01/06/2012 Newsnight

Tonight, U makes its organisations promise a full inversion -- United

Nations organisations promise a full investigation into killings in

Syria. And point the finger at the Al-Assad regime. Has he committed

war crimes. We ask ourselves, why you kill with him. As every day

brings further atrocities, is Britain correct to suggest that

Syria is on the brink of civil war. We speak to the UN Secretary-

General for human rights, along with Paul Wolfowitz, and a friend

of the Syrian Government. The old financial wisdom is if

there is a queue at a bank, join it. It is happening in Spain, where the

money is pouring out, is the EU ready for another major crisis. In

London, the Chinese artist, Ai Weiwei's latest work, under

constant surveillance at home, we have an exclusive interview with

the man regarded as one of the Chinese Government's greatest

critics. I like to come to London to say it. My current condition is

not allowing me to travel. Good evening, the United Nations

top human rights body has condemned the Al-Assad regime in Syria, for

the massacre of more than 100 civilians in Houla last week. 49 of

the victims were children under ten. The UN is suggested Syria is guilty

of war crimes and wants an independent investigation. The real

power at the UN lies with the Security Council, where Russia

seems to be determined to stand but its ally. There are more reports

that Syrian Government forces attacked 12 people on their way

home from work. Three massacres in one week, ten

men killed yesterday, ten corpes discovered on Tuesday, at least --

copss, at least 100 people killed in Houla last Friday, many of them

children. Are these deaths the tipping point for the outside world

to intervene in Syria. The latest grizley video posted on-line by

activists, are they say 11 bodies of plant workers and their driver,

forced off a bus and killed by the regime. They stopped at a

checkpoint. It is a group belonging to the Government, and paid by the

Government. Probably professional killers. That can't be verified.

But the role of the shabiha militia in the previous two atrocities, has

been coroborated by UN observers. It all points, many believe, to an

ever- more deadly sectarian divide. The exact make-up of Syria's

population isn't known. But roughly, 70% are Sunni Muslim Arabs, 12%

Alawites an offshoot of Shiaism, 9- 10% Kurds, and 6% Christian.

Earlier this year Christian leaders told Newsnight they were worried

about where the uprising will lead. It is all law Wights, like these in

Homs, are the group that have gained most from the Al-Assad

family, the all law Wights too, and have the most -- all -- alawites,

and have the most to lose. They don't want to spread light on the

on going conflict. The regime would like to wrap itself in the Syrian

national flag, and doesn't want to expose the sectarian dimension. The

revolutionaries don't want the world to perceive the Syrian

revolution as one between Sunnis versus Alawites. The massacre in

Houla is blamed by locals on killers from neighbouring Alawite

villages. They call them shabiha, ghosts, the term for thug paid by

the regime, most of them are Alawite, it is not clear in Houla

whether they were shabiha or not, they are identified, primarily, by

their religion. We know them by accent, most of them are Alawite.

But these people, you call shabiha, Government thugs, aren't they

simply ordinary villagers, neighbours of your's? Yes, yes, our

neighbours for 100 years, we ask ourselves, why, why, we live

together. We didn't hurt anyone of them, why? Why you stand like that

with this regime? Why you kill with him? I find it very hard to believe

that someone would accept payment to go and kill women and children.

People sometimes get payment to fight, that's normal. But to kill

women and children, that reflects a deep-seated hatred for the rival

community. It reminds us of what happened in Bosnia, and also what

happened in Rwanda. There is a very deep hatred within Syrian society

that has been papered over for a long time. Today, the United

Nations human rights council condemned Syria for the massacre.

Though Syria itself blames anti- Government terrorists. TRANSLATION:

It's now a familiar pattern for armed terrorist gangs to carry out

massacre, immediately before UN Security Council meetings, or a

visit to Damascus by the UN Special Envoy, precisely to lead to special

sessions, hostile to Syria, like this one today.

But the UN has found no effective way of putting pressure on the Al-

Assad regime, despite its warnings of civil war.

Outside observers have been predicting civil war in Syria for

the best part of a year already, it is an unequal struggle still, that

doesn't quite justify that term. The opposition controls no major

stretch of territory, it is vastly outgunned by Government forces, and

its leadership is riven with political division, while the

regime remains remarkably united. The best weapon we have is RB J,

made by Russia. This, this used against tanks, what we have from

the free army, and their weapons, it is just for defending, our

defence, our families. The danger is not even just the

civil war within Syria, but then you have to look at who is arming

their position, where is the money coming from. And is it likely that

a war in Syria will spill over and become a regional conflict.

