19/06/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

As campaigning restarts after the tragic death of the MP

Jo Cox, we'll be looking at how the final days leading up

to Thursday's EU referendum could have a crucial impact

The polls suggest it's all still too close to call as voters

across the country make their final decision on whether the UK

is better off in or out, of the European Union.

And we'll be letting both campaigns go head to head

as they test the substance of each other's arguments.

As Parliament returns tomorrow, one of Jo Cox's

And we've a special report on how Welsh expats see

of Lambeth which is said in some recent polling to be one of the most

All that to come, and as we enter the final lap before the vote

which will shape the future of Britain, I'm joined by three

journalists who are just as in the dark about the likely

Janan Ganesh, Tom Newton Dunn and Janet Daley.

So campaigning is slowly beginning again after the death of the Labour

MP Jo Cox on Thursday, with events planed today by both

the official Remain and Leave groups.

And we've heard from big figures from either side on the

Labour leader and Remain supporter Jeremy Corbyn and Leave campaigner

and Conservative minister Michael Gove were both asked

Is there any kind of upper limit to immigration

I don't think you can have one while you have the free movement

of labour and I think the free movement of labour means that

you have to balance the economy so you have to improve living

And so that means the European Union's appalling treatment

of Greece, particularly the European Central Bank

as well as the European Union, that is a problem.

So if you actually deliberately lower living standards and increase

poverty in certain countries in south-east or eastern Europe,

then you are bound to have a flow of people looking for somewhere

Surely the issue is an anti-austerity, a growth package

When I've had the opportunity to talk about migration

during the course of this debate, I hope I have been very clear.

I am pro-migration but I believe that the way in which we secure

public support for the continued benefits that migration brings

and the way in which we secure public support for helping refugees

in need is if people feel that they can control the numbers

In Canada and Australia, two countries I very much admire,

they have control and therefore they are able both to welcome

Both sides talking about immigration. Mr Corbyn saying no

upper limit as long as we have free movement in the EU. That is honest

but will not be welcome perhaps by the Remain campaign. Not in the

slightest. The Leave campaign sleeper agent strikes against! It

was Alex Gregory thing to say and you can imagine Jeremy Corbyn being

piled full briefing notes before, saying whatever you do, don't talk

about people coming in their droves -- an extraordinary thing to say. He

threw that all in the bin and told it truthfully, as he saw it. It may

be the thing that precipitate a leadership challenge on him after

the referendum. Much talk of that but no evidence. What did you make

of it? I picked was a phenomenal performance for a covert agent for

the opposite side, not such a good performance for a sincere... It was

honest. It was candid but there is still an element of the country

which is pro-Remain in the most grudging way possible and his

approach might resonate a bit more with the more enthusiastic approach

from George Osborne or David Cameron. The most telling thing this

morning is when Nigel Farage was pressed on his controversial poster

on migration a few days ago and his response was to say that the

mainstream Leave campaign have come up with some pretty fruity posters

of their own on that subject. I think the beginnings of a split

between those sides of the Leave campaign, on the tone of how you

deal with the issue of migration, might open up even in the last few

days. Is there a difference to the tone of the campaign even when

talking about immigration? Or is it back to business as usual? The

substance of the argument remains the same Ulster Jeremy Corbyn put

his finger in the league right on it. As a consequence of the hideous

events of the last couple of days if that is a tendency to imply that

anybody associated with the Leave campaign, anybody who expresses

concerns about the numbers of immigrants, the flow of migration,

is somehow a right-wing extremist, a fascist who is, by implication,

associated with this crime. Jeremy Corbyn didn't do that. I am saying

there is a tone in the media coverage that implies guilt by

association with anybody who expresses concern about migration

and that is very dangerous because the surest way to drive people into

extraparliamentary opposition and dissidents is to make it clear that

no respectable politician will pick up their concerns. Did you agree

with Nigel Farage? Of course not. Nothing is wrong with pointing it

out. George Osborne has poured petrol on the plane is talking about

the echoes of 1930s. -- the flames. That is absurd. Your point about a

split in the Leave campaign, there have been a split from the off.

Right from the beginning. There is a difference in tone between... I was

going to say, the story last week was of a widening gap with Remain in

the lead that was the opinion polls, sorry, with Leave in the lead. If

you were on the Remain site, would you not take comfort from the polls

today? Especially from the fact that, according to YouGov, the mood

in the polls predate the killing of Jo Cox so you could conclusion there

is a structural reversion to continue to which often occurs

before big elections. -- continuity. But it does not help that you have

the lead of the opposition getting into a conversation about free

movement. One of the biggest poll findings, the number of people who

feel they would lose out material from Brexit has gone up from 23 233%

and that is how win. Plenty of opinion polls

in this morning's papers, as you'd expect in the last weekend

before the vote. There will be more to

come in the days ahead. Of course, polls are not quite

the holy grail these days, especially after their failure

to get the result right And the pollsters find referendums

even trickier than other votes. But imperfect as they may be,

they're what we've got and they've told an interesting story

throughout the campaign. Polls conducted by phone like this

one back in May by Ipsos Mori have consistently put Remain ahead -

here with an 18-point lead, But signs things were changing

emerged at the end of last month, as one phone poll showed

Leave three points ahead. And just this Thursday the latest

Ipsos Mori survey caused a bit of a stir when it showed Leave

with a six-point lead. But those carried out online have

shown a different story, with the two sides level pegging

or with Leave ahead. Back in May before the 'purdah'

period which stopped the government taking part in the campaign,

one internet poll gave Almost a month later,

another online poll, this one by ICM, had

Leave five points ahead. But this YouGov survey is one

of four polls released overnight, suggesting both sides are neck

and neck, suggesting the result So that's the story told

by the polls in the months leading up to the referendum,

and just so you have the full YouGov for the Sunday Times puts

Remain on 44%, one point Another YouGov poll

for Good Morning Britain gives Opinium for the Observer has Leave

and Remain level pegging on 44%. And Survation for the Mail

on Sunday, the only telephone poll today, has Remain

on 45% and Leave on 42%. Well, there's only one man we can

turn to explain what it all means - I speak of course of elections

expert John Curtice, Four new polls out this morning.

