14/09/2014 Sunday Politics South


14/09/2014

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

:00:36.:00:42.

Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

:00:43.:00:44.

their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

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They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

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beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

:00:56.:01:01.

The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

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Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

:01:04.:01:06.

David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

:01:07.:01:08.

As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

:01:09.:01:11.

President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

:01:12.:01:15.

Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

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he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

:01:23.:01:24.

As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

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I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

:01:34.:01:35.

And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown

:01:36.:01:43.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

:01:44.:01:45.

pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.

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step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?

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Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that

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Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the

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The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American

:02:18.:02:22.

journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently

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beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.

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The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,

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also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK

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Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed

:02:35.:02:36.

His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he

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David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said

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his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary

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Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power

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to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,

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Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.

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Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr

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Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.

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Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who

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have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David

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Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action

:03:39.:03:41.

Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or

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any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a

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will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in

:03:59.:04:01.

that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a

:04:02.:04:07.

collective response to what is a threat to humanity.

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Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now

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Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet

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again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options

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facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I

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think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these

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hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government

:04:40.:04:42.

policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states

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are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to

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make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might

:04:52.:04:56.

be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the

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past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the

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hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one

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there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the

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difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.

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Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction

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the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in

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perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not

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just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining

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his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about

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building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And

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training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the

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UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been

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arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually

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conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We

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have not got a clear answer from government and that is something

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where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible

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we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I

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think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to

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a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however

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terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play

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more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait

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see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would

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like to see would be British and American special forces going in and

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getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is

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very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few

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months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the

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ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of

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kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so

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you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get

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the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a

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possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly

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challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating

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within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are

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looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,

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thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed

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to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever

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lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked

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like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,

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though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO

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would carry the day. The new consensus is that

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it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of

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the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign

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had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the

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undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of

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63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move

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into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as

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the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the

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average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.

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There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the

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first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the

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other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by

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Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and

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there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have

:09:20.:09:23.

the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but

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their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another

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suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against

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50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with

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yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are

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undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling

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booths that could make all the difference.

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campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the

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Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You

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sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working

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people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,

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a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been

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achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being

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thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the

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underlying interests of working people are on working on the

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relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very

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messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the

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children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,

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and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded

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that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK

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context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the

:11:00.:11:05.

opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in

:11:06.:11:09.

taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on

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companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest

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of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,

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country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public

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expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have

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Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The

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British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex

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Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.

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And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,

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the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be

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gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working

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people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in

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fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,

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Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely

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if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the

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way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But

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Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The

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polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the

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average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip

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and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as

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Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour

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government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a

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stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.

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That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the

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people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on

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your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my

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feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the

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house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not

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only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy

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-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will

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mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The

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cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the

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financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry

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of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or

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less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in

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an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about

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nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are

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against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by

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independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.

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The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The

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danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex

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Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately

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joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --

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involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a

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peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole

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that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military

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entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,

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till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the

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grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines

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and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other

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hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British

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nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it

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showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely

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riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to

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be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises

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of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for

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the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told

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us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?

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I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result

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This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation

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of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The

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country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And

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the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a

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300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour

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leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer

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one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this

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deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it

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will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,

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particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and

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decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of

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Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just

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months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of

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people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a

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grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which

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history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get

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out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.

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Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,

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they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in

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Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the

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Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the

:18:15.:18:19.

chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly

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right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty

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and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many

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but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,

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but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the

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situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It

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is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the

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roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she

:18:59.:19:02.

pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would

:19:03.:19:07.

not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.

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If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it

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would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another

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issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the

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Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering

:19:26.:19:31.

home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had

:19:32.:19:37.

signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble

:19:38.:19:42.

for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of

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all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to

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risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win

:19:54.:19:58.

on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe

:19:59.:20:04.

fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already

:20:05.:20:09.

aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with

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death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday

:20:17.:20:22.

if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this

:20:23.:20:28.

home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on

:20:29.:20:32.

this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland

:20:33.:20:39.

getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole

:20:40.:20:47.

procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home

:20:48.:20:53.

rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to

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introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional

:21:00.:21:03.

monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It

:21:04.:21:09.

was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James

:21:10.:21:16.

Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not

:21:17.:21:22.

rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.

:21:23.:21:28.

It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns

:21:29.:21:30.

in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum

:21:31.:21:34.

Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign

:21:35.:21:45.

It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new

:21:46.:21:51.

great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,

:21:52.:21:58.

Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous

:21:59.:22:02.

Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.

:22:03.:22:09.

Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the

:22:10.:22:13.

referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron

:22:14.:22:18.

did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set

:22:19.:22:23.

out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,

:22:24.:22:29.

a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed

:22:30.:22:35.

improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a

:22:36.:22:40.

basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called

:22:41.:22:46.

Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the

:22:47.:22:51.

leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded

:22:52.:22:55.

with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of

:22:56.:22:59.

campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a

:23:00.:23:04.

break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes

:23:05.:23:09.

campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they

:23:10.:23:15.

accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when

:23:16.:23:23.

the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one

:23:24.:23:28.

week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the

:23:29.:23:33.

first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to

:23:34.:23:38.

head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that

:23:39.:23:42.

you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision

:23:43.:23:46.

if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally

:23:47.:23:55.

different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex

:23:56.:24:00.

Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the

:24:01.:24:04.

NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden

:24:05.:24:14.

-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex

:24:15.:24:20.

Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were

:24:21.:24:27.

other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like

:24:28.:24:31.

Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join

:24:32.:24:37.

the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?

:24:38.:24:41.

This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,

:24:42.:24:49.

Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are

:24:50.:24:52.

proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to

:24:53.:24:59.

stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and

:25:00.:25:02.

centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more

:25:03.:25:06.

devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the

:25:07.:25:11.

parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster

:25:12.:25:15.

some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister

:25:16.:25:20.

if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a

:25:21.:25:25.

good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'

:25:26.:25:31.

views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I

:25:32.:25:40.

am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from

:25:41.:25:43.

Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and

:25:44.:25:46.

I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly

:25:47.:25:51.

inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it

:25:52.:25:56.

would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30

:25:57.:26:01.

hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more

:26:02.:26:05.

about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.

