04/05/2014 Sunday Politics South East

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being

re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police

custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders

of the Troubles. That's our top story.

He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious

electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative

Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is.

And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best

In the South East, it is 18 days likely to be a good

In the South East, it is 18 days until we fought in the European

elections. We will ask, will the questions of identity, immigration

and independence. We have a table full of Euro candidates here to

debate what it means for London. And with me, as always, the best and

the brightest political panel in the business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis

and Janan Ganesh. They'll be throwing metaphorical rotten eggs

into the twittersphere. First this morning - Gerry Adams,

President of Sinn Fein, has spent a fourth night in police custody after

he was arrested in connection with the killing of Jean McConville more

than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has claimed that the arrest is

politically motivated coming, as it does, during local and European

election campaigns. Northern Ireland's deputy first minister,

Martin McGuinness, has indicated he might review the party's support for

policing in the province if Gerry Adams is charged. The Jean

McConville murder was one of the most notorious cases of the

Troubles. The widowed mother of ten was

kidnapped from her home in December 1972, never to be seen alive again.

The IRA denied involvement but in 1999 admitted it had murdered her

and several others, known as the Disappeared. Before his death, the

former IRA commander Brendan Hughes pointed the finger at Gerry Adams,

claiming: In April this year, either Bell was

charged with aiding and abetting the murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams

has always insisted he is innocent of any part in the abduction and

killing all burial of Mrs McConville.

We were hoping to speak to the Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa

Villiers, but having agreed to do an interview with us this morning, she

pulled out. But we are joined from Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey.

Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And the police just doing their job by

questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams said publicly some time ago that he

was available to speak to the police, but that is not what this is

about at the moment, because what we have here is clearly evidence in our

mind of political interference in what should be due process. Gerry

Adams made it clear some time ago he wanted to speak to the police, it

was available at any time, and yet that request was not taken up until

three weeks into an election and we believe that was deliberately

orchestrated by a small number of people. What evidence can you

present this morning that proves that claim? The direct circumstances

Gerry Adams finds himself in at the moment, take that in stark contrast

when they have dealt with members of the British Army for instance...

That is just circumstantial. The PSNI know that the soldiers involved

in that and a number of other high-profile killings of citizens

here, and not one of those people has been arrested. In fact any of

the people who were interviewed were interviewed by request. There was a

stark contrast, in terms of how they have dealt with the British military

involving state killings. We haven't got too much time. Sinn Fein said it

would review its support for the PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That

sounds like political interference in the police process. It's not

because we have a clear mandate from the people who elect us. Policing

has been an important part of the peace process here for many years,

Sinn Fein plays an important role in local policing partnerships. We

negotiate to make sure we have powers transferred here to elected

representatives in the north. It is a long way to go before we have

policing highly accountable, and making sure they deliver a very

impartial service. How will he react if Gerry Adams is charged? I am

still trying to get a clear answer. If Gerry Adams is charged, will you

withdraw support for the Northern Ireland police service? We view this

as a serious situation and a serious ongoing situation and we will

monitor how this pans out. We have a very important role to play to

support the police service here. We have done consistently, worked with

them on a daily basis, but we will not accept political interference by

a small number of people in the police who are undermining the

police. We will not accept political policing. If there was evidence, and

I emphasise the word if, because we have seen none, but if there were

evidence to justify Gerry Adams being charged, why should he not be

charged? It is my understanding from the family of Gerry Adams that there

has not been a single shred of evidence put forward. I understand

that, but if there was evidence, why should he not be charged? You put

that caveat yourself and then you expect me to speculate, there is no

way I will do that. The fact of the matter is there hasn't been one

single shred of evidence put to Gerry Adams in the last few days, in

fact what has been put to him is a range of issues of newspaper

cuttings, books, statements made from people, including from people

who didn't want their statements released until they have died.

who didn't want their statements was charged, again I emphasise the

word if, does the police process fall apart? The police process is a

fragile entity, it requires work and we have been saying this publicly

and privately with the Irish and British

and privately with the Irish and process has to be nurtured and

developed. We are not out of the woods yet. From a Republican point

of view we have been working flat out. I just wanted a quick answer to

my question, is a yes or no? What question I asking me? Is the peace

process in jeopardy? It is fragile and I am not going to have words put

into my mouth but I don't want to use. It has to be worked out and

nurtured. Thank you for joining us. Nick Watt, you were a Northern

Ireland correspondent like myself in days gone by. Where is this going to

go? It shows how challenging the peace process is because on the one

hand you have the unspeakable pain of the McConville family, but you

also have the danger of not having mechanisms to deal with the past.

