off these unreasonable and disproportionate strikes. The

:32:13.:32:19.

state-owned Network Rail is clearly not fit for purpose. The private

:32:20.:32:23.

sector train operating companies have weak and ineffectual management

:32:24.:32:27.

and the rail unions are organising politically motivated strikes. If

:32:28.:32:31.

this were happening in local Government, the Government would

:32:32.:32:34.

have sent in its own commissioners to sort out the organisation. Why

:32:35.:32:39.

doesn't it do so in this case? My honourable friend I think is quite

:32:40.:32:42.

right to point out the importance of getting track and train operators to

:32:43.:32:49.

have incentives and work together to ensure they deliver a better service

:32:50.:32:52.

on the part passengers the Secretary of State has made -- made no secret

:32:53.:33:01.

of the fact that he views that working to bring better results on

:33:02.:33:06.

the network and we look forward to reporting that in due course and

:33:07.:33:12.

improving the service that all passengers, whatever political party

:33:13.:33:14.

they support, whatever their views on how the railways should be

:33:15.:33:18.

structured, they want to see a timely, reliable and punctual rail

:33:19.:33:21.

service but what is in the way of that is the R.N. To and -- the RMT

:33:22.:33:28.

and Aslef with their disproportionate and unreasonable

:33:29.:33:32.

industrial action. Order. The clerk will now proceed to read the orders

:33:33.:33:39.

of the day. Children and social work bill second reading. I call the

:33:40.:33:43.

Minister of State from the Department for Education, Minister

:33:44.:33:46.

of State Mr Nicola Scott. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. -- Mr

:33:47.:33:49.

Nicholas did. I'm delighted, Mr Speaker, to be

:33:50.:33:57.

able to open this debate in the absence of the Secretary of State,

:33:58.:34:01.

who is in Shanghai at the education Summit. I know she regrets not being

:34:02.:34:08.

here and she sends her apologies. As the Secretary of State made clear

:34:09.:34:11.

when she spoke at the national children and adults services

:34:12.:34:14.

conference a few weeks ago, nothing is more important than making sure

:34:15.:34:19.

that children get the best start in life, that they feel safe, are well

:34:20.:34:23.

looked after and are able to fulfil their dreams. Nowhere is that more

:34:24.:34:29.

important than for those children who don't have the benefit of a

:34:30.:34:33.

loving family to help them on their way and support them as they grow

:34:34.:34:37.

up, or who face other significant challenges which make it harder for

:34:38.:34:42.

them to flourish and thrive. Children's social care professionals

:34:43.:34:46.

perform some of society's most vital, most important work and we

:34:47.:34:50.

trust them with nothing less than keeping our children safe and making

:34:51.:34:54.

the life changing decisions about what is best for their futures.

:34:55.:35:00.

These are highly challenging, highly complex tasks, performed by deeply

:35:01.:35:03.

dedicated and committed individuals. But as we'll know, the system within

:35:04.:35:08.

which these individuals work is far from perfect, meaning the help and

:35:09.:35:16.

support being offered to honourable children in many parts of the

:35:17.:35:19.

country is a long way from being consistently excellent. Evidence

:35:20.:35:23.

shows that most local authorities struggle in some way to provide

:35:24.:35:27.

consistently effective cause social work practice and that is why this

:35:28.:35:32.

Government is determined to bring about the widest reaching reforms to

:35:33.:35:36.

children's social care and social work for a generation. The views I

:35:37.:35:44.

Professor Eileen Munro and others have given us a deep understanding

:35:45.:35:50.

of the challenges faced by children's social care. They have

:35:51.:35:53.

described a system in which initial social worker training is not

:35:54.:35:57.

consistently preparing students for the challenges of the job and those

:35:58.:36:03.

already doing it too often lack the time, specialist skill and

:36:04.:36:05.

supervision needed to achieve real change for children and families. A

:36:06.:36:12.

system that focuses too much on management and is driven by

:36:13.:36:15.

prescribed approaches rather than excellent practice, a system where

:36:16.:36:18.

services have not always been designed around vulnerable children

:36:19.:36:21.

and innovation hasn't been given enough space to thrive. So over the

:36:22.:36:27.

last six years, the Government has taken important steps towards

:36:28.:36:31.

addressing these challenges. For example, we have raised standards in

:36:32.:36:35.

children's homes and enabled young people in foster care to remain with

:36:36.:36:40.

their carer up to the age of 21. We've invested ?100 million through

:36:41.:36:44.

our innovation programme to allow radical new approaches to children's

:36:45.:36:47.

social care to be developed and tested and in April, we announced a

:36:48.:36:52.

?200 million extension to the programme to take this further

:36:53.:36:56.

still. We've taken a variety of steps to enhance the status, the

:36:57.:36:59.

skills and capacity of the those shall work profession, both

:37:00.:37:04.

children's and adults, including appointing chief social workers,

:37:05.:37:09.

publishing definitive statements of the knowledge and skills required by

:37:10.:37:13.

adult and children's social workers and investing over ?750 million

:37:14.:37:18.

since 2010 in both traditional and fast tracked routes into the

:37:19.:37:22.

profession. And we are starting to see things change. If the honourable

:37:23.:37:26.

member will forgive me, I would like to just explain of the tenants of

:37:27.:37:29.

the bill and then I will come back and take some intervention. We are

:37:30.:37:35.

starting to see things change. We have this year seen the first

:37:36.:37:39.

outstanding judgments under the most recent and most challenging Ofsted

:37:40.:37:44.

framework. Local authorities are testing innovative ways of

:37:45.:37:48.

supporting families through the children's social care innovation

:37:49.:37:51.

programme. Examples of excellent leadership across the country are

:37:52.:37:55.

being celebrated by Ofsted and by others. But we are under no illusion

:37:56.:37:58.

that there is still much more to be done and that is why in July this

:37:59.:38:03.

year, the Department for Education published a clear and ambitious

:38:04.:38:07.

vision and plan for the changes that need to be made to drive sustainable

:38:08.:38:10.

improvement across the whole country. This is our plan for

:38:11.:38:16.

putting children first, which sets out fundamental reforms across each

:38:17.:38:19.

of the three pillars on which the those shall care systems bands.

:38:20.:38:27.

People and leadership, practising systems and Government and

:38:28.:38:30.

accountability. The children in social work bill is a crucial part

:38:31.:38:33.

of delivering reforms across those three pillars. Part one of the bill

:38:34.:38:41.

concerns children who are in care or supported by the state. Clause one

:38:42.:38:46.

sets out for the first time a set of corporate parenting principles

:38:47.:38:48.

designed to establish consistently high standards in the support of

:38:49.:38:54.

looked after children and care leaders and drive a culture of

:38:55.:38:59.

excellent corporate parenting, principles are intended to help a

:39:00.:39:02.

local authority think and act in the interests of children in their care,

:39:03.:39:05.

in the same way any good parent would. This isn't about putting new

:39:06.:39:12.

duties on local authorities, it's about changing practice. The aim is

:39:13.:39:15.

to ensure that all parts of every tier of local Governor have the

:39:16.:39:18.

needs and circumstances of looked after children in care need is in

:39:19.:39:23.

their minds in their planning and decisions, and this responsibility

:39:24.:39:27.

goes beyond just children's social care, reaching across the whole of

:39:28.:39:30.

the local authority. Clause two will ensure that the corporate parenting

:39:31.:39:35.

you Dos extends into adulthood and make sure that all care need is our

:39:36.:39:44.

-- care leaders are sure about the support and how to access it. They

:39:45.:39:50.

will have knowledge about how to access it from the local authority.

:39:51.:39:56.

Clause three will give all care leavers access to support from a

:39:57.:40:03.

personal adviser at any point after the age of 25, and we amended the

:40:04.:40:06.

bill in another place to make sure that the service offered is offered

:40:07.:40:12.

at least annually, so that care leavers can take advantage of it

:40:13.:40:13.

whenever they need to. The bill recognises that children

:40:14.:40:38.

who are adopted or leave care under another often have ongoing

:40:39.:40:41.

difficulties resulting from their local life experiences. Clause is

:40:42.:40:45.

4-7 will give them access to the same support which looked after

:40:46.:40:51.

children received from school heads at local authority level. Following

:40:52.:41:02.

an undertaking given, we are bringing forward amendments which

:41:03.:41:07.

will extend these provisions to children adopted from overseas.

:41:08.:41:11.

Clauses eight and nine extend the factors that local authorities and

:41:12.:41:17.

courts must take into account when deciding the most appropriate place

:41:18.:41:21.

for a child. They do place more emphasis on stability and what would

:41:22.:41:27.

be in a child's best long-term interests, taking account of the

:41:28.:41:29.

impact of any harm that the child may have suffered.

:41:30.:41:34.

dualists I was trying to tell the minister after speaking in a

:41:35.:41:41.

delegated Legislation committee at 4:30pm. I wanted to ask a specific

:41:42.:41:48.

point. It relates to the lack of safeguarding checks for 16 and

:41:49.:41:53.

17-year-olds in private fostering arrangements. I had a situation

:41:54.:41:57.

where a young person in my constituency went to a private

:41:58.:42:01.

fostering arrangement within that age group and their parents were not

:42:02.:42:04.

able to get the assurances they would have had in a public setting

:42:05.:42:07.

and that's not addressed in the Bill and I wonder if the minister would

:42:08.:42:10.

look at that if I place amendment down? Of course. By now my

:42:11.:42:16.

honourable friend is very keen to engage in committee on the details

:42:17.:42:21.

and a particular case I know he will be very interested and will want to

:42:22.:42:22.

debate the issue. We have situation where children in

:42:23.:42:38.

care have been abused and has led to the investigation. We have to make

:42:39.:42:47.

the situation better. ? Safeguarding local safeguarding arrangements set

:42:48.:42:50.

out in the Bill will provide a strong statutory framework that puts

:42:51.:42:57.

responsibility on the police. And on the local authority to ensure there

:42:58.:43:02.

is a robust safeguarding system in place. With greater local

:43:03.:43:06.

flexibility. Arrangements are as effective as possible. Improved

:43:07.:43:15.

national arrangements for analysing these cases which I come onto,

:43:16.:43:20.

including child sexual abuse. Learning from those cases in a more

:43:21.:43:25.

systematic way with a higher standard set for social workers as

:43:26.:43:29.

well that is set out in that bill and that will enable Oxfordshire and

:43:30.:43:32.

other counties across the country to keep children safe than is currently

:43:33.:43:39.

the case. Mr Speaker, if I may, chapter two part one focuses largely

:43:40.:43:44.

on arrangements for children's safeguarding and protection and

:43:45.:43:48.

earlier this year Alan would the former director of children's

:43:49.:43:53.

services in Hackney and president of the body carried out a review for

:43:54.:43:56.

the government on the role and functions for safeguarding local

:43:57.:44:01.

children's boards and he found that local arrangements where Apache,

:44:02.:44:06.

fewer than half of them were judged by Ofsted to be good or better and

:44:07.:44:09.

reported there was a clear consensus in favour of reform. Strong

:44:10.:44:14.

partnership working from serious case reviews is key to keeping

:44:15.:44:19.

children safe. Causes 12-15 will establish a new child safeguarding

:44:20.:44:24.

practice review panel to review serious child safeguarding cases,

:44:25.:44:28.

which converts are of national importance. The purpose of the panel

:44:29.:44:31.

will be to improve the way be learned from cases where a child has

:44:32.:44:36.

died or been seriously harmed, where abuse or neglect of that child was

:44:37.:44:42.

known or suspected. Closes 16-30 will introduce a stronger statutory

:44:43.:44:46.

framework for child safeguarding and protection of the local level. The

:44:47.:44:51.

focus will shift away from wide-ranging local partnerships and

:44:52.:44:54.

place a duty on the three key agencies involved in safeguarding

:44:55.:44:57.

children, local authorities, police and health service to work together

:44:58.:45:02.

and with any relevant agencies to safeguard and promote the welfare of

:45:03.:45:04.

children. We're not introducing change for the sake of change.

:45:05.:45:13.

Existing... The Minister will be aware that the bill before us now is

:45:14.:45:17.

not the original bill thanks to the good work of the House of lords and

:45:18.:45:23.

removing clauses 29-33. The Secretary of State described them in

:45:24.:45:29.

the recent children and adults conference is about how we can put

:45:30.:45:32.

you in the best position to protect the children properly. The trouble

:45:33.:45:40.

is that the EU, 150 organisations and 90% of all social workers said

:45:41.:45:42.

they didn't want it, they were opposed to it, so will he now

:45:43.:45:46.

confirm that you will not try to re-introduced those clauses in the

:45:47.:45:51.

bill in this house? I listened very carefully to my honourable friend

:45:52.:45:57.

but he will be aware has been well supported, the power to innovate.

:45:58.:46:08.

The LGA supported, the EDC -esque, Catch-22 supported and the power is

:46:09.:46:12.

not to do with taking rights away from children, not to do with saving

:46:13.:46:15.

money, it's giving councils the opportunity to develop new ways of

:46:16.:46:21.

working which they believe will improve outcomes for children. If he

:46:22.:46:26.

says is not about taking away rights from children, one of the scenarios

:46:27.:46:31.

would be the abolition of independent reviewing officers who

:46:32.:46:34.

can be the only voice standing up for vulnerable looked after children

:46:35.:46:39.

in local authorities. If they go under these proposals how was that

:46:40.:46:44.

not taking away the rights of vulnerable children.? It is not

:46:45.:46:50.

about abolishing any strategy. He should wait to see what amendments

:46:51.:46:53.

will be tabled during the passage of this bill and I'm sure that my

:46:54.:46:57.

honourable friend will want to talk to the children's minister in more

:46:58.:47:00.

detail about his concerns and I know she will take my honourable friend's

:47:01.:47:04.

concerns very seriously, particularly given my honourable

:47:05.:47:14.

friend's background and experience. In this chapter which covers other

:47:15.:47:19.

provisions for children where we are talking about the rights of the

:47:20.:47:22.

child, I wondered whether the Minister would just consider amongst

:47:23.:47:26.

members the possibility of amending the law so that a child has the

:47:27.:47:30.

right to have both parents on its marriage registration certificate. I

:47:31.:47:37.

know this is something that has been under discussion and something my

:47:38.:47:39.

honourable friend will listen to very carefully if tabled by my right

:47:40.:47:43.

honourable friend. We're not introducing change for change sake.

:47:44.:47:50.

Existing arrangements, if they are working there will be nothing to

:47:51.:47:53.

prevent them continuing in a similar vein within the new framework set

:47:54.:47:58.

out in the bill and the local safeguarding partners will have a

:47:59.:48:02.

clear responsibility for the arrangement and will have the

:48:03.:48:05.

flexibility to change and improve them if they are not working. I

:48:06.:48:10.

should briefly mention two other provisions in chapter two, chapter

:48:11.:48:18.

11, clause 11 is largely technical and allows the government to use its

:48:19.:48:24.

powers to intervene in combined authorities whose services are

:48:25.:48:27.

failing vulnerable children and the same way the government can do with

:48:28.:48:31.

individual authorities. Clause 31 was an amendment to the Bill which

:48:32.:48:37.

will enable the Secretary of State for employment to extend

:48:38.:48:40.

whistle-blowing protection to people applying for jobs in children's

:48:41.:48:45.

social care as well as to existing employees part two of the bill sets

:48:46.:48:50.

the legal framework for the establishment of the sport regulator

:48:51.:48:54.

for all social workers in England. We know high-quality social work can

:48:55.:48:59.

transform lives and that social workers play a critical role in our

:49:00.:49:03.

society. Every day social workers deal with complex and fraught

:49:04.:49:07.

situations that require a great deal of depth of skill, of knowledge,

:49:08.:49:12.

understanding and empathy but when social workers are not able to

:49:13.:49:17.

fulfil the role competently and the contents -- the consequences can be

:49:18.:49:21.

great, so in order to protect the public social workers had to meet

:49:22.:49:24.

high standards of acceptable practice and confidence which are

:49:25.:49:28.

overseen by a regulator. The need for an improved system of regulation

:49:29.:49:32.

for the social work profession was highlighted in recent independent

:49:33.:49:36.

reviews by Sir Martin Neary and Professor David Drysdale. Our

:49:37.:49:40.

ambition through the establishment of a new bespoke regulator for

:49:41.:49:45.

social work is to continue to improve the practice of social work

:49:46.:49:48.

and raise the status of the profession. For too long the bar on

:49:49.:49:54.

standards has been too low, some graduates are leaving courses and

:49:55.:49:57.

being registered on social workers without the knowledge and skills

:49:58.:50:01.

required to do the job. That cannot be right, the new regulator will

:50:02.:50:05.

ensure following consultation with a profession that minimum standards

:50:06.:50:10.

are set at the right level. The new regulator will be a separate legal

:50:11.:50:15.

entity operating independently of ministers in its day-to-day

:50:16.:50:18.

operations. Government has always been clear that it has no intention

:50:19.:50:22.

of making decisions about the performance of individual social

:50:23.:50:26.

workers as with other independent health and social care regulators,

:50:27.:50:28.

the professional standards authority will oversee the operations of

:50:29.:50:35.

social work in England, the PSA has welcomed the revised clauses in the

:50:36.:50:39.

bill. I should add that we are planning to table further amendments

:50:40.:50:42.

regarding the national assessment and accreditation system, this will

:50:43.:50:48.

introduce and nationally recognised post-qualification specialism in

:50:49.:50:53.

child and family social work which will reinforce the focus on quality

:50:54.:50:58.

of practice two other crucial managers are not in the bill but

:50:59.:51:01.

which amendments will be tabled for a very shortly. Amendments to ensure

:51:02.:51:05.

that looked after children from England and Wales can legally be

:51:06.:51:08.

accommodated in secure children's homes in Scotland. Recent case law

:51:09.:51:16.

has cast some doubt on prison arrangements. The power to innovate,

:51:17.:51:20.

the power is a direct response to the issues raised by the Professor

:51:21.:51:25.

in her independent review of child protection, she says that trusting

:51:26.:51:30.

professional to use their judgment rather than be forced to follow

:51:31.:51:33.

unnecessary legal rules will help ensure children get the help they

:51:34.:51:37.

need when they needed. She also says that testing innovation a controlled

:51:38.:51:41.

way to establish the consequences of the change before any national

:51:42.:51:46.

roll-out is a sensible and proportionate way forward. The

:51:47.:51:49.

purpose of the power is to allow individual local authorities to test

:51:50.:51:52.

new ways of working by changing or supplying specific legislative

:51:53.:51:57.

positions within a controlled environment with a view to achieving

:51:58.:52:01.

better outcomes for children. The other place was unhappy about the

:52:02.:52:08.

clauses were included in the bill at introduction and we appreciate this

:52:09.:52:11.

is a new way of working in government and understand high some

:52:12.:52:16.

noble Lords were wary but the provisions to important just to let

:52:17.:52:19.

them drop and should emphasise this is a grassroots power, empowering

:52:20.:52:24.

local authorities to test new and better ways of working in the best

:52:25.:52:31.

interests of children. I would like to just... Just coming to the

:52:32.:52:37.

concluding elements of my comments. Local government overwhelmingly

:52:38.:52:40.

supports these measures and an national association and individual

:52:41.:52:42.

authorities have made it clear that they do not want us to lose this

:52:43.:52:46.

opportunity to allow them to test new ways of working. We have

:52:47.:52:51.

therefore reviewed and substantially revised the clauses to make sure

:52:52.:52:55.

that they avoid the issues raised in the other place and there are

:52:56.:52:57.

several notable new features we have removed the provision which allowed

:52:58.:53:03.

the body carrying local authority functions under an intervention

:53:04.:53:09.

arrangement from applying to use the power. Only local authorities can

:53:10.:53:12.

apply to use the power and if they don't wish to them that is the end

:53:13.:53:17.

of the matter. The power was never intended to be used to alter or

:53:18.:53:22.

remove children's fundamental rights or entitlements will stop its sole

:53:23.:53:27.

purpose is to allow local authorities to trial better and more

:53:28.:53:30.

practical alternatives to the sometimes very specific and overly

:53:31.:53:34.

prescriptive requirements set out in legislation in order to provide that

:53:35.:53:38.

outcomes for children. The new amendments would put this beyond

:53:39.:53:42.

doubt and also we'll set out further provision for the process

:53:43.:53:48.

surrounding power to ensure it's based on sound consultation,

:53:49.:53:51.

transparency and robust safeguards, all applications to use the power

:53:52.:53:54.

would be subject to local consultation, scrutiny by an

:53:55.:54:00.

independent panel and Parliamentary approval and progress will be

:54:01.:54:02.

monitored and these changes will be in addition to amendments the

:54:03.:54:07.

government tabled in the other place about the scrutiny process that

:54:08.:54:08.

accompanies the power. I won't give way to the honourable

:54:09.:54:17.

gentleman because he wasn't here at the start of my speech when I set

:54:18.:54:21.

out a lot of the principles around this bill. The moments are about the

:54:22.:54:27.

scrutiny process that accompanies the power and ruling out using the

:54:28.:54:31.

clause for profit. The Government is committed to working with a sector

:54:32.:54:36.

the changes that are the result of significant consultation and we

:54:37.:54:41.

believe the clauses are the safest possible way to test new approaches.

:54:42.:54:44.

I know that my honourable friend is very keen to meet and discuss with

:54:45.:54:49.

any colleagues who have concerns to discuss these provisions further. Mr

:54:50.:54:55.

Deputy Speaker, this is a bill for the welfare and prospects of

:54:56.:54:57.

vulnerable children and young people. All its measures are

:54:58.:55:02.

designed to improve the services that so many of these young people

:55:03.:55:06.

rely on and I commend this bill to the house. The question is, should

:55:07.:55:14.

the bill now be read a second time? Angela Rippon. Thank you

:55:15.:55:19.

-- let me start by saying that we welcome any attempt to improve the

:55:20.:55:28.

lives of children in care and I'm sure that is shared by all sides of

:55:29.:55:32.

the house. The challenges facing those children are significant, as

:55:33.:55:36.

is the effort needed to tackle them. The National Audit Office recently

:55:37.:55:39.

said that nationally the quality of help and protection for children is

:55:40.:55:47.

unsatisfactory and inconsistent, suggesting systematic rather than

:55:48.:55:50.

just local failure. The Government needs to take action that will

:55:51.:55:53.

address that failure within the bill rather than make it worse. I hope

:55:54.:55:58.

the Secretary of State is listening to this very important debate, if

:55:59.:56:02.

not able to attend the chamber today. A new report written for the

:56:03.:56:08.

Department for Education published only last Friday considered the

:56:09.:56:10.

options of outsourcing and developing markets in children's

:56:11.:56:17.

social services. Mr Deputy Speaker, this is privatisation by another

:56:18.:56:22.

name, and quite simply it would not just be the wrong solution but no

:56:23.:56:27.

solution at all. Following the excellent work of my noble friend 's

:56:28.:56:33.

in the other place, the clauses that would allow local authorities to

:56:34.:56:37.

delegate from their existing legal obligations are now no longer laid

:56:38.:56:41.

out in the bill before us today. But given the seriousness of such

:56:42.:56:46.

proposals and the timing of this report, I must ask the Secretary of

:56:47.:56:50.

State's department to think again and guaranteed to this house that

:56:51.:56:55.

the Government will not seek to use this bill as a vehicle to privatise

:56:56.:57:01.

children's social services. I hope the Minister can give us that

:57:02.:57:03.

assurance later because there is a good deal to welcome within this

:57:04.:57:08.

bill, from the principles of corporate parenting to the local

:57:09.:57:12.

offer for care leavers, there are steps towards helping young people

:57:13.:57:17.

in care leaving that we welcome, but I would not like to divide the house

:57:18.:57:23.

at later stages, and we at this stage seek to make progress

:57:24.:57:28.

collectively. This issue, Mr Deputy Speaker, is of vital importance to

:57:29.:57:31.

the collective good of our nations. The services with great work done on

:57:32.:57:39.

the ground by many public sector workers should be applauded, as they

:57:40.:57:41.

really do change lives every single day. I must declare an interest as

:57:42.:57:48.

my niece is one such work. Our aim collectively within this bill should

:57:49.:57:54.

be to enhance and enable this important work and privatisation and

:57:55.:57:57.

fragmentation is not the answer. Mr Deputy Speaker, our overall concern

:57:58.:58:00.

is less with what is in the bill and more with what is not. In short, it

:58:01.:58:08.

lacks the ambition to have a meaningful impact on the lives of

:58:09.:58:11.

vulnerable young people that is needed and we must seek to improve

:58:12.:58:16.

child mental health services if we are to make significant progress.

:58:17.:58:21.

For instance, Mr Deputy Speaker, the bill focuses on adoption. This is

:58:22.:58:26.

hardly a surprise, after all the Government have taken a number of

:58:27.:58:29.

steps to make it easier to adopt in the past several years, such as the

:58:30.:58:34.

education and adopting act, which received Royal assent earlier this

:58:35.:58:41.

year. We welcome measures to support adoption, but surely the Minister is

:58:42.:58:44.

aware that only one in every 20 children in care goes on to be

:58:45.:58:49.

adopted. So can he claim to the house why this bill, much like the

:58:50.:58:54.

last one, focused exclusively on adoption and does not contain

:58:55.:58:58.

provision on all other forms of care? Would it not have been an

:58:59.:59:03.

opportunity to come forward with a comprehensive strategy for children

:59:04.:59:07.

in all forms of care? Perhaps the Minister can indicate whether we

:59:08.:59:12.

might anticipate further legislation, or if he considers that

:59:13.:59:17.

no changes are needed? Similarly, we welcome the principles of corporate

:59:18.:59:21.

parenting, but there are questions as to why the bill does not go

:59:22.:59:27.

further. After all, I'm sure the Secretary of State agrees that

:59:28.:59:30.

children in care will often have complex needs, requiring a joined up

:59:31.:59:33.

approach across public services in order to get the best possible

:59:34.:59:38.

outcomes. Perhaps the Mr can explain why there is no provision on the

:59:39.:59:43.

face of the bill to facilitate ways for public services such as health

:59:44.:59:46.

and education to play a key role in ensuring good corporate parenting.

