Browse content similar to 13/04/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks' | :00:38. | :00:43. | |
time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever | :00:49. | :00:58. | |
we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political | :00:59. | :00:59. | |
Later in the programme, Sian James commentators. | :01:00. | :01:09. | |
Later in the programme, Sian James is standing down as an MP but not | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
ruling out being an AM and David Jones says David Cameron was right | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
to call Offa's Dyke Jones says David Cameron was right | :01:16. | :01:17. | |
newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
impartial about informing people of local services. | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections. | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all. | :01:41. | :01:51. | |
In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the | :01:52. | :01:53. | |
elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first. | :01:54. | :02:03. | |
And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
reminder of what all the fuss is about. | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73 | :02:22. | :02:21. | |
England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are | :02:27. | :02:33. | |
751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food | :02:52. | :03:01. | |
regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot. | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For, | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe, | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal | :04:00. | :04:05. | |
Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum. | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe, | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick | :04:44. | :04:51. | |
O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project | :04:56. | :04:57. | |
designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders. | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements. | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed. | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again. | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut, | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our | :06:43. | :06:50. | |
supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market. | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable | :09:23. | :09:30. | |
to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying. | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford, | :10:07. | :10:13. | |
you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue. | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats, | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
immigration. We have been open to people across the world for | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers, | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits, | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
only this week the office for National said that they did not | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the | :12:26. | :12:31. | |
EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are | :13:20. | :13:26. | |
you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here | :13:27. | :13:39. | |
today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are | :13:44. | :13:53. | |
wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with | :13:54. | :13:55. | |
countries with similar living standards to us. France, the | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of | :14:04. | :14:16. | |
which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street. | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses | :14:46. | :14:52. | |
were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that | :14:58. | :15:03. | |
they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for | :15:04. | :15:11. | |
more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on, | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2 | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for | :16:23. | :16:27. | |
people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the | :16:39. | :16:41. | |
country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits. | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool | :17:08. | :17:16. | |
place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits. | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs. | :18:43. | :18:50. | |
Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the | :19:08. | :19:12. | |
Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening | :19:13. | :19:17. | |
peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening | :19:45. | :19:47. | |
peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy | :20:32. | :20:36. | |
is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention | :21:13. | :21:20. | |
in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU. | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral. | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria, | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense. | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth, | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all. | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ? | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't | :25:51. | :25:57. | |
the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries. | :26:47. | :26:50. | |
Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back. | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP, | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are | :27:33. | :27:39. | |
quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
were the first British political party to have independent audits of | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up. | :28:45. | :28:50. | |
The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people | :29:16. | :29:21. | |
aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have | :29:35. | :29:40. | |
burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully. | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that | :29:59. | :30:04. | |
all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5 | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe. | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between... | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the | :31:42. | :31:48. | |
future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future, | :31:58. | :32:05. | |
if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has | :32:10. | :32:14. | |
led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that? | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In | :33:22. | :33:29. | |
some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not | :33:30. | :33:37. | |
sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on | :33:41. | :33:47. | |
the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a | :34:01. | :34:08. | |
good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle, | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not | :35:47. | :35:54. | |
looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get | :35:55. | :35:57. | |
anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your | :35:58. | :36:07. | |
irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that. | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to | :37:14. | :37:19. | |
have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage. | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes, | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales - the Welsh Secretary David | :37:45. | :37:49. | |
Jones on the Prime Minister's attack of the Welsh Government over the | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
health service. What's the latest on local government re-organisation? | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
What does the future hold for the Swansea East MP Sian James? And who | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
should pay the legal bill of former Shadow Welsh Secretary Nigel Evans | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
after he was cleared of rape and sexual assault last week? | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
But first, the Welsh Spring conference season drew to a close | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
yesterday. After Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Welsh | :38:18. | :38:19. | |
Labour, it's been the Welsh Conservatives' turn. In what one | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
senior member of the party said was an "aggressive strategy", there was | :38:25. | :38:27. | |
