19/05/2013 Sunday Politics South

the weight is recorded as fundamentally flawed. -- in the

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2156 seconds

Crime levels about their lowest level for 30 years, but can you

really believe the statistics? Violence is down by 6%, and robbery

13%. But our officers under pressure to keep crime levels low? The Police

Federation certainly thinks so and some experts believe the way we

measure crime is fundamentally flawed.

Let's meet the politicians who will be with me. Lord Jim Knight from

Dorset is Ely Borough peer, Dr Phillip Lee is the Conservative MP

for Racal. Seven men convicted of this week. The big story was the

grooming and sexually exploiting of girls in Oxford. Some as young as 11

and from troubled background. Lisa and social services came into

contact with these offenders time and time again. Why do you think

nothing was done? I think there has been a culture in the police and

social services not to believe these vulnerable young women when they

come forward. We have seen it in other parts of the country. The

victims who have given evidence in that trial should be applauded for

their bravery in doing so. Also, the police officers carried out the

operation have done good job in the end. But there has been a culture in

the police of not taking his thing seriously, and that has to change.

Phillip Lee, the police say race was not a factor in this, but these were

five men convicted from an Asian background. All the girls were

white. What do you think? I do not think it has anything to do with

Islam. Islam teaches people to treat women appropriately. The idea it is

anything to do that, think, is wrong. To say that it is a Pakistani

community problem would be too simplistic. Clearly, there are

problems, and where you have such problems in one community, I'm sure

members of the committee are reflecting on that. It would not be

appropriate that it has anything to do with race or religion. People of

Pakistani origin would be as appalled by this as anyone else.

There may be some cultures that we would all be appalled by. It seems

to be more widespread than people thought. Jim, when this was going

on, you were the schools Minister, AGP, isn't it about agencies not

having talked to each other's -- talk to each other properly? We need

to look at ourselves. Increasingly, we turn to, it's the system, it's

the social care system. We have had so many examples of a breakdown in

systems. When we going to realise that individually, as professional

people, we all have a responsibility to say when something is wrong? In

Staffordshire, there was another example. From my time in the

department, when that was going on, it inspired others to start a way of

sharing data for people and professionals who work with children

so that some of these things could be spotted earlier. Unfortunately,

it was expensive and has been cancelled. I wonder whether or not

does was a good idea. There are other people who are now in charge

and making those decisions. But the people in charge seem to have

learned lessons. Do you think it is right they are allowed to develop

the answers here in oxygen? There needs to be a transparent debate

about that. Some people are worried that people aren't taking

responsibility. I don't want to see the Chief Constable head of the

council should resign, because it is a wider problem. People should start

taking responsibility. No one is talking about the periods of the

girls. What about parental report -- parental responsibility? I think

they tried very hard. I know that the Chief Constable has apologise,

and that is to be respected, but when you look at this, you think,

what about the responsibilities of families in all of this? I am not

convinced that people wouldn't have known. Members of the family...

about the man who was driving around Oxford trying to find his doctor? --

trying to find his daughter? I think as a society, we need to start the

King at ourselves a bit and stop relying on Government. We need to

start relying on committees and families.

On a hospital ward, how many patients can one nurse look after

safely? It is a question being asked in the NHS were senior nurses say

that was regularly have one registered nurse caring for each or

more patients. They believe that is unsafe. According to Southampton

University research, is that patients to NASA visual increases,

so does more deaths. Joining us is Jane Ball, Debbie the director of

the National Nursing Research Unit. What is this research showing?

campaign is all about drawing attention to staffing levels,

particularly registered nurse staffing levels, and highlighting

that there becomes a level at which staffing can fault too low and

patients lives are at risk. We are drawing from a range of different

research. There has been research over the last ten years, but the

most recent study that Southampton University undertook looked at but

one different trusts. We surveyed nurses in those trusts and related

their staffing levels to our data we had an mortality rate. What we found

was that you get to a certain point where patients are at greater risk

of dying in hospital. It's a tipping point, is it? Are you sure that

statistics and a simple relationship between staffing and mortality tells

the whole story? Isn't there a lot more about the quality of training?

I think both are true. There is a lot more to good quality care with

safety and compassion, rather than just the right number of nurses. But

if you don't have enough nurses, you will put lives at risk. So, it is a

continuum and there are other factors, but when you get to eight

patients or more per registered nurse, you're putting lives at risk.

To achieve that target, another target for the Health Service,

wouldn't you have to take away money from other parts of the National

Health Service? Possibly causing trouble, but Roberts Francis was

causing trouble when he was investigating what was going on in

Staffordshire. If we believe in patient matters, we have to look at

what makes a difference. We are seeing clear evidence that must

staffing levels, registered nurse staffing levels, make a difference.

