15/03/2017 Newsnight


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15/03/2017

In-depth investigation and analysis with Evan Davis. Topics include the Dutch election results, privacy at work and old people getting married.


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For the last year now - the story has been

:00:00.:00:00.

Have the Dutch just decided to stand in the way?

:00:00.:00:12.

in but the exit polls say the current Prime Minister

:00:13.:00:16.

Gabriel Gatehouse is in the Hague for us.

:00:17.:00:26.

No win for Geert Wilders but no doubt either he has shifted the

:00:27.:00:30.

terms of the political debate here in the Netherlands.

:00:31.:00:32.

Also tonight, the National Insurance rise is shoved firmly

:00:33.:00:34.

The Chancellor has back tracked on last week's big budget measure.

:00:35.:00:38.

Is it time to announce taxes - and budgets -

:00:39.:00:40.

Is it just the fashion or something more going on?

:00:41.:00:48.

The number of over 65s getting married is way up.

:00:49.:00:50.

We talked about it a lot and I think I had always said I don't want this

:00:51.:00:59.

ever to be a practical decision, it's got to be an emotional

:01:00.:01:00.

decision. We'll ask this agony aunt

:01:01.:01:02.

if it is to be recommended. The Dutch people have

:01:03.:01:12.

spoken and the answer is. Well, it's easier to say

:01:13.:01:25.

what the answer is not. Not good for the populist anti-EU

:01:26.:01:27.

anti immigrant Geert Wilders. He's up a little on last time,

:01:28.:01:31.

but well below his hopes. If you believe the exit polls,

:01:32.:01:33.

the Labour party there is facing wipe out, losing three quarters

:01:34.:01:38.

of its seats. Some of those, incidentally, to the

:01:39.:01:43.

green left. Not great for traditional parties

:01:44.:01:46.

generally - they are down. But the centre right party that

:01:47.:01:48.

did lead, still leads. So the Prime Minister Mark Rutte

:01:49.:01:52.

will have the first chance to build Let's talk to Gabriel Gatehouse -

:01:53.:01:55.

you might have seen his reports on the Dutch campaign

:01:56.:01:59.

trail, he's in the Hague. Give us your initial reaction to

:02:00.:02:07.

what we are hearing tonight? Well you cannot put any other spin on

:02:08.:02:12.

this other than it must be very disappointing for Geert Wilders. If

:02:13.:02:15.

you believe the polls and who does that these days, but if you had you

:02:16.:02:19.

might have expected him to have done twice as well as it looks like he

:02:20.:02:23.

has. It looks like he has got about 12 and a half percent of the vote

:02:24.:02:28.

giving him 19 seats, up four on before. The Prime Minister looks

:02:29.:02:34.

like he's getting 31, that is down ten but enough for him to have a

:02:35.:02:38.

first stab at forming a coalition. He will need at least three other

:02:39.:02:41.

parties to come in with him to do that and he has already said he will

:02:42.:02:45.

not work with Geert Wilders. The other big headline of the night as

:02:46.:02:51.

you mentioned is the wipe-out of the traditional Labour Party, losing

:02:52.:02:55.

three quarters of their seats, worst result in their history. Some of the

:02:56.:03:01.

smaller parties have done quite well by contrast, Democrats 66, the sort

:03:02.:03:09.

of Lib Dems, are up and so quite a diffuse landscape here. A lot of

:03:10.:03:15.

divisions, where does this leave the Netherlands for the next few years?

:03:16.:03:21.

There are two ways of looking at it, the Prime Minister told Newsnight

:03:22.:03:23.

last night that the Netherlands would not be the next domino to fall

:03:24.:03:28.

to populism and in one sense it hasn't. In the other sense the Prime

:03:29.:03:32.

Minister fought this campaign squarely on Geert Wilders Australia

:03:33.:03:40.

ground, telling Dutch people of immigrant backgrounds that unless

:03:41.:03:43.

they behaved normally they could get lost. His handling of the Turkey

:03:44.:03:49.

crisis, much of that in part to do with the perception that he was seen

:03:50.:03:53.

as weak on Dutch identity and immigration and Geert Wilders was

:03:54.:03:57.

seen as strong. I think overall we can see a definite shift in Dutch

:03:58.:04:01.

politics to the right. Thank you very much Gabriel.

:04:02.:04:03.

Well, the Dutch election had really been watched

:04:04.:04:05.

as the first stop this year, in the grand tour of national

:04:06.:04:08.

elections that are pitching traditional politics

:04:09.:04:10.

against less conventional challengers.

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Populist politics has dominated the headlines for the last year. It had

:04:18.:04:24.

a good run. But 2017 was always seen as the year that would determine its

:04:25.:04:29.

long-term fate. So where does populism go now? You might think

:04:30.:04:35.

there are three broad scenarios. Number one populism has its brief

:04:36.:04:38.

moment and then just fades into the background. After all it has come

:04:39.:04:46.

and gone before. In France in the 60s huge waves were made, the

:04:47.:04:51.

shopkeeper fed up at his sometimes seen as far right, he supported the

:04:52.:04:56.