a concerted attack on the record of the Welsh Government, particularly | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
in health, which went further than ever before. The Prime Minister | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
weighed in, as did the Health Secretary for England, Jeremy Hunt, | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
and the leader of the party in Wales, Andrew RT Davies. I've been | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
speaking to the Welsh Secretary, David Jones, and I began by asking | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
him if the Prime Minister was right to call Offa's Dyke the line between | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
life and death. This seemed to be a clear indication that you're more | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
likely to die in an Welsh hospital than an English one. The clear | :38:53. | :39:00. | |
indication is there are concerns about the NHS is delivered in Wales | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
but that is not just the prime minister saying that. Of course, we | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
had the report from the Royal Oak job surgeons last year -- College of | :39:08. | :39:13. | |
surgeons last year. They were concerned about the waiting list. | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
The prime minister put it in rhetorical terms. Very stark terms. | :39:20. | :39:27. | |
But it has attracted your attention. Nevertheless, professionals are | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
expressing the sort of concerned that the Prime Minister expressed in | :39:33. | :39:35. | |
his speech and he was right to do it. If you take a sentence like | :39:36. | :39:42. | |
that, the critics will say that this is too broad based. Everyone gets | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
caught up in it. If you were to take a sentence like that, the impression | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
would be, do not come to Wales. Do not invest your money in Wales. | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
Analyse what he said. He said there is a diverging is between health | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
care in England and in Wales. And that of course is actually | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
substantiated by people such as the Royal College of surgeons whose | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
opinion we have to have respect for. It is entirely right for the Prime | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
Minister to draw attention to this which he did not only in this speech | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
but has done repeatedly in primaries discussed is over the last few | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
weeks. We should talk about the Nuffield Trust report, an | :40:27. | :40:28. | |
independent report looking at the state of the different health | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
services across the United Kingdom. One of the main conclusions it came | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
to was that actually there is not a huge amount of difference between | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
the NHS in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It did not say | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
that at all. It said they had not in much change. But that also implies | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
that the Welsh NHS is not catching up with the rest of the country. | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
There is little sign that one country is moving ahead of the | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
others, consistently, across the available indicators of performance. | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
That does not fit into the narrative. What it also said and it | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
said quite starkly was that if you need a hip replacement or a knee | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
replacement and you are in Wales, you will wait on average for 170 | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
days. If you need the same operation in England, you will wait for only | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
70 days. This actually reflects what we as members of Parliament get | :41:23. | :41:27. | |
consistently from Aachen city once. We are paying, say our constituents, | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
the same rates of tax and National Insurance as everybody else so why | :41:35. | :41:37. | |
are we having to wait longer for operations that we need? It is an | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
elective surgery certainly where this is most stark. You have to | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
remember that in parts of Wales such as this in Llangollen where we are | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
now that there is an increasing and greater reliance upon services that | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
are delivered across the border. If you need heart care, you would go to | :41:56. | :41:59. | |
Liverpool. If you need a hip replacement, you would probably go | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
just down the road. It is quite wrong that the same people... The | :42:05. | :42:11. | |
same hospitals are delivering differential waiting lists to | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
patients from England and Wales. And that is in daily substantiated by | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
the Nuffield trust report. -- entirely substantiated. If you talk | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
to constituents, you will see that this is an increasing concern. In | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
terms of the relationship, the cross-border relationship, in the | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
NHS, we are told on the vast majority of cases it is a | :42:36. | :42:41. | |
relationship which works well. Not so. Would there be a danger... We | :42:42. | :42:49. | |
know that Carwyn Jones has written to Downing Street saying the | :42:50. | :42:51. | |
political knock-about is all well and good but this is going beyond | :42:52. | :42:55. | |
the pale because it is the stabilising the NHS? This rhetoric | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
could damage the working relationship of the NHS. Absolutely | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
not. For the first time in the UK media are focusing attention on | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
Carwyn Jones is poor delivery of health in Wales. And I repeat, if | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
you think that there is a good working relationship between the NHS | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
in Wales and the NHS in England when if you are a Welsh patient you wait | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
over twice as long for the same operation, you have a pretty odd | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
idea of what is a good working relationship. In terms of the staff | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
of the NHS, do you think that the risk is that they will be tomorrow | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
raised with this constant criticism from the Prime Minister and | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
yourself? I do not think they would at all. We have been at pains to say | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
that the NHS staff in Wales are as competent, hard-working and | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
dedicated as those anywhere else. It is not the stuff that we are | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
criticising. It is the incompetent oversight of the NHS by the Labour | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
Party in Cardiff will stop and that of course is what Carwyn Jones is | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
objecting to. He does not like the fact that all of a sudden, the | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
national spotlight is on Labour 's failure on the NHS in Wales. You | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
have addressed the conference as well. One of the things that I | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
wanted to pick upon as well was the row over who will pay for the | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
