27/05/2012 Sunday Politics Wales

Hello I'm Aled ap Dafydd and on the Sunday Politics Wales.

Repetitive, formally and lacking in impact. That is the damning verdict

of debates and the National Assembly. It is not the views of

people who want to close the place down but rather the opinion of 22

Assembly Members. We will discuss the impact of Assembly proceedings.

And to electrify are not to electrify? Until a business case is

made to upgrade the line between Cardiff and Swansea, that seems to

remain the question's. Here to guide us through these and

many more topics I am joined by Kevin Brennan the Labour MP for

Cardiff West, and Helen Mary Jones, Knowing the SNP and how good are

and knowing that their country and tactics to use, if they think this

is the right time to watch than it is. I thought it was a measured and

balanced view. It was about how -- what sort of country and what kind

of station doesn't want to be. -- nation. That hit it one that will

resonate with the Scottish people. There is a case to be made and an

opposing case. And the next 18 months will be the time to make it.

I was looking at the list of the people there. This is more than

just Alex Salmond's pet project. is about tactics. There will be a

single question about the independence. Sean Connery does not

even live in Scotland. That is how much she is committed to Scotland.

It will be an interesting debate and Alastair Darling put a case

very well for those of us who want to keep the United Kingdom together.

I am sure we will follow at very closely over the following months.

Assembly proceedings follow repetitive and formerly former lap

and debates or lack impact. That is the view of Assembly Members newly

elected last year in a private report obtained by Sunday Politics.

The document also suggests remedies for the problems, including ways of

introducing more topical exchanges. But one at Conservative Assembly

Member dollars programme the Assembly chamber resembles an

European Union Committee Room and needs to be redesigned to look like

a Parliament. It seems many of the Assembly

members newly elected came down to earth with a bit of a bump when

they took their seats in the Assembly met chamber. Their verdict

on a Wednesday afternoon session here is damning. It is caned in

this report obtained by Sunday Politics. The chair of the

committee asked all but one of the 23 members newly elected in 2011

what they made of their first year. The Express...

They found the format repetitive and formulaic. The topics lacked

variety. Debates lacked impact and the Said Business should be more

topical. It is Wednesday afternoon and as

per the agenda, their Health Secretary is taking questions.

Later on the chief adviser to the and Government is taking questions

as well. And at the very end of the day, there is a short debate on

child asylum seekers. Not a typical Wednesday, perhaps.

The main job of any legislator is to pass legislation. You have had

some of these rather fatuous, NT debates where they go through the

motions, going through the same subjects, time and time again.

Welsh Government business on the chamber is on Tuesday, mainly a

matter for Ministers. Suggestions were making Wednesday more or

interesting. It will encourage more discussion on ideas for laws. There

are also proposals for more topical lotions, statements and questions.

I think the big innovation is the idea breaking up the format so it

is not exactly the same every week and every moment. Obviously it is

at the same every week. As I say, at the moment we have a problem

with their importance ever makes. We do not seem to relate to the

problems that have been identified. In some cases it makes them worse.

Previously MPs, Julie Morgan and Simon Thomas became Assembly

Members last year. Simon Thomas was more topicality but he is concerned

that a dedicated hour each week to use by parties could be lost.

had three debates and council tax. Three looks like we're milking is

in power. We have to look at how we use our time wisely and structure

debates in a slightly more snappy way. That is something we are

discussing with an Plaid Cymru. We need to be cautious about losing a

whole opposition time. Wednesday debates are very

repetitive. Debates are usually on party lines which are less

interesting to the public and to us because you know what people are

going to see a lot of the time. It would be good to have summed

debates Witcher more important to people where you are exposing their

issues and tried to come forward with solutions and the app joke

debate. Could Angela Burns and Assembly Members since 2007 once

more radical change. I would like a chamber relayed in a different way.

