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Throughout Britain's history, we've been a sovereign nation. | :00:00. | :00:17. | |
So do we want to take control back, or are we happy to share it? | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
It's a special programme tonight on the EU, sovereignty and power. | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
We'll visit this place, the sovereign principality | :00:29. | :00:30. | |
of Sealand, to ask if it's better to be a small nation, | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
with more direct control over your own affairs. | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
We are a thorn in the side of the British government, I believe. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
They have try to control us in the past, unsuccessfully. | :00:45. | :00:46. | |
But absolutely, it is not lawless, here. | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
It is common-sense law, what you have. | :00:49. | :00:49. | |
make the law, not because anybody else tells you? | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
We'll ask our guests just how much of our lives Brussels controls, | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
and we'll see how many of our laws come from the EU. | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
This is the 1972 European Communities Act. | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
This is it, the act that took us into the European Economic | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
We'll ask this Cabinet minister and this former Commissioner | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
if Brexit would give us more power back over our lives, | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
or just lose influence over the rest of Europe? | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
MUSIC: "500 Miles (I'm Gonna Be)" - The Proclaimers. | :01:21. | :01:29. | |
# Forced on King John as he made off with the revenue. | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
Does our culture of Magna Carta and liberty make it particularly | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
hard for us to ever settle down in a bigger continental club? | :01:38. | :01:47. | |
Good evening, it's more crowded than usual in here this evening - | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
It's the first of six, in fact, over the next two months, | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
each devoted to one big issue in the referendum campaign. | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
And we are live blogging the each one of the website with extra | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
background and analysis. Our goal in these programmes | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
is to help you make up We'll look at the economy, security, | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
migration, to name a few. But we picked perhaps the hardest | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
one to start with: The word sovereign can refer | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
to a king or queen, a gold coin or a holiday company, | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
but for our purposes tonight, Is this country ruled | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
by those we elect here, Most pertinently, can | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
we kick out the authorities With me here, Lord Mandelson | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
and Chris Grayling, for the In and Out sides | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
of the argument. A panel of people | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
with expert knowledge We have a group of undecideds | :02:51. | :02:51. | |
here selected for us by the pollsters Ipsos Mori | :02:52. | :03:07. | |
and, these poor souls, with us for each of our specials | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
throughout the campaign. all about people like them - | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
as the referendum will likely be lost or won by the people | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
who could swing either way. I don't know how important you think | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
sovereignty is that I think you think it is central to the | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
referendum issue. I think it is vital, it is how we make laws, raise | :03:33. | :03:40. | |
taxes, who governs our waters. It is a key issue. Everything derives from | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
that? Lewis, I think you are someone who was not so taken with the issue. | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
I think it was a topic that was least necessary for me to know | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
because it is probably the hardest to pitch post-referendum. I will do | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
something I should not do, show your hands. I will give you a choice, how | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
many would say... Sovereignty is the most important issue, how many would | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
say the economy? How many would put sovereignty above the economy as an | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
issue? And how many would put the economy above sovereignty? OK, we | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
will see whether by the end of the programme you are persuaded | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
sovereignty is important. Angela, I am glad I picked you to start with. | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
OK, before we get stuck into discussion in here, | :04:37. | :04:38. | |
We wanted to start you off with some sovereignty basics. | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
How might you look at the issue of what powers of self-determination | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
we'd gain by leaving the EU, and what we'd possibly | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
The case against the EU is simple - we should decide our laws, | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
not subcontract them to a remote authority overseas. | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
The case for the EU, was put by a former President | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
"In the age of globalisation, pooled sovereignty means more power, | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
I've been giving a bit of thought to sovereignty and power. | :05:05. | :05:33. | |
It is not a country you have probably visited. | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
This is Sealand, a self-proclaimed micro-nation a few miles | :05:37. | :05:46. | |
It is an old Second World War anti-aircraft | :05:47. | :05:55. | |
It was outside territorial waters when claimed by | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
They declared it a sovereign principality almost 50 | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
There is not much to do here - you can enjoy the views, and | :06:07. | :06:16. | |
ponder on the meaning of what it is to be sovereign. | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
It was seized by a man called Paddy Roy Bates. | :06:20. | :06:21. | |
It is our frontier, it is our small slice of freedom in | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
We are a thorn in the side of the British Government, I believe, | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
because they have tried to control us in the past, unsuccessfully. | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
But absolutely it is not lawless here. | :06:39. | :06:39. | |
But it is up to you that you make the law, not | :06:40. | :06:45. | |
because anyone else tells you to make the law. | :06:46. | :06:47. | |
This is an extreme example of one sovereignty | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
They have sovereignty here, but not much else. | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
This is what some on the Remain side of the argument | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
think Britain would be like if we left the EU. | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
We would get our sovereignty back, but we would be an | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
irrelevant outpost in the middle of the North Sea. | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
You can be king of a castle, but only if it is a very | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
Obviously this is a very extreme and ludicrous way of | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
framing the sovereignty debate, but it does | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
perhaps illustrate the | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
potential dilemma between sovereignty and influence. | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
If we leave the EU, we stop others interfering in our lives, but we can | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
We gain power back over our own affairs, but we lose influence over | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
Lest this all sounds a bit far-flung, go from the metallic hulk | :07:38. | :07:50. | |
It provides an example of how our sovereignty is lost. | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
We most definitely can't help it as you | :07:59. | :08:05. | |
might want, as we have signed up to EU rules that restrict us bailing | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
Vicky Pryce was chief economist at the | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
Business Department and is a keen supporter of the Remain side. | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
If you are looking at it from an economic | :08:22. | :08:23. | |
perspective and business perspective, would you want us to | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
have a level playing field with rules you understand and you could | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
And you don't get all sorts of barriers there | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
For that to happen you have to accept | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
rules and regulations that apply for everybody, | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
so you give up some of | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
your sovereignty because you choose to do so, | :08:40. | :08:40. | |
