12/05/2013 Sunday Politics Wales

bovine TB at English universities, is there a call for use Dom at 12

Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1871 seconds

about to kick off a Civil War on the subject?

A call for more effort to directing and harnessing Welsh research to

address the problem of bovine TB. Joining me throughout today's

programme, to MPs. Roger Williams and Nick morning. First, the main

story. Europe. Downing Street is saying that ministers will be guided

to abstain if there is a Commons vote on EU referendum. Later this

week, around 100 Tory backbenchers or going to sign saying that they

are concerned that the Queen's speech did not contain a reference.

I mentioned 100 backbenchers there, rebels, are you one of them?

probably will be. I am a signatory to the letter which is the basis

upon this amendment. I would not describe myself as a rebel. I would

argue this is the main stay of the Conservative party. What message

does that give to the Prime Minister? He was minded to let

ministers and other members of the Government to have a free vote on

this. He has changed his mind. What does that say on his leader

leadership? I'm not sure that's the case. What I am seeing is the party

trying to make clear a message that we do need the referendum. That

referendum and the timetable of 2017 is something I support. I feel that

in this day and age, there is a lack of trust in politics and

politicians. We need to try and legislate now in order to make sure

that a gate is set for 2017. I think this is necessary to make sure to

show that we are serious. I heard the Education Secretary, Michael

Gove, speaking this morning. He said that would not be possible because

you are in a coalition. It is not in the Coalition Agreement. That may be

the case. The Liberal Democrat Hardy did have a promise of a referendum.

I know that Nick Clegg has broken one of his main promises in that

referendum but -- in that manifesto but they must be put to the test. If

we promise it referendum and decided to legislate for it in 2017? --

2017, I think the Liberals should know their manifesto and it is

something that supports their cause. There is no history of Conservative

MPs going against the Queen's speech, an against it, do you think

this is worth going into the history books for? I think it is certainly

an important issue. Personally, is the Prime Minister did manage to get

some significant concessions then I would be putting to remain within

the European Union. I do feel that we need to lance the boil. This

issue has been a plague on politics for 20 years, I would argue. It is

about time that we committed ourselves to a referendum so that

the people of Wales and the United Kingdom can make a decision as to

whether they want to stay within a reform European Union or whether to

turn their backs on the institution. My own view is a reformed European

Union is something which is worth working towards and aspiring to but

we need to give the people of this country able to give the people of

this country a vote on the issue. There is a danger, isn't there, that

you are seen as more of a moderate backbencher, is there not a danger

that that you will be dragged along with those who want out of the EU at

all costs? If I am a moderate Euro-sceptics and I am happy to take

that description. I have altered in an instant -- against an increase in

the Euro budget. Whether you are in favour or against, you have to

acknowledge that the people of the United Kingdom feel that they have a

right to vote on this. My own preference would be able to 2017,

after renegotiation. We need to address that lack in trust in

politicians of all parties. By trying to legislate now for a

referendum, we would be telling the people of Wales and the rest of the

country that we are serious about having a referendum in 2017. Don't

go anywhere. I would bring to do this. -- I am going to bring in a

studio guests. What you say to that that and a note referendum was

included in your manifesto? First Hull, can I say that this amendment

seems to be a tactical amendment. It is not going to have any particular

impact. It might have an impact on the internal workings of the

Conservative party. That is their own business. We both voted for a

Conservative legislation that committed the UK to having a

referendum if there was a fundamental reform of the European

Union in and the change in the treaty. That is what was in the

Liberal Democrat manifesto. That, in effect, would be an in-out

referendum. I want to see the EU reformed. There is lots to be done.

I want to see the issue of a free, open, single market is retained and

been able to do those things cross-border food Ed Miliband does

not need a -- want a referendum. To you. He described himself as the

mainstream over this but isn't. He is one of the 70 of 300 Conservative

MPs that or a minority. What is going on is that they're talking

about Europe because their anti-European. I don't think they

properly understand the difficulty this could cause for the British

economy if we talk about coming out now. You're shaking your head.

