Browse content similar to 10/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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On the homeless this reduction Bill. -- homelessness. I understand no | :00:48. | :00:56. | |
amendments have been set down to this bill and no noble lord has | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
indicated a wish to move a manuscript and or speak to | :01:01. | :01:09. | |
committee. Although I understand maybe from the Labour frontbenchers | :01:10. | :01:10. | |
a question is to be asked. Unless therefore any noble Lord | :01:11. | :01:31. | |
objects, I'd bid to move that the mood of commitment be discharged. | :01:32. | :01:40. | |
The question is that the commitment to the discharge. I will be brief at | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
I want to congratulate the noble Lord and the government with | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
succeeding with this bill which is very welcome indeed. I hope the | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
noble lord could take the opportunity after the bill passes | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
which it will, to take up a couple of points with the government, not | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
immediately, perhaps. A report has been published this week which | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
raises a point about paragraph 18 on the code of practice, which raises a | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
point about the revision of codes and the method in doing that. | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
Obviously I'm not expecting any kind of formal response today, but may be | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
the noble Lord could look at this and maybe he could also, in a short | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
time, be able to invite the government to say how it is going to | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
approach viewing the funding of ?61 million in the light of possible | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
increased numbers of homelessness rising because of the housing | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
benefit issue which has been so controversial this week. Again I'm | :02:46. | :02:55. | |
not expecting the noble Lord to provide the answer but this is | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
something which should be looked at in the next period. Could I add our | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
thanks to the noble Lord, Lord Best, for his work on the bill which has | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
been appreciated within the parliament and also outside and I | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
think it shows that the amount of work done prior to the presentation | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
of a bill both in the other place and here, reaps rewards, because the | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
bill is a very sound bill and I would like to pay tribute to noble | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
Lord bold Best for his work on this which has got us to the position we | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
are in -- Lord Best. I thank you for your kind remarks. I will certainly | :03:35. | :03:46. | |
undertake to speak with the noble Lord, the minister, about the | :03:47. | :03:55. | |
question you raise, the review as to whether the sums allocated to find | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
the homelessness reduction Bill is sufficient, that review will happen | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
after the end of the first year of operation and before the end of the | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
second year of operation so that before two years are up we will know | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
whether enough money has been made available to make the homelessness | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
bill reduction really happen, and if insufficient funds have been | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
available I will be the first to be saying that. With those remarks, I | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
beg to move that the order of commitment be discharged. The | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
question is that the order of commitment be discharged. As many of | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
that opinion will say content, to the country not content. The | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
contemporary macro have it. -- the contents have it. I understand no | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
members have been set down to this bill and that no noble Lord has | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
indicated a wish to move a manuscript the moment or to speak in | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
the committee. Unless therefore any noble Lord objects I beg to move | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
that the order of commitment be discharged. The question is that the | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
order of commitment be discharged, as many of that opinion will say | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
content and to the contrary not content. The contents have it. ... I | :05:13. | :05:30. | |
beg to move that the Bill be now we are | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
the bill be now read a second time. Combating violence against women and | :05:34. | :05:45. | |
domestic pilots, -- domestic violence, has been guided through | :05:46. | :05:53. | |
conviction in the other place, and it has the purpose of unblocking the | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
logjam which has thus far delayed the ratification of the Council of | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Europe Convention on preventing and combating violence against women and | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
domestic violence. Better known as the Istanbul convention. It also | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
puts on the statutory footing important mechanisms to hold the | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
government to account on the progress towards ratification. The | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
UK signed the convention in June 2012 having played an important role | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
in the negotiating and drafting of it and previous governments | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
including a range of new legislation that prepares the UK from compliance | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
with the treaty. And repeating verbal commitments to the principal | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
ratification, the progress has been stalled, and maybe five years on | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
remains are ratified. The Istanbul convention is a unique | :06:50. | :06:51. | |
ground-breaking piece of international legislation which | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
enshrines the basic human rights of a woman and girls to live free from | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
violence in both public and private sphere. My lords, preventing | :07:01. | :07:07. | |
violence against women and domestic violence can save lives and reduce | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
human suffering. The convention focus on three important aims. To | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
prevent violence against women, to prevent victims and survivors of | :07:16. | :07:23. | |
abuse and prosecute perpetrators, and it brings greater coherence and | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
consistency and strategic direction to the important work already | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
undertaken by organisations, communities and governments that aim | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
to eliminate all forms of violence and discrimination against women. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
And promote equality between women and men. It has been hailed as a | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
best piece of international policy and practice for eliminating | :07:51. | :07:52. | |
violence against women that exists anywhere. It is a first piece of | :07:53. | :07:58. | |
legislation that sets minimum standards for government responses | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
and victims and survivors, of gender-based violence. The Istanbul | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
convention is broad in scope and the aims are very specific. Covering | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
criminal, civil and migration law, it sets minimum standards for the | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
protection of survivors and for access to services. Governments will | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
try to ratify the Convention and they are required to prevent | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
violence and bring about an attitude change. It covers many | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
manifestations of gender-based violence including physical and | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
psychological abuse. Stalking, sexual violence including rape, | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
forced marriages, female genital mutilation and the so-called honour | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
crimes. The Istanbul convention is unique in that it understands that | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
states cannot be responsible for preventing bail and is against women | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
and domestic violence on their own. -- preventing violence. It calls on | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
communities to tackle cross-border issues, because it wants members of | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
society to reach the ultimate goal of a world free from all forms of | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
islands against women and domestic violence. It recognises that women | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
are disproportionately affected by sexual and domestic violence because | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
underlying gender inequalities which are also compounded by abuse, the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
convention also places an emphasis on challenging misogynistic | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
attitudes that perpetrate the gender inequality as a means of preventing | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
violence and abuse. Preventative measures are not the only important | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
issue. Protecting victims and survivors and providing them with | :09:47. | :09:47. | |
appropriate support is vital. State that ratified the Istanbul | :09:48. | :09:57. | |
convention are required to ensure that sufficient shelters exist in | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
adequate geographical distribution. Ratifying the Istanbul convention | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
will put a duty on the government to ensure that women's refuge is exist | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
and provide support at a time when women need it most. It also puts a | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
statutory footing on the provision of rape crisis centres, 24 hour | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
advice lines, and access to useful information. The Council of Europe | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
says that it should be borne in mind that it is not enough to set up | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
protection structures and support services for victims, it is equally | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
important to make sure that victims are informed of their rights and | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
know how and where to get help. I do believe that this important | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
consideration, that anyone can be a victim of sexual violence or | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
domestic abuse, regardless of economic background, age, ethnic | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
religion or gender, however we know that there are certain | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
characteristics that increased the risks. For example, poorer women or, | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
or disabled women are at a greater risk of domestic abuse. Women from | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
some ethnic minorities or cultural backgrounds are at greater risk of | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
certain forms of gender-based violence. My Lords, one question is | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
asked frequently, what about the men? I would like to deal with this | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
because this was a point of contention in the other place. The | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
convention itself quite explicitly addresses this issue in Article four | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
where it makes clear that the provision applies to all persons, | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
regardless of gender, and a whole range of other protected | :11:48. | :11:49. | |
characteristics, however the convention primarily focuses on | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
women, and it is important that it does because sexual violence and | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
domestic abuse affect women to a hugely disproportionate extent. Both | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
in terms of prevalence and severity, in England and Wales in 2015 over 90 | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
2% of the prosecutions brought for domestic abuse involved a male | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
perpetrators and the female victim. Two women are weak die at the hands | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
of their partner or their former partner. This does not mean that | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
those crimes committed by women against men, or men against men are | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
less serious. They are serious, but to ignore the gender dynamic of | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
these types of crime would be wrong. One woman in four in the UK will | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
experience sexual or domestic by a sin their lifetime. The sheer scale | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
of the problem does demand that we take this much more experience. The | :12:47. | :12:54. | |
joint committee of human rights in their report of 2014/15 entitled | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
violence against women and girls recommended that the UK Government | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
ratified the Istanbul convention. They raised concerns at a time that | :13:03. | :13:10. | |
the internal ministry group had insufficient powers with witnesses | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
to the committee criticising the group for not taking a holistic | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
approach towards ending violence against women and girls because of | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
the lack of representation from immigration officials. The Asylum | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
aid recommended at the time that the Immigration Minister and the UK Visa | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
and immigration department should have representations on the groups | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
to ensure that the issues arising in these areas were dealt with | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
effectively. I would appreciate if the Minister would write a response | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
today or later but I would like to see these issues addressed. On the | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
24th of November last year I asked the Minister kept -- question in | :13:54. | :14:01. | |
your Lordships house, whether the government had ratified the Istanbul | :14:02. | :14:03. | |
convention and when did they intend to do so? The minister in -- the | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
Minister said at the time that the government was committed to | :14:09. | :14:10. | |
ratifying but in order to do so they would need to legislate to take | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
extra terrestrial jurisdiction over a wide range of offences. --. I am | :14:16. | :14:28. | |
sorry, extraterritorial. Did I get that wrong? I thank the laws for | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
taking that and pointing it out because I took that rather wider | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
than I intended to do so. Thank you very much for correcting me! I shall | :14:38. | :14:46. | |
now refer to that of the TJ, I think it will be a lot easier. -- as ETJ. | :14:47. | :14:57. | |
The fact that perpetrators can evade prosecution by committing crimes as | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
abhorrent as grape whilst abroad should stop. There is a precedent on | :15:01. | :15:07. | |
ETJ, the government already exercises such power for similar | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
offences committed against children overseas and exercises ETJ in a | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
range of other areas, for a example in relation to drugs offences, | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
financial crime, terrorism and other forms of organised crime. I am | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
pleased to see that the Prime Minister has committed herself to | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
overseeing a new bill on domestic buyer and is and I do hope that such | :15:30. | :15:37. | |
legislation will include the changes necessary to bring the UK into line | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
with article 44 of the Istanbul convention. That is those in | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
relation to ETJ. When a minister replies I wonder if she could | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
outline the intent of this new legislation on whether in fact it | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
will allow the government to take over the necessary offences, | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
ensuring the UK are compliant with the convention, thereby paving the | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
way for ratification. There is real need for action in the effort when | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
violence against women. Two women are weak or killed by their partners | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
or former partners in England and where is alone -- two women are per | :16:16. | :16:26. | |
week. In the same time frame across the UK 87,000 500 rapes and more | :16:27. | :16:34. | |
than 400,000 sexual assaults were reported to the police. It is | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
well-known that most cases of sexual assault and rape do go unreported so | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
we cannot underestimate the scale of the impact on women and children in | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
our communities. There is clearly a need for action. The UN special | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
report on violence against women has said that violence against women and | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
girls is the most pervasive human rights violation we face globally. | :17:01. | :17:07. | |
Whether in times of peace, conflict or post-conflict transition. It is | :17:08. | :17:14. | |
so normalised that we can hardly even noticed how much we put up with | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
and I was moved by some of the contributions from members on the | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
other place who spoke courageously of their own experience and it does | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
affect us all. The violence against women is not natural and not | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
inevitable so can I now turn to the specifics of the bill before us? It | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
is made up of three clauses, it requires the secretary of state to | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
report to both houses on the steps that is being taken to enable the UK | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
to ratify the Convention. It requires the government to come | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
forward with a timetable by which it will ratify the convention. I am | :17:50. | :17:56. | |
pleased with the manner in which the noble man -- baroness, the minister, | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
met with me this week and before that to discuss this bill in the | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
run-up to the debate and I welcome the government support for this | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
bill. Clause one recommends that the secretary of state should lay report | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
to both houses of parliament setting out the steps necessary to ratify. I | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
understand that this is not only including passing legislation | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
through both houses, but also the devolved administrations in Scotland | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
and Northern Ireland. I know the government are committed to working | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
with a devolved administration and I welcome that commitment. Clause two | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
requires the government to make annual reports to both houses on the | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
progress towards ratification no later than the 1st of November in | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
each year leading up to the ratification. This report comes with | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
a commitment from the government to make an oral statement to Parliament | :18:51. | :18:58. | |
so that MPs can hold the government to account. The convention commits | :18:59. | :19:09. | |
the government to thorough reporting requirements through annual reports | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
to the Council of Europe's expert group. It is important that | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
parliamentarians have opportunities to scrutinise this report. The | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
committee stage in the Commons the government committed to make an oral | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
statement on the compliance with the convention post-ratification. I | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
would be grateful if the Minister could make a similar commitment so | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
that these issues can be debated in your Lordships house, rather than | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
perhaps a report put in the Lords library. The report is a short and | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
simple one, but it has proved to be an important one which will unlock | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
the logjam in the government department. I do hope that it will | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
lead to the ratification as soon as possible. We have the opportunity in | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
this place to shape and develop legislation but we do need to take | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
the license of our responsibilities as well. I have been heartened by | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
the powerful civic society movement of women and men across the UK who | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
have campaigned for the UK to ratify the convention. The breadth of | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
support from organisations and activists show the strength of | :20:25. | :20:32. | |
feeling that is on this issue. There is a very inspiring campaign run by | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
volunteers which has helped to mobilise thousands of people the | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
length and breadth of the country, to engage with MPs in order to get | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
this bill through this place. I feel the women who have led this campaign | :20:45. | :20:54. | |
should be very proud. It is often important that they are out there in | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
front of issues such as this. Women activists have campaigned and | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
Parliament needs to try and keep up with it. In the other place the bill | :21:01. | :21:07. | |
was at Birtley stupidly -- was expertly Steward lay in the face of | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
some adversity but the overwhelming cross-party support from the | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
opposition and the government benches, we have the opportunity of | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
oversight towards ratification and the timetable, albeit hopefully | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
short, within which this can be achieved. My Lords, I beg to move. | :21:29. | :21:36. | |
The question is that this bill now be read a second time. | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
I congratulate the noble lady for bringing forward this bill and | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
opening it so admirably and comprehensively. Yesterday afternoon | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
when I enquired in the whips office how many were down to speak on this | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
debate I was somewhat surprised, and really rather shocked, to find there | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
were in fact then only five are now six and that they included not a | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
single male temporal peer, and so I put my name down because heaven | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
knows this is a worthy and a compelling cause and it is deserving | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
of support is no less from men than from women. My Lords, we all know | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
the appalling prevalence still today of violence towards women, both | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
domestic and in wider society. I sat as a judge at various levels for 28 | :22:32. | :22:39. | |
years and I therefore came across perhaps more than my fair share of | :22:40. | :22:45. | |
this violence, particularly in my earlier years as a High Court judge, | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
sitting at the Old Bailey and then around the country on the circuit. | :22:51. | :22:56. | |
Murder, rapes, all of those dreadful sorts of offences. My Lords, I have | :22:57. | :23:06. | |
few boasts to my name, by way of legal achievement, few jewels in my | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
judicial crown, but I can and I do boast of being the first judge in | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
this jurisdiction in, I think it was 1990, to rule that a husband is not | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
permitted in law to have intercourse with his wife quite simply | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
whensoever he chooses. In short, that there is such an offence as | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
marital rape, a decision said at the time initially to fly in the face of | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
centuries of established legal principle, but which, in fact, | :23:40. | :23:45. | |
happily was then upheld both by the Court of Appeal and by the appeal | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
committee in your Lordships house. My Lords, reading the excellent | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
Doctor Whiteford speech towards the end of the debate in the other place | :23:57. | :24:06. | |
