02/07/2012 Newsnight

As the Government announces an inquiry into the rate-fixes scandal,

questions about how much the Bank of England knew about what happens

happening at Barclays. The shock waves continue, this

programme understands the Treasury Select Committee will examine

claims by a whistle-blower, and e- mails between the Central Bank and

Barclays. We ask the Treasury Minister, and the Labour Party, how

many more inquiries they think they need to get to the bottom of a

major mess. And what's it like to be a

policeman when London burns? We are talking wheelie bins on fire,

bottles set alight, and made into firebombs and thrown at us, I have

never seen anything like t and I pray to God I never see anything

like it again. Tonight we hear from the police in the frontline of the

English riots. My colleague screamed they were being attacked.

What had happened is this machete had appeared through the hole in

the window, and had started hacking at his hand. Could they have done

more to stop the destruction. didn't stand back and watch

Tottenham burn, which most people make out, which hurts a great deal.

We did everything we possibly could, with the resources we had.

We will talk to a rioter, a minister, a Met chief, and the

woman they call the "heroin of Hackney".

Good evening, here is the choice, an investigation of bankers by

politicians, or a wider, longer, public inquiry that could take

forever and be relegate today dausy shelf. Are we getting any closer to

the epicentre of the scandal. Tomorrow a Treasury Select

Committee will look into claims by a whistle-blower that could throw

the Bank of England right in the middle of the scandal. Allegations

of e-mails between Paul Tucker and The 2008 financial crash left the

City reeling, for a while put paid to big bashs and big bonuses.

Of course the party started again. But only for misdemeanors of the

past to catch up with them. On Wednesday evening, behind this

wall, there was to have been a lavish party, senior bankers had

invited politicians and lobbyists to help them celebrate the summer.

Today we found out it was cancelled, instead the banking community has a

much less glamorous affair to look forward. To the Treasury Select

Committee will grill Barclays boss, Bob Diamond. Members of the

Treasury Select Committee tomorrow meet tomorrow to strategyise.

Central to their deliberations will be a phone call between Barclays

chief executive, Bob Diamond, and the deputy governor, Paul Tucker. A

phone call both men are said to regard differently, but led junior

Barclays executive to believe the Bank of England sanctioned their

behaviour. Tonight we have new allegations from a whistle-blower.

Newsnight has seen a letter passed to the Treasury Select Committee,

ahead of Bob Diamond's appearance before them on Wednesday t alleges

not only phone calls between the Tomorrow the committee will discuss

the letter. Sources tell Newsnight much is still up in the air. The

committee chair has yet to decide whether he will call Paul Tucker.

Today, faced by an opposition calling for a full public inquire

year, the Government made its own move. -- inquiry, the Government

made its own move. I want to us establish a full Parliamentary

Committee of inquiry, involving both Houses, chaired by the head of

the Commons Treasury select committee, the iny -- inquiry will

take evidence under oath, and will be able to talk to advisers from

this and the last Government, and it will be given by the Government

all of the resources it needs to do its job properly. Labour continued

to push for more. There have already been select committee

reports into the banking crisis, a number of select committee reports

into the banking crisis. I appreciate the Leveson Inquiry has

been uncomfortable for politicians on all sides. But that is the way

it should be. We will continue to argue for a full and open inquiry,

independent of bankers and independent of politicians.

This evening Labour insists they will vote against the Government's

inquiry, making it very hard for Andrew Tyire to achieve consensus.

More details of the Government's plans came from the Chancellor this

afternoon. Fines imposed on banks will now go to the public purse

rather than back to the banking industry. A LIBOR inquiry will be

led by Martin Wheatley, and there will be a joint parliamentary

inquiry led by the chairman of the Treasury select commity. But he

insisted his inquiry is also about LIBOR, not banking ethics. Stephen

Barclay is a Tory MP who once worked for Barclays and the FSA, he

thinks more is needed than even his own party has announced.

inquire inquiry needs to lead to us the truth, but it needs to change

behaviour. Behaviour is changed by having individual fines. At present

people get a bonus individually, but the fine is imposed on the firm.

What we need to do is fine the individual so, we change the

behaviour F you look the fines individuals have faced so far,

almost always it has been less than a bonus for each year. Ed Miliband

is going hard for a full public inquiry, keen to repeat the success

of calling for an inquiry into the press. The Government don't want to

be caught acting too slow t could end up compounding their biggest

presental problem, that they are too close to people in the City.

