Browse content similar to 29/02/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It affects all of us, and we will all have to live with the | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
consequences of the most contentious piece of legislation of | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
the entire Cameron Government. Tonight, the plan to reform the | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
National Health Service. The legislation is far bigger than | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
the law which created an institution all parties profess to | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
love and protect. Does the system have to stay the same forever and | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
ever? The Health Secretary tells us, | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
there is nothing wrong with the reforms, it is all about | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
perceptions. You could say blame me as a communicator, but if people | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
are literally distorting and misrepresenting what the bill does, | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
I just literally have to fight back against that. | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
These people have to make the health service work, they will be | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
putting their anxieties and hopes directly to the Health Minister, | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
who thinks the whole reform is solely about making the system work | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
better for patients. And one sunrises as another departs. | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
How long before News Corporation gets out of British newspapers for | :01:08. | :01:16. | |
good, as James Murdoch quits. Another day, another pile of | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
argument about the Government's attempts to reform the healthcare | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
system, Labour claim tonight that the Government was trying to rush | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
its now very knocked about bill through parliament, by the time of | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
the budget next month. Rubbish said the Government. The plan described | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
by a senior NHS boss, as so big you can see it from space, has had a | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
very checkered history. Promoted by the Liberal Democrats, and amended | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
by them. Introduced into parliament in January last year, then | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
suspended for a while, now approaching final votes. It is not | :01:46. | :01:56. | |
:01:56. | :02:19. | ||
what the Government had hoped for. Away from Whitehall and Westminster, | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
to Worthing. A beach on the south coast. The Government's health | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
reforms look set to make it on to dry land, what exactly do they | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
change, how and when? What we have here is a charity that | :02:32. | :02:38. | |
is part of, in effect, the NHS. asked the Health Secretary to take | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
us to somewhere that exsemplified the reforms they are trying to get | :02:41. | :02:51. | |
:02:51. | :02:51. | ||
going, he has brought us to Action For Deafness. This charity is being | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
billed as the best provider of help for those who are hard of hearing. | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
It isn't strictly the NHS, as it stands it is asked by the health | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
service to cater for patients' needs. Lansley's bill is supposed | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
to give help to give suppliers like this, who want the best for their | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
patients, the work. In 60 seconds, Josie clearly isn't fully aware of | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
what is going on, explain it? we are setting out to do, it comes | :03:20. | :03:26. | |
down to, firstly, making sure that you as a patient, everything that | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
happens to you, you should get really good information, and | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
wherever possible you should have some choice about the service that | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
is provided to you, including where it is provided from. Secondly, you | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
are registered with a GPs' surgery, your GP locally, and doctors and | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
nurses around locally in Worthing, they should be in a position where | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
they are able to design the services that you need locally, and | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
use the NHS resources to make sure those services are here for you. | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
Days ago Nick Clegg urged his party to take pride in the fact that they | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
had saved the NHS from privatisation. It strikes a bit of | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
fear with privatisation. Because, just explain to me what is it? From | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
my point of view, we are not going to do privatisation, explain to me | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
what it is you think privatisation means as a problem? It will just go | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
out to various people, are those people going to care like the | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
National Health Service cares now. I have had a lot of dealings with | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
the National Health Service regarding my father, he died a | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
couple of years ago, to try to bring all those bits and pieces | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
together was one long fight, but we got there in the end. Because we | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
all worked together. If it is going to be put out to privatisation, is | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
it all going to work. The sort of thing I have been saying, actually | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
it is going to be NHS care, like this is NHS. It doesn't have a big | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
sign saying it, but this is NHS care. The political peril of this | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
bill is clear, while the Health Secretary is down south, at Prime | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
Minister's Questions, Labour's leader goes on the attack for yet | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
another week. Let me refresh his memory as to who opposes his bill. | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
There is no good the Deputy Prime Minister smirking, I don't know | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
whether he opposes or supports the bill, which day of the week. Oh he | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
supports it, oh, he supports it, Mr Speaker. What you are saying is the | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
critics don't really understand the bill? I have to say, there are a | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
lot of things that I have seen said about the bill that appear to | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
suggest they haven't even bothered to read it. That includes coalition | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
partners, doesn't it? No. Of course it does? To be fair, Shirley | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
Williams, actually, that is the point. We have spent some | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
considerable time working with Shirley and others in the Lords, to | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
get to a point where, yes, we are going to make some amendments, but | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
they are amendments that give us, and them, a sense of actually, | :05:56. | :06:04. | |
finally putting precise reassurance in. Health Minister Mr Bef van cuts | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
the turf. Lansley's predecessors include the founding fathers of the | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
NHS. Is it up there with Beveridge these reforms? I wouldn't say. | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
they are going to last for a long time? The character is very | :06:20. | :06:27. | |
different. If you go back to 1950, Bevan said there is the tension | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
between the centralised funding system and decentralised | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
administration. And actually, over the years, the fact that the centre | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