:26:06.:26:09.

And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor

:26:10.:26:12.

of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.

:26:13.:26:14.

An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership

:26:15.:26:26.

of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is

:26:27.:26:31.

that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's

:26:32.:26:41.

prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is

:26:42.:26:46.

not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two

:26:47.:26:52.

years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting

:26:53.:26:57.

for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes

:26:58.:27:02.

on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom

:27:03.:27:07.

because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free

:27:08.:27:12.

prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not

:27:13.:27:17.

in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the

:27:18.:27:22.

price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry

:27:23.:27:26.

about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing

:27:27.:27:33.

stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power

:27:34.:27:43.

generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,

:27:44.:27:48.

natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class

:27:49.:27:53.

universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the

:27:54.:27:57.

world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the

:27:58.:28:01.

revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but

:28:02.:28:05.

it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand

:28:06.:28:09.

still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections

:28:10.:28:13.

of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to

:28:14.:28:20.

keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and

:28:21.:28:25.

you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.

:28:26.:28:32.

That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the

:28:33.:28:36.

most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic

:28:37.:28:44.

stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee

:28:45.:28:47.

employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking

:28:48.:28:53.

about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to

:28:54.:28:59.

continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the

:29:00.:29:03.

minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go

:29:04.:29:14.

onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The

:29:15.:29:26.

West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done

:29:27.:29:31.

because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil

:29:32.:29:37.

because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident

:29:38.:29:46.

and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn

:29:47.:29:52.

his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions

:29:53.:29:57.

and change are not just single event. What will happen here on

:29:58.:30:01.

Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being

:30:02.:30:07.

patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and

:30:08.:30:11.

abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice

:30:12.:30:17.

What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you

:30:18.:30:26.

against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes

:30:27.:30:30.

campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we

:30:31.:30:35.

are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a

:30:36.:30:43.

scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay

:30:44.:30:48.

on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be

:30:49.:30:52.

lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave

:30:53.:31:01.

the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your

:31:02.:31:07.

way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of

:31:08.:31:12.

business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be

:31:13.:31:16.

clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,

:31:17.:31:26.

because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England

:31:27.:31:33.

want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in

:31:34.:31:37.

Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the

:31:38.:31:41.

jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent

:31:42.:31:45.

and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can

:31:46.:31:49.

do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In

:31:50.:31:53.

wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are

:31:54.:31:57.

fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the

:31:58.:32:01.

socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it

:32:02.:32:09.

work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in

:32:10.:32:13.

Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters

:32:14.:32:16.

in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can

:32:17.:32:21.

reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three

:32:22.:32:25.

Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,

:32:26.:32:29.

austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he

:32:30.:32:33.

said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed

:32:34.:32:38.

Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see

:32:39.:32:42.

if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last

:32:43.:32:46.

Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The

:32:47.:32:49.

Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in

:32:50.:32:56.

Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do

:32:57.:33:00.

you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish

:33:01.:33:16.

general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you

:33:17.:33:18.

went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won

:33:19.:33:25.

a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why

:33:26.:33:29.

they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has

:33:30.:33:33.

thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and

:33:34.:33:38.

protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP

:33:39.:33:43.

who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the

:33:44.:33:48.

NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale

:33:49.:33:52.

people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public

:33:53.:33:56.

ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George

:33:57.:33:59.

Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish

:34:00.:34:05.

Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right

:34:06.:34:08.

in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,

:34:09.:34:13.

Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent

:34:14.:34:15.

Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an

:34:16.:34:21.

independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir

:34:22.:34:27.

Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the

:34:28.:34:32.

right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist

:34:33.:34:37.

vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence

:34:38.:34:44.

people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who

:34:45.:34:50.

fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.

:34:51.:34:53.

Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who

:34:54.:35:00.

engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m

:35:01.:35:03.

still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,

:35:04.:35:10.

Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,

:35:11.:35:13.

I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,

:35:14.:35:17.

it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any

:35:18.:35:23.

young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't

:35:24.:35:28.

care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the

:35:29.:35:33.

unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who

:35:34.:35:40.

support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the

:35:41.:35:43.

campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the

:35:44.:35:47.

establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what

:35:48.:35:52.

they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your

:35:53.:35:56.

coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial

:35:57.:36:01.

control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and

:36:02.:36:06.

the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.

:36:07.:36:09.

Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.

:36:10.:36:13.

Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses

:36:14.:36:18.

if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking

:36:19.:36:23.

to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that

:36:24.:36:31.

you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.

:36:32.:36:34.

Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with

:36:35.:36:39.

the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.

:36:40.:36:46.

They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for

:36:47.:36:50.

freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So

:36:51.:36:55.

far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might

:36:56.:36:59.

happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to

:37:00.:37:02.

you later with George Galloway. Welcome to Sunday Politics South `

:37:03.:37:19.

my name's Peter Henley. On today's show the town th`t's

:37:20.:37:22.

starting to have second thotghts Thame in Oxfordshire voted xes to

:37:23.:37:25.

its neighbourhood plan sixtden months ago, but now that

:37:26.:37:30.

the planning applications are starting to go in, some reshdents

:37:31.:37:35.

are saying they didn't realhse quite First,

:37:36.:37:38.

let's meet the three politicians who'll be with me for the dtration

:37:39.:37:45.

this week ` all of them candidates for their respective parties

:37:46.:37:48.

at next year's general election Judith Bunting is standing

:37:49.:37:51.

for the Liberal Democrats in Newbury, Royston Smith

:37:52.:37:53.

for the Conservatives in Southampton Itchen and Chris Oxlade

:37:54.:38:01.

for the Labour party in Crawley We?re not quite

:38:02.:38:04.

at manifesto time and, after the coalition, promises don't h`ve quite

:38:05.:38:08.

the same sort of feel that they do Can each of you identify ond

:38:09.:38:11.

priority, one USP possibly that you as candidates will be

:38:12.:38:17.

presenting to the electoratd? One thing is standing up

:38:18.:38:22.

for local people. I think you're all going

:38:23.:38:24.

to be doing that. At the moment with the Fire Service

:38:25.:38:26.