Most of the deregulation occurred under Labour, but having said that

the process of deregulation started under Thatcher, and the coalition

haven't done anything to correct the situation. It is hard to find

someone not to blame amongst politicians at the moment.

Thatcherite, big bang, or brownite smaller bang, it is now the race to

be the one to snuff out the lights. On the whistle-blower allegations

the Bank of England said they were not aware of any e-mails, the FSA

has said in the course of their investigation they found no

instruction was given by the Bank of England to instruct Barclays to

manipulate LIBOR. Barclays said they could not go further than the

FSA's findings at this stage. Let as take it on with us, we have the

Treasury Minister and the Shadow Treasury Minister. We have got

three different inquiries, Labour's calling for a public inquiry as

well. Isn't it notorious that when you call for an inquiry, it tells

the public that you basically don't want to make decisions any more?

have been very clear, the two inquiries that George Osborne

announce today, the first is into the process of looking at LIBOR and

criminal sanctions, and is to report at the end of the summer w

the view to putting legislation forward later this year, to go into

the financial services bill, going through parliament at the moment.

The report, the committee we are setting up under Andrew Tyrie's

chairmanship, is to report by the end of the year, there is Banking

Reform Bill going through parliament next year, any

legislative proposals that Andrew makes could be made in that bill.

We know that Barclays broke the rules wrecks know they have been

fined and the FSA is looking into - we know that they have been fined

and the FSA is looking at other banks what are you doing to stop

them behaving badly? We are, in The Libertines inquiry, is looking to

the future, and ensuring there are criminal sanctions in place if

someone tries to manipulate LIBOR again. That was a big hole in what

Balls bulls designed, we have to plug. That where Tyrie is involved,

we need broader issues around transparency and ethic to see if we

can change the culture in banking. You think the public tuning in

tonight will say, that's good, the politicians are in charge of an

inquiry into bankers, that will reassure people? What people want

is action happening. The public inquiry called for the Labour Party

does kick this into the long grass, we need action sooner rather than

waiting two or three years, an expensive inquiry, people want

action. That is what we will deliver. This is just a bidding war,

it is a bidding war for public opinion to see who can go further

and bigger and more extravagant in the inquiries they are calling for?

If there is a difference of opinion, and I think some people, and the

general public, recognise there is a moment of reckoning for the banks.

It is so serious with this particular scandal, manipulating

independent interest rate statistic tixs, that you have to have a

cathartic moment where you have a proper independent. A cathartic

moment where we had with the Chilcot Inquiry, which nobody can

remember is still going on and hasn't reported? To say you

shouldn't have an inquiry because they last for three years, you can

set the terms of reference, and have the non-partisan approach.

What we are seeing is on Friday, when we called for this full

inquiry in the wake of this scandal, the Prime Minister said, oh no, it

is not necessary. Of course, over the weekend they have realised that

the public are absolutely sick to the back teeth with this whole

story, today we have managed to extract, well a partial inquiry, it

is not good enough just to have politicians doing it. When this

story broke, into political party would even condemn Diamond. It is

absolutely right, we didn't hear from any political leader, it took

a whole week? Ed Miliband has been saying this week it is time for

change in the leadership in Barclays. The key thing on the

LIBOR scandal is this, I raised this issue with Mark, during the

financial services bill, when we put amendments about stewardship

and duty of care to customers, all rejected. When I raised The

Libertines issue and said what is the Government's view, do you have

a view, it was a one-word answer, no. Are you worried about the Bank

of England involvement in this, you have heard about the report

tonight? Going back to the point Chris made, when that issue was

raised in committee, I knew what was going on, I knew there was a

review of LIBOR happening. didn't you say that? I knew the BBC

was leading, that the Treasury, the FSA and the Bank of England and

banks were involved in it. I don't think it was my job to pre-empt

that inquiry, and we have to wait until the FSA report. You told

parliament there was no view about it. That is hardly pre-emptive if

you said had you no view. Politicians are accused of shooting

before they ask the question, it is my job to get the regulation right.