What do they tell us? They certainly provide a degree of relief for David

Cameron and the remaining macro side after some dire polls last week

which almost unanimously suggested a sharp drop in support for Remain.

But it is perhaps an indication of just how tight this referendum has

become that three Internet polls between suggested it was 50-50 and

one telephone pole, which although it puts Remain back in the lead, it

makes the lead much narrower that in any previous point in the campaign.

The fact that that is regarded as good news for them is an indication

of how much trouble they had got into seemingly. I think these polls

were taken at a time when it was too early, tell me if I'm wrong, to see

if the appalling tragedy of Jo Cox has had any impact on the campaign.

I think that is correct. The telephone poll was done entirely

afterwards, one of the YouGov polls was done mostly afterwards. They are

saying that the poll they did just before was already showing Remain

increasing and the one after shows that continuing further. Given that

there was a widespread expectation that perhaps Remain would start to

regain ground as people considered the possible risks of voting for

Leave, maybe this process had already kicked in and that is

explaining something of a movement back towards Remain, and it may not

necessarily have anything to do with the tragic murder of Jo Cox. There

is nothing in these polls to be able to pin it definitively on that

particular event. It is often said in referenda that there can be a

reversion to the status quo on the final day and that would be to vote

to remain. Is there any sign of that? And what can you tell us about

the undecideds? I saw some of the polling suggesting that those who

were undecided, if they vote, they are more likely to vote to remain

than to come out. Your first point, it is precisely whether that process

are people reverting back to the status quo is already kicking in and

this explains why the polls this weekend are somewhat better than

those in the week. And I think what it does seem to be the case, we are

asking is that movement to leave was a stone that was gathering more moss

and would continue this weekend and that clearly hadn't happened. Remain

may hope that people reverting back to the status quo might happen, that

is the first point. The second was about the significance of the

undecideds. The number of them going down and the people who have made up

their mind is going up but you are right that most polls find that the

people who don't know are most likely to vote first of all and the

second thing they are likely to do is to vote for Remain. And many of

the opinion polls published now are already including into their

headline tallies the reported votes of those who initially said they

were undecided but are asked a follow up squeeze question. We

should not say there is more ground to be made for Remain from that

particular phenomenon. Thank you. Only a few days to go,

so how will the campaigns try to win over undecided voters in the short

time they have remaining? Well, we're joined now from Somerset

by the former Lib Dem And here in the studio by the Labour

MP and Leave campaigner, Paddy Ashdown, do you get a sense

this weekend, if I can put it this way, that the Remain campaign is

back on track? Andrew Neil, you really want to bring me on straight

after John Curtis, my nemesis, and ask me to disagree with him! The

last time I had to eat my hat... I disagreed with John twice on the

poll now and I have been wrong on every occasion and I'm delighted to

make my apologies to him on your programme. I don't know all the I

think what you're talking about with John about the undecided voters

maybe keep to this, if they vote or not, and if they do, will they vote

in favour of remaining as people predict. I don't think any of us

know. It is all within a margin of error, it is all to play for and it

looks to me, extremely tight. Perhaps a small shift in favour of

remaining macro but too small to be certain about it.

We got some austere stories about the economy from the Chancellor this

morning on ITV. In the final three days, starting tomorrow, three more

days of campaigning to go, is that the right way to go, or would you

advise the Remain campaign to start putting out a more positive message

about remaining in the EU? They are following a playbook they have

followed before. I'm not involved with the Remain campaign. My advice

to voters, when it comes to predictions on the economy, do not

listen to either side, listen to the independent voices whose job it is,

paid by all the nations on earth, to make judgments about the economic

consequences of our political actions. They have been wrong

before, but I'll be all wrong? Are only Mr Johnson and Mr Farage red?

People need to realise they are betting their jobs and the national

economy on this. Nothing is certain, but when you make the judgment, you

probably want to wear on your mind, not George Osborne's comments, or

Boris Johnson's from the other side, they will put the point as they want

to, but those independent voices, every single one of them, without

exception, who are independent of the campaign, the global experts on

this. This is not a conspiracy, it is a consensus, all of them say it

will seriously damage our economy. For most people, worried about their

jobs, that will be a more powerful factor in making your decision. More

powerful than the words of the opposition parties. Some in Remain

may not regard it as helpful, but Jeremy Corbyn told the BBC this

morning that with free movement within the EU, you can have no upper

limit on immigration. That was accurate and honest, wasn't it? One

thing you can be sure of, if we leave the European Union, you will

control immigration, but not anyway that the out campaigners claim. You

will trash the economy, far fewer jobs and no one will want to come

here. Your language is interesting. We will trash the economy, not that

we will not grow as fast, not that it will be better to stay in than

I'd, but we will trash the economy? Find another word, if you wish. We

are slowly recovering from recession. It has been massive pain

to get out of the mess we were in. The international economy, all of

those who comment, they say in big terms are small towns, the used

strong words are relatively more moderated ones, the agree it will

push us back into recession. You can use trash the economy or say we are

going back into recession. Creating those jobs, making Britain one of

the best economies in Europe, we would turn that around if we came

out. The consequences will be for jobs and businesses, the tax

revenues for the government that pays for our public services, it

will be very serious. John Mann, immigration has been a big part of

the Leave campaign. Did the town get too hostile on immigration, did it

get to a robust? Yes, and Nigel Farage's poster is the worst example

of that. It would be better known if it had not been produced and he

withdrew it. It is unhelpful and inaccurate, irrelevant to the real

debate. So yes. What did you make of Jeremy Corbyn's remarks this morning

on immigration? The issues in working-class communities remain.

