03/06/2016 Newsnight

Tonight, Michael Gove tells us people have had

enough of the experts, as he makes his case

I am sorry, you have had your day, unelected, unaccountable elite. I am

afraid it is time to SAQ fired, we are going to back control. -- time

Has his hour in the sun made the case for Brexit

A highly sexualised, toxic environment, where bullying was rife

As the inquest into the death of a soldier at Deepcut Barracks

concludes, we ask if the Army simply couldn't handle women.

Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army, joins us live.

Tom Keneally, the Booker Prize-winning author who brought

This time, a revisionist take on Napoleon Bonaparte.

Josephine once commented on it, that she went to the wardrobe and found

items of clothing missing. So he is a Frenchman, he tried it all, I

Was this the week when something in the EU waters shifted?

When all those who'd quietly thought the Remain camp would emerge

unambiguously triumphant suddenly got a sense of something stirring

Something feels different at the end of this week.

But it's a sense that the Out camp have found their footing -

on immigration, on sovereignty perhaps.

Tonight, Michael Gove - for the Out campaign -

faced Sky News, and an audience of voters hungry for answers

Our political man David Grossman was watching close up.

It's supposedly a presage of the end of days -

David Cameron and Michael Gove were once the closest of friends.

For the next three weeks, they're on opposite sides

of the referendum contest that could presage the end of days

Today, it was Michael Gove's turn to sit where his 1's best friend for

ever sat yesterday. He was first as the bout the economy if he supported

the case for Brexit and then about friendly foreign leaders who

supported it. We have gone into battle with these

people, give me one. You cannot name one, can you? I will give you a half

for Donald Trump. One of the things about Donald Trump

and all of these people is that they do not have a vote in this

referendum. The people in this audience and watching at home have a

vote and my view is when you hear foreign leaders and politicians, do

not pay attention to what they say but what they do and the truth is

that Barack Obama would never accept a court in Mexico decreeing the law

in the United States. Michael Gove was asked about possible job losses

which the Remain sites they will follow Brexit. I know myself on my

own background that the European Union, it depresses employment and

it destroys jobs. My father had if fishing business in Aberdeen

destroyed by the European Union and the Common fisheries policy. The

European Union has hollowed out communities across this country. It

has also contributed to lower salaries for working people and it

has also ensured that young people in this country do not have the

opportunities to get the entry-level jobs we heard about last night. You

can say that their concerns do not matter. I did not say that. You said

a majority... You claimed that your father was an example... You are on

the side of the elites, I am on the side of the people. Meanwhile, the

Chancellor was on duty for the Remain campaign visiting JP Morgan,

a bank that helped crush the world's financial system. The CEO makes $27

million a year, yes, that is right, he was there to warn against Brexit.

Although at first, he sounded like he was arguing for it. I love the UK

and Britain even though I am an American -- I am an American patriot

and I... They were the only people standing against the terror of Nazi

is, the British people, and the world owes them a great debt of

gratitude. As the Chancellor perhaps wondered where this was going, Mr

Diamond got to the point, telling his employees in the event of

leaving the EU, they may have to leave some operations out of the UK

and he did not know how many he would be forced to fire. At a

Brexit, we cannot do it all here. We have to start planning for that. I

do not know if it means 1,000, 2,000, as many as 4,000 jobs, it

would be all around the UK. Mr Gove dismissed these concerns. The final

question from the studio audience was about himself. You considering a

leadership bid? That is the leadership question! I am absolutely

not. The one thing I can tell you if there are a lot of talented people

who could be Prime Minister after David Cameron would count me out.

APPLAUSE. These days, Michael Gove sometimes dresses like this, but 11

years ago as one of the first MPs to support David Cameron's leadership,

he was dressed in a bit like a beatnik. I think David Cameron is

the person who most adeptly has his finger on contemporary Britain's

policy. We shall see which of the two has his finger on Britain's

polls in three weeks' time. Joining us tonight:

Alastair Campbell, once Tony Blair's Dia Chakravarty, an Outter,

and political director Although she is here

speaking in her own right. Did Michael Gove speak for you when

he spoke about getting away from experts and the elites? That was

interesting and I do agree. Most of the Remain so far, it has been very

establishment. The establishment is saying we need to remain within the

EU. The other thing that resonated is the control issue. Economic

suspect you are the on both sides and I like the idea of taking back

control and that will motivate me. You work with economics, do you like

having a man who says, I do not need to name a single economist? It has

been speculative on both sides. Does anybody understand who is saying

what as far as economic is concerned on either side? It will be uncertain

whatever we do because that is the nature of the world we live in.

