Browse content similar to 12/03/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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David Cameron and Barack Obama meet tomorrow in Washington, they | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
promise to stay the course in Afghanistan, but are they now | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
heading for an exit strategy even more quickly than planned. | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
The massacre of children by an American soldier, which has | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
horrified the country, they say they are protecting, won't change | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
the overall strategy. We have already been told. What is not | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
going to happen is the mission would self-resolve as of this, it | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
is a tragic incident, but it would be a far greater tragedy to let it | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
affect what we are doing in the country. What is gained by the | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
troops' presence in this troubled theatre of war. | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
Not since The Sex Pistols has there been a shortage like it, water is | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
once again a precious commodity. With water levels in some of | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
Britain's rivers at record lows, is drought something we will just have | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
to learn to live with. unspeakable atrocity in Syria, is | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
there any chance the world agreeing a plan to tame President Assad? | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
Also tonight. These were the villages, under the | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
fields was clay, under the clay, coal. The Staffordshire pot rees | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
gave birth to one of the first great British brands, does it | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
matter if the Wedgwood collection gets flogged off and dispersed. The | :01:30. | :01:40. | |
:01:40. | :01:41. | ||
Culture Minister, historian and the teapot tycoon, are with us. | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
There will be no change of course in Afghanistan, the White House | :01:45. | :01:51. | |
said today, Downing Street trot the out the same message, Afghan | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
politician, meanwhile, had demanded the American soldiers who cold- | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
bloodedly shot 16 villagers, including nine children, be put on | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
trial there. There are some signs of a change in how US and UK troops | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
may approach combat operations, we will hear about that shortly. First | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
Mark Urban on NATO's increasingly strained future in the country. To | :02:15. | :02:25. | |
:02:25. | :02:27. | ||
the insult of Koran burning has been added the injury of incident, | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
16 people, nine of them children, killed in a rampage by a deranged | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
loner. It complicates the search for daiingfied exit from | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
Afghanistan. The strategy of this week could be expected to further | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
exacerbate the problems and delays, it is the sort of thing that has | :02:45. | :02:51. | |
poisoned the atmosphere so far, in terms of night raids, civilian | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
casualties and so on, it has been problematic. In the aftermath of | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
yesterday's attack, echos of Iraq, with Afghan parliamentarians asking | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
forthright to deal with foreign perpetrators in their own courts. | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
TRANSLATION: The Afghan parliament issued an a resolution today | :03:11. | :03:19. | |
against the reaction of American soldiers inside Afghanistan, and | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
asked that the perpetrator should go to court inside Afghanistan. | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
riots following the burning of the copies of the Koran have claimed | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
dozens of lives, and perhaps produced a more serious crisis than | :03:32. | :03:41. | |
yesterday's murders. As attacks on western places have increased, the | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
Afghan Government has led to the withdrawal of ministries and | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
halting of restoration work. Karzai Government is full of | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
corruption, one of the way of improving the Afghan Government's | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
performance of the presence of the UN community to deter that. Without | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
the ability to get on the ground caused both by the deteriorating | :04:08. | :04:15. | |
security situation, and also a reliance on often unreliable Afghan | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
security guards, it becomes very, very difficult over the remaining | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
year-and-a-half or so of the international presence. | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
There are more big issues lurking, as NATO tries to move into the | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
background. From talking to the Taliban, to relations with Pakistan, | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
and fighting corruption in Kabul's ministries. But despite that, the | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
US and Afghan Governments are trying to negotiate a framework | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
that would allow American troops to stay in the country, beyond the | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
handover of security in 2014. Although President Karzai's people | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
have talked today about spending those talks, no-one is saying that | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
they should be stopped all together. The Karzai Government may not be | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
strong enough to stand without foreign help, which is why they are | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
still seeking long-term military aid. But before NATO can get to the | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
post -withdrawal state, that pull- out itself must happen, without | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
looking like a shambles. The problems with the Afghan | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
Government, the way in which corruption has remained a huge | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
problem. The role of Pakistan's Government not really clamping down | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
on insurgent sabgt trees, all these structural fundamental problems are | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
still there. They cast some doubt on the likely success of the | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
mission. I think we have a better than 50-50 chance of some moderate, | :05:34. | :05:39. | |
acceptable, minimal standard of success, being achieved, or at | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
least defeat being avoided. But every single hit like this has to | :05:43. | :05:50. | |
lower your confidence a little bit. Whatever happens to the speed of | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
