23/03/2014 Sunday Politics South East

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. The dust has barely

settled on George Osborne's Budget and, amazingly, for once it hasn't

all gone horribly wrong by the weekend. So, is this the election

springboard the Tories needed, and where does it leave Labour? Turns

out the big Budget surprise was a revolution in how we pay for old

age. The Pensions Minister says he's relaxed if you want to spend it all

on a Lamborghini. He'll join us later. And could the man with the

maracas be on his way to Westminster? Bez from the Happy

And in the South East... A new boost plan

And in the South East... A new boost for an old plan, so will thd

Chancellor's Garden City at Ebbsfleet succeed where previous

house`building projects havd failed? In London, the Mafia man gets to

stay in Axbridge. Are there ways of making the European arrest warrant

work better? -- Uxbridge. And who better to help guide you through all

of that than three journalists, who dispense wisdom faster than Grant

Shapps calls out the numbers in his local bingo hall over a pint of

beer. Yes, they're hard-working and they're doing the things they enjoy.

Cup of tea, number three. It's Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee and Janan

Ganesh. So, George Osborne delivered his

fifth Budget on Wednesday and had so many glowing front pages the day

afterwards he must be running out of room to pin them up in on his

bedroom wall. Although it's probably a pretty big wall. For those of you

who didn't have time to watch 3 5 hours of Budget coverage on the BBC,

here's Giles with the whole thing in three minutes.

Budget days have a rhythm of their own, driven partly by tradition

like that photocall at 11 Downing Street and part logistics, how to

get this important statement out and explain to those whom it affects -

us? Behind-the-scenes of a Budget Day is much the same. This ritual

red boxery may be the beginning of the end of weeks of work behind the

scenes in the Treasury and sets the clock ticking on the process of

finding out the answer to one question. You got any rabbits in the

box, Chancellor? Yes, there will be something in the Budget we don't

know about. Time marches steadily towards the statement and already

commentators are hovering over what those potential surprises are. As

Big Ben chimes, all focus returns to the Commons, where there is Prime

Minister's questions and the Chancellor gets up and does his

thing. Once he's on his feet and remembering there is still no copy

of the details, the major measures are rapidly highlighted as they come

and then put up on screen. A cap on Government welfare spending set for

2015/16 at 119 billion. Income tax personal allowance raised to

?10,500. Bingo duty halved, which ticked boxes for some but was

unlikely to make anyone a poster boy. And the beer tax cut of 1p or

the froth on the top. And changes to pensions allowing people to take

their money out in one lump sum rather than being forced to accept a

fixed annual pay-out, or annuity. This is a Budget for the makers the

doers and the savers and I commend it to the House. Not everyone can

focus on the Budget by listening to what the Chancellor says. We need to

get a copy of the script. We do not get that till he sits down. I'm

going to go into the House of Commons to get that right now. There

will be a response on that and all the other things from Mr Miliband.

The Chancellor spoke for nearly an hour but he did not mention one

essential fact, the working people of Britain are worse off under the

Tories. It is a tricky job answering the Budget at the best of times

though some, including Labour MPs, think it is better to mention the

Budget when you do. Here we are. I am going to go. I am

not the only journalist missing Ed Miliband's speech. Many others leave

the Chamber as the Chancellor sits down to attend a special briefing

from the Chancellor's advisory team. I am hotfoot to the studio. There is

a little more detail to the Budget than the Budget Speech. That detail

can be whether words unravel and other interpretations emerge. By now

the gaggle of supporters and detractors are taking the debate

onto the airwaves. Are you the BBC? Have the Daily Politics packed up?

No, we're still standing and, days later, still trying to assess

whether the measures announced still seem fresh and appetising or have

already gone stale in the minds of voters?

How significant are these two poles this morning putting Labour and Tory

nip and tuck? Osborne gave his party a good bounce. It was an

astonishingly theatrical coup. At first glance, it seems like a huge

gift to all people. That is where all of the money has been channelled

by this government. They have been ultra-protected, triple locked.

Pensioners have done very well and others less well. It is not

surprising. Normally a budget which is well received on the day and the

day after has unravelled by the weekend. This time, it has not, so

far. The dangerous thing for the Labour Party now, George Osborne is

the assessment this thing called the baseline. He says, in government,

you must control the baseline. The Labour party controlled in 2001 and

2005 and he needs to control it next time. He is controlling it on fiscal

policy because labour is matching them on everything. The danger for

Labour on the big, headline grabbing issue, which was freeing up

annuities on pensions, that again Labour was pretty much saying it was

going to support it though it were saying it has to be fair and

cost-effective. On a big, policy issue, they are following on behind

George Osborne. George Osborne is controlling the crucial baseline.

Are we in danger of reading too much into the political implications of

the budget? The good thing about the pensions policy is, if it does

unravel, it will not happen for ten years and, by that time, George

Osborne will have left office. Towards the end of his speech, I

thought, that is not enough. There is not an idea in your budget which

is politically very vivid a year before an election. What I

underestimated was, how many frustrated savers that are in the

country. There are a lot of people who are frustrated by low interest

rates and tax rates on pension pots. This was an explicit gesture for

them. That is what has paid off in the polls in the past few days. You

spend all of your money on your wardrobe, is that right? The bingo

poster was a kind of get out of jail card for Labour. It gave them

something to zoom in on. Everyone beat up on Grant Shapps, the Tory

chairman. We read in the daily Telegraph that the fingerprints of

the Chancellor were all over this poster. The Chancellor signed off it

-- off on it and so did Lynton Crosby. They referred to working

class people as, they are. How did it get into the Telegraph? We can

only presume but grant Shapps made it clear that it was not him. We had

a time when Labour politicians, we saw from the response of Ed Miliband

onwards, they were not quite sure how to react to this budget. A lot

of detail had to be absorbed. Suddenly, here is something we can

talk about. You can see the thinking behind the poster was very sensible.