We look like a committee room from the European Union which way -- and

not a Parliament which we are today. There is only 60 of us which in

itself is not an issue. If you will disappear for a few hours in the

afternoon, it is difficult to get that debate. The Presiding Officer

declined to be interviewed. statement from the commission which

looks after Assembly staff services and property says she wants more

opportunity for members to hold a Government to account and raised

issues that matter to their constituents. The statement says

the report suggests options to make Wednesday afternoon sessions even

more effective in addition to changing already made. It added

that Rosemary Butler was listening on a continuous basis to the views

of members about how plenary business can be improved.

Legislators of the world are asking themselves how they can liven up

their sessions and make a more interesting to voters. This report

is intended to be discussed within the groups and the Assembly to see

if politicians see some merit in this prescription for livening up

the Wednesday afternoons. With a former Assembly Member and

that MP here we might get some views on that.

You have sat on the Assembly from several years. Reading between the

lines it sounds as if the complaint is that things are boring. Is that

a true reflection of how things are? It depends what you want. If

you want entertainment, go to the pictures. This is Government. Most

Parliament sit-in rounds. I think looking at it from the outside, I

think Wednesday afternoons, I can see why members feel they could do

more with them. That opposition space which is precious, but if you

have got one party after another bringing forward the same debate

week after week, you know what the other parties are going to say, it

will not change the Government's wind and anything, and using the

committee process more into the chamber, I am attracted by this

idea of chairs and committees giving statements about why they're

under taking an inquiry. You say that you particularly don't want

entertainment like you do want impact. That is lacking according

to this report. He also what Assembly Members to be sitting in

the chamber, which to be Frankcom some Wednesday afternoons when it

comes to the close of play, it is quite empty. Some practical things

like putting after no debate which would not be long to do. But I

think there are two separate issues. Is it making an impact? And is at a

good performance? I think those are often different. If they won more

topicality, the presiding officers could change that straightaway by

responding positively for questions. If you put those in place,

Ministers would answer those urgent questions and we would have that

element of topicality. There are things that can be done with the

current structures which could make it more topical and debatable.

of the positives was that it was different to Westminster. Assembly

Members called each other by their first names. You see Assembly

Members tapping away. Looking back on reflection, was that a wise

thing? A first of all, it is not up to me to tell the Assembly had to

run their business. I can express up an opinion about them. I think

the Assembly got caught in the 20th century. Helen is wrong, we are not

a Victorian parlour, this is medieval. We had these fix

computers at the desk, funnily enough in Westminster, up we can

use iPad and mobile devices without the constraint of having the

keyboard in front of you at the desk. That is what a modern world

is much more like. I have advocated in Westminster to go further and

have a Twitter ft. So we can engage with the public during the course

of our debates. Is it cosmetic? think it is partly cosmetic but

there is a point about our proceedings, whatever political

forum we're in Bolton, to be engaging. It is not about

entertainment but it is to be entertaining for the public. I find

that the fact that because someone by their first they mix it personal.

And I think people feel that can be discourteous. One of the problems

according to some is that there is a lack of Government work to

scrutinise at the moment and that is holding the Assembly back.

think there is going to be a lot of legislation coming down the

pipeline. The standard assemblage has acquired its power before the

election. The worst thing you could do as a Government is drop a badly

prepared built into the process. You should really scrutinise it

properly in draft form first. think that is the key thing. When

the opposition parties have got serious business to scrutinise,

when you get the legislation coming through, I hear what Kevin Brennan

says, you do not want that change, the amount of information coming

through the Government is then. It is frustrating looking at -- from

the outside not seen those powers being used. When there opposition

powers have got that information, they can use it to impact changes.

That first-name stuff, it is nothing -- something I never did. I

think it risks excluding the public. I always wanted to be called by my

full name and always used other people's full name. In the chamber

where things the to be more formal. The Welsh secretary, Cheryl Gillan,

wants to see a business case for the electrification of the main

Paddington-Swansea railway line. The UK Government announced plans

to electrify the line as far as Cardiff last year. But the Welsh

Government wants to -- wants it to go further west to Swansea and into

the valleys. Mrs Gillan said she was pressing the case for Swansea,

but she won that you cannot just go ahead on a whim. Our reporter,

Tomos Livingstone, has been talking to Iestyn Davies from the

Federation of Small businesses who told them Swansea was in danger of

being cut off without electrification.

