Browse content similar to 04/05/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Walls are being | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
re-painted in Belfast as Gerry Adams begins his fourth day in police | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
custody in connection with one of the most brutal and shocking murders | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
of the Troubles. That's our top story. | :00:50. | :01:00. | |
He may have got egg on his face this week but Nigel Farage is a serious | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
electoral threat in this month's elections. I'll ask the Conservative | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
Party Chairman Grant Shapps how worried he is. | :01:07. | :01:08. | |
And we're on the trail of Nick Clegg. You were voted the best | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
Later in the programme... likely to be a good | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
Later in the programme... We start our coverage of the | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
European elections in Wales. And the campaign against Scottish | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
independence says keeping the UK intact is in Wales' interests. | :01:26. | :01:27. | |
independence says keeping the UK and independence. We have a table | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
full of Euro candidates here to debate what it means for London. | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
business - Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. They'll be | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
throwing metaphorical rotten eggs into the twittersphere. | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
First this morning - Gerry Adams, President of Sinn Fein, has spent a | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
fourth night in police custody after he was arrested in connection with | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
the killing of Jean McConville more than 40 years ago. Sinn Fein has | :01:57. | :02:09. | |
claimed that the arrest is politically motivated coming, as it | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
does, during local and European election campaigns. Northern | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
Ireland's deputy first minister, Martin McGuinness, has indicated he | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
might review the party's support for policing in the province if Gerry | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
Adams is charged. The Jean McConville murder was one of the | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
most notorious cases of the Troubles. | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
The widowed mother of ten was kidnapped from her home in December | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
1972, never to be seen alive again. The IRA denied involvement but in | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
1999 admitted it had murdered her and several others, known as the | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
Disappeared. Before his death, the former IRA commander Brendan Hughes | :02:46. | :02:47. | |
pointed the finger at Gerry Adams, claiming: | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
In April this year, either Bell was charged with aiding and abetting the | :02:56. | :03:09. | |
murder. -- Ivor Bell. Gerry Adams has always insisted he is innocent | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
of any part in the abduction and killing all burial of Mrs | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
McConville. We were hoping to speak to the | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
Northern Ireland Secretary, Theresa Villiers, but having agreed to do an | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
interview with us this morning, she pulled out. But we are joined from | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
Belfast by Sinn Fein's Alex Maskey. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. And | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
the police just doing their job by questioning Gerry Adams? Gerry Adams | :03:38. | :03:49. | |
said publicly some time ago that he was available to speak to the | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
police, but that is not what this is about at the moment, because what we | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
have here is clearly evidence in our mind of political interference in | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
what should be due process. Gerry Adams made it clear some time ago he | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
wanted to speak to the police, it was available at any time, and yet | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
that request was not taken up until three weeks into an election and we | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
believe that was deliberately orchestrated by a small number of | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
people. What evidence can you present this morning that proves | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
that claim? The direct circumstances Gerry Adams finds himself in at the | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
moment, take that in stark contrast when they have dealt with members of | :04:37. | :04:46. | |
the British Army for instance... That is just circumstantial. The | :04:47. | :04:55. | |
PSNI know that the soldiers involved in that and a number of other | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
high-profile killings of citizens here, and not one of those people | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
has been arrested. In fact any of the people who were interviewed were | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
interviewed by request. There was a stark contrast, in terms of how they | :05:11. | :05:21. | |
have dealt with the British military involving state killings. We haven't | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
got too much time. Sinn Fein said it would review its support for the | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
PSNI if Gerry Adams is charged. That sounds like political interference | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
in the police process. It's not because we have a clear mandate from | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
the people who elect us. Policing has been an important part of the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
peace process here for many years, Sinn Fein plays an important role in | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
local policing partnerships. We negotiate to make sure we have | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
powers transferred here to elected representatives in the north. It is | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
a long way to go before we have policing highly accountable, and | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
making sure they deliver a very impartial service. How will he react | :06:11. | :06:27. | |
if Gerry Adams is charged? I am still trying to get a clear answer. | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
If Gerry Adams is charged, will you withdraw support for the Northern | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
Ireland police service? We view this as a serious situation and a serious | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
ongoing situation and we will monitor how this pans out. We have a | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
very important role to play to support the police service here. We | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
have done consistently, worked with them on a daily basis, but we will | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
not accept political interference by a small number of people in the | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
police who are undermining the police. We will not accept political | :07:05. | :07:12. | |
policing. If there was evidence, and I emphasise the word if, because we | :07:13. | :07:18. | |
have seen none, but if there were evidence to justify Gerry Adams | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
being charged, why should he not be charged? It is my understanding from | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the family of Gerry Adams that there has not been a single shred of | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
evidence put forward. I understand that, but if there was evidence, why | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
should he not be charged? You put that caveat yourself and then you | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
expect me to speculate, there is no way I will do that. The fact of the | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
matter is there hasn't been one single shred of evidence put to | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Gerry Adams in the last few days, in fact what has been put to him is a | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
range of issues of newspaper cuttings, books, statements made | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
from people, including from people who didn't want their statements | :08:06. | :08:07. | |
released until they have died. who didn't want their statements | :08:08. | :08:18. | |
was charged, again I emphasise the word if, does the police process | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
fall apart? The police process is a fragile entity, it requires work and | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
we have been saying this publicly and privately with the Irish and | :08:31. | :08:31. | |
British and privately with the Irish and | :08:32. | :08:46. | |
process has to be nurtured and developed. We are not out of the | :08:47. | :08:48. | |
woods yet. From a Republican point of view we have been working flat | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
out. I just wanted a quick answer to my question, is a yes or no? What | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
question I asking me? Is the peace process in jeopardy? It is fragile | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
and I am not going to have words put into my mouth but I don't want to | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
use. It has to be worked out and nurtured. Thank you for joining us. | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
Nick Watt, you were a Northern Ireland correspondent like myself in | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
days gone by. Where is this going to go? It shows how challenging the | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
peace process is because on the one hand you have the unspeakable pain | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
