13/04/2014 Sunday Politics Wales


13/04/2014

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Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for

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their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'

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time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the

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issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the

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Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever

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we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political

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Later in the programme, Sian James commentators.

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Later in the programme, Sian James is standing down as an MP but not

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ruling out being an AM and David Jones says David Cameron was right

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to call Offa's Dyke Jones says David Cameron was right

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newspapers which some claim are politically slanted and not

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impartial about informing people of local services.

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So all that to come between now and quarter to four and for the next

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thirty minutes or so we'll be debating the European elections.

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Here in the studio we have Syed Kamall, leader of the Conservatives

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in the European Parliament, Richard Howitt, chair of the Labour group of

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MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader of the Lib Dems in Europe, and

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Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of communications. Welcome to you all.

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In a moment, all four will give us their opening pitch for the

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elections. A little earlier they drew lots to decide who'll go first.

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And that privilege goes to Syed. Before that, though, here's a quick

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reminder of what all the fuss is about.

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The vote to choose members of the European Parliament takes place on

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Thursday the 22nd of May. The same day as local elections are held in

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends 73

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England and Northern Ireland. The UK sends NTP is to Brussels. And the

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vote is a form of proportional representation. In total, there are

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751 MEPs from the 28 member states. What do they do all day? The

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European Parliament's power has grown. A vet of the EU commissioners

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and they can amend, approve or reject nearly all EU legislation and

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the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have been responsible for include price

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caps on mobile phone chargers, banking regulation and cover food

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regulation two -- labelling. Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds.

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Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe needs to change. And our

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relationship with Europe needs to change. Only the Conservatives have

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a plan to deliver that change and of the British people and in-out

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referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems will not and UKIP simply cannot.

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Only the Conservatives will offer the three yards, with Conservative

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MEPs working alongside a conservative Prime Minister. For,

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really is and above all a referendum. Sarah Ludford is next.

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Your choice is simple. If you think Britain is better off in Europe,

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vote for the Liberal Democrats. The Lib Dems are the only party of Ian,

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fighting to keep Britain in Europe and in work. There is nothing

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patriotic about UKIP's desire to pull-out. That is playing Russian

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roulette with Britain's economy and jobs. The Conservatives are flirting

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with exit and Labour lacks the courage to speak up. Thought Liberal

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Democrat on May the 22nd to say in Europe for jobs and security. Sarah

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Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from Labour. The European elections are

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about who represents you. They are not a referendum on a referendum.

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Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs and growth first. A guarantee to

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help young people into work, reforming energy markets so that

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bills are brought down for good. Labour believes in reform in Europe,

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but within. It is David Cameron who is risking your job and Britain's

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prosperity because of divisions in his own party. Labour MEPs put

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British interests first. Our fourth opening statement from Patrick

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O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a declining regional trade bloc in an

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era of global trade. It is a 20th-century political project

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designed to prevent conflict in Europe that is now reawakening old

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hostilities. It is an attempt to force on the European people

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European this as their primary collective identity. It has hollowed

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out British democracy and now we do not even control our own borders.

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That is why you should vote UKIP. That is the opening statements.

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Let's get on with the debate. Why should people vote in the

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selections? If you vote UKIP, we can deliver an earthquake that will rock

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the foundations of British politics and the European political class. We

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can send a signal to Europe that Britain has had enough, that Britain

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wants to retain its nation state status and regain political power

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and the ability to forge trading deals across the world. Britain

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leading Europe to freedom twice in the last century through bloodshed.

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We feel that a UKIP win in those elections could help Britain set an

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example to lead European nation states back to free assembly again.

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Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that many Tory voters will vote you clip

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to keep you honest, to keep your feet to the fire? Whatever you think

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of the European Parliament or the EU, the fact is that the European

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Parliament as equal power with the 28 governments of the EU. When David

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Cameron delivered the first cut to the EU budget, the first ever cut,

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he needed a strong team of Conservative MEPs working alongside

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him. But many of your supporters will vote for UKIP for the reasons I

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gave. Many will vote Liberal Democrat. Not very many. Many of our

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supporters will vote for us because we are the only party trying to

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change the EU and offer reform. We have offered renegotiation and a

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referendum. And how would you vote in such a referendum? We have no

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idea whether he would vote yes or no. Let him answer. I will answer

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that question. If the EU continues on this road, towards a United

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States of Europe, and if there was no change at the time of the

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referendum, then I would probably vote to leave. You have no

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confidence in David Cameron? We Javier Culson opportunity to read

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negotiate our relationship with Europe and the Conservatives are at

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the forefront of that agenda. David Cameron have not given a list of

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demands. He said that if things do not change, he will probably vote to

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leave, is that right? If at the time of the referendum, things had not

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changed, I would vote to leave and we have a golden opportunity to

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perform the agenda. Richard, the last time the British people had a

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say on this was over 40 years ago. Under a Labour government. Which was

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deeply divided on the issue. And that was a say on the common market.

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Today's EU is a very different animal from the common market. Why

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can we not, under another Labour government, have another vote? First

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of all, we want it to be more than a free trading area. We make no

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apologies about that. But in the elections because this is half of

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Britain's exports and investment. If you care about your job and

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business, you cannot hear from the party of government that they

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probably want you to leave because the CBI, the engineering employees

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in Federation and the chimp of commerce, 80% of them say it is

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necessary to stay in. So why not give us a vote? When David Cameron

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says he wants to repatriate social powers, he means takeaway maternity

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rights and holidays. If the case is so strong, why not give us an in-out

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vote? David Miliband has said that there will be a referendum if there

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was a proposal to change powers. Why wait? This is based on a series of

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reforms. Labour has a set of reforms. David Cameron is silent

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about what they would be. That is because he knows that if he put them

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forward, they would either be unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic

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backbenchers and he would be out of a job, or they would be unacceptable

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to European leaders. Why is your leader missing in action? Ed

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Miliband is unable to say even the positive things that you are saying.

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He has run away from the argument. He actually said there would not be

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a referendum in his time. For a conservative to say they will

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have a referendum but not give the reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg

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gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity in that debate. He said that the

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Eurosceptic view was to leave Britain like Billy no mates. I can

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say that he is the best qualified person to say that. Sarah Ludford,

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you have said that lots of people are going to vote Lib Dem but that

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is not what the polls are saying. You are 7% in two polls this

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morning. Eclectic's decision to champion Europe has been a disaster

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for you. You face wet out. We swayed a lot of people our way with Nick

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Clegg's debate. Where is the evidence? We are the only party that

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is completely united, saying that we are wanting to stay in. It is

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essential because formally and jobs are supported by our trade with the

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EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding a lot of moderate conservative

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voters are actually fed up with the Tories being split and divided all

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over the place. Syed Kamall saying that we might vote in rout. -- in or

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out. We are consistent. A poll in London showed that 18% would vote

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for us. I am delighted about that. London is not the whole country, it

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may surprise you. We need to move on to immigration, an important issue.

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We are a member of the EU and the rules say that with a few caveats,

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our fellow EU citizens are free to come here if they want. Why can we

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not just accept that? Britain has a proud record when it comes to

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immigration. We have been open to people across the world for

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centuries. But we welcome people who come to our country to contribute to

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pay taxes and two wards are a society positively. But there are

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three real concerns that we have to address. The first one is numbers,

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and secondly people who may come here not to work but for benefits,

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and thirdly, getting a hang of the numbers. I think it is shameful that

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only this week the office for National said that they did not

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collect sufficient figures under a Labour government. 350,000 extra

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people came in and they did not count the numbers. That is the size

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of a city like Cardiff. That is shameful. 350,000 came from all over

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the place. Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the EU? I

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accept and am open to people who want to come here and contribute. In

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the same way... Do you accept the free movement of peoples within the

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EU? In our manifesto, we have said it is an issue for reform. We have

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to make sure that people are coming here to work and contribute

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positively, not simply to come here and take advantage of the system. I

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will tell you what else is shameful. What is shameful is David

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Cameron making a pledge to the British people on an issue that they

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really care about, to bring net immigration down to the tens of

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thousands a year, having no means of fulfilling that pledge. And we see

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now it is back up to 212,000 a year because we have no volume control

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and no quality control from immigration from our neighbours. And

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that is a disgrace. How could UKIP address that issue? Because we would

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leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You do not have a single member of

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Parliament. He will not get a single member of Parliament. How are

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you... ? TUC are hoping to get an MEP. What do you say? -- he is here

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today hoping to get an MEP. All of -- almost 2 million Brits live and

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work in the rest of the EU. Is that worth having? The majority are

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wealthy, retired people. Why do not object to bilateral agreements with

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countries with similar living standards to us. France, the

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Netherlands, that works fine. But these three people want Turkey to

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join the EU, 75 Na Li and people running our country, only 10% of

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which... Syed Kamall is Michael year to say whether they are in favour of

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free movement for work, not for benefits... That is what I'm

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saying. You said you were unable to be clear. That leaves 2 million

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British people absolutely unsure as to whether they would have a right

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to continue to live in other countries. It is a two-way street.