withdrawal, and the difficult relationship with President Karzai, | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
NATO's leaders are committed to winding down their combat | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
deployments. Neither side has a practical alternative, and on the | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
eve of a White House meeting, that was David Cameron's message tonight. | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
In terms of my talks about President Obama, we have a good | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
plan, we have a plan which is is about transitioning Afghanistan | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
over to Afghan control. That plan applies in Helmand as much as | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
anywhere else. The most important thing is we stick to that plan and | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
deliver that plan, and then we can bring our troops home, having done | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
a good job in giving Afghanistan at least a chance of stability and the | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
prosperity and growth for the future. | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
The people of Panjwai had already suffered from years of fighting in | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
their district, it was Taliban stronghold, and few would have | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
supported the Americans even before yesterday's killing. But the ripple | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
effects of what happened are now being felt, not least in NATO | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
capitals, where pessimism grows about Afghanistan. | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
Mark Urban is with us in the studio. Will there be a change of strategy? | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
I don't think there is, but they will make it look like there has | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
been a change of strategy, because they feel the need to do something | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
tonight. We see the papers being briefed that the Afghan exit could | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
be speeded up. When you look at the fine print there are some pretty | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
weasel words about stepping back from a lead combat role. Yet we | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
know combat operations could continue, even beyond 2014, under | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the agreement that they are trying to negotiate with President Karzai | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
in the background of all this turbulence at the moment. What this | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
could be about tomorrow is trying to look like a determined response | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
to some of the bad news we have had out of Afghanistan recently. To say | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
we are getting out as fast as we can, and make it look faster. But | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
logistics and other considerations mean they can't wind down much | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
faster. To discuss whether NATO's involvement in Afghanistan is | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
really making us any safer, I'm joined from Boston by Peter | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
Galbraith, a former diplomat, the UN's deputy ambassador to | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
Afghanistan, here in the studio, Lord Hutton, the former Defence | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
Secretary, and chair of the royal united services institute. And | :08:08. | :08:14. | |
Maddox, the editor Prospect Magazine. | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
What are we achieving being there? We have achieved a lot over the | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
past few years. What are we achieving now? We are giving the | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
Afghans the prospect of being confident and capable of looking | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
after their own security. Which, quite frankly, they wouldn't have | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
done if we weren't there. We have denied space to Al-Qaeda and their | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
supporters, that is a significant goal in itself. The priority now | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
has to be to complete the mission in a sense as Mark described it. | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
get out? We are getting out. We are there so we can get out? No, to do | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
the things I said earlier, to support the Afghans, giving them | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
the chance of being capable of looking after security in their own | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
country, which they were not capable of unless we had been | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
physically present. The task now, as the Prime Minister and President | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
have made clear, is to end combat operations over the next two years, | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
and I think over that period of time, lay the foundations for | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
giving the Afghans this concept of being confident in looking after | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
their own security. That is exactly what you have just said, the reason | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
we are there is to get out? I have not described the mission properly | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
then. There is a two-year training and support operation between now | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
and then. They can be replaced then? So the Afghans can look after | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
their own security, that was always the mission. There was never an | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
intention and plan in 2005 and beyond for us to be there forever. | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
The point was to support the new Government in Kabul, and give them | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
the means to defend themselves, so they could actually make sure that | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
Al-Qaeda and their supporters couldn't come back. What do you | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
think would happen if there were to be a change of policy, and the | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
Americans, predominantly the Americans and their allies, were to | :09:54. | :10:00. | |
decide to leave now? First, the United States and its allies would | :10:00. | :10:08. | |
save a lot of money, the United States spent $117 billion in | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
Afghanistan in 2011, and it might be able to devote more resources | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
where Al-Qaeda is a threat. It is not a threat in Afghanistan, but it | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
is a threat in Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and among other places. What | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
would happen in Afghanistan? I don't think the situation in | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
Afghanistan would look any different. The problem in | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
Afghanistan is we have a counter insurgency strategy that is not | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
working, and cannot work, because it depends on having a reliable | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