These people now coming out and saying, economic is going to be

destroyed if we leave the EU, better record is not great, is it? Do you

agree with what I said at the beginning of the evening, the sense

that something has shifted? Remain is not as confident as they were two

weirs -- two weeks ago? In any case pained you should stay focused until

the end on your arguments and I do not believe Michael Gove has pushed

forward in the way you suggest -- in any campaign. This is the biggest

decision any of us will take in our lifetime, it is like several general

elections of decision-making. It is right people take an interest and

may be that some people are confused and undecided. But for the

politicians, they have to keep going with the main demons. I have always

thought from the beginning, do not take anything for granted. -- the

main arguments. When you have unleashed the forces involved in

this referendum, we are seeing a deliberate attempt by one Tory

politician to get rid of another. That is confusing things for the

Labour Party. You are not talking about Michael Gove? I think it is

sad that has happened but it happens when you have a referendum. You

cannot always control... David Cameron announced the referendum in

very soon -- very different circumstances to what we have got

now. The big arguments Cameron is putting forward and Jeremy Corbyn

and the Trade Union Bill is... But they have done it and done it. They

have to keep doing it. We all watch programmes like this and we see

newspapers, how can there be millions of people still undecided?

Still thinking! We can talk to one of them. You honestly undecided? He

has a good device for his column! Thank you. I have always been a

passionate Eurosceptic and I do not believe that means you have to

leave. They are not the same thing. What has happened this last week has

been interesting because a couple of polls have showed a switch, even the

pollsters do not trust them. It is very unreliable. I believe we will

vote to stay but that is a different matter. It is curious a couple of

polls changes the temperature of the debate. It is fairly clear two

things have happened. Reject the has not worked. I believe that. Before

that interview, it showed on two crucial issues, people were not

worried about the money if they got the control on the immigration

right. So the economy is now my work than immigration? Immigration is

playing higher. That is economic. It has been really confusing, nobody

can tell us the implications. Your own campaigning is focusing now

solidly on immigration, they have made that decision and it seems to

be working. I am not a part of the official campaign. I am not

pretending to speak for them but in your name, you happy and comfortable

with that? It does not matter to what Nigel Farage Mr Gove says, this

is a really big decision. I cannot decide the future of my country

based on who is supporting which campaign because it is a very

confused pool of people, made really, really conflicting

bedfellows. Suddenly you have JP Morgan and the unions on the same

side. The America bank accent was an own goal! He has got an own view and

he can go on television, he has gone beyond that. If you are a Royal

David Cameron supporting Tory, a loyal Jeremy Corbyn supporting

Labour person, Tim Farron, the Greens, if you follow your leaders,

it is a landslide for In, but it is not happening. Because most of the

thinking that matters at the moment is not going on inside the bubble.

The reason I am, I do not think anything has moved, but the reason I

may be more worried than I was is because I think that all this

economic heavy artillery is being pounded out and I do not agree with

Simon, you have to keep going with big messages because they have that

element of truth. It has not stopped these more emotional arguments. For

me, the In campaign has got to get a bit more emotional and show the

fight, show that this really matters. In the end, this is about

people going out and persuading other people. I have to persuade him

if I can and find other people and persuade them and it is not going to

happen inside the studios. Philosophically, what is this about?

David Cameron faced an audience yesterday not just asking about the

EU referendum but Sadiq Khan and nurses, putting their leader on the

spot. Is this about a metropolitan bubble burst and haves and

have-nots? If you go out to the public, they will say what they

think about you. What they think about you, that is always the danger

of a referendum. What is interesting here is that this is what this poll

shows, people do not always vote by their pocketbook. They vote for

vague concepts like national identity, control and sovereignty

and Mr Gove shrewdly went on and on about taking back control. If you

say take back control, almost anybody wants to do that, it is a

good line. If you got behind that, there is a cloud of immigration, it

is quite potent message. I still think a lot of Remain people are not

telling the pollsters what they want to do. David Cameron is constantly

telling people it is about their pocketbook and it is not. I do not

feel comfortable defending David Cameron, strange bedfellows! But he

is also saying it is about what sort of country we are and they worry

when I see Michael Gove who is one of the more intelligence Tory

ministers saying it does not matter what experts think and what people

said who know what is going on in the world. The only reason he says

that, if he had big employers coming out for Leave, he would say that

their opinion mattered. I think there is massive responsibility on

individuals to inform ourselves. Is that what they want in the Leave

camp? That there are no experts? Who do we believe? Who do you believe?

It is not about the Leave campaign or the Remain campaign, what they

want any more, it is about the ordinary person. It is a more subtle

question. Is it better for the country to say we have not got

experts and economists? Is that the message people want? The experts

typically come from the establishment, that is the point.

This is the idea that Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are not part of the

establishment! If you follow Jeremy Corbyn's position. All his life, he

has been antiestablishment. He has been Eurosceptic. He was in favour

of Brexit and suddenly you find themselves very much part of the

establishment as Leader of the Opposition. This is the denigration

of anybody who does not have that opinion, really. Both sides do it.

