09/01/2017 House of Commons


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09/01/2017

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons including an urgent question on domestic violence cases and a statement on mental health and NHS performance.


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system that provides security and dignity in old age. Order. Urgent

:00:00.:00:08.

question, Mr Peter Kyle. I would like to ask the Secretary of State

:00:09.:00:12.

for Justice to make a statement on the emergency review to determine

:00:13.:00:15.

how to ban perpetrators of domestic violence from directly

:00:16.:00:17.

cross-examining their victims within the family court? Mr Speaker, can I

:00:18.:00:26.

start by saying how grateful I am to the honourable member for the chance

:00:27.:00:29.

to update the House of what is an important issue. To put this in

:00:30.:00:34.

context, the issues at stake in family proceedings are always

:00:35.:00:38.

sensitive and often complex. The decisions of the court can have far

:00:39.:00:41.

reaching implications for the individuals concerned. The presence

:00:42.:00:47.

of domestic abuse only exacerbate an already traumatic situation. The

:00:48.:00:53.

government has taken steps to make sure victims in the family justice

:00:54.:00:58.

system have support and protection. Protected legal aid for individuals

:00:59.:01:03.

seeking protection from abusers. We continue to invest in the court

:01:04.:01:06.

estate to improve the physical security of family courts and the

:01:07.:01:10.

emotional support available for users. We have placed particular

:01:11.:01:15.

emphasis on training for those who work in the family justice system,

:01:16.:01:19.

making sure they understand the nature and impact of domestic abuse

:01:20.:01:22.

and they act appropriately when they come across it. We know there is

:01:23.:01:28.

more to do. As my colleague, the Minister for victims, made clear

:01:29.:01:35.

when this was debated in Parliament on the 15th of September, the

:01:36.:01:39.

government is determined to improve the family justice response to

:01:40.:01:42.

domestic abuse and we have been working closely with judges and

:01:43.:01:46.

others to consider what additional protection may be necessary. We are

:01:47.:01:49.

particularly concerned about the fact that unrepresented, alleged

:01:50.:01:56.

perpetrators can cross examine their alleged victims in family

:01:57.:02:00.

proceedings. I want to make family court processes safer for victims so

:02:01.:02:06.

they can advocate effectively for themselves and for the safety of

:02:07.:02:11.

their children. This cannot happen while a significant number of

:02:12.:02:15.

domestic abuse victims face cross-examination by their abusers.

:02:16.:02:19.

The Lord Chancellor has requested urgent advice on how to put an end

:02:20.:02:25.

to this practice. This sort of cross examination is illegal in the

:02:26.:02:28.

criminal courts and I am determined to see it banned in family courts

:02:29.:02:32.

also. We are considering the most comprehensive and efficient way of

:02:33.:02:38.

making that happen. That will help family courts to concentrate on the

:02:39.:02:41.

key concerns for the family and always put the children's interests

:02:42.:02:45.

first, which is what they are supposed to do. This work, which is

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being fast tracked within the Department, is looking in particular

:02:51.:02:55.

at the provisions in the criminal law which presents alleged

:02:56.:02:57.

perpetrators from cross-examining their alleged victims in criminal

:02:58.:03:02.

proceedings, and we are considering how we might apply similar

:03:03.:03:06.

provisions in the slightly different circumstances of family proceedings.

:03:07.:03:10.

Members will appreciate such a proposal does require thought, but

:03:11.:03:14.

we want to resolve it as soon as possible. We will be making further

:03:15.:03:19.

details available shortly once the work is complete. I would like to

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thank the president of the family division who has argued passionately

:03:25.:03:26.

that this practice should be outlawed for good. This is an issue

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that has been wreaking untold devastation on victims of domestic

:03:34.:03:37.

violence. I have spoken to numerous survivors of abuse his accounts of

:03:38.:03:41.

torment under cross-examination, often by convicted rapist in the

:03:42.:03:45.

family Court, are devastating to hear but impossible for most of us

:03:46.:03:50.

to imagine. I have spoken to woman who was cross-examined by a man who

:03:51.:03:53.

was in jail for numerous counts of rape and abuse that left her

:03:54.:03:56.

unconscious and hospitalised. As a result of the family court process,

:03:57.:04:01.

this vulnerable woman needed weeks of medication and months of

:04:02.:04:05.

counselling to recover. She has now suffered this ordeal three times. I

:04:06.:04:10.

have spoken to the sister of a woman who was abuse egregiously it

:04:11.:04:14.

resulted in her death. The convicted murderer then sued the custody of

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their child from prison where he was serving a life sentence for murder.

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He directly cross-examined the sister of the woman he murdered.

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Even having the grotesque nerve to ask, what makes you think you can be

:04:29.:04:35.

a parent to my child? Abuse is being continued, perpetuated right under

:04:36.:04:41.

the noses of judges and police. The very institutions that should be

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protecting the vulnerable with every sinew of state power. On September

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the 15th last year in response to speeches from members from both

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sides of the House, the Parliamentary under Secretary of

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State for Justice said this was a scourge which blights our society.

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Yet he made no commitment to review or to change policy. Sadly, it took

:05:04.:05:06.

the excellent coverage of the Guardian over the Christmas break

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for that to emerge from the Justice Department. However, the source was

:05:11.:05:14.

anonymous. Can the Minister give clarity in the following areas...

:05:15.:05:19.

Lord Justice Mumby, the president of the family court division supports

:05:20.:05:22.

members to outlaw the cross-examination of victims by

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perpetrators. He said this would require primary legislation. Does

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the Minister agree with this assessment? If so, would he

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prioritise the drafting and the deduction of any such legislation as

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a priority? The anonymous source told the Guardian, this was a matter

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of urgency for the Secretary of State. Can he tell the House, when

:05:44.:05:48.

this review was started, and more importantly, when it will be

:05:49.:05:52.

completed? Victims of abuse need to have precision and clarity at this

:05:53.:05:57.

moment of great importance for them. Speed is of the essence, but so is

:05:58.:06:01.

consultation. We need to get this right. Can the Minister tell us what

:06:02.:06:07.

process is underway to enable victims and campaigners and support

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organisations to feeding their essential experiences and views in

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order that this review will at all times, be carried out with and not

:06:15.:06:20.

done too, survivors of domestic abuse. And finally, as I told the

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House back in September, it is a source of shame to me personally, I

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got the age I am today without being aware such barbarism is being

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practised within our own legal system. In addition to my lack of

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inquisitiveness, which I regret profoundly, the secrecy imposed by

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law on the family court process allowed this to continue without

:06:44.:06:47.

journalistic oversight. Will he consider longer term assessment of

:06:48.:06:52.

the wider operational activity of the family court system? This should

:06:53.:06:56.

look in a considered and detailed way of the overall operation of the

:06:57.:07:00.

family courts with a view to making sure, where appropriate, the greater

:07:01.:07:05.

transparency and oversight of the family court process is introduced?

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Order. Just before we proceed, let me just say this, the honourable

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gentleman has raised an extremely serious matter and he has done so on

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the back of considerable knowledge and research. He has aired the issue

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in this House with great sensitivity. I did not wish to

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interrupting, not least for that obvious reason. But perhaps I can

:07:30.:07:34.

announce to the House New Year's resolution and that is, we must,

:07:35.:07:40.

from now on, we must, without fail, stick to the established time limits

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for urgent questions. The honourable gentleman was notified of the two

:07:44.:07:49.

minute limit and he took over three minutes. The second point, the brief

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this preamble of description is fine, but an urgent question is

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supposed to be that, not a speech, not a contribution to debate, but a

:08:03.:08:08.

series of questions. I know the honourable gentleman well and I know

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he will not take offence because he has raised important matters, but in

:08:13.:08:15.

future it must be done in accordance with the proper form and to time.

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The Minister of April. Can I start by agreeing with the

:08:19.:08:28.

honourable gentleman on many of the points he has made. Judges have

:08:29.:08:33.

always had discretion to try to get to the truth of the matter and to

:08:34.:08:37.

protect families and so on and judges have discretion to ask

:08:38.:08:42.

questions themselves to avoid situations arising which are against

:08:43.:08:45.

the interests of justice. But over recent years the judges have come

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more concerned about situations, as the honourable gentleman has said,

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where the abuse is being perpetrated through the proceedings and that is

:08:57.:09:00.

why Sir James Mumby has spoken out and why the department is treating

:09:01.:09:03.

this as something that should be dealt with as a matter of urgency.

:09:04.:09:09.

Is it necessary to change the law? The answer is it is. In order to ban

:09:10.:09:15.

cross-examination it would be necessary for primary legislation

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and there are ancillary matters relating to this which would require

:09:19.:09:24.

legislation. Is work being done? Yes, it is being done at great pains

:09:25.:09:28.

to ensure that all these matters are dealt with in a comprehensive and

:09:29.:09:33.

effective way and so the urgency is there. This is something I became

:09:34.:09:38.

the minister dealing with these matters in October. I chaired the

:09:39.:09:42.

family Justice board and we have become very concerned over that

:09:43.:09:47.

period about this issue and the Lord Chancellor shares that concern,

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which is why we are moving at speed to try and tackle this. The extent

:09:51.:09:55.

to which consultation is necessary is something I will consider in the

:09:56.:09:59.

light of the honourable gentleman's comments and will discuss it with

:10:00.:10:05.

him in private. But it is pretty straightforward what is required, a

:10:06.:10:11.

band and then the ancillary measures which are necessary to allow

:10:12.:10:13.

cross-examination without the perpetrator doing it. The extent to

:10:14.:10:19.

which a wide consultation is needed I will question. Finally, in terms

:10:20.:10:24.

of transparency in the cause, journalists are now able to attend

:10:25.:10:27.

court and report proceedings but there are obvious restrictions to

:10:28.:10:36.

protect children and the like. The Minister is to be congratulated on

:10:37.:10:41.

moving promptly on this matter and the family division is to be

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congratulated. Would my right honourable friend accept the simple

:10:47.:10:51.

solution would be probably to adopt the criminal procedures under the

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1991 legislation lock stock and barrel and use the format to put

:10:56.:11:02.

that into primary lock and accept the very modest public expenditure

:11:03.:11:08.

of a court appointed to do the cross-examination where justice

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requires would be a drop in the ocean compared to the benefits and

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the interest of justice to individuals who are victims of

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abuse? I am very grateful to the chairman of the Select Committee for

:11:20.:11:24.

those comments. I agree with a good deal of it. There are some

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differences from criminal proceedings. For example in a case

:11:28.:11:34.

where an injunction is being sought whether it is not a criminal charge

:11:35.:11:40.

or a case where perhaps money is being considered, but there is a

:11:41.:11:45.

background of abuse. In fact for legal aid in cases of domestic abuse

:11:46.:11:51.

that is a wider list than is available in terms of criminal

:11:52.:11:55.

proceedings, but the basic point he makes is right. As to the bill, I am

:11:56.:12:00.

not able to give a commitment on that, it would depend on how quickly

:12:01.:12:04.

the work was concluded and that is something I am working on very fast.

:12:05.:12:14.

I thank the honourable member for hope for asking this urgent question

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and that the Minister for asking this response. This issue really

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unite the House. Questioning victims in court has been repeatedly raised

:12:27.:12:31.

in this house and in the media. Many members on both sides of the House

:12:32.:12:35.

have constituents who have been left devastated by the experience so that

:12:36.:12:40.

the government is doing something to no end this practice is welcome. But

:12:41.:12:44.

this is a clear admission that the legal aid cuts have caused this

:12:45.:12:50.

situation. Victims of domestic violence struggled to provide

:12:51.:12:53.

evidence of their abuse because frequently they are not believed. In

:12:54.:12:58.

some cases medical evidence is difficult to obtain and their

:12:59.:13:04.

experience is made worse still because the abuser is also unable to

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get representation and is allowed to question them. Even in a situation

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where they are prevented from contacting that situation and so the

:13:15.:13:18.

abuse continues. But it need not be that way. In the criminal cause the

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cross-examination of a member accused of domestic violence is not

:13:24.:13:27.

allowed. Is the Ministry counting the numbers of litigants in person

:13:28.:13:32.

in the family courts? How many of those are victims of domestic

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violence? How many are convicted or alleged to have committed domestic

:13:38.:13:41.

violence? Will the Minister look to the practice in criminal cause and

:13:42.:13:45.

alongside prohibiting cross examination introduce greater use of

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more sensitive procedures? When will the review finally begin? At the

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honourable lady knows on her final point the review has to be concluded

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by the 18th of April, sorry by April, 2018, so it is not overdue

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yet, but it is something the government has very much in mind and

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which we will have to start fairly shortly. In terms of the other

:14:16.:14:20.

points, legal aid is available in cases of domestic abuse, that is why

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the government concentrated its efforts in legal aid on areas where

:14:25.:14:32.

people's lives liberties were at stake and in areas such as domestic

:14:33.:14:36.

abuse and housing were homes were at risk, so that is not an issue. But I

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accept the evidence criteria are important and that is why the

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government has allowed a longer period and a wider range of evidence

:14:46.:14:51.

to be used for that. I think that is something that has been welcome.

:14:52.:14:55.

Cross-examination by litigants in person takes place too much and she

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asked what the exact number is. It is not clear, but it is a

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considerable number, which is why the government considers this to be

:15:05.:15:09.

an important issue to tackle. Can I congratulate my honourable friend

:15:10.:15:14.

and welcome everything he says about the government's attitude to this

:15:15.:15:18.

long-standing problem. Could I urge him to look at the rules in relation

:15:19.:15:23.

to legal aid because there is strong anecdotal evidence from former

:15:24.:15:27.

colleagues of mine at the family bar and a judiciary that there is a

:15:28.:15:30.

direct consequence and link between the rise in litigants in person and

:15:31.:15:36.

the changes to legal aid actually begun under the last Labour

:15:37.:15:40.

government and it is this link between litigants in person that is

:15:41.:15:44.

causing so many of these problems and would he at least look at it and

:15:45.:15:48.

it may provide some of the solutions. As my honourable friend

:15:49.:15:55.

has rightly said, this is a long-standing issue, but it is one

:15:56.:16:01.

which has become particularly urgent and where the cries for help from

:16:02.:16:05.

the judges and others have become more urgent and that is why the

:16:06.:16:10.

government is tackling this issue. As regards litigants in person, it

:16:11.:16:15.

is necessary to find a way of stopping them using proceedings to

:16:16.:16:19.

continue the abuse. That is what we are aiming to do. May I welcome the

:16:20.:16:25.

Justice Secretary's emergency review and stress how important it is that

:16:26.:16:30.

we all focus across the UK on how to prevent the perpetrators of domestic

:16:31.:16:33.

abuse from using the processes of the justice system. In Scotland the

:16:34.:16:41.

government is engaged in a significant overhaul of the justice

:16:42.:16:45.

system ahead of the introduction of new legislation to introduce an all

:16:46.:16:49.

encompassing offence of domestic abuse to include all forms of

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coercive behaviour. In Scotland legal aid is widely available in

:16:55.:16:58.

both criminal and civil cases. In England and Wales are cuts to legal

:16:59.:17:03.

aid mean 80% of family cases seek at least one party without a lawyer and

:17:04.:17:10.

60% of cases in the family courts and neither partner has a lawyer.

:17:11.:17:16.

Victims of domestic abuse can only access legal aid if they cross a

:17:17.:17:19.

threshold test which has already been found to be too restrictive in

:17:20.:17:24.

the judicial review case. What we really need in addition to this

:17:25.:17:28.

review is a review of the criteria for access to legal aid for victims

:17:29.:17:34.

and survivors of domestic abuse. When will the government commit to

:17:35.:17:38.

that sort of review? The honourable and learned lady segued into a

:17:39.:17:45.

question just in time! I thank the honourable lady for that and for her

:17:46.:17:50.

news from Scotland. In terms of legal aid in England and Wales it

:17:51.:17:55.

was deliberately decided by my right honourable friend to concentrate the

:17:56.:17:59.

effort on the cases where people's' life, liberty and their homes or

:18:00.:18:02.

where there have been domestic abuses. Give it was a period of

:18:03.:18:08.

austerity and decisions had to be made, he got that judgment right. In

:18:09.:18:13.

terms of the criteria for legal aid and the evidence that needs to be

:18:14.:18:17.

provided, it is not as though the government has said it is set in

:18:18.:18:21.

stone. When criticisms have been made we have changed the rules to

:18:22.:18:25.

make a system which tackles those criticisms. My overall point would

:18:26.:18:31.

be that the government is responding when it should. Can I welcome a

:18:32.:18:41.

right honourable friend's announcements today and the work he

:18:42.:18:45.

is doing with the Lord Chancellor. But can I also draw his attention to

:18:46.:18:51.

a report published in April of this year which I published with my

:18:52.:18:54.

honourable friend the member for Birmingham Yardley, which not only

:18:55.:19:00.

picked upon this issue of cross examination, but look at the issues

:19:01.:19:04.

of special measures in court to make sure it is easier for some of the

:19:05.:19:08.

most vulnerable victims to give their evidence so they do not feel

:19:09.:19:13.

intimidated in that process? Can I pay tribute to my right honourable

:19:14.:19:19.

friend's work in this area which is important. I know the government and

:19:20.:19:24.

the ministerial committee that looks and violence against women and girls

:19:25.:19:29.

takes a particular note of it. As regards special measures, the family

:19:30.:19:32.

courts have always had a wider set of tools available to them than the

:19:33.:19:38.

criminal cause and the judges have a wide discretion. Measures such as

:19:39.:19:43.

taking cross-examination on a video basis, the section 28 in the

:19:44.:19:48.

criminal courts, you can do that in family cases. You can take evidence

:19:49.:19:52.

in a wide variety of ways, so there is a lot of protection there. We are

:19:53.:19:57.

going further with this and so measures to deal with the court,

:19:58.:20:02.

like ensuring there are separate waiting rooms, screens and those

:20:03.:20:06.

sorts of physical aspects, they are being covered. So is the training of

:20:07.:20:11.

the staff which is very important as well. I want to thank the Minister

:20:12.:20:21.

for highlighting the discretion already available. Could he say what

:20:22.:20:26.

steps he is taking now to remind the judiciary of the discretion that

:20:27.:20:31.

they have and how they can apply it? The honourable lady makes an

:20:32.:20:34.

important point and there are practice directions in the family

:20:35.:20:37.

division and one is being prepared at the moment and so I will make

:20:38.:20:43.

sure her comments are taken well on board in that direction, although we

:20:44.:20:47.

do not make the practice directions, but we can pass that on. I have been

:20:48.:20:56.

struck in my constituency surgeon sees surgeries, and one of my

:20:57.:21:04.

constituents complaining about this was a former police officer. Can I

:21:05.:21:10.

urge the Minister to use every tool possible to get this matter resolved

:21:11.:21:15.

as soon as possible? We have all had examples and I am glad my honourable

:21:16.:21:19.

friend was able to get that on the record. We have all had examples of

:21:20.:21:27.

cases were in a way and abuse has occurred in the court. That is

:21:28.:21:30.

something that is unconscionable and needs to stop and we need to tackle

:21:31.:21:32.

this very urgently. The question of who should be

:21:33.:21:40.

involved and consulted in this review, will the Minister Bear in

:21:41.:21:44.

mind party litigants cross-examining their victims is actually just one

:21:45.:21:50.

species of the controlling behaviour that lies at the heart of domestic

:21:51.:21:57.

abuse. It is for that reason there is a real and important role for

:21:58.:22:01.

organisations such as women's aid to have their voices heard in this

:22:02.:22:06.

process? The honourable gentleman makes an important point and of

:22:07.:22:11.

course the department does listen to what is said. The only point I make

:22:12.:22:18.

is this is a discrete issue. It is an issue about banning

:22:19.:22:24.

cross-examination by alleged perpetrators and making arrangements

:22:25.:22:27.

to ensure cross-examination can take place in a suitable way. I wouldn't

:22:28.:22:33.

want to sacrifice speed in tackling that for anything. Last week the

:22:34.:22:43.

country were shocked and saddened by the death of my constituent, Gill

:22:44.:22:52.

savoured, who campaigned for victims of sexual violence. She was

:22:53.:23:01.

instrumental in changing the law which stopped rapist cross-examining

:23:02.:23:03.

victims. Will my right honourable friend join me in paying tribute to

:23:04.:23:09.

Jill, expressing our sincere condolences to her family does he

:23:10.:23:14.

agree it is absolutely right the law is extended to the victims of

:23:15.:23:22.

domestic violence? I certainly think it is important to pay

:23:23.:23:36.

tribute to Jill Saward and she was someone who showed to the rest of

:23:37.:23:41.

her life what a wonderful person she was. Campaigning and doing charity

:23:42.:23:46.

work. She was a model and someone who was the example of good. I would

:23:47.:23:50.

like to pass the law which applies in criminal cases on into family so

:23:51.:23:58.

we can tackle the abuse described. I declare my interest as a member of

:23:59.:24:04.

Wilberforce chambers in Hull, although not currently practising. I

:24:05.:24:09.

welcome the Justice Secretary's position to bring forward a review

:24:10.:24:14.

of this issue. It clearly is an issue. But the Minister will no that

:24:15.:24:20.

this was created as a result of the legal aid sentencing and punishment

:24:21.:24:24.

of offenders act in 2012, because the truth is this, the very vast of

:24:25.:24:33.

what people now are refused legal representation in family

:24:34.:24:36.

proceedings, unless they can prove domestic violence, which is

:24:37.:24:40.

virtually impossible to prove. So maybe the government should be

:24:41.:24:47.

bringing forward a review, it isn't working, do something about it. I

:24:48.:24:52.

don't agree with him, but can I just say there will be a review, it is

:24:53.:24:58.

something we have promised. The date by which it has to be completed is

:24:59.:25:02.

in April 2018 and three are committed to doing that. In terms of

:25:03.:25:07.

the family proceedings, I think it is right that in many cases families

:25:08.:25:12.

can come together and reach agreements and we don't have the

:25:13.:25:16.

problem he outlined. But in some cases, and there are a significant

:25:17.:25:21.

number of individuals where abuse is present. In those cases, it is

:25:22.:25:26.

important the individual who is the victim shouldn't be cross examined

:25:27.:25:29.

by the alleged perpetrator and that is what we want to solve. Earlier we

:25:30.:25:41.

heard a cherry, now we can hear a Berry. Mr Jake Berry. Thank you Mr

:25:42.:25:48.

Speaker. Can I congratulate the Minister as to the taking this on.

:25:49.:25:57.

In his statement he has referred this as urgent. Will he commit when

:25:58.:26:02.

this review is complete, to bring this through as emergency

:26:03.:26:05.

legislation? I think it would forward support from all sides of

:26:06.:26:09.

the House and we could do with this legislation in one day in ensuring

:26:10.:26:12.

this could be changed as quickly as possible. Can I save the importance

:26:13.:26:20.

of this is accepted across the House. Whether it is the appropriate

:26:21.:26:24.

way of dealing with it or not, one thing is clear it should be dealt

:26:25.:26:28.

with as a matter of urgency and that is what I am committed to do. They

:26:29.:26:30.

should have said in the case of the point Laspo. On several occasions,

:26:31.:26:54.

the Minister has said he's dealing with it urgently. When will we the

:26:55.:27:00.

result? Of course the answer you get from the dispatch box is shortly,

:27:01.:27:04.

which is what I have said, but that doesn't mean shortly. The

:27:05.:27:11.

government's reforms around the family courts were designed to keep

:27:12.:27:15.

some of these antagonistic cases out of court altogether but the changes

:27:16.:27:19.

to legal aid had met there are more litigants in person in these very

:27:20.:27:24.

sensitive cases. Does he acknowledge the being caused by litigants in

:27:25.:27:28.

person on court resources, spinning out the times cases often take with

:27:29.:27:33.

constant advice legal procedures needed by the judge himself. We need

:27:34.:27:36.

to do something about this because it is messing up the family courts.

:27:37.:27:46.

I do accept how litigants are helped with court proceedings is important

:27:47.:27:53.

and the government spending ?3.5 million helping them. The point I

:27:54.:27:58.

make, it is not every case that needs to be decided in court and I

:27:59.:28:02.

am a strong supporter of mediation. I would like to see more of that.

:28:03.:28:08.

This is a welcome review, but cross-examination is not the only

:28:09.:28:12.

way which perpetrators exploit family core processors to perpetuate

:28:13.:28:17.

their abuse. Can I ask the Minister if the emergency review will look at

:28:18.:28:21.

the other ways in which abusers can, string out judicial process in the

:28:22.:28:26.

family courts to continue abusing former partners and their children?

:28:27.:28:32.

I will be happy to discuss the issue with the honourable lady and

:28:33.:28:34.

certainly in due course about the matter. But, this is a discrete

:28:35.:28:40.

area. It is an important one and I would like to see it tackle swiftly.

:28:41.:28:43.

I am not looking to widen what we are doing at the moment. I want to

:28:44.:28:52.

get on with this. Women's Aid have raised this issue and a number of

:28:53.:28:57.

occasions, including most recently where they found 25% of women they

:28:58.:29:02.

interviewed had been cross-examined on including one woman who had been

:29:03.:29:06.

raped, beaten and abused over six years, had been cross-examined for

:29:07.:29:10.

three hours. Notwithstanding the need to get it right, can I ask my

:29:11.:29:14.

honourable friend, when he does get it right in terms of review, we move

:29:15.:29:18.

to bring legislation as soon as possible to make sure this can never

:29:19.:29:24.

happen again? My honourable friend highlights an important case. He

:29:25.:29:27.

highlights the work of Women's Aid and I think he is right to say this

:29:28.:29:30.

is a matter that needs to be tackled urgently. The need for training of

:29:31.:29:40.

the judiciary goes beyond the family Court. I constituent of mine came to

:29:41.:29:46.

see me because her ex-partner talk a case in the civil courts about the

:29:47.:29:50.

management of family property. The judge said it was irrelevant that he

:29:51.:29:55.

was in prison for raping her daughter. This cannot be right, they

:29:56.:30:02.

need to be trained as well. Of course, that would not have been a

:30:03.:30:06.

family Justice case, it would have been a civil case. I agree with the

:30:07.:30:12.

honourable lady, that is also an important consideration. It is

:30:13.:30:20.

something I will look into. I very much welcome what the Minister has

:30:21.:30:24.

said today in his commitment to legislate. But in the meantime will

:30:25.:30:28.

he ensure the best possible support is in place to support these very

:30:29.:30:33.

vulnerable people, these victims, before, during and after these

:30:34.:30:38.

proceedings? Yes, as I mentioned in my response to the urgent question,

:30:39.:30:41.

a lot of effort has gone into training both court staff and others

:30:42.:30:48.

to provide emotional support that is needed. While I think we all welcome

:30:49.:30:54.

the tone of what the Minister has said today, this is supposed to be

:30:55.:30:58.

an urgent review. Many women are going through these cases right now

:30:59.:31:03.

so can we have some clarity that at least by Easter this review will be

:31:04.:31:10.

concluded and we will look to see improvements in our courts? Yes, I

:31:11.:31:15.

agree with that. I welcome the tone of the Minister's remarks. Will he

:31:16.:31:19.

agree with me the point about legal aid misses the fact some of these

:31:20.:31:23.

perpetrators are using the ability to cross examined as a tactic in the

:31:24.:31:29.

courts, motivating what they are doing and it is more important is

:31:30.:31:32.

plugged in the law is made to stop this practice from continuing? What

:31:33.:31:40.

is being put forward by a number of colleagues and my honourable friend

:31:41.:31:46.

has made the same point, it is a form of abuse in itself to be cross

:31:47.:31:50.

examining the victim in these circumstances. I agree with that,

:31:51.:31:55.

which is why we are keen to conclude this review on a short timetable, as

:31:56.:32:02.

I said to the honourable lady. I am grateful to the Minister for the

:32:03.:32:05.

terms in which he has replied to the urgent question. He has talked about

:32:06.:32:10.

the urgency of this issue. He has accepted the words of the chairman,

:32:11.:32:17.

the president of the family court that primary legislation would be

:32:18.:32:21.

needed. What commitment can he give to those survivors of domestic

:32:22.:32:26.

violence and abuse that change will be brought forward urgently? I can

:32:27.:32:34.

make the assurances I have made, we are tackling this as a matter of

:32:35.:32:41.

urgency. There is a busy legislative timetable with all sorts of matters

:32:42.:32:44.

to do with Europe and the like and we will have to see what can be

:32:45.:32:49.

achieved in terms of the legislative timetable, but I want to tackle this

:32:50.:32:55.

urgently. On behalf of of my constituent, Claire, whose children

:32:56.:32:59.

were murdered by her ex-husband, I welcome this review. But in the

:33:00.:33:05.

debate in September which I co-sponsored, the minister at his

:33:06.:33:12.

side made a clear commitment to overhauling the culture of the

:33:13.:33:16.

family courts, and in particular our review our practice direction 12. Is

:33:17.:33:20.

the government still committed to the broader set of changes we so

:33:21.:33:27.

urgently need to see? Can I just beat to the to the work the

:33:28.:33:30.

honourable lady has done on this issue. The family justice board

:33:31.:33:39.

which I'd share with another minister, the honourable member for

:33:40.:33:42.

Crewe and Nantwich. We are committed to improving the overall in which

:33:43.:33:48.

way the courts work and we are in the process of having a new practice

:33:49.:33:52.

direction in the area of victims. But it is certainly a point we are

:33:53.:34:01.

very much alive too. Everyone who has spoken today has said how urgent

:34:02.:34:05.

the situation is, including the minister himself. In view of this

:34:06.:34:09.

and in view of the fact he has said primary legislation will be needed,

:34:10.:34:14.

is there any reason why he could not present this in three or four

:34:15.:34:21.

months? As I have said to her colleague, we are keen to complete

:34:22.:34:27.

this review as a matter of urgency. Legislative programme is a complex

:34:28.:34:30.

matter at the moment, for reasons which I have already hinted that so

:34:31.:34:35.

we will have to see what is possible. But we would like to

:34:36.:34:39.

tackle it urgently. The questions has been on domestic violence, but

:34:40.:34:46.

can he confirm he is also seeking to implement this protection for

:34:47.:34:50.

victims of emotional, financial control and other forms of

:34:51.:34:53.

nonviolence abuse, which the government has, to its great credit,

:34:54.:34:57.

sought to criminalise in recent months? As he will know, there is a

:34:58.:35:06.

cross governmental approach to abuse which has its own definitions and so

:35:07.:35:12.

on. If he looks at the areas covered for abuse when it comes to

:35:13.:35:15.

applications for legal aid, he will see it is far wider than just

:35:16.:35:20.

physical violence, it includes sex abuse cases and the like. We are

:35:21.:35:24.

well alive to the need to cover a wider area than simply violence.

:35:25.:35:32.

Whilst I appreciate the urgency and scope of the investigation, can he

:35:33.:35:36.

give consideration to cases where the DWP are sharing the victims of

:35:37.:35:41.

domestic abuse's information with the perpetrators of the crime when

:35:42.:35:44.

making their decisions about benefits claims and giving, in the

:35:45.:35:50.

case of my constituent, her anonymity being taken away from her

:35:51.:35:55.

and it was passed on by the DWP? I am sure the honourable lady is

:35:56.:36:00.

making an important point. If she wanted to write to me speak to me

:36:01.:36:04.

about it I would be happy to look at it. But it is not what we are doing

:36:05.:36:09.

in this particular exercise by looking at the cross-examination of

:36:10.:36:15.

alleged perpetrators, it is a discreet, narrow area which we are

:36:16.:36:18.

tackling and we wanted tackle urgently. It is a different matter,

:36:19.:36:28.

but her point is important. Survivors of domestic abuse tell us

:36:29.:36:33.

they feel read Victor Mize and re-traumatised by their experience

:36:34.:36:37.

in the family Court. Could the minister give us more clarity on how

:36:38.:36:41.

the voices and views of survivors of domestic abuse will be considered in

:36:42.:36:42.

this emergency review? Well, my view of this is that it is

:36:43.:36:56.

now though issued to ban perpetrators, or alleged

:36:57.:36:58.

perpetrators from cross examining victims. I think this is something

:36:59.:37:02.

we all agree on. The sort of arrangement that there need to be

:37:03.:37:07.

put in place to tackle the issue of cross-examination are things that

:37:08.:37:10.

are being tried in the criminal courts. If she has any particular

:37:11.:37:14.

ideas or concerns about that I would obviously be happy to discuss it

:37:15.:37:19.

with her, but I don't think it is a complicated matter, but a simple one

:37:20.:37:25.

that needs urgent action. Thank you, whilst I'm aware that this debate

:37:26.:37:30.

focuses on the adult victims of domestic abuse, research shows that

:37:31.:37:35.

an estimated hundred and 30,000 children in the UK live in

:37:36.:37:38.

households with high risk of domestic abuse where there is a

:37:39.:37:42.

significant risk of harm or death and thousands more live with other

:37:43.:37:47.

levels of domestic abuse every single day. Can the Minister please

:37:48.:37:52.

clarify that as recommended by Women's Aid, there must not be an

:37:53.:37:57.

assumption of shared parenting in cases where domestic abuse is a

:37:58.:38:03.

feature? Well, I mean it is an important point and clearly the

:38:04.:38:08.

courts are very alive to this, but I think we do have to give some

:38:09.:38:13.

discretion, because the family cases are very wide and have the range of

:38:14.:38:18.

factors in them. I think the judges do a good job and I would just like

:38:19.:38:23.

to put on record that these aren't easy cases and judges do have to

:38:24.:38:27.

have an area of discretion. Although she makes a good point I would like

:38:28.:38:33.

to insure that remains the case. Thank you. Constituent came to meet

:38:34.:38:39.

extremely distressed she was having her husband repeatably take a back

:38:40.:38:42.

to the family court over access issues, so not only was she having

:38:43.:38:48.

the cross-examination she was also being driven into poverty by having

:38:49.:38:53.

to fund her own defence and her own case. Will the Minister also look at

:38:54.:39:01.

how courts can look at fixation is, repeated requests over access which

:39:02.:39:08.

are actually behind a lot of this POS of behaviour? -- a lot of this

:39:09.:39:13.

coercive behaviour. I think she makes a very important point, I am

:39:14.:39:19.

more than happy to raise this in the family Justice board and to look at

:39:20.:39:24.

it, but it's not part of the important work we're doing at the

:39:25.:39:30.

moment to try and do something urgently the issue of

:39:31.:39:32.

cross-examination. It is appointed that bears on it but it is not the

:39:33.:39:37.

absolute focus on what we're doing at the moment. But it is and we will

:39:38.:39:43.

look forward to -- we will look into. Statement the Secretary of

:39:44.:39:46.

State secretary Jeremy Hunt. With the mission I would like to

:39:47.:40:05.

make a statement about mental health and NHS performance. This government

:40:06.:40:09.

is committed to a shared society in which public services work to the

:40:10.:40:15.

highest standards for everyone. This includes plans announced by the

:40:16.:40:18.

Prime Minister this morning and mental health. I am proud that under

:40:19.:40:25.

this government 1400 more people are accessing mental health services

:40:26.:40:29.

every day compared to 2010. We are investing more in mental health than

:40:30.:40:33.

ever before, with plans for a million more people with mental

:40:34.:40:36.

health conditions to access services by 2020. But, we

:40:37.:40:52.

recognise there is more to do and so we will proceed with plans to

:40:53.:40:54.

further improve mental health provision including formally

:40:55.:40:55.

accepting the recommendations of the independent task force on mental

:40:56.:40:57.

health which will see mental health spending increase by ?1 billion a

:40:58.:41:00.

year by the end of parliament. A green paper on children and young

:41:01.:41:03.

People's mental health to be published by the end of the year,

:41:04.:41:07.

enabling every secondary school to train someone in mental health first

:41:08.:41:12.

aid. A new partnership with employers to support mental health

:41:13.:41:16.

in the workplace, at ?250 million extra invested in places of safety

:41:17.:41:20.

for those in crisis following the highly successful start to this

:41:21.:41:24.

programme in the last Parliament. An ambitious expansion of digital

:41:25.:41:30.

mental health provision and an updated and more comprehensive

:41:31.:41:33.

suicide prevention strategy, further details of these plans are contained

:41:34.:41:38.

in the written ministerial statement. However, telling the

:41:39.:41:46.

winter, as are most precious public surface the NHS has been under

:41:47.:41:50.

sustained pressure for a number of years. In just six years the number

:41:51.:41:58.

of people over 80 has risen by 340,000. And life expectancy has

:41:59.:42:04.

risen by 12 months. As a result demand is unprecedented. The Tuesday

:42:05.:42:08.

after Christmas was the busiest day in the history of the NHS. Some

:42:09.:42:14.

hospitals are reporting that Amy attendances are up to 30% higher

:42:15.:42:21.

compared to last year. -- A attendances. I therefore hope to set

:42:22.:42:28.

out how we intend to sustain it for the future. First I would like to

:42:29.:42:33.

pay tribute to staff on the front line. 1.3 million NHS staff,

:42:34.:42:41.

alongside another 1.4 million in the social care system, do an incredible

:42:42.:42:45.

job which is frankly humbling for all abuzz in this House. An

:42:46.:42:54.

estimated hundred and 50,000 medical staff and many non-medical staff

:42:55.:42:57.

worked on Christmas Day and New Year's Day, they have never worked

:42:58.:43:00.

harder to keep patients save and whole countries in their debt. With

:43:01.:43:08.

respect to this winter, the NHS has made more extensive preparations

:43:09.:43:12.

than ever before. We started the run-up to the winter period with

:43:13.:43:17.

over 600 more doctors and 3000 more nurses. Then just a year ago.

:43:18.:43:24.

Bringing the total increase since 2010 to 11,400 more doctors, and

:43:25.:43:32.

11,200 more hospital nurses. The NHS allocated ?400 million to local

:43:33.:43:36.

health systems for winter preparedness, it is nationally

:43:37.:43:38.

assured the winter plans of every trust, it launched the largest ever

:43:39.:43:43.

flu vaccination programme with over 30 million people already

:43:44.:43:48.

vaccinated, it also bolsters support outside a unease with 12,000

:43:49.:43:55.

additional GP sessions -- A The result has been that this winter has

:43:56.:44:00.

already seen days where a unease have treated an extra number of

:44:01.:44:05.

people within four hours. -- a record number of people. As head of

:44:06.:44:12.

NHS providers said, "Although there have been serious problems at some

:44:13.:44:16.

trust, the system as a whole is doing slightly better than last

:44:17.:44:22.

year." However, there are indeed a number of trusts where the situation

:44:23.:44:27.

has been extremely fragile, all of last week's a neat guy that happened

:44:28.:44:32.

at 19 trusts of which four are in special measurements. The most

:44:33.:44:37.

recent stats show that three quarters of the folly weight

:44:38.:44:43.

occurred in three trusts. In Worcestershire there has been a

:44:44.:44:49.

number of unexpectedly long trolley waits. We are also aware of ongoing

:44:50.:44:54.

problems in North Midlands with extremely high numbers of 12 hour

:44:55.:45:00.

trolley waits. Nationally the NHS has taken urgent action to... As of

:45:01.:45:13.

this week and there are some signs that that pressure is using both in

:45:14.:45:17.

the most distressed trusts and across the system. However, with a

:45:18.:45:25.

further cold weather and the way a spike in respiratory infections and

:45:26.:45:28.

a rise in blue will bring further challenges ahead. So, NHS England

:45:29.:45:34.

and NHS improvements will also consider further measures which May

:45:35.:45:40.

be taken in particularly distressed systems on a temporary basis at the

:45:41.:45:42.

discretion of local clinical leaders. They may include temporary

:45:43.:45:51.

release in time for GPs to support urgent care word, clinically

:45:52.:45:53.

triaging non-urgent calls to the Ambulance Service before they are

:45:54.:46:00.

taken to hospital, continuing to suspend collective care including

:46:01.:46:03.

where appropriate suspension of non-urgent outpatient appointing is,

:46:04.:46:10.

working on rapid reinspection when this has potential to reopen at

:46:11.:46:17.

capacity, working with community trusts and community nursing teams

:46:18.:46:20.

to speed up discharge. Taking together these actions will give the

:46:21.:46:25.

NHS the flexibility to take further measures as and when appropriate at

:46:26.:46:30.

a local level. However, looking to the future, it is clear we need have

:46:31.:46:35.

an honest discussion with the public about the purpose of A

:46:36.:46:40.

departments, there is nowhere outside the UK that commits to all

:46:41.:46:45.

patients that we will also out any health need within four hours, only

:46:46.:46:49.

four other countries New Zealand, Sweden, Australia and have similar

:46:50.:47:12.

national standards which are generally less stringent than ours.

:47:13.:47:14.

This government is committed to maintaining and delivering that

:47:15.:47:16.

vital for our commitment to patients, but since it was announced

:47:17.:47:19.

in 2000 there are nearly 9 million more visits to our a unease, up to

:47:20.:47:22.