partner, and the corrupt, ineffective and illegitimate | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
Government of Hamid Karzai is not such a partner. The strategy is | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
simply not working, and there is no prospect of making it work. So we | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
could debate whether Afghanistan is worth it. I don't think it is worth | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
it. Even if it were very important, we don't have a strategy that will | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
work. If we withdraw, the north will be still more or less | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
independent of the Taliban, because the Taliban is an entirely Pashtun | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
movement, I don't think the Taliban will take Kabul, they will continue | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
to control the south and east as they do now. Bronwen Maddox, from | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
where you sit, what has been achieved for the tens of billions | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
of pounds, and the 404 young lives? Not a lot, but a bit. One of those | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
things, as John Hutton was saying, is to get rid of Al-Qaeda more or | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
less from Afghanistan. One is to persuade Pakistan that it needs to | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
try to do something about its wild west, if you like, its wild | :11:40. | :11:45. | |
frontier, but not a lot. anything achieved by staying there? | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
I think still a bit, but not for very much longer. It would be | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
really those two things. Peter Galbraith marvellously describes | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
the Karzai Government, I think he understates the case for how bad it | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
is. I would guess you could say by staying there it gives it a bit | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
more time to try to do a deal with the Taliban and achieve a kind of | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
stability. It certainly gives America a bit more time to put | :12:12. | :12:19. | |
pressure on Pakistan. This is a terrible thing since, John Hutton, | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
there seems widespread consensus on the sort of Government, you may say | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
it is the only Government, but the sort of Government that there is in | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
Afghanistan at the moment now. That is not a great thing to have died | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
for, is it? The Afghan Government has been mired in corruption, they | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
have not been reliable partners for much of the time we have been | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
involved in this campaign. That has restricted the sort of progress we | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
would have liked to have made. It is a complicated operation, there | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
is only one Government in Afghanistan, there is no other | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
Government to work with, we have no choice, no option. There is still a | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
job to be done there, I think. I believe that very, very strongly. I | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
think it is right, what Peter is saying, that the terrorist threat | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
from Al-Qaeda and linked organisations is diverse and more | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
spread. If we were to rewrite history and say we shouldn't have | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
gone to Afghanistan, there has been no gain from that mission, I think | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
we really would be standing history on its head. I think there have | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
been tangible gains t has been an immensely comply it cad campaign to | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
prosecute, I don't dis-- complicated campaign to prosecute. | :13:28. | :13:38. | |
:13:38. | :13:41. | ||
I don't dispute that. I don't know. When was the last Al- | :13:41. | :13:48. | |
Qaeda casualty? I don't know. was over a year ago. You could | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
argue that it has a bit, but a lot of them have been killed in the | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
past six months, that is not an argument for staying indefinitely. | :13:56. | :14:03. | |
The battle against Al-Qaeda is not just Afghanistan, we are pursuing | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
and apprehending Al-Qaeda suspects around the world. We have to ask if | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
we hadn't gone how would the world look? We mustn't Lois sight of the | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
9/11 context, and how the world looked then when we went into | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
Afghanistan. What do you think the Afghan operation has done to the | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
way western powers regard the rest of the world, and the way the rest | :14:25. | :14:35. | |
:14:35. | :14:36. | ||
of the world regards NATO? First, the Afghan war was justified in | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
2001, but the mission was more or less accomplished at the end of | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
2001. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda were out of Afghanistan. We then changed | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
the mission into, and a very ambitious effort to create a | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
centralised Afghan Government, in a country that had never known a | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
centralised Government, that was one of the most diverse countries | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
in the world, both ethically, and geographically. We have been | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
investing half a trillion dollars in that effort, with no success, | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
for the reasons that Lord Hutton himself said. Namely, we don't have | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
a reliable partner, we can wish that the Karzai Government was more | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
reliable, but it isn't. If your strategy depends on a reliable | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
partner, and there isn't one, and there isn't any way to get one, it | :15:24. | :15:30. | |
isn't going to work. What is the largeer lesson? It is when you | :15:30. | :15:35. | |
engage -- larger lesson? It is when you engage in missions as in | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
Afghanistan and Iraq, you are undertaking something that you | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
probably can't accomplish. When you engage in intervention they | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
probably only work when you have a much more limited agenda, which is | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
to support the agendas of your partners on the ground. That's what | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
worked in Libya, Bosnia and Kosovo, to name three quite successful | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
cases. Bronwen Maddox what do you think is the legacy of the | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
operation? I think it makes NATO look like an organisation that | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