because it makes a lot of | :08:41. | :08:42. | |
For EU supporters, sovereignty is a two-way street. | :08:43. | :08:51. | |
We helped our car industry after the financial crash with a | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
scrappage scheme, subsidising new cars turned in for old ones. | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
We were not allowed to insist on the new | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
cars being British, of course, but other countries could not favour | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
Other countries had scrappage schemes at the same time, | :09:07. | :09:15. | |
in fact we imitated some of the ones already in existence elsewhere. | :09:16. | :09:22. | |
they were buying loads of our cars, so you could not say you should only | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
buy UK-made cars when in fact we were happy to sell them to others | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
who were buying them through their own scrappage scheme. | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
So for example of our government wanted to subsidise a | :09:34. | :09:41. | |
Under the EU state aid rules, the Austrians | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
What on earth has it got to do with them? | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
John Redwood is on the Out side of the debate. | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
We have lost the right to govern ourselves. | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
I think the British people and their Parliament should | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
whether they should subsidise a particular way of | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
generating power, and that is something | :10:05. | :10:06. | |
normal country, the Parliament decides on the advice of people and | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
it can become a topic for throwing them out | :10:11. | :10:19. | |
Once you are in the European Union you have to ask the permission | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
of the others or indeed you may do something | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
which the others decide is | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
illegal and the court will often back the others | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
On Sealand, of course, there is not much of an energy industry and not | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
Then others do not give much to Sealand. | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
It seems to me we have a | :10:48. | :10:48. | |
Do we want to stop making compromises for the sake of others, | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
at the possible cost of them no longer compromising for the sake of | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
Of course it would be nice if we did not have to make a choice. | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
Boris Johnson said when it comes to cake, | :11:01. | :11:02. | |
he is pro-having it and pro-eating it. | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
Could we stay in the EU and have | :11:05. | :11:06. | |
We are not the first country to grapple with this. | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
There is a long EU history of argument over nations having vetoes | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
over the bits they do not like and it was led by | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
General De Gaulle, who returned to power | :11:21. | :11:30. | |
having been as it were in | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
exile, and he did not like what had been done. | :11:34. | :11:35. | |
Under the treaty, which had been negotiated by his | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
predecessors, there was to be a gradual increase in the use of | :11:39. | :11:50. | |
majority voting so that one member state could not block | :11:51. | :11:52. | |
particular measures, especially in agriculture | :11:53. | :11:54. | |
and De Gaulle decided he would try to stop it. | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
And his way of stopping it | :11:57. | :11:57. | |
was to withdraw the French from all meetings. | :11:58. | :11:59. | |
The French left an empty chair and for about six months from | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
the middle of '65 to '66, the European community | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
The veto gives each nation more power but | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
makes the community of nations harder to govern. | :12:10. | :12:11. | |
The others did not want to give the French veto on | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
I can't even say agreement was reached on what became | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
known as the Luxembourg compromise, because it was a unilateral | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
statement by the French that became known as the Luxembourg compromise | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
in which the French said if a member state invokes an important national | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
interest on a subject then discussion should continue until a | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
It was a classic Euro fudge and it eventually | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
lapsed, as John Redwood found when he was a British minister. | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
I agreed with the French view then and | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
thought the Luxembourg compromise was necessary, | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
but of course it did not work. | :12:54. | :12:54. | |
It is a warning to people, do not trust them. | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
We were told for years we may have signed nasty | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
looking treaties, but don't worry, if something important came along | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
you could use the Luxembourg compromise and you would get your | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
Of course we did not use it and over the years of non-use it | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
gradually lapsed and I remember on a couple | :13:12. | :13:13. | |
of occasions saying to the | :13:14. | :13:15. | |
government, maybe this is an occasion when we need | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
to use the Luxembourg compromise and the official | :13:18. | :13:19. | |
nobody wanted to go near it because it was row territory | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
And one day you woke up and discovered that it was no | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
The truth is there are advantages to being a small nation, | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
Not having a veto, but not needing one. | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
Here they can at least get decisions made quickly. | :13:38. | :13:46. | |
The rules are made by my father, Prince Michael, as | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
That is the reason Sealand was made into a principality, to simplify the | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
That way you do not need to vote things through a parliament. | :13:55. | :14:03. | |
Simple constitution not with the red tape, | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
The debate over the use of the veto or the power of our | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
Parliament to block EU legislation is pretty well over. | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
We can pick and choose some of what we do in the EU | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
but not all of it and if you don't like that, you should vote to leave. | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
At least that is if you think sovereignty is all-important. | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
But most of us have to do a little mental cost benefit test. | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
If we leave the EU, do we value the powers | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
And do we think we would lose influence anyway? | :14:42. | :14:51. | |
As you weigh up that choice there is a first | :14:52. | :14:53. | |
Living the British dream, or dreaming of a continental life? | :14:54. | :15:01. | |
The closer to Europe you feel, the less | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
you might worry about pooling power with Europeans. | :15:06. | :15:07. | |
The lower the cost of being in the EU. | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
Where is the essence where when I close my | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
Gisela Stuart is a thoughtful campaigner for Brexit. | :15:17. | :15:25. | |
I think in terms of say in the United | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
Kingdom, nobody in London would object to paying more taxes to keep | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
Northern Ireland as part of the UK, that is part of the union. | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
If you go back to the European Union, the | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
original six were pretty much a kind of demos. | :15:40. | :15:45. | |
And you could have said Denmark and Austria, there was | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
All I can tell you now is with 28 and growing, that | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
demos has stretched itself beyond its limits. | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
Only you know who you feel comfortable sharing your house | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
with, your bank account with or your votes with. | :16:02. | :16:03. | |
Are the British generally outliers in Europe? | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
On average, are our values different from theirs? | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
The Anglo-Saxons and probably a lot of | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
the seafaring nations know one thing. | :16:18. | :16:18. | |
That you cannot control the | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
You find the whole of British politics, | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
the system in the House of | :16:28. | :16:28. | |
We never claim to define ultimate long-standing truths. | :16:29. | :16:37. | |
