Browse content similar to 13/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
As the campaign heads for the final furlong, | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result? | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live. | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday. | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
Many of those tipped for promotion are women. | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
And don't know whether to support Germany or | :01:02. | :01:10. | |
And in the south east: political guide to the World Cup. | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
It is a familiar announcement, "Your train is delayed." | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
We will be asking whether p`ssengers are getting a fair deal | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the | :01:23. | :01:39. | |
Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer. | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
And for top political analysis you may | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday. | :01:55. | :02:04. | |
The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
in and who'll be out, though they don't really know. | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines, | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
is in line for a return to the political front line. | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
But there's general agreement that women will do well and some | :02:19. | :02:25. | |
of the old men in suits guard will do badly. | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme. | :02:29. | :02:38. | |
It's good to make parliament more representative. | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job. | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
accelerated too far too fast and they come to | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves. | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is | :03:08. | :03:21. | |
going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not | :03:22. | :03:29. | |
be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a | :03:35. | :03:41. | |
great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government. | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations. | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by | :05:00. | :05:10. | |
that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions | :05:11. | :05:12. | |
because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be | :05:39. | :05:50. | |
pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be | :06:55. | :07:03. | |
great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would | :07:21. | :07:27. | |
that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard. | :07:39. | :07:40. | |
That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street | :07:41. | :07:49. | |
predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part | :07:54. | :07:54. | |
of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
less male and less white. But as the list | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned | :08:02. | :08:03. | |
the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for | :08:04. | :08:19. | |
new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project. | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise | :08:25. | :08:25. | |
that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise | :08:26. | :08:36. | |
women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated | :09:00. | :09:02. | |
workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers. | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week. | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
leader of the Labour Party I discovered that I was not to be | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
appointed as Deputy Prime Minister. For women in this country, no matter | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
how able they are, the matter how hard they might work, they are still | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
not equal. There are initiatives to make the world feel more equal. In | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
the City the EU wants a quarter for women in the boardroom but that goal | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
of making 40% of the top floor female. At the BBC the boss of the | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male. In the ever | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
glamorous movie business the British film Institute announced their new | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
thematic system to get lottery funding projects improving diversity | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
on screen and off and helping social mobility. Employers like Crossrail | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
are not allowed to positively discriminate but under the quality | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
act of 2010 if two candidate for a job are just as good you are allowed | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
to base your decision on characteristics like race, sexuality | :10:35. | :10:40. | |
and gender. Some worry it has chipped away at the idea of hiring | :10:41. | :10:47. | |
on merit. A woman and three men going for a job, two of the men are | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
really good and the woman is not quite as good but she gets the job | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
anyway. That will create injustice, a feeling that she did not deserve | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
the job, resentment. It does not advance equality in society at all. | :11:03. | :11:12. | |
On this project they want to leave a concrete legacy of a more diverse | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
construction industry. The question is, what tools do you use when it | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by | :11:19. | :11:29. | |
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible | :11:32. | :11:33. | |
for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches | :11:34. | :11:46. | |
though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they | :12:17. | :12:24. | |
are good performers in the media, whether they represent different | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with. | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have | :12:51. | :12:57. | |
appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and | :13:03. | :13:04. | |
every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism. | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on | :13:50. | :13:50. | |
their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these | :13:59. | :14:08. | |
hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers. | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an | :14:42. | :14:48. | |
organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not | :14:49. | :15:10. | |
go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved | :15:11. | :15:19. | |
miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes, | :15:42. | :15:49. | |
absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want | :15:50. | :15:58. | |
to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each. | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with | :16:17. | :16:26. | |
us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very | :16:42. | :16:49. | |
quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing. | :17:21. | :17:21. | |
argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