That is why we are in the land of inquiries. According to what we

have heard, the Bank of England may be at the epicentre of this, does

that concern you? What's very clear is that the Treasury Select

Committee has called, not just Bob Diamond, but also the regulators,

including the Bank of England, to take part in that inquiry, I think

it is important that the questions are asked. Are you disturbed by

what you have heard this evening? It is absolutely important that the

questions are asked, the Treasury Select Committee inquiry is way of

doing, that let's wait for the answers. Are you concerned that

senior Conservatives like Michael Fallon, the Deputy Chairman of the

panel, who sits on the Treasury Select Committee, who will be

asking the questions s also a non- executive director of Tullet

Prixbon, are you satisfied he's not involved in this? Under this

Government and the previous Government, the Treasury Select

Committee has the ability to challenge things. Are you worried

that Michael Fallon's bank will not be involved in this when he's

sitting on the Treasury Select Committee? A number of banks are

being investigated. The FSA investigation is on going, I'm not

going to provide rauning commentary on who is and who isn't -- a

running commentary on who is and who isn't being investigated.

will a Government majority of politicians leading an inquiry,

will that inspire the public that this is some how independent and

forensic, it is not good enough. This is the difficulty, the

Government haven't grasped how serious this issue is, you think

you can patch up the symptoms and slap people on the wrist. Get ahead

of the game, all parties have always struggled with keeping pace

on the regulation. Isn't this the moment to get ahead of these very

ingenious traders and have a proper full independent inquiry. You know

you will U-turn on it soon any way. Ed Balls designed the system,

nothing would suit the Labour Party more than kicking it into the long

grass, we need to make sure there is a proper inquiry, aks taken, we

are the party reforming financial - - action is taken, we are the party

reforming financial services. biggest psychological challenge of

their careers, the police said, rioters said it was their

opportunity for revenge. Nearly a year on from the riots that stormed

England, we piece together the events of the few, extraordinary,

terrifying days and ask what went wrong. We have been given access to

130 interviews of police officers, many fear future budget cuts in

England and Wales would hinder their ability to cope with anything

of the kind again. Paul Lewis reports, there is strong language

in this film. It was a war, and for the first

time we were in control. They arrest people for no reason, they

stop and check us for no reason. That was the best three days of my

life. Six months ago we interviewed hundreds of rioters. Many of them

described the disorder, like a war against the police. But what was it

like for the officers who were lined up against them? For almost a

year, we have been working with a team of academics at the London

School of Economics, investigating exactly what happened during last

summer's riots, and why. Our researchers have spoken to 130

police officers, of every rank, deployed in London, Birmingham,

Liverpool, Manchester and Salford. These are firsthand accounts, some

of them anonymous, from the frontline of the biggest policing

challenge in decades. As I walked up towards the crowd, I

vividly remember locking eyes with a particular lady within the crowd,

and she started to chant, "murderer, murderer", the crowd started to

follow along and shouted murderer, murderer. Mark Duggan had been shot

dead by police in Tottenham, two days earlier. Chief Inspector Ade

Adelekan had to manage a peaceful protest outside the Police Station.

He was in charge that day. He spoke to Duggan's fiance, friends and

family. They wanted answers from the police in terms of what

happened to Mark Duggan, one of the other concerns is they wanted a

more senior officer to convey those messages to them. I found the

temporary superintendant, and he made his way within the time span,

which was an hour that I was allowed. Unfortunately the family

decided that they had waited long enough, they started to walk away

from us. I must be honest, as they started to walk away, you could

literally see them in the background, that is when the wave

of bottles, street furniture, and everything started to come in. It

was explosive. The Duggan family had no part in

the disorder that was breaking out. Adelekan called for back-up. The

Met admits it should have arrived sooner. For two hours his officers

were outnumbered and underequipped. They came under relentless attack.

We are talking wheelie bin ones fire, bottles that had been gained

from the off-licence, that had been set alight and made into firebombs

and thrown at us. We are talking about a fridge freezer, pulled out

from a shop and rolled towards us. I have never seen anything like it,

and pray to God I never see anything like it again.

As midnight approached, police from surrounding borrowings arrived in

Tottenham. As we got closer, we could make up the silhouettes of

rioters, the noise then started to increase dramatically.

