Browse content similar to 30/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Tonight, Britain stands on the brink of | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
military action in Syria - is it all down to splits in the Labour party? | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
As Jeremy Corbyn bows to a free vote for his MPs, | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
the numbers are mounting in support of David Cameron's call to arms. | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
As many as 100 Labour MPs could support strikes on Syria, it has | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
been a bruising episode four Labour. We'll be talking to | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
Labour's front bench - and a close advisor of Tony Blair | :00:33. | :00:33. | |
who took us into the Iraq war. The world is at the limits of | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
suicide - warns Pope Francis - as 150 countries meet in | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
Paris to slow down climate change. One man knows the planet | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
better than most. We ask David | :00:44. | :00:44. | |
Attenborough if world leaders are If we could | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
harness 1/5,000th part of the energy the sun sprays on the | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
earth we could provide all the energy requirements | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
of the entire human race. And meeting the muse of | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
Yves Saint Laurent, now putting his ?30 million collection of rare | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
books up for sale. I don't think Mr Corbyn has | :01:03. | :01:12. | |
a great career of mannequin. By an extraordinary convergence of | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
political weakness and electoral mathematics, this country now stands | :01:15. | :01:29. | |
on the brink of committing to war Jeremy Corbyn had gone into the | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
meeting of his Shadow Cabinet expecting them to back | :01:33. | :01:47. | |
his resistence to air strikes. He emerged - after pressure from his | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
front bench - promising his MPs a free vote. What happens next comes | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
down to a debate on Wednesday, which the prime minister has just tabled, | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
and the vote that will follow. But from all the signs tonight, it looks | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
as if the government could now have enough support from the opposition | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
benches to give the PM the mandate he needs. Tonight, we'll look at the | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
timetable for any future strikes, and whether the British public | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
supports the action. We'll also ask how the relationship | :02:09. | :02:10. | |
between the Labour leader, his cabinet and his supporters may have | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
inadvertently brought us to where we are tonight. | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
First up, here's Allegra Stratton. Today's Shadow Cabinet meeting is | :02:16. | :02:25. | |
perhaps the most important gathering held in the Palace of Westminster so | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
far this Parliament. Shadow Cabinet members told me they were on the | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
verge of resignation before it. The meeting would decide whether Britain | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
would strike Syria and also whether Syria would break Labour. In the | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
hour before the meeting the office but at a poll conducted over the | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
weekend that they said showed that 75% of Labour members who replied | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
oppose the idea of strikes on Syria. I imagine that in this meeting | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
Shadow Cabinet members will resist the opinion poll and its findings, | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
they think it's the opinion that should matter. Over the weekend | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's team, the heirs to Tony Benn, looked as if they would | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
dig in, force people to vote against as dogs and force a mass walk-out. | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
Long negotiations with deputy leader Tom Watson attempted to bring the | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
Labour leader back from the brink. We've just bumped into one of the | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
closest allies of Jeremy Corbyn. This morning they thought there | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
would be a free vote, now they say they are not social for three | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
reasons. Firstly over the weekend many MPs have been shocked by the | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
strength of feeling opposing striking Syria. The second, they say | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
many numbers have also been shocked by the behaviour, the disloyalty of | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
the parliamentary Labour Party. They feel the parliamentary Labour Party | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
should support the leader. And secondly Jeremy Corbyn has made a | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
life's work of opposing military action. There is a sense in which | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
they say, if you cannot oppose this, what is the point of him. Moments | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
later, the decision, a free vote after all. It is said Jeremy Corbyn | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
offered a free vote of his own free will although it is said that he | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
considered whipping a party to oppose ever strikes. It seems the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
party looks double headed, the leader saying one thing and the | :04:09. | :04:12. | |
Shadow Foreign Secretary another. The fact is that there are different | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
views on this within the Shadow Cabinet. Different views on this in | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
the parliamentary party and probably different views within the public as | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
well. Of course I understand what you are saying but it is a | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
