Browse content similar to 26/10/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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My Lords they have voted. Content to. Not content 272. Therefore the | :00:00. | :00:16. | |
content has it. And with that, the Lords said to the | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
government - we're up for a fight What was an argument over those cuts | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
could have become a full-on constitutional confrontation, | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
until the government appeared to David Cameron and I are clear that | :00:27. | :00:36. | |
this raises constitutional issues that need to be dealt with. However | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
it has happened and now we must address the consequences of that. I | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
said I would listen and that is what I intend to do. | :00:45. | :00:45. | |
Was the Lords right to take a stand, or was it out of order? | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
And what is left of the government's plan to save money on welfare? | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
He was the most important man in the world economy, dealing with the | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanake is here with us live. | :00:56. | :01:03. | |
Why does every British law still have to be written on some of this? | :01:04. | :01:19. | |
The Lords are either heroes of the people - resisting | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
the worst excesses of the government as a second chamber should. | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
Or they're oversized and unelected and trying to thwart | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
It's not the first time we've heard the argument - | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
but it turns out the radical left is on the side of the Lords tonight. | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
What the Lords voted to do was force a delay on the government's | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
It was a stance of arguable constitutional propriety, but it | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
I believe we can achieve the same goal of reforming tax credits, | :01:46. | :01:58. | |
saving the money we need to save to secure our economy whilst at the | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
same time helping in the transition. That is what I intend to do at the | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
Autumn Statement and I'm determined to deliver at the lower welfare and | :02:08. | :02:13. | |
higher wage economy we were elected to deliver at the British people | :02:14. | :02:14. | |
want to see. The chancellor conceding this | :02:15. | :02:15. | |
evening that mitigating measures would be taken | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
in his autumn statement. With me, our political editor | :02:19. | :02:19. | |
Allegra Stratton and our economics A fairly amazing day. George Osborne | :02:20. | :02:35. | |
was having a good run. This is the biggest U-turn he ever had to make. | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
He has been in this post for six years and he is wounded on a number | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
of levels this evening. Personally, politically wounded. A week ago | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
people said they were adamant they were not to be shifting. They send | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
out some heavy hitters to say they would not be shifting but it did not | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
convince the Lords so he is politically wounded. He is also | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
strategically wounded, he thought he would get it through both Houses of | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
Parliament through a statutory instrument. And economically this is | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
a saving of ?4 billion and if he is softening it in any way we have | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
defined billions of pounds for the Autumn Statement in one month. And | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
his rebranding is weakened, he was met to reposition the Tories as the | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
party of workers. Boris Johnson, his people are cock-a-hoop, thinking it | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
creates space for them to come through the middle. But whatever | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
happens in one month, by the end of this Parliament tax credits will be | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
performed in the way George Osborne would like. And that will be his | :03:43. | :03:52. | |
legacy in the fullness of time. Just in the public finance terms, 4.4 | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
billion between friends, can he lose that? Well he would rest on what was | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
called the pasty tax and that was small change compared to ?4.5 | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
billion. The problem is the Chancellor said tonight he will | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
continue to save money and also mitigate the impact. It is hard to | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
see how he will do that, hopefully all will be revealed at the Autumn | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
Statement at the end of November. If your triple checked pensioners and | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
take money from welfare, there will be losers. We do not know how much | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
the mitigation would be but even if it was a complete reversal of that | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
4.5 pounds, it sounds like a lot but the Chancellor Woods still just get | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
to a surplus at the end of this Parliament. Not by very much but on | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
current numbers he would still just about hit it. Economic week the | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
difference between a small surplus and small deficit might matter a lot | :04:50. | :04:50. | |
politically. Well there are two issues | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
at play here - tax credit cuts, and the right of the Lords to have | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
their say on them, or not. Our policy editor Chris Cook spent | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
the day following the Lords debate. George Osborne announced a big shift | :05:02. | :05:13. | |
at the July budget. The rabbit in his red box was a rise in the | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
national minimum wage but offset by deep cuts to tax credits. | :05:17. | :05:25. | |
The sheer scale of tax credits is subsidising lower wages in a way | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
that was never intended. So those who oppose any savings to tax | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
credits will have to explain how on earth they propose to eliminate the | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
deficit, let alone run a surplus and pay down debt. At the time papers | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
who had supported the Conservatives at the May election welcomed the | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
move. Nonu went quite as far as the Daily Mail which canonised the | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
Chancellor into Saint George. That all seems quite a long time ago. | :05:52. | :05:59. | |
That Dragon now looks a bit weak. The tax credit cuts will take ?4.4 | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
