09/02/2017 House of Commons


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09/02/2017

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including backbench business debates on Israeli settlements.


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support, they are often from vulnerable areas and we ensure that

:00:00.:00:00.

the local authorities have that. We should be proud of our response.

:00:00.:00:10.

Before we proceed to business question, I would like to congreat

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late the member from new port West on his 82nd birthday and on reaching

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the mid-point of his parliamentary career.

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Business question. Valerie Vaz.

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Can I ask the leader of the House to tell the House the forthcoming

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business? Mr Speaker, perhaps just before I

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answer the lady's question, I would associate myself with your

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congratulations to the honourable gentleman, the member for Newport

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West. Monday the 20th fabric, remaining

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stages of the conflict builds, followed by the consideration of

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amendments to the high-speed rail bill. Remaining stages of the

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criminal finance bill, the uprating order 2017 and the draft guaranteed

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minimum pension. Wednesday the 22nd of February, motions relating to the

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police grant and local government finance reports. Thursday 23rd

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February, opposition day allotted half day. There will be a debate on

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a motion in the name of the Democratic Unionist Party, followed

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by business to be nominated by the backbench business committee. Friday

:01:42.:01:47.

the 24th, Private member 's bills. The of the week commencing the 27th

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of February will include on the Monday, estimates date, first

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allotted day to be confirmed by the liaison committee. I should also

:01:57.:02:04.

like to the House that on the 23rd and 27th of fabric, business will be

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as follows. Thursday the 23rd, debate on publicly accessible

:02:11.:02:13.

amenities for disabled people, followed by a debate on the second

:02:14.:02:16.

report from the transport committee on the road traffic law enforcement.

:02:17.:02:24.

Monday 27th of February, debate on and each petition relating to

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attacks on NHS medical staff. Can't add that the leader of the house for

:02:34.:02:36.

his statement and can I add my birthday wishes to the honourable

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member, my predecessor, and to say that I did buy his book and I found

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it very, very handy when I first came into the house. Good eye asked

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the leader of the House will they be business questions on Thursday 20th

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of July, or will that the allocated as a pre-recess adjournment date?

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Could the leader of the House also say whether there is going to be any

:03:01.:03:06.

progress on a debate in government time on restoration and renewal? In

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absence of the member for Gateshead, I noticed the leader of the house

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has appointed an opposition day on the 23rd of February. Will it be a

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regular occurrence and can he ensure that the debate is listed by the

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backbench committee could also have eight-day allocated to them? Mr

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Speaker it was 15 years ago the Maastricht Treaty was signed this

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week and in the same week in responding and respecting the

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referendum we have voted to trigger Article 50 and leave the EU. In July

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the Prime Minister said Brexit means Brexit. On this side we asked, what

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does that mean and do you have a plan and a white paper? Seven months

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later we have a speech at Lancaster house, a month later we have a White

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Paper, which is the speech with a few grass. Can I ask the leader of

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the house, on page nine it states that the government will afford a

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White Paper on the great repeal bill. Is that a further White Paper

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and can he ensure that if it is published, it won't be done on the

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day of the Queen 's speech? There is a prospect of losing 32,000 jobs and

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services if we leave the single market. And we have a statement on

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what the government will do to secure those job and secure London's

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place as the number one financial centre. The eeb budget is mentioned

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twice, both times at section 8.5 one. Will the government be

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revealing more words on the budget and more importantly, figures in a

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statement. And can we have a definition of frictionless

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negotiations which appears 12 times. And is the vote that we just had

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frictionless, which really means meaningless? It was a sad day when

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the government voted down all the amendments said the Prime Minister

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cwah said the bill was an amended. The Prime Minister delivered for her

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party, but not for England, Northern Ireland, Scotland or Wales. The

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government will want to take notes in negotiations because the Serious

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Fraud Office has found that Rolls-Royce admitted it use

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multi-million pound rights to secure export orders and received financial

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support from the government's the agency in 1991 when it paid a $2

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million bribe to win a contract in Indonesia. There is a review. Can we

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have a statement to ensure what safeguards there will be as the

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government negotiates trade deals around the world. At Prime

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Minister's Questions yesterday the Leader of the Opposition asked the

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Prime Minister treatise whether a special deal was offered to sorry

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for social care. The Prime Minister was dismissive and did not answer

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the question. If there was no special deal for Surrey, why did the

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Prime Minister not confirm this? I and other members want a memorandum

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of understanding to secure our libraries and social care, so could

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we have a statement on sorry gates? Turning to house matters, the member

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for Barnsley Central has had his child poverty Bill talked up again.

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I previously raised the issue of bills been taught out. It makes

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parliament look petty. How can we move forward? Another government

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response on the 16th of January says they don't accept this, but how can

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we move forward? There are many hard-working members who have worked

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hard on the bills and the woman to hard on the bills and the woman to

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come through. Could we have a debate on EDM 190, signed by 201 members,

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including from the front bench. When a person refers to a senator as

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poker hunters, when cries of lock her up I shouted out when no offence

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has been committed, when a person has consistently questioned the

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birthplace of a president, when a president talks about America first,

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but took his business anywhere but America, when a person forgets there

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were Native Americans before he arrived in the US, then I, born in

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Yemen of Indian heritage, who may or may not be directly affected by the

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travel ban, and others, welcomed the support for us and the reputation of

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Parliament. So could be leader of the house confirmed that the

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government will not support any attempt to act on the letter to the

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Prime Minister about comments made in a point of order in this Chamber?

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And also confirmed that the House of Lords will not be threatened with

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abolition when dealing with Article 50 legislation. It was on Monday Her

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Majesty ascended to the throne 65 years ago and this house

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congratulates her on that Sapphire milestone. Could I asked the leader

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of the housework abrogation who issues an invitation for a state

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visit? The Prime Minister day without with anyone? -- leader of

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the house tell are two issues an invitation for a state visit? Can I

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associate myself wholeheartedly with the honourable Lady's words about

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Her Majesty's Sapphire Jubilee. That particular anniversary is a time for

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reflection as her accession was possible because of the death of a

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much loved father. Anyone in this house, no matter what views they

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have on our constitutional arrangements, or want to share in

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the tributes to Her Majesty's selfless service to the United

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Kingdom over all those years. The arrangements for state visits have

:09:52.:09:55.

not changed under this government, they are exactly the same now as

:09:56.:10:00.

they were on the Prime Minister 's Blair and Brown. On the subject of

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restoration and renewal, I'm not in the position to announce a specific

:10:06.:10:09.

date. I can say to the honourable lady that the government's intention

:10:10.:10:13.

will be that there should be a debate in government time before the

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Easter recess. On her question about the arrangements for business and in

:10:20.:10:26.

particular backbench business on Thursday 23rd, I am conscious that I

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owe something of an apology to the chairman of the committee. It is

:10:34.:10:37.

always difficult to accommodate the various pressures for time and date

:10:38.:10:44.

that had been planned for an opposition half day have been lost

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as a result of the Supreme Court judgment and the bill that we have

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been debating early this week. The government has therefore agreed that

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we will protect the time for the remaining backbench business

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committee on Thursday 23rd and I will use my best endeavours to make

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sure that we reinstate the time that we have lost four backbench business

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committees as soon as possible. Now, she asked me about trade deals and

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of course one of the things that has changed very markedly since those

:11:25.:11:31.

days to which she referred is that Parliament has enacted the bribery

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act and that has made a very profound difference the duties that

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are imposed upon the directors and managers of the United Kingdom

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companies when they do any sort of business overseas and in addition to

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that, the terms of the International development act mean that aid and

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help for the poorest in the world cannot be used to lubricate a trade

:11:55.:12:00.

deal in the way that once might have been the case. She asked about the

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White Paper on the great repeal bill. That is indeed a separate

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distinct White Paper. I can't give her an exact date, but I'm conscious

:12:10.:12:15.

that the Secretary of State will no there will be an appetite in the

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House for members to read and I this white paper before we get onto

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debates about that repeal Bill. -- read and digestive. -- digester. She

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asked about Surrey County Council and social care. Clearly she missed

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the public statements that were made by the Department of local

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communities and local government yesterday. There is no secret deal.

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Surrey County Council has asked if it can participate in one of the

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pilot projects for the proposed 100% return of business rates to local

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government responsibility. That is not possible in the 2017-18

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financial year, but they, as any other local council, including the

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honourable lady's, can apply to be considered in the 2018-19 financial

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year. There is no memorandum of understanding, there is no secret

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documents. Now she asked me about private members bills. I mean, the

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reality is that there is not and there never has been under any

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government some automatic right for legislation that is proposed to

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become law, and even with government bills, when a government enjoys a

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small majority, governments have to think carefully about what

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legislation they bring forward on how to make sure that they secure

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Parliamentary support. I take note of the strong feelings that have

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been expressed in the early day motion led by her honourable friend

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the member for Cardiff South. Members across the house are

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entitled to have strong opinions, not just of what happens in this

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country, but on what happens anywhere else in the world. So far

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as the government is concerned, like previous governments of different

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political parties, whatever view any of us as individuals might have on

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any particular leader of another country, the reality is that

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governments have two deal with other governments in the world as they

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exist, and particularly with elected governments who can claim a mandate

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from their own people. I would just say that the results of the election

:14:58.:15:03.

in the United States is a matter for the United States, but despite the

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bitterness and the hard-fought nature of the presidential election

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campaign that Presidents Carter and Clinton, as well as President George

:15:17.:15:24.

W Bush and Secretary hill to -- secretary Hillary Clinton or

:15:25.:15:28.

attended President Trump Ozma inauguration and there was no

:15:29.:15:33.

challenge to the legitimacy of the constitutional process involved in

:15:34.:15:37.

that election. On the question of the House of Lords, the House of

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Lords has a valid function under our constitutional arrangements in terms

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of scrutinising and reviewing legislation coming up from the House

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of Commons, as I'm sure they will do on the bill we have been debating

:15:51.:15:53.

and as they have done on every other bill. There will also bear in mind

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the reality of the referendum and the popular mandate that lies behind

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the Article 50 decision. Finally, she did asked me at some length

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about Europe. I simply had to say this to her.

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Her front bench supported the decision to have the referendum. Her

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front bench supported the notion that endorsed the Prime Minister's

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timetable for triggering Article 50 before the end of March this year.

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Her front bench last night supported the third reading of the unamended

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bill. And therefore, I have to say, it is a little bit rich then for the

:16:43.:16:53.

opposition front bench to be giving us lectures or posting tweets to say

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the real fight begins now when they have been endorsing true their --

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through their voices a and approach what the Government is taking. Could

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we have a debate on how local councils review school catchment

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areas? Is the leader of the House appear in my area the council are

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seeking to tear up the catchment areas, meaning parents who have

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invested in local housing in order to access the school will have to

:17:28.:17:33.

look elsewhere in the future and fundamentally change the way their

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children get to school? Can we have an urgent debate to make sure these

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children are not disenfranchised today or in the future? I think my

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honourable friend may wish to seek an adjournment debate through the

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usual procedures. This are always difficult decisions. I think many of

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us know that from time to time, because of changes in population, to

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take the most obvious example, local authorities do need to review

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catchment areas and those proposals are always subject to a period of

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public consultation. I am sure that my honourable friend, as always will

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be extremely forceful in representing the interests of his

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constituents. Can I thank the Leader of the House for announcing the next

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week. Can say say happy birthday to the member. He's the third shadow

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leader of the House. It has been a thoroughly miserable, frustrating,

:18:41.:18:45.

depressing couple of weeks. I think it showed this House at its absolute

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and outeder worse. The Article 50 bill, rammed through Parliament at

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break-neck speed. No amendments accepted. Very few amendments

:18:55.:18:59.

considered. No report stage programme. No third reading debate

:19:00.:19:06.

held. It was more like a medieval course than an advanced democracy.

:19:07.:19:12.

Why was this rushed through at such a speed when we could have taken

:19:13.:19:16.

time to consider the many amendments tabled? Massive disrespect not just

:19:17.:19:22.

to this House but the many constituents who paid close

:19:23.:19:25.

attention last week. The bill now goes on its way down to a friends

:19:26.:19:33.

down the corridor. Unelected friends have been threatened with abolition

:19:34.:19:36.

if they dare mess with this Government's bill. I am sure they

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are now quaking if they don't do their patriotic duty, as the

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Secretary of State said. I offer nothing other than encouragement to

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these fine tribunes who will pick up the case. For us, it is very much a

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win-win, whatever an outcome is here. Can I say to their Lordships,

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reach for these barricades and take on this Government. Mr Speaker, we

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need a debate about respect of devolved Parliaments in the nations

:20:06.:20:09.

of the UK. It was not just this House voting on Article 50 this

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week. The Scottish Parliament also voted. The overwhelming majority of

:20:13.:20:20.

members rejected it. Just as every single Scottish Member of

:20:21.:20:25.

Parliament, bar one. We have to be driven off this cliff edge with a

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hardest of hard Brexit even though Scotland wants nothing to do with

:20:31.:20:34.

this madness. Time is running out for Scotland's voice to be heard. I

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am sure the leader of the House saw the poll, it is gently placing here

:20:43.:20:47.

we have options to consider, if Scotland's voice is to continue to

:20:48.:20:48.

be ignored. The leader of the Mr Speaker, I mean I felt at times

:20:49.:20:57.

with the honourable gentleman's praise to the house that I could

:20:58.:21:03.

sort of visualise the core Ron nets that are descending on him there. I

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felt there was some hidden ambition that was finally shining through.

:21:10.:21:16.

Can I say to him two things in response: First of all, the

:21:17.:21:20.

allocation of five days for a debate on this two-clause bill, that did no

:21:21.:21:26.

more than authority the Prime Minister to trigger Article 50, was

:21:27.:21:32.

a, seems a perfectly reasonable allocation of time. It was an

:21:33.:21:37.

allocation of time that had certainly even this week has allowed

:21:38.:21:42.

something like half the members of the honourable gentleman's party to

:21:43.:21:46.

participate in proceedings, either through speeches or interventions.

:21:47.:21:51.

My impression, listening to some of the contributions from his benches

:21:52.:21:54.

was that the atmosphere was far from being all doom and glooj. The

:21:55.:21:59.

honourable je -- glam. The honourable gentleman entertained us

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for an hour earlier this week and seemed to be enjoying himself

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immensely at that time. The reality is though, as I said

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earlier, Mr Speaker, is that this bill has been brought forward, in

:22:14.:22:20.

response to a very clear referendum decision by the electorate of the

:22:21.:22:25.

United Kingdom. And I think that does mean that this

:22:26.:22:30.

is a very different type of bill from the bills that the House has

:22:31.:22:38.

debated previously, to ratify various EU amending treaties over

:22:39.:22:44.

the years. He asked, he complained about the alleged sort of lack of

:22:45.:22:49.

respect and attention being paid to Scotland. As the Prime Minister

:22:50.:22:55.

said, yet again, yesterday, the United Kingdom Government is

:22:56.:22:59.

determined to work with the Scottish Government as well as with the

:23:00.:23:06.

Government in Cardiff and in Belfast, to ensure that the

:23:07.:23:11.

interests of every part of the United Kingdom are represented in

:23:12.:23:15.

the negotiations on which we are about to embark. That commitment is

:23:16.:23:21.

sincere. It is very strongly felt by the Prime Minister herself and it is

:23:22.:23:24.

something that she's impressed on every member of the Cabinet. Local

:23:25.:23:33.

concerns have been raised in Cambridgeshire, not least as the

:23:34.:23:39.

excellent forensic work of my neighbour, into funding decisions

:23:40.:23:44.

taken by the greater Cambridgeshire Local Enterprise Partnership. May we

:23:45.:23:49.

have a debate in Government time to ensure there's proper transparency

:23:50.:23:54.

and aaccountability so decisions are fair, properly scrutinised and their

:23:55.:24:01.

et think Kaysy is properly tested? I think it is important that members

:24:02.:24:10.

who I think on the whole do a good job in providing a forum for

:24:11.:24:14.

bringing local business and local authorities together and for trying

:24:15.:24:20.

to leverage private sector investment to, along with public

:24:21.:24:24.

sector investment to support infrastructure projects. The members

:24:25.:24:30.

do also have regard to the fact they are the kos todayians of public

:24:31.:24:34.

money. They need to make sure they have proper rules on accountability

:24:35.:24:38.

and transparency that would be expected with anybody who is in

:24:39.:24:42.

receipt of taxpayers' money. My honourable friend may have the

:24:43.:24:45.

opportunity to raise these issues further at CLG questions on Monday

:24:46.:24:48.

27th of this month. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Will the

:24:49.:24:58.

leader of the House arrange for an urgent debate on social care

:24:59.:25:02.

funding? As part of that, will he ensure and speak to the DCLG and ask

:25:03.:25:08.

them to publish any contact there's been between Surrey and DCLG

:25:09.:25:13.

ministers or aides so that debate can be informed. My local

:25:14.:25:18.

Nottinghamshire authority is incan des send, as I am sure other

:25:19.:25:21.

authorities are about the way it appears that Surrey has been offered

:25:22.:25:25.

a sweet heart deal and they have been left to fend for themselves.

:25:26.:25:34.

There's no sweet heart deal and Nottinghamshire is welcome to apply,

:25:35.:25:41.

as Surrey wished to, to participate in the full return of business rate

:25:42.:25:47.

finance to local authorities in the 2018/19 financial year. The, I think

:25:48.:25:53.

the CLG statement yesterday ga if a full account of what has happened. I

:25:54.:25:58.

think that a, there's been a lot of fuss and complaint about this, when

:25:59.:26:03.

actually there's less of a story than the honourable gentleman

:26:04.:26:04.

believes. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can we have a

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debate on Armed Forces charities? I am very honoured to be the President

:26:14.:26:20.

of Huddersfield Royal Air Force's association. If parliamentary

:26:21.:26:25.

business had been different today I would have been at the crematorium

:26:26.:26:30.

this afternoon for the funeral of tref ver Burgin. OBE. He was a

:26:31.:26:36.

bomber pi lot in the Second World War and flew over Europe. He had a

:26:37.:26:39.

successful 40-year career as a teacher. Last year he celebrated his

:26:40.:26:46.

platinum wedding anniversary to Kathleen L the leader of the house

:26:47.:26:51.

please pass on the condolences of every member of this House. He was a

:26:52.:26:58.

very enthusiastic and popular member of the Royal Air Force Association

:26:59.:27:03.

in Huddersfield. I thank my friend for that question.

:27:04.:27:10.

I think that there is no-one in the future -- in the chamber who would

:27:11.:27:22.

dissent tribute to the Trevor Burgin. It was good my honourable

:27:23.:27:26.

friend was able to talk about his late constituent's career of service

:27:27.:27:31.

because that does remind us that behind the statistics and behind the

:27:32.:27:35.

generalities there are stories of true heroism and of a lifetime of

:27:36.:27:39.

public service and commitment. I think all of us in our

:27:40.:27:46.

constituencies are aware that Armed Forces charities do incredibly

:27:47.:27:51.

important good work. Often quietly and unsung, in reaching out to

:27:52.:27:58.

people who are still scarred by both the, by physical and mental

:27:59.:28:01.

consequences to their health of their time in service.

:28:02.:28:06.

Over 30 members are seeking to catch my eye now. May I just advise the

:28:07.:28:13.

House that 36 members wish to speak in the first of the two backbench

:28:14.:28:19.

business debates and 12 wish to contribute to the second. Therefore,

:28:20.:28:24.

if I am to have any chance of accommodating that later backbench

:28:25.:28:28.

interest, we need to be moving on close to 12. 30. Short questions and

:28:29.:28:31.

answers, please. . Thank you. Last week I visited an

:28:32.:28:38.

institute outside Cambridge where 1100 people are transforming our

:28:39.:28:42.

understanding of the human genome. Over 235% of them are none EU

:28:43.:28:48.

nationals. The senior managers impressed upon me the dwravety of

:28:49.:28:51.

that situation. Many of those -- gravity of the situation. Many of

:28:52.:28:55.

those are poorly played and would not work through the visa system.

:28:56.:29:03.

Can we please have a discussion on this?

:29:04.:29:06.

The honourable gentleman makes a point about his and other scientific

:29:07.:29:13.

institutions. As the Prime Minister said, the Government regards the

:29:14.:29:19.

securing of an early deal to secure the position, both of EU residents

:29:20.:29:24.

already here and British nationals in other European countries is a

:29:25.:29:28.

primary objective. We want that sorted as quickly as possible.

:29:29.:29:39.

. Thank you. Would he find time in Government time for a debate should

:29:40.:29:44.

the other place seek to delay beyond the end of March the passage of our

:29:45.:29:52.

accession to Article 50, for this House to discuss the possibility of

:29:53.:29:57.

either the abolition or full-scale reform of the other place?

:29:58.:30:00.

Well, I'm, I am more optimistic than my Right Honourable friend, because

:30:01.:30:10.

I think that there is an awareness in the House of Lords that as an

:30:11.:30:17.

unelected chamber that there are conventions that apply to how they

:30:18.:30:22.

scrutinise and deal with legislation and while I don't want to take

:30:23.:30:27.

anything away from their proper constitutional role, I think members

:30:28.:30:31.

of the House of Lords have been congis sent of the fact this is the

:30:32.:30:37.

elected House and we voted by a huge majority. And behind that vote lay

:30:38.:30:42.

the bigger vote of the people of the United Kingdom as a whole.

:30:43.:30:48.

Can we have a debate on the legal definition of the word normally,

:30:49.:30:55.

please? In the Scotland act 2016, clause two states it is recognised

:30:56.:30:59.

that the Parliament of the United kingdom will not normally legislate

:31:00.:31:04.

with regard to devolved matters without the consent of the Scottish

:31:05.:31:09.

Parliament. This government continues to ignore the wishes of

:31:10.:31:18.

the Scottish Parliament over things such as Article 50, can we find out

:31:19.:31:23.

what else the government intends to ride roughshod over in terms of the

:31:24.:31:34.

devolution agreement? The ears of every lawyer in the country will

:31:35.:31:41.

have pricked if we are to have a debate I would normally. I repeat,

:31:42.:31:46.

the government has been absolutely consistent in saying that the

:31:47.:31:50.

interests of the entire United Kingdom, from fair Isle to the

:31:51.:31:53.

series, will be fully represented in how we approach these negotiations.

:31:54.:32:02.

-- to be silly islands. Last month I hosted a reception by rural England

:32:03.:32:07.

which welcomed the report which was called the state of rural services

:32:08.:32:13.

2016. The report considers the impact of oral challenges. For

:32:14.:32:18.

instant, health, education, transport and broadband. Last week I

:32:19.:32:24.

chaired a meeting on the impact of losing our services. For all

:32:25.:32:33.

residents are becoming frustrated. -- rural. Would my honourable friend

:32:34.:32:41.

got a debate to consider funding to rural services? We have questions on

:32:42.:32:55.

the 27th of February and the first and 2nd of March. There will be a

:32:56.:33:05.

review of the fair funding formula to see whether authorities

:33:06.:33:07.

throughout the country are getting their fair share. Whilst the

:33:08.:33:14.

Department for Work and Pensions office in my constituency will not

:33:15.:33:18.

face immediate closure, the jobs there will be relocated to Cardiff

:33:19.:33:22.

in the next three years. Before that happens in those jobs are lost from

:33:23.:33:25.

my local community, can we have a debate as to whether the strategy --

:33:26.:33:36.

as to the strategy of the Department of Works and pensions relocating

:33:37.:33:39.

their offices. The principle behind the changes has to be the right one,

:33:40.:33:46.

that the department stops paying out unnecessarily rent on property that

:33:47.:33:51.

is partly empty, uses a smaller estates, particularly given the

:33:52.:33:55.

significant fall in unemployment, and uses paving is -- savings to

:33:56.:34:06.

help people who are finding difficulties getting back to work.

:34:07.:34:12.

This weekend the report of the defence subcommittee chaired by my

:34:13.:34:16.

honourable friend for Plymouth will be published. It is entitled, who

:34:17.:34:21.

guards the guardians and sets out in detail circumstances whereby a

:34:22.:34:34.

charlatan was able to abuse legal aid to hound British soldiers who

:34:35.:34:37.

served bravely in Iraq and did nothing wrong. Can we at the

:34:38.:34:43.

earliest opportunity have a statement as a result of

:34:44.:34:47.

consultations between the MoD, the Northern Ireland Office and the

:34:48.:34:49.

Department of Justice as to what will be done in terms of legislation

:34:50.:34:53.

to make sure nothing like this can happen again to form a service

:34:54.:34:58.

personnel who served in Northern Ireland. As the Prime Minister made

:34:59.:35:02.

clear yesterday this is an issue that we take very seriously and I

:35:03.:35:05.

can assure my right honourable friend that when the report is

:35:06.:35:11.

published that ministers from those departments that he has mentioned

:35:12.:35:16.

all want to study that closely and to consult with our honourable

:35:17.:35:22.

friend for Plymouth about the potential implications on policy.

:35:23.:35:26.

It's actually a month ago I asked about the new line on the HS2

:35:27.:35:32.

running through Derbyshire which means there will be two HS2 lines

:35:33.:35:38.

running through Derbyshire, a fast track and a slow track. It will

:35:39.:35:48.

bring disruption on the village of Newton, which will result in them

:35:49.:35:55.

losing their homes. I called upon the Secretary of State for Transport

:35:56.:35:58.

to intervene and had no reply. Can we have a statement about this? How

:35:59.:36:09.

far will be government take it without consulting the people of

:36:10.:36:18.

Newton? Sort it out! Mr Speaker, I know only well the impact that the

:36:19.:36:23.

HS2 proposals have upon those communities who live close to the

:36:24.:36:27.

designated route. I will undertake to the honourable gentleman to

:36:28.:36:31.

ensure that the Secretary of State for Transport is reminded about his

:36:32.:36:37.

enquiring, about this matter. It is right that the people he represents

:36:38.:36:41.

should get a proper response from HS2 Limited and I want to make

:36:42.:36:49.

certain that that happens. The Leader of the House will recall last

:36:50.:36:53.

week I spoke about the mounting excitement in Cleethorpes in

:36:54.:36:56.

anticipation of the visit from the Northern Powerhouse Minister. You'll

:36:57.:37:02.

appreciate that it's now at fever pitch with the visit, only 24 hours

:37:03.:37:07.

awake, and people are talking about a parallel career path with the last

:37:08.:37:11.

frontbencher to visit Seaview Street which was my honourable friend the

:37:12.:37:18.

member for Maidenhead. More seriously, Mr Speaker, be Seaview

:37:19.:37:22.

Street traders won an award in the British high street awards. Up and

:37:23.:37:28.

down the country traders are facing difficulties. Could we have a debate

:37:29.:37:35.

to discuss the future of our high streets? I can't offer the debate in

:37:36.:37:39.

government time. I think this is an important issue, it affects many

:37:40.:37:46.

communities. The growth of online sales means there are challenges

:37:47.:37:51.

faced by small retailers and it is important that retailers are able to

:37:52.:37:54.

learn from those high streets that are successful and innovative in

:37:55.:37:59.

managing to keep their customers. I think that the will now be a whole

:38:00.:38:07.

swathe of my ambitious and trusting ministerial colleagues who will be

:38:08.:38:10.

making a beeline for Cleethorpes at the earliest opportunity. Can we

:38:11.:38:17.

have a statement on the shock and disappointment being felt across

:38:18.:38:22.

Scotland at the failure of former England captain David Beckham to

:38:23.:38:26.

gain a knighthood? This is particularly the case since he had

:38:27.:38:30.

been advised that his support for the better together campaign in 2014

:38:31.:38:34.

would play well with the establishment and in turn-up is

:38:35.:38:47.

nightfall. -- in turn, help his knighthood. Surely the Leader of the

:38:48.:39:00.

House can bend one for Beckham? I wasn't quite sure whether the right

:39:01.:39:04.

honourable gentleman was speaking on behalf of Mr Beckham, or perhaps

:39:05.:39:09.

there was another motive there. Atherton yearning for the knighthood

:39:10.:39:19.

himself, but I can honestly say to him that this is not a matter for

:39:20.:39:26.

me. The Leader of the House will know I am keen to have another

:39:27.:39:31.

debate on International women's a which is forthcoming in March, but

:39:32.:39:38.

meanwhile it is lesbian and gay and transgender month. Can we have a

:39:39.:39:52.

debate around Brexit as Hampshire County Council starts to slide the

:39:53.:40:03.

rainbow flag? The United Kingdom had a very strong and proud tradition of

:40:04.:40:10.

human rights and liberal values before we entered the European Union

:40:11.:40:15.

and that will continue after we have left the European Union and I think

:40:16.:40:18.

that my honourable friend only has to look at another non-EU country in

:40:19.:40:25.

Europe, like Norway, to see that there is no bar to a liberal

:40:26.:40:35.

approach to individual rights as a result of being apart from the

:40:36.:40:39.

European Union. Currently it is possible for the widowed parent of a

:40:40.:40:45.

newborn baby to receive up to ?119,000 over 20 years, but if a

:40:46.:40:50.

partner dies after the 6th of April 2017, bereavement payments will be

:40:51.:40:55.

limited to ?9,800 over 18 months. Can we please have a debate in

:40:56.:41:00.

government time to discuss these reforms which will cause severe

:41:01.:41:06.

hardship to grieving families. There will be questions to the Secretary

:41:07.:41:13.

of State for Work and Pensions on our first day back, so I think the

:41:14.:41:16.

honourable lady will have an opportunity then. Mr Speaker, I

:41:17.:41:21.

don't know whether you have attended a speedway meeting, but it has

:41:22.:41:31.

always attracted a family audience. Racing has taken place in my

:41:32.:41:41.

constituency, but as a consequence of a disagreement, one of the local

:41:42.:41:50.

teams will start the season 25 miles away. Can we have a debate on this?

:41:51.:41:58.

If my honourable friend wants to draw the attention of the Minister

:41:59.:42:03.

of sport, I'm sure she will want to know what is happening in the

:42:04.:42:07.

Speedway world in the Midlands. This is a matter for the government is an

:42:08.:42:13.

independent governing bodies of the sport rather than something where

:42:14.:42:21.

Minister should be intervening. I should say to be honourable member

:42:22.:42:26.

for Bolsover but before I came into the Chamber this morning, I did

:42:27.:42:30.

select for the first Thursday when we return from the half term recess

:42:31.:42:38.

his proposed subject matter for the end of Day adjournment debate.

:42:39.:42:44.

Thursday the 23rd of February. Mr Ian Murray. I wonder if we could

:42:45.:42:48.

have a statement from the Leader of the House himself, in fact he could

:42:49.:42:52.

do it now, on how the government brings bills forward to this house?

:42:53.:42:56.

It's quite clear because the government did not programme in

:42:57.:43:03.

certain stages to the EU withdrawal bill and obviously they did not

:43:04.:43:10.

intend to accept enquiries from members. The Ulissi intended to ride

:43:11.:43:19.

roughshod over the process and it makes the last three days a sham.

:43:20.:43:24.

There was provision for a report stage. Whether there would be

:43:25.:43:29.

debating time will depend as always on whether amendments were carried

:43:30.:43:36.

on maps -- or not come and also how long the house would debate the

:43:37.:43:47.

report. The member for Newport West has been an outstanding

:43:48.:43:51.

parliamentarian and I want to wish birthday. I was once his

:43:52.:43:57.

constituents and his antics drove me to run for parliament, so I must

:43:58.:44:07.

thank him. This parliament works because we have two houses and

:44:08.:44:11.

sometimes the other place as agreed with this house and annoys the

:44:12.:44:16.

government. That is no reason to threaten it with abolition. Can we

:44:17.:44:20.

have a statement from the Leader of the House confirming that? That

:44:21.:44:26.

government's position is we respect the constitutional role of the House

:44:27.:44:29.

of Lords and as I said earlier the House of Lords itself accepts that

:44:30.:44:36.

as an unelected house it needs to abide by certain conventions. Thank

:44:37.:44:47.

you to you and other members for the kind comments. I'm less happy that I

:44:48.:44:55.

will carry the burden of a life that are responsible for the honourable

:44:56.:45:03.

member's political career. We should have a debate in this house on

:45:04.:45:09.

procedure during division so we can enjoy the singing of the Scottish

:45:10.:45:13.

National party choir. The only bright spot in yesterday's evening's

:45:14.:45:20.

bleak mean-spirited chauvinism was hearing those glorious words of the

:45:21.:45:24.

European anthem. Looking forward to the great

:45:25.:45:47.

European ideal on which this government is trampling now, the

:45:48.:45:51.

idea that day will come when all humanity will be one family. Hear,

:45:52.:46:05.

hear! It rightly is awash man who highlights the importance of singing

:46:06.:46:11.

and I think my advice to honourable ladies and gentlemen on the Scottish

:46:12.:46:15.

National Party bench would be that we have an all-party, and staff as

:46:16.:46:21.

well as members Parliamentary choir that the crypt every Monday evening,

:46:22.:46:26.

and I know many SNP members will be welcome to join those who already

:46:27.:46:28.

participate. I am not shoo how to follow that. We

:46:29.:46:45.

have heard of the ?30 million investment, all of which is good for

:46:46.:46:51.

jobs in Corby. We must never be complacent. Can we have a statement

:46:52.:46:55.

from ministers on real news rather than fake news on the number of jobs

:46:56.:47:00.

created and investment into the UK industry since 23rd June? My

:47:01.:47:04.

honourable friend makes a very good point. I think that the additional

:47:05.:47:11.

investment projects that have been announced in the United Kingdom

:47:12.:47:16.

since the referendum are a tribute to the underlying strengths of the

:47:17.:47:21.

economy of this country and that is a strength which this Government is

:47:22.:47:27.

determined to build further. On behalf of The Right Honourable

:47:28.:47:32.

member for Gateshead who is indisposed with a prolapsed disk, I

:47:33.:47:36.

am sure that the whole House will wish him a speedy delivery, but on

:47:37.:47:41.

behalf of the Backbench Business Committee we were placed in a

:47:42.:47:44.

position on our meeting on Tuesday, I know that the chairman has writ on

:47:45.:47:48.

the the leader about this particular issue. We believed that we had the

:47:49.:47:54.

full day on 23rd. We allocated two debates for the 23rd. And that has

:47:55.:47:58.

left us in a very difficult position. Can I say that the budget,

:47:59.:48:03.

I understand, will be on 8th March and then there'll be a succession of

:48:04.:48:10.

day's debate on that. Even if we fill every Thursday between now and

:48:11.:48:17.

then, we will not get all of our allotted days on the business

:48:18.:48:24.

committee. We have on 2nd March, we have prual le kated Welsh affairs

:48:25.:48:32.

and a debate on International Women's Day which falls on the day

:48:33.:48:36.

of the Budget. Can I ask my Right Honourable friend to ensure that we

:48:37.:48:40.

get the second of March as a backbench business day and that on

:48:41.:48:45.

23rd February, the protected time is sufficient for a proper debate on

:48:46.:48:50.

theish shoo u we chosen for debate which is -- the issue we have chosen

:48:51.:48:55.

for debate, child referees in Greece and Italy. If I may, because there

:48:56.:48:59.

was a terrible incident in my constituency yesterday where a young

:49:00.:49:03.

man was stabbed at Queensberry station. That meant the whole

:49:04.:49:09.

station was closed, not only with passengers inconvenienced but this

:49:10.:49:12.

was a gang fight. Can we therefore have a statement at some stage of

:49:13.:49:16.

what action the Government is going to take to combat knife crime so

:49:17.:49:20.

that no other individuals suffer this terrible fate? On the points

:49:21.:49:27.

about the Backbench Business Committee, as I said earlier, what

:49:28.:49:34.

has happened as regards is terrible. I am sorry that of that decision. I

:49:35.:49:39.

can give assurance that the protected time will be allowed for a

:49:40.:49:44.

full debate on the subject the committee continues to recommend. I

:49:45.:49:47.

will do my best to try and ensure that the time that was lost to refer

:49:48.:49:54.

the debate is made up as rapidly as possible. I will take into account

:49:55.:50:01.

the remarks about March 2nd. I know how important the annual St David's

:50:02.:50:06.

Day debate is for all members. On his point about the constituency

:50:07.:50:12.

case, I think that the sense of shock which came through in my

:50:13.:50:17.

honourable friend's question will have been shared right across the

:50:18.:50:21.

House. I will make sure that the Home Secretary is alerted to this

:50:22.:50:26.

particular case, but he will know that the pen atties for knife --

:50:27.:50:31.

penalties for knife crime have been increased and the police are doing

:50:32.:50:37.

their utmost to combat that kind of crime he described.

:50:38.:50:40.

THE SPEAKER: We need one-answer questions from now on. 41 years ago

:50:41.:50:47.

ten Protestants were murdered by the provisional IRA at king's mill. A

:50:48.:50:53.

man was charged because his hand print was found on a vehicle

:50:54.:50:57.

involved in that atrocity. This morning, the public prosecutor has

:50:58.:51:01.

said to the families that is not sufficient evidence to prosecute the

:51:02.:51:07.

alleged IRA man. At the same time of soldiers being dragged through the

:51:08.:51:10.

courts in Northern Ireland. When we will get equity in prosecutions in

:51:11.:51:14.