reflection of where we are with this debate. Lunch might even for those | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
opposed to strike there was an happiness. I have never seen or | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
heard anything like this before. The rule book says the decision on how | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
and whether to whip is taken by the Shadow Cabinet. About is final. And | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
for me as an MP is the web that matters, whether we have one or not. | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
Fine if we have the views of 70,000 Labour Party members but you cannot | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
make a policy like that on the hoof. It's the end of a long and tiring | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
day and write know the Labour Party is meeting up those stairs and | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
around the corner in their weekly meeting. The party is battered | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
tonight. Also bent in two. The Shadow Foreign Secretary will make | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
one case from the dispatch box, the Labour leader another. It is not as | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
bad as it might have been. The party could have been dealing with mass | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
resignations. What we had tonight was considered debate about Syria, | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
which is what we should have been doing for the last four days. I feel | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
this could have been handled a hell of a lot better. David Lambie, how | :05:31. | :05:38. | |
was the meeting for you? Say what you really think! It was a very | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
heated meeting. I found it deeply unfortunate that we as a party spent | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
the weekend terribly internal about ourselves and not directed at this | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
very serious decision. Stopping military action is an article of | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
faith for Jeremy Corbyn. On this, he could have wept Labour, yet he shows | :06:03. | :06:13. | |
-- he chose not to. It seems that Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party now | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
looks unlikely to stop David Cameron. | :06:17. | :06:17. | |
Joining me now, Shadow Work and Pensions Secretary Owen Smith | :06:18. | :06:19. | |
who was in that Shadow Cabinet meeting for much of the afternoon. | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
How many hours? The best part of two hours. | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
You'll be voting against air strikes? | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
Yes, Emily. I thought very carefully about this. I was someone who might | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
have been persuaded by the Prime Minister and I did not speak last | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
week, and I chose to think and talk to people over the weekend, as I | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
have done in recent months, and I've come to the conclusion that the | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
Prime Minister has, for me, for this MP, not made the case compellingly | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
enough, either that limited bombing action, which is what he proposes, | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
will assist in defeating Isil. I think we can all agree that that is | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
what we ought to be aiming for. All achieve beyond that, lasting | :07:04. | :07:13. | |
political resolution in Syria... You support Jeremy Corbyn on this? I do. | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
I think the right thing is to do what he did do, come to the Shadow | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
Cabinet, recognising the very real, sincerely held, profound | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
differences... You know that wasn't the case. I don't know that, you | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
asserted that in the introduction, all I know is that Jeremy came to | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
the Shadow Cabinet today and said clearly, at the outset, that he was | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
proposing that we have a free vote on this issue. I think it is the | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
right thing to do. Reflecting both the sincerely held disagreements | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
within the Labour Party but also reflective of the country. The | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
people that I talk to our conflicted about this. They don't know what is | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
necessarily the right thing to do. I think that if they had a clear | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
understanding, as we do, of how limited proposal is coming from the | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Prime Minister, David Cameron is the person who should be questioned here | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
tonight. It is he who has failed to... He ought to come on and | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
explain... We've tried to cut the mathematics. It is all rough at this | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
stage before Wednesday. It sounds as if we will be committing to a | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
strikes, doesn't it, after that vote? The government has a majority | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
of 12. It isn't just the government majority, it is the number of Labour | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
MPs, between 60 and 100, a big gap but that would easily give him the | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
mandate to do that. I am sure that there are a number of my colleagues, | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
I haven't asked them, I am not sure of the absolute total but a lot of | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
them will have thought just as carefully as I have about this, as | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
has Hilary Benn and others who are convinced. Will you try to change | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
their mind? What is the position now? Is it up to you and Jeremy | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
Corbyn and others who do not agree with air strikes to go to your | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
fellow MPs and make the case for them not to vote? No, we decided as | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