The issues are about pay, agency work, they are about people's hopes

for the future. When you have zero our contracts, when the health

services under pressure, and people see privatisation and cuts, the

Labour agenda on Friday, whatever the result, it has to get into that.

If it is a Leave vote, the first thing Labour could be doing was

demanding a dash was demanding an immediate end of the procurement

rules for public services. We could argue for an increase in public

servers pay, to stop the impact of the European Court rulings and

reinforcing agencies. It is agencies and the uncertainty in the labour

market that is really behind the strain that appears to be in working

-- the strength that appears to be in working-class communities for

Kallis leave. There are only three days to go. Is the biggest issue

immigration again? I hope not. I hope it is about hope and vision for

what kind of country we want in the future, and how best in the modern

technological age, where the computer has been invented, where we

order things online, where big developments will get even faster,

about how we deal with the whole of the world. I think that politicians,

MPs, all of us, myself included, we remain extremely shaken by the

horrific murder of Jo Cox. I think there will be less campaigning, less

than there was. However strong people's views, they do not want to

be banging on doors at the current time. I think there will be less

politicians out and about and there would have been. There seems to be

of their weight behind Leave, last week, certainly, up until the

terrible events on Thursday. Do you get a sense that it could be

slipping away from you this weekend? From the polls last time, I would

have expected them to bounce back little bit. It will depend on

turnout. If there is a disproportionately high turnout in

the areas that do not normally vote, it will end up with a Leave vote. If

it is lower, it will be Remain. Turnout will decide. It is not

predictable. I hope the vast majority of people are voting and

whatever the result, we need to get together as a country, and get

behind that result. Paddy Ashdown... Would you allow me. It is a really

important statement that John Mann has made. I admire him very much and

I know he is just as interested in the future of this country as I am.

If it is the case that the terrible death of Jo Cox, who I campaigned

with on the issues of refugees and two I had massive admiration for, if

that has led to a change in tone, that would be welcome. The way that

John put his case and the way he moved away from the Nigel Farage

poster, which I find distasteful, if that is the tone of this campaign, I

do not think it will massively alter the result, but that last we will

have a campaign we can be proud of, one that I have felt so far

extremely ashamed about. High octane insults from both sides. Some of

that is because it is an internal civil war in the Tory party, and

they are always the worst. I was at the Oval the other day, and the man

came up to the In campaign and said they should be executed. If we can

get away from that, lower the tone and follow the approach John Mann is

suggesting, we will have a good debate, honoured democracy, and it's

essential qualities of tolerance and respect for others, rather than the

kind of thing we have had in recent weeks. Will the final three days of

the campaign be that different in tone? I think they will be.

Certainly members of Parliament will be careful on the language used. I

hope on the Leave site, everyone will distance themselves from Nigel

Farage's poster and what lay behind that. I hope that on the Remain

side, people Walsh move away from the exaggerations that have taken

place. -- people will move. Paddy Ashdown. I agree with that as well.

We have dealt in hyperbole. The public does not trust either side.

If we can change that now, if we can come back to a statement of the

facts, maybe relying on independent opinions, I think the last few days

of the campaign will honour us. In the interests of our anti-hyperbole

Drive, can both Remain and Leave agree that when the French economic

minister says that if we vote to leave, we will be no more important

than Guernsey, we can file that under hyperbole? Yes, you can. You

may be able to file it under trash. Thank you. Thank you, John Mann, we

can file that under hyperbole? Yes, we can.

Now, over the past two weeks we've been letting the politicians

from either side of this referendum debate interrogate each other over

what they feel are the really big issues at stake.

Today, in the last of the series for now, we've invited

the Green Party MP and Remain campaigner Caroline Lucas

to question the Conservative minister and Leave campaigner

A little earlier, we tossed a coin to see who would go first.

Dominic was the winner, and he chose to answer

So, before we get started, let's have a listen to Domnic Raab

making the case for why undecided voters should vote to leave.

I am confident in you, the British people, and I am also

convinced with my head and my heart that we can only reach our full

Take some of the positives of leaving the EU, our small

businesses would be freed up from straitjacket regulation.

That is important for us because small businesses in this

We would be freed up to trade more energetically with the growth

markets of the future, from Asia to Latin America,

which will cut prices in the shops, and we will take back full control

over the money we give the EU, and our gross contribution is now

?350 million every week and certain to rise.

When it comes to immigration it can bring huge benefits,

but only if it is properly controlled.

Uncontrolled immigration from the EU has put pressure on jobs and wages,

and a massive strain on infrastructure,

The truth is, we cannot properly control immigration

There is something bigger in this debate, something

I want us to be masters of our own destiny.

I want it as a citizen, as a father, and I want it

With the majority of laws now made in Brussels by politicians

and bureaucrats not elected by or accountable to you,

we can only truly be masters of our own destiny if we vote

to leave the EU on 23rd June and take back democratic control.

And here are Caroline Lucas and Dominic Raab.

And just to explain the rules, Caroline has just five minutes

She can only ask questions, and he can only give answers.