30% of whom NHS England estimates do not need to be there and the tide is

:47:23.:47:25.

continuing to rise. So, if we are continuing to respect this for our

:47:26.:47:30.

standard we to be clear it is for urgent health problems not all

:47:31.:47:35.

health problems however minor. As the NHS England's medical director

:47:36.:47:40.

for acute care has said, "No country in the world has a standard for all

:47:41.:47:45.

health problems however small, and if we are to protect services for

:47:46.:47:51.

the most honourable neither can we." So we will continue to explore ways

:47:52.:47:56.

to ensure that at least some of the patients who do not need to be in

:47:57.:48:07.

A This way we will be able to improve the patient experience for

:48:08.:48:11.

those with more minor conditions who are currently not seen within four

:48:12.:48:15.

hours as well as protect the four hour promised for those who actually

:48:16.:48:21.

need it. Mr Speaker, taken together what I have announced today are

:48:22.:48:26.

plans to support the NHS in a difficult period, but also plans for

:48:27.:48:31.

a government that is ambitious for our NHS, quite simply to offer the

:48:32.:48:36.

safest, highest quality care available anywhere for both mental

:48:37.:48:40.

and physical health. But they will take time to come to fruition and in

:48:41.:48:45.

the meantime all our thoughts are with NHS and social care staff who

:48:46.:48:49.

were working extremely hard over the winter and throughout the year both

:48:50.:48:53.

inside and outside our hospitals and I commend the statement of the

:48:54.:49:00.

House. I'm grateful to the Secretary of State for advance copy of his

:49:01.:49:03.

statement and I begin by playing tribute to all the NHS staff who are

:49:04.:49:07.

working day in day out to provide the highest possible care to

:49:08.:49:11.

patients at the Spivey period. Of course, we welcome measures to

:49:12.:49:15.

improve mental health services. -- this busy period. We welcome and

:49:16.:49:22.

such announcements 12 months ago when the then Prime Minister made

:49:23.:49:25.

these announcements. But do you not agree that if you want to shine a

:49:26.:49:31.

light on mental health position you should aim had taught and... A

:49:32.:49:41.

reduction in mental health head, 400 fewer doctors working in mental

:49:42.:49:44.

health and perhaps most disgracefully of all the raiding of

:49:45.:49:49.

children's local mental health budgets in order to plug funding

:49:50.:49:58.

gaps in the widening NHS. Why were you unable to compare that the money

:49:59.:50:06.

the mental health would be ring fenced? We would welcome support on

:50:07.:50:11.

measures to improve mental health in schools, would the government offer

:50:12.:50:17.

more resources to local authority psychologists, and what provision

:50:18.:50:19.

would be in place to give teachers suitable training? Tending to the

:50:20.:50:25.

winter crisis, this morning the Secretary of State said that things

:50:26.:50:31.

have only been, "Falling over in a couple of places." Let's look at the

:50:32.:50:37.

facts, a third of hospitals declared last month they needed help to deal

:50:38.:50:47.

with patients coming through the doors, 15 hospitals ran out of bed

:50:48.:50:53.

in one day in December, several hospitals have warned they can't

:50:54.:50:58.

offer comprehensive care, elderly patients have been left languishing

:50:59.:51:03.

on hospital trolleys in corridors sometimes but over 24-hour 's and he

:51:04.:51:08.

says care is only falling over in eight couple of places. I know Lala

:51:09.:51:15.

land did well at the globes last night, I didn't realise the

:51:16.:51:19.

Secretary of State was living there, perhaps that's where he was all

:51:20.:51:24.

weekend. Can he confirm that the NHS is facing a winter crisis and the

:51:25.:51:30.

blame for this lies at the door of number ten Downing St? Does the

:51:31.:51:33.

Secretary of State agree it was an error to ignore the pleas for extra

:51:34.:51:41.

funds for social care in the Autumn Statement? Willy now bring forward

:51:42.:51:49.

extra money allocated the social care's and Willie edge the

:51:50.:51:58.

Chancellor and the Prime Minister... And with respect to the four hour a

:51:59.:52:04.

any target he has just announced can repressive however, is he now really

:52:05.:52:09.

telling patients that rather then trying to hit back for our target,

:52:10.:52:14.

the government is now free writing and down grading it? If so, does NHS

:52:15.:52:20.

England support this move and what guidance has he taken from the Royal

:52:21.:52:25.

College of emergency medicine is that this is an appropriate change?

:52:26.:52:32.

This Secretary of State has made patient safety a priority in that he

:52:33.:52:37.

has our support, will he agree that one of the most upsetting reports to

:52:38.:52:42.

come out of hospitals last week was the death of two patients at

:52:43.:52:46.

Worcestershire wall and hospital trolleys. Can I ask the Secretary of

:52:47.:52:51.

State whether he will lead an enquiry into these deaths? Does he

:52:52.:52:54.

know whether these were isolated incidences and when does the trust

:52:55.:52:59.

it intend to report back and will he undertake to keep the House updated

:53:00.:53:04.

on these matters? In conclusion, there is no doubt that this current

:53:05.:53:10.

crisis could have been averted, hospital bottoms, council leaders,

:53:11.:53:15.

patient groups, MPs, urged the council to give the NHS and social

:53:16.:53:20.

care extra money in the Autumn Statement, those requests fell on

:53:21.:53:26.

deaf ears and we are now seeing the dismal consequences. NHS staff

:53:27.:53:30.

deserve better, patients deserve better, the government needs to do

:53:31.:53:32.

better can I I am happy to respond to his

:53:33.:53:46.

comments and the Commons of all on rebel members. But I say this about

:53:47.:53:51.

the tone of what he said. He speaks as if the NHS never had any problems

:53:52.:53:57.

over the winter when Labour was in power. Let me say to him very

:53:58.:54:02.

simply, the one thing NHS staff don't want right now is for any

:54:03.:54:08.

party to start weaponised in the NHS for party political purposes. Let me

:54:09.:54:16.

remind him when his party runs the NHS, double the number of people are

:54:17.:54:20.

on waiting lists for treatment, people wait twice as long to have

:54:21.:54:25.

their hips replaced. Whatever the problems are in the NHS, Labour is

:54:26.:54:33.

not the solution. He talked about mental health. Let me tell him what

:54:34.:54:37.

is happening on mental health. Thanks to the efforts of this

:54:38.:54:40.

government and the Conservative led coalition, we have some of the

:54:41.:54:45.

highest dementia diagnosis rates in the world. Talking therapies

:54:46.:54:48.

programme, which is one of the most popular programmes for the treatment

:54:49.:54:53.

of depression and anxiety, is treating 750,000 more people every

:54:54.:54:57.

year and is being copied by people in Sweden. We are treating, every

:54:58.:55:03.

day, 1400 more people for mental health conditions. We have record

:55:04.:55:08.

numbers of psychiatrist. He mentioned mental health nurses, we

:55:09.:55:13.

are training 8000 more, 22% increase. This is backed up by what

:55:14.:55:17.

we are confirming today, which hasn't been done before, the

:55:18.:55:21.

government is accepting the report of the independent task force review

:55:22.:55:27.

led by the Chief Executive of Mind which commits us to spending ?1

:55:28.:55:31.

billion more on mental health by the end of this Parliament. That would

:55:32.:55:35.

not be possible with the spending commitments Labour was prepared to

:55:36.:55:41.

make NHS in the last Parliament. It is because of this government's

:55:42.:55:45.

funding we can make this commitment on mental health. Now, he talked

:55:46.:55:51.

about the NHS and he gave completely the wrong impression of what I said

:55:52.:55:57.

this morning. I was completely clear that all NHS hospitals are operating

:55:58.:56:00.

under greater pressure than they have ever operated under. But, he

:56:01.:56:06.

should perhaps listen to independent voices like Chris Hobson, no friend

:56:07.:56:11.

of the government when it comes to NHS policy, who is very clear that

:56:12.:56:15.

in the vast majority of trusts, people are coping slightly better

:56:16.:56:22.

but we have serious problems in a few trusts, including Worcestershire

:56:23.:56:26.

and a number of others. I can commit to him we will follow closely, the

:56:27.:56:32.

reports and investigations into the two reported deaths at

:56:33.:56:34.

Worcestershire and keep the House updated. He talked about social

:56:35.:56:42.

care, social care last year 's spending went up by around ?600

:56:43.:56:49.

million. He stood on a platform at the last election of not a penny

:56:50.:56:53.

more to local authorities for social care. Not a penny more. To stand

:56:54.:57:00.

here as a defender of social care is frankly an insult to vulnerable

:57:01.:57:05.

people up and down the people, but particularly people living under

:57:06.:57:07.

Labour councils like Hounslow, Merton and Ealing, where they are

:57:08.:57:13.

refusing to raise social care but complaining about social care

:57:14.:57:18.

funding. He also talked more generally about NHS funding. I'd

:57:19.:57:22.

just say this... In the last Parliament it wasn't the

:57:23.:57:25.

conservatives who put funding for the NHS, it was his party who put

:57:26.:57:31.

funding for the NHS. It wasn't the Conservatives who said funding the

:57:32.:57:35.

five-year forward view was impossible, it was his party. They

:57:36.:57:38.

said the cheque would bounce. It hasn't bounced and we are putting

:57:39.:57:45.

that money in. Tough as it is on the NHS front line, I do say he was

:57:46.:57:48.

right to raise this issue in this House, but wrong to raise it in the

:57:49.:57:56.

way he did. The NHS as record doctors, record nurses, record

:57:57.:58:01.

funding, care, despite the pressures of winter is safer, high-quality and

:58:02.:58:04.

reaching more people than ever before and it is time to support

:58:05.:58:08.

those on the front line not try to use them for party political points.

:58:09.:58:15.

I welcomed the Secretary of State's statement and the Prime Minister's

:58:16.:58:20.

focus on mental health. She spoke of holding the NHS leadership to

:58:21.:58:23.

account for the extra billion that will be investing in mental health.

:58:24.:58:27.

Could the Secretary of State set out in further detail how CCG 's will be

:58:28.:58:34.

held accountable so we can deliver progress and parity? I can

:58:35.:58:43.

absolutely do that. We have had a patchy record in the NHS of making

:58:44.:58:46.

sure money promised for mental health actually reaches the front

:58:47.:58:52.

line. The way we intend to address this is by independently compiled

:58:53.:58:55.

Ofsted style ratings for every CCG in the country that actually

:58:56.:59:01.

highlights where mental health provision is inadequate. Those

:59:02.:59:05.

ratings are decided by an independent committee chaired by the

:59:06.:59:10.

same Paul Farmer, who is responsible for the independent task force

:59:11.:59:19.

report. I am confident we can shine a light on those areas that are not

:59:20.:59:27.

delivering. After the recent enquiry the Health Select Committee did into

:59:28.:59:31.

suicide, I absolutely welcome the extra funding to mental health and

:59:32.:59:35.

I'm sure the Secretary of State remembers some of the discussions we

:59:36.:59:40.

had in that room. I also pay tribute to the staff and obviously with my

:59:41.:59:44.

background, I know what it is like when A is swamped when you don't

:59:45.:59:50.

have anywhere to put people. I don't think the staff across NHS England

:59:51.:59:54.

are afraid of us discussing this topic and weaponised and yet, they

:59:55.:00:00.

are in tears, they are exhausted, they are demoralised, they have

:00:01.:00:05.

never experienced a winter like this. Perhaps the secretary of State

:00:06.:00:10.

can explain why his figures suggest 19 diverts and only two trusts in

:00:11.:00:14.

serious problems. Where as what we're hearing from the Nuffield

:00:15.:00:19.

trust, it is 40 or 50 trusts diverging, which it is absurd. That

:00:20.:00:23.

means it is widespread. Talking about, and I people going to A who

:00:24.:00:30.

don't need to be there, but they are not the people three deep on

:00:31.:00:33.

trolleys waiting for a bed for 36 hours. Those are people who need a

:00:34.:00:40.

bed and they are ill. We have discussed sustainability on several

:00:41.:00:43.

occasions and the concern people have is because they don't have the

:00:44.:00:49.

money to redesign, they are starting with A closures and bed cuts. I

:00:50.:00:55.

would hope this incident would show that simply isn't possible. It is

:00:56.:01:00.

not possible for the UK and particularly NHS England to lose any

:01:01.:01:04.

more beds. In Scotland we face the same problem of increased demand and

:01:05.:01:13.

shortage of doctors. A 49% of our patients were seen within four hours

:01:14.:01:18.

in Christmas week. And it is estimated in areas of England, it is

:01:19.:01:22.

within 50 and 60%. The difference is how it is organised, it is the

:01:23.:01:26.

fragmentation, the lack of integration. There are things to be

:01:27.:01:32.

done, use community pharmacies and GPs and try and bring the NHS back

:01:33.:01:38.

together. I hope the honourable lady won't take offence if I say her

:01:39.:01:44.

questions must be judged to be rhetorical questions. Secretary of

:01:45.:01:47.

State. I was handy at-bats, but that was

:01:48.:02:05.

then! This is now, that was when I was a badly behaved backbencher,

:02:06.:02:08.

like the honourable gentleman. Secretary of State. I will try to

:02:09.:02:15.

interpret the questions in what she said. If he is saying are the

:02:16.:02:20.

problems in England similar to Scotland, I think we share problems,

:02:21.:02:23.

particularly across the busy winter period and she has observed in

:02:24.:02:29.

Scotland they are failing to meet targets in Scotland. But she is

:02:30.:02:33.

right to say bed capacity is an absolutely critical issue. It is an

:02:34.:02:38.

issue which we have not always got right in England. Beds have been

:02:39.:02:43.

decommissioned and actually the alternative provision that was

:02:44.:02:46.

promised has not been made and it has had knock-on effects. When it

:02:47.:02:52.

comes to what happens in Scotland and England, Scotland has gone

:02:53.:02:56.

further than England in terms of use of community pharmacy and that is

:02:57.:02:59.

something to be commended. But England has gone further in our

:03:00.:03:03.

plans for reforming and increasing investment into general practice,

:03:04.:03:07.

which is what the president of the Royal College of GPs was talking

:03:08.:03:10.

about over Christmas, and she is keen for Scotland to match the

:03:11.:03:18.

package we have done in England. I commend my right honourable friend

:03:19.:03:21.

for his statement. All of us know the work done in our local areas and

:03:22.:03:25.

those working for the NHS at such a difficult time. In relation to

:03:26.:03:30.

mental health, would he confirmed the Prime Minister's welcome speech

:03:31.:03:38.

this morning emphasised Perrinelle -- Perry mental health but also

:03:39.:03:42.

emphasise the point of transparency to make sure we know what it is CCGs

:03:43.:03:48.

are doing and assist members of parliament in the work, not only

:03:49.:03:50.

when we call for extra resource, but to make sure we play our part in

:03:51.:03:55.

making sure locally, our area does the best they can in compared with

:03:56.:04:02.

other areas rather make a general point and resources, which is the

:04:03.:04:07.

easiest one to make? As my colleague in the Department of Health who did

:04:08.:04:11.

a huge amount of good work on mental health, and on perinatal mental

:04:12.:04:17.

health, 20% of mothers suffer some form of postnatal depression and

:04:18.:04:22.

that has a huge impact on the child, costing around ?10,000 for every

:04:23.:04:31.

birth in the country caused by lack of proper mental health provision.

:04:32.:04:35.

This plan today means we can treat an extra 30,000 women, which we

:04:36.:04:39.

think is the number of women that need to be treated better. On

:04:40.:04:42.

transparency, he makes an important point. I would put it like this.

:04:43.:04:48.

Funding matters, but when it comes to mental health, we have some of

:04:49.:04:52.

the best mental health provision in the world, but it is inconsistent.

:04:53.:04:56.

The only way we can get it consistent is by shining a light on

:04:57.:05:00.

the different parts of the country, so we can bring all areas up to the

:05:01.:05:03.

standards of the best. Mr Dennis Skinner. Is the Minister aware, when

:05:04.:05:12.

he says there are 9 million more patient visits now, as opposed to

:05:13.:05:18.

the year 2000, it makes no sense at all that in that climate, shutting

:05:19.:05:27.

hospitals like the Community Hospital in Bolsover, and the

:05:28.:05:35.

Secretary of State turns a blind eye to it, will he look at this question

:05:36.:05:39.

because when you shut those hospitals, the beds are gone for

:05:40.:05:49.

ever. Get stuck in. I actually think he does make an important point. It

:05:50.:05:56.

isn't just about decisions to downgrade or close A when there

:05:57.:06:03.

isn't alternative provision, but it is community hospitals, which are

:06:04.:06:07.

important places for A and hospitals to step people down to. He

:06:08.:06:14.

is right, I am getting comments, but this is a process that has been

:06:15.:06:18.

going on in the NHS for decades and we have not always got it right

:06:19.:06:22.

under both parties. But he is right is said we need to make sure when

:06:23.:06:26.

there are changes in provision and community hospitals, we have good,

:06:27.:06:34.

alternative plans. Order. In wishing two members of the best in the weeks

:06:35.:06:43.

and months ahead, I Andrea Jenkins. First of all I would like to echo

:06:44.:06:47.

some of the points the Secretary of State has made. Regarding the

:06:48.:06:58.

support the mental health for expectant mothers. As one myself,

:06:59.:07:04.

the midwife has been fantastic right from the very first appointments, at

:07:05.:07:07.

grassroots level. We are feeling it on the ground.

:07:08.:07:15.

while 50 young people in Yorkshire received care the mental health, how

:07:16.:07:22.

would this new approach address the concerns of young people and their

:07:23.:07:27.

parents and what measures are in to reduce the waiting list? I would

:07:28.:07:34.

like to add my very good wishes and my confidence that she would get

:07:35.:07:40.

superb care from the NHS and thank her for her campaigning and

:07:41.:07:44.

patients' safety. She will be pleased to hear... In numbers, the

:07:45.:07:52.

plan that we are outlining will mean that we are treating a million more

:07:53.:07:57.

people a year with mental health conditions when it comes to young

:07:58.:08:04.

people an additional 70,000 people will get treatment every single year

:08:05.:08:08.

and that will I hope bring down the Camhs waiting times. But, we also

:08:09.:08:13.

want to do work in schools to stop people getting on this waiting list

:08:14.:08:20.

in the first place. The young mind survey before Christmas showed that

:08:21.:08:25.

in 50% of clinical commissioning group areas there is a failure to

:08:26.:08:29.

spend the full amount of investment allocated to children and young

:08:30.:08:35.

people's mental health. Which is scandalous. I noted his point about

:08:36.:08:39.

Ofsted like ratings, but doesn't he need instant use a system that

:08:40.:08:45.

guarantees that the money for children's mental health is spent as

:08:46.:08:49.

intended? He is writes to want to make sure that we live up to those

:08:50.:08:54.

promises that matter he is right. He was a minister when some of them

:08:55.:08:58.

were made and they are important promises. But I would say to him

:08:59.:09:02.

that we are delivering what he wants, we are on track this year to

:09:03.:09:07.

spending over a billion more compared to when he was Minister for

:09:08.:09:13.

mental health. It has taken time for the NHS to get their message on

:09:14.:09:17.

mental health but is getting through loud and clear. As a frequent user

:09:18.:09:24.

of the Red Cross myself, and admirer of it I regard their claims of being

:09:25.:09:32.

over the top. I'd join with the Minister in his tribute to the

:09:33.:09:36.

front-line staff of the NHS. Would he agree with me that these

:09:37.:09:40.

pressures are not in the go away and there must be a continuing drive for

:09:41.:09:44.

reform and to do these things better? And what will he tell the

:09:45.:09:50.

House, what are the impediments in the NHS to the sharing of best

:09:51.:09:55.

practice and secondly what steps is he creating, is he taking to create

:09:56.:10:01.

a more experienced and better trained leadership who are more

:10:02.:10:06.

prepared for the exceptional medical and management challenges the NHS

:10:07.:10:15.

now faces? Well, my right honourable is friend speaks extremely wisely

:10:16.:10:19.

and I think we have to be careful about the language we use in these

:10:20.:10:23.

situations, because many honourable people can be frightened if you get

:10:24.:10:29.

the tone wrong and the vast majority of NHS services are performing

:10:30.:10:33.

extremely well. His point and leadership is important, and one I

:10:34.:10:36.

have given a lot of thought to come at the heart of it the problem is

:10:37.:10:41.

that in this country, we don't have enough hospitals being run by

:10:42.:10:46.

doctors and nurses. Alain 56% of our managers have a clinical at ground,

:10:47.:10:53.

-- around 56%. Which compares to 96% in Sweden, to put it bluntly doctors

:10:54.:11:00.

like to be given instructions by other doctors. If you are an

:11:01.:11:04.

exceptional person, non-clinical background you can do it, but it is

:11:05.:11:08.

hard because doctors are highly experienced people, so I have put in

:11:09.:11:12.

place measures to try and make it easier for more clinicians to become

:11:13.:11:18.

an managers of the future. In wishing the honourable member for

:11:19.:11:26.

Liverpool way victory... In her speech to date the Prime Minister

:11:27.:11:32.

made a number of many hard-hitting observations, she said "There is no

:11:33.:11:36.

excluding the fact that people with mental health problems are not

:11:37.:11:40.

treated the same as if they had a physical ailment." She told us about

:11:41.:11:46.

the shocking reality that an average 13 people take their life every

:11:47.:11:51.

single day in England. Given that the Conservative Party has been in

:11:52.:11:55.

government for almost seven years and the Secretary of State has been

:11:56.:11:58.

Health Secretary for almost four of those years, he does he think is

:11:59.:12:02.

responsible for the PowerBook failures highlighted by the pie

:12:03.:12:10.

minister today? -- I think that is a totally inappropriate question. With

:12:11.:12:19.

great respect to her, and she campaigned tirelessly on mental

:12:20.:12:22.

health and deserves great credit and that is, that is the same as saying

:12:23.:12:26.

that the last Labour government should have sorted out every single

:12:27.:12:30.

problem in mental health by 2010, and another stunning him and saying

:12:31.:12:34.

that because the truth is that we have made good progress. If she

:12:35.:12:41.

thinks it's trivial but we are treating 400 people every day... She

:12:42.:12:47.

should go inspectors some of her constituencies who are getting

:12:48.:12:53.

access to mental health... We have made big strides but there is much

:12:54.:12:58.

more to do and we are determined to do what it takes. Recognising that a

:12:59.:13:04.

supply of extra resources for the NHS will be a rifle and continuing

:13:05.:13:09.

issue, isn't my right honourable friend right when he says that equal

:13:10.:13:14.

attention needs to be given to controlling demand so that people

:13:15.:13:19.

don't instinctively make calls an GP services in any department which

:13:20.:13:22.

doctors themselves believe are avoidable and can be dealt with in

:13:23.:13:27.

other ways? I think my right honourable friend 's beak is

:13:28.:13:31.

extremely wisely and at the heart of it, we have a good commitment,

:13:32.:13:38.

before our commitment. -- speaks extremely wisely. I think it is one

:13:39.:13:43.

of the best thing the NHS does, the problem that it you are ill we will

:13:44.:13:51.

do something about it in four hours. However, if you have a situation

:13:52.:13:55.

which NHS England describes as of the 30% of people don't taxi need to

:13:56.:13:59.

be there, then you risk not being able to deliver that promised the

:14:00.:14:05.

people that axiom do need it. Looking at control of demand for

:14:06.:14:09.

people who don't need to be in Amy 's, and -- Amy Makros. He seems to

:14:10.:14:23.

believe blaming the public for... He well knows that the reason the

:14:24.:14:27.

public go to Amy is because they can't get their GP and social care

:14:28.:14:34.

is in crisis. Will he confirm that he has announced a significant

:14:35.:14:38.

watering down of the four hour commitment and what is he personally

:14:39.:14:43.

doing to address the chronic long-term underperformance of

:14:44.:14:46.

hospitals like that of Worcester where two people died and trolleys.

:14:47.:14:51.

And Plymouth who wear one of the hospitals that had to call in the

:14:52.:14:57.

Red Cross. I think probably because of the fall and that we are in now

:14:58.:15:02.

he is misinterpreting what I have said, but it needs to be put right.

:15:03.:15:09.

-- because of the fall. I have not watered down the four our target I

:15:10.:15:13.

have recommitted the government to. Maybe he wasn't listening but I just

:15:14.:15:17.

said that I thought it was one of the best things about the NHS. But,

:15:18.:15:23.

the public will go to the place where it is easier to get in front

:15:24.:15:29.

of a doctor quickly and if we don't recognise that there is an issue

:15:30.:15:32.

with the fact that people who don't need to go to Amy Makros are going

:15:33.:15:38.

there we won't make their needs better by his constituencies and

:15:39.:15:43.

mind. If he asked what are we doing to in difficulty, we have introduced

:15:44.:15:49.

a new chief inspector of hospitals, which his party tried to write down.

:15:50.:15:56.

Mr Speaker can I welcome the Prime Minister's announcement and the

:15:57.:16:00.

Secretary of State's confirmation about the extra support the mental

:16:01.:16:03.

health and particularly welcomed the review to be led by Lord Stevenson,

:16:04.:16:09.

as they carry out that review into improving businesses ability to

:16:10.:16:12.

support people with mental health problems can they look at how we can

:16:13.:16:16.

help smaller businesses, those that don't have the human resource

:16:17.:16:20.

expertise that larger businesses may have, to make sure that people with

:16:21.:16:24.

mental health and stay in work and are able to get back into work when

:16:25.:16:33.

they fall out of work. They are the biggest single category of disabled

:16:34.:16:36.

people not currently working and we could make a huge difference. He

:16:37.:16:38.

will know that from his distinguished time as a minister in

:16:39.:16:44.

the blue WP -- in the DWP. We are trying to address the fact that if

:16:45.:16:48.

someone stops going to work, is signed off because of severe

:16:49.:16:53.

depression, that is ad for the individual and for the business.

:16:54.:17:00.

But, too often what happens is then it becomes entirely the NHS's

:17:01.:17:03.

responsibility to get that person after work. And the business think

:17:04.:17:07.

it's not their responsibility not any more. But with help from the

:17:08.:17:10.

business we could get that has them back to work much more quickly,

:17:11.:17:14.

which would mean they would recover more quickly and the business

:17:15.:17:22.

wouldn't lose so much money. We will never solve the challenges facing

:17:23.:17:28.

the NHS and social care until there is a long-term settlement for

:17:29.:17:34.

funding both. Does the Secretary of State understand that the social

:17:35.:17:37.

care preset is completely inadequate to filling in the gap and will

:17:38.:17:42.

increase inequalities because the areas that most need probably bonded

:17:43.:17:47.

pair will be least able to raise that money? Will he speak to the

:17:48.:17:52.

Chancellor and this the energy secretary to look again at this

:17:53.:17:55.

issue and get the funding social care desperately needs? I do agree

:17:56.:18:01.

with hair that there are serious funding pressures and social care

:18:02.:18:04.

and we need a long-term solution to this and we are doing important work

:18:05.:18:09.

on that. I think the preset is part of the solution the local government

:18:10.:18:15.

settlement has been adjusted to take account of the different spending

:18:16.:18:21.

powers or revenue raising powers of wealthier counties and local

:18:22.:18:24.

authority areas compared to other areas. We have to take into account

:18:25.:18:30.

the equality issue. But, issue saying how we sold the whole

:18:31.:18:33.

problem, the answer is no there was more work to do. Can I welcome the

:18:34.:18:43.

statement that could I pay a huge tribute to everyone working at

:18:44.:18:46.

Nottingham University trust especially inanely and especially in

:18:47.:18:50.

the nine days between Christmas and January the 2nd -- especially in the

:18:51.:19:00.

nine days. There are hundred and 80 people in the Amy Department seeking

:19:01.:19:07.

treatment, 395 more admissions then discharges in that nine-day period.

:19:08.:19:15.

So, we'll huge tribute to everyone. Could I get an assurance that he

:19:16.:19:20.

will continue to work with our hospital trusts as they bring

:19:21.:19:24.

forward plans to change schemes, it's not just simply about money,

:19:25.:19:30.

and do everything he can to support them? I am happy to do that and I

:19:31.:19:35.

will echo her praise for this staff at Nottingham University trust, who

:19:36.:19:39.

I know where particularly pressured over Christmas, and two I know made

:19:40.:19:42.

particular efforts to improve patient safety at the recent years.

:19:43.:19:48.

But, she's absolutely right and I will continue to work closely with

:19:49.:19:56.

her trust. At 930 this morning I received an e-mail from a

:19:57.:19:59.

constituent in Coventry who asked me to bring it to the Secretary of

:20:00.:20:04.

State's attention and I'm late to do so. She writes as fied "I'm an nice

:20:05.:20:10.

with 26 years experience who is always worked full-time -- I'm an

:20:11.:20:20.

nice. But I have gladly served and given 100% to do it. Unfortunately,

:20:21.:20:25.

my 18-year-old daughter has recently become and were mentally and

:20:26.:20:29.

attempted suicide twice in a three-week period. I'm sad to say,

:20:30.:20:35.

this comes in nursery 26 years experience. The care she has been

:20:36.:20:43.

given is appalling. I expect that as a family who gave so much to society

:20:44.:20:49.

and still do, when it is our time in need we can expect a service that

:20:50.:20:58.

meets our needs. " Could you arrange... She continues that she

:20:59.:21:06.

has been waiting six months without any mental health assessment or

:21:07.:21:11.

support from the NHS, six months for a daughter of 18 years of age. Will

:21:12.:21:16.

he agreed to meet her so it's just not more hollow words? I am more

:21:17.:21:21.

than happy to meet her, but I would rather, what I would like to do

:21:22.:21:24.

ahead of that is to look at the particular issue as to why she has

:21:25.:21:30.

to wait so long. He puts it very eloquently, and she puts eloquently,

:21:31.:21:31.

we Of thank you. The House of, is

:21:32.:21:57.

library calculated the real terms increase in health related spending

:21:58.:22:02.

between 2010 and 2016 in England was 9.4%. But it was zero in Wales. Not

:22:03.:22:09.

only are A waiting times longer in Wales than in England but routine

:22:10.:22:13.

procedures can take two and a half times longer in Wales. I regularly

:22:14.:22:18.

see constituents in tears waiting well in excess of the year for hip

:22:19.:22:23.

operations. Would the secretary of state agreed that the party opposite

:22:24.:22:28.

must start acknowledging the challenges that the NHS Wales and

:22:29.:22:34.

responsibility for them? I think his constituents in Wales would be

:22:35.:22:38.

appalled by the reaction we have just had then. They stand on their

:22:39.:22:42.

high horse complaining about NHS care in England but when he brings

:22:43.:22:49.

up poor NHS care in Wales they make noises as if they don't want to hear

:22:50.:22:55.

it. If they care about NHS patients, they should care about them through

:22:56.:22:59.

the whole of the United Kingdom. NHS care in Wales is worse and they need

:23:00.:23:03.

to do something about it. Avec Cooper. I have been contacted by

:23:04.:23:12.

several constituents who spent 14 hours in A waiting for a bed. We

:23:13.:23:18.

have been hampered by social care cuts, by a shortage of A doctors.

:23:19.:23:23.

Some think the health department was warned would become a growing

:23:24.:23:27.

problem over five years ago. And the Health Select Committee warned about

:23:28.:23:33.

again last year. When will this shortage of A doctors be ended by

:23:34.:23:37.

the government, by the summer? By next year, the following year? He

:23:38.:23:43.

has had seven years. When will he deal with the shortage of A

:23:44.:23:55.

doctors? The number of A doctors have gone up since 2010 by 1002 and

:23:56.:24:02.

that, over 50% increase. The number of A consultants has gone up by

:24:03.:24:10.

20%. We have recruited 2000 more paramedics and as a result of those

:24:11.:24:14.

changes, are a emergency departments are seeing, within the four hour

:24:15.:24:19.

target, 2500 people more every single day, compared to 2010. It is

:24:20.:24:25.

not to minimise the pressures in the NHS over winter and that doesn't say

:24:26.:24:30.

there isn't more that needs to be done, which is why I outlined a

:24:31.:24:35.

number of things in my statement. The Secretary of State came to see

:24:36.:24:41.

the plans of the emergency room at Worthing hospital. I hope next time

:24:42.:24:45.

he comes he can look at the Community Hospital and the mental

:24:46.:24:50.

health services as well. Can I put to him on the child mental health

:24:51.:24:54.

care, we have 700,000 teenagers going through each year, each stage

:24:55.:24:59.

and a quarter of them will have bumps and need resilience. The

:25:00.:25:02.

parents and teachers need help, can he make sure the Green paper covers

:25:03.:25:06.

advice to parents and teachers so they know what's in the normal range

:25:07.:25:10.

of behaviours and what is outside them? Can I commend the right

:25:11.:25:17.

honourable gentleman for his one-man campaign against the misinformation

:25:18.:25:21.

put out by 38 degrees, which I continue to admire on many

:25:22.:25:25.

occasions. Also thank the staff at Worthing hospital for their

:25:26.:25:30.

fantastic work over the busy period. He puts his finger on a very

:25:31.:25:35.

important issue, which is, as we seek to raise the profile of mental

:25:36.:25:40.

health treatment for children and young people, what we mustn't do is

:25:41.:25:46.

medicalise every single moments of stress, worries before exams, those

:25:47.:25:53.

are not a cause to talk to an NHS psychiatrist. A lot of our work on

:25:54.:25:56.

the green paper will be how we can promote self health, support schools

:25:57.:26:04.

to help people but when they do need NHL 's help, they get it quickly. It

:26:05.:26:08.

is great to see the Secretary of State here in the chamber after

:26:09.:26:13.

enjoying his Christmas recess. While he was away, stuff on the NHS front

:26:14.:26:19.

line had to work double shifts. The London Ambulance Service computer

:26:20.:26:25.

system crashed. And we also found the Red Cross needed to be drafted

:26:26.:26:30.

into our hospitals. Can the Secretary of State tell us today,

:26:31.:26:33.

which hospitals he personally visited during the Christmas recess?

:26:34.:26:41.

Let me just say, I was in touch with what was happening in the NHS every

:26:42.:26:44.

day throughout the Christmas recess. But as someone who has worked in a

:26:45.:26:50.

hospital herself, she might perhaps think about whether it is

:26:51.:26:55.

particularly helpful for NHS hospitals to have visits by

:26:56.:26:57.

high-profile politicians right at their busiest period. But I have

:26:58.:27:04.

been very closely in touch. She talked about the problems at London

:27:05.:27:08.

Ambulance Service, which was a problem, which staff had been

:27:09.:27:15.

trained to deal with. I just say to her, her own hospital, the staff

:27:16.:27:19.

worked extremely well. What they don't welcome is the attempts, I

:27:20.:27:23.

think she is making this afternoon, to try to politicise the the NHS

:27:24.:27:29.

faces. In connection with the changes to the four hour stand of

:27:30.:27:32.

the Secretary of State has heralded, what does he think can be done to

:27:33.:27:37.

incentivise and upscale GPs, who may wish to a closer interest in minor

:27:38.:27:43.

and moderate illnesses, including the use of nurse led minor injury

:27:44.:27:49.

units? These have a very important role and I think if we look at some

:27:50.:27:55.

of the most successful and best performing trusts in the country

:27:56.:27:59.

like Luton and Dunstable for example, what they do is they have a

:28:00.:28:03.

very good streaming process at the front door with good alternatives

:28:04.:28:09.

for people who are not appropriate to go into an A department. Nurse

:28:10.:28:16.

led units can be important, GP led units can make a difference as well.

:28:17.:28:20.

It won't be the same everywhere, for reasons of space and nothing else,

:28:21.:28:26.

but there is a solution everyone can adopt. We have seen in the last few

:28:27.:28:32.

weeks, pressures in the NHS, but what is surprising to me, given we

:28:33.:28:39.

are not in the midst of a desperate cold spell yaps, we're not in the

:28:40.:28:45.

throes of a flu epidemic, how can the secretary of state come here

:28:46.:28:47.

today and I think in place in league, suggest he has a grip on the

:28:48.:28:52.

services in the NHS. I'd like to know why he wasn't on top of those

:28:53.:28:56.

trusts he knew for a week and potentially under threat if any

:28:57.:28:59.

pressure occurred. What will he do when we hit the cold snap and people

:29:00.:29:03.

are suffering from flu in large numbers? I reject that suggestion

:29:04.:29:09.

and if you want to know what we have been doing over the course of the

:29:10.:29:15.

year, as I said in my statement, we have 1600 more doctors than a year

:29:16.:29:20.

ago. Over 3000 more nurses. We have the biggest flu vaccination in our

:29:21.:29:27.

history, we have additional GP sessions booked over the festive

:29:28.:29:31.

period. There was a huge amount of work being done and the particular

:29:32.:29:37.

focus on distressed areas. Many of those distressed areas did cope

:29:38.:29:40.

extremely well, not all of them, which is why there is more work to

:29:41.:29:46.

do. The health committee in the last parliament luck that children's

:29:47.:29:50.

mental health services and one of the main concerns was distances

:29:51.:29:54.

travelled by patients, sometimes halfway across the country to get

:29:55.:30:00.

treatment. Can you expand on his plans, and is it a new form of

:30:01.:30:04.

gatekeeper and can he keep drunks out of A? Rather than the phrase

:30:05.:30:13.

gatekeeper, I would use the word streaming and make sure we have

:30:14.:30:16.

alternative offers for people who don't need to be in A departments.

:30:17.:30:25.

That is not safe for A departments to have people there for six or

:30:26.:30:30.

eight hours, it is distracting for staff and harder for them to do with

:30:31.:30:34.

people who have more immediate needs. In terms of the distances

:30:35.:30:39.

travelling, it is an acceptable for people to go 400 miles for a mental

:30:40.:30:44.

health bed. What is the solution? We are commissioning more beds, but the

:30:45.:30:48.

solution is to intervene earlier, so people don't get to the stage in

:30:49.:30:52.

treatment where they need inpatient care. We know if we intervene

:30:53.:30:56.

earlier, in many cases, we can head off that need and help people get

:30:57.:31:03.

better quickly. This afternoon, the patients in Nottingham are waiting

:31:04.:31:06.

for more than four hours. In the last month, figures are available,

:31:07.:31:12.

3500 people who had to wait for more than four hours in the emergency

:31:13.:31:16.

department. We cannot go on like this. Will he agree to fast-track

:31:17.:31:24.

the capital we need to increase capacity at Nottingham's emergency

:31:25.:31:27.

department? I will happily take a look at that and when it comes to

:31:28.:31:32.

the allocation of capital, we do prioritise any project that will

:31:33.:31:37.

help improve the situation in any department and reduce stresses. The

:31:38.:31:42.

Secretary of State has acknowledged there is a shortage of acute mental

:31:43.:31:46.

health beds and there's arises from a decision by many health trusts to

:31:47.:31:51.

close beds and favour putting resources into services in the

:31:52.:31:56.

community. One effect of this, people approaching and mental health

:31:57.:32:00.

crisis find it harder to know where to turn for help. Will he explain

:32:01.:32:06.

more about the crisis provision in which we are now investing this

:32:07.:32:10.

extra ?50 million, and in particular is there a common way of knowing how

:32:11.:32:14.

one can easily access these vital services? I am happy to supply more

:32:15.:32:22.

details. The ?50 million is for places of safety that is

:32:23.:32:25.

specifically focused on support for the police service, so we can make

:32:26.:32:30.

sure we live up to what will be our legal commitment from this year, not

:32:31.:32:35.

to send young people into police cells, when actually what they need

:32:36.:32:39.

is a mental health support. But more broadly, he is right, there is a

:32:40.:32:43.

policy change, which I think most people think is the right thing,

:32:44.:32:46.

which is to treat more people in the community where we possibly can.

:32:47.:32:52.

What I think is not working is the system which divides people up into

:32:53.:32:57.

40 years. Sometimes we say to people, we cannot treat you because

:32:58.:33:04.

we are in TF three and you are not sick enough. That is not acceptable

:33:05.:33:09.

and that is why we are doing this Green paper and we want to look at a

:33:10.:33:15.

way forward. Does the Secretary of State accept it is not solely down

:33:16.:33:19.

just to an ageing society in the crisis and deepening crisis of the

:33:20.:33:24.