Northern Ireland? As the Secretary of State has made clear that he's

:51:15.:51:18.

working to try and address the issue of the way in which souleder --

:51:19.:51:23.

soldiers have been unfairly singled out. The service is independent of

:51:24.:51:29.

directions, I cannot comment on this particular case. Anybody who knows

:51:30.:51:33.

about Northern Ireland will know the scars of the king's mill massacre

:51:34.:51:39.

still remain to this day. Residents in my constituency have been let

:51:40.:51:44.

down by a house builder not completing their houses to the

:51:45.:51:47.

standard. This week they have been let down because there was no

:51:48.:51:51.

provision for a new houses ombudsman. Can this will raised with

:51:52.:51:56.

the relevant Housing Minister? I will make sure the minister is

:51:57.:52:01.

alerted. I would say on Monday 27th February there'll be questions to

:52:02.:52:04.

local Government community ministers where she may raise this point

:52:05.:52:10.

again. My constituent, Mr Christopher

:52:11.:52:16.

Bronsdon is an anomaly in the civil service pensions arrangement by

:52:17.:52:21.

which short-service employees leafing service lose their

:52:22.:52:24.

contribution to the pension pot. People like him have lost ?100

:52:25.:52:29.

million in recent years as a result. Can we have a debate on this issue.

:52:30.:52:34.

The best advice is to apply for an adjournment debate. If he wants to

:52:35.:52:39.

write to me with details I will pass it on to ministers. I was pleased

:52:40.:52:44.

that Surrey County Council spoke out about the scandal in social care

:52:45.:52:47.

funding. If it is bad there, think how much worse it is in Hull. The

:52:48.:52:51.

third most deprived area in the country. Forecasting a ?45 million

:52:52.:52:57.

shortfall in social care funding by 2020. After the revelations of

:52:58.:53:03.

yesterday, can all the Members of Parliament outside the stock broker

:53:04.:53:07.

belt be given the telephone phone number of Nick, so we can all text

:53:08.:53:12.

him to get the best deal we need for our areas. Better get through to the

:53:13.:53:18.

right Nick! That sometimes proves quite tricky! Nobody pretends there

:53:19.:53:26.

is not a serious challenge for our country in terms of social care. It

:53:27.:53:30.

is a serious challenge. That's why the Government has increased funding

:53:31.:53:34.

through the better care fund and social care present. In the mead

:53:35.:53:40.

unanimous term we need to make sure the most successful local

:53:41.:53:46.

authorities are able to de deacceptate their through those who

:53:47.:53:50.

are not doing so well and that health and social care work more

:53:51.:53:53.

closely together. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The

:53:54.:53:57.

international trade secretary told me earlier, that investors in the US

:53:58.:54:04.

are reluctant to invest in Scotland because they fear Scottish

:54:05.:54:07.

independence. How much money are we talking about? What projects? What

:54:08.:54:12.

is the UK Government doing to ensure Scotland is open for business? I

:54:13.:54:16.

think, as I said earlier to my honourable friend, the member for

:54:17.:54:20.

Corby t track record of the United Kingdom since the referendum, has

:54:21.:54:25.

been that we continue to attract investment here from all around the

:54:26.:54:30.

world. If there are particular difficulties in attracting

:54:31.:54:33.

investment to Scotland, then the honourable gentleman might look, for

:54:34.:54:38.

example, at the recently approved budget by the Scottish Government

:54:39.:54:42.

which has made Scots the highest taxed people anywhere in the United

:54:43.:54:51.

Kingdom. A prison was taken to an unknown

:54:52.:54:57.

location by agents from Iran's intelligence agency on January 4th

:54:58.:55:02.

during a family visit in the prison. In a statement a British

:55:03.:55:05.

parliamentary commission warned about the threat to his life and

:55:06.:55:09.

called for international action for his release. Will the leader of the

:55:10.:55:14.

House agree to an urgent statement in this matter because time is of

:55:15.:55:20.

the essence? To the good fortune of the honourable gentleman, the man

:55:21.:55:24.

with the responsibility to the Middle East, he is on the front

:55:25.:55:29.

bench. He would have heard the remarks and will want to respond to

:55:30.:55:34.

him. With industrial action today the

:55:35.:55:36.

human rights commission and the chair of the economics advising the

:55:37.:55:40.

Joint Committee on Human Rights they are at their limits of what they can

:55:41.:55:47.

do can we have a debate about the funding of the human rights

:55:48.:55:51.

commission, so that victims of hate crime are protected? I mean, the

:55:52.:55:56.

honourable gentleman may wish to seek an adjournment debate. The

:55:57.:56:01.

qualities commission is, operates at arm's length from ministers. They

:56:02.:56:04.

have to take their own decisions about how they live within their

:56:05.:56:09.

means in the way every public authority has to live within its

:56:10.:56:12.

means. Can we have a debate in Government

:56:13.:56:19.

time to allow the House to reflect on the full input of what the

:56:20.:56:24.

supreme has said in respect of the convention so the important

:56:25.:56:28.

questions about the future are not left to contend along with other

:56:29.:56:34.

frictions and fictions of the great repeal bill? There'll be questions

:56:35.:56:38.

to the Secretary of State for Scotland on Wednesday 1st March,

:56:39.:56:41.

when there'll be opportunities for this matter to be raised. And I am

:56:42.:56:46.

absolutely certain that when we get, after the Queen's Speech, to the EU

:56:47.:56:51.

repeal bill, that there'll be ample opportunity then for all these

:56:52.:56:53.

questions to be debated. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can we have a

:56:54.:57:02.

Government statement on the intended timetable of the joint ministerial

:57:03.:57:07.

council for European negotiations given the Brexit committee were told

:57:08.:57:11.

recently as yesterday that committee has not begun to consider the

:57:12.:57:17.

article of 50, that some reports suggest might be submitted four

:57:18.:57:21.

weeks from today. While the joint ministerial committee meetings are

:57:22.:57:27.

important, the contacts between UK ministers and their counterparts in

:57:28.:57:31.

the three devolved administrations and between UK Government officials

:57:32.:57:36.

in all relevant departments and officials in the devolved

:57:37.:57:38.

administrations continue on a daily and weekly basis. So, that the

:57:39.:57:43.

consultation, the understanding of the particular priorities of the

:57:44.:57:47.

devolved administrations is part of the mainstream work of UK Government

:57:48.:57:49.

departments. Mr Speaker, yesterday at the

:57:50.:58:00.

Scottish Affairs Committee the Jobcentre closure plans were called

:58:01.:58:07.

illogical. An aquality assessment on greater detail. On the stake closure

:58:08.:58:12.

plans and the moratoriums and closures that members across this

:58:13.:58:17.

House and across these island have confidence in that this Government

:58:18.:58:20.

actually knows what it is doing? I suppose it is a forlorn hope that

:58:21.:58:27.

the honourable lady, members of her party might actually take some

:58:28.:58:30.

pleasure in the massive falls in unemployment and the growth of

:58:31.:58:33.

employment that we have seen in this country, inclieding in Scot wland

:58:34.:58:37.

and -- including in Scotland and Glasgow. It cannot be right for the

:58:38.:58:41.

Department for Work and Pensions to be spineding money unnecessarily on

:58:42.:58:45.

buildings that are -- on spending money unnecessarily on building that

:58:46.:58:50.

are not occupied to give additional advice and support to people,

:58:51.:58:54.

perhaps with disabilities or long-term unemployed, who want and

:58:55.:58:57.

need that additional support to get back into employment.

:58:58.:59:05.

Yesterday TSB bank announced the closure of a canvass branch line.

:59:06.:59:11.

All three branches would have vanished. Can we have a discussion

:59:12.:59:18.

about the Post Office to delive day-to-day banking facilities on the

:59:19.:59:29.

capability of an? That may be a good debate for a backbench debate or for

:59:30.:59:34.

an adjournment debate if the lady is fortunate enough in the ballot.

:59:35.:59:39.

Thank you. Not only did the Scottish Parliament vote against Article 50.

:59:40.:59:43.

It dealt with all votes and amendments less than five minutes.

:59:44.:59:47.

Does he agree if we had electronic voting in this House, it would not

:59:48.:59:52.

only would we have, not only would we have more time for debate, even

:59:53.:59:57.

if we had less time to sign the oh to joy? Call me old fashioned. I

:59:58.:00:04.

think it is quite a good idea that people should be present in

:00:05.:00:08.

Parliament in order to vote. When you move to electronic voting and

:00:09.:00:13.

you can vote remotely I think that disconnects the decisions about

:00:14.:00:18.

voting from the debate itself. Thank you, Mr Speaker. May we have

:00:19.:00:23.

an important debate on mobility payments to assist children who

:00:24.:00:28.

require palliative care? There is a cutoff that children must be aged

:00:29.:00:33.

three, that I am campaigning to change. The honourable lady makes an

:00:34.:00:43.

interesting point. I am not aware of the details of this particular

:00:44.:00:48.

issue. If she would like to give me some more detail I will take it up

:00:49.:00:51.

with the appropriate minister. She may wish to seek an adjournment

:00:52.:00:56.

debate from you, Mr Speaker. Can we have a statement on the Government

:00:57.:01:00.

definition of a marriage-like relationship? My constituent is

:01:01.:01:05.

under imminent threat of deportation because the Home Office do not

:01:06.:01:10.

recognise Robert's relationship with his fiancee, Chloe. As committed

:01:11.:01:15.

Christians that I have not cohabited before their marriage. Can this

:01:16.:01:20.

statement be considered urgently by the Government?

:01:21.:01:28.

Individual cases are of course subject to an independent system of

:01:29.:01:36.

appeals under our immigration and asylum rules. And ministers do not

:01:37.:01:44.

intervene in the way in individual cases. And those rules do provide

:01:45.:01:49.

for tests to try and distinguish between people who are living

:01:50.:01:54.

together as a matter of convenience, and sadly that does sometimes

:01:55.:01:59.

happen. And those where it is a genuine and committed relationship

:02:00.:02:03.

within marriage or without. I courage her to write to the

:02:04.:02:05.

Immigration Minister but that particular case. Thank you, fair

:02:06.:02:14.

trade fortnight is just around the corner, it could be marked with a

:02:15.:02:19.

debate on how fair trade policy affects the poorest people. I think

:02:20.:02:24.

UK support for free trade can be enormously beneficial to people

:02:25.:02:29.

living in poor countries. Because it means that they should be able to

:02:30.:02:34.

get ready access to customers, in our country, without tariffs will

:02:35.:02:39.

other regulations getting in the way. And trade, and enterprise, has

:02:40.:02:47.

shown its self again and again over the decades as the best long-term

:02:48.:02:51.

guarantee of economic growth and prosperity for people in poorer

:02:52.:02:55.

countries all around the world. Order. I will come to the points of

:02:56.:03:04.

order but forgive me if I say this first. I have received a report from

:03:05.:03:09.

the tellers in the no lobby yesterday for division number 157 on

:03:10.:03:16.

the EU notification of withdrawal bill, in respect of amendments

:03:17.:03:21.

number 86. They have informed me that the number of those voting no,

:03:22.:03:29.

was erroneously reported as 327, instead of 337. The ayes were 288

:03:30.:03:43.

and the noes were order. Point of order Louise Hage stock and I can't

:03:44.:03:46.

quite believe that I'm having to raise concentric scare in his house

:03:47.:03:51.

again. But after the scandal around it, HMRC revealed that they would

:03:52.:04:00.

never again use a private group to deal with tax credits. Today the

:04:01.:04:03.

government have written a ministerial statement to say that

:04:04.:04:08.

they are transferring tax error and fraud to the DWP and they will be

:04:09.:04:13.

seeking an outside provider. This is a disgrace will you turn on

:04:14.:04:17.

government policy, is there anything you can do to ensure that they

:04:18.:04:20.

minister comes to this hazard explains why this U-turn has

:04:21.:04:24.

happened and ensure that they are properly held to account. Ministers

:04:25.:04:31.

are responsible to their own statements and responsible for their

:04:32.:04:36.

subsequence adherents, I don't seek to adjudicate. The short answer is

:04:37.:04:39.

that it isn't for me to say that a minister must come here today, we

:04:40.:04:44.

have scheduled business that is very heavily subscribed. The honourable

:04:45.:04:50.

lady, with her usual persistence and indefatigability has put her concern

:04:51.:04:54.

on the record and it would have been heard on the Treasury bench. Knowing

:04:55.:04:57.

the honourable lady as I have come to do over the last 21 months, I

:04:58.:05:02.

rather doubt that she will let the matter rest. She may well think

:05:03.:05:06.

about it over a period of several days when we are in recess and if

:05:07.:05:10.

she is dissatisfied with what is said, or as the case may be not said

:05:11.:05:14.

by government, doubtless she will return to it when we return. Point

:05:15.:05:22.

of order Mr Peter Grant. Thank you Mr Speaker, yesterday, the Minister

:05:23.:05:30.

of repeatedly referred to yesterday and repeatedly said that it gave

:05:31.:05:34.

members the opportunity to vote for or against a trade deal. The wording

:05:35.:05:38.

of the motion on which the house divided makes no reference

:05:39.:05:42.

whatsoever to support or opposition to the trade deal. I accept that the

:05:43.:05:46.

Minister is acting in good faith. Can he advise me whether there are

:05:47.:05:55.

some people, so that the record of the proceedings correctly mark what

:05:56.:05:59.

was divided on yesterday. The honourable member has made his own

:06:00.:06:02.

point in his own way and it is on the record for all including his

:06:03.:06:06.

constituents to see. Moreover I understand that at the end of the

:06:07.:06:10.

European committee be, there was a vote on an amendment moved by the

:06:11.:06:12.

honourable member Full Squad is the West. -- for Swansea West. That vote

:06:13.:06:21.

was 7-5 against the amendment and indeed the record shows that the

:06:22.:06:25.

honourable member photo kill and South Persia was in demonology of

:06:26.:06:29.

five. Thereafter the motion was passed unopposed -- and the

:06:30.:06:36.

honourable member was in the minority of five. I'm not sure that

:06:37.:06:42.

there was anything else that I can add, I'm not seeking to be but use,

:06:43.:06:54.

but he can try again. Very well briefly. The motion that it was

:06:55.:07:00.

divided on was not the same motion that we divided on on Monday

:07:01.:07:05.

evening. The motion as described by the Minister were different to the

:07:06.:07:09.

terms of the motion which the house actually divided, the third division

:07:10.:07:15.

make no reference to support for or opposition to what was described by

:07:16.:07:18.

the Minister on a number of occasions. It is fair to say that

:07:19.:07:23.

this chair is not responsible for what I might say textual exegesis, I

:07:24.:07:28.

have not looked at the text of the amendment, and I haven't compared

:07:29.:07:31.

and contrast it that text with the words uttered from the Treasury

:07:32.:07:36.

bench by the Minister this morning. Clearly the honourable gentleman has

:07:37.:07:40.

made such a close study, and may well have profited by it. I did

:07:41.:07:44.

there is anything further I can do today, what I will say is that the

:07:45.:07:49.

honourable gentleman is in sense in gauging in a debating point, perhaps

:07:50.:07:52.

a legitimate one with the Minister, and at least today it seems that he

:07:53.:07:58.

would have had the last word. Hopefully says somebody from a

:07:59.:08:05.

sedentary position. Even that the record has just had to be corrected

:08:06.:08:09.

to reflect what is perhaps understandable human error in the

:08:10.:08:12.

division lobbies last night and given the intense number of votes

:08:13.:08:15.

that we can expect when the great repeal bill comes forward, does that

:08:16.:08:20.

not suggest that electronic voting might actually help avoid some of

:08:21.:08:24.

these human errors, and can you perhaps tell us Mr Speaker whose

:08:25.:08:29.

decision ultimately would it be, to introduce electronic voting in this

:08:30.:08:33.

house? The honourable gentleman never misses an opportunity, that

:08:34.:08:36.

would be the decision for the house. There does be absolutely care about

:08:37.:08:45.

that. A change could be agreed, only, by the house, and equally the

:08:46.:08:47.

house could agree not to do so. If there are no

:08:48.:08:55.

further points of order, and the appetite at least today has been

:08:56.:08:59.

satisfied, we come now to the backbench motion on Israeli

:09:00.:09:03.

settlements in the occupied Alice Tinney and territories. As things

:09:04.:09:09.

stand, I must warn colleagues, that it would seem almost inevitable,

:09:10.:09:12.

that there should be a five-minute limit on back bench speeches because

:09:13.:09:20.

approximately 35 or 36 colleagues wish to contribute. The motion in

:09:21.:09:24.

the first instance will be moved by Sir Desmond Swain. I beg to move the

:09:25.:09:28.

motion on the order paper in my name and in the name of other honourable

:09:29.:09:33.

members. Given the investment that we have made in a two state

:09:34.:09:39.

solution, my question to the Minister is, aside from standing on

:09:40.:09:45.

the touchline is, watching the players on the field and shouting

:09:46.:09:53.

advice, what more can we do, whilst our friend and ally, pursues a

:09:54.:10:01.

policy on settlements which is bound so proceeding, to deliver a

:10:02.:10:06.

situation where the two state solution becomes actually

:10:07.:10:10.

geographically and economic the unworkable. Now yesterday my right

:10:11.:10:17.

honourable friend the member for Congo are rightly challenged the

:10:18.:10:20.

Prime Minister on the need, for face to face negotiations. And he is also

:10:21.:10:33.

a champion, of the case for greater investment, in strategies and

:10:34.:10:37.

projects to bring about the integration of Palestinian and

:10:38.:10:40.

Israeli citizens. And he's right about that as well. If we take our

:10:41.:10:47.

diffident ploy using Jerusalem who travel in daily on a tortuous

:10:48.:10:52.

commute, from the areas around Bethlehem. These are young people in

:10:53.:10:59.

their mid-20s, to mid-30s. The only interaction that they ever have with

:11:00.:11:06.

an Israeli subject, is when during the journey, they are challenged, to

:11:07.:11:13.

show their papers under what I would call the operation of the pass laws,

:11:14.:11:20.

which exist to ensure that their ability to live, stay and work in

:11:21.:11:25.

their own city is restricted. Now I understand entirely, how we got to

:11:26.:11:29.

that dreadful situation. We got there because of the obscenity of

:11:30.:11:36.

suicide bombing. And no government, Israel could not possibly have

:11:37.:11:40.

tolerated the wholesale slaughter of its innocent citizens in that

:11:41.:11:46.

respect. The key question for us, having got to this dreadful

:11:47.:11:49.

situation, how do we get back from it? It is one thing to demand quite

:11:50.:11:56.

properly, face to face negotiations, but on the other hand, at the same

:11:57.:12:02.

time, to pursue a policy in respect of illegal settlements, which

:12:03.:12:08.

actually makes those negotiations so much more difficult, particularly

:12:09.:12:15.

so, when those, when that policy is driven by an increasingly strident

:12:16.:12:19.

ideology. I will give way when I had developed my argument. An

:12:20.:12:24.

increasingly strident ideology. On Monday night, when the bill was

:12:25.:12:30.

passed in the car Knesset, retrospectively, legalising 4000

:12:31.:12:39.

homes in illegal settlements, the Minister for culture welcomes that

:12:40.:12:43.

results saying" it was the first step towards full Israeli

:12:44.:12:50.

sovereignty over Jude dear and Samaria. " He chose his words

:12:51.:12:58.

carefully. And I might say Mr Deputy Speaker, when President Trump was

:12:59.:13:04.

elected, the interior Minister no less -- Judea and Samaria. The

:13:05.:13:08.

Interior Ministry welcomes that saying "We are witnessing the birth

:13:09.:13:13.

pangs of the Messiah, when everything has been flipped to the

:13:14.:13:19.

good of the Jewish people." Mr Speaker gave a rather different

:13:20.:13:24.

gloss on the election of Mr Trump on Monday, but nevertheless, it is

:13:25.:13:29.

clear, it is absolutely clear, that a significant proportion of the

:13:30.:13:32.

Israeli political establishment, are in thrall to an increasingly

:13:33.:13:40.

strident settler movement that regards Palestine as a biblical

:13:41.:13:50.

theme park. Judea and Samaria. Now the more strident, more aggressive,

:13:51.:13:55.

out riders of the settler movement, I'm not people that you would

:13:56.:13:57.

necessarily welcome as your neighbour. -- are not people.

:13:58.:14:03.

Particularly I refer to what is happening in Hebrew on. If we set

:14:04.:14:08.

aside some of the ruses that I used to acquire property, nevertheless

:14:09.:14:12.

when the settlers moving. It is actually the Palestinian neighbours,

:14:13.:14:17.

who have too wrecked grills and meshes and fences over their windows

:14:18.:14:24.

-- Haft to direct. To exclude the projectiles and the Rec use. And the

:14:25.:14:30.

reaction of the security forces, to protect their newly resident

:14:31.:14:36.

citizens, is to impose an exclusion zone, too cordoned off and sanitise,

:14:37.:14:41.

the access and the areas around those properties. And sober seeding,

:14:42.:14:47.

Palestinians find that they are excluded from the heart of their

:14:48.:14:52.

city and indeed from the area of their own homes. It has all of the

:14:53.:14:58.

appearance of what we used to describe has petty apartheid. Now

:14:59.:15:06.

when Senator Kerry explained at the turn of the year, why the United

:15:07.:15:14.

States would no longer pursue its policy of exercising the veto, in

:15:15.:15:20.

respect of UN resolution 2334, he said that if the two state solution

:15:21.:15:28.

was abandoned, Israel could no longer be both a democracy, and a

:15:29.:15:32.

Jewish state. It would have to accommodate

:15:33.:15:46.

Palestinian citizens and all the civil rights and political rights

:15:47.:15:49.

within the state of Israel. I carefully. Didn't John Kerry also

:15:50.:15:57.

say, and this is a direct quote, this is not to say that the

:15:58.:16:00.

settlements are the whole or even the primary cause of the conflict,

:16:01.:16:04.

of course they are not, nor can you say that if the settlements were

:16:05.:16:08.

suddenly removed you'd have priest without a broad agreement, you would

:16:09.:16:14.

not. That's what he said and the honourable gentleman could have

:16:15.:16:17.

submitted a more balanced motion that reflect the wide-ranging...

:16:18.:16:20.

He's sneering, but they more balanced notion to the two state

:16:21.:16:28.

solution that I want to see. I certainly wasn't sneering. I accept

:16:29.:16:31.

entirely that's what John Kerry said. The motion could not frankly

:16:32.:16:38.

be more anodyne. I see my honourable friend wishes to intervene. I'm very

:16:39.:16:43.

grateful. Is now not that I'm more than ever that the United Kingdom

:16:44.:16:46.

government has to be entirely consistent and remind the world

:16:47.:16:53.

without any qualification that settlements and occupied Palestinian

:16:54.:16:57.

territory are illegal without qualification? I absolutely agree.

:16:58.:17:02.

Does my right honourable friend still wish to intervene? In a

:17:03.:17:08.

moment? Very well. I returned to the point that I made with respect to

:17:09.:17:12.

John Kerry, the key question I return to is the one that I put to

:17:13.:17:16.

the minister at the start. What do we do? What can we do? Well, I was

:17:17.:17:23.

delighted by the activism of the United Kingdom government in respect

:17:24.:17:32.

of the security resolution... Not yet, to 334, as a consequence of

:17:33.:17:40.

that. I was of course this made by the subsequent inactivity of Her

:17:41.:17:44.

Majesty 's government in respect of the Paris conference. But it comes

:17:45.:17:48.

back to the question of what do we do every time there is some other

:17:49.:17:53.

outrages announcement in respect of settlements? What we do, and I'd

:17:54.:17:59.

heard the minister... I will not give way. I've heard the Minister

:18:00.:18:06.

Sayed from the dispatch box, we make representations at the highest

:18:07.:18:10.

level. And I've said it myself at that dispatch box. And of course we

:18:11.:18:14.

do make those representations and I'm certain that the Prime Minister

:18:15.:18:18.

will have made those representations on Monday to the Prime Minister. I

:18:19.:18:22.

last made those representations to Israeli politicians in a meeting in

:18:23.:18:30.

the Canas it with the chief negotiator with the Palestinians and

:18:31.:18:33.

Deputy Prime Minister, and halfway through the meeting, he stormed out,

:18:34.:18:37.

announcing that I had launched a brutal assault. Well, as you know Mr

:18:38.:18:48.

Deputy Speaker, I am a pussy by comparison to my honourable friend

:18:49.:18:53.

on the front bench, the member for East Bournemouth, who is a terrier.

:18:54.:18:58.

And I am absolutely convinced that his representations will be much

:18:59.:19:02.

more robust than mine. But so long as they remain representations,

:19:03.:19:10.

exactly that, the government of Israel will continue to act with

:19:11.:19:16.

absolute impunity. So the question to the Minister is, what do we do

:19:17.:19:23.

beyond representations? What else exists in his armoury to escalate

:19:24.:19:32.

the situation? And that, of course I accept, is an extraordinarily

:19:33.:19:37.

difficult question because Israel is our friend, our ally, a democracy, a

:19:38.:19:41.

nation where we have huge commercial interests is, and with which we

:19:42.:19:52.

share vital intelligence agendas. I'm afraid he missed his

:19:53.:19:59.

opportunity. Can I make one suggestion? One gentle suggestion as

:20:00.:20:08.

I conclude to my honourable friend? He might consider giving effect to

:20:09.:20:14.

this house's instruction that we should recognise the Palestinian

:20:15.:20:21.

state. Now, I've heard, I have heard my honourable friend say that we can

:20:22.:20:25.

only do this once, and therefore we need to choose the moment where that

:20:26.:20:31.

will make the maximum impact, and I agree with him. But he needs to

:20:32.:20:36.

consider this. It would be truly absurd if we were to delay that

:20:37.:20:41.

recognition until after the point at which the reality of any such

:20:42.:20:50.

Palestinian state could actually be delivered. The question is as on the

:20:51.:20:55.

order paper and what I would suggest to members is, we will have to start

:20:56.:20:59.

with a five-minute limit and if we can be tight we will get everybody

:21:00.:21:04.

in on the same amount of time. Richard Burton. Thank you for

:21:05.:21:08.

scheduling this debate and I congratulate the honourable

:21:09.:21:11.

gentleman for the way he introduced it. Look, these debates always bring

:21:12.:21:16.

out sharply differing opinions on both sides, that's inevitable. But

:21:17.:21:21.

there is one thing on which there has always been, in my experience,

:21:22.:21:28.

consensus in this house, across the Chambers, and that is that the best

:21:29.:21:31.

way to peace between Israel and Palestine is a two state solution

:21:32.:21:36.

where both peoples have equal rights to sovereignty in viable and

:21:37.:21:44.

contiguous states. Now of course fall, lasting peace involves more of

:21:45.:21:48.

dealing with settlements, of course it does. But the reason settlements

:21:49.:21:54.

are the focus of today's debate, and rightly so, is because the continued

:21:55.:21:59.

expansion of settlements, the infrastructure around, the

:22:00.:22:01.

accompanying demolitions that precede them is creating, as the

:22:02.:22:05.

honourable gentleman said, a new physical reality in the West Bank

:22:06.:22:10.

that is destroying the possibility of a viable Palestinian state ever

:22:11.:22:13.

being established. It's making physical changes to the map of the

:22:14.:22:18.

West Bank, carving it up into different segments, separate from

:22:19.:22:22.

each other, and in the end it resembles a Swiss cheese. It does

:22:23.:22:26.

not resemble anything that at the end of the day could be a reliable,

:22:27.:22:32.

contiguous state. I give way. I am grateful to my honourable friend for

:22:33.:22:37.

giving way. Does he agree that this policy of ongoing settlement

:22:38.:22:40.

expansion is not only an intolerable infringement on the right of the

:22:41.:22:45.

Palestinians, it is also a long-term threat to the stability and security

:22:46.:22:48.

of Israel postmark and people who care about the security of Israel in

:22:49.:22:53.

the longer term and its future as a democratic and a Jewish state ought

:22:54.:22:56.

to be opposing these policies and supporting the progressive voices in

:22:57.:23:02.

Israel? My honourable friend is absolutely right and I am

:23:03.:23:06.

particularly pleased that he also mentioned progressive voices that

:23:07.:23:10.

exist in Israel, could they do exist. One of the most insidious

:23:11.:23:14.

things happening at the moment our actions being taken by some of the

:23:15.:23:19.

Israeli right, sadly supported by the Israeli government, to silence

:23:20.:23:24.

those voices. Some organisations are breaking the silence, they have the

:23:25.:23:27.

guts and integrity to stand up and say this is wrong. Now, we know that

:23:28.:23:33.

the footprint of settlements, 6000 new unit announced in the last few

:23:34.:23:36.

weeks, the footprint of settlements now makes up over 42% of the

:23:37.:23:41.

landmass of the West Bank. And we know that whatever the numbers, and

:23:42.:23:45.

the honourable gentleman made this point, whatever the numbers, the

:23:46.:23:48.

reality is that every single settlement built on occupied land is

:23:49.:23:56.

an awful under the Geneva Convention. This echoes the point by

:23:57.:24:00.

the honourable gentleman, if settlement building does not stop,

:24:01.:24:04.

the two state solution that will inevitably follow means that the de

:24:05.:24:10.

facto annexation of the West Bank by Israel, we saw another move towards

:24:11.:24:17.

that in the last week with the regularisation law retrospectively

:24:18.:24:23.

declaring illegal Israeli settlements on expropriated private

:24:24.:24:29.

Palestinian land. I commend the Attorney General of Israel for

:24:30.:24:34.

declaring that unconstitutional. But the direction of travel is clear.

:24:35.:24:38.

With this law and the massive expansion of settlements that is

:24:39.:24:42.

taking place mean that whatever Israel calls it in theory,

:24:43.:24:51.

annexation is happening in practice. Are we in his view now beyond the

:24:52.:24:57.

point where a viable Palestinian state could be set up were there to

:24:58.:25:01.

be agreement to do that? Or does he think there are still perhaps

:25:02.:25:06.

grounds for some optimism? I still think that the long-standing policy

:25:07.:25:10.

of this house to support the two state solution is right. But the

:25:11.:25:15.

chances of it are disappearing, let's make no mistake about that.

:25:16.:25:21.

And I'm afraid I can't give way any more as there isn't time. I'm sure

:25:22.:25:24.

the honourable lady will have her chance a little bit later. But this

:25:25.:25:28.

is what John Kerry was getting at, if you end up with de facto

:25:29.:25:33.

annexation of the West Bank, that gives Israel a choice. Either it can

:25:34.:25:37.

say that everybody living there should have a vote and equal rights

:25:38.:25:41.

equal to its own citizens or it says that they do not. If it says they do

:25:42.:25:45.

have those rights then the future of Israel with a Jewish majority is at

:25:46.:25:50.

an end. If it means that they do not have those rights then Israel can no

:25:51.:25:56.

longer claim to be a democracy. Not only that, but if you have to factor

:25:57.:26:02.

annexation while maintaining systems of laws and controls that

:26:03.:26:05.

discriminate against the majority of people that live there and denied

:26:06.:26:09.

basic democratic rights, what term can you use describe what you are

:26:10.:26:14.

left with but a form of apartheid? And if you go there today and look

:26:15.:26:18.

at the reality of life for Palestinians on the West Bank, it is

:26:19.:26:21.

difficult to come away with the impression that what is happening

:26:22.:26:25.

there already is a creeping culture of apartheid. Is it any wonder,

:26:26.:26:31.

therefore, that if you talk to Palestinians today, particularly

:26:32.:26:33.

young Palestinians who have never experienced anything but the

:26:34.:26:37.

grinding weight of occupation, they increasingly tell you that what they

:26:38.:26:44.

regard as the international community constantly going on about

:26:45.:26:48.

the two state solution is a cruel deception on them and their lives

:26:49.:26:51.

and they say actually we are getting to the stage, we don't care how many

:26:52.:26:55.

states they are, we just want to be ensured that we have equal rights

:26:56.:27:00.

with everybody else. So we are left with choices, I think, about what we

:27:01.:27:04.

do about this. The honourable gentleman is quite right to put this

:27:05.:27:07.

to the Minister. We can either continue with the mantra that we

:27:08.:27:10.

support a two state solution in theory all we can do something. So I

:27:11.:27:18.

have two questions for the Minister. Firstly, what actions, not just

:27:19.:27:22.

words, is the UK Government prepared to take to differentiate Israeli

:27:23.:27:26.

settlements in the occupied West Bank from Israel itself? And as

:27:27.:27:32.

settlements are illegal should there not be a clear message from the

:27:33.:27:37.

government that any trade preferences either before Brexit or

:27:38.:27:42.

after Brexit do not apply to settlements, and that that will be

:27:43.:27:47.

enforced, that UK businesses should not collude with illegality through

:27:48.:27:51.

any financial dealings with settlements or through the import of

:27:52.:27:58.

settlement goods to the UK? And I conclude on this, and it echoes the

:27:59.:28:03.

point made by the honourable gentleman, five years ago the then

:28:04.:28:06.

Foreign Secretary William Hague said, we reserve the right to

:28:07.:28:10.

recognise a Palestinian state bilaterally at the moment of our

:28:11.:28:14.

choosing when it can best help bring about peace. In October 2014 this

:28:15.:28:21.

house asked the government to act on that. So will the Minister agree

:28:22.:28:25.

with me that when the two state solution that we all support is now

:28:26.:28:30.

under threat like never before that now is the time to act on that

:28:31.:28:37.

bilateral recognition? We have to ask ourselves if not now then when?

:28:38.:28:44.

And if not now, aren't those Palestinians who believe that we

:28:45.:28:47.

talk a good story but we do nothing to end their misery actually right?

:28:48.:28:55.

Thank you, and I congratulate the two honourable gentleman who have

:28:56.:28:59.

introduced this debate. Secretary Ceri's speech after resolution 2334

:29:00.:29:06.

was outstanding in its depth and balance. And friends of both Israel

:29:07.:29:13.

and Palestine must address the central charge of Kerry that the

:29:14.:29:17.

status quo is unsustainable and is both a threat to a democratic Israel

:29:18.:29:24.

and a viable Palestinian state. The argument that resolution 2334, John

:29:25.:29:29.

Kerry's speech, the Paris conference and even this motion are hollow

:29:30.:29:36.

words and simply serve to harden enchanters are self-serving

:29:37.:29:41.

nonsense. Reiterating basic tenets of international law and ceaselessly

:29:42.:29:44.

searching for peace cannot be dismissed in this way. I shared

:29:45.:29:49.

Kerry's analysis that settlements are not the whole or even the

:29:50.:29:54.

primary cause of the conflict. I welcome his work on securing

:29:55.:29:59.

Palestinian acknowledgement that the reference in the Arab peace

:30:00.:30:03.

initiative included the concept of land swaps, and he is right that

:30:04.:30:08.

even if the settlements were removed you would not have peace without a

:30:09.:30:13.

border agreement. Since Oslo, Palestinians have been betrayed by

:30:14.:30:16.

two decades of factional eyes leadership, by the international

:30:17.:30:22.

community and disastrous consequences of the implementation

:30:23.:30:26.

of the Oslo process, historically by their Arab neighbours, in a

:30:27.:30:29.

catastrophic way that they first advance their own interests ahead of

:30:30.:30:32.

Palestinian cause and also historically by Britain. In our

:30:33.:30:39.

failure to deliver the second half of the Balfour declaration. It is

:30:40.:30:43.

also true that over 100 years of Palestinian leaderships they have

:30:44.:30:47.

never missed an opportunity for missing an opportunity. Today those

:30:48.:30:51.

encouraging violence are again betraying the opportunity to present

:30:52.:30:56.

the Palestinian cause with legal and moral authority.

:30:57.:31:02.

But while admitting the enormity of these issues, one shouldn't belittle

:31:03.:31:07.

the Cirrus Miss of the settlement issue. Settlements are in legal

:31:08.:31:12.

under international law for a reason. I'm very grateful to the

:31:13.:31:18.

distinguished chair of the foreign affairs select committee to allow me

:31:19.:31:21.

to intervene but I wonder if he would just comment on what message

:31:22.:31:26.

it sends out to the international community, that UN resolution after

:31:27.:31:29.

UN resolution has been ignored and what they can do to make sure that

:31:30.:31:33.

we can action the one that has just been passed. I agree with the

:31:34.:31:39.

honourable gentleman, such a distinguished addition of the

:31:40.:31:43.

foreign affairs, has he knows we have an outstanding quarry into the

:31:44.:31:47.

