11/12/2016 Sunday Politics East


11/12/2016

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It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:41.

A row has broken out between Number Ten and former

:00:42.:00:44.

Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,

:00:45.:00:47.

the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.

:00:48.:00:51.

I feel as though I'm one of the people that

:00:52.:00:54.

If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,

:00:55.:00:58.

It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult

:00:59.:01:09.

for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest

:01:10.:01:12.

Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.

:01:13.:01:15.

Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,

:01:16.:01:18.

but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance

:01:19.:01:19.

Here in the East... and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie

:01:20.:01:27.

Taking the castle out of Castle Point.

:01:28.:01:28.

A backlash over boundary changes and this 800-year-old ruin.

:01:29.:01:48.

think of it as an early Christmas present from us.

:01:49.:01:52.

We guarantee you won't be disappointed.

:01:53.:01:54.

And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined

:01:55.:01:56.

by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.

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It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.

:01:59.:02:00.

So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some

:02:01.:02:07.

of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.

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But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this

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morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts

:02:20.:02:22.

from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning

:02:23.:02:25.

the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.

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Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,

:02:31.:02:34.

and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation

:02:35.:02:37.

She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning

:02:38.:02:43.

Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair

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She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart

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Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week

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But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary

:03:07.:03:10.

argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief

:03:11.:03:12.

She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing

:03:13.:03:22.

for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation

:03:23.:03:29.

and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".

:03:30.:03:33.

The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying

:03:34.:03:36.

"If you don't like something I have said or done, please

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If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."

:03:39.:03:52.

Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.

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And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see

:03:58.:04:01.

in our film shortly, has now been formally banned

:04:02.:04:04.

So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying

:04:05.:04:20.

tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says

:04:21.:04:23.

something about British politics today, that this is the most

:04:24.:04:27.

important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are

:04:28.:04:31.

not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they

:04:32.:04:33.

don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being

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spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street

:04:40.:04:43.

with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet

:04:44.:04:47.

Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row

:04:48.:04:54.

over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,

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she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten

:05:00.:05:06.

you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the

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high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.

:05:15.:05:18.

You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky

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Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul

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as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.

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Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they

:05:36.:05:39.

are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in

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which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's

:05:46.:05:51.

entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is

:05:52.:05:55.

genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she

:05:56.:06:00.

chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that

:06:01.:06:04.

journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life

:06:05.:06:08.

works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the

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Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney

:06:13.:06:16.

and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government

:06:17.:06:21.

department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold

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together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the

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whole Government like one department. This is just the start,

:06:29.:06:34.

Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,

:06:35.:06:40.

The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most

:06:41.:06:45.

to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if

:06:46.:06:49.

it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was

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split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used

:06:56.:07:00.

to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down

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the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert

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the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a

:07:10.:07:13.

self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it

:07:14.:07:17.

comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do

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you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own

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wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is

:07:29.:07:32.

that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen

:07:33.:07:36.

polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,

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a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any

:07:43.:07:46.

money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself

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comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted

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with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most

:07:58.:08:01.

exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that

:08:02.:08:06.

British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain

:08:07.:08:11.

lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at

:08:12.:08:18.

being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split

:08:19.:08:22.

between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that

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sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the

:08:26.:08:31.

1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.

:08:32.:08:35.

The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of

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pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.

:08:41.:08:45.

So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price

:08:46.:08:47.

of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.

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And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire

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the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say

:08:53.:08:55.

about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead

:08:56.:08:57.

of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,

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it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.

:08:59.:09:01.

While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated

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Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting

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on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.

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Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government

:09:17.:09:17.

basically got its way, but it did provide a platform

:09:18.:09:20.

for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,

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We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level

:09:26.:09:34.

of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners

:09:35.:09:36.

that want to thwart the will of the people,

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go back on it and that we don't accept the result.

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I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people

:09:46.:09:50.

It's not good enough that these things are dragged

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out of the Government by opposition day motions.

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I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking

:09:56.:09:58.

Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents

:09:59.:10:02.

I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head

:10:03.:10:10.

above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,

:10:11.:10:14.

you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.

:10:15.:10:16.

I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank

:10:17.:10:19.

you for what you are doing, party members around

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the country saying thank you for what you are doing

:10:22.:10:23.

and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.

:10:24.:10:27.

I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,

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you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak

:10:31.:10:32.

opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised

:10:33.:10:35.

on before we embark on such a huge issue.

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Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's

:10:43.:10:45.

side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that

:10:46.:10:48.

if you don't stand up for what you believe in,

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I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.

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That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local

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party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses

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Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association

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she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support

:11:08.:11:10.

the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that

:11:11.:11:13.

and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people

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who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government

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The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP

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and we want to see a Conservative government being

:11:22.:11:23.

I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get

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on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,

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Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see

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how her stance is going down with the voters.

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If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does

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Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,

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especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU

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so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.

:11:51.:11:53.

She should stick for what she believes in,

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but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...

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She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted

:11:58.:12:13.

to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,

:12:14.:12:16.

depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.

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Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street

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this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.

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Although now we know not everyone is invited.

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And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday

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was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted

:12:41.:12:42.

against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end

:12:43.:12:45.

of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.

:12:46.:12:48.

Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David

:12:49.:12:53.

Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new

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leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to

:13:00.:13:03.

deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't

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speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious

:13:10.:13:15.

interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but

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somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman

:13:21.:13:23.

which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and

:13:24.:13:26.

said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger

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ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only

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serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a

:13:39.:13:41.

difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,

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your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more

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in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it

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not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not

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Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,

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she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting

:14:04.:14:06.

out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for

:14:07.:14:09.

being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it

:14:10.:14:14.

wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the

:14:15.:14:19.

national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid

:14:20.:14:22.

throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and

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my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party

:14:28.:14:30.

throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion

:14:31.:14:36.

on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to

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Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my

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reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national

:14:46.:14:49.

interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of

:14:50.:14:56.

course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you

:14:57.:15:01.

think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it

:15:02.:15:08.

