Browse content similar to 26/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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and we're devoting our programme tonight to it. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
The debate over military action in Syria. | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
We have to hit these terrorists in their heartland right now. | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
The Prime Minister set out the case for war. | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
The Commons also heard the case against. | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
Enemies to the right of of us, enemies to the left of it! | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
We'll hear from those who've recently fled | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Islamic State's hub, the city of Raqqa. | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
And we'll ask, will military action work? | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
There's talk of meltdown in the Labour Party over the issue. | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
Diane Abbott will be with us to set out her view. | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
And we meet this family escaping Syria to come to Scotland. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
Syria is enduring a civil war that has now run longer than World War I. | :00:55. | :01:10. | |
The country had a population of 22 million before it started. | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
It's now reported to be down to 16.5 million. | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
Seven million of those who remain are internally displaced. | :01:18. | :01:24. | |
more than a quarter of a million people. | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
It was complicated enough before last year, | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
when the self-styled Islamic State declared a caliphate | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
and overran territory that covered much of Syria and Iraq, | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
but there are now clearly bad guys on both sides of the conflict. | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
And the issue is whether Britain should get more involved | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
in the fight against one of them in Syria - Isil. | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
The Prime Minister set out why we should, | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
and MPs had the chance to raise their concerns, | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
We'll take the time to set out the key issues, | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
but let's start by hearing from Allegra Stratton | :01:59. | :02:00. | |
It is a caution, but today, whether or not | :02:01. | :02:14. | |
numbers. The concerns of MPs caution, but today, whether or not | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
the Prime Minister to the house with a 7-point response. There | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
the Prime Minister to the house with 7 points back from Jeremy Corbyn, | :02:23. | :02:23. | |
five points from 7 points back from Jeremy Corbyn, | :02:24. | :02:31. | |
number, the 324 MPs needed to win a vote in Parliament. Statement, the | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
Prime Minister! The Prime Minister set out his strategy, the seven | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
points addressed in turn, why, why ask, why now, the legal basis, | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
allies on the ground, overall strategy, and the end goal. Gogol | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
allies on the ground, overall do face a fundamental threat to our | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
security, we have to hit the securities in | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
security, we have to hit the now. And we must not shirk our | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
responsibility for security or hand it to others. Mr Speaker, throughout | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
our history the United Kingdom has stood up to defend our values and | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
our way of life. We can and we must do so again. Jeremy Corbyn had his | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
seven questions. He later wrote to MPs opposing action, but in the | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
chamber his reluctance was on show. The question must now be when | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
extending the UK bombing from Iraq to Syria is likely to reduce or | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
increase that thread. And whether it will counter or spread the terror | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
campaign Isil is waging in the Middle East. But this man is | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
something of a weather vane - the chair of the committee that said the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
Prime Minister the seven tests, he said this. It is now my personal | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
view that, on balance, the country would be best served by this house | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
supporting his judgment that the United Kingdom should play a full | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
role in the coalition. But what are the numbers? Two, the UN resolution | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
which many think authorises action, including some sitting behind Jeremy | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
Corbyn, at odds with their leader. Candy confirmed that it does not | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
just permit all necessary steps to be taking? -- can he confirm. But it | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
actually calls upon member states to take all necessary steps. 70,000 is | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
the number of moderate Syrian opposition troops the Prime Minister | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
said would do the heavy lifting. Many doubted this number. The | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
suggestion that there are 70,000 none Islamist moderate, credible | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
ground forces, I have to say, is a revelation to me, and I suspect most | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
other members in this house. The Prime Minister has talked about | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
70,000 Free Syrian Army troops, how many of those are in the north-east | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