British policy towards the Middle East peace process and we will

:31:48.:31:50.

engage in detail, over the months ahead. I thank the honourable

:31:51.:32:00.

gentleman for giving way, having been in Gaza a Kohlschreiber century

:32:01.:32:03.

ago when he is slow process started, are we not in a situation where if

:32:04.:32:07.

we do not recognise and enforce international law, we send a message

:32:08.:32:12.

to other countries in the world that if you cover something in concrete,

:32:13.:32:16.

we will let you get away with it and we will pay the price for it. I

:32:17.:32:25.

agree with the honourable lady, we are dealing with a catastrophe. With

:32:26.:32:31.

its implications, of the settlements. We should not belittle

:32:32.:32:35.

the issue. Settlements are illegal under international law for a

:32:36.:32:39.

reason, you can't conquer someone else's territory and then colonise

:32:40.:32:44.

it. The end of that era was codified in the Geneva convention and

:32:45.:32:50.

-- in 1949. Our experience has been decolonisation, that it should have

:32:51.:32:56.

happened over the last 50 years at the hands of a nation born out of

:32:57.:33:00.

the moral authority of the appalling treatment of the dues in Europe over

:33:01.:33:06.

centuries, that culminated in the Holocaust, is deeply troubling for

:33:07.:33:10.

the admirers of the heroic generation that founded the state of

:33:11.:33:14.

Israel. We rightly talk about all that should be celebrated in Israel,

:33:15.:33:19.

which is often described as a beacon of our shared values in a troubled

:33:20.:33:25.

region. But the truth is that Palestinians, the Arab world, the

:33:26.:33:28.

wider international community, including R.N. Population,

:33:29.:33:34.

increasingly see Israel through the clouded prism of settlements. I will

:33:35.:33:43.

at the end of my honourable friend allows me at the time. Within Israel

:33:44.:33:48.

there is no consensus on settlements and the recent regularisation law

:33:49.:33:53.

has raised a particularly rancorous debate, it was the son of a former

:33:54.:33:57.

Prime Minister and daily cooed member of the car Knesset who dubbed

:33:58.:34:01.

the law as the robbery law. While the head of the Zionist union called

:34:02.:34:10.

it a threat to Israel. And we might also remember that parliaments can't

:34:11.:34:13.

make legal what international law prescribes. He is making good

:34:14.:34:21.

points, does he agree with me that the expansion of illegal settlements

:34:22.:34:24.

is the despair of many people who wish Israel well and plays precisely

:34:25.:34:27.

into the hands of those who believe that there is a cynical intent never

:34:28.:34:32.

to pursue a two state solution. I wholly agree with my honourable

:34:33.:34:38.

friend. And it is stress is me, that the recent signals from the

:34:39.:34:43.

government, briefing against the Kerry speech, not participating in

:34:44.:34:48.

the Paris conference, receiving an Israeli premier who has just resided

:34:49.:34:52.

over the regularisation law and is indeed domestic trouble. Despite the

:34:53.:34:58.

formal reiteration of the British position on settlements, suggests

:34:59.:35:02.

that it doesn't fully appreciate the seriousness of this obstacle to

:35:03.:35:06.

peace, and the threat to the values of a nation, that how history of

:35:07.:35:11.

personal, economic and security relationships makes a firm friend

:35:12.:35:17.

and ally. Friends should not allow each other to make profound and

:35:18.:35:21.

damaging mistakes. Which is why I support this motion. Thank you Mr

:35:22.:35:28.

Deputy Speaker, before I addressed this motion I want to start by

:35:29.:35:31.

condemning the rocket attack on Israel last night when Islamic State

:35:32.:35:37.

fired for rockets from the Sinai peninsular into Eilat and I expect

:35:38.:35:41.

the whole house will want to join me on to that. Three weeks ago I

:35:42.:35:46.

produced a ten minute ruling in support of and its national funding

:35:47.:35:49.

for Israeli - Palestinian peace and at the outset I made clear my

:35:50.:35:53.

opposition to the continuing settlement building in the West

:35:54.:36:00.

Bank, a policy that as I said threatens the viability of a future

:36:01.:36:03.

Palestinian state, the case of which is an arguable, does immense damage

:36:04.:36:07.

to Britain's standing in the world and it will put at risk that which

:36:08.:36:14.

is most precious about Israel's character, its Jewish and democratic

:36:15.:36:17.

character. But I also make clear that settlements are not the only or

:36:18.:36:21.

even the principal opposition to peace. As the former US secretary of

:36:22.:36:27.

state John Kerry who has been much quoted said today in his final

:36:28.:36:31.

speech on the Middle East, the core issues can be resolved, it is with

:36:32.:36:37.

leadership on both sides, committed to finding the solution. In the end

:36:38.:36:41.

"I believe that negotiations did not fail because the gaps are too wide

:36:42.:36:45.

but because the level of trust was too low. I don't believe that

:36:46.:36:49.

settlement building in the West Bank does anything to contribute to

:36:50.:36:53.

raising those levels of trust, in fact quite the reverse but let us be

:36:54.:36:58.

clear, trust has to be built and earned by both sides, it is

:36:59.:37:02.

unfortunate that today's motion makes scant recognition of that

:37:03.:37:07.

fact, so let me outline some of the factors beyond settlement building

:37:08.:37:09.

that contribute to that lack of trust. I'm very grateful, last month

:37:10.:37:17.

I had the privilege to be on a delegation to Israel and Palestine,

:37:18.:37:23.

and we met a group of young Palestinians and young Israelis who

:37:24.:37:32.

are working together, on IT and technology, and that is surely the

:37:33.:37:35.

way forward to build the trust that she talks about. I absolutely agree

:37:36.:37:41.

with my honourable friend, I have also visited that project and it is

:37:42.:37:48.

inspiring and coexistence is building trust. I don't believe

:37:49.:37:52.

trust is built, when the Palestinian Authority pumps out and unrelenting

:37:53.:37:57.

stream of anti-Semitic incitement. Children's programmes that teach

:37:58.:38:02.

their young audiences to dues, the naming of schools, sports

:38:03.:38:04.

tournaments and streets after so-called martyrs and the payment of

:38:05.:38:08.

salaries to convicted terrorists or when it suggests that as the person

:38:09.:38:14.

is state media regularly does, that all this row is occupied territory

:38:15.:38:18.

and when it continues to insist a right to return for the descendants

:38:19.:38:23.

of Palestinian refugees to pre-1967 Israeli territory. I don't believe,

:38:24.:38:33.

that trust has been built by the experience of Gaza, a territory that

:38:34.:38:36.

Israel unilaterally withdrew from 12 years ago only to see it come under

:38:37.:38:42.

the control of Hamas. A group that is committed to the creation of a

:38:43.:38:46.

Palestinian Islamist state from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean

:38:47.:38:53.

Sea. Who use Gaza... I wonder whether, she has been talking about

:38:54.:38:57.

trust, I wonder how she would assess the evacuation of settlements, of

:38:58.:39:03.

settlers, 8000 of them from Gaza to be greeted by almost 20,000 rockets.

:39:04.:39:10.

The honourable gentleman makes his point himself, and we all know that

:39:11.:39:15.

to be greeted by a thousand rockets as gauge do anything but create

:39:16.:39:23.

trust. And of course Hamas use it as a base, Gaza to indiscriminately

:39:24.:39:27.

fire rockets into Israel, which is what I think he's referring to and

:39:28.:39:32.

to build tunnels to carry out terrorist attacks. I would give it

:39:33.:39:37.

away any further. And it which is treatment of women, its political

:39:38.:39:41.

opponents, LGBT community and journalists, shows absolutely no

:39:42.:39:45.

respect for basic human rights of Palestinian people. Nor is trust

:39:46.:39:49.

built when those international institutions which might be expected

:39:50.:39:53.

to foster a settlement and promote the values of peace and

:39:54.:39:56.

reconciliation, show that they cannot act as honest brokers. The UN

:39:57.:40:02.

General Assembly that ended its 20 16th annual legislative session with

:40:03.:40:07.

20 resolutions against Israel. And only six resolutions on the rest of

:40:08.:40:14.

the world combined. That included three on Syria, one each on Iran,

:40:15.:40:19.

North Korea and Crimea. 20 on Israel. There is no balance there.

:40:20.:40:25.

The UN human rights Council which in its first decade of existence

:40:26.:40:29.

adopted 135 resolutions, 68 of them attacking Israel. More than half. Or

:40:30.:40:36.

Unesco which has denied the Jewish people's deep historic connection

:40:37.:40:39.

with Judaism's holiest sites in Jerusalem. As supporters of a two

:40:40.:40:44.

state solution, we should commit ourselves to building with and

:40:45.:40:48.

between histories and Palestinians. We should do that in both words and

:40:49.:40:54.

our actions. In Dow words, we should seek to avoid emotive language which

:40:55.:40:58.

feeds a narrative convict him and villain. We should recognise and

:40:59.:41:04.

encourage a need for compromise and we should never fail to acknowledge

:41:05.:41:08.

the complexities of a conflict which has endurance for decades and whose

:41:09.:41:12.

roots run deep. In our actions we should steer clear of simplistic

:41:13.:41:18.

solutions, such as the BDS movement. A movement which by seeking to

:41:19.:41:21.

delegitimise and demonise the world's only Jewish state, is both

:41:22.:41:27.

morally wrong and does nothing to further the cause that it claims to

:41:28.:41:32.

support. We should give knowing coachman to those who denies

:41:33.:41:36.

Israel's right to exist and refuse to announce violence. Hamas and

:41:37.:41:39.

Hezbollah are no friends to the cause of two state solution. And we

:41:40.:41:45.

should do all that we can to assist those in both Israel and Palestine

:41:46.:41:49.

who are working for peace and reconciliation. That is why I

:41:50.:41:52.

believe that the greatest contribution that Britain can make

:41:53.:41:55.

towards building strong constituencies for peace in Israel

:41:56.:42:01.

and Palestine, is by increasing our support for coexistence work. People

:42:02.:42:04.

to people projects that bring together it is radius and

:42:05.:42:08.

Palestinians at the grassroots level, and backing the establishment

:42:09.:42:13.

of an international fund for Israeli and Palestinian peace. The absence

:42:14.:42:16.

of such constituencies is all too apparent. While 59% of Israelis and

:42:17.:42:23.

51% of Palestinians still support a two state solution, he's already

:42:24.:42:28.

slim majorities are fragile and threatened by fear and distrust

:42:29.:42:33.

between the two people. So after two decades, there is now a significant

:42:34.:42:38.

body of evidence indicating the impact that coexistence projects can

:42:39.:42:42.

have, despite the challenging environment in which they exist.

:42:43.:42:45.

Those participating in such programmes report higher levels of

:42:46.:42:50.

trust, high levels of cooperation, more conflict resolution values,

:42:51.:42:55.

less oppression and loneliness. These are the kind of measures that

:42:56.:43:00.

we should be supporting, I call on the government to support

:43:01.:43:04.

international fund for history and Palestinian peace. Thank you Mr

:43:05.:43:11.

Deputy Speaker, I have no doubt that today we would see an impassioned

:43:12.:43:14.

debate and we have already got off to a good start and we can see quite

:43:15.:43:19.

clearly used from both sides of this particular issue. I think it is

:43:20.:43:22.

right however to begin by emphasising that as other members

:43:23.:43:26.

have said, is ready settlements are not by a long stretch the main

:43:27.:43:30.

obstacle to peace between Israel and the Palestinians. The number ten

:43:31.:43:34.

spokesman said in December, that it is far from the only problem in this

:43:35.:43:40.

conflict. And the people of this rail deserve to live free from the

:43:41.:43:44.

threat of terrorism, which they had to cope with for far too long. Mr

:43:45.:43:51.

Deputy Speaker, it seems to be the narrative that the conflict we see

:43:52.:43:56.

today started in 1967 when it's regained control of West Bank and

:43:57.:44:00.

Gaza. And I ask these members to consider why then was the violence

:44:01.:44:05.

in this region, why did it predates the existence of the settlement. It

:44:06.:44:09.

is worth recalling that the West Bank and Gaza were occupied prior to

:44:10.:44:17.

1967, not by Israel but by Jordan and Egypt respectively. During these

:44:18.:44:21.

occupations they refused to grant citizenship to Palestinian refugees,

:44:22.:44:27.

where is the condemnation of Jordan and Egypt? Nor did they surrender

:44:28.:44:30.

the territory for a Palestinian state, where is that condemnation of

:44:31.:44:37.

Egypt and Jordan? The international outcry was deferred until Israel

:44:38.:44:39.

occupied the disputed land at which point it became unacceptable for

:44:40.:44:45.

that occupation to take place. From that point onward it was

:44:46.:44:49.

unacceptable, prior to that no condemnation. I wish to make the

:44:50.:44:54.

point that legality is not subjective, it is often said that

:44:55.:44:58.

Israeli settlements are illegal. But stating this repeatedly does not

:44:59.:45:04.

make it true. Please bear with me, for a moment. The West Bank and Gaza

:45:05.:45:11.

remain as they have always been, disputed territories. Under

:45:12.:45:15.

international law. It has never been a Palestinian state. So the

:45:16.:45:20.

territory remains odourless, that is a strong argument for some. It is

:45:21.:45:25.

not so one that I necessarily ascribed to -- remains without an

:45:26.:45:32.

owner. The whole point of the chamber, is that we achieve exposes

:45:33.:45:36.

argument and discuss them and not seek merely to rehearse in trench

:45:37.:45:39.

positions, otherwise what is the point of a debate. I will give way

:45:40.:45:41.

to the gentleman. I was simply going to say that I

:45:42.:45:52.

think he's making an important point. The truth is that in 1947 a

:45:53.:45:59.

Palestinian state was proposed but not established by other Arab

:46:00.:46:05.

countries who chose to invade Israel at the moment of the establishment.

:46:06.:46:09.

A Palestinian state could have been established at any point in the next

:46:10.:46:14.

20 years by Egypt who was controlling Gaza, or Jordan who were

:46:15.:46:17.

controlling the West Bank. I think is completely right to make this

:46:18.:46:21.

point. I am grateful for the intervention. When people criticise

:46:22.:46:25.

Israel for demolishing tunnels and building walls and erasing

:46:26.:46:29.

buildings, they make no comment when Egypt does exactly the same. The

:46:30.:46:34.

international community is silent on Egypt and only vocal on Israel. And

:46:35.:46:39.

as the honourable member for Enfield North said, where is the balance? I

:46:40.:46:43.

made the point about the view that some people believe that settlements

:46:44.:46:47.

are not illegal because the land is odourless, I don't subscribe to that

:46:48.:46:51.

view, but the reason it is important to make it is because people hold

:46:52.:46:56.

that the very firmly, it is a divisive issue. As the honourable

:46:57.:47:03.

member for Enfield North said, it is a fundamental issue of building

:47:04.:47:06.

trust and unless you can build trust and deal with the issue of disputed

:47:07.:47:09.

lands then that trust deficit is going to continue. I think the

:47:10.:47:16.

honourable member for giving way, and on the issue of trust would he

:47:17.:47:20.

not agree with me that the issue of trust was almost ended as far as

:47:21.:47:27.

Israel was concerned when, as a result of removing all settlements

:47:28.:47:31.

from Gaza, the only result was a torrent, avalanche of rockets and

:47:32.:47:38.

missiles as a result? My honourable and long-time friend makes a good

:47:39.:47:43.

point. Everybody talks about Israel giving up land for peace, they have

:47:44.:47:46.

given land, they did not get peace. I have to say I wholly support, I

:47:47.:47:55.

wholeheartedly hope and support a two state solution and that it can

:47:56.:48:01.

be established with trust on both sides, but only two parties can

:48:02.:48:06.

decide on borders and other status issues and those two parties are

:48:07.:48:11.

Israel and the Palestinians. Accordingly I welcome the fact that

:48:12.:48:19.

direct peace talks remain the best way to secure a solution. Direct

:48:20.:48:24.

talks between the two parties involved, not European conferences

:48:25.:48:27.

excluding one of the parties. And as I said before the two state solution

:48:28.:48:34.

we also bought should be the end -- we all support should be the end and

:48:35.:48:38.

not the start of the process. I strongly believe that debates like

:48:39.:48:41.

this need to focus on the whole and complex picture and not just one

:48:42.:48:48.

particular aspect. Likewise, Mr Deputy Speaker, I do not believe

:48:49.:48:53.

that the UN Security Council resolution 2334 helps advance peace

:48:54.:48:57.

as it focuses on Israeli settlements and only serves to reward

:48:58.:49:00.

Palestinian intransigence and unilateralism. On particular

:49:01.:49:08.

concerns of my constituents, 2334 defines east Jerusalem as

:49:09.:49:12.

Palestinian territory occupied since 1967 including the Western Wall, the

:49:13.:49:19.

Judaea and holiest sites, and this area includes the holy sites of

:49:20.:49:22.

Christianity where Jesus practised his ministry. This definition

:49:23.:49:26.

implies that both dues and Christians visiting their holiest

:49:27.:49:32.

sites are acting illegally and that is an affront to both alike. I'm

:49:33.:49:44.

trying to reflect the concerns, I will not give way, I'm trying to

:49:45.:49:48.

reflect the concerns of my constituents. Honourable members may

:49:49.:49:51.

not like the views of my constituents but it is my job to

:49:52.:49:54.

represent my constituents in balanced debate, whether or other

:49:55.:50:00.

honourable members dislike it or not, that is the purpose of a

:50:01.:50:04.

constituency MP and that is what I seek to do. I have already said,

:50:05.:50:11.

Israel has given up land for peace, it has not had the piece, and it is

:50:12.:50:15.

important that this government continues to support, nudge and

:50:16.:50:19.

cajole our ally to take the right course. But acting unilaterally, a

:50:20.:50:26.

premature declaration of statehood for the Palestinians would put back

:50:27.:50:31.

peace and not pursue it. If we support the Balfour declaration we

:50:32.:50:34.

must stand alongside our ally, Israel, and make it work. Thank you.

:50:35.:50:44.

Ian Paisley. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I do believe the point that

:50:45.:50:47.

has been made and that is the best way to resolve this apparent

:50:48.:50:53.

intractable problem is the way that peace processes have been resolved

:50:54.:50:56.

around the world and that is by face-to-face negotiations by the

:50:57.:51:01.

people on the ground and not by grandiose schemes which play to

:51:02.:51:06.

certain galleries and certain outside influences. And I think that

:51:07.:51:11.

that's an important starting point for any peace process that could

:51:12.:51:18.

ultimately work. Settlements are a symptom of the conflict in Israel,

:51:19.:51:23.

they are not the cause. And if anyone thinks that they are the

:51:24.:51:27.

cause of the conflict they do not understand what has happened in that

:51:28.:51:33.

land. History shows that the unilateral removed meant of

:51:34.:51:36.

settlements in the past, the evacuation of settlements in the

:51:37.:51:41.

past did not generate peace at all, but in fact inspired more rocket

:51:42.:51:47.

attacks and the deaths of more innocents in other settlements,

:51:48.:51:52.

that's what they actually did. And instead of being part of a peace

:51:53.:51:56.

process, the unilateral removed meant of settlements would be a

:51:57.:52:00.

peace by peace process, a step-by-step process towards more

:52:01.:52:06.

attacks on innocent people. So let's stop the hand-wringing, let's stop

:52:07.:52:10.

the pretence that it unilateral move on a settlement will make peace, it

:52:11.:52:17.

actually work, and for some, not in this chamber, but for some it is

:52:18.:52:22.

cover for more aggression and foremost, I believe, it is misguided

:52:23.:52:27.

view on what is happening on the ground. You can't negotiate away

:52:28.:52:36.

settlements in advance. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way

:52:37.:52:40.

and I support the point that he's making. Would he like to contrast

:52:41.:52:47.

the failure of Israel's unilateral decisions to remove settlements from

:52:48.:52:52.

Gaza in relation to securing peace and compared that with the agreement

:52:53.:52:59.

that was made with Egypt in 1979 when Israel withdrew and demolished

:53:00.:53:04.

its settlements as part of an agreement, an agreement which has

:53:05.:53:08.

lasted to this day? The right honourable lady who has much

:53:09.:53:13.

experience and knowledge of the area makes a vital point. In fact if you

:53:14.:53:17.

look at the history of the area, Israel has a very good track record

:53:18.:53:22.

of agreeing concessions on territory whenever peace is made, that was the

:53:23.:53:29.

history in 1979, whenever they made an agreement, what did they do?

:53:30.:53:35.

Israel gave up critical, Sinai, 91% of the territory that they won in

:53:36.:53:39.

1967, they gave that up once peace was agreed, as part of that piece

:53:40.:53:45.

they again moved into the settlement in Sinai and destroyed it completely

:53:46.:53:51.

and removed it. In Jordan, what was the attitude of the Israelis?

:53:52.:53:54.

Whenever they got a settlement they redeployed both sides to their

:53:55.:53:57.

respective sides and agreed to the international boundaries, so I think

:53:58.:54:02.

the point made by the honourable lady is supported by facts on the

:54:03.:54:08.

ground at the end of a peace process. You cannot, and I have been

:54:09.:54:13.

part of a peace process, you cannot make a major concession at the

:54:14.:54:16.

beginning of a peace process and think it starts at that point, you

:54:17.:54:22.

make the concessions at the end on the basis of an agreement, that's

:54:23.:54:29.

what needs to take place. I think the honourable gentleman for giving

:54:30.:54:33.

way. Can he just tell the house whether he agrees that Israeli

:54:34.:54:39.

settlements are illegal and actually while it is not the only factor it

:54:40.:54:43.

is critical to ensuring that we address that and we acknowledge

:54:44.:54:49.

that. Second point in relation to Gaza is that 800,000 children are

:54:50.:54:54.

living in, as the former prime ministers described it, one of the

:54:55.:54:59.

world's biggest open prisons. These are major humanitarian issues that

:55:00.:55:03.

we need to confront and address. To be absolutely clear I am not

:55:04.:55:07.

dismissing any of the major humanitarian issues, I have absolute

:55:08.:55:11.

sympathy and absolute concern and passion for the needs of Israeli and

:55:12.:55:15.

Palestinian children, Israeli and Palestinian men and women, that they

:55:16.:55:19.

live in a new, harmonious, peaceful countries. What we have to get to

:55:20.:55:24.

the point of how do we get to that solution of countries? And the only

:55:25.:55:30.

objective, the terms of reference for any negotiation should be the

:55:31.:55:33.

starting point, and where we want to get to is a piece fell, -- peaceful

:55:34.:55:40.

secure Israel side-by-side with a sovereign Palestine. That is a two

:55:41.:55:44.

state solution and the only way you will achieve that is by face-to-face

:55:45.:55:48.

negotiations by the practitioners on the ground. Most members will have

:55:49.:55:53.

had the opportunity in the last day or so to walk through the upper

:55:54.:55:59.

committee corridor and see the project which shows women from

:56:00.:56:07.

across Israel and Palestine of different races, different creeds,

:56:08.:56:11.

different backgrounds are asked to do one thing, and that is to paint

:56:12.:56:15.

an olive tree. And all of those different women have given very

:56:16.:56:18.

different perspectives. But they've painted the same thing in all its

:56:19.:56:23.

glory. And the important issue of that experiment shows that if you

:56:24.:56:28.

put the people together on the ground and allow them to negotiate

:56:29.:56:31.

and do something face-to-face you will ultimately get to a solution.

:56:32.:56:37.

So the message that we should send out today is very clear and

:56:38.:56:41.

unequivocal. Only Israelis and Palestinians sitting down together

:56:42.:56:44.

face-to-face can actually sort this out and achieve peace in a much

:56:45.:56:52.

tortured and battled region. Due to the number of interventions we are

:56:53.:56:55.

going to have to go down to four minutes already. Thank you. And I'd

:56:56.:57:03.

like to give credit to everybody who has spoken, I think every speech has

:57:04.:57:09.

added to the debate and I'm very grateful that this has cross-party

:57:10.:57:13.

support bringing this debate forwards. I'd also like to say that

:57:14.:57:18.

so far I don't think we've been straitjacket by polarised views. I

:57:19.:57:23.

don't think that if you criticise Palestine that means you are an

:57:24.:57:27.

apologist for the occupation, I don't think it means if you

:57:28.:57:30.

criticise Israel policies you are against Israel or anti-Semitic. And

:57:31.:57:36.

I deplore Hamas support for terrorism and I deplore the building

:57:37.:57:42.

of settlements and outposts beyond the Green line. The motion says on

:57:43.:57:51.

our monitors occupied Palestinian territories, Israeli settlements,

:57:52.:57:53.

doesn't give credit to the full motion and with the two state

:57:54.:57:56.

solution and asking for our government to take a more active

:57:57.:58:00.

role means it it is a very important debate. Very important debate in

:58:01.:58:08.

this year. It is a year of sad anniversaries. Anniversaries of

:58:09.:58:10.

occupation in that area, anniversaries of a blockade. And

:58:11.:58:16.

vitally for us and our government today the Centenary of the Balfour

:58:17.:58:23.

declaration which did commend the establishment of a national home for

:58:24.:58:28.

the Jewish people. As the member for Reigate said, it also says it

:58:29.:58:32.

clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice

:58:33.:58:37.

the civil and religious rights of the existing non-Jewish population

:58:38.:58:42.

in Palestine, and that's where our role is critical. It is correct that

:58:43.:58:50.

the settlements are illegal. I know there is some dispute about the

:58:51.:58:57.

Geneva Convention. However we do have the International Court of

:58:58.:59:02.

justice, Red Cross and United Nations security council claiming it

:59:03.:59:06.

is illegal. We have President Obama and of course Secretary of State

:59:07.:59:12.

John Kerry saying in December, even Ronald Reagan claimed the

:59:13.:59:15.

settlements were illegal. I'm grateful to the honourable lady for

:59:16.:59:18.

giving way, she is making a good speech. Does she agree that the

:59:19.:59:22.

government is to become rich related for supporting resolution 2334 and

:59:23.:59:28.

will she be looking to the Minister to say what action the government is

:59:29.:59:32.

planning to take to enforce 2334 -- element is to be, wretch related. I

:59:33.:59:40.

appreciate the intervention and as is the problem with so many

:59:41.:59:46.

resolutions, 2336 and also 2442 and 181, guess I would commend to the

:59:47.:59:51.

Minister to tell us what actions, very much so. Also, as we know, the

:59:52.:59:59.

settlements have been increasing. Over 100 settlements and worryingly

:00:00.:00:04.

the outposts as well, over 100. Increasing in population, increasing

:00:05.:00:10.

the number and increasing in the geographical area that they are

:00:11.:00:14.

coming up against. I will in a moment. And of concern, as anybody

:00:15.:00:19.

who has seen the images of settlements in the area just by

:00:20.:00:24.

Jerusalem, even one area as it is called, which may actually split the

:00:25.:00:28.

Palestinian West Bank north and south, already as people have said

:00:29.:00:32.

since 1947, Gaza and the West Bank had separated. And yet this year

:00:33.:00:37.

there is danger of even more fractionation in the area.

:00:38.:00:45.

Does the Honourable Lady agree with me that the regularisation last

:00:46.:00:53.

Monday by the Israeli government makes the two state solution even

:00:54.:00:57.

more difficult. Now we have a situation where previously

:00:58.:01:00.

settlements were illegal and now they are legal under Israeli law? I

:01:01.:01:07.

absolutely agree with the honourable member, this is why this debate is

:01:08.:01:15.

critical and while at you agree with the other members talking about

:01:16.:01:22.

trust, I believe that many Israelis and Palestinians have wonderful

:01:23.:01:24.

projects and I also have witnessed many. But there is a problem, where

:01:25.:01:35.

settlements, and outposts are in land that is all so private

:01:36.:01:40.

Palestinian land. I have been in the region in a conflict period, and I

:01:41.:01:47.

have witnessed, many events, but the only time I saw and Uzi being fired

:01:48.:02:01.

at a school was by a secular and not anybody in military uniform.

:02:02.:02:05.

Therefore it is critical, Howard government has failed part of that

:02:06.:02:09.

bow declaration, and I am keen to hear what the minister says in reply

:02:10.:02:14.

to honourable members who have talked about, yes now is the time,

:02:15.:02:19.

to recognise a Palestinian state. But also, even if all of the

:02:20.:02:23.

settlements and outposts were dismantled today, they would not be

:02:24.:02:30.

peace because negotiations have to proceed about matters of Borders

:02:31.:02:34.

Andrew Samantha refugees right to return and also Israeli bases. Thank

:02:35.:02:42.

you. And I want to say today that I oppose anything that stands in the

:02:43.:02:45.

way of the creation of the two state solution which I believe in and have

:02:46.:02:49.

campaigned for in all my life but it is wrong to suggest as this motion

:02:50.:02:54.

does that settlement is the only barrier or even the biggest barrier

:02:55.:02:58.

to this process, you have got to look at the absence of the

:02:59.:03:01.

Palestinian Authority to. The denial, or that is troublesome right

:03:02.:03:07.

to exist. Incitement to violence by its media and senior officials. And

:03:08.:03:14.

by its Ministry of education. On that point would my honourable

:03:15.:03:19.

friend agree, is that they distinguish between legitimate

:03:20.:03:23.

criticism of this rail, Andy digitalised and novice rail which is

:03:24.:03:28.

questioning its very right to exist? That is completely right, and that

:03:29.:03:33.

is why the Palestinian authorities denying his rubble smack right to

:03:34.:03:35.

exist is not something that builds trust that we have heard this

:03:36.:03:41.

afternoon. Nor is the incentivising of terrorism through the payments of

:03:42.:03:46.

salaries to convicted terrorists. Does anybody seriously believe Mr

:03:47.:03:50.

Deputy Speaker that the settlements are a bigger barrier to the peace

:03:51.:03:55.

process, and Hamas is not at the moment. They are terrorism and

:03:56.:04:00.

extremism. Setting goals of explicit rejection of not just Israel's right

:04:01.:04:04.

to exist but the very idea of a peace process that would involve the

:04:05.:04:09.

surrender of Islamic land. This is an organisation that spends millions

:04:10.:04:13.

and uses building materials, hospital schools and homes on

:04:14.:04:18.

tunnels and terror. It pioneered suicide bombing in the Middle East,

:04:19.:04:22.

it then celebrated murder of Israelis in bars and restaurants.

:04:23.:04:28.

Now it is not the case, not at the moment, it is not the case as has

:04:29.:04:32.

been suggested during this debate, that settlements make the prospect

:04:33.:04:37.

of a two state solution impossible. It is not the case of that. I don't

:04:38.:04:42.

defend the settlement building. The house should recognise both that

:04:43.:04:46.

Israel has shown its willingness to evacuate before, from Sinai in 1982

:04:47.:04:52.

as we have heard, as part of the camp David accords. And when it

:04:53.:04:58.

withdrew from Gaza in 2005. The house should also recognise. I

:04:59.:05:03.

wonder whether he should congratulate Israel, in the last

:05:04.:05:09.

month they removed 50 families from some land? He's completely right to

:05:10.:05:16.

raise it, because it has not been discussed by any of the people who

:05:17.:05:20.

have spoken in this debate before. It is also important for the house

:05:21.:05:26.

to recognise that 75% of the settlers are Ron 6.3% of land so

:05:27.:05:30.

when people talk about the West Bank being concreted over, they are

:05:31.:05:35.

factually wrong. It is not true. I am not giving away any more, I have

:05:36.:05:39.

given way twice, so this issue can be dealt with through land swaps,

:05:40.:05:45.

that was accepted as a principle for building a peace process, in all

:05:46.:05:52.

recent negotiations. And a plan under which this could have been

:05:53.:05:59.

achieved. Now I say this, because I want to argue that with compromise

:06:00.:06:04.

with creativity, with concessions on both sides, the right of both

:06:05.:06:10.

Israeli and Palestinian people write to determination and peace has been

:06:11.:06:16.

secured. There are considerable other challenges, Jerusalem,

:06:17.:06:19.

security, refugees. But it is rude important to recognise as well, as

:06:20.:06:23.

has not been sufficiently recognised in this debate so far that the

:06:24.:06:28.

majority is on both sides still favour a two state solution. And

:06:29.:06:31.

that none of these issues are insurmountable. If there is a

:06:32.:06:35.

willingness on both sides to negotiate and to compromise and to

:06:36.:06:39.

make concessions. The truth Mr Deputy Speaker is this, there is no

:06:40.:06:51.

alternative that will end the bloodshed so instead of one-sided

:06:52.:06:53.

and simplistic motions, instead of calls, for grand international

:06:54.:06:55.

jesters, unilaterally imposed, on the peoples of this run and

:06:56.:06:59.

Palestine. Incidentally grand gestures that suggest, which are

:07:00.:07:01.

actually counter-productive to the cause of police, what they do

:07:02.:07:06.

suggest to the Palestinian Authority, and the leadership of the

:07:07.:07:11.

Palestinians, that there is a reach to the Palestinian state that can be

:07:12.:07:15.

opposed from outside that doesn't involve face to face direct talks

:07:16.:07:20.

and negotiations which is the only way that this issue is going to be

:07:21.:07:24.

solved. The truth is that there is no alternative, that will end the

:07:25.:07:32.

bloodshed. Now we should be doing everything that we can to promote

:07:33.:07:37.

direct negotiations between the two sides to build trust instead of

:07:38.:07:40.

boycott, sanctions and other measures which tried people further

:07:41.:07:44.

and further apart. I want Britain to support organisations and the one we

:07:45.:07:47.

heard about early in Jerusalem, that bring

:07:48.:07:55.

Israelis and Palestinians working together and building the

:07:56.:07:59.

foundations for the two viable states peacefully alongside each

:08:00.:08:02.

other. I think it would have been good if more members had been in

:08:03.:08:06.

strangers dining room yesterday to hear about the weak side project and

:08:07.:08:10.

what the women, Jewish, slim and Christian women in Israel and in

:08:11.:08:15.

Palestine are doing to work together to create the building blocks for

:08:16.:08:18.

peace. I want Britain to be doing more to promote economic developers,

:08:19.:08:23.

trade and investment in the West Bank. Encouraging brilliant projects

:08:24.:08:26.

like I have seen, the new city in the West Bank. And I want to see

:08:27.:08:32.

Britain pushing internationally for Gaza. Madam Deputy Speaker these

:08:33.:08:39.

talks have produced results in the pass, they have come close to a

:08:40.:08:42.

breakthrough on several occasions since and they will have to do so

:08:43.:08:45.

again because the any way in which this conflict will be resolved is by

:08:46.:08:50.

people on both sides, negotiating, compromising and working together

:08:51.:08:56.

towards a two state solution. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a

:08:57.:08:58.

great pleasure to follow the honourable member for Dudley North

:08:59.:09:03.

on this. It cost like him and like his honourable friend, I have been

:09:04.:09:08.

fully involved in six visits to Israel and the West Bank over the

:09:09.:09:14.

last three years. With organisations, that encourage the

:09:15.:09:17.

cooperation between Israelis and Palestinians. I do that here,

:09:18.:09:25.

chairing events here, where the organisations that do that, come

:09:26.:09:29.

forward, and describe what they are doing. And I have on several

:09:30.:09:35.

occasions, been in Jerusalem, in Tel Aviv, to see safer child is out. A

:09:36.:09:44.

print organisation goes out of its way to treat Palestinian children,

:09:45.:09:50.

that have problems with hearts. It is fine surgery, that requires a

:09:51.:09:55.

great deal of skill. Now why is there not, yes I will give way. I

:09:56.:10:03.

thank my rubble friend, he mentions it, but also children and other

:10:04.:10:12.

children are saved at St John's heart. I thank durable gentleman,

:10:13.:10:23.

the number of people who are treated by the Israeli doctors there is

:10:24.:10:27.

phenomenal and it sets a print example for the whole of the region.

:10:28.:10:33.

I'm grateful for giving way, I just want to emphasise this point, the

:10:34.:10:37.

honourable gentleman find me is laughing and steering in his usual

:10:38.:10:42.

way. He ought to listen to this, it is an important point com you coming

:10:43.:10:49.

to these debates and you hear this binary, mandatory Speaker they can

:10:50.:10:53.

shout as much as they like but I am going to speak. Order, no one can

:10:54.:10:58.

shout as much as they like, the honourable member will be heard. Mad

:10:59.:11:03.

and empty speaker the truth is, you coming to these debates in a binary

:11:04.:11:07.

and simplistic and polarise debate when the truth about Israel and

:11:08.:11:11.

Palestine is that people on the ground are working together,

:11:12.:11:14.

cooperating, talking, building the peace process that we want to see

:11:15.:11:17.

and it is about time that people listen to that argument and it is

:11:18.:11:20.

about time that people listen to that argument instead of laughing at

:11:21.:11:23.

it. I do thank the honourable gentleman very kindly for his

:11:24.:11:26.

comments because I was about to come onto that. I've given way twice, I'm

:11:27.:11:36.

not giving way to gain. Order, we are having very short speeches, the

:11:37.:11:41.

interventions had been longer than the speeches, let us allow Mr Hull

:11:42.:11:45.

to make his speech top blue thank you very much, the point I was

:11:46.:11:52.

making, here we have a wonderful example of cooperation. Between the

:11:53.:11:57.