:59:47.:59:52.

These public services and others play a key role in ensuring the best

:59:53.:59:56.

outcomes for children in care, yet there is no apparent involvement for

:59:57.:59:59.

them in the corporate parent principles. Mr Deputy Speaker, the

:00:00.:00:04.

principle of the local offer is welcomed and we supported it when it

:00:05.:00:09.

was introduced for children with special educational needs and

:00:10.:00:11.

disabilities in the children and families act, since then we have

:00:12.:00:16.

seen the failings in practice with the quality of local offers varying

:00:17.:00:21.

wildly between local authorities and no minimum guarantees of quality, no

:00:22.:00:25.

statutory guidance and no certainty that the local offer would be

:00:26.:00:31.

available to all those who need it. When there are no minimum guarantees

:00:32.:00:35.

of quality, we know which areas will lose out. Overwhelmingly it will be

:00:36.:00:42.

those areas that are already facing disadvantage that will not be

:00:43.:00:46.

getting the support that they need. There are already unacceptable

:00:47.:00:51.

variations in spending on children's Gervis is between regions. In one

:00:52.:00:56.

local authority, ?4970 is spent on Children In Need and in another it

:00:57.:01:03.

is only 340. The Department for Education's own figures show that

:01:04.:01:07.

these spending inequalities fall along our all-too-familiar

:01:08.:01:14.

geographical divides. I'm very grateful to my honourable friend and

:01:15.:01:16.

I just wanted to point out that in my conversations with Hull City

:01:17.:01:21.

Council children's services department, they talked to me about

:01:22.:01:23.

the resource inequalities that they face, the very disadvantaged

:01:24.:01:28.

community that they are serving, and they are certainly not asking for

:01:29.:01:32.

powers to innovate, they are asking for proper resources to provide the

:01:33.:01:35.

services that young people need in the city. I thank my honourable

:01:36.:01:41.

friend for the point that she made and it's a significant point,

:01:42.:01:43.

because local authorities like for example mine in the north-west have

:01:44.:01:47.

faced over 50% of cuts since austerity and they are sometimes

:01:48.:01:51.

trying to deal with the most complex needs in their communities as well.

:01:52.:01:55.

So I would ask the Government to look at that again. In the

:01:56.:01:58.

south-east, spending tends to be much higher than average, but

:01:59.:02:01.

following the spending throughout local authorities it is clear that

:02:02.:02:06.

as we move into the north-west, spending is far lower. Once again,

:02:07.:02:09.

levels of spending and public services have I did fall along the

:02:10.:02:12.

North-South divide with the North losing out. In his final report as

:02:13.:02:21.

Chief inspector, Sir Michael Wilshaw has singled out the North-South

:02:22.:02:26.

divide is one of the great challenges facing our education

:02:27.:02:30.

system and our country, and only this morning that children's

:02:31.:02:33.

commissioner said that the problem was simply that parents in the North

:02:34.:02:36.

were not as ambitious as those in the South. As a parent from the

:02:37.:02:42.

North I'm sure the Minister will agree that comments such as these

:02:43.:02:45.

are neither acceptable nor are they helpful. Perhaps in an effort to

:02:46.:02:52.

ensure that all regions of our country, North and South, benefit

:02:53.:02:56.

from the local offer, the Minister will seek to ensure that there are

:02:57.:03:01.

clear local standards and -- clear locals -- national standards that

:03:02.:03:05.

all local authorities will have to meet. There are clear guidelines on

:03:06.:03:15.

how to make it accessible to how all those who need it. Can the Minister

:03:16.:03:19.

tell us why these have not been addressed before today and will the

:03:20.:03:23.

Government bring forward amendments during its passage? Mr Deputy

:03:24.:03:26.

Speaker, moving on to part two of the bill which establishes a new

:03:27.:03:30.

regulator, social work England, once again I must pay tribute to the

:03:31.:03:36.

excellent work done by the parties for their work in this area.

:03:37.:03:40.

Following their scrutiny, plans to place regulatory control with the

:03:41.:03:44.

Secretary of State were defeated. I'm sure the minister here today

:03:45.:03:48.

would acknowledge the norm that regulators are operationally

:03:49.:03:50.

independent from local Government and in this case served in the

:03:51.:03:54.

interests of children. So will he guarantee today that independence

:03:55.:03:57.

will be respected by the bill as it is ultimately agreed? While we

:03:58.:04:03.

welcome a new regulatory body, assuming it is affected and

:04:04.:04:06.

independent, there are a number of questions that remain about how it

:04:07.:04:10.

will function and what we will be seeking answers to. After all, the

:04:11.:04:14.

Government seems to want social work England to have a representative

:04:15.:04:18.

improvement and regulatory roles within the profession, yet they have

:04:19.:04:21.

not told us how this will be achieved. We have no detail on the

:04:22.:04:25.

remit of the work of the new regulator, and as it stands we will

:04:26.:04:30.

only find out in a series of regulations to be made by the

:04:31.:04:34.

Secretary of State. So can the Minister tell the house exactly what

:04:35.:04:37.

the remit role and powers of the new regulator will be? And why is it

:04:38.:04:43.

appropriate for these to be decided in secondary legislation, away from

:04:44.:04:47.

the scrutiny of the full house? After all, Mr Deputy Speaker, we

:04:48.:04:51.

have been down this path before and it was only four years ago that the

:04:52.:04:56.

general social care Council was closed. Can the Minister tell the

:04:57.:04:58.

house what will be done differently this time to ensure that we won't

:04:59.:05:03.

look back in a year or two and simply see another regulator that

:05:04.:05:08.

has been closed down? In conclusion, Mr Deputy Speaker, what is in the

:05:09.:05:12.

bill we broadly welcomed. Though we hope the Minister will have answer

:05:13.:05:16.

some of the many questions that remain. Once already in the other

:05:17.:05:24.

place the Government lands for the outsourcing and privatisation of our

:05:25.:05:28.

children's services dressed up as innovation were defeated. Nobody in

:05:29.:05:31.

the profession believes that privatisation is the answer to the

:05:32.:05:34.

immense challenges they are currently facing, nor can it

:05:35.:05:37.

alleviate the growing demand for children's services. I will give

:05:38.:05:44.

way. I'm so grateful to my honourable friend who is doing a

:05:45.:05:46.

very good job of putting the case that exists in the country, but is

:05:47.:05:50.

she concerned that the Minister really hasn't said very much at all

:05:51.:05:56.

about what innovation he expects that would require a local authority

:05:57.:06:00.

effectively to wash their hands of their statutory duty in relation to

:06:01.:06:07.

our young people and children? I absolutely thank the honourable

:06:08.:06:11.

member for his intervention and he is absolutely right in what he says

:06:12.:06:16.

in that actually most people who work in the profession believe that

:06:17.:06:20.

privatisation is absolutely the wrong answer and will not help with

:06:21.:06:24.

any form of innovation that they currently want. In fact the main

:06:25.:06:32.

thing that would help actually is investment in our community local

:06:33.:06:38.

services by local cover. So I call on the Minister to confirm today

:06:39.:06:41.

that the Minister will not seek to bring back these clauses in the

:06:42.:06:45.

bill. I'm sure he knows as well as members on this side of the house

:06:46.:06:49.

and all sides of the house do that these plans do not offer a real

:06:50.:06:52.

solution, and if he fails to take that solution on board, members on

:06:53.:06:57.

this side of the house would be far less conciliatory when we debate

:06:58.:06:58.

this bill again. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy

:06:59.:07:07.

Speaker. I think this bill actually is a very good bill. It has been

:07:08.:07:12.

amended obviously in the House of Lords and we have to consider the

:07:13.:07:14.

impact occasions of that in due course. But the central points of

:07:15.:07:18.

the bill are actually well founded and I'm particularly impressed with

:07:19.:07:23.

the theme of reflecting the work of the Munro report and improving the

:07:24.:07:27.

capacity of social workers to use their own judgment rather than

:07:28.:07:32.

simply rely on box ticking. I think that is a theme of this bill, which

:07:33.:07:36.

is appropriate and that is why I think that the regulatory structure

:07:37.:07:41.

that is going to be introduced would actually help, because it does seem

:07:42.:07:45.

to me that it is true that sort of regulatory system that the ability

:07:46.:07:51.

of making judgments would actually be made more easily. What I would

:07:52.:07:59.

say is that it is important for social workers to have a clear eye

:08:00.:08:03.

on what the professional regulation is all about. It should be of course

:08:04.:08:09.

operating at arm's-length and I think that its stressed in the bill

:08:10.:08:14.

and that is extremely useful. A register of social workers makes a

:08:15.:08:17.

lot of sense, because I think one of the things that we must do is

:08:18.:08:20.

enhance the sense of professionalism and within our social work. That is

:08:21.:08:28.

where I would have some difference with the Government in that I think

:08:29.:08:31.

that ultimately we should have a professional body for social

:08:32.:08:36.

workers. The Education Select Committee made that very clear in a

:08:37.:08:40.

recent report. We think that there is a strong case for such a body and

:08:41.:08:45.

I think there is an appetite for a body beyond just this chamber. So I

:08:46.:08:52.

would urge the Government to have a very open mind about the development

:08:53.:08:56.

of a professional body. And I would suggest that it continues to send

:08:57.:09:00.

out signals that that is what it would like to see. I'll so think

:09:01.:09:08.

that having an independent review proceedings in five years' time

:09:09.:09:13.

makes a huge amount of sense. That is a realistic timescale and I think

:09:14.:09:19.

it is appropriate that that is set out in the bill. There is one area

:09:20.:09:25.

where I think this bill really does need to have some additions or at

:09:26.:09:31.

least have some recognitions, so speak. That is in the provision of

:09:32.:09:38.

SRE. It seems to me that with over 70,000 children effectively children

:09:39.:09:45.

of the state and so many more children subject to sexual abuse and

:09:46.:09:51.

the historic sexual abuse that has gone on, our failure to address this

:09:52.:09:58.

issue of SRE front and centre is becoming increasingly obvious. So I

:09:59.:10:02.

do think that the Government really does have to go full on into a

:10:03.:10:09.

consultation process to give assurance that there is going to be

:10:10.:10:14.

something done about this most important matter. So I ask the

:10:15.:10:19.

Minister to confirm to this house that we are going to have a

:10:20.:10:23.

realistic and meaningful consultation on the introduction for

:10:24.:10:29.

statutory SRE. Yes I will give way. Thank the honourable gentleman for

:10:30.:10:33.

giving way. I'm delighted for him to raise this within this bill. Can I

:10:34.:10:37.

ask that he will back amendments by put forward by some on this side of

:10:38.:10:42.

the house to make SRE part of the safeguarding proposals for all

:10:43.:10:44.

children in this country, making sure we keep every young person

:10:45.:10:48.

saved in this country. That depends on what the amendments are and

:10:49.:10:51.

whether or not the Government actually makes it very clear that it

:10:52.:10:56.

is going to have a full-scale consultation. But I note what the

:10:57.:10:59.

honourable member has said and I'm sure that the Government has also

:11:00.:11:06.

noted what I have just said, we do need a full, meaningful and Cumbrae

:11:07.:11:09.

hence its consultation on this important matter. That's actually

:11:10.:11:16.

why five chairs of select committees sent a letter to the Secretary of

:11:17.:11:23.

State, I organised that last letter, it was from the business, energy and

:11:24.:11:28.

industrial strategy, you might well ask what exactly has that now got to

:11:29.:11:34.

do with SRE but I can make the argument if you wish me to. Women

:11:35.:11:41.

and equality is, health and home affairs. All of these committees are

:11:42.:11:48.

effectively said precisely the same thing, we need to CSR reintroduced

:11:49.:11:53.

statutorily in our schools. So that is that point I think very well

:11:54.:12:01.

made. By the five select committees. The last point I really want to make

:12:02.:12:06.

is this issue about giving latitude to local Government. A Select

:12:07.:12:10.

Committee did some work on children in care, particularly those with

:12:11.:12:15.

mental health difficulties. One of the things that was strikingly

:12:16.:12:20.

obvious when we went traffic was that by cooperating with other

:12:21.:12:26.

agencies, I having coterminous structures and by having strong

:12:27.:12:28.

leadership, Trafford was delivering some outstanding results. And I

:12:29.:12:35.

think that it is worth noting that the ability of that council to

:12:36.:12:40.

effectively benefit from strategic leadership at the top end,

:12:41.:12:44.

operational leadership within the structures themselves and a

:12:45.:12:54.

coterminous nature, not only are their own organisations and related

:12:55.:12:57.

agencies but also with the police force, was extraordinary beneficial

:12:58.:13:02.

or working practices and the way in which decisions were made and

:13:03.:13:08.

responses given to issues connected to children in care and children at

:13:09.:13:13.

risk. So I think the Government is right to move down towards giving

:13:14.:13:19.

local Government more latitude in the way that it formulates its

:13:20.:13:27.

structures to deliver outcomes. In short, I think this bill has a lot

:13:28.:13:32.

to be said for it. I think it is critical that we acknowledge that

:13:33.:13:36.

some form of professional body would be good for social workers and

:13:37.:13:41.

social work generally. I think that the absence of SRE is a pity, I

:13:42.:13:45.

think it's important that the Government gives that firm

:13:46.:13:48.

commitment which I have asked for, and I think generally speaking the

:13:49.:13:51.

Government is on the right direction in connection with local Government.

:13:52.:13:58.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I am aware that very few clauses in this

:13:59.:14:07.

bill affect Scotland that as a member of the Education Select

:14:08.:14:10.

Committee, I may have some points of interest and I may be able to help

:14:11.:14:15.

this bill become even better. When a child or young person can't live at

:14:16.:14:20.

home, we all owe them to make the process of finding a new stable

:14:21.:14:23.

family as efficient and straightforward as possible. There

:14:24.:14:29.

are some clauses, close one for example in this ill, that I note

:14:30.:14:39.

create seven core parenting principles that local authorities

:14:40.:14:43.

must have regard of and I would question the Minister as to why

:14:44.:14:48.

these aren't mandatory. The joint committee on human rights have said

:14:49.:14:51.

they considered the arguments and the effort for and against

:14:52.:14:56.

introducing a statutory duty of public authorities in England

:14:57.:15:01.

requiring them to have regard to the rights of the children in the United

:15:02.:15:03.

Nations Convention under the rights of the child, and the exercise

:15:04.:15:11.

equivalent to the duties already introduced in England and Wales. If

:15:12.:15:15.

England and Wales can introduce this duty, I find it difficult to

:15:16.:15:18.

understand why it isn't going to be mandatory in England. The joint

:15:19.:15:24.

committee also said they welcome parliament presenting this bill and

:15:25.:15:27.

actually making sure that there is such a duty. It really is important

:15:28.:15:32.

that children are at the focus and the heart of any bill that is

:15:33.:15:39.

introduced in this Parliament. We really need to look at how children

:15:40.:15:45.

are affected by the legislation, not just by the Department for education

:15:46.:15:51.

but across the board. In Scotland the First Minister has said that

:15:52.:15:56.

people have experienced the care system and that will be the driving

:15:57.:16:01.

force in a review of how Scotland treats its looked after children,

:16:02.:16:04.

and this is actually this mandatory duty in action. We also in Scotland

:16:05.:16:12.

really want to move forward and listen to young people. In fact, we

:16:13.:16:17.

are looking at extending what is happening in Scotland to people who

:16:18.:16:22.

have been in care and are going through the process of becoming

:16:23.:16:27.

adults who stand on their home. It's good to see that this bill is

:16:28.:16:31.

actually looking at what happens to children after they leave care. Can

:16:32.:16:36.

I ask the Minister to look at what we do in Scotland? Because we are

:16:37.:16:42.

moving forward at a far better placed than we are here in England

:16:43.:16:47.

and Wales. A former children's minister in Scotland said children

:16:48.:16:49.

don't need a system that just stops things happening to them. While we

:16:50.:16:57.

have safeguards, wheels and need a system that makes things happen to

:16:58.:17:02.

them. A system that supports them to become the people they can be,

:17:03.:17:06.

fostering a sense of belonging. I'm sure the Minister would agree with

:17:07.:17:10.

that, that this should be a guiding principle into any legislation that

:17:11.:17:15.

we bring forward. Can I ask the minister what steps the Government

:17:16.:17:18.

are going to take to respond to the UN committee on the rights of the

:17:19.:17:23.

child's recommendations early this year and can they give a timeline on

:17:24.:17:27.

when they plan to publish their official response. Can I also ask

:17:28.:17:30.

what further steps the Government is going to take to ensure the policy

:17:31.:17:35.

developed across Whitehall has children's rights at the heart of

:17:36.:17:43.

it? One part of the bill, section 31, affects Scotland and that is to

:17:44.:17:47.

do with whistle-blowing. The Scottish Government act knowledges

:17:48.:17:51.

and respect the need for whistle-blowing and it believes that

:17:52.:17:56.

the procedure should be in place across the public and private

:17:57.:17:58.

sectors to support staff in raising any concerns to ensure people can

:17:59.:18:03.

work in a safe and secure environment. In Scotland, in the

:18:04.:18:08.

NHS, the Scottish Government believes it is very important that

:18:09.:18:11.

workers feel they can raise any concerns they may have about patient

:18:12.:18:15.

safety and malpractice, because it helps to improve the health service

:18:16.:18:19.

and we believe this practice should not only take place in the health

:18:20.:18:25.

service but across all professions, especially in the social work

:18:26.:18:29.

sector, given how important the protection of children is. We

:18:30.:18:33.

actually welcome this part and we are really keen that the Government

:18:34.:18:38.

are seeing this through. In Scotland, social work is regulated

:18:39.:18:44.

and again, I would commend asking the Minister to look at the Scottish

:18:45.:18:50.

system, indeed when the Education Select Committee spoke to social

:18:51.:18:53.

workers and social worker representatives as part of an

:18:54.:18:56.

inquiry by the chair the honourable member for Stroud, one of the first

:18:57.:19:01.

thing is said to us was, look at the Scottish system. I would absolutely

:19:02.:19:06.

encouragement esters to do that. In Scotland, we have the social work,

:19:07.:19:15.

the social services Council, which regulates it and to which all social

:19:16.:19:19.

workers have to belong. I'm very pleased England is going to be

:19:20.:19:23.

moving forward in this regard. I share the honourable member for

:19:24.:19:27.

Ashton-under-Lyne's apprehensions about creeping privatisation in the

:19:28.:19:32.

care sector, especially where it relates to children. It is

:19:33.:19:39.

absolutely imperative that we all looked after children, especially

:19:40.:19:43.

those who are not with their own families and their own parents, in

:19:44.:19:48.

fact we all have a right to protect and look after children. It is an

:19:49.:19:54.

imperative on all of us and it is a duties shared amongst all of us in

:19:55.:20:00.

society not just professionals, again, by whistle-blowing, it is

:20:01.:20:05.

important. While this bill is important for what is going to

:20:06.:20:09.

happen in England, it is taken in the context of child poverty which

:20:10.:20:14.

is actually, according to the interview -- Institute for financial

:20:15.:20:22.

studies are, Institute for financial services, to say that child poverty

:20:23.:20:28.

in the UK is projected to rise by 8% by 2020. This actually makes it even

:20:29.:20:33.

more important that we get it right, as many more children may be drawn

:20:34.:20:38.

into the care system as a result of the austerity programme that is

:20:39.:20:44.

still ongoing in this country and across the UK. Can I please then

:20:45.:20:50.

asked the Minister to look at Scotland, to look at what we're

:20:51.:20:54.

doing there. We're not perfect, we're not doing everything right,

:20:55.:21:02.

but we have at the heart of our system children, their experiences

:21:03.:21:06.

and we are listening to them. I please ask the Minister to look at

:21:07.:21:19.

Scotland and Wales doing very good childcare work across-the-board.

:21:20.:21:25.

Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I first declare an interest... Can I also

:21:26.:21:35.

welcome the bill, in most part and that Italy as it stands without

:21:36.:21:39.

certain parts which I alluded to earlier. -- and particularly as it

:21:40.:21:47.

stands. We spend far too little time in this house highlighting some of

:21:48.:21:50.

the excellent practices in highly adverse conditions that we expect

:21:51.:21:59.

our social workers to do. I have always referred to social workers as

:22:00.:22:03.

our fourth emergency service, and I'm very proud... One moment...

:22:04.:22:08.

Alongside the lady opposite to be a patron of the social worker of the

:22:09.:22:14.

year award and I attended the dinner a few weeks ago where there were

:22:15.:22:17.

some fantastic examples of dedication and hard work, skill and

:22:18.:22:21.

expertise on display, none of which alas made it into the mainstream

:22:22.:22:25.

media, which is so often the case. I will give way. I think the

:22:26.:22:29.

honourable member for giving way. Will he agree with me that the

:22:30.:22:35.

challenges facing social workers are particularly intense, not just with

:22:36.:22:40.

the immense reductions in funding but also the fast changing

:22:41.:22:49.

Government initiative changing itis that seems to attract itself to the

:22:50.:22:57.

social work area? They are certainly under pressure, but that initiative

:22:58.:23:01.

itis has too some point gone into reverse not least through the

:23:02.:23:07.

shrinking together of the social work practice which when this

:23:08.:23:10.

Government came into office amounted to more than 750 pages. The social

:23:11.:23:16.

workers were spending all of their time checking what it said in the

:23:17.:23:19.

rule book, looking over their shoulders, ticking the box, rather

:23:20.:23:22.

than being allowed to get on with the business of being social

:23:23.:23:29.

workers, eyeballing the families and children they were there to protect

:23:30.:23:33.

and work with. That was certainly very important and again with the

:23:34.:23:38.

support of Professor Munro, a very important initiative which tries to

:23:39.:23:42.

take away a lock of the administrative burdens on social

:23:43.:23:44.

workers, notwithstanding the other pressures and workers that there

:23:45.:23:50.

are. I'm also very proud, Mr Deputy Speaker, for the work that my party

:23:51.:23:54.

did in this area, starting with the commissioning is on social worker

:23:55.:23:57.

which I chaired back in 2007, which I'm delighted my honourable friend

:23:58.:24:01.

the member for Portsmouth South who played such an important role in

:24:02.:24:04.

that commission produced a document which is as relevant today as it was

:24:05.:24:08.

then, called no more blame game, the future for children's social

:24:09.:24:13.

workers. The problem is that all too often children are still the subject

:24:14.:24:16.

of the blame game particularly in the tabloid press, where it would

:24:17.:24:21.

appear that it's social workers who abuse, who murder young and

:24:22.:24:27.

vulnerable children, but of course it's not. They are there to try and

:24:28.:24:31.

protect those vulnerable children and it is parents and carers and

:24:32.:24:35.

others who commit those foul acts and yet you wouldn't believe it if

:24:36.:24:38.

you read some of the reports and the way of the disdainful way that too

:24:39.:24:42.

many people still look at our social workers.

:24:43.:24:55.

In 2010 the manifesto commitment child protection back to the front

:24:56.:25:00.

line. I'm very pleased and proud that the first review initiated by

:25:01.:25:06.

the Department for Education after the election was not to do with

:25:07.:25:11.

schools or education matters, the Munro review into child protection.

:25:12.:25:21.

I was slightly surprised that the Minister was so conclusively playing

:25:22.:25:32.

an aide Professor Monroe because I appointed Professor Monroe on the

:25:33.:25:35.

problem is that a lot of his 15 recommendations very pertinent this

:25:36.:25:43.

is to be implemented but they don't involve taking away those basic

:25:44.:25:45.

duties. That does not include the rehashing

:25:46.:26:12.

Azzam al-Ahmed why I the comments on the Minister for schools. It's a

:26:13.:26:15.

shame because after the good work done by the Lord's we wear promised

:26:16.:26:17.

a period of reflection. I would caution him to extend that

:26:18.:26:40.

reflection before they hurry into repeating which was clearly a

:26:41.:26:44.

mistake and the majority of the House of Lords and the great

:26:45.:26:48.

majority of important organisations involved in child protection were

:26:49.:26:51.

not in favour and made their feelings very clear. Let's be clear,

:26:52.:26:58.

a lot of good things around child protection have happened under this

:26:59.:27:04.

government, the reform of fostering and adoption regulations has helped

:27:05.:27:12.

to fostering, Fosters and adopters and help children being fostered and

:27:13.:27:15.

more children going on to be adopted as well. More to be done but a lot

:27:16.:27:20.

of progress has been made in the last six years. We have now are much

:27:21.:27:24.

more appropriate and rigorous inspection system from Ofsted. We

:27:25.:27:30.

have the Munro review which has given rise to a lot of innovation in

:27:31.:27:34.

the way we go about child protection. We have the child sexual

:27:35.:27:40.

exploitation action plan which was published back in November 20 11th,

:27:41.:27:45.

well before Savill came on the scene so publicly and made such a headline

:27:46.:27:52.

issue and we have never seen the light of that. We had staying put

:27:53.:27:58.

although I feel it is underfunded in its effectiveness in certain local

:27:59.:28:01.

authorities with the extension of the right to a personal adviser to

:28:02.:28:08.

the age of 25 and are due to local authorities to stay in touch, good

:28:09.:28:12.

things being innovated in this bill, is staying close until the age of

:28:13.:28:16.