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You are putting those people in a state of uncertainty. EU migrants

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have been good for the British economy and contribute far more than

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they take out in services and benefits. One in seven businesses

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were founded in -- by migrants. And they cannot just turn up and claim

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benefits. The coalition government has legislated to make sure that

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they cannot claim for three months. They will not be able to claim for

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more than six months. Richard Howitt, Jack Straw said it was "A

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spectacular mistake for Labour to allow EU migrants from Poland and

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Hungary to work in the UK from 2004." Why should we trust a party

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that makes spectacular mistakes and hasn't apologised for it? We accept

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it is a mistake and I apologise. We make a firm commitment for new EU

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states we will put down transitional controls. When I listen to the

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Conservatives and UKIP trying to re-write history, saying immigration

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was out of control, uncontrolled, open door, we hear it over and over

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again. It is not true. Anyone who was around at the time... Come on,

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Richard. Hold on, you undercounted by 350,000. You were letting 2

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million in over the years, an under-counted by 350,000 people you

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didn't know came in. You should have tightened the benefit rules. The

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Conservative MEP today has, in four years in government in Britain, is

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trying it blame the previous Labour Government over the fact they won't

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count people in or people out. Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for

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people to come to the country and benefits are changing, changing the

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habitual residence test and we are going to say that migrants can't

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come and claim child benefit if their children are outside the

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country. Labour a has shown they have listened to concerns but we say

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it is a stronger, better, country because it is diverse and

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multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy politics from all the Peters. They

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are committed to a system with no volume control and no quality

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control. You talk about benefits as if it is only out of work benefits.

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In work benefits cost a lot of money for the British taxpayer. Big

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businesses bring in minimum wage workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool

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place What are you going to do? Have all the pensioners come back to

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Britain? How will will you fund the health care? Do you really think

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Spain and pour tu ghal their current situation, are going to turn their

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backs on British property owners with wealth? -- Portugal. They might

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not wanting pensioners to use their health service. Pensioners often

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come back to Britain to use the health service. You have shown it

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represents wealthy people's interests. A second Conservative

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Party. Hang on a minute... Blue collar wages were down. They want it

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character for the National Health Service, have cuts that go farther

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and comprehensive education. This is a debate on the wider politics

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between Conservatives and UKIP and Labour will... You can't both talk

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time. UKIP - they haven't thought it through, thousand they will have

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trade access in the EU, hasn't thought how they will have trade

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deals that the Liberal Democrats support, like with the United

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States: Would you have a cap on non-EU immigrants? We are not in

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favour of a cap. No cap on either. No. Well it is a target. It is a

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moving feast, as it were. Would you have a limit on non-EU limits? We

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have limits on quality. We have people who are skilled migrants

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coming in. Lip its? . By quality, not by quantity. -- Limits.

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How do you do that? We need to move on to foreign affairs.

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Should we pool more sovereignty to give the European Union more clout

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in foreign and defence matters? I'm Labour's defence and foreign affairs

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spokesperson. No we don't need to pull more powers into Europe. As we

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undertake this live debate there are guns being fired in Ukraine as we

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speak. Europe is facing, for the first time, since the end of the

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Second World War, Armies crossing national borders and floatening

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peace. Doesn't it -- threatening peace. Doesn't it need to come

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together of the We don't need more powers. We need political will. With

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Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has -- we have fallen short in the

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sanctions. But it is Europe, not Britain. Remember Putin calling

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Britain little England a small island with no influence. Labour

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doesn't agree with that. But if that's the mindset that allows

:19:41.:19:44.

someone like Vladimir Putin to send troops across borders threatening

:19:45.:19:47.

peace, it is worrying. And when we have, in UKIP a party that say they

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admire Putin and support his policies, that is no recipe for how

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Europe should be wrong. I was waiting for that. Let me ask him. We

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don't admire Putin as a leader... Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage

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said, was he admired him as a political operator. Testifies

:20:10.:20:12.

Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good foreign policy was speaking softly

:20:13.:20:18.

but carrying a big stick. The EU shouts its mouthed off while

:20:19.:20:23.

carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy that you wiebl it stand up to Putin

:20:24.:20:27.

over the Ukraine. -- that you would be able to stand up. Do you admire

:20:28.:20:31.

what Putin is doing in the Ukraine? No. What matters in foreign policy

:20:32.:20:36.

is the outcould. We have a terrible outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria,

:20:37.:20:41.

and Georgia... What would UKIP do? What u skip would do, would be to

:20:42.:20:47.

keep our people safe -- UKIP. How? And not commit our Foreign

:20:48.:20:53.

Office and troops Foreign wars. Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this

:20:54.:20:58.

issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel Farage said in previous debates that

:20:59.:21:02.

Britain should leave the EU because, "We have had enough of endless

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foreign wars." Which wars has the EU taken us into? The EU has ban very

:21:08.:21:12.

important factor in the push towards trying to get military intervention

:21:13.:21:20.

in Syria, for example. What wars has the etch U taken us into it -- EU.

:21:21.:21:25.

Fortunately the EU doesn't have its own army yet. It has wanted to sign

:21:26.:21:32.

up to an expansionist agenda. Did it want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP

:21:33.:21:38.

opposed Iraq, so did most of the mainline Europeans. Germany was

:21:39.:21:43.

against Syria and Libya. No EU policy. We had an Anglo French deal

:21:44.:21:50.

on Syria. A by lateral deal. A European dimension. No, buy lateral.

:21:51.:21:55.

We have a European Union that wants to expand ever-more into other

:21:56.:22:00.

people's spheres of influence. If we are going to stand up to what Putin

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is do, which obviously Nigel Farage has no intentions of doing, you have

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to get your act together on economic sanctions and diplomatic force and

:22:11.:22:14.

in trade matters, in supporting eastern European countries. Sayeria,

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who and whose army? And NATO and working transatlanticically, is

:22:22.:22:24.

important through NATO. I will come to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said

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that the idea of an EU Army was, "A dangerous fantasy that is simply not

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true ""Why then, are we already working on etch U-owned and

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controlled drones -- EU-owned and the President of the European

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Parliament has said that the majority of MEPs want the EU to have

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"deployable troops." He is not speaking for me or Liberal

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Democrats. The EU does not and will not have an army. Our defence is

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mainly shaped through NATO. He is President of the Parliament What we

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must do is to get equipment which can operate together. We waste an

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awful lot of our spending in Europe because we duplicate equipment. We

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don't get the bang for our bucks that we should. It is a useful role

:23:10.:23:14.

for the EU, to get equipment working together. That doesn't make sense.

:23:15.:23:18.

You say military equipment, a NATO job. No, the EU, there is a kind of

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dimension of the EU members of NATO, in working together on a common

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quument o o so they can talk to each other -- on common equipment, so

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they can talk to each other. The EU has a role but not an army. So a

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European defence agency, that helps our defence industries and those

:23:39.:23:42.

jobs are extremely important and would be threatened if the

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Conservatives and UKIP took us out of Europe but it is 100 years since

:23:46.:23:51.

the start of the fist world war. Remember that Europe was set up to

:23:52.:23:55.

try to get a secure peace within Europe T succeeded. Now look on

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Ukraine but also on the southern borders to the Arab Spring countries

:24:00.:24:02.

in North Africa. It is more important than ever that we work to

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keep keep peace and stability on our borders. Can I say to Syed and the

:24:08.:24:12.