Yes, I agree. There wasn't a single economist for

Margaret Thatcher. Totting up how many experts you have one each side

is pure politics, pretty vacuous. When you have so many people saying

we'll be worse off if we take this decision, you can't just say to them

all, you are all part of project fear, some of them, in the end...

Quickly respond. They may well be experts but these very people have

got it wrong over and over in the past, how can we trust them?

The question of why and exactly how four young recruits died

at the Deepcut army base is one that, by any stretch

of the imagination, should have been answered

Today, an inquest into the death of 18-year-old Cheryl James,

found with a single gunshot wound two decades ago, ascertained

she killed herself - a verdict her long-suffering

But crucially, the coroner today unearthed a culture

Highly sexualised, chaotic, alcohol-fuelled and toxic.

A place where bullying was rife and young recruits had nowhere

The coroner declared that staff at the camp had failed in their duty

The British Army has had many great days,

She joined the Army in 1995, did well in training and was then

21 years ago, private Cheryl James was on guard duty here at Deepcut

There was a shot and her body was found dead.

Her family have maintained to this day that Surrey Police

and the Royal Military Police concluded far too quickly

And so, as a result of that critical time, there was no proper

In 2014, they won their battle for a fresh inquest

That inquest reported today, but the result was not

Coroner Brian Barker found that Cheryl James died

Speaking after the verdict, her father, Des James,

politely and respectfully disagreed with the coroner's

While we welcome the coroner's verdict, the coroner's findings

today on the environment at Deepcut, we are deeply saddened

Having sat through all of the evidence ourselves,

listened carefully to every word, read every statement

In short, it is our opinion that it did not lead to this verdict.

Now, 20 years ago, in the first inquest, the verdict was open.

Now, clearly, the family are very unhappy and what we are hearing

from them is a concern that there was no strong

So why did the coroner find it that way?

But the inquest also raised wider issues about the culture at Deepcut

In terms of the way in which the Army deals

with recruits and trainees, things are very different now.

They are right to say that, they are entitled to say that.

Where they really still have a problem is

This coroner referred to it, other coroners have referred

to it in other cases, and in other criminal cases,

and it remains the case that the Army really

In 2014, 24,000 serving men and women were polled and 90%

of them thought the Army had an overly sexualised culture,

and 39% of those people had had an upsetting incident.

It is way beyond the realm of other workplaces and this is a real issue.

Tonight, a BBC Two documentary broadcast testimony from other

A Corporal who was one of my instructors asked me to go

back to the female accommodation, so I went back and I walked

And he called me from the shower room.

And he pushed me up against the wall, And he started kissing me.

And then he put his hand up my skirt.

And with his other hands, started fondling my

One thing I'd learned from training is that you don't talk back

to your NCOs, and you don't fight back.

The tragedy of private Cheryl James is not just a story

It also shines a light on what its critics say

is the British Army's failure to face up to its darker side.

Lord Dannatt, former head of the Army joins us now.

After 20 years, two inquests, the family still don't feel

That's the real problem here, isnt it?

Of course it is, the first thing to say is, one has huge sympathy and

sorrow for the tragedy of Cheryl James losing her life. One expresses

huge sympathy towards her family and the families of the other three

soldiers who lost their lives at Deepcut 15, 20 years ago. It's a

tragedy and nothing will ever replace Cheryl James's life and the

life of her family all one can say is it an ongoing tragedy for them.