NHS and the failure to provide sufficient funding is the key to

:33:25.:33:27.

this crisis and therefore it is possible to address and what will he

:33:28.:33:36.

do about it? If she is worried about funding, she might explain why

:33:37.:33:39.

funding for the NHS in England went up by double the rate than funding

:33:40.:33:43.

in Scotland over the last Parliament. But she is right... I

:33:44.:33:50.

will get heard the figures on Northern Ireland. I say that by way

:33:51.:34:02.

of reference. But let me agree with her, as well as apologising for my

:34:03.:34:06.

earlier error, let me agree with her, it isn't just about the ageing

:34:07.:34:12.

society. It is also about changing consumer expectations, people want

:34:13.:34:16.

access to health care 20 47 today in a way that wasn't the case ten or 20

:34:17.:34:22.

years ago and that is a cause of a lot of the additional pressure. I

:34:23.:34:29.

welcome this announcement on mental health and it is clear the

:34:30.:34:32.

government is serious about improving mental health treatment

:34:33.:34:37.

and prevention. The challenge is to translate ambitions into action. Can

:34:38.:34:41.

my right honourable friend assure me he will put in place mechanisms to

:34:42.:34:45.

make sure these proposals and those in the five-year forward view for

:34:46.:34:49.

mental health become reality? And specifically, would he look that one

:34:50.:34:53.

step is to make sure that no STD is signed off without clear plans of

:34:54.:34:59.

funding for improving mental health care. -- STP. It is happening and

:35:00.:35:03.

one of the key metrics by which we will be junked judging STPs. She is

:35:04.:35:14.

right ambitions need to be turned into action. But because of the

:35:15.:35:17.

Commons that she and many other members have made over the last few

:35:18.:35:21.

years, she will find there is much more understanding in the NHS that

:35:22.:35:27.

this is a big priority. We need to stop resources constantly being

:35:28.:35:29.

sucked into the acute sector, as has happened over many years. The

:35:30.:35:39.

Secretary of State announced the government were pressing ahead with

:35:40.:35:42.

significant cuts to community pharmacy budget in the Department of

:35:43.:35:45.

Health, in the face of huge opposition from members of both

:35:46.:35:49.

sides of hours, members of the public and health care

:35:50.:35:52.

professionals. Given evidence one in five people, who would normally see

:35:53.:35:56.

a pharmacist for medical advice, say they will make a GP appointment if

:35:57.:36:01.

the local pharmacist is closed and in areas of high deprivation I moan,

:36:02.:36:06.

it is four in five. Many of these people will turn about the local

:36:07.:36:10.

hospital in desperation. Isn't the government in danger of making an

:36:11.:36:13.

appalling crisis in the NHS even worse? We are having to ask the

:36:14.:36:20.

pharmacy sector to make efficiency savings, just as we are asking all

:36:21.:36:24.

part of the NHS make efficiency savings. 40% of pharmacies are

:36:25.:36:30.

clustered in groups of three or more. Does make sense for the to

:36:31.:36:37.

continue to subsidise pharmacies that are very close to river

:36:38.:36:41.

pharmacies, so this is to ensure that where there is only one local

:36:42.:36:44.

pharmacy, that pharmacies protected. Does my right honourable friend

:36:45.:36:54.

acknowledge the damaging effect that loneliness can have on mental

:36:55.:37:00.

health, and will he join me in welcoming the Jo Cox loneliness

:37:01.:37:07.

commission later this month? I am happy to do that and to acknowledge

:37:08.:37:11.

the importance of this issue, when it comes to older people per latest

:37:12.:37:17.

figures I have seen is that 5 million older people say that their

:37:18.:37:21.

main form of company if the television. That is not acceptable

:37:22.:37:24.

and we all have the responsibility to do better in that the spec. Not

:37:25.:37:28.

just from moral point of view but from a practical point of view, this

:37:29.:37:34.

leads to people more likely to need hospital treatment which is

:37:35.:37:37.

expensive and challenging for the NHS. Thank you Mr Speaker. The

:37:38.:37:44.

secretary of this date has talked a great deal about preventing people

:37:45.:37:50.

getting to A by intervening much earlier, yet surely he has to do

:37:51.:37:53.

recognise that the cuts that have been made to local authorities, in

:37:54.:37:59.

social care make it much more likely that people will not be picked up

:38:00.:38:04.

earlier in the progress of any illness and will go and have to

:38:05.:38:08.

resort to the health service in a much more difficult situation. Can't

:38:09.:38:13.

he now have a discussion with his colleagues on the front bench and

:38:14.:38:18.

tell them, particularly the Chancellor, that they have got this

:38:19.:38:23.

wrong, we have to do invest in preventative services, we funding

:38:24.:38:30.

authorities not cutting. It means investing in proper social care, not

:38:31.:38:35.

the ?5 billion of cuts that we have seen in social persons 2020,

:38:36.:38:40.

otherwise the pressure on our NHS will discontinue. Actually, I agree

:38:41.:38:47.

with her broad points about the importance of the social care system

:38:48.:38:51.

and its interconnectedness with the NHS and we faced in 2010 as you well

:38:52.:38:56.

knows, because her party's manifesting the fact that this is

:38:57.:39:01.

well, we faced a very challenging economic situation in which both

:39:02.:39:04.

parties recognised the need for cuts to be made in public spending, but

:39:05.:39:10.

what teams in 2015 at least in our party 's manifesto was the

:39:11.:39:13.

recognition that actually when it came to social care we need to make

:39:14.:39:18.

sure we increased funding into the social care. And all local

:39:19.:39:25.

authorities are now able to increase funding for social care in real

:39:26.:39:28.

terms and I hope we can start turning things around. Thank you

:39:29.:39:36.

very much, with the recent educational select committee report

:39:37.:39:39.

on children in care in mind I certainly welcome the Prime

:39:40.:39:44.

Minister's be focused on mental health and the Secretary of State's

:39:45.:39:47.

continued support of action to be taken, but what steps does he has in

:39:48.:39:51.

mind to deliver actual practical steps given that we found that local

:39:52.:39:56.

integration, effective relationships and the teaching of PSA cheeks all

:39:57.:40:02.

helped to produce good outcomes. I think he's absolutely right and

:40:03.:40:05.

obviously his role in the select committee will give him a particular

:40:06.:40:11.

insight into this. But, we don't want to rush to come to a solution

:40:12.:40:15.

on this which is why we will simply do a green paper before the end of

:40:16.:40:21.

the year because it is complex. As the other honourable members have

:40:22.:40:25.

alluded to the risk of metallising problems when we know that all young

:40:26.:40:29.

people at school have periods of stress and anxiety and worry that an

:40:30.:40:33.

diagnosable mental health conditions and we wouldn't want to make them as

:40:34.:40:38.

such. So, this is about thinking through a smart way to improve

:40:39.:40:44.

self-help and also to educate school so that they are able to spot when

:40:45.:40:48.

this is just a temporary period, in the run-up to exams or whatever, or

:40:49.:40:53.

whether it could be something a lot more serious like OCD or an eating

:40:54.:40:57.

disorder or something that needs more immediate help. That is

:40:58.:41:02.

something went to date we have started a big education programmes

:41:03.:41:06.

with schools ball and go further. Q. I would like to welcome the extra

:41:07.:41:12.

investment if it turns out to be extra investment in mental health. I

:41:13.:41:19.

wanted to push the Secretary of State and the question around

:41:20.:41:21.

educational psychology and how that is going to work in, I speak as a

:41:22.:41:30.

mother of a child with SEN issues who has relied on clinical and

:41:31.:41:33.

educational psychology in schools and the school where my children

:41:34.:41:37.

currently goes to is increasing the class sizes and 30 to 33 and

:41:38.:41:42.

reducing the teaching staff specifically those who engage in SEN

:41:43.:41:48.

children, because of changes to educational funding. I wondered the

:41:49.:41:51.

Secretary of State and tell me how he thinks that will affect the

:41:52.:41:55.

children's mental health in my children's school? I think she

:41:56.:42:02.

raises an important issue and I know that I have had constituents and I'm

:42:03.:42:07.

sure she has as well, where they found access to educational

:42:08.:42:10.

psychologists difficult and couldn't get a plan approved that they needed

:42:11.:42:14.

to. This is what we will be considering in the build-up to the

:42:15.:42:18.

green paper and I would encourage her to participate in the process.

:42:19.:42:23.

Thank you, will the Health Secretary please get the message out there

:42:24.:42:27.

loud and clear to health bosses up and down the country that we need

:42:28.:42:33.

more capacity in our A so that when people come forward to NHS

:42:34.:42:38.

England with the request for money for their appalling plan to

:42:39.:42:44.

downgrade my local A, all those Huddersfield Royal Infirmary replace

:42:45.:42:47.

it with a small unit with smaller bets, that that money would be

:42:48.:42:53.

better spent on front line a need care. I of course take seriously

:42:54.:43:02.

everything he says and I will say this, the NHS doesn't always get

:43:03.:43:08.

these things right. I led a campaign against an A closure in my own

:43:09.:43:12.

constituency when as a backbencher. And the party apps it was empower

:43:13.:43:17.

and they were about to take a wholly mistaken decision. Bass macro Dub

:43:18.:43:20.

party opposite was in power. So we will look carefully, and I do

:43:21.:43:30.

think that the broader point he makes is that we have to understand

:43:31.:43:34.

that the pasty matters. I would say that in the long run we are not

:43:35.:43:38.

going to solve this problem simply by the increasing capacity in a any.

:43:39.:43:44.

Because we need alternative forms of provision. Bass macro capacity in

:43:45.:43:53.

the A We need to find ways of... That is what we are exploring. I

:43:54.:43:59.

declare an interest as my husband is an A consultant. If the Secretary

:44:00.:44:05.

of State would speak to him he would tell him that the extra pressure on

:44:06.:44:12.

A, as we have had, because of the disappearance of preventative power

:44:13.:44:17.

of social care, and of other services. It's not individuals

:44:18.:44:21.

arriving at a any who should and it is other services with varying

:44:22.:44:29.

people to A when they shouldn't. -- referring people. Would the

:44:30.:44:34.

Secretary of State take responsibility for his government's

:44:35.:44:38.

decisions over eight years that have panned out to be false economies of

:44:39.:44:46.

cutting services back to the bone. With respect, I agree with the broad

:44:47.:44:51.

principle that preventative care is absolutely vital, I disagree with

:44:52.:44:54.

the suggestion that this has been cut to the bone. We had an increase

:44:55.:45:04.

of 5% more and peas Tuohy GPs last parliament. -- and increase of 5%

:45:05.:45:11.

more GPs. Both at the last election and the one before, the party

:45:12.:45:19.

promising the most resources for the NHS was on this side and not on her

:45:20.:45:26.

side. Everyone knows the Secretary of State has an impossible job which

:45:27.:45:33.

he does with humanity and energy, but the two tier system that we had

:45:34.:45:38.

depending on where you live, in the North Lincolnshire you can wait

:45:39.:45:42.

three weeks to see a doctor or two hours for an ambulance to come, on

:45:43.:45:48.

top of lack of investment. Two hours people of weighted lying in the

:45:49.:45:54.

street waiting for an ambulance. This is not acceptable. -- people

:45:55.:46:03.

have waited. I just wonder whether we don't need to start an honest

:46:04.:46:08.

discussion with the people about how we're going to devote more resources

:46:09.:46:14.

to help in this country, perhaps social in Shawlands models or

:46:15.:46:19.

leaving, God forbid, charging people who don't turn up to appointment. --

:46:20.:46:26.

social in Shawlands models. I don't agree with moving to a social in

:46:27.:46:33.

Shawlands model, but the broader issue is something that I do have

:46:34.:46:37.

some sympathy with. We have to recognise that if we're going to

:46:38.:46:42.

have a million more over 65 is, over the decades ahead we will have to

:46:43.:46:46.

find a way to continue to invest more in our health and social care

:46:47.:46:50.

systems. This year we are doing that women extra 3.8 billion, over the

:46:51.:46:54.

decades ahead governments will continue to need to do. He had led

:46:55.:47:01.

rightly a specific problem, which I don't have the solution to. But I

:47:02.:47:05.

understand the problem that in ball areas the book away too long for

:47:06.:47:09.

ambulances. This system of targets that we have in sensor size

:47:10.:47:19.

Ambulance Services... That is something that I will look at. The

:47:20.:47:27.

Secretary of State houses he has a strategy, so I issue me must be on

:47:28.:47:33.

top of these facts. Can I ask him, as the latest count this week how

:47:34.:47:40.

many beds where being locked in hospitals by people that could be

:47:41.:47:43.

discharged but there went the facilities in the community? More

:47:44.:47:53.

than a third of A attendances at peak times are caused by jewel in

:47:54.:47:58.

this, which is unacceptable and irresponsible, what more can we do

:47:59.:48:02.

the hugely reduced that proportion by this time next year? -- caused by

:48:03.:48:10.

the slump in this. I think the issue he raises is one about public

:48:11.:48:17.

responsibility, these are our National Health Service is and we

:48:18.:48:20.

need to treat them in a responsible way and it is selfish to behave in

:48:21.:48:26.

an irresponsible way and create pressure on an A which means that

:48:27.:48:29.

somebody else who needs the help might not be able to get it. Is the

:48:30.:48:35.

Secretary of State accusing the Red Cross of weapon I think the National

:48:36.:48:40.

Health Service, and secondly can I say when the NHS is making courts

:48:41.:48:44.

the services that supper time and time again are the so-called

:48:45.:48:51.

Cinderella services ie mental health services. The only way to prevent

:48:52.:49:01.

that is to ring fence that funding. Finally, the other thing that

:49:02.:49:06.

happens is when you cut local authority services to the bone is

:49:07.:49:11.

that they can only provide strategy services. What is stopping the

:49:12.:49:18.

Secretary of State commissioning and all parties group to look at the

:49:19.:49:23.

sustainable long-term funding model for social care? The Prime Minister

:49:24.:49:27.

has said that we need to find a long-term solution to the funding of

:49:28.:49:31.

social care and that is work that is ongoing and we recognise the urgency

:49:32.:49:37.

of the situation. But, I would simply say, the evidence about

:49:38.:49:41.

whether or not services for mental health are reaching the front line

:49:42.:49:45.

is whether actually more money is being spent on mental health

:49:46.:49:48.

provision then in previous years and it is about ability of pounds more

:49:49.:49:57.

being spent 20 years ago. Thank you. The AA in me at Worcester and

:49:58.:50:02.

Alexandra Hospital in Redditch have been under huge pressure. -- be a

:50:03.:50:08.

any macro. Can he reassure patients that all is being done to help

:50:09.:50:13.

alleviate the situation now, and also what we really need at odd

:50:14.:50:17.

trust is a capital bid of 29 million to be agreed to increase capacity to

:50:18.:50:26.

alleviate this problem. I totally recognise that and I want to thank

:50:27.:50:32.

her for her interest on behalf of her own constituents in what has

:50:33.:50:35.

been happening. Subject to staffing there will be a new ward opening at

:50:36.:50:40.

the trust next week. We have a new Chief Executive arriving at the

:50:41.:50:45.

trust in the spring. We recognised the need for capital spending to

:50:46.:50:50.

increase capacity of both the Alex and the Royal and we will look

:50:51.:50:58.

sympathetically at that. He couldn't resist his customary political

:50:59.:51:02.

attack on the Wells NHS, I had cause to visit my local hospital to go to

:51:03.:51:08.

a new macro with a family member. And there was a speedy and expect

:51:09.:51:14.

service. -- go to my Amy macro. Can I invite him to congratulate the

:51:15.:51:20.

Welsh Labour government and not having to call in the Red Cross and

:51:21.:51:27.

to congratulate them on their long standing emphasis on mental health

:51:28.:51:31.

meaning we spend more per capita in Wales than in England or indeed any

:51:32.:51:36.

part of the UK notwithstanding the ?2 billion cut he has made to the

:51:37.:51:38.

Welsh budget in the last six years? What he wasn't prepared to say

:51:39.:51:49.

people wait twice as long very hip replacement in Wales, more than

:51:50.:51:50.

double the proportion of the double the proportion of the

:51:51.:51:53.

population are on a waiting list for NHS care, that's one in seven people

:51:54.:51:58.

in Wales compared to one in one in 15 in England and you are 40 times

:51:59.:52:03.

more likely to be waiting for a diagnostic test result waiting too

:52:04.:52:05.

long for a test result in Wales compared to England. Thank you, Mr

:52:06.:52:12.

Speaker. The Secretary of State will be aware that our hospitals have

:52:13.:52:18.

been under pressure due to be demographics and ageing population.

:52:19.:52:20.

Will he agree that it's encouraging Will he agree that it's encouraging

:52:21.:52:26.

to hear work being done on Friday to make sure doctors can be available

:52:27.:52:30.

to those who need them and that people are sent away to specialists

:52:31.:52:33.

who can help them like a physiotherapist rather than taking

:52:34.:52:39.

up vital GP appointments? Indeed. I congratulate all the NHS and social

:52:40.:52:42.

care staff in Derby doing a fantastic job. Also on the

:52:43.:52:47.

pioneering work we have done, which I know has made a huge difference to

:52:48.:52:54.

his constituents. Over the New Year, East Midlands Ambulance Service saw

:52:55.:52:56.

life-threatening calls up 42% on life-threatening calls up 42% on

:52:57.:52:59.

last year. Beauty of Nottingham last year. Beauty of Nottingham

:53:00.:53:02.

University Hospital trust described the emergency department as pushed

:53:03.:53:07.

to the limit. The honourable member has already said almost double the

:53:08.:53:11.

normal number of hospital admissions. Clearly these were

:53:12.:53:14.

necessary attendances but surely many of them could have been

:53:15.:53:20.

prevented. He has already acknowledged the connection between

:53:21.:53:21.

inadequate social care and this is inadequate social care and this is

:53:22.:53:26.

entirely foreseeable prices. I ask again, will he commit his Government

:53:27.:53:33.

to properly fund it? I just find these questions about funding

:53:34.:53:37.

curious coming from a party that had we followed their plans would be

:53:38.:53:43.

spending ?1.3 billion less on the NHS this year compared to what the

:53:44.:53:47.

NHS is actually getting. I just say to them the reason that we are able

:53:48.:53:53.

to spend that extra money on the NHS is because we know how to run the

:53:54.:54:02.

economy. It's all too often been the case that mental health patients

:54:03.:54:06.

have wondered if this issue actually has another leadership. I'm pleased

:54:07.:54:10.

to see the Prime Minister made one of her earlier speeches on this

:54:11.:54:14.

particular issue. While no one in this house would oppose an extra 1.4

:54:15.:54:18.

billion being invested, this Parliament echoes the words of the

:54:19.:54:22.

chief executive, the proof will be chief executive, the proof will be

:54:23.:54:27.

in the investment -- the impact this investment has an day-to-day

:54:28.:54:31.

experiences. While the minister meet with me to discuss the plans for a

:54:32.:54:35.

new psychiatric and demented unit in Bath in order to service the whole

:54:36.:54:41.

of the south-west? I am happy on his behalf to ask the Minister to meet

:54:42.:54:44.

him to discuss that psychiatric unit. -- dementia. The proof of the

:54:45.:54:51.

pudding is in the eating. This is the first time I can remember that a

:54:52.:54:56.

Prime Minister has made her first major speech on the NHS about mental

:54:57.:55:01.

health and talked about the importance of sorting out mental

:55:02.:55:04.

health on the steps of Downing Street as she arrived. That is a

:55:05.:55:07.

sign of the commitment coming right from the job. The fabulous team at

:55:08.:55:15.

Imperial St Mary 's in west London are featuring any TV programme this

:55:16.:55:20.

week. The cheese service for emergency care is reported as

:55:21.:55:24.

saying, we have just had our worst ten days on record, there is nowhere

:55:25.:55:27.

in the hospital to move anybody. What happened in the two years, the

:55:28.:55:32.

whole system country wind has grown to a halt. Part of that is because

:55:33.:55:36.

there is more than the goblet of a ward of patients at any time you

:55:37.:55:40.

cannot move out of the hospital because there is nowhere for them to

:55:41.:55:44.

go. Does the Secretary of State except his Government has gone too

:55:45.:55:47.

far in the destruction of local Government finance, including social

:55:48.:55:52.

care, and does he accept that despite all the rhetoric, next year

:55:53.:55:55.

and local Government finance will go down not up? First of all, I would

:55:56.:56:04.

like to thank the staff at Imperial alongside other NHS staff and

:56:05.:56:05.

utterly fantastic job over a utterly fantastic job over a

:56:06.:56:07.

difficult period. 50% of councils difficult period. 50% of councils

:56:08.:56:12.

have got no delayed discharges of care. Whilst this is a problem in

:56:13.:56:17.

many hospitals, there are many areas managing to deal with this problem.

:56:18.:56:20.

That's why I would suggest the local authorities that serve her

:56:21.:56:23.

constituencies should look at other parts of that are dealing with this

:56:24.:56:31.

problem. I welcome the provision of mental health facilities services

:56:32.:56:39.

for schools, but will it use either the type of first aid he is

:56:40.:56:44.

proposing for this is available to MPs and their staff? Given the

:56:45.:56:46.

number of people with mental health problems that we deal with. Is an

:56:47.:56:55.

absolutely excellent suggestion. I'm very happy to take it up. The

:56:56.:57:03.

problems we've been hearing in A E throughout the afternoon are

:57:04.:57:06.

symptomatic of problems elsewhere in the system. If you take Aintree

:57:07.:57:12.

Hospital, where the staff are doing a fantastic job in very difficult

:57:13.:57:17.

circumstances, a patients as of today are medically fit for

:57:18.:57:22.

discharge. Social services are simply unable to support them to go

:57:23.:57:27.

home or to go into care elsewhere. He needs to accept the cuts of ?4.6

:57:28.:57:35.

billion to social services was a mistake. He needs to accept the

:57:36.:57:40.

better care fund is simply not delivering, it is money

:57:41.:57:41.

recycled from elsewhere in the recycled from elsewhere in the

:57:42.:57:45.

system and if you look at the figures in Sefton, Sefton were

:57:46.:57:49.

promised 9 million, they have had less than 1 million. If he is

:57:50.:57:53.

serious about sorting out the problems in social care over the

:57:54.:57:56.

long term, he needs to get the funding right and he needs to

:57:57.:58:01.

reinvest all of those cuts that have been made. I do except there needs

:58:02.:58:05.

to be more funding going into social care, that's why we're putting an

:58:06.:58:10.

extra ?3.5 billion into social care around by the end of Parliament.

:58:11.:58:16.

What I would say to him is that even despite the very real pleasures in

:58:17.:58:21.

social care, there are many local authority areas, many hospitals that

:58:22.:58:24.

have no delayed discharges of care at all. Half of all the delayed

:58:25.:58:29.

discharges are just 20 local authorities. As we wait for that

:58:30.:58:32.

funding to come on stream, it's not all coming on stream at the start of

:58:33.:58:35.

Parliament, there's lots that can be done. Can I thank the Secretary of

:58:36.:58:42.

State for paying tribute to front line staff, I declare an interest to

:58:43.:58:47.

someone who worked over the NHS over the Christmas period and saw

:58:48.:58:51.

first-hand the pressures front line staff are facing. These winter

:58:52.:58:54.

pressures are replaced every year, certainly in my 20 expenses of

:58:55.:58:59.

working as a nurse. -- 20 years. Would he also paid tribute to mental

:59:00.:59:03.

health care nurses in Sussex and Sussex Police? Who by their joint

:59:04.:59:09.

working have reduced the amount of patients who have been placed in a

:59:10.:59:13.

prison cell, as the place of safety by 50% and Digne County Beachy head,

:59:14.:59:22.

that is a huge achievement. First of all, I welcome your contribution to

:59:23.:59:27.

this House as a practising night. I am more than happy to pay tribute to

:59:28.:59:32.

our brilliant mental health and those who I think have one of the

:59:33.:59:36.

most stressful jobs you can have. Particularly those in Sussex with

:59:37.:59:43.

particular tragic suicide hotspots. With the cold weather coming, could

:59:44.:59:48.

I return to the point of the flu epidemic risk and see that a

:59:49.:59:52.

desperate doctor wrote to me last night to say, sooner or later there

:59:53.:59:57.

will be an epidemic and, lately tell you, we cannot cope. Another shift,

:59:58.:00:01.

and other full hospital, and other gridlocked ana, more desperate and

:00:02.:00:09.

desperate patients. Another 14 or 13 hour shift with 110 minute break.

:00:10.:00:13.

Some patients and relatives get angry, some despair, most watchers

:00:14.:00:18.

and realise we can't physically do anything more. Please help me as the

:00:19.:00:20.

MPT represent her and please help us MPT represent her and please help us

:00:21.:00:28.

to have more staff. -- MPs. That Doctor speaks for many doctors who

:00:29.:00:33.

are working incredibly hard, particularly in our emergency

:00:34.:00:35.

department. I would say to that department. I would say to that

:00:36.:00:38.

doctor that we recognise the need for more doctors, we are recruiting

:00:39.:00:42.

more doctors, not just across the NHS but in emergency departments in

:00:43.:00:46.

particular. We also recognise that we need to find a different way of

:00:47.:00:51.

dealing with some of the patients who come to the hospital front door

:00:52.:00:54.

so we can alleviate that pressure and that's what we are looking at. I

:00:55.:01:03.

my constituency, an award winning my constituency, an award winning

:01:04.:01:07.

charity which improves the well-being of those suffering from

:01:08.:01:11.

mental health conditions. I welcome the Prime Minister's and enter this

:01:12.:01:13.

morning raising awareness of that ongoing stigma with regards to

:01:14.:01:17.

mental health. As well of course is the ?1 billion investment and the

:01:18.:01:20.

commitment to improving services. Would the minister be prepared to

:01:21.:01:26.

investigate such schemes as the one I have mentioned to ensure the

:01:27.:01:28.

treatment of those suffering from mental health is not simply limited

:01:29.:01:34.

to the provision of medication? I am prepared to do that. I think we do

:01:35.:01:37.

need to be very open-minded about the fact that mental health in some

:01:38.:01:44.

ways is a relatively new field, research as to what works best is

:01:45.:01:47.

continuing to uncover many new things. Much of that research is

:01:48.:01:51.

happening in this country. There has been a big move away from thinking

:01:52.:01:54.

that medication is with the best way forward. We have seen a huge

:01:55.:01:59.

expansion in therapies over the last two years in this country and that

:02:00.:02:05.

trend will continue. Thank you. Despite the best efforts of

:02:06.:02:08.

dedicated NHS staff, patients attending one of my local A E were

:02:09.:02:13.

told they would have to wait 11 hours just to be seen. People were

:02:14.:02:18.

in hospital trolleys for almost 20 hours routinely. Mental health

:02:19.:02:22.

patients were sent to Colchester because that was the nearest

:02:23.:02:26.

inpatient bed available for a 17-year-old and somebody I know

:02:27.:02:30.

waited six hours for a 999 ambulance, despite calling nine NN

:02:31.:02:33.

three times. We can do better than this, Secretary of State. To that

:02:34.:02:38.

end, I implore you, plead with you, to intervene and suspend the

:02:39.:02:45.

needless downgrade of Dewsbury and Huddersfield hospital, the downgrade

:02:46.:02:51.

of which will cost lives. None of the examples of poor care that she

:02:52.:02:56.

talks about remotely acceptable. Let me say to her that on my watch and I

:02:57.:02:59.

this Government we will see no return to the bad old days where

:03:00.:03:02.

people were routinely waiting far too long. We are recognising the

:03:03.:03:09.

problems we've just had and we are absolutely determined to make sure

:03:10.:03:12.

we suck them out. With respect to her local hospital reconfiguration,

:03:13.:03:16.

if it ends up on my desk because preferred that by the local health

:03:17.:03:21.

scrutiny committee and I then referred to the Independent

:03:22.:03:25.

reconfiguration panel, I will then look at the matter very carefully.

:03:26.:03:31.

-- sort it out. Mr Speaker, I would like to welcome the Secretary of

:03:32.:03:36.

State statement today and the focus on mental health. In particular, the

:03:37.:03:42.

mention of the suicide prevention strategy and the 1 billion funding

:03:43.:03:46.

commitment to improving services. Mental health is something that

:03:47.:03:48.

often doesn't just affect the patient but the families and those

:03:49.:03:53.

closest and dearest to them who care for them. Does he agree that raising

:03:54.:03:58.

awareness and tackling the ongoing stigma of mental health is a vital

:03:59.:04:04.

part of our work on mental health? Yes. She is absolutely right to

:04:05.:04:09.

mention that. I would say this is an area we can approach with some

:04:10.:04:12.

optimism as to the potential for change. If she looks at the progress

:04:13.:04:17.

we've made in the last four years on dementia, there is a day that goes

:04:18.:04:20.

past without something being in the newspapers about dementia and the

:04:21.:04:24.

understanding of dementia has changed dramatically. I think we can

:04:25.:04:28.

change attitudes and we absolutely need to do that. The only way you

:04:29.:04:32.

can get help to people any mental health crisis is if they talk about

:04:33.:04:35.

to change. I entirely agree with the to change. I entirely agree with the

:04:36.:04:43.

comments being made about the pressures on GP services, the

:04:44.:04:47.

pressures on preventative health and social care, but I want to ask about

:04:48.:04:51.

mental health services for students. In the first few weeks of time this

:04:52.:04:56.

year at Bristol University, there were three suspected suicides and I

:04:57.:05:01.

know from speaking to a doctor who runs the student health services bet

:05:02.:05:04.

presented with the mental health presented with the mental health

:05:05.:05:08.

issues has grown a lot over recent years. What can be Secretary of

:05:09.:05:12.

State tell us to reassure us that students leaving home for the first

:05:13.:05:15.

time and going to university that there are going to be in safe hands?

:05:16.:05:21.

I had a very interesting afternoon visiting the suicide prevention unit

:05:22.:05:25.

at Bristol Royal Infirmary and had a very good discussion about what they

:05:26.:05:29.

do. They do some pioneering things there. I learned a great deal from

:05:30.:05:36.

it. We have a particular concern about the growth in mental

:05:37.:05:42.

ill-health amongst women aged 18 to 24, it has shown is that the good

:05:43.:05:46.

growth. We are very concerned about today, the Prime Minister announced,

:05:47.:05:50.

but we have updated the suicide prevention strategy to make sure

:05:51.:05:53.

that all part of the country can learn from best practice, including

:05:54.:06:01.

places like best. Garryowen thank you Mr Speaker. I welcome to date's

:06:02.:06:08.

an expert on mental health. The key challenge often is to identify those

:06:09.:06:14.

who need help and support. Will the Secretary of State agreed to meet

:06:15.:06:16.

with the Department for Work and Pensions to look at ways that we can

:06:17.:06:20.

help signpost those identified through the independent payment is

:06:21.:06:23.

processed to signpost them to the additional support of help

:06:24.:06:24.

available? Can I reassure my honourable friend

:06:25.:06:31.

that those meetings are already happening? We have a paper in. We

:06:32.:06:38.

are trying to speed up access to mental health services for people on

:06:39.:06:41.

benefit to the canal to be more independent every address their

:06:42.:06:47.

mental health issue more quickly. Thank you. I'd just like to pick up

:06:48.:06:51.

on a point that the Secretary of State made about the right sort of

:06:52.:06:58.

pension arriving at a and E. -- A An elderly constituent of mine, Pat,

:06:59.:07:01.

had pneumonia like symptoms but didn't want to get and a dumb act to

:07:02.:07:09.

A to put pressure on, said she rang up the helpline and was told

:07:10.:07:12.

there was 100 people in front of her. She went to A because she

:07:13.:07:17.

thought she was going to die and she waited 24 hours for a bed. This is

:07:18.:07:21.

unacceptable, as you know. With the Secretary of State agree that the

:07:22.:07:25.

that there is urgent and immediate demand for out of hours doctors. If

:07:26.:07:32.

so, what will you do about it? She is right. People like her

:07:33.:07:37.

constituent, we need to have better alternatives to A and sometimes

:07:38.:07:40.

they don't exist, but one of the things they need to do is to make

:07:41.:07:45.

sure that people call 111 who need to speak to a clinician can do so

:07:46.:07:51.

quickly. One of the things they are piloted very successfully in other

:07:52.:07:54.

parts of the country is better than supervision of people in care homes,

:07:55.:07:57.

who are sometimes the most vulnerable patients. This is one of

:07:58.:08:03.

the things you're looking at, but also direction of travel. We need to

:08:04.:08:06.

find better ways fall for her constituent and people like them.

:08:07.:08:13.

Thank you. In sparsely populated rural Lincolnshire, vital reforms to

:08:14.:08:17.

health and social care risk of being undermined by the performance of the

:08:18.:08:21.

Midlands Ambulance Service. We have a Police and Crime Commissioner who

:08:22.:08:26.

said his officers are routinely effectively acting as ambulance

:08:27.:08:29.

drivers. I narrowly understand the problems we face in rural

:08:30.:08:35.

Lincolnshire but can you agree with me that, as it is currently

:08:36.:08:37.

constituted, East Midlands Ambulance Service is not selling the rural of

:08:38.:08:42.

an area as well as its staff was due and as well as my constituents need

:08:43.:08:49.

to? -- wanted to. As discussed earlier, when the honourable

:08:50.:08:54.

gentleman from Gainsborough spoke, I think there are areas where the

:08:55.:08:58.

service that the Ambulance Service providers to rural areas is not as

:08:59.:09:02.

good as it could be because of reverse incentives around the way

:09:03.:09:05.

the target work. I have been nervous about changing the targets because I

:09:06.:09:11.

think then that can sometimes be taken as a signal to relax, when I'm

:09:12.:09:16.

absolutely determined that we should meet the current targets but I did

:09:17.:09:19.

make a commitment to you honourable gentleman of Gainsborough that I

:09:20.:09:22.

will look into this is and I will do so. Thank you. Alas yeah, in

:09:23.:09:31.

Sheffield, just 67% of category one red ambulance calls were answered

:09:32.:09:34.

within eight minutes. At each, I met a constituent whose husband died

:09:35.:09:39.

while he waited two hours for an ambulance. -- two hours and 40

:09:40.:09:45.

minutes. How can you stand on the dispatch box and say the

:09:46.:09:48.

underfunding of our NHS is not linked with these irresponsible

:09:49.:09:56.

response times? Of course, what happened in vegetation is totally

:09:57.:10:01.

unacceptable, but -- in that situation. It is a mistake to bring

:10:02.:10:08.

this back to finding, it is by pressures, models of care. In the

:10:09.:10:12.

case of the Ambulance Services, just to reassure her that the extra

:10:13.:10:18.

funding that has gone in, we have around 200 more ambulances, around

:10:19.:10:20.

200 more paramedics and the annual and services are doing every day at

:10:21.:10:26.

around 3400 blue light called more than it was doing six years ago.

:10:27.:10:31.

There has been a significant investment but more has to happen.

:10:32.:10:42.

-- calls. Thank you. The number of mental health patients in police

:10:43.:10:46.

cells is rightfully down by 80%. People have bravely come to my

:10:47.:10:50.

surgery, in my constituency, talking about issues where they have found

:10:51.:10:54.

themselves with their families, struggling with provisions for

:10:55.:10:59.

mental health in between 18-24 years old and I pay tribute to Mind and

:11:00.:11:10.

Southern health for the issues they have helped. One thing is the tier

:11:11.:11:16.

system of not being sick and off shore where they are going. Kenny

:11:17.:11:21.

Secretary of State please tell me he will focus on special dumb

:11:22.:11:25.

specialism in this area because it is about finding the people to help

:11:26.:11:34.

people in need. -- specialism. She is right on by the Council on

:11:35.:11:37.

everything they need to do is look carefully at where the tier system

:11:38.:11:41.

is not working as part of our work for the Green paper that the Prime

:11:42.:11:45.

Minister and this morning because it is not acceptable for people to be

:11:46.:11:48.

done and they are not second half to get the care that they urgently

:11:49.:11:56.

need. -- not sick enough. All the we have announced an intention to

:11:57.:12:01.

announce well fail if we don't get the recruitment and training of new

:12:02.:12:05.

staff correct. With the commitment we are making Jadeja invest more in

:12:06.:12:09.

mental health, there also has to come more strategic planning. --

:12:10.:12:22.

making to invest more. On a temporary basis, money is being

:12:23.:12:26.

given to distressed trusts but isn't there a more fundamental ticking

:12:27.:12:29.

time bomb, which is the sustainability and translation plans

:12:30.:12:35.

-- transformation plans, and can I draw him to something I said in

:12:36.:12:41.

December about the north east London plan, which envisions a deficit of

:12:42.:12:47.

?578 million by 2021 and which says that, on a normal business as usual

:12:48.:12:53.

case of normal type productions and savings, there will still be a ?240

:12:54.:12:59.

million gap. That means poorer services. There is no capital

:13:00.:13:02.

provision for the closure of the King George Hospital A and its

:13:03.:13:07.

repositioning at Queens Hospital. Can you would urgently because there

:13:08.:13:12.

is going to be a massive crisis in my area unless urgent steps are

:13:13.:13:18.

taken to get more resources? Well, I am happy to do that issue and, can I

:13:19.:13:23.

take this opportunity to pay tribute to the staff of both Queens and King

:13:24.:13:29.

George? Who have not only done very well over winter, but have also made

:13:30.:13:35.

progress, great progress in terms of joining that around from special

:13:36.:13:39.

measures. We are hopeful that it might come out of special measures

:13:40.:13:44.

now at some stage during this year, but that they decision for the QC.

:13:45.:13:53.

-- CQC. Kettering General Hospital which serves my constituency has a

:13:54.:13:58.

big problem with delayed discharge. Whatever the issue is about money,

:13:59.:14:03.

perhaps the problem with social care is the model. Would it not be a good

:14:04.:14:08.

idea, Secretary of State, if there was genuine commitment from the

:14:09.:14:11.

other side of the house to try and work together to find the social

:14:12.:14:16.

care system for the future? -- a social care system. I think he is a

:14:17.:14:23.

right to say that we need to have these discussions in a less

:14:24.:14:27.

politically charged away because we need to find a solution that will

:14:28.:14:33.

survive changes environment and will be fit for the long-term. What I

:14:34.:14:40.

would also say to him is that I think we missed a trick when they

:14:41.:14:43.

say this is primarily about finding, the cause we have huge variation in

:14:44.:14:48.

provision. There are many local authorities where there are no delay

:14:49.:14:51.

discharges of care, as discussed earlier. What doesn't happen enough

:14:52.:14:56.

in the NHS and social care system is people living from best practice in

:14:57.:15:00.

other parts of the country and that is what we need to change. The

:15:01.:15:05.

Secretary of State has spoken a lot and today about unnecessary

:15:06.:15:10.

admissions to A Can you tell on Deeside, as a result of chronic

:15:11.:15:14.

malnutrition, have travelled under the Conservative governments and

:15:15.:15:21.

whether that approach will change to tackling poverty in this country. --

:15:22.:15:25.

Teesside. What I would say to her is the way you deal with those terrible

:15:26.:15:30.

problems is by having a stronger economy that allows asked to support

:15:31.:15:33.

people through difficult period in their life and what we have is one

:15:34.:15:37.

of the strongest economies, and I think this year it'll be the

:15:38.:15:41.

strongest economy in the G7 which allows us to do things like invest

:15:42.:15:45.

in our health and social care system and it is this party that can

:15:46.:15:51.

deliver that. Thank you. I've spoken to before about the staggering rise

:15:52.:15:58.

of patients at A in Addenbrooke's in Cambridge and the Hospital can

:15:59.:16:01.

bring to me this morning that they see 300 people a day. High levels of

:16:02.:16:05.

the late answers of care. The impact of this was brought to me by a

:16:06.:16:09.

constituent who told me that on Thursday last week, the facilities

:16:10.:16:13.

are so overcrowded that an adjacent seminar room was pressed into use

:16:14.:16:18.

weblogs were taken and where she was treated behind a makeshift curtain

:16:19.:16:22.

reclining on a standard chair. All conditions to be treated in of all

:16:23.:16:26.

conditions of which to work. The Secretary of State may say it's not

:16:27.:16:31.

about funding, if it is not, wealthy country Cambridge, sit down with his

:16:32.:16:34.

Conservative colleagues on the county council and tell them where

:16:35.:16:39.

they are going wrong? First of all, I went to Addenbrooke's in the

:16:40.:16:42.

autumn and I saw first-hand just how hard the gap are working there.

:16:43.:16:46.

That's another trust that is on special measures that has made huge

:16:47.:16:49.

progress in trying to turn things around. I met a number any emergency

:16:50.:16:54.

department as well and I beg of you any emergency department as well and

:16:55.:16:57.

I couldn't do them for their very hard work. I've never said it's not

:16:58.:17:00.

about funding. What I say is that it's not just about funding. There

:17:01.:17:05.

is huge variation and what we see is part of the country where they

:17:06.:17:08.

avoid, in their and agency departments, precisely the type of

:17:09.:17:11.

overcrowding he spoke about Addenbrooke's. Hospitals that do so

:17:12.:17:19.

very successfully, like Luton and Dunstable, for example. We need

:17:20.:17:21.

hospitals to adopt the best practice. Thank you. Can I welcome

:17:22.:17:29.

the public vocation of the new suicide prevention strategy and that

:17:30.:17:35.

self harm is included in it. Thank you for the work on suicide

:17:36.:17:43.

prevention, which I chair. Can I as the Secretary of State to meet with

:17:44.:17:47.