of Syria on the front line against Syrian regime forces? And the fate | :04:52. | :05:02. | |
of one man, President Assad. As in 2013, any idea of his removal is | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
highly contentious. Any agreement will have to involve unpleasant | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
people being involved, and not just people who would naturally be our | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
allies, and Assad and other people may have 2 be involved. How will he | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
avoid giving support or appearing to give support to Assad forces and | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
becoming dependent on Assad forces, and how will he avoid that giving | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
succour to Isil in its recruitment in the region? This is a really | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
unusual parliamentary moment. The Prime Minister told us today he will | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
only bring a vote if he thinks he will win it. That takes a lot of the | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
jeopardy out of the vote, he will only bring a vote to this place if | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
he is said and he will not lose. So can he get to that 324 majority? | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
Well, if you imagine there is about 15 Tory rebels, they are cancelled | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
out by 15 Labour rebels coming over to support the Prime Minister. Add | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
in the DUP and top up that number with a few more Labour supporters, | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
and the Prime Minister this evening probably does have his numbers. | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
Let's pick up on some of those themes, Allegra is with me. | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
The debate is clearly within as well as across parties, | :06:19. | :06:20. | |
which brings us to what can only be called turmoil | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
Diggers through what happened today. There was a meeting of the Shadow | :06:24. | :06:33. | |
Cabinet. We expect that Jeremy Corbyn and the Shadow Chancellor | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
will decide they cannot vote. It is, but we understand from this meeting | :06:37. | :06:42. | |
that the majority of the people who spoke did so in favour of strikes, | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
so far so simple, except for the fact that also suggested was the | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
idea that there want there to be an absolute whipped vote in favour of | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
strikes. In favour of strikes, as opposed to what you have heard about | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
so far, a whip to vote against strikes. They were really pushing | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
it. My understanding is, firstly, as you suggest, this would be | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
extraordinary, because we think this would be the first time in recent | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
memory that you have got a leader and his Shadow Chancellor boating to | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
defy a whip, so why would they say that? -- voting macro. There is | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
electable and it, the view that you cannot be the opposition and have | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
heard everything and not doing anything about it. There is the | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
principle of it, people like Vernon Coaker, who just believe it. And | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
then there are those were fed up with Jeremy Corbyn, it is understood | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
that Tom Watson, the deputy leader, who would be right there in the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
middle. Critically, in terms of this question about a whipped vote, | :07:46. | :07:48. | |
personally I do not think it is a goer. They have until Monday to | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
decide, but I think it is a negotiating position, they really | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
want a free vote, and if they push for the whipped vote, the compromise | :08:00. | :08:00. | |
is something in the middle. Well, the Shadow International | :08:01. | :08:02. | |
Development Secretary, Diane Abbott, is here with me to discuss | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
Labour's position on Syria, but before we do, Jo Cox, | :08:05. | :08:06. | |
another Labour MP, who actually spoke out | :08:07. | :08:08. | |
in support of intervention in the Commons today, | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
joins us via Skype. Just take us through your position | :08:12. | :08:25. | |
on this as of now, Jo. Thanks, just to clarify, I am as yet and decided, | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
but I thought today was an important step forward with the Prime | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
Minister. -- undecided. The Prime Minister presented a compelling case | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
of the threat that Isis bases as in Britain. It is three years to late, | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
it should not have taken a humanitarian crisis of this scale | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
for the attacks in Paris to do that, but I welcome the fact that he had a | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
comprehensive strategy today. My outstanding concerns relate to just | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
how much emphasis the Government will give to dealing with the | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
brutality of Assad, which cannot be separated from any strategy to | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
tackle the horror of Isis. If you come to the view that we should get | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
involved, we should bomb, would you see that as the kind of you that you | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
would divide a party whip on if that was necessary? I think this has to | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
be a matter of conscience for all MPs, and speaking to many colleagues | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
on all sides of the house today, I think many share that view. Yeah, I | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