there is huge cuts across West Sussex

:38:27.:38:32.

and is it actually standing up for local people and explaining to the

:38:33.:38:35.

county council or those in power Labour is still saying they want to

:38:36.:38:39.

reduce the deficit and a surplus possibly if they were in governmentt

:38:40.:38:44.

and yet you are going to go into the election saying the Fire Service

:38:45.:38:49.

cuts should not have happendd ` we So rather than spending millions

:38:50.:38:52.

of pounds on theatres, it is saving people's lives by increasing

:38:53.:38:58.

the funding to the Fire Service They are going to cut

:38:59.:39:01.

the theatre budget, presumably. If people prioritise and people can

:39:02.:39:03.

find savings and then they can put them into things that they think are

:39:04.:39:10.

important I don't have a problem with that, but what we hear all the

:39:11.:39:13.

time is we understand the atsterity measures in general

:39:14.:39:17.

but we don't accept them But you know I have no problem with

:39:18.:39:19.

someone who says that they think that one thing is more important

:39:20.:39:27.

than another and there are going to take one thing from one budget to

:39:28.:39:31.

another and that is fair enough I Think what this highlights hs a real

:39:32.:39:34.

problem in rural areas, which is that the way that government funding

:39:35.:39:41.

is allocated is biased towards bigger urban areas so the bhg cities

:39:42.:39:44.

get something like 52% more which I will be speaking about at

:39:45.:39:53.

conference and will be camp`igning for in Westminster if I get there,

:39:54.:39:56.

then that would alleviate this kind of problem where you have to

:39:57.:39:59.

make that horrible choice. Is that part of the issue

:40:00.:40:02.

because this funding goes b`ck to when Labour was in power as well,

:40:03.:40:05.

will you be able to say to people as Labour we will spend mord

:40:06.:40:09.

and then be able deliver? Labour is not going to

:40:10.:40:11.

borrow or spend more. It is quite clear, as I said before,

:40:12.:40:14.

it is about priority. It is local priorities

:40:15.:40:17.

that people want. And you don't mind those people

:40:18.:40:18.

go to the theatres in Crawldy.. The only theatre in West Sussex

:40:19.:40:21.

funded by the County Council was ghven ?1.5

:40:22.:40:25.

million two years ago, the cuts for That?s interesting that you have a

:40:26.:40:28.

concrete example of where you would spend the money differently and you

:40:29.:40:33.

think that might make a difference. There are all unique and thdy are

:40:34.:40:49.

all very good selling Points, but I am concentrating on being local not

:40:50.:40:54.

because I am obsessed with ht, as some people might think I al, but

:40:55.:40:58.

because people in Southampton, which is in my experience and

:40:59.:41:01.

in my years of living here It is not

:41:02.:41:04.

like the big cities elsewhere. Everyone knows everyone and they

:41:05.:41:08.

like the idea of having somdone that they know, that they have grown up

:41:09.:41:12.

with, that they have seen operating They like the idea

:41:13.:41:15.

of having someone local. You will all argue you are local

:41:16.:41:20.

but surely people are looking for someone with a broader vision than

:41:21.:41:31.

just saying I am the local person? One of the things I'm going to be

:41:32.:41:34.

fighting on is education because while we have been

:41:35.:41:39.

in coalition and the Ministdr for Some of the most socially ddmocratic

:41:40.:41:41.

policies Which has put something

:41:42.:41:46.

like 4 billion quid At the same time

:41:47.:41:51.

as getting a good strong economy. We need that money locally

:41:52.:41:55.

because our council, our local authority has had quite

:41:56.:42:00.

a bad performance across thd entire On

:42:01.:42:05.

the doorstep people will sax Liberal Democrats, David Laws in particular,

:42:06.:42:09.

should have sorted that out? Are you going to say

:42:10.:42:12.

the Conservative s stopped xou Standards are not

:42:13.:42:15.

what they should be. West Berkshire's got the worst

:42:16.:42:20.

attainment gap in the entird UK we were picked out, horriblx,

:42:21.:42:30.

by Michael Wilshaw ` head of Ofsted last year for this horrible fact

:42:31.:42:33.

and we need to be working together Do you think

:42:34.:42:37.

the pupil premium is working? Schools in West Sussex,

:42:38.:42:43.

it is hard to find where thdy are It is that honesty ? especi`lly now

:42:44.:42:47.

with the academies and Free Schools ? to find out where that money is

:42:48.:42:52.

going and making sure it is being spent in the right way, but the big

:42:53.:42:56.

problem we have in education across west Sussex is the number of people

:42:57.:42:59.

and number of kids in a class. We had to the Free School closing

:43:00.:43:03.

Crawley to the cost of ?300,000 to West Sussex which was

:43:04.:43:07.

promised to be given back and never appeared and that has now come out

:43:08.:43:11.

of our dedicated schools gr`nt. The Conservative answer

:43:12.:43:22.

seems to be Free Schools? Michael Gove seemed to talk all

:43:23.:43:24.

about that and the curricultm? Free Schools

:43:25.:43:27.

and academies giving people choice. I am happy to campaign on that `

:43:28.:43:28.

we have got one now in Southampton that is applying to be a Frde School

:43:29.:43:32.

and that will be I am sure There are gaps in the market

:43:33.:43:36.

and they can be identified and a Free School can bridgd those

:43:37.:43:39.

gaps and I think they are rdally, Going back to

:43:40.:43:43.

the pupil premium it is a great example of shroud waving from Labour

:43:44.:43:46.

councillors in Southampton about grant cuts but they don't talk

:43:47.:43:48.

about that huge investment hnto Which has been identified

:43:49.:43:51.

as a Liberal Democrat thing. It is a coalition government and we

:43:52.:43:55.

are implementing those policies I am not worried who comes tp with

:43:56.:44:03.

them, I am worried that thex have the right policies and what I don't

:44:04.:44:07.

like is hearing people shrotd waving about their budget cuts but then on

:44:08.:44:10.

the other hand ignoring that extra I don't know the details

:44:11.:44:24.

in Southampton but... OK but in general it is a

:44:25.:44:34.

difficult line to tread, isn't it? Complaining that the record

:44:35.:44:37.

of the coalition here is not enough but also saying that we would not

:44:38.:44:40.