of the McConville family, but you also have the danger of not having | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
mechanisms to deal with the past. South Africa is a good example, you | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
have to have some mechanism to deal with the past because if you don't, | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
you are going to have, as Sinn Fein have now, someone in a police cell | :09:48. | :09:58. | |
but you don't have the arrests of the Bloody Sunday soldiers. | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
Paramilitary prisoners were released after two years... We have seen no | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
action against somebody accused of the Hyde Park bombings, it is not a | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
one-way street. We have the decommissioning of IRA weapons by | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
the IRA, therefore destroying crucial evidence. You have these | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
inconsistencies because you don't have an mechanism for dealing with | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
the past, but doing that is really difficult because of the pain of | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
real people. Don't you get a feeling that here in London they are hoping | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
he will not be charged? Definitely because it would be nice if | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
everything went away, but the civil case of the family is taken out of | :10:46. | :10:54. | |
the hands of the police. You can see here a real failure in Westminster | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
to see this as anything other than settled. David Cameron we know sees | :10:58. | :11:06. | |
himself as a chairman. I was speaking to a friend in Northern | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
Ireland who said he has never met Gerry Adams and I think this is very | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
revealing. They consider this as a settled issue that will not trouble | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
Westminster again. It would be, but the relatives of the disappeared | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
don't want it to be settled. This points to the reality that the | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
Belfast agreement probably had to be done, but the moral price at which | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
it was purchased was far greater than we were willing to admit during | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
the euphoria. For a country that prides itself by the rule of law to | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
tolerate the early release of prisoners and former pal and | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
military -- paramilitaries, I think was a very serious matter. As for | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
the PSNI, it only exists because its predecessor failed to command the | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
confidence of the nationalist community. It is a very big deal if | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
even the PSNI ends up falling into the same trap. We have to is leave | :12:10. | :12:21. | |
it there I'm afraid. It was the Conservative's local election | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
campaign launch on Friday, and what did David Cameron focus on? Burning | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
local issues like the state of our roads, rubbish collection or care of | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
the elderly? No. It was Europe. The Prime Minister re-iterated again his | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
promise of an in-out referendum on our membership of the EU in 2017. | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
And it's being reported this morning that he will share a platform with | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
Nigel Farage in a pre-general election debate. Here's what the | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
UKIP leader had to say about the issue when he was on the Marr Show | :12:44. | :12:51. | |
this morning with Ed Miliband. David Cameron very often makes these vague | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
promises, then doesn't deliver afterwards. I don't think he has any | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
intention of allowing me into any of these debates. Perhaps Ed Miliband | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
wants to debate? We have got to have the TV debates as we did join the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
last general election. I think David Cameron is doing everything he can | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
to wriggle out of them. It is up to the broadcasters but whether they | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
invite Nigel. My main desire is that the debates go ahead. We are joined | :13:24. | :13:35. | |
now by Grant Shapps. Will he be included? The debates were not | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
without problems, they took place during the campaign period and | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
disrupted the flow of the campaign, taking it out of the regions, people | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
getting to speak to the leaders so a longer period for that would be | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
helpful. I think they are good idea and they should go ahead, but all of | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
the negotiation about who is involved is yet to happen. So it is | :14:01. | :14:06. | |
not a done deal that Nigel Farage will be included? That needs to be | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
negotiated with the TV companies. The Conservatives believe we should | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
have debates, but exactly the format and the timing, all of the -- that | :14:16. | :14:24. | |
will be debated in the autumn, but first we have European elections, | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
the Queen 's speech and a Scottish referendum. The local election | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
campaign was launched on Friday. Why did you talk more about Europe than | :14:38. | :14:46. | |
local councils? Both are important. The local elections are critically | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
important for people, their local services. It is easy to forget, for | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
example, that the council tax has been largely frozen since this | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
Government came to power, a big contrast to Dublin under the | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
previous Labour government. So why did you go on and on about Europe? | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
Let me show you the poster used to launch your local election campaign. | :15:13. | :15:21. | |
There it is, and in-out referendum on Europe, the day of the local | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
elections, where is the word local? Is it in small print? I hear what | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
you're saying, I am happy to be here to talk about the local elections. | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
But you are right, they are on the same day, and not many people know | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
that only by voting conservative can you get an in-out referendum. -- | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
Conservative. UKIP cannot deliver, we can, it is the same date, so | :15:44. | :15:52. | |
people... This was the launch of the local election campaign. Why does | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
the Prime Minister have to keep on promising something he has already | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
promised? The actual referendum would be in 2017. He promised it | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
before, he keeps repeating it because he knows people don't really | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
trust him. I think it is a question of the fact that, actually, unless | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
you remind people that the pledges there, that the only way to get an | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
in-out referendum is to vote for it, this is a critical moment at | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
which we need people to vote for that referendum if they want it. It | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
is not the case, as I saw this morning, being said by Nigel Farage, | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
that a referendum was promised before and not delivered. There was | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
no referendum in the last manifesto. There will be in the next one. There | :16:39. | :16:46. | |
was a cast-iron guarantee, in the Sun in 2006. Let's just clear that | :16:47. | :16:54. | |
up... Once the Lisbon Treaty... In the Sun article, he said, we will | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
have a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. Clearly, because that treaty | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
had been passed before the general election, it is difficult to have a | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
referendum on something in the past. We joined Europe in the 1970s, | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
having a referendum on that! Look, that is about the future. Our | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
relationship with Europe is absolutely critical. Most people in | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
this country feel, I was not old enough to vote in that referendum, | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
most of those who voted, they voted for a Common Market, that is not | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
what we have got. We want to continue the work we have been doing | :17:33. | :17:40. | |
in the EU Budget, what did UKIP do? They voted against it. We want more | :17:41. | :17:43. | |
of those powers brought home, and we will put it to a referendum, and | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
people will have to vote Conservative to get it. We have been | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
looking at new research, almost two thirds of Conservative members are | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
considering voting for UKIP, almost two thirds. I have a simple message | :17:57. | :18:04. | |