We are not Tory toffs, we are interested in helping people who do

not come from our backgrounds. The wording was awful and played into

every cliche. It was all his fault. It shows how unsophisticated he

was. There were people from Tory HQ who agreed the budget. A month down

the line will the budget look as good? Probably. Once people look at

it, pensions are fiendishly conjugated. Once they look and see

what it will do with people having to pay for their own care because

they can now take capital at their pension, that will come as a shock

to a lot of people with small savings. It all be gone on their

care. The polling will be neck and neck all the way. In the past,

George Osborne has been accused of using his Budgets to tinker at the

margins or pull cheap tricks on his political opponents. Perish the

thought. But the big surprise in this year's statement was a

genuinely radical shake-up of the pensions system that will affect

most people who've yet to retire. At the moment, everyone is saving money

into a defined contribution pension, that is the type most common in the

private sector. They can take 2 % of the pot is a tax-free lump sum when

they retire. The rest of the money, for most people, they are forced to

buy an annuity, a form of insurance which provide a guaranteed monthly

income until they die. Annuities have hardly been a bargain since

interest rates were flat slashed following the financial crash. Even

with a ?100,000 pension pot would only get an income of ?5,800 a year

at current rates. From 2018, pensioners will not be forced to buy

an annuity. They can do what they like with their money, even taking

the entire pot as a lump some but paying tax on 75% of it.

With an average pension pot closer to around ?30,000, pensioners would

be more likely to buy a Skoda instead of a Lamborghini. Most newly

retired people who take the cash are more likely to spend the money

paying off their mortgage, helping a family member to buy a property or

investing the money elsewhere. Well, earlier I spoke to the Pensions

Minister. He's a Lib Dem called Steve Webb. I began by asking him if

he still thought the reforms might lead to pensioners splurging all

their savings on supercars. What this reform is about is treating

people as adults. For far too long, we have said, we will make sure you

save for your old age and then we will control each year how much is

spent on what you spend it on. What we are saying is because we have

formed -- reformed the state pension, we will be much more

relaxed about what people do with their own money. The evidence is

that people who have been frugal and saved hard for retirement do not

generally blows a lot. They will spin it out. It is treating people

as adults and giving them choices they should have had all along. It

is a red herring, isn't it? The average pension pot is between 5000

and 30,000. Lamborghinis aren't an option, correct? I gather only about

5000 people a year retiring can buy a flashy Italian sports car. It

might be about paying off a mortgage, paying off outstanding

debts. Maybe spending more money earlier in retirement when they are

fit and able and can enjoy it more. We will give people guidance. We

will make sure when they retire there is someone to have a

conversation with talking through the implications of spending the

money early and options of investing it. This will be a real step

forward. Even if you have a much bigger pension pot, say half ?1

million, which is way bigger than the average, even then the marginal

rates of tax will be a disincentive to take it all out at once. You will

lose huge chunks of it at the 4 % band and then the 45% band. The tax

system gives you the incentive to spread it out if the tax threshold

is a bit over 10000 and the state pension is a bit over 7000, the

first 3000 you draw out in a given year is tax-free. The next band is

at 20%. Spreading your money will mean you pay less tax. That is why,

in general, people will not blow the lot up front. They will spread it

out over their retirement. You have kept this policy quiet. Not even a

hint. How did you test it? How did you make sure it would be robust?

You did not do a consultation. I have been talking about freeing up

the annuity market for a decade The idea of giving people more choice.

The government has relaxed rules over this Parliament. It was not a

completely new idea. We know in places like Australia and America,

people have these freedoms. We already have something to judge it

by. We will spend the next year talking to people, working it

through. There will be a three-month consultation. I want people to have

choices about their own money. There is detail still to be worked out and

we are in listening mode about how we implement it. When you announce

something you cannot do widespread consultation, for the reasons I have

given, you do run the risk of unforeseen consequences? Pension

companies this morning are indicating, you, the government can

write you are looking for ?25 billion of infrastructure investment

from us. You hold our shell below the water line. That may not happen.

We spoke internally about the implications for instruction --

infrastructure. It seems to me there will still be long-term investments.