Harriet Harman is still complaining women are not being treated fairly. | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
I think the policy reinforces the prejudice that women are not getting | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
there because they are treated on the same basis. Although you may not | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
want to have the all-female short list forever, wasn't it the kind of | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
shock to the system that made a visible change in female | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
representation, which the Tory side hasn't got? Of course it will work | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
short-term but longer term it has a very degrading effect on the | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
principle of equality and the fact Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't | :18:44. | :18:45. | |
treated equally, whether it is Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't | :18:46. | :18:56. | |
there. A number of women find this position must be reserved for a | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
woman lying patronising, and speaking of patronising women, you | :19:01. | :19:09. | |
spoken your Independent column, she presses all of the buttons for white | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
people... Was that patronising and offensive? Probably. I wrote it | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
because I felt that at the time but the point is that I was a token when | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
I was appointed. The paper brought me in because I was a woman and I | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
was a muslin or whatever. You are not writing about yourself. I was | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
writing... It doesn't mean you don't criticise other women. We absolutely | :19:37. | :19:52. | |
have to be tough, Manira is tough and so am I. Do you want to take | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
back what you wrote? No. Do you really think positive discrimination | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
has gone too far? I think there is already a suspicion out there that | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
in certain sectors women are being promoted for the wrong reasons or | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
ethnic minorities are being promoted for the wrong reasons. That is a | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
shame and my worry is that by tying funding to your ethnicity or your | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
gender, by saying you will get a promotion if you check that box but | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for | :20:30. | :20:40. | |
inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest | :20:47. | :20:54. | |
constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
been the impact on the campaign to date? | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child | :21:21. | :21:26. | |
care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions | :22:02. | :22:15. | |
claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the | :22:39. | :22:45. | |
EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of | :22:51. | :22:57. | |
these things should be the case because they are in the best | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
want powers over our social security system so that we can create a | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote, | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The | :24:18. | :24:25. | |
Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story? | :24:36. | :24:44. | |
Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very | :24:59. | :25:06. | |
good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not | :25:07. | :25:17. | |
a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the | :26:24. | :26:32. | |
common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven t | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said | :26:36. | :26:45. | |
that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but | :26:54. | :27:02. | |
been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
repeatedly to the UK Government let's go jointly and ask for a | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our | :27:58. | :28:09. | |
proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
sense and people in Scotland will make | :28:44. | :28:43. | |
sense and people in Scotland will their own judgement on who is | :28:44. | :28:49. | |
talking the common-sense. What about NATO, two years ago you told | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
Newsnight the SNP's position is that we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
democratic debate, we looked at whether it would be in the interests | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
of an independent Scotland, which forms a significant part of the | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
territory of the North Atlantic and the party changed its mind. It did | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
so in a thoroughly democratic way. That is the nature of democracy | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is | :29:27. | :29:37. | |
no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in | :29:38. | :29:45. | |
Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland... | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of | :29:59. | :30:09. | |
NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the | :30:10. | :30:16. | |
basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
and we would argue within the international community that the | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons. | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear. | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the | :32:02. | :32:09. | |
outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
the savings account would not themselves what the wisdom of that | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
is. This is based on recommendations of our expert fiscal Commission that | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
as borrowing reduces to sustainable levels it makes sense to start | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
saving a proportion of our oil wealth. In Norway, which has many | :32:53. | :32:59. | |
similarities to Scotland, they have an oil fund worth ?500 billion. | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
Scotland is part of the Westminster system is sitting on a share of UK | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
debt. We can continue to allow our oil wealth, our vast oil wealth to | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your | :33:27. | :33:29. | |
predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues would be the .7 | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
billion more than they actually work -- 3.7 billion. The cost of the | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
Scottish school system gone. There were particular reasons for that in | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
terms of interruption to production and bigger levels of investment | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
Used ill have to find the money Let me explain. They are based on robust | :33:53. | :33:59. | |
assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been | :34:07. | :34:14. | |
wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with | :34:21. | :34:26. | |
industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy, | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
raising the overall tax revenue Over the last 33 years we have | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the | :35:38. | :35:45. | |
rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
have been high and in others they would have been law but we take | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the | :35:58. | :36:05. | |
cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what | :36:29. | :36:37. | |
Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying. | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has We | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce. | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland. | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent. | :37:20. | :37:31. | |
This is the Sunday Politics in the South East. | :37:32. | :37:47. | |
Imagine a child who cannot live at home with their own parents. | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
For their own safety, they have to be cared for bx | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
We will explore the consequdnces for the 1200 youngsters | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
With me in the studio is Caroline Lucas, | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
Green party MP for Brighton Pavilion, | :38:04. | :38:05. | |
and Rehman Chishti, the Conservative MP for Gillingham and Rainh`m. | :38:06. | :38:23. | |
Before we go on to talk abott trains I will talk about aeroplanes. | :38:24. | :38:26. | |
An environmental report into the impact of an island airport on the | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
North Kent coast concluded ht would cost up to ?2 billion to provide | :38:30. | :38:32. | |
This airport has been proposed by London Mayor Boris Johnson. | :38:33. | :38:35. | |
Caroline, this is an interesting one. | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
Environmental considerations being taken very seriously. | :38:38. | :38:38. | |
Do you find that politically significant? | :38:39. | :38:40. | |
It is interesting that they are taking it seriously. | :38:41. | :38:42. | |
The report as well said that it would cost ?2 billion | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
We should not just assume that habitats can be swapped | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
There are issues as to whether you can find them. | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
They talked about Sussex and Essex as possibilities, | :38:54. | :38:54. | |
You have to read this in a cursory fashion to get | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
a sense that there are very real risks to our environment from this | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
It is talking about risks in terms of it failing as a project. | :39:02. | :39:07. | |
The bottom line is, from a climate change perspdctive, | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
is that we cannot keep thinking we can build our way out through more | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
and more airport expansion, that we keep on going for ever. | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
From a climate change perspdctive, we cannot. | :39:19. | :39:19. | |
Some are already getting thd hang of this. | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
are already doing more video conferencing instead. | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
There were four studies abott this this week. | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
One concluded that the airport could create nearly 100,000 jobs. | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
That is a higher figure than I have ever heard about this. | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
Also that Kent businesses are in favour. | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
There are parts of the country that would bhte | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
your hand off for this investmnent, why not Kent? | :39:51. | :39:52. | |
In terms of the cost to build this airport, | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
In terms of the local structure we do not have | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
the local infrastructure to have it there | :40:04. | :40:05. | |
and also if you're going to have this airport in the estuary, | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
Therefore you have to put all those people in Kent and Medway | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
There is not that infrastructure there. | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
To say all of these Kent businesses are for it, I think it is nonsense. | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
There are some individuals but the local authorities, membdrs of | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
Parliament and local residents do not support it and the environmental | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
We will leave it there because we will be back to | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
the airport in September because that is when the final shortlist | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
If you regularly travel by rail chances are you will be | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
familiar with the announcemdnt saying that your train is ddlayed. | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
Just this week, Network Rail was fined more than ?50 million | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
Our reporter has been looking at where the money goes | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
and asking whether the travdlling public is getting a fair de`l. | :40:52. | :41:07. | |
These are some of the busiest railways in the country. | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
Vital commuter routes from Kent and Sussex feeding into the caphtal | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
More of us than ever before are taking the train. | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
But delays are still a familiar story. | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
Just last week, Network Rail was fined ?53 lillion, | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
partly for lack of punctualhty in London and the south east. | :41:28. | :41:31. | |
If services are delayed or cancelled then passengers | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
But a recent report by rail regulators found th`t | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
three quarters of people ushng the trains are not aware of that. | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
But it is not just passengers that get compensation for disruption | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
Behind`the`scenes, the train companies get mondy back | :41:53. | :41:54. | |
also, in a separate, automatic payment from Network Rail. | :41:55. | :42:01. | |
It works like this, if Network Rail causes servhces to | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
run late, it pays a heavy price to the operator for the inconvdnience. | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
It could be planned delays like lineworks or unplanned | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
Last year, Network Rail paid train companies | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
in Kent and Sussex ?26 millhon for causing unplanned delays. | :42:20. | :42:26. | |
Meanwhile, just ?2 million was paid out to | :42:27. | :42:29. | |
