13/01/2017 House of Commons

Order, order. We will come to points of order if that is what it is, in a

moment. Recitation of Bill. Secretary of State for Communities

and Local Government. Local Government Finance Bill. Second

reading what day? Tomorrow. Thank you. I beg that this House do now

sit in Private. The question is that the House and sit in Private? I

think the noes have it. The noes have it. The Clerk will now proceed

to read the orders of the day. Broadcasting (Radio Multiplex

Services) Bill, second reading. I beg to move that the Broadcasting

(Radio Multiplex Services) Bill be now read a second time. Mr Speaker,

it is a pressured -- a pleasure to bring this bill to the floor of the

House today in what I hope will be a constructive, interesting,

informative and perhaps even entertaining debate. In starting,

can I thank the clerks in the public builds office, my own staff and the

radio team at the Department for the, media and sport in putting this

bill together. It has to be said that it's somewhat interesting that

we are here on Friday the 13th to discuss this. Some people say it's a

day that is unlucky for some and I hope it will be a lucky day for this

bill given some of the issues we sometimes have on Friday with Bill

is managing to make progress. On the course -- in the course of my own

remarks, I intend to explain some of the details in the bill and how I

think they will bring legislation which will bring benefits not just

to listeners of DAV radio but two other creative and media industries

as well as giving community radio stations a chance to go digital.

Plus a chance to create diversity and media that doesn't currently

exist. It's also worth being clear that this bill relates to the whole

of the United Kingdom, given that broadcasting is a matter that is not

devolved, so slightly disappointing tonight that members who are

normally keen to make points about bills which do not relate to

Scotland on Friday are not here for a bill which directly does relate to

them, particularly parts of rural Scotland which could allow them to

develop services which do not currently exist or to give a real

community feel. This is a bill for all corners of the United Kingdom,

that they could all benefit from. The first point to consider, of

course, is whether it is needed at all. I know the honourable member

for Bury North who is in his place is one member who regularly and

rightly raises this in relation to bills being put forward in this

House, actually, what is this about? What will it achieve? What will it

do? Passing pieces of legislation is not just for academic debate. What

benefit will it bring and why should we look to bring it forward? I

suppose the first part to explain this what actually is a multiplex? I

expect many people when they saw this on the order paper read it and

thought, what is that about? What is a multiplex? As the House of Commons

library briefing note handily explained in non-technical jargon,

and it's possible to get extremely technical in some of the

descriptions, ADA be multiplex can be broadcast on multiple platforms

using the same platform. Analogue transmissions are broadcast on

individual frequencies and neighbouring transmitters cannot use

the same transmitters as each other, so many of us will be able to think

of a local radio station that advertises itself as 94 point

whatever FM, because I'm analogue it's important you know the

frequency. On digital... In a moment I will give way. Whereas digital is

broadcast by the name of the station because it is effectively on the

same frequency wherever you are. I will happily give way to my

honourable friend. Can I thank very much my honourable friend for giving

way. Forgive me, but I am not a particularly clever man, so I find

it difficult to understand the technical side of this. Could you

remind me, is F M part of that analogue or is that digital? I thank

the honourable member for his intervention. F M is an analogue

intervention and I will go into this more in a bit, as that is where most

community stations currently are, whereas DAB, you tune in by the name

of the station. You don't search for a frequency, you search for a

station name. We could even have a chance for hedgehog DAB community

sound if there were more opportunities for digital radio. A

local station dedicated to promoting the benefits of the hedgehog as our

national animal, I know a matter the honourable member takes very

seriously. Many of us would probably listen to digital radio already and

think, how does this bill fit in? What is the purpose of this bill in

terms of a multiplex on a small scale? At the moment on digital

radio, there are three national multiplexes that currently broadcast

between ten and 19 stations each. These are probably the most popular

stations. I went give them any promotion they really don't need.

But they are the ones that you can hear in virtually every part of the

United Kingdom and they cover about 97% of the UK population. They can

receive one of the three national multiplexes. The latest figures are

about 97% of the UK population can receive one of those three national

multiplexes. There are then 58 local commercial DAV multiplexes covering

county sized areas. Each broadcast commercial radio stations as well as

the local BBC radio station for the area and from figures from the House

of Commons library, over 90% of the UK population should be covered by

one of these, so, for example, in my own area, I can receive BBC radio

Devon through the local multiplex and also some of the commercial

services that currently operate on DAB. Yet when we read that

description, we instantly realise that there is a real gap in what

most people recognise as the third layer of radio, namely community

radio. We have national radio, regional and then we have the very

small-scale community radio stations that many people know and love.

Certainly. I am grateful to my honourable friend for giving way.

Does he agree with me that when we are talking of these layers of

radio, community is the one that we often forget about. We hear the big

names in radio but the reach of community radio has such impact? I

thank the Member for Brownhills for that interesting and pointed

intervention. We could think of community radio that becomes famous

across the country, because it does reflect very much the community that

is being broadcast. We will see later Aric samples of particular

places where there are communities with different language services

which would not necessarily appeal across the UK, but in a particular

area, it speaks to a need that people want to hear. When we see an

explosion in opportunities on the Internet, it seems strange that at

the moment we are very restricted in what we can get onto radio and even

the bizarre situation where actually we can get far more TV stations are

many areas broadcast free to air that we can radio stations. A

contrasting situation that most of us will remember 20 or 25 years ago,

when we only had the main analogue TV stations, but radio had started

to expand. This bill looks to expand that type of choice. You can get

more formal things from more community. It will mean something to

you but not necessarily appeal to the whole area of a region. As

touched on... Thank you, Mr Speaker and my honourable friend for giving

way. After his clear explanation of the difference between these

different F M and digital and analogue services, would my

honourable friend agree that in rural areas like mine, that's where

community radio stations can really come into their own because often

they can't link into the transmitters and the sparse

populations, those areas are where small community radio stations can

serve a very important purpose? I thank the honourable member for her

intervention and absolutely agree with that. One of the issues at the

moment is that a community radio station radio station looking to

sever very small community that might be viable fire FM finds the

jump to DAB virtually impossible because of the revenue they have do

produce. To build the infrastructure, that has to do why

devote including nearby city -- by default include a local city in

order to make it feasible. This thrust of this bill is to include

more areas with the ability to go on to DAB in a practical sense, rather

than just the theoretical. In a rural area, you would not be able to

generate the type of revenue she would need to in order to support

that and therefore you would not be giving a service that many people

would like to listen to. I think that intervention... Briefly, then I

must make progress. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

Would he agree with me that the plurality of an area is a problem in

itself? It's not just about the revenue it needs to generate but

also the signal strength that they are allowed. With the topography of

a rural area, it can restrict how far they can transmit in the current

analogue situation. The intervention, and she's right to

point out that geography and topography is going to have a large

impact on what people can receive in radio and television signals. One of

the points of this Bill is that because it's about targeting the

infrastructure that provides radio, it would potentially give options,

as I'll touch on later, to provide a service where digital radio doesn't

exist currently, or the choice is limited due to the topography of the

area. That is a reason why, when you look at how the technology works,

that having the current licence system hasn't kept up with it, so

therefore needing a different option for stations on a smaller scale. In

the same way as the old analog technologies. Originally, there was

a small number of analogue stations broadcasting at a time when the

technology was extremely expensive. Then as we saw the technology

reduced in price, an increasing number of stations were created,

including community stations. Now we need to look at creating a

legislative process and licensing system that allows that technology

that is becoming cheaper in the digital sense, to allow community

stations to go on to go onto it. As I've touched on, in terms of

interventions already, one of the issues with the current system of

multiplexes is that many areas are to a large or it could mean

providing almost irrelevant content for each community station to go

onto them. For example, a community station that wished to cover Torbay,

perfectly reasonable to be done under an FM licence, would end up

having to be broadcast over a wider area, making any sponsorship or

local discussions, or input for local shows and groups, effectively

meaningless to much of the theoretical listening population.

That's why this Bill is looking at creating smaller multiplexes that

can cover defined areas in the wiki community FM licence can do. Also,

the fact that there are such wide areas to be covered means that the

cost of access is affected by the large-scale jump that is not

necessary for looking to go onto analogue, where community licenses

can be sought, forestation that is being operated out of someone was 's

bedroom or being operated on the Internet from a small studio.