Many people want to turn their whole pot into an income. I understand the

insurance companies are lobbying, but I'm convinced there will still

be plenty of money for investment and infrastructure. If the

Chancellor's pro-savings measures work, that will generate more

savings. With no requirement now to buy an annuity, surely it is the

case that pension pots are another ordinary savings fund, so why should

they continue to get favourable tax treatment? Bear in mind that a lot

of the tax treatment of pensioners is tax deferred so most people pay

tax at the standard rate. If they put money into a pension, they don't

pay tax when they earn it, but they do at retirement. We do want, we

will still have automatic enrolment into workplace pensions, we do want

people to build up, because at age 20 and 30 nobody thinks about

retirement. It is still vital that people do reach retirement to have

these new choices with a decent sized pension pot. Pensions. Tax

breaks because they were supposed to provide an income in retirement

that is how it was structured, but that is no longer a requirement

surely that undermines the case that if they get tax breaks, other forms

of savings should get tax breaks. Other forms do get tax breaks, of

course. The return with ISAs is tax free. The point with pensions is

that you are simply deferring your earnings. There is a bit when high

tax rate payers get a kick when they are working and then retire on

standard rate, so there is the issue of the top getting too many tax

breaks, but the basic principle that you pay tax when you get the income

seems right to me and isn't affected by these changes. You have announced

save friendly measures, are we right to look at them as a consolation

prize because savers have suffered from the Government's policy of

keeping interest rates abnormally low? It is certainly the case that

very low interest rates have been a huge boon to people of working age

with mortgages, and people who have retired said they thought they could

have got a better deal on their savings. I think there is a

recognition that whilst we have done the right thing with pensioners on

the state pension, we have brought in the triple lock, and many will

bent on -- benefit from these changes. Why don't savers who are

not pensioners get the same help? They have been hit by low interest

rates as well. Those of working age, many of them say they have

benefited from low interest rates was predominantly people in

retirement have not had the benefit. Obviously people of working age will

have benefited from the tax allowance so it is a myth to say the

Budget was all about pensioners And yet even when the Office for Budget

Responsibility takes into account your new measures, it still shows

that over the next five years households will save less and less,

indeed the savings ratio falls by 50%. You haven't done enough. One of

the things we know is that the economy is picking up strongly, and

as we have more confidence about the future they will be more willing to

consume now, so without these measures it may be that the saving

rate would have fallen further. We want people to save and spend, it is

about getting the right balance As the economy picks up, people will

want to spend more of their money and it is about getting the balance

right. You make the point that if people are little profligate with

their private pensions, they will have the state pension to fall back

on and it will be higher than it has been, but it is also the case that

in these circumstances they will still be entitled to housing benefit

and even to perhaps some council tax benefit as well. Do you know by how

much this could put the welfare bill up? We think the impact will be

relatively modest because the sort of people who save for a pension and

make sacrifices while they are at work are not the sort of people who

get to 65 and decide to blow the lot for the great privilege of receiving

council tax benefit or housing benefit. There will be people on the

margins and benefit. There will be people on the

who retire with some capital want to put some money away for their

funeral. People like to save even into retirement so the myth of the

spendthrift pensioner I don't believe. I think this has been

rightly welcomed. Ever fancied a Lamborghini yourself? If you turned

the camera around you would see my 2-door Corsa!

What's your favourite thing about an election? Could it be the candidates

ringing on your door while you're having dinner? The leaflets piling

up on your doormat? Or the endless adverts aimed at hardworking

families? Well, if you thought that was bad enough, then you might want

to consider going overseas for the 2015 election because the parties

are going to be aiming their message at you like never before. Adam's

been to Worcester to find out more. One of the most famous political

figures in history lived here, she is called Worcester woman. She was

in her 30s, working class with a couple of kids, aspirational yet

worried about quality of life. But she wasn't a real person, she was a

label for the kind of voter new Labour were trying to reach and she

was later joined by Mondeo man and several others. Doesn't that all

seem a bit 90s? The technique, called segmentation, was used by

George Bush in 2004. Then refined by Barack Obama. Rather than focusing

on crude measures like cars and hometowns, they delved into the

minds of voters. It is not just women, not just people who live in

cities, but if you start to put together these groups of people you

can even in an anecdote or way imagine who they are, what types of

language and imagery might relate to them. We have been given access to a

new polling model being used here by this firm, which is pretty close to

the one we are told is being used by the Tories. It carves the country

into six personality types, and we are trying it out on Worcester woman

and wast of man. We are using an online quiz to work out who is in

which segment. Meet new monk, Susie. She feels well represented. I

know the Budget and the increases to childcare, I think at the moment I

am fairly represented. This puts her in the category of optimistic

contentment, people who feel they are doing OK. Terry, on the other

hand, isn't happy about Britain today. Health and safety and all

that! I hardly recognise the country a living in any more? Yes. Are you

ready for the result? He is Mr comfortable nostalgia, they tend to

favour the Tories and UKIP. They dislike the cultural changes they

see as altering Britain for the worst. That sums me up. Tony is

worried as well but feels much less secure. I look forward to the future

with optimism or anxiety? Anxiety. Optimist or pessimist? Pessimist.

His category is... You feel a bit insecure, you think the Government

could probably help you more? Yes. Labour picks up a lot of these

voters. This man is being asked to do more and more at work, but he is

getting less and less. I am getting more towards the despair side.

Things are getting tougher, generally? It puts him into the

segment called long-term despair, people who feel left out. Finally,

this is ever thoughtful Carol. I am a bit of an idealist. Her idealism

makes her a cosmopolitan critic I am a liberal person. Apparently a

lot of the media fit into this category as well. There is one group

of voters we have not come across, people who show calm persistence.

They hope things will get better but don't expect them to. They are

coping, rather than comfortable Presumably they are all out of work.

Which group are you win? You can take the poll on the BBC website,

and in the coming weeks we will be doing our own polling using the six

segments to see of the politicians really have worked out how we think.

And as Adam said, if you want to try the survey for yourself, you can go

to the BBC website and click on the link.

And we're joined now by the pollster, Rick Nye. Welcome to

Sunday Politics. We have had Worcester woman, Worcester man, is

this any different? It is a recognition that or politician -

all politics these days is like this. It enables them to cut them

more finally. You think all politics is coalition politics, you think

they have to put together these groups of people, not that the Lib

Dems will always be in power? No, and if you listen to the coverage

these days you might think it is about grumpy old men on the one hand

with Guardian readers on the other. It is far more complicated than

that, there is a lot of churning going on underneath which is driven

by people's value systems. A lot of this has been pioneered in the

United States, very sophisticated on their election techniques, and in

Britain we are always the first to grab whatever the New Year will is

from America. How do you think this will translate to this country? I

think it means that if you are target photo you will still get the

same of leaflets and people calling, but you will probably have different

kinds of conversations because people on the other side, the party

campaigners, will think they know more about you. Will I know who you

are? If I am a party campaigner will I know, looking down the

street, who fits into which category? You will be able to

approximate that with all of the other data that you have gathered

through polling, or doing local campaigning, that is the idea to

make sense of this vast quantity of data people have about voters. We

asked our panel to fill in your survey. Nick is optimistic

contentment, 99%. He was 1% cosmopolitan critic, which is how he

keeps his job at the Guardian. Polly's job could not be more

secure, 100% cosmopolitan critics, and Janan Ganesh, optimistic

contentment, which is what you would expect from a financial Times

columnist. What do you make of this technique? Why are you only 99? It

sounds really clever. 95% of the population five years ago voted

Labour or the Conservatives. We have got away from that. It is coalition

politics. You need sophisticated methods. Presumably you must not

lose touch with basic points. You said it was used in the US

presidential elections. Wasn't there them moment emit Romney 's sweet

when the initial response was, we did not know the sort of people

voted. His next response was, we did not know these people existed.

Unless you know about certain key demographics, you are wasting your

time. Is it important in modern campaigning? I think it is useful

because it is about attitude. We have got Mosaic. We have got Acorn.

It does not tell us very much. What people think and feel may be

different to their income. You can be quite a high earner and anxious.