Socialists in later years. His movement fizzled out. In the 2000

:04:57.:05:02.

and anti-globalisation movement disrupted World Trade Organisation

:05:03.:05:07.

business. Its hero stood in the French presidential election of 2007

:05:08.:05:14.

but only got 1% of the vote. The second scenario is that the populist

:05:15.:05:17.

outsiders become a permanent fixture. Either in government as in

:05:18.:05:21.

the case of President Trump or as the official opposition. Certainly

:05:22.:05:27.

populism is seen as part of the furniture in countries like Russia

:05:28.:05:30.

and Turkey where it dominates government. But what about in the

:05:31.:05:35.

West? Are such parties able to displace the centre left with an

:05:36.:05:39.

appeal to blue-collar voters? Some sign of that in the Netherlands.

:05:40.:05:43.

There is a third scenario, the populist parties disappear but their

:05:44.:05:50.

influence lives on. Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a

:05:51.:05:54.

success of it. One theory about Theresa May is that she is trying to

:05:55.:05:59.

co-opt just enough of the populist programme to fend off the populist

:06:00.:06:04.

parties. In the Netherlands it may be that Mark Rutte has kept the

:06:05.:06:06.

populists at bay by doing just that. Marietje Schaake is a Dutch MEP

:06:07.:06:11.

for the Democrats 66 Party. They are the only "progressive

:06:12.:06:14.

party", in her words, to finish in the top four,

:06:15.:06:16.

according to those exit polls. Good evening to you, it's a

:06:17.:06:28.

complicated picture tonight, who do you see as the winners and who do

:06:29.:06:35.

you see as the losers? Well it is complicated but there is also a lot

:06:36.:06:38.

of reason to celebrate. I think we see a clear again for those parties

:06:39.:06:42.

like my own who have had an unequivocal progressive agenda, to

:06:43.:06:48.

look beyond our borders, the European cooperation and really

:06:49.:06:51.

stand firmly against the Nationalists who certainly did not

:06:52.:06:55.

do as well as they may have hoped or others may have feared. But one

:06:56.:07:00.

reason is potentially the Nationalists did not do as well as

:07:01.:07:03.

they had hoped is that Mark Rutte made a pitch to the people and said

:07:04.:07:06.

I can give you that if that is what you want and it seems to have

:07:07.:07:09.

stabilised his position to some large degree. Well we have seen the

:07:10.:07:17.

Prime Minister but also the Christian Democrats increasingly in

:07:18.:07:20.

the days leading up to the election moving to the right and seeing more

:07:21.:07:24.

and more what would be extreme things a couple of years ago towards

:07:25.:07:29.

immigrants, more Nationalists bowls like singing the national anthem

:07:30.:07:34.

standing up which was a proposal from the Christian Democrats. That

:07:35.:07:38.

is not the course we have chosen as the Democrats 66 and I am encouraged

:07:39.:07:45.

to see there is a lot of support for this other narrative, international

:07:46.:07:50.

media have been looking at Geert Wilders but there is a strong other

:07:51.:07:54.

story to be told tonight. The progressive parties with an

:07:55.:07:58.

open-minded open economy open society agenda have won tonight.

:07:59.:08:03.

That is interesting because what you are seeing is the centre-left

:08:04.:08:07.

squeezed out, they are squeezed out between these two big forces of if

:08:08.:08:11.

you like populist right-wing and progressive liberalism as you would

:08:12.:08:16.

describe it and the two sides of Dutch society are now polarising

:08:17.:08:23.

around two different positions. Indeed there is polarisation between

:08:24.:08:27.

conservative and progressive I would say. There is a couple of parties on

:08:28.:08:32.

each side and I think the story of the Labour Party is more one of a

:08:33.:08:36.

four year-long coalition with the party they said they would never

:08:37.:08:40.

govern with in the previous campaign. I think that has been a

:08:41.:08:43.

big disappointment for their constituents. Marietje Schaake,

:08:44.:08:46.

thank you for your time. Catherine De Vries is a Professor

:08:47.:08:48.

of Politics at University of Essex. But works here and studies the whole

:08:49.:08:59.

of European politics. It's a fascinating picture because first

:09:00.:09:01.

thing is the traditional parties have not done very well and the

:09:02.:09:05.

outside parties have done quite well. I think that is a phenomenon

:09:06.:09:10.

we are seeing in many West European or European political systems

:09:11.:09:13.

overall that actually this is maybe not even the story about the

:09:14.:09:17.

strength of populists but the weakness of mainstream politics. But

:09:18.:09:21.

not a good night for Geert Wilders, would you say this is one of those

:09:22.:09:26.

where it stops the populist bandwagon in its tracks? You have to

:09:27.:09:30.

be careful making those kind of sweeping arguments but I think Geert

:09:31.:09:33.

Wilders was expecting more from tonight. I think the people who

:09:34.:09:38.

follow Dutch politics closely, it was clear this election campaign he

:09:39.:09:43.

has not been able to cater towards this anti-immigrant, anti-EU feeling

:09:44.:09:48.

as successful as he has in the past. And now he has an election result

:09:49.:09:51.

which is very similar to some of those he has had in previous years.

:09:52.:09:56.