here, which is this. If you vote for UKIP... Can we have it up? 30% are | :18:05. | :18:13. | |
likely, 30% are possible. That is why it is important we are making | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
these arguments. If you vote for UKIP, you are voting to take us | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
further away from returning powers to this country, further from a | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
referendum. It is support for Ed Miliband becoming Prime Minister, | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
and he will do exactly what Labour have always done - hand away powers, | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
and away the rebate for nothing in return, giving Europe even more so | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
over the day-to-day affairs in Britain. Why are so many people | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
considering voting UKIP? It is to hold your feet to the fire, they do | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
not trust you on a referendum, so they will vote UKIP to force you to | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
tap in your line. We have a very tough line. If I had said four years | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
ago that this government would manage to cut the overall EU | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
budget, would take us out of the bailout fund that Labour got us | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
into, passing a law that no more powers can go to Europe without a | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
referendum, if I had said that, people would say, I do not believe | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
it will happen. Not only have we done these things, we are promising | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
and in-out referendum, and the only way to get it is to vote | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
Conservative. Nigel Farage has said, we can't change anything in | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
Europe, and it is no wonder that the president of the European Commission | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
has said, we love having these UKIP MEPs, because they don't turn up and | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
vote, apart from when they vote against the cut in the budget. It | :19:38. | :19:43. | |
goes beyond UKIP in your party, because this research also showed | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
that those Conservative members most likely to vote for UKIP, they said | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
they do not feel valued or respected by their own leadership, and they | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
regard David Cameron as ideological eat more remote from them than UKIP. | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
What I would say is look at that list... Let me take that step | :20:03. | :20:11. | |
further. What people need our series solutions to serious problems. When | :20:12. | :20:19. | |
people vote for a UKIP MEP, I will say, which one of the 40% of the | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
MEPs who got in for UKIP last time are you voting for, the ones above | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
left or defected, the ones have gone to jail? 40% have ended up not | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
delivering. People have a right to know what to expect when they vote | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
in these elections. They can look at our record at home, and this goes to | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
the point you have raised about what we have done in Britain to get this | :20:43. | :20:48. | |
economy back on track, recover from Labour's recession. We are prepared | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
to take those decisions in Europe as well. Presumably, active | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
Conservative members, they know that, so why do they not feel valued | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
by the leadership? I spend time going up and down the country | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
meeting Conservative members, and they are on the doorstep, last | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
weekend 150 out in Enfield campaigning for the European and | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
local elections... Why are they keen on UKIP? When I meet somebody who | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
says that, not necessarily a member... Have you met members of | :21:25. | :21:32. | |
say they will vote UKIP? No, but a vote for UKIP is... Do not do it, | :21:33. | :21:41. | |
you will end up with Labour having more control, handing away powers to | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
Europe. 51-year-old meeting members who say they will vote UKIP, you | :21:48. | :21:53. | |
must be out of touch. -- if you are not meeting members. Some of your | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
members are thinking of voting UKIP. I spend huge amount of time | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
travelling around, I just told you about this action day in Enfield, | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
where we had an enormous turnout. Those members were on the doorsteps | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
pointing out that you can only get reform in Europe by voting | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
Conservative. Labour and the Lib Dems will not deliver, UKIP can't, | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
Conservatives will. You have not got that message across, because a | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
YouGov poll shows, on Europe, who has the best policies? Tories 18%, | :22:27. | :22:35. | |
Labour 19%, UKIP 27%. On the economy, Tories 27%, Labour 23, UKIP | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
4. Why don't you shut up about Europe and talk about the economy? | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
Look, on the 27th of May, we have European elections, as well as local | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
elections. If I don't talk about the European elections, you would say | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
what you said at the beginning about not talking about the local | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
elections! These are serious elections, and the point I am tried | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
to make is that the issues at stake are not peripheral, they are not | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
unimportant. Our MEPs have been battling to cut red tape from a | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
European level on small businesses, the same thing this government has | :23:12. | :23:13. | |
been doing for small businesses domestic league, where for example | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
every small business owner watching this show knows they have got ?2000 | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
back in employment announced on national insurance contributions. We | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
are doing it at home, we are doing it in Europe, and it is important to | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
tie that together. Ireland that Mr Cameron saying, you should stop | :23:32. | :23:45. | |
banging on about Europe... -- I remember. This is before the last | :23:46. | :23:55. | |
general election, as in days for the Lib Dems, 18%. Even then, you didn't | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
win the election, and now you are only three or four points ahead, it | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
doesn't look good for you, does it? Even then, the poll did not turn out | :24:05. | :24:11. | |
to be what it was on the day. No, that is what happens, that is the | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
voting intentions now! You are in a worse position than a year before | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
the last election, which you didn't win. We are almost proving the point | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
that you can take a clip at any moment in time, not sounding like a | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
politician, but the only poll that matters is on the day. In just over | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
a year's time, people will have a completely different picture to look | :24:36. | :24:40. | |
at than these opinion polls. We have an economy from being a basket | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
case, the great Labour recession knocking 7% of this economy, hurting | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
every family, to a point where we the fastest-growing economy in the | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
developed world. In a year's time, I hope people will see that we are the | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
people who've taken the difficult decisions, got the economy to the | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
right place, more security for you and your family. Do not give the car | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
keys back to the people who crashed it in the first place. If I had a | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
pound for every time I have heard that! It is clearly not getting | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
through. On the Pfizer attempted of AstraZeneca, Mr Miliband called this | :25:16. | :25:23. | |
morning for a tougher public interest test such big takeovers. Do | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
you agree with that or not? Let me be absolutely clear, if there is any | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
kind of joining, we are in favour of British jobs, British aren't deep, | :25:35. | :25:42. | |
expanding our pharmaceutical sector. -- R But what Mr Mallon and wants | :25:43. | :25:55. | |
to do with rent caps, he is anti-business. -- Mr Miliband. He | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
wants to take us back to the bad old those. -- bad old days. Should there | :26:00. | :26:11. | |
be a bigger public interest test? We have seen some takeovers that people | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
have criticised, but others, like Bentley, Land Rover, which have been | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
very successful. Should there be a tougher test?! We will have tests | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
that ensured this get-together becomes a great Anglo-American | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