billion from 3.3 million households. An average of over ?1300 a year. And | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
the higher minimum wage will not close that gap. Disquiet about the | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
tax credit proposals has been growing since they were first | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
announced in summer and today they reached the House of Lords, just | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
behind the aunt of the picture George and Dragon. Here are | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
considering five potential puzzles ranging from out wide acceptance of | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
the plans through to outright rejection. There is a question about | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
how far the peers can go when dealing with a measure of this kind. | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
There are two reasons why there has been controversy about the | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
constitutional edition, regarding the convention of what the House of | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
Lords can do. A statutory instrument is a small matter that goes through | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
I much prefer a parliamentary process than ordinary law. It is | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
presented to both chambers on a take it is presented to both chambers on | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
Tay it basis. The House of Lords nominally has a veto but does not | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
use it. And then it was a financial measures and traditionally the House | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
of Lords does not get involved with financial measures. But we heard | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
arguments on both sides about what is constitutional or | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
unconstitutional and it is far from clear cut. In the event most years | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
took the view that the code after all have a crack at this | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
legislation. Baroness Hollis and Labour peer, put down one moment. It | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
delays the desired to ask the government to provide transitional | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
protection for families who are doing everything we asked of them. | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
Who trusted the Prime Minister that tax credits would not be cut. And | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
they trusted Parliament. My Lords when we said we would make work pay. | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
The Lords passed the proposed amendments including that of | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
Baroness Hollis. The voted to withhold consent of the cuts until | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
the government gave protection for a minimum of three years to families | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
who now receive tax credits. It is not comfortable for George Osborne | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
being told by unelected peers that you're out of touch with the | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
question is what he is going to do next. This problem is there are just | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
no easy fixes on tax credits. There are options such as cutting income | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
tax or national insurance. Tax credits actually are well targeted | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
on low income families generally with children, who are in work. And | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
so any change to the tax system would likely cost more money than | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
the original tax credit saving. And be less well targeted on families in | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
greatest need. There is another issue. This is the first majority | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
Tory government since Labour removed the Conservative hereditary ramp | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
from the House of Lords. It is always been defeating Labour | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
government but now with the defeating the Conservative | :09:00. | :09:00. | |
government for the first time because this is the first | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
Conservative majority governments since that reform. And the party | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
does not have a majority in the chamber. So we now have a situation | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
where the Lords can challenge Conservative government from the | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
left rather than a Labour government from the right which is quite a | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
change in British politics and rather uncomfortable for this | :09:18. | :09:25. | |
government. George Osborne says he is listening on tax credits but we | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
do not know what he will do. He says the vote has issues that must be | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
addressed. So a defeat for the government denied for sure but we | :09:35. | :09:35. | |
just do not know what is to follow. Tonight it was a motion proposed | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
by Labour's Baroness Hollis that caused this so-called | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
constitutional crisis. She's just come from her victory | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
in the Lords and is with us now. And so are two Tories of differing | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
views about this prickly predicament for the government - | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
the MP Jacob Rees-Mogg and activist Baroness Hollis, did you have any | :09:51. | :10:06. | |
qualms at all about the constitution of what you were proposing? No, if | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
the House of Commons wishes to claim financial privilege, which they are | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
entirely entitled to do, on for example an amendment to a bill, it | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
can be overturned in the Commons and the Speaker may give no reason and | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
simply say we certified as a money issue and that is that. So the | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
government could have done that, included it in the Welfare Reform | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
Bill for example. It chose not to get the protection of financial | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
privilege there. Secondly the government could if it had chosen, | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
on the other route of financial privilege and put it into a money or | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
supply finance bill. It did not do that either. So you feel entitled to | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
have a go at it? Disagree government did not seek or claim financial | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
privilege. Then when it comes up and says, actually, please assume we | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
wanted financial privilege. We did not ask for it but give it to us | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
anyway. Against that a 3 million people facing cuts. Jacob Rees-Mogg | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