Conservative MEPs. You talk about the three Rs, I have a fourth,

:24:13.:24:16.

retreat. If you take us out of the European Union, it will be the worse

:24:17.:24:22.

retreat by Britain since Gallipoli. Let him answer If he wants answers

:24:23.:24:26.

-- the British Parliament is the right place with a British Foreign

:24:27.:24:29.

Secretary to decide our foreign policy. You say that, but can I

:24:30.:24:36.

quote David Cameron, this is germain to what you are saying, David

:24:37.:24:40.

Cameron said "There is no doubt that we are more powerful than

:24:41.:24:44.

Washington, Beijing and Delhi, because we are a powerful player in

:24:45.:24:48.

the European Union." Do you agree? He is saying that there are times

:24:49.:24:51.

when it comes to international foreign affairs when you have to

:24:52.:24:55.

cooperate with partners. Often they are EU partners but often they are

:24:56.:25:00.

not. The problem we have... Washington have made it very clear

:25:01.:25:05.

that it wants Britain to talk through Brussels. No, not at all.

:25:06.:25:10.

Talk through the French and Italians, come on, wake up? Through

:25:11.:25:16.

the EU collective. I'm vice chair of the EU delegation. I hear it from

:25:17.:25:19.

the American counterparts. They want the EU to get itself together and

:25:20.:25:24.

not least on Ukraine. Why should our sovereignty be at the behest of... ?

:25:25.:25:29.

I want to hear from Syed calm amplgts the British Parliament is

:25:30.:25:32.

the right place to decide our foreign poll sinchts sometimes we

:25:33.:25:35.

work with our European partners, sometimes we work with our

:25:36.:25:39.

non-European partners. It is our choice to pull sovereign trito work

:25:40.:25:45.

together. G, we move on to our foirt area. We hear a lot in this country

:25:46.:25:50.

about MPs expenses. Snted the real scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't

:25:51.:25:57.

the real scandal, the MEPs gravy train? You all have your snouts? The

:25:58.:26:04.

trough? I don't think so. There is transpancy. The way we use our

:26:05.:26:09.

expenses is online and anyone can ask to examine those. We have

:26:10.:26:13.

actually voted to reform MEPs' allowances. We regularly vote but

:26:14.:26:18.

unfortunately the majority in Parliament don't. Have you voted to

:26:19.:26:23.

cut them? Yes. By how much? About 5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies

:26:24.:26:29.

I never fly except across the Atlantic. Difficult to do it any

:26:30.:26:35.

other way. I didn't swim. But we voted for economy flutes. We

:26:36.:26:41.

voted for European Parliament policy of transparency which other groups

:26:42.:26:46.

haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote. They don't earn their salaries.

:26:47.:26:50.

Dhoent do anything. They should hand their salaries and allowances back.

:26:51.:26:55.

You can't ause UKIP of being on the gravy train and the other that we

:26:56.:26:59.

don't claim our attendance allowance because our MEPs are not there. Your

:27:00.:27:05.

attendance allowance is if you are there, you are saying we don't turn

:27:06.:27:08.

up You are in the building and claim the allowances. You are not an MEP,

:27:09.:27:12.

UKIP are so ashamed of what their MEPs have done in Brussels, they

:27:13.:27:17.

didn't field a sitting MEP for today's debate. I think each party

:27:18.:27:22.

decides who it wishes to field. I have the honour of being the UKIP

:27:23.:27:26.

representative. I would say by going in the past few weeks, xeeming to me

:27:27.:27:32.

saying - we are sick of the others. -- people saying to me. : We are

:27:33.:27:39.

quite excited. Can I ask Patrick O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord

:27:40.:27:43.

and his party is strong in the polls today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't

:27:44.:27:49.

you also struck a chord with hip crasscy. Two of your MEPs were

:27:50.:27:54.

jailed for expenses and benefits' fraud. Two more asked to pay back

:27:55.:27:59.

?37,000 for using European funds. Nigel Farage has boosted about

:28:00.:28:03.

getting ?2 million in expenses and he went on to employ his wife as a

:28:04.:28:07.

secretarial allowance after telling other members not to People who do

:28:08.:28:12.

wrong and break the law, go to ja. I have no time. -- go to jail. People

:28:13.:28:17.

who spend money they are not entitled to should pay it back and

:28:18.:28:21.

that's right. But what UKIP does and the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the

:28:22.:28:26.

allowances they are given to pursue the political agenda they put up

:28:27.:28:29.

when elected which is to get Britain out of this superstate. Instead of

:28:30.:28:33.

using it for parliamentary work. Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We

:28:34.:28:39.

were the first British political party to have independent audits of

:28:40.:28:44.

our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way before the expenses crisis blew up.

:28:45.:28:50.

The Maria Miller scandal has of course hit David Cameron and the

:28:51.:28:53.

Conservative Party hard as it should do. But you are right, even in my

:28:54.:28:58.

own region you have UKIP candidates and councillors who have been

:28:59.:29:01.

charged with fraudulently filling out election papers and other shot

:29:02.:29:05.

lifting. Another independent inquiry found he made racist comments. We

:29:06.:29:11.

had a European candidate last week in Hertfordshire who got a parking

:29:12.:29:15.

ticket from the police and called the police fascists. These people

:29:16.:29:21.

aren't here. I'll let you have a quick reply. We

:29:22.:29:25.

can bring up parochial cases. Let him answer. Not so long ago a

:29:26.:29:29.

Liberal Democrat councillor was sent down for firebombing, I don't say

:29:30.:29:34.

they are a bunch of arsonists, but now I think, Nick Clegg might have

:29:35.:29:40.

burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad you pronounced that word carefully.

:29:41.:29:46.

Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they are strongly critical of the EU's

:29:47.:29:52.

financials saying "Errors permist in all main spending areas", the

:29:53.:29:58.

financials are poorly managed. It is a shambles And that's something that

:29:59.:30:04.

all parties agree on. As we agree on expenses, the British parties are at

:30:05.:30:08.

the forefront of transpancy. Every year when we vote for the discharge

:30:09.:30:11.

of the budget, the Conservatives also vote for it but we don't get

:30:12.:30:16.

enough MEPs from other countries to investigate in favour. The Liberal

:30:17.:30:19.

Democrats have put forward to make each Finance Minister, George

:30:20.:30:24.

Osborne and his counterpart to sign a declaration to say all EU money is

:30:25.:30:28.

properly spent in my country. Funnily enough they don't want to do

:30:29.:30:33.

that but I look forward to you confirming that George Osborne will

:30:34.:30:37.

sign it. All the time we hear it is about the money we pay in, about

:30:38.:30:42.

?150 per family per year. What about the money that comes back? ?1. 5

:30:43.:30:47.

billion that comes to Britain's regions because of being in Europe.

:30:48.:30:52.

I myself helped to negotiate a fund to help Britain's food banks to

:30:53.:30:56.

ensure so. Poorest and most destitute people... Isn't it our

:30:57.:31:00.

money that went there first. Can I tell you the Conservative-led

:31:01.:31:03.

Government have blocked us from claiming that money. If you want to

:31:04.:31:07.

have the clearest choice at these European elections, it is between...

:31:08.:31:16.

Tell us why. It affects our rebate. Tony Blair gave away our rebate. He

:31:17.:31:24.

is quite right. Lib Dems fought to make sure that we apply for money to

:31:25.:31:28.

help with flooding. That is what the Tories were blocking. If you want

:31:29.:31:31.

the clearest example at the European elections, the Conservative Party

:31:32.:31:35.

and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers bonuses, and then blocked a Labour

:31:36.:31:41.

victory to get money for free banks. We need to move on to the

:31:42.:31:48.

future. It is important and people are watching. The EU's Justice

:31:49.:31:53.

Minister says that we need to build a United States of Europe with the

:31:54.:31:57.

commission as its government. Is she right? Not at all. But the future,

:31:58.:32:05.

if we take the next ten years, thinks about climate change and the

:32:06.:32:09.

fact that we are not going to hit of the two degrees target. Europe has

:32:10.:32:14.

led and needs to lead towards getting a new sustainable world. It

:32:15.:32:17.

is the political will to use these powers, so she is wrong. It is about

:32:18.:32:20.

the threats from abroad. Labour reforms like getting a commissioner

:32:21.:32:25.

for growth and rebalancing the budget, reforming the common

:32:26.:32:29.

agricultural policy, all of those things will need to happen to make

:32:30.:32:34.

