Browse content similar to 06/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
That is the end of the day in the House of Commons. We will now be | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
going over live to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
coverage of all of today's business in the House of Lords after the | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
daily politics later tonight. My lords, this amendment is by way of a | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
probing amendment, really just to clarify the situation which has | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
arisen which concerns pretty specifically and possibly uniquely | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
the Guildhall School of music and drama. The Guildhall School is a | :00:39. | :00:46. | |
very unusual institution. Partly because of its history and partly | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
because of its ownership. It is an unincorporated body. It does not | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
have a legal structure, which is common amongst higher education | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
colleges. It was set up 137 years ago in 1880 by the city of the | :01:02. | :01:12. | |
corporation as a conservator, and has never changed its corporate | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
structure since those days. It is owned by the City of London | :01:18. | :01:25. | |
Corporation. It's caught of governors is appointed by the city | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
of the corporation. And indeed something close to one third of its | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
funding comes from the city of Corporation. It is indeed an | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
integral part of the whole structure of the city of, in the same way in | :01:40. | :01:45. | |
deed that the Hamstead Heath and Epping Forest and so on are all run | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
as well, as are various other schools. This gives the problem | :01:50. | :02:00. | |
under the higher education research bill that it is a body that doesn't | :02:01. | :02:12. | |
really fit into the definitions of what the white paper was trying to | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
create, because the Government's white paper, which informs this bill | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
obviously, indicates the Government 's principles for which the office | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
for students under the powers confirmed under this clause would be | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
comparable to those currently required by the AGF CE funded | :02:33. | :02:42. | |
providers in line with the engine code of governors. There is every | :02:43. | :02:51. | |
reason to assume that the governors' principles and visit by clause 15, | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
which the students will be developing, will be applicable to | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
the Guildhall with equal success. This clause however instead uses | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
statutory backing for the principles, and the concern is that | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
in moving to this more formalised position, some of the flexibility | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
which currently exists will be lost, and the ability then to take account | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
of the possibly unique governance structure of the Guildhall School of | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
music will no longer be applicable. This amendment is really to try and | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
flush out whether it is possible to have sufficient flexibility under | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
the new structure to enable the Guildhall School of music to | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
continue in the way that it has in the past, in other words to be an | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
integral part of the Corporation of London. And that is really what this | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
is trying to work out, as to whether things can go on as they are at the | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
moment, or whether things indeed have to change for the Guildhall | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
School of music with possibly unfortunate consequences. And on | :03:59. | :04:07. | |
that basis, I beg to move. Page nine by 19. | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
My lords, I am grateful to my noble friend who not the first time has | :04:14. | :04:22. | |
raised in your lordship's house concern about the City of London | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
Police operation. Clause 15 enables the OFS to take over the | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
responsibility of scrutinising providers' governing documents | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
against the interest of principles. I would like to reassure my noble | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
friend that we do not anticipate any impact on current higher education | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
institutions being recognised by the OFS as higher education providers in | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
the future. The intended practical application of the current and | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
future list is to ensure best practice within already existing and | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
recognised higher education providers governing documents, and | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
it is not the intention of these principles to provide documents. The | :05:02. | :05:11. | |
OFS must consult on new principles with the requirement that there | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
should be a principle protecting academic freedom for staff, which | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
I'm sure the Guildhall has no difficulty with. The Bill does not | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
prescribe what should be included in that list, so I say to my noble | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
friend that there is nothing in clause 15 that should concern the | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
Guildhall School of music, and it should continue to do the valuable | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
work it has been doing for so long, and against that grand of assurance, | :05:35. | :05:40. | |
I hope my honourable friend might be able to withdraw his reassurance. I | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
am grateful to my friend for that because that is precisely what the | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
Guildhall School of music is looking for, some kind of guidance as to | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
what will occur as this bill becomes apparent, and so I beg leave to | :05:58. | :06:10. | |
withdraw my amendment. My lords, I return with this amendment to top -- | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
topic that was raised at committee in some detail in relation to what | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
might happen in a hypothetical situation where I higher education | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
provider is in breach of an ongoing registration condition relating to | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
the quality of the education it is providing or it ability to implement | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