you suggested the government create 100 years to override the Lords | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
decision. It is an extraordinary rich of the conventions and an | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
attack on the House of Commons money privilege on ?4.5 billion of | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
expenditure. Since 1860 this is the third occasion on which the House of | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
Lords has overturned the Commons on something relating to taxation or | :11:34. | :11:38. | |
expenditure. In 1868 was the painful duty would be liked, in 1909 it was | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
the People's budget and now this. The argument on the Commons | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
privilege on tax and expenditure long predates the creation of | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
statutory instruments and... Why did the government not choose to do as | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
Baroness Hollis suggests and introduce this as a financial | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
measure. Because this House of Lords has never overturned a statutory | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
instrument relating to money before. It has overturned a small | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
number, four or five statutory instruments since 1968. They only | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
came in in 1946. It is rare for the Lords vote down a statutory | :12:16. | :12:17. | |
instrument and unprecedented for them to vote down one on spending | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
four point ?4 billion. The government should have done what it | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
greatly goes and claimed financial privilege. It does it all the time | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
and it chose not to do it on this. And then afterwards said, please | :12:32. | :12:38. | |
treated as though we did. This is an attack on the House of Commons and | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
not on the government. It is the House of Commons Rutledge, the | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
Democratic ridged to determine taxation and spending. It is a | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
privilege inherit the subject matter. We have heard that debate. | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
Are you still proposing the government should create 100 years? | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
You think it now needs reform? There is a serious problem if the House of | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
Lords is going to overturn conventions. Up until the removal of | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
hereditary peers the Conservatives had an in-built majority but they | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
observed the conventions because they wanted to maintain the House of | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
Lords and said they were careful about exercising theoretical powers. | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
It is now a left-wing majority in House of Lords which in six months | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
of Conservative government has overturned the most important | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
convention, the taxation and expenditure is the prerogative of | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
the House of Commons and so the government needs to do something to | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
govern effectively until 2020. Is there an appetite in the | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
Conservative Party now to have a constitutional tussle with the House | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
of Lords? I do not think so. And just a month ago, just after David | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
Cameron has given his party conference speech, in which he | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
relaunched the Conservative Party as a 1 nation Conservative Party, to | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
try to stuff the House of Lords with 100 peers, to enact legislation that | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
cuts the benefits of the working poor, that is | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
cuts the benefits of the working for a party that is trying to | :14:13. | :14:14. | |
present itself as blue-collar friendly. So it would be | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
constitutionally difficult, but to do it for something that is so | :14:18. | :14:24. | |
controversial, so officers to where David Cameron says he wants to take | :14:25. | :14:26. | |
the Conservative Party, I do not think there is a chance in any | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
rational political sense that the Conservatives would do this. There | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
is a bit. It is not necessarily the most popular issue on which to | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
create 100 peers. But if the Lords within six months are willing to | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
overturn conventions, the government will have further controversial | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
business to introduce between now and 2020. If Lords are going to | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
break convention and overturn things that ought to go through smoothly, | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
the government will have great walk years. -- more peers. | :14:57. | :15:05. | |
In the President? Now, because they want the privilege, they should | :15:06. | :15:13. | |
claim it. They want you to behave as though they did. The law is | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
generally respects a manifesto commitments but unfortunately, this | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
was not in the manifesto. There was talk of welfare cuts but from my | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
experience, people did not think that those would be targeting people | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
in work. They had a false, unrealistic image that it was people | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
out of work. The government does not have the cover of a manifesto | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
commitment. David Cameron, as you know, made a public pledge twice | :15:42. | :15:48. | |
that they would not cut tax credits. But it was more ambitious than that. | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
The unelected house works properly when it will praise the conventions. | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
If this is a sign of regular breaches of convention, and the Lib | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
Dems have said they will not necessarily follow the convention, | :16:04. | :16:05. | |
then the Lords will need more appears to make sure the government | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
can get its manifesto through. What will the government to do about | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
this? George Osborne says there will be something in the Autumn | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
Statement. What would satisfy you? As a sensible way forward, I would | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
like to insure that the cuts only affect new claimants. Not existing | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
families, families who have done what we have asked for and have | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
built their life around what they are getting from the wage and income | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