You can be quite a low earner and feeling aspirational and optimistic

about the future. I think this does get something else. In days gone by,

particularly in America, overwhelmingly, if you are in the

better of segment, you would be Republican and the blue-collar

workers and some academics and Liberals voted Democrat. In the last

election, the richest 200 counties in America voted Democrat. That is

an attitude thing. Income does not tell you how people will vote. There

is a huge, working-class base of support for the Republicans. It is

unavoidable. Add a time when people no longer identify with ideologies

or class blocks, you have to go the temperament and lifestyle and

manageable. In America there were 128 segments according to lifestyle

and Outlook. Once you get to that stage, it becomes close to useless.

We were talking about the budget earlier. What other polls saying

about the budget? The lead of labour has been narrowed over the

Conservatives. -- Labour. Osborne and Cameron as an academic team have

always had a lead over Miller band and Balls. This week it is about

economic management. -- over Mr Miller band.

Thank you for being with us today. It's just gone 11:30am. You're

watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who

leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in 20

minutes: Coming up later... Are schools ready

to provide more support for children with medical problems like dpilepsy?

We look at what the law says now. Both my guests in studio today have

a particular interest in th`t subject. Paul Carter has bedn the

leader of Kent County Counchl since 2005. Before that, he was in charge

of education in the county. Also with us today the Labour Prospective

Parliamentary Candidate for Crawley Chris Oxlade, who's also bedn a

fundraiser for epilepsy charities. Welcome to you both. Let's start

with what this week's budget means here in the South East. When George

Osborne stood up at the Dispatch Box on Wednesday afternoon he whll have

had a keen eye on the gener`l election next year. And before that

of course you get to vote in local and European Elections in M`y. Will

you be swayed by the Chancellor s measures on pensions or potholes?

Maybe the VAT saving on fuel for the Kent Surrey and Sussex

air`ambulances means the most to you. Then of course there's the

Ebbsfleet house`building announcement. And we'll comd to that

in a moment. Paul Carter, sdtting aside Ebbsfleet, because we will

talk about that in more det`il, what is the one announcement frol your

Conservative Chancellor that will make it easier for you to c`mpaign

ahead of local, European and the general election? Well, I think

there is something in it for everybody, as the Chancellor said.

Certainly, for the silver s`vers, certainly, pension changes. I think

everybody will be delighted, both businesses and individuals, that

fuel duty has been frozen for a further period, which is good news

for everybody. You mentioned the change to annuities that sole people

prefer to as take your penshon pot and do what you like with it, is

that enough to shore up Torx support? Against the UKIP strge in

the south`east? I think it's a very good policy. I have always thought

it was rather unfair that whth half of the pot you have to buy `n

annuity and if you're not in good health when you get to that age you

still have to buy an annuitx. So, I think there are all sorts of

benefits there and I think lost importantly, it will liven tp those

that provide those annuity policies to be more competitive and give

their customers more than they have in the past. Chris, it would be

interesting at the May elections, Crawley Borough Council, I lean

Crawley generally, is prettx marginal when it comes to politics.

You told me earlier, Labour needs just three seats to take ovdrall

control, so what is going to make a difference? What's going to win you

those three seats? The thing is what was missing from the btdget is

really what is affecting Cr`wley people at the moment. There's a huge

problem with low pay in the town, basically, there is a ?5,500

difference from if you live and work in Crawley than if you work in

Crawley and live outside Cr`wley. And also, there is nothing hn the

budget that really affected anything from gas prices, electricitx prices

or childcare. Bingo, beer, do they make a difference at all? Wdll, we

saw from quite frankly the patronising ads that have bden

flying around the social media, exactly what the Conservatives think

about, so, although we have a big bingo hall right in the middle of

Crawley, drinking 320 pints to get one free doesn't really appdal to

most people. OK, so, for yot, it would have been about low w`ges Is

that what you would have wanted a Labour Chancellor to promisd? It's a

big issue in Crawley. We nedd to bring up that minimum wage like was

promised up to ?7, where it's sitting at the moment, you're

talking about just a few pence additions to people's incomds in

Crawley. Paul Carter, do yot think the minimum wage is high enough in

this country? I think it is appropriate. I think the good news

is that unemployment is going down. And that unexpected growth figure in

the economy is growing at 2.7% per year. Who would have dreamt of that

three, four years ago. That's really good news. And benefits going up by

inflation, linked to inflathon, over the coming years. OK. Well, let s

stick with the budget and the most dramatic announcement for the South

East. Plans to build a 'Garden City' of 15 thousand new homes in

Ebbsfleet in Kent. Now, it's not the first time plans have been looted.

In fact, permission was granted to start building there some ydars ago.

Here's the Chancellor speakhng on Wednesday. Now, the opposithon have

said that they have already announced their homes in Ebbsfleet a

decade ago. And they did make the announcement, and you know how many

homes have been built since then? Less than 300. It was more dbb than

fleet, and instead, we're going to build 15,000 homes there, ptt in the

infrastructure, set up the Development Corporation and make it

happen. It was more ebb than fleet. Let's find out a little bit more on

the details on this one. Let's hear from Doctor Hugh Ellis from the Town

and Country Planning Associ`tion. Thank you for joining us. Do you

welcome George Osborne's Ebbsfleet garden city? I think we do overall,

although the reservations are certainly there. This is not a new

amount of housing for the south`east. It has to be sahd in the

context of us needing 240,000 new homes per year, so we do have a

housing crisis to deal with. I think Ebbsfleet is a starting point on

that basis, but we are keen to understand whether it's new housing

or if you said, whether it's existing, planned housing, `nd what

the quality will be, and particularly what the affordability

will be. What does it need to be, to your mind? What is important when

this house`building project does get under way properly? Well, what the

Chancellor announced was a garden city, and if you're serious about a

garden city, that is a very powerful and high bar. It means very high

environmental standards, grden space, very powerful social housing

offered. But it also means long`term assets in the community, usdd for

the future benefit of that community. Because some of our

garden cities are still using their funds to reinvest in the colmunity.

It makes them financially self`sustaining. But all of us, of

course, need some very careful planning and it needs investment in

high quality. Is this why wd need an urban development Corporation?