think all of us have to think first and foremost about how do we keep | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
Britain safe, but secondly how do we ensure that we protect Syrians who, | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
of course, are suffering untold horrors as we speak, and this crisis | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
and our strategy has to be about a political transition in Syria that | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
ultimately ends the conflict. Very briefly, it may be, I don't know, | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
but in your constituency, your local members responsible for running your | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
local party, they may take a different view and come to a | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
different conclusion to you. Do you see it as important to listen to | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
them autistic to your own view? I mean, I have been talking to party | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
members about this issue for many, many months, and there is a | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
divergent views among party members, as amongst the public. I | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
feel that it is my responsibility to listen to that diversity of views, | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
but ultimately take a view as to what I think we'll keep Britain safe | :10:27. | :10:37. | |
from the threat of Isis. Thank you very much indeed. Diane Abbott, | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
should Jo Cox vote with her conscience on this issue? I think | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
what we should all do is look at what will make British people safe, | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
first and foremost, as parliamentarians, that must be our | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
concern, but on the Shadow Cabinet today, which I was actually at! I | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
think it was a bit more balanced than the people who came out and | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
briefed Allegra. We agree that we have to vote to keep Britain safe, | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
we have to go back to our constituencies, talk to friends, | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
families and party members. We have agreed to speak to constituents, | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
friends, families and party members and come back on Monday and take a | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
decision. But this notion of the Shadow Cabinet as some kind of | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
workers' collective, which can decide the whipping, I have been in | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
Parliament for 28 years, I have never heard that, that would be an | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
innovation! Who decides which way it is whipped? You know as well as I | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
do, the leader consults with colleagues and the whips' office, | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
very important, but it is the leader, so how is the Shadow Cabinet | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
going to decide that?! Does everybody agree on that? As far as I | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
know, there is no president macro for the Shadow Cabinet trying to | :11:56. | :12:07. | |
throw down their leader. -- precedent. The YouGov polls show | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
that 70% of party members are against bombing. But it shows that | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
59% of the public are in favour, so which should members listen to, | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
membership of the party or the public out there? The point I am | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
making is that there has been a lot of talk of split in the party, but | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
the party members and Jeremy are united, the issue is with MPs. But | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
aren't MPs responsible to voters? We are all responsible to the | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
electorate, we all have a responsibility, as I said at the | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
beginning, to keep the British people safe. I disagree with Jo, I | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
do not think David Cameron has made the case. Who are the ground forces | :12:49. | :12:58. | |
supposed to be? The real danger, and I do not think there is public | :12:59. | :13:00. | |
support for this, as we will get drawn into a land war in Syria. | :13:01. | :13:03. | |
There will have to be a free vote, won't there? Is it possible that the | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
leader of the party can vote a different way to the foreign | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
spokesman of the party, Hilary Benn, on an issue of going to war, and for | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
both of them to stay in their posts? Many people will think it is not | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
conceivable, Hilary Benn and Jeremy Corbyn to be imposed and vote on | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
different sides on this. Many people think it is not conceivable that the | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
Shadow Cabinet can decide the whipping. We will come together on | :13:29. | :13:36. | |
Monday and arrive at a unified position in the interests of the | :13:37. | :13:38. | |
British people. Jeremy Corbyn said today, we are going to come back on | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
Monday, have a discussion and come to a collective view, but the view I | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
have, and I will only accept, is that I will not vote for military | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
action. That is not very polite, is it? He is showing leadership, making | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
his position clear. When the Shadow Cabinet members said, what a | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
surprise, no, he said it at the beginning of the meeting. You said | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
earlier that this is a very unusual situation, I have been here two | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
times before, when the drums of war are beating | :14:10. | :14:09. | |