Thank you. Dominik, how much is Britain's net weekly contribution to

the EU? Weekly? The grosses 350 million and the net contribution is

around half of that. You will know that on this leaflet it says, let's

give NHS the 350 million the EU takes every week. Is that not

misleading because it is not the real figure? After was four months

of campaigning, people have understood there is a difference

between the gross contribution, and that includes some of the things

that the EU spends in this country on our behalf, without is being able

to prioritise, as well as the amount we give and do not see back. We want

the money back that the EU spends on itself. Do you accept this as a

wrong figure? We want control over the money we put in. It is the gross

contribution, I have made that clear. We never send the men from

the rebate, so we cannot possibly be spending that again on the NHS. Why

should anyone believe your side on the NHS, given that also some of the

key vote leave campaigners are people who want to privatise the

NHS? We have a wide range of politicians involved. We have heard

from John Mann. You're some of the most left-wing unions like our side.

In relation to what we said about the NHS, we would take 100 million

each week from the net contribution. That is the allocation that would be

made. When you get your salary from the House of Commons you get a gross

figure. There is a difference between that and your take-home pay.

There is no difference here. That is a misleading figure. I want to come

onto another poster. This is another one you will be familiar with. The

Leave side are sending at around the country. It says that Turkey I

leaving the EU. On a scale of one to ten, how would you rate the

suggestion that Turkey is close to becoming a EU member? I think it is

right. Turkey is in the process of joining. British taxpayers are

already paying ?1.8 billion between 2014 and 2022 pave the way. We have

had politicians from Tony Blair to David Cameron making it clear that

the UK wants Turkey to join the EU. The UK has a veto, doesn't it? It

cannot possibly join in the UK uses that? It is a theoretical veto. It

is real. Can you imagine Cyprus not using its veto? From Tony Blair to

David Cameron, the consensus in this country is that Turkey should join

the EU. Our diplomats are working on measures to expedite that happening.

You have got to take into account the impact that would have. How many

of the 35 chapters or areas of compliance that Turkey would have to

fulfil before it could join, how many of those have been fulfilled in

the last 30 years they have been trying to join? Not many. It is one.