Instead, the jump from that position to being on digital radio can

actually see a fee of ?100,000 being charged, for them to have the right

to broadcast. Effectively, they have to generate revenue of about ?1

million a year to provide a DAB option in the area or in the local

multiplex that currently supplies them. If you think of any other

industry, put that really be tolerated? For me, it is this shelf

that stifles the natural growth of the business from a bedroom or

amateur operation, through to Internet broadcast, then to a

small-scale broadcasting operation, then who knows what next? We have

seen large companies develop literally from people's bedrooms.

You'll recall the story of how Microsoft started off with students

drinking Coca-Cola to keep them awake all night and has now ended up

as one of the biggest companies in the world. I am grateful to him for

giving way. It is all very well in making reference to commercial

operations, but could he confirm whether this Bill would allow

commercial radio stations to operate, or is it just intended to

be non-commercial? I thank him for that intervention. I know he will

have read the Bill and he will have seen that one of the subsection

states that off, may require small-scale BDO multiplexers to be

provided on a non-commercial basis, which is in there. But I think the

thrust of my point mostly is that there are few other industries where

you have such a shelf if you are trying to rule something, so going

from a very small-scale operation to ?1 million a year operation. My

intention is that most of this would focus on community radio primarily

and be the main focus of both, licensing, though I would emphasise

that there would also need to be detailed consultation with the

industry about this operation. Fundamentally, we are looking at

non-commercial, although when he looks through, he will see that

doesn't mean eight non-profitable or charitable organisation. It may be

providing an infrastructure that allows digital radio to be

broadcast, which may carry stations, but has been telling away to allow

digital radio services to be broadcast into an area. Certainly,

if the Bill gets its successful second reading today, certainly at

committee stage, it will be interesting to explore how we refine

the Bill. What I'm clear about is this Bill doesn't put any

requirements on existing multiplex operators and neither would it

attempt to bypass those licensing regimes. So he wouldn't be able to

have multiple small-scale licenses to avoid going through the current

off, licensing procedure for those that are clearly commercial

operations on a large scale. The reason I use the analogy is that if

retailers starting out as market stalls and drawing from that, if we

can imagine that the only options we provide for charitable operations

would be moving from a market stall to a large department store. He

sparked lots of things in my memory, with quite a long career involved in

radio, I used to get frustrated when one was trying to bid into systems,

particularly the BBC system, very complicated systems, to try and get

your ideas on. I used to be very frustrated. This would offer the

opportunity to set up your phone outlet and broadcast your own ideas,

to give opportunities to many people on different levels. I wonder if he

might comment on that. I wanted to get my environmental gardening and

countryside ideas and back in the day, I was told no one was

interested in those things, and that has been proven quite wrong. I thank

her for the intervention, she makes a fantastic point. Sometimes the

community radio operation can take a broadcasting risk that a large-scale

commercial operation or even the BBC, with its requirements to

licence payers, cannot. Earlier this week, we talked about the green

investment bank, which was started to deal with the perceived market

failure, but no private investors want to take that on and develop

some of its actions into a profit-making venture, because they

believe the market has changed. It is the same with podcasting. You can

have something that may not seem inherited -- inherently profitable,

but it can build an individual's abilities and talents that then

allows them to move on to broadcasting more generally. In

effect, is an incubator for what the future might be popular and

successful services. Yet, if we have a position where you can't make that

jump, then in essence, what we do is we restrict the options to those who

can go on the Internet and find that, but when they go on to their

DAB radio, they can't find it, or they have to rely on their FM radio.

This Bill looks to fix that issue in terms of the scale of digital

broadcasting by allowing the creation and licensing of smaller

scale multiplexers that can operate in a local area, giving an

opportunity to create the infrastructure for delivering

digital radio. We must be clear technology has moved on hugely since

the house considered these issues in the past. I may have to do greater

interest. I may have to declare an interest. If I remember rightly, and

maybe he can clarify this, when he was secretary of state for culture,

media and sport, wanted and did announce, if I remember correctly,

that he wanted to see the old analogue system called digital

sooner rather than later. And I think at that particular type, we

were expecting that this would happen very quickly. Could you

clarify? Just to be clear, this Bill does not make any move towards

turning the whole sector from analog to digital. To be very clear, this

does not seek to end the process of seeking community FM licences, that

will still be there. This is about creating an option to be able to put

community radio onto digital broadcasting systems. There is

perhaps a debate at some point in the future, that parliament might

look at options to have a fully digital radio broadcasting system.

However, as it stands today, that's not what's being discussed. It a

debate for future years. With technology moving on, we don't know

if we will still have separate broadcasting systems in the future.

I suspect many of us use the BBC I'd play radio, where you can turn a

dial, select a station and listen to them live broadcast. That doesn't

come through a DAB system, it doesn't come through FM or medium

wave, it comes through your Internet link. I think there will be a future

debate about that, but to be clear, this is not about forcing anyone to

go on DAB, or bringing an end to the analogue broadcast system, it is

about giving a practical option for community radio to be broadcast on

digital. That's what this Bill is about. Although there have been

suggestions in the past, the UK might want to move to it. Norway is

saying it will be the first country to switch off its analogue radio

transmissions. There is some debate and I've been speaking to people in

the industry about that. But fundamentally, it's a debate partly

for another day, but if we get want, if this House ever did consider

ending the analogue broadcast system, we would need to give a

practical and affordable solution to community and smaller scale

operators to be on digital radio, if we didn't just want to annihilate

that whole sector. At the moment, the current system of digital radio

would do that we went to a digital solution. It would leave large

operators but take out hundreds of community radio stations. This is

about giving them an option for digital, it's not about forcing them

onto digital. And it's not about forcing existing multiplexers to

carry them. They are not affected by this. This does not seek to force

them to do anything. It's an option that is timely and might contribute

to a future changeover, but isn't intended to. It is to give them an

option. In terms of the technology moving on, with the days of

large-scale broadcasting equipment be needed to broadcasting reliable

radio transmission are long gone. The idea of engineers running around

in white coats to fix various bits of equipment is just not what

small-scale radio is about any more. Literally, some of these small-scale

radio trials, the main broadcast was being run off a laptop and probably,

it's theoretically possible to run it off a smartphone. We can see how

small-scale broadcasting has become huge on the Internet. YouTube and

Facebook are showing a range of changes and showing things people

would never see on a broadcast channel. That says to me that more

people want to be out there and hear this content and also the following

rates you see at times, in terms of things broadcast over the Internet,

again, it all points towards community broadcasting and people

expressing their own experiences, that really means something to more

people than watch certain broadcast television shows. To provide that

opportunity on digital radio makes eminent sense. We can see the impact

of digital television in terms of opening up a range of choice and

opportunities to deliver new community services, and digital

radio could be the same, if we give an option to have smaller scale

multiplexes. As touched on, we don't know where technology will go next,

and it's almost pointless to spend a morning speculating on, will we

still have broadcast, will we do it through the Internet? What

integration will there be in terms of technologies that might benefit

or not benefit? But we do know, what we fundamentally know is that the

technology exists to enable effective, community run small-scale

digital radio broadcasting, and that's what this Bill seeks to

create a licensing structure to allow.

Of course, in any technology we may say yes, it exists, but is it

practical? A year of work was funded by Ofcom to look at an approach to

enable small-scale DAB broadcasting. The work included ten technical

field trials in towns and cities across the UK. The three main aims

of the trials were to one, test how well the small-scale DAB technology

worked. Two, test how well the technology lends itself to several

parties coordinating their services through the transmitter. Three, to

give the market a chance to learn about small-scale DAB and the

potential opportunities it presents. I'm sure some members before coming

today will have studied Ofcom's report that was published in 2016

and which concerned that the trials had achieved all three aims. First,

that the technology worked and was reliable in terms of transmission.