Because whether or not it's new or old housing that is being

re`announced, it's got stuck. What does the Urban Development

Corporation do to unstick it? Well, I guess some of the issues `t

Ebbsfleet about joining up infrastructure provision and housing

have proved difficult. That's mainly due to lack of investment, but the

Urban Development Corporation is a body that is just very powerful

that can organise and plan `nd give planning permission in a very

effective and timely way. So, I guess that is what the government is

trying to deliver. It raises issues about how the communities involved

in that process would need to be sorted out. But on the whold, we

welcome it, because it will drive the sort of housing growth that we

need. You talked at the beghnning about the need for much higher

house`building numbers than we're seeing here. Politically, this is an

easy hit, isn't it? The comlunity pretty much has been expecthng there

to be a lot of house`building in North Kent for years and ye`rs. I

think in fact, they have bedn wondering where it is. It's also a

Brownfield site. Some of thd infrastructure is there. Will other

big developments of this nature be harder to sell? That's the crucial

question. If you really want to deal with the Southeast housing crisis,

you need to set housing provision in the context of England as a whole.

You'd need a programme of ndw garden cities. Some in the Southeast, some

elsewhere in England. And this really is the announcement of

existing provision. So, if the government is serious, it ndeds a

long`term strategy for houshng in this country. High`quality housing.

Which really takes in the n`tion as a whole and factors in some of the

opportunities and constraints that exist in the south`east. Th`nk you

very much indeed, Dr Ellis from the Town and Country Planning

Association. So, Paul Carter, let's pick up on this Urban Development

Corporation, to try to make this stuck project actually start

properly. Are you concerned about an unelected body getting control of

planning in your county? Well, I hope local government and dhstrict

councils and Kent County Cotncil have a role to play in that

Corporation. But the Development Corporation will have at his

disposal, some of the 200 mhllion that George Osborne announcdd on

budget day. And it will delhver carrots and sticks. The carrots are

a bit of money to help fund the necessary infrastructure. Btt the

sticks, and we await the detail on that, have got to be the pace of

delivery, because that site has had planning consent for many ydars now.

OK, so can you punish Land Securities? They are developer here.

Can you punish them for not getting on with it? Well, development

corporations historically h`ve always had compulsory purch`se

powers. So, get on with it, Land Securities, build a sensibld number

of houses quickly. To a good quality and good standard. And to bd fair to

Land Securities, the origin`l plans have always been for a very good

quality development in eastdrn quarry. But with a threat h`nging

over them that this could bd bought off them if they don't get on with

that? Absolutely right. And the zone also includes the Swanscombd

peninsula, where Paramount have got big plans and proposals which we

would all like to see happen. Again, there has got to be some tilelines

set, get the investment package together. But the planning consent

and develop and corporations have speedier planning powers. Gdt on

with the delivery, because that is what development corporations are

there for. The London Dockl`nds Development Corporation was highly

successful in lifting the Docklands and building at Canary Wharf. OK,

let's bring Chris in on this. Does this sound undemocratic? Or do you

think it is a good idea? I think, the thing is, you heard the

Chancellor talking about re`announcing something has happened

two years ago. It was announced that there would be 22,000 homes, so it's

lost 7,000 homes in just a couple of years. And we do need to look at the

big picture in general, bec`use the south`east, and if you take Crawley

in particular, is landlocked. Every other district and authoritx is

placing their development rhght on the edge of Crawley, so we've got to

use their site. We need to be able to use the land that is there. But

the delay here predates this coalition government. You hdard the

quote there from George Osborne that under Labour, it's been mord ebb

than fleet. A great choice of words! It's true. This has been mooted

since well into the last Labour government. From what I unddrstand,

there have been a lot of issues over the years. I think Paul listed a

whole load of people that gdt involved with these decisions. And

that has been the issue, thd time delay. But again, announcing it two

years ago and losing all of those homes, it is quite an interdsting

take from the Chancellor. C`n I say that local government has not

dragged its feet in any way. Not Dartford Council, not Gravesham not

Kent County Council. We havd done everything to help support `nd

facilitate and flex to enable Land Securities to build the significant

numbers of homes. And we're disappointed with the current

ambition. This means local democracy doesn't work. Here you both are

representatives of local delocracy, and yet the government's decision is

to hand it over to another tnelected group. Does that worry you? Well,

let's hope in partnership whth local government, because we're hdre to

help and assist, but we awaht that detail. OK, let me bring yot back

in, Chris, because you grew up in, you work in, you represent Crawley,

a new town. I know it very well I grew up just a few miles aw`y in

Horsham. What would you say are the lessons of Crawley, the dos and

don'ts? Crawley has been designed. There are problems in Crawldy, but

for the most part, we have kept low high`rise. We've made sure that the

living conditions for peopld and the environment is somewhere th`t people

want to come and live in Cr`wley and work in Crawley. And the problem is,

like I mentioned before, because it is landlocked, there's a very, very

small space for Crawley. And also, with the issues with Gatwick

Airport, we have an awful lot of land that is held off from the

possible expansion at Gatwick. And because we have got land all around

us, Horsham have just placed a two and half thousand home development

on the edge of Crawley. Milds away from Horsham. It's turning hnto one

big city by the sounds of it, Crawley and Horsham. What wd need to

do, it's like under Labour's right to grow, because we need to be able

to use that land and the current administration, this governlent has

basically put in ideas that authorities have to work together.

But there is no actual determination to make that actually happen. Sounds

like it might be tense on the Crawley Horsham border. Let's move

on to the story I mentioned at the beginning that you both havd a

serious interest in. If your child has a long`term medical condition

you may find it hard to get the help they need at school. But a new law

that came into effect this week means that, from September, schools

will be obliged to put in place specialist support not just for

children with special education needs, but for children with medical

problems too. Like epilepsy. Sara Neville reports from West Stssex.

Sonny comes from a large falily They work together, play together,

each together. 11`year`old Sophie Beadon from Crawley has epilepsy and

mild learning difficulties. But her epilepsy is a hidden problel.