spend more money. Again it is about priorities and

:44:41.:44:42.

investing that money and spdnding Other county councillors on all

:44:43.:44:45.

sides of the political spectrum have brought up the same issues

:44:46.:44:49.

about priorities and spending. And it is making sure that we

:44:50.:44:52.

actually hit those prioritids which Do you think that your ideas are

:44:53.:44:55.

getting a good response frol people? In each case can you see

:44:56.:45:01.

their eyes light up when you talk about the subject area

:45:02.:45:03.

which you think they care about It is what they care

:45:04.:45:07.

about not what we care about. And you think people really care

:45:08.:45:09.

about the local bit, I didn't dream this up myself,

:45:10.:45:12.

this is people who said that. You will know Peter last tile

:45:13.:45:16.

a 9,500 majority down to 200. There something in that

:45:17.:45:19.

about a local candidate, a strong local candidate,

:45:20.:45:21.

so I am happy to pursue that. I am very glad to proclaim lyself

:45:22.:45:24.

as local as well. I moved into the area two ydars ago

:45:25.:45:27.

and we have a glorious MP who lives It certainly is,

:45:28.:45:31.

and he is local to the constituency It is going to be a competition

:45:32.:45:43.

isn't it? Who is the local`ist,

:45:44.:45:47.

if that is a word. "More people planning and ldss

:45:48.:45:49.

politician planning". That's what Communities Secretary

:45:50.:45:51.

Eric Pickles promised us when he announced the launch of

:45:52.:45:53.

Neighbourhood Plans four ye`rs ago. Since then thousands of towns and

:45:54.:45:55.

villages across the country have started to develop one ` setting out

:45:56.:45:58.

where residents want new hotses Thame in Oxfordshire was ond

:45:59.:46:01.

of the first to complete thdirs and they held a referendum to ddcide yes

:46:02.:46:14.

or no to it ` but 16 months on, not everyone in the town is happy with

:46:15.:46:18.

it, as our Oxfordshire reporter Thame in South Oxfordshire,

:46:19.:46:21.

home to 11,000 people but familiar to millions more

:46:22.:46:30.

around the world as Corston in In real life

:46:31.:46:33.

Thame, the knives are not for each It came into force last Julx

:46:34.:46:37.

but there are already calls to It is all to do with this p`tch

:46:38.:46:43.

of land. We will get to that moment

:46:44.:46:46.

but first a flashback. The people of Thame overwhelmingly

:46:47.:46:50.

voted to adopt their neighbourhood plan and therefore everything

:46:51.:47:03.

in it in a referendum. It was the second place

:47:04.:47:06.

in the country to do it To the letter actually they had

:47:07.:47:13.

their period of informed consultation producing

:47:14.:47:20.

their draft plan and when it hits the formal process and came to the

:47:21.:47:24.

District Council and local planning authority, yes, the examiner when he

:47:25.:47:30.

looked at the plans said th`t their process had been exemplary

:47:31.:47:33.

and their conservation had gone over But in a new plot twist,

:47:34.:47:36.

some residents seem to have changed We stood here at this point in time

:47:37.:47:40.

and as you can see from this plan they are going to build a htge line

:47:41.:47:47.

of terraced houses down the side of the park which is down there and

:47:48.:47:50.

they're going to cuts down that tree over there put

:47:51.:47:54.

a nice big crescent over thdre. A campaign has been launched to see

:47:55.:47:56.

it taken out of the plan altogether after an application was put in

:47:57.:48:00.

for 45 homes here. There are a lot of our petitioners,

:48:01.:48:02.

the people who have signed the petition against this

:48:03.:48:05.

development, a lot of them voted yes They are saying that they dhd not

:48:06.:48:08.

understand exactly the consdquences of the neighbourhood plan

:48:09.:48:12.

when it was being drawn up. Essentially the neighbourhood plan

:48:13.:48:15.

gave planning permission to pieces of land in Thame that are completely

:48:16.:48:18.

unsuitable for development that they So what of those who voted

:48:19.:48:22.

in the referendum ` Maybe it's the right approach but

:48:23.:48:27.

I'm not happy about The Elms one. It is a very good park in the centre

:48:28.:48:37.

of town, they shouldn't build there. Do you mind me asking,

:48:38.:48:41.

because it was in the neighbourhood A lot of people didn't notice it

:48:42.:48:43.

and neither did I. You wouldn't believe that they

:48:44.:48:50.

would build on that area. Nobody can use that land, wd can?t

:48:51.:48:53.

see it and we can?t walk on it and it is just there for the frdsh air

:48:54.:48:57.

and the trees and think it would be a good place to build houses for the

:48:58.:49:04.

elderly because it is near centre. I think it is unfortunate using

:49:05.:49:08.

the green space that we havd. I think especially

:49:09.:49:11.

so close to the school the children I think they need to look

:49:12.:49:13.

into it a bit more, take our opinions into consideration

:49:14.:49:18.

maybe look somewhere else. Now, there is an argument to say

:49:19.:49:20.

if you?re going to go and vote on These plans were online, it does

:49:21.:49:24.

say 45 houses, it is quite clear. They should have made the effort but

:49:25.:49:29.

it is my belief that there should be a cooling`off period between

:49:30.:49:33.

the point at which the town plan is passed and the point at which

:49:34.:49:36.

developing work starts or planning applications are put in and that

:49:37.:49:38.

gives a period of time people can make more informed choices because

:49:39.:49:42.

other things come to light during that period of time and we've seen a

:49:43.:49:44.

lot of the information come to light that was not available

:49:45.:49:48.

during the voting period th`t is now available, to understand wh`t

:49:49.:49:51.

the full consequences Backers of neighbourhood pl`ns say

:49:52.:49:53.

you cannot do it bit by bit, You have to look at the plan

:49:54.:49:57.

as a whole. And the vote has to be whether I

:49:58.:50:00.

support the whole plan or not. You can't piecemeal take it apart

:50:01.:50:05.

because if you take one bit out then it has implications

:50:06.:50:08.

for other parts of the plan. As we are being reminded thhs week

:50:09.:50:11.

above all others, that is Its outcome is about as fin`l

:50:12.:50:14.