South Africa is a good example, you have to have some mechanism to deal

with the past because if you don't, you are going to have, as Sinn Fein

have now, someone in a police cell but you don't have the arrests of

the Bloody Sunday soldiers. Paramilitary prisoners were released

after two years... We have seen no action against somebody accused of

the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a one-way street. We have the

decommissioning of IRA weapons by the IRA, therefore destroying

crucial evidence. You have these inconsistencies because you don't

have an mechanism for dealing with the past, but doing that is really

difficult because of the pain of real people. Don't you get a feeling

that here in London they are hoping he will not be charged? Definitely

because it would be nice if everything went away, but the civil

case of the family is taken out of the hands of the police. You can see

here a real failure in Westminster to see this as anything other than

settled. David Cameron we know sees himself as a chairman. I was

speaking to a friend in Northern Ireland who said he has never met

Gerry Adams and I think this is very revealing. They consider this as a

settled issue that will not trouble Westminster again. It would be, but

the relatives of the disappeared don't want it to be settled. This

points to the reality that the Belfast agreement probably had to be

done, but the moral price at which it was purchased was far greater

than we were willing to admit during the euphoria. For a country that

prides itself by the rule of law to tolerate the early release of

prisoners and former pal and military -- paramilitaries, I think

was a very serious matter. As for the PSNI, it only exists because its

predecessor failed to command the confidence of the nationalist

community. It is a very big deal if even the PSNI ends up falling into

the same trap. We have to is leave it there I'm afraid. It was the

Conservative's local election campaign launch on Friday, and what

did David Cameron focus on? Burning local issues like the state of our

roads, rubbish collection or care of the elderly? No. It was Europe. The

Prime Minister re-iterated again his promise of an in-out referendum on

our membership of the EU in 2017. And it's being reported this morning

that he will share a platform with Nigel Farage in a pre-general

election debate. Here's what the UKIP leader had to say about the

issue when he was on the Marr Show this morning with Ed Miliband. David

Cameron very often makes these vague promises, then doesn't deliver

afterwards. I don't think he has any intention of allowing me into any of

these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband wants to debate? We have got to have

the TV debates as we did join the last general election. I think David

Cameron is doing everything he can to wriggle out of them. It is up to

the broadcasters but whether they invite Nigel. My main desire is that

the debates go ahead. We are joined now by Grant Shapps. Will he be

included? The debates were not without problems, they took place

during the campaign period and disrupted the flow of the campaign,

taking it out of the regions, people getting to speak to the leaders so a

longer period for that would be helpful. I think they are good idea

and they should go ahead, but all of the negotiation about who is

involved is yet to happen. So it is not a done deal that Nigel Farage

will be included? That needs to be negotiated with the TV companies.

The Conservatives believe we should have debates, but exactly the format

and the timing, all of the -- that will be debated in the autumn, but

first we have European elections, the Queen 's speech and a Scottish

referendum. The local election campaign was launched on Friday. Why

did you talk more about Europe than local councils? Both are important.

The local elections are critically important for people, their local

services. It is easy to forget, for example, that the council tax has

been largely frozen since this Government came to power, a big

contrast to Dublin under the previous Labour government. So why

did you go on and on about Europe? Let me show you the poster used to

launch your local election campaign. There it is, and in-out referendum

on Europe, the day of the local elections, where is the word local?

Is it in small print? I hear what you're saying, I am happy to be here

to talk about the local elections. But you are right, they are on the

same day, and not many people know that only by voting conservative can

you get an in-out referendum. -- Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver,

we can, it is the same date, so people... This was the launch of the

local election campaign. Why does the Prime Minister have to keep on

promising something he has already promised? The actual referendum

would be in 2017. He promised it before, he keeps repeating it

because he knows people don't really trust him. I think it is a question

of the fact that, actually, unless you remind people that the pledges

there, that the only way to get an in-out referendum is to vote for

it, this is a critical moment at which we need people to vote for

that referendum if they want it. It is not the case, as I saw this

morning, being said by Nigel Farage, that a referendum was promised

before and not delivered. There was no referendum in the last manifesto.