has provided all the money, has meant the centre has had all the | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
control. Andrew Lansley was so trusted by the Prime Minister, that | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
years out of forming Government, he was the only one of David Cameron's | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
team to be promised he would make the grade, and go from Shadow | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
Health Secretary to the Government job. The idea was no major reform | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
change, reorganisation, steady as she goes, the public was to trust | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
the Conservatives on the NHS. But now, because of these reforms, it | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
is almost certain the NHS will be a battleground at the next legs, that | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
was never part of their plan. -- next election, that was never | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
part of their plan. It is one thing to get a bill through parliament | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
against opposition, many have done it. But verdicts on policy come | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
later, in the real world of people's experience. The challenge | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
for this Government is, while they may will it to work, it is probably, | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
very soon, out of their hands. As you heard there, the Health | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
Secretary was at a centre for the hard of hearing in Worthing earlier | :07:26. | :07:33. | |
today, by happy chance, it is also the town where Oscar Wilde wrote | :07:34. | :07:43. | |
the Importance of Being Ernest. Did you anticipate the sort of trouble | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
that you have run into on this bill? Yes, I always knew there | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
would be, there is always noise, the NHS matters, so people make a | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
lot of passionate remarks about it. You could go back, 2003, do you | :07:55. | :08:04. | |
remember, it is only less than a decade ago, Alan Milburn put | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
forward foundation Trusts, over 100 members of his own parliament | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
rebelled against him, The Royal College of Nursing came out against | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
it, others said it would be the end of the NHS. You are the person who | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
said in 2006 you would build consensus on the need for change? | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
You failed? On the need for change, absolutely we have, and on the | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
principles of the bill. If you look at it, not only amongst | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
organisations, but last year, when the Future Forum went to thousands | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
of NHS staff, at hundreds of meetings across the country, they | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
established there was a consensus on the principles. Would the bill | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
have been any different if you had not been in coalition? If it had | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
just been a Conservative Government, we would have started now the a | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
different place. The bill is better as a result of the coalition coming | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
together to shape it. Actually, I think, the central point, from the | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
Liberal Democrats' point of view, has been democratic, local, | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
democratic accountability. Local Government, in the new health and | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
well being boards, bringing together health, social care, | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
public health, into a combined forum, where local voices, and | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
local views can be added to professional views from the health | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
service. Actually it is stronger, as a consequence of being a | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
coalition bill. If you can't take cabinet colleagues with you, on a | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
profoundly important piece? We have taken cabinet colleagues with us. | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
They sign off on one thing and then they try to amend it? I'm sorry, we, | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
as a Government, as a coalition Government together, designed the | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
legislation. As a coalition together, Nick Clegg, David Cameron | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
and I, we want to improve the bill, we want to respond to people's | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
concerns, we did that last year. I think we did that very successfully. | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
Are you also going to maintain that this rigmarole we have been through, | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
the legislation being introduce, paused for consultation, and | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
amendments introduced many of which you accept, that was all | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
anticipated too was it? No, I thought when we published the White | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
Paper, which we did in 2010, and we had 6,000 consultation responses, | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
that actually most of the concerns would be there. It turned out it | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
didn't happen that way. That, it wasn't until the bill was in the | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
Commons, that many people said, we're worried about this and that. | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
Actually it was important to pause the bill, to listen, and to respond. | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
We did that. I think, actually, what that demonstrated was the | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
support, in principle, for the bill, across the service. It gave us a | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
lot of recommendations, and we were able to accept them. Which is why, | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
actually, I think, across the NHS, there is an understanding among | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
many staff that this is actually, in a sense, the bill they helped | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
shape. Doesn't it also demonstrate that however well you may be on top | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
of your brief, you are a hopeless communicator? No, I don't think | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
that at all. You didn't take people with you? Then that didn't happen | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
to any a second on health legislation at any time in the past. | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
Patricia Hewitt stood up in front of the Royal College of Nursing and | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
they booed her. Ken Clark, a fabulous communicator, he tried | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
reform in the early 1990s, and the BMA said it was the end of the | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
world as we know it, they put up posters with a picture of Ken Clark | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
asking what do you call a man who doesn't take medical advice. There | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
is no way of undertaking major reform, important reform, and | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
imagining that you are going not to be misrepresented, distorted or the | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
subject of argument, not going to be the subject of genuine concerns, | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
and genuine issues, that you have to genuinely respond to. I think we | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
have pretty much reached the stage where quite a lot of the | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
disinformation out there is a problem too. People are saying | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
things that are literally not true. The list of organisations, | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
organisations that ought to know about the NHS, as well as you know | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
about the NHS, the Faculty of Public Health, BMA, nurse, midwives | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
and all the rest of it? The Family Doctor Association, and the | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