support. Those families need this money. I have been reading letters | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
and e-mails from people saying, I am terrified when the Christmas letter | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
comes with the knot of occasion that I will lose ?3000 on a low | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
income... So new rules on new claimants but the old rules apply | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
for three years on old claimants? Exactly. Is this a retreat that will | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
ultimately benefit the government because it was turning out to be a | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
political headache and it was going to come back to the Commons. Some | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
said there might be more issues. And now, actually, it has a chance to be | :17:11. | :17:19. | |
dealt with. There is a difference in interest between George Osborne and | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
the Conservative Party. It has probably heard George Osborne's | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
authority. No chance likes to make a U-turn. This could have been very | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
difficult for the Conservative Party. There was evidence that 71 | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
constituencies, the 71 most marginal Tory MPs, the number of people | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
affected was greater than the majorities. Of course you have to | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
cut the deficit but when at the same time you are cutting inheritance tax | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
for the wealthy, when we have evidence that pensioners are better | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
off than the average citizen, that they are getting a 2.5% increase in | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
pensions, when inflation is falling, to make these kinds of cuts | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
to the working poor, when the Conservative Party is presenting | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
itself as creating so many jobs, this is a bad position for the | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
Conservative Party. On the substantive issue, the only thing | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
worse than the U-turn was to actually do the original plan. It is | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
difficult. The Chancellor had ?4.5 billion worth of savings lined up | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
from a budget that had gone from 1 million times -- ?1 billion to ?30 | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
billion. It was an expensive programme and we know that cuts need | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
to be made to balance the books. Chancellors have to make difficult | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
decisions. I think conservatives sometimes have to supports | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
chancellors with the means when they are difficult. Not all decisions and | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
government are easy. Old chancellors, good chancellors take | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
difficult decisions and stick to the thrust of them. But targeting the | :18:57. | :18:59. | |
working poor, was that really what we came into politics to do? The | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
government has made clear that the package as a whole will make sure | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
that people benefit. That is not true. I trust the government. You | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
might think I am naive but when the Chancellor says that the overall | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
package will insure that nine out of ten people are as well-off... That | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
is you and I. Eight out of ten is you and I. Its people getting tax | :19:25. | :19:33. | |
credits. It isn't, it isn't. You are right on that particular point. It | :19:34. | :19:43. | |
is benefits to help people with children in nursery education and so | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
on. The Chancellor has to make difficult decisions, and we have to | :19:48. | :19:50. | |
balance the books. One final question. What did you think you | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
were doing in the election campaign to put in ?12 billion of welfare | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
cuts, unspecified. Where were they going to come from? I will let you | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
into a secret. The Conservatives did not expect to win the general | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
election. There were promises made that they thought would be traded | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
away in coalition negotiation. Things like the right to buy for | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
housing associations. The Tories did not expect to have to make those | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
cuts. And of course, they are discovering the difficulties. We | :20:21. | :20:22. | |
will leave it there. It is amazing to reflect on the fact | :20:23. | :20:24. | |
that in the last few decades, professional economists have had | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
more power over economic policy than ever before, running independent | :20:28. | :20:29. | |
central banks around the world. And yet, in no time, | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
the world was engulfed by the worst economic crisis anyone could | :20:36. | :20:37. | |
remember - that financial crash One man who was right at the | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
centre of things was Ben Bernanke, an economist whose specialist | :20:41. | :20:51. | |
subject was the depression of the 1930s and who ended up in charge | :20:52. | :20:53. | |
of the US central bank for the great recession of the 2000s, | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
and who has just written I am honoured to announce that I am | :20:58. | :21:06. | |
nominating Ben Bernanke to be the next chairman of the Federal | :21:07. | :21:07. | |
Reserve. His timing could have hardly have | :21:08. | :21:09. | |
been worse - He got to the post just | :21:10. | :21:11. | |
in time to get his feet under And what | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
a storm it turned out to be. Meltdown on the markets as Wall | :21:17. | :21:26. | |
Street is left reeling from some of the biggest blows in its history. | :21:27. | :21:28. | |
Perhaps the key moment of the crisis was the collapse | :21:29. | :21:30. | |
Ben Bernanke had hoped that a rescue might have been orchestrated, | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
The UK, scared of inheriting Lehman's | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
Lehman toppled, and with it, confidence in the world's banks. | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
The next six years of Chairman Bernanke's career was spent | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
Including putting hundreds of billions of dollars into the US | :21:54. | :22:01. | |
economy through quantitative easing. What better career | :22:02. | :22:03. | |
for someone who'd once been a young professor, studying the mistakes | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
of economic policy in the past? And he hasn't changed a bit in all | :22:06. | :22:15. | |
those years. Ben Bernanke is with us. Good evening. Could we go to | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
that Lehman Brothers collapsed moments? I think some US policy | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