It was almost impossible to hear the radios. It is the most hostile,

aggressive, crowd dynamic that I will ever come across in my entire

experience as a police officer. As inspector Andre Ramsey led his

officers -- Inspector Andre Ramsey led his officers on the first

advance, he was knocked on conscious, this is him, shortly

after the attack. I don't know what hit me, it was clearly something

extremely heavy. Because it actually cracked my protective

helmet. The next thing I remember is being hauled up back on to my

feet, by two officers either side of me. I just shook my head, tried

to regain my vision. I was conscious that we were so stretched

on the ground, I just felt I had to keep going, even though I knew I

had been concussed. My biggest fear was having a police

officer separated, in that happened, I had absolutely no doubt there

could have been loss of life. I assessed that it was a possibility

that we might get shot at. Particularly if we were lured to

far forward, and I also saw what appeared to be machetes, that was

sending out a very clear message to me, that certainly, if anybody got

separated, you know, it could all come to a very grizley end. One of

the strong he is -- Grisly end. Unwft strongest findings in our

research, is police officers feared they would be killed. Senior

officers too were astonished that no police died. Despite these fears,

in Tottenham, as elsewhere, police kept charging forward. We were

coming under the heaviest bombardment of the whole night.

Supermarket trolleys were being used by the rioters, to stock up

with bricks from a nearby building site. We got parallel with the

Prince of Wales public house, I remember bottles exploding on a

lampost near me and being showered with glass. We just did not have

the vorss at that point in time to arrest -- resources at that point

in time to arrest people. Our job was to protect our colleagues from

the other emergency services so they could save life. It may have

look today television camera that is police were standing back when

they should have been making arrests. But officers we

interviewed said their tactics were misunderstood. In fact, outnumbers,

they said they were concentrating on what mattered most. We didn't

stand back and watch Tottenham burn, as most people say, which hurts a

great deal. We did everything we possibly could with the resources

we had, to try to protect life as well as property. But at some point

I had to make the difficult decision, it was life, it was

always going to be life above property.

Over the next 72 hours, as riots and looting spread across England,

police faced a level of violence many said they had never seen

before. My colleague screamed, I'm being attacked, and what had

happened is this machete had just appeared through this hole in the

window and had just started hacking at his hand. In Birmingham gangs

fired at police, even taking aim at the force helicopter. In Liverpool,

rioters fought vicious, hand-to- hand battles with police. It wasn't

looting, if they wanted to loot they have a two-minute walk to the

city centre, all the shops were there. It is simply a case is we

want a scrap, the police are here, let as target the police and have a

scrap with the police, let's get them. They ran us ragged. And while

officers in Manchester focused on trying to stop looters in the city

centre, in Salford they were overwhelmed and chased out. But it

was in London where police were most underresourced. So desperate

had they become, that some of the forces' least -- force's least

experienced officers found themselves on the frontline. When

it all kicked off, that was one of my first-ever shifts. As disorder

broke out in Hackney, Michael Lewis was on his first day in uniform as

a Special Constable, a volunteer role. I heard a colleague shout to

me, get your baton out, I never had to use it before, this thing I had

in training, even the small thing that could be quite default for an

experienced officer, was very alien to me.

Locking bankers. There was pockets of people, that were being very

violent, once officers were there, we were the target.

They had control at that point, and I think a lot of them knew that. It

was venomous. That is what really got me, they don't know me, but

when you are in that uniform, that's what it is directed at.

We spoke to a number of police, who, like Lewis, found themselves on the

frontline with no riot training, protective uniform, or shield.

There was petrol bombs being thrown, there was a lorry that had tried to

drive through the crowds but had got stopped and smashed up, that

was carrying a load of wood. So that was just like a truck load of

ammunition. I can remember seeing our car being trashed.

I remember the radio, they said that they were watching a gang of

them and they had broken into a hardware store. They were getting

Stanley knives and things like that, and taping Stanley knives to wood

to throw. It just makes you think, it is so prime evil, it sounds a

bit weird, it was like the making spheres to throw at us.

All I remember is seeing a brick come over the barricades, before I

had even a chance to think this brick had split in two, bounced up

and whacked me straight in the eye. Lewis was seen by a medic and told

to go to hospital. He refused. knew that we were outnumbered, and

there was not enough police officers there, and I'm thinking, I

remember in my head thinking, all I have is a black eye and a bit of

blood, I can still do this job. I don't needing to.