Certainly, I find that script and inaccurate. I think the main view is

rebuffed the Euro-sceptic but any pragmatic manner. Most of us would

want to remain within the European Union but recognise the need for

reform. There is something odd about having a party aspiring, such as the

Labour Party, denying the rights of this Government ace on the matter.

We think of having a referendum in 2017 would mean that we would be

seeing to companies who want to invest in the country that the UK is

going to be closed for business for the four years. Holding a referendum

doesn't mean that you want to come out, does it? What it says is the

country doesn't know where it is going. If you earn international

business that wants to get into the largest trading work it in the

world, you want to make sure you make investments for the long-term.

This indecision, what is effectively an emotional breakdown in the

Conservative party, is getting in the way of good government and

against the interest of the country. They have to let this go. It is in

labour's interest for them not to let it go, is it not? We think about

the country's best national interest. It is sometimes said that

if you are in favour of membership of the European Union, albeit with

reform, then you must be against a referendum. That is not the case, as

far as I'm concerned. We need to reset the agenda as far as the EU is

concerned. Now, for a generation. We need to get on with that, once the

poison and do the stuff. Could I give an example of why it is so

important to keep the single market? 40% of the lamb we produce

is export it to the EU. The French farmers would like nothing better

than to have the opportunity to put up a barrier against Welsh lamb.

That is something that we have to avoid or all of the rural areas in

Wales and across the United Kingdom. Briefly. European reform is

important. It is not just because of the Eurozone and the difficulties

they are facing but primarily, they are facing an issue of austerity. We

need to get our economy going. In the valleys, we have had tremendous

European investment to get the steelworks site changed. And your

party wants to cut the European budget? We want to get transport

infrastructure, including European support. That is the important

thing. Get other -- Guto Bebb, how do you see this going? Do you think

the Speaker will introduce this and get the opportunity to vote? I can

speak in front the half of the Speaker but if there is an

opportunity to vote, and Conservative backbenchers board,

according to their conscience, then I think there will be a significant

vote in favour of this amendment. I subscribed to the point that it is a

strong argument to be made about the benefits Wales is derived from the

EU but that argument should be had with the people of Wales and the UK

as part of it, not excluded. final question. You are a member of

the 1922 committee, a powerful backbench Conservative committee,

has there been any discussion about the leadership of the Prime

Minister? Not in terms of leadership. There has been a lot of

discussion about the best way forward with EU but not in relation

to the Prime Minister. Thank you. A leading scientist is calling on

the Government to organise and fund Wales -based research into bovine

TB. This is to find a solution to the problem that has dramatically

increased here over the last 20 years. Ministers are committed to

eradicating the disease of the most recent figures and showcases our

increasing. This map shows the isolated pockets

This map shows the isolated pockets where TB and cattle was reported in

This map shows the isolated pockets where TB and 23 years later, the

where TB and 23 years later, the disease was prevalent in large parts

disease was prevalent in large disease was prevalent in large

In 1986, there were Recently, that has gone up to 300 cases across the

whole region. It has increased dramatically.

An outbreak of bovine TB is to matter for reform. Cattle have to be

destroyed and there are restrictions on the movement of others. Professor

Les Bailey and his team at Cardiff University are investigating whether

natural products, including could be used to eradicate the disease.

about bringing people together and see if we have enough to achieve the

aim in Wales. If we do, we have to work it with a disappointing --

funding and supporting it. The Welsh Government says the budget is

jointly held between England and Wales and it is involved in

administering it. Ministers change their bovine TB policy. Previous,

the one-day badger cull because many blame the animals for spreading the

disease. We have been supporting a call for many years and support the

coal that is going on in England and that is going to go on later on this

year. We welcome the coal that was planned for the area because there

is a high level of disease. -- the cult.