representatives of Trusts and Hospitals. Are you saying they are | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
ignorant, have they fallen for propaganda? They are engaged in | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
various campaigns for various purposes. When you actually get to | :12:23. | :12:30. | |
it, take The Royal College of Nursing, for example. When do you | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
think they opposed the bill? January, up until that point they | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
had been literally with us. They said they supported the bill. What | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
changed? They fell victim to some piece of propaganda or something? | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
You tell me. Maybe they read the bill? I tried to find out what | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
change caused them to change their minds. What is your theory? I think | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
they were angry with the Government because there was a continuation of | :12:55. | :13:03. | |
pay restraint and the pensions issues, frankly, I find it...These | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
Organisations if they are against the bill, they have a right to be? | :13:06. | :13:12. | |
How can it be we introduce the bill in January 2011, for a year The | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
Royal College of Nursing work with us, say they support the bill. The | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
general secretary sits in my office on more than one occasion, saying | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
they support the bill. We make the amendments they looked for in the | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
course of the discussions we had with them last year, and suddenly | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
they say they are against it, well, because actually, other things were | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
going on. Can you guarantee, finally, that if this bill goes | :13:34. | :13:40. | |
through, and it is now much improved, you claim, that it will | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
be the last reform of the NHS, that you can foresee for the next ten | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
years? Yeah. I think it is a major piece of legislation. Why? Because | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
we are dealing with issues that haven't been dealt with in the past. | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
The reason we need the legislation is to effect a transfer of | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
responsibility and power, to local authorities and local health | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
organisations. It doesn't deal with the fundamental problem, that the | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
NHS, for not much longer, can be afforded? It does very much help | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
with that. What it does is it puts the decision making responsibility, | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
increasingly, in the hands of people who can use resources better. | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
Rationing is inconceivable, in your view? Proirt setting is necessary, | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
and should be done by -- priority setting is necessary and should be | :14:27. | :14:35. | |
done by the doctors and nurses with the care of the patients. That is | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
rationing? It is not, that is depriving people access to services, | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
getting people the right care, at the right time, in the right place, | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
is what it's about. Thank you. With us is the Shadow Health Secretary, | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
Andy Burnham. Apart from taking �20 billion out, what is your policy on | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
the NHS? We had a successful NHS when this Government came in, | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
judged by the Commonwealth fund to be one of, if not the best | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
healthcare system in the world. What they have done in the 18 | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
months in power, is take the self- confident NHS, destablise it, and | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
demoralise it, and turn it into an organisation fearful for the if you | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
are tue. We will be the judge of what -- Future. We will be the | :15:17. | :15:23. | |
judge of what they turned it into, what is your policy? We have a | :15:23. | :15:25. | |
planned National Health Service that for 60 years delivered care. | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
You haven't a policy other than what exists? I have a policy, a | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
National Health Service that is planned and provides care to a | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
whole population, not legislation for a market in healthcare, that | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
basically, breaks all of that apart. No change? No, and one of the | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
arguments I would make, one of the problems with this bill, it is a | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
distraction from the real reform the NHS needs. It needs service | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
reform, not back office structural reform. It needs reform? It needs | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
more care in the patients' homes in the community, changes to service | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
on the ground. The whole debate about the structures of the NHS s a | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
massive distraction to the change of services we need on the ground. | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
In policy terms, what are you advocating? I have just explained, | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
we need service change. You have asserted people need more care in | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
their homes? In the ageing society, we need to bring together health | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
and social care. It was an argument I made as Health Secretary. | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
would you do that? We needed to reform the social care system to | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
provide more prevention in people's homes, better integration with the | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
health service. This bill is a recipe for fragmentation, and a | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
move away from the integrated care we need to see. I'm interested in | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
what you want to do. Is it just coincidence, that when you are in | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Government, Tony Blair boasts about the scars on his back, that come, | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
he said, from taking on vests interests in the public sector, and | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
that when you are in opposition, you basic clo dance to the vested | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
interests -- basically dance to the vests interests tune? I don't agree | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
with that. The it is not opportunism, what they did was make | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
a catastrophic mistake, by combining the biggest-ever | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
financial challenge in the NHS, with the biggest-ever top-down | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
reorganisation. They would do well now, at this late stage, to give | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
the NHS the stability it needs to face the financial challenge. That | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
is what I will be doing now. I will be giving the NHS the ability to | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
focus on changing services, make them more sustainable so, they can | :17:33. | :17:41. | |
face the future. Will there be any detail in what you will do, should | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
you be elected? I was part of Government that took the NHS, that | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
was on its knees in 1997, and turned it into one of the best | :17:49. | :17:54. | |
healthcare systems in the world. needs changing? It needs service | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
change. I have always argued for that. We made some difficult change | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
to skefrss in Government. We made changes to stroke services in | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
London, maternity services in Greater Manchester. These are the | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
difficult changes the NHS needs. That is the nettle all politicians | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