times before, when the drums of war there seems to be this irresistible | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
pressure for British intervention. I have been here before, I never | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
thought I would be here for a third time of asking. I do not believe | :14:21. | :14:22. | |
that bombing without a time of asking. I do not believe | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
diplomatic strategy, without troops on the ground will actually cut of | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
the head of the snake that is Isis and bring peace to Syria. | :14:31. | :14:49. | |
there have to be boots on the ground to complement any bombing, | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
The Prime Minister says we can't wait | :14:57. | :14:58. | |
for the politics to fall into place, we must take action now, | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
but he agrees bombing won't work alone. | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
But as we've said, the conflict is complicated - | :15:04. | :15:05. | |
countries more and less friendly to us are involved, | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
united in hating Isil, implacably opposed on the issue of Assad, | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
or on the Kurds, or on Sunni-Shia tensions. | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
Mark Urban is here to explain some of the intricacies. | :15:16. | :15:53. | |
Most of Syria, it's the Assad army or one of the rebel groups. | :15:54. | :16:15. | |
David Cameron today talked about 70,000 moderate rebels. | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
Experts don't disagree wildly on the number, | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
rather it's dozens of non-jihadist groups | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
with politics from the fundamentalist to democrats, | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
Foreign forces might play all sorts of roles, | :16:35. | :16:42. | |
including sealing Turkey's border with Syria. | :16:43. | :16:47. | |
Without foreign ground forces, pressure will be limited, | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
Is there any cause for optimism on military action? | :16:51. | :17:04. | |
Well, just recently there's actually been one important | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
development, and that's the battle to hit Islamic State's finances | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
by attacking its income from clandestine oil exports. | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
The trade is carried by tanker trucks that sell oil and | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
refined products to both the Syrian government and Turkish middlemen. | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
Russia has recently launched air strikes | :17:28. | :17:29. | |
So in recent days, the Americans have also been | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
hitting the tanker convoys and oil markets, | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
strafing and blowing up tankers in this footage. | :17:42. | :17:43. | |
They've actually got rather competitive with the Russians, | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
But Islamic State still has the options of taxing local people | :17:46. | :17:58. | |
more heavily and raising more from sympathisers abroad. | :17:59. | :18:01. | |
So what is the key, what are the keys to moving forward? You could go | :18:02. | :18:14. | |
for an internationally negotiated deal leading to a UN resolution, | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
international peacekeeping forces. You might call that | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
the Bosnian model. regional consensus, | :18:20. | :18:21. | |
simply isn't there. This week we've seen | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
the sharp escalation of tension between two key players - | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
Russia and Turkey. advanced long-range | :18:35. | :18:36. | |
anti-aircraft missiles at its base in Syria | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
that could be used to shoot down Turkish fighters if there was | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
a repeat of Tuesday's incident. Although there has been some talk | :18:48. | :19:05. | |
through the so-called Vienna progress, unless you can get Assad | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
backed by Russia, the rebel groups backed by the Gulf states, Turkey, | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
unless you can get them closer together, you know, there isn't | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
going to be a meaningful change in the situation. We know Russia says | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
it is hitting IS, but so many of the strikes have been against the | :19:23. | :19:24. | |
moderates that David Cameron was talking about today, and frankly, | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
unless you crack that central conundrum of Assad and the rebel | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
groups, people will carry on supporting IS, and everything | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
America does, and by extension Britain, will be peripheral to that | :19:38. | :19:39. | |
central question. Thanks, Mark. | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
Now in the Commons today, the intervention of one man | :19:43. | :19:44. | |
was important. He is Crispin Blunt, chair of the | :19:45. | :19:45. | |
Foreign Affairs Select Committee. His committee had written a report | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
sceptical of military action, but Mr Blunt now says his | :19:49. | :19:50. | |
reservations have been dealt with and he is in support, | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
and he's here with us. Good evening to you. This sounds | :19:54. | :20:03. | |
like a morass, you were sceptical, you said there had to be some kind | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
of provisional political arrangement to provide boots on the ground, to | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
provide something to fill the gap if you get rid of Isil. What has | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
changed? What has satisfied you? Vienna has changed things. If you | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
look at the conclusions of the Vienna meeting on the 14th of | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
November, you can see the route to a transition process, and the | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
significance of Vienna is that you have got all the key countries | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