Here in Pembrokeshire, the Welsh Government is in the second year of

a five-year agger vaccination programme. Investors say it as part

of their efforts to eradicate bovine TB in Wales. The conservation group

The Wildlife Trust supports the vaccination of badgers and has

backed calls for further research. The Welsh Government have been very

good about being science lead. They are looking at the evidence that has

been presented. We would certainly support any research that looked at

alternatives, novel approaches. There is always benefit in doing

that. The total number of animals slaughtered in Wales because of

bovine TB rose from 8068 in 2011 to 9308 in 2012. The Welsh Government

estimated that almost �30 million was paid to farmers in compensation

in 2011. We really do appreciate the impact that it is having on farm

businesses. In fact, as an organisation, we have cattle. We

really do understand is that the situation has caused. The trouble is

that Colin has been so firmly put as the alternative. -- that killing. It

doesn't solve the situation. increasing number of cases should be

a wake-up call that the disease is are Wales, some say. Others say that

the policy of vaccinating badgers won't work and only the badger mass

kill woodwork. They say there is no need for research -- the Government

say there is no need for research because they badgers have been

proven to be specific. It doesn't need to be washed Civic. There is

very little difference between the cell West of England, Ireland and

Wales. Therefore, that research is already there, the science is

already there. What we feel is to get on and reduce badger numbers.

They wish -- the Welsh Government said there had been no approach

about Wales only research. Roger Williams, we had a hint from

Brian about the exposure to TB here in Wales. You represent a new role

-- a rural constituency. This might not have been in the headlines for a

while but is still here, isn't it? got a letter last Friday to say that

a neighbouring farm had got the actors and we were having to be

tested. I spend a lot of time looking at the science around us and

trying to eradicate it. I really do value research that is done. This is

the first time I have heard of this particular avenue. I just wonder

whether we should be investing in that immediately when that is so

much work to be done on epidemiology and vaccines. Everybody would like

to eradicate this without killing badgers but we just don't have the

tools in the box at the moment. We need to research. At the moment, it

is necessary. We will examine that later. Does it matter where research

to give place? There is some research taking on Cardiff at those

other going on in England. Doesn't matter when it happens? The Welsh

Government say they have members in all of the Project board during the

research. I'm not sure it does. If we do have distinct problems in

Wales than that would deserve research especially here. I'm not

sure that we do. I think we should get on with it. The key thing, I

think, is getting a vaccine done sooner rather than later. If there

are any extra resources, and it is very difficult to get that now with

austerity, then it should be invested in getting the vaccine as

soon as possible. The Welsh Government favoured area killed. It

is in the second year of a five-year vaccination programme. Do you

support that decision to turn away from killing the badgers? You've got

to do the research. Good decision-making needs good data. We

are only two years into a five-year programme. Let's see it through and

go through it in as much detail as possible and then come out with good

decision-making. You don't favour killing the badgers? Not now.

moment, I think there is no other option. Everybody talks about the

new vaccine, but it is the BCG vaccine which I had is a child and

was developed in 1910. There is no new vaccine. At the moment, the

European Union says they could not use this commercially on farms for

another ten years. What do we do in the meantime? A lot of the research

would indicate that you do get real benefits if you kill and hotspots

where there are a large number of infected badgers. The pilot projects

going on in England should proceed. We should reflect on the results

that we get from that. We are two years into the five-year programme.

The Wildlife Trust Now For The Latest Travel News: Said We Had To

Wait Five Years To See The Results. That Is A Long Time Though, Isn't

It? It Is. I Have Nothing Against Vaccination. In fact, I supported.

