08/02/2016 Scotland 2016

On the eve of D-day for councils to agree their budgets,

the deal from the Scottish Government is described

The relationship between central and local government in Scotland

is "almost completely dysfunctional."

We'll hear why from the outgoing head of Cosla.

And we'll hear why it's not from the Minister for Local

Tonight, more negotiations over the funding framework

The RA the business end of discussion but I think we can do it.

We're working very hard to secure an agreement but I don't think we

should underestimate the scale of the issues we need to overcome to

try and secure that agreement. And a boost for Scotland's energy

industry as the Shetland gas But should we be looking

beyond fossil fuels? Talks in Edinburgh aimed at ending

a dispute over Scottish public spending have ended once again

tonight without agreement. The row concerns how much should be

cut from the block grant once Both the Scottish government

and the Treasury say they will So could this put a deal before

the Holyrood election in doubt? Here's our Political

Editor, Brian Taylor. He talks here tonight at St Andrews

house in Edinburgh started late. The Chief Secretary to the Treasury was

delayed in London because his plane was held up by storm image on. The

climate surrounding the negotiations was none too helpful either. Both

sides admit they are still far apart. The Treasury say the offer

would have advantage Scotland over the past 15 years. They say that

doing the sums it shows their offer potentially over that period was

better than the money that would have been delivered by the Barnett

formula. The Scottish Government say looking forward, looking ahead, they

say the Treasury proposals with potentially over a period of ten

years cut billions from the Scottish budget. What size are adamant they

are willing to continue negotiations to continue the talks. The Scottish

Parliament has said to us, the Parliamentary committee that they

want an agreement by debris the 12th to enable them to properly

scrutinise it in the Democratic interest of the people of Scotland.

Think that is completely reasonable. We will obviously work very hard to

try to deliver that. The UK Government remains committed to a

deal on fiscal framework. I am confident we can get that. We are at

the business end of the discussion but I think we can do it. The next

stage is likely to be a New Yorker to be tabled by -- offer. They say

they can address the concerns that remain. As things stand tonight here

in Edinburgh it does not look like the deal is immediately on the

cards. It looks as if the deadline set by the Scottish Parliament which

was to get this negotiations concluded by Friday, that looks like

slipping. It does not look as though they will be a deal by then, if at

all, before the Scottish elections. Both governments insist they are

willing to continue creating. -- to continue negotiating.

Tomorrow is the day of reckoning for Scotland's local authorities.

Then they must tell the Finance Secretary John Swinney

whether or not they will accept the deal put forward

Cosla - which represents most of Scotland's councils -

says it amounts to "unacceptable" cuts of ?350 million.

Mr Swinney says its around a ?100 million, less than 1%

Relations between the two sides are at rock bottom.

Joining me now from Inverness is Rory Mair, the outgoing

chief executive of Cosla, who has been at the helm

Good evening. Good evening. Just how bad relations between councils and

the Scottish Government? Really pretty bad. Relationships require

commitment, energy and an idea of mutual respect and that doesn't

exist in the relationship. Instead we have got a rather heavy-handed

bullying, trying to force councils to do things they don't want to do

just so the Government can do things they do want to do. That seems to be

a recipe for a pretty poor relationship and that is the kind of

relationship we have got. In the 13 or 14 years I have been at Cosla,

this is as poor as a relationship as we have had at any point. Why do you

think that is? What has gone wrong? Two things. There is something that

all governments have wrestled with in Scotland, if you are the tip of

Parliament we have and you don't do things like foreign policy and full

fiscal autonomy, and defence. Then you wonder what it is you do, you

become involved in things that function locally that make you think

you will be attractive to local people and that puts you on a

collision course with local government. But it also is that some

governments Weise have seen have been more to ensure that they get

all the kudos for something that happens and that again means that

governments have got to take the good also something that is actually

the job of local government and the achievement of local government. If

you have those things it is very difficult to form a relationship

that works. What is wrong, for example, for the Scottish Government

asking local councils to maintain pupil teacher ratios if that is a

national priority of the Government, surely that is fair enough? Well, I

think there are a number of things wrong with it. It is awed that when

we are talking about the education and the difficulties we experience,

that he managed to reduce this to a single performance indicator, the

number of teachers we have. How is it that the Government in Edinburgh

and a few of their advisors know that that is going to be the thing

that drives inequalities out of education, but the thing we all want

to see happening when all the education directors, all the

councils that are actually running the service, so that it isn't? So

you think that part of the deal is wrong because basically councils

would get some of the money unless they commit to that? That is right.