need to grasp. If we are in the position where we are always using | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
the NHS as a political football we will never get there. That is what | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
the bill should focus on, this bill is a massive distraction from it. | :18:22. | :18:28. | |
With us now is the Minister of State for Health Simon Burns, and | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
an ensemble of healthcare professionals, between them they | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
represent thousands of nurses, doctors and patients across England, | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
and listen to those who have been patients of the NHS. Some agree | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
with Government reforms, others are sceptical. Let's start with this | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
accusation about The Royal College of Nursing. Did you sit in Andrew | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
Lansley's office and tell him you believed in the bill? Sat in Andrew | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
Lansley's office many times, telling him we had severe anxieties | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
and concerns about this bill, but we were committed to try to work | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
with it, and we worked with it for a year, and we didn't get anywhere, | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
we made the decision that we would now withdraw our support, because | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
while there was a lot of listening, there wasn't much action. So you | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
did tell him you supported the bill in one sense, but when it came to | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
it you decided you couldn't? thought it was the responsible | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
thing to do, with the elected Government of the day, to try to | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
work with this, to see if we could change it, and we didn't succeed. | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
This is a very, very significant difference of emphasis, what is | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
your recollection? I was at some of the meetings, not all, my | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
recollection is similar to Andrew Lansley's. We did listen, we have | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
made changes that responded to what The Royal College of Nurse iting | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
was asking for. For example, they wanted a nurse on all -- The Royal | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
College of Nursing was asking for. They wanted a nurse on all the | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
clinical boards, following the Future Forum review, we have sed | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
that, and that is now happening. We have accepted that and that is | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
now happening. Is your recollection about the British Medical | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
Association in any sense similar? With all reforms there will be | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
people who are for it, within an organisation, and people who aren't. | :20:08. | :20:17. | |
What we found with the responses to the consultation document, that the | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
BMA were supportive of some things, but less happy with others. When | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
the Future Forum reported its recommendations, which we accepted | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
last June, they warmly welcomed that, because they were taking on | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
board ideas to improve and strengthen the bill. So Dr Hamish | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
Meldrum, did you also initially support the bill? No. You have | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
never supported it? Never supported the bill. When the White Paper came | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
out, the headlines, which are about better clinical involvement, better | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
patient engagment quality, of course you support that, when you | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
read beneath the headlines, no, we didn't support it. We engaged in | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
the consultation process, three months after the bill came out, we | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
had a special representative meeting, asking for the bill to be | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
withdrawn. So to say we have supported the bill, I'm sorry, is a | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
travesty of the truth. You also opposed the setting up of the NHS? | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
No we didn't, that is another long and oft repeated myth. The doctors | :21:16. | :21:23. | |
and the BMA proposed, don't look so surprised. Did he not say, I will | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
get their agreement, by stuffing their mouths with gold? That is | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
about the contractual arrangements within the NHS. Exactly? It wasn't | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
about the NHS itself, doctors didn't want to be state employees | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
and actually not to...You Don't like change, that is your problem? | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
That is not true, I have been a GP for over 30 years, I have seen | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
massive change. It has been evolutionary change not structural. | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
I have seen nine structural organisations that have made the | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
NHS worse in many respects, they have been hugely distracting and | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
costly, and taking the eye off the real things. Do you think those | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
with a vested interest in the National Health Service are really | :22:05. | :22:12. | |
adaptable? I would hope they have the best interests of improving the | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
NHS. I want you to talk about your experience rather than your hopes? | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
In my experience I have found they have been prepared to engage, but | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
they have come to conclusions that are not in the interests of moving | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
the NHS to move forward. What is disappoint beg the BMA is they have | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
-- disappointing about the BMA, is they have been for the bill, but | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
they voted for one of the core parts of the bill, clinical | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
commissioning groups. Dr Alessi you are a GP, you support the bill? | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
am a GP. You are singing from an entire different hymn sheet from | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
the BMA? I am looking it on the basis of consultation with patients. | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
I can think of the way things will change in the future. Things won't | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
happen quick low, change won't happen rapidly. We will -- quickly, | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
change won't happen rapidly. We will come to the bit soon where we | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
will manage the interfaces, and we will have more control over what | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
happens to patients than we have at the moment, that is what all this | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
about. You think it gives you freedom? I think the change has | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
been palpable, the discussions I'm having now with my colleagues in | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
hospital is completely different to what it used to be before. They | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
have been liberated as well. They are able to speak to me, before | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
they just, it just didn't work. doctors' trades unions angry? | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
fact it is happening before the bill has passed, shows you don't | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
need a bill to make that happen. That is the whole point. You can't | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
say it is due to the bill, the bill isn't in law yet, these things are | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
and were happening. The fact that doctors want to do the best for | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