Because seizures happen at night. Often leaving her feeling exhausted

during school. Sophie is at a special school. She pulled out of

mainstream education where she found school life difficult. Sophhe could

probably have stayed in a m`instream school, if they were aware of her

illness, they were educated about her illness. Understood it. There

are 40 different kinds of epilepsy which affects over 100,000 xoung

people in the UK, or one in 200 To put that into context, it is an

average of one child in every primary school or five in every

secondary school. Currently, experts say school support for suffdrers is

a lottery. But from Septembdr, for the first time, schools will have a

legal duty to give individu`l support to children with medical

conditions like epilepsy. Working alongside other agencies in health

and welfare. And it is vulndrable children like Sophie who ard at the

heart of the changes. The Children And Families Act is a huge step for

children who suffer from ephlepsy. This is because it recognisds the

problem that they have in tdrms of learning and sometimes behavioural

problems in the classroom and introduces a requirement for schools

to have tailored support packages for them. Here in Lingfield, the

charity Young Epilepsy runs a unique facility to assess children with the

condition. Researchers have known for years that there is a lhnk

between epilepsy and poor academic progress. Now, they have proved it

conclusively with the compldtion of a pioneering three`year study

carried out in 40 West Sussdx schools. It reveals for the first

time that 95% of children whth epilepsy are failing to fulfil their

potential. Often due to learning or behavioural issues that are missed

by teachers. Ready? Steady? Go. There are no final details from

government about how schools should implement the new laws. The charity

says there are questions about schools' readiness. We know that the

current system is failing on people with epilepsy. Even people who have

got epilepsy that seems well`managed, they are still

failing. A lot of owners will go on to the schools. Schools would be

required to provide support plans for young people, and what Xoung

Epilepsy is saying, we can help you. We've developed a tool that will

help schools, teachers, to be able to assess the needs of young people

with epilepsy. The government says nationwide there is a raft of

support available to help authorities prepare for the reforms.

Including a ?70 million grant for changes in special educational

needs. And ?30 million to rdcruit and train almost 2,000 so`c`lled

champions who will guide parents through the new system. But

mainstream teachers say thex will need ongoing support and

collaboration to make the rdforms work. Rather than simply sax, it's

another expectation on schools, there must be some support. Schools

will need help. They'll need to work together and they will need some

sort of structure, I think, provided for this. And could there also be

unintended consequences for the young people who are meant to

benefit? The pressure over time will be that mainstream schools `re more

reluctant to take on some youngsters who have complex needs, which are

going to impair their acadelic progress, and we are possibly likely

to see an increase in referrals to special schools who are alrdady

under enormous pressure to leet an increasing demand of complex needs

youngsters. Sophie's experidnce is not uncommon and it is hoped that

this new act will transform the way children with additional nedds are

supported at school. But thdre is still a lot to do. And the puestion

remains, will schools be re`dy or able to take on this extra

responsibility? Chris, for the first time, children

like Sophie with epilepsy and other medical conditions also will have

the right to expect their school to teach them, but also look after them

accordingly. That has got to be a good thing? Absolutely. One of the

flaws in the system has been this sort of multi`agency approach where

the communication hasn't bedn great. But with the new scheme, wh`t we're

aiming at is that the parents sit down with a different multi`agency

from the start. And actuallx work out in detail what is best for their

child. So there is more involvement from the parents and the chhld.

Absolutely. West Sussex County Council along with Paul's atthority

Kent County Council, have bden piloting some of the ideas here

what has been learned so far, do you think? So far, it's giving what

parents want. It's making stre that we listen to what the parents needs

are, and what their child ndeds to go to a special school for

mainstream education. It's whatever is best for that family and for that

child as well. But addition`lly Paul Carter, the thing that parents,

I have heard this every timd I speak to somebody with a child with

special education needs, thdy talk about battles and fights. Is the

fight and the battle going to go away with this new legislathon or

will it still be there to gdt what you want, what you believe xour

child needs? Well, I quite understand that parents alw`ys want

to do the very best for thehr child. And going through the statelent

process is never easy. Therd's gatekeeping and thresholds to be

set, to make the best use of public money and to provide the very best

educational support. And th`t can be bureaucratic and a big fog for a

number of parents. This adds another layer to that, because it is not

just a statement of educational need, it is a statement of

educational and health need. And my concern is that the primary health

providers, GPs and others, haven't yet woken up to the responshbility

that is coming their way from September this year. But it is also

coming to school, and I guess this is the question, Paul, this is a big

ask for schools and for loc`l authorities. But is there enough

money there to do what the legislation requires? There's some

additional money to go throtgh the new process. It's ?70 million. And

that is only to go through the process, that is not year`on`year.

There are 34,000 schools in Britain. I know it will not be handed out

evenly, but just assuming it was, that is ?4,000 per school, that is

not a lot of money. But in ly view, it is not just the education

providers that have to provhde the extra support. There's a massive

demand and need for speech `nd language therapists in schools that

should be provided by the hdalth side of the partnership working

This statement of health nedd will make the providers of the hdalth

provision deliver that into the schools alongside the education

provision. I think there is a big communication issue to make sure

that the health providers rdalise the responsibilities that are now

coming their way. But children spend most of their time in schools and

the schools are only being charged, Chris Oxlade, with using, and this

is the quote, using their bdst endeavours to provide what ` child

needs. That's a bit vague. Ht is. But the thing is, it needs to go

back to the start again, because we need to find out exactly wh`t those

children and what those famhlies need. There's no point putthng them

into the mainstream education or even to a special school if that is

not what is best for them. So, the old system was talking to dhfferent

agencies at different times and the whole process this time will be

actually sitting down right at the start and making sure we iddntify

what those needs are. And P`ul is right. With the health servhce, it

is making sure that with thd break`up of the health servhces that

you look at in West Sussex, although it is closer working in somd areas,

it is making sure the implementation, which I'm ddeply

concerned about... Although the parents come back very proactively

and in support of this procdss, what will happen from September when it

actually comes in? The government haven't said exactly what is going

to happen and that is the bhg concern. Thank you both verx much.

And now for a round`up of the other political events that you mhght have

missed this week with James Fitzgerald.