a party, as a Shadow Cabinet, that they should be a free vote. So it is | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
for members, based on their beliefs, to make a decision. Lunch Mac so the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
noes are not the party line? We don't have a party line. We've | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
decided there is disagreement within the Labour Party as to whether we | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
should be supporting this particular proposal. We need to differentiate | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
between the notion of our getting involved militarily in Syria at all | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
at some point, and the proposal that is on the table from the Prime | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
Minister. I think it is a false dichotomy to say there is this | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
binary choice. Suppose I am a vote in Oldham this week and trying to | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
work out what Labour foreign policy is, are they anti-intervention or | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
not -- if I am a voter? What would you tell me is your policy? That we | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
are an extremely serious political party that has thoughtfully | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
seriously about the most important choice that we could make. You have | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
said seriously twice in one sentence, that means you are torn to | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
pieces over this. Should recommit our military to engagement overseas | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
with the inevitable loss of life that will follow? I haven't | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
carefully at what David Cameron proposes. He says his objective is | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
to defeat Isil. I agree. That should be had. You cannot say what your | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
policy is on intervention because Jeremy Corbyn will say one thing and | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
Hilary Benn, who should be closest to him on this issue, will say | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
another. Straightforwardly, the most important thing is that we get the | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
right decision for the country. But we analyse what is placed before us | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
by the Prime Minister on its merits. And we come to a conclusion as | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
individual MPs, if we had been able to come to agreement as a party that | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
would have been better, I think. We clearly could not do that. If he's | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
right and he got 75% of the reply saying that we don't want you to go | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
to war in Syria, what was the point of that if he then a free vote? | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
Jeremy did what he always said he would, reach out to party members | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
and engage them in a more inclusive debate about policy. Nothing wrong | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
with that. He could have got a result that was not in accordance | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
with his views. I am not sure what my CLP would think if all members's | :11:43. | :11:49. | |
views were tested. What I am certain about is, for me, when I have looked | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
at the case but by the Prime Minister, I am not convinced that we | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
will make Britain a safer place, not convinced that we were faced in the | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
resolution... Laughing in the face of your supporters to an extent | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
because, like him or loathe him, you understand that Jeremy Corbyn is a | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
man of principle. We know he is in favour of stop the War. He doesn't | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
like intervention, and yet he hasn't shown leadership, he's bottled it. | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
We are all men and women of principle. On this issue he's | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
bottled it. He could have said, I believe in this strongly, I lead the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
party, my supporters have told me that they backed me and I am taking | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
that to Parliament. Why didn't he? Because he's seriously reflecting on | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
the fact that there isn't an agreed position within the party. There are | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
different views held sincerely by different members across the party | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
and that is why the sensible thing for us to do is have a free vote. I | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
come back to this substantive issue. That is what we ought to be baked | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
tonight, it isn't about the Labour Party or Jeremy Corbyn and certainly | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
not about individual MPs -- that's what we ought to debate. It is about | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
if the right thing to do is to engage in limited bombing, mainly | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
ten planes from the UK, adding to the two and half thousand, 3000 | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
strikes that have been administered by the Americans and the French. The | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
question is, well that haste in the end of Isil and Assyrian resolution? | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
I'm not convinced that is the case. - and a Syrian resolution. I think | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
we should think much more deeply about long-term strategy is a | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
western power in the Middle East. Thank you. That is exactly where we | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
are taking the debate. David Cameron promised along and full debate in | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
the House of Commons on Wednesday, he said it was the right thing to do | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
and would be in the interests of the country to keep us safe. He was | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