Europe more democratic and open. But against the rise of Brazil and

:32:35.:32:41.

China... We do not need more treaties and powers. We need more

:32:42.:32:46.

action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah Ludford, you would sign up to that?

:32:47.:32:51.

No. Unless they do not think that should concentrate on institutional

:32:52.:32:56.

matters. What we need to do is concentrate on making Europe

:32:57.:33:01.

progrowth and competitive and create more jobs in a competitive world. We

:33:02.:33:07.

need more trade deals to open up our exports, we need to streamline the

:33:08.:33:13.

EU. We need less red tape and Liberal Democrats have done a lot on

:33:14.:33:16.

that. We need better scrutiny of EU legislation at West Munster because

:33:17.:33:21.

the national parties... More powers or less for the EU government? In

:33:22.:33:29.

some areas, I would like to see it slimmed down. Including, I am not

:33:30.:33:37.

sure whether the EU should be funding food banks. I think that is

:33:38.:33:40.

a national responsibility. Dearie me. The EU have to concentrate on

:33:41.:33:47.

the economy and climate change. This is the coalition talking. If we want

:33:48.:33:52.

to fritter away political capital on things which are interfering in

:33:53.:33:57.

national matters, then we do not have the support to tackle those big

:33:58.:34:00.

challenges. Would you still want to join the Euro one-day? Now is not a

:34:01.:34:08.

good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to still be sound, which is why... Did

:34:09.:34:14.

not ask you that. Do you want to join the Euro one-day? If it is a

:34:15.:34:17.

success and it did the economy. Now is not the time but in principle,

:34:18.:34:23.

the idea of a single currency has advantages. That was a yes. We are

:34:24.:34:30.

not ruling it out for ever but not in the foreseeable future. It is not

:34:31.:34:34.

on the horizon. What would our relationship be with Europe in the

:34:35.:34:38.

future if UKIP got its way and we left? We would be trading partners

:34:39.:34:42.

with Europe and we would seek partnership in specific serious. I'd

:34:43.:34:47.

tell you what, can I just say... Would we be Norway? We would be

:34:48.:34:52.

stronger than Norway because we are the biggest export market in the

:34:53.:34:58.

Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke trading agreement reflecting our

:34:59.:35:02.

enormous importance. Not on services, which make up 80% of the

:35:03.:35:06.

economy. We are the biggest export market in the Eurozone. Our biggest

:35:07.:35:10.

exports are services and they would have to agree to free trade and

:35:11.:35:15.

services. They still have not. Can I read you something? Let me read you

:35:16.:35:21.

something. There would be a free trade agreement in place the day

:35:22.:35:25.

after our exit. Germany would demand no less. Who said that? Not somebody

:35:26.:35:31.

from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr business. He is talking about

:35:32.:35:35.

goods, not services. Norway has that and they have no say. You would have

:35:36.:35:39.

to accept the EU rules without any say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let

:35:40.:35:46.

me give you another. Enough. One is enough. Syed Kamall, is it not

:35:47.:35:54.

looking forward pretty much Mission: Impossible for Mr Cameron to get

:35:55.:35:57.

anything like the repatriations of powers that would satisfy your

:35:58.:36:07.

irreconcilables? My father was a bus driver in the 50s and one of the

:36:08.:36:10.

reasons I am here today is because he told me that you can achieve

:36:11.:36:13.

anything if you work hard. He said to me, do not listen to the

:36:14.:36:17.

doubters. When people tell you that something cannot be done, it is a

:36:18.:36:20.

sign of their limitations, not yours. They said that we could not

:36:21.:36:24.

pull Britain out of the bailout mechanism but we did it. He said we

:36:25.:36:29.

could not be to a -- veto European treaty and we did that. They said we

:36:30.:36:33.

would never cut the budget and we did that. The first ever. But

:36:34.:36:38.

overall, we are paying more into the European budget. And they are not

:36:39.:36:44.

sticking to it. More, not less. They say that we cannot achieve reform

:36:45.:36:48.

but we have achieved reform and we are at the forefront of that.

:36:49.:36:53.

Science's father came to Britain because Britain was open and looking

:36:54.:37:00.

outward. What the Conservatives now have, with leaderless Cameron, is an

:37:01.:37:08.

inward looking attitude. They are allowing the rise of UKIP. They are

:37:09.:37:13.

putting so much at risk. People should vote Labour. We are going to

:37:14.:37:19.

have to stop now. No point talking because we are about to finish. I

:37:20.:37:22.

think you all for a spirited debate. I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg

:37:23.:37:27.

will have learned a lot about how to debate. -- Nigel Farage.

:37:28.:37:30.

It's just gone 3pm, and you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say

:37:31.:37:33.

goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics

:37:34.:37:36.

Scotland. Coming up here in twenty minutes,

:37:37.:37:44.

Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales - the Welsh Secretary David

:37:45.:37:49.

Jones on the Prime Minister's attack of the Welsh Government over the

:37:50.:37:52.

health service. What's the latest on local government re-organisation?

:37:53.:37:56.

What does the future hold for the Swansea East MP Sian James? And who

:37:57.:38:00.

should pay the legal bill of former Shadow Welsh Secretary Nigel Evans

:38:01.:38:03.

after he was cleared of rape and sexual assault last week?

:38:04.:38:09.

But first, the Welsh Spring conference season drew to a close

:38:10.:38:17.

yesterday. After Plaid Cymru, the Welsh Liberal Democrats and Welsh

:38:18.:38:19.

Labour, it's been the Welsh Conservatives' turn. In what one

:38:20.:38:24.

senior member of the party said was an "aggressive strategy", there was

:38:25.:38:27.

a concerted attack on the record of the Welsh Government, particularly

:38:28.:38:30.

in health, which went further than ever before. The Prime Minister

:38:31.:38:33.

weighed in, as did the Health Secretary for England, Jeremy Hunt,

:38:34.:38:36.

and the leader of the party in Wales, Andrew RT Davies. I've been

:38:37.:38:40.

speaking to the Welsh Secretary, David Jones, and I began by asking

:38:41.:38:44.

him if the Prime Minister was right to call Offa's Dyke the line between

:38:45.:38:48.

life and death. This seemed to be a clear indication that you're more

:38:49.:38:52.

likely to die in an Welsh hospital than an English one. The clear

:38:53.:39:00.

indication is there are concerns about the NHS is delivered in Wales

:39:01.:39:03.

but that is not just the prime minister saying that. Of course, we

:39:04.:39:07.

had the report from the Royal Oak job surgeons last year -- College of

:39:08.:39:13.

surgeons last year. They were concerned about the waiting list.

:39:14.:39:19.

The prime minister put it in rhetorical terms. Very stark terms.

:39:20.:39:27.

But it has attracted your attention. Nevertheless, professionals are

:39:28.:39:32.

expressing the sort of concerned that the Prime Minister expressed in

:39:33.:39:35.

his speech and he was right to do it. If you take a sentence like

:39:36.:39:42.

that, the critics will say that this is too broad based. Everyone gets

:39:43.:39:49.

caught up in it. If you were to take a sentence like that, the impression

:39:50.:39:56.

would be, do not come to Wales. Do not invest your money in Wales.

:39:57.:40:01.

Analyse what he said. He said there is a diverging is between health

:40:02.:40:07.

care in England and in Wales. And that of course is actually

:40:08.:40:10.

substantiated by people such as the Royal College of surgeons whose

:40:11.:40:14.

opinion we have to have respect for. It is entirely right for the Prime

:40:15.:40:17.

Minister to draw attention to this which he did not only in this speech

:40:18.:40:21.

but has done repeatedly in primaries discussed is over the last few

:40:22.:40:26.

weeks. We should talk about the Nuffield Trust report, an

:40:27.:40:28.

independent report looking at the state of the different health

:40:29.:40:34.

services across the United Kingdom. One of the main conclusions it came

:40:35.:40:39.

to was that actually there is not a huge amount of difference between

:40:40.:40:43.

the NHS in England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. It did not say

:40:44.:40:49.

that at all. It said they had not in much change. But that also implies

:40:50.:40:52.

that the Welsh NHS is not catching up with the rest of the country.