40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you

:15:09.:15:12.

have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,

:15:13.:15:14.

they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have

:15:15.:15:19.

been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.

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That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are

:15:31.:15:38.

living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and

:15:39.:15:43.

the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's

:15:44.:15:48.

trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we

:15:49.:15:52.

need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a

:15:53.:15:56.

leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis

:15:57.:16:00.

upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the

:16:01.:16:04.

others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than

:16:05.:16:08.

any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.

:16:09.:16:15.

What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our

:16:16.:16:19.

children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need

:16:20.:16:29.

Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of

:16:30.:16:35.

negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to

:16:36.:16:39.

run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted

:16:40.:16:42.

in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister

:16:43.:16:48.

sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that

:16:49.:16:53.

your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons

:16:54.:16:57.

think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum

:16:58.:17:00.

campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were

:17:01.:17:05.

completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.

:17:06.:17:11.

Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I

:17:12.:17:16.

have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so

:17:17.:17:20.

just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a

:17:21.:17:26.

minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan

:17:27.:17:30.

Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with

:17:31.:17:33.

that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were

:17:34.:17:38.

going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and

:17:39.:17:44.

tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How

:17:45.:17:52.

long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will

:17:53.:17:59.

survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a

:18:00.:18:06.

heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you

:18:07.:18:11.

think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has

:18:12.:18:18.

always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in

:18:19.:18:22.

a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does

:18:23.:18:29.

he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to

:18:30.:18:33.

forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there

:18:34.:18:37.

will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten

:18:38.:18:45.

years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of

:18:46.:18:49.

his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward

:18:50.:18:53.

is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which

:18:54.:18:58.

all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet

:18:59.:19:02.

papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get

:19:03.:19:10.

down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry

:19:11.:19:13.

to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film

:19:14.:19:21.

that a number of constituency members in those areas which are

:19:22.:19:28.

strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was

:19:29.:19:33.

Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.

:19:34.:19:37.

What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects

:19:38.:19:43.

their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very

:19:44.:19:49.

grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because

:19:50.:19:58.

you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great

:19:59.:20:03.

fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on

:20:04.:20:06.

everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've

:20:07.:20:10.

always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying

:20:11.:20:14.

what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and

:20:15.:20:22.

then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised

:20:23.:20:26.

if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the

:20:27.:20:31.

policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say

:20:32.:20:38.

you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing

:20:39.:20:44.

Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't

:20:45.:20:48.

been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my

:20:49.:20:51.

colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that

:20:52.:20:58.

haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have

:20:59.:21:05.

been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well

:21:06.:21:09.

with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's

:21:10.:21:13.

much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street

:21:14.:21:19.

has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm

:21:20.:21:24.

glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what

:21:25.:21:28.

they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm

:21:29.:21:32.

not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still

:21:33.:21:38.

have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.

:21:39.:21:50.

That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really

:21:51.:21:56.

grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will

:21:57.:22:03.

have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument

:22:04.:22:06.

about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to

:22:07.:22:14.

keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be

:22:15.:22:22.

deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's

:22:23.:22:27.

relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this

:22:28.:22:32.

Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you

:22:33.:22:36.

for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever

:22:37.:22:38.

criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn

:22:39.:22:42.

against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,

:22:43.:22:44.

but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,

:22:45.:22:46.

or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result

:22:47.:22:49.

for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping

:22:50.:22:52.

for an early Christmas present at this week's

:22:53.:22:55.

contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,

:22:56.:22:56.

a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,

:22:57.:23:05.

there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second

:23:06.:23:07.

in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better

:23:08.:23:12.

performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,

:23:13.:23:14.

where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting

:23:15.:23:18.

fewer voters than the reported number of local

:23:19.:23:20.

Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this

:23:21.:23:24.

week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major

:23:25.:23:30.

issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity

:23:31.:23:34.

is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers

:23:35.:23:46.

were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote

:23:47.:23:50.

against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU

:23:51.:23:58.

by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've

:23:59.:24:01.

spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs

:24:02.:24:04.

the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,

:24:05.:24:07.

or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,

:24:08.:24:10.

eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,

:24:11.:24:14.

a national poll released on Friday put Labour

:24:15.:24:15.

at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy

:24:16.:24:18.

for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories

:24:19.:24:25.

under his leadership, including a by-election win

:24:26.:24:27.

in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a

:24:28.:24:30.

Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack

:24:31.:24:36.

of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having

:24:37.:24:40.

failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,

:24:41.:24:42.

what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played

:24:43.:24:53.

down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour

:24:54.:24:58.

Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic

:24:59.:25:02.

party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current

:25:03.:25:05.

leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in

:25:06.:25:10.

the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.

:25:11.:25:14.

And we're joined now by the former mayor

:25:15.:25:16.

of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow

:25:17.:25:18.

Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from

:25:19.:25:26.

second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its

:25:27.:25:31.

deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in

:25:32.:25:37.

this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters

:25:38.:25:46.

switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings

:25:47.:25:52.

that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is

:25:53.:25:57.

like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the

:25:58.:26:02.

Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win

:26:03.:26:11.

tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with

:26:12.:26:14.

the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,

:26:15.:26:20.

but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the

:26:21.:26:25.

national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells

:26:26.:26:29.

going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I

:26:30.:26:33.

think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a

:26:34.:26:38.

plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are

:26:39.:26:41.

going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard

:26:42.:26:47.

Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.

:26:48.:26:54.

When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.

:26:55.:26:59.

John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a

:27:00.:27:05.

massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory

:27:06.:27:10.

governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a

:27:11.:27:15.

disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if

:27:16.:27:19.

Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the

:27:20.:27:24.

EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year

:27:25.:27:29.

and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we

:27:30.:27:35.

are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic

:27:36.:27:41.

disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew

:27:42.:27:43.

the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why

:27:44.:27:48.

are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points

:27:49.:27:54.

behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating

:27:55.:27:58.

went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an

:27:59.:28:04.

election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not

:28:05.:28:09.

grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it

:28:10.:28:14.

will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic

:28:15.:28:18.

alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible

:28:19.:28:24.

economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand

:28:25.:28:29.

basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a

:28:30.:28:32.

commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It

:28:33.:28:40.

is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,

:28:41.:28:42.

particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back

:28:43.:28:49.

and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative

:28:50.:28:53.

manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to

:28:54.:28:57.

the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the

:28:58.:29:01.

broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an

:29:02.:29:07.

MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not

:29:08.:29:12.

going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a

:29:13.:29:16.

couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from

:29:17.:29:19.

Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And

:29:20.:29:26.

I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part

:29:27.:29:31.

of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted

:29:32.:29:38.

to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you

:29:39.:29:42.

don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other

:29:43.:29:47.

27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,

:29:48.:29:54.

why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't

:29:55.:29:56.

think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to

:29:57.:30:07.

get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps

:30:08.:30:11.

millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say

:30:12.:30:17.

we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all

:30:18.:30:22.

Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would

:30:23.:30:26.

suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories

:30:27.:30:30.

are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a

:30:31.:30:35.

bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut

:30:36.:30:40.

through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us

:30:41.:30:45.

that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a

:30:46.:30:50.

33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of

:30:51.:30:55.

the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to

:30:56.:30:59.

make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and

:31:00.:31:06.

not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or

:31:07.:31:13.

whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox

:31:14.:31:22.

fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18

:31:23.:31:27.

months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.

:31:28.:31:33.

The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You

:31:34.:31:36.

weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you

:31:37.:31:39.

have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting

:31:40.:31:43.

rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of

:31:44.:31:48.

policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to

:31:49.:31:51.

govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The

:31:52.:31:57.

idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like

:31:58.:32:02.

takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,

:32:03.:32:07.

yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this

:32:08.:32:12.

summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of

:32:13.:32:19.

the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I

:32:20.:32:23.

want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have

:32:24.:32:30.

got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio

:32:31.:32:34.

at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more

:32:35.:32:39.

money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums

:32:40.:32:43.

add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.

:32:44.:32:48.

They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour

:32:49.:32:54.

Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..

:32:55.:33:02.

Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid

:33:03.:33:06.

off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace

:33:07.:33:13.

compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is

:33:14.:33:17.

decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a

:33:18.:33:21.

society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just

:33:22.:33:25.

the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to

:33:26.:33:27.

contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public

:33:28.:33:31.

are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in

:33:32.:33:36.

the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out

:33:37.:33:41.

clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these

:33:42.:33:46.

things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money

:33:47.:33:54.

through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150

:33:55.:34:01.

billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier

:34:02.:34:07.

estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR

:34:08.:34:11.

programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can

:34:12.:34:16.

say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we

:34:17.:34:23.

will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just

:34:24.:34:27.

checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do

:34:28.:34:32.

you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn

:34:33.:34:36.

round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get

:34:37.:34:41.

worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we

:34:42.:34:44.

would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will

:34:45.:34:50.

knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill

:34:51.:34:55.

Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going

:34:56.:34:58.

to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise

:34:59.:35:01.

they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the

:35:02.:35:07.

Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans

:35:08.:35:12.

that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in

:35:13.:35:18.

12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will

:35:19.:35:22.

hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for

:35:23.:35:28.

the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do

:35:29.:35:33.

they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to

:35:34.:35:38.

bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your

:35:39.:35:44.

party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we

:35:45.:35:49.

have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the

:35:50.:35:53.

opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good

:35:54.:35:57.

enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the

:35:58.:35:59.

Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and

:36:00.:36:05.

on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending

:36:06.:36:08.

national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian

:36:09.:36:12.

intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now

:36:13.:36:18.

in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be

:36:19.:36:22.

able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are

:36:23.:36:26.

heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the

:36:27.:36:30.

war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the

:36:31.:36:34.

last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the

:36:35.:36:38.

way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we

:36:39.:36:43.

used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is

:36:44.:36:47.

in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually

:36:48.:36:49.

getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.

:36:50.:36:54.

Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.

:36:55.:36:59.

It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:37:00.:37:01.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:37:02.:37:04.

Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking

:37:05.:37:07.

about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying

:37:08.:37:09.

off message, again, and the protestors attempting

:37:10.:37:11.

I'm Stewart White. Politics where you are.

:37:12.:37:25.

Later in the programme, why cutting the cost of politics

:37:26.:37:27.

could mean taking the castle out of Castle Point.

:37:28.:37:31.

As the political map is redrawn, Labour claims it's at their expense.

:37:32.:37:37.

It's the first time ever, in the history of this country,

:37:38.:37:39.

that the Government has said how many Parliamentary seats

:37:40.:37:42.

there should be and has told the independent bodies

:37:43.:37:44.

And the row between an MP and his local party over

:37:45.:37:59.

the ?10 million loan to Northampton Town Football Club.

:38:00.:38:01.