We simply say, here is a problem, what | :16:38. | :16:38. | |
One Parliament does not bind another. | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
Because when circumstances change you may have | :16:42. | :16:43. | |
No, we take a fundamentally different approach in | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
the political decision-making process. | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
There is a second question you might want to think about. | :16:51. | :16:53. | |
Exactly how much influence do we have over the rest of the EU, so | :16:54. | :16:56. | |
The interesting thing about the UK is that it has influenced | :16:57. | :17:04. | |
If you look at what is going on right now, I would say a | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
large percentage of the industry standards across Europe | :17:10. | :17:11. | |
You can argue that even arch sceptic Prime | :17:12. | :17:20. | |
Minister Thatcher had a big influence on the whole direction of | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
the EU, even if she came to doubt its value. | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
There was a move towards greater majority voting in order to | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
Margaret Thatcher, Prime Minister at the | :17:29. | :17:30. | |
time, although she did not like the idea of giving | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
up veto in this area, she was the prime champion of the | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
single market, it was part of her drive for greater competitiveness, | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
both at home and in the European communities. | :17:42. | :17:43. | |
She accepted these considerable changes across a wide | :17:44. | :17:45. | |
So that we would move from a veto to majority voting. | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
But not everyone agrees we get our way very | :17:53. | :17:54. | |
And not everyone thinks the kinds of concessions we win are | :17:55. | :18:02. | |
You see all the time we are concentrating on minor | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
issues like what shape is a plug or the size | :18:09. | :18:15. | |
the big issues of how do we spend our money? | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
What taxes are we allowed to raise, how does our welfare | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
system work, who was allowed to come to our country? | :18:23. | :18:24. | |
The EU has moved on massively from just being a of trade | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
As the referendum campaign progresses, you will hear a lot | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
about the different countries Britain might emulate. | :18:31. | :18:32. | |
You will not hear much about Sealand. | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
But it might just help you think about | :18:36. | :18:37. | |
sovereignty, power and the potential trade-offs between the two. | :18:38. | :18:47. | |
I got back through Sealand passport control safe and well. | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
And I'm joined here by Chris Grayling MP, | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
one of the Cabinet ministers campaigning for Brexit. | :18:53. | :18:54. | |
Lord Mandelson, the Labour politician and former | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
European Commissioner, campaigning to Remain. | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
And as well as our group of undecided voters, | :19:01. | :19:02. | |
Sir Francis Jacobs, a former Advocate General | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
Marina Wheeler QC, a barrister described by one newspaper | :19:08. | :19:16. | |
as the "brains" behind her husband, Boris Johnson. | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
The historian, Professor Robert Tombs and Siobhan Benita, | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
who was a civil servant in several big departments and is now | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
I want to start with the biggest question on sovereignty. | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
Exactly how much control does the EU actually have over us? | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
Is it just the single market stuff, or is the EU creeping into every | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
Chris Grayling, you have written the U dominates our way of life. Is that | :19:36. | :19:50. | |
true? -- that the EU. And we go to work in the morning, our workplace | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
conditions are framed by the EU. When we travel to work, the safety | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
standards around the transport system come on roads and railways | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
are shaped by the EU. In regards to the countryside, the rules about | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
agriculture are shaped by the EU is so are the rules around the | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
environment. When we go shopping at the weekend, the rules that give us | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
consumer rights are shaped. When we have issues in the news like asylum, | :20:13. | :20:17. | |
the definition of an asylum seeker is saved by the EU and so on and so | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
on. We look across the full range of government and look for an area of | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
government activity that is not wholly or partly shaped by the EU | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
and you are looking at quite a small number of areas. Let's focus, road | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
safety that you imagine. You are not suggesting that we would not have | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
road safety rules if there was not an EU. In practical terms, how | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
different are what they are making us do from what we would do anyway? | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
Wright let's take a practical example, Boris Johnson has argued | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
for it, we've had terrible accident in London, cyclist being crushed by | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
lorries. Boris has argued for improved ways of protecting cyclists | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
on the roads, changing the way that lorries operate and are structured. | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
It falls under EU rules and the French don't want to do it so he has | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
said he has not been able to pursue that. But it's going to happen? It | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
is a delay while they improve the lorries. It is a typical compromise | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
to look after people with lorries. Boris would ban it tomorrow but the | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
French say then that lorries could not drive on our roads. But it is a | :21:23. | :21:29. | |
decision we can't take. Live animal transport, I personally don't | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
believe we should carry live farm animals over very long distances in | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
lorries. I think it's inhumane and we should stop doing it and probably | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
the majority of people in this country would stop doing it but we | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
can't because EU rules would allow us to do so. Another change we would | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
put in place because I think it's right but we can't because the EU | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
says it is their competency and they are not doing it. To go through some | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
areas where the EU does not touch our stuff, I mean, it touches it all | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
a little bit but the rules of the welfare system for British people | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
are basically determined by ours. The welfare system is a good case in | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
point. I was employment Minister for the first two and a half years of | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
the last Parliament and you are right, the Lisbon Treaty, the most | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
east -- most recent EU treaty says Social Security is a national | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
confidence by the European Court has ruled that the provisions in the | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
treaty would say people should have the freedom to move anywhere they | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
want across Europe has been deemed by that court to trump the rights of | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
the member states to decide their Social Security. But the bulk of | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
where full rules and the bulk of taxes are made here, education, | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
health funding, shopping, gay marriage. Increasingly, more wealth | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
are rules are being shaped by decisions in the European Court even | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
though they are supposed to be a matter for the UK, they are turning | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
into European decisions. Peter Mandelson, do you acknowledge we | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
have lost a lot of control? We have had some example there like animal | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
transport. A very poor example because I remember legislation to | :22:56. | :23:03. | |
protect animal welfare going through the commission when I was a member | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
ten years ago. I'm not quite sure what Chris is talking about. It's a | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
bit like Boris Johnson's claimed that there is an EU directive that | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
prevents children from blowing up balloons, also rubbish. But you are | :23:11. | :23:18. | |