There will be in the next one. There was a cast-iron guarantee, in the

Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In

the Sun article, he said, we will have a referendum on the Lisbon

Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty had been passed before the general

election, it is difficult to have a referendum on something in the past.

We joined Europe in the 1970s, having a referendum on that! Look,

that is about the future. Our relationship with Europe is

absolutely critical. Most people in this country feel, I was not old

enough to vote in that referendum, most of those who voted, they voted

for a Common Market, that is not what we have got. We want to

continue the work we have been doing in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do?

They voted against it. We want more of those powers brought home, and we

will put it to a referendum, and people will have to vote

Conservative to get it. We have been looking at new research, almost two

thirds of Conservative members are considering voting for UKIP, almost

two thirds. I have a simple message here, which is this. If you vote for

UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are likely, 30% are possible. That is

why it is important we are making these arguments. If you vote for

UKIP, you are voting to take us further away from returning powers

to this country, further from a referendum. It is support for Ed

Miliband becoming Prime Minister, and he will do exactly what Labour

have always done - hand away powers, and away the rebate for nothing in

return, giving Europe even more so over the day-to-day affairs in

Britain. Why are so many people considering voting UKIP? It is to

hold your feet to the fire, they do not trust you on a referendum, so

they will vote UKIP to force you to tap in your line. We have a very

tough line. If I had said four years ago that this government would

manage to cut the overall EU budget, would take us out of the

bailout fund that Labour got us into, passing a law that no more

powers can go to Europe without a referendum, if I had said that,

people would say, I do not believe it will happen. Not only have we

done these things, we are promising and in-out referendum, and the only

way to get it is to vote Conservative. Nigel Farage has

said, we can't change anything in Europe, and it is no wonder that the

president of the European Commission has said, we love having these UKIP

MEPs, because they don't turn up and vote, apart from when they vote

against the cut in the budget. It goes beyond UKIP in your party,

because this research also showed that those Conservative members most

likely to vote for UKIP, they said they do not feel valued or respected

by their own leadership, and they regard David Cameron as ideological

eat more remote from them than UKIP. What I would say is look at that

list... Let me take that step further. What people need our series

solutions to serious problems. When people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will

say, which one of the 40% of the MEPs who got in for UKIP last time

are you voting for, the ones above left or defected, the ones have gone

to jail? 40% have ended up not delivering. People have a right to

know what to expect when they vote in these elections. They can look at

our record at home, and this goes to the point you have raised about what

we have done in Britain to get this economy back on track, recover from

Labour's recession. We are prepared to take those decisions in Europe as

well. Presumably, active Conservative members, they know

that, so why do they not feel valued by the leadership? I spend time

going up and down the country meeting Conservative members, and

they are on the doorstep, last weekend 150 out in Enfield

campaigning for the European and local elections... Why are they keen

on UKIP? When I meet somebody who says that, not necessarily a

member... Have you met members of say they will vote UKIP? No, but a

vote for UKIP is... Do not do it, you will end up with Labour having

more control, handing away powers to Europe. 51-year-old meeting members

who say they will vote UKIP, you must be out of touch. -- if you are

not meeting members. Some of your members are thinking of voting UKIP.

I spend huge amount of time travelling around, I just told you

about this action day in Enfield, where we had an enormous turnout.

Those members were on the doorsteps pointing out that you can only get

reform in Europe by voting Conservative. Labour and the Lib

Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, Conservatives will. You have not got

that message across, because a YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who

has the best policies? Tories 18%, Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the

economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP 4. Why don't you shut up about

Europe and talk about the economy? Look, on the 27th of May, we have

European elections, as well as local elections. If I don't talk about the

European elections, you would say what you said at the beginning about

not talking about the local elections! These are serious

elections, and the point I am tried to make is that the issues at stake

are not peripheral, they are not unimportant. Our MEPs have been

battling to cut red tape from a European level on small businesses,

the same thing this government has been doing for small businesses

domestic league, where for example every small business owner watching

this show knows they have got ?2000 back in employment announced on

national insurance contributions. We are doing it at home, we are doing

it in Europe, and it is important to tie that together. Ireland that Mr

Cameron saying, you should stop banging on about Europe... -- I

remember. This is before the last general election, as in days for the

Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't win the election, and now you are

only three or four points ahead, it doesn't look good for you, does it?