Second, that the ten trial operators gained significant experience with

some actually innovating further in how this technology could work. But

most importantly, the third aspect of it, is that across the ten areas,

70 unique radio services are now being carried, the majority of which

are totally new to DAB. This wasn't about seeing existing choices

disappear or competition with it, it was about giving a new choice. Thank

you for giving way. A QS question as to how much it would cost a

community organisation to apply for a license, because that seems to my

mind to be something that needs to be taken into account as well. I

thank the honourable member for his intervention. In terms of the

process to apply, this is mostly focused on the actual infrastructure

so it would be possible for a couple of community groups to club together

or potentially bore a provider or an organisation to provide a

small-scale multiplex to help facilitate the growth and creativity

in their area. A university would be a classic example that may provide a

small-scale multiplex that would broadcast both the student radio

station and give the opportunity to other community-based radio

stations. To be clear, the bill also make sure there are protections

around those who operate existing multiplexes. This isn't about

creating a new competitor for them. It's about creating an opportunity

for existing community services to go to digital and I will touch more

on that later on in my speech. Only too happy to. Thank you for giving

way. Can my honourable friend explain what the status is of the 70

unique radio stations which apparently have sprung up, most of

them knew? What would be their status if this bill didn't proceed

and what is their status at the moment without this bill? How can

they pay for it? I thank the honourable member. At the moment,

they operate under a trial basis that Ofcom has created. I think if

this bill didn't proceed, they could continue on a trial basis and

potentially some indications of no, because it is a trial, but the

current system -- if the current system is reinforced by the failure

of this bill and the Government does not want to see a smaller scale, at

some point those radio broadcasts would need to be brought to an end.

My guess is that some might move purely to Internet broadcasting,

restricting their audience. Others might seek to switch to a community

FM licence, but this would be one of the few examples in this Parliament

of us saying, we can see a new technology breeding and coming on

and creating new opportunities and creating more diversity in the

media. As we have done in previous debates, we sometimes get a

misleading picture presented that people only get their news in this

country from one source which is patently nonsense when we look at

the number of options that are there. But actually to not

create this type of opportunity, to create this type of opportunity, to

look at when we have seen it offered up as an opportunity to say, no, we

would rather you all went back to FM only and the National creators are

the only ones who are able to take advantage of this, I think that

would be a national -- a negative step and I see the Minister nodding

some agreement and I'm sure we will hear that in his own remarks later

when we hear the comments on what will be the future for those

stations if we did not seek to create a permanent structure of

small-scale multiplex licensing. I think it's safe to say the future

would be rather grim. In terms of the technology, we know it works, we

know the operators who did it successfully and they have created

new services. The technology is there. The gap in the licensing is

there, the next question is demand. I'll give way. I'm grateful again to

my honourable friend. Could he say a few words though on whether the

infrastructure is there and if it will be financially viable for some

of these community radio stations to move on to the multiplex system? I

thank the honourable member for her intervention. The infrastructure

currently actually isn't there and that the issue we are looking to

create a licence for small-scale multiplex is to allow the creation

of that infrastructure. In terms of cost, what we do know is that the

existing multiplexes work reasonably existing multiplexes work reasonably

well for larger operators that I have touched on, those with a

turnover of around ?1 million can find this an option for them. Some

would debate whether there is effectively a monopoly in some areas

but I am not looking to create that situation, rather an opportunity for

small-scale operations. The feedback is very strongly from the market

that the opportunity is there, particularly with the notion of

shared multiplexes. As we touched on, as I have touched on, this is

not about forcing people to do things. It doesn't compel the

Minister to provide a service or provide a subsidy. It doesn't compel

the BBC to help provide the service. My feeling is there was a strong

need to do this for reasons I will set out in a moment and that if we

don't do it, in leisure studies terms, we are effectively slugging

it out. We have seen new ideas come along and we have seen them

flourish, but if we do not give them the opportunity, I would really have

to say, why not? I thank my honourable friend and thank you for

being so generous to give way. I want to clarify. If the demand is

there and as you have said before, people could be utilising this

technology, would that not eventually drive the cost down? I

thank the honourable member for that point. Indeed, yes. Things are more

able to be done, as we have seen with experience in the past, as

industries have grown and developed, costs have fallen. I am certainly

convinced that in this area we would see the costs for quite

significantly. That is if there was one, the ability to do it, too,

there would be more multiplexes to work from with huge benefits from

this, as you would not have do pay for an area you do not need, and all

of the broadcast of element in the past have been that as things

develop, things have got cheaper. We can look back 50 years ago and see

what happened when we were overly top -- tough and regulatory system

of broadcasting onshore. We ended up with people sat on ships just

outside of our territorial waters to get...

They would be open to possible small commercial stations, they would be

able to access that, even though they are commercial station, is that

right? My understanding is that yes, they would, though it would have to

be very clear. This Bill would set a framework, consultation with the

industry and off, considering individual licence applications.

Possibly very small-scale operations would be able to take advantage of

this, but there would be a process in place to make sure the rights of

existing multiplexers were not affected and Julie, and that

secondly, one of the considerations would be, if you had an interest in

one of those other multiplexers, for example, rules specifically

disbanding someone from applying to have a small-scale multiplex, who

already had an interest in that local or national multiplex. So yes,

it could give opportunity, but this Bill is very much about setting a

framework of legislation, with detail to be taken forward. Partly

about creating a framework is trying to have an element of flexibility as

well, because it will be unique individual circumstances. There are

some areas covered by the National Digital radio multiplexers that are

not covered by the local ones, so again, we may wish to look at some

flexibility there, to allow provision of digital radio. Is about

creating a framework, giving opportunity. But there are limits to

that framework, so it doesn't undermined the current systems of

regulation. But this is a deregulation

measure, in terms of providing an opportunity to small-scale digital

radio stations that serve communities and that cannot

realistically take on the cost of a local area multiplexers covers a

wide area, so in terms of looking at the demand for these services, we

know that as a technology that can work, at the gap in the legislation

that needs fixing. But the next point, as touched on in response to

that intervention, is if there is a demand for this type of system?

There's little point in passing a law just for the benefit, for a

point of argument, that the structure exists. It must have a

practical effect as well to justify the time of this Parliament.

At the moment, 400 community radio stations are in existence with a

huge range of diversity in there that point -- output and we have

real diversity in these registrations. Interestingly, there

are quite a number of British voters -- which is forces radio stations

and they operate as community radio stations, such as Aldershot radio

and another one on Salisbury Plain. They operate using community FM

licences. They would potentially benefit from this type of framework

being created. There are community stations that reflect the area they

are in, like hills FM in Coventry which I was once interviewed on and

things like Riviera FM in Torbay which normally ends up broadcasting

via the Internet as their sole digital output. If you could

broadcast on the Internet, you could quite quickly convert to using a

small-scale multiplex hence why I am keen for this structure to be

created. As I touched on earlier, we have hospital radio stations that

give more than something to listen to was staying on award, but are

actually part of the local community. Several already operate

as community FM stations. I would like to see them have the

opportunity, if they wish to, to have community DAB stations. They

are clearly not going to want to cover and approximately county sized

area. They are not going to look to compete with a national DAB station.

There should at least be a practical opportunity to go one to digital

radio if that is what they see as the natural progression for their

services. Can I congratulate my honourable friend and bringing

forward this excellence built to broaden choice for community

providers but would he also joined me in congratulating the volunteers

who work across the country in our community radio stations and would

also welcome the opportunity to expand their role in our

communities? Can I thank my honourable friend and next-door

neighbour for that intervention. You look at the way hospital radio

provides an opportunity for volunteers to be part of delivering

a service to patients but also to develop skills and talents that may

well sustain them into a paid career in the future. Thereafter stories of

people who have started off on community radio as a volunteer but

are then a talent that they can take so much further. I know she will

know of Torbay Hospital radio which regularly provides the outside

broadcast system for a number of community events and fares and it

isn't just sitting there. The image of hospital radio is someone sat in

a broom cupboard at the bottom of the hospital playing requests.

Actually, they get out in the community, do interviews and looks

to be more than just a station we listened to in a hospital bed and

one that really needs contribution. I thank my honourable friend very

much for giving way. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my office, I have a

young lady who volunteers at one of the local hospital radios and she

said more over what it gives them is them the chance to go round and

befriend patients. They are actually a conduit between the radio station

and patients. That makes them feel befriended, they take their shows to

the patient needs and it allows them to actually feel that somebody is

taking their views as important and also listening to the things that

they might want to listen to. Would he agree with me that actually when

you hear so much negative about hospitals, hospital radio provides

so much and can actually improve that element of loneliness we talk

about often? I thank her such a passionate

intervention on behalf of the hospital radios and I totally agree

with her point. It's not just about providing a song to listen to, it's

about providing the sense of community in hospital. Why would we

want to maintain a licensing that effectively bar is the possibility

of them going onto digital radio? Why would we want to say to them,

you can go digital, but you'll have to do it on the same basis as fairly

large regional radio stations? Or radio stations owned by fairly large

media conglomerates. Why would we do that, by not allowing this Bill a

second reading and allowing some small-scale transition to develop.