There are two issues, one is about the actual thing and the other is

the way it is being enforced. If we don't maintain something that we

think is not good for learning in Scotland, and overall number of

teachers, what will have to do is reduce other parts of the education

system that supports the most needy in our schools. If we don't do that,

we deceive a Draconian penalties that doesn't just cover the amount

of money relating to teacher numbers, it also covers the amount

of money relating to council tax freeze and a share of the ?250

million that Mr Swinney makes so much play on. No council can

possibly go against that government wants when that level of penalty is

forced on them if they do so. Briefly, what do you think about the

way in which these negotiations have been humbled? They have been --

handled. They have been characterised by misinformation and

a lack of trust between government and local government. There is a

view that this is a budget were the problems are caused by Westminster,

I don't think they are. It is caused by decisions made by the Government

in Edinburgh. It is a huge amount of misinformation, even the point you

raised at the beginning of the programme, we are clearly getting a

3.5% cut, to call it a 1% cut is a piece of nonsense and it seems to us

that this is an austerity budget that the Government don't want to

face up to and we want to make sure that the cuts that are made by us so

that they can wash their hands and say we are clean, we didn't do this

to local people, it is the Government that are going to force

these cops on local people and it will be people and it will be the

fullest people in Horace society that suffer those cuts. Thank you

very much for coming in. Well, listening to that

in our Edinburgh studio is Marco Biagi, the Minister

for Local Government Community That is pretty strong stuff from

Rory Mair. Heavy-handed, bullying, you have to take that seriously,

don't you, a Chief Executive of Cosla who has been booked for 13

years? Certainly his job has been to argue the corner of local government

to the Scottish Government. I do think some of the tongue of his

comments have been a bit disappointing. I was going to say

that there was any misinformation and exaggeration, some of it has

been seen in some of the exaggerated claims that are coming from local

government representatives. That is understandable. But he has been in

position for 13 years and he is saying things have ever been this

bad. Well, you often hear rhetoric like that around this annual

negotiation progress -- process. Some of the things just said there

are quite far from what actually happened. When you look at the

teacher numbers issue, a few years ago the Scottish Government came to

local government and said we considered teacher numbers to be

important, to keep teacher numbers, certainly, we will be impressed in

the Scottish Parliament legitimately to do that and asked local

government how much it would cost, we were taught 41 million and we

offered that. We were told it became 51 million, we offered 51 million.

We are heading into a negotiation here where we put some priorities on

the table but then put cash down with it. If. Yes, with strings

attached. What is the point of local government if local councils aren't

allowed to set different priorities? If you look at the education system,

I don't think anybody is going to fault Scotland was like national

parliament wanting to be involved in the national education system. The

entire history of schooling in Scotland, you can go back 400 years

to Wendy was the degree that any parish should have a school, there

has clearly been a national dimension to it. Education is always

going to be delivered in partnership and that will mean both local and

national government coming together with priorities. The problem here is

its doesn't sound like a partnership, it sounds like a lot of

diktats coming from the centre. The tongue of the letter sent out a

couple of weeks ago to councils was pretty threatening, wasn't it as I

wouldn't agree with that characterisation at all. If you look

at what we are doing, we have said there are a few priorities here. We

have put up cash to match that. When you look at what they previous

admission by with the SNP did, they took ?2.7 billion and micromanaged

from the centre. They give it to local government that dictated on a

very minute faces what could be sent on. But they also look at our

nearest neighbours south of the border they are slowly dismantling

local authority role in education entirely with free schools that are

directly funded from the centre so I think some of this rhetoric needs to

be calmed down a little bit. I know conflict makes for better telly than

agreement but it can be quite off-putting and generate cynicism.

Cosla represents 20-32 local authorities. That 20 of the 32. The

local authorities got the letter, the deal is that they don't agree to

the council tax freeze and it will show Kerr spent and the freezers,

there will be big financial penalties, that doesn't sound like a

partnership, that sounds at one site and the other what to do. It would

be one side telling the other what to do if we were saying this is what

you must do. But we are doing is saying, here are some priorities,

some important ones I think the people of Scotland will back,

maintaining people teacher ratios, keeping the number constant,

providing the living wage and we are putting forward the cash to do it.

What would be heavy-handed would be saying you have got to do this by

putting up the cash. To characterise this in the way that has happened is

quite damaging. When you look at the broad spectrum of the relationship

between local government and the Scottish Government, there is a lot

there that has been very successful. We are integrating Health and Social

Care Board is giving local government more say in the delivery

and help locally than they have had decades. I worked personally with

the president of Cosla on a commission to examine the future of

local tax, it was very productive and it was done in partnership. You

can look at all kinds of other areas, community Justice, recycling,

you name it, there is still a positive relationship. There is

money on the table here are some tensions are running high. Marco

Banerjee, thank you for your time this evening. -- Marco Biaggi.