asked about that figure of 70,000 moderate troops on the ground in | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
Syria, uncertain at this stage, he replied that they would be ready. | :13:58. | :14:13. | |
Me. The Iraqi Army and the Kurdish peshmerga forces. The Syrian | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
situation is more complicated but there are some ground troops in | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
terms of the free Syrian Army and other troops that are able to take | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
action against Isil. What happens now for the Government? | :14:24. | :14:34. | |
The debate and the vote on veterans, people are talking in Government | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
about anything, as you said, I'm hearing similar things, 60 to 100 | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
Labour dissidents. That gives David Cameron what he wanted, for it not | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
to be a whipped thing, a party political division over this issue, | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
and secondly a substantial majority potentially for strikes. The RAF I'm | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
told will pretty much immediately probably that night start flying | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
reconnaissance over targets. It's possible, what they call dynamic | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
targeting, the J tack, the air controller, may give them a target | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
that Knight and they may well start. Even if they don't it is only likely | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
to be a day or two before they hit targets in Syria. So they can get | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
ready that quickly can they? They are already flying against targets | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
in Iraq and they can do that. Hearing your early discussion, this | :15:23. | :15:26. | |
perception that the UK can't bring that many aircraft to the fight. | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
They are determined to increase the number. There's pretty limited | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
leeway in the RAF on that, and what I've been hearing is that the | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
current 8 tornadoes in Akrotiri will be supplemented. Of course they | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
can't just move these eight planes around between Iraq and Syria. | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
People will say you are shifting the same deck chairs on the deck. They | :15:50. | :15:57. | |
are going to send two more Tornadoes and six Typhoon aircraft. They will | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
have relatively quickly in Akrotiri up to 16 jets to carry out air | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
strikes against IS targets in those countries. They are trying to | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
increase the level of apprenticeship military activity. When you factor | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
in as well defensive UK airspace, that's pretty much it. That's pretty | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
much the whole Royal Air Force committed. Mark, thank you. | :16:18. | :16:20. | |
Joining me now, Tony Blair's former chief of staff, Jonathan Powell, | :16:21. | :16:22. | |
who's written extensively on the question | :16:23. | :16:24. | |
His latest book is Talking to Terrorists. | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
Nice of you to come in. When you listened to Mark laying it out there | :16:30. | :16:37. | |
in stark terms, it feel it is like the country is being readied for war | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
and I guess you will say that this is the other equation of what Iraq | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
has started I don't think there can be a logical idea about bombing | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
Iraq... But you recognise this is a big step, this needed to be a | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
convincing argument for all the reasons we understand about it not | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
being an invitation of a sovereign territory? I don't think this is the | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
start of a big war. I don't think it is seen as such a big step. It is | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
doing what Isil do, which is not regarding the border. There are | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
bigger questions that come later, as bombing is necessary but in the | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
sufficient, it is necessary to help the Kurds for example to hang on to | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
Kobane in Syria and to capture Sinjar. Do you think David Cameron | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
should have said, I'm pretty sure of this, we are doing it already? He | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
should have had a vote and it looks like he is able to win it now. | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
Bombing is sufficient, is not sufficient, it is necessary but | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
won't some of the problem. If our aim is to degrade and destroy Isil | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
we are going to have to do a lot more than simply bomb them. 70,000, | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
we are thinking of that now as the 45 minute figure. Does I ring true | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
from what you know of these troops? I think there are 70,000 fighters in | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
Syria but at the moment they are fighting Assad and they don't have | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
any intention of fighting Daesh or Isil. You can't leave it to the Shia | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
militias from Baghdad, so who is going to do this fighting? That's | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
the question that needs to be answered. And it is not going to | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
make us safer is it? You can't realistically that Britain at home | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
becomes a safer country? It does if we deal with Isil. Just as they were | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
this Paris, you can't ignore it. 9/11 came out of Afghanistan. You | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
can't deal with them here, you have to deal with them at the root. It | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
seems a simple equation there, a simple question for you but it's not | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