That is why it is worrying that in Whitehall and in Brussels they are

expediting Turkish membership. I was in the Foreign Office when the eight

countries from Central and eastern Europe were playing and in many of

those cases those criteria were ignored because the political will

was there and that is what we have now. Would you accept that this

leaflet is misleading because it sounds like it is going to happen

soon and it clearly isn't and Britain has a veto? Turkish

membership of the EU is a question of when and not if and in that case

it is right. Do you think is contributing to an atmosphere of

fear and hatred? The responsible thing is to talk about immigration

in a sensitive way and if you ignore it and you don't talk about the

costs of immigration, you're going to get far more fringe extremist

politics. That's not airbrush it out of the debate. I want to ask you,

key campaigners on the Leave side like Nigel Lawson and Nigel Farage

are at best climate sceptics is not climate deniers do you agree with

them? I'm not a climate sceptic at all. You were pleased to see the

agreement in Paris? Did the EU play a good role? The problem we have is

that 10% of CO2 emissions come from the EU and 90% from the rest of the

world so we need a global 08 regional approach. When I dealt with

a lot of global institutions, the problem is the EU is so inward

looking, we lose sight of the big picture and it is global not

regional. The EU played a key role in Paris in terms of ratcheting up

the ambition, yes or no? I don't think the ambition was particularly

high if you look at the Regent of the world outside the EU. We will

leave it there. -- the regions. Now it's the turn of Caroline

to be cross-examined. First, let's have a look

at her pitch to undecided voters, arguing the case

for a vote to remain. They are in their early 20s now,

and this referendum goes to the heart of the kind of future

I want for them, that all of us want for our young

people and for Britain. Yet there is a risk that the outcome

will be decided by older generations if young people do not get

out and vote. The EU can help us build a safer,

better future, because the biggest challenges we face today

are by their very nature international, and are best tackled

by working hand-in-hand with our neighbours,

challenges like climate change, the refugee crisis, cross-border

crime and terrorism. The EU has been a force for good,

from guaranteeing workers' rights to protecting our shared environment

and helping to create jobs in every To turn our backs on this would be

to turn our backs on a safer, greener, more prosperous

and peaceful future. This referendum will define

what kind of country our children Do we want to be an isolated,

inward-looking country that cares only about what it can get out

of the rest of the world, or do we want to be a generous,

confident and outward-looking country that wants to be able

to play its part in making Let's not take our

country backwards. I taught my children that the right

thing to do when confronted with a challenge is to stand tall

and find a solution, That is why I am voting to remain

on June 23rd and I am So, as before, Dominic,

you have six minutes to question Caroline,

off you go. The organisation which is trying to

independently verify facts for the public estimate that around 50 to

60% of UK law that are now made in Brussels. How high would that

percentage have to be for you to be in favour of leaving the EU? It

depends why those rules are being made in Brussels. They are being

made because getting single market and we want to make sure there are

strong social and environmental standards, I'm delighted that they

are being made in Brussels, they should be come they are there

because we want to make sure cross-border problems like air

pollution are controlled because we have the ability to work

cross-border in the EU, absolutely it should be there. Looking at bold

figures does not help us. If 100% of the laws were made in Brussels,

fined by you? It's a bit ridiculous to think that not a single domestic

law would be made in Britain. Things like housing and defence and some

issues are still decided at UK level. Where would you draw the

line? I'm trying to get a sense of when you think the tipping point

arrives when we have lost so much of our democracy. I would challenge the

premise of your question because the idea that the EU is fundamentally

more undemocratic than with Minster is wrong. The government that you

represent was elected with just 24% of the eligible vote, we have an

unelected House of Lords, at least in the European institutions we have

a parliament are through proportional representation and the

Council of ministers which means that if a democratic oversight of

the rules coming from Brussels. When the people watching the show get to

hold to account the 27th of heads of government in the European Council,

the 10th of thousands of bureaucrats and the 90% of MEPs not from

Britain? -- tens of thousands. There are fewer people working for the

interjections in Brussels than for Kent County Council for example. --

for the institutions. I would be the first to say that

EU should be more democratic and accountable, I would like to see the

European Parliament have more powers and the commission have fewer. To

suggest that would be a reason for leaving the EU is just wrong, we

need to be in there to fight it. Net immigration from the EU was 184,000

last year, that is the equivalent of a size city the size of Oxford. Do

you think there should be any limit on the volume of immigration from

the EU? Jeremy Corbyn said note this morning. I think it will be

self-regulating to an extent because people are coming because the other

fifth richest country in the world and there are jobs here. So we don't

need a limit? To have an arbitrary limit would be ineffective and we

have seen that from looking at your own promise to try to do by talking

about bringing it down to tens of thousands. There is no way he can do

that because there is more migration coming from outside the EU that

inside anyway. Take Romania and Bulgaria, the average wage around ?3

an hour, we have a minimum rate of ?7.20 an hour, eight strong pull

factor which puts strains on the NHS and housing. If it up price worth

paying for staying in? There are so many assumptions in your question.

Most of the pressure on our housing and education and health system is

coming from a lack of investment and cuts on the government, not from

people coming in. In the NHS you are far more likely to be treated by

someone who has come from another European country. There are some

real challenges in there. I'm not saying that regression doesn't bring

pressures but we should be recognising there is a net economic

benefit that migrants bring with them so let's invest that properly

in the services in the area. The latest report by the EU's

anti-corruption body shows fraudulent abuse of EU funds at

record levels, they have been criticised for not even implementing

the first obligation under the UN's Convention against corruption. Under

our aid policy, we would not give a penny of taxpayers money to a poor

African country that would not comply with UN standards but we give

billions to the EU. Are you comfortable with that? I'm not

comfortable with corruption or fraud but I don't think the EU has a

monopoly on that and many times the accounts have not been able to be

signed up because individual nation states have not done their job

properly, it is government at fault, not the EU. In your election

manifesto you referred to the EU's unsustainable economic 's. Do you

still hold that view? I think it is unsustainable whether at EU level or

British level and the way to do that do that is to fight it in Britain

and in the EU. Thank you to both of you.

It's just gone 11.35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be

talking about how the final week of this campaign could take shape.

First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.

Hello and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

Wales are looking to stay in the Euros tomorrow,

but what are the chances of increasing the numbers

A postcard from Spain on how Welsh people see the EU Referendum.

But first, politics changed this week.

In the middle of an increasingly bitter referendum campaign,

everything came to a halt last Thursday as the news of the death

The details of what happened that day don't need to be repeated.

But often terrible events raise difficult questions.

For example, what does it say about the character

Does the low regard in which our politicians are held need to change?

The Cardiff South and Penarth MP Stephen Doughty knew Jo Cox

Thanks are coming in on what is a difficult time. Tell us about her.

All our viewers will have read the thousands of column inches about the

tenacious, cheeky, fun loving woman. That doesn't really scratch the

surface? It does reflect part of her

character. I knew Jo for 15 years. I first met in Wales. She had a

affection for Wales, had lots of close friends here. I met her

campaigning on the referent -- European campaign with Glenys

Kinnock. We made views. I got to know whether best when it worked

with her at Oxfam and the humanitarian sector. She was my boss

at Oxfam and she was a remarkable woman. She was fallen, full of

energy and full of ideas that she had a huge focus on what's really

mattered. She felt passionately about people in conflict around the

world, about women in particular. And about the big issues of our

time. She would frustrate us by not being interested in the bureaucracy

of meetings because you wanted to be out there speaking to people. She

seemed as somebody who represented the best of politics. There was a

tribute to her by Andrew Mitchell saying she got on with him, party

politics aside, let's get on with Syria. That is what you would want

from your politician. Absolutely. She believed in building bridges.

She was proudly laboured to the corporate she knew you couldn't

speak to the people who agreed with you. When this came to big issues

like International development or humanitarian crises or conflicts in

the world you had to reach out and influence the people who were able

to make those decisions, even if they didn't initially agree with

you. She was happy to reach out across the house but in other ways.

If that is to be some legacy do you think it ought to be that

politicians stop thorough moments, for example in the referendum

campaigning, and paused to think how they should conduct in future. It is

causing people to reflect on how they conduct themselves. We all take

part in the tribal politics and football style chanting in Prime

Minister's Questions. For some people but goes into a more closed

mind mentality and Jo's example was she would work with others. It has

raised the issue of MP security. It is an important part of our

democratic process. You can go to your MP and have a word and shout

sometimes. Get of what want off your chest. How important is it that is

maintained but balancing it with security? One of the most important

thing in our work democracy is that. People say MPs and out of touch with

the public. MPs are more in touch with the public that they have been

in any time in history because we come back every week to meet the

people and knock doors. Our accessibility on social media and

e-mail and so on. I speak to hundreds of people in my local area

who agree with me, disagree with me and I would hate to see that put at

risk for stop but how does that interaction on social media can

change into something abusive? It has change things. People don't

realise what they are doing online is the equivalent of shouting abuse

in the a room full of people. They wouldn't do that in person but they

happy to do that on a keyboard. Some other takes on a sinister character.

Chris Bryant said on Friday evening he thought perhaps the authorities

in Parliament, the security elements, wasn't being taken

seriously enough. Is that something he would go along with Mike Darragh

measures in place and my experience locally has been supportive.

Sometimes it has been bureaucratic in Westminster particularly the

situation many women MPs have found themselves in. There have been

serious threats. I sat with colleagues a few months ago who were

being threatened with killed or raped because of their gender or

religion. That is not acceptable. It might be said on a Twitter account

on a Facebook account but for some people that can turn into a

dangerous reality. Does this feed into the Ludik garden with which MPs

are currently held? -- low regard. They do seem to be a poison in the

discussion about politicians stop those that need to be challenged now

and addressed? Does that don't think it is the place to politicians.