Israelis and the Palestinians and here we are fictional one issue. On

:11:58.:12:02.

settlements. Settlements are not as we have heard, I would be the first

:12:03.:12:09.

to admit that settlement expansion is counter-productive, but we have

:12:10.:12:12.

heard from Speaker after speaker that settlements are not the cause

:12:13.:12:19.

of conflict, they are not the cause of violence, and that long predates

:12:20.:12:23.

the existence of settlements, in this part of the world. If that is

:12:24.:12:31.

the case, why Pawi discussing this on picking settlements have?

:12:32.:12:36.

Settlements are one of the five status issues, which includes

:12:37.:12:41.

settlements, borders, the status of Jerusalem, security and includes

:12:42.:12:46.

Palestinian sovereignty. There are a whole range of issues that need to

:12:47.:12:51.

be addressed, if this is to be moved forward. And I was able in a recent

:12:52.:12:57.

meeting of the Council of Europe to expand upon this for a little

:12:58.:13:03.

longer, than I have got left now. In particular in relation to the

:13:04.:13:10.

activities of Hamas in Gaza, where of course, the Israelis pulled out

:13:11.:13:16.

8000 Israeli settlers, including their dead. And have been greeted by

:13:17.:13:24.

almost 20,000 rockets, launched at them. The interesting thing about

:13:25.:13:28.

Gaza which I think has already been mentioned by one of my rubble

:13:29.:13:33.

friends, is that the restrictions on Gaza have been implemented by Egypt

:13:34.:13:39.

as well as Israel. And I spoke to Anwar Sadat, the leader of the

:13:40.:13:42.

reform and development party of Egypt who said that we are not going

:13:43.:13:47.

to sort out the problems of Gaza, until terrorism in Egypt stops.

:13:48.:13:56.

Settlements for example in East Jerusalem, account for 1% of the

:13:57.:14:03.

territory. So this motion today calls for the internationalisation

:14:04.:14:06.

of the peace process, and I do think that is very productive, what is

:14:07.:14:10.

required, the question has been raised on a number of occasions,

:14:11.:14:15.

what is required, what should we do. The thing that is required is direct

:14:16.:14:19.

peace talks between Israel and Palestinians without preconditions.

:14:20.:14:24.

Unfortunately the Palestinian side, comes up with preconditions every

:14:25.:14:28.

time. And those preconditions usually involve the release of yet

:14:29.:14:33.

more terrorists. But if you look at Israel's record of the settlements,

:14:34.:14:39.

in 2010, there was a ten month moratorium, but the Palestinians

:14:40.:14:45.

only allowed nine months to slip by, before they resumed peace talks. So

:14:46.:14:50.

they didn't take it seriously. In 2017 with a month ago, Israel

:14:51.:14:59.

evicted 50 families at home. In 2005, we saw the situation in Gaza.

:15:00.:15:06.

And in 2008, we saw, a fantastic offer from Israel, to withdraw from

:15:07.:15:14.

94% of the West Bank. The issue that needs to be discussed, is really how

:15:15.:15:20.

this fits in, with land swaps. And that is an issue that needs to be

:15:21.:15:25.

dealt with, face to face in negotiations between the two

:15:26.:15:29.

parties. Because at the moment all that his role has got is a denial of

:15:30.:15:33.

its right to exist and intensification of violence and

:15:34.:15:35.

demands for release of yet more terrorists.

:15:36.:15:39.

I don't think anybody should ignore the fact this is happening because

:15:40.:15:43.

the Palestinians are scared of their own elections and that is because

:15:44.:15:47.

polling suggests that they are going to lose whether they are the

:15:48.:15:53.

Palestinian Authority or whether they are hammer, and sadly, sadly,

:15:54.:15:58.

they are going to be succeeded by organisations that are in favour of

:15:59.:16:06.

Isis. Thank you, I'd also like to thank the honourable member for

:16:07.:16:10.

securing this important debate. This isn't the first time I have raised

:16:11.:16:15.

this issue in Parliament and sadly I'm sure it will not be the last. In

:16:16.:16:21.

2012 when I was the chair of Labour friends of Palestine in the Middle

:16:22.:16:24.

East I had the privilege of visiting the West Bank for the second time

:16:25.:16:29.

and saw first-hand the degrading and inhuman way Palestinians were

:16:30.:16:33.

treated by the Israelis who had demolished or stolen their homes. I

:16:34.:16:36.

also saw the effect this had on Palestinian businesses. It is

:16:37.:16:42.

indescribable suffering experienced and the sense of loss by the

:16:43.:16:49.

Palestinian people. This is a loss which is illegal under international

:16:50.:16:52.

law, a theft of land which continues to be denounced by world leaders

:16:53.:16:57.

across the globe and condemned, quite rightly, by the United

:16:58.:17:04.

Nations. Above all else these perpetual land grabs are not only

:17:05.:17:08.

immoral and illegal but also a barrier to peace. Whilst the

:17:09.:17:14.

Palestinians must also provide assurances that Israel will be able

:17:15.:17:20.

to live in peace, be Israelis must to come to peace talks in good

:17:21.:17:26.

faith. How can Palestinians take a peace offer seriously with in the

:17:27.:17:29.

settlements continue to be built? How can they trust Israel to

:17:30.:17:36.

recognise a Palestinian state when their homes are being demolished?

:17:37.:17:39.

How can Palestinians believe that there is a genuine two state

:17:40.:17:44.

solution based on the 1967 borders when Israel continues its

:17:45.:17:52.

encirclement of East Jerusalem? The settlements must stop in order to

:17:53.:17:55.

give any framework for peace a chance. And Britain must be at the

:17:56.:18:03.

forefront of this effort. We all know that Britain has a moral

:18:04.:18:07.

responsibility to the Palestinian people given our role in the region

:18:08.:18:10.

and our betrayal of the people who lived under our mandate after the

:18:11.:18:16.

First World War. Given that the new president in the White House, our

:18:17.:18:24.

country, its leadership has to provide a more important role. Many

:18:25.:18:30.

in this house may be sceptical that the US has ever been an honest

:18:31.:18:34.

broker in this conflict. However, despite strong ties with Israel the

:18:35.:18:39.

US has condemned settlements and aggression previously. Trump's view

:18:40.:18:42.

of the conflict appears to be a world apart from the former

:18:43.:18:47.

Secretary of State, John Kerry's. I will make progress. Trump has made

:18:48.:18:53.

potentially inflammatory remarks about moving the US Embassy to

:18:54.:18:57.

Jerusalem and has selected a pro-settlement real estate lawyer as

:18:58.:19:01.

the US ambassador to that country. So emboldened is the Israeli right

:19:02.:19:08.

within days of the Trump inauguration, the Israeli government

:19:09.:19:12.

announced its plans to build a further 2500 housing units in the

:19:13.:19:17.

West Bank. I'm grateful to my honourable friend. Does he agree

:19:18.:19:23.

that in order to make it clear to the Israelis how unsatisfactory the

:19:24.:19:28.

situation is, we should adopt the same policy as we have adopted

:19:29.:19:32.

towards the Russians over their invasion of Crimea and introduce

:19:33.:19:37.

personal sanctions on those people who promote and benefit from the

:19:38.:19:47.

settlements? I appreciate my honourable friend and I agree there

:19:48.:19:51.

has to be consistency in terms of British foreign relation attitudes

:19:52.:19:54.

towards different countries across the world. Let me start to conclude.

:19:55.:20:02.

I am glad that Britain, alongside the EU, denounced this awful

:20:03.:20:04.

regulation or in terms of these further housing units being built.

:20:05.:20:09.

It allayed some fears I have that Britain is turning its back on the

:20:10.:20:15.

safeguarding of human rights. But I worry that in this post Brexit

:20:16.:20:20.

world, such values will be sidelined if the government seeks to secure

:20:21.:20:24.

trade deals. I know that trade was on the agenda at the Prime

:20:25.:20:27.

Minister's meeting with the Israeli Prime Minister and I'm sure there

:20:28.:20:30.

are many benefits which can be brought about by this new trade

:20:31.:20:36.

working group. Can the Minister assure me and colleagues that the UK

:20:37.:20:40.

opposition to these new settlements in the West Bank will be made

:20:41.:20:44.

forcefully? Can the Minister assure us that increased trade with Israel

:20:45.:20:48.

will not benefit those making a living out of the illegal

:20:49.:20:53.

occupation? It is small steps like this which could make a difference.

:20:54.:21:00.

Let me conclude, Madam Deputy Speaker, Britain must live up to its

:21:01.:21:02.

responsibilities to the Palestinians. The aid we give makes

:21:03.:21:07.

a difference and must continue. So must our criticism of illegal

:21:08.:21:13.

settlements. Condemnation must get louder if the United States

:21:14.:21:16.

administration chooses to completely turn its back on the Palestinian

:21:17.:21:24.

people. Bob Blackman. Thank you, my pleasure to follow the honourable

:21:25.:21:27.

member for Rochdale who gave an elegant speech. This motion before

:21:28.:21:32.

us today is a curate 's egg, good in parts but actually at the heart of

:21:33.:21:37.

it is a false assertion. As has been said by honourable members, the only

:21:38.:21:43.

that this crisis in the Middle East will be solved is by face-to-face

:21:44.:21:46.

negotiations between the leaders of the Palestinians and the state of

:21:47.:21:53.

Israel. And as we all know, this area of the world has had a long

:21:54.:21:58.

history of being occupied by empires down through the ages. The Ottoman

:21:59.:22:04.

Empire ruled the area until such time as the First World War, and

:22:05.:22:08.

then the British mandate came in. The reality is that the West Bank

:22:09.:22:14.

was annexed by Jordan in 1950. So to call this occupied territory is of

:22:15.:22:20.

course to suggest that a country existed, but it has never existed,

:22:21.:22:24.

and that is the real dilemma in this whole problem. I absolutely think

:22:25.:22:32.

that the United nations resolution should not have been supported by

:22:33.:22:35.

the United Kingdom government and it was wrong to do so, it was in the

:22:36.:22:40.

dying days of President Obama's presidency in a deliberate swipe at

:22:41.:22:46.

Israel and I think history will show that was the case. But I

:22:47.:22:50.

congratulate my right honourable friend the Prime Minister for

:22:51.:22:53.

distancing herself from John Kerry's one-sided speech. This is a unique

:22:54.:22:58.

point in history because it is the first time a British government has

:22:59.:23:04.

distanced itself from a serving Secretary of State to our greatest

:23:05.:23:07.

ally in the world. I congratulate the government for not sending

:23:08.:23:11.

individuals to the Paris conference which attempted to internationalise

:23:12.:23:19.

the solution to the problem. And I would ask the Minister on the front

:23:20.:23:24.

bench one particular issue, and that is, what is his view of the Oslo

:23:25.:23:28.

accords and the agreements the Palestinians made with the Israeli

:23:29.:23:33.

government? Because under those agreements it was quite clear that

:23:34.:23:38.

the elements could take place in area C of the West Bank, and that

:23:39.:23:44.

was permitted and agreed by the Palestinians. So to call this

:23:45.:23:51.

illegal is incorrect. Equally, we've heard the United Nations resolution

:23:52.:23:55.

2334 of course would prevent Jewish and Christian 's from celebrating at

:23:56.:24:01.

the Western Wall and the greatest sights of Christianity. Before 1967,

:24:02.:24:09.

the Western Wall was out of bounds to Jewish people and therefore the

:24:10.:24:11.

same thing would happen again were this to be implemented. The Green

:24:12.:24:16.

line was never ever an international line, there have never ever been an

:24:17.:24:21.

international agreement on the exact borders of any state or potential

:24:22.:24:27.

state of Palestine. And I would also just mentioned which has not been

:24:28.:24:31.

mentioned thus far, and that is the plight of the 2.3 million Jewish

:24:32.:24:37.

refugees who were forced out of Arab countries and have had to flee for

:24:38.:24:41.

their lives. Some have gone to Israel, some to the United States

:24:42.:24:44.

and others to other parts of Europe. Those people are never mentioned.

:24:45.:24:51.

When housing developments are put out by the Israeli government to

:24:52.:24:54.

house people who are refugees from Arab states who are Jewish, we

:24:55.:24:58.

should not condemn them, we should congratulate them for providing

:24:59.:25:04.

those facilities. He is making some very personal points, does he agree

:25:05.:25:08.

that the whole point of this debate is that concessions need to be made

:25:09.:25:12.

on both sides and it would be people Ellie unfortunate if people got the

:25:13.:25:16.

perception that everything would be solved if Israel did this or that,

:25:17.:25:19.

it is substantial concessions on both sides that are needed. I thank

:25:20.:25:24.

my honourable friend. Clearly the concern I have and many honourable

:25:25.:25:27.

members have is that the Palestinians are trying to

:25:28.:25:30.

internationalise the issue, taking their case to the United Nations,

:25:31.:25:37.

seeking assistance from outside, and not getting the real issue which is

:25:38.:25:44.

face-to-face talks with Israel to resolve the problems are so that we

:25:45.:25:50.

come to a conclusion and a secure state of Palestine. We should always

:25:51.:25:54.

remember that the green line represents an area which will be

:25:55.:25:58.

indefensible from the state of Israel in the case of a war. And

:25:59.:26:06.

would... The honourable member is making a powerful speech and giving

:26:07.:26:12.

a historical analysis that has been somewhat lacking. Would he agree in

:26:13.:26:17.

trying to internationalise the process rather than accepting it has

:26:18.:26:24.

to be face-to-face talks. We missed with the Palestinians into believing

:26:25.:26:28.

that peace can be found for them without them having to make any

:26:29.:26:31.

comment rise whereas the honourable gentleman has just said and many of

:26:32.:26:36.

us agree, comp ice and trust building on both sides is required?

:26:37.:26:41.

I think the honourable lady for the intervention and clearly we have to

:26:42.:26:44.

build trust and experience between all sides. One of the concerns I

:26:45.:26:49.

have, and I had the experience of going to Israel on six occasions, I

:26:50.:26:53.

have also had the opportunity of visiting the West Bank and Jordan

:26:54.:26:59.

with the Palestinian return centre. The reality is that the Jordanians

:27:00.:27:03.

actually did not build trust amongst the Palestinians at the time, they

:27:04.:27:08.

refuse to give them status, refused to give them title to their land.

:27:09.:27:11.

The issue that remains therefore, one of difficulty in resolving those

:27:12.:27:18.

particular land issues. What we have to do is build trust by joint

:27:19.:27:22.

projects, the honourable lady has outlined, by bringing people

:27:23.:27:27.

together so that they negotiate and build trust between the peoples

:27:28.:27:32.

rather than separating them. It is quite clear that the security

:27:33.:27:35.

barrier around Jerusalem, everyone would like to see removed. But it

:27:36.:27:40.

can only be removed, for example, when there is trust between the

:27:41.:27:45.

Israelis and Palestinians. And once that is achieved we can all achieve

:27:46.:27:50.

that dream a two state solution with proper viable borders, proper

:27:51.:27:59.

security for both states. Thank you. It is extremely important that we

:28:00.:28:04.

recognise and reaffirm the importance of two states, Israel and

:28:05.:28:10.

Palestine in resolving this tragic conflict between two peoples both

:28:11.:28:14.

legitimately seeking self-determination. And together

:28:15.:28:19.

with that must be a very clear understanding from the Palestinians

:28:20.:28:24.

that Israel, has a majority Jewish state, is there to stay as part of

:28:25.:28:31.

the Middle East. It is not, as they too often suggest, an imposition

:28:32.:28:36.

from outside the area. The origins of the settlement which I do not

:28:37.:28:44.

support are often not known about or misunderstood. In 1967, Israel

:28:45.:28:50.

survived a defensive war and found it was then ruling Gaza, previously

:28:51.:28:56.

under the control of digit, and the West Bank, previously under control

:28:57.:29:01.

of Jordan. There were strong government in Israel at the time to

:29:02.:29:08.

trade that land for peace, for recognition. And it is tragic that

:29:09.:29:14.

the Arab league cartoon conference held in 1967 stridently declared to

:29:15.:29:21.

Israel, no recognition, no peace, no negotiation. And that gave the green

:29:22.:29:30.

light to the movement that followed. It is a really important point she

:29:31.:29:33.

is making and she is showing why comparisons between Israel and

:29:34.:29:38.

Russia are utterly fatuous. Because what happened in 1967 is that Israel

:29:39.:29:42.

was invaded, Israel managed to deal with that invasion and that's when

:29:43.:29:46.

the West Bank and Gaza came under Israel's control and that has been

:29:47.:29:50.

the issue that both sides ought to be sitting down and trying to

:29:51.:29:55.

resolve. I agree with the comments of my honourable friend. Settlements

:29:56.:30:02.

are the problem, but they are not the only problem and they are most

:30:03.:30:06.

certainly not the only barrier to peace. In Sinai in 1979 in an

:30:07.:30:11.

agreement with Egypt which survives to this day, Israel withdrew not

:30:12.:30:17.

just from Sinai but also from its settlements there. In Gaza in 2005,

:30:18.:30:29.

Israel unilaterally withdrew 8000 settlers and soldiers from Gaza,

:30:30.:30:34.

demolishing its settlements and tragically that has not led to

:30:35.:30:41.

peace. In every attempt to make peace with Palestinians and others,

:30:42.:30:46.

a solution has been found to settlements, whether to do with land

:30:47.:30:51.

swaps or settlements becoming part of the Palestinian state.

:30:52.:31:04.

The key issue about settlements on the West Bank is

:31:05.:31:14.

But the key issues changing the physical barrier, rather than the

:31:15.:31:21.

policy barrier. And the scale of the challenge on the West Bank, it is

:31:22.:31:26.

not just 8000 settlements, it is 400000 and therefore the vast

:31:27.:31:29.

political investment and it is difficult for Israel to deliver it

:31:30.:31:33.

and becomes more difficult every day as the settler interest becomes

:31:34.:31:40.

greater. I agree that the settlement policy is certainly not helpful, it

:31:41.:31:44.

has developed because of the intransigence of the Palestinians

:31:45.:31:46.

and failure to reach an agreement until now. While I except that

:31:47.:31:54.

settlements are a problem, they are not an insoluble problem. And they

:31:55.:31:56.

are most certainly not the only problem. Can I comment I think is a

:31:57.:32:05.

critical problem and a critical barrier to resolving the situation,

:32:06.:32:12.

and Alison Simon. And that is deliberate incitement that comes

:32:13.:32:16.

from the Palestinian Authority, from Hamas, and of course, that itself is

:32:17.:32:20.

explicitly anti-Semitic and talks about people ruling the world, and

:32:21.:32:36.

statements, that they will kill every Jew around the bush. And I

:32:37.:32:43.

draw the honourable member 's attention to the power seeing

:32:44.:32:47.

campaign of incitement to violence and if we look simpler what has

:32:48.:32:51.

happened in the 12 months after October 2015 had not finished yet.

:32:52.:33:01.

On terrorism basis, and 69 stabbings and shootings, 54 car ramming is, 46

:33:02.:33:06.

Israeli civilians killed and 650 injured. That is on the streets of

:33:07.:33:12.

this rail. Terrorism, individuals sometimes young, sometimes as young

:33:13.:33:21.

as 12 and 13, fired up with hatred, not included, pulling a 30 rod boy

:33:22.:33:27.

off his bike and stabbing him, but another teenage boy. Dad since

:33:28.:33:31.

Teichmann tanned that comes from the creation of hatred. And there are

:33:32.:33:33.

also by the Palestinian authorities.

:33:34.:33:41.

Namely schools after terrorists. For example, after one, who was the

:33:42.:33:47.

organiser of the 1978 coastal Rd massacre. Attacking a school bus

:33:48.:33:53.

where 37 people were killed including 12 children. That is just

:33:54.:34:00.

one example, of the Palestinian Authority, not Hamas, the

:34:01.:34:04.

Palestinian Authority honouring terrorists. Calling them martyrs and

:34:05.:34:12.

encouraging others to do the same. Or I could talk about the case of

:34:13.:34:17.

Daphne Maier, who was murdered in her home. 30 rod Noah was stabbed

:34:18.:34:22.

and critically injured, when he was riding his bike in the north of

:34:23.:34:27.

Jerusalem. Three other people who were killed as they rode on a bus,

:34:28.:34:32.

in southern Jerusalem. And victims, of what President Abbasi himself

:34:33.:34:37.

actually called, a peaceful uprising. If that does not make the

:34:38.:34:45.

point enough. I remind honourable member is that just last month,

:34:46.:34:52.

effect on board the martyrdom of something, the first Palestinian

:34:53.:34:58.

female suicide bomber. Who use the cover as a volunteer of the Red

:34:59.:35:05.

Crescent, to enter, Israel and she used an explosive belt so that her

:35:06.:35:12.

her pure body would explodes into pieces in her Zionists faces. She

:35:13.:35:17.

did indeed kill an Israeli and murdered over a hundred other

:35:18.:35:20.

people. I'm sorry that time is running out, these acts are

:35:21.:35:26.

horrendous, and I would ask every candle honourable members to

:35:27.:35:31.

consider the role of incitement and the stirring up of hatred, creating

:35:32.:35:36.

a massive barrier to peace. The solution to all of this is for both

:35:37.:35:41.

peoples Israelis and Palestinians to sit together in direct talks and

:35:42.:35:47.

agree a compromise, he negotiated agreement so that there is a secure

:35:48.:35:53.

Israel and a secure Palestine, a homeland for Israelis, for dues and

:35:54.:36:01.

for Palestinians. It is a great pleasure to follow the ladies for

:36:02.:36:06.

Liverpool Riverside, she clearly knows a huge amount about this

:36:07.:36:09.

subject and I believe that she's right about the level of disgusting

:36:10.:36:14.

incitement that takes place from the Palestinian side. On the other side

:36:15.:36:17.

however I would have to say that some of the language and behaviour

:36:18.:36:22.

of the extremist Jewish settlers, particularly in places like Hebron

:36:23.:36:25.

is equally vile, and were never going to find a resolution to use

:36:26.:36:28.

conflict unless we deal with both sides of the argument. Madam Deputy

:36:29.:36:36.

Speaker, I have been to Israel, West Bank and Gaza several times. I have

:36:37.:36:40.

had the peculiar privilege standing in Gaza, looking out over to Israel

:36:41.:36:43.

and standing in this role looking out over to Gaza. My late uncle

:36:44.:36:49.

served, with British forces, in mandate Palestine after the end of

:36:50.:36:54.

the Second World War. And the Northamptonshire Regiment was

:36:55.:36:57.

instrumental in liberating Palestine, now Israel, from the

:36:58.:37:00.

Ottoman Empire, in the First World War. There were three huge battles

:37:01.:37:07.

in Gaza, six men from the town of Bessbrook in my constituency were

:37:08.:37:11.

all killed on the same day, in the First World War, in the third Battle

:37:12.:37:16.

of Gaza. I had a privilege of laying a wreath on their behalf in the

:37:17.:37:19.

Commonwealth War Graves Cemetery in the middle of Gaza city. I thank the

:37:20.:37:27.

honourable member, does the honourable member agree with me that

:37:28.:37:30.

it is extraordinary that during all of the conflicts and intifada is,

:37:31.:37:34.

that the British cemeteries in Gaza had been well maintained? Yes and

:37:35.:37:41.

the elderly gentleman who maintains the Commonwealth War Graves was

:37:42.:37:44.

awarded the MBE which he was extraordinarily proud of. I believe

:37:45.:37:46.

he has been looking after the grateful something like 60 years. My

:37:47.:37:51.

point in saying that is that Britain's connection with this

:37:52.:37:53.

region goes back an awfully long way. And for the best part of 30

:37:54.:37:58.

years after the First World War, we did our best, to try to come to a

:37:59.:38:03.

reconciled solution between Arabs and dues. As a nation, we failed and

:38:04.:38:10.

that is why we pulled out in 1948. We're not going to solve a problem

:38:11.:38:14.

of Israel and the Palestinians this afternoon. What we are being asked

:38:15.:38:19.

to do is to agree or to oppose a motion on Israeli settlements. Yes

:38:20.:38:23.

it is not the only issue, but it is the only issue on the order paper

:38:24.:38:29.

before us this afternoon. And I support Her Majesty 's government 's

:38:30.:38:36.

opposition, to Israeli settlements. I wonder if he agrees that it would

:38:37.:38:41.

be helpful if the British government made it clear, that British folks

:38:42.:38:47.

should not be trading with those illegal settlements? I certainly

:38:48.:38:49.

agree that Her Majesty 's government sand her minister will address this

:38:50.:38:54.

to the very pertinent question asked by my right honourable friend the

:38:55.:38:58.

member for new Forest. What more is her mashed is government going to

:38:59.:39:02.

do, to let the Israeli government know that we are actually opposed to

:39:03.:39:10.

settlements. And we mean it. What more are we going to do than just

:39:11.:39:14.

shout on the touchline. What evidence is there that sanctions and

:39:15.:39:18.

boycotts that right people further apart is going to achieve anything

:39:19.:39:23.

at all? Surely what we should be arguing for is trade and investment?

:39:24.:39:28.

Personally I'm not in favour of boycotts whatever the issue is,

:39:29.:39:32.

although investment but I'm in favour of Her Majesty 's government

:39:33.:39:37.

having a robust method of action against the Israeli government to

:39:38.:39:41.

make sure that they are clear what our policy is. I voted for the

:39:42.:39:44.

recognition Palestine, and I would do that every day of the week. I am

:39:45.:39:50.

a friend of Israel, I think Israel is a fantastic country, it has

:39:51.:39:54.

brought many benefits to the world, we heard about saving child's heart,

:39:55.:40:07.

the work that Israeli surgeons are doing to help honourable children

:40:08.:40:09.

who come from all nations including Muslim nations from around the

:40:10.:40:11.

world, Israel is a leader in the high-tech industry, in medicine.

:40:12.:40:13.

Many NHS medicines come from Israel and it is a key ally for us in a

:40:14.:40:17.

very rough and dangerous part of the world. But our friend and ally

:40:18.:40:21.

Israel finds itself now in the 50th year of a military occupation of two

:40:22.:40:28.

and a half million people. And speaking as a candid friend, surely

:40:29.:40:32.

it is our duty to say to Israel, you cannot go on like this. And

:40:33.:40:40.

honourable ladies and gentlemen who has spoken this afternoon in favour

:40:41.:40:43.

of international talks and in favour of bilateral talks, I don't mind

:40:44.:40:47.

particularly what the talks are so long as they start talking to each

:40:48.:40:52.

other. Clearly, ultimately we have to end up with bilateral talks. But

:40:53.:40:57.

it is wrong to say that international talks is a diversion,

:40:58.:41:01.

which the State of Israel is established as a result of

:41:02.:41:04.

international action through the United Nations. So I think we have

:41:05.:41:11.

to be realistic, as friends of both the Israelis and the Palestinians,

:41:12.:41:15.

we had to say for goodness sake, how long does this have to go on.

:41:16.:41:20.

Nowhere in the history of the world has there been 50 years of military

:41:21.:41:26.

occupation. And both Israel and Palestine could have a fantastic

:41:27.:41:31.

future, both are very entrepreneurial countries, both have

:41:32.:41:35.

got a lot of get up and go. Both have very civilised and educated

:41:36.:41:39.

peoples and they could be leaders to the world in how two conflicting

:41:40.:41:43.

peoples come together in reconciliation, and develop a

:41:44.:41:49.

wonderful future for themselves. I think Her Majesty 's government, in

:41:50.:41:52.

the hundredth year of the Balfour declaration actually has a bigger

:41:53.:41:55.

role to play in this than it might realise and it should seize this

:41:56.:41:59.

opportunity to knock heads together and say, how can we Britain help

:42:00.:42:06.

kudos our friends to come together. -- help our friends. It would be

:42:07.:42:10.

obvious to the house that every speech so far would be well in

:42:11.:42:14.

excess of four minutes, so now we have two reduce the time limit to

:42:15.:42:25.

three minutes. Thank you for that. I want to put on record my declaration

:42:26.:42:31.

of interest, in the register of members interests. I went to the

:42:32.:42:37.

West Bank last year, it was paid for by factor UK, and organised by

:42:38.:42:42.

travel to Palestine. It is very clear that the settlements are in

:42:43.:42:46.

breach of international law, -- Fatah UK. The international guys, we

:42:47.:42:53.

shouldn't have any argued about that, that the settlements are

:42:54.:42:58.

illegal and work from there. The honourable member for Kettering is

:42:59.:43:01.

actually right, the resolution before us is about the settlements

:43:02.:43:05.

and we should concentrate, on that that is what we are talking about

:43:06.:43:07.

today. I wouldn't say they are the only barriers to peace but they are

:43:08.:43:12.

a barrier. Removing the settlements would not create a peaceful

:43:13.:43:15.

agreement but nevertheless while the settlements are there, you're not

:43:16.:43:20.

going to get a peace agreement. And certainly, while settlements are

:43:21.:43:24.

continuing to be built. Israelis say they want the talks to begin without

:43:25.:43:30.

preconditions. But they don't, they want the preconditions that they can

:43:31.:43:34.

carry on building settlements while negotiations take place, that is

:43:35.:43:37.

fundamental, until the Israelis say they will stop building settlements

:43:38.:43:41.

and then we will negotiate while those settlements are being built,

:43:42.:43:45.

would at least be an important settlement forward. That is an

:43:46.:43:48.

important point to make. The problem of the settlements being a barrier,

:43:49.:43:53.

they actually fragment the land which Palestine will form as a

:43:54.:44:00.

state. They make it possible to four major practical entity, when you

:44:01.:44:02.

have got settlements dotted around it. That is the problem, you can

:44:03.:44:10.

partially deal with it by land swaps and the Palestinian Authority does

:44:11.:44:13.

not explicitly rule out land swaps. But the more settlements that

:44:14.:44:18.

happen, on the ground, the hard and eventual peace agreement will be to

:44:19.:44:22.

formulate. That is the reality. I will give way once. I wonder if he

:44:23.:44:30.

agrees with me, that given that settlements in the West Bank are

:44:31.:44:35.

illegal, there will be no peace unless Israel starts to recognise

:44:36.:44:41.

and adhere to international law. You can't have a peace agreement with

:44:42.:44:44.

one side not recognising international law and that goes

:44:45.:44:48.

without saying. The impact of settlements on the economy of

:44:49.:44:51.

Palestine, also has to be understood. Talking to Palestinian

:44:52.:44:55.

people, who described their journeys to work, a distance of six or seven

:44:56.:45:02.

miles, taking two or three hours, because of the checkpoints which

:45:03.:45:06.

exist, by and large to protect the settlements and Israeli interests,

:45:07.:45:10.

that is the reality of everyday life for Palestinian citizens, and damage

:45:11.:45:15.

to the economy. Talking to the Mayor of Hebron, who explains that their

:45:16.:45:19.

city wants to expand and needs to expand. It can't because the area

:45:20.:45:27.

outside Hebron, is in area C. Which is controlled by the Israelis and

:45:28.:45:31.

the Israelis do not allow the Palestinians to building area C.

:45:32.:45:43.

Go to the checkpoint and see the hatred between young Palestinians

:45:44.:45:49.

held up at gunpoint, strip-searched in the street, and Young Israeli

:45:50.:45:53.

soldiers of the same age, it actually brutalises both sides and

:45:54.:45:57.

so is the seed of hatred for years to come. And look at the racism. I'm

:45:58.:46:05.

sorry, it is racism. When people are treated differently about whether

:46:06.:46:07.

they can build on a piece of land because of their race, whether they

:46:08.:46:11.

can get through a checkpoint easily or have to go to a different

:46:12.:46:16.

checkpoint because of their race, or whether, most fundamentally, they

:46:17.:46:20.

can have access to water, because Israeli settlements have access to

:46:21.:46:23.

water seven days a week in the summer but Palestinians have to put

:46:24.:46:26.

water tanks on their roof because they don't get the same axis. What

:46:27.:46:32.

could be more discreet in a tree? I say to the government, yes, you

:46:33.:46:35.

supported the resolution, what are you going to do it? Tommy Sheppard.

:46:36.:46:43.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the longest-running conflict in

:46:44.:46:47.

the modern era and its solution seems further away than ever, but I

:46:48.:46:51.

think it's very intricate ability is a reason why we should commit

:46:52.:46:58.

ourselves to moving forward. Every time the international community has

:46:59.:47:01.

considered competing claims from this region they have arrived at the

:47:02.:47:05.

same conclusion, and that is two states living side-by-side, one

:47:06.:47:10.

Jewish and character, one Arab in character, in peaceful coexistence

:47:11.:47:15.

is the solution to aim for. That was true 100 years ago, it was true when

:47:16.:47:18.

the fledgling UN decided what to do after the mandate in the late 40s

:47:19.:47:23.

and it was true when the Palestinians and Israelis met in

:47:24.:47:26.

Oslo under international support in the last round of peace talks. There

:47:27.:47:32.

are two fundamental truths for people who believe in that two state

:47:33.:47:36.

solution. The first is that one state exists and one state does not.

:47:37.:47:42.

So trying to create and bring into existence the state of Palestinian

:47:43.:47:45.

is the world's unfinished business and that is something we should

:47:46.:47:49.

support. The second fundamental truth is this, you cannot have a two

:47:50.:47:54.

state solution whilst one state is in military occupation of the lands

:47:55.:47:59.

designated the other. So at some stage the occupation will have to

:48:00.:48:04.

end if there is to be a two state solution. In Oslo it was agreed that

:48:05.:48:09.

the occupied territories, as everybody knows, would be divided

:48:10.:48:14.

into zones, the new Palestinian Authority taking responsibility for

:48:15.:48:18.

urban areas, the Israeli occupying force responsible for 62% of landing

:48:19.:48:24.

area C. But that was envisaged as a transitional arrangement. People

:48:25.:48:28.

thought when we had the Oslo accord that by the end of the decade, by

:48:29.:48:33.

the end of the century, that land and that responsibility which

:48:34.:48:35.

transferred to the Palestinian Authority as it emerged and become a

:48:36.:48:43.

fully fledged Palestinian state. Not only has that not happened, but the

:48:44.:48:46.

actions of the Israeli government since have made it even further away

:48:47.:48:56.

than it was 25 years ago. I wonder if he will agree there is an

:48:57.:49:00.

enormous power imbalance between Israel, a state with the fourth

:49:01.:49:04.

largest and strongest army in the world and Palestine which is not a

:49:05.:49:08.

state and does not have an army. Palestinians have already conceded

:49:09.:49:11.

78% of their land, international pressure is needed now ignoring

:49:12.:49:17.

resolution 2334 is not the way forward. I do agree with that which

:49:18.:49:22.

is why people who talk about face-to-face talks really ought to

:49:23.:49:25.

consider that this is something of a David and Goliath situation, and any

:49:26.:49:30.

conflict where that exists and peace has been achieved it has been with

:49:31.:49:35.

an international framework and that was true with the Good Friday

:49:36.:49:38.

agreement in Northern Ireland as well. So we need to listen to the

:49:39.:49:42.

Palestinians when they appeal for our help and support to try to

:49:43.:49:49.

achieve a resolution. The Oslo agreement, the fact is that the

:49:50.:49:53.

Israeli government of the last 25 years have, in contravention of the

:49:54.:49:58.

fourth Geneva Convention, moved half a million of their own civilian

:49:59.:50:02.

population into an area in which they are in military occupation.

:50:03.:50:06.

That is why people call the settlements illegal. At some stage

:50:07.:50:09.

they will have to be dealt with and yes there will need to be land swaps

:50:10.:50:12.

and yes some of the settlers may wish to choose to be Palestinian

:50:13.:50:16.

citizens and some may wish to choose to take advantage of relocation

:50:17.:50:20.

schemes to go into Israel proper, but it's going to have to be dealt

:50:21.:50:25.

with. And the fact is that every brick that is late, every new

:50:26.:50:29.

apartment built puts a solution further away. This is why this

:50:30.:50:37.

resolution calls upon the Israeli government to review its policy to

:50:38.:50:41.

put a cessation on settlement building so that peace talks can

:50:42.:50:45.

begin. If you want peace talks you have to have a ceasefire. Stopping

:50:46.:50:49.

building settlements would be the equivalent. The first of my point is

:50:50.:50:58.

that we implement the resolution particularly with regard to

:50:59.:51:00.

differentiation of the occupied territories and Israel proper. The

:51:01.:51:12.

second is that... I'm out of time. The honourable gentleman will have

:51:13.:51:15.

to find another way of making his other points. Thank you Madam Deputy

:51:16.:51:25.

Speaker. My support for resolution 2334 which calls for peace,

:51:26.:51:30.

denounces violence in all its forms and crucially condemns the building

:51:31.:51:34.

of illegal settlements by the Israeli government. Although I

:51:35.:51:41.

recognise there are many issues, I will concentrate my remarks on the

:51:42.:51:46.

illegal settlements which are being constructed by the Israeli

:51:47.:51:50.

government and which are clearly obstructing the peace process, a

:51:51.:51:53.

process that I'm sure all members will agree we need to resume

:51:54.:52:02.

urgently. Madam Deputy Speaker, surprisingly one or two members have

:52:03.:52:07.

cast doubt on a very clear position here which is whether or not the

:52:08.:52:11.

settlements are actually illegal. So for the sake of clarity let me stand

:52:12.:52:16.

some authority. Settlements are declared as illegal under

:52:17.:52:21.

international law by numerous UN resolutions, by the Geneva

:52:22.:52:25.