one for the Labour Party at the moment. Do you think part of this | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
self flagellation, a large part, is precisely because of the Iraq war? | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
Obviously there's a hangover from the Iraq war, just as there there | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
was before from previous war. Black Hawk Down in some Aaliyah stopped | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
people intervening in Kosovo. When you say rational, people will say in | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
foreign policy terms that was the worst decision any leader has made | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
since Suez? You can say that if you want, but you don't want to be hung | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
over by the last decision. You don't want to lash out in the heat of | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
emotion. You want to make a cool, rational decision. I guess what I'm | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
asking, is it right that we have questioning leaders now? Do you | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
admire Mr Corbyn for saying hang on everyone let's make sure that we | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
know what we are going into? Or do you see a Labour Party in pieces? It | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
is absolutely right that everyone should ask questions. We need a | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
serious military strategy and political strategy. As I say, | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
bombing makes sense but you need to have ground forces if you are going | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
take territory. Are there ground forces? I don't know whose ground | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
forces they are going to be. You can't do it without ground forces. | :20:02. | :20:04. | |
And you need a political strategy dealing with the bereavances of the | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
Sunnis, who've been disenfranchised in Iraq and Syria. And talking to | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
them just as we talk to the IRA, the PLO and others in the past. Where do | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
you think ground forces need to come from? You cannot see a UK Prime | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
Minister now putting in British ground troops, can you? That's what | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
people are going to have to think about. This is a coalition, not just | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
Britain. We are going to have to put western forces in, but it is a | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
coalition, not something that Britain can decide itself. And you | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
believe Britain needs to communicate with terrorists and get that | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
dialogue going. Is Isis on the cards for that? I would have thought so. | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
Every time we meet a new terrorist group, we say we'll never to them | :20:51. | :20:59. | |
and defeat them... Even an apocalyptic death cult? | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
Unfortunately they know they they can get our attention by killing | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
people in horrific ways. Thank you. I know you are going to stay with | :21:08. | :21:09. | |
us. So has the lead up to what is | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
increasingly looking like a move to military action been overshadowed | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
by party political spilts? Tonight, Jeremy Corbyn claimed | :21:19. | :21:20. | |
the debate was running away from David Cameron | :21:21. | :21:22. | |
and his case was falling apart. Rachel Sylvester of the Times, | :21:23. | :21:24. | |
and Clive Lewis MP and Director of Momentum - the Campaign group | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
that supports Jeremy Corbyn - are Just for the record I advise some of | :21:28. | :21:38. | |
the people who work for them. Director is too posh a title I'm not | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
a chair. For the record, keep it straight. | :21:44. | :21:46. | |
Rachel - talk us through what Downing Street | :21:47. | :21:48. | |
Has the battle run away with David Cameron? I think they'll be feeling | :21:49. | :21:58. | |
rerelieved. They said they wouldn't hold a vote unless they were pretty | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
sure of winning it. The vote has gone ahead and that David Cameron | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
has had to concede a free vote, it makes it much more likely that air | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
strikes will go ahead. This was one issue on which the Labour | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
opposition, which has been pretty powerless since the election had | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
some power. They had the ability to determine the result in Parliament. | :22:23. | :22:24. | |
What's happened today is significant. But they've given that | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
power away. Isn't that frustrating for the grass roots? I think it is a | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
matter of conscience. I think when you listen to the so-called grass | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
roots, they would have seen that many MPs have agonised over this and | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
thought over it. Ny MPs have agonised over this and thought over | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
it. I look back - I wasn't there obviously, I look back to the Iraq | :22:46. | :22:51. | |
war where we were whipped and the Libya where we were whipped and they | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
didn't end well. This gives MPs the chance to analyse and come to a | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
conclusion how we are going to vote. I know we laugh at the term new | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
politics, but I think we are approaching it not a more mature way | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
and I think many people out there in the country would like to see us | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
acting in that way. Is that something you would say, we don't | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
need leadership per se, we like new politics and like something not | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
whipped like Iraq? There'll be a bunch of people in the country | :23:23. | :23:31. | |