This week's killings can only fuel a cycle of revenge. But it may

prove not a tipping point, but just part of the slow descent into chaos.

In New York, we have the UN assistant secretary-general for

human rights. In Washington we are joined by the former US Defence

Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, and we have the Syrian businessman in

favour of regime reform, and not change.

Are you absolutely clear that the Syrian Government is, in some cases,

deliberately organising the killing of civilians? I am now not

referring to this latest incident. For this latest incident the

available data pointing out to the responsibility of the pro-regime

forces, it concerns the use of heavy artillery, but also the

alleged activity of the shabiha militia. It has still to be

investigated. On previous cases it was established beyond a doubt that

there were grave widespread violations of human rights, that

may amount to crimes against humanity. That may amount to crimes

against humanity, conducted by the regime? By various people acting on

behalf of the regime, the crimes of humanity always have their

individual perpetrator. Right, but if you believe that there are war

criminals, or potentialal war criminals, realistically, what can

you do, -- potential war criminals, realistically what can you do, with

the International Criminal Court, and Russia not wanting to do, that

they are in a pivitol position in the Security Council. In other

words, nothing will happen? We did, as the office of human rights,

encourage the Security Council to refer the situation in Syria, to

the ICC. If I may remind you, that today's resolution of the human

rights council, recognise collects the invitation of the High

Commisioner to refer the case to the International Criminal Court.

don't think anybody is doubting your good faith in this, but when

do you actually expect anything to happen, given the position of

Russia, which it can use its veto? Russia definitely has a high

leverage in Syria. What is important is that this leverage is

put to the positive impact on the developments. I think that the

votes that were supporting the resolution of the human rights

council resolution today are quite indicative. They were there were 41

votes for the resolution, just three against, and two abstentions.

But -- But those massacres were carried out under what was supposed

to be the Kofi Annan ceasefire. You have to accept that the world, full

of good intention, can't do it? sharing completely that frustration.

The result of such a from us straigs is also the forth coming

initiative on -- -- frustration is also the forthcoming initiative on

Syria. Joining us from Washington is Paul Wolfowitz, what concrete

measures do you think the US do Co Do, if there was a political will

to -- could do, if there was a political will to do it, and if the

Allies would follow? Kofi Annan said a few years back, in the

greatest hour of need the world failed Rwanda, the United Nations

couldn't muster the will to help them. And after the massacre in

Srebrenica, it was said it would forever haunt the United Nations.