I think it's fair to say that the association is disappointed

:38:02.:38:04.

that the MP chooses not to contribute and to

:38:05.:38:06.

Here with us today, the Labour MP for Luton South, Gavin Shuker,

:38:07.:38:13.

and the Conservative MP for Mid Norfolk, George Freeman,

:38:14.:38:18.

who is the chairman of the Prime Minister's policy board.

:38:19.:38:20.

Let's start with the spending plans for this region.

:38:21.:38:23.

The Government expects to spend ?3 billion of public money

:38:24.:38:26.

on new buildings and infrastructure here by 2020.

:38:27.:38:30.

We were given the details this week with the publication

:38:31.:38:32.

of the Treasury's funding plan for the next four years.

:38:33.:38:35.

It tells us what has been promised and when it is

:38:36.:38:38.

More than ?2 billion for road building and maintenance,

:38:39.:38:46.

half a billion pounds for school buildings, 200 million for 150

:38:47.:38:51.

different flood defence projects, there's money to increase capacity

:38:52.:38:54.

on the West Anglia rail line into London and for improvements

:38:55.:38:57.

to police stations, hospitals and prisons.

:38:58.:39:02.

It totals just over ?3 billion of public spending.

:39:03.:39:07.

That's more than most other regions are getting.

:39:08.:39:10.

The big exception is the North West, which gets three

:39:11.:39:12.

I think we are getting our message across.

:39:13.:39:21.

The Government recognises this is an important region.

:39:22.:39:25.

It's an important region because of the growth opportunities,

:39:26.:39:27.

the jobs, the new homes, and the extra income in taxes

:39:28.:39:42.

and so on that can help then support less prosperous parts of the UK.

:39:43.:39:46.

When it comes to road spending, the lion's share of funding

:39:47.:39:49.

is going to the new A14 in Cambridgeshire where

:39:50.:39:51.

There's also money for the Northern Distributor Road around

:39:52.:39:54.

Norwich and for new river crossings in Lowestoft and Ipswich.

:39:55.:39:58.

Plans to improve the A47 in Norfolk and Cambridgeshire and the A12

:39:59.:40:01.

in Essex are listed in the document but, at the moment, there is no

:40:02.:40:04.

money allocated for the project and no proposed start date.

:40:05.:40:06.

Gavin Shuker, this is good news, isn't it?

:40:07.:40:09.

It's always good news when money gets reinvested back in the region.

:40:10.:40:12.

We are net contributors to the UK Treasury.

:40:13.:40:15.

We don't get out the same money we put back in.

:40:16.:40:18.

As long as we do the basics of government.

:40:19.:40:22.

With projects like that, for example, strip out the A14,

:40:23.:40:26.

actually that sum goes quite a far direction.

:40:27.:40:29.

It is important we do these projects.

:40:30.:40:31.

Some have been talked about for years and years

:40:32.:40:33.

We should be investing in the areas where places are going.

:40:34.:40:42.

Forgive me for not getting down on my hands and knees and thanking

:40:43.:40:56.

You're good but you're not that good yet, George, it has to be said.

:40:57.:41:00.

It's a shame it's happening now compared to when it would have made

:41:01.:41:07.

a really big difference to our local economies back in 2010.

:41:08.:41:10.

The A47 was already committed, locked, loaded.

:41:11.:41:18.

It's being held up at the moment by environmental disputes

:41:19.:41:21.

The A47, the 300 million is locked in, and that work is scheduled in.

:41:22.:41:28.

This is also road and rail but also the broadband announcement.

:41:29.:41:31.

Another billion for broadband, an acceleration of

:41:32.:41:33.

Finally, after decades of our region having been pretty neglected

:41:34.:41:37.

actually by governments of all parties, I am really proud

:41:38.:41:39.

that we are really getting to grips with this and investing in the whole

:41:40.:41:43.

Nothing in there about that, although we have announced this week

:41:44.:41:55.

a major step forward, which I hugely applaud

:41:56.:41:58.

Finally, we're going to link two of our famous science and innovation

:41:59.:42:08.

cities and I'm pushing hard for that programme to be extended

:42:09.:42:11.

out through to Norwich, so we build a life, science

:42:12.:42:14.

and innovation line, linking Cambridge and Norwich

:42:15.:42:15.

and that Ely Junction is crucial, both for that...

:42:16.:42:17.

This has come about because cross-pa MPs from the East have

:42:18.:42:21.

The things we disagree on we can carry on disagreeing on.

:42:22.:42:26.

But, actually, put party politics aside, this

:42:27.:42:30.

Let's look at the things that aren't being done

:42:31.:42:36.

My basic concern is these are the things a Government

:42:37.:42:44.

The real devil is in the detail with many of these projects.

:42:45.:42:50.

For example, East-West rail is going to be run by a private

:42:51.:42:53.

company built by a private company, further fragmenting our railways.

:42:54.:42:56.

It doesn't do anything for say commuters coming from Luton,

:42:57.:42:58.

where we spent 6 billion on upgrades but we still cannot get

:42:59.:43:01.

These are some of the basics the Government needs to do,

:43:02.:43:07.

Actually, it is integration on East-West.

:43:08.:43:13.

It is putting track and train together and housing the Mitsui do

:43:14.:43:17.

-- so that we do what the Victorians did and fund rail

:43:18.:43:20.

Let's talk about boundary changes, shall we?

:43:21.:43:24.

In their manifesto, the Conservatives promised

:43:25.:43:26.

This week, the end of the first stage of the public consultation

:43:27.:43:30.

Under the plan, one constituency in this region will disappear

:43:31.:43:33.

completely and a castle goes missing Essex.

:43:34.:43:40.

The growing Essex town got its own MP just six years ago.