project, or it doesn't happen, but the Miliband approach is simply to | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
be anti-business, anti-jobs and anti-job security. Grant Shapps, | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
thank you. A challenging week for the Liberal | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
Democrats with a local election campaign overshadowed by another row | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
with the Conservatives about knife crime. Adam has spent the day with | :26:46. | :26:52. | |
Nick Clegg on the campaign trail. How nice! Nick Clegg is taking me on | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
a political mini break to the Cotswolds. Yes, we are getting the | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
train. He wants to highlight what his party is doing in local | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
government, and a personal passion of his in Europe. Graham Watson, the | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
Lib Dem MEP for the south-west, has been running a campaign to have | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
prunes recognised as a laxative. Is that Lib Dems battling for Britain | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
in Europe? It is not our front page manifesto commitment! It is one of | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
many things that Graham does, he does many other things. In fact, he | :27:24. | :27:32. | |
is a good example of an MEP who took a pioneering role, for instance, in | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
making sure... There is the proven world, but also the crime-fighting | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
role. -- prune. He has done work to make sure that when British | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
criminals flee justice, we can bring them back. And he has promoted | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
prunes! First stop, a gorgeous country pub, but it turns out | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
everyone is a journalist or a very on message activist. Dark days, | :27:57. | :28:02. | |
being a Lib Dem in the last few years? Strangely not. If you find | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
you are a Lib Dem deep down, you do not get that disheartened, because | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
you know that, locally, you are doing so well for the people that | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
you live next door to that, actually, I find I am almost | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
impervious to what happens on a national level. I am mayor of | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
Cirencester. Have you taken any leadership lessons from Nick Clegg, | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
inspiring new in your leadership of Cirencester? I think what he has | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
demonstrated his patience. It has been a tough time, he has taken a | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
lot of flak, and as the mayor of a town, lots of people agree with you | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
and a fair few don't. You are a full on mayor, he is just a Deputy Prime | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
Minister, do you outrank him? I don't think so, he is in government, | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
I am not. So our there any normal people in here? We are from | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
Swindon, you cannot get more abnormal. Are you a big fan of his? | :29:00. | :29:07. | |
No! What has he done wrong? I don't believe in his views at all. Where | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
has he got to? Nigel Farage would have had a pint! At this time in the | :29:12. | :29:20. | |
morning a copy was more appropriate. I have no time for a drink of any | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
kind, because now we are off to look at a local traffic blackspot. This | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
is amazing, like a Lib Dem election leaflet brought to life, Lib Dems | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
pointing at a road. High-vis jackets! Next we had to giggle full | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
bath, but there will be no Regency sightseeing for us, oh no, Nick is | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
taking us to an abandoned wilderness. We have just had a | :29:45. | :29:54. | |
health and safety briefing, we have been told to look out for | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
dive-bombing seagulls and an angry fox. That is the sort of thing Nick | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
Clegg has to put up with. He wants to talk about the economy but he has | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
to dodge the day's beat new story, letters leaked by a Tory suggesting | :30:09. | :30:13. | |
that Lib Dems are soft on knife crime. Isn't that a new kind of | :30:14. | :30:24. | |
warfare? I just think it is silly. They may think they are clever by | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
catching some headlines but they are not helping people who worry about | :30:29. | :30:38. | |
knife crime, like I do. We work together... Just like the | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
Coalition! This is a co-working space where different businesses | :30:44. | :30:45. | |
share the same office. My time with space where different businesses | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
the Deputy Prime Minister is drawing to a close. We haven't talked about | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
the most important story of the week, that you were voted the best | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
looking party leader and the most likely to be a good cook. Right, | :30:59. | :31:08. | |
this is news to me and I can guarantee you that my scepticism of | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
opinion polls has just been confirmed. Just as well because the | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
more serious polls don't look great for him or his party. Goodbye, and | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
thanks for the offer of a ride home! | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
He is still walking. Malcolm Bruce joins us now. According to Lib Dem | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
briefing documents, you are likely to choose -- lose a big chunk of | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
your MEPs. If you lose a lot, what would that say about a party that | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
boasts of its pro-Europe credentials? It would be | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
disappointing because we have the most hard-working MEPs. The worry | :31:51. | :31:58. | |
that we have is that people think the European Parliament is not | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
important but it takes decisions that affect us. They would be | :32:02. | :32:10. | |
disappointing for Britain as well as the Liberal Democrats. Isn't the | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
problem that the more you bang on about your pro-European credentials, | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
the more you slip in the polls? I do think so, we have two weeks to go | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
and we are campaigning extremely hard. You are forced in the polls. I | :32:25. | :32:36. | |
can tell you there are people out there who do believe Britain should | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
stay in the EU and they are worried that other parties will take us out. | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
The Liberal Democrats are clear, we want to stay in, we will work for | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
reform and do it effectively. If you lose the Liberal Democrats, | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
Britain's influence in Europe will be weakened. Your track record in | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
Europe shows you have been spectacularly wrong again and again. | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
In your 2009 manifesto you said the European Central Bank and the euro | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
have been tried and tested over ten years providing a clear picture of | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
the benefits of Eurozone membership and that proved to be nonsense. It | :33:18. | :33:22. | |
was nonsense everywhere. Every developed bank in the world was | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
tried and tested and failed. Europe may not be perfect, but the question | :33:29. | :33:34. | |
people have to decide is if we are going to leave Europe and be | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
isolated on RM, or use our influence to reform it from inside. We have | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
allies, you work with them, that is something the Lib Dems do better | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
than any other parties. Your 2004 manifesto, you claim that being | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
outside the euro would lead to job losses and reduced prosperity. You | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
were just plain wrong, weren't you? Yes, but the reason is that to some | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
extent the euro did not observe any rules and regulations when it was | :34:09. | :34:16. | |
set up. That is why we never recommended Britain should join at | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
the outset because the criteria had not been met. In 2001 Nick Clegg was | :34:21. | :34:28. | |
writing to the Financial Times... Your track record is important. He | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
wrote that the Tisch monetary policy is not all it is cracked up to be. | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
Britain would gain greater control over its affairs by joining the | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
euro. How wrong can he be? We have always argued that the currency had | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
to abide by strict criteria. It hasn't done so and that is one of | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
the reasons it has failed. We recognise there is no future for | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
Britain joining the euro and we are not advocating it. Lets put your | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
2010 manifesto on the screen. I didn't say it was not our long-term | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