I think this is, he put the bar very high for himself and did not meet

:09:57.:10:02.

it. Where does that kind of populism go? You could think it is a fad, you

:10:03.:10:07.

could think it is a fixture, which would you think? Not to be too

:10:08.:10:12.

academic but we think there are three ways to deal with populists,

:10:13.:10:16.

one is to ignore, that seems to have not been a very successful strategy

:10:17.:10:21.

in Western Europe for a long time. The second is to co-opt and that is

:10:22.:10:26.

something Marietje Schaake was just talking about, taking firm positions

:10:27.:10:34.

in the Turkish row we saw and anti-immigrant. I think some people

:10:35.:10:40.

have suggested that has helped Mark Rutte in the election campaign. The

:10:41.:10:45.

third is to choose an attacking position. Take them on. Take them on

:10:46.:10:51.

and that is something the green left has done much more successfully than

:10:52.:10:55.

Democrats 66. A millennial 31-year-old party leader has done

:10:56.:11:00.

exceptionally well and gained 12 seats. It does set an interesting

:11:01.:11:06.

tone for the French and German elections, that a more positive,

:11:07.:11:09.

pro-Europe, pro-immigration stamps could perhaps help weather the

:11:10.:11:17.

populist rise. A big story in Europe and the same in France, the

:11:18.:11:21.

centre-left, the mainstream left, it's not going to make the top three

:11:22.:11:26.

in France, it's been terribly badly damaged here, what is going on? One

:11:27.:11:31.

interesting element is we think of social Democratic party, the Labour

:11:32.:11:36.

Party label to be toxic, the story of the last year is social Democrats

:11:37.:11:41.

not doing well. But one politician putting that into perspective is

:11:42.:11:46.

Martin Shilts doing very well in Germany. Thank you very much

:11:47.:11:53.

Catherine De Vries. Well, Philip Hammond's

:11:54.:11:56.

budget didn't last a week. He backtracked on his increase

:11:57.:11:58.

in National Insurance for the self-employed today,

:11:59.:12:00.

under pressure from colleagues. Some are saying the Brexiteers

:12:01.:12:02.

were out to get him What is your take on what happened

:12:03.:12:16.

today? It was each immolating U-turn from the canceller -- it was a

:12:17.:12:22.

humiliating U-turn for the Chancellor. Philip Hammond believes

:12:23.:12:31.

he and the Prime Minister are equally culpable. In the first place

:12:32.:12:34.

he originally wanted a budget that was not going to spend any more or

:12:35.:12:38.

raise any more and he buckled on both. The second thing is number ten

:12:39.:12:42.

had full notice of this rise in national insurance for the

:12:43.:12:46.

self-employed. But I'm hearing the sound of recriminations from within

:12:47.:12:50.

the Treasury, finger-pointing at officials and ministers from the

:12:51.:12:53.

George Osborne era who said the manifesto was dealt with in

:12:54.:12:56.

legislation after the election where they said they would not be raising

:12:57.:13:01.

national insurance for the employed. It was silent on the self-employed

:13:02.:13:06.

hence the problem. But this budget U-turn comes at a moment when the

:13:07.:13:10.

challenges are really mounting for this government. So here is my film

:13:11.:13:11.

looking at those. How easy life can seem in the cocoon

:13:12.:13:28.

of a honeymoon. Goodwill carried along by the gentle sea breeze and

:13:29.:13:35.

not a dark cloud on the horizon. And then there is the return home to

:13:36.:13:39.

reality and a whole host of obstacles. In one of the fastest

:13:40.:13:44.

U-turns in recent budget history Philip Hammond today announced he

:13:45.:13:49.

was abandoning a rise in national insurance contributions for the

:13:50.:13:52.

self-employed. It's a huge clock up which comes from a number of things,

:13:53.:13:57.

firstly it comes from what seems to be a failure to even look at the

:13:58.:14:01.

Conservative manifesto of not even two years ago. I think that is

:14:02.:14:06.

explained not by casualness our lack of work, I think what explains that

:14:07.:14:10.

is that Theresa May and her team do not think of the 2015 manifesto as

:14:11.:14:21.

the manifesto. Just a few short weeks ago the path ahead seemed

:14:22.:14:23.

clear for Theresa May after the Tories defeated Labour in the

:14:24.:14:25.

Copeland by-election. Now her government is heading obstacles.

:14:26.:14:27.

Sometimes down to their own mistakes and sometimes down to the historic

:14:28.:14:31.

challenge of negotiating Britain's exit from the EU and what that means

:14:32.:14:33.

for all parts of the UK. The man charged with running Brexit

:14:34.:14:48.

is sometimes charged with well, not quite doing his homework and today

:14:49.:14:53.

David Davis admitted that he had not carried out a study into the

:14:54.:14:57.

economic impact of a cliff edge Brexit. If you mean in my time, no.

:14:58.:15:02.

I was shocked that he was so complacent that he was prescribing

:15:03.:15:07.

that we should have no deal rather than a bad deal, the government

:15:08.:15:11.

haven't done any work on the economy, people's jobs, investments,

:15:12.:15:17.

what livelihoods would be. I think it is incredibly irresponsible. One

:15:18.:15:21.

leading Brexiteer thought David Davies had been perfectly sensible.

:15:22.:15:26.

If for some reason with new government is coming through in the

:15:27.:15:29.

major EU countries there is a view that they want to be punitive and is

:15:30.:15:34.

not a relationship I want to have with a trade environment. And rather

:15:35.:15:44.

work with them in the WTO framework which clear and everyone signs up

:15:45.:15:46.

to. And there's always another obstacle just around the corner. The

:15:47.:15:49.