Some much-needed good news for the beleaguered oil and gas

industry today as the first gas has begun coming ashore

industry today as the first gas Shetland to the mainland. This is

the first of its kind in the UK. We've taken a concept which has been

seen before, but we have made We've taken a concept which has been

Unions representing a range of offshore trades joint forces today

in Aberdeen to respond to the crisis. We want to maintain the

investment that has taken place over many years. It takes 2.5 years to

train a pilot. If people leave the industry, as many are doing, they

won't come back. And that skill is a loss to the industry. Amid all this

talk of the future of Scotland's fossil fuel based industry comes the

question, what about renewables? This giant wind farm near Glasgow is

the perfect example of Scotland's commitment to green energy and some

argue that is where the future of the industry lies. There are people

being laid off at the moment in Aberdeen. Everyone has sympathy for

those people. But we don't have a plan that says, instead of waiting

for oil and gas to pick up again and go back to the same jobs having

driven a taxi, we should have a better plan, which is how we give

them good permanent jobs in green energy. But for now at least, it

places like Shetland's new gas plant and the wider North Sea industry

which plays a key role in keeping the lights on.

A short while ago I spoke to Patrick Harvie, Co-Convenor

of the Scottish Greens, and Paul Younger, Professor

of Energy Engineering at the University of Glasgow.