not shying away... We do give up some sovereign tree. Absolutely not, | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
I don't shy away from it for a moment. But the point I want to make | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
is this... So you have given up some intrigue? Chris Como throughout his | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
statements, talked about the US some autonomous, independent | :23:35. | :23:35. | |
organisation, totally separate from us, making these laws and then | :23:36. | :23:43. | |
imposing it on us. We make this law. We, the member states, make this | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
law. We have a member of the European Commission who draws up | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
these proposals in the first place. We have British members of the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
European Parliament who reflect the public's interest in that | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
legislative system. There are British judges in the European Court | :24:02. | :24:07. | |
of Justice. Sorry, you are not... We have 13% of the vote and they have | :24:08. | :24:15. | |
87%. We, like every other member states, are part of this collective | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
process of taking decisions, formulating legislation, pursuing | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
policies and yes, in many cases, they are a compromise. Can I give | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
you an example? It is not simply Britain standing aside in spend that | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
isolation, agreeing with itself. That's the easiest thing in the | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
world. But where there are things that we need to pursue legislation, | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
that we need to introduce on an EU wide basis, then we are part of the | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
system. Who do you think got rid of all the roaming charges for mobile | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
phones? The European Union dead. Can I give a quick example? That is not | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
wholly true. North Sea oil expression, after the Gulf of Mexico | :25:01. | :25:03. | |
oil disaster, the commission decided it needed to step in and tighten | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
safety standards, even though we already had in the North Sea the | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
best safety standards in the world. It rewrote the safety practices. As | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
a result, North Sea oil companies are now having to redo the way they | :25:16. | :25:18. | |
work, even though what they were doing was safe in the first place. | :25:19. | :25:28. | |
We could not stop that from happening because we are one of only | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
two or three out of 28 member states... And are those companies | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
complaining about our membership of the Eucharist among are they saying | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
we should come out? They are complaining directly about the | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
legislation. Chris has a long-standing track record and bete | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
noire about health and safety legislation which is drawn up in | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
Europe which he would like to see repealed. What I would say to you is | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
that as a Cabinet minister, if you felt so deeply and passionately | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
about a policy that has been formulated Rod Lawler that has been | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
drawn up in Brussels, then you as a minister have a right to go there. | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
My complaint about you and some of your colleagues is that you are so | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
Euro phobic that oftentimes, you don't bother to go to Brussels, you | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
don't bother to turn up at the meetings. That's not true, I've | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
represented the UK at European Council meetings for five years, | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
going to every council meeting that I've been invited to. I realise | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
why... I realise why you are being so defensive about this. As you well | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
know, many people in Whitehall believe that you hate the European | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
Union so much that you won't bat for Britain by turning up at the | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
meetings. I have been to every council meeting that I've been | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
invited to for five years. I have never sent a junior minister but I | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
have never either felt properly able to represent the UK's interest | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
because I was consistently and always outvoted. So you sometimes | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
did not turn up. That's not true. We will establish that later. I want to | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
bring in a member of the panel, Siobhan Benita. Michael Gove said | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
something quite interesting and I wonder if you can help us with this? | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
I know UR a Remains a porter, you said, "As a minister, I've seen | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
hundreds of new rules across my desk, you will, none of which were | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
questioned by the UK Parliament, none of which I could alter in any | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
way and none of which made us free, richer or fairer". In your | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
experience in the civil service, how many bits of EU staff were rolling | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
across the table? There are two perceptions in this debate which, | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
Mike spirit of 15 years in the civil service, gets a bit muddled in this | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
whole debate. One is exactly what Peter was saying, laws don't get | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
imposed on us. We are there, around the table, negotiating each of those | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
laws as they come in. Actually, UK civil servants are very good at | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
getting what they wanted those negotiations. I think it is a | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
misunderstanding to say somehow these things are done to us. There's | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
not a separate of Brussels bureaucrat that we are not a part | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
of. Peter has made that point. The second thing, I can honestly say in | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
my time in the civil service, the EE you played a very small part in the | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
policies I saw coming across my desk. -- the EU played. That might | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
have been a reflection of the fact I worked in departments like the | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
Department of Health for the last two years of my time in the civil | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
service, after the coalition came in. The NHS reforms that we worked | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
on for years, that were very messy going through Parliament, had very | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
little, if anything to do with the EU. Mike spirit would have been the | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
same in the Department for Education, I think. I think it's | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
important as well that people realise it is not true that | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
absolutely everything is controlled by the EU. I'm not doubting that | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
some things are. So would you put yourself somewhere between Chris | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
Grayling and Peter Mandelson? Would you put yourself with Peter | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
Mandelson or closer to Chris Grayling? I'm definitely closer to | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Peter. We influence the areas where the EU governance or influences our | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
policy-making. But there are a huge number of policy areas where the EE | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
you have three little influence over what we do. Marina Wheeler, you | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
wrote a piece about one of the ways in which the EU and extending | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
influence into the UK which is essentially judicial, through the | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
courts. Often, in fact, taking more power than anyone thought they | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
would. You should explain the point because it was quite an influential | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
piece will stop it is certainly true that the issue here, when one is | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
looking at power, is not just legislation, although I certainly | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
agree that there is a great deal of legislation. But the other really | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
important actor is the court. Certainly, with the legislation that | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
exists and the powers that exist, the court does interpret that and | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
often takes a very expansively you a bit. But my particular point that I | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