passengers for late arrivals and cancellations by Southe`stern, | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
So are they making a profit from travel | :42:34. | :42:40. | |
There is no doubt that at some point it is worthwhile for the tr`in | :42:41. | :42:47. | |
operators to suffer delays because whereas they might lose somd | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
passenger revenue, the compdnsation they get is probably more than | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
the fares they have lost from passengers who have been delayed | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
There is a perverse situation whereby the train operators can | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
profit out of a compensation scheme that is really designed to | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
But where is the incentive for late running passengers to claim | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
back their money, paid incidentally in the form of rail vouchers? | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
One railway workers' union says the two`tiered system | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
The train operators and Network Rail operate as a closed club for | :43:26. | :43:33. | |
All of the money raised for the railway should be spent | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
on the railway, making fares affordable or providing vit`l | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
infrastructure and other improvement works so that trains run on time | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
and people can get where thdy need to go at a reasonable price. | :43:48. | :43:54. | |
The rail industry denies th`t it profits from delays | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
and says the payment of proceeds from Network Rail is designdd to | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
protect passengers and taxp`yers and to incentivise good performance. | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
It stresses that the internal system is separate | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
and unrelated to the compensation arrangements for passengers which, | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
it says, have become far more generous and easier to applx for. | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
The region also has some of the highest fares in Europe. | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
A season ticket from the Kent coast to London costs ?5,000. | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
This, coupled with poor punctuality, | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
has put Southeastern Railwax's customer satisfaction | :44:31. | :44:32. | |
Customers say operators need to be more transparent. | :44:33. | :44:40. | |
There is a job to do for the train company to make p`ssengers | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
more aware of what compensation is available | :44:44. | :44:44. | |
and to make it easier to complain. | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
But the amount that passengdrs are claiming | :44:48. | :44:49. | |
Use your rights and make your voice heard. | :44:50. | :44:58. | |
The rail regulator has urged operators to be more proacthve | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
in helping passengers to cl`im compensation for poor puncttality. | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
But will that ever happen in a system | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
Joining us from London is Mhchelle from South Eastern Trains. | :45:10. | :45:16. | |
You heard in the report that typicallx only | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
whereas you get yours from Network Rail automatic`lly | :45:21. | :45:29. | |
One is overseen by the Government and involves compensation p`yments | :45:30. | :45:39. | |
that are made to train oper`tors that compensate for lack | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
of access to the track that we need | :45:46. | :45:47. | |
That is something that is ddsigned to provide value for taxpaydrs. | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
They are perfectly within their rights to make claims | :45:53. | :45:59. | |
Those claims come to us and are funded directly by ts | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
and we are being proactive in encouraging our passengers to | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
make claims through that delay repay compensation scheme. | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
You would accept that given how expensive that it is to travel | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
by train, my guests in the studio have told me ?450 | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
from one of their constituencies to London, this is hardly generous | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
We have actually paid a record levels | :46:26. | :46:28. | |
of compensation to passengers over the past five months. | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
The reason is that performance has slipped. | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
We have also gone above and beyond the delay repay schele | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
payment to make additional one off payments to passengers | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
That includes passengers who were travelling on our Hastings line | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
where we simply were not offered to offer a service for eight wdeks | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
Let's let the viewer decide about the generosity. | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
Someone who pays up to ?5,000, as we heard in a report, | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
very seriously inconveniencdd by a 55 minute delay, let's say. | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
They will get half the pricd of their compensation ticket price, | :47:08. | :47:10. | |
and it will come in the forl of couple of pieces of paper | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
The vouchers are set as an `mount that can be claimed to offsdt | :47:15. | :47:24. | |
This is a scheme that is an industrywide scheme. | :47:25. | :47:31. | |
It is set up industrywide to provide passengers with | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
You could allow people to t`ke their vouchers to the station | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
You could move to a smart thcket system where the compensation | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
Just to remind people, your delay compensation from Network R`il | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
The way that the system works at the moment is that we ard locked | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
into a scheme as to what thd Government expects us to offer. . | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
You're suggesting that the Government would not allow xou | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
We can but we do need to get previous agreement | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
from the Government to offer a more generous schemd. | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
The reason for that is the way | :48:19. | :48:20. | |
the franchising is set up is that we have to factor that in in advance | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
before we sign any agreement with Government, to protect taxp`yers. | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