SNP are using Brexit to demand a second independence referendum. One

:15:50.:15:53.

Unionist says the Prime Minister isn't helping the UK case. In

:15:54.:15:59.

Westminster they are comparing the present Prime Minister with Margaret

:16:00.:16:03.

Thatcher is a favourable comparison. In Scotland when they compare the

:16:04.:16:06.

present Prime Minister with Margaret Hodge it is the opposite because of

:16:07.:16:09.

course Margaret Thatcher was universally disliked in Scotland.

:16:10.:16:13.

Anyone who resembles Margaret Thatcher, even to the smallest

:16:14.:16:18.

extent, is not going to go down well with the majority of people in

:16:19.:16:23.

Scotland. One veteran of Gordon Brown's Downing Street believes

:16:24.:16:26.

Theresa May is now discovering the true challenge of being a Prime

:16:27.:16:30.

Minister. I think the honeymoon is coming to an end

:16:31.:17:09.

because the easy part of a Brexit dominated government for her was

:17:10.:17:13.

always going to be the run-up to the triggering of Article 50 moment. The

:17:14.:17:15.

minute Article 50 is triggered this when the hard work begins, making

:17:16.:17:18.

decisions about who you will annoy, who you will favour, which business

:17:19.:17:20.

you will say yes to, or no to, whether you are hard rig ht soft

:17:21.:17:23.

left, whether the Tory party will be more annoyed by your choices. That

:17:24.:17:26.

will be her problem from now and you'd better get used to it because

:17:27.:17:29.

this is the territory she will be in for a long time. Her unusually

:17:30.:17:31.

lengthy honeymoon will soon be a distant memory for Theresa must hope

:17:32.:17:34.

that her capacity for hard work will ensure that she faces a smooth road

:17:35.:17:36.

ahead. Nick Watt will be back with us in a moment she must hope that

:17:37.:17:39.

her capacity for hard work will ensure that she faces a smooth road

:17:40.:17:42.

ahead. Nick Watt will be back with us in a moment.

:17:43.:17:43.

Let's talk a bit more about tax and the national

:17:44.:17:45.

One thing that almost every tax expert thinks,

:17:46.:17:48.

is that Phillip Hammond was on to something,

:17:49.:17:50.

in arguing that we need to sort out the lower tax

:17:51.:17:53.

Firstly, it loses the government revenue, it's not fair that rich

:17:54.:17:56.

self-employed people pay less tax than poorer workers.

:17:57.:17:58.

And it encourages employers to sack workers, and take them

:17:59.:18:01.

So how come something seen as sensible has been mishandled

:18:02.:18:04.

Maybe we shouldn't have a Budget where things are sprung

:18:05.:18:08.

I'm joined by Conservative MP David Morris, who's the prime

:18:09.:18:11.

minister's 'Ambassador for the Self-Employed'.

:18:12.:18:12.

And Jill Rutter from the Institute for Government, who's worked on tax

:18:13.:18:16.

policy in the Treasury and Number 10.

:18:17.:18:18.

Djourou should we just get rid of the budget, have a debate before

:18:19.:18:21.

anything and then not this problem. We should have fewer budgets and

:18:22.:18:24.

Philip Hammond has agreed to that by abolishing the spring budget, this

:18:25.:18:27.

one will be his last, he might be relieved about that. And he did less

:18:28.:18:30.

in this one, a good move. Still that ancient process where the budget is

:18:31.:18:32.

shrouded in secrecy and there's very little consultation on the measures,

:18:33.:18:36.

chancellors have rabbits that they announce Djourou, should we just get

:18:37.:18:39.

rid of the budget, have the debate before anything and then not this

:18:40.:18:41.

problem. We should have fewer budgets and Philip Hammond has

:18:42.:18:43.

agreed to that by abolishing the spring budget, this one will be his

:18:44.:18:46.

last, he might be relieved about that. And he did less in this one, a

:18:47.:18:49.

good move. Still that ancient process where the budget is shrouded

:18:50.:18:51.

in secrecy and there's very little consultation on the measures,

:18:52.:18:53.

chancellors have rabbits that explosions happen sooner and sooner

:18:54.:18:55.

so actually lasting a week was better than George Osborne's last

:18:56.:18:57.

spring budget when he was reversing by question Time, the day after they

:18:58.:18:59.

should ask themselves, chancellors, whether they are well served by

:19:00.:19:02.

this. So on taxi would say, here is a direction this, we need to work

:19:03.:19:08.

out a facing? Philip Hammond trailed in the Autumn Statement that he was

:19:09.:19:16.

going to consult on to look at the issue. So they laid the groundwork

:19:17.:19:23.

for doing a serious review exposing the evidence base, building

:19:24.:19:27.

consensus and laying the groundwork for some long-term reforms. Instead

:19:28.:19:30.

they decided the rabbit had to be let out of the hatch early in the

:19:31.:19:34.

budget, whether at the last minute to pay for social care, who knows.

:19:35.:19:39.

What they have done is set back the cause for serious reform for the

:19:40.:19:48.

rest of this before that the Prime Minister had said at this review by

:19:49.:19:51.