:43:41.:43:46.

A merger with neighbouring Maldon could find John Whittingdale

:43:47.:43:49.

The proposal is to cut 50 MPs with only one

:43:50.:43:53.

It's Cabinet Minister Priti Patel's seat that is set to go.

:43:54.:44:12.

I think it's a bit of a shame because you know, Witham

:44:13.:44:15.

We've one MP, voted for her, and we're going to lose her.

:44:16.:44:22.

The chair of Witham Conservatives is supportive of the plans.

:44:23.:44:24.

Are you happy there's going to be this new seat of Maldon and Witham?

:44:25.:44:27.

The proposal is that the new seat will be Witham and Maldon,

:44:28.:44:30.

although perhaps Maldon are submitting that as one

:44:31.:44:32.

The new seat of Witham and Maldon is a more logical boundary.

:44:33.:44:41.

One idea behind redrawing the boundaries was to make sure

:44:42.:44:44.

North West Cambridgeshire is currently the largest mainland

:44:45.:44:47.

constituency in the country with 90,000 voters.

:44:48.:44:53.

It is true to say that there are, in some parts of the country,

:44:54.:44:57.

you get two Labour MPs for the same number of constituents

:44:58.:44:59.

So, the bottom line is, that this is a measure

:45:00.:45:04.

which is being introduced to equalise constituencies

:45:05.:45:06.

That does mean that Labour will have to come to terms with having

:45:07.:45:15.

fewer MPs if proposals go through because that's

:45:16.:45:17.

in the interests of equality, nothing to do with politics.

:45:18.:45:27.

Former Basildon MP and Labour's Leader in the House

:45:28.:45:29.

of Lords is against reducing the number of MPs.

:45:30.:45:31.

Boundary changes, the first time ever in the history of this country

:45:32.:45:34.

that the Government has said how many Parliamentary seats

:45:35.:45:36.

there should be and has told independent bodies how big those

:45:37.:45:39.

If you make seats much bigger, you make it harder

:45:40.:45:48.

for those individual MPs to represent their constituents.

:45:49.:45:50.

In my seat in Norwich, I go from a majority

:45:51.:45:54.

of about 7500 to a majority of about 2000, 3000.

:45:55.:46:01.

If you take into account housing development and where it is going

:46:02.:46:04.

within the Norwich growth area, it becomes pretty much almost

:46:05.:46:07.

The Conservatives know exactly what they're doing, I think.

:46:08.:46:10.

There are some quirks with these new constituencies in the East.

:46:11.:46:14.

Norfolk MP Elizabeth Truss will adopt a little bit of Cambridge,

:46:15.:46:16.

representing the wards of Littleport East and West.

:46:17.:46:22.

Brentwood train station will be in Billericay.

:46:23.:46:24.

That has been our thing, absolutely, that we keep

:46:25.:46:31.

A public consultation has been under way.

:46:32.:46:35.

Wayne Johnson from Benfleet has come up with alternative plans

:46:36.:46:39.

for South Essex and has been backed by hundreds of supporters.

:46:40.:46:43.

Castle Point feel, the community, the whole of Castle Point feel,

:46:44.:46:46.

And should not be part of the South and West constituency.

:46:47.:46:59.

There is still time for changes to be considered.

:47:00.:47:02.

The plan is by 2018 these new constituencies will be set

:47:03.:47:05.

in stone, ready for the voters at the next general election.

:47:06.:47:07.

So, the Conservatives are gerrymandering and it

:47:08.:47:09.

Proper gerrymandering, if you look at the American

:47:10.:47:15.

senatorial and Governor maps, there are huge pan handles.

:47:16.:47:17.

This is us saying, for years, we have been running on basically

:47:18.:47:21.

Labour seats that are on average about 10,000 smaller.

:47:22.:47:24.

It's easy to get elected as a Labour MP.

:47:25.:47:26.

It over represents the old Labour industrial heartlands

:47:27.:47:33.

There are Conservative seats in the House with 90,000 electors in.

:47:34.:47:37.

We want to make constituency sizes equal.

:47:38.:47:40.

It is being done by an independent commission, not by us.

:47:41.:47:43.

You will understand that he is shaking his head.

:47:44.:47:45.

That is the big change this time around.

:47:46.:47:48.

The Boundary Commission is going about its work entirely

:47:49.:47:51.

scrupulously and honestly but they are doing it

:47:52.:47:53.

within a formula that has been very tightly designed.

:47:54.:47:55.

Don't tell me there is no accident in the number of seats that have

:47:56.:47:59.

They are doing it to maximise their own electoral benefit.

:48:00.:48:03.

I've no problem at all with choosing a number or having more

:48:04.:48:11.

At the end of this process, because I'm in an urban area -

:48:12.:48:15.

ethnic minorities, young people and poor people, I will represent

:48:16.:48:19.

many more people than you will in your constituency because it's

:48:20.:48:24.

done on the number of people on the electoral roll and not

:48:25.:48:27.

the number of people that live there.

:48:28.:48:29.

If it was done on the number of people who would live

:48:30.:48:32.

there, we would have no other arguing whatsoever.

:48:33.:48:43.

Actually, in your seat, you're going to be OK, aren't you?

:48:44.:48:47.

This is not about my own electoral benefit.

:48:48.:48:49.

I have to say, my seat will be harder to win

:48:50.:48:51.

Whoever ends up doing my job, whether it's a Labour,

:48:52.:48:55.

Conservative or other, will have a much harder job

:48:56.:48:57.

representing many people who are already voiceless in this

:48:58.:49:00.

process because they're not already registered to vote.

:49:01.:49:01.

I think, when you look at the package that is going through,

:49:02.:49:04.

including the package for the House of Lords by the Tories,

:49:05.:49:11.

it is not a package that is about democracy at all.