Caroline, you are arguing for the re`nationalisation | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
Is there any evidence that would= solve this issue? | :48:39. | :48:40. | |
We have just heard about the problems caused by the lassive | :48:41. | :48:47. | |
fragmentation of our railwax system and the idea that that is providing | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
good value for the taxpayer is ludicrous. | :48:51. | :48:52. | |
?290 million of rail money hs spent simply on the administration | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
The guide to it is 90 pages long as it is so complex. | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
Essentially, when we've got so many different parts | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
of the railway with different interests, the only ones who are | :49:09. | :49:10. | |
You travel a lot by train, you must have been delayed | :49:11. | :49:23. | |
I do travel a lot and I havd claimed once or twice but that has tsually | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
been when there has been soleone at the train station handing ott forms. | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
By the time you have made up the lost time, all of the inconvenience, | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
and have to go on your comptter and find out how to do it, | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
I have used trains for many years, I commute back `nd | :49:40. | :49:51. | |
forwards from Kent to London, but I haven't. | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
What we need to do is what other operators are doing. | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
National Express are doing `utomatic compensation after two minutes | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
Also if there is a delay it goes automatically | :50:03. | :50:10. | |
I have written to South Eastern to say they should do that. | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
I am waiting for a response but I think at the end of the day you | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
should do what is in the interests of the passenger and simply having | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
to go through a process of papers and vouchers is wrong | :50:23. | :50:24. | |
and it should be about ensuring that people, | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
are able to get a compensation claim. | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
That's a lot of money that we heard about in the report, | :50:31. | :50:33. | |
those automatic payments to the rail operators, is a strange sittation. | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
The delays are a good thing for the train companies. | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
That seems to be a perverse incentive to allow them to run late. | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
What we should do then is looking at the compensation they pax | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
so that if they have to pay the passenger more, | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
like she was saying paying above and beyond. . | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
She is saying that the Government would ask | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
Their contract comes to an dnd in 2018 | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
and they will put in another bid. | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
And my view is that if they do not put in a bid | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
that is good for the passenger, I would not support it. | :51:15. | :51:16. | |
I would say put that in so that if you cause delays | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
But the private railway system has simply failed. | :51:20. | :51:26. | |
You only need to look at the opinion polls and people s | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
experiences of railways in this country, it is hugely expensive | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
60% of the rail operators who are running our railways | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
are state operators from other European countrids. | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
Let's look at whether we will ever see nationalisation back. | :51:42. | :51:43. | |
You have got the East Coast Main Line already in public hands. | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
But will it ever make it into the Labour Party manifdsto | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
Ed Miliband is forever accused of being in the pocket of the tnions. | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
It would be political suicide for him because this is seen | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
as the greatest ambition of the rail unions. | :52:01. | :52:02. | |
I am absolutely amazed that Ed Miliband has not recognised that | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
this would be a wonderful w`y of making himself popular. | :52:06. | :52:07. | |
This is not electoral suicide but a massively popular polhcy | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
that would work in the East Coast Main Line | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
that is currently in public hands... | :52:14. | :52:15. | |
No, they do not like the threat of a good example! | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
East Coast Main Line is doing better than any other franchise, | :52:20. | :52:22. | |
Quickly, what I would like to say about nationalisation... | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
To do that you have to increase taxes... | :52:27. | :52:28. | |
You do and I think the argulent with the Green party is always | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
about more taxing, whether ht is aviation tax, | :52:35. | :52:36. | |
We have an austerity problel and we have to... | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
if you would take it back into public hands. | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
Thank you, I am going to stop you on that one | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
but thank you both for your passion on that subject. | :52:53. | :52:54. | |
Tens of thousands of childrdn in England do not live | :52:55. | :52:57. | |
Many are placed with foster families miles away from home. | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
This week we learned that Kdnt takes more of these children | :53:03. | :53:04. | |
The Government recently introduced new rules for these long`distance | :53:05. | :53:12. | |
placements but the numbers coming to Kent have not yet changed. | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
Joining us now from London hs Lily, from The Children's Society. | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
Well, in some cases, of course, certain children, it is important | :53:19. | :53:31. | |
that they are taken to a new area because it may be the safest thing. | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
But the number of children who are being forced | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
We are talking about, in Kent, half of the children are not frol Kent. | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
It is unlikely that for all of those children that is | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
What are the consequences if it is not a good thing for them? | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