Robert Colgate? Robert Colgate has set out a triage in mental health

:17:48.:17:54.

systems. That means people don't have too wait 6-9 months to see a

:17:55.:17:57.

consultant. With the support of front line staffing, they get an

:17:58.:18:01.

immediate triage assessment and assistance to help. Can I urgently

:18:02.:18:08.

asking to meet with Doctor Colgate? His work is being peer-reviewed by

:18:09.:18:12.

Manchester University, and have a look at how this can also... It is

:18:13.:18:17.

being rolled out across England, but Cialis can help us tackle the

:18:18.:18:20.

problems we have. I thank her for her work on the suicide prevention

:18:21.:18:26.

agency but I am more than happy to meet Doctor Colgate and the purpose

:18:27.:18:30.

of the refreshed suicide prevention strategy is to make sure that we

:18:31.:18:34.

adopt best practice throughout the country. There are some areas of the

:18:35.:18:38.

country doing a very, very good job in suicide prevention. Particularly

:18:39.:18:44.

in telling the public they can make a difference to this, too. I am more

:18:45.:18:47.

than happy to explore what more can be done. Thank you. The Secretary of

:18:48.:18:57.

State rightly pays tribute to NHS staff, but the reality is that many

:18:58.:19:01.

of our NHS workers are now at breaking point. They only continue

:19:02.:19:04.

to perform their work with care and compassion in the light of, rather

:19:05.:19:08.

than because of, any action taken by the Health Secretary. It is now time

:19:09.:19:15.

for the secretary of state to act. What can literally get to invest

:19:16.:19:17.

properly in our NHS staff and reverse the process of geese

:19:18.:19:23.

killing, demoralisation and downgrading of our NHS staff, which

:19:24.:19:28.

he has provided over since 2010. -- de-skilling. With respect to the

:19:29.:19:35.

honourable lady, who lie no cares passionately about the NHS, and

:19:36.:19:41.

often asks the question about it. We have now 11,400 more doctors in the

:19:42.:19:47.

NHS than 2010 and 11,200 more nurses. We protected the NHS budget

:19:48.:19:51.

in 2010 when her party wanted to cut it. We promised ?5.5 billion more

:19:52.:19:58.

than her party web adverts to promise for the NHS at the last

:19:59.:20:04.

election. I think the characterisation she gives this

:20:05.:20:06.

Government as not being prepared to back NHS staff is absurd. -- were

:20:07.:20:14.

prepared to promise. Thank you. The primer Minister's focus on mental

:20:15.:20:22.

health today is very welcome, but does he accept that we will only

:20:23.:20:25.

achieve power of esteem when they except how far we are from at

:20:26.:20:30.

present? This is not a recent problem. The lack of recognition for

:20:31.:20:32.

mental health date back to the inception of the National Health

:20:33.:20:37.

Service as it is driven by our culture and choices as a country,

:20:38.:20:40.

rather than any particular Government. Darcy except that, even

:20:41.:20:47.

the measures laid out today, which each of themselves are welcome, will

:20:48.:20:52.

only really provide a fitting that the onto the problem and that, as it

:20:53.:20:59.

stands, we will be looking at progress of waging in decades before

:21:00.:21:04.

we achieve clarity of mental health conditions? Plaster. I thank him for

:21:05.:21:11.

his interest in the issue and there is a challenge because, when we

:21:12.:21:15.

legislate for clarity of cross-party support in 2012, there is a danger

:21:16.:21:20.

that a concept like that can be nebulous and that is why we asked

:21:21.:21:29.

Paul Farmer, who is the chief executive of Mind, to independently

:21:30.:21:33.

look at what they fear, reasonable progress by 2020 and he came back

:21:34.:21:37.

and he said he thought it would be a ten year process to get there. But

:21:38.:21:42.

this was the right ambition for 2020, and it was his report that the

:21:43.:21:45.

prime ministers except that this morning. We are making progress

:21:46.:21:49.

against benchmarks that independent people have looked at, but it is

:21:50.:21:52.

right to say that we will not get there by 2020 one and he must make

:21:53.:21:55.

sure they do deliver on that commitment wildly as I are both MPs.

:21:56.:22:02.

Very seriously mentally ill people rely on support from a range of

:22:03.:22:09.

services, mental health services but also housing, social services,

:22:10.:22:14.

sometimes the criminal justice system and family support services.

:22:15.:22:18.

Can I ask the Secretary of State what is being done to ensure a whole

:22:19.:22:23.

Government strategy to raise the standard of care, particularly for a

:22:24.:22:27.

very severely ill people who need protection from harm both to

:22:28.:22:31.

themselves and sometimes sadly to others in society? She is right. I

:22:32.:22:37.

will give her one example which is particularly true and that is an

:22:38.:22:41.

addiction services. Highly vulnerable people we are trying to

:22:42.:22:46.

help get off a drugs habit, also have a housing problem a debt

:22:47.:22:50.

problem, they may have a work problems. As you solve those

:22:51.:22:54.

problems holistically you are unlikely to be able to address the

:22:55.:22:57.

health problem that sits at the heart of those challenges. That is,

:22:58.:23:05.

trying to address, more joined up trying to address, more joined up

:23:06.:23:08.

integrated services but I am happy to have further discussions with her

:23:09.:23:15.

as to how we can make more progress. The Secretary of State in his

:23:16.:23:18.

statement has promised a Green paper on children and young people's

:23:19.:23:22.

year. That could be 11 and a half year. That could be 11 and a half

:23:23.:23:28.

months away. One in four people have a mental health disorder and the

:23:29.:23:33.

Government's own research says young people are disproportionately

:23:34.:23:35.

affected. We have heard stories including in my constituency of

:23:36.:23:38.

young people waiting over a year for support, including those victims of

:23:39.:23:42.

domestic violence, schools and parents are picking up the pieces.

:23:43.:23:47.

Young people deserve better. Well he clarify the reasons for what appears

:23:48.:23:50.

to be quite a long delay? Will he commit to bringing forward the Green

:23:51.:23:55.

paper earlier so that action can be taken more quickly and that this

:23:56.:23:59.

pressing issue is not kicked into long grass? Can I reassure her that

:24:00.:24:04.

we wouldn't be taking the issue into the long grass if we have a Prime

:24:05.:24:08.

Minister making a statement that we are going to have a green paper.

:24:09.:24:12.

There is a specific reason why we need a bit of time, which is because

:24:13.:24:15.

we want to make sure the changes that we make... We are getting a

:24:16.:24:20.

little bit of chuntering on the front bench. Don't they want to

:24:21.:24:24.

listen to the answer? The reason why we need to take some time is because

:24:25.:24:28.

we have a number of pilots happening in schools at the moment concerning

:24:29.:24:33.

improving mental health provision for people at the schools and we

:24:34.:24:36.

want to see those pilots through and evaluate them and allowed that to

:24:37.:24:39.

inform what we do in the Green inform what we do in the Green

:24:40.:24:43.

paper. That will take a little bit of time. What we will get at the end

:24:44.:24:47.

of it is the best evidence as to the right way forward. Mr Speaker, young

:24:48.:24:55.

people in Sheffield have for some time now been telling me that the

:24:56.:25:01.

awaiting 25 weeks for an appointment after a referral. Headteachers are

:25:02.:25:09.

telling me the aye digging into their badges to buy in support for

:25:10.:25:15.

pupils in crisis because they cannot access NHS services. Isn't it deeply

:25:16.:25:21.

-- deeply cynical for the Prime Minister be raising hopes of

:25:22.:25:25.

tackling the mental health crisis for our young people when the

:25:26.:25:28.

measures he has announced fall desperately short and the money

:25:29.:25:34.

falls short of what we need? It would be cynical if you raised hopes

:25:35.:25:38.

and had no intention of doing anything about it. But what she has

:25:39.:25:42.

said this morning in his speech was that this is the start of a process.

:25:43.:25:44.

She pointed to those problems and She pointed to those problems and

:25:45.:25:48.

she said we're going to have a green paper to look at how we deal with

:25:49.:25:52.

those problems in detail. That does take some time. We will get to

:25:53.:25:56.

position I hope one we can with those problems. In Sheffield, he is

:25:57.:26:02.

lucky to have that Professor working in Sheffield who is the NHS lead

:26:03.:26:07.

mental health psychiatrist and a specialist in homelessness and he

:26:08.:26:09.

was very much helping us to shape the strategy. I am grateful to the

:26:10.:26:14.

Secretary of State and colleagues across the House. Have you been

:26:15.:26:25.

informed of any intentions Secretary of State of Northern Ireland to make

:26:26.:26:28.

a statement to the for the wreckage -- resignation of the Deputy Prime

:26:29.:26:35.

Minister? The short and to the honourable gentleman is that I have

:26:36.:26:42.

not received any indication -- answer of an impending statement by

:26:43.:26:45.

the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on the matter to which the

:26:46.:26:51.

honourable gentleman refers. I appreciate it will of course be of

:26:52.:26:56.

great interest to many members of the house and the fairest thing I

:26:57.:27:00.

can say is that we must await the development of events. I am

:27:01.:27:07.

conscious that there is a Wes Minster whole debate tomorrow

:27:08.:27:13.

afternoon -- Westminster. The possibility of an oral statement by

:27:14.:27:22.

the Government must clearly exist. And on the same matter, I think,...

:27:23.:27:32.

My right honourable friend, over the last of weeks in Northern Ireland,

:27:33.:27:36.

we have witnessed continuing political instability that was

:27:37.:27:42.

immense proportions in relation to immense proportions in relation to

:27:43.:27:45.

the renewable heat initiative and the renewable heat initiative and

:27:46.:27:49.

the continuing failure of the First Minister to step aside while such an

:27:50.:27:54.

investigation which my party had called for took place. As a

:27:55.:27:59.

consequence, we see the Deputy First Minister resigned today, which means

:28:00.:28:04.

the house of cards falls. As a consequence of that, Mr Speaker,

:28:05.:28:08.

what other avenues are available to honourable members in this House to

:28:09.:28:14.

discuss this particular political instability and this difficulty,

:28:15.:28:20.

further assembly elections or new further assembly elections or new

:28:21.:28:24.

extremely sensitive situation and I extremely sensitive situation and I

:28:25.:28:29.

don't want to see anything. That adds to that sensitivity. The

:28:30.:28:32.

honourable lady enquired as to what honourable lady enquired as to what

:28:33.:28:37.

other avenues are open to ensure a discussion of this matter. In the

:28:38.:28:41.

using the word other, I assume she is referring to other avenues beyond

:28:42.:28:46.

the possibility of a Government statement, which of course it would

:28:47.:28:50.

be for the Government to decide whether to make. The honourable lady

:28:51.:28:54.

is well familiar with the mechanisms available for scrutiny of the

:28:55.:28:56.

the fairest thing I can say is that the fairest thing I can say is that

:28:57.:29:04.

I would be extremely surprised if this matter were not fully aired in

:29:05.:29:12.

the next few days in this chamber. As a speaker, I would want to

:29:13.:29:17.

facilitate the House if that is what is desired. My sense is that it will

:29:18.:29:23.

be. Desired. And that it will happen. On a separate matter, a

:29:24.:29:29.

point of order. Mr Speaker, many will be alarmed by the recent

:29:30.:29:35.

reports of attempts by foreign Government to take down members of

:29:36.:29:40.

this House, including a senior minister. Given the very serious

:29:41.:29:44.

implications of this, what measures will you take to investigate this,

:29:45.:29:49.

not least as one party to the discussions, according to the press

:29:50.:29:54.

conference, was or is at least partially a paid employee of this

:29:55.:30:00.

House? The honourable gentleman, I thank you for your point of order

:30:01.:30:05.

and indeed for notice of it. At this stage, in direct response to the

:30:06.:30:09.

enquiry by the Right honourable gentleman, I am not aware of

:30:10.:30:13.

anything which has happened is that is a matter for the chair. If it

:30:14.:30:18.

transpires that something has happened which is a matter for the

:30:19.:30:22.

chair, I will of course consider what action to take. The matter

:30:23.:30:30.

concerned is of course serious. I do not dispute that for one moment. It

:30:31.:30:34.

is, however, important to be accurate in the use of terms and

:30:35.:30:41.

language. To the best of my knowledge and belief, and I don't

:30:42.:30:46.

doubt the good intentions of the right honourable gentleman, the

:30:47.:30:50.

individual to whom he has indirectly referred has not been an employee of

:30:51.:30:55.

this hack House. The individual concerned was an employee of a

:30:56.:31:01.

number of institutions and people. My understanding is that she has

:31:02.:31:09.

resigned from one, I think, full-time post and from another

:31:10.:31:13.

part-time post. The part-time post which has caused her to work

:31:14.:31:18.

administratively with a member of the House, that part-time post has

:31:19.:31:23.

ended and the path that was available to the individual is being

:31:24.:31:32.

returned. I think that's a pretty full answer to the right honourable

:31:33.:31:35.

gentleman, which is intended to be, and I hope it is helpful. I don't

:31:36.:31:39.

think it will be helpful further to dwell upon the matter now. If there

:31:40.:31:47.

thank the right honourable gentleman thank the right honourable gentleman

:31:48.:31:50.

for raising the matter which is oppositely of concern to him, I

:31:51.:31:56.

don't want to invite trouble. The right honourable gentleman is a very

:31:57.:31:59.

senior member of the House and I knew he wouldn't take liberties. He

:32:00.:32:05.

is looking in a state of great perturbation. If he wants to be the

:32:06.:32:09.

point of order, I would stop him. He doesn't. What a remarkable display

:32:10.:32:13.

of self restraint by the right honourable gentleman. It might catch

:32:14.:32:17.

on, you never know. I think colleagues would probably say to me,

:32:18.:32:21.

good luck with that one. If there are no further points of order, we

:32:22.:32:27.

come late to the main business. We can now proceed to be the orders of

:32:28.:32:32.

the day. Technical and Further Education Bill, as amended in the

:32:33.:32:34.

public bill committee to be considered. Thank you. We begin with

:32:35.:32:42.

new clause one Wes Witcher will be convenient to consider the other new

:32:43.:32:48.

clauses on the paper. To move, I call the Shadow minister responsible

:32:49.:32:55.

for these important matters. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker and

:32:56.:33:02.

can I on behalf of everybody in the chamber wish you and all your

:33:03.:33:07.

officials and the Deputy speakers and the person taking your place as

:33:08.:33:12.

I speak a very happy New Year and the same to members of this House.

:33:13.:33:16.

The issue before us this evening which we will be pursuing is whether

:33:17.:33:25.

it will be a happy New Year for apprentices and for the new

:33:26.:33:28.

Institute for apprenticeship and technical education. Madam Deputy

:33:29.:33:35.

Speaker, the Government will no we have been broadly supportive,

:33:36.:33:41.

broadly supportive of the process that they are bringing forward,

:33:42.:33:46.

albeit it was somewhat forced upon them when their original mechanism,

:33:47.:33:50.

which was to get many of these things through the academy 's bill,

:33:51.:33:54.

hit a shipwreck because the Academy 's bill marked -- was not too

:33:55.:34:04.

popular with. We got fairly rapid notice. That said, we had a good

:34:05.:34:12.

committee stage and I want to pay tribute to the Minister for his

:34:13.:34:18.

reconstructive way in which he reconstructive way in which he

:34:19.:34:21.

responded to rest in committing. There is an old saying that fine

:34:22.:34:27.

words but no parsnips but I hooked words but no parsnips but I hooked

:34:28.:34:32.

by the end of the season -- this evening, I hope we have a view

:34:33.:34:36.

parsnips. A film you'll possibly for those of the vegetarian instinct.

:34:37.:34:46.

During the committee stage he and others moved in number of amendments

:34:47.:34:51.

which don't appear to have been taken on by the Government. We had

:34:52.:34:54.

hoped the Government would bring forward some of those amendments in

:34:55.:35:02.

their own form. I'm always slightly disappointed when intimations of

:35:03.:35:11.

progress at committee stage I not then met with specifics. The

:35:12.:35:15.

Government has the opportunity this evening on commenting on our

:35:16.:35:22.

amendments to do something about it. Indeed, to accept in principle some

:35:23.:35:26.

of our amendments. If they think they are defective but the basic

:35:27.:35:29.

principle of them is fine then they should take them on board. I want to

:35:30.:35:35.

move may to this amendment we have move may to this amendment we have

:35:36.:35:40.

put down and to start actually with one amendment with one new clause,

:35:41.:35:47.

new clause one, which we moved at committee stage and which I think

:35:48.:35:53.

remains valid. That is that this House should actually have an annual

:35:54.:35:59.

report on the quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships. We've had

:36:00.:36:01.

many discussions and argument in this place about the issue of

:36:02.:36:09.

apprenticeships. Much emphasis has been put on apprenticeship starts

:36:10.:36:12.

but far less emphasis, I don't make a party political point here,

:36:13.:36:15.

generally speaking, far emphasis on generally speaking, far emphasis on

:36:16.:36:21.

the process of completion. Those familiar with the famous saying it

:36:22.:36:25.

is not the beginning of a thing with the continuing of it until it is

:36:26.:36:30.

fully finished which holds the full glory will know therefore why we

:36:31.:36:34.

think it is really important to pit and this is not simply an input, not

:36:35.:36:41.

even an outfit but also an outcome. In broad terms, we have supported

:36:42.:36:46.

the major expansion of apprenticeship starts although the

:36:47.:36:48.

Government remains responsible for the target of 3 million starts by

:36:49.:36:54.

2020 whipped on previous occasions have come about by a rather curious

:36:55.:36:58.

set of circumstances. The Minister has rightly said previously that

:36:59.:37:02.

bridging the growing skills gap. The bridging the growing skills gap. The

:37:03.:37:06.

potential expansion might feel some of the courts needed to fill the

:37:07.:37:11.

gaps. This new clause is timely, given the sort of things, an

:37:12.:37:16.

exhaustive list, we believe would demonstrate those outcomes. Despite

:37:17.:37:19.

some progress in recent years, the some progress in recent years, the

:37:20.:37:24.

situation of young people not in employment, education and training

:37:25.:37:27.

remains fragile. The most recent official figures do show an increase

:37:28.:37:33.

in the low of 16 to 24-year-olds classified as economically inactive.

:37:34.:37:42.

As I have said grievously, they continue to the sector skills

:37:43.:37:47.

people, universities, have questioned marks about the quality

:37:48.:37:52.

of what those 3 million a year apprenticeships will be. Young

:37:53.:37:53.

people are concerned about them and people are concerned about them and

:37:54.:37:54.

concerned they should be of quality. The level of satisfaction has been

:37:55.:38:05.

high and showed no change from previous years but it is extremely

:38:06.:38:08.

important that we monitor satisfaction rates. In that process,

:38:09.:38:12.

we have to be watchful of the fragility of apprenticeships and

:38:13.:38:18.

those have fallen. -- apprenticeship success rates. They have fallen to

:38:19.:38:27.

71.7% in 2015. It is important to look at the evaluation budget in

:38:28.:38:31.

2015 in this area. It is a modest fall in the proportion of how

:38:32.:38:37.

apprenticeships make up formal training to 79%. But it is a warning

:38:38.:38:41.

sign for the Government and that is why we believe that, now we've got

:38:42.:38:47.

those new standards for technical education, it is vital to track the

:38:48.:38:53.

outcomes for each group. Last year's apprenticeship evaluation showed a

:38:54.:38:58.

slight increase in the proportion of people completing apprenticeships

:38:59.:39:00.

but we need to also add particular areas where there have been higher

:39:01.:39:04.

levels of unemployment among completed apprenticeships. That

:39:05.:39:11.

includes eye CG, it includes arts and media, which had 11%

:39:12.:39:18.

unemployment. -- ICT. Those have to be looked at as the be getting

:39:19.:39:20.

positive response from the Government. I moved onto new clause

:39:21.:39:27.

two. This amendment has two separate issues. The first is to build on the

:39:28.:39:31.

Minister's ashore during the committee stage. That apprenticeship

:39:32.:39:38.

panel would be set up to reports directly to the board and to ensure

:39:39.:39:42.

that a similarity and takes place when the Institute absolves

:39:43.:39:52.

technical education into its remit in 2018. -- absorbs. I had to say

:39:53.:39:55.

how happy I've been following the belatedly to the conservation

:39:56.:40:00.

document for guidance, which we were originally promised in the evidence

:40:01.:40:07.

session by the Delano, the shadow chief executive, would there before

:40:08.:40:15.

Christmas. -- Peter Lautner. The minister like to tell us at some

:40:16.:40:18.

point why they didn't emerge before Christmas. He did say, and I thank

:40:19.:40:24.

him for this, that I think we can square the circle by agreeing that

:40:25.:40:27.

the institute should draw on the experience of apprenticeships, so

:40:28.:40:29.

I'm pleased to announce we expect the Institute is to invite

:40:30.:40:35.

apprentices to establish an apprentices panel, which would be

:40:36.:40:41.

brought directly to the board. That panel would be made of apprentices

:40:42.:40:44.

from different off-peak evasions and experiences, it would decide for

:40:45.:40:51.

itself. -- occupations. I'm quoting from the Minister what he said from

:40:52.:40:55.

the committee stage, the Institute will ensure the third panel is in

:40:56.:41:00.

place before the Institute goes live in April 20 17. The institute will

:41:01.:41:03.

consider how best to engage with apprenticeships on an ongoing basis

:41:04.:41:07.

and how best to represent technical education should students --

:41:08.:41:17.

students as of 2018. Anyone reading the Hansard that would have gone to

:41:18.:41:21.

the inclusion, as I did, that this was a very welcome the set of

:41:22.:41:25.

concessions from the Minister and strong assurances, we thought, that

:41:26.:41:30.

a panel would be set up before April. However, when we have gone

:41:31.:41:34.

through the finer detail of the belated consultation document, we

:41:35.:41:38.

find a paragraph which uses the words, but perhaps, perhaps there

:41:39.:41:45.

would be the set of an apprenticeship panel which reported

:41:46.:41:48.

directly to the Institute board to ensure that apprentices have the

:41:49.:41:52.

opportunity to have their say about education and training. They can

:41:53.:41:54.

still improve the experience of those thereafter. Apps, Mr Deputy

:41:55.:42:00.

Speaker, you are a student of the English-language, as I'm sure most

:42:01.:42:03.

of the snow, is a lot weaker than the assurance. -- perhaps. As -- as

:42:04.:42:13.

most of us know. The assurance that a panel will be set up before April.

:42:14.:42:19.

The Minister also said during committee, as I said, about the

:42:20.:42:22.

Institute needing to get how best to represent technical education June

:42:23.:42:30.

and of those taking responsibly in 2018. Surely logical step to date is

:42:31.:42:34.

to establish a similar pattern for technical education shouldn't that

:42:35.:42:39.

are not undertaken apprenticeships. -- panel. Hopefully that panel will

:42:40.:42:47.

not be prefaced by the word perhaps. It's important that the experience

:42:48.:42:54.

and feedback help guide the new institute, particularly at the time

:42:55.:42:57.

frame involved and the capacities of the resources of the Institute are

:42:58.:43:04.

so limited. I want to come back to what we have said previously and

:43:05.:43:08.

unity, and I want to make the comparison between what is going on

:43:09.:43:13.

in this Bill, as to what went on in the eight G delve. If whatever

:43:14.:43:22.

structure the DfEE ever says. -- AG Bill forgetting apprentices and

:43:23.:43:26.

technical education dude and is seen to be inferior to not even done in

:43:27.:43:32.

the same way as the University's Minister made concessions on the HE

:43:33.:43:45.

Bill bell, then students in FE might think they are being treated as

:43:46.:43:53.

second citizens. -- HE Bill. I want to seek assurance that this panel

:43:54.:43:56.

will be set up before April and taking on board the war that we have

:43:57.:44:01.

boots tonight, and it is not able to accept it tonight, make sure that it

:44:02.:44:04.

goes on the face of the Bell in another place. I want to move on

:44:05.:44:12.

now, Madam Deputy Seagate, to our new clause four, which would place a

:44:13.:44:21.

statutory requirement to produce a strategy on career education. Now,

:44:22.:44:27.

now one could fall, and I'm certainly not going to, no one could

:44:28.:44:33.

pull the Minister on his enthusiasm verbally to get to grips with this

:44:34.:44:36.

subject. It was one of the best thing that he said when he was

:44:37.:44:40.

appointed and can any regular columns that he is now been having

:44:41.:44:48.

in FE Week, he has continued to elude to this, that we need to

:44:49.:44:51.

actually have a very strong strategy and very rapidly. That is because

:44:52.:44:56.

the rhetoric on career advice spell does not match the wilful reality

:44:57.:45:04.

facing young people. -- still does not. The Minister is here today and

:45:05.:45:09.

I have seen, and they had he has also seen, the very disturbing

:45:10.:45:12.

report from the Princes trust, which is just been released, which shows

:45:13.:45:18.

the self-confidence of young people about their future and at its lowest

:45:19.:45:24.

in eight years. That, and a whole range of issues cited in respect of

:45:25.:45:29.

that, and I'm not going to stray from the amendment but specifically

:45:30.:45:34.

advise and the state of jobs and careers are included in what is said

:45:35.:45:38.

in this report. So, when the Minister said, in his New Year

:45:39.:45:47.

article, for FE Week, that's 2017 is about making sure the gap right

:45:48.:45:51.

guidance is on offer for technical education and location, and

:45:52.:45:54.

apprenticeships, as much as it does University, reject him at his word

:45:55.:46:00.

and the new clause four that we have in place tonight, is to give a

:46:01.:46:04.

structure and a framework to what the Minister is saying. Now, I go

:46:05.:46:09.

back to what I said two members of the governing on the HE Bill when we

:46:10.:46:19.

were gelled that, I can assure you I will take this on board, this, that

:46:20.:46:24.

and the other. -- told. But you know as well as I do that we are

:46:25.:46:29.

legislating not just for one Minister of War one parliament,

:46:30.:46:35.

possibly, but with something like further education -- Minister or for

:46:36.:46:48.

one. But we appreciate you can in this area, but we would like to see

:46:49.:46:52.

the duty to publish the strategy or the face of the bill. There is a

:46:53.:47:00.

how's the providers, as he knows of employers, and employer's

:47:01.:47:02.

organisations who have queued up with his department. -- employers'

:47:03.:47:13.

organisations. To deal them help with the baby Government has dealt

:47:14.:47:18.

with careers in the past. That is when why I said when a state to him

:47:19.:47:23.

in the past, that they needed to promote strong career guidance, and

:47:24.:47:26.

I also referred to the cross-party verdict from the two select

:47:27.:47:31.

committee chairs on this matter. The Minister, I think, felt slightly

:47:32.:47:38.

aggrieved at this, but the truth of the matter is, if we are going to

:47:39.:47:42.

make a success of the Institute, we have to have these sort of thing

:47:43.:47:47.

boot on the face of the deal. There has to be a mechanism -- put. For

:47:48.:47:57.

whatever party and whatever governments over the next period of

:47:58.:48:00.

time for which this bill is advised to work. I well. I thank the

:48:01.:48:06.

honourable member for giving way and I know he feels passionately about

:48:07.:48:10.

this subject, but does he not also agree with the bank that the

:48:11.:48:13.

Government has an overarching approach to careers advice? It could

:48:14.:48:19.

be difficult bridging arrangement into this particular bill that only

:48:20.:48:22.

apply to technical education when there is a much broader issue at

:48:23.:48:26.

stake, which the Government is tackling at a strategic level. I

:48:27.:48:30.

care what the honourable gentleman at least they and it is true, of

:48:31.:48:33.

course, but again, as with the discussion we are having at... Are

:48:34.:48:39.

available to have this evening, career education... At 16, nor at

:48:40.:48:46.

the remit of the DfEE in this particular bill. It start much

:48:47.:48:54.

earlier. -- HE Bill. If that is an ardent for doing nothing with any

:48:55.:48:57.

limited area of this Bill, I don't agree. We have to do something with

:48:58.:49:02.

that and I would like to see erupting structure he is talking

:49:03.:49:04.

about but, unfortunately, I would be quite happy at the moment just to

:49:05.:49:08.

see a limited erupting structure for the area we are discussing this

:49:09.:49:19.

evening. -- overarching. Two. About the ?90 million allocated for career

:49:20.:49:24.

enterprise companies over this, we need to see that how it is

:49:25.:49:30.

distributed and if Accu wrote. -- to talk about. By the Institute. --

:49:31.:49:39.

accurate. There was an very damning statistics. The proportion of

:49:40.:49:42.

respondents that the Minister knows saying their advice was very poor

:49:43.:49:48.

poor has remained high across all of the sexes. -- sectors. It's rather

:49:49.:50:02.

worryingly went on to say that 94 survey respondents were not able to

:50:03.:50:09.

receive any guidance at all. When we discuss this matter in committee,

:50:10.:50:13.

those are the sort of statistics that we have available. And I said,

:50:14.:50:19.

perfectly verbally, I thought, that alone the careers and enterprise

:50:20.:50:24.

company were beginning to make progress. -- fairly. That I didn't

:50:25.:50:28.

agree that, because they are heavily relied on volunteers, that they were

:50:29.:50:33.

yet able to give the coverage and necessary. In December, early, in

:50:34.:50:39.

December, we learned that the US and enterprise company does not cater to

:50:40.:50:42.

every college around the country, including the hell of London. --

:50:43.:50:49.

carriers. -- Hall of London. There are cold areas at the moment. --

:50:50.:50:57.

whole. A lot of areas are not covered and London is completely

:50:58.:51:03.

absent. Claudia Harris of the honourable gentleman confirmed that

:51:04.:51:06.

the company did not like that any of the capital's CEC colleges. She

:51:07.:51:17.

landed the lack of college on ramp-up. Ramp-up is what lesser

:51:18.:51:24.

mortals would call the rolling out of pilots. I await a definition from

:51:25.:51:31.

the Minister on that point. I'm not playing the blame for this at the

:51:32.:51:38.

door for the careers and enterprise company I believe that the

:51:39.:51:43.

Government are expecting them to do too much with too little, and I also

:51:44.:51:49.

agree that, to have a company that is so heavily reliant on volunteers,

:51:50.:51:55.

to carry out these that Basques, is actually probably something that the

:51:56.:51:58.

Government have to think about and would again at. -- tasks. She, as I

:51:59.:52:06.

said, then there would be an expansion of this to all schools

:52:07.:52:09.

over the coming year, and that is fine. But where are the budget

:52:10.:52:15.

implications for this? Is the Minister working on the Chancellor

:52:16.:52:20.

already on a substantial high in the budget for the finding in this area?

:52:21.:52:24.

Because he will certainly need it if he's going to address the issues

:52:25.:52:29.

that we are talking about in this new clause.

:52:30.:52:34.

There was a report in the middle of December which shoot the pure

:52:35.:52:42.

quality of careers advice was limiting young people's choices.

:52:43.:52:47.

Research carried out by the Institute for employment research at

:52:48.:52:50.

the University of Warwick and commissioned by the foundation found

:52:51.:52:57.

that only 1%, only 1%, of students had viewed careers advice at the

:52:58.:53:02.

most important influence to stay on in further education. Over half of

:53:03.:53:06.

them have said they wanted more information from employers. In the

:53:07.:53:13.

New Year, the Minister New Year article, keep it priority on this. I

:53:14.:53:20.

am taking him at his word. If these are indeed be Minister's aim, this

:53:21.:53:27.

amendment, this clause which sets out fairly comprehensively how this

:53:28.:53:32.

process would operate and if there are technical deficiencies in it or

:53:33.:53:37.

practical deficiencies in it or drop Winship, we are welcome to your

:53:38.:53:41.

suggestion, this amendment, new clause, is exactly what he needs to

:53:42.:53:48.

make his rhetoric a reality. There is another saying that if wishes

:53:49.:53:52.

were horses, beggars would ride. Maybe the Minister should get on and

:53:53.:54:00.

accept what we say, otherwise he will remain a beggar come the budget

:54:01.:54:05.

and we'll be looking for a scrap at the Chancellor's table. The other

:54:06.:54:10.

thing, while blue on the subject of careers, one of the other things the

:54:11.:54:15.

Minister used an earlier in the year at the Tory party conference, which

:54:16.:54:22.

again we applaud and leave the previous Education Secretary had

:54:23.:54:25.

made some announcements about it, plans to allow schools to give

:54:26.:54:30.

people vocational academic route when providing careers advice, we

:54:31.:54:35.

are told by the Times educational supplement was told, that's now been

:54:36.:54:40.

put on ice as well. I would welcome some response from the Minister in

:54:41.:54:46.

those areas. If I move on now to some of our other amendments,

:54:47.:54:52.

particularly I want to just speak briefly to amendment format, which

:54:53.:54:58.

is making sure that the Institute must have regard to the need to

:54:59.:55:02.

promote equality of opportunity to pardon dissipate in widening access

:55:03.:55:07.

and participation. The Minister and I agree that this bill at present a

:55:08.:55:12.

real opportunity to reform an neglected vocational pathways and

:55:13.:55:17.

support both 16 institutions. Presently, there are too few

:55:18.:55:20.

students from disadvantaged backgrounds transitioning from level

:55:21.:55:25.

to to higher levels of study. This means thousands of young people are

:55:26.:55:30.

not realising their potential. High-quality technical education and

:55:31.:55:34.

work -based training must act as a vehicle for social mobility and we

:55:35.:55:39.

believe that by giving the Institute this obligation, it will help focus

:55:40.:55:48.

it on changing that staters call. Presently, the Government does not

:55:49.:55:53.

publish data, I stand to be corrected here, my belief that

:55:54.:55:56.

Government does not publish data on the social background of apprentices

:55:57.:55:59.

and that means it is difficult to assess just how many people from

:56:00.:56:04.

disadvantaged backgrounds are starting and completing them.

:56:05.:56:08.

However, we do note that recent research published by the social

:56:09.:56:11.

mobility commission found that nationally young people eligible for

:56:12.:56:16.

free school meals I have is likely to start and complete an

:56:17.:56:19.

apprenticeship as there are better off peers. Just under 50% of

:56:20.:56:28.

students in that capacity team and a or C GCSE in English or maths by 19

:56:29.:56:35.

as opposed to 74% of the better off peers. That means they lack the

:56:36.:56:39.

grades to in rule on the level three pathways. There are also figures

:56:40.:56:49.

that show that only 36% of them achieve a level three qualification

:56:50.:56:54.

and that's compared with 61% of their better off peers. That shows

:56:55.:56:58.

the importance of the transition year which is proposed in the

:56:59.:57:05.

proposed 16 year skill plan. If that doesn't happen are doesn't happen

:57:06.:57:09.

well, we will see a bigger gap, wider access to the new technical

:57:10.:57:16.

routes and that will prevent them from being an effective vehicle for

:57:17.:57:21.

social mobility. Why didn't participation amendment is

:57:22.:57:25.

an increasing focus on widening an increasing focus on widening

:57:26.:57:35.

participation and funding in 27 -- investing 33 million in wider

:57:36.:57:39.

participation. Further education including apprenticeships deserve

:57:40.:57:41.

the same sort of attention and scrutiny and the Institute must be

:57:42.:57:46.

required annually to measure and report on the gap between

:57:47.:57:49.

disadvantaged young people and their disadvantaged young people and their

:57:50.:57:52.

peers accessing and progressing from technical pathways. I wasn't so

:57:53.:57:58.

aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, happy aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, happy

:57:59.:58:02.

New Year to you as well. If I wasn't so aware of the woeful inadequacy of

:58:03.:58:08.

these staffing proposals at the moment by the Institute, I might

:58:09.:58:16.

suggest the Government might take a leaf out of HEA and have an offer

:58:17.:58:23.

for HD students. We are not asking for that tonight. What we are asking

:58:24.:58:26.

for is an appreciation of the fact that there needs to be that

:58:27.:58:36.

particular focus for the Institute. I also want to couple it. We've

:58:37.:58:43.

talked a lot in this chamber in the last year about the timescale for

:58:44.:58:47.

delivering this 3 million target. I also want to talk briefly to

:58:48.:58:52.

amendment five. Amendment five says that the Institute should and must

:58:53.:58:58.

cooperate with the apprenticeship delivery board on a progression into

:58:59.:59:04.

and delivery of apprenticeships. Now, at the terms of reference for

:59:05.:59:11.

that delivery board were originally to have a board cheered by the

:59:12.:59:17.

chairman of the apprenticeship Ambassador network and the Prime

:59:18.:59:21.

Minister's adviser on apprenticeships to provide support

:59:22.:59:23.

across all areas to ensure the Government's ambition of it using 3

:59:24.:59:28.

million programmes by 2020. It talked about the purpose to

:59:29.:59:34.

implement employment engagement strategy, increase the number of

:59:35.:59:38.

apprenticeships, secured new employment and engagement. It

:59:39.:59:43.

sounded great. But when you delves into the delivery of the board, a

:59:44.:59:49.

little further, it's not quite as it seems. First of all, the terms of

:59:50.:59:52.

reference of it being shared by the Prime Minister's advisers on

:59:53.:00:00.

apprenticeship. The Government could share, the honourable member for

:00:01.:00:03.

Stratford-upon-Avon was stood down last autumn and that left only the

:00:04.:00:12.

previous private sector chair of the board as its sole chair. People are

:00:13.:00:17.

going to ask- where is the Government's adviser on

:00:18.:00:20.

apprenticeships now? How about the rest of this committee? When this

:00:21.:00:25.

Minister sang the praises the Minister sang the praises the

:00:26.:00:28.

apprenticeship delivery board but I do have to tell him there were also

:00:29.:00:33.

somewhat underwhelming so far. It was actually made up of members

:00:34.:00:41.

remain narrowly section of business. It only had one woman in its number.

:00:42.:00:46.

There was no rule for others, such as universities, trade unions and

:00:47.:00:51.

local authorities. There has been, to be fair, some progress with the

:00:52.:00:57.

number of women on the ADP and it's now got three. It's important those

:00:58.:00:59.

lessons are taken on board the Institute. When the board was

:01:00.:01:04.

announced, it was advertised as being a key part of the process. It

:01:05.:01:09.

wasn't simply there to be a bully pulpit but what a direct an active

:01:10.:01:12.

role. I question the Minister on that in committee and he responded,

:01:13.:01:18.

I can reassure the honourable gentleman the apprenticeship

:01:19.:01:22.

delivery board is in full flow. I meet with its chairman regularly and

:01:23.:01:25.

goes up and down the country and works with businesses to encourage

:01:26.:01:28.

them to employ apprentices, much of our success has been because of that

:01:29.:01:33.

board's incredible work. Yet, I do have to tell the Minister that when

:01:34.:01:37.

I've looked at the minutes of that board, and we have examined the

:01:38.:01:41.

minutes, I don't quite get the same sense of achievement. Because what

:01:42.:01:45.

the minutes shill over the summer period is a couple of employees from

:01:46.:01:49.

large employers telling each other about random conversations and

:01:50.:01:52.

meetings they have applied they have. With the occasional

:01:53.:01:57.

presentation from the skills funding agency about their marketing plans.

:01:58.:02:02.

There seems to have been very little coordinated action taken over the

:02:03.:02:05.

summer months and it's quite clear to meet the delivery board is not

:02:06.:02:10.

currently fulfilling that role. That is why we have put this amendment

:02:11.:02:15.

down. The Institute for apprenticeships and technical

:02:16.:02:17.

education does not have the resources are capacity to be taking

:02:18.:02:20.

on these responsibilities will stop their focus is supposed to be on

:02:21.:02:24.

developing standards. We know from the shadow chief executive that

:02:25.:02:26.

staffing levels and finance are staffing levels and finance are

:02:27.:02:31.

going to be limited, 60 rising to 100 possible when the technical

:02:32.:02:37.

educational elements kick in. We have a very short space of time

:02:38.:02:42.

between now and April start. I should have mentioned, Madam Deputy

:02:43.:02:48.

Speaker, a princely budget of ?8 million a year on which the

:02:49.:02:52.

Institute is supposed to be initially operating. There has to be

:02:53.:02:57.

more focus on marketing. The delivery board is not just a trade

:02:58.:03:02.

fair as these minutes suggest, it is meant to help develop and increase

:03:03.:03:04.

the number of pensions. It must cooperate with the Institute to

:03:05.:03:09.

succeed. It is vitally important now that the Government has strapped any

:03:10.:03:14.

involvement they had and visibly forgotten about apprenticeships. I

:03:15.:03:20.

want also to tut on another issue which we have moved an amendment on

:03:21.:03:24.

tonight and that is to try and get some clarity and keep its focus on

:03:25.:03:30.

the Government actually delivering money that will be additional or a

:03:31.:03:34.

substitute for additional Government funding. The Government was already

:03:35.:03:42.

spending ?1.5 billion on apprenticeships in 2016 and we are

:03:43.:03:48.

told the levy is expected to raise ?2.9 billion by 2020 of which the

:03:49.:03:54.

latest count, Madam Deputy Speaker, ?2.4 million will be spent in

:03:55.:03:59.