He and a colleague were then posted outside a JD Sports that had been

looted. There was people coming up taking photos, because I'm there

and there is comments coming from the crowd, you have got injured and

look at that, what happened to you. I remember they were taking photos,

and inviting them to come over and have a picture with us. I'm there,

arms round them, smiling, with a black eye. Having a photo that will

probably go on their Facebook and be ridiculed for it, at that time

that tactic was working for me. It softened this crowd that could have

potentially got quite aggressive again. To be stood there again,

knowing what the potential is, that was what was really, really

frightening. Just knowing that you are stood there, and you could

potentially be severely injured or even worse, the unthinkable. You

don't know what's going to happen, there's a gang of people there,

there's more of them than there are of you. That's, that was petrifying,

I hope I never have to feel that again.

Disorder was spreading to almost every corner of London. The fires,

looting and violent attacks on police were being watched on CCTV

screens in a control room in Lambeth.

It was off the scale. You know, in 28 years of policing, and 25 years

of that involved with public order, I have never experienced it, I

don't think the country has. Chief Superintendent Adrian Roberts was

the Met's silver commander, the man in charge of tactics. He also ran

the Met's review into its handling of the riots. The fact is we ran

out of people. It almost became a lottery as to what time the

disorder started in what particular borrowings too whether they would

get the resources they would need to put it right. It was just soul

destroying. Roberts was forced to watch intense fires sweep across

Croydon. The firefighters needed police escorts. He told them, he

had run out. I was brought up there, and married there. It is my town.

Seeing my own borrowing then suffering in the way that it did,

again, was quite hard to take. why had the Met run out of

officers? Help was available, there is an emergency system to mobilise

riot-trained officers from regional forces, a kind of SO SFOR police in

times of crisis. -- SOS for police in times of crisis. Other forces

used the system well, but the Met did not operate the call for help

until Monday, the third and final day of rioting. If they put the

resources in on the Sunday, it certainly wouldn't have spread over

the rest of the country as it did. I don't think we did enough, or the

Met did enough, I think the national mobileisation should have

been put in place on the Sunday a lot quicker than it was. By the

Monday afternoon, only 500 extra police from around the country had

arrived in London. Some of them immediately encountered problems.

We were sat in this car park there must have been 200, 300 police

officers, we were constantly badgering our command Tories see

what was going on. The Metropolitan Police -- commanders to see what

was going on. The metropolitan police officers were accessing the

radio constantly to see what was going on, the message was they

couldn't access the radio channels operated in Hackney and Croydon.

For that very reason we were not deployed there. That was the most

frustrating thing that I will take from that night. Obviously we're

all sat in the van, we are taking phone calls from our loved ones, we

are watching it all live on television, Croydon's on fire, the

police are under attack in Hackney, and we're sat in a car park, for

the simple reason that we can't get on to the radio channel they are

operating on. In this day and age I think that is laughable. It just

meant that massive amount of resources had been mustered into

the capital that day were bakesically useless and being sent

to mean -- basically useless, and were being sent to meanal stuff

when other areas were desperately in need of help. We didn't get to

any places of disorder in time, it was shut the gates after the horse

as bolted type of policing, go, go, go, but we never got anywhere.

There was no direction, we never met the commanding officer, and we

were in the dark. Those 200 officers would have been clearly

better than what was already deployed there. We may have quelled

it, it may not have got to the point where control was lost

completely. There were complaints from several different forces, one

officer told us nine vans of police from Thames Valley and Hampshire,

were turned back from the Reeves furniture store in Croydon, he was

told because a Met Officer wanted a Met police force, so Croydon burned.

A lot of people are saying that the officers weren't deployed to where

they were needed because of the radio channel? I'm not aware of

that. The work done in the long- term about the radios is being done

elsewhere. On the night we weren't aware of it. The feedback we had

was the airwave, the national system we used worked very well, it

was the one thing that did work very well for us. It is true, that

as a force, we have not had an awful lot of experience of bringing

in such large numbers from outside forces, normally it is the other

way round. There is lessons we can and have learned from that whole

mutual aid deployment bit. I can assure if you I had known cops were

sitting in car park, they would have been deployed pretty quickly.