ratification of the South Wales valleys. There is an element of | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
repetition as well here. We have had senior ministers saying one thing | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
and the Welsh Government saying another. How long have we got to | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
resolve this dispute? We have not got very long. Network rail will | :44:39. | :44:40. | |
need to know the positions or that they can do the work that they | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
thought was going to take place. Weeks? Absolutely. The Blissett -- | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
the position is extremely clear. There was an exchange of | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
correspondence from the Transport Secretary at the time and Carl | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
Sargeant, the Welsh Transport Minister at the time. It made it | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
clear. That was subsequently substantiated by the independent | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
Office of Rail Regulation who have confirmed minutes of a meeting in | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
which it was said that the Welsh Government will pay for the work. We | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
in Westminster were astounded when all of a sudden the First Minister | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
started to suggest that we were going to pay for all the work. That | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
was never agreed. He knows it was never agreed. And interestingly, | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
there was a meeting earlier this week that I attended with Italy win | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
a hardware she made no mention of that suggestion. -- Edwina Hart. My | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
concern is I think the Welsh Government have revisited the | :45:45. | :45:46. | |
costings and they are concerned they cannot afford it. What I have been | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
suggesting for some considerable time is that if they cannot afford | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
it, come back and talk to London and try and find some way around it. And | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
that is why I was glad to see Edwina Hart there. That is what she is | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
trying to do. I think they have dropped that contention now. He told | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
me in an interview with him six months ago. That was a | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
straightforward trial. You have seen me correspondence because I have | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
shown it to you. You know that there was an exchange of correspondence | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
which confirmed the basis of that electrification. You had the meeting | :46:22. | :46:28. | |
last week. Where will it go now? We are looking at further options for | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
paying for the cost of ratification but it would have been so much | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
easier instead of this nonsensical suggestion that the Welsh Government | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
had said weeks ago that they think they have a problem with the | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
funding. -- electrification. That is the way in -- a mature government | :46:46. | :46:54. | |
should behave. I want to ask you about Nigel Evans, the former shadow | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
Secretary of State for Wales, from Swansea, of course. He has been | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
cleared in the court case. Does he have a critical future? Let me say | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
that I have a huge amount of sympathy for Nigel and what I can | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
only imagine is the anguish he has gone through. It has been a very | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
difficult time for him. I know Nigel well and I know he's a good man. I | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
certainly would like to see a critical future for Nigel. Nigel | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
will be having discussions with the party after parliament returns after | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
the recess and I personally very much hope that there will be a | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
future for him. He is a good parliamentarian and he understands | :47:33. | :47:34. | |
Parliament and I think Parliament would be richer for him continuing | :47:35. | :47:40. | |
to work there. David Jones, thank you very much indeed. The body | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
representing Welsh councils is calling for clarity on proposals to | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
merge local authorities. In January, a commission set up by the Welsh | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
Government recommended cutting the number of councils in Wales by | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
around a half. But despite calling for action by Easter, there has been | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
no agreement amongst the belittle parties. The Welshman -- Welsh local | :48:02. | :48:08. | |
government Association says the uncertainty is potentially damaging | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
for councils. It was always come to be a tough deadline to meet, | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
agreement within three months on a plan to merge councils. There has | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
been plenty of talking up the assembly but there is little doubt | :48:20. | :48:21. | |
that the East attempt -- Easter deadline recommended will pass | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
without significant steps forward. The commission published its report | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
on the future of Welsh public services in January. The headline | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
recommendation was a reduction in the number of cancels from 22 -- | :48:34. | :48:42. | |
councils from 22 to viewer. Without agreement between the parties in | :48:43. | :48:47. | |
Cardiff Bay, it is clear that the process will not straightforward. | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
Now the First Minister says he wants consensus by the summer. But | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
deciding how many councils there should be and which one should merge | :48:59. | :49:05. | |
will not be easy. What he wants is a Labour Party map. This is what | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
happened with the last reorganisation of local government. | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
And we cannot be put in a position where we have been asked to sign up | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
to something which is agreed within the Labour Party which happens to | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
suit the Labour Party. We can all agree that the status quo is not an | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
option. But if we want to have a settled view on the future of local | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
government then there has to be discussions about that between the | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
political parties and not just the Labour Party deciding what is best | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
for itself. The government is due to set out its position on the | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
commission recommendations before the summer. And while it is | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
important, it says, to move swiftly, it is essential to take the time | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
necessary to get it right. It states that ongoing cross-party discussions | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
are an important part of the process. And it says it is important | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
a new council map is agreed as soon as possible. When there are jobs | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
involved, councillors at stake that might lose seats, it is a different | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