around the table, the Iranians and the Saudis, a process led by the | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
Americans and the Russians. And the key elements to that agreement | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
outlined the future type of state that Syria will be, it outlines the | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
political process, the electoral process that will happen at the end | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
of it, ensuring that Syrians who have been displaced are going to be | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
part of the electorate. It outlines who will be supervising that | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
process. Critically, amongst that, it commits the countries around the | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
table, all of whom have different clients in this game, to bring their | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
clients to the table. You can see the need for that. The Russians need | :21:05. | :21:09. | |
an out, given what has happened in Turkey. I hear what you are saying, | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
but the key thing the Prime Minister is saying is you have to have this | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
all in place, but you cannot wait for that to be delivered, we have to | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
shoot now, bomb now, fill all of that in later. And what we know is | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
that the British contribution to air strikes in Syria is going to be | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
marginal to all of this. The containment and the degrading of | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
Isil within Syria is happening at the hands of the French, the | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
Americans and the Russians. But why wouldn't we wait and see whether the | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
politics fits into place? The question for the United Kingdom is | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
whether it can be more influential on the politics as a full member of | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
the coalition, or as a non-belligerent in Syria. That is | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
the hypothesis, if we are a full part of the coalition, we will have | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
more influence over that political process? That is one of the | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
questions, and I would agree it is a marginal call. Having spoken to the | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
Saudis, for example, and the MRI these in the course of the visit my | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
committee has made in the last week, they are very keen that we should be | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
in that coalition. -- the Emiratis. There is an element of our European | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
and American allies saying, if you are not fully in this, we're not | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
going to listen to what you have to say. There is also the zoo of | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
solidarity with the French in the light of Paris, and our leaders feel | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
that quite strongly. -- the issue. Since it is a marginal call, my | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
belief is the House of Commons should give them the benefit of the | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
doubt. Isil has got to be defeated, that is the bottom line. What | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
happens if the judgment you are making that Vienna will lead to | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
something does not happen, and other great morass, bombing people, a lot | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
of enemies fighting around them? There are a lot of fundamental now | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
widely Vienna process is going to produce something. The principal | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
reason is that the Russians have now got themselves engaged, and they now | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
need an out, otherwise they are going to be left in this... But | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
there must be a risk that be and it doesn't lead anywhere, the risk of | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
bombing first and waiting to see if it delivers. -- Vienna. The bombing | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
is happening anyway, so the British role in the bombing is at the | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
margins, there is a little bit of military utility for the Government | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
to claim, which if it exists. If it is made too much of, it is an | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
argument carrying too much weight, but there is some weight in that | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
argument about the use of particular skills of the RAF and the Brimstone | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
missile and intelligence acquisition kits they have got as part of the | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
coalition. But the principle is you is about how Britain can be taken | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
most seriously as a member of the coalition. -- the principal issue. | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
One last one, we heard today of the 70,000 non-jihadi fighters, Free | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
Syrian Army fighters. Could you name the leader of that group of | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
fighters? Voice who do we phone? It is the current president of the | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
Syrian National Coalition, that is the political body. So of one of | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
them is breaking the Geneva Convention, we call him and say, can | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
you deal with it? There is a process going on next week as the Saudis are | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
holding a meeting of all the Syrian opposition groups to try to create a | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
representative body for all these Syrian opposition groups and entered | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
these talks with the Syrian government. That is actually another | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