21, these are all things which offer support vulnerable children in the

:28:17.:28:22.

care system at the most fragile time in their lives whereas before at the

:28:23.:28:27.

age of 18 or even 16 they faced a cliff edge coming out of care into

:28:28.:28:31.

the big wide world without the help and support and the safety net that

:28:32.:28:36.

so many of these children and young people need. The honourable member

:28:37.:28:39.

is been extremely generous in giving away a second time and would he

:28:40.:28:44.

agree with me that much of this could be quite academic if funding

:28:45.:28:52.

doesn't accompany these very exciting new developments? Funding

:28:53.:28:55.

is of course part of the element but of course we can do a lot better

:28:56.:29:02.

with existing funds although the report showed funding of honourable

:29:03.:29:06.

children had actually gone up as well but certainly what was not

:29:07.:29:09.

working properly is when social workers were spending through the

:29:10.:29:14.

ICS system another very bureaucratic system up to 80% of their time in

:29:15.:29:18.

front of a computer filling in forms to do with child protection rather

:29:19.:29:22.

than getting out there, dealing with those children face-to-face, that

:29:23.:29:26.

was a huge waste of resources but more importantly a huge waste of

:29:27.:29:30.

opportunity to deal more effectively and early on with those children who

:29:31.:29:33.

really did need to have the support and often intervention and social

:29:34.:29:40.

workers in particular. Despite all of these innovations we still need

:29:41.:29:45.

to do an awful lot better for vulnerable children and children in

:29:46.:29:48.

the care system and for our care leavers. It is a fact that 40%,

:29:49.:29:56.

almost half of our care leavers aged 19-21 are classed as leaks. 40% of

:29:57.:30:05.

them are in custody, two thirds of children in the care system have

:30:06.:30:11.

special educational needs, half of them with the diagnosable mental

:30:12.:30:15.

disorder, the outcomes for educational achievement achieving a-

:30:16.:30:28.

see is still in its teams compared with the peer population now of over

:30:29.:30:34.

60% achieving those sorts of grades. I welcome the bill, particularly

:30:35.:30:38.

some of the corporate principles and it would be interesting to see how

:30:39.:30:44.

they work in practice which apply to physical and mental health, which is

:30:45.:30:47.

so important. Although this government again has done a lot to

:30:48.:30:51.

raise the profile of mental health particularly among children and

:30:52.:30:55.

young people has injected a ?1.4 billion into that area, the problem

:30:56.:31:00.

is that not nearly enough of it and then that is not enough in itself is

:31:01.:31:04.

getting through to the front line to help both children and young people

:31:05.:31:08.

who so desperately needed when they need it. And where they needed as

:31:09.:31:14.

well. These are challenging times. The report from the National Audit

:31:15.:31:23.

Office. The report on children in need of protection flagged up some

:31:24.:31:29.

worrying observations. Too often the way we look after vulnerable

:31:30.:31:35.

children is postcode lottery. We are still so poor at sharing best

:31:36.:31:41.

practice in this country. Yet a child in need, a child in care, a

:31:42.:31:46.

child in desperate need of protection should be dealt with no

:31:47.:31:51.

differently whether they are in Durham, Worthing or in Exeter or

:31:52.:31:54.

anywhere else throughout the United Kingdom for that matter. Still,

:31:55.:32:02.

since the surge that we saw particularly since the horrific case

:32:03.:32:08.

of baby Peter, still the numbers of children coming into the care system

:32:09.:32:13.

is rising. Now in excess of 70,000 children in the care system in

:32:14.:32:18.

England, the highest since 1985. We were in a very different environment

:32:19.:32:24.

that children tended to come into. I don't know whether we need to take

:32:25.:32:32.

more children into care. We need to take the right children into care at

:32:33.:32:37.

the right time. Give them the right support and services if they cannot

:32:38.:32:40.

be supported living with their families or other kinship carers.

:32:41.:32:46.

One of the things I'm proud of, the initiative the government took over

:32:47.:32:51.

promoting adoption which had fallen into neglect after the good work

:32:52.:33:03.

done in the adoption Bill. Still there is a very big grey space

:33:04.:33:09.

following the Mundy judgment. That should not have happened.

:33:10.:33:26.

Through too many hoops to which took too long to get adopted. A local

:33:27.:33:36.

authority level in adoption but we needed to bring onside

:33:37.:33:40.

contemporaneously and in sympathy those in the legal profession. They

:33:41.:33:46.

felt put the pawn that they were how to run cases in the courts.

:33:47.:34:00.

We have seen a reversal in adoption numbers and we hope to see a reverse

:34:01.:34:07.

back and adoption offers a best chance of a second childhood and a

:34:08.:34:11.

second possibility of being brought up in a safe fun loving family.

:34:12.:34:25.

Does he share the concern that many adoptions are taking place with the

:34:26.:34:32.

younger children where it's far more difficult to place order children

:34:33.:34:35.

and we have to do more to promote the benefits of adoption at a later

:34:36.:34:43.

age. It's always been the case, shiny squeaky new babies are much

:34:44.:34:47.

more attractive to people who want to adopt than problematic teenagers

:34:48.:34:52.

who have been through all the trials and tribulations of broken families

:34:53.:34:58.

perhaps abuse, neglect, mental health problems and behavioural

:34:59.:35:00.

disorders and have been pushed from pillar to post in the care system

:35:01.:35:04.

and those are the children we have more slowdown. Bringing in adoption

:35:05.:35:13.

scorecards is not just about approving the numbers but

:35:14.:35:17.

concentrating on those harder to adopt children, older children,

:35:18.:35:21.

large sibling groups, children from black, minority, ethnic communities

:35:22.:35:25.

who were too often at the back of the queue when it came to adopting

:35:26.:35:29.

and I'm glad to see in recent years disproportionately those children

:35:30.:35:31.

have found themselves more likely to get adopted than they were, still

:35:32.:35:36.

not enough and still a lot to be done but that was absolutely the

:35:37.:35:40.

right focus to bring in over the last few years. Another thing I'm

:35:41.:35:46.

concerned about has we now seem despite all the good work that the

:35:47.:35:51.

government did on paralleling the system in Holland for health

:35:52.:35:57.

visitors have now lost 722 health visitors and we seen a 13% decrease

:35:58.:35:59.

in school nurses. Too often their positions are taken

:36:00.:36:32.

by temporary social workers and social workers particularly when

:36:33.:36:33.

dealing with child protection is an area where you need to forge

:36:34.:36:37.

relationships empathetic relationships with those vulnerable

:36:38.:36:42.

children and families that we are to look after and we are being pushed

:36:43.:36:46.

from pillar to post, from one social worker to another so different and

:36:47.:36:51.

dependent reviewing Officer for whoever it may be, it only

:36:52.:36:55.

accentuates the instability and the vulnerability of those children. And

:36:56.:37:00.

I do worry at times, when still even in this place we are too quick to

:37:01.:37:06.

point the finger of blame at the social workers because a child has

:37:07.:37:13.

been brutally assaulted or into many cases killed the hands of carers and

:37:14.:37:23.

maybe parents and close relatives. There are social workers who are not

:37:24.:37:26.

doing their job properly, social workers who are not up to the job

:37:27.:37:29.

and frankly should not be in social work and they should be removed from

:37:30.:37:33.

it. They are a small minority and they should not make the rest of her

:37:34.:37:39.

excellent hard work in dedicated social worker feel constantly that

:37:40.:37:51.

they are the ones to blame. They are not in the vast majority of cases

:37:52.:37:58.

part of the problem. At the heart of the original bill, eviscerated

:37:59.:38:06.

clauses 29-33 which are about to make a reappearance it would now

:38:07.:38:09.

seem unfortunately. At the heart of the original bill, the radical new

:38:10.:38:15.

proposals to test new ways of working under the guise of promoting

:38:16.:38:24.

innovation. As I said earlier, I'm afraid those clauses were not

:38:25.:38:29.

remotely welcome by the vast majority of people who are involved

:38:30.:38:34.

in the whole field of child protection. They were opposed by the

:38:35.:38:41.

British Association of social workers, the ceilidh was

:38:42.:38:44.

Association, the children's rights Alliance, the government's appointed

:38:45.:38:51.

adoption provider, the fostering network, the NSPCC, action for

:38:52.:38:56.

children and in various pulls something like 90% of working social

:38:57.:39:03.

workers did not support them either. It was hardly surprising as well

:39:04.:39:10.

when they came out of the blue. No consultation on absolutely

:39:11.:39:14.

fundamental changes to the way we apply duties of care to vulnerable

:39:15.:39:22.

children in this country. I pay tribute to the House of Lords and in

:39:23.:39:29.

particular to the noble Lord. For putting forward the amendments that

:39:30.:39:36.

saw those clauses taken out of the bill. Lord Ramsbottom referred to

:39:37.:39:41.

clause 29, nothing less than the usurpation of the proper

:39:42.:39:45.

Parliamentary process and he asked how the courts are expected to

:39:46.:39:51.

respond when local authority areas are disadvantaged by the arbitrarily

:39:52.:40:09.

nature of applying the law. We cannot have competition between

:40:10.:40:14.

different ways of looking at vulnerable children. Some of which

:40:15.:40:18.

will not work and some of which might. Every child needs the

:40:19.:40:24.

protection of the law as set out by Parliament, not subject to a

:40:25.:40:29.

postcode lottery as is convenient for certain local authorities. Lord

:40:30.:40:39.

Lowell in the other place as it's perfectly possible to test different

:40:40.:40:43.

ways of working within existing legislative framework and it makes

:40:44.:40:49.

no sense to get rid of the duty. The squeeze on funding which other

:40:50.:40:54.

members have mentioned and is inevitable at the moment although

:40:55.:40:58.

it's not desirable has meant that in too many, because of that disastrous

:40:59.:41:04.

way the last government run the economy to the ground. In too many

:41:05.:41:13.

cases local authorities are only providing what is their duty and

:41:14.:41:18.

additional services are no longer on the agenda at all. Taking away that

:41:19.:41:22.

duty means some of these fundamental things could not happen in the

:41:23.:41:28.

future. Clause 29 as it was would have allowed local authorities to

:41:29.:41:30.

request exemptions from the statutory duties in social care,

:41:31.:41:36.

every act of Parliament and every subordinate piece of legislation

:41:37.:41:40.

concerned with children's social care from 1933 onwards would have

:41:41.:41:45.

potentially affected. The proposed mechanism for exemption orders was

:41:46.:41:49.

to be statutory instruments which would have added over enormous bias

:41:50.:41:55.

to the Secretary of State and the Department for Education itself and

:41:56.:41:58.

I'm afraid the Minister for schools is wrong, the DfEE acknowledge that

:41:59.:42:02.

this part of the bill directly concerns children's fundamental

:42:03.:42:10.

rights. How can vulnerable children challenge the lack of services? I

:42:11.:42:14.

give the example, one of the many examples in the House of lords of

:42:15.:42:18.

independent reviewing officers, I'm a big fan of them and it is a bit of

:42:19.:42:22.

the postcode lottery but the role is to stand up to be the voice and to

:42:23.:42:25.

be the advocate of children who are not getting the services to which

:42:26.:42:29.

they are entitled, which they need from local authorities. If they are

:42:30.:42:34.

not available because an exemption has been applied for and granted.

:42:35.:42:43.

Where is that child to go? Not just them, there are key legal

:42:44.:42:51.

protections which exist in the form of. Protections for disabled

:42:52.:42:55.

children placed away from home, leaving care entitlements and

:42:56.:43:01.

complaints procedures. All of these could be granted an exemption and

:43:02.:43:05.

could disappear from fundamental rights which we apply to protect

:43:06.:43:10.

vulnerable children now. This would be the first time in the history of

:43:11.:43:14.

children's welfare that legislation made for all vulnerable children and

:43:15.:43:17.

young people could be this applied in a particular area, this is a very

:43:18.:43:22.

rare proposal that should at least have warranted a Green paper and a

:43:23.:43:26.

white paper and proper consultation but there was absolutely none. Not

:43:27.:43:33.

surprising that the NSPCC and action for children describe this as the

:43:34.:43:40.

place that the government is making sense considerable risks despite

:43:41.:43:42.

numerous conversations the evidence for the need for this power remains

:43:43.:43:46.

unconvincing and does not justify the potential risks for suspending

:43:47.:43:51.

primary Revol - legislation. If the causes are reintroduced it will pave

:43:52.:43:55.

the way for significant and dangerous changes to children in

:43:56.:44:03.

social care which would jeopardise hard-fought children's rights

:44:04.:44:05.

spanning decades. How would the pilots for these actually be

:44:06.:44:08.

monitored? Who and how would we monitor whether children were still

:44:09.:44:14.

safe and what actual results it was happening for those children. It's

:44:15.:44:20.

no surprise that only one in ten practising social workers surveyed

:44:21.:44:25.

by Unison actually thought this was a good idea. That is why I have

:44:26.:44:34.

severe reservations if this bill is going to see the return of those

:44:35.:44:40.

clauses. If we can return to the Munro review, what it did was to

:44:41.:44:44.

take away a lot of the bureaucracy from social workers. It gave

:44:45.:44:49.

flexibilities on the timings, on how children needed to receive

:44:50.:44:54.

assessments and how they could prioritise. Basically it gave

:44:55.:44:59.

greater powers and confidence back to social workers to be able to use

:45:00.:45:04.

their professional judgments to do the best thing they thought was in

:45:05.:45:08.

the interests of vulnerable children, sometimes they would get

:45:09.:45:13.

it wrong. What I want to do and what the Munro review was all about is

:45:14.:45:15.

giving social workers the confidence to make a mistake, hopefully not

:45:16.:45:21.

often but to do it for the very best of reasons, not simply because

:45:22.:45:25.

that's what it says on page 117 of the rule book and you needed to tick

:45:26.:45:29.

the boxes, that's not what social workers Oliver, it's not a science,

:45:30.:45:31.

it's a con placated and challenging job. If you're going to give

:45:32.:45:37.

professionals those flexibilities, if you're going to allow them to act

:45:38.:45:42.

in different and innovative ways because they think that's the best

:45:43.:45:47.

way of looking after vulnerable children, you don't and you don't

:45:48.:45:51.

need to take away the statutory duties of the local authorities who

:45:52.:45:55.

are a little copper parents for those children so the new ways

:45:56.:46:00.

actually don't have to abide by the basic fundamental duties that you're

:46:01.:46:03.

doing the right thing and looking after those vulnerable children.

:46:04.:46:08.

Finally, can I look at a few of the specific clauses within the bill and

:46:09.:46:12.

ask the Minister some questions which I hope you'll be able to

:46:13.:46:18.

referred to in his summing up. Clause one which is about corporate

:46:19.:46:21.

parenting principles which I welcome but it's not clear exactly what the

:46:22.:46:28.

amount to in practice. Are they in addition to section 23 commitments

:46:29.:46:34.

of the children's act of 1989 or are they actually replacing them? I've

:46:35.:46:38.

used examples where I welcome promoting the physical and mental

:46:39.:46:42.

health, promoting high aspirations, securing the best outcomes for those

:46:43.:46:46.

children and young people, nobody possibly could vote against such

:46:47.:46:55.

things. Where a former relevant child to whom this section applies

:46:56.:46:58.

is not receiving advice and support, the local authority much must offer

:46:59.:47:02.

advice and support at least once every 12 months. Once every 12

:47:03.:47:08.

months is not going to go far for a vulnerable child who needs intensive

:47:09.:47:14.

help. Section eight talks about personal advisers. Too many children

:47:15.:47:18.

in care that I met and children leaving care have never heard of

:47:19.:47:23.

personal advisers let alone the with their own personal adviser actually

:47:24.:47:30.

is. In" Might we are giving this extraordinary power to local

:47:31.:47:33.

authority and I quote, a local authority in England may do anything

:47:34.:47:37.

else that they consider appropriate with the view to promoting education

:47:38.:47:44.

of relevant children educated in their area. Why do we require that

:47:45.:47:49.

thing in legislation, it strikes me that a bit too much of this is a bit

:47:50.:47:54.

too mushy and a bit to fill of cotton wool. Too many vague

:47:55.:47:59.

assumptions that actually practice particularly with funding pressures,

:48:00.:48:02.

particular were duties taken away won't actually lead to a raw beans

:48:03.:48:10.

in practice. On the subject of what should be on the bill in terms of

:48:11.:48:12.

duties, does my honourable friend share my concern that the primary

:48:13.:48:17.

focus is the duty of care to children and also the issue of women

:48:18.:48:23.

and mothers who will end up having other children who end up in care

:48:24.:48:27.

and other children and the number of successive children and is a need

:48:28.:48:30.

for the local authority to have a responsibility for those vulnerable

:48:31.:48:36.

children who may have been victims of a chorus of relationship. The

:48:37.:48:39.

sooner that there is some intervention and some focus of care

:48:40.:48:43.

the better to avoid subsequent issues and subsequent children and

:48:44.:48:47.

costs and concerns for all. My honourable friend is right in his

:48:48.:48:51.

great expertise and we cannot look at vulnerable children in isolation

:48:52.:48:55.

and we need to look at the family problems and the family holistically

:48:56.:48:59.

and Freddie come from and there were some really good examples and I do

:49:00.:49:02.

hope that the Minister is going to stick to his word and provide the

:49:03.:49:09.

funding for things such as the family drug and alcohol Court set up

:49:10.:49:14.

by the excellent Nick Crichton, a fantastic family district judge.

:49:15.:49:21.

Whereby a mother often the single mother, at risk of losing a child to

:49:22.:49:27.

the care system, often because lots of substance abuse, maybe an abusive

:49:28.:49:31.

partner, is given a very clear choice of an intensive package that

:49:32.:49:35.

will help that mum, maybe both parents back onto the straight and

:49:36.:49:39.

narrow so they are able to bring up their own child and it's a tough and

:49:40.:49:42.

challenging exercise as well. If they're able to do that then that'll

:49:43.:49:46.

family is put back together and the child stays which is the best

:49:47.:49:50.

outcome but if not then that child will head for care. I have seen and

:49:51.:49:54.

sat in court and might honourable friend who will speak shortly sat in

:49:55.:50:00.

court as well seeing mums who had six, seven, eight children taken

:50:01.:50:04.

into the care system and you have to tackle the root of a problem. Why is

:50:05.:50:09.

it? Poor parenting herself that she doesn't know how to be a parent,

:50:10.:50:18.

what do we and troubled families to become a fit parent. If not then

:50:19.:50:23.

that child must go to a safe family elsewhere who can give a child a

:50:24.:50:30.

second chance of a beneficial and happy upbringing. A few other quick

:50:31.:50:35.

points I can make, unaware that there are not too many speakers for

:50:36.:50:39.

the debate so it's an opportunity to collaborate on some of these

:50:40.:50:42.

important point is a little longer than one is normally allowed to buy

:50:43.:50:45.

the chair but I know how generous you are in these matters of great

:50:46.:50:51.

interest to you. In clause five it's about designation of a member of

:50:52.:50:57.

staff at school having responsibility for education and

:50:58.:50:59.

achievement of children in the care system. This is a good initiative

:51:00.:51:06.

but it already exists for children with caring responsibilities for

:51:07.:51:10.

young carers and that doesn't work in practice. This is a good idea but

:51:11.:51:14.

it has to have some teeth to it and mean something that those children

:51:15.:51:19.

in the care system have special attention from the designated

:51:20.:51:22.

teacher who understands the particular needs of children in the

:51:23.:51:27.

care system, often subjected bullying, mental health problems and

:51:28.:51:31.

anything else but it's not just got to be a cause and bill in paper,

:51:32.:51:36.

it's got to be working in practice. On the child safeguarding practice

:51:37.:51:42.

review panels, I think there are some good points here. I have some

:51:43.:51:45.

concerns about the independence of the panel, but certainly when we

:51:46.:51:50.

gave a commitment for the 2010 election that we would publish

:51:51.:51:56.

serious case reviews, opposed by the party opposite, I have to say, but

:51:57.:52:00.

now has become the norm, one of my concerns was also about the calibre

:52:01.:52:06.

of the people producing those reports and the quality of some of

:52:07.:52:12.

them. Effectively they were not properly monitored, only monitored

:52:13.:52:15.

on a local basis and I actually put forward the idea some time ago that

:52:16.:52:18.

there should be a national body that can oversee the quality, a national

:52:19.:52:23.

register of those authors of serious case reviews with continuous

:52:24.:52:28.

professional development requirements, so he did have to have

:52:29.:52:30.

some training and update their training because before now anybody

:52:31.:52:35.

effectively could apply to be the author of a serious case review and

:52:36.:52:39.

we need to regulate that important area rather better. In subsection

:52:40.:52:48.

for its as the panel must publish the report unless it is

:52:49.:52:52.

inappropriate to do so. Having secured that with the important

:52:53.:52:55.

principle of transparency in a series case reviews were published

:52:56.:53:00.

and only seen by a few people locally and officials in the

:53:01.:53:02.

Department for Education if we are lucky, it was really important that

:53:03.:53:07.

those serious case reviews, other than in those circumstances where it

:53:08.:53:12.

could be detrimental to surviving children or families involved, and

:53:13.:53:15.

there are some exceptional circumstances that should be the

:53:16.:53:18.

case, those serious case reviews should be published, the lessons

:53:19.:53:23.

learned to see the how they can be applied elsewhere and this new

:53:24.:53:27.

review panel is an exercise in doing so and disseminating best practice

:53:28.:53:32.

rather better. I very much support that and I'd like more details on

:53:33.:53:37.

how that is going to work. Then the section around safeguarding partners

:53:38.:53:42.

which appeared to be replacing the local safeguarding children is board

:53:43.:53:48.

which are really important feature of bringing together local agencies

:53:49.:53:54.

to make sure we have got workable solutions, partnerships in place,

:53:55.:53:57.

particularly to deal with child sexual exploitation at the moment.

:53:58.:54:02.

So we need to be convinced how these are different to local safeguarding

:54:03.:54:11.

boards, how they will be funded in particular, and the section hearing

:54:12.:54:14.

clause 19 around funding says that the safeguarding partners for the

:54:15.:54:19.

local authority area in England may make payments towards expenditure of

:54:20.:54:24.

these, by contributing to a fund or making payments directly and

:54:25.:54:29.

relevant agencies, may make payments, the problem with them at

:54:30.:54:34.

the moment Mr Deputy Speaker, is that not all the partners are

:54:35.:54:38.

pulling their weight and into many cases, they are not turning up the

:54:39.:54:43.

table are not to fund the work and too often it falls to the local

:54:44.:54:47.

authorities, the default partner to pick up too much of the tabs over

:54:48.:54:51.

going to put these on a statutory basis, can we make sure that the

:54:52.:54:55.

funding contribution and the participation, the active

:54:56.:54:58.

participation for the relevant partners is absolutely essential and

:54:59.:55:03.

laid out very clearly and unequivocally. I'm also concerned,

:55:04.:55:08.

it says the safeguarding partners, in England may agree that the areas

:55:09.:55:12.

are to be treated as a single area. How big can they be? It is important

:55:13.:55:17.

that we have local safeguarding children's boards that are able to

:55:18.:55:22.

come up with local safeguarding plans, local plans for child sexual

:55:23.:55:26.

exploitation, relevant to Rotherham with the particular problems in

:55:27.:55:29.

Rotherham or whatever. If we are going to be looking after huge great

:55:30.:55:35.

areas they will surely have their affects dilutive dinky hotspots.

:55:36.:55:41.

When it talks about also having cross-border constabulary,

:55:42.:55:44.

cooperation as well. These are very large areas and I'm concerned about

:55:45.:55:48.

the size of the areas that these new boards could become. I think finally

:55:49.:55:57.

Mr Deputy Speaker, on the parts about the new social work England

:55:58.:56:04.

body. I think we need to improve the regulation of social workers, I'm

:56:05.:56:08.

not sure if this is the right way to do it, I would like to see more

:56:09.:56:13.

details about it. It is a shame about the demise of the College of

:56:14.:56:16.

social work that would have performed a lot of this function if

:56:17.:56:19.

it had been allowed to continue and to thrive, a lot of effort went into

:56:20.:56:24.

setting that up in the first place. But I'm also concerned about the

:56:25.:56:29.

independence of social work England. In mind standing it remains an

:56:30.:56:34.

executive agency of the Department for Education, so we need to have

:56:35.:56:37.

some clarity over that. I'm delighted I get a response top

:56:38.:56:42.

yellow I'm grateful to my honourable friend, I can assure him. That the

:56:43.:56:47.

new body will not be an executive agency, it will be a

:56:48.:56:50.

non-departmentally body, so it will be at arm 's length and I think that

:56:51.:56:56.

is right. I am grateful and gratefully reassured and either

:56:57.:56:58.

forward to supporting that amendment rather than some other amendment

:56:59.:57:02.

that I'm not so sure about. In clause 31, one of the overarching

:57:03.:57:07.

objectives, of the social work England organisation, is to promote

:57:08.:57:12.

and maintain public confidence in social workers in England. Quite

:57:13.:57:19.

right. But dad is also the job of the chief social worker, and one

:57:20.:57:22.

disappointment to me I had to say Mr Deputy Speaker, is that when we set

:57:23.:57:31.

up the appointment of a chief social worker, originally it was to be one

:57:32.:57:36.

chief social worker covering elderly and children but Benny was split

:57:37.:57:40.

into a child social worker and an adult care social worker. The point

:57:41.:57:46.

of a chief social worker, was to be a high-profile face, of social work.

:57:47.:57:51.