Convention, by the International Court of Justice, the US State

:52:26.:52:28.

Department, the Royal statute, article two of the UN Charter, by

:52:29.:52:33.

the Hague regulations and indeed, most importantly, by this house and

:52:34.:52:37.

ministers from all parties. There illegality was also reaffirmed by

:52:38.:52:44.

the current resolution 2334 which let us run and also faced no

:52:45.:52:48.

opposition at the vote. I could go on and cite other examples but I am

:52:49.:52:54.

limited with time. However we look at this, what cannot be contended is

:52:55.:52:59.

that the settlements are illegal. The second point is the ongoing

:53:00.:53:06.

construction of illegal settlements where that obstructs the peace

:53:07.:53:11.

process. The two state solution is the only viable option for the

:53:12.:53:15.

region but if we continue to see Palestinian land is appear under

:53:16.:53:20.

illegal settlements the two state solution will be dead and the hopes

:53:21.:53:24.

for Palestinians and Israelis alike will be dead with it. The solution,

:53:25.:53:30.

Madam Deputy Speaker, is a two state solution, not a one and a bit state

:53:31.:53:35.

solution. And Palestinians will not negotiate, this is not what they

:53:36.:53:41.

were promised under UN agreements, nor will they negotiate a deal of

:53:42.:53:45.

who gets the land while at the same time Israel is taking chunks after

:53:46.:53:53.

chunk of the very same land away. Madam Deputy Speaker, time not

:53:54.:53:56.

permitting, what is paramount for the region and its peace is peace

:53:57.:54:00.

between Israel and Palestine. What I want to see as I hope do we all, but

:54:01.:54:03.

illegal settlements have to stop before we can reach that point or

:54:04.:54:08.

even get back to the path to it. So can I ask the Minister to condemn

:54:09.:54:14.

the further illegal settlements announced since resolution 2334 and

:54:15.:54:18.

could he tell me what concrete steps this covenant is doing to move

:54:19.:54:27.

forward? Thank you. Like many in this house who are determined to see

:54:28.:54:30.

a peaceful resolution in the Middle East, I welcome this timely debate

:54:31.:54:34.

to reaffirm our support for lasting peace and to commend the government

:54:35.:54:39.

on signing resolution 2334 last year. Like the Palestinians have

:54:40.:54:46.

done since 1993I also recognise Israel's existence. However, these

:54:47.:54:53.

last two weeks have seen this vision placed in further risk by acts of

:54:54.:54:57.

the Israeli government, a democracy that does not live up to the values

:54:58.:55:00.

it espouses. The passing of a regulation Bill was described as the

:55:01.:55:07.

robbery law flies in the face of this resolution. The UN resolution

:55:08.:55:15.

could not set out more clearly the international view of settlements

:55:16.:55:17.

and settlement expansion in occupied Palestine. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:55:18.:55:23.

as a country have been very clear that settlements are an obstacle to

:55:24.:55:27.

peace. They have no legality and are against international law. We have

:55:28.:55:33.

tolerated Israel changing physical reality on the ground, we must never

:55:34.:55:37.

tolerate any attempt to change legal positions. We have committed

:55:38.:55:43.

ourselves to a number of essential positions that we call on both sides

:55:44.:55:47.

to act on the basis of international law. We reiterate the position that

:55:48.:55:53.

settlements are a flagrant dilation of international law and an obstacle

:55:54.:55:57.

to peace, and we accept no change to the 1957 border that is not agreed

:55:58.:56:02.

by both sides and will do everything to encourage peace. By passing a

:56:03.:56:09.

regulation Bill that flies in the face of everything we declared at

:56:10.:56:13.

the UN, for a government to legislate in a land not under their

:56:14.:56:17.

rule of their parliament, where people of that land have no

:56:18.:56:22.

representation is a travesty. It is a signal that the UN and

:56:23.:56:28.

international efforts have no impact on the current government. Many have

:56:29.:56:32.

spoken in condemnation of this law which the UN special envoy to the

:56:33.:56:36.

Middle East described as crossing a thick red light, and by a former

:56:37.:56:39.

Israel the Minister as evil and dangerous, against the basic

:56:40.:56:42.

principles of democracy and Israeli law. Even the Attorney General will

:56:43.:56:48.

likely argue against it. Finally, whilst icon graduate the honourable

:56:49.:56:54.

member for New Forest West for declaring this debate, I support the

:56:55.:56:58.

motion put forward. It is high time that we move beyond combination and

:56:59.:57:02.

hollow words of support. We must support movements towards

:57:03.:57:08.

accountability and demonstrate commitment to the rule of law. Only

:57:09.:57:13.

then can we shake the different future for these children and

:57:14.:57:18.

generations to come. Celebrating at the moment is disheartening, that is

:57:19.:57:22.

celebrating Israel because it was legally asked to remove occupants

:57:23.:57:28.

from the order, that was not to be celebrated. Andy Slaughter. May I

:57:29.:57:38.

refer, I visited the West Bank last year, I disagree with members who

:57:39.:57:45.

have criticised the motion today because it does not deal with

:57:46.:57:52.

settlements. I do believe that settlements are not the only issue

:57:53.:57:55.

but they are the most important issue. It is a relatively anodyne

:57:56.:58:01.

motion in that sense which I hope everybody can support. Firstly, the

:58:02.:58:07.

tragedy of Palestine is the occupation. The length of the

:58:08.:58:16.

occupation. And the settlements are the embodiment of occupation. And

:58:17.:58:20.

everything else which is run the occupied territories flows from the

:58:21.:58:27.

settlements. So the barrier, 85% of which is in occupied territory and

:58:28.:58:30.

is there to protect the settlements and it has been said settlements

:58:31.:58:35.

only occupy 1.5% of the land, they control 42.7% of the land. 60% of

:58:36.:58:43.

the land is land that Palestinians themselves are not allowed to build,

:58:44.:58:46.

the checkpoints, the detention without trial, the appalling settler

:58:47.:58:53.

violence, there are more attacks by settlers on Palestinians than there

:58:54.:58:55.

are by Palestinians on settlers in the West Bank. It has been described

:58:56.:59:03.

as petty apartheid, separate legal systems and military law for

:59:04.:59:09.

Palestinians controlled by the defence Minister, a settler himself,

:59:10.:59:17.

somebody who is on record as having said that Palestinian citizens of

:59:18.:59:22.

Israel should have their heads chopped off, that is the person in

:59:23.:59:27.

charge of the West Bank. We are at a crucial point here. 6000 new settler

:59:28.:59:34.

units declared since Donald Trump went into the White House and as

:59:35.:59:37.

we've heard the burglary law as it was described, 4000 illegal outposts

:59:38.:59:46.

now legitimised. So in the very short time I have, let me make one

:59:47.:59:50.

point if I may, we know that despite the alternative facts we have heard

:59:51.:59:53.

this afternoon, we know settlements are illegal. What is the government

:59:54.:59:58.

going to do about the settlements? Why can we not stop trading with

:59:59.:00:04.

settlements if they are illegal? Let's not confuse that with that

:00:05.:00:09.

issue. Why can we not insured there are clearer guidelines for business

:00:10.:00:12.

to stop them doing that? Why can we not prevent a transaction as was

:00:13.:00:16.

done with Crimea and why can we not have a database on all of those

:00:17.:00:22.

issues? I would be grateful for specific answers from the Minister

:00:23.:00:26.

today. Of course we are looking for condemnation of this, but we are

:00:27.:00:29.

also looking for action from the British government. I apologise,

:00:30.:00:42.

when I spoke I permitted touring attention to my entry in the

:00:43.:00:46.

register of interests concerning a recent trip to Israel, I would like

:00:47.:00:50.

to correct that I also, went with the delegation

:00:51.:01:04.

last year to is throne and Palestine. I thank the honourable

:01:05.:01:13.

gentleman. Any other points? I also wish to draw attention to the

:01:14.:01:18.

register of interests, I went on a trip to Israel and the West Bank

:01:19.:01:29.

last year as a guest of Fatah UK. Is it required Madam Deputy Speaker if

:01:30.:01:33.

you have visited Israel or Palestine, in the last year and have

:01:34.:01:36.

registered that in the Registry, is it required that we make that

:01:37.:01:45.

declaration here? It is a matter for individual members as to how and in

:01:46.:01:51.

what manner they declare matters where they may have personally

:01:52.:01:57.

benefited, financially or otherwise from an outside organisation, who

:01:58.:01:59.

might have an interest in the current debate. But it is very much

:02:00.:02:06.

a matter for individual members as to whether they wish to make these

:02:07.:02:10.

points or not. Of course the rules are very strict as to what is the

:02:11.:02:14.

register of members interests as the honourable lady has said. Hearing

:02:15.:02:23.

your guidance, I would declare that I have is to Israel and Palestine on

:02:24.:02:28.

a number of occasions, over the last year. All of which have been

:02:29.:02:32.

supported and financed by the Labour friends of Israel, from which I have

:02:33.:02:37.

made no personal gain whatsoever. I thank the old lady. -- the

:02:38.:02:46.

honourable lady. Can I draw your attention to my register of members

:02:47.:02:50.

interests, regarding visiting the West Bank last year, co-organised by

:02:51.:02:56.

the Council for British understanding and paid for by a

:02:57.:03:04.

foundation. Is there anybody else who would like to register their

:03:05.:03:09.

travel experiences? Having heard what you said, I didn't realise we

:03:10.:03:12.

were required to do this, I did say my speech that I have been doosra

:03:13.:03:16.

recently, given everybody else is this. I I should draw attention, I

:03:17.:03:24.

visited Israel recently, met politicians in Israel and Palestine,

:03:25.:03:30.

that trip was funded by Labour friends of Israel stop by the

:03:31.:03:33.

honourable gentleman did mention that, I remember him saying it. We

:03:34.:03:42.

have taken up and in tyre speech time, it is right that honourable

:03:43.:03:45.

member should behave honourably in these matters. Mark Kendrick. Madam

:03:46.:03:51.

Deputy Speaker, as has become the fashion, I would like to declare my

:03:52.:03:55.

visits to Palestine and Israel over the last 15 years financed by

:03:56.:04:01.

various organisations. Madam Deputy Speaker it is clear that this debate

:04:02.:04:05.

is quite narrow in terms of focus but very important nevertheless,

:04:06.:04:10.

that is that it is on the idea settlements. The number of

:04:11.:04:15.

honourable gentleman have tried to trivialise settlements. But while it

:04:16.:04:19.

may not be the most important issue they are a very important issue

:04:20.:04:24.

indeed. We only need to draw ourselves, our attention, two

:04:25.:04:28.

resolutions 242 and 338, from the United Nations, dated 67 and 73. The

:04:29.:04:36.

key phrases, basically the withdrawal of Israeli Armed Forces

:04:37.:04:39.

from territories occupied in the recent conflict. And clearly, I

:04:40.:04:44.

would like to make some progress if you don't mind. So clearly, by

:04:45.:04:52.

making reference, two Israeli Armed Forces, it is clear that they will

:04:53.:04:56.

not be withdrawn as long as settlements exist, in the West Bank.

:04:57.:05:00.

So it goes without saying that settlements in body, as a crucial

:05:01.:05:05.

part of the problem in this respect. When I first visited Palestine,

:05:06.:05:12.

something like 14 or 15 years ago, there was something like 15,000

:05:13.:05:16.

settlers in the West Bank. When I last visited, that increase to about

:05:17.:05:20.

half a million. And I understand the latest figures are about 600,000. So

:05:21.:05:25.

we can see that the situation is changing on the ground extremely

:05:26.:05:29.

quickly. And because it is changing extremely quickly on the ground,

:05:30.:05:34.

then the longer that this dispute and conflict continues. And clearly

:05:35.:05:37.

the situation on the ground will get to the point, where it will be a two

:05:38.:05:44.

state solution, will be out of reach, because obviously, so much

:05:45.:05:47.

land will have been taken, there will be very little land left great

:05:48.:05:51.

contiguous state and I would hope that this government would

:05:52.:05:55.

recognise. Settlements, were the main focus as we know of resolutions

:05:56.:06:02.

to 334, passed on December the 23rd. And we also know that the policy of

:06:03.:06:08.

the US, the UN, and UK Government repeated endlessly by ministers in

:06:09.:06:13.

this house, is settlements are illegal, under international law,

:06:14.:06:18.

and an obstacle to peace. How anybody can say, that settlements

:06:19.:06:21.

are not part and parcel of the solution to this problem, I do not

:06:22.:06:26.

know. As for no preconditions before there are talks, clearly, they're

:06:27.:06:32.

right UN resolutions, those UN resolutions are not preconditions,

:06:33.:06:36.

those UN resolutions referred to international law. And the

:06:37.:06:39.

discussions and direct talks would take place on that basis. I urge the

:06:40.:06:44.

government to recognise Palestine and apply pressure where it can to

:06:45.:06:47.

the United States and elsewhere to see that a two state solution is

:06:48.:06:55.

still viable. Thank you Mr Speaker, I thought it was further down there,

:06:56.:07:02.

my apologies. As I have reflected, settlements are actually a legal

:07:03.:07:04.

international law and they are a physical barrier to the peace

:07:05.:07:12.

process. Through the settlement, Palestinians Rashid and I'd access

:07:13.:07:19.

to 50% of the land, and many others, I have visited Palestine. For the

:07:20.:07:24.

register of men's interests. I have seen a systemic development in our

:07:25.:07:28.

post and settlements, which are intended to control the Palestinians

:07:29.:07:32.

and at worst it is a process for complete annexation of the West

:07:33.:07:37.

Bank. The network settlements, outposts and checkpoints, associated

:07:38.:07:41.

security buffer zones, patrol by the IDF means that Israel can control

:07:42.:07:45.

access to natural resources including Grace and grounds, water

:07:46.:07:53.

supplies and movement of animals. The settlement, is settled up nice

:07:54.:07:58.

and bright at the top of the hill which is possible due to the water

:07:59.:08:02.

supplies. Meanwhile, there is a Bedouin village, connected. The

:08:03.:08:09.

water supply for the settlement runs through the Bedouin village. They

:08:10.:08:12.

have not had access to the water supplies and the school in the

:08:13.:08:16.

village is part funded, but it has got a demolition order. That is the

:08:17.:08:22.

intimidation by Israel. Forced movements of people is illegal,

:08:23.:08:25.

sometimes it gets dressed up as moving people for a better

:08:26.:08:29.

lifestyle. We have seen examples of that in history and it is a false

:08:30.:08:34.

premise, we have seen by Native Americans and Scottish highlanders.

:08:35.:08:42.

That is is getting done two people and not for people. Also others that

:08:43.:08:47.

had been subjected demolitions, I was able to see the water system

:08:48.:08:53.

ruined by debris, including cardboard forced into it. I saw

:08:54.:08:59.

caves and inhabits, forced into it. And the subsistence crops, and no

:09:00.:09:04.

longer can access it. The water for the animals and spending 30% of

:09:05.:09:09.

their income on water that is they used to access for free. I mention

:09:10.:09:13.

the school and the demolition order, handing it over. As you know, there

:09:14.:09:18.

is the impunity in terms of demolition because international

:09:19.:09:22.

committee has not acted, the UK has never asked for redress for

:09:23.:09:27.

demolitions, it is time that it changed, 180 structures have been

:09:28.:09:30.

part funded for EU funding which the UK contributes to, and there has

:09:31.:09:36.

been owed redress. And the connection yesterday, I got a letter

:09:37.:09:41.

that said a ?5 million project in Hebron, suffered demolitions I want

:09:42.:09:44.

to ask the Minister, when it asked that ?5 million back and when we get

:09:45.:09:47.

to take action against on demolition. -- against Israel. Thank

:09:48.:09:58.

you Mr Deputy Speaker, I thank the members, and hand ported this is.

:09:59.:10:02.

These are fateful times and as we move into a centenary year in the

:10:03.:10:07.

Balfour declaration, it is chilling to see the president of the United

:10:08.:10:10.

States openly promote those with hideous anti-Semitic views or in

:10:11.:10:13.

France to watch the rise of a presidential candidate whose party

:10:14.:10:17.

has for decades traded in the despicable sewers of anti-Jewish

:10:18.:10:20.

sentiment. This makes it all the more important that we in Britain

:10:21.:10:25.

uphold our principles and speak out with a clear voice when our allies

:10:26.:10:29.

threaten them. So the departure from our stead fast commitment to a

:10:30.:10:32.

peaceful two state solution in recent months, has sent dangerous

:10:33.:10:38.

signals to the rest of the world. As the UN human rights Council found,

:10:39.:10:42.

while fenced areas of settlement cover only 3% of the West Bank, in

:10:43.:10:48.

reality 43% of the territory is allocated to local and regional

:10:49.:10:51.

settlement councils, if that control is legalised, legitimised and

:10:52.:10:56.

expanded, it represents one of the most grievous blows to the prospects

:10:57.:11:02.

for peace for decades. It was therefore frankly astonishing, when

:11:03.:11:05.

our Prime Minister chose to use a balanced speech by the outgoing US

:11:06.:11:10.

Secretary of State, to signal a divergence with the position of our

:11:11.:11:15.

closest ally. Senator Kerry spoke of a government more committed to

:11:16.:11:19.

settlements that ever before. And the systematic consolidation of

:11:20.:11:24.

control, over the West Bank, that is leading towards the inevitability of

:11:25.:11:28.

one state, and the near extinction of the prospects for peace. The

:11:29.:11:32.

outgoing Obama administration reacted with a understandable shock,

:11:33.:11:37.

to the criticism that stems not from the Foreign Office but from the

:11:38.:11:40.

Prime Minister herself. They said we are surprised by the UK Prime

:11:41.:11:45.

Minister's office statement given that Secretary Ceri's remarks were

:11:46.:11:49.

in line with UK's: standing policy and its vote at the United Nations.

:11:50.:11:53.

This criticism and the warm embrace of a new president in the US

:11:54.:11:58.

determined to support existing settlements, I have no doubt

:11:59.:12:02.

emboldened the Israeli government, which has announced for the first

:12:03.:12:06.

time in decades, thousands of new buildings in the occupied

:12:07.:12:09.

territories. Our absence from The European Council in Malta when the

:12:10.:12:13.

decision was taken to postpone a scheduled summit in late February

:12:14.:12:16.

with a Prime Minister of Israel underscored our diminishing

:12:17.:12:20.

influence. I can ready have been a time in the postwar world, when our

:12:21.:12:24.

moral voice has been quite so weak. So I urge the government today, not

:12:25.:12:30.

to jettison our historic role and credibility as a partner to peace

:12:31.:12:33.

for the sake of a quick trade deal, I urge the Minister to do what the

:12:34.:12:36.

Prime Minister could not, and condemned the land regularisation

:12:37.:12:42.

hack that seeks to legitimise the illegitimate and will do untold

:12:43.:12:49.

damage in the long search for peace. Mr Speaker I'm grateful to be called

:12:50.:12:53.

and to speak and I'm grateful to follow the Honourable Lady, the

:12:54.:12:56.

member for New Forest West, made most of the points that needed to be

:12:57.:13:00.

made on the settlements, and those who have followed have added

:13:01.:13:04.

significantly from both perspectives, on this conflict. I

:13:05.:13:08.

have had nearly a hundred e-mails from constituents asking me to

:13:09.:13:12.

support this event, so on the half of them I would like to send my

:13:13.:13:14.

thanks to the backbench business committee for affording the

:13:15.:13:18.

opportunity, and for the sponsors for securing this debate. Like other

:13:19.:13:23.

colleagues who have contributed, we all want to see eight state

:13:24.:13:27.

solution, but that seems more a mote than ever. I do look for to

:13:28.:13:32.

listening to the minister, not only outlining or rather repeating the

:13:33.:13:36.

UK's government support for peace, but more than that, explaining how

:13:37.:13:41.

it intends to contribute, to the task of helping to bring the two

:13:42.:13:45.

sides together. As the Honourable gentleman, from North Antrim and

:13:46.:13:49.

others have said, face-to-face talks have got to be the only way forward.

:13:50.:13:54.

Settlement building by the Israeli governor does seem to be totally

:13:55.:13:58.

contrary to any peace process, and is outlined with a briefing

:13:59.:14:02.

circulated, by the all-party group for Britain and Palestine chaired by

:14:03.:14:06.

my honourable friend from Birmingham Northfield, it says the influx of

:14:07.:14:11.

settlers into the West Bank and East Jerusalem significantly increases

:14:12.:14:14.

tensions in the region which includes violence, perpetrated by

:14:15.:14:17.

and against settlers, freedom of movement restrictions, detention or

:14:18.:14:22.

prosecution of Palestinian adults and children in military courts.

:14:23.:14:28.

House demolitions, age appropriation, restrictions on

:14:29.:14:30.

agriculture and the economic activity. All matters, in this

:14:31.:14:36.

debate. These decisions by the Israeli government, not only do not

:14:37.:14:39.

help the desperate situation there, but I do believe make it worse.

:14:40.:14:45.

However I do recognise, the provocation and it is important to

:14:46.:14:48.

emphasise that provocation is not one-sided. As has been said, 2017 is

:14:49.:14:55.

a very significant year historically, anniversaries of Bal

:14:56.:15:00.

four, and other events. Is it too much to hope that history will come

:15:01.:15:04.

to bear down on those involved to restart talks. I don't overestimate

:15:05.:15:10.

our role, but the UK is a significant player both historically

:15:11.:15:15.

and diplomatically, as eloquently articulated by the Honourable

:15:16.:15:18.

gentleman from Kettering. I look forward to the Minister and our

:15:19.:15:23.

colleague, outlining how best UK will play its part. In conclusion,

:15:24.:15:30.

we all want Tusi Pisi. But as many have said, it seems far, far-away.

:15:31.:15:35.

And in my view, the settlement building is not helping.

:15:36.:15:40.

at a time when we have seen rising anti-Semitism in Europe and rising

:15:41.:15:46.

hate crime post Brexit even in this country, this debate should not be

:15:47.:15:50.

an excuse for Israel bashing or demonising all Palestinians as

:15:51.:15:58.

terrorists. Israelis are in a small country surrounded by hostile

:15:59.:16:01.

neighbours, its people should live free from fear of rocket attacks in

:16:02.:16:06.

peace and security. Crucially, as we said to PMQs yesterday, as part of a

:16:07.:16:10.

two state solution alongside a viable Palestinian state. We are

:16:11.:16:16.

talking specifically today about settlements and even since I spotted

:16:17.:16:19.

the title of this debate, the issue seems to be settlements popping up

:16:20.:16:23.

everywhere. We had 400,000 dwellers at the time of the recognition

:16:24.:16:29.

debate. Even on homeland, the US still on Sunday, there was a

:16:30.:16:31.

storyline where Saul went to visit his sister he grew up alongside in

:16:32.:16:37.

America, she is now living in a West Bank settlement and he says to her,

:16:38.:16:41.

how can you live knowing that you're very presence here makes peace less

:16:42.:16:46.

possible? Mr Speaker, my interest in speaking in this debate was spurred

:16:47.:16:51.

by the fact that I was on a cross-party delegation with people

:16:52.:16:54.

on both sides who are here today to the holy land last month to see for

:16:55.:17:00.

myself, I wanted to share some of the observations. While we were

:17:01.:17:02.

there we went to the Connecticut. We met with Israeli think tank 's,

:17:03.:17:13.

we met with Palestinians including Christians, this is not just a

:17:14.:17:16.

Moslem Jewish issue. Some had lived elsewhere. One came from Argentina

:17:17.:17:24.

to meet us. Some of them had lived in Salford, one in America, they all

:17:25.:17:29.

moved, these people came back in the late 90s thinking peace was around

:17:30.:17:33.

the corner, and now it feels to them that there has been stalemate since

:17:34.:17:38.

those Oslo accords. We went to places like Hebron, places I have

:17:39.:17:42.

known about as long as I can remember, a little town of

:17:43.:17:45.

Bethlehem, whenever I hear that him I will not be able to get out of my

:17:46.:17:49.

mind the separation barrier with the Banksy graffiti on it. William

:17:50.:17:55.

Blake's Jerusalem. We saw the armed guards there, it is a very

:17:56.:17:59.

militarised place. Those are images I will never be able to see. I was

:18:00.:18:09.

getting e-mails from constituents who were worried about the UN 2334

:18:10.:18:16.

delegitimising Israel but I was also getting them from constituents angry

:18:17.:18:19.

at the destruction of two Bedouin villages. And we spoke, and this was

:18:20.:18:27.

happening just down the road. It was an eye opening experience like

:18:28.:18:32.

nothing I had seen before. While we were there, there were calls to

:18:33.:18:35.

pardon an Israeli soldier who shot and injured Palestinian teenager in

:18:36.:18:41.

the head. When we got back we saw on the news... Now reached her time,

:18:42.:18:49.

I'm afraid to say. The honourable lady may have other opportunities.

:18:50.:18:54.

I'm sorry but that is the situation. The honourable lady is not required

:18:55.:18:59.

to stand, I know she was interested in speaking from a sedentary

:19:00.:19:04.

position? I am grateful, thank you. According to the UN a quarter of

:19:05.:19:07.

households in occupied territories have insecure access to food with an

:19:08.:19:11.

estimated 1 million in need of health and nutrition assistance.

:19:12.:19:15.

Overall the UN estimate that 2 million people in the occupied

:19:16.:19:19.

territories will need some form of humanitarian help in 2017. They

:19:20.:19:25.

summarise the situation as a systematic style of Palestinian

:19:26.:19:30.

rights and man-made humanitarian crisis that has gone on for too

:19:31.:19:33.

long. The government confirmed that in the past year 1010 Palestinian

:19:34.:19:40.

homes were destroyed, dismantled, skated in area C and East Jerusalem

:19:41.:19:48.

last year. The highest in East Jerusalem since 2000. Leaving 1476

:19:49.:19:55.

people, including 696 children displaced and vulnerable. These

:19:56.:20:00.

figures are, I'm sure we'd all agree, very disturbing, and speak to

:20:01.:20:03.

the pain and trauma of many, many families. But in addition to

:20:04.:20:08.

dismantling Palestinian homes, the Israeli authorities also demolished

:20:09.:20:15.

274 humanitarian structures which effectively our tents, shelters,

:20:16.:20:19.

Goldings that our housing the homeless. A situation the UN said

:20:20.:20:25.

was unprecedented. It is unprecedented, but it is also

:20:26.:20:32.

intolerable and inhumane. The disregard for human rights does not

:20:33.:20:35.

apply in just the Gaza and the West Bank. Recently I asked a series of

:20:36.:20:39.

questions about the Bedouin amenities in Israel, in particular

:20:40.:20:49.

one specific village. It appears a forced demolition is taking place,

:20:50.:20:53.

condemned as an ugly episode of discrimination mirroring Israel's

:20:54.:20:59.

unlawful settlements. As we've heard the Australian Parliament passed a

:21:00.:21:01.

law that legalised 1000 Israeli settlement building is in direct

:21:02.:21:06.

contravention of both international law and previous decisions. The

:21:07.:21:12.

Minister knows that the US president has expressed strong support for

:21:13.:21:16.

Israel, even going so far as to suggest the United Nations

:21:17.:21:20.

resolution 2334, a clear and straightforward reaffirmation of

:21:21.:21:24.

intervals would not have been passed if it had been put after his

:21:25.:21:27.

inauguration. Does the Minister think that Israel's recent

:21:28.:21:32.

acceleration of it illegal settlement policy is in anyway

:21:33.:21:36.

linked to the new United States president? Is their geopolitical

:21:37.:21:40.

cover for settlement expansion provided by the US? If so what can

:21:41.:21:44.

he do about it? Today the government response has been to express

:21:45.:21:47.

concern. They have expressed concern for a long time about the continued

:21:48.:21:52.

settlement policy. In answer to my question about the forced demolition

:21:53.:21:57.

of Bedouin homes, just this week they expressed their official

:21:58.:22:01.

concern about the land regularisation bill that passed

:22:02.:22:07.

through the Israeli parliament. Stephen Kinnock. Thank you, I'd like

:22:08.:22:11.

to thank and congratulate honourable members for securing today's debate.

:22:12.:22:15.

Little did we know when this debate was granted quite how prescient it

:22:16.:22:19.

would be. Just as the Israeli Prime Minister was flying back, but unless

:22:20.:22:23.

it was passing the so-called regularisation bill which legalises

:22:24.:22:33.

over 50 illegal units, and the expropriation of almost 2000 acres

:22:34.:22:38.

of private Palestinian land, in short it legalises the illegal. I

:22:39.:22:43.

guess after alternative factor in Washington we now have alternative

:22:44.:22:46.

facts on the ground as defined by the government of Israel. Mr

:22:47.:22:50.

Speaker, this debate isn't about being pro-Israel of pro-Palestine,

:22:51.:22:55.

it's about standing up for the values and norms that we hold dear.

:22:56.:22:59.

It is about upholding the rule of law and not shirking our

:23:00.:23:03.

responsibilities. Settlements fanned the flames of discontent and

:23:04.:23:05.

grievance, driving us further from peace, they undermine the legal

:23:06.:23:11.

authority of Israel, destroying the trust required to reach any

:23:12.:23:15.

meaningful peace agreement and they undermined the territorial integrity

:23:16.:23:18.

of a future Palestinian state and the prospect of a viable two state

:23:19.:23:23.

solution. The continued expansion of illegal settlements doesn't just

:23:24.:23:25.

hurt Palestinian people, it hurt Israel as well because there can be

:23:26.:23:30.

no security for Israel without peace and there can be no peace without

:23:31.:23:36.

I think of the father I met in a hospital in the wake of the 2014

:23:37.:23:42.

Gaza for nursing his four-year-old son who just lost both his legs in a

:23:43.:23:46.

rocket attack. I think of the Bedouin unity, the residents living

:23:47.:23:51.

in perpetual fear of military demolition and harassment. I think

:23:52.:23:56.

of the 13,000 children from the refugee camp in East Jerusalem

:23:57.:24:01.

crossing multiple checkpoints, facing harassment just get to school

:24:02.:24:05.

each day. I think of the quarter of a million children across

:24:06.:24:08.

Palestinian territories who the UN identifies as in need of

:24:09.:24:12.

psychosocial support and child protection interventions. I think of

:24:13.:24:14.

a ten-year-old Gaza and child who will have already witnessed three

:24:15.:24:20.

wars. What does the future hold for these children? What hope can we

:24:21.:24:23.

offer them? When you boil the issues down to their essence, the presence

:24:24.:24:30.

of almost 600,000 Israeli settlers on land internationally recognised

:24:31.:24:32.

as occupied is what drives this conflict. And it should be stepping

:24:33.:24:39.

up as a critical friend, that means ending direct support for

:24:40.:24:46.

settlement. In line with the UK guidelines we should prohibit trade

:24:47.:24:50.

with companies and financial communities composite with

:24:51.:24:54.

settlements and prohibit dealings with charities involved in

:24:55.:24:57.

settlement projects. We must be consistent in our alignment with the

:24:58.:25:01.

universal principle of prohibiting trade with illegally annexed

:25:02.:25:06.

territories. This is why we must do all in our power to halt and reverse

:25:07.:25:10.

settlements and that is why we must support this notion. I must say that

:25:11.:25:17.

the windups need to begin no later than caught a pass three and I think

:25:18.:25:20.

there are eight people still wanting to contribute. I am grateful for the

:25:21.:25:27.

backbench committee allowing this debate. I visited Israel and

:25:28.:25:31.

Palestine three years ago and saw the construction of settlements

:25:32.:25:34.

first-hand. I also want to thank my constituents who wrote to me on this

:25:35.:25:39.

issue and supported this debate. I believe fundamentally in the two

:25:40.:25:44.

state solution, this is what we must give as the international community

:25:45.:25:47.

to progress in efforts to secure long-term peace. But we know that

:25:48.:25:52.

Israeli settlements are illegal, contrary to international law and

:25:53.:25:56.

indeed undermine the prospect of the viability of the state of Palestine.

:25:57.:26:00.

Settlements are a barrier to trust and they are a barrier to peace. I

:26:01.:26:06.

want to make two brief points today. Firstly on the need for renewed

:26:07.:26:08.

international talks and the need to focus on the issue of children and

:26:09.:26:13.

education in Palestine as well. Secondly to recognise the

:26:14.:26:18.

contribution of associations like the Britain Palestine twinning

:26:19.:26:20.

Association, those organisations here and in the Middle East do good

:26:21.:26:25.

work. Vista speaker, Palestinians and Israel must know that with so

:26:26.:26:28.

many other security issues in the world that they are not forgotten.

:26:29.:26:34.

Political solutions remain a distant hope, the prospect and welfare of

:26:35.:26:38.

children are of great concern. In Gaza there is an alarming rise in

:26:39.:26:41.

malnutrition amongst children because they cannot get food they

:26:42.:26:45.

need. A rise of kidney disease amongst children because water is

:26:46.:26:48.

not drinkable. Because there are not enough schools for children, many

:26:49.:26:53.

schools are operating double or triple shifts, starting at 6am and

:26:54.:26:57.

finishing at 6pm. Parents worried about children going to school in

:26:58.:27:02.

the dark are making them stay in the dark, particularly in the education

:27:03.:27:06.

of girls. From the West Bank I have heard that children cannot get to

:27:07.:27:09.

school safely. Around 30,000 children in Jerusalem cross a

:27:10.:27:13.

checkpoint every day just to get to school. The increase in demolition

:27:14.:27:18.

is of course affecting whole communities and is particularly

:27:19.:27:21.

traumatic for children who have seen homes destroyed and schools, too.

:27:22.:27:25.

The children of Palestine and Israel will be the leaders of tomorrow we

:27:26.:27:29.

will need to work with solutions for how they live side-by-side. I also

:27:30.:27:36.

want to recognise the work of associations like the Britain

:27:37.:27:38.

Palestinian twinning Association in the UK who recently held their

:27:39.:27:42.

annual meeting in Hounslow, whose work forms an important connection

:27:43.:27:46.

between young people here and in Palestine, building those cultural

:27:47.:27:50.

and education links that keep positive contact with the outside

:27:51.:27:53.

world. I want to close my remarks with questions for the minister, on

:27:54.:27:57.

the basis of the UK Government condemnation of Israeli illegal

:27:58.:28:02.

settlement building is unchanged, what steps will Her Majesty 's

:28:03.:28:06.

government take to ensure that action is taken to stop settlements

:28:07.:28:14.

with the Prime Minister's stated determination to expand them, and

:28:15.:28:17.

strengthen advice to British business is about engaging with

:28:18.:28:20.

other businesses that support settlements so that we do everything

:28:21.:28:23.

we can to stop settlements in the illegal enterprise that comes from

:28:24.:28:28.

them. Thank you Mr Speaker, I would like to start by saying I have

:28:29.:28:32.

absolutely nothing to declare but my recent trip to Israel and Palestine

:28:33.:28:39.

territories. Countries I've been visiting since the first Gulf War.

:28:40.:28:45.

Back then Palestinian Democrats warned of the rise of fundamentalist

:28:46.:28:50.

Hamas. They argued that Israel failed to support an independent

:28:51.:28:53.

Palestinian state, extremism would rise. The centre ground would lose

:28:54.:28:58.

and peace would be harder to attain. In my previous role as a journalist

:28:59.:29:04.

I interviewed the late, great Edward sighed and they had a series of

:29:05.:29:10.

reasonable demands. He spoke of reconciliation and renounced the use

:29:11.:29:13.

of violent rhetoric. They wanted to see a homeland for Palestinian

:29:14.:29:16.

people and acknowledgement of the great injustices committed towards

:29:17.:29:21.

them as we know so many driven from their homes and into refugee camps

:29:22.:29:25.

when Israel was created. And crucially both wanted reassurance

:29:26.:29:29.

that Israeli territorial expansion would end. When I first visited

:29:30.:29:37.

Israel and Palestine, the separate populations was around 200,000.

:29:38.:29:42.

Today, 20 years later, there are more than 600,000 settlers. Now,

:29:43.:29:47.

people come from all across the world to live in Israel, for lots of

:29:48.:29:51.

reasons. Those seeking a better life in illegal settlements, the

:29:52.:29:57.

appropriation of Palestinian land and homes and while Palestinian

:29:58.:30:02.

farmland is barren and dry, many settlements have swimming pools with

:30:03.:30:07.

illegally funnelled water. They consume six to ten times more water

:30:08.:30:12.

per head than the Palestinians. Israel's policy of creating facts on

:30:13.:30:17.

the ground is brutal and determined to establish so many settlements on

:30:18.:30:21.

the West Bank that a contiguous Palestinian state becomes

:30:22.:30:25.

impossible. We must consider the consequences of this for Israel

:30:26.:30:30.

itself. If a viable two state solution dies and Palestine is

:30:31.:30:34.

subsumed into greater Israel stretching from the Mediterranean to

:30:35.:30:38.

the dead Sea, what happens to the five to 6 million Palestinians in

:30:39.:30:42.

the Jewish state with no government of their own? An abiding memory of

:30:43.:30:48.

my first trip to Israel and Palestine was taking tea in a

:30:49.:30:52.

refugee camp. Some of the eldest brought out there British mandate of

:30:53.:30:59.