makers, deep down, blame the Brits for stopping Barclays taking over | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
Lehmans, which would have made an enormous difference. It was a | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
crushing blow at the time because the British would not allow Barclays | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
to acquire Lehman Brothers. But a couple of things, I understand why | :22:40. | :22:42. | |
the Chancellor did not do it. He did not want the bad assets to end up on | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
the British taxpayers doorstep. And we tried desperately to save Lehman | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
Brothers. Even if we had saved them, something would have failed | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
eventually because Congress would not act until they saw the | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
consequences of a failure. So there would have been a big crisis? | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
Eventually, I am afraid, yes. Your political journey comes off in the | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
-- comes across in the book, you start off as a small government | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
Republican and become persuaded that there is a role for government. You | :23:15. | :23:20. | |
talk about having to stop people buying certain products like | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
inflammable pyjamas for children. And I don't think you had the view | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
at the beginning, you thought there would be more personal | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
responsibility. Tell us about that journey. I always took a moderate | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
position. I think the market is critical for a good economy but the | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
government has a role to play. I think the party left me because the | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
tea party and the extremes of left and right left me in the middle, and | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
many other Americans, I think, who would like a more balanced approach. | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
Unfortunately that is not worry are right now. Who would you vote for in | :23:54. | :24:02. | |
the next election? I don't know what I am registered. I did not vote as a | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
matter of principle when I was chairman. Those on the left look | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
back at the last 30 years of the neoliberal consensus, neoliberal | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
economics, and they see that as an ideological stands, that the world | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
took, after Thatcher and Reagan. Are they right to see it as | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
ideologically or is that just technocrats doing their best for the | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
world? I think in the case of the financial system, there was too much | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
deregulation. The regular system was put together in the 30s during the | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
great depression and it did not keep up with what happened, the | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
innovations and change, and so when the crisis came, we did not have the | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
tools and the vision. We could not see what was going on. I am not sure | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
I would indict the philosophical approach. I think we need good | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
regulation and that is what is happening now. What about austerity? | :24:56. | :25:20. | |
In the book and in subsequent interviews, you have criticised | :25:21. | :25:22. | |
governments for pushing too hard on the fiscal retrenchment, leaving a | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
lot of pressure on you guys doing the monetary policy to put your feet | :25:26. | :25:27. | |
on the accelerator while the government is putting their feet on | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
the brakes. Was that ideologically? It was very practical. I think too | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
much burden has been put on central banks to carry the recovery. The | :25:33. | :25:34. | |
fiscal policy has focused too much on short-term cuts and austerity. I | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
think when you have millions of unemployed, it is not the time to be | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
making sharp cuts, to be doing sequester us and fiscal clefs and | :25:41. | :25:42. | |
all the things that have happened in the Congress. What about the -- what | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
about Europe and the UK? I think it depends on the circumstances. Greece | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
is not going to do fiscal expansion but a country like Germany has scope | :25:50. | :25:55. | |
to do that. And the UK, I am not an expert but I think the UK was | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
somewhere between the Europeans and the US and it has had a decent | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
recovery, as you know. The UK fiscal stands is coming to a neutral | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
position. It was a little tight early on and perhaps they could have | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
done better. I asking because we have this charter for budget | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
responsibility which will mandate a budget surplus under normal | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
circumstances. Would you consider that fiscally responsible or | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
irresponsible, making the life of central bankers harder? It depends. | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
If you are in a recession and the period of high unemployment, I think | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
you need to be prepared to have a deficit in those situations, and | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
understand that in periods of rapid growth, you will concentrate on | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
that. I would not want to do that all the time. But do you want a law | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
that says you have to have a surplus except under predefined | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
circumstances? I think that you want to have the flexibility to respond | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
to national emergencies. In particular response to recession | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
is, like a deep one we have just come out of. Looking back at the | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
crisis, clearly the public were left quite angry, with the sense that | :27:10. | :27:12. | |
they picked up the bills and other people got away with it. Bluntly, do | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
you think more bankers should have been put in jail? I think the | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Department of Justice's strategy could be more focused on individual | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
responsibility. They find the big institutions billions of dollars. | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
What was the individual responsibility? I don't think we | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
know the answer. Because we didn't bother to look. That was my concern. | :27:34. | :27:41. | |