Matthew Taylor's bringing in Tony Blair's former head of policy to

:19:52.:19:53.

look at the issue. So they laid the groundwork for doing a serious

:19:54.:19:55.

review exposing the evidence base, building consensus and laying the

:19:56.:19:57.

groundwork for some long-term reforms. Instead they decided the

:19:58.:20:00.

rabbit had to be let out of the hatch early in the budget, whether

:20:01.:20:03.

at the last minute to pay for social care, who knows. What they have done

:20:04.:20:05.

is set back the cause for serious reform for the rest of this

:20:06.:20:08.

Parliament. It's off the cards David, you wanted this. Before this

:20:09.:20:10.

was a good idea. When I was Minister for the self-employed, I had been an

:20:11.:20:13.

MP for 20 years and one problem for the self-employed is how they sort

:20:14.:20:16.

out their pensions. I'm still having problems, I was at college in 1983,

:20:17.:20:19.

this is how complicated it is. What we saw today was a better deal than

:20:20.:20:22.

what we saw yesterday because it is actually... You supported the budget

:20:23.:20:24.

and know you support the U-turn? Minister for the self-employed, I

:20:25.:20:27.

had been an MP for 20 years and one problem for the self-employed is how

:20:28.:20:29.

they sort out their pensions. I'm still having problems, I was at

:20:30.:20:31.

college in 1983, this is how complicated it is. What we saw today

:20:32.:20:34.

was a better deal than what we saw yesterday because it is actually...

:20:35.:20:37.

You supported the budget and now you support the I thought it was a good

:20:38.:20:40.

deal because we are trying to harmonise the self-employed. I

:20:41.:20:42.

floated this idea two years ago saying let's get rid of class toyou

:20:43.:20:45.

put money into it and get nothing from it's complicated that it is

:20:46.:20:47.

unfair for Rich self-employed people to pay less tax than poorer workers?

:20:48.:20:49.

That is what we've got now. Everything is on class four.

:20:50.:20:52.

Yesterday, you agree that it is unfair for rich self-employed people

:20:53.:20:55.

to pay less tax than poorer workers? That is what we've got now.

:20:56.:20:57.

Everything is on class four. The profits of the 40,000 that on. Mayo

:20:58.:21:01.

suggest that the real problem was the manifesto commitment. We can

:21:02.:21:04.

blame the budget process but it was the manifesto high on. Mayo suggest

:21:05.:21:08.

that the real problem was the manifesto commitment. We can blame

:21:09.:21:15.

the budget process but it was the manifesto they had made such a

:21:16.:21:17.

radical and firm commitment in the manifesto to doing nothing. Everyone

:21:18.:21:21.

who the time that the only people they were binding with themselves so

:21:22.:21:26.

to take the law to do that seemed said at the time that the only

:21:27.:21:28.

people they were binding with themselves so to take the law to do

:21:29.:21:35.

that seemed strange the grid. You had no announcement planned for the

:21:36.:21:41.

day, what shall we do, say they will be attacks, that's easy, we won't do

:21:42.:21:44.

that anyway. Which is the cavalier way we go about it. -- they will be

:21:45.:21:51.

taxed. This was talked about when you before the election. What got

:21:52.:21:57.

them was the pledge not to touch national insurance ever! In the

:21:58.:22:03.

budget of 2015, Sajid Javid has announced this although it's gone

:22:04.:22:07.

under the radar, now we've actually got a better deal for the

:22:08.:22:09.

self-employed. They are now paying the same as everyone, getting a tax

:22:10.:22:16.

break because they are not paying ?145 in the class tos. The good news

:22:17.:22:23.

was let out early, the abolition of class two. The bad news about class

:22:24.:22:28.

four came later. You'd had the good news already, it's all bad news. We

:22:29.:22:33.

need to do much more strategic approach, thinking in advance what

:22:34.:22:37.

you wanted to do over the life of a parliament. Theresa May said

:22:38.:22:40.

something interesting in the two and a half hours she ran for the

:22:41.:22:44.

leadership before Andrea Leadsom withdrew. She said, we need to have

:22:45.:22:50.

a serious conversation about how we pay for the state. And because she

:22:51.:22:54.

became Prime Minister within two and a half days we lost that

:22:55.:22:59.

conversation. Do you want that conversation David? We are having it

:23:00.:23:05.

already. We did have the consultation before... Your party

:23:06.:23:10.

keeps making rash promises like we won't touch any taxes and in

:23:11.:23:15.

government it has to constrain itself! If you think about what

:23:16.:23:18.

happened in the general election that's just gone we did talk about

:23:19.:23:29.

abolishing Class 2s. And people in classical can get maternity pay

:23:30.:23:34.

which was one of my ideas. Stay with us, if you would. You both.

:23:35.:23:39.

Nick Watt is still with us - there's been more movement

:23:40.:23:41.

Allegations hurting the Conservatives. 12 police forces have

:23:42.:23:52.

asked charges to be considered concerning expenses. This relates to

:23:53.:23:58.

the long running saga exposed by Channel 4 News that the Tories

:23:59.:24:03.

inappropriately used facilities funded at a national level to

:24:04.:24:06.

campaign locally. The biggest examples being those bus tours

:24:07.:24:12.

around marginal constituencies. Car McCartney, one Tory MP being

:24:13.:24:16.

investigated wrote to the party chairman, furious. I've learned this

:24:17.:24:22.

evening that Tory MPs are giving an ultimatum to the Tory chairman, is a

:24:23.:24:25.