as the solutions meted out You are a fan

:50:15.:50:19.

of referendums aren't you? As with Scotland,

:50:20.:50:28.

once the decision is taken `nd once It is a brutal business, a xes or a

:50:29.:50:34.

no and then you're too sick to the decision as a whole, or do xou think

:50:35.:50:43.

you could go back and revisht? There is a problem from the

:50:44.:50:47.

neighbourhood plan from the start. We had one in Crawley which went to

:50:48.:50:50.

a support forums and the forum said we don't want that type

:50:51.:50:54.

of responsibility ? we don?t know exactly what the plans are or how

:50:55.:50:57.

they are going to pan out and it seems to be that usual central

:50:58.:51:02.

government coming out of thd localism act and it is great for

:51:03.:51:05.

local communities, and actu`lly it is more centralisation of rdsources

:51:06.:51:08.

and ideas rather than giving Forcing people to sign up to

:51:09.:51:12.

something then they say we did not We are doing a local plan

:51:13.:51:16.

in Southampton and that is going to process now

:51:17.:51:20.

and that has been several rdsidents association have been involved

:51:21.:51:23.

from the start`they are verx much I would be staggered if,

:51:24.:51:30.

when they come to a referendum, they then voted for it

:51:31.:51:35.

and then they later felt th`t it I would be staggered

:51:36.:51:38.

if that happened but if it does then it is still a process which is open

:51:39.:51:44.

for people to get involved hn. If there was not

:51:45.:51:47.

the neighbourhood plan option they would have what they had before

:51:48.:51:49.

and that would be someone coming along wanting to build some houses

:51:50.:51:52.

in a field and having only the planning process and thdir

:51:53.:51:55.

ability to object at that stage At least they get to ` very early

:51:56.:51:58.

on ` decide how they want their area Because they know

:51:59.:52:02.

that it has got to. But this idea of everybody being

:52:03.:52:05.

in it together? Thame really felt like that

:52:06.:52:08.

when they were voting for it It was the community making

:52:09.:52:10.

the choices. How does having

:52:11.:52:13.

a referendum actually sort the thing out so that everybody then

:52:14.:52:17.

moves forward together? in West Berkshire we have

:52:18.:52:21.

a consultation on development plans over the

:52:22.:52:28.

summer, over the summer when people What we need is consultation that is

:52:29.:52:31.

sensible and that people ard drawn I'm quite shocked that people did

:52:32.:52:36.

not understand what was going on. The public are not councillors, they

:52:37.:52:41.

are not as well`informed and it is for us to explain things to them so

:52:42.:52:48.

they understand what is going on. It is being chaired

:52:49.:52:54.

by a councillor and there are two or And resident groups,

:52:55.:52:57.

you were saying. But you are opposing some of that,

:52:58.:53:00.

the suggestions from West Bdrkshire I did not want to talk

:53:01.:53:04.

about the Scottish referendtm but people say it is just one side

:53:05.:53:16.

shouting at the other side. What we have in Newbury is

:53:17.:53:19.

a huge site which could be developed It has been there forever, dverybody

:53:20.:53:23.

is in favour of something h`ppening there, but somehow our council is

:53:24.:53:28.

not managing to get that to a stage I don't understand what the

:53:29.:53:32.

negotiations have been taking part in so they have put up greenfield

:53:33.:53:41.

sites across the district. In this situation,

:53:42.:53:44.

and there are nearly 3000 yds and less than 1000 no, it felt pretty

:53:45.:53:46.

conclusive ` now people are saying I think everyone has touched on how

:53:47.:53:50.

complicated not just the pl`nning process but anything to involve

:53:51.:53:59.

councils is incredibly complicated. If you haven't got

:54:00.:54:03.

a local plan or if you have got One of Labour's policies

:54:04.:54:06.

is this right to grow. A good thing for Crawley,

:54:07.:54:12.

I tell you. It will stop our neighbouring Tory

:54:13.:54:15.

friends dumping housing projects on the side of Crawley so that we

:54:16.:54:19.

can actually develop Crawlex It sounds like a charter for some

:54:20.:54:23.

councils to come out and fall out If you look at what we're doing in

:54:24.:54:28.

South Hampshire for example, where we are looking at housing ntmbers

:54:29.:54:35.

right across South Hampshird, we know what we need and some of those

:54:36.:54:39.

houses and a good number of those Southampton will take

:54:40.:54:43.

a good number of houses because can build high and ht can

:54:44.:54:47.

take more, same as Portsmouth. We are looking more

:54:48.:54:52.

across the boundaries than trying to It is a yes and a no, but it is

:54:53.:54:55.

also the right people at thd right We Lib Dems believe

:54:56.:55:03.

in the local people and we want to Area

:55:04.:55:09.

by area with proper consult`tion. You're talking about a colldction of

:55:10.:55:14.

different councils, you?re saying Crawley sorting out the isstes with

:55:15.:55:18.

its surrounding neighbours. There are always going

:55:19.:55:22.

to be problems. We've seen that in Thame

:55:23.:55:24.

when they have taken a decision and now they are not entirely sure

:55:25.:55:27.

that is what they wanted. And you're always going to have that

:55:28.:55:31.

because again it is looking at something generally and then

:55:32.:55:33.

when it becomes specific people get a bit worried about it

:55:34.:55:37.

and we see it all the time. I understand it, I fully understand

:55:38.:55:40.

it, but dare I use the word NIMBYs ` We need more houses,

:55:41.:55:44.

we need more affordable homds for people but we need people to be

:55:45.:55:49.

a bit more pragmatic about ht. Now,

:55:50.:55:53.

our regular roundup of the political Amid new royal baby talk,

:55:54.:55:54.

Prince William visited Oxford. He was opening a ?21 million

:55:55.:56:05.

building bringing together The new Energy Minister camd to see

:56:06.:56:12.

a Chinese firm?s solar panels She denies Britain faces

:56:13.:56:16.

an energy crisis. We're not going to have somd sort

:56:17.:56:22.

of crisis I am happy to say. Ukrainian billionaire

:56:23.:56:28.

Alexander Temerko disagrees. He wants to lay new underse`

:56:29.:56:32.

connections to French nucle`r power stations but has been told

:56:33.:56:37.

there is nowhere to plug`in. It is impossible to connect `

:56:38.:56:43.

a disaster for the country. A shortage of school meals saw some

:56:44.:56:51.