chooses the wrong wars to fights, that makes big misjudgments, and | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
now one that is much less likely to go to war at all. What do you think | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
has been the legacy of the Afghan war? It is too early to tell. I | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
think we have had some success on the ground. I think we have made a | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
difference in terms of protecting the UK from the threat of terrorism, | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
but this battle, this war against this kind of terrorism is going to | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
go on, it is not over yet. It won't be over when we come out of | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
Afghanistan either. Thank you all very much. | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
Don't put the kettle on, mother, come to that, don't flush the loo | :16:40. | :16:46. | |
more than you need to. We haven't reached the depth of drought | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
restrictions, but today's announcement of seven hosepipe bans, | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
says that unless the heavens open frequently and for long periods, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
much worse is to come, and the clocks haven't even gone forward | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
yet. The wet weather here used to be a standing joke, but had we | :17:05. | :17:15. | |
:17:15. | :17:23. | ||
Look back 40 years and things have changed a lot on some of Britain's | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
rivers, the ducks here in Berkshire have been wading not swimming for | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
weeks now, and people round here won't have been surprised by | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
today's hosepipe bans and predictions of further drought. | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
you go back 37 years it was very full. It was up to my river bank | :17:40. | :17:49. | |
level. So gradually, through the years, it has sort of got lower and | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
lower. It used to be a fishing place, and plenty of wildlife. | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
Water voles, greebs, we don't have those things now. Even my dog is | :18:02. | :18:11. | |
braving his way into it. Normally water of the River Lambourn runs | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
through here, it is fed chalky deposits and is fed through the | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
winter. After two dry winters levels are exceptionally low, | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
comparable with the famous drought of 1976, when water levels were the | :18:25. | :18:34. | |
lowest for 100 years. The situation has deteriorated nationally. That | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
dry summer has become the measure. Environmentalists said we could see | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
droughts spread to east Yorkshire and Shropshire and Somerset. The | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
whole of the south-east and East Anglia are already in drought. | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Today's report nods to compaints that the practices of water | :18:50. | :19:00. | |
:19:00. | :19:15. | ||
companies have some how made What about the next 40 years? Can | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
science tell us much about what the rivers may look like in the future? | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
Globally we are confident in terms of when it rains it will, when it | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
rains heavily, it will rain even more heavily, and also we are quite | :19:29. | :19:32. | |
confident in the already very dry regions, like the Mediterranean, | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
there will be a decline in the rainfall amount. But as you come to | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
smaller and smaller scales like say for the UK, it becomes very | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
dependant on very subtle shifts in the large scale atmospheric flows, | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
for example the jet strategy and the way it drives weather systems | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
across the country, are very sensitive to the natural oslaigss | :19:55. | :20:02. | |
that are always going on in -- osilations going on. When it comes | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
down to that it is difficult to make a natural projection. Those | :20:06. | :20:11. | |
responsible for adapt to go the changing reserves of water can look | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
to projections, the Government uses climate projections based on carbon | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
emissions and how it will affect the climate, each with confidence | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
levels attached. It is a complicated set of data to get to | :20:23. | :20:28. | |
grips w and a tricky basis on which to make policy. We are getting | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
there, ever more detailed climate models with all the processes of | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
weather and climate, how think interact and effect the hide | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
logical cycle. We are getting near -- hydrological cycle. We are | :20:43. | :20:49. | |
getting near to high resolutions of how it may change. We are not there | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
yet? There are things in the pipeline coming, I'm convinced in | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
the next five years we will be able to start providing the answers, and | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
directly verifiable against the measurements. We can't give a | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
definitive idea, we have to plan for a change in the extreme, some | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
heavier rainfall and years where you experience droughts. Customers | :21:13. | :21:18. | |
at the Swann think there is more than changing rainfall behind the | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
drought? They blame everything from water companies to farmers to cliel | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
mate change and anything else, there is always -- climate change, | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
and anything else. There is always a view in the pub. The ducks may | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
not be the only people modifying their lifestyle, we could see food | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
prices rise as crops are affected. If a dry spring follows a dry | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
winter. With us now are the shadow | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
Environment Secretary, and a representative from Thames Water | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
one of the companies to announce a man today. | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
Do you support the house pipe ban? We think it is important that the | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
Government and water Companies Act to make sure we don't have more | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
stringent restrictions on customers. You do support it? We do. Why are | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
you blaming the Government for it? We think they needing to further | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
and faster in affordability. Affordability is another matter? | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
is linked to how you invest in the water network. Driving down bad | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