Patrick McLoughlin, saying sort this out by the end of the week. Write to

:24:26.:24:30.

the electoral commission. Say it is your fault, pay a fine of ?20,000

:24:31.:24:35.

and if you don't will go on strike. I'm not quite sure what going on

:24:36.:24:42.

strike will mean. David, you have some history of this because the

:24:43.:24:45.

battle bus visited your seed when you were fighting the election. You

:24:46.:24:52.

were investigated -- your seat. It was a carbon copy, the Lancashire

:24:53.:24:56.

Police interviewed me and saw fit to take it no further. They haven't

:24:57.:25:02.

gone to this CBS? There were reports on BBC Two two weeks ago that there

:25:03.:25:08.

is nothing further to be answered. Did the party let you down? Did they

:25:09.:25:12.

say that the battle bus was a national expense and you will find?

:25:13.:25:18.

Yes, we all got the same e-mail from Mark Clark at the time, he was

:25:19.:25:22.

behind the battle bus project and he said it was a national spend. You

:25:23.:25:29.

all had a sincere belief, that's the claim, essentially, that you were

:25:30.:25:33.

cleared for this spending. I honestly believe not one member of

:25:34.:25:37.

Parliament is guilty of anything. But the party is guilty of something

:25:38.:25:43.

because it misinformed you. The Labour Party, the Lib Dems, Ukip,

:25:44.:25:47.

everyone had the same kind of project going on. In fact the Tories

:25:48.:25:52.

were late in the day to do this kind of project because the Liberal

:25:53.:25:54.

Democrats have been doing it for generations. One problem that the

:25:55.:26:01.

Tories had was that you had few activists. On the ground, the

:26:02.:26:06.

membership is not what it was. Using battle buses and ferrying people

:26:07.:26:11.

around was a big part of the Tory campaign. In your seat wasn't that

:26:12.:26:17.

the case? No. My case was straightforward. We did not want the

:26:18.:26:23.

battle bus. That was said from day one. We were instructed to have the

:26:24.:26:27.

battle bus, it was the same as everyone else, which is what the

:26:28.:26:32.

parties do. They told you, you will take the battle bus, it's coming on

:26:33.:26:37.

Tuesday... We were told it was a national spend, nothing more

:26:38.:26:42.

sinister, deeper, or clandestinely. David, thank you for staying on and

:26:43.:26:45.

clarifying that. Thank you. Are you someone who likes

:26:46.:26:53.

collecting data on yourself - monitoring your sleep,

:26:54.:26:56.

footsteps, heart rate? I mean seriously doing that, not

:26:57.:26:57.

just the first few days of January? Well, we are potentially

:26:58.:27:00.

on the cusp of something big - a chance not just for us to measure

:27:01.:27:03.

everything we do, For companies, the benefits

:27:04.:27:06.

are clear - but what Our technology editor David Grossman

:27:07.:27:09.

looks at whether we should set limits on how much data companies

:27:10.:27:12.

can gather about their workers. Clocking up the steps

:27:13.:27:15.

on the way to the office. Along with other workers

:27:16.:27:19.

at their firm, Beate and Rebecca And there are prizes for who can

:27:20.:27:21.

rack up the most impressive numbers. I kind of think of myself

:27:22.:27:27.

as being quite fit and healthy. But it's only really when I started

:27:28.:27:30.

using it that I realised I didn't actually do that many steps

:27:31.:27:33.

on a daily basis, so I think it's I've really enjoyed that,

:27:34.:27:36.

knowing how many I'm doing and thinking about improving

:27:37.:27:40.

it every day. This is my personal

:27:41.:27:41.

individual dashboard. But isn't there a something perhaps

:27:42.:27:43.

a bit creepy about sharing this sort Are you at all worried that it blurs

:27:44.:27:50.

the line between your job So for those of us that doesn't

:27:51.:27:57.

want to partake you don't And for the rest of us that do it

:27:58.:28:05.

just adds a little bit The company says it's

:28:06.:28:09.

all about getting a healthier The data the devices

:28:10.:28:13.

generate is very much You have to take into context

:28:14.:28:17.

that the wearable device itself is optional so not everybody

:28:18.:28:24.

will use them and of course some people may give

:28:25.:28:27.

them to their husbands, their wives, their children,

:28:28.:28:29.

so you have to be careful. But we get high-level

:28:30.:28:31.

anonymised data, but not Well it can help tell you how

:28:32.:28:33.

many people are engaging with the wearable device

:28:34.:28:40.

in the first place. And it might give you some broad

:28:41.:28:42.

identification of sort of the levels of activity,

:28:43.:28:44.

maybe in certain departments, certain groups of people,

:28:45.:28:47.

you might be able to find But it won't be at

:28:48.:28:49.

an individual level. Wearable tech at work

:28:50.:28:52.

is a growing trend. According to analysis by ABI

:28:53.:29:00.

research, companies gave out 200 million wearable devices

:29:01.:29:02.

to employees last year. They predict that will rise

:29:03.:29:04.

to 500 million a year by 2021. The rise of wearable technology

:29:05.:29:08.

obviously offers fantastic insights for companies,

:29:09.:29:11.

but at what cost? Just how much of our personal

:29:12.:29:16.

information should we be invited to share with employers in the name

:29:17.:29:20.

of efficiency and health? For example, there is no doubt that

:29:21.:29:30.

well rested workers perform But does that mean we should

:29:31.:29:33.

allow employers to keep an eye on our shut-eye,

:29:34.:29:39.

just because the technology There may be a case for,

:29:40.:29:41.

say, airline pilots, According to one pressure

:29:42.:29:44.

group we are in danger of trading our souls in return

:29:45.:29:48.

for a few flashy trinkets. Well in the case of wearables

:29:49.:29:54.

