19/04/2016 Newsnight

We are fighting to be a hostage, locked in the boot

of a car, driven by others to a place and at a place

That's his take if we stay in, but what does Michael Gove think

Was it real life or just Project Fantasy?

The former boss of the World Trade Organisation

The notion that you exit the EU trade wise at no

We will put that to Brexit supporter and former

Lily Allen had spent seven years been stalked by a man who had

approached her on-line when she woke to find him standing

I could see from the minute that he came into my

bedroom that he was ill and that he needed help.

I wanted to help him, I felt immediately like something

And I feel like he has been let down. I have been let down. And how

many other people are being let down? We will discuss why had --

wider has been a rise in stalking and whether police are doing enough.

You make fun of us Germans liking David Hasselhoff and we mainly like

two things. One is David Hasselhoff. And the German comedian facing

criminal proceedings in Germany for a poem criticising the Turkish

President. We will discuss. This wasn't a speech

about a British Exit, this was - in Michael Gove's own words -

a speech about the democratic Today, the Justice Secretary

answered his critics on the Remain side who defied him to find a vision

for what this country would look Michael Gove argued that Britain

would remain in the free trade zone - like Bosnia,

like Serbia, like Albania - It would not, he insisted,

be governed by its rules And crucially, he argued,

it would save the UK billions in the form of ever-rising

costs of EU membership. We'll talk to the former head

of the World Trade Today, Michael Gove revealed

elements of his case for Brexit and he threw scorn on the campaign for

remain macro. If you vote to stay, we are not settling for the status

quo, we voting to be a hostage locked in the boot of a car, driven

by others to an and at a place that we have no control over. And in

contrast, if we vote to leave, we take back the control. One thing to

-- the Justice Secretary set out was how post-Brexit would relate to the

European Union. For example, what would his plan mean for one of the

most delicious industries, cheese? Because we are EU members who follow

the rules and regulations and we do not quit much subsidy to farmers,

our farmers can sell for example that she is across the EU without

facing tariffs on nontariff barriers. But what would happen if

we left? Imagine you were a farmer trying to sell this stilton. If we

have a deal like Switzerland, not much would change, we would follow

roughly the same rules and regulations and you would be able to

sell your cheese across Europe without facing tariffs. If we went

to the other extreme and we got rid of all the rules and regulations and

we increased the subsidies, we might face a different regime. Farmers

might have to fill in forms showing how healthy their cattle were, they

might have to apply to import licences for a block of cheese

roughly the size, they would face tariffs between 25 and 50p depending

on how much cheese other people had already sold the E -- to the EU. The

plans are neither of those extremes but a bespoke deal. He says we can

argue to get rid of the red tape and get good EU market access. There is

a free trade Zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European

nations have access to regardless of whether they are in or out of Europe

or EU. After voting to leave, we will remain in the zone, the

suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain

part of this free trade area and Britain would be on the outside with

just Belarus is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining the

Ukip. Remain campaign is to use what they have called the Albanian market

and they argue not of those countries have the deal Mr Gove

wants. It is absurd to suggest our EU partners if we were to leave

would give us the deal they do not have themselves. So they would give

free access to the single market which they currently pay into the B

members of, with us not having paid a fee. Why would they do do a deal

for others which they as members of the European Union have not done for

themselves? If we became a more deregulated state, we would probably

face trade barriers compared to now, tariffs on nontariff barriers. We

should not do because of course those European firms, they sell 68

billion bounce more than we sell to them so that is a mutual interest in

staying strong trade partners and stronger interests for those French,

German, Italian exporters not to see export barriers going up so the

scaremongering from the Remain campaign does not stand up to

serious scrutiny. One of the questioned by Mr Gove was what sort

of Britain he would like to have after Brexit and the answer was a

free trading and buccaneering nation. He said they would still

like to subsidise farmers and cut tariffs and subsidies and red tape.