deblt and helping people pay -- bad debt and helping people pay bills | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
helps in the investment for water pipes. You would say it is partly | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
the Government's fault we have no water? There as water bill that is | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
delayed, and not looked like it will be in the Queen's Speech, | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
where the Government could take be atruction from rivers and other | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
areas where they could be taking action quicker, we may have to | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
weight for 2014 for that. There were no rainfall variations under | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
Labour? There were, and we took action to drive down leak, they | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
have reduced by 40%, and allow people metre compulsory, 50% of | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
homes will be metered by 2015. were your companies' profits last - | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
- company's profits last year? million after tax. What do you | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
think of a refund on bills every time you introduce a hosepipe ban? | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
If we were failing, yes, we agrow levels of service. We agree in a | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
drought we expect one year in 20 we would need restrictions. Otherwise | :23:26. | :23:32. | |
we would have to invest a whole lot more to deal with a situation that | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
occurs rarely. There is �200 million that could be spent in | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
leaks? The shareholders need a return on the company or they will | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
invest elsewhere. That is why offwatt decides on the fair return | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
for a company doing an efficient job. What are they doing wrong? | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
think it is a question of a national framework. There is a | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
question within water companies for them to transfer water amongst | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
their own regions. Transferring water between regions ought to be | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
better. There is an area where the national Government needs to create | :24:03. | :24:11. | |
a national framework. Is that feasible? We can do more about | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
transferring water between companies, we need to join up the | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
existing bypasss between the companies better rather than a new | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
grid. Why haven't you done it? have done it and we can do more. | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
The need is to move the smallest amount of water the smallest | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
distance so we can cope with wherever the droubt will be. They | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
aren't always in the south-east, last year it was the Lake District. | :24:36. | :24:43. | |
The big one in 1976 was in Yorkshire, the Midlands? It was. | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
Beneath all of this are all sorts of assumptions about what we are | :24:48. | :24:57. | |
entitled to expect from water. With redeprived of anything not watering | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
our gardens? It is about educating people. Lifestyle means we are | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
running the dishwasher and washing machine more often. Do you think | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
people should have the freedom to pour water on the flower beds? I'm | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
asking you, what do you think? People who pay their water bills | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
have a right to expect water out of their taps. Unlimited amounts, to | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
do with what they please? By 2015, 50% of people will be on water | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
metres, when that happens people will reduce their consumption. | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
are in favour of metres, if they decide they are willing to pay the | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
cost per metre of unit water, should they be entitled to do with | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
it what they wish? It is a national resource and somebody pouring it on | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
their garden will deprive someone else in the year. So the answer is | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
they shouldn't? It depends on whether it rains, it is very | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
unpredictable. Precisely, what should they spend it on and what | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
should they not be allowed to spend it on? The Government needs to | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
educate people on how to reduce water. There is things like hippos | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
you can put in your cistern, flushing the loo less, but nobody | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
wants to go into the detailed areas, because it sounds like the nanny | :26:14. | :26:20. | |
state. What do you think, it is all money for you, do you think people | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
should be free to do what they want with water? That is what the law | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
says, we have a statutory duty to supply water to customers, we help | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
them to get free water saving equipment from the website. This is | :26:33. | :26:39. | |
all stuff you put in your loo and it saves water. But the profound | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
question, what people are entitled to expect to do with a fine night | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
supply? At the moment they are entitled to do whatever they want | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
if they are paying for it. We neat more metering so people pay for | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
what they use. And if they choose to chuck it on the garden it is OK? | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
It is education, it is the same as turning the lights off. We need to | :27:01. | :27:08. | |
get at it through schools, through education of customers, and works | :27:08. | :27:18. | |
:27:18. | :27:20. | ||
with customers are to get the overall de --. We are working on | :27:20. | :27:25. | |
procedures to help people not ruin their garden in a hosepipe ban. You | :27:25. | :27:31. | |
can get a sprinkler at the moment that can use all the water for a | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
family in one hour. 47 women and children dead. The | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
latest apparent horror in President Assad's attempt to cow his people, | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
is especially distressing, many of the victims had their throats cut. | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
The President's mouth piece blamed unnamed terrorists for the murders. | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
Those Syrians hoping the rest of the world will put aside | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
differences and come to their Waiting For Sunrise in vain. In the | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
UN, prospects of new resolutions are fading as the United States and | :28:02. | :28:09. | |
