Education Select Committee Select Committees

That agreement has been made on a contemporary basis. We will have to

see how that goes in the next accounting year. Is there a plan

once things have resolved themselves in terms of accounting standards,

that they will be re-consolidated? Not that I am aware. If there is a

way that parliaments, this committee, the Treasury feels there

are more ways we can give transparency, I think the idea is

for the next 2015 /16 financial year, we will publish one final set

of accounts. We will pick up with the new system. We will be going

over this ground in more detail so be ready for that. The White Paper

says paragraph 328, Grove Academy trusts will improve the quality of

governance. What is the evidence for that view? It is from a combination

of talking to those running multi-Academy trusts and those

pieces of information that we gather. It goes on to say the best

governing boards will take responsibility for more schools. It

is that ability to look after schools that share responsibilities.

The evidence comes from talking to people in multi-Academy trusts? It

is both. It is right the way across the system. I have had a letter from

a parent of a student who has been a multi-Academy and GCSE results

declined specifically. Executive pay has risen way in addition of

inflation. The school is trying to manage its intake to improve the

quality of the students coming in. It has been a high teacher turnover

and there is worried about proceeds coming in from a land sale. Parents

are not encouraged to make complaints. What can they do? What

they can do is to raise concerns with the trust if they feel they are

not getting anywhere there. The school commissioner, the education

funding agency or come straight to the Department for Education. We

allow parents to potentially petition for a school to leave a

multi-Academy trust if they were really unhappy. That is on

performance grounds. Also to allow an address to the public sector

ombudsman has been proposed. You haven't named the Academy trust

involved so I cannot tell you whether it is something we are

investigating. You can give us the details and we can find out more. We

are able to issues these notices to improve and to re-broker if

something has dramatically gone wrong. Will legislation allowing

parents to perdition shift trust in the legislation when it comes

forward? We need to look at all the details and it is something that is

put forward in the White Paper. We haven't had as many comments on that

yet. We need to work out how it works. There is always that argument

about not wanting to destabilise the arrangements. It is important if

there is a good reason. Parents will be able to have their say. It is

about having real meaningful engagement. One point made is the

school has been and I quote removed from attachment with its community

and that control now rests in west London, at the headquarters of the

trust and also at the chair is based in the US. Why are you removing the

requirement for schools to have parent governors? There is nothing

about parents not being governors or do we not want parents to be

governors. We do want governing board is made up of people with the

right skills to hold those trusts are those running schools to

account. I think it is important that we have people with the right

skills. Many of whom will be parents. Isn't it important to have

people attached to the local community? Of course it is. In terms

of the constitution of most trusts, there would be a variety of people.

Some will have direct involvement through being parents. They could

even be members of the local authority. There will also be others

with business or legal experience. And the principle of parental

engagement at a formal Government level and a mutual counter the fears

taken away from the local community outweigh the argument for schools to

be given its own governance arrangements. Why have you rejected

that view? What has been put forward in the White Paper is this idea of

governing boards to have the right skills that are going to add to the

school. Many of those people will be parents. Many trusts will still have

parents on the board. Shouldn't it be a requirement that parents should

be on there? Winner to have the strongest possible governing board.

Sign to -- that all fours of a school being taken away from his

local community and something should be done to provide reassurance about

that. They need to provide ways for

schools to have parent councils that get parents in. That have parents

highly involved in that. I don't know the example and I think there

are many other academies and trusts that wouldn't recognise the example

that you have given at all. Looking at the disadvantaged pupils, some

say the academies excel but most do worse than the mainstream average

because they have expanded too fast. The trust recommends multi-Academy

trusts should only be able to expanded they have a track record of

improving their resistance calls. Do you agree? I know you like the

Sutton trust a lot. They say the best academy trains -- chains are

having a major transformation. We can be open about this. We know

there are some Academy sponsors where things haven't worked out,

they haven't been able to provide that challenge and in which case it

will be re-brokered. The Sutton trust makes a few outstanding

observations. Most of these multi-Academy trusts do worse than

the mainstream average when they are looking at the performance of

disadvantaged pupils. Their recommendation is the trust should

only be allowed to expand if they have a track record of improving

their existing schools. Do you agree? It is very important and one

of the reasons we have stopped Academy trusts from extending

because they don't have a good track record. So you want them to have a

good track record? It is one of the most critical questions in

considering whether they should... Is it a yes or a no? It is an

important factor in whether Academy trusts should take on other schools.