For the public in particular, to be a reassuring face of child

:57:52.:57:56.

protection to the public in times of high-profile tragedies and disasters

:57:57.:58:01.

involving safeguarding issues. And so when the current chief social

:58:02.:58:06.

worker for children said recently that "I don't pretend I am a voice

:58:07.:58:10.

for the profession, I'm a civil servant, I see my role is offering

:58:11.:58:13.

advice to ministers based on what others tell me about the system". I

:58:14.:58:18.

think there is more to that role. I think somebody needs not to just be

:58:19.:58:23.

a civil servant, certainly somebody working closely alongside ministers

:58:24.:58:28.

and civil servants, but equally somebody working alongside, on the

:58:29.:58:34.

street, out in action, with social workers and social working

:58:35.:58:37.

consultants and practitioners at the sharp end. I just think that we need

:58:38.:58:42.

to revisit the balance, that we have currently got with that position. So

:58:43.:58:46.

Mr Deputy Speaker I do apologise for going on at length, this is a

:58:47.:58:52.

subject, on which I spent most of my career in government involved in

:58:53.:58:57.

child safety and I'm very proud, with the progress that has been made

:58:58.:59:00.

but I'm very worried that we still have a long way to go, but it will

:59:01.:59:06.

help in that journey, but certain parts of it won't, so I do hope that

:59:07.:59:10.

when scrutinising this building committee and at report stage, the

:59:11.:59:15.

government reflects a little before it rushes back some things which

:59:16.:59:18.

clearly are not in the best interest of honourable children. Doctor

:59:19.:59:26.

Stella Creasy. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a true pleasure to

:59:27.:59:30.

follow the member with his detail than the size and some may say the

:59:31.:59:36.

exhaustive analysis, of the bill before us today. And I think I can

:59:37.:59:39.

speak for all of us on the side of the file when I say we share many of

:59:40.:59:43.

the concerns that he has put out to get legislation on how we protect

:59:44.:59:48.

young people in our country right. Can I also associate myself with the

:59:49.:59:53.

excellent instruction, which the member for Ashton-under-Lyme Dave,

:59:54.:59:55.

about this bill. While recognising that there are many parts of this

:59:56.:00:00.

bill that are welcome and could take us forward, in that concern across

:00:01.:00:03.

the house to give the best safeguarding for all children in

:00:04.:00:07.

this country. Because I see this bill about how do we best support

:00:08.:00:11.

our children in an imperfect world. A world that all of us are painfully

:00:12.:00:16.

aware of through casework and work within the communities. I think that

:00:17.:00:19.

is why all of us share perhaps the concern that the honourable member

:00:20.:00:24.

for sure has set out about hardship working and in particular working

:00:25.:00:28.

with those professionals. I think many of us have dealt with cases

:00:29.:00:32.

where we are not aware of professionals, but we are being

:00:33.:00:34.

guided by social workers with years of experience in complex and

:00:35.:00:38.

delicate matters which has been a vital assistance to all of us. A

:00:39.:00:42.

recognition to not involve them in this conversation may take us

:00:43.:00:46.

backwards rather than forwards as a country. I think that is why some

:00:47.:00:49.

vessels have real concerns about what will replace the local

:00:50.:00:53.

safeguarding boards and how we make sure that the multi-partnership work

:00:54.:00:57.

that has work in some parts of the country is not lost in the process

:00:58.:01:00.

of recognising where change is needed. In a wish not to indulge

:01:01.:01:05.

perhaps in one of the customs office house where the same thing said

:01:06.:01:08.

several times, let me try and the Minister some ideas about things

:01:09.:01:12.

that I think missing from this bill and I hope we will find cross-party

:01:13.:01:16.

consensus to add into it. Because I think one of the things, of concern

:01:17.:01:21.

of avoiding any suggestion of privatisation of such a delicate and

:01:22.:01:24.

important services to make sure that we talk about safeguarding, we

:01:25.:01:29.

involve, the conserving or prevention of safeguarding and in

:01:30.:01:32.

particular, the idea that we can act earlier in the system to make sure

:01:33.:01:37.

that children are protected. I'm particularly drawn to clause 16

:01:38.:01:40.

which talks about the safeguarding and promotion of welfare of all

:01:41.:01:45.

children in this country. And the role that local authorities might

:01:46.:01:51.

play in that and it is that in mind, talked about insuring a robust

:01:52.:01:55.

safeguarding system to be in place that I wish to let the Minister know

:01:56.:01:59.

that I will be tabling amendments to this bill to bring in what I

:02:00.:02:02.

consider to be one of the most crucial parts of safeguarding that

:02:03.:02:04.

we have yet to get right in this country. In particular, the idea of

:02:05.:02:09.

sex and relationships education for all young people in this country. We

:02:10.:02:13.

cannot say that we safeguard our children in this country when we

:02:14.:02:16.

make sure that they are taught about composting but not consent in their

:02:17.:02:21.

lives. Many of us may have stories of R.N. Sex and relationships

:02:22.:02:27.

education, I might fear that I was forever scarred about falling asleep

:02:28.:02:31.

in the classroom to be broken by somebody waving a female condom on

:02:32.:02:35.

my face. However, the truth is that it is no laughing matter in this

:02:36.:02:39.

country and I think many of us are acutely aware of the many pressures

:02:40.:02:42.

on our young people that we need to be able to address. And crucially,

:02:43.:02:47.

to be able to address in a positive and inclusive manner. I think all

:02:48.:02:51.

parents will tell you that they are concerned about the world today. In

:02:52.:02:57.

a former lifetime I was a youth worker agrees to say that all of us

:02:58.:03:03.

been 15-year-olds, I am indeed incredibly grateful that Facebook

:03:04.:03:06.

was not around when I was at school for a start. A third of young girls

:03:07.:03:10.

in this country report being sexually harassed in school, three

:03:11.:03:14.

quarters of girls in a girl guiding survey said they were anxious about

:03:15.:03:17.

sexual harassment in their age group. And 5500 sexual offences

:03:18.:03:23.

recorded in UK schools over the last three years alone. 600 rates. This

:03:24.:03:29.

is not to make parents fearful, but it is to ask what we can do to make

:03:30.:03:34.

sure that every young person in this country as the tools and the

:03:35.:03:37.

confidence to lead the lives that we would all wish for. To be able to

:03:38.:03:42.

know when no means no and yes Means yes. That is why it is important

:03:43.:03:47.

that we do not let it become the Internet that educate our young

:03:48.:03:50.

people. That we do not let it become the playground that tells them what

:03:51.:03:55.

passes for acceptable sexual conduct at that we actually give every young

:03:56.:03:58.

person the kind of training that you would want for our own children.

:03:59.:04:03.

This is not a critique of parents. Indeed many parents worked very hard

:04:04.:04:07.

to make sure that their children have good ideas about sex and

:04:08.:04:11.

relationship education. It is about recognising that parents can only be

:04:12.:04:15.

50% of the answer. It is about children that are the children will

:04:16.:04:21.

meet. So giving every child sex and relationship education should be

:04:22.:04:23.

part of safeguarding because it is make you sure that every young

:04:24.:04:26.

person who ever they come into contact with has the skills and the

:04:27.:04:29.

tools to leave the light that they would wish. That they would be able

:04:30.:04:34.

to deal with the modern world as it is, not perhaps as some would wish

:04:35.:04:38.

it were. Now I know that we will find support for this proposal

:04:39.:04:42.

across the house. I'm very mindful of the support from the select

:04:43.:04:46.

committee chairman, and I was very taken by the report that committee

:04:47.:04:51.

came out with. But is not just the women's equality committee, it is

:04:52.:04:55.

home affairs and education and the health committee, it is business and

:04:56.:05:02.

energy strategy committee, to make sure that everyone is given good

:05:03.:05:07.

access to sexual education. I think she is referring to the previous

:05:08.:05:11.

chair of the home affairs select committee, that was signed and it

:05:12.:05:14.

wasn't on behalf of the select committee and I said I would not be

:05:15.:05:18.

but supporting it, I certainly support the move for education to

:05:19.:05:21.

achieve that and not least we need to look, this bill is about building

:05:22.:05:26.

resilience and trying to support families and mini to do that in lots

:05:27.:05:30.

of ways, not only through I think the path of what she's alluding to,

:05:31.:05:35.

but please make sure that she recognises there is significant

:05:36.:05:39.

opposition to her proposal. I thank the member for stating that, I hope

:05:40.:05:43.

we can through the discussion through this change his mind. We

:05:44.:05:47.

have had this debate for some time and I tell him plainly that young

:05:48.:05:51.

people for Britain, are crying out for this kind of education. Time

:05:52.:05:56.

after time, they say that ignorance is not bliss, confidence is what we

:05:57.:06:01.

want, and it is not about replacing parents, it is about supporting

:06:02.:06:05.

them. It is about making sure that wherever our young people are, they

:06:06.:06:09.

have the right kind of young people around them. It is too important now

:06:10.:06:14.

not to listen to our young people, to be done in an age appropriate

:06:15.:06:17.

fashion within their schools. The time is now to get this right and I

:06:18.:06:22.

think it is recognition that the select committee chairs across this

:06:23.:06:26.

house, and while he may not have shared the support of this letter I

:06:27.:06:32.

believe that many will. It is right that we allay those fears because

:06:33.:06:37.

the consequence of not doing so, is to leave those young people at risk.

:06:38.:06:43.

It is a risk I didn't think we can accept. It is why I agree with the

:06:44.:06:46.

Secretary of State when she said she was minded to see this happen, she

:06:47.:06:50.

wanted to look at all options to do this. That is why believe the time

:06:51.:06:55.

is now to do this within this bill because I recognise there was

:06:56.:06:58.

discussion of doing this in the forthcoming education thing which is

:06:59.:07:03.

now stalling for whatever reason. It is too important to delay this

:07:04.:07:09.

matter. And that means using the legislative opportunity before us,

:07:10.:07:12.

to recognise that in order to safeguard every young person, they

:07:13.:07:17.

need to talk about consent, not just about the biology of sex but how to

:07:18.:07:23.

have positive relationships, equal relationships, safe relationships,

:07:24.:07:26.

and the honest truth is that is not happening for too many of our young

:07:27.:07:30.

people and we are seeing the consequences as a result. What I

:07:31.:07:33.

will be asking the government to do is to make sure that this is part of

:07:34.:07:37.

safeguarding at a local level and make sure that schools are given the

:07:38.:07:41.

guidance to be able to do this work for every young person and to make

:07:42.:07:47.

sure that they are doing it in a way that is age-appropriate and

:07:48.:07:50.

inclusive, and works with communities and above all, not

:07:51.:07:55.

simply to consult but to set a timetable because for two young I

:07:56.:07:58.

young people had been asking us to get this right and for too long

:07:59.:08:01.

their poise has not been heard in this debate. Now I hope, that the

:08:02.:08:07.

honourable member. Two is no longer in his place will be will see cross

:08:08.:08:12.

court seek support. I know members on my side including a front bench

:08:13.:08:17.

will be supporting it. I'll be happy to be sitting down to make it work

:08:18.:08:22.

but I don't think any of us can be happy, that there is genuine

:08:23.:08:27.

agreement that this needs to happen. Because we are failing our young

:08:28.:08:30.

people if we keep taking this issue into the long grass. Now, there is

:08:31.:08:36.

one other area as well I hope I can convince the minister that there

:08:37.:08:41.

will be cross-party support it. Perhaps the member for Enfield

:08:42.:08:48.

Southgate, to do with these amendments around child refugees. We

:08:49.:08:52.

were on the same side and it came to supporting those young people in

:08:53.:08:57.

Calais and let me start by acknowledging, safeguarding child

:08:58.:09:01.

refugees and about recognising the importance of extending safeguarding

:09:02.:09:04.

proposals to our young people, the statement that he made however, is I

:09:05.:09:07.

believed undermined by the guidance that will set up by the Home Office

:09:08.:09:11.

at the same time that he set out that statement, which caused the

:09:12.:09:17.

noble Lord dubs, pitcher Mendis champion, to withdraw his amendment

:09:18.:09:20.

to this very bad about this very matter. That amendment was withdrawn

:09:21.:09:24.

on the basis that there was it will across the house to make sure that

:09:25.:09:27.

we safeguard child refugees including during the process of

:09:28.:09:31.

transferring them overseas to the UK. I will happily give way. Could I

:09:32.:09:36.

thank the honourable friend for giving way and can I congratulate

:09:37.:09:40.

her on her outstanding work in regard to unaccompanied asylum

:09:41.:09:44.

seekers who often are voiced this. Can I also ask her advice on whether

:09:45.:09:49.

she thinks there is enough being done on counselling for

:09:50.:09:51.

post-traumatic postal Matic stress for those children who are seeing

:09:52.:09:58.

things that are quite unimaginable? Has thanked the honourable friend,

:09:59.:10:01.

she raises an incredibly important point. Counting should be part of

:10:02.:10:05.

the safeguarding process, however one of the concerns that many of us

:10:06.:10:08.

have what dealing with these young people is that many of them are

:10:09.:10:12.

still in France, precisely because of the guidance that the Home Office

:10:13.:10:16.

issued. Which stated that there would be a 2-step process and

:10:17.:10:20.

specify that nationality could be one of the criteria for helping

:10:21.:10:24.

child refugees, ahead of their best interests. It cannot be in the best

:10:25.:10:29.

interest of HR to put nationality before need and I would hope that

:10:30.:10:32.

the Minister will recognise, that the detail that is in his statement,

:10:33.:10:37.

of the 1st of November is undermined by such a strategy and therefore it

:10:38.:10:41.

is right in amendments to this bill that we clarify that this country

:10:42.:10:45.

would always put the best interests of a child first. And that should

:10:46.:10:54.

intrude the trial refugees. I was with them on the amendment but where

:10:55.:10:58.

there is perhaps a link with the previous proposal is that we can

:10:59.:11:01.

agree on the outcomes, it is how we achieve those. Whether we need

:11:02.:11:07.

statute to be able to will the ends, whether there are other means to

:11:08.:11:11.

achieve it. We will have that debate about the other members, but in

:11:12.:11:15.

terms of the other scapegoating amendment, the issue now is an

:11:16.:11:20.

implementation can we even saw with the dubs amendment, it is the

:11:21.:11:22.

practical implementation, doesn't always need it, to hold to tout the

:11:23.:11:30.

good words that need to be made. I thank the member for his part

:11:31.:11:33.

because action do agree with him on much of what he is saying a

:11:34.:11:38.

difference of having to prescribe and recognising locally led

:11:39.:11:40.

solutions but however I disagree with him fundamentally, for

:11:41.:11:44.

precisely the same reason that he's putting out. The outcomes that are

:11:45.:11:48.

being achieved are not what has been desired by the will of this place.

:11:49.:11:53.

So the outcome on sex and relationship education is not being

:11:54.:11:56.

achieved at a local level because there is in this clarity about what

:11:57.:11:59.

schools should be teaching and therefore too many young people are

:12:00.:12:02.

not getting the appropriate support that they need sick even with the

:12:03.:12:05.

best will in the world and parenting in the world unless we wrap those

:12:06.:12:09.

children up in cotton wool, the other people may present a risk. So

:12:10.:12:22.

to child refugees, sadly what we have seen throughout the process of

:12:23.:12:24.

the amendments, is goodwill in this place slowly ebbing away wedding the

:12:25.:12:26.

meditation has not match the outcome desired. Nowhere is that clear than

:12:27.:12:29.

trying to say that nationality is more important that need and I say

:12:30.:12:32.

to the Minister many of us were delighted by the statement that he

:12:33.:12:35.

made on the first of the member and then horrified to read the Home

:12:36.:12:41.

Office guidance that seemed to be against that spirit. I believe that

:12:42.:12:44.

we must carry five that we must always act in the best interest of

:12:45.:12:50.

the children just as Lord dubs seemed to want to in table in his

:12:51.:12:53.

original amendment. You remember well know the battle we have had, is

:12:54.:12:57.

difficult and uncomfortable as some of these debates might be. While

:12:58.:13:01.

some people might have concerned, surely all of us must want to act in

:13:02.:13:06.

the best interest. I'm sorry have to tell the Minister that the conduct

:13:07.:13:10.

of the Minister has made many of us believe that amendments are a

:13:11.:13:14.

necessary and I will be seeking against making this happen so that

:13:15.:13:17.

we can put this beyond doubt because sadly that guidance from the Home

:13:18.:13:21.

Office does put it in doubt as a result. I do not wish to echo the

:13:22.:13:26.

member from shore, not to undermine anything in terms of length. But I

:13:27.:13:29.

hope in terms of the proposals, that I can say, I'm looking forward to

:13:30.:13:33.

being part of this legislative process and the Dee Ford to

:13:34.:13:37.

scrutinising and seeking cross-party agreement on these issues because I

:13:38.:13:40.

think all of us in this house recognise that protecting Jordan is

:13:41.:13:43.

one of the most important jobs that we do. There may be disagreements

:13:44.:13:46.

about getting there but we do have to get there, you cannot avoid these

:13:47.:13:51.

issues any Morkel whether it is young people facing that uncertain

:13:52.:13:55.

world or stuck in this child centres, we owe a responsibility to

:13:56.:14:00.

all of them just as we're responsibility, through the

:14:01.:14:03.

parenting laws and I hope that they will listen and respond. I'm sure

:14:04.:14:08.

many others will. What we will not do is rest until this is resolved.

:14:09.:14:15.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, it is an honour, to follow the Honourable

:14:16.:14:19.

lady had to hear broadly the support from the opposition for this bill,

:14:20.:14:30.

as my honourable friend the member, four East Worthing and Shoreham

:14:31.:14:34.

said, we just need to do better, for vulnerable children and challenge is

:14:35.:14:39.

part of that, and new ideas are part of that as well. We can't allow this

:14:40.:14:44.

bill to be a missed opportunity, we can't allow it to be a missed

:14:45.:14:49.

opportunity in terms of prevention, and in terms of knowledge that we

:14:50.:14:52.

give to children. Because they are as much part of the safeguarding

:14:53.:14:59.

process. As any other structure all law, or piece of legislation. We put

:15:00.:15:03.

through this place. The focus of this bill is very much about

:15:04.:15:08.

children who can't remain in the family home, but has been broadened,

:15:09.:15:12.

particularly by the government amendments in the other place. To

:15:13.:15:17.

consider broader issues around child welfare and in my remarks today, I

:15:18.:15:22.

would like to focus on some of those broader issues. In particular,

:15:23.:15:28.

provisions regarding, adopted children and the ongoing support for

:15:29.:15:32.

children who are adopted. The more contentious issue which some members

:15:33.:15:38.

have, talked about today, innovating, the clause that was

:15:39.:15:43.

voted down and then finally, what this bill may perhaps be able to do

:15:44.:15:48.

as I said before, to improve the welfare of children and particularly

:15:49.:15:51.

to power those children themselves. So in terms of the provisions in the

:15:52.:15:57.

bill around adoption, it considers improvements to a long-term

:15:58.:15:58.

placement of children for Adoption. I hope the Minister can

:15:59.:16:07.

use this opportunity to tell the house how this measure sits

:16:08.:16:11.

alongside some recent announcements, that the government has made

:16:12.:16:14.

regarding the adoption and support fund and in particular, I'm thinking

:16:15.:16:20.

about the interim cap on financial support put in place midway through

:16:21.:16:24.

the financial year. The adoption support fund helps to make sure that

:16:25.:16:30.

really important therapeutic support, can be funded, for adopted

:16:31.:16:34.

children. Who are sometimes coping with very difficult trauma, complex

:16:35.:16:40.

and challenging behaviour. And indeed mental health problems as

:16:41.:16:45.

well. Which can result in them being at high risk, of adoption breakdown.

:16:46.:16:52.

This fund helps already thousands of families, I believe Mr Deputy

:16:53.:16:56.

Speaker, three and a half thousand families last year and the budget is

:16:57.:17:00.

being increased by the government, to around ?23 million this year. A

:17:01.:17:05.

significant investment, I think perhaps underpinning, this

:17:06.:17:09.

Minister's very real understanding of the challenges, that parents of

:17:10.:17:15.

adopted children face through his own family experience, and deep

:17:16.:17:20.

knowledge of the subject and I would like to put on record my thanks to

:17:21.:17:24.

to the Minister for all he has done to support families with adopted

:17:25.:17:30.

children and I know my constituents, are grateful for his expertise in

:17:31.:17:34.

this area. Perhaps Mr Deputy Speaker we should be unsurprised to hear

:17:35.:17:38.

that demand for this fund has outstripped supply of finances, and

:17:39.:17:44.

the Minister, with the inevitable fiscal duties that are upon him, has

:17:45.:17:48.

been put in a position where the cap has had to be introduced to this

:17:49.:17:53.

budget in October of this year. And whilst it is absolutely

:17:54.:17:56.

understandable that, this is a normal response to keeping control

:17:57.:18:02.

on budgetary pressures, it has inevitably created uncertainties for

:18:03.:18:05.

families like my constituents, Mr and Mrs Cross, who adopted their son

:18:06.:18:13.

in August 2013, now Mr and Mrs Cross are one of those families who really

:18:14.:18:16.

are incredible, in the work that they do. They have adopted a young

:18:17.:18:23.

child, who has a spectrum disorder. And as many members across the house

:18:24.:18:28.

will know, this means that, they require significant support for

:18:29.:18:34.

their son. But they have, taken, the measures that are needed to support

:18:35.:18:40.

him, and are doing a fantastic job, the therapy he now receives has been

:18:41.:18:45.

hugely beneficial, and has led to real progress but because the cost

:18:46.:18:51.

is in excess of the new ?5,000 cap, it is at this point uncertain, as to

:18:52.:18:55.

whether the funding will be available in the near future. The

:18:56.:19:02.

next phase of treatment costs around ?10,000, and would require her local

:19:03.:19:06.

authority in Hampshire, in the year to match fund any costs over ?5,000.

:19:07.:19:13.

Now close eight in the bill calls for long-term plans for the care of

:19:14.:19:18.

a child, to be in place yet my constituents, who are making an

:19:19.:19:22.

incredible choice to care for a severely disabled child, are at this

:19:23.:19:27.

point I'm sure, -- unsure where the care can be funded. And the Minister

:19:28.:19:32.

perhaps in his response today will be able to perhaps think about this

:19:33.:19:36.

and give his reflections on the local authority, and like mine in

:19:37.:19:40.

Hampshire and how it would respond to this and perhaps he can give my

:19:41.:19:46.

constituents, some measure of reassurance, that the support for

:19:47.:19:50.

their child can be continued in the future. The second issue I wanted to

:19:51.:19:54.

talk about as well this evening, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that clearly very

:19:55.:19:59.

controversial issue around the power to innovate. And, it has been

:20:00.:20:05.

clearly a very contentious issue in the other place, and the first

:20:06.:20:09.

section, the first part of this bill passing through Parliament. It was,

:20:10.:20:16.

a clause that was removed, voted out previously. Clauses 15 to 18. This

:20:17.:20:21.

provision allowed local authorities to apply to the Secretary of State

:20:22.:20:26.

to test new ways of working to raise awareness, to raise children's

:20:27.:20:31.

outcomes and new ways of doing that. And particularly, for high

:20:32.:20:34.

performing local authorities to be involved in that work. Now I think

:20:35.:20:39.

it is important Mr Deputy Speaker of course, to pay heed, to the very

:20:40.:20:45.

strongly felt concerns that were raised, by expert voice is not just

:20:46.:20:49.

on the other place, but outwith of this place as well. And I will be

:20:50.:20:56.

interested to hear the Minister 's response to those concerns that have

:20:57.:21:00.

been echoed again today, but the Department for Education, I think is

:21:01.:21:05.

really putting into place something that we do need to look at again in

:21:06.:21:11.

these measures. And really, giving partners in practice, which my local

:21:12.:21:14.

authority in Hampshire, is one of only eight in the country, the

:21:15.:21:19.

opportunity to look at innovative ways of working. If we are to find

:21:20.:21:23.

better ways to care for the vulnerable children that we all feel

:21:24.:21:29.

so deeply about, we need to be I think open to new ideas. And I hope

:21:30.:21:34.

that it might be possible to revisit the idea of this course which was

:21:35.:21:41.

very much supported by my and local authority in Hampshire, and it is

:21:42.:21:48.

right that this tightly regulated area, is as protected as it is. But

:21:49.:21:53.

I cannot believe that it would not benefit, from looking at new ways of

:21:54.:21:58.

working and we have all seen the examples that have been given to us

:21:59.:22:03.

in the briefings for today. But what I would say, is perhaps some of the

:22:04.:22:06.

honourable members have put their finger on it today. Perhaps, it is

:22:07.:22:12.

the fact that the measures somewhat came out of the blue I think, it was

:22:13.:22:16.

my honourable friend who said that. And that, we need to I think take

:22:17.:22:21.

care that we don't throw the baby out of the bath water as we move

:22:22.:22:26.

forward. I don't think the Minister had any intention for these measures

:22:27.:22:29.

to create a competition between local authorities, but to drive

:22:30.:22:34.

improvement and I think that is something that we would all want to

:22:35.:22:39.

applaud. No one I think is suggesting, that this approach would

:22:40.:22:44.

do anything other than drive innovation. In what has been an area

:22:45.:22:49.

each has developed in somewhat of a piecemeal way the inevitable in

:22:50.:22:55.

response to the various, sometimes quite appalling situation is that

:22:56.:22:57.

the local authorities have found themselves in. My honourable friend,

:22:58.:23:04.

said, he talked about the need, for policy and law to work in practice.

:23:05.:23:09.