wrote about was something that is another further leap forward, the | :29:57. | :30:03. | |
Charter of fundamental rights. Now, the Charter, I'm giving a little bit | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
of background, just to explain for everyone's benefit, the charter is | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
very like the convention on human rights that comes from Strasbourg. | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
But it is a Luxembourg and EU version. So we have two charters? We | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
have a convention and the charter which becomes important. The charter | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
is a bit broader than the convention. It was originally | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
conceived as part of a constitutional treaty but rejected. | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
It was repackaged and appeared at Lisbon. The important point about | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
the charter is that it is now being used as a way of challenging | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
domestic legislation and EU legislation. The important point is, | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
with the principle of supremacy of EU law, it can set aside national | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
law and national provision. Do you recognise the court has | :30:57. | :31:12. | |
extending power. The reason you have the European Court of Justice is | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
there has to be a body that arbitrates in times of disputes when | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
there are different interpretations of the law, somebody has to give a | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
judgment. The question is whether that panel of judges have extended | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
EU law areas we would not have thought we were signing up to when | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
we joined. Do not recognise that. I hear the claim and do not recognise | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
the reality and I want a Europe that supports values. I want a Europe | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
that supports human rights. I want a Europe that stands up for | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
individuals, minorities and their freedom. I would like those values | :31:54. | :32:00. | |
to be reflected in the decisions of the other European institutions. I | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
believe in those values. What proportion of time when we end up in | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
the European Court, the UK ends up on the winning side? Funny you | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
should mention that but I have a list here. I knew you would ask | :32:13. | :32:24. | |
this. I rather like the UK wins over the clearing houses. Benefits | :32:25. | :32:37. | |
migration, a case we brought. British taxpayers win ruling against | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
Her Majesty's revenue... We win some and we lose some, Chris, I am | :32:45. | :32:52. | |
afraid. Can I ask... Sir Francis Jacobs, you were an Advocate General | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
at backcourt. Have they extended judicial power? I think it is | :32:57. | :33:04. | |
reasonable to take the view the Court of Justice has taken a broad | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
view of the powers conferred on the European Union. I think this is not | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
particularly surprising, it is something you would find in modern | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
democracies, that the courts tend to take a broad view of rights and | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
powers conferred by the Constitution, certainly to take a | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
broader view of fundamental rights which is regarded as a basic value | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
in Europe, and should be. Rightly so. There is a difference between a | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
Supreme Court in the United States for example and European Court of | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
Justice. This is not a democratic country in his court over a | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
constant, a club of nations, is there a difference? I do not and | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
there is such a difference now. We have the European Court of Human | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
Rights which is developing the basic rights of individuals through | :34:01. | :34:06. | |
Europe, a larger Europe than the EU and it is not surprising in the | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
scope of EU law, and it is only where the court has jurisdiction | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
within the scope of EU law, that fundamental rights should be | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
protected by the court. We need to move on. We have dealt with the | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
courts and certain issues. Well, in the referendum campaign, | :34:25. | :34:26. | |
there has been an attempt to encapsulate the argument | :34:27. | :34:28. | |
about sovereignty into a single number - the proportion of the laws | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
that govern us in this country that Is it most of the law - | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
or just a bit? It would be lovely to be | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
definitive about this. We asked Queenie, a British bulldog, | :34:39. | :34:40. | |
a national symbol no less, She got the BBC's legal affairs | :34:41. | :34:42. | |
correspondent, Like a lot of British citizens, | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
Queenie, this British Bulldog is confused about just how much UK | :34:46. | :34:55. | |
law is in fact now EU law. The claims vary so massively, | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
it is really difficult to get The organisation Business | :34:59. | :35:06. | |
For Britain, which campaigns for Britain to leave the EU, | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
says over 60% of UK law If you stack up the entire EU rule | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
book, it would be higher than Nelson's Column, | :35:17. | :35:24. | |
which is an incredible amount of paperwork for British businesses, | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
employees, all people who have to comply with this legislation | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
that they have to deal with. That is cost and time added | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
to their businesses. Others are sceptical | :35:35. | :35:37. | |
as to whether calculating a percentage of EU law | :35:38. | :35:39. | |
tells us anything at all. The critical thing | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
is to look at impact. If you look at percentages, | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
you end up with the number of laws, directives and regulations, | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
which tells you nothing For impact, you need | :35:51. | :35:52. | |
to look at these sectors where the regulations | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
and the laws are made. In some sectors, the impact | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
will be absolutely minimal. Between 1993 and 2014, | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
Parliament passed 945 Acts, of which 231 implemented EU | :36:08. | :36:16. | |
obligations of some sort. It also passed 33,160 | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
Statutory Instruments, which flesh out how | :36:21. | :36:22. | |
a statute will work. 4283 of them implemented | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
EU obligations. Add both of these together | :36:30. | :36:31. | |
and divide by the total number of laws passed, | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
and 13% of our laws If you want to know about UK law, | :36:37. | :36:38. | |
this is the place where every piece of UK legislation is stored, | :36:39. | :36:47. | |
including this one. This is the 1972 | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
European Communities Act. This is it, the Act that took us | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
into the European Economic This is the act that gives direct | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
effect to EU law in the UK. That is what gives rise | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
to that 13% figure. But that figure is not entirely | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
accurate because most EU regulations don't need new laws like these | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
to bring them into effect. Most can be brought into effect | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
without the need for legislation. For instance, by simply changing | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
administrative rules. So if you count all EU regulations, | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
EU-related Acts of Parliament, and EU-related Statutory Instruments, | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
about 62% of laws introduced between 1993 and 2014 that apply | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
in the UK implement EU obligations. Doing a simple count of laws is not | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
really that useful. The Working Time Directive, | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
which gives workers a minimum number of holidays and rest breaks, | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
is pretty significant. The regulation classifying padded | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
waistcoat in things like puffa But each counts as another EU law | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
on the UK pile. As do EU-wide regulations governing | :38:00. | :38:08. | |
the production of things like olive oil and tobacco, | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
which we don't produce. If the UK votes to leave the EU, | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