There are questions about whether a trust is capable of school

improvement and we have stopped them expanding. Are you saying a trust

must have had a track record of improving its existing schools

before it takes on new schools? That is a vital question. I want to know

the answer. I have given you the answer. If Academy trust doesn't

have a good track record, we wouldn't let them take any more. You

have talked about the importance of school autonomy in the new era. Why

can schools have the autonomy to decide whether or not they should be

Academy? We are going back over old ground but I am happy to do it for

the reasons that I have set out. We have to build a strong consistent

school system in this country and I have the opportunity to do that. We

are halfway through it and have some great schools in parts of the

country but we have areas we have identified in here and elsewhere

where education is not yet good enough. We want good schools. If we

are going to build a strong system, we want good schools to become

academies, to offer that strength, that expertise right away across the

country. Operating and running financially a jewel system does not

make best use of taxpayer's money. We want as much money to go to the

front line as much as we can. Ian, on the same subject? The White Paper

does talk about the symbolic role of parent governors. Parent governors,

was it Kenneth Baker that got that wrong? What conclusion on parent

governors. They have done a sterling job but what conclusion are they

meant to draw about their role in governments over the last 27 years

when it has dismissed a thing that is largely symbolic? I don't want

governors to be symbolic. I want them to be there absolutely bringing

their skills, bringing life experience. Some will be parents and

some won't come some will have worked in education and some want.

There is no reason why parent governors shouldn't continue to make

an excellent very valuable contribution to school governance.

It is entirely possible under the proposals that you are bringing

forward, that there may not be any parent governors in a particular

school. There may be governors in a whole range of different categories

bringing skills who might be parents themselves but not necessarily

parents of children in school. I think that is important because

parents in the locality like to know there is someone rooting for their

case in the education system. Someone with the local knowledge

base, someone who understands the community that they represent. That

is important and I ask you to reflect on that. In terms of what

the Academy trusts can do, what research has the DfEE conducted on

the likely supply of new multi-Academy trusts into the

future? In London they have been trying to get London sponsors to

move into the land of them but they trickle down and it may not go as

far as Gateshead or Newcastle from London. We know that we are looking

for academies to be sponsored and people that want to do that. The

most effective people to be sponsors of academies are other good or

outstanding schools. If I look at the information that we have

submitted in terms of the Academy trust enquiry -- inquiry, many are

school lead. There are many schools who could be multi-Academy trust

sponsors and we want all of them to consider doing that. Based on an

anecdote from my own locality, where a school is trying to leave and

Academy trust and have done so, they are still tied into the service

contracts for a period of five years. They might well leave the

governance structure but they can't leave the delivery of services

because they are tied in by a legal contract. It is an important point.

If we are going to have a system where we have more schools, some of

which will be part of multi-Academy trusts, it is important that we

clear that in the event of issues of performance, financial, could be

just distance. Just lack of sufficient school improvement that

NHS -- that trusts are not able to leave. We have to think about the

issues and signing up to service contracts. You talked about many

multi-trusts growing up from the ground in a location in small groups

of school clustered together. In terms of the larger areas trying to

provide services and move forward, what contingency plans have you made

if the supply of this starts to tail off? I go back to the point that

what we are seeing and we will not run out of schools on the basis that

we know we have 24,000, but 70% of multi-Academy trusts are school led.