It is a long way away from vaccinating cattle. Your vaccinating

badgers, a different thing. The real control will have when we have a

vaccine that we can use in commercial cattle on farms. We are

ten years away from that. Nick Smith, in terms of this, what do

people write you about? Farmers to contact me but it is usually around

anti-social behaviour and stealing a farm gate. I have lots of animals --

animal lists to who want to see badgers. They're against this. They

are one of the biggest bits of my postbag. We will leave it there for

now. Time for a quick look back at some of the political stories of the

new laws in the Queen's speech showed the Coalition government's

determination to reward hard work and support business. He said

changes to our Assembly members are elected would offer more choice to

candidates. Labour's Owen Smith described plans to allow plans to go

stand in both constituencies and regional lists as a lucky loser's

bill. Labour's the Anglesey councillors formed a coalition with

independents to run the council. They said the 14 independents had a

mandate to rule because they won the largest portion of the vote. Home

Secretary Theresa May announced that they just let panel would re-examine

the matter -- the murder of a private investigator. He was found

in a south London pub car park with an axe in his head in 1987. Despite

six police investigations, nobody has been convicted of the killing.

Rosemary Butler, the Presiding Officer of Newport, congratulated

Newport County as they returned to the football league after 25 years.

Roger Williams, looking back on the past week there, we heard about the

Daniel Morgan case and the decision by the Home Secretary to reopen it.

You have worked very closely with the family. What is going to happen

next? I have been working with them ever since I got elected. It has

been a long, hard process. They have shown tremendous commitment and, at

last, we have a Secretary of State who has decided to have a public

inquiry. That will reveal the corruption and incompetence of the

Metropolitan Police in this matter. There will also be feeding across to

the Leveson Inquiry as well because of the police and media involvement.

What are the family thing about this decision from Theresa May? Why do

you think it is happening now? a meeting with Theresa May and the

family and be so impressed the Home Secretary with their commitment and

their tenacity over this, over 26 years, that she felt that she had to

help them. I take my hat off to her and commend her on the action that

she has taken. It has been described as a Hillsborough style inquiry. We

all know what happened during that inquiry. Are you very much looking

forward to seeing the results of this? Very much though. There have

been at least four inquiries that have either been completely

incompetent or, as the worst, corrupt. We need to get that out

into the open. There are lessons to be learned. These are issues that

still involve police apologies and we must make sure that no family --

still involve police authorities, no family should have to put up with us

again. Nick Smith, you're looking to get a ten minute rule Bill

introduced in a subject that you have reason Prime Minister's

Questions. It is about the alleged neglect of residents in care homes

in South Wales. It was an operation which has been conducted by Gwent

Police. Sadly the case was left on the table because one of the doctors

involved in it was too unwell. It is an important topic. The families of

the residents deserve justice and I am going to keep up the campaign to

try to make sure that we have a public inquiry but also to change

the law. There is going to be a social care dog, they sold come

around very often. I'm going to try and make sure that we get that

amendment put in that. -- asocial kerb ill. If there are issues of

neglect, they can be prosecuted by the authorities. You need to get the

backing of your party? The Labour frontbench are supportive of it as

our surgeon conservatives. When I raised this, a couple of weeks ago,

there was a hushed response in the House. They recognise that,

unfortunately, lots of issues of neglect of old people. Operation

Jasmine was the biggest investigation of care homes. It is

unfortunately an ongoing issue. Final word. We saw David Jones they

in the package. He was talking about dual candidacy. Do you support it?

Yes. I had hoped that in the Queen's speech there may be another

indication about how the Government was going to take forward some of

the recommendations. The Government is going to reply to that report

very shortly. We hope that within the compass of that, there may be an

opportunity to do some of that work. What David Jones was talking about

and does the work done by the last Labour government, does it? I don't

support it. I think it is a shame and we will be making sure as a

Welsh Parliamentary Labour Party that we have a good go at trying to

work with David Jones on this and to make sure that he listens to the

voice of, not just Welsh Labour, but the people. That means you want into

changes mind? Yes. Why? It's the law. We need to take a view of it at

the time. You never decide something in advance of any law changes. If

circumstances change, you change with it. That was the famous quote,

wasn't it? Let's see. For the moment, we are going to try and make

sure this doesn't happen. Thank you both for coming into us. That is all