One can say more than that, one can say they don't feel they've had the

answers to this now. What has to happen for them to get that? It's

difficult for them not to feel they've had the answers, I

understand entirely. Of course this corona conducted his inquest of the

best of usability and came up with the conclusion he did. There's no

getting away from the fact all was not well by a long degree at Deepcut

20 years ago and Nicholas Blake QC conducted an investigation into

thousands six into Deepcut and the army accepted a lot of

responsibility things were not right. The decision was taken to

close Deepcut in the intervening years. Standards have improved, the

budgetary regime has been such it hasn't been possible to close

Deepcut, and things have changed. There's no getting away that things

are not right and I would say this to anybody listening to this and

what the shocking programme broadcast at 9pm on BBC Two, if I

can finish this point, that watched that programme, if there are things

that happen to them, allegations they want to put forward, they must

come forward to the police, these must be investigated, because where

things have not been done like they need to be investigated, people

investigated if necessary. The families as you know are calling for

a public inquiry and you'll be aware you were the former head of the

army. You must look back at some of this, it must have crossed your

desk, didn't you think, don't you wish, you had got to the bottom of

that? Two or three things: this has been investigated more than once,

Surrey Police investigated what the Royal Military Police investigated,

a case under investigation for some time. I accept entirely the Army has

found it difficult to deal with allegations of sexual harassment and

bullying, bullying is endemic. Should there be a public inquiry? I

think there should be, it the only practical and reasonable response to

this because people have a right to know. I stress again if there are

individuals who went through training at Deepcut and elsewhere

and believe they suffered bullying or sexual harassment that hasn't

been investigated, they should complain, if they are serving to the

service police, or to the civilian police, these things will be... It's

really important. You've just made that point before. It sounds as

though the army still has a problem with women. It started to recruit

women, yet it didn't give them any duty of care, wouldn't allow them to

get to padres when they needed them, it failed the women who needed help

and it hasn't changed much today, you heard from the lawyer. I have to

reject that it hasn't changed very much, the position described in the

programme at 9pm was quite appalling, that was 20 years ago.

Since Nicholas Blake QC investigated Deepcut in 2006, Ofsted inspect all

training establishments. The survey is from 2014. You have to allow me

to finish. Ofsted inspector or training establishments and in the

last round of inspections all were found to be either good or

excellent, things have changed. There's always room for improvement,

there can be no covering up if people have felt they've been abused

or wrongly treated, they must complain, it must be investigated.

Wrongdoers must be brought to book even 20 years later, it's really

important. If parents send young people to the Army, they must have

confidence the Army will look after them and not abuse them. It's really

critical and what makes our soldiers really good. We can't accept poorer

standards from anyone. Lord Danek. We've been talking a lot

about Europe, in case you hadn't noticed, but tonight,

we take you back to the man who had designs on the continent some 200

years before the EU - Boris Johnson, you might recall,

got rather a mixed press for comparing those who ran Brussels

to Napoleon and Hitler. Now the Booker-Prize winning

Australian novelist Thomas Keneally casts Bonaparte, at least,

in a different light. In his new novel, 'Napoleon's Last

Island', the Emperor's final exile on St Helena,

in the South Atlantic, becomes a metaphor for the way

unwanted foreigners are treated by Keneally's fellow countrymen,

and by others. He's been talking to our

Culture Editor, Stephen Smith. It's Boris's bogeyman,

Napoleon Bonaparte, Boney ended his days

on the inhospitable bluff They chose this island

in the South Atlantic to put him, a magnificent

place for detention. Only two real beaches

from which anyone could escape. The Emperor lived in a kind of grand

flat belonging to the East India He befriended the company's agent,

a Brit, and his family. A friendship which

eventually cost them dear. kind of exile, in

Australia, under a cloud. It was characteristic of the way

19th-century Britain hived off its undesirables

to Australia. Not only the convicts,

not only the working class, but also the unsatisfactory members

of the bourgeoisie and gentry. At the London library,

at ungodly o'clock this morning, Tom Keneally recalls

stumbling upon Napoleon's Aussie Is there any hard evidence Napoleon

ever wore women's clothing? Because he does in

the book, doesn't he? Yes, there is a rumour

he liked dressing She went to the wardrobe and found

items of clothing missing. He's a Frenchman, he

tried it all, I think. Some reviewers have seen

in the figure of Napoleon perhaps a metaphor for what

Australia and many others do with Yes, a number of us

have been campaigning for an end to the detention system

in Australia, which is a de facto Punishing people for seeking asylum,

which is not a crime And I think the same

tendency is occurring here But after all they are a problem

we partly made by our reckless And we're not, perhaps, the main

engines, the tyrants of the main engines of expulsion, but, you know,

in solving this problem, they've got Some here have advocated

adopting an Australian The writer says that's fine

when the normal channels work. But the normal channels

of immigration, for all of us, have been swamped

by the refugees of the world. We are not as kind in awarding

points to people He urges Britain to beware

the type of detention centre for unauthorised arrivals

that they have down under. The idea of locking

up will satisfy about ready percent of the population,

but the other 80, you can only get them to bear it,

to bear the national shame of it, if you lie

about who's in there. I profited from writing books

about scapegoating, so I can't sit Look at the snow, look

at the snow, look at the I lost a worker, I expect

to be compensated. By sheer chance, Tom Keneally heard

the story of Oskar Schindler, which became his novel

and Steven Spielberg's film. From a Holocaust

survivor called Poldek, who was selling him

a briefcase at the time. To look at a man like Poldek,

a vivid man, he used to say things to Spielberg, Stephen,

you can't win an Academy Awards with little furry animals, enough

with the little furry animals. And you can't look at a man

like that and work out why an entire regime considered that he had

to have his oxygen taken away from But all racial hysteria is the great

nonsense of history. Before we go, Nick Clegg solicited

the ire of our loquacious former London Mayor by suggesting

he was "Donald Trump It's not the first time

the blonde Brexiteer has been compared to Trump and,

if these images are anything to go by, it

may not be the last.