I think employers are now starting to say, oh,

:29:55.:29:57.

no, no, no, we will give you this wearable and you'll get free gym

:29:58.:30:03.

membership, or we'll help reduce your health care insurance

:30:04.:30:06.

costs or, if you lose this much weight or you get this much sleep

:30:07.:30:09.

we will provide you Employers are going to be

:30:10.:30:11.

quite savvy at trying to encourage employees to think

:30:12.:30:14.

they are going to get Actually long term the benefit

:30:15.:30:17.

does go to the employer, Because for all those benefits

:30:18.:30:22.

that the employee is going to get they are also going to be under

:30:23.:30:27.

a level of surveillance that many will see as completely inappropriate

:30:28.:30:30.

and a breach of their private lives and their private selves

:30:31.:30:32.

within the workplace. But this kind of technology

:30:33.:30:34.

is rather old hat. It's just the start

:30:35.:30:36.

of what's possible. Add a microphone, add Bluetooth

:30:37.:30:40.

proximity sensors and employers will be able to plot a map

:30:41.:30:42.

of how their employees Humanised describes itself

:30:43.:30:45.

as a people analytics company. They use smart ID badges

:30:46.:30:51.

which record who an employee is talking to and in

:30:52.:30:54.

what tone of voice. It allows employers

:30:55.:30:56.

to see the human network on which their organisation

:30:57.:31:00.

is running, with some We don't share individual

:31:01.:31:02.

data with companies. We don't track the amount of times

:31:03.:31:07.

you go to the bathroom. But the idea is if you don't

:31:08.:31:12.

want to participate you can even choose to wear a fake badge,

:31:13.:31:17.

one doesn't collect any data. And we think that's important,

:31:18.:31:20.

right, because at a high level, if you force employees

:31:21.:31:23.

to try to wear this sort of thing, if you're able to track where people

:31:24.:31:26.

go, any benefit you get from this technology would be dwarfed

:31:27.:31:29.

by the negative reaction people We are very much at the beginning

:31:30.:31:31.

of what's possible. So far the law in this area has not

:31:32.:31:39.

got much further than some rather Even those at the cutting-edge

:31:40.:31:43.

of workplace monitoring think We absolutely need more

:31:44.:31:47.

regulation around this space. Technology in general tends

:31:48.:31:55.

to outpace regulation But this technology has

:31:56.:31:58.

been coming along now for a while and there are obviously

:31:59.:32:03.

benefits both to individuals as well as companies,

:32:04.:32:06.

but we need to make sure that we protect individual privacy

:32:07.:32:08.

moving forward because again, if we don't do that people

:32:09.:32:12.

will start doing the wrong thing with this and again that

:32:13.:32:14.

will of course be terrible for the individuals involved

:32:15.:32:20.

but also, even just from an industry perspective, that will affect us

:32:21.:32:24.

moving forward as well, if there are people

:32:25.:32:26.

operating in the wrong way. Employee monitoring has been around

:32:27.:32:32.

as long as paid work itself. Well, I think it's

:32:33.:32:42.

something foreign. What has changed is how

:32:43.:32:54.

cheap and all pervasive Now the only limits are ones

:32:55.:32:56.

we choose as a society to set. Tonight, it's David Goodhart

:32:57.:33:09.

of the think tank Policy Exchange and author of the new book The Road

:33:10.:33:17.

to Somewhere: The Populist Revolt In the five years to 2014,

:33:18.:33:20.

the Office for National Statistics has revealed there was a dramatic

:33:21.:35:42.

increase in the number of over At most other ages, marriage

:35:43.:35:45.

rates have generally The actual numbers of

:35:46.:35:51.

pensionable people getting married are still quite low -

:35:52.:35:59.

but the upward trend is striking. And I saw you and I

:36:00.:36:02.

thought aaaahhhh! And I walked over to say

:36:03.:36:11.

hello to you and you'd And things were never

:36:12.:36:23.

the same again afterwards. Being married is the

:36:24.:36:34.

biggest commitment It's the most public

:36:35.:36:37.

and private thing Sometimes getting married

:36:38.:36:40.

makes sense through shared assets and pensions

:36:41.:36:46.

and things like that. I had always said that

:36:47.:36:49.