We have another charade going on, where the international community

does nothing, while people were slaughtered. The recent massacre

was terrible, but put it in the context of 10,000 personnel killed

since all of this began. It is time to say this regime is serious only

about killing its people, and until the world gets serious about

helping the opposition to organise, the killing won't stop. The key is

to stop the killing. That will happen when Assad's killers decide

the future doesn't lie with him but with a new regime. The world wants

rid of Bashar Al-Assad? That is the problem we are having, the world is

very much preoccupied with the removal of President Al-Assad, it

is not looking at the prosperity of the Syrian people. The prosperity

of the Syrian people would be improved significantly if Mr Assad

was not encouraging them to murder his own people? The United Nations

sometimes gets it wrong, and with this Houla massacre, we have the

names of people killed, we know that the two families targeted and

slain in cold blood, are pro- Government families. One of them is

the extended family of a newly- elected MP of the region. As you

well know it is a pattern of behaviour. Not just this regime,

his father, it is family tradition of the Assads, to murder people who

get in their way Thousands were killed -- In, thousands were killed

in 1982. Why would anyone believe that heavy weapons are being used

against people, women and children? The fact of the two families tells

you it was not the Government. UN has got it wrong, and you are

sitting in London with me and they are in in country? The two families

did not fund the rebels or they were part of the newly elected

person, people didn't like that. you worry with the sectarian make

up of the country, do you worry that any intervention could further

destablise things and lead to sectarian warfare? You have

sectarian warfare now. You have a civil war right now as one of your

speakers said earlier, it is a civil war where only one side is

armed. There are very bad outcomes that come out of all of this, the

longer the bloodshed goes on the worse the bloodshed will be. As

long as the world tolerates it and sits on their hands, it will be

left to extremists from the outside to come in and radicalise the

situation. There is no magic solution, I think it would be a

better outcome if the international community, and there are many

others besides the United States who I think are ready to step in,

notably Turkey and Saudi Arabia. They could come together, not only

to strengthen the opposition, which is essential, but also to get them

to commit to a subsequent regime that would protect minorities,

protect the Christian community, even protect the Alawites. That is

what it should be. As you rightly said, stopping the killing,

undoubtedly, should be the first priority, in order to dough that,

would that take some kind of military activity, safe haven, and

perhaps the use of force. That, presumably is what puts the Obama

administration off contemplating it? Well, you know, the Bush

administration, in 1992, was off contemplating arming the Bosnian,

so that conflict went on for three body years. -- bloody years, it sat

on its hands while Saddam slaughtered the Shia, and we had

him in power for another dozen years. It may seem like the right

course, but you pay a heavy price. I think creating conditions where

the Syrian army can abandon Assad really should be the objective.

Mr Simonovic, do you worry that perhaps the UN people in Syria have

got had wrong, and, in fact, some of these massacres are not being

carried out by people paid for, or supporting the regime, but the

result of other kinds of feuds? got from the Syrian Government

saying they have proof that the Houla massacre has been committed

by the terrorists. But if this is so, why not let the International

Commission of Inquiry, which has been established which the human

rights council in. And establishing fact beyond any doubt. So I think

this is an open invitation to the Government, if they really believe

that the truth should be established. To enable

international organisations qualified to do so to be active in

this way. Mr Simonovic, just want to ask, we are running out of time,

I wondered if you fear listening to Mr Wolfowitz there, that we might

see another verb nies nieceia and Rwanda, people -- Srebrenica, and

people wanting to do things, but not able to do it? What I believe

very strongly, is there must be a clear perspective for Syria, for

various ethnic groups. And that their human rights must be

guaranteeed. There must be power sharing arrangements with the

ethnic and religious representations in such an

arrangement. I think that the problem of Syria at the moment is

that many people feel insecure and this is the reason why we do not

succeed in implementing the ceasefire, and other things

envisaged in the announcement. Thank you all very much.

It was worse than expected, US job figures that sent markets tumbling

today. But America's unemployment level would be the envy of some

eurozone countries. In particular, Spain, a quarter of the population

is now out of work. There is a real sense of apprehension, even fear in

Spain, about what might be happening to the country's banks.

And whether, after all the problems with Greece, the European Union

might be able to offer adequate help, or not. Our Economics Editor

is in Seville tonight. How are things there? Gavin, if Spain is

now the new frontline of the euro crisis, it is places like this,

Seville in the autonomous region of Andrews will you see ya, a poor --

Andulucia, a very poor area, if the region's fortunes means knuckling

down to what the central Government is telling them to do, the old

friend, austerity. The wider issue becomes clear once you stand took

in Spain and look at the numbers. The Spanish Government revealed

yesterday that 100 billion euros had fled the country, in the first

three months of this year. Spain is running a budget deficit at 8.9%,

and rising. One troubled bank, Bankia, is now calculated as

needing a bail out of 29 billion euros, and the rest of the banking

sector, crippled by bad mortgage, needs in secs of 60 billion.

Unemployment is 24%, GDP is set to fall 1.7% this year. The European

Union has a bail out fund of around 200 billion euros to play with,

together with the IMF. Bail out is not a word the Conservative

Government in Spain wants to hear. What do you see as absolutely the

core problem they face? They face two problems. Two crises. There is

the hot crises of the banks, and the old cold crisis of the

shrinking economy. Consumer spending here has fallen

by 10% in a year. Imagine the effect on shops, on the market

stalls, on the cafes behind me on the river front. That is one thing.

You can cope with it. If you have to then on top of that do austerity,

especially in a place like this, the poor region. It becomes hard,

people get sacked, more people get sacked. Now, then you get the banks.

One of the bosses of the Spanish banks said today that the situation

is absolutely citka. Each time they calculate how much it will cost to

bail the banks out it goes up, something has to happen soon.

Germany they think maybe Angela Merkel has spent so much political

Capaldial and lun -- capital and money on Greece, what else can she

do? I think we are a couple of weeks to play with. But this is the

problem, actually, what they tried to do this week, what they have

mooted. They are in danger of getting a bail out sequence right.