It's estimated that 17% of the UK's gas reserves could lie in this new

area. Patrick, are you happy it is now on stream? I don't think anybody

should be really happy that we are still using far too much fossil

fuel. We know that even if it wasn't for the Paris agreement, the climate

change agenda, even before that, led to a global budget that was many

times less than the total reserves of fossil fuels that we have got

available to us. The upshot being that most of it needs to stay on the

ground and not be burnt. It is not something that is going to be solved

overnight. Nobody can snap their fingers and say, we don't need gas

any more. And there is enough to keep 2 million homes heated. While

we have the remaining years of using fossil fuels, we need to be thinking

about two things. Firstly, how do we use it as efficiently as we can? The

idea that we are still installing individual gas boilers in homes

rather than things like district heating systems and combined heating

power, which get much more efficient use of gas while we are still using

it. The second thing is a transition. Building those new

economies, new industries, and new energy systems and high-value jobs

we need for the future that will be lusting after the age of fossil fuel

has passed. That will not be far away now. Today's announcement isn't

really about jobs. Only 80 people are employed to run the subsea

operations for this new facility. How important would be for securing

the energy supply in Scotland? Gas production in this country has been

in steep decline for more than decade now. The longer that

continues, if we continue to use gas at the level we are using, 82% of

households are reliant on it for their heating and hot water as well

as Peterhead power station, which is there to help balance the grid in

between the availability of renewables in particular, as long as

our indigenous production is in steep decline, that means as long as

we don't stop using it quickly, which sadly we don't seem to be, it

is either produce more or imported. If you import it, there are two

consequences. One is for funds for the cost of it and the second is the

carbon footprint goes back up. If you bring gas all the way from the

east of Russia, by the time it gets here, the carbon footprint of

bringing it here is bigger than the carbon footprint of burning it once

it gets here. Just to say, we will not bother producing our our own

gas, but bring it from elsewhere, which is more or less the assumption

in a lot of the policy that falls out by accident, it is a false

economy in carbon terms as well as money terms. Patrick, you are saying

Scotland could create as many as 200,000 highly skilled long-term

jobs in other sectors like renewables. Is that actually really

possible? We have talked about renewables in our jobs for the new

economy report. We've also talked about the decommissioning of oil and

gas infrastructure. We just heard over this weekend warnings that

Scotland is at risk of losing out on the jobs that will come from oil gas

recommissioning. Infrastructure that needs to be removed, as dealt with

safely. If companies based in other countries are in a prime position to

bid for those jobs, then Scotland will lose out on the economic

opportunities. We have also talked about the demand reduction and that

is coming back to how we use the energy we are generating. Whatever

source it is, and I would like to decommission a lot of the fossil

fuels faster and build the renewables, but whatever energy

sources we use, we need to use it efficiently and waste less, so that

fewer people living in fuel poverty and spending money that is going out

of their windows and doors and roofs and walls. Do you think that is

feasible, to stop using fossil fuel much faster than is currently on

schedule? That is the fundamental problem. If we had an easy place to

go for domestic heating in particular, then... We saw today

research showing that wind power provided almost half of Scotland's

energy News last month. That is wrong, electricity, but electricity

is less than 20% of the energy Scotland. 55% is heat,

non-electrical heat. That is why we mention things like district heating

and power. I would agree with that. The University of Glasgow is

commissioning a gas fire district heating system which is replacing

all the individual gas boilers in separate buildings. It is far more

efficient, not only saving energy, but also reducing our carbon

footprint markedly. It is still gas. We looked at the options. It would

have suited the University of Glasgow very well if we could have

gone to biomass, for instance. The trouble is, we are in a city centre

area where we have strict limits on what we can put in the atmosphere

and biomass puts out a lot less than the worse things than gas combustion

does. On the margins of the urban area, biomass is more viable. On the

city centre, not so much. Very briefly, do you think, as the VWF

suggested today, Scotland could become the EU's first fully

renewable nation by 2030? It is possible. From the history of

renewable energy in Scotland in recent years we have seen every time

the target is set, the naysayers say, that will never be achievable,

and the target is surpassed. We are clearly able to... Scotland has

missed its renewable energy targets at every single milestone so find

you are the government when that happens. We have missed the climate

change targets. The renewable electricity generation... But that

is behind schedule. It's maybe because of the changes to UK

Government policy. That needs to be challenged, but there is a huge

opportunity for the public sector to play a bigger role here. Local

energy companies could be using the public sector borrowing power to

invest in the upfront kit that housing associations and

house-builders are not going to be able to afford to put in. That would

mean we have got a greater public and community ownership of the

energy generating capacity for the future. It's not just benefiting

multinational corporations. Will not get 200% renewable because we will

have to have gas for back-up and nobody has an alternative.

Patrick Harvie and Paul Younger speaking to me earlier.

Joining me now to discuss some of the day's other news

is Ann Landels, Director of the homeless charity

Crisis Skylight Edinburgh and Investigations Editor

Good evening. The Scottish Conservative leader Ruth Davidson

has delivered the Joseph and to's annual lecture on poverty. It was a

much more cuddly sort of conservatism that we might be used

to. I think you can see all of these

things and not have to be contradictory. One that there is a

rule five to government. Two that the market is not king, three that I

still believe in individual liberty and the ability and ambition and

opportunity of people to go out and make it, but that there is a role to

give people a hand up to. I don't think these things have to be

mutually exclusive. She was talking about combating inequality for child

care for children. A review of senior bosses, the way they are

paired. This is an attempt to grab votes from Labour? Clearly an

attempt to win over voters who might have their heads turned by the

Scottish Conservatives at this moment in time. The problem she

faces is the distinction between her words on poverty and her actual

policies. Last year, she said a commission to look at taxation,

which issued its report recently and they backed reducing the 40% income

tax rate to 30% and also backed the abolition of the successor tax to

stamp duty, which, if Lynn fermented, would be a massive

transfer of wealth to people at the top. Of course you have George

Osborne's policies on inheritance tax. They have not adopted these

policies yet. They will, come the report. Ruth is probable currently

looking at tax cuts and spending increases. She may have trouble

explaining that combination of policies if she wants to reduce

poverty. Ann, do you think with this softer approach, she stands a good

chance of pushing Labour into third place in the Holyrood elections? I

think she's clearly bidding for that vote, but at the end of the day, it

is words, and it is actions that make the difference. The chances of

the Conservatives being able to drive through the changes she's

talking about are very limited, I think. I think the other thing she

didn't talk about another speech was the other effects that are making

poverty worse was of our citizens at the moment and that is the welfare

benefit changes which act against some of the things she was talking

about earlier. She also accused the SNP of quitting college places to

fund a middle-class freebie. Do you think that sort of language... Who

do you think she's targeting? I think the Conservatives have always

been sceptical of universal benefits, but no party is more

ruthless at rewarding the middle class than the Conservatives. Look

at their budgets in recent years, they know who their voters are and

they reward them. If you look at the policies, so far, perhaps with the

exception of colleges, it is a pretty naked picture to Middle

Scotland. I haven't seen anything that would redistribute money from

the top to the bottom. I think it is a clever speech, clever political

marketing, but will it actually reduce poverty? I think the jury is

out. Let's move onto another story. Alistair Carmichael, whose election

was challenged in court last year, has been told. It was claimed he

misled voters claiming Nicola Sturgeon had said she wanted to seek

David Cameron remain in power do macro. It is a mess, a state of

affairs when. Do you think he will think it is worth it? I doubt it. It

is good that there will now be a line drawn under this and the whole

affair can move on from it. It has dragged on. It has not brought

politicians into anything great. It has brought some to distribute.

People always suspect that politicians lie anyway, and this

proves that a politician did lie. What do you think the impact will be

on him, financially, and also the political reputation? Will it have a

broader effect on the Lib Dems? I don't know about finances, but I

think his political career is over. He won't stand again. I was always

call curious about the political backdrop. Orkney and Shetland have

always been solidly Liberal Democrat, but I think the Lib Dem

brand in that part of the country is now pretty much tarnished. I would

expect the SNP to pick up those constituencies in May. A cynic might

say this is what it has always been about, this case. I am not sure

about that, but it looks good. Do you think they'll pay the price

electorally? Yes, they definitely will. I don't know why he did what

he did in the first place, but it is clearly backfired and it is going to

backfire on the whole party. A low point on the referendum? Yes, and it

didn't do anything it in terms of encouraging people who had come to

politics merely to maintain that interest. Thank you for coming in.

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