We want to do that, not just because of the technical point wouldn't it

be nice to have a better sound system, we want to do it because we

think it's right to give them the chance an opportunity if that's the

way they want to take the radio station in future. The whole point

of this Bill is to give options. It's an option to go onto DAB. It

doesn't make any requirements are then one and it doesn't require the

existing multiplexers breeders to do something to allow them to do that.

It just gives them the opportunity to do it themselves in a practical,

affordable way, but without this framework, they wouldn't be able to

do. So what exactly those reasons, we want to give them the

opportunity. In short, there are lots of examples of where this Bill

could help drive local service, great news and information from

South Uist to the Scilly Isles. This is about giving legislative

opportunity to form structure for that growth. Not asking the taxpayer

submit fund a load of small scale multiplexes across the country, I'm

not asking existing multiplexers owners to provide space on their

broadcast systems for these services. This is about giving an

opportunity. The one thing when I give a little bit of thought, is

where this type of service might in the future provide an opportunity to

help sustain local newsrooms. Across the country, many local newspapers

are struggling to maintain capacity for investigative journalism at a

local level. In the past, we rightly made sure there were very strong

restrictions between a potentially dominant local newspaper owner also

owning one of a handful of local FM licences. But with the Internet and

the growth of other News sources, means a wider platform may be needed

to sustain some level of professional journalism in an area,

or not just seeing it reduced to purely the BBC having a pool of

local journalists available. It's not something I'll dwell on in terms

of this Bill as such, but it's worth considering where smaller scale

digital radio operations might have a role in future. It's perhaps

something to consider for future policy. Thank you. You see the

taxpayer is not going to have to fund these small multiplexes. I'm

wondering where funds are going to come from. That has to be factored

into what each of these community radio stations would pay to use the

service. I thank her for that most helpful intervention. In essence, it

would be similar to how they fund FM transmissions, if they wish to get

the equipment and go onto the licence. There might be some

opportunity in terms of crowdfunding in other environments that could be

decided to provide support. In local authority might decide it wishes to

help provide infrastructure, and I emphasise that clearly, the

infrastructure. It's not the role of the council to provide a radio

station in the same way that it's not their role to provide a local

newspaper. Would it be funded commercially? Is it we've seen from

the trials that yes, there would be some demand from community radio

stations to provide this infrastructure. The costs have

fallen significantly. The actual cost to do it, particularly if

you've got a friendly tall building owner, it can be relatively little.

We've seen the community radio sector flourish on analogue, without

heavy tax poor support or subsidy. I didn't see any reason why the

community digital radio infrastructure would not develop in

a similar way. By creating the opportunity, by seeing some schemes

go ahead, it would give us a chance look what happens in reality. The

Minister might decide that in years to come, particularly if there was a

move to all digital, there may be an argument for support for community

stations to support to DAB. But it's about creating the opportunity for

them, then we can look at where new services have started. I can't see

any reason why in Torbay it would be any different from Bristol or

Taunton, if the opportunity is there, people seem to want to dig it

up. As we will perhaps touch on and we have touched on there, there may

be opportunities for groups like councils and universities to look at

providing the infrastructure to allow creativity to spawn in the

area. But this is about infrastructure giving an

opportunity, it is for others to use their sparks of entrepreneurship to

take specific ideas forward, not for the parliament to legislate on

whether there should be a community radio station in a particular area

on digital on whether a particular operator should be required to bid

up an aerial broadcasting system. In terms of the bill itself, as I've

already touched on several times, the Bill does not require any

station to move to DAB, neither does it require anyone who has an

existing multiplex to provide space on it. As I say, as I touched on in

an earlier intervention, there has been a debate at times about our

entire radio system going digital, but that is not the debate for

today, this is just about providing an opportunity to go digital, is not

about forcing them to go digital. I neither seek to interfere with the

current local or national multiplexes. Provision may in

particular include disqualification of those in a national or existing

local radio multiplex. Any license may also include provision to

provide services required by it to be done on a non-commercial

business, yet there is a small bit of flexibility to allow for unique

circumstances, where there might be a pressing case. Although I would

emphasise, if members have specific concerns, they are more than welcome

to join the Bill committee to look at this in and I know there will be

a debate on how exactly we get the law right on point. It is possible

in the Bill to reserve some space and four EE, and small scale

services, which might be of benefit in isolated communities, or where

there are limited opportunities to install new infrastructure. One

point that may come up in some locations, this would apply in

central London, there may only be a small number of tall buildings that

are the realistic option for installing this infrastructure, so

it might make sense in an individual location to have a requirement that

you can effectively as part of the licensing of it, state that they

must provide some access to another service. Again, that is not about

compelling people on existing infrastructure, is about ensuring

that, for example, we didn't have a circumstance where there were four

tall buildings in an area and one operator decided to agree with the

owners of those buildings that they were the only ones that had the

right to put broadcast equipment on top of them and then see a license

effectively excluding others. As I've repeated several times, their

bill is aimed at putting this together, without being so rigid

that unique circumstances cannot be accommodated. As stated in the

explanatory notes that go with this bill, the final details were

regulatory framework will be subject to a full consultation with the

industry. There is one final issue that I do need to address, in terms

of my own opening to this debate, is that I recognise this Bill does have

a targeted power to modify primary legislation by statutory instrument.

However, in justification of this, there are already presidents to

create lighter touch regulatory regimes were smaller audiovisual

services. A similar approach was taken by Parliament to create such

regimes by creating secondary legislation but community radio and

local television in 2004 and 2012. This builds on those precedents that

Parliament has already accepted, in what are strikingly similar

circumstances. The power in this bill will be used in a deregulatory

way and will not create additional burdens on existing multiplex

operators. Finally, to confirm that this power is only accessible by

affirmative order, in both houses before such modifications could come

into force. I am sure the Minister would wish to set up in his speech

similar points and to confirm this is the intention of the government.

This builds on precedents that have already been used on very similar

areas of policy development, and I believe therefore it is appropriate

to seek to have in this Bill, when we are dealing with something that

is very, very similar. To sum up, this Bill creates opportunities for

new creative travel to flourish, gets hundreds of local stations are

practical and affordable way to go digital, and as I now we will hear

from many members about to speak, the transfer more communities to

have a unique choice of radio stations that reflect the area they

live them. To not get this Bill its second reading would not be to help

any radio operator, it would not be to protect any interest and it would

not be to see things develop in a better way. It would merely be to

block growth and development of community radio stations and

restrict development in this industry in a way that we would find

absolutely ridiculous in any other sphere. This is about supporting

small community stations, it's about giving that the local opportunity

and it's about allowing broadcast radio to reflect the explosion of

creativity that is going on on the Internet. The days when we felt we

should strictly regulate and control very small numbers of operations, I

believe, are gone. That's why I hope all members will support this Bill

and that's why believe this Bill deserves a second reading and one

the Has full support today. The question is that the Bill now be

read a second time? Or shall we have? I think which each year from

Pauline Latham. Can I congratulate my honourable friend for making such

an informed speech, but also for giving so much of his time to

multiple interventions from many other members on this side of the

house. Sorry and very surprised that there are no members, apart from

front bench, on the other side of the house, because this particular

bill, I would've thought would affect single constituency in the

country. Resigned, yes, I think! I think every constituency could be

affected by this Bill, which I think is a very sensible Bill, and I want

also to pay tribute to my honourable friend for all the hard work and

effort he has Putin to bring forward this debate on such an subject. I

thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Would she not find it more

surprising that there was not more broad-based interest in the house on

2015, 90% of all stations, but 100% 2015, 90% of all stations, but 100%

of all local stations, contacted and had talks with their local MP? Yes,

I think it is disappointing. But it is a Friday and there are never that

many members coming to Parliament on Friday, because it is traditionally

a day we all spend an our constituencies.

I would just like my honourable friend to reflect on the fact that

Parliament is sitting. There is no such thing as a constituency Friday.