a student production plan. The Bill is good on these issues, and it is | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
important that we should have measures of this type in statute. | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
But the question that arose during the earlier debate, and which arises | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
still, because the satisfactory answer was not in my view entirely | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
satisfactory is that the only penalty that is specified in the | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
Bill is a financial penalty, in other words in breach of the | :06:57. | :06:58. | |
registration conditions in the terms I have just outlined, an institution | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
would face itself with a fine, which is not specified which can be quite | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
substantial in relation to activities. The point was made | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
during the debate in committee that there may be other sanctions | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
available, and the question is why are these not also in the Bill, | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
because it would surely be helpful to the OFS have a range of possible | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
opportunities to get redress from institutions. And in particular, not | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
necessarily go down a financial route which might of course have the | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
ultimately situation which would not be very satisfactory in terms of the | :07:35. | :07:37. | |
requirement of the Bill to reduce the amount of money that was | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
available to spend on teaching students, so the question was, and | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
specified in the amendment, whether it wouldn't be better to have a | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
numbers cap as well as a financial penalty in that area, and I beg to | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
move. The proposal of the new clause which is printed on the list. Within | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
this part of the Bill concerning registration conditions, so far it | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
appears there is nothing much about restricting enrolment. Clause 16 | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
enables monetary penalties, while in various other respects, clauses | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
17-22 inclusive allow for penalties if and when desirable. But | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
subsequent to the central matter, which is enrolment in the first | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
place, in this context, by contrast, it appears erroneous that in certain | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
circumstances a useful scope for the restriction should so far not have | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
been addressed at all. However, with this proposed new clause, the noble | :08:43. | :08:54. | |
lord Lord Stevenson had a timely and was worthy of support. | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
I would like to rise and support the proposition. When we discussed it in | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
committee, the Minister did say that he saw no reason why there should | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
not be a wider range of penalties at the disposal of the office for | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
students. It would be very helpful to have that, I think, confirmed in | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
the Bill, because otherwise it seems to me that there is a possibility of | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
challenge, of the OFS exceeding its powers, if it moved to restrict the | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
number of students in a way that would seem on many occasions | :09:32. | :09:42. | |
entirely appropriate. My lords, the noble baroness lady Woolf expressed | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
concern steering committee that the OFS would not have appropriate | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
powers to restrict student enrolment at a register higher education | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
provider in the event of a breach of registration conditions, and I | :09:54. | :09:55. | |
listened very carefully to her short speech just now. Lady garden and | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
Lord Watson also spoke at the committee. This is a concern that | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
the OFS would not have appropriate powers to restrict student enrolment | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
at a registered provider in event of a breach of enrolment conditions, | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
and will instead have to either impose monetary penalty or | :10:20. | :10:21. | |
deregister the provider, both of which would have a negative impact | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
on the Enron students. It is our intention that such sanctions would | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
only be opposed in exceptional circumstances. The OFS would operate | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
a risk-based system whereby any regulatory action is to be | :10:35. | :10:44. | |
proportionate to the original issue. There are a range of measures such | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
as agreeing a support strategy with the provider or directing that | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
certain actions should be taken through to imposing specific ongoing | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
registration conditions. And finally to sanctions. The imposition of a | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
student number control is precisely the sort of regulatory reaction that | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
can already be used under the powers in clause seven, which allows the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
OFS impose specific ongoing conditions. Imposing a student | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
number control would not be to the detriment of students already | :11:15. | :11:16. | |
studying with the provider, and would help to ensure that new | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
students that were subsequently enrolled would enjoy high-quality | :11:21. | :11:22. | |
suitably resourced teaching and learning. It is clearly not our | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
intention that the OFS deregister is to Jewish and impose monetary -- it | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
is not our intention that the OFS regulator is to impose monetary | :11:38. | :11:49. | |
sanctions. The OFS could impose student number controls, but we | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
believe it is unnecessary, as the Bill already provides the OFS with | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
the Bill necessary to limit student numbers where appropriate, so | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
without explanation, I ask the noble lord to withdraw his amendment. I am | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
very grateful to the noble lord of the contributing to this debate. It | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