their patients, Assam, who sat on a platform with -- as Sam, who sat on | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
a platform with Andrew Lansley a year ago. He said just because we | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
want to do the best four patients, doesn't mean we support this bill | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
and we don't. You are a GP, you also think there | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
is a lot to be said for the reforms? I do, I think while I have | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
some mixed views about the bill, there are some parts I'm not | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
supportive of actually, there is no doubt in my mind, as a GP involved | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
in commissioning, it has made a huge difference to the influence | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
that I have been able to exert. the changes have already been | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
implemented, why do you need another piece of legislation? | :24:31. | :24:39. | |
have been trying to change things for better for about 15 years. Up | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
until this legislation, which attracted everybody's attention, I | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
haven't been able to get the traction I needed to effect change. | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
You have got the traction, you are making the changes, as Dr Alessi | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
has been saying? Absolutely, it is because of the bill, the scope, | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
scale and sheer audacity, has hit the radar of absolutely everybody, | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
and people have started to behave, I agrie, as if it is in lepblgs -- | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
I agree, as if it is in legislation, but before this happened under the | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
previous administration it was not possible. The clear indication is | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
you didn't need to do much of this? We do, that is a false myth, put | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
around, sadly, mostly by politicians. The reason we have to | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
have the legislation is because they are moving in pathfinder form | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
at the moment. But there is nothing in law to make the clinical | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
commissioning groups accountable, so you need legislation, and also, | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
you have got to abolish the PCTs and the SHAs, you cannot do that | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
without primary legislation. That is why it needs the legislation to | :25:44. | :25:54. | |
:25:54. | :25:57. | ||
actually make it work. Angela Coulter, you speak for a number of | :25:57. | :26:03. | |
organisations, I understand in your judgment can it deliver better | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
patient care? There are 160 organisations representing patients | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
and carers, and they are, on the whole, very unhappy about the bill. | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
They have done a lot of lobbying, and are very pleased that the | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
Government has listened in some cases, and the bill includes more | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
power for patients, more involvement in decisions about | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
their care, and so on. But, it is a real distraction from the major | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
issue, which faces our health system and everybody else's, which | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
is people with long-term conditions who want joined-up care. The | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
problem is, that this bill seems to represent, or certainly the concern | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
of our members is, is it will make care more disjointed, not more | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
joined up. It is not just a distraction, it is a positive | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
impediment? Nobody really knows, because the bill is incredibly | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
complex. There is a real fear. feel similar? It is one of the | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
major concerns, this emphasis on competition, what we should be | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
doing is getting the component parts to work with each other, to | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
collaberate with each other, the Hackneyed, joined up thinking, this | :27:05. | :27:10. | |
bill will stop that happening. is, I'm afraid. Factually incorrect. | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
The whole ethos of the bill is putting patients at the centre of | :27:14. | :27:20. | |
care, and...Built Around the idea of competition? Competition has | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
always been in the NHS and will continue to be. Competition, based | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
on quality, can be a force for good. Let me give you a brief example. | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
Two NHS hospitals within five miles of each other, one of them has a | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
reputation, through surgeries, for hip replacements, they have short | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
waiting times for it. There may be other peripheral things, their MRS | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
A-levels are very low, their mixed sex ward accommodation is very low, | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
and the hospital five miles away, an NHS one, has a poor record, | :27:56. | :28:01. | |
clinically, on hip replacements, longer waiting times, with patients | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
empowered with choice, you will see, probably, many more patients going | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
to the hospital that is performing better, that will be a spur for the | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
less performing one, to ask why. That is open it to patients now, we | :28:13. | :28:20. | |
don't need the bill for that. is a good thing. You can already do | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
this? You can already do that, if you can find the information about | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
the quality of the hospitals you can choose to go to the best. We | :28:26. | :28:36. | |
:28:36. | :28:38. | ||
didn't need a bill for that. have some experience of how | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
competition works, Kresimir Zubak? I find the debate of -- Stephen | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
Bubb? I find the debate of are we for the bill origins frustrating. | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
The majority of people in hospital beds are over 65, long-term | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
conditions, taking 70% of the health budget, and there are | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
charities and social enterprises, who want to do more to provide | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
those services. We want competition to enable that to happen. | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
You, presumably, you are heavily involved in charities that would | :29:10. | :29:14. | |
like to do more? I run a social enterprise. I presume you welcome | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
this, don't you? It is not case of welcome or not welcome. We are | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
where we are, the fact of the matter is the competition issue is | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
largely irrelevant, we have had competition in the NHS for a long | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
time, the question is management of the markets. What worries me is | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
noft-for-profit organisations, social enterprises, aren't in a | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
place where they can compete with some of the highly capitalised | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
private sector organisations. Just giving you an example, if you look | :29:42. | :29:46. | |
at the provision of community health services in Surrey, that | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
contract, which was worth �90 million a year, went to a private | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
sector organisation, when, actually, the best performer, in terms of | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
delivering community healthcare services was a social enterprise. | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
But it simply could not compete. I raised this matter with the Prime | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