interest. If Europe succeeds as an entity, if the euro becomes one of | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
the world leading currencies, there will come a point when it may be | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
justified. In the circumstances we are in the moment, there is no | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
recommended timescale. Let's get this right. Despite the Eurozone | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
crisis which has cost millions of jobs, countries that were teetering | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
on the brink of bankruptcy, the Eurozone now facing stagnation and | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
some countries on the brink of deflation, you still won't rule out | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
Britain joining? We are ruling it out in the foreseeable future. You | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
can miss the point that we are working as a coalition partner in | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
government that has secured recovery for the UK, and working as Liberal | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
Democrats in the parliament that have cut back the European budget in | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
cooperation with others. What would the world look like if it were right | :36:15. | :36:21. | |
for Britain to join the euro? You have 27 states at the moment, with | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
too many countries still struggling to meet the criteria so until you | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
have a strong and cohesive enough single Eurozone in which all the | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
countries can meet that criteria, Britain is better off out. So a more | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
centralised Eurozone, that is what you would like Britain to join? No, | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
because it can only happen by consent. Any circumstances in which | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
any further powers would be transferred from the UK to the EU, | :36:52. | :37:00. | |
we would support a referendum. You have just said that for the Eurozone | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
to work, it has to be more centralised and you said if that | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
happens, that is what Britain would join. I didn't say that, I said it | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
would require the consent of all member states to agree to the | :37:14. | :37:20. | |
criteria. We certainly do not envisage joining in the foreseeable | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
future. Since you are the proud party of in, why weren't you just | :37:25. | :37:33. | |
give us a referendum on in or out? Because it has to have a context. | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
What David Cameron is doing is dangerous because I think the major | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
players like Britain and France are not keen on the idea of being | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
bullied into reforms on the instigation of just one member state | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
which is threatening possibility to withdraw. They will have to agree to | :37:51. | :37:58. | |
rules... Just have it now. Do you want in or out? To have a referendum | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
against no background is to put it out of context. We are in the middle | :38:04. | :38:09. | |
of a crisis, a year away from the general election. We have made it | :38:10. | :38:17. | |
clear... You said we are in the middle of the Eurozone crisis? So we | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
are not in the middle of it? What's the middle? The reality is that the | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
Western world has gone through a deep crisis. The UK is coming out of | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
it, the Eurozone is coming out of it. Greece have been able to borrow | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
on the markets in recent weeks which is a sign of success. It is in our | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
interest is the Eurozone succeeds and recovers and we should be part | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
of it but not necessarily on the same conditions as everyone else. | :38:46. | :38:51. | |
The Liberal Democrats work with others to deliver Britain's | :38:52. | :38:54. | |
interests and if they are not there, their interests will be undermined. | :38:55. | :39:01. | |
You are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland | :39:02. | :39:03. | |
now. Hello and on the Sunday Politics | :39:04. | :39:17. | |
Wales, the campaign against an independent Scotland tells us is in | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
Wales's interest for Scots to vote No in their independence referendum. | :39:21. | :39:26. | |
And the European elections are a little under three weeks away. We | :39:27. | :39:34. | |
will take a closer look at all the parties' sales pitches - starting | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
with the Welsh Liberal Democrats. But first, that referendum on | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
Scottish independence. On September 18, Scots go to the | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
polls. We have already heard from the Yes campaign. Scotland's Deputy | :39:47. | :39:55. | |
First Minister Nicola Sturgeon told us in March that Wales could be | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
better off if Scotland left the union. What does the No camp think | :40:00. | :40:01. | |
about that? I have been speaking to Labour's | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
Shadow Scottish Secretary Margaret Curran, from the Better Together | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
campaign. This week, her party leader Ed Miliband was in Cardiff, | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
where he said the Welsh government had made a strong case for extra | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
funding from the Treasury. We will hear more from Mrs Curran about what | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
Labour's plans for funding reform? But first, I asked her that, with | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
the Yes campaign catching up in the opinion poll, was the No camp | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
struggling to get its message across? No, there has been a small | :40:25. | :40:35. | |
shift in the opinion polls, but support for the union is well | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
advanced in Scotland. I do think the argument we're better together has | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
traction with the Scottish people and there are positive reasons why | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
the Scottish people understand that. We have a strong Scottish | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
parliament, but have the benefits of working in partnership with the | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
other nations within the United Kingdom. You see positive reasons, | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
but the campaign has been criticised for being too negative? As you know, | :41:07. | :41:17. | |
the definition of scaremongering is asking Alex Salmond a question he | :41:18. | :41:24. | |
cannot answer. But we are asking questions and of the yes campaign | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
cannot answer man, that is not negative. I think a lot of Scottish | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
people see there are risks for the yes campaign. By definition, | :41:34. | :41:42. | |
encouraging people to vote no is a negative thing in the danger is that | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
you end up skidding people, by losing your place in the European | :41:47. | :41:55. | |
Union, you lose your pensions. I think that is true. We do have a | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
situation where the yes campaign cannot explain what currency we | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
would have, he was found out not to be telling the truth in relation to | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
our membership of the European Union. All these things matter. For | :42:11. | :42:17. | |
that to be dismissed the scaremongering does not deserve to | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
be part of the debate in Scotland. There are very positive reasons why | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
we should remain part of the United Kingdom. I want to work in | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
solidarity with people in England and Wales and when we have done that | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
in the past, we have done great things. Not least in the National | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
Health Service, founded by a Welshman, which has a fantastic | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
benefits in Scotland. We have a strong Scottish parliament, but we | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
can work across the rest of the United Kingdom to our mutual benefit | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
and that is why we are Better Together. Why does the no campaign | :42:55. | :43:08. | |
describe itself as the underdogs? I think perhaps the reason you have | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
outlined, because there is no doubt the Scottish government are in power | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
and they have used all the resources, and someone whether they | :43:19. | :43:26. | |
have improperly, but we have to make a strong case, even if we are up | :43:27. | :43:34. | |
against the government machine. The CBI in Scotland was in difficulty | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
about registering as a no. The house does not appear to be an order, the | :43:41. | :43:49. | |
way done no campaign. There was a Scottish National party press | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
release in relation to that. There is no doubt that the business sector | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
in Scotland is raising real questions about the validity of the | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
yes campaign. We are about to move into formal campaigning and there | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
will be a gear change around campaigning in Scotland. When I am | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