Parliament is sitting and as far as I am concerned, members of

Parliament, if at all possible, should be in Parliament. I know that

my honourable friend is usually here on a Friday and I have do say I am

guilty, as many others are, of using Friday as a day that I do normally

spend in my constituency, but I am delighted to be here today to

support my honourable friend for Torbay. Now, I have said that he has

brought forward this debate on a very important subject and polite

words are often said more out of custom but I cannot say them more

genuinely today, as I know my honourable friend slept in

Parliament last night to try to get this bill through, such was his

dedication. As he pointed out afterwards, the reality of sleeping

in the royal palace is far less glamorous than it sounds. I hope for

his sake he has had a better nights sleep before the second reading of

the bill today than he had when he tried to introduce it. I don't know

exactly how he passed the hours while he waited to get his bill

submitted, but it would have been extremely apt, given the bill's

subject, if he had listened to digital radio to keep him company

and pass away the time. Digital has and is in so many sectors across the

UK so important for radio. In the third quarter of 2016, just over

half of all radio listening, 45.5%, was on a digital platform. That

figure will increase. The radio industry itself predicts that if

current trends continue, the number will be 50% by the end of 2017. I

would have thought that was a fairly Conservative view. Small-scale DAB,

the kind of digital radio that this bill deals with, is especially

important. Industry data shows 60% of UK homes today have at least one

DAB radio and the DAB terrestrial platform accounts for around three

quarters of all digital radio listening. These figures underline

the importance of the area and make it more important than ever that

small-scale ditched all radio becomes a viable option for as many

stations as possible. I actually listened to radio Derby recently and

the digital platform and it is a better signal than I got and I'm

very pleased that they have been able to go on to that platform as

well as continuing on FM. Unfortunately smaller radio stations

currently face the major disadvantage when it comes to

digital radio. At present, the cost and licensing scheme are not

conducive to allowing small-scale radio services access to the digital

radio network. As with anything, costs do vary but Digital

specialists estimate the cost of a mono service is between 3500 and

?5,000 per month. That could mean around ?60,000 per year. Needless to

say, that is a pretty hefty sum for a small station to have do pay, with

the consequence that these smaller stations that want to operate are

priced out of the market. If we contrast that with Ofcom's estimates

that using small-scale DAB would allow stations to access the digital

market for just ?9,000, that is a huge difference and makes it much,

much more accessible for small stations. Alongside the cost, the

current climate creates a number of other key problems for smaller

stations. Local DAB multiplexes exist and are used effectively by

several stations, like, as I said, radio Derby, which sits under East

Staffordshire as well as Derbyshire as a county. There size means they

are not suitable for smaller stations that want to switch to DAB

and can't. Additionally, stations could encounter problems in practice

because there is not always sufficient space multiplexes for

them. Providers know they face a fall in audience numbers and

advertising revenue if DAB comes -- becomes the norm and they quite

obviously want to change that. Ofcom says there is a major demand for

change and that appropriate legislation will be followed up with

action. In 2016, they state that there is a significant need for

small-scale DAV -- DAB and things need to be more commercially

sustainable. That statement comes after a trial in which 100 small

stations were able to successfully broadcast on DAB for the first time.

Those stations came from a wide range of backgrounds, providing an

even more compelling case that more small stations could make a

success... I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Talking about

community radios, which sometimes have dwindling listeners, audience

numbers, De she also think this might be an opportunity for print

media to have the broadcast from their newsrooms, because we know

what pressure they are under as well? Yes, I entirely agree with my

honourable friend. For instance, locally, the Derby Telegraph is

losing its readership, sadly, because it is a very good local

paper, and I think the web is not exactly conducive to local papers

because they have to do so much local advertising which intrudes on

the media and the reading of the reports. I do believe that if they

could broadcast as well, that would produce more competition and help

other local media to get into the act. Would the honourable lady give

way? Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way as well. A lot

of local newspapers also now try to move very firmly into using much

more activity online as well. Does my honourable friend not think that

one of the things that could also happen is that not only could there

be a community licence but it could also appear on the Internet, too?

Yes, and I'm sure that would be the case. I thank my honourable friend

for intervening at that point. The compelling case is that all small

stations could make a success of using digital radio and the initial

trial was actually so successful that it was extended for two years.

Alongside test the viability and effectiveness done inside the UK,

the international use of small-scale DAB offer another indication of the

benefits of the expansion of this new technology. It has been used

successfully abroad, with stations using it on air in both Switzerland

and France. Given the established track record, we can see that this

bill would be helpful. It would make a tangible difference for an

estimated 450 stations who could take advantage of small-scale DAB

and I think we heard from my honourable friend and from

interventions that it was hospital radio -- even hospital radio could

get in on this, widen their listenership, which I think is

incredibly important. We have talked about hospital radio. Can I talk

about radio in universities and colleges? Run Shaw College, which Mr

Deputy Speaker you know very well, has a fantastic radio station which

broadcasts at the college but of course it has so many links with

local businesses and community enterprises that it could take

advantage of this new technology and deep proposals in this bill. Do you

not agree? Yes, of course, and of course that also means that it can

be used as part of a degree to give the students the opportunity of real

live practice on radio, which they would not normally have. It is

something which I'm sure radio Derby and the University of Derby would

embrace, because they have already embraced taking over the local

theatre so that they can give students real live practice of

producing plays, acting in place as a practical example, so that when

they go into the world of work as people working in the local

university radio would have when they went to university, -- when

they were two interviews, they would have real life experience and we

know that is really important in interviews as employers. I think it

provides an opportunity to alter the current legislation and the

framework for multiplex licensing as set out in the broadcasting act in

1996, to introduce a lighter touch regulatory framework. Greater

numbers of small radio stations could expand into a digital market

which do not currently -- they do not currently have access to. I

particularly commend how the proposed approach has adopted

features of effective secondary legislation which has successfully

modified primary legislation, but jazz community radio order 2004, by

allowing the 1996 act to be modified rather than replaced. This slight

but very important distinction will not only make things simpler, it

will also allow for the creation of a new licensing regime which will

take account of the needs of smaller stations. Whilst the use of

small-scale DAB is relatively novel as a form of technology,

implementing this bill fits into the Government's long-term radio

strategy, published in 2014 in the Department for Culture, Media and

Sport's Digital radio action plan. That plan recognise that radio is

changing and that Government needs to respond to this by facilitating a

digital friendly environment where 50% of all listening is digital. The

paper also states that the transition to digital and the

changes the Government makes should always be driven by the listener. I

would add that to some extent the change must also be driven by the

consent of radio station providers themselves. It is clear from Ofcom

trials that smaller stations really do want to access the digital market

and we must not ignore the views. As well as setting out its digital

criteria, the paper stresses the major contribution that radio makes

to the UK, outlining that 90% of the adult population choose into eggs in

excess of 1 billion listening hours a week. That allows them exposure to

an endless variety of cultural topics and the chance to listen to a

myriad of fantastic music genres. From acid jazz to cite Deco. I'm not

sure if I have pronounced that right, but I probably haven't! I

must admit that when I was probing the Internet rather in-depth in

order to find a musical genre beginning with said, it was

difficult, I was very pleased to find the music of which I speak. The

fact this legislation could lead to economic growth and job creation

cannot be dismissed. If we have so many more digital stations, not only

will it give real value to the experience of this young people, as

I presume it will be mainly young people who take it up, with that

experience they can then go on to bigger, brighter things in the

larger broadcasting corporations, whether they are the BBC or

commercial operations. That cannot be dismissed. It will create many

jobs. At the moment, the entire radio sector is worth an estimated

?1.2 billion and employs 17,000 people. Making sure that legislation

which affects the sector is helpful and up to date is a very important

responsibility and one that should encourage us to introduce this bill

today and I am sure the Minister will have many of these aspects in

mind when he responds later. I therefore once again congratulate my

honourable friend for introducing this bill and urged the House to

support its second reading today. Let us make sure that his sleepless

nights were definitely worth it. Absolutely. David Nuttall. It is a

great pleasure as always to follow my honourable friend, the Member for

Mid Derbyshire. I want to start this morning by congratulating my

honourable friend, the Member for Torbay, for the very short way in

which he introduced this debate on what is quite a technical subject.

It has the capacity to be quite a dry subject and he brought it to

life this morning in a very entertaining way. That is whilst

dealing with all the technical aspects in a very confident manner.