I had to say Mr Deputy Speaker that when I read the Hansard from the

:23:10.:23:13.

other place about the debate here, and I read the Minister in the other

:23:14.:23:18.

place's response, that is exactly what I felt, this set of clauses was

:23:19.:23:23.

trying to do. And I think the intention is for the local

:23:24.:23:26.

authorities to be able to look at how they will make the work in

:23:27.:23:32.

practice, rather than, create somewhat of a postcode lottery. When

:23:33.:23:37.

they have that insight into better ways of working, to be able to pass

:23:38.:23:41.

that out to other areas, to be able to improve the way that we care for

:23:42.:23:45.

this vulnerable group of individuals. The final issue that I

:23:46.:23:50.

would like to raise Mr Deputy Speaker, and in terms of this bill,

:23:51.:23:55.

the first reading, is what we are doing, building on what durable lady

:23:56.:23:59.

for Walthamstow has been talking about what we are doing to empower

:24:00.:24:04.

children themselves. Especially perhaps vulnerable children, who

:24:05.:24:08.

might not have the consistent involvement of their parents in

:24:09.:24:11.

their lives and frankly face really difficult situations.

:24:12.:24:16.

In they have to take decisions about their own welfare with a the import

:24:17.:24:24.

of other adults to guide them. This bill and many others put in place,

:24:25.:24:30.

laws and procedures and protocols to help protect and improve the welfare

:24:31.:24:34.

of children through a whole host of agencies but it does not actually

:24:35.:24:39.

directly address what it is we're going to do do have those children

:24:40.:24:43.

themselves to make sure that they are armed with the knowledge they

:24:44.:24:47.

need help make the right choices to be able to safeguard themselves.

:24:48.:24:52.

This is the new concept, what we've done for many years. To try and

:24:53.:24:56.

encourage children to understand the dangers around drugs and alcohol.

:24:57.:25:09.

It is hugely important as parents and carers who now we have the prime

:25:10.:25:15.

responsibility to protect our children, we know that but we also

:25:16.:25:19.

know that our children need the ability to make good choices too, we

:25:20.:25:24.

can't be there 24 - seven. Social workers can't be there 24-7 and it

:25:25.:25:30.

is absolutely important that children have the ability to be able

:25:31.:25:36.

to make these decisions themselves in an informed way. This bill

:25:37.:25:40.

provides I think the perfect opportunity for the government to

:25:41.:25:44.

positively respond to the five select committee chair who have

:25:45.:25:50.

called for that and sex and relationship education to meet

:25:51.:25:55.

compulsory for school age children and I'm one of those select

:25:56.:26:00.

committee chair as a result of the work we did around our most recent

:26:01.:26:04.

report, sexual harassment and sexual violence in schools report which I

:26:05.:26:10.

think was a very sobering experience for all of our select committee

:26:11.:26:15.

members to take it on. What I'm talking about is to help empower

:26:16.:26:19.

children to be able to make their own decisions and when you start to

:26:20.:26:24.

hear some of the evidence and the statistics are run the challenges

:26:25.:26:29.

young people face in terms of personal welfare then I think this

:26:30.:26:35.

becomes clear that the debate is overdue and needs to happen and take

:26:36.:26:40.

action now. Two thirds of girls are experiencing sexual harassment in

:26:41.:26:41.

schools a regular basis. Our third of them were where

:26:42.:26:59.

children were perpetrated against other children. Community should be

:27:00.:27:05.

able to enjoy some sort of freedom and safety and school communities

:27:06.:27:12.

are no different to any others. When we look at what happens to children

:27:13.:27:17.

after their school life, 68% of students say that they are subject

:27:18.:27:21.

to verbal, physical or sexual harassment on campuses and the

:27:22.:27:29.

problem doesn't stop there. 85% of women are experiencing unwanted

:27:30.:27:33.

sexual attention in public places. I think the honourable lady from

:27:34.:27:39.

Walthamstow is right when she says it's about prevention, it's about

:27:40.:27:42.

making sure that we can prevent these problems happening in the

:27:43.:27:45.

first place by ensuring that children have the knowledge about

:27:46.:27:49.

how to make good decisions about what consent is and what control

:27:50.:27:51.

they can have over their own personal space. There has been a

:27:52.:28:01.

great deal of debating on this bill and many amendments in the other

:28:02.:28:05.

place particularly around the importance of joint working between

:28:06.:28:10.

agencies and particularly demonstrated by the importance of

:28:11.:28:15.

local authorities, the police and CCGs working together for the

:28:16.:28:19.

welfare of children in government amendment 103 in the other place. In

:28:20.:28:23.

placing that amendment the government recognised that a

:28:24.:28:28.

multifaceted strategy in this area in terms of welfare for children is

:28:29.:28:32.

absolutely vital. But there's another set of organisations that

:28:33.:28:37.

have a crucial role to play as well with children's welfare and those

:28:38.:28:40.

are schools. If this bill is to do as it sets out to to promote welfare

:28:41.:28:48.

for it also needs to make sex and relationship education compulsory to

:28:49.:28:51.

make sure that it is doing absolutely everything it can to

:28:52.:28:53.

protect children's welfare for future. What is compulsory in

:28:54.:29:00.

secondary schools at the moment is the science of reproduction, the

:29:01.:29:06.

rest is guidance that was last updated in the turn of the

:29:07.:29:12.

millennium in 2000 which makes no reference to pornography which we

:29:13.:29:14.

know as a way that more young children are finding out about sex.

:29:15.:29:21.

We know that 40% of schools do not teach sex and relationship education

:29:22.:29:25.

very well. Perhaps all of this is why organisations like Barnard is

:29:26.:29:28.

clear that the development of an early understanding and respect for

:29:29.:29:38.

each other's bodies and went to ask for help can help build resilience

:29:39.:29:42.

and understanding of what healthy relationships looked like and also

:29:43.:29:47.

to mitigate the effects of exposure to things like pornography.

:29:48.:29:53.

Following closely in agreeing with much of what she's saying and as is

:29:54.:29:57.

the want of various children's bills it strays into all sorts of subjects

:29:58.:30:00.

concerning children that are not in the bill but on this one I support

:30:01.:30:04.

her but there she agree me that one way of getting better quality sex

:30:05.:30:10.

and relationship education which we definitely need is by bringing

:30:11.:30:13.

experts in from outside of skills particularly young youth workers and

:30:14.:30:17.

others who can empathise with young people who they will listen to, take

:30:18.:30:22.

notice of and act on their advice rather than try to rely on Mrs Megan

:30:23.:30:26.

is the geography teacher who happen to have a couple of free period on a

:30:27.:30:31.

Thursday afternoon. I thank my honourable and for that intervention

:30:32.:30:34.

and he's absolutely right, we have to have expertise when it comes to

:30:35.:30:39.

teaching the subject but what I set out is the reason I am reading this

:30:40.:30:43.

is if we are going to tackle the welfare of children and we have to

:30:44.:30:47.

make sure we are effective in what we do, it's no good leading children

:30:48.:30:51.

out of the equation, we have to tackle that head-on. We don't

:30:52.:30:57.

disagree with him that under trained teacher are not the way to put in

:30:58.:31:03.

place effective sex and relationship education. All teachers whether they

:31:04.:31:06.

are Mrs Megan 's teaching geography or anybody else. They have to have

:31:07.:31:11.

an understanding of how they can stop the violence sexual harassment

:31:12.:31:15.

and sexual violence that too many young people

:31:16.:31:35.

told us. I agree with everything she is saying. This is in the bill

:31:36.:31:45.

because close 16 not only talks about promoting the welfare of

:31:46.:31:48.

children but also requires local authorities to work with relevant

:31:49.:31:56.

agencies. That is exactly what schools do, this is entirely an

:31:57.:32:01.

order and why we need to do it now. Thank you for that intervention.

:32:02.:32:11.

Sometimes in this place we can be concerned of raising the issue of

:32:12.:32:15.

sex education and information because we feel we are taking away a

:32:16.:32:18.

primary function of parents and that is simply not the way parents see

:32:19.:32:28.

it. That would show that 90% of parents want compulsory sex and

:32:29.:32:33.

relationship. Because they understand the pressures their

:32:34.:32:42.

children are under. Teachers understand this to because they

:32:43.:32:48.

understand the importance of helping when people navigate an appropriate

:32:49.:32:53.

way the pressures of being a teenager in the Internet world.

:32:54.:33:05.

Five select committee chairs as a result of the work that those select

:33:06.:33:11.

committees have done, indeed the DfEE has told the education

:33:12.:33:17.

committee that good PS H E underpins good academic achievement, we know

:33:18.:33:21.

that children who have received sex and relationship education and PA

:33:22.:33:25.

said she broadly are less likely to engage in risky behaviours and are

:33:26.:33:30.

much more likely to seek help when things go wrong. Children need to be

:33:31.:33:37.

able to recognise grooming and predatory behaviour and as Alison

:33:38.:33:41.

Hanley of the University of Bedfordshire told the education

:33:42.:33:43.

committee, if children have no ammunition to understand no wonder

:33:44.:33:49.

they end up in dangerous situations. Educating children about this is not

:33:50.:33:55.

an optional extra, it needs to be mandatory.

:33:56.:34:17.

The government established a group for PHSE. It is an area that 90% of

:34:18.:34:38.

children of parents want action on, violence against women are calling

:34:39.:34:43.

for action on it, the NSPCC and the list goes on and Colin the Minister

:34:44.:34:50.

to put in place a timetable for action including compressors a

:34:51.:34:54.

consultation to make sure that we get this right. Nobody is calling

:34:55.:34:59.

for rushed measures. This has been something as honourable members have

:35:00.:35:03.

already said that has been ongoing for some time. To make sex and

:35:04.:35:12.

relationship education compulsory and to do it in a way that brings

:35:13.:35:14.

this whole house together. I'm very pleased to be following my

:35:15.:35:29.

honourable friend from Basingstoke this afternoon. Firstly, I would

:35:30.:35:34.

like to say that I very much welcome this debate with the time and the

:35:35.:35:39.

focus it is spending looking at the outcomes for our children to be

:35:40.:35:46.

looked after and also that of the social work profession. However I

:35:47.:35:50.

must declare an interest. My sister is a senior practising social worker

:35:51.:35:56.

and I prior to coming to the member of Parliament worked for supporting

:35:57.:35:59.

fostering service and a contact supervisor capacity. I am also still

:36:00.:36:04.

connected with this charity as I remain an independent visitor for

:36:05.:36:08.

one of our looked after children. Madam Deputy is bigger, I consider

:36:09.:36:13.

myself to be extremely lucky. I was brought up in a safe and loving

:36:14.:36:17.

environment and was given the necessary tools to go out into the

:36:18.:36:23.

big bad world and make my own way. In 2007, I got involved for the

:36:24.:36:28.

first time in the charity supporting fostering services via my sister.

:36:29.:36:32.

This was the first time I had the privilege to meet and work after

:36:33.:36:40.

children, their families, carers and social workers and see first hand

:36:41.:36:44.

the challenges that young people face and those of the social work

:36:45.:36:49.

profession. There has been an increase in children becoming looked

:36:50.:36:53.

after and some of this has been attributed to a number of

:36:54.:36:57.

unaccompanied asylum seeking children representing 6% of the

:36:58.:37:01.

looked after population. I have also seen at local level the increase of

:37:02.:37:05.

children in care. In this environment it is right that this

:37:06.:37:09.

government and society are putting the outcomes of our young people at

:37:10.:37:13.

the top of the agenda, it's also right that focus is given to

:37:14.:37:18.

decisions made about the futures of our young people. In my limited

:37:19.:37:24.

involvement over the last nine years, I have seen some fantastic

:37:25.:37:27.

outcomes for our young people but far too many disappointing ones,

:37:28.:37:34.

some due to decisions made about their futures and also down to a

:37:35.:37:37.

lack of proper understanding of the Child and the use of timely best

:37:38.:37:42.

interventions. There is one young person who has been in care for over

:37:43.:37:48.

ten years since the age of four and has had to go through unbelievable

:37:49.:37:52.

experiences which even an adult would struggle to cope with. Being

:37:53.:37:59.

split from siblings, attending therapy, a failed adoption, a time

:38:00.:38:03.

in a therapeutic centre and a number of foster placements and social

:38:04.:38:08.

workers. Luckily, this young person has found now an amazing placement

:38:09.:38:12.

and has an amazing strength of character and resilience which we

:38:13.:38:17.

could only hope to have. They will succeed but this will be in spite of

:38:18.:38:21.

intervention is not solely because of them. Nobody can disagree that if

:38:22.:38:27.

a young person is ready for adoption and there is a family which is a

:38:28.:38:32.

perfect match that adoption should always be a major consideration by

:38:33.:38:36.

social services and the courts for that child. Achieving the best

:38:37.:38:39.

future outcomes for that young person should be the absolute focus

:38:40.:38:45.

and duty of social services and the courts. Unfortunately I have seen

:38:46.:38:50.

decisions about adoption delayed, in my opinion due to too much focus

:38:51.:38:54.

being given to the challenges by the birth parents and the focus of their

:38:55.:39:01.

needs, even with report after report, recommending a decision.

:39:02.:39:05.

This is not putting the child first when judgments are allowed to be

:39:06.:39:09.

challenged for longer of time. A social worker once said to me, I

:39:10.:39:14.

don't like adoptions, they make me feel nervous. I asked why and they

:39:15.:39:19.

said the stakes are too high, and the time I didn't quite know what

:39:20.:39:22.

she meant and thought it was rather an odd thing for a social worker to

:39:23.:39:27.

say. However after being present and seeing the damage that a failed

:39:28.:39:30.

adoption can cause, I finally understood. Relationships with

:39:31.:39:36.

children are like all relationships. We as adults don't like everybody

:39:37.:39:39.

that we come into contact with and this is the same for children. We

:39:40.:39:43.

ask a lot of children and adopters when maybe after only two week

:39:44.:39:49.

introduction period we put strangers together and hope it works out OK. I

:39:50.:39:53.

know the process is far more confiscated our fundamentally we

:39:54.:39:57.

hope the good relationship is built after an initial honeymoon period

:39:58.:40:00.

and the adopters and children are given the support they need for it

:40:01.:40:05.

to be a success. I have seen children given the best chance of a

:40:06.:40:09.

great life when adoptions have worked at once an adoption order has

:40:10.:40:12.

gone through, the support from the agency stops. The stakes are high

:40:13.:40:19.

with adoption and it is therefore my believe that adoption, if possible,

:40:20.:40:25.

be regarded as the perfect solution but it will always be very much

:40:26.:40:30.

dependent on the individual child and the use of special guardianship

:40:31.:40:33.

is a long-term placements should not be undermined by a focus on

:40:34.:40:40.

adoption. I welcomed the fact that the support for care leavers are

:40:41.:40:43.

featuring heavily in this bill with the local offer and the extension of

:40:44.:40:49.

personal advisers, this is a major step forward for supporting this

:40:50.:40:52.

very vulnerable young group of people as they make the difficult

:40:53.:40:56.

transition coming out of care to going it alone. Some of our young

:40:57.:41:00.

people have been exposed to experiences and upbringing some of

:41:01.:41:06.

us would travel to comprehend also because the care system tries to

:41:07.:41:09.

wrap them in a safety blanket, a child care can be far less prepared

:41:10.:41:13.

to go it alone without having a supportive network of trusted people

:41:14.:41:18.

giving guidance and having to make decisions for themselves. Most

:41:19.:41:20.

decisions in the past would have been for them. It is a long outdated

:41:21.:41:25.

view that once you reach 18 or even into your early 20s that you don't

:41:26.:41:30.

need help. The extension of personal advisers working with our young

:41:31.:41:34.

people to make sure they are getting the right access to the right

:41:35.:41:37.

services that they need, being given the support they deserve in order

:41:38.:41:41.

for them to succeed, putting them on a pathway to achieve their full

:41:42.:41:46.

potential is great and I very much welcome this. However I would like

:41:47.:41:50.

the Minister to outline further out in practice this would work. That

:41:51.:41:54.

all personal advisers would always be social workers and how plans for

:41:55.:41:57.

young people leaving care will be monitored and evaluated so that it

:41:58.:42:01.

is not just a tick box exercise by local authorities but providing

:42:02.:42:08.

meaningful help, support and advice to our vulnerable young people and

:42:09.:42:10.

the personal advisers getting to know the young person and truly

:42:11.:42:18.

understanding their needs. The local offer would be extremely important

:42:19.:42:22.

to these young people but we know due to budget burdens of local

:42:23.:42:25.

authorities, unless there is a statutory obligation to deliver

:42:26.:42:28.

services in very much depends on the local priorities of the Council

:42:29.:42:33.

delivering that support. Investment in our most vulnerable young people

:42:34.:42:37.

at this most crucial time in their lives can only bring future awards.

:42:38.:42:43.

I would like to see a high-quality offer by local authorities for our

:42:44.:42:50.

young people. We know there is a higher proportion of formerly looked

:42:51.:42:54.

after children that are not in education, employment or training.

:42:55.:42:58.

We also know that leaving care and going it alone can present barriers

:42:59.:43:01.

to the young person to move forward in a positive way with their lives,

:43:02.:43:06.

even though they can think of this time as being an exciting time and

:43:07.:43:09.

when they're full of hope. However we do know that some of these young

:43:10.:43:14.

people will never had to manage their own finances whilst being in

:43:15.:43:18.

care and they are much more vulnerable to getting into debt and

:43:19.:43:21.

not being able to manage without that safety net which a family or

:43:22.:43:26.

care can provide. We must make sure that our young people are given all

:43:27.:43:30.

the tools to help them succeed and I do believe that the group of

:43:31.:43:34.

individuals deserve to be treated differently with regards to

:43:35.:43:38.

accommodation provision, access to funds in order for them to be able

:43:39.:43:40.

to move forward and be given the best chance to succeed. I represent

:43:41.:43:46.

a constituency which has a young offenders Institute and a training

:43:47.:43:55.

centre. All too often these institutions have been looked after

:43:56.:43:58.

and I believe this is a direct outcome of not only are they having

:43:59.:44:02.

experience growing up but because of the life support and access to

:44:03.:44:06.

services they require as they into adulthood. Finally, I would like to

:44:07.:44:14.

touch on social workers. Policeman, doctors, nurses and firemen are

:44:15.:44:18.

public servants which many sectors of our society stand up to defend.

:44:19.:44:24.

And who will hear no criticism, yet when it comes to our social workers,

:44:25.:44:28.

so often they are criticised, blamed, singled out when something

:44:29.:44:34.

goes wrong. They put out with a negative dialogue to do with their

:44:35.:44:39.

possession with stereotypes as who they are, dismissed as do-gooders

:44:40.:44:43.

but the realities is that our social workers should be held in the

:44:44.:44:47.

highest esteem as a profession who every day are making decisions and

:44:48.:44:51.

intervening to protect children and families from harm. Working with

:44:52.:44:56.

families to help them stay together and having an impact on outcomes. On

:44:57.:45:01.

a daily basis they are seeing some of the most terrible situations

:45:02.:45:05.

where children are being neglected, and used physically and mentally or

:45:06.:45:09.

working with children who have severe and complex disabilities.

:45:10.:45:15.

Social workers don't go into social work for money, they going to social

:45:16.:45:18.

worker because they want to protect children and very often it's a

:45:19.:45:23.

thankless task. I remember when my sister was working in the duty team

:45:24.:45:27.

she was struggling to sleep at night as she would be worrying what was

:45:28.:45:30.

happening with in some of the family she was working with when she went

:45:31.:45:34.

home, fearing what she would be presented with in the morning when

:45:35.:45:39.

she got back to work, this is not unusual, this is the daily life of a

:45:40.:45:43.

front line social worker, I welcomed the formulation of social work

:45:44.:45:48.

England, even though there is some concerns within the profession about

:45:49.:45:52.

this change. Social work as a profession is so important and it is

:45:53.:45:56.

right there is a regulator focused on raising standards and good

:45:57.:46:00.

practice, strengthening formal training pathways, however I must

:46:01.:46:04.

note that I have spoken to a number of social workers before this debate

:46:05.:46:09.

today and because of some of the case notes they are experiencing and

:46:10.:46:13.

a level of work that they're involved with actually some of them

:46:14.:46:19.

weren't even aware of this bill. I feel, however an element that has

:46:20.:46:23.

been missed, social workers carry out a job which is mentally,

:46:24.:46:28.

emotionally demanding. We know there is a high burn-out rate of social

:46:29.:46:31.

workers who work in front line social worker, we also know that in

:46:32.:46:35.

some parts of the country's individual caseworker loads are far

:46:36.:46:40.

too high, which in some cases leaves social workers feeling unsafe in

:46:41.:46:44.

carrying out their work. For example, a social worker who has a

:46:45.:46:49.

caseload of 20 working 40 hours a week would leave only two hours a

:46:50.:46:52.

week per case, the casework could be a mixture of children in need, cases

:46:53.:46:58.

going through court or child protection, all requiring a

:46:59.:47:01.

different amount of attention in one week. Some cases require a

:47:02.:47:05.

significant amount of time yet we are expecting social workers to know

:47:06.:47:09.

the children and the family and be able to make safe decisions. This

:47:10.:47:15.

does not leave opportunities for our professionals to have thinking space

:47:16.:47:21.

or to allow social workers to carry out the preventative work which many

:47:22.:47:25.

social workers want to be doing. By the very nature of their work, every

:47:26.:47:30.

child and family is different and they innovate every day with the

:47:31.:47:35.

current framework under sometimes very challenging circumstances. In

:47:36.:47:43.

closing, everyone in this house should be championing the outcomes

:47:44.:47:47.

of our children and society. As they become our parents, our workers and

:47:48.:47:52.

leaders of the future. It is not acceptable that in this century, the

:47:53.:47:58.

futures of some of our young people can be predicted because of their

:47:59.:48:02.

pasts and where they have come from. State intervention must work and I

:48:03.:48:08.

hope this government will continue to push for better outcomes for our

:48:09.:48:15.

vulnerable looked after children. It was my choice to be last today so

:48:16.:48:22.

I'm very pleased to be here. It was a great honour to follow the

:48:23.:48:26.

excellent speech by Mike very honourable friend and I completely

:48:27.:48:30.

agree with her on the support for adoptive parents and I haven't close

:48:31.:48:35.

relative who has adopted three children and it's really not easy so

:48:36.:48:39.

I completely agree. I'm really pleased about this bill and will

:48:40.:48:43.

come some of the things in it, including the decision-making

:48:44.:48:46.

support for looked after children. I particularly welcome the raising of

:48:47.:48:52.

the age of care leavers to 25 for local authority services. I know

:48:53.:48:56.

that young people in their 20s still need looking after having got four

:48:57.:49:01.

of my own in their 20s. There is plenty of evidence to note that the

:49:02.:49:07.

brain does not develop until 25 and the state does need to keep their

:49:08.:49:12.

parental responsibility and to young people firmly launched. In March

:49:13.:49:18.

2016 there were 70,440 looked after children in England and based on the

:49:19.:49:28.

2016 data, 26,344 K leavers aged 19-21 out of which 40% are not

:49:29.:49:32.

employed in education or training compared with 14% of all 19-21

:49:33.:49:38.

-year-olds who didn't go through the care service. As my honourable

:49:39.:49:47.

member for East Worthing and Shaw said 4% actually end up in the

:49:48.:49:51.

criminal justice system. The role of the corporate parent is to safeguard

:49:52.:49:54.

the young but there is a resource aspect in this. Portsmouth children

:49:55.:50:00.

services estimate that if you keep a young person in care out of a single

:50:01.:50:03.

involvement in the criminal justice system it says the state 100,000 in

:50:04.:50:10.

various ways, for instance avoiding the need for probation services, the

:50:11.:50:14.

cost of the criminal justice system and social services for

:50:15.:50:22.

rehabilitation. I mentioned also the reading of this bill and the second

:50:23.:50:33.

debate. That protection should follow the care leavers around the

:50:34.:50:37.

country select any other young person they are looked after by

:50:38.:50:40.

either the local authority from their original local authority. I

:50:41.:50:46.

welcomed the amendment for a national offer for care leavers.

:50:47.:50:51.

Independent living is very different in budgeting, looking for jobs and

:50:52.:50:56.

setting up home including bills and your council tax. I hope the

:50:57.:50:59.

National offer will be accepted and personal advisers clearly

:51:00.:51:04.

identified. The second front I want to speak about is the part about

:51:05.:51:09.

social workers and I completely welcome the social workers England

:51:10.:51:15.

as a non-departmental public body. Which will be independent. As the

:51:16.:51:20.

honourable member for Worthing East mentioned, I worked on a commission

:51:21.:51:26.

with him in 2007 called the no blame game commission on children's social

:51:27.:51:29.

workers and some of the recommendations were adopted, for

:51:30.:51:35.

instance the chief social worker but the general social care Council

:51:36.:51:39.

which was the regulator folded in 2012 and the new regulator, the

:51:40.:51:42.

health care and professional council looked after many other jobs and I

:51:43.:51:46.

think it's very important that the social workers are seen as unique

:51:47.:51:51.

job. Therefore we have to recognise it's a separate profession to level

:51:52.:51:56.

with other professionals such as doctors and nurses. Some of the

:51:57.:52:00.

other recommendations have already been accepted but I thought it would

:52:01.:52:02.

be good to remind a minister in hadn't read the report. For

:52:03.:52:08.

instance, the first recommendation, the generic nature of social work

:52:09.:52:12.

must be maintained and resources better targeted to enable social

:52:13.:52:16.

workers to work with family and preventative role that think that's

:52:17.:52:19.

largely happening already. I mentioned the role of the consultant

:52:20.:52:24.

social worker, also the role of the consultant social worker which I

:52:25.:52:28.

think my honourable friend for Rochester and your sister does that,

:52:29.:52:34.

a senior practitioner that had to be introduced to keep the experience

:52:35.:52:37.

social workers on the front line rather than putting them to

:52:38.:52:41.

management, so therefore needed an appropriate career and pay structure

:52:42.:52:43.

should be put into place to support them because you don't want to go

:52:44.:52:46.

into management there was no other way of going forward. Every social

:52:47.:52:51.

worker should be encouraged and have the opportunity to become a member

:52:52.:52:55.

of professional similar to the British Medical Association Royal

:52:56.:52:59.