:40:53.:40:58.

There is little sign that one country is moving ahead of the

:40:59.:41:02.

others, consistently, across the available indicators of performance.

:41:03.:41:05.

That does not fit into the narrative. What it also said and it

:41:06.:41:10.

said quite starkly was that if you need a hip replacement or a knee

:41:11.:41:13.

replacement and you are in Wales, you will wait on average for 170

:41:14.:41:17.

days. If you need the same operation in England, you will wait for only

:41:18.:41:22.

70 days. This actually reflects what we as members of Parliament get

:41:23.:41:27.

consistently from Aachen city once. We are paying, say our constituents,

:41:28.:41:34.

the same rates of tax and National Insurance as everybody else so why

:41:35.:41:37.

are we having to wait longer for operations that we need? It is an

:41:38.:41:42.

elective surgery certainly where this is most stark. You have to

:41:43.:41:46.

remember that in parts of Wales such as this in Llangollen where we are

:41:47.:41:50.

now that there is an increasing and greater reliance upon services that

:41:51.:41:55.

are delivered across the border. If you need heart care, you would go to

:41:56.:41:59.

Liverpool. If you need a hip replacement, you would probably go

:42:00.:42:04.

just down the road. It is quite wrong that the same people... The

:42:05.:42:11.

same hospitals are delivering differential waiting lists to

:42:12.:42:14.

patients from England and Wales. And that is in daily substantiated by

:42:15.:42:19.

the Nuffield trust report. -- entirely substantiated. If you talk

:42:20.:42:24.

to constituents, you will see that this is an increasing concern. In

:42:25.:42:29.

terms of the relationship, the cross-border relationship, in the

:42:30.:42:35.

NHS, we are told on the vast majority of cases it is a

:42:36.:42:41.

relationship which works well. Not so. Would there be a danger... We

:42:42.:42:49.

know that Carwyn Jones has written to Downing Street saying the

:42:50.:42:51.

political knock-about is all well and good but this is going beyond

:42:52.:42:55.

the pale because it is the stabilising the NHS? This rhetoric

:42:56.:43:00.

could damage the working relationship of the NHS. Absolutely

:43:01.:43:07.

not. For the first time in the UK media are focusing attention on

:43:08.:43:10.

Carwyn Jones is poor delivery of health in Wales. And I repeat, if

:43:11.:43:15.

you think that there is a good working relationship between the NHS

:43:16.:43:19.

in Wales and the NHS in England when if you are a Welsh patient you wait

:43:20.:43:25.

over twice as long for the same operation, you have a pretty odd

:43:26.:43:29.

idea of what is a good working relationship. In terms of the staff

:43:30.:43:34.

of the NHS, do you think that the risk is that they will be tomorrow

:43:35.:43:38.

raised with this constant criticism from the Prime Minister and

:43:39.:43:41.

yourself? I do not think they would at all. We have been at pains to say

:43:42.:43:47.

that the NHS staff in Wales are as competent, hard-working and

:43:48.:43:51.

dedicated as those anywhere else. It is not the stuff that we are

:43:52.:43:56.

criticising. It is the incompetent oversight of the NHS by the Labour

:43:57.:44:00.

Party in Cardiff will stop and that of course is what Carwyn Jones is

:44:01.:44:05.

objecting to. He does not like the fact that all of a sudden, the

:44:06.:44:09.

national spotlight is on Labour 's failure on the NHS in Wales. You

:44:10.:44:13.

have addressed the conference as well. One of the things that I

:44:14.:44:19.

wanted to pick upon as well was the row over who will pay for the

:44:20.:44:22.

ratification of the South Wales valleys. There is an element of

:44:23.:44:27.

repetition as well here. We have had senior ministers saying one thing

:44:28.:44:33.

and the Welsh Government saying another. How long have we got to

:44:34.:44:38.

resolve this dispute? We have not got very long. Network rail will

:44:39.:44:40.

need to know the positions or that they can do the work that they

:44:41.:44:46.

thought was going to take place. Weeks? Absolutely. The Blissett --

:44:47.:44:52.

the position is extremely clear. There was an exchange of

:44:53.:44:57.

correspondence from the Transport Secretary at the time and Carl

:44:58.:45:02.

Sargeant, the Welsh Transport Minister at the time. It made it

:45:03.:45:09.

clear. That was subsequently substantiated by the independent

:45:10.:45:14.

Office of Rail Regulation who have confirmed minutes of a meeting in

:45:15.:45:17.

which it was said that the Welsh Government will pay for the work. We

:45:18.:45:21.

in Westminster were astounded when all of a sudden the First Minister

:45:22.:45:26.

started to suggest that we were going to pay for all the work. That

:45:27.:45:30.

was never agreed. He knows it was never agreed. And interestingly,

:45:31.:45:34.

there was a meeting earlier this week that I attended with Italy win

:45:35.:45:37.

a hardware she made no mention of that suggestion. -- Edwina Hart. My

:45:38.:45:44.

concern is I think the Welsh Government have revisited the

:45:45.:45:46.

costings and they are concerned they cannot afford it. What I have been

:45:47.:45:50.

suggesting for some considerable time is that if they cannot afford

:45:51.:45:55.

it, come back and talk to London and try and find some way around it. And

:45:56.:46:00.

that is why I was glad to see Edwina Hart there. That is what she is

:46:01.:46:06.

trying to do. I think they have dropped that contention now. He told

:46:07.:46:11.

me in an interview with him six months ago. That was a

:46:12.:46:15.

straightforward trial. You have seen me correspondence because I have

:46:16.:46:18.

shown it to you. You know that there was an exchange of correspondence

:46:19.:46:21.

which confirmed the basis of that electrification. You had the meeting

:46:22.:46:28.

last week. Where will it go now? We are looking at further options for

:46:29.:46:31.

paying for the cost of ratification but it would have been so much

:46:32.:46:37.

easier instead of this nonsensical suggestion that the Welsh Government

:46:38.:46:41.

had said weeks ago that they think they have a problem with the

:46:42.:46:45.

funding. -- electrification. That is the way in -- a mature government

:46:46.:46:54.

should behave. I want to ask you about Nigel Evans, the former shadow

:46:55.:46:58.

Secretary of State for Wales, from Swansea, of course. He has been

:46:59.:47:04.

cleared in the court case. Does he have a critical future? Let me say

:47:05.:47:08.

that I have a huge amount of sympathy for Nigel and what I can

:47:09.:47:11.

only imagine is the anguish he has gone through. It has been a very

:47:12.:47:16.

difficult time for him. I know Nigel well and I know he's a good man. I

:47:17.:47:20.

certainly would like to see a critical future for Nigel. Nigel

:47:21.:47:24.

will be having discussions with the party after parliament returns after

:47:25.:47:28.

the recess and I personally very much hope that there will be a

:47:29.:47:32.

future for him. He is a good parliamentarian and he understands

:47:33.:47:34.

Parliament and I think Parliament would be richer for him continuing

:47:35.:47:40.

to work there. David Jones, thank you very much indeed. The body

:47:41.:47:45.

representing Welsh councils is calling for clarity on proposals to

:47:46.:47:50.

merge local authorities. In January, a commission set up by the Welsh

:47:51.:47:55.

Government recommended cutting the number of councils in Wales by

:47:56.:47:58.

around a half. But despite calling for action by Easter, there has been

:47:59.:48:01.

no agreement amongst the belittle parties. The Welshman -- Welsh local

:48:02.:48:08.

government Association says the uncertainty is potentially damaging

:48:09.:48:11.

for councils. It was always come to be a tough deadline to meet,

:48:12.:48:14.

agreement within three months on a plan to merge councils. There has

:48:15.:48:19.

been plenty of talking up the assembly but there is little doubt

:48:20.:48:21.

that the East attempt -- Easter deadline recommended will pass

:48:22.:48:26.

without significant steps forward. The commission published its report

:48:27.:48:30.

on the future of Welsh public services in January. The headline

:48:31.:48:33.

recommendation was a reduction in the number of cancels from 22 --

:48:34.:48:42.

councils from 22 to viewer. Without agreement between the parties in

:48:43.:48:47.