England. So, where does the additional money go? Last year I

:04:00.:04:04.

submitted a written question to the land skills Minister on this. I got

:04:05.:04:12.

a sort of response saying that by 2019 two 2020, we expect to

:04:13.:04:14.

2.5 billion on apprenticeships in 2.5 billion on apprenticeships in

:04:15.:04:18.

England. My maths told me that if ?2.5 billion is raised from the

:04:19.:04:23.

sector, and the Government is beating currently ?1.5 billion, that

:04:24.:04:27.

means an extra billion pounds, which is what the Minister's reply says. I

:04:28.:04:31.

come back to the point which we raised earlier last year- what's

:04:32.:04:37.

going to happen to the remaining 1.5 billion raised? Is it going to be

:04:38.:04:41.

40% for apprenticeships and 60% going straight back to the Treasury?

:04:42.:04:47.

The challenge remains for this Government to convince employers and

:04:48.:04:50.

stakeholders that this remains a stakeholders that this remains a

:04:51.:04:55.

genuinely long-term funding commitment for apprenticeships and

:04:56.:04:58.

not just something that becomes regarded as a Treasury payroll tax.

:04:59.:05:06.

I'm grateful. I apologise for interrupting his magnificent speech.

:05:07.:05:10.

problem of the pension levy is that problem of the pension levy is that

:05:11.:05:13.

the Government is all over the place on it. When I talked to a major

:05:14.:05:16.

supermarket chain, they said they have employees in Scotland, their

:05:17.:05:21.

payroll is be sufficient magnitude, they will have to do the

:05:22.:05:24.

apprenticeship levy but because of devolution, there is no guarantee

:05:25.:05:28.

that supermarket chain's apprenticeship levy funding will in

:05:29.:05:30.

fact in Scotland be used for fact in Scotland be used for

:05:31.:05:32.

apprenticeships. That may be the apprenticeships. That may be the

:05:33.:05:35.

case in Wales and Northern Ireland as well, I know not. That may go

:05:36.:05:40.

some way to explaining the gap that my friend has put his finger on very

:05:41.:05:47.

acutely as to where is the money going? It's because it's a mess

:05:48.:05:50.

between the Treasury who haven't come to grips with devolution yet.

:05:51.:05:54.

My honourable friend makes it very interesting and distinct points.

:05:55.:05:59.

Again, if I wasn't constrained by talking about this particular

:06:00.:06:02.

amendment, we would have some very interesting conversations about how

:06:03.:06:05.

the devolution situation is happening. I need to stick to my

:06:06.:06:13.

point out. The other point I would make, which is central to this

:06:14.:06:17.

amendment, is what I just referred to the Minister in respect of the

:06:18.:06:24.

coming budget. We now know that the budget I think, Madam Deputy

:06:25.:06:27.

Speaker, is to be in the first week of March. Issues as to what the

:06:28.:06:33.

rates and the threshold of the apprenticeship levy might be after

:06:34.:06:37.

its first year of as we going to come to mind. The former Chief

:06:38.:06:41.

Secretary to the Treasury after much prompting and questioning under the

:06:42.:06:44.

previous Administration of David Cameron has said, quote, the

:06:45.:06:48.

Government will keep the pension levy under review and I think all of

:06:49.:06:54.

us know that means it can go up, theoretically it could go down. That

:06:55.:06:58.

apprenticeship levy and the level which it is set and how much

:06:59.:07:04.

companies get back from it will be crucial in deciding whether it's a

:07:05.:07:09.

success or a flop. What conversation has the Minister had with the

:07:10.:07:16.

Treasury? It's only eight weeks away, I dread to tell you, to the

:07:17.:07:20.

budget day. To make sure that they budget day. To make sure that they

:07:21.:07:25.

get the balance right. The more we hear, I said this in me and I shall

:07:26.:07:29.

say it again here today, the more we hear about how the levy will now

:07:30.:07:34.

need to fund the devolved administrations, English and maths

:07:35.:07:39.

at levels two, incentive payments and non-levy payers, the more it

:07:40.:07:42.

seems inevitable that this Government will end up raising the

:07:43.:07:44.

levy. The and all the slightly more

:07:45.:07:57.

technical amendments. -- I want now to deal with. The first is designed

:07:58.:08:06.

to deal with the situation for privately funded and ASBO

:08:07.:08:12.

qualifications is clarified. -- and this bloke. Without clarification,

:08:13.:08:20.

there is a danger that the technical qualifications, we are told, that

:08:21.:08:25.

professional accreditation skills they further solely by employers. --

:08:26.:08:32.

schemes. We do not believe it is the intention of the current to include

:08:33.:08:35.

this but we want clarification. Yes, I will. I am grateful. I happy say,

:08:36.:08:43.

I'm slightly bemused by this amendment. I think I understand it

:08:44.:08:47.

but, when I come to this topic, it seems it would be desirable in

:08:48.:08:53.

England, if not in the United Kingdom, to have a professional

:08:54.:08:56.

framework of standards. Not simply that framework applying to

:08:57.:09:03.

qualifications, which were obtained through a state funded institution.

:09:04.:09:06.

Were expressed more brightly than that, on the face of it, it does

:09:07.:09:11.

seem desirable to me. Perhaps my honourable friend to say more about

:09:12.:09:14.

his approach to this. My honourable friend is quite right to raise that

:09:15.:09:21.

particular issue in terms of the national framework. There has been

:09:22.:09:30.

research reports over many years which indicate that the privately

:09:31.:09:34.

funded trading market has been exceedingly publicly funded one by

:09:35.:09:36.

considerable that includes specialist management training,

:09:37.:09:42.

project and programme management. I do think this is an area where the

:09:43.:09:47.

element perhaps needs to a little more carefully at how this process

:09:48.:09:51.

is going to move, but I absolutely agree with him about the need to

:09:52.:09:55.

have an overarching national framework in which we don't have the

:09:56.:09:59.

moment. Moving on, if I can move amendment eight, which would ensure

:10:00.:10:05.

the mapping of occupation groups, with particular regard for people

:10:06.:10:12.

aged 16 to 24, this is crucial because many apprenticeship training

:10:13.:10:14.

providers are reporting that, under the new levy system, employers are

:10:15.:10:20.

deciding to choose apprentices aged over 19, rather than 16-18 year

:10:21.:10:25.

olds, particularly when it comes to the new standards where, they say,

:10:26.:10:31.

there is very little incentive for employers to take on younger

:10:32.:10:33.

learners, especially in the higher funding bands, where ?1000 bonus is

:10:34.:10:45.

available. As the Minister will know, it has predominantly been

:10:46.:10:49.

delivered up to now, apprenticeships for 16-18 -year-olds are seeing

:10:50.:10:53.

their majority of business switch to older individuals. Now, if you

:10:54.:10:59.

look... If one looks at the Sainsbury's comments, the changes in

:11:00.:11:10.

funding. -- award Sainsbury. Apprentices in the same band have

:11:11.:11:14.

little effort to change that. Maybe that is the current's plan. If it is

:11:15.:11:19.

so, the current have to be honest and tell us. If not, something has

:11:20.:11:24.

to do the changed. Otherwise, we are in danger of ending up with fewer

:11:25.:11:28.

apprenticeship opportunities for 16-18 year olds. I would quote to

:11:29.:11:37.

the Minister the remarks of JTL recently, a training provider, who

:11:38.:11:41.

say that under the new system, and lawyers say they would do and why

:11:42.:11:44.

younger people aged 19 and older when they traditional age

:11:45.:11:51.

differentials are removed. 16 and 17-year-olds, sometimes, are not our

:11:52.:11:55.

on-site due to safety rules and some not having driving licence. It still

:11:56.:12:00.

makes it worthwhile to take them on presently, but removing the new --

:12:01.:12:09.

and letting the new guidelines would make it difficult to do so. It was

:12:10.:12:16.

thoughtfully given the emphasis that the so-called ?1000 incentive for

:12:17.:12:20.

employers to recruit 16-18 year olds simply doesn't work for the Stem

:12:21.:12:30.

sectors. I'm quoting again from JTL that the apprenticeship normally

:12:31.:12:35.

lasts for years, upgrading to ?5 per week, which is of no interest to

:12:36.:12:40.

employers. It is a timely reminder, a timely new rear area reminder to

:12:41.:12:46.

the Minister -- New Year reminder, of these apprenticeship campaigns

:12:47.:12:53.

that some parties are pleased to be involved with, a very broad range of

:12:54.:12:56.

people were met, changes were promised but they haven't solved the

:12:57.:13:01.

problem. They have applied and temporarily sticking plaster to it

:13:02.:13:04.

and how long it will stick remains to be seen. Coming on top of the

:13:05.:13:11.

continued lack of certainty about apprenticeships and the delay

:13:12.:13:15.

consultation, there must be concerned about the fragility of the

:13:16.:13:18.

Government's performance in the 16-18 area. Areas like Blackpool,

:13:19.:13:29.

where we want to see the skilled apprenticeships now. It has also

:13:30.:13:34.

been raised, I'm sure the Minister knows, the issue that a framework of

:13:35.:13:42.

only 15 groups across technical education... Denying many young

:13:43.:13:46.

people workplace roots of level two or three. We remain concerned about

:13:47.:13:48.

that, given that so many young people in the service sector are not

:13:49.:13:54.

like the GB covered by this. -- likely. This has been said -- likely

:13:55.:14:03.

to be covered by this. Whether it is about technical education or

:14:04.:14:06.

apprenticeships, young people in Blackpool and everywhere else needs

:14:07.:14:10.

good training, whether it comes from the service sector on the

:14:11.:14:13.

manufacturing sector. I would have thought that would have been made to

:14:14.:14:19.

group focus on that, that would make a huge contribution to the social

:14:20.:14:23.

justice agenda and even, arguably, to anticipate they impact of Brexit.

:14:24.:14:34.

It is important there is a skill strategy which is inclusive and,

:14:35.:14:39.

this is a perfect opportunity to create a coherent and inclusive

:14:40.:14:41.

strategy that covers a wide range of different abilities, attitude and

:14:42.:14:46.

striving for excellence, and that is what the intention of amendment

:14:47.:14:52.

eight is there to do. I want, briefly, to talk to amendment nine,

:14:53.:14:56.

which talked about all apprenticeship standards, including

:14:57.:15:00.

recognised technical qualification. The Minister well-known that it's

:15:01.:15:04.

not something we have been concerned about, a range of committees and

:15:05.:15:11.

governors recently, again, a LP, have been concerned about this. .

:15:12.:15:18.

Investment in time and measles is leading again to employability and,

:15:19.:15:22.

in some areas, the lack of engagement. According to just 30% of

:15:23.:15:30.

the current standard release, still don't have a mandatory column,

:15:31.:15:36.

convocation included. -- qualification included. This would

:15:37.:15:42.

be to make the whole apprenticeship a recognised qualification rather

:15:43.:15:47.

than looking at its components. I want to move to amendment ten and

:15:48.:15:53.

two group into it comments for 11-16 and indeed 18-21. Amendment ten on

:15:54.:16:04.

page six talk about the need to change between the title of

:16:05.:16:11.

documents to standard or technical design specifications. This is

:16:12.:16:16.

intended to ensure that only copyright is required at a level to

:16:17.:16:23.

acquit apprenticeships, regarding design specifications, which are the

:16:24.:16:26.

equivalent of assessment plans, are all, it is argued, ground for

:16:27.:16:35.

copyright. The Inquisition of acquired copyright, and this is

:16:36.:16:38.

something that city and Guilds have specifically raised in evidence with

:16:39.:16:42.

ourselves, other groups have as well, if the amendment come forward

:16:43.:16:52.

because there is a concern that imposing acquired copyright is one

:16:53.:16:57.

of the most significant risks to the future vitality of technical

:16:58.:17:00.

education in the UK. I accept this is a complex and technical area, but

:17:01.:17:05.

I do believe the Minister has to look carefully at it. I don't

:17:06.:17:10.

believe it is simply a question of assisting providers wanting to set

:17:11.:17:15.

in Stone a fall of protectionism. It is about intellectual property and

:17:16.:17:21.

where intellectual property starts and ends. The concerns of many

:17:22.:17:25.

providers is that there has been a degree of mission creep in the way

:17:26.:17:32.

the bill has been drafted. I do have to say, from a pragmatic point of

:17:33.:17:37.

view, is that broader definition of what the institute have to do in

:17:38.:17:41.

terms of copyright, which is the existing one in the bill, remains.

:17:42.:17:44.

That may require even more reason losses to police in UAE that advise

:17:45.:17:54.

have already mentioned, lacking support. -- in the way. There is, I

:17:55.:18:01.

say, are the important issue that we need to look at. I would like to

:18:02.:18:08.

also make the point that the concern that each technical level will only

:18:09.:18:12.

have one awarding organisation, something that has been raised by

:18:13.:18:17.

about the Centre for study, market reform of education and the NCSC and

:18:18.:18:27.

the NCS said, we believe -- NCFE. Only one of these going to one

:18:28.:18:30.

awarding organisation would provide... Would... To have one with

:18:31.:18:38.

the unfortunate, to quote Oscar Wilde, to have two would be

:18:39.:18:43.

beneficial because it would provide competition and we could switch

:18:44.:18:47.

quickly without having the multiplication issues that have

:18:48.:18:48.

caused problems and difficulties elsewhere. The NCFE cassettes, I

:18:49.:18:54.

think more in sorrow than anger, that the current proposals do not

:18:55.:19:00.

seek to provide the great expertise in designing and assessing

:19:01.:19:05.

professional and technical education provocations that already exist

:19:06.:19:10.

within awarding organisations. Turning, if I may, to our amendments

:19:11.:19:15.

11-16 to the bill, these are designed, again, to be consequential

:19:16.:19:24.

on the amendments in amendments nine. Under an exclusive licensing

:19:25.:19:31.

model, a licence holder for a particular qualification may assume

:19:32.:19:37.

a qualified model pollack position for the duration, that is one of the

:19:38.:19:45.

reasons why these are designed to move away from that principle. --

:19:46.:19:51.

monopolic. The principle, it seems, to ask is that there is a

:19:52.:19:58.

rationalisation in rewarding operations. Not necessarily the

:19:59.:20:02.

point of single operators on a licence and what this could do to a

:20:03.:20:05.

monopoly at the single point of failure alongside all the IPR and

:20:06.:20:13.

Crown copyright issues. I repeat, this is a concentrated area and they

:20:14.:20:16.

appreciate that getting the balance right is not easy but I do urge him

:20:17.:20:21.

to think very carefully about some of the representations that have

:20:22.:20:25.

been made and again, if we cannot do anything about them tonight, then at

:20:26.:20:31.

least two bring them forward in terms of the other place. The final

:20:32.:20:44.

area which I want to comment on... Briefly... I've talked about the

:20:45.:20:48.

roots and the rest of it, is the amendment and that the GAA because

:20:49.:20:52.

the amendments would ensure that the GAA would be in the about to share

:20:53.:21:00.

information. Information. QAA. And that degree of apprenticeships would

:21:01.:21:02.

be fully covered by this requirement. Ofsted should have the

:21:03.:21:07.

authority do respect every apprenticeship. While the Wellcome

:21:08.:21:13.

the growth and expects more under the levy, some are not genuinely

:21:14.:21:20.

work -based learning and are closer to buy degrees. -- we welcome.

:21:21.:21:24.

Stricter monitoring is needed so we argue that is the involvement of the

:21:25.:21:36.

QAA is really necessary in this. Apprenticeships have to be just

:21:37.:21:38.

that, proper apprenticeships and things that Ofsted have to be

:21:39.:21:52.

engaged with. I am aware that there amendments have had to be discussed

:21:53.:21:56.

in some considerable detail and some of them are technical, but the broad

:21:57.:22:02.

thrust of we are trying to do is to urge the governments, firstly, to

:22:03.:22:09.

act on its commitments and she go further and make some of the

:22:10.:22:13.

rhetoric around social mobility and widening, and participation, a

:22:14.:22:18.

reality. The only way to do that is to improve the bill with the sort of

:22:19.:22:21.

amendments that we have brought forward this evening.

:22:22.:22:29.

The question is that new clause one B read a second time.

:22:30.:22:51.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the first time a microphone

:22:52.:22:59.

appreciate it. Can I first wish my appreciate it. Can I first wish my

:23:00.:23:06.

honourable friend and the House a happy New Year and also to all the

:23:07.:23:11.

Christmas and throughout the New Christmas and throughout the New

:23:12.:23:17.

Year as well. Can I thank you Madam Deputy Speaker for introducing the

:23:18.:23:22.

debate and I am grateful for the honourable member for Blackpool

:23:23.:23:24.

South for his amendment. As ever South for his amendment. As ever

:23:25.:23:31.

very thoughtful. I will start by discussing the proposed new clause,

:23:32.:23:35.

but I do want to just make the point that the honourable gentleman talked

:23:36.:23:40.

about completion of apprenticeships 70% of apprentices complete, 90% get

:23:41.:23:48.

employment or further training. We've got nearly 900,000 apprentices

:23:49.:23:55.

at an all-time high, a record in our nation's history. I think we are

:23:56.:24:00.

making good progress. He then talked about in the early part of his

:24:01.:24:05.

remarks. He will know that between two present 14 and 2015, a

:24:06.:24:11.

proportion of young adult increase to 90%, the highest on record. It

:24:12.:24:19.

fell in 2014 to 6.5%. The lowest rate since records began. He talked

:24:20.:24:27.

about the appointment and was going on yet again about Christmas. I have

:24:28.:24:32.

to say to him that it's not just for Christmas, it's for life. We want to

:24:33.:24:37.

get it right, we want to make sure that the appointments that we make

:24:38.:24:41.

our the right ones and not to do them in haste. I think that the

:24:42.:24:47.

honourable gentleman sometimes says we are doing things too quickly and

:24:48.:24:51.

then on the other times he says we are doing things too slowly. Now, in

:24:52.:24:58.

terms of new clause one, as I explained in the committee, the

:24:59.:25:02.

institute will be required to report on its activities annually under

:25:03.:25:05.

scheduled for the enterprise act and the report must be placed before

:25:06.:25:10.

Parliament. That provision will also allow the Secretary of State to ask

:25:11.:25:14.

the Institute report on anything else she thinks appropriate, such as

:25:15.:25:17.

the information requested the amendment. We think it will be an

:25:18.:25:23.

unnecessary and significant duplication of effort as this

:25:24.:25:26.

information is already collected and published by the Secretary of State

:25:27.:25:30.

apprenticeships. I have given him apprenticeships. I have given him

:25:31.:25:35.

some of the figures a moment ago. Much of this information goes far

:25:36.:25:40.

beyond the Institute. The ends digit's corporal from April 2017 is

:25:41.:25:45.

to oversee and quality assured the development of standards and

:25:46.:25:48.

assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships. Under

:25:49.:25:51.

the reforms in the bill, college -based technical education cannot be

:25:52.:25:55.

held wholly responsible. The job outcomes and wage rates for

:25:56.:25:59.

apprentices once they complete their apprenticeships. It is essential

:26:00.:26:04.

that the Institute is aware of the impact its making. We expected to

:26:05.:26:08.

make good use of the data and the outcomes made available to

:26:09.:26:09.

through these public data sources through these public data sources

:26:10.:26:13.

and surveys. And to explain in its own report have it has deployed

:26:14.:26:18.

them. I'm going to respond to new clause to proposed by the honourable

:26:19.:26:25.

member. Of course. I am grateful to the Minister for the work he does.

:26:26.:26:29.

He is very committed. Whenever I see him he is wearing the AA on his

:26:30.:26:32.

lapel for his support for apprenticeship. Can you clarify one

:26:33.:26:40.

point for me in relation to subsection two E which includes a

:26:41.:26:43.

report on satisfaction rate of employers. The Minister will be

:26:44.:26:47.

to reach the 3 million target there to reach the 3 million target there

:26:48.:26:52.

will be dilation. I'm not saying there will be but there is concerned

:26:53.:26:59.

there might be. Is the satisfaction rate of employers currently

:27:00.:27:01.

collected, not every employer but through sampling and published,

:27:02.:27:04.

because of it as it would be very important for it to be so that the

:27:05.:27:11.

concerns about dilation of standards can be relieved. I thank him for his

:27:12.:27:17.

comments. They are published and I think if I'm not mistaken it's near

:27:18.:27:20.

90% in terms of employer satisfaction. I'm very happy to

:27:21.:27:28.

provide him with information if you so requires. I agree with the

:27:29.:27:34.

honourable member for Blackpool that the Institute does need to consider

:27:35.:27:37.

the views of those who take an apprenticeship or a technical

:27:38.:27:40.

education course and I'm confident it will do this. He will know and he

:27:41.:27:45.

pointed out that we published draft strategic guidance for the Institute

:27:46.:27:51.

last week. In this document that we now open for consultation, we set

:27:52.:27:55.

out and expect the Institute to establish an apprentice panel that

:27:56.:27:57.

will report directly to the board. I am pleased to say to the honourable

:27:58.:28:04.

gentleman that it will be ready by April 2017. But I do want to make a

:28:05.:28:11.

wider point that I'm not... I don't think we should rush things, we need

:28:12.:28:14.

to get it right that apprentice panel will be made up of apprentices

:28:15.:28:19.

from different occupations and experience. The apprentice panel

:28:20.:28:22.

will decide for itself which issues to focus on and will challenge and

:28:23.:28:26.

make recommendations to the board. I am sure it will be a success. It

:28:27.:28:32.

will ensure that the views of apprentices are fed directly into

:28:33.:28:37.

the Institute's covenants. But it might not be exactly the right model

:28:38.:28:42.

in practice. I want to see how it works and I believe that the

:28:43.:28:46.

Institute, particularly in its infancy, should have the flexibility

:28:47.:28:48.

and freedom to decide the best way of gathering apprenticeship

:28:49.:28:51.

ongoing basis. What ever model it ongoing basis. What ever model it

:28:52.:28:54.

adopts, I would expect the Institute adopts, I would expect the Institute

:28:55.:28:58.

of his and similar for technical education shouldn't when it takes on

:28:59.:29:01.

this responsibility. I want to see how the apprentice panel pans out.

:29:02.:29:13.

Thank you. I just want to be... Because of the implications of the

:29:14.:29:17.

wording of the document, I want to be clear on this, is the Minister

:29:18.:29:22.

giving an assurance on the floor of the House that the panel will be

:29:23.:29:27.

setup for April? That he will review the progress of the panel on whether

:29:28.:29:30.

and if he thinks it's not the right and if he thinks it's not the right

:29:31.:29:34.

format of structure, that he will replace it with something that will

:29:35.:29:38.

be equally valuable in representing the views of apprenticeships to the

:29:39.:29:45.

board of the Institute? I am pleased to give the honourable gentleman

:29:46.:29:48.

that guarantee. It will be set up by April. I believe that it would be

:29:49.:29:55.

pointless to have an Institute of apprenticeships in Terrigal

:29:56.:29:56.

education without proper apprenticeship reputation. But I do

:29:57.:30:01.

want to see what is the best format and I'm sure it'll work. It will be

:30:02.:30:07.

a success. I just want to see how it pans out, as I have said. And then

:30:08.:30:11.

something similar for technical something similar for technical

:30:12.:30:16.

education students. I agree the motivation of the amendment but I am

:30:17.:30:21.

concerned about enshrining the establishment panels and

:30:22.:30:24.

legislation. I don't want to pick the Institute and a constant

:30:25.:30:28.

straitjacket of legislative red tape to reflect every good idea that

:30:29.:30:35.

there may be to how best to fulfil its responsibility. That amendment

:30:36.:30:39.

is unnecessary. It would undermine the Institute's power to regulate

:30:40.:30:42.

its own governance and perform its duties. In terms of new clause four,

:30:43.:30:49.

career strategy, the honourable lady made a remarkable speech in

:30:50.:30:56.

about this as I do. I think that we about this as I do. I think that we

:30:57.:31:01.

do have meat on the bones. It is not just words. The

:31:02.:31:04.

talked about budgets. We are talked about budgets. We are

:31:05.:31:13.

spending ?90 million. That is just an the work of the career centre,

:31:14.:31:20.

there is a separate ?77 million being spent this year on national

:31:21.:31:27.

careers service guidance. I am going further, looking at career strategy

:31:28.:31:33.

from beginning to look at how we can make sure it addresses our skill

:31:34.:31:39.

needs, how we can help the most disadvantaged, how we can ensure

:31:40.:31:42.

there is widespread provision and quality provision and how it leads

:31:43.:31:48.

to jobs and security. I will set out my plans on career is over the

:31:49.:31:55.

coming weeks. But the investment in the careers enterprise company, he

:31:56.:32:00.

seemed to suggest there was no activity in London. I've been myself

:32:01.:32:04.

to a school in east London, supported by the careers enterprise

:32:05.:32:08.

company and the local enterprise partnership doing remarkable work.

:32:09.:32:13.

Some 1300 advisers are connecting schools and colleges. They are

:32:14.:32:20.

looking and slowly creating a way to connect with 250,000 students in the

:32:21.:32:26.

75% of the cold spots around the country. There is money for

:32:27.:32:34.

mentoring as well. I think that the honourable gentleman talked about a

:32:35.:32:39.

famine. There's not a feast that there is certainly substantive and

:32:40.:32:43.

serious fans going into this. I could spend a lot of time listing

:32:44.:32:47.

all the different monies and things that their art but I think he looks

:32:48.:32:50.

at this carefully and fairly, he will see the work that the careers

:32:51.:32:57.

enterprise company is doing. We will monitor carefully the impact of our

:32:58.:33:02.

work, destination date will be included and the National

:33:03.:33:05.

time in January 20 17. Ensuring an time in January 20 17. Ensuring an

:33:06.:33:10.

even sharper focus on the success of schools and colleges in supporting

:33:11.:33:13.

the students. We did legislate for my time to make sure that schools

:33:14.:33:21.

gave independent careers advice in terms of skills and apprenticeships.

:33:22.:33:27.

That was done by my predecessor. There is work being done in schools.

:33:28.:33:32.

I welcome the thoughtfulness of the honourable member proposing the new

:33:33.:33:35.

clause but it's my view because of the action we are taking, because of

:33:36.:33:40.

the careers plans that I am developing, because of the money

:33:41.:33:44.

that is being spent as I've highlighted, the proposed new clause

:33:45.:33:50.

is not necessary. In terms of the amendment for, the equality of

:33:51.:33:59.

opportunity, this as you said requires the Institute to promote

:34:00.:34:02.

the opportunity to debate this. I the opportunity to debate this. I

:34:03.:34:08.

know why you've tabled it, why it is important. It is crucial to widen

:34:09.:34:12.

access and bridges are patient and ensure apprenticeships in technical

:34:13.:34:15.

education accessible to all, which is why I was glad that this year we

:34:16.:34:22.

have our 60 million fund to help encourage apprenticeships, in our

:34:23.:34:26.

most deprived areas of our country. I want to reassure the House that

:34:27.:34:31.

the Institute or pensions and technical education will have to

:34:32.:34:36.

have due regard to widening access and participation. We carried out an

:34:37.:34:42.

equalities impact assessment before publishing the post-16 skills plan

:34:43.:34:45.

which concluded the reforms are likely to have positive impact on

:34:46.:34:49.

individuals with protected characteristics. In particular those

:34:50.:34:53.

with special education needs and disability, those with prior

:34:54.:34:56.

attainment, those who are economically disadvantaged. The

:34:57.:34:59.

economic assessment concluded that all learners would benefit from the

:35:00.:35:01.

proposed technical education reforms, which will give people

:35:02.:35:05.

access to high-quality technical education courses. I believe the

:35:06.:35:10.

need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with

:35:11.:35:15.

access to and participation for technical education has already

:35:16.:35:19.

exists in the legislation under the section 149 and 105 of the equality

:35:20.:35:25.

act. It is expressible leak set out in sections of the 2009 act that the

:35:26.:35:30.

Institute must have regard to persons who may wish to undertake

:35:31.:35:35.

educational training within its remit. The Secretary of State has

:35:36.:35:38.

the power to provide the Institute with further guidance under that

:35:39.:35:42.

section. I hope that explanation that you confidence. I'm committed

:35:43.:35:46.

to ensuring people of all backgrounds have equal

:35:47.:35:50.

opportunities. Over Christmas, he will know that we removed the need

:35:51.:35:56.

for people who had hearing, apprentices who have serious hearing

:35:57.:36:02.

difficulties to do functional English and are able to do sign

:36:03.:36:07.

language instead. That's an example of my commitment as well as the

:36:08.:36:12.

extra funding we're getting to employers and to providers in terms

:36:13.:36:18.

of getting more apprentices who are disabled. Of course. Could the

:36:19.:36:30.

Minister confirm that bringing together the oversight of

:36:31.:36:32.

apprenticeships and technical education in one place will bring a

:36:33.:36:37.

court hearings into the system to help ensure and protect diversity

:36:38.:36:44.

and equal opportunity by clearer guidance on all opportunities in

:36:45.:36:45.

terms of career progression? My honourable friend and can think

:36:46.:36:57.

of all on diversity issues and equality is absolutely right. It

:36:58.:37:00.

will benefit the people who need it most. Many people from disadvantaged

:37:01.:37:06.

backgrounds and disabilities are very much prominent in further

:37:07.:37:09.

education and technical education. I just want to move on to amendments

:37:10.:37:18.

five in terms of the apprentice delivery, but I thought the

:37:19.:37:20.

honourable gentleman was a little bit unkind about the border. The

:37:21.:37:32.

board's representative, Channel 4, the London group, where

:37:33.:37:40.

construction, Ministry of Defence, retail, significant retail sector

:37:41.:37:45.

member, and, as he said, three women on it. They are doing important

:37:46.:37:51.

work. They are advising the Government, they are working with

:37:52.:37:56.

business to encourage them to have apprentices and I think these people

:37:57.:38:00.

are not being, as far as I'm aware, not being paid. They don't have to

:38:01.:38:05.

do it but they do it because they want to serve our country and they

:38:06.:38:12.

help the apprentice network, the chair, David Neville, is doing

:38:13.:38:16.

important work on that. I paid review to them and I wouldn't be --

:38:17.:38:23.

Mellor. Whether or not the Prime Minister has or has not, and

:38:24.:38:27.

apprenticeship advisor. As far as I'm concerned, the Prime Minister's

:38:28.:38:30.

apprenticeship advisor is the apprentice Minister, myself. And my

:38:31.:38:40.

boss, the Secretary of State. Having some adviser or not, I don't think,

:38:41.:38:46.

is going to change the course of history in terms of having

:38:47.:38:51.

apprentices in our country. I'm grateful to his generosity. I think

:38:52.:38:55.

a lot of us see him as a journeyman, to use an old-fashioned term. He is

:38:56.:39:03.

a Minister for apprentices. In terms of representation, I do notice in

:39:04.:39:06.

your list he read out and forgive me, because I did meet this before,

:39:07.:39:13.

any trade union representation. Is he an active trade unionist, are

:39:14.:39:16.

certainly was, would he agree with me that it would be desirable to get

:39:17.:39:21.

buying from the workforce side, we do have some trade union

:39:22.:39:25.

representatives on the board. I have to say, he was pleased to know that

:39:26.:39:30.

I am still a trade unionist and what a good idea. The board is

:39:31.:39:36.

independent but I will suggest it. I'm very impressed and supportive of

:39:37.:39:46.

the work that they do, which is widely funded by ?12 million,

:39:47.:39:50.

because of the work that they do to promote apprenticeships. Of course,

:39:51.:39:56.

it will be the case that the institute will consult with all

:39:57.:40:01.

these bodies, delivery board and other bodies, but, as I say,

:40:02.:40:08.

identity we need to straitjacket this is so much red tape that please

:40:09.:40:17.

stop it from being independent. The delivery board is not intended to

:40:18.:40:24.

have any special legislative corporate identity and it would be

:40:25.:40:27.

unusual to name it in legislation but, of course, they will consult

:40:28.:40:32.

with it, as with others. If I can move on to amendments six, this

:40:33.:40:39.

requires the Institute's expansion and anyone here to exceed by the

:40:40.:40:44.

levy. It's important to clarify that the Institute will not have

:40:45.:40:50.

responsibility for the budget, which resides with the Secretary of State

:40:51.:40:55.

for Education. Then the Institute is not a funding body, it will be asked

:40:56.:41:01.

to advise on the pricing of funding bands, the story finally from my

:41:02.:41:07.

department and not from levy fines. It follows that the Institute should

:41:08.:41:11.

not be obliged to spend funds to be raised under the levy. In terms of

:41:12.:41:19.

the devolution, the honourable gentleman mentioned, it would be up

:41:20.:41:22.

to the devolved authorities how they spend that money. If we were too

:41:23.:41:30.

tightly spending explicitly to the levy received, there can be as

:41:31.:41:33.

funding consequences for the programme as a whole. -- tie the. I

:41:34.:41:43.

think the budget spending on apprenticeships in 2019 and 2020 for

:41:44.:41:46.

England, and the devolved administration total in excess of

:41:47.:41:51.

2.9 billion. As opposed to ?2.8 billion. Training is preferable to

:41:52.:41:58.

directly linking the funding on a year by year basis to the wider

:41:59.:42:03.

performance. Of course. I thank the Minister for giving way on that

:42:04.:42:10.

point. The third largest college providing apprenticeships in

:42:11.:42:13.

England, training ever 9000 apprenticeships nationally, the

:42:14.:42:18.

Institute of apprenticeships are particularly interested in how the

:42:19.:42:23.

funding formula works and how it follows the work they are being

:42:24.:42:26.

directly in the gene disease. The point the minister makes your levy

:42:27.:42:31.

and the funding criteria and how it will be delivered, in giving that

:42:32.:42:38.

clarity, is very well this evening. -- welcome. I thank my honourable

:42:39.:42:41.

friend AA and it is brilliant whatever college is doing. I will be

:42:42.:42:45.

pleased, when I'm in the area, to either training. They will also be

:42:46.:42:53.

receiving significant funds. I congratulate that college for the

:42:54.:42:56.

wreck it is doing for apprenticeships. Now, amendments

:42:57.:43:02.

seven would limit the power to confer new funding on the Institute

:43:03.:43:06.

to state funded apprenticeships and technical education. All of the

:43:07.:43:12.

Institute's print functions in part four, scheduled for the enterprise

:43:13.:43:16.

act 2016, and schedule one of the bill apply to all apprenticeships

:43:17.:43:20.

and technical education both occasions, not just date funded

:43:21.:43:27.

ones. I would expect that any new funding coming from that should be

:43:28.:43:31.

the same way to make sure they are fully effective and do not treat

:43:32.:43:34.

anything differently in accordance with how they are paid for. We want

:43:35.:43:38.

to ensure that as many people as possible can undertake an

:43:39.:43:40.

apprenticeship or technical education course and I would not

:43:41.:43:45.

want this to be restricted to those that are state funded, purely

:43:46.:43:48.

because the Institute's functions have been limited. I now we spawned

:43:49.:43:59.

to amendment eight. -- respond. It is important that it is considered

:44:00.:44:02.

what apprenticeship might be considered appropriate for 16-24

:44:03.:44:09.

-year-olds and we know that apprentices are important to school

:44:10.:44:12.

leavers and making sure that anyone from the age of 16 will have an

:44:13.:44:17.

offering of either academic or technical education, or an

:44:18.:44:20.

apprenticeship. The occupational maps, which the Institute will be

:44:21.:44:26.

together, and which will guide Institute will be based on

:44:27.:44:28.

information about the skills needs of the country. They will focus on

:44:29.:44:34.

helping productivity and meeting the needs of employers. By putting any

:44:35.:44:37.

constraint around the development of the maps and the occupations

:44:38.:44:42.

included, such as focusing on a particular group of the population,

:44:43.:44:47.

it would damage this overall aim. My department runs a number of highly

:44:48.:44:50.

successful promotional and advertising this is to help make

:44:51.:44:56.

sure young people access the right apprenticeships for them. And a

:44:57.:44:59.

significant amount of 16-18 year olds take up stands objects. Will

:45:00.:45:09.

even as they give way? Can't I just ask the Minister on the point of

:45:10.:45:14.

STEM subjects and the advice given, is the real problem that, actually,

:45:15.:45:17.

successive governments have tried to do that and this legislation is very

:45:18.:45:23.

well-meaning in trying to do that, and will make a positive difference

:45:24.:45:27.

in many respects, but isn't the very real problem that successive

:45:28.:45:32.

governments have failed in their desire to persuade people that the

:45:33.:45:36.

vocational route is as good as the academic route? Isn't that a

:45:37.:45:40.

problem, culturally, for this country, which has the Devil also

:45:41.:45:52.

decades? -- bedevilled. That is right, one of the first things I say

:45:53.:45:56.

is transforming culture. As said, it's not just governments, its

:45:57.:46:00.

business as well that have underinvested. It has always been

:46:01.:46:05.

seen as a so-called... I head each end, Cinderella sector. The whole

:46:06.:46:13.

purpose of the Sainsbury re-forms is to change behaviours and give

:46:14.:46:17.

apprenticeships and skills, and technical education and prestige

:46:18.:46:23.

that they deserve. The real question for the minister, as it was when I

:46:24.:46:28.

was a Schools Minister, and other people, when a Conservative,

:46:29.:46:31.

Liberal, Labour relic, why would it be different this time, given that

:46:32.:46:37.

this is the sort of...? The Minister is absolutely right in what he has

:46:38.:46:41.

said, but why will it be given this time to all the other times that

:46:42.:46:46.

have gone before? Well, I wasn't around with the other times, but I

:46:47.:46:54.

do believe that reforms... Of course we have difference. There is

:46:55.:46:58.

cross-party consensus on the Sainsbury forms, the levies are a

:46:59.:47:03.

fundamental reform and it's not just about changing this. -- reform. I

:47:04.:47:09.

believe there's a new conversation about apprenticeships and things are

:47:10.:47:15.

changing. Of course, the proof of the pudding will be any teaching but

:47:16.:47:21.

we are on Egypt of something very special but a lot more has to be

:47:22.:47:28.

done. -- the tip. I will just speak briefly on the other amendments.

:47:29.:47:37.

Some of them. Because of time. The amendment nine, we... Feel that we

:47:38.:47:46.

don't need to, whilst it's important, I understand, things that

:47:47.:47:49.

the honourable gentleman races, we feel that it's not necessary to have

:47:50.:47:56.

an amendment on that. -- raises. The important feature on amendment on

:47:57.:48:04.

apprenticeships and it is on qualifications making up an

:48:05.:48:09.

apprenticeship to want an end assessment. By not mandating

:48:10.:48:13.

qualification standards unless they meet these criteria, ensuring that

:48:14.:48:16.

individual employers have the freedom and flexibility to turn how

:48:17.:48:20.

they train as an apprentice is to make sure they gain full confidence

:48:21.:48:29.

in C, -- competency. In terms of the education copyright permissions,

:48:30.:48:35.

there are very complicated... I understand why the honourable

:48:36.:48:39.

gentleman has brought them through. We don't agree, we don't think it's

:48:40.:48:47.

necessary. We think some of it is covered by existing legislation, but

:48:48.:48:50.

we do think the Institute should have rights of copyright,

:48:51.:48:59.

particularly... And the employers who are the licensees will know

:49:00.:49:04.

this, whether... The bodies, sorry, that work in the Institute will know

:49:05.:49:07.

that the Institute should have copyright. We don't agree with

:49:08.:49:14.

changing the word, roots, because we think it will be confusing to

:49:15.:49:19.

employers. I wanted to be procedures. I want technical

:49:20.:49:26.

education, identify the word tech levels because it's dumbed down an

:49:27.:49:30.

important provocation. In terms of amendment 17, the power to transfer

:49:31.:49:34.

technical education certificates, we have a duty of care to the taxpayer.

:49:35.:49:42.

The industry is not making money out of this, it's about giving them the

:49:43.:49:46.

power to do so if they so choose. Having a duty of care to the

:49:47.:49:49.

taxpayer. I think that's important why we don't support that amendment.

:49:50.:49:54.