College of novices which could advocate on their behalf, negotiate

:53:00.:53:03.

on salaries and conditions of services, very good public relations

:53:04.:53:06.

on behalf of the profession as a whole and influence future

:53:07.:53:09.

government policy. Consideration should be given for a requirement

:53:10.:53:13.

that employers and couldn't agency employers fund this membership for

:53:14.:53:16.

the first year to ensure all entrants to the profession can

:53:17.:53:20.

become members. We also recommended the chief social worker, which we

:53:21.:53:25.

got the idea from the chief social worker in New Zealand which works

:53:26.:53:31.

incredibly successfully. They would work across government departments

:53:32.:53:34.

with Unison, the British Association of social workers and other

:53:35.:53:36.

representative bodies but particularly with the

:53:37.:53:49.

Students are poorly because it is an incredibly tough profession. They

:53:50.:53:59.

need them to be provided with good news stories and cases, I don't know

:54:00.:54:02.

if anybody is watching a programme on one of the channels, that shows

:54:03.:54:07.

how hard it works. It is meant to be quite amusing but it would be nice

:54:08.:54:10.

if we could have positive stories coming out of that and the media.

:54:11.:54:16.

The next thing that we recommend it was the social work which continues

:54:17.:54:20.

to be generic to allow social workers good foundations in all

:54:21.:54:22.

aspects of the social work so they could get a good grasp of all of the

:54:23.:54:28.

different aspects of looking after children who need looking after in

:54:29.:54:31.

the care service. The content and length of degree might be reviewed

:54:32.:54:35.

to quit them with the right knowledge and skills, which I think

:54:36.:54:38.

is in the bill as well and that is beginning to happen. But we also

:54:39.:54:43.

consider it should extend for four years so that they have a year out,

:54:44.:54:49.

in practice. And get a very good grasp of what they are getting

:54:50.:54:54.

themselves into. The seventh recommendation was multi-agency

:54:55.:54:57.

training should be incorporated into the qualifying degree and should be

:54:58.:55:00.

continued to be more of a continuing professional developer and. I think

:55:01.:55:05.

in many professions, professional development is incredibly important

:55:06.:55:08.

whether it is teaching, but it is social work and they need to have

:55:09.:55:11.

their continuing professional development and support throughout

:55:12.:55:15.

their career. We also recommended that the Department of Health and

:55:16.:55:19.

the Department of children's services work with local authorities

:55:20.:55:24.

and others to insure that resources, are available. To insure that all

:55:25.:55:29.

social workers can undertake the level of post-qualifying education

:55:30.:55:32.

and training necessary for the roles and tasks that they are employed to

:55:33.:55:37.

undertake. So again that goes back to the continuing development. There

:55:38.:55:40.

should be a combination of a national recruitment campaign and

:55:41.:55:44.

local headhunting to encourage people to go into more social work.

:55:45.:55:49.

There is a lot of vacancies and people, social workers who are

:55:50.:55:51.

already in the profession are incredibly overworked but it is

:55:52.:55:55.

incredibly rewarding as a profession and we need to make sure that we get

:55:56.:56:00.

more people into that. We need a national recruitment campaign to do

:56:01.:56:04.

that. One of the ways you can do that, is by the advertising high

:56:05.:56:09.

impact advertising like for the army and police and teaching to send a

:56:10.:56:12.

clear message that the role of social work it is important to

:56:13.:56:16.

society and should be respected. One of the other recommendations which I

:56:17.:56:20.

know has come forward is the establishment of the newly qualified

:56:21.:56:23.

social worker status which is essential to report and is retained

:56:24.:56:27.

in experience social workers, who are coming out of university and

:56:28.:56:32.

straight into work, into very harrowing circumstances, without

:56:33.:56:35.

getting the support that they needed. I hope that we will be

:56:36.:56:39.

looking at apprenticeships to. I know, it would be a great thing if

:56:40.:56:46.

we could do it through social work. They need to have protected

:56:47.:56:49.

caseloads and qualifying study and training time, so that we retain the

:56:50.:56:55.

social workers that we have got already. There needs to be a

:56:56.:56:58.

flexible pay structure that corresponds with other similar

:56:59.:57:02.

professions, and recognises the difference in living costs around

:57:03.:57:09.

the country. The last thing, we have already done, I think, it has

:57:10.:57:13.

already been adopted, the numerical adoption targets which are not in

:57:14.:57:17.

the best interest of the charge should be phased out and that has

:57:18.:57:20.

already been adopted, I'm very pleased to find that and better

:57:21.:57:24.

targeted funding should go into research and development of social

:57:25.:57:28.

care. Some of these have already been accepted but it was a very good

:57:29.:57:32.

report, it is now nearly ten years old. If the Minister hasn't read it,

:57:33.:57:37.

I do insist that he does read it and anything we haven't done already,

:57:38.:57:41.

look at that and put it into practice. I hope the new regulator

:57:42.:57:45.

continues the improvements that is already happening in the social

:57:46.:57:48.

working profession. It is a tough job in the front line but a very

:57:49.:57:52.

necessary and rewarding one to hand I look forward to seeing this bill

:57:53.:57:55.

as it passes through the committee stage. Layla thank you very much

:57:56.:58:03.

Madam Deputy Speaker. As I have already said, we will be dividing

:58:04.:58:07.

the house this evening. However I'm going to take this opportunity to

:58:08.:58:10.

deliver the government some home truths. This is a bill that from its

:58:11.:58:15.

very inception has been ill thought out and hastily put together without

:58:16.:58:19.

any guidance from children or the industry that it purports to be

:58:20.:58:24.

helping and improving. In short, it is a bill about short and social

:58:25.:58:28.

work with negligible input from children and social workers. By not

:58:29.:58:32.

listening to the profession, the government has once again showing

:58:33.:58:35.

how little value it sees in using the professional experience and

:58:36.:58:40.

expertise of those who work day in and day out, often risking their own

:58:41.:58:43.

welfare to protect children and families. What social workers want

:58:44.:58:49.

is to be out in the field with vulnerable children and families,

:58:50.:58:51.

because the more time that they spend with them, the more vulnerable

:58:52.:58:55.

children are identified and supported or saved from harm. It

:58:56.:59:03.

couldn't be simpler than that. So far the government social work

:59:04.:59:06.

reform agenda has been a total failure. Rooted instructor all

:59:07.:59:12.

system change and tinkering around with individual, Labour held local

:59:13.:59:17.

authorities. Adam Deputy Speaker, the Minister twists, he will get his

:59:18.:59:22.

term I'm sure. They continues to be an accession with adoption, to the

:59:23.:59:26.

detriment of early intervention with work that can keep families together

:59:27.:59:31.

and children out of the care system. This government is completely

:59:32.:59:35.

oblivious to the severe impact of their austerity measures, the

:59:36.:59:38.

punitive welfare policies which are causing untold damage to our most

:59:39.:59:43.

vulnerable children and families. I will remind the Minister has I have

:59:44.:59:47.

many times that social work is a holistic profession. The government

:59:48.:59:51.

's closure of sure start units and removal of early years help and

:59:52.:59:56.

family support centres, the disproportionate cuts to local

:59:57.:59:59.

authorities and the most deprived areas as measurably taken its toll.

:00:00.:00:04.

All this government seems to be doing for desperate families is

:00:05.:00:08.

turning the screw, tighter and tighter, year-on-year until they

:00:09.:00:15.

break. In fact, as the honourable members have already said, the

:00:16.:00:19.

demand for help and protection is rising. Over the last ten years

:00:20.:00:24.

there has been 124% increase in serious cases where a local

:00:25.:00:27.

authority believes that HR may be suffering or is likely to suffer

:00:28.:00:32.

significant harm. In the varied spending on social work has been

:00:33.:00:35.

found to be totally unrelated to quality. In short, all of the

:00:36.:00:41.

government initiatives and changes are not yielding positive results.

:00:42.:00:47.

This is systemic, not local failure. In other words it is the government

:00:48.:00:52.

's full. Fourth, the NAR and the education select committee report

:00:53.:00:56.

into social work reform notices there are significant weaknesses in

:00:57.:01:01.

the government agenda. In that the reforms focus disproportionately on

:01:02.:01:04.

changing structures potentially to the detriment of the very people

:01:05.:01:11.

delivering this key public service. What the social work profession

:01:12.:01:15.

needs is continuity, stability and confidence. A government that can

:01:16.:01:19.

hold their nerve on how best to help children and their families by

:01:20.:01:24.

putting in place, and embedding and policies. Policies perhaps such as

:01:25.:01:31.

the introduction, as PSA Chi, and supported by the right Honourable

:01:32.:01:34.

member for Basingstoke. The government though are failing to get

:01:35.:01:40.

the basics right. Reducing the social worker caseloads, preventing

:01:41.:01:43.

experienced professionals from quitting the profession, training

:01:44.:01:48.

social workers in a holistic way, not fast tracking them and forcing

:01:49.:01:51.

them to specialise before they had even been trained in the basics.

:01:52.:01:56.

Amending IT and the bureaucratic process across the board, to achieve

:01:57.:02:00.

the goal of getting social workers where they want is to be. From

:02:01.:02:04.

behind their desks and seeing the families with whom they work. This

:02:05.:02:10.

bill does nothing to respond to the crisis in social work into the

:02:11.:02:14.

hundreds and thousands of children who need better services right now.

:02:15.:02:19.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would also like to take this opportunity as

:02:20.:02:23.

others have done, to thank the labour lords and other peers whose

:02:24.:02:27.

tireless work has resulted in the bill before us today being markedly

:02:28.:02:30.

different from that which was first introduced. I would in particular

:02:31.:02:36.

like to congratulate peers on defeating the government and forcing

:02:37.:02:39.

them to remove dangerous clauses from the bill that would pave the

:02:40.:02:43.

way for the privatisation of children social care. It is

:02:44.:02:49.

scandalous that these clauses are soon to reappear in committee stage.

:02:50.:02:54.

The government's proposals would allow local authorities under the

:02:55.:02:58.

guise of innovation to opt out of protective primary legislation,

:02:59.:03:02.

decades of legislation that has led to us having one of the safest child

:03:03.:03:07.

protection systems in the world. Legislation that was hard fought for

:03:08.:03:11.

by the profession in this place, and in the other place. These proposals

:03:12.:03:17.

have caused alarm and outrage, amongst the profession and sector

:03:18.:03:23.

overall. I have yet to meet a social worker that supports the changes, we

:03:24.:03:27.

have had no real clarity from the Minister as to where the demand has

:03:28.:03:33.

come from, who is the mundane yet, what pieces primary legislation is

:03:34.:03:36.

it that local authorities and social workers are saying prohibits them

:03:37.:03:40.

from carrying out good social work. Will the Minister tell now today?

:03:41.:03:46.

This is the legislation is formed in the worst possible way, without

:03:47.:03:50.

demand and without any evidential basis for fixing the problems it

:03:51.:03:55.

purports to fix. The government have invented a solution to an invented

:03:56.:04:00.

problem, because it won't solve any of the problems in social work. What

:04:01.:04:05.

I know from my time in social work practice, is the things that social

:04:06.:04:10.

workers find prohibitive such as case recording are in secondary

:04:11.:04:14.

legislation, guidance or in the custom and practice in their

:04:15.:04:18.

particular local authority, all of which can be changed without primary

:04:19.:04:23.

legislation. The government have denied time and time again that the

:04:24.:04:27.

opt out clauses in the bill were not about privatisation. Yet late last

:04:28.:04:33.

week, two years after it was written, and inextricable delay in

:04:34.:04:38.

responding to freedom of information requests, the education Department

:04:39.:04:40.

released a report referred to by my honourable friend which sets out how

:04:41.:04:47.

children's social care can be moved out of local authority control. A

:04:48.:04:52.

report which states that independent contractors have said that they are

:04:53.:04:57.

willing to play the long game, wait for councils to hand over the

:04:58.:05:00.

majority of not all of their children social care services after

:05:01.:05:04.

they have developed their experience, in children and family

:05:05.:05:10.

social work. So there you have it Madam Deputy Speaker. Independent

:05:11.:05:11.

contractors are going to use probable children and families to

:05:12.:05:16.

experiment with once the government allows local authorities to opt out

:05:17.:05:21.

protective legislation. These are the most dangerous changes to child

:05:22.:05:32.

protection either the scene. Labour, with stakeholders have expressed

:05:33.:05:35.

outrage will fight the government every step of the way on these

:05:36.:05:41.

clauses. Gala ball children are not to be used as market experiments in

:05:42.:05:46.

each are protection strategy that requires the dispensation of the law

:05:47.:05:50.

to achieve it is counter-productive and downright dangerous. Of course

:05:51.:05:55.

Madam Deputy Speaker there are parts of the bill that we can support. The

:05:56.:06:02.

deduction of details caught staff, the extension of the person advising

:06:03.:06:08.

role, and the local offer for care leavers are all steps in the right

:06:09.:06:12.

direction. The concern from this side, is can they deliver it? The

:06:13.:06:17.

government for example in the bill has promised to promote the physical

:06:18.:06:21.

and mental health of looked after children. But under their watch,

:06:22.:06:25.

child and adolescent mental health services are in total meltdown with

:06:26.:06:29.

many looked after children waiting not just months but years for

:06:30.:06:34.

specialist help. Changes need to be properly resourced, because if not,

:06:35.:06:37.

they are warm words and nothing more. It is confirmed that these

:06:38.:06:44.

resources will be properly resourced, the bill also establishes

:06:45.:06:49.

a new social work regulator. We will be carefully considering this change

:06:50.:06:54.

and those that relate to the local safeguarding board in child

:06:55.:06:56.

safeguarding practice review panel in committee. Because reaction share

:06:57.:07:01.

some of the concerns of the Right Honourable member for East Worthing

:07:02.:07:06.

and Shoreham. We also have ongoing concerns about the independence and

:07:07.:07:12.

impact of the non-Department public body model now proposed, especially

:07:13.:07:20.

the lack of detail in the current proposals, which have government

:07:21.:07:22.

appoints direct it to the organisation. Can the Minister

:07:23.:07:27.

please explain why is it that the social work profession is treated so

:07:28.:07:30.

differently to other health and care professionals. Finally, the bill is

:07:31.:07:39.

not talking about its response to child seeking children. These

:07:40.:07:42.

children are seeking the most immense suffering and trauma, and

:07:43.:07:48.

whilst thanks to the noble Lord's hand in reminding them of this

:07:49.:07:53.

crisis, we will see a strategy in May next year but these are urgent

:07:54.:07:57.

matters and deserve further debate in this place. We fully support the

:07:58.:08:01.

amendment so eloquently and passionately outlined why my

:08:02.:08:08.

honourable friend from Walthamstow. But in essence Madam Deputy Speaker,

:08:09.:08:12.

what we have here, is a bill with some nice sounding elements, that

:08:13.:08:18.

don't appear to be fully resourced. Therefore not guaranteed, in a

:08:19.:08:21.

continual threat to open up children social care to the market, by

:08:22.:08:23.

allowing opt outs of legislation. In Fact We Will Actually Have A Bill

:08:24.:08:32.

Presented To Us In Committee That If It Became Law It Could In Theory Be

:08:33.:08:38.

Dispensed Less By Local Authorities. It Is A Completely Ridiculous

:08:39.:08:40.

Approach To Legislation And Insults To This House. Sentence Case Back --

:08:41.:08:49.

Sentence Case --. I know that getting work as a social convener is

:08:50.:08:55.

a difficult task. But trust me, this bill is not the answer. We will be

:08:56.:09:00.

seeking significant amendments in committee, in making clear that the

:09:01.:09:04.

government understands the answer to every problem is not privatisation

:09:05.:09:09.

and micromanagement, because Labour will never allow this government to

:09:10.:09:14.

use our most foldable children as experiments in Tory ideology. Can I

:09:15.:09:26.

begin by thanking honourable members for the enthusiastic engagement with

:09:27.:09:30.

the issues at the heart of this bill. I know we all share a

:09:31.:09:35.

commitment to improving the lives of our most foldable children and this

:09:36.:09:40.

has been demonstrated by the energy by which this has happened

:09:41.:09:48.

throughout this debate as the aspect of the bill are being today in much

:09:49.:09:52.

more detail as we enter into committee. My honourable friend the

:09:53.:09:56.

Minister for school standards set out in the opening of this debate,

:09:57.:10:00.

protecting our most probable children and giving them the care

:10:01.:10:02.

and support they need to thrive as one of the governments most

:10:03.:10:07.

important responsibilities. The children who need support have often

:10:08.:10:11.

faced challenges that most of us can only ever imagined. They have

:10:12.:10:17.

disabilities or have faced abuse and neglect, we have been let down by

:10:18.:10:20.

the people who are supposed to love and protect them. They may be being

:10:21.:10:24.

exploited by perpetrators preying on the vulnerability. As children's

:10:25.:10:28.

social care professionals deal with these highly complex highly

:10:29.:10:34.

demanding challenges every day. They step up and take responsibility for

:10:35.:10:38.

protecting our vulnerable children. In my time as children's minister,

:10:39.:10:41.

as a family barrister Foster sibling I have often been inspired by

:10:42.:10:47.

stories of children whose lives are transformed by social workers,

:10:48.:10:51.

Foster carers, residential care staff, doctors and others. These

:10:52.:10:56.

people epitomise the compassion and deep desire in our society to help

:10:57.:11:00.

others, without which we and our children would be so much the

:11:01.:11:05.

better. So the bill we are debating today is a critical part of creating

:11:06.:11:08.

a children's social care system that enables these people to do the very

:11:09.:11:12.

best job possible for our children. -- and our children would be so much

:11:13.:11:19.

the poorer. This takes forward important measures for putting

:11:20.:11:23.

children first. A strategy which I think represents the most

:11:24.:11:26.

fundamental reforms to the system in a generation. The bill places the

:11:27.:11:30.

interests of vulnerable children right at the heart of the social

:11:31.:11:36.

care system. It defines what good corporate parenting website, and

:11:37.:11:39.

secures the involvement of the whole council in looking out for children

:11:40.:11:42.

in or leaving its care. It requires every local area to spell out

:11:43.:11:47.

exactly what support they are offering to care leavers and extends

:11:48.:11:51.

the help of a personal adviser to all care leavers up to the age of

:11:52.:11:58.

25. It introduces improved national arrangements and strengthened

:11:59.:12:01.

arrangements for multi-agency co-operation and safeguarding. It

:12:02.:12:04.

extends educational support to children leaving care through

:12:05.:12:08.

adoption or special guardianship. It creates the conditions for good

:12:09.:12:12.

placement decisions to be made by -- for children coming into the care

:12:13.:12:15.

system by ensuring that the child's long care -- long-term needs are

:12:16.:12:20.

properly considered and introduces a new bespoke regulator for social

:12:21.:12:25.

work. Social work England. An organisation that will be empowered

:12:26.:12:29.

to raise standards and social work and raise the status of this vital

:12:30.:12:35.

profession. Madam Deputy Speaker, members have raised a whole

:12:36.:12:38.

multitude of important points in today's debate that I'll do very

:12:39.:12:42.

best to respond to events detailing the house longer than would be

:12:43.:12:46.

deemed acceptable. I am grateful for the constructive engagement of

:12:47.:12:49.

members and I do want to work together to move forward with these

:12:50.:12:51.

legislative provisions that have huge potential to improve the life

:12:52.:12:57.

chances of children that we all care so deeply about. The honourable

:12:58.:13:04.

member for Ashton-under-Lyne asked where her strategy for children in

:13:05.:13:08.

care is, we have it, it is the putting children first document and

:13:09.:13:10.

I would encourage her to refresh your memory of that all-encompassing

:13:11.:13:16.

strategy for children in care to 220 20. She asked about spending on

:13:17.:13:19.

children's services, and it is right to say that the pattern of

:13:20.:13:23.

inspection outcomes is not about how deprived area is or local geography

:13:24.:13:29.

or even the money being spent on children's social care, some of the

:13:30.:13:31.

local authorities judged inadequate by Ofstead this year when among the

:13:32.:13:35.

highest spending well high performance referred to spend their

:13:36.:13:38.

money more effectively, investing in the best services and bringing costs

:13:39.:13:44.

down and the key here is identifying where investment makes a difference

:13:45.:13:50.

in spreading knowledge and practice about what works. She also asked

:13:51.:13:56.

about the local offer and what kinds there would be for local

:13:57.:14:00.

authorities. The legislation already censored the areas local authorities

:14:01.:14:04.

should provide support under, was being health and well-being,

:14:05.:14:07.

education and training, employment, participation in society and Laois

:14:08.:14:11.

ships and we expect this to cover a wide range of services from relevant

:14:12.:14:18.

universal health and financial support that care leavers can access

:14:19.:14:23.

and benefit from. We have developed a prototype offer that we expect

:14:24.:14:27.

local authorities to consider and provide access that I provide

:14:28.:14:31.

examples of more specific support. I am happy to share this with the

:14:32.:14:34.

honourable ladies achievements which denies it in more detail. She asked

:14:35.:14:40.

about the new regulator 's independence, the bill makes clear

:14:41.:14:45.

that this will be a separate legal entity with its own staff as a

:14:46.:14:50.

non-departmental public body. The government has always been clear

:14:51.:14:54.

that it has no desire to make decisions about individual social

:14:55.:14:58.

workers. The chair of the education select committee made some central

:14:59.:15:04.

points about the foundations of the bill which he welcomed, including

:15:05.:15:08.

the regulatory changes. He raised the issue of a professional body for

:15:09.:15:12.

social work and I agree I think it is absolutely important for the

:15:13.:15:16.

profession to have a strong body to represent it to provide support and

:15:17.:15:19.

guidance as to help them develop their own practice. I have already

:15:20.:15:25.

set out at the end Cass conference a few weeks ago exactly how I want to

:15:26.:15:29.

work with the profession to make sure we come up with the right

:15:30.:15:33.

solution. We have tried a whole host of different ways of making that

:15:34.:15:36.

work and we need to know go for the connection we have something we want

:15:37.:15:41.

your -- that will endure long into the future. He alluded to one of the

:15:42.:15:46.

outstanding care leading services we have in England and the virtue of it

:15:47.:15:50.

having strong leadership and I agree with them, and I have been hugely

:15:51.:15:55.

impressed by the work that has gone on the by Mark Redhill and his team

:15:56.:15:59.

and there's a lot that the casual others as to what works. The

:16:00.:16:04.

honourable member for Motherwell and Wishaw told us to look at the work

:16:05.:16:10.

in Scotland and I am always happy to look at the Scottish prospective, I

:16:11.:16:14.

always as ever invite her to look at what we are doing in England, two,

:16:15.:16:17.

Scotland have children at the heart of the system she says. So do we and

:16:18.:16:22.

if she looks also putting children first strategy documents you will

:16:23.:16:26.

see that. And of course although Scotland may lead the way in some

:16:27.:16:30.

areas, we lead the way in others. Staying put being a good example.

:16:31.:16:33.

She asked about corporate parenting principles and why they are only to

:16:34.:16:39.

have regard, the reason for that is that the local authority is the

:16:40.:16:41.

corporate parent and is legally responsible for the catholic

:16:42.:16:45.

children in care leavers and we believe maintaining this clear

:16:46.:16:50.

accountability is right. -- legally responsible for the children and

:16:51.:16:56.

care leavers. The intention is that this will help improve the response

:16:57.:17:01.

to them carrying out the duties that they already have set out in

:17:02.:17:06.

legislation. She asked about the government's commitments to the UNC

:17:07.:17:11.

RC, the government remains fully committed to protecting children's

:17:12.:17:13.

rights and the United Nations Convention on the right of the

:17:14.:17:18.

child. We have responded to the written ministerial statement

:17:19.:17:21.

published in October and to the permanent Secretary's letter to his

:17:22.:17:24.

counterparts across government. That there was an example of how we

:17:25.:17:27.

constantly seek to not only protect children tried also to enhance them,

:17:28.:17:32.

and there is a full trial rights impact assessment that was conducted

:17:33.:17:36.

during the development of the bill and I know there is considerable

:17:37.:17:39.

debate in the Lords on this issue and that is one that we have

:17:40.:17:43.

recently reaffirmed as a commitment to the WMS to reinforce the message

:17:44.:17:47.

of the importance of the UNC RC across every development and making

:17:48.:17:53.

sure that there is a proactive role in considering children's rights in

:17:54.:17:58.

policy-making. The member for East Worthing and Shoreham, I will do my

:17:59.:18:01.

utmost to address all of the point series, but I do join him and my

:18:02.:18:05.

honourable friend the member for Portsmouth South in praising the

:18:06.:18:09.

incredible work and dedication of our social work force. Something

:18:10.:18:13.

which was reactivated by the honourable member for South Shields.

:18:14.:18:18.

Both children and adult social workers who all do a fantastic job.

:18:19.:18:25.