This expert is from a think tank close to the Prime Minister's

thinking. There were mixed messages in terms of Mr Gove's speech, he

talked about free trade agreements with emerging Marcus and still

protecting farmers. It is not clear how open they will be but if they do

not take on the farming lobby, you have to ask if they will take on the

car industry and social employment law and the trade unions and how

much they willing to open up and deregulate. Would you become to ball

in a world where we dropped tariffs. And for cars as part of our rear

balancing to a new model of economy? -- we balancing. You have to look at

the overall picture but if we stay straight in -- stay trading partners

with the EU, freed up to trade more energetically with Asia, it is

better for sustainable jobs of the future. Today's speech was

contentious, setting out a plan for a Liberal tariff which trading

state, but the heat for now is around Mr Gove's belief we can cut

red tape and hold EU market access and cut deals with the rest of the

world. A disputed claim, to say the least.

So how would this new trade deal for the UK be put into practice?

I asked Pascal Lamy, former head of the World Trade

Organization, who's spent hours on these kind of negotiations,

If you are part of the European Union, you belong

to the European single market, which means that you have

free access to the whole of the 500 million consumers,

plus countries outside Europe, for which the European Union has

negotiated privileged access, for the price that they're getting,

So if you're in, that's the privileges you have.

If you're out, you lose these privileges.

You lose your preferred access to the European market,

which is roughly 50% of UK trade, and you lose the privileged

access to Canada, Mexico and a series of other countries,

which is probably 15% more of UK trade.

So you lose the privileged access you have, the free trade you have,

You export less, you produce less, you have less trade,

But that's the history, if you like.

Just because a deal is unprecedented doesn't mean it's not possible.

The UK could still trade with the European states free

of tariff and nontariff barriers, but without committing to those full

That's a world of trade, if I may, which is paradise,

But we all know that in the world of trade -

yesterday, today, tomorrow - you don't get free access, free.

You get free access for a price, which is - I give you access

to my market, you give me access to your market.

I'm not going to give you access to my market if you don't give me

This is something that will never work, you know,

Trade negotiations are tough, which, by the way, is one of the reasons

Now, what would the UK have to give to the 27 other syndicates

of Brexit, or to Mexico, Canada, Japan and India?

The UK would give some access, assuming it reduces its existing

market access, which amounts to a 50/60 million consumers market.

You don't get for a 50 million consumer market

So you are saying, bluntly, no free-trade without

Does that also mean that we would have to be covered

We have a European economic space with countries like Norway,

And that's something that you cannot hide to the British public,

the notion that you can exit and keep the benefits that you have

And I'm limiting my comments to trade, which is the part I know.

Would you go so far as the French Economy Minister,

Emmanuel Macron, did at the weekend, to say Britain would be completely

killed in trade talks if the country chose to leave?

I think any serious people, knowing what's happening in trade

on this planet today, knows that the UK has a formidable

asset for the moment which has benefited a lot of economies

and that losing this asset would have a price.

Look, the notion that you exit the EU trade-wise at no

David Owen, the former Foreign Secretary and Brexit and Payne joins

me now. Does the Gove vision where we are part of some large Free Trade

Zone but not of the single market tally with your own vision for

Brexit? Yes, I buy into it completely. There is a choice for

this country now and it is very difficult and there are arguments on

both sides but the fundamental issue is, where is the biggest risk? I

think the biggest risk is a collapse in the Eurozone. People say we are

not in the Euro and people who want to go into the Euro those people but

it will not help. Look what happened to Greece. Rees could default. We

could have problems in Italy. We could have problems in Spain. If you

see six or seven countries running into a serious crisis, the Eurozone

is in crisis and it has been there for six years, the Americans spend

all their time trying to get them to change. For me, the question is, can

you get out of the EU before you get a Eurozone collapse? That Gove

vision specifically today is not just optimistic, it is part of the

Free Trade Zone but not of the single market, and we just heard

from the World Trade Organisation chief negotiator who has been doing

the years of this kind of thing who said it is pie in the sky and it is

a lie. Frankly, he doesn't believe it. Well, the issue is, what is this

referendum about? We in the campaign trying to persuade people to have

the courage to leave, we are not going to be doing the negotiations,

that is going to be the Conservative government for the next four years.