on third reading, I was struck by this particular passage. If your | :24:07. | :24:14. | |
Lordships will allow me, I will quote it from column 1334 of | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
Hansard. She said this, on reflection, it strikes me powerfully | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
that Parliament has frequently be left playing catch up on progress | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
for women from those who campaigned for women's suffrage for more than a | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
century before it was achieved to the trade unionists who fought for | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
equal pay for women years before the equal pay act 1970 came into force | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
on the women who in the 1970s setup rep futures -- refuges for women | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
fleeing domestic abuse at a time when there was absolutely no support | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
from the state or the authorities for women experiencing violence or | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
coercive control from an intimate partner, a time when rape within | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
marriage was not even a crime, every step of the way it is citizens who | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
have driven progressive change, sisters have had to do it for | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
themselves. Well, my Lords, I thought it was time for a brother to | :25:11. | :25:12. | |
enter the fray. Of course I recognise as Mr Nuttall | :25:13. | :25:26. | |
emphasise in the debate in the other emphasise in the debate in the other | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
place, that there is all too much violence in society and indeed in | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
certain domestic contexts against men and boys, as well. And that the | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
Istanbul convention and therefore this bill on its face appeared to do | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
nothing for them. But there can be no doubt as the Nobel baroness made | :25:48. | :25:55. | |
plain, it is women who suffer disproportionately, they suffer most | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
from the hands of the opposite sex and there is no basis for suggesting | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
that advancing their cause as this bill proposes will set back the | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
cause of male victims, quite the reverse. Anything that raises the | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
stakes and raises the public's awareness of and revulsion at | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
violence generally in society will redound to the advantage of all the | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
victims. My lords, of course I recognise that this bill and indeed | :26:29. | :26:38. | |
the Istanbul convention itself, of itself does little in the way of | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
altering the substantive law under which we seek to deter and control | :26:43. | :26:52. | |
violence against women. But to say it does nothing is in fact only an | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
exaggeration, the convention requires we broaden our juristic -- | :26:57. | :27:03. | |
juristic -- do restriction. And that is why we have to recognise | :27:04. | :27:17. | |
now as it does the need for some small further delay be on even the | :27:18. | :27:27. | |
years since we initially signed it. To the delay, is to identify | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
precisely and then to satisfy this requirement for extraterritorial | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
juristic but as Mr Nuttall himself said in the other place, the purpose | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
is to try to tie down the government, to do something and to | :27:48. | :27:56. | |
stop this matter from drifting on. As has already been noted in the | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
other place, they voted to pass this bill by a votes to just one, and you | :28:02. | :28:08. | |
will readily agree that it will be nothing sort of disgraceful and | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
indeed deeply damaging to the reputation of this house if we don't | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
now make sure that it secures safe and speedy passage at all stages | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
through our house. Therefore we wish it God speed to secure its early | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
passage if not in this session than certainly in the next. My lords, we | :28:29. | :28:36. | |
want to give our wholehearted support to this bill. I've been | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
following this issue for some while and have participated in previous | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
debates and put down questions. I want to congratulate the doctor in | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
the other place and the baroness for the hard work they and others have | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
done to get it so far and indeed to the many agencies getting the bill | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
to us today. In the face of a number of cutbacks and closures of women's | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
services and refugees, we need a step change -- refuges. We should be | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
giving a lead on this important area, violence against women is a | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
tragic evil because it the effects can be so devastating and | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
long-lasting and widespread. Evil not simply because it is violence | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
but because it seeks to deny a fundamental human dignity which I | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
believe comes from being created in the image of God, and whatever form | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
the violence comes in, rape or forced marriage or psychological or | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
physical abuse, gender-based violence against women in therapy | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
attempts to reduce women to passive objects -- invariably. It seeks to | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
deny them the status of personhood. As a safe place of council within | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
every local community, the church often finds itself on the front | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
line, listening to the stories of women who have faced violence and | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
who don't know where else to turn. It is one of the greatest and | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
hardest privileges of priesthood to listen to a woman or indeed | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
sometimes to a man, although this is overwhelmingly an issue for women | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
and we must not underplay that, although we want to make sure men | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
are given protection. This must not distract us from this important | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
bill. When we hear someone telling their story of abuse, sometimes for | :30:42. | :30:47. | |
the very first time, sometimes only just beginning to realise that | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
actually for all sorts of social reasons they have actually colluded | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
with it and they now beginning to realise it is simply wrong. And the | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
need to then help them find the right support which is profoundly | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
difficult especially in places, like rural areas. I want to pay tribute | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
to the many organisations who are working with churches and helping us | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
up and down the country responding to violence against women. But those | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
churches that are supporting, sometimes offering premises and | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
funding, for refuges, and especially a Christian charity whose work in | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
training clergy is invaluable. The baroness has already rehearsed some | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
of the statistics and I won't say those again, although I want to note | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
how horrific they are when one stops and looks at what is actually still | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
going on. There are other areas which have not been picked up in | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
here and in the past I put down questions about, for example, how | :31:53. | :31:59. | |
many young women under the age of marriage in this country are being | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
taken abroad and are marrying and are coming back to this country and | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
it turns out that we have no idea. We have no idea how many such women | :32:08. | :32:15. | |
are coming back having been married under laws overseas will stop | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
sometimes possibly polygamists... We just don't know. In recent years the | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
government has made substantial progress on legislating against a | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
gender-based violence and I want to pay tribute to our Prime Minister | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
who all sides of this house will agree has worked tirelessly in her | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
Home Secretary to address many of Home Secretary to address many of | :32:43. | :32:49. | |
the key legislative areas. Legislation to combat forced | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
marriage, female genital mutilation, modern slavery, controlling | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
behaviour and stalking. And although that legislation shows that UK one | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
of the strongest legislative frameworks in the word, the Prime | :33:04. | :33:12. | |
Minister's work as Home Secretary to improve police reporting and | :33:13. | :33:15. | |
responding to domestic abuse is also to be celebrated and commended. In | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
that context it is regrettable that this bill is required, given that | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
Her Majesty's government has repeatedly stated commitment to | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
ratifying the convention. In answer to a series of written questions in | :33:30. | :33:33. | |
2014 after the convention came into force, the government said justice | :33:34. | :33:40. | |
ministers are considering the extent to which we need to amend the | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
criminal law of England and Wales full compliance with Article 44 | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
prior to ratification of the convention -- for. Three years later | :33:50. | :33:56. | |
the justice ministers are still deliberating. That is a failure in | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
the political will ultimately. Being charitable to the government, we | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
could say there have been a few political distractions over the past | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
year. However I do hope that the new reporting requirements will | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
encourage the government to throw their weight unreservedly behind | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
this legislative change that is required for ratification and this | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
issue of territorial jurisdiction in particular. Ratification of the | :34:27. | :34:32. | |
Istanbul convention will not only bolster the domestic framework for | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
combating violence against women, acting as a tool by which civil | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
society can hold the government to account on the provision of | :34:42. | :34:43. | |
resources to combat gender-based violence. Our ratification of the | :34:44. | :34:52. | |
convention also has an international dimension as the joint committee on | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
human rights put it, the delay in ratifying the Istanbul convention | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
could harm the UK's international reputation as a world leader in | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
combating violence against women and girls. Ratification of the | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
convention would be the clearest signal of our commitment to ending | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
the injustice of gender-based violence. It would commit us to | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
sharing best practice internationally and it would | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
strengthen the Istanbul convention itself as a marker by which other | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
countries might be held to account. I sincerely hope that the government | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
gives this bill a swift passage through the house and that it | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
follows the passage of this bill within equally swift timetable for | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
ratification of the Istanbul convention. My Lords, I welcome | :35:45. | :35:56. | |
today's second reading and congratulate the doctor and her | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
colleagues in the other place and the baroness for their persistence | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
in getting us here to this point. This pernicious abuse of women's | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
rights continues to plague our society. Almost regarded as a | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
households. It transcends all households. It transcends all | :36:12. | :36:17. | |
communities, shockingly, so many women seem not to know still that it | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
is against the law, so in deed an internationally recognised provision | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
will lend significant armoury to the many women, human rights defenders, | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
as well as instruct in no uncertain terms still largely male lead | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
institutions that eradication of violence against women is as | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
important as providing education, health, housing, and not able to | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
hide behind the austerity measures and will not be able to make women's | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
refuge and other services their first collateral. Whilst we should | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
take pride in the UK in having secured some of the best policies | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
and practices on domestic violence, including the introduction of new | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
domestic abuse offences and protection orders and criminalising | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
forced marriages with which I don't agree, but it appears to be doing | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
its job. And more vigorous laws on female genital mutilation. We need | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
to go further in providing protection to those facing violence | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
and seek to eliminate violence against women. We have tolerated | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
consecutive generations of violence to plague women's lives, two women | :37:43. | :37:55. | |
facing death each week. 1.2 million victims, 87,000 rapes reported on | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
top of 400,000 sexual assaults, God alone knows how many women are still | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
not able to report. In addition to 11,900 children raped last year. 29% | :38:08. | :38:17. | |
of all these statistics are from the BA ME communities and despite the | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
progress of women's Emancipation, our daughters and granddaughters are | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
still facing a level of barbaric violence in our society and we have | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
to do everything we can to make sure it does not continue. The UK's role | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
in shaping the Istanbul convention was significant so I don't | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
understand five views since passed why we have not chosen to ratify it. | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
I'm glad to have arrived at this point where government is prepared | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
to work towards compliance. It is ratification indicating a very | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
powerful step towards in power -- empowerment of women? As well as | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
push for a more comprehensive response to addressing violence, it | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
gives victims and survivors right for access to the necessary | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
specialist services and ratifying the convention adds another layer of | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
protection and enables local and international agencies to respond | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
more comprehensively and offer parliamentarians another aspect of | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
Why would we not do it without any help with the harmonisation of laws. | :39:31. | :39:46. | |
Why would we not do it without any hesitation? The points that have | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
been made about extrajudicial territorial requirements, I think | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
that many women, I was involved in the dowry enquiry led by Mr Sharma | :39:57. | :40:05. | |
in the other place last year and a huge amount of British citizens were | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
complaining either that their marriages were not legally | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
recognised in this country, and when they were facing violence they had | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
no recourse to law, or that the laws under which they were married under | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
one country is not recognised in this country and I think that that | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
level of harmonisation would, I hope, be an integral part of this. | :40:27. | :40:36. | |
We do have laws and are continuing -- continuously improving on | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
implementation. The Istanbul convention can be another layer of | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
safety. We are a signatory and we now need to show that we are serious | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
about eradication of violence by signing up to it. I believe that the | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
ratification we demonstrate, I believe that by ratification we | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
demonstrate our total commitment to all men and women that violence in | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
all its forms is not tolerable in our society today. This will be an | :41:04. | :41:12. | |
integrated approach to not only protect women but laws and mandates | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
and institutions to provide the necessary services so that women and | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
girls can live free of fear of violence. Finally I am confident | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
that our ambition is safe in the hands of our current Prime Minister | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
and the noble Lord, the Minister, who has done so much to advocate and | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
advance the previous progress made on this issue. Can the Minister say | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
what the implication of the Brexit negotiation would be on reporting | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
requirement or signing up to the ratification? My Lords, I, too, | :41:45. | :41:54. | |
would like to thank the doctor and the noble Baroness, who I am sure | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
did not wish to success that Scotland and Northern Ireland are | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
not an integrated to part of the United Kingdom. The noble and | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
Leonard Lord, Lord Browne, has rightly reminded us that this is a | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
people's issue, not just a women's issue. His crown is highly polished | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
and very bejewelled! I should declare an interest. I was a member | :42:20. | :42:28. | |
of the board and a chair of the domestic fire and charity refuge. | :42:29. | :42:35. | |
That was many years ago but I still declare the interest, because that | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
experience was very vivid. Very recently, within the last few days, | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
I have agreed to become a member of an advisory group for the | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
organisation case macro voice for victims. It struck me that this | :42:50. | :42:59. | |
debate may be wrapped up with the debate for International Women's | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
Day, which was on the UK's role of promoting gender equality. Because | :43:04. | :43:06. | |
of the significance of the exercise of the UK's role it would be very | :43:07. | :43:13. | |
significant if the UK ratified the convention. I should not put it | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
grammatically in that way. It will be significant when it does. Reports | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
on violence against women often have a section headed something like, | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
what is violence against women and girls? Sadly there are very many | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
women and girls who could testify. This week a survey of laws in the 73 | :43:38. | :43:48. | |
countries found that there are bad laws underpinning a global epidemic | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
of sexual violence. The aims of the convention, prevention, protection | :43:55. | :44:03. | |
and prosecution and integrating policies are so sensible as to | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
hardly need any description. They have only been, I think ten | :44:08. | :44:21. | |
ratification so far. I joined the board of refuge when I was asked to | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
come to a house ten years ago and attitudes in the UK have changed but | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
not as much as one may expect in a generation. They seem to me to have | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
changed very often among senior people who have to deal with the | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
issue, to take the police is one example, left so in lower ranks. | :44:42. | :44:51. | |
Some of us were privileged to hear DC see Louisa Wolf from the West | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
Midlands talk about coercive control at an all-party group meeting | :44:58. | :45:04. | |
recently. Her understanding and her description were very impressive | :45:05. | :45:10. | |
indeed. I say that there haven't been the changes one might expect in | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
a generation. Though the importance of the issue is so enormous, and yet | :45:18. | :45:28. | |
there is a lack of belief, a lack of understanding. Can I complement the | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
noble Baroness on raising the issue or people's attitudes. I declare an | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
interest in night in the 1970s I was with a group of people as a local | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
councillor, trying to establish a refuge provision. I was invited from | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
the council I was unimpressed and to go and speak to senior members at | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
Chorley Council and the then leader of Chorley Council finished the | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
meeting by saying he was absolutely appalled that men in Preston behaved | :46:07. | :46:13. | |
like this, because, of course, they didn't in Chorley. Another | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
councillor came to speak to me and said her son-in-law has embarrassed | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
her and her daughter had complained of being a victim and the daughters | :46:26. | :46:37. | |
father would not believe that a barrister could behave like this. -- | :46:38. | :46:47. | |
her son was a barrister. The wide range of areas this can come from. | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
Magister mine house, that interruption should be very brief. I | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
am grateful for that interruption. I was about to say that one often | :47:00. | :47:08. | |
hears that it does not happen here. The lack of understanding, | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
understanding that what is happening is a crime, is very sadly shared | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
among those who experience that crime. My Lords, I am a member of | :47:19. | :47:26. | |
the joint committee on human rights which, in 2015, undertook an enquiry | :47:27. | :47:35. | |
to examine progress towards ratification in the noble Baroness | :47:36. | :47:45. | |
referred to that. Its report told Lordships that the convention would | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
have a strong, indirect effect on the UK legal system, firstly in that | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
it could be cited by the UK courts as persuasive authority and secondly | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
through the role of the European Court of Human Rights, given that | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
the government is bound by its judgment and, therefore, the terms | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
of the convention could have a strong, indirect effect on the UK | :48:15. | :48:26. | |
legal system. The report also commented on some of the evidence | :48:27. | :48:33. | |
that it had obtained. Witnesses had told the committee that ratification | :48:34. | :48:42. | |
would help the UK's position internationally in tackling violence | :48:43. | :48:44. | |
against women and girls and would encourage other countries to follow | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
suit. The bar human rights committee of England and will said that | :48:51. | :48:59. | |
ratification would emphasise the state 's positive duty and it would | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
provide a further basis in law for those who wished to persuade the | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
state to provide adequate and meaningful resources to construct an | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
effective mechanism to protect women from gender violence and harm. That, | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
of course, does raise the question, is that a resource issue behind this | :49:19. | :49:26. | |
which may not have been acknowledged in the same way as the concerns | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