Russia continue to disagree about the way forward. | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
We start now in Syria? There are accounts from several opposition | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
activists in Homs, as you say, of the killing of more than 40 people | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
last night, men, women and children, all from the same few families. | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
These pictures, which we can't verify, apparently show the bodies | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
being taken for burial. What we understand according to the | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
accounts, is they were taken by Government forces and then handed | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
over to pro-Government thugs, what this man, who says he escaped the | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
massacre, he says they were held in a room for more than two hours, | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
they were dowsed with petrol, some of them were set on fire. The | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
accounts do differ a bit, particularly in where exactly the | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
killings took place. As you say, of course, the Government is blaming | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
the whole massacre on the opposition, saying they filmed this | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
in order to discredit the Government. Now, is there any | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
diplomatic progress on trying to get an intervention or solution? | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
There was a whole special session of the United Nations Security | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Council, called by Britain, and the Foreign Secretary, William Hague, | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
said the council had failed completely so far in its | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
responsibility to the Syrian people. He's talking about the failure to | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
agree any kind of resolution at all, condemning the violence, because of | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
the opposition of Russia and China. You could see that fod, because the | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
Russian foreign minutes -- today, because the Russian Foreign | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
Minister not only blamed the Government but the opposition for | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
the violence, he talked about Al- Qaeda extremists. Slowly, finally, | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
the west and Russia are beginning to come together, there may be an | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
agreed form of words, the difficulty now is the call to say | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
there should be a stop in shooting. It is symbolic to have a ref Luis, | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
but it won't necessarily change the situation on the ground. What about | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
the talk of arming the rebels? There is something interesting | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
today from the main opposition grouping, from the Syrian National | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
Council. They say the Free Syrian Army is being helped with weapons | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
from outside from other countries, they won't say which countries, we | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
think it is Saudi Arabia and Qatar which proposed this before. The | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
signs are it is happening slowly. The evidence on the ground suggests | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
the only weapons is rifles, and other light weapons, there is no | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
sign of anything heavier being smuggled in. It has become a very | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
familiar part of the story of post- war Britain, unique collections of | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
art amassed at the height of the country's prosperity, sold to make | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
good the consequences of industrial yoisation. There is a museum | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
established by Waterford Wedgwood potry, which a court has ruled can | :30:57. | :31:07. | |
:31:07. | :31:12. | ||
be sold off in -- Wedgwood pottery, which a court ruled can be sold off. | :31:12. | :31:19. | |
To lose a collection of this magnitude is unthinkable. | :31:19. | :31:27. | |
I think it is heart-breaking. There will be lots of other museums | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
and collections that could equally be caught by the same unfortunate | :31:31. | :31:41. | |
:31:41. | :31:49. | ||
This award-winning museum houses the Wedgwood collection, one of | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
Britain's 20 most important cultural assets. But don't take our | :31:53. | :32:03. | |
:32:03. | :32:05. | ||
word for it, that is what UNESCO calls it. | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
Including works by Stubbs and Reynolds, the collection is | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
conservatively valued at �18 million. It is a unique record of | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
what was virtually our first manufacturing industry. Begun three | :32:17. | :32:23. | |
centuries ago by Josiah Wedgwood. This is one of his failures, it | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
must have been heart-breaking when he opened the kiln, to find it had | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
bubbled, blistered, and everything had gone wrong with it. But never | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
mind the odd flawed vase, the whole job lot is 0 set to be broken up | :32:37. | :32:43. | |
and sold off to plug a black hole in Wedgwood's pension fund. | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
museum's specialist it is a nightmare. Inevitably as a curator | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
you look after the possessions for the nation. We believed this | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
collection was safe and in trust, it was a horrible shock to all of | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
us when we heard the judgment. If you broke up that absolutely | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
unbelievable archive and objects, it would never be replaced anywhere | :33:06. | :33:14. | |
in the world. These were the villages, under the | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
folds was clay, and under that coal. How did it come to this? The | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
Wedgwood collection is the product of an industry that once employed | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
thousands. This area of the country became known throughout the world | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
for what it made, the Potteries. is difficult for us to imagine the | :33:34. | :33:41. | |
craze that went into the collecting and purchasing of pottery in the | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
late 1700s. It was almost at epidemic proportions, it was a | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
frenzy, not unlike the launch of an iPhone today. Some of the | :33:53. | :34:01. | |
techniques used at Wedgwood are unchanged since Josiah's time. But | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
the business has endured rockier fortunes, coming close to closure. | :34:06. | :34:11. | |
Workers are worried about what they will have to live on in retirement, | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
the Wedgwood pot badly needs topping up. How will you be fixed | :34:15. | :34:22. | |