It is so difficult day in day out. I do agree with him that the

:18:26.:18:28.

administrative burdens on social workers sitting in front of

:18:29.:18:31.

computers and filling in forms has hampered much of the progress of

:18:32.:18:36.

social work, and I have read the report, no more blame game, on

:18:37.:18:41.

several occasions, which only he was instrumental in reducing. I would

:18:42.:18:45.

say to him that the whole purpose of the changes we're making to the

:18:46.:18:49.

serious review process is to address exactly that issue, that we get away

:18:50.:18:54.

from pointing the finger and we get into looking at where things have

:18:55.:18:58.

gone wrong and why and how we make sure it does not happen again in the

:18:59.:19:03.

future. He set out some of the highlights of the reform programme

:19:04.:19:05.

over the last six years on children's social care, anti-racist

:19:06.:19:11.

staying put as perhaps one of those -- and he raised staying put is

:19:12.:19:15.

perhaps one of those and I would like to enforce that there has been

:19:16.:19:20.

an exceptional response to that duty with 54% of 18-year-olds now

:19:21.:19:24.

choosing to stay put, 30% of 19-year-olds and 16% of 20 a lot but

:19:25.:19:28.

of course the mechanisms of that are under review to ensure that it will

:19:29.:19:34.

continue to benefit more children. He talked about some of the

:19:35.:19:37.

deficiencies in the system and one of those being sharing best practice

:19:38.:19:42.

and again I agree with him, that is exactly why we are setting up what

:19:43.:19:47.

works centre for children's social care that will build a robust

:19:48.:19:51.

evidence base and disseminate learning about what does and doesn't

:19:52.:19:55.

work in children's social care practice to really help local

:19:56.:19:58.

practitioners and commissioners employ the most effective,

:19:59.:20:00.

cost-effective front line practices to support children. Visually we

:20:01.:20:05.

will work closely with the child safeguarding practice review panel

:20:06.:20:09.

to ensure practice development identified through reviews that are

:20:10.:20:14.

widely disseminated. An adoption I share his pride in the work this

:20:15.:20:17.

government has done to improve the adoption process, but for

:20:18.:20:20.

prospective adopters and crucially for children, we have seen a rise in

:20:21.:20:26.

the number of children being adopted to over 5000 per year and we have

:20:27.:20:32.

seen them adopted more quickly. But on the back of the judgment there

:20:33.:20:38.

has been a disappointing fall in those numbers and we are seeking to

:20:39.:20:41.

do all we can to address that so we don't lose the ground that we made

:20:42.:20:45.

up in the early years of this government. He should also know as

:20:46.:20:50.

was raised by my right noble friend the member for Basingstoke, that in

:20:51.:20:56.

raising the adoption support for their been 10,000 families that have

:20:57.:20:59.

directly benefited from that fund and although we have had to

:21:00.:21:02.

reluctantly put a fair access limit in the short-term to enable more

:21:03.:21:08.

families were at all possible to benefit from that fund we want to

:21:09.:21:12.

find a sustainable solution so we continue that support in the long

:21:13.:21:17.

term and I am very happy to meet with my right honourable friend the

:21:18.:21:21.

member for Basingstoke who has a particular case that she has raised

:21:22.:21:25.

acid make-up advice of the wider issues we face in getting this

:21:26.:21:28.

right. He raised the question about corporate parenting principles, are

:21:29.:21:36.

they in addition to section 23, the answer is that the principles are in

:21:37.:21:39.

addition to existing legislation, it is not strike to put new duties on

:21:40.:21:43.

local authorities. They are already very clearly set out. What we're

:21:44.:21:47.

trying to do is engender a whole council approach to taking for

:21:48.:21:52.

children in the care and then having regard to those principles in any

:21:53.:21:56.

decision they make on their behalf. On personal advisers, although we

:21:57.:22:00.

are extending the use of personal advisers, I concur with his view

:22:01.:22:02.

that there is a whole range of quality and access for care leavers

:22:03.:22:12.

to personal -- to personal advisers that is why we get the scope of what

:22:13.:22:16.

a personal advisers is there to do in the types of people have become

:22:17.:22:18.

personal advisers together with the training they get truly matters the

:22:19.:22:22.

need for those care leavers that they have told us they desperately

:22:23.:22:29.

want. He raised drafting issues and details on the additional support

:22:30.:22:33.

for children in care, I will look carefully at that and I'm sure we

:22:34.:22:36.

can address was in committee. An serious case reviews, I could not

:22:37.:22:41.

agree more with him about the need for transparency. We worked hard and

:22:42.:22:45.

opposition on the publication, I remember substituting my honourable

:22:46.:22:50.

friend on Newsnight to talk about this very subject. We now need to

:22:51.:22:57.

make sure that the new system reflects what we know is an

:22:58.:23:01.

important element of an approach which will provide is with a shining

:23:02.:23:06.

light on the practice has fallen short. He asked about active

:23:07.:23:12.

participation in your local safeguarding arrangements, including

:23:13.:23:16.

in financial contributions. That is an important part of the new system

:23:17.:23:19.

and we set out in games in more detail about how we expect to

:23:20.:23:26.

engender such an approach. -- set out in guidance. He made a very

:23:27.:23:29.

clear pitch which I will to four where we should go next with the

:23:30.:23:34.

power to intervene but I will talk more about that at the end of my

:23:35.:23:36.

speech. The member for Enfield Southgate asks about cases where

:23:37.:23:40.

mothers have repeated pregnancies. He should know that we have spent

:23:41.:23:46.

and will spend a total of around ?11 million up to 2020 on its logic that

:23:47.:23:49.

has been extremely successful in trying to break that cycle and help

:23:50.:23:54.

mothers find a different path through the lives and reduce the

:23:55.:23:57.

number of children coming into the care system. The honourable lady for

:23:58.:24:02.

Walthamstow talked about the need to concentrate on prevention. That is

:24:03.:24:05.

something that we always need to have at the heart of any decision

:24:06.:24:09.

that we make on where money is spent, where policy should move

:24:10.:24:10.

towards. The there are the number of other

:24:11.:24:21.

honourable members who raise that issue. On child refugees she made

:24:22.:24:26.

reference to my written ministerial statement on a safeguarding strategy

:24:27.:24:29.

across government and I'm grateful for her support for it but she does

:24:30.:24:33.

query how it sits alongside the Home Office guidance. I will that

:24:34.:24:37.

carefully at what she says and I will talk to Home Office ministers

:24:38.:24:40.

but the Home Office have published that guidance setting out the

:24:41.:24:46.

legibility criteria, and they are all children aged 12 and under, all

:24:47.:24:52.

children and referred by the French authorities. Those nationalities

:24:53.:24:55.

most likely to qualify for refugee status in UK aged 15 or below and as

:24:56.:25:01.

the Dubbs amendment, children transfer should be refugees, the

:25:02.:25:06.

best interest of a child who is also established as part of the process.

:25:07.:25:12.

Although the Honourable lady would have two appreciate that we need a

:25:13.:25:17.

method, to prioritise, I am happy to discuss the matter further with her

:25:18.:25:20.

with my colleague in the Foreign Office. I thank the Minister giving

:25:21.:25:26.

way, witty knowledge that nationality is put before the child

:25:27.:25:31.

and further identifies particular nationalities, ignoring for example

:25:32.:25:37.

certain children France, like the Afghan children a third of whom have

:25:38.:25:41.

gone missing because of the gap this has caused. I appreciate, but we are

:25:42.:25:49.

worried about them in the run-up to Christmas. I'm happy to do that,

:25:50.:25:55.

like her I don't want to create conditions which are

:25:56.:25:57.

counter-productive to the shared mission that we have. And I will

:25:58.:26:02.

make sure that there is as rapid as we can possibly be, acknowledgement

:26:03.:26:07.

of the further work that needs to be done, to ensure that we are in way

:26:08.:26:13.

that doesn't create more difficulties, but brings about more

:26:14.:26:18.

positive solutions. My right honourable friend the member for

:26:19.:26:22.

Basingstoke raised the issue of the adoption case in her constituency

:26:23.:26:26.

and I will say I'm happy to discuss that further with her. We do need to

:26:27.:26:32.

move to a more sustainable approach but of course what the adoption

:26:33.:26:35.

support fund has shown is that there is a real need for that additional

:26:36.:26:40.

therapeutic support and I'm committed as the children's minister

:26:41.:26:43.

to do what we can to continue to do that into the future. The honourable

:26:44.:26:54.

member for Rochester talked with experience about touching this bill,

:26:55.:26:58.

she particularly raised the delays in the adoption process and I agree

:26:59.:27:05.

with much of what she has said. I agree that the time it takes has

:27:06.:27:10.

reduced to 18 months, a reduction of four months from its peak although

:27:11.:27:13.

there is still more work that needs to be done because every month that

:27:14.:27:17.

goes by is one that a child will never get back. As I say, more

:27:18.:27:21.

children are receiving that adoption support. And I know that she was

:27:22.:27:30.

unable in her own area that the message goes through to families who

:27:31.:27:34.

may not yet realised that the support is available. She was also

:27:35.:27:38.

clear, that the new provisions for care leavers, a major step forward,

:27:39.:27:43.

I recognise again that we need to make sure that social workers have

:27:44.:27:47.

the tools they need to make the most of those changes. My honourable

:27:48.:27:54.

friend the member for Portsmouth South, I'm grateful for measures to

:27:55.:27:59.

improve, she raised, the National offer, I can tell her that I met,

:28:00.:28:04.

with the Minister in the Department for Work and Pensions to see what

:28:05.:28:08.

further action we can take and I will be able to elude two more in

:28:09.:28:13.

detail in committee and I take a point called social worker training

:28:14.:28:16.

which is very much behind the work around the assessment accreditation

:28:17.:28:20.

process and making sure that we raise standards wherever possible.

:28:21.:28:25.

The honourable lady for South Shields, we do get on very well

:28:26.:28:31.

Madam Deputy Speaker, but I have to say I agree very little with what

:28:32.:28:36.

she had to offer this afternoon. She questions the value that we put on,

:28:37.:28:41.

of social workers. I have to say that is exactly what this bill is

:28:42.:28:45.

about and I would ask also to look more widely at the work that the

:28:46.:28:49.

government is doing, the innovation programme, where we have already

:28:50.:28:54.

spent over ?100 million Trekkie to local authorities to try and test

:28:55.:28:58.

new ways of working with another 200 million harp until 2020. That is 300

:28:59.:29:05.

million worth of value that is put directly into improving children's

:29:06.:29:11.

services. When she started her a response, I felt she was determined

:29:12.:29:14.

to try and turn this, I don't think she's wanting to, seems to be moving

:29:15.:29:19.

in the direction of a sort of ideological struggle about many of

:29:20.:29:23.

these issues. I do understand her desire to oppose and to be seen to

:29:24.:29:28.

oppose, but I hope when we get into committee we can have a constructive

:29:29.:29:33.

debate about what is in the bill and how that fits into the wider

:29:34.:29:36.

government programme because what I have no doubt is that we do have a

:29:37.:29:42.

shared desire to prove outcomes for vulnerable children and I do have a

:29:43.:29:47.

pragmatic streak running through me. I'm not some ideologues who will

:29:48.:29:53.

just sit there, and create a wall of noise. I wanted to hear the argument

:29:54.:29:58.

but I'll am also wanting her to hear mine too. She raised a report

:29:59.:30:02.

although she did fail to show the official government response to that

:30:03.:30:05.

report which says" we disagree with the option in the report relating to

:30:06.:30:10.

the privatisation of children's social care services and we will not

:30:11.:30:14.

be implementing this option." So it couldn't be clearer about our

:30:15.:30:22.

position. Madam Deputy Speaker if I can move briefly about the power to

:30:23.:30:25.

innovate, that has generated the most debate in this bill and the

:30:26.:30:28.

honourable members have raised questions over the power, a

:30:29.:30:32.

provision to remove the bill and referred to by the right honourable

:30:33.:30:36.

member, Mr for skill standards at the opening of this debate. We do

:30:37.:30:40.

intend to revisit these powers in this house because of the important

:30:41.:30:45.

role that they stand to play in improving the quality of children's

:30:46.:30:48.

social care and I'm grateful to my right honourable friend, the member

:30:49.:30:54.

for Basingstoke her support in explaining the new ways of working

:30:55.:30:57.

are a way to drive improvement in practice. Whenever I visit local

:30:58.:31:02.

authorities and speak with front line social workers, I am obviously

:31:03.:31:06.

not meeting the same ones as the honourable lady opposite because I'm

:31:07.:31:10.

always struck by the passion, energy and dedication that they bring to

:31:11.:31:13.

their work and to offer my leave with a message that rather than

:31:14.:31:17.

helping them in their task, the structures and processes that we put

:31:18.:31:21.

them in place top them from using their professional judgment to truly

:31:22.:31:23.

respond to the needs of the children they look after. As the Munro

:31:24.:31:28.

landmark review told us, overregulation gets in the way of

:31:29.:31:33.

social workers ability to put children first. So this power

:31:34.:31:37.

dresses that challenge has been called for by local authorities

:31:38.:31:42.

around the country. Because it would give councils the ability to test

:31:43.:31:44.

new ways of working designed to improve outcomes for children in a

:31:45.:31:48.

safe and controlled environment where the impact of removing a

:31:49.:31:52.

specific requirements can be measured carefully. That is not to

:31:53.:31:58.

say that important points haven't been raised in this house, all of

:31:59.:32:01.

which I have and will consider carefully and will bringing back a

:32:02.:32:07.

power with significant changes, and additional safeguards that I hope

:32:08.:32:11.

provide the reassurances requested. What I do want to be clear Madam

:32:12.:32:16.

Deputy Speaker, we don't want to privatise protection services for

:32:17.:32:22.

children. We would privatise child protection services, they are

:32:23.:32:25.

already, there is already clearly just the tip restrictions on the

:32:26.:32:29.

outsourcing of children social care functions, it was never the

:32:30.:32:33.

intention to use the power to innovate to revisit these but to put

:32:34.:32:39.

these beyond doubt. Bringing for the classificatory amendments in the

:32:40.:32:42.

other place. And we went either remove fundamental rights or

:32:43.:32:46.

protections from children dash Ashley went either. Our aim is to

:32:47.:32:50.

strengthen and not weaken. My mission, has always been, to improve

:32:51.:32:57.

the lives of vulnerable children. It is our job as a government to create

:32:58.:33:02.

the conditions in which excellent practice can flourish and I'm

:33:03.:33:05.

convinced that with proper safeguards in place, the ability to

:33:06.:33:09.

pilot new approaches will be in the long-term allow this house to enact

:33:10.:33:14.

more effective evidenced -based legislation, drive wider improvement

:33:15.:33:17.

from another tip people across the system. And I agree, with a

:33:18.:33:24.

professor when she says, "I welcome the introduction of the power to

:33:25.:33:29.

innovate, this is a critical part of the journey set out in my

:33:30.:33:32.

independent review of child protection towards a child welfare

:33:33.:33:36.

system that reflects the complexity and diversity of children's needs.

:33:37.:33:40.

This quote it goes on to say "Trusting professionals to use their

:33:41.:33:44.

judgment rather than be forced to follow unnecessary legal rules will

:33:45.:33:47.

help to ensure that children get the help that they need when they need

:33:48.:33:52.

it". Testing innovation in a controlled way to establish the

:33:53.:33:55.

consequences of the change is a sensible and proportionate way

:33:56.:33:58.

forward. However, I would ask the honourable members, but forecasting

:33:59.:34:05.

a final judgment to consider the amendments that we intend to table

:34:06.:34:09.

that I believe provide that sensible proportionate approach built on a

:34:10.:34:13.

clear and single purpose of improving the outcomes of vulnerable

:34:14.:34:18.

children. Finally Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to talk about sex

:34:19.:34:23.

and relationship education. And my right honourable friend the member

:34:24.:34:27.

for Basingstoke and the member for Stroud and wharf in Stoke, spoke out

:34:28.:34:32.

on the question of sex and relationship education. I also want

:34:33.:34:40.

to recognise its importance. And of course the government already issued

:34:41.:34:43.

stat tree guidance on teaching relationships and has made funding

:34:44.:34:47.

ready, to improve the quality of that teaching. I have heard the call

:34:48.:34:52.

to go further in this area. To help build the resilience and confidence

:34:53.:34:55.

of children and young people, in tackling what the modern world

:34:56.:35:00.

throws at them, not least online. This is of course a topic on which

:35:01.:35:04.

there are many and strongly held views, and it will be important to

:35:05.:35:08.

look at those in the round. Not least because PSHE, and H REI

:35:09.:35:22.

linked. And it is, pay per job the Secretary of State and have asked

:35:23.:35:25.

people to advise me further on these matters. And I will ask them to

:35:26.:35:29.

accelerate this work so that I can report on our conclusions at a later

:35:30.:35:33.

port in the bill 's passage, when has everyone in this house we will

:35:34.:35:36.

be able to look at them and have their say. Madam Deputy Speaker I'm

:35:37.:35:40.

sure that these reflections only started do justice to the range of

:35:41.:35:43.

important issues that we have debated today. I look for to picking

:35:44.:35:48.

up these matters in greater detail as it moves into committee stage. I

:35:49.:35:53.

see the contents of the children social work Bill as a major step

:35:54.:35:56.

forward in making sure that our most honourable children get the levels

:35:57.:36:00.

of support and opportunity that any of us would want for our own

:36:01.:36:04.

Georgian. I welcome the debate and the challenge we have engaged this

:36:05.:36:08.

afternoon, it helps to maintain momentum find a shared endeavour,

:36:09.:36:13.

the United commitment to improving the lives of our most honourable

:36:14.:36:17.

children. Please let me leave this out in no doubt, that I recognise

:36:18.:36:22.

and accept the challenges that we face. This government is more

:36:23.:36:27.

determined than ever, to rise to those challenges without clear and

:36:28.:36:30.

ambitious plan to fundamentally reform the system. How vulnerable

:36:31.:36:35.

children deserve no less and I commend this bill to the house. The

:36:36.:36:42.

question is that the bill now be read a second time, as many that

:36:43.:36:53.

think yes say ayes ayes. The ayes habit. As many of that opinions say

:36:54.:37:02.

aye. . The Monday resolution to be moved formerly. As many of the

:37:03.:37:08.

opinion say aye. And the contrary, no. Ways and means resolution to be

:37:09.:37:12.

moved formerly. The question is as on the order paper, as many say

:37:13.:37:19.

ayes. I think the ayes have it, the ayes habit. Davis six, the Minister

:37:20.:37:26.

to move. The question is as on the order paper, as many say aye. The

:37:27.:37:33.

contrary no. The ayes habit. The ayes habit. We come to motion seven,

:37:34.:37:42.

the defence committee, Jackie Doyle Price. As many of that opinions say

:37:43.:37:49.

aye. The ayes habit. We now come to motion number eight relating to

:37:50.:37:52.

Northern Ireland affairs committee. Jackie Doyle price. The question is

:37:53.:37:59.

on the order paper. I think that the ayes habit. We now come to motion

:38:00.:38:04.

number nine relating to women and equality is committee. The question

:38:05.:38:12.

is has on the order paper. I think that the ayes habit, the ayes habit.

:38:13.:38:16.

I beg to move that the house now adjourned. Catherine McIndoe. Thank

:38:17.:38:25.

you Madam Deputy Speaker I have called on this debate I issue that

:38:26.:38:29.

will touch millions of people and their families at some point in

:38:30.:38:34.

their lives. Indeed it is particularly appropriate that this

:38:35.:38:37.

debate is taking place today with the 5th of December having been

:38:38.:38:41.

designated International volunteer Day by the United Nations since

:38:42.:38:43.

1985. In order to celebrate the power and

:38:44.:38:53.

potential of volunteerism. The UN says international volunteer Day is

:38:54.:38:56.

an opportunity for volunteers to reason where is of the contribution

:38:57.:39:01.

they make to their communities and this year 's theme of global plus,

:39:02.:39:06.

hash tag, ceased to give volunteers around the world the recognition

:39:07.:39:12.

they deserve well also giving a hand to potential volunteers buying

:39:13.:39:15.

Courage and then to give up some of the time for others. Of course the

:39:16.:39:18.

link between International volunteer Day in this debate is the vast

:39:19.:39:23.

majority of end of life palliative care outside of hospital. It is

:39:24.:39:28.

provided by the charitable sector and is only partly funded by the

:39:29.:39:32.

NHS. People who don't need the money and time through volunteering with

:39:33.:39:38.

end of life care charities play an immeasurably important role in

:39:39.:39:41.

ensuring that the majority of us and our loved ones will get the right

:39:42.:39:46.

care and support when we are buying. We are also going to need more

:39:47.:39:51.

volunteers, as more people die each year the demand for high-quality

:39:52.:39:55.

palliative care at end of life care increases. Something which I will

:39:56.:40:01.

return to later. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have long been an

:40:02.:40:03.

advocate of the need for a good palliative care and support to be

:40:04.:40:07.

available to those who need it. However, it is a result of my recent

:40:08.:40:11.

work with the charity managerial locally that I saw this debate. As I

:40:12.:40:16.

am sure honourable members will know, man HUD happened providing

:40:17.:40:19.

care and support for people living with terminal illness and their

:40:20.:40:23.

families for several years. -- marry Curie. They were able to care for

:40:24.:40:32.

thousands of people across the UK. In October, I have the absolute

:40:33.:40:37.

privilege of meeting with my constituent who has terminal cancer.

:40:38.:40:42.

And Fay Morrison, a 21-year-old student who has befriended Don to

:40:43.:40:49.

the marry furious service. This pioneering service which has been

:40:50.:40:53.

available since last year but has volunteers who they trade with

:40:54.:40:56.

people living with terminal illness. Dividing them of their loved ones

:40:57.:41:01.

with companionship emotional support and practical help with the aim of

:41:02.:41:04.

ensuring that the quality-of-life is the best that can be in its final

:41:05.:41:11.

stages. Last December, since last December, Fay has been making

:41:12.:41:14.

regular visits to see Don in his home and over that time they are

:41:15.:41:18.

clearly developed a close friendship. Fay is able to insure

:41:19.:41:22.

that Don who can no longer drive can still get out the house to places

:41:23.:41:25.

such as North Shields for fish and chips and perhaps most importantly

:41:26.:41:29.

Fay is a nonfamily member that Don can talk to and share his concerns.

:41:30.:41:34.

The impact of volunteering honours quality-of-life and that of his wife

:41:35.:41:38.

is clear to anyone who meet them. But Fay is the first to say that she

:41:39.:41:42.

has gained as much from giving her time and being part of the helper

:41:43.:41:48.

service done has. The Marie Currie helper service also helped

:41:49.:41:49.

coordinate local services enabling people affected by terminal illness

:41:50.:41:54.

and their families to understand what is happening and to ensure that

:41:55.:41:57.

they are supported throughout this challenging journey. In the case of

:41:58.:42:02.

Fay and Don it has involved signposting gone to the services

:42:03.:42:06.

provided by Marie Currie's Newcastle Hospice which I also heard what

:42:07.:42:09.

about from the nurse Michelle Scott when I recently visited the facility

:42:10.:42:15.

located in the West End of the city in the constituency of my honourable

:42:16.:42:18.

friend the member for Newcastle Central. I was able to see for

:42:19.:42:22.

myself the newly opened, alleges that and relaxation area, with the

:42:23.:42:27.

garden theme, the different types of accommodation available to patients

:42:28.:42:30.

and their carers, including respite care, and learn more about the wide

:42:31.:42:34.

range of medical and nursing care, physiotherapy, occupational therapy,

:42:35.:42:40.

tactical psychological, emotional and spiritual support provided by

:42:41.:42:46.

the highly expert Hospice team. But I think with vertical remorse from

:42:47.:42:50.

my visit was the Hospice's absolute dedication to celebrating life. And

:42:51.:42:56.

to ensuring that those using the services whether terminally ill

:42:57.:42:59.

parents with young children are those such as my constituent Don who

:43:00.:43:03.

use the services they -- daily and use the activities to receive the

:43:04.:43:11.

best possible support to achieve the best possible quality-of-life has

:43:12.:43:14.

the time comes to an end. As Don told me, he was concerned that once

:43:15.:43:18.

he stepped inside the Hospice you would never leave. But that is just

:43:19.:43:21.

not the case and thanks to the helper service and Fay he was a sign

:43:22.:43:26.

posted to the care and support that they can provide at all stages of a

:43:27.:43:31.

terminal illness. Support which is not negative about death and dying

:43:32.:43:36.

but treated as part of life. Of course not all of Marie Currie's

:43:37.:43:39.

nursing care takes place in a hospice setting, territory nurses

:43:40.:43:44.

also provide overnight care in people's own homes for example and

:43:45.:43:49.

Ken Mackie certainly not the only charitable organisation providing

:43:50.:43:51.

end of life care in the Newcastle area, with other vital organisations

:43:52.:43:54.

including the military to support, for whom I recently had the pleasure

:43:55.:44:00.

of enjoying coffee cake -- MacMillan Cancer Support. And of course Saint

:44:01.:44:07.

Oswald 's Hospice in God is worth which has worked to make the most of

:44:08.:44:12.

time and improved quality of life for everyone in the north-east

:44:13.:44:15.

living with an incurable condition and their families for the last 30

:44:16.:44:20.

years. Yet despite the incredible efforts of these charities and the

:44:21.:44:26.

NHS, for people who are dying the risk of not getting the care they

:44:27.:44:29.

need to manage the symptoms and maintain the quality of life is

:44:30.:44:35.

worryingly high. Research undertaken by the London School of economics on

:44:36.:44:40.

behalf of Marie Currie last year found that 80 deeply concerning

:44:41.:44:44.

92,000 people who need palliative care in England each year are not

:44:45.:44:49.

receiving it. That means one in four people are not getting good end of

:44:50.:44:54.

life care, he care to manage pain and other symptoms alongside

:44:55.:44:58.

psychological social and spiritual support that they clearly need. The

:44:59.:45:02.

people the message must frequently on the support of those with a

:45:03.:45:05.

terminal illness other than cancer such as heart surely or chronic

:45:06.:45:10.

pulmonary disease. Indeed written evidence submitted by the National

:45:11.:45:13.