would we actually be We make cars and we want | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
to sell them. We will have to make cars that | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
comply with European rules. Whether we go down the Swiss model, | :38:25. | :38:26. | |
the Norwegian model, the WT model or whatever, | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
it is reality, not law. They will not accept our cars | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
if they don't comply So Queenie, for a British | :38:33. | :38:34. | |
bulldog like yourself, or a citizen like me who's been | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
concerned about the issue, it is probably fair to say that EU | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
law represents a significant part But to turn it into a | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
numbers game? Come on, | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
Queenie. Clive Coleman on the numbers, | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
and how not to interpret them. before we move on can be agreed this | :38:55. | :39:13. | |
numbers game, 13%, 62%, whatever it is, it is pointless. I would not | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
argue in terms of numbers, the questions I would ask is in terms of | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
impact, questions like if the EU brings forward a measure in | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
financial services, North Sea oil, something similar, that will cost | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
jobs in the UK, do we have the power to say we will not accept that? We | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
don't. That is my problem. To be clear, you would not be going around | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
saying, three quarters of laws come from Brussels? I don't put numbers | :39:44. | :39:52. | |
on it. Peter Mandelson, do you agree, the 13% figure sometimes | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
quoted by the Remain side is not helpful? I do not use the figures | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
but I take issue with Chris, who talks about legislation, EU | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
obligations, the terrible impact, as if it has been something done over | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
which we have no influence. It is very fundamental. This is not | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
legislation imposed on us, we are part of the legislative process and | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
until Chris understands this he will not come to terms with the | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
process... If he went to Brussels more often he might know and how it | :40:29. | :40:36. | |
worked. I have been there more recently that you have, Peter. If | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
the EU brings forward a measure that will cost jobs in the UK can we stop | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
that happening? If we have been part of the less -- legislative process, | :40:49. | :40:58. | |
if we have co-control with the European Parliament over what | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
legislation goes through and we have been part of the legislation I | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
accept we need to implement it, it is an obligation on us, but only | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
because we have in a prior stage to its conclusion been part of its | :41:12. | :41:20. | |
formulation. Sometimes we are outvoted. You have to accept the | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
obvious, sometimes we are outvoted and you have to accept that as part | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
of being a member. Which is why I want to leave. I think there is a | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
different problem, which is often legislation that leaves the | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
commission which has had a full impact assessment and is quite | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
specific and people know it has to be contained, as it goes through the | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
European Parliamentary process, it is often added to and made into a | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
patchwork quilt and when it reaches the member states it is often | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
extended, gold-plated, extended in coverage with the consequent impact | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
on us at home, so it is not just Brussels and the European Commission | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
it is the elected representatives in the European Parliament who also | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
have a responsibility, but it is the member states whose job it is to | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
contain the impact of legislation without any side effects. | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
We've discussed how much power over our lives that we've lost | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
But one of the main arguments for leaving is not about what we've | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
lost, but what we might still lose in future, the fear of the EU | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
Can I take it that is actually your deepest fear? It is important, we | :42:34. | :42:50. | |
are not voting to stay in the EU as it is today, it will have to change | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
and in order for the Euro to survive and we have seen the crisis, | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
eurozone countries will have to do things in a harmonised way which | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
they are saying so, talking about a eurozone Budget and Finance | :43:06. | :43:08. | |
Minister, a greater social policy integration. We are talking about | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
being on the fringes, one of only two member states not committed to | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
being part of this, like being a 5% shareholder in a business where | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
somebody else owns 95%. We will have no say as they take on the | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
characteristics of an emerging United States of Europe. Peter | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
Mandelson, can you give assurance that is not going to happen, we will | :43:35. | :43:42. | |
not be on the edge of a big page? I think just because we have less | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
influence because the eurozone is integrating as it is, does not mean | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
we should draw the conclusion we should abandon all our influence and | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
leave the European Union. The more substantive point is this and it is | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
important for the future. In my judgment, we have seen the last two | :44:02. | :44:08. | |
great political projects of the European Union. One is the single | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
currency, of which we are not part and are not going to be, and | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
secondly, the Schengen zone, the open borders, and why do I think | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
they will be the last smack two reasons. First the public in Europe, | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
not just in Britain, has no hunger for deepening the integration and | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
constructing a further political project within the ambit of the EU | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
and secondly the member states who control the European Union, it is an | :44:40. | :44:47. | |
intergovernmental organisation essentially, would much prefer to | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
see the European Union do better and take on... The responsibilities it | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
has rather than broaden... I think the argument goes to make those | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
projects work, to make your own work, they need to integrate they | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
need fiscal union, political union, they need to be more like a country. | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
You won't have France and Germany ceasing to be nation states because | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
they are in the Eurozone. What is important, Evan, if I may say that | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
we need to maximise our influence on what goes on in the Eurozone because | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
its success or failure will directly affect us. That is very important. | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
Let me bring in Robert. Do you see some trajectory, a sweep of history, | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
if you like, that takes the Eurozone towards something closer to a nation | :45:45. | :45:48. | |
state? How much does that worry you about the role of the UK on the edge | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
of it? In a way it does but I don't see it in the same with either of | :45:54. | :45:56. | |
your distinguished guests. Firstly, I don't think it would work, at | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
least not in a democratic way. It is hard to see any sovereign body | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
within the youth. If there were one, they would be able to solve the Euro | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
crisis and the refugee crisis. It is clear that there's a gap in the | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
middle, a void the centre of Europe. It seems that the member states are, | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
as it were, losing sovereignty but there is no one taking it up and | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
running Europe on our behalf. What we seem to be having, therefore, is | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
a dysfunctional and probably unworkable system of very many | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