in terms of pension and so on? I don't really know, it is going | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
through a bad phase at the moment. But you are signed up to the | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
Wedgwood scheme? Yeah. I just hope the Government takes it on. There | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
are people here quite worried about their pensions, aren't there? | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
are, yes, unfortunately it looked like the museum has taken the brunt | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
of it. What do you make of that? Very sad, that is our history. | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
A court ruled the Wedgwood collection, housed at the museum | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
was an asset of the potteryp can, so it could be sold off to help | :34:57. | :35:06. | |
meet the pensions' shortfall. It is the law of unintended | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
consequences. I think following the very high-profile failures of a | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
number of pension schemes, from Maxwell on wards, you can | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
understand why the Government felled compelled to introduce | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
legislation to protect pensioners. Under what is called "the last man | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
standing" rule, we had a solvent company left standing, and the only | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
way that the pensioners could get the benefit from the Pension | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
Protection Fund, of 90% of their pay, their pensions, was for this | :35:39. | :35:49. | |
:35:49. | :35:52. | ||
company to be put into some form of insolvency. The Wedgwood collection | :35:52. | :35:56. | |
is terrific, and the museum itself is a nice day out. Does any of it | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
amount to much more than a storm in a potteries tea cup? Yes it does, | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
those grappling with the pensions' black hole, say many other | :36:05. | :36:12. | |
companies up and down the country, could tensionly be affected. And | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
minsters are alarmed. I'm sure there will be implications for | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
others. That is why the Attorney General is looking at this so | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
closely. The Wedgwood museum story is a tragedy in itself. But there | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
will be lots of other museums and similar institutions and | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
collections that could equally be caught by the same unfortunate | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
rules. The Attorney General will decide | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
next month whether to approve the sale of the Wedgwood collection. | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
Newsnight understands ministers and arts bodies are urgently seeking | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
funds to save it for the nation. To prevent what many would see as | :36:56. | :37:04. | |
flogging off the family China. With us now in the stud yoi is the | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
historian Tristram Hunt, the Culture Minister, vase vase vase, | :37:07. | :37:17. | |
:37:17. | :37:20. | ||
and the Queen of polka dot pottery, Emma Bridgewater. | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
It is not as if anyone will take a sledgehammer to the pieces, they | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
will be dispersed? It will be right across the world. They could go to | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
Moscow, Dubai, Alabama, and actually what we want is for them | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
to be in Staffordshire. They are part of the history and identity of | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
the potteries of Stoke-on-Trent, of north Staffordshire. To lose these, | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
and this is a museum of international significance, telling | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
the store, not just of the ceramic industry, but through Wedgwood the | :37:49. | :37:53. | |
story of the Industrial Revolution, the French revolution, it is part | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
of the national heritage. How big a deal do you think it is, Emma | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
Bridgewater? I think it is a very big deal, Stoke really needs for | :38:01. | :38:08. | |
that collection to stay nearby. it doesn't? Well some hardy souls | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
make their way to Stoke, we want more visitor numbers. It is clearly | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
a very, very important bit of the offering. There | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
Vase vase vase, how will you save it -- Ed Vaizey, how will you save | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
it? I don't think it is about to be sold off and flogged abroad. We are | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
talking to the Pension Protection Fund, which technically now owns | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
the collection and is an asset of that fund. They don't want to flog | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
it off, we are talking to the administration, he doesn't want to | :38:36. | :38:39. | |
flog it off. We are talking to the company that owns the land where | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
the museum is, they are not going to do something. Nobody will nip | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
down to Sothebys, here is a load of Wedgwood we will sell. We are | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
talking, what we need to do is find out whether the Attorney General | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
will appeal, that is a decision he has to make independently, once we | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
know the position, whether an appeal or the proceedings are | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
concluded. Let's say the collection is still liable for the pension, we | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
need to work oit how much it is worth, agree a price, and -- work | :39:11. | :39:17. | |
out how much it is worth and agree a price and save the collection. | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
I'm absolutely confident the collection will be saved, by | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
combination of public money, lottery money and the public's | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
money, I think they will contribute to save this collection. You won't | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
go any further than that? I don't. Let's talk about why Wedgwood | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
himself and why that particular company is so significant, and what | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
the fate of the company tells us about the state of British | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
manufacturing generally. What was it that was so significant about | :39:46. | :39:56. | |
:39:56. | :39:57. | ||
Wedgwood's operation? I think the analogy with the iPhone was very | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
good. Josiah Wedgwood was the Steve Jobs figure, he combined technical | :40:02. | :40:09. | |
ingenuity, with excellent marketing capacity. He grew this entire | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
market, he developed this middle- class enthusiasm for ceramics, not | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