Council for palliative care to the health select committee's enquiry

:45:14.:45:18.

into end of life care published last year drew attention to the fact that

:45:19.:45:23.

people of cancer access over 75% of palliative care services, of cancer

:45:24.:45:28.

causes around 30% of deaths. And concerns about the availability of

:45:29.:45:31.

palliative care for people with non-cancer diagnoses have been

:45:32.:45:36.

raised with me by a constituent living with idiopathic pulmonary

:45:37.:45:43.

fibrosis. Those also likely to miss out people over age 85 including

:45:44.:45:46.

those with dementia, and this is despite the fact that dementia is

:45:47.:45:50.

now identified as a leading cause of death in England and Wales. And

:45:51.:45:54.

written evidence submitted by age concern UK to the same health select

:45:55.:45:58.

committee enquiry highlighted that one third of all deaths of people

:45:59.:46:05.

aged over 85, only around 15% of people gain access to speculate --

:46:06.:46:09.

specialist palliative care fall into this group so willing inequalities

:46:10.:46:13.

already exist in terms of the quality of end of life support

:46:14.:46:16.

available, depending on your illness, aged and as ever, where you

:46:17.:46:23.

happen to live. An increasing concern is that the existing system

:46:24.:46:25.

already unable to provide care for all those who need it is coming

:46:26.:46:30.

under even greater pressure as social care services fast approach

:46:31.:46:34.

breaking point. Marie Currie state that in the old services they are

:46:35.:46:37.

seeing people wait weeks in hospital and hospices for social care

:46:38.:46:42.

packages to be put in place so they can get home or into a care home to

:46:43.:46:46.

spend their final days in a place of their choosing. Very sadly the

:46:47.:46:50.

situation means it is not uncommon for people to die while waiting.

:46:51.:46:57.

This does of course have a terrible human impact, not only on the person

:46:58.:47:01.

dying but on the families, making what is a hugely dramatic situation

:47:02.:47:07.

immeasurably worse. But this state of affairs is also totally cost

:47:08.:47:11.

inefficient for the NHS, which could be using those hospital beds for

:47:12.:47:16.

people who need acute care. Yet the situation I have outlined will come

:47:17.:47:19.

as no surprise to any honourable member, given adult social care

:47:20.:47:24.

budgets have been cut by some ?4.6 billion, or 31% in real terms since

:47:25.:47:31.

2011. And they continue to fall in the face of an increasingly elderly

:47:32.:47:35.

population and therefore increasing demand. I have no doubt that the

:47:36.:47:39.

Minister will want to champion the social care Council tax precept that

:47:40.:47:43.

the government has allowed authorities to raise for this

:47:44.:47:47.

purpose, however, I would gently remind him that this is anticipated

:47:48.:47:51.

to raise ?1.4 million a year in Newcastle yet the City Council faces

:47:52.:47:55.

a social care shortfall of about some ?15 million. Will my honourable

:47:56.:48:02.

friend give way? Gladly. I thank my honourable friend forgiving this

:48:03.:48:06.

debate to the house, she's making a powerful speech and I want to pay

:48:07.:48:10.

tribute to the hospices in my own constituency, said Peter 's Hospice,

:48:11.:48:12.

and also to the Hospice which kept my father and mother in law in the

:48:13.:48:18.

dying days. But she sure my concern that the government has not made

:48:19.:48:20.

adequate progress against the recommendations made last year by

:48:21.:48:23.

the host site committee enquiry into end of life care and will also

:48:24.:48:29.

particularly explore the idea and join me in asking the Minister to

:48:30.:48:33.

explore how well the five principles of end of life care are really being

:48:34.:48:40.

followed through across the country? I thank my honourable friend because

:48:41.:48:43.

that is the key issue I think we would all like the Minister to try

:48:44.:48:48.

and explain in his response this evening, because Mane keep us Mackie

:48:49.:48:51.

concern, and in write is shared across the centre, is the provision

:48:52.:48:56.

of palliative care is simply not growing to meet the demands for

:48:57.:49:00.

services and it is clearly extremely troubling because we know already

:49:01.:49:05.

that one in four people are already unable to access the end of life

:49:06.:49:08.

care and support they need and like the rest of health and social care

:49:09.:49:13.

services the palliative end of life sector including those providing

:49:14.:49:16.

care in hospital in care homes are facing a demographic crisis. More

:49:17.:49:21.

people die each year at an older age and with more long-term and often

:49:22.:49:25.

conflict conditions. Indeed the number of deaths per year will rise

:49:26.:49:31.

by 100,000 over the next five years. So in July this year when the

:49:32.:49:34.

government announced in its response to the independent review about the

:49:35.:49:40.

end of life that it would establish a report within NHS England to

:49:41.:49:46.

implement the recommendations of the Times reviewer Kim is a great

:49:47.:49:49.

disappointment to all involved in the sector that the governments

:49:50.:49:54.

chose to the key recommendation that ?130 million of funding should be

:49:55.:49:57.

made available at the next spending review to invest in social care and

:49:58.:50:03.

NHS commission services to deliver a national choice for in end of life

:50:04.:50:07.

care. Therefore I and my honourable friend and I am sure all those

:50:08.:50:12.

listening with like the Minister to opine on his response how without

:50:13.:50:16.

this additional funding recommended by its own independent review the

:50:17.:50:20.

government will ensure that palliative and social care services

:50:21.:50:22.

grow to meet both existing and increasing demand in the coming

:50:23.:50:28.

years. Will my honourable friend give way? I thank my honourable

:50:29.:50:31.

friend and does she agree with me that the spending review, the bottom

:50:32.:50:37.

review last week was an ideal opportunity was -- to come forward

:50:38.:50:40.

with figures to meet the ever-increasing demand of social

:50:41.:50:46.

care. And that the opportunity was missed? I think my honourable friend

:50:47.:50:50.

makes the point very well that everybody was disappointed not to

:50:51.:50:52.

hear the commitment from the government and I think we would all

:50:53.:50:57.

like to know how without this additional funding, how will the

:50:58.:50:59.

government and the current distressing and unacceptable

:51:00.:51:06.

situation that one in four people, 92,000 a year, are missing out on

:51:07.:51:09.

the care and support that they and their families need at the end of

:51:10.:51:13.

their lives. How on earth will the government prevent this deeply

:51:14.:51:16.

worrying figure from growing have bigger? Madam Deputy Speaker, I am

:51:17.:51:22.

acutely conscious that there are many issues that I could have raised

:51:23.:51:27.

in this evening 's debate on what is a very important issue, these

:51:28.:51:30.

include the provision of end of life care to children and young people

:51:31.:51:34.

with life shortening conditions, which the charity together for

:51:35.:51:38.

short-lived highlights often -- is often inappropriately coupled with

:51:39.:51:41.

the palliative care needs of adults when Anita much more complex.

:51:42.:51:44.

However a key concern for them at all of us is that the number of

:51:45.:51:47.

children and young people affected by electronic conditions is not

:51:48.:51:52.

properly monitored, making it impossible for the government for

:51:53.:51:57.

the NHS and local authorities to properly plan and budget for their

:51:58.:52:01.

needs. If the serious issue relates to the way in which welfare system

:52:02.:52:06.

and leading to many people with debilitating and cannot conditions,

:52:07.:52:09.

such as motor neurone disease. Well look in the recent and overdue

:52:10.:52:13.

announcement that people with severe lifting conditions will no longer

:52:14.:52:16.

have to undergo the assessments for employment support allowance, the

:52:17.:52:22.

MND Association and many other charities and many came the concern

:52:23.:52:25.

about the government determination to devolve attendance allowance to a

:52:26.:52:28.

local authority and the impact this could have an vital support, people

:52:29.:52:34.

with extreme challenging conditions currently receive. I have raised a

:52:35.:52:38.

number of different issues with the Minister this evening, about the

:52:39.:52:41.

need for additional funding for end of life care that the NHS charities

:52:42.:52:47.

and the much-needed volunteers clearly need. Not having palliative

:52:48.:52:53.

care when you need it has real and damaging consequences. It can mean

:52:54.:52:56.

that people die in pain or discomfort, causing distress not

:52:57.:53:00.

just for the individual, but for the family, friends and loved ones. This

:53:01.:53:04.

is avoidable. If the government can make a commitment today. So I look

:53:05.:53:09.

forward to hearing the government's response. To the very important

:53:10.:53:18.

concerns that I have outlined today. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And

:53:19.:53:24.

I congratulate the member for Newcastle North in taking this

:53:25.:53:27.

debate to the house, this is a very important subject and it is good

:53:28.:53:31.

that we get the chance to talk about it. It is good that we do it on she

:53:32.:53:34.

said United Nations volunteers day, and she reminded the house, if we

:53:35.:53:40.

needed reminding, of how much of the burden of that palliative care is

:53:41.:53:46.

taken up by volunteers and we should always reflect and the fact that

:53:47.:53:49.

there are 6 million informal carers in this country. Without that court,

:53:50.:53:55.

without those people, things should be very much more difficult than

:53:56.:54:00.

they are. We have a care strategy coming out during the next few

:54:01.:54:03.

months and I will talk to that choosing the course of my remarks.

:54:04.:54:12.

That that charity does this and indeed the help of service that they

:54:13.:54:21.

have pioneered in Newcastle. I am happy to acknowledge, the fantastic

:54:22.:54:24.

work that the hospices do. I have one in my constituency, paid to do

:54:25.:54:31.

brilliant work. And the member for Newcastle upon Tyne used a good

:54:32.:54:34.

phrase which we should recognise that hospices that their best

:54:35.:54:39.

celebrate life. Because that is something that is very important.

:54:40.:54:44.

The government's position Madam Deputy Speaker is that high end of

:54:45.:54:48.

life care reflecting individual needs, choices should be available

:54:49.:54:53.

to everybody. That is our objective and that is what we are working to

:54:54.:55:03.

achieve. And much is being done, that reflects the tone of the

:55:04.:55:07.

honourable ladies remarks. Of course there is more to do and this isn't

:55:08.:55:10.

something that would ever be finished but I want to set the

:55:11.:55:17.

context perhaps first of all. Certainly. He's right to acknowledge

:55:18.:55:28.

the role of charities, can Haas, response, could we ask what does

:55:29.:55:34.

this government do, for young carers, for those who are at end of

:55:35.:55:39.

life and that those young carers are pressuring them, with their ability

:55:40.:55:44.

to cope with a life changing decision that is going to happen to

:55:45.:55:49.

them very shortly. We need something for them, can I make a plea for

:55:50.:55:54.

them? He is right, there is something like a Kohlschreiber

:55:55.:55:58.

million in the formal carers, half of them under the age of 16 to 18.

:55:59.:56:04.

There are issues for education and in terms of future employment. The

:56:05.:56:08.

carers strategy is addressing that and I will more to say about that in

:56:09.:56:14.

the course of my comments. In terms of the context of this. There are

:56:15.:56:19.

480,000 people in my country in England that die every year. 36% of

:56:20.:56:25.

those are over 85. And something like 350,000 of those deaths are

:56:26.:56:34.

expected in the sense, of, not being a surprise. Roughly half of those,

:56:35.:56:39.

get some kind of specialist palliative care as part of that

:56:40.:56:43.

pathway. The honourable lady talked about that not being enough and I

:56:44.:56:49.

will come back to that. 47% died in hospital. Which in general is an

:56:50.:56:54.

improvement from 57% of people dying in hospital ten years ago, and there

:56:55.:56:59.

is an emphasis that the charities are leading in terms of Macmillan in

:57:00.:57:03.

particular, of making fewer people die in hospital. In terms of

:57:04.:57:10.

authoritative evidence of how that is working, she mentions some of the

:57:11.:57:14.

points made, by Madam Kerry. There is a yearly survey, called bereaved

:57:15.:57:22.

voices, done by the National office of statistics. How they would

:57:23.:57:27.

evaluate the last months of care. Of their loved ones that have had end

:57:28.:57:34.

of life care. Something like 75% of those are regarded as excellent,

:57:35.:57:41.

good or outstanding. 10%, Paul. That 10%, is still 40,000 deaths a year,

:57:42.:57:47.

that is still too high. Nevertheless sent via percent are excellent, good

:57:48.:57:51.

and outstanding, and in terms of where those 75% are. Highest

:57:52.:57:56.

proportion of those, who are receiving end of life caring

:57:57.:58:02.

hospices, and homes actually, around about the same as hospices, with

:58:03.:58:07.

hospitals doing less well. But there is a patching is to those figures

:58:08.:58:12.

and in general, that patching is, is linked to deprivation. In errors of

:58:13.:58:18.

relatively high deprivation the figures are not as good. -- the

:58:19.:58:24.

areas. That is partly because hospice availability tends to be

:58:25.:58:28.

somewhat skewed because of the nature of the charities, towards

:58:29.:58:32.

areas, which are more affluent. Also worth saying, she mentioned in her

:58:33.:58:39.

remarks the need for spread sure and emotional attention during the end

:58:40.:58:46.

of life period -- for spiritual. 70% of people doing that so they

:58:47.:58:53.

regarded, their loved ones of having received good or outstanding

:58:54.:58:56.

spiritual and emotional care and that reflects the area well in those

:58:57.:59:00.

people in the voluntary sector and VHS that give that care and we

:59:01.:59:06.

should acknowledge that -- and the NHS. Without wishing also the sound

:59:07.:59:10.

complacent about this because I acknowledge that things can be

:59:11.:59:13.

better and should be better, I have come into this job in the last four

:59:14.:59:17.

months for five months and as I look at the various areas, there are very

:59:18.:59:22.

few in which it would be fair to say that we in the UK are among the best

:59:23.:59:28.

in the world. If I take cancer Howard terms, I know that we do

:59:29.:59:32.

worse than most other countries in Europe, for most types of cancer one

:59:33.:59:35.

year survival rates. However there was a survey in the Economist last

:59:36.:59:40.

year, and the survey was the Economist intelligence unit, quality

:59:41.:59:46.

of death index. That evaluated all of the countries, in the world 50 or

:59:47.:59:51.

60, against a number of criteria. And, the UK came top in terms of end

:59:52.:59:59.

of life care. As I say, that is not a situation I know right across the

:00:00.:00:04.

areas but we should acknowledge that too. Just to put that into contest,

:00:05.:00:10.

Germany was seventh, France was tenth. Sweden was 16. And that it

:00:11.:00:16.

achieved because of the work that people in charities and within the

:00:17.:00:22.

NHS do, while acknowledging that things could always be better. I

:00:23.:00:26.

will address some of the issues that the honourable member raised. She

:00:27.:00:32.

talked of social care funding, a slightly different area in fact in

:00:33.:00:35.

terms of delayed transfers to hospital. And of course I have

:00:36.:00:40.

acknowledged in this chamber many times that social care funding is

:00:41.:00:44.

under pressure, and it can cause the late transfers of care, it can cause

:00:45.:00:49.

people therefore effectively bed blocking if you wanted to use that

:00:50.:00:55.

term. I just wanted to say this to her, if you were to take the top 10%

:00:56.:01:00.

of councils in terms of adult social care, and the bottom 10%, there is a

:01:01.:01:07.

factor of 30 times their performance in the late transfers of care. A

:01:08.:01:12.

factor of 30 times, that isn't around budget, that is around best

:01:13.:01:16.

practice and leadership and all that go with that. So when we are moving

:01:17.:01:20.

in quickly to say that the issue is always money, always budget we

:01:21.:01:23.

should acknowledge that while that is part of it, it is not the only

:01:24.:01:29.

issue. And it is important to understand other factors. Other

:01:30.:01:35.

things that do need to be improved, we do need to continue to drive to

:01:36.:01:40.

have more people, receiving end of life care, not in hospitals which is

:01:41.:01:44.

generally where they don't wish to be. We do also acknowledge that

:01:45.:01:48.

within the clinical commissioning groups, there can be nonuniform

:01:49.:01:51.

commissioning, and we can do better in terms of that. The honourable

:01:52.:01:59.

member talked about the choice review, that came out in 2014,

:02:00.:02:05.

performed by the National Council of palliative care, or produced by

:02:06.:02:08.

them, helped by Macmillan, by Mary Durie. In that there was something

:02:09.:02:14.

like 62 recommendations. The government's position on that, which

:02:15.:02:19.

came out in July. One of the last acts of my predecessor, was two,

:02:20.:02:29.

respond to that review, with a 5-point charter in terms of

:02:30.:02:33.

accepting that by 2020 we will have in place a personalised care plan.

:02:34.:02:38.

Everybody is entitled to an honest discussion in terms of end of life

:02:39.:02:43.

care, understanding the informed choices, involving family and

:02:44.:02:47.

carers. And that all people going through the end of life process,

:02:48.:02:55.

which have an contract for all. In terms of implementing that. That

:02:56.:02:59.

will need to be done right across the NHS processes, technologies and

:03:00.:03:05.

pathways and we have set up a board, and end of life care board to do

:03:06.:03:09.

that. All arms length bodies will be represented on that. The requirement

:03:10.:03:16.

now and this hasn't yet happened, it hasn't yet been published, and my

:03:17.:03:21.

role is to make sure this is published. It is that we turned

:03:22.:03:26.

these commitments in terms of the response review, into tangible

:03:27.:03:31.

milestones deliverables and responsibilities. I met with a

:03:32.:03:35.

number of people, and gave that undertaking that we have a

:03:36.:03:39.

transparent process that between 2016 and 2020, we know what we are

:03:40.:03:43.

in fermenting, when and how it is being done. It is very important

:03:44.:03:47.

that it happens and our commitment to doing that is extremely high. It

:03:48.:03:51.

is a priority to the government, it is an area we think as a country we

:03:52.:03:55.

could do better but we do pretty well. This is something that we need

:03:56.:04:01.

to do to make it even better. I thank the Minister for his responses

:04:02.:04:05.

to the points made by my honourable friend. On that particular point

:04:06.:04:10.

about the plan between 2016 and 2020, given that the last days of

:04:11.:04:15.

someone's life are etched in the memories of those left behind, I for

:04:16.:04:18.

instance can remember every single moment of the day 23 years ago when

:04:19.:04:24.

I lost my father, and what if you would commit to reporting back to

:04:25.:04:27.

the house at various points in that four-year period or would there be

:04:28.:04:30.

other ways in which he would make reports on progress to the

:04:31.:04:35.

Parliament? Certainly I think that is a very reasonable request, it was

:04:36.:04:38.

not quite the intervention that I was expecting. I will commit to

:04:39.:04:42.

doing that either in debates like this all in question Time or

:04:43.:04:47.

whatever. I'm not sure if it of a statement I think that is an tidy

:04:48.:04:52.

reasonable request to make as a minister, and something that I am

:04:53.:04:56.

happy to do. I can at the very least write to her in terms of that

:04:57.:05:00.

process because I'm determined that it will be a transparent and

:05:01.:05:04.

meaningful programme of work. Which has clear deliverables and achieves

:05:05.:05:08.

what we need to achieve. What about now? Madam Deputy Speaker, we know,

:05:09.:05:21.

that, as well as if you like implementing the choice review.

:05:22.:05:25.

There is an ongoing day-to-day work and activity that needs to happen.

:05:26.:05:29.

Liverpool care pathway, last year was pretty much supplanted really,

:05:30.:05:38.

by the five priorities, for people, that were mentioned at an earlier

:05:39.:05:43.

intervention. Those are things, that are trying to be invented, within

:05:44.:05:49.

the structure of the NHS, within training programmes, health

:05:50.:05:53.

education England. They are in the choices that people make, in terms

:05:54.:05:59.

of working in this sector. And these are not rocket science type things.

:06:00.:06:03.

They are about communication, the need for individual plans. Covering

:06:04.:06:10.

drink, food and also spiritual things, to the extent, to those that

:06:11.:06:17.

need that. Carers of course had to be involved and fundamentally all of

:06:18.:06:22.

it, is that the dying person is involved in all aspects of that. We

:06:23.:06:28.

put end of life care with great priority in the NHS mandate.

:06:29.:06:33.

Clinical commissioning groups, must commission end of life care, they

:06:34.:06:37.

must commission bereavement care, there are nice guidelines as to how

:06:38.:06:41.

they should do that. That is not to say as the member for Newcastle

:06:42.:06:45.

North made the point that it can still be patchy. But those are

:06:46.:06:50.

requirements. The CQC in the way that it evaluates care homes and

:06:51.:06:54.

hospitals and hospices, specifically looks at the end of life care, and

:06:55.:07:00.

people would expect to get high-ranking 's Allwood wants to get

:07:01.:07:04.

high rankings, and do this effectively. In the time that I

:07:05.:07:09.

have. There is one initiative that I think is quite important I will be

:07:10.:07:13.

expecting to come out of the choice review when I talk about milestones

:07:14.:07:17.

and all of that. I saw this in London recently, the need for

:07:18.:07:22.

electronic palliative care records. In which the care plan is

:07:23.:07:27.

accessible, too many different types of worker that would need access to

:07:28.:07:33.

that. In London I think the system is called, award my care. The idea

:07:34.:07:42.

is, that if a person is in need of an ambulance, or a paramedic in some

:07:43.:07:46.

other way, that on the way to that house, to the call-out, The Abernant

:07:47.:07:52.

Stryver, paramedic, would have access to that electronic care

:07:53.:07:56.

record, it would explain perhaps that that person did not want to go

:07:57.:08:01.

to hospital. May not and those sorts of decisions becoming bedded in the

:08:02.:08:05.

process that we go through. I think that is important and I think that

:08:06.:08:09.

is good. And the roll-out of that technology is something that I ready

:08:10.:08:13.

to want to see happen. As quickly as possible. I thank the Minister for

:08:14.:08:21.

the response he was making, I was concerned that he did sound

:08:22.:08:25.

complacent about this issue but he does certainly seem committed to

:08:26.:08:28.

making this review work over the next few years. We'll keep knowledge

:08:29.:08:34.

that if the NHS is not able to get the support from the social care

:08:35.:08:38.

sector and is not able to utilise the funding that is required, it

:08:39.:08:42.

will fail in its efforts unless the funding is there within the

:08:43.:08:46.

community sector and within the NHS in order to achieve what he sets out

:08:47.:08:51.

as very important strategy going forward.

:08:52.:08:55.

I am getting towards the end of my time and so I will finish by

:08:56.:09:01.

answering that as best they can. Of course money matters, and every

:09:02.:09:07.

process works better if there is plenty of money for it. The fact of

:09:08.:09:11.

the matter are that both adult social care and NHS are under cost

:09:12.:09:16.

pressures and to be honest with you Madam Deputy Speaker that will

:09:17.:09:19.

always be the case and have a system and I gently say to the honourable

:09:20.:09:25.

member in terms of adult social care which is a particular responsibility

:09:26.:09:29.

of mind, she may be surprised to know that we spent something like

:09:30.:09:33.

one third more on adult social care than either France or Germany. I

:09:34.:09:40.

thank the honourable gentleman. But he himself acknowledged that the

:09:41.:09:47.

challenge in addressing this issue properly is often the Apache

:09:48.:09:52.

patchwork nature of our country and the postcode lottery if you like to

:09:53.:09:56.

call it and he also acknowledged that some of those areas that fear

:09:57.:09:59.

the worst are the most deprived and they are also the ones facing the

:10:00.:10:04.

biggest cost pressures in terms of social care funding. Will he

:10:05.:10:07.

acknowledge that something needs to be done in order to insure that

:10:08.:10:13.

doesn't undermine these efforts? This isn't the Autumn Statement and

:10:14.:10:16.

I can make commitments on funding other than to say that many members

:10:17.:10:20.

of both sides of this chamber with like to see when the time is right

:10:21.:10:27.

more funding for a vital public services. I gently make a post about

:10:28.:10:32.

that in terms of adult social care spending the country we do spend

:10:33.:10:40.

considerably more than France and Germany which are the ones that

:10:41.:10:43.

would be reasonable to compare those with and it is not just about money,

:10:44.:10:49.

and the care performance of different councils, it is quite

:10:50.:10:54.

usual different. Let's agree that what really is important is that

:10:55.:11:00.

over the next few years we do and the choice review with the

:11:01.:11:04.

government commitment to comment that as a government's leading tent,

:11:05.:11:10.

a signal by risky or leading dental mentation bored of this is something

:11:11.:11:13.

that we will be held accountable for and I will be held accountable for

:11:14.:11:18.

and I will report back to this house in due course for that and I thank

:11:19.:11:23.

Madam Deputy Speaker and the member from Newcastle -- UCAS Labonte not

:11:24.:11:30.

for raising this issue. The question is that this house adjourned, as

:11:31.:11:35.

many have that many CIA. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order,

:11:36.:11:36.

order. That's the end of the day in the

:11:37.:11:52.

House of Commons. We now call live to the House of Lords. The member

:11:53.:11:56.

you can watch recorded coverage of all of the business in the Lords

:11:57.:11:59.

after the daily politics which are tonight. The bills passing through

:12:00.:12:05.

Parliament and to highlight and debate that it is necessary to

:12:06.:12:11.

government policy. For Northern Ireland to need is to balance the

:12:12.:12:14.

house party political winds and here lately with the noble lady, party

:12:15.:12:21.

politics is the job of the Commons, although practicable -- party

:12:22.:12:24.

bicycle balance must be a consideration when making

:12:25.:12:26.

appointments he need for filling the house with loyal party members will

:12:27.:12:30.

be much less necessary than is deemed at present. Any powers the

:12:31.:12:36.

Lords must -- might have come from the experience of its members and

:12:37.:12:38.

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