Minister. You can't just talk about competition without saying | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
something about how you manage the market. Just one other thing, it is | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
the case that where you have limited resource, and we do have | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
limited resources, unfettered competition can waste those | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
resources. There are lots of issues about the market and how we manage | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
the market. Your experience, Ali Parsa, of letting different kinds | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
of disciplines get to work, is actually rather different, isn't | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
it? Absolutely. Just explain what you do? We are, I guess, now | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
Europe's largest partnership of doctors, nurses, healthcare | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
professionals, who think we should be able to run hospitals, exactly | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
in the same way that GPs can run GP practices, they are a partnership | :30:51. | :30:53. | |
of people who have come together and contracted back to the | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
Government to deliver to them the services the Government want. Why | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
can we not do that in hospitals. Where we were given the opportunity | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
to do it, for instance, in Bath, from scratch, without any | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
Government grant or support, we built a building that won the award | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
for the best building, globally, we brought people who design luxury | :31:18. | :31:24. | |
hotels to design the building, and Michelin-starred chef to cook every | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
day. It can be done. Makes you want to be ill? When you are ill you are | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
welcome. It can be done. Why do you oppose it? You don't need a bill to | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
do that, as demonstrated. That is a fair point? To take the Simon's | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
point, the hospital that is poor needs to be sorted out, patients | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
still have to go there, you need to sort out bad, inequality of service, | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
competition won't help that. Actually this bill is costing �3 | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
billion. No it is not. It is taking a huge amount of people's minds off | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
the care of patients. What do you mean it is costing, the | :32:04. | :32:11. | |
implementation of the bill? implementation. Can we put it right. | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
The cost of it, as the impact assessment shows is up to �1.3 | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
billion, a one-off cost, as a result of that, between now and | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
2015, the savings will be �4.5 billion, to reinvest in the health | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
service. For the rest of the decade �1.5 billion, per an number, all to | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
be reinvested in the -- peran number, all to be reinvested in the | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
health service. You are changing the subject now? This is the risk | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
of this legislation. You asked about money, he told you about | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
money, now you are talking about the risk register? I think if you | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
put clinicians in the driving seat of reorganising healthcare, we | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
understand the product of healthcare in a way professional | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
managers don't always. I'm abs lout low certain that my colleagues, and | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
-- absolutely certain that my colleagues, and a lot of young | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
doctors are coming forward with solutions for improving services | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
for patients. The NHS is not perfect, there are areas where we | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
can do better, and we know where they are. We don't need a lot of | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
data, we speak to patients on daily basis, we understand what needs to | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
be fixed. We are the best placed people, clinicians working in | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
partnership with hospitals and colleagues to do this best. We have | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
to remind ourselves this is the NHS and social care bill, it is not | :33:35. | :33:41. | |
just about clinicians deciding what populations want. What it should be | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
about is commissions and populations deciding how they | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
provide an integrated health and social care system. Hang on, let me | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
finish, which is about commissioning. And so far, just a | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
point I'm making, I'm not saying I disagree with any of you, I'm | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
making the point that we have talked about the NHS as though it | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
is about hospitals and clinical interventions, the NHS and social | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
care bill. We're not going to save �20 billion unless we integrate | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
health and social care. Are all of these a conspiracy against the | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
public, the NHS should be about patients? That is my point, it is | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
the NHS and social care bill. also about citizens. It is the | :34:25. | :34:30. | |
citizens in charge. It is care, well co-ordinates and meets their | :34:30. | :34:36. | |
need. Absolutely. That is the challenge. This shake-up of the NHS | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
is putting organisation against organisation, it is dividing | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
professionals, it is actually not helping. It is going to take about | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
four years before the commissioning groups really learn how to do it. | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
It will take some time to settle in. All major change takes time? A lot | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
of people will be ill and need better co-ordinated care. You look | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
at countries according to the OACD, have the best healthcare quality in | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
the world, France, Germany, Switzerland. And the UK. They are a | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
co-operation between the private sector, public sector, private | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
sector in Germany runs more hospitals, more healthcare | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
provisions than the public sector does T does it in a regulated | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
market, in which people can't "cherrypick", in which people need | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
to focus on the patients. That is what we need to focus on. The | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
British public is not concerned on whether the service is provided by | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
public sector, private sector, the Government, it is concerned about | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
whether it is fair, it is accessible, it is free at the point | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
of delivery. We should focus on making sure that happens, and when | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
that happens, when that happens everything will be fine. By the way, | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
for those who think that the private sector, or the social | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
enterprises just take the cherry, let me say it here and now, please, | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
give us all your potatoes, keep the Cheries, we love to have what you | :35:55. | :36:05. | |
don't want. France and Germany spend 2% more of GDP on healthcare. | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
The British healthcare system is the most cost effective service in | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
the world. But not the best. haven't had much of a shout. Can we | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