Palestine, and keys to long appropriated house is. They told me

:31:00.:31:02.

they trusted British honour and British law and asked why we remain

:31:03.:31:04.

so silent in the face of injustice. Can you explain to me, he asked,

:31:05.:31:17.

when the evil committed against innocents in Europe 60 years ago,

:31:18.:31:23.

you turned a blind eye to the injustice of my family's expulsion

:31:24.:31:27.

from our home to provide compensation for people in whose

:31:28.:31:31.

oppression we played no part? This goes to the heart of the issue, we

:31:32.:31:35.

cannot turn a blind eye to theft any longer. We cannot allow bitterness

:31:36.:31:47.

to pass to another generation. I visited the West Bank in Jerusalem

:31:48.:31:50.

in January and a draw attention to what will soon appear on my register

:31:51.:31:55.

of interest to the support and thanks to the Britain and Palestine

:31:56.:31:58.

communication centre, the President's office, and the

:31:59.:32:03.

Palestinian mission. Can I say every Palestinian we met, authority

:32:04.:32:06.

member, elected city leader, political activist, young people,

:32:07.:32:10.

all subscribe to the two state solution and wanted help in the

:32:11.:32:16.

ensuing this can happen. When I saw as other colleagues all settlements

:32:17.:32:20.

marching over hills, over expert both visited land, usually

:32:21.:32:25.

illegally, -- expropriated land. The march of the fence on the wall

:32:26.:32:31.

through fields, the destruction and the occupation of the old city of

:32:32.:32:35.

the brawn, and closed businesses there. -- of Hebron. Settlements are

:32:36.:32:45.

the issue, but if you want to address stonethrowing and violence

:32:46.:32:49.

by posting in children, you want to look at the brutalisation they and

:32:50.:32:52.

their families have been subjected to for decades. Mr Speaker, we

:32:53.:33:00.

visited the UN office for the coordination of humanitarian

:33:01.:33:03.

affairs, who showed us their accurate, factual information,

:33:04.:33:06.

showing that 43% of the West Bank is out of bounds to Palestinians, a

:33:07.:33:14.

Swiss cheese of disjointed errors of Palestinian land and they are

:33:15.:33:17.

effectively excluded from the rest, even if they have historic ownership

:33:18.:33:22.

over any of that land. Hours after meeting with Theresa May on Monday,

:33:23.:33:28.

recently, the Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu returned to Israel to vote

:33:29.:33:33.

on the law that allows the Israeli state to seize land privately owned

:33:34.:33:37.

by Palestinians in the West Bank and grant the properties to be used

:33:38.:33:41.

exclusively by Jewish settlements. Whilst the decision on 24th of

:33:42.:33:45.

January did indeed order 40 or 50 families to be moved from the

:33:46.:33:52.

outpost, in the same week and was given the 2500 new dwellings inside

:33:53.:34:00.

the West Bank and 566 new settlement dwellings inside Jerusalem, taking

:34:01.:34:02.

over thousands of acres of Palestinian land.

:34:03.:34:16.

As a the Israelis living there do have the right to vote. Israeli

:34:17.:34:30.

civil law applies to settlers Palestinians should not be made to

:34:31.:34:31.

go they should be an international

:34:32.:34:42.

negotiation, and this government Kello our government should play a

:34:43.:34:47.

major part. I was privileged to visit the West Bank for the first

:34:48.:34:51.

and only time last year with the council for Arab British

:34:52.:34:53.

understanding and the award-winning charity, human appeal. As the

:34:54.:34:57.

honourable member feeling central said earlier it was a real

:34:58.:35:00.

eye-opener. I had no idea of the size and scale of the settlement of

:35:01.:35:04.

the West Bank. When you go there and see for yourself how big they are

:35:05.:35:07.

and how well service they are and how well entrenched they are, the

:35:08.:35:12.

reality of how difficult it is going to be move them becomes very plain.

:35:13.:35:17.

As a lawyer I was particularly struck about the abuses of human

:35:18.:35:23.

rights in the West Bank. And no problem. I want to take that little

:35:24.:35:27.

time I have to make it quite clear that under international law these

:35:28.:35:35.

settlements are illegal. The international community continue --

:35:36.:35:40.

considers the establishments of the settlements as a legal under

:35:41.:35:44.

international law because the fourth Geneva Convention prohibits

:35:45.:35:47.

countries from moving population in the territories occupied in a wall.

:35:48.:35:52.

That is a legal fact. I am aware that the state of Israel maintains

:35:53.:35:56.

that the settlements are consistent with international law because it

:35:57.:36:00.

doesn't agree that the forthcoming June -- Geneva Convention applies.

:36:01.:36:04.

However the weight of international opinion is against them on that. The

:36:05.:36:08.

following organisations have all affirmed that the fourth Geneva

:36:09.:36:11.

Convention does apply, and therefore the settlements are legal. United

:36:12.:36:17.

stations security -- new nation Asian school together, the General

:36:18.:36:21.

Assembly, International Committee of the Red Cross the international

:36:22.:36:23.

court of justice and the high contracting parties. This is a

:36:24.:36:27.

matter of the rule of law. I have been to the Israeli Embassy and as a

:36:28.:36:32.

lesbian woman they have come at how fantastic Israel is on gay rights,

:36:33.:36:36.

and it is on LGBT rights, but the point of view on right is that they

:36:37.:36:40.

are universal. Palestinians have the same rights as Israelis and

:36:41.:36:45.

international law, or at least they should have, but at present they

:36:46.:36:48.

don't. And no matter how important it is that there should be a state

:36:49.:36:53.

of Israel, and I believe it is important, and no matter how much of

:36:54.:36:56.

a good friend Israel may be to the United Kingdom, it is imperative

:36:57.:36:59.

that as Democrats and people who believe in the rule of law that we

:37:00.:37:03.

speak the truth in these issues, and we don't let the Israeli government

:37:04.:37:11.

get away with distorted facts, when it comes to the fact and matter of

:37:12.:37:15.

the Lou -- the rule of law. I have very little time but I

:37:16.:37:25.

two additional asks he did not get to mention, firstly to the Minister

:37:26.:37:31.

give us a timetable for recognition of the state of Palestine by the

:37:32.:37:35.

United Kingdom, and could he also say what the British government will

:37:36.:37:38.

do to support peace groups within the state of Israel that are

:37:39.:37:44.

striving to achieve peace? The settlements are illegal and they

:37:45.:37:49.

must be central to any talks. A number of members have suggested

:37:50.:37:52.

direct negotiations should take place. I would question whether that

:37:53.:37:56.

is something that is feasible now. There is no trust whatsoever between

:37:57.:38:00.

the two partners, and those would be very unequal tasks, unequal talks

:38:01.:38:05.

something the Israelis themselves acknowledge that they have many of

:38:06.:38:08.

the Trump cards in those negotiations. What is the UK

:38:09.:38:13.

contribution to this peace process? I'm voters of pointed by the Prime

:38:14.:38:20.

Minister's position taken on John Kerry's speech, a depressing bold

:38:21.:38:23.

farce, I found. Particularly confusing given that the Foreign

:38:24.:38:26.

Secretary had said about the Paris conference that his intention was

:38:27.:38:31.

that we should go the to be reinforcing our message. The

:38:32.:38:35.

government intended that as -- attended that as an observer, so

:38:36.:38:38.

unless our message was we had nothing to say it is very hard to

:38:39.:38:42.

see how the government were in a position as an observer to reinforce

:38:43.:38:46.

our message. The Liberal Democrat support a two state solution and we

:38:47.:38:50.

believe it will be achieved partly through international corporation,

:38:51.:38:54.

like the Paris conference. There are unilateral actions that should be

:38:55.:38:59.

taken, something John Kerry has underlined. For the Palestinians,

:39:00.:39:06.

yes, we do want them to clamp down on violent and any glorification of

:39:07.:39:09.

violence, but equally there must be unilateral actions from the

:39:10.:39:14.

Israelis, and I'm afraid you are full actions were soon from the

:39:15.:39:17.

Israelis so far have a negative nature and many members have...

:39:18.:39:22.

Happy to give way. On the question of unilateral actions and the

:39:23.:39:30.

significance, do we understand, can my right honourable friend imagine

:39:31.:39:36.

any sustainable settlements existing as they do? Indeed, I thank him for

:39:37.:39:42.

that intervention and I am just sorry that he won't have an

:39:43.:39:46.

opportunity to make a greater contribution today. As I said, the

:39:47.:39:51.

land registration Bill is a example of the very counter-productive

:39:52.:39:55.

initiative, as is the expansion in a silly. I hope we'll hear from the

:39:56.:40:04.

Minister of concrete -- in area C. So far the tone down press releases

:40:05.:40:10.

that we have had from the government I'm afraid have made no difference

:40:11.:40:21.

Mr Speaker, it is clear that whilst the illegal settlements are not the

:40:22.:40:32.

only problem, every attempt to legitimise their illegality is

:40:33.:40:34.

rightly seen as a slap in the face to the Palestinians and a della --

:40:35.:40:40.

demonstration of bad faith by the Israeli government, as is any

:40:41.:40:43.

instance of Palestinian violence against Israel, that will clearly

:40:44.:40:47.

also be seen as a demonstration of bad faith. But the fact is each

:40:48.:40:52.

illegal settlement expansion strengthens Israel's hand and makes

:40:53.:40:56.

a two state solution, which many senior Israeli politicians clearly

:40:57.:41:01.

dismiss, increasingly impossible. Ministers say that Palestinian

:41:02.:41:05.

recognition will be appropriate at a time when it will have the most

:41:06.:41:09.

impact. That time is now. If ministers wait any longer, posting

:41:10.:41:15.

in recognition will be pointless as a one state solution will have been

:41:16.:41:22.

imposed. As other people have been declaring interests, I spent two

:41:23.:41:26.

weeks last Easter with medical aid for Palestinians as a breast surgeon

:41:27.:41:29.

working in east Jerusalem and working in teaching in Gaza. As many

:41:30.:41:34.

people in the chamber now, I worked for 18 months in 91 and 92 as a

:41:35.:41:39.

surgeon in Gaza, and so I still know the place quite well. I would echo

:41:40.:41:45.

the honourable member for Henley's comment about Israeli doctors

:41:46.:41:48.

treating people from all communities. That is absolutely true

:41:49.:41:51.

but often we could not get patients to Israeli doctors in the Havasu

:41:52.:41:59.

hospital because of curfews. I had patients dying in Amazon says

:42:00.:42:02.

because of curfews, it can-year-old boy turned back fast to try to look

:42:03.:42:06.

at how to get through the night, even though we did not have the

:42:07.:42:12.

equipment. When I was there last Easter, having worked there during

:42:13.:42:16.

the start of the Oslo accord I was relieved pressed to see that a

:42:17.:42:18.

quarter of the Centurion we are further from peace than we were. By

:42:19.:42:27.

the end of the Madrid peace conference, despite the violence

:42:28.:42:29.

that had happened on the day, I saw young men on armoured cars with

:42:30.:42:33.

olive branches. They believe their lives were going to change, and a

:42:34.:42:36.

quarter of a century later, the international community have let

:42:37.:42:41.

them down. There are 1.8 million people living in the tiny strip of

:42:42.:42:47.

Gaza. It is becoming unviable. It is pouring sewage into the sea, the

:42:48.:42:52.

water is undrinkable, and it is described that it will be non-viable

:42:53.:42:55.

by the mid-20s. The West Bank has been turned into the same situation

:42:56.:43:02.

by the expansion of settlements. It isn't just the settlements, it is

:43:03.:43:06.

the walls separating people from their farmland or the source of

:43:07.:43:10.

water. Set of rules that don't allow them to cross the road even to get

:43:11.:43:13.

to their olive groves or their water source. So what is the vision for

:43:14.:43:19.

the West Bank, is it that Palestinians will simply live on

:43:20.:43:23.

reservations, as happened to Native Americans centuries ago? What is the

:43:24.:43:28.

vision for that outcome that even the Israeli government want? The

:43:29.:43:33.

only thing we have is international law, and if we do not stick to

:43:34.:43:39.

international law, we will have no position of right for other people

:43:40.:43:43.

that do the wrong thing. It has been said there should not be

:43:44.:43:47.

international players, aged just be the Palestinians and Israelis. This

:43:48.:43:51.

is a totally unbalanced conversation. Northern Ireland have

:43:52.:43:54.

the UK Government, the Irish government and the American

:43:55.:43:58.

government to bring it to success, and we need to be involved. Everyone

:43:59.:44:02.

has stood up and said they believed in a two state solution, so how

:44:03.:44:07.

bizarre is it that we only recognise one of those states. If we do not

:44:08.:44:12.

take action to avoid profit from settlement and avoid annexation by

:44:13.:44:21.

concrete, we will be answerable. As joint vice-chair of the APPG on

:44:22.:44:24.

human rights I approached today buzz back to bed with human rights at the

:44:25.:44:29.

forefront of my mind. I and my party supporter EU solution of a two state

:44:30.:44:36.

solution to reach its sustainable negotiated settlement under

:44:37.:44:40.

international law. There can be no justification for any impediment to

:44:41.:44:44.

progress and the peace versus such as indiscriminate rocket attacks on

:44:45.:44:48.

Israel or the continued expansion of illegal settlement of the occupied

:44:49.:44:56.

territories. Israeli settlements have been established in clear

:44:57.:45:00.

violation of this law. The UN human rights Council rubbish and an

:45:01.:45:07.

independent fact-finding commission and edits 2013 report stated that

:45:08.:45:11.

the impact of settlement on the human rights of the Palestinians as

:45:12.:45:15.

manifested in various forms and ways. The illegal settlements also

:45:16.:45:20.

critically interfere with the ability of the Palestinian people to

:45:21.:45:25.

exercise their fundamental right to self-determination, and it is not

:45:26.:45:28.

just the settlements, it is the associated infrastructure built on a

:45:29.:45:34.

expropriated Palestinian land that has a substantial impact. The SNP

:45:35.:45:39.

have time and time again called on the UK Government to use its

:45:40.:45:42.

influence to help to revitalise the peace process, and find a way to

:45:43.:45:46.

break through the political deadlock. So I asked the minister

:45:47.:45:52.

today, and I know the Minister has a keen personal interest in the area:

:45:53.:45:58.

Will the UK Government recognise a state of Palestine on the basis of

:45:59.:46:03.

the pre-1967 borders, affirming the equal rights of both people to live

:46:04.:46:09.

in sovereign independent and secure states? The situation worsens over

:46:10.:46:12.

territory and as it does the likelihood of a peaceful resolution

:46:13.:46:16.

fades. The time is right for the UK to recognise Palestine, and their

:46:17.:46:23.

right to self-determination. The UK has not only amoral but a legal

:46:24.:46:25.

duty. Due to the fact that the

:46:26.:46:37.

Palestinians are prohibited from exercising their fundamental right

:46:38.:46:41.

to self-determination. Please, such action has to be taken, a tougher

:46:42.:46:45.

stance needs to be taken today, and I hope that the minister will take

:46:46.:46:51.

all views expressed on board. I am well known as a friend of Israel and

:46:52.:46:56.

as a friend you are honest, open and truthful. With that in mind there

:46:57.:47:04.

must be fairness to all. I think 2334 has adversely affected the

:47:05.:47:08.

Jewish right to freedom. We all know that the matter of settlements and

:47:09.:47:11.

peace in the Middle East is a complex issue. Hailing from Northern

:47:12.:47:15.

Ireland I have been involved in a peace process and having gone

:47:16.:47:18.

through that we know the complex issues. Appeasement cannot be the

:47:19.:47:25.

answer for Israel or Palestine, working together is the only answer

:47:26.:47:28.

and that is hard to do in the situation and I speak from

:47:29.:47:34.

experience. It is clear that Jewish negotiators have tried to bring

:47:35.:47:40.

about some semblance of peace. For some people their description of the

:47:41.:47:43.

negotiation is to demand things their way or no way and that leads

:47:44.:47:47.

back to violence. I have a very real fear that we are pushing Israel into

:47:48.:47:51.

a place that they don't want to be and where we do not want them to be

:47:52.:47:59.

either. I remember seeing Israeli women and children on the streets

:48:00.:48:03.

defending their historic homeland. I do not wish to see Israel again

:48:04.:48:09.

pushed into place where there is no option or where their options are

:48:10.:48:14.

restricted. I know the heart of the Israeli people is simple, they wish

:48:15.:48:17.

to be allowed to return home and peace. There is no doubt in my mind

:48:18.:48:28.

there is a historic right. I fully understand the concern that the

:48:29.:48:32.

UNESCO vote seemed to disregard Jewish heritage and we seem to be

:48:33.:48:39.

going through a similar issue in Northern Ireland as well. We want

:48:40.:48:42.

peace in the Middle East but it must be fair. There can never be peace

:48:43.:48:46.

with our recognition that the Wailing Wall and the Temple Mount at

:48:47.:48:54.

Jewish sites. They must underpin the negotiations and not the presumption

:48:55.:48:56.

that the dues themselves are the ones to blame. I cannot support this

:48:57.:49:08.

motion. There can only be peace in the Middle East by encouragement and

:49:09.:49:13.

not division. Start today with the right message, Israel is a friend of

:49:14.:49:17.

this nation and we will do the right thing by them. Three front bench

:49:18.:49:22.

windups of no more than eight minutes each followed by a brief

:49:23.:49:26.

conclusion by the honourable gentleman for New Forest West. I

:49:27.:49:30.

congratulate all the members that worked to secure this debate and the

:49:31.:49:36.

many who have spoken and recognise the passion on display. It is a

:49:37.:49:39.

complex and sensitive issue and we all agree nobody has a monopoly of

:49:40.:49:49.

wisdom. And that line mentioned, all people will become brethren if only

:49:50.:49:54.

we can allow joy and freedom to rain is an important consideration. The

:49:55.:50:01.

SNP position has been the peace depends on two prosperous states

:50:02.:50:06.

living side-by-side. Israel and Palestine should be encouraged to

:50:07.:50:08.

reach a sustainable negotiated settlement under the international

:50:09.:50:13.

law which has mutual risk ignition and the determination to coexist

:50:14.:50:20.

peacefully. Whether in discriminant rocket attacks on Israel, or illegal

:50:21.:50:27.

expansion in the occupied territories. I had the privilege of

:50:28.:50:39.

visiting the holy land in a personal capacity, and it was impossible not

:50:40.:50:43.

to be aware of the tensions, the legacy and the impact of the ongoing

:50:44.:50:46.

conflict. That being said it is worth stressing the journey itself

:50:47.:50:50.

was safe and secure and brought home to me the massive potential for the

:50:51.:50:56.

economies of Israel and Palestine if a peaceful settlement can be

:50:57.:51:04.

reached. But we did pass through the border between Bethlehem and

:51:05.:51:08.

Jerusalem several times, and Christmas carols were never quite

:51:09.:51:11.

the same once you have done that. I saw young Palestinians stopped and

:51:12.:51:17.

subjected to security searches. I pay tribute to the ongoing

:51:18.:51:21.

ecumenical accompaniment programme which witnesses monstrous incidents

:51:22.:51:30.

that those checkpoints. It is not hard to see why these threaten the

:51:31.:51:41.

contiguity of the Palestinian state. On one side, dusty streets, on the

:51:42.:51:45.

other manicure lawns, and that is unjust, in a land of such plenty

:51:46.:51:49.

nobody should need to go hungry or thirsty. We have had powerful

:51:50.:51:52.

testimony about the impact of the conflict across communities. The

:51:53.:51:59.

motion and the debate has focused on the UN Security Council resolution

:52:00.:52:03.

2334, something of a milestone and welcomed as a demonstration of the

:52:04.:52:06.

potential role paid by the United Nations. For 70 years the UN has

:52:07.:52:11.

broad countries together to work for peace and human rights and it must

:52:12.:52:14.

be supported to continue its mission. The resolution makes clear

:52:15.:52:21.

the settlements constitute a flagrant violation of international

:52:22.:52:27.

law and that remains the case in the light of retrospective legitimacy.

:52:28.:52:30.

As the member for Reigate said there is no political consensus within

:52:31.:52:36.

Israel on the law. It is a provocative gesture but the response

:52:37.:52:39.

must be one of Dublin diplomatic efforts. It does not compel Israel

:52:40.:52:47.

to concede any sovereign territory, nor any further territorial

:52:48.:52:53.

moderations. It confirmed the point of international law that the

:52:54.:52:56.

settlements are illegal and should stop. The destruction of Palestinian

:52:57.:53:03.

villages, it must also stop. I have heard powerfully and loudly from my

:53:04.:53:06.

own constituents concerned about this practice and the effect it has

:53:07.:53:10.

on communities. This raises several questions for the Minister and to

:53:11.:53:13.

his credit this is one of the ministers that does respond even if

:53:14.:53:17.

we don't always agree with his responses he does a good job of

:53:18.:53:21.

responding. It would be helpful to hear what representations have been

:53:22.:53:23.

made to the government Israel about the legislation. Is it satisfied

:53:24.:53:29.

with the discussions are Prime Minister had with the Israeli Prime

:53:30.:53:33.

Minister were sufficient? What steps is the government taking to ensure

:53:34.:53:36.

the UK adheres to the Security Council demands distinguishing

:53:37.:53:41.

between Israel and the occupied territories? After leaving the EU

:53:42.:53:46.

will the UK continue to meet this differentiation? As has been

:53:47.:53:53.

repeatedly said, a peaceful solution must be based on recognition on both

:53:54.:53:57.

sides which applies not only to people of the State of Israel and

:53:58.:54:00.

Palestine but also to their supporters and allies in the

:54:01.:54:05.

international community. Under no circumstances are attacks or abuse

:54:06.:54:09.

on Jewish people or any manifestation of anti-Semitism

:54:10.:54:14.

acceptable? And that also applies to violence and extremism in any form,

:54:15.:54:20.

whether Palestinian, Jewish, Israeli communities. In the SNP we are also

:54:21.:54:27.

clear that trade and investment in illegal settlements should be

:54:28.:54:31.

discouraged and the Scottish Government has published Kirmond

:54:32.:54:34.

guidance reflecting that position. My visit to the holy land given new

:54:35.:54:38.

appreciation for the deep history and spirituality of the people and

:54:39.:54:41.

places and never have I felt more keenly or urgently these words, for

:54:42.:54:48.

the peace of Jerusalem, pray, peace be to your homes, made peace reign

:54:49.:54:51.

in your walls and in your palaces, peace. Thank you. May I start by

:54:52.:54:58.

thanking members on both sides of the house for securing this debate?

:54:59.:55:02.

People in the public gallery watching this will see the house at

:55:03.:55:06.

its best when it comes to debates like this and many people who are

:55:07.:55:09.

very well-informed indeed. I was expecting an excellent speech from

:55:10.:55:13.

the member for Birmingham Northfield and excellent speeches from the

:55:14.:55:18.

honourable member from Reigate and many other members. If I could pick

:55:19.:55:23.

one favourite speech I would pick the speech of the honourable member

:55:24.:55:26.

from Twickenham who spoke without notes and spoke with passion and was

:55:27.:55:30.

very articulate and I commend her for it. It may be that other people

:55:31.:55:35.

watching will have other favourites but in the time available I won't

:55:36.:55:39.

try and summarise all contributions, but I thought the contribution was

:55:40.:55:44.

an excellent one. I believe that the carefully drafted motion does

:55:45.:55:46.

represent a consensus shared across this house. There are many

:55:47.:55:50.

differences and we had them today but what unites us is so much more

:55:51.:55:54.

than divides us on this and I think it is important we speak clearly and

:55:55.:56:01.

loudly about settlements. This is clearly an important anniversary

:56:02.:56:04.

year and this debate is very timely. When we look at the great sweep of

:56:05.:56:08.

history, the Six Day War and its aftermath to the UN partition plan

:56:09.:56:12.

all the way back to the Balfour declaration, it is quite clear that

:56:13.:56:16.

in many ways we seem to have come to a halt. The last few years have been

:56:17.:56:22.

very dark and depressing with very little movement. I fear we have

:56:23.:56:27.

almost been slipping backwards and a two state solution is moving further

:56:28.:56:30.

away from us. Clearly settlements are a major part of this problem but

:56:31.:56:33.

we must recognise them for what they are. Settlements are a threat to

:56:34.:56:39.

peace and a violation of international law. At the same time

:56:40.:56:42.

we cannot pretend this conflict can be reduced to that issue as that is

:56:43.:56:50.

simply not the case. There must be an unequivocal end to violence and

:56:51.:56:54.

incitement on both sides as the honourable member for Liverpool

:56:55.:56:58.

Riverside put so well. In dark and difficult times the question is, do

:56:59.:57:03.

we give up hope and walk away? We must be honest that the road out of

:57:04.:57:08.

us is very hard. And the question that I asked today is, has the

:57:09.:57:11.

government decided that what with Brexit and the crisis in the NHS and

:57:12.:57:15.

the collapse of social care and the challenge of the Trump presidency

:57:16.:57:19.

and wars all over the Middle East, that continuing to be involved in

:57:20.:57:23.

such a bitter and long-standing dispute is just one challenge too

:57:24.:57:27.

many? In many ways that was the message ministers sent to the Paris

:57:28.:57:32.

conference last month when 36 countries sent a Foreign Minister

:57:33.:57:35.

but not the United Kingdom, where our presence was downgraded to

:57:36.:57:40.

observer status. And it really didn't make any sense because the

:57:41.:57:45.

objectives of the conference and the content of the communiqu were so

:57:46.:57:49.

closely aligned to the sentiments expressed in the UN security

:57:50.:57:53.

resolution 2334 which I'm told that UK had a key role in drafting last

:57:54.:57:57.

December, so it's as if we've been blowing hot and cold. What is going

:57:58.:58:01.

on? Is the government losing its nerve? The official explanation was

:58:02.:58:07.

that they chose not to attend because no Israeli Palestinian

:58:08.:58:10.

representatives were present but that doesn't make sense because the

:58:11.:58:13.

Paris conference wasn't some sort of quick slot it attempts to the need

:58:14.:58:18.

for bilateral negotiations but rather to affirm support for them.

:58:19.:58:26.

In resolution 2334 it showed the international community has aways

:58:27.:58:30.

had a role to play in helping to facilitate bilateral talks. For

:58:31.:58:34.

Labour, as internationalists, friends of Israel and friends of the

:58:35.:58:38.

Palestinians, that understanding is crucial. As my honourable friend the

:58:39.:58:43.

member for Wrexham who was Shadow Minister for the Middle East put it

:58:44.:58:46.

a few years ago, we have made it very clear that we will always work

:58:47.:58:51.

multilaterally to advance the two state solution. I hope the Minister

:58:52.:58:58.

could explain why the government seems to lack the same cooperative

:58:59.:59:00.

spirit, or at least it does sometimes. Whatever the official

:59:01.:59:05.

reason, the clear subtext to the decision not to go to Paris was the

:59:06.:59:10.

election of President Trump in the United States and many have

:59:11.:59:14.

suggested his election was bad news for the peace process and that we

:59:15.:59:17.

should give up hope, and I can understand why. Consider the words

:59:18.:59:24.

of one of the most influential Netanyahu members of cabinet who

:59:25.:59:27.

said following the election of Donald Trump that the era of the

:59:28.:59:32.

Palestinian state is over. Mr Bennett's regulation Bill seeks to

:59:33.:59:37.

legalise settlements retrospectively and it should be condemned. The fact

:59:38.:59:42.

is that a one state solution would not enjoy the support of the people

:59:43.:59:46.

of Israel or the majority of the people of Palestine and following

:59:47.:59:51.

the settler agenda by doing so the Israeli government is not acting in

:59:52.:59:54.

the interests of the people of the region and certainly not in the

:59:55.:59:57.

interests of the people of Israel because a single state stretching

:59:58.:00:01.

from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River can be one of two things, it

:00:02.:00:07.

can either be Jewish or it can be democratic, as the member for

:00:08.:00:10.

Enfield North so rightly said, it cannot be both. As friends of Israel

:00:11.:00:16.

and friends of Palestine there is no time for the UK to sit on the

:00:17.:00:19.

sidelines. I understand that the regulation Bill was pushed, I can

:00:20.:00:23.

understand why it was pushed forward at this time. After all the man who

:00:24.:00:28.

had just taken office as the President of the United States has

:00:29.:00:31.

expressed some fairly unorthodox views to put it mildly. He's made

:00:32.:00:35.

statements in favour of more settlements, moving to Jerusalem,

:00:36.:00:44.

and has said a two state solution is not a priority. Many of us worry

:00:45.:00:48.

that this rhetoric is divisive but at times we have heard positive

:00:49.:00:52.

words from Mr Trump as well. He has said, for example, he would love to

:00:53.:00:56.

be able to be the one who makes peace with Israel and Palestinians

:00:57.:00:59.

and that he has reason to believe he can do that.

:01:00.:01:05.

The difficulty is that I am far convinced he knows exactly how to do

:01:06.:01:11.

that. That is where we come in, because I think that the expertise

:01:12.:01:15.

at the Foreign Office is very important and the advice we can give

:01:16.:01:21.

to the Americans is very important. It is incumbent on us who wish to

:01:22.:01:24.

look for a two state solution to do everything we can to push on the

:01:25.:01:29.

path to peace. For the government it means making the case to Washington

:01:30.:01:33.

and Tel Aviv, and convincing them a two state solution is both

:01:34.:01:36.

achievable and necessary, so I hope that the Minister can assure us that

:01:37.:01:40.

his government remains committed to a two state solution and opposed

:01:41.:01:42.

anything that stands in the way of that. I am deeply disappointed this

:01:43.:01:47.

government continues to fail to recognise the Palestinian state. Now

:01:48.:01:50.

is the time, and I would ask him to give some comment on that. Secondly,

:01:51.:01:55.

what thought has the government put into how it can be that settlement

:01:56.:01:59.

goods can be separated from other Israeli goods? There are many people

:02:00.:02:02.

who do not wish to buy settlement goods, and as the government doing a

:02:03.:02:07.

further work on that, and how can we persuade British companies not to

:02:08.:02:11.

invest in settlement areas? But most importantly I hope that when

:02:12.:02:15.

President Trump and the Prime Minister Netanyahu visit London

:02:16.:02:17.

later this year, our Prime Minister will have the courage to set out

:02:18.:02:21.

those views in no uncertain terms. I look forward to hearing what the

:02:22.:02:28.

Minister has to say. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. It has been a

:02:29.:02:32.

constructive, informative and at times passionate debate, and an

:02:33.:02:37.

important one and I congratulate my honourable friend and others who

:02:38.:02:39.

have brought this to the house today. I make a very small point

:02:40.:02:46.

that I am responding in just eight minutes, the numbers are people who

:02:47.:02:51.

have wanted to speak today, I hope the business committee will

:02:52.:02:53.

recognise that and I hope we will have a further opportunity, where we

:02:54.:02:59.

will have more time and I will have more time to respond. I will do my

:03:00.:03:04.

best as I always do to write the honourable members of a dead cover

:03:05.:03:08.

the points today. The focus on Israeli settlements is the subject

:03:09.:03:12.

today's debate, but if I can just begin as others have done in firmly

:03:13.:03:15.

underlining our deep friendship with Israel, its people and it's absolute

:03:16.:03:21.

right to exist and indeed defend itself. As has been said, it is a

:03:22.:03:26.

democratic state in a difficult neighbourhood, and in the year where

:03:27.:03:33.

we mark the hundredth anniversary, we continue to have an interest as a

:03:34.:03:40.

nation, a regional Pata and as a permanent

:03:41.:03:48.

including securing a two state solution, which we continue to

:03:49.:03:54.

support that we are discussing here today. I will not be giving way

:03:55.:04:00.

because I only have a low shot at a time. The debate has focused on a

:04:01.:04:04.

number of themes and I will try to cover them to the best of my

:04:05.:04:08.

ability. First on the importance of a two state solution, this is the

:04:09.:04:12.

only wait to secure a just and lasting peace between Israelis and

:04:13.:04:18.

Palestinians, that two state solution, that we must work through,

:04:19.:04:22.

no matter how big the challenges are. This is an objective that has

:04:23.:04:26.

been repeated not just by ourselves or American presidents but also by

:04:27.:04:29.

successive Israeli Prime ministers as well. And the international

:04:30.:04:35.

community. It has also been confirmed through a series of UN

:04:36.:04:42.

Security Council communities, and indeed the camp David talks as well.

:04:43.:04:46.

To be clear, Mr Speaker, the solution cannot be imposed on the

:04:47.:04:52.

Israelis or the Palestinians but the international community has an

:04:53.:04:56.

important role to play. As has been said, the issue of settlements

:04:57.:05:01.

itself is not the only issue, but as one of a number, and it is

:05:02.:05:05.

important. The immediate removal of settlements will not immediately

:05:06.:05:09.

lead to peace, but trends on the ground, including violence,

:05:10.:05:13.

terrorism, incitement, as well as settlement expansion, are leading to

:05:14.:05:18.

a steady drift from peace and the prospect of a two state solution

:05:19.:05:25.

looking very much impossible. It is in no one's interest to see that

:05:26.:05:30.

drift. That is not in Israel's interest, or in the region's

:05:31.:05:35.

interest. Specifically on settlements, if we look at the map,

:05:36.:05:41.

there are around 600 people living in about 140 settlements built there

:05:42.:05:49.

since 1967. If you look at the map itself you can see that the West

:05:50.:05:59.

Bank is being divided into three. The area of anyone

:06:00.:06:04.

so the concept of a continuous Palestinian state is being eroded,

:06:05.:06:13.

and that it was a huge concern. And the West Bank now is a complex

:06:14.:06:18.

network of checkpoints, broken up, as has been said, and making it go

:06:19.:06:23.

difficult for people to move and enjoy in life. Since 2011, Israel

:06:24.:06:31.

has only approved three urban development lands in Area C. We

:06:32.:06:36.

encourage Israel to recognise that we want to see land transferred from

:06:37.:06:52.

it should come as no surprise that we voted in favour of this

:06:53.:06:58.

resolution in December, because we have long supported the two state

:06:59.:07:04.

solution and the notion of Israel as the Jewish homeland. We should also

:07:05.:07:09.

recognise what the resolution said. It proposed three important and

:07:10.:07:13.

balanced steps to support these in the region, including a call for

:07:14.:07:19.

both parties to create conditions for peace and for parties to -- that

:07:20.:07:32.

is based on historical resolutions, and going back to 1947. On the

:07:33.:07:38.

virtualisation bill as well that has been mentioned by other honourable

:07:39.:07:42.

members, there is a new dangers threshold crossed with that bill. I

:07:43.:07:45.

am pleased to see was very close, 60-52. The Attorney General has made

:07:46.:07:51.

it very clear he will not support this if it goes to appeal, which I

:07:52.:07:55.

think it would, and that is good because he sees this as

:07:56.:07:58.

constitutionally unviable and I hope that message is heard loud and

:07:59.:08:03.

clear. Running out of time. I will do my best to cover the remaining

:08:04.:08:07.

points. The recognition of Palestine, we need the Palestinians

:08:08.:08:09.

to do more to prevent the incitement of violence. President Abbas

:08:10.:08:14.

condemns certain aspects of it but we're still seeing schools and

:08:15.:08:17.

squares being named after terrorists. This is not the

:08:18.:08:20.

confidence building measures we need to see. There is no relationship

:08:21.:08:24.

with Thammasack Bouahom. These are the steps that will allow to move

:08:25.:08:28.

forward so there can be a recognition in the long term of the

:08:29.:08:31.

state of Palestine, but they are not there yet. The generation have given

:08:32.:08:41.

up on their own leadership, instead choosing a fast step to Paradise by

:08:42.:08:47.

killing an Israeli soldier. In conclusion, the British and

:08:48.:08:53.

continues to believe that the anyway is a two state solution. But there

:08:54.:08:54.

are a number of obstacles to peace we are committed, including the new

:08:55.:09:07.

US administration to promote an administration conducive to peace

:09:08.:09:12.

and we continue to support both parties to stake steps towards a

:09:13.:09:15.

negotiated settlement that brings peace, security and prosperity to

:09:16.:09:18.

the Israelis and indeed Palestinians, as well. Everyone has

:09:19.:09:24.

the right to call somewhere their home. Everyone has the right to be

:09:25.:09:28.

safe at home and no one should live in fear of their neighbours. We

:09:29.:09:33.

strongly believe the Middle East peace process is the best way to

:09:34.:09:36.

deliver these hopes of a question is whether we want a new generation of

:09:37.:09:41.

