13/07/2014 Sunday Politics South


13/07/2014

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Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay

:00:37.:00:42.

As the campaign heads for the final furlong,

:00:43.:00:45.

what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?

:00:46.:00:50.

The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.

:00:51.:00:53.

David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.

:00:54.:00:56.

Many of those tipped for promotion are women.

:00:57.:00:59.

So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or

:01:00.:01:03.

And don't know whether to support Germany or

:01:04.:01:12.

I have been talking to our political guide to the World Cup.

:01:13.:01:24.

I have been talking to our contingent of new UKIP MEPs.

:01:25.:01:38.

It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the

:01:39.:01:41.

Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis

:01:42.:01:46.

we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.

:01:47.:01:50.

And for top political analysis you may

:01:51.:01:52.

as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick

:01:53.:01:56.

David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.

:01:57.:02:06.

The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be

:02:07.:02:09.

in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.

:02:10.:02:12.

The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,

:02:13.:02:15.

reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox

:02:16.:02:17.

is in line for a return to the political front line.

:02:18.:02:20.

But there's general agreement that women will do well and some

:02:21.:02:27.

of the old men in suits guard will do badly.

:02:28.:02:30.

Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.

:02:31.:02:40.

It's good to make parliament more representative.

:02:41.:02:47.

But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create

:02:48.:02:50.

injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.

:02:51.:02:53.

And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being

:02:54.:03:01.

accelerated too far too fast and they come to

:03:02.:03:04.

a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves.

:03:05.:03:09.

I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is

:03:10.:03:23.

going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not

:03:24.:03:31.

be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It

:03:32.:03:36.

is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a

:03:37.:03:43.

great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we

:03:44.:03:47.

refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government.

:03:48.:03:52.

David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the

:03:53.:03:59.

old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and

:04:00.:04:03.

a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations.

:04:04.:04:10.

A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to

:04:11.:04:16.

move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being

:04:17.:04:20.

very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority

:04:21.:04:25.

voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not

:04:26.:04:32.

do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot

:04:33.:04:38.

of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list

:04:39.:04:43.

which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all

:04:44.:04:47.

of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a

:04:48.:04:52.

long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging

:04:53.:04:58.

feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has

:04:59.:05:02.

an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by

:05:03.:05:12.

that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions

:05:13.:05:14.

because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking

:05:15.:05:20.

about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that

:05:21.:05:25.

embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach

:05:26.:05:28.

if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless

:05:29.:05:35.

but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would

:05:36.:05:40.

have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be

:05:41.:05:52.

pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised

:05:53.:05:56.

expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be

:05:57.:06:00.

given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are

:06:01.:06:05.

given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks

:06:06.:06:10.

perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female

:06:11.:06:16.

commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has

:06:17.:06:24.

made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a

:06:25.:06:30.

better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We

:06:31.:06:37.

are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time

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as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be

:06:44.:06:49.

able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like

:06:50.:06:56.

Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There

:06:57.:07:05.

Archie Norman. That come from? His great scepticism of giving it to

:07:06.:07:07.

Andrew Lansley. People would think he was the man who mucked up the

:07:08.:07:11.

reform of the NHS. Who is it going to be? Either a woman

:07:12.:07:13.

favourite rumour is Michael Howard. That had some legs for a while.

:07:14.:07:51.

The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street predict with confidence that the PM

:07:52.:07:55.

is going to promote more women in his cabinet reshuffle.

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The move can be seen as part of a move across British public life

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to do more to make our institutions less male and less white.

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But as the list of schemes to encourage diversity

:08:04.:09:26.

But as the list leader of the Labour Party, and

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having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy

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leader of the Labour Party I discovered that I was not to be

:09:35.:09:39.

appointed as Deputy Prime Minister. For women in this country, no matter

:09:40.:09:43.

how able they are, the matter how hard they might work, they are still

:09:44.:09:49.

not equal. There are initiatives to make the world feel more equal. In

:09:50.:09:54.

the City the EU wants a quarter for women in the boardroom but that goal

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of making 40% of the top floor female. At the BBC the boss of the

:10:00.:10:04.

TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male. In the ever

:10:05.:10:10.

glamorous movie business the British film Institute announced their new

:10:11.:10:14.

thematic system to get lottery funding projects improving diversity

:10:15.:10:20.

on screen and off and helping social mobility. Employers like Crossrail

:10:21.:10:28.

are not allowed to positively discriminate but under the quality

:10:29.:10:32.

act of 2010 if two candidate for a job are just as good you are allowed

:10:33.:10:36.

to base your decision on characteristics like race, sexuality

:10:37.:10:42.

and gender. Some worry it has chipped away at the idea of hiring

:10:43.:10:49.

on merit. A woman and three men going for a job, two of the men are

:10:50.:10:53.

really good and the woman is not quite as good but she gets the job

:10:54.:10:57.

anyway. That will create injustice, a feeling that she did not deserve

:10:58.:11:04.

the job, resentment. It does not advance equality in society at all.