is a point I hadn't spotted myself, and there is a mismatch here in | :12:14. | :12:20. | |
terms of how Institute will be treated. Again, he hasn't quite gone | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
as far as would-be obviously the right thing to do. He made the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
argument is rather better than I did, but then held back at the last | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
minute, so I might encourage to go a little further and the opinion. Any | :12:37. | :12:46. | |
who are content, say content. Not content, not content. | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
The question is and 50 for being greedy. So content. Not content. Not | :12:52. | :16:17. | |
content go to the left by the bar. The question is that | :16:18. | :21:39. | |
amendment 54 be agreed to. My Lords, they have voted. Contents | :21:40. | :23:58. | |
45, not contents 140, therefore the not contents have it. | :23:59. | :24:17. | |
Amendment 55, Lord Stevenson of Palma Cara. My lords, we come to | :24:18. | :24:27. | |
group 13 and Amendment 50 56, 57, all of which concern protection for | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
students. We are to some extent returning with an issue touched on | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
committee, although the specifics vary somewhat. My lords, we have | :24:37. | :24:46. | |
heard often enough that any institution going bust, driving | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
itself into the sand would be a very rare occurrence, and of course we | :24:54. | :24:55. | |
are going to believe that, we desperately hope that is the case. | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
But it could happen, and at some stage it is pretty much certain that | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
it will happen. And when it does happen, the people that have to be | :25:06. | :25:12. | |
the main concern of every one of the students, those men and women who | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
have taken out a student loan to study at the institution have | :25:19. | :25:20. | |
identified that is the place they want to be, have commenced their | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
studies, in many cases very nearly completed their studies. And the | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
three amendments therefore deal with various scenarios that students | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
might face in the case of grave difficulty of the institution | :25:38. | :25:39. | |
perhaps folding completely. Amendment 55 states that when the | :25:40. | :25:46. | |
officers of students are suspended all registered, higher education | :25:47. | :25:49. | |
provides registration, various provisions have to be made as to | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
what the motives of suspension must promote. There are several appearing | :25:53. | :26:01. | |
under subparagraph six. None of them mentioned what happened to existing | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
students during the suspension period. The purpose of Amendment 55 | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
is to put that right, and as the noble Viscount Minister has | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
mentioned on several occasions, and specifically in relation to | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
amendment earlier today about the proposal to change the name of the | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
office of students, the reason that was not possible he said was that | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
students are right at the centre of this legislation. We want that to be | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
very clear. Well, if that is to be as clear as that it must surely be | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
accommodated within that particular clause to which I referred. | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
Amendment 56 goes on to talk about ensuring that students if an | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
institution becomes deregistered are fully notified as to when it | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
happens. This was covered in committee. It seems to me to be self | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
evident that that should take place. I cannot conceive of any notion as | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
to why that would not be the case, and also for them to be told when | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the expiry of the access and participation plan will occur. In | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
many ways I think the most important of these three is Amendment 50 | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
seven. That's about ensuring where a further education provider ceases to | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
be a wood to provide courses for its students, the office for students | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
must seek to place their students on similar courses at another provider. | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
And, as I said, if the government is, as I believe they are, committed | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
to having students at the centre of the legislation, why should students | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
be left to suffer through no fault of their own when a higher education | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
provider is no longer able to deliver the service to which those | :27:43. | :27:43. | |
students signed up? They will be left quite probably if | :27:44. | :27:55. | |
they cannot be found another course out of pocket over fees, because of | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
course fees still have to be repaid, sorry, loans have to be repaid. We | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
believe that the office for students has a due to to assist them in every | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
way possible to insure they can assist them in their studies -- has | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
a Judi to assist them. Overall these three amendments are about | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
protecting students, which cause to which everyone would be happy to | :28:19. | :28:33. | |
subscribe. Amendment proposed. I rise briefly to support Amendment 50 | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
seven. That earlier stages in the bill have welcomed the provisions of | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
clause 13, which provides that the office for students can generate | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
student protection plans, and I think that is to be welcomed. The | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
problem as the noble Lord has indicated, we don't know what form | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
that protection will take and I think there needs to be more on the | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
face of the bill. I moved an amendment at committee stage to try | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
to address this, but the government were not at that stage receptor. So | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
I think we really do need to come back to this, as the noble Lord has | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
said, it is the office for students. Students are meant to be at the | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
heart of this measure, and yet students are not good to have any | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
idea what protection they have when they undertake a course of study. | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