This bill is one which is ideally suited, I would venture to suggest,

for the private members Bill procedure. It does not seem to

impose any cost on the taxpayer and it deals with a relatively narrow

area of the law. One which has the bill seeking to do with a problem

which has arisen that could not have been foreseen at the time of the

original legislation being drawn up because of the developments in

technology and the advances in software and the production in the

price of the equipment, really, as well, which is something I will come

onto. All this has left a gap in the

legislation, which this Bill seeks to fill. I will give way. I am

grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way. Does he not think the

other opportunity for this legislation would not have been

through the Digital Economy Bill? I am grateful to have for that

intervention. It would seem that the nature of this Bill could have been

included in the Digital Economy Bill. Maybe there Minister, when he

addresses us, we'll be able to explain why it wasn't, given that it

is undoubtedly an area which needs addressing. I should say at the

outset that I wish to support the Bill, I have no wish to scupper it.

I do have concerns about the precise detail, which I will come onto. But

in broad principle, I agree that this Bill is needed. Will he agreed

with me that the borders of this particular aspect of the law being

dealt with through the Private members Bill Root, rather than being

part of the government Digital economy Bill, is that it makes it

clear it's about resolving this issue for community radio stations,

rather than it being linked to broadcasting and media regulation?

My own view is it could have been dealt with without any undue

side-effects in the Digital Economy Bill. But we are where we are and we

do have this separate Bill. Perhaps we will jump onto a point that I was

going to make any way, which is that this Bill of itself is, we might

politely called, and enabling Bill. It will be of no benefit to anyone

unless it is driven for words after it becomes an act, after it features

the statute book. By the Minister, who I am sure will want to take

advantage of the powers, by making an order and doing something about

it. The Bill itself would help anybody, it's an enabling Bill. For

it to be of any use at all to man or beast, it needs the Minister and his

team and department to bring the appropriate order as soon as

possible, I hope, if this Bill does reach the statute book, to cover all

the various aspects that are set out in clause one. And to give those

powers to off com, so that they can set about licensing new

broadcasters, so that the broadcasters can enjoy what some of

those who have taken part in the trials have already benefited form.

Basically, this Bill is about making it easier to broadcast digital

radio, at a time, at the time when the original act was passed, it was

something that was very new, and it was only thought possible that it

could be dealt with on a large-scale, on the national and

countywide scale. But since that act was passed, it has become possible

now, through advances in technology, or smaller scale multiplexes to

operate and to provide opportunities for community radio stations and

smaller scale commercial stations to operate. I should declare an

interest, in that I am a very avid user of my digital radio. In fact, I

carry it with me everywhere. It is at this very moment in my coat

pocket and I very rarely go anywhere without my digital radio. We are not

allowed to use props, as the honourable gentleman knows, but it

is a wonderful thing. It's my second one, because the first one broke

down. I wonder if he would give way on that note. I wonder if he might

share with us what sort of radio stations he listens to and whether

any local community stations are among his particular favourites? Al

be honest, it's usually Radio 4 radio five radio five Sports Extra,

particularly when it's carrying the cricket commentary. I'll certainly

give way to the cat back minister. -- Minister. Does he agree that many

people carry radios with them, particularly on a Friday so that

they can listen to his speeches in parliaments? I'm sure that's not the

case! Of course, my honourable friend in the previous intervention

raised the question as to whether or not I use it to listen to community

radio stations, but of course, there are very few of those operating. And

this Bill, if it reaches the statute book and is then an act and is

followed up by an order, and some activity from community radio

stations, it will enable better be even more stations on my Little

radio than there are already. There are already plenty on there. I also

made sure that my last car, when I bought it a few years ago, Hadi

Digital radio in it. And is now virtually all cars have it as

standard. Then it was an option that you had to pay a little bit extra if

you wanted a digital radio, mainly because Test Match Special was no

longer broadcast on longwave and in order to reach it, you had to have

radio five Sports Extra. Would he not agree with me that this is one

of the biggest changes since Parliament last substantive movement

to broadcast regulations, is the spread of DAB radio into the car. I

was an early adopter back in 2003, I got the digital radio I have at

home, but seeing it in most new cars on the market, it creates the need

for community radio stations to be there as well as the larger

stations. He is absolutely right. There has been an enormous increase

in the use of digital radio in the past few years. And while I fully

understand the concerns of those who operate on the FM frequencies, it

seems to be that inexorably, we will be moving towards a situation, just

as we have a television, where radio will operate in a Digital space in

years to come. As members will be aware, it has been in the news this

week that it has been touched on earlier, that Norway is planning is

to become the first nation to move its radio stations onto an entirely

digital platform, or that the next few months. It will take many years

and I hope we proceed very cautiously, because I am very

conscious that there will particularly be elderly people who

don't have access to modern equipment. But we managed it with

television, and it seems to me that it wouldn't be on the wit of man for

us to be able to manage it in due course of the radio. But it will

need us to proceed very carefully and to make sure that all the

technical research is properly done. To be fair, of column are on with

this and it's something that if there's time, I will touch on

briefly. That the report that was issued last year by off,

specifically refers to the feasibility of being able to

accommodate existing commercial and community stations, which currently

transmit on analogue, onto DAB. One concern I do have about the Bill is

clause one, subsection four, small sea, which requires, states that but

it would require small scale multiplexes services to be provided

on a non-commercial basis. I see no reason for this, personally, I see

no reason why we should try and restrict it to non-commercial

services, as my honourable friend said in his opening speech. The

costs of moving straight onto the larger multiplexes could be very

prohibitive for any start-up operation, and what I want to do is

to see more competition and to see the costs of entry reduced, so that

the barriers to entry are as low as possible. And it seems to me that

restricting this and including a reference to a non-commercial only

is something which is not necessarily, and something which, if

this Bill proceeds, I will be looking at further. I thank the

honourable member for briefly giving way. The section in relation to it

says, it may, in particular. While it alludes that there may be a

requirement that service is provided on a non-commercial basis, that is

not a must. I except that, and in fact, in making that intervention,

my honourable friend draws attention to another point which I was going

to make about the Bill, and that is that in many ways, it raises more

questions than it answers. Because of the use of language, it doesn't

make it clear what is going to happen. I hope when we hear from the

Minister, he may give us a more clarity about exactly how open we

are going to see this play out, because there are competing

interests, I can understand that there will be the commercial

interests that the larger operators will want to see it made easier for

new competitors to join the market. But I don't see that as any reason

not to allow new entrants to the market. More competition would be a

good thing for them. But I particularly support this Bill

because I want to see my all area be able to benefit from possibly having

its own commercial or non-commercial radio station, a community station.

There is already, order has been in the past, operating in the town,

something called Project 29 Radio, which I have appeared on a

small-scale station, operating from the centre of the town, but the

small staff working on a volunteer basis, running community programmes.

It's the sort of small-scale community radio station that I see

being able to benefit from the future, if this Bill goes ahead, and

that it is made easier for small operators to be given a digital

licence, and for them to be able to operate with modern equipment, which

by definition, will be the latest available, because it will be new as

up-to-date, broadcasting over the relatively small area, smaller than,

for example, the whole of Greater Manchester or the whole of

Lancashire. I'm very conscious of the fact that there are many members

who have given time to this debate this morning, so I don't want to

extend my remarks and Julie. In conclusion, I would want to refer

to the trials allowed last year by Ofcom. My honourable friend touched

on these in his remarks. There were three different types of trial

allowed. They covered different sorts of equipment. Without going

into detail, they raised from 9000 as the cheapest to ?17,000. It gives

some idea of the cost of the equipment that was involved.

Different licensees were given different equipment to try it out,

to see how efficiently it would operate. The results are all set out

in the Ofcom report. It is a lengthy document and will take some time to

read through. It is worth it for those interested to study that

document because it does set out the detail of the nature of the

equipment and how successful it was. More importantly, perhaps, the

report concluded at the end of the report that the typical scope for

the wider roll-out of the DAB. Although we can solve the

problem of the legislative framework and how we create a licensing

regime, there is a problem around the frequency blocks on which DAB

operates. They are fixed, there is not much we can do about what is

there. They currently use VHF band three blocks. It is these

frequencies which provide the spectrum to support the existing

multiplexes and the local commercial multiplexes. When Ofcom looked at

small-scale DAB trials, it was announced that the first entry would

be required because DAB receivers could also be used for lower free

causes than are available in the UK. They also carried out an initial

study as to whether it would be technically feasible to develop a

future platform that might provide an opportunity for those smaller

community, commercial stations which currently transmit only one analogue

radio to move to DAB. There is a chance to transfer everything onto

DAB. We need those we can see is available to be able to do it. Ofcom

conclude that in most areas, it should be technically possible to

develop the frequency allowance for small-scale DAB. They do say that

more detailed planning and optimisation will be required to

develop the frequency plan which could be put into practice. I will

certainly give way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

Would he agree that the point of this Bill before us today is about

that, to enable smaller multiplexers to set up and produce a death across

the country? I would agree. That is what this Bill is seeking to do. As

I mentioned earlier, the Bill itself will not achieve that. It will need

action from the Department. Hopefully the Minister in his

remarks will give the House the insurance that his Department will

work speedily in bringing this forward. With that, I will conclude

my remarks and wish this Bill well this morning.