Dorset schools sending out Now urgent talks about how to

:56:52.:56:53.

deliver the free hot school meals. Is this school meals thing

:56:54.:57:07.

properly considered? It seems it happened in a htrry

:57:08.:57:11.

and here in Dorset we've got In West Berkshire

:57:12.:57:14.

our schools are doing reallx well. We've got something

:57:15.:57:21.

like 95% good delivery but ht has There has been a year since

:57:22.:57:24.

the announcement so authorities have A lot of places without kitchens

:57:25.:57:34.

outsourcing stuff, Chris? I think it has gone

:57:35.:57:38.

through really quickly. I wholeheartedly support thd idea

:57:39.:57:47.

but, when you look at West Sussex, they ripped out their kitchdns for

:57:48.:57:51.

hot school meals about ten xears ago and trying to get the kit b`ck in `

:57:52.:57:54.

even though it is microwave`ble hot meals ? that roll`out for the

:57:55.:57:57.

schools in particular, Some of the headteachers,

:57:58.:58:00.

particularly around my neck of the woods, they have been having

:58:01.:58:03.

trouble making sure the budgets .. In the long run you agree whth

:58:04.:58:09.

the idea? Who can't agree with the idda

:58:10.:58:12.

of kids having hot school dhnners? I grew up on it,

:58:13.:58:15.

we were talking about it earlier, I am laughing Peter because normally

:58:16.:58:17.

when anybody does anything the it is never being

:58:18.:58:22.

done quickly enough. We have now got my colleagud

:58:23.:58:25.

saying it is far too quick. Do schools needed disruption

:58:26.:58:28.

at this moment? Headteachers who have got to deal

:58:29.:58:30.

with new curriculum, they'vd had a fight with all this and you have

:58:31.:58:32.

got to feel sorry for them? It is all in the planning

:58:33.:58:36.

and the preparation. I don't suppose anyone in Dorset,

:58:37.:58:39.

anyone involved, or the companies supplying the school meals hntended

:58:40.:58:41.

for any of these things to happen but there are going to be some

:58:42.:58:44.

teething problems and I would rather have a really good system that has

:58:45.:58:48.

some teething problems than wait for months or years

:58:49.:58:51.

for something to come in. I would rather get

:58:52.:58:53.

on with it actually. If it is a good idea

:58:54.:58:55.

we will embrace it. The announcement was in the summer `

:58:56.:59:01.

you've got the school holid`ys and I had a meeting at the

:59:02.:59:06.

County Council, back in May it was, to decide about the contract and

:59:07.:59:10.

who was actually going to rtn the Then they haven't been paying

:59:11.:59:13.

attention ` it was announced this If you are in a County Council you

:59:14.:59:18.

will know that the detail dhd not But they were not told how

:59:19.:59:26.

it was going to happen. That is

:59:27.:59:31.

for them to work out isn't ht? In

:59:32.:59:33.

the end do you think it is something that parents will like and will it

:59:34.:59:36.

be seen as a Lib Dem policy or why It was pushed through by thd

:59:37.:59:40.

Lib Dems. It is something I will admit all

:59:41.:59:43.

sides have supported along the way. That's the Sunday Politics

:59:44.:59:47.

in the South, thanks to my guests Judith Bunting,

:59:48.:59:51.

Royston Smith and Chris Oxl`de. Next week we'll be starting

:59:52.:59:54.

our three weeks of party conference coveragd with

:59:55.:59:58.

Labour ` and getting a sensd of what the Scottish referendum restlt,

:59:59.:00:02.

whatever it is, means for us. Don't forget to keep up`to`date with

:00:03.:00:04.

southern politics by reading my blog ` there's the address

:00:05.:00:08.

at the bottom of the screen. The last time a sewer was built in

:00:09.:00:13.

London was 150 years ago, otherwise we would have a dirty River Thames.

:00:14.:00:17.

Andrew, back to you. Can

:00:18.:00:22.

the No campaign still pull it off? And even if they do is the whole

:00:23.:00:27.

of the UK now on the brink I'm joined now by John McTernan

:00:28.:00:31.

former adviser to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, Alex Bell,

:00:32.:00:48.

former Head of Policy for the SNP and Lindsay McIntosh, the

:00:49.:00:51.

Times Scottish Political Editor And I'm delighted that Tommy

:00:52.:00:53.

and George have stayed too. No fighting has broken out either.

:00:54.:00:59.

Where No fighting has broken out either.

:01:00.:01:08.

have three full days to go No fighting has broken out either.

:01:09.:01:08.

polling day. What is the state of play? I think the poll of polls is

:01:09.:01:16.

accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital is to bring the undecided voters in,

:01:17.:01:20.

and they properly have about 500,000. I think there are a lot of

:01:21.:01:25.

undecided people. I think they know which way they are leaning, but they

:01:26.:01:29.

haven't jumped. The hope of the no campaign is that they will go for

:01:30.:01:36.

the status quo on Thursday. How do you assess the state of the campaign

:01:37.:01:42.

now? The crucial thing is the big swing. The swing has come towards

:01:43.:01:46.

yes, so will the momentum carry it over the line? I will think it does,

:01:47.:01:53.

because it is an antiestablishment swell, and its people responding to

:01:54.:01:57.

standard Western as the politicians and saying that they want a new way

:01:58.:02:01.

-- Westminster politicians. I think that yes will sneak it. A referendum

:02:02.:02:07.

can be more important than a general election, and the Yes campaign have

:02:08.:02:13.

had the momentum. This was the week the momentum stopped. We started the

:02:14.:02:16.

week looking as though yes were going into the lead and then it

:02:17.:02:19.

stopped and most of the recent polls show a distinct lead for the no

:02:20.:02:23.

campaign. A distinct lead? It is one or two points. It is six in one

:02:24.:02:28.

poll, two in another, aiding another. The poll of polls is a good

:02:29.:02:33.

way of measuring, and is it statistically Nick -- nip and tuck?

:02:34.:02:38.

It is the week the momentum stopped. About a fifth of the electorate

:02:39.:02:42.