:49:12.:49:13.

Most people would look and say, a basic of democracy is that

:49:14.:49:16.

constituencies should be the same size.

:49:17.:49:18.

We are saying, we should have 10% fewer MPs and the independent

:49:19.:49:22.

Boundary Commission should take that opportunity to get all

:49:23.:49:24.

For Clive Lewis to complain he has more affluent voters is ridiculous.

:49:25.:49:29.

We'll have to represent the constituencies we

:49:30.:49:31.

It is not for us to complain about the size of the constituencies,

:49:32.:49:35.

He is arguing about the notion of fairness and not just the people

:49:36.:49:40.

who vote but the people who live there.

:49:41.:49:42.

There is a difference between households and the number of voters.

:49:43.:49:47.

The real point is, for years, Labour has had an in-built

:49:48.:49:50.

You need a much bigger swing as Conservatives to win a general

:49:51.:49:54.

The average size of their seats is smaller.

:49:55.:49:57.

Don't all parties fiddle with the boundaries?

:49:58.:50:00.

Whenever you get into power, if you think you can, you do.

:50:01.:50:03.

This is the thing that is different this time around.

:50:04.:50:06.

Before, we left it to the independent Boundary Commission

:50:07.:50:08.

to decide the number of seats, to decide how best

:50:09.:50:11.

Government has chosen to intervene directly and set

:50:12.:50:15.

I have to say this argument, to say it is easy to get

:50:16.:50:21.

elected as a Labour MP, first of all belies my own

:50:22.:50:24.

experience and the experience of many Labour MPs, but secondly

:50:25.:50:26.

goes to the heart of why, for example, in the last election,

:50:27.:50:29.

it took more constituents voting for a Labour MP across this region

:50:30.:50:32.

This changes over time but we just want basic fairness.

:50:33.:50:50.

That is the cornerstone of our system.

:50:51.:50:52.

Let's talk about the MP at loggerheads with his local party

:50:53.:51:03.

local party over a loan to Northampton Town Football Club.

:51:04.:51:10.

David Mackintosh was the leader of the council when a loan

:51:11.:51:12.

The critical report by the auditors has found there was political

:51:13.:51:16.

pressure to push the loan through and there were not enough

:51:17.:51:19.

checks made on where the money would go.

:51:20.:51:21.

Mr Mackintosh, did you know about the source of the donations?

:51:22.:51:24.

For more than a year, David Mackintosh has refused

:51:25.:51:26.

to answer questions about his role in awarding a loan to

:51:27.:51:29.

A loan of more than ?10 million of taxpayers money.

:51:30.:51:33.

Money that should have been used to redevelop

:51:34.:51:38.

At the time, David Mackintosh was the leader

:51:39.:51:43.

An MP who has dramatically fallen out with senior figures

:51:44.:51:54.

I think it's fair to say the association is disappointed

:51:55.:51:57.

that the MP chooses not to contribute and to

:51:58.:52:01.

answer questions relating to the investigation,

:52:02.:52:03.

relating to these reports, and more importantly relating

:52:04.:52:06.

What is the relationship like between the association

:52:07.:52:14.

It's fair to say there is relationship.

:52:15.:52:25.

Whether it be because of David Mackintosh's duties as MP.

:52:26.:52:33.

He hasn't been able to attend the executive

:52:34.:52:35.

He does not attend the association meetings.

:52:36.:52:42.

And auditors report has suggested Mr Mackintosh

:52:43.:52:45.

officers to agree the loan to quickly and that meant proper

:52:46.:52:49.

In a statement, David Mackintosh said:

:52:50.:53:01.

to discuss that report, an even stronger claim,

:53:02.:53:05.

that councillors were misled about how much work had been done

:53:06.:53:07.

prior to the Cabinet meeting where the loan was approved.

:53:08.:53:13.

At that Cabinet meeting, when three councillors were present

:53:14.:53:16.

and expressed their concerns, we were lied to by the

:53:17.:53:18.

At the time, Councillor David Mackintosh.

:53:19.:53:23.

So, we were lied to, not only we as councillors,

:53:24.:53:26.

but our constituencies, and the people of Northampton, that

:53:27.:53:28.

In a statement, a spokesman for David Mackintosh told us:

:53:29.:53:43.

There are two further investigations into the missing millions

:53:44.:53:45.

One from external auditors KPMG, another criminal investigation

:53:46.:53:51.

It's likely to be some time before we hear the results of either.

:53:52.:53:58.

We know how one member of that executive committee feels,

:53:59.:54:03.

There are certainly others who share her views,

:54:04.:54:12.

not least the chair of that association who, at the weekend

:54:13.:54:19.

told us that David Mackintosh needs

:54:20.:54:20.

Quite how widespread it is, we had expected to find that out

:54:21.:54:25.

on Friday when the party's executive board was due to consider a highly

:54:26.:54:28.

critical mission with some pretty extraordinary language,

:54:29.:54:30.

expressing disappointment and concern at the conduct

:54:31.:54:35.

of David Mackintosh with respect to this alone and saying

:54:36.:54:39.

they are worried that the issue is causing

:54:40.:54:41.

reputational damage for the Conservative Party

:54:42.:54:42.

At the 11th hour, the day before Friday's meeting,

:54:43.:54:45.

the party decided instead they would not consider that motion.

:54:46.:54:48.

We understand senior figures in the National Conservative Party

:54:49.:54:52.

spoke to the local association and agreed to take a more in depth

:54:53.:54:57.

look at the issues surrounding the loan and the role played

:54:58.:55:00.

As a result, the association in turn agreed to put that motion

:55:01.:55:06.