That is one of the strongest ways of having clusters of school. They

could be smaller or larger clustered. It builds a strong

system. We will continue looking for sponsors. I talked before about

education being a great life transformer. Now many ready

organisations like Lord Harris who wants to invest in good education

and want other people to experience that. Some don't have good education

and want people to go through that. I their involvement. -- I welcome

their involvement. What makes you confident that in

rural areas where there may be very small rural schools, that MATs will

oversee the management of those places? Schools do not have two join

multi-Academy trust. I think it's one thing that has come out, people

think automatically they will have to join a trust that is not right

for them. That is not what we are saying and that's way over the six

years that we are talking about. But we know that there are trusts that

want to move into different areas and take on different schools. And

we'll do that with the right conversations take and smaller

schools. We also know that there are clusters of smaller schools that

want to work together and that's something we say. It goes back to

the point about one size fits all, it absolutely is not. It will look

like a different system, different solutions for different areas may

think that is exactly right you envisage there might be five or

10,000 multi-Academy trusts across the country? It is difficult to give

numbers. At the moment, we have 973 and they range in size. The vast

majority have got less than ten schools in member, so I think we

need to see how it develops but actually I am not going to say that

small clusters of schools can speak to together and be successful.

Managing the whole system and making sure everything is OK everywhere,

can I say, I hope it stays fine for you. Well, I think we have a very

talented number of regional schools Commissioners. Some colleges,

apprenticeship providers in engineering for example saves me

that schools don't promote and don't talk about other routes post 16.

What confidence can we have that multi-academies trust are going to

promote other routes post 16 and what confidence can we have that

teachers will be equipped of knowledge of alternative routes into

apprenticeships or training and understand more about the world

enterprise and engineering for example? I don't think that

challenge has anything to do with multi-Academy trusts. We know there

are schools of all hues who would like to hold onto their pupils I

have been very clear that if necessary we will legislate so that

other providers must be allowed to come in and talk about other

opportunities will stop other routes were doing A-levels or technical

professional education. I think that's very important. I've also

spoken about the careers and enterprise advisers in working with

schools. Of course the main target is working with the pupils to

inspire them about the future, but I would strongly expect that teachers

will be very aware of what is available. It goes back to character

and employability skills and being very clear that we want our

Dunstable to be prepared for all different kinds of world work. --

our pupils. You've referred to the enquiry on multi-Academy trusts and

our basic question is that what makes a good trust and we will be

inviting others into that inquiry. Lister, you want to talk about

character and resilience. I want to take you back to character and

chapter six in the White Paper. I welcome the plans to focus schools

and boosting mental health and well-being of pupils. Can I ask,

what plans are there to target that support in the area of looked after

children and chosen on the fringes of care? We are looking at the

moment about what we can do in terms of having responsibilities around

looked after children. How we would hold people to account for that and

that is early work in the department. We know that is a group

of children who do need perhaps additional, specific support. I

suppose to school level, we want all schools to focus on pupils in this

agenda. Spotting there may be children who have particular needs

audit experiences where they could you really... BELL RINGS

TRANSLATION: There will now be a 20 minute suspension. Really? I need to

be somewhere else. We will reconvene and try to get in for 16: 40.

Letters recommence our examination of the Secretary of State and

particularly character and resilience. One straightforward

question. Do you think we need to target resource at children on the

fringes of care in terms of mental health and well-being and resilience

and character building? I think, yes, but not exclusively. They are

children who would benefit but sadly I think there are many other

youngsters who also will benefit from teaching and mental well-being

and other issues but as I say, in terms of leaders on the fringes and

children and kept this is something we are looking at as a department.

Two quick questions. What value or impact for will regional schools

commissioners bring? Well, I'm not sure about accountability, it's

about trading improvement. I know you will have evidence from them

about in terms of accountability, one of the benefits of academies is

that they are accountable to themselves and of course to parents.

And of course there will be inspected by Ofsted and what the

commissioners do is identify when there is a problem and help to

improve services to whether that is bringing in new teachers or

potentially re-brokering in Academy or bringing in new leadership.