Let's talk about the policy regime. If you were writing a note, you were | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
going to write it on vellum and bury it. If it was a letter to | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
policymakers in 60 years' time, giving them the benefit of your | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
advice, having been through this crisis, what would the pithy single | :27:57. | :28:05. | |
piece of advice be? I think when the situation is looking benign, that is | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
when the risk is building, so be vigilant. And that was the story of | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
the precrisis power-down? That was what happened. And how do we get out | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
of the paradox? Vigilance. If we look carefully and pay enough | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
attention, then we can withstand the shocks. But you are great land of -- | :28:26. | :28:31. | |
a great fan of inflation targeting. We were looking for inflation but we | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
did not have it. Meanwhile, a wolf came in the back and did a great | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
deal of damage to financial stability. Do you concede that you | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
need a financial instability remit in monetary policy as well as an | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
inflationary policy? With the central bank -- the central bank, | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
the Fed has extensive resources to monitoring -- devoted to monitoring | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
for problems. Monetary policy does not have to do everything. I think | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
regulation, supervision, oversight, macro credential policies, those are | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
the first line is that we should take. And how we rectify these | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
problems? We will never do that completely but we have made | :29:15. | :29:15. | |
progress. Ben Bernanke, thank you. How should teachers deal with pupils | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
whose behaviour is out of control? They are allowed to use force | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
as a last resort, but unions have told Newsnight that an increasing | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
number of their members are worried if they do so - even in quite | :29:26. | :29:28. | |
legitimate circumstances - they Secunder Kermani spoke to one | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
headteacher who nearly lost For these children this classroom is | :29:32. | :29:46. | |
their last chance of staying within the school system. Social and | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
emotional difficulties mean other schools have not been able to handle | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
them. It also means that at times dealing with them can be | :29:55. | :30:02. | |
challenging. This is how teachers in both special | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
education and mainstream schools are taught to physically restrain | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
pupils. It is always meant to be a last resort, never a punishment. The | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
need to protect the child and others around them. But of course it is | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
controversial and can have serious consequences for the child and for | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
the teacher. Trystan Williams had won awards as a | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
headteacher dealing with challenging pupils at mainstream schools. Two | :30:32. | :30:40. | |
years ago he tried to help avoid who was at risk of seriously harming | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
himself. And it almost cost him his career. I attempted to lift the | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
young man up. In the process of trying to lift him off the floor he | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
pulled me down on top of them and sustained an injury. I was alone | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
with the child and under the circumstances sadly, the external | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
agencies felt I had a sort of the young man. I just thought I had | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
winded him, I had no idea of the catastrophic events that were going | :31:11. | :31:16. | |
to happen. Trystan Williams was suspended and subject to a police | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
investigation. After 12 months he was cleared and returned to work in | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
another school. To have that taken away from you for simply trying to | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
do your best, it actually drove me to consider... Whether I should | :31:29. | :31:39. | |
still be here. You know. And when that happens, you think I have | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
sacrificed a lot for transforming lives and this is the way I get | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
treated for trying to do my best. That is difficult to come to terms | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
with. Then when my wife, obviously she needed support and my boys are | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
having psychiatric counselling and help. Because they could not sleep | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
at night and did not want to go to bed in case daddy got locked up. | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
That was hard working. Trystan Williams's case is extreme but not | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
the only one. We have heard of other examples of investigations going on | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
for months before teachers are eventually cleared. At times some | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
have even been driven out of the profession. We are dealing with a | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
couple of cases per month on average that has come to a difficult | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
situation where someone has been suspended or faces some kind of | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
challenge as the result of that. That hides many more were decisions | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
had not been made upon public and were perhaps children who should | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
have been restrained have not been restrained because professionals are | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
not certain as to their powers and rights. The Department for Education | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
guidance states teachers should not be suspended automatically when a | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
complaint is made. And that 90% of investigations should be completed | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
within three months. Unions believe that is not happening. The last time | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
the Department for Education counted, 74% of cases concluded | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
within the time. They do not have up-to-date figures but advise | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
schools that cases should be swiftly investigated. Allegations of misuse | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
of restraints are serious. In August the school in Devon was closed down | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