We can't ignore that evidence. These are difficult times in terms of

costs, but we can't ignore that relationship. Otherwise, -- the

pasty decision-making back to nurses. What we find is that nurses

with lower levels of staff say they are things they don't do on their

shift. Nine out of ten nurses say that there were activities relation

-- relating to not seize -- relating to patients that they had not done.

That won't solve the problem, because there are all sorts of other

factors. One of the things that came out of the CQC report was that there

was a lot of variation in hospitals, but were somewhat have good staffing

levels and aren't delivering good quality of care. We need to

understand what is going on with that. They also said that delivering

a high quality of care is almost impossible if you don't have enough

nursing staff. The cos there simply isn't enough expertise available to

patients to get things done, so nurses have to effectively ration

care, will they have to choose whether or not to answer a buzzer or

carry on giving medications on time. We're putting Fisher nurses to work

out how to prioritise and Russian. -- prioritise. We need more of

everything, because that is where healthcare is going. We are raging.

-- we are getting older. If you have an ageing society, you're more

likely to have people who have dementia. If you have one person

with dementia on a ward, this can cause no end of problems to nursing

staff. It is not just about the nature of the job, it is the nature

of the cases, because we are raging. There is also a case about

buildings. If you have a traditional ward with it is. , it is much more

difficult to staff. It is multifactorial. The challenge we

have as a society is that we can spend twice as much as we do on

health care and still have problems. Given way have got the

system we have got, Abbey go to have to spend charge people for it? Some

radical reorganisation? The NHS is going through yet another radical

reorganisation at the moment. make sure that patients get the

money spent on them that we need. have 5000 fewer masses than we did

in 2010 and it is projected to fall over the next few years. The Care

Quality Commission says that one in ten hospitals does not have enough

staff. It is a timely reminder of staff levels. Clearly, just to say

it is all about staff is simplistic, and there is a finite

amount of resources. We have to look at whether we can do more ourselves

as it -- citizens to prevent ourselves getting chronic diseases

and conditions. But, in the end, I do think we need to look carefully

at staffing levels and hold David Cameron to his promise about the

National Health Service. A new target, as that which you would like

to see? I wouldn't describe it as a target. The 128 ratio isn't a

fundamental style -- target that should be breached. Nurses should

report to the trust and hospital and asked for action to be taken. That

standard can be used. Because we don't have definite guidelines,

there isn't measures to help people assess whether staffing is OK or

not. For years, we have had nurses saying they don't have enough staff,

and others saying, well, we're always hearing that. Now we have a

number that we can help to gauge if it is at an unsafe level. We would

call for patients, visitors to ask, how many staff are on today? How

many beaches -- how many registered nurses? Thank you very much

forgotten to us. The latest figures show crime is at

its lowest level for more than 30 years. In Hampshire, it is down by

15%, and in Thames Valley, nearly 11%. That is according to the

official crime survey. But how trustworthy others figures and the

way they are measured? -- how trustworthy RB figures?

I don't feel safe. I can't go out until Constable. -- go out and feel

comfortable. We live in Swanage, and the electricity and main lights have

been switched off. I have heard people saying crime is going up

because of that. I don't like it at night on my own. We wouldn't go out

in the evening on our own things like that. Nowhere near the save as

a few years ago. So, some people may think crime is on the increase.

According to figures, it is actually going down. So which is it? When you

go to a holiday parks such as the ones we find in the South coast and

the number of caravans have been broken into, years ago, when I first

started as a police officer, I would be recording ten different kinds for

that. At the moment, we record one. There needs to be a debate and

examination of exactly what is going on with crime figures, because we

think people are just not reporting it. At their annual conference in

Bournemouth last week, the Police Federation said crime figures were

being kept artificially low. The way in which police and interpreting the

rules sent from the Home Office, given that they had been under

pressure to show year-on-year falls and crying -- on crime, if crime

levels went up, there was a failure. In Dorset, I am confident in

relation to the accuracy of crime figures. We have plenty of people

who check that we are doing it accurately according to national

standards. Despite an apparent fall in violent offences of nearly 15%,

one Dorset charity working with victims of domestic violence says

the reality is different. Sometimes statistics are behind what is

happening on the ground. That is now one pos-mac fault, it is just the

recording statistics and classification of watch report. We

see an increasing need for people with housing over the few years --

Oval last few years, and over the last 12 months. We have seen a big

increase. There are two ways that crime levels are measured. One, the

number of crimes reported to the police, and another based on the

survey of households and their experience of crime. That is showing

that crime is falling, and I think we should congratulate the officers

on the streets who have been doing their part in making sure those

figures go down. But there are some who say they crime survey figures

will always be misleading. Property crime has changed in its nature

since the early 1990s. There are new forms of property crime being

perpetrated on an increasing scale. The sorts of fraud and scams that go

on over the internet. Those are not reported to the police. It doesn't

include shoplifting. Lots and lots of crime which are very prevalent

but not captured in the survey. Somehow, it has become a sacred cow,

which is not open to question. The coverage of what is really going on

with crime is extremely livid -- extremely limited and always has

been. That has become more so as forms of property crime has changed.