about the devolved institutions. I hope that the Minister can assure us | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
that there is not a devolved resource component to this | :49:38. | :49:48. | |
precluding ratification. The evidence from the Minister to the | :49:49. | :49:56. | |
committee referred to the ratification being a matter for the | :49:57. | :50:06. | |
devolved administrations. Let us not seek to avoid any responsibility | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
ourselves in that area. The governments response to the report | :50:13. | :50:30. | |
was to emphasise its commitment to the convention, but again to refer | :50:31. | :50:42. | |
to the devolved administrations. The International context is something | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
that we have heard about, and we have also heard that it is not just | :50:48. | :50:55. | |
a third World issue. Real commitment would put all the mechanisms in | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
place and it would be a considerable achievement of Her Majesty 's | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
government, both to be able to ratify the Convention and actually | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
to ratify it. It would be a solid expression of its commitment to | :51:10. | :51:17. | |
preventing and combating violence against women and domestic pile in. | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
If you like, it would put the country's legislation where its | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
mouth is. -- domestic violence. The UK is in a good position to ratify, | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
according to the J CHR. The then Home Secretary showed her personal | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
commitment and only a single legislative change is required. Last | :51:39. | :51:49. | |
year the JCHR visited Strasbourg and I remember a member of the Council | :51:50. | :51:57. | |
of Europe emphasising very strongly the importance of the UK 's example. | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
The context was different, we were talking about compliance with the | :52:03. | :52:11. | |
judgment of the court and a different issue, but the same | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
message, and that is the examples set by a country which is respected | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
and use respect needs to be maintained. From these benches we | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
support the bill. My Lords, it is a pleasure and privilege to make a | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
brief response from the opposition front bench. I congratulate my noble | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
friend for bringing forward this bill and for her excellent opening | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
speech that made the case so compelling that I challenge the | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Minister to resist in any way at all. I would like to take a moment | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
to congratulate my honourable friend for a lifetime of campaigning for | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
women and girls throughout political history and to say what an | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
inspiration she is to so many of us on these benches. It has been a | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
delight to hear speeches from almost all around the house, particular for | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
the noble Lord, Lord Browne, who made such an important contribution | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
to the legal position to the position of women with that | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
ground-breaking ruling. I also congratulate him to turn up and | :53:15. | :53:17. | |
stand up and speak up for his benches on the men who support this. | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
I look forward to the Conservative benches being just as encouraging | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
when the minister gets up to speak. I am pleased to say from these | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
benches that I fully support this bill and it has the full support of | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
the official opposition and the Labour Party had confirmed that in | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
government we would ratify the Istanbul convention. Violence | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
against women and girls should be a priority in any society and we are | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
completely committed to ensure that women and girls can have safe and | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
secure lives wherever they live and whatever they choose to do. Sarah | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
Champion said in another place, ending violence against women and | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
girls requires a radical seismic societal shift in power and | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
attitudes. This bill may be a small contribution but it is a very | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
important one and it shows our partnership can -- parliament can | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
play in tackling that challenge. We had a catalogue of appalling | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
violence, explained by the Bishop of Saint all buttons and the noble and | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
learned it Lord of Eaton under Heywood. As my noble friend Lady | :54:23. | :54:30. | |
Gale, the reason to understand that this violence is perpetrated against | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
women and girls, it is gendered violence, and it is not an accident | :54:36. | :54:38. | |
that such a disproportionate amount of it is directed against women and | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
girls. It is the context in which atoms which is global inequality, | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
and inequality of power and an inequality of access to the levers | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
of power. We need to understand that there is a connection between that | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
even in our own society. We are still in a permission where we have | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
a female Prime Minister but only other seven other women in their | :54:59. | :55:06. | |
cabinet and 29% of MPs are women and we recently saw the celebrations | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
went on, finally won a by-election just before Christmas meant as many | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
women had been elected to the other place in history as were sitting on | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
that day. In this house only 26% of us are women and we are making | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
progress but the reality is that the context here and elsewhere around | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
the world means that we will have to take particular steps to address the | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
challenge faced by women and girls and that is the context for this | :55:28. | :55:34. | |
bill. That makes this convention, the Istanbul convention, so | :55:35. | :55:35. | |
important. Is a unique grand pacing piece of | :55:36. | :55:47. | |
legislation which offers an international framework for tackling | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
violence against women and girls -- unique ground-breaking. So I hope | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
they will be telling us they will give this bill affaires wind and | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
that we will hear from them a timetable for ratification of the | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
convention and that there will be a time and they can change the house | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
what changes will be needed to ratify it and I look forward to | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
hearing about this. But also as the bill will cut across powers, I | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
wonder if the Minister could tell the house what discussions the | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
government has had with devolved administrations regarding | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
implementing this? This provides us with a step we need to take a key | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
move forward in the battle to eliminate violence against women and | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
girls and I hope the House and the government give this wholehearted | :56:31. | :56:37. | |
support. My Lords, may I take a moment to thank the noble ladies are | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
taking this bill through the House and for the very constructive | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
conversation we have have this week. -- lady. May at -- may I also single | :56:47. | :56:58. | |
out special praise. It is always nice to hear men come in on a debate | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
which is mainly about women. I would like to say at this moment that the | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
government has given its full backing to this bill and we wholly | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
support its aim of making sure that we deliver on our commitment to | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
ratifying the Istanbul convention. We all recognise that violence is | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
still far too prevalent in our society today. And that women still | :57:23. | :57:28. | |
face much higher risk of gender-based violence than men. | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
Physical, sexual and domestic abuse affects women are disproportionately | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
and that is the stark reality, I'm afraid. We'll so know that many of | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
these crimes remain unreported -- we also know. We spoke about this in | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
questions yesterday, leaving victims to suffer in silence, and | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
perpetrators escaping justice. Our commitment to ratifying the Istanbul | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
convention, not only shows how seriously this government is taking | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
its responsibility to make sure that all victims are supported and that | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
perpetrators are brought to justice, but also our ongoing commitment to | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
strengthening international cooperation in this field which is | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
vital. My Lords this government has put prevention at the heart of our | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
approach, and we have significantly strengthened the law since we first | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
published our first call to end violence in 2010, as the right | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
reverend the Bishop of St Albans has pointed out. We have criminalised | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
forced marriages in England and Wales and have a forced marriage | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
order in protection. The right reverend brought up an interesting | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
point about the issue of forced marriages and girls being taken out | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
of the UK for this reason. The joint Home Office and Foreign and | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
Commonwealth Office, they provide that support and advice to victims. | :58:58. | :59:07. | |
The most recent statistics were published yesterday in fact and they | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
showed that in 2016 advice or support was provided in 1428 cases. | :59:13. | :59:22. | |
371 of those, 26%, involved under 18 's and the unit handled cases | :59:23. | :59:31. | |
relating to 60... Sorry to break in. I was making a different point. I'm | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
grateful to have those statistics, but the question is we don't have | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
any proactive way of trying to work out, for example, people going | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
through immigration, to find out more information, it is simply an | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
unknown problem and that is what I was trying to push in. Could you | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
comment on that. You make a very good point. About how do we actually | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
as opposed to being reactive about these things, be proactive, and one | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
of the things that we have made significant steps in doing over the | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
last new months and years, is over our intelligence at the border, | :00:11. | :00:16. | |
training border staff to look for what may be issues of either people | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
trafficking or forced marriages, there are a host of things that | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
immigration is looking at that actually prevents some of these | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
things from happening. I'm glad that the right reverend brought that up. | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
We have fast tracked in addition to that, female genital mutilation | :00:41. | :00:42. | |
protection orders and we have introduced a new mandatory reporting | :00:43. | :00:49. | |
duty for FGM. We have strength and legislation on stalking, creating | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
two new offences and we have improved training regarding stalking | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
for those who come into contact with victims and we have also introduced | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
a new stalking protection order with criminal sanctions to help protect | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
victims at the earliest possible opportunity. The rape action plan | :01:07. | :01:14. | |
launched in 2014 and led by the Crown Prosecution Service and the | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
National policing lead for rape is making sure that every report of | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
rape is treated seriously and every victim is given the help they | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
deserve. And we have protected funding for rape support services at | :01:27. | :01:36. | |
current levels in 2016, 2017, providing independent specialist | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
support. We have also strengthened the law on domestic violence with a | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
new offence of domestic abuse which covers controlling and coercive | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
behaviour and another thing we touched upon on Wednesday at | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
questions, the new offence protects victims who would otherwise be | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
subjected to sustained patterns of abuse that can lead to total control | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
of their lives by the perpetrator, some of them not actually even | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
knowing that this is happening to them. Another thing we discussed. | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
And the new domestic violence protection order and the domestic | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
violence disclosure scheme has also been rolled out across England and | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
Wales. This is alongside the work of the government to continue reforming | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
front line agency 's response. It is vital that victims have the | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
confidence to report these crimes knowing they will get the support | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
they need and that everything will be done to bring offenders to | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
justice. The UK continues to be a global leader in its efforts to | :02:43. | :02:50. | |
tackle this and our changes to domestic law are supporting a | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
stronger international framework, the Istanbul convention highlights | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
the need for more regional and international cooperation and while | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
there is no one size fits all model, the measures within the convention | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
will make sure that more of the action is taken through legally | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
binding and harmonised standards. In most respects the measures already | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
in place in the UK to protect women and girls from violence comply or go | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
further than the Convention requires. But before we ratify the | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
convention we must make sure that we are fully compliant with it. There | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
is one outstanding issue regarding introducing extraterritorial | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
jurisdiction or even extraterrestrials jurisdiction which | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
needs to be addressed before we will consider it to be compliant. We | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
already have the TJ over some of the offences -- E TJ over some of the | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
offences, including forced marriages and FGM, but there is still a number | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
of offences including rape of an over 18, sexual assault and domestic | :03:57. | :04:06. | |
violence. We need to fully comply with the requirements in Article 44 | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
of the convention. This will require primary legislation to be introduced | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
in England and Wales as well as Scotland and Northern Ireland. We | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
are working closely with ministerial colleagues to progress this issue | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
and as the Prime Minister has signalled, we will explore all | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
options to bring the necessary legislation forward. I think it was | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
the noble lady who asked about the devolved administrations and we are | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
in regular contact with them on this bill and the Istanbul convention. | :04:39. | :04:52. | |
The bill places agency on the government to lay a report before | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
Parliament as soon as reasonably practicable after this bill comes | :04:56. | :05:04. | |
into force. As well as the timescale within which ratification is | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
expected and it also requires the government to lay the annual report | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
before Parliament on progress towards ratification. I recognise | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
that noble Lords want some assurance that we will continue to update | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Parliament on the ongoing compliance with the convention, | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
post-ratification. As with the other Council of Europe treaties and the | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
baroness did actually asked a question about Brexit, in this | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
regard, it is a Council of Europe treaty, so this is independent of | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
the European Union. Functions on processes and it won't affect | :05:42. | :05:50. | |
Brexit. Once it has been ratified we will be required to submit regular | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
reports to the Council of Europe on compliance and the reports will | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
contain detailed information. It will mention the role of civil | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
society organisations to addressing these crimes and regarding | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
prosecutions and convictions and we will make sure that both houses have | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
sight of these reports. The group of experts on action of violence | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
against women and domestic violence, the independent expert body monitors | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
the convention, will scrutinise the report and then prepare their own | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
report with recommendations and the report will also be available for | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
parliamentary and public scrutiny. The government is pleased to support | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
this bill and its aims of making sure that we formally demonstrate to | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
Parliament the progress that we make to deliver against our commitment to | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
ratify the convention. We have made progress in tackling this but we are | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
not complacent. We know that there is more to do to make sure that | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
victims of terrible crimes get the support they need. Across government | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
strategy published last March, setup the ambition that by the end of this | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
Parliament no victim of abuse is turned away from the support they | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
need. The strategy is underpinned by increased funding of ?80 million and | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
this includes the Home Office's ?15 million, three-year violence against | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
women and girl fun, to promote and embed the best local practices and | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
make sure that early intervention and prevention becomes the norm. The | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
Chancellor's Spring statement has announced an additional ?20 million | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
for victims of domestic abuse. This funding will help to deliver our | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
goal to work with local commissioners to deliver a secure | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
future for rape support centres, refugees and FGM and forced marriage | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
unit, and driving a major change across all services so that early | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
intervention and prevention is the norm. Furthermore to make sure that | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
all victims get the right support at the right time, we have set out a | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
clear blueprint for local action through the national statement of | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
expectations and this sets out what local areas need to do to prevent | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
offending and support victims and it will encourage organisations to work | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
with local commissioners to disseminate this and support | :08:16. | :08:22. | |
implementation of best practice. We have also recently announced some | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
key measures which will further strengthen the response. A major new | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
programme of work on domestic abuse has been announced by the Prime | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Minister. This cross governmental work is being co-ordinated by the | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Home Secretary and the Justice Secretary and will look at | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
legislative and non-legislative options to improve support for | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
victims. The measures that come out of this will encourage victims to | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
run >> STUDIO: -- to report their abuses and further raise public | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
awareness. We have announced that sex education will be put on a | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
statutory footing so that every child has access to age-appropriate | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
provision in a consistent way. And the Department for Education will be | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
consulting on making PS H E statutory. We must continue to | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
challenge the many forms of discrimination that women still face | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
and make sure that we make this everyone's business. We all have our | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
part to play in protecting women and girls from violence and I very much | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
hope and feel that you noble Lords will join me in supporting this | :09:33. | :09:33. | |
bill. I would like to thank all noble | :09:34. | :09:45. | |
members of the House today, I'll get this right. Thank you all very much | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
indeed for taking part. I would specially like to thank the noble | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
and learned Lord Brown for his contribution and again to thank him | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
for all the wonderful work he has done in this field. And to the right | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
Reverend again for speaking about his experiences listening to women | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
who have suffered from domestic violence and bringing that to your | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
Lordship's House. I mention our two male peers who took part because we | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
need women and men taking part in this. It isn't an issue just for | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
women as the noble Lord's have pointed out. Again I'd like to thank | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
the noble Baroness for her support of this and talk about her | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
experience in this field as well. And for the work on the Joint | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
Committee on Human Rights and speaking about how that committee | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
wants to ratify the Istanbul convention. I was interested in my | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
noble friend's intervention that some people think it doesn't happen | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
in their area. We know it happens everywhere. It happens in every | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
county in England, Wales, Scotland and in the whole world actually. | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
There's no country free from it. That is why it's really important | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
that we take action. I would like to thank my noble friend again for the | :11:16. | :11:21. | |
Opposition support for this bill. So there is support right across the | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
House on hiss. I thank the minister for her support for the bill. I'm | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