Cardiff Bay, it is clear that the process will not straightforward.

:48:48.:48:52.

Now the First Minister says he wants consensus by the summer. But

:48:53.:48:58.

deciding how many councils there should be and which one should merge

:48:59.:49:05.

will not be easy. What he wants is a Labour Party map. This is what

:49:06.:49:08.

happened with the last reorganisation of local government.

:49:09.:49:12.

And we cannot be put in a position where we have been asked to sign up

:49:13.:49:16.

to something which is agreed within the Labour Party which happens to

:49:17.:49:20.

suit the Labour Party. We can all agree that the status quo is not an

:49:21.:49:24.

option. But if we want to have a settled view on the future of local

:49:25.:49:27.

government then there has to be discussions about that between the

:49:28.:49:34.

political parties and not just the Labour Party deciding what is best

:49:35.:49:37.

for itself. The government is due to set out its position on the

:49:38.:49:40.

commission recommendations before the summer. And while it is

:49:41.:49:45.

important, it says, to move swiftly, it is essential to take the time

:49:46.:49:50.

necessary to get it right. It states that ongoing cross-party discussions

:49:51.:49:53.

are an important part of the process. And it says it is important

:49:54.:49:58.

a new council map is agreed as soon as possible. When there are jobs

:49:59.:50:04.

involved, councillors at stake that might lose seats, it is a different

:50:05.:50:08.

kettle of fish to move from the theory to the practical and

:50:09.:50:13.

practical politics is what it is about. And of course, Carwyn Jones

:50:14.:50:17.

is First Minister has got to deliver this. But he has to deliver it to a

:50:18.:50:21.

party when most of his activists are involved in local government. Change

:50:22.:50:27.

is not going to be easy to attain. Councils say they are waiting for a

:50:28.:50:30.

lead from the Welsh Government. Will the commission report gathered dust?

:50:31.:50:34.

That is up to Cardiff Bay politicians, they say. But

:50:35.:50:39.

uncertainty is damaging. It seems to me we are in a position where the

:50:40.:50:43.

Williams proposals are essentially contested by the little parties

:50:44.:50:47.

across Wales. They are contested within local government and that

:50:48.:50:51.

inevitably has slowed things down. Going back to the Easter deadline,

:50:52.:50:56.

it does look very optimistic, with hindsight. That said, I think we now

:50:57.:51:01.

need a very clear timescale for how the report is grown to be commended.

:51:02.:51:07.

We cannot... We have all these employees and we cannot have the

:51:08.:51:10.

sort of Damocles hanging over them for the next five or six years. The

:51:11.:51:15.

Easter deadline may have been optimistic that one of the members

:51:16.:51:18.

of the commission told me he is disappointed that the momentum built

:51:19.:51:21.

up when the report came out seems to have been lost. But the commission

:51:22.:51:26.

has done its work and now the focus is on the politicians. The First

:51:27.:51:32.

Minister says acting on the Williams commission recommendations is a test

:51:33.:51:36.

of his government. But reaching on changes -- agreement on changes are

:51:37.:51:40.

clear -- appeared to be as elusive as the Easter Bunny. Several weeks

:51:41.:51:45.

ago, the Swansea East MP Sian James announced she'd be leaving

:51:46.:51:47.

Westminster at the next General Election. You might think that the

:51:48.:51:51.

Labour MP was tired of politics but that isn't the case. She's been

:51:52.:51:54.

telling our reporter Bethan James that she isn't ruling out entering

:51:55.:51:58.

the world of politics again - though not at Westminster but at Cardiff

:51:59.:52:02.

Bay. Sian James one -- one the Swansea

:52:03.:52:09.

seat in 2005. She previously worked for Welsh women's aid but her

:52:10.:52:14.

interest in politics began when she began -- became involved in the

:52:15.:52:17.

miners' strike. When I met up with that in Westminster, she told me she

:52:18.:52:20.

was leaving Parliament but not bowing out of policy-making. I am

:52:21.:52:26.

very interested in the justice system and social justice. And I

:52:27.:52:29.

think there is ever so much happening and changing in Wales at

:52:30.:52:32.

the moment. There are great opportunities. We have a mature in

:52:33.:52:38.

democracy. We have the assembly. And I am very excited about what is

:52:39.:52:42.

happening around that. And as more powers were devolved to Cardiff Bay,

:52:43.:52:50.

I think there will be opportunities and gaps, in a way, where maybe if I

:52:51.:52:54.

took of those issues in Westminster, you could affect some change really,

:52:55.:53:01.

the delivery of Edward the then fulfilled by my colleagues down in

:53:02.:53:06.

Cardiff Bay. But I see a role, and opportunity. She says she has taken

:53:07.:53:12.

great pride that agree on new legislation on sunbeds and helping

:53:13.:53:17.

plant workers in that pensions campaign. But her heart has always

:53:18.:53:24.

been in Wales. I knew I was never going to be the sort of MP who could

:53:25.:53:27.

base myself in London and live here in London and then visit the

:53:28.:53:33.

constituency. It had to be the other way round for me. It had to be

:53:34.:53:38.

centred in the constituency and London would be the travel. And I

:53:39.:53:42.

always knew I would have to travel and I have travelled with other

:53:43.:53:46.

jobs. But I think I am ready now to be based nearer home, nearer my

:53:47.:53:51.

family and to be affecting change is really within my direct community.

:53:52.:53:56.

What about being a woman in Westminster? Do you feel it is

:53:57.:54:01.

harder? What has frustrated me about Westminster and I have said this is

:54:02.:54:07.

it is a little bit like quartz and Harry Potter. You come here and it

:54:08.:54:12.

has its own rhythm, its own pattern, nothing is done

:54:13.:54:19.

spontaneously. When you are sitting at home on your sofa, and you are

:54:20.:54:24.

shouting at the TV and you're saying, when I get to

:54:25.:54:28.

Westminster... When you get here, you discover that everything has a

:54:29.:54:33.

pattern. And that pattern has been established over centuries. I think

:54:34.:54:39.

if you are the sort of person who wants to get things done, it can be

:54:40.:54:52.

quite frustrating. You have to find a way around it. You have to find

:54:53.:54:57.

your way around whether you are male or female. It does not really

:54:58.:55:01.

matter. I think if you are a woman, you juggling lots of other things as

:55:02.:55:06.

well. But there's coming back to Wales full-time mean she is

:55:07.:55:10.

interested not just in assembly politics but actually in being an

:55:11.:55:14.

Assembly Member? It is not something I seriously thought about. I have

:55:15.:55:19.

not ruled it in or out. There is one thing I have learned as a

:55:20.:55:22.

politician, never say never because someone walls -- always what you

:55:23.:55:28.

said. But I am looking forward to a way in which I can make a difference

:55:29.:55:32.

in public life and I am quite excited by the fact that there will

:55:33.:55:36.

be opportunities. And what those opportunities are, I cannot tell at

:55:37.:55:40.

the moment. That I will not shut any doors at the moment. I will see what

:55:41.:55:43.

comes along. The former Commons deputy speaker, Nigel Evans, says

:55:44.:55:46.

the Crown Prosecution Service should pay his ?130,000 legal bill, after

:55:47.:55:49.

he was cleared of rape and sexual assault last week. The Swansea-born

:55:50.:55:53.

MP, who's a former Shadow Welsh Secretary, told a newspaper that the

:55:54.:55:57.

court battle cost him all his life savings. Joining us now from our

:55:58.:56:00.

Nottingham studio is a friend of Mr Evans - the former Montgomeryshire

:56:01.:56:17.

MP, Lembit Opik. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Clearly,

:56:18.:56:22.

Nigel Evans is extremely angry, judging by some of the reports in

:56:23.:56:26.

the newspapers today. Do you share that anger? Yes, I do. I think he

:56:27.:56:30.

has been dignified from beginning to end. A year of career wrecking hell

:56:31.:56:36.

ending where I was sure it would end up. It is no surprise he is angry.

:56:37.:56:43.

Surprising he is not more bitter. Let's look at it this way he was

:56:44.:56:48.

cleared of all seven charges and has been dragged through the papers day

:56:49.:56:51.

after day. Were accusations and he has chopped -- lost the job he

:56:52.:56:57.

loved. I am surprised he was able to hold it together as well as he has.