All of the experts agree th`t placing a vulnerable child who might | :53:52. | :54:18. | |
been neglected, accused of traffic far away from home increases the | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
risk because it is very hard for a social worker to monitor thd safety | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
of a child 100 miles away and it is harder for them. | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
It increases the risk of them running away, | :54:28. | :54:29. | |
In a few cases it is the right thing for them but very | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
Is there a perverse incentive encouraging councils like Greenwich | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
and Lewisham to send their looked after children to Kent? | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
The fact is, when you look across the country at where care is | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
In some areas there is very little care available so yot are | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
In some areas, like Kent, you have a huge concentration | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
of the most vulnerable children being placed in one area. | :54:53. | :54:54. | |
That puts a strain on services and puts them at risk. | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
They have come up with the idea that it has | :54:58. | :55:12. | |
the senior children's officdr that signs every child off who is being | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
Do we need to see more action from the Government? | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
They have at least recognisdd that this is an issue but that two | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
or three years ago and we h`ve not seen any change in the numbdrs. | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
In Kent, you have got just `s many children coming in from othdr areas. | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
Not enough is being done and we need to look right across the cotntry | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
at the care available and m`ke sure it is the right thing for children. | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
These new regulations that the Government has brought hn, | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
as you heard, are not making any difference yet. | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
Does the Government need to go further? | :55:47. | :55:48. | |
What we have got to be clear on is that these new clarifhcations | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
came out in January this ye`r so we are only a few months in. | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
We should not look at distance by itself but the quality of care, | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
But the experts are saying that is an issue. | :56:00. | :56:10. | |
What it says is the Governmdnt have recognised it and the procedure that | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
they have put forward by seding the senior director has the samd as of | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
and also the other requiremdnts and regulation is that before a child is | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
placed out of care they havd to share information | :56:21. | :56:22. | |
If the provision is not right, they cannot do it. | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
But the Government would not even sanction a study into this 20 mile | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
It is the overall package and provision that goes with it | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
If you look at what the Govdrnment has done, it has made it quhte clear | :56:38. | :56:44. | |
overall in terms of finding support for children in care, there is an | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
additional premium for children and it is making sure that therd is a | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
person responsible for education throughout thd county | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
But I accept that care should be local but in exceptional | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
circumstances, if they have to move, taking into account the welfare of | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
the child, that it has to bd signed off by one identified indivhdual. | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
Is this an issue for the local authorities r`ther | :57:12. | :57:19. | |
We know that local authorithes' budgets are significantly ctt but | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
What could be more important than this? | :57:23. | :57:30. | |
The heart of this debate has to be what is in the best interests | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
of the children and it may be that in a few occasions it is safer | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
But at the moment the system is not working when up to | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
I think the Government should have done an impact assessment to look | :57:43. | :57:48. | |
at what would have been the impact of having a prestmption | :57:49. | :57:51. | |
Not to say all the cases but that there would need to be | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
If you did that you would move to a situation where you would | :57:59. | :58:13. | |
need to have more children closer to home and lesser risk to the threats. | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
We are seeing the most senior person in e`ch area | :58:18. | :58:19. | |
We will see the numbers drop, will we not? | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
It is early days but we have not yet. | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
You mentioned local authority budgets and that is a key issue | :58:27. | :58:28. | |
The senior children's officdr is also going to be subject to a lot | :58:29. | :58:31. | |
Unless they have got another framework that is saying thdre is | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
a presumption in favour of 20 mile radius then they're not | :58:39. | :58:41. | |
going to have the influence they need within their own authority to | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
It'll be interesting to look at this in a year when we can more hmpact. | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
Now, for a round`up of the other political events you might have | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
Medway Maritime Hospital, already in special measures, has ag`in been | :58:53. | :59:06. | |
rated inadequate, with concern over A, levels | :59:07. | :59:08. | |
The NHS Trust claims improvdment has been made, including | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
It has been called the biggest construction project | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
in the south east since the Channel Tunnel and the publhc | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
consultation for the proposdd Paramount Park is finally underway. | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
The plans include a univershty, 5000 hotel rooms and 27,000 jobs. | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
The challenge is to manage them to make sure | :59:31. | :59:32. | |
We do not want things to be done to us, but with us. | :59:33. | :59:39. | |
A councillor who referred to soldiers as armed killers on | :59:40. | :59:42. | |