out and about, they want to know the facts and figures, they do not want | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
to talk about the process issues all the time. We should be focusing on | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
what is in the best interests of the Scottish people, our business | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
community, the arts community, tackling poverty. I think the | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
conclusion will be that we are Better Together. People here are | :44:30. | :44:40. | |
wondering what it will be for people in Wales and the result of a yes | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
fraud. Could there be a change to the Barnett formula if there is a no | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
vote in Scotland? There will be no change to the Barnett formula. We | :44:54. | :45:02. | |
recognise there are specific issues relating to both Scotland and Wales. | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
But our policy is absolutely clear, we want to address the issue of | :45:07. | :45:15. | |
money to Wales, but not to the disadvantage of Scotland. I think | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
devolution works for Scotland, devolution works for Wales. I think | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
both countries have done well out of that relationship. But independence | :45:24. | :45:30. | |
is a very different journey. If you want to stop the Barnett formula, | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
the best way is to vote for independence. We had Nicola Sturgeon | :45:35. | :45:43. | |
on the programme seem that of Scotland where to leave the United | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
Kingdom, Wales would be free to renegotiate perhaps a more | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
favourable funding settlement. You cannot deny the logic of that? That | :45:52. | :46:00. | |
is a very curious logic. The Barnett formula is only part of the union. | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
We work together to protect and the best part of doing that is to remain | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
part of the union. You have got separatists and nationality oh they | :46:10. | :46:16. | |
would best work together, but I would not take their word for that. | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
Devolution works best for our respective countries. I think it has | :46:23. | :46:28. | |
an exciting future. We can hope for more powers to strengthen our | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
nations. It will be a more positive journey. What is a Labour leader | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
mean about the specific issue in relation to Wales. Does that mean | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
more funding for devolved services in Wales? Obviously, when the | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
manifestoes are written they will be specific about that. He does not | :46:51. | :46:57. | |
want to resolve that at the expense of Scotland. He needs to make sure | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
that Welsh issues are addressed. The first Minister has the job of | :47:03. | :47:11. | |
delivering the agenda and I think when the Labour leader as the Prime | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
Minister, he will do that for everyone in the country. He | :47:16. | :47:18. | |
recognises conditions in Scotland and in Wales and I think, with | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
devolution, we have an exciting journey for our nations. But we do | :47:24. | :47:30. | |
not want to be engaged in a race to the bottom, which the separatists | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
would have us. We are a better together. There is a belief that the | :47:34. | :47:42. | |
Barnett formula has deprived Wales of ?300 million a year. I think that | :47:43. | :47:50. | |
is wrong. I think the first Minister has to make sure that the Welsh | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
minister has to make sure that the Welsh people get the Jew deserves | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
and that is his job. Edna Levant has made it | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
the Labour leader has made it clear that he will have a look at this | :48:06. | :48:13. | |
issue. He will address that. Margaret Curran MP from Better | :48:14. | :48:15. | |
Together talking about September's Scottish independence referendum. | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
Now, before Scottish voters decide on independence, voters across the | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
UK will go to the polls in the European elections. Between now and | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
polling day on May 22, I will be speaking to the lead candidates | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
standing for the Conservatives, Labour, Plaid Cymru, UKIP and the | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
Liberal Democrats. First up are the Lib Dems, who we we | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
will hear from in a few minutes. Before that, let us hear about six | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
other parties contesting the European elections in Wales. | :48:44. | :49:05. | |
Our messages it does not matter who you vote for in the selection or | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
future elections, it does not matter. The British people are going | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
to be a minority in our own country within a few short years and that is | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
a big problem and we are standing in the selection to highlight that. | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
Our main message is that the people of Wales should rule in Wales, the | :49:28. | :49:48. | |
people of England should rule England and Scotland and Northern | :49:49. | :49:53. | |
Ireland the same. At the moment, the parliament is run by interlopers. | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
They are not real people. They did not go to the schools and colleges | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
we went to. They do not understand our culture and have an agenda to | :50:05. | :50:06. | |
destroy the British people. We want to see a fairer and more | :50:07. | :50:21. | |
democratic Europe. We want a referendum. Many people alive today | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
have never had a vote on whether they want to be in or out of the | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
European Union. Mostly, we feel we must have a reformed Europe. So | :50:34. | :50:42. | |
Europe, we would be cooler place, a less just place, a darker place. I | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
think people realise, in their hearts, we do need Europe. | :50:50. | :51:03. | |
We are calling for a vote from the left against the policies of the | :51:04. | :51:13. | |
right. We are opposed to the European Union. They are policies of | :51:14. | :51:28. | |
monetarism instead of privatisation. Our way of opposing the European | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
Union is different to the fraudulent way the likes of UKIP and the | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
Conservatives are putting forward. In this election, the Socialist | :51:35. | :51:56. | |
Labour Party is the only one who is opposing free-market privatisation | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
in you up. The European Union has undermined and sought to replace our | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
democracy with policies which lead to mass unemployment. Other parties | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
will carry on with this austerity and only as is looking to bring | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
prosperity to communities across the country. | :52:22. | :52:30. | |
The Socialist party stands for a stateless, classless, even world. A | :52:31. | :52:47. | |
world without money. Such a system is not going to operate at a | :52:48. | :52:56. | |
national or European level in the way things are going. We're looking | :52:57. | :52:57. | |
the global aspect of this. Wales has never had a Lib Dem MEP. | :52:58. | :53:12. | |
My next guest hopes to change that. Alec Dauncey is the party's lead | :53:13. | :53:14. | |
candidate for the European elections. If you do want to change | :53:15. | :53:23. | |
that state of affairs, you do not have the best thing to do that given | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
the parties standing in the opinion polls. It is clearly a big | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
challenge. We are setting out asked all about being in Europe and being | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
in work. As I go up and down the country, I am meeting people who are | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
responding to that. They are grateful we are a party who are | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
standing up for that against the tide of Euro scepticism. The trouble | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
is, you are not the only party setting out that stall. The other | :53:55. | :54:04. | |
main parties are stressing stressing the importance of the European | :54:05. | :54:07. | |
Union, so there is not so much to distinguish your message? I think we | :54:08. | :54:13. | |
are much closer to the core of it. We have been pro-European for | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
generations. I think the candidates will set out that case. The | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
conservatives are divided as a party on this. One thing which does | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
distinguish you is that the Labour Party has offered a referendum. Let | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
us clean up your position. Argue against a referendum? No, we are in | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
favour of the referendum. We are part of the act of Parliament put | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
through that there will be a referendum. Is it a question of | :54:47. | :54:57. | |
timing? It is about having a referendum when the opportunity is | :54:58. | :55:04. | |
right. Plaid Cymru is an problem which does not exist in England. | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
They are very pro-European but they are uncertain about where their | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
place in Britain is. We are already seeing the situation in Scotland. I | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
think Plaid Cymru have that problem as well. But Nick Clegg has lead us | :55:23. | :55:34. | |