as police examined claims that staff used excessive force on pupils. And | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
this is footage of primary pupils in Tottenham being restrained last | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
year. The school and council reviewed safeguarding procedures and | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
Ofsted cleared them of wrongdoing but some parents were furious. How | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
often are you in scenarios where a restraint is one of the options? | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
Teachers at the school managed to dramatically reduce the number of | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
restraints they use by concentrating more on de-escalation. September it | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
49 times, the September just one time. But the knowledge that | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
restraining a pupil could end their career is a constant concern. I was | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
suspended for eight months. After two weeks the police had | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
investigated and cleared me. But you go through the emotional stresses | :34:17. | :34:23. | |
and strains of waiting for governors to confirm the decision that you can | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
come back to school, come back to work. You're not necessarily given | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
the protection that we deserve as professionals. Nobody wants to do | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
it. It is dreadful for them, horrendous for us and at the end of | :34:40. | :34:41. | |
it you over analyse everything constantly. What could I have done, | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
could I have done that differently. It is a horrible situation to be in | :34:48. | :34:55. | |
but at times it is necessary. Bernard Allen helps to train | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
teachers and acts as an expert witness. He says there needs to be | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
more consistency on how guidelines on the straights are set out. It is | :35:06. | :35:15. | |
better management and supervision required to stop the bad people | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
abusing the powers. But the moment it is decided in different areas of | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
the country by different individuals. What is good actors in | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
Dorset is considered abuse interim and that is the situation we have | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
had for 25 years. Trystan Williams and that is the situation we have | :35:30. | :35:37. | |
is now headteacher at another school but worries that what happened to | :35:38. | :35:40. | |
him could still happen to other professionals. That could happen to | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
anybody in a school similar to mine. Wrong place, wrong time. Complex | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
situation, trying to do the best. And your life will never be the same | :35:55. | :35:55. | |
again. Trystan Williams ending that report | :35:56. | :35:57. | |
by Secunder Kermani. We started on tax credit cuts - | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
let's finish with another idea A committee of MPs has suggested | :36:01. | :36:02. | |
that ?80,000 could be saved if acts of parliament were no | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
longer printed on vellum made At the moment, | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
the practice is to print two such copies of each act, one | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
for the National Archive and one for A key feature | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
of vellum is its longevity. Replace vellum with paper - | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
even the most expensive, thick kind of paper that you buy | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
at the poshest of stationery shops Well, we have some vellum now, | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
live in the studio. I'm with Paul Wright who runs | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
the last surviving vellum works Good evening. How does this get | :36:37. | :36:47. | |
turned into a piece of act of Parliament, for example M if we go | :36:48. | :37:01. | |
back to the start, one of the supermarkets put in an order for | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
beefburgers and we going and take a by-product. Not killing animals for | :37:05. | :37:12. | |
this? It is just going in the bin. Then we go into this 1000 -year-old | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
process of soaking it, getting the skin to the and then setting to with | :37:18. | :37:30. | |
this what is called a lunar. Literally we shave and scrape. You | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
do not do this by hand M everything is done by hand. We have no machines | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
to do it. It takes about seven years. And this is why it costs ?14 | :37:41. | :37:47. | |
for a sheet. It was but into that ?14, what do we get for that? You | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
get about 5000 years of secure data storage. The world... It sounds like | :37:54. | :38:03. | |
a long time. Looking at the dead Sea Scrolls, found in the back of a | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
cave, 2400 years after they had been written. They were stumbled across. | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
That is a long time. Can find no reduce something that can do better | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
than this? Sadly for silent -- the science and gladly for me, they | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
cannot. We got involved with a project in 2000 and people wanted to | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
bury data for 1000 years and went all round all the technology | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
companies in the world saying, convince us that in the year 3000, | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
we can recover this data and it will be good. Who do you sell it to, | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
apart from the records office? It goes to calligraphers, illuminators, | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
botanical artists, hobbyists. It goes all over the world. We are | :38:56. | :39:01. | |
considered the finest in the world. What to use to write on it? Cast | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
your mind back to the Bronze Age, if they managed to do it with a bit of | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
Bernard Twigg, everything forward of that works. If you want to do it | :39:13. | :39:19. | |
with a Biro, that will work fine. If you want longevity it is the ink | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
that becomes the limiting factor. If you take an archival ink and applied | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
to this than I could give you a piece today and you could write and | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
it would be round in a thousand years. Could I print a photograph of | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
my other half on this cruel printer in my lounge? Absolutely. So there | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
is a market, people would love something that costs ?14. We do do | :39:45. | :39:53. | |
things, we have printed best man speech is, specialist speeches from | :39:54. | :40:00. | |
father to daughter, all kinds of things. Good luck with the business, | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
that is really interesting. It has been a pleasure. | :40:05. | :40:07. |