Strong accountability. We haven't gone onto the financial but the

commissioners are there to target those schools in need. I should just

say that good and outstanding schools, we want them to get on with

doing what they do best. What has been the evidence so far from your

perspective of the action and steps taken by raw regional commissioners.

I think what interesting is just how well they know their local areas

right down to the level of individual schools in individual

constituencies and areas. They really do have a handle on what's

going on. They are able to broker different solutions but the fact

that we have issued notices to improve but also be brokered

sponsorships shows real action. We've been in correspondence with

the home education and I'm sorry that Marion is not here to share me

make this observation, but of course in Scotland there is more regulation

from education than in England. Are you thinking of moving in that

direction, given the issues of extremism and concern about child

protection and the fact that we have some 50,000 children being home

educated but actually no need to register with anybody? It is an

area, absolutely, of concern. I would like to say that there are

many children having home education extremely well and very safe

environments and they are getting a very good standard of education from

family or from others. But of course, any situation where children

could be vulnerable both in terms of safeguarding welfare but also in

terms of what they are being taught has to be a concern to the

Department. I know that there is an extremely strong view that people

would not want to see regulation. I think it's something that I'm very

open to listening to further thoughts on. But we are also

introducing or want to introduce regulation looking at how we can

know where children are because at the moment when a child is

deregistered from a school, we don't necessarily know where they're going

and it could be that the end up in another school somewhere else which

is perfectly reasonable but there are also chosen in home education

who are not registered and I think that is a concern. We want to know

where children are. You're right, many of them will be well education

but what we are guessing at 50,000 or more we can't be sure that all of

them are in a safe environment and that is a parallel with the sort of

schools which your department has been looking at the meet the radar

and it seems that some proposals could be made to tighten both

independent schools between the radar and on education. I think all

of this area, if we are serious, going back to where we started about

excellence but also in terms of education being a thing that opens

up young people's' lives then we have to know what is happening in

all education settings. On education is something people feel strongly

about and in many cases it is done extremely well. Thank you, Nicky. We

will be talking about the next Chief Inspector. Sir Michael has never

been physically backwards with coming forward is. I just wonder how

you will judge the candidates and maintain Ofsted's independence. I'm

pleased to say that we have had a really positive level of interest.

Some excellent candidates. The job description I'm pretty certain, and

stands be corrected, is public so people can see what we want to see.

But I think the ability to have someone who can speak without fear

or favour to anyone in the Government is very important.