kettle of fish to move from the theory to the practical and | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
practical politics is what it is about. And of course, Carwyn Jones | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
is First Minister has got to deliver this. But he has to deliver it to a | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
party when most of his activists are involved in local government. Change | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
is not going to be easy to attain. Councils say they are waiting for a | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
lead from the Welsh Government. Will the commission report gathered dust? | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
That is up to Cardiff Bay politicians, they say. But | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
uncertainty is damaging. It seems to me we are in a position where the | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
Williams proposals are essentially contested by the little parties | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
across Wales. They are contested within local government and that | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
inevitably has slowed things down. Going back to the Easter deadline, | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
it does look very optimistic, with hindsight. That said, I think we now | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
need a very clear timescale for how the report is grown to be commended. | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
We cannot... We have all these employees and we cannot have the | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
sort of Damocles hanging over them for the next five or six years. The | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
Easter deadline may have been optimistic that one of the members | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
of the commission told me he is disappointed that the momentum built | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
up when the report came out seems to have been lost. But the commission | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
has done its work and now the focus is on the politicians. The First | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
Minister says acting on the Williams commission recommendations is a test | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
of his government. But reaching on changes -- agreement on changes are | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
clear -- appeared to be as elusive as the Easter Bunny. Several weeks | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
ago, the Swansea East MP Sian James announced she'd be leaving | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
Westminster at the next General Election. You might think that the | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
Labour MP was tired of politics but that isn't the case. She's been | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
telling our reporter Bethan James that she isn't ruling out entering | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
the world of politics again - though not at Westminster but at Cardiff | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
Bay. Sian James one -- one the Swansea | :52:03. | :52:09. | |
seat in 2005. She previously worked for Welsh women's aid but her | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
interest in politics began when she began -- became involved in the | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
miners' strike. When I met up with that in Westminster, she told me she | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
was leaving Parliament but not bowing out of policy-making. I am | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
very interested in the justice system and social justice. And I | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
think there is ever so much happening and changing in Wales at | :52:30. | :52:32. | |
the moment. There are great opportunities. We have a mature in | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
democracy. We have the assembly. And I am very excited about what is | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
happening around that. And as more powers were devolved to Cardiff Bay, | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
I think there will be opportunities and gaps, in a way, where maybe if I | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
took of those issues in Westminster, you could affect some change really, | :52:55. | :53:01. | |
the delivery of Edward the then fulfilled by my colleagues down in | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
Cardiff Bay. But I see a role, and opportunity. She says she has taken | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
great pride that agree on new legislation on sunbeds and helping | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
plant workers in that pensions campaign. But her heart has always | :53:18. | :53:24. | |
been in Wales. I knew I was never going to be the sort of MP who could | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
base myself in London and live here in London and then visit the | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
constituency. It had to be the other way round for me. It had to be | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
centred in the constituency and London would be the travel. And I | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
always knew I would have to travel and I have travelled with other | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
jobs. But I think I am ready now to be based nearer home, nearer my | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
family and to be affecting change is really within my direct community. | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
What about being a woman in Westminster? Do you feel it is | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
harder? What has frustrated me about Westminster and I have said this is | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
it is a little bit like quartz and Harry Potter. You come here and it | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
has its own rhythm, its own pattern, nothing is done | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
spontaneously. When you are sitting at home on your sofa, and you are | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
shouting at the TV and you're saying, when I get to | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
Westminster... When you get here, you discover that everything has a | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
pattern. And that pattern has been established over centuries. I think | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
if you are the sort of person who wants to get things done, it can be | :54:40. | :54:52. | |
quite frustrating. You have to find a way around it. You have to find | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
your way around whether you are male or female. It does not really | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
matter. I think if you are a woman, you juggling lots of other things as | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
well. But there's coming back to Wales full-time mean she is | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
interested not just in assembly politics but actually in being an | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
Assembly Member? It is not something I seriously thought about. I have | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
not ruled it in or out. There is one thing I have learned as a | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
politician, never say never because someone walls -- always what you | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
said. But I am looking forward to a way in which I can make a difference | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
in public life and I am quite excited by the fact that there will | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
be opportunities. And what those opportunities are, I cannot tell at | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
the moment. That I will not shut any doors at the moment. I will see what | :55:41. | :55:43. | |
comes along. The former Commons deputy speaker, Nigel Evans, says | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
the Crown Prosecution Service should pay his ?130,000 legal bill, after | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
he was cleared of rape and sexual assault last week. The Swansea-born | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