Even then, the poll did not turn out to be what it was on the day. No,

that is what happens, that is the voting intentions now! You are in a

worse position than a year before the last election, which you didn't

win. We are almost proving the point that you can take a clip at any

moment in time, not sounding like a politician, but the only poll that

matters is on the day. In just over a year's time, people will have a

completely different picture to look at than these opinion polls. We have

an economy from being a basket case, the great Labour recession

knocking 7% of this economy, hurting every family, to a point where we

the fastest-growing economy in the developed world. In a year's time, I

hope people will see that we are the people who've taken the difficult

decisions, got the economy to the right place, more security for you

and your family. Do not give the car keys back to the people who crashed

it in the first place. If I had a pound for every time I have heard

that! It is clearly not getting through. On the Pfizer attempted of

AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this morning for a tougher public

interest test such big takeovers. Do you agree with that or not? Let me

be absolutely clear, if there is any kind of joining, we are in favour of

British jobs, British aren't deep, expanding our pharmaceutical sector.

-- R But what Mr Mallon and wants to do with rent caps, he is

anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He wants to take us back to the bad old

those. -- bad old days. Should there be a bigger public interest test? We

have seen some takeovers that people have criticised, but others, like

Bentley, Land Rover, which have been very successful. Should there be a

tougher test?! We will have tests that ensured this get-together

becomes a great Anglo-American project, or it doesn't happen, but

the Miliband approach is simply to be anti-business, anti-jobs and

anti-job security. Grant Shapps, thank you.

A challenging week for the Liberal Democrats with a local election

campaign overshadowed by another row with the Conservatives about knife

crime. Adam has spent the day with Nick Clegg on the campaign trail.

How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on a political mini break to the

Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the train. He wants to highlight what

his party is doing in local government, and a personal passion

of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has

been running a campaign to have prunes recognised as a laxative. Is

that Lib Dems battling for Britain in Europe? It is not our front page

manifesto commitment! It is one of many things that Graham does, he

does many other things. In fact, he is a good example of an MEP who took

a pioneering role, for instance, in making sure... There is the proven

world, but also the crime-fighting role. -- prune. He has done work to

make sure that when British criminals flee justice, we can bring

them back. And he has promoted prunes! First stop, a gorgeous

country pub, but it turns out everyone is a journalist or a very

on message activist. Dark days, being a Lib Dem in the last few

years? Strangely not. If you find you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do

not get that disheartened, because you know that, locally, you are

doing so well for the people that you live next door to that,

actually, I find I am almost impervious to what happens on a

national level. I am mayor of Cirencester. Have you taken any

leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, inspiring new in your leadership of

Cirencester? I think what he has demonstrated his patience. It has

been a tough time, he has taken a lot of flak, and as the mayor of a

town, lots of people agree with you and a fair few don't. You are a full

on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime Minister, do you outrank him? I

don't think so, he is in government, I am not. So our there any normal

people in here? We are from Swindon, you cannot get more

abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? No! What has he done wrong? I don't

believe in his views at all. Where has he got to? Nigel Farage would

have had a pint! At this time in the morning a copy was more appropriate.

I have no time for a drink of any kind, because now we are off to look

at a local traffic blackspot. This is amazing, like a Lib Dem election

leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems pointing at a road. High-vis

jackets! Next we had to giggle full bath, but there will be no Regency

sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is taking us to an abandoned

wilderness. We have just had a health and safety briefing, we have

been told to look out for dive-bombing seagulls and an angry

fox. That is the sort of thing Nick Clegg has to put up with. He wants

to talk about the economy but he has to dodge the day's beat new story,

letters leaked by a Tory suggesting that Lib Dems are soft on knife

crime. Isn't that a new kind of warfare? I just think it is silly.

They may think they are clever by catching some headlines but they are

not helping people who catching some headlines but they are

knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the

Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses

share the same office. My time with the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing

to a close. We haven't talked about the most important story of the

week, that you were voted the best looking party leader and the most

likely to be a good cook. Right, this is news to me and I can

guarantee you that my scepticism of opinion polls has just been

confirmed. Just as well because the more serious polls don't look great

for him or his party. Goodbye, and thanks for the offer of a ride

home! He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce

joins us now. According to Lib Dem briefing documents, you are likely

to choose -- lose a big chunk of your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what

would that say about a