Ofsted's role has expanded in recent years and Sir Michael has particular

experience in the secondary sector. What consideration has been given to

the size of the scope of the sector and the person who may head it? We

welcome a really good selection of candidates to make sure that we

weren't restricting ourselves just to the people who have worked in

schools. We need to make sure we are encouraging applications from a wide

range of people and I'm pleased to say that that has happened. That is

an interview process that is ongoing. Finally, on Ofsted, that

you might remember I talked about the need for the Ofsted process to

be something that is done with schools rather than done to schools

and you have any plans to change Ofsted's role and structure going

forwards? I don't think the role in the sense that I think it's very

important to have an independent inspectorate of schools and as you

say, other settings, early years, F E, apprenticeship cycles have also

been very interested in as well as children's services. We talk... I

think is right to say that we don't want schools to be so focused on

Ofsted inspection that they lose sight of doing what they do best and

what they are most skilled at. Something we talk about in the White

Paper is moving the quality of teaching judgment because we don't

want teaching practice to be driven by what people Ofsted want. We

haven't yet topped about the workload reports. I think that is

very important. To make sure that workload is not increased or driven

by worry about Ofsted inspections. In terms of framework, I think the

very nature if you think about cases in Birmingham, we would not expect

Ofsted to be investigating British values but that might be something

we have to think about. We are not expecting future changes but we need

all these things under review. Thank you. Last but not least, Michelle is

going to talk about implementation of the White Paper. Thank you for

coming in today. The Prime Minister did say today in Prime Minister

questions that the canonisation speech would be in the Queens

speech. Would our wider level of... Very when what we talked up the form

which is that there are still discussions going on about the exact

detail about what authorities could become themselves sponsors of

academies so there are a lot of questions around it. Do not think

more time would be advisable before we start this? I think as the Prime

Minister said today, we cannot pre-empt what will be in the speech

that there is a lot more in the White Paper than just the issues

around school structure. There is lots to hear that can be done just

exactly as I spoke about. The changes to Ofsted but also teacher

training, setting of college teachers which does not require

legislation at all and we want to work with the professional all the

things in the White Paper. I can't say that what the detail of the

legislation will be, but I do know from this House that there will be

lots of legislative scrutiny both in the Commons and in the House of

Lords on any proposals on education including of course the details wife

online scrutiny at the committee stage.

I want to ask two questions. Pressure from Ofsted inspections is

cited as the top three reasons for leaving the profession. The

proposals here for referral of Ofsted, how do you see that

affecting workload and teacher morale? I mentioned the quality of

teaching judgment and having a quality of leadership judgment. That

is important. If those listening have a chance to have a look at the

report from the three workload groups, there are recommendations

for Ofsted and school management. If we were able to take on both those

recommendations, we could make a significant difference to the

workload of teachers up and down the country. That would help. There are

a myriad of reasons why people decide they don't want to stay in

teaching and move onto something else. I recognise the fact that

Ofsted inspection should not be... There will always be a certain

amount of spirit -- stress when any inspection is done. I don't want

teaching practice all the way schools are run to be driven by

Ofsted. My last question was about the funding of schools. There is a

section on that for which many members of this house have been

campaigning for it. In Hampshire we have traditionally been

disproportionately limited on funding. I wanted to ask a question

of when you think this is likely to be implemented and what the overall

effect will be? In particular for Hampshire. Icon predict specific

areas at the moment because we have just consulted on principles. -- I

can't predict. It sets out important principles like the area cost

adjustment for places like London but rural sparsity factors. I was

talking to one of my colleagues in the lobby about the consultation and

the work he is doing with his local headteacher. It is important to

remember why we are doing this. It goes back to my original point about

consistency across the country and funding has to underpin that. If we

are to move to a system where we have a national funding formula,

when money is going direct to schools, that is where we want to

get to and it is the right thing to do. We see disparities and we have

factors of disadvantage which have not kept up with the local

demographic developments. It is important and schools are asking the

certainty so they will be able to predict more funding that they will

have over the next few years which I can completely understand why

schools will want to do that. In terms of timing, we would like to

start moving onto the next formula. There will be a transitional period

and that is something we will need to look at. We are conscious that

there are inevitably going to be areas where they will have less and

we have to do that in a fair and phased way so that people are not

losing unduly and it will stabilise -- destabilise the education may

offer. There is a standing spending assessment. Some local authorities

used to spend above but some local authorities used to spend below a

standard assessment. When I came to those amounts being absorbed, that

was for those historical reasons. You can't blame local authorities

that have higher levels of spending when they are raising money locally

to put schools under the spending assessment that they had 20 years

ago. Part of the reason for consulting on principles first was

to have those discussions about whether we were looking at the right

principles and the formula. I was talking about the formula being

developed a decade ago. We can all agree that the demographics, the

needs of the local areas have changed hugely in those decades or

years since then. That is why the principles need to look at the

baseline we have now and how we reflect various factors, including

the disadvantage. The formula reflects the needs of the people

regardless of where they are. Our behalf of the committee, I want to

thank you for being with us. We have to have a break to do our duty to

demonstrate our democracy. Thank you very much. You have answered 21

questions plus all the supplementary 's which is good. We hope you have

enjoyed it and we would be most pleased if you will send our best

wishes to the secondary heads which we are about address. We have a

lasting interest in their welfare. You have passed your key stage nine.

I want to thank members of the committee for being so effective in

the questions. Order, order. Thank you.