nations which, if they are very lucky, might turn into something | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
like the Austro-Hungarian Empire, which was able to be run by keeping | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
everyone in an equal stake of unhappiness is one of its prime | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
ministers said but it is difficult to see it working in an effective | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
way. If things go wrong, and things do go wrong, there is no one who is | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
a sovereign to make the final decision is binding on everyone. No | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
one say, "Here are the refugees, this is the number you will have and | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
this is the number you will have". No one can say that. That's not | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
right, there's a European Council of member states who at the end of the | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
day, calls the shots in the European Union. We all know that. The | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
European Commission services it and implements and executes what the | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
member states want. The European Parliament adds to it, quite | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
rightly. The European Court of Justice will arbitrate when there | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
are disputes or legal interpretations to be made. But at | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
the end of the day, the European Union is owned by its member states | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
including Britain. It is they who will call the shots and decide | :47:29. | :47:34. | |
through their agreement how the refugee crisis or any other crisis | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
is managed. They may not do it instantly. They may not do it | :47:39. | :47:41. | |
perfectly bit silly end of the day, they will get there, with a little | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
bit of give and take and compromise but that is what being in an | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
organisation like the European Union is all about. Robert? As you said, | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
we're not really in it, we are half out of it or three quarters. Who? We | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
are not in the Eurozone and we are not in Schengen. We are full members | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
of the European Union. We are full and equal members of the European | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
Council and full and equal members of the European Parliament. We have | :48:08. | :48:12. | |
our own personal the European Commission. And we have no control | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
at the Eurozone policy, surely? Orange Mackreth we don't want to be | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
in the Eurozone. But if the Eurozone, as you hope, becomes more | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
successful, would you like us to join? No, we took a decision some | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
time ago as the government to keep open the option of joining and then | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
deciding not to and that position stands. We were right then and we | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
are right now. I don't see the circumstances in which Britain is | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
going to go into the single currency. Let's take a pause, there. | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
We can come back to this in a moment. | :48:45. | :48:45. | |
You have been listening as we talked about the power of the European | :48:46. | :48:53. | |
Court and the number of laws and the kinds of control and examples of the | :48:54. | :48:57. | |
kind of control that Brussels exerts and what we can do and what we can't | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
do. Peter Mandelson has talked about how we do also shake those laws, we | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
are not just passive victims of things being imposed on us. Any | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
comments or thought as we listen to the compensation so far? I will pick | :49:10. | :49:14. | |
on one of you if you don't put your hands up! Yes. It seems to me that | :49:15. | :49:21. | |
there is a wish to engage with all of the other member states. It seems | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
to me that we want to then try and exert some sort of control over them | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
will stop but there does not seem to be anything that guarantees that we | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
will have a degree of control. Know because we are only one vote. It is | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
down to us and our future European members of Parliament to see how | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
they perform. But some of the stuff that Chris said, I must say, scared | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
me a bit. It was meant to. I think it is important. What did I say that | :49:55. | :50:05. | |
was wrong or inaccurate? Any questions for the experts from the | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
panel? Any others of you, Lewis? I have a question, in terms of us | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
producing things like vehicles, cars, anything. Will it then become | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
harder for us to go to the European markets if we do leave? That's a | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
very good question for Chris Grayling. What is going to happen is | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
we're going to try to be the single market if we leave, aren't we? And | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
then we're going to sign up to all the things we talked about that you | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
make like French road safety rules... We will seek to trade | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
freely with the European Union and we will be able to do so because we | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
buy far more from them than they do from us. Can you confirm that when | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
we agree to go back into the Zingle or get the access to their markets, | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
do you agree or not that we will have to reinstate many of the things | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
that you have said you don't like? -- when we agreed to go back into | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
the single market. We loose country from that. Not within the UK. So | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
different standards from the rest of Europe? If we sell things in the US, | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
we have to meet their standards and the same with Japan. We would be | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
able to, despite what Peter says, for example, to ban live animal | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
transport which is not legal today and has not been -- illegal today | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
and we have not been allowed to ban it because of EU rules. What about | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
the 10% tariff that would be placed on car exports to the continent of | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
Europe? 10%. What about the 28% on chemicals? What about the 11th cent | :51:37. | :51:44. | |
and 13% on food and beverages? The point is that we buy far more from | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
them than they do from us. Does anybody seriously believe that the | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
German government is going to say to its car-makers, and the French | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
government is going to say to its nasty bombers, who blocked the | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
motorways when there is trouble, "We are going to stop you selling to the | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
British or we are going to make it more expensive"? So you are willing | :52:02. | :52:08. | |
to say we will ban the W X balls to the UK because you are not giving us | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
access to your market? We are not going to ban exports and neither are | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
they. Aren't they going to say, you are in the single market and you | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
have to obey the rules, for example go on the lorry standards, the | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
trucks that can drive on the roads? You can't be in the single market | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
with a different set of rules. The very rules that you have talked | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
about, to be in the single market on agriculture, there will be one rule | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
for the transport of live animals, one rule for lorries which will get | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
you the dangerous lorries that Boris wants to ban. That implies in North | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
America as well, the North Americans have two B-cell their own lorries. | :52:46. | :52:54. | |
This is our home market of 500 million people. We have a massive | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
trade visit from them, we buy more from them than they do from us. If | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
we bark on leaving the European Union, will we then embark on an | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
elaborate negotiations to get ourselves back in the single market? | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
We will have an agreement because it is invariant rest. So having voted | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
to come out, we will embark on a prolonged negotiation to get | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