Clause 13 does refer as an example to a course failing to be provided | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
when it comes to protection, so what precisely is the protection being | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
accorded to students? I think they need that reassurance if they are | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
actually to pursue these causes to sign up for them in the first place, | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
so then I think amendment 57 gets out this particular problem, and I | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
welcome the fact that we are again considering it. I think student | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
Chumak deserve to have some idea what type of protection there will | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
be for them when they undertake a course of study. . I support the | :30:02. | :30:12. | |
amendments to which I have put my name, and everything that the low | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
balls Lords have said so far. When the higher education Bill was first | :30:17. | :30:20. | |
introduced, the Minister, both Ministers, pointed out that the | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
environment in which higher education takes place has changed | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
dramatically in recent years, and indeed it has so students now, very | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
large numbers, take out large loans, and they do so in the belief and | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
confidence that the institutions that they attend have been in some | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
sense guaranteed by government that they are doing something which they | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
are safe in doing, that they will be able to complete their studies. Now | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
that is fortunately in most cases true, but of course it isn't always | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
necessarily true, and anybody who looks at experience in other | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
countries will realise that institutions do fail, and indeed | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
some are non-degree awarding institutions that have failed in the | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
past. And indeed the competition markets authority says cheerfully on | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
its website that the sign of a healthy sector is that you have some | :31:15. | :31:20. | |
exit. Exit sounds quite cool, really, unless you happen to be one | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
of the students in an exiting institution. The technical education | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
Bill is also going through, and since I attend both, part of the | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
time I whinge, but mostly it is a very informative exercise, because | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
of course we do now have a tertiary sector as much as anything else. And | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
the protections that are being introduced for students in further | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
education colleges go well beyond anything that has been specified for | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
students in higher education, and I think that is highly regrettable. I | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
think that it is really important that in this new and changed | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
environment, we realise that students need new and changed | :32:03. | :32:10. | |
protection. And just to give an example, in the training sector, we | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
have for a long time had very many quite small and sometimes quite | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
large rapidly changing institutions, and just before these bills were | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
introduced to the House, we had the first story of a training provider | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
who went into liquidation, leaving many, many people with outstanding | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
loans and no obvious recalls. In the few weeks since both bills have | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
started to work their way through, we have had two other such failures, | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
and I will be happy to let anybody know who is curious about their | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
names, but once again, what you are left with is in this case adult | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
learners who have loans and who have no ongoing course. And when I raised | :33:01. | :33:07. | |
this with officials, I was told that the risks were less bad for | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
university students because they were more mobile, less local. But | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
that really isn't true. If you talk to many of our university | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
institutions, you will find that actually, this is not true of my | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
own, but it is true of many institutions, they have home | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
students who are almost all highly local, often because they come from | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
less advantaged families and are very unhappy about taking out major | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
loans, so they are very local, and if the institution fails, they don't | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
have anywhere else to go. So I would hope very much that Ministers would | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
feel able ideally to accept particularly I would agree amendment | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
57, which would seem to me to be the least we can do in an environment | :33:57. | :33:59. | |
where we are in effect making a promise to students. If it turns out | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
that they can't be kept, they ought to be looked after. Your Lordships | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
have heard me speak in this context as Chancellor of the University of | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
Birmingham and chair of the advisory board of the Cambridge arch business | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
school, but years ago when I was qualifying as a chartered accountant | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
at the Institute of chartered accountants in any unknown Wales, I | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
spent a year at what is now London Metropolitan University, and I want | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
to draw an analogy here. In 2012, London Metropolitan University where | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
I have been a visiting professor as well, they lost their right to | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
recruit international students. My lords, there were 2700 students at | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
that time with valid visas who had come in good faith, international | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
students, and they were given 60 days to find a place at another | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