The future of loss`making M`nston Airport is up in the air. It's begun

a consultation over the possible closure. The government said the

move was disturbing. Locals were concerned about job losses. The

whole of Ramsgate and Margate is just going downhill, isn't ht?

Eastbourne Lib Dem Stephen Lloyd has taken up the cause of the f`mily of

Lance Corporal Michael Prichard whose death in friendly fird in

Afghanistan may have resultdd from poor equipment. There's the apology

which I will be pressing and also, I want assurances that there has been

a real learning here. Canterbury MP Julian Brazier believes that he s

found legislation within thd Local Government Act that would allow

councils ban the sale of legal highs. Home Office Minister Norman

Baker, also the MP for Lewis, said he would consider it. Laura Sands,

the MP for South Thanet has launched EU plus, a campaign for continued

relationship with the Europdan Union plus global trading opportunities.

We need to reform, but we nded to know that our future is within

Europe and making and shaping Europe.

OK, we have got the Ebbsfledt announcement, could Manston Airport

be another site for a major housing development? Well, let's go through

the 45 day consultation with staff. I think there is still a little hope

there. Do you want it to st`y as an airport? Of course. I have worked

enormously hard. I have alw`ys said it is one of the biggest potential

drivers of increasing significantly employment in East Kent. And East

Kent needs more employment opportunities. So, enormously sad.

We need to work with the new owners, work with the government and see

whether there is the possibhlity of any sort of rescue plan. Chris, you

have got Gatwick in your prospective constituency, for everyone hn the

south`east, who is west of @shford, that is their local airport, they do

not need Manston, do they? Gatwick has gone from strength to strength

and obviously there is the prospective second runway issue

coming later in 2015. We nedd to diversify a little bit with travel,

and particularly with air travel in the south`east. It's very s`d for

Manston and the staff and the people that work there. Thank you very much

indeed, nice to meet you, Chris with his very first Sunday Politics

in the south`east and Paul, thank you too. That is all we havd got

time for this week. My thanks to our guests, Paul Carter and Chrhs

Oxlade. Natalie will be herd next week with more politics frol the

South East. decision, she will weigh up the

The big news is the popular server is struggling to control all of the

people who want to find out where they fit in the political spectrum.

It hasn't quite crashed but it is queueing up those people. Who would

have thought the Sunday Politics had so many viewers? It has never

happened on the X factor. This morning's papers don't make

comfortable reading for Labour with two separate polls showing the

party's lead over the Tories is down to just one point. And there's been

plenty of criticism of Ed Miliband's response to the Budget. Let's take a

look. You know you are in trouble when even the Education Secretary

calls you and out of touch bunch of elitist. Where is he? He is hiding!

I think he has been consigned to the naughty step by the Prime Minister.

The naughty step! And we're joined now by shadow chief secretary to the

Treasury, Chris Leslie. There was a widely criticised response by Ed

Balls to the Autumn Statement, now a widely criticised response by Ed

Miliband to the Budget. Does this show you are struggling at the

moment? Of course Ed Balls and Ed Miliband don't want to hear the fact

that in reality, for most people, life is getting harder and there is

the cost of living crisis. Did we get any mention of that in the

Budget? Of course we didn't. We were waiting for action on the cost of

living and it wasn't forthcoming. Ed Miliband came up with the tactic of

responding to the Budget without mentioning anything that was in it.

He mentioned the fact the personal tax allowance was a bit of a

giveaway but he takes more with the other hand. He is in favour of that,

right? Anything we can get but we need a lot more. Let me tell you

something else he mentioned, the fact the national debt has risen by

a third and George Osborne and David Cameron... They knew that before the

Budget. The borrowing figures were announced and Ed Miliband made

reference to those. There is not a lot of happiness on Labour

backbenchers about this, is there? And indeed not a lot of happiness in

the shadow cabinet. There is concern that Ed Miliband is on a journey to

remodel world capitalism whilst George Osborne is firing some love

bombs at Middle England by talking about freeing up the pensions market

and there is real nerves that what Ed Miliband is saying is not going

to be in tune with those middle income earners that the Labour Party

has got to attract if they are going to win the general election. When

Rachel Reeves used the medium of Radio 4 to announce you were broadly

in favour of the pension reforms announced by the Chancellor on

Friday night, was that a result of a decision taken by the shadow

cabinet? Is With annuities, they are a very old-fashioned product. There

are some serious questions which need to be addressed. Was that the

result of a Shadow Cabinet decision? We have not had a Shadow

Cabinet since the budget. We all want to make sure that we understand

the point about flexibility. No one is arguing with that. There are some

serious concerns. Let me give you a couple of examples. This is

something the Chancellor has done, he claims, for reasons of freedom

and flexibility. Is it a coincidence he is grabbing quite a lot of tax

from pensioners early on to plug a hole which is necessary because the

deficit has not gone down? Forgive me for being slightly cynical about

motives. For or against it? We need to have safeguards for protection of

pensioners. What will it do for the annuity market if most people still

want to have a steadying come for a third of their lives? -- steady

income. What does Labour have to do to get it show back on the road The

question is, how do people feel How many people will still not be

feeling better by the next election? Wages may be rising slightly but not

for a large and significant number of people. They were just looking at

the YouGov poll. If you look at the middle to low earners, they are

overwhelmingly pro-labour. Can Labour get those people out to vote?