disenfranchised unless very have an opposition that's peeking for them. | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
And if you have the Foreign Secretary and the leader in | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
different positions how are the public to know if air strikes would | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
go ahead. They are not behaving like a credible alternative Government. I | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
was looking at the newspapers as I came in and how much was devoted to | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
the internal machinations. I've been asked on five programmes to talk | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
about Syria, and on each one I have ended up talking about the Labour | :24:04. | :24:05. | |
Party. I understand it is an interesting concept. On Wednesday | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
when we know what the vote is we'll be in a position where we can talk | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
directly about Syria instead of hypothesising. What I would like to | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
see and what the media should be doing, we should be questioning | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
David Cameron. We are on the brink, potentially, of sending an extra six | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
planes, 14 planes into Syria, to bomb. As we speak now, if that vote | :24:29. | :24:34. | |
goes through, there'll be women and children, potentially, who will be | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
dying because of that decision. That's not something as an MP I feel | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
particularly happy being whipped on. It is a matter of conscience. For | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
that reason, if that alone, wouldn't it have been better to see a very | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
strong message to went right through the party saying we are anti-this | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
and we are now going to be the party that holds David Cameron to account? | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
You can't be that party any more. I think most people know, we've all | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
said it is a matter of conscience. Before it was mentioned about how we | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
still have a so-called hang-up. The echoes of Iraq echo through our | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
party. Many MPs are affected by that. They listen to that. It is | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
right and proper. Rachel, is this sustainable? Do you think this is | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
the new politics, this is how opposition is working now, this is a | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
pretty important decision. Does it seem to be a position they can hold | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
on to? What isn't sustainable is the fact you've got a huge chunk of the | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
parliamentary Labour Party at odds with their leader. I think this | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
isn't just to do with Syria. It is to do with the fact that the MPs | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
feel they have a mandate from their constituents and the leader feels he | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
has a mandate from his members. There's a total clash of not just | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
ideaologists but the principle obvious politics. The MPs wants to | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
win the election and they want to adopt policies which reach out to | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
people beyond the Labour tribe. What they feel the Corbynistas want to | :25:57. | :26:08. | |
appeal within the tribe... As an MP yes I want to win election 2020 but | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
I want to make the right cities when it come tolls potentially send our | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
forces into warfare, potentially putting themselves at risk and kill | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
women and children. What does momentum do? Does it lobby the MPs | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
had, take the views of supporters to MPs and try and hold them to a "no" | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
vote? I think if you look at what Momentum does, it is not one central | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
organisation which comes out with a line. It is a grass roots | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
organisation made up of thousands of Labour Party members. I think as an | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
MP I expect to be lobbied by constituents, by party members, | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
members of Momentum, people from Progress and the Fabians, I'm an MP. | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
What I don't expect is abuse. I think what Jeremy Corbyn has said, | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
he's given a free vote. Respect that. Is this the Labour Party that | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
you recognise? No, I think there's a problem in this country when we | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
don't have a strong opposition. As long as we are talking about | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
ourselves as the party instead of the issues, and the problem Clive | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
talks about is what we are going to have. Whose fault is that It is not | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
sustainable for a long period of time. I don't see how you can keep | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
this together. It is a clash of membership who voted for him and MPs | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
who never accepted that. Thank you all very much indeed. | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
Recent history is littered with the places - Copenhagen, Lima, | :27:38. | :27:39. | |
Bali - that gave their names to the mission of stalling climate | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
Kyoto was the last - some would say limited success - | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
So to say there's a lot riding on Paris this week - | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
after all the trauma the city has been through - is no exaggeration. | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
Today world leaders from more than 150 countries descended on Cop21 - | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
the Climate change summit whose mission is to pull things back | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