Armed Forces Day has been rdjected from Brighton and of's Green Party. | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
Ben Duncan posted the tweet during a parade but later apologisdd. | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
East Grinstead residents have railed against plans to close | :59:51. | :59:52. | |
a garden centre and install a permanent travellers | :59:53. | :59:54. | |
The proposals will go to consultation. | :59:55. | :00:04. | |
It is not the sort of thing politicians | :00:05. | :00:12. | |
I think we do need the authorities to have a statutory | :00:13. | :00:26. | |
There is no Sunday Politics next week. | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have. | :00:34. | :00:46. | |
So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make | :00:52. | :01:12. | |
a difference? It will make a difference because we have | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed | :01:35. | :01:46. | |
through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for | :02:06. | :02:14. | |
this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
principled objection but most other people have a practical objection, | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is | :02:30. | :02:35. | |
on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church | :02:36. | :02:38. | |
against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is | :02:39. | :02:47. | |
stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please | :03:10. | :03:16. | |
withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights, | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to | :03:37. | :03:45. | |
decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament In | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson | :03:51. | :03:59. | |
and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great | :04:04. | :04:11. | |
quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could. | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
right or is the political establishment right? I think the | :04:41. | :04:49. | |
establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We | :04:50. | :04:55. | |
are in a unique position where all three political parties have | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
relatively recent experience of government so they now that security | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I | :05:10. | :05:15. | |
do not see the political controversy. All three political | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy | :05:41. | :05:46. | |
about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting, | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public | :06:20. | :06:20. | |
school. For many English football fans, | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
between two traditional foes Well, if you're | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament, | :06:36. | :06:50. | |
it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the | :07:12. | :07:21. | |
worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the | :07:35. | :07:43. | |
semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina? | :08:00. | :08:09. | |
We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
Should we read political significance in to the fact that the | :08:12. | :08:25. | |
only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government? | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best | :08:52. | :08:59. | |
football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2 10 | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not | :09:20. | :09:27. | |
around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the | :09:32. | :09:33. | |
World Cup with a clear of -- with They are probably going to win the | :09:34. | :09:46. | |
players of Polish origin. That sort of cultural change they have forced | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
themselves to go through... You talk about them being right wing, but in | :09:51. | :09:57. | |
fact the way that the German league is structured, and I am an expert, | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
is based on ownership. It is very different from the Premier League. | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
It is about football as a usual good. The ticket prices are lower. | :10:10. | :10:17. | |
The fans are involved in running the club. It is a model that all English | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
football clubs should emulate. Germany had a strong football team | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
under centre right governments and centre left governments and a | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
coalition. A strong football team and a strong economy. The | :10:38. | :10:45. | |
Conservative MP who is the arch Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
the European Union and was for a few weeks ago when people were making | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker he was outraged and said you should not | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
do that, so he could happily support Germany. What was interesting about | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
the authoritarian and democratic regimes, what is great is that the | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
World Cup is run by this open and democratic organisation Fifa. It is | :11:11. | :11:22. | |
similar to the EU in many regards. Two countries led by women. Maybe | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
gender is the thing. We did not win under Margaret Thatcher. There's one | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
big difference with the EU, you cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
to a European summit. Did you know that Italy won two world cups under | :11:44. | :11:56. | |
Mussolini? Can we draw any conclusions between a political | :11:57. | :11:58. | |
system and the performance of the football team? You can draw certain | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
parallels between maybe national cliches, so the Germans are | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
efficient and effective, which might reflect and the English are very | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
polite so we let everyone score first and go into the second round. | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
We put ourselves at the back of the queue. Is England going to qualify | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
for the European? We are going to win the European Championship. The | :12:26. | :12:35. | |
first country Scotland have to play is Germany. What could possibly go | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
wrong? Who is going to win? Germany. Germany. I am going to put a few bob | :12:44. | :12:54. | |
on Argentina. Are you going to be watching? Absolutely. Thank you | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
This is the last Sunday Politics for the summer. | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
But we'll be back in early autumn and our first programme will be live | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
from Scotland, the weekend before the referendum | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
The Daily Politics is back tomorrow at noon and we'll bring you | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
the last PMQs before the summer on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. | :13:21. | :13:23. | |
Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics, unless | :13:24. | :15:02. | |
You have been selected to take part in an antiques TV programme. | :15:03. | :15:08. |