:11:05.:11:14.

On this project they want to leave a concrete legacy of a more diverse

:11:15.:11:18.

construction industry. The question is, what tools do you use when it

:11:19.:11:20.

comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by

:11:21.:11:31.

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent

:11:32.:11:33.

and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible

:11:34.:11:35.

for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches

:11:36.:11:48.

though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do

:11:49.:11:55.

it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite

:11:56.:12:01.

right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot

:12:02.:12:07.

of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire

:12:08.:12:11.

population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he

:12:12.:12:16.

should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants

:12:17.:12:18.

promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they

:12:19.:12:26.

are good performers in the media, whether they represent different

:12:27.:12:30.

parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of

:12:31.:12:35.

merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should

:12:36.:12:39.

be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with.

:12:40.:12:43.

The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the

:12:44.:12:47.

face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have

:12:48.:12:52.

always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have

:12:53.:12:59.

appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with

:13:00.:13:04.

that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and

:13:05.:13:06.

every other country throughout history. We are asking as women all

:13:07.:13:13.

minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot

:13:14.:13:19.

solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism.

:13:20.:13:25.

It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number

:13:26.:13:30.

of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with

:13:31.:13:35.

childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a

:13:36.:13:39.

target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and

:13:40.:13:43.

more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will

:13:44.:13:49.

take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are

:13:50.:13:51.

counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on

:13:52.:13:52.

their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the

:13:53.:13:55.

perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It

:13:56.:14:00.

is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these

:14:01.:14:11.

hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want

:14:12.:14:13.

it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want

:14:14.:14:17.

it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers.

:14:18.:14:22.

How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries

:14:23.:14:30.

won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more

:14:31.:14:36.

engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women

:14:37.:14:43.

to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an

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organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not

:14:51.:15:12.

go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved

:15:13.:15:21.

miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an

:15:22.:15:25.

injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large

:15:26.:15:29.

percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female

:15:30.:15:36.

short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is

:15:37.:15:43.

mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes,

:15:44.:15:51.

absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want

:15:52.:16:00.

to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each.

:16:01.:16:05.

Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister

:16:06.:16:11.

and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind

:16:12.:16:18.

this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with

:16:19.:16:29.

us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born

:16:30.:16:33.

with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue

:16:34.:16:39.

not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female

:16:40.:16:43.

ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very

:16:44.:16:51.

quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a

:16:52.:16:57.

male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that

:16:58.:17:03.

give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which

:17:04.:17:08.

group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something

:17:09.:17:13.

fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a

:17:14.:17:17.

reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would

:17:18.:17:22.

argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing.

:17:23.:17:23.

argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more

:17:24.:17:26.

women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend but

:17:27.:17:35.

if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That

:17:36.:17:39.

is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be

:17:40.:17:42.

able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to

:17:43.:17:48.

discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is

:17:49.:17:52.

female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough

:17:53.:17:56.

suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior

:17:57.:18:03.

position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion

:18:04.:18:06.

Harriet Harman is still complaining women are not being treated fairly.

:18:07.:18:13.

I think the policy reinforces the prejudice that women are not getting

:18:14.:18:17.

there because they are treated on the same basis. Although you may not

:18:18.:18:24.

want to have the all-female short list forever, wasn't it the kind of

:18:25.:18:28.

shock to the system that made a visible change in female

:18:29.:18:33.

representation, which the Tory side hasn't got? Of course it will work

:18:34.:18:40.

short-term but longer term it has a very degrading effect on the

:18:41.:18:45.

principle of equality and the fact Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't

:18:46.:18:50.

treated equally, whether it is true or not, the perception is still

:18:51.:18:58.

there. A number of women find this position must be reserved for a

:18:59.:19:02.

woman lying patronising, and speaking of patronising women, you

:19:03.:19:11.

spoken your Independent column, she presses all of the buttons for white

:19:12.:19:15.

people... Was that patronising and offensive? Probably. I wrote it

:19:16.:19:21.

because I felt that at the time but the point is that I was a token when

:19:22.:19:26.

I was appointed. The paper brought me in because I was a woman and I

:19:27.:19:32.

was a muslin or whatever. You are not writing about yourself. I was

:19:33.:19:38.

writing... It doesn't mean you don't criticise other women. We absolutely

:19:39.:19:54.

have to be tough, Manira is tough and so am I. Do you want to take

:19:55.:20:01.

back what you wrote? No. Do you really think positive discrimination

:20:02.:20:07.

has gone too far? I think there is already a suspicion out there that

:20:08.:20:13.

in certain sectors women are being promoted for the wrong reasons or

:20:14.:20:16.

ethnic minorities are being promoted for the wrong reasons. That is a

:20:17.:20:23.

shame and my worry is that by tying funding to your ethnicity or your

:20:24.:20:27.

gender, by saying you will get a promotion if you check that box but

:20:28.:20:31.

you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for

:20:32.:20:42.

inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of

:20:43.:20:48.

doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest

:20:49.:20:56.

constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the

:20:57.:21:02.

UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has

:21:03.:21:06.

been the impact on the campaign to date?

:21:07.:21:13.

Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union

:21:14.:21:18.

with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the

:21:19.:21:22.

UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child

:21:23.:21:28.

care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims

:21:29.:21:36.

it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on

:21:37.:21:41.

the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against

:21:42.:21:48.

independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts

:21:49.:21:52.

George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso

:21:53.:21:58.

told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the

:21:59.:22:03.

EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions

:22:04.:22:17.

claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this

:22:18.:22:24.

morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the

:22:25.:22:31.

SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon,

:22:32.:22:36.

the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an

:22:37.:22:40.

independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the

:22:41.:22:47.

EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would

:22:48.:22:52.

have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of

:22:53.:22:59.

these things should be the case because they are in the best

:23:00.:23:02.

interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to

:23:03.:23:08.

enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and

:23:09.:23:14.

overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also

:23:15.:23:20.

want powers over our social security system so that we can create a

:23:21.:23:26.

system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the

:23:27.:23:29.

most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about

:23:30.:23:36.

letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my

:23:37.:23:40.

question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound

:23:41.:23:45.

within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot

:23:46.:23:50.

guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue

:23:51.:23:55.

that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of

:23:56.:24:00.

the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we

:24:01.:24:05.

use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister

:24:06.:24:11.

quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right

:24:12.:24:15.

now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote,

:24:16.:24:19.

of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The

:24:20.:24:27.

Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the

:24:28.:24:32.

Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are

:24:33.:24:37.

basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story?

:24:38.:24:46.

Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best

:24:47.:24:51.

interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of

:24:52.:24:55.

the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland

:24:56.:25:00.

and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very

:25:01.:25:08.

good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not

:25:09.:25:19.

a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel

:25:20.:25:25.

scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of

:25:26.:25:29.

negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most

:25:30.:25:32.

economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to

:25:33.:25:36.

have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander

:25:37.:25:41.

are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing

:25:42.:25:47.

but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the

:25:48.:25:51.

benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to

:25:52.:25:55.

George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would

:25:56.:25:59.

be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK

:26:00.:26:05.

that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half

:26:06.:26:08.

a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK

:26:09.:26:11.

that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of

:26:12.:26:16.

half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense

:26:17.:26:20.

and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by

:26:21.:26:25.

the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the

:26:26.:26:34.

common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven t

:26:35.:26:37.

been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said

:26:38.:26:47.

that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent

:26:48.:26:50.

Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be

:26:51.:26:55.

impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but

:26:56.:27:05.

been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we

:27:06.:27:11.

are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said

:27:12.:27:16.

repeatedly to the UK Government let's go jointly and ask for a

:27:17.:27:20.

formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have

:27:21.:27:24.

said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for

:27:25.:27:31.

it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is

:27:32.:27:37.

in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral

:27:38.:27:43.

part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with

:27:44.:27:49.

the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he

:27:50.:27:54.

still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you

:27:55.:27:59.

could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our

:28:00.:28:11.

proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think

:28:12.:28:17.

is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many

:28:18.:28:22.

nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be

:28:23.:28:28.

outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the

:28:29.:28:31.

current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to

:28:32.:28:37.

stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union

:28:38.:28:40.

are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common

:28:41.:28:45.

sense and people in Scotland will make

:28:46.:28:45.

sense and people in Scotland will their own

:28:46.:29:18.

sense and people in Scotland will so in a thoroughly democratic way.

:29:19.:29:26.

That is the nature of democracy Would you accept the protection of

:29:27.:29:36.

the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is no doubt the SNP's

:29:37.:31:01.

you do not like the idea of nuclear. Why would they like a member like

:31:02.:31:06.

you in? Because Scotland is a significant part of the territory of

:31:07.:31:09.

the North Atlantic. You do not subscribe to the rules. 25 of the

:31:10.:31:14.

member states of NATO are non-nuclear members. You are saying

:31:15.:31:23.

you do not follow the doctrine. NATO has said it wants to move away from

:31:24.:31:28.

reliance on nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland would be

:31:29.:31:32.

entering the majority mainstream of NATO as a country that did not have

:31:33.:31:37.

nuclear weapons. By leading by example our moral authority and

:31:38.:31:41.

encouraging others to do likewise would be increased. Money and oil,

:31:42.:31:48.

the finance minister has said that an independent Scotland would

:31:49.:31:50.

increase public spending by 3% a year. He would pay for that by

:31:51.:31:55.

borrowing. Your First Minister says he is going to stash money in an oil

:31:56.:32:00.