In terms of the quality assurance agency in an 18-21, the organisation

:49:55.:50:03.

was not already named -- the organisations that are already named

:50:04.:50:07.

already have this. This clause reflects in part of the changes that

:50:08.:50:11.

are being introduced in the higher education research bill that is

:50:12.:50:17.

currently in the other place. Now, I don't think that the proposed

:50:18.:50:20.

amendment 20, which specifies apprenticeships included those of by

:50:21.:50:25.

high-risk Asian Institute, is required. I'm Claire that they can

:50:26.:50:27.

apprenticeships include all apprenticeships. -- higher education

:50:28.:50:38.

institutes. . Providing training. -- clear. I thank the honourable member

:50:39.:50:43.

for the amendments and other contributions for the other

:50:44.:50:46.

honourable members and I hope my responses to these amendments have

:50:47.:50:50.

reassured the honourable member Polak in this house about this. I

:50:51.:50:54.

beg to move that easily withdrawn. -- tenders. -- members.

:50:55.:51:04.

I did want to pick the use of my remarks on this amendment in

:51:05.:51:11.

context. I was speaking to someone recently who made the very good

:51:12.:51:18.

point. Who is sitting on the bathrooms and kitchens in Poland.

:51:19.:51:22.

This person had very good experience of delegations from Romania working

:51:23.:51:27.

in this country. The conversation we had was about Brexit and the skills

:51:28.:51:33.

shortage in the United Kingdom. Brexit, whichever side of that

:51:34.:51:37.

wrong, gives an opportunity to our wrong, gives an opportunity to our

:51:38.:51:43.

country to try to address the skills shortages that we have, for decades,

:51:44.:51:51.

relied on filling by importing workers. There are fingers

:51:52.:51:59.

roundabout, I don't know them exactly. As to the proportion of NHS

:52:00.:52:04.

bodies who were trained abroad. We would all conceive it is quite a

:52:05.:52:10.

high proportion. Those people often, not always, come from countries

:52:11.:52:14.

which can ill afford to lose them. The UK as a rich country because we

:52:15.:52:21.

haven't got our technical education and apprenticeships architecture

:52:22.:52:28.

correct ends up poaching skilled labour on occasions from countries

:52:29.:52:32.

who desperately need that Labour to build their own economies. He is

:52:33.:52:38.

making a very thoughtful point and he may be aware that in Lithuania

:52:39.:52:40.

there is now a very successful party there is now a very successful party

:52:41.:52:47.

which is against in the -- emigration but immigration. I'm not

:52:48.:52:55.

surprised. I had the joy in the last Parliament of visiting Lithuania and

:52:56.:52:58.

that's the sort of thing we talked about. In those days, Lithuania was

:52:59.:53:04.

already starting to import labour from Moldova, outside the EU,

:53:05.:53:08.

because so many Lithuanians with their skills had come particularly

:53:09.:53:13.

to the UK and Ireland to apply their respective trades and I'm intrigued

:53:14.:53:17.

specifically. What this bill does and I think what my honourable

:53:18.:53:22.

friend on the front has sought to do is to beef up the bill in two ways.

:53:23.:53:31.

One is to introduce even more confidence in the new system which

:53:32.:53:35.

we will have and part of that confidence building is towards

:53:36.:53:43.

national standards because this, I think, addresses the issue or

:53:44.:53:45.

partially addresses the issue raised partially addresses the issue raised

:53:46.:53:51.

by my honourable friend about the parity of esteem in which we talked

:53:52.:53:56.

about earlier this afternoon between mental health and physical health,

:53:57.:53:59.

departed esteem between vocational and academic. At one point in my

:54:00.:54:02.

life, having been a semiskilled worker for a number of years, a bus

:54:03.:54:06.

driver and professional driver, I faced a fort in the road. Was I

:54:07.:54:10.

going to go down the vocational route? Be a plumber? Or down the

:54:11.:54:12.

academic route, be a lawyer. I went academic route, be a lawyer. I went

:54:13.:54:17.

down the route and became a lawyer. I don't regret it at all. One of the

:54:18.:54:23.

reasons I did that was because of esteem or lack thereof. Another one

:54:24.:54:28.

was because you get to work indoors, plumbers are on building sites

:54:29.:54:31.

working outdoors I don't like the cold. In those days, I'm talking a

:54:32.:54:38.

little while ago, the money was better in Lord and it was in

:54:39.:54:41.

plumbing and I'm not sure that's the case now. We let in a capitalist

:54:42.:54:45.

society. Part of what we need to do is to moods towards that parity of

:54:46.:54:51.

esteem and it's the sort of thing is the Minister has been trying to do

:54:52.:54:56.

during his tenure in that job through this bill. Part of it in a

:54:57.:55:00.

capitalist society is to pay people more. If you want parity of esteem,

:55:01.:55:04.

started being people equal amounts, start paying the plumber is as much

:55:05.:55:08.

as the lawyers and this being capitalism we are moving to that

:55:09.:55:13.

because of skills -- shortages. New clause one, I quite understand what

:55:14.:55:17.

the Minister said about some of the information that he's already

:55:18.:55:21.

act, but I think having it on the act, but I think having it on the

:55:22.:55:26.

face of this bill as my honourable friend the member for Blackpool

:55:27.:55:29.

South has said would be helpful in terms of the message we sent about

:55:30.:55:33.

confidence and similarly with new clause to in terms of having a

:55:34.:55:35.

system for those representative system for those representative

:55:36.:55:41.

panels were more representative and were in place. I welcome what the

:55:42.:55:44.

Minister has said this afternoon, his assurance that those panels will

:55:45.:55:49.

be in place by April and I hope they will have a bread of representation

:55:50.:55:55.

which should I think be on the face of the legislation. He replied

:55:56.:55:59.

positively in a slightly different context of trade unions being

:56:00.:56:03.

involved. This is not simply some kind of tit-for-tat, you've got the

:56:04.:56:07.

bosses on there, we've got to have the workers on the hour. That's

:56:08.:56:11.

important but it's about getting buy in from all sections of our society

:56:12.:56:16.

for this new regime to build towards, as I say, addressing the

:56:17.:56:20.

skills shortages that we will face under Brexit because under Brexit,

:56:21.:56:25.

there is no mistake, the price for staying in the single market would

:56:26.:56:29.

be free movement of labour and free movement of people. The United

:56:30.:56:32.

Kingdom population as a whole have said they're not up on that, they

:56:33.:56:37.

don't want that, they don't want free movement of people are free

:56:38.:56:39.

movement of labour. We are not staying in the single market but

:56:40.:56:42.

were not having that free movement either. There will be restrictions

:56:43.:56:45.

and we ought to be using that any and we ought to be using that any

:56:46.:56:47.

train up for the jobs and we don't train up for the jobs and we don't

:56:48.:56:52.

keep putting skilled people from abroad whether Lithuania are

:56:53.:56:54.

elsewhere. We need for that national elsewhere. We need for that national

:56:55.:57:06.

standards. I think that for the confidence we need proper advice

:57:07.:57:11.

because careers advice, certainly in England, has been to say the least

:57:12.:57:15.

patchy over the years. My own Government remember when we set up

:57:16.:57:20.

Connections and that was a resounding success, certainly in the

:57:21.:57:24.

West Midlands. I think that new clause four, I would urge the

:57:25.:57:28.

Minister to think again because it is to do with building confidence,

:57:29.:57:35.

particularly new clause four sub three B and D, be reading, ensure

:57:36.:57:40.

that such information of advice and guidance may be taken into account

:57:41.:57:43.

by the relevant authorities and partners to meet the needs of local

:57:44.:57:51.

combined authority areas. And 43 D would be to quote monitor the

:57:52.:57:54.

outcomes of such information and advice and guidance for recipients.

:57:55.:58:00.

Because that is part of confidence building that we have a regime which

:58:01.:58:06.

is sensitive to a local labour markets and local labour market

:58:07.:58:12.

world changed greatly come April 2019 when we are out of the European

:58:13.:58:20.

Union. This bill is part of the Government is surprisingly given

:58:21.:58:23.

what's not happening and other areas, showing a bit of foresight

:58:24.:58:26.

about that and I congratulate the Minister and Matt Wood that we had

:58:27.:58:29.

such foresight about some of the ramifications Rebecca and other

:58:30.:58:33.

areas of public endeavour. But we don't. This bill is a step in part

:58:34.:58:39.

of that digs for me. I'm not saying that's when a minister sought to

:58:40.:58:41.

introduce to the house, but I do think we should look upon positively

:58:42.:58:44.

in that way. I think the new clause four would help build the confidence

:58:45.:58:51.

in the new system and make sure that it was reflective and flexible.

:58:52.:58:55.

Because the Minister, in referring to amendment nine, and the ones

:58:56.:59:03.

friend from Blackpool side said are friend from Blackpool side said are

:59:04.:59:10.

under the umbrella of nine, talked about employers having freedom and

:59:11.:59:18.

flexibility. Amendment nine is to do with recognised technical

:59:19.:59:21.

qualifications, something that I mentioned earlier in this debate,

:59:22.:59:25.

which is to do with national standards, certainly for England,

:59:26.:59:26.

that we have those as part of the that we have those as part of the

:59:27.:59:29.

confidence building measure but also as part of making sure that we have

:59:30.:59:34.

the right people with the right skills. In a sense, workforce

:59:35.:59:41.

planning. This country is pretty poor at workforce planning. The one

:59:42.:59:48.

area where we could have excellent workforce planning because the

:59:49.:59:52.

number of employees is so enormous and almost all of them work for the

:59:53.:59:58.

state is in health care delivery. Yet, it's absolutely appalling. We

:59:59.:00:03.

don't have enough Doctor strange, dentists, not enough professions

:00:04.:00:09.

allied to medicine, the botanists, radiographers, yet that is the one

:00:10.:00:13.

area at workforce planning, which the Government could get right, and

:00:14.:00:17.

this is not just this Government that has singularly failed, though

:00:18.:00:19.

the coalition Government of things to go backwards in terms of shutting

:00:20.:00:22.

down some nurse training places and so on. But the figures are the

:00:23.:00:26.

number of employers on the NHS in England alone is a huge that one can

:00:27.:00:32.

take into account social training and do some pretty good workforce

:00:33.:00:35.

planning at the kind of skills one is going to need in five years, the

:00:36.:00:39.

ten years it takes to train a doctor and so on. Since 1948, arguably,

:00:40.:00:45.

we've been rubbish about. I think having national standards is

:00:46.:00:48.

important. It's important for confidence and workforce planning. I

:00:49.:00:51.

would urge the Minister to have another think about the import of

:00:52.:00:58.

amendment nine, if not the actual wording of it. Because it's all very

:00:59.:01:03.

well having flexibility and freedom for employers, which I think were

:01:04.:01:07.

correct me if I'm wrong, as to why correct me if I'm wrong, as to why

:01:08.:01:11.

he thought amendment nine should not be supported in the insight from my

:01:12.:01:14.

honourable friend from Blackpool side to withdraw it. The Minister

:01:15.:01:18.

should have another think about that because national standards are

:01:19.:01:21.

important. I draw on my own experience. And qualified as a

:01:22.:01:29.

lawyer, I take exams which covered everyone he was seeking to be a

:01:30.:01:33.

cluster in England and Wales. A national exam. For most of us, if we

:01:34.:01:39.

passed it, we then went on to the equivalent of an apprenticeship, it

:01:40.:01:44.

was called articles of clerkship, two years citizens office, when that

:01:45.:01:48.

was changed, no longer to be in national exam taken by everyone who

:01:49.:01:52.

wished to be a solicitor in England and Wales, but became a moderated

:01:53.:02:02.

one to the other. It changed to a one to the other. It changed to a

:02:03.:02:08.

legal practice course. And standards went down. I see that having taught

:02:09.:02:16.

-- talked to people in post secondary institutions at the time,

:02:17.:02:21.

having myself trained article clerks who had come through the later

:02:22.:02:25.

system when we didn't have the national standards. Having national

:02:26.:02:27.

standard is not a guarantee of standard is not a guarantee of

:02:28.:02:31.

But it is something which can be But it is something which can be

:02:32.:02:35.

used by any Government quite legitimately and quite properly to

:02:36.:02:39.

make sure we have confidence in the system and that those who are going

:02:40.:02:42.

through an apprenticeship system and are coming out as fully qualified

:02:43.:02:48.

has a qualification which is worth having for them as an individual and

:02:49.:02:54.

is worth every society having. I think national standards are

:02:55.:03:01.

desirable in that context. I thank the honourable gentleman before

:03:02.:03:04.

giving way. I just want to make the point that qualifications can be

:03:05.:03:11.

mandated in an apprenticeship standard if it's a mandatory

:03:12.:03:14.

requirements set by the regulator, he was talking about... These

:03:15.:03:20.

include qualifications recognise as the legal requirement, licence

:03:21.:03:26.

practice, reduced as a... When applying for jobs in the occupation

:03:27.:03:30.

related to the standard and the apprentice would be disadvantaged

:03:31.:03:31.

the job market without it. I thank the job market without it. I thank

:03:32.:03:38.

the Minister for that clarification. He helpfully makes the point of me.

:03:39.:03:42.

We are going to have national standards in certain fields of

:03:43.:03:44.

endeavour which he has just endeavour which he has just

:03:45.:03:48.

helpfully laid out. I think if I may say so, there is a contradiction in

:03:49.:03:52.

his position which I don't think I suffer from this contradiction. When

:03:53.:03:55.

we look at amendment seven, to do we look at amendment seven, to do

:03:56.:04:00.

with the state funded aspect, where my honourable friend from Blackpool

:04:01.:04:05.

size would insert the word state funded and the Minister, I find,

:04:06.:04:10.

persuasively, the ministers set out why he thought that would not be

:04:11.:04:15.

right to have an amendment because, as I understood him and I may have

:04:16.:04:19.

misunderstood, he was looking for a more overarching model which would

:04:20.:04:25.

encompass privately obtained qualifications. I agree with him

:04:26.:04:31.

there. I'm just saying if one is not accepting an amendment to seven,

:04:32.:04:35.

then there is the logic of accepting something like amendment nine to say

:04:36.:04:38.

it's not just going to be state funded and we are going to have

:04:39.:04:42.

national standards, not just on that broad but restricted field the

:04:43.:04:46.

Minister just helpfully read out to have it more broadly than that

:04:47.:04:50.

because I think that would be better for confidence and better for our

:04:51.:04:53.

economy. It would be better for the people, many of whom will be young

:04:54.:04:57.

people, but not all of them, who will be getting as qualifications. I

:04:58.:05:03.

ask the Minister to think again. A similar issue arises to me in

:05:04.:05:09.

amendment 18 through 21 on the quality assurance agency for higher

:05:10.:05:11.

education and its involvement in these whole process. Again, that to

:05:12.:05:17.

me is about confidence that employers and prospective

:05:18.:05:22.

apprentices and for the younger ones, their families, it confidence

:05:23.:05:23.

they can have any system that it is they can have any system that it is

:05:24.:05:29.

going to deliver a qualification which our country needs and which is

:05:30.:05:37.

that those individual that those individual

:05:38.:05:39.

apprenticeships when they finish will not only likely have a job, but

:05:40.:05:44.

will be contributing to society in a way which we would like them to back

:05:45.:05:51.

to the workforce planning point. I think that the Minister and the

:05:52.:05:56.

Government to think again on amendments 18 through 21, not the

:05:57.:06:00.

exact wording of them but to include the quality assurance agency for

:06:01.:06:05.

higher education as part of this process of agencies, which will have

:06:06.:06:10.

a role to play in the planning and in the maintenance and perhaps even

:06:11.:06:14.

of raising standards, that would be desirable. I wish to make a brief

:06:15.:06:23.

contribution building on I was a member of the Bill committee and it

:06:24.:06:26.

was a very constructive Bill committee with much cross-party

:06:27.:06:31.

support, both with the Minister who has a real passion and a real depth

:06:32.:06:35.

of knowledge in this area and well supported by our shadow minister who

:06:36.:06:40.

demonstrated a genuine interest in this particular area. I want to

:06:41.:06:43.

focus on one specific area which the shadow minister raises in his desire

:06:44.:06:50.

to promote the equality of opportunity. For me, that includes

:06:51.:06:53.

those with a disability. Specifically those with a learning

:06:54.:06:59.

disability. This Government has made great progress in helping more

:07:00.:07:04.

disabled people into work, 600,000 were disabled people in work in the

:07:05.:07:08.

last three years, which is fantastic. However, those with a

:07:09.:07:10.

learning disabilities still continue to find it extremely difficult to

:07:11.:07:16.

take, to benefit from the opportunities of work. It is about

:07:17.:07:17.

6%. Of giving way but does he agree with

:07:18.:07:26.

me that we need to help the employers to deal the people with

:07:27.:07:31.

disabilities mental health issues, disabilities mental health issues,

:07:32.:07:33.

because that requires a lot of support for the employer as well as

:07:34.:07:36.

the person taking the apprenticeship? Absolutely. That

:07:37.:07:40.

going to make because it is both... going to make because it is both...

:07:41.:07:45.

It takes time for people to develop skills but it gives an opportunity

:07:46.:07:51.

for the employer to be able to provide a suitable opportunity for

:07:52.:07:53.

the person with the learning disability. We tried to give

:07:54.:08:03.

everyone an opportunity, that is around 6%. The worst percentage of

:08:04.:08:07.

any disability and it provides the largest challenge. When I was the

:08:08.:08:11.

Minister for disabled people, I went along to Fox's Hotel in Bridgwater

:08:12.:08:16.

and I was incredibly impressed by the fact that they managed to get

:08:17.:08:22.

80% of their young students into work. A three-year course, two years

:08:23.:08:30.

inside a working hotel where they land to have independent living

:08:31.:08:34.

skills and also to work towards having a job once they've finished.

:08:35.:08:39.

Within that working hotel, name the learning the skills that were needed

:08:40.:08:43.

for their local talent, which was hotels, restaurants, care homes. In

:08:44.:08:47.

all our own individual constituencies, we've got our own

:08:48.:08:50.

skill gaps, so you would adapt it accordingly. For yeah, they spent

:08:51.:08:55.

the year continuing their learning directly in the workplace. My

:08:56.:09:01.

honourable friend for High Peak highlights the importance for

:09:02.:09:05.

employers, it gave the employers and opportunity to have support. Fox's

:09:06.:09:10.

Academy would come along and provide training, advice to the employer and

:09:11.:09:16.

the staff, gave the young lad or lady the opportunity to learn those

:09:17.:09:21.

skills patiently over a year and, to me, it was an apprenticeship. They

:09:22.:09:26.

were learning skills on the job. I invited the team back in to talk to

:09:27.:09:33.

me. We ask about increasing numbers and they said they could, but the

:09:34.:09:39.

final yes expensive because we have to go in and support the employer do

:09:40.:09:46.

that training. -- final yeah. It seems, to me, every can read that

:09:47.:09:49.

this is an apprenticeship, we can access the funding which is being

:09:50.:09:56.

created three V and create a huge number of opportunities. --. I read

:09:57.:10:02.

met with the Minister. He set up the Maynard review and I'm delighted the

:10:03.:10:05.

Government has accepted everything one of those. I want to pay tribute

:10:06.:10:11.

to both mencap and scared for the work they get as part of that to

:10:12.:10:16.

help reshape some tangible opportunities. -- Scope. I want to

:10:17.:10:22.

sleep to the Minister and say that I'm thankful he saw that through. We

:10:23.:10:25.

touched on this but I want to urge the Minister to crack on with those

:10:26.:10:28.

pilots, make a real opportunity pilots, make a real opportunity

:10:29.:10:32.

because every young adult well seize that opportunity if they argued on

:10:33.:10:36.

it. These are the people who, having met with hundreds of young adults

:10:37.:10:42.

with a learning disability, they are desperate to be given that

:10:43.:10:43.

opportunity. I want to see those opportunity. I want to see those

:10:44.:10:49.

pilots and I want to see this made a priority, and, in his summing up,

:10:50.:10:53.

explain where we are with that, what is the timetable and what can we do

:10:54.:11:01.

to raise this with local lawyers? -- employers. Thank you. It's a great

:11:02.:11:05.

opportunity to speak in this because I was a member of the build

:11:06.:11:10.

community as well -- committee. I was disappointed there was not a

:11:11.:11:13.

current amendment brought forward for this, at this stage, reflecting

:11:14.:11:17.

any build unity, which seem to be any build unity, which seem to be

:11:18.:11:21.

accepted at the time by the Minister, in broad terms, and I

:11:22.:11:30.

hope... That in place to reflect some of those. And some of the

:11:31.:11:38.

points being made this evening. Particularly by my honourable friend

:11:39.:11:45.

on the front bench,, who has been a Geordie Borth in bringing in these

:11:46.:11:48.

amendments. It is no surprise that there are no new causes at all in

:11:49.:11:53.

the report stage, which is very unusual. -- it is a surprise. And

:11:54.:11:58.

all the amendments and new causes were put in by my honourable friend

:11:59.:12:03.

on behalf of the opposition, which is splendid and I support them but

:12:04.:12:06.

it is a pricing and a bit disappointing, even with a degree of

:12:07.:12:10.

agreement on the value of this legislation, on this Bill, and we

:12:11.:12:15.

all know that we've got to do something about improving

:12:16.:12:23.

apprenticeships and training. It is said that he had to train our own

:12:24.:12:26.

rather than poking people from abroad. I think the first new clause

:12:27.:12:36.

one, requiring... -- Scope. It's about the ad, completed

:12:37.:12:44.

apprenticeships. -- poaching. Not just about the broader measures of

:12:45.:12:49.

success. This specific quality of those apprenticeships is absolutely

:12:50.:12:52.

vital to ensure that apprenticeships to reach to the development of

:12:53.:12:57.

skills and long-term jobs after their completion. Those young

:12:58.:13:02.

people, who come apprenticeships, have to be desirable by the

:13:03.:13:06.

employers and their own employers. They have to be able to command good

:13:07.:13:14.

jobs in the long and look forward to relatively high pay enhancement in

:13:15.:13:20.

those jobs. I think maybe sure that the apprenticeships are quality, not

:13:21.:13:24.

just in words, but actually that they can really do the things they

:13:25.:13:29.

are required to do after they have qualified. It is so, so important. I

:13:30.:13:35.

have to say I remember the days, long ago, when we had full

:13:36.:13:41.

employment. Many decades ago. I used to teach further education during

:13:42.:13:44.

that error and, in many ways, it was a better period than react now.

:13:45.:13:51.

Happy for sure. Everybody who wanted a job got one. Teaching in further

:13:52.:13:57.

education was a sheer joy. It has been more painful and stressful

:13:58.:14:01.

since then, and less well paid. The conditions are not as good as they

:14:02.:14:06.

were then I was there. That several decades ago. The early 1970s. We

:14:07.:14:11.

also had large companies, large manufacturing companies mainly, also

:14:12.:14:17.

the giant public utilities in giant public ownership, who employed

:14:18.:14:20.

thousands of apprenticeships, apprentices each year. They had to

:14:21.:14:25.

train their own and they wanted to make sure they were good at the end

:14:26.:14:28.

of the day. Some of them have moved on to other jobs and crude and well

:14:29.:14:34.

as well but non-US, it was beneficial both to the best

:14:35.:14:41.

individuals and to our economy. -- none the less. We were training our

:14:42.:14:44.

own and refilled to do that in recent times. We've left it to the

:14:45.:14:50.

market, if one likes, and the market doesn't always work well in these

:14:51.:14:54.

matters, it does require a degree of Government intervention. It is very

:14:55.:14:58.

significant, as the Prime Minister said, using a phrase that has not

:14:59.:15:01.

been used by any Government for a long time. Industrial strategy.

:15:02.:15:05.

Talking about the need for industrial strategy. I absolutely

:15:06.:15:10.

support that. We had a debate on industrial strategy just eight years

:15:11.:15:16.

ago when the honourable member Leamington Spa let the debate and it

:15:17.:15:19.

was very good that those words, I think, are significant. I think this

:15:20.:15:24.

is part of that industrial strategy. We do next to reach a nice people to

:15:25.:15:27.

rebuild industry because they don't produce enough any more,

:15:28.:15:29.

particularly any manufacturing is sector. We do well in services, but

:15:30.:15:36.

not in manufacturing. We have a trade deficit because they can't

:15:37.:15:40.

produce enough and have to buy in from abroad. We have to rebuild this

:15:41.:15:46.

section. Not in reinforcing manufacturing by producing efficient

:15:47.:15:49.

to have a trade balance that is sensible, which we don't have any

:15:50.:15:56.

moment. Apprenticeships have always been somewhat insecure in recent

:15:57.:15:59.

times because companies are now smaller than a word, in general

:16:00.:16:03.

terms. They are less secure because of economic crisis and indeed many

:16:04.:16:10.

anecdotes I have from my own experience, just after the 2008

:16:11.:16:13.

crisis, I was being driven to Heathrow for a visit, a

:16:14.:16:18.

parliamentary visit, and the driver said he had an apprenticeship. The

:16:19.:16:24.

company had been met has collapsed and you can stop being a cab driver,

:16:25.:16:28.

which he could have done the an apprenticeship. -- been with. Other

:16:29.:16:35.

examples of small companies training apprentices who are then poached by

:16:36.:16:40.

larger, a lot more financially lucrative companies, saying that in

:16:41.:16:45.

the motor trade, where you have small skills companies which are

:16:46.:16:49.

training people and then they are pouched by the large companies that

:16:50.:16:56.

do lucrative insurance repair work, and they compare... Of course I will

:16:57.:17:00.

give way. I thank the honourable gentleman again. Just another

:17:01.:17:05.

viewpoint. I don't have the figures at hand but the evidence does

:17:06.:17:12.

suggest that apprentices and income, they are loyal to the company more

:17:13.:17:16.

than other training schemes or early jobs than any other. They changed to

:17:17.:17:23.

stay in the companies that they did their apprenticeship in. I'm sure

:17:24.:17:29.

the Minister's ride for the majority but looking at house prices at the

:17:30.:17:31.

moment, certainly in the Luton, I moment, certainly in the Luton, I

:17:32.:17:37.

know of companies which do employ apprentices, small motor repair

:17:38.:17:41.

companies, and they are under pressure to get a home if they can

:17:42.:17:44.

earn a feud thousand more at another large company nearby, to help them

:17:45.:17:48.

get on the housing ladder, they will do that. I agree that loyalty is

:17:49.:17:53.

be loyal but if the pressure, be loyal but if the pressure,

:17:54.:17:56.

financial pressures on their lives are as such that they have been

:17:57.:18:03.

moved, they welcome any end, move. I am going to support all the points

:18:04.:18:06.

made by my honourable friend from the front bench, but particularly on

:18:07.:18:11.

the need for a strategy for improving careers education. And new

:18:12.:18:20.

clause four. What we have to do is make sure that, when young people

:18:21.:18:23.

are at school or in education, they are aware of the knowledge range of

:18:24.:18:26.

opportunities out there and they don't look at a narrow field. In the

:18:27.:18:32.

Luton, have to say, a high proportion of my local young

:18:33.:18:37.

students want to get into the legal profession, for example. They want

:18:38.:18:42.

to be professionals. What they don't appreciate is that there are highly

:18:43.:18:45.

paid, highly skilled jobs in the manufacturing industry. Vauxhall

:18:46.:18:50.

Motors, which has a plan in losing, the senior executives, almost all of

:18:51.:18:55.

them started as apprentices, leaving school, doing apprenticeships and

:18:56.:19:01.

getting up the ladder. Eventually doing high qualifications, such as

:19:02.:19:08.

HNC and HND is. Becoming highly paid people in the company. People are

:19:09.:19:11.

aware of them and we have to do have careers strategies to make sure

:19:12.:19:16.

every young person knows of the thousands of different drills and

:19:17.:19:23.

that human life. -- HNCs and HNDs. -- roles. Or just going into a local

:19:24.:19:29.

company. There are a lot of things young people can do and life can be

:19:30.:19:34.

very exciting. It is very important to do something which we enjoy

:19:35.:19:39.

doing. I'm very fortunate that I like politics in my early life I

:19:40.:19:42.

lead a knock in parliament, where I wanted to be. I don't regret a

:19:43.:19:49.

minute of it. Sometimes people aren't aware of the enormous range

:19:50.:19:54.

of possibilities and alive and having a very, very powerful careers

:19:55.:20:00.

advice strategy, I think, is really vital, not just for the people,

:20:01.:20:03.

young people and their own lives, but for the economy. If people are

:20:04.:20:08.

happy in their work, they will work better, the economy will like that

:20:09.:20:12.

and he will be a much better place. I have just one more story, just to

:20:13.:20:16.

say what has happened in the region, which is a tragedy. We were a town

:20:17.:20:22.

which trained thousands of apprentices and I know many of them

:20:23.:20:25.

personally myself. Recently I visited a small manufacturing

:20:26.:20:29.

company that makes components for Formula 1, jaguar, and they couldn't

:20:30.:20:37.

find one to make it. They couldn't find one from a town of over 200

:20:38.:20:40.

people that was dominated by manufacturing. Not one. It is a

:20:41.:20:44.

disgrace that we have failed to gain sufficient people. I think there's

:20:45.:20:51.

many other things I'm glad to say, but I could speak for an hour

:20:52.:20:54.

unaided, I'm sure, but there are others who want to speak, then I

:20:55.:20:57.

shall leave it there but I had the point I've made are of interest.

:20:58.:21:04.

Thank you, Madam Deputy is legal. Clearly, I wasn't on the bill, but

:21:05.:21:08.

clearly the Secretary for further education bill was a bill that

:21:09.:21:15.

generated a lot of good debate and positive views about how we might

:21:16.:21:21.

all improve, what we all want, which is the technical and vocational

:21:22.:21:25.

education in our country and an improvement to apprenticeships.

:21:26.:21:28.

There is no and can be no division between on that that was witnessed

:21:29.:21:34.

by the contribution of the Minister and in a very good contribution of

:21:35.:21:37.

my honourable friend from the front bench, and also the contributions. I

:21:38.:21:42.

also wanted to just raise something which, I think set the context for

:21:43.:21:46.

the Dell and really goes back to the remarks that I made to the Minister.

:21:47.:21:53.

In the decades, it has been the desire of every governments,

:21:54.:21:57.

whatever it has come up with, to try and do something about enhancing the

:21:58.:22:02.

stages and is being about apprenticeships and technical and

:22:03.:22:08.

vocational education. Our country has been levelled by a culture that

:22:09.:22:15.

the technical and dumb aggregation as second class in terms of

:22:16.:22:18.

situation ship to academic qualifications.

:22:19.:22:23.

We all say it is wrong and it is. But culturely that has not moved in

:22:24.:22:33.

the last 30/40 years. And I hope the minister is right. Can I say, I want

:22:34.:22:39.

him to be right in what he said, when he said this, when I said to

:22:40.:22:44.

him the question, why will it be different this time to all of the

:22:45.:22:49.

other times? Because every minister, whether Conservative, Labour, or

:22:50.:22:53.

whoever, would have had the passion and desire to exactly as the

:22:54.:22:57.

minister himself has just said. So, I hope, and I say this to him as a

:22:58.:23:02.

Conservative, and me as a Labour backbencher, I hope he's right. And

:23:03.:23:06.

I hope that this time it is different, because our country is

:23:07.:23:13.

held back as an economy, as a power by the fact that it isn't right at

:23:14.:23:17.

the moment and it is also held back by the fact that tens of thousands,

:23:18.:23:24.

if not millions of our young people, millions of our families, across our

:23:25.:23:28.

country, have not achieved what they should have done because of that as

:23:29.:23:31.

well. And so, when we talk about

:23:32.:23:37.

inequality of opportunity, and the failure of many communities to

:23:38.:23:41.

advance and to progress, all of those things, part of that is

:23:42.:23:46.

because of the fact that we don't value vocational education in the

:23:47.:23:52.

way that we should. Challenging that is what, it seems to me, is what

:23:53.:23:55.

this bill committee has been about and why I wanted to come in and make

:23:56.:23:59.

a small and brief contribution now. Let me say this, Mr Deputy Speaker,

:24:00.:24:05.

the depth of the problem is this - how do we judge what is a good

:24:06.:24:11.

school? I make no comment, other than to say this, when was the last

:24:12.:24:17.

time anybody heard somebody say, I'm going to send my child to that

:24:18.:24:23.

school because it's brilliant vocationally. The education at that

:24:24.:24:28.

school is absolutely brilliant. The vocational qualifications, the way

:24:29.:24:33.

they train them to skills, to be trained to be plumbers, builders,

:24:34.:24:36.

the way they take up the opportunities that my honourable

:24:37.:24:40.

friend talk about in Vauxhall. We have defence industries which are

:24:41.:24:44.

crying out for engineers to do, to repair the ships, to do all of the

:24:45.:24:48.

high technical skills and jobs there. There's thousands of

:24:49.:24:54.

vacancies. When was the last time anybody said, I'm going to send my

:24:55.:24:58.

son or daughter to that school because it is brilliant because they

:24:59.:25:03.

will end up in that first-class vocational, technical job? It

:25:04.:25:06.

doesn't happen. And that is a real challenge for us. As a Parliament, a

:25:07.:25:13.

challenge for the Government and as for us in opposition, to work with

:25:14.:25:16.

the Government to do something about that. I say these brief remarks, Mr

:25:17.:25:21.

Deputy Speaker, not as a criticism, but as a challenge to us all. I tell

:25:22.:25:32.

you what I think, I about dhully -- actually believe our country needs a

:25:33.:25:38.

national crusade with respect to technical and vocational education.

:25:39.:25:42.

It needs something which actually shakes the system up, which actually

:25:43.:25:47.

says we've got a minister now who's saying these things. We've got

:25:48.:25:52.

Shadow Ministerial educational minister saying the same. Let's

:25:53.:25:59.

challenge our country to actually make all of this talk about the

:26:00.:26:03.

importance of skills, the importance of technical education, to make that

:26:04.:26:09.

a reality. If we can do that, we would improve our economy, but more

:26:10.:26:15.

importantly, or just as importantly, we would also value the lawyers and

:26:16.:26:19.

value the doctors and all of those things which are really important,

:26:20.:26:25.

but we would actually, for the first time, in many respect, say to many

:26:26.:26:28.

families to give them once again the esteem of work and to the esteem of

:26:29.:26:34.

vocational education and our country would be better for it.

:26:35.:26:38.

Educationally we would improve. But I tell you this, in my own view, it

:26:39.:26:43.

would mean in many of our poorest communities, which it would be, but

:26:44.:26:47.

in many of our communities where equality of opportunity, with

:26:48.:26:53.

respect to education is a rhetorical myth rather than reality, would

:26:54.:26:55.

actually be able to do something about that as well.

:26:56.:26:59.

What an achievement that would be for a Parliament, let alone a

:27:00.:27:02.

Government. So I wish the minister well. I thank my colleague for his

:27:03.:27:10.

contribution and the contribution that everybody on the bill committee

:27:11.:27:15.

has made to what I think is one of the most fundamental countries --

:27:16.:27:17.

problems that our country faces. Thank you. I rise to speak on new

:27:18.:27:25.

Clause IV in technical and further education. I'm building on the words

:27:26.:27:31.

of my honourable friend from Wolverhampton and South-West. As the

:27:32.:27:34.

minister knows through our time spent together on the bill

:27:35.:27:37.

committee, this is an issue of particular interest to me. I would

:27:38.:27:44.

like to thank the minister for the courtesy what he's explaining to the

:27:45.:27:46.

department what he's doing in this area and introducing me to the

:27:47.:27:50.

careers and enterprise company and for his keen interest in improving

:27:51.:27:56.

careers education. However, after consideration, I feel that this

:27:57.:28:00.

amendment is necessary and compliments the work already under

:28:01.:28:04.

way, because while there is a lot of warm words and verbal support, to

:28:05.:28:09.

not include careers education provision in this legislation is an

:28:10.:28:13.

enormous opportunity missed. This bill is one that will shake up the

:28:14.:28:18.

technical and further educational sector considerably and accepting

:28:19.:28:22.

this new clause would show how important career planning is to this

:28:23.:28:27.

House and to this Government. During private meetings before the

:28:28.:28:31.

committee stage of this bill, real concerns were raised with me about

:28:32.:28:35.

the lack of careers provision in our colleges as it stands. It has been

:28:36.:28:39.

stressed that there is such a lack of advice available at the moment

:28:40.:28:44.

that without explicit legislation on careers guidance it will be nudged

:28:45.:28:48.

even further towards the back of the priorities queue. With overstretched

:28:49.:28:53.

resources in colleges in mind I was very disappointed to hear in at

:28:54.:28:58.

least one institution a receptionist had been asked to carry out careers

:28:59.:29:03.

guidance, having had no specialist qualifications or training. The

:29:04.:29:07.

problems regarding lack of guidance is stark and has been brought to the

:29:08.:29:11.

attention of the department by the co--chairs of the sub committee on

:29:12.:29:15.

education, skills and the economy, who in a report accused the

:29:16.:29:18.

Government of appearing to be burying their heads in the sand

:29:19.:29:24.

while careers guidance fails young people, especially those from

:29:25.:29:28.

disadvantaged backgrounds and exacerbates the country's skill gap.

:29:29.:29:33.

It seems clear that we cannot rely on warm words and reassurances

:29:34.:29:37.

alone. We must have provisions in writing. In legislation. Because we

:29:38.:29:42.

have an obligation to our learners. As we know, the world of work, young

:29:43.:29:47.

people are entering is changing really fast. The sector and

:29:48.:29:53.

apprentice start thas are learning in will have transformed eno nor

:29:54.:29:56.

mousily by the time they are in their last year. The access to

:29:57.:30:00.

guidance and advice shouldn't be left behind them when stepping into

:30:01.:30:04.

a career. It should be more agile and responsive to the skills and

:30:05.:30:08.

experience they are picking up. It is these opportunities that new

:30:09.:30:12.

Clause IV would seize. The opportunity for a strategy to be

:30:13.:30:17.

laid before this house, a strategy, specialised for further and

:30:18.:30:23.

technical education that is on-going and gives para of -- parity of

:30:24.:30:30.

esteem. Using the expertises for apprentices and technical education

:30:31.:30:34.

is a huge opportunity and an opportunity too good to miss.

:30:35.:30:43.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. My thanks to all of those who have

:30:44.:30:51.

spoken here today. I don't want to, and I thank also the minister in

:30:52.:30:57.

particular for confirming that new clause two, the implications of what

:30:58.:31:00.

we asked for in the new clause two, will be satisfied by the Government.

:31:01.:31:05.

I think that is an important concession or an important

:31:06.:31:07.

confirmation, depending on how he wishes to look at it. Whatever it

:31:08.:31:16.

is, we thank him for it. I wish Mr Deputy Speaker to withdraw new

:31:17.:31:21.

clause one, but we will, because not least in terms of the powerful

:31:22.:31:25.

speeches that my honourable friend for Gedling and others have made, it

:31:26.:31:30.

really seems to us a missed opportunity that the Government is

:31:31.:31:33.

not putting the strategy on the face of the bill. It is no disrespect to

:31:34.:31:37.

the minister and his personal policies, but we believe that needs

:31:38.:31:42.

to be embodied for the foreseeable future in the bill and on that basis

:31:43.:31:46.

we will be pressing new Clause IV to a vote.

:31:47.:31:56.

New clause one I leave withdrawn. We now come to new Clause IV to be

:31:57.:31:59.

moved formally. Formally. The question is that new clause will be

:32:00.:32:05.

read a second time. As many of that opinion say a, the contrary, no. I

:32:06.:32:10.

think we'll call that the division. Division.

:32:11.:33:18.

The question is new Clause IV be read a second time: As many of that

:33:19.:33:24.

opinion say ayes. The Ayes 186, the Noes 274. The Ayes

:33:25.:44:57.

186, the Noes 274. The Noes have it. Armlock. We know can to Amendment

:44:58.:45:06.

one which it will be convenience to consider amendments to, three, 20

:45:07.:45:13.

shadow minister to move. Thank you very much. May I wish you personally

:45:14.:45:25.

a happy new Year? We want those to turn to the part of the Bill which

:45:26.:45:30.

is extremely important and indeed is one of the reasons why this Bill is

:45:31.:45:34.

in the form that it is and I shall come onto that in a moment or two in

:45:35.:45:39.

discussing Amendment to add Amendment three. First of all I want

:45:40.:45:49.

to focus on the importance of clause 14 and the introduction, the welcome

:45:50.:45:54.

introduction, into the Bill, by the Government of the role of the

:45:55.:46:01.

education administrator. We welcome that but we want to probe in

:46:02.:46:05.

particular as we did in committee how this is going to work in

:46:06.:46:10.

practice. That is the purpose of Amendment one. It is extremely

:46:11.:46:19.

important to remember that's the end product that we are all aiming at

:46:20.:46:25.

here is to have a situation where we hope, and I believe, that the number

:46:26.:46:33.

of occasions on which the detailed insolvency provisions which are laid

:46:34.:46:36.

out in the second part of the Bill will be required, will be as few as

:46:37.:46:47.

possible. I will come on shortly to suggest why I think they are

:46:48.:46:51.

particularly necessary and some of the issues around that. But this

:46:52.:46:56.

particular Amendment would ensure that an appropriate assessment is

:46:57.:47:02.

made of any potential impact on students and their education if an

:47:03.:47:05.

education administrator puts a further education body into

:47:06.:47:10.

administration, and takes action such as transferring students to

:47:11.:47:15.

another institution, or keeps an insolvent institution open for

:47:16.:47:21.

existing students, the Amendment would also require the Secretary of

:47:22.:47:26.