:56:58.:57:01.

We understand the chair of the Commons home affairs committee is

:57:02.:57:05.

going to call for a review into this case and other similar cases. Do you

:57:06.:57:09.

think that is a good idea? Yes, there are three things to look

:57:10.:57:15.

at, what is the burden of evidence? I was amazed that someone -- the

:57:16.:57:20.

police thought that someone like Nigel Evans could not possibly have

:57:21.:57:24.

committed these crimes and has been dragged through the courts.

:57:25.:57:28.

Secondly, it has cost him ?130,000 just to clear his name. And

:57:29.:57:33.

thirdly, the nature of anonymity, as you have described. And the

:57:34.:57:37.

suggestion is he has been punished in a terrible way, even though he

:57:38.:57:42.

did not do anything wrong. We have heard from the Director of Public

:57:43.:57:45.

Prosecutions service and she makes the point that they felt they had

:57:46.:57:50.

enough to make a reasonable case for a conviction but of course, the

:57:51.:57:55.

standards that a jury set are much higher than that. Let's look at how

:57:56.:58:03.

strong their case was. It was so weak that they had me as a

:58:04.:58:06.

prosecution witness. I thought it was a mistake when I first heard

:58:07.:58:10.

that. They had someone like me who thought Nigel was innocent sounding

:58:11.:58:16.

in the dock -- standing in the dock because they were desperate to

:58:17.:58:19.

cobble together this set of charges. One of the points that I think Nigel

:58:20.:58:23.

Evans rightly makes is there a seat that there is a series of individual

:58:24.:58:27.

accusations and they were trying to package it up as an overall case

:58:28.:58:31.

against him. The CPS really do have to look at themselves. They are in

:58:32.:58:36.

the dock now. And they need to explain why it is natural justice

:58:37.:58:41.

for them not to offer to pay back the ?130,000 at Nigel Evans spent.

:58:42.:58:49.

This is the so-called bundling up, putting in weaker allegations. What

:58:50.:58:54.

do you think should have happened in this case? It was a fishing

:58:55.:59:00.

expedition really and the press have come under attack for that sort of

:59:01.:59:03.

thing and it looks like the CPS were up to the same sort of tricks. We

:59:04.:59:07.

should have a much clearer understanding of the burden of

:59:08.:59:10.

proof, not simply a knee jerk reaction to the failures of the

:59:11.:59:14.

Jimmy Savile case. And we should be very clear that someone who is found

:59:15.:59:17.

innocent should not be effectively be paid a 130,000 fountain fine --

:59:18.:59:26.

?130,000 fine. I think people like Nigel Evans are not on a Level

:59:27.:59:33.

Playing Field. The right thing to do is not reveal the identity of a

:59:34.:59:37.

defendant in just the same way as the plaintiff 's were secured

:59:38.:59:41.

anonymity. Of course, if the person is found guilty afterwards, it is

:59:42.:59:46.

right to report that. But Nigel was effectively found guilty in the

:59:47.:59:50.

press. And now he has four days of coverage to clear his name. Have you

:59:51.:59:54.

spoken to him and what do you think is critical future is? I have. He is

:59:55.:00:00.

very emotional, understandably. He is trying to get his life together.

:00:01.:00:03.

If there was any justice, he would get his job as Deputy Speaker back.

:00:04.:00:08.

Thank you very much indeed. And that's all from us this week and for

:00:09.:00:12.

the next two Sundays. We're having a two week Easter break but when come

:00:13.:00:16.

back, we'll be in full European election mode. If you want more news

:00:17.:00:19.

today, there are regular updates on our online services in English and

:00:20.:00:23.

Welsh and on Radio Cymru and Radio Wales. Wales Today is on BBC One

:00:24.:00:27.

Wales at 6:50pm and Newyddion is on S4C at 5:50pm. For now though, it's

:00:28.:00:29.

back to Andrew. risk. We have run out of time. --

:00:30.:00:40.

particular candidates. Back to you, Andrew.

:00:41.:00:50.

The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the London Marathon, and MPs leave

:00:51.:00:52.

Westminster for their Easter break. Let's discuss what's coming up in

:00:53.:01:03.

the Week Ahead. We will get more of what we have

:01:04.:01:07.

just seen. Let's look back on the debate. What did we learn from the

:01:08.:01:12.

argument is? That it is going to bore and irritate whole lot of

:01:13.:01:15.

people, this election campaign. Four parties shouting at each other about

:01:16.:01:20.

things that most people do not know much about. They know very little

:01:21.:01:23.

about how the European Parliament works, what an MEP is supposed to

:01:24.:01:31.

do. A lot of heat and not a lot of light. I've updated well, all of

:01:32.:01:37.

them, but the net effect is not going to encourage people to go out

:01:38.:01:41.

and vote and not many do. One thing that struck me was that on Europe,

:01:42.:01:49.

the Labour and Lib Dem positions are not that far apart. They are pretty

:01:50.:01:53.

much the same. And yet the knocks lots of each other. I suppose they

:01:54.:01:57.

feel that they had to do that because that is the format. I'd

:01:58.:02:02.

agree with Polly. Their word UKIP and the Tories to attack two we try

:02:03.:02:08.

to make it exciting, and we know the issues are important. But people out

:02:09.:02:12.

there have not heard of these individuals. It is not very

:02:13.:02:17.

exciting. That is worrying because these are huge national questions

:02:18.:02:20.

for us. We need to find a way of making it more fun. People may not

:02:21.:02:27.

know these MEPs, they may not know the detail of the debate, but it is

:02:28.:02:31.

an issue on which people have strong opinions. It is a visceral thing for

:02:32.:02:36.

many people. Especially on the immigration issue. The debate took

:02:37.:02:38.

off and became more vociferous at that point. To a large extent, you

:02:39.:02:45.

wonder whether not only this European election but the eventual

:02:46.:02:48.

referendum will be a referendum on the issue of immigration and free

:02:49.:02:53.

movement. If we did not learn much from the argument, the thing we did

:02:54.:02:56.

learn is that the structure of these televised debate influences the

:02:57.:03:03.

outcome. One of the reasons that Nigel Farage did well in the debate

:03:04.:03:10.

is that in a two-man debate, each man has as good a chance as the

:03:11.:03:14.

other. If it is four people, one man can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn

:03:15.:03:19.

did well for a man who is not an elected politician yet. At times, 40

:03:20.:03:23.

came under attack and did not hold the line as well as you would

:03:24.:03:26.

expect. Does that create a perverse incentive for the main parties to

:03:27.:03:30.

agree to a four way debate before the general election? I do not think

:03:31.:03:35.

the David Cameron has nearly as much to worry about from a televised

:03:36.:03:38.

debate in the run-up to the elections than his spin doctors

:03:39.:03:42.

believe. When you put him up against Ed Miliband, and we have not

:03:43.:03:46.

actually seen Ed Miliband in that format, I think he will come off all

:03:47.:03:51.

right. This is an election which the polls would have us believe that the

:03:52.:03:57.

battle for first place is between UKIP and labour. It certainly is.

:03:58.:04:03.

Obviously, it is neck and neck and we will not know until we are

:04:04.:04:06.

closer. And it matters a lot to both of them. If Mr Miliband does not

:04:07.:04:12.

come first, that is not good news for the main opposition at this

:04:13.:04:17.

stage. Except to some extent all of the people will put it to one side

:04:18.:04:22.

and say that this is a bizarre election. A plague on both your

:04:23.:04:28.

houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not clear how much that translates into

:04:29.:04:34.

the next election. It is not too disastrous for Labour. It would be

:04:35.:04:39.

better if they came first. If Mr Miliband comes first, not a problem,

:04:40.:04:44.

but it becomes second and UKIP soars away, what are the consequences? I

:04:45.:04:49.

think there is a widespread expectation already at Westminster

:04:50.:04:52.

that UKIP is very likely to come first. If Ed Miliband fails to come

:04:53.:04:57.

first, there will not be a great deal of shock in the West Mr

:04:58.:05:01.

village. Else think what is remarkable about Ed Miliband is that

:05:02.:05:04.

despite consistently poor personal leadership approval ratings, the

:05:05.:05:10.

overall Labour poll is consistently very high. We have seen that budget

:05:11.:05:17.

blip, it seems to have taken us back to where we were before. Leadership

:05:18.:05:22.

is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was miles behind James Callaghan but in

:05:23.:05:25.

the end, it was the party politics that mattered more. If Mr Cameron

:05:26.:05:31.

comes third and the Tories come third, maybe a poor third, is it

:05:32.:05:36.

headless chicken time on the Tory backbenchers? It has often been said

:05:37.:05:41.

that the Tory Party has two modes, complacency and panic. You will see

:05:42.:05:47.

them shift into panic mode. By June, I think. Many of the stories in the

:05:48.:05:53.

sun will be about David Cameron's personal leadership and his grip on

:05:54.:05:57.

the party. There will be pressure on conference by the time that comes

:05:58.:06:00.

around. It is a natural consequence of being the incumbent party. The

:06:01.:06:07.

Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls today. It was widely thought that in

:06:08.:06:12.

the first and second debates, Nigel Farage won both. In retrospect, was

:06:13.:06:19.

the challenge strategy a disaster for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was

:06:20.:06:25.

because he had nothing to lose. But he is lower in the polls than when

:06:26.:06:31.

he started. He has not lost a great deal. The polls were quite often

:06:32.:06:37.

that low. I think it was a good thing to do. It raised his profile.

:06:38.:06:42.

It made him the leading party in. That may be a difficult place to

:06:43.:06:47.

be. That is how you end up with 7% in the polls. The reason he is

:06:48.:06:51.

fighting with Labour is that he knows very well that all he has to

:06:52.:06:55.

do is to get his votes back that have gone to Labour and labour have

:06:56.:06:58.

to fight hard to make sure that they do not go back. Every party looks to

:06:59.:07:04.

where it is going to get it support. If it is a wipe-out for the

:07:05.:07:09.

Lib Dems, and they lose all their MEPs, not saying that is going to

:07:10.:07:14.

happen but you could not rule it out for, are we back in Nick Clegg

:07:15.:07:20.

leadership crisis territory? One of the astonishing things about this

:07:21.:07:24.

Parliament is the relative absence of leadership speculation about Nick

:07:25.:07:27.

Clegg will stop at the first couple of years, his position seems

:07:28.:07:30.

tricky, but maybe that is because Chris Hughton is gone and he was the

:07:31.:07:35.

only plausible candidate. This cable is not getting any younger, to put

:07:36.:07:38.

it delicately. That was not delegate at all! And we have reached a

:07:39.:07:42.

desperate stage where Danny Alexander is talked about as a

:07:43.:07:45.

candidate. That was not delegate either! Maybe he is holding onto

:07:46.:07:50.

power the lack of alternatives. If they ended up with no MEPs at all,

:07:51.:07:56.

and a less than double digits score... With Danny Alexander, it is

:07:57.:08:02.

clear that Scotland, one way or another, will be moving further

:08:03.:08:05.

away. You could not have the leader of a national party be a Scot. But

:08:06.:08:11.

he does not have the following in the party. I'm glad you're liberal

:08:12.:08:15.

attitudes to immigration extends to me. I would not have been here for

:08:16.:08:21.

43 years. There will be leadership talk after that holes. It has been

:08:22.:08:27.

bubbling in the background, but you have to talk to the grass roots

:08:28.:08:32.

activists. -- after the polls. The grass roots activists are

:08:33.:08:37.

despairing. If things are bad, they lose their network of activists, who

:08:38.:08:39.

they need to fight the next election. I think you mean, not that

:08:40.:08:44.

you could have a Scot, but that it would be more difficult to have a

:08:45.:08:48.

Scot from a Scottish constituency. Absolutely. I think a Scottish

:08:49.:08:54.

constituency, so many things will be different. Or to hold the great

:08:55.:09:00.

offices of state. Let's come onto the Crown Prosecution Service is. It

:09:01.:09:04.

is an English institution. Where does the CPS and after losing yet

:09:05.:09:07.

another high-profile case come this time Nigel Evans? They had nine

:09:08.:09:12.

counts against him and they did not win on one. It is obviously very

:09:13.:09:19.

embarrassing. They will have a bit of explain to do but I guess the

:09:20.:09:22.

threshold for bringing these cases is high. There has to be considered

:09:23.:09:26.

at least a 50-50 chance of actually winning the case. We do not know

:09:27.:09:32.

what went on behind the scenes when they weighed up whether to bring the

:09:33.:09:34.

case. Nigel Evans makes an interesting point about whether it

:09:35.:09:38.

is legitimate to bundle together a number of stand-alone relatively

:09:39.:09:44.

weak accusations, and when you put them together to militantly, the CPS

:09:45.:09:49.

uses that to make a case. Is that a legitimate thing to do? He was a

:09:50.:09:53.

high-profile figure, not just because he was a Tory MP. He was the

:09:54.:10:01.

deputy speaker of the House. And yet the CPS are certainly the police, to

:10:02.:10:06.

begin with they did not have that many people to testify against him.

:10:07.:10:10.

And then they trawled for more. You wonder if they would have done that

:10:11.:10:14.

if it was not for the fact that he was a public figure. The trouble is,

:10:15.:10:17.

they are dammed if they do and dammed if they do not. Particularly

:10:18.:10:20.

with politicians and the reputation they have these days, if there is

:10:21.:10:23.

any suggestion that they let somebody off because they are a

:10:24.:10:26.

high-profile politician, and they are saying that about Cyril Smith,

:10:27.:10:34.

that is the accusation. A strange story. Most unlikely and very

:10:35.:10:37.

bizarre. But that is the accusation. If there is any with of that, I can

:10:38.:10:42.

see why the CPS says, we better let the courts try this one. Also, they

:10:43.:10:46.

are in trouble overrated cases because their success rate on

:10:47.:10:54.

bringing people to court for rape is so thin. When it looked as if his

:10:55.:10:57.

accusers were not really accusing him, it looks quite weak. You cannot

:10:58.:11:01.

help but feeling that they are falling over backwards now in

:11:02.:11:06.

high-profile cases because of their abject and total failure over Jimmy

:11:07.:11:10.

Savile. I think this is exactly the kind of case that happens when you

:11:11.:11:14.

are trying to make a point or redeem a reputation or change a culture.

:11:15.:11:19.

All of these big things. As opposed to what criminal justice is supposed

:11:20.:11:22.

to be about, which is specific crimes and specific evidence

:11:23.:11:25.

matching those crimes. The CPS has no copper a fleet joined in this

:11:26.:11:29.

list of public and situations that has taken a fall over the past five

:11:30.:11:32.

or six years. We have had Parliament, the newspapers, the

:11:33.:11:36.

police will stop I think this is as bad a humiliation as any of those

:11:37.:11:39.

because it is Innocent people suffering. You are the most recent,

:11:40.:11:43.

being a lobby correspondent in Westminster, and we now see on

:11:44.:11:47.

Channel 4 News that basically, Westminster is twinned with Sodom

:11:48.:11:53.

and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this true? It is all rather the red. I do

:11:54.:11:58.

not move in those circles. And you were in the lobby at one stage? Not

:11:59.:12:04.

that long ago. Is it right. Is it right to be twinned with Sodom and

:12:05.:12:07.

Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his opinion. Being technically a member

:12:08.:12:13.

of the lobby, I can observe some of this stuff. And what surprises me is

:12:14.:12:19.

that journalists, when the complain about Sodom and Gomorrah, write

:12:20.:12:23.

themselves out of it. It is as if it is just MPs. We are unalloyed and

:12:24.:12:28.

unvarnished. Actually, the fact is it has always been a bit like Sodom

:12:29.:12:33.

and tomorrow. Of course it has. Think about how we have had wave

:12:34.:12:36.

after wave of stories and scandals. But less of it recently. It was I

:12:37.:12:40.

think that attitudes have slightly changed. I'll also think that if you

:12:41.:12:45.

get 650 people in any organisation and you put that much scrutiny on

:12:46.:12:51.

them, you will find an awful lot going on in most people's officers

:12:52.:12:58.

of a scurrilous nature. Even in the BBC

:12:59.:13:40.

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