fund. You're going to borrow and save. How does that work? There are

:32:01.:32:09.

two points. Firstly in terms of the outlook for finances and what is one

:32:10.:32:12.

of the central debates of this referendum campaign, austerity that

:32:13.:32:17.

we know will continue if we stay as part of the Westminster system

:32:18.:32:23.

versus prosperity. The economy can afford a higher level of increase in

:32:24.:32:27.

public spending while we continue to have deficit levels at a sustainable

:32:28.:32:33.

level. What is the point of borrowing and saving at the same

:32:34.:32:38.

time? People who have a mortgage and the savings account would not

:32:39.:32:40.

themselves what the wisdom of that is. This is based on recommendations

:32:41.:32:47.

of our expert fiscal Commission that as borrowing reduces to sustainable

:32:48.:32:53.

levels it makes sense to start saving a proportion of our oil

:32:54.:32:57.

wealth. In Norway, which has many similarities to Scotland, they have

:32:58.:33:03.

an oil fund worth ?500 billion. Scotland is part of the Westminster

:33:04.:33:09.

system is sitting on a share of UK debt. We can continue to allow our

:33:10.:33:15.

oil wealth, our vast oil wealth to be mismanaged or we can decide we

:33:16.:33:19.

are going to manage that resource better in the years to come. Your

:33:20.:33:25.

figures do not add up unless you are about oil prices and revenue and you

:33:26.:33:29.

have been consistently wrong in your predictions. Last year you forecast

:33:30.:33:33.

that revenues would be the .7 billion more than they actually work

:33:34.:33:43.

-- 3.7 billion. The cost of the Scottish school system gone. There

:33:44.:33:48.

were particular reasons for that in terms of interruption to production

:33:49.:33:52.

and bigger levels of investment Used ill have to find the money Let

:33:53.:33:59.

me explain. They are based on robust assumptions, firstly a production

:34:00.:34:03.

estimates that is in line with the estimates of the oil and gas

:34:04.:34:07.

industry. Use of figures that are based on production of 10 billion

:34:08.:34:13.

barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been wrong as well. It is 24 billion left

:34:14.:34:19.

to be recovered. That is what is in the UK Government's oil and gas

:34:20.:34:23.

strategy so production in line with industry estimates and an oil price

:34:24.:34:30.

of $110 per barrel which is flat in cash terms would be a real terms

:34:31.:34:35.

reduction. The Department of energy is estimating $128 per barrel so our

:34:36.:34:40.

estimate compared to that is cautious. These are robust estimates

:34:41.:34:46.

based on robust assumptions. Except they have been wrong. Finally, we

:34:47.:34:53.

hear a lot from you and your fellow nationalists, you want a

:34:54.:34:57.

Scandinavian style social democracy, you know how to spend the money but

:34:58.:35:02.

you never tell us about social democratic levels of taxation. Also

:35:03.:35:05.

should grizzlies have higher levels of tax in Scotland does at the

:35:06.:35:13.

moment -- all social grizzlies. I want a Scottish style of social

:35:14.:35:20.

democracy. Free education, free medicines and balancing the books

:35:21.:35:24.

every single year. We want to get more people into work in Scotland,

:35:25.:35:29.

raise the level of distribution in the Labour market and make the

:35:30.:35:32.

economy more productive so we are raising the overall tax revenue

:35:33.:35:38.

Over the last 33 years we have generated more taxpayer head of

:35:39.:35:41.

population than is the case and the rest of the UK. Those last 33 years,

:35:42.:35:49.

some of those years oil prices would have been high and in others they

:35:50.:35:52.

would have been law but we take different decisions. A report showed

:35:53.:35:57.

that if we go as part of the Westminster system down the plate --

:35:58.:36:03.

route of replacing Trident then the cost will be as high as ?4 billion

:36:04.:36:09.

every year. Our share of that is the hundred million pounds a year. Let

:36:10.:36:14.

us get access to our own resources so we can make different and better

:36:15.:36:17.

decisions about how to spend the resources we have. You are promising

:36:18.:36:24.

Scandinavian style social democratic levels of public spending but you

:36:25.:36:28.

say you will not need a top rate of tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia

:36:29.:36:36.

has, that all 25%, which is what Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You

:36:37.:36:41.

are going to have the spending but none of the taxes that make it

:36:42.:36:46.

possible in Scandinavia. For mischievous reasons you are met --

:36:47.:36:50.

misrepresenting what I am saying. The Scottish economy can afford it

:36:51.:36:57.

and we want to generate more wealth in our economy. We want to use the

:36:58.:37:01.

existing resources Scotland has We are the 14th richest country in the

:37:02.:37:06.

world in terms of what we produce. We do not want to be wasting

:37:07.:37:11.

resources. We want to be spending resources on the things that other

:37:12.:37:15.

priority for the people of Scotland. These are the benefits and the

:37:16.:37:19.