Israelis and Palestinians nurturing the seeds of hate or moving to a

:09:42.:09:44.

place of lasting friendship. Thank you. My fear is that a sufficient

:09:45.:09:53.

number of Israeli politicians have drawn precisely the opposite

:09:54.:09:55.

conclusion to John Kerry and believe that they can indeed build to the

:09:56.:10:01.

exclusion of a Palestinian state and yet withhold civil rights within

:10:02.:10:07.

Israel on the grounds that the Palestinians must seek those civil

:10:08.:10:11.

rights in Jordan or in some state bantustans. This is the 50th year of

:10:12.:10:19.

the occupation, so I am grateful to the bishops, fresh from their visit

:10:20.:10:23.

to the region, and their communiqu , in which they have drawn to my

:10:24.:10:32.

attention where they" -- where they quote Leviticus, "You will declare

:10:33.:10:37.

this 50th year to be sacred, and you will proclaim the liberation of all

:10:38.:10:45.

the countries's inhabitants". The question is on the order paper. I

:10:46.:10:50.

think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to the

:10:51.:10:56.

backbench debate of the football Association and move the motion

:10:57.:11:01.

Michael Buerk chair of the culture media and sport select committee. Mr

:11:02.:11:08.

Damian Collins. A previous minister said when addressing the subject of

:11:09.:11:12.

FA reform, we are making progress, albeit slowly. That was Denis Howell

:11:13.:11:18.

in 1968, speaking in a debate regarding the Chester report,

:11:19.:11:22.

commissioned in 1966 looking at the governance of football in England.

:11:23.:11:26.

Since that time and more recently there have been numerous reviews

:11:27.:11:30.

into the governments and necessary reform of the football Association.

:11:31.:11:36.

There was the Burns review in 2005, the court remedial and sport select

:11:37.:11:39.

committee published two football governments reports, one in 2011 and

:11:40.:11:44.

a further one in 2013, which set out a series of detailed measures, where

:11:45.:11:47.

we believe the governments of football in this country needed to

:11:48.:11:52.

dramatically improve. A previous sports minister, to Robinson, said

:11:53.:11:58.

he was going to prepare a bill to legislate to reform the focal

:11:59.:12:01.

Association if the FA refused to look deliver the necessary reforms.

:12:02.:12:05.

He referred to the FA and football in this country as being the worst

:12:06.:12:10.

governed sport in Britain. So the government is also consulting on its

:12:11.:12:14.

sports governance code that will apply to all national governing

:12:15.:12:18.

bodies of sport, and Mr Bate falls a few weeks before that review will be

:12:19.:12:22.

concluded at the talks between the government and the FA will be

:12:23.:12:25.

concluded. There maybe some people who will suggest this debate may be

:12:26.:12:29.

a few weeks early. Others may say it is 50 years too late. This is an

:12:30.:12:33.

issue we have been talking about for a very time. Some people have

:12:34.:12:39.

questioned as well is it the responsibility of Parliament to seek

:12:40.:12:42.

to legislate on a private matter like football and sport, but I think

:12:43.:12:45.

it is the right of the national parliament of this country to take a

:12:46.:12:50.

view on the penetration and welfare of our national game, as we have

:12:51.:12:53.

sought to do, and we do that because this is a matter that the people we

:12:54.:13:03.

represent care greatly about. I am most grateful to the honourable

:13:04.:13:06.

gentleman forgiving way, from the home of the English Premier League

:13:07.:13:10.

champions, Leicester, the city of diversity. Does he agree with me

:13:11.:13:18.

that Parliament sends out a message on diversity? A quarter of all

:13:19.:13:22.

professional footballers are black, however only 17 of the 92 top clubs

:13:23.:13:29.

have an ethnic minority person in a senior coaching role. So in a debate

:13:30.:13:33.

like this, even though the FA has committed 1.4 million four

:13:34.:13:36.

diversity, it is important we send out that message that diversity

:13:37.:13:40.

should be an important part of any reform. The honourable gentleman

:13:41.:13:44.

makes an important point, and I will come on to address the issue of

:13:45.:13:47.

diversity. There are people that would say if the FA was a more

:13:48.:13:53.

diverse body itself, that man truly reflected the modern world and game,

:13:54.:13:57.

then there would be more progress made on supporting diversity,

:13:58.:14:01.

including encouraging and supporting more former players from minority

:14:02.:14:07.

ethnic backgrounds into coaching and the courage more people from

:14:08.:14:10.

minority communities in the coaching through the coaching system and in

:14:11.:14:12.

the management of professional clubs and that is that we want to see. But

:14:13.:14:19.

our constituents who are supporters of their clubs make continuous

:14:20.:14:23.

representations about the effects of bad governance, teams they love, the

:14:24.:14:29.

teams that have been driven into administration through financial

:14:30.:14:35.

mismanagement. I am not going to rehearse all of the arguments in

:14:36.:14:39.

relationship to Coventry City football club but I think there

:14:40.:14:43.

should be some form of regulation, after all the football league is the

:14:44.:14:46.

only organisation I know that doesn't have certain rules in a way

:14:47.:14:50.

that affects Parliament. More importantly with the honourable

:14:51.:14:56.

gentleman not continue to find out exactly what has gone on? All sorts

:14:57.:15:10.

of problems in Coventry. He has been a champion to Coventry City football

:15:11.:15:13.

club and the people of Coventry with regard to the maladministration of

:15:14.:15:17.

their club. It is tragic that a club that was in the top-flight so long

:15:18.:15:20.

has been run into the ground in the way that it has, and football

:15:21.:15:22.

Bledman straighteners have stood back and watch that happen it cannot

:15:23.:15:32.

be allowed to continue to happen. This is certainly an issue that the

:15:33.:15:34.

committee has spoken about strongly in the past and may do so in the

:15:35.:15:40.

future too. We speak out for supporters who are in that position

:15:41.:15:43.

where their clubs are being run into the ground. We ourselves, as a

:15:44.:15:49.

parent, I see what some grassroots football facilities are like. We

:15:50.:15:51.

have representations about that as well, at this to -- this time of

:15:52.:15:56.

year too many girls and boys are playing on heavily waterlogged

:15:57.:16:01.

pitches where there are now changing facilities at all. They look of the

:16:02.:16:03.

great wealth within the game and they say how can that be true?

:16:04.:16:13.

In football that is a tiny amount of money. ?20 million would not buy you

:16:14.:16:20.

a quarter share in Paul Pogba, against a huge wealth that existing

:16:21.:16:23.

football, we all believe that football could do a lot more. We

:16:24.:16:27.

have seen financial scandals that have affected the game, as well,

:16:28.:16:31.

amid concern they have not been properly investigated. Lord Stevens

:16:32.:16:37.

led a review into the allegations of scandals and misappropriated

:16:38.:16:41.

payments in the football transfer market, 17 transfers he

:16:42.:16:43.

investigated, he couldn't sign off on to say there hadn't been any

:16:44.:16:46.

suspicious payments made in relation to them. One of those, some of those

:16:47.:16:52.

transfers involved a future England manager. People will say, why aren't

:16:53.:16:58.

they properly investigated? What is wrong with the administration of

:16:59.:17:01.

financial conduct and ethics within football? As a person of ethnicity

:17:02.:17:10.

and gender and not in the first flush of my youth, I'm reluctant to

:17:11.:17:16.

intervene in this area from an area which has been so widely criticised,

:17:17.:17:20.

but four years ago we had the football creditors rule, which

:17:21.:17:23.

seemed one of the rotten things at the heart of football, has there

:17:24.:17:31.

been any indication whatsoever that the FA are taking this issue

:17:32.:17:36.

seriously and even though they might be short-term pain, the long-term

:17:37.:17:40.

gain would be immeasurable? That is a very important point, and I

:17:41.:17:44.

believe now the creditors rule should have been abolished, it means

:17:45.:17:47.

that when a club is insolvent it has to pay all its creditors but the

:17:48.:17:52.

other creditors, the local community and businesses, they don't get any

:17:53.:17:54.

money, but I believe football should have abolished the role and the

:17:55.:17:59.

current chairman of the FA said there was no moral argument that

:18:00.:18:02.

could be made in favour of the creditors rule but nevertheless.

:18:03.:18:06.

Football has made progress in putting a greater obligation on

:18:07.:18:10.

clubs to settle non-football creditors on much better terms than

:18:11.:18:13.

was the case a few years ago, but I welcome that and I would like them

:18:14.:18:17.

to go further than they have done. And of course, football receives as

:18:18.:18:23.

other sports do, considerable amount of funding from the public purse and

:18:24.:18:27.

there's another reason why we are right to take an interest in how

:18:28.:18:30.

public money is being spent on our national game. In the brief time I

:18:31.:18:37.

have I want to set out how I believe and why the FA needs to be reformed,

:18:38.:18:42.

the FA Council, the parliament of football, that should represent

:18:43.:18:45.

football across the community, is not representative of the modern

:18:46.:18:51.

society today. Of 122 members of the Council, 92 of those members are

:18:52.:18:54.

over the age of 60, 12 of them are over the age of 80 and there are

:18:55.:18:58.

eight women, and there are four people from minority ethnic

:18:59.:19:03.

backgrounds. There are more men over 80 than there are women on the FA

:19:04.:19:08.

Council and that is not sustainable and does not reflect modern society.

:19:09.:19:13.

Whilst there are people on the FA Council that do understand the need

:19:14.:19:15.

for change, there are some that don't. Barry Taylor in his letter,

:19:16.:19:22.

he is the life vice president of the FA, and the vice president of

:19:23.:19:25.

Barnsley, he sent a letter to his colleagues on the council and easily

:19:26.:19:29.

would be great to have women on the council, but not just for its own

:19:30.:19:33.

safe. I don't think he has any series commitment to the idea of

:19:34.:19:37.

more women are or even understands why it is necessary -- serious

:19:38.:19:43.

commitment to the idea of more women or even. The FA board itself needs

:19:44.:19:49.

to be stronger and more independent and more executive body. There is

:19:50.:19:55.

only one woman member and there are only two independent directors. The

:19:56.:20:01.

last three chairman of the FA, have written to the select committee

:20:02.:20:04.

saying that reform is necessary to strengthen the board, to have a

:20:05.:20:08.

balance of power held by the independent directors on the board,

:20:09.:20:13.

and this was a recommendation of the culture media and select committee's

:20:14.:20:17.

report, as well, that is needed to give the FA the power to resist

:20:18.:20:21.

powerful forces and vested interests in the game, especially the power

:20:22.:20:25.

and strength of the Premier League. Their job is to promote its

:20:26.:20:28.

competition and it does so brilliantly around the world but it

:20:29.:20:31.

certainly enormous amount of influence around football because of

:20:32.:20:35.

the vast amount of money it raises and funds back into the game.

:20:36.:20:39.

Therefore we need a strong Premier League, but we need a strong

:20:40.:20:44.

national governing body that is ultimately responsible for many of

:20:45.:20:46.

the sporting an ethical decisions that football has to take. He is

:20:47.:20:53.

making a really important but, it is not just about who sits on what

:20:54.:20:56.

bores, but where the money is and the power it exercises. Is there

:20:57.:21:02.

room for a further look on the power and money of the Primeira Liga and

:21:03.:21:05.

what governments changes could be brought in to get more control over

:21:06.:21:08.

that for the good of the game as a whole? -- Premier League. The FA

:21:09.:21:16.

board has been recommended to have a 6-4 ratio over independent directors

:21:17.:21:19.

save their voice is stronger than any other component part including

:21:20.:21:22.

the Premier League and I think that is a necessary reform. I could speak

:21:23.:21:27.

for longer but I want other members to have the chance to make their

:21:28.:21:32.

speeches. It is necessary to reform the structure of the FA board to

:21:33.:21:35.

make the FA more independent and to give it the power to act we have

:21:36.:21:39.

been calling this for hours. We believe now that legislation is the

:21:40.:21:44.

only way in which this can be delivered, that was the

:21:45.:21:46.

recommendation of the last three chairman of the FA to the select

:21:47.:21:51.

committee. They said turkeys won't vote for Christmas and they have to

:21:52.:21:54.

have external pressure and action through legislation to achieve it.

:21:55.:21:58.

What I'm asking, if the gap is not is excess on getting reform from the

:21:59.:22:04.

FA, a bill is prepared to be introduced to deliver the reform

:22:05.:22:12.

they badly need -- if the bill is not successful in getting reform

:22:13.:22:18.

from the FA. In today's debate, one of the members from Bradford has

:22:19.:22:26.

been working to save one of our most historical sporting institutions,

:22:27.:22:31.

Bradford Bulls Rugby football league club, and I'm pleased after many

:22:32.:22:36.

months that they have risen a new from Administration and liquidation

:22:37.:22:39.

and I'm sure the House will join me in wishing the club well under its

:22:40.:22:44.

new ownership. The Bradford Bulls is not a member of the FA, but another

:22:45.:22:47.

governing body, the Rugby football league. I believe most members would

:22:48.:22:54.

agree that as a country we faced not only a crisis of governance in

:22:55.:22:57.

football, but also across many of our sports. Much of what has been

:22:58.:23:02.

said in this chamber and will be said in this chamber is relevant not

:23:03.:23:05.

just a football but right across sport. Through the events of recent

:23:06.:23:09.

months and my consistency, I've not much about governance and the role

:23:10.:23:13.

of governing bodies and much about the weaknesses in the roles and

:23:14.:23:16.

regulations in British sporting life and stop Bradford is home to

:23:17.:23:21.

Bradford city and Bradford park Avenue, the latter of which is my

:23:22.:23:25.

constituency, and I dared to suggest that these clubs are good role

:23:26.:23:28.

models but they are the sort of clubs the FA should be encouraging

:23:29.:23:33.

others to emigrate. Bradford city has had difficulties over the years

:23:34.:23:39.

-- others to emulate. The club knows about entering administration, they

:23:40.:23:42.

have learned the hard way, as so many clubs have done. Today the club

:23:43.:23:47.

operates within its means and financial security is the foundation

:23:48.:23:50.

for their ambition. Not the first thing to be sacrificed in the search

:23:51.:23:56.

for glory. In addition they maintain a policy of financial openness with

:23:57.:23:59.

their supporters and they are right to do so. It strengthens the bond

:24:00.:24:03.

between the club and their fans and the local community and make sure

:24:04.:24:06.

that everyone feels part of the common endeavour. Bradford city has

:24:07.:24:11.

been rewarded with increase in Port, and Bradford park avenue in the

:24:12.:24:15.

non-league have moved from a private ownership model to a community

:24:16.:24:21.

model. -- rewarded with increased support. I'm looking forward to

:24:22.:24:26.

becoming a member of their community football club at half-time. There

:24:27.:24:30.

are many objectives that club members commit to and what I'm

:24:31.:24:34.

struck by is the commitment to provide sporting facilities and

:24:35.:24:37.

opportunities to everyone. I hope the FA will support and applaud

:24:38.:24:41.

clubs at this level, to develop the sort of approach Bradford park

:24:42.:24:44.

avenue is taking to engage with their local communities. This type

:24:45.:24:49.

of approach is strongly reflected in the plans they present to the

:24:50.:24:53.

government, and that is so, I will be heartened by the FA, and as a

:24:54.:24:58.

country we deserve strong governance in all of our sports and today's

:24:59.:25:02.

debate will identify a raft of failings in the governance of the

:25:03.:25:07.

FA. What is most shocking is my view is not that the governance of the FA

:25:08.:25:10.

is in need of reform, that is a subtle point, but that the

:25:11.:25:16.

leadership of the FA has been so grossly ineffective in bringing

:25:17.:25:21.

forward these reforms in the face of criticism, at best they dragging

:25:22.:25:27.

their feet, at worst they are wilfully failing to act. As a

:25:28.:25:34.

governing body of a major British sport the FA is arguably above all

:25:35.:25:37.

else a public institution, that is true and in my mind, although they

:25:38.:25:43.

are a private registered company, is a public in situ sheen, they receive

:25:44.:25:48.

public funding -- as a public institution. It is only right that

:25:49.:25:56.

we hold them to high standards. Strong accountability is critical,

:25:57.:25:59.

not only for the sake of strong governance, but because the sport 's

:26:00.:26:04.

governing body has an important role in forcing rules. I must admit that

:26:05.:26:12.

sport has to be competitive on the field and off, in the search for

:26:13.:26:19.

success, and the lines can often become blurred. Can I say what a

:26:20.:26:24.

pleasure it is to follow the member for Bradford South. In a previous

:26:25.:26:30.

life I reported on both Bradford city and their run in the inter-Toto

:26:31.:26:36.

cup, we had a trip to see Zenit St Petersburg and also the Bradford

:26:37.:26:39.

Bulls in their successful time with Grand Final victories and world club

:26:40.:26:42.

challenge is an Challenge Cup victories. -- and. I welcome her

:26:43.:26:52.

passion. I refer to my entry and I also must declare that as I

:26:53.:26:55.

Huddersfield Town fan I'm delighted that my team is still in the FA Cup

:26:56.:27:03.

but perplexed that the television companies have not picked our

:27:04.:27:06.

mouthwatering fifth round match at home to Manchester City for live

:27:07.:27:11.

broadcast will stop maybe they will cover us in the quarterfinals when

:27:12.:27:17.

we might be playing Sutton United. I must also put on record my thanks to

:27:18.:27:20.

the FA's delivery partner the football foundation who have

:27:21.:27:26.

invested almost ?600,000 worth of grants in my column Valley

:27:27.:27:32.

constituency. --: Valley. Including money for Hepworth United for a new

:27:33.:27:36.

changing pavilion and a grant of ?52,000 for a cricket club and a

:27:37.:27:41.

junior football club for the refer Vishnu and extension of existing

:27:42.:27:46.

changing pavilion facilities -- for the refurbishment. I've supported

:27:47.:27:52.

both of those community projects. As we've heard, the chairman has

:27:53.:27:58.

covered much of the ground in this debate, but I want to focus on the

:27:59.:28:03.

phone. I'm lucky to support a club with a wonderful owner who is a

:28:04.:28:06.

genuine fan -- I want to focus on the fans. He has brought in many

:28:07.:28:11.

initiatives including season tickets for just ?179 and on Boxing Day, to

:28:12.:28:18.

parents and two kids could see Huddersfield Town play for just ?12.

:28:19.:28:25.

And we were victorious, as well. The town foundation provides healthy

:28:26.:28:28.

breakfast clubs at schools and the keep it up campaign organisers bike

:28:29.:28:35.

rides which have raised over ?1 million for the Yorkshire ambulance

:28:36.:28:39.

and the town Academy, but not all fans are so lucky. Blackball, black

:28:40.:28:44.

burn, commentary, they will testify to that -- Blackpool, Blackburn.

:28:45.:28:47.

Commentary. There should be more representation

:28:48.:28:54.

from supporters groups on the FA Council? Absolutely. You perhaps

:28:55.:29:06.

have read my next comment. There should be a minimum of five

:29:07.:29:10.

supporters representatives of the FA Council and more crucially a

:29:11.:29:12.

supporter representative on the board itself. It might just be,

:29:13.:29:17.

hopefully, that that supporter representation could then help

:29:18.:29:22.

increase the diversity of the top decision-making levels in English

:29:23.:29:29.

rock. -- English football. The committee has been looking at this

:29:30.:29:32.

issue of FA governments for many years now, and I welcome Greg Clark

:29:33.:29:37.

with some of his early comments, he took over as chairman of the FA last

:29:38.:29:40.

August, following his successful six-year spell at the football

:29:41.:29:46.

league. The committee report of 2011 highlighted key concerns which over

:29:47.:29:53.

the years have got worse. Most are degree the disproportionate

:29:54.:29:56.

influence exerted by the Premier League over the FA because of its

:29:57.:30:00.

wealth. The increased lack of clarity over the ownership of clubs,

:30:01.:30:04.

and as I just said, the lack of progress in getting supporters more

:30:05.:30:07.

involved in the influence in of their clubs and as has been said,

:30:08.:30:12.

from the opposition benches, the lack of women and other

:30:13.:30:19.

representations. In coaching roles. As well. I have been involved in a

:30:20.:30:26.

small FA committee which has been working at St George's Park on

:30:27.:30:30.

increasing the AME representation in football clubs, coaching, but much

:30:31.:30:39.

more needs to be done. I want a successful England team, as well and

:30:40.:30:42.

I want it to give us the feel-good factor that the Olympics and

:30:43.:30:43.

Paralympics has given us. Just like the lottery millions have

:30:44.:30:52.

been well distributed to nurture talent and medal success, it is

:30:53.:30:55.

important the FA should be to do the same with some of the Premier League

:30:56.:31:01.

billions to do the same in football. Club ownership, kick-off times,

:31:02.:31:08.

disabled access, tackling homophobia are all issues that need to be

:31:09.:31:11.

addressed by reformed FA, and with more supported input. I hope this

:31:12.:31:18.

debate will show that we are Susan about reform, the fans are is time

:31:19.:31:27.

for the FA exec board and the council to crack on and these

:31:28.:31:38.

reforms. I congratulate... The honourable member for Folkestone and

:31:39.:31:43.

the highs on securing this debate and I welcome this opportunity to

:31:44.:31:55.

try and influence the Minister. I except that the FA needs to be

:31:56.:32:01.

reformed. It has proven itself to be extraordinarily weak at times, and

:32:02.:32:06.

as the letter from the previous three chairman and the two chief

:32:07.:32:12.

execs of the FA has said, unable to wield any power over the influence

:32:13.:32:15.

of the Premier League and the football league, but we have to be

:32:16.:32:18.

clear about what we are trying to achieve here, because many of the

:32:19.:32:21.

problems we are highlighting not caused by the unwieldy construction

:32:22.:32:29.

of the council, by the really weak and feeble nature of the Premier

:32:30.:32:33.

League. What we want them to achieve? Per head of population we

:32:34.:32:42.

have one qualified football coach for every 42,000 population. In a

:32:43.:32:48.

country like Germany once every 20 2000. In terms of the facilities we

:32:49.:33:02.

have, we have, in terms of coaches, one per population of 38,000, in

:33:03.:33:07.

Germany it is one per 11,000, in Spain one per 3000. In the year

:33:08.:33:12.

since 1992 when the Premier League came into being, Germany has won the

:33:13.:33:17.

European Championships and the World Cup and Spain has won the World Cup

:33:18.:33:21.

and the European Championships twice and it is not the council that is at

:33:22.:33:26.

fault in that lack of investment. The enormous wealth that has come

:33:27.:33:30.

into this country through the Premier League has not been

:33:31.:33:33.

reflected in investment in grassroots football and developing

:33:34.:33:37.

coaches and the facilities that will develop our game. So when we are

:33:38.:33:44.

looking at reform of the FA, we have to be clear what we want to achieve.

:33:45.:33:49.

It is not acceptable to have an ancient body like the FA council

:33:50.:33:53.

that has ripped sensitives from the army and Cambridge University and

:33:54.:33:58.

independent schools and Oxford University and the air force and the

:33:59.:34:02.

Royal Navy. The historic construction of this organisation

:34:03.:34:07.

clearly needs reform. I favour the recommendations that have come from

:34:08.:34:10.

the fullbore supporters Federation, and I think we should have fans reps

:34:11.:34:16.

on the board of the FA. It is certainly time, the time has come

:34:17.:34:20.

for fans reps -- reps to be on the boards of the book clubs. They are

:34:21.:34:24.

an early warning system of the problems that exist in our game and

:34:25.:34:28.

it is the fans that we turn to when we are looking to save clubs that

:34:29.:34:32.

fall into difficulties. They are of the communities from which those

:34:33.:34:35.

clubs have sprung in the first place, so we have to be absolutely

:34:36.:34:41.

clear, who is it we are seeking to in power here, what are the problems

:34:42.:34:47.

we are seeking to solve, and by just saying any reconstruction of the FA

:34:48.:34:51.

is going to be the right thing, I think, could be wrong. Because the

:34:52.:34:55.

FA board, as it is constructive at the moment, clearly is too week to

:34:56.:35:00.

deal with the English football league and the Premier League. It

:35:01.:35:04.

was the people on the council that stood up to clubs that wanted to

:35:05.:35:09.

change their colours against the will of the fans. It stood up to

:35:10.:35:14.

clubs that wanted to move grounds and change the names of grounds. It

:35:15.:35:18.

is those people, yes I will give way to my honourable friend. I am

:35:19.:35:27.

grateful to my honourable friend the giving way. He is making a really

:35:28.:35:34.

powerful case. I think the point my honourable friend from Sheffield

:35:35.:35:37.

made earlier that although I accept it is not just a question of

:35:38.:35:43.

structure, it certainly is a question of power, and empowering

:35:44.:35:46.

fans to have some saying the situation has to be part of way

:35:47.:35:52.

forward? Absolutely. Many fans would like the FA to have a number of

:35:53.:35:57.

home-grown players. It is woefully inadequate. We have far too many of

:35:58.:36:02.

these put Oporto players imported on the fact -- these pret a porter

:36:03.:36:10.

players. Rather than develop and take a chance on a youngster, they

:36:11.:36:14.

buy someone off-the-peg and bring them in and we don't oppose the

:36:15.:36:17.

rules that should be implied, in terms of how those players

:36:18.:36:20.

contribute and add to this game. Many fans would like to see an FA

:36:21.:36:27.

that can deal with issues like that. I don't see that just changing the

:36:28.:36:32.

council is going to change that. I do support there should be more

:36:33.:36:35.

independence on the board but my concern about them and I will finish

:36:36.:36:40.

on this point, right across sport there is a small gene pool of people

:36:41.:36:45.

who move about different sports who become involved in governing bodies.

:36:46.:36:50.

I do think we need to look beyond that group of people for some real

:36:51.:36:54.

independence at the top of the game, and other sports as well, but

:36:55.:37:02.

particularly at the top of football. Inform and it is, let me be clear at

:37:03.:37:05.

the outset, I want the FA to succeed and for them to be held up as an

:37:06.:37:10.

exemplary governments across this country and be on. I am not saying

:37:11.:37:14.

everything the FA does is wrong and they do many good things and I will

:37:15.:37:18.

touch on those. The wording of the motion today is strong and robust

:37:19.:37:22.

and I believe it challenges the FA in the strongest terms. But it in

:37:23.:37:26.

many ways echoes the frustrations felt by football fans have written

:37:27.:37:31.

to me and colleagues both in the High Peak and beyond. I was going to

:37:32.:37:35.

talk at Grove -- great length about my history as a football supporter

:37:36.:37:37.

but we haven't got time, I'm too old. As a member of the culture

:37:38.:37:43.

media and sport select committee I too was a recipient of the letter

:37:44.:37:47.

from three FA chairman, and ex-executive and a previous director

:37:48.:37:52.

and chairman, in which they collectively delivered a withering

:37:53.:37:56.

review of the FA and its inability to change its governance. These are

:37:57.:37:58.

men who have worked within the FA and it seems they have become

:37:59.:38:03.

disillusioned and frustrated I have just walked away. In their words,

:38:04.:38:08.

the FA's decision-making structure has become arcane and, looted,

:38:09.:38:12.

leading to a lack of clarity about the role and purposes of these

:38:13.:38:17.

structures. They also claim those examples of short-term is, vested

:38:18.:38:22.

interest in veils and -- veiled and unveiled references to the FA's

:38:23.:38:24.

relationship with the Premier League. The letter reeks of

:38:25.:38:28.

frustration and all of the senior figures ability to get the FA to

:38:29.:38:36.

reform. During the time when the sportsman is to herself as a member

:38:37.:38:40.

both in 2011 and 2013 concluded that the FA did need reform, yet it has

:38:41.:38:45.

not been done. So I think it is right we have tabled this for debate

:38:46.:38:49.

and I pay tribute to my honourable friend the chairman of the select

:38:50.:38:52.

committee for leading this and as the select committee putting this

:38:53.:38:57.

board. I won't deny that the FA do some good work, some good community

:38:58.:39:01.

work through the football foundation and in my constituency we have

:39:02.:39:04.

benefited from significant funds across the High Peak, so I

:39:05.:39:12.

acknowledge that. They also acknowledge there is need for reform

:39:13.:39:15.

and government and the present chairman Greg Clark acknowledges

:39:16.:39:19.

this in his statement published on Tuesday evening. I respect and have

:39:20.:39:23.

a lot of faith in Mr Clark. He is combative in his defence of the FA

:39:24.:39:27.

and I don't blame him for that. He says they have a set of proposals,

:39:28.:39:31.

and I would be interested to hear from her in her response what she is

:39:32.:39:36.

looking for. As a firm football supporter, I hope that Mr Clarke can

:39:37.:39:39.

resolve this matter without us having to get too heavily involved.

:39:40.:39:44.

I would urge to do so and so quickly. Football is the people's

:39:45.:39:50.

game, in recent years it has had an influx of cash, players earning eye

:39:51.:39:52.

watering amounts of money but it is still a game with 22 men were indeed

:39:53.:39:58.

women cooking a football around and try to get into the opposition's

:39:59.:40:01.

net. The FA is the organisation that oversees this. It has all of this

:40:02.:40:06.

growth we have seen in the football family to deal with. On the 20th of

:40:07.:40:13.

this month they will be the 25th anniversary of the finding of the

:40:14.:40:21.

Premier League. -- the founding. So the game is in seemingly rude health

:40:22.:40:25.

but why is it being called into question today? Very quickly I think

:40:26.:40:30.

the support for the lower league, Glossop North end in my constituency

:40:31.:40:35.

have been in two FA vase final is on 2009 and 2015. In 2015 they could

:40:36.:40:38.

not sell the tickets are wrecked and get a commission like they did in

:40:39.:40:44.

2009, it was done by the FA. Glossop North end got less money. The gates

:40:45.:40:51.

were less because of the FA. Sam Allardyce, one game, walks away with

:40:52.:40:55.

allegedly around ?1 million, it is destroying people's faith in

:40:56.:40:59.

football. The FA are the governing body, they need to address this

:41:00.:41:07.

quickly. For clubs are more than just private assets, those are the

:41:08.:41:11.

words of the vote football campaign and have been echoed by many

:41:12.:41:17.

Blackpool supporters. Blackpool has always had a proud history, from the

:41:18.:41:24.

clubs 1953 FA Cup final with Stanley Matthews, the Jimmy Arfield,

:41:25.:41:30.

recognised internationally for his ability as a footballer and

:41:31.:41:34.

commentator, and our Cinderella story of promotion to the

:41:35.:41:37.

premiership in 2010, if very proud moment when I was privileged with

:41:38.:41:40.

tens of thousands of people on the prompt a welcome home that team, but

:41:41.:41:46.

also sadly over the last four years, the strife between the club's fans

:41:47.:41:50.

and owners is only too well a matter of knowledge, and that has was

:41:51.:41:55.

altered in thousands of people looking to boycott Bloomfield Road

:41:56.:41:58.

in protest of the clubs running. That is why I backed the bill that

:41:59.:42:02.

my horrible friend, the member for Eltham, introduced which would have

:42:03.:42:06.

given accredited groups such as the Blackpool supporters trust greater

:42:07.:42:09.

powers and influence in how their club is run. It is a melancholy set

:42:10.:42:13.

of circumstances but not simply for Blackpool but elsewhere, and

:42:14.:42:17.

particularly here in the north-west, the issues around Blackburn and some

:42:18.:42:22.

would argue Bolton, that is why I signed with other members from the

:42:23.:42:27.

Northwest on this. It is interesting to note what the Blackpool

:42:28.:42:34.

supporters club have said on this about the governance issues.

:42:35.:42:46.

I want to just quote what the chair of the supporters trust has said,

:42:47.:42:56.

that the FA was supposed to be the overarching guardian of the

:42:57.:42:59.

Association of football game in this country, but too often it has become

:43:00.:43:03.

simply a money spinning business venture. If this debate can take

:43:04.:43:07.

this forward, serious attention can be focused on reform, a fairer

:43:08.:43:10.

representation of supporters right and the way that clubs are run and a

:43:11.:43:17.

more stringent set of rules for owners and electors. That is why I

:43:18.:43:20.

also support the plans to have supporter representation on the

:43:21.:43:23.

executive board but also on the council. These are issues that

:43:24.:43:30.

ordinary football fans in Blackpool. The about, just a quote from two of

:43:31.:43:34.

the levels I have had from Fiona Cook, they say they are not just

:43:35.:43:38.

businesses like any other, but company or law makes no such

:43:39.:43:40.

distinction and the FA rules no longer do either -- to have the

:43:41.:43:45.

letters. And from my constituent Steve Bull and who has said that I

:43:46.:43:50.

strongly believe clubs should be run in the best interests of the

:43:51.:43:55.

community. The FA however has committed ?260 million in grassroots

:43:56.:43:58.

football over a four-year period, but is that really enough and will

:43:59.:44:03.

it get the grassroots that we need? Supporters have nothing but the game

:44:04.:44:07.

's health at heart but they are dramatically underrepresented within

:44:08.:44:10.

the FA board, as we have heard. And as the football supporters

:44:11.:44:13.

Association have said, the governance, if it is to be Chouly

:44:14.:44:18.

reflective, needs to value the role of consumers and not other less

:44:19.:44:22.

traditional producers. By now the sports minister is anxious to move,

:44:23.:44:27.

and frustrated by a lack of progress and I have talked to her about the

:44:28.:44:30.

particular problems of Blackpool FC and the chasm that has opened

:44:31.:44:34.

between the owners of the fans and how this illustrates in a stark way

:44:35.:44:37.

why there needs to be a much more proactive set of government and she

:44:38.:44:40.

responded with a set of proposals but they are not far-reaching

:44:41.:44:45.

enough, not least in their failure to contemplate government action. So

:44:46.:44:49.

I have to ask why it has taken the government almost six years to act.

:44:50.:44:53.

The letter from the five FA executive sums it up, and that is

:44:54.:44:57.

why it is reasonable to think over the chairman of the DC MS committee,

:44:58.:45:02.

the prospect of hanging concentrates the mind wonderfully. I wish the new

:45:03.:45:07.

Chief Executive well in his attempts to prove the committee wrong but

:45:08.:45:10.

there will be no harm to press this motion in the process. Three minutes

:45:11.:45:17.

each from now on. A foreign observer could be forgiven for looking at

:45:18.:45:19.

football in this country and wondering whether it can really be

:45:20.:45:23.

the case that the sport is being poorly governed. After all we have

:45:24.:45:28.

the most watched, admired and financially lucrative top division

:45:29.:45:31.

in world football with attendance of over 90% every week at Premier

:45:32.:45:36.

League stadiums. The FA performs great work across the country,

:45:37.:45:40.

investing more than six to ?5 million in grassroots football each

:45:41.:45:42.

year and of course my constituency is one of many that benefits.

:45:43.:45:50.

We should act not the work that the new chairman is doing, he is given

:45:51.:45:55.

encouraging signals regarding the direction he would like to take the

:45:56.:45:59.

FA in coming years. The problem is we've heard again at the game from

:46:00.:46:02.

the FA that they recognise the division sees -- deficiencies and

:46:03.:46:09.

savages, and intend to change, but have been talking about this change

:46:10.:46:13.

for 40 years. Change has not come and time is running out. I get the

:46:14.:46:20.

feeling that Greg Clark's hands are tied. The culture media and sport

:46:21.:46:26.

select committee has produced reports in 2011 and 2013 on football

:46:27.:46:32.

governance, finance and has highlighted the problems with

:46:33.:46:38.

diversity. You are mentioning the good aspects of the FA, and it is

:46:39.:46:42.

easy to criticise, but every day of the week there are things like the

:46:43.:46:47.

fixtures committee, the disciplinary committee, a vast amount of tedious

:46:48.:46:50.

boring administrative work they undertake and without that none of

:46:51.:46:54.

us would be able to enjoy the game that we love. Indeed. The tone we

:46:55.:47:00.

are getting is that we don't want to hinder the progress of football and

:47:01.:47:02.

we want to help, so I agree with that. A great deal of work is done.

:47:03.:47:09.

On the subject of diversity, some commentators have said that it is a

:47:10.:47:13.

bit rich of a pale Male and stale select committee to be lecturing

:47:14.:47:17.

another organisation about diversity and it is true there are more

:47:18.:47:22.

gentleman called Niger men on the -- called Nigel on the committee than

:47:23.:47:31.

women. We deal with a female PBS who reports into a female sports

:47:32.:47:36.

minister who reports to a female Secretary of State who reports to a

:47:37.:47:40.

female Prime Minister. The last two >> STUDIO:

:47:41.:47:46.

From my own perspective, the main purpose of this motion today is it

:47:47.:47:55.

is a warning shot across the warning -- across the boughs of the FA. The

:47:56.:48:00.

fact we're having this debate will hopefully communicate in no

:48:01.:48:04.

uncertain terms just how important the issue is to and our constituents

:48:05.:48:09.

and instil a sense of urgency within the FA board and the council. I'm

:48:10.:48:14.

well aware that the FA is coming up with its own proposals for reform

:48:15.:48:17.

and I look forward to seeing them. My intention is to not hinder the

:48:18.:48:24.