important part of the process, it shows that the political transition | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
is active, there is a plan, and you can see a route to it because | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
everybody's interests are in getting this done. If I can see the route | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
and the Prime Minister can see the route, and he took a lot of time to | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
answer my committee's questions, then my judgment is we need to give | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
him the benefit of the doubt, because this is the bottom line - we | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
have to take control of the territory from Isil. We are going to | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
discuss this with some people who have local views if they agree. | :25:12. | :25:13. | |
Crispin Blunt, thank you. We hate to call the city of Raqqa | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
in Syria the capital of the Islamic State, | :25:17. | :25:18. | |
as IS is not a state. by talking to those | :25:19. | :25:26. | |
who've managed to get out. Raqqa has been one of the main | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
targets of coalition air strikes. The city is touted by Isis | :25:33. | :25:40. | |
as the almost Utopian capital Tonight, though, we speak to | :25:41. | :25:44. | |
refugees who fled the city who say At first people thought that Isis | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
was their saviour, but within a month | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
everything changed. You can see a beheaded corpse | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
at every other street corner. The eastern city, believed to have | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
a population of around 400,000, was the first provincial capital | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
to fall to initially moderate rebel forces before Isis took it over | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
from them in late 2013. They turned the city's landmarks | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
into symbols of brutality. The once bustling plaza | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
around the clock tower is now Roundabouts are at times filled | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
with the decapitated heads of opponents, and churches | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
like this one have been taken over. The city has also been pounded | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
by air strikes by Assad, by the western-led coalition, | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
and most recently by the Russians. Refugees who fled the city | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
in the last few weeks sent us videos | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
describing their experiences. They have had to hide | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
their identities. whereas the Russians | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
mainly targeted civilians. Isis hide in underground shelters | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
with their families. A few went to places like Palmyra, | :27:02. | :27:11. | |
but others stayed in Raqqa. Isis have trumpeted their medical | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
and education facilities, but the refugees say Isis isn't even | :27:18. | :27:19. | |
providing them with the basics. Electricity and water were | :27:20. | :27:28. | |
only available two hours a day But once Isis took control, we only | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
got half an hour of electricity a day and water every | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
couple of days. Food is really expensive and you | :27:42. | :27:43. | |
have to wait at the bakery all day just to get | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
a loaf of bread. Isis control large parts of | :27:47. | :27:48. | |
the east of Syria around Raqqa, but Kurdish and moderate Syrian rebels | :27:49. | :27:54. | |
have been advancing in the north, They now control Ain Issa, | :27:55. | :27:56. | |
30 miles north of Raqqa, and there are rumours | :27:57. | :28:04. | |
of an assault on Raqqa. But Kurdish forces have been accused | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
of atrocities against local Arabs and are unlikely to be welcomed | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
in the city. We're between a rock | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
and a hard place. they've stepped up their control | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
of the city. We were told it is now much | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
harder to leave Raqqa and hardly anyone | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
can use the internet. How Isis rule their capital | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
could prove their undoing, but no-one knows | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
who will replace them. So how might life there advance | :28:36. | :29:05. | |
if Isil were displaced? the Chief of Staff to the President | :29:06. | :29:07. | |
of the Syrian Opposition Council, from Moscow, Katya Mavrenkova, | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
an editor at Russia Today. And here in the studio | :29:13. | :29:14. | |
is Hassan Hassan, author of Isis: | :29:15. | :29:16. | |
Inside the Army of Terror. First of all, what is your view | :29:17. | :29:23. | |
about the decision Britain is making? Well, there is a special | :29:24. | :29:30. | |
importance for a British role in Syria, because the UK supports the | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
struggle for freedom and democracy. That is why the Syrian people, I | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
think that they will welcome British involvement in Syria. Catania, how | :29:43. | :29:50. | |
about you? Well, if you expect me to speak on behalf of of the | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
government, they have made it clear they would welcome for efforts to | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
fight Isil, whether it would be the US, the UK, and the Russian | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
government has been calling for a grand coalition to fight against | :30:05. | :30:11. | |
Isis. OK, agreement there, Hassan, are you in favour? I think the UK | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
should be involved in the campaign, firstly because it helps the UK to | :30:18. | :30:21. | |
be more involved on the ground, and that helps in practical things like | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