One man who knows the planet better than most is | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
He's been at the forefront of the Apollo program - a mission to | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
speed up the technology needed for renewable - solar - energy - to make | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
I talked to him this afternoon from Paris. | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
I think the statement made by President Obama just now has really | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
It doesn't go quite as far as some of us might wish, | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
but it is certainly a major step down the road. | :28:27. | :28:28. | |
Do you agree with India's Prime Minister Modi, who has asked | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
for climate justice, that curious phrase, but he's basically saying | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
that those countries that have developed, that have become powerful | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
on the back of the use of fossil fuels should now give more? | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
Yes, but President Obama's statement, and certainly the global | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
Apollo programme, which I'm hoping to support, provides exactly that. | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
What we're trying to do is to get the nations together to do | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
the necessary research to get the production, transmission and storage | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
of energy from renewable resources cheaper than coal so that those | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
nations which may be developed or less developed that are getting | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
their material from coal will now decide to move to | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
a different source of energy which will be cheaper than the coal on | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
You would say therefore there is no shortage of energy on earth? | :29:20. | :29:30. | |
There is no shortage of energy from the Sun. | :29:31. | :29:32. | |
If we could harness a one 5,000th part of | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
the energy that the Sun sprays upon the earth every 24 hours, we could | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
provide all the energy requirements of the entire human race. | :29:41. | :29:43. | |
We are suggesting you would get not even that much, | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
but that's what we are suggesting that we should get straight from | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
Why do you think, given everything that science has | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
Because it is easier to burn a piece of coal. | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
We've solved the major ones of getting the energy | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
What we haven't solved so far is getting it cheaper. | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
That's what we need to do, so that's cheaper than coal. | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
At the moment anybody can go out and dig a piece of coal and light | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
But we can't afford to do that any more. | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
John Kerry made that statement and said whatever happens wouldn't | :30:24. | :30:25. | |
I believe that when you look at Obama's statement the will is there | :30:26. | :30:37. | |
You can write all sorts of words on paper, but in the end if it's good | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
people of good heart and goodwill, that's what get things done. | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
So it doesn't matter if it won't have a legal status? | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
Of course it would be nice if we had a legal status, but we hope | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
that people will abide by these sentiments, which have been stated | :30:58. | :31:05. | |
very clearly by the President and which I believe are being stated | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
What would make you punch the air at the end of this summit and say yes, | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
What are the words you want to hear from whom? | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
If Obama had added a target date and actually also agreed a road map, a | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
committee that was going to oversee worldwide scientific research to | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
identify the problems in the chain and to sort out who's going to deal | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
with them, that would have been the cherry on the cake. | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
Sir David, thank you very much indeed. | :31:38. | :31:39. | |
The Conservative Party bullying scandal that forced former | :31:40. | :31:48. | |
chairman Grant Shapps to quit his ministerial post over the weekend | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
The party has announced that a law firm will run their investigation | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
There had been claims that their own internal inquiry, launched | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
after a series of complaints were made about former aide Mark Clarke, | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
Mark Clarke, who has already been expelled from the Conservative Party | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
for life, categorically denies a string of bullying and blackmail | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
Those calling for a more independent inquiry included Ray Johnson - | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
he's the father of Elliott Johnson who killed himself after previously | :32:15. | :32:16. | |
Well, James Clayton, who's been following this story | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
This is quite a momentous day for the Conservative Party. Until last | :32:21. | :32:34. | |
week, Edward Legard was heading this inquiry. He is a barrister and | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
perhaps more importantly a former Conservative Party candidate. A lot | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
of MPs I've spoken to have said, how can you have an independent inquiry | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
when it is run by a conservative. That was not a concern David Cameron | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
shared. This is a B Hind me from David Cameron to Ray Johnson, the | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