I'd like to begin by congratulating my noble friend for bringing this

Bill. In all other research that he's done, it seems like quite a

completed Bill. It is very technical. Many of us who don't have

an engineering or science background are discussing this matter. We're

always running to catch up. I'm absolutely delighted that we have

this Bill this morning because we are going some way to anticipating

the future. I've got an admission to make, I am an absolute radio nut.

There have been periods in my life, sometimes years and years, where I

have always had a radio. The only image voices I heard apart from a

family work on short wave weightier. -- short wave radio. I'm now a

convert to digital. I know we have been discussing this morning about

the transfer from FM and the other frequencies. This can be somewhat

controversial. Norway is due this week to go completely to DAB. We

have to accept, and I know that my honourable friend has said this is

not about switching off other frequencies. My other honourable

friend mentioned that there might actually be technical difficulties

that. I will happily give way. She is or was very generous. On the

point of the switchover, does she feel that that isn't opportunity for

other countries to watch what Norway are doing, to watch and learn as we

take our radio forward into the future. That is an excellent point.

There are huge geographical and I'm a graphic differences between Norway

and us. But we should be watching and learning to see what happens. Is

the reason why Norway moving away from analogue forms is they do not

have test match special. Probably! I wouldn't dare to make any comment.

So the... I would give way, and then make some progress. The game of

cricket is a perfect example of the way we are approaching this whole

particular situation, we are quite happy to listen on Radio 2 a match

that will take five days to flow out its course and similarly it is good

that we are approaching change from analogue to digital as a slow and

measured way. I would agree... There is a balance, isn't there? We have

to do it in an revolution reword a. -- revolutionary way. There is a

great barrier that exists at the moment. In this Bill, we have seen

the costs for smoking in the radio is prohibitive. Different figures

have been raised. Looking at non-London multiplexes, around ?3500

a month. That is too high for community radio TV racing. -- to be

raising. There are opportunities it can offer to businesses and the

communities. In the day and age when we can have groups and entrepreneurs

setting up from their laptops and mobile phones, it is to be affecting

where we're going in other spheres of life. Ideally, you want to focus

on community radio. We had woken about community radio in our own

constituencies. Honourable members have said to me, we are lucky that

we do have a radio station called Festival Radio. Mr dippy speaker

knows because his seat you to take in Leyland, the Leyland Festival is

the absolute highlight of Leyland life. It has had a long history of

Festival making, tanks, buses, the Pope Mobil. All of these things are

stored in the day come easy in Leyland. -- in the vehicle Museum.

The festival is a joyous occasion when we can make the most of what is

fantastic about Leyland and its heritage. Ireland are watching the

festival as a little girl. I now have the honour and pleasure... Back

in 2015, a group of local people came together and they wanted to

celebrate this. They wanted a moment and focus for this. Between April

and June 2015. The station came to FM in 2015. For other honourable

members, their -- they may hate never have heard of Farrington and

Moss side. We have these countywide multiplexes. There are sometimes

stories in Lancaster or in other parts which I cannot identify with.

These hyper local networks really appeal to people. There is community

involvement and it brought together people across generations and

backgrounds. This is the point I want to make in this speech. It

develop transferable skills. As my honourable friend mentioned, it is a

training ground. During the making of Festival radio, they developed

transferable skills such as marketing and production. They learn

from the other people. People from all different backgrounds. It was

peer-to-peer learning. It was a partnership. Ron Shaw College has

its own excellent radio station and other committee groups as well. It

is an opportunity for businesses to talk and for artists and performers

to have proper on-air experience in broadcast.

I know my first ever radio experience was as a candidate in the

2010 election and I was interviewed by De Vreede heel. I am sure the

only person listening was my agent and my grandma, but was still a

great experience for me. These interview opportunities and all of

this was a really fantastic sense of community cohesion that grew up

outside of Leland Festival radio. I am very happy to give way. She has

been very generous this morning, thank you. The honourable lady

touches on the value of community radio and I know that she is a great

advocate for tackling isolation. We cheer agree with me that community

radio is an excellent means of reaching into some of the most

vulnerable and isolated members of our communities? My honourable

friend anticipate the next part of my speech. It's almost as though she

had seen it in the tearoom, which she has not. I'm buried glad that

the point I'm making industries about isolation and loneliness are

getting through. That's exactly the point I would like to make next.

Just to give a slight conclusion on Leland Festival radio and its

excellent work, although they are carrying on broadcasting breakfast

programmes with Keith Bradshaw as the presenter, it's very limited.

The aim for the group is to be a permanent community Radio 4 on

Leland firing ten and Moss side. I now want to go on to the point that

my honourable friend made, because I believe that hyper local radio

really does have a role in combating loneliness and isolation. Members

will know, because I had been raising it that along with the

honourable lady the member from Leeds West, she and I are carrying

on the work was started by a late colleague Jo Cox. Harriet loneliness

commission will be launched in Speaker 's house on Tuesday the 21st

of January. My honourable friend the member for Bury North says he always

has his read your with him and I think we recognise that radio is a

very intimate medium. It really can speak to us and I know from friends

and family who have suffered and I know I when I have been very lonely

in my life, I have had the radio on. It makes us feel a bit safer and as

though we have other people there. Really valid points about radio as a

friend, certainly in the night. I know that people turn to the radio

the wake-up and switch it on. But also I know that many local radio

stations have regulars that phone in and many of these are lonely and

individual people that are finding some relationship building with the

radio station and they serve an excellent purpose progress. My

honourable friend with a history and broadcasting nose is only too well.

We talk about local radio. It has such an important role in the

community and is hyper local radio, I think it already does that. The

provisions in this Bill will allow a flourishing of hyper local radio,

because the point I am talking about loneliness and isolation, the point

is that mediums of technology are useful only if they actually lead to

face-to-face context, because as human beings we need the contact of

others just as much as we need food and water. This is the point of it.

It's not just about Facebook and Twitter, which we all talk about.