very clearly as a party which very much believes in Europe. You see the | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
tide of Euro scepticism and xenophobia. Readers that coming | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
from? I think some of the media have been demonising immigration and not | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
recognising it is on a democratic basis. There has been years of that. | :55:54. | :56:02. | |
At last, we are having a European election pledges on the real issues. | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
Really, it is the first time we are having the argument. People feel | :56:08. | :56:16. | |
justified and worried about immigration within Europe? | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
Certainly. The last Labour government underestimated the amount | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
of people who would come in from the likes of Poland. But immigration can | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
be very good for the country, as well. And we know that the likes of | :56:29. | :56:39. | |
the people from Poland working very hard, paying taxes in this country. | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
It is how the economy builds. But if people are travelling to UKIP, there | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
is a mood of Euro scepticism out there, it is not being whipped up by | :56:50. | :57:01. | |
UKIP or the newspapers, that is why people are genuinely feeling? There | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
could be a legitimate question about how we see ourselves as different | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
countries with the United Kingdom. Do you see yourself as being in | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
touch with how the majority of people feel? Yes, there are issues | :57:17. | :57:23. | |
that our young people are competitive and compete in the | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
economy. That is why we are looking at things like making sure more | :57:27. | :57:35. | |
disadvantaged children get a good education. But that is part of the | :57:36. | :57:44. | |
free labour market. I noticed on your twitter feed, your biography | :57:45. | :57:50. | |
described you as a rationalist. Let's be realistic about what you're | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
goals are in this election. You got any 11% share of the vote last | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
time. Would you expect to do better? Given the role the party has played | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
in some unpopular national policies? We have also taken 1 million people | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
out of tax. There are good things we could talk about. As I said, this is | :58:16. | :58:23. | |
a European election and we do seem to be finding it more focused on | :58:24. | :58:30. | |
European issues. What is your goal? What are you aiming for? We are the | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
challengers for the next seat. We are allowed to win. You see this as | :58:37. | :58:44. | |
an election being fought on European issues. The Labour leader in Cardiff | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
on Friday said the cost of living crisis, saying freezing energy bills | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
would send a message to the United Kingdom government. They are clearly | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
fighting this on domestic issues as much as European issues. Perhaps you | :59:02. | :59:07. | |
have chosen the wrong way to go? There is a great strand of | :59:08. | :59:13. | |
disillusionment and politics. People are additional Nugent, which is why | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
they want to kick the main parties. Fighting every election on every | :59:19. | :59:22. | |
issue and not on the issues which it is about is a mistake. Labour cannot | :59:23. | :59:30. | |
deliver these things directly. The need to win an election to do that. | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
The European election is about where we are in Europe. It is about jobs | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
in Europe and being in work as a legitimate argument about it. It is | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
a big market, it is about not threatening that. Labour is | :59:45. | :59:54. | |
appealing to people to send a message to Westminster, to put a | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
marker down before the general election. People voting understand | :00:01. | :00:07. | |
that. They are fed up with a coalition government and will send | :00:08. | :00:13. | |
them a message through the ballot box? I can understand that, but the | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
team to do that is at the general election. On this occasion, we are | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
talking about Europe. We are talking about the jobs that come from being | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
in the single market. We are also looking at reforming Europe. I was | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
going to ask you about that, you're happy about the Wii Europe works the | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
moment? Not at all. There are things wrong with what go on in Cardiff, | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
what goes on in Westminster, all areas of our parliaments. There are | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
madness is in the European Parliament. The fact that it sits on | :00:51. | :00:59. | |
two different places. It is a costly waste of money. We want to see it | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
becoming more democratic, which it is, and we want to see that the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
members of the European Parliament are hard-working and that the | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
regulations are being adhered to. We want to make sure things work in | :01:16. | :01:24. | |
every aspect of the European Union. What sort of state is the party in | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
in Wales? You have had the few rocky years? I think it is a surprisingly | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
good state. We entered into the coalition with our eyes open. We did | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
that as a party in a very democratic way. We keep campaigning very hard, | :01:42. | :01:52. | |
so I am very optimistic. We will see of that pays off for you. | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
Alec Daunce, lead Liberal Democrat election candidate for Wales, thank | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
you very much. Next week, I will be speaking to Plaid Cymru's lead | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
candidate, Jill Evans, and the UK Independence Party's Nathan Gill. | :02:02. | :02:03. | |
For now, though, that is all from Independence Party's Nathan Gill. | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
on our website. That is all we have got time for this week. Next week, | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
London's local elections. Welcome back. Now, the Government is | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
not very good at predicting the future. That's according to a report | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
from a committee of MPs this morning who say that its Horizon Scanning | :02:22. | :02:23. | |
programme that's supposed to identify potential threats, risks, | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
emerging issues and opportunities isn't much good at reading the tea | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
leaves. But can it really be any worse than our panel? Here they are | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
predicting the future of then culture secretary Maria Miller | :02:36. | :02:45. | |
before Easter. Can she survive? I'm getting out of | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
the prediction game after I said Nick Clegg would win the debates. | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
But I almost think she might. If there is a big event that moves this | :02:56. | :03:01. | |
off the front pages. David Cameron will want to keep Maria Miller until | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
at least his summary shuffle. I think they will get rid of her. I | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
think they will do the decent thing after exhausting all other options. | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
Maria Miller resigned a few days later of course! The best and the | :03:20. | :03:28. | |
brightest, when did that slip in? This week it will be exactly a year | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
until the General Election, so what better time to get our panel to gaze | :03:32. | :03:39. | |
into their crystal balls again. What's the outcome of the election | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
in 2015? I'm going to go with the polls and say Ed Miliband as the | :03:45. | :03:52. | |
Prime Minister. But the polls are only a snapshot of opinion now, you | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
think they will be the same in a year? No, I think they will narrow. | :03:58. | :04:05. | |
I think UKIP's vote share will fall. I think they are currently coasting | :04:06. | :04:09. | |
on a high and that will tailor way so they won't take as many votes off | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
the Tories. Labour with a majority or is the largest party. Another | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
liberal Conservative coalition, and I say that because he is already in | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
touching distance of Labour. I don't think UKIP will get 15, maybe half | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
of that, and most of the votes they lose will either not vote at all go | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
to the Tories and that should be enough to be the biggest party in a | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
hung parliament I don't envisage a Tory majority. I am also going to go | :04:46. | :04:52. | |
with the polls. For Ed Miliband to be hoping to win at this stage, he | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
has got to be way ahead in the polls. Labour needs to be much | :04:56. | :05:04. | |
further ahead if he is going to win so David Cameron, probably the | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
leader of the largest party. Last time after the election David | :05:09. | :05:11. | |
Cameron went to the 1922 committee and announced he was Prime Minister | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