institution. This was not only jeopardising their lives, their | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
futures, but it also put an institution with 30,000 students and | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
2000 staff at jeopardy and in crisis. The implications of | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
something like this is not only to that institution but in the context | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
of international students and international student affairs, | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
today, universities UK have released their report on international | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
students, showing that there are nearly 450,000 international | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
students in the UK, of which 130,000 are from the European Union. And the | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
contribution that they make to Britain in gross terms is ?25 | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
billion is what they spend directly and indirectly in our economy, and | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
with Brexit coming up, the uncertainty of international | :35:54. | :35:55. | |
students let alone Huw students is already there. If they have the | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
added uncertainty that if they join an institution but if that | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
institution fails, they are left high and dry, I don't think that is | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
right, I think that is affecting our economy and our ability to recruit | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
international students. As it is we have immigration rules that are | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
against international students, which we will talk about later on at | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
this report stage. So I would urge the Government to take this very | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
seriously, because it is our domestic students, giving them | :36:27. | :36:28. | |
security, and also for our international students and our | :36:29. | :36:39. | |
reputation around the world. I wasn't intending to speak on this | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
issue. I just think it is really important that if any of us had | :36:44. | :36:51. | |
children who we sent off to higher education, we would expect that that | :36:52. | :36:57. | |
higher education institution would give them the support that they | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
need. And there are of course private colleges which have their | :37:04. | :37:11. | |
courses validated by individual universities, and of course those | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
private colleges code under certain circumstances get into difficulties, | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
and then ceased trading. What happens to the student? What happens | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
to the student loan? What happens to those circumstances? As Baroness | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
Wulf rightly says, we are already seeing this in further education, | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
where training providers are going into liquidation. They are all | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
right, they have gone into liquidation, but the poor student is | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
left high and dry, so I hope when the Minister replies they might give | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
assurances into this particular issue. My lords, I am grateful to | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
all noble Lords who have spoken on this debate, which has raised the | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
important issue of student protection in case of suspension of | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
registration or indeed deregistration, and I think there is | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
no disagreement that student protection is important, and that is | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
why in the Bill we have gone further than ever before by including an | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
express provision in the Bill enabling the OFS to ensure | :38:19. | :38:24. | |
appropriate protections for students through a key condition of provider | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
registration. The noble lord and others have made some help for | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
suggestions regarding the likely content of student protection plans | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
which we agree need to be robust and copper heads of in their coverage. | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
These plans are likely to include a diverse range of measures to protect | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
students as well as a diverse range of possible triggers for a student | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
protection plan, including suspension of registration. In | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
response to the concerns that have been expressed in this debate, I can | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
say that draft guidance will be prepared for consultation with the | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
sector and students as part of the regulatory framework consultation | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
later this year, and we would expect it to include information on how and | :39:07. | :39:08. | |
when a provider should refer students to student protection plan, | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
for example during suspension of registration, and it would be wrong | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
to pre-empt the consultation by including these measures in the Bill | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
itself. But could I seek to reassure noble Lords who have spoken in this | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
today that the measures that I have just referred to could include four | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
example provision to teach a course to the end for existing students, | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
offering students alternative courses at the same situation, | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
making arrangements for affected students to switch to a different | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
provider without having to start their course from scratch, and in | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
response to an issue raised by the noble lord Watson, measures to | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
compensate affected students financially. And I hope that those | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
examples provide some reassurance to noble Lords that we do have in mind | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
the contingency arrangements that they have outlined in this debate. | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
Clause 17 of the Bill places a clear duty on the OFS to notify through | :40:04. | :40:09. | |
its maintenance of the register when a provider has been suspended, and a | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
similar duty is imposed on the OFS in clauses 19 and 23 when providers | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
are deregistered. The OFS already has the power given in clause 72 | :40:20. | :40:27. | |
