Browse content similar to 17/04/2012. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The Home Secretary says the man once called the spiritual head of | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
the British mujahideen, is on his way out of the country. Is all | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
today's very public bustling into cars, a distraction, with the | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
European Court of Human Rights, still in the driving seat, yet | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
again. At least the Home Office can say he's now behind bars. But why | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
can't we just put him on a plane to Jordan? | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
The mysterious death of a British businessman in China gets no less | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
perplexing, will we ever learn what happened. And then...You Have the | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
clerk, the question I want to ask, is, who are you? As polls suggest, | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
this man's party is the new third party in British politics, how much | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
of a threat is UKIP to the Conservatives? | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
Doesn't it make you proud to be Scottish. It's shite being Scottish. | :01:07. | :01:14. | |
With we're the lowest of the low, we can't even find a decent culture | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
to be colonised by. Irvine Welsh, ask can the United | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
Kingdom be called off. This programme contains strong | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
language. He has made a monkey out of British | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
Governments for over a decade, finally Abu Qatada, the man who | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
thinks it is a holy duty to murder women and children, is to be | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
shipped out of the country. At least, he might be, if the European | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
Court of Human Rights gives its blessing. Ground hog day is here | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
again. He's in custody tonight, and the Home Secretary claims she's now | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
got assurances which will ensure his removal from Britain. But, it | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
will still take time, and it's still likely to hang on the | :01:54. | :02:04. | |
:02:04. | :02:05. | ||
European Court, which Britain is unwilling to defy. | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
Tonight Abu Qatada is behind bars once more. Described by a judge as | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
Osama Bin Laden's righthand man in Europe it's regarded by | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
Intelligence Services as a significant threat to national | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
security. Over more than a decade, successive | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
Governments have tried to have him deported, but without success. | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
Today, as he was arrested at his house in west London, the Home | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
Secretary was preparing to tell the Commons that she was confident that | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
the next time he was released from prison, it would be to board a | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
plane from Jordan. We have obtained from the Jordanian Government the | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
material we need to comply with the ruling of the European Court. I | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
believe the assurances and the information we have gathered will | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
mean that we can soon put Qatada on the plane, and get him out of our | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
country for good. Abu Qatada's departure has been prevented by the | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
European Court of Human Rights. Its initial concern was that he would | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
be tortured if he faced trial in Jordan. When the Jordanian | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
authorities guaranteed he wouldn't, in January, the court found a new | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
concern, not that he would be tortured, but that evidence | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
obtained by torture would be used in his trial. | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
The court blocked deportation because it said that the court | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
found that torture was widespread in Jordan, as was the use of | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
torture evidence by the Jordanian courts. It marked the absence of | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
any assurance by Jordan that torture evidence would not be used. | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
Thus, it said, deportation to Jordan would give rise to a | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
flagrant denial of justice. The Home Secretary, then, travelled | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
to Jordan to try to secure the assurances that she hoped would | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
satisfy the European Court. Jordan has changed its constitution | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
to ban torture evidence, and given detailed assurances that the Home | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
Secretary says guarantee a fair trial. | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
The Home Secretary, though, has been repeatedly asked why not | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
simply ignore the European Court and deport Abu Qatada any way. | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
reality, we simply could not do this. As ministers we would not | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
just be breaking the law ourselves, but we would be asking Government | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
lawyers, officials, the police, law enforcement officers, and airline | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
companies, to break the law too. This approach has brought some | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
plaudits from unusual quarters. It is not often that you will hear | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
me, the director of Liberty, say this about a Home Secretary, any | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
Home Secretary, but I got have give Miss May some credit today. Because | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
I have waited quite a long time in my career for a Home Secretary to | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
stand up in the House of Commons, on a difficult, unpopular | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
immigration case, and say, the Government must obey the law. | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
Of course she was unhappy with the decision of the court of human | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
rights, that Mr Qatada couldn't be sent to be tried on the bay sifs | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
torture evidence, of course she's - - basis of torture evidence, of | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
course she's frustrated by the time it has taken, but she has said we | :04:56. | :05:02. | |
have to follow the rule of law and process. Whilst the former Home | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
Secretary, who began attempts to deport Abu Qatada, congratulated | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
Mrs May, the woman who wants to be Home Secretary, wasn't nearly so | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
impressed. The Home Office should have acted faster after the | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
European Court judgment in January, and had we not had that early drift | :05:18. | :05:28. | |
and delay, Abu Qatada might not have been released in the first | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
place. And Theresa May needs to watch her own side carefully, there | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
appears to be limited patience on the Conservative benches. It is | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