Conservative campaign headquarters do tell us they are not

:55:07.:55:10.

investigating but I get the impression that if the local

:55:11.:55:13.

party is not happy with the response then they could well put this motion

:55:14.:55:17.

If they debated it and if, of course, it was agreed,

:55:18.:55:21.

that would be without doubt a pretty explosive political moment.

:55:22.:55:25.

Well, last week on this programme we told you about the problems

:55:26.:55:30.

facing our university technical colleges.

:55:31.:55:32.

The problem is failing to attract enough people.

:55:33.:55:37.

This week they announced it will close next year.

:55:38.:55:44.

It cost ?10 million to build and only opened two years ago.

:55:45.:55:47.

It can take 600 students but, at the moment, it's only 25% full.

:55:48.:55:50.

The trustees have decided it's no longer viable.

:55:51.:55:55.

Some students have only been one term.

:55:56.:56:06.

Now they will have to find somewhere else to go.

:56:07.:56:09.

There is a really strong success story there.

:56:10.:56:15.

I do entirely accept that one or two of the UTCs have not thrived.

:56:16.:56:18.

Even at Daventry, we are making energetic plans to make sure

:56:19.:56:21.

that the youngsters at Daventry, who wish to continue

:56:22.:56:23.

in the UTC programme, will be able to transfer

:56:24.:56:29.

The trust was set up by former Education Secretary Ken Baker

:56:30.:56:33.

to promote university technical colleges.

:56:34.:56:35.

Why is it that not enough was done to prepare for this

:56:36.:56:38.

The UTCs, generally, they have been applauded and welcomed.

:56:39.:56:45.

They do important work in pushing forward and developing

:56:46.:56:47.

As the clip showed, they have a very good track record

:56:48.:56:53.

in qualifying people for high quality apprenticeships.

:56:54.:56:57.

He did not go on the speaking circuit, he has kept at it

:56:58.:57:03.

and committed his life to driving through educational standards.

:57:04.:57:09.

There is a problem here locally for the good to hear Silverstone

:57:10.:57:12.

will be making itself available so local students won't suffer.

:57:13.:57:15.

There is a difficulty getting people to go to them.

:57:16.:57:17.

I think, when you are changing the educational ecosystem,

:57:18.:57:22.

making available more provision, we have shifted the emphasis

:57:23.:57:25.

strongly to promote the occasional and technical training,

:57:26.:57:32.

that takes a while to filter through.

:57:33.:57:42.

-- vocational and technical training.

:57:43.:57:44.

We are developing choice and diversity more broadly in schools.

:57:45.:57:46.

The old days of, there are two types of school

:57:47.:57:49.

It takes time for people to realise this is a different option

:57:50.:57:55.

Cross-party, most people agree UTCs are a good idea but it's just

:57:56.:57:59.

I have some sympathy with that position.

:58:00.:58:09.

You've got to do more on science, maths and those skills which prepare

:58:10.:58:21.

On a cross-party basis we are trying to do that.

:58:22.:58:30.

The second thing, I think there is a weird thing in our system

:58:31.:58:34.

at the minute where we can't decide whether students are meant to choose

:58:35.:58:37.

at 11 the future direction or their direction at 14.

:58:38.:58:39.

I think you're much more empowered to make those choices.

:58:40.:58:42.

That is why this stuff around grammar schools and the 11

:58:43.:58:45.

plus is such an odd thing to dump into the system.

:58:46.:58:48.

Where we should be going is saying that, at 14, people are making

:58:49.:58:51.

a choice about 14-19 and the rest of their lives beyond that.

:58:52.:58:54.

Now for our round-up of the political week in 60 seconds

:58:55.:58:59.

Transport Secretary Chris Grayling has announced that a new company

:59:00.:59:04.

will be created to run the so-called Varsity rail line, linking

:59:05.:59:06.

Bedford and Milton Keynes to Oxford and Cambridge.

:59:07.:59:08.

This East-West rail organisation will be established early

:59:09.:59:10.

in the New Year and chaired by the former chief executive

:59:11.:59:20.

400 land and business owners went to Westminster this week to call

:59:21.:59:25.

on ministers not to forget the countryside when they decide

:59:26.:59:28.

There are many other things we could be doing with our space.

:59:29.:59:32.

The South Cambridgeshire MP, Heidi Allen, has announced

:59:33.:59:35.

she will stand for election as the first directly elected

:59:36.:59:38.

They are the big items in the devolution deal.

:59:39.:59:42.

It feels like I'm doing a big chunk of the job already.

:59:43.:59:47.

And the Justice Secretary, Liz Truss, revealed the latest

:59:48.:59:49.

weapon in the fight against the use of drones near prisons.

:59:50.:59:52.

They have now got patrol dogs who are barking,

:59:53.:59:56.

It prompted several suggestions on Twitter, including this one

:59:57.:00:00.

And there is nothing you can say about that.

:00:01.:00:10.

Both of you, thank you for being with us.

:00:11.:00:12.

Now it is back to Andrew in the studio.

:00:13.:00:14.

still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.

:00:15.:00:16.

Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked

:00:17.:00:30.

by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian

:00:31.:00:33.

revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged

:00:34.:00:35.

in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking

:00:36.:00:37.

the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally

:00:38.:00:40.

in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned

:00:41.:00:43.

The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it

:00:44.:00:50.

And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks

:00:51.:00:58.

were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right

:00:59.:01:00.

of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi

:01:01.:01:03.

terrorists from over the border with Yemen,

:01:04.:01:05.

didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore

:01:06.:01:08.

Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...

:01:09.:01:15.

This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.

:01:16.:01:18.

The way it was interpreted left people with the impression

:01:19.:01:20.

that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.

:01:21.:01:29.

Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital

:01:30.:01:31.

Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?

:01:32.:01:33.

Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring

:01:34.:01:35.

Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.

:01:36.:01:42.

It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest

:01:43.:01:47.

in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are

:01:48.:01:52.

the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be

:01:53.:01:58.

honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall

:01:59.:02:03.

story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that

:02:04.:02:08.

Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a

:02:09.:02:12.

story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there

:02:13.:02:17.

was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between

:02:18.:02:21.

London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring

:02:22.:02:26.

and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are

:02:27.:02:30.

taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris

:02:31.:02:34.

Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I

:02:35.:02:39.

tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting

:02:40.:02:45.

Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis

:02:46.:02:49.

got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the

:02:50.:02:52.

Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just

:02:53.:02:56.

what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they

:02:57.:03:00.

see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this

:03:01.:03:04.

conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two

:03:05.:03:10.

ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing

:03:11.:03:14.

Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region

:03:15.:03:20.

earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine

:03:21.:03:27.

what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three

:03:28.:03:34.

words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick

:03:35.:03:42.

to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,

:03:43.:03:46.

although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech

:03:47.:03:53.

which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night

:03:54.:03:58.

which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in

:03:59.:04:04.

withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3

:04:05.:04:09.

billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases

:04:10.:04:14.

exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the

:04:15.:04:18.

world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen

:04:19.:04:21.

and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't

:04:22.:04:26.

entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we

:04:27.:04:30.

have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in

:04:31.:04:36.

Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes

:04:37.:04:42.

and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both

:04:43.:04:47.

saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is

:04:48.:04:52.

going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't

:04:53.:04:57.

going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners

:04:58.:05:02.

and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of

:05:03.:05:08.

bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals

:05:09.:05:12.

and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases

:05:13.:05:17.

with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.

:05:18.:05:22.

Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street

:05:23.:05:30.

reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important

:05:31.:05:35.

development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They

:05:36.:05:39.

want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should

:05:40.:05:43.

be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another

:05:44.:05:46.

example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that

:05:47.:05:51.

the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed

:05:52.:05:57.

post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I

:05:58.:06:02.

think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I

:06:03.:06:06.

think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel

:06:07.:06:12.

threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and

:06:13.:06:15.

many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival

:06:16.:06:22.

for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May

:06:23.:06:25.

trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain

:06:26.:06:31.

is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,

:06:32.:06:36.

post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are

:06:37.:06:40.

breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,

:06:41.:06:45.

democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying

:06:46.:06:51.

ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should

:06:52.:06:57.

we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,

:06:58.:07:05.

these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.

:07:06.:07:09.

Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply

:07:10.:07:13.

collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession

:07:14.:07:17.

depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think

:07:18.:07:22.

what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,

:07:23.:07:26.

we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the

:07:27.:07:29.

most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep

:07:30.:07:36.

saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.

:07:37.:07:40.

Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.

:07:41.:07:45.

The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is

:07:46.:07:49.

a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,

:07:50.:07:55.

or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.

:07:56.:08:00.

Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for

:08:01.:08:04.

breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you

:08:05.:08:08.

make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It

:08:09.:08:13.

is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take

:08:14.:08:16.

this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost

:08:17.:08:21.

tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a

:08:22.:08:26.

huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft

:08:27.:08:31.

carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep

:08:32.:08:36.

the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just

:08:37.:08:44.

Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is

:08:45.:08:49.

more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no

:08:50.:08:54.

change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now

:08:55.:09:01.

we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.

:09:02.:09:07.

Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be

:09:08.:09:15.

trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be

:09:16.:09:18.

turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I

:09:19.:09:23.

don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC

:09:24.:09:27.

has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the

:09:28.:09:31.

weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us

:09:32.:09:37.

move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was

:09:38.:09:40.

inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.

:09:41.:09:41.

Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?

:09:42.:09:54.

Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then

:09:55.:09:56.

Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a

:09:57.:10:10.

distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be

:10:11.:10:16.

able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do

:10:17.:10:20.

something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather

:10:21.:10:26.

than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in

:10:27.:10:29.

general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning

:10:30.:10:35.

what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was

:10:36.:10:42.

interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had

:10:43.:10:45.

they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other

:10:46.:10:53.

than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics

:10:54.:10:58.

which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the

:10:59.:11:02.

British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the

:11:03.:11:08.

Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the

:11:09.:11:11.

things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is

:11:12.:11:15.

happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry

:11:16.:11:20.

watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last

:11:21.:11:24.

week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the

:11:25.:11:30.

west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.

:11:31.:11:37.

And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily

:11:38.:11:41.

Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If

:11:42.:11:47.

and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are

:11:48.:11:52.

talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than

:11:53.:11:57.

anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We

:11:58.:12:01.

will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I

:12:02.:12:05.

understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from

:12:06.:12:08.

analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it

:12:09.:12:12.

is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator

:12:13.:12:16.

of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in

:12:17.:12:22.

reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far

:12:23.:12:27.

you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty

:12:28.:12:32.

much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and

:12:33.:12:36.

the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the

:12:37.:12:39.

press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is

:12:40.:12:44.

behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.

:12:45.:12:49.

He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much

:12:50.:12:55.

of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is

:12:56.:12:59.

time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the

:13:00.:13:04.

cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,

:13:05.:13:08.

you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree

:13:09.:13:15.

at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want

:13:16.:13:21.

to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a

:13:22.:13:25.

reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,

:13:26.:13:27.

that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.

:13:28.:13:32.

I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily

:13:33.:13:38.

Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.

:13:39.:13:41.

and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.

:13:42.:13:44.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:45.:13:52.

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