opportunities really get if we take the opportunity of voting yes and

:37:20.:37:21.

becoming independent. will call in the manifesto, I am

:37:22.:39:59.

sure. It will have to be scrutinised properly. The Liberal Democrat

:40:00.:40:06.

position is different. And cable has said that today. Our MPs do not have

:40:07.:40:12.

the minimum threshold. Why should anyone who is a public sector

:40:13.:40:16.

worker? We need to work with the unions. I think it is a shale that

:40:17.:40:23.

make up as antagonised thesd people. As a teacher myself, I know that you

:40:24.:40:33.

did not strike likely. Is hd making things worse? Our members whll be

:40:34.:40:39.

extremely disappointed to hdar that the discussion today is abott strike

:40:40.:40:47.

ballots. What they want to hear is that it is not great, does not fear

:40:48.:40:49.

that people delivering local that people delivering local

:40:50.:40:54.

government services should be asked to work on poverty pay. That they

:40:55.:40:58.

should have no pay rise for five years above inflation. They have

:40:59.:41:21.

lost 20% of the value of thdrapy. Those people should not be `sked to

:41:22.:41:27.

pay `` to make up a deficit. That is not justice. Surely the bal`nce ``

:41:28.:41:37.

the ballot, at two`year`old ballot, why restrict or? Why inconvdnience

:41:38.:41:45.

people. I cannot speak on that. , but we have a mandate for action.

:41:46.:41:56.

Would you have preferred a workplace ballot? We had a clear mand`te. Our

:41:57.:42:05.

members requested that. It hs their decision to strike, not mind. I

:42:06.:42:15.

think attempts to undermine that and make the discussion about the ballot

:42:16.:42:18.

and the legitimacy of the strike, rather than the real issue, which is

:42:19.:42:22.

about fair wages, is the wrong message to send those workers. Fair

:42:23.:42:29.

wages. Liberal Democrats were supposed to be about that. No here

:42:30.:42:41.

is the tax funded part of otr economy been told that they will

:42:42.:42:44.

have to take less each year. People are struggling. That is why we

:42:45.:42:47.

brought in the raising of the tax threshold to ?10,000. That was a key

:42:48.:42:53.

promise and manifesto. On one hand, you need to rebalance the t`x system

:42:54.:42:56.

so that those who are doing the hardest work on mortgages are those

:42:57.:43:02.

that are rewarded. That is why we want a tax above `` on homes above

:43:03.:43:09.

?2 million. So you would rather that we paid them more? I would rather

:43:10.:43:14.

that public sector workers were getting paid... Well, it is not up

:43:15.:43:22.

to me to decide what. If I get elected in the next `` next

:43:23.:43:27.

election, will not be DTP rhce and they do also. I think it is right.

:43:28.:43:36.

The fact that our members are struggling by, will MPs takd 11 , I

:43:37.:43:42.

think that is unfair. There is a crisis in the public sector at the

:43:43.:43:48.

moment, workloads are up. Pdople, we have lost 400,000 jobs ``.

:43:49.:43:59.

It is absolutely right that the government, listens to this. That is

:44:00.:44:12.

what the strike was all abott. It seems that it is not being taken

:44:13.:44:16.

seriously. I think it is behng taken very seriously. Talking abott

:44:17.:44:24.

balances and thresholds, it is a bit of a misnomer. We have to rdmember

:44:25.:44:26.

that the debt `` the deficit that we that the debt `` the deficit that we

:44:27.:44:32.

have. The caution came together in the national interest to trx to

:44:33.:44:39.

skill this country's debts. Would I like to be sitting here as ` member

:44:40.:44:42.

of Parliament, what David C`meron as prime Minster, offering teachers are

:44:43.:44:49.

much bigger pay rise? Of cotrse we would. We're not in this business to

:44:50.:45:08.

make people more power. `` poor People are making money. Th`t is

:45:09.:45:14.

what the public sector is. `` private sector. But in the public

:45:15.:45:25.

sector, we have to be responsible. I do not think the government can move

:45:26.:45:30.

on this. I think the strikes are unhelpful. Do you think there will

:45:31.:45:43.

be changed before the next election? We will have to do that.

:45:44.:45:49.

If we do not get to `` if wd do not see movement, that will happen.

:45:50.:45:59.

Members deserve that. Thank you for coming in.

:46:00.:46:04.

The European elections back in May were a bit of a bloodbath for

:46:05.:46:08.

Liberal Democrats. They werd left one solitary MP representing the

:46:09.:46:13.

south`east. You kept at its best election ever and is now thd largest

:46:14.:46:18.

group from the UK. In the l`st month he had been settling into the new

:46:19.:46:19.

jobs and offices. We have won some very competent

:46:20.:46:33.

MEPs. May 21 We have won some very competent

:46:34.:46:40.

MEPs. May sought ten Liberal Democrat MEPs called from the group.

:46:41.:46:51.