require a provider's governing body to make sure that students are | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
informed about the action. However, widespread publicity of preliminary | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
plans measures may not always be appropriate in every case. Before | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
the OFS can impose a sanction of suspension and deregistration, it | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
must notify a provider of its intent to do so, unless an urgent | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
suspension is being imposed, and then allow the provider to argue its | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
case or put the matter right. As I'm sure noble Lords will agree, the | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
desired outcome for the benefit of students and the providers alike is | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
that the provider takes the actions necessary to ensure that they comply | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
with the conditions of registration that have been placed upon them, and | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
so no further action would then be required. There are also important | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
matters of confidentiality at play here. A key concern has previously | :41:14. | :41:22. | |
been raised. HE providers would not wish the OFS to announce that they | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
were carrying out an investigation into a provider, as this could lead | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
to unnecessary whippy day shall damage. If the OFS subsequently | :41:29. | :41:38. | |
decided not to take action. -- unnecessary reputational damage. | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
This would not in our view generally be helpful or appropriate to | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
students, and it is the inclusion of the words intention to that I find | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
difficulty with in Amendment 50 six. My lords, an Amendment 57, I have | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
listened to the thoughtful debate we have had this evening, and indeed I | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
have read the debates in the Other Place on the issue of student | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
transfer. We have tabled an amendment, number 100, on this | :42:08. | :42:09. | |
important issue, which we have already discussed. Our amendment | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
will acquire the OFS to monitor and report on student transfer | :42:16. | :42:17. | |
arrangements by the registered higher education providers, and it | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
will empower the OFS to facilitate, encourage or promote awareness of | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
these arrangements. In doing so, the Government is creating the | :42:28. | :42:29. | |
conditions to allow the necessary flexibility for students to make the | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
right choices for themselves, and to have control over those decisions | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
whatever the reason for their transfer. The amendment that is | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
proposed, which noble Lords have spoken to, would result in the OFS | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
trying to make arrangements for students to be placed on other | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
courses if their current course closed. However, the decision of | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
what courses to offer falls within the institutional autonomy of each | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
provider, and while I recognise the importance of students being able to | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
transfer, particularly where their institution ceases to offer their | :43:03. | :43:05. | |
planned learning, it is not and nor should it be the OFS's gift to | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
determine whether students and institutions accept students from | :43:12. | :43:13. | |
elsewhere. This has never been the role undertaken by the OFS's | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
predecessor, and there is no intention for it to be taken on by | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
the OFS, so it must surely be preferable for the sector to be in | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
control of transfer processes, including where appropriate as part | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
of the student protection plan, and for the OFS to play a greater role | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
in facilitating and encouraging the availability and take-up of such | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
arrangements. And in response to my noble friend Lord Norton who was | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
concerned that students want to know what protections they have, we have | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
listened to concerns on this issue, and that is why in the Other Place | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
we brought forward an amendment to require plans to be published, and | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
therefore brought to the students' attention, and so this balanced | :43:57. | :43:58. | |
approach is what our amendment sought to achieve, and against that | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
background, I would ask the noble Lords to withdraw Amendment 50 five. | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
He did give the impression of a man thrashing around in a deep pool | :44:10. | :44:18. | |
there, desperately trying to find something to cling onto and I have | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
to say I did not find his arguments convincing. I did say when I was | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
moving this group of amendments that it has been stated time and again | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
that the government wanted students at the centre of the whole of this | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
bill. I will quote it now, clause 18 said that when a decision is to | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
suspend the provider's registration the notice must specify the date on | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
which the suspension takes a fake, the effective purposes, the medial | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
conditions at any and maintain the grounds of the suspension, it does | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
not specify what happened to students during the suspension | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
period. Why not? How would hinder any institution if that was placed | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
on the face of the bill? It is surely the sort of thing that | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
students are entitled to know, when the institution is getting into | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
difficulty and I don't see why it should provide any difficulty at | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
all. I have to say I did enjoy the analogy drawn by the noble Baroness | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
with this bill and the technical and further education Bill, which is she | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
said, is about the insolvencies of further education colleges and for | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