They are really hurting. There are plenty of them. The question is

whether people are optimistic because they see figures as if they

look as if they are on the up or whether they vote according to how

they feel, which will still be very far behind. Cost of living has been

a major mantra from Labour. That's that this chart shows how things are

beginning to change. What this shows is that, sometime this year, after a

long time at which average earnings trailed inflation, they now overtake

it in the run-up to the election and they stay there for the forecast

period. What do you now do if your cost of living mantra is running out

of steam? I am not sure that, for most people, they will recognise the

sense that suddenly things will be getting better. Particularly the

younger generation are really feeling quite down about the

pressures they are facing to make ends meet. You can see the lines are

exaggerated because the Y axis on the side starts quite high up. It

does not start at zero. The other statistic from the OBR is that we

will not be getting back to the point where wages are exceeding

prices from the pre-banking crisis period until late 2017. There are

some really serious pressures that people are under. What they wanted

was a budget that would address concerns and, for the vast majority

of people, they will have heard the statement by George Osborne and

think, how is it really help them now? It did not address it. It is

clear that by 2015, average living standards will probably not have

returned to where they were in 2010. Average wages will not have

done that. On the other hand, the chart shows the sense of direction

is moving in the right way. Which one matters more with the

electorate? I suspect it is sense of direction. People sense of

prosperity does not need to be buoyant. It has to be something

worth preserving. We have to fear the all turn. That is what intrigued

me this week. People make too much of a fuss about the Parliamentary

response by Ed Miliband. People will forgive a bad day at the dispatch

box. What they will not forgive is the absence of a macro economic

mess. Labour have a very powerful message on living standards and lots

of popular, targeted interventions like the energy price freeze. You

can imagine they will be sufficiently nervous about that next

year. If living standards are not back to where they were, Labour can

say, are you better off now than when you were four years ago? The

reason why break and -- wallowed waken one that is because Jimmy

Carter mucked it up -- Ronald Reagan. Labour have to say, vote for

us and you will get 2 million homes. At the moment, the offer is very

modest. You need to find the money to do that. People need to

understand that housing is at the very heart of the economy, as well

as young people and their aspirations. At the moment, Labour

's offer is not spectacular in. If the focus group shows the cost of

living crisis have no longer has the attraction it did, what line do you

move onto? Yellow McCoy must remind people of the wasted years and the

cost of living pressures they have been under. -- we must remind

people. We want a recovery which has low growth, low wage. A race to the

bottom. They want a recovery that is felt by everyone, shared and felt by

all. Now, here's an idea to twist your melon. Mark Berry, better known

as Bez, it says here he's a member of something called The Happy

Mondays, wants to stand for parliament. He's best known for

being in a band, and not doing very much, so he might fit in. Here he is

in action. And Bez joins us from our Salford

studio. Good to see you. Is this a genuine candidacy or are you

twisting my melon? Amazing how time flies when you're having fun! You

having fun doing this candidacy I am doing the job of the politicians

and standing up for the people and bringing attention to the horror of

fracking, which is a totally unsafe technology. There is no one in

mainstream politics who is discussing or saying anything about

it. It is an unsafe technology and it has been proven in America. You

see the process in America and the people out on the streets. The whole

atmosphere has been made toxic. These people are allowing it to

happen in the name of profit. This has been a Labour seat you are

fighting in Salford since 1945. It is a tough mountain. Supposing you

were to win, could you ever see yourself entering a coalition? With

a bit of luck I may be able to shame Labour politicians to do the job

properly and stand up for the rights of people. They are not and I am

having to do that job. All I am doing is causing debate and bringing

to attention the horror that is hanging on our doorsteps. It is not

only fracking but GM modified foods that they want to bring into this

country as well. Owen Paterson is one of the main lobbyists. Lobbying

is legalised bribery, by the way. It is run by the bankers. Basically, we

have to stop these monsters from getting into our country and turning

our land into a toxic waste. That is what I am trying to say. You are

raising the debate, as you are doing with us here. We do not really need

fracking. You have done that and you have talked about other things as

well. In terms of a new integrity, if you were to become an MP, would

you claim expenses? If I ever do get in charge, I would completely enter

the banking system and there would be expensive, but they would be like

bus passes and train passes. You behave like the people and you are

in touch with the people, you move with the people and do understand

what the people want. You do not live in acre Kuhn of your own making

of luxury, wealth and total disregard of everyone else. -- a

cocoon. If you did get into the Palace of Westminster and had to

mingle with all these people, who would you rather have in night out

with - Mr Cameron, Mr Miller band or Mr Clegg? I would be willing to

discuss politics with anybody. I would make them realise what they

are doing. I am glad too have a debate and with anyone. The people

of Salford, quite a lot people people behind me. I have been

speaking to Salford councillors They are going to lend me their

support. The people of Salford, and not to forget the people of Eccles,

sending you much. We must stop this horror. There is a monster on our

doorstep and we must stop it, people. Do not forget to take your

maracas on campaign trail. Would you like a pair to shake yourself? You

shake your maracas against fracking! Thanks, Bez, goodbye. Thank you for

giving me a little platform to express my views. Now if there's one

thing that gets us hot under the collar here at the Sunday Politics

it's European elections. The only thing we like more than the

elections themselves is a TV debate about them. And we're in luck! Take

a look at this. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome leader of

the Liberal Democrats and Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg. Gives

the most fantastic welcome to Nigel Farage. I would challenge Nigel

Farage to a public, open debate about whether she we should be out

all in of the European Union. I will do it for Nick Clegg. Since 200 , I

have taken part in 45% of votes in the European Parliament. Nigel

Farage has not tabled a single amendment since July 2009. Mr Clegg

has only taken part in 22% of votes in the House of commons. You can

watch the debate at 7pm on the nd of April over on BBC Two. And for a

chance to be part of the studio audience on the night and put your

question to the two party leaders, e-mail the question you'd like to

ask to [email protected] or tweet it using the hashtag

#europedebate. And Nick Clegg and Nigel Farage will be limbering up

this week with their first debate on LBC radio on Wednesday. Who is going

to come out the best? I suspect Nigel Farage. It is easy to portray

Nick Clegg as morally compromised, who has not asserted himself in

government. I do wonder about Nigel Farage, whether he is much better at

delivering a popular line and responding to the second question of

third question. Nick Clegg will win it hands over fist because he knows

this stuff. He is right. The evidence that he can produce about

what will happen if we pulled out of Europe will, I think, overwhelm

Nigel Farage 's one-liners. They will both be winners because you

will have the rare sight of the pro-European saying he likes the

European Union. That is unlike Eurosceptics who tie themselves up

in knots. 14 Nigel, one for Nick and one for both. There you go. Here is

a mess, it is Janen Ganesh. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is

on BBC Two at Lunchtime every day this week, I'll be back here next

week with Energy Secretary Ed Davey. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the

Sunday Politics.