I am beginning to feel like now I set with a group of people, nearly

:46:52.:46:57.

70 of us, who are the fourth largest party in the Parliament, so we will

:46:58.:47:08.

have a lot of sway on the votes Are the others within the Liber`l

:47:09.:47:11.

Democrat groups more federalist Samar is, some are not. The Germans

:47:12.:47:16.

are less federalist, interestingly enough, because they come from a

:47:17.:47:26.

company that is federated. How do you see the next five years? Is it

:47:27.:47:35.

all unknown? I have things that I want to achieve. I want to get

:47:36.:47:42.

environmental protection buhlt in and what to do some more work on the

:47:43.:47:46.

trafficking of human beings. There's a lot that I personally want to do.

:47:47.:47:53.

I just been elected as a qudst. It means that I am the MEP's

:47:54.:47:57.

representative on the bugle that runs the Parliament. It is not like

:47:58.:48:07.

being in Westminster, where one MP cannot gain animate `` cannot get an

:48:08.:48:16.

amendment. We work together, whether I am working with a socialist one

:48:17.:48:19.

day or Christian Democrats the next day, we find people that we can work

:48:20.:48:26.

with and we work. It is what I call grown`up politics. Miguel, one block

:48:27.:48:36.

over, here. The furniture looks like something my grandmother wotld have

:48:37.:48:41.

had. There is supposed to bd a drinks cabinet. Yes, I belidve it is

:48:42.:48:58.

here. What is the letter? I do not know. It is probably a death threat,

:48:59.:49:04.

I would imagine, from the Lhberal Democrats! It is somebody asking for

:49:05.:49:11.

a job. We will appoint the star I warn we're a point staff th`t will

:49:12.:49:17.

do something properly. Therd is no point just enjoying `` employing

:49:18.:49:18.

your friends. And speaking of friends... He is a

:49:19.:49:32.

veteran of the last Parliamdnt, when the party lost half of its LEPs I

:49:33.:49:38.

knew within weeks that therd was going to be trouble. That is not the

:49:39.:49:46.

case this time. Different pdople? Different people, I think some

:49:47.:49:52.

people are born troublemaker is anyway. I do not think we h`ve any

:49:53.:49:57.

of that in this group of people He has a book on fishing. Taking his

:49:58.:50:14.

work seriously? Cod, there `re no coddle left. I do fishing in the

:50:15.:50:18.

channel and when you're catching cod, the common fisheries

:50:19.:50:53.

find somewhere to love? `` the incest. `` they insist. The money is

:50:54.:51:01.

there if you want to make it. I would rather just as nonlivhng, to

:51:02.:51:06.

be honest. It is even more corrupt, even more anti`democratic and even

:51:07.:52:35.

Apart from the bride and groom, the only names on their are of the

:52:36.:52:41.

blade's father and the grool's father. Mothers do not get `lbum

:52:42.:52:47.

again. This woman wants to get things change. If you're

:52:48.:52:50.

passionately about this. Yes, I do. I do not think there should be a

:52:51.:52:55.

legal document which in 2014 is discriminating against women in this

:52:56.:53:01.

way. Cheating in a Victorian week, the whole thing as our business

:53:02.:53:04.

transaction between two fathers Yes. Woman have been written out of

:53:05.:53:17.

history. Is it really that serious? I think that it has very important,

:53:18.:53:22.

because it is part of a widdr pattern. People are very upset about

:53:23.:53:27.

it. They have been explaining on my petition, they have been getting

:53:28.:53:30.

married and not being able to include their mothers. Therd have

:53:31.:53:37.

been registrars have signed the petition who are saying that every

:53:38.:53:40.

day there haven't explained to people that the form is still in use

:53:41.:53:49.

Where I got married, they h`ve one Where I got married, they h`ve one

:53:50.:53:54.

bit that they have had sincd the 1800, with the names of the people

:53:55.:53:59.

that got married and that vhllage. It is a bit of history. Do xou see

:54:00.:54:07.

for that bit away? Not at all. You could have space on the reghsters

:54:08.:54:11.

and on the marriage certificates at the moment to start recording

:54:12.:54:15.

mothers, and perhaps bring hn new certificates and new registdrs when

:54:16.:54:19.

the old ones were used up. H think it is important, in 2014, that this

:54:20.:54:24.

legal inequality needs to bd stopped. People are raising

:54:25.:54:36.

practical objections. I was people using it as a ruse? I think most

:54:37.:54:41.

people are in support of it, or they are not against it. Because there

:54:42.:54:49.

are still an entrenched atthtude and society, you think there nedds to

:54:50.:54:55.

change? Yes, it is an important message. It is part of this wider

:54:56.:55:03.

pattern and there it is being brought to people's attention, with

:55:04.:55:10.