We have transitional arrangements in the treaty which anticipates

somebody might be able to leave. You can't say it is down to the

Conservative government to make it work when we are trying to get

people to understand. They gave us the referendum. You make it sound

like you want it to fail. No, I do not believe it will fail. I am

saying that many options which the government faces. I think it was

right for Michael Gove to choose the one that nobody can stop us using.

We can only build on, which is a WTO.

When you say no one can stop us using that, you just heard that if

you want free trade, you have to accept the world. Michael Gove says

in his version that does not happen. There are various tariffs and some

of them are not very helpful to us, or to our partners in the EU, such

as the rather high tax on cars. And you negotiate that. We are helped by

a position... With whom would you negotiate that? With Germany itself?

Up with the whole of the EU? Germany sells arts a lot of cars and we are

not going to be able to suddenly switch off, so what would they want?

They are looking to expand exports, they are not going to cut us off.

This depends on a benevolent view of Germany towards the UK. I have

negotiated trade arrangements in the old days of the Soviet Union. We

make deals with people who can be very hostile to you because it is

done on the basis of mutual interest. A trade deal is a deal,

and the basic thing is have you got something to sell, you got something

to buy? It is a balance of that. The balance is in our favour. The

balance comes down to who needs what most. Trade with Europe represents

12% of our GDP but EU trade with us is just 3% of players. So

collectively, we need the EU more than they individually need us. You

are turning the statistics round of the wrong way. There are two

statistics you have given. The powerful one is, in which of the big

countries selling large amounts to the UK will be very affected by our

sleeping. They are Germany and France and other countries like the

Netherlands. Let's be clear. The other thing... Let's go back to

this. Read me say one more fact. Since 2002, we have shifted away 10%

of our trade from the EU. The EU is stagnating and there is a currency

crisis. Let's go back to the idea of trade. In Mr Gove's vision, the idea

that France and Germany, probably pretty upset with a Brexit, would

suddenly turn around and say, it is fine and you can have what you want,

and we not worried. They will not say that. They are going to

negotiate what they can give and we can give. Andy Willmott worry about

what message that sends out for any other country thinking they could

leave, too, and break up the EU? You heard Michael Gove's comment. This

is about the democratisation of the comment two continent, that is his

goal. We are all living in a European space, the members of many

organisations, including Nato. One of the advantages of going out of

the EU is that we can pay more attention to that. And we will need

to, given American attitudes. The issue is, do you want to stay in the

ewe or not? If that decision is taken, it comes to the government to

look at these different options. They are trying to put us in a box.

If you say you were looking at the UDA, they say that means you are

accepting the freedom of movement of labour and you are accepting that

you have no vote on arrangements and you are accepting a solution like

Norway. The fact of the matter is that under the circumstances where

we are negotiating, they may be more open-minded. So there is another

question. When you see an end of freedom of movement is central to

this, a lot of people look at you and say that you are a liberal, and

perhaps you come at this from a different perspective. I do, no

doubt. I have spent the last four years trying to get the European

Union to reform, to make it possible for the EEA to be the basis of a new

Europe. And logically, they refuse. Cameron's negotiation, that showed

that they could not change it. Now we have a choice. If we should come

out, as I believe we should, we go into a period, probably, we should

not rush into it but we start to take steps to bring back the

communities legislation which we passed in 1972. We will consider our

place and then we will look at all the options. Look at what is

happening in America, what will happen to the north Atlantic free

trade area, if we have a President Trump. This world is much more

uncertain. On that note, we leave it there. Thank you for coming in.

In an exclusive television interview, the singer Lily Allen has

told Newsnight she feels "victim shamed" by The Metropolitan Police.

On Sunday, she told The Observer that she felt let down and dismissed

as a nuisance by police over her repeated reports

Alex Gray has a history of psychiatric

problems and was known to the police, was finally convicted

this month, seven years after he first threatened her.

It was only when he broke into her house and confronted

her in her bedroom, and then stole her bag,

that the police caught him and charged him burglary and harassment.