That will be a quarter of the turnout have voted already, by

:02:43.:02:46.

postal vote, and they are running very strongly towards no, so there

:02:47.:02:51.

is a whole bank of votes there. The postal votes are skewed to the over

:02:52.:02:55.

60s, and that is the demographic that the Yes campaign have had the

:02:56.:03:01.

biggest trouble with. Absolutely, the Yes campaign faced a challenge

:03:02.:03:06.

amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and always based challenge with the

:03:07.:03:11.

older voters. Trust me, I was the decision the day the civil servants

:03:12.:03:16.

made it possible for the 16 to 18-year-olds to vote, and we said

:03:17.:03:18.

there was a victory for the no campaign in that alone. The young

:03:19.:03:24.

tend to be conservative by nature. I think again that to say that the

:03:25.:03:28.

momentum has stopped when you had a 20 point lead, this is a referendum

:03:29.:03:36.

whether people will speak and they will be heard. Except for the one

:03:37.:03:40.

poll which needs a huge health warning because of the size of the

:03:41.:03:45.

sample, the momentum is unquestionably all the way through

:03:46.:03:48.

August is going in the direction of yes. It hasn't quite continue to get

:03:49.:03:55.

to the 55/45 four yes that Alex Salmond thinks will be the result. I

:03:56.:03:59.

would agree with John. This was the momentum stalled. We saw the three

:04:00.:04:05.

leaders coming up, and that kept Alex Salmond off the front pages on

:04:06.:04:10.

the television and we had a raft of economic warnings which, although

:04:11.:04:13.

they were dismissed as scaremongering, they will have had a

:04:14.:04:15.

lot of traction with voters. What does the no campaign have to do in

:04:16.:04:23.

the final three days? It has to focus on the undecided,

:04:24.:04:28.

relentlessly. It has to do stick to the question of risk and keep

:04:29.:04:31.

pushing back on Alex Salmond to say it doesn't matter if the banks

:04:32.:04:34.

leave, it will all be all right on the night. The huge question amongst

:04:35.:04:38.

the undecided voters is about the economy. It is about jobs and

:04:39.:04:44.

currency, about business. That risk is what will crystallise in the

:04:45.:04:47.

ballot box on Thursday and that has to be the focus. What does the Yes

:04:48.:04:52.

campaign have to do? It has to drive home that the swing to the Yes

:04:53.:04:56.

campaign is motivated by people who want a different politics. They have

:04:57.:05:00.

decided amongst themselves that they want to change Scotland. The

:05:01.:05:02.

unfortunate thing is, even though the no campaign has had the chance

:05:03.:05:08.

to put up after proposals, they have failed. The Scottish people want

:05:09.:05:11.

their powers were a purpose and they say that only the Yes campaign can

:05:12.:05:16.

deliver that. There will be two days of relentless campaigning from

:05:17.:05:19.

today, Monday and Tuesday, then the media, the newspapers, including

:05:20.:05:22.

your own, will come out with the final poll, the ones that will be

:05:23.:05:28.

the closest to the day that the Scots actually go and vote. I think

:05:29.:05:33.

we will see more polling this week, but what is interesting is the

:05:34.:05:35.

extent to which the pollsters are picking up what is going on in the

:05:36.:05:39.

street. We know we have a huge number of voters who have never

:05:40.:05:42.

voted before and are not engage with politics, so what will they do? The

:05:43.:05:48.

third candidate in the election if I can would in this way, are the

:05:49.:05:52.

polls. They might have a lot of questions to answer on Friday

:05:53.:05:55.

morning. We were talking earlier with George and Tommy about the

:05:56.:05:58.

Labour Party's consequences in all of this. Gordon Brown, of course,

:05:59.:06:04.

has had a bit of a second coming as a result of this referendum. I just

:06:05.:06:08.

want to play a clip of Gordon Brown during the campaign and get a

:06:09.:06:12.

reaction. And I say this to Alex Salmond himself. Up until today I am

:06:13.:06:21.

outside front line politics. If he continues to peddle this deception,

:06:22.:06:24.

that the Scottish Parliament under his leadership, and he cannot do

:06:25.:06:29.

anything to improve the health service until he has a separate

:06:30.:06:36.

state, then I will want to join Joe Hanlon want in and securing the

:06:37.:06:39.

return of a Labour government as quickly as possible -- Johann

:06:40.:06:47.

Lamont. That was seen by some people as Gordon Brown implying he might

:06:48.:06:50.

stand for the Scottish Parliament. Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon

:06:51.:06:53.

Brown the saviour of Scottish Labour? I did a double black the

:06:54.:07:00.

other night -- double act with him the other night, and I must say he

:07:01.:07:03.

was a big beast all over again. He crossed the stage Meli dealt with

:07:04.:07:09.

the audience brilliantly. He has a certain presence, Gordon Brown, but

:07:10.:07:13.

he would really have to reinvent himself quite considerably. He is

:07:14.:07:19.

capable of doing, but the man who was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton,

:07:20.:07:24.

who pulled together the original red paper on Scotland, he would have to

:07:25.:07:28.

be that Gordon Brown rather than the Gordon Brown of some more melancholy

:07:29.:07:32.

events later. Tommy, you have both been critical of the state of the

:07:33.:07:35.

Scottish Labour Party. Rather than looking to Gordon Brown, which might

:07:36.:07:39.

be an interim solution, doesn't Scottish Labour have to find a new

:07:40.:07:43.

generation of people to reignite it? What George and I are agreed on and

:07:44.:07:47.

you have to remember this question of independence see us disagreeing

:07:48.:07:52.

passionately, and in most other things we find ourselves in

:07:53.:07:56.

agreement, one thing is clear, Scottish Labour is finished. They

:07:57.:07:59.

have lost the heart and soul of Scotland. The fact that we are

:08:00.:08:06.

discussing with four days to go an independence referendum that is neck

:08:07.:08:11.

and neck, Labour have failed miserably, absolutely miserably

:08:12.:08:13.

because they have given up everything they stood for. The SNP

:08:14.:08:18.

has picked it up. They have just taken on the bank -- mantle of a

:08:19.:08:21.

left of centre party and are picking up support. Gordon and the rest in

:08:22.:08:26.

my opinion, they represent the past. The yes vote on the Yes campaign

:08:27.:08:29.

represents the future. What do you say to that? There is nothing

:08:30.:08:35.

socialist about an SNP that wants to cut business tax by 3% in the pan.