gathering intelligence, but also to be involved, be part of, you know, | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
any solution, any political solution to the conflict. So you all agree | :30:36. | :30:49. | |
that we should get involved. Do you think if that meant Assad staying in | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
power for a few extra months you would be happy with that? If Assad | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
stays in power, no problem in Syria would be solved. The war will | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
continue. Assad is actually the start of this problem, that he waged | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
a war against the people and he continues with that war until now. | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
Assad also is buying oil from Isis, helping the finance of Isis. | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
Yesterday the US Treasury department made sanctions against some of the | :31:26. | :31:36. | |
regime figures that they are financing Isis by buying oil from | :31:37. | :31:42. | |
them. Assad is a major cause of the humanitarian problem in Syria, as | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
well as the rise and expansion of Isis. The Syrian people themselves, | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
they cannot fight Isis. They are the boots on the ground actually. They | :31:52. | :31:58. | |
cannotifies Isis effectively unless they protect themselves and they are | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
also protected from the Assad bombing against them. OK, so let me | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
interrupt there. Assad has to go. You think Assad has to go. What | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
about Russia, Katia. Is Russia going to be able to sit down with Monze, | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
are and come to some kind of agreement, or not, on what you have | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
just heard? Before answering that question I would like to go back | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
briefly to your previous question. As I said, Russia would welcome | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
joining efforts with anyone who would like to fight against Isis. | :32:30. | :32:35. | |
Although Roisin assists that bombing other countries like, say, Syria and | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
Iraq should only be happening with the permission of the Government in | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
those countries. As you know, Russia is carrying out its campaign in | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
Syria after the invitation of the legitimate Syrian Government, Bashar | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
al-Assad, whereas the US is doing it without the permission of the | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
Government whatsoever. They would welcome only if they got an | :33:00. | :33:02. | |
agreement from the Syrian Government. As for Bashar al-Assad | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
staying in power, in contrast to what the West has been accusing | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
Russia of, supporting President Assad and trying to keep him in | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
power, Russia has been saying all along that it is not Russia's goal | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
to keep Bashar al-Assad in power. Russia has been saying it is up to | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
the Syrians to decide their own future. Like the previous speaker | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
was saying, there is a fight against Isis currently going on in Syria. | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
Just like President Putin said, combining efforts with those forces | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
who are fighting Isis on the ground is key to all those coalition | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
efforts. Right, everybody agrees, combining the forces is very | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
important, but it is whether you can agree on the terms on which you are | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
going to do it. Hassan, do you think the Vienna process can get these two | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
to agree enough that we get a joint Army, if you like? I don't think so, | :33:56. | :34:02. | |
and I think the disproportional focus on the Vienna talks and a | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
political process to deal with this situation in Damascus is in many | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
ways a waste of time. Because we are wasting so many opportunities of | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
doing things on the ground elsewhere in the country that could engineer a | :34:18. | :34:20. | |
situation... Sorry, who on the ground? Who is going to do it on the | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
ground if it is not the Syrian Government Army and the Free Syrian | :34:27. | :34:37. | |
Army? There are plenty of opportunities. I had a Skype call | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
with one of the commanders who was driven out of eastern Syria because | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
of Isis. Instead of going to hang out in Turkey or go as refugees | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
elsewhere outside the country, what are they doing now? They are | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
fighting Isis on the front lines in it lip, Aleppo and southern Syria. | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
These are the forces that you can work with. There are plenty of those | :35:03. | :35:07. | |
forces. OK, that's a different plan from the one Crispin Blunt was | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
telling us about. Monze, are, this conflict seemed to have been dogged | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
by the fact that there hasn't been agreement on who is the worst. Who | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
is the worst enemy for you, Assad or ice is? They are both committing | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
crimes against humanity. They are both committing war crimes. And they | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
are both killing the Syrian people and oppressing the Syrian people | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
every day. So for the Syrians they are both the enemies and think have | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
to be destroyed for the Syrian people. But the biggest fight the | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