hard to think of another case which so clearly sums up what is wrong | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
with the logic of the European Court of Human Rights. British | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
courts should have the final say of who stays in our country, not a | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
foreign court in Strasbourg. What we need is that British Bill of | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
Rights, as others have mentioned, declared senior to Strasbourg, and | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
a Supreme Court over the road, that lives up to its name. | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
Government has a brief window of opportunity. At the moment we hold | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
the rotating presidency of the Council of Europe, and, tomorrow, | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
the Government begins its conference in Brighton, trying to | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
get reform. But to do so is a big ask, it needs to get the agreement | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
of all 47 countries in the Council of Europe, and that, as things | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
stand today looks a distant prospect in terms of the | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
fundamental reform the Government is looking for. | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Conservative MPs will certainly be watching negotiations closely. | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
I certainly think that the credibility of human rights, and | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
the UK's position, regarding the convention, are dependant upon us | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
getting a decent result, which sees us fully signed up to the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
convention, but reform of the Strasbourg court, which has led to | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
too much judicial legislation, and frankly too many novel rights, | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
which conflict with our tradition of law and liberty. If Abu Qatada | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
is deported, it will be seen by the Government as a big win. However, | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
there are at least 15 similar cases still pending, the Home Secretary | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
desperately needs the whole system reformed, if she's not to spend all | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
her time shuttling around the hotter parts of the globe, begging | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
assurances from foreign Governments. Let's explore this a little further, | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
with the Conservative MP, Nick Bowles and Diana Johnson, the | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
shadow minister. When is he off then? I don't think any of us know, | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
because there is a court process. Today is a step forward. It might | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
be months and months, maybe not even this year? It could be months. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
The important thing is the law on which they can mount an I peel is | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
narro, the European Court only questioned -- appeal is narrow, the | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
European Court only questioned the use of torture evidence in the | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
trial. They may not be granted appeals at the various stages. | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
you want to congratulate the Home Secretary on doing something you | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
failed to do during nine years in office? I'm certainly very pleased | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
he's in custody this evening. I think the fact that he was given | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
bail was because actually the Government didn't act quickly | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
enough once the European Court. Hang on a minute, you had nine | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
years in Government, during which time he made an absolute monkey of | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
you? There were various appeals going through that period, and now, | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
on reflection. He was also granted bail at one point during the Labour | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
Government. It is a problem that is affected us all. We need the | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
domestic courts and the European Courts, the Government are | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
considering the reforms they want brought forward, we are keen to be | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
part of that discussion. You would like to congratulate the Home | :08:33. | :08:40. | |
Secretary on what she has done? very pleased he's in custody and | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
deportation is back on the agenda. Because you failed? I think that is | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
what the general public want to see happen. Let's get on with it. | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
must be so pleased to have the Head of liberty cheering you on -- | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
Liberty cheering you on? It is nice, she has been the scourge of many | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
Labour home secretaries. And some Conservatives one? It is good to | :09:04. | :09:08. | |
see her congregate late us. It is a good point to make that the Home | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
Secretary and the Government can't ask a whole lot of people to break | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
the law, while we are part of the European convention. It is pretty | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
gutless. I thought he were elected to represent the interests of this | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
country, clearly you have decided not in the interests of the country | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
this man is wandering around, or even in a prison here, you want him | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
out of the country. Why don't you just put him on a plane? What would | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
be gutless, and also witless, would be, firstly, to get ourselves into | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
a position where we are forced to take him back, and forced to pay | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
him compensation, because we have not been through a process that | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
would stand up in court. We are doing both of the right things. We | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
are securing the guarantees from Jordan, that no previous Government | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
ever got, about how they will conduct their legal process, and we | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
are securing changes, we hope, through the Council of Europe, to | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
the way that the European Court operates in the future. That is the | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
right way to deal with it, to stop them doing it again in future, | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
change their method of behaviour, and this won't happen again. We are | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
at the start of this process, this could take many months, if not | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
years to go through the process. are back at more or less square | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
one? I'm worried we are, I'm worried, with the Home Secretary | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
deciding not to go to appeal with the Grand Chamber of the European | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Court of Human Rights, but we could end up back in there in years to | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
come if the appeals process follows all the way through. The Labour | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