have an opportunity perhaps, now we are in this state where we are | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
starting to have a dialogue with our local authorities. This is | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
starting now. Let's give us the oxygen we need to make it happen. | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
We need the space, the time to make this happen. I wonder if you feel, | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
as a practising GP, that, in a sense, this is rather missing a | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
point. We can have the organisational changes, but there | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
is a real crisis in this country about how on earth we carry on | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
paying for healthcare, giving the increasing demand? Unless we change | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
what we are doing, we will get into difficulty. I believe only by laifg | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
the dialogues at this level and in- - having these dialogues and at | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
this level and intensity can we find our way out of where we are at | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
the moment. A lot of this debate is often dominated by a professional | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
view. There is nothing wrong with that, but the citizen view doesn't | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
often get in. To give you an example of this, we want more | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
choice in the NHS. The NHS institution guarantees choice, but | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
doesn't deliver it. If at the end of your life you want to die at | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
home or in a hospice, you are often denied that choice. The majority of | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
people who want to die in a hospice or at home, they die in a hospital | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
bed. There are charities out there, hospices that would love to provide | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
that care, they are not commissioned, and the system needs | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
to be opened up, so that those organisations can be commissioned | :37:44. | :37:48. | |
and provide that choice to people. That's what people want. That will | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
happen under your bill, will it? is already happening. It is already | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
happening. It isn't, because the majority of people at the end of | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
their life are dying in a hospital bed, they wish to die in a hospice | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
or home. Let's support charities that provide that for them. | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
going to have to stop you, I'm afraid, we have to get on to | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
something else. Thank you very much. Now, it's perhaps one of the least | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
surprising bits of corporate news this year, James Murdoch, the man | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
whose father gave him a media empire, is quitting ASBOS of News | :38:22. | :38:29. | |
of the World. He hopes there by to step out -- quitting as boss of the | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
News of the World. He hopes to step out and set up somewhere Aspel a | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
television executive. Whether that will be -- Where as a television | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
executive. Whether that will be enough, we will see. | :38:43. | :38:53. | |
:38:53. | :38:58. | ||
On a week where one Murdoch Sun went, another rose. | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
James Murdoch was nowhere near his father's corporation when the | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
hacking went on at News of the World, why do many believe it was | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
he have table he would step down. Some say he was in charge when he | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
tried to limit the damage. Some say he either tried to cover up how far | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
hacking went, in that case he had to go, or on the other hand, he had | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
no idea what was going on in the company, in which case, he had to | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
go. There has been criminal wrongdoing on a large scale in this | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
company for many years. Now the police investigation is beginning | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
to unearth those networks and Leveson is beginning to show the | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
methods deployed by some of the journalists working for the company. | :39:39. | :39:46. | |
Not all of them. And yes, I think the day of judgment is coming for | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
James and Rupert Murdoch. Until very recently, News International | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
maintained hacking was the work of one rogue journalist, the royal | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
editor of the News of the World, Clive Goodman. But the company had | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
information that the practice was far more widespread. Just this week | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
the Leveson Inquiry into practices, saw an internal e-mail showing 110 | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
victims could have been involved. James Murdoch agreed a huge pay-off | :40:12. | :40:20. | |
to one of the victims, �700,000 to gord dond Taylor, then of the | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
professional Football Association. If he had read the paperwork that | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
accompanied the pay-off, he would have known many more victims were | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
involved. Although he was sent e- mails, he maintains he didn't read | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
them. You embarked on a sustained cover-up, the accusation against | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
you, because you know how widespread it was and you didn't | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
want it to come out? There was a particular settlement I authorised, | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
and I have said was made with information that was incomplete. | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
James Murdoch has been dogged by this question ever since. Did you | :40:51. | :40:57. | |
see, or were you made aware of the "for Neville" e-mail, the | :40:57. | :41:03. | |
transcript of the apt voicemail message? No, I was not aware of | :41:03. | :41:11. | |
that at the time. But Mr Murdoch has been contradicted by two of his | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
former executives. Although he quits as chief of News of the World, | :41:16. | :41:23. | |
he remains CEO of News Corporation based in New York. Many there say | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
he's no longer credible. Does it worry you that his explains in all | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
of this was, sorry, I didn't read my e-mail? That is at best, that is | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
if nothing else, if he is found incompetent to read his e-mails, | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
that doesn't make him fit to be chief executive of any company we | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
are investing in. You can't have people like this. 100 years ago it | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
would be a cluby person on the board, they have to be high- | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
performing individuals. How do we read the departure, is it evidence, | :41:56. | :42:01. | |
as some believe, a victory for News Corporation shareholders, who don't | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
like the messy, low tech, newspaper business, and particularly the | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
reputational damage it is doing to their interests. Or is it evidence | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
that Rupert Murdoch has decided to take personal charge of the | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
operation here in Britain. Just like he did in the old days. | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
It was, afterall, Rupert, not James Murdoch, who launched the Sun on | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
Sunday this week. However, the big news of the week, that you wouldn't | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
necessarily have read about in the Sun, was the revelation at the | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
Leveson Inquiry, that the Sun was running a network of corrupt public | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