just in Britain. I know you are a scolar of empire, Jeremy, and you | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
can trace the growth of ceramics and the Bombay houses in Beacon | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
Hill in Boston, Wedgwood sends Staffordshire around the world. He | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
makes the brand made in Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent, a | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
global brand, continued up to today. There is no doubt that the last 20, | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
30 years has been a massive crisis in the ceramics industry, we have | :40:43. | :40:52. | |
lost 80% of jobs since the early 1980. As a fellow professional, | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
what does Wedgwood mean to you? is a huge inspiration, I mean | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
Josiah Wedgwood, the first, this have been some good peoples since, | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
but he's a towering figure, an inspiration in design and business. | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
I use that collection, over the years, I have been to visit it a | :41:10. | :41:20. | |
:41:20. | :41:20. | ||
lot, and drawn specific ideas from T --. What sort of ideas? | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
creamwear he developed in the early 19th century, is beautiful, the | :41:25. | :41:33. | |
frog dinner service for Catherine The Great. He was an incredible man. | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
What lessons do you draw from what became of the Wedgwood enterprise, | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
about British manufacturing and British Industry in general? | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
think British manufacturing ebbs and flows, I think we are doing | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
rather well now in manufacturing, we are also doing rather well in of | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
the cas. Crafts are returning -- crafts, and crafts are returning to | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
this, manufacturing is returning to the country. We have as a nation | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
got used to saying we are losing the heritage, but I think it is | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
coming back in a significant way. You are an example in that, before | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
we get ahead of ourselves, what went wrong? It began with the Clone | :42:14. | :42:22. | |
Air Act, that cloned up the air of Stoke-on-Trent, it hit the ceramics | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
industry very hard. The big companies came and became too big | :42:27. | :42:34. | |
and soaked up the smaller ecosystem. They became arrogant and then we | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
had globalisation. How do you compete against low labour and | :42:37. | :42:45. | |
energy costs in China, Indonesia and a lot of companies in | :42:45. | :42:52. | |
Staffordshire outsourced, those that did, failed. Those that stuck | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
in Stoke-on-Trent, Churchill and others, they succeeded because they | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
invested in plant and kit and they looked to the skills of the | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
potteries. They are the ones putting back on jobs. The ones that | :43:04. | :43:10. | |
went abror, and Wedgwood was part of that, lost out. If you produce | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
in Indonesia, it is not a strong brand, if you produce in Stoke-on- | :43:15. | :43:24. | |
Trent it is an A1 brand. So Spod has just come back to -- Spode has | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
just come back because people are asking for it. I think more and | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
more people are recognising it, particularly in this area. I don't | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
want to in any way tread on your toes or understatement your | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
significance, Emma Bridgewater, it is a much smaller operation than | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
previous operation. We employed 200 people in Stoke, and turn over �14 | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
million. Let's hear it for SMEs, we are likely to create jobs, right | :43:53. | :43:58. | |
now. What is the realisation that someone like you came to that a big | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
organisation, where I started outsourcing all over the world, | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
failed to spot? Manufacturing is very preoccupying, what we have | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
always done, I didn't come from the area or the industry. I suddenly | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
could see the market was looking one way and the industry the other. | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
We have kept our commercial office outside stoke. I think the | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
important thing is that you remain absolutely clear about your | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
customer and what they want. why you are making it? What they | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
want is a properly made product, until recently they weren't | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
interested in made in England, suddenly, in the last two or three | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
years it is gaining. That is about authenticity, people know when you | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
turn over the cup and saucer, if it says made in England, not designed, | :44:45. | :44:50. | |
or just "England", it is made in Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
and it will last. The museum and collection in it is part of the | :44:54. | :44:59. | |
story, it is an inspiration not just for designers but businesses | :44:59. | :45:06. | |
as well. Ed Vaizey you has given an undertaking that the business | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
collective will be preserved. You are opening a big door to all sort | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
of other people saying, you better do the same for us? I will work as | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
hard as I can to keep the collection here, it is unique and | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
part of our heritage, it is a national and internationally | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
significant. I don't think that the door to everyone for saying look at | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
my collection. We have a God history in this country of ensuring | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
that works of exceptional importance are saved for the nation. | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
We have saved the two Titians, part of the national galleries and | :45:40. | :45:50. | |
:45:50. | :45:51. | ||
galleries of Scotland. We used lottery money, and the money saved | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
by galleries. Tomorrow morning's front pages, the | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
Guardian has news there will be a slight tweaking to the way British | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
troops are deployed in Afghanistan. The Guardian says GPs are end sping | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
as little as a day a week for seeing patients because they are | :46:11. | :46:16. | |
setting up the reorganisation. The Times has also news to a slight | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
change to the way troops are used in Afghanistan. | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
An exhibition has opened in Brighton commemorating a death of a | :46:26. | :46:31. |