To be clear, what they are saying is they weren't able to access the

Met channel, and as a result they couldn't be deployed on the

frontline? I don't know the answer to that particular question around

the radio channels, it certainly isn't something that has been fed

back to me through the review. All the mutual aid officers were

interviewed. By the Tuesday, most of the officers from outside London

had arrived. They helped bolster a huge show of force, 16,000 police

were deployed on the capital's streets. When you had the 16,000

officers in place on the Tuesday, there was no rioting in London so I

guess the question is, would it have been possible to have those

16,000 officers deployed on the Monday? It may have been, it is

hard to say it may have been the deterrent that there were 16 though

cops so people didn't come out to cause cim -- 16,000 cops to people

didn't come out to cause the criminality that they Z we didn't

have the large gatherings that we did the previous night. It wasn't

that it was there and we were able to deal with it, it didn't actually

transgress in front of us. Could we have got the 16,000 out before. If

we had the Monday night happen the day before, maybe we would have

done. But, there was nothing to suggest that we needed that many

officers on that particular night, leading into it.

But the intelligence forecasting the scale of riots did exist, much

of it was on social media. Police told us that sorting fact from

fiction on Facebook and Twitter was one of their biggest challenges.

struggled in August, because we didn't have enough trained people,

we didn't have the right IT to be able to search the social media.

Never before have we had to. Although there is lots of things we

have done differently have changed and are doing differently, as a

result of what we have learned from the experiences in August, that is

the one we really need to really get a grip of. If police struggled

during the riots, because they did not have enough officers on the

ground, how do they feel about the future? I don't think we did bad by

any stretch of the imagination compared to some. I think the cuts

that are coming in, will only make things worse, you are looking at

less people trained to deal with public order situations. We

probably would struggle to do that again, and cope with that level of

violence n my opinion. They say it is not affecting frontline police

officers, it is. We will be 16,000 police officers less in 12 months

time. So the next time we have disorder on that scale, Theresa May

can whistle as long as she likes, she will not get that number of

staff. I think it will happen again, I have no doubt it will happen

again. We have now spoken to hundreds of rioters and police

involved in last summer's disorder, many describe the experience as sur

role. Some said life had returned to normal, as if the riots had

never happened, but others, cannot forget.

I think about it. I almost think about it every day. You know, I

have said this to my family, it is difficult to live with, really. One

has to question one's self, could I have done anything differently? I

still every day think about could I have done stuff differently, what

could we have done as a service differently. I very much doubt I

have put it to bed, but that's life i suppose.

That report was by Paul Lewis, here in the studio now, one of the

rioters, Aston Walker, given a jail sentence for theft. The Assistant

Commissioner of the Met, and the policing minister, and the MP for

Tottenham, and Pauline Pierce, known as the "her win for Hackney

after the riots. Do you ask yourself the same

question at the end of the report, what could have been done

differently? Of course, any organisation that's faced something

it has never seen before, would be foolish to say it couldn't do

things differently and learn things. I think the thing that comes out

most from the report, that should be emphasised, the bravery of the

officers involved. People prepared to work all hours, put themselves

at risk to protect the public and their colleagues. The agonising of

the officers in command, trying to use limited ri sources to best

affect, to pro-- limited resources to best effect to preserve life. In

the aftermath last summer it was not talked about it and it is right

those officers are recognised. In terms of what we do differently,

the speed and the number we mobilised. The deployment? There

was something saying about fewer officers in the future, that is not

true in London. We have trained 1,750 more officers in public order

skills. You didn't deploy enough people in the places you needed

them, that is the point? People made judgment calls at the time, in

hindsight we should have deployed more and more quickly. You talk

about the bravery, we also heard the frustration of those guys who

were sitting, fully trained, riot officers, sitting in a police, in

car park, and they said, Croydon's on fire, we're stuck in a car park.

It's unfortunate they said that anonymously, the reviews we did,

didn't pick thank you very much. We picked up some issues of the radio,

we have never called in the Metaphor Mutual Aid on such a grand

scale before, we did it this time and we have learned more about how

to make it work. Your report didn't bring up the fact that they were on

a completely different radio controlled wave, which meant they

couldn't hear the rest of the Met. We spoke to many of the officers on

Mutual Aid, and that didn't come back to us. There were officers

come back from neighbouring forces on the Sunday morning on the second

day. That the Met didn't use because they weren't part of the

Met? They were used. They were coming in from the day after on the

Sunday morning. The report implies that Mutual Aid was not sought

until Monday. Not the national mobilisation until Monday?