Anybody who puts themselves out of the public services and people put

themselves into the public sphere, journalists included. I have spoken

to one of my party members, he works in a well-known bakery store in

Cardiff and the abuse they suffer from customer, we have stuff bash

lost something as a society when it is acceptable to shout at people.

For politicians, they have all out from it for themselves and on, that

seems to have been ignored by large parts of the public now. How do you

tried to go about rebuilding that higher regard? In my experience is

the vast majority of MPs are in there for whatever reasons for the

greater good. That the plight of the referendum campaign, many other

aspects of political life. There are issues when it comes down to the

kind of denigration generally of a political class and public services

that you are in it for yourself. Most MPs work long hours, they work

hard at the cost of their family. In the case of Jo with tragic

consequences. To end with, for those of us who didn't know Jo Cox, how do

you think she would like to be remembered?

She would want people to care about the causes she cared for, standing

up for refugees are the poorest in the world, standing up for women in

particular. We should all pay a bit more attention to the horrors that

are happening to humans around this world, not just those on our streets

but those in the Congo, Afghanistan and elsewhere. We are all one

planet. She would want is to engage with those people and support them

instead of building up walls and dividing ourselves. Thank you very

much for coming in today. For the first time in nearly 60

years Wales are taking part But as Chris Coleman's men prepare

for their crucial final group game tomorrow,

how can we make the most Speaking to this programme,

Neville Southall, our most capped player said the team's participation

in Euro 2016 should be seen as a "chance in a million" to invest

in grassroots football. Picked up a little bit of turf out

of his boot has Gareth Bale. Looks like a rugby union kick the

way he has gone back. Stepped to the right,

chest puffed out and strike. Gareth Bale with a moment

of absolute magic. This is how the journey starts

for any footballing star, having a kickabout with

friends on a local pitch. Here, in the shadow of Gareth Bale's

old school in Cardiff, these young players are practising their skills,

keeping fit and having fun. I like playing football

because it is fun. These boys have

everything they need. Somewhere suitable and safe to play

and enthusiastic coaches as well. According to our most capped player,

this is what we need Will it be a variation

on the theme this time? Neville Southall represented

his country 92 times. He now coaches and works with young

people and he believes this is the time to invest further

in grassroots football. We've got a look at this as a one

chance in a million, to change the way we do things in

grassroots football. We need every kid in

school playing football. We need every kid being given

the dream so they can be the next Gareth Bale,

Aaron Ramsey, Ashley Williams, We need to feed them that dream

but then we need to give them the facilities to play on and then

we need to give them a really good At this stage, the boys are really

keen and there's loads of boys who'd like the opportunity,

and girls, who would like the opportunity to play for teams

but unfortunately there's just It is all done by volunteers

and there's not enough people to run enough

teams for the children. Much of the work developing

the sport at a grassroots level is done by the FAW Trust

who told us more people are playing The number of boys playing has

increased by 15% over the past Over the same period, 7% more girls

have taken up the sport. Since 2004, the number

of disabled players has The Trust has now set itself more

ambitious goals but in the meantime it too believes that more

should be done to help support. We're hearing about up to three

figure percentage increases in fees That is a real threat

to grassroots football and grassroots sports so we need to make

sure that we are working together, we are working with national and

local government to make sure those pitches and facilities are

accessible at a reasonable price. It is a really important

area of work for less. This girls football session

in Bangor is another example A big chunk of the organisations

funding, ?1 million a year, comes from the Welsh Government,

who told us it hopes the historic success of Chris Coleman's

team will inspire people across Sports Wales who distribute

the government's sports funding, said significant

investment has been made in Welsh football and the current enthusiasm

is a catalyst for growing the game In the meantime, Welsh fans continue

to make their voices heard in France and across the world due

to the global reach football can provide in a way other

sports simply can't. That is an opportunity we mustn't

ignore according to another former international

following the team. It is so vital we take this

opportunity, not just for sport actually,

but for selling Wales to the world. The profile of Wales,

without a shadow of doubt, will have been elevated to a really

significant level as the That'll be the case if we go out

in the group stage or we continue to the last 16 which I'm

sure we will. We will have already done

some fantastic work. And that work continues as Wales

prepare for another The challenge back home is to make

sure their efforts lead to success Now Wales, along with the rest

of the UK, go to the polls on Thursday for what everyone agrees

is a critical vote But many expat Welsh people

will already have cast their votes. So what's their perspective

on the vote here? Our economics correspondent

Sarah Dickins packed her bags and headed off to Benidorm

to find out. The bright lights and the glitz

of the part of Benidorm that has been a magnet to Welsh

tourists for decades. But as well as holiday-makers

it has attracted many others who have left the Welsh

homeland and now live permanently They are certainly talking about

the EU referendum just days away. For Welsh expats doing business

here in the centre of Benidorm it is about whose economic

forecasts do you believe? Do you vote Remain so things stay

broadly as now you hope, or do you vote Leave in the belief that trade,

free trade, wins the day? 1.3 million UK citizens live

in other EU countries. and more than 170,000

live in France. Here in Spain, many of the Welsh

expats concerns centre around how the vote could

affect their lifestyles. Whether the pensions would still go

up with inflation and if they'd still get free health care

if the UK were to leave the EU. Will be relationship between the two

nations change after the referendum? I am going to vote that we stay

in on selfish reasons. Now I'm living in Spain

you don't know, If you were living in Wales still,

what do you think you'd be voting? I would definitely vote to come out

so we can have an autonomous Great Britain again

because that is what it was in A very different world from the buzz

of Benidorm, more than 40 British expats play bowls here four times

a week and five of them are Welsh. Those who have lived in Spain

for fewer than 15 years have a vote. The more you think into it the more

I feel we need to stay. Is it simply for your pocket it is

better to stay? It is better for my

pocket but I think for I think people are basing it all

on people coming into the country I don't think it is