By extending the railway, it brings Swansea further to the east and

make it easier to get to. Things like electrification could be a

good thing. We have good but communication is important. We have

a real definable economic Area at that in a tribute to economic

growth. How confident are you that this will go ahead. We are hopeful

that the rationale has been made. But we are also confident that we

will look in -- look favourably at electrifying the valleys as well.

How easy will it be to drop that business case? Were you being

lobbied hard by business for this line to be electrified as far as

Swansea? Yes, it was something that was being considered. Cheryl Gillan

has to come up with a better argument. There must be a business

case for this, but billions of pounds are being spent on CrossRail

in London. A huge tunnel has been created through her own

constituency for cosmetic reasons because of the high-speed rail to

project. She needs to be arguing in Government and batting for Wales

and saying we must extend electrification to Swansea. We must

have electrification in the valleys of we are to create a fit for

purpose transport systems or our economy can thrive and the long-

term. The Tottenham Court Road redevelopment, I think that cost

should be matched. It is more complicated than that. It is about

doing their economic benefits of the current -- electrification of

railways to poorer communities. But I think the Secretary of State is

being disingenuous here are pulling a bit of a fast one. It is easy to

make the business case which the previous Government had been

beginning to do for the electrification all the way from

London to Swansea. It is more difficult to make a hard business

case from Cardiff to Swansea. I think what she is doing issues are

going up back into this core work unfairly because it is going to be

hard to make a pure economic business case just for that stretch.

You need to look at a whole stretch. Philip Hammond said that there

wasn't the user mass in terms of how many people were using the

railway between Cardiff and Swansea. You only had one train per hour at

off-peak times. There is just not the need for it. The danger could

be the you are going to have a private railway for one big

business. I think the danger in a way is the opposite. That if you

like if you upgrade and electrified the line as far as Cardiff then you

start getting any economic desert to the west of Cardiff. That is the

real problem. Although there trains run one per hour and there is a

drop of passengers after Cardiff, if you are going to bring economic

prosperity to all four corners of the United Kingdom, you have to be

looking at extending electrification to places like

Swansea so we can bring the economic benefits ready across the

country. Time for a quick look back at that

political stories which make the headlines last week.

Chris Evans as the Prime Minister of Wales would lose weight -- 800

of 1,600 police officers and the next three years. Mr Cameron said

there had to be a reduction in police budgets.

The Welsh Government announced plans to spend three and have

billion pounds on health, housing, and transfer schemes or the next

three years. The Finance Minister rejected opposition claims that the

investment plan was repackaging old announcements.

Cheryl Gillan give a statement on the UK Government's plans for the

year ahead. And Karen Jones warned that changes to welfare benefits

could Het Wales hard. -- Carwyn Jones.

The First Minister and Welsh secretary were in Monmouth to greet

the Olympic torch as it came to Wales.

A final sprint for us. Something which did feature in the news was

the green paper on changing the electrical system for the National

Assembly. Are you in favour of having less constituencies and 30

members are elected on the list? -- electoral system. That should be

made in Wales. It should not be ambles from outside. I could see

the argument for having a different pattern of constituencies for

Assembly Members to MPs. Or we would prefer if we're going to

change the system caused -- les go to a single proportional vote which

will link constituencies but also bills and the element of

proportionality. What would be wrong is for that to be imposed by

Westminster. There is a proposal to change the existing system. That

seems reasonable. What has happened in Westminster is the

disenfranchise anybody who's not the register make it more difficult

to register the board. I would not hold your breath that the changes

that are being proposed and Westminster are going to get

through in the end because there is some evidence that MIB in the