That charges didn't, to her dismay, include stalking.

In response to her comments, a senior officer at the Met

emailed her, warning that her telling of the story could deter

Lily Allen spoke to Kirsty earlier today about her support

for a National Register of Serial Stalkers.

But first, she talked about the eight-year ordeal,

The interview contains strong language.

I was lying in bed and I could see the door handle moving. And then he

steams in and he starts screaming and shouting, where is my dad, what

have you done with my dad, you bitch. At which point, I was in

shock. I didn't know who this person was. I was concerned for him because

I could see that he was really agitated and upset. But it was very

focused on me. And he was very close to you, as close as we are. Yes. I

recoiled back into my bed, and he ripped the duvet off. I jumped out

of bed at that point and ran to the other side of the room. And he kept

shouting at me, but he was very focused and it was really confusing

because it was loud and aggressive and was lots of gesticulating going

on. And he had something under his jumper. He didn't seem as the same

person in the photograph, necessarily? Not at all. The

photograph, I cannot even visualise it. It was five years ago, and I saw

it for 30 seconds. It transpired that on the ninth of torpor, he had

sent an e-mail to his mother saying that he was in London and he had

come into some money, probably from my handbag, and that was determined

to murder a celebrity. The police did not tell me that. And I was

living in the same flat. On my own. Albeit with a security guard. Then

on the 11th, I think, I was DJing at an event and I came home at about

1.00am to find the handbag that had been stolen on the bonnet of my car,

burnt out, at which point I called the police. And the police came over

and I think that it was the next day that they installed CCTV on the

outside of my house. And then a day after that, he was arrested.

And what happened in court? He was brought up from the cells, and he

came in. He immediately made eye contact with me. He started shouting

at me in court. When the judge said, why should I grant you bail today,

he said because the world would be a better place without her and that is

what I am here to do. There was nobody from the police and courts

that morning so even though I have witnessed this, the police had not.

Nobody was writing this down in order to notify the CBS that he was

continuing to threaten me. There was a charge of burglary and harassment.

But now stalking charge? No. It did not seem like they were interested

in making that case. After I made evidence, I was taken into a room

and told by the CPS that in his interview, he said that he was going

to put a knife through my face. And in that interview, part of which was

played in court, what did the police say? They said they were going to

end the interview there. Until this happened to you, have you any idea

of the extent of the problem with stocking? I had no idea the extent.

As far as I am aware, it is 700,000 reported cases, 1% of which end up

with a prosecution. That is why I have teamed up with the Women's

Equality Party and Paladin, the charity associated with stalking, to

lobby for this serial wood register. There are not many people in this

country who have the resources to move house, take on a security

guard. And a legal team, to push the CPS and the police. I feel very

thankful that I have those resources but it makes me very worried about

other women and men in this situation.

"Due to the high profile of this matter I fear other victims

of similar crimes may have read the story and now may

not have the confidence to report such matters.

As such, it is really important that I can understand what, if anything,

I was saddened to hear of this report and I would like to hear your

I think it is victim shaming and victim blaming.

But you know he will be sentenced now and that must bring some relief?

It does bring me some relief if he is sentenced and dealt with as a

mentally ill person. Because if he is not, I am not safe and my

children are not safe. I am not in the slightest bit angry with Alex

Gray. I could see from the minute that he came into my bedroom that he

was ill and that he needed help. I wanted to help him,

I felt immediately like something And I feel like, you know,

he has been let down. And how many other people

have been let down? Lily Allen's stalker is due to be

sentenced next month and she is in touch with the Independent and

please -- Independent Police Complaints Commission.

Joining me now from Manchester is National Police Chiefs'

Council Lead for Stalking and Harassment, Assistant Chief

Constable Garry Shewan, of the Greater Manchester Police.

And here in the studio with me is one of the London Mayoral

candidates and leader of the Women's Equality Party,

As you heard, they have teamed up with Lily Allen on this matter.

Garry Shewan, that interview seems to raise some astonishing issues.