going to be that bad. I think it is time that Britain took

back its decision-making. The EU seems to be taking over too

much of our justice system. What about those working in Spain

and the next generation of Howard Westcott from

Neath is not confident if we were to leave the EU,

countries would rush to sign trade The Brexit argument

is that UK is so important to the Spanish economy

in lots of different ways they would have to sign a deal

that is similar But that is typical

British mentality. These young students

here are the next generation This generation don't look at things

in terms of countries and whatever, they look

at it in terms of where The polls suggest the result

is finely balanced. While most Welsh expats

across Europe will have voted by now, back home there are many

who still haven't Well, joining me now to talk

about the events of an awful week and throw forwards to Thursday's

crucial vote is Nick Servini. Thanks for coming in. We heard a

little bit about it there earlier. Considering what happened last week,

the death of Jo Cox, can we expect the last few days of campaigning to

be a little bit different? A little bit more respectful? I agree. I

don't think you can have an event like that and not have an impact. We

will have the recall of Parliament tomorrow and we will see the huge

example of MPs unifying together because from their perspective, they

would think an attack on one MP is an attack on all of them. That is

bound to permeate into the debates for the rest of the week. The

individual circumstances in this horrifying incident in Yorkshire is

subject to judicial process. It has backed the debates about the tone of

public life. It has been reflected in comments this morning. Peter Hain

has accused the leave side and the Retallick on immigration as

contributing to this aggressive debates and the tone of the debate.

-- Retallick. Michael Gove told Andrew Marr this morning he is not

against immigration, he wants control of immigration and

admittedly in sensitive circumstances, made the case for

rigorous debate as part of freedom of speech. I don't suppose it is an

easy answer. Maybe the media as part of the problem here, focusing on the

confrontational element of politics and certainly social media as you

touched on and many others have as well, has a major role in what has

happened. Tomorrow, we know MPs will be in Westminster so maybe

campaigning won't be at full throttle. Tuesday and Wednesday, the

last two days of campaigning, what can we expect? A frenetic 48 hours.

An extraordinary state of affairs. What has happened is the momentum

has come to a huge pause as a result of what has happened. I was out with

the Leave campaign in Caerphilly on Thursday morning before the

seriousness of the situation became camp Aaron -- a balance. There was a

sense of momentum from the Leave side. I spoke to Chris Grayling and

said, what do you need to do now in the last week of campaigning? He

said, stop people having second thoughts. You could think the past

couple of days people haven't had the bombardment that we are used to

and maybe they have been stewing over things and having those second

thoughts. The counter view is towards the tail end of last week I

spoke to another senior Welsh politicians on the Remain side,

really sceptical about their chances. They have been overwhelmed

at times by the opposition that is out there, and this final sort of

Fleury we will have now who is to say the leave can pick up the

momentum where they left off? Duke get the sense that is a body of

voters out there and decided still who are still waiting for this

golden fact that will say, that is the one. That make my mind up. It

possibly isn't out there. Let's break the bad news to them, there is

no single bit of information that'll make it abundantly clear. We're

talking about the future, we are talking about predictions of what

can happen. As a result that perfect fact doesn't exist and it is what

people are craving for. What they are not going in for is the single

fact but the single area. The Remain side, they say you can go around the

houses on sovereignty EU regulations, even immigration but

when it comes down to it people vote on the state of their mortgages,

jobs, economic security. On the Leave side, they are focusing on the

one area birth control. This fundamental belief that they see

people crave and want overall control of their destiny including

borders, that is where immigration comes in. It is an appealing

message. This is come down to something as simple as those who

back Remain via more towards the economic sector and those who back

Leave, theatre mods immigration. Is that overly simplistic as Mike

possibly better think it is an accurate area. We've got all these

undecideds. Both sides are saying at least a fifth still haven't made up

their mind. On the Remain side they think it is up to a third. Most of

those undecideds are they say adding the South Wales Valleys. I would

expect in that final flurry that is where a lot of the concentration of

the campaigning will take place. Thank you very much like coming in

today. Don't forget, you follow

all the latest on Twitter. But for now that's all from me,

time to go back to Andrew. So, we're entering the final stage

of this referendum campaign and it's What do the campaigns have

left up their sleeves, and what will be the impact

of the papers and Parliament is recalled tomorrow to

pay tribute to Jo Cox. That will influence the campaign and take our

eyes away from it. We have David Cameron tonight on question Time on

BBC One and the big debate from Wembley on BBC One on Tuesday night.

How will the final couple of days be? What should we be looking for?

It will be more muted than otherwise had it not been for the killing of

Jo Cox. I think there is no appetite on either side to return to some of

the vociferous nurse of the past month or two. Muted but also quite

settled -- the vociferous nature. The campaign is decided in that we

know what the issues are but the ultimate question is do you dislike

immigration more than you like economic calm and that is the test

on Thursday. What impresses me about the Wembley Arena debate on Tuesday

is who Remain have chosen as their three debaters. 2-mac of them are

clearly designed to pitch to Labour voters, Sadiq Khan... We can see

them on the screen. Vadis O'Grady and Sadiq Khan are clearly designed

to appeal to the Labour voters -- Frances O'Grady. Even Ruth Davidson

is a centrist conservative and perhaps better to appeal to Scottish

Labour Party voters. You look on the Leave side, Boris Johnson, and Ryan

Ledson -- Andrea Leadsom. Looking at that, which is the stronger team? I

think the Leave team, if that does not sound too partisan, in terms of

dynamism and vitality of personality. There may be some

surprises, remaining Ake might put some fresh faces but there are no

fresh arguments. There is only now a semantic problem. This item is now

anti-uncontrolled immigration and that is an important factor, this is

not about uncertainty in an absolute sense because there is uncertainty

on both sides. It has now got the point where it is a question of who

gets the best formulation. Anything can happen in a big debate,

particularly one with 6000 people being there. If I was a Remain

strategist, I would be worried that team is a bit underpowered for this

big event. I would agree. We might all know Frances O'Grady but I'm not

sure anybody us in the country might unless you are a team of of the TUC.