ourselves back? Let's get into this with the economic expert. We are | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
going to get to this in the economic programme. Chris Grayling, we will | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
get to this all in the programme in a couple of weeks. | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
In this discussion of sovereignty, we don't want to overlook British | :53:31. | :53:32. | |
history and heritage, and the question of whether our | :53:33. | :53:34. | |
We are taught about 1066 and all that, the fight | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
for liberty, Magna Carta, and all that it is to be British. | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
# Magna Carta. # Magna Carta? | :53:45. | :53:46. | |
# He's got to be subject to law # Left to Henry III | :53:47. | :53:59. | |
and Edward I to pass it through. # Since 1215, Magna Carta's been # | :54:00. | :54:07. | |
The foundation of our democracy. Horrible Histories' take | :54:08. | :54:15. | |
on Magna Carta, and the founding of a British political culture that | :54:16. | :54:17. | |
still resonates today. We're joined again by our panel, | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
with the constitutional historian Vernon Bogdanor replacing | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
Sir Francis Jacobs I want to put to the panel of | :54:27. | :54:39. | |
voters, I want you to shut your eyes and say to yourself the word, "We". | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
We heard one of the speakers in an earlier video saying when you shut | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
your eyes and think of, "Weak", you have a particular community in mind. | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
How many of you were thinking, "We British", when you did that? And how | :54:58. | :55:05. | |
many were thinking, "We Europeans"? Really? Is that because we are | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
having a conversation about it? I think it probably is because we are | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
having a compensation about it. Today, I am feeling a sense of | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
wanting to be a part of something bigger, for some reason, being here | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
today. Very interesting. Robert, you have written quite a lot about | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
British history. Do you think that British culture, political culture | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
struggles to fit with the European one? If it does, that would make | :55:33. | :55:39. | |
sovereignty harder to swallow? It clearly does because we have always | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
had a different view of the European project than most of our partners | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
have. I think the reasons are pretty simple and they don't go back all | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
that far. We have rather less to be worried about. If you think of the | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
history of Europe in the last century, it is one that for many of | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
our neighbours has been a history of wars, civil wars and dictatorships | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
and foreign occupation and so on. For them, the U is an escape from | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
the nightmare of the last hundred years. It is not really the same | :56:08. | :56:15. | |
forest. -- the EU. Whether it is good or bad, we are not willing to | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
make the same kind of sacrifices to stay in the project that many | :56:19. | :56:20. | |
countries like Greece are. Vernon Bogdanor, do you think there is a | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
cultural misfit that makes pooling sovereignty with Europe difficult? | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
There may be and we have often seen ourselves a separate from Europe but | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
of course twice in the last century, the governments which wanted to | :56:33. | :56:34. | |
isolate themselves from Europe found themselves forced into world wars | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
because of events that happened in far-away parts of Europe. Neville | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
Chamberlain spoke of jokers of actor as a far-away country of which we | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
know nothing. I think the European project is very important for | :56:48. | :56:49. | |
bringing together countries which previously fought each other. | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
Everyone says that Germany and France will never fight each other | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
again. I'm sure that's right but in the Balkans, we see ancient hatreds | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
which are only kept together by the European Union and the possibility | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
of entering it. A Europe that is broken up into national states might | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
be very dangerous for us. We can't, whatever we think escape from what | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
is happening on the continent. Therefore, there is an argument for | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
saying we should be there to influence what is happening on the | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
continent. I think this is an aspect which is often left out of the | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
debate. Chris Grayling, I want to put this point to you. You said we | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
will be a little thing on the edge of a big nation called Eurozone. Why | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
does that mean we should come out? Why wouldn't you stay in to | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
influence it as much as you can? You won't have influence over it if | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
you're outside of it completely? Two things, the organisation that has | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
kept the peace in Europe is Nato rather than the European Union, in | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
my view, which has played an enormously important role in ending | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
the divide which took root in Europe after the second model and help | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
provide peace and prosperity and in the eastern Mediterranean today, | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
Nato is dealing with the migrant crisis, not the European Union. In | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
terms of our influence, what matters to me is the ability did event and | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
look after our national interest. We have not spoken at all about | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
migration to night... We are doing that in another programme. Or the | :58:12. | :58:15. | |
issue of housing where we have huge pressure already, we are bringing in | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
a population the size of Newcastle to the country every year and yet we | :58:19. | :58:29. | |
have no power ourselves to set limits on the number of people who | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
come and live and work here. It's not about closing the door | :58:33. | :58:34. | |
altogether but we can't even set limits as part of the European | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
Union. It is an example where we cannot take a decision in our | :58:38. | :58:39. | |
national interest and I think we should be an independent nation able | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
to do that. Chris Grayling, thank you. | :58:43. | :58:42. | |
I want to give the last word to the panel. What has been the most | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
important thing you have heard the night, the thing that has weighed | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
most heavily? I liked the historian Feller, sorry, I forgot your name! | :58:54. | :58:59. | |
He said the EU was set up to stop warring nations fighting each other, | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
keep them on the same side. I'm Irish and I feel more European. I | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
think there's a place for closer integration with these countries. It | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
has brought travel, opened up many people's eyes in the world. Most of | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
you said you did not think some entry was as important as the | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
economy. How many of you still think the economy is more important than | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
sovereignty? We've had a debate on sovereignty but how many of you | :59:25. | :59:26. | |
think the economy is the more important issue? My goodness! Any | :59:27. | :59:35. | |
more final points from the panel? I think when Lord Mandelson said that | :59:36. | :59:39. | |
you know, it is give and take within this union, I think that is a very | :59:40. | :59:46. | |
valid point, to state that if you are part of the union, Europe, you | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
have to take, some you win and some you lose. Basically, I agree with | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
that. We need to leave it there. Everybody gets squeezed in these | :59:58. | :59:59. | |
mammoth Our live blog page is still filing | :00:00. | :59:59. | |
material, for another half hour Sovereignty is a strangely | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
abstract word for an issue that is all | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
about power and control. I hope you have found much of what | :00:11. | :00:21. | |
you have heard useful. In seven days' time, we will be discussing | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
security but that is all from us tonight. | :00:25. | :00:34. | |
Hello. We will continue to see some very big differences in the weather | :00:35. | :00:42. | |
across the UK on Tuesday. The more persistent rain is going to be | :00:43. | :00:43. |