FA's reform agenda, but to help. As a Tory MP have no great enthusiasm

:48:25.:48:28.

for government getting involved in anything unless it absolutely has

:48:29.:48:34.

to. Let us be clear, if we have to intervene, we will, and talk without

:48:35.:48:42.

action is no longer an option. Private companies running 16 - 18

:48:43.:48:48.

football and sports academies funded by the DfEE, there is a company in

:48:49.:48:54.

my area, which is behind a football academy in Worksop and we were told,

:48:55.:48:59.

the public was told it was run by Doncaster college, when it collapsed

:49:00.:49:05.

we found it was run by West Anglia college 100 miles away, and they

:49:06.:49:09.

claim the operation took place for five months in Nottingham. I can

:49:10.:49:14.

find no evidence that anyone ever went to Nottingham for five months

:49:15.:49:19.

and that involves 23 different students, but I do know that zero

:49:20.:49:24.

qualified in English, zero qualified in maths and the FA safeguarding

:49:25.:49:28.

policies in schools were being broken. I'm offering to the FA that

:49:29.:49:34.

we in my area with the local authority and with the schools and

:49:35.:49:38.

the local FA, we can provide best practice in going forward. In

:49:39.:49:44.

safeguarding in football. Because the systems at the moment at the

:49:45.:49:49.

grassroots are shambolic. I must be overhauled. But a word of defence in

:49:50.:49:58.

relation to the FA, they took an action -- they took action. It is

:49:59.:50:04.

not the FA who are responsible for four but clubs not employing black

:50:05.:50:11.

and Asian coaches it is the premier clubs and the other clubs who are

:50:12.:50:17.

failing to do that. The FA have been training people and they have led to

:50:18.:50:20.

the development of women's football and the power and insidious power of

:50:21.:50:25.

the Premier League and the other professional clubs in running the FA

:50:26.:50:29.

for their own purpose, is a fundamental weakness. Do not forget

:50:30.:50:36.

those people, who draw up the fixtures that means there are more

:50:37.:50:45.

people playing football in school than any other part of Britain. If

:50:46.:50:53.

we had simply the police taxpayer bill for one Premier League fixture

:50:54.:50:59.

of major consequence put into facilities in my area, the six other

:51:00.:51:03.

people that watch Redford against Worksop last Saturday at where

:51:04.:51:10.

neither club and get investment to allow facilities to development,

:51:11.:51:16.

give us the chance to do that. These problems run deeper in football

:51:17.:51:20.

where the money runs very thick. With safeguarding, use the money as

:51:21.:51:27.

leveraged, use the money on diversity and bringing women and

:51:28.:51:32.

girls into football, we are delivering the youths, give us the

:51:33.:51:36.

chance to deliver the sport. That is the real challenge for the FA. The

:51:37.:51:41.

structure is outdated, of course, but let's have some of the money

:51:42.:51:44.

from the professional game into the grassroots. I grew up in the shadow

:51:45.:51:52.

of Wembley Stadium and the twin towers. I followed by local club and

:51:53.:51:58.

I ran a Sunday football team and of course I'm a fanatical football fan

:51:59.:52:03.

and my father helped set up much of the day, so I can speak as a true

:52:04.:52:08.

football fanatic, season ticket holder home and away of my favourite

:52:09.:52:15.

team. The Verratti is, in this country, football is in the hands of

:52:16.:52:21.

the Premier League -- reality is. They have the power and the finance

:52:22.:52:26.

and they have sold out to the TV companies who now dictate when games

:52:27.:52:29.

are played and which days they are played and what time they kick-off

:52:30.:52:32.

and of course huge buzz of money coming in as a result. -- huge

:52:33.:52:39.

amounts. The grassroots football across this country at the same time

:52:40.:52:42.

is not seeing that money transferred down to it. Because Premier League

:52:43.:52:47.

clubs are keeping the money to themselves and what we have is the

:52:48.:52:52.

FA not doing its job representing what I would say is grassroots

:52:53.:52:55.

football and controlling the game and making sure that the money flows

:52:56.:53:00.

from the top to the bottom, so we can develop the young players, male

:53:01.:53:05.

or female, right across this country, that we all want to see

:53:06.:53:08.

playing the game, the beautiful game, in the right way. The reality

:53:09.:53:16.

is, without that change from what we face is stagnation in our national

:53:17.:53:22.

game and our inability to actually win as an England football team, to

:53:23.:53:26.

win trophies, and to see the quality of football we would like to see.

:53:27.:53:31.

What we then have at the moment, and I know, growing up at Wembley,

:53:32.:53:38.

Wembley Stadium has always been the National Stadium, it is the shrine

:53:39.:53:42.

to which we go for FA Cup finals, the cup finals, internationals and

:53:43.:53:48.

other events, but it is now being transformed, not only for Tottenham

:53:49.:53:52.

to play their for a year over Chelsea to play there for three

:53:53.:53:56.

years for their home matches. That is wrong because it is abusing our

:53:57.:54:01.

national stadium. It should be kept for those all-important matches that

:54:02.:54:05.

fans want to come and see. If it is turned into a stadium which clubs

:54:06.:54:10.

will use potentially for four years or longer, I think that is an abuse

:54:11.:54:13.

of our national stadium and we should not be allowing it. However,

:54:14.:54:19.

we have the FA who was in charge of the national stadium, who seem to be

:54:20.:54:24.

amateurs in dealing with the high finance in football, and we should

:54:25.:54:30.

encourage the professionalism to come in to the FA and reform the FA

:54:31.:54:34.

so we don't have that position growing ever stronger. I will sit

:54:35.:54:41.

down on this. I think it's important that the FA understands that if it

:54:42.:54:44.

doesn't transform itself, government action is going to be required. The

:54:45.:54:55.

Parliamentary football club grip, we both get administered support from

:54:56.:54:57.

the FA, it is important to put that on the record -- group. In 2005 we

:54:58.:55:04.

have the Billings report and I met Lord Burns after that report. I have

:55:05.:55:10.

also spoken to Richard cable, because the report was commissioned

:55:11.:55:12.

jointly by the government and the FA. The tragedy is that over the

:55:13.:55:18.

years it has taken a long time to do very little. The FA Council is

:55:19.:55:27.

virtually on reformed from when Lord Burns spoke about it. Some progress

:55:28.:55:32.

has been made, but more needs to be done in that regard and I think the

:55:33.:55:36.

comments about having a fans representative on the board is

:55:37.:55:38.

something that ought to be taken seriously. The problem with the FA

:55:39.:55:44.

board, it doesn't run football as a whole, there is so much power

:55:45.:55:47.

because of the money involved from the Premier League and we still have

:55:48.:55:50.

the professional game board which has powers which are taken away from

:55:51.:55:55.

the FA board as a whole, and if we're going to have a reformed FA

:55:56.:55:59.

has to be responsible for the whole of football and it has to be the

:56:00.:56:05.

governing body for every aspect of the game. I don't want to belittle

:56:06.:56:10.

the Premier League, that is a global brand, it has done some great

:56:11.:56:15.

things, ?30 maximum charge for way fans, but in the end, you look at a

:56:16.:56:23.

situation where an ordinarily Premier League player can earn more

:56:24.:56:29.

in two months than Sheffield City Council can spend on local football

:56:30.:56:35.

pitches in the year. If we're going to have that reformed board, it

:56:36.:56:38.

needs to divert more money into grassroots football and stopped the

:56:39.:56:45.

cliff edge between the Premier League and the English football

:56:46.:56:49.

league. The FA have done well with the women's game and it has tackled

:56:50.:56:53.

racism. It needs to do more with homophobia but it has started. We

:56:54.:57:00.

had Graeme Le Saux come to speak about tackling homophobia, they are

:57:01.:57:04.

starting to address the issue of coaches from all diverse

:57:05.:57:11.

backgrounds. In Sheffield we have the largest junior football league

:57:12.:57:17.

in Europe, under the banner of Sheffield Hallam FA, and they are

:57:18.:57:22.

partnering the project, in one >> STUDIO: -- in my constituency, very

:57:23.:57:33.

good initiatives taken despite the problems, but with regards to its

:57:34.:57:36.

governance, there has been too much delay. The FA chairman says he would

:57:37.:57:40.

like to see reform and I simply say we ought to back Greg Clark now, but

:57:41.:57:45.

make it clear, if they and other bodies don't back in, we will ask

:57:46.:57:49.

the government to act instead. -- back him. I don't want to go down

:57:50.:57:55.

the route of legislation to reform for poor governments but it seems

:57:56.:57:59.

very much that we are in the last chance alone with the FA and they

:58:00.:58:00.

have been for a long time. -- Simone this is a man who has a clarity of

:58:01.:58:11.

purpose, Greg Clark, and he wants to make a difference, he has asked for

:58:12.:58:14.

time to be able to do that we should be willing to give him but only a

:58:15.:58:27.

little. The football campaign, grassroots organisation,

:58:28.:58:32.

parliamentarians and constituents, they all want change, and reform, so

:58:33.:58:38.

why does my friend think that the FA believes otherwise? Are they so out

:58:39.:58:42.

of touch there is no need external imposition? I don't think Greg Clark

:58:43.:58:47.

is out of touch and I don't think he believes otherwise. He has a clarity

:58:48.:58:53.

of purpose, but the structure is inflexible and not budge in, so we

:58:54.:58:56.

have the juggernaut of the Premier League described by the chairman of

:58:57.:59:01.

the subcommittee that is a success with the best players. Wasn't it

:59:02.:59:06.

magnificent to be a Goodison Park at the weekend to see Lukaku score for

:59:07.:59:18.

-- four, but I digress. LAUGHTER But on the other side can we have

:59:19.:59:23.

the elderly gentleman, 25 life presidents, described by the

:59:24.:59:29.

committee chairman as the blazes, as opposed to the Glazers where any

:59:30.:59:33.

Manchester United fans. And it reminded me, of Will Carling's

:59:34.:59:39.

famous description of the RFU from 1995, 57 old Fat. A phrase which

:59:40.:59:45.

moved things on and the RFU brought its governance up-to-date -- a

:59:46.:59:50.

course phrase. My view is that it is the

:59:51.:59:59.

combination of the two, it is both of them, and at which point it is

:00:00.:00:03.

clear that legislation might well be the only course forward to break the

:00:04.:00:13.

logjam. If I might digress, the one area where I disagree with my

:00:14.:00:17.

friend, where the structures at the top are not right, the management

:00:18.:00:20.

below does not fall into place either. We know the FA after failing

:00:21.:00:24.

to regulate the power of football agents, and they have a football

:00:25.:00:29.

agent zigzag which can be passed by an 11-year-old, I've been told. --

:00:30.:00:37.

football agent's exam. There is still the potential for the bung

:00:38.:00:40.

culture because the structures aren't right and so the management

:00:41.:00:43.

below is not right and the Forstmann below is not right. -- the

:00:44.:00:46.

enforcement. We have talked about the problems at

:00:47.:00:54.

Coventry City, Greg Clark trouble is that while they have tests were

:00:55.:00:57.

draped as an officer as a dozen test to see whether there is no test in

:00:58.:01:01.

place to see whether the person can actually have the ability to run a

:01:02.:01:06.

club. So those management structures aren't good enough either during the

:01:07.:01:11.

select committee I talk about the tentacles of offshore ownership and

:01:12.:01:14.

untraceable money that the Football Association is unable to manage. The

:01:15.:01:19.

case of fibre Corporation which between 2011 and 2013 used its base

:01:20.:01:26.

in the British Virgin Islands to loan millions of pounds to Everton,

:01:27.:01:31.

West Ham, Fulham, Reading and Southampton, despite there being no

:01:32.:01:39.

clarity about who actually owns it. The further problem about the effort

:01:40.:01:48.

-- FA having very little control over financial matters, therefore

:01:49.:01:58.

the FA allows the FA to avoid responsibility, that good governance

:01:59.:02:00.

depends on the Reg tractors at the top, and allowing of the management

:02:01.:02:07.

to enforce rules which are put incorrectly. Greg Clark is a good

:02:08.:02:12.

man. I think he will fight hard to achieve his reform, he has won

:02:13.:02:16.

friends in the the game by visiting every county FA but he needs the

:02:17.:02:19.

support and at the moment are not quite clear he has got it. I will

:02:20.:02:30.

speak very briefly, Mr Speaker. Probably about Leicester. I thank my

:02:31.:02:35.

honourable friend from the home of the English Premier champions, Mr

:02:36.:02:41.

Speaker, my message today is one of support for the reform package that

:02:42.:02:45.

has been put forward but acknowledging the excellent work

:02:46.:02:48.

that has been done by the chairman of the select committee and those

:02:49.:02:50.

other members over the last few years. Of course this is an

:02:51.:02:55.

organisation that needs to be reformed, and I think that Greg

:02:56.:03:00.

Clark, who I know personally and on the last occasion I was at the King

:03:01.:03:07.

Power Stadium, Greg Clark was there, a former chairman of Leicester City

:03:08.:03:10.

football club, I believe he really is genuine in his desire to reform

:03:11.:03:14.

this organisation. And he has made it very clear if these reforms do

:03:15.:03:19.

not go through then he will link Russia's position. I think what is

:03:20.:03:26.

very important, given the impressive contributions that we have heard

:03:27.:03:30.

from members on all sides of the house, that we acknowledge that

:03:31.:03:33.

reform has to come sooner rather than later. But I want to

:03:34.:03:37.

specifically talk about the importance of diversity. 25% of the

:03:38.:03:44.

professional footballers happen to be of Afro-Caribbean origin. Only 17

:03:45.:03:54.

of the 92 top clubs have got a B a M a coach in their senior positions. I

:03:55.:03:58.

think it is really important when you look at the way in which

:03:59.:04:07.

football has developed -- be AMD. That we acknowledge the lack of

:04:08.:04:10.

diversity in football and I hope that when the reform package is put

:04:11.:04:14.

to ministers, and I understand that Mr Clarke warns the government to

:04:15.:04:19.

back those proposals first before they are implement it, that that

:04:20.:04:24.

will include a recognition of the importance of diversity. Not just at

:04:25.:04:30.

club level but at local level. I am delighted that in Leicester we have

:04:31.:04:34.

local football teams that are developing the skills of young

:04:35.:04:39.

people, who I hope will draw notched a playful Leicester City at the King

:04:40.:04:44.

Power stadium, to help us retain the Premier League this season, Mr

:04:45.:04:51.

Speaker, and to go on to beat Sevilla and win the Champions League

:04:52.:04:55.

this season, but also to build up that foundation for the future. And

:04:56.:05:00.

it is through these young people, through our schools and local

:05:01.:05:04.

football clubs, that we find players for the future. So I hope that the

:05:05.:05:11.

government recognises that these are serious issues, and I'm sure the

:05:12.:05:14.

Minister for sport does. I invite her to come to the King Power

:05:15.:05:18.

stadium for the end of the season to have a look and see diversity in

:05:19.:05:22.

action, not just as far as the football players are concerned that

:05:23.:05:26.

Leicester, but the ownership and the way in which the management has

:05:27.:05:33.

developed. It has been 50 years of hurt in meaningless game and we are

:05:34.:05:37.

all suffering, at least we are not Scotland, that is all I can say, Mr

:05:38.:05:45.

Speaker. But it has not just been all of the issues raised by members

:05:46.:05:51.

that appear to show a structure and fit for purpose, but what we have

:05:52.:05:56.

seen is not just a sequence of managers but a sequence of chairman

:05:57.:06:00.

who have not been credible or led the FA. That is time for a root and

:06:01.:06:06.

branch reform of this organisation, and some sense of the British or the

:06:07.:06:12.

English game being managed for the benefit of all. Those at the top and

:06:13.:06:18.

at the bottom. I want to touch in a line or two on some of the issues,

:06:19.:06:23.

the coaching problems which my honourable friend for Leicester East

:06:24.:06:25.

touch on, they're all sorts of problems in the coaching, and we

:06:26.:06:29.

have had the recent scandal. When we talk about root and branch reform

:06:30.:06:32.

can't just be about the FA and the senior structures and picking the

:06:33.:06:36.

England manager, although they are dreadful at that, but it has to be

:06:37.:06:40.

some of the other issues at grassroots, as my honourable friend

:06:41.:06:44.

the Chester said about funding grassroots football, all of that has

:06:45.:06:47.

to be part of root and branch reform. In my own area I have three

:06:48.:06:54.

clubs, two that are well-run, Accrington Stanley and a shout for

:06:55.:07:00.

Andy Hodd, who has to be the best chairman in the football league and

:07:01.:07:18.

Burnley. Moving on. One of the issues is my club Blackburn Rovers

:07:19.:07:21.

and how poorly they are run. Touching on the FA before I go to

:07:22.:07:26.

the fit and proper person's test, one of the issues is for instance

:07:27.:07:29.

three or four years ago and my honourable friend the Chester

:07:30.:07:34.

mention this, the involvement of agents in the game. This root and

:07:35.:07:38.

branch reform has to involve, we had Jerome Anderson, agent 001, who went

:07:39.:07:45.

on the television and said he was working for Blackburn Rovers. He was

:07:46.:07:52.

acting as a advert -- an adviser for players will stop it was also an

:07:53.:07:55.

agent providing players, and his son was on the books at the time among

:07:56.:07:59.

some of the other players he represented, and the FA said this

:08:00.:08:03.

was not in breach. I think everybody looked at this and thought we have

:08:04.:08:07.

just had half an hour's rant from Jerome Anderson on Sky Sports, this

:08:08.:08:11.

is clearly wrong, and the FA did nothing about it. It brings the game

:08:12.:08:16.

into disrepute. But my final point is about the owners. I think people

:08:17.:08:24.

know what I will say. We talk about some of the people who perhaps

:08:25.:08:27.

should not be running for financial reasons. Then the case of backbone

:08:28.:08:30.

rovers it is just sheer incompetence, only one UK director,

:08:31.:08:34.

they have no interest of the fans, and no interest in the club. I do

:08:35.:08:38.

know if the Minister will be able to be on her feet by 4:50pm but that is

:08:39.:08:42.

what you would like an she has a fair bit to say but we'll see how we

:08:43.:08:49.

get on. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in today's

:08:50.:08:53.

debate. As the chair of the select committee set out a powerful case,

:08:54.:08:58.

we have also had a number of fantastic contributions from members

:08:59.:09:03.

across the house, with perhaps the honourable member find Byrne who has

:09:04.:09:07.

just spoke and taken the Mick out of the Scottish game. The emotion I say

:09:08.:09:11.

before as is damning enough, and have little sympathy for the FA.

:09:12.:09:16.

They had been given early warning of the concerns that the select

:09:17.:09:20.

committee have had. The first report outlined, and I thought it was

:09:21.:09:24.

stated that the football authorities had not done enough in government

:09:25.:09:28.

policies published in 2013. We are six years into the process and

:09:29.:09:32.

questions are being asked about why Enner has not been done. The

:09:33.:09:37.

somewhat squeeze debate I want to focus on the arc of perversity at

:09:38.:09:41.

the top of the FA and across the game in general and primarily focus

:09:42.:09:46.

in the lack of women involved in the running of it. There was only one

:09:47.:09:55.

woman that currently sits on the 14 person board. This is not only an

:09:56.:09:59.

issue that affects the English FA. There is room for improvement for

:10:00.:10:08.

the SFA. The Scotland goalkeeper claims that women Le Notre Paddon to

:10:09.:10:12.

the enough at board level and has called on various governing boards

:10:13.:10:18.

to diversify. A recent survey has found only three out of 70 directors

:10:19.:10:24.

are women in Scotland and this exists in boardrooms across the

:10:25.:10:34.

game. The Brendan Rogers the SFA have been going through...

:10:35.:10:47.

The creation of the Congress has meant that clubs and affiliate is

:10:48.:10:52.

our joint directive nosed bodies such as PFA Scotland, Scottish

:10:53.:11:01.

football writers and sport Scotland. The Congress deals with many issues

:11:02.:11:05.

in the game and looks at ways of increasing the numbers and influence

:11:06.:11:09.

of women in the game. For a long time and many moons ago the founder

:11:10.:11:15.

of Scottish women spot was the only woman involved at any senior level

:11:16.:11:20.

within the SFA. She sat on the SFA, and is the only one to have achieved

:11:21.:11:23.

a long service medal from the Scottish FA council is the only

:11:24.:11:29.

woman in the council for 14 years, and casual sexism was rampant in

:11:30.:11:33.

those days. She herself gives an example, one of the first she went

:11:34.:11:37.

to was for the opening of the South stand at Hampden. I was at a table

:11:38.:11:42.

with all of council wives were my work colleagues were sitting

:11:43.:11:46.

elsewhere. I wrote to the then SFA Chief Executive said I am not a wife

:11:47.:11:50.

I am actually a worker. I then became the first woman is to sit at

:11:51.:11:54.

a man's table at one of the dinners. To be fair I was always treated well

:11:55.:11:57.

within the council but they never knew how to address make it was

:11:58.:12:03.

always good morning and Maureen. Despite the welcome progress I have

:12:04.:12:07.

outlined, it still has no female members of its professional board,

:12:08.:12:11.

the SFA, and it is fair to say that a dramatic increase in the pace of

:12:12.:12:14.

change is required. That is also fed to say that two of the most

:12:15.:12:17.

impressive people currently operating in the Scottish game on

:12:18.:12:27.

women. Ann Budge has spearheaded a change of fortune for Hearts.

:12:28.:12:33.

Meanwhile Edinburgh arrivals Hibernian have in my view an

:12:34.:12:37.

inspirational Chief Exec in Leanne Ben Stow, I was lucky enough to be a

:12:38.:12:41.

guest of hers at Easter Road a few months ago and she was eager to

:12:42.:12:45.

discuss a community programme they had embarked upon. Most clubs these

:12:46.:12:48.

days have a community trust, some more effective than others.

:12:49.:13:08.

Leanne has strong opinions in that there are still not enough women

:13:09.:13:13.

involved in the game at decision-making level. The FA always

:13:14.:13:19.

talk about how sport should be for everyone, but how can that be the

:13:20.:13:24.

case when at senior level that is a glass ceiling for those who are not

:13:25.:13:35.

white and male. The recent comments made, they are advised not to come

:13:36.:13:38.

out because the FA could not protect them was inherently wrong and an

:13:39.:13:41.

application of leadership on a hugely important issue. Instead of

:13:42.:13:50.

urging people to remain silent the FHM and should be doing all he can

:13:51.:13:53.

to ensure that football is a place for anyone and anyone who dares to

:13:54.:13:58.

abuse a player for anything is not welcome at football matches. If a

:13:59.:14:03.

particular club has repeat offenders than in my opinion they should be

:14:04.:14:07.

punished with larger fines and point deductions. This would have been the

:14:08.:14:11.

correct approach to take and underlines the faults that exist

:14:12.:14:15.

within the FA. The FA is a governing body and has written to Richard

:14:16.:14:19.

Woods clubs, and managers and supporters to set out standards fall

:14:20.:14:23.

of those involved in the game. Football is massively important to

:14:24.:14:27.

all home nations. Over 12 million people play the game and that is

:14:28.:14:31.

woven into the very fabric of our society. Despite all of this

:14:32.:14:35.

football has to change and adapt. This is not about government

:14:36.:14:38.

interfering in the affairs of the game but ensuring that the FA meets

:14:39.:14:41.

its slogan about winning the game for everyone. Ready to open the

:14:42.:14:44.

boardroom to people of all backgrounds.

:14:45.:14:54.

It is clear from speeches made from honourable members on both sides of

:14:55.:14:59.

the bench that football really is close to wall of our hearts. Like

:15:00.:15:03.

the honourable member across from me, football is a game I grew up

:15:04.:15:08.

playing and I like all of us should have gone through the highs and lows

:15:09.:15:11.

watching my team throw away a game in the final minutes or winning

:15:12.:15:15.

spectacularly on the world stage. For that one it would depend who you

:15:16.:15:19.

support. I would also like to put on a record that in the spirit of

:15:20.:15:22.

diversity I am very glad that me and my friend opposite are both women.

:15:23.:15:30.

But today's debate has been called unfortunately not to debate these

:15:31.:15:34.

highs and lows of football but to debate confidence in the focal

:15:35.:15:37.

Association. Rigorous governments and following proper and due process

:15:38.:15:45.

is important in order to work in the best interest of its players,

:15:46.:15:49.

coaches, match stadium staff and fans. Rigorous governments allows us

:15:50.:15:54.

to the build trust, not only towards the governing body itself but

:15:55.:15:59.

amongst those who make up the game. With rigorous governments comes

:16:00.:16:02.

positive outcomes, which insures a port at a grassroots level to

:16:03.:16:06.

increase participation of women and girls in a sport currently dominated

:16:07.:16:07.

by the men's game. Perhaps one of the most important

:16:08.:16:24.

being the supporters themselves. I would be delighted to give way.

:16:25.:16:31.

Converting graduate my friend on her appointment as the Shadow Minister

:16:32.:16:33.

for sport -- can I congratulate my friend. And as a supporter of

:16:34.:16:41.

Leicester City, like myself. Can I mention, she said diversity, does

:16:42.:16:49.

she believe a target should be put on in terms of ethnic and gender

:16:50.:16:54.

representation or would she leave it to the FA itself? That's a very good

:16:55.:17:03.

question. I have met with Greg Clark and representatives from the FA and

:17:04.:17:09.

I do believe that he understands deeply the importance of diversity

:17:10.:17:14.

at every level, I truly believe he feels that. Putting quotas perhaps

:17:15.:17:22.

adds value but we need to make sure that women and people from ethnic

:17:23.:17:25.

minority groups also feel empowered to apply for jobs, not just on the

:17:26.:17:31.

field, but also in the boardroom, and it is important to have role

:17:32.:17:35.

models. The FA has a duty, one of these being governing the game with

:17:36.:17:40.

integrity. It can't fulfil its duty unless it has strong governance and

:17:41.:17:43.

at present the FA is not performing well enough. This needs to change

:17:44.:17:48.

your stop there is no cushioning around this point. The FA must do

:17:49.:17:57.

more. In 2011, Lord Burns said the council at 180 members was too large

:17:58.:18:01.

and today we have 122 members. This is a council made up of only eight

:18:02.:18:10.

women and four representatives from black and minority ethnic groups.

:18:11.:18:14.

Not only is diversity not in the heart of the FA, it isn't in the

:18:15.:18:21.

body or indeed in its soul. My friend spoke about the importance of

:18:22.:18:26.

nurturing more home-grown talent. The FA has accepted these and other

:18:27.:18:30.

failings but now it must move on from the criticism and make a clear

:18:31.:18:34.

path forward to a road of good governance, and if it doesn't it

:18:35.:18:36.

will only have a detrimental effect for the game. Despite this we must

:18:37.:18:42.

not sidelined the hard work and determination for many at the FA,

:18:43.:18:49.

and my friend made a point about the extra work to tackle racism and the

:18:50.:18:54.

aim to double female participation in 2030. We must acknowledge this as

:18:55.:19:01.

positive. ?22 million he is invested into the grassroots game and with

:19:02.:19:07.

more flexibility with five side and a larger portion of the population

:19:08.:19:10.

have the opportunity to get involved. These ambitious steps.

:19:11.:19:15.

This should not be taken away from the FA. Just as the FA has agility,

:19:16.:19:20.

so do we this chamber, we have a duty to follow the process -- just

:19:21.:19:29.

as the FA has a duty. If this is not adhere to we will be moving the

:19:30.:19:34.

goalposts, as it were, and it will be a detrimental affect on the game.

:19:35.:19:42.

This is not something I wish to do. All national governing bodies have

:19:43.:19:45.

been given unto able to lay their plans before the government and to

:19:46.:19:51.

show their reforms. -- until April. We cannot single out individual

:19:52.:19:55.

governing bodies, Parliament must live up to its own duty and we

:19:56.:19:59.

cannot shift the goalposts the summer and leave them cemented for

:20:00.:20:06.

others. We must make the FA aware this is the last opportunity. In

:20:07.:20:12.

December the minister stated that she believed financial penalties,

:20:13.:20:16.

that of removing ?30 million of funding, as well as withholding

:20:17.:20:19.

support for a World Cup bid, would be severe enough for the FA to take

:20:20.:20:24.

notice and make reforms. Respectively I would like to

:20:25.:20:28.

disagree. In the evidence session the minister said funding would

:20:29.:20:31.

still be given to football, but through different means. This does

:20:32.:20:35.

not have a significant effect on the game, therefore. The member for

:20:36.:20:40.

Folkestone quoted a lifetime peer, and today the same peer has said the

:20:41.:20:45.

governing body is rich enough to stand alone and should resist change

:20:46.:20:49.

that would see a more independent board and an end to the current

:20:50.:20:53.

council structure, this makes it clear that finds cutting are not and

:20:54.:20:56.

will never be a driving factor for a formal. -- funds cutting are not and

:20:57.:21:04.

will never be a driving factor for reform. I asked the minister after

:21:05.:21:15.

these covers, does she still stand by these comments? It must be made

:21:16.:21:20.

known to the FA that this will take place if in April plans presented to

:21:21.:21:24.

the government are not of a sufficient major and reform can't be

:21:25.:21:31.

seen. Does the Minister agree that if in April the plans are not

:21:32.:21:35.

sufficient, the only next step is legislation? Will the Minister

:21:36.:21:44.

commit that if the NAR FA are not able to show accountability, and not

:21:45.:21:50.

meeting the mandatory aspect of the greater diversity, she will take

:21:51.:21:55.

action against the FA. What I want to highlight is that we can't and

:21:56.:21:59.

should not jump the gun. It is for this reason that at this time I

:22:00.:22:02.

can't stand by a motion of no confidence. I will stand extremely

:22:03.:22:08.

firm in April, though. My message today, reform is this is very,

:22:09.:22:14.

progress must be seen, if this is not the case, the time for self

:22:15.:22:18.

reform is up reform is necessary. I would like to thank all of these

:22:19.:22:29.

members for securing this backbench debate this afternoon. Members have

:22:30.:22:34.

spoken with passion and insight on a subject we care deeply about. I do

:22:35.:22:39.

think that well this debate is important it is nonetheless a few

:22:40.:22:43.

weeks premature, for reasons I will explain. I also think we need to be

:22:44.:22:51.

careful that we don't tarnish the success of in this football and to

:22:52.:22:54.

do so would denigrate the hard work and commitment of the thousands of

:22:55.:22:59.

volunteers at grassroots level to the professionalism of the majority

:23:00.:23:01.

of coaches and players and labs at elite level. When I sat in front of

:23:02.:23:13.

the committee, members were sceptical about the removal of

:23:14.:23:17.

funding, and this was reaffirmed this morning in the letter from

:23:18.:23:22.

Barry Taylor. To 120 members of the council, he ", we have the power and

:23:23.:23:31.

the money, let them stop the funding". The government bail out

:23:32.:23:40.

the FA would ?160 million of public money to build when the stadium and

:23:41.:23:44.

we gave them ?6 million to help them complete St George's Park and we

:23:45.:23:47.

gave them guarantees for the World Cup bid and a similar underwriting

:23:48.:23:55.

for staging the Champions League at Wembley and the European

:23:56.:23:57.

Championship semifinals and final in 2020. ?10 million is given each year

:23:58.:24:05.

to the football foundation charity that we partner with the FA and

:24:06.:24:10.

Premier League, which is built and has upgraded thousands of grassroots

:24:11.:24:13.

facilities across the country. This is on top of the ?30 million the FA

:24:14.:24:17.

have had to grow the game in other areas in the last four years. Mr

:24:18.:24:23.

Taylor and others might not see the threat of removing public money as a

:24:24.:24:27.

seriously one, but we should reflect this is not just about not giving

:24:28.:24:32.

them the money, but about the other aspects, as well. Mr Taylor's view

:24:33.:24:37.

is not the view of the FA executive, though. They know without the

:24:38.:24:42.

support of government we would not have a national foot will stadium

:24:43.:24:46.

and we would not be able to host the prestigious European matches --

:24:47.:24:52.

national football stadium. We recognise the ambition the FA has

:24:53.:24:55.

for football in this country and government shares in the FA's future

:24:56.:25:01.

ambitions. When they told us of a lack of facilities in coaching, to

:25:02.:25:06.

produce better players in grassroots, without hesitation we

:25:07.:25:09.

backed thereby committing a further ?50 million over the course of this

:25:10.:25:13.

Parliament. This -- we backed them by committing. Mr Speaker, the

:25:14.:25:21.

government intention is clear, we want to support the grassroots

:25:22.:25:23.

amateur and professional games as a whole. In my discussions with the FA

:25:24.:25:26.

sex did they say they helping them to live important

:25:27.:25:37.

initiatives on the ground. However, the public money which many members

:25:38.:25:44.

of the public don't think a wealthy sport like football should have,

:25:45.:25:49.

comes with conditions. UK code for governance published in October was

:25:50.:25:52.

not written specifically for the FA, but nor are they exempt from it. The

:25:53.:25:58.

code will help make sure that all sports governing bodies are moving

:25:59.:26:01.

in the right direction. And are creating the most effective

:26:02.:26:03.

environment for their thoughts that it -- for their sports to thriving.

:26:04.:26:16.

It challenges sports bodies to reflect on whether their current

:26:17.:26:21.

structures are affected. I genuinely don't think that we are asking

:26:22.:26:24.

sporting bodies to do more than what you would expect in good corporate

:26:25.:26:30.

governance. Frankly what right do we have to criticise the governance of

:26:31.:26:35.

Fifa if the nation's FA is not transparent in its own

:26:36.:26:39.

decision-making process. Good governance it was better

:26:40.:26:41.

decision-making and reform of the governance structure at the FA will

:26:42.:26:44.

undoubtedly permeate through football at all levels. We have

:26:45.:26:49.

heard how the FA has lagged behind at times and is unrepresentative of

:26:50.:26:54.

the people that play and support the game, and is unable or unwilling to

:26:55.:27:00.

unlock the stranglehold of vested interests. I don't disagree with

:27:01.:27:06.

most of that sentiment, the FA concentrated its grassroots efforts

:27:07.:27:11.

on a traditional 11 aside parks game and the results or participation

:27:12.:27:15.

stagnate and decline at times. The FA were slow to mechanise that

:27:16.:27:17.

people's playing habits were changing along with their lifestyles

:27:18.:27:24.

-- slow to recognise. The FA fail to recognise the potential of girls and

:27:25.:27:29.

women's football in this country for too long. And I, and FA call five

:27:30.:27:41.

coach, and sports Minister, set two seats away from him on a platform,

:27:42.:27:49.

it is little wonder there are folk -- they are so few women on the

:27:50.:27:51.

board of the FA. Mr Speaker, members will yesterday

:27:52.:28:06.

the open letter that the German Greg Clark sent to the council. He knows

:28:07.:28:14.

that by the end of the march -- the chairman Greg Clark. We will see the

:28:15.:28:21.

timescale for achieving its target and he says it bit doesn't comply he

:28:22.:28:25.

would have failed and he will resign. It's true, he would have

:28:26.:28:30.

failed, but it will be as a consequence of its own board and

:28:31.:28:33.

council failing him and not because the government has set them in

:28:34.:28:37.

unreasonably challenging target of governance. By except the FA has not

:28:38.:28:45.

delivered -- I accept. But where we are with the mandatory code is

:28:46.:28:49.

different where we have been before, the coat acts as a yardstick where

:28:50.:28:51.

we can benchmark our sporting governing body -- the code. In

:28:52.:28:57.

conclusion, we should be proud of what football has achieved. We must

:28:58.:29:04.

also reflect else it can needs to improve, we can make sure that sport

:29:05.:29:09.

goes into grassroots football without going through the FA. Only

:29:10.:29:13.

30% of grassroots football is delivered through the FA. It's up to

:29:14.:29:18.

the FA if they wish to play Russian roulette with public money, and I

:29:19.:29:22.

think it's fair to say given the debate, and a number of

:29:23.:29:26.

representations we've received, that they will lose. The FA's current

:29:27.:29:32.

model does not in my opinion stand up to scrutiny. Reform is required.

:29:33.:29:38.

But I repeat, the governing body has every opportunity to bring that

:29:39.:29:43.

about themselves. I believe a vote of no-confidence is six weeks

:29:44.:29:45.

premature, but they and other governing body should be aware that

:29:46.:29:48.

the clock is ticking and to reform will lead to the withdrawal of

:29:49.:29:53.

public money on further consideration of legislative regular

:29:54.:29:56.

JM financial options to bring about this change -- regular tree.

:29:57.:30:03.

Everyone to see this change, letter begin here.

:30:04.:30:08.

The message in this debate is clear, no changes no option, this debate

:30:09.:30:13.

has been running for a long time, for too long, and the FA is not only

:30:14.:30:21.

in extra time, they are in Fergie time, they are 1-0 down, and if they

:30:22.:30:25.

don't reform, reform will be delivered to them if they won't

:30:26.:30:31.

reform themselves. The question is on the order paper. I think the ayes

:30:32.:30:35.

have it.

:30:36.:30:38.

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