State to specify suitable bodies to perform such assessments. This

:47:27.:47:35.

Amendment has been put forward very specifically at the urging of the

:47:36.:47:43.

National Society of apprentices. I think it touches on an area where I

:47:44.:47:53.

hope this minister and I have common ground, which is the importance of

:47:54.:47:58.

understanding what the end product of this new education administrator

:47:59.:48:06.

is all about, and he or she is there to provide protections and support

:48:07.:48:12.

that would not be available in the context of a traditional insolvency

:48:13.:48:18.

process. And that is extremely important in terms of the position

:48:19.:48:25.

of young people, and particularly people who might be at university,

:48:26.:48:32.

sorry, might be at college, as part of their apprenticeship, or as part

:48:33.:48:38.

of other training. One of the things that the research by the National

:48:39.:48:44.

Society of apprentices has shown, and I want to speak particularly

:48:45.:48:51.

here, to subsection three, sorry, subsection C, D and E, of Amendment

:48:52.:49:00.

to clause 14. One of the things that research shows, this was in 2014,

:49:01.:49:06.

and the figure may have gone up since then, is that apprentices pay

:49:07.:49:13.

an average of ?24 per week on travel. That equates to a quarter of

:49:14.:49:19.

the salary of an apprentice who is earning the apprentice national

:49:20.:49:23.

minimum wage and research has shown that young people were choosing to

:49:24.:49:28.

do the apprenticeships they could afford to get to rather than the

:49:29.:49:31.

apprenticeship they were keen to do in some cases. In light of the

:49:32.:49:40.

review process in England and the creation... And we have had

:49:41.:49:45.

disagreements with the Government on the review process and we will probe

:49:46.:49:49.

them strongly on it, but on this occasion this is what we are

:49:50.:49:55.

concerned with, the impact on those potential apprentices. The travel

:49:56.:49:58.

time between provider, employer and home. We believe on the size that it

:49:59.:50:08.

is important that the Institute for apprenticeships as technical

:50:09.:50:12.

education does take clear and early lead role in encouraging local

:50:13.:50:15.

authorities and transport companies to ensure that all young people

:50:16.:50:20.

including apprentices are covered by the travel concessions. Without a

:50:21.:50:24.

high-profile champion for their needs apprentices can too often be

:50:25.:50:29.

excluded from such concessions, as again apprentices -- apprenticeships

:50:30.:50:35.

are perceived as employment rather than education and are excluded from

:50:36.:50:42.

that definition. The entitlement the Bill gives students to continue,

:50:43.:50:50.

works in practice, that is the cracks. This Amendment is intended

:50:51.:50:53.

to be safeguard against an intended consequences. The education

:50:54.:51:02.

administrator will be given for options to support education if

:51:03.:51:06.

their college becomes insolvent. These, as were discussed in

:51:07.:51:09.

committee stage, includes provisions to sell assets to keep a college of

:51:10.:51:13.

thought, to bring in another body to take on different functions of the

:51:14.:51:17.

college, to transfer students to another college, and finally, and

:51:18.:51:23.

slightly ambiguously worded, to keep the college going, until existing

:51:24.:51:28.

students can finish their courses. These are all sensible options. I do

:51:29.:51:31.

not think there is anybody here who would suggest that they should not

:51:32.:51:36.

be pursued by the education administrator, should students

:51:37.:51:38.

education be put in jeopardy by insolvency.

:51:39.:51:44.

In so doing that, that is why we propose an assessment of the impact

:51:45.:51:49.

that the decision will have on students and the local community.

:51:50.:51:53.

And by this assessments, we hope that any negative impacts could be

:51:54.:51:58.

mitigated in the appropriate way. Briefly, for example, where an

:51:59.:52:01.

administrator keeps a college going for existing stuptds to finish, it

:52:02.:52:07.

would be entirely understandable and possibly probable that lecturers and

:52:08.:52:10.

staff at that college might look to leave. The involvement of an

:52:11.:52:15.

educational administrator would be a sign of a failed college and this

:52:16.:52:20.

option would mean the employer would be closing in the near future,

:52:21.:52:25.

anyway. Any exodus of staff in these circumstances could have untold

:52:26.:52:28.

impacts on the quality of education received. So we would want to know

:52:29.:52:32.

from the minister, as students would, I am sure, what transitional

:52:33.:52:36.

measures would be put in place to protect the quality of education

:52:37.:52:40.

being received in a college that was being kept open only on

:52:41.:52:44.

life-support? Or should the administrator decide to begin sells

:52:45.:52:49.

off college assets to deal with insolvency issues, what protections

:52:50.:52:55.

will there be that resources that are integral to learner services

:52:56.:52:58.

will not be sold off? Computers spring to mind.

:52:59.:53:03.

But the impact of selling them off could be to mean fewer resources to

:53:04.:53:09.

share between remaining students at the college and negatively impact on

:53:10.:53:12.

their experience. What about circumstances where there need to be

:53:13.:53:15.

transferred to another college? How close to their home and their old

:53:16.:53:21.

college will the new college be? How much more expensive to get them

:53:22.:53:24.

there? We know that college aten doughs spend a lot of money on

:53:25.:53:32.

travel. It is risking making education inaccessible for less well

:53:33.:53:39.

off. What might help them aseef education at this new education

:53:40.:53:44.

facility if it is higher? Would the college be able to cope with a new

:53:45.:53:50.

influx of students? Some find themselves forced to travel longer

:53:51.:53:53.

distances. There is no reference in this bill to how they will be

:53:54.:53:58.

compensated. As I said previously merges could be harm of the the

:53:59.:54:04.

social fabric and mobility of young people in rural and suburban areas.

:54:05.:54:08.

The implications for them to maintain their courses, which are

:54:09.:54:14.

will be significant if issues such as travel do not come into it. The

:54:15.:54:20.

commissioner when giving evidence to the bill committee said that

:54:21.:54:23.

provision at levels one and two needs to be as local as you can get

:54:24.:54:28.

it to the learners, whether in urban or a rural area. Accepting that if

:54:29.:54:33.

people don't have the money to travel they will not be able to do

:54:34.:54:41.

so. It is not clear how the Government will make the student

:54:42.:54:44.

receives in the college kept open and to a high quality standard. Bev

:54:45.:54:51.

Robinson the principal and chief executive of my own local college on

:54:52.:54:56.

Lord Sainsbury's panel said, I would wish to make sure that learning

:54:57.:55:00.

within a reasonable travel to learn pattern was protected as well as

:55:01.:55:05.

students. I see nothing, I am afraid, Mr Deputy Speakers A the

:55:06.:55:08.

moment and little has been said at the moment where the funding to

:55:09.:55:13.

support that process will come from research released in 2015 by the NUS

:55:14.:55:17.

and the association of colleges, showed that only 49% of FE students,

:55:18.:55:23.

virtually half of them, could always afford their travel costs. Travel

:55:24.:55:27.

time for those surveyed was an average of two hour and a 48 minutes

:55:28.:55:33.

a day. A distance of 11 miles. Four in ten young people were relying on

:55:34.:55:38.

financial support from parents or guardians for costs. This is

:55:39.:55:43.

exacerbated by a funding scheme. Even that minority of councils who

:55:44.:55:47.

offered discount travel to young people are unlikely to do so now,

:55:48.:55:51.

following the continuing Government cuts. This amendment would at least

:55:52.:55:56.

require that such things be considered so that appropriate

:55:57.:55:59.

measures be put in place. Will my friend give way? He's much more

:56:00.:56:06.

familiar with the bill than I am. In terms of the clarity he seeks to

:56:07.:56:10.

introduce on the face of this bill, does he share my concern, perhaps he

:56:11.:56:13.

doesn't because he knows the bill better, but I cannot see what an

:56:14.:56:18.

educational administrator is. I know he or she will be an officer of the

:56:19.:56:23.

court and they will carry out certain functions, but we are

:56:24.:56:28.

talking about the technical and Further Education Bill, training

:56:29.:56:31.

essential -- is central to what we are talking about. I cannot see on

:56:32.:56:34.

the face of the bill anything that says there has to be a certain

:56:35.:56:39.

education for an administrator. It is a bit fuzzy. My honourable

:56:40.:56:44.

friend, as usual, is per acceptive. If we had the time and if it was

:56:45.:56:49.

within the scope of this particular amendment I would acquaint him with

:56:50.:56:53.

the passages of the committee where we discussed this at some length. I

:56:54.:56:59.

think although we have not moved more specific amendments in that

:57:00.:57:02.

area I think the minister and again I think this is obviously something

:57:03.:57:05.

for another place, needs to respect further as to what needs, if

:57:06.:57:09.

anything needs further to be put on the face of the bill, to answer the

:57:10.:57:13.

sort of questions that my honourable friend is asking. But they are

:57:14.:57:16.

perfectly legitimate and really important questions. And as I say,

:57:17.:57:21.

ones that we did consider in the bill committee. So, there are a

:57:22.:57:27.

number of effects to the implications these administrator

:57:28.:57:29.

powers may have on students. That is precisely the point of the amendment

:57:30.:57:33.

and to ensure that whatever impacts these powers have in practise, our

:57:34.:57:37.

are assessed within the local circumstances of the colleges in

:57:38.:57:40.

which those amendments are needed. I want to now turn to amendment two.

:57:41.:57:50.

And this I hope would be an amendment that the minister would

:57:51.:57:53.

have sympathy with. Again if he's not happy with the structure of it

:57:54.:57:57.

then perhaps that can be juggled with. This amendment would give the

:57:58.:58:04.

court the power to suspend office for student, student protection

:58:05.:58:08.

action for the period of insolvency in which the educational

:58:09.:58:13.

administrator has responsibility for responsible for an FE body. This is

:58:14.:58:17.

a clause, sorry, this is an amendment which the association of

:58:18.:58:22.

colleges are particularly keen to see addressed. They are concerned

:58:23.:58:30.

that the insolvency regime is being introduced at the same time, as a

:58:31.:58:35.

separate protection regime takes place in higher education under the

:58:36.:58:38.

control of a new office for students, which of course, Mr Deputy

:58:39.:58:43.

Speaker, has been entering committee stage in the other place only today.

:58:44.:58:48.

They believe and I think we have some sympathy with this, the

:58:49.:58:51.

Government has missed an opportunity to introduce a joint legal regime,

:58:52.:58:56.

covering both further and higher education corporations. However, we

:58:57.:59:02.

are where we are, and that is the basis on which this proposal is put

:59:03.:59:10.

tonight. This would mean that an amendment is needed to the TFE bill

:59:11.:59:17.

to remove duplication between the HE intervention regime and the FE

:59:18.:59:21.

regime because otherwise colleges and again I feel strongly about this

:59:22.:59:25.

because it particularly affects my own local college, that colleges

:59:26.:59:29.

that want to maintain or develop their HE provision, which is an

:59:30.:59:34.

important part of the system, and which involves up to 150,000

:59:35.:59:39.

students. 1,000 of whom are at Blackpool college. As it stands we

:59:40.:59:44.

have two Government bills, creating two separate control systems, with

:59:45.:59:49.

two sets of obligations on colleges. Ministers will say social education

:59:50.:59:54.

and the powers will only be used in exceptional cases and eve eve

:59:55.:59:57.

theably colleges will have to prepare for the worst. If they have

:59:58.:00:02.

higher education provision will need to boil a plate to double insulate

:00:03.:00:07.

their finances to satisfy the organises they deal with. This could

:00:08.:00:10.

make it more expensive to run HE provision than it needs to be. This

:00:11.:00:15.

is the purpose of this amendment to conif firm the OFS regime will be

:00:16.:00:18.

suspended during a special administration and I would like to

:00:19.:00:23.

speak briefly to amendment three. Amendment three is talking

:00:24.:00:28.

particularly about the need to ensure that staff are employed by an

:00:29.:00:35.

FE college are continued to acure statutory teacher pension seem and

:00:36.:00:41.

-- scheme and local pension scheme obligations during the

:00:42.:00:44.

administration. This is an issue which has not simply been raised by

:00:45.:00:48.

the association of colleges but also by UCU. Mr Deputy Speaker, colleges

:00:49.:00:53.

employ large numbers of staff and not all of them are teachers. In

:00:54.:00:57.

addition to caretakers. Catering staff and cleaners. They employ

:00:58.:01:03.

learning support assistance, IT technicians, administrators and the

:01:04.:01:07.

like. We made a particular point at second reading of emphasising that

:01:08.:01:11.

just as with universities it's not simply the teachers and the

:01:12.:01:14.

administrators and the bureaucrats. It is everybody who keeps that

:01:15.:01:19.

institution going. So, it is the case with FE colleges. And we would

:01:20.:01:25.

be appalled if, as a result of any of these issues, people had their

:01:26.:01:31.

pension rights or their pension, their potential pension rights

:01:32.:01:36.

affected in this way. So, in all, we believe that there

:01:37.:01:40.

are more than 70,000 people in colleges who are not teachers and

:01:41.:01:45.

who are eible in law to member of a Local Government Pension Scheme.

:01:46.:01:48.

There is some evidence the bill has raised concern among those running

:01:49.:01:51.

Local Government Pension Schemes and it is resulting in additional

:01:52.:01:55.

financial demands on colleges. We don't think it is the Government's

:01:56.:02:01.

intention to renege on debt, because it would simply pass on the koths to

:02:02.:02:07.

other employers, including councils themselves. Colleges have no choice

:02:08.:02:11.

about whether to offer membership. They provide access to decent

:02:12.:02:15.

pensions for 70,000 people. And the purpose of this amendment is simply

:02:16.:02:20.

to clarify that staff employed by an FE college continue to acure those

:02:21.:02:24.

obligations and Government will ensure that any additional debt will

:02:25.:02:33.

be covered. That would ensure that statutory obligations are suspended

:02:34.:02:37.

but employed staff can continue to acure entitlements but does not

:02:38.:02:41.

result in penalty interest, which are written into TPS and LPS rules

:02:42.:02:47.

once they recommence. In case the minister thinks this is only a

:02:48.:02:52.

hypothetical issue, it is worth making the point and UCU have made

:02:53.:02:56.

the point, that there are already real concerns about pension scheme

:02:57.:03:00.

deficits in certain colleges and that the regulations, if this issues

:03:01.:03:04.

are not addressed, could cause alarm with end lenders and raise interest

:03:05.:03:08.

rates and this of course would negate, or could negate, the stated

:03:09.:03:13.

aim for the introduction of insolvency regulations. And that of

:03:14.:03:22.

course would preclude the increased confidence in the insolvency

:03:23.:03:24.

scenario of the Government and we are very keen to see. Will my friend

:03:25.:03:30.

give way? Very briefly. The minister is well aware of this scenario

:03:31.:03:36.

because the City of Wolverhampton college has a big pension problem. I

:03:37.:03:40.

have discussed wit the minister and he's been extremely helpful in

:03:41.:03:44.

trying to resolve thatfy man shall issue faced by -- that financial

:03:45.:03:49.

issue faced by my local college. I am grateful for my friend for that

:03:50.:03:55.

intervention. Because of course he's immediately provided a specific

:03:56.:03:58.

example of precisely the issue which has led us to bring this amendment

:03:59.:04:04.

forward tonight. I now need to move, Mr Deputy Speaker, to our final

:04:05.:04:08.

amendment on the bill, and the one in which we will be pressing, which

:04:09.:04:13.

we will be pressing to a vote. And this is an amendment which would

:04:14.:04:17.

ensure that further education bodies, with a track record of

:04:18.:04:23.

acuing assets publicly could not be transferred to a profit private

:04:24.:04:29.

company. Mr Deputy Speaker, we had a significant discussion about this in

:04:30.:04:34.

committee. And for the benefit of those who were not in committee, I

:04:35.:04:39.

will try to and for the benefit of those who were in committee, I will

:04:40.:04:42.

try to summarise as briefly as possible. It is the principal is

:04:43.:04:50.

extraordinary important. On our side of the committee it raidses the

:04:51.:04:54.

current situation with this bill raises some real significant issues

:04:55.:04:57.

about what would happen to the transfer of assets. The information

:04:58.:05:03.

says that assets should only be transferred to charitable bodies. It

:05:04.:05:07.

is on that point that I want to focus my remarks wrsmt the bodies

:05:08.:05:12.

are not charities, then it must be transferred in accord dance with the

:05:13.:05:16.

charitable purpose of the trust. It leads to a list of bodies to which

:05:17.:05:21.

assets could be transferred including sixth form colleges and

:05:22.:05:25.

Governing bodies. Expected or transfers should be made to bodies,

:05:26.:05:29.

but that is not the same as saying it is required. When colleges were

:05:30.:05:36.

incorporated in 1992, it took them formally outside of the local

:05:37.:05:39.

authorities and my honourable friend, the member for Luton North,

:05:40.:05:44.

was very eloquent in this in committee, but we have to take into

:05:45.:05:47.

account the asset base of building in many cases was build up with

:05:48.:05:52.

local authorities support and funding over 20 or 30 year-period. I

:05:53.:05:57.

reminded the minister on committee about my own college which he has

:05:58.:06:03.

visited. He went to one of the campuses, which has buildings and

:06:04.:06:07.

elements that go right back to the 1950s and the 1960s. We didn't, when

:06:08.:06:13.

the building colleges for the future process took place in 2000, we did

:06:14.:06:18.

not get the new college that we hoped we would get for a variety of

:06:19.:06:23.

reasons as to where we were in the food chain, but nevertheless, I am

:06:24.:06:26.

illustrating the point that many of the buildings we are talking about

:06:27.:06:34.

have acured their estate either on a financial by sis... Will my

:06:35.:06:37.

honourable friend give way? Yes. I will.

:06:38.:06:45.

Would he agree that this is an issue in higher value areas, whether this

:06:46.:06:53.

is public land that should be used for the common good? I thank my

:06:54.:07:01.

friend for that intervention. She has a double qualification to speak

:07:02.:07:05.

on it, first of all as a member of Parliament for the constituency that

:07:06.:07:11.

she represents, but also she knows whereof she speaks. This issue is

:07:12.:07:23.

accentuated in those sorts of areas. Money has come in over the years,

:07:24.:07:33.

both pre-1982, the Labour Government introduced into thousands, money put

:07:34.:07:39.

in by regional development agencies, Regional Growth Fund developments,

:07:40.:07:44.

offshoots of regional and structural funding and as I have previously

:07:45.:07:49.

said further education colleges also deliver higher education. If we have

:07:50.:08:02.

a situation where HE provision is being delivered at a rate of 10%,

:08:03.:08:10.

12%, it is important that we do not lose that situation in this

:08:11.:08:14.

position. I do not want to rehearse at, we have not got time to rehearse

:08:15.:08:18.

tonight, the arguments that were made in 2011, about the private

:08:19.:08:25.

sector, private for-profit sector training coming in and being

:08:26.:08:30.

involved with the equity funds, whose investment platforms were

:08:31.:08:38.

focused. But I would say, and I think many in the sector would also

:08:39.:08:43.

say, that the private equity funding sector, although it can be extremely

:08:44.:08:48.

profitable and useful, is based on a relatively short-term view of

:08:49.:08:53.

providing management and initial capital to buy other companies and

:08:54.:08:55.

then taking them off the public share market and it is reasonable

:08:56.:09:01.

for us to be concerned about what might happen in terms of disposal of

:09:02.:09:06.

land with significant amounts of public assets. It is not simply

:09:07.:09:11.

whether it is a good thing to transfer significant number of

:09:12.:09:15.

public sector assets to eight private provider, but what the

:09:16.:09:19.

guarantees are both financially, and more importantly in terms of the

:09:20.:09:22.

nature of the body and the guarantees to the students, and

:09:23.:09:27.

people employed there, if such organisations use the insolvency to

:09:28.:09:30.

take on colleges. Ministers we talk about guarantees for staff but I'm

:09:31.:09:36.

sure members will realise this does not offer protection forever and a

:09:37.:09:42.

day and I have significant experience of this in my own

:09:43.:09:46.

constituency in Blackpool over the years with people who have been

:09:47.:09:50.

outsourced from the Civil Service and put them to other organisations

:09:51.:09:54.

which are then passed on to someone else at which point automatic rights

:09:55.:09:57.

and security of tenure almost became extinguished. These are the concerns

:09:58.:10:05.

that we have. They are not concerns that are irrelevant. They are

:10:06.:10:12.

concerns that are pragmatic and concerns of principle, and of course

:10:13.:10:16.

it is not as if there has not been concerns in this area previously.

:10:17.:10:20.

The December 2014 the Public Accounts Committee severely quizzed

:10:21.:10:25.

officials who had responsibility about why private providers were

:10:26.:10:33.

able to engage in an trammelled expansion without checks. And it was

:10:34.:10:41.

said that repeatedly advice about vast sums of money going without due

:10:42.:10:52.

process had been ignored. And the potential, as the former chief

:10:53.:10:54.

executive of the Association of colleges said, for private

:10:55.:10:59.

organisations to strip college buildings and facilities or pick

:11:00.:11:05.

assets, is there. For the avoidance of doubt we are not saying we would

:11:06.:11:09.

oppose any private sector takeover of a college in any circumstances,

:11:10.:11:13.

we are seeing the education administrator would have to make a

:11:14.:11:16.

judgment, but we are seeing without the protection of this clause, the

:11:17.:11:21.

potential for it would be very high, that is why we are determined to

:11:22.:11:31.

press this Amendment this evening. Thank you. I thank the honourable

:11:32.:11:37.

gentleman for his amendments. I begin by discussing Amendment one

:11:38.:11:40.

which affects clause 14 and I have to stress that is unlikely, in the

:11:41.:11:48.

unlikely event that there is insolvency, we want to ensure that

:11:49.:11:53.

disruption for students is minimised. According to the clause

:11:54.:12:01.

in the Bill, they are likely to come from bigger companies and have

:12:02.:12:07.

educational experience, and saw the same system that happens with

:12:08.:12:16.

insolvent companies. The education minister will decide how best it

:12:17.:12:19.

will be achieved. The subsection suggests ways in which this might be

:12:20.:12:26.

done. The education administrator will need to consider specific

:12:27.:12:30.

circumstances of insolvency and determine the most appropriate

:12:31.:12:35.

approach. It is inconceivable that the education administrator would

:12:36.:12:39.

draw up proposals without having had discussions with a wide range of

:12:40.:12:44.

stakeholders such as the commissioner, student bodies and

:12:45.:12:47.

others, and considering a wide range of issues. This will lead to

:12:48.:12:53.

discussions with local authorities and key stakeholders and where

:12:54.:12:58.

appropriate it may also involve a conversation with the clear levers

:12:59.:13:08.

personal adviser. I undertook to consider the matter further. I hope

:13:09.:13:13.

the honourable gentleman from Luton will be pleased that we are keeping

:13:14.:13:18.

our promise in committee and will ensure that guidance to local

:13:19.:13:24.

authority on responsibilities being introduced with the children and

:13:25.:13:31.

social care act, in the event of a college insolvency affecting a young

:13:32.:13:34.

person for whom they are responsible. We expect that the

:13:35.:13:38.

education administrator takes account of the quality of

:13:39.:13:45.

alternative provisions and if it is necessary for students to complete

:13:46.:13:48.

their studies and other locations that they consider the impact of

:13:49.:13:51.

travel distances. The honourable gentleman will be aware that he

:13:52.:13:56.

provide funding to colleges to support disadvantaged young people

:13:57.:14:00.

in addition to disadvantaged funding, some 550 million in 2016,

:14:01.:14:07.

that can be used to subsidise college busses, there is also the

:14:08.:14:14.

bursary fund, colleges will be able to offer this funding to eligible

:14:15.:14:19.

students who transfer under a special administrative arrangement.

:14:20.:14:25.

There may be scope for a scheme to be set up to cover additional travel

:14:26.:14:29.

costs if they have to travel to another location. The honourable

:14:30.:14:36.

gentleman for Blackpool said during committee we do not want this to

:14:37.:14:40.

become a long winded and time-consuming process. I share that

:14:41.:14:44.

view with them, it is in the interests of students and staff to

:14:45.:14:49.

have certainty as soon as possible. Requiring formal assessments to be

:14:50.:14:52.

carried out in a way proposed by the Amendment would lengthen the

:14:53.:14:58.

process, reduce the administrator's distress and -- reduce the

:14:59.:15:09.

administrator's discretion. I have shown these are at the front of the

:15:10.:15:16.

administrator's Maine. The next Amendment, Amendment to, I

:15:17.:15:19.

understand the issue about double protection. I understand why he has

:15:20.:15:26.

tabled the Amendment. The Amendments are necessary because the court on

:15:27.:15:31.

healing and education administration application already has discretion

:15:32.:15:35.

to make any interim order, that it thinks is appropriate. It is

:15:36.:15:40.

necessary with relation to the student protection plan and the

:15:41.:15:43.

court has the power to do this under the Bill. In terms of the pensions

:15:44.:15:48.

we have followed as far as possible the provisions of the administration

:15:49.:15:53.

regime that exists for company insolvencies. We propose to adopt

:15:54.:15:57.

similar provisions for college insolvency is, which will be very

:15:58.:16:03.

rare indeed. As with any administration once the

:16:04.:16:08.

administrator has adopted contract of staff they are personally liable

:16:09.:16:12.

for the costs of those individuals such as salary and pension

:16:13.:16:16.

contributions. He would only take on the appointment if they are

:16:17.:16:18.

confident sufficient funds are available to meet the costs. Some

:16:19.:16:24.

pension contributions will continue to be made and benefits accrue. Some

:16:25.:16:27.

staff may be made redundant, whether at the start of the education

:16:28.:16:33.

administration, but this will be in accordance with statutory employment

:16:34.:16:39.

rights. Those staff's contribution to the pension fund will end the are

:16:40.:16:44.

no longer employed but this is no difference to any other person

:16:45.:16:48.

contributing to a pension scheme, but the benefits accrued prior to

:16:49.:16:54.

the of employment will not be lost. In terms of the transfer issue, I

:16:55.:16:58.

accept that the honourable gentleman feels very strongly about this.

:16:59.:17:04.

Further education colleges are statutory organisations who can deal

:17:05.:17:09.

with their own assets. A solvent college is key to transfer property

:17:10.:17:14.

to any person or organisation they choose. In order to benefit from it

:17:15.:17:18.

they would expect to receive value when transferring an asset to a

:17:19.:17:21.

third party and in general this would mean transferring at market

:17:22.:17:27.

value, although this deserves -- depends on the nature of the

:17:28.:17:31.

transaction. In this case we are only talking where a college is

:17:32.:17:35.

insolvent, an extreme case. What I need to make clear to the honourable

:17:36.:17:40.

gentleman is that there are four vital protections to safeguard

:17:41.:17:44.

assets which may well have been paid for with money from the public purse

:17:45.:17:48.

that have to be dealt with because the college is insolvent. First, and

:17:49.:17:53.

Mike solvent operational colleges who wish to transfer property, if

:17:54.:17:57.

the administrator decides, they are restricted and who they can transfer

:17:58.:18:03.

assets to. This is prescribed in secondary legislation, 27 B, higher

:18:04.:18:11.

education act. In addition, transfers can be made by companies,

:18:12.:18:16.

the company must be established for purposes which includes provision of

:18:17.:18:20.

educational facilities. Just as with any other administrator, any chance

:18:21.:18:27.

there must be with the purpose of achieving special objective and

:18:28.:18:32.

minimum disruption. Creditors have a general right to challenge should

:18:33.:18:34.

they consider the education administrator is selling on the

:18:35.:18:43.

cheap for example. Finally the Secretary of State Orwell Welsh must

:18:44.:18:45.

must approve the proposed transfer scheme, any approval will include

:18:46.:18:54.

the purposes of special objective. This quadruple lock answers the

:18:55.:19:04.

concerns, I believe. I hope my responses have a shoot him and the

:19:05.:19:17.

House about underlying concerns -- I hope my responses have assured him

:19:18.:19:20.

and the House. Thank you. I have taken note of his

:19:21.:19:28.

views and the proposals he has made. It does seem to me, however, and on

:19:29.:19:34.

that basis, we are prepared to withdraw Amendment one, on Amendment

:19:35.:19:46.

to an Amendment three, I again have heard the reassurance that he has

:19:47.:19:50.

given. I think that when this legislation reaches the other place

:19:51.:19:56.

there needs to be further examination of the issues around the

:19:57.:20:01.

pension schemes. These are important issues. I am not entirely convinced

:20:02.:20:06.

that the assurances which I should have been made in good faith will

:20:07.:20:10.

actually do the business. As regards amendments 22, I thank the Minister

:20:11.:20:19.

for his explanation about what he described as the quadruple lock, but

:20:20.:20:24.

I am afraid, not least because of past practice, we have to plan in

:20:25.:20:29.

this Bill not for the best circumstances but for the worse. It

:20:30.:20:35.

is an important issue of public policy and on that basis we do wish

:20:36.:20:43.

to press amendments 22 to the vote. Is it your pleasure that Amendment

:20:44.:20:56.

one be withdrawn? Aye. Amendments 20 to be made, As many of that opinion

:20:57.:21:01.

say Aye. . Division. Clear that lobbies.

:21:02.:22:03.

Amendment be of made, to the contrary ayes... And for the nose is

:22:04.:22:12.

Mark Spencer and Graham Stuart. Order! The ayes to the right 183.

:22:13.:32:49.

The Noes to the left, 278. The ayes to the right, 183. The Noes

:32:50.:32:55.

to the left, 278. The Noes have it, the Noes have it. Unlock.

:32:56.:33:03.

Order! Under the order of the House, 14th November, 2016, I must put the

:33:04.:33:07.

question necessary to bring conclusion to the proceedings.

:33:08.:33:13.

Consideration has been completed. I will now suspend the House for more,

:33:14.:33:18.

no more than five minutes in order toation a decision about this. The

:33:19.:33:22.

division bells will be rung two minutes before the House resumes.

:33:23.:33:28.

The Government will be tabling the appropriate consent movement, copies

:33:29.:33:31.

of which will be shortly available in the vault office and will be

:33:32.:33:34.

distributed by the door keepers. Thank you.

:33:35.:37:49.

Order. I can inform the House of my decision. The purpose of standing

:37:50.:38:03.

order 83, I have certified that clause to - 38, and schedules 2-4,

:38:04.:38:10.

to the -- to the Technical and Further Education Bill, relating

:38:11.:38:13.

exclusively to England and Wales, and I have certified that clause one

:38:14.:38:21.

and Schedule one of the Technical and Further Education Bill is

:38:22.:38:24.

relating exclusively to England and within devolved legislation

:38:25.:38:28.

competence. Copies of my certificates are available in the

:38:29.:38:33.

vote office. Understanding order 83 consent motions are required for the

:38:34.:38:38.

Bill to proceed, does the Minister intend to move consent motions? No,

:38:39.:38:46.

it'll have to come after we have gone through. Standing order 83,

:38:47.:38:52.

will resolve itself into legislation of the grand committee and therefore

:38:53.:38:59.

into legislative committee. Order. It comes afterwards. We are going to

:39:00.:39:00.

go through this. Order. I remind honourable members

:39:01.:39:25.

that if there are divisions only members representing constituencies

:39:26.:39:28.

in England and Wales may vote on the consent motion for England and Wales

:39:29.:39:31.

and only those visiting constituencies in England may vote

:39:32.:39:40.

on goals for England. I call the Minister to move the consent motion

:39:41.:39:46.

for England and Wales only. The question is that the legislation

:39:47.:39:50.

grand committee of England and Wales consents to clause 2-38 of, and

:39:51.:39:55.

schedules 2-4, of the Technical and Further Education Bill. As many as

:39:56.:40:11.

are of the opinion say Aye. Aye. The contrary No.. The Ayes habit. The

:40:12.:40:22.

legislative can't committee consents to clause one of and Schedule one to

:40:23.:40:27.

the Technical and Further Education Bill, As many as are of the opinion

:40:28.:40:35.

say Aye. The contrary, No.. The Ayes habit. -- have it. I beg to report

:40:36.:41:01.

that the legislative gland... Order. I beg to report that the legislative

:41:02.:41:06.

grand committee in England and Wales has consented to clause is 2-38, and

:41:07.:41:12.

schedules 2-4, of Technical and Further Education Bill. The

:41:13.:41:17.

legislative grand committee England has consented to clause one of and

:41:18.:41:22.

Schedule one of Technical and Further Education Bill. Point of

:41:23.:41:30.

order. Thank you. I am sure the House was entertained by that fast

:41:31.:41:34.

that we just witnessed, but I hope that you link that adjournment you

:41:35.:41:39.

had the opportunity to take advantage of the facilities, get

:41:40.:41:42.

yourself a nice cup of tea, because it was a pointless waste of time.

:41:43.:41:47.

Because of the way this motion has been designed and the lack of time

:41:48.:41:51.

available it has not been possible to adjourn to the legislative grand

:41:52.:41:57.

committee to consider these important measures. Given that

:41:58.:42:00.

English votes for English laws is supposed to be paramount, as it's

:42:01.:42:04.

not disappointing that English members have not had the opportunity

:42:05.:42:13.

to lend the English... Order. It is not a point of order. The debate

:42:14.:42:16.

took place because we thought it was important to have a special debate

:42:17.:42:22.

on health as well. The House agreed to the rules of the House, the rules

:42:23.:42:27.

have now been applied. Thank you for raising the point of order. It is on

:42:28.:42:32.

the record. The bottom line is, this is what the House has chosen, that

:42:33.:42:39.

is the end of that. Right. Third reading. Time for a cup of tea.

:42:40.:42:48.

Order. If you have got a problem do it through the usual channels and

:42:49.:42:51.

the proper channels, it was not a point of order, you know it, that is

:42:52.:42:56.

why you raised it. The bottom line, if you do not like it, let the House

:42:57.:43:03.

get on with the business. Minister to move third reading. Thank you. I

:43:04.:43:11.

beg to move that the Bill now be read a third time. I want to give

:43:12.:43:16.

special thanks to all the individuals who shared their time

:43:17.:43:19.

and knowledge during the passage of the Bill through the House, the

:43:20.:43:25.

officials who worked so hard to bring it to parliament, and those

:43:26.:43:28.

providing written and oral evidence, and they want to thank members of

:43:29.:43:34.

the committee for the diligent approach and consideration of the

:43:35.:43:37.

practical applications of the Bill, and to those members who have

:43:38.:43:44.

spoken. I am clear about the priorities that we want to see in

:43:45.:43:49.

apprenticeships, further education and skills, creating a ladder of

:43:50.:43:53.

opportunity for all, a transformation of prestige and

:43:54.:43:56.

culture, widespread high-quality provision, a system that addresses

:43:57.:44:02.

our skills needs, job security, social justice, prosperity. This

:44:03.:44:06.

Bill seeks to build those priorities and to our system, bringing to life

:44:07.:44:13.

the reforms needed to ensure that we have a skills, education sector that

:44:14.:44:19.

rivals the best in the world. For too long technical education has

:44:20.:44:23.

been overly complex, overlooked, and values. Putting employers at the

:44:24.:44:30.

heart of these changes, and as recommended by Lord Sainsbury's

:44:31.:44:35.

independent report, we can provide a clear route to employment for our

:44:36.:44:39.

young people. The changes in this Bill will support the achievements

:44:40.:44:44.

of those young people, from difficult backgrounds, such as those

:44:45.:44:46.

with special educational needs or disability, and referring to what

:44:47.:44:52.

the honourable friend for Swindon said earlier, we are doing a lot to

:44:53.:45:01.

implement. We are doing a lot to help apprentices with mental health

:45:02.:45:08.

difficulties and apprentices with severe hearing problems will be able

:45:09.:45:19.

to do sign language. 23% of those who access technical education which

:45:20.:45:25.

will have some form of special educational needs, compared to 7% of

:45:26.:45:32.

those taking level three, these measures in this Bill will drive up

:45:33.:45:37.

the productivity in our country, turning us into an apprenticeship

:45:38.:45:41.

nation providing the skills we need for our country to thrive. That is

:45:42.:45:47.

why the CBI has said that businesses have long wanted a vocational route

:45:48.:45:54.

so this is a step forward. Thank you for giving way. I thank him for the

:45:55.:45:59.

work he has been doing taking forward this Bill. I commend him.

:46:00.:46:04.

Does he agree that one of the most important factors is engaging

:46:05.:46:08.

businesses in these apprenticeships and making the routes to skills more

:46:09.:46:13.

relevant for business. It will not only address productivity

:46:14.:46:15.

challenges, but improved life chances of the people involved. My

:46:16.:46:20.

honourable friend, and I thank you for his work on the committee, is

:46:21.:46:25.

correct. That is widely introduced the apprentice levy, to change

:46:26.:46:30.

behaviours, to get businesses involved in supporting

:46:31.:46:33.

apprenticeships. That is we created the panels. That is why we are

:46:34.:46:37.

putting and financial incentives to businesses and particularly small

:46:38.:46:42.

businesses, to ensure that they higher apprentices. This Bill also

:46:43.:46:50.

introduces an insolvency regime for the further education sector that

:46:51.:46:54.

will end that unlikely events provide protection for learners to

:46:55.:46:57.

minimise as far as possible disruption to their studies. And

:46:58.:47:05.

offering certainty to creditors. We heard from those who supported the

:47:06.:47:09.

insolvency regime and the protections it includes for

:47:10.:47:13.

learners. While there were issues, many spoke in favour of the clarity.

:47:14.:47:23.

One company said they are keen to lend more into the sector. On

:47:24.:47:34.

insolvency he will remember in committee I suggested that all

:47:35.:47:38.

colleges should have both within management and governorship, members

:47:39.:47:43.

with financial skills, professionally qualified, so that at

:47:44.:47:50.

least we have skilled eyes looking at finances so that the stakes are

:47:51.:47:57.

not made internally. I accept the premise of the question. I would not

:47:58.:48:01.

want to put a straitjacket on the colleges. It was acknowledged by the

:48:02.:48:09.

principal of a college that you may need different things for different

:48:10.:48:13.

colleges but this should be as much financial expertise as possible,

:48:14.:48:17.

where there is real financial leadership, those colleges are

:48:18.:48:23.

always in good financial health. We forecast that we will have spent a

:48:24.:48:28.

total of 140 million propping up colleges facing extreme financial

:48:29.:48:32.

difficulties by March 2000 17. That's money that should have been

:48:33.:48:36.

spent on education and training priorities. Whilst we envisage that

:48:37.:48:41.

only a small number of colleges will find themselves insolvent, providing

:48:42.:48:44.

protection from learners and clarity from creditors is a crucial part of

:48:45.:48:50.

what we are trying to do, and our responsibility to support the

:48:51.:48:55.

sector. Since the committee we have been in a position to publish the

:48:56.:49:02.

consultation. Following conversations about the importance

:49:03.:49:04.

of incorporating the views of students in the running of the

:49:05.:49:09.

institute, it comes as no surprise that this sets out the firm

:49:10.:49:12.

expectation that the institute will establish an apprentice panel, by

:49:13.:49:18.

April this year, reporting directly to the board, ensuring that the

:49:19.:49:21.

learner voice, the apprentice voice, is that the heart of the Institute.

:49:22.:49:25.

I am glad that the honourable gentleman is encouraged by our

:49:26.:49:32.

approach on this. Before the Institute is operational in April we

:49:33.:49:37.

want to publish the consultation for the Institute shall set out more

:49:38.:49:42.

detail about how it intends to carry out its functions. On the insolvency

:49:43.:49:46.

elements of the Bill we discussed and committee the protections given

:49:47.:49:50.

to students with a special objective and the possible ways the education

:49:51.:49:54.

administrator could ensure that disruption to studies is avoided or

:49:55.:49:58.

minimised. In particular we discussed whether the particular

:49:59.:50:02.

account the administrator must have should be extended to other groups.

:50:03.:50:09.