started sensibly with neighbouring forces in the immediate Saturday

night as it developed, going to Sunday morning, we went to

neighbouring forces and on Monday morning it was nationwide. If you

had called it on Monday you could have avoited a while day of -- oh

aye what's that then voided a whole day of rioting? It is easy to say

that. People made calls at the time, starting to escalate the resources

during two or three days. You had those warnings, you heard in the

report, people could see the scale that was going to emerge, it was

too late? You say that now, in hindsight, that wasn't how it

looked at the time. I come back to, officers at the time made the best

decisions they could do. Any organisation will look back and say

we could do things differently, we have more officers trained, our

mobilisation plans mean we can go quickly, we have better systems to

look at social media. You arrived on the scenes of the riots, co-s

incidently, can you sympathise with -- coincidently, can you sympathise

with what you are hearing here? sadly for me what I saw firsthand,

there was no effort being made. At one point there was 400, 500

rioters here, there was me and about 60 police behind me. And I

was giving it what for, and that was not the clip that was, that

became famous to people. This was a young man who was being attacked

because he took a picture. They charged after him, and they were

going for him. You know, I was the one, and a couple of other young

lads came along and helped me, and some friends of mine, who helped me

to get the crowd back and leave the man alone. And then I gave them

what for. But the police, they literally, I mean people say it

wasn't what it looked like, but it was. They did nothing.

Cars were on fireworks there was no ambulances, there was no fire

brigades -- on fire, there was no ambulances, there was no fire

brigades, at one point I was pushed into a burning car, my behind was

stuck in a car, real Tom and Jerry legs and arms hanging out. If it

wasn't for my friends pulling me out, there was no help from the

police. You saw that young white guy who had never been in uniform,

he was right at the front, he was hit in the eye? For me, personally,

I do sympathise to a degree, because it is a hard job that they

have. The police do need to be, have a pat on the back for the hard

work that they Diamonds Will Do, correctly. But, having said that,

it is a job that you chose, you knew the dangers involved, every

policeman knows every day they go out there there is a challenge,

there is a gun in your face, a knife in your face. You just don't

know. So you have taken on a job to protect people. Your response to

that? I think she's right in terms of what officers face on daily

basis, certainly. I recognise that people are frustrated, communities

saw shops looted and the police didn't have enough resource ones

the ground to deal with it. I come back to the -- resources on the

ground to deal with it. I come back to the film, the officers did all

they comfortable we have trained more and more ready for this summer.