MP, who's a former Shadow Welsh Secretary, told a newspaper that the | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
court battle cost him all his life savings. Joining us now from our | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
Nottingham studio is a friend of Mr Evans - the former Montgomeryshire | :56:01. | :56:17. | |
MP, Lembit Opik. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Clearly, | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
Nigel Evans is extremely angry, judging by some of the reports in | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
the newspapers today. Do you share that anger? Yes, I do. I think he | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
has been dignified from beginning to end. A year of career wrecking hell | :56:31. | :56:36. | |
ending where I was sure it would end up. It is no surprise he is angry. | :56:37. | :56:43. | |
Surprising he is not more bitter. Let's look at it this way he was | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
cleared of all seven charges and has been dragged through the papers day | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
after day. Were accusations and he has chopped -- lost the job he | :56:52. | :56:57. | |
loved. I am surprised he was able to hold it together as well as he has. | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
We understand the chair of the Commons home affairs committee is | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
going to call for a review into this case and other similar cases. Do you | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
think that is a good idea? Yes, there are three things to look | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
at, what is the burden of evidence? I was amazed that someone -- the | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
police thought that someone like Nigel Evans could not possibly have | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
committed these crimes and has been dragged through the courts. | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
Secondly, it has cost him ?130,000 just to clear his name. And | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
thirdly, the nature of anonymity, as you have described. And the | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
suggestion is he has been punished in a terrible way, even though he | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
did not do anything wrong. We have heard from the Director of Public | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
Prosecutions service and she makes the point that they felt they had | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
enough to make a reasonable case for a conviction but of course, the | :57:51. | :57:55. | |
standards that a jury set are much higher than that. Let's look at how | :57:56. | :58:03. | |
strong their case was. It was so weak that they had me as a | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
prosecution witness. I thought it was a mistake when I first heard | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
that. They had someone like me who thought Nigel was innocent sounding | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
in the dock -- standing in the dock because they were desperate to | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
cobble together this set of charges. One of the points that I think Nigel | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
Evans rightly makes is there a seat that there is a series of individual | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
accusations and they were trying to package it up as an overall case | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
against him. The CPS really do have to look at themselves. They are in | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
the dock now. And they need to explain why it is natural justice | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
for them not to offer to pay back the ?130,000 at Nigel Evans spent. | :58:42. | :58:49. | |
This is the so-called bundling up, putting in weaker allegations. What | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
do you think should have happened in this case? It was a fishing | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
expedition really and the press have come under attack for that sort of | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
thing and it looks like the CPS were up to the same sort of tricks. We | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
should have a much clearer understanding of the burden of | :59:08. | :59:10. | |
proof, not simply a knee jerk reaction to the failures of the | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
Jimmy Savile case. And we should be very clear that someone who is found | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
innocent should not be effectively be paid a 130,000 fountain fine -- | :59:18. | :59:26. | |
?130,000 fine. I think people like Nigel Evans are not on a Level | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
Playing Field. The right thing to do is not reveal the identity of a | :59:34. | :59:37. | |
defendant in just the same way as the plaintiff 's were secured | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
anonymity. Of course, if the person is found guilty afterwards, it is | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
right to report that. But Nigel was effectively found guilty in the | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
press. And now he has four days of coverage to clear his name. Have you | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
spoken to him and what do you think is critical future is? I have. He is | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
very emotional, understandably. He is trying to get his life together. | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
If there was any justice, he would get his job as Deputy Speaker back. | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
Thank you very much indeed. And that's all from us this week and for | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
the next two Sundays. We're having a two week Easter break but when come | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
back, we'll be in full European election mode. If you want more news | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
today, there are regular updates on our online services in English and | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
Welsh and on Radio Cymru and Radio Wales. Wales Today is on BBC One | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
Wales at 6:50pm and Newyddion is on S4C at 5:50pm. For now though, it's | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
back to Andrew. risk. We have run out of time. -- | :00:30. | :00:40. | |
particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew. | :00:41. | :00:50. | |
The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in | :00:53. | :01:03. | |
the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
things that most people do not know much about. They know very little | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe, | :01:42. | :01:49. | |
the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not | :02:21. | :02:27. | |
know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the | :02:57. | :03:03. | |
outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40 | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is. | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem, | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences? I | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron | :05:26. | :05:31. | |
comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
sun will be about David Cameron's personal leadership and his grip on | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was | :06:13. | :06:19. | |
the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile. | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all, | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists, who | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the | :09:33. | :09:34. | |
case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him. | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is, | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith, | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on | :10:47. | :10:54. | |
bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture. | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent, | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on | :12:46. | :12:51. | |
them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers | :12:52. | :12:58. | |
of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC | :12:59. | :13:40. |