:08:36.:08:40.

There is nothing socialist about an SNP destroying further education so

:08:41.:08:42.

they can give middle-class people free education. The Labour Party is

:08:43.:08:48.

alive and kicking. You can see if it is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with

:08:49.:08:54.

the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to use this word, but they are kind of

:08:55.:08:58.

privatised from the Scottish Labour Party. They have rode their own

:08:59.:09:03.

fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump because official Scottish Labour did

:09:04.:09:06.

not want him leading their campaign. Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off

:09:07.:09:11.

the stage until it became so critical that he had to be brought

:09:12.:09:17.

back. I agree with John, the SNP talks left but acts right. That is

:09:18.:09:24.

before they get state powers. That is what is exciting about the

:09:25.:09:27.

referendum, it's not about the SNP, it's about the people deciding. What

:09:28.:09:31.

we have heard so far in the referendum campaign is that there is

:09:32.:09:34.

a desperate yearning in the electorate for real politics,

:09:35.:09:37.

purposeful politics and for the people to be represented. It is

:09:38.:09:40.

probably to the eternal shame of labour that they gave up that role

:09:41.:09:45.

and other people are now taking it upon themselves. How would you

:09:46.:09:48.

assess the state of the Labour Party? The problem is that it was

:09:49.:09:53.

demolished by the SNP in 2011 and what they should have done since

:09:54.:09:56.

then and in other circumstances is take a real look within themselves

:09:57.:10:00.

and brought forward new talent and policies and watch out what they

:10:01.:10:03.

stood for. They've been unable to do that because they are locked in a

:10:04.:10:10.

constitutional row. It is the plan of the Nationalists to fight the

:10:11.:10:14.

first Scottish general election as an independent nation as a

:10:15.:10:16.

nationalist party with its own programme. You don't all go your own

:10:17.:10:21.

way. Why don't you do that? You have more on your main reason to be, so

:10:22.:10:25.

why not go, left, right and centre question you are presuming you don't

:10:26.:10:31.

go the one-way. I do not see the function of the SNP after the yes

:10:32.:10:34.

vote. I think it is clear that there is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an

:10:35.:10:39.

SNP which attracts votes from the left and that is the one for me

:10:40.:10:42.

Whether that is called the SNP or something else, I don't know. I

:10:43.:10:45.

think the assumption that we are going into a mirror of old politics

:10:46.:10:50.

in a new world is just fundamentally flawed. That is interesting. Let's

:10:51.:10:58.

just bring in the English dimensional. In many ways, England

:10:59.:11:01.

has not spoken in this referendum campaign. Whether it is yes or no,

:11:02.:11:06.

it will, and to give you a flavour of what some in England might be

:11:07.:11:10.

thinking was saying, here is a clip from John Redwood. We are fed up

:11:11.:11:15.

with this lopsided devolution, this unfair devolution. Scotland gets

:11:16.:11:19.

first-class Devolution, Wales gets second-class devolution and England

:11:20.:11:22.

gets nothing. If Wales wants the same as us, they should have it and

:11:23.:11:26.

then there would be commonality so we could discuss and decide in our

:11:27.:11:30.

own countries, in our own assemblies in Parliament, all those things that

:11:31.:11:37.

are devolved. George, it was clear that if Scotland voted yes for

:11:38.:11:40.

independence it has huge implications for England than the

:11:41.:11:44.

UK, but it's also clear particularly after Gordon Brown's intervention,

:11:45.:11:48.

even if it is no, it has huge applications. You are, I suggest,

:11:49.:11:52.

agreeing with John Redwood that there should be an English boys It

:11:53.:11:58.

would be a step too far for me to agree with him -- English voice I

:11:59.:12:02.

appreciate I might have gone out on a limb. He is the voice of Mars the

:12:03.:12:09.

Balkan from Mars. My own constituents in Bradford are asking,

:12:10.:12:13.

what about us? All these things being done, all the extra mile is

:12:14.:12:17.

being travel to Scotland, what about us? Labour would be well advised to

:12:18.:12:22.

adjust quickly on this so that the John Redwood types do not steal the

:12:23.:12:28.

show. England has yes to use -- yet to speak. It's interesting when you

:12:29.:12:32.

hear a Labour backbencher in Scotland talk about a command paper.

:12:33.:12:39.

He is not in government. Gordon Brown is going round Scotland

:12:40.:12:42.

promising things and he has absolutely no chance of delivering

:12:43.:12:46.

them. The MPs in England will say, hey, what are you talking about We

:12:47.:12:50.

have never been discussed with that? We have not agreed with that. The

:12:51.:12:55.

only way people in Scotland will get the powers they deserve is by voting

:12:56.:12:59.

yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you think it is 60/40. I will stick with

:13:00.:13:04.

it, because we have an unprecedented election. 97% of Scotland is

:13:05.:13:09.

registered to vote. The working class will vote in numbers never

:13:10.:13:15.

voted before. George? 55/45 for our side. And if there is a rogue poll,

:13:16.:13:22.

the tek Levesley polled -- technically flawed poll, which

:13:23.:13:26.

should not be published because it is so flawed, then we would be

:13:27.:13:29.

stretching towards what I am predicting already. I think in the

:13:30.:13:32.

last few days we will reach that. Come on. If the no campaign can get

:13:33.:13:37.

the silent majority out, they will edge it. You think they will win,

:13:38.:13:44.

but how much? They cannot give up in a second, a moment or a mile. It is

:13:45.:13:50.

that close. It will be won by the passionate view. I will go for a

:13:51.:13:57.

narrow yes victory. I'm the George, 53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. --

:13:58.:14:04.

I am with George. I will leave you to argue about that later. Thank you

:14:05.:14:07.

for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.

:14:08.:14:10.

That's all from us today in Scotland.

:14:11.:14:11.

Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage

:14:12.:14:14.

of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.

:14:15.:14:16.

On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be

:14:17.:14:20.

in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm

:14:21.:14:23.

on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

:14:24.:14:27.

And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour

:14:28.:14:30.

Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the

:14:31.:14:37.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:38.:14:43.

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