Radio has to have that, we need to be able to connect to people. If you

have a radio station broadcasting to a feud thousand people, those worked

risk of being very lonely and isolated, the old, the infirm,

people suffering from mental health problems, disabled, and they cannot

travel very far, the hearing about community events and businesses

which are very close to them, then it will be able to get to them and

that will be great advantage of that. There really is much to plot

in this Bill. I have some questions which I hope the minister will

respond to in the way of, how do these things work in practice? In

terms of, I know they are being attached to high buildings, because

my honourable friend keeps talking about high buildings, many of us

don't have high buildings in our constituencies. The other thing and

forgive me if I have missed something, but often when new things

are picked up any time, there are often worries about it. I do think

this Bill has such great potential to expand community radio, which

plays such an important role in helping to Nitties to build together

and to foster good relationships. I am thinking again as I have

mentioned, the things about Leland Festival radio which have really

done sterling work in our team in Italy and I hope that this Bill

would give it just those opportunities to fulfil a stream of

being a full-time radio station. Mr Deputy Speaker, it's an absolute

pleasure to follow on from my honourable friend and also I would

like to congratulate my honourable friend from Torbay for securing a

spot in the Chamber. I have to declare an interest, I used to write

songs in the 1980s. Which always cheers at the colleagues on my side

of the bench. This is a very serious issue that we are discussing today,

because... I shall give Ray to my honourable friend. Is my honourable

friend is still getting royalties from the 80s? Not correct that would

be telling. If you're going to name a question like that, you have to

name the chin that you're referring to. Digital radio. As this Bill

covers, affects areas of the UK that should really be honed in on from a

very, very long time ago. Before I alluded to my honourable friend from

Torbay about the previous Secretary of State for culture media and

sport, when he had an ambition to have digital radio take over from

analogue. As my honourable friend stated, this would be an optional

issue or a request from the broadcasting industry, but it is

something that must be taken seriously. If you think in my area,

we have a feud good radio stations in the area, but we do have the baby

radio, which on its website states there is no solution for them to

have digital radio at this moment in time, yet they do cover areas which

are quite low-lying in my constituency, leading all the way up

into the Lake District and all the way touching on the Scottish

Borders. It does a new website that if you want to find a coverage area,

click on the application. However, I do think with this option that my

honourable friend has put forward for the broadcasting industry to

consider, this would hope my local radio station in measurable way and

help the people in those communities to be kept in touch with what is

actually going on around them. Last year, about 12 months ago, we were

hit with the most horrendous floods we've ever seen. There was a power

cut. The only lifeline that we did have in the whole area as to what

was going on was our local B radio. I thank my honourable friend

forgiving way. I would like to reiterate today of all days how

important that last point is, because we have along the east coast

and particularly in Suffolk a real challenge today with the possibility

of flooding and as he says and as the Right honourable friend for

purple Valley has often said, when flooding comes, there is not much

warning. To have community radio is enabled to give more information to

the public is certainly a good thing, is it not? I do agree and I

do think my honourable friend for that very helpful intervention,

because that leads onto what I'm about to speak about next. What

happened was they also did as well and they were running a whole

operation of a laptop on the first floor. As my honourable friend did

allude to in his speech, laptops can come in very handy for this kind of

broadcasting. What are a problem at this moment in time, which has been

highlighted by my right honourable friend, is that the cost of this

could be prohibited, because it is quite costly to get these kinds of

licences, however, with demand, costs can be drives down. I hope

that the Minister will look on this proposal favourably, because we must

go forward with progression. If we don't, it is at our cost. We have

had the radio industry is subject to certain problems over the years, not

least not having this helped out in the first place. If you think about

what happened to my local radio station, if they had had digital

radio, the aerial areas that they broadcast to would have been better

informed as to what was actually going on with their localities. It

wasn't just my constituency that was affected, it was a constituency next

order of Lancaster. Also constituencies further up into

Carlisle. I do know that I had a meeting during these floods with the

Minister Stewart. Not many people knew that the minister was actually

running around the vicinity trying to sort out the problems and he was

working very hard. Purely and simply, because the communications

broke down in the area and he had a power cut in my vicinity that lasted

nearly two days. You can see, radio is a lifeline for these communities

and we should be looking to enhance the industry and not curtail it. I

do think that this measure that my honourable friend has done today is

a very welcome measure indeed. I do think that the larger broadcasters

such as the BBC, would also welcome this, because it would actually

drive the cost down as well. All the radio stations, I hope if they are

listening to this speech, I'm not being more favourable to one and the

other and I hope that have mentioned you all. I must a plug in for it

Beyond Radio. I'm sure they will be losing that in their jingles.

Digital radio is the future and it is for the right reason that the

honourable member for Ali when he was in the Secretary of State, he

wanted to push forward this particular project, but as yet we

have yet to see it. I would love to give way to my honourable friend. Q

refers to what the right Honourable member suggested at the time I think

when he was the Cabinet minister responsible for the area of policy.

Whilst this is not about that specific way, if ever there was the

move to digital, we need to make sure all three layers of radio are

represented. National, community, local. Might I pay homage to my

right honourable friend for researching this Bill thoroughly and

speaking for one hour without notes on this particular issue. I was in

the music industry once, it pains me to say I didn't know half of what my

honourable friend was saying. However, it's a big help to the

industry as a whole and ensure that they would welcome what he is trying

to do. With that, Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for your time.

Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm delighted to follow my honourable friend and it's

amazing what we discover about her colleagues during these debates and

I'm intrigued to find out some of those songs that have been written

by my honourable friend. Perhaps he might share that with those later.

Having spent very much of my life as a broadcaster and journalist with

many years involvement in radio stations of every kind, from

community to local to commercial and BBC national radio, I'm really

delighted to support my honourable friend from Torbay in bringing this

Bill and I congratulate him for bringing it forward, for all the

work that he has done and in particular for the very clear case

that he is made today. I think even those who don't understand very much

about the technicalities, even I don't understand a lot of those, he

has made it very clear. I must reiterate the comments made from my

right honourable friend that it is disappointing that the benches are

so empty on the Opposition side, particularly amongst our Scottish

colleagues, because I do believe that if we can bring this Bill

forward, it will help those of every mode areas where it is quite

difficult to get the correct signals. At the Welsh, I agree.

Sorry, the Welsh are here. Apologies, said. A Welsh present is

here. You are well represented compared to a Scottish colleagues. I

take that back. I'm a keen supporter of local media

including newspapers. That includes local radio stations. Anything that

can be done must be applauded. I understand that that will friend, I

am a fanatical radio nut. I go everywhere with my radio. We have a

radio in almost every room! You might think that is a bit sad. I

will give way. I thank a forgiving way. One of the affections I would

make is that I listened to the radio on my way from the constituency,

because I want to listen to the cricket and to the cat macro

archers. -- Archers. I could not be without my radio because of the

Archers. I listen to the same episode multiple times a day! I am a

big local radio fan as well. Like my honourable friend, as soon as I get

back to my constituency in my car, I switch on the local radio so I can

catch up instantly and what the news is there. Of course, the way we now

listen to radio is changing. TV has ordered one through a big

transition, and now so is radio. Statistics show that many households

in the UK already own a DAB radio. This year, terribly exciting, I got

a DAV system. -- DAB system. I have to put my glasses on to get

to the touch button thing. DAB systems are increasingly important

as features in cars. That is obviously where I listen to my local

radio a lot. In this new DAB world, I must reiterate for the

uninitiated, we're not talking about the dap fish. Dab are a wonderful

fish that are great to feed children and are very cheap. We are not

talking about them, we're talking about radio. I want to explain that

small radio stations are really important. This Bill will help them

have a better future, and for the better under resourced stations to

have a better future. They offer a very high delocalised news. This is

the news you do not get from elsewhere. You don't get that from

the National stations. You often don't get it from the regional

stations can, because they are covering bigger areas now. That is

really interesting. For example, in Taunton, we have just welcomed the

fact that the governorate has just announced Taunton as a garden town.

But what a derelict place for the public in Taunton to interact about

what they think of that. That was well covered on the local stations.

Also, what better place to carry out a poll on which day we should have

Somerset day. It was huge audience interaction across all the different

stations about what people thought about that. And they local

initiative called Art Taunton. It is trying to encourage culture and art

in Taunton. We need to up our offer of art and culture. Perhaps the

minister might take this on board, being in this particular area. He

may even do an interview on the radio. It is important. It is

important, as has been touched on by my honourable friend, who is just

leaving, in times of crisis. Local stations were invaluable in the

terrible time of flight in 2013 - 14, when huge areas of Somerset

flooded and it was the local radio that was the linchpin of

transmitting the news, of people phoning in and offering help, people

caught making where they should go and what they should do. It was

local radio that played a key role in that time. It is also really

important when it snows, for transferring information, but Italy

for the local schools. All of the local schools use the local radio to

tell people whether they are open or closed. Everybody turns on the radio

to find out. It is invaluable in times of emergency. That is

important. Also think of local guide you and you cannot help but think of

travel reports. You know, is this not where all about honourable

friends get travel information, about what is happening in rush

hour, whether to use that key road in Somerset, the A358. If one hears

that that road is log jammed, one void it. It is a marvellous service.

I hope we will never have to hear those messages again shortly

because, this week, I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State for

Transport has just reiterated his commitment to upgrading that road.

Hopefully, we will all start not hearing about that so much now local

radio. I will mention some of the excellent community radio stations

in my constituency. One is Tone FM. It is very good for its traffic

news. This station has an incredible audience of 22,000 people. That is

incredible for a small town community radio station. They are

operating on a shoestring. I used to due a regular gardening slot for

them. We had a lot of fun but also imparted a lot of knowledge and

information. I will never forget the time... Are usually took in

something for the audience to guess what we were talking about. I once

took in an elephant garlic. If the members have ever seen one of those,

it is a bit drastic thing to see and using cooking. Much guesswork went

on about my Jerusalem artichokes. We get a lot of interaction about what

is going on in Parliament, and people this into the pod casts, it

is a great way of disseminating information. All of the people that

work in this station, it would not run without them. Darren McCullum