officials, including the police, spending tens of thousands of | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
pounds on bribes. There also appears to be a culture at the Sun | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
of illegal payments, and systems have been create today facilitate | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
these payments, while hiding the identity of the officials receiving | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
the money. Some believe this is a game changer, opening News | :42:56. | :43:03. | |
Corporation in America, to poosable, federal investigation under the | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
Foreign and Corrupt Practices Act. Some believe it is all about | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
isolating and limiting this damage. Joining us now from New York, the | :43:11. | :43:18. | |
former editor of the Sunday Times and Times, Sir Harold Evans, whose | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
book about working for Murdoch, is about to be reissued, including the | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
events of last year. Did he jump or was he pushed, James Murdoch? | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
think we shouldn't spent too much time on James Murdoch, actually, he | :43:32. | :43:40. | |
was a very able executive of Sky. I think he's blundered awfully, I'm | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
not absolutely convinced he orchestrated the cover-up. That may | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
have been the work of sloppyness and negligence of him. I'm not sure | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
he did. I think more important, other than the faith of James | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
Murdoch, is the faith of the Murdoch empire given the very | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
serious charges of bribery, not just by one journalist, buying a | :44:02. | :44:09. | |
cop a drink. But by a whole series of systematic payments. I think, | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
myself, don't forget Rupert Murdoch and I parted, not on the best of | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
terms, he pushed me out of the Times, you have to bear in mind I'm | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
some what prejudiced. I'm also prejudiced for decent reporting, | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
honesty, and not invading people's minds. What is running through the | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
whole thing from beginning to end is the rotten smell of corruption. | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
It has been there for years, and only encouraged by slack and | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
corrupt politicians who wanted favours from him. It is really an | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
indictment, not just of James Murdoch, which is actually small | :44:43. | :44:51. | |
fry in many ways, but the whole Murdoch corporation, of the cosines | :44:51. | :44:58. | |
between slack politicians, and Rupert, who knew how to manipulate | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
them. It raises the question of how the owners of these properties here | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
will regard their investment? a terrific investment in terms of | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
cashflow. You have to look at the News Corporation businesses, they | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
are extremely well run, highly profitable, and the question is how | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
big is a shareholder's soul. If he cares about integrity in the news, | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
he will care a lot. On the other hand, if the Murdoch corporation | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
faces a prosecution under the corrupt practices act in the United | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
States, that is very serious trouble. Because it was that the | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
Murdoch corporation would have to lose, if they were indicted and | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
convicted, they would have to lose control of very valuable | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
investments, that depend on Government licenses, cable | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
television and the like. That is the really serious issue here. Also | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
bear in mind the other serious issue is the terrible blow that | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
these activities have done to the reputation of journalism generally. | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
Just leaving that to one side, the question of the reputation of | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
journalism as a whole, the future of the Murdoch empire, Rupert | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
Murdoch, a man who, whatever his failings, believed in newspapers. | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
James Murdoch, a man who doesn't believe so much in newspapers, but | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
clearly blofs in other forms of media. Why -- believes in other | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
forms of media. Why Hong on to newspapers here? It is a good | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
question. A little bit of my heart goes out to him, I'm a romantic | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
newspaper man myself. But the rest of my heart, and most of my head | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
said, I would rather he had nothing to do with newspapers, he does not | :46:37. | :46:41. | |
bring enough to them, apart from money. He doesn't thing integrity | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
to them. In some sense, as I say, I'm personally slightly torn about | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
it. I think it would be a good idea if he devested himself from the | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
newspapers, it would be good for the shareholders, and in the end, | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
for journalism. The smell now is so intense, I don't think it can be | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
eradicated by any more apologies, revelations keep coming out and | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
coming out. The public, I think, is sick to death of it. | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
Thank you very much for joining us. Tomorrow morning's front pages, | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
James Murdoch is on most of them. There he is on the front page of | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
the Guardian. Also he's on the front page of the Independent and | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
the Financial Times. On the front page of the Telegraph | :47:24. | :47:34. | |
:47:34. | :47:46. | ||
is a picture of Davey Jones of the That's all from Newsnight tonight. | :47:46. | :47:52. | |
A man in a chip shop in Worthing gave me a free gherkin today. There | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
will be all manner of pickles and preserves on tomorrow night, | :47:58. | :48:05. | |
preserves on tomorrow night, overseen by Mr Gavin Esler. | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
Good evening, a cooler start to tomorrow than the last few days. | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
Misty and foggy towards the south. Most brightening up through the day. | :48:15. | :48:22. | |
Sunny spells developing in plane areas. Holding on to a lot of cloud | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
across southern areas. To the east of the Pennines, to the Midlands | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
and the south, the morning cloud and mist, it clears, the cloud | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
breaks, sunny spells developing. It will be a mild day under light | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
winds. Temperatures peaking at around 14.15. Sunny spells in the | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
south west and through many parts of Wales. | :48:43. | :48:49. | |
On the west we could see one or two showery bursts of rain. In the | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
south-east of Northern Ireland, holding on to bright, if not | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
sunnier weather. After a wet start across the Highlands in Northern | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
Ireland, brighter and dryer, some of the patchy rain pushing into | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
other parts of Scotland with a drop in temperature. That rain fizzling | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
out. Cloud on Friday, with temperatures dropping a degree or | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
so down. Across England and Wales a lot more cloud for the end of the | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
week. Again, temperatures down a notch. Still above average for the | :49:18. | :49:22. |