the avoidance of any doubt, the minister in charge of the bill has | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
ensured noble Lords that will never happen either so we are to believe | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
that there is no greater chance of it happening in the further | :45:43. | :45:45. | |
education sector and yet three quarters of the bill is about | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
insolvency. It would have been helpful if the vehicle used for | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
dealing with insolvencies in the further education Bill, the special | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
education administrator, had some equivalent in this bill because it | :46:00. | :46:02. | |
will be the case that situations will arise where he or she, or that | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
kind of role is necessary and it cannot be carried out just by the | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
office for students. To some extent, without having that particular | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
person provided for in the bill, this section of it, in terms of | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
colleges, further education students getting into difficulty, there is no | :46:24. | :46:30. | |
such equivalent in higher education and we are left with a section of | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
the bill which is rather like Hamlet without the prince. No one will be | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
appointed by the court in this section and that is the difference | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
between this and the further education Bill. He talked about | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
draft guidance for consultations with staff and students on when a | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
student protection plan becomes effective but the amendments here | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
are not about pre-empting, we're talking about a situation after the | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
college has got into difficulties and it is about reacting to that, | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
not anticipating it. I think it is important that different is | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
understood. I have to say to the Minister that particularly in | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
relation to Amendment 57, which we certainly welcome support from both | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
the crossbenchers and government benches, we have made it easier for | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
the office for students because the wording says that the authors must | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
seek to make arrangements for the students about provider to be | :47:31. | :47:32. | |
offered places on a similar course with another higher education | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
provided. We could have omitted the word seek to. We had been helpful to | :47:38. | :47:45. | |
the government by only suggesting the OFS should seek to do that. I | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
take the point that some students would not like to be told by the | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
OFS, sorry, your University is closed, here is where you will go as | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
of next week. That is not the way I would envisage it happening, it | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
would be about choices. The noble Lord talk about student choices and | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
they should as far as possible be provided by the OFS. They have the | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
overall responsibility as the regulator and therefore they should | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
be able to say to students, you are without a class at the moment, this | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
is what we suggest. I acknowledge the point that the noble Baroness | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
said that there will be cases where colleges are very local and students | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
are not willing to travel to the next town or another part if it were | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
London to complete their studies and on that basis they might decide that | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
not completing the Saudis is possible but they should have | :48:37. | :48:43. | |
choices. I find it very surprising, and I come back to this, students | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
being at the centre of this bill and get the OFS is not to be allowed to | :48:48. | :48:51. | |
seek to provide options for them to continue studies. I think that is a | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
real failing of the government's commitment and I think we should be | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
asking what is the real commitment in the interests of students and | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
that should be the test. The test to which we should put it is to test | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
the opinion of the house. The question is that this and would be | :49:13. | :49:22. | |
agreeing to -- agreed to. I think the not contents. Be not contents | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
it. Amendment 50 six. Amendment 57, Lord | :49:27. | :49:40. | |
Stevenson not moved. On this amendment, and apologise for | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
previous confusion, I wish to test the opinion of the house. The | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
question is that this amendment be agreed to. I think the knot contents | :49:49. | :50:00. | |
habit. Clear the bar. -- with the knot | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
The question is that Amendment 57 Rugby agreed to. -- be agreed to. | :50:05. | :53:17. | |
The contents will go to the right by the throne, the not contents to the | :53:18. | :53:19. | |
left by the bar. The question is that amendment 57 be | :53:20. | :59:53. | |
agreed to. Contents 36, not contents 138, so | :59:54. | :01:13. | |
the not content to Mac have it. Amendments 58 and 59 moved formerly. | :01:14. | :01:37. | |
The question is that amendments 58 and 59 be approved on block. The | :01:38. | :01:47. | |
contents have it. Amendment 60, not moved. Amendment 61, not moved. I | :01:48. | :01:57. | |
beg to move that further consideration on report be now | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
adjourned. The question is that further consideration on report be | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
now adjourned. As many as are of that opinion say content. Contrary, | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
not contents. The contents have it. And I beg to move the House do now | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
adjourned. That the House do now adjourned. | :02:15. | :03:24. | |
My lords, I beg leave to ask the question standing in my name on the | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
order paper, and in doing so I declare my interest is chair of the | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
Leeds University Law schools advisory board. My lords, as the | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
legal profession in England and Wales and the bodies that regulate | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
it are independent from Government, we have not made any assessment | :03:45. | :03:45. |