Here in the studio is the Hampshire Police and Crime Commissioner. Do

you trust these figures customer -- these figures customer it is

important that the public trustees figures and I have a responsibility

to prevent reoffending. But how can the public or do you trust the

figures when they did not include things like the problems with

shoplifting, ten crimes being counted as one, as the place

federation pointed? Domestic violence seemed to continue at the

same level, and yet, the figures say you're doing marvellous. When we

give the public don't have confidence in crime recording, that

is of great concern to me. What we're looking at in Hampshire,

particularly around business crime, I have spoken to the Federation of

Small Businesses. Business crime should be taken more seriously in

terms of recording in Hampshire. some people don't even reported to

the place when the destroyed and maybe just pay the money back to

someone. That shouldn't carry on, surely? People should report crime

to the police and we would ask that people do report crimes. What we

have seen in this round of statistics is a clear route duction

of crime in a number of years, not just the last 12 months. That's

where you can do something, isn't it, because people should be getting

crime numbers from the police and the place should be interested. When

someone goes to the man says, I'm suspicious about this, a lot of the

time, the impression is that the police aren't interested. I think

one of the things that will come out of this is that that interest will

be found to be in within -- will be found to be within the police

constabulary. And the policing plan I have an Isle of Wight in the next

five years, there are targets and elements that the police will need

to look at. But they will meet the targets because they will find a way

of gaining these figures. It is what is happening in education and Health

Service. There is no advantage in the police constabulary fiddling the

figures, and I am the Chief Constable in Hampshire and Isle of

Wight, and I'm keen to make sure that will not happen. Phillip Lee,

do you think this chasing after targets and statistics is a good

thing? It'll all be seen to the public that the target has been

achieved, and they put -- and yet, the perception as it is not. I am

not a great fan of targets. I blame the previous Government for that.

The public want to perceive that things are being chest and

perceived. -- are being achieved. You would expect at a time of

economic distress for crime to go up significantly. I'm not suggesting it

is a perfect survey. It is internationally recognised, I might

add. It is respected. But, of course there is more work to do. My

personal position is that targets in politics has got us into that God is

in the past. Is getting us into over crime? The reduction of crime is to

be welcomed. Is it? Can we believe it? There are new crowns emerging

because of technology. Would you have said that six years ago?

sitting in Cabinet and Alan Johnson telling us that crime figures had

reduced. At that like exam inflation. Every year, they do

better. There are important trends to keep an eye out for. There is

evidence through Freedom of information requests. Community

resolution requests have gone up in four years for violent crimes as

well. That is the thousand violent crimes are not being recorded.

People aren't getting a criminal record for them. Thank you very

much. Now for our regular round-up of the

political week in the South in 60 seconds. This week, we're out on the

beat. If we all walked an extra ten

minutes a day, it would save the National Health Service millions. In

Reading, they are saving money for local schools and saving lives,

counting each step of 20 -- 33,000 people. That would save six lives

every year. Chris Huhne what from prison after serving two months for

lying about driving too fast. His dad drove him home. The Thames

Valley -- the Thames Valley crankiness and finally got itself a

chauffeur and bad publicity over expensive. The police are trying to

recruit new Polish speaking PCSO's. South Central ambulance say the mean

annual -- say their engines will be told of when training. In Hampshire,

to police patrol cars were used to escort a mobility scooter. A

passerby found the convoy. You've got to love that someone stuck there

and Eddie Carter recalled that, haven't you? Technology, it is

great, but could we do it a bit more walking question might -- a bit more

walking? My wife would say I could do with a rest from my technology.

The sweet and drink, don't tweet and walk the dog. And not convinced

technologies making us healthier. I think we're becoming obsessed with

immediacy and not thinking and reflecting enough upon life. I am

not a huge fan of technology, in some ways. Clearly there are bits of

it that are great, not least of which someone filming something

rather daft on the road. But we are all connected everywhere. We have

statistics. We have solar panels on some of those are nuances. It is

saving the planet, isn't it? That is a good thing. Let's not overdo it

with how much solar panels save the planet, but yes, it is technology

that is making a positive impact, and that is to be celebrated.

only space committee, Alger got a Mac -- you are only space

committee, Alger? I am. I have any lot of work on technology, and and

have seen the positive effects it can have on learning, I can see the

way it has disrupted some things. Economically, there are bad things,

but the away out weighed by the good things.