There is something weird about a victim saying that she felt she was

victim shamed, made to feel embarrassed by the police calling

her out when she complained. How do you make sense of that? It is clear

that what she insured must have been incredibly frightening. It is not

just celebrities who get stopped. Every week, thousands of victims

across the country, men and women, are subject to this frightening

behaviour that does not seem to stop. It really tears them apart.

And we have to do something about this. As a police service, as a

criminal justice system, we have to listen to people like Lily Allen and

move forward and learn. Hearing her story is really important. We have

to be able to say to people across the country, that is an incredibly

frightening experience and we need to do more and more every week now

to ensure that we safeguard victims. She felt like she had been told off.

When she spoke out and said, I don't think the police came to my rescue

on this one, she got an e-mail saying don't deter other people from

coming forward. Was that the right call for the Metropolitan police to

make? I think we have the last victims, and sadly only one in four

victims of stalking ever report their experience to police. Clearly

people like Lily Allen who do not report put themselves in danger and

we cannot assist them. Do you think the Metropolitan Police fails in

this case? Listening to Lily Allen, clearly she feels let down and I do

not know the circumstances of the investigation but she feels let

down. We have to reach out to the victims and say, please believe us,

we treat stalking very seriously and we have to encourage more people to

come for bird. Too many people suffer for too long with this

obsessive behaviour and we need to support them. -- come forward. I

would encourage police forces around the country that this is an

important story to listen to and yes, we prosecute more and more

people, in the last two years we have successfully prosecuted 77%

more cases of stalking than ever before. But that comes down to 1%.

Is that right, 700,000 men and women are stalked and 1% convicted? I

think what is really interesting here is during Gary talk about how

few women report, because they feared this response, that it will

not be taken seriously. But that figure, 700,000, that is like 2000 a

day? The data is very poor. I don't think it is wrong but I think it

could be much worse. We know that most women only come forward after

their 100th incident. So the scale of the issue is huge. And what is

good about the situation is that we have a stalking law that was

introduced in 2012, and we have an agreed approach between Akpom and

the CPS agreed in 2014. That is very basic and very necessary, such as

referring victims to support services and making sure there is a

single point of contact, taking a serious forensic approach from the

get go. None of these things happened in Lily Allen's case.

The law was introduced in 2012, the statistics speak for themselves,

700,000 people stalked, but the police were only interested in the

burglary in Lily's case and not the stalking. So an acceptance it is on

the rise but a failure on an individual level to take seriously.

700,000 in the British crime survey is people saying they have

experienced stalking, not reported. They have experienced it. Every

year, thousands of people are prosecuted under harassment and

stalking laws which are the same statute. Stalking is far more

serious and the penalty is more important. We have to get police

officers and the CPS to recognise where there is stalking involved, we

must charge with stalking. Too many stalkers get charged with harassment

offences. And a stalking register, as we would have full sex offenders,

is it important since stalking is illegal for there to be a register

of people on it? There are a lot of things we can do and in 2016, we

will see a great deal of activity. We want to see a stalking register

and there will be new guidance for investigating and people can capture

the evidence for the police service on their telephones which is really

important. And also, we have just Anish consultation with the Home

Office on the introduction of a stalking order -- we have just

finished. To put controls on perpetrators from the moment it is

reported. This is vital to combat it and keep people safe. The Women's

Equality Party is doing this work with Lily and Paladin because it is

important stalking is recognised but people are not recognising stalking

and a key part of this campaign is to ringfence funding for special

support groups who can use that expertise to train the police. What

is happening is that it is separate incidents being recorded rather than

seeing the full pattern. And on top of that, it is really important that

is understood so hopefully when we move to a register of serial

stalkers, people can recognise that pattern. Thank you, both.

If you've been affected by any of the issues that

we've discussed tonight, you can contact Paladin, the

You have probably heard the one about the boat, the Turkish

President and the antiquated law! -- goat.

The fine line between great satire and mindless offence is one

that is often tested - but a transgression doesn't

often cause fully fledged diplomatic incidents.

often cause fully fledged diplomatic incident.