sure working together, with other members, we going to get this | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
through. I look forward to working with her and I'm sure that in | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
getting this bill through your Lordship's house that she will make | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
sure that, working together, should keep my feet firmly on the ground | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
and that bill does not end up in outer space. I'm really looking | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
forward to that. I know we're going to get the compliance because the | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
Government seems to be determined to do that. I thank the minister for | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
her cooperation and I would now ask the House to gay the bill a second | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
reading. -- to give the bill a second reading. As man of that | :12:12. | :12:20. | |
opinion should say content. The contents have it. | :12:21. | :12:26. | |
My Lord I move that this bill be committed to a committee of the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
whole House. As many of that opinion say content. To the contrary not | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
content. The contents have it. Second reading of the political | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
parties funding and expenditure bill. My Lord's, I beg to move this | :12:40. | :12:47. | |
bill be read a second time. I must confess that I'm very surprised, | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
pleasantly surprised of course, to be in a position to move the second | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
reading of the bill. Had there not been a fill buster in the other | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
place two weeks ago, I would have no chance to set out the merits of our | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
proposal today, and that would have been the last opportunity for this | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
session. My Lord's, I say "our" proposals, since this bill is based | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
on the cross-party draft published in April 2013 by a small group | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
comprising Andrew Tyrie MP, very distinguished member of the other | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
place who's worked so hard on this issue and Alan Whitehead a very well | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
respected Labour MP and myself. I'm hugely grateful for their time and | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
their commitment, but the current bill has, for obvious reasons, been | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
updated since then, so that they cannot be held responsible for all | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
its details. My Lord's I should also record that the really hard work for | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
the original draft was undertaken by a professional Parliamentary | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
draftsperson under the supervision of our principal advisor Alex Davis, | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
with the support of the GCSE receive Rountree reform -- Joseph Rowntree | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
trust. The contribution of Alex to the process has been invaluable. The | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
bill is as much his as it is now. I should record that it seeks to | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
fulfil the objectives of the report by the committee on standards? | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
Public life pub -- stands in publish life. I am delighted that the | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
current chairman, who has down so much to clarify the problems and | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
possible solutions intends to speak today. The current bill drafted | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
nearly a year ago now, updates the previous proposals to reflect the | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
various manifesto commitments of all the main parties to take big money | :14:37. | :14:43. | |
out of British politics. And to regularise the constraints of both | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
party donations and campaign expenditure. The delay in obtaining | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
this debate, my Lord's, has two fortuitous, huge benefits. First, | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
I'm delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Young, is to respond since he | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
and I have debated together and often worked together over some 55 | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
years. He may not care to be reminded of this. I hope it's too | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
late to affect his career, but it has been a very happy cooperation on | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
several occasions. My Lord's, if this debate had taken place earlier | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
in the session he might have still been enjoying well earned retirement | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
on the backbenches. But he's here today and I'm delighted. Mowerover, | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
my Lord's, unlike so many colleagues, he comes to the | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
Government dispatch box with a great deal of experience of election | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
contests, several more than mine and very many more successful than mine. | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
He is uniquely placed to respond positively to this debate. My | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
Lord's, secondly, in the last few weeks, there have been several | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
developments which add to the urgency of a review of the law | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
relating to political funding, both in relation to the extent to which | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
millionaires dominate the income of all parties and the way in which, | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
and the way in which opportunities are found to circumnavigate the long | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
established restraints of campaign funding. This debate is all the more | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
timely and topical for that. For example, I immediately concede, my | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
Lord's, that the bill does not, since it was prepared over a year | :16:19. | :16:25. | |
ago, adequately cover the special circumstances of referendums or | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
referenda, if you prefer. You will be aware of the recent revelations | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
in the Observer newspaper examiner the role of the American billionaire | :16:37. | :16:45. | |
Robert Mercer and his interests in Cambridge alalityca and vote leave | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
campaign last year. Despite attempted explanations that this | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
company, which assisted the Trump campaign to target swing voters at a | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
cost of more than $6 million, did not work in British politics Mr | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
Aaron Banks suggests otherwise. He said last month that Cambridge | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
analytical was "world class, had helped the Leave campaign with | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
unprecedented levels of engagement and claimed that their artificial | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
intelligence won it for Leave." One of the employees of this company had | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
previously appeared at a Leave EU press conference to explain the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
technology that was being employed in their campaign. The Observer | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
reports that Cambridge analytical "declined to comment last week on | :17:38. | :17:47. | |
whether it had (inaudible) As members here will know all donations | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
of services in kind worth ?7,500 must be reported to the Electoral | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
Commission and no such submission was made. Here my Lord's is a clear | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
case for the commission to be empowered to examine again the issue | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
of valuable benefits in kind and to act to prevent abuse. I come to a | :18:09. | :18:14. | |
second example of potential abuse. The guardian on February 24 reported | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
on the curious case of the referendum campaign expenditure by | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
the DUP, which was wholly and completely spent on the mainland of | :18:25. | :18:33. | |
Great Britain. We now know that the DUP had an anonymous donation of | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
?280,000 for advertising wrap around Metro, by far its biggest single | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
contribution to the Leave campaign. And Metro does not circulate in | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
Northern Ireland. The rules on political donations transparency | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
were not extended to the province in 2000, for very special reasons. | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
Those reasons may not apply now, and they should surely be revisited. The | :19:01. | :19:03. | |
practical result of this deefs action has been to create an | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
apparent case of political money laundering. I hope the ministers and | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
commission will agree this potential abuse should not be permitted to | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
continue and increase and the latter must be given powers in legislation | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
to tackle it. Together, my Lord's, these two examples result in the | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
Leave campaign standing accused not only of lying in the substance of | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
their campaign, but cheating in the process of delivering it. My third | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
example is even more urgent and topical because the trend I will | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
identify is inSidious and undermines one of the most vital features of | :19:40. | :19:45. | |
our representative democracy. Since 1883, there have been firm rules to | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
prevent individuals and organisations from pouring excessive | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
sums of money into the constituency campaigns to secure the election of | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
individual candidates, to prevent the purchase of MPs, if you like. | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
All the elections here contested I'm sure that the noble Lord, Lord | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
Young, will have been reminded that every single penny spent to secure | :20:10. | :20:16. | |
his success is restricted by law. It must be observed rigorously and | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
reported or he could end up in court. A number of other members of | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
your Lordship's House stood for election to the other place and I'm | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
sure they were reminded by their agents at regular intervals about | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
expenditure at any sum to secure election. Over recent years, | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
however, an ever increasing percentage of the investment in | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
target seats has come from the various national party campaign | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
funds with hugely different and higher permitted totals. All parties | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
have seen this as an obvious way to increase their chances of success in | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
those constituencies, while dodging the long established local financial | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
constraints. My Lord, in recent weeks, we've all been endeaded to | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
Michael Crick and Channel 4 for their determined investigative | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
journalism on this issue. Personally I regret that the BBC has appeared | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
to be prepared to leave it to rivals, to their rivals, to fill | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
this important role. However, the Times has covered this issue | :21:24. | :21:34. | |
extensively. In its issue of March 4, under the headline, "election | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
fraud Queenery rocks Number Ten", and then there was a considerable | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
interest that followed on from that. World media attention has fizzed | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
round these cases, the official response has been positively | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
pedestrian. My Lord's, outrageously, these matters have been allowed to | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
drag on for more than 20 months. Quite apart from anything else, this | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
has been hanging over heads of individual MPs, and a number of | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
them, whose whole political career could be at risk. It is surely | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
absurd for so many individual police forces, many of whom may never have | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
undertaken any similar investigation to have to learn afresh the way in | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
which campaign funding is restricted by law. So that is why clause 23 of | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
our bill makes provision for the Electoral Commission to be empowered | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
in this key role of ensuring compliance with all the expenditure | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
limits in election law. Meanwhile, clause 19 of our bill sets out | :22:42. | :22:49. | |
clearly a way to circumscribe a growing abuse of our electoral | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
legislation. Subsection three of that clause, the only part of the | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
bill I intend to quote directly this afternoon, it reads, "No more than | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
1% of the amounts specified in subsection two may be incurred by | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
represented registered party for the purposes of A, sending unsolicited | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
material, falling within paragraph four of sedge you'll one -- schedule | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
one, addressed to any person registered or entitled to be | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
registered in the register of Parliamentary electors for any | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
Parliamentary constituency, B, making unsolicited telephone calls | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
to such persons. To be clear, this means that only 1% of the overall | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
national preparer limit could be spent in any one constituency on the | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
two campaign methods which are denone strabl targeted. A letter or | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
telephone call to an elector in a home, in a constituency cannot be | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
said to be doing other than influencing the result in that | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
particular constituency. It's one of the features of our electoral system | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
that there is no national result, nor a regional result, only | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
constituency results. What we are suggesting may not prevent all the | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
present cunning attempts to bypass the law, not least with the Advent | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
of targeted social media advertising, but it would be a good | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
start. And if the Government took on this cross-party bill, they could | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
certainly make it more comprehensive, for example, dealing | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
with the deployment of central party staff and the bus loads of activists | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
to marginal seats. I don't know whether the noble Lord reads the | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
Daily Mail every morning, but I'm sure his department has drawn his | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
attention to page two of that newspaper this morning, possibly | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
also he saw Channel 4 last night, that is very relevant. I'm very | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
competent and well aware of the recent extensive, excellently | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
prepared and fair recommendations of the Electoral Commission that their | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
expert advice to be available to ministers. I have a summary of | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
relevant recent Electoral Commission statements which I won't propose to | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
read out now, but I'm sure the noble Lord the minister is well aware of | :25:07. | :25:07. | |
them. The Times article was accompanied by | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
a leading article which concluded the spending rules exist for good | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
reasons. They make sure that constituency candidates face each | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
other on a level playing field, fiddling expenses undermines not | :25:24. | :25:30. | |
just the result, but the public's face in the institutions of | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
Parliament. Above all the electoral process must be seen to be honest | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
and above reproach. I wholeheartedly agree and I hope that the noble Lord | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
will do so, to. My Lords, I readily acknowledge that the likelihood of | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
any further progress for our cross-party bill at this time is | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
precisely zero. However, help is at hand. Members of the house will | :26:00. | :26:08. | |
recall the crucial recommendations regarding trade union political | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
funds and political party funding. I'm proud to admit that I originally | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
suggested the creation of that select committee and then served on | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
it. Our report published just over a year ago referred to the | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
Conservative 2015 election manifesto as follows, to seek agreement on a | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
comprehensive package of party funded reform. And then our report | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
included one very important recommendation, approved | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
unanimously. Whether or not clause ten is enacted in whatever form, the | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
political parties should live up to their manifesto commitments and make | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
a renewed and urgent effort to seek a comprehensive agreement on party | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
funding reform, and it went on, we urge the government to take a | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
decisive lead and convened talks itself rather than waiting for them | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
to emerge. We accepted the select committee's report and the trade | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
union Bill was amended, but we waited in vain for the government's | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
response to this crucial recommendation. At long last before | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
Christmas, Christmas Eve, I think, six months beyond the convention | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
limit, Chris Skidmore Parliamentary undersecretary wrote to our | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
committee chairman, in his memorandum setting up the | :27:32. | :27:33. | |
government's response largely ignored this recommendation and | :27:34. | :27:40. | |
failed completely to reiterate the 2015 Conservative manifesto, but | :27:41. | :27:49. | |
instead stated boldly that this -- despite this cross-party consensus, | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
there is no broad consensus at this time. I'm not sure how he has | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
arrived at this view, because in advance of convening talks. I | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
suspect it might be that the Conservatives just don't want to | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
find a consensus. However, he went on to promise, the government is | :28:08. | :28:15. | |
open to constructive debate and dialogue on small-scale measures | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
which could command broad support, if there was a positive reaction to | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
such a potential step from a main political party, but let me repeat. | :28:23. | :28:31. | |
A positive reaction. I don't know Chris Skidmore, but I'm sure that | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
Lord Young will concur with me that the team in the cabinet off is | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
always chooses their words with extreme care. It is impossible to | :28:41. | :28:48. | |
have a reaction, positive or otherwise, without having an action | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
to react to. There must be something to react to. Therefore I'd take it | :28:53. | :28:59. | |
that the government is now ready to follow the recommendation of the | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
select committee and to put some proposals to a cross-party group | :29:03. | :29:08. | |
which they will convene. To meet the recommendation of the select | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
committee, so warmly endorsed by your membership's house committee | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
may be that the Minister will outline these proposals this | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
afternoon. I've always been told that the afternoon is when the Mace | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
hits the wharf site, that the afternoon starts. | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
In any case, in this House and those from across the House, who agreed | :29:31. | :29:39. | |
unanimously to these recommendations, several of whom I'm | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
delighted to see here today, will now look to the government to | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
initiate these talks immediately with a view to taking this further | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
in the Queen's Speech and the new session. The Prime Minister came to | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
office last year without the trouble of an election, and she must now | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
pledged to lead a government which would be driven not by the interests | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
of the privileged few. While donations and expenditure to | :30:07. | :30:08. | |
election campaigns remains on reform, she simply cannot realise | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
this ambition. A privileged few will continue to have privileged access | :30:15. | :30:19. | |
to government and power. So before we get too close to another general | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
election it is time, finally, to grasp this nettle. We who have | :30:24. | :30:32. | |
worked on this cross-party bill, offer it as a practical starting | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
point for cross-party discussions and for the legislation that must | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
surely follow. I beg to move. The question is that this bill now be | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
read a second time. I congratulate Lord Tyler in bringing forward this | :30:49. | :30:57. | |
bill. I congratulate him especially... He spoke of the need | :30:58. | :31:07. | |
to control big-money donations and I note in the week that his party | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
leader has been extolling about $1 million >> STUDIO: -- about ?1 | :31:12. | :31:20. | |
million donation, exceeding that of the Labour Party. Anyone will not be | :31:21. | :31:29. | |
surprised it is possible for the Liberal party leadership to be | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
exalted in ?1 million donation at one end of Parliament while here | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
they are being attacked. But despite all that, I complement the noble | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
Lord Agassi is always very assiduous on these matters -- because he is | :31:44. | :31:53. | |
always. A number of other matters deserve careful consideration, and | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
there is a good case for gift aid and relation to personal political | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
donations, especially at the local level, where political service in | :32:02. | :32:10. | |
local communities actually at -- is objectively not much different from | :32:11. | :32:12. | |
voluntary service for the public good. I must restrain myself because | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
the cynic in me that sadly gnaws its way through my customary civility to | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
the Liberal Democrats, does tempt me to say that some might see part one | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
of schedule two in this bill which is entitled limits on campaign | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
expenditure, and the noble Lord's own condemnation as he put it of | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
bus-loads of activists being taken to elections. As perhaps a little | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
rich in a bill which is being commended by the party opposite. But | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
this being lent, I will restrain myself and I think we should all | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
reflect on verse seven of chapter eight, I say this as the right | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
reverend's benches empty, but chapters St John, let the party | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
without sin cast the first stone. But the noble Lord referred to | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
things which are not in the bill and I want to refer to things which I | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
think are important. These are, the reception of donations that are | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
later found to be the direct proceeds of crime, and secondly the | :33:26. | :33:33. | |