Leave a gone with the same team that they thought did well in the eye

debate -- in the ITV debate. The main have gone with three different

characters. It suggests that they have some new tactics. The last time

when we saw Amber Rudd exec are going viciously for Boris Johnson,

this one is all about getting out your base vote. People know the

arguments, even if you're not been tuning into it has been flooding in

subconsciously. It is about motivating your supporters to go to

the polls will stop one thing on the Remain choice, Ruth Davidson. We set

up a debate of our own, a cab that goes round and interviews people,

and we wanted, Ruth Davidson was put up and we could not get a single

person in the Leave campaign to debate her. Because they were

frightened of her? Yes. She is exceptionally good and smart, when

it comes to those one-liners, and if she can pull one off against

somebody like Boris Johnson, that could do... But there could be a

danger. Let me put it diplomatically, she is not Boris

Johnson's biggest fan and Boris Johnson already got attacked by

Amber Rudd in the ITV debate. If we go down that road again, it could

rebound on them. You could argue that what Amber Rudd got wrong was

the tone with which she attacked Boris Johnson and a more skilful

politician, like Ruth Davidson, could pull off the same line but

deliver it in a better way. The point about scripting is

interesting. I was talking to somebody in number ten a couple of

days ago who were saying that when you briefed politicians you usually

have to give them the killer line on the opponent but with Ruth Davidson

you have to do nothing. She is across all the details and she can

come up with a venomous whip at the end of a sentence. One thing also

very clear from this Remain team is that they are worried about Labour

voters who will be key to this and if they are so angry about scare

tactics and immigration, they will bring victory to the Leave campaign

and that is what people are worried about. This is an identity crisis

for the Labour Party, even more than the Conservative Party. David

Cameron is on a Question Time special tonight. Michael Gove did

one last week. Life programmes with an audience are always tricky but

David Cameron knows how to do these things. This is his forte, the

medium of his choice which is precisely why it is happening. What

will be most interesting tonight is his tone he chooses. The post Jo Cox

tragedy age of trying to be nicer to each other, personally I don't think

George Osborne succeeded this morning. He can't really do

uplifting, happy politics. Even Paddy Ashdown fell into the trap!

Two whole years of British politics we have spent campaigning and we

haven't stopped, the Scottish referendum into the general

election. And the Prime Minister is exhausting. Negative campaigning

works. If the PM does the uplifting stuff, that might work better than

the scare stories. There is a lot of talk about politicians attacking

each other but there is a middle ground about how they are attacking

the electorate. The idea of terrifying pages into thinking that

the triple lock on their pensions will have to be withdrawn, the

sacred promise that Cameron made, if they vote the wrong way, that was

disgusting. There is a lot of attempt to put the fear of God up

the electorate which has been extremely unattractive. We have had

newspaper endorsements, the editorials have come out as usual

the Sunday before an important election. The main have the Mail on

Sunday, the Observer, the mirror, the people. Leave have the sun on

Sunday, the Sunday Telegraph, the Sunday Times and the Sunday express.

It is fashionable to say that editorials don't matter but

politicians still crave for them to come down on their side. They must

have some importance. But if we are heading to a very close result,

51-49, even a minimal impact it a significant impact. They matter in

this referendum but what is interesting is the way that some

newspaper houses have split with the times being pro-leave, the Daily

Mail wanting to leave but the Mail on Sunday wanting to remain will

stop a lot of people will be cynical and say that these are newspaper

proprietors covering their bets. I think it is a good reflection on the

industry and the editors being given their head to decide a large

existential question for the country. When we go into the vote on

Friday morning, on Thursday morning, where will we be? Will we know the

result? As it was in 1975. Or will it be like the general election last

year when even those who thought they knew the result didn't? I think

it will be a very long night and we might not know the result until the

same time on Friday morning. Polls are polls, snapshots, maybe there

are shy people on both sides. The key is getting your vote out. I

genuinely have no idea which way it will go. Whichever campaign can put

more of their people through the polling station wins. What I'm not

clever about, does Remain continue to put about the terrible economic

consequences if we leave from their point of view? And does Leave carry

on about immigration? Are we going to get more of the same with maybe a

different tone after what has happened but fundamentally the same

things. Those are the headlines but there are subtle argument and I wish

they were getting more attention. I wish the Leave campaign were

stressing more the uncertainty economically of the EU. It may be

too late. It has been said but it is not a headline. We have them

questions about the risks of remaining. But the media attention

has been on the risks. You would expect the change proposition to be

the one that embodies the risk. The EU is a volatile and some would say

failing project. I understand that. That is your point of view. How will

we vote? To stay in by a margin of 55-45. That would be healthy. I

think it will be Leave by a squeak. Remain. We will bring them back next

week to see if they are right. The Daily Politics will be

back at noon tomorrow, and the Sunday Politics will be back

for a special extended show to take in all the news following the result

of the EU referendum. Remember, if it's Sunday,

it's the Sunday Politics. Finding out this story

matches any pride I had Marking the centenary of the Somme

through personal stories brings new focus

to what happened there. It puts the human element

into war, really.