I recognise the importance of taking into account the needs of Kier

:50:10.:50:13.

leaders and that they may need additional Pastoral support should

:50:14.:50:20.

the college ever be subject to insolvency. Such support is best

:50:21.:50:26.

provided to each individual by the local authority, should an

:50:27.:50:28.

insolvency occur and we will take these steps, to ensure that the

:50:29.:50:34.

guidance we produce for local authorities on their corporate

:50:35.:50:39.

parenting responsibilities include advice in the event that the young

:50:40.:50:44.

person they are responsible for attend colleges that enter

:50:45.:50:50.

educational administration. There is much to be proud of about our

:50:51.:50:56.

current further education. 71% of these colleges are good too

:50:57.:51:01.

outstanding. More than 50% are in good financial health. The

:51:02.:51:05.

proportion of 16 - 18-year-olds taking up apprenticeships is at a

:51:06.:51:11.

record high. Reforms made following the 2011 review. 88% of students

:51:12.:51:19.

were in a sustained education destination. High-quality further

:51:20.:51:27.

education can have a transformative impact on young people. That is why

:51:28.:51:32.

we have announced as part of the Spending Review to protect 16-19

:51:33.:51:37.

national base rate of ?4000 per student for the generation of this

:51:38.:51:42.

Parliament and by 2020 if we include the adult education budget, the 19

:51:43.:51:46.

plus apprenticeship and, more funding will be available to support

:51:47.:51:50.

adults further education participation than at any time in

:51:51.:51:51.

England's history. This will build on the key

:51:52.:52:02.

priorities, enabling students to make better decisions about their

:52:03.:52:06.

future to secure their future prosperity that of our nation. In my

:52:07.:52:16.

constituency, we are very fortunate in having a sixth form college which

:52:17.:52:20.

has been short listed in the six best colleges in the country for the

:52:21.:52:26.

times award. The one apprenticeship courses but there are concerns they

:52:27.:52:29.

cannot get enough students to apply for some of the business admin

:52:30.:52:34.

courses, and there is a real demand from business but those students yet

:52:35.:52:38.

there are loads of apprenticeships doing courses were business does not

:52:39.:52:42.

happen as jobs for them. Would he agree with me that provisions in

:52:43.:52:48.

this bill to develop that synergy between education, apprenticeships

:52:49.:52:53.

and business are welcome and are absolutely vital in addressing the

:52:54.:52:59.

school shortage in this country? I thank my honourable friend for that.

:53:00.:53:04.

She is absolutely right. Everything we are doing, this bill, the

:53:05.:53:13.

apprentice Levy, the drive up of standards, the encouragement of

:53:14.:53:16.

apprenticeships, the money, 2.5 billion doubled by 2020, they are

:53:17.:53:21.

designed to do exactly that and solve the problems she has talked

:53:22.:53:31.

about. Mr Speaker, the OECD has said the UK has a promising plan to

:53:32.:53:34.

advanced technical education from a last resort to a first choice.

:53:35.:53:40.

Colleges have also spoken highly of the plan, including the principle of

:53:41.:53:45.

my own college, Harlow. She said, we're not just about courses but

:53:46.:53:50.

grit. We believe any reform that brings us closer to employees mean

:53:51.:53:53.

our students gain higher skills and better jobs. This bill is a once

:53:54.:54:01.

your bill. It does what it says on the tin. It transformed the prestige

:54:02.:54:07.

and quality of apprentices, addresses the skills deficit,

:54:08.:54:11.

protect students in the event the colleges face extreme financial

:54:12.:54:14.

difficulty and ensures the most disadvantaged are able to climb the

:54:15.:54:18.

ladder of opportunity. The bill understands the Prime Minister's

:54:19.:54:22.

commitment to a country that works for everyone and I commend the bill

:54:23.:54:26.

to the House. The question is that the bill now be read at the time.

:54:27.:54:33.

Can I associate myself with the comments that the Minister made,

:54:34.:54:40.

giving thanks to the officials, all the members of the committee? And

:54:41.:54:45.

particularly my own colleagues on our side, who did sterling work in

:54:46.:54:51.

supporting us on the front bench. Can I also particularly commend the

:54:52.:54:54.

support that the public bill committee have given to us? You will

:54:55.:55:01.

know the role of the opposition in challenging government on these

:55:02.:55:05.

matters is somehow equivalent to that of David and Goliath. We

:55:06.:55:11.

occasionally get a few slingshots in. I am grateful that the

:55:12.:55:16.

slingshots on this occasion had not incapacitated the minister

:55:17.:55:18.

concerned. This is an important bill. It has important provisions in

:55:19.:55:25.

it, and that is why we have not opposed it, either at second or

:55:26.:55:29.

third reading tonight. However, that does not mean to say that we will

:55:30.:55:33.

not continue to have profound concerns about the implementation

:55:34.:55:39.

and process and progress of that. It was indicative in the excellent

:55:40.:55:43.

although relatively truncated debate that we had on the amendments,

:55:44.:55:48.

whether we're talking about the contributions from my honourable

:55:49.:55:54.

friends. My honourable friend is still here. Might honourable friend

:55:55.:56:04.

who gave an inspiring speech and my honourable and relatively new front

:56:05.:56:10.

of the House, all of them are talking about practical issues in

:56:11.:56:15.

terms of implementation. It is practical issues of implementation

:56:16.:56:18.

that we still have real concerns about. It is not just a matter of

:56:19.:56:27.

Ofcom yearly that we have concerns. For so long and too late, there were

:56:28.:56:32.

no links between higher education and further education in the way in

:56:33.:56:37.

which the bill was brought forward. Perhaps more importantly, and I

:56:38.:56:40.

really would ask ministers to reflect upon this, we have had a

:56:41.:56:46.

spirited discussion this afternoon about whether we need to have a

:56:47.:56:50.

strategy for careers advice on the face of the bill. We still believe

:56:51.:56:54.

we do have and we believe that the Minister has missed a trick in that

:56:55.:56:58.

respect. We think it would have entrenched his position for the

:56:59.:57:03.

careers advice and not diminished it. But the broader issue of course

:57:04.:57:07.

is that so much of the what the Minister has talked about and what

:57:08.:57:11.

we would all like to see is not simply an issue for DfEE. If we want

:57:12.:57:18.

to deliver traineeships, which I know he is passionate about, we have

:57:19.:57:23.

got to get structures and links between the DfEE and DWP to come the

:57:24.:57:31.

concordance of it some issues. If we wanted to live the careers advice,

:57:32.:57:37.

there has to be a similar engagement and a balancing act with the DWP.

:57:38.:57:45.

These things are not things that should be left in that particular

:57:46.:57:50.

box. The situation for apprentices is not one, and I pay tribute to the

:57:51.:57:57.

Minister for the passion he has shown for apprenticeships, but they

:57:58.:58:03.

are still handicapped by a number of things which the government has yet

:58:04.:58:10.

to prove its bone fide on. That includes issues around the GCSE

:58:11.:58:15.

situation in English and maths. I have heard encouraging words on that

:58:16.:58:19.

but we have not nailed this issue down, and that will not go away

:58:20.:58:22.

unless there is a satisfactory solution to the continual repeat and

:58:23.:58:30.

soul destroying process of retakes in GCSEs. The other point of course

:58:31.:58:36.

that needs to be made is that apprentices have decided to do what

:58:37.:58:40.

they want to do, they do not just work or exist in a vacuum. That is

:58:41.:58:46.

why it was ruled to be out of the scope of this bill but it is still

:58:47.:58:51.

an important issue. There were issues around how apprentice

:58:52.:58:54.

families are supported in terms of child benefit and other issues. They

:58:55.:59:01.

need to be looked at not within the minister's and Secretary of State's

:59:02.:59:05.

department, but other departments as well because of the boys, they will

:59:06.:59:09.

be a real issue problem. It was mentioned in passenger the issues

:59:10.:59:15.

around evolution, and I do not want to go much further on that tonight,

:59:16.:59:21.

but I think it is something the government needs to think very

:59:22.:59:24.

clearly about. The government is going ahead with the Devo Max

:59:25.:59:32.

process and yet we have a bill here and structures within that bill that

:59:33.:59:36.

do not reflect what the reality will be of the delivery of adult

:59:37.:59:43.

education and possibly apprenticeships. Personally, it is

:59:44.:59:47.

not seem to me in the long term that you can have the proper skills

:59:48.:59:50.

strategy on a localised basis without taking apprenticeships into

:59:51.:59:55.

account as well as adult education. There has been no addressing a this

:59:56.:00:03.

bill. The issue of insolvencies, the Minister has spoken about that, I

:00:04.:00:07.

associate myself with what he said about that being a minority issue.

:00:08.:00:12.

But it is worth remembering the context in which this comes, it is a

:00:13.:00:19.

profound period of funding cuts and everything that goes with it. And

:00:20.:00:23.

that is something that the government needs to address. That is

:00:24.:00:28.

the context they have decided to introduce the bill. I would also

:00:29.:00:34.

say, in passing, and the comments the Minister made about careers

:00:35.:00:40.

advice, trouble supporting everything else, that if the

:00:41.:00:44.

government had taken up our proposals, perhaps we would have had

:00:45.:00:49.

a much quicker and speedier process in that respect. I want to return

:00:50.:00:58.

finally to this issue of how we actually delivering this and the

:00:59.:01:03.

timescale involved. It is three months until the apprenticeship levy

:01:04.:01:07.

funding kicks in. We still do not know who the new chief executive

:01:08.:01:12.

will be, we do not know about the board, we have had some progress on

:01:13.:01:18.

these issues today, we are told that example B skills funding agency will

:01:19.:01:23.

stay in charge of the new register of apprentices. The Minister will

:01:24.:01:26.

have seen the comments made in the last couple of days on this. There

:01:27.:01:31.

is genuine bewilderment out there as to why it is not of course which is

:01:32.:01:40.

administering the apprenticeship assessment organisations. Is the

:01:41.:01:43.

real reason they are doing it that they are basically civil servants

:01:44.:01:48.

and it would give every reserve part to ministers to micromanage? That is

:01:49.:01:54.

not question of him but one of his successors. Those are really

:01:55.:01:57.

important issues. They will need to be reflected on in the Other Place.

:01:58.:02:04.

What I would say is this, there were two macro key issues that still

:02:05.:02:08.

remain. Is the funding and staffing numbers dragged out of the

:02:09.:02:16.

government going to be adequate for these responsibilities? I would say

:02:17.:02:24.

doubtful at this stage. And how an's length or genuinely independent of

:02:25.:02:27.

judgment for the new institute be? These are not just tech issues,

:02:28.:02:34.

these are issues which if not resolved properly or not gain the

:02:35.:02:38.

full hearted consent of the stakeholders and providers and all

:02:39.:02:42.

the people that the Minister needs and we all need to get those targets

:02:43.:02:49.

met and to get his aspirations and my aspirations for apprenticeships

:02:50.:02:56.

to be a reality. The question is that the bill we now read a third

:02:57.:03:02.

time. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:03:03.:03:13.

think the eyes have it. The question is as on the order paper. As many as

:03:14.:03:16.

are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes

:03:17.:03:23.

habit. We come now to the adjournment. I beg to move that this

:03:24.:03:32.

House do now adjourned. Nick Dakin. I would first like to pay tribute to

:03:33.:03:36.

all those working in sixth form education for the fantastic but they

:03:37.:03:40.

do on but half of our young people and country. In particular, I would

:03:41.:03:46.

like to take the opportunity to praise the two excellent colleges

:03:47.:03:51.

that serve young people in north Lincolnshire. Having led John

:03:52.:03:55.

Leggett is principal before being elected to this House, I know how

:03:56.:03:59.

important this phase of education is in transforming life opportunities.

:04:00.:04:04.

I also know that, since I stood down as principal, the challenges facing

:04:05.:04:09.

those colleges has been immense. Three direct cuts were imposed on

:04:10.:04:15.

16-18 funding in the last Parliament while 5-16 funding was protected.

:04:16.:04:22.

13.6% cuts, colleges now face a further 8% erosion of the current

:04:23.:04:26.

national funding rate over the remainder of this Parliament due to

:04:27.:04:30.

inflation and there are further pressures from increased employer

:04:31.:04:34.

pension and national insurance costs. The average funding for

:04:35.:04:38.

students and sixth forms, schools and academies is now ?4583, 20% less

:04:39.:04:51.

than the funding received to educate each 11-16 -year-old and 47% less

:04:52.:04:53.

than the average university tuition fee. I ask the Minister how, in

:04:54.:05:02.

order logic, how it can be cheaper to educate a 16-18 -year-olds

:05:03.:05:07.

compared to A15 -year-old or 19-year-old? The government claims

:05:08.:05:11.

it has provided funds for every full-time student to do a full

:05:12.:05:17.

timetable of courses but it has not published any research into

:05:18.:05:22.

sufficiency of funding provided to educate 16-18 -year-olds. The

:05:23.:05:26.

government does not know how much it costs to do a full timetable of

:05:27.:05:34.

courses. I congratulate my honourable friend in securing this

:05:35.:05:37.

debate and use the right person with his track record to be leading it. I

:05:38.:05:43.

suspect I will be mentioning Lowestoft sixth form college, like a

:05:44.:05:52.

lot of colleagues. It is the underfunded, unsung heroes of

:05:53.:05:55.

British education system and with the right resources, their key role

:05:56.:06:01.

in addressing this country's productivity gap. The honourable

:06:02.:06:06.

member is right to praise Lowestoft College. It does a fantastic job on

:06:07.:06:11.

but half of the young people that the educate. He is also right to say

:06:12.:06:15.

they need to be properly funded to ensure they continue to do that very

:06:16.:06:21.

good job into the future. The National funding rate, currently

:06:22.:06:28.

?4000 for 16 and 17-year-olds, and ?3300 for 18-year-olds, is

:06:29.:06:32.

calculated by taking the settlement derived by the DWP and dividing it

:06:33.:06:38.

by the number of students. It is no more sophisticated than that. In the

:06:39.:06:44.

independent sector, sixth form these are higher than secondary fees to

:06:45.:06:47.

reflect the actual cost of delivery for this age group.

:06:48.:08:19.

It is very of this area that those students who might not excel

:08:20.:08:31.

academically could excel. May there not be spikes in young people's

:08:32.:08:36.

mental health if we do not enable them to do these more rounded

:08:37.:08:45.

courses which is so beneficial. The honourable friend is absolutely

:08:46.:08:49.

right in highlighting the fact that certain elements of the curriculum

:08:50.:08:52.

are under threat when there is such pressure on funding in this way and

:08:53.:08:59.

enrichment activities are one of those many activities which had been

:09:00.:09:03.

under threat over the last six years. There has been a dramatic

:09:04.:09:10.

collapse in funding which has an impact on the education. As someone

:09:11.:09:14.

who has managed resources, I know there are only a small number of

:09:15.:09:18.

variables to play with when you face significant funding cuts, as the

:09:19.:09:25.

sector has since 2010. Alongside the usual good management things around

:09:26.:09:30.

BackOffice, procurement, charges, efficiencies and so on, there are a

:09:31.:09:35.

limited number of options. You can increase shall teaching staff

:09:36.:09:40.

contact time, you can reduce York student contact time, increase class

:09:41.:09:45.

sizes. In reality, you have to do all of those things to make things

:09:46.:09:53.

hang together. He is making an incredibly powerful case. On that

:09:54.:09:56.

issue, would he agree with me their sixth form colleges are cruelly

:09:57.:10:04.

treated? Unlike schools and academies, they cannot cross

:10:05.:10:08.

subsidise from the morgue generous funding available for schools. At

:10:09.:10:15.

the very same time they are the most efficient, they are the most

:10:16.:10:18.

underfunded section of the higher education area. My honourable friend

:10:19.:10:24.

is right to point to the performance of sixth form colleges but also the

:10:25.:10:28.

pressure on the funding of sixth form colleges in particular. The

:10:29.:10:34.

funding of 16-18 -year-olds is not just affecting sixth form colleges

:10:35.:10:38.

but schools, sixth forms and academies sixth forms as well.

:10:39.:10:47.

These are the typical ways these have altered since 2010. In 2010

:10:48.:11:04.

most level three students, progressing to courses in year two.

:11:05.:11:11.

In most cases, the enrichment has gone. Tutorial has shrunk. General

:11:12.:11:18.

studies has disappeared. Number of advanced level courses taken note is

:11:19.:11:23.

normally three in 40 years. This leads to significantly lower student

:11:24.:11:28.

contact time. I know from experience that there is a direct correlation

:11:29.:11:33.

between contact time and achievement particularly from students who have

:11:34.:11:43.

struggled to achieve at 16. My north Lincolnshire neighbour, thank you

:11:44.:11:48.

for giving way. Congratulations on securing this debate. He will know

:11:49.:11:55.

that his neighbouring constituency, being a coastal community, has

:11:56.:11:59.

problems with social mobility. Will he shared with me the hope that the

:12:00.:12:04.

Minister in his response will indicate the Government's continuing

:12:05.:12:09.

support for sixth form colleges such as that in Grimsby? I thank my

:12:10.:12:13.

honourable neighbour for his contribution. All four Humber sixth

:12:14.:12:25.

form colleges are high performing. I am sure the Minister is listening

:12:26.:12:29.

carefully. I am sure he will respond and give us all hope for a very rosy

:12:30.:12:34.

future when he comes to speak later in the debate. The impact on

:12:35.:12:38.

students has been significant. The sixth form college associations

:12:39.:12:46.

survey showed that this is an increasingly narrow and part-time

:12:47.:12:52.

experience. Colleges have dropped courses as a result of cost

:12:53.:12:58.

increases. 39% have dropped courses in modern foreign languages. That

:12:59.:13:01.

majority have reduced or removed extracurricular activities including

:13:02.:13:10.

music, drama, sport and languages. Worryingly, 64% do not believe the

:13:11.:13:15.

funding that they will receive next year will be sufficient to support

:13:16.:13:20.

students that are educationally or economic lead disadvantage, the very

:13:21.:13:25.

point that my neighbour was making. I thank my honourable friend for

:13:26.:13:30.

giving way. As has been mentioned, the college in my constituency has

:13:31.:13:34.

experienced significant funding cuts to the point where it has lost

:13:35.:13:39.

around ?1 million per year. The impact of that has been a reduction

:13:40.:13:42.

in courses. Does my honourable friend think that also have an

:13:43.:13:47.

impact when it comes to students looking to choose a variety of HE

:13:48.:13:59.

courses? Absolutely, there is an impact on progression into higher

:14:00.:14:03.

education, particularly in courses like modern foreign languages, and

:14:04.:14:08.

also concerning the end other courses. Today it is no 15-17 hours

:14:09.:14:17.

of weekly tuition and support has become the norm for sixth form

:14:18.:14:22.

students in England. This would be considered part-time study in most

:14:23.:14:26.

national education systems. Research commissioned by sixth form college

:14:27.:14:33.

association describes sixth form education in England as uniquely

:14:34.:14:37.

narrow and short compared to the model adopted in Shanghai,

:14:38.:14:43.

Singapore, Sweden and elsewhere. In Shanghai, the upper secondary

:14:44.:14:47.

curriculum is based on it fundamental subjects. In addition

:14:48.:14:56.

there are extended subjects and activities that allow for greater

:14:57.:15:01.

specialisation or new or collective forms of learning, finally there are

:15:02.:15:05.

research-based subjects that take two hours per week. Overall a total

:15:06.:15:09.

of 35 lessons per week plus one extra hour per day for meetings or

:15:10.:15:18.

physical exercise. Students receive at least 30 hours per week of

:15:19.:15:25.

tuition. I will give way. I want to thank the honourable member for

:15:26.:15:35.

giving way. I am proud to have two colleges in my constituency. One

:15:36.:15:44.

college was celebrating 60 students getting Duke of Edinburgh awards and

:15:45.:15:50.

that another student 84 -- at another college 85% went on to

:15:51.:15:55.

university. But there are huge challenges, does he agree there

:15:56.:16:01.

should be a review on funding to tackle the realistic cost of

:16:02.:16:06.

providing this well rounded range of subjects so that we can compete

:16:07.:16:10.

internationally? I welcome those comments. He is on the money,

:16:11.:16:17.

literally and metaphorically. The Minister needs to take away one of

:16:18.:16:22.

the issues is to review the funding and go back to check the resourcing

:16:23.:16:29.

of fact well rounded education that we want to see. The reason for

:16:30.:16:34.

making this international comparison is to say, this is what is being

:16:35.:16:39.

invested in other high performing systems, if we want to compete

:16:40.:16:43.

effectively with those high performing systems, we need to be

:16:44.:16:46.

willing to look at what we are doing in a self-critical way and set out

:16:47.:16:51.

our stock accordingly and I am sure that is what the Minister will want

:16:52.:16:58.

to do when he speaks later. Look at Singapore, upper secondary

:16:59.:17:01.

curriculum is based on core examination subjects, elective

:17:02.:17:06.

examinations, and compulsory non-examination subjects. Core

:17:07.:17:13.

examination subjects studied for eight hours per week. Students

:17:14.:17:15.

choose CD or for elective subjects and study each for 4-6 hours per

:17:16.:17:22.

week. Assembly, physical education, character development, take up to

:17:23.:17:26.

four hours per week. Students receive up to 27 hours tuition and

:17:27.:17:34.

support, 32% for those taking for subjects. Duration is two years or

:17:35.:17:38.

three years. The European comparison, Sweden, upper secondary

:17:39.:17:46.

education is structured primarily through three year national

:17:47.:17:50.

programmes, each programme covers a series of foundation subjects,

:17:51.:17:57.

English, history, mathematics, science, social studies, Swedish,

:17:58.:18:00.

religion, in addition a number of subjects specific to a given

:18:01.:18:04.

programme are chosen, therefore students receive 19 hours tuition

:18:05.:18:08.

per week, but crucially this entitlement is for three years

:18:09.:18:11.

rather than two. The Institute of education concludes its report by

:18:12.:18:18.

describing the English model as low hours and short duration. Students

:18:19.:18:23.

and other leading education systems receive more tuition time, studied

:18:24.:18:28.

more subjects, and in some cases can benefit from a three-year programme

:18:29.:18:31.

of study rather than two. I give way. I congratulate the

:18:32.:18:38.

honourable gentleman in bringing this issue forward. This has been

:18:39.:18:45.

raised in my constituency by a principle who has felt the problem

:18:46.:18:50.

with enrichment, the narrowing of education, the problems of

:18:51.:18:55.

efficiency, at the heart of children's education, and the impact

:18:56.:19:00.

internationally. With the honourable gentleman agree the potential impact

:19:01.:19:04.

of the Government was to look at this on our universities, the impact

:19:05.:19:11.

of picking up the narrow education, the impact of universities having to

:19:12.:19:14.

pick up the pieces if we are to compete internationally? In some

:19:15.:19:20.

ways this reinforces the point made earlier. The system describes...

:19:21.:19:39.

Students in England by contrast with those elsewhere in the world,

:19:40.:19:44.

students in England receive half as much tuition time and are following

:19:45.:19:48.

a three subject diet. In addition the funding cut for 18-year-old

:19:49.:19:53.

students has created a financial disincentive for schools and

:19:54.:19:57.

colleges to offer a third year to complete sixth form studies, and

:19:58.:20:01.

these are very young people who need additional support and time. The

:20:02.:20:07.

Institute also contrasted the narrowing of the sixth form

:20:08.:20:11.

curriculum and England's compute to the model of international

:20:12.:20:16.

competitors. They said unlike other national systems where the amount of

:20:17.:20:20.

tuition increases in upper secondary education, when compared with the

:20:21.:20:25.

lower secondary phase, the English experience is the opposite. The

:20:26.:20:28.

sharp reduction in the number of subjects studied post-16, an average

:20:29.:20:32.

of four subjects, no reducing to three, compared to 316, ten or more,

:20:33.:20:40.

appears to represent sudden movement to a part-time curriculum.

:20:41.:20:49.

Bizarrely, despite these huge pressures on mainstream 16-18, since

:20:50.:20:52.

2010, the Government has enabled to spend money on unproven, untested

:20:53.:20:59.

new and different types of provision for 16-18 -year-olds. This is money

:21:00.:21:02.

that could have been spent on mainstream students and I believe it

:21:03.:21:07.

has been an unwise indulgence in what I would say as cortical

:21:08.:21:14.

peccadilloes at a time when there is a contraction in both the population

:21:15.:21:20.

and budgets. 169 new academy and maintained sixth form work opens

:21:21.:21:27.

between 2010-2015, total number of students remains static. Curiously

:21:28.:21:34.

the Department for Education offers little. The question is that the

:21:35.:21:47.

House do know I'd turn. -- does no adjourn. The Department for

:21:48.:21:54.

Education offers little in the way of practical advice to make school

:21:55.:21:59.

sixth forms work and has not researched the effectiveness of

:22:00.:22:08.

these reforms. In March 2016 ministers, and I welcome the fact

:22:09.:22:12.

that ministers introduced five new tests to ensure that new sixth forms

:22:13.:22:17.

are viable, but this is a limited step because it does not cover the

:22:18.:22:21.

sixth forms that are already open. There is no small institutions with

:22:22.:22:31.

180, in rolling fewer than 100 students. That is emerging evidence

:22:32.:22:36.

that some of the performance is not what we would hope for. Meanwhile

:22:37.:22:42.

university technical colleges have struggled to achieve viability and a

:22:43.:22:46.

system built around exams and transfer at age 16 and six articles

:22:47.:22:53.

and one did not open as planned. Sensible policy would be to review

:22:54.:22:59.

sixth form which are particularly small or underperforming at a time

:23:00.:23:01.

when money is short. Ashton sixth form college would want

:23:02.:23:23.

to be mentioned. Would he agree that, where demand does exist, that

:23:24.:23:31.

can only be met through a school academy or free school sick form

:23:32.:23:41.

provision being created? I think my honourable friend makes a good

:23:42.:23:45.

point. The Minister is listening carefully and will take that point

:23:46.:23:48.

on board along with the other points the honourable members have made. In

:23:49.:23:53.

conclusion, I would like to pose a few questions to the Minister. Why

:23:54.:24:00.

are sixth formers in England only funded to receive half of the

:24:01.:24:05.

tuition time and support as sick form is in Shanghai, Singapore and

:24:06.:24:11.

other leading education systems? Why are they facing a standard diet of

:24:12.:24:16.

just three advanced level subjects while another international systems,

:24:17.:24:20.

sixth formers can study eight or nine? I think it is very good to

:24:21.:24:26.

have the Secretary of State educated in the comprehensive system who

:24:27.:24:29.

attended a comprehensive college. That is the first I welcome. She

:24:30.:24:36.

will be well aware than 16-18 -year-olds choose to study in

:24:37.:24:41.

colleges while less choose to study in schools. All are affected by the

:24:42.:24:46.

squeeze on funding for their age group. Will the Secretary of State

:24:47.:24:50.

move away from funding sixth formers based on an arbitrator funding rate

:24:51.:24:56.

and review funding to ensure it is linked to the realistic costs of

:24:57.:25:00.

delivering a rounded, high-quality curriculum? For the Secretary of

:25:01.:25:05.

State agree to work with the sixth form College association in

:25:06.:25:13.

conducting this review, building on the current evidence base? Finally,

:25:14.:25:18.

in the state sector, education funding decreases at the age of 16

:25:19.:25:24.

to an average of ?4583 per student per year. In the independent sector,

:25:25.:25:29.

school fees increase at the age of 16 to an average of ?15,333 per

:25:30.:25:36.

student per year. What does the Minister think are the implications

:25:37.:25:41.

of this for social mobility? On the day the Prime Minister has made an

:25:42.:25:45.

important speech on this matter, sounds to me like the sort of

:25:46.:25:49.

everyday injustice that she would be keen to tackle in her desire to

:25:50.:26:00.

build a shared society. Can I start by adding to the adulation of the

:26:01.:26:06.

House to the honourable member for Scunthorpe? My congratulations on

:26:07.:26:13.

securing this debate, ensuring that high-quality post-16 education is a

:26:14.:26:17.

priority for the government and the country. We recognise the

:26:18.:26:20.

contribution of the dedicated staff working in all types of post-16

:26:21.:26:26.

education and the hard work of students. A record proportion of

:26:27.:26:31.

young people are now participating in education, training or

:26:32.:26:34.

apprenticeships. I can give my honourable friend and the honourable

:26:35.:26:40.

member for Grimsby the assurance that the government does support

:26:41.:26:44.

sixth form colleges, including the college mentioned by my honourable

:26:45.:26:53.

friend. Education and training in England is widely respected around

:26:54.:26:57.

the world but we are determined to make further improvements to ensure

:26:58.:27:01.

that 16-19 -year-olds are ready for the demands of the workplace, either

:27:02.:27:07.

by moving directly into school employment or continuing to higher

:27:08.:27:11.

education. We are reforming academic and technical education for those

:27:12.:27:19.

over 16 and are learning from the best international systems. All

:27:20.:27:23.

countries that we look to learn from have a stage of education that no

:27:24.:27:27.

longer exclusively takes place in school. There are options for

:27:28.:27:31.

students to gain relevant experience to prepare them for work, either

:27:32.:27:38.

through apprenticeships or technical education or to prepare for further

:27:39.:27:44.

academic study at university. The way this work and age this starts

:27:45.:27:47.

varies considerably around the world. In countries like Germany,

:27:48.:27:52.

Switzerland and the Netherlands, there is a high level of investment

:27:53.:27:57.

by employers in vocational training in the secondary face and an early

:27:58.:28:02.

emphasis on workplace training. This leads to lower rates of young people

:28:03.:28:06.

not in education, employment or training than in England but the

:28:07.:28:10.

difference in academic standards between pupils from different socio

:28:11.:28:14.

economic backgrounds in these countries is larger than in England.

:28:15.:28:20.

By contrast, only one fifth of 15-19 -year-olds in Japan and Korea are

:28:21.:28:27.

enrolled in vocational courses and the remaining percentage continue a

:28:28.:28:32.

rigorous academic programme. It is very useful to benchmark ourselves

:28:33.:28:44.

against these countries, to understand the strength and

:28:45.:28:48.

weaknesses of our education system and to raise our expectations of

:28:49.:28:51.

what students here can achieve. That's why I am determined why we

:28:52.:28:56.

should improve our maths teaching by learning from the high performing

:28:57.:29:02.

Asian systems, such as Shanghai, Singapore and Japan, by adopting

:29:03.:29:06.

maths mastery. But it is not simply a case of choosing one country to

:29:07.:29:12.

learn from. Our priority should be making our whole system world class.

:29:13.:29:17.

But there is much to be proud of in comparing our education system to

:29:18.:29:22.

other countries. England's 15-year-olds continue to perform

:29:23.:29:25.

significantly above the OECD the average in science and for the first

:29:26.:29:31.

time in 2015, above average in Reading. Our performance in maths

:29:32.:29:38.

remains at the OECD average and a survey of adult skills identified

:29:39.:29:43.

them as having the week as literacy and numerous C skills out of 18

:29:44.:29:50.

countries in 2012. In the case of literacy and numerous C, we have now

:29:51.:29:54.

made the continuous study of English and maths in post-16 education and

:29:55.:29:58.

training compulsory for students who did not achieve a GCSE or past 16.

:29:59.:30:08.

We are reforming both academic and technical education. International

:30:09.:30:15.

examples of ours are widely used. But these comparisons need to be

:30:16.:30:19.

carefully interpreted. It is important we understand what these

:30:20.:30:23.

estimates include, how programmes serve longer duration or higher

:30:24.:30:28.

intensity are funded and how they sit beside other routes for young

:30:29.:30:33.

people to take from school to work. It is not always clear in the

:30:34.:30:36.

various studies were work experience is included in the figures. In the

:30:37.:30:43.

planned ours used to benchmark our own programmes for funding, we do

:30:44.:30:48.

not include self-directed study or home work, which is a key part of

:30:49.:30:52.

the space of education. What is important as we develop a system

:30:53.:30:56.

which serves our pupils and economy. In England we have an established

:30:57.:31:01.

academic group the sixth form students through well-respected

:31:02.:31:05.

A-level qualifications. Our system requires pupils to make choices and

:31:06.:31:11.

therefore to a certain extent to specialise in a smaller number of

:31:12.:31:16.

subjects 46th form stage but some degree of specialisation is a

:31:17.:31:20.

feature of systems and other countries as well through the

:31:21.:31:25.

A-level route, our academic system is effective in preparing pupils for

:31:26.:31:30.

successful futures through in-depth studies of the subjects they choose.

:31:31.:31:34.

We have some of the best universities in the world. The

:31:35.:31:38.

proportion of English students studying in higher education is high

:31:39.:31:44.

that it has ever been. But we are not standing still and are

:31:45.:31:50.

strengthening the design to make sure the pupils continue to be fully

:31:51.:31:56.

equipped for the future. We have given higher education providers a

:31:57.:31:59.

leading role in redesigning a number of key A-levels to ensure that

:32:00.:32:03.

pupils who take these qualifications are prepared for undergraduate level

:32:04.:32:06.

study. We have also redesigned the assessment model, increasing the

:32:07.:32:11.

time available for high-quality teaching rather than taking exams.

:32:12.:32:16.

Where we have not matched our neighbours is in technical

:32:17.:32:24.

education, where we have a major programme of review underway. It is

:32:25.:32:30.

conducted by Professor Alison Bolton 2011, and that found that at least

:32:31.:32:37.

350,000 16-19 -year-olds working towards vocational qualifications

:32:38.:32:41.

offered no clear progression. The review led to the introduction of

:32:42.:32:47.

new study programmes and per student funding is the perfect qualification

:32:48.:32:50.

funding to ensure their funding and every college in line with other

:32:51.:32:56.

16-19 institutions. As a direct result of the recommendations in the

:32:57.:33:03.

report, we now only include approved qualifications in performance

:33:04.:33:06.

tables, meaning young people can have confidence that their

:33:07.:33:09.

qualifications will enable them to progress to further study or

:33:10.:33:12.

employment. But we recognise that the system is not doing enough to

:33:13.:33:18.

support students who wish to pursue technical education and we recognise

:33:19.:33:23.

that we're still not matching the most effective systems of technical

:33:24.:33:27.

education in other European economies. Following the publication

:33:28.:33:32.

of the Sainsbury review, we are embarking on radical reform of

:33:33.:33:37.

England's post-16 technical education system, learning from best

:33:38.:33:43.

systems. We are working to introduce new technical routes, enabling young

:33:44.:33:45.

people to gain the knowledge and skills required for work according

:33:46.:33:50.

to standards designed in partnership with employers and bringing training

:33:51.:33:54.

for young people and adults in line with the needs of business and

:33:55.:33:59.

industry. We will support increases in productivity, which has lagged

:34:00.:34:05.

behind. It will also help ensure that young people and adults can

:34:06.:34:09.

move into sustained and skilled careers, which lead to prosperity

:34:10.:34:15.

and security. Alongside this, we are continuing the reform of

:34:16.:34:18.

apprenticeships, increasing the quality of apprenticeships through

:34:19.:34:22.

more rigorous assessment and grading, and giving employers

:34:23.:34:25.

control of the funding so they become more demanding. We are

:34:26.:34:32.

committed to reaching 3 million apprenticeships starts in England by

:34:33.:34:38.

2020. I am genuinely very much welcome his support for the sick

:34:39.:34:42.

form sector and colleges but he has been speaking up for nearly ten

:34:43.:34:46.

minutes and has said nothing about the arbitrator funding which has

:34:47.:34:49.

been the focus of so much concern expressed on all sides of the House.

:34:50.:34:54.

Only committee will look at this funding issue? The government will

:34:55.:35:02.

look at how much funded is required? Colleges in my constituency are

:35:03.:35:06.

desperate to deliver that but it is being undermined by the lack of

:35:07.:35:09.

funding, which he has not addressed so far. If only the honourable

:35:10.:35:16.

member her just waited two more seconds, we would have come to that

:35:17.:35:19.

pivotal part of my response to this debate. Clearly, the right level of

:35:20.:35:27.

funding needs to be in place to match our ambitious academic and

:35:28.:35:31.

technical reforms. In 2013, investment in education in the UK as

:35:32.:35:36.

a whole, combining public and private sources, was above the OECD

:35:37.:35:43.

average course or faces, including post-16. We have made the system

:35:44.:35:47.

more coherent so sick form and colleges are all funded and have

:35:48.:35:52.

performance reported in the same way. Funding is on a per student

:35:53.:35:56.

basis, giving schools and colleges the freedom to design the best

:35:57.:36:00.

programme for their students rather than awarding institutions for

:36:01.:36:03.

providing large numbers of small qualifications with little value.

:36:04.:36:10.

I thank the Minister for giving me on that point. He sees that all

:36:11.:36:18.

institutions are treated the same but in the reviews that we have seen

:36:19.:36:23.

undertaken in many parts of the country three schools in particular

:36:24.:36:29.

were out with this review. Is he aware of the sixth form college in

:36:30.:36:38.

my constituency that has recently received a requires improvement

:36:39.:36:44.

rating, it is operating below the numbers required. Does he think that

:36:45.:36:50.

is a good use of public funds in the context of this debate?

:36:51.:36:58.

These reviews can take into account schools, but there are 2000 schools

:36:59.:37:03.

or more that have sixth forms and if you are to take all schools with

:37:04.:37:07.

sixth forms into the review that would make the system and

:37:08.:37:15.

manageable. The free system was introduced to challenge the call

:37:16.:37:20.

because we have had a monopoly provision of schools in the past.

:37:21.:37:26.

The free school phenomenon has been significant.

:37:27.:37:37.

Dees are challenging the status quo in those areas and are providing

:37:38.:37:44.

high-quality education. We need to see more of these innovative schools

:37:45.:37:51.

to open up opportunities for young people that they would not have

:37:52.:38:02.

without free sixth form schools. Does he accept that the research

:38:03.:38:06.

available demonstrates that the funding of 16-18 -year-olds since

:38:07.:38:12.

2010 has reduced in real terms and this has reduced the level of

:38:13.:38:20.

tuition time down to 13-17 hours per student? I am interested whether he

:38:21.:38:24.

recognises that as an issue and whether he sees it as a problem? I

:38:25.:38:32.

recognise that resources are tight for 16-19 education and training and

:38:33.:38:40.

in recent years we have had to make post-16 savings while working hard

:38:41.:38:44.

to sustain funding levels for schools, bearing in mind that

:38:45.:38:51.

success in school 316 is the best predictor of outcomes in post-16

:38:52.:38:56.

education that we have made clear commitments where we have protected

:38:57.:39:00.

the base rate of funding at ?4000 per student for all types of

:39:01.:39:07.

provider until 2020. This was announced the 2015 Spending Review.

:39:08.:39:11.

And at a time when public finances are under great pressure. Providers

:39:12.:39:18.

receive additional funding for more expensive programmes and that is a

:39:19.:39:23.

large uplift for providers who have pupils who are studying four or more

:39:24.:39:27.

a levels provided the achieve minimum grade requirements, and ?540

:39:28.:39:33.

million of funding is allocated each year to enable schools and colleges

:39:34.:39:38.

to give extra support to disadvantaged students, essential in

:39:39.:39:41.

helping those from less well-off backgrounds, or who have not

:39:42.:39:45.

attained well before the age of 16, to get the help they need to

:39:46.:39:55.

succeed. We plan to spend ?20 billion in 2016-2017 to make sure

:39:56.:40:00.

there is a space in education and training for every 16-19 -year-old

:40:01.:40:06.

who wants one. All types of providers are funded for 600 hours

:40:07.:40:13.

per year per full-time student. This will allow for three A-levels and 50

:40:14.:40:21.

hours tutorials plus either one AS-level or 150 hours of enrichment

:40:22.:40:25.

or a work experience. While we have not been able to protect budgets for

:40:26.:40:31.

sixth form education in real terms there is funding to ensure that

:40:32.:40:37.

every sixth form each student has the opportunity to undertake high

:40:38.:40:41.

quality study that will enable them to move on to skills work or further

:40:42.:40:48.

or higher education. Our commitments to the post-16 sector has

:40:49.:40:51.

contributed to the current record high proportion of 16-18 -year-olds

:40:52.:40:56.

in education or apprenticeship and the lowest proportion of young

:40:57.:41:08.

people, applications are at an all-time high. I recognise there is

:41:09.:41:18.

more to do to continue improving our post-16 education system to make

:41:19.:41:21.

sure it is established as one of the best in the world that we should be

:41:22.:41:26.

proud of the achievements so far and recognise that we are building a

:41:27.:41:29.

system that is both affordable and in keeping with our country's needs.

:41:30.:41:35.

The question is that this post as no adjourn, as many as are of that

:41:36.:41:44.

opinion see aye. The Ayes Havret. Order. Order.

:41:45.:42:30.

No one can deny that politicians are important people as I am sure they

:42:31.:42:37.

would be the first to remind us. It is up to them to make the laws which

:42:38.:42:45.

govern our lives. You and I might call them bigwigs. The origin of

:42:46.:42:52.

this word. This was the meeting place of the law courts for almost

:42:53.:42:57.

seven centuries and wigs made an appearance when Charles II is made

:42:58.:43:01.

them essential for polite society. Wigs

:43:02.:43:02.

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons including an urgent question on domestic violence cases and a statement on mental health and NHS performance and the remaining stages of the Technical and Further Education Bill.