Not so the German satirist Jan Bohmermann's song about

the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

It alleged the President was a fan of beast reality, among other

things. -- beast reality. Mr Boehmermann is now under police

protection and Angela Merkel's government has approved a criminal

inquiry, under a little-used law concerning insults

against foreign heads of state. It begs questions about free speech,

German-Turkish relations, and more. The poem by a controversial

German satirist has won Accusing the Turkish President

of bestiality, among other things. But it has become a major

international incident. To be fair, the comedian explicitly

mentioned an obscure German law Paragraph 103 of Germany's Penal

Code states, whosoever insults a foreign Head of State shall be

liable to imprisonment, not Over 1,500 people have been

prosecuted in Turkey He's been accused of cracking

down on press freedom. But he has defended his

attitude to satire. I must put it in very fine terms,

we shouldn't confuse criticism With the refugee crisis in Europe

top of the agenda and Turkey seen as key to solving it,

the German Chancellor may have felt obliged to accept Erdogan's demand

for the comedian to be investigated. President Erdogan is taking

advantage of Merkel's desperation to stem the flow

of Syrian migrants into continental Europe and therefore he puts

pressure on her to open a criminal investigation against

the German satirist. You make fun of us Germans liking

David Hasselhoff... But Merkel is now facing

accusations in Germany she has The great Public Intellectual

Michael Ignatief - former leader of Canada's liberal

party - joins us now from Harvard. I said, what choice does Angela

Merkel have but to allow the prosecution? She could have said

respectively to Mr Erdogan... Prosecuting a German national

satirist for an insult to you is And you should not

seek satisfaction in If you are offended, with respect,

Mr Erdogan, it's your problem. There is a line, between satire and

offence. And when you talk to Turkish journalists and they said

this bordered on Islamophobia, it becomes a slightly different

question. Come on, I think satire is not satire on less it is offensive.

Of course this stuff is offensive. That is what satire is. The real

issue is that Erdogan wanted to send a message to the Turkish population

in Germany that he could put a free-speech chill on them and he

wants to put a free-speech chill on all his journalists in Turkey.

Especially at this time in Europe. A lot has been read into this. Do you

see it as the beginning of the end of Western European values, as some

others have suggested? I do not think, -- I do not think Westerns of

lies Asian is at the right, I do not think free-speech is at threat.

Brash Western civilisation. I hope the Germans will abolish the law

that makes it possible for a Head of State to urge prosecution when they

feel insulted. The other issue that will come more into the foreground

is people will realise Erdogan is a bad guy. That this regime started

reading Turkey towards democracy. There is tremendous support for

democracy in Turkey, it is hugely important that Turkey is showing

democracy can work, as an Islamic State. This guy is walking them

back. Angela Merkel says she will abolish this law, what does this

suggest between a feature relationship between Germany and

Turkey? I think that is where a lot of Europeans are very concerned.

What is the price we have paid in terms of freedom of speech, in terms

of free Visa access for Turks into Europe? What price are we paying for

the price of this refugee deal is the mark and the people who defend

the refugee Convention and human rights, they are very concerned

about the terms of the deal and whether it denies Syrian refugees

the protections that refugee laws are supposed to provide for them. So

I think everybody is looking at this incident with a sour -- with a

satirist and asking a lot of questions about whether the price

Europe has paid for a refugee deal has been simply too high. Do you

think this will cost her politically, is this where people

say that the rot has set in, and you are too keen to accommodate a

country that is on the outside? What Merkel is saying to her Republic is,

we do not need to solve this refugee problem with barbed wire. I can get

a deal with the Turks that makes it a safe third country and take a

diminished number of Syrians into the country and therefore maintain

German consent for a generous refugee policy, without having to go

barbed wire like barbarians have done. -- like the hungry and saw.

She is on increasingly thin ice with the German public and this incident,

she comes out looking weak and weakness is fatal in politics. Thank

you very much. A pleasure. That is all we have time

for but Evan is here tomorrow, good night.

Good evening. A lovely spring day today, more sunshine on the way

tomorrow. A chilly start in the Northern half of the UK and a touch

of frost in the countryside.