I didn't want it to be a practical decision, but more

:36:50.:36:53.

of an emotional decision. Jane Falkingham is the Director

:36:54.:36:55.

of the ESRC Centre for Population Change she joins us

:36:56.:37:08.

from Southampton and Virginia Ironside is a journalist,

:37:09.:37:10.

author and agony aunt Good evening to you both, let's

:37:11.:37:19.

start on why these rates have gone up, what do you think has been

:37:20.:37:24.

driving at Jane Falkingham? If you think about people aged over 65,

:37:25.:37:30.

they were born in the 1940s and 1950s and these are the first

:37:31.:37:36.

cohorts who have undergone large proportions are undergoing

:37:37.:37:38.

divorcees. So they may well have got divorced in their 40s and 50s and

:37:39.:37:43.

have been available to get married again in their 60s. Of course.

:37:44.:37:49.

Virginia I have heard there is a technology thing going on, dating

:37:50.:37:53.

apps are not just for the young and older people use them as well, is

:37:54.:37:58.

that part of what is going on? Yes, but dating is different to getting

:37:59.:38:03.

married. Yes but you have to start somewhere. I don't know why they

:38:04.:38:07.

can't just hang out together, beat together, why do they have to get

:38:08.:38:12.

married? Marriage seems so strange for a generation that was young in

:38:13.:38:17.

the 60s, that believed in living together, that thought of marriage

:38:18.:38:22.

is just a bit of paper. Do you know people of the later age group who

:38:23.:38:25.

are getting married and do you know others who are cohabiting or playing

:38:26.:38:31.

around? I know people who are together and have been together for

:38:32.:38:36.

a long time in their old age but have not married. And I know a

:38:37.:38:40.

couple who are married but lived in separate homes. I think that's an

:38:41.:38:45.

odd thing because neither of them want to give up their

:38:46.:38:48.

self-sufficiency, they only want to see each other at certain times so

:38:49.:38:52.

why they want to actually get married I don't know. Because it

:38:53.:38:56.

also raises incredible difficulties with the children, wills, who gets

:38:57.:39:05.

what and when. The other thing that has happened is different attitudes

:39:06.:39:09.

to the independence of women which must play a big part in all of this

:39:10.:39:15.

right? Yes, women are far more economically independent than they

:39:16.:39:18.

were in the past and particularly this cohort, again this will be the

:39:19.:39:22.

first generation of women retiring with pensions in their own right and

:39:23.:39:26.

they will be economically independent so I am also somewhat

:39:27.:39:30.

surprised we are seeing this rise in marriage rates. But it is from a low

:39:31.:39:37.

base and we have more people available to be married. Life

:39:38.:39:40.

expectancy has also gone up so obviously, you may think of yourself

:39:41.:39:45.

when you reach 65 as much younger than people thought when it was 30

:39:46.:39:51.

or 40 years ago. Yes, a 65-year-old woman has about another 25 years. Do

:39:52.:39:56.

you think loneliness has a lot to do with it? I think that's quite

:39:57.:40:03.

tricky, again, I did look at the data earlier today and most of these

:40:04.:40:07.

marriages are taking place of people who are fairly, around 65-74 and

:40:08.:40:16.

actually that age group are still fairly socially active. It's a

:40:17.:40:20.

little bit later on in old age where you might expect loneliness to kick

:40:21.:40:25.

in and social isolation due to people not being able to physically

:40:26.:40:30.

get out and about. Virginia you do not seem that keen on this new

:40:31.:40:35.

fashion! But it is isolation in much later life as Jane has just said and

:40:36.:40:41.

maybe this is a way of protecting yourself? Again but you don't have

:40:42.:40:45.

to marry. Marion does bring with it a lot of knots which need untied.

:40:46.:40:52.

What is bothering you? What I am talking about is the will aspect and

:40:53.:41:02.

when there are two lots of children, two people get married. One is

:41:03.:41:05.

living in the family home, the other one dies, it is a nightmare and that

:41:06.:41:09.

is something I think a lot of people don't think about. You have got the

:41:10.:41:16.

families in the background. Yes, exactly, interestingly I think Jane

:41:17.:41:20.

might agree that it was men of over 65 who got more married than women

:41:21.:41:25.

and I can sort of see that, they might want a housekeeper. Jane, one

:41:26.:41:30.

other thing, what are the trends on divorce amongst older people? Often

:41:31.:41:34.

when children have maybe left home or go on on to lead adult lives you

:41:35.:41:39.

are left spending quite a long time together? That's right, divorce

:41:40.:41:46.

rates are rising fairly rapidly in later life, there is this new group

:41:47.:41:50.

called the Silver splitters and we have done work at the centre where

:41:51.:41:53.

we were looking at the impact of divorce in later life on the

:41:54.:41:58.

relationships between adult children and their parents. Actually we found

:41:59.:42:04.

that people who were getting divorced post-60, adult children may

:42:05.:42:09.

be in their 40s, may even have grandchildren, and it was the adult

:42:10.:42:14.

children who were very annoyed that their parents were getting divorced.

:42:15.:42:19.

Even at that age. A fascinating topic, thank you both very much.

:42:20.:42:22.

I will be back tomorrow, but until then have a very good night.

:42:23.:42:38.

19 Celsius in London today but things are about to turn cooler and

:42:39.:42:45.

for the weekend wetter and windier. For Thursday a band of

:42:46.:42:46.

Topics include the Dutch election results, privacy at work and old folks getting hitched. Plus Viewsnight and a look at NI contributions as the chancellor hits reverse.

With Evan Davis.