Syrian people are having now is with Assad. Assad is attacking | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
everywhere, bombing the cities, bombing the villages. They are the | :35:55. | :36:01. | |
Iranian Revolutionary Guard and militia are helping on the ground. | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
The Russians are helping. By the way the Russians are not bombing Isis | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
but the moderate rebels. They are helping Assad. So this war, the war | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
that Assad is waging against the people is very oppressive on the | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
people much more than what Isis is doing. As for the enemies, they are | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
both enemies and they have to go. I'm so sorry, I'm afraid we are out | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
of time. I thank you all very much indeed. We are going to see how | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
complicated it is to get political agreement. | :36:38. | :36:39. | |
We've heard a lot of argument this evening. | :36:40. | :36:41. | |
But a reminder now of how the consequences of the suffering | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
A second charter plane full of vulnerable refugees | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
arrived today, this time in Newcastle. | :36:48. | :36:49. | |
David Cameron has offered 20,000 places over the next five years - | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
we are still early in the process of taking people in. | :36:53. | :36:54. | |
You may or may not know that Newsnight is following the fortunes | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
Katie Razzall went to Jordan to meet one of the families who | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
reached Newcastle today, and she's also caught up with another family | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
It's their first week in a strange many places to visit. New tastes, | :37:05. | :37:32. | |
new smells. For a family who fled Syria for Jordan and now have a new | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
home in Scotland. Tar-tan. Tartan. Having first met the family as they | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
prepared to leave Jordan, 000 they are on British soil, and here on the | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
Scottish streets what little English they know is being tested. Is it a | :37:50. | :38:03. | |
relief to be here? For now to protect them the Scottish council is | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
supporting the family won't let us film them at home. So we took them | :38:08. | :38:17. | |
on their first day trip to Glasgow. They want to record everything. A | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
family all too aware of their luck. Deemed vulnerable enough for | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
resettlement by UNHCR, Britain offered refuge. | :38:28. | :38:52. | |
Nourallah needs a jaw operation. It was shadow nerd a rocket attack on | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
their Syrian home. Laith and Bayhas are his nephews. Their father died | :39:01. | :39:08. | |
in Syria. This family's life won't begin properly until residency | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
papers come through. Then school, doctors appointments and language | :39:13. | :39:18. | |
classes will begin. What did you learn? Ship... Monkey. Crocodile. | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
But even a good day is tingeed with sadness. It is complicated but her | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
first children by her first marriage are stuck in Syria. | :39:31. | :39:43. | |
We took the family to a Glasgow institution, the ubiquitous | :39:44. | :39:51. | |
restaurant for Scottish fare, in line with their religious | :39:52. | :39:54. | |
traditions. Vegetarian haggis there. When you first arrived here, what | :39:55. | :40:05. | |
struck you? How does it compare with your old home in Jordan? Even in the | :40:06. | :40:19. | |
safety of the UK, the adult don't want to talk about Syrian politics, | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
about air strikes or regime change. Fearful for relatives still in | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
Syria. But I wanted to know how the Paris attacks and changing attitudes | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
to refugees affected them as they left Jordan. | :40:33. | :41:04. | |
When we spoke in Amman, I remember you said to me, probably you | :41:05. | :41:11. | |
wouldn't be able to go back to Syria and that Britain would be your new | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
home. First impressions, it is early days, but do you still feel that | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
this is a place you'll be able to call home now you're here? | :41:21. | :41:38. | |
Many Syrian refugees don't want to leave the Middle East. But five | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
years of war means resettlement is their only option. Like another | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
Syrian family, I met in Jordan, who arrived in the UK today. Marwan, the | :41:49. | :42:00. | |
head of the household, showed me around their Jordanian home. They | :42:01. | :42:12. | |
had so little, no money for medicine for Marwan's health problems, or to | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
pay for school. Goodbye... Goodbye. One boy... One boy. Nour is eight, | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
his sister is partially deaf, and she is 16. The boys, Omar and | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
Mohammed, they fled their home west of Damascus more than two years ago. | :42:34. | :43:23. | |
Despite it all, until recently they still believed they would go home. | :43:24. | :43:57. | |
They may never see Syria again. But as they left Jordan for Newcastle | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
this morning there was optimism too for a better future. We hope to meet | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
them again soon as they begin their new life. We will be staying in | :44:09. | :44:19. | |
touch with the families. Emily will be in the chair tomorrow, Black | :44:20. | :44:21. | |
Friday. Have a very good night. Good evening. After a mild day on | :44:22. | :44:35. | |
Thursday, Friday brings us a transition to much cooler conditions | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
from the north-west. We've got this active cold front pushing in | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
initially across Northern | :44:42. | :44:42. |