as head of the Coalition. He has agreed this time he will consult | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
them and it will be much more difficult for him to get a | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
coalition. People at home have now concluded there will be a Liberal | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
Democrat landslide! Are we going to have debates? Yes, probably further | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
away from polling day then last time. That is the Liberal Democrat | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
point, isn't it? Yes, it sucks all the life out of the campaign, so the | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
last six weeks will be left to traditional campaigning. What did | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
you make of this in the Sunday Times this morning, this two, three, five | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
formula. There should be a Cameron, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg debate, then | :06:02. | :06:09. | |
there should be another one with them and UKIP and the Greens. It | :06:10. | :06:20. | |
might be testing the patience of the nation to tune into all of those. If | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
you're going to say Nigel Farage should be there, the Green party | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
should be too. They know that as soon as you put them on a podium | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
next to them, he looks like he has equal stature and that is a problem. | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
David Cameron does not want the debates to happen on the way they | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
happened last time. It is generally regarded, Lynton Crosby believes | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
they were a disaster for David Cameron because they allowed Nick | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
Clegg to be the fresh person. He knows he cannot say no to them so | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
the moment you see David Cameron suggesting that Caroline Lucas | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
should be in the debate, you know he is not serious. What he will try to | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
do is have more debates, have them outside the main part of the general | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
election so that it doesn't dominate. The problem the David | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
Cameron is that the campaign will be much longer. It is a five-week | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
campaign so it is quite difficult for him to say we will only have one | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
debate in that campaign. I think smother it with love, hopefully it | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
will go to the courts for him and hopefully they will never happen and | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
he will be delighted. The European election and the local elections are | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
coming up. The three mainstream parties are saying it is a flash in | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
the pan, they don't really matter and so on, but if UKIP comes a | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
strong first, if Labour comes a poor second and the Tories come a poor | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
third, it will have consequences for all three, and the Lib Dems come | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
forth or even fish. It will have consequences and not just in the | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
media but on the ground. One of the big stories is what will happen to | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
the Lib Dems, they face losing all of their MEPs. A good result for | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
them is lit -- in the local elections is losing 250 councillors. | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
These are the most interesting elections we have had for some | :08:25. | :08:31. | |
time. Are we heading for a Nick Clegg summer leadership crisis? I | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
think we are heading towards reversing the clock back to where we | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
were before the Eastleigh by-election. That quiet and things | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
down for Nick Clegg. If they lose all their MEPs, and there is a real | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
chance they will, Vince Cable will be out on manoeuvres because age is | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
not on his side. If he can say Nick Clegg is a loser and a failure, he | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
will be back. Will the Tories go into headless chicken mode if they | :09:03. | :09:17. | |
come third? Yes, if UKIP come first there will not be as much panic as | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
if Labour come first. Is Labour comes a poor second, will there be | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
some pressure on Ed Miliband to reopen his attitude to the | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
referendum? I don't think so and my colleague was talking to Labour | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
sources who said he is absolutely not going to. That is something you | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
can say definitely about him, he decides on a course and he sticks to | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
it. There is one potential upside for David Cameron in a really bad | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
Conservative results, it could strengthen his hand in the | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
renegotiations of Britain's EU membership because he doesn't even | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
need to say to Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande it is there. David | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
Cameron hasn't just been fighting for his party into the local | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
elections. He also got his knuckles wrapped by the Speaker, John Bercow, | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
at Prime Minister's Question Time, for talking for too long. Take a | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
look at this. There is a better future ahead of us but we must not | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
go backward to the policies that put us in this mess in the first place. | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
I don't know what they are paying him, Mr Speaker. Order, order. I | :10:33. | :10:50. | |
haven't finished! In response to that question, the Prime Minister | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
has finished and he can take it from me that he has finished. I can't | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
remember a speaker ever speaking to a Prime Minister like that. Clearly | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
in that case, John Bercow crossed a line. It is Prime Minister 's | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
questions, he is entitled to answer the questions. There is really bad | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
blood between those two, going back a long way. They hate each other and | :11:18. | :11:24. | |
the worrying thing about that was the look of triumphalism on the | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
speaker's face afterwards. He is a remarkable, revolutionary speaker | :11:31. | :11:33. | |
who has made the House of Commons more relevant, he is holding the | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
executive to account, but that look on his face showed he had crossed | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
the line. Does he survive after the next election? He has improved the | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
importance of the Commons, is that enough to keep him in the Speaker 's | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
chair? The most public bit of the Commons is still the Prime Minister | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
's questions, and we can conclude that John Bercow's interventions | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
take more time than any delays he complains about so I wouldn't be | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
surprised if, in a few years' time, someone else replaces him. He is | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
quite popular someone else replaces him. He is | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
not? Yes, he is married to a Labour activist and is notably sympathetic | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
to Labour but I think this is a difficult situation. David Cameron | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
also overstepped the line. As soon as the speaker says order, the idea | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
is that the House was to order and David Cameron pushed him. They are | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
both trying to score points off each other. We cover Prime Minister 's | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
questions every week on the daily politics, and there is a danger that | :12:49. | :12:57. | |
he sees it as an opportunity to do some grandstanding. You slightly | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
sends his vanity gets the better of him. It is supposed to be Prime | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
Minister 's questions. At the end of that session, the Speaker read out a | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
statement from the Chief clerk, and immensely respected figure, saying | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
he is taking early retirement. It is pretty clear that the reason he has | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
decided to go early is because he is finding it tricky to maintain a | :13:21. | :13:22. | |
cordial relationship with the speaker, and the speaker might want | :13:23. | :13:28. | |
to think about his man management skills. That's all for today. The | :13:29. | :13:31. | |
Daily Politics will be back on BBC Two at lunchtime from Tuesday | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
onwards. Remember, it is a bank holiday tomorrow. I'll be back here | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
at 11am next week. Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday | :13:39. | :13:39. | |
Politics. | :13:40. | :13:44. |