risk of corrupt attempts to induce political party not to put up a | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
candidate in an election. On the first point I'd take as my test case | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
in the case of Michael Brown, convicted in 2008 hurt theft, | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
furnishing false information and seeking to convert the course of | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
justice -- for therefore the later broke jail as a fugitive from | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
justice, but he donated ?2.4 million in just seven weeks to the Liberal | :34:03. | :34:11. | |
Democrats in 2005. Before anyone says I have got on John, chapter | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
seven, I would say that the Maxwell case and others show that all | :34:17. | :34:18. | |
parties have encountered this problem. Let the party without sin | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
cast the first stone. But I'd take the Brown, three wrongs do not make | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
a right, and I focus on the ground case because it took place after the | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
establishment of the electoral commission. And it clearly shows the | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
inability of the commission to secure the return of donations which | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
are the result of criminal enterprise, impermissible donation | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
might be returned. If it was later found to be from the proceeds of | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
crime. The only issue in law that the electoral commission campus you | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
is whether the donation appeared reasonably to be their personal at | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
the time it was given. -- to be permissible. And broadly that is | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
whether it was incorporated in the UK and trading, and that is | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
something that told in the very entertaining memoirs of the noble | :35:16. | :35:23. | |
Lord, and always proud to plug the work of a former Richmond | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
councillor, he says the Metropolitan special police special Branch told | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
the Liberal Democrats at the time that fifth Ave partners were trading | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
legitimately. It is therefore a material that it was later proved in | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
court that the donating company was operating as a front for massive | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
fraud. Paragraph 37 of the electoral commission's later report on this | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
case implies that three donations to the Liberal Democrats, one of | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
100,000, one of 151,000, and a third one of ?632,000, were money put into | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
the company by default it would be investors which was flipped by Brown | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
into political donations. Although the courts found that brown faced at | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
least ?36 million from people who thought they were investing in a | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
successful hedge fund, run by the son of a peer, and I never | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
understand why people find it so beguiling when they are approached | :36:26. | :36:27. | |
by someone who claims to be the son of a peer that they hand over their | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
money. One individual hand it over ?8 million, very unfortunate, whose | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
name is well known. But no action could be taken to recover the funds | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
that were later found to be the proceeds of this criminal | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
enterprise. One of Michael Brown's victims took the case to the | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
Parliamentary ombudsman and he actually found against the electoral | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
commission on certain grounds, negligence as he saw it, | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
commissioned it not acceptable, those findings, and the matter was | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
effectively closed. The party kept the money, as the Maxwell minute in | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
the past was kept, and the victims lived with the loss -- the Maxwell | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
money. There is a clear inequity, and I diverges between the treatment | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
of what is found, albeit in good faith -- and a diverges. To be an | :37:16. | :37:22. | |
impermissible donation at the time and one which is found later to come | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
from criminal fraud. And I think if this bill goes forward to committee | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
this issue really should be addressed. The second matter I wish | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
to raise relates to the very murky affair of a ?250,000 donation | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
offered by a still anonymous individual or company to the Green | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
Party. In the context of discussion whether or not the Green Party | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
should put up a candidate in the Richmond Park by-election and give a | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
free run to the Liberal Democrats. Now, that this attempt at a donation | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
was made is not tonight, my lords, quite the reverse. -- is not denied. | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
Report from Kingston Green Party declares, and I quote, party staff | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
added pressure to Kingston Green Party activists, saying in | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
confidence that the party staff working for us to agree to stand | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
down. This was because they would be serious but confidential | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
implications for the National party, so serious that they could even | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
affect the jobs of party staff. In the event that we did not do so. I | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
continued the quote, later it was clarified by party staff, ostensibly | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
on the instructions of a chief executive, that this related to the | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
donation of some ?250,000 that was conditional on the party showing its | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
seriousness about the progressive Alliance initiative. Between Green | :38:59. | :39:06. | |
Party and the Liberal Democrats. The evidence of those... INAUDIBLE | :39:07. | :39:17. | |
... A quarter of ?1 million, on offer, for the Green Party to not | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
oppose the Liberal Democrats, either here or more widely. And this was | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
not denied by the Green Party. Indeed it has been reported first | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
that the central staff member did discuss the proposed donation with | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
local party members, but this was an error. That is the usual excuse, my | :39:40. | :39:46. | |
lords, of overzealous officials that comes up in so many cover-ups. | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
The Green Party has said that the donation was considered but rejected | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
by the party's ethics committee. That's a committee that we're told | :39:58. | :40:05. | |
ensures no donations are accepted from foreign sources, tobacco | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
companies or other industries, such as aviation. In other words, my | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
Lord's, the offer was made, it was considered by the Green Party, it | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
was used in argument within the Green Party to seek to induce people | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
not to come forward or wish to come forward to be candidates, but was | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
eventually rejected. Now it's true that the Green Party has denied that | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
this attempted donation was contingent on this one specific seat | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
being vacated for the Liberal Democrats. But that does not rule | :40:40. | :40:45. | |
out its being part of an inducement to a wider, progressive alliance in | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
which the two parties involved would agree not to contest a number of | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
agreed seats. E-mails are available in which the liberal leader of | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
Kingston, liberal party on Kingston Council, Liz Green, is seeking to | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
reach such arrangements with local Greens. It's note worthy that | :41:07. | :41:14. | |
Caroline Lucas, the Green MP, facing boundary changes, showed an uncommon | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
interest in this matter, my Lord's. I asked the Electoral Commission if | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
they were minded to investigate this attempted donation. They said that, | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
I quote, "corrupt withdrawal from candidacy was a matter not for them | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
but for the police." It was their understanding the matter might have | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
been reported to the police, but a police spokesman, whom I cordially | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
thank and who was perhaps unable to establish the position in the time | :41:46. | :41:47. | |
available said after the inquiries he made that he was unaware of such | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
an investigation. My Lord's, I think there should be an investigation and | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
if no-one else has done so, then I would consider writing to the | :41:59. | :42:00. | |
Metropolitan Police commissioner myself. Section 107 of the | :42:01. | :42:08. | |
representation of the people act reads as follows: Corrupt withdrawal | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
from candidature, "any person who corruptly induces or procures any | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
other person to withdrawal from being a candidate at an election in | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
consideration of any payment or promise of payment, promise of | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
payment, my Lord's, and any person with drawing in pursuance of the | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
producement or procurement shall be guilty of an illegal payment. What | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
is not clear to me from this is if an inducement to a party not to put | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
forward, to a party not to put forward a candidate, which can | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
result, as in this case, in subsequent pressure on act vifrts | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
not to stand, is equally a criminal offence under the act. Of course, in | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
the circumstances in which parties have absolute control of the party | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
badge, rightly so, at elections, if the party does not lend support, | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
no-one who is a Green can stand as a Green using the greern name. Now it | :43:14. | :43:19. | |
should be, in my judgment, a criminal offence to seek to induce a | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
party not to put up a candidate by the offer of money. A police | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
investigation in think case could readily establish the identity of | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
the persons involved, including the would-be offerer of the donation. | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
Something on which the Green Party should come clean. I challenge them | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
to do so, my Lord's. What possible reason can there be for a political | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
party hiding the identity of a would-be donor, to which they have | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
admitted that they themselves is now unethical. They could at stroke | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
could release that information and we might then be better able to | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
establish the real truth behind this murky affair. My Lord's, I submit | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
that section 107 doesn't cover inducements to parties not to permit | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
candidates to go forward in certain seats, it should be revised to do | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
so. I hope some of the other matters raised in this bill will be | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
proceeded with. But I do hope that the two issues I've highlighted | :44:23. | :44:24. | |
today will also be considered. My Lord's, I rise to thank Lord | :44:25. | :44:38. | |
Tyler for raising this bill and declare that I the mareman of the | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
committee on a report in public life. This has a certain family | :44:43. | :44:49. | |
resemblance to the themes of this bill, public funding, 10,000 | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
donation cap, in particular. Again, as I have done before in this House, | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
I have to concede that the report of the committee in 2011 from the very | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
beginning did not claim the support of either the Conservative or Labour | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
Party membership of the committee. This does not mean I think that we | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
can then just shelf the report. I certainly think that in one respect | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
in particular the emphasis in that report on the difficulties | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
surrounding the big donor culture in British politics and the moral | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
difficulties are still very much alive. It does mean that I am not | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
here to fetishise any detail of that report. I does mean that I want to | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
defend one of the key ideas, the need for cross-party consensus and | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
I'm here to defend and move this issue forward. I am absolutely | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
certain the issue cannot be left where it now is. I think, as I want | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
to make clear in the course of speech, in a number of important | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
respects, the whole landscape has changed in the last five, six years | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
in respect to these issues. Any reform would have to take into | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
account the ways in which the landscape has actually changed. I am | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
grateful to the elements in the speech where he indicated there were | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
certain elements of perform that he as a Conservative peer would | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
support. I think that could be easily enough the beginning of a | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
discussion between the parties in which there could be a consensus. | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
There is enormous difficulty around this issue but I do want to start by | :46:36. | :46:43. | |
supporting one point from Lord Tyler's speech, that is this: The | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
Prime Minister very effectively, at the beginning of her tenure, as she | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
took office, talked about the issue of public trust. She raised this | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
issue, actually, I'm not now talking about general polling about the | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
Conservative Party's fortunes, which everybody knows of. The Conservative | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
side is quite solid. We've had an historic by-election result, but | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
actually on the trust issue. There was a spike, a sympathetic spike | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
upward in public trust issues in the immediate period of the Prime | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
Minister taking office, upwards, because she talked about trust in | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
politics and she talked about these issues and implied there would be | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
change. I am absolutely certain and I know I say to a Government riding | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
on a crest of a wave of highs opinion polls, the massive | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
distraction of Brexit for Governmental energy. It cannot be | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
left where it is. It cannot be left where expectation is raised that | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
there is going to be some movement in this area and then absolutely | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
nothing happens. There was this positive reaction and it would be | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
very unpleasant for all of us to see this to turn sour in public opinion. | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
Now the matter is very difficult. To put it simply, 80% of the public | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
believe that people only give money to political parties because they | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
want to become peers. 80% of the public believe they will not | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
contribute to the upkeep of political problems. There you have a | :48:18. | :48:24. | |
problem. Even more than the committee post on standards in | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
public life posted last year and this was the work of Dee Goddard, | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
from the University of Kent, whose work I will draw on later in the | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
speech as well, you can see, for example, 90% of members of the | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
public believe that MPs behave in hay way, which is determined in some | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
degree, by party donors, possibly against their conscience. As a | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
matter of fact, I do not believe this to be true at all. I believe | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
the level of trustworthiness, real trustworthiness of a member of | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
Parliament is far higher than some of these jaundiced surveys of trust. | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
But nonetheless, the fact that level of suspicion exists cannot be | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
totally disregarded. There's no magic way forward. Similar polling | :49:11. | :49:14. | |
shows that 42% of the public are not sure they believe in a donation cap. | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
That's quite a large chunk. They certainly are not sure as to what | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
the level of that donation cap should be to political parties. So I | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
am not denying for one minute that it will be easy to resolve these | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
issues. I am not convinced that an all-singing, all-dancing reform | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
would prove to be possible. I am convinced, and I think we have seen | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
some of the elements of Lord Tyler's bill, and in Lord True's speeches, | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
elements where the parties could come together and at least be seen | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
to be responding to public concern on these matters. It is not good | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
enough for the Conservative Party, all the parties actually, to have | :49:55. | :50:01. | |
commitments in their 2010/2015 election manifestos which are widely | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
disregarded. I should say in the name of fairness here, that while | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
there's a pile of dusty and non-committal letters, in the | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
committee of standards office, where weaver asked the leaders of all the | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
parties what are they going to do on this matter and how will they live | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
up to the language in their manifestos, there is also a dusty | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
letter from the Deputy Prime Minister of the last Government, | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
also not really moving the situation forward in any very dramatic way. | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
All three major parties have not really distinguished themselves in | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
their, in their enthusiasm for reform in this particular area. I | :50:44. | :50:50. | |
want to mention a couple of difficulties in Lord Tyler's bill, | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
one of which he's acknowledged and addressed it somewhat in his speech. | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
It doesn't deal with matters in referenda. I think he's right and I | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
think there's a key issue of, he's right in what he said in his speech, | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
there is a key issue of private companies and their declaration of | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
ultimate ownership, when they donate to political parties. This is now a | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
key issue. I think it is likely to surface when the Electoral | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
Commission carries out its projected analysis now of the funding of the | :51:23. | :51:28. | |
referendum campaign. I think that is a gap. The second points that I want | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
to address is the issue of third-party funding. Now here, Lord | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
Tyler's bill slightly steps away from it. To be honest, our own | :51:39. | :51:45. | |
committee report 2011, if I remember rightly, was criticised by the | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
brilliant Oxford political scientist for its neglect of the third party | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
funding issue. We simply said it was an issue and we wanted the electoral | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
comiction to deal with it, but did not vote any real space or analysis | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
in our report. I can understand why there was criticism of that neglect | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
or deficiency. Since then, we have had the report of Lord Hodgson, the | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
independent report on third-party funding. This is important and it | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
came out in March 2016. It hits on something which is very important | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
and reinforces my earlier point, the way in which the actual terrain of | :52:27. | :52:32. | |
party political campaigning is changing so rapidly in this country | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
so that reforms, such as ours, were essentially designed to deal with | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
certain realities of payments for leafletting, the way that parties | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
operated locally, the way that activists behaved locally, which in | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
some ways had not changed all that much since the 1850s. In the last | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
five years, a new world has actually been created. Lord Hodgson's report | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
had the great merit of modernising our thinking on this key subject. In | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
particular, the ambiguous way in which social media transforms the | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
traditional forms of cam ache and -- campaigning. The parties are showing | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
increasing skill in exploitation of social media platforms for targeted | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
advertising using big data and the ability to data mine remains | :53:22. | :53:28. | |
difficult, it's very expensive, expensive procedures and it is which | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
therefore also heightens the significance of the use of private | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
money in our politics. There is a strong sense in the last election, | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
perfectly legitimately, the Conservative Party was well ahead of | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
the game in this respect, certainly as expenditure was well ahead of the | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
game, as against that of the Labour Party. Now that's politics. You're | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
either awake or you're not. I make no protest on that particularly | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
point, but nonetheless, it is something that you have to with | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
thought about and Lord Hodgson, for example, makes a point very strongly | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
in his report that many of these processes involved are likely to | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
take place before actually the regulated campaign begins. So these | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
are things we must at least take account of. We are not carrying out | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
political campaigns in the way we used to. Any reform should try and | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
address this. It's in some ways, as so often with the liberating, in | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
some ways liberating and in other respects ambiguous and potentially | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
disturbing in the way the new procedures might be put. Finally, my | :54:37. | :54:46. | |
Lord's, I want to distress my strong support for the key theme of the | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
bill before us today and that is the need for reform of the situation in | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
Northern Ireland. Obviously, I have a personal interest as I'm from | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
Northern Ireland, but actually my committee has had this interest long | :54:59. | :55:01. | |