father of Elliott Johnson. -- this is a letter, behind me. In the T he | :33:03. | :33:10. | |
supports the inquiry and says that they have under way an internal | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
investigation with a disciplinary panel that will be headed by Edward | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
Legard. That entire inquiry has today been given to Clifford Chance. | :33:20. | :33:28. | |
What has changed? A lot of pressure on Grant Shapps and on Lord | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
Feldman, the current chairman. Grant Shapps resigned at the weekend, as | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
we know, this was meant to alleviate some of the pressure on Lord | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
Feldman. It has almost done the opposite. I have spoken to number | :33:42. | :33:49. | |
ten Downing St and they are in full Operation Save Lord Feldman mode. | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
They say that Lord Feldman did not know who Mark Clarke was and didn't | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
know of any bullying before 2015. They say that this independent | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
inquiry is a result of people like Ray Johnson who had called for it. | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
There is another strategy at play here. It's this. Lord Feldman is | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
very close friend of David Cameron's and the Tory party has | :34:12. | :34:14. | |
decided they are not going to let this one go. They are to allow Grant | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
Shapps to leave because he wasn't exactly flavour of the month and | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
they are happy to give ground on and on the inquiry but they don't want | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
Lord Feldman to go. We will have to see in the next couple of weeks if | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
that strategy works. Mark Clarke denies all allegations. Yes Mackie | :34:34. | :34:41. | |
has denied all allegations of bullying. Thank you, James. | :34:42. | :34:44. | |
Fashion is territory into which Newsnight rarely forays. | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
But when it does, it does it in style. | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
The former lover of the late Yves Saint Laurent has decided to | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
sell the most priceless library in private hands - estimated to be | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
They're all to go under the hammer at Sotheby's in Paris, | :34:55. | :34:57. | |
Pierre Berge, once the manager of the house of Yves Saint Laurent, | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
impossibly rare books and manuscripts by Shakespeare, | :35:02. | :35:04. | |
Dante, Flaubert, the Marquis de Sade and many others. | :35:05. | :35:06. | |
It was all too much for Stephen Smith. | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
He dressed the most beautiful women in the world. | :35:10. | :35:19. | |
And that bought him the most priceless library in the world. | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
Including a volume of St Augustine's Confessions from 1470. | :35:25. | :35:34. | |
What was his famous saying, "Lord, please give me celibacy, | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
Not yet, that is the important thing, not yet. | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
Pierre Berge was the unflappable maitre d' | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
He would sketch all the time, and I was a manager. | :35:49. | :36:07. | |
And nobody came to the field of the other. | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
You didn't interfere with each other's work? | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
Did you ever have to say, come on, Yves, I need those drawings | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
For me I think the fashion designer or painter or writer, they have to | :36:20. | :36:32. | |
You and Yves Saint Laurent collected art and houses, but this was your | :36:33. | :36:48. | |
Yves was born with a nervous breakdown. | :36:49. | :37:02. | |
He was born with a nervous breakdown? | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
He was born with a nervous breakdown. | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
It's a joke, but it's not really a joke. | :37:10. | :37:16. | |
But you know, there are fashion designers who are | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
unhappy and fashion designers who are very happy. | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
Fashion is not an art, but fashion needs an artist to exist. | :37:27. | :37:40. | |
It's a strange combination, but I suppose you understand it. | :37:41. | :37:42. | |
Was Yves Saint Laurent an artist in that sense? | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
Yves Saint Laurent absolutely was an artist. | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
According to Berge, the House of Yves Saint Laurent took fashion | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
But now he says the industry has lost a sense | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
For me the fashion is to serve the woman, and not the woman to | :38:02. | :38:13. | |
You can see the wrong way all the time today. | :38:14. | :38:33. | |
Yves wrote one day, if fashion is only for rich women, it is very sad. | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
What do you make of people like our own dear Victoria Beckham and Kate | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
I send my best wishes, but fashion, believe me, is a very hard job. | :38:41. | :39:04. | |
It's not a woman's distraction, like to collect horses or dogs. | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
And there's your phone, intruding on your time. | :39:10. | :39:18. | |
For a man from the rag trade, Berge is very well connected, | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
Why not, we can call him later to see what he's doing. | :39:24. | :39:32. | |
Do you have his number in your phone? | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
We asked Monsieur Berge to run his tape measure over the British | :39:35. | :39:40. | |
Do you like his look, what do you think? | :39:41. | :39:51. | |
What I don't like with your Prime Minister, | :39:52. | :40:03. | |
is the distance he keeps with Europe. | :40:04. | :40:05. | |
Now, I don't know if you've come across this gentleman yet. | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
He seems a little bit full of dreams. | :40:10. | :40:19. | |
It is necessary to give dreams to people. | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
I don't think Mr Corbyn has a great carriere of mannequin. | :40:27. | :40:44. | |
That is all we have time fors we will be back tomorrow. Good night | :40:45. | :41:07. | |
from all of us. | :41:08. | :41:11. |