109 in `` MPs signing the e`rly days of motion and the it's been talked

:55:11.:55:16.

about in the House of Commons, I am looking for the Home Office to get

:55:17.:55:23.

it changed. Will the change it? I hope so. The initial reply was that

:55:24.:55:35.

they had no plans to change the law. That is a classic reply. Thdy have

:55:36.:55:44.

come at this week and seeing that the government is actively looking

:55:45.:55:48.

at this. It seems to me that this is a bit of a no`brainer. Why hs it not

:55:49.:55:57.

happening? As we were seeing Elliott, we need to make sure that

:55:58.:56:03.

there are not things stopping people getting equal pay. It took ` lot to

:56:04.:56:07.

get equal marriage fruit Parliament. We need to focus on things that are

:56:08.:56:11.

of the Day today, it's huge inequalities. Why should thd mother

:56:12.:56:16.

not to be inequalities. Why should thd mother

:56:17.:56:22.

there? Some people are brought up either ``

:56:23.:56:35.

campaign to get parents' nales on children who pause passports. ``

:56:36.:56:45.

children's passports. I don't favour is any sinister plot here, ht is

:56:46.:56:50.

just a piece of old law that needs updating. `` I don't think. The only

:56:51.:56:58.

reason the Government is looking at it is because I have mobilised

:56:59.:57:03.

60,000 people online. Have xou signed it? Yes, that is how

:57:04.:57:09.

democracy works. I think shd is onto something.

:57:10.:57:27.

On Monday Government ministdrs fanned out trumpet in new

:57:28.:57:30.

infrastructure growth deals. The Defence Secretary in Oxfordshire

:57:31.:57:36.

said they were trusting loc`l enterprise partnerships. Getting

:57:37.:57:39.

away from centrally determined priorities to locally deterline

:57:40.:57:40.

priorities. A huge flood relief scheme

:57:41.:57:47.

for Oxford's on the list, but six months on from flooding

:57:48.:57:50.

in Basingstoke, some are not back in their homes, and others worry

:57:51.:57:53.

they'll be hit again. If we do get another downpotr,

:57:54.:57:55.

we?re going to be back to how we was before because they're not

:57:56.:57:59.

maintaining the drains. Thousands of care workers

:58:00.:58:01.

in the South are getting less than the minimum wage, because they?re

:58:02.:58:04.

not paid to travel between jobs If I've worked it,

:58:05.:58:06.

I should be paid it. 140 staff at Oxfordshire Cotnty

:58:07.:58:08.

Council could be asked to work in Winchester, as they shard admin

:58:09.:58:11.

and finance with Hampshire. Meanwhile, it's costing ?20,000

:58:12.:58:14.

a month to keep Reading Prison That's the amount being spent

:58:15.:58:16.

on security, gas and electrhcity. That is ridiculous. And you are so

:58:17.:58:34.

focused on trying to find s`vings, but they are not always obvhous

:58:35.:58:41.

That business with the care workers, somewhere along the lines some

:58:42.:58:44.

private people have... Last time I was on this programme the ldader of

:58:45.:58:49.

Redding Council was sitting next to me, and I suspect they will be ``

:58:50.:58:59.

she will be onto that. `` Rddding. It is very difficult to drive

:59:00.:59:04.

efficiency. Is this idea of growth deals making things more local?

:59:05.:59:07.

Could that go wrong because people have the wrong way? The thing about

:59:08.:59:13.

these growth deals is they have been driven by Nick Clegg' `` Nick

:59:14.:59:19.

Clegg's office. It is at thd heart of localism to drive the economy

:59:20.:59:24.

with people who understand how that local economy works. So the

:59:25.:59:30.

Oxfordshire `` they have worked closely with the county councils and

:59:31.:59:34.

district councils, parish councils, and we have to work out how best to

:59:35.:59:38.

do it. The best people to s`y how to do that other people on the ground.

:59:39.:59:42.

When you have centralisation, that is when you have wastage. More

:59:43.:59:48.

savings to be made to? In the next Parliament? Whoever is in

:59:49.:59:53.

Government, there will be a long`term economic land. We have

:59:54.:59:57.

talked about the local enterprise partnerships, they have dond very

:59:58.:00:06.

well. `` economic plan. Thex have done very well out of the growth

:00:07.:00:11.

deal, and we want more. The coalition is united on pushhng

:00:12.:00:18.

power, pushing resources. To end `` we end our series with the

:00:19.:00:24.

two of you at least United! That is it for today. Thank you to ly

:00:25.:00:30.

guests. You can keep up`to`date by reading my blog.

:00:31.:00:35.

will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have.

:00:36.:00:48.

So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including

:00:49.:00:51.

a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and

:00:52.:00:53.

Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make

:00:54.:01:14.

a difference? It will make a difference because we have

:01:15.:01:20.

established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and

:01:21.:01:26.

why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent

:01:27.:01:33.

and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed

:01:34.:01:36.

this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed

:01:37.:01:48.

through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international

:01:49.:01:54.

examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon

:01:55.:01:59.

passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of

:02:00.:02:05.

control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled

:02:06.:02:07.

down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for

:02:08.:02:17.

this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a

:02:18.:02:20.

principled objection but most other people have a practical objection,

:02:21.:02:24.

which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous

:02:25.:02:27.

relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a

:02:28.:02:32.

controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is

:02:33.:02:37.

on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church

:02:38.:02:40.

against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is

:02:41.:02:49.

stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who

:02:50.:02:54.

can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who

:02:55.:02:59.

can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is

:03:00.:03:03.

potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of

:03:04.:03:07.

Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of

:03:08.:03:11.

England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please

:03:12.:03:18.

withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court

:03:19.:03:23.

kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of

:03:24.:03:28.

three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that

:03:29.:03:34.

banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights,

:03:35.:03:38.

but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to

:03:39.:03:47.

decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament In

:03:48.:03:52.

record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson

:03:53.:04:01.

and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the

:04:02.:04:05.

establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great

:04:06.:04:13.

quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act

:04:14.:04:17.

and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to

:04:18.:04:24.

look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could.

:04:25.:04:27.

There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about

:04:28.:04:32.

drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look

:04:33.:04:36.

something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is

:04:37.:04:42.

right or is the political establishment right? I think the

:04:43.:04:51.

establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We

:04:52.:04:57.

are in a unique position where all three political parties have

:04:58.:04:59.

relatively recent experience of government so they now that security

:05:00.:05:04.

threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation

:05:05.:05:11.

being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I

:05:12.:05:18.

do not see the political controversy. All three political

:05:19.:05:23.

parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always

:05:24.:05:31.

are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but

:05:32.:05:35.

a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political

:05:36.:05:42.

controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy

:05:43.:05:48.

about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting,

:05:49.:05:55.

it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys

:05:56.:06:03.

setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have

:06:04.:06:07.

serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out

:06:08.:06:15.

in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have

:06:16.:06:21.

said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public

:06:22.:06:22.

school. For many English football fans,

:06:23.:06:25.

tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick

:06:26.:06:28.

between two traditional foes Well, if you're

:06:29.:06:31.

a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the

:06:32.:06:34.

nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced

:06:35.:06:37.

a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament,

:06:38.:06:52.

it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing

:06:53.:06:57.

and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group

:06:58.:07:01.

with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems

:07:02.:07:08.

There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over

:07:09.:07:10.

authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it

:07:11.:07:13.

through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the

:07:14.:07:23.

worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The

:07:24.:07:26.

left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and

:07:27.:07:31.

authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives

:07:32.:07:36.

remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the

:07:37.:07:45.

semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking

:07:46.:07:51.

on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out

:07:52.:07:56.

Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that

:07:57.:08:02.

pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?

:08:03.:08:11.

We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser

:08:12.:08:13.

Should we read political significance in to the fact that the

:08:14.:08:27.

only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?

:08:28.:08:33.

Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a

:08:34.:08:38.

Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour

:08:39.:08:43.

government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina

:08:44.:08:48.

Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It

:08:49.:08:53.

is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best

:08:54.:09:01.

football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2 10

:09:02.:09:07.

as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing

:09:08.:09:12.

people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I

:09:13.:09:16.

would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to

:09:17.:09:21.

seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not

:09:22.:09:29.

around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong

:09:30.:09:34.

political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the

:09:35.:09:46.

World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort

:09:47.:09:50.

of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk

:09:51.:09:58.

about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league

:09:59.:10:03.

is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership. It is very

:10:04.:10:09.

different from the Premier League. It is about football as a usual

:10:10.:10:17.

good. The ticket prices are lower. The fans are involved in running the

:10:18.:10:25.

club. It is a model that all English football clubs should emulate.

:10:26.:10:29.

Germany had a strong football team under centre right governments and

:10:30.:10:33.

centre left governments and a coalition. A strong football team

:10:34.:10:45.

and a strong economy. The Conservative MP who is the arch

:10:46.:10:49.

Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of the European Union and was for a few

:10:50.:10:52.

weeks ago when people were making jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker he

:10:53.:10:58.

was outraged and said you should not do that, so he could happily support

:10:59.:11:04.

Germany. What was interesting about the authoritarian and democratic

:11:05.:11:09.

regimes, what is great is that the World Cup is run by this open and

:11:10.:11:21.

democratic organisation Fifa. It is similar to the EU in many regards.

:11:22.:11:27.

Two countries led by women. Maybe gender is the thing. We did not win

:11:28.:11:36.

under Margaret Thatcher. There's one big difference with the EU, you

:11:37.:11:42.

cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go to a European summit. Did you know

:11:43.:11:49.

that Italy won two world cups under Mussolini? Can we

:11:50.:12:36.

that Italy won two world cups under win the European Championship. The

:12:37.:12:37.

first country Scotland have to play is Germany. What could possibly go

:12:38.:12:40.

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