before. The committee has been addressing this subject since 2009. | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
It is no longer acceptable to have secrecy as to party donations in | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
Northern Ireland. There may yet be a need for some transitional phase, | :55:12. | :55:17. | |
but nonetheless, the fact that we have had this secrecy is, in fact, a | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
part of the crisis which now grips Northern Irish politics. It's a | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
small part, but not insignificant. Because the point is this: That the | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
public believes that those who benefitted from the renewable | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
heating scandal and the waste -- alleged waste of hundreds of | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
millions of pounds of public money are, in many cases, party donors. | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
Now this may not be true, my neighbours all believe it to be | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
true. It may be entirely unfair. But what is a complicated and poisonous | :55:51. | :55:52. | |
factor in the recent election, there's no doubt in my mind it was a | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
complicated factor. May I make this point, my Lord's, we often wonder in | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
this country about transparency. It is perfectly true to say as I look | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
through The Minutes, before my time, that back over 20 years, that there | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
is an illusion on behalf of my very distinguished predecessors about | :56:16. | :56:17. | |
transparency. They actually believed for sure if only we achieved more | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
transparency in this or that area of British public life there would be | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
an increase in public trustment -- trust. In many respects this has not | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
happened. That is an illusion. But it is also the case and it is very | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
clear from the recent scandal in Northern Ireland, that the absence | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
of transparency makes things worse, so transparency is not the cure-all. | :56:40. | :56:50. | |
So I want to make that point and perhaps also in fairness Lord Tyler | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
mentioned the issue of the Democratic Unionist Party. Good I | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
explain this business of funding. It was an option for the Conservative | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
Party, this idea that money would go to Northern Ireland. There is no | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
suggestion that the Conservative Party Northern Ireland has ever used | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
that route which technically could have done, and indeed the Labour | :57:14. | :57:21. | |
Party which while it doesn't stand candidates in Northern Ireland has | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
members who are allowed to vote for the Labour leadership for example. | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
There has never been a suggestion and I'm confident it hasn't happened | :57:33. | :57:34. | |
that either of the main parties could have exploited the route that | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
is now complained about in the press have actually done so. By the way | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
another indication of the point I'm trying to make that often levels of | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
trustworthiness are actually higher than the public believes it to be. | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
In mainstream British politics. Because technically anyone who sees | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
this can say, how could this be legal? Once you have donations to a | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
political party, how is it, it will make it very uncomfortable, but | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
where is the illegality involved because we have already got secrecy | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
of donations in Northern Ireland. What is the illegality involved. | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
Written about critically in the press. I dead quite see the | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
illegality. Just to complete this point, it is not just the DUP Houari | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
problem here because current Northern Ireland electoral law | :58:29. | :58:38. | |
favours Sin Fein also, in that we do not accept foreign donations for | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
political parties and because we are linked in to the capacious | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
definition that the Irish Gutman has as to what is to be an Irish | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
citizen, Irish citizens are allowed to donate and it is perfectly | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
possible that a chap in Chicago who has never been in Highland in his | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
life could also be donating to one of the critical parties. It is | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
another political principle that is flouted by the current legislation, | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
the opposition to foreign donations. Let me say supposing the last | :59:11. | :59:13. | |
government, Sinn Fein had taken their seats and suppose they had, it | :59:14. | :59:21. | |
had been right towards a Labour government, we could have a Prime | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
Minister elected in this country in Parliament on the basis of a totally | :59:25. | :59:30. | |
different franchise in terms of the expenditure limits and context in | :59:31. | :59:33. | |
which they were working under. So there is, and by the way, you will | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
say to me that Sinn Fein don't currently take their seats but one | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
of the last public statements of Martin McGuinness was to suggest | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
that perhaps, Brexit was such a bad thing that it might be necessary for | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
them to revise their policy in this Parliament. I know the government | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
has this to paper out and there is a hint that the government itself is | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
looking for change in this area, I would be very comforted if the noble | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
Lord was able to say what the state of the government's thinking is on | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
this matter, of party funding in Northern Ireland? May join other | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
noble Lords in congratulating my noble friend on introducing this | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
very comprehensive bill. And hopefully it will push forward the | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
debates that we have had, in this chamber and elsewhere, on this very | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
important topic. I was also a member of the select committee on the trade | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
union funding of political parties. The reason for my interest in this | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
is that I spent, the years in the running up to the last election as | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
the treasure of the Liberal Democrats, raising over ?20 million | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
in the run-up and during that election campaign so I have got some | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
first-hand experience not only in the business world but also in | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
raising funds for political parties. And before I go on to comment on the | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
bill, and the current state of the debate on this matter, I want to | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
just respond to Lord Troon. The noble Lord, went through a whole | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
series of instances and all I would say to him about the Brown case and | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
others like him, and this refers to all parties. If this bill was on the | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
statute book anything like it none of those things would have happened. | :01:33. | :01:39. | |
That brings me, to what I think is the most important feature of this | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
bill. Before doing that I would say, again to the noble lord. I spent | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
last night with Sarah Olney and the leader of the Liberal Democrats in | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
Richmond and party members there, and in response to is comments about | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
the Richmond local authority, we will see at the ballot box next May, | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
and respond in that way. I think the most important feature of this bill, | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
the noble Lord has raised some very important issues as well. But the | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
most important feature of this bill, he is, the reform of contributions. | :02:15. | :02:26. | |
And on bringing down the scale of contributions. On introducing a cap, | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
so that the abuses that have taken place in the past, can be avoided, | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
and that some trust in politicians can be hopefully improved. Now I | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
don't frankly expect that will happen soon because I think the | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
party opposite would be adamantly opposed to any such reform taking | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
place. Because they clearly have a massive advantage from major donors | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
in the funding of the Conservative Party and have had for many years. | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
And therefore I am not optimistic that the change will take place | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
until another government comes into office and changes it. The present | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
government needs to remember, that while it may be riding high at the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
moment, governments do change and will change and circumstances may | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
well lead to the change that they don't want to see happening taking | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
place sometime in the future. The Labour Party has made major reforms | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
and I must say very welcome reforms following the Collins review. Of | :03:36. | :03:42. | |
political funding by the trade unions and the Labour Party. I think | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
the changes that have taken place have moved us in the right direction | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
towards individual donations. Which should enable, in a rational world, | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
the major parties to come to some agreement on how we move ahead in | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
the future. One of the other consequences of abolishing all of | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
putting a cap, on major payments, is that it would make parties do what I | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
think would be very good for our democracy, which President Obama | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
demonstrated, in his fund-raising activities for his campaigns. And | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
that is, it would make the parties, I been in the position of having to | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
do this, go out to the electorate and raise funds, small donations, | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
from many, many people. That's very good for the health of the democracy | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
and for the health of the parties that we should be forced into the | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
position of having to go to thousands on thousands of people. If | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
you have got a cap of ?10,000 you would have to do that, that would be | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
a very good thing in our political life. And would make parties have | :04:50. | :04:58. | |
two respond to a cap or that sort. The noble Lord mentioned the changes | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
in can political campaigning. They dovetail in. I agree with him, the | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
speed with which campaigning methods are now progressing, does mean that | :05:12. | :05:21. | |
it all needs to be reviewed. And that changing using the social media | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
in particular enables us to raise funds from a very substantial number | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
of people and we seal sorts of examples day by day of this | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
happening in crowdfunding of all sorts of very good causes, peeping | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
crisis. Companies. It is a whole new scene and there is no reason why, | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
and it has happened to some extent, the political parties couldn't do | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
the same thing. Extend their reach and get over this whole burden of | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
major donations being made to parties. So I think that is the | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
biggest necessary reform. But I'm afraid as I say that I don't | :05:59. | :06:08. | |
expected to be happening soon. But I do think there are some things, and | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
a number of them have been mentioned in the debate, that could be | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
usefully discussed in discussions between the major parties. When the | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
coalition was in office. The Deputy Prime Minister called for all-party | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
talks, and unfortunately although the Labour Party responded by | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
nominating a cabinet, a Shadow Cabinet minister and their general | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
secretary to take part in those, the Liberal Democrats did the same, the | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
Conservative Party didn't respond at all despite being partners in | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
government. It wasn't until the Peter Cruddas affair, hit the Sunday | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
Times, that the Conservative Party decided it should do something about | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
it and I think the Prime Minister spoke to the Deputy Prime Minister | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
when he learned that exposure was going to be made, in the Sunday | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
Times and suggested that they would give names to him for the all-party | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
talks to take place and sure enough this was used as a cover for the | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
Peter Cruddas coverage that took place at that time. A very cynical | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
way in which to handle it and of course, no progress was really made | :07:18. | :07:19. | |
in those talks because the Conservative Party wasn't interested | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
in making progress on any of the major matters that were discussed. | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
And, I think the abuses which had been taken place and which are being | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
investigated at the moment demonstrate the need for those talks | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
to take place as soon as possible. My noble friend referred to the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
investigations that the police and the electoral commission are | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
carrying out at the moment. In 1979, I had a case that went to the hype | :07:50. | :07:56. | |
court over my election expenses, to assess to the High Court. By greed | :07:57. | :08:00. | |
is quite unacceptable that these investigations have been going on | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
for almost two years now. And the members of Parliament concerned have | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
no certainty of their future in Parliament because it could be that | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
if the police find a case against them, that those Conservative | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
members, that are being investigated the abuses found, they could lose | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
their seats. I think that is an impossible position for them to be | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
in, guilty or not guilty. The matter should be resolved quickly. But we | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
said in the select committee report as my noble friend said, talks | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
should take place. The government had been extremely reluctant as | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
demonstrated by the ministers, the time that it is the ministers to | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
respond to the select committee report. There are some useful things | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
that could be discussed. And I urge the noble Lord minister, to respond | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
positively to this. There are changes, some of these have been | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
mentioned already in the debate. But there are changes possibly in the | :09:11. | :09:12. | |
tax treatment of political donations. Changes in methods of | :09:13. | :09:21. | |
fundraising, that I think be considered in joint talks. Also the | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
distribution of the existing funding of parties, because it is a bit of a | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
myth, that there is no state funding of the parties at the present time. | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
There is an enormous state funding of the critical parties, whether it | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
is through support for research assistants, in Parliament, whether | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
it is through the freepost mechanism. There is an enormous | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
amount of money and it may be, that could be looked at and a more | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
equitable system worked out. So I hope that the Minister will respond | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
to this debate today by saying that the government will initiate talks | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
between the critical parties. -- political parties. | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
I hope the minister will respond well to this debate by initiating | :10:12. | :10:20. | |
talks in his closing speech. My Lord's, as others have said, Lord | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
Tyler is to be commented by bringing this bill and this issue before the | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
House. His persistence and resilience in this matter against | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
quite severe odds. I do think this House is a good place to be | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
discussed in the first place, without the overall majority of any | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
particular party, we can discuss the issues. At the end of the day, | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
whilst I do have aspects of this bill which I would like to commend | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
and others which I somewhat disagree with, I think the main point of this | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
debate is to see how the minister responds, because there is a grave | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
responsibility in the party of Government to take the initiative in | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
this respect. I'm therefore greatly looking forward to the response by | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
the noble Lord, Lord Young, in a few minutes' time. My Lord's, like Lord | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
Tyler I served on the Select Committee set up in the course of | :11:23. | :11:30. | |
the trade union bill. Since others have not eschewed partisan comments, | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
I would say the reason that was set up was in response to a rather | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
blatant move by the Conservative Government to attempt to bankrupt | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
the largest party of Opposition, a move which would largely be | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
condemned if we were talking about a banana republic reporting to be a | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
proper democracy. But, my Lord's, that party's own move was part of a | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
pattern, but it was probably the most blatant of them. Over the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
years, Governments of different parties, Labour and Conservative, at | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
least, have made minor moves to try and restrict the amount of money | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
available to their main Opposition. The trade union bill, the trade | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
union act as it is now, was a very major such move, but in all | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
contexts, governments have attempted to restrict resources available to | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
their opponents. My Lord's, the point of the Select Committee | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
report,ence dorsed by this House was that we ought to be making another | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
effort to reach consensus on a proportionate way forward, which | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
does not impose huge burdens on the taxpayer or on the law, but which | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
all parties and all commentators could see as far as comprehensive. | :12:54. | :13:04. | |
My Lord's, the Conservative Party manifesto to which Lord Tyler has | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
already made reference not only included a rather vaguely worded | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
commitment to do something about trade union political funds, but it | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
also did commit a future Conservative Government to do | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
exactly what we are asking for, to set up a new initiative to look at | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
party funding as a whole. I think it's fair to say that all members of | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
that Select Committee were appalled at the complete indifference of | :13:35. | :13:36. | |
Government ministers who came to that committee in terms of their own | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
responsibilities, which they effectively put back to the | :13:42. | :13:47. | |
individual parties. My Lord's, that applied to the Conservative members | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
as much to the Labour and Liberal Democrat and independent members of | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
that committee. The reply to which Lord Tyler has referred to, which we | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
eventually got, does not take us any further. My Lord's, I suppose I | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
should have declared an interest at the beginning or at least a past | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
interest. I was for many years administer of a political fund of my | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
union and I was the grateful recipient of the trade union | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
political funds as General Secretary of the party. It is well known and | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
straightforward that the party has been pretty dependent on those | :14:25. | :14:27. | |
funds. I have always recognised that the way in which those funds are | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
raised and pats s passed to the party -- and passed to the party has | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
always been controversial and has reflected public concern that. Was | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
referred to in the report of the Committee on Standards in Public | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
Life. It has been referred to also earlier today. This is the issue of | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
opting out or opting in to the political funds and opting out or | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
opting in to donations to political parties. My Lord's, for many years I | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
have strongly defended the opting out provisions, but I do recognise | :15:02. | :15:08. | |
the pressure there. It does seem to me that the Labour Party has since | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
that Chris Kelly report, moved somewhat in the direction that | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
report was suggesting. Being an old cynic and an old negotiator, I | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
wasn't too keen on the move that we followed, my noble friend Lord | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
Collins report, not on principle, not the rights and wrongs of it. But | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
I thought the Labour Party was giving away one of the cards it | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
ought to be playing when multiparty negotiations started, which I hoped | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
at that time would be fairly soon. My Lord's, I'm not entirely in | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
favour ever what we have done, but the fact is we have made a move. | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
There has been no reciprocal move from the other parties, in | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
particular from the Conservative Party, who have the Government, have | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
the responsibility in Government. So we have a situation now, we're | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
following the reforms under Ed Miliband on the basis of my noble | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
friend's report. The Labour Party, trade unions, face a double opt in. | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
You opt into the political fund and opt in to pay an affiliation fee to | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
the Labour Party. My Lord's, no other source of funds and no other | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
political party places those same barriers. I have had occasion to | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