You were one of the rioters, you described previously the Met as the

face of white privilege, your words, having seen that film does it make

you think twice about what you did? I actually looted at 5.00am, I

wasn't part of the mob rioting. It would be slightly disingenious of

me to talk about being part of. That obviously clearly they are

doing a very dangerous job, the police, on the frontline. If you

had seen more people you wouldn't have done what you had done? Well,

possibly, I went out there with the intention to film what had happened

You weren't politically motivated? Not at all. No. Even though,

obviously a month prior to that I had been on a march for Kingsley

Burell killed in police custody. I do a lot of works, I'm ware of the

issues of black youth being killed in police custody. You heard in

that film, officers, saying they fear the whole thing could happen

again, and with imminent cuts, they wouldn't be able to protect the

public, or themselves? I disagree about that. There will still be a

very large number of police officers available. There are the

same number of police officers who are actually trained to deal with

riot situations. In fact, as the Assistant Commissioner said, the

number has been increased in London. We know that the reductions in

police work force, that the inspectorate has talked about today,

the inspectorate had been made mainly, not exclusively, mainly in

the back room positions, there has been a reduction. But the inspector

also said the frontline had been protected but not preserved. It is

not protected, there will be a reduction in 6%, we will see nearly

6,000 fewer officers on the frontline by 2015? Just to remind

people that is 130,000 officers in total. They are already struggling

at the moment, you are going to cut that number? I think you are

drawing the wrong conclusion. The conclusion surely is. Not my

conclusion, you heard from serving officers part of the riots last

summer, these are their concerns? When it reported on this towards

the end of last year, the point was made, it was about deployment and

the speed of deployment. It is not about the total number. It was his

fault? It was the Met's fault? -- It was the Met's fault? We will

still have far more police officers that we had in the 1980 and the

1990. I think there is a collective agreement, and the Assistant

Commissioner and the inspectorate said, and other Chief Constables

said, that there are lessons to be learned about the speed of

deployment. I don't think can you draw the conclusion that because

there is what is a -- you can draw the conclusion that because there

is what is a relative reduction in the frontline numbers, 6%, but 94%

are remaining, that what that means is there won't be adequate

resources to deal with these situations, there will still be

substantial resources to deal with these issues. We have eye-watering

cuts to deal with, more to do we are determined to do everything we

can to protect the public. We will try to maintain increased public

order officers in the frontline, it will be challenge but we will do it

because the public deserve it. you think numbers matter? It took

16,000 officers to bring order back to London and we are losing 16,000

officers across the Met. I think it is patently obvious numbers make a

difference. Right across the country people said where are the

police. If you were standing in the Carpet Right building, half a mile

from the Police Station where the riot started in Tottenham. Watching

flames and youths progressing down Tottenham High Road, with your

children around you, in your night dress, those people want to know

where the police were. They watched their homes burn down, and they let

themselves out. No fire brigade. They let themselves out of the

building. It is complacent to suggest with safer neighbourhood

teams cuts w transport police cut, with 999 units cut now in the Met,

that there is not a problem with police numbers. It is a serious

issue, I'm afraid everybody knows that the issues behind these riots

have not been dealt with, so we will see further unrest, and not

the numbers to deal with it. That is not what is happening in

London. We don't know what is happening with the Met? I can tell

you where we are. We are not cutting neighbourhood schemes or

response teams. Why did it take to five days to bring that order.

is the point, this disorder happened last year, where there

were a near record number of police officers in this country. A bigger

police work force overall than we have ever seen, it had just come

off its peak. So quite clearly it can't be about numbers. It was

about how those numbers were deployed. The reduction that there

has been that you claim of 16,000, most of those, but not all, have

not come from the frontline. Because actually when we came to

power we discovered there was something like 25,000 officers who

were in back room positions. So the police will have ample resources to

deal with this kind of situation. You say ample, it is disengineous

to say there won't be frontline cuts in the Met. Sorry, I just said

that there are going to be reductions in overall numbers, but

the independent inspectorate report. So frontline numbers in the Met?

The inspect -- independent inspectorate report said today that

the frontline policing is protected and preserved. It also said the

response times were being protected. It said public confidence was

rising. Jew haven't answered my question, why did it take four to

five days to do it, why couldn't you do in the first what you did in

the last. Get all these police up to Tottenham and get it nipped in

the bud instantly. It took five days before any that have was done.

You are saying it is deployment? That is what the independent review

said. Pauline it is the nail on the head, you look back in hindsight,

clearly it would have been better to deploy more people more quickly

people at the time made a judgment who would predict there would be

mass copycats, criminal looting across multiple places in London

and across the country. Do you think it could have been contained

in Tottenham if it was taken more seriously at the beginning? In the

first night in Tottenham, whilst there was rioting on the high road,

Wood Green shopping centre ransacked, the Tottenham retail

park, ransacked. We saw that night a pattern that would happen on

subsequent nights, not just in London but across the country. I

think it could have been dealt with, it should have been, from the first

time we saw the cars burning on Tottenham High Road. Thank you very

much for coming in. That's all from Newsnight tonight, I will be back

tomorrow, plenty more then, good night.

I wish I could offer you a ray of I wish I could offer you a ray of

hope. For the rest of the week it is further unsettled spells.

Brighter start to the day across Northern Ireland and Scotland.

Showers developing here, and further south across the country,

more generally cloudy with some wet weather spreading up across

southern England. For Wimbledon, although we got away with it for

late afternoon today, that might be the case tomorrow. Soggy across

parts of the West Country, if you are on holiday across the south

west of England, good luck. You won't see inch the way of sunshine.

Misty around the coasts and hills. For Wales wet weather at times,

particularly towards more south western areas. Northern Ireland

seeing dryer spells, not a washout here. Temperatures in the mid-teens.

Scotland holding on to sunshine. A few sharp showers around, but in

the brighter spells, fairly light winds, shouldn't feel so bad.

Further ahead into Wednesday, more showers on the menu, some brighter

spells, lifting those temperature noose the high teens, possibly low

20s, but the threat of further downpours possible, through the

second half of this week. No sign of any prolonged settled sunny