Government spent nine years not deporting Abu Qatada, I'm rather | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
hopeful that we will have reported him before there is a Labour Home | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
Secretary in office again. You are just back from Jordan? I went to | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
Jordan. Are you satisfied with the assurances given there that the | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
Jordanians will not introduce torture take -- evidence taken | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
under torture? Of course they have amended their constitution now. | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
are satisfied are you? There are probably steps to be taken. Do you | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
know, are you satisfied? I think overall the Jordanian authorities | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
have given the guarantees we all want to see in this case. You are | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
satisfied with their assurances? think they are in good faith, yes, | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
I'm satisfied with what they have said to the Home Secretary, now we | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
have to see whether the courts take the same view. And if the courts | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
don't take the same view, you think the court was wrong, presume below? | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
Obviously Mr Qatada will have his lawyers advising him. I'm asking | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
you your view? Already his lawyers have said they will be appealing | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
the deportation and want to go through the various stages. I feel | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
having gone to Jordan, having spoken to ministers there, that | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
they are act anything good faith, and hopefully the assurances will | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
stand up. What would you have done if you were in Government for the | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
last two years? Hopefully we would have acted quicker, as soon as the | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
decision was made by the European Court, we would have acted, so Mr | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
Qatada didn't end up getting bail. That was of grave concern that he | :11:48. | :11:58. | |
:11:58. | :11:59. | ||
was out there in the community. I'm pleased he as back on custody. | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
was under more stringent conditions than the Labour Government put him | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
under. That was only introduced because the court was not satisfied | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
that the Government was acting quickly enough in deportation. | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
Jeeves out on bail during the time of the Labour -- He was out on bail | :12:14. | :12:21. | |
during the time of the Labour Government. The orders now you have | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
available are much weaker than control orders. What is frustrate | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
beg it, there are many difficult problems -- frustrating about it, | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
is there are many difficult issues, we are wrestling with it, and the | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
Labour Government did too, it would be nice to say, well done for | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
progress, and let's see what happens? We have said that we want | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
to identify concerns outstanding. The frustration for the ordinary | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
citizen is we listen time after time to members of your party and | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
your leader telling us it was outrageous that Governments of this | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
country were not allowed to decide who should be free to be in this | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
country, and when it comes to it, when the Civil Service and the | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
Civil Service lawyers say, Home Secretary, you might be in defiance | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
of the European Court, you all bend the knee? That is not true, Keneth | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
Clarke the Justice Secretary, tomorrow, is going to Brighton, | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
where all the members, let me finish. 47 states to agree with | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
him? That is how you change things, you don't change things by wave ago | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
wand, I know it works in television, but in Government you have to | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
negotiate with your treaty parties. David Cameron said precisely that? | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
He said we will have to change the way the European Court operates F | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
it doesn't change, if we don't get that agreement, then we have other | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
possiblities we could look at. They are not possiblities anyone would | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
welcome, to withdraw from the Convention on Human rights, we are | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
quite right to try to change the way the court operates, by getting | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
the agreement of member states, all in a conference centre in Brighton | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
for Keneth Clarke for a negotiation. We have been in it for 30 years? | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
They will be there for two days, let's hope they sort it out. | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
think they will sort it out? Lots of people are frustrated by the | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
same things, we are all maddened by it, we need to persuade them all to | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
come to our way of thinking. Let's see if you can do it in a couple of | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
days? Let's see, we are going about it in right way. | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
We want a full investigation, and we want it free of political | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
interference, of the burden of the demand from the Prime Minister to | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
the man in charge of China's propaganda today. It is over five | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
months since the mysterious death of a British businessman in the chi | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
of Chongqing, the delay and private protestations from the Foreign | :14:35. | :14:44. | |
Office, are small parts of what is becoming a tangled tale. | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
The plot is so elaborate it is all but impet traibl, but the death of | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
the British business man is real enough, as is the sudden end of the | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
career of the Chinese politician. And the murder charge now facing | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
the Chinese politician's wife. She's accused of having the | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
Englishman murdered. All the rest, method, motive, indeed whether | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
there really was a murder, remains a matter of conjecture. | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
Neil Heywood was found dead in November, supposedly from drink, he | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
was cremated, months later, Chinese officials suggested he was murdered, | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
for threatening to expose the financial dealings of a | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
politician's wife. The upshot, she as charged with murder, and her | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
husband, one of China's most controversial leaders, xielxielxiel, | :15:29. | :15:39. | |
:15:39. | :15:41. | ||
is ousted, and impli -- Zhang Xiaojun, is ousted and implicated. | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
Either is possible t would appear that Mr Heywood's death was some | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
what suspicious, the two things might not have been originally | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
related to begin with, and they become related as a result of | :15:54. | :16:02. | |
political need by the top leadership to remove Bo Xilai from | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
power. David Cameron met Alexa Chung, who | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
assured him the case was -- Abdullah Ahmed Ali assured him the | :16:11. | :16:19. | |
We have demanded an investigation, and the Chinese authorities have | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
agreed to discuss that, there is a further discussion this afternoon | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
between my rightenable friend and the visiting member from the bureau, | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
Mr Chung, and I will follow up on this extremely carefully and | :16:35. | :16:45. | |
:16:45. | :17:14. | ||
vigorously. In his statement today, Could the Foreign Secretary have | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
done more? He knew back in February that something badly wrong had | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
happened, he called an investigation, he should have | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
announced that there and then. But you have got this philosophical, | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
ideolgical approach, that says don't raise difficult questions | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
with difficult regimes. All that matters is trade and business. That | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
is important, vital for Britain, but we can't give up our broader | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
responsibility, whether it is human rights, or in this case, something | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
very bad that has happened to a British citizen. In Britain, the | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
focus is on the mysterious death of a British subject, but in China | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
it's all about the demise of a political maverick. Bo Xilai was | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
one of the Princelings, promoting rapid growth, while also declaring | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
faith in social equality, he was the coming man. He is somebody | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
willing to use any method possible, he's a man of extraordinary | :18:10. | :18:18. | |
charisma. He wanted to use that charisma to generate public support | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
to further his career. Once he gets to the very, very top, as a member | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
of the standing committee of the politic bureau, what he would do we | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
don't know, now we will never find out. In China, and among comien | :18:31. | :18:39. | |
niece exiles abroad, there is bound -- Chinese exiles abroad there is | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
speculation. Bo's son is at Harvard and is attracting traffic. There is | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
stories about his luxuries and lavish, and luxurious party | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
lifestyle. So there is interest in China, in what is going on? People | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
are very interested, especially that there is so many rumour about | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
it. This is alleging that another senior official is involved in this | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
whole thing, and he's going to be the next person to be investigated. | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
He's under suspicion, this is a big deal, because he is one of the most | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
senior politicians in the poll lit bureau. The main line of inquiry is | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
that Neil Heywood fell out with Bo's wife, a friend and business | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
partner, over money. There a lot of speculation that he was involved in | :19:32. | :19:38. | |
helping the family to deal with over's assets. Is that a common | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
occurrance with anglo-Chinese relations? It is common for a | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
significant number of senior Chinese Government officials to | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
have very expensive, large offices, assets, that are not commensurate | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
with their official income. They certainly require help to | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
manage those overseas investments and properties. | :20:05. | :20:09. | |
Whether it was a row over money laundering, and whether Neil | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
Heywood was really murdered, is unknown. Bo's former police chief | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
appears to have the answers, he's incommune kaid dough in custody. | :20:21. | :20:31. | |
:20:31. | :20:37. | ||
Two men maybe able to share light on this are my guests. Cameron has | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
asked for a full and unpolitical inquiry, will that happen? I don't | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
think it is, there is no body, the body was cremated within days of Mr | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
Heywood dying. The decision has been made at the highest level in | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
Beijing that Bo Xilai will be demoted, and therefore, his wife | :20:55. | :21:01. | |
has been arrested, and it is a massive political issue in China. | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
So, the decision has already been made. | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
The Chinese officially announced a reinvestigation into the case, but | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
it seems they have already pretty much drawn the conclusion. There is, | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
in the meantime, tremendous speculation, we don't know if it | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
was a death from natural causes, or if it was a murder, as some people | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
allege, we just don't know. Are we ever likely to know, do you think? | :21:27. | :21:34. | |
It is very difficult, but the fact that they made the announcement in | :21:35. | :21:41. | |
conjunction with the police chief, who tried to seek asylum from the | :21:41. | :21:49. | |
United States, who, as was said, was so close to Bo Xilai. That | :21:49. | :21:56. | |
could be interpreted as a move, a political move, but many people in | :21:56. | :22:06. | |
China do believe that something suspicious happened, in this case, | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
I think, even though Bo Xilai HIVself wasn't, and hasn't been | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
accused of anything, except as a member of the family. | :22:16. | :22:21. | |
Interesting as we saw in that piece of tape there. The way in which the | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
Chinese websites are dealing with all of this. Presumably there is | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
lots of people tweeting to one another about it too. This is a | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
very, very interesting predicament for the Chinese Government isn't | :22:33. | :22:43. | |
:22:43. | :22:43. | ||
it? Absolute game changer, I would say. On the day that Wang Lijun, | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
Bo's righthandman, drove 300 miles to the British consulate, the web | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
erupted on the microblogs, there are many people on there, Twitter | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
is blocked, but they have their own variance of Twitter. And everyone | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
is talking to everyone else. In the past there was one voice, and | :23:00. | :23:04. | |
everyone listened to it, it was the voice of the Communist Party, and | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
that is changing, the whole dynamic of this. A lot of this information | :23:08. | :23:14. | |
is not untainted, a lot of it is put out there, in a proper gand da | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
offensive, by the -- propaganda offensive, this is a very God way | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
of dealing with political problems -- good way of dealing with | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
political problems and opponents? It is difficult to say which bit is | :23:28. | :23:36. | |
propaganda, and which bit is rumour or the truth. I think we will have | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
to wait until a proper procedure, proper investigation has been | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
carried out, before we draw our own conclusions. We need to look at the | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
evidence. I thought we agreed a proper investigation was extremely | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
unlikely? We will have to go through the process, or the motion, | :23:56. | :24:06. | |
they will only have to wait for any announcement of any new findings. | :24:06. | :24:12. | |
There is a saying in Chinese, there is no war without a crack, that the | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
wind can -- no wall without a crack that the wind can flow through. | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
it a new way of dealing with political opponents? In many ways | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
it is a time honoured way of dealing with political opponents, | :24:25. | :24:30. | |
go after their relatives, use their second in commands in all sorts of | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
ways. The difference is the environment in which it is played | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
out. In the innuendo, the putting out there of stories of one kind of | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
another, spreading not through the official media, this is very | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
interesting? It is interesting, it could come back and bite them. That | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
is why it is so interesting. They are feeding, the Government feeds | :24:50. | :24:59. | |
stuff into the semi-free media, the semi-free microblogs, of course it | :24:59. | :25:07. | |
is sensored, there are thousands of censor, but there are millions on | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
the micro blogs. At the same time there is allegations of corruption, | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
millions of dollars being spirited abroad, coming out, and Chinese | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
people are having to have the lid lifted on the politics. | :25:19. | :25:28. | |
:25:29. | :25:30. | ||
Where do you think it goes next? think when the announcements are | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
made, or anything, people can predict, it will be a justification | :25:36. | :25:44. | |
for the central party commity to -- central party committee to trip Bo | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
Xilai of power. It is an evidence, anecdote or foot note for that. | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
Those who are going to take over the baton in October, or even later, | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
some people are saying probably the progress will have to be post pond, | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
we will see more -- postponed, we will see more things coming out. | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
Thank you very much. We will have more on China tomorrow night when | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
sue Lloyd Roberts will be speaking to the Dalai Lama about the self- | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
immollations in Tibet about the protests of Chinese rule. | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
These leaders are very foolish, narrow-minded authoritarian people, | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
only their mouth, no ears. Never ready to listen to others' views. | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
There is a spring in the step of the leaders of the UK Independence | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
Party, they still have no Members of Parliament, but the latest | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
opinion poll today suggest they have replaced the Liberal Democrats | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
as the third party in British politics. You can tell they are | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
doing well, because Conservative ministers are using expressions | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
like "swivel-eyed" about them, there are dark unsubstantiated | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
rumours about a couple of Tory MPs thinking of defecting to them. | :27:01. | :27:06. | |
Could the people once described as "fruitcakes" by David Cameron, | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
cause serious damage to his party. When the North Sea has a wild day, | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
this town is prone to flooding, it was at its worst when once a | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
European wind storm sent a vicious squall to Thurrock. 50 years on | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
political wind storms come fairly frequently from the continent, the | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
sitting Tory MP won it by 93 votes, but 3,000 votes went to UKIP. Today | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
U kil kip polled third in the opinion polls -- UKIP polled third | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
in the opinion polls, causing concern for the Liberal Democrats | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
but also for the Conservatives. The problem for some is so deep that | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
they could use a majority in the next election. One worrying fact | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
for the Conservatives is that in the 2010 election, when UKIP won 3% | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
of the vote, one third of what they polled today, there were 2 sit sis | :28:00. | :28:05. | |
where their vote was larger than the -- 22 sit sis, where their | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
society -- constituencies, where their vote was larger than others | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
other parties. I don't think that the Conservative | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
Party can take its own supporters for granted. Clearly the polls are | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
showing that there has been some movement from the Conservative | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
Party to UKIP, possibly from Labour to UKIP as well. I think that if a | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
Conservative Party has a robust euro-sceptic policy in the future, | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
hope leefl in the near future, that we will be -- hopefully in the near | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
future, we can attract those gone to UKIP, and hopefully those who | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
have found a home there over the past few years. Nigel Farage, the | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
leader of UKIP, has made it his name to replace the Liberal | :28:51. | :29:00. | |
Democrats as the third party. There is policies on national rail | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
alongside Europe. One political operation working out of the back | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
of a local pub has a different perspective. If you were consulting | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
on this, people would feel more respect for the politicians and | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
think they have listened to what I have to say. The people's pledge | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
are campaigning for a referendum on the relationship with Europe, they | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
think as it stands populations are ignoring popular opinion. UKIP is | :29:23. | :29:28. | |
successfully capitalising on this. The people's pledge, it is a pro- | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
referendum majority at the next election. You need MPs to get the | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
referendum out. We are starting that process, you need Members of | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
Parliament in order to progress there. The threats to Cameron are | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
by UKIP, could be half-a-dozen seats the next general election, | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
but a much bigger threat...What your proof of that? On the ground | :29:51. | :29:58. | |
here, UKIP polled 3,500, we polled 13 though, nearly four-times as | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
much. Any -- 13,000, nearly four- times as much. Any UKIP threat to | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
Cameron is a temporary one. It might cost half-a-dozen seats in | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
the next election. The real threat to Cameron is if the Labour Party | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
comes out in favour of a referendum, he will lose another general | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
election, not in coalition but going into opposition. This | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
experience in Thurrock suggests not all seats with bulky UKIP votes | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
would necessarily go to the Tories, but as likely to any other | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
political party. But the clamour in the Conservatives is strong, and | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
they want the fightback to go-to- start now. Sooner or later the | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
Conservative Party will have to address the European question, most | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
people alive today haven't had a say on the European question. We | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
will have to have that referendum. When that commitment comes forward, | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
I think we will be able to attract back those Conservative members | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
that have gone to UKIP, and those UKIP members not part of the | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
Conservative family for many years. There is real anxiety among | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
Conservative MPs over this issue. They say in the forth coming | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
boundary reviews, if MPs lose their seats, then they may as well defect | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
to UKIP, go down in a ball of flames in the words of one MP we | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
spoke to. Downing Street, however, does not sympathise, they point out | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
two things. Firstly, they say often people who vote UKIP, vote UKIP for | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
incoherent reasons, if they chase those voters, they too would look | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
incoherent, and secondly, they reiterate, the key to them for the | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
majority of 2015, lies in winning over Lib Dem and Labour swing | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
voters, not UKIP. UKIP is not to be dismissed lightly, | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
last year they came second, although distant, to Labour's win | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
in Barnsley's by-election. We have a problem convincing people that we | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
are the most euro-sceptic Government ever. Because Europe is | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
not a particularly important national issue. If you look at | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
recent polling, only 5% of people said our relationship with the EU | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
was the most important thing on their mind. The most important | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
things are jobs, the economy, the health service and immigration. So | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
I think we are having almost too much of a focus on the European | :32:06. | :32:15. | |
issue, and not enough focus on some of the big picture issues. | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
gaining 100 votes the Tories could be denied by UKIP Thurrock at the | :32:20. | :32:24. | |
next election. Their ambitions of replaces the Liberal Democrats as | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
the third party, they need to gain their own seats, not depriving | :32:28. | :32:34. | |
others of their's. Let's discuss this with two people | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
with opposite political journeys, Lord Hesketh served with Margaret | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
Thatcher and John Major. He defected to UKIP in October last | :32:41. | :32:46. | |
year. Frf Westminster we are joined by George Eustice, the Conservative | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
MP, once David Cameron's press secretary. He was previously a UKIP | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
candidate in the 1999 European elections. What does I kip offer | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
you that the Conservatives couldn't? I don't think -- UKIP | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
offer you in with what the Conservatives couldn't? I don't | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
think it is in terms of offer, I first canvased, aged seven, for | :33:12. | :33:20. | |
Harold Macmillan in 1959, I think I was nine to be accurate. I think | :33:20. | :33:30. | |
:33:30. | :33:31. | ||
for me, the defining moment was when the, Mr Cameron reneged on the | :33:31. | :33:39. | |
referendum. It is all very well to call us "swivel-eyed" and | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
"fruitcakes", but I have been Government Chief Whip and Treasury | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
of the Tory Party. It doesn't stop you being a fruitcake? If that is | :33:47. | :33:56. | |
the case, it says a lot of the Tory Party and the future to come. | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
have made the opposite journey, you accept these guys are a real threat | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
to you? UKIP has been around for ten years. I remember when I was a | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
candidate for them in 1999, there was a poll that showed UKIP had 15% | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
of the vote. They had done particularly well in the last three | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
euro elections, I don't doubt they will do quit well in the next one. | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
They are a protest vote. -- quite well in the next one. The real | :34:22. | :34:29. | |
thing for me, is I am someone who wants repatriated powers from | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
Europe, and the immigration process reversed. We can only do that with | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
a Conservative Government, we have a euro-sceptic Conservative Party, | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
and Prime Minister. What people have to stop doing is ending this | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
game of arguing about referendums, that is what you do when you try to | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
stop something happening, and argue to take powers back, that doesn't | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
require a referendum. Lord Hesketh? A simple answer is UKIP is part of | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
a bigger issue, within all of modern politics in the west. If we | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
are in Marseille last weekend, for example, you will have seen the new | :35:04. | :35:12. | |
French left rallies in unprecedented number. You will see | :35:12. | :35:19. | |
Tea Party in the United States. You will see political groupings, which | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
are novel and growing. Growing for a simple reason. In your case, | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
single issue? Not at all. My job in UKIP is to be the defence spokesman, | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
because I think the Government has done an appalling job, basically | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
because they believe what they are told by the Ministry of Defence. | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
That is what my main occupation is at UKIP, when I'm not actually | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
working. The reality is, people are deeply | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
disillusioned by being lied to, by many stream political parties | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
across the spectrum. We didn't have to go to North Africa and see what | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
happened in the Arab bring. It is all part of something bigger. | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
George Eustice, you do accept there is widespread disillusion both with | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
you and the other mainstream parties? There is always | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
disillusion with mainstream political parties. We are in a | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
democracy, I'm somebody who believes small parties should have | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
a right to stand, and stand and make their case. I don't have a | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
problem with that. As somebody who has stood for UKIP and has worked | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
with them, I have no doubt there is well meaning people there who think | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
they are doing the right thing for the country. They are a counter- | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
productive reliability. Lord Hesketh is snorting here? I think | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
it is extremely generous that we are being told that small parties | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
should be allowed to stand. We are only a few yards away from getting | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
back to the kind of extremism that existed in Europe before 1939, it | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
is the most lid cus statement, to be perfectly frank, the reality is | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
the Conservative Party are suffering because, firstly, you do | :36:56. | :37:01. | |
not have a euro-sceptic Prime Minister. You have a Prime Minister | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
who was advised by the Foreign Office, produced the document, that | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
no-one could believe wouldn't be signed, because Sarkozy lost his | :37:08. | :37:13. | |
temper it was signed. He was the first Prime Minister to wield a | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
veto? A veto on what. You have to remember that this Government has | :37:17. | :37:23. | |
brought in the EU Act, which now has a referendum lock. So it is | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
impossible now, we are in the same situation as Ireland now, it would | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
be impossible for a Government to pass further powers to the European | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
Union without there being a referendum. That is the right time | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
to use a referendum, to stop powers going away, not if you want to try | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
to bring powers back. UKIP had a role to play 15 years ago to get | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
this up the agenda. It is a redundant, counter-productive | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
organisation. In terms of whether it damages the Conservative Party. | :37:49. | :37:57. | |
There is no doubt most of its activistsics like Lord Hesketh, are | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
Conservatives. They draw support from across the spectrum, they need | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
to do the serious work of renegotiating our relationship with | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
the European Union. Let me ask you one simple question. If support for | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
UKIP were to cost the Conservatives an overall majority at the next | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
election, would that be a good thing? They would only have | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
themselves to blame. I'm asking whether you think it would be a | :38:20. | :38:30. | |
good thing? It is not my position to make that judgment. Yes it is? | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
You would rather see a Labour and Lib Dem coalition than a | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
Conservative Government? Politics are about the art of the impossible. | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
Then it would be impossible for the Conservatives to form a Government. | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
I'm sorry, there is a large body of opinion in this country, not just | :38:45. | :38:55. | |
:38:55. | :38:55. | ||
confined to the Conservative Party Tont make a mistake about it. | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
asking a question you seemed to decline to answer. The question is | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
what is the realistic outcome, and the outcome of behaving in the way | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
Mr Eustice and his colleagues are behaving, could result in that. | :39:07. | :39:12. | |
They would have only themselves to blame. If you happen to be watching | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
mainstream BBC north of the border, you won't be seeing this, Free | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
Newsnight, or whatever it is called in that part of the country, is | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
evidence of the extent to which Britain, as a whole, is joined | :39:24. | :39:29. | |
together still by an active union, but an active union increasingly | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
frayed around the edges. The year after next, the people of Scotland, | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
but not the people of England l get the opportunity to decide whether | :39:36. | :39:40. | |
they want to end the union all together and become independent. In | :39:40. | :39:45. | |
a moment we will see if one of Scotland's best known writers, | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
Irvine Welsh, can persuade the historian, Tristram Hunt, that the | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
union has had its day. Here is how some of his characters addressed | :39:53. | :39:58. | |
their national identity, in the film of his book, Trainer, with | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
some -- Trainspotting, with some typically strong large Doesn't it | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
make you proud to be Scottish? is shite being Scottish, we are the | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth, the most wretched, | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
servile thrash ever shat into civilisation. Some people hate the | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
English, I don't, they are just wankers, we, on the other hand, are | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
colonised by wankers, we can't even find a decent culture to be conised | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
by. We are ruled by a few arseholes, it is a shite state of affairs to | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
be in, Tommy, and all the fresh air in the world won't make fucking | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
difference. With us now is Irvine Welsh, and | :40:40. | :40:47. | |
with us also Tristram Hunt. Now, are you surprised to find yourself | :40:47. | :40:53. | |
a nationalist? Yeah, I don't really see myself as a nationalist, I see | :40:53. | :40:59. | |
much more of the union being in a secular decline. I see the union as | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
very much conceived to facilitate British imperial expansion and | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
British industrial expansion, sustained by a kind of welfare | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
state, and the two world wars, and all these things no longer exist, | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
they have gone. I don't see what is driving the union, what is holding | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
it together. What is driving the union now? I think that is a very | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
compelling point. What was so interesting about the Trainspotting | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
piece there was to suggest that the Scottish had been colonised, but | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
the Scottish themselves were colonisers as part of the imperial | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
project, when we look back at the creation of Britishness, whether it | :41:33. | :41:40. | |
is Protestantantism, or imperialism, many of those driving influences in | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
the 20th century have frayed. Just because that kind of construction | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
of it is not there, it would be wrong to suggest that the | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
attributes of nationhood have some how all together lost. I personally, | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
very strongly believe, that Scotland, England, Wales, Northern | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
Ireland, gains more from the cohesive whole, than it would do if | :41:59. | :42:05. | |
it split up into ethnic sensablities of nationhood? I don't | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
think that cohesive hole is that sense of Britishness, I don't think | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
it is served by a political union any more, though. I think that's | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
the thing that people will think, people feel in Scotland now, that | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
it's not so much Britishness that they are against, it is the concept | :42:19. | :42:25. | |
of the UK, and the usual union. I think that the two political | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
cultures have become very divergant. He's right there, they have become | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
very different? They have, but I think that is the strength almost | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
of the settlement at the moment, that you can have those elements of | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
devolution, within the architecture of the UK. I think what works at | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
the moment is, contrary to what you think, is the political settlement, | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
I think the cultural settlement has fallen away. That is why Gordon | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
Brown, for all his determination to build British values and a sense of | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
Britishness, was actually going against the cultural currents of | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
feeling of Englishness, and Welshness. Why should people in | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
England not be allowed to express their Englishness for fear of | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
offending Scots or Welsh, and fear of their position, they are put in | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
the union, of oppressing Scots and Welsh. Have you a fear of | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
expressing your Englishness? I have never felt it. I have a lot of | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
constituents who feel their Englishness is not allowed to be | :43:24. | :43:33. | |
expressed on the same level as Scottishness. England is a | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
multicultural post-imperial nation trying to work out its identity. | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
Scotland is a different society developing and a different | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
political culture. I don't see any connection now. I think that | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
certainly the generation, the younger generation from the | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
Trainspotting generations, every one of them seems to be much less | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
vested in the union. Supposing the Scots decide not to go for | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
independence though, that self- loathing that we saw in that clip | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
from Trainspotting, that is going to get really acute, isn't it? | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
think it will. People realise that it is not really an option now. I | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
think if, it is like when David Cameron said to the SNP, which I | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
think was a very Craven thing to say, look we will give you the tax- | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
raising powers, not on my watch, you know. He was almost saying the | :44:25. | :44:31. | |
game is over, and it is all about legacy with politicians. Tony Blair | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
staying in office to become a longer serving Prime Minister than | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
Margaret Thatcher. It is the same with David Cameron, he's conceded | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
the point and saying not on my watch, just buy me ten years of | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
being de facto members of the union. I certainly think he's doing great | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
political damage to the union, but I think we also have to think about | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
the strengths of Britain, on a global stage. Whether it is the | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
army, whether it is the UN, whether it is our diplomacy, all of those | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
elements actually give much greater riches and influence to Britain as | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
a whole. Not in the case, when you look at some of the decisions made | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
in foreign policy, if you look at Afghanistan, so many people were | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
against that war, and I don't think you can pick these kinds of things | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
as being pluses. Do you think post people really care about the world | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
stage? I think people do, I think people like the fact that Britain | :45:25. | :45:31. | |
is a leader on the world stage. We are good at diplomacy, we are an | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
influential power for a small island stuck in the North Sea. We | :45:34. | :45:42. | |
still have that. But, that doesn't alleviate the part of what we think | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
about our post-imperial identity. He's right, we need space for | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
English people to talk about their English identity more actively. I | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
don't think they can do that in the construct of the political union of | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
the UK. I think paradoxically the way to enhance Britishness is to | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
get rid of the political union and enhance the cultural union, even | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
bring Ireland back into the British fold. They may have a view on that, | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
of course. But once you have taken this kind of imperial thing out of | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
Britishness, and it is, and you get back to being this value-free idea | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
of people living in these islands and sharing some kind of cultural | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
heritage, but having the different free individual political | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
expressions, to put their own systems together and work out their | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
own issues. That is the strength of what we can have today, which is | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
multiple identity, whether you can be West Indian-British, Pakistani- | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
British, ethnic-British, you can have a identity there, and a | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
federal British identity, which gives all sorts of broader | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
advantages, I think, to the UK. People have moved on from that in | :46:49. | :46:52. |