refer to this before. In the five years up to when we committed our | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
report under the trade union bill proceedings, ?64 million was donated | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
by trade unions to political parties, almost all of it to the | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
Labour Party. However, another 80 million was donated by other | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
organisations, over 80 million. The vast majority of which went to the | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
Conservative Party. My Lord's, whereas trade unions have to have a | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
separate political fund, had to provide for their members to opt out | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
of that political fund, and now have to opt in to the political fund, and | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
have to have a periodic renewal of that political fund, the other | :17:13. | :17:15. | |
organisations have no such restrictions. We are therefore | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
faced, in terms of the organisational - legal organisations | :17:23. | :17:25. | |
contribution to our political process, with a very lop sided | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
system. My Lord, the provisions of this bill refer to membership | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
organisations, by which I hope they mean not only trade unions but also | :17:37. | :17:43. | |
corporate entities, partnerships and others who have made donations to | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
political parties in the past and continue to do so. It will involve | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
the Co-operative organisations and friendly societies and there will be | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
particular problems for the cooperate party, which need to be | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
taken on board during the process here. But my Lord's, if all | :18:00. | :18:09. | |
organisations faced the same hurdles, and the same need to ensure | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
that their members took a positive decision to pay money to a political | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
party, then the public's anxiety and the public's suspicion of where that | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
money is going to and what strings are attached to it would be | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
significantly relieved. My Lord's, I have a number of particular issues | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
in relation to this bill, which I would return to in detail were it to | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
proceed further, after today. I do agree with noble Lord Bew and others | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
who have referred to the need to update the provisions of our | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
political fund regulations, in particular into areas of third | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
parties or front organisations and in particular to the importance of | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
social media as a means of communicating messages, which can | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
frequently clearly be targeted to particular constituencies and | :19:06. | :19:07. | |
particular groups of people. We need to catch up with that. It is clear | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
if the main purpose of this bill, which is to limit donations, the | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
level of donations, is to cubing seed, it has to be accompanied by | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
other provisions and clearly limits on spending, at a local and national | :19:26. | :19:39. | |
level, limits on the way in which organisations can channel their | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
money and most controversially of all, it has to be accompanied by a | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
degree of state funding in order that political parties can actually | :19:47. | :19:54. | |
flourish. My Lord's, I know that is not particularly important priority | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
in terms of a difficult fiscal situation, but nevertheless, I think | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
if the case were made that state funding is part of the solution and | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
were the solutions which Lord Tyler, in a different context, has put | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
forward in redistributing what currently exists in terms of state | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
funding in a more meaningful way, so that actually the net result was | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
relatively small, then they would accept it. My Lord's, what is really | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
key today is whatever our own views and the number of different views | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
have been expressed as to what this bill ought to cover, whatever our | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
individual views, the key issue today is whether the Government, in | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
the person of Lord Young, can commit itself to taking the initiative to | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
get and review a new start at looking on a consensual basis as | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
possible, the need to produce a comprehensive package, which will | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
put political funding on a fairer basis. We shouldn't kid ourselves, | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
my Lord's, when Sir Chris Kelly produced his report he referred to | :21:09. | :21:10. | |
the deep concern amongst the public. We have seen in recent days that | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
concern about interference of vested interests in our politics through | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
monetary proceedings, not all of which are as transparent as they | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
should be, but as Lord Bew said, transparency is key, but it's not | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
enough. I hope that the debate today will provoke the minister to make a | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
more positive response than his predecessors on this issue have and | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
to trigger a whole new start in looking at this issue so that we can | :21:42. | :21:48. | |
begin to put public trust back into the issue of funding of political | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
parties. My Lord's, I too congratulate my | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
noble friend, Lord aler, and all those involved in bringing forward | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
this bill. It is 17 years this month, since I led for my party on | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
the House's deliberations on the political parties elections and | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
Referendum Act of 2000, generally known now as Pipira. There were | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
hopes in those debates that its provisions for transparency | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
concerning donations to parties and a maximum cap on the party's | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
national spending would clean up the reputation of party funding. It was | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
believed in those debates that it could help to restore the principles | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
of a level playing field in politics as first set out in the corrupt and | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
illegal practices prevention act of 1883, which first standardised the | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
amount that could be spent on constituency election spenss. -- | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
expenses. Gladstone's Government introduced that bill in order to | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
prevent thousands of pounds counting for more than thousands of votes in | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
individual constituencies. But my Lord's, that principle has now been | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
almost completely eroded. The aims of the legislation in 2000 have | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
clearly not been met. Politics is not seen to be cleaner and the | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
effect of the more recent legislation has been to completely | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
undermine the principle of the 1883 legislation, which for over 100 | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
years, did much to prevent parties purchasing constituencies as a | :23:26. | :23:31. | |
result of superior spending power. The legislation suffered, I think, | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
from the absence of pre-legislative scrutiny. It was then subject to | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
very little scrutiny in the House of Commons. When we considered it in | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
this place, it was subject to over 500 Government amendments, whilst | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
other amendments, which would have helped to avoid many of the | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
problems, were not accepted. We missed the chance then to impose a | :23:55. | :24:02. | |
cap on donations. The effective introducing national spending | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
limits, permitting supposedly national spending to be targeted at | :24:06. | :24:14. | |
individual constituencies, drove the proverbial coach and horses through | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
the level playing field in constituency elections. Some of the | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
resulting problems, as identified recently, by the excellent | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
investigative journalist, Michael Crick, may shortly be tested in the | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
courts. But the only defence that I can see to many allegations that | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
have been made is that the legislation is said to be ambiguous. | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
That, my Lord's, is why we really do need greater clarity in legislation | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
and a commitment to re-establishing a more level playing field in | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
British politics, as provided for in this bill. | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
It is now clear that the very high limits on ostensibly national | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
campaigns and which I argued 17 years ago should have been lower, | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
are being abused. By spending superior resources in individual | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
targeted constituencies. The idea that any letter sent to a voter by a | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
political party is not in some way designed to promote that party's | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
electoral success in a car specific constituency within voter limits | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
defies basic common-sense. The failings of the legislation were | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
largely addressed in my view by the excellent report of the committee on | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
standards in Public life in 2011. The committee's report provided the | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
only possible route through which the coalition government could have | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
fulfilled the agreement on which it was based, to take the big-money out | :25:49. | :25:55. | |
of politics. But the vetoing of any increase, however modest, in | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
existing state funding for parties, prevented the possibility of | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
agreement of a cap on donations as was proposed for the reform at that | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
time of trade union funding. My Lords, in evidence to the committee | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
on standards of public life in 1994, I drop my own party's then policy on | :26:17. | :26:23. | |
party finance. That ash I troop up. This was firstly to cap individual | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
donations initially at ?50,000 a year from any individual or | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
organisation. As my friend Lord Wrigglesworth has said, this would | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
have avoided embarrassing it to all parties that has happened | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
subsequently. Secondly, my proposals were to prevent trade unions | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
effectively spending the members money without them properly choosing | :26:45. | :26:51. | |
to contribute to a party. And thirdly, to enable parties to | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
campaign with a limited increase in state funding, which presently | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
provides for things like distribution of election | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
communications in Parliamentary elections as well as research and | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
communication support to parties in parliament. In our debates in 2000, | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
I also argued for more realistic expenditure levels as the | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
constituency level, and lower limits on national expenditure by the | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
parties. This bill today takes those principles forward, and it sets out | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
carefully considered and balanced proposals which also update their | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
excellent work by the committee on standards in public life early in | :27:32. | :27:39. | |
the last parliament. The reason why we needed to address these issues | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
became more apparent not just in the 2015 general election, but also in | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
last year 's referendum campaign. As my noble friend Lord Tyler referred | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
to, there was effective laundry of political donations during the | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
recent EU referendum by the way of the Northern Ireland Democratic | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
Unionist Party, spending in parts of Great Britain where it does not | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
itself campaign. Parliament made special provision for Northern | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
Ireland in 2000, for reasons referred to by the noble Lord Lord | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
Pugh. But we then did not foresee this abuse spending rules in a | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
referendum. And it must soon be time to bring Northern Ireland into line | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
with rules that apply in Great Britain, and the Republic of | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
Ireland. Finally, I want to turn to the government's response to the | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
select committee on trade union to tickle funds and political party | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
funding. It was right as Lord Tyler said for the committee to remind the | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
Conservative Party. Their manifesto commitment to seek agreement on a | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
comprehensive package of party funding reform. And to call for the | :28:48. | :28:54. | |
renewal of cross-party talks. The government response which he quoted, | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
tries to kill off progress in those talks, for they have even begun, by | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
pretending, that an increase in funding to political parties is | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
impossible to achieve without increasing the overall burden on the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
taxpayer. My Lords, I would never suggest, the very limited spending | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
on democratic engagement by political parties could ever be at | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
the expense of funding of things like schools and hospitals. Or any | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
kind of tax interest. I would suggest instead, that we look to cut | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
the cost of government politicking through government advertising. | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
Label Lord the minister recently disclosed in an answer to a written | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
question from me that the government currently spending well over ?100 | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
million in year on its own advertising. This includes for | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
example, almost ?700,000 on promoting its policy, of a tax break | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
for married couples. Many such campaigns my Lords seem to be more | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
based on promotion of Conservative Party policy, and public interest. | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
The government response to the select committee says that the cost | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
of the committee on standards of public life proposals, would be | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
almost 20,000,000,000-a-year at 2010 prices. But much of this my Lords | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
could be found by reallocating existing party spending. Provided by | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
the government. The bill before us makes provision to reduce spending | :30:30. | :30:37. | |
in other areas by ending the policy development grants and by | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
amalgamating the cost of delivery, freepost election mailings, please | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
can indication is in the present system are sent by individual | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
candidates at a cost to the taxpayers in the 2010 general | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
election of some ?28 million. This communication in my view could be | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
more cheaply combined into a single bucket, as I first successfully | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
proposed for the mayoral elections back in 2000. And it has been | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
adopted successfully in mayoral elections ever since. The | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
combinations of the savings and production in the government | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
advertising budget could cover a modest investment in clean up | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
politics that was proposed by the committee on standards in Public | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
life in 2011. Politics would be much better, were each citizen Roger but | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
very modestly to the costs of democracy. This would be a return to | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
a ban on the selling of influence and access which takes place at the | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
moment as the parties need to fundraiser for the cost of their | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
election campaigns. Of course, in response to these proposals, there | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
will be some anger, distortion and misinformation in elements of the | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
press. Which would prefer to protect its own power to present issues to | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
the public in its own way, as opposed to letting parties and | :32:04. | :32:08. | |
candidates to mutate directly. And without all their views being | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
filtered by the media. It is time my Lords, to make progress on these | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
issues and the bill before us shows how this can be done. My Lords must | :32:18. | :32:28. | |
declare an interest, I was treasurer of the better together campaign. In | :32:29. | :32:30. | |
Scotland during the recent referendum. I would just like to | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
point out that every single party I can think of, has been, suffered if | :32:37. | :32:44. | |
you like the Liberal Democrats, Tories DBP Sinn Fein everyone except | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
for the Scottish Nationalists. If we are talking about caps on | :32:49. | :32:57. | |
expenditure, one and a half million was raised by the Scottish | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
Nationalists, the yes campaign come of that one and a half million, 1 | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
million came from a single couple. Said two thirds of the total | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
contribution for whole campaign, which was a very important | :33:10. | :33:11. | |
constitutional issue came from two people. The only point I'm making is | :33:12. | :33:18. | |
that if we are talking about caps onto nations I believe it should | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
certainly apply to referenda as much as elections. | :33:24. | :33:34. | |
My Lords firstly I congratulate my noble Lord Lord Tyler for securing | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
the second reading of his private members bill today. They being so | :33:39. | :33:47. | |
late in the session, I suspect he will make no further progress, which | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
is a matter of regret and one that I repeatedly brought to the attention | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
of the government to look at the procedures that enable the grand | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
committee to be used for some committee stage or private members | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
bills for progress to be made quicker. To move on from the snail | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
's pace that we often move for private members legislation. Much of | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
those bills are sensible, and we will benefit if they reach the | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
statute book. The noble Lord stresses a number of issues that | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
have been on the table for quite some time. These are important | :34:24. | :34:32. | |
issues that would be beneficial. I do not necessarily agree with all of | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
the clauses of the bill while it is moving in the right direction and | :34:37. | :34:39. | |
the noble Lord made an important point in respect of the issues | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
regarding referenda. And I was pleased, that they brought the SNP | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
and, all parties have had their issues fared in terms of this debate | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
today. I'm sure that the noble Lord is going to say that the government | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
can't impose consensus on the political parties. But they are open | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
to debate and dialogue. Well that is fine as far as it goes. But it could | :35:05. | :35:10. | |
equally, the government is drawn from a political party, so they have | :35:11. | :35:12. | |
more interest in this matter than that statement would imply. I threw | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
much agree with the noble Lord that the party should get around the | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
table to seek agreement on all of these matters. Prior to the election | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
of the Labour government in 1997, there was in effect no legislation, | :35:26. | :35:34. | |
in respect of political parties, and national campaign expenditure. The | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
Labour government asked on the political standards of public life | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
what got out of that. It came out as the critical parties and referenda | :35:42. | :35:49. | |
Max. Are the legislation, including loans to political parties, postal | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
voting and individual electoral legislation over the period of the | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
government 's term of office. Seeking agreement among the parties | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
was and should be a high priority and for me that is the way to | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
proceed. Since then, that hasn't always been the case. The only have | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
to look at the decisions to speed up after 2010, the reduction in the | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
number of Parliamentary seats by 50, the curtailing of the boundary | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
review and Parliamentary process while at the same time increasing | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
the number of members at this house either previous Prime Minister by | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
numbers in comparison to number of appointments by his predecessors | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
made the day either Labour or Conservative prime ministers, raised | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
a few eyebrows to say the least. The noble Lord is rightfully speaking | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
about the need for action, to do with the funding of political | :36:43. | :36:44. | |
parties and the noble Lord Lord Granada made similar points. I think | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
it is important that any changes that take place to not unfairly | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
penalised or give advantage to any political party. My own party, the | :36:56. | :37:03. | |
Labour Party, its histories from the Tribune movement. It was formed on | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
the 27th of every 1900 in Farringdon Road and elected its first 's Labour | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
MPs that same year. Kia Hardy and the other person's name went into | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
history, Richard Bell, elected for Derby and there has been a member in | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
Derby ever since. But the first candidate was in 1870 when somebody | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
stood as the Liberal Labour candidate in the Southwark | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
by-election. He was described as an "English radical agitator of humble | :37:38. | :37:45. | |
origins". I would have liked to have met him. It should start from as | :37:46. | :37:56. | |
level as a place as possible. That is not to say that any party or | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
candidate may not have an advantage, they may have a better candidate. | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
They may have more fertile ground from which they seek they may run a | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
better campaign, they may have raised more money, and they may have | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