First of all, they are trying to do something early, with banking

system that is savable. Maybe it is 100 billion, maybe 150 billion,

that is safeable, because Europe and the IMF have that money. They

are saying, let's pump the money straight into the banks and

stablise them. Remember, these are banks of major economies, you can't

let them go down. However, that's not what the Germans want to do.

That is the problem. It is all, we are back to the two list, things

that work, things that are acceptable to Germany. The problem,

of course, is if you do pump money straight into banks, you can't then

knock on the door of the Prime Minister, Mr Rajoy, and say do a

lot of austerity, do what we demand, do more, which is what happened in

Greece. We are at a place where the Spanish could redefine what a

European bail out means. It is almost led by the country itself.

It is a little bit more humane. But the inability to agree on that is

what is stopping it. Hold your breath, for a bit. We are not going

to get a bail out in the next few days. For the last 12 years

Serpentine Gallery Pavilion has commissioned a summer pavilion.

They chose the team responsible for bay ying's famous Bird, the artist

on that team -- Bird'S Nest stadium. The artist on that team is Ai

Weiwei. He's known for his strong and

outspoken criticism of the Chinese Government, and also his art. His

latest project was Art Under Severe Pressure.

The lower level of the pavilion, cut more than a metre deep into the

earth, is lined with cork. A nod to the archaeology of its 11

predecessors below, it is filled with a shallow water, creating a

mirror for the sky. The artist, Ai Weiwei, was not present for the

unveiling and the creation of the work. Due to problems back home, he

may never see his creation. Because of his criticisms of the Chinese

Government, Ai Weiwei has been under constant surveillance and is

forbidden from leaving Beijing. He was arrested last year on

accusations of tax evasion, and this artist contributed to this

extraordinary project, by using Skype. The pavilion's architecture,

Ai Weiwei says, is not only about space and shape, but the

circumstances we find ourselves in, our mental state. And our political

background. Another Chinese Government critic,

the blind activist, change change change, has fled the country and

taken up an academic post in the United States. He said the Chinese

Government is slowly moving on human rights, largely because of

the internet and Twitter. He said this from the freedom of exile. The

power of social media is something Ai Weiwei deploys in his protests

against the Chinese thords, and they, in turn, seek to limb --

authorities, and they, in turn, seek to limit his activities. I

asked him if there was any chance he could come to London to see his

work? I would like to come to London, to be able to see it. As an

architect we are responsible to what we have been intending to do.

And also we would like to see how other people enjoy our art or

criticise it. But, of course, my current condition is not allowing

me to travel. What's your current condition? What's life like for you

every day? My current condition is that my current condition of myself

is not very clear. It is funny say, it is that I'm still leaving --

living under house arrest. It is kind of probation, but I never

really faced formal arrest or formal accusations. That's my

current condition, which forbids me to travel. My action has been

carefully watched. By the authorities. My phone was tapped.

You know, all my activities are regulated.

Life is not very easy. In terms of your art, how important is Twitter

as a medium for your art. You have a massive following on Twitter?

course all my internet activity is forbidden. But I still manage to

jump on computer, in China you have to get on through -- twitter is not

allowed in China, you have to get on through special technology, so I

can do that. I can focus on other art activities. Do you think the

west is doing enough to encourage these trends in China, or is the

west rather frightened to speak out, because of China's economic power?

Yes, this is a very clear phenomenon of the west. Also the

west should remember to promote and to protect the basic rights, and to

insist on human rights. It was said in New York yesterday that there

was optimisim that things would get better in China, do you share that?

We all share the same hope. Within China it is changing, and there

will be more dramatic changes. I don't think any state can

sacrifice those very essential ways, like freedom of expression, or

freedom of communication, to achieve real social development. We

can see China today, still lacking of creativity, still lacking of

real competition, trying to get its values from very short-sighted acts.

It is not going to be a long lasting result.

As you know, Cenvancheng has left China, are you going to remain?

still Chinese, I still have to solve the problem here, in China.

Despite the difficulties you face every day? Yes, those difficulties

are sometimes severe and unbearable. But still, it gives some meaning to

be here. Because those difficulties are not only to me, but also to a

lot of people here. Thank you very much.

For a word about what's coming up on the review show after Newsnight,

here is Kirsty. With almost as much fanfare as the

Jubilee, Ridley Scott's return to sci-fi after many years with

Prometheus. I will speak to Tracey Emin about her exhibition in

Margate. We will talk about elite Olympic athletes, and tracing the