more party workers. But looking at the bill itself, is builds on the | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
act and builds on what a pickle party is. I have no objection to | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
setting a limit on the size of donations but I would probably want | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
to explore the figures and the dates to see if they are the correct ones. | :38:29. | :38:38. | |
I welcome some of the measures. I have no problem in exploring the | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
changes to the way that physical parties receive funding and if they | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
are going to implement any change in respect to donations and Sirius | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
consideration is going to have two be given. I am so a bit nervous at | :38:50. | :38:56. | |
the mention of the word registered supporter. I am sure the noble Lords | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
will be aware of why that is the case. This whole area needs to be | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
revised, and the sooner that happens, the better." He three | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
concerns the functions of the electoral commission. I am of the | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
view that the committee on standards of public life led by the noble Lord | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
should be invited by the government to take a detailed look in its | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
functions, it has been in existence since 2000 and I think the time has | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
come again for that review to be done. The noble Lord Lord Triesman, | :39:32. | :39:39. | |
has made important points and I say that as a former member of the | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
editorial commission, there are many good members, I have huge respect | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
for them. They work as hard as they can to do that within the powers | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
that are given them. So very much a supporter hoping that something can | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
be done to get this under way sooner rather than later. | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
Compelling points were made about the facts that donations in Northern | :40:05. | :40:12. | |
Ireland are still secret. There should be a decision made about | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
whether it's time to make those donations public. We need a | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
consolidation act to get the law, which is specialised, into one | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
place, so it's easy to understand for the practitioners, the | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
candidates, party workers, members and the general public. These are | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
important and need to be dealt W I will leave my remarks there. I thank | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
Lord Tyler for bringing this here today. I look forward to the noble | :40:39. | :40:45. | |
Lord's response. My Lord's, I'm grateful to the noble | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
Lord, Lord aler, for the -- Tyler, for the opportunity to debate this | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
important issue and to all noble Lord's who have spoken in the | :40:54. | :41:01. | |
debate. I congraph Lord Tyler, with whom I have been debating for the | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
past 57 years, he said 55, I make it 57. I congratulate him on producing | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
a substantial piece of legislation, a richer diet than we're normally | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
used to on a Friday. As he said, this is based on work from MPs of | :41:16. | :41:22. | |
all three parties, supported by some professional input. I'm grateful to | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
him for his kind words and I reciprocate and compliment him on | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
his consistent campaign on matters of constitutional reform over a | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
number of decades. As he himself indicated, he's been here long | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
enough to know that a bill which gets its second reading on the first | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
of two Houses on the last sitting Friday has a short life expectancy. | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
But it's an important subject which deserves an airing. I was struck by | :41:49. | :41:55. | |
what Lord Wallis said opening a short debate on a similar subject on | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
November 3 last year. This is what he said, "My Lord's, party funding | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
reform is rather like Lord's reform. We come back to it every other year, | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
or at least once every Parliament. We get round to setting up a Working | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
Group, the parties fail to agree, we go away and significant change is | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
rarely made." End of quote. I think that parallel is ininstructive I | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
will return to it later. The current regime to regulate political parties | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
and party funding was established in the PPER Referendum Act in 2000. I | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
think the noble Lord was our respective party spokesman as it | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
went through the other place. Since then there have been a number of | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
proposals to reform the system. Indeed both the proposals of the | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
Committee on Standards in Public Life in 2011 and those of Sir Hayden | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
Philips in 2007 are drawn on in this bill. However, despite a decade of | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
talks, there has been no cross-party agreement on changes to party | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
funding. Wide ranging talks were held in 2012 and 2013 with | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
representatives meeting seven times. Many of the issues raised by noble | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
Lord's today were covered during those talks. Unfortunately, as on | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
previous occasions, the parties did not reach agreement during those | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
talks. No consensus has emerged since then and understandably, the | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
Government is reluctant to make changes without that consent. In an | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
earlier debate on March 9 last year the noble Lord Tyler quoted Winston | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
Churchill in 1948, who counselled against one party imposing its will | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
on another on mat affecting the -- matters affecting the interests of | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
rival parties. Several noble Lord's have called for cross-party talks on | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
this subject to be resumed. For these to be worthwhile there would | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
need to be some agreement about the basis of the talks, so we simply | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
don't repeat the fruitless exercises of the past. I will return to this | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
point at the end of my remarks. This bill uses the proposals of the CSPL | :44:01. | :44:07. | |
from 2011 in particular as its foundation. We must remember that | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
report did not receive cross-party support. Indeed there were I senting | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
opinions within the report itself. Both Labour and Conservative members | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
of the committee disagreed with its conclusions and Lord Bew reminded us | :44:20. | :44:27. | |
this afternoon. The bill suggests re-allocating and increasing state | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
funding for political parties in clauses 10 to 14, a subject touched | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
on. The Government does not believe there is any public appetite for | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
more taxpayer funding of politicians and political parties at this time. | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
Noble Lord's will be familiar with the vice of Nick Clegg in a debate | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
in the other place on November 23, 2011, I quote, "The case cannot be | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
made for greater state funding of political parties at a time when | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
bubts are being squeezed and economic recovery remains the | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
highest priority." That advice seems as relevant today as it was then. | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
Substantial demands are to be made on the public purse to restore the | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
building in which politicians work, it might test the public's patience | :45:12. | :45:18. | |
if we were to ask for significantly greater support for the trade we | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
carry on in it. We want to reduce the cost of politics, we are | :45:23. | :45:24. | |
reducing the size of the House of Commons, which I hope noble Lord's | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
will support when the relevant SI comes before us. Freezing | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
ministerial pay, and stopping the unanticipated hikes in the cost of | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
short money. Often - we tried to reduce the number of peers in the | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
last Parliament, as I know to my cost. But it didn't have the | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
consensus that we need. Often the starting point of our discussions is | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
that the spending of political parties should be reduced and that | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
in the absence of stricter rules an arms race is taking place between | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
the parties. Research published by the CSPL in August 2016 show that | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
this is not the case. There has been no arms race in party funding in | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
recent years. My party spent less in the 2015 general election than in | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
2010, that was a lower figure than in 2005. The less we spend, the | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
better we seem to do. Taking into account inflation, that research by | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
CSPL showed a steep fall in central party spending since 1997. And | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
neither of the two main parties in the 2015 general elections, neither | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
of the two main parties, came close to its spending limit. Like other | :46:39. | :46:46. | |
recent attempts at reform, this bill suggests complex and, at times, | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
controversial structural changes to the party funding system. Talks that | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
are focussed on these ideas, so far, have always failed. Perhaps real | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
progress could be made if the focus was instead on smaller reforms that | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
may gain cross-party support. Here I return to the parallel drawn by the | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
noble Lord Wallis with Lord's reform, as I know to my cost. Heroic | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
attempts to reform your Lordship's House failed because there was no | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
consensus between the two Houses and between the two main parties. | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
Subsequently there has been incremental reform with two Private | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
Members' Bills reaching the statute book and with the possibility of | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
further reform coming from the Lord speaker's committee. I wonder | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
whether Lorens Burns who has tackled difficult subjects such as hunting | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
with dogs, the trade union act and Lord's reform might there after | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
apply his resourcefulness and ingenuity to the subject -- to this | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
subject. As with incremental reform of our House, I think we should | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
adopt the same approach with party funding, moving ahead with smaller | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
reforms which may command broad support, rather than trying and | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
failing to achieve an all or nothing solution, as this bill does. I was | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
interested by the, by what the noble Lord Bew said in the debate on March | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
9. Commenting on my party's evidence to Lord burns, which suggested | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
smaller reforms rather than an all-or-nothing big bang solution, he | :48:19. | :48:27. | |
said, "That is an interesting idea, we could approach those things in | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
the event we don't achieve the big bang solution. He repeated that | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
suggestion again this afternoon. These smaller reforms could include | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
finding practical ways to encourage more and smaller donations from | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
wider audiences. As the minister for the constitution said when he | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
appears before the constitution committee earlier this week, the | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
Government is open to constructive debate and dialogue on small-scale | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
measures that could command broad support, if there was a positive | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
reaction to such a potential step from the main political parties. | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
Today's debate has shown that actually there is such an appetite | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
and I'll return to that in a moment, when I've addressed some of the | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
issues raised in the debate. Both the noble Lord Bew and the noble | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
Lord Rennard raised the issue about the lack of transparency of | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
donations in Northern Ireland. On January 5, the SOS for Northern | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
Ireland -- Secretary of State for Northern Ireland announced he would | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
write to Northern Ireland political parties seeking their views on | :49:27. | :49:34. | |
ending the kusht arrangements on -- current arrangements on donations | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
and loans to political parties. He remains keen to make progress on the | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
issue of donations to political parties now that the election has | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
concluded. The noble Lord also asked about Lord hodge son's review by | :49:48. | :49:54. | |
third party campaigning. The Government welcomed that review of | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
third party campaign in the 2015 general election and we welcomed his | :50:00. | :50:11. | |
conclusions. He suggested recommendations on tightening the | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
rules but also on relaxing them. My noble friend Lord True raised two | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
important issues, firstly, impermissible donations and he quite | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
rightly said that all three parties have been affected but he focussed | :50:28. | :50:31. | |
his comments on the Michael Ground case, and asked whether the | :50:32. | :50:34. | |
Electoral Commission should be able to secure the return of a donations | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
which are later found to be the proceeds of crime. The Electoral | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
Commission has recommended that the rules on company donations should be | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
reviewed following their investigation of donations made by | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
5th avenue limited to the Liberal Democrats in 2005. We are | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
considering this issue alongside a number of other issues related to | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
donation matters. My noble friend also raised the question of reports | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
about ?250,000 donation offered to the Green Party before the Richmond | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
by-election. This was denied by the Green Party. On the Electoral | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
Commission records do not show any such donation being made. Laws | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
around such donations relate largely to ensuring they come from a | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
permissible source and that they are properly declared to the Electoral | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
Commission in order to comply with transparency requirements. If this | :51:32. | :51:39. | |
case had done so, it unlikely would have broken any laws. There's a good | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
question about whether the law applies to parties as well as | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
individuals. We need to reflect on that further. The noble Lord made a | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
valid point about social media and the changing landscape of political | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
campaigning. I agree with him that it would be better if all parties | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
were less reliant on large donations and we had a broughter base of | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
membership donations on which to rely. My Lord's, this bill proposing | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
a number of reforms to political party funding, including caps on | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
donations and new schemes for public funding. These are complex | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
structural reforms which could only be taken forward on the basis of | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
cross-party consensus. No such consensus exists at this time. The | :52:24. | :52:26. | |
Government believes it is premature to consider a bill at this timement | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
However, my Lord's, anticipating there would be an appetite in | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
today's debate to make progress and to try to break the log jam we now | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
have, I spoke to the minister for the constitution earlier this | :52:42. | :52:43. | |
morning. He would be happy to have a meeting with the noble Lord, Lord | :52:44. | :52:48. | |
Tyler, and other Lord's, who have spoken in this debase to find a way | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
forward, along the lines that I have suggested of incremental reforms | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
that can achieve cross-party support. Now, that may not be the | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
giant step forward the noble Lord was hoping for in his opening | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
remarks, but I hope he will accept it as a constructive response to | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
this debate and a helpful way forward, even though we can't take | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
his bill very much further forward today. I'm extremely grateful to a | :53:13. | :53:20. | |
number of members for giving up their Friday to discuss what may | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
have seemed a rather arcane subject to some and indeed one that because | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
of the nature of this bill and the limited time that it's obviously | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
going to be given to it between now and the end this session, to rather | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
an academic subject as well. I hope that the noble Lord Young will take | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
it that every single person who has contributed to this debate today is | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
effectively echoing something must be done. I'll come back to the | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
particular suggestion he made at the end of his speech in a moment. I | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
want to put on record two or three points that have come out through | :53:56. | :53:57. | |
the debate, which may need to be put on one side. First, I am not | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
suggesting and it has never been suggested there should be a net | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
increase in state funding. Indeed, in the bill, as I think the noble | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
Lord recognises there is recognition that we could find some ways to make | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
substantial savings. He himself referred to my right honourable | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
friend Nick Clegg who in his evidence to the Select Committee, I | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
think colleagues on the Select Committee will redual, actually | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
Kated what -- indicated what savings might be made and committed himself | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
to that, that any change should incur no net increase in state | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
funding. Some reallocation yes. Lord Rennard said we have over the years | :54:40. | :54:42. | |
put forward suggestions about how savings could be made in other ways. | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
This was a point raised by local authority Whitfy and my -- Whitty | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
and my noble friend. I am very conscious of the point made by the | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
Lord, my particular bill has been substantially overtaken by concerns | :55:02. | :55:08. | |
about the way in which funding has gone into referenda campaigns. I | :55:09. | :55:12. | |
would hope that the noble Lord, the minister, would recognise that is a | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
very important additional issue that we should all be thinking about and | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
addressing now. Before there might be another one, in two or three | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
years' time, we don't want a repeat of that particular concern. | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
My Lords, I turn now ready to this issue of consensus. How does the | :55:30. | :55:39. | |
noble Lord know that there is a consensus? Any more than Mr Skidmore | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
knows there was a consensus. Until the government actually accept the | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
recommendation, the very clear recommendation of the select | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
committee that some new initiative must be taken, we do not know what | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
there is a consensus, how far that consensus may go. It is already | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
clear, that the noble Lord and I truly agree with every point that | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
was made, to catch up some of the issues, true to his name, I think | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
that he speaks with considerable authority about the difficulties | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
that may be faced by those who have got too much money to throw around | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
in the present situation. But every single member who has contributed | :56:19. | :56:19. | |
has clearly injured -- has clearly indicated, we have | :56:20. | :56:27. | |
got to address these issues. That is the point that the noble Lord will | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
take back. I make one further point. He has demonstrated not just today | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
but on previous occasions, that he is very sensitive to the concerns | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
that are often expressed, where we are not direct the affected by how | :56:44. | :56:53. | |
elections are run but I think have a very proper constitutional | :56:54. | :56:54. | |
responsibility to look hard at electoral law. I wonder therefore | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
whether he would commit himself to taking part in the discussions that | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
his honourable friend has now agreed we might have. Yes I think we could | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
break the logjam but I very much hope that the noble Lord will be | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
prepared to take part with us. One further point I want to make. We | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
cannot ignore the advice of the electoral commission. They have made | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
a recommendation about reviewing the definitions of regulated candidate | :57:24. | :57:25. | |
spending and regulated critical parties spending that had been in | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
place since 2000, and the focus on spending in constituencies. It is a | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
major theme of my speech earlier today, of my bill and concern in the | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
public at the moment. If we are to regain the trust that the global | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
Lord quite rightly identifies, we have to identify the issue and I'm | :57:46. | :57:47. | |
sure that the electoral commission would be happy to address it. With | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
that my Lords I would like to request your Lordships house to give | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
the bill a second reading. The question is that this bill Nabi read | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
the second time as many now say content, not content. The content is | :58:04. | :58:12. | |
have it. Bylaws I move that this Bill be committed to a committee of | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
the whole house. Has many of that opinion say content. The country not | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
content, the not content have it. My Lords I beg to leave that the house | